Post by: Toaster on March 23, 2013, 01:52:35 pm
Standard Rules:
1. All votes must be in red. Unvoting before voting again is not required, but appreciated. You may vote for No Lynch. In case of a tie, no one will be lynched. Do not vote inside of spoiler tags- such votes will not be counted.
2. Days are 72 hours while Nights are 24 hours. Neither time span includes weekends, though I may end weekend-spanning nights after 24 hours if all night actions are in. Unless otherwise stated, days and nights end at 11 PM EST.
3. Never edit your posts for any reason, including typos.
4. Do not PM other players. Players with private chat access will be given a topic on QuickTopic where they may post freely.
5. Never quote any PM from the mod. You may give a general summary (for example, a roleclaim), but do not quote directly.
6. Please put my name in bold if you would like to get my attention.
7. You may ask for an extension or shorten by putting the respective word in bold. Extensions require 33% of players to agree minus any players opposing, and are for 24 hours. Shortens require at least 51% of players to agree, and will end the day as soon as I can process the day end.
8. Dead players may post one “bah post” to comment on their death, but it may not contain any relevant game information. After that, dead men tell no tales, so please do not post.
9. Please make an effort to post at least once daily. If you do not post for 36 hours, you will be prodded. If I don’t hear from you within 24 more hours, you will be replaced. If you think someone needs a prod, please bring it to my attention- I can’t guarantee I will notice everyone who is not posting.
10. Never underestimate your importance, and always play to win!
Game specific rules:
1. When the game goes into setup, I will lock the thread and send out your alignment. Please reply to that with your selection of class from the list below. If you do not reply in 24 hours, it will default to random.
2. At game start, you will receive a random common item, unless your class dictates otherwise.
3. There is a pool of public items. This pool starts out containing six random items, at least two of which are guaranteed to be uncommon or better. When a player dies, their items will go into this pool. At day start, a random common item will be removed from the pool. The contents of this pool are not known, but I will post a count of the items at day start.
4. During the day, you will automatically quest for an item, and you will receive it at the end of the day after the lynch. You may PM me during the day and opt to grab an item from the public item pool instead. Certain classes have other choices they can make instead. Note that if the pool is empty when your turn comes to check it, you get nothing!
5. The odds for receiving an item are as follows: 65% common, 25% uncommon, 9% rare, 1% artifact. Rarer items tend to have a greater effect.
6. You may discard one item each night if you wish. This effect happens at the end of the night and does not count as your night action. The item goes into the public pool.
7. Currently, there is no sharing or trading of items, even among mafia teams.
Class list:
Spoiler: Classes (click to show/hide)
Game related information and item list (https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0AvFsNFGsoA1KdGZsTVZfY3VmX0w3OVhoRk5PaEl5NVE&hl=en&authkey=CI-PoZUM). Spoiler alert- not needed to play game. I will tell you what your items do- there is no identification.
Roguelike Mafia Discussion Thread (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=80808.0)
Roguelike Mafia 1 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=78265.0)
Roguelike Mafia 2 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=88433.0)
Roguelike Mafia 3 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=91413.0)
Roguelike Mafia 4 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=106934.0)
Roguelike Mafia 5 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=113334.0)
Players:
1.
2.
3.
4.
5. Hapah
6.
7.
8.
9.
10.
11.
12.
13.
Replacement Queue:
Post by: The Soldier on March 23, 2013, 02:01:11 pm
Post by: notquitethere on March 23, 2013, 02:03:59 pm
Post by: Vector on March 23, 2013, 02:07:35 pm
Post by: Captain Ford on March 23, 2013, 02:15:02 pm
Post by: Hapah on March 23, 2013, 02:25:34 pm
Post by: Urist Imiknorris on March 23, 2013, 02:34:06 pm
Post by: Teneb on March 23, 2013, 04:49:37 pm
Post by: zombie urist on March 23, 2013, 05:10:42 pm
Post by: Zrk2 on March 23, 2013, 07:21:47 pm
Post by: Leafsnail on March 23, 2013, 07:32:44 pm
Post by: Toaster on March 23, 2013, 08:31:06 pm
Replacement List
No problem, but I am curious- why do you always sign up to replace? It's certainly a nice thing, but why not start in?
Post by: zombie urist on March 23, 2013, 08:48:32 pm
1. I'm busy when games start. (for some reason)
2. I hate seeing game balance get messed up by missing players.
3. Skip RVS
4. Less decisions for me (role, etc) <- this doesn't always happen.
Post by: Toaster on March 23, 2013, 08:50:11 pm
Post by: Imperial Guardsman on March 23, 2013, 08:58:28 pm
Post by: Tiruin on March 23, 2013, 10:13:43 pm
SO In!
Post by: zombie urist on March 23, 2013, 10:20:28 pm
In fact its basically completely empty. :P
Fair enough. I figured dislike of RVS was on there. Again, I appreciate having a ready replacement!Yeyy! :D
Post by: Toaster on March 23, 2013, 11:29:17 pm
IN.
Have you played Mafia before? I've no problem with a new player, but if you're completely new, reading a Beginner game or two wouldn't hurt.
Post by: Tiruin on March 24, 2013, 01:27:15 am
But yes, forum mafia is different from IRL mafia. Do you know the basics, IG?
Post by: Imperial Guardsman on March 24, 2013, 08:32:58 am
Post by: alamoes on March 24, 2013, 08:57:59 am
Post by: Teneb on March 24, 2013, 09:31:32 am
Post by: Imperial Guardsman on March 24, 2013, 09:35:16 am
Where did all these newbies come from? Where were they when I needed replacements?Karauva
Post by: lordnincompoop on March 24, 2013, 11:07:58 am
yes, i read up on a lot of guides beforehand
You may have read the guides, and they may even have been the guides on this forum, but I recommend you to at least skim through a game anyway - there's a lot left unsaid, and not being familiar with the conventions of the Mafia playstyle here is (sadly) often misinterpreted as scumminess.
Post by: Toaster on March 24, 2013, 01:01:43 pm
You may have read the guides, and they may even have been the guides on this forum, but I recommend you to at least skim through a game anyway - there's a lot left unsaid, and not being familiar with the conventions of the Mafia playstyle here is (sadly) often misinterpreted as scumminess.
What he said. Also, missed your in?
Post by: ToonyMan on March 24, 2013, 01:11:59 pm
Fair enough. I figured dislike of RVS was on there. Again, I appreciate having a ready replacement!Has Zombie Urist ever replaced in for Urist Imik? His username is fitting.
Post by: Urist Imiknorris on March 24, 2013, 01:14:15 pm
Post by: Imperial Guardsman on March 24, 2013, 01:19:30 pm
Post by: Zrk2 on March 24, 2013, 01:22:20 pm
Where did all these newbies come from? Where were they when I needed replacements?
I don't like replacing in.
Post by: zombie urist on March 24, 2013, 01:27:14 pm
Paranormal 22.Fair enough. I figured dislike of RVS was on there. Again, I appreciate having a ready replacement!Has Zombie Urist ever replaced in for Urist Imik? His username is fitting.
Post by: Imperial Guardsman on March 24, 2013, 01:33:44 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Captain Ford on March 24, 2013, 02:20:56 pm
if townie, dont act suspicious, dont threaten anyone ( even jokingly ) and if you are a power role ( cop, doctor ) definately dont claim it. if scum, act normal, and then shoot up all of the townies, townies win when scum die, and scum win when they have more players than town ( not an offical win, but it might as well be )Sounds like you've got the rules and basic concept down.
A lot of the board's concerns about new players centers around the fact that there's a bit of an established culture and set of expected behaviors. Deviations from those behaviors tend to be called out as scummy, even if there's no logical connection. It's a handicap that extends from the fact that we don't know you well enough to judge you on your own merits.
I'm not trying to discourage you from joining, I'm just letting you know what you might be up against so you don't get surprised.
Post by: Toaster on March 24, 2013, 02:21:57 pm
Post by: Captain Ford on March 24, 2013, 02:23:15 pm
Edit: I could totally have edited that in to my last post instead of posting again. I always forget I can edit when I'm not in a game.
Post by: alamoes on March 24, 2013, 02:27:35 pm
Post by: Imperial Guardsman on March 24, 2013, 02:32:35 pm
i have done a mafia before, as a citizen
i made it to near end, but i called out a mafioso
was not believed, someone else got lynched
guess who died that night
So, when are we starting?
Post by: Teneb on March 24, 2013, 02:47:15 pm
Post by: Imperial Guardsman on March 24, 2013, 02:49:58 pm
say something remotely suspicious ZOMG WTF HES MAFIA LYNCH HIM ZOMG DO IT NOW
Post by: Freshmaniscoolman on March 24, 2013, 04:22:35 pm
Post by: Toaster on March 24, 2013, 04:23:01 pm
I'll probably kick this off late on Monday, barring any major objections.
Post by: Imperial Guardsman on March 24, 2013, 04:26:54 pm
Post by: Freshmaniscoolman on March 24, 2013, 04:27:52 pm
Post by: Parsely on March 24, 2013, 04:28:57 pm
Post by: Toaster on March 24, 2013, 04:32:16 pm
Post by: Imperial Guardsman on March 24, 2013, 04:36:32 pm
i usually get off at 8, 11 on weekends due to my weird bodily clock thingy
BUT
Post by: Toaster on March 24, 2013, 09:04:04 pm
Post by: Zrk2 on March 24, 2013, 09:36:34 pm
Post by: borno on March 25, 2013, 01:19:17 am
Post by: Freshmaniscoolman on March 25, 2013, 04:35:47 am
Post by: Tiruin on March 25, 2013, 04:54:20 am
This game will start whenever the orange appliance wishes it to start. Clam down.
Edit: Should be calm but leaving it there for posterity. XD
Post by: notquitethere on March 25, 2013, 05:57:38 am
Post by: Imperial Guardsman on March 25, 2013, 12:47:05 pm
DE ARIMASU!!
Post by: Vector on March 25, 2013, 12:48:03 pm
Post by: notquitethere on March 25, 2013, 12:50:17 pm
Post by: Imperial Guardsman on March 25, 2013, 12:59:42 pm
De arimasu means that is it in japanese.
De arimasu.
also, notquitethere, you were pretty quick to judge me, were you not?
you MAY think you caught scum, but you, sir, are
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: notquitethere on March 25, 2013, 01:09:39 pm
Post by: Imperial Guardsman on March 25, 2013, 01:20:18 pm
tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Community/DwarfFortress (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Community/DwarfFortress)
Post by: Captain Ford on March 25, 2013, 01:21:41 pm
De arimasu means "that is it" in japanese.Fixed.
Post by: Hapah on March 25, 2013, 01:21:54 pm
The man is probably at work, lol. Relax.
Besides, game won't "really" start right away, since everyone will have to mail in their role choices once they know their alignment.
Post by: Imperial Guardsman on March 25, 2013, 01:27:15 pm
Post by: zombie urist on March 25, 2013, 01:40:08 pm
Post by: Vector on March 25, 2013, 01:43:58 pm
Moushi wake gozaimasen, aru >:(
Post by: Toaster on March 25, 2013, 02:29:45 pm
13 people is a good number, though- I'll start designing the setup now. Last chance for more players to join.
Post by: Vector on March 25, 2013, 02:41:40 pm
>_<
Post by: notquitethere on March 25, 2013, 02:47:36 pm
Post by: Imperial Guardsman on March 25, 2013, 02:50:45 pm
Post by: notquitethere on March 25, 2013, 03:03:10 pm
Post by: Teneb on March 25, 2013, 03:10:23 pm
I'm not quite there: 33% of nightkills are redirected.I'd say we need a game where people get abilities related to their name, but some would end up being too obvious.
Post by: Vector on March 25, 2013, 03:11:12 pm
Unfortunately, I'm pretty sure that I'd get autolynched because everyone knows that I'm always scum.
Post by: Tiruin on March 25, 2013, 03:14:53 pm
I'm always scum.Meh. I know your pain XD
Try being labelled that and your only RVS questions are "Are you scum?" Or "Are you scum nao????"
Makes me laugh and cry at the same time...
MY standard issue flak armor can take the force of a barrage from a modern day LMG! De arimasu!Only in certain places.
I'll be there to shank you first where you least expect it boy. :I
I suspect you mean Tiruin or Hapah, unless you're agreeing with me that shankings are in store de gozaimasu.I was with Hapah somewhere and associated with him in somewhat?
Time to bus.
Post by: Imperial Guardsman on March 25, 2013, 03:16:21 pm
Post by: Freshmaniscoolman on March 25, 2013, 03:35:06 pm
Post by: Captain Ford on March 25, 2013, 03:35:30 pm
Post by: Teneb on March 25, 2013, 03:36:02 pm
Heehee, there was B12 Mafia that got run a few times...Weren't the B12 Mafia roles related to the meta of the players, instead of the names themselves?
Unfortunately, I'm pretty sure that I'd get autolynched because everyone knows that I'm always scum.
Post by: Freshmaniscoolman on March 25, 2013, 03:36:22 pm
Post by: Imperial Guardsman on March 25, 2013, 03:39:31 pm
RESIST
G.I.F.T
IMPULSE
FRESHMANISCOOLMAN
RAGE
INDUCING
POST
Post by: Freshmaniscoolman on March 25, 2013, 03:41:12 pm
Post by: Hapah on March 25, 2013, 03:43:37 pm
Post by: Tiruin on March 25, 2013, 03:44:08 pm
Yes it was.Heehee, there was B12 Mafia that got run a few times...Weren't the B12 Mafia roles related to the meta of the players, instead of the names themselves?
Unfortunately, I'm pretty sure that I'd get autolynched because everyone knows that I'm always scum.
Also, stop spam. If you've no post related to the game.
Stop. Now.
Or I'm killing the first one of you two regardless of my alignment.
PPE: OH THANK YOU HAPAH
Post by: Urist Imiknorris on March 25, 2013, 03:46:07 pm
Post by: Imperial Guardsman on March 25, 2013, 03:46:33 pm
Im an aspie, so my social skills arent top notch.
Logical/strategic/detective skills on the other hand...
De arimasuuuuuuuuu. D:
Urist. Tiruin.
no wonder this thing didnt send. this is a reply to Hapah, btw
Post by: Toaster on March 25, 2013, 03:52:03 pm
Im an aspie, so my social skills arent top notch.
What is it about Mafia that attracts AS people? For a game that relies heavily on reading emotions and judging intent, there are a lot of people with a supposed disadvantage in that playing it. Maybe it's more that B12/DF itself attracts AS people and many find their way here.
But that sounds like a conversation for another thread, because...
Signups closed! I'm locking this thread and rolling/sending out alignments now. Please reply with your choice of class within 24 hours. Once all responses are in, the game will start for real.
Post by: Toaster on March 25, 2013, 10:26:46 pm
That changed when Gimdal Braineater became lead priest.
His name was no jest. Zodank had given him a vision of glorious madness, veil-piercing clarity of purpose. To ascend to new heights, he and his fellow priests must consume the minds of the sane- only then would they be allowed to partake of the most holy rites of Zodank. They started with the most recent members of the cult. They then went on a mighty new recruitment drive, with all members going straight to the dining room. When this proved insufficient, they turned to harassment and intimidation, bullying people until they joined. Still they needed more.
The kidnapping started with street people, those who wouldn’t be missed. Soon it was unsafe to walk the streets of the city at night. A pair of guardsmen, hearing the cries of another victim, tracked the attackers back to the Cloisters. Upon watching, they were horrified at how the victim had her skull cracked open and her very brain ripped from her head.
They returned the next day with the king’s army, and all were put to the sword. The building was torched, and the entrances to the cellars blocked. Gimdal himself was hung on a pole outside the building, and left to serve as a warning. All thought the nightmare was over.
Still, though, the area remained unsafe. Reports of terrifying screams, echoes of the victims, were reported in the vicinity. People who ventured near returned traumatized, telling stories of horrors still remaining below. It seemed contained to the area, though, until the son of the army captain who slew Gimdal disappeared from his room. The mark of Zodank was emblazoned on his wall.
The king put out a call for a party of adventurers to explore the area fully and ensure all threats were disposed of. The reward is a pile of gold, plus any plunder still remaining in the cellars below, where the source of the terror is rumored to be. You have signed up for this adventure, whether for noble purpose or for personal gain. But now, you are in the cellars, and the voices are whispering around you. Someone... or some few... are working against you. They lurk within your group, and are working toward your downfall. You must root them out before you are all destroyed.
Can you survive the Cloister of Zodank, God of Madness?
Day 1 has begun!
Day 1 will last until Thursday, 3/28 at 11 PM EST.
There are six items in the public pool.
Post by: Captain Ford on March 25, 2013, 10:40:45 pm
...
freshmaniscoolman: Have you eaten any brains lately?
Urist Imiknorris: Why do you hate yourself?
Tiruin: Post something, please.
Vector: *taps nose* Bip! I have voted you. With my voting rock. Of votingness.
Post by: Vector on March 25, 2013, 10:49:55 pm
Howdy, Ford. You've got an awful lot of very content-light questions there. Why is that?
ImperialGuardsman: How are you going to take care of the opposition?
notquitethere, have you learned anything new about mafia recently? What was it? How will you approach this game differently than you've been approaching BMs?
Post by: Vector on March 25, 2013, 10:51:36 pm
Post by: Captain Ford on March 25, 2013, 10:52:54 pm
Unvote. The rock giveth, the rock taketh away.
*throws rock at Zrk2* "Now you!"
Post by: Teneb on March 25, 2013, 10:56:36 pm
Tiruin: Are you
notquitethere: Would you rather be a sk or an arsonist?
Post by: Leafsnail on March 25, 2013, 11:00:49 pm
Post by: Tiruin on March 25, 2013, 11:16:29 pm
Tiruin: Are youWhy yes, yes I am.scumtown?
Why are you asking me this?
Tiruin: Post something, please.Dude, stop using other games to correlate with me in other games please :/
*Tiruin points at a nearby pole. "Post."
Also...your first post was a light-hearted one because "going to bed soon"?
Hey, Toasty, quick question--what's the "six items in the public pool" thing about?You don't know this? O_o Guess you missed something?
Quote from: Rules, somewhat changed since the past Roguelikes as it used to contain FOUR items :D
3. There is a pool of public items. This pool starts out containing six random items, at least two of which are guaranteed to be uncommon or better. When a player dies, their items will go into this pool. At day start, a random common item will be removed from the pool. The contents of this pool are not known, but I will post a count of the items at day start.
Anywhoo, question below for you~!
Ford: See above. Also...how is UI's question making sense? Never saw any of his posts relating to self-hatred...
IG: Tiruin thwaps the Guardsman with a branch.
Say you're a scum Paladin. What would you do with your inspect during the first day - and how would you have it aid you in the later time?
Leafsnail: In a scenario when you've a Scroll of Ill Will - when would you it, what factors would you use it under and will there be any other factors compelling you to use it at the time given?
Freshmaniscoolman: Mind if I shorten your name to "Fresh" for easier typing?
Let's say you've a protect - under what circumstances are you going to pick your target, and why?
Vector: Hello noble thief of words - acting as this class hypothetically (and as town too, in that scenario), would you go along with your natural proclivities, and if so, what are your reasons for pickpocketing?
The Soldier: Paralysis or Protection? What's your poison? Also, depending on which you pick, what or when would you use said status effect on a person and why, in a scum scenario?
Post by: Vector on March 25, 2013, 11:17:52 pm
Post by: Tiruin on March 25, 2013, 11:20:26 pm
Post by: Vector on March 25, 2013, 11:35:50 pm
Post by: Tiruin on March 26, 2013, 12:04:01 am
Zrk2: Are you going to actively post now? Also, wielding a roleblock, do you think that alignment would factor in on who or when you'd use that - regardless of the fact that "if scum: know who's town"?
Post by: The Soldier on March 26, 2013, 12:27:42 am
Answers:
Tiruin: As town, I'd prefer paralysis to lock down scum without needing to guess their target. As scum, I'd like a protect unless there's a claimed killing or investigating role to block.
Deathsword: I learned that getting the flu really, really sucks. Also, that I can look very town.
Questions:
alamoes: How much mafia experience do you have? Do you feel confident about your chances of winning?
freshmaniscoolman: What item would you be most worried about scum having?
Hapah: What's the most dangerous third party, and what would you do to stop them?
Post by: notquitethere on March 26, 2013, 04:23:19 am
"Th-they d-don't expect us to really go down there do they? It looks awfully unsanitary."
DS
Those roles aren't really relevant to this game mode given that we get our powers from items, but I'll humour you. Arsonists have a more fun power, worth the risk of being night-killed before you get a chance to ignite: I prefer more interesting, if uncertain, roles (like changeling and all the different kinds of goo).
Question: if you were town would you be more concerned about scum or third parties?
Vector
Oh I have learned so much from all the games I've played including the BMs. Before I guess I kind of assumed that I didn't have to try to look non-scummy when I was playing town, but now I see that a lot of the game is about showing to others why they should trust you. I guess that's what I'm trying to take forward with my gameplay.
Question: is your avatar a cake or a hat? It looks delicious. More seriously, what is the major difference between a scum-tell and newb-flailing? Are they easily distinguished?
Freshmaniscoolman
How would you characterise your scum hunting style?
Tiruin and Ford
I always play with you guys :D, how much do you foresee relying upon your knowledge of the meta of your fellow players?
Post by: Tiruin on March 26, 2013, 05:10:50 am
Tiruin and Ford"Is that nobody can be trusted unless they can be trusted. Also, bring a tissue."
I always play with you guys :D, how much do you foresee relying upon your knowledge of the meta of your fellow players?
Which means no. While meta may be a persuasive factor, it depends when and where to use it. Situations like a causative basis would matter, perhaps. It all depends (but using meta solely as a case? Nup.)
Spoiler: OOC (click to show/hide)
VectorIt's a masterfully done cake. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=42204.msg4116848;topicseen#msg4116848) Really nice looking ^^
Question: is your avatar a cake or a hat?
Also, why're you asking about meta and all? How would that help you?
Post by: Imperial Guardsman on March 26, 2013, 06:18:09 am
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Urist Imiknorris on March 26, 2013, 06:34:47 am
Urist Imiknorris: Why do you hate yourself?Because I'm too damn lazy for my own good.
Imperial Guardsman: Did you know that going out of your way to not look scummy is itself scummy?
Tiruin:
So you admit you're scum! I have you now!Tiruin: Are youWhy yes, yes I am.scumtown?
NQT:
Those roles aren't really relevant to this game mode given that we get our powers from items, but I'll humour you. Arsonists have a more fun power, worth the risk of being night-killed before you get a chance to ignite: I prefer more interesting, if uncertain, roles (like changeling and all the different kinds of goo).Ah, a fellow goo-lover.
Quote
VectorWhich is more important: Showing how your target is scummy or showing how you're not?
Oh I have learned so much from all the games I've played including the BMs. Before I guess I kind of assumed that I didn't have to try to look non-scummy when I was playing town, but now I see that a lot of the game is about showing to others why they should trust you. I guess that's what I'm trying to take forward with my gameplay.
Post by: Freshmaniscoolman on March 26, 2013, 06:56:47 am
...
freshmaniscoolman: Have you eaten any brains lately?
No.Freshmaniscoolman
How would you characterise your scum hunting style?
Pressure. :)
freshmaniscoolman: What item would you be most worried about scum having?
Any dangerous item. :)
Freshmaniscoolman: Mind if I shorten your name to "Fresh" for easier typing?
Let's say you've a protect - under what circumstances are you going to pick your target, and why?
I don't understand the question.
Post by: Urist Imiknorris on March 26, 2013, 06:59:22 am
Post by: Freshmaniscoolman on March 26, 2013, 07:00:05 am
Post by: Tiruin on March 26, 2013, 07:15:58 am
« Last Edit: Today at 06:59:20 am by Freshmaniscoolman »
Oh hell no.
You do not edit your posts in this board.
Also, nice style of... answering questions. I guess.
What I mean is that if you had a protect-type item, and then those questions attached to it.
Quote
Ahahahahahahaa, no.
freshmaniscoolman: What item would you be most worried about scum having?
Any dangerous item. :)
I'm holding a staff of protect. LET ME HIT YOU ON THE HEAD WITH IT.
Also, how would you use pressure, and in what way are you giving it as your first post contains nothing but answers...and a really bad edit.
Seriously. Specify.
Post by: notquitethere on March 26, 2013, 07:20:49 am
"Is that nobody can be trusted unless they can be trusted. Also, bring a tissue."That sounds reasonable.
Which means no. While meta may be a persuasive factor, it depends when and where to use it. Situations like a causative basis would matter, perhaps. It all depends (but using meta solely as a case? Nup.)
Spoiler: OOC (click to show/hide)
Quote
Also, why're you asking about meta and all? How would that help you?The ideal for RVS questions is to lay down traps to catch scum later. If someone answers to the questions in one way, they can be tripped up if they then later act in a contrary way. For instance, if you later used meta as the sole basis for a case, then we'd be able to call you out even more for it. There are lots of things I could have asked you and will yet ask you, but 'meta' seemed a good topic given that we are both coming to have a good idea of how the other person plays.
Imperial Guardsman
I can understand your enthusiasm; never let the grumpy guts get you down. Let's say you had an item that allowed you to Inspect the alignment of another player. Let's say there's two players you have in mind: one, you think is town and you'd like to be able to trust; the other, you think is more likely to be scum. Who would you use the inspect on?
Urist Imiknorris
Ah, a fellow goo-lover.All hail the Glorious Goo!
Quote
Which is more important: Showing how your target is scummy or showing how you're not?Showing how your target is scummy is more important by far. If you don't have a good case against someone else, you don't really have a good case in your favour. The other town folk will always think, 'If not him, then who?' To be honest, I think showing how you're not scummy is best done by not being scummy and allowing the town to see this for themselves. If you try to shove your town-alignment down everyone's throat, they'll be more likely to push back and think you're scum regardless.
Incidentally, I know this is the RVS, but you do realise that you're the third person to 'randomly' vote me (with none of them unvoting). How many votes would I need on me in the RVS before I start throwing around accusations of bandwagoning?
Fresh
do you think it's better to pressure just one target at a time, or pursue multiple target simultaneously?
Post by: Freshmaniscoolman on March 26, 2013, 08:06:10 am
do you think it's better to pressure just one target at a time, or pursue multiple target simultaneously?
One target at a time
Also, how would you use pressure, and in what way are you giving it as your first post contains nothing but answers...and a really bad edit.
Answer is above. And, nothing is really being said to me but questions, so I have nothing to input.
What item would you be most worried about scum having?
Why do you care about that? Perhaps maybe you're asking me to get that specific item and worry me.
Post by: notquitethere on March 26, 2013, 08:37:56 am
The Soldier, given the list of possible player classes (thief, archaeologist etc.) if someone made a roleclaim, would that affect how you thought about their possible alignment?
Post by: Freshmaniscoolman on March 26, 2013, 08:47:58 am
Because I can't pressure 2 targets at a time, impossible.
Post by: notquitethere on March 26, 2013, 08:51:27 am
Post by: Freshmaniscoolman on March 26, 2013, 08:56:58 am
Post by: Leafsnail on March 26, 2013, 09:04:02 am
Leafsnail: In a scenario when you've a Scroll of Ill Will - when would you it, what factors would you use it under and will there be any other factors compelling you to use it at the time given?Assuming it's my only item I'd use it against someone who looks scummy at the first available opportunity. It's really not good enough to be worth saving.
Imperial Guardsman: Did you know that going out of your way to not look scummy is itself scummy?This is a pretty softball question!
Post by: Teneb on March 26, 2013, 09:04:46 am
Freshman: First: use quotes. It's best for everyone if we know what you are talking about and the context behind it. Look at this post to see how you should quote.
why do you think it's best to pressure just one target at a time? Don't you risk scum slipping by that way?
Because I can't pressure 2 targets at a time, impossible.
Why not? Elaborate.
do you think it's better to pressure just one target at a time, or pursue multiple target simultaneously?It is not above. In his second question he asked how you would use it, not if one or more than one target. Also, even if he doesn't ask why you should say why.
One target at a time
Also, how would you use pressure, and in what way are you giving it as your first post contains nothing but answers...and a really bad edit.
Answer is above. And, nothing is really being said to me but questions, so I have nothing to input.
As for the second part of the quote, yes you have something to input. ASK QUESTIONS.
What item would you be most worried about scum having?Or maybe he is just trying to know how you think (since you are new) and you are panicking scum. Answer his question.
Why do you care about that? Perhaps maybe you're asking me to get that specific item and worry me.
Specify. What kind of dangerous item? One that can kill? One that can block? Posion? Randomize? Something else?freshmaniscoolman: What item would you be most worried about scum having?Any dangerous item. :)
What she asked: if you had a protect, how would you choose who to protect and why.Freshmaniscoolman: Mind if I shorten your name to "Fresh" for easier typing?I don't understand the question.
Let's say you've a protect - under what circumstances are you going to pick your target, and why?
Stop being lazy and play.
IG:
Do not post things like this. As long as you don't go for more than 24 hours (not counting weekends) without posting (and posting something useful, not just doing posts like the one in the quote), you shouldn't worry about lurking.Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Tiruin:
It was 00:50, I was half-asleep, had a headache and thought it would be witty (it was not).Tiruin: Are youWhy yes, yes I am.scumtown?
Why are you asking me this?
Post by: Toaster on March 26, 2013, 09:20:27 am
The Soldier:
notquitethere: Vector, Urist Imiknorris,
Vector:
Captain Ford:
Hapah:
Urist Imiknorris:
Deathsword:
Zrk2: Captain Ford,
Leafsnail:
Imperial Guardsman: Leafsnail, Tiruin,
Tiruin:
alamoes: The Soldier,
Freshmaniscoolman: notquitethere, Deathsword,
Not Voting: Hapah, Zrk2, Imperial Guardsman, alamoes, Freshmaniscoolman
Day 1 will last until Thursday, 3/28 at 11 PM EST.
Please do not edit your posts. If you made an error, just double post- it's perfectly acceptable (and preferred.)
Post by: alamoes on March 26, 2013, 09:27:00 am
Post by: Toaster on March 26, 2013, 09:29:32 am
If it's not clear, the count is listed this way:
Person: People who are voting for them
Post by: alamoes on March 26, 2013, 09:32:34 am
Post by: notquitethere on March 26, 2013, 09:40:50 am
Zrk2, I see that in BYOR 8 you rolled Wikipedia Updater; let us imagine we discovered the items that two players had: should we be more wary of the one that has a very powerful one-shot ability (like Wikipedia Updater) or the one with a lower-powered multi-use ability? That's a very general question, but I'm trying to get a feel for your sense of risk.
Spoiler: OOC (click to show/hide)
alamoes
When did I vote the first time? Anyways, I'll vote for the soldier, since he is voting for me.Do you know about the concept of 'OMGUS', or 'Oh-My-God-You-Suck'? Basically, it's seen as bad form to vote someone merely because they voted for you. The reasoning is, it's a certainty that town are going to accidentally vote for town; if all town players mainly voted people that voted them back, scum could easily slip by unattended.
Post by: Freshmaniscoolman on March 26, 2013, 09:43:14 am
Post by: Tiruin on March 26, 2013, 09:52:18 am
When did I vote the first time? Anyways, I'll vote for the soldier, since he is voting for me.@_@
Nooooooo...
If Dariush was here, his BP would be rising well over the 100s :P (Really, miss you Dar. Sincerely.)
Anyway, this is your first post, bro. What'cha gonna do with it? Blatantly OMGUS - read the BM... - or at least ask questions to show you care?
Squandering your vote would lead to nothin' good, sir. Lesee, why exactly do you want to vote Soldier - because he's voting you. Why?
Yup, sorry, I edited because the format was messed up, plus I deleted a question that wasn't mine.::)
do you think it's better to pressure just one target at a time, or pursue multiple target simultaneously?
One target at a time
Also, how would you use pressure, and in what way are you giving it as your first post contains nothing but answers...and a really bad edit.
Answer is above. And, nothing is really being said to me but questions, so I have nothing to input.
What item would you be most worried about scum having?
Why do you care about that? Perhaps maybe you're asking me to get that specific item and worry me.
C'mon. You evade a question and act all paranoiacally. As evidenced by the last line...I care because (well, ok, The Soldier cares but I'm poking on it) you're...deliberately avoiding a blank question.
I mean, you can answer any damn thing out there Freshman, because it talks about what you fear scum having! Its not like "Oh dear gods, I fear scum have a CLUB OF BONKING!" now that worries me...
Also, what? Thief now? How can you obtain [What] specific item?
Next, use the speechbox button in the reply menu - it gives the
Code: [Select]
[quote][/quote] where you can put replies in it. Bolding stuff...makes it 20% harder to see, really.PPE: Aw come on. Fast typers.
I don't know why you imply I'm being lazy. In my opinion, the questions don't really make sense at all to me.Hypothetical questions. They're asking what your opinion is.
Post by: Zrk2 on March 26, 2013, 10:05:20 am
Going to bed soon. I can be very ... quirky when I'm tired.
Unvote. The rock giveth, the rock taketh away.
*throws rock at Zrk2* "Now you!"
Ahh! I quiver in fear of your magical rock.
Mmm...thief of words is an appropriate term with that wordplay, and it still rings correct...
Zrk2: Are you going to actively post now? Also, wielding a roleblock, do you think that alignment would factor in on who or when you'd use that - regardless of the fact that "if scum: know who's town"?
I'll try to. With a roleblock I would save it until push came to shove, and then use it on whoever I deemed the greatest threat. Thus, alignment would not influence how I decide to use it, but it would alter the circumstances that would compel me to use it.
Zrk2, I see that in BYOR 8 you rolled Wikipedia Updater; let us imagine we discovered the items that two players had: should we be more wary of the one that has a very powerful one-shot ability (like Wikipedia Updater) or the one with a lower-powered multi-use ability? That's a very general question, but I'm trying to get a feel for your sense of risk.
I'm generally quite conservative. Seeing as redirects, blocks and whatnot tend to run rampant in role-heavy games I think a less powerful reusable ability would be more useful, especially since even if a oneshot isn't redirected my read may be wrong.
Vector: What role ( in this game) do you think is most useful to town? To scum? To third parties?
Deathsword: What redeeming values do you have?
Alamoes: Do you remember the Alamo?
Post by: Tiruin on March 26, 2013, 10:22:28 am
Post by: Teneb on March 26, 2013, 10:26:55 am
Deathsword: What redeeming values do you have?I try to help newbies. Even if that means attacking them until they learn.
I'll get to everyone else later.
Post by: notquitethere on March 26, 2013, 10:37:38 am
When you're new to the game there's a lot of jargon to sift through. Tiruin's question that you didn't understand was:
Let's say you've a protect - under what circumstances are you going to pick your target, and why?What she means is, let us imagine that you've got an item that allows you to protect another player at night. This means (like the doctor role in a normal mafia game), if you protect another player then if the mafia or someone else tries to kill them in the night, the attack will be blocked instead. Tiruin wanted to know how you would decide who to protect. Let's say town has just lynched a member of the mafia, and it's the night after. Would you use your Protect on someone that had voted for the scum or not? And if you did, how would you decide which of the people that lynched scum to protect?
Be careful, often new players appear uncooperative or evasive and end up getting themselves lynched even when they're playing town.
Post by: Zrk2 on March 26, 2013, 10:39:38 am
Zrk2: Of all your questions, the one regarding Vector seems to be the most pertinent to Mafia. How will the ones regarding DS/alamoes even help? Also, don't you agree that if you were scum in that alignment question, a roleblock would surely help you - sans any watcher catching you that is - compared to a townie?
I admit the one directed toward Alamoes was just me being a smartass, but the one directed towards Deathsword is intented to prompt him to talk about himself, and what he thinks he does well, and also what he doesn't. As well, I see what you mean in that a roleblock is generally more useful to the scum, but townies also can benefit from it.
Deathsword: What redeeming values do you have?I try to help newbies. Even if that means attacking them until they learn.
I was hoping for something more... substantial.
PPE: Fuckin' ninja.
Post by: Tiruin on March 26, 2013, 10:49:58 am
@Zrk: Interesting, but how would singling out DS and how he plays aid you at all? There are a ton of new players I guess you haven't played with - why him?
Well, you've got your answer. Anything to add to it or is your vote staying a blank?Deathsword: What redeeming values do you have?I try to help newbies. Even if that means attacking them until they learn.
I was hoping for something more... substantial.
PPE: Fuckin' ninja.
No wait that sounded passive-aggressive. Sorry.
> So then you're leaving DS with nothing else to chew on but your vote? Really?
@NQT: You explain things better than I could (and gave a more specific scenario, mine was to see what he'd do in general but otherwise I'm also in favor of listening to Fresh's reply on it).
Be careful, often new players appear uncooperative or evasive and end up getting themselves lynched even when they're playing town.@alamoes/Fresh/IG: That was what I was talking about in my post back there if you were wondering.
Post by: Teneb on March 26, 2013, 11:02:42 am
I was hoping for something more... substantial.Deathsword: What redeeming values do you have?I try to help newbies. Even if that means attacking them until they learn.
PPE: Fuckin' ninja.
You asked what redeeming values I have. That is what I believe.
Now, tell me, how does that help you with finding scum?
I don't know why you imply I'm being lazy. In my opinion, the questions don't really make sense at all to me.Freshman, saying you have nothing to do because you are answering questions is lazy. Why? Because you can both answer questions and ask questions at the same time. If you think the questions don't make sense, then ask questions (see, it can lead you to asking questions) like the one to Zrk2 above in this very post. But do not refuse to answer the questions and ask your own. Hunt for scum. Find something that feels off and question. And then question some more. Then, if you are sure they are scum, vote. And then ask more questions both to the player you think is scum, and to others.
Post by: Zrk2 on March 26, 2013, 12:00:18 pm
Post by: Tiruin on March 26, 2013, 12:31:52 pm
Post by: Captain Ford on March 26, 2013, 12:36:01 pm
Tiruin:
Dude, stop using other games to correlate with me in other games please :/...that does not actually make sense. But I understand your point, and for what it's worth, I apologize if I was insensitive.
But it was worth it for this:
*Tiruin points at a nearby pole. "Post."How excellently eccentric *golf clap*
Also...your first post was a light-hearted one because "going to bed soon"?I had a friend who referred to the phenomenon as being "night drunk". My philosophy about the first posts of RVS is that anything goes as long as it leads to people talking.
Coming up with good questions takes effort, and if I'm not up to putting in that effort, well, it's more important to get a discussion started, don't you agree?
...how is UI's question making sense? Never saw any of his posts relating to self-hatred...Huzzah (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=124225.msg4130427#msg4130427)!
NQT:
Tiruin and FordKnowing a player's meta helps me sift through their posts, bypassing things that are normal for them and analyzing the actual meaning and intent behind their posts and actions.
I always play with you guys :D, how much do you foresee relying upon your knowledge of the meta of your fellow players?
As to how much ... I don't know how to quantify that. 100% of the time?
Zrk2:
Ahh! I quiver in fear of your magical rock.Ah, wow. I actually expected a lot more sarcasm. *smiles*
Unvote. A more serious question now, since I'm fully awake: How would you describe your playstyle? Are there any games you've done well in? (I think I have a very tilted view of your meta, I'm hoping to expand it a bit)
Deathsword: What redeeming values do you have?What does Deathsword need redeeming from?
Post by: Zrk2 on March 26, 2013, 12:40:39 pm
You forgot the 'how does that help you with finding scum?' part.
Having a better read on someone doesn't help me find scum? Did I miss something?
Zrk2:Ahh! I quiver in fear of your magical rock.Ah, wow. I actually expected a lot more sarcasm. *smiles*
Unvote. A more serious question now, since I'm fully awake: How would you describe your playstyle? Are there any games you've done well in? (I think I have a very tilted view of your meta, I'm hoping to expand it a bit)
Poor? I haven't played since last Fall, IIRC, and I've never been very good. I usually get lynched in the first day or two even if I am townie. I honestly don't know what my meta is a this point. Anyone want to let me know what it is?
Post by: Imperial Guardsman on March 26, 2013, 01:23:26 pm
dodging questions, suspicious, etc
i really think he might be scum.
Post by: Zrk2 on March 26, 2013, 01:43:13 pm
Vote:freshmaniscoolman
dodging questions, suspicious, etc
i really think he might be scum.
Examples please.
Post by: Imperial Guardsman on March 26, 2013, 01:49:04 pm
I don't know why you imply I'm being lazy. In my opinion, the questions don't really make sense at all to me.
Here is a good example...
Post by: Imperial Guardsman on March 26, 2013, 01:50:09 pm
Yup, sorry, I edited because the format was messed up, plus I deleted a question that wasn't mine.This is iffy too!
do you think it's better to pressure just one target at a time, or pursue multiple target simultaneously?
One target at a time
Also, how would you use pressure, and in what way are you giving it as your first post contains nothing but answers...and a really bad edit.
Answer is above. And, nothing is really being said to me but questions, so I have nothing to input.
What item would you be most worried about scum having?
Why do you care about that? Perhaps maybe you're asking me to get that specific item and worry me.
Post by: Captain Ford on March 26, 2013, 01:51:46 pm
Vote:freshmaniscoolmanImperial Guardsman.
dodging questions, suspicious, etc
i really think he might be scum.
Has
I really think he's not trying.
PPE: Hmm ... I guess that counts as an answer.
Post by: Imperial Guardsman on March 26, 2013, 01:56:28 pm
Work with the town like a good townie.
ImperialGuardsman: How are you going to take care of the opposition?
dont die.
Post by: Hapah on March 26, 2013, 01:56:29 pm
Are there hammers in this game?
Hapah: What's the most dangerous third party, and what would you do to stop them?I believe the most dangerous third party to be the one you don't know is there. I'll elaborate on this after work.
Fresh, I wouldn't say it was impossible. I'm pressuring you on this point, and, if you'll look above, I have the beginnings of pressure on other players (such as Urist). You can't pressure vote two people at the same time, but you can apply pressure by following up on their responses.It looks to me that your non-Fresh questions don't have much pressure at all.
I agree he should be more specific, but the item list isn't required reading.Specify. What kind of dangerous item? One that can kill? One that can block? Posion? Randomize? Something else?freshmaniscoolman: What item would you be most worried about scum having?Any dangerous item. :)
Hapah, I like to address everyone in the random vote/question stage. In one of my previous games a player took umbrage with this. Is it better to focus on one or a handful of individuals at the start, or try and talk to everyone?I don't think there is a "wrong" answer, but I'd say focus on a handful is the better option. You can either throw everyone a line and hope that something interesting comes back, or focus on a few and make something interesting surface. What do you think?
Vote:freshmaniscoolmanJust put his name in red, no need to muck about with the "Vote:" part.
dodging questions, suspicious, etc
i really think he might be scum.
Zrk2 is right though, your arguments need to have some meat to them. If you think someone is scum, you've gotta paint the picture so everyone else can see it. Reasoning is good, examples are better.
PPE (Pre-Post Edit for you new folks): Yay, examples! Can't look now, gotta get back to work.
Post by: Imperial Guardsman on March 26, 2013, 01:59:29 pm
-_-Vote:freshmaniscoolmanImperial Guardsman.
dodging questions, suspicious, etc
i really think he might be scum.
Hasanswered no questions, asked no questions, suspicious, etc
I really think he's not trying.
PPE: Hmm ... I guess that counts as an answer.
Post by: Imperial Guardsman on March 26, 2013, 02:07:33 pm
Post by: Toaster on March 26, 2013, 02:22:23 pm
Post by: Teneb on March 26, 2013, 02:23:31 pm
IG, if you really think he is scum, then why aren't you asking more? Why don't you give us examples? With quotes. This is not real-life or SC2 mafia. You are expected to put effort in your posts, in your accusations. Posts like the one you did are extremely scummy. The simple presence of "etc" proves that you put absolutely no effort on that post.-_-Vote:freshmaniscoolmanImperial Guardsman.
dodging questions, suspicious, etc
i really think he might be scum.
Hasanswered no questions, asked no questions, suspicious, etc
I really think he's not trying.
PPE: Hmm ... I guess that counts as an answer.
fresh. If you were scum (Once Freshman answers, how will you use the information such an answer provides to determine if he is scum or not?which i think you are) what class would you be?
Post by: alamoes on March 26, 2013, 02:31:00 pm
Post by: Hapah on March 26, 2013, 02:33:22 pm
Never let others dictate your vote. Put it where you think it needs to go.
Post by: Teneb on March 26, 2013, 02:35:18 pm
PFP
Never let others dictate your vote. Put it where you think it needs to go.
To expand: Do not be passive. Do not let others tell you who to vote. If you are unsure, choose someone (at random if you have to) and question. If they feel town to you, question them some more while moving on to another player.
Post by: alamoes on March 26, 2013, 02:44:30 pm
Post by: Zrk2 on March 26, 2013, 02:45:40 pm
I know it may be bad form, but who would you guys rather me vote against? He's going down regardless, it seems. If enough people give me a good reason to vote otherwise I will change my vote.
PFP
Never let others dictate your vote. Put it where you think it needs to go.
Exactly.
However, before we jump down the throats of the newbies it may be a good idea to consider their actions in light of the fact that they are new, and not lynch them for "scumtells" that are simply newby mistakes. While I generally am not opposed to lynching the least productive person D1, because there is nothing else to really go on, in this case I think it may be uncalled for.
Post by: Captain Ford on March 26, 2013, 02:50:43 pm
I know it may be bad form, but who would you guys rather me vote against? He's going down regardless, it seems. If enough people give me a good reason to vote otherwise I will change my vote.I'm glad you know it's bad form. I'd like you to vote the person you find most suspicious, so I can get an idea about what's going on in your head.
He's going down regardless, it seems.Who is "he"? Do you think he's scum? If not, then why are you content to let him go down?
Post by: Hapah on March 26, 2013, 02:52:38 pm
Yup, you've got the meat of it Zrk2 (how in God's name as I supposed to abbreviate that? It doesn't exactly roll off the tongue, lol). The new guys and gals will make all kinds of slipups and goofs, but that's just part of the experience; we've all been there.
alamoes: That's the spirit! Who do you suspect right now, and why?
Post by: Vector on March 26, 2013, 02:57:52 pm
Quote from: Dakarian's Scumhunting Bible
A VERY rough sketch of how a scumhunt is done (to help those who aren't sure now).
Step 1: When you have no suspicions on anyone, pick someone at random (I MEAN random.. some use Random.org for this!), take a glance as their past posts, and talk to them, usually with a vote. The goal is not to kill but to learn more about them. The vote is a "Pressure Vote", simply used to make sure they don't ignore you.
Step 2: When someone feels 'off' to you: perhaps you disliked their answer, or maybe they scare you, or confuse you with their text. Perhaps they look fine but your feelings or your gut says something is wrong. Perhaps you see them do one scumtell. Don't ignore it: make them your target. Attack them. Tell them what bothers you about them. Push them, harass them. Tell them how scummy they are. Ask them every question in the book.. and I mean EVERYTHING:
Litia: "You bother me. Vote Dakarian!"
Dak: Meh. Why?
Litia: "Because you bother me. Why are you pushing me off as if it doesn't matter?"
Dak: "What? No, you just have nothing on me."
Litia: "You're voting for Vector. why?"
Dak: "He looked scummy.."
Litia: "Vagueness is a scumtell! "Scummy.. how is he scummy!"
Dak: "He just is.. you don't have a reason to go after me either."
Litia: "OMGUSing now Mr.Scum? Being defensive? You also didn't answer my question!"
Note, this is Step 2: Litia doesn't feel like she knows Dakarian is scum.. just had a 'feeling'. She has no hard evidence, nothing real. The questions are to add pressure.. make Dakarian crack and panic. If you did it right, they WILL town or scum. WHEN they do, you will be able to see more of their true self. From there, decide if you can find them as scum for truth. If you don't: pull out and go to your next suspect: if no one else is there, go back to Step 1.
If you do believe they are scum after that, Step 3:
Step 3: When you believe someone is scum, gather evidence. Find every scum tell, every sign of their true motives. Pull more from them. DON'T LET GO! Even if the town ignores you or even votes for you because of it, DO IT ANYWAY! Push, push, PUSH, ***PUSH*** until you have solid proof of what they are.
If you can't find enough to prove them and run out of things to say, check one more time to see if you still feel he's scum, then pull back, look at others (Step 2) but be ready to go back to them at any time. If your convinced and ready to kill them, Step 4
Step 4: Final step. It's time to convince the town. Show what you have. Push the target so they show more scumminess. Attack, but do it only to demonstrate to the town what you KNOW is true. You aren't trying to argue with the mafia anymore.. you are trying to show the town why you are right and Mr.Mafia MUST be lynched. If you are at this point, only 3 things can happen:
1. The scum is lynched.
2. You are given so much information that you become CONVINCED that the target is town. (no less than CONVINCED.. doubt, maybe, 'perhaps' won't due)
3. You are dead.
That's how a basic scumhunt is done. One last note on doubt:
Doubt is something that's ok to have but UGLY to show. If you doubt or have second thoughts, DON'T DISPLAY IT. If you think "He looks passive but I don't know..." you SAY "You scum! Stop being passive!!!" If you think "He may have a good reason to attack guy really." say "Give me your reasons and stop being vague."
Doubt is something for yourself. When you have doubt, go back and see if your original ideas still hold up. If they do or if you find yourself saying "I'm not sure" then go back to the attack until you are sure. This ain't the USA: we play by Guilty until Proven Innocent here. Unless you can get yourself to believe they may be honest, keep the attack.
So doubt is ok to have if used right.. but the town does NOT need to hear it. If you doubt, accuse anyway as if you know. If you wonder, accuse as if you know it. If you know the answer, ASK ANYWAY and let THEM answer. Make them convince you they are town: don't do the job for them.
And that's scumhunting in a nutshell. Everyone, try to figure out what Step you are on and work accordingly. Note that you should be almost done Step 1 by the end of Day 1 (though some may be higher by then). If you aren't, keep random voting and consider an Extension.
If you don't know WHAT you are.. you're in Step 1. Get to random voting.
Last note: 'Not voting' should only be done when you are doing a quick look over everyone's past. Otherwise, your vote and your attention should always be on SOMEONE, even if it is at random.
It's best for a lynch to be for a reason reason.. but it's better for someone to be lynched randomly than for no lynch to occur at all.
I'll post more later.
Post by: Imperial Guardsman on March 26, 2013, 03:05:18 pm
I would determine what kind of player he is through the class and study this player further.fresh. If you were scum (Once Freshman answers, how will you use the information such an answer provides to determine if he is scum or not?which i think you are) what class would you be?
Post by: The Soldier on March 26, 2013, 03:22:44 pm
PPE: Make that 40. Wow.
NQT:
The Soldier, given the list of possible player classes (thief, archaeologist etc.) if someone made a roleclaim, would that affect how you thought about their possible alignment?Spoilered for convenience:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Freshman:
I agree with the others, in that you really should be more specific. At the very least, give my a type of item (Blocks, redirects, etc).freshmaniscoolman: What item would you be most worried about scum having?Any dangerous item. :)
What item would you be most worried about scum having?It's just an RVS question. I want to know how you think, which is especially important because I've never seen you play before.
Why do you care about that? Perhaps maybe you're asking me to get that specific item and worry me.
Also, your fear is unfounded, since there's no way to get a specific item outside of the rare Magic Lamp.
alamoes:
When did I vote the first time? Anyways, I'll vote for the soldier, since he is voting for me.It's pretty clear you're new, so I'll give you some advice.
- Voting for someone with no reason except "They're voting me" is called OMGUS, short for "OMG U Suck." It's considered a scumtell because it means that you have no real reasons and are simply lashing out. And, if you have no reasons, you aren't paying much attention to the game, which is bad for town. Basically, always have a reason for voting (or unvoting) someone, or you'll be lynched in short order.
- Your natural next question might be "Then why are you voting me in the first place? I hadn't even posted yet." Currently, we're in the random vote stage, or RVS. We ask questions to see how people think and get real discussion started. The vote is for pressure; I don't actually suspect you of anything.
Also, do please answer my questions here. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=124225.msg4131665#msg4131665) Try asking some questions while you're at it; lazy town is bad town.
Captain Ford: Do you have any suspicions?
NQT: If you could remove one item from the game, what would it be?
Getting this post out before it gets obsoleted by other people.
Post by: alamoes on March 26, 2013, 03:49:14 pm
alamoes: How much mafia experience do you have? Do you feel confident about your chances of winning.
It is my first internet mafia game *ever*. I believe that I will be executed fairly soon.
Post by: Vector on March 26, 2013, 03:50:46 pm
Post by: Leafsnail on March 26, 2013, 04:07:45 pm
Leafsnail, following up on your question (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=124225.msg4131509#msg4131509)to Imperial, my non-exhaustive evidence from the games I've played in shows that scum almost always employ some kind of distancing (by random voting one another or FOSing throughout the game), but often that distancing is asymmetric: Scum A will vote for Scum B who will vote for Scum C but not Scum A. This was certainly a pattern town could have seen in the mason game if they'd bothered to look. Are there any more obvious signs of distancing?This is all valid but why are you answering Imperial Guardsman's question for him?
Vote:freshmaniscoolmanAnd why aren't you answering your questions for you??
dodging questions, suspicious, etc
i really think he might be scum.
Post by: Captain Ford on March 26, 2013, 04:09:35 pm
Vector: Please spoiler it.
Imperial: I can see you got my point. Unvote. Now tell me, if you were scum, which of the other players would you want on your team?
Zrk2: I actually think the way we've been handling the newblets has been very gentle, at least so far.
If Dariush was in this game, I'd ask him which of the newbies he'd expect to get to lynched first.
Freshman: That's understandable. At the start of every game, we have nothing to go on, so we have to make something. Reason being, why would anyone have any motive to post anything at all?
Over at mafiascum.net, the convention is to start off the game with a night 0, so there's something to talk about on the first day. Over here at bay12, we don't see the point of killing off a player before they have a chance to play, so instead we choose to start off with nothing and put the onus on us to be more creative.
You can really do anything during the start of the game. I tend to just ask whatever's on my mind. Just don't do nothing.
The Soldier: No, not really.
Also, if you haven't read the item list yourself, it's kind of hypocritical to expect it of someone else.
PPE: Lots of people
Post by: alamoes on March 26, 2013, 04:11:27 pm
Perhaps, but what does your execution have to do with the victory of your team?
I don't think the town would miss me much, considering that I'm a noob.
Post by: Hapah on March 26, 2013, 04:13:12 pm
Don't be so down on yourself, stranger!
Post by: alamoes on March 26, 2013, 04:23:15 pm
Freshmaniscoolman: I just ate a banana. Do you think brains taste like bananas?
Captain Ford: Did you read the item list? If you had one scroll of revive, who would you use it on?
Post by: Captain Ford on March 26, 2013, 04:27:45 pm
Captain Ford: Did you read the item list? If you had one scroll of revive, who would you use it on?I can't find that item on the list. Where did you find it?
Post by: Urist Imiknorris on March 26, 2013, 04:29:21 pm
Incidentally, I know this is the RVS, but you do realise that you're the third person to 'randomly' vote me (with none of them unvoting). How many votes would I need on me in the RVS before I start throwing around accusations of bandwagoning?I don't count votes during RVS.
Freshmaniscoolman:
why do you think it's best to pressure just one target at a time? Don't you risk scum slipping by that way?Really? I do it all the time. What's so hard about it?
Because I can't pressure 2 targets at a time, impossible.
Leafsnail:
Especially when taken by itself!Imperial Guardsman: Did you know that going out of your way to not look scummy is itself scummy?This is a pretty softball question!
(psst - look at his post right here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=124225.msg4131992#msg4131992))
alamoes:
You do realize that you're now voting yourself, right?
Also, what did your question to Freshmaniscoolman have to do with anything?
Imperial Guardsman:
Okay, how are you going to work with the town? I mean, you aren't exactly questioning anyone.Work with the town like a good townie.
ImperialGuardsman: How are you going to take care of the opposition?
dont die.simple as that.
Post by: Captain Ford on March 26, 2013, 04:32:51 pm
Post by: The Soldier on March 26, 2013, 04:40:39 pm
Also, unvote alamoes since he answered. You know you can still win when you're dead, right?
freshman until he answers.
PFP
Post by: Captain Ford on March 26, 2013, 04:44:21 pm
I probably would have edited that to say something more like "that's a big homework assignment for one question" if I'd remembered to edit it.
Post by: Zrk2 on March 26, 2013, 04:50:08 pm
Zrk2: I actually think the way we've been handling the newblets has been very gentle, at least so far.
Fair enough. I thought we had the beginnings of a bandwagon on our hands, and did what I could to avert it.
I'm going out now, and likely won't be back for four hours, and even then I might not have time for a post before bed. Don't do anything too stupid while I'm gone.
Post by: Leafsnail on March 26, 2013, 04:50:47 pm
Especially when taken by itself!I did see his post. That's why I'm saying it's a softball question.
(psst - look at his post right here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=124225.msg4131992#msg4131992))
Post by: alamoes on March 26, 2013, 04:53:19 pm
NQT:Incidentally, I know this is the RVS, but you do realise that you're the third person to 'randomly' vote me (with none of them unvoting). How many votes would I need on me in the RVS before I start throwing around accusations of bandwagoning?I don't count votes during RVS.
Freshmaniscoolman:why do you think it's best to pressure just one target at a time? Don't you risk scum slipping by that way?Really? I do it all the time. What's so hard about it?
Because I can't pressure 2 targets at a time, impossible.
Leafsnail:Especially when taken by itself!Imperial Guardsman: Did you know that going out of your way to not look scummy is itself scummy?This is a pretty softball question!
(psst - look at his post right here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=124225.msg4131992#msg4131992))
alamoes:
You do realize that you're now voting yourself, right?
Also, what did your question to Freshmaniscoolman have to do with anything?
Imperial Guardsman:Okay, how are you going to work with the town? I mean, you aren't exactly questioning anyone.Work with the town like a good townie.
ImperialGuardsman: How are you going to take care of the opposition?
dont die.simple as that.
For the question:I just felt obligated to ask some random question about something to some random guy. It seems to be what everyone is doing, but I don't have many good questions.
I'm pretty sure I'm sure I'm not voting for myself though. I'll unvote the soldier, solving both issues. Freshman because he is the guy targeted by the most. I'll probably change it later though.
Ford: I'm confused. Where did you get the idea that I didn't read the item list?
Also, unvote alamoes since he answered. You know you can still win when you're dead, right?
freshman until he answers.
PFP
I know that I can win when I'm dead, but it would be no fun if I'm out on the first day.
Post by: Vector on March 26, 2013, 04:56:27 pm
Vector: Please spoiler it.
No.
Post by: Captain Ford on March 26, 2013, 05:01:36 pm
Also, you can trim down quotes. Please don't post big blocks like that when you're only addressing a small part of it.
Post by: alamoes on March 26, 2013, 05:08:51 pm
Captain Ford: Did you read the item list? If you had one scroll of revive, who would you use it on?I can't find that item on the list. Where did you find it?
One of the items were revive, which I assumed could be applied to scrolls. Scroll = one shot, revive is an effect. 1xrevive=scroll of revive. Logic.
Alamoes: You missed me.
Also, you can trim down quotes. Please don't post big blocks like that when you're only addressing a small part of it.
Sorry.
Post by: Captain Ford on March 26, 2013, 05:25:15 pm
It's okay. If you ever want to see how a post is formatted, you can always hit the quote link on the post to see how it looks in bbcode.Also, you can trim down quotes. Please don't post big blocks like that when you're only addressing a small part of it.
Sorry.
We might act nasty in game, but we're generally really nice people besides. The core of this game is arguing with people for fun. It can get kind of intense, but hopefully that's what you signed up for.
Also, whatever you might think of your actions, you haven't done anything lynchworthy yet. Just read the guides that Vector's posting, and keep working on figuring out who scum is.
The golden rule of bay12 mafia: You can get away with anything if you have good reasoning to back it up.
Post by: Captain Ford on March 26, 2013, 05:46:36 pm
The golden rule of bay12 mafia: You can get away with anything if you have good reasoning to back it up.Addendum & Disclaimer: The definition of "good reasoning" may vary from person to person. People are not always rational. And, of course, good reasoning does you no good if you don't share it.
Post by: Vector on March 26, 2013, 06:30:35 pm
Question: is your avatar a cake or a hat? It looks delicious. More seriously, what is the major difference between a scum-tell and newb-flailing? Are they easily distinguished?
Cake :3 Vector's avatar is always eatible.
My feeling is that it's difficult, and honestly easier if whoever's playing is pretty self-conscious. In that case, it's easy to differentiate, because you can beat the scumtells out of townie noobs pretty fast. People who don't care... you pretty much just have to lynch them, or hope that the scumteam is experienced and impatient enough to take 'em out (looking at Pandar's Org NK in NSBM).
Vector: What role ( in this game) do you think is most useful to town? To scum? To third parties?
Scum: Paladin, Warrior, Thief, in descending order.
Third party: Eh. . . I'd probably take Paladin or Priest, depending. You really need to roll with self-protection here, because most third-parties are survivors + something else.
To town? I don't really know. I think the best thing for town is to have a wide variety of roles across things that aren't Warrior or Thief. This is one of those things where it really amounts to how you're going to play to your own specialties and preferences.
I was hoping for something more... substantial.Deathsword: What redeeming values do you have?I try to help newbies. Even if that means attacking them until they learn.
PPE: Fuckin' ninja.
You asked what redeeming values I have. That is what I believe.
Now, tell me, how does that help you with finding scum?I don't know why you imply I'm being lazy. In my opinion, the questions don't really make sense at all to me.Freshman, saying you have nothing to do because you are answering questions is lazy. Why? Because you can both answer questions and ask questions at the same time. If you think the questions don't make sense, then ask questions (see, it can lead you to asking questions) like the one to Zrk2 above in this very post. But do not refuse to answer the questions and ask your own. Hunt for scum. Find something that feels off and question. And then question some more. Then, if you are sure they are scum, vote. And then ask more questions both to the player you think is scum, and to others.
You're both asking pretty much the same question, so I'll tackle both of them at once. Simply put I can't pressure everyone. Even Vector mentioned that earlier. So picked one person at random and are now trying to learn what they think they are good at, so I can get a better read on them.
How long do you intend to spend noob-sniping throughout this game, given that we have a lot of noobs and it is indeed difficult to spread one's attention very far? Furthermore, how will you differentiate noob-town and noob-scum?
Zrk2:Ahh! I quiver in fear of your magical rock.Ah, wow. I actually expected a lot more sarcasm. *smiles*
Unvote. A more serious question now, since I'm fully awake: How would you describe your playstyle? Are there any games you've done well in? (I think I have a very tilted view of your meta, I'm hoping to expand it a bit)Deathsword: What redeeming values do you have?What does Deathsword need redeeming from?
How is your unvote on the person you're still questioning going to help your case?
Post by: Imperial Guardsman on March 26, 2013, 06:48:27 pm
Imperial: I can see you got my point. Unvote. Now tell me, if you were scum, which of the other players would you want on your team?People like tiruin, vector, freshman, etc
Post by: Captain Ford on March 26, 2013, 06:52:40 pm
How is your unvote on the person you're still questioning going to help your case?What case?
...why freshman?Imperial: I can see you got my point. Unvote. Now tell me, if you were scum, which of the other players would you want on your team?People like tiruin, vector, freshman, etc
Post by: Vector on March 26, 2013, 06:54:02 pm
Post by: The Soldier on March 26, 2013, 07:05:50 pm
I know that I can win when I'm dead, but it would be no fun if I'm out on the first day.Fair enough. Also, try not to bandwagon in the future, as it's quite scummy. Would you be happy with Freshman being lynched if the day ended right this instant?
Additionally, you have no votes on you currently. As long as you keep answering questions and start asking them, it should stay that way, so I wouldn't be so worried about being the D1 lynch.
Ford:
The Soldier: Oh wow. I left that in there? Sorry. I guess I got interrupted in writing the post and forgot about that part.I realized that myself after I asked it, hence why I reduced it here. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=124225.msg4133077#msg4133077)
I probably would have edited that to say something more like "that's a big homework assignment for one question" if I'd remembered to edit it.
Post by: Hapah on March 26, 2013, 07:28:55 pm
For the question:I just felt obligated to ask some random question about something to some random guy. It seems to be what everyone is doing, but I don't have many good questions.It's an acquired skill, believe me. You get the hang of it after a couple of games.
Alamoes: The only revive items I see are both passives, and only work if the owner dies.You still haven't technically answered the question, y'know.
Soldier: I had the flow for this reply perfect earlier, but now I can't seem to find the words. I'll just say that almost all third parties are detrimental to town, and some can wrap up the game unexpectedly early. Many of them are mostly harmless once they have been identified (though I'll admit, you usually won't even know that they are a third party until they flip).
I had a piece of advice to the new players that I wanted to build into the reply, but I suppose I will have to present it on its own. My advice is to always ask Why?. And I don't mean tack it onto the end of every question or anything, but you need to ask yourself why people are doing things to try to determine their motives. It may be the single most important question you can ask yourself on a regular basis. As a personal example, take the last day of Totem Mafia 2. Through my deadchat connections, we were able to confirm that either Captain Ford or Leafsnail was scum. Naturally, they should have been trying to lynch each other. Ford went after Leafsnail, but Leafsnail hesitated in voting to lynch Ford. I noted that Leaf hesitated, but I neglected to ask why. Had I asked why he was hesitant I might have been able to work out that he was a third party, but I didn't.
Post by: Captain Ford on March 26, 2013, 07:55:01 pm
Putting pressure on someone can generate activity for them (by giving them something to respond to). The test here is to see if he can do it on his own. (And I suppose I'm looking for a baseline, too)
The Soldier: Yeah. I hope he knows what those terms mean.
Speaking of which, I've got an answer. I think Excalibur is probably the ultimate lylo-breaker, and I'd be worried if one fell into scum hands (but then, I wouldn't know about it until too late, so there's no sense in worrying about it).
Hapah:
I can't really answer the question unless I know how the item works. Since it doesn't exist, I'd have to make it up.Alamoes: The only revive items I see are both passives, and only work if the owner dies.You still haven't technically answered the question, y'know.
In which case, I'd use it on myself.
Also, that's very good advice.
Post by: alamoes on March 26, 2013, 08:34:45 pm
alamoes:I know that I can win when I'm dead, but it would be no fun if I'm out on the first day.Fair enough. Also, try not to bandwagon in the future, as it's quite scummy. Would you be happy with Freshman being lynched if the day ended right this instant?
Additionally, you have no votes on you currently. As long as you keep answering questions and start asking them, it should stay that way, so I wouldn't be so worried about being the D1 lynch.
Yeah, I know I'm probably safe, but still, probably is an unsure word. If Freshman was lynched, I would probably be fine with it, but I'd rather have his answers first. If he is a town, I'd have my regrets, but still, the game must go on. And to lynch a random guy is better than not lynching at all. I'm still tempted to pull out random.org for that.
Post by: Captain Ford on March 26, 2013, 08:37:49 pm
The Soldier: That's a really odd question to bandwagon on, especially seeing as it's only been 11 hours since his last post. Also, judging from his reply to Vector's question, he doesn't recognize the terms you used at all. Do you really think adding pressure is going to help?
alamoes: Don't do that. The problem with everyone voting at random is that scum could easily decide the vote, ensuring that a townie gets lynched. Everyone voting at random is a sure-fire way to ensure you don't lynch scum on the first day.
Thus, we scumhunt.
Post by: Captain Ford on March 26, 2013, 09:13:33 pm
Cake :3 Vector's avatar is always eatible.Everyone's avatar is edible. >:3
Also, I keep thinking your avatar is some kind of bug.
(looking at Pandar's Org NK in NSBM)Which game was NSBM? I don't recognize it.
The Soldier: Uh, wow. I just read his original answer. Never mind.
Freshmaniscoolman:
What item would you be most worried about scum having?I don't think it's been said yet, but this is incredibly paranoid. You can only acquire items randomly in this game (aside from starting items), so the idea of acquiring a specific item is absurd. (unless I'm missing something)
Why do you care about that? Perhaps maybe you're asking me to get that specific item and worry me.
Also "perhaps maybe" is redundant. Which comes off really weak.
Showing contempt for the question and for RVS in general is not exactly a winning strategy, Freshman. Until I see something better from you, you really deserve this vote.
Post by: Toaster on March 26, 2013, 09:43:02 pm
Vote Count:
The Soldier:
notquitethere: Vector, Urist Imiknorris
Vector:
Captain Ford:
Hapah:
Urist Imiknorris:
Deathsword: Zrk2
Zrk2:
Leafsnail:
Imperial Guardsman: Leafsnail
Tiruin:
alamoes:
Zombie Urist: notquitethere, Deathsword, Tiruin, The Soldier, alamoes, Captain Ford
Not Voting: Hapah, Imperial Guardsman, Zombie Urist
Day 1 will last until Thursday, 3/28 at 11 PM EST.
Vote:freshmaniscoolman
Please put the name of the person you are voting in red. "Vote Player" and "Vote Player" are both acceptable.
alamoes: How much mafia experience do you have? Do you feel confident about your chances of winning.
I assume you meant this as a quote, but in this format, this is considered a vote for yourself. I recommend using quote tags to avoid confusion.
Thanks to zombie urist for replacing, and for Okami No Rei for hopping on the replacement queue!
Post by: Captain Ford on March 26, 2013, 09:46:19 pm
I have had too many pancakes and am going to bed now.
Post by: Vector on March 26, 2013, 09:53:10 pm
Unvote. I need a little time.
Post by: Tiruin on March 26, 2013, 09:53:27 pm
That one Guardsman
Vote:freshmaniscoolmanYou're doing it wrong.
dodging questions, suspicious, etc
i really think he might be scum.
You should put the person's name (or a shorter version of their name, as long as who it is is understood) in red, not the Vote itself.
Also, putting quotes and reasoning along with (as in response to) said quote/post helps identify which you're talking about. Because you're pointing at thin air here.
Alsoalso, you're not giving Freshman something to 'bite onto', per se. Mafia is also of a conversational game. How is this even scumhunting when you're giving a one-way liner?
Also3: How do you think you'll do this when town doesn't even know each other? (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=124225.msg4132785#msg4132785)
AlsoIV: You...seem to have the intention to vote Freshman, but redden the 'Vote'. Then you FoS him...
Err, is there anything you're misunderstanding?
AlsoV:
Y me?Imperial: I can see you got my point. Unvote. Now tell me, if you were scum, which of the other players would you want on your team?People like tiruin, vector, freshman, etc
alamoes
I know it may be bad form, but who would you guys rather me vote against? He's going down regardless, it seems. If enough people give me a good reason to vote otherwise I will change my vote.Oh dear. He's going down regardless? Hm. You know, nothing is sound in stone until the day ends (or usually near day end, wherein the votes show where people's thinking lies in who is scum)
Also, why would we persuade you to change your vote - what are you doing about it-...
I need to look over everyone to adjust my vote accordingly. My internet is very bad today. I'm just sitting here waiting for posts to load.@_@
alamoes: How much mafia experience do you have? Do you feel confident about your chances of winning.
It is my first internet mafia game *ever*. I believe that I will be executed fairly soon.
Oh no bro. This is not how you do these things! This reminds me of that first regular game I got into from the BM - died hilariously at D1 as a martyr...even if Martyr wasn't my role.
Dude. You do not do these things. Lynching yourself is a baaaad idea. If you've no information to give (but the possibility that your roleflip = town) then why bother lynching yourself? It. Wastes. A. Town. Weapon. The Lynch.
...Goodness. It took my the entirety of typing the above (and then skimming the following pages) to notice that you're probably quoting and not voting yourself.
Aaaand now you target Freshman (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=124225.msg4133380#msg4133380) because he's being voted by most. Why will you change that later, and on what conditions will you change it?
Why'd you vote him in the first place - y'know, other than that reason.
Sifting back to the everyone else now :/ Sorry newbies, but those caught my eye first.
PPE: Everyone after Ford's nice cake comment. Because cake :L
The Soldier:Oh Teal. How I miss you. Your glow is as bright, even brighter than the blue. In Darklight you shine, while the board is Core.
Also. Holy- a hell lot of votes land on ZU/Fresh?! O_o
Post by: Tiruin on March 26, 2013, 09:58:50 pm
alamoes
Son, you're really being stubborn here.alamoes:I know that I can win when I'm dead, but it would be no fun if I'm out on the first day.Fair enough. Also, try not to bandwagon in the future, as it's quite scummy. Would you be happy with Freshman being lynched if the day ended right this instant?
Additionally, you have no votes on you currently. As long as you keep answering questions and start asking them, it should stay that way, so I wouldn't be so worried about being the D1 lynch.
Yeah, I know I'm probably safe, but still, probably is an unsure word. If Freshman was lynched, I would probably be fine with it, but I'd rather have his answers first. If he is a town, I'd have my regrets, but still, the game must go on. And to lynch a random guy is better than not lynching at all. I'm still tempted to pull out random.org for that.
Why random, when you can scumhunt for information? Why are you probably fine with it - probably because you know he's town and are giving weak reasons to forward it?
And you pull random org because you want to see someone - preferably anyone - lynched? Dear me.
Who are you most suspicious of, at the moment. And what are your general reads on everyone. Be detailed, give a list, and sort. Because you really seem to be going gung-ho on the vote there in a very carefree way.
Post by: Tiruin on March 26, 2013, 09:59:23 pm
Post by: Vector on March 26, 2013, 10:03:42 pm
Anyway.
Post by: Tiruin on March 26, 2013, 10:09:46 pm
We're all here for you Vector...And in the GD Sad thread too.
Post by: Vector on March 26, 2013, 10:13:57 pm
Eh.
Post by: zombie urist on March 26, 2013, 10:28:27 pm
Post by: The Soldier on March 27, 2013, 01:57:09 am
Unvote. Gotta let ZU catch up. I'll ask you the same question as freshman, however: what type of item would you be most afraid of the scum having? (blocks, redirects, ...)
Hapah: Makes sense.
Tiruin & Ford: Does the teal text have a meaning? Skimming, I figured it was a link to a post, but I guess not...
Post by: Tiruin on March 27, 2013, 03:11:52 am
Tiruin & Ford: Does the teal text have a meaning? Skimming, I figured it was a link to a post, but I guess not...Tis' me guessing he's substituting blue...which, technically indicates his suspicion. Though, Teal is an informal color :P
@ZU: Same question to you. Let's say you've a protect - under what circumstances are you going to pick your target, and why?
Post by: notquitethere on March 27, 2013, 06:11:22 am
It looks to me that your non-Fresh questions don't have much pressure at all.I see pressure as an iterative process: I ask a question, and then pressure is applied to the response. Not everyone has responded to me, and of those that have, some of the answers have been reasonable and not given much to sink my teeth into.
Quote
The approach I'm trying this time is to send out feelers to everyone, and follow up more seriously on the more questionable responses. One danger I'll try to be alert to is that with so many players, a danger might be in losing track of whether someone has properly replied or not.Hapah, I like to address everyone in the random vote/question stage. In one of my previous games a player took umbrage with this. Is it better to focus on one or a handful of individuals at the start, or try and talk to everyone?I don't think there is a "wrong" answer, but I'd say focus on a handful is the better option. You can either throw everyone a line and hope that something interesting comes back, or focus on a few and make something interesting surface. What do you think?
The Soldier
Thanks for clear response. If I've understood you correctly, if we discover somebody picked Warrior, then we'd have very good grounds for suspicion. Enough for a lynch?
NQT: If you could remove one item from the game, what would it be?Hmm... let's have a look... maybe the Vorpal Sword? It's a powerful item in the hands of scum. I like it thematically and I'm glad it's included in the game set-up, but I'd hate for scum to actually have that sword.
Leafsnail
This is all valid but why are you answering Imperial Guardsman's question for him?It was more that I was using your question to him as a segue into a more in depth question to ask you. Which you haven't answered.
Imiknorris
That's as maybe, but Toaster certain counts votes during RVS. I don't think any harm was intended on your part, but my question wasn't rhetorical: how many votes would a person need on them in the RVS before it was reasonable to suspect bandwagoning?Incidentally, I know this is the RVS, but you do realise that you're the third person to 'randomly' vote me (with none of them unvoting). How many votes would I need on me in the RVS before I start throwing around accusations of bandwagoning?I don't count votes during RVS.
Vector
Does Dakarian's scumhunting bible really work? It looks like a pretty lousy way of going about things; maybe I'm just not comfortable with so much faked-certainty.
My feeling is that it's difficult [to tell newb flails from scum tells], and honestly easier if whoever's playing is pretty self-conscious. In that case, it's easy to differentiate, because you can beat the scumtells out of townie noobs pretty fast. People who don't care... you pretty much just have to lynch them, or hope that the scumteam is experienced and impatient enough to take 'em out (looking at Pandar's Org NK in NSBM).Looking at our more flailing friends in this current game, are there any stand-out features which suggest newb-town over newb-scum or vice versa?
Zrk2
I'm generally quite conservative. Seeing as redirects, blocks and whatnot tend to run rampant in role-heavy games I think a less powerful reusable ability would be more useful, especially since even if a oneshot isn't redirected my read may be wrong.Given the nature of the set up, how much should we trust the results of Inspects?
Imperial Guardsman
Could you answer this (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=124225.msg4132072#msg4132072) question please.
alamoes
Can you confirm that you understand the concept of OMGUS, as per my explanation here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=124225.msg4132251#msg4132251)?
zombie urist
Why'd you think Fresh bailed out?
Post by: Vector on March 27, 2013, 06:24:24 am
I don't know, maybe I'm just posting stuff for shits and giggles! I'm sure that fucking up the newbies with my three years of experience is the best use of my time. No, wait--I'm sure that I haven't thought through optimal playstyle for beginners at any point, and that I don't reflect on what I'm posting before I post it.
Humility, dear.
On the other hand, that style is Dakarian's style. It is not the style that I play, nor is it a style I even can play all that coherently, but I do think it is the most direct route into playing this game well.
No, I don't know who of the newbs is the most scummy or not scummy right now; the battle in the middle of the scene isn't always the most important thing to focus on. So I'm not wasting my computational power on something that everyone else is taking care of anyway. They don't need 11 ICs.
Post by: notquitethere on March 27, 2013, 06:42:06 am
Post by: alamoes on March 27, 2013, 09:46:55 am
alamoes
Can you confirm that you understand the concept of OMGUS, as per my explanation here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=124225.msg4132251#msg4132251)?
Yep, one of the first articles I read on the wiki. I figured I had time to change my answer later, which I do.
EBWOP
alamoesSon, you're really being stubborn here.alamoes:I know that I can win when I'm dead, but it would be no fun if I'm out on the first day.Fair enough. Also, try not to bandwagon in the future, as it's quite scummy. Would you be happy with Freshman being lynched if the day ended right this instant?
Additionally, you have no votes on you currently. As long as you keep answering questions and start asking them, it should stay that way, so I wouldn't be so worried about being the D1 lynch.
Yeah, I know I'm probably safe, but still, probably is an unsure word. If Freshman was lynched, I would probably be fine with it, but I'd rather have his answers first. If he is a town, I'd have my regrets, but still, the game must go on. And to lynch a random guy is better than not lynching at all. I'm still tempted to pull out random.org for that.
Why random, when you can scumhunt for information? Why are you probably fine with it - probably because you know he's town and are giving weak reasons to forward it?
And you pull random org because you want to see someone - preferably anyone - lynched? Dear me.
Who are you most suspicious of, at the moment. And what are your general reads on everyone. Be detailed, give a list, and sort. Because you really seem to be going gung-ho on the vote there in a very carefree way.
I don't know who it would be, but it probably is not the soldier, because he started his vote on the noob, me. I doubt the mafia would do something so isolated like that.
Post by: Captain Ford on March 27, 2013, 11:02:28 am
Not-so-beginner's Mafia, Ford.Yeah, I guess it's more until I get my bearings (I can see you're in the same boat). That and the stuff I directed at freshman isn't applicable to ZU. I might revote ZU later, but I'm not going to leave a vote on him if I haven't left him something he can respond to.
Unvote. I need a little time.
I ended up on freshman because I was taking a close look at The Soldier, and I stared at freshman's answer for a while thinking, "I don't want to bandwagon a newbie to the point of overload, but with an answer like that, he can't not be scum."
*sigh* I hope freshman will join a BM sometime, but after this I hope he understands if we discourage him from joining any other games.
alamoes:
I don't know who it would be, but it probably is not the soldier, because he started his vote on the noob, me. I doubt the mafia would do something so isolated like that.That doesn't really tell you much. He voted you randomly. That's why we call the start of the game RVS (Random Vote Stage).
I'd highly recommend joining a BM at the first chance you get. I think you can do this well, but you need more confidence and the learning curve isn't nearly as sharp in one of those.
Also, what's the problem you're having with trimming down quotes? I see you did the bolding thing again. See how I trimmed down your response in the quote above? I always do this by quoting the entire post and deleting the stuff that isn't relevant. Are you worried about being accused of altering someone else's quote?
Post by: zombie urist on March 27, 2013, 11:18:49 am
I don't know who it would be, but it probably is not the soldier, because he started his vote on the noob, me. I doubt the mafia would do something so isolated like that.What do you mean by isolated?
alamoesThis looks like a time-waster question.
Can you confirm that you understand the concept of OMGUS, as per my explanation here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=124225.msg4132251#msg4132251)?
zombie uristNo idea.
Why'd you think Fresh bailed out?
Unvote. Gotta let ZU catch up. I'll ask you the same question as freshman, however: what type of item would you be most afraid of the scum having? (blocks, redirects, ...)Extra kills. Also randomizations are annoying.
@ZU: Same question to you. Let's say you've a protect - under what circumstances are you going to pick your target, and why?Probably the towniest person.
Post by: notquitethere on March 27, 2013, 11:33:55 am
So, following up on a previously unanswered question is time wasting now, is it?alamoesThis looks like a time-waster question.
Can you confirm that you understand the concept of OMGUS, as per my explanation here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=124225.msg4132251#msg4132251)?
Quote from: zombie urist
Not even the smallest idea? I find this lack of curiousity astounding, especially given how scummy your predecessor came across as.zombie uristNo idea.
Why'd you think Fresh bailed out?
Post by: Zrk2 on March 27, 2013, 12:22:29 pm
How long do you intend to spend noob-sniping throughout this game, given that we have a lot of noobs and it is indeed difficult to spread one's attention very far? Furthermore, how will you differentiate noob-town and noob-scum?
Probably by looking at RVS questions and pure number of attacks. I'm rarely (even less than can be expected statistically) scum or third party, so when I am I tend to ask RVS questions about what others would do in that position. Furthermore noobs may construct poor arguments, but they still make them, so a lack of arguments would be the other factor I use to differentiate noob-town from boon-scum.
Zrk2I'm generally quite conservative. Seeing as redirects, blocks and whatnot tend to run rampant in role-heavy games I think a less powerful reusable ability would be more useful, especially since even if a oneshot isn't redirected my read may be wrong.Given the nature of the set up, how much should we trust the results of Inspects?
Inspects are never a sure thing, but if push came to shove I would trust one, unless I had overwhelming evidence that it was incorrect. However, given even average play I don't think enough evidence could be compiled to convince me it was wrong.
alamoes:I know that I can win when I'm dead, but it would be no fun if I'm out on the first day.Fair enough. Also, try not to bandwagon in the future, as it's quite scummy. Would you be happy with Freshman being lynched if the day ended right this instant?
Additionally, you have no votes on you currently. As long as you keep answering questions and start asking them, it should stay that way, so I wouldn't be so worried about being the D1 lynch.
Yeah, I know I'm probably safe, but still, probably is an unsure word. If Freshman was lynched, I would probably be fine with it, but I'd rather have his answers first. If he is a town, I'd have my regrets, but still, the game must go on. And to lynch a random guy is better than not lynching at all. I'm still tempted to pull out random.org for that.
Unvote, vote Alamoes. Really? You can't find any reason to vote for someone? In addition, let's consider your posts, shall we?
When did I vote the first time? Anyways, I'll vote for the soldier, since he is voting for me.
Casual OMGUS, nice, even though you claim to have read the article on them, or did you read said article after this post?
I know it may be bad form, but who would you guys rather me vote against? He's going down regardless, it seems. If enough people give me a good reason to vote otherwise I will change my vote.
Again here we see a casual disregard for where you vote goes. Definitely not a townie action. If you are town, your vote is your biggest and most trustworthy weapon, and you shouldn't throw it away like this. If you are scum, then you don't really care what is done with it, leading to posts like this.
I'm pretty sure I'm sure I'm not voting for myself though. I'll unvote the soldier, solving both issues. Freshman because he is the guy targeted by the most.
More disregard for where your vote ends up, plus bandwagoning. I don't like it. It's lazy and scummy.
Alamoes has exhibited a repeated lack of concern over where his vote ends up, beyond even that which could be expected of a noob, and therefore I believe he is scum.
Post by: The Soldier on March 27, 2013, 01:30:32 pm
NQT: Not exactly. The fact that Random exists means townies can easily be stuck as warriors. During an inventory claim, I'd look closely at their claimed uncommon item, to see if it can be confirmed. In short, no I would not lynch someone just for claiming warrior, but I would pay more attention to them.
Post by: Imperial Guardsman on March 27, 2013, 01:33:26 pm
zombieurist
Post by: Imperial Guardsman on March 27, 2013, 01:39:37 pm
I swear these things jump whenever I close my eyes for an extended period of time. Blargh.1. derp
That one GuardsmanVote:freshmaniscoolmanYou're doing it wrong.
dodging questions, suspicious, etc
i really think he might be scum.
You should put the person's name (or a shorter version of their name, as long as who it is is understood) in red, not the Vote itself.
Also, putting quotes and reasoning along with (as in response to) said quote/post helps identify which you're talking about. Because you're pointing at thin air here.
Alsoalso, you're not giving Freshman something to 'bite onto', per se. Mafia is also of a conversational game. How is this even scumhunting when you're giving a one-way liner?
Also3: How do you think you'll do this when town doesn't even know each other? (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=124225.msg4132785#msg4132785)
AlsoIV: You...seem to have the intention to vote Freshman, but redden the 'Vote'. Then you FoS him...
Err, is there anything you're misunderstanding?
AlsoV:Y me?Imperial: I can see you got my point. Unvote. Now tell me, if you were scum, which of the other players would you want on your team?People like tiruin, vector, freshman, etc
alamoesI know it may be bad form, but who would you guys rather me vote against? He's going down regardless, it seems. If enough people give me a good reason to vote otherwise I will change my vote.Oh dear. He's going down regardless? Hm. You know, nothing is sound in stone until the day ends (or usually near day end, wherein the votes show where people's thinking lies in who is scum)
Also, why would we persuade you to change your vote - what are you doing about it-...I need to look over everyone to adjust my vote accordingly. My internet is very bad today. I'm just sitting here waiting for posts to load.@_@
alamoes: How much mafia experience do you have? Do you feel confident about your chances of winning.
It is my first internet mafia game *ever*. I believe that I will be executed fairly soon.
Oh no bro. This is not how you do these things! This reminds me of that first regular game I got into from the BM - died hilariously at D1 as a martyr...even if Martyr wasn't my role.
Dude. You do not do these things. Lynching yourself is a baaaad idea. If you've no information to give (but the possibility that your roleflip = town) then why bother lynching yourself? It. Wastes. A. Town. Weapon. The Lynch.
...Goodness. It took my the entirety of typing the above (and then skimming the following pages) to notice that you're probably quoting and not voting yourself.
Aaaand now you target Freshman (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=124225.msg4133380#msg4133380) because he's being voted by most. Why will you change that later, and on what conditions will you change it?
Why'd you vote him in the first place - y'know, other than that reason.
Sifting back to the everyone else now :/ Sorry newbies, but those caught my eye first.
PPE: Everyone after Ford's nice cake comment. Because cake :LThe Soldier:Oh Teal. How I miss you. Your glow is as bright, even brighter than the blue. In Darklight you shine, while the board is Core.
Also. Holy- a hell lot of votes land on ZU/Fresh?! O_o
2.assist the town by weeding out scum
3. because you are one of the most experienced people in the game
also, freshman might have quit because he was scum, i think he realized his impending doom, quit, and let zombieurist fill his role so the heat would come off of him!
Post by: Urist Imiknorris on March 27, 2013, 01:59:26 pm
I'm also going to need a replacement.
Post by: Zrk2 on March 27, 2013, 02:00:08 pm
Post by: Imperial Guardsman on March 27, 2013, 02:06:56 pm
1. derpVote:freshmaniscoolmanYou're doing it wrong.
dodging questions, suspicious, etc
i really think he might be scum.
1
You should put the person's name (or a shorter version of their name, as long as who it is is understood) in red, not the Vote itself.
Also, putting quotes and reasoning along with (as in response to) said quote/post helps identify which you're talking about. Because you're pointing at thin air here.
Alsoalso, you're not giving Freshman something to 'bite onto', per se. Mafia is also of a conversational game. How is this even scumhunting when you're giving a one-way liner?
Also3: How do you think you'll do this when town doesn't even know each other? (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=124225.msg4132785#msg4132785) 2
AlsoIV: You...seem to have the intention to vote Freshman, but redden the 'Vote'. Then you FoS him...
Err, is there anything you're misunderstanding?
AlsoV:Y me? 3Imperial: I can see you got my point. Unvote. Now tell me, if you were scum, which of the other players would you want on your team?People like tiruin, vector, freshman, etc
2.assist the town by weeding out scum
3. because you are one of the most experienced people in the game
also, freshman might have quit because he was scum, i think he realized his impending doom, quit, and let zombieurist fill his role so the heat would come off of him!
[/quote]
Post by: Hapah on March 27, 2013, 02:10:18 pm
1.) No edits!
2.) Preview button.
Post by: Vector on March 27, 2013, 02:48:55 pm
I guess what I was asking was whether you had any concrete evidence to games where this approach had netted a town win. I don't actually want to waste your time by asking you to trawl back through the archives or anything, just whether there was a game off the top of your head.
Oh, that's a very different question.
I can't think of anything off the top of my head where the entire town used exactly this technique and won, but seriously, you should look at any of the games Dakarian played town in (there's surely some in the notable game archive). Dakarian was unlynchable. You just... couldn't. He usually led the town to victory. Absolutely fantastic player.
Post by: Captain Ford on March 27, 2013, 02:57:28 pm
Personally, I find a lot of noobtells and towntells in his posts. I've not seen a single thing that makes him scummy in my book.
Zombie Urist: I'd like you to address this:
Freshmaniscoolman:What item would you be most worried about scum having?I don't think it's been said yet, but this is incredibly paranoid. You can only acquire items randomly in this game (aside from starting items), so the idea of acquiring a specific item is absurd. (unless I'm missing something)
Why do you care about that? Perhaps maybe you're asking me to get that specific item and worry me.
Showing contempt for the question and for RVS in general is not exactly a winning strategy, Freshman. Until I see something better from you, you really deserve this vote.
Imperial Guardsman: You are having some major troubles formatting your posts, I see. You are allowed to trim out the irrelevant parts of quotes, you know. (And please do)
Also, you missed this:
People like tiruin, vector, freshman, etc...why freshman?
Post by: Captain Ford on March 27, 2013, 03:35:41 pm
Spoiler: Teal (click to show/hide)
Zrk2: Adding to the above:
For someone who said "we should go light on the newbies", you certainly came at Alamoes pretty hard.
I'm really not going to be surprised if he drops out now. (Please don't, Alamoes, you can deal with this!)
Urist Imiknorris:
That is the single wrongest theory I've heard.If you weren't dropping out, I'd ask you to explain why. Heck, I want you to explain anyway, if you've got the time.
Post by: Zrk2 on March 27, 2013, 03:44:41 pm
Zrk2: Adding to the above:
For someone who said "we should go light on the newbies", you certainly came at Alamoes pretty hard.
I'm really not going to be surprised if he drops out now. (Please don't, Alamoes, you can deal with this!)
I did. My main issue is that despite being repeatedly told he needs to come up with a reason for placing his vote, and not throwing it away he has made no visible effort to do so, so I'm calling him out on it. Consider it a pressure vote. I doubt he'll be lynched today, but he still needs to put some visible effort in. I am all for easing the newbies in, but at some point we need to force them to stand on their own two feet. It is unfair to expect a brilliantly written comprehensive argument supporting his placement of his vote, but a line or two justifying its' placement, or even a placement of it, is not too much to expect.
Post by: Teneb on March 27, 2013, 03:46:10 pm
Post by: zombie urist on March 27, 2013, 04:00:38 pm
Zrk2: I believe you're wrong. If Alamoes was scum, he'd have teammates coaching him. He doesn't look coached. Freshman is (was) far more likely to be scum because of his relative silence. There are things missing from his posts that I would expect to see, and I feel like I'm only hearing part of the conversation.Why are you defending him? Alamoes
Personally, I find a lot of noobtells and towntells in his posts. I've not seen a single thing that makes him scummy in my book.
Zombie Urist: I'd like you to address this:
Freshmaniscoolman:Ok. I don't really see contempt but whatever.What item would you be most worried about scum having?I don't think it's been said yet, but this is incredibly paranoid. You can only acquire items randomly in this game (aside from starting items), so the idea of acquiring a specific item is absurd. (unless I'm missing something)
Why do you care about that? Perhaps maybe you're asking me to get that specific item and worry me.
Showing contempt for the question and for RVS in general is not exactly a winning strategy, Freshman. Until I see something better from you, you really deserve this vote.
Zombie Urist1. The previous question was kindof a time-waster question too IMO. So yeah.So, following up on a previously unanswered question is time wasting now, is it?alamoesThis looks like a time-waster question.
Can you confirm that you understand the concept of OMGUS, as per my explanation here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=124225.msg4132251#msg4132251)?Quote from: zombie uristNot even the smallest idea? I find this lack of curiousity astounding, especially given how scummy your predecessor came across as.zombie uristNo idea.
Why'd you think Fresh bailed out?
2. Nope.
Post by: Captain Ford on March 27, 2013, 04:05:18 pm
Alamoes: Ask three different people questions about things they have written, or I will vote you.
PPE: ZU
I'm defending him because I don't think he's going to be able to defend himself.
Post by: Teneb on March 27, 2013, 04:16:14 pm
How long do you intend to spend noob-sniping throughout this game, given that we have a lot of noobs and it is indeed difficult to spread one's attention very far? Furthermore, how will you differentiate noob-town and noob-scum?I intend to tell noob-town and noob-scum apart by questioning them. Newbies are difficult to read because they are newbies, and thus more attention should be paid when questioning them.
IG:
2.assist the town by weeding out scumAnd how do you plan to weed out scum?
also, freshman might have quit because he was scum, i think he realized his impending doom, quit, and let zombieurist fill his role so the heat would come off of him!Unless you are able to read freshman's mind, or freshman himself comes here and tell us why he quit, there is no way to know. Speculating about this leads nowhere. If you think he was scum, question ZU.
ZU: I think you messed up a quote and voted yourself.
Ford:
I'm defending him because I don't think he's going to be able to defend himself.Wouldn't you want to, maybe, try to find out if someone is town or not before attempting to defend them?
Post by: Vector on March 27, 2013, 04:18:30 pm
Post by: Captain Ford on March 27, 2013, 04:19:23 pm
Wouldn't you want to, maybe, try to find out if someone is town or not before attempting to defend them?Been there, done that. I've stated my reasons quite clearly.
Post by: Vector on March 27, 2013, 04:20:53 pm
Post by: Captain Ford on March 27, 2013, 04:52:43 pm
To add to that, DS, I also haven't done all his work for him. At this point, I'm more concerned about him dropping out entirely, and I'm hoping to prevent that.
Aside from that, he's not in a position to defend himself from those accusations. Do you honestly expect him to suddenly say, "that's not fair, I'm learning!" I sure as hell don't. If he did, I'd wonder who suddenly started playing for him.
He probably has no clue how to respond to what Zrk2 said. He's probably pretty certain he's screwed now. He'd be wrong, of course.
Alamoes: The worst thing you could do right now is quit. Even if the whole town jumps on you, you'll learn more by losing than you would by quitting.
Post by: zombie urist on March 27, 2013, 05:06:22 pm
I will vote Captain Ford instead.
Post by: Zrk2 on March 27, 2013, 05:07:55 pm
Post by: Hapah on March 27, 2013, 05:11:51 pm
HapahI understand that. I understand the questions to Fresh as well, for the most part. But I don't see the possible angles of attack in some posts, like you questions to ImpGuard here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?action=post;quote=4132072;topic=124225.90), or your question to DS here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?action=post;quote=4131907;topic=124225.90). Could you describe the sorts of replies you might find suspicious?It looks to me that your non-Fresh questions don't have much pressure at all.I see pressure as an iterative process: I ask a question, and then pressure is applied to the response. Not everyone has responded to me, and of those that have, some of the answers have been reasonable and not given much to sink my teeth into.
This is a really opportunistic jab, NQT. If you replaced in for someone, can you honestly say you'd speculate on why they left? There's no point to it.Quote from: zombie uristNot even the smallest idea? I find this lack of curiousity astounding, especially given how scummy your predecessor came across as.zombie uristNo idea.
Why'd you think Fresh bailed out?
Well put.Zrk2: Adding to the above:I did. My main issue is that despite being repeatedly told he needs to come up with a reason for placing his vote, and not throwing it away he has made no visible effort to do so, so I'm calling him out on it. Consider it a pressure vote. I doubt he'll be lynched today, but he still needs to put some visible effort in. I am all for easing the newbies in, but at some point we need to force them to stand on their own two feet. It is unfair to expect a brilliantly written comprehensive argument supporting his placement of his vote, but a line or two justifying its' placement, or even a placement of it, is not too much to expect.
For someone who said "we should go light on the newbies", you certainly came at Alamoes pretty hard.
I'm really not going to be surprised if he drops out now. (Please don't, Alamoes, you can deal with this!)
Post by: Zrk2 on March 27, 2013, 06:08:43 pm
Well put.
Why thank you.
Post by: Leafsnail on March 27, 2013, 07:06:13 pm
It was more that I was using your question to him as a segue into a more in depth question to ask you. Which you haven't answered.That was a question for me? I assumed it was rhetorical. The answer is yes - if someone jumps on someone only after it seems like they're doomed. It's a bit like bussing, but bussing implies that you're the one consigning your partner to death, wheras this is more like damage limitation for an already dying partner.
Leafsnail. You've been gone for a while. . . what do you think of everything that's going on?I think a lot of this what's going on is intensely irrelevant. This has made the game kindof a chore to read - so much stuff that just doesn't matter bouncing back and forth endlessly. So I'm going to take this back to The Fundamental Question that does matter (and request that everyone else try to think about this question a bit more)
Who in this game is actually scum?
I believe I have an answer to this question: Zrk2.
His entire contribution to this game has been white noise. I cannot see anything of his that has been aimed at answering the fundamental question above. He'll just ask a question and answer a question and get into a minor quibble about mafia theory.
His vote on Alamoes was the one thing he's done that I thought looked ok. But he backed away from it as soon as Captain Ford made a criticism of him (post #210) - apparently the Alamoes vote was "a pressure vote", and Zrk2 doesn't expect Alamoes to get lynched today. There are three issues I see with this:
1. A pressure vote which you call a pressure vote carries no weight at all. This seems very obvious to me, and I don't think Zrk2 would miss this fact.
2. If we are to believe Zrk2's answer to Captain Ford, and the vote on Alamoes isn't a vote against someone he thinks is scum, then Zrk2 has done nothing to find scum at all for the entire game. This would make it yet another post from Zrk2 that doesn't even try to address the important matters, and which instead makes him look like he's doing something.
3. His initial vote does not actually look like a pressure vote. Thus, I think there is a strong chance that he was in fact backpeddling in post #210 - he noticed there was a minor contradiction in his earlier actions, so he tried to retroactively change the intended meaning of his Alamoes vote. For me, this retroactive changing of motive is an extremely strong scumtell (I was caught doing it myself a few games ago, even).
My conclusion is that Zrk2 is scum. He's attempting to be seen as an active, contributing player, but his failure to address the important question and his backpedaling over his Alamoes vote exposes the fact that his primary objective is to avoid drawing attention.
Post by: Vector on March 27, 2013, 07:13:47 pm
Tiruin and zombieurist, your reads on everyone please.
Post by: Zrk2 on March 27, 2013, 07:45:06 pm
-snip-
I didn't expect him to be lynched because he was only facing one vote, as opposed to ZU who I noted had significantly more.
And why can't a pressure vote be a pressure vote if called one?
Post by: Leafsnail on March 27, 2013, 07:50:36 pm
Post by: The Soldier on March 27, 2013, 08:09:43 pm
RE: Special Colors, fair enough. What exactly did you get out of the reactions?
RE: The 'most dangerous item for scum to have' question: Uh, ZU already answered that, and he can't exactly read freshman's mind. Seems like a weak voting reason.
ZU:
Alright. Reading Roguelike 2 gave me nightmares. Why randomizes over standard redirects?
Zrk2:
Leafsnail brings up a good point about your contributions. Rereading, your reaction to Deathsword's answer (and even the question itself, in fact) here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=124225.msg4132350#msg4132350) strike me as very odd. You randomvote him with an irrelevant question, then seem put-out when he gives a similarly throwaway answer. What's more, you don't move your vote until post #199, when you vote alamoes (something Leafsnail covered well). This is despite the fact that you were called on leaving your vote on DS despite having no followup. Furthermore, you didn't even acknowledge that you were called on it. Did you hope you could just slip away?
I took the liberty of reading through your posts, to be sure Leafsnail wasn't underplaying your contributions. I have to agree that if you take away your vote on alamoes, you've done literally nothing constructive as of yet. As such, I believe my vote has found a home for the night. Zrk2.
Post by: Captain Ford on March 27, 2013, 08:16:58 pm
A vote has pressure because the person who's being voted thinks "shit I'm going to be lynched" and is thus pressured. If they know it's not an "I am going to do my best to lynch you" vote then there's no pressure.I disagree. You can call your vote whatever you want, but the reason it applies pressure is because of the attention you're giving them. Whether for pressure or for a lynch, it's your steely-eyed gaze that exerts that pressure, and the knowledge that if they screw up, that pressure vote will quickly become a lynch vote.
And we are talking about Alamoes here. No disrespect to him, but I think you could pressure him just by looking at him funny.
Post by: Captain Ford on March 27, 2013, 08:39:55 pm
Post by: Captain Ford on March 27, 2013, 08:46:14 pm
Captain Ford:1. Amusement, mostly.
RE: Special Colors, fair enough. What exactly did you get out of the reactions?
RE: The 'most dangerous item for scum to have' question: Uh, ZU already answered that, and he can't exactly read freshman's mind. Seems like a weak voting reason.
2. I called the original answer paranoid, and I wanted his commentary on it, since it was my primary reason for suspecting freshman (and thus him). He didn't talk about that part, actually. I'm letting my vote rest on him now mostly on gut feeling.
...that and I don't actually know ZU all that well, so I'm not sure how to go about questioning him...
Post by: Toaster on March 27, 2013, 09:19:09 pm
The Soldier:
notquitethere: Urist Imiknorris, Hapah
Vector:
Captain Ford: Zombie Urist
Hapah:
Urist Imiknorris:
Deathsword:
Zrk2: Leafsnail, Vector, The Soldier
Leafsnail:
Imperial Guardsman: notquitethere
Tiruin:
alamoes: Tiruin, Zrk2
Zombie Urist: alamoes, Imperial Guardsman, Captain Ford
Not Voting: Deathsword
Day 1 will last until Thursday, 3/28 at 11 PM EST.
Urist Imiknorris has requested a replacement. Okami No Rei has been PMed.
Please do not edit your posts.
Post by: Zrk2 on March 27, 2013, 09:34:34 pm
Zrk2 has a real talent for getting mislynched. I've read a couple of his previous games and if anything, he seems like a better townie than in any of his older town games. I think he's just not very good at this.
I am admittedly quite poor at this, but that is of course no excuse. If you honestly feel I am scum then vote for me, fine. That said, this seems a little bandwagony.
Zrk2:
Leafsnail brings up a good point about your contributions. Rereading, your reaction to Deathsword's answer (and even the question itself, in fact) here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=124225.msg4132350#msg4132350) strike me as very odd. You randomvote him with an irrelevant question, then seem put-out when he gives a similarly throwaway answer. What's more, you don't move your vote until post #199, when you vote alamoes (something Leafsnail covered well). This is despite the fact that you were called on leaving your vote on DS despite having no followup. Furthermore, you didn't even acknowledge that you were called on it. Did you hope you could just slip away?
I took the liberty of reading through your posts, to be sure Leafsnail wasn't underplaying your contributions. I have to agree that if you take away your vote on alamoes, you've done literally nothing constructive as of yet. As such, I believe my vote has found a home for the night. Zrk2.
Oh bullshit. I picked my RVS and asked an open ended question. He responded, and I was not satisfied. I made that clear and asked for more. I did not get it, but the game was moving on and the period in which it was useful had passed, so I moved on to other techniques.
Toaster, you're missingThe Soldier voting for me.
Post by: Okami No Rei on March 27, 2013, 09:58:57 pm
Vector -
A: You're always scum.
B: You voted Zrk2 at the drop of a hat. A little eager to lynch, are we?
Post by: Toaster on March 27, 2013, 10:05:58 pm
Toaster, you're missingThe Soldier voting for me.
Fixed.
Post by: Leafsnail on March 27, 2013, 10:13:37 pm
Zrk2 has a real talent for getting mislynched. I've read a couple of his previous games and if anything, he seems like a better townie than in any of his older town games. I think he's just not very good at this.He's made zero contributions towards finding scum and has contradicted himself. I can't see him as a "better townie" than anything, really.
Why don't y'all throw me some questions so I can focus my reading when I get to this game?Ok.
1. Have you read my case against Zrk2 yet?
2. Why aren't you voting for Zrk2?
As for your vote, I'm going to go ahead and say it's stupid and that Bay 12's entire attitude to bandwagoning is kindof silly. At the moment we're in a situation where if someone makes a convincing case against another person you cannot say "yes, I agree with that case" and vote for the person because of our "you can never join a wagon without being scum" policy. This means that days end with a few votes sprinkled onto random people (allowing scum to easily manipulate the lynch) rather than decisive votes against people who have been shown to look scummy.
By all means attack my reasoning for going after Zrk2, but unless you can do that you shouldn't be harrassing people who have agreed with the reasoning and voted accordingly.
Post by: alamoes on March 27, 2013, 10:31:40 pm
I need to read the thread from beginning to end, I'll post again soon after that.
Post by: alamoes on March 27, 2013, 11:12:04 pm
Seeing as Okami has claimed vector is always Scum, I ask Vector.
How much experience in the game do you have as scum as an approximate number of victories? I'd like to know who I'm playing with here.
ZU, for what reason do you vote Captain Ford?
Deathsword, who do you think the most scummy person is?
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: alamoes on March 27, 2013, 11:18:15 pm
Post by: Okami No Rei on March 28, 2013, 12:22:06 am
1. Have you read my case against Zrk2 yet?I have now.
After reading the thread, the only directly scummy bit I find about Zrk's posts is this:
Even Vector mentioned that earlier.Appeal to authority. Also, making excuses.
Captain Ford's been quick to defend him. Possible candidate for scumbuddy.
2. Why aren't you voting for Zrk2?Because I'm re-reading the thread once again, with your case in mind, in order to determine if I agree with you.
As for your vote, I'm going to go ahead and say it's stupid and that Bay 12's entire attitude to bandwagoning is kindof silly. At the moment we're in a situation where if someone makes a convincing case against another person you cannot say "yes, I agree with that case" and vote for the person because of our "you can never join a wagon without being scum" policy. This means that days end with a few votes sprinkled onto random people (allowing scum to easily manipulate the lynch) rather than decisive votes against people who have been shown to look scummy.This is an excellent summary of the current B12 meta on bandwagons. May I quote you on this in other games?
By all means attack my reasoning for going after Zrk2, but unless you can do that you shouldn't be harrassing people who have agreed with the reasoning and voted accordingly.Harassing Vector? Me? I just put my vote on her because she's scum more often than not, and I wanted a good placeholder vote while analyzing everybody's reasoning.
Imperial Guardsmen - Have you been taking lessons from Org? I hope you realize that laconic posts tend to get people lynched early around here.
Spoiler: EVE (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: OOC (click to show/hide)
Post by: Tiruin on March 28, 2013, 12:24:05 am
Catching up due to timezones.
Post by: Okami No Rei on March 28, 2013, 12:50:50 am
If you honestly feel I am scum then vote for me, fine.Okay. Zrk2
He hasn't been particularly productive, Leaf, so the points you cited do have merit. If he ends up flipping town, I hope you don't mind if I push you hard on the morrow.
Tiruin - We're up at the same time. Imagine that. You going to vote Zrk2 as well, seeing as how Leaf's deconstructed the usual onus against weak bandwagoning?
Post by: Tiruin on March 28, 2013, 01:16:39 am
Tiruin - We're up at the same time. Imagine that. You going to vote Zrk2 as well, seeing as how Leaf's deconstructed the usual onus against weak bandwagoning?Err...no? I'm not voting for Zrk2 (Well, at the last time of my post, his posts prior anyway), due to him reeking of flail. Flailing Zrk2 flails, and its very hard to get his alignment that way, so I'm poking at other people instead who wish to capitulate on blatant weaknesses as that.
Also, you're GMT +8?
SRU - Still Reading Up.
Post by: Okami No Rei on March 28, 2013, 01:20:08 am
Post by: Tiruin on March 28, 2013, 02:46:29 am
Well... damn. That's an excellent point. I'll need to reread to confirm, but for now Zrk2.Honestly, I can't give an exact read on anyone as most of these (specifically those who posted recently/after I posted because they were just read up) are subject to change.
Tiruin and zombieurist, your reads on everyone please.
1. The Soldier - town-ish, hadn't had a chance to ask him personally, but his reasoning and intentions seem sincere and valid in their reasoning.
2. notquitethere - same as Soldier. I'm quite used to how a Logician posts now, and his analytical senses this period in time have been so far agreeable in the sense that they're not attempting to undermine a person, but go along the lines of sensible communication.
3. Vector - null, heading...still null. Recent post on Zrk is up for questioning, recent-er posts before that lean town. What made you vote Zrk?
4. Captain Ford - Town-ish. His reasoning, I see, is sincere. In that he's giving the benefit of the doubt to those which the majority suspects and his logic is agreeable.
5. Hapah - Town-ish. While his posts are lesser than most, they are detailed to the point and reek of intentions detailing open communication. Nothing I see in there which speaks of any ulterior motives.
6. Okami No Rei - null leaning scum; his intentions seem valid in reasoning, but how he posts them give ample space for thought. That one post wherein he voted for Zrk seems suspicious in the way that he states "if townflip, question Leaf" when he could be doing it currently. This also contradicts his read on Zrk earlier, being a one liner.
7. Deathsword - Null. Didn't do much reading on him, tbh.
8. Zrk2 - Null. While LS' argument is agreeable, he's still undergoing questioning. Its annoying me to get the feeling that Zrk has given up defending himself/scumhunting with a "If you honestly feel I am scum then vote for me, fine." though, but this still points towards null for me.
9. Leafsnail - Null. Truly, I'm quite unsure about him - he did state quite a compelling argument regarding Zrk but its missing some minor details; minor in a way that he isn't addressing these details. Town or scum can do that (argument), but I'm quite curious of why he didn't engage in questioning beforehand (while Time is an excuse, I'm poking at his post right there), or at least leaving Zrk with any questions to bite on. His use of 'psychological' statements worry me in the way that its replacing any kind of reasoning with an implied generality - something which irks me on the side of scum in how he states them. Mainly because he's not taking matters into his own hands (ie asking/communicating with target) but trying to get everyone else to lynch him.
10. Imperial Guardsman - Null.
11. Tiruin - Is me, I'm town.
12. alamoes - Null. Pulling lots of tells - indistinguishable from newbie/scum/town.
13. Freshman/zombie urist - currently receiving the flak the former has taken. While Freshman was...completely hard to read given his posts, he's reading null here.
Though I'm curious, why me of all people?
Imperial Guard
Y me?Imperial: I can see you got my point. Unvote. Now tell me, if you were scum, which of the other players would you want on your team?People like tiruin, vector, freshman, etc
Quote
3. because you are one of the most experienced people in the gameOh really now, explain how this would be reasonable at all.
Quote
also, freshman might have quit because he was scum, i think he realized his impending doom, quit, and let zombieurist fill his role so the heat would come off of him!...And do you have any conclusive evidence which tells you he's scum?
Ford
Zrk2: I believe you're wrong. If Alamoes was scum, he'd have teammates coaching him. He doesn't look coached. Freshman is (was) far more likely to be scum because of his relative silence. There are things missing from his posts that I would expect to see, and I feel like I'm only hearing part of the conversation.I disagree with this. Towntells, scumtells, noobtells. People can mess up anywhichway possible. While, yes, he may have teammates coaching him - said teammates wouldn't probably be there to post @QT or personally steer his course right for him.
Personally, I find a lot of noobtells and towntells in his posts. I've not seen a single thing that makes him scummy in my book.
While I do agree with his noobtell (of....voting himself.) His reasoning seems flawed in the sense of how he spends his vote.
What marks him scummy in your book btw?
Spoiler: Teal (click to show/hide)
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Leafsnail: You're prepared to out Zrk2 without asking him anything - leading only to a declarative post? Was that a definitive vote, or a pressure vote - and when did your suspicions rise on him?
While what you said is very agreeable, you don't seem to poke him on any of those which you've stated, but come up with a conclusion instead. I'm acting under the impression that people do mistakes, and while people commit mistakes - their intentions can me remarked on due to their personality.
Though...Zrk did comment on your post. And did nothing else but give a nearly blank statement. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=124225.msg4136176#msg4136176) Even if he did such, you really do believe enough on Zrk2 to try attempt to convince Okami (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=124225.msg4136488#msg4136488) on him? Followed by a justified push on what constitutes a bandwagon and the analogy behind it, Okami wasn't even bandwagoning anyone as Vector had no votes beforehand. Who were you talking about when you said
Quote
As for your vote, I'm going to go ahead and say it's stupid and that Bay 12's entire attitude to bandwagoning is kindof silly[...]Because the semantics point to Okami.
And lastly, why are you pointing to a psychological basis other than poking at your target with direct questions? What you said in relation with the bandwagon seems more of a justification without any kind of foundation - nobody remarked on a bandwagon that would compromise your post at all. Its agreeable, yeah, and can seemingly convince in itself, but why did you even state those ideas?
Quote
[...]At the moment we're in a situation where if someone makes a convincing case against another person you cannot say "yes, I agree with that case" and vote for the person because of our "you can never join a wagon without being scum" policy. This means that days end with a few votes sprinkled onto random people (allowing scum to easily manipulate the lynch) rather than decisive votes against people who have been shown to look scummy.Like this, for example. How in the world does this make sense, and why are you remarking on it? There is no policy, only an intangible line of thought that implies fear due to lack of reasoning - something which is easily cleared up later on. How does scum easily manipulate the lynch in this scenario?
Zrk2:
What do you think of LS' post regarding yourself; of LS' temperament regarding you, and of your target as scum. Since you've stated that you're pressure voting, who are your reads, and what was your intention of that pressure vote?
You haven't been poking on many others, I see. Why is that?
::)Zrk2 has a real talent for getting mislynched. I've read a couple of his previous games and if anything, he seems like a better townie than in any of his older town games. I think he's just not very good at this.
I am admittedly quite poor at this, but that is of course no excuse. If you honestly feel I am scum then vote for me, fine. That said, this seems a little bandwagony.
How is Ford's post there even a bandwagon. If not, then how is 'this' even a "little" bandwagon.
Quote
If you honestly feel I am scum then vote for me, fine.And then this. Why are you saying this? Do you have honestly have nothing else to give but this statement?
Explain, please.
Okami
[...]Second, why is B a compelling enough argument that you voted her when she said "for now"?
Vector -[...]
B: You voted Zrk2 at the drop of a hat. A little eager to lynch, are we?
Imperial Guardsmen - Have you been taking lessons from Org? I hope you realize that laconic posts tend to get people lynched early around here.And here, what is the reasoning behind laconic posts - is it in the intention of the poster, or how others view it?
Lastly. What.As for your vote, I'm going to go ahead and say it's stupid and that Bay 12's entire attitude to bandwagoning is kindof silly. At the moment we're in a situation where if someone makes a convincing case against another person you cannot say "yes, I agree with that case" and vote for the person because of our "you can never join a wagon without being scum" policy. This means that days end with a few votes sprinkled onto random people (allowing scum to easily manipulate the lynch) rather than decisive votes against people who have been shown to look scummy.This is an excellent summary of the current B12 meta on bandwagons. May I quote you on this in other games?
How is this an excellent summary of the generalized playerbase? People can tout the term of bandwagon on any person being voted by the majority for various reasons, and the only focus you give is on the weakest reason ever?
The "You can never join a wagon without being scum" is fallible. Insomuch as saying that you agree point blank without saying anything else is fallible. People have different tactics - scum want to appear town by poking at what is suspicious for them, and usually this works if the suspects have major quirks in their reasoning. Quirks enough, that they seem scum.
Zrk2, for me, has a distinct playstyle which is more confusing than playing, and judging by his posts (and mostly other posts in other boards), its how he plays.
You vote Zrk because...
That?If you honestly feel I am scum then vote for me, fine.Okay. Zrk2
He hasn't been particularly productive, Leaf, so the points you cited do have merit. If he ends up flipping town, I hope you don't mind if I push you hard on the morrow.
Explain how LS' post convinced you, and if that's the only determining factor which made you vote. Who else do you suspect, and why?
Also, here, (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=124225.msg4136680#msg4136680) you state the reasons behind how scummy you find Zrk, then vote him on what I quoted above.
Aiming for the easylynch there? How is Ford giving his opinion scummy, or at least a candidate for a scumbuddy? While, obviously the reasoning is damned if Zrk pops out scum, I'm under the impression that you're voting him just to see him lynched - why?
Cheers for curiosity.
Please do not edit your posts.
Quote
« Last Edit: March 27, 2013, 10:06:18 pm by Toaster »
:P
This is just me bringing in something that made me laugh.
Post by: Vector on March 28, 2013, 03:27:06 am
Vector -
A: You're always scum.
B: You voted Zrk2 at the drop of a hat. A little eager to lynch, are we?
A. Not this time.
B. The second vote on a player is not exactly definitive. This vote was the right one.
Seeing as Okami has claimed vector is always Scum, I ask Vector.
How much experience in the game do you have as scum as an approximate number of victories? I'd like to know who I'm playing with here.
Approximate number of victories? Uh. . . I dunno. Easier to count the number of losses, and to the best of my memory they'd fit on one hand over three years of playing (check BMI and IV, Rysith's Semi-Bastard, Pandar's BYOR, or the first Cybrid Mafia for some good examples of my victories as scum from the Notable Games Archive). I think I'm one of the subforum's leading scum players at the moment, since both Webadict and Pandarsenic seem to have retired. Leafsnail is also hot stuff, though.
He hasn't been particularly productive, Leaf, so the points you cited do have merit. If he ends up flipping town, I hope you don't mind if I push you hard on the morrow.
This is not only soft ("I hope you don't mind?" Really?) but reeks of lynch-chaining. I'm watching you.
3. Vector - null, heading...still null. Recent post on Zrk is up for questioning, recent-er posts before that lean town. What made you vote Zrk?
[...]
Though I'm curious, why me of all people?
I voted Zrk because Leafsnail's argument was a very strong one. And for other reasons, but you'll find out about those later.
As for you. . . you just happened to be the next step. I needed a lot of data out of you to help me narrow out the scumteam.
Post by: Tiruin on March 28, 2013, 03:39:43 am
Next step? Which parts of LS' argument was strong - he outlined what Zrk was doing, yes...was it what he stated about the bandwagon which persuaded you or something else?3. Vector - null, heading...still null. Recent post on Zrk is up for questioning, recent-er posts before that lean town. What made you vote Zrk?
[...]
Though I'm curious, why me of all people?
I voted Zrk because Leafsnail's argument was a very strong one. And for other reasons, but you'll find out about those later.
As for you. . . you just happened to be the next step. I needed a lot of data out of you to help me narrow out the scumteam.
Post by: Vector on March 28, 2013, 04:12:36 am
As for Leafsnail's outline, he provided a very clean case. The bandwagon post did not come until long after I'd voted Zrk, so no, Leafsnail's statement that I wasn't bandwagoning had absolutely nothing to do with my vote. White noise is one of the classical scumtells for more experienced players, and though I'm listening to your statements about Zrk being flaily town, he's not looking very good from over here.
However, Deathsword is also the only person not voting, and I don't think I've seen him in a while. I would like your reads very much, Deathsword.
Post by: notquitethere on March 28, 2013, 07:51:04 am
Ey, what did I miss?My question (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=124225.msg4134758#msg4134758). Again. If you want people to unvote you, you've got to respond to them.
Zombie Urist
1. The previous question was kindof a time-waster question too IMO. So yeah.I was trying to assertain whether he understood a concept fundamental to the game. Given his blatant OMGUS, it was highly relevant whether he knew what OMGUSing was or not.
2. Nope.
Are you always this laconic? More importantly, do you stand by the words and votes of Fresh?
Hapah
I understand that. I understand the questions to Fresh as well, for the most part. But I don't see the possible angles of attack in some posts, like you questions to ImpGuard here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?action=post;quote=4132072;topic=124225.90), or your question to DS here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?action=post;quote=4131907;topic=124225.90). Could you describe the sorts of replies you might find suspicious?Well for one, I find Imp's lack of a reply suspicious. Merely asking questions is sometimes enough to get started with. The questions to Imp and DS were posed to get an idea of their understanding of the set-up and hunting priorities. Pressure is important, but there are other things to be gained from questioning. I'd find a lot things potentially suspicious, including, for instance, any reply which either exaggerated or understated the importance of some game element.
I'd say something. I do take your point that idle speculation isn't necessarily very helpful. That said, when someone replaces I find it useful to know how they felt about their predecessor's game play. I've now asked ZU a more focused question to that effect, so thanks for the prod.Not even the smallest idea? I find this lack of curiousity astounding, especially given how scummy your predecessor came across as.This is a really opportunistic jab, NQT. If you replaced in for someone, can you honestly say you'd speculate on why they left? There's no point to it.
alamoes, it looks like your starting to ask more intelligent questions now. Could you explain what it is about Fresh/ZU that you find worthy of lynching?
Post by: Tiruin on March 28, 2013, 07:53:44 am
Yeah, next step. I'll explain on D2 if I'm still alive.Err, why not now? I was asking what you meant by next step...Because the meaning of that seems like you've a plan in mind.
Post by: Zrk2 on March 28, 2013, 10:43:53 am
Zrk2:
What do you think of LS' post regarding yourself; of LS' temperament regarding you, and of your target as scum. Since you've stated that you're pressure voting, who are your reads, and what was your intention of that pressure vote?
You haven't been poking on many others, I see. Why is that?
Reads? Okay. Let's see.
Tiruin: More town than not. Has been reasonably useful.
NotQuiteThere: Null
Vector: I don't like her leaping on me at the drop of a hat, but then I'm biased there.
Okami No Rei: Jumping on bandwagons isn't cool. Other than that I'm not sure. Might be scum.
Alamoes: I stand by my previous case.
Leafsnail: Doing well with the scumhunting. Presents a (somewhat) convincing case against me. Likely town.
Captain Ford: Null.
The Soldier: Leapt on my bandwagon and has been otherwise completely unremarkable. In fact the case presented against me applies to him to. Completely unremarkable. May be scum, or just new.
Hapah: Null.
Deathsword: Less productive than I would have liked when RVSed, but otherwise dull. More or less townish.
IG: Null.
Quote
::)Zrk2 has a real talent for getting mislynched. I've read a couple of his previous games and if anything, he seems like a better townie than in any of his older town games. I think he's just not very good at this.
I am admittedly quite poor at this, but that is of course no excuse. If you honestly feel I am scum then vote for me, fine. That said, this seems a little bandwagony.
How is Ford's post there even a bandwagon. If not, then how is 'this' even a "little" bandwagon.
What I mean is that Leafsnail showed up, presented his case, and voted for me. Fine. Then vector comes in, says she agrees with him, and votes for me. Okay. I can see her being swayed, but rarely does she go for the low-effort play. After that she claims to have other reasons:
Quote from: Vector
I voted Zrk because Leafsnail's argument was a very strong one. And for other reasons, but you'll find out about those later.
I'd like those now.
Then The Soldier leaps in with basically a "yeah, sounds good." That looks bandwagony to me, more so than Vectors'. See; "this" did look "a little" bandwagony.
Quote
QuoteIf you honestly feel I am scum then vote for me, fine.And then this. Why are you saying this? Do you have honestly have nothing else to give but this statement?
Explain, please.
I am rather fatalistic in mafia. It's a product of having been mislynched so many times. Also, I'm bad at srs bsns like mafia.
Post by: Toaster on March 28, 2013, 11:34:20 am
The Soldier:
notquitethere: Hapah
Vector:
Captain Ford: Zombie Urist
Hapah:
Okami No Rei:
Deathsword:
Zrk2: Leafsnail, Vector, The Soldier, Okami No Rei
Leafsnail: Tiruin
Imperial Guardsman: notquitethere
Tiruin:
alamoes: Zrk2
Zombie Urist: alamoes, Imperial Guardsman, Captain Ford
Not Voting: Deathsword
Day 1 will last until Thursday, 3/28 at 11 PM EST, about 10 1/2 hours from this post.
Post by: Vector on March 28, 2013, 02:25:46 pm
Yeah, next step. I'll explain on D2 if I'm still alive.Err, why not now? I was asking what you meant by next step...Because the meaning of that seems like you've a plan in mind.
What I mean is that Leafsnail showed up, presented his case, and voted for me. Fine. Then vector comes in, says she agrees with him, and votes for me. Okay. I can see her being swayed, but rarely does she go for the low-effort play. After that she claims to have other reasons:Quote from: VectorI voted Zrk because Leafsnail's argument was a very strong one. And for other reasons, but you'll find out about those later.
I'd like those now.
I'm gathering data. You're not getting anything more detailed than that until the experiment is over.
Post by: Tiruin on March 28, 2013, 03:12:33 pm
I'm gathering data. You're not getting anything more detailed than that until the experiment is over.*grumble grumble* :/
No hints?
Zrk2: So..you quoted my post. Ignored my other questions. And said that people are bandwagoning you when they (well, implied on one account, voting for the sake of voting on the other) followed a reasonably sensible argument. Wat.
Post by: Vector on March 28, 2013, 03:13:33 pm
Post by: Zrk2 on March 28, 2013, 03:32:02 pm
Post by: Vector on March 28, 2013, 03:33:09 pm
Post by: alamoes on March 28, 2013, 03:38:52 pm
Post by: Tiruin on March 28, 2013, 04:08:54 pm
Because ZU looks fairly scummy to me, I still pick him. I have to go though so until later that is my vote, maybe for the rest of the day.Don't forget to answer everything else that was asked of you prior to your non-PC typed post back there.
Why is he fairly scummy in comparison to his predecessor, and...how, exactly. To you. You can say "Oh that guy is scummy", yeah, but people will wonder why you're saying so for what reason - its best to detail that reason out so you could start a conversation somehow. Or just detail it.
Also we've about...~6 hours left from final votecount.
Post by: zombie urist on March 28, 2013, 04:49:43 pm
Are you always this laconic? More importantly, do you stand by the words and votes of Fresh?Yes, no.
ZU, for what reason do you vote Captain Ford?1. Passiveness
2. Defensiveness of alamoes
3. His reason for voting Fresh was most BS (almoes is a close second)
4. He didn't respond to the scroll of mail I sent him. >:(
ZU:Cuz randomizes are random and less predictable. Also less confirmable.
Alright. Reading Roguelike 2 gave me nightmares. Why randomizes over standard redirects?
zombieurist, your reads on everyone please.In order from scum to town:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Vector on March 28, 2013, 04:54:16 pm
Also, scroll of mail? Do you mean...
Quote
4. Do not PM other players. Players with private chat access will be given a topic on QuickTopic where they may post freely.
Post by: zombie urist on March 28, 2013, 05:05:47 pm
also also, extend extend extend
Post by: Hapah on March 28, 2013, 05:47:29 pm
Leaf
-stuff in Post 223-Concerning your points:
Points 1 and 3, I think you are seeing it wrong. At the very least, I could understand why Zrk2 did what he did. He was just trying to rattle the new guy's cage so that he'd get his head in the game, and from where I'm sitting it looks like it worked (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=124225.msg4136601#msg4136601). The post isn't a masterpiece or anything, but it's far and away the best post from alamoes this game. It looks like he's trying now. I could possibly give you point 2 though, pending a reread.
A vote has pressure because the person who's being voted thinks "shit I'm going to be lynched" and is thus pressured. If they know it's not an "I am going to do my best to lynch you" vote then there's no pressure.It got him to actually play, though. ImpGuard got a "traditional" pressure vote and is still a bit player, yeah? Which would you say got results?
Oka:
The appeal to authority part is debatable, but I can't seem to find anything about Vector pressuring multiple people at all. Zrk2: Where'd you pull that from?Even Vector mentioned that earlier.Appeal to authority. Also, making excuses.
Okay. Zrk2And why would this be Leaf's fault if Zrk flips town?
He hasn't been particularly productive, Leaf, so the points you cited do have merit. If he ends up flipping town, I hope you don't mind if I push you hard on the morrow.
Spoiler: EVE (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: OOC @ Okami No Rei (click to show/hide)
Vector
Yeah, next step. I'll explain on D2 if I'm still alive.This and all the following bits seem damn odd, but what can I do? I hope you make it to D2.
Spoiler: NQT (click to show/hide)
Post by: Leafsnail on March 28, 2013, 05:54:44 pm
This is an excellent summary of the current B12 meta on bandwagons. May I quote you on this in other games?Sure.
Harassing Vector? Me? I just put my vote on her because she's scum more often than not, and I wanted a good placeholder vote while analyzing everybody's reasoning.This is gambler's fallacy. Well I guess reverse gambler's fallacy. Either way someone's alignments in past games doesn't give any information about their alignment in the current game.
Post by: Leafsnail on March 28, 2013, 05:55:00 pm
Leafsnail: You're prepared to out Zrk2 without asking him anything - leading only to a declarative post? Was that a definitive vote, or a pressure vote - and when did your suspicions rise on him?It was a definitive vote. My suspicions rose on him when I read his posts and realized he had contributed nothing to the game.
I don't think there's anything to ask.
While what you said is very agreeable, you don't seem to poke him on any of those which you've stated, but come up with a conclusion instead.Yes.
I'm acting under the impression that people do mistakes, and while people commit mistakes - their intentions can me remarked on due to their personality.Yeah, I guess so?
Though...Zrk did comment on your post. And did nothing else but give a nearly blank statement. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=124225.msg4136176#msg4136176) Even if he did such, you really do believe enough on Zrk2 to try attempt to convince Okami (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=124225.msg4136488#msg4136488) on him?As you say he failed to address any of the substantive points I brought up, so yes.
Followed by a justified push on what constitutes a bandwagon and the analogy behind it, Okami wasn't even bandwagoning anyone as Vector had no votes beforehand. Who were you talking about when you saidI wasn't accusing Okami of bandwagoning at all. I was saying his vote, in which he accused Vector of bandwagoning, was bad, and so is the general attitude towards "bandwagoning" on Bay 12.QuoteAs for your vote, I'm going to go ahead and say it's stupid and that Bay 12's entire attitude to bandwagoning is kindof silly[...]Because the semantics point to Okami.
And lastly, why are you pointing to a psychological basis other than poking at your target with direct questions? What you said in relation with the bandwagon seems more of a justification without any kind of foundation - nobody remarked on a bandwagon that would compromise your post at all. Its agreeable, yeah, and can seemingly convince in itself, but why did you even state those ideas?I don't understand. I think this point will be cleared up if you reread my post keeping in mind that I'm not accusing Okami of bandwagoning.
Like this, for example. How in the world does this make sense, and why are you remarking on it? There is no policy, only an intangible line of thought that implies fear due to lack of reasoning - something which is easily cleared up later on. How does scum easily manipulate the lynch in this scenario?I guess it's not a "policy" so much as "a thing that everybody does and continues to do because nobody has bothered to challenge it in the past". That doesn't change my point.
Scum can easily manipulate the lynch because under the "you aren't allowed to agree with anyone, ever" meta we tend to end up with really tiny plurality lynches. So maybe there's only one or two votes between the person who is going to get lynched and the person with the next most votes. This means the scum can drop in and they only need to make a couple of votes to change the lynch target to someone favourable for them. Compare this to "We are allowed to agree with each other" in which you can get a solid majority on someone, preventing the scum from changing the target of the lynch.
Post by: Leafsnail on March 28, 2013, 06:05:47 pm
Points 1 and 3, I think you are seeing it wrong. At the very least, I could understand why Zrk2 did what he did. He was just trying to rattle the new guy's cage so that he'd get his head in the game, and from where I'm sitting it looks like it worked (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=124225.msg4136601#msg4136601). The post isn't a masterpiece or anything, but it's far and away the best post from alamoes this game. It looks like he's trying now. I could possibly give you point 2 though, pending a reread.If you reject point 3 then point 2 should stand. While I can sortof see the value in getting a new guy to post better it doesn't directly help us to find scum.
It got him to actually play, though. ImpGuard got a "traditional" pressure vote and is still a bit player, yeah? Which would you say got results?I don't think Alamoes minor improvement in play is attributable to Zrk2's vote.
Post by: Imperial Guardsman on March 28, 2013, 06:45:16 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
no, i have not taken lessons from anybody. i am brand new, and paying attention to the personalities of others
i will wait during the night phase and hope that the mafia does not target me.
Post by: Hapah on March 28, 2013, 06:52:34 pm
And point 2 may stand, as I said. I just haven't done the reread to see if it does, though it appears some others have.Points 1 and 3, I think you are seeing it wrong. At the very least, I could understand why Zrk2 did what he did. He was just trying to rattle the new guy's cage so that he'd get his head in the game, and from where I'm sitting it looks like it worked (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=124225.msg4136601#msg4136601). The post isn't a masterpiece or anything, but it's far and away the best post from alamoes this game. It looks like he's trying now. I could possibly give you point 2 though, pending a reread.If you reject point 3 then point 2 should stand. While I can sortof see the value in getting a new guy to post better it doesn't directly help us to find scum.
And I don't think it can be dismissed out of hand. (PPE: Computer troubles on ImpGuard's part, so we may never know)It got him to actually play, though. ImpGuard got a "traditional" pressure vote and is still a bit player, yeah? Which would you say got results?I don't think Alamoes minor improvement in play is attributable to Zrk2's vote.
Are you holding strong to all points? It looks like Zrk is getting lynched boils down to being not-so-great at RVS to me.
Post by: Leafsnail on March 28, 2013, 06:54:33 pm
Post by: Hapah on March 28, 2013, 07:11:12 pm
-His pressure vote didn't fit the shape your idea of a pressure vote (though, as far as I'm concerned, it had the desired effect. Only alamoes knows for sure though)
-He didn't do a good job of scumhunting during RVS (and he's hardly alone in that regard).
and that's it. Isn't it? We might have to agree to disagree on some points, but it looks awfully thin to me and I'm kind of amazed it took off like it did. Maybe the others see something I don't.
I still think NQT is scummy.
Post by: Okami No Rei on March 28, 2013, 07:11:48 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Vector
A. Not this time.No? Where's the fun in that?
B. The second vote on a player is not exactly definitive. This vote was the right one.Having now read the rest of the thread, I believe you.
This is not only soft ("I hope you don't mind?" Really?) but reeks of lynch-chaining. I'm watching you.Well, if he's going to be taking well-established meta and throwing it out the window (in defense of you, no less), I see no reason not to do the same.
Hapah
And why would this be Leaf's fault if Zrk flips town?Because Leaf started it.
Leafsnail
This is gambler's fallacy. Well I guess reverse gambler's fallacy. Either way someone's alignments in past games doesn't give any information about their alignment in the current game.I'm not allowed to use fallacious reasoning on what is essentially an RVS vote while I get my bearings?
Really now. I thought it was pretty obvious that I was voting Vector just to put my vote somewhere while I was reading the thread.
That's it for questions. To be continued in next post.
Post by: Leafsnail on March 28, 2013, 07:27:59 pm
-He didn't do a good job of scumhunting during RVS (and he's hardly alone in that regard).No.
and that's it. Isn't it?
He has made absolutely no attempt to scumhunt for the entire game. It's not mere incompetence and it's not an RVS only thing. While plenty of other players were contributing to the white noise most others had at least made attempts to vote for mafia members (if you spot anyone else who is in the same boat as Zrk2 then please point them out so they can be lynched too).
Post by: Toaster on March 28, 2013, 07:45:11 pm
The Soldier:
notquitethere: Hapah
Vector:
Captain Ford: Zombie Urist
Hapah:
Okami No Rei:
Deathsword:
Zrk2: Leafsnail, Vector, The Soldier, Okami No Rei
Leafsnail: Tiruin
Imperial Guardsman: notquitethere
Tiruin:
alamoes:
Zombie Urist: alamoes, Imperial Guardsman, Captain Ford, Zrk2
Not Voting: Deathsword
Day 1 will last until Thursday, 3/28 at 11 PM EST, about 2 1/4 hours from this post.
There is one vote to extend. Four total votes needed to extend the day.
Spoiler: NQT (click to show/hide)
From this point forward, votes in spoilers do not count. Make them where I can see them easily.
Post by: Okami No Rei on March 28, 2013, 08:12:01 pm
The frankness with which Leaf is pursuing the lynch on Zrk2 is, I admit, a refreshing change from how things usually work around here. I wanted to see where he was going with it, and also how serious he was about the specific bits of meta he didn't like.1 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=124225.msg4136488#msg4136488) I read through the thread in order to form my own impressions on Zrk2 (see below), but I was more interested in investigating Leafsnail. I felt that I wouldn't get the answers I wanted by asking him directly, so I called his bluff2 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=124225.msg4136724#msg4136724), if bluff it was.
I hopped on the bandwagon in a deliberately scummy manner (which, strangely, seems to have only set off alarm-bells from Tiruin, and has received only token attention from others), because I wanted to see Leaf's reaction. No, I don't know what I was expecting to see. If I knew, I wouldn't have attempted it in the first place.
As of this post (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=124225.msg4138480#msg4138480), I'm convinced that he's not bluffing, and he seems to be so preoccupied with Zrk2 that he hasn't even noticed my gambit.
Anyway, I'm happy to leave my vote on Zrk2 for now, primarily due to these two posts:
However, before we jump down the throats of the newbies it may be a good idea to consider their actions in light of the fact that they are new, and not lynch them for "scumtells" that are simply newby mistakes. While I generally am not opposed to lynching the least productive person D1, because there is nothing else to really go on, in this case I think it may be uncalled for.
I thought we had the beginnings of a bandwagon on our hands, and did what I could to avert it.Zrk2 - It seems to me you're not only not contributing to the scumhunting, as Leaf claims, but actively opposing it anytime it touches on our newer members.
Post by: The Soldier on March 28, 2013, 08:16:04 pm
Post by: Okami No Rei on March 28, 2013, 08:20:33 pm
Post by: Hapah on March 28, 2013, 08:21:55 pm
Hapah...and? You obviously have no problem with the argument, if you are following along.And why would this be Leaf's fault if Zrk flips town?Because Leaf started it.
No.Zombie Urist's content is literally thirteen words over two days. He could very well just be busy, and I don't think he's a great lynch either, but damn. NQT looks like scum to me, Okami's promise to try to lynch you if Zrk2 flips town for presenting a case that he's agreeing with is scummy and downright ridiculous, and yet we're looking at this.
He has made absolutely no attempt to scumhunt for the entire game. It's not mere incompetence and it's not an RVS only thing. While plenty of other players were contributing to the white noise most others had at least made attempts to vote for mafia members (if you spot anyone else who is in the same boat as Zrk2 then please point them out so they can be lynched too).
Extend. Probably won't be back before day end.
PPE Okami and TheSolder: No time now, will read later.
Post by: Toaster on March 28, 2013, 09:15:18 pm
Post by: Leafsnail on March 28, 2013, 09:20:08 pm
Post by: Zrk2 on March 28, 2013, 09:57:42 pm
The appeal to authority part is debatable, but I can't seem to find anything about Vector pressuring multiple people at all. Zrk2: Where'd you pull that from?Even Vector mentioned that earlier.Appeal to authority. Also, making excuses.
She said it is more productive to focus one's efforts on a single, or couple, people, because one simply cannot keep up the pressure on everyone in a game.
Zrk2 - It seems to me you're not only not contributing to the scumhunting, as Leaf claims, but actively opposing it anytime it touches on our newer members.
False. I said we should remember that they are noobs, and account for it, not necessarily go soft on them. For instance regard my case presented for Alamoes.
Post by: Tiruin on March 28, 2013, 10:25:48 pm
Zrk. Hope you've had a good day.
The night reached an early conclusion so I am returned to you.So then you ignore my everything I've asked you, and specify only one trivial point in which you don't have any quotes or other conclusive evidence to prove; only an opinion - which, while true in the sense that newbies are much more vulnerable to being used as scumpulls (taken from the idea of scum pulling on an easier way out by using these people as a rope) - fails to persuade due to the fact that you seem to be deflecting the whole idea of "you scumhunting" onto that case.The appeal to authority part is debatable, but I can't seem to find anything about Vector pressuring multiple people at all. Zrk2: Where'd you pull that from?Even Vector mentioned that earlier.Appeal to authority. Also, making excuses.
She said it is more productive to focus one's efforts on a single, or couple, people, because one simply cannot keep up the pressure on everyone in a game.Zrk2 - It seems to me you're not only not contributing to the scumhunting, as Leaf claims, but actively opposing it anytime it touches on our newer members.
False. I said we should remember that they are noobs, and account for it, not necessarily go soft on them. For instance regard my case presented for Alamoes.
So tell me. Reads on everyone. Also, why aren't you addressing most of the questions pointed towards you? You say that you're town - sure. Then you lay a vote on ZU...because of percentages. Explain how and why you came up with that, how that would help town.
Lastly (keep with me, sir), you do know that judging by your attitude, its partly a liability due to the idea that you've not done much in the terms of conventional scumhunting, right? I'm not all to familiar with how you do it, but I'm quite confused on why or how your brevity in posting helps at all. You've focused on only one person during the day during your first posts, what can you say about him in particular?
And to end, how productive do you think you've been in trying to help the town, given your words on being town?
Okami
Quote
Leafsnail - Blatantly inviting everyone on board the Zrk2 bandwagon.These are the only people you suspect...and then you say your vote basis is on LS. That you played a scum-looking gambit, and that you really seem defensive that you're poking at all my points...
Vector - Because not suspecting her is folly.
Imperial Guardsmen - Because I can't tell if he's newb-telling or scum-telling.
Dude, you do know that by how you state LS as your suspect, your other posts in regard to voting Zrk seem to lose validity in the sense that...you're agreeing with a suspect and choosing the better way out, right? That's how I see it.
And that one part on Vector? Smells like you just adding it in without a tangible reason. Why is not suspecting her, folly? No wait: Why'd you even add that in?
On that thing on IG: Then where's your questions for him? Leaving an opinion blank in your thoughts is not a good thing, no matter how it goes.
While I do appreciate your honesty, I-
Now, I've got a bit of explaining to do, and I hope this answers many of your questions.Wat.
The frankness with which Leaf is pursuing the lynch on Zrk2 is, I admit, a refreshing change from how things usually work around here. I wanted to see where he was going with it, and also how serious he was about the specific bits of meta he didn't like.1 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=124225.msg4136488#msg4136488) I read through the thread in order to form my own impressions on Zrk2 (see below), but I was more interested in investigating Leafsnail. I felt that I wouldn't get the answers I wanted by asking him directly, so I called his bluff2 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=124225.msg4136724#msg4136724), if bluff it was.
I hopped on the bandwagon in a deliberately scummy manner (which, strangely, seems to have only set off alarm-bells from Tiruin, and has received only token attention from others), because I wanted to see Leaf's reaction. No, I don't know what I was expecting to see. If I knew, I wouldn't have attempted it in the first place.
As of this post (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=124225.msg4138480#msg4138480), I'm convinced that he's not bluffing, and he seems to be so preoccupied with Zrk2 that he hasn't even noticed my gambit.
Anyway, I'm happy to leave my vote on Zrk2 for now, primarily due to these two posts:However, before we jump down the throats of the newbies it may be a good idea to consider their actions in light of the fact that they are new, and not lynch them for "scumtells" that are simply newby mistakes. While I generally am not opposed to lynching the least productive person D1, because there is nothing else to really go on, in this case I think it may be uncalled for.I thought we had the beginnings of a bandwagon on our hands, and did what I could to avert it.Zrk2 - It seems to me you're not only not contributing to the scumhunting, as Leaf claims, but actively opposing it anytime it touches on our newer members.
Deliberately scummy manner? Your post there can be attributed to you just reading up and posting on what you saw during the skim. That's how I saw it then, but I decided to poke you on it.
Because now that you state it, it is very strange for me to see you say "where Leafsnail" is going without even asking him anything ("I do reaction posts without addressing it", much?). And really seem to be covering something not even regarded as much of a slip (well, honesty aside), because...you wanted to see a specific person's reaction?
Really looks like you're trying to cover up something which didn't even exist, only as a reaction of present fear in your mind.
Spoiler: Just to ask (click to show/hide)
Post by: Zrk2 on March 29, 2013, 12:17:54 am
Zrk. Hope you've had a good day.
It was okay, all things considered.
Quote
The night reached an early conclusion so I am returned to you.So then you ignore my everything I've asked you, and specify only one trivial point in which you don't have any quotes or other conclusive evidence to prove; only an opinion - which, while true in the sense that newbies are much more vulnerable to being used as scumpulls (taken from the idea of scum pulling on an easier way out by using these people as a rope) - fails to persuade due to the fact that you seem to be deflecting the whole idea of "you scumhunting" onto that case.The appeal to authority part is debatable, but I can't seem to find anything about Vector pressuring multiple people at all. Zrk2: Where'd you pull that from?Even Vector mentioned that earlier.Appeal to authority. Also, making excuses.
She said it is more productive to focus one's efforts on a single, or couple, people, because one simply cannot keep up the pressure on everyone in a game.Zrk2 - It seems to me you're not only not contributing to the scumhunting, as Leaf claims, but actively opposing it anytime it touches on our newer members.
False. I said we should remember that they are noobs, and account for it, not necessarily go soft on them. For instance regard my case presented for Alamoes.
So tell me. Reads on everyone. Also, why aren't you addressing most of the questions pointed towards you? You say that you're town - sure. Then you lay a vote on ZU...because of percentages. Explain how and why you came up with that, how that would help town.
I already posted my reads. See above. As far as percentages I was referring to the fact that I know I am town, whereas I do not know that about Zombie Urist. Therefore if I must choose between lynching him or myself I will choose him every time. Percentages.
Quote
Lastly (keep with me, sir), you do know that judging by your attitude, its partly a liability due to the idea that you've not done much in the terms of conventional scumhunting, right? I'm not all to familiar with how you do it, but I'm quite confused on why or how your brevity in posting helps at all. You've focused on only one person during the day during your first posts, what can you say about him in particular?
And to end, how productive do you think you've been in trying to help the town, given your words on being town?
I have found someone who I believe to be scum, however circumstances have forced me away from voting for them, which is unfortunate. As far as productivity goes I haven't been particularly useful, but then neither have I been particularly useless.
Post by: Tiruin on March 29, 2013, 12:33:43 am
So you see it as a duel between you and ZU. Mhmm.QuoteLastly (keep with me, sir), you do know that judging by your attitude, its partly a liability due to the idea that you've not done much in the terms of conventional scumhunting, right? I'm not all to familiar with how you do it, but I'm quite confused on why or how your brevity in posting helps at all. You've focused on only one person during the day during your first posts, what can you say about him in particular?
And to end, how productive do you think you've been in trying to help the town, given your words on being town?
I have found someone who I believe to be scum, however circumstances have forced me away from voting for them, which is unfortunate. As far as productivity goes I haven't been particularly useful, but then neither have I been particularly useless.
Then you say here...a very contradicting idea which I bolded. Why aren't you even speaking about that scumbuddy, Zrk2? Why aren't you voting for who you suspect, instead of a losing case of survival?
Detail how you have been "particularly" useful or useless, because its really annoying making sense of how many suppositions and nebulous generalities you're putting up. I mean, you don't even poke at LS at all, despite what you said "in your reads" or of those who you do suspect.
Your argument of "I know I'm...ZU is..." doesn't persuade. WHile it does state what your opinion is, what is there to back it up? Doesn't even detail any effort in there.
Meaning: You do know you're going to die, and you give nothing else but a nigh-blank argument which leads...onto nothing, really. Suppose you do flip town, what will the rest of us gain from your info? Particularly useful doesn't seem like particularly useful to town, here. Or to your team, whatever it is (yeah I'm putting in a third party idea for the benefit of the doubt).
Your (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=124225.msg4137458#msg4137458) reads - I'm guessing they didn't change, left out ZU/freshman. What the h-...Look. Before that, you weren't poking at ZU. After that, you only chose to poke at ZU for the main reason that percentages will keep you alive.
What will that gain if you live, seemingly nothing as you don't seem eager to give any other information but that at the current reason. Tbh, I'm really torn given your situation, but you're withholding information after every darn time I asked you of it. No "Where was your question" or "What were you talking about?" but declarative statements. One-ended ones :/
Speak now, or forever be condemned.
Post by: The Soldier on March 29, 2013, 04:21:40 am
Spoiler: Reads (click to show/hide)
Captain Ford:
Some questions for you: where have you been? You're voting ZU; do you want him lynched? If so, what's your case, and who's your second pick? What are your opinions of Okami no Rei, Deathsword, and Imperial Guardsman?
Zrk2: I believe you're wrong. If Alamoes was scum, he'd have teammates coaching him. He doesn't look coached. Freshman is (was) far more likely to be scum because of his relative silence. There are things missing from his posts that I would expect to see, and I feel like I'm only hearing part of the conversation.Just noticed this, and felt there was something worth pointing out. The previous Roguelikes have had wacky setups (2 SKs and no scumteam in one game, 2 mentors and no scumteam in another), and I expect that this one will be no exception. It's completely possible for him(or anyone) to be scum/nontown and not have a team. I don't feel alamoes is scummy, but it's something to keep in mind.
Okami no Rei:
You stated here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=124225.msg4136724#msg4136724) that you would press Leafsnail tomorrow should Zrk2 flip town. Was this a part of your 'deliberate scumminess' gambit? What would your opinion be of Leafsnail if Zrk2 flips scum? If he flips some third-party? Just how suspicious would you be if he flipped town?
Deathsword:
When you manage to get steady internet, some input would be appreciated. Who do you feel should be lynched today, and why?
notquitethere:
The two main lynch candidates currently are ZU and Zrk2. Should either be lynched? Both? Neither? If neither, who should be lynched? What's your read on Hapah?
Zrk2:
This is fair enough reasoning, I suppose, but see the bottom of this section.=Criticism of leaving your vote on DS=Oh bullshit. I picked my RVS and asked an open ended question. He responded, and I was not satisfied. I made that clear and asked for more. I did not get it, but the game was moving on and the period in which it was useful had passed, so I moved on to other techniques.
Reads? Okay. Let's see.RE: "completely unremarkable","the case applies to him too": I have to agree. I feel like I've played D1 terribly so far, and resolve to play better from now on.
...
The Soldier: Leapt on my bandwagon and has been otherwise completely unremarkable. In fact the case presented against me applies to him to. Completely unremarkable. May be scum, or just new.
...
RE: "scum or just new": This is technically my first "real" game here, along with KotM. Please don't let my lack of experience influence your read on me; judge from what you see.
I might seem like a hardheaded idiot to you, but I'm not impossible to convince. Can you defend yourself from the accusations? Who is the biggest single scum candidate, in your mind? If you are indeed town, use your last moments to make a solid case against someone. It may just save you, and if it doesn't, the town can benefit from the knowledge that your case was sincere.
alamoes:
You've stated that you think ZU is scum. Could you explain why, and provide evidence (preferably quotes or links)?
Alright, that took me way too long. Almost 2:30 AM here, need sleep badly.
Post by: Captain Ford on March 29, 2013, 10:28:02 am
4. He didn't respond to the scroll of mail I sent him. >:(Oh! That was you! I totally forgot about it after reading it the first time.
You were very cryptic, and I had no idea what kind of reply to send. Sorry, I missed my meds yesterday and I've been very absent-minded as a result. :/
I intended to follow up later on yesterday but that never happened. I was busy most of the night with friends.
My god ... I feel so strange today. I feel like I'm constantly on the verge of falling asleep ... fuck. I think I need to go back to the pharmacy and exchange for the brand name (if that's even possible).
I haven't had the chance to read up yet, and my eyes just aren't tracking on the page. I've also got a lot of work to do today. I'll post what I can, when I get the chance. But ugh...
Unvote until I can figure my shit out. I still don't know what to make of the message ZU sent me.
Post by: notquitethere on March 29, 2013, 11:36:52 am
But Deathsword didn't answer either, did he? Did I miss it, or do you not give a damn about the replies?Good shout Hapah- I thought he had responded but it looks like I missed that one. The obvious downside from asking eleven players questions is that it's easy to overlook people. I do try though. Also, my time is finite, so I won't be able to immediately follow up in-depth to all of them.
According to my own understanding of the game. Hapah, it's not like I'm reciting lessons from my long years at Mafia College. What do you find suspicious then?I'd find a lot things potentially suspicious, including, for instance, any reply which either exaggerated or understated the importance of some game element.According to who? It feels like you are making this up as you go along.
Deathsword: It looks like you missed my question (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=124225.msg4131907#msg4131907).
Vector: Your experiment better to be golden, or questions regarding active-lurking are bound to arise.
The Soldier
The two main lynch candidates currently are ZU and Zrk2. Should either be lynched? Both? Neither? If neither, who should be lynched? What's your read on Hapah?ZU seems to me the most scummiest: his curtness is a mask for evasiveness, and his predecessor Fresh was dropping scum tells like they were going out of fashion. But since we've been granted an extension, we've got a little more time to form our reads.
ZU, Zrk2, if we lynch you and you flip town who do you think we should be suspicious of next?
Imp. Imperial Guardsman. IG., I'm still waiting for a response (http://"http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?action=post;quote=4137201;topic=124225.240;last_msg=4139851").
Post by: notquitethere on March 29, 2013, 11:43:35 am
The Soldier, my read on Hapah is that best case is, he's well meaning and thinks there's something about my style that is scummy. Worst case, he's just picked a random person to wail upon so he looks active. He certainly doesn't have any sort of case, or if he does I'd sincerely like to see it.
Post by: zombie urist on March 29, 2013, 11:59:32 am
ZU seems to me the most scummiest: his curtness is a mask for evasiveness, and his predecessor Fresh was dropping scum tells like they were going out of fashion. But since we've been granted an extension, we've got a little more time to form our reads.Then why aren't you voting for me? NQT for the second part.
ZU, Zrk2, if we lynch you and you flip town who do you think we should be suspicious of next?
Zombie Urist's content is literally thirteen words over two days.Where did you learn to count. :-\
Post by: Hapah on March 29, 2013, 12:07:24 pm
I didn't count answering questions as content.
Post by: alamoes on March 29, 2013, 12:10:48 pm
Post by: Toaster on March 29, 2013, 12:15:22 pm
The Soldier:
notquitethere: Hapah, Zombie Urist
Vector:
Captain Ford:
Hapah:
Okami No Rei:
Deathsword:
Zrk2: Leafsnail, Vector, The Soldier, Okami No Rei, Tiruin
Leafsnail:
Imperial Guardsman: notquitethere
Tiruin:
alamoes:
Zombie Urist: alamoes, Imperial Guardsman, Zrk2
Not Voting: Deathsword, Captain Ford
Day 1 will last until until Friday, 3/29 at 11 PM EST, about 9 3/4 hours from this post.
Post by: zombie urist on March 29, 2013, 12:17:30 pm
I am back from a long car ride to my uncle's house. I'd like to know of ZU's experiment he mentioned, so I'll keep my vote on him. I need to continue reading what I missed though.What experiment? You mean Vector's experiment?
I didn't count answering questions as content.I do. Otherwise there's no reason to ask questions.
Post by: Vector on March 29, 2013, 12:48:00 pm
Actually...
Unvote. Vote Toaster What do you make of Dariush's lynch? What do you think of NQT's vote analysis? What do you think about Vector's meta argument?
His recent vote is also crap and demonstrates that he has absolutely no actual suspicions. I'm pretty sure that someone with the minimal amount of experience ZU has can understand "I'm pressing this guy to get some answers and I'll kill you later." This sort of vote reminds me one hell of a lot of how I played when I was starting to play scum: you can't really see anyone else's scumtells. All you know is that you've got a sign painted on your back saying "IT'S ME IT'S ME" and you vote people over the stupidest shit.
So let's kill him, because as much as I understand Leafsnail's argument and every piece is correct, I really don't think Zrk2 is who we need to be lynching today. If he keeps being as activelurky as he is, we can consider him later, but ZU has contributed even less and is going quite strongly against his own established meta.
As for my experiment, sometimes when you nail scum you can sort of see the rest of the scumteam reforming up in the background. I've been townhunting for this past little bit, but now I've got some leads and can stop doing it. All this, of course, works better when no one knows exactly what you're doing.
Here are my reads:
1. The Soldier - lean town, need to see more data to be sure.
2. notquitethere - pretty sure he's town on my initial sweep, but I'm not totally sure.
3. Vector - CT >_>
4. Captain Ford - town.
5. Hapah - lean town, need to question more D2.
6. Okami No Rei - probably scum. I'm going to wait on more information from him, but that whole lynch-chaining thing is really bothering me.
7. Deathsword - probably scum or needs replacement. Hasn't shown up to vote. Guessing it's scum.
8. Zrk2 - lean scummy-looking town.
9. Leafsnail - not sure--very low activity, but talking reasonably. Third party?
10. Imperial Guardsman - noob. Probably town, but that's a guess based on process of elimination; hoping we'll get more data on this guy as we go along.
11. Tiruin - lean town.
12. alamoes - same as IG.
13. zombie urist. Obvscum. Die, fucker.
Post by: Zrk2 on March 29, 2013, 02:01:28 pm
So you see it as a duel between you and ZU. Mhmm.QuoteLastly (keep with me, sir), you do know that judging by your attitude, its partly a liability due to the idea that you've not done much in the terms of conventional scumhunting, right? I'm not all to familiar with how you do it, but I'm quite confused on why or how your brevity in posting helps at all. You've focused on only one person during the day during your first posts, what can you say about him in particular?
And to end, how productive do you think you've been in trying to help the town, given your words on being town?
I have found someone who I believe to be scum, however circumstances have forced me away from voting for them, which is unfortunate. As far as productivity goes I haven't been particularly useful, but then neither have I been particularly useless.
Then you say here...a very contradicting idea which I bolded. Why aren't you even speaking about that scumbuddy, Zrk2? Why aren't you voting for who you suspect, instead of a losing case of survival?
Because given the current vote structure it is highly unlikely he will be lynched. I could continue to vote for him and die myself, or I could vote for someone else and live. Besides all that ZU hasn't been very useful all game.
Quote
Detail how you have been "particularly" useful or useless, because its really annoying making sense of how many suppositions and nebulous generalities you're putting up. I mean, you don't even poke at LS at all, despite what you said "in your reads" or of those who you do suspect.
Your argument of "I know I'm...ZU is..." doesn't persuade. WHile it does state what your opinion is, what is there to back it up? Doesn't even detail any effort in there.
Meaning: You do know you're going to die, and you give nothing else but a nigh-blank argument which leads...onto nothing, really. Suppose you do flip town, what will the rest of us gain from your info? Particularly useful doesn't seem like particularly useful to town, here. Or to your team, whatever it is (yeah I'm putting in a third party idea for the benefit of the doubt).
Your (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=124225.msg4137458#msg4137458) reads - I'm guessing they didn't change, left out ZU/freshman. What the h-...Look. Before that, you weren't poking at ZU. After that, you only chose to poke at ZU for the main reason that percentages will keep you alive.
Huh. I did, shit. Well then:
Freshman: Null.
ZU:: Hasn't shown up much, might be scum.
Quote
What will that gain if you live, seemingly nothing as you don't seem eager to give any other information but that at the current reason. Tbh, I'm really torn given your situation, but you're withholding information after every darn time I asked you of it. No "Where was your question" or "What were you talking about?" but declarative statements. One-ended ones :/
Speak now, or forever be condemned.
Which question in particular are you referring to?
Zrk2:Reads? Okay. Let's see.RE: "completely unremarkable","the case applies to him too": I have to agree. I feel like I've played D1 terribly so far, and resolve to play better from now on.
...
The Soldier: Leapt on my bandwagon and has been otherwise completely unremarkable. In fact the case presented against me applies to him to. Completely unremarkable. May be scum, or just new.
...
RE: "scum or just new": This is technically my first "real" game here, along with KotM. Please don't let my lack of experience influence your read on me; judge from what you see.
I might seem like a hardheaded idiot to you, but I'm not impossible to convince. Can you defend yourself from the accusations? Who is the biggest single scum candidate, in your mind? If you are indeed town, use your last moments to make a solid case against someone. It may just save you, and if it doesn't, the town can benefit from the knowledge that your case was sincere.
I still stand beside my case against Alamoes, and ZU has rarely posted, so he may be hiding something. Biggest scumtell? Hiding. Be that lurking, active lurking, bandwagoning, anything that helps one fly below the radar.
Now we sit back in a vote tie. I'd ask that everyone go back and consider the cases against me and ZU, and decide which one is more convincing, because I'd hate to waste a lynch. Speaking of which, ZU, where the hell have you been?
Post by: Teneb on March 29, 2013, 03:08:47 pm
Post by: zombie urist on March 29, 2013, 03:16:39 pm
Also I've been posting every day so I haven't been lurking.
Post by: Vector on March 29, 2013, 03:22:20 pm
If you make an argument on your own meta, I get to dig up your meta. That's how it works. You've contradicted yourself and on top of that your every argument makes me want to turn you into a knife-pinata a little bit more, so let's just shuffle on and have you die, shall we?
Extend. Let's remove this waste of space.
Post by: zombie urist on March 29, 2013, 03:46:40 pm
You can dig up my meta, but you've only dug through one game.
Also why are you extending?
Post by: Teneb on March 29, 2013, 03:49:30 pm
Deathsword, who do you think the most scummy person is?Can't say now as I just started to read the thread at this point. Should be clear later in this post.
However, Deathsword is also the only person not voting, and I don't think I've seen him in a while. I would like your reads very much, Deathsword.They'll be at the end of this post.
DSScum. Scum can coordinate and plan with each other, while third parties are alone.
Question: if you were town would you be more concerned about scum or third parties?
I could swear I answered this one.
LeafsnailWhy would you vote for the sake of voting? How does that help in finding scum?This is gambler's fallacy. Well I guess reverse gambler's fallacy. Either way someone's alignments in past games doesn't give any information about their alignment in the current game.I'm not allowed to use fallacious reasoning on what is essentially an RVS vote while I get my bearings?
Really now. I thought it was pretty obvious that I was voting Vector just to put my vote somewhere while I was reading the thread.
Reads:
Town: Leafsnail (has some good points, especially on bandwagons)
Null: Everyone not mentioned
Slightly scummy: Vector (this "experiment" is a bit suspicious. I am willing to wait to see if you divulge the information on D2 or not), Ford (Defending alamoes. But defending people seems to be his thing, hence why only slightly), alamoes (could give some reasons for his votes), IG (gut feeleing)
Scummy:Zrk2 (Ignores entire posts directed to him, ignores parts of posts instead answering only the less substantial parts, saying "if you think I am scum, vote me" which looks like scum trying to look a martyr), ZU (Laconic, behaviour of his predecessor)
Are there hammers? If not I'll change my FoS on Zrk2 to a vote.
Post by: Vector on March 29, 2013, 03:54:00 pm
As for my experiment, sometimes when you nail scum you can sort of see the rest of the scumteam reforming up in the background. I've been townhunting for this past little bit, but now I've got some leads and can stop doing it. All this, of course, works better when no one knows exactly what you're doing.
Dear Deathsword: please see above.
Post by: Zrk2 on March 29, 2013, 03:59:25 pm
Post by: Vector on March 29, 2013, 04:04:33 pm
Post by: Teneb on March 29, 2013, 04:25:12 pm
Post by: Captain Ford on March 29, 2013, 05:43:12 pm
After puzzling over ZU's message for like ... ten minutes (+/- a day), I've concluded it's either meaningless, or he was telling me I smell bad.
Zombie Urist: Why exactly does not answering your message make me scummy?
Some questions for you: where have you been? You're voting ZU; do you want him lynched? If so, what's your case, and who's your second pick? What are your opinions of Okami no Rei, Deathsword, and Imperial Guardsman?Kinda answered that, although my grammar makes it hard to read, I think.
I spent the afternoon & evening with friends playing D&D. It was planned ahead of time. I planned to get a post in a few hours after my last one, but got sidetracked entertaining my guests and forgot about it.
Okami: ...townish. His "I deliberately voted scummy" gambit was a bit overthought. I didn't look at that vote twice. Even looking at it now it doesn't really feel all that scummy.
Deathsword: Given his bad connection, there's not a whole lot for me to work with. Even with a decent connection, he's often very busy these days.
Imperial Guard: Doing pretty well for a new player. I don't have much more to add.
Huh...that's definitely a worthwhile point. But since Freshman was exerting signs of it and Alamoes wasn't ... that was my logic, anyway.Zrk2: I believe you're wrong. If Alamoes was scum, he'd have teammates coaching him. He doesn't look coached. Freshman is (was) far more likely to be scum because of his relative silence. There are things missing from his posts that I would expect to see, and I feel like I'm only hearing part of the conversation.Just noticed this, and felt there was something worth pointing out. The previous Roguelikes have had wacky setups (2 SKs and no scumteam in one game, 2 mentors and no scumteam in another), and I expect that this one will be no exception. It's completely possible for him(or anyone) to be scum/nontown and not have a team. I don't feel alamoes is scummy, but it's something to keep in mind.
Post by: notquitethere on March 29, 2013, 06:01:18 pm
Ford, regarding Imp, how exactly is ignoring a question for four days in a row 'doing pretty well'?
Post by: Leafsnail on March 29, 2013, 06:06:26 pm
ZU looks pretty scummy. I disagree with Vector's assertion that his current actions don't fit his meta - they seem to fit his scum meta pretty well, and they remind me of his behaviour in VLR (in which he was a spy). I would not be at all opposed to a ZU lynch, but I think a Zrk2 lynch is equally good and would rather not risk half-switching the votestack at this point (which could result in a no lynch or scum deciding the outcome).
I'm not seeing NQT scum at all. He seems to be struggling to express himself properly but I read a genuine desire to identify scum in basically all of his posts. Certainly I haven't seen the constant logical contortions I associate with scum-NQT.
I still stand beside my case against AlamoesBut... it was pressure, wasn't it?
Post by: zombie urist on March 29, 2013, 06:33:24 pm
I haven't seen the constant logical contortions I associate with town-NQT. Also, he's only asked weak no-pressure rvs-type questions and he's voting IG based on the fact that he hasn't answered his questions. This in itself is not too damning, but I repeat that HE COULD BE VOTING HIS TOP SUSPICION (me) and would probably be a deciding vote in that regard. Also despite that he finds me the scummiest, he hasn't done anything about it. He has no suspicions other than me and his only reason for that is
ZU seems to me the most scummiest: his curtness is a mask for evasiveness, and his predecessor Fresh was dropping scum tells like they were going out of fashion.which not only is total BS, but is also total BS.
After puzzling over ZU's message for like ... ten minutes (+/- a day), I've concluded it's either meaningless, or he was telling me I smell bad.It doesn't, but the fact that you replied after I said that not answering is scummy is kinda scummy. The message was entirely meaningless and was designed in such a way that no good reply could be made in return. I don't remember the exact thing I sent, but this is the gist of it
Zombie Urist: Why exactly does not answering your message make me scummy?
Quote
"Always shower in fountains, because you never know the depth of the ocean."
Post by: Captain Ford on March 29, 2013, 06:41:10 pm
Alamoes: Good start. Follow up on those questions once they've got answers. But you need to respond to Zrk2's accusations against you.
Leafsnail: I don't see where Zrk2 backed down off his vote. He's still voting Alamoes, and his agreement was not him agreeing he was wrong, only agreeing with me about my assessment that he could still defend himself.
Tiruin:
I disagree with this. Towntells, scumtells, noobtells. People can mess up anywhichway possible. While, yes, he may have teammates coaching him - said teammates wouldn't probably be there to post @QT or personally steer his course right for him.True enough. I'm still getting a strong scum vibe from Freshman/ZU's corner, though.
While I do agree with his noobtell (of....voting himself.) His reasoning seems flawed in the sense of how he spends his vote.That was an accident that had to do with him not using quote tags. ZU did exactly the same thing, amusingly enough.
What marks him scummy in your book btw?Don't know. He hasn't done it yet.
Post by: Leafsnail on March 29, 2013, 06:50:25 pm
Post by: Captain Ford on March 29, 2013, 06:56:39 pm
Also, it's a link to the "quote" button for that post.
...And it doesn't actually include the question you're referring to.
Hmm...Imperial has had a lot of trouble keeping up with the questions he's been asked. I originally voted him for the same reasons you have, but he seemed to be improving so I moved on.
It doesn't seem to be malicious. He comes up with answers pretty readily when he does notice them.
Is there any reason why it's important for him to answer your question in particular?
PPE: Leafsnail
Post by: The Soldier on March 29, 2013, 07:14:55 pm
I assume your answer is here? (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=124225.msg4139851#msg4139851) If so, please answer this: who should be lynched today, and why? If not, please point me to the answer, I couldn't find anything else.Some questions for you: where have you been? You're voting ZU; do you want him lynched? If so, what's your case, and who's your second pick? What are your opinions of Okami no Rei, Deathsword, and Imperial Guardsman?Kinda answered that, although my grammar makes it hard to read, I think.
...
NQT:
P.S.So which case is it? Do answer again if your opinion changes after Hapah's post.
The Soldier, my read on Hapah is that best case is, he's well meaning and thinks there's something about my style that is scummy. Worst case, he's just picked a random person to wail upon so he looks active. He certainly doesn't have any sort of case, or if he does I'd sincerely like to see it.
General:
There are three hours left in the day, and the vote stands with 5 on Zrk2 and 4 on ZU. I would be happy with a lynch of either, as they both have done very little to find scum, but we really should come to a consensus to stop any potential shenanigans.
Post by: notquitethere on March 29, 2013, 07:27:35 pm
Ford, the broken link is small issue, but the previous three missives directed at him were all sound. Each time I'd attempted to link back to the previous time I asked him to answer my question. The content of my original quesion is besides the point- I'd like some kind of response! Until then, all I can do is keep up the pressure by not moving my vote and insisting on a reply.
ZU, you grossly misunderstood my reply to Hapah. I only meant to indicate that you seemed marginally more scummy than Zrk2. Also, unless my vote comes down to a tie breaker and town isn't extending, then there's no harm in me keeping the pressure on a player who, unlike you, hasn't responded to my questions. As for logical analysis, I can only do that when we have concrete information, like a flip.
Soldier, I'm not sure of Hapah's alignment- I'm not psychic, there's been no time to use an Inspect if I had one, there's no solid info from a flip and so, as I indicated, his possible alignment could be misplaced-town or malicious-scum, I just don't know.
Post by: Toaster on March 29, 2013, 08:48:33 pm
The Soldier:
notquitethere: Hapah, Zombie Urist
Vector:
Captain Ford:
Hapah:
Okami No Rei:
Deathsword:
Zrk2: Leafsnail, The Soldier, Okami No Rei, Tiruin, Deathsword
Leafsnail:
Imperial Guardsman: notquitethere
Tiruin:
alamoes:
Zombie Urist: alamoes, Imperial Guardsman, Zrk2, Vector
Not Voting: Captain Ford
Day 1 will last until until Friday, 3/29 at 11 PM EST, about 70 minutes from this post.
There are two votes to extend. Four total required to extend the day.
Post by: Hapah on March 29, 2013, 09:25:00 pm
Hm.I still stand beside my case against AlamoesBut... it was pressure, wasn't it?
I'd rather not extend, if we can get around it. I still don't see the mean of the Zrk2 case, but it appears you guys do. I guess we will see what happens!
Post by: alamoes on March 29, 2013, 09:36:15 pm
Post by: Vector on March 29, 2013, 09:57:50 pm
Post by: Toaster on March 29, 2013, 10:00:05 pm
Post by: Toaster on March 29, 2013, 10:42:46 pm
The Soldier:
notquitethere: Hapah, Zombie Urist
Vector:
Captain Ford:
Hapah:
Okami No Rei:
Deathsword:
Zrk2: Leafsnail, The Soldier, Okami No Rei, Tiruin, Deathsword
Leafsnail:
Imperial Guardsman: notquitethere
Tiruin:
alamoes:
Zombie Urist: alamoes, Imperial Guardsman, Zrk2, Vector
Not Voting: Captain Ford
The day draws to an end, and it is decided that Zrk2 is the most likely threat you face. He bows his head. “I am no villain, or foe of you all. But if I must die for this, then so be it.” He does not resist death.
Checking his body, you find a medal of bravery and a letter of commendation. It appears this Paladin just had the good of all in his heart.
With a sigh, you all head to your tents for the night, seeking safety from the others. What threats will the night bring?
Zrk2 has been lynched! He was a Paladin (Town).
Night 1 has begun! Night 1 will last until Monday, 4/1 at 11 PM EST. Given that this night spans a weekend, I will end the night early if I get all the night actions in, but in no less than 24 hours.
Post by: Toaster on March 31, 2013, 11:17:21 am
Post by: Toaster on April 01, 2013, 09:59:13 am
Tiruin is the first found. Face down in a bloody pool, she is clearly dead. From what you can tell, this Transmuter was innocent. Leafsnail is found next, equally dead. Searching him is more fruitful, though. A fragment of journal is found in his pocket, with scattered ramblings about what he would do after the others were gone. The page is ripped, though, so you can’t tell with whom he was working, though it’s clear he wasn’t alone.
After half an hour of searching, there’s simply no sign of Captain Ford. It doesn’t look like his tent was slept in last night, but all his gear is there and there’s a bit of dinner still sitting out, untouched. Where could he possibly be?
The rest of you give each other icy stares, then the arguments begin.
Leafsnail has been killed! He was a Ranger (Mafia).
Tiruin has been killed! She was a Transmuter (Town).
Captain Ford is missing.
Day 2 has begun! Day 2 will last until Thursday, 4/4 at 11 PM EST.
There are nine items in the public pool.
Post by: Zrk2 on April 01, 2013, 11:35:58 am
Post by: alamoes on April 01, 2013, 11:41:10 am
Post by: Imperial Guardsman on April 01, 2013, 12:01:41 pm
I dont know who killed leaf ( but i thank you ).
but who killed tiruin?
Post by: Tiruin on April 01, 2013, 12:41:39 pm
Everyone else is back. Bickering. As always.
And my only wish was to create the Philosopher's Stone. Made out of scrolls. Heh.
Wait, I'm a ghost. Bah.
At least a good kick up this cultist's face would give me satisfaction.
Heheh. Satisfaction.
/me has been slain! x_x
Identify Items? (Y/N)
Post by: notquitethere on April 01, 2013, 12:50:26 pm
Imperial Guardsman, I don't think scum are going to come right out and say who they are. If you had a nightkill item would you have used it last night, if so on whom?
We've had three flips, which is even more information than usual. In the hours and days to come I'll be looking back on the post record at interactions and reads by the dead (especially Leafsnail) to see if anything egregious sticks out.
Post by: Vector on April 01, 2013, 01:05:39 pm
Post by: Teneb on April 01, 2013, 01:10:23 pm
Deathsword. What do you think happened with Captain Ford?He was probably removed from the game by an item. Hopefuly it won't be permanent. What do you think?
NQT: Why do you think it was an artifact and not a more common item?
IG: Speculating on what might have happened at night is just that: speculation. The only way to know for sure what happened is if someone claims or once the game ends.
Post by: Imperial Guardsman on April 01, 2013, 01:12:43 pm
Imperial Guardsman, I don't think scum are going to come right out and say who they are. If you had a nightkill item would you have used it last night, if so on whom?yes. on zombie urist
Post by: Hapah on April 01, 2013, 01:12:58 pm
I think I remember someone going missing in a past game (Jim, maybe?). "Scroll of Phasing" is stuck in my head but don't know if it's an item or not.
Post by: Vector on April 01, 2013, 01:18:59 pm
Deathsword. What do you think happened with Captain Ford?He was probably removed from the game by an item. Hopefuly it won't be permanent. What do you think?
I am pretty sure that the first part of this is a trivial statement.
Post by: notquitethere on April 01, 2013, 02:04:31 pm
NQT: Why do you think it was an artifact and not a more common item?The sword was the only item I saw that could make someone disappear with no flip. If you can see a more common item that could have caused Ford to disappear then I'll accept it as the more likely cause. Why did you choose Ford to disappear?
Imperial Guardsman, thanks for the (overly short and unhelpful) reply. At least its better than your constant evasion from the last few days. Why would you kill ZU? What's your reasoning?
Hapah, and Jim never returned?
Post by: Hapah on April 01, 2013, 02:08:22 pm
No, I think he came back, but it's just a foggy memory. I just think I remember someone vanishing once and it wasn't due to Legacy Weapon, and the phrase "Scroll of Phasing" keeps coming up in my head.
Post by: notquitethere on April 01, 2013, 02:36:29 pm
Post by: The Soldier on April 01, 2013, 03:33:11 pm
Quote
The target is blocked and vanishes from the game tonight, and reappears at the end of the following day. All other actions on this target fail.
So, chances are that Ford will be back tomorrow.
Rereading the thread, a few things strike me.
1: Hapah is almost definitely not on the same team as Leafsnail. His arguments on posts 262, 267, and 269 seem too real to be staged.
2: I'm a sucker. Sorry 'bout that, Zrk.
3: ZU has done even less than I thought he had.
ZU: You spent most all of D1 defending yourself. Your only real attempts at scumhunting are here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=124225.msg4135708#msg4135708) and here. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=124225.msg4138353#msg4138353) Why shouldn't you be lynched today?
IG:
How can you know what you will do at night before you even quest for an item?Spoiler (click to show/hide)
no, i have not taken lessons from anybody. i am brand new, and paying attention to the personalities of others
i will wait during the night phase and hope that the mafia does not target me.
Okami no Rei:
Leafsnail flipped scum. Who are you suspicious of now?
Post by: zombie urist on April 01, 2013, 04:11:50 pm
Then what's the point of the question? And what happened to the experiment you were doing D1?I am pretty sure that the first part of this is a trivial statement.Deathsword. What do you think happened with Captain Ford?He was probably removed from the game by an item. Hopefuly it won't be permanent. What do you think?
ZU: You spent most all of D1 defending yourself. Your only real attempts at scumhunting are here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=124225.msg4135708#msg4135708) and here. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=124225.msg4138353#msg4138353) Why shouldn't you be lynched today?Because I'm not scum. Also because everyone's reasons for voting me are full of shit. Also also, I didn't spend "most all" of D1 defending myself.
ZU, you grossly misunderstood my reply to Hapah. I only meant to indicate that you seemed marginally more scummy than Zrk2. Also, unless my vote comes down to a tie breaker and town isn't extending, then there's no harm in me keeping the pressure on a player who, unlike you, hasn't responded to my questions. As for logical analysis, I can only do that when we have concrete information, like a flip.You didn't say that at all. You said "ZU seems to me the most scummiest" Since your English is pretty good, you should know about superlatives and stuff. In no way do I see the implication that you were comparing me and Zrk. Also, good job tunneling IG. To me, not wanting to vote anyone else seems like you're afraid of being part of a mislynch.
Post by: notquitethere on April 01, 2013, 04:44:12 pm
Are you being deliberately obtuse? The Soldier clearly sets up the two options for discussion as you and Zrk2, and my answer is that you were the most scummiest of the two. Is that so hard to understand? Anyone else disagree with me here?
The two main lynch candidates currently are ZU and Zrk2. Should either be lynched? Both? Neither? If neither, who should be lynched? What's your read on Hapah?ZU seems to me the most scummiest: his curtness is a mask for evasiveness, and his predecessor Fresh was dropping scum tells like they were going out of fashion. But since we've been granted an extension, we've got a little more time to form our reads.
As for Imp: keeping up a vote to pressure an evasive player who will not respond to your questions is one form of scum hunting. Maybe you might want to try it some time.
Post by: Vector on April 01, 2013, 06:01:16 pm
NQT is still scum, Vector is also scum. The Soldier might be scum. Scum scum scum.Then what's the point of the question? And what happened to the experiment you were doing D1?I am pretty sure that the first part of this is a trivial statement.Deathsword. What do you think happened with Captain Ford?He was probably removed from the game by an item. Hopefuly it won't be permanent. What do you think?
Perhaps you should pull your head out of your ass and think a little harder.
And once again, here is the conclusion of my experiment:
As for my experiment, sometimes when you nail scum you can sort of see the rest of the scumteam reforming up in the background. I've been townhunting for this past little bit, but now I've got some leads and can stop doing it. All this, of course, works better when no one knows exactly what you're doing.
Deathsword, for what reasons do you think an ostensibly town player might choose to phase out Ford?
Post by: Hapah on April 01, 2013, 06:26:32 pm
We've had three flips, which is even more information than usual. In the hours and days to come I'll be looking back on the post record at interactions and reads by the dead (especially Leafsnail) to see if anything egregious sticks out.Please do. I still think you're scum, though.
DeathswordHow do you know it was Deathsword? I don't think he's claimed having a hand in it.NQT: Why do you think it was an artifact and not a more common item?The sword was the only item I saw that could make someone disappear with no flip. If you can see a more common item that could have caused Ford to disappear then I'll accept it as the more likely cause. Why did you choose Ford to disappear?
What did you expect him to say? "I saw Ford pretend he was Solid Snake and hide inside a box"?I am pretty sure that the first part of this is a trivial statement.Deathsword. What do you think happened with Captain Ford?He was probably removed from the game by an item. Hopefuly it won't be permanent. What do you think?
The Soldier: Would you rather lynch a lurker or someone who is scummy? Do you think ZU is both?
Post by: Okami No Rei on April 01, 2013, 06:28:56 pm
If he ends up flipping town, I hope you don't mind if I push you hard on the morrow.Oops! Looks like I pushed a little too hard, a little too early. How clumsy of me.
Ah, well. Scratch one Scroll of Death. Scratch one Mafia.
Okami no Rei:zombie urist
Leafsnail flipped scum. Who are you suspicious of now?
ZU looks pretty scummy. I disagree with Vector's assertion that his current actions don't fit his meta - they seem to fit his scum meta pretty well, and they remind me of his behaviour in VLR (in which he was a spy). I would not be at all opposed to a ZU lynch, but I think a Zrk2 lynch is equally good and would rather not risk half-switching the votestack at this point (which could result in a no lynch or scum deciding the outcome).Is your scumbuddy bussing you, here?
I'm not seeing NQT scum at all. He seems to be struggling to express himself properly but I read a genuine desire to identify scum in basically all of his posts. Certainly I haven't seen the constant logical contortions I associate with scum-NQT.
Post by: Vector on April 01, 2013, 06:46:51 pm
I tracked Deathsword last night and he actioned Ford. I want to know why he did this.
Okami no Rei, why have you chosen to publicly announce that you killed Leafsnail?
Post by: Hapah on April 01, 2013, 07:04:03 pm
Post by: Okami No Rei on April 01, 2013, 07:14:25 pm
Okami no Rei, why have you chosen to publicly announce that you killed Leafsnail?Because my last experiment went so well. Trying to keep up the pace.
Post by: The Soldier on April 01, 2013, 07:16:51 pm
PPE: That is... an interesting catch indeed.
ZU:
First part: 'Everyone' seems like a strange word choice when you only had 2 votes on you, but whatever. Also, please explain how my reasoning of you doing essentially no hunting D1 is full of shit. Alsoalso, you're right that you weren't defending yourself all day. However, every post of yours other than the two I linked are either: a) only answering questions; b)fixing a mistake; or c) throwing über-softball questions.ZU: You spent most all of D1 defending yourself. Your only real attempts at scumhunting are here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=124225.msg4135708#msg4135708) and here. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=124225.msg4138353#msg4138353) Why shouldn't you be lynched today?Because I'm not scum. Also because everyone's reasons for voting me are full of shit. Also also, I didn't spend "most all" of D1 defending myself.ZU, you grossly misunderstood my reply to Hapah. I only meant to indicate that you seemed marginally more scummy than Zrk2. Also, unless my vote comes down to a tie breaker and town isn't extending, then there's no harm in me keeping the pressure on a player who, unlike you, hasn't responded to my questions. As for logical analysis, I can only do that when we have concrete information, like a flip.You didn't say that at all. You said "ZU seems to me the most scummiest" Since your English is pretty good, you should know about superlatives and stuff. In no way do I see the implication that you were comparing me and Zrk. Also, good job tunneling IG. To me, not wanting to vote anyone else seems like you're afraid of being part of a mislynch.
Second part: I am legitimately confused here. Are you attacking NQT for a grammar derp ("Most Scummiest" instead of "Most Scummy")?
Furthermore, he might be phased out today, but I'd still be interested in your opinion on Ford. You seemed convinced he was scum before you started attacking NQT.
Post by: Imperial Guardsman on April 01, 2013, 09:47:21 pm
Imperial Guardsman, thanks for the (overly short and unhelpful) reply. At least its better than your constant evasion from the last few days. Why would you kill ZU? What's your reasoning?He is very likely scum, and i dont want to take any chances
Post by: Imperial Guardsman on April 01, 2013, 09:52:11 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: The Soldier on April 01, 2013, 11:21:37 pm
Post by: notquitethere on April 02, 2013, 02:24:36 am
I would absolutely love to know how NQT is apparently aware of your track result.Obviously I didn't know, but I made an intelligent guess based on what Deathsword was choosing to focus on. If Vector's right then I think we have some serious questions to ask:
Deathsword
On what grounds did you deny town a vote for today?
ZU, what's your read on the Imperial Guardsman?
Is anyone else in a position to confirm or contradict Okami's claim to have killed LS with a one-shot?
Post by: Vector on April 02, 2013, 02:32:30 am
Post by: notquitethere on April 02, 2013, 02:53:54 am
Spoiler: Vector (click to show/hide)
Post by: Imperial Guardsman on April 02, 2013, 10:03:38 am
two, his active lurking is a pure scumtell.
Post by: Vector on April 02, 2013, 10:08:05 am
Spoiler: notquitethere (click to show/hide)
Post by: Imperial Guardsman on April 02, 2013, 10:20:11 am
Is anyone else in a position to confirm or contradict Okami's claim to have killed LS with a one-shot?
I read up on roguelike deaths.
Tiruin was found in a pool of blood, which in this setting would likely be a mafia factional kill.
Leafsnail was not, so it was likely a spell. or a scroll. of death.
(aspergersmodedeactivated)
Post by: zombie urist on April 02, 2013, 02:31:53 pm
First part: 'Everyone' seems like a strange word choice when you only had 2 votes on you, but whatever. Also, please explain how my reasoning of you doing essentially no hunting D1 is full of shit. Alsoalso, you're right that you weren't defending yourself all day. However, every post of yours other than the two I linked are either: a) only answering questions; b)fixing a mistake; or c) throwing über-softball questions.Did Hapah teach you how to count?
Second part: I am legitimately confused here. Are you attacking NQT for a grammar derp ("Most Scummiest" instead of "Most Scummy")?
Furthermore, he might be phased out today, but I'd still be interested in your opinion on Ford. You seemed convinced he was scum before you started attacking NQT.
Zombie Urist: alamoes, Imperial Guardsman, Zrk2, VectorAlso, because I did hunting. I looked at Ford, NQT, Vector, and to a lesser event.
Also also, I disagree. Conclusion: You're a liar liar liar.
2. No I'm attacking him because what he said he said is not what he actually said. He claims he meant "ZU is marginally scummier than Zrk2". He said "I think ZU is most scummiest". I don't see how what he said could mean that he means he said.
3. Where was I "convinced?". He was plenty scummy and still is. Its annoying how I can't question him, but oh well.
I don't, obviously. I was asking a leading question. I want Deathsword to show us why he was so sure Ford wasn't town.How do you know DS thinks Ford isn't town?
ZU, what's your read on the Imperial Guardsman?He's a hypocritical active lurking POS. Also, where is your logic analysis?
Extend midterms Wed+Thurs
Post by: Teneb on April 02, 2013, 02:41:25 pm
DeathswordNQT: How did you know it was me before Vector claimed?NQT: Why do you think it was an artifact and not a more common item?The sword was the only item I saw that could make someone disappear with no flip. If you can see a more common item that could have caused Ford to disappear then I'll accept it as the more likely cause. Why did you choose Ford to disappear?
Vector: How did NQT know it was me before you claimed?
More coming.
Post by: Teneb on April 02, 2013, 02:44:13 pm
Is anyone else in a position to confirm or contradict Okami's claim to have killed LS with a one-shot?
I read up on roguelike deaths.
Tiruin was found in a pool of blood, which in this setting would likely be a mafia factional kill.
Leafsnail was not, so it was likely a spell. or a scroll. of death.
(aspergersmodedeactivated)
It's just flavour. Toaster could write that Tiruin was disemboweled and it wouldn't change anything. In a bastard game this might have been useful, but I doubt this is the case here.
Post by: notquitethere on April 02, 2013, 03:12:29 pm
2. No I'm attacking him because what he said he said is not what he actually said. He claims he meant "ZU is marginally scummier than Zrk2". He said "I think ZU is most scummiest". I don't see how what he said could mean that he means he said.I said you were the most scummiest out of Zrk2 and ZU. You're the only person who has misread it and now you're sticking religiously to this bogus point. I've shown why I was only referring to you and Zrk2 in my last post so drop it.
Either DS thought Ford was scum or DS is scum.I don't, obviously. I was asking a leading question. I want Deathsword to show us why he was so sure Ford wasn't town.How do you know DS thinks Ford isn't town?
Thanks for the IG read, that's about what I was thinking, minus the implied profanity. My analysis will take time, I've just lined up four more weeks of work and so have less time for crunching than I'd anticipated.ZU, what's your read on the Imperial Guardsman?He's a hypocritical active lurking POS. Also, where is your logic analysis?
Deathsword
NQT: How did you know it was me before Vector claimed?See:
I'm just a better player than you give me credit. ;)I would absolutely love to know how NQT is apparently aware of your track result.Obviously I didn't know, but I made an intelligent guess based on what Deathsword was choosing to focus on.
Alamoes, you're being awfully quiet. Who's your top scumpick now?
Post by: Vector on April 02, 2013, 04:33:00 pm
On what is that gut-feeling predicated, Deathsword?
Post by: alamoes on April 02, 2013, 06:01:15 pm
Post by: notquitethere on April 02, 2013, 06:16:20 pm
He said he knew Captain Ford was town.Ha! No, seriously now. I never said I knew Ford was town, in fact I distinctly said to Vector that I didn't know:
Ho, NQT--how do you know that Captain Ford is town?
Spoiler: Vector (click to show/hide)
This is a blatant and lazy OMGUS-bandwagon combo vote. Try again, and this time put some thought into it.
Toaster, vote count please.
Post by: alamoes on April 02, 2013, 06:46:23 pm
Post by: notquitethere on April 02, 2013, 07:00:24 pm
Post by: Toaster on April 02, 2013, 09:50:58 pm
The Soldier:
notquitethere: zombie urist, Hapah, alamoes
Vector: Deathsword
Hapah:
Okami No Rei:
Deathsword: Vector
Imperial Guardsman:
alamoes: notquitethere
zombie urist: Imperial Guardsman, The Soldier, Okami No Rei
Not Voting:
Day 2 will last until Thursday, 4/4 at 11 PM EST.
Toaster, vote count please.
Sorry! Meant to do one this morning. Shame on me for lazy modding.
Post by: Hapah on April 02, 2013, 11:24:30 pm
Post by: Toaster on April 03, 2013, 03:03:46 pm
“My head... hurts. Ugh.” She starts swaying. Alamoes runs to prop her up, but she stands back up straight and pushes the hand away.
“Why are we arguing? We could be... partying!” She drops her pack, and takes off her travelling cloak. “I’m hungry. Anyone got some grub? We could eat bugs if there’s nothing. Hee hee, get it? Grub? Grub? Ahahaah!”
She starts running around the camp, patting people on the head as she passes. “Oh yeah, this is great! Wheeee! I’m having fuuuun!!!” She makes a couple more loops, then falls to the ground. She begins twitching.
“Ugh... too much fun. I can see.. spots? Figures? What are those?” The smile on her face turns into a mask of fear. “Wha... stay away! Get back! GET BACK!” she shrieks. She slaps away Notquitethere and Okami No Rei as they try to calm her down, then backs into a corner.
“Stay.. BACK... I CAN SEE... OH MY GOD!” Without warning, she whips out a knife at her side and plunges it into her right eye all the way to the hilt. She falls over on her face.
Everyone is too shocked to react. Eventually, Imperial Guardsman walks over and pokes her with his foot. Nothing- she’s quite dead. A quick check of her pack reveals nothing but archaeological notes about the wonders of this place. She’s not one of the ones working against you.
After a few minutes of stunned silence, the talking slowly begins again. Everyone is fearful- what has happened? Could they be next?
Vector has been killed! She was an Archaeologist (Town).
Votes have been reset.
Post by: Vector on April 03, 2013, 03:24:40 pm
Post by: Imperial Guardsman on April 03, 2013, 04:42:17 pm
Imperial Guardsman walks over and pokes her with his foot. Nothing- she’s quite dead.Oh, so im the idiot?
Post by: notquitethere on April 03, 2013, 05:25:18 pm
Congratulations ZU, I really do now think you're the scummiest. My next pick would be Deathsword, can you give me a compelling reason why he would be the better pick?
Imperial, stop worrying about the scenerio text and attend to the game at hand.
Does anyone (I'm looking at you Hapah) remember anything like this happening in a previous Roguelike? If so, what was it, why did scum do it, and what was the outcome?
Post by: Urist Imiknorris on April 03, 2013, 05:34:58 pm
Post by: Hapah on April 03, 2013, 06:04:24 pm
Pith helmets cause heatstroke.I lol'd.
Does anyone (I'm looking at you Hapah) remember anything like this happening in a previous Roguelike? If so, what was it, why did scum do it, and what was the outcome?I don't recall any daykills in any of the games I've played in.
Post tonight
Post by: Imperial Guardsman on April 03, 2013, 07:15:07 pm
Imperial, stop worrying about the scenerio text and attend to the game at hand.
Stop being so hostile toward me and attend to the game at hand.
Post by: Imperial Guardsman on April 03, 2013, 07:18:15 pm
Zombie Urist
Post by: The Soldier on April 03, 2013, 07:52:14 pm
Mod: Has the day-end time changed?
ZU:
That votecount's from Day 1. The mentioned "everyone" quote happened at the beginning of Day 2, when you did in fact have just 2 votes on you (myself and IG). The Hapah thing made me chuckle, for what it's worth.=cut for length=Did Hapah teach you how to count?Zombie Urist: alamoes, Imperial Guardsman, Zrk2, Vector
Also, because I did hunting. I looked at Ford, NQT, Vector, and to a lesser event.1: I suppose this is a matter of opinion. Your posted questions seem weak (see here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=124225.msg4135708#msg4135708)), and you stay in the background. It's difficult to be objective about quality of questions, so it's naturally subjective. I don't see how having a different opinion makes me a liar.
Also also, I disagree. Conclusion: You're a liar liar liar.
2. No I'm attacking him because what he said he said is not what he actually said. He claims he meant "ZU is marginally scummier than Zrk2". He said "I think ZU is most scummiest". I don't see how what he said could mean that he means he said.
3. Where was I "convinced?". He was plenty scummy and still is. Its annoying how I can't question him, but oh well.
2: Alright, confusion cleared up.
3: I say "convinced" because you focused entirely on Ford up until the point NQT came along. If you could vote him, would you?
Imperial Guardsman:
There's a question for you to answer here. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=124225.msg4146212#msg4146212)
Spoiler: Out of Game (click to show/hide)
Okami no Rei:
It's been a while since you posted. Where you at?
alamoes:
Same goes for you.
Spoiler: Out of Game (click to show/hide)
Post by: Imperial Guardsman on April 03, 2013, 07:54:24 pm
IG:Oh, never thought about that.How can you know what you will do at night before you even quest for an item?Spoiler (click to show/hide)
no, i have not taken lessons from anybody. i am brand new, and paying attention to the personalities of others
i will wait during the night phase and hope that the mafia does not target me.
Post by: Toaster on April 03, 2013, 08:29:15 pm
Imperial Guardsman walks over and pokes her with his foot. Nothing- she’s quite dead.Oh, so im the idiot?
Random.org decided which names to use in flavor.
Mod: Has the day-end time changed?
Since there were more than 24 hours left in the day when it happened, no.
Post by: Imperial Guardsman on April 03, 2013, 08:41:36 pm
Post by: Toaster on April 03, 2013, 09:00:11 pm
Post by: Okami No Rei on April 03, 2013, 10:18:57 pm
Okami no Rei:It has indeed been some time. I'm back now, and doing a reread.
It's been a while since you posted. Where you at?
Spoiler: Rant (click to show/hide)
Post by: Okami No Rei on April 03, 2013, 10:19:25 pm
Post by: Hapah on April 03, 2013, 10:22:04 pm
Whoever pulled off the daykill, mind claiming it? I'd like to pick your brain a little.
The Soldier:
Hapah: Lurking < Activelurking =< Scum. Lurking can be caused just by being busy, but activelurking is only done by scum trying to look active. I consider activelurking to be a scumtell, hence why I believe ZU is scum.The priority is good enough; but I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on ZU. I think he's just busy and trying to keep playing, not activelurking.
NQT
HapahReally? Mind explaining why? I think it makes Deathsword a more probable towny.I would absolutely love to know how NQT is apparently aware of your track result.Obviously I didn't know, but I made an intelligent guess based on what Deathsword was choosing to focus on. If Vector's right then I think we have some serious questions to ask:
DeathswordSlant that question any more and it'd be vertical.
On what grounds did you deny town a vote for today?
Either DS thought Ford was scum or DS is scum.Scroll of Phasing doubles as a poor man's protect. It's essentially a Jailor.
Deathsword was Vector's main target and vice versa, but Zombie Urist had the most to gain by resetting the vote.Wrong. You had the most to gain, far and away: it clears up any suspicions that you and Vector were a team. Unless you really think that ZU was spazzing out about the vote being tied with two entire days to go. Of course, it's possible someone else will claim killing Vector.
You are putting a completely negative spin on damn near everything. It feels like you are just trying to set up people for lynches, from where I'm standing.
(Tunnel tunnel chunnel tunnel)
Post by: Toaster on April 03, 2013, 10:27:19 pm
The Soldier:
notquitethere: Hapah,
Hapah:
Okami No Rei:
Deathsword:
Imperial Guardsman:
alamoes:
zombie urist: notquitethere, Imperial Guardsman, The Soldier,
Not Voting: Okami No Rei, Deathsword, alamoes, zombie urist,
Day has been extended. Day 2 will last until Friday, 4/5 at 11 PM EST.
Post by: zombie urist on April 04, 2013, 12:58:04 am
How is this hostile? If you're afraid of hostility, mafia isn't for you. Also, what you're doing is the dictionary definition of active lurking.Imperial, stop worrying about the scenerio text and attend to the game at hand.Stop being so hostile toward me and attend to the game at hand.
Well, that daykill happened. On the bright side, now we know NQT and Vector aren't a scumteam, as was possible with him seemingly knowing too much. Not sure if the day ends at the same time or not; going to assume it's the same for now. Also, Extend because ZU has midterms, and a few people have been absent.1. I said everyone's who was voting me were using terrible reasoning (and still are). Also I did hunting so saying I didn't is inaccurate.
That votecount's from Day 1. The mentioned "everyone" quote happened at the beginning of Day 2, when you did in fact have just 2 votes on you (myself and IG). The Hapah thing made me chuckle, for what it's worth.Also, because I did hunting. I looked at Ford, NQT, Vector, and to a lesser event.1: I suppose this is a matter of opinion. Your posted questions seem weak (see here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=124225.msg4135708#msg4135708)), and you stay in the background. It's difficult to be objective about quality of questions, so it's naturally subjective. I don't see how having a different opinion makes me a liar.
Also also, I disagree. Conclusion: You're a liar liar liar.
2. No I'm attacking him because what he said he said is not what he actually said. He claims he meant "ZU is marginally scummier than Zrk2". He said "I think ZU is most scummiest". I don't see how what he said could mean that he means he said.
3. Where was I "convinced?". He was plenty scummy and still is. Its annoying how I can't question him, but oh well.
2: Alright, confusion cleared up.
3: I say "convinced" because you focused entirely on Ford up until the point NQT came along. If you could vote him, would you?
3. That makes no sense. Also, no. I do have a bunch of questions for him, but that can wait.
Deathsword was Vector's main target and vice versa, but Zombie Urist had the most to gain by resetting the vote. Though the vote was tied, I could have easily put my decisive vote on ZU- while he couldn't do the same in return having already contributed to my own vote total. He, or one of his scum allies could have used a Scroll of Solar Flare (have I missed a more likely item?), with the intent of resetting the vote.Firstly, you're assuming I had the ability to kill Vector. Secondly, its pretty obvious that people are going to vote about the same as before. Thirdly, I don't like how you're setting up a ZU or DS one or the other must be scum kind of thing. No I am not going to help you build a case on DS. In fact I think you should vote for NQT.
Congratulations ZU, I really do now think you're the scummiest. My next pick would be Deathsword, can you give me a compelling reason why he would be the better pick?
DS: What was your gut feel on Ford? Did you kill Vector?
The Soldier: Why did you curse my armor?
Imperial Guardsman: Why are you a hypocritical active lurker?
Post by: The Soldier on April 04, 2013, 03:35:06 am
NQT:
Deathsword was Vector's main target and vice versa, but Zombie Urist had the most to gain by resetting the vote. Though the vote was tied, I could have easily put my decisive vote on ZU- while he couldn't do the same in return having already contributed to my own vote total. He, or one of his scum allies could have used a Scroll of Solar Flare (have I missed a more likely item?), with the intent of resetting the vote.Missed this post, and what a post to miss.
Congratulations ZU, I really do now think you're the scummiest. My next pick would be Deathsword, can you give me a compelling reason why he would be the better pick?
Imperial, stop worrying about the scenerio text and attend to the game at hand.
Does anyone (I'm looking at you Hapah) remember anything like this happening in a previous Roguelike? If so, what was it, why did scum do it, and what was the outcome?
Your new point against ZU is essentially WIFOM. Maybe ZU did it, to do as you describe. Maybe someone was really, really paranoid about Vector and just couldn't stand keeping their scroll any longer. Maybe someone did it to frame ZU. The point is, we don't know.
Furthermore, this is all operating under the assumption that you're right, and ZU does have the most to gain here. Hapah is right, in that it's actually you who has the most to gain. I had to think about it to realize that you can still be scum, just not scum with Vector.
This prompted a reread focusing on what you've said so far.
Day 1 is not too bad, barring this post here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=124225.msg4135169#msg4135169) and your lack of any real pressure on active players. In this post, you seem pretty quick to FoS zombie urist over minor stuff.
Day 2 has you refer to assumed circumstances as though they are fact (see here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=124225.msg4147523#msg4147523)). This isn't so bad by itself, but it's certainly different from you usual self, who has no problems at all with explaining what assumptions you're operating under before questioning begins. Later on is a false dichotomy ("Either DS thought Ford was scum or DS is scum."), and finally comes your latest post. It has the aforementioned WIFOM, more false dichotomy, and just generally feels like you're trying to pull the wool over the town's eyes.
Why is WIFOM your primary reason for switching to ZU?
alamoes, Imperial Guardsman:
You've both been passive the whole game so far, so I have a few requests for you:
1: Post a list of your reads on the players still living,
2: Give us your top 3 scumpicks (include reasons for each), and
3: Ask your top scumpick a good, solid question.
Post by: Teneb on April 04, 2013, 10:15:07 am
Hapah put it better, though.
IG:
NQTDo you mind giving us some reasons? That would be excellent.
Zombie Urist
Why do you think Zombie Urist is scum?
Post by: Teneb on April 04, 2013, 10:22:17 am
DS: What was your gut feel on Ford? Did you kill Vector?No, I didn't kill Vector. I didn't like how he was protecting alamoes (who should appear and post) as if he was completely sure of his alignment. My reads on him were null, so I decided not to take a risk and get him out of the game for a day.
Post by: notquitethere on April 04, 2013, 01:08:08 pm
You think? I guess I see getting rid of a town player during the day a pretty anti-town move, but I see your Jailer point that it could be used to protect Ford. But I got the impression from DS's reply that he saw Ford as a threat.Quote from: nqtObviously I didn't know, but I made an intelligent guess based on what Deathsword was choosing to focus on. If Vector's right then I think we have some serious questions to ask.Really? Mind explaining why? I think it makes Deathsword a more probable towny.
Quote
Sure, someone else might claim the Vector kill and hell, I'm not so blind as to see that anyone could have killed Vector for reasons I'm not seeing or no reason at all. Most people didn't seriously entertain the idea that because I guessed DS's action that I was on a scum team with Vector. Or did you think that?Deathsword was Vector's main target and vice versa, but Zombie Urist had the most to gain by resetting the vote.Wrong. You had the most to gain, far and away: it clears up any suspicions that you and Vector were a team. Unless you really think that ZU was spazzing out about the vote being tied with two entire days to go. Of course, it's possible someone else will claim killing Vector.
Quote
(Tunnel tunnel chunnel tunnel)I might be putting a negative spin on things but you're not putting any spin: it's all NQT said this and NQT said that. I'm beginning to think you might be a third party who's objective is tied to my death.
ZU
Firstly, you're assuming I had the ability to kill Vector. Secondly, its pretty obvious that people are going to vote about the same as before. Thirdly, I don't like how you're setting up a ZU or DS one or the other must be scum kind of thing. No I am not going to help you build a case on DS. In fact I think you should vote for NQT.Well I'm throwing the idea out there, applying pressure. You're handling it well, but you don't have a case against me. Who else benefits from Vector's death? It sure as hell aint me: you were enroute for a hanging, now the votes are reset it's more precarious and crucially DS can't vote for Vector now and is most likely to vote for me.
Soldier
Your new point against ZU is essentially WIFOM. Maybe ZU did it, to do as you describe. Maybe someone was really, really paranoid about Vector and just couldn't stand keeping their scroll any longer. Maybe someone did it to frame ZU. The point is, we don't know.As I pointed out above, I'm really not seeing how it would be in my favour to off Vector, but look, I take your point about WIFOM. Yeah, we don't know. Maybe it wasn't so helpful for me to speculate on why someone might have tried to get rid of Vector. I was always going to vote ZU, to break the tie if nothing else. Fresh was hyper scummy and ZU started the game being super unhelpful. Since then, he's barely hunted at all. He doesn't have a plausible case.
Furthermore, this is all operating under the assumption that you're right, and ZU does have the most to gain here. Hapah is right, in that it's actually you who has the most to gain. I had to think about it to realize that you can still be scum, just not scum with Vector.
Why is WIFOM your primary reason for switching to ZU?
DS
NQT: If I were scum, the last thing I'd do is kill Vector while she was questioning me. That's just stupid and attracts attention, something scum would never want.This is all WIFOM, me and you. I'm dropping the point. We don't know why Vector was killed and why they did it.
Post by: Imperial Guardsman on April 04, 2013, 01:28:46 pm
The Soldier:Town
notquitethere:Suspicious
Hapah:Slightly suspicious
Okami No Rei:Town
Deathsword:Very suspicious
alamoes:Town
zombie urist:Scum
Scumpicks
1.ZU, due to his posts, and his activity
2.Deathsword, due to the evidence against him
3.NQT, due to his behavior
ZU, do you know anything about Vector and Tiruin?
Post by: Okami No Rei on April 04, 2013, 09:50:01 pm
I can't see anyone being stupid enough to use a day-kill while they're involved in a tie vote just to reset the votecount, but I can see scum capitalizing on the opportunity to get rid of a strong Town player while simultaneously securing a near-guaranteed lynch on one of the tied individuals and introducing a boatload of WiFoM.
With that in mind:
notquitethere - If you had a Scroll of Solar Flare, and you were Scum, would you have picked Vector in your position?
zombie urist - If you had a Scroll of Solar Flare, and you were Town, can you see any reason you would use it on Vector?
Imperial Guardsmen - Would you kindly lend me a sentence or two regarding Hapah's designation as "Slightly Suspicious"?
Post by: Hapah on April 04, 2013, 11:01:53 pm
HapahI can't see why scum would waste a potential LYLO-breaker for the marginal benefits you'd get for using it N1, though. I wish someone would claim that daykill so I could talk to them, but it doesn't look like anyone is going to.You think? I guess I see getting rid of a town player during the day a pretty anti-town move, but I see your Jailer point that it could be used to protect Ford. But I got the impression from DS's reply that he saw Ford as a threat.Quote from: nqtObviously I didn't know, but I made an intelligent guess based on what Deathsword was choosing to focus on. If Vector's right then I think we have some serious questions to ask.Really? Mind explaining why? I think it makes Deathsword a more probable towny.
Sure, someone else might claim the Vector kill and hell, I'm not so blind as to see that anyone could have killed Vector for reasons I'm not seeing or no reason at all. Most people didn't seriously entertain the idea that because I guessed DS's action that I was on a scum team with Vector. Or did you think that?I don't know how you can speak for "most people". I thought it was a real enough possibility.
You could try to make that argument, sure: lynchers are definately a thing. I think most everything I've pointed out has been of interest.Quote(Tunnel tunnel chunnel tunnel)I might be putting a negative spin on things but you're not putting any spin: it's all NQT said this and NQT said that. I'm beginning to think you might be a third party who's objective is tied to my death.
Post by: zombie urist on April 05, 2013, 01:02:48 am
zombie urist - If you had a Scroll of Solar Flare, and you were Town, can you see any reason you would use it on Vector?If I was sure Vector was scum and I was really close to getting lynched probably.
ZU, do you know anything about Vector and Tiruin?Nope.
I might be putting a negative spin on things but you're not putting any spin: it's all NQT said this and NQT said that. I'm beginning to think you might be a third party who's objective is tied to my death.How is not putting any spin worse?
Well I'm throwing the idea out there, applying pressure. You're handling it well, but you don't have a case against me. Who else benefits from Vector's death? It sure as hell aint me: you were enroute for a hanging, now the votes are reset it's more precarious and crucially DS can't vote for Vector now and is most likely to vote for me.I totally have a case. The summary is until very recently, you've been focusing on weaker players and not pushing any cases. Also you let Zrk2 get lynched even though you thought I was scummier. Then you start the day focused on lurkers.
As I pointed out above, I'm really not seeing how it would be in my favour to off Vector, but look, I take your point about WIFOM. Yeah, we don't know. Maybe it wasn't so helpful for me to speculate on why someone might have tried to get rid of Vector. I was always going to vote ZU, to break the tie if nothing else. Fresh was hyper scummy and ZU started the game being super unhelpful. Since then, he's barely hunted at all. He doesn't have a plausible case.You're still making the mistake of assuming whoever killed Vector must be scum and that everyone had the ability to kill Vector. Also, saying I've barely hunted is a blatant lie. Liar liar liar to you too. And I do have a case.
zombie urist: I didn't curse your armor. Why do you think I did?Hmmm.... then who did? :o
Imperial Guardian:
Imperial Guardsman: Why are you a hypocritical active lurker?
also:
1.ZU, due to his posts, and his activity1. which posts?
2.Deathsword, due to the evidence against him
3.NQT, due to his behavior
2. what evidence?
3. what about his behavior?
Post by: Teneb on April 05, 2013, 09:55:15 am
The Soldier:Town
notquitethere:Suspicious
Hapah:Slightly suspicious
Okami No Rei:Town
Deathsword:Very suspicious
alamoes:Town
zombie urist:Scum
Scumpicks
1.ZU, due to his posts, and his activity
2.Deathsword, due to the evidence against him
3.NQT, due to his behavior
ZU, do you know anything about Vector and Tiruin?
You know, these reads are very nice and all, but would you mind to give us some fucking reasons behind each one? And not generic ones like in the scumpicks (as ZU adressed).
Post by: Imperial Guardsman on April 05, 2013, 10:33:17 am
The Soldier:Town, the most inquisitive of us, not acting scummy
notquitethere:Suspicious,takes place in few discussions, asks very few hard questions
Hapah:Slightly suspicious, a bit inactive, and not asking that many questions
Okami No Rei:Town, mafia kill
Deathsword:Very suspicious, due to the vote count and circumstances with vectors death
alamoes:Town, not acting suspicious, and has not done anything scummy
zombie urist:Scum, see deathsword, and he had the most to gain from a full vote reset
Scumpicks
1.ZU, due to his posts, and his activity, see above
2.Deathsword, see above
3.NQT, BIT of inactivity, slightly scummy behavior, and not asking questions about townie deaths
ZU, do you know anything about Vector and Tiruin?
Post by: notquitethere on April 05, 2013, 03:26:43 pm
notquitethere - If you had a Scroll of Solar Flare, and you were Scum, would you have picked Vector in your position?It depends: if ZU was my scum buddy, resetting the vote to save him and aiming to get the second scummiest looking (town) player lynched instead would make sense, but why Vector? Well, she wasn't hostile to NQT so she couldn't be relied on to not vote ZU the second time round. But if I were scum, me NQT, it would make no sense for me to pick Vector. She wasn't hostile towards me in scum-hunting terms and she wasn't on my lynch. She was obviously town, which makes her a target for scum in general, but there was no reason that I can see to use Solar Flare on her in particular.
Post by: Toaster on April 05, 2013, 07:48:28 pm
The Soldier:
notquitethere: Hapah, Deathsword, Okami No Rei, zombie urist
Hapah:
Okami No Rei:
Deathsword:
Imperial Guardsman:
alamoes:
zombie urist: notquitethere, Imperial Guardsman, The Soldier
Not Voting: alamoes
Day 2 will last until Friday, 4/5 at 11 PM EST, ~2 hours from this post. MOD NOTE- I may be running a bit late with this day end.
Post by: zombie urist on April 05, 2013, 07:55:55 pm
also almoes may need a prod
Post by: Toaster on April 05, 2013, 08:10:08 pm
Two prods have been issued.
Post by: Imperial Guardsman on April 05, 2013, 08:22:26 pm
ZU is next, NQT is more dangerous scum
Post by: Okami No Rei on April 05, 2013, 08:25:20 pm
She was obviously town, which makes her a target for scum in general, but there was no reason that I can see to use Solar Flare on her in particular.How was she obviously town? Can you show me what tipped you off to her being obvTown prior to her death?
Post by: Okami No Rei on April 05, 2013, 08:27:16 pm
Unvote. NQT.I'd love to see some elaboration here.
ZU is next, NQT is more dangerous scum
Post by: alamoes on April 05, 2013, 08:32:26 pm
Post by: Okami No Rei on April 05, 2013, 08:34:42 pm
I'm still voting for NQTMight want to check the vote-count, there. Vector died and reset the votes.
Post by: alamoes on April 05, 2013, 08:52:25 pm
((I always wanted to use that face. ))
I'll get to reading. ::)
Post by: alamoes on April 05, 2013, 08:57:00 pm
Post by: Imperial Guardsman on April 05, 2013, 08:59:19 pm
Vector stands up.
“My head... hurts. Ugh.” She starts swaying. Alamoes runs to prop her up, but she stands back up straight and pushes the hand away.
“Why are we arguing? We could be... partying!” She drops her pack, and takes off her travelling cloak. “I’m hungry. Anyone got some grub? We could eat bugs if there’s nothing. Hee hee, get it? Grub? Grub? Ahahaah!”
She starts running around the camp, patting people on the head as she passes. “Oh yeah, this is great! Wheeee! I’m having fuuuun!!!” She makes a couple more loops, then falls to the ground. She begins twitching.
“Ugh... too much fun. I can see.. spots? Figures? What are those?” The smile on her face turns into a mask of fear. “Wha... stay away! Get back! GET BACK!” she shrieks. She slaps away Notquitethere and Okami No Rei as they try to calm her down, then backs into a corner.
“Stay.. BACK... I CAN SEE... OH MY GOD!” Without warning, she whips out a knife at her side and plunges it into her right eye all the way to the hilt. She falls over on her face.
Everyone is too shocked to react. Eventually, Imperial Guardsman walks over and pokes her with his foot. Nothing- she’s quite dead. A quick check of her pack reveals nothing but archaeological notes about the wonders of this place. She’s not one of the ones working against you.
After a few minutes of stunned silence, the talking slowly begins again. Everyone is fearful- what has happened? Could they be next?
Vector has been killed! She was an Archaeologist (Town).
Post by: Toaster on April 05, 2013, 10:21:09 pm
Post by: Toaster on April 05, 2013, 11:13:23 pm
He pulls out a magic looking rod, and holds it aloft. “Behold! I shall cause your brains to explode! Buaahahaha!” He points it forward, and focuses.
Nothing happens.
“What? Zodank, I appeal to you! Smite these sheep so I may dine on their brains! Aaargh!” Imperial Guardsman steps back, blood on his blade. Notquitethere groans. “Damn... you.. all..” He collapses on his face. The rod flies from his hand and shatters, its pieces dissolving into a purple cloud.
It’s clear he was working against you, and from what you can piece together from the insane ramblings in his journal, he was working against everyone. But something tells you you’re not safe yet.
As you depart for your tents, there is a magical crack, and a portal opens in the ceiling. Captain Ford falls out and lands heavily. He stands up and swears, but seems otherwise fine, and is unable to explain his absence. Finally, you depart for your tents.
What will the night bring?
Notquitethere has been lynched! He was a Paladin (Serial Killer)!
Captain Ford has returned to the game.
Night 2 has begun! Night 2 will last until Monday, 4/8 at 11 PM EST.
Post by: notquitethere on April 06, 2013, 03:26:29 am
Post by: Tiruin on April 06, 2013, 10:22:04 am
Me? I'm just a silly ghost transmuting the carbon dioxide to oxygen in this smelly, dank place.[/chemistryoverload] :P
Post by: Toaster on April 08, 2013, 10:02:02 pm
That means the one of you COUGH COUGH who hasn't send in a night action gets one last chance.
Post by: Toaster on April 09, 2013, 09:11:36 am
Breakfast is finished and the discussion begins. Will this mystery be solved?
Captain Ford has been killed! He was a Mage (Town).
Day 3 has begun! Day 3 will last until Friday, 4/12 at 11 PM EST.
There are 13 items in the public pool.
Post by: zombie urist on April 09, 2013, 02:02:29 pm
Imperial Guardsman:
Imperial Guardian:Imperial Guardsman: Why are you a hypocritical active lurker?
Post by: Teneb on April 09, 2013, 03:15:46 pm
I am not feeling well at all and can't focus enough to play. I am sorry.
Post by: Captain Ford on April 09, 2013, 03:36:06 pm
...
BAH.
Post by: Toaster on April 09, 2013, 11:03:54 pm
Post by: Hapah on April 09, 2013, 11:55:10 pm
Post by: Hapah on April 10, 2013, 10:07:36 am
*cricket chirps*
Okami: What do you think of IG now?
IG, ZU, alamoes, The Soldier: Nothing to say, folks?
Post by: alamoes on April 10, 2013, 11:14:41 am
Post by: alamoes on April 10, 2013, 11:15:06 am
Post by: zombie urist on April 10, 2013, 01:15:55 pm
Almoes: Says to what?
I don't have anything really to go on. Last night I watched Okami and saw that Ford visited him.
I still want to know who cursed my armor N1.
I'm guessing there's 2 scum left out of the 7 of us. I think its either DS/IG or DS/alamoes.
Post by: Imperial Guardsman on April 10, 2013, 01:42:30 pm
Post by: Imperial Guardsman on April 10, 2013, 01:45:30 pm
have fun waiting for an answer
Imperial Guardsman:Imperial Guardian:Imperial Guardsman: Why are you a hypocritical active lurker?
also, gets phased out of the game only to be magically killed or strangled to death or something. really cant catch a break
Post by: Hapah on April 10, 2013, 02:34:00 pm
deathswordWhy?
Post by: zombie urist on April 11, 2013, 11:49:02 am
Post by: Toaster on April 11, 2013, 12:04:03 pm
Also, prod prod. Game is still active!
Post by: zombie urist on April 11, 2013, 01:30:42 pm
Post by: Hapah on April 11, 2013, 02:03:14 pm
Lurkers: Do something, folks.
Extend.
Post by: Imperial Guardsman on April 11, 2013, 04:50:20 pm
hapah, i posted an analysis of all the players
if you wont read i wont post
Post by: Okami No Rei on April 12, 2013, 12:03:11 am
Me, but work is destroying me right now.Same here. I can't catch a break.
Extend - I'd like this day to run through the weekend. I'll have time to play then.
Okami: What do you think of IG now?See below.
Okami No Rei, i would not be surprised if you ended up like tiruinHonest opinion, or clumsy mafia threat?
hapah, i posted an analysis of all the playersNo, you posted a summary of an analysis.
if you wont read i wont post
Imperial Guardsman - I believe you're being deliberately obtuse in order to limit our ability to analyze your play. We've asked you repeatedly to explain yourself, and yet you've remained lamentably laconic. Please correct this behavior and provide some substantive explanations of your reads, as otherwise I have no problem with seeing you hang.
Post by: Hapah on April 12, 2013, 01:25:18 pm
We've got 2 people requesting replacements. The only active players are myself, Okami, IG, alamoes, and ZU.
alamoes: He said something. What do you think now?
IG: You can't just put a vote out there and call it a day. You need to explain why DS is the right lynch choice, and you need to try to get people onboard.
ZU: Why are you voting IG?
Post by: zombie urist on April 12, 2013, 02:06:40 pm
The only active players are myself, Okami, IG, alamoes, and ZU.lol.
ZU: Why are you voting IG?Activelurking + bandwagoning.
Hmm... not sure if I want to extend if no one's gonna play.
Post by: zombie urist on April 12, 2013, 02:09:09 pm
Okami claimed to have killed LS night 1. But then what happened to NQT's kill?
Hmm...
Post by: Hapah on April 12, 2013, 02:14:03 pm
Yeah, poor choice of words, lol.
Toaster: Do SK's get a built-in kill, like the scum do?
Post by: Toaster on April 12, 2013, 02:33:34 pm
The Soldier:
Hapah:
Okami No Rei:
Deathsword: Imperial Guardsman
Imperial Guardsman: zombie urist, Okami No Rei
alamoes:
zombie urist:
Not Voting: The Soldier, Hapah, Deathsword, alamoes
Day has been Extended. Day 3 will last until Monday, 4/15 at 11 PM EST.
Toaster: Do SK's get a built-in kill, like the scum do?
No. However, third parties can be granted extra or unique items for purposes of balance; this has happened in Roguelikes 3 and 5, including two Serial Killers in Roguelike 5.
Post by: Hapah on April 12, 2013, 02:35:25 pm
Thanks boss. The DK on D2 was probably NQT shooting from the hip (unless someone wants to claim it?)
Post by: Imperial Guardsman on April 13, 2013, 06:33:39 am
Did anyone remember the evidence against him??
also, something just came up. something being miner mafia starting
2 mafia gonna be inactive De arimasu.
Post by: Tiruin on April 13, 2013, 08:12:25 am
Quote
« Last Edit: Today at 06:37:05 am by Imperial Guardsman »
NO EDITING OF POSTS.
*Tiruin returns back to the deadchat where party is to be had.
Post by: alamoes on April 13, 2013, 11:39:56 am
Tough times in the family.
Post by: Hapah on April 13, 2013, 12:12:45 pm
unvote, zombie uristNo, refresh my memory.
Did anyone remember the evidence against him??
also, something just came up. something being miner mafia starting
2 mafia gonna be inactive De arimasu.
I'm going to call for a replacement.No worries boss. Hope everything goes alright.
Tough times in the family.
Post by: zombie urist on April 14, 2013, 04:14:41 pm
Okami: where's the post you were going to make over the weekend?
Hapah: why aren't you voting?
Post by: Toaster on April 15, 2013, 09:17:30 am
Alamoes has requested a replace.
Vote Count:
The Soldier:
Hapah:
Okami No Rei:
lordnincompoop:
Imperial Guardsman: zombie urist, Okami No Rei
alamoes:
zombie urist: Imperial Guardsman
Not Voting: The Soldier, Hapah, lordnincompoop, alamoes
Day has been Mod-Extended due to replacement. Day 3 will last until Tuesday, 4/16 at 11 PM EST.
Post by: zombie urist on April 15, 2013, 01:48:07 pm
Post by: Hapah on April 15, 2013, 02:46:06 pm
Hapah: why aren't you voting?I was actually wondering if the game was going to take a hiatus because we were down half of the players. At least we're at 5 of 7, now. I could vote IG for being generally unhelpful, but I can't tell if he's scummy or just really really new. Like, for example:
IG
What is this, IG?have fun waiting for an answer
Imperial Guardsman:Imperial Guardian:Imperial Guardsman: Why are you a hypocritical active lurker?
also, gets phased out of the game only to be magically killed or strangled to death or something. really cant catch a break
Post by: lordnincompoop on April 15, 2013, 03:27:32 pm
LNCP: What are your reads on IG and Alamoes?
Though I've been keeping an eye on the game, I haven't been keeping that close an eye, so I can only give surface readings for now - mostly on playstyle.
Imperial Guardsman is, frankly, entirely unhelpful. He doesn't make cases, and his daygame is much worse than a lot of newbies that I've seen come in this past year plus Org, and that makes it harder to read him. I'm getting the sense that even if he was scum, I would be hard pressed to tell.
Alamoes plays like your standard newbie, at least on surface inspection. I haven't been looking for scumtells yet, as I've mentioned.
Post by: Toaster on April 16, 2013, 01:55:51 pm
Post by: Hapah on April 16, 2013, 02:09:07 pm
Post by: Hapah on April 16, 2013, 08:07:46 pm
Post by: Toaster on April 16, 2013, 10:11:26 pm
The Soldier has been modkilled! He was a Paladin (Town)!
Alamoes has been modkilled! He was an Archaeologist (Mafia)!
Votes have been reset! Day has been extended.
Day 3 will last until Wednesday, 4/17 at 11 PM EST.
No more replacements needed.
Post by: zombie urist on April 16, 2013, 10:24:02 pm
Town: Leafsnail (has some good points, especially on bandwagons)Meh. I think its probably LNCP. Lots of scummy things here.
Null: Everyone not mentioned
Slightly scummy: Vector (this "experiment" is a bit suspicious. I am willing to wait to see if you divulge the information on D2 or not), Ford (Defending alamoes. But defending people seems to be his thing, hence why only slightly), alamoes (could give some reasons for his votes), IG (gut feeleing)
Scummy:Zrk2 (Ignores entire posts directed to him, ignores parts of posts instead answering only the less substantial parts, saying "if you think I am scum, vote me" which looks like scum trying to look a martyr), ZU (Laconic, behaviour of his predecessor)
Are there hammers? If not I'll change my FoS on Zrk2 to a vote.
Post by: Hapah on April 16, 2013, 10:47:48 pm
Post by: Okami No Rei on April 16, 2013, 11:56:49 pm
Okami: where's the post you were going to make over the weekend?My attempt at prescience failed me, and my weekend turned out to be unexpectedly full of high-priority, unpleasant tasks.
Imperial Guardsmen - You've posted once since I said this:
I believe you're being deliberately obtuse in order to limit our ability to analyze your play. We've asked you repeatedly to explain yourself, and yet you've remained lamentably laconic. Please correct this behavior and provide some substantive explanations of your reads, as otherwise I have no problem with seeing you hang.I saw neither a rebuttal nor an explanation for your play, nor was your new post particularly enlightening.
Post by: zombie urist on April 16, 2013, 11:57:24 pm
LS flipped mafia, so this looks like backing up a fellow mafia player. Also the bandwagon point is TERRIBLE.
The null part is incredibly lazy.
The slightly scummy part is kinda lazy too and he pretty much copied what I said about Ford. Note that what he said about Alamoes sounds like advice.
The scummy part is mostly BS and repeated arguments.
And he's being too cautious on the hammer thing.
ppe'd Okami
Post by: Hapah on April 17, 2013, 12:37:12 am
Post by: zombie urist on April 17, 2013, 12:58:11 am
Day 3 will last until Wednesday, 4/17 at 11 PM EST.Its still 4/16 where I live. 8)
Post by: lordnincompoop on April 17, 2013, 01:58:22 am
Alright. I'm sifting through the first two days, and this is what I can see:
Imperial Guardsman's voting pattern has consisted of voting people that start to have votes piled on them and FOSing other people in similar situations. He skims from cases and takes those as arguments when asked. I really don't see what he has contributed to this game himself - it smells of "I can't be bothered to investigate myself" rather than "I'm new/a flaming idiot".
I can see where people voting him get their cases, but I don't think it's him. I'd be surprised, in fact, if it was - a scum player wouldn't play this way. There have been quiet scum, and it's a tactic that's been used several times (refer to scum Think in some Paranormal game), but usually when it's this blatant it's just a jackass town half-assing the game. You can see that in BMs, and that's where a lot of other noobs will pick it up and vote the lurker for lack of a better choice (or because of by-the-book play). I've only seen one case of this as scum before, and that was in KOTM with BDthemag, who was overall a terrible player.
Alamoes is very quiet. Sure, he has posted a bit, but little content. He's answered questions and posted commentary one-liners; his investigations are in the BM-RVS style that usually leads nowhere, and he claims to read the thread but shows little for it. He makes little comment on what he has found or what he's doing, and other than the RVS mentioned doesn't try to pursue a case. His D2 case on NQT is weak; while the one point he has is revealing, the town flip notwithstanding, he doesn't mention anything else.
Since you all have been waiting long enough for a post from me, I'll leave this here for now and come back when I've done a thorough dig-through for all of you. Now that there are fewer players it shouldn't take as long.
Extend.
To expand on what I said above:
LS flipped mafia, so this looks like backing up a fellow mafia player. Also the bandwagon point is TERRIBLE.
The null part is incredibly lazy.
The slightly scummy part is kinda lazy too and he pretty much copied what I said about Ford. Note that what he said about Alamoes sounds like advice.
The scummy part is mostly BS and repeated arguments.
And he's being too cautious on the hammer thing.
ppe'd Okami
Frankly, Deathsword isn't all that great a player. I can't read my predecessor's mind, but I'll try my best to defend myself.
The first and last point is TERRIBLE. Why? Because not only was Leafsnail's Zrk2 lynch incredibly popular at the time that your quote was written, his case was one that was well received. Note what Okami (at least prior to that kill-announce), The Soldier, Vector, and Tiruin have done during D1. Your argument, had they been alive to be applied to, would just as easily do for them - and they've flipped town, so their behaviour is in earnest. Why not mine?
The bandwagon point is not related to the game, so I don't see how you can discredit his position by emphasising that.
"The null part is incredibly lazy" is not only inapplicable, it is blatant use of hyperbole. You know that. He gave you his reads - had he said "Oh, everyone is null right now" I'd have agreed, but there is nothing wrong with saying that you don't have a confirmed alignment for someone.
Now, your point about alamoes is, if I read that sentence correctly, as follows: He seems to be giving advice to alamoes. Now, that means he's probably scum, since scum would want to support his fellows and give advice to them. While this is good on surface inspection, what is wrong about this line of thought?
It's wrong because it's not grounded in reality. The reality is that scum have a scumchat. That means that they can communicate privately. More to the point, it means that this subtle advice-giving under the table or what have you is all unnecessary. The only alignments forced to do this would be those without private chats, and what are they? Town, or third-parties, the latter of which don't have a motive to work with others.
Unless, y'know, it was to help a noob. Players aren't solely mafia-motivated.
Post by: Hapah on April 17, 2013, 09:13:12 am
Toaster: I'm assuming the day doesn't end today? (4/17)Nevermind this, I went full derp.
Post by: Toaster on April 17, 2013, 02:40:35 pm
(or one more vote to extend and it'll extend anyway)
Post by: Hapah on April 17, 2013, 02:47:02 pm
Extendify.
Post by: Toaster on April 17, 2013, 02:52:25 pm
Vote Count:
Hapah:
Okami No Rei:
lordnincompoop: zombie urist
Imperial Guardsman:
zombie urist: Okami No Rei
Not Voting: Hapah, lordnincompoop, Imperial Guardsman
Day has been extended. Day 3 will last until Thursday, 4/18 at 11 PM EST.
Post by: Hapah on April 17, 2013, 02:57:23 pm
Post by: Hapah on April 17, 2013, 07:42:32 pm
Imperial Guardsman's voting pattern has consisted of voting people that start to have votes piled on them and FOSing other people in similar situations. He skims from cases and takes those as arguments when asked. I really don't see what he has contributed to this game himself - it smells of "I can't be bothered to investigate myself" rather than "I'm new/a flaming idiot".I'd say there's no reason it can't be both, but basically agree.
I can see where people voting him get their cases, but I don't think it's him. I'd be surprised, in fact, if it was - a scum player wouldn't play this way. There have been quiet scum, and it's a tactic that's been used several times (refer to scum Think in some Paranormal game), but usually when it's this blatant it's just a jackass town half-assing the game. You can see that in BMs, and that's where a lot of other noobs will pick it up and vote the lurker for lack of a better choice (or because of by-the-book play). I've only seen one case of this as scum before, and that was in KOTM with BDthemag, who was overall a terrible player.I would like to point out that if it is IG, the scumteam at the start of D2 was alamoes/IG, and since this isn't a BM they wouldn't have a "scum IC" and thus would have no guidance. If they were rudderless like that you might expect to see a visible drop in the quality of their posts and their convictions or lines of thought, given the missing direction. While you can kinda see this will alamoes (check out his late D1 and all of his D2 posts for reference), I don't really see that sort of shift in IG.
Quote from: LNCP
The trouble with this is that if a mediocre player shows a sudden, marked improvement in their play, people can get suspicious. This goes double when there is no apparent source of advice prompting the change.Quote from: ZU-snip-It's wrong because it's not grounded in reality. The reality is that scum have a scumchat. That means that they can communicate privately. More to the point, it means that this subtle advice-giving under the table or what have you is all unnecessary. The only alignments forced to do this would be those without private chats, and what are they? Town, or third-parties, the latter of which don't have a motive to work with others.
Note that what he said about Alamoes sounds like advice
I imagine there's likely just one scum left, yeah? It's a pretty short list at this point.
IG: I am a patient man, but you can either show your face or you can get lynched. Do something, guy. You haven't even poked your head in since Saturday morning.
Okami: What are your current reads?
ZU: What do you mean by "the hammer thing" in your LNCP accusation post?
Post by: zombie urist on April 17, 2013, 08:34:28 pm
ZU: What do you mean by "the hammer thing" in your LNCP accusation post?DS didn't want to vote Zrk2 unless he was sure there was no hammers. I think its because hammering a town is obviously suspicious.
I would like to point out that if it is IG, the scumteam at the start of D2 was alamoes/IG, and since this isn't a BM they wouldn't have a "scum IC" and thus would have no guidance. If they were rudderless like that you might expect to see a visible drop in the quality of their posts and their convictions or lines of thought, given the missing direction. While you can kinda see this will alamoes (check out his late D1 and all of his D2 posts for reference), I don't really see that sort of shift in IG.So IG didn't show a drop after the good scum died so is he scum? Dunno what you're trying to say here.
Frankly, Deathsword isn't all that great a player. I can't read my predecessor's mind, but I'll try my best to defend myself.Vector said she was "not sure" (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=124225.msg4140108#msg4140108). Okami didn't really believe LS and tried to trick him by purposefully acting scummy. Tiruin straight up disagreed and voted for LS. The Soldier was said LS seemed town, but he wasn't very sure about it.
The first and last point is TERRIBLE. Why? Because not only was Leafsnail's Zrk2 lynch incredibly popular at the time that your quote was written, his case was one that was well received. Note what Okami (at least prior to that kill-announce), The Soldier, Vector, and Tiruin have done during D1. Your argument, had they been alive to be applied to, would just as easily do for them - and they've flipped town, so their behaviour is in earnest. Why not mine?
The bandwagon point is not related to the game, so I don't see how you can discredit his position by emphasising that.
"The null part is incredibly lazy" is not only inapplicable, it is blatant use of hyperbole. You know that. He gave you his reads - had he said "Oh, everyone is null right now" I'd have agreed, but there is nothing wrong with saying that you don't have a confirmed alignment for someone.
Now, your point about alamoes is, if I read that sentence correctly, as follows: He seems to be giving advice to alamoes. Now, that means he's probably scum, since scum would want to support his fellows and give advice to them. While this is good on surface inspection, what is wrong about this line of thought?
It's wrong because it's not grounded in reality. The reality is that scum have a scumchat. That means that they can communicate privately. More to the point, it means that this subtle advice-giving under the table or what have you is all unnecessary. The only alignments forced to do this would be those without private chats, and what are they? Town, or third-parties, the latter of which don't have a motive to work with others.
Unless, y'know, it was to help a noob. Players aren't solely mafia-motivated.
LS purposefully tried to sabotage town by saying its ok to bandwagon. Basically only DS agreed. Letting people bandwagon is a VERY BAD idea.
Sorry but the feel of that part just feels more lazy than usual.
In actual reality, just because scumchat exists doesn't mean theres no communication in thread. I think that this was just a minor reminder. I also notice that DS was not afraid to attack newbies (as he did to Freshman).
Post by: Hapah on April 17, 2013, 09:59:20 pm
And playing a game without knowing the rules is obviously stupid. I'd wanna know if there were hammers before I put down a potential hammervote too; people should be given the chance to explain themselves unless they are beyond a doubt guilty. Do you agree?ZU: What do you mean by "the hammer thing" in your LNCP accusation post?DS didn't want to vote Zrk2 unless he was sure there was no hammers. I think its because hammering a town is obviously suspicious.
My apologies. I mean that if there is a 3-man scumteam of LS/Ala/IG, D2 would start with IG and alamoes. As they are both very new, and they had lost their ringleader, I would expect the quality of their posts to decrease without LS guiding them along. I saw this with alamoes (compare his late D1 and all his D2 post for yourself), but I didn't see it with IG.I would like to point out that if it is IG, the scumteam at the start of D2 was alamoes/IG, and since this isn't a BM they wouldn't have a "scum IC" and thus would have no guidance. If they were rudderless like that you might expect to see a visible drop in the quality of their posts and their convictions or lines of thought, given the missing direction. While you can kinda see this will alamoes (check out his late D1 and all of his D2 posts for reference), I don't really see that sort of shift in IG.So IG didn't show a drop after the good scum died so is he scum? Dunno what you're trying to say here.
Post by: zombie urist on April 17, 2013, 11:17:44 pm
Post by: Hapah on April 17, 2013, 11:28:42 pm
Post by: lordnincompoop on April 18, 2013, 01:50:14 pm
Extend.
Vector said she was "not sure" (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=124225.msg4140108#msg4140108). Okami didn't really believe LS and tried to trick him by purposefully acting scummy. Tiruin straight up disagreed and voted for LS. The Soldier was said LS seemed town, but he wasn't very sure about it.
LS purposefully tried to sabotage town by saying its ok to bandwagon. Basically only DS agreed. Letting people bandwagon is a VERY BAD idea.
Sorry but the feel of that part just feels more lazy than usual.
In actual reality, just because scumchat exists doesn't mean theres no communication in thread. I think that this was just a minor reminder. I also notice that DS was not afraid to attack newbies (as he did to Freshman).
Those opinions are from later on in D1, as people started to freak out about how popular the lynch was getting. At the time the DS post was written the lynch was still popular with the majority.
And I'd like to point out that the Day ended with The Soldier, and Tiruin both voting for Zrk2. Regardless of whatever ruminating happened, what they actually decided to do about it is more important.
I'd say there's no reason it can't be both, but basically agree.
Or both, sure. Point is, it's more a function of laziness than newness. Noobs generally want to improve their play, with all that entails.
I would like to point out that if it is IG, the scumteam at the start of D2 was alamoes/IG, and since this isn't a BM they wouldn't have a "scum IC" and thus would have no guidance. If they were rudderless like that you might expect to see a visible drop in the quality of their posts and their convictions or lines of thought, given the missing direction. While you can kinda see this will alamoes (check out his late D1 and all of his D2 posts for reference), I don't really see that sort of shift in IG.
You're forgetting Leafsnail. Now, I admit I'm unfamiliar with Toaster's setup, but I assume there's just one scumteam considering it wasn't mentioned anywhere in the OP and specific factions aren't mentioned either. That means, in your situation, it was alamoes/IG/Leafsnail, which I would definitely not label as "rudderless" - at least for D1.
Hapah, I don't like how you've voted IG so close to day end based on policy. This isn't D1, and pushing a lurker lynch when it is very likely lylo, or at the very least lylo-1, is very unwise. What's your case on IG, now that we are in D3? Have you made any thorough attempts on the others here? What makes you pick IG over the others, despite having already implied your town read of him and made a point toward that case?
This goes for you too, Okami. This isn't over yet. What are you doing?
Post by: lordnincompoop on April 18, 2013, 01:51:33 pm
I'm coming with a post on my reads in a few hours, since I'm spending this evening doing Mafia.
Post by: Hapah on April 18, 2013, 02:30:08 pm
Extend.
Quote from: LNCP
You're forgetting Leafsnail. Now, I admit I'm unfamiliar with Toaster's setup, but I assume there's just one scumteam considering it wasn't mentioned anywhere in the OP and specific factions aren't mentioned either. That means, in your situation, it was alamoes/IG/Leafsnail, which I would definitely not label as "rudderless" - at least for D1.Right, and that's what I'm getting at. If the team is IG/ala/Leaf, they certainly weren't rudderless D1. But Leaf got killed in the first night. I don't think dead men can talk in the scumchat, which would mean that the mastermind/driver of the scumteam (Leaf) was removed; and as a result you might be able to see a drop in post quality. You can kinda see it in ala, but I don't see the same in IG. It's an observation.
Quote from: LNCP
Hapah, I don't like how you've voted IG so close to day end based on policy. This isn't D1, and pushing a lurker lynch when it is very likely lylo, or at the very least lylo-1, is very unwise. What's your case on IG, now that we are in D3? Have you made any thorough attempts on the others here? What makes you pick IG over the others, despite having already implied your town read of him and made a point toward that case?He hasn't been in the damn thread since Saturday, alright? He either needs to do something (hell, anything) or request a replacement. Enough is enough.
Post by: Toaster on April 18, 2013, 02:56:24 pm
Hapah:
Okami No Rei:
lordnincompoop: zombie urist
Imperial Guardsman: Hapah
zombie urist: Okami No Rei
Not Voting: lordnincompoop, Imperial Guardsman
Day has been extended. Day 3 will last until Friday, 4/19 at 11 PM EST.
Post by: lordnincompoop on April 18, 2013, 04:51:00 pm
My reads:
When reading zombie urist's D1 and D2 play, my gut told me there was something going on. To that end, I investigated further, but I didn't find much that stood out - I read through all of in Paranormal 21, Supernatural 5, and Mein Kampf, where he acted as town, town and scum respectively, in order to see whether I'd be able to distinguish his play on alignment or at the very least apply something from those plays here. What I learned? Not all that much, unfortunately. I can't put a finger on what he does.
I still don't like it, though. If we get this extend I'm going to dig in on this.
I don't think Okami is scum. Again, this is assuming there is only one scumteam. His D1 behaviour, seem from the scum perspective, doesn't really line up with their motives. Support Leafsnail into a successful D1 mislynch with his "gambit" fuss, only to bus him during the night? It doesn't make sense. Of course, the claim on D2 is still incredibly off-putting, and this doesn't cover two options: One, that he fakeclaimed the scroll of death - which I don't think is likely, as someone else would likely have called him. Second is that this really is a bus, which would be the strangest bus to date, considering that neither one was in any significant trouble at that time and the only one seriously pursuing Leafsnail's case - as in, enough to vote or at least FOS - was Tiruin. Again, not enough to nightkill the most experienced member on your team, so it doesn't add up.
That leaves Hapah. You and zombie urist are the only ones that have a good chance of being scum.
It's almost midnight now. I've things to do tomorrow, so I'll end it here for tonight.
Post by: lordnincompoop on April 18, 2013, 04:54:22 pm
Right, and that's what I'm getting at. If the team is IG/ala/Leaf, they certainly weren't rudderless D1. But Leaf got killed in the first night. I don't think dead men can talk in the scumchat, which would mean that the mastermind/driver of the scumteam (Leaf) was removed; and as a result you might be able to see a drop in post quality. You can kinda see it in ala, but I don't see the same in IG. It's an observation.
Fair enough.
He hasn't been in the damn thread since Saturday, alright? He either needs to do something (hell, anything) or request a replacement. Enough is enough.
That's it? That's all you have on D3? I get that IG is a lurker, and if he gets the prod I requested, he'll be here soon, but what the fuck were you doing before I replaced in?
What happened to building cases? Don't you have anything on anyone else?
Post by: Toaster on April 18, 2013, 08:29:43 pm
Extend.
Again?
Oh yeah, forgot to mention I prodded Imperial Guardsman and Okami.
Post by: Hapah on April 18, 2013, 08:41:25 pm
Quote from: LNCP
I don't think Okami is scum. Again, this is assuming there is only one scumteam. His D1 behaviour, seem from the scum perspective, doesn't really line up with their motives. Support Leafsnail into a successful D1 mislynch with his "gambit" fuss, only to bus him during the night? It doesn't make sense. Of course, the claim on D2 is still incredibly off-putting, and this doesn't cover two options: One, that he fakeclaimed the scroll of death - which I don't think is likely, as someone else would likely have called him. Second is that this really is a bus, which would be the strangest bus to date, considering that neither one was in any significant trouble at that time and the only one seriously pursuing Leafsnail's case - as in, enough to vote or at least FOS - was Tiruin. Again, not enough to nightkill the most experienced member on your team, so it doesn't add up.It's possible that he got the scroll, was redirected or somesuch, and claimed the kill to salvage a bad situation. But yeah, I get what you are driving at.
That's it? That's all you have on D3? I get that IG is a lurker, and if he gets the prod I requested, he'll be here soon, but what the fuck were you doing before I replaced in?It's hard to do much of anything when 3 of 7 were requesting replacements, yeah? And work was kicking my ass besides.
What happened to building cases? Don't you have anything on anyone else?
I'm voting IG now because if he keeps doing what he's doing, he's a serious liability. If he does damn near anything I'll think about moving my vote, but I'm done giving him a free pass. IG isn't posting, Okami isn't posting, I think you (LNCP) are probably Town based on mechanics, which leaves only ZU to question. I think he's a little scummy (he's got that negative slant on nearly every statement kinda like NQT had), but I want to see the others (especially IG) post. Does this answer your question?
Post by: Okami No Rei on April 18, 2013, 10:47:25 pm
Since IG's post quality didn't decrease are you saying that he's not scum?
I'm saying I would have expected it to if he was.I'd say that the fact it hasn't gone down means nothing, since there's really no further down to go.
lordnincompoop
This goes for you too, Okami. This isn't over yet. What are you doing?Hapah pretty much nailed it, here:
It's hard to do much of anything when 3 of 7 were requesting replacements, yeah? And work was kicking my ass besides.
Hapah, would you elaborate on this:
I think you (LNCP) are probably Town based on mechanics,
I'm voting IG now because if he keeps doing what he's doing, he's a serious liability.I agree. Even if he flips Town, as long as we have only the one Town kill tonight, we'll still be at LyLo.
Post by: Hapah on April 18, 2013, 11:15:10 pm
Post by: zombie urist on April 18, 2013, 11:19:06 pm
Okami - town
IG - likely town
Hapah - kinda town
LNCP - pretty scummy
I agree with what LNCP said about Okami and the kill on LS. I really think IG is just a terrible player, especially given what happened in the beginner's mafia. But if he's scum, I wouldn't be surprised. Hapah got into a pretty big argument with LS D1, which is why I really don't think he's scum either. So that basically leaves DS/LNCP. LNCP provided a reasonable defense of what I said earlier, but based on DS's actions, especially his bandwagon on NQT make him scummiest in my view.
PPE'd Hapah
Okami: Sure. I don't know why Deathsword (who LNCP replaced in for) would have used a Scroll of Phasing N1 if he was scum. The value of a N1 block pales in comparison to the power of a LYLO-breaker.This... is actually a good point. But his reasons, IIRC for using it on Ford were pretty weak.
Gonna think this through later.
Post by: lordnincompoop on April 18, 2013, 11:49:28 pm
Extend.
Again?
Yeah, again. I need to build cases on zombie urist and Hapah, which isn't a trivial feat, and I want to have a second look at everyone else and the confirmed scum in case I missed something. Imperial Guardsman needs to post, and I want Okami and Hapah to actually do something today. Deadline by Friday isn't going to cut it. Sorry, boss.
Hapah:
It's possible that he got the scroll, was redirected or somesuch, and claimed the kill to salvage a bad situation. But yeah, I get what you are driving at.
That works, actually. It doesn't depend on strange behaviour on Okami's part. What I'm wondering, though, is how likely a scroll/rod/staff of redirect would end up used like this.
I'm voting IG now because if he keeps doing what he's doing, he's a serious liability. If he does damn near anything I'll think about moving my vote, but I'm done giving him a free pass. IG isn't posting, Okami isn't posting, I think you (LNCP) are probably Town based on mechanics, which leaves only ZU to question. I think he's a little scummy (he's got that negative slant on nearly every statement kinda like NQT had), but I want to see the others (especially IG) post. Does this answer your question?
You had all that work in D1 and D2 to go off. D3 is going terribly, but that doesn't mean you're prevented from making cases and reads. You had two game-days to investigate players - what happened to all that evidence? Or did you just tunnel NQT all the way through the game?
Post by: Hapah on April 19, 2013, 12:16:57 am
Quote from: LNCP
That works, actually. It doesn't depend on strange behaviour on Okami's part. What I'm wondering, though, is how likely a scroll/rod/staff of redirect would end up used like this.Yeah. The big snag for me is that nobody else said anything about it: if I redirected A to B and B ended up dead I'd definitely put that on the table. Also, on reflection, Okami's claim doesn't seem that odd: it's not like he's a vig where he has to worry about his life, the scroll is a one-and-done job. He hit paydirt with his trump card and claimed it, and had no real reason not to.
Quote from: LNCP
You had all that work in D1 and D2 to go off. D3 is going terribly, but that doesn't mean you're prevented from making cases and reads. You had two game-days to investigate players - what happened to all that evidence? Or did you just tunnel NQT all the way through the game?You're right, of course. It's just demoralizing to see the game grind to a halt, you know? I'll see if I can fit in rereads for the living this weekend.
And it's true, I did tunnel NQT pretty hard, but that's what it took to get the job done. I tried to get Zrk off the hook D1, but I guess I wasn't persuasive enough.
Post by: lordnincompoop on April 19, 2013, 02:42:03 am
Since I know you're rereading, Hapah, so I'm willing to wait for a detailed response, but I'd at least like a summary of what your impression is of the players here.
zombie urist, what makes you think Okami, Hapah and IG here are town?
Post by: Toaster on April 19, 2013, 07:57:37 am
Hapah: lordnincompoop
Okami No Rei:
lordnincompoop: zombie urist
Imperial Guardsman: Hapah
zombie urist: Okami No Rei
Not Voting: Imperial Guardsman
Day has been extended. Day 3 will last until Monday, 4/22 at 11 PM EST.
Moderator:Extend.
Again?
Yeah, again.
Just wanted to make sure, since it came right after the extension went through.
Post by: lordnincompoop on April 21, 2013, 02:34:50 pm
I've been going two people's posting histories like I've said. Screw meta - other people can do that.
There are several things about zombie urist's play that stick out to me.
Zrk2: I believe you're wrong. If Alamoes was scum, he'd have teammates coaching him. He doesn't look coached. Freshman is (was) far more likely to be scum because of his relative silence. There are things missing from his posts that I would expect to see, and I feel like I'm only hearing part of the conversation.Why are you defending him? Captain Ford
Personally, I find a lot of noobtells and towntells in his posts. I've not seen a single thing that makes him scummy in my book.
(I've fixed this quote to show what he actually meant.) This one sticks out because he's voting Captain Ford rather impulsively, with his rationale being that Ford is defending alamoes by stating that he reads as town.
Why this is interesting? Firstly, because he never had any suspicions on alamoes to begin with, and didn't question him in the game at all.
Now, buddying accusations only make sense in two situations: One, you're convinced that the defendee is scum, and thus the defense puts the defender in suspicion - in this case, the second suspect is weaker, but the vote is placed anyway to pressure or to question. Two, you're convinced the defendee is town, and you're already suspicious of the defender, and the defense looks like the defender is trying to garner support.
There isn't really a good case for the first explanation, because he hasn't said anything to alamoes before this post, and despite ranking him as second to Ford in scumminess, not only did he not explain that, he didn't pursue this supposed suspicion in the game at all. Why doesn't he actually give us reasons? Because they'd be bad and not doing so allows him to change things and warp this as he sees fit.
If it is the second case, what he gives us is an extremely weak argument. Firstly, he's not already suspicious of Captain Ford, so he doesn't know at all whether it is in earnest or a ploy for approval. Second, it's pretty clear he doesn't generally think this behaviour is a scumtell in itself, because he didn't react when anyone else expressed a town read on people. I, for example, just now rather emphatically stated that I thought IG is town. Notice that this is essentially the same situation: I'm stating my town read of IG and expressing that to people who vote him, as Ford did to Zrk2. Zombie urist, in turn, says two things: That he has no over suspicions of IG, and that he wouldn't be surprised if he was scum anyway. So why doesn't he say anything about my treatment of IG, and why doesn't any of these explanations fit?
Because he doesn't really suspect Ford at all, and it's just a bullshit reason to jump on someone and get his vote in.
Let's examine the case he later presents:
ZU, for what reason do you vote Captain Ford?1. Passiveness
2. Defensiveness of alamoes
3. His reason for voting Fresh was most BS (almoes is a close second)
4. He didn't respond to the scroll of mail I sent him. >:(
I'm going to go through this in reverse order.
A scroll of mail allows one to become Lovers with another person. For town, this really only has utility value if you have a strong town read on someone and the other feels the same about you. The scroll would then allow you to cooperate (to a certain extent). For scum, everyone outside your team is confirmed to be either town or a third party, both of which you'll need to eliminate, so really they're all lumped together. In this case, the scroll has immense utility value, because it allows you to do two things: Gain the trust of the other party to see if you can get him into your voting block, and if you're good enough, you can also rolefish and alignment fish.
Ask yourself: why would you want to use the Scroll of Mail in early RVS as town, as ZU did? You wouldn't, because in RVS you really don't have any idea if the receiver is town or scum and you're just wasting a Scroll, and using it to have a private channel to determine the other's alignment is of limited value at best: A sufficiently wary townie would avoid accepting a chat from a stranger precisely because the townie can get influenced, and as the chat likely won't be posted in much, it's a lot more productive to question a subject in-thread as it ups your chances of getting a reply and lets other townies see it.
ZU's use of the scroll doesn't align with town motives or strategies. The explanation that remains, then, is that he as scum tried to curry Ford's favour or try to get a grip on his role without alerting other wary townies - then, when he failed, he used that point as an argument to attack him without really expounding on why it makes Ford scum.
His own rationale is that he sent a gibberish message and didn't expect a reply in return. Then, when he used that as a point, Ford would reply if he was town. Note that no part of this converstion between ZU and Ford is shown, so really the entire thing would just have devolved into a my-word-against-your-word argument anyway, and ZU would be able to keep his senseless point regardless of what Ford did.
So what's the logic behind that explanation - that a townie would be sufficiently concerned about his appearance to pull a point out of the air when threatened? I don't think so.
Point 3 refers to this:
Spoiler: Quote from Ford (click to show/hide)
Note that he says "you're asking me to get that specific item" and "worry me". The question asked what item scum would have. The change in subject implies that he thinks of himself as scum. And if he were a townie, why would he be worried if he himself had the item? It's not like there is any imminent danger of having it stolen when it occurs.
Freshman slipped here. He's scum.
Point 2 I've already discussed - it doesn't make sense.
Point 1 cites passiveness. Why doesn't this apply? Because "being passive" essentially means either doing nothing or very little, or being unaggressive and not pursuing cases. Now, I agree that this is true for Ford's first two posts, which may not have existed at all for all the good it did, but look at his posting history up until then - he's been questioning freshman, he declared alamoes town and disagreed on the zrk2 lynch, and pressured IG. For having only survived D1 he's sure got a lot of posts - more than anyone else's D1 save for Vector and more even than some people's entire posting history. Passive? Hardly.
So that's his "case". He stated D2 to The Soldier (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=124225.msg4148540#msg4148540) that he was pursuing a real suspicion, so it's not just a vote with asspulled reasons for pressure - it's a vote with asspulled reasons because he can't come up with any good ones. Then, when nobody paid any attention to it he decides to switch to NQT. His primary reason? First explained as being because of NQT's post-lynch hypothetical question (without rationale). Note that he then very subtly changes his primary reason to being "he didn't vote for me". Here are two quotes to show that:
ZU seems to me the most scummiest: his curtness is a mask for evasiveness, and his predecessor Fresh was dropping scum tells like they were going out of fashion. But since we've been granted an extension, we've got a little more time to form our reads.Then why aren't you voting for me? NQT for the second part.
ZU, Zrk2, if we lynch you and you flip town who do you think we should be suspicious of next?
You didn't say that at all. You said "ZU seems to me the most scummiest" Since your English is pretty good, you should know about superlatives and stuff. In no way do I see the implication that you were comparing me and Zrk. Also, good job tunneling IG. To me, not wanting to vote anyone else seems like you're afraid of being part of a mislynch.
This is taken out of context, of course, but the point is that he stops doing anything with the point he voted NQT on, and doesn't even explain why it's scummy. Vector did a good job of blowing a hole in the argument he switched to - keeping a vote on someone who refuses to answer your questions is pretty legitimate.
His other suspicions are also pretty weak. Let's look at Vector: He started that by arguing with her once she voted for him. His primary argument seems to be that meta is bad, but little else - it's actually pretty funny how his later argument reg. NQT is based on meta, not citing any games, while simultaneously discounting Vector's own meta argument. Even so, there aren't really any damning scumtells that he offers up. The Soldier? Presumably because his understanding of the NQT argument is mistaken. Doesn't seem strong.
He then votes for me (well, really Deathsword) for reasons that don't hold up as I've mentioned in an earlier post.
So, in conclusion:
- He jumped on Ford without really having seen any tells. Later, he gives some arguments that really don't make sense if you think about it.
- His behaviour and logic is makes much more sense for a scum aligned player.
- His case on NQT is similarly weak. It's primarily based on one weak point, and his meta argument is not only weak, his own point against Vector discredits himself.
- Freshman slipped scum. This is very clear.
- He pulls a lurker lynch on LYLO before voting me/Death for similarly weak reasons.
- Note how he doesn't really "go for" someone by trying to question them. He votes with his short reasons, as soon as he sees a tell, and leaves it at that - he defends them if need be, but he doesn't try to incriminate his suspect further or fish for alignment. It's telling of someone who just wants a lynch instead of a scum lynch.
Post by: lordnincompoop on April 21, 2013, 02:38:29 pm
Post by: zombie urist on April 21, 2013, 04:39:32 pm
I was going to make something similar for Hapah today, but this took far too long. I'm pretty confident about the above, though.Me too. Confident you're wrong. :P
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
zombie urist, what makes you think Okami, Hapah and IG here are town?I'm pretty sure I answered this when I game my reads.
Okami claimed to kill LS, which would make no sense at all if he was scum.
Hapah had a big argument over Zrk2's scumminess, so I don't think its him either.
IG I'm least sure about, but he just seems bad at the game.
I actually meant to vote alamoes to see how both alamoes and Ford would react.(I've fixed this quote to show what he actually meant.) This one sticks out because he's voting Captain Ford rather impulsively, with his rationale being that Ford is defending alamoes by stating that he reads as town....Why are you defending him? Captain Ford
Why this is interesting? Firstly, because he never had any suspicions on alamoes to begin with, and didn't question him in the game at all.First part is wrong.
Now, buddying accusations only make sense in two situations: One, you're convinced that the defendee is scum, and thus the defense puts the defender in suspicion - in this case, the second suspect is weaker, but the vote is placed anyway to pressure or to question. Two, you're convinced the defendee is town, and you're already suspicious of the defender, and the defense looks like the defender is trying to garner support.
There isn't really a good case for the first explanation, because he hasn't said anything to alamoes before this post, and despite ranking him as second to Ford in scumminess, not only did he not explain that, he didn't pursue this supposed suspicion in the game at all. Why doesn't he actually give us reasons? Because they'd be bad and not doing so allows him to change things and warp this as he sees fit.
If it is the second case, what he gives us is an extremely weak argument. Firstly, he's not already suspicious of Captain Ford, so he doesn't know at all whether it is in earnest or a ploy for approval. Second, it's pretty clear he doesn't generally think this behaviour is a scumtell in itself, because he didn't react when anyone else expressed a town read on people. I, for example, just now rather emphatically stated that I thought IG is town. Notice that this is essentially the same situation: I'm stating my town read of IG and expressing that to people who vote him, as Ford did to Zrk2. Zombie urist, in turn, says two things: That he has no over suspicions of IG, and that he wouldn't be surprised if he was scum anyway. So why doesn't he say anything about my treatment of IG, and why doesn't any of these explanations fit?
Because he doesn't really suspect Ford at all, and it's just a bullshit reason to jump on someone and get his vote in.
Also at that point I just replaced in. I felt that alamoes was pretty scummy, so buddying made sense to me. That's why DS saying LS is town is also suspicious.I don't know who it would be, but it probably is not the soldier, because he started his vote on the noob, me. I doubt the mafia would do something so isolated like that.What do you mean by isolated?
Let's examine the case he later presents:A scroll of mail does not make you become lovers. You get to send a short message, then the recipient gets to send one back if he chooses. I used it because I was close to being lynched and figured I might as well make something of it....A scroll of mail allows one to become Lovers with another person. For town, this really only has utility value if you have a strong town read on someone and the other feels the same about you. The scroll would then allow you to cooperate (to a certain extent). For scum, everyone outside your team is confirmed to be either town or a third party, both of which you'll need to eliminate, so really they're all lumped together. In this case, the scroll has immense utility value, because it allows you to do two things: Gain the trust of the other party to see if you can get him into your voting block, and if you're good enough, you can also rolefish and alignment fish.
Ask yourself: why would you want to use the Scroll of Mail in early RVS as town, as ZU did? You wouldn't, because in RVS you really don't have any idea if the receiver is town or scum and you're just wasting a Scroll, and using it to have a private channel to determine the other's alignment is of limited value at best: A sufficiently wary townie would avoid accepting a chat from a stranger precisely because the townie can get influenced, and as the chat likely won't be posted in much, it's a lot more productive to question a subject in-thread as it ups your chances of getting a reply and lets other townies see it.
ZU's use of the scroll doesn't align with town motives or strategies. The explanation that remains, then, is that he as scum tried to curry Ford's favour or try to get a grip on his role without alerting other wary townies - then, when he failed, he used that point as an argument to attack him without really expounding on why it makes Ford scum.
His own rationale is that he sent a gibberish message and didn't expect a reply in return. Then, when he used that as a point, Ford would reply if he was town. Note that no part of this converstion between ZU and Ford is shown, so really the entire thing would just have devolved into a my-word-against-your-word argument anyway, and ZU would be able to keep his senseless point regardless of what Ford did.
So what's the logic behind that explanation - that a townie would be sufficiently concerned about his appearance to pull a point out of the air when threatened? I don't think so.
Point 3 refers to this:I think fresh here meant he's (Ford) is asking, then Ford will get the item and worry Fresh. But the point I was making is that I don't really see contempt for the question/RVS and I don't think showing contempt for RVS is scummy, because everyone hates RVS.This is claimed to be a BS point. Frankly, I dont think so at all. Besides avoiding a rather standard question being rather suspicious in and of itself, I find the confused sentence structure Freshman displays to be pretty revealing.Spoiler: Quote from Ford (click to show/hide)
Note that he says "you're asking me to get that specific item" and "worry me". The question asked what item scum would have. The change in subject implies that he thinks of himself as scum. And if he were a townie, why would he be worried if he himself had the item? It's not like there is any imminent danger of having it stolen when it occurs.
Freshman slipped here. He's scum.
Point 2 I've already discussed - it doesn't make sense.I thought alamoes was scummy, so it does make sense.
Point 1 cites passiveness. Why doesn't this apply? Because "being passive" essentially means either doing nothing or very little, or being unaggressive and not pursuing cases. Now, I agree that this is true for Ford's first two posts, which may not have existed at all for all the good it did, but look at his posting history up until then - he's been questioning freshman, he declared alamoes town and disagreed on the zrk2 lynch, and pressured IG. For having only survived D1 he's sure got a lot of posts - more than anyone else's D1 save for Vector and more even than some people's entire posting history. Passive? Hardly.I thought he was passive. Not much I can really say here.
So that's his "case". He stated D2 to The Soldier (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=124225.msg4148540#msg4148540) that he was pursuing a real suspicion, so it's not just a vote with asspulled reasons for pressure - it's a vote with asspulled reasons because he can't come up with any good ones.I switched to NQT because he was scummier.
Then, when nobody paid any attention to it he decides to switch to NQT. His primary reason? First explained as being because of NQT's post-lynch hypothetical question (without rationale). Note that he then very subtly changes his primary reason to being "he didn't vote for me". Here are two quotes to show that:I'm confused here. I switched vote to NQT BEFORE the lynch so I don't know what you mean about the post-lynch hypothetical question.ZU seems to me the most scummiest: his curtness is a mask for evasiveness, and his predecessor Fresh was dropping scum tells like they were going out of fashion. But since we've been granted an extension, we've got a little more time to form our reads.Then why aren't you voting for me? NQT for the second part.
ZU, Zrk2, if we lynch you and you flip town who do you think we should be suspicious of next?You didn't say that at all. You said "ZU seems to me the most scummiest" Since your English is pretty good, you should know about superlatives and stuff. In no way do I see the implication that you were comparing me and Zrk. Also, good job tunneling IG. To me, not wanting to vote anyone else seems like you're afraid of being part of a mislynch.
This is taken out of context, of course, but the point is that he stops doing anything with the point he voted NQT on, and doesn't even explain why it's scummy. Vector did a good job of blowing a hole in the argument he switched to - keeping a vote on someone who refuses to answer your questions is pretty legitimate.I'm pretty sure I explained my point. He claimed that I was scummier than Zrk2. Zrk2 and I were about equally close to getting lynched. He could have very easily voted for me instead of whoever he was putting his vote one, but he didn't. Keeping a vote on someone who refuses to answers questions usually is legitimate, but at that time it wasn't.
His other suspicions are also pretty weak. Let's look at Vector: He started that by arguing with her once she voted for him. His primary argument seems to be that meta is bad, but little else - it's actually pretty funny how his later argument reg. NQT is based on meta, not citing any games, while simultaneously discounting Vector's own meta argument. Even so, there aren't really any damning scumtells that he offers up. The Soldier? Presumably because his understanding of the NQT argument is mistaken. Doesn't seem strong.Yeah I didn't really have a solid case on either Vector or The Soldier and I didn't find them too suspicious. I still do think that Vector's meta argument is bad. You yourself read through my past games and didn't find that this game meta disagreed with past metas. I was basing my meta argument on NQT on ALL his past games, so I didn't bother listing them.
So, in conclusion:1. Disagree
- He jumped on Ford without really having seen any tells. Later, he gives some arguments that really don't make sense if you think about it.
- His behaviour and logic is makes much more sense for a scum aligned player.
- His case on NQT is similarly weak. It's primarily based on one weak point, and his meta argument is not only weak, his own point against Vector discredits himself.
- Freshman slipped scum. This is very clear.
- He pulls a lurker lynch on LYLO before voting me/Death for similarly weak reasons.
- Note how he doesn't really "go for" someone by trying to question them. He votes with his short reasons, as soon as he sees a tell, and leaves it at that - he defends them if need be, but he doesn't try to incriminate his suspect further or fish for alignment. It's telling of someone who just wants a lynch instead of a scum lynch.
2. Meh. This is very vague and weak.
3. Completely untrue, especially since NQT flipped SK. Vector's entire case on me basically hinged on a meta argument. Meta was only part of my case.
4. Disagree
5. How do you know its LYLO? I was voting IG because DS replaced out and I gave my reasons on why I don't think its Hapah/Okami.
6. Completely untrue again.
He then votes for me (well, really Deathsword) for reasons that don't hold up as I've mentioned in an earlier post.I think they do. For everyone's benefit, they are:
1. Supporting LS.
2. Bandwagoning (on both Zrk2 and NQT)
3. Repeating other's argument. (related to both Zrk2 and NQT)
Post by: Hapah on April 21, 2013, 06:23:55 pm
Quote from: LNCP
Fuck, where is everyone? I feel like I'm the only guy playing here.I don't typically play on weekends. I poke my head in to see if there have been any interesting developments, but that's about it. I've got a reread planned for tonight, though.
Post by: Hapah on April 22, 2013, 03:33:36 am
Quote from: ZU
Then maybe you should try to address it? You can't handwave this stuff away.Quote from: LNCPHis behaviour and logic is makes much more sense for a scum aligned player.Meh. This is very vague and weak.
Quote from: ZU
I think the fact that he flipped SK is irrelevant. For those of you following along at home, I believe Vector's case is here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=124225.msg4140108#msg4140108) and ZU's is here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=124225.msg4151915#msg4151915), I guess? S'not much of a case.Quote from: LNCPHis case on NQT is similarly weak. It's primarily based on one weak point, and his meta argument is not only weak, his own point against Vector discredits himself.Completely untrue, especially since NQT flipped SK. Vector's entire case on me basically hinged on a meta argument. Meta was only part of my case.
Quote from: LNCP
Freshman slipped scum. This is very clear.I actually give Fresh the benefit of the doubt. Look at the rest of his posts: he was obviously out of his depth.
Quote from: ZU
ZU's push on NQT has a little bite to it, though.Quote from: LNCPNote how he doesn't really "go for" someone by trying to question them. He votes with his short reasons, as soon as he sees a tell, and leaves it at that - he defends them if need be, but he doesn't try to incriminate his suspect further or fish for alignment. It's telling of someone who just wants a lynch instead of a scum lynch.Completely untrue again.
Quote from: ZU
I actually meant to vote alamoes to see how both alamoes and Ford would react.So you moved your vote to Ford before alamoes had responded?
Quote from: ZU
A scroll of mail does not make you become lovers. You get to send a short message, then the recipient gets to send one back if he chooses. I used it because I was close to being lynched and figured I might as well make something of it.First part is semantics; you two are obviously talking about the same role. However, you had two entire days and a lot of the pressure got taken off as soon as you replaced in. Three things: Why Ford of all people, and how would you react if someone convo'd you D1, and why send a totally meaningless message?
Quote from: ZU
You're splitting hairs: As best I can tell you asked him a single question (which reads like a request for clarification, honestly), and then never pressed him on it. That's not exactly leaning on him. You got anything else?Quote from: LNCP-Buddying stuff-First part is wrong.
1. Supporting someone who crafted an argument convincing enough to form a lynch majority isn't really scummy, is it? (Interesting note, everyone, and sorry to bury the lead: The votecount at the end of D1 was 5 Zrk to 4 ZU, with one confirmed scum on each. That seems like an awfully gutsy move if ZU was scum, yeah? If any one of the 4 Zrk voters moved to ZU, it would've been a scum lynch)He then votes for me (well, really Deathsword) for reasons that don't hold up as I've mentioned in an earlier post.I think they do. For everyone's benefit, they are:
1. Supporting LS.
2. Bandwagoning (on both Zrk2 and NQT)
3. Repeating other's argument. (related to both Zrk2 and NQT)
2. I don't think bandwagoning is necessarily scummy, as long as you can provide justification.
3. Examples, please.
Post by: lordnincompoop on April 22, 2013, 05:37:13 am
Hapah: You made a post on my case but I don't know if you're addressing me or ZU. Please clarify?
zombie urist:
I was going to make something similar for Hapah today, but this took far too long. I'm pretty confident about the above, though.Me too. Confident you're wrong. :P
Heh.
zombie urist, what makes you think Okami, Hapah and IG here are town?I'm pretty sure I answered this when I game my reads.
Okami claimed to kill LS, which would make no sense at all if he was scum.
Hapah had a big argument over Zrk2's scumminess, so I don't think its him either.
IG I'm least sure about, but he just seems bad at the game.
Alright, fair enough. I must've glossed over that argument you mentioned for Hapah, so that needs a look at.
(I've fixed this quote to show what he actually meant.) This one sticks out because he's voting Captain Ford rather impulsively, with his rationale being that Ford is defending alamoes by stating that he reads as town.I actually meant to vote alamoes to see how both alamoes and Ford would react.
This is bullshit and a lie because you unvoted him and admitted it was a mistake, thus offloading the pressure, before alamoes could even do anything.
This smells like you're trying to distance yourself from your scumbuddy. I don't like it one bit.Also at that point I just replaced in. I felt that alamoes was pretty scummy, so buddying made sense to me. That's why DS saying LS is town is also suspicious.I don't know who it would be, but it probably is not the soldier, because he started his vote on the noob, me. I doubt the mafia would do something so isolated like that.What do you mean by isolated?
Explain how you thought alamoes was scummy. And if you thought alamoes was scummy, why didn't you pursue him at all - without even so much as an FOS?
You seem to have jumped on Ford first because of the buddying. Now, why would that make him a target before alamoes when his scum connection is much less tenuous and primarily existed only through alamoes? If you mention the Mail thing again, you're going to have to explain in much more detail, because I don't buy that point at all.
A scroll of mail does not make you become lovers. You get to send a short message, then the recipient gets to send one back if he chooses. I used it because I was close to being lynched and figured I might as well make something of it.
Fine, my mistake about the Lovers bit.
That still doesn't change the fact that using it as a scum argument is nonsensical, and the message content even less so. I'd also like to mention that Zrk2 was just as close to the noose as you were - you weren't really all that close that you'd need to prepare for death by flinging your items every which way.
I thought he was passive. Not much I can really say here.
Well, you could elaborate.
So that's his "case". He stated D2 to The Soldier (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=124225.msg4148540#msg4148540) that he was pursuing a real suspicion, so it's not just a vote with asspulled reasons for pressure - it's a vote with asspulled reasons because he can't come up with any good ones.I switched to NQT because he was scummier.
Why?
I'm confused here. I switched vote to NQT BEFORE the lynch so I don't know what you mean about the post-lynch hypothetical question.
I mean the "if you guys got lynched, what should we do next?" question.
aThis is taken out of context, of course, but the point is that he stops doing anything with the point he voted NQT on, and doesn't even explain why it's scummy. Vector did a good job of blowing a hole in the argument he switched to - keeping a vote on someone who refuses to answer your questions is pretty legitimate.I'm pretty sure I explained my point. He claimed that I was scummier than Zrk2. Zrk2 and I were about equally close to getting lynched. He could have very easily voted for me instead of whoever he was putting his vote one, but he didn't. Keeping a vote on someone who refuses to answers questions usually is legitimate, but at that time it wasn't.
Why wasn't it? You need to prove these kinds of things.
Imp. Imperial Guardsman. IG., I'm still waiting for a response (http://"http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?action=post;quote=4137201;topic=124225.240;last_msg=4139851").
Here's the vote. The question unanswered is pages back. IG hadn't done much at all up until then except bandwagon like an idiot. Why is this scummy?
His other suspicions are also pretty weak. Let's look at Vector: He started that by arguing with her once she voted for him. His primary argument seems to be that meta is bad, but little else - it's actually pretty funny how his later argument reg. NQT is based on meta, not citing any games, while simultaneously discounting Vector's own meta argument. Even so, there aren't really any damning scumtells that he offers up. The Soldier? Presumably because his understanding of the NQT argument is mistaken. Doesn't seem strong.Yeah I didn't really have a solid case on either Vector or The Soldier and I didn't find them too suspicious. I still do think that Vector's meta argument is bad. You yourself read through my past games and didn't find that this game meta disagreed with past metas. I was basing my meta argument on NQT on ALL his past games, so I didn't bother listing them.
That's because I'm terrible at using meta and always was. But point taken. I'll address this later.
So, in conclusion:1. Disagree
- He jumped on Ford without really having seen any tells. Later, he gives some arguments that really don't make sense if you think about it.
- His behaviour and logic is makes much more sense for a scum aligned player.
- His case on NQT is similarly weak. It's primarily based on one weak point, and his meta argument is not only weak, his own point against Vector discredits himself.
- Freshman slipped scum. This is very clear.
- He pulls a lurker lynch on LYLO before voting me/Death for similarly weak reasons.
- Note how he doesn't really "go for" someone by trying to question them. He votes with his short reasons, as soon as he sees a tell, and leaves it at that - he defends them if need be, but he doesn't try to incriminate his suspect further or fish for alignment. It's telling of someone who just wants a lynch instead of a scum lynch.
2. Meh. This is very vague and weak.
3. Completely untrue, especially since NQT flipped SK. Vector's entire case on me basically hinged on a meta argument. Meta was only part of my case.
4. Disagree
5. How do you know its LYLO? I was voting IG because DS replaced out and I gave my reasons on why I don't think its Hapah/Okami.
6. Completely untrue again.
Please, explain 2, 3 and 6.
I'm almost certain it's LYLO or at the very least LYLO-1. We have 5 players, and at least 1 is scum. 2 people are refusing to post or move their votes. If that isn't less than hair's breadth away from LYLO, I'll eat my hat.
Post by: lordnincompoop on April 22, 2013, 05:42:18 am
Extend. I'm busy this evening and I need time to get a reply from ZU and to give some counterpoints. Sorry, Hapah, but I'd rather not it end today.
Hapah: You made a post on my case but I don't know if you're addressing me or ZU. Please clarify?
zombie urist:
I was going to make something similar for Hapah today, but this took far too long. I'm pretty confident about the above, though.Me too. Confident you're wrong. :P
Heh.
zombie urist, what makes you think Okami, Hapah and IG here are town?I'm pretty sure I answered this when I game my reads.
Okami claimed to kill LS, which would make no sense at all if he was scum.
Hapah had a big argument over Zrk2's scumminess, so I don't think its him either.
IG I'm least sure about, but he just seems bad at the game.
Alright, fair enough. I must've glossed over that argument you mentioned for Hapah, so that needs a look at.
(I've fixed this quote to show what he actually meant.) This one sticks out because he's voting Captain Ford rather impulsively, with his rationale being that Ford is defending alamoes by stating that he reads as town.I actually meant to vote alamoes to see how both alamoes and Ford would react.
This is bullshit and a lie because you unvoted him and admitted it was a mistake, thus offloading the pressure, before alamoes could even do anything.
This smells like you're trying to distance yourself from your scumbuddy. I don't like it one bit.
Also at that point I just replaced in. I felt that alamoes was pretty scummy, so buddying made sense to me. That's why DS saying LS is town is also suspicious.
Explain how you thought alamoes was scummy. And if you thought alamoes was scummy, why didn't you pursue him at all - without even so much as an FOS?
You seem to have jumped on Ford first because of the buddying. Now, why would that make him a target before alamoes when his scum connection is much less tenuous and primarily existed only through alamoes? If you mention the Mail thing again, you're going to have to explain in much more detail, because I don't buy that point at all.
A scroll of mail does not make you become lovers. You get to send a short message, then the recipient gets to send one back if he chooses. I used it because I was close to being lynched and figured I might as well make something of it.
Fine, my mistake about the Lovers bit.
That still doesn't change the fact that using it as a scum argument is nonsensical, and the message content even less so. I'd also like to mention that Zrk2 was just as close to the noose as you were - you weren't really all that close that you'd need to prepare for death by flinging your items every which way.
[Please refer to above post for the other arguments]
Post by: Toaster on April 22, 2013, 08:07:16 am
Day's extended till tomorrow. Real modpost later
Post by: Hapah on April 22, 2013, 10:10:14 am
A little bit of both, LNCP. Most of it is directed at ZU though. Just look at the last person I quoted in each case.
Post by: Hapah on April 22, 2013, 04:17:37 pm
LNCP, Okami: What do you make of the bolded bit near the bottom of my post?
Post by: Okami No Rei on April 22, 2013, 10:15:42 pm
The votecount at the end of D1 was 5 Zrk to 4 ZU, with one confirmed scum on each. That seems like an awfully gutsy move if ZU was scum, yeah? If any one of the 4 Zrk voters moved to ZU, it would've been a scum lynch)Bussing is a tried and true means of looking Town. I wouldn't be surprised if Leaf told Alamoes to vote zombie urist.
Post by: Okami No Rei on April 22, 2013, 10:34:27 pm
Post by: zombie urist on April 23, 2013, 12:55:04 am
Is a massclaim in order? I don't know, but I do know that Ford blocked Okami. I used a ?oMonsterDetection on Okami, hoping to watch the killer.
Extend
Post by: lordnincompoop on April 23, 2013, 02:24:24 am
lordnincompoop - If, purely on a theoretical basis, I was bluffing about the Scroll of Death, and I in fact had a Wand of Death, would you rather I use the second charge on Hapah or IG/??? tonight? ZU was my target last night, but I was, unfortunately, blocked.
So you do have a Wand of Death, and this is no longer hypothetical. That would, unfortunately, make the wand-possesser (you) the game-changer. Here is the breakdown:
D3: ZU lynched, flips scum.
In this case, we can either win, or move on to N3. This means that there is a second scum or third party, which would have put us as LYLO already today.
D3: ZU lynched, flips town
In this case, there are four people left for N3. There cannot be more than one scum player left here, or at the very extreme one of scum, town and third party each at D4.
In any case, what is left is four town and one scum if we don't win, plus some possible amount of third parties. Scum will likely nightkill either you, or me, or possibly Hapah.
The possible scum players left on N3 would be Okami (you), Hapah and IG. Since you having nightkilled your own scum leader as a bus is pretty unlikely, you're probably town (or, if you really are scum, and you deliberately killed him and made it to D3 just so you could set this situation up as a trusted player, then bravo. You're an amazing scum player). I'm confirmed town.
I still haven't had the chance to comb through Hapah's history, and I need to get on that - but from what I can see in D3, it's as follows: He's voting someone that likely will never reply or do anything, and as it's a vote placed on someone he doesn't find particularly suspicious, it feels like he's just throwing his vote away (scum, at this point, might to this because they think they've bagged the game).
I don't like IG. I don't like his play, I don't like how he's said more than a few lines in ALL of D3 (which has lasted more than two weeks), and hasn't done much better in D1 or D2. I don't like how not even a single clue has managed to rub off on him. I don't like the fact that he is an unknown factor, and that my read is only based on what a person would do. Maybe I'm being too harsh here, but I hope I'm getting the point across.
But if it were up to me, I'd kill someone that I'm reasonably sure could be scum instead of the abrasive guy, even though the latter would probably be infinitely more satisfying.
That means I need to get my reading glasses on and examine Hapah, and you should do the same. If you think you can comb something out of IG, go ahead, but I can't.
Post by: Hapah on April 23, 2013, 09:48:38 am
How are you confirmed town, again?
Post by: Hapah on April 23, 2013, 10:26:10 am
Also it'll be four people left if someone gets lynched, not five. If Okami and the scum shoot different targets then game could be over by tomorrow.
Post by: Toaster on April 23, 2013, 10:31:02 am
Hapah:
Okami No Rei:
lordnincompoop: zombie urist
Imperial Guardsman: Hapah
zombie urist: Okami No Rei, lordnincompoop
Not Voting: Imperial Guardsman
Note: I'm going to put the game on an extended extension until we find a replacement, given how far along the game is at this point.
Post by: Okami No Rei on April 23, 2013, 12:33:50 pm
Hmm... thinking over things, we may actually be at LyLo, especially if Okami is an SK, which I forgot to consider earlier.We killed the SK.
At this point, I'm convinced ZU is scum. Killing him will end the day. However, we should have a contingency plan for the unlikely event that this game goes to N3 after lynching him.
D3: ZU lynched, flips townYou're not quite confirmed Town, but you're definitely strong Town based on the reasons Hapah gave. That leaves Hapah and IG as the possible scum/third-party keeping the game going.
In this case, there are four people left for N3. There cannot be more than one scum player left here, or at the very extreme one of scum, town and third party each at D4.
I'm leaning towards IG. Hapah's given a consistently Town read throughout the game, from my reading.
Post by: lordnincompoop on April 23, 2013, 01:10:59 pm
Note: I'm going to put the game on an extended extension until we find a replacement, given how far along the game is at this point.
Unfortunately, I'm not sure how much good a replacement for IG will do at this point. It means that we'll have to get new reads in on the replacement, and though that wouldn't have been a problem as late as D2, in late-D3 it means that nobody will really have a proper chance to form opinions.
We killed the SK.
Sure we did, but what makes you think that was the only one?
Post by: ToonyMan on April 23, 2013, 01:59:22 pm
Post by: Toaster on April 23, 2013, 04:10:18 pm
Post by: Hapah on April 23, 2013, 07:42:01 pm
Post by: ToonyMan on April 23, 2013, 07:55:59 pm
Post by: ToonyMan on April 23, 2013, 08:06:33 pm
Post by: ToonyMan on April 23, 2013, 08:15:54 pm
D1 Zrk2 was lynched.
N1 Tiruin and Leafsnail died. (it's safe to assume NQT killed Leafsnail here)
D2 Vector gets daykilled. (who did this?)
D2 NQT was lynched.
N2 Captain Ford dies.
D3 Toaster modkills Alamoes and The Soldier.
Post by: Hapah on April 23, 2013, 09:23:06 pm
Post by: Hapah on April 23, 2013, 09:27:54 pm
Post by: Okami No Rei on April 24, 2013, 12:38:46 am
Wouldn't make sense for there to be more in a 13 player game. I certainly wouldn't put more than four anti-town players in a game that size.We killed the SK.Sure we did, but what makes you think that was the only one?
N1 Tiruin and Leafsnail died. (it's safe to assume NQT killed Leafsnail here)Did you miss this post (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=124225.msg4146668#msg4146668), or are you doubting my claim?
Post by: zombie urist on April 24, 2013, 12:45:40 am
Wouldn't make sense for there to be more in a 13 player game. I certainly wouldn't put more than four anti-town players in a game that size.We killed the SK.Sure we did, but what makes you think that was the only one?
Post by: Okami No Rei on April 24, 2013, 12:50:01 am
Post by: Toaster on April 24, 2013, 07:50:38 am
Hapah:
Okami No Rei:
lordnincompoop: zombie urist
ToonyMan: Hapah
zombie urist: Okami No Rei, lordnincompoop
Not Voting: ToonyMan
Deadline set: Day 3 will end Thursday, 4/25 at 11 PM EST.
Hopefully we won't need any more replacements.
Post by: ToonyMan on April 24, 2013, 11:15:44 am
Okami claimed the NK on Leaf. Nobody ever claimed the Vector daykill; I'd guess it was NQT.Yeah, that makes sense.
Oops I remember now.N1 Tiruin and Leafsnail died. (it's safe to assume NQT killed Leafsnail here)Did you miss this post (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=124225.msg4146668#msg4146668), or are you doubting my claim?
Zombie Urist. I highly doubt Okami or LNCP is mafia.
Post by: zombie urist on April 24, 2013, 04:38:07 pm
I'm town and I still think its LNCP and then possibly Toony.
Post by: Hapah on April 24, 2013, 05:24:04 pm
Looks like it's about settled, then. Sorry ZU, if you really are town.
I'm a little concerned that if ZU is town and Okami misses the game is probably over, though.
Post by: zombie urist on April 25, 2013, 10:19:49 pm
Post by: Toaster on April 26, 2013, 08:16:28 am
Post by: Toaster on April 26, 2013, 09:04:17 am
A rock, expertly tossed by Lordnincompoop, smashes him in the side of the head. It’s followed by more from the others, and he falls.
Hapah checks his body. “Looks like he just transformed himself into a corpse.” Searching him, however, you find no sign of guilt upon him.
The four of you look at each other warily before heading off to bed. Will this ever end?
Zombie Urist has been lynched! He was a Transmuter (Town).
Night 3 has begun! Night 3 will last until Monday, 4/29 at 11 PM EST. Unless I get all your actions in before then. If I can I'll end the night tonight- only four of you so get those actions in!
Sorry again for the delay.
Post by: Toaster on April 28, 2013, 07:35:59 pm
After a quiet, uneventful breakfast, full of watchful stares and glaring eyes, the arguing begins in earnest.
Day 4 has begun! Day 4 will last until Thursday, 5/2 at 11 PM EST.
Post by: Hapah on April 28, 2013, 08:12:27 pm
I guess I'll start: I delayed Toonyman last night.
Toony: What'd you attempt to do?
LNCP: What are you thoughts now that ZU flipped town?
Okami: I guess you didn't try to fire off your murder-stick?
Post by: zombie urist on April 28, 2013, 09:21:32 pm
Post by: ToonyMan on April 29, 2013, 12:56:02 pm
I guess I'll start: I delayed Toonyman last night.I used a Scroll of Knowledge I got D1. I was definitely delayed.
Toony: What'd you attempt to do?
Post by: Okami No Rei on April 29, 2013, 06:21:04 pm
Okami: I guess you didn't try to fire off your murder-stick?Nope, and a good thing I didn't, since someone redirected the action I did take.
Toonyman was delayed, and nobody died? And he comes around with a nigh unverifiable claim. Toony, you're scum.
Post by: ToonyMan on April 29, 2013, 08:45:38 pm
Post by: ToonyMan on April 29, 2013, 08:46:43 pm
Post by: Okami No Rei on April 29, 2013, 09:34:01 pm
Post by: ToonyMan on April 30, 2013, 12:05:22 pm
You're a fool to lynch anybody today. Even if I was scum you would be a complete fool.
Post by: Hapah on April 30, 2013, 09:20:35 pm
You're a fool to lynch anybody today. Even if I was scum you would be a complete fool.That could only possibly hold if we had another delay or block. If someone has one, I'm all ears. Otherwise, couldn't you conceivably kill 2 people the next night?
Post by: lordnincompoop on May 01, 2013, 01:18:09 am
Just so you know: I also have my second year finals coming up in three weeks. This will decide whether I get to enter the uni of my choice or not, depending on how well I do, so it's very important. Add on that three tests I have in the interim, which means I'm utilising as much time as possible to study. It'll inevitably come out of this, so I thought I should mention this before anything happens. Also not to make anyone expect WoTs from me again.
LNCP: What are you thoughts now that ZU flipped town?
That was my bet, and now I don't have one. I'm slightly suspicious of Okami because of his dancing about with his maybe-Wand. Alternatively, that might've been his way of soaking up Night actions, or something. I'm also suspicious of Toony at this point (but not enough to make a vote), because of the factors of his predecessor's unknown alignment, and his (Toony's) unreadable meta. The delay I don't factor in because I don't fully see the logic in it yet, and I've yet to make a judgement on it.
Post by: ToonyMan on May 01, 2013, 11:49:49 am
Yeah it's true, conceivably. It's true for anybody that you delayed Hapah. Unfortunately, even if I had a delay or block it wouldn't make a difference in this case to "prove" my claim. Okami could target me with his kill tonight, which I would prefer since at the very least I know we will almost certainly lose if I get lynched, no question.You're a fool to lynch anybody today. Even if I was scum you would be a complete fool.That could only possibly hold if we had another delay or block. If someone has one, I'm all ears. Otherwise, couldn't you conceivably kill 2 people the next night?
Just so you know: I also have my second year finals coming up in three weeks. This will decide whether I get to enter the uni of my choice or not, depending on how well I do, so it's very important. Add on that three tests I have in the interim, which means I'm utilising as much time as possible to study. It'll inevitably come out of this, so I thought I should mention this before anything happens. Also not to make anyone expect WoTs from me again.Yeah I'm fucking swamped with school too. Finals are next week why did I sub this game
Post by: Toaster on May 01, 2013, 02:06:27 pm
Hapah:
Okami No Rei:
lordnincompoop:
ToonyMan: Hapah, Okami No Rei
No Lynch: ToonyMan
Not Voting: lordnincompoop
Day 4 will last until Thursday, 5/2 at 11 PM EST.
Post by: lordnincompoop on May 01, 2013, 02:50:14 pm
Sorry, but it's not going to happen. I found out about an hour ago I have a report due tomorrow. Extend.
Yeah I'm fucking swamped with school too. Finals are next week why did I sub this game
I know exactly how you feel. Good luck out there in the trenches, bro.
Post by: ToonyMan on May 01, 2013, 03:04:13 pm
Nah I'm kidding. I waste time outside of class instead when I have three papers due next week uwwwooooooooooaaa
My classes are over the 9th of May, but I don't think we'll need to extend just because I have other things to do (I joined knowing this). I think we can manage...although if there's still a lynch on me tomorrow I think I'm going to extend.
Post by: Hapah on May 01, 2013, 10:43:47 pm
LNCP: Did you randomize Okami?
Post by: Okami No Rei on May 01, 2013, 10:51:17 pm
Except that I didn't kill anybody last night, because I'm not mafia!That remains to be seen.
What makes sense to me is, Hapah uses a delay when there's likely going to be no other kills, targeting a prime suspect, nobody doubts this knowledge and lynch them (because obviously if we no-lynch they'll get two kills!), and then he just kills somebody at night for the win. I'm not sure how he would avoid being killed himself, but there's tons of usable items in this game-type it seems.If that's the case, why are you voting NoLynch and not Hapah?
You're a fool to lynch anybody today. Even if I was scum you would be a complete fool.Occam's Razor says you're scum, and you get two kills tonight. NoLynching can only benefit you.
Post by: lordnincompoop on May 02, 2013, 06:01:44 am
LNCP: Did you randomize Okami?
No, I used a Scroll of Attraction on Toony and Okami.
After the ZU town flip, Toony was my strongest lead as you started to lean town. As I couldn't be sure of Okami's alignment despite my assessment, I couldn't risk him being anti-town and choosing to use a kill, whether he has it or not, on a townie. I thus made sure that if he used the kill, he would kill someone that I would think suspicious.
Of course, I didn't factor in a delay there, but that didn't matter. If Okami chose to use his kill, my suspect would flip. If Toony used a kill as you think he has but Okami didn't, then a non-suspect dies and may disadvantage town depending on the flip, but in the process, I'd find a confirmed killer - resulting in a net advantage. If both used their kills, then a double knockout and a town-antitown or an antitown-antitown death would occur, which is still a good situation for town to be in. If neither uses their kills, either because they didn't want to, because they don't have them, or because, as in this case, a delay happens, then no harm no foul.
Randomisations are dumb.
Post by: Okami No Rei on May 02, 2013, 06:43:02 am
Post by: lordnincompoop on May 02, 2013, 07:47:59 am
I used a Wand of Blessing last night. Toony's weapons received an upgrade. I was aiming for Hapah.
I don't think that matters if it did what you say. If he is mafia, the factional kill isn't an item and can't be enchanted. I think. There's no info on Enchant Weapon.
Moderator, please confirm?
And why did you want to use it on Hapah?
Post by: Toaster on May 02, 2013, 08:43:07 am
Hapah:
Okami No Rei:
lordnincompoop:
ToonyMan: Hapah, Okami No Rei
No Lynch: ToonyMan
Not Voting: lordnincompoop
Day has been extended. Day 4 will last until Friday, 5/3 at 11 PM EST.
I used a Wand of Blessing last night. Toony's weapons received an upgrade. I was aiming for Hapah.
I don't think that matters if it did what you say. If he is mafia, the factional kill isn't an item and can't be enchanted. I think. There's no info on Enchant Weapon.
Moderator, please confirm?
Enchant Weapon and Enchant Armor are Blessing-class effects. Despite the name, they target the player and not any specific item. For example, if a player has Enchant Weapon, then any kill the player does- Mafiakill, Scroll/Wand of Death, Grayswandir, any source- has a 20% chance to ignore protection or any other form of kill immunity.
Mafia factions have a factional Mafiakill that can be used by one player each night as a standard action. It is not an item, and cannot be stolen or removed.
Does that clear things up?
Post by: ToonyMan on May 02, 2013, 11:32:35 am
Because it's what I think is the most likely scenario, but it doesn't mean I'm going to lynch somebody in mylo because I'm so sure of myself (he wouldn't have that dangerous possible conceivable two night-kills either which is good insurance). I don't really think you're scum (I just can't see it with Leafsnail being killed by you N1), but LNCP could be still, for instance.What makes sense to me is, Hapah uses a delay when there's likely going to be no other kills, targeting a prime suspect, nobody doubts this knowledge and lynch them (because obviously if we no-lynch they'll get two kills!), and then he just kills somebody at night for the win. I'm not sure how he would avoid being killed himself, but there's tons of usable items in this game-type it seems.If that's the case, why are you voting NoLynch and not Hapah?
I used a Wand of Blessing last night. Toony's weapons received an upgrade. I was aiming for Hapah.I can confirm this. How did this happen?
Hapah delay Toony
Toony gets delayed
Okami blesses Hapah, but it goes onto Toony
LNCP attracts Okami and Toony
Post by: ToonyMan on May 02, 2013, 11:37:50 am
Post by: lordnincompoop on May 02, 2013, 04:18:06 pm
I'll humour your theory, Toony. At this point, so close to the prize, I can't conceive of any reason why a scum member would want to avoid killing a Townie. It really doesn't matter who the target is or what else happens, unless the kill is redirected to the mafioso or harms him in some other way. It's always going to be a powerful advantage for scum.
The only way I can think of that doesn't involve a stupid mafioso or a delayed mafioso is this: That the mafioso had both the Scroll of Delaying and the kill free to use, and decided that instead of killing someone and risking having to survive in LYLO, to use the Delay on a Townie instead of the kill, and then frame that townie as being scum using this and the lack of an NK. The mafioso could then lead an easy mislynch in the eventual MYLO, dismissing the no-lynch by using the doublekill argument, and be safely out of harm's reach, thus sealing the game. That's very similar to what's happening here, except we don't know if Hapah is pursuing in earnest or executing such a plan. For a clever player, this isn't out of the realm of possibility at all, esp. considering the Delay scroll is a common item (I think).
That makes Toony and Hapah the likely scum players, I suppose. Right now, it's a toss-up.
Tangentially, I'd be pretty impressed in Hapah if he wins as scum in this game. That would be interesting.
Post by: Okami No Rei on May 02, 2013, 08:21:40 pm
And why did you want to use it on Hapah?Because Toony is first on my scumlist, and you are number two. Hapah's played a consistently Town game thus far, and I wouldn't put it past DeathSword to not realize that the Scroll of Fading, or whatever it was he used on Captain Ford, is a potential LYLO breaker.
Both Hapah and Toony's stories are plausible, so it comes down to this:
We lynch Toony and he flips Town, and Hapah kills one person tonight for the win.
We lynch Hapah and he flips Town, and Toony gets two kills tonight for the win.
We NoLynch, and either Toony gets two kills for the win, or Hapah gets a kill and we go to LYLO.
This is, of course, discounting possible item interactions.
I don't think Hapah is scum, and I definitely don't want to hand the game to Toony tonight.
Post by: ToonyMan on May 02, 2013, 08:59:45 pm
The only way I can think of that doesn't involve a stupid mafioso or a delayed mafioso is this: That the mafioso had both the Scroll of Delaying and the kill free to use, and decided that instead of killing someone and risking having to survive in LYLO, to use the Delay on a Townie instead of the kill, and then frame that townie as being scum using this and the lack of an NK. The mafioso could then lead an easy mislynch in the eventual MYLO, dismissing the no-lynch by using the doublekill argument, and be safely out of harm's reach, thus sealing the game. That's very similar to what's happening here, except we don't know if Hapah is pursuing in earnest or executing such a plan. For a clever player, this isn't out of the realm of possibility at all, esp. considering the Delay scroll is a common item (I think).This is exactly what I'm thinking.
Can someone help summarize what this means to me?And why did you want to use it on Hapah?I wouldn't put it past DeathSword to not realize that the Scroll of Fading, or whatever it was he used on Captain Ford, is a potential LYLO breaker.
Both Hapah and Toony's stories are plausible, so it comes down to this:That's a pretty bad outcome and also makes me think you were totally lying about having a wand of death (since you could just say "Yeah I'll zap Hapah tonight")
We lynch Toony and he flips Town, and Hapah kills one person tonight for the win.
We lynch Hapah and he flips Town, and Toony gets two kills tonight for the win.This is also a bad outcome, but you're assuming one of the two has to be scum again.
We NoLynch, and either Toony gets two kills for the win, or Hapah gets a kill and we go to LYLO.This is really our best option (and no, not because it doesn't involve me dying). Nobody is coming forth with an item claim to block me, so I really think our best option is to gamble with the four of us that at least one of us will be able to "stop" me tonight to clear my claim. We will likely be at LYLO tomorrow but it's certainly better than an almost guaranteed defeat.
Anybody?I used a Wand of Blessing last night. Toony's weapons received an upgrade. I was aiming for Hapah.I can confirm this. How did this happen?
Hapah delay Toony
Toony gets delayed
Okami blesses Hapah, but it goes onto Toony
LNCP attracts Okami and Toony
Post by: Okami No Rei on May 02, 2013, 10:07:35 pm
Oh, you probably missed that from earlier. We believe LNCP/DeathSword is town because he used a potential MYLO/LYLO breaking item very early in the game. I was pointing out that DeathSword may not have thought through his actions all that well, and, for that reason, LNCP is the second person on my list of scumpicks, after yourself. Hapah comes in last, so he's the one I chose for the Blessing.Can someone help summarize what this means to me?And why did you want to use it on Hapah?I wouldn't put it past DeathSword to not realize that the Scroll of Fading, or whatever it was he used on Captain Ford, is a potential LYLO breaker.
I have not lied. It would be stupid to use a killing item after announcing that I have a killing item. I wanted to make myself a magnet for night actions (turns out I can't use a Staff of Monster Detection on myself).Both Hapah and Toony's stories are plausible, so it comes down to this:That's a pretty bad outcome and also makes me think you were totally lying about having a wand of death (since you could just say "Yeah I'll zap Hapah tonight")
We lynch Toony and he flips Town, and Hapah kills one person tonight for the win.
LNCP using Attract on us last night doesn't make sense to me as a scum action. You or Hapah are scum, and you are the scummier of the two, having claimed a completely unverifiable (today) action last night.We lynch Hapah and he flips Town, and Toony gets two kills tonight for the win.This is also a bad outcome, but you're assuming one of the two has to be scum again.
Killing you, is, in my opinion, the safer gamble.We NoLynch, and either Toony gets two kills for the win, or Hapah gets a kill and we go to LYLO.This is really our best option (and no, not because it doesn't involve me dying). Nobody is coming forth with an item claim to block me, so I really think our best option is to gamble with the four of us that at least one of us will be able to "stop" me tonight to clear my claim. We will likely be at LYLO tomorrow but it's certainly better than an almost guaranteed defeat.
Anybody?Can you clarify the question?
Post by: Okami No Rei on May 03, 2013, 07:08:49 am
Post by: Toaster on May 03, 2013, 07:44:19 am
Hapah:
Okami No Rei:
lordnincompoop:
ToonyMan: Hapah
No Lynch: ToonyMan
Not Voting: lordnincompoop, Okami No Rei
Day 4 will last until Friday, 5/3 at 11 PM EST, ~14 1/4 hours from now.
Post by: ToonyMan on May 03, 2013, 03:06:49 pm
Not really. You lynch Hapah or me (if you want to put this at 50% odds then fine), town has about a 50% chance of victory.Killing you, is, in my opinion, the safer gamble.We NoLynch, and either Toony gets two kills for the win, or Hapah gets a kill and we go to LYLO.This is really our best option (and no, not because it doesn't involve me dying). Nobody is coming forth with an item claim to block me, so I really think our best option is to gamble with the four of us that at least one of us will be able to "stop" me tonight to clear my claim. We will likely be at LYLO tomorrow but it's certainly better than an almost guaranteed defeat.
If we no-lynch our chances rise because if I'm town (which should hopefully become more clear when my claim clears tomorrow) it would likely become a typical LYLO game and it will very likely be Hapah-culprit, possibly somebody else but I'm not so sure unless we get some major event. If I'm scum then I can still be stopped. So the chance for town victory would have to be higher than 50% if you're gonna go on this gamble principle.
Why were you redirected? I'm not sure if attract would cause that or something else.Anybody?Can you clarify the question?
Post by: ToonyMan on May 03, 2013, 03:11:41 pm
You know what doesn't make any sense either, why didn't you try to kill me last night if you are so sure I'm scum? Let me try to guess, it's because Hapah hadn't delayed me yet and you weren't actually "sure". Your reasoning is ridiculous, you could even kill me tonight (although last night feels more damning to me).I have not lied. It would be stupid to use a killing item after announcing that I have a killing item. I wanted to make myself a magnet for night actions (turns out I can't use a Staff of Monster Detection on myself).Both Hapah and Toony's stories are plausible, so it comes down to this:That's a pretty bad outcome and also makes me think you were totally lying about having a wand of death (since you could just say "Yeah I'll zap Hapah tonight")
We lynch Toony and he flips Town, and Hapah kills one person tonight for the win.
Post by: Okami No Rei on May 03, 2013, 05:58:34 pm
Post by: Okami No Rei on May 03, 2013, 06:54:48 pm
Post by: Hapah on May 03, 2013, 08:32:54 pm
So we're no-lynching now? That's new. Can't override it, but I guess it is what it is.
I wish I'd had the time to really invest in this day, and I apologize to everybody. No more games for Hapah for a bit.
Post by: Toaster on May 03, 2013, 10:59:57 pm
Post by: Okami No Rei on May 03, 2013, 11:03:24 pm
Post by: Toaster on May 04, 2013, 11:40:52 am
Vote Count:
Hapah:
Okami No Rei:
lordnincompoop:
ToonyMan: Hapah
No Lynch: ToonyMan, Okami No Rei
Not Voting: lordnincompoop
After a long day of discussion and pointed fingers, you all decide that the best course of action is to wait. The four of you head back to your tents, each warily watching the other. Is this the best way to root out the danger?
Night 4 has begun! Night 4 will last until Monday, 5/6 at 11 PM EST. I will end it after at least 24 hours have passed if all night actions are in.
Post by: Toaster on May 05, 2013, 07:36:21 pm
Day 5 has begun! Day 5 will last until Thursday, 5/9 at 11 PM EST.
Post by: Okami No Rei on May 05, 2013, 11:51:20 pm
Post by: lordnincompoop on May 06, 2013, 01:40:57 am
I've confirmed it for myself, at least, that it's Toony that's got the kill. He will have three kills D5, but again, that won't matter since he could have won with two kills too.
This time, I know it's not a ScumHapah-ploy to win and I know scum must've at least tried to action because they wouldn't not action in these circumstances (as far as I can think).
Post by: ToonyMan on May 06, 2013, 12:49:56 pm
I found a Scroll of Slowing D4 and decided to test Hapah's "I slowed Toony, no kill" hyphothesis. I was also redirected to Toony by someone - presumably Hapah, since you seem to have used some follow item - but that didn't matter, since I wanted to use it on Toony anyway.How does that work? If it's another delay my "supposed" kill from the night before last should have went through. I used a Scroll of Misdirection last night which redirects anybody who targets me too so that doesn't make any sense. Plus, if you wanted to target me in the first place why did you have to get "redirected" by someone...oh I get it. My redirect redirected onto myself...
I've confirmed it for myself, at least, that it's Toony that's got the kill. He will have three kills D5, but again, that won't matter since he could have won with two kills too.Come on, this is just a repeat of yesterday. Except I don't know if it's you or Hapah, I'm gonna lean on you for now until Hapah gives some insight. I don't think I can warrant a vote though (because again, I don't know which it is and it's mylo).
This time, I know it's not a ScumHapah-ploy to win and I know scum must've at least tried to action because they wouldn't not action in these circumstances (as far as I can think).Unless they were busy setting somebody else up.
Post by: ToonyMan on May 06, 2013, 12:55:54 pm
Post by: Hapah on May 06, 2013, 06:58:37 pm
Toaster: Can actions be delayed more than a single night? Also, can a randomization (such as Scroll of Misdirection) send someone back to their original target?
It's worth noting that redirects process before blocks (and I'm assuming a delay counts as a block). (PPE: Yeah Toony's got it)
Post by: Okami No Rei on May 06, 2013, 07:25:40 pm
Post by: Hapah on May 06, 2013, 07:41:46 pm
Post by: Toaster on May 06, 2013, 07:49:41 pm
Toaster: Can actions be delayed more than a single night?
No.
Also, can a randomization (such as Scroll of Misdirection) send someone back to their original target?
Yes.
Post by: Hapah on May 06, 2013, 08:08:55 pm
Okami: Why follow LNCP instead of Toony?
Toony, how many was it?
LNCP: If you were 1 scum with 4 players left, as we are now, would you use the NK? I can kinda see both sides, but I want to pick your brain a little.
Post by: Toaster on May 06, 2013, 08:10:37 pm
Q: What effect type is a delay?
A: A delay is a Redirection class effect. It happens before all other effects.
Q: What happens when an action is delayed?
A: When an action is delayed, the action is "frozen" in place until the following night, at which point it resolves.
Q: If the action checks the game state (Example: Oracle Scroll) does it check the game state for the night it is delayed or the night it occurs?
A: The night it occurs. In the above example, if an artifact came into play between the time the Oracle Scroll was used and when it resolved, the new artifact would show up in the result.
Q: What if the target is now invalid?
A: The action fails.
Q: Can the action be affected on the night it resolves?
A: The action itself cannot be targeted the night it resolves, but it will consider other effects normally. If the delayed person is blocked, delayed, or redirected on the night the action resolved, such effects do not affect the delayed action (but would affect any action that user takes that night normally). On the other hand, if, for example, a kill is delayed from N1 to N2 and the target is protected N2, the protection saves the target.
Does that clear things up?
Post by: Hapah on May 06, 2013, 08:17:09 pm
Post by: Toaster on May 06, 2013, 08:24:01 pm
Just one more question, then: who wins in a fight between a Scroll of Misdirection and a Scroll of Delay? Coin flip?
The Scroll of Delay wins. From the Game Information spreadsheet (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AvFsNFGsoA1KdGZsTVZfY3VmX0w3OVhoRk5PaEl5NVE&authkey=CI-PoZUM&hl=en&authkey=CI-PoZUM#gid=0):
Quote
Blocking a redirector that isn't redirecting you succeeds before that redirector redirects. Redirecting to a specific target takes precedence over randomization. In the case of multiple specific targets, random.org decides. Generally, anything that targets the action is considered a redirect.
It says "Blocking a redirector...", but it really should say "Blocking or redirecting a redirector..." That means if you Delay someone who Misdirected, the Misdirect takes place the following night.
Post by: ToonyMan on May 06, 2013, 08:43:21 pm
Post by: Toaster on May 06, 2013, 08:46:48 pm
There is no Scroll of Delay- just a Scroll of Slowing.
Post by: ToonyMan on May 06, 2013, 08:48:57 pm
Post by: Hapah on May 06, 2013, 08:55:17 pm
Post by: Okami No Rei on May 06, 2013, 09:00:10 pm
I don't believe LNCP ever claimed to have targeted me.I misunderstood her night action claim. I see what she meant now on re-parsing it.
Okami: Why follow LNCP instead of Toony?Because she's second on my scum-list, and it pays to not take predictable actions.
Hapah - I assume you have a reason for not claiming. Please either claim, or explain why you choose not to.
Post by: Tiruin on May 06, 2013, 09:07:05 pm
LNCP and Toony are both male.Okami: Why follow LNCP instead of Toony?Because she's second on my scum-list, and it pays to not take predictable actions.
...
All remaining players are male.
*Tiruin returns to deadchat, where party is to be had.
Post by: Hapah on May 06, 2013, 09:08:25 pm
Hapah - I assume you have a reason for not claiming. Please either claim, or explain why you choose not to.I have a reason, and you'll get it soon enough.
The thing that concerns me at the moment, though, is that I didn't randomize LNCP (or anyone, for that matter). And Toaster said that the Scroll of Slowing wins out over a Scroll of Misdirection, but LNCP claims he was randomized or redirected.
Post by: lordnincompoop on May 07, 2013, 02:51:26 am
I Slowed Toony. Okami can confirm that I took an action, at least. That means he couldn't take an action last night. I was also redirected to Toony.
Toony claims a Misdirection that backfired. This is a lie, because I Slowed him, which comes out on top of his own action.
Hapah claims no action yet, but he is the only candidate for the Redirect/Misdirect.
Okami, do you have a case on me/Deathsword? Why do you think my action is a votable reason?
How does that work? If it's another delay my "supposed" kill from the night before last should have went through. I used a Scroll of Misdirection last night which redirects anybody who targets me too so that doesn't make any sense. Plus, if you wanted to target me in the first place why did you have to get "redirected" by someone...oh I get it. My redirect redirected onto myself...
I don't really know all that much about these mechanics, tbh. I was under the impression it would just delay/slow, period.
This is why I don't really like BYORs, KOTM and Roguelikes. You get bogged up in technicals, and in web's KOTM I think everyone just ended up making breaking strategies every round.
Oh, and you're lying. I also don't like how you're going with this "oh I get it" crap; it didn't work when SK-Dariush tried it, and you're not doing it any better.
Come on, this is just a repeat of yesterday. Except I don't know if it's you or Hapah, I'm gonna lean on you for now until Hapah gives some insight. I don't think I can warrant a vote though (because again, I don't know which it is and it's mylo).
I was pretty confident this slow would work. I'm going to have to look at Toaster's FAQ soon.
Unless they were busy setting somebody else up.
I knew someone would say that, so I mentioned my counterpoint in your quoted post; I didn't think, however, that you'd read it, then go ahead and say this anyway.
Using the kill last night would have guaranteed the win for scum. There would be no reason to think someone had an item to prevent that. There is not reason not to use the kill and extend this yet another day.
Were finals kicking your ass or something LNCP? You didn't vote yesterday either.
I had a very important test yesterday, yes. I was confident D3 was LYLO (which it was, until alamoes got modkilled) and didn't expect it to drag on like this. I also didn't keep track of the end date to my detriment.
I'd normally replace out of a game in this situation, but I'm the one replacing in.
LNCP: If you were 1 scum with 4 players left, as we are now, would you use the NK? I can kinda see both sides, but I want to pick your brain a little.
Hapah: I would. That close to a win, I don't see a reason why I'd want to risk keeping Town alive instead of pushing to LYLO.
LNCP lying about originally targeting you?
I misunderstood her night action claim.
Dude, practice your reading comprehension.
Post by: Okami No Rei on May 07, 2013, 10:43:23 am
Okami, do you have a case on me/Deathsword? Why do you think my action is a votable reason?Because Hapah might have used a protect on Toony. If you tried to kill Toony last night, rather than slow him, then Toony's Misdirect would have redirected you to Toony, and Hapah still has an action unaccounted for.
Hapah: I would. That close to a win, I don't see a reason why I'd want to risk keeping Town alive instead of pushing to LYLO.WIFOM. You haven't killed yet, implying you aren't scum. I don't buy it.
You don't see a reason? The biggest one is that the random distribution of powers each night means there's no way scum can be reasonably confident of pulling off a kill undetected. Not with this many players left. So the best option is to lie low, put on your best Town face, and burn all those useless items you've accumulated over the course of the game, trusting to the Random Number God to supply you with, say, a day-kill like the one that got Vector, or some other combination of items, that can assure the win. All the while Town gets more and more paranoid due to the constant MYLO, and eventually solves your problem for you by Lynching/NKing one of their own. It's risky, but not as risky as using the Mafiakill.
You're smart. I don't believe you never thought it through that far.
Post by: Okami No Rei on May 07, 2013, 10:45:29 am
Post by: Okami No Rei on May 07, 2013, 10:48:35 am
Post by: ToonyMan on May 07, 2013, 12:53:06 pm
Toony - Did you receive any indication that your Scroll of Misdirection actually fired, or that you were delayed?My Scroll of Misdirection definitely worked (otherwise why the heck would LNCP claim it before I even posted, and Hapah claims he didn't do it). Looking over, I don't think I was actually delayed (I sort of skimmed my PM before reading LNCP's first post) and I don't see anything that indicates a delay, otherwise the Slowing > Misdirection would make zero sense anyway. But this also makes zero sense because why would LNCP claim something I could disprove so easily? Hapah really needs to post.
Toony - You were all set to NoLynch with four left yesterday. Why not today?I'll vote LNCP if there's concrete proof. I'd really like Hapah to make his claim first, especially since it would probably create multiple indications. Otherwise I'm going to vote NoLynch again like I explained yesterday.
Although I'm fairly confident LNCP is our mafia right now. What he fails to realize is that my "kill" from N3 should have happened N4, it didn't, because I'm not mafia (he even SAYS here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=124225.msg4220352#msg4220352) that mafia would have no reason not to kill N3 and AGAIN here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=124225.msg4230656#msg4230656) for N4). And that's what I find most damning right now.
But still, Hapah, post.
Post by: lordnincompoop on May 07, 2013, 03:09:26 pm
Because Hapah might have used a protect on Toony. If you tried to kill Toony last night, rather than slow him, then Toony's Misdirect would have redirected you to Toony, and Hapah still has an action unaccounted for.
So... What? I might've used a kill, and since Toony's alive, it's scummy because Hapah might've also prevented that kill?
I'm just disappointed.
Hapah: I would. That close to a win, I don't see a reason why I'd want to risk keeping Town alive instead of pushing to LYLO.WIFOM. You haven't killed yet, implying you aren't scum. I don't buy it.
You pull out one more by-the-book "scumtell" and I'll slap you upside the head. It has pissed me off for a very long time how new players would just clumsily pull cards without knowing what they mean; you don't get to copy-paste a term from one of those guides, put it in bold, and call that a point. It doesn't work that way outside a BM.
You don't see a reason? The biggest one is that the random distribution of powers each night means there's no way scum can be reasonably confident of pulling off a kill undetected. Not with this many players left. So the best option is to lie low, put on your best Town face, and burn all those useless items you've accumulated over the course of the game, trusting to the Random Number God to supply you with, say, a day-kill like the one that got Vector, or some other combination of items, that can assure the win. All the while Town gets more and more paranoid due to the constant MYLO, and eventually solves your problem for you by Lynching/NKing one of their own. It's risky, but not as risky as using the Mafiakill.
You're smart. I don't believe you never thought it through that far.
What makes you think you're the night-game authority? I'll repeat myself: I'd go for it anyway, because a kill is just about the most powerful asset in a scum player's tool-bag, and it's a shame not to use it (unless there are some clear reasons not to, instead of hypotheticals). I appreciate your read on the situation, and it might even be the better analysis here, but Hapah asked what I thought. That's what I thought.
I've never played an RG up until now, much less read any of the games in detail. I've played in exactly one BYOR, where I got NKed N1, if I'm not mistaken. I played one round of KOTM, where I almost stopped participating because the entire game had devolved into players trying to find a breaking strategy with the roleclaims instead of talking to each other. The reason is that I detest games with masses of actions and power roles like these, with lots of catches and what-ifs and specific situations to account for; I've never liked spending energy doing that, and I've never been particularly good at it. I'm flattered that you think I'm a clever bird, but your expectations are one thing.
Although I'm fairly confident LNCP is our mafia right now. What he fails to realize is that my "kill" from N3 should have happened N4, it didn't, because I'm not mafia (he even SAYS here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=124225.msg4220352#msg4220352) that mafia would have no reason not to kill N3 and AGAIN here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=124225.msg4230656#msg4230656) for N4). And that's what I find most damning right now.
I've said before that I don't really know what kinds of exceptions are in place for a Slow, and there wasn't really anything to refer to in that respect before Toaster posted all that (which I haven't gotten to). I won't know until tomorrow evening, either, because I literally have all of 10 minutes to write this post.
Toony, I don't like how you've been riding on other people's suspicions up until now. You replace in on D3 and vote ZU only after I write that WoT, and now after a fairly suspicionless D4 (IIRC; I couldn't pay that close attention) and early D5 you state it as me after Okami publishes the beginnings of a case. I know finals are kicking your ass too, but can't you think for yourself?
Post by: ToonyMan on May 07, 2013, 03:27:35 pm
Toony, I don't like how you've been riding on other people's suspicions up until now. You replace in on D3 and vote ZU only after I write that WoT, and now after a fairly suspicionless D4 (IIRC; I couldn't pay that close attention) and early D5 you state it as me after Okami publishes the beginnings of a case. I know finals are kicking your ass too, but can't you think for yourself?Well, I was mainly pointing at Hapah yesterday since he was making the same case you're making to me today. I highly doubt Okami is mafia, it makes zero sense no matter how I think about it. What I really would have liked is to roll a scroll of inspect or something yesterday, but going on mainly typical scum-hunting it's definitely either LNCP or Hapah. I have flip-flopped, but I would prefer to make the right choice in mylo if we're going to lynch. The fact our claims don't match up would be another damning point honestly.
Post by: ToonyMan on May 07, 2013, 03:32:54 pm
Post by: Hapah on May 07, 2013, 09:03:45 pm
Post by: ToonyMan on May 07, 2013, 11:12:40 pm
I'd be more than happy to post, Toony, but you haven't answered my question. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=124225.msg4229897#msg4229897)I know you're being vague here, but I don't really know what I should be answering unless you're a bit more specific.
Post by: Okami No Rei on May 08, 2013, 12:29:59 am
Toony, how many was it?
Toony - I think he means "How many actions targeted you last night?" You did claim to use a Scroll of Knowledge N3, so that should have triggered last night. It tells you all of the actions you were targeted with. Hapah may or may not have targeted you, LNCP did, so it's either one or two. Your knowing the correct answer verifies your claim from yesterday.
Post by: Okami No Rei on May 08, 2013, 12:30:41 am
Post by: ToonyMan on May 08, 2013, 12:24:10 pm
Oh, it's one.Toony, how many was it?Toony - I think he means "How many actions targeted you last night?" You did claim to use a Scroll of Knowledge N3, so that should have triggered last night. It tells you all of the actions you were targeted with. Hapah may or may not have targeted you, LNCP did, so it's either one or two. Your knowing the correct answer verifies your claim from yesterday.
In fact, it's kind of suspicious that you didn't pipe up with that claim in the first place. Why not?Because I didn't think it would matter with my Misdirection claim on top of it (remember, I never mentioned my Enchanted Weapon yesterday until you talked about, mainly because we still aren't in that mass-claim stage and there's no reason to let the mafia have all the info right now). I asked Toaster earlier about what would happen if the two are overlapped and he said only the ones that actually ended up targeting me would be counted in such a case.
Post by: lordnincompoop on May 08, 2013, 03:40:00 pm
So I read what Toaster said about the delay. If you had actioned a kill on N3, it should have shown up N4 - that is, last night. It didn't, which means that mafia didn't action a kill or there's a lying roleblocker.
I delayed you last night. That didn't redelay the N3 kill, but your self-redirect claim is bullshit because I won that draw. I can't stress this enough. That means that I should be misdirected if you really did do what you said (doubtful, since the N4 PM should have specified the delay), and that's testable. I still got a redirect last night, and nobody claimed that, but it can't be Toony and it's not Okami unless he is one lucky SOB and just guessed that follow action. Whatever else you did should show up N5, whether it is a kill or something else.
This is MYLO. Although my first thought was that we could No Lynch again if we had no really strong leads, that wouldn't work in a case where Toony decided to kill but got delayed, he kills twice tomorrow and it's game over.
Post by: lordnincompoop on May 08, 2013, 03:41:30 pm
Post by: Hapah on May 08, 2013, 04:29:10 pm
You don't think the ability to confirm what ability hit you would be useful to the rest of us? There should be absolutely zero guesswork about if you were delayed or not, the SoK would have told you. What action hit you?In fact, it's kind of suspicious that you didn't pipe up with that claim in the first place. Why not?Because I didn't think it would matter with my Misdirection claim on top of it (remember, I never mentioned my Enchanted Weapon yesterday until you talked about, mainly because we still aren't in that mass-claim stage and there's no reason to let the mafia have all the info right now). I asked Toaster earlier about what would happen if the two are overlapped and he said only the ones that actually ended up targeting me would be counted in such a case.
Spoiler: OOC @ LNCP (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: LNCP (click to show/hide)
Post by: ToonyMan on May 08, 2013, 05:18:35 pm
I have another final in 15 minutes and two more tomorrow though so aaaaah Extend. I was gonna vote tomorrow after digesting all this.
Post by: lordnincompoop on May 08, 2013, 05:50:19 pm
Post by: ToonyMan on May 08, 2013, 07:01:11 pm
Did you get an item from Hapah last night LNCP?
Post by: Toaster on May 08, 2013, 07:31:20 pm
Hapah: lordnincompoop
Okami No Rei:
lordnincompoop: Okami No Rei
ToonyMan:
No Lynch:
Not Voting: Hapah, ToonyMan
Day has been Extended. Day 5 will last until Friday, 5/10 at 11 PM EST.
Mod, please explain the x of Treasure. If used, when will the target receive the item, and what flavour description would come out?
At the end of the night, in their night result PM. Flavor would be an item popping into existence in front of them inexplicably.
From Roguelike 1:
Quote
You find shelter and prepare to rest until morning, when a loud *KA-CHING* surprises you! A Scroll of Enchant Armor appears out of nowhere and falls to your feet. You’re not sure where it came from, but you appreciate it!
Post by: lordnincompoop on May 09, 2013, 12:54:33 am
Post by: Toaster on May 09, 2013, 08:16:18 am
Mod: Does the target receive the item the same night the scroll was used, or the subsequent night, or any other night?
Same night.
Post by: Okami No Rei on May 09, 2013, 09:06:18 am
Post by: lordnincompoop on May 09, 2013, 10:32:22 am
Mod, does the user of a redirect or misdirect effect item know which player the action was redirected to?
Post by: Toaster on May 09, 2013, 01:06:49 pm
I did. N4, so I can confirm Hapah's action.
Mod, does the user of a redirect or misdirect effect item know which player the action was redirected to?
No.
Post by: Okami No Rei on May 09, 2013, 01:33:46 pm
Toony - You used a Scroll of Misdirection last night, which was delayed to tonight. You're lying about the Scroll of Knowledge. LNCP delayed you again tonight, but got redirected back to you. You delayed claiming results from the Scroll of Knowledge because you don't actually have any, and you made a lucky guess that Hapah didn't target you.
Post by: Okami No Rei on May 09, 2013, 01:36:00 pm
s/last night/N3
s/tonight/N4
Post by: lordnincompoop on May 09, 2013, 03:05:30 pm
I need to think this through first.
Okami: What did you use N4 to get your read? How come you have so many more items, and powerful ones at that, compared to the other players here?
Post by: ToonyMan on May 09, 2013, 03:44:04 pm
Well, somebody's lying here. LNCP claims using a delay on Toony, which should have delayed his Misdirect. How about this:I wasn't guessing though, and besides the luck aspect you'd be painting me the same way you accused LNCP earlier (the whole "mafia would or wouldn't kill" WIFOM).
Toony - You used a Scroll of Misdirection last night, which was delayed to tonight. You're lying about the Scroll of Knowledge. LNCP delayed you again tonight, but got redirected back to you. You delayed claiming results from the Scroll of Knowledge because you don't actually have any, and you made a lucky guess that Hapah didn't target you.
From what I can see right now, LNCP is conflicting with me, but unless even if I was mafia (which isn't true) I still see No Lynch as the ideal choice. Hapah agrees here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=124225.msg4234009#msg4234009) too even though he'd rather lynch for more excitement. What I think is yes, LNCP is the most likely choice, like 80% I would say. But Hapah could be that 20% and since everybody can be confirmed to use an action last night it's certainly better to roll items again I think (
Okami: What did you use N4 to get your read? How come you have so many more items, and powerful ones at that, compared to the other players here?Or how about the fact he still hasn't tried to kill me twice in a row!
Post by: Hapah on May 09, 2013, 09:23:57 pm
Okami: What, exactly did you do last night? Be as specific as possible.
Post by: Hapah on May 09, 2013, 11:01:25 pm
Post by: Okami No Rei on May 10, 2013, 01:04:47 am
Post by: ToonyMan on May 10, 2013, 12:04:24 pm
Toony misdirects LNCP onto himself (confirmed), Toony gets delayed.
Hapah treasures LNCP (confirmed)
Okami tracks LNCP (confirmed), sees he targeted Toony.
I've been thinking a few thinks over as well with this spreadsheet (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AvFsNFGsoA1KdGZsTVZfY3VmX0w3OVhoRk5PaEl5NVE&authkey=CI-PoZUM&hl=en&authkey=CI-PoZUM#gid=0).
1. Hapah can't really be lying unless there's some shenanigans going on, but there's no kill either.
2. Okami could have figured LNCP was going to target me which leaves him completely open for anything, like a Scroll of Confusion on LNCP.
3. I was delayed so LNCP is likely telling the truth, but there's no kill either.
4. Other possibilities I can think of are Scroll of Darkness, somebody has Kill Resistance and actually survived a kill, another Scroll of Slowing is screwing everything up even more, etc.
Post by: Hapah on May 10, 2013, 01:53:59 pm
Post by: lordnincompoop on May 10, 2013, 04:08:06 pm
Extend.
Post by: Hapah on May 10, 2013, 06:31:31 pm
Unvote. This game is making less and less sense, and it's getting on my nerves. I'm also getting a very strong sense that my line of thought is flawed.I'm going to try to get at it from another direction. I'm kinda spinning my wheels too.
Quote from: Toony
I still see No Lynch as the ideal choice. Hapah agrees here too even though he'd rather lynch for more excitement.I said it might be. I haven't really thought it through because I don't find the idea appealing.
Quote from: Toony
LNCP delays Toony (confirmed)The problem with this is that Toaster said in no uncertain terms (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=124225.msg4229948#msg4229948) that the misdirect would be delayed until the following night. Some possible implications are below, but it kinda got away from me a bit.
Toony misdirects LNCP onto himself (confirmed), Toony gets delayed.
Hapah treasures LNCP (confirmed)
Okami tracks LNCP (confirmed), sees he targeted Toony.
Well, we've got everyone's latest claims on the table. Since the scum isn't trying to kill (afaik, we could be getting lucky with protects or enchant armor or something), there's not much to gain from picking these apart. However, it's obvious that someone is lying about something, right? There's no way to reconcile all the existing claims. So I'm going to try to figure out what it means if each person is lying. It's just analysis, but it helps me to talk through things sometimes.
Spoiler: Stuff (click to show/hide)
Thoughts? I'll actually be playing over the weekend, for once.
Post by: Toaster on May 10, 2013, 09:48:41 pm
Hapah:
Okami No Rei:
lordnincompoop:
ToonyMan: Okami No Rei
No Lynch: ToonyMan
Not Voting: Hapah, lordnincompoop
Day has been Extended. Day 5 will last until Monday, 5/13 at 11 PM EST.
Post by: ToonyMan on May 10, 2013, 10:38:11 pm
Thoughts? I'll actually be playing over the weekend, for once.LNCP lying about being misdirected is pretty good, especially since the redirection here didn't actually change anything. We'll be able to confirm my Misdirection Scroll tomorrow too (in this game that never ends).
Post by: Hapah on May 11, 2013, 12:31:49 am
-snip- We'll be able to confirm my Misdirection Scroll tomorrow too (in this game that never ends).Not quite. Unless we've another delay, all we'll be able to confirm is that you've got one now, yeah? Or if you had a confirm-able action you could use this night.
Post by: Hapah on May 12, 2013, 01:56:16 pm
Post by: ToonyMan on May 12, 2013, 06:29:57 pm
Welp.It is the weekend. Although I think everything was said Friday really. Maybe LNCP can get a post in tomorrow before day end?
Post by: lordnincompoop on May 13, 2013, 05:39:30 am
Welp.It is the weekend. Although I think everything was said Friday really. Maybe LNCP can get a post in tomorrow before day end?
That's what I was planning. I'm reading now over my lunch break, and I'll see if I can make a post tonight. I need to get two essays done by tomorrow, though. :<
Post by: Toaster on May 13, 2013, 01:55:30 pm
Hapah:
Okami No Rei:
lordnincompoop:
ToonyMan: Okami No Rei
No Lynch: ToonyMan
Not Voting: Hapah, lordnincompoop
Day 5 will last until Monday, 5/13 at 11 PM EST, ~8 hours from now.
Post by: ToonyMan on May 13, 2013, 03:42:36 pm
Spoiler: OOC (click to show/hide)
I don't think we'll need to extend again right?? What are you doing/voting Hapah and LNCP?
Post by: lordnincompoop on May 13, 2013, 04:07:21 pm
Reg. Toony's actions:
I used a Scroll of Misdirection last night which redirects anybody
This was posted D5. It's safe to assume "last night" means N4. Claim 1: Used Misdirection N4.
This, as per the rules of the game, should have been delayed to N5 if it actually happened. Okami has a confirmable action, because there is no item (to my knowledge) that allows you to know to who you have redirected someone's action. Hapah also has a confirmable action, and needless to say I know what I did N4. That means that this cannot have happened, and that a Misdirection occurred on N3 which was delayed by Hapah.
I used a Scroll of Knowledge I got D1. I was definitely delayed.
Claim 2: Used Knowledge N3.
This is an excellent item to fakeclaim because it doesn't rely on anyone else confirming your action for you, and with this few players, if you wait long enough, there is a good chance to be able to BS up a result by looking at others' action claims.
LNCP delays Toony (confirmed)
Toony misdirects LNCP onto himself (confirmed), Toony gets delayed.
Hapah treasures LNCP (confirmed)
Okami tracks LNCP (confirmed), sees he targeted Toony.
He implies as much here. The only way this is resolved is that the scroll was used earlier, and he has used an unknown action N4.
Some of the other suggestions mentioned by others here don't make sense, because:
1. Hapah can't really be lying unless there's some shenanigans going on, but there's no kill either.
No space for kill, as said below.
2. Okami could have figured LNCP was going to target me which leaves him completely open for anything, like a Scroll of Confusion on LNCP.
Makes no sense, because if Okami used a scroll of Confusion, that means that he can no longer assume I targeted Toony.
3. I was delayed so LNCP is likely telling the truth, but there's no kill either.
That's because everyone but you used confirmable actions, and you got delayed. There's no space for a kill.
4. Other possibilities I can think of are Scroll of Darkness, somebody has Kill Resistance and actually survived a kill, another Scroll of Slowing is screwing everything up even more, etc.
Again, no space for a kill. There was no space for a kill last night either, to my knowledge, as all actions were again confirmable but Toony's. Since it is Toony's Misdirect that must've triggered, but this action cannot have occurred N4, it means that his N3 action is confirmed to have been a Misdirect. There was no Slowing scroll either N3 or N4, because there was no space for it, and that means there is no "screwing-up" other than what was caused by Hapah and I.
If I (Hapah) was lying about my N4 action, that'd mean that LNCP would have known about it. The only way LNCP would go along for the ride if I was lying is if we weren't enemies (same scumteam, cult, one of us survivor and the other scum, whatever). I see the possibility of 2 anti-town players left at this point as remote, but you can come to your own conclusions.
This is MYLO. There is no configuration where this'd work out with a fakeclaim, as inevitably this implies either a scum and a Townie working in concert or two Townies working in concert.
Toony is the odd factor here. Granted, delays obscure the setup here, but it's clear there's at least one fakeclaim involved.
Yes, I have considered No Lynching. It might even be a safer option, as it allows us to get more detail. Why I'm not doing it? Because I need to work, and I've run out of time to spend on this game. It might be a tired excuse at this point, but it is every bit as true as the first time I said it.
Spoiler: OOC (click to show/hide)
Post by: lordnincompoop on May 13, 2013, 04:09:05 pm
Ah, screw it. I expounded enough on that.
Post by: ToonyMan on May 13, 2013, 06:09:07 pm
There's certainly space if you're lying LNCP. Seeing as Okami would have to get a lucky guess (or you could say a caluclated guess) but he's reading town anyway. And Hapha's case is basically impossible. Screw me if it was somehow Okami this game though.
Post by: Hapah on May 13, 2013, 06:36:31 pm
Here's hoping it's not Okami, lol. I'll be interested to see scumchat after the game, that's for sure.
Anything else?
Flashy it is it seems.?
Post by: ToonyMan on May 13, 2013, 06:49:28 pm
Post by: ToonyMan on May 13, 2013, 07:01:57 pm
Guess I'll vote Toony as well. Wish work would have told me my schedule was going to be terrible; I feel like I half-assed it after D2.Who says the game is over??
Post by: Hapah on May 13, 2013, 07:03:26 pm
Post by: ToonyMan on May 13, 2013, 07:07:40 pm
What do you think the odds are that it won't end?If LNCP or Hapah are scum Okami can probably vig them. Otherwise...? I guess that means it's around a 66% of town win.
Post by: ToonyMan on May 13, 2013, 07:10:29 pm
Post by: Toaster on May 13, 2013, 10:10:47 pm
“No. I won’t give up now. The power... it is so close. Can you not FEEL the power here? We would be FOOLS to pass this up! Come, join me! We can bring back the glory of Zodank!”
The other three stare at him. Okami shakes his head. “No, you fool! You have been tricked by the last flicker of an evil god. Surrender now and come with us, and seek redemption outside.”
Hapah nods. “Throw down your weapons and give up this nonsense.” He takes a step toward Toonyman, holding his hands outward.
Toonyman growls. “NEVER!” He lunges directly at Hapah, knife raised to attack. No one is close enough to stop it, and Hapah is unprepared. The knife falls toward Hapah.
From nowhere, an arrow flies out and takes Toonyman in the side. He falls over, bleeding and choking- it has pierced his lung badly, and Toonyman fades quickly.
Lordnincompoop walks over and pulls out the arrow. He studies it and the body for a while. “Funny... this matches the arrows he has. How could he possibly have shot himself?” No one has an answer.
The three surviving adventurers, their mission completed, return to the city and collect their reward. They have to wonder, though- was the gold worth the horrors they faced?
ToonyMan has been lynched! He was a Thief (Mafia).
Game over! Town has won!
Post by: Toaster on May 13, 2013, 10:13:33 pm
Dead Chat (http://www.quicktopic.com/50/H/yfvtrtbHFMU6p)
SK Chat (http://www.quicktopic.com/50/H/qnU6rYncD89DY)
Spoiler: Role PMs (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Day 1 Item Gains (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Night 1 Actions (click to show/hide)
Post by: Toaster on May 13, 2013, 10:17:44 pm
Spoiler: Day 2 Item Gains (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Night 2 Actions (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Day 3 Actions (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Night 3 Actions (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Day 4 Item Gains (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Night 4 Actions (click to show/hide)
Post by: Toaster on May 13, 2013, 10:19:34 pm
Hope everyone enjoyed it, despite all the modkills. I meant to write some flavor for that, but never got around to it. Damn you lazy mods!
I feel bad for Leafsnail, who pulled the mighty Scroll of Genocide and totally whiffed. Dead chattians, that's what I was referring to.
Post by: zombie urist on May 13, 2013, 10:22:52 pm
Why didn't Toony's kill go off during N5?
Post by: Vector on May 13, 2013, 10:23:04 pm
Post by: Toaster on May 13, 2013, 10:28:35 pm
Hooray! TOWN VICTORY!
Why didn't Toony's kill go off during N5?
Well, technically it would, but N5 never happened because the D5 lynch won it. I worked it into flavor because flavor.
Post by: ToonyMan on May 13, 2013, 10:30:49 pm
EDIT:
Town probably would have lost if they didn't lynch me today, unless they got pretty damn lucky and rolled a third Scroll of Slowing.
In any case, I hope this shows how good I am at lying in a game mode I've never played before (not very). Actually I'm shocked I managed to get Okami to No Lynch with me D4.
Also god damn you Okami, your Wand of Death was actually a Scroll (surprising nobody) but it really would have helped me out if you tried to kill me.
Post by: zombie urist on May 13, 2013, 11:03:03 pm
Ohhh I thought Toony did the kill N3.Hooray! TOWN VICTORY!Well, technically it would, but N5 never happened because the D5 lynch won it. I worked it into flavor because flavor.
Why didn't Toony's kill go off during N5?
Post by: ToonyMan on May 13, 2013, 11:14:16 pm
Post by: lordnincompoop on May 13, 2013, 11:37:58 pm
I wanted to set up a Misdirection mess while performing my kills but I was getting delayed EVERY NIGHT. If LNCP didn't roll that Scroll of Slowing and target me I would have been doing really well.
I got very cautious because you're a good player with a good scum play. Frankly, I think I'd have overlooked you if it weren't for that.
Post by: ToonyMan on May 13, 2013, 11:52:27 pm
Post by: Tiruin on May 14, 2013, 06:56:47 am
...I can't believe IG killed us off :I
Post by: notquitethere on May 14, 2013, 08:21:16 am
Post by: ToonyMan on May 14, 2013, 09:40:38 am
...I can't believe IG killed us off :IIt made me really happy we didn't start mass-claiming.
Post by: Hapah on May 14, 2013, 08:47:11 pm
Congratulations Hapah for making it to the end of the game and also never asking for a replacement. We were at 75% replaced players at the end there.I couldn't give 100%, but I made it a point to stick around that late into the game. Had to get out of Magic Mafia, though: Too much stuff going on for me to keep straight with my limited time.
Any gems in scumchat/deadchat?
Post by: ToonyMan on May 14, 2013, 10:07:02 pm
Post by: zombie urist on May 14, 2013, 10:08:56 pm
Or maybe I would think of making it rare instead of artifact.
Post by: Toaster on May 14, 2013, 11:58:30 pm
If he had picked Paladin he would have killed NQT and Soldier- Zrk2 as well if he hadn't been lynched.
Post by: Imperial Guardsman on May 15, 2013, 05:53:17 am
Post by: Leafsnail on May 15, 2013, 07:19:55 pm
Paladin was my second choice but I was reluctant to pick it since we already had a paladin down.
Post by: notquitethere on May 15, 2013, 07:23:08 pm
Post by: zombie urist on May 15, 2013, 07:47:43 pm
?oGenocide is also interesting as it becomes weaker as the game goes on.
Post by: Toaster on May 15, 2013, 09:54:15 pm
Paladin is really a great choice for third parties, as they can use both parts of their ability to the fullest. I think it's fine as is, though, since third parties typically need all the help they can get.