Bay 12 Games Forum
Other Projects => Curses => Topic started by: Vherid on April 20, 2013, 09:23:01 am
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So I want to open this up and ask a few questions.
How do you feel about the current balance of weapons?
We're talking, prices, damage, the fact the AK and M4 are the same, what do you think about it all as it currently stands.
Would you like a few more weapons?
I'm not talking a huge addition of weapons, but maybe you'd like a TEC-9 and a MAC10 as much as just an MP5.
Do you like the vague names, or do you want real names?
Knife, Pistol, .45 Semiauto, etc. Do you like it like this, or would you want more real names?
Is there anything else here, that I have not listed you might want to mention?
What are your feelings on all of these subjects, because if possible, I would like to give the weapons in this game, a nice and accurate rehaul. In the mods I've worked on I've mostly tanked through a big spreadsheet of all the weapons so that I could balance them in every aspect, and turning in a revolver is not going to get you less money then turning in a shank, not that that was an issue, but that's an example.
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Do you like the vague names, or do you want real names?
Knife, Pistol, .45 Semiauto, etc. Do you like it like this, or would you want more real names?
The most important thing about the names, in my view, is that they're iconic and easy to understand. MP5 SMG says "SMG" in the name. "Pump Shotgun" makes it clear that it's a shotgun. If you renamed Pump Shotgun to Remington Model 870, most players wouldn't know what they were looking at, what skill it used, or why they'd want it.
In the last version of LCS that Tarn Adams touched, pistols were broken out into revolvers (.22 and .44 magnum) and semiautomatic pistols (9mm and .45), and rifles were broken out into shotgun, M16, and AK47. So the only actually named guns were the iconic infantry rifles of the US and USSR in the cold war. I try to keep this in mind while working with the range of weapons in the game -- it's important that the game bring the player with if it's going to increase in complexity. Detail and novelty is wasted if it leaves players in confusion.
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Actually, instead of more guns more melee or other weapons would be LCS like. Antique crossbows, machetes, etc. Some DF easter-eggs would be hilarious, but that is up to Jonathan
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Do you like the vague names, or do you want real names?
Knife, Pistol, .45 Semiauto, etc. Do you like it like this, or would you want more real names?
The most important thing about the names, in my view, is that they're iconic and easy to understand. MP5 SMG says "SMG" in the name. "Pump Shotgun" makes it clear that it's a shotgun. If you renamed Pump Shotgun to Remington Model 870, most players wouldn't know what they were looking at, what skill it used, or why they'd want it.
In the last version of LCS that Tarn Adams touched, pistols were broken out into revolvers (.22 and .44 magnum) and semiautomatic pistols (9mm and .45), and rifles were broken out into shotgun, M16, and AK47. So the only actually named guns were the iconic infantry rifles of the US and USSR in the cold war. I try to keep this in mind while working with the range of weapons in the game -- it's important that the game bring the player with if it's going to increase in complexity. Detail and novelty is wasted if it leaves players in confusion.
Yes that's definitely one of the things I noticed and agreed with a bit.
Actually, instead of more guns more melee or other weapons would be LCS like. Antique crossbows, machetes, etc. Some DF easter-eggs would be hilarious, but that is up to Jonathan
More melee stuff is also viable, I think my mods have too much, but maybe throwing in something like a machete would be nice.
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I think different knives would be good, a combat/kitchen/butcher knife/dagger for normal combat, a shank for secret weapons, and a hidden blade that at >10 skill insta-kills an enemy.
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I have no objection to DF easter eggs. Catch: anything that doesn't exist in the LCS universe is fictional, even if implemented. For example, a sword can be useful, but so-called "adamantine" clothing is a Halloween costume, not awesome armor.
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I shall restate my desire for the AA-12 fully automatic shotgun to be included as the weapon of Hardened Mercenaries/CCS Bosses. It fills a niche that is not filled (high-power shotgun). It should have a higher chance to blast organs than other weapons.
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I'd like to see for weapons:
An anti tank weapon, eg RPG-7, etc
Another sub machine gun with lower accuracy than the MP5 but higher capacity mags, like a MAC-10/11
Also want to be able to buy machine guns (M249, maybe a new one) at gun control C++
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You can buy the M249 at C (I think?) or C+ gun control, although from the Department Store rather than the gun shop.
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So I want to open this up and ask a few questions.
How do you feel about the current balance of weapons?
We're talking, prices, damage, the fact the AK and M4 are the same, what do you think about it all as it currently stands.
Would you like a few more weapons?
I'm not talking a huge addition of weapons, but maybe you'd like a TEC-9 and a MAC10 as much as just an MP5.
Do you like the vague names, or do you want real names?
Knife, Pistol, .45 Semiauto, etc. Do you like it like this, or would you want more real names?
Is there anything else here, that I have not listed you might want to mention?
What are your feelings on all of these subjects, because if possible, I would like to give the weapons in this game, a nice and accurate rehaul. In the mods I've worked on I've mostly tanked through a big spreadsheet of all the weapons so that I could balance them in every aspect, and turning in a revolver is not going to get you less money then turning in a shank, not that that was an issue, but that's an example.
oH oh! YES!
STATS BALANCE:
Barrel length shouldn't make as many points different damage as it does in the AR15 family. I modded my game so that EVERY 5.56 weapon (m4,ar15, m249, and m16) do about the same damage, with the M4 (14.5") and the m249 (18") doing slightly less damage than the m16/ar15, under ten points difference. Most importantly, bring the M249 in line to about (10+1d251). Or 1d246 if we think 2 inches of barrel is really significantly different.
.44 magnum is a little over powered, but no ridiculously so. 44 out of a 7.5" barrel gets about 1600 J of energy. 5.56 gets about 1600 to 1700 J of energy out of a 20" barrel. The damages (10+1d276, 44 mag) vs (10+1d251 556) should be closer in my opinion.
7.62x39 ought to do a little more damage than 5.56, but also have it's multiple hit difficulty increased. It also ought to have a bit more armor penetration. To play it safe, my game is modded so that 556 actually has its Armor pen value DECREASED by one, and the AK stays the same.
Seeing 45 peforming worse than 9mm in armor pen values would also be satisfying, and 45 outperforming 9mm in damage by about 5-15 points would be satisfying as well.
The AA12 needs to have it's successive hits chance increased significantly, to about 5 is where I have mine. Shotguns kick.
.45's really ought to have their capacity or something - the iconic all american favorite M1911 (what everyone should think of when they hear .45ACP) hold 7+1 rounds, but some of them have magazines that hold 14+1 rounds. Personally I'd go with the gun in LCS being an 1911- and rename it something like .45 1911 pistol. It's an iconic american weapon that CCS backers, high and mighty CIA agents and evil conservative Concealed Carriers would adore.
.45's are usually all about tradition. So therefore the lovely .45 pistol ought to have its capacity docked to 7+1 rounds.
9mm's need a modernization. 15 rounds of 9mm is kind of a thing of the past. The glock 17 (which has been a favorite of law enforcement and lots of conservative wrong thinkers) is pretty much now iconic for 9mm, but not really. Standard capacity for it is 17+1 rounds.
The massive beretta 92FS, issued to our troops, loved by movie makers but not as much by the public compared to the glock, is the other poster child for 9mm. IT holds 15+1 rounds, which is low for how large the damn thing is. 17 rounders are now sold by Beretta, and 18 round aftermarket magazines exist flush fit. (Larger mags exist, but don't fit totally inside the gun. CONSIDER ALL MAGS HERE FLUSH FIT). The largest 9mm I know of is the Xd-M in 9mm, which holds 19+1 rounds, with flush fit mags.
15 rounds of 9mm is a thing of the past. The 9mm pistol needs to go up to 17 rounds.
TEXT AND FLAVOR: Doing just fine the way we are, but pistol names would be nice.
.50AE Desert Eagle sounds nice, and the caliber is a distinction I feel the LCS would make. "50 caliber! Those gun shoot like, plane killing bullets man!"
.45 1911 Pistol also helps add the iconic-ness to the .45 semiauto. Plus it helps clarify just what the .45 semiauto is. (semiautomatic rifle? semiautomatic carbine? I like that the names are quick and easy, but .45 Semi auto needs pistol in the name.)
9mm Beretta Pistol, or 9mm 92FS pistol instantly brings to mind the right image. I would suggest glocks as they're more popular, but then the military would have the wrong gun on base.
Other than that, I think the game is fine. I'd like to see sniper rifles in 308 get added (the sanitized hunting friendly rifles that the LCS loves), but they'd be useless unless we add more features like assassinations.
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Hm. . . I wonder how weapon variety might fit in if we have foreign ultra-nationalist groups form their own crime squads -
The news files already mention the stalinist crime squad, and of course you could always throw in a Nazi crime squad that might bring with themselves iconic german weapons. . . and, well, maybe a not so iconic german super weapon. . .
I mean a Maus MK. II high power secret military project backed by german extremists to damage America from the inside out. Basically, I want an excuse for a stronger tank as a boss. One that can take on "Liberal Armored Vehicles."
Then again, I don't really know how much the "average" person knows about guns-I was raised with them, had many weapons-especially German weapons-names and origin were recited to me as though they were the greatest, for all intents and purposes, raised alongside them and the military.
At least the Maus is somewhat more well known now, thanks to World of Tanks. The only Maus was half finished anyways.
Other than that, perhaps some iconic weapons from movies? I'm sure any bond fan would recognize the Walter PPK (If they saw it.), though I don't see how it could possibly fill in any niche in the weapon variety we already have-it's no special pistol by most marks. Perhaps make it special in that it could be hidden from view with ANY clothing/armor besides naked. Probably.
I wouldn't mind some low grade explosives besides molotovs, but how to fit them into the laws is another question. Especially if somebody sees the newest LCS and screams about us "Promoting and Training terrorism" by including the ability to manufacture your own home-made bombs. Sometimes its better to wait a while. . .
And don't mind us. We're just a bunch of white text. >_>
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I agree that more weapons is not really any better - I'm going to use the best ones available anyway, and I hate having to check a wiki for whether a <series of letters and numbers> is more or less powerful than <another series of letters and numbers>.
Anti-vehicle weapons would be a great addition, but that would require liberals to be able to carry more than one item with them so they won't expend bazookas on common enemies. It would also be nice to be able to have both a spray can and a weapon, but the whole inventory reworking required would be too much I suppose.
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It would also be nice to be able to have both a spray can and a weapon, but the whole inventory reworking required would be too much I suppose.
I would support this. Giving the squad that ability to bring equipment along with them would open up a lot of possibilities (for example, spare disguises).
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ITT: dumb foreigners who don't know what guns are
:P
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Probably allow squad members to keep secondary items (spray cans, Molotovs, crowbars), which would totally eliminate any disguise, and switch between the weapon and the item during a raid.
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Do you like the vague names, or do you want real names?
Knife, Pistol, .45 Semiauto, etc. Do you like it like this, or would you want more real names?
Keep things as generic as possible. Don't even mention the caliber, just make it "light pistol" or "heavy pistol". If you use real names, you'll end up having to implement half a gazillion of different guns (with negligible difference in game terms) just because people complain that their favorite isn't in the game yet.
I would eliminate spray cans as actual items and just subtract some money whenever spray cans are used.
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As the game only gives you the weapons name we need iconic name like how the .44 Magnum, is Dirty Harry's gun it is a large cannon of a pistol.
The .50AE Desert Eagle is this . (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uR5jufwSqm8) a massive super sized gun of doom
The ak47 well basicyf this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GF-t-0hDDIA)
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As the game only gives you the weapons name we need iconic name like how the .44 Magnum, is Dirty Harry's gun it is a large cannon of a pistol.
Actually, it's a revolver.
Obessing about guns is a conservative thing, by the way. Another reason to keep in-game guns generic. For liberals, guns are tools at best, a means to an end. Drooling over manufacturers, models and calibers makes as much sense to liberals as, say, talking about various brands, weights and styles of hammers when all you want to do is pound a nail (or break a window). :D
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Hm.
On generic versus specific, I am pretty neutral on the argument. Really, we could try for both for best effect-certain iconic guns could be named simply because everyone knows about them. Most, however, should be generic in the interest of ease of use.
On quantity of in game weapons, I feel there does not NEED to be more guns. Really, if we add more guns, what I'd like to see is either:
A:They fill a niche which needs filling, such as the AA-12 as a fully automatic shotgun, or the idea of an anti-tank weapon for the army bases.
Or
B:They are made with some special property in reference to something else-i.e. the Walther PPK isn't very powerful, but as the iconic weapon of Bond, it could be more easily hidden.
Of course, neither of these ideas are mutually exclusive or necessary, but they are there nonetheless.
On the subject of stat balance, I'll leave to those who actually look at the game data.
And finally, on the subject of switching items and weapons-or else some sort of inventory idea, I'm supportive if it's not too much trou- (crowbars), which would totally eliminate any disguise. . .
No.
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On the topic of guns, any thoughts on if this could fit into LCS: http://www.forbes.com/pictures/mhl45ediih/the-liberator/
If nothing else, it would allow stealthy Liberals to sneak firearms past metal detectors.
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The metal detectors don't seem to be working properly in my game anyway, I can usually get a magnum through.
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B:They are made with some special property in reference to something else-i.e. the Walther PPK isn't very powerful, but as the iconic weapon of Bond, it could be more easily hidden.
There are probably several dozen models of handguns that fill the same niche, with the only exception that they weren't used by JB.
"Small pistol" is all that's necessary in game terms. Well, in liberal terms, it would be "Small-but-still-way-too-deadly pistol". :D
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The term we're looking for for these small weapons that are easily hidden is Saturday Night Special, fellas. They're cheap, crude and shitty guns that are supposedly only sold to criminal elements and are of suspect quality...
I think they are within the realm of LCS's scope. They're a Hot ticket on the Liberal Agenda. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saturday_night_special
Modern implementations such as the wiki weapon project (the plastic liberator, which I donated to) follow the same idea as far as sensible liberal insights go...
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The term we're looking for for these small weapons that are easily hidden is Saturday Night Special, fellas. They're cheap, crude and shitty guns that are supposedly only sold to criminal elements and are of suspect quality...
Well, as far as I learned, there were also some fairly high-quality pistols that are/were classified as Saturday Night Specials. Certain Glock models and the PPK mentioned earlier. Ack, I'm sounding like a conservative!
That aside, I wonders if all those weapon skills are actually necessary or if they could be simplified and abstracted into a smaller number of skills, e.g. martial arts, melee weapons, handguns (pistols + SMGs), long guns (rifles + shotguns), heavy weapons. Maybe even roll martial arts and melee weapons into one skill, since many martial arts also include the use of weapons.
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Well, as far as I learned, there were also some fairly high-quality pistols that are/were classified as Saturday Night Specials. Certain Glock models and the PPK mentioned earlier. Ack, I'm sounding like a conservative!
You would be correct, but that's not how a sensible minded liberal thinks!
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*snip*
Any chances you could post your mod? :P
Probably allow squad members to keep secondary items (spray cans, Molotovs, crowbars), which would totally eliminate any disguise, and switch between the weapon and the item during a raid.
They shouldn't necessarily have to eliminate the disguise, maybe some sort of addition between weapon sizes and comparing them to the current disguise's max counseling. But I do agree with letting the squad members keep a secondary weapon
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The term we're looking for for these small weapons that are easily hidden is Saturday Night Special, fellas. They're cheap, crude and shitty guns that are supposedly only sold to criminal elements and are of suspect quality...
I think they are within the realm of LCS's scope. They're a Hot ticket on the Liberal Agenda. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saturday_night_special
Modern implementations such as the wiki weapon project (the plastic liberator, which I donated to) follow the same idea as far as sensible liberal insights go...
Ah, while reading that I thought you were talking about those tiny revolvers and one-shot pistols that can fit in the palm of your hand.
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The term we're looking for for these small weapons that are easily hidden is Saturday Night Special, fellas. They're cheap, crude and shitty guns that are supposedly only sold to criminal elements and are of suspect quality...
I think they are within the realm of LCS's scope. They're a Hot ticket on the Liberal Agenda. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saturday_night_special
Modern implementations such as the wiki weapon project (the plastic liberator, which I donated to) follow the same idea as far as sensible liberal insights go...
Ah, while reading that I thought you were talking about those tiny revolvers and one-shot pistols that can fit in the palm of your hand.
Derringers?
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I think it's fine the way it is. Abstracted is good for a rougelike, that 9mm pistol can be whatever particular make and model and variant you want it to be in your mind, we don't need to have two dozen types of 9mm pistols with all the boring obscure nomenclatures and marginal statistical differences. It doesn't really make sense from the thematic standpoint either. Liberals don't know a barrel shroud from a bedded fiberglass stock, let alone a hundred different variants of Glock pistols and their respective muzzle energies and whatever.
I always figured the 9mm and .45 pistols and M16 and AK-47 being identical in the game was a poke at the 9mm vs .45 debates and suchlike gun owners seem to have such strong opinions on, otherwise they are just redundant.
I think crossbows would be a good addition to the game though. They'd be illegal in L+ of course.
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The term we're looking for for these small weapons that are easily hidden is Saturday Night Special, fellas. They're cheap, crude and shitty guns that are supposedly only sold to criminal elements and are of suspect quality...
I think they are within the realm of LCS's scope. They're a Hot ticket on the Liberal Agenda. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saturday_night_special
Modern implementations such as the wiki weapon project (the plastic liberator, which I donated to) follow the same idea as far as sensible liberal insights go...
Ah, while reading that I thought you were talking about those tiny revolvers and one-shot pistols that can fit in the palm of your hand.
Derringers?
Yeah, and believe it or not they have even smaller ones. I forget who the manufacturer is by they have ones about the size of a quarter.
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The infamous saturday night special guns were Jennings, Raven, Phoenix Arms .22lr or .25 acp pistols and have long ago went out of business and their products are hard to come by. The pistols were not even all that bad, but the Gun Control Act of 1968 made them illegal, basically.
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The "gun" I'd most like to see added to the game is some kind of taser (or a de-branded equivalent). It could probably piggyback off the pistols skill, and basically be a one-shot gun which aims to incapacitate an enemy without killing them (but which would result in serious, sometimes fatal injuries occasionally).
Why I think it could be interesting:
1. Tasers could be used to varying degrees from C to L police laws (at C+ they'd just shoot the suspects, at L+ tasers are obviously banned). A greater chance of taking even armed liberals alive could increase the risk of racketeering charges or brainwashed people testifying against you.
2. Gives you a tool that can disable armed conservatives without racking up murder charges (maybe), and help kidnap people (although some balancing factor like the kidnapping is discovered quicker/ you have to wait for them to recover before interrogating them might be needed).
e: I know they're sortof in the game already, but not as an actual weapon.
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I'd like to have water guns in the game. I know they wouldn't be useful as a weapon, but they'd be terrific for annoying the conservative establishment!
EDIT: Now that I think about it, perhaps a water gun might be useful for martyring Liberals in the name of Gun Control. Squirt a cop, get gunned down by an over-enthusiastic police force, and proclaim how it never would have happened were we not living in a society where concealed weapons were a legitimate threat.