Post by: Leatra on June 01, 2013, 05:35:40 am
An occupy-like protest took place at the Gezi Park at 28 May. The aim of this protest was to stop the government from demolishing the park for a new mall. This peaceful intention turned into a country-wide protest after Erdoğan stated that this mall was going to be built "no matter what they do." The brutal police intervention sparked a bigger protest. People started walking towards Taksim, heart of İstanbul, to join the protest. Police tried to stop them from protesting and their intervention only made things worse.
This isn't about protecting some trees anymore. People were getting oppressed for years. We couldn't celebrate our national holidays like 23 April and 19 May. Government also outlawed the celebrations that was going to take place in Taksim at 1 May, worker's day. Turkey has the most imprisoned journalists to date. Ass-lickers are being rewarded and independent journalists are getting punished. There is also the incident with harsh alcohol laws. Selling of alcohol is going to be outlawed if you are 100 meters closer to a mosque or a school. This law change didn't take place yet. Some people are saying AKP is trying to change the subject with this alcohol law to divert the attention from a bombing that took place in Reyhanlı (which killed around 150 people but the government says death toll is around 50). It's illegal to write news about that incident anyway.
All this reached a boiling point with this Gezi Park incident. People are now wanting the government to resign.
This man (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_uofQzHb5hw) lost his life at the hospital after getting literally headshotted with water by an armored police truck.
A woman aged 25 lost her life after getting ran over by an armored police truck. This was confirmed by the friends of this woman. A journalist also said this from social media.
Quote
Translated from Turkish, words of a journalist:There have been another death but I don't know the specifics. I heard something about his eyes bleeding.
Just a moment ago our last reporter returned to the office and the first question I asked was about the girl who was rumored to be ran over by an armored police truck. I asked him if it was true or not. This is what he said:
"She was right behind me. I saw her getting run down from 2-3 meters away. We heard the news of her death. Police behind the armored truck were shouting "Run her over! Run her over!" to the driver of the truck.
There are also ten or more unconfirmed deaths. You know how easy it is to lie on social media so I'm staying skeptic.
I also heard something interesting. Around the street where police has taken control, cops are breaking the shop windows and vandalizing the shops around. The eye witnesses said they were doing this to get an opportunity to blame the protestors later. I don't know if it's true or not but I heard around 10 people saying this. I did witness protestors trying to help the shopkeepers.
There are hundreds of wounded and the most common reason for getting wounded is getting shot by gas canisters. The police is directly aiming at the head of citizens. One of them is Leyla Okay, a prominent actress and director who took a gas canister to head. She has bleeding in her brain and her situation is critical. Last time I heard about her she was going under surgery.
Cops also tried to enter a military hospital. They wanted the soldiers to move the barricades so the police can get the police trucks out of there more easily. Soldiers said it was a restricted area and they couldn't enter. A police officer said "Move the barricades or we will throw gas canisters inside." a soldier responded by saying "Go ahead and throw them, we will throw something else." Police is threatening everyone here, not just citizens.
You can see some photos about what's going on here: http://occupygezipics.tumblr.com/ (there are a few bloody pics a bit further, not for the fainthearted)
You can watch a live stream channel (http://www.vgtv.no/#!/video/65023/opptak-oppt%C3%B8yer-i-istanbul-recording-istanbul-riots) thanks to Norwegian media. Turkish media is useless when it comes to information at the moment.
A Turkish citizen is broadcasting live at Taksim here: http://www.livestream.com/revoltistanbul. He tends to run out of batteries a lot though.
There are some more streams I have managed to found but they all are down right now.
The solidarity here is incredible. People who have opposing ideologies are standing together. There are doctors down there working for free to help the wounded. Lawyers are also volunteering to defend the protestors for free. I heard about a brothel in Taksim opening it's doors to help the wounded and starving protestors. People are handing out home-made gas masks which were built from plastic bottles.
I have to cut this short. I have tons of things to say but I only slept for 2 hours last night. My eyes hurt like hell. I'll edit this later. I spent all night trying to figure out what was going on and I translated the information I found. I'll try to answer any questions after I wake up but since Turkish media is busy with licking the ass of government, I don't have much confirmed information myself. I'm getting lots of 504 errors. Internet is kinda slow right now. Spread the word, thanks for reading.
I'll keep posting when I get new information. Spread the news from the social media, I'm not really good at using it.
2. post (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=126678.msg4287650#msg4287650): Status of protestors, Turkish media
3. post (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=126678.msg4288598#msg4288598): Situation in Taksim, closer look to how people are surviving there and how they are protesting
4. post (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=126678.msg4289521#msg4289521): AKP is using loyalists as a militia, two examples of gas bombs police is using
5. post (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=126678.msg4290783#msg4290783): Humorous Anti-AKP grafitti across the country
6. post (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=126678.msg4291216#msg4291216): Protestors attacking TOMA armored police trucks with power shovels, a short summary of pre-revolution Turkey and how protecting a park turned into a rebellion, evidence of a cop firing gas canisters into apartments
7. post (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=126678.msg4291829#msg4291829): People getting attacked even inside their houses, probability of a full-scale mass strike, more police brutality
8. post (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=126678.msg4294039#msg4294039): Memorials for the martyrs, Kalashnikov found inside a wrecked police vehicle
9. post (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=126678.msg4300326#msg43003260): The commune-like lifestyle of Gezi Park occupiers, interesting graffiti, ideological views of the protestors
10. post (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=126678.msg4302196#msg4302196): A small post about how AKP politicians beg people to welcome the PM, protestors boycotting several companies.
THANKS FOR THE SUPPORT EVERYONE!
TL;DR: Just look at these pics really (http://occupygezipics.tumblr.com/)
The least you can do is spreading the photos here: http://delilimvar.tumblr.com/archive
Post by: Max White on June 01, 2013, 05:44:59 am
Be careful out there Leatra, and thank you very much for this thread.
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on June 01, 2013, 06:18:24 am
Good luck with that whole revolution business, try to keep Erdogan from fleeing to Saudi Arabia.
Post by: SalmonGod on June 01, 2013, 06:25:21 am
Post by: SethCreiyd on June 01, 2013, 06:28:05 am
Post by: Haspen on June 01, 2013, 06:47:05 am
Post by: scriver on June 01, 2013, 07:01:58 am
Posting to watch.
Post by: SalmonGod on June 01, 2013, 07:12:53 am
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
A 30 sec video supposedly of one of the fatalities so far. (http://banoosh.com/blog/2013/05/31/may-31-2013-turkey-istanbul-man-is-killed-by-police/)
Post by: Dutchling on June 01, 2013, 07:51:28 am
Post by: fricy on June 01, 2013, 07:56:43 am
Be careful & good luck from Hungary.
Post by: casserol on June 01, 2013, 08:23:40 am
Post by: Owlbread on June 01, 2013, 08:37:11 am
Post by: Zangi on June 01, 2013, 08:42:07 am
I will be going to Istanbul this Thursday for a week on holiday. I'm just going to avoid getting too close to protest areas. Good luck in the protests, however. I wish you all the best.What if the protest area is the whole city? You definitely should try to make some contingency plans.
Post by: Owlbread on June 01, 2013, 08:45:27 am
What if the protest area is the whole city? You definitely should try to make some contingency plans.
I am currently doing so. It will become clearer as the week goes on. If it goes nuts by Wednesday I'll just cancel the trip.
Post by: Leafsnail on June 01, 2013, 08:54:28 am
Post by: XXSockXX on June 01, 2013, 09:34:27 am
Here's a live stream of a protest in Istanbul (that one looks rather peaceful currently):
http://www.n24.de/n24/Mediathek/Live/d/2926112/tuerkei-istanbul-demonstrationen-proteste.html
EDIT:
The stream is over now, link doesn't work anymore.
Post by: misko27 on June 01, 2013, 10:50:10 am
Cannon. A whole lot of tear gas is being used, according to the article.
Be careful leatra, dying doesn't help anything. Stay inside if you can.
Post by: Sheb on June 01, 2013, 10:52:24 am
Good luck.
Post by: Leatra on June 01, 2013, 11:46:22 am
I will be going to Istanbul this Thursday for a week on holiday. I'm just going to avoid getting too close to protest areas. Good luck in the protests, however. I wish you all the best.There are some calmer sections of the city but you'll see lots of people who are walking on the street. Some places look like this:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
I can't be sure about what places are safe because... my favorite news channel was holding a discussion with 4 people while all this was happening and the topic of discussion: "What we should eat to stay healthy?". It's currently talking about football. Erdoğan appeared on the TV and told a bunch of lies about how nobody was seriously injured and he said the death reports were all lies. The bad thing is, there are people who are not aware of social media (old people mostly) and they are probably falling for this shit.
This is what people thinks of Turkish media.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Only a few channels are showing what's going on. Halk TV (http://www.ustream.tv/channel/halktvcanli) (literal translation: People TV) are showing what's going on all the time.
Some... interesting pics I managed to find.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Owlbread on June 01, 2013, 11:58:13 am
Post by: FearfulJesuit on June 01, 2013, 12:08:55 pm
Post by: XXSockXX on June 01, 2013, 12:15:16 pm
Isn't Turkey trying to get into the EU? What's this going to mean for that?Not much at the moment, there are a lot of other issues with Turkey joining the EU. Erdogan and the AKP are generally seen with a bit of scepticism, and attacking protesters is not going to make that any better.
Some more pics:
http://www.spiegel.de/fotostrecke/tuerkei-zusammenstoesse-zwischen-polizei-und-demonstranten-in-istanbul-fotostrecke-97425.html
http://www.tagesspiegel.de/politik/proteste-gegen-erdogan-in-der-tuerkei-fast-wie-eine-revolution-/8285604.html
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on June 01, 2013, 12:28:36 pm
Post by: SalmonGod on June 01, 2013, 12:34:05 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: 10ebbor10 on June 01, 2013, 12:40:18 pm
really hoping that's just rusty water.
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on June 01, 2013, 12:47:26 pm
Post by: Ochita on June 01, 2013, 12:53:14 pm
Post by: Boksi on June 01, 2013, 12:59:20 pm
Post by: XXSockXX on June 01, 2013, 01:23:19 pm
According to one post, simply going on 4chan is illegal, so that's rather interesting if it's true. From what I've gathered, the situation is that Erdogan is a theocrat whereas most turks only remember they're muslims on ramadan?That's oversimplifying the issues too much. Many political movements, left and right, in Turkey are very secular, most notably the Kemalists, the party of the founder of modern Turkey. Erdogan's AKP is pushing a more religious agenda, like the current restrictions on alcohol. The population in rural areas is pretty religious, whereas big cities like Istanbul are relatively western and secular. The issue is more that Erdogan does have an authoritarian streak while the population wants more democracy. And yeah, they do block websites, I think youtube has been blocked a few times.
Post by: Boksi on June 01, 2013, 01:29:24 pm
Well, yeah, it's a simplification, I've only been investigating this for an hour or so. The line about only remembering they're muslims on ramadan was paraphrased from another 4chan post by the way. If you want to read those threads yourself, go to /int/ rather than /pol/. /pol/ is full of fuckheads.According to one post, simply going on 4chan is illegal, so that's rather interesting if it's true. From what I've gathered, the situation is that Erdogan is a theocrat whereas most turks only remember they're muslims on ramadan?That's oversimplifying the issues too much. Many political movements, left and right, in Turkey are very secular, most notably the Kemalists, the party of the founder of modern Turkey. Erdogan's AKP is pushing a more religious agenda, like the current restrictions on alcohol. The population in rural areas is pretty religious, whereas big cities like Istanbul are relatively western and secular. The issue is more that Erdogan does have an authoritarian streak while the population wants more democracy. And yeah, they do block websites, I think youtube has been blocked a few times.
Post by: XXSockXX on June 01, 2013, 01:39:06 pm
Post by: misko27 on June 01, 2013, 06:37:20 pm
Still, colouring that much water is pretty striking, considering the colour and general state of the area.I recall reports (from the NY Times no less) the government mixed some chemicals in the Water, Tear Gas I believe, so that could also be part of it. Tear gas is not red though...
Post by: Leatra on June 01, 2013, 06:51:45 pm
There aren't any police around. Police is at Beşiktaş. Beşiktaş is bloodier than Taksim right now. The photos from Taksim at the moment is nothing compared to that. In Taksim, there aren't any gas canisters being shot but it's effects are still staying strong. My nose is still burning and my friend said his eyes were burning.
People are chanting things like "Standing together against fascist AKP!" "Turkey is secular and it will stay secular!" "Go to hell AKP!" and so on. There are interesting chantings but they kinda lose their meaning when translated to English. I also heard "Eat my dick, AKP!" at one moment. The crowd isn't getting rowdy at the moment. I only saw a guy throwing empty beer bottles around and that's it. People are actually very helpful. While we were walking around, a woman who looked like around 50-60 years old offered us some cakes. She said her daughters made them and she is offering them to protestors for free. It was really delicious.
People are playing music too. It's mostly traditional Turkish music but I saw some people dancing with Gangnam Style on the street. Some crowds are making noise with hitting things like saucepans lids and frying pans together. I also saw the video of a guy doing MJ's moonwalking dance in front of the cops.
There are lots of women around and I noticed some women shouting louder than men. It's good to see them standing up for themselves. This is what happens when you oppress women and treat them as baby-making machines. All that pressure is finally showing it's effects.
I noticed a security cabin with "WC" graffitied (is that a word?) on it. And here I was wondering where these people are using as a toilet. I took two pics from the graffs around.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
My phone has a crappy camera, I know. I have to take pics while moving because it's very crowded. I couldn't take pics of everything written because there are tons of graffs around. The ones I remember "You pissed on the mosque wall, Tayyip" "Tonight we are the law" "Fascist AKP" "[I heard] pepper spray makes the skin beautiful" "What's up Tayyip?" It's good that we still have our sense of humor. Some other graffiti photos I found from other sources.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Some other pics I took:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
I learned that police is using ambulances to carry gas canisters around. I also heard about someone who called an ambulance and after the ambulance came, a police squad jumped out of the ambulance's backdoors and started arresting the wounded. People are warning the others to not to call an ambulance and simply rely on protestor doctors who are helping the wounded for free. I saw a guy with "doctor" written with spray can on the back of his t-shirt.
I got the news of 1000 police officers and 15 police commissioners resigning from their jobs and joining the protestors. The number of resigned police officers was at 50 just a day ago. This isn't confirmed though. A police officer told that the best way to stop armored police trucks is sticking a wet towel into the exhaust. At least not all of them are monstrous.
I encountered a guy handing out vinegar and lemon to people who are passing-by. Mixing vinegar with water and rubbing your eye with it lessens the effects of pepper spray.
Beyazıt Öztürk, the most famous talk show host in Turkey, cancelled his program yesterday because (from his words) "While people are getting oppressed by the police in the Gezi Park, I'm not going to do an entertainment program."
I noticed stray dogs getting affected by the pepper gas. People were helping the affected dogs (http://24.media.tumblr.com/7bcebdb9056fa8bbf4af27697cf77c2d/tumblr_mnqfco1yGK1ste7qoo1_1280.jpg) and now we have the numbers of vets who are working for free. It's common for shopkeepers to put pet food and water outside of their shops and most stray dogs and cats stick to the places where they are well fed by shop owners.
Just outside of my apartment, people are shouting "Cheers, Tayyip!" and they are carrying a beer with them. That's sure to get Muslim fanatics angry.
BTW, this is how a home-made gas mask looks like. (https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-frc3/p480x480/969765_535842359810474_865690283_n.jpg)
The police have been so brutal. I've seen a few mentions of how much blood is in the streets and pictures of red puddles. This one is especially striking.Yeah, I accidentally stepped into that puddle.Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Will it be safe for me to visit some of the main attractions in Istanbul like the war museum, Hagia Sofia and the Blue Mosque, as well as the old Byzantine/Constantinople-era parts? Or are they the focus of some protests? Also, judging by your photographs and what you've said the situation looks much wilder than our news outlets in the UK are reporting it to be.Well there are some places you need to stay away from, like Taksim and Beşiktaş. Blue Mosque was very calm when I passed through there. I don't know about Hagia Sofia. The real focus is Taksim and the surrounding areas. Situation is calming down in Taksim but it's getting a lot wilder in Beşiktaş. Taksim just looks like an old battlefield now. Also the gas is still spreading around İstanbul and even if you are not close to Taksim you might get affected by it.
Turkey kinda doesn't care much about EU anymore really. News channels used to go on and on about how the progress of EU registration is going but nobody gives a shit anymore. Erdoğan once said he got fed up with slow EU progress and he is looking for a corporation with Shanghai Cooperation Organization. This is old news though.Isn't Turkey trying to get into the EU? What's this going to mean for that?Not much at the moment, there are a lot of other issues with Turkey joining the EU. Erdogan and the AKP are generally seen with a bit of scepticism, and attacking protesters is not going to make that any better.
There's some threads on this on 4chan too. According to one post, simply going on 4chan is illegal, so that's rather interesting if it's true. From what I've gathered, the situation is that Erdogan is a theocrat whereas most turks only remember they're muslims on ramadan? And I might as well post this link for Leatra and any other turk that might be reading: http://www.pcworld.com/article/218155/get_internet_access_when_your_government_shuts_it_down.htmlShopkeepers in Taksim are providing free internet. It's not a big problem to connect. Slowness of the internet is a problem though. 4chan was banned long time ago. Youtube, Google's blogger, and lots of other websites I can't think of right (especially the ones which are considered extremely leftist or anti-islam by AKP) are also banned. We know how to deal with DNS and proxies so it's not a problem. Dealing with signal jammers the cops are using is a pain in the ass though.
İstanbul is a lot more secular compared to rural areas but there is a big polarization among the population. Currently a secular group is heading towards Fatih from my neighborhood, and Fatih is like the HQ of fundamentalists. I don't know what happened yet, but I'm expecting blood.According to one post, simply going on 4chan is illegal, so that's rather interesting if it's true. From what I've gathered, the situation is that Erdogan is a theocrat whereas most turks only remember they're muslims on ramadan?That's oversimplifying the issues too much. Many political movements, left and right, in Turkey are very secular, most notably the Kemalists, the party of the founder of modern Turkey. Erdogan's AKP is pushing a more religious agenda, like the current restrictions on alcohol. The population in rural areas is pretty religious, whereas big cities like Istanbul are relatively western and secular. The issue is more that Erdogan does have an authoritarian streak while the population wants more democracy. And yeah, they do block websites, I think youtube has been blocked a few times.
There are lots of Turks who say they are Muslim but they don't go to mosques, they don't read Qur'an, and they don't do namaz (is there an English equivalent for that?). All my friends are Muslim in name only. It almost like they are deists. The "%99 of the population is Muslim" is bullshit. Nobody believe that. I know lots of people who are keeping their true faith (or lack of faith, for that matter) secret. I know 3 Tengriist masquerading as Muslims myself.
I'm currently zapping through Turkish TV channels, and let's see... hmm, a stupid tv series, a football match, a beauty contest, a dude talking about how life is in Beirut, some more stupid tv series, oh hey a channel is talking about Taksim. Erdoğan is saying "The opposition party is shouting "Government should resign and pull back the cops" Well, I say to them, cops were there yesterday, they are there today, and they will be there tomorrow. Taksim has turned into a haven for people with extreme ideologies." He is right about the fact that it's not about saving a few trees anymore but "extreme ideologies"... Well, some people might consider democracy a bit extreme I guess.
That's all for now. Thanks for the support everyone. I'm extremely depraved of sleep but I can't sleep because I don't want to miss what's going on. I'll try to get some sleep though. I have exams starting Monday.
Post by: Scelly9 on June 01, 2013, 06:54:43 pm
Post by: Owlbread on June 01, 2013, 06:57:51 pm
Post by: IronyOwl on June 01, 2013, 07:01:24 pm
Yeesh, that's... wow. Be careful out the Leatra.Pretty much this. Oh, and good luck, both personally and for your country.
Post by: misko27 on June 01, 2013, 07:04:59 pm
When you get back Leatra, are those homemade gas masks for sale or are people just making them in their homes?...I'm going to guess they're being given out, given what I've read. Or making it. Frankly a rowdy mob is not a great place to do somethigng so, what's the word? Obviously grubby? I mean there are Doctors aiding people for free.
Post by: FearfulJesuit on June 01, 2013, 07:09:19 pm
Post by: Kansa on June 01, 2013, 07:13:37 pm
Post by: Sheb on June 01, 2013, 07:29:47 pm
Post by: DWC on June 01, 2013, 07:43:40 pm
Post by: Askot Bokbondeler on June 01, 2013, 07:49:32 pm
Post by: alway on June 01, 2013, 08:00:34 pm
Quote from: From the Turkey protest article's page
Are you at the protests? If so please contact us using the form below.With a form under it for submitting contact info and such as well.
Send your pictures and videos to yourpics@bbc.co.uk or text them to 61124 (UK) or +44 7624 800 100 (International). If you have a large file you can upload here. (http://bbcnewsupload.streamuk.com/)
Anything big turns up, send it there.
Oh, and congratulations; you guys are now the biggest news story. Headline story on the websites of CNN (US & international), BBC, and AlJazeera.
Post by: Bdthemag on June 01, 2013, 08:06:05 pm
Well...nothing against 4chan, but it doesn't strike me as a very reliable news source or a good place to get a political education. ;)/int/ is a great place to get this kind of international news that spreads via social media, besides some of the more..."different" opinions found on there once you shift through the noise you can find some really good stuff.
Post by: IronyOwl on June 01, 2013, 08:12:46 pm
Hope it all turns out well. Non-secular governments should never be tolerated.Non-secular is irritating, but not really the primary issue here, it seems like. Being secular isn't really a defense against or justification for having puppet news stations or brutal police crackdowns, for instance.
Post by: DWC on June 01, 2013, 08:26:08 pm
Hope it all turns out well. Non-secular governments should never be tolerated.Non-secular is irritating, but not really the primary issue here, it seems like. Being secular isn't really a defense against or justification for having puppet news stations or brutal police crackdowns, for instance.
Not all oppressive governments are non-secular, but all non-secular governments are oppressive.
Anyways, Turkey still has a tradition of democratic secularism. Ataturk was a secularist and the founder of modern Turkey, they should follow in his example, not taking after their neighbors to the east.
Post by: Owlbread on June 01, 2013, 08:31:22 pm
Post by: Foamybeard on June 01, 2013, 08:35:57 pm
I'm probably going to be the ONLY person saying this, but honestly, It needs to be said...
I seriously hope this is a real case of democracy springing up, and isn't like the various other revolutions that happened under the guise of the Arab Spring.
Post by: misko27 on June 01, 2013, 08:37:15 pm
So you consider the British government oppressive, DWC?This, my friends, is a loaded question in it's natural habitat.
But he has a point. They are headed by the Queen, who is in turn the head of the Church of England.
Be safe, Leatra!They are protesting against a religious Leader
I'm probably going to be the ONLY person saying this, but honestly, It needs to be said...
I seriously hope this is a real case of democracy springing up, and isn't like the various other revolutions that happened under the guise of the Arab Spring.
Post by: SalmonGod on June 01, 2013, 08:37:26 pm
Post by: werty892 on June 01, 2013, 08:37:58 pm
Post by: DWC on June 01, 2013, 08:38:29 pm
So you consider the British government oppressive, DWC?
The UK probably doesn't qualify as non-secular, although it nominally has an official religion. The links between church and state are mostly ceremonial formalities that have little or no impact on the governance there.
That said, the UK is a nanny state with plenty of restrictions on individual freedom. I wouldn't want to live there.
Post by: Max White on June 01, 2013, 08:40:11 pm
Post by: Foamybeard on June 01, 2013, 08:43:28 pm
So you consider the British government oppressive, DWC?This, my friends, is a loaded question in it's natural habitat.
But he has a point. They are headed by the Queen, who is in turn the head of the Church of England.Be safe, Leatra!They are protesting against a religious Leader
I'm probably going to be the ONLY person saying this, but honestly, It needs to be said...
I seriously hope this is a real case of democracy springing up, and isn't like the various other revolutions that happened under the guise of the Arab Spring.
Honestly, while I'm hoping for the best, I've honestly given up expecting things to turn out well.
Like, ya know, Libya. Over through a Dictator, and then put up members of Islamic extremist groups as their new leaders. Or, Egypt, that now has a leader who has called for the destruction of Israel multiple times in the past.
I'm just saying, I hope this one turns out better.
Post by: FearfulJesuit on June 01, 2013, 09:02:53 pm
Post by: DWC on June 01, 2013, 09:05:07 pm
I wonder how long it'll take for Erdoğan to crack. The third day of protests starts now...He can't start calling in the army (for one thing, they'll start defecting, and two, he can't shoot people in the streets, the troops won't do it and it'll just toughen the protesters' resolve), and he can't keep on keepin' on. He'll have to call elections or resign or do something. I can see this stage lasting maybe a week; past that point something has to give.
I dunno, maybe some sharia law fundamentalist thugs will be bused in to hold 'counter protests' and the police will let them duke it out.
Probably not. I don't think protests are going to topple this government or cause any civil war. Over some trees in a park, really.
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on June 01, 2013, 09:06:48 pm
Honestly, while I'm hoping for the best, I've honestly given up expecting things to turn out well.Gaddafi and Mubarak were secular dictators. Monstrous people, but being secular meant Islamists were always going to try to get themselves into the opposition.
Like, ya know, Libya. Over through a Dictator, and then put up members of Islamic extremist groups as their new leaders. Or, Egypt, that now has a leader who has called for the destruction of Israel multiple times in the past.
I'm just saying, I hope this one turns out better.
In this instance, the Islamists are already controlling the government and are the ones being protested against.
Probably not. I don't think protests are going to topple this government or cause any civil war. Over some trees in a park, really.It isn't over the park. The crackdown on the park protest just set everyone off. Erdogan's abuses are many.
Post by: FearfulJesuit on June 01, 2013, 09:09:21 pm
And it's really a damn shame, because Erdoğan has his head screwed on pretty straight economically and on most (hardly all) domestic policy. He's pretty power-hungry, and what he's ordered done to the protestors is some scary stuff, but he's competent, and I'm not entirely sure the same will be said for whoever takes his place. I'd love to see the protestors prove me wrong, though.
Edit: Dammit, MSH, stop ninja'ing me.
Post by: Foamybeard on June 01, 2013, 09:12:33 pm
Honestly, while I'm hoping for the best, I've honestly given up expecting things to turn out well.Gaddafi and Mubarak were secular dictators. Monstrous people, but being secular meant Islamists were always going to try to get themselves into the opposition.
Like, ya know, Libya. Over through a Dictator, and then put up members of Islamic extremist groups as their new leaders. Or, Egypt, that now has a leader who has called for the destruction of Israel multiple times in the past.
I'm just saying, I hope this one turns out better.
In this instance, the Islamists are already controlling the government and are the ones being protested against.
I hope it goes good, then. I'd hate to see Turkey get a worse tyrant than Erdogan.
Post by: DWC on June 01, 2013, 09:17:52 pm
But it isn't over some trees in a park. That's what started it, but it isn't about the park anymore than the Arab Spring was about a guy setting himself on fire. It's about Erdoğan's authoritarianism.
And it's really a damn shame, because Erdoğan has his head screwed on pretty straight economically. He's pretty power-hungry, and what he's ordered done to the protestors is some scary stuff, but he's competent, and I'm not entirely sure the same will be said for whoever takes his place. I'd love to see the protestors prove me wrong, though.
Edit: Dammit, MSH, stop ninja'ing me.
Yeah I know it's not about trees, but that's what people are going to refer back to. A guy setting himself on fire is expected to cause people to lose their shit and people will remember that, some trees in a park, well, that's not a very memorable spark.
I did hear about the problem with the trees in the park on the radio, before it kicked off major protests. The gov't wants to rebuild an historical military barracks that was once on the park site, and use that structure as a shopping mall. So it's not even as bad as if they were paving over some ancient patch of trees or something. It's part of their strategy for increasing tourism for the city or some such.
Although I understand this current government has been fairly unpopular with liberals since the day they took office, so idk.
Post by: Leafsnail on June 01, 2013, 09:20:25 pm
Post by: misko27 on June 01, 2013, 09:21:59 pm
Also impressive, Erdoğan hasn't even compromised on the Park issue, which s a level of denial-ism even Assad doesn't roll with (His stated plan is a national referendum).
Post by: alway on June 02, 2013, 12:49:43 am
Quote from: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-22744728
Amnesty International claimed two people had been killed and more than 1,000 injured, though there was no confirmation of those figures.Well, that's the first coverage I've seen of the supposed deaths from yesterday. And that seems to be a number of injured just slightly higher than the official government number of "53 civilians".
Post by: SalmonGod on June 02, 2013, 12:53:40 am
Post by: Leatra on June 02, 2013, 02:02:21 am
I love the smell of pepper spray in the morning.
Ahem. The cops are widening their arsenal. They are using this (http://www.defense-technology.com/products.aspx?pid=1091) and this (http://www.defense-technology.com/products.aspx?pid=1092). People are saying this is used together with other gas bombs to increase the effect. This is explained here (http://d3j5vwomefv46c.cloudfront.net/photos/large/777401805.png?1370131118) in Turkish. It's pretty much saying the same thing with the addition of "if one of them lands near you, don't attempt to pick it up and throw it back." Also, "Halkın fizikçileri" means "physicists of the people". Some people said the cops were using Agent Orange but this "physicist" is saying this is what's actually being used.
A TOMA armored vehicle ran down another protestor. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=sbYQ_dzFniY)
Spoiler: Soldiers from Hakkari showing support (click to show/hide)
Police is using AKP loyalists now. Whenever an AKP loyalist group starts throwing rocks at protestors, cops do nothing. They don't intervene. In this video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XP-GLsCkLWk&feature=youtu.be), you can see cops leading the way and the AKP loyalists following them. The people who are recording the video are shouting "Soldiers of Tayyip, keep walking... sons of bitches" "Join the people if you got the balls" "Don't walk from the back of the police, walk in front of them" "They are carrying iron clubs" This shows the true intention of the police. Why the cops aren't stopping them?
Police is attacking people like rabid dogs. (https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10151648526182702) The video might get deleted.
Spoiler: face of the police (click to show/hide)
In this video (http://youtu.be/P77BxQzeEK4?t=1m45s), you'll see cops and fanatics throwing rocks at protestors together. Pay attention to the clubs they are carrying.
Spoiler: Cops are using AKP loyalists (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: More pics (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: a gas bomb with expiration date of 2011 (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Protestors "liberating" some shields (click to show/hide)
AKP's reaction? "Well, it looks like they need some gas" (http://sozcu.com.tr/2013/gundem/akpli-vekil-direniscilerle-dalga-gecti.html) (Turkish source)
I'm sharing only confirmed information with evidence. There are lots of lies spreading around and it's difficult to get the truth.
Leatra, what's the average opinion on the street about the Kurds? Are they going to make their chance?Kurds are also joining the protest. Some people perceive this as an opportunity for PKK or somesuch. People are still having difficulty with standing together with this Kurd-Turk polarization. It's not only about Kurds, the most common clashing ideologies are secularism-fundementalism and leftism-rightism. All things considered, this is still the most strong act of solidarity I have seen from this nation. Pretty much everyone agrees that AKP must go and this is bringing people together. I have no idea what will become of the Kurd problem after this.
When you get back Leatra, are those homemade gas masks for sale or are people just making them in their homes?People are making them in homes. All you need is a plastic bottle and some tools to do the cutting. People are also handing them out for free on street. However, my friend said he saw a bastard trying to sell some to two Russian tourists. People like these try to make profit of every situation.
Primary issue is the oppressive and authoritarian regime of AKP but since AKP represents the non-secular here, that tends to come up a lot while protesting. A common chant used by protestors is "Turkey is secular, it will stay secular!". Also you can be sure that AKP loyalist equals fundamental Islamist. So it kinda turns into a Secularists vs Fundamentalists in the end.Hope it all turns out well. Non-secular governments should never be tolerated.Non-secular is irritating, but not really the primary issue here, it seems like. Being secular isn't really a defense against or justification for having puppet news stations or brutal police crackdowns, for instance.
Not all oppressive governments are non-secular, but all non-secular governments are oppressive.
Anyways, Turkey still has a tradition of democratic secularism. Ataturk was a secularist and the founder of modern Turkey, they should follow in his example, not taking after their neighbors to the east.
Spoiler: Now look at this picture and forget what I have said (click to show/hide)
Every AKP loyalist is a fundamentalist, but not every religious person is an AKP loyalist. That "We can't stand..." slogan is used frequently by the secularists. It started to be used when the government decided to enforce harsh laws about alcohol. The law isn't in effect yet, but if it's implemented selling of alcohol in 100 meter radius of any school or mosque will be a crime. Enough backstory, if a woman wearing a turban is holding a banner like that, there is a beautiful exception there. She is defending the rights of others. It doesn't matter if she's religious or not. It doesn't matter if she drinks alcohol or not. This is a rare sight and I wish there was more of that. So is it a secularists vs fundamentalists thing? I dunno, I'm not stating an opinion, I'm giving information and letting the people decide for themselves.
Something else of note, here's some info you may find useful; at the bottom of big articles on the BBC there's contact info for photos, interviews, ectI posted some important pics and videos. Biggest news story? I guess all the hours I spent with collecting, translating, validating and relaying information is well spent. I still got a feeling of "I should do something!" all the time though. I can't sleep because of it.Quote from: From the Turkey protest article's pageAre you at the protests? If so please contact us using the form below.With a form under it for submitting contact info and such as well.
Send your pictures and videos to yourpics@bbc.co.uk or text them to 61124 (UK) or +44 7624 800 100 (International). If you have a large file you can upload here. (http://bbcnewsupload.streamuk.com/)
Anything big turns up, send it there.
Oh, and congratulations; you guys are now the biggest news story. Headline story on the websites of CNN (US & international), BBC, and AlJazeera.
Be safe, Leatra!Thanks. That's what I'm hoping. The bloody circle of revolution is well known to me. This authoritative Islamist agenda needs to be stopped. I'm hoping for a non-rigged elections soon with the exclusion of AKP. The problem is, people are just walking around, shouting slogans, clashing with police, etc. We need a manifesto, a statement, a demand from the government. Occupying Taksim until the government drops it might not be the best course of action.
I'm probably going to be the ONLY person saying this, but honestly, It needs to be said...
I seriously hope this is a real case of democracy springing up, and isn't like the various other revolutions that happened under the guise of the Arab Spring.
sharia law fundamentalist thugs will be bused in to hold 'counter protests' and the police will let them duke it out.Whoa, good guess!
Truth. I can't really start counting the shit Eroğan puts us through but I can say this, this isn't about a park anymore. People are chanting "AKP, resign!". We were fed up and this was the last straw. It changed into something much bigger when police started headshotting people with gas bombs.In this instance, the Islamists are already controlling the government and are the ones being protested against.Probably not. I don't think protests are going to topple this government or cause any civil war. Over some trees in a park, really.It isn't over the park. The crackdown on the park protest just set everyone off. Erdogan's abuses are many.
I heard that there are four confirmed deaths. I heard around 15 deaths while rummaging through the pile of information on the internet. People who are injured must be definitely more than 1,000 if photos are anything to go by. People are puking their guts out because of gas and then passing out. I'd say it's higher than 53.Quote from: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-22744728Amnesty International claimed two people had been killed and more than 1,000 injured, though there was no confirmation of those figures.Well, that's the first coverage I've seen of the supposed deaths from yesterday. And that seems to be a number of injured just slightly higher than the official government number of "53 civilians".
Thanks for the support everyone!
Spoiler: Some more photos (click to show/hide)
EDIT: WATCH THIS
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=551869698185497
PAY ATTENTION THE BEARDED GUY WEARING A WHITE SHIRT SHOUTING
He is shouting "Don't record" to the cameraman. Maybe civil police, maybe a fanatic civilian. Doesn't matter. This is way too cruel.
Post by: Max White on June 02, 2013, 02:41:11 am
That is insane.
Look out for yourself Leatra, and please keep us updated. I would hate to think something like that had happened to you.
The Australian public seems to support your cause. The cruelty of your government and police are being broadcast nationally.
Post by: Ukrainian Ranger on June 02, 2013, 03:02:35 am
Good luck fighting with authoritarianism, hope that that will end with as few causalities as possible
Really glad to see stuff like that:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Slayerhero90 on June 02, 2013, 03:33:02 am
Yeesh.
Well... please keep us updated. I want to know more about this.
Post by: Yoink on June 02, 2013, 04:46:05 am
Also, despite the unpleasant nature of events, some of the photos taken have been quite beautiful in one way or another... That photo of the bridge Leatra shared before (which was also on the Tumblr) being a case in point.
Stay strong!
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on June 02, 2013, 05:12:09 am
Some people said the cops were using Agent Orange but this "physicist" is saying this is what's actually being used.It is very doubtful they are using Agent Orange. There's the matter of it being hard to obtain, but even if they had it the fact remains that Agent Orange is primarily a herbicide and defoliant. It is dangerously toxic but not in a manner that makes a useful weapon.
Post by: Akura on June 02, 2013, 05:19:26 am
Before I read this thread, I had barely any clue that anything was wrong with Turkey.Same here. Yeesh indeed.
Yeesh.
Well... please keep us updated. I want to know more about this.
Post by: Sheb on June 02, 2013, 05:39:21 am
(http://www.bradblog.com/Images/OccupyUCDavis_LtJohnPike_PepperSpray_111811.jpg)
Although I could see Erdogan spreading defoliant on gezi to say "fuck you".
Post by: misko27 on June 02, 2013, 08:57:38 am
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
All of those have been used in Istanbul. Yeah, I don't know how they got that, but whatever.
Post by: XXSockXX on June 02, 2013, 10:26:53 am
I posted some important pics and videos. Biggest news story? I guess all the hours I spent with collecting, translating, validating and relaying information is well spent. I still got a feeling of "I should do something!" all the time though. I can't sleep because of it.
Posting pics and videos is doing something. Not only do we get a very interesting account of the events (thanks for that!), more importantly international media is reporting on the events, using pics and videos from social media that provide a much clearer view of things than what "official" reports are admitting. Ideally media attention will translate into political pressure and force Erdogan to stop police brutality.
Yesterday there was a support rally for Occupy Gezi in Berlin, with some 3000 people attending. That doesn't sound much, but Erdogan used to be popular amongst the turkish community in Germany (many of whom are eligible to vote in Turkey), so it might change something.
Take care!
Post by: Sheb on June 02, 2013, 12:26:30 pm
Also, he now want to build a mosque over Gezi park. What do you think, a way to brand protestors as anti-Islam?
Post by: LordSlowpoke on June 02, 2013, 12:31:49 pm
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on June 02, 2013, 12:32:57 pm
Also, he now want to build a mosque over Gezi park. What do you think, a way to brand protestors as anti-Islam?More like an expression of his own Islamist desires. Also, moronic. It will only serve to harden the opposition against him, while the rabid chucklefucks who would support paving public parks to build mosques already support him.
I hope he keeps being stupid, though that's hardly a risky bet. The global situation will be improved considerably once Erdogan is out of the picture.
Post by: Ukrainian Ranger on June 02, 2013, 12:33:43 pm
Spoiler: creative solution (click to show/hide)
Post by: GlyphGryph on June 02, 2013, 01:30:46 pm
Post by: Parsely on June 02, 2013, 01:34:35 pm
How close have you gotten to all of this, and is this pretty much right outside your home, or do you have to walk a bit before you start seeing protestors? My assumption is that its all over the place, but you were talking about the areas in which most of the violence was happening.
Post by: Leatra on June 02, 2013, 05:22:19 pm
Spoiler: Here is how things look like from my apartment's window (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Some graffs around (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Some graffs around part 2: The oppressed strikes back! (click to show/hide)
People are using this map to find the safest routes to protest areas and people who are requiring medical help. (https://maps.google.com/maps/ms?msid=207368859026831467268.0004de1f7b9f832178431&msa=0&ll=41.038546,28.990731&spn=0.009436,0.017831) A similar map is being used by people in Ankara to relay intelligence to protestors.
Okan Bayülgen, a talk show host and an activist, asked the protestors to write their blood type on their arms for easier treatment later. (https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-frc3/970039_390749271043487_176836976_n.jpg) He also recorded this (http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x10foid_okan-bayulgen_news#from=embediframe) yesterday.
I found this "IMPORTANT: The orange/red liquid was confirmed by several sources to be CS mixed with orange or red paint(different in different areas of the city) to tag protesters for later identification.Some people said the cops were using Agent Orange but this "physicist" is saying this is what's actually being used.It is very doubtful they are using Agent Orange. There's the matter of it being hard to obtain, but even if they had it the fact remains that Agent Orange is primarily a herbicide and defoliant. It is dangerously toxic but not in a manner that makes a useful weapon.
It should be clarified that it WAS NOT agent orange, a rumour that spread a lot. agent orange is colourless, named after orange stripes on the barrels it was shipped in."
Thanks. But I really want to be there with protestors with a camera and streaming in English. I'm feeling tired even after sleeping though. I guess I'll just keep relaying information.I posted some important pics and videos. Biggest news story? I guess all the hours I spent with collecting, translating, validating and relaying information is well spent. I still got a feeling of "I should do something!" all the time though. I can't sleep because of it.
Posting pics and videos is doing something. Not only do we get a very interesting account of the events (thanks for that!), more importantly international media is reporting on the events, using pics and videos from social media that provide a much clearer view of things than what "official" reports are admitting. Ideally media attention will translate into political pressure and force Erdogan to stop police brutality.
Yesterday there was a support rally for Occupy Gezi in Berlin, with some 3000 people attending. That doesn't sound much, but Erdogan used to be popular amongst the turkish community in Germany (many of whom are eligible to vote in Turkey), so it might change something.
Take care!
That's classic tactic of Erdoğan, using religion to brand people who oppose him as heretic deviants lacking any morality. We are talking about someone who once said "You can't be secular and Muslim at the same time." There is already a secular-fundamentalist polarization and Erdoğan keeps using it to keep the people fighting amongst themselves. I think this won't accomplish anything other than making the protestors more angry and more resolute. There are also religious people protesting too. Someone said he heard a group of protestors shouting "Allah-u Ekber!" and the people applauded them. This polarization isn't going to work. Of course there are strong anti-Islam and anti-Secularism feelings around too but it's rather rare.Also, he now want to build a mosque over Gezi park. What do you think, a way to brand protestors as anti-Islam?More like an expression of his own Islamist desires. Also, moronic. It will only serve to harden the opposition against him, while the rabid chucklefucks who would support paving public parks to build mosques already support him.
I hope he keeps being stupid, though that's hardly a risky bet. The global situation will be improved considerably once Erdogan is out of the picture.
People are sick of moral guardians. There was an interesting protest took place in Ankara at 25 May. People in the Ankara metro were warned with this warning: "Dear passengers, please act in accordance with code of ethics" Guess what people did?
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Stay safe out there Leatra. You're doing a good thing, but don't get yourself dead.Thank you. The protests that have been going on in front of my apartment have calmed down. This isn't the focus of protests, they were just regrouping at another place, I think. I went to Taksim yesterday. The cops were pulling back as I got there so there wasn't any danger. I didn't even see any cops around. Taksim was looking like the remains of a battlefield. People were still sitting and walking around. Beşiktaş is the MOST intense protest area right now. You can't see anything because of all that gas. People are tweeting and requesting assistance from people in Taksim.
How close have you gotten to all of this, and is this pretty much right outside your home, or do you have to walk a bit before you start seeing protestors? My assumption is that its all over the place, but you were talking about the areas in which most of the violence was happening.
So, I have 5 exams starting Monday. I didn't study even a little bit. I wonder what's going to happen once people have to go to work on Monday. Sunday and Saturday is the weekend here and people go back to work on Monday. Majority of protestors are people who are going to universities, so some violence may occur in universities between students with clashing ideologies. Leftist-Rightist fights were already common in universities before this.
Spoiler: Photos (click to show/hide)
Erdoğan just said "There is a menace called Twitter..." I hope AKP won't bring down the internet. It's our most powerful tool right now. He also said "I'm not going to ask for permission from some thugs to build a mall. The ones who voted for us already gave us the permission." He thinks democracy means punishing those who didn't vote for you.
Edit:
Spoiler: Much more interesting photos I missed (click to show/hide)
There are talks about full-scale mass strike. Nothing is decided yet.
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on June 02, 2013, 05:33:03 pm
Aha! It was viral advertising for Toshiba all along! Better lock the thread guys, this revolution is just another corporate stunt.Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Sheb on June 02, 2013, 05:44:55 pm
Post by: Scelly9 on June 02, 2013, 05:46:01 pm
I must say, I really love the sheer diversity of protesters you see on those pictures. Old, young, women, men, looking western and hip of sporting the headscarf. It really look like a united people.Occupy in STL was like that when I went. It was pretty cool.
Post by: Sheb on June 02, 2013, 06:23:47 pm
Post by: Foamybeard on June 02, 2013, 06:41:18 pm
I must say, I really love the sheer diversity of protesters you see on those pictures. Old, young, women, men, looking western and hip of sporting the headscarf. It really look like a united people.Occupy in STL was like that when I went. It was pretty cool.
It was different, however. This "Occupy" isn't "BANKERS ARE BAD CAPITALISM IS BAD. I WANT WHAT YOU HAVE, IT ISN'T FAIR THAT YOU HAVE MORE THAN ME!"
This is "We aren't going to stand for tyranny".
Post by: Scelly9 on June 02, 2013, 06:54:09 pm
Well, yeah. It also wasn't bloodsoaked streets and burning vehicles. I responded to the diversity comment.I must say, I really love the sheer diversity of protesters you see on those pictures. Old, young, women, men, looking western and hip of sporting the headscarf. It really look like a united people.Occupy in STL was like that when I went. It was pretty cool.
It was different, however. This "Occupy" isn't "BANKERS ARE BAD CAPITALISM IS BAD. I WANT WHAT YOU HAVE, IT ISN'T FAIR THAT YOU HAVE MORE THAN ME!"
This is "We aren't going to stand for tyranny".
Post by: GlyphGryph on June 02, 2013, 07:35:28 pm
This "Occupy" isn't "BANKERS ARE BAD CAPITALISM IS BAD. I WANT WHAT YOU HAVE, IT ISN'T FAIR THAT YOU HAVE MORE THAN ME!"No occupy was ever like that. Regardless, it's off topic - jumping into a thread just to be a dick about your personal hangups is not good behaviour. Stop being an asshole.
Post by: Mictlantecuhtli on June 02, 2013, 07:52:07 pm
Post by: Foamybeard on June 02, 2013, 08:33:48 pm
This "Occupy" isn't "BANKERS ARE BAD CAPITALISM IS BAD. I WANT WHAT YOU HAVE, IT ISN'T FAIR THAT YOU HAVE MORE THAN ME!"No occupy was ever like that. Regardless, it's off topic - jumping into a thread just to be a dick about your personal hangups is not good behaviour. Stop being an asshole.
I'm going to reply with equal hostility to what you gave me, alright?
Don't try and even try to bullshit me, Gryph. Occupy Wall Street and all the other occupy movements int he USA were fueled by jealousy, and a desire to cause a scene. And they couldn't even do it without the scumbags in the occupy movement without raping women, who were then told "Don't tell the cops, it'll make us look bad."
As I said, this is obviously different.
Anyway, I didn't just "Jump into the thread" to be a dick. I came to post "Good Luck, and be safe."
Post by: Scelly9 on June 02, 2013, 08:39:53 pm
What. Sources.And they couldn't even do it without the scumbags in the occupy movement without raping women, who were then told "Don't tell the cops, it'll make us look bad."This "Occupy" isn't "BANKERS ARE BAD CAPITALISM IS BAD. I WANT WHAT YOU HAVE, IT ISN'T FAIR THAT YOU HAVE MORE THAN ME!"No occupy was ever like that. Regardless, it's off topic - jumping into a thread just to be a dick about your personal hangups is not good behaviour. Stop being an asshole.
Post by: kaijyuu on June 02, 2013, 08:42:55 pm
If not, you do realize that huge wealth inequality is a bad thing, right? Another form of tyranny and oppression in its own right?
If it's jealousy to be angry at someone hoarding bread and keep it from others who are starving (or houses, if you want a non-metaphorical example), then there's nothing wrong with jealousy. You can't fault someone for being angry at people who essentially say "let them eat cake."
Post by: Foamybeard on June 02, 2013, 08:51:25 pm
Are you being sarcastic, Foamy?
If not, you do realize that huge wealth inequality is a bad thing, right? Another form of tyranny and oppression in its own right?
If it's jealousy to be angry at someone hoarding bread and keep it from others who are starving (or houses, if you want a non-metaphorical example), then there's nothing wrong with jealousy. You can't fault someone for being angry at people who essentially say "let them eat cake."
The problem was that their "We are the 99%!" Was, A) Untrue, 99% of them were Upper Middle Class kids going to expensive, Ivy League colleges, B), They were raging at the wrong people, Stockbrokers were targeted simply because they work the stock market, while the Extremely Liberal and etreamlly rich Senators and Congressmen (And Women) were ignored. C), Wealth Inequality is a bad thing, but Unless you were born into it, or married into it, you shouldn't be hated simply because you have more than someone else. D) Someone having a lot of money does not keep wealth from flowing. If there was a Finite amount of wealth in the world, there would be, but Wealth is Generated, not Static. And finaly, E) The Corporations that people were protesting never said anything resembling "Let them eat cake." Certain Corporations were targeted, while others were ignored. Apple, for example, uses Child Slave Labor in third world countries, where quite a few children end up killing themselves rather than b forced to work in those kind of conditions, yet no one protested outside of Apple's headquarters.
tl;dr, No one was hoarding the wealth, certain people didn't have as much as other people, and revolted because of it, while ignoring the actual plight of actual 99%ers.
Oh, and BTW, before anyone accuses me of being some kind of Rich-Loving ultra-rightwinger teabagger, Let me say this; I'm twenty years old, and I live with my Dad, and even though I havea job, I struggle to help pay for rent, energy, and the like because we are under (Literally) the poverty line.
Trust me, I understand the occupy movement, and what it originaly meant. But it eventually got changed to something born out of Jealousy.
Post by: Leatra on June 02, 2013, 08:56:59 pm
Spoiler: A football fan group named "Çarşı" has just "liberated" a power shovel (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: A short summary explaining why this isn't about a few trees anymore (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Translating the words of a medical student helping the wounded (click to show/hide)
Support for a general strike is increasing, no decisions taken yet.
Civilians (or civil police) passing by a street in İzmir 12 hours ago. (https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10151504647241909) You can easily see the clubs they are carrying.
Music of the revolution (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7IQUfvg3XU4)
Isn't it interesting majority of the "police" isn't wearing an uniform?
Erdoğan will be visiting Tunisia, Algeria and Morocco at 3 June 10:30 while his country is burning down. Turkish Source (http://www.bbm.gov.tr/Forms/pgMain.aspx)
There are lots of more unconfirmed deaths raining down all across Turkey. I think the confirmed number of deaths is close to 10 now. I talked to a friend in İzmir and he said police is entering apartments and attacking people in their homes. There are lots of links and information flying around in this stream channel. (http://www.livestream.com/revoltistanbul)
Revolution™ brought to you by Toshiba!Aha! It was viral advertising for Toshiba all along! Better lock the thread guys, this revolution is just another corporate stunt.Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Photos (click to show/hide)
Let's keep off-topic arguments and insults to a minimum, if not non-existent.
EDIT: A COP FIRING INTO AN APARTMENT FROM THE WINDOW (http://s1.directupload.net/images/130603/ltoyuelt.swf)
Man, cops are literally gassing houses.
Post by: misko27 on June 02, 2013, 09:02:28 pm
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on June 02, 2013, 09:04:07 pm
-A football fan group named "Çarşı" has just "liberated" a power shovel-Good god, that's hilarious. Construction Equipment of the Revolution!
Quote
Erdoğan will be visiting Tunisia, Algeria and Morocco at 3 June 10:30 while his country is burning down. Turkish Source (http://www.bbm.gov.tr/Forms/pgMain.aspx)Right, "visiting". Here's hoping he buys his Saudi Arabian retirement palace and never comes back to Turkey.
Quote
More police brutalityI'm surprised the ones in the bus are just standing there. That many people could probably tip it over if they all started rocking back and forth.
Post by: Max White on June 02, 2013, 09:11:25 pm
Even if no Turkish channel is broadcasting Leatra, the rest of the world is. The 24 hour news station here is providing pretty regular updates on what is going on. People know what is going on.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: XXSockXX on June 02, 2013, 10:31:47 pm
Also Syria has called for Erdogan to resign for repressing protests (http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2013/06/01/syria_calls_on_turkey_to_stop_repressing_peaceful_protests.html), apparently completely unfamiliar with the concept of "hypocrisy"...
Post by: misko27 on June 02, 2013, 10:48:31 pm
There have been solidarity rallys in several bigger german cities, like Cologne (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-NYmuEw5iNc) and Berlin (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M4ouI8VEKc8).Assad is probably sitting in his Palace laughing his ass off. And possibly sending off messages along the line of "WHAT DID I TELL YOU? WHAT DID I FUCKING TELL YOU? MESS WITH ME AGAIN ASSHOLE." Turkey has been VERY anti-Assad, so it's more likely Irony, and the Turkish government ends up being a hypocrite.
Also Syria has called for Erdogan to resign for repressing protests (http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2013/06/01/syria_calls_on_turkey_to_stop_repressing_peaceful_protests.html), apparently completely unfamiliar with the concept of "hypocrisy"...
Post by: Kaferian on June 02, 2013, 10:56:55 pm
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on June 02, 2013, 11:03:40 pm
Post by: Descan on June 02, 2013, 11:04:16 pm
Post by: Furtuka on June 02, 2013, 11:16:25 pm
Post by: Cheeetar on June 03, 2013, 12:50:28 am
Trust me, I understand the occupy movement, and what it originaly meant. But it eventually got changed to something born out of Jealousy.
Quit trying to derail the thread with your stupid
bullshit
Just because Occupy was mentioned, it doesn't mean you have to jump in and start an argument about it. Let this be about Turkey, okay?
Post by: Parsely on June 03, 2013, 12:54:34 am
Let this be about Turkey, okay?Please. It had already been dropped when you brought it back up.
Post by: Loud Whispers on June 03, 2013, 02:08:29 am
Assad is probably sitting in his Palace laughing his ass off. And possibly sending off messages along the line of "WHAT DID I TELL YOU? WHAT DID I FUCKING TELL YOU? MESS WITH ME AGAIN ASSHOLE." Turkey has been VERY anti-Assad, so it's more likely Irony, and the Turkish government ends up being a hypocrite.Queue the Mossad theories in 3... 2... 1...
Post by: Max White on June 03, 2013, 02:14:38 am
Did you know a Mossad operative planned out the park where this all started? Think about it...
Post by: Sigulbard on June 03, 2013, 03:17:55 am
Post by: Leatra on June 03, 2013, 03:30:32 am
People talked about how to build an EMP grenade in a Turkish live channel. They were complaining about the signal jammers police was carrying. They also talked about a protest movement tactic. According to them, one protestor should wear special construction gloves and carry a bucket full of water. Whenever a gas canister is being shot, the protestor should pick up the canister and throw it into the bucket. Water deactivates the gas bombs. A common tactic against armored police vehicles is getting a wet towel and sticking it to the exhaust. The cops inside have to leave the vehicle because of toxic gas after that. Another way to stop armored trucks is spraying paint to their cameras.
The same football fan club, Çarşı, have managed to liberated a TOMA (armored police truck capable of firing high-pressure water). I don't have the photos to support it, but I have been hearing this from everywhere.
Turkcell: We received political pressure to block communications in Turkey (English source) (http://ireport.cnn.com/docs/DOC-981808)
Erdoğan said "They are spreading lies on social media and Twitter. [We] should hang these people on the trees there" Turkish source (https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=EAVuSM6Hqm0)
A very close-up video of AKP's militia and police working together. (https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10151639158338910&) The people there are not civil police. I saw a guy wearing a black mask similar to protestors. Civil police doesn't wear masks like that.
AKP loyalists following the cops again (https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=tg0EDVFc5gI)
You can see the cops' true intention here. (https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=171574866342730) They are trying to enter a shop. You can see one of them holding a gas grenade. They are trying to open the door enough to throw the grenade in. The video ends when the police spots the recorder.
And, well, (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4wmoMwv-AwA) there are (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F6wsb76hupg) the usual (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hwzh3P-3rwg) police brutality (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KLQO0OdPG3U) I have (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S99mnpg-tbU) showed at (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QwSPQkALVFY) least 15 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RuuwBwA_cA8) videos about. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ie76ib6oxOA&feature=youtu.be)
Look at these weirdo cops attacking people randomly in İzmir. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L8khvU0E53E)
Beşiktaş is being held by protestors, the police pulled back.
Taksim was very calm but it's getting crowded again.
In case anyone is wondering about the scale of things. (http://i.imgur.com/rPLQyr4.jpg)I think the people in that bus were the arrested ones. I can see one of them trying to push the door or something.-A football fan group named "Çarşı" has just "liberated" a power shovel-Good god, that's hilarious. Construction Equipment of the Revolution!QuoteErdoğan will be visiting Tunisia, Algeria and Morocco at 3 June 10:30 while his country is burning down. Turkish Source (http://www.bbm.gov.tr/Forms/pgMain.aspx)Right, "visiting". Here's hoping he buys his Saudi Arabian retirement palace and never comes back to Turkey.QuoteMore police brutalityI'm surprised the ones in the bus are just standing there. That many people could probably tip it over if they all started rocking back and forth.
BTW, Erdoğan is talking about his visit to other countries on live right now like nothing wrong is going on with Turkey at the moment.
Has the military done anything yet?
They've been supplying the protesters and generally declared solidarity with them.Yeah. Erdoğan already threw lots of outspoken generals into prison and people are not expecting a military coup. Turkish military has conscription so the soldiers are more supportive than you might expect.
Yeah, I was just going to tell about this but you guys beat me to it. I laughed really hard after I heard this. I say our government should listen to this higher paragon of democracy!There have been solidarity rallys in several bigger german cities, like Cologne (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-NYmuEw5iNc) and Berlin (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M4ouI8VEKc8).Assad is probably sitting in his Palace laughing his ass off. And possibly sending off messages along the line of "WHAT DID I TELL YOU? WHAT DID I FUCKING TELL YOU? MESS WITH ME AGAIN ASSHOLE." Turkey has been VERY anti-Assad, so it's more likely Irony, and the Turkish government ends up being a hypocrite.
Also Syria has called for Erdogan to resign for repressing protests (http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2013/06/01/syria_calls_on_turkey_to_stop_repressing_peaceful_protests.html), apparently completely unfamiliar with the concept of "hypocrisy"...
This revolution didn't start with anything else than the people itself. There were no political parties or foreign influences involved. People occupied the park, police responded brutally. People responded the same, police kept getting worse. Everyone started puking all the hate and anger that was building up for years. It seems we were just waiting for the cops to poke the dragon.
Keeping this short, because I'm going to school in half an hour. I didn't study for the exam today. And my head is hurting like my brain wants to set itself free from the restraints of my oppressive skull. Everyone is after freedom these days.
Edit: DİSK (Confederation of Revolutionary Trade Unions of Turkey) and Eğitim-sen (Education and Science Workers' Union) have decided to drop the work for 2 days. Wednesday they will go on general strike. Full-scale strike is almost a certainty.
Post by: olemars on June 03, 2013, 05:06:08 am
Post by: Akura on June 03, 2013, 05:20:42 am
Post by: Sheb on June 03, 2013, 05:28:54 am
Leandra, don't answer to this if you fear a derail, but about the PKK leader, don't you think some kind of amnesty will be needed if peace is to be negotiated? I can understand this being popular, but it's probably a good thing if it's part of a wider peace proposal.
Post by: SethCreiyd on June 03, 2013, 05:33:10 am
Keep safe, and thanks for keeping all of us posted.
Post by: Leafsnail on June 03, 2013, 06:37:01 am
This is a really excellent aggregation of English and Turkish news though, thanks for putting it together.
Post by: Max White on June 03, 2013, 06:41:20 am
Post by: Loud Whispers on June 03, 2013, 06:57:41 am
AK-47 in COP car (http://www.odatv.com/vid_video.php?id=8BF8H)
Police planning on dressing up as rioters and shooting police
Or maybe rioters planting guns to pretend to be police masquerading as rioters shooting the police
Or maybe mossad imitating rioters...
Post by: Nadaka on June 03, 2013, 09:10:17 am
yea I didn't know about this thread.
I got this from a facebook friend who knows a few people in turkey.
Post by: XXSockXX on June 03, 2013, 11:27:28 am
They have reported the first "officially confirmed" death now, a 20 year old man was killed sunday evening in Istanbul, when a car drove into a protesting crowd.
There is a live stream of protests in Istanbul up again (http://www.n24.de/n24/Mediathek/Live/d/2926112/tuerkei-istanbul-taksim-demonstrationen-proteste.html), don't know how long this will be up, seems to be news agency material. At least the police can't go in there, with the world watching.
Media consensus seems to be that it's a huge blow for Erdogan and his aspirations to change the constitution toward an authoritarian Putin-style presidency. The protests are generally seen as a democratic expression and a positive development toward a modern civil society (as opposed to the military coups of past decades). President Gül seems to try to play it more moderate, so even Erdogan's position within the AKP appears to be weakened.
International governments have condemned the police brutality, and - much more important - stock markets are falling, which should force Erdogan to compromise, because it hurts where the money is.
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on June 03, 2013, 11:45:51 am
Post by: 10ebbor10 on June 03, 2013, 11:49:39 am
Erdogan is a fanatic, so he's not likely to compromise. If he were a rational actor things wouldn't have gotten to this point. I'll call it now, this is only going to end with him being ousted.I dunno, he seemed like a pretty decent guy just by running over the Wikipedia pages. Defending atheist rights, economic reforms, investing in education, attempted to solving the Cypriotic problems, ...
Difference between talking and acting, apparently.
Quote from: Also got a ton of awards
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
If I'd have to make a guess, I'd say he's megalomaniacal. Or maniacal.
People like this tend to have more ambition, more sympathy, and are better in inspiring people. However when things go against them, well...
Post by: XXSockXX on June 03, 2013, 12:02:44 pm
Here we see the population acting as "checks and balances" and preventing a development away from democracy, a function that in the past was filled by the kemalist military via coups (which are not great by our standards either).
It's hard to predict at the moment if these protests will force him to resign, but they will certainly force him to listen to the people and keep things democratic.
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on June 03, 2013, 12:05:53 pm
I dunno, he seemed like a pretty decent guy just by running over the Wikipedia pages. Defending atheist rights, economic reforms, investing in education, attempted to solving the Cypriotic problems, ...Talk is cheap. At the end of the day, Erdogan was elected by an Islamist political party. The AKP can deny it all they want, but their actions show it.
Difference between talking and acting, apparently.
Quote
Also got a ton of awardsNot necessarily good awards. These ones are pretty telling:
Quote
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: 10ebbor10 on June 03, 2013, 12:10:17 pm
Quote from: Wikipedia
He was banned from office and sentenced to a ten-month prison term for reciting a poem during a public address in the province of Siirt in 1997. After less than four months in prison, Erdoğan established the Justice and Development Party (AK Party) in 2001Just to show that the previous parties weren't all that clean either.
He changed to constitution to allow the president to be elected by popular vote (Approved by referendum IIRC, because the opposition boycotted the parliament). Also did numerous other reforms, including economical and sociopolitical reforms.
Just to note that you don't have to brand him as the obvious evil mad guy. The situation is way more complex than that.
Post by: GlyphGryph on June 03, 2013, 12:11:36 pm
Talk is cheap. At the end of the day, Erdogan was elected by an Islamist political party. The AKP can deny it all they want, but their actions show it.Now, now, that's not quite right. For one, he never got the support of the majority of voters, and what did support he got was thanks in large part to the governments making success in society and feeding a person's family reliant on voting for him. Most of his voters weren't Islamist, so he wasn't elected by Islamists.
It's just that most of his voters weren't supporters either.
He seems like a standard revolutionary who advocates against the system until they get into power and realize they really, really like being on top, and plan on staying there.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on June 03, 2013, 12:14:55 pm
Also interesting of note, of all parties, the AKP has the most female parliament members (Percentage and total)
Post by: Willfor on June 03, 2013, 12:17:54 pm
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on June 03, 2013, 12:23:38 pm
I think trying to convince an admitted advocate for the violent destruction of all religion that this man is not completely evil is a bit of a lost cause, personally. Though his voiced opinions may have changed since the last time I had a conversation with him on this topic.If you're talking about me, I don't know where you're getting that. I don't advocate the violent destruction of religion. I don't even really advocate the destruction of religion, I just think it's going to start dying out in the coming years as it becomes ever-less relevant to society and that this will be a good thing.
Post by: Willfor on June 03, 2013, 12:25:23 pm
Alright, then your opinion has changed since we had this conversation two years ago. Good to know! I'll stop feeling threatened when you're in a thread with me now.I think trying to convince an admitted advocate for the violent destruction of all religion that this man is not completely evil is a bit of a lost cause, personally. Though his voiced opinions may have changed since the last time I had a conversation with him on this topic.If you're talking about me, I don't know where you're getting that. I don't advocate the violent destruction of religion. I don't even really advocate the destruction of religion, I just think it's going to start dying out in the coming years as it becomes ever-less relevant to society and that this will be a good thing.
Post by: Mictlantecuhtli on June 03, 2013, 12:26:28 pm
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on June 03, 2013, 12:26:57 pm
My opinion hasn't changed. I never advocated what you say I was advocating.Alright, then your opinion has changed since we had this conversation two years ago. Good to know! I'll stop feeling threatened when you're in a thread with me now.I think trying to convince an admitted advocate for the violent destruction of all religion that this man is not completely evil is a bit of a lost cause, personally. Though his voiced opinions may have changed since the last time I had a conversation with him on this topic.If you're talking about me, I don't know where you're getting that. I don't advocate the violent destruction of religion. I don't even really advocate the destruction of religion, I just think it's going to start dying out in the coming years as it becomes ever-less relevant to society and that this will be a good thing.
Post by: Willfor on June 03, 2013, 12:30:14 pm
No, I quite clearly remember you mentioning it in one of the religion threads, just let me go back and ..My opinion hasn't changed. I never advocated what you say I was advocating.Alright, then your opinion has changed since we had this conversation two years ago. Good to know! I'll stop feeling threatened when you're in a thread with me now.I think trying to convince an admitted advocate for the violent destruction of all religion that this man is not completely evil is a bit of a lost cause, personally. Though his voiced opinions may have changed since the last time I had a conversation with him on this topic.If you're talking about me, I don't know where you're getting that. I don't advocate the violent destruction of religion. I don't even really advocate the destruction of religion, I just think it's going to start dying out in the coming years as it becomes ever-less relevant to society and that this will be a good thing.
Quote
16497 postsUghhhhhhhhhhh...........
Alright, I'll let you have this one, I have to go set up the studio in an hour.
Post by: Nadaka on June 03, 2013, 12:34:55 pm
Post by: GlyphGryph on June 03, 2013, 12:35:40 pm
Just as a note, but with 327 out of 550 seats, the AKP has a majority in parliament.Which makes their relative paucity of genuine support all the more concerning, I would think. 39%/49% of the vote (local/national) hardly seems like it should entail getting 60% of the government. And this is with the government essentially buying and coercing votes.
Also interesting of note, of all parties, the AKP has the most female parliament members (Percentage and total)
Not that this particular quirk, where groups end up running countries despite the majority of the population being opposed to them, is somehow limited to Turkey. The vote-buying is obviously a bit more of a concern.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on June 03, 2013, 12:36:46 pm
Post by: Owlbread on June 03, 2013, 12:41:19 pm
Post by: Willfor on June 03, 2013, 12:41:54 pm
I believe I know the conversation you are referring to Willfor. There was someone advocating concentration camps for the religious, but it wasn't MSH. Who it was? I don't recall. But it put me in the undesirable position of defending religion.Huh. I'm usually pretty good at remembering who said what, but since I'm pretty sure I'm not perfect, I'm going to have to reevaluate. I may try to find it later, but to be honest, I'm more curious how my brain managed to associate it with MSH than who said it originally. Possibly something like this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QyXVTLoR1lI).
Anyway, I'll stop derailing this now.
Turkey's a pretty important subject here.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on June 03, 2013, 12:44:38 pm
Post by: XXSockXX on June 03, 2013, 01:35:04 pm
The most outspoken critics of Tayyip were Islamists [last I knew]. You know, ousting the extremists in the military so they don't coup back to Islamic Republic status. So this line of conversation is all a bit confusing to me.Actually it's the complete opposite. The military has traditionally been the strongest advocate of secularism in Turkey. They are mostly Kemalists, followers of Mustafa Kemal Atatürk, who founded modern Turkey and modelled it after western states, especially France. In the past, when the military believed the government strayed away from kemalist values, they staged coups. Not to promote Islamism, but secularism.
While Turkey has a very secular constitution, huge parts of the population are still religious. Initially, when AKP was formed, it was welcomed as a democratic way to balance strong secularism and moderate Islam. However since they are the strongest party, they have become more and more conservative and are now pushing the country too much into a religious direction for the taste of many.
This is actually pretty normal in countries without a 2 party system (I think Turkey has over 70) and not necessarily something to be concerned about. You very rarely get governments with absolute majority. Vote-buying, if it exists, is something else.Just as a note, but with 327 out of 550 seats, the AKP has a majority in parliament.Which makes their relative paucity of genuine support all the more concerning, I would think. 39%/49% of the vote (local/national) hardly seems like it should entail getting 60% of the government. And this is with the government essentially buying and coercing votes.
Also interesting of note, of all parties, the AKP has the most female parliament members (Percentage and total)
Not that this particular quirk, where groups end up running countries despite the majority of the population being opposed to them, is somehow limited to Turkey. The vote-buying is obviously a bit more of a concern.
Post by: Foamybeard on June 03, 2013, 01:40:02 pm
Quit trying to derail the thread with your stupid
Just because Occupy was mentioned, it doesn't mean you have to jump in and start an argument about it. Let this be about Turkey, okay?
1) I'm not trying to derail the thread, i was engaging in discourse with someone who brought it up.
2) Stating fact isn't trying to cause an argument.
Anyway...
I don't even really advocate the destruction of religion, I just think it's going to start dying out in the coming years as it becomes ever-less relevant to society and that this will be a good thing.
Faith and Religion will never die out. It might not be "Relevant" to us, but it hasn't died out yet, and religion has existed since Man first asked "Why do the seasons turn?"
Anyway, I digress.
I'm really, really, looking forward to more news about Miklagarðr from Leatra. Reading the news from someone who is there, and not some Armchair revolutionist typing up a Article for ABC or some other news station is... Refreshing.
Post by: Owlbread on June 03, 2013, 01:41:38 pm
Post by: 10ebbor10 on June 03, 2013, 01:42:33 pm
Besides, isn't Turkey basically a 2 party system? You got 2 big parties, and then some spare change.
Depends. I will not talk about this, since it's a derail.I don't even really advocate the destruction of religion, I just think it's going to start dying out in the coming years as it becomes ever-less relevant to society and that this will be a good thing.Faith and Religion will never die out. It might not be "Relevant" to us, but it hasn't died out yet, and religion has existed since Man first asked "Why do the seasons turn?"
Post by: Nadaka on June 03, 2013, 01:45:22 pm
It is when you masquerade a blatant falsehood as a fact.Quit trying to derail the thread with your stupid
Just because Occupy was mentioned, it doesn't mean you have to jump in and start an argument about it. Let this be about Turkey, okay?
1) I'm not trying to derail the thread, i was engaging in discourse with someone who brought it up.
2) Stating fact isn't trying to cause an argument.
Post by: XXSockXX on June 03, 2013, 01:47:49 pm
Well, usually the multiparty system requires a coalition with a majority. Unless you work with FPTP, which is a terrible system.A coalition is only needed if no party has an absolute majority. With 326 out of 550 seats you have an absolute majority (more than half of the seats) and don't need a coalition.
Besides, isn't Turkey basically a 2 party system? You got 2 big parties, and then some spare change.
There are 4 parties currently in parliament in Turkey (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_political_parties_in_Turkey), and many minor parties not currently in parliament due to the 10% threshold.
Post by: Mictlantecuhtli on June 03, 2013, 01:57:57 pm
While Turkey has a very secular constitution, huge parts of the population are still religious. Initially, when AKP was formed, it was welcomed as a democratic way to balance strong secularism and moderate Islam. However since they are the strongest party, they have become more and more conservative and are now pushing the country too much into a religious direction for the taste of many.
Wasn't it just last week that Islamists were protesting Turkey's [Erdogan's] support of the Syrian rebels? I swear I've heard all sorts of things reported from Turkey about anti-Erdogan sentiment coming more from the fringe right than anywhere else. As always, could easily be explained by the filter of Turkish media applying to outside reporting.
Turkey may not be a police state, but it's definitely a repressive secular government, no matter who heads it at which time. Just got to look back a decade or two to see the precedent laid before them. Treatment of dissenters has always been heavy handed and misguided in long-term thinking. A bit alarming considering all the NATO arms and money they get.
Just hope Erdogan capitulates. He can still be rich and powerful even without his post, and he knows it. Wouldn't be a bad time to restore some faith in their democratic government, either. Dude's been around too long and he shouldn't be spreading gasoline on an already dry tinderbundle. Turkey is still a democracy but it wouldn't be too hard to see a street protest taken over by the extreme elements and go the way of Egypt.
Edit:
I have a proposition: Turkish people are dissatisfied with their government, Greek people are dissatisfied with their government. Say fuck it, combine nations, and see if the resulting parliament will be more or less corrupt than before. I'd hedge bets that it'd be marginally better. The nationalist parties can join forces too, gee, everyone will be happy.
Post by: XXSockXX on June 03, 2013, 02:07:37 pm
Wasn't it just last week that Islamists were protesting Turkey's [Erdogan's] support of the Syrian rebels?Erdogan may be fundamentalist, he's not islamist in a radical way, there are people much more islamist than he is, who think he is too moderate.
Turkey is still a democracy but it wouldn't be too hard to see a street protest taken over by the extreme elements and go the way of Egypt.No. The situation in Turkey is different, it is much more westernized, democratic and secular than Egypt has ever been.
Post by: Mictlantecuhtli on June 03, 2013, 02:12:45 pm
No. The situation in Turkey is different, it is much more westernized, democratic and secular than Egypt has ever been.
The extremists in Egypt [a tourist destination, ally of US, major beneficiary of US funds] were ostracized and found an umbrella group many Americans hadn't
I have more faith in the Turks but just because they have an established democracy doesn't make it any less vulnerable to the same caveats of others in the ME; the influence of extremes.
By all means, Erdogan is a dick, but I hope this larger protest doesn't get hijacked by people with ulterior motives.
Post by: XXSockXX on June 03, 2013, 02:24:02 pm
The extremists in Egypt [a tourist destination, ally of US, major beneficiary of US funds] were ostracized and found an umbrella group many Americans hadn't cared about until the revolution where they came out of the shadows with their rural support. Now we have a Sharia Law constitution in draft.Just because Americans don't care or know about something doesn't mean it does not exist (no offense intended). If you live in Europe (especially in a country with immigrants from the region) and follow the news you get a much clearer picture. There are many huge differences between Turkey and Egypt, Turkey has it's own particular set of problems, but there is no such thing as a strong islamist movement (as in Sharia-Law-type-radical), in Turkey. Actually I would almost compare it to the situation in the US, where "Middle America" is strongly religious whereas the coasts (in Turkey the urban centers) are much less so.
Post by: Foamybeard on June 03, 2013, 02:32:40 pm
It is when you masquerade a blatant falsehood as a fact.Quit trying to derail the thread with your stupid
Just because Occupy was mentioned, it doesn't mean you have to jump in and start an argument about it. Let this be about Turkey, okay?
1) I'm not trying to derail the thread, i was engaging in discourse with someone who brought it up.
2) Stating fact isn't trying to cause an argument.
Alright, so occupiers were not shitting on cop cars, nor did they have to have separate areas for women who were afraid of being raped because there was several incidents, right? And the fact that almost all of the Occupiers were in the Upper Middle Class (Or even the Upper Class Themselves). No one protested outside of John Kerry's house, despite the fact that he put up laws to punish the wealthy (Heavy Luxury Taxes) and then avoided them (Leaving his Yacht outside of Massachusets to avoid paying the taxes he set up). No one protested outside of Martha's Vineyard, where the true 1% go. (Nancy Pelosi, Obama, Kerry again.)
People only protested outside people who weren't guilty of being the 1%, such as stockbrokers, or people who worked for certain companies deemed unworthy to have profits. That is why I disagree with Occupy in America, because it was hypocritical, with people picking and choosing who was unworthy.
You can't fight fact by saying "THATS A LIE" and "This is how I feel!"
Post by: Digital Hellhound on June 03, 2013, 02:41:09 pm
As this probably will have no effect and just clutter the thread up more, sorry in advance.
Post by: Mictlantecuhtli on June 03, 2013, 02:42:52 pm
People only protested outside people who weren't guilty of being the 1%, such as stockbrokers, or people who worked for certain companies deemed unworthy to have profits. That is why I disagree with Occupy in America, because it was hypocritical, with people picking and choosing who was unworthy.
Good thing there's a topic to complain about it. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=93676.0) I promise. I've done it. Now, back to the topic.
Post by: Foamybeard on June 03, 2013, 02:43:03 pm
Nobody gives a shit about your Occupy bull. You can use the old Occupy Wall Street thread for it, okay? That goes for anyone who even for a moment considers replying to either side here.
If this has no effect and just clutters the thread up more, sorry in advance.
He man, I didn't bring it up. I responded to someone's comment. Don't just give me shit because I'm the only one who isn't indoctrinated to see clearly.
Post by: Owlbread on June 03, 2013, 02:43:52 pm
He man, I didn't bring it up. I responded to someone's comment. Don't just give me shit because I'm the only one who isn't indoctrinated to see clearly.
Don't speak to He-Man like that. He's a Master of the Universe and he can do what he wants. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7yeA7a0uS3A)
Post by: Zangi on June 03, 2013, 02:46:18 pm
Considering it... it is not too surprising that Egypt and others were 'blind-sided' by non-secularists. The American approved governments were secular... and it stands to reason that some of them were repressive to Islam to continue being secular/in America's good graces?The extremists in Egypt [a tourist destination, ally of US, major beneficiary of US funds] were ostracized and found an umbrella group many Americans hadn't cared about until the revolution where they came out of the shadows with their rural support. Now we have a Sharia Law constitution in draft.Just because Americans don't care or know about something doesn't mean it does not exist (no offense intended). If you live in Europe (especially in a country with immigrants from the region) and follow the news you get a much clearer picture. There are many huge differences between Turkey and Egypt, Turkey has it's own particular set of problems, but there is no such thing as a strong islamist movement (as in Sharia-Law-type-radical), in Turkey. Actually I would almost compare it to the situation in the US, where "Middle America" is strongly religious whereas the coasts (in Turkey the urban centers) are much less so.
Heck, Mubarak of Egypt seemed to be pretty unpopular cause of the fact that he fostered diplomatic relations with Israel...
Of course, Turkey may be something else altogether. Our B12 liaison Leatra has inferred that people are mad about Turkey becoming too non-secular...
And you folks are pointing out that Erodogan/Turkey has been moderate/secular and getting flack for that. Perhaps... the fellow may have been trying to please everyone? Or perhaps not.
I lean toward Leatra's view of the situation at this time, since I don't know jack.
Post by: Foamybeard on June 03, 2013, 03:02:13 pm
He man, I didn't bring it up. I responded to someone's comment. Don't just give me shit because I'm the only one who isn't indoctrinated to see clearly.
Don't speak to He-Man like that. He's a Master of the Universe and he can do what he wants. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7yeA7a0uS3A)
Seriously, I just choked on my dinner when I read that.
+ 9001 respect.
But don't worry, I'll drop it, so that there won't be an argument.
Post by: Loud Whispers on June 03, 2013, 03:26:23 pm
I dunno, he seemed like a pretty decent guy just by running over the Wikipedia pages. Defending atheist rights, economic reforms, investing in education, attempted to solving the Cypriotic problems, ...One of the reasons some are protesting is that he made it illegal to drink during the night, enforcing Muslim doctrine on the country. You don't touch booze, it's pure freedom.
Erdogan is a fanatic, so he's not likely to compromise. If he were a rational actor things wouldn't have gotten to this point. I'll call it now, this is only going to end with him being ousted.Yet will his ousting just result in a more fundamentalist party being put into power such as in Libya?
Post by: Sheb on June 03, 2013, 03:59:18 pm
Likewise, if Erdogan calls for new elections, he's likely to win them again and we're back to square one.
And anyway, it seems the protesters are demanding a wider systemic change, with an end to servile media and authoritarian style of governance. Not the kind of things you get by changing whoever is sitting in Başbakanlık Konutu.
Post by: GlyphGryph on June 03, 2013, 04:39:29 pm
Post by: Akura on June 03, 2013, 04:52:17 pm
How are the Kurds responding to the protests, out of curiosity?Apparently they're joining in, and the other groups are welcoming them, if some of Leatra's pics are any indication.
I saw CNN's coverage of it today. They sure know how to understate. I'm almost afraid to see Fox News' take on it.
Post by: Parsely on June 03, 2013, 06:08:50 pm
Yes, someone asked about that earlier. Leantra said that the Kurds were joining the protestors and the protestors were welcoming them, just like everyone else thats fighting against the Erdogan.How are the Kurds responding to the protests, out of curiosity?Apparently they're joining in, and the other groups are welcoming them, if some of Leatra's pics are any indication.
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on June 03, 2013, 08:39:28 pm
No. Everybody keeps saying this, but it's completely illogical. Erdogan and his people are the fundamentalist party. They're already in power and they're on the more religious end of the plausible leadership in Turkey. Him being ousted all but guarantees a more secular replacement.Erdogan is a fanatic, so he's not likely to compromise. If he were a rational actor things wouldn't have gotten to this point. I'll call it now, this is only going to end with him being ousted.Yet will his ousting just result in a more fundamentalist party being put into power such as in Libya?
Libya was controlled by a more insane but ultimately secular dictator, leaving the potential for an Islamist takeover.
Post by: XXSockXX on June 03, 2013, 09:46:52 pm
Post by: Leatra on June 04, 2013, 12:26:14 am
Spoiler: A protestor found a Kalashnikov inside a police vehicle (click to show/hide)
German media are now reporting a second "official" casualty, according to turkish channel NTV and provincial authorities a 22 year old man died after being shot by "an unknown person" during a protest in Hatay province.Yes, an "unknown person" shot him with a firearm... Also another man died in Hatay after getting shot in the head with a gas canister.
Spoiler: This is where he got killed... with an "unknown" person (click to show/hide)
Police attacks a passer-by (https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=197966627020415) in a relatively calm street. Police asks the people around the leave the area.
You can see people bravely throwing back active gas canisters here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fe20VQ3786U)
Doctors are trying to help the wounded. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=98LztLwIbdM)
Police burned the trees at Beşiktaş with gas. People called asked help from the firefighters, of course they didn't come. Even with all that gas, people put out the fire themselves.
Spoiler: Police are hiding their identities (click to show/hide)
Police is using social media too. They are spreading lies and impersonating protestors with calls to help like "We need help in Gümüşsuyu" and then they are arresting the people who come to help. Civil police also infiltrates protestor groups.
Protestors are using various digital maps; marking intense areas, first aid points, safe buildings, buildings with wi-fi, and focus protest areas.
Police is using helicopters to spray down gas, this was reported from Beşiktaş.
An interesting duo from the protest area. (http://www.59saniye.com/direnisten-gulumseten-ikili/)
Translation
Right:Lots of interesting things are happening.
Left: Delicious, this one was delicious. They made this one delicious
R: Yeah, they made this one delicious. It got us high. It was a strong one.
L: I congratulate you. I congratulate the police department for this tasty cocktail.
R: *waves* which channel is this?
L: It's Show TV. (one of the most famous TV channels in Turkey)
R: Show TV?
L: Yeah, but this one is spelled with a "Ş"
R: Where is it being broadcasted?
L: It's being broadcasted at nowhere. We are just recording it with our friends together. Oh, and I'm from the police. And I'm arresting you now.
R: No, don't say that.
L: Come with me now.
Spoiler: Photos (click to show/hide)
Leandra, don't answer to this if you fear a derail, but about the PKK leader, don't you think some kind of amnesty will be needed if peace is to be negotiated? I can understand this being popular, but it's probably a good thing if it's part of a wider peace proposal.I would be okay with it if PKK was going to be completely dissolved. If PKK leader Abdullah Öcalan is released, I'm pretty sure he will go back to running things. Also, everyone wants him to be punished for all the soldiers and civilians he killed, and I think it's an understandable demand. There are lots of people who lost their relatives to PKK.
Çarşı sounds like the most awesome football fan club ever. I kindof want to start supporting their team out of solidarity.Thanks. They joined lots of protests before this. They are not really just a football fan club anymore. I respect them and I'm the supporter of their rival football club.
This is a really excellent aggregation of English and Turkish news though, thanks for putting it together.
OH SHITIf a protestor planted a gun there, you can be sure that he would be massacred by the mob for spreading lies.
AK-47 in COP car (http://www.odatv.com/vid_video.php?id=8BF8H)
Police planning on dressing up as rioters and shooting police
Or maybe rioters planting guns to pretend to be police masquerading as rioters shooting the police
Or maybe mossad imitating rioters...
He didn't invest in education. He invested in Islamic school where children are brainwashed and forced to memorize Qur'an passages. He turns normal schools into Islamic schools. He gives academic advantages to people who graduated from Islamic schools.Erdogan is a fanatic, so he's not likely to compromise. If he were a rational actor things wouldn't have gotten to this point. I'll call it now, this is only going to end with him being ousted.I dunno, he seemed like a pretty decent guy just by running over the Wikipedia pages. Defending atheist rights, economic reforms, investing in education, attempted to solving the Cypriotic problems, ...
Difference between talking and acting, apparently.Quote from: Also got a ton of awardsSpoiler (click to show/hide)
If I'd have to make a guess, I'd say he's megalomaniacal. Or maniacal.
People like this tend to have more ambition, more sympathy, and are better in inspiring people. However when things go against them, well...
He didn't defend the rights of atheists. If he did, the mob who murdered 37 Alevis and atheists (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sivas_massacre) would be punished for it, not walking free. He is anti-atheist and anti-Alevi.
He is a fanatic, and he needs to be stopped. His Sharia agenda will turn Turkey into a hellhole if not. People are chanting "Fuck Erdoğan" for a reason. We don't want rigged elections anymore. We are talking about someone who said "They are spreading lies on social media and Twitter. [We] should hang these people on the trees there"
This is true. Army never wanted fundamental Islam here. That's why Erdoğan is throwing lots of generals into prisons.The most outspoken critics of Tayyip were Islamists [last I knew]. You know, ousting the extremists in the military so they don't coup back to Islamic Republic status. So this line of conversation is all a bit confusing to me.Actually it's the complete opposite. The military has traditionally been the strongest advocate of secularism in Turkey. They are mostly Kemalists, followers of Mustafa Kemal Atatürk, who founded modern Turkey and modelled it after western states, especially France. In the past, when the military believed the government strayed away from kemalist values, they staged coups. Not to promote Islamism, but secularism.
While Turkey has a very secular constitution, huge parts of the population are still religious. Initially, when AKP was formed, it was welcomed as a democratic way to balance strong secularism and moderate Islam. However since they are the strongest party, they have become more and more conservative and are now pushing the country too much into a religious direction for the taste of many.This is actually pretty normal in countries without a 2 party system (I think Turkey has over 70) and not necessarily something to be concerned about. You very rarely get governments with absolute majority. Vote-buying, if it exists, is something else.Just as a note, but with 327 out of 550 seats, the AKP has a majority in parliament.Which makes their relative paucity of genuine support all the more concerning, I would think. 39%/49% of the vote (local/national) hardly seems like it should entail getting 60% of the government. And this is with the government essentially buying and coercing votes.
Also interesting of note, of all parties, the AKP has the most female parliament members (Percentage and total)
Not that this particular quirk, where groups end up running countries despite the majority of the population being opposed to them, is somehow limited to Turkey. The vote-buying is obviously a bit more of a concern.
I don't know much about USA politics but there are lots of political parties here. There are strong parties representing the voice of nationalists, Islamists, communists, kemalists, Kurds, etc. The most popular third party got %13 of the votes. Also AKP always resorts to vote-buying in every election.
How are the Kurds responding to the protests, out of curiosity?They are joining the protests. Some are making PKK propaganda, some are genuinely believing in the cause.
I have to leave for school. I have 2 exams today. I'll keep posting and responding after I come back.
Post by: Owlbread on June 04, 2013, 05:59:11 am
Post by: Leatra on June 04, 2013, 10:11:26 am
Do Mr. Abdullah Gul's messages have any weight to them? (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/turkey/10096060/Turkey-protests-message-received-says-President-Abdullah-Gul.html) He's an Islamist just like Mr. Erdogan, isn't he?He is an Islamist indeed but he is more subtle when it comes to it I suppose. It seems like he is now playing the good cop in this scenario. For a puppet who just signs the papers Erdoğan throws at him, he is acting bravely. Please don't fall for the mistake of believing that he is neutral. Still, I don't think his relations with Erdoğan isn't as good as it used to be. I believe Gül's attitude is either "Tayyip, let's ease up on the dictator throttle a bit bro. This is way too much" or "Tayyip, I'm gonna be the good cop and see if they fall for it. Wanna make a bet?"
While Turkey has a very secular constitution, huge parts of the population are still religious. Initially, when AKP was formed, it was welcomed as a democratic way to balance strong secularism and moderate Islam. However since they are the strongest party, they have become more and more conservative and are now pushing the country too much into a religious direction for the taste of many.
Wasn't it just last week that Islamists were protesting Turkey's [Erdogan's] support of the Syrian rebels? I swear I've heard all sorts of things reported from Turkey about anti-Erdogan sentiment coming more from the fringe right than anywhere else. As always, could easily be explained by the filter of Turkish media applying to outside reporting.
Turkey may not be a police state, but it's definitely a repressive secular government, no matter who heads it at which time. Just got to look back a decade or two to see the precedent laid before them. Treatment of dissenters has always been heavy handed and misguided in long-term thinking. A bit alarming considering all the NATO arms and money they get.
Just hope Erdogan capitulates. He can still be rich and powerful even without his post, and he knows it. Wouldn't be a bad time to restore some faith in their democratic government, either. Dude's been around too long and he shouldn't be spreading gasoline on an already dry tinderbundle. Turkey is still a democracy but it wouldn't be too hard to see a street protest taken over by the extreme elements and go the way of Egypt.
Edit:
I have a proposition: Turkish people are dissatisfied with their government, Greek people are dissatisfied with their government. Say fuck it, combine nations, and see if the resulting parliament will be more or less corrupt than before. I'd hedge bets that it'd be marginally better. The nationalist parties can join forces too, gee, everyone will be happy.
People were protesting the support for Syrian rebels after some rebels bombed the shit out of Reyhanlı and got around 150 people killed. Erdoğan tried to make it look like it was Essad doing it. It was not only Islamists who were protesting.
Maybe Turkey seems secular when compared to Middle East but non-Muslims are still being oppressed. I know lots of people keeping their true beliefs secret. It's not enough.
I know you weren't serious but combining Greece and Turkey seems like a great "What If?" scenario to write a book on. I love Greek people and I know many people here who loves them but I'm sure racist Turks and racist Greeks would turn the streets into red in a matter of hours.
He is clever. He knows the Turkish people won't put up with his Sharia bullshit. But I assure you, he is "Islamizing" the country slowly. For example, he can't outlaw alcohol outright, so he keeps increasing the taxes and puts up more harsh laws. More than %50 of the money we pay for beer goes to government and he will be killing this income if he puts harsher laws.Wasn't it just last week that Islamists were protesting Turkey's [Erdogan's] support of the Syrian rebels?Erdogan may be fundamentalist, he's not islamist in a radical way, there are people much more islamist than he is, who think he is too moderate.
"I am your Liaison from the Bay 12!"Considering it... it is not too surprising that Egypt and others were 'blind-sided' by non-secularists. The American approved governments were secular... and it stands to reason that some of them were repressive to Islam to continue being secular/in America's good graces?The extremists in Egypt [a tourist destination, ally of US, major beneficiary of US funds] were ostracized and found an umbrella group many Americans hadn't cared about until the revolution where they came out of the shadows with their rural support. Now we have a Sharia Law constitution in draft.Just because Americans don't care or know about something doesn't mean it does not exist (no offense intended). If you live in Europe (especially in a country with immigrants from the region) and follow the news you get a much clearer picture. There are many huge differences between Turkey and Egypt, Turkey has it's own particular set of problems, but there is no such thing as a strong islamist movement (as in Sharia-Law-type-radical), in Turkey. Actually I would almost compare it to the situation in the US, where "Middle America" is strongly religious whereas the coasts (in Turkey the urban centers) are much less so.
Heck, Mubarak of Egypt seemed to be pretty unpopular cause of the fact that he fostered diplomatic relations with Israel...
Of course, Turkey may be something else altogether. Our B12 liaison Leatra has inferred that people are mad about Turkey becoming too non-secular...
And you folks are pointing out that Erodogan/Turkey has been moderate/secular and getting flack for that. Perhaps... the fellow may have been trying to please everyone? Or perhaps not.
I lean toward Leatra's view of the situation at this time, since I don't know jack.
The chances of Erdoğan being the son of Satan is higher than the chances of him being a moderate/secularist. People, please don't compare Turkey to Middle East just because this is a Muslim country. Compare Turkey to the political history of itself. You can see Erdoğan turning normal schools into Islamic schools. The dude is building mosques and erecting long minarets everywhere. I don't think he is just compensating for something.
But really, his politics don't matter anymore. He can start turning Turkey into an atheistic country and punishing the mosque-goers and I wouldn't give a rat's ass. He is corrupt. He is the most corrupted politician I have ever saw in Turkey. That's why people want him gone. There are Islamists protesting him now too.
Leantra, did the protesters start emitting demands or something? I've seen the head of the secular opposition (CHP) has called for Erdogan to resign, but that seemed more self-serving than anything else. Moreover, the AKP did win elections, and the CHP lost them. No other party got the legitimacy to take over.There are no statements or demands right now. Everyone agrees that AKP has to resign and the most popular chant seems to be "AKP, RESIGN!". I have seen people going as far as to demanding Erdoğan's head. I think the majority wants elections with the exclusion of AKP but like I said, no stated demands or anything like that.
Likewise, if Erdogan calls for new elections, he's likely to win them again and we're back to square one.
And anyway, it seems the protesters are demanding a wider systemic change, with an end to servile media and authoritarian style of governance. Not the kind of things you get by changing whoever is sitting in Başbakanlık Konutu.
If Erdoğan called for new elections, he would probably lose but he would still have a say about what's going on. There is a chance that he might win because I'm expecting anything from him at this point. Rigged elections is nothing new to us and vote-buying tendencies of AKP is known by everyone. Anyway, people don't just want earlier elections, they want AKP to cease existing and dissolve into nothingness.
Leatra cancels collect information: fell asleep from exhaustion
Taksim is very crowded right now.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on June 04, 2013, 10:18:07 am
Well, I wouldn't call the AKP a fundamentalist party. Ultimately, it's got more similarities to the European Catholitical-Democratic parties at the end of the 19the century.No. Everybody keeps saying this, but it's completely illogical. Erdogan and his people are the fundamentalist party. They're already in power and they're on the more religious end of the plausible leadership in Turkey. Him being ousted all but guarantees a more secular replacement.Erdogan is a fanatic, so he's not likely to compromise. If he were a rational actor things wouldn't have gotten to this point. I'll call it now, this is only going to end with him being ousted.Yet will his ousting just result in a more fundamentalist party being put into power such as in Libya?
Libya was controlled by a more insane but ultimately secular dictator, leaving the potential for an Islamist takeover.
Don't simplify this to a black and white fundamentalist-secularist issue. That detracts from the real problems, and serves no good purpose.
On a side note, the AKP must have a really good PR department. Because well, it's hard to find negative commentary of it's actions (at least, those predating the riots).
Post by: Leatra on June 04, 2013, 10:24:09 am
Spoiler: don't click if you got a weak stomach, I'm serious (click to show/hide)
Post by: Morrigi on June 04, 2013, 10:25:16 am
Post by: Leafsnail on June 04, 2013, 10:26:22 am
On a side note, the AKP must have a really good PR department. Because well, it's hard to find negative commentary of it's actions (at least, those predating the riots).That's probably related to all those journalists they had arrested.
Post by: Sheb on June 04, 2013, 10:30:15 am
I'm used to police brutality, but I must say the Turksih cops seems especially tughish and ill-trained. This is no way to manage a protest dumbass, you're just making more and more people hate you.
Leandra: As for AKP loosing, do you have any idea of the sentiment outside the cities, the in the traditional AKP stronghold? With the media black-out, I'd expect a lot of older rural people to have no idea what's going on and thinking the protesters are rioters that should be put down. Could be worth launching a "call your grandma" campaign.
10ebbor: The AKP does have a pretty good record economically I guess. And putting down the generals was a good thing too. More importantly, for most Western pundits Turkey is Muslim, and the AKP is just giving in to the wish of the people that were oppressed by a secularist past. Plus, Turkey is doing really good when you compare it to the Middle-East, as most people do.
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on June 04, 2013, 10:35:31 am
And all the ones ultimately working for them in some way or another.On a side note, the AKP must have a really good PR department. Because well, it's hard to find negative commentary of it's actions (at least, those predating the riots).That's probably related to all those journalists they had arrested.
Post by: kingfisher1112 on June 04, 2013, 10:39:54 am
A) Do you think a revolution is possible, and would you take part in one?
B) If A is yes, would you want any foreign support to overthrow the government? Do you think this would just cause trouble?
C) What's your stance? Are there any groups or factions in this chaos or Gov and People?
D) How do you think this is going to end?
E) What do you think the fallout for the region will be? More revolutions/protesting?
I'm sorry, I just really want to know. This is an opportunity for us all to be educated by an inside source. It's so rare for things like this to happen. But anyway, I support you man. Keep your head down, don't take risks.
Post by: Parsely on June 04, 2013, 11:36:47 am
Post by: Sheb on June 04, 2013, 11:41:31 am
Post by: kingfisher1112 on June 04, 2013, 11:47:02 am
It would collapse in minutes. Still, maybe we should make a thread. " What If Bay12 Made A Country?"Leatra founded the first Bay12 Embassy out of his apartment.So, an embassy for many, many nations?
Actually, I wonder what would happen if every B12 forum member banded together and founded their own country, and it somehow got national recognition.
Post by: Parsely on June 04, 2013, 12:01:36 pm
Doing it.It would collapse in minutes. Still, maybe we should make a thread. " What If Bay12 Made A Country?"Leatra founded the first Bay12 Embassy out of his apartment.So, an embassy for many, many nations?
Actually, I wonder what would happen if every B12 forum member banded together and founded their own country, and it somehow got national recognition.
Post by: Askot Bokbondeler on June 04, 2013, 12:46:49 pm
Post by: Slayerhero90 on June 04, 2013, 12:48:15 pm
do we really need another thread dedicated to magma memes?There aren't any yet! Because no. Not in this part of Bay 12.
Post by: The Darkling Wolf on June 04, 2013, 12:51:13 pm
Nah, this is the lower boards. It'll be a thread dedicated to facepunching memes.do we really need another thread dedicated to magma memes?There aren't any yet! Because no. Not in this part of Bay 12.
Post by: Slayerhero90 on June 04, 2013, 12:53:40 pm
That has happened already.Nah, this is the lower boards. It'll be a thread dedicated to facepunching memes.do we really need another thread dedicated to magma memes?There aren't any yet! Because no. Not in this part of Bay 12.
Post by: Morrigi on June 04, 2013, 12:58:21 pm
Post by: Scoops Novel on June 04, 2013, 12:59:29 pm
Post by: Askot Bokbondeler on June 04, 2013, 01:01:31 pm
http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/greek-leftists-march-in-support-of-turkish-protesters.aspx?pageID=238&nID=48150&NewsCatID=351
http://www.b92.net/eng/news/comments.php?nav_id=86492
that's happening more or less all over europe
Post by: Haspen on June 04, 2013, 01:12:52 pm
I have no idea why we're late, though.
Post by: Ochita on June 04, 2013, 01:13:32 pm
Damn that face wound looks nasty, kinda says something about the police if they're doing things like that. As if they just dont really care at all about the lives of the protestors, although that's already been established with the various deaths..
So yeah, be careful.
As an aside, it is somewhat good to see solidarity (Am I even using it right) coming in from places, like Greece. I mean it should create pressure on the Turkish government, right?
Also over here in the east of england, we got coverage of it yesterday, from the bbc news channel so it not being frontpage on the website is somewhat weird.
Post by: Askot Bokbondeler on June 04, 2013, 01:35:54 pm
Post by: Ochita on June 04, 2013, 01:38:29 pm
I.. Did not know that. Still, if the government does get disposed, then perhaps relations would be lightened.
Post by: Scoops Novel on June 04, 2013, 02:18:20 pm
Post by: Owlbread on June 04, 2013, 03:08:24 pm
What's happening in Greece over this? How is everyone's new's coverage? It's not even front-page news on the BBC website right now.
Tonight I saw in Leatra's picture a man whose eyeball had been shot out with a rubber bullet or tear gas cannister. The BBC on the other hand spent about an hour today, or perhaps a bit more than that, reporting the anniversary of the Queen's coronation.
Post by: Nadaka on June 04, 2013, 03:09:37 pm
Post by: GlyphGryph on June 04, 2013, 03:10:20 pm
I'm the only one talking about this in my entire circle in Facebook - everyone else is just passing it over. No one cares among the many people I know except for me, and despite my images and videos the few who I can get to talk about it say "It's not a big deal".
Post by: Scoops Novel on June 04, 2013, 03:16:07 pm
Post by: GlyphGryph on June 04, 2013, 03:23:12 pm
There are some mentions in the "word" section, this today is actually the first day I've seen it mentioned at all there despite checking multiple times.
Post by: Myroc on June 04, 2013, 03:23:43 pm
Light up the night. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gkLvpt9Z3fA)
Post by: GlyphGryph on June 04, 2013, 03:25:40 pm
Proof: Sunscreen reduces skin aging
Vinegar could save thousands of lives
Plane geeks help feds fight terror
Why Cheerios ad makes folks angry
Senator survives on deserted island
Hiding in storm, they died in drain
Government targets 'vampire fish'
Inmate: Arias 'an amazing person' HLN
Wal-Mart's low wages cost taxpayers
Why the new Xbox still won't fix TV
HIV discovery almost didn't happen
Kim and Kanye's baby: Easton West?
Report: Nike to make Tiger even richer
Bus driver fired over Facebook post
For sale: 1 BR nuclear missile silo
Major characters die on TV's hits
Post by: Owlbread on June 04, 2013, 03:26:42 pm
Post by: 10ebbor10 on June 04, 2013, 03:27:12 pm
Edit: So yeah, not much attention at all.
Post by: XXSockXX on June 04, 2013, 03:29:48 pm
Post by: Dutchling on June 04, 2013, 03:30:34 pm
Here's CNNs top stories:Still not as bad as when they reported on the tragic events in the lives of some kids who were found guilty of raping a girl. Their young and promising lives were ruined D:
Proof: Sunscreen reduces skin aging
Vinegar could save thousands of lives
Plane geeks help feds fight terror
Why Cheerios ad makes folks angry
Senator survives on deserted island
Hiding in storm, they died in drain
Government targets 'vampire fish'
Inmate: Arias 'an amazing person' HLN
Wal-Mart's low wages cost taxpayers
Why the new Xbox still won't fix TV
HIV discovery almost didn't happen
Kim and Kanye's baby: Easton West?
Report: Nike to make Tiger even richer
Bus driver fired over Facebook post
For sale: 1 BR nuclear missile silo
Major characters die on TV's hits
Post by: Scoops Novel on June 04, 2013, 03:36:59 pm
Post by: ragnarok97071 on June 04, 2013, 03:59:05 pm
I should probably post to watch this, huh?
Also stay safe, man. Your posts have been very informative about this whole thing.
Also: Good lord that picture @_@
Post by: RedWarrior0 on June 04, 2013, 04:09:37 pm
Post by: Max White on June 04, 2013, 06:00:56 pm
Actually, I wonder what would happen if every B12 forum member banded together and founded their own country, and it somehow got national recognition.We actually have a very accurate computer simulation of the outcome. It is called Dwarf Fortress.
Post by: misko27 on June 04, 2013, 06:54:50 pm
Post by: Foamybeard on June 04, 2013, 10:03:22 pm
The Times is devoted a whole page to it today, and one of the Opinion Articles was on it.
Heh... sorry for asking this, but which times? There are way too many news papers called the times... NY times, LA times, The Times...
Post by: SalmonGod on June 04, 2013, 10:12:49 pm
Similar to others here, no one I know has said a word about this. I doubt the majority know it's happening.
Post by: Parsely on June 04, 2013, 10:17:22 pm
I noticed this morning there were claims that Facebook erased a group that was being actively used by thousands of Turkish protesters for organizing and information.Is that true? Why would Facebook do that? It doesn't really make sense, unless everyone is suddenly joining a conspiracy against the Turkish protesters. >_<
Similar to others here, no one I know has said a word about this. I doubt the majority know it's happening.
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on June 04, 2013, 10:20:56 pm
Post by: SalmonGod on June 04, 2013, 10:21:46 pm
For example, I know there's a group about breastfeeding that complains about being tampered with a lot. I have a couple female friends who share their posts a lot. One of the points they frequently make is they'll put two photos side-by-side; one a very modest photo of a women breastfeeding that doesn't even show anything other than a small amount of cleaveage, and another a very racy photo by some under-age girl. Facebook will censor one but not the other. Guess which one.
Anyway, that's getting kind of off-topic. Point is it's believable that Facebook would be tampering with stuff related to events in Turkey.
Post by: Max White on June 04, 2013, 10:24:11 pm
Post by: Parsely on June 04, 2013, 10:25:39 pm
Facebook likes to be family friendly social media. Controversy is something they tend to avoid for the most part.That makes sense.
Post by: misko27 on June 04, 2013, 11:27:17 pm
All times I refer to are the Present day. As for which Times i refer to, I refer to the most relevant one to me, that is, the New York Times.The Times is devoted a whole page to it today, and one of the Opinion Articles was on it.
Heh... sorry for asking this, but which times? There are way too many news papers called the times... NY times, LA times, The Times...
Post by: King DZA on June 05, 2013, 12:48:36 am
Guess the most I can offer from my current location are my best wishes to the brave and hope for a positive outcome.
Post by: Spaghetti7 on June 05, 2013, 03:25:49 am
That, and the only deaths they even mention are only ones confirmed by "officials": The man shot by an unidentified gunman and one who was killed when a car drove through a protest. Note the lack of anything to do with the police there.
But good luck Leatra, it looks pretty nasty out there.
Post by: Sheb on June 05, 2013, 03:53:50 am
Post by: SalmonGod on June 05, 2013, 08:29:00 am
Quote
#OccupyGezi : Tonight is one of the holy nights for the Muslims, Kandil. Some newspapers try to pump provocations claiming that the protestors will raid mosques. As a precaution, the protestors started a campaign and they have been offering traditional Kandil bakery and dessert- on the streets to show that they are not against religion or any religious community.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Sheb on June 05, 2013, 09:05:58 am
Post by: XXSockXX on June 05, 2013, 09:16:38 am
That, and the only deaths they even mention are only ones confirmed by "officials": The man shot by an unidentified gunman and one who was killed when a car drove through a protest. Note the lack of anything to do with the police there.German media have mentioned rumors about more deaths, apparently these 2 are the only ones they could confirm with both hospitals and authorities at this point.
I haven't heard about that facebook thing, but people are getting arrested now for “inciting riots and conducting propaganda” on Twitter (http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/24-detained-in-aegean-province-over-twitter-support-for-gezi.aspx?pageID=238&nID=48240&NewsCatID=341).
Apparently Taksim square has remained rather peaceful while violent clashes continue in Ankara and other cities.
So apparently the unions are calling for strikes. Unions tend to be more organized, so do we know what their demands are?As I understand it, it's just a general strike, the protesters are a diverse bunch without a clear-cut list of demands.
Picture of a couple celebrating their wedding during the protests:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Slayerhero90 on June 05, 2013, 09:18:07 am
That's actually kinda badass.
Post by: Leatra on June 05, 2013, 10:19:50 am
Post by: XXSockXX on June 05, 2013, 10:21:47 am
Questions will have to wait because I'm going to Taksim again. I'll respond after returning.Stay safe & good luck!
Post by: Scoops Novel on June 06, 2013, 03:49:04 am
Post by: XXSockXX on June 06, 2013, 09:52:16 am
The private streams linked in the OP and on occupy gezi (http://occupygezipics.tumblr.com/) are sort of coming and going. This one seems up right now (http://www.livestream.com/revoltistanbul), also showing Taksim, where apparently things have remained peaceful and police-free.
Clashes continue in other parts of the country (and other parts of Istanbul probably), yesterday a 3rd death was officially confirmed.
Some numbers from a news piece (in german) (http://www.welt.de/politik/ausland/article116886413/Erdogan-erklaert-der-Protestbewegung-den-Krieg.html):
About 4300 people have been injured since the beginning of the protests according to NGOs (the turkish government reports a whole 64!).
According to the government also 244 cops have been injured and 317 cop cars have been burned or damaged otherwise.
While there was some half-assed attempt to apologize for police brutality yesterday, Erdogan seems uncompromising and blames protesters and foreigners for instigating violence. So it looks like this is going to continue for now...
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on June 06, 2013, 10:03:29 am
I told you so.
Also, have this extremely high quality animation (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=7wwSPRpVJZE) to use if you need to explain the situation to somebody.
Post by: Leatra on June 06, 2013, 12:39:23 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
People who are posting stuff from Twitter about the protests are being arrested (https://twitter.com/vekilince/status/342006746543443968). An İzmir Human Rights Organization member confirmed this. The number of arrested people are estimated to be 40.
Some interesting photos from an an English website (http://www.buzzfeed.com/ryanhatesthis/36-surreal-and-defiant-photos-from-istanbuls-occupygezi). Darth Vader joining the protestors, women protestors doing yoga like the violent rioters they are, a makeshift library, a bride and groom marching with their wedding attire, protestor SWAT team, etc.
Not all cops are monsters. Some are even resigning. I have seen some cops handing out gas masks and carrying the wounded. I have also noticed this photo (http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-srbbp_SzCZA/Ua2mzjK5u-I/AAAAAAAAAN8/D5jw8_hKe9c/s1600/3.jpg) showing two protestors carrying a wounded cop.
Moroccans are protesting Erdoğan's visit. (http://“no to the criminal’s visit to our country”) The banner says "no to the criminal’s visit to our country"
Spoiler: Creative graffiti around (click to show/hide)
" He is here (http://24.media.tumblr.com/38ccfecb28941e26b6972ab5c04b323e/tumblr_mntlimpJzG1ste7qoo1_1280.jpg) supporting the protestors.Several unions are protesting. You can see KESK (Confederation of Public Workers' Unions) marching here. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1cJxT4FKHj8) Four big unions of Turkey have dropped work. DİSK (Confederation of Revolutionary Trade Unions of Turkey), TTB (Turkish Medical Association) and TMMOB (Union of Chambers of Turkish Engineers and Architects) joined the protests. The number of protestors from these unions are reported to be 850,000 from this Turkish source (http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/ekonomi/23437835.asp?ocezfbjjzfbjzydg). Of course not all of them are in one location. We don't have that much free space in Taksim. There is no general strike, some unions are dropping the work for short periods, that's all. Protestors are still urging the unions for a general strike. We'll see what happens.
https://twitter.com/bayfiratyildiz/status/340943561065373697/photo/1
Spoiler: Photos from other sources (click to show/hide)
Leandra: As for AKP loosing, do you have any idea of the sentiment outside the cities, the in the traditional AKP stronghold? With the media black-out, I'd expect a lot of older rural people to have no idea what's going on and thinking the protesters are rioters that should be put down. Could be worth launching a "call your grandma" campaign.
There are some protests in the rural areas too. For example, in Hatay protests, 2 protestors got killed by the police. I don't remember the exact number, but around 65 provinces out of 81 are protesting. The ignorance still exists because not everyone is aware of social media. There are even people who think this is a political party rally of some kind. There are old people protesting too as you can see from the photos I posted, but they are usually only in big cities.
I salute you from across the globe, sir. Please, keep safe. We don't want to lose you. Look, if it's too much to ask then don't, but I want your opinion on a few things.Good questions. No need to apologize, these are the exact kind of questions I would love to answer.
A) Do you think a revolution is possible, and would you take part in one?
B) If A is yes, would you want any foreign support to overthrow the government? Do you think this would just cause trouble?
C) What's your stance? Are there any groups or factions in this chaos or Gov and People?
D) How do you think this is going to end?
E) What do you think the fallout for the region will be? More revolutions/protesting?
I'm sorry, I just really want to know. This is an opportunity for us all to be educated by an inside source. It's so rare for things like this to happen. But anyway, I support you man. Keep your head down, don't take risks.
A) A revolution is possible because, well, Turkish people are easy to keep docile but hard to calm down once they rebel. Especially the young people will never go back to living normal with this government again. Every death creates a martyr, and strengthens the cause. If a revolution happens, I would definitely support it.
B) You mean direct help? Then, no. People have already started saying things like "This is all a game being played by superpowers". People here are very sensitive when it comes to being "supported" by a foreign power. Erdoğan already has a reputation for licking the ass of USA and it would put the protestors in a hypocritical situation. Indirect help or politicians criticizing Erdoğan is making people happy, but direct help would stir up some shit between the Nationalists.
C) Well, you know how it is. In every revolution everyone agrees about one thing, the government must go. Then they fight about every other issue at hand. Turkey had a bloody history between Nationalists and Communists. The last thing I want is these two groups butchering each other again. At the moment it seems like they are standing together. The real tension is between Fundamentals and Secularists. There are religious people who are supporting the protest but real Fundamentals are mostly supporting AKP. The majority appears to be Communists/Socialists/Secularists but there are people from every ideology. I think the gap between these groups are not very long. Everyone agrees that AKP must go and this is bringing the people together.
D) I predict that Erdoğan will be killed/exiled/forced to resign. The hate against him is indefinable. A simple apology isn't going to cut it. A military coup isn't likely, because Erdoğan already imprisoned lots of outspoken generals. The army isn't doing more than showing silent support. What will come? I have no idea. I'm expecting CHP (centre-leftist Kemalist main opposition party) to take the helm, but anything can happen. I personally want free elections with the exclusion of AKP. I think the majority wants this. But there is no stated demands, everyone is simply protesting and expecting things to change.
E) Well, pretty much what I said while answering question D. I think the Fundamentalists will form a new party if AKP dissolves. The new party will be very unpopular because there are lots of people around here who loves to lick the ass of who is ruling the country. If CHP becomes the new big man, all tongues will be directed at them (hey, that rhymes). So I'm not expecting a heavily conservative party. This movement is for democracy, so I'm not expecting another dictator claiming the seat of PM. The question of "What happens after this?" is pretty much answered by "We'll think about it if things come to it".
Anyway, moving back to turkey.Well, when they start headshotting civilians with gas canisters and opening craters on people's faces (https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BLtGXMZCIAAd5Mg.jpg:large), one tends to steer clear of Turkish police.
Damn that face wound looks nasty, kinda says something about the police if they're doing things like that. As if they just dont really care at all about the lives of the protestors, although that's already been established with the various deaths..
So yeah, be careful.
As an aside, it is somewhat good to see solidarity (Am I even using it right) coming in from places, like Greece. I mean it should create pressure on the Turkish government, right?
Also over here in the east of england, we got coverage of it yesterday, from the bbc news channel so it not being frontpage on the website is somewhat weird.
The news of solidarity from other countries are giving people hope and courage. It's also apparently creating pressure on the Turkish government because some politicians said things like "This is affecting our image negatively."
actually, greece is the historical enemy of turkey, so whatever the greeks say will only strengthen the government's position in it's own eyes and the eyes of it's supporters, although it might lighten up the relations between the two countries once this government is deposedNot at all. Greece are one of the most supportive countries when it comes to this movement. I love Greek people personally and their support makes me happy and giving people hope. There are racists everywhere acting like we are still fighting the Turkish War of Independence but racists exist everywhere. Don't mind them.
Erdogan has apparently decided that he's going to go ahead with demolishing the park again. (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-22801548)That animation was awesome. Everyone should watch it. There are lots of more stuff Erdoğan did but it still shows some of the most controversial ones. Erdoğan clearly sees himself as one of the emperors of Ottoman Empire. One thing he forgets is, Turkey was created from the ruins of Ottoman Empire after Turkish rebels started disagreeing with the direction Ottoman Empire was taking. What's more is, it's us who has the western support this time.
I told you so.
Also, have this extremely high quality animation (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=7wwSPRpVJZE) to use if you need to explain the situation to somebody.
Thanks for the supportive comments everyone! I wish I could do more, but this is all I can do without worrying my family too much. One can only create so many lies about the slogans being screamed on the background while talking on the phone.
BTW, this channel is mostly active and even when it's not active it runs the most recent recordings. Beware of trolls when no moderator is present.
http://www.livestream.com/revoltistanbul
Keep following the link below. There are lots of interesting photos there.
http://occupygezipics.tumblr.com/
Post by: XXSockXX on June 06, 2013, 02:10:40 pm
There was also lots of foreigners around. I heard some foreigners arrested by the police, so it's not surprising. I'm sure government will say "they are agents" or something like that.That's exactly what they are saying. Some 15 foreigners have been arrested, among them a german tourist. Reports on the others are a bit contradictory, some are EU exchange students, some had diplomatic passports from UK, France, USA and Greece. They found fireworks and gas canisters with them, so they are accused of being provocateurs.
They have a lot of interviews with Germans and german-speaking Turks in Istanbul in the media here, I even saw something about that makeshift library on TV yesterday. (There's clip about that at the bottom of this article (http://www.tagesschau.de/ausland/proteste-tuerkei100.html), doesn't let me link directly to the clip and it's in german anyway...)
Violence seems to be shifting to rural areas and other cities, because there is too much international media attention on Istanbul now.
Some pics from supporters in Germany:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Slayerhero90 on June 06, 2013, 02:27:27 pm
Post by: AlmightyOne on June 06, 2013, 02:41:20 pm
Post by: majikero on June 06, 2013, 02:42:24 pm
Post by: Leatra on June 06, 2013, 03:38:24 pm
A man named Turan Aktaş got hit in the head. He has a fractured skull. He is under brain surgery right now. Situation is very critical.
Spoiler: You can see the empty canister and the blood splatter here (click to show/hide)
Heh, didn't surprise me. People are sensitive about foreign "agents" here. We are not even fighting for democracy. We are protesting for democracy. There are no cops among the killed and they are branding the people as provocateurs.There was also lots of foreigners around. I heard some foreigners arrested by the police, so it's not surprising. I'm sure government will say "they are agents" or something like that.That's exactly what they are saying. Some 15 foreigners have been arrested, among them a german tourist. Reports on the others are a bit contradictory, some are EU exchange students, some had diplomatic passports from UK, France, USA and Greece. They found fireworks and gas canisters with them, so they are accused of being provocateurs.
They have a lot of interviews with Germans and german-speaking Turks in Istanbul in the media here, I even saw something about that makeshift library on TV yesterday. (There's clip about that at the bottom of this article (http://www.tagesschau.de/ausland/proteste-tuerkei100.html), doesn't let me link directly to the clip and it's in german anyway...)
Violence seems to be shifting to rural areas and other cities, because there is too much international media attention on Istanbul now.
Some pics from supporters in Germany:Spoiler (click to show/hide)
That wall of needs, man...Yeah, there is a makeshift kitchen working to feed the occupiers for free right now in Taksim.
TAKE CARE of yourself Leatra, sorry long since I visited here so couldn't reply before. Will be watching this very closelyThanks. Police isn't at Taksim so I'm not throwing myself into much danger by visiting there.
Best of luck to you guys and hopefully it doesn't spiral out to martial law.Thanks. That's unlikely, since Erdoğan already imprisoned lots of outspoken generals and the army didn't really do much than offering free gas masks and sending support messages for now.
Post by: olemars on June 06, 2013, 03:40:44 pm
Post by: XXSockXX on June 06, 2013, 04:15:30 pm
People are sensitive about foreign "agents" here.That is understandable, no one really likes foreigners messing with their internal affairs. I've read a news piece where they interviewed an Erdogan supporter in a more conservative part of Istanbul. He was sceptical of the protests and suspected agitators from Europe, USA and Israel conspiring against Islam. Hopefully that kind of impression can be avoided...
Maybe that's why political response has been measured so far, beyond condemning police brutality. Cem Özdemir, leader of the german Green Party, has visited Gezi Park and more or less diplomatically called on Erdogan to listen to the people while also positively remarking on Gül's attempt to have a dialogue.
If anyone's seen the picture of a lady in a red dress getting peppersprayed by police, The Guardian has pieced together the story behind it (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/05/turkey-lady-red-dress-ceyda-sungur).Here's the whole sequence of pictures:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Sheb on June 06, 2013, 04:25:40 pm
Post by: Parsely on June 06, 2013, 09:52:37 pm
wat ._.If anyone's seen the picture of a lady in a red dress getting peppersprayed by police, The Guardian has pieced together the story behind it (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/05/turkey-lady-red-dress-ceyda-sungur).Here's the whole sequence of pictures:Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: kingfisher1112 on June 06, 2013, 09:56:02 pm
A) You mentioned a SWAT team protesting, or something along those lines. What's going on there?
B) How violent have the protestors been? How have they kept the police out of the park?
C) There was also mention of the deputy leader, what about him? Has he spoken out or anything of the sort?
D) When I was talking about the region I meant about the countries close to you that may be suffering the same thing. Do you think they might have protests or something of the sort?
E) Who's supplying your Internet? Is it likely to get cut off?
F) How well are those makeshift gas masks working? Have you needed one or gotten caught in a cloud?
G) How are your friends/family holding up?
Again, sorry for all the questions.
Post by: misko27 on June 07, 2013, 12:48:59 am
Post by: Leatra on June 07, 2013, 04:38:16 am
This is a giant lie.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
The loyalists were picked up by busses and gathered around the airport. They even prepared fireworks and a good sound system. Erdoğan also read a prepared paper there, with Ministry of Environment and City Planning, Erdoğan Bayraktar, holding a flashlight to his paper.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
The group dispersed after throwing slogans like "Tell us to die, and we will die!" and "Give us the road and we will crush Taksim" I was going to say that they were brainwashed, but I'm not sure if they got a brain.
Spoiler: 6 newspapers with the same header (click to show/hide)
A Starbucks store had to close shop after protestors spread the word about how they closed their doors to protestors. Boycott worked so well, they are hardly getting any customers now. Some Starbucks stores started helping the protestors after this but their reputation is very ruined right now. A similar thing happened to Kızılkayalar, a similar company famous for their hamburgers, they got the same treatment after one of their workers chased a protestors with a machete. Most of their stores are closed now.
Thanks for answering my questions Leatra. I've got a few more if it's not too much trouble:You're welcome. Don't worry, I'm here to answer questions.
A) You mentioned a SWAT team protesting, or something along those lines. What's going on there?
B) How violent have the protestors been? How have they kept the police out of the park?
C) There was also mention of the deputy leader, what about him? Has he spoken out or anything of the sort?
D) When I was talking about the region I meant about the countries close to you that may be suffering the same thing. Do you think they might have protests or something of the sort?
E) Who's supplying your Internet? Is it likely to get cut off?
F) How well are those makeshift gas masks working? Have you needed one or gotten caught in a cloud?
G) How are your friends/family holding up?
Again, sorry for all the questions.
A) That SWAT team thing was a joke about protestors stealing police equipment and forming a shield wall. Nothing serious.
B) They basically stood still and the police gave up after some time. Some protestors are throwing rocks at the police. There are people vandalizing too but they usually get booed by the protestors if they attempt to do this. People who attempt to burn flags get stopped too. Protestors also help the bystanders with anti-tear solutions and gas masks.
C) The deputy leader was more lax with the protestors, criticizing the police for excessive use of gas bombs. Some people suspect this is just a good cop/bad cop being played here. He looks genuinely scared and anxious nowadays though.
D) Greece is giving a lot of support. Pretty much every country is helping but I have seen the most support from Germany and Greece.
E) Türk Telekom is the largest internet provider. I don't think they are going to cut it off. They wouldn't dare.
F) I never wore one. Even in places where their is no gas canisters around, my nose was still burning. I can't even guess what would happen if I got caught in a cloud. Most people just wear a piece of cloth around their mouth. There are people with military grade gas masks too. I think makeshift gas masks are working well because they have been gaining popularity.
G) Most of my friends are joining the protests from time to time. Even my most apolitical friends have started joining the protests. Some acquaintances of mine have been wounded in the protests. My family is mostly just digging up information about what's going on and not actively joining the protests.
How does the whole over-turning the government thing look? Because it seems like the guy is the picture in the dictionary next to "uncompromising".People will probably keep protesting until AKP resigns but like you said, it doesn't look like it's gonna happen anytime soon.
Post by: SalmonGod on June 07, 2013, 05:31:04 am
If anyone's seen the picture of a lady in a red dress getting peppersprayed by police, The Guardian has pieced together the story behind it (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/05/turkey-lady-red-dress-ceyda-sungur).Here's the whole sequence of pictures:Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Zangi on June 07, 2013, 06:55:28 am
Post by: Akura on June 07, 2013, 11:04:38 am
I think the sprayer seemed a little too eager at spraying her down and only her."Are you listening to me, or are you too busy spraying the woman in the red dress?"
"I was just-"
"Look again."
...Yeah, that was awful :-\. I'm not sure why he'd go right after her. Maybe he doesn't like the color red?
Post by: Leatra on June 07, 2013, 11:52:20 am
A police officer celebrating his success after headshotting a protestor. (http://www.59saniye.com/eylemciyi-vuran-polisin-gorulmeye-deger-sevinci/)
Police launching gas canisters at apartments. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=9AF983TLd2k)
Another sunny day for the police in Ankara. (http://www.59saniye.com/bazen-polis-olmak/)
Spoiler: Ministry of Truth could handle this better (click to show/hide)
No, actually he was spraying pepper to everyone. (http://www.59saniye.com/taksim-gezi-parkinda-herkese-biber-gazi-sikan-polis/)I think the sprayer seemed a little too eager at spraying her down and only her."Are you listening to me, or are you too busy spraying the woman in the red dress?"
"I was just-"
"Look again."
...Yeah, that was awful :-\. I'm not sure why he'd go right after her. Maybe he doesn't like the color red?
Post by: XXSockXX on June 07, 2013, 12:00:40 pm
Quote
In response, Mr Erdogan accused the EU of double standards, saying police in Europe and the US used the similar methods.Yeah, right...
"Similar protests have taken place in Britain, France, Germany and bigger ones in Greece," he said.
Post by: Leatra on June 07, 2013, 12:02:32 pm
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-22817460That's nothing. He said 17 people died in the occupy protests in Wall Street because of police intervention.QuoteIn response, Mr Erdogan accused the EU of double standards, saying police in Europe and the US used the similar methods.Yeah, right...
"Similar protests have taken place in Britain, France, Germany and bigger ones in Greece," he said.
This guy can do nothing to justify the police brutalization that's going on, so he is trying to normalize it now.
Post by: GlyphGryph on June 07, 2013, 12:12:44 pm
Post by: XXSockXX on June 07, 2013, 12:36:43 pm
Leatra:
Is turkish media coverage getting any better?
What is "the silent majority" thinking?
Are you worried AKP voters might start (violently) counter-protesting?
Media here are reporting about the different goals of the protesters, tensions between Kurds and Kemalists, fear of CHP or other opposition parties hijacking the protests. Are you seeing any of that?
Post by: AlmightyOne on June 07, 2013, 12:38:32 pm
Because of the major news networks of the world covering this so poorly,
No wonder over here in India, there is hardly any media coverage other than the red dress lady incident.
and a mention by a columnist in a paper comparing it and saying how the Indian government should be warned and not try to make laws which are invading individual's rights like the ones they are trying to pass right now over here which are mainly to control media and also telecommunications monitoring. This is one of the examples- http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/tech/tech-news/internet/Indias-web-phone-surveillance-system-draws-flak/articleshow/20479332.cms (http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/tech/tech-news/internet/Indias-web-phone-surveillance-system-draws-flak/articleshow/20479332.cms)
Also I have question Leatra, you haven't mentioned this before and just answer it in a few words,
Has all these harsh rules like heavy media censorship, booze etc only started since His ascent to power suddenly by Him or has it been there before Him and He only worsened it?
Post by: 10ebbor10 on June 07, 2013, 12:46:45 pm
Also I have question Leatra, you haven't mentioned this before and just answer it in a few words,The AKP has been in power since 2002. It's fairly hard to compare. (Also, hardly fair)
Has all these harsh rules like heavy media censorship, booze etc only started since His ascent to power suddenly by Him or has it been there before Him and He only worsened it?
Post by: Mephansteras on June 07, 2013, 01:52:49 pm
Good luck, Turkey! I really hope you guys end up with a better government out of all of this.
Post by: XXSockXX on June 07, 2013, 02:13:49 pm
Loopholed like a lawyer, sir ;).What is "the silent majority" thinking?Can't ask that, since they'd no longer be part of the silent majority after talking to him.
Let me rephrase the question: What is the non-protesting population thinking? Is there much agreement/disagreement with the protesters?
Post by: RedWarrior0 on June 07, 2013, 10:49:16 pm
Post by: Leatra on June 08, 2013, 08:58:00 am
Yeah, we just right now have a case where some cops are accused of overreacting at an occupy demo in Frankfurt (I think they broke a camera). The difference to Turkey is - there was media outrage, now an investigation and if necessary there will be a trial.The Turkish media started show some recordings of the protests areas after the backlash from people. But they were usually biased when showing this. A woman was holding a bottle of vinegar to lessen the effects of the gas on her eyes and she was branded as a molotov-wielding maniac. A photo of a Turkish flag being burned by the protestors have been shown too, but it's clearly the work of Photoshop because the flag wasn't on fire even though it was physically on a fire. There is also this:
Leatra:
Is turkish media coverage getting any better?
What is "the silent majority" thinking?
Are you worried AKP voters might start (violently) counter-protesting?
Media here are reporting about the different goals of the protesters, tensions between Kurds and Kemalists, fear of CHP or other opposition parties hijacking the protests. Are you seeing any of that?
I was already used to the lies of Turkish media but they are now getting incredibly extreme. I'm seeing things I read about in Nineteen Eighty-Four by Orwell. It's not just the Turkish media that's taking sides. There are even big companies supporting AKP. They are under a widespread boycott by the protestors but Turkish media isn't easy to boycott because that's where everyone gets information, at least people who don't use social media. Turkish media doesn't only lick Erdoğan's ass to get rewarded by him, there are people who agree with him. A journalist once said "In this country, alcohol, prostitution, sex without marriage, being faithless, statues, ideologies, ballet, romantic relationships without marriage, bikini and more is allowed. With all these freedoms, what else do they want, why they are protesting?" I wish you guys knew enough Turkish to read what these motherfuckers are saying. I'm living in a country where ballet and statues are seen as something that wouldn't be allowed normally, and people treat Turkey like we are a secular and free country because everyone compares us to Middle East rather than Europa.Spoiler: Ministry of Truth could handle this better (click to show/hide)
I'm not seeing any clashes between the protestors with opposing ideologies. Actually, there was a group of people who was performing namaz at the protest area. The protestors formed a wall by surrounding them so nobody would harass them. You know there is solidarity in a protestor group if an atheist is protecting a Muslim from any possible provocation. It's the first time in Turkey I'm seeing this much solidarity withing the supporters of opposing ideologies. CHP didn't hijack the protests and they actually didn't say anything about it until after 3-4 days. They are supportive of the protests, but they aren't actively joining the protests with their party banners and stuff. This movement has started by the people, and no political party can hijack it. The people wouldn't allow it. There are lots of people who dislike CHP there. I didn't see any tension between Kurds and Kemalists too. I have seen some Kurds doing PKK propaganda but nobody intervened and they left by themselves. Ass-licker Turkish media and AKP tries to polarize the groups with labels like Secularists, Kurds, Kemalists, etc, and the foreign media is probably getting information from them.
AKP loyalists are already attacking people in the streets with the iron clubs. Cops use them as a militia. You can see AKP loyalists and cops throwing rocks at protestors together in this video. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P77BxQzeEK4) I mean... Seriously, if the police is throwing rocks at a protestor group, than something is wrong with this country. I have seen people chasing down by-standers with machetes and clubs. What kind of a person would do that.
If you mean a literal counter-protesting, like with slogans and banners and stuff, that only happened at Atatürk Airport when a group of AKP loyalists were gathered by AKP politicians to welcome Erdoğan to the country. I'm not worried of their protesting. Everyone is free to voice their opinions and they are welcome to do so. I'm worried they are attacking the protestors with clubs and machetes. Even that gathering at Atatürk Airport didn't happen by the people itself. AKP politicians actively gathered a group by sending messages to them and gathering them with AKP funded busses. They set up fireworks and a sound system.
Then they lied to everyone with things like "We couldn't stop them. They wanted to welcome the president." Even when the evidence suggesting the exactly opposite of that was existing on the internet.
It can be seen very easily that they are only there because someone told them to. While protesting, there is a guy who shouts a slogan with a megaphone, so the rest can understand the slogan and shout it together. The guy with the megaphone said "Don't test our patience, Taksim!" and some of the people interpreted that as "Don't test our patience, Tayyip!" and they kept shouting Tayyip instead of Taksim. I don't know if this is hilarious or embarrassing. This kind of community is more than what a dictator would want. We should gather these groups into a time machine and send them to Nazi Germany or Stalin's Soviet Russia or something.
Well, I did join the protests at Taksim, so I don't think I count as a non-protestor. I definitely did less than all the brave people protesting near the police, throwing active gas canisters away, helping the wounded, etc, but I can at least say "I was there" to my and grandchild one day.
"The silent majority" and the non-protesting population are either AKP loyalists or people who aren't able to join the protests. I know several people who couldn't join the protests because their families were worried (and they couldn't come up with a lie like me) or simply scared to join the protests. AKP loyalists are already showing their colors by assaulting the protestors with police and with their comments on the social media. Considering how protests in İstanbul are so big people can't fit into Taksim anymore, I'd say there are lots of people sympathizing with the protestors but can't join actively.
Took an whole day to finish finally reading all that has been going on...great job Leatra! Learnt and came to know about a lot besides this.AKP could never do something like that in Turkey. They don't understand how Internet works and it would be easily hackable or easily circumvented. Every self-respecting internet user in Turkey has the basic understanding of DNS options and proxies thanks to the censorship of AKP.
Because of the major news networks of the world covering this so poorly,
No wonder over here in India, there is hardly any media coverage other than the red dress lady incident.
and a mention by a columnist in a paper comparing it and saying how the Indian government should be warned and not try to make laws which are invading individual's rights like the ones they are trying to pass right now over here which are mainly to control media and also telecommunications monitoring. This is one of the examples- http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/tech/tech-news/internet/Indias-web-phone-surveillance-system-draws-flak/articleshow/20479332.cms (http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/tech/tech-news/internet/Indias-web-phone-surveillance-system-draws-flak/articleshow/20479332.cms)
Yeah, AKP has been in power since 2002. They were very slow with furthering their conservative and fundamentalist Islamic agenda. They knew how to keep the people with the same memory capability of a fish. They knew how to widen their influence and keep people from rebelling. They rewarded their followers and punished the people who kept criticizing them.Also I have question Leatra, you haven't mentioned this before and just answer it in a few words,The AKP has been in power since 2002. It's fairly hard to compare. (Also, hardly fair)
Has all these harsh rules like heavy media censorship, booze etc only started since His ascent to power suddenly by Him or has it been there before Him and He only worsened it?
I still remember all the women who got raped by 10-15 people at the same time and the rapists managed to walk free because the woman in question was deemed "she was clearly enjoying it" by the judges. It really doesn't matter if you are a rapist maniacal murderous sociopath or not. The only thing that matters is if you support AKP or not. Erdoğan is your Big Brother who will protect you if you support him. If you support the big guy, you can do whatever you want. The laws are only enforced when it benefits AKP somehow. We are talking about a PM whose nephew was caught with 50 kilograms (110 pounds) of cannabis, and managed to walk free. Drug laws are more strict at Turkey than USA, but I'm sure you guys don't allow people to carry a drug shipment in their cars either.
I think one day Erdoğan thought "Eh, fuck it" and started pushing the throttle-o-dictatorship to the max. Now he has broken the throttle with an uproarious sound and everyone can hear it's echos. I think all these slow processes started to bore him. After people had it enough and started protesting, he expected everyone to calm down after a few days. I think he is yet to realize the seriousness of the situation because he keeps getting more harsher with his statements. He said that it would be best to hang the people who are spreading "lies" from Twitter with the trees at Gezi Park. He lied about 17 people getting killed in the Occupy Wall Street movement. There are lots of things I can say about Erdoğan right now but I think these are enough to show that this guy is not the compromising democratic type and he will just make things worse.
Post by: Sheb on June 08, 2013, 09:10:30 am
Post by: Leatra on June 08, 2013, 09:17:40 am
Occupying İstanbul's city hall is the same thing with "We want to die, please send some cops to kill us" so I don't think that's gonna happen anytime soon.
Also more than 60 provinces out of 81 in Turkey are protesting. So it's not just about İstanbul anymore.
Post by: Sheb on June 08, 2013, 09:23:24 am
As for occupying city hall, I meant more protesting in front of it that storming the building. It's an AKP mayor in Istanbul, right?
Post by: SalmonGod on June 08, 2013, 10:17:15 am
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: tryrar on June 08, 2013, 10:37:35 am
Post by: Sheb on June 08, 2013, 10:45:11 am
Keep up the good work,victory is coming. It is not the first time that a Sultan is brought down by young Turks.
Post by: Owlbread on June 08, 2013, 11:12:37 am
I'm going to dedicate you this one. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TxMUZZ3jx-g)
Keep up the good work,victory is coming. It is not the first time that a Sultan is brought down by young Turks.
Hopefully this time it won't lead to genocide.
Post by: Leatra on June 08, 2013, 11:36:21 am
I know, but the international media is focused on Taksim, which is why going by them the protests are winding down. You can't win if the world forget about you.Well, the number of protestors in Taksim is decreasing and increasing by time. Nothing can be done about it. Other regions get more police brutality so people tend to protest in these areas. The protests in İzmir was more brutal because of AKP loyalists and civil police ambushing the protestors.
As for occupying city hall, I meant more protesting in front of it that storming the building. It's an AKP mayor in Istanbul, right?
Protesting in front of city hall would give AKP an opportunity to attack the protestors by branding them as terrorists who wanted to storm the place. And yes, they would exaggerate that much.
Amazing photoTaking cover behind the barricades are kind of risky because police trucks tends to ram barricades and run down anyone behind them. Photo looks cool though.Spoiler (click to show/hide)
I'm going to dedicate you this one. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TxMUZZ3jx-g)Yeah, Erdoğan keeps forgetting that. He is clearly obsessed with Ottoman emperors but he forgets about the fact that that most late-Ottoman emperors were very inefficient and cowardly bastards who were brought down by the Turkish people after getting defeated in the World War I.
Keep up the good work,victory is coming. It is not the first time that a Sultan is brought down by young Turks.
Thanks for the support. The police in Foo Fighters' music video still looked more humane than ours :P
Post by: Sheb on June 08, 2013, 11:53:47 am
Protesting in front of city hall would give AKP an opportunity to attack the protestors by branding them as terrorists who wanted to storm the place. And yes, they would exaggerate that much.
I don't doubt it for a minute. Erdogan is already calling you terrorists after all.
Post by: Morrigi on June 08, 2013, 12:29:24 pm
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on June 08, 2013, 12:32:29 pm
Post by: Zangi on June 08, 2013, 12:42:26 pm
Ah, context, enlightening. But yea, I still stand by the observation that guy seemed very eager, the way he is running around and stumbling...
@Comparison to other put-downs of protests... eh, I figure the difference is who gets the narrative out. Like calling protesters thugs/hooligans and trying to incite violence from them, so they can take it out of context.
Erdoğan's strategy right now is writing the narrative. Or at least muddling the situation so that outsiders and those who are not following the protests cannot be entirely sure of whats happening. In effect, sowing doubt in what is really happening and depending on people's default position of... not doing anything / not caring.
Sure, police in other places didn't kill people... but they still did some heavy handed stuff.
Post by: Morrigi on June 08, 2013, 12:44:31 pm
If Erdogan doesn't back down? Almost certain. The government has gone past the point of no return for this just dying out. The funny part is that this would probably already be over if they hadn't cracked down.The funnier part is that if it does boil over the U.S. probably won't support the rebels because they'll have a real chance of reforming a secular democracy.
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on June 08, 2013, 12:48:31 pm
I don't know what makes you think that. From both an idealistic and pragmatic standpoint, the US benefits from siding with the protestors and loses from siding with Erdogan, who is both Islamist and trying to move Turkey out of the US-EU power bloc.If Erdogan doesn't back down? Almost certain. The government has gone past the point of no return for this just dying out. The funny part is that this would probably already be over if they hadn't cracked down.The funnier part is that if it does boil over the U.S. probably won't support the rebels because they'll have a real chance of reforming a secular democracy.
Post by: Sheb on June 08, 2013, 01:05:56 pm
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on June 08, 2013, 01:08:04 pm
There is a potential for turmoil in the regime change, but as the Turkish military seems content to either stay out of it or help the protestors that won't be an issue.
As before, if Erdogan is allowed to remain in power he'll keep moving Turkey towards an Eastern power bloc, and then the US gains nothing from Turkey.
Post by: Sheb on June 08, 2013, 01:42:40 pm
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on June 08, 2013, 01:48:11 pm
Post by: 10ebbor10 on June 08, 2013, 02:24:45 pm
Turkey is going to move eastward no matter what. (Although I'd rather say middle-eastward). They tried to get into the EU, and we all but closed the door. With the west closed to them, they have no other direction to go, and Erdogan's fall won't change that.Turkish acension to the EU is still an option.
Just some problems with censorship and the like. Totally not the fact that Turkey would become the most influential country in the EU. Nope.
Post by: Sheb on June 08, 2013, 02:43:47 pm
Greece and Cyprus are a more real problem. Greece has shown that it's not averse to blocking other countries accession (Cyprus was only let in because Greece took the whole Eastern expansion hostage, and now they're annoying Macedonia. Fuck Greece.), and Cyprus show no will to compromise, as shown by their rejection of the 2004 UN Peace Plan.
And then, there is good old Islamophobia. A few years back, when the talks were going strong, the French FN ran adds warning about Muslims invasions, and other far-right party did as well. More mainstream politicians jumped on the bandwagon, including Merkel, who'd prefer giving the Turk as "favored partnership" instead of making them members.
Now, you can't expect a country like Turkey to stay at the West's doors, doing our bidding while being kept in some sort of half-assed "special relationship". Either you accept them as peers, or they'll have to make their own alliances. Now, for years they were at the West doors, so once that one closed, well, it started paying attention to its other neighbors. Turns out they're Eastward of Turkey.
Now, I don't think all is lost. As Leantra showed, the Turks prefers to think of themselves as Europeans than Middle-Easterner (who could blame them for that?). If the EU get its fingers out of its collective arse and get serious about Turkey membership, I think it could still be done, with great benefits for both sides. And if we have to kick out Greece and Cyprus to make room, so be it.
Did I tell you how much I hated Greece's European policy?
Post by: Leatra on June 08, 2013, 03:09:57 pm
The new regime probably will be more anti-USA than Erdoğan. There is a lot of people hating Tayyip for all the ass-licking he did for USA. The majority of protestors also doesn't really like USA much, not to mention that everyone hates capitalism and imperialist countries. "Imperialist" is a label that got stuck on USA for years in Turkey. The youth of this nation is heavily socialist/communist/nationalist, all of these labels clash with the "Imperialist" label.I don't know what makes you think that. From both an idealistic and pragmatic standpoint, the US benefits from siding with the protestors and loses from siding with Erdogan, who is both Islamist and trying to move Turkey out of the US-EU power bloc.If Erdogan doesn't back down? Almost certain. The government has gone past the point of no return for this just dying out. The funny part is that this would probably already be over if they hadn't cracked down.The funnier part is that if it does boil over the U.S. probably won't support the rebels because they'll have a real chance of reforming a secular democracy.
To be honest (and blunt), nobody gives a shit about EU registration process in Turkey anymore. We all talked about how awesome would it be if we were in EU for years but that news trend is over. Turks do see themselves as Europeans and they pretty much dislike Middle-Easterners because they seem uncultured and barbaric to them but I'm not sure if people want Turkey to be in EU anymore. It's very clear that Turkey is not wanted in EU, and the Turkey is simply looking for alternatives. "There is no friend of Turk, except for Turk" is a Turkish saying that got stuck since the World War I, and there are people who are prejudicial against western countries. There is also a group of people who say that Turkey should return to it's roots and improve relationships and establish partnerships with other Turkic countries.
It's generally agreed even by people who hate AKP, that EU will just slow down the process even if Turkey met the required criteria. So it's mostly considered impossible and not important enough to even try.
These are just my estimations, the only (and most recent, 22 January) poll I looked at had this:
%33,3 Turkey should keep trying for full membership
%25,2 Full membership should be given up and there is no need for improved relations
%19,7 Full membership should be given up but partnerships must be established
%14,6 Not only Turkey should give up on full membership, we should establish an anti-EU structure (I think this means joining an organization that rivals EU or something)
I'm not someone who trusts polls too much though.
Turkish source (http://www.haber7.com/dis-politika/haber/980613-son-ankete-gore-turklerin-ab-uyeligine-bakisi)
Taksim is calm, but incredibly crowded.
Spoiler: It looked like this some hours ago. (click to show/hide)
Police is attacking protestors in Ankara... after they said that they weren't going to intervene until Monday.
Post by: Sheb on June 08, 2013, 03:15:32 pm
Post by: Leatra on June 08, 2013, 03:17:21 pm
Post by: XXSockXX on June 08, 2013, 09:38:59 pm
Nevermind the EU, who knows if that is still a thing in 10 years. The important thing now is turning Turkey into a real democracy.
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on June 09, 2013, 11:15:40 am
Post by: 10ebbor10 on June 09, 2013, 11:47:37 am
Nevermind the EU, who knows if that is still a thing in 10 years. The important thing now is turning Turkey into a real democracy.Probably still is. In what form, that's unknown. Strangely, the chances of Turkey's accension to the Union are inverted towards the success of the Union. If the union falls apart towards a loose alliance, no doubt Turkey would fit in. In a tighter knit federation structure,...
Well, Turkey's population is smaller than Germany's, and less than half its GDP. Furthermore, you can be sure the ratios in the European Parliament would be skewed to keep them down.Still, second largest, and according to demographic predictions, largest by 2020.
And they can't skew the ratios. That would require a change to the European constitution, and well, last time that took more than 10 years to happen. Same reason that they still ship the entire parliament to Strasbourg every year.
Post by: XXSockXX on June 09, 2013, 12:11:34 pm
And they can't skew the ratios. That would require a change to the European constitution, and well, last time that took more than 10 years to happen.We don't even have a constitution yet (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Constitution). The EU is a bureacratic monster with huge democracy deficits, it is already totally overextended and needs some massive consolidation to not become irrelevant. There is a lot of stuff that needs to be resolved before even more new members can be accepted. And then there is the Euro-crisis, that could lead to a break-up of the common currency. There are clearly some Turkey-specific problems with EU-membership, but the most important problems are within the current state of the EU itself.
Post by: GlyphGryph on June 09, 2013, 12:24:44 pm
A Turkish gameshow host made all of the question answers things related to the protests. (http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/06/05/civil-disobedience-on-a-turkish-game-show/?ref=world) On a channel normally in Erdogan's pocket, no less.
Awesome.
Post by: Sheb on June 09, 2013, 12:29:27 pm
Post by: Leatra on June 10, 2013, 08:35:07 pm
Erdoğan is going to meet a representative group from the Gezi Park protestors on Wednesday. The group is consisted of 16 people, including artists, teachers, and high school/university students. The known members of the group are Ahmet Mümtaz Taylan, Prof. Betül Tanbay, gazeteci Hayko Bağdat, Mücella Yapıcı. Greenpeace will also be there. There are people who don't find this group "representative" enough. We'll see. I'm not expecting much, Erdoğan is not the tolerant type.
A crazy protestor attacking an armored police truck (with water cannon)... by spraying water with a garden hose. (http://s1.directupload.net/images/130609/9eedl8ll.swf)
A closer look to the lawless and policeless free-town of Gezi commune (English Source) (http://www.theatlanticcities.com/politics/2013/06/occupy-istanbul-protesters-build-their-own-mini-city-gezi-park/5829/)
As always, AKP is trying to gather supporters for it's cause. She is shouting "To welcome Mr. Recep Tayyip Erdoğan, Sunday at 16:00..." (https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=494341820636185&) They are so desperate, they are even bribing 100 TLs for every supporter for a particular rally and they are taking legal action against absentees. I had pics to prove it but they were deleted.
Spoiler: Photos (click to show/hide)
A Turkish gameshow host made all of the question answers things related to the protests. (http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/06/05/civil-disobedience-on-a-turkish-game-show/?ref=world) On a channel normally in Erdogan's pocket, no less.Censorship can never stop people who have enough wit to get crap past the radar. At least there are people like this trying even while working under the pressure of propaganda machines.
Post by: Scelly9 on June 10, 2013, 08:37:51 pm
Post by: XXSockXX on June 10, 2013, 08:48:01 pm
I'm gonna be away from Istanbul for around 2-3 months and I won't have a stable internet connection. This might be my last post for weeks.Hope you go somewhere safe. Also hope something positive comes out of this before 2 months are over, but these things tend to take time.
I've heard about Erdogan meeting some representatives, but I've also heard he asked his supporters to protest as well, so it's doubtful what will come out of this.
Post by: Leatra on June 10, 2013, 09:30:20 pm
This is an archive built with providing evidence against police brutality in mind.
I'm going to Balıkesir. I always go to Balıkesir when it's Summer. I haven't heard any big protests taking place there. Izmir, Ankara and Istanbul was the provinces which had the most bloody protests. Maybe Hatay too, considering the death of 2 protestors from there.I'm gonna be away from Istanbul for around 2-3 months and I won't have a stable internet connection. This might be my last post for weeks.Hope you go somewhere safe. Also hope something positive comes out of this before 2 months are over, but these things tend to take time.
I've heard about Erdogan meeting some representatives, but I've also heard he asked his supporters to protest as well, so it's doubtful what will come out of this.
I'm not expecting anything interesting. He might even cancel it at last minute.
Post by: XXSockXX on June 10, 2013, 09:55:37 pm
http://delilimvar.tumblr.com/archiveI have actually seen this linked on a news site, german media had a lot of blogs linked. Support rallys continue, especially in Berlin (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HxNuxIKbGLo) of course.
This is an archive built with providing evidence against police brutality in mind.
There are a lot of other stories in the news now, mostly about the floods, but Turkey still gets a lot of coverage.
Post by: Leatra on June 10, 2013, 11:12:06 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Gezi looks very calm... and innocent. (http://www.livestream.com/revoltistanbul)
Post by: Max White on June 10, 2013, 11:19:46 pm
Post by: Leatra on June 10, 2013, 11:25:20 pm
Judging from the words police have broken earlier, I'd say they have gathered this army for a reason.
Post by: Parsely on June 10, 2013, 11:29:55 pm
Post by: Leatra on June 10, 2013, 11:35:22 pm
BTW, the cameraman's accent sound American. I wonder when he got the camera.
actually watch this: http://www.dha.com.tr/canli-yayin/
Post by: Parsely on June 10, 2013, 11:44:05 pm
EDIT: Molotovs. Loud explosives went off. Police forming up with shields.
Post by: XXSockXX on June 11, 2013, 12:00:53 am
Post by: Leatra on June 11, 2013, 12:06:20 am
I hope I'll see something good when I return to Istanbul
I hate to leave it like this.
Fuck.
FUCK!
Post by: SalmonGod on June 11, 2013, 12:13:12 am
Be careful.
Post by: RedWarrior0 on June 11, 2013, 12:14:13 am
Post by: Mictlantecuhtli on June 11, 2013, 01:53:51 am
Spoiler: currently happening (click to show/hide)
Just saw a guy fall on his own molotov while trying to throw it. Talk about embarrassing.
Post by: Scelly9 on June 11, 2013, 01:55:47 am
Post by: Mictlantecuhtli on June 11, 2013, 01:58:08 am
Did it break?
Of course. He was only on fire for a sec, area is soaked:
Spoiler: fighting back! (click to show/hide)
http://www.dha.com.tr/canli-yayin/
http://artibir.tv/canli-yayin
Post by: Myroc on June 11, 2013, 02:00:41 am
In addition, the people throwing molotov cocktails seem to be the civil police officers disguised as protestors, in an attempt to make the police look good.
This is merely what I've managed to discern from watching the streams, so if anyone has a clearer picture, feel free to correct me.
Post by: Mictlantecuhtli on June 11, 2013, 02:02:51 am
Maybe Fox will run image of this burning van?
They're construction workers as far as I can tell, bolted some barricades together and have holed up there. Protestors got forced into the corner and they won't budge.
Post by: Scelly9 on June 11, 2013, 02:03:35 am
Post by: Mictlantecuhtli on June 11, 2013, 02:05:58 am
Firing fireworks at police vehicles. That's gonna work. ::)
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: olemars on June 11, 2013, 02:32:06 am
It seems the police are spraying water mixed with pepper spray. I haven't been able to discern a solid confirmation yet, but as the water is a weird orange/red color, it seems evident that it's mixed with something.
Sounds like turkish police is learning from the egyptian police. They mixed water with sand.
Post by: Tarran on June 11, 2013, 02:35:05 am
Last I saw it looked like people were still protesting on a roof-thing over to the side of another street(?) with another barrier though.
Post by: Sheb on June 11, 2013, 04:14:41 am
@Myroc: How can you tell the molotovs thowers are policemen? Not that it surprise me, but I wonder how you can tell from a livefeed.
Post by: Myroc on June 11, 2013, 04:46:43 am
@Myroc: How can you tell the molotovs thowers are policemen? Not that it surprise me, but I wonder how you can tell from a livefeed.Not from watching the feed itself, but from the protestors commenting on it. The authenticy is debatable, but it seems rather odd that the protestors would suddenly start throwing freaking molotovs around.
Post by: SalmonGod on June 11, 2013, 04:58:27 am
@Myroc: How can you tell the molotovs thowers are policemen? Not that it surprise me, but I wonder how you can tell from a livefeed.Not from watching the feed itself, but from the protestors commenting on it. The authenticy is debatable, but it seems rather odd that the protestors would suddenly start throwing freaking molotovs around.
Especially when this first example of such behavior coincides with a major confrontation that was obviously planned by police. The fact that molotovs started flying as soon as police showed up means we're supposed to believe that the protesters just happened to be expecting that kind of attack, and prepared a bunch of molotovs in advance. I know they're not exactly time-consuming to prepare, but it sounds like a bunch of them were on hand immediately.
Post by: Sheb on June 11, 2013, 05:19:23 am
Post by: XXSockXX on June 11, 2013, 10:08:26 am
According to german media the protesters did use molotovs AFTER the police started using water cannons, tear gas (which they had promised not to use anymore on Taksim) and attacked brutally after arriving under the pretense of just clearing the area around an Atatürk monument.
Some media pics here (http://www.spiegel.de/fotostrecke/fotostrecke-tuerkische-polizei-stuermt-gezi-park-fotostrecke-97804.html) and here (http://www.zeit.de/politik/ausland/2013-06/fs-istanbul-taksim).
A german magazine that has a reporter there (http://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausland/tuerkische-polizei-stuermt-gezi-park-in-istanbul-a-905085.html) claims dozens of people (among them elderly women and female students) were badly injured, many suffered head wounds and at least one man died.
Apparently the meeting with protesters will not happen, as representatives didn't know about it. However 30 lawyers are reported to have been arrested. (http://www.welt.de/politik/ausland/article117023240/Erdogan-verkuendet-das-Ende-der-Toleranz.html) They had offered to defend protesters.
While protesters mobilize people via social media, Erdogan pulls something from Dictatorship 101 and mobilizes people, according to reddit (http://www.google.de/imgres?safe=off&sa=X&biw=1680&bih=911&tbs=qdr:d&tbm=isch&tbnid=r50HtSKnxZZOGM:&imgrefurl=http://www.reddit.com/r/pics/comments/1g1k50/released_picture_of_a_proerdogan_demonstration_in/&docid=pwScan4jqh3uUM&imgurl=http://i.imgur.com/ONgkdA6.jpg&w=960&h=636&ei=qOm2UfCoMoGDO_bogJgP&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=449&vpy=320&dur=56&hovh=183&hovw=276&tx=209&ty=58&page=1&tbnh=145&tbnw=231&start=0&ndsp=40&ved=1t:429,r:10,s:0,i:126), by poorly photoshopping them into press pictures. (http://www.focus.de/politik/ausland/zusaetzliche-anhaenger-erschummelt-fotos-von-pro-erdogan-demonstration-sollen-manipuliert-sein_aid_1011153.html)
(links are mostly in german, but you get the picture...)
Post by: Sheb on June 11, 2013, 10:18:42 am
Post by: XXSockXX on June 11, 2013, 10:22:01 am
That pictures is from 2009. (https://www.cnnturk.com/2009/turkiye/03/08/akpnin.mitingine.photoshop.ayari/516863.0/index.html)Ok. There goes my respect for german journalism. At least they didn't claim they'd verified it...
Post by: SalmonGod on June 11, 2013, 10:22:02 am
That pictures is from 2009. (https://www.cnnturk.com/2009/turkiye/03/08/akpnin.mitingine.photoshop.ayari/516863.0/index.html)
Pff... lazy dictators can't even come up with new material.
Post by: XXSockXX on June 11, 2013, 10:40:17 am
Turkish sources say 50 lawyers have been arrested. (http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/at-least-20-lawyers-detained-in-istanbul-for-supporting-gezi-park-protests.aspx?pageID=238&nID=48598&NewsCatID=341#.UbcLt73HR1k.twitter)
Post by: Owlbread on June 11, 2013, 10:57:22 am
I tried to go and see the square but the metro to that area was closed off. I talked to a waiter at a restaurant about it but he basically said that it's another part of the city - nothing to do with them. At that point two chaps in V for Vendetta masks walked past, the only ones I have seen yet. When I get back to bonnie Scotland I will upload a few pictures of the smoke. Smelled like burning tires.
Post by: XXSockXX on June 11, 2013, 11:06:05 am
Try to have a fun trip and don't get involved. Would be a huge blow to scottish independence if you were hurt or arrested. ;)
Post by: Owlbread on June 11, 2013, 11:11:38 am
Our authorities say it's still safe for tourists in Istanbul, but you should maybe avoid certain areas like Taksim and Besiktas and anything that looks like a gathering, because some tourists have been getting between the lines (though they probably had joined the protests).
Try to have a fun trip and don't get involved. Would be a huge blow to scottish independence if you were hurt or arrested. ;)
Thank you sir, I could have tried to make my way there on foot but it was a hell of a trek and, to be honest, after hearing bits about how bad it was I'd be too much of a cowardly custard to get close. I heard quite a few ambulances today, along with police cars.
It's quite disconcerting when you can hear the sirens and you can see the smoke, all the while fellows in sailor's caps and umbrella hats are still flogging their wares to tourists - "Hello my friend! Where you from? I have just the book for you my friend! Where you from? Hello my friend! Trip bosphorous! You want trip bosphorous two hour!"
Post by: Sheb on June 11, 2013, 11:15:56 am
Post by: XXSockXX on June 11, 2013, 11:29:21 am
Am I the only one who always get a pleasant adrenaline rush when I'm in a protest with police on the horizon and the faint odor of tear gas floating around?Not necessarily. But turkish prison is not a pleasant experience from what I hear. And when it has been stated repeatedly that people are wary of foreign involvement, there is no need to pull a Lord Byron ;).
It's quite disconcerting when you can hear the sirens and you can see the smoke, all the while fellows in sailor's caps and umbrella hats are still flogging their wares to tourists - "Hello my friend! Where you from? I have just the book for you my friend! Where you from? Hello my friend! Trip bosphorous! You want trip bosphorous two hour!"That must be somewhat surreal. Business must go on it seems...
Post by: Parsely on June 11, 2013, 05:13:34 pm
...They mixed water with sand.So the stream does more damage?
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on June 11, 2013, 05:30:00 pm
The term "sandblasting" is not misleading....They mixed water with sand.So the stream does more damage?
Post by: Parsely on June 11, 2013, 05:37:36 pm
Ow.The term "sandblasting" is not misleading....They mixed water with sand.So the stream does more damage?
Post by: Akura on June 11, 2013, 06:03:58 pm
Sandblasting is used to strip paint off surfaces, and probably using less pressure than is being used here. "Ow" might be an understatement.Ow.The term "sandblasting" is not misleading....They mixed water with sand.So the stream does more damage?
Post by: Parsely on June 11, 2013, 06:05:28 pm
That was my implication, yes.Sandblasting is used to strip paint off surfaces, and probably using less pressure than is being used here. "Ow" might be an understatement.Ow.The term "sandblasting" is not misleading....They mixed water with sand.So the stream does more damage?
Post by: SalmonGod on June 12, 2013, 01:43:55 am
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Zangi on June 12, 2013, 08:46:23 am
My favorite picture from the Turkish protests so far.Epic Slingshot GrannySpoiler (click to show/hide)
For some reason, I consider her Asian cause of the skin tone and the hairstyle. Can't see the eyes at all.
Post by: misko27 on June 12, 2013, 09:10:28 am
US embassy also is warning tourists with a general be careful, noting violence could escalate at any time.
Well, I guess it's another reason to have a shield then. Saw a number of protesters getting hosed down who had shields.That was my implication, yes.Sandblasting is used to strip paint off surfaces, and probably using less pressure than is being used here. "Ow" might be an understatement.Ow.The term "sandblasting" is not misleading....They mixed water with sand.So the stream does more damage?
Post by: mcclay on June 12, 2013, 11:24:43 am
Post by: Owlbread on June 12, 2013, 12:00:51 pm
Post by: FearfulJesuit on June 13, 2013, 08:14:20 pm
Post by: GlyphGryph on June 13, 2013, 08:36:34 pm
Post by: misko27 on June 14, 2013, 02:30:57 am
It's old news. He's cleared the park and basically told those he met with to fuck off and let him do what he wants.That is a impressive amount of not giving a fuck, even by Middle-eastern standards.
Post by: Morrigi on June 14, 2013, 08:07:29 am
Post by: Owlbread on June 14, 2013, 09:25:34 am
Turkey is hardly part of the Middle East, culturally at least.
I think that is very debatable.
Post by: AlmightyOne on June 14, 2013, 11:50:43 am
Maybe Turkey seems secular when compared to Middle East but non-Muslims are still being oppressed. I know lots of people keeping their true beliefs secret. It's not enough.Leatra himself said so before...
People, please don't compare Turkey to Middle East just because this is a Muslim country. Compare Turkey to the political history of itself. You can see Erdoğan turning normal schools into Islamic schools. The dude is building mosques and erecting long minarets everywhere. I don't think he is just compensating for something.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on June 14, 2013, 11:52:35 am
Post by: Morrigi on June 14, 2013, 01:53:07 pm
Post by: pisskop on June 14, 2013, 02:01:49 pm
Post by: Dutchling on June 14, 2013, 02:24:50 pm
Adding on to that, Turkey is incredibly westernized compared to countries like Iraq or Iran.It's too bad Turkey can only be considered (incredibly) westernised when you compare it to countries such as those you just mentioned.
Post by: Morrigi on June 14, 2013, 02:30:27 pm
Exceptionally? Extraordinarily? Extremely? :PAdding on to that, Turkey is incredibly westernized compared to countries like Iraq or Iran.It's too bad Turkey can only be considered (incredibly) westernised when you compare it to countries such as those you just mentioned.
Post by: Dutchling on June 14, 2013, 02:32:35 pm
Post by: 10ebbor10 on June 14, 2013, 03:36:11 pm
It's a top down change, and hence it's not that stable.
Post by: Furtuka on June 14, 2013, 03:57:31 pm
Post by: DWC on June 14, 2013, 06:55:34 pm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kemalist_ideology
Why is it regressing into theocracy now?
Post by: Askot Bokbondeler on June 14, 2013, 09:54:24 pm
Post by: 10ebbor10 on June 15, 2013, 03:36:46 am
So when they finally decided to just see what would happened, the AKP got in power. (Rural support helped a lot here). Then again, do note that this is not really a regression into theocracy. Rather, they seem to be moving towards a strong presidency, like Russia. The AKP fixed Turkey's economy, pushed through several democratic reforms*, and got reelected 3 times. They do have popular support.
*Installing popular election for several offices and such.
Post by: Willfor on June 15, 2013, 11:57:11 am
Post by: Haspen on June 15, 2013, 11:59:16 am
A rural population backing a party that has strong religious ties inside a democracy, I wonder where I've seen that political situation before. :P
In every democratic country, at least once?
Post by: Leatra on June 15, 2013, 01:31:37 pm
So... Turkey has a pretty long history of secular governance, right? Since 1920 or so?In the good ol' days, Erdoğan came off as a humble religious man trying to uphold the unpopular idea of Islamism. He was seen as "people's leader" of some sorts. He turned into this after 10 years of power. I watched some old videos of him speaking about various issues and he pretty much always contradicts with what he is now. He talked about how building the 3. bridge will destroy enviroment etc and now he is trying to demolish a park.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kemalist_ideology
Why is it regressing into theocracy now?
Democracy is like a tool for dictators now. Erdoğan said so himself, "Democracy is like a ship you had to take while trying to reach somewhere" or something like that.
Turks hate it when Turkey is being compared to Middle East. "People still think we are riding camels and wearing fes" is a common thing to say when people are talking about tourists. Anyway, if Turkey must be compared to a region other than Europe, than it would be better to compare it to Asian Turkic nations.
Anyway, AKP keeps trying to polarize the people. Nothing new really. People get paid 100 TLs for joining the AKP rallies and absentees get into trouble. I have even seen a woman at an AKP rally saying "We are behind Kılıçdaroğlu! (Main opposition party leader)." It's ridicilous to see how brainless some people can get.
AKP is trying to go for a referandum too, it seems. This didn't make the protestors happy, because protestors are the minority. It's like if Hitler made a referendum about something which Jews hate but Nazis love. This further supports my theory about how Erdoğan misunderstoods Democracy as something like "Dominance of the majority over the minority"
Seems Turkish to me. Could be an Asian Turk. Not only Chinese and Japanese people have that "Asian" look you know :DMy favorite picture from the Turkish protests so far.Epic Slingshot GrannySpoiler (click to show/hide)
For some reason, I consider her Asian cause of the skin tone and the hairstyle. Can't see the eyes at all.
It's amazing how a protest bring people together. This isn't a young movement anymore. I have seen people in their 70s and 80s protesting in Taksim. There are also lots of women. You can hear women's screams louder than men's when chanting a slogan sometimes.
Cutting this short. I might be absent for a long time.
Post by: Haspen on June 15, 2013, 01:33:44 pm
Post by: olemars on June 15, 2013, 01:39:17 pm
Post by: XXSockXX on June 15, 2013, 02:24:01 pm
The show is back on in Taksim according to live news. Police going in with teargas and watercannons.Just saw that too. Apparently they have cleard Taksim and Gezi Park for now, with many people injured again and many arrested. Erdogan had given the protesters an ultimatum to leave the place until tomorrow, so that shows again how reliable his promises are.
Post by: olemars on June 15, 2013, 04:29:36 pm
Edit:
Quote from: Releveant quote from article
Erdogan had delivered his warning at a rally of tens of thousands of supporters of his AKP party in Ankara promising that the square would be cleared by Sunday in time for a second rally there. "We have our Istanbul rally tomorrow," Erdogan warned. "I say it clearly: Taksim Square must be evacuated, otherwise this country's security forces know how to evacuate it."
Post by: Yannanth on June 16, 2013, 06:59:35 am
Post by: 10ebbor10 on June 16, 2013, 07:07:08 am
Quote
Everyone who enters Istanbul’s Taksim Square, the heart of nearly 20-day-long protests against the government, will be considered a member or a supporter of a terrorist organization
Quote from: Releveant quote from articleErdogan had delivered his warning at a rally of tens of thousands of supporters of his AKP party in Ankara promising that the square would be cleared by Sunday in time for a second rally there. "We have our Istanbul rally tomorrow," Erdogan warned. "I say it clearly: Taksim Square must be evacuated, otherwise this country's security forces know how to evacuate it."
The AKP just declared itself a terroristical organisation?
Post by: DarkWolfXV on June 16, 2013, 09:43:54 am
Post by: SalmonGod on June 16, 2013, 09:45:06 am
Post by: Sheb on June 16, 2013, 10:37:27 am
Post by: SalmonGod on June 16, 2013, 10:39:29 am
OC? That'd be pepper spray, in a water cannon.
Oh, duh :P
I just don't see it referred to as OC Spray very often, and OC Solution is even further off.
Post by: Dutchling on June 16, 2013, 11:16:50 am
Post by: LordSlowpoke on June 16, 2013, 12:19:01 pm
Post by: Leatra on June 16, 2013, 01:18:39 pm
Wow Turkey, you just went full Arab. Erdogan is blaming the Jews (http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4392414,00.html) for the protests. Never go full Arab.I know, right? Someone should shake Erdoğan and tell him to ease up on the Arab throttle. We got enough dictators in the East.
Edit: man, this is gold. The police chief just played the terrorist card (http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/everyone-who-enters-the-taksim-square-to-be-treated-as-terrorist-turkish-eu-minister.aspx?pageID=238&nID=48875&NewsCatID=338). So much popcorn, hahaha.
Police is definitely mixing something but I don't know what it is. I saw people puking their guts out. This can't be just pepper spray. A volunteer doctor helping the wounded around the area confirmed this.
What would a leader do in this situation? He would try to calm the population right? Erdoğan? Nope. He is just gathering an even bigger rally to oppose the protesters. Erdoğan is someone who would push his nation into a civil war just so he won't have to apologize.
Post by: Owlbread on June 16, 2013, 03:22:58 pm
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on June 16, 2013, 03:28:41 pm
Post by: Owlbread on June 16, 2013, 03:34:55 pm
Don't listen to him. Owlbread is clearly an AKP infiltrator attempting to lay the groundwork for the Scot-Turk Caliphate. We're onto your game!
You laugh, you joke... but at the back of your mind you wonder.
Post by: Descan on June 16, 2013, 05:25:25 pm
Post by: Owlbread on June 16, 2013, 06:35:15 pm
All you need is Portugal and Finland and you can have Europe surrounded.
I am sure it can be arranged.
Post by: misko27 on June 16, 2013, 08:14:20 pm
Post by: Owlbread on June 16, 2013, 10:08:13 pm
Nah. Because That would imply the Turks can cover the Balkans anymore, which is, a bit of a leap.
Well from their position they have influence over the Balkans, the whole of the Black Sea region, much of the Eastern Mediterranean; they've got that corner basically covered, they don't necessarily need to invade Serbia or something to "have it covered".
Post by: misko27 on June 16, 2013, 10:16:58 pm
They spent a very long period of their history being held by something or another. Now it has enough AKs to make sure it never happens again (there is a Serbian song entitled "Kalishnikov") That's why we kill each other, on the off chance someone gets a funny idea.
Post by: Owlbread on June 16, 2013, 10:34:16 pm
Oh no, not necessarily Serbia, just the whole freaking region.
They spent a very long period of their history being held by something or another. Now it has enough AKs to make sure it never happens again (there is a Serbian song entitled "Kalishnikov") That's why we kill each other, on the off chance someone gets a funny idea.
Again, I wasn't really talking about invasion or anything; they don't need to go that far. They just have "influence".
Post by: XXSockXX on June 16, 2013, 10:56:07 pm
I thought the internet generally sees OC as a good thing?I wouldn't know, never been to Orange County.
German media have reported that they mixed something into the water (a politician visiting Gezi Park got sprayed), but didn't explain what exactly it was.
Post by: SalmonGod on June 18, 2013, 01:46:37 am
Quote
As anti-government protests continue to gain momentum in Turkey, they are also getting more creative. Last night, in the middle of the now infamous Taksim Square, a man in a white shirt stood in complete stillness, staring at the large Turkish flag and poster of Mustafa Kemal Ataturk on the nearby Ataturk Cultural Centre. The man had a sports bag to his side, planted on the floor. People in and around Taksim Square initially took little notice of the man.
Hours passed. The Turkish police, who have been on guard in Taksim to prevent protests, eventually noticed the man and headed over. They asked him several questions and searched his bag. The man didn't respond, continuing to stare into the distance.
It soon became obvious the man was staging a new kind of protest -- one he hoped would encourage a new, creative way of voicing opposition to the ongoing police brutality and oppression of basic human rights in Turkey.
Meanwhile, the hashtag #duranadam, or standing man, became the number one trending topic worldwide on Twitter. The power of the silent protest quickly went viral on social media. People from all around Turkey and the world have posted images of their own "standing man" photo ...
As support for the protest grew on social media, so did the actual protest at Taksim Square. Hundreds of passers-by stood next to the man in the white shirt, staring in stillness in the same direction.
A person claiming to be the man's housemate wrote on Twitter that the protest would continue for the next month, and that every three hours, there'd be a shift change, where someone else would take over the protest.
But it was short-lived. Police -- despite their initial confusion over what to do -- arrested the man in the white shirt, as well as the several people around him.
He was let go a few hours later. When asked by police why he was standing there, he replied: "I'm waiting for my friend." The police asked who his friend was, to which the man replied: "Ethem Sarisuluk". Sarisuluk is the latest casualty of police violence in Turkey who died on the weekend following being shot at his head with a tear gas bottle.
The single man's act of defiance has now turned into a global phenomenon, with photos being posted on Twitter. Or as the country's Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan refers to it, the menace of society.
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-a-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-frc3/954853_655138341167217_304835442_n.jpg)
Post by: Slayerhero90 on June 18, 2013, 01:51:56 am
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-a-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-frc3/954853_655138341167217_304835442_n.jpg)That's fuckin' beautiful.
Post by: RedWarrior0 on June 18, 2013, 01:55:57 am
Post by: Sheb on June 18, 2013, 05:02:38 am
Post by: Morrigi on June 19, 2013, 03:40:19 am
Post by: XXSockXX on June 19, 2013, 05:22:29 am
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Dutchling on June 19, 2013, 05:23:06 am
Post by: SalmonGod on June 19, 2013, 05:25:44 am
"I'm waiting for someone"
"Who?"
"[name of person killed by police]"
Post by: XXSockXX on June 19, 2013, 05:27:56 am
Is it Ataturk or Erdohan on next to the flag?Atatürk. That's the Ataturk Cultural Center mentioned in the article above, I think.
The statement to the police is what really ties it together beautifully, for me.Right. That is what other people tell the police too, it seems. I've read about a woman in Ankara who stood at a place where a protester was killed and said she waited for him. If you google "duranadam" and "durankadin" you can see lots of pictures of people just standing around in cities.
"I'm waiting for someone"
"Who?"
"[name of person killed by police]"
That's the woman I think:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: 10ebbor10 on June 19, 2013, 06:20:07 am
Post by: Leatra on June 20, 2013, 10:34:37 am
So wait, that was the thing they were going to demolish because it isn't quake safe. Strange, as their overhauled it five years ago.Atatürk Cultural Center? As a matter of fact, it came close to getting demolished by itself because of the overwhelming number of protestors inside the building. People are rather careful with that place now. Of course, the government only cares about if their mosques are standing tall. I'm telling you, this love they have with minarets is... unsettling.
That "standing man" protest got really famous. It showed how stupid police can get, arresting people who are standing still and whatnot. Yeah, burn protestor tents all you want but at least don't arrest people who are "waiting for a friend".
Someone from the green party, if I remember right. We are getting famous for our quality pepper spray now. No advertisement could be better than this.I thought the internet generally sees OC as a good thing?I wouldn't know, never been to Orange County.
German media have reported that they mixed something into the water (a politician visiting Gezi Park got sprayed), but didn't explain what exactly it was.
Turkish pepper spray! Not only your eyes will bleed out, you will have a beatiful red skin and you will puke your guts out for hours! Weight loss guaranteed! Call us now! First 100 buyers will get a gas grenade launcher so they can shoot your friends in the head!
EDIT: I'm on a hurry now, but can you guys do a "christiane amanpour takvim" search in Google and laugh your asses off at ass-licking Turkish media's desperate attempts? They actually seem like they believe their own lies,
Post by: misko27 on June 20, 2013, 06:19:54 pm
Quote
Amanpour was quoted as saying that petroleum, alcoholic beverage companies and finance lobbies had "threatened" the network into covering the anti-government protests that rocked Turkey.Big Oil, Big Business and Big Beer, truly the fiendish Trifecta of Evil behind it all.
Post by: XXSockXX on June 20, 2013, 06:37:11 pm
Someone from the green party, if I remember right. We are getting famous for our quality pepper spray now. No advertisement could be better than this.Yeah, it was Claudia Roth, leader of the Green Party (they have 2, the other one, Cem Özdemir, had visited Gezi Park earlier). She got a bit of criticism for putting herself in such a situation, but overall it made for a big story. Turkey is still a big story anyways, but a first-hand account of a politician who said "This was like war" gets attention.
EDIT: I'm on a hurry now, but can you guys do a "christiane amanpour takvim" search in Google and laugh your asses off at ass-licking Turkish media's desperate attempts? They actually seem like they believe their own lies,
It's incredibly idiotic that they thought they'd get away with that fake Amanpour interview in this day and age. Though their intended audience are probably rural or conseravtive people who are unlikely to check up on this on the internet.
Post by: Owlbread on June 20, 2013, 06:41:59 pm
QuoteAmanpour was quoted as saying that petroleum, alcoholic beverage companies and finance lobbies had "threatened" the network into covering the anti-government protests that rocked Turkey.Big Oil, Big Business and Big Beer, truly the fiendish Trifecta of Evil behind it all.
Just throw in a bit of anti-semitism in there (international Jewish conspiracy) and we've got the ball rolling.
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on June 20, 2013, 06:48:30 pm
Post by: Mictlantecuhtli on June 20, 2013, 09:26:05 pm
(And of course promptly handed it over to their alien lizardman masters. That is what Judaism is about, right?)
Yes. Now take your Lizard yamaka, bubi.
Post by: Jimmy on June 21, 2013, 04:41:04 am
First page of Google News. Seems there's finally some international attention to this issue.
Post by: XXSockXX on June 21, 2013, 04:48:30 am
Sometimes I wonder if Israel is flattered by all the things that are attributed to them. If they were really as competent as they are said to be they long since would have taken over the worldYou know, antisemitic consensus seems to be that they already have taken over, that you don't realize that just proves how well they are hiding the truth.
Just throw in a bit of anti-semitism in there (international Jewish conspiracy) and we've got the ball rolling.
Unfortunately (but not unexpectedly) we already had that ball rolling a few pages ago:
Wow Turkey, you just went full Arab. Erdogan is blaming the Jews (http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4392414,00.html) for the protests. Never go full Arab.
Post by: Askot Bokbondeler on June 21, 2013, 09:23:48 am
Post by: Leatra on June 21, 2013, 10:24:46 am
Damn right. The ignorance runs deep in rural areas. They probably believed that fake interview. The backlash means nothing to Takvim (the newspaper that created this lie), they know they managed to catch the attention of people from rural areas and it's enough for them.Someone from the green party, if I remember right. We are getting famous for our quality pepper spray now. No advertisement could be better than this.Yeah, it was Claudia Roth, leader of the Green Party (they have 2, the other one, Cem Özdemir, had visited Gezi Park earlier). She got a bit of criticism for putting herself in such a situation, but overall it made for a big story. Turkey is still a big story anyways, but a first-hand account of a politician who said "This was like war" gets attention.
EDIT: I'm on a hurry now, but can you guys do a "christiane amanpour takvim" search in Google and laugh your asses off at ass-licking Turkish media's desperate attempts? They actually seem like they believe their own lies,
It's incredibly idiotic that they thought they'd get away with that fake Amanpour interview in this day and age. Though their intended audience are probably rural or conseravtive people who are unlikely to check up on this on the internet.
Turkey is a country where the poor is voting for an Islamist right party and the middle income people (I don't like saying "middle class") is voting for a Kemalist centre-left party. Rich people... well, it depends. If they something to gain from a government like this, they side with AKP, if not, then they side with a leftist party.
AKP resorts to vote-buying all the time, and the poor is happy with all the help they are getting so they keep voting for AKP. There is also the rumor of rigged elections. Some people from the communist party catched some people rummaging through a ballot box. Not sure if it's true or not.
Erdoğan's authoritarian ways were still easy to notice years earlier. I mean, do you guys have a Barrack Obama University there? We have an university named after Erdoğan, and some mosques and high schools named after him too. When a country starts naming schools, mosques and even universities after the PM, than it ought to hint you something about the regime.
My university has the picture of the guy just at the entrance, and I have to see that dictator every fucking time when I have lessons. I don't think my university is in love with him, but taking the pic town would attract unwanted attention. At least we don't have his statue.
Post by: majikero on June 21, 2013, 10:29:09 am
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on June 21, 2013, 10:55:36 am
Post by: XXSockXX on June 21, 2013, 11:02:07 am
Post by: AlmightyOne on June 23, 2013, 07:39:46 am
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/06/22/erdogan-turkey-brazil_n_3483639.html?utm_hp_ref=world
Post by: Dutchling on June 23, 2013, 11:45:06 am
Post by: Leatra on June 24, 2013, 11:05:54 am
When the media was a bit more sympathetic to Erdogan they used to point out that he tried to portray himself as a sort-of second Atatürk, a second father of the nation who tried to reconcile Atatürk's reforms with moderate islam. Of course the whole personal cult thing is always a pretty good indication of authoritarianism.What? He hates Atatürk. Atatürk is the last thing he would want to portray. He even called Atatürk a drunkard once. He is more like late Ottoman rulers and his supporters usually hail him as a caliphate.
Lol, Now look what Erdogan is saying about the Brazil protests.Heh. Same old, same old. He keeps saying things like, "It's all a conspiracy! Foreign agents want to overthrow us!" This guy is hilarious. He even said "I'm not a dictator!" which reminded me of "I'm not a crook!" :D
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/06/22/erdogan-turkey-brazil_n_3483639.html?utm_hp_ref=world
The cop who shot and killed Ethem Sarısülük is released. I knew I was wishing for too much when I wanted him to get arrested for murder. Oh well.
Post by: Dutchling on June 24, 2013, 11:13:16 am
Post by: XXSockXX on June 24, 2013, 05:25:57 pm
That was meant as "as important to Turkey as Atatürk", without ideological implications. Basically he wants to be as revered as Atatürk traditionally was/is, while he ideological moves the country away from Atatürk's legacy. And as I said, that was a media opinion from a few years ago, when Erdogan's authoritarianism and islamism seemed less obvious.When the media was a bit more sympathetic to Erdogan they used to point out that he tried to portray himself as a sort-of second Atatürk, a second father of the nation who tried to reconcile Atatürk's reforms with moderate islam. Of course the whole personal cult thing is always a pretty good indication of authoritarianism.What? He hates Atatürk. Atatürk is the last thing he would want to portray. He even called Atatürk a drunkard once. He is more like late Ottoman rulers and his supporters usually hail him as a caliphate.
The cop who shot and killed Ethem Sarısülük is released. I knew I was wishing for too much when I wanted him to get arrested for murder. Oh well.I've seen something about that on tv, they basically let the cops get away with anything while doctors who provided medical assistance to protesters are persecuted and threatened with losing their license.
Last weekend the Alevite community organized a demo in Cologne, with about 40000 people attending. That was the biggest support rally here so far. Also a lot of creative work by protesters circling in the news media. (http://www.sueddeutsche.de/politik/occupygezi-es-reicht-wir-rufen-gleich-die-polizei-1.1702861) (slogans are only translated to german though)
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Steelmagic on June 24, 2013, 08:21:41 pm
Of course it's a conspiracy. It's being perpetrated by The Queen of England who also assassinated JFK while being mind controlled by aliens.Lol, Now look what Erdogan is saying about the Brazil protests.Heh. Same old, same old. He keeps saying things like, "It's all a conspiracy! Foreign agents want to overthrow us!" This guy is hilarious. He even said "I'm not a dictator!" which reminded me of "I'm not a crook!" :D
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/06/22/erdogan-turkey-brazil_n_3483639.html?utm_hp_ref=world
Post by: Morrigi on June 24, 2013, 08:55:39 pm
QuoteAmanpour was quoted as saying that petroleum, alcoholic beverage companies and finance lobbies had "threatened" the network into covering the anti-government protests that rocked Turkey.Big Oil, Big Business and Big Beer, truly the fiendish Trifecta of Evil behind it all.
Just throw in a bit of anti-semitism in there (international Jewish conspiracy) and we've got the ball rolling.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: RedWarrior0 on June 24, 2013, 09:09:46 pm
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on June 24, 2013, 09:18:14 pm
Post by: Owlbread on June 24, 2013, 09:22:28 pm
Post by: Kaferian on June 24, 2013, 11:31:24 pm
He should really be Indonesia ball with that colour scheme.Polandball is always supposed to be upside-down.
Post by: Leatra on June 27, 2013, 02:47:29 pm
This is slowly turning into an art movement. People draw pictures, develop games and do graffiti across the country with themes of revolution, corrupt governments, and environmentalism.
Anything on the military's stance in the unrest?Not much. Turkey has conscription so it's kinda risky for Erdoğan to go for military intervention. I don't think they'll side with cops if that happens. The only thing I saw was a group of soldiers in Hakkari holding a paper that says "Resist, Gezi Park, Hakkari soldiers are with you". Also, one time the police tried to enter a military hospital with a police truck because it was a shortcut or something. Soldiers denied them access and the police had to leave the area. One of the cops said "We will throw gas bombs next time" and a soldier replied with "Go ahead and throw them. We will throw something else." Heh, imagine cops and soldiers fighting against each other with gas and frag grenades flying around. Raining down gas bombs at hospitals is something our police force seems to love anyway.
Alevis have been persecuted against by the Turkish government for years now. A group of fundamentalist Islamists massacred around 30 Alevis some years ago in Sivas, and the government allowed the murderers to walk free. Imagine how they see atheists if they are this intolerant against people who just happens to believe in a different school of thought of Islam.That was meant as "as important to Turkey as Atatürk", without ideological implications. Basically he wants to be as revered as Atatürk traditionally was/is, while he ideological moves the country away from Atatürk's legacy. And as I said, that was a media opinion from a few years ago, when Erdogan's authoritarianism and islamism seemed less obvious.When the media was a bit more sympathetic to Erdogan they used to point out that he tried to portray himself as a sort-of second Atatürk, a second father of the nation who tried to reconcile Atatürk's reforms with moderate islam. Of course the whole personal cult thing is always a pretty good indication of authoritarianism.What? He hates Atatürk. Atatürk is the last thing he would want to portray. He even called Atatürk a drunkard once. He is more like late Ottoman rulers and his supporters usually hail him as a caliphate.The cop who shot and killed Ethem Sarısülük is released. I knew I was wishing for too much when I wanted him to get arrested for murder. Oh well.I've seen something about that on tv, they basically let the cops get away with anything while doctors who provided medical assistance to protesters are persecuted and threatened with losing their license.
Last weekend the Alevite community organized a demo in Cologne, with about 40000 people attending. That was the biggest support rally here so far. Also a lot of creative work by protesters circling in the news media. (http://www.sueddeutsche.de/politik/occupygezi-es-reicht-wir-rufen-gleich-die-polizei-1.1702861) (slogans are only translated to german though)Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Anyway, situation is still the same. People are getting fired from their jobs when they talk too much about Gezi Park events. Legal stuff is still going on with complicated and slow cases but I don't see any importance of them. Erdoğan changes the laws and uses loopholes when he realizes laws are working against him so there is probably not much to gain through courts. There are at least a hundred cases of police brutality but most cops are being found innocent like the little innocent angels they are. The case about Gezi Park is still going on and it will probably go on for a good while.
Police is still attacking when they feel like it, protestors run away when police gets overzealous and then they claim key protest areas back when the police is absent again. The police is kinda over exhausted too. I have seen countless photos of cops sleeping on the street, with their armor on. Paid vacation for the police was cancelled but after the understandable reaction from the police, the cancellation itself was cancelled. I also heard about lots of police officers leaving their jobs too.
Post by: Scoops Novel on June 27, 2013, 04:38:33 pm
Post by: Descan on June 27, 2013, 04:53:18 pm
Post by: Mephansteras on June 27, 2013, 04:55:19 pm
Not much. Turkey has conscription so it's kinda risky for Erdoğan to go for military intervention. I don't think they'll side with cops if that happens. The only thing I saw was a group of soldiers in Hakkari holding a paper that says "Resist, Gezi Park, Hakkari soldiers are with you". Also, one time the police tried to enter a military hospital with a police truck because it was a shortcut or something. Soldiers denied them access and the police had to leave the area. One of the cops said "We will throw gas bombs next time" and a soldier replied with "Go ahead and throw them. We will throw something else." Heh, imagine cops and soldiers fighting against each other with gas and frag grenades flying around. Raining down gas bombs at hospitals is something our police force seems to love anyway.
I love the arrogance of that. What kind of idiot thinks the military is afraid of tear gas?
Post by: Zangi on June 28, 2013, 08:08:29 am
One who forgets that the military is primarily equipped to kill, unlike the police.Not much. Turkey has conscription so it's kinda risky for Erdoğan to go for military intervention. I don't think they'll side with cops if that happens. The only thing I saw was a group of soldiers in Hakkari holding a paper that says "Resist, Gezi Park, Hakkari soldiers are with you". Also, one time the police tried to enter a military hospital with a police truck because it was a shortcut or something. Soldiers denied them access and the police had to leave the area. One of the cops said "We will throw gas bombs next time" and a soldier replied with "Go ahead and throw them. We will throw something else." Heh, imagine cops and soldiers fighting against each other with gas and frag grenades flying around. Raining down gas bombs at hospitals is something our police force seems to love anyway.
I love the arrogance of that. What kind of idiot thinks the military is afraid of tear gas?
Sometimes, you can forget that when your stuff has been working consistently on unarmed people for the past few weeks and been getting/forcing your way without proper pushback.
Post by: Sheb on July 01, 2013, 02:55:32 am
Also, there is a treaty somewhere banning the use of tear gas in warfare.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on July 03, 2013, 10:10:54 am
Post by: DJ on July 03, 2013, 04:19:17 pm
Or someone that know that the soldier ain't going to shoot to kill and doesn't have the gear to answer in a non-lethal fashion.A soldier loyal to the government won't shoot to kill. Tear gassing soldiers is a great way to incite a coup.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on July 03, 2013, 04:25:38 pm
Post by: Dutchling on July 03, 2013, 04:27:34 pm
Sadly, the latter isn't likely to happen unless we find some aliens, or another universal enemy, to shoot at.Or if the EU keeps adding new members :v
WHEN WILL MURRICA JOIN!?
Post by: 10ebbor10 on July 03, 2013, 04:30:15 pm
And Murrica won't join. The union is one of values, like peace, democracy, freedom and stuff like that.
Knowing human psychology, we'd have pasifisicm wars or something. ((In which it is the point to kill at little as possible. The winner is the person who can survive longest on a single leaf of lettuce.))Sadly, the latter isn't likely to happen unless we find some aliens, or another universal enemy, to shoot at.Or some aliens visit with some kind of weird ass pacifism bomb.
Post by: Zangi on July 03, 2013, 05:15:36 pm
That is mass mind control... and if they can do weird ass 'pacifism bombs' they can do much worse. Fight the invaders.Knowing human psychology, we'd have pasifisicm wars or something. ((In which it is the point to kill at little as possible. The winner is the person who can survive longest on a single leaf of lettuce.))Sadly, the latter isn't likely to happen unless we find some aliens, or another universal enemy, to shoot at.Or some aliens visit with some kind of weird ass pacifism bomb.
Post by: Hiiri on July 03, 2013, 05:33:22 pm
The union is one of values, like peace, democracy, freedom and stuff like that.
Spoiler: Off-topic response (click to show/hide)
Post by: Descan on July 03, 2013, 06:15:35 pm
Post by: Hiiri on July 03, 2013, 09:24:51 pm
Post by: Slayerhero90 on July 04, 2013, 12:41:24 am
Did he now? If so, I apologize for being an idiot. Hearing 'murica and those three words in a same paragraphYou could, you know, go up and check what he said instead of asking, "did he now?".throws me into an uncontrollable ragemakes me mildly displeased.
Post by: SalmonGod on July 04, 2013, 01:02:43 am
Did he now? If so, I apologize for being an idiot. Hearing 'murica and those three words in a same paragraphYou could, you know, go up and check what he said instead of asking, "did he now?".throws me into an uncontrollable ragemakes me mildly displeased.
Don't think that was meant to be phrased as a literal question.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on July 04, 2013, 01:10:22 am
Did he now? If so, I apologize for being an idiot. Hearing 'murica and those three words in a same paragraphActually, I meant both unions. Funny it is that while both complain to defend the same values, they're not really compatible.throws me into an uncontrollable ragemakes me mildly displeased.
Post by: Slayerhero90 on July 04, 2013, 01:14:16 am
There's also the "if so".Did he now? If so, I apologize for being an idiot. Hearing 'murica and those three words in a same paragraphYou could, you know, go up and check what he said instead of asking, "did he now?".throws me into an uncontrollable ragemakes me mildly displeased.
Don't think that was meant to be phrased as a literal question.
Post by: XXSockXX on July 04, 2013, 08:22:29 am
The source for the AKP speaker is in german, the quote is "I curse the dirty coup in Egypt." :)
Post by: Scoops Novel on July 12, 2013, 12:10:55 pm
Post by: XXSockXX on July 12, 2013, 02:23:57 pm
Post by: AlmightyOne on July 12, 2013, 02:58:15 pm
Post by: XXSockXX on July 12, 2013, 03:17:25 pm
Post by: olemars on July 12, 2013, 03:23:23 pm
Post by: XXSockXX on July 12, 2013, 03:41:29 pm
Post by: Scoops Novel on July 12, 2013, 04:48:55 pm
Post by: XXSockXX on July 12, 2013, 05:14:11 pm
I'll leave a link here (http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proteste_in_der_T%C3%BCrkei_2013#Verlauf_der_Ereignisse), in case anybody is interested. Google translator pretty much sucks with German though.
Post by: Leatra on July 13, 2013, 11:58:06 am
Thanks for the information. How big are the general strikes? What impact are they having? Is Erdogan's internal party support weakening?There is some infighting between AKP politicians but since most of them are like leeches sucking power and wealth out of this country, I'm sure they won't abandon their daddy Erdoğan.
Worker class didn't have a big effect. They dropped the job for a few days, joined the protests for a short time, but that's it. It's appalling. I know Erdoğan is a powerful dictator but I don't think unions would sell themselves. The majority of the protestors are students right now.
How many cops are defecting?Well, the word is the pressure on cops caused a few of them to commit suicide but I'm not sure if it's true or not. They would probably use it in the media like "Protestors killed a peaceful police officer!" or something like that. Only 3-5 cops resigned. The police force is a little different in Turkey. It's a long story but to become a cop you have to join Fetullah Gülen's cult. If you are in Fetullah's cult they give you the exam answers so you'll have no difficulty in the academy. You get some fundamentalist brainwashing from there after you graduate. That explains why there aren't many cops defecting and the hatred they display when engaging the protestors. It's possible to become a cop without getting mixed in with the cult but it's like there are 5-10 cops in every 300 recruits. Fetullah Gülen is Erdoğan's best pal so AKP is cool with it. Two fundamentalist idiots scratching each others backs. You guys must have heard about it, it's nothing new.
Yup, using tear gas is banned under the third Geneva conference, together with all other poison gasses (ie, they didn't make an exception). Which is a fairly sad thing, as house to house fighting could be greatly simplified with it.Hmm, it's kind of funny how it's allowed on unarmed people. They should at least don't fire them into apartments. Gas bombs can be really dangerous when it activates inside a building. And when they fire it into a closed window, the glass can get into your eye or something because of the canister's momentum. The glass tends to slow down the canister at least.
No soldier is loyal to government in Turkey but they don't seem likely to start a coup right now. Erdoğan threw a lot of high-ranking soldiers into jail so the military is kinda harmless for now.Or someone that know that the soldier ain't going to shoot to kill and doesn't have the gear to answer in a non-lethal fashion.A soldier loyal to the government won't shoot to kill. Tear gassing soldiers is a great way to incite a coup.
The turkish foreign minister (http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/07/04/us-egypt-protests-turkey-idUSBRE9630AJ20130704)and an AKP speaker (http://www.welt.de/politik/ausland/article117718520/Ankara-fordert-sofortige-Freilassung-Mursis.html)have condemned the military coup in Egypt. Looks like that one hit too close to home.Oh whatcha gonna do, whatcha gonna do when your ideological buddy gets his ass kicked and there is the possibility of the same thing happening to you? Yeah, that's what happens when you use religions to further your personal agenda. That's why I believe religions are harmful to humanity. The corrupted politicians are getting what's coming to them, I just hope we will have a less bloody (and coupless) version of Egypt.
The source for the AKP speaker is in german, the quote is "I curse the dirty coup in Egypt." :)
No news from Leatra too...almost a week now.Heh, sorry. I don't have internet at home and I'm kind of busy these days.
Well, he said he wouldn't have much internet access over the summer. But apparently the protests aren't as big anymore since the Gezi Park camp was cleared. The media seems to have lost interest a bit too. At least the german wikipedia has a day to day overview of the protests with turkish sources.Well, there are still things happening here and there. Here is a summary.
A festival named "1. Gas-Man Festival" took place in Taksim. There were lots of dancing. A lot of artists and musicians showed their support to the protestors. No police intervention. They couldn't dare.
AKP opened the Gezi Park for the people, (a poor attempt at gathering the loyalists there if you ask me) and then quickly closed it again when people started protesting them again. These AKP guys are funny.
Another dead. A man was beaten to death by AKP loyalists. This increases the official dead count to five.
An AKP loyalist carrying a machete attacked the protestors. You can see him attacking a woman here. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fHw0RasqfaM) I saw the video of this man casually chatting with police with the machete in his hands but I can't find it right now. You know, this passive resistance bullshit can sometimes get on your nerves.
I think I already told about this but I'm gonna do it again anyway. A mosque (Dolmabahçe Mosque) which was very close to Taksim was turned into a temporary hospital. Here is a recording from the mosque. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yuBbhfT_Qm0) Erdoğan's comment? "They walked into that sacred mosque with their dirty shoes and they even drank alcohol in there!" The müezzin (The person who issues the call to prayer from one of the minarets of a mosque, the weird Arabian words you hear from mosques comes from these fellas) comment? "I'm a man of Allah. I cannot lie. I didn't see anyone drinking in the mosque" Ba-dum-tish!
There are more but that's all I can share atm. I'll log in more regularly from now on though. Feel free to ask any questions
Post by: AlmightyOne on July 14, 2013, 01:38:01 pm
Okay so the situation is mainly with students now and the media has lost interest too since nothing 'big' is happening, was really curious because of the media silence on it, I thought it died off or something.
I found that out reading this, really strange the tear gas is not allowed to be used by soldiers but allowed for police.
Quote
Well, the word is the pressure on cops..."The word is", I always wanted to say that...it feels like in the movies.
Post by: DWC on July 15, 2013, 02:54:38 pm
Post by: 10ebbor10 on July 16, 2013, 12:39:28 am
Post by: misko27 on July 16, 2013, 01:39:04 am
Not really. We kinda moved into the winter now, and the cricket of democratic idealism is starving.Winter? Fall, more likely. Winter is reserved for those long endless nights. As for now, food is scarce, and it is getting colder and colder, and winter seems on the horizon. There is some heat left, now if it could be used to help things out before it all goes away.
But when Winter comes? It won't be trumpeted. That's how you know it's winter.
Post by: Sergarr on July 16, 2013, 02:38:37 am
Post by: Digital Hellhound on July 16, 2013, 08:34:47 am
Post by: LordSlowpoke on July 16, 2013, 08:42:28 am
I think we can all agree the greatest revolution was the Agricultural Revolution.
cornish rebellion greatest revolution all the years no questions asked
Post by: Owlbread on July 16, 2013, 10:00:17 am
I think we can all agree the greatest revolution was the Agricultural Revolution.
cornish rebellion greatest revolution all the years no questions asked
1497, never forget. Keskerdh Kernow.
That said, the words of one of the rebel leaders before his execution may ring true for Turkey:
"Speak the truth and only then can you be free of your chains"
Post by: Scoops Novel on August 21, 2013, 01:51:36 pm
Post by: Zangi on August 21, 2013, 08:43:26 pm
What has been happening there? Is Leatra ok?
Post by: Mictlantecuhtli on December 11, 2013, 04:33:07 am
I've realized this all died down very suddenly for an event that seemed so strong. Just hope Leatra is alright.
Post by: SalmonGod on January 18, 2014, 03:03:35 pm
Post by: Parsely on January 18, 2014, 03:08:05 pm
Post by: Baffler on January 18, 2014, 08:35:00 pm
Post by: misko27 on January 18, 2014, 08:42:15 pm
Spoiler: Text Wall (click to show/hide)
Post by: Steelmagic on January 18, 2014, 09:40:09 pm
Post by: XXSockXX on January 19, 2014, 07:44:29 am
The riots have died down a bit, but not completely. (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/dec/28/erdogan-pressure-quit-turkey-protests) There have been political parties formed out of the movement. Erdogan currently gets a lot of criticism for his handling of a big corruption affair. (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jan/12/turkey-judicial-reforms-recep-tayyip-erdogan)
Post by: Helgoland on January 19, 2014, 10:34:08 am
Post by: Slayerhero90 on January 19, 2014, 12:57:24 pm
PTW, why didn't I notice this before?It has been dead for a while, but concern for Leatra's grown enough to keep it a few posts a day.
Post by: Parsely on January 19, 2014, 01:22:22 pm
Leatra mentioned several times that he doesn't have internet at home or readily available, so I guess he's ok and just didn't post.Oh! That's good! :D Where did he say that?
The riots have died down a bit, but not completely. (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/dec/28/erdogan-pressure-quit-turkey-protests) There have been political parties formed out of the movement. Erdogan currently gets a lot of criticism for his handling of a big corruption affair. (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jan/12/turkey-judicial-reforms-recep-tayyip-erdogan)
Oh dear.
Post by: Dutchling on January 19, 2014, 07:56:32 pm
Post by: Sonlirain on January 19, 2014, 08:43:10 pm
lolwut (http://rt.com/news/turkey-health-ban-aid-850/)
When did North Korea get so close to Europe?
Post by: Tarran on January 19, 2014, 09:08:54 pm
On a more serious note, good god that is horrible.
...But what would the leaders of Turkey do if they suddenly got hurt but there was no doctor around and everyone around them was extremely loyal to the laws of the state?
Post by: XXSockXX on January 20, 2014, 02:04:20 pm
Oh! That's good! :D Where did he say that?
Also several times before that. He also said he would stay away from the violent protests, so most likely he's fine and just didn't post back.No news from Leatra too...almost a week now.Heh, sorry. I don't have internet at home and I'm kind of busy these days.
Post by: XXSockXX on March 12, 2014, 01:18:59 pm
A 15 year old died after 269 days of coma from injuries sustained in the protests. This has sparked new massive protests. (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26540220)
Also Erdogan is caught up in a big corruption scandal. After some conversations were leaked on social media, he threatened to cut off Facebook and Youtube, though he has backpaddled on that since.
Post by: Foamybeard on March 13, 2014, 02:50:12 am
I haven't really been following this with all the stuff happening in Ukraine, but here's a minor update:
A 15 year old died after 269 days of coma from injuries sustained in the protests. This has sparked new massive protests. (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26540220)
Also Erdogan is caught up in a big corruption scandal. After some conversations were leaked on social media, he threatened to cut off Facebook and Youtube, though he has backpaddled on that since.
...How old is Leatra?
>_>
Post by: Jopax on March 13, 2014, 04:17:56 am
Post by: Foamybeard on March 13, 2014, 05:15:28 am
Post by: XXSockXX on March 13, 2014, 10:27:42 am
The new protests seem quite big though, 2 people died (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26555745), one protester, one policeman.
Post by: Sergarr on March 20, 2014, 08:38:24 pm
Twitter blocked in Turkey.
Post by: olemars on March 21, 2014, 04:00:01 am
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26677134
Twitter blocked in Turkey.
Too much corruption on Twitter, I guess.
Post by: Duuvian on March 21, 2014, 03:30:11 pm
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26677134
Twitter blocked in Turkey.
Too much corruption on Twitter, I guess.
That's a funny yet sad joke.
Post by: misko27 on March 22, 2014, 01:51:58 pm
In other news, Turkish ban on Twitter doing a great job.
Post by: Dutchling on March 22, 2014, 01:58:10 pm
Post by: Sergarr on March 27, 2014, 11:28:40 am
Turkey blocks YouTube.
I fear for Leatra.