Bay 12 Games Forum

Finally... => Forum Games and Roleplaying => Mafia => Topic started by: Okami No Rei on June 27, 2013, 12:20:18 am

Title: BM XLII - Game Over: Mafia Win!
Post by: Okami No Rei on June 27, 2013, 12:20:18 am

Beginner's Mafia XLII
Aquifer Cats

Success!  Your goblin raiding party, cleverly disguised as dwarves, infiltrated the unsuspecting fortress under cover of midnight and made its way to the central stockpile.  You nabbed a whole bin full of ≡CAVE SPIDER SILK SOCKS≡.

However, disaster struck as you attempted to make good your escape.  Somehow, the Overseer discovered the theft, and closed the primary drawbridge.  Thus far, no one has spotted you, and you've holed up in an abandoned room on the upper levels.  Now you must wait for the bridge to re-open.  In the meantime, somebody must have alerted the Overseer.  There are moles in your midst...

---

Player List [7/7]:
TheWetSheep GUNINANRUNIN TheWetSheep SailFlame webadict - Killed Night Two - Goblin Thief (Vanilla Town)
griffinpup - Killed Night Three - Goblin Thief (Vanilla Town)
Griffionday Squill - Lynched Day Three - Goblin Thief (Vanilla Town)
Powder Miner Rolepgeek - Lynched Day Four - Goblin Thief (Vanilla Town)
Imperial Guardsman - Lynched Day Two - Dwarven Manager (Mafia Rolecop) - Winner!
DaveTheGrave - Lynched Day One - Goblin Thief (Vanilla Town)
Boy Chink birdy51 - Undercover Dwarf (Vanilla Mafioso) - Winner!

ICs [2/2]:
Nerjin - Goblin Thief (Vanilla Town)
notquitethere - Killed Night One - Goblin Sergeant (Cop)

Scum IC:
Deathsword

Replacement List:
No one around...


Spoilspec:
Tiruin
Dariush

Introduction

Welcome to Beginner's Mafia XLII. As the title suggests, this game is for beginners. If you have no idea how to play or you have some experience but you're still not quite sure what to do, then this is the right place for you. If you sign up, you have one goal: Learn how to play the game of mafia. Since this is not an easy thing to do on your own and we wouldn't dream of forcing you to do it, you will be assisted by two 'inexperience challenged' players, or ICs. The ICs are experienced players on the board who have signed up to help you learn. You can always trust that the advice they give is genuine, however, you cannot always trust the IC, as they are players in the game and have the same likelihood of being scum as every other single player.

If this is your first time playing, keep in mind that games of forum mafia take several weeks, and can sometimes run longer than a month, and that you are expected to be able to play continuously through that time. If you can't anticipate being able to play for that long for whatever reason, then maybe the game of mafia isn't for you. But if it is, then welcome to the mafia subforum, and I hope you have a great time playing.

---

Gameplay and Concept

The game of mafia has a simple concept. A large group of players known as the town plays against a smaller group of players known as the mafia. In this setup, there are nine players, with seven town and two mafia.

Before the game begins, each players is given a role and an alignment by the moderator. There are two alignments in this setup: Town and Mafia. The town outnumber the mafia, but each individual member of the town does not know the alignment of any of the other members. The mafia know the alignment of everyone on their team and they can discuss the game privately in a special mafia chat. The mafia has access to a nightkill that they may use in the Night phase, while the town occasionally has roles with abilities that are used during the night.

Once everyone has a role, the game begins in the Day phase. During the Day phase, players may discuss the game and each player has a vote that they cast publicly to lynch a player. At the end of the day after some predetermined amount of time, the player with the most votes is lynched. Lynching does two things: it reveals a player's role and alignment, and it removes a player from the game. Once lynched, a player is no longer allowed to post in the thread.

Once the day ends, the game proceeds to Night. During the Night, discussion is prohibited. The mafia team picks a target to nightkill. If available, any town power roles use their actions as well. At the end of the night, the target the mafia chose to nightkill has their role and alignment revealed, and that player is removed from the game in a similar way to being lynched. Once the night ends, the game proceeds to another Day.

Both teams win by eliminating the other. However, due to the nature of the teams, they win very differently. The town win by finding and lynching the mafia, while the mafia win by avoiding being lynched and nightkilling.

Potential Roles

Vanilla Townie - A member of the town with no special abilities.
Mafioso - A member of the mafia with no special abilities.
Cop (Town) - A cop may choose to inspect a single player during the night and learn that player's alignment.
Doctor (Town) - A doctor may choose a single player to protect during the night, preventing that player from being nightkilled.
*Jailkeeper (Town) - A combination of a Roleblocker and a Doctor, a Jailkeeper both protects and blocks the target from acting during the night.
Roleblocker (Mafia) - A roleblocker may choose a single player to block, preventing that player from performing his action.
Godfather (Mafia) - A godfather appears town to Cop inspections.
*Role Cop (Mafia) - Much like the Town Cop counterpart, the Role Cop investigates a single other during the night to learn their role, instead of their alignment.

* Experimental Roles (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=126082.msg4252536#msg4252536)

The only role that receives the success of their results in this setup is the Cop and Rolecop. All other roles are not informed if they were successful or not.

One of the following setups is used:
1. 1 Mafioso, 1 Mafia Role Cop, 5 Vanilla Townies, Sane Cop, Jailkeeper.
2. 1 Mafioso, 1 Mafia Role Cop, 6 Vanilla Townies, Sane Cop.
3. 1 Mafioso, 1 Mafia Role Cop, 6 Vanilla Townies, Jailkeeper.

Spoiler: Role PMs (click to show/hide)

Here is the list of potential role PMs. This is to discourage flavor claiming from confirming role.

Quote from: Undercover Dwarf (Mafioso)

You are an undercover dwarf.  You and your partner have spent months infiltrating the Goblin cartel, and with the evidence you've gathered, you're finally ready to alert the Overseer of your findings.  First, however, you need to survive.

At night you and your team may choose to kill a single target.

You are in the SCUM team. You win when the TOWN team has as many or less players than the scum team. You may talk to your ally and the scum IC in the scum chat (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ujzp9ffPwPM).

Quote from: Dwarven Sherrif (Roleblocker)

You are an undercover dwarf.  You and your partner have spent months infiltrating the Goblin cartel, and with the evidence you've gathered, you're finally ready to alert the Overseer of your findings.  First, however, you need to survive.

Your time in office has taught you a thing or two about keeping renegade goblins in line.

You may choose one target at night to roleblock, preventing them from taking any action.
Additionally, at night you and your team may choose to kill a single target.

You are in the SCUM team. You win when the TOWN team has as many or less players than the scum team. You may talk to your ally and the scum IC in the scum chat (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ujzp9ffPwPM).

Quote from: Dwarven Ranger (Godfather)

You are an undercover dwarf.  You and your partner have spent months infiltrating the Goblin cartel, and with the evidence you've gathered, you're finally ready to alert the Overseer of your findings.  First, however, you need to survive.

You are a dwarf, disguised as a goblin, disguised as another dwarf.  However, ☼POINTED EARS☼, a trophy carved from the head of your first goblin kill, which you then personally tanned and crafted into a macabre headpiece, do wonders for your disguise.

If the cop inspects you, their result will be Town.
At night you and your team may choose to kill a single target.

You are in the SCUM team. You win when the TOWN team has as many or less players than the scum team. You may talk to your ally and the scum IC in the scum chat (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ujzp9ffPwPM).

Quote from: Dwarven Manager (Rolecop)

You are an undercover dwarf.  You and your partner have spent months infiltrating the Goblin cartel, and with the evidence you've gathered, you're finally ready to alert the Overseer of your findings.  First, however, you need to survive.

Jobs, jobs, jobs.  What you don't know about jobs could be counted by a novice Bookkeeper.  After ten years as the fortress manager, you can tell a dwarf's job just by looking at him.  Goblins are more challenging, but it's nothing your keen intellect can't overcome.

At night, you may target one player to reveal their role (if any).
At night you and your team may choose to kill a single target.

You are in the SCUM team. You win when the TOWN team has as many or less players than the scum team. You may talk to your ally and the scum IC in the scum chat (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ujzp9ffPwPM).

Quote from: Goblin Thief (Vanilla Townie)

You are a goblin, cunningly disguised as a dwarf.  You're not entirely sure why, but the results speak for themselves.  You and your crew made off with a whole bin full of ≡CAVE SPIDER SILK SOCK≡.  However, you're not out of the fortress yet, and it seems that two of your fellow goblin raiders, well, aren't.

You are in the TOWN team. You win when the SCUM Team is eliminated.

Quote from: Goblin Medic (Doctor)

You are a goblin, cunningly disguised as a dwarf.  You're not entirely sure why, but the results speak for themselves.  You and your crew made off with a whole bin full of ≡CAVE SPIDER SILK SOCK≡.  However, you're not out of the fortress yet, and it seems that two of your fellow goblin raiders, well, aren't.

Years of systematically cutting creatures apart with the sharpest blade you can get your hands on has left you with a passing knowledge of anatomy.  While you vastly prefer to kill, you can, in a pinch, prolong the suffering extend the life of your victims patients.

Each night you may target one player.  That player will not die if targeted with the mafia nightkill (unless you're roleblocked).

You are in the TOWN team. You win when the SCUM Team is eliminated.

Quote from: Goblin Sergeant (Cop)

You are a goblin, cunningly disguised as a dwarf.  You're not entirely sure why, but the results speak for themselves.  You and your crew made off with a whole bin full of ≡CAVE SPIDER SILK SOCK≡.  However, you're not out of the fortress yet, and it seems that two of your fellow goblin raiders, well, aren't.

You've killed many dwarves throughout your military career, and your experiences have taught you the subtle differences between your own race and theirs.  You're certain you can tell a dwarf just by looking at one.

Each night you may target one player for inspection and learn their alignment.

You are in the TOWN team. You win when the SCUM Team is eliminated.

Quote from: Goblin Archer (Jailkeeper)

You are a goblin, cunningly disguised as a dwarf.  You're not entirely sure why, but the results speak for themselves.  You and your crew made off with a whole bin full of ≡CAVE SPIDER SILK SOCK≡.  However, you're not out of the fortress yet, and it seems that two of your fellow goblin raiders, well, aren't.

It amuses you to practice your archery skills on lesser goblins,  so you made a habit of pulling one aside at night for target practice.  Your squad leader is fine with this, since you haven't killed any goblins in the past month week, and it does keep your skills sharp.  Besides, it's not your fault if they can't hold still.

Each night you may target one player, simultaneously roleblocking and protecting them from the nightkill.

You are in the TOWN team. You win when the SCUM Team is eliminated.

Notes about the ICs

The ICs are here solely to teach new players how to play, but remember, they are also players in the game. This means they have the same chance to be scum as any other player and it is entirely possible for one IC or even both ICs to be scum. Regardless of their alignment, they are obligated to provide you with genuine advice, so that even if you don't trust the IC, you can trust the advice they give. Some ICs will use a special 'IC voice' to alert players that they are delivering honest, unfiltered advice, while some don't.

The ICs have the special privilege of being able to talk while dead. This is so that they can continue to give advice even if they are killed during the course of the game.

---

Rules

• Voting - Votes are cast in red and should include the name of the targeted player. Other colors may be ignored.
  • Okami No Rei
  • Vote Okami No Rei
  • Okami No Rei is lying scum!
  • Vote Okami
  • Vote ONR
  Are all acceptable ways to cast a vote if the target is clear enough.
  
  • If you want to remove your vote, you may put unvote in red text. You must explicitly state this.  It is possible to put the name of the player you were voting afterwards, but it is not recommended as it can lead to confusion.
• Death - When you are dead, you are prohibited from posting in the thread. You may make a single 'bah' post after you die, however, it must not contain any game-related information.
• PMs - PMs between players are prohibited. You may freely PM the moderator to ask game-related questions, however, what the moderator may reveal is limited.
  
  • Do not quote any direct correspondence with the moderator, including role PMs and rule-related queries.
• Edits - Editing posts is prohibited. Do not edit your post for any reason, even if your post comes out as a train-wreck of formatting, spelling, punctuation, and/or grammar. The preview button exists; use it.
• Replacements/Activity - If you find yourself unable to play, you may, and should, request a replacement. We may try to talk you out of it if it's for any other reason besides you not having enough time to play.
  
  • Prods may be requested for a player. If they have not posted in the thread within 24 hours, excluding weekends, they will be prodded.
  • If you stop playing altogether without notifying me, you will receive a warning after 48 hours, and a forced replace after 72 hours.
  • Please be active. The greatest killer of beginner games is poor activity.
• Day/Night Length - Days will last 72 hours, excluding weekends. Nights will last 24 hours, or until all night actions are received. Neither of these include weekends.
• MODIFIED RULE - Extensions/Shortens - A player may vote for an extension to increase the length of the day. It requires >33% of the current number of players to request an extension for an extension to be granted. A player may also vote for a shorten. It requires >50% of the current number of players for a shorten to be granted. Extensions increase day length by 48 hours, while shortens will immediately end the day as soon as possible. There is no limit to the number of extensions that may be granted with one exception. If an extension goes through and players do not make use of it there will be no more extensions on that day. If you request an extension USE IT!
  • Votes for extension/shorten are done in boldface. Extend, Extension, Extend it up yo, Shorten it out y'all are acceptable ways to vote for an extension/shorten
  • Extensions/shortens can be opposed by declaring opposition (Oppose Shorten/Extend, I oppose this notion!, My Oppose goes to this), and they count against the total number of votes for an extension/shorten. Extensions count as opposition to shortens and vice versa.
  • NEW RULE - If the game is in a LYLO or MYLO situation, there will be no formal deadline.  >50% Players must vote to end the day, or votes must not change for 24-hours.  Votes to end the day may, at the voter's option, be contingent on the lynching of the player being voted on, and will be considered null should a different player gain the majority vote.
• External Participation - While the game is ongoing, if you are not a player, an IC, or a mod, refrain from posting in the thread.
  • Play to win! There is no hopeless situation, so don't ever give up. And remember, be bold! You learn nothing and you gain nothing by holding back.
• Miscellaneous -  Use of cryptographic hashing is not permitted.  If you want to have hidden/obfuscated messages in your posts for later use, come up with them using your own wetware.

---

Resources and Guides

Our own Bay12 Mafia tutorial (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=39338.0)
The Mafiascum wiki. Lots of theory, terminology, and game analysis. (http://mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?title=Main_Page)
An Interactive Flash tutorial by one of the Mafiascum.net people. Helpful visualization! (http://cataldo.freeshell.org/mafia/mafiascum04.swf)
The Notable Games archive. Read a famous game from start to finish! Learn some Mafia history. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=64229.0)

Spoiler: On D1 No-lynches (click to show/hide)

Quote from: Bookthras

I'm not an IC, but I once wrote a rant about nolynches on Day One that I think would be beneficial for this audience, so I quote it below. In brief, you can (i.e., it's a valid vote, and if it has majority no lynch will happen) but you shouldn't unless you have a very very good reason. Actual ICs will, of course, chime in with their own thoughts, and there are different considerations to be had in subsequent days; the below applies only for D1.

Quote from: Bookthras on May 08, 2012, 09:31:27 pm

Even in a game like this, or a role-heavy game like a BYOR, paranormal, or bastard, without a D1 lynch people will lack context for the conversation during the day, which is the very point of the day game. The information lost is not just the flip of a person, but who voted them, with what arguments, and forms the very foundation of how the town power roles will choose their night actions. Information is key, and timely information moreso. People flipping at the start of D2 is not nearly as useful, and a nolynch will result in people using their powers on whoever they were voting (if block/investigate) or a crapshoot for protections and the like, due to lack of context and closure.

A D1 no-lynch pretty much wastes all of D1 content, and gives scum a chance to NK/convert/whatever while town has to shoot in the dark. The amount of information lost is not small, but most importantly, you lose the opportunity to use it. N1 will never come again. Even if you learn the information later, you'll never get that night back, which scum got for free. Not good for town at all.

Quote from: Hapah on May 08, 2012, 07:22:06 pm

Also considering the fact that the D1 lynchee is almost always town (when was the last time anyone saw a scum hang D1?),

Not that rare. The very last game I played (Cybrid Mafia 3 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=104547.msg3146622#msg3146622)) we lynched scum D1. A couple games before that (Politibastard) as well, though that was a... different sort of game. I'm sure there are several others.

So sure, it doesn't happen that often, but it certainly does happen. Plus the possibility of a mislynch is built into the balance of the game. If there is going to be one, it's best for town that it happens sooner rather than later, so maximum information is provided early. It's never good, but a D1 no-lynch is worse.

Please disabuse yourself of the notion that a D1 no-lynch is good for town ever. Except in very narrow types of games where constant (not just D1) no-lynch can be used to break the setup (which is not the case here), whenever you think a D1 no-lynch is good because it's cautious, it's misapplied caution, and will hurt town much more than a possible mislynch would.

Spoiler: Dakarian's Scumhunting Bible, reposted here for your convenience (click to show/hide)

A VERY rough sketch of how a scumhunt is done (to help those who aren't sure now).
Step 1: When you have no suspicions on anyone, pick someone at random (I MEAN random.. some use Random.org for this!), take a glance as their past posts, and talk to them, usually with a vote.  The goal is not to kill but to learn more about them.  The vote is a "Pressure Vote", simply used to make sure they don't ignore you.

Step 2: When someone feels 'off' to you: perhaps you disliked their answer, or maybe they scare you, or confuse you with their text.  Perhaps they look fine but your feelings or your gut says something is wrong. Perhaps you see them do one scumtell.  Don't ignore it: make them your target.  Attack them.  Tell them what bothers you about them.  Push them, harass them.  Tell them how scummy they are.  Ask them every question in the book.. and I mean EVERYTHING:

Litia: "You bother me.  Vote Dakarian!"

Dak: Meh.  Why?

Litia: "Because you bother me.  Why are you pushing me off as if it doesn't matter?"

Dak: "What? No, you just have nothing on me."

Litia: "You're voting for Vector.  why?"

Dak: "He looked scummy.."

Litia: "Vagueness is a scumtell!  "Scummy.. how is he scummy!"

Dak: "He just is.. you don't have a reason to go after me either."

Litia: "OMGUSing now Mr.Scum?  Being defensive?  You also didn't answer my question!"

Note, this is Step 2: Litia doesn't feel like she knows Dakarian is scum.. just had a 'feeling'.  She has no hard evidence, nothing real.  The questions are to add pressure.. make Dakarian crack and panic.  If you did it right, they WILL town or scum.  WHEN they do, you will be able to see more of their true self.  From there, decide if you can find them as scum for truth.  If you don't: pull out and go to your next suspect: if no one else is there, go back to Step 1.

If you do believe they are scum after that, Step 3:

Step 3: When you believe someone is scum, gather evidence.  Find every scum tell, every sign of their true [/list]

Title: Re: BM XLII - In Signups! [0/9]
Post by: Okami No Rei on June 27, 2013, 12:21:47 am

Game will start after completion of BMXLI (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=126082.msg4250770#msg4250770).

Title: Re: BM XLII - In Signups! [0/9]
Post by: Dariush on June 27, 2013, 01:26:45 am

Uh, so which setup are you using? The standard one (cop/doctor/godfather/roleblocker) or the experimental one (cop/jailer/rolecop)?

Title: Re: BM XLII - In Signups! [0/9]
Post by: Okami No Rei on June 27, 2013, 07:12:18 am

I'm planning on doing the experimental one, but I'm holding off on the final decision until Tir's game is over.  I'd like to see some feedback on it before I commit to it, but I see no reason why we shouldn't have multiple samples for the experiment.

Title: Re: BM XLII - In Signups! [0/9]
Post by: Leafsnail on June 27, 2013, 08:13:03 am

I'd suggest not using the old one because we know that a) it's a lot more mafia sided than a bunch of setups that were abandoned due to being mafia sided and b) it's been shown historically to be mafia sided, with a roughly 85% mafia win rate.  We can try making up a new setup or modifying the old one, but I really don't think the old one is fit for purpose at all.

e: or just steal mafiascum's new setup, that seems pretty balanced

Title: Re: BM XLII - In Signups! [0/9]
Post by: Dariush on June 27, 2013, 08:40:29 am

Oh, and by the way, please do something with eleventh hour votejumps like GD did in XLI. I'll go into detail once Tiruin unlocks the thread, but this problem seriously must be solved somehow (my proposal - extend the day by (12-hours_remaining_before_day_end) hours if a vote switch that happened less then 12 hours before the day end causes the voting majority to change).

Title: Re: BM XLII - In Signups! [0/9]
Post by: Leafsnail on June 27, 2013, 08:46:43 am

He would've won under a hammers ruleset anyway.  That said, it's silly because it depends on who lives in what timezone - we should switch to hammers for lylo at least, so that there's a slight chance that town might have enough time to hit scum at lylo.

e: To be honest the way you have to keep asking for extensions on a ridiculously short deadline is pretty silly in the first place.

Title: Re: BM XLII - In Signups! [0/9]
Post by: nightcrafter27 on June 27, 2013, 09:15:34 am

Posting to watch. I'd love to get in on this one, but an upcoming camping trip does not allow it.

Title: Re: BM XLII - In Signups! [0/9]
Post by: Dariush on June 27, 2013, 09:32:20 am

Hammers at LYLO is an atrociously terrible idea. Did at least one townie vote another townie? Cue scum coordinating in the scumchat and hammering him. Sorry town, but your win is in another game.

Title: Re: BM XLII - In Signups! [0/9]
Post by: Leafsnail on June 27, 2013, 09:37:23 am

And that's exactly what happened last game.  Only at least with hammers it's clear that you do not vote at lylo unless you are sure the person you're voting is scum.

Title: Re: BM XLII - In Signups! [0/9]
Post by: Dariush on June 27, 2013, 09:44:01 am

Nope, this way town at least had plenty of time to think on their cases. With hammers, literally a single misvote, however temporary, by a single townie, is enough to cost the game. This is not a solution, this is an anti-solution.

Title: Re: BM XLII - In Signups! [0/9]
Post by: Leafsnail on June 27, 2013, 09:48:01 am

Yes Dariush that is what lylo is meant to be.  You have as much time as you like but you have to make the right decision.

Title: Re: BM XLII - In Signups! [0/9]
Post by: Lenglon on June 27, 2013, 09:51:05 am

so rather than a (totally unnecessary) 11th hour votejump winning us the game, Nightcrafter's vote on sheep near the start of the day (before you even posted) should have won us the game? I agree with Dariush, hammers isn't a solution.

Title: Re: BM XLII - In Signups! [0/9]
Post by: TheWetSheep on June 27, 2013, 10:03:55 am

Uh, yeah, I think having one misvote being an instant loss is pretty unbalanced too. In, anyway.

Title: Re: BM XLII - In Signups! [0/9]
Post by: Leafsnail on June 27, 2013, 10:23:37 am

That's the case in basically every place that plays mafia that isn't Bay 12, but ok (the idea is, once again, to not vote at lylo unless you are sure).  I think we need to sort out our deadline rules in some way though because it's silly having to ask for extensions again and again and again in order to have any chance of finding scum.

Title: Re: BM XLII - In Signups! [0/9]
Post by: Dariush on June 27, 2013, 10:38:26 am

Quote from: Leafsnail on June 27, 2013, 10:23:37 am

That's the case in basically every place that plays mafia that isn't Bay 12, but ok (the idea is, once again, to not vote at lylo unless you are sure).  I think we need to sort out our deadline rules in some way though because it's silly having to ask for extensions again and again and again in order to have any chance of finding scum.

I was under the impression that simply doubling the length of extensions worked nicely.

Title: Re: BM XLII - In Signups! [0/9]
Post by: griffinpup on June 27, 2013, 11:19:33 am

Meh.  In, by the way.  I think that doubling the extension time is a viable alternative.  Not letting the day end within twelve hours would let someone infinitely extend the day all by themselves.  This gives way too much power to one person. 

Title: Re: BM XLII - In Signups! [0/9]
Post by: Leafsnail on June 27, 2013, 11:31:43 am

If we have an aversion to hammers because they force you to think about who you're voting at lylo, we could instead have a system where the day ends when over half of the people are voting for it to end or something

Title: Re: BM XLII - In Signups! [0/9]
Post by: Dariush on June 27, 2013, 11:33:13 am

If he does so, he'll probably brand himself as scum and attract all votes to such an extent that no matter what he does he won't be able to change majority and thus extend the day further.

Quote from: Leafsnail on June 27, 2013, 11:31:43 am

If we have an aversion to hammers because they force you to think about who you're voting at lylo, we could instead have a system where the day ends when over half of the people are voting for it to end or something

Nnnope. The same problem remains - one townie votes to end the day, both scum pile onto whoever has a single vote on them and instahammer.

Title: Re: BM XLII - In Signups! [0/9]
Post by: Leafsnail on June 27, 2013, 11:46:57 am

Then you don't vote to end the day unless you have made your decision!  I don't see why this is so difficult

e: I guess we can do "no ending the day if a vote hop happened" though if we want to maintain status quo.

e2: Actually come to think of it what I originally meant with the "approve day ending" thing is that your approval to end the day is automatically withdrawn if someone changes the lynch target.  Your approval of the day ending is contigent on a particular lynch happening.

Title: Re: BM XLII - In Signups! [0/9]
Post by: Tiruin on June 27, 2013, 11:59:04 am

Quote from: Okami No Rei on June 27, 2013, 12:21:47 am

Game will start after completion of BMXLI (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=126082.msg4250770#msg4250770).

Err, yeah. It's done. Just editing it all in now that I'm finally back >_>

Title: Re: BM XLII - In Signups! [0/9]
Post by: Dariush on June 27, 2013, 12:05:14 pm

This is a BM, FFS. You cannot expect newbies for majority of whom this is the first game to play nearly perfectly, or at least way better than some of the old-timers I'M LOOKING AT YOU OTTOFAR.

Title: Re: BM XLII - In Signups! [0/9]
Post by: RangerCado on June 27, 2013, 12:11:31 pm

in with no more craziness from me... hopefully...

Title: Re: BM XLII - In Signups! [0/9]
Post by: Dariush on June 27, 2013, 12:21:31 pm

You know, I think that day ending voting is the best solution overall. I wanted to propose something along those lines (and actually wrote up a paragraph describing a similar system), but then I scrapped the post in favour of clarifying my initial statement which GP misunderstood.

ONR, will you implement this?

Title: Re: BM XLII - In Signups! [0/9]
Post by: griffinpup on June 27, 2013, 12:38:16 pm

Quote from: Leafsnail on June 27, 2013, 11:46:57 am

e2: Actually come to think of it what I originally meant with the "approve day ending" thing is that your approval to end the day is automatically withdrawn if someone changes the lynch target.  Your approval of the day ending is contigent on a particular lynch happening.

This would work in an endgame scenario.  But, I see one problem with it.  Newbies never voting to end the day because their target isn't going to be lynched.  I'm worried about day one and possibly day two, when minority votes still lead to a lynch vote.

Title: Re: BM XLII - In Signups! [0/9]
Post by: Leafsnail on June 27, 2013, 12:40:34 pm

Yeah, to clarify I'd want those rules to apply only in lylo or mylo situations.  The status quo is probably ok otherwise because you can just lynch anyone who votejumps.

Title: Re: BM XLII - In Signups! [0/9]
Post by: griffinpup on June 27, 2013, 12:47:02 pm

OK.  +1 to longer extensions and voting to end the day in lylo or mylo situations.

Title: Re: BM XLII - In Signups! [0/9]
Post by: Jim Groovester on June 27, 2013, 04:58:30 pm

Ugh, no. Give a bunch of new players additional tools to extend the game for as long as they like and they will use them, and use them endlessly. You'll end up with lylos a month and a half long.

PTW.

Title: Re: BM XLII - In Signups! [0/9]
Post by: griffinpup on June 27, 2013, 05:27:37 pm

But I believe it to be their choice.  If there's three newbies who honestly want to play this game for a month and a half, I see no reason to stop them.

Title: Re: BM XLII - In Signups! [0/9]
Post by: Shinigami_King on June 27, 2013, 06:04:26 pm

How soon will this game start? It would greatly affect my decision :I I'll sign up for replacement.

Title: Re: BM XLII - In Signups! [0/9]
Post by: Griffionday on June 27, 2013, 08:18:21 pm

A thought, you could just have the day end be a set time + a random amount of time between zero to six hours (possibly posted in the dead chat before hand to keep the mod free from being blamed of bias).  That way there is no hard 11th hour to plan for, but the end of the day is not hammer based.

In btw.

Title: Re: BM XLII - In Signups! [3/9] - ICs Needed!
Post by: Okami No Rei on June 27, 2013, 09:41:18 pm

Experimental it is.

Extensions will be extended to 48hours.

Lynch contingent day end votes will be required during (L/M)YLO situations.

In order to prevent the day from dragging interminably once more than half the players have voted I'm going to end the day if no one changes their vote in a 24-hour period, whether or not the day end vote has been cast.

Title: Re: BM XLII - In Signups! [0/9]
Post by: Dariush on June 28, 2013, 03:13:47 am

Quote from: Griffionday on June 27, 2013, 08:18:21 pm

A thought, you could just have the day end be a set time + a random amount of time between zero to six hours (possibly posted in the dead chat before hand to keep the mod free from being blamed of bias).  That way there is no hard 11th hour to plan for, but the end of the day is not hammer based.

This may actually work, but for now let's see how day end votes will work.

Title: Re: BM XLII - In Signups! [3/9] - ICs Needed!
Post by: Griffionday on June 28, 2013, 11:38:33 am

I'm worried that the day end votes won't solve anything and just make it worse though.  The only reason I was able to pull what I did was because sheep wasn't around at day end to change his votes and no one extended to give him the time. I feel justified in saying that whatever vote you leave on someone within the 24 hr period before the lynch should be the vote that you're willing to go down with; if that is not the case then this is a problem with the instruction noobs are getting rather than scum's responsibility to not take complete advantage of this.  Day end votes therefore just mean that the day switches to a hammer, with the scum coordinating a double strike the instant anyone messes up their lylo day end vote. 

To add to the mess: this also forces a double-jeopardy on scum; not only do they have to avoid seeming to bandwagon their vote, they ALSO have to avoid bandwagoning their day end vote.  And that's just if we use Leaf's ambiguously defined "approve of this day end" vote, (which already should be implicit in your vote going into the last 24 hours).

I know for a fact I would not have vote-flipped if I knew the day might not end for another hour or two, honestly even two minutes was a bit nerve-wracking.  This has the benefit of ONLY affecting that very specific play, the hand-off nature means it won't be able to be utilized for scum hunting, and will not bog down the day except by a max of six hours.  This could easily be implemented for all the days, with the pressure on finishing up before the deadline posted.

Title: Re: BM XLII - In Signups! [3/9] - ICs Needed!
Post by: zombie urist on June 28, 2013, 11:43:36 am

What if we play vengeful at lylo?

Title: Re: BM XLII - In Signups! [3/9] - ICs Needed!
Post by: Griffionday on June 28, 2013, 11:50:37 am

ZU: that could work for a 5-person Lylo (assuming we remove the mafia kill as per vengeful rules), but what about a 3-person one?  The scum is forced to be not only the second least scummy person, but the least overall to win.  I think that that might be a bit unfair against whoever is scum, but on the other hand we are trying to weaken scum so...

Title: Re: BM XLII - In Signups! [3/9] - ICs Needed!
Post by: Teneb on June 28, 2013, 04:10:33 pm

Scum IC in

Title: Re: BM XLII - In Signups! [3/9] - ICs Needed!
Post by: lordnincompoop on June 29, 2013, 04:48:38 am

Spectating.

Title: Re: BM XLII - In Signups! [3/9] - ICs Needed!
Post by: Dariush on June 29, 2013, 05:06:29 am

Quote from: Deathsword on June 28, 2013, 04:10:33 pm

Scum IC in

I don't think you have sufficient experience to qualify for ICing, TBH.

Title: Re: BM XLII - In Signups! [3/9] - ICs Needed!
Post by: Okami No Rei on June 29, 2013, 06:19:27 am

Would you like to IC, Dariush?  I'll even let you Co-IC scum if Deathsword approves that arrangement...

LNCP - Spoilspec or regular?

Title: Re: BM XLII - In Signups! [3/9] - ICs Needed!
Post by: Tiruin on June 29, 2013, 11:11:21 am

Quote from: Dariush on June 29, 2013, 05:06:29 am

Quote from: Deathsword on June 28, 2013, 04:10:33 pm

Scum IC in

I don't think you have sufficient experience to qualify for ICing, TBH.

He IC'd before, and it was quite the experience.

Despite being busy and having a chalk filled day.  :P

Spoilspec + Deadchat

Title: Re: BM XLII - In Signups! [3/9] - ICs Needed!
Post by: Teneb on June 29, 2013, 01:08:29 pm

Quote from: Tiruin on June 29, 2013, 11:11:21 am

Quote from: Dariush on June 29, 2013, 05:06:29 am

Quote from: Deathsword on June 28, 2013, 04:10:33 pm

Scum IC in

I don't think you have sufficient experience to qualify for ICing, TBH.

He IC'd before, and it was quite the experience.

Despite being busy and having a chalk filled day.  :P

Spoilspec + Deadchat

Here to be exact (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=124597.0)

Title: Re: BM XLII - In Signups! [3/9] - ICs Needed!
Post by: lordnincompoop on June 29, 2013, 06:00:37 pm

Quote from: Okami No Rei on June 29, 2013, 06:19:27 am

LNCP - Would you like to supersize that?

No, thank you. Regular will be fine.

Title: Re: BM XLII - In Signups! [0/9]
Post by: birdy51 on June 30, 2013, 08:11:23 pm

Quote from: RangerCado on June 27, 2013, 12:11:31 pm

in with no more craziness from me... hopefully...

You can do it!

Posting to watch for now though.

Title: Re: BM XLII - In Signups! [0/9]
Post by: griffinpup on June 30, 2013, 08:24:08 pm

Quote from: RangerCado on June 27, 2013, 12:11:31 pm

in with no more craziness from me... hopefully...

I'll give you  a hint.  DON'T CLAIM.  That'll get rid of most of your huge blunders in play.

Title: Re: BM XLII - In Signups! [3/9] - ICs Needed!
Post by: Tiruin on June 30, 2013, 08:42:55 pm

Quote from: griffinpup on June 30, 2013, 08:24:08 pm

Quote from: RangerCado on June 27, 2013, 12:11:31 pm

in with no more craziness from me... hopefully...

I'll give you  a hint.  DON'T CLAIM EARLY!  That'll get rid of most of your huge blunders in play.

Since I'm not a mod anymore (in which I really should put down that last note stamp..) here's my two cents.

What he said. :S

Or learn to claim correctly.

Title: Re: BM XLII - In Signups! [0/9]
Post by: lordnincompoop on July 01, 2013, 06:39:49 am

Quote from: griffinpup on June 30, 2013, 08:24:08 pm

I'll give you  a hint.  DON'T CLAIM.  That'll get rid of most of your huge blunders in play.

That is terrible advice. Claiming is absolutely fine, and would be recommended at LYLO and when one is about to get lynched.

Claiming doesn't work, however, when the town can't scumhunt worth a damn and enjoys shooting itself in the foot like in BM XLI, and when there is also an anti-town Cop (which weakens the claim somewhat, but is still strong).

Title: Re: BM XLII - In Signups! [3/9] - ICs Needed!
Post by: Dariush on July 01, 2013, 06:48:46 am

I think that in this case the fault for lynching Cado lied with the town. Mafia don't really have an incentive to fakeclaim on D1 due to risk of counterclaim by the actual cop.

Does anybody remember any BMs in which scum fakeclaimed in circumstances other than being in immediate danger of the lynch and/or was believed by the town?

Title: Re: BM XLII - In Signups! [0/9]
Post by: Tiruin on July 01, 2013, 08:20:38 am

Quote from: lordnincompoop on July 01, 2013, 06:39:49 am

Claiming doesn't work, however, when the town can't scumhunt worth a damn and enjoys shooting itself in the foot like in BM XLI, and when there is also an anti-town Cop (which weakens the claim somewhat, but is still strong).

I am going to cry.

Quote from: Dariush on July 01, 2013, 06:48:46 am

I think that in this case the fault for lynching Cado lied with the town. Mafia don't really have an incentive to fakeclaim on D1 due to risk of counterclaim by the actual cop.

Does anybody remember any BMs in which scum fakeclaimed in circumstances other than being in immediate danger of the lynch and/or was believed by the town?

/me points at Deathsword who faceclaimed Doctor. And by sheer coincidence had his opponent be the real doctor. Back in..err, BM XL? Give or take one.

Title: Re: BM XLII - In Signups! [0/9]
Post by: griffinpup on July 01, 2013, 09:21:27 am

Quote from: lordnincompoop on July 01, 2013, 06:39:49 am

Quote from: griffinpup on June 30, 2013, 08:24:08 pm

I'll give you  a hint.  DON'T CLAIM.  That'll get rid of most of your huge blunders in play.

That is terrible advice. Claiming is absolutely fine, and would be recommended at LYLO and when one is about to get lynched.

Claiming doesn't work, however, when the town can't scumhunt worth a damn and enjoys shooting itself in the foot like in BM XLI, and when there is also an anti-town Cop (which weakens the claim somewhat, but is still strong).

Ranger has managed to claim in every game I've ever played with him, and has always managed to do it before it's even day three.  In fact, he claimed cop day one in the most recent BM, under less then sizable pressure.  While it was a mistake to lynch him, it also was a mistake to claim.

Title: Re: BM XLII - In Signups! [3/9] - ICs Needed!
Post by: RangerCado on July 01, 2013, 09:25:57 am

I get it I get it! ...I'll just play normally, like when i used to play IRL.

Title: Re: BM XLII - In Signups! [0/9]
Post by: Leafsnail on July 01, 2013, 10:10:23 am

Quote from: griffinpup on July 01, 2013, 09:21:27 am

While it was a mistake to lynch him, it also was a mistake to claim.

No.  His decision to claim was completely correct.  There's no point in hiding the fact that you're a power role if you're about to die, because the mafia will find out what your role was when you roleflip anyway.

You should actually always give someone a chance to claim before lynching them for this reason.

Title: Re: BM XLII - In Signups! [3/9] - ICs Needed!
Post by: griffinpup on July 01, 2013, 10:31:19 am

Quote from: Leafsnail on July 01, 2013, 10:10:23 am

Quote from: griffinpup on July 01, 2013, 09:21:27 am

While it was a mistake to lynch him, it also was a mistake to claim.

No.  His decision to claim was completely correct.  There's no point in hiding the fact that you're a power role if you're about to die, because the mafia will find out what your role was when you roleflip anyway.

You should actually always give someone a chance to claim before lynching them for this reason.

If he was about to be lynched, sure.  He wasn't.  Sure, the most votes were on him at the time, but there wasn't actually much pressure on him.  His claim was far too premature to be "completely correct."

Title: Re: BM XLII - In Signups! [3/9] - ICs Needed!
Post by: Nerjin on July 01, 2013, 02:23:55 pm

IC in unless someone more qualified comes along.

Title: Re: BM XLII - In Signups! [3/9] - ICs Needed!
Post by: Leafsnail on July 01, 2013, 03:51:55 pm

There wasn't much time left in the day at all.  Under normal rulesets you claim when you're one vote away from being lynched, but it's pretty difficult to know when to claim when the deadline is constantly changing and really close.

Title: Re: BM XLII - In Signups! [3/9] - ICs Needed!
Post by: lordnincompoop on July 01, 2013, 05:42:16 pm

Quote from: griffinpup on July 01, 2013, 10:31:19 am

If he was about to be lynched, sure.  He wasn't.  Sure, the most votes were on him at the time, but there wasn't actually much pressure on him.  His claim was far too premature to be "completely correct."

A decent majority vote is more pressure than words will ever be. Ranger wasn't wrong at all when he said the people on him weren't coming off, considering they had just pasted them there and then faffed around in the interim.

Quote from: Dariush on July 01, 2013, 06:48:46 am

I think that in this case the fault for lynching Cado lied with the town. Mafia don't really have an incentive to fakeclaim on D1 due to risk of counterclaim by the actual cop.

That's true. Even if there was a scum cop, there really isn't a situation where it'd be worth claiming as one.

Title: Re: BM XLII - In Signups! [3/9] - ICs Needed!
Post by: mastahcheese on July 01, 2013, 05:56:21 pm

I've read a few of these games, and they look like fun.

I might join, not sure yet.

Title: Re: BM XLII - In Signups! [3/9] - ICs Needed!
Post by: griffinpup on July 01, 2013, 06:20:35 pm

Join, MastahCheese, join!  This is at least as fun as RPing a very stupid dwarf.

Title: Re: BM XLII - In Signups! [3/9] - ICs Needed!
Post by: mastahcheese on July 01, 2013, 06:35:34 pm

But I don't like RPing, I like stabbing people in the back.

Title: Re: BM XLII - In Signups! [3/9] - ICs Needed!
Post by: Tiruin on July 01, 2013, 06:38:21 pm

We're doomed. He gets the point. :p

Title: Re: BM XLII - In Signups! [3/9] - ICs Needed!
Post by: Leafsnail on July 01, 2013, 06:40:44 pm

There is the possibility of mafia claiming cop, but there isn't really any harm in leaving a mafia-claimed-cop alive for another day, while there is a large benefit in leaving a town-claimed-cop alive for another day.

Title: Re: BM XLII - In Signups! [3/9] - ICs Needed!
Post by: griffinpup on July 01, 2013, 06:52:58 pm

Quote from: Leafsnail on July 01, 2013, 06:40:44 pm

There is the possibility of mafia claiming cop, but there isn't really any harm in leaving a mafia-claimed-cop alive for another day, while there is a large benefit in leaving a town-claimed-cop alive for another day.

Well... Duh.  I totally agree with this statement.  Notice how I voted.

Title: Re: BM XLII - In Signups! [3/9] - ICs Needed!
Post by: Okami No Rei on July 01, 2013, 07:00:34 pm

Quote from: mastahcheese on July 01, 2013, 06:35:34 pm

But I don't like RPing, I like stabbing people in the back.

Join us!

Don't worry overmuch about RP'ing.  Flavour is typically left up to the mod, and it's entirely up to you whether you want to role with it or just play the game.

Title: Re: BM XLII - In Signups! [3/9] - ICs Needed!
Post by: Nerjin on July 01, 2013, 07:50:48 pm

Quote from: Okami No Rei on July 01, 2013, 07:00:34 pm

. . . you want to role with it or just play the game.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! IT'S A PUN!

Title: Re: BM XLII - In Signups! [0/9]
Post by: Griffionday on July 01, 2013, 08:26:36 pm

Mod:

You may have missed this:

Quote from: griffinpup on June 27, 2013, 11:19:33 am

Meh.  In, by the way.  I think that doubling the extension time is a viable alternative.  Not letting the day end within twelve hours would let someone infinitely extend the day all by themselves.  This gives way too much power to one person.

Title: Re: BM XLII - In Signups! [4/9] - IC Needed!
Post by: Vector on July 01, 2013, 08:50:15 pm

If it had been anyone but RangerCado, I would agree that I had made a mistake.

As-is... iffy.

Title: Re: BM XLII - In Signups! [4/9] - IC Needed!
Post by: Lenglon on July 02, 2013, 12:03:15 am

I don't think I made a mistake there. I have no regrets about lynching Ranger-claimed-cop at all!  :P

Title: Re: BM XLII - In Signups! [5/9] - IC Needed!
Post by: Teneb on July 02, 2013, 12:02:26 pm

I believe I said this before but Ranger simply breaks too easily under pressure. He needs to become better at handling pressure or all games will result in him claiming and then being lynched.

Title: Re: BM XLII - In Signups! [5/9] - IC Needed!
Post by: Hapah on July 02, 2013, 03:14:47 pm

I think I'll ease back in to playing Mafia. It's been a while, strangers!

(And I'd be happy to IC. I'd say I've got the experience for it, yeah?)

Title: Re: BM XLII - In Signups! [5/9] - IC Needed!
Post by: Nerjin on July 02, 2013, 03:16:46 pm

Quote from: Hapah on July 02, 2013, 03:14:47 pm

I think I'll ease back in to playing Mafia. It's been a while, strangers!

(And I'd be happy to IC. I'd say I've got the experience for it, yeah?)

Old Hat to the forum?

Title: Re: BM XLII - In Signups! [5/9] - IC Needed!
Post by: Hapah on July 02, 2013, 03:17:56 pm

I wouldn't say Old hat. Middle-age hat, maybe!

Title: Re: BM XLII - In Signups! [5/9] - IC Needed!
Post by: Shakerag on July 02, 2013, 04:43:28 pm

Quote from: Hapah on July 02, 2013, 03:14:47 pm

(And I'd be happy to IC. I'd say I've got the experience for it, yeah?)

*squints*

Title: Re: BM XLII - In Signups! [5/9] - IC Needed!
Post by: Tiruin on July 02, 2013, 05:06:27 pm

Quote from: Shakerag on July 02, 2013, 04:43:28 pm

Quote from: Hapah on July 02, 2013, 03:14:47 pm

(And I'd be happy to IC. I'd say I've got the experience for it, yeah?)

*squints*

I'd vouch for him. I know you would Shakerag. :p

Though, hopefully work isn't killing you :/

Title: Re: BM XLII - In Signups! [5/9] - IC Needed!
Post by: Hapah on July 02, 2013, 05:13:22 pm

Nah, that traveling stuff is done. I got roped into it because I was local to the work, but it's over now. Work is actually pretty tame these days!

Title: Re: BM XLII - In Signups! [5/9] - IC Needed!
Post by: Shakerag on July 02, 2013, 05:23:01 pm

Quote from: Tiruin on July 02, 2013, 05:06:27 pm

I'd vouch for him. I know you would Shakerag. :p

I'm still bitter about BM 34.

Title: Re: BM XLII - In Signups! [5/9] - IC Needed!
Post by: Okami No Rei on July 02, 2013, 07:58:06 pm

Quote from: Shakerag on July 02, 2013, 05:23:01 pm

Quote from: Tiruin on July 02, 2013, 05:06:27 pm

I'd vouch for him. I know you would Shakerag. :p

I'm still bitter about BM 34.

Join us then.

FOR REVENGE!

Title: Re: BM XLII - In Signups! [5/9] - IC Needed!
Post by: Tiruin on July 02, 2013, 11:07:01 pm

Quote from: Shakerag on July 02, 2013, 05:23:01 pm

Quote from: Tiruin on July 02, 2013, 05:06:27 pm

I'd vouch for him. I know you would Shakerag. :p

I'm still bitter about BM 34.

I love you too.

@Hapah: You do know that without bolding the Playing IC part you're in as a player, right?

...I'm not playing in this time. Spoilspec'!

Title: Re: BM XLII - In Signups! [6/9] - Starting in 3...
Post by: Hapah on July 02, 2013, 11:34:47 pm

He's got me listed as an IC, so it all worked out.

Title: Re: BM XLII - In Signups! [6/9] - Starting in 3...
Post by: Tiruin on July 02, 2013, 11:36:46 pm

I like how roles were made for each and every available BM role. :p

Title: Re: BM XLII - In Signups! [6/9] - Starting in 3...
Post by: Okami No Rei on July 02, 2013, 11:38:05 pm

Quote from: Tiruin on July 02, 2013, 11:07:01 pm

@Hapah: You do know that without bolding the Playing IC part you're in as a player, right?

Fortunately for him, the mod didn't think to check for that.
NINJEDIT: What he said.

Quote from: Tiruin on July 02, 2013, 11:07:01 pm

...I'm not playing in this time. Spoilspec'!

Also, I added you to the spoilspec list the first time you asked.  There's nothing to spoil yet.

Title: Re: BM XLII - In Signups! [6/9] - Starting in 3...
Post by: Powder Miner on July 04, 2013, 01:30:03 pm

Please do allow me to shamefully stick my head back into this board. Starting with a Beginner's Mafia. (I'm seriously that bad, after all.)

Title: Re: BM XLII - In Signups! [6/9] - Starting in 3...
Post by: Dariush on July 04, 2013, 02:02:08 pm

I'd recommend not starting the game until you have at least one replacement and, if some complete newbie arrives, shifting some at least somewhat experienced people (like everyone playing right now) onto the replacement list in his favour.

Oh, and I'd like a spoilspec.

Title: Re: BM XLII - In Signups! [7/9] - 2...
Post by: Okami No Rei on July 04, 2013, 02:06:37 pm

Determined to get yourself out of the possible replacement pool, eh?

Title: Re: BM XLII - In Signups! [6/9] - Starting in 3...
Post by: Griffionday on July 04, 2013, 03:01:56 pm

Quote from: Powder Miner on July 04, 2013, 01:30:03 pm

Please do allow me to shamefully stick my head back into this board. Starting with a Beginner's Mafia. (I'm seriously that bad, after all.)

If you know you're bad you're probably fine.  And this is the right place to start.

Welcome!

Title: Re: BM XLII - In Signups! [7/9] - 2...
Post by: Leafsnail on July 04, 2013, 03:39:42 pm

If you're prepared to post and then continue posting while the game is going you're probably ok.

Title: Re: BM XLII - In Signups! [7/9] - 2...
Post by: Powder Miner on July 04, 2013, 08:05:26 pm

Quote from: Leafsnail on July 04, 2013, 03:39:42 pm

If you're prepared to post and then continue posting while the game is going you're probably ok.

yes i will no longer flake
this was an issue towards the end of my previous tenure on the mafia board
...Also I will never ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever host a game. Ever.
Never.

Title: Re: BM XLII - In Signups! [7/9] - 2...
Post by: RangerCado on July 06, 2013, 08:38:23 pm

*sigh* going to half to back out of this unfortunately. My next couple weeks are going to be too busy to play until all of that stuff is over. Sorry guys, i'll catch ya in the next game.

Title: Re: BM XLII - In Signups! [6/9]
Post by: Imperial Guardsman on July 09, 2013, 08:31:46 am

Yeah, uhm, Sorry about my rage in toon mafia, was tired, dealing with lots of stuff, etc.. I think ill stick to Beginner Mafias.... So in

Title: Re: BM XLII - In Signups! [7/9]
Post by: DaveTheGrave on July 11, 2013, 10:21:17 pm

i'm in

Title: Re: BM XLII - In Signups! [8/9] - One more!
Post by: Hapah on July 15, 2013, 10:31:58 pm

Tenative Out.

Title: Re: BM XLII - In Signups! [8/9] - One more!
Post by: Nerjin on July 15, 2013, 10:52:13 pm

Well that sucks. Any reason why?

Title: Re: BM XLII - In Signups! [7/9]
Post by: TheWetSheep on July 16, 2013, 04:10:17 pm

I'm gonna be gone from tomorrow until Saturday, just in case the game starts up by then.

Title: Re: BM XLII - In Signups! [7/9]
Post by: Nerjin on July 22, 2013, 12:40:47 am

Mod: Remove Hapah's name from the OP. You mention that he's not there sorta with the [1/2] thing BUT striking through bold doesn't really show up.

Title: Re: BM XLII - In Signups! [7/9]
Post by: Okami No Rei on July 22, 2013, 04:49:36 am

Weird.  Shows up fine on my computer.  Fixed anyway.

Title: Re: BM XLII - In Signups! [7/9]
Post by: Nerjin on July 24, 2013, 01:59:18 am

Mah boi, of course. We have space. Though we do need a IC but that's a conversation for another time.

Title: Re: BM XLII - In Signups! [8/9] - Need IC!
Post by: notquitethere on July 24, 2013, 05:29:20 am

Oh all right I'll be nice: to the mines!

Title: Re: BM XLII - In Signups! [8/9] - Need IC!
Post by: Nerjin on July 24, 2013, 05:34:45 am

I hate the mines. Too many short people.

Title: Re: BM XLII - In Signups! [8/9] - Need IC!
Post by: Dariush on July 24, 2013, 06:58:40 am

Quote from: notquitethere on July 24, 2013, 05:29:20 am

Oh all right I'll be nice: to the mines!

No. Nonono. No. NO. HELL NO. NO WAY. NEVER. NONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONO. NO. Seriously, no. NOOOOOOOOO.

Title: Re: BM XLII - In Signups! [8/9] - Need IC!
Post by: notquitethere on July 24, 2013, 07:55:26 am

I: 'inexperience' C: 'challenged'; I've played about a dozen games here. I qualify.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

(http://cdn.smosh.com/sites/default/files/bloguploads/u-mad-1.jpg)

Title: Re: BM XLII - In Signups! [8/9] - Need IC!
Post by: Dariush on July 24, 2013, 08:16:16 am

Quote from: notquitethere on July 24, 2013, 07:55:26 am

I: 'inexperience' C: 'challenged'; I've played about a dozen games here. I qualify.

No you don't, because you play mafia worse than a lobotomized gorilla on drugs.

Title: Re: BM XLII - In Signups! [8/9] - Need IC!
Post by: notquitethere on July 24, 2013, 08:28:01 am

Quote from: Dariush on July 24, 2013, 08:16:16 am

Quote from: notquitethere on July 24, 2013, 07:55:26 am

I: 'inexperience' C: 'challenged'; I've played about a dozen games here. I qualify.

No you don't, because you play mafia worse than a lobotomized gorilla on drugs.

Okay Big D, I take your reasoned critique on board and I solemnly promise to play a flawless mafia game from this day forth.

Title: Re: BM XLII - In Signups! [8/9] - Need IC!
Post by: Shakerag on July 24, 2013, 08:49:35 am

Quote from: Dariush on July 24, 2013, 08:16:16 am

Quote from: notquitethere on July 24, 2013, 07:55:26 am

I: 'inexperience' C: 'challenged'; I've played about a dozen games here. I qualify.

No you don't, because you play mafia worse than a lobotomized gorilla on drugs.

*slow clap*

Title: Re: BM XLII - In Signups! [8/9] - Need IC!
Post by: Tiruin on July 24, 2013, 09:01:09 am

Go NQT! :D

Title: Re: BM XLII - In Signups! [8/9] - Need IC!
Post by: Imperial Guardsman on July 24, 2013, 09:19:49 am

If i get a killing role, dariush is first kill.

Title: Re: BM XLII - In Signups! [8/9] - Need IC!
Post by: Tiruin on July 24, 2013, 09:26:09 am

He's a spoiled spectator--not a player.

Title: Re: BM XLII - In Signups! [8/9] - Need IC!
Post by: Imperial Guardsman on July 24, 2013, 10:35:05 am

Oh. Also, why are some of the role PMs crossed out?

Title: Re: BM XLII - In Signups! [8/9] - Need IC!
Post by: notquitethere on July 24, 2013, 11:16:24 am

The BM text is one big template that gets reused over and over, and there was a very recent change made to the role set-up. My guess is, if this is successful, the crossed out roles will be gone by the next game, if it's disastrous it'll probably revert back.

Title: Re: BM XLII - In Signups! [8/9] - Need IC!
Post by: TheWetSheep on July 24, 2013, 11:58:48 am

Conditional out. I'm going to be leaving for ~2 weeks on August 11, and the game probably won't be over by then, so I'd need a replacement. Its up to you: do I just play for the first part and get replaced when it comes up, or just let someone take my spot for the whole game?

Title: Re: BM XLII - [9/9] - Getting Started!
Post by: Okami No Rei on July 24, 2013, 12:36:56 pm

I would suggest that Dariush take your place, but I'm just the mod.  That should be plenty of time to find a replacement.

Anyway, I'm going to prep the game to start tonight around 8:00pm CST.  I'll be sending out role PMs around 6:00pm CST.

Since we've taken so long to get started, I'd like to request this of my players:

Please PM me or post in this thread that you're still ready and willing to play.

If you do not do so before Thursday, July 25 at 8:00pm, you will be mod-replaced (assuming I have replacements).

I will be sending PMs to that effect.

Title: Re: BM XLII - [9/9] - Starting Soon(TM)!
Post by: Nerjin on July 24, 2013, 12:45:35 pm

Am I still in? But of course!

Title: Re: BM XLII - [9/9] - Starting Soon(TM)!
Post by: griffinpup on July 24, 2013, 12:51:52 pm

I'm ready!  Let's aimlessly lynch EVERYONE until I win.

Title: Re: BM XLII - [9/9] - Starting Soon(TM)!
Post by: notquitethere on July 24, 2013, 12:57:22 pm

Confirming!

Title: Re: BM XLII - [9/9] - Starting Soon(TM)!
Post by: Imperial Guardsman on July 24, 2013, 01:02:07 pm

Confirmiing in the thread too incase something happens
What fun this will be, de arimasu...

Title: Re: BM XLII - [9/9] - Starting Soon(TM)!
Post by: DaveTheGrave on July 24, 2013, 01:14:35 pm

Sound like fun. Confirming.

Title: Re: BM XLII - [9/9] - Starting Soon(TM)!
Post by: Shakerag on July 24, 2013, 01:35:21 pm

/popcorn

Quote from: notquitethere on July 24, 2013, 07:55:26 am

I: 'inexperience' C: 'challenged'; I've played about a dozen games here. I qualify.

Technically speaking, after giving this some thought, NQT does have "experience".  Assuming that "lack of inexperience" is the only qualification, then he's approved. 

It is, of course, up to the reader to determine what one has done with that experience. 

Title: Re: BM XLII - [9/9] - Starting Soon(TM)!
Post by: Nerjin on July 24, 2013, 01:56:03 pm

I've never really noticed NQT to be THAT bad... I always thought he was somewhat decent.

Title: Re: BM XLII - [9/9] - Starting Soon(TM)!
Post by: TheWetSheep on July 24, 2013, 02:01:49 pm

Confirming.

And having amazingly good IC's isn't crucial. You get a different, arguably better experience without them.

Title: Re: BM XLII - [9/9] - Starting Soon(TM)!
Post by: griffinpup on July 24, 2013, 02:05:46 pm

Also, the
"Achievement Get!  Lynch the ICs" is probably easier with worse ICs.

Title: Re: BM XLII - [9/9] - Starting Soon(TM)!
Post by: Nerjin on July 24, 2013, 02:07:52 pm

Free bit of Advice: Lynching the IC's just do so isn't the best play.

Also I hate achievements.

---

With regards to having good IC's: Yes you get a different experience. But they need to be somewhat decent to lend a helping hand to those who don't know the flow of the game y'know?

Title: Re: BM XLII - [9/9] - Starting Soon(TM)!
Post by: griffinpup on July 24, 2013, 02:18:10 pm

I like achievements!  But only meaningful ones.  Like FTL and Rogue Legacy achievements.

Title: Re: BM XLII - [9/9] - Starting Soon(TM)!
Post by: Nerjin on July 24, 2013, 02:20:17 pm

I dunno. I feel like they usually just get in the way. "Get to this story section!" Yay awesome! Thanks. I already knew I got there, and now you're blocking the screen and breaking my immersion. But no really thanks! I tend to just turn them off.

Title: Re: BM XLII - [9/9] - Starting Soon(TM)!
Post by: griffinpup on July 24, 2013, 02:22:27 pm

You clearly play the wrong games. :D  But I see where you're coming from.

Title: Re: BM XLII - [9/9] - Starting Soon(TM)!
Post by: Nerjin on July 24, 2013, 02:26:01 pm

Sir or Madam, if games such as: Dark Souls, Red Dead Redemption, Metal Gear Solid 3, Telltale's The Walking Dead [still need to finish.], and Left 4 Dead are the wrong games than I don't want to play the right ones. Probably CoD or whatever. I hate Modern Military FPS games as much as any other gaming thing you could name.

Title: Re: BM XLII - [9/9] - Starting Soon(TM)!
Post by: Shakerag on July 24, 2013, 02:28:37 pm

Quote from: Nerjin on July 24, 2013, 02:07:52 pm

Also I hate achievements.

Achievement unlocked:  Achievement Hipster

Title: Re: BM XLII - [9/9] - Starting Soon(TM)!
Post by: Nerjin on July 24, 2013, 02:31:11 pm

I... You... You son of a bitch. Clever little bastard got me. Well no. I win.

Title: Re: BM XLII - [9/9] - Starting Soon(TM)!
Post by: griffinpup on July 24, 2013, 02:32:42 pm

Sir, by the way.

But CoD is in no way the right games.  The only FPS game that I really like is Natural Selection 2, but that's a first person biter too, so I'm not really sure it counts.  I really like insanely super difficult games to most, currently FTL and Rogue Legacy.  Dota and League of Legends isn't that bad either.

Title: Re: BM XLII - [9/9] - Starting Soon(TM)!
Post by: Nerjin on July 24, 2013, 02:35:09 pm

I've never heard of Natural Selection, FTL, or Rogue Legacy. The "DOTA" genre is something I haven't been interested in since Warcraft 3 so I don't know. It might do decent achievements but then again that game isn't really about immersion.

Title: Re: BM XLII - [9/9] - Starting Soon(TM)!
Post by: DaveTheGrave on July 24, 2013, 02:42:00 pm

Quote from: Nerjin on July 24, 2013, 02:35:09 pm

I've never heard of Natural Selection, FTL, or Rogue Legacy. The "DOTA" genre is something I haven't been interested in since Warcraft 3 so I don't know. It might do decent achievements but then again that game isn't really about immersion.

Ther called MOBA's not DOTA's, DOTA is a game lol. Dota 2 is fun. Anywho, Im more of starcraft guy anyway.

Title: Re: BM XLII - [9/9] - Starting Soon(TM)!
Post by: griffinpup on July 24, 2013, 02:46:03 pm

Starcraft is good too. 

Title: Re: BM XLII - [9/9] - Starting Soon(TM)!
Post by: Griffionday on July 24, 2013, 02:47:13 pm

In.  I'm more a Knytt Underground type of guy.

Title: Re: BM XLII - [9/9] - Starting Soon(TM)!
Post by: Imperial Guardsman on July 24, 2013, 02:48:25 pm

Im more of an RTS kind of guy, i prefer the cheap poor health and damage zerg kekekeke rush factions. Oh, and MOBAs

Title: Re: BM XLII - [9/9] - Starting Soon(TM)!
Post by: Lenglon on July 24, 2013, 02:51:02 pm

by MOBA you mean AoS, right?

Title: Re: BM XLII - [9/9] - Starting Soon(TM)!
Post by: Imperial Guardsman on July 24, 2013, 02:58:14 pm

No, i mean Dota 2, League of Legends, Heroes of Newer- nevermind that last one. And smite.

Title: Re: BM XLII - [9/9] - Starting Soon(TM)!
Post by: griffinpup on July 24, 2013, 03:00:46 pm

I prefer the ADC's in most generic RPDs, but what I really love are all of the NORMEGs.  But you got to admit that the RPS's in most DRSN's are IMBA.  Oh well... What can you do except RFNSGE?

Title: Re: BM XLII - [9/9] - Starting Soon(TM)!
Post by: Imperial Guardsman on July 24, 2013, 03:03:22 pm

STOP USING FUCKING ACRONYMS

Title: Re: BM XLII - [9/9] - Starting Soon(TM)!
Post by: Nerjin on July 24, 2013, 03:51:19 pm

Quote from: griffinpup on July 24, 2013, 03:00:46 pm

I prefer the ADC's in most generic RPDs, but what I really love are all of the NORMEGs.  But you got to admit that the RPS's in most DRSN's are IMBA.  Oh well... What can you do except RFNSGE?

You're making all of those up...

Title: Re: BM XLII - [9/9] - Starting Soon(TM)!
Post by: Lenglon on July 24, 2013, 04:15:06 pm

Quote from: Nerjin on July 24, 2013, 03:51:19 pm

Quote from: griffinpup on July 24, 2013, 03:00:46 pm

I prefer the ADC's in most generic RPDs, but what I really love are all of the NORMEGs.  But you got to admit that the RPS's in most DRSN's are IMBA.  Oh well... What can you do except RFNSGE?

You're making all of those up...

ADC = Attack Damage Carry, it's someone you uses very powerful basic attacks to do the majority of their team's damage,  (and sacrifice their personal survivability to do so) by doing so they effectively "carry" the team, hence the name.

IMBA = Imbalanced, used to refer to overpowered characters, items, or tactics.

I don't know the rest, but I suspect they're real though obscure.

AoS = Aeon of Strife, the predecessor to DOTA and its various clones. In the Warcraft III community (where DOTA started) it is used as the name of the style of game DOTA, LoL, HoN, and suchlike all fall into, by virtue of it being first.

Title: Re: BM XLII - [9/9] - Starting Soon(TM)!
Post by: Okami No Rei on July 24, 2013, 05:17:44 pm

Game doesn't officially start until 8:00pm tonight (in order to fit day/night ending in my schedule), but I'm ready to go so I'll start the game now.

Locking the thread and sending out roles.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day One - A Cunning Plan
Post by: Okami No Rei on July 24, 2013, 05:32:22 pm

Beginner's Mafia XLII
Aquifer Cats - Day One

Spoiler: A Cunning Plan (click to show/hide)

Still and silent, the sable assassin watched as her unwitting quarry approached its end.

Her moment came.

The seamless switch from statue to storm spelled out a sentence of death for her prey.

"In here!"

"What you find?"

"Old room.  No dwarfs.  We hide here."

A group of goblins barged into her domain.  Too many.  She took up her meal in her jaws and retreated into the shadows.

"Why bridge close?  They not spot us!"

Two goblins were carrying a box.  It smelled of dwarven sweat, and at least three species of fungus.  They dropped it on the floor in the middle of the room.

"Right!  They not spot us.  We keep it that way, and sneak out when bridge not close."

The box wasn't the only thing that smelled of dwarven sweat.  Two of the "goblins" reeked of it.

One goblin squinted, hand on its chin, and a puff of smoke escaped its ears.

"If they not spot us, how they know to close bridge?"

Silence fell over the room as they pondered this query.  One of the "goblins" spoke up.

"Perhaps we have a traitor in ou..."

The other "goblin" interrupted him with a hammer to the back of his head.

"Yes! That it.  We have a tray...  a tree...  How you say that word?"

"traitor", the first "goblin" offered.

"Yes! That! We have one of those.  We kill him!"

The goblin hefted its spear, turning to point it at one of its fellows.

"It's you!  You are the...  the..."

"traitor", the "goblin" spoke once again.

"You are the thing that he said and you must die!"

The object of its assault dodged the spear, then backed off and drew a sword of its own.

"Me?  It not me!"

"Not you? Then who?"

The first "goblin" punched the second in the face, breaking his nose and dropping him to the floor, then stepped forward.

"Brothers, please.  Do not squabble.  I have a solution for this predicament."

The other goblins stared at him with quizzical expressions, some with a hint of suspicion glinting in their eyes.

He sighed as he brought his hand to his face.

"I know how to find the snitch."

The goblins relaxed.

"You do?  How?"

"Simple.  We put it to a vote.  Everyone says who they think is the snitch, and at the end of the day, whoever has the most votes, well, we kill them."

"This will find the snitch?"

"Absolutely guaranteed.  Eventually."

"What if it do not work?"

"We just kill someone new each day until we either find the snitch or the bridge opens."

"I like it.  Is good plan.  We make snitch pay."

Day 1 has begun.  Day ends on Monday, July 29 at 8:00pm CST

Votecount

TheWetSheep (0) -
griffinpup (0) -
Griffionday (0) -
Powder Miner (0) -
Imperial Guardsman (0) -
DaveTheGrave (0) -
Boy (0) -
Nerjin (0) -
notquitethere (0) -

Not Voting - TheWetSheep, griffinpup, Griffionday, Powder Miner, Imperial Guardsman, Dave The Grave, Boy, Nerjin, notquitethere

Extend (0/4) -
Shorten (0/5) -

TheWetSheep has Requested Replacement on or before Sunday, August 11.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day One - A Cunning Plan
Post by: griffinpup on July 24, 2013, 05:40:39 pm

Boy:
OMGUS

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day One - A Cunning Plan
Post by: DaveTheGrave on July 24, 2013, 05:42:48 pm

Since first votes are entirely random, I vote imperial.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day One - A Cunning Plan
Post by: mastahcheese on July 24, 2013, 05:42:56 pm

((Puts on 3-D glasses, drinks soda))

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day One - A Cunning Plan
Post by: zombie urist on July 24, 2013, 05:44:45 pm

Good luck have fun everyone!

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day One - A Cunning Plan
Post by: Okami No Rei on July 24, 2013, 05:54:30 pm

Quote from: DaveTheGrave on July 24, 2013, 05:42:48 pm

Since first votes are entirely random, I vote imperial.

Quote from: Okami No Rei on June 27, 2013, 12:20:18 am

• Voting - Votes are cast in red and should include the name of the targeted player. Other colors may be ignored.
  • Okami No Rei
  • Vote Okami No Rei
  • Okami No Rei is lying scum!
  • Vote Okami
  • Vote ONR
  Are all acceptable ways to cast a vote if the target is clear enough.
  
  • If you want to remove your vote, you may put unvote in red text. You must explicitly state this.  It is possible to put the name of the player you were voting afterwards, but it is not recommended as it can lead to confusion.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day One - A Cunning Plan
Post by: Nerjin on July 24, 2013, 06:02:08 pm

Quote from: DaveTheGrave on July 24, 2013, 05:42:48 pm

Since first votes are entirely random, I vote imperial.

Put all votes in Red.

---

Generally games on Bay12 start with the "Random Voting Stage" [RVS] don't get too flustered if you acquire a few votes here or there. This is usually accompanied by a few question. Not something like "What is your favorite flavor of ice-cream" Please try to keep most conversation on topic. A bit of deviation is fine but please recall that there are other places [General Discussion] for that sorta thing. Please, also, try not to simply vote. Ask questions. Stimulate conversation. A lurky game is a boring game. Believe me when I say that lurking doesn't make the game fun for anyone.

For those of you who are new please read the Original Post [OP]. Already read it? Read it again. Even pros [I.E. Not me] can forget some basic stuff. Don't worry too much about winning. This is a beginner game. Winning is secondary. What you're here to do is learn.

That being said I like to start the RVS with a single question to every player that will help me get a feel for how they think. It works for me. That being said it might not work to you.

---

TheWetSheep: Which role would you most want to have? Which would you least like to have? Why?

Griffpup: I've seen you around a few times... Anyway who would you most prefer to have on the scum-team with or against you?

GriffDay: If you were scum would you pursue an easy lynch or would you try to push a different conclusion?

Powder Miner: It is day 3 and the player you've suspected most has died and been shown to be confirmed scum. Where do you go from there?

Imperial Guardsman: Which team would you prefer to be on and why?

DaveTheGrave: Assume you're the Warden [Jailkeeper if you like the lesser names]. What would you look for in whom you target?

Mah Boy: Peace is what all true warriors strive for. Let's assume you're the cop and you get an innocent inspection. However you feel like the mafia is onto you but you're not sure. Do you claim or bank on not getting caught?

Notquitethere: What advice would you like to offer to the new people [most of whom aren't new I've noticed...] and what's something you think they should really try to avoid? Furthermore what role would you like most and why?

---

If you have ANY questions at all feel free to ask me or NQT. We're here for your benefit. Do not be put off if you think a question might sound dumb. Asking is how you learn and like I said earlier learning is the most important thing here.

Lastly you should remember to have fun.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day One - A Cunning Plan
Post by: notquitethere on July 24, 2013, 06:22:14 pm

"Okay den gobbos, less go!"

Hello Everyone

I am an IC in this game. Sometimes I may offer gameplay advice, in general or to specific players. I will try to keep my advice uncontroversial and in a different font. If you want to ask me a gameplay related question I'll answer to the best of my knowledge. I am also a player in this game so I will also be trying to win, but I will endeavour never to deceive when using my IC-voice.

OK, let's start

DaveTheGrave, Powder Miner and Boy, a pleasure to see new faces. Have any of you had experience with Mafia before? I'd played a little bit live-action before coming to the forum, but it's a very different kettle of fish.

Griffinpup, even in the RVS I find it helps to try to make your vote do some work when you use it, otherwise the other player will feel little pressure.

Imperial Guardsman, what's the most important lesson you've learned from the few games you appeared in?

Nerjin

Quote from: Nerjin on July 24, 2013, 06:02:08 pm

Notquitethere: What advice would you like to offer to the new people [most of whom aren't new I've noticed...] and what's something you think they should really try to avoid? Furthermore what role would you like most and why?

Hmm... I think my main advice would be to look at how people use their votes. While a scum player might talk a good game, but ultimately they have to vote in their own interests. (But maybe you'll disagree on the weight this particular advice should be given.) I'd caution against fixating overly on just a few players. Scum often win by managing to be ignored. I'd pick jailkeeper as my favoured role as it has the most versatile tactical options-- you can use it against a suspected scum or use it to protect a suspected town player.

Honest question: do you think hypotheticals help catch scum or are they just good for starting the conversation rolling?

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day One - A Cunning Plan
Post by: Nerjin on July 24, 2013, 06:29:03 pm

Quote from: notquitethere on July 24, 2013, 06:22:14 pm

Hmm... I think my main advice would be to look at how people use their votes. While a scum player might talk a good game, but ultimately they have to vote in their own interests. (But maybe you'll disagree on the weight this particular advice should be given.)

Well in my personal taste it just seems like a townie is doing the same thing. I don't really see how votes would be the MOST important bit of information considering that in and of themselves they are a little worthless. Paired with context surrounding those votes is what makes them a powerful force to the town [or a particularly crafty scum player]. I just think that's an important distinction to note. The vote itself doesn't mean much to me but rather the reasoning and logic behind the vote.

Quote from: notquitethere on July 24, 2013, 06:22:14 pm

Honest question: do you think hypotheticals help catch scum or are they just good for starting the conversation rolling?

Both. They don't start paying off until later in the game however. It just helps get into their mind-set if you ask me. See if they're a defensive or offensive player.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day One - A Cunning Plan
Post by: Imperial Guardsman on July 24, 2013, 06:29:21 pm

Quote from: Nerjin on July 24, 2013, 06:02:08 pm

Imperial Guardsman: Which team would you prefer to be on and why?

I honestly have no preferences. Scum or town, Gobbin or Dorf, Doesnt really matter, As long as i have fun, if you ask me.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day One - A Cunning Plan
Post by: Imperial Guardsman on July 24, 2013, 06:30:10 pm

Quote from: notquitethere on July 24, 2013, 06:22:14 pm

Imperial Guardsman, what's the most important lesson you've learned from the few games you appeared in?

Actually, i learned 2 things. Ask more questions, and be more active.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day One - A Cunning Plan
Post by: Imperial Guardsman on July 24, 2013, 06:33:20 pm

Nerjin, you are a rolecop for the mafia. Who do you inspect first?
You rolecop and find the cop and the doctor. Which one do you and your scumbuddies lynch first?
Nerjin

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day One - A Cunning Plan
Post by: Nerjin on July 24, 2013, 06:38:23 pm

Important Note: While multiple posts are allowed it's best to put all your thoughts into a single post if possible. What IG just did is fine. It happens. But always hit preview before you post as you CANNOT EDIT YOUR POSTS. It also helps to try to be as concise as possible. Too much text just doesn't keep the readers attention most of the time.

---

Pre-post Edit [PPE:]

Quote from: Imperial Guardsman on July 24, 2013, 06:33:20 pm

Nerjin, you are a rolecop for the mafia. Who do you inspect first?
You['re the] rolecop and find the cop and the doctor. Which one do you and your scumbuddies lynch first?

Probably NQT as he's the most experienced of my possible targets in that situation.

Your second part is not really an issue. As a scum I wouldn't with-hold information. Whomever was found first would be NK'ed [Night Killed] the next night. BUT if I had to choose between elimination the Cop or the Jail-keeper [No doctor's in this set up] I'd choose the Jail-keeper.

The Cop can be counter-claimed. That eliminates his power for at least one day or at the very least casts it in doubt. The Jail Keeper however might actually protect a townie or worse lock either me or my scum-buddy down. Plus there isn't much we could do about it. So I'd go after the JK [Jail-keeper]

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day One - A Cunning Plan
Post by: TheWetSheep on July 24, 2013, 06:50:27 pm

OK!

Nerjin:

Quote from: Nerjin on July 24, 2013, 06:02:08 pm

TheWetSheep: Which role would you most want to have? Which would you least like to have? Why?

Most: Mafia role cop, since I've never been mafia and really want to try it. Role cop because I'd rather make the decision of who to inspect instead of letting my partner do it.

Least: Vanilla Townie, but if we're talking power roles then Jailkeeper. It would be stressful to have a role that can hurt town as well as scum.

You've said that you think the purpose of RVS is to trap scum in what they say later. Can you give me a situation in which this might work?


NQT: Is this question helpful?

Dave: How do you plan to find scum?

Griffinpup: Is that all? When does lurking become scummy?

Powder Miner: You've been gone for a while. How will your style have changed since you last played on this board? How will your style remain the same?

Boy: If you got a scum inspect result on Night 1 would you claim or wait and try to find the second one?

Imperial Guardsman: Why does RVS include voting? Why is it not just questions?

Griffionday: If you were scum at 3p LyLo and someone claimed cop but had no information on you or the third person, would you counter-claim?

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day One - A Cunning Plan
Post by: Imperial Guardsman on July 24, 2013, 06:52:33 pm

Quote from: TheWetSheep on July 24, 2013, 06:50:27 pm

Imperial Guardsman: Why does RVS include voting? Why is it not just questions?

Voting puts more pressure on people then questions. Pressure is good. When they crack, the information you get is quite useful.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day One - A Cunning Plan
Post by: Nerjin on July 24, 2013, 06:57:30 pm

Quote from: TheWetSheep on July 24, 2013, 06:50:27 pm

You've said that you think the purpose of RVS is to trap scum in what they say later. Can you give me a situation in which this might work?

When somebody acts in direct contradiction to what they have said earlier. Obviously there are other factors in it but for the most part people tend to stick with their general style throughout all their games.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day One - A Cunning Plan
Post by: Powder Miner on July 24, 2013, 07:26:18 pm

Quote from: Nerjin

Powder Miner: It is day 3 and the player you've suspected most has died and been shown to be confirmed scum. Where do you go from there?

I'll follow up by going and questioning my other reads, and if for some reason I don't have them, I'll go for whoever I can get the scummiest read on with some questioning.

Quote from: nawtquwitethar

DaveTheGrave, Powder Miner and Boy, a pleasure to see new faces. Have any of you had experience with Mafia before? I'd played a little bit live-action before coming to the forum, but it's a very different kettle of fish.

Ehehe, new, riiight. No, I'm not new to Mafia, having played on this very board, but I am returning from a long hiatus I took due to simply sucking.

Quote from: TheWetSheep on July 24, 2013, 06:50:27 pm

Powder Miner: You've been gone for a while. How will your style have changed since you last played on this board? How will your style remain the same?

My hiatus from the board was long, and I've matured somewhat during it. It's been long enough, that I've forgot what I had been trying to do with my style- but I do remember that it was far too passive. What I intend to do with my style is change that, becoming a lot more questioning, and a lot more aggressive.

Onto questioning from me.
Wetsheep: Say you're town, and it's LyLo. You're positively convinced that someone is scum, but on the other hand, they're laying into you with equal force. The third person on the other hand, is though questioning both of you, not merely as aggressive. What sort of tactics do you use to try and turn the tide and garner the support of the third man?
griffinpup: You don't have long on the computer, but before you have to get off, you want to make a post? What sort of things do you keep out in order to have enough time to type the post out? What do you leave in?
Griffionday: You're cop, and you claim such. However, the man you claim is scum counterclaims as a cop, providing someone totally different as an investigation. How do you prove yourself?
Imperial Guardsman: Let's say you're scum. You're about to get lynched. However, your scumbuddy has been gaining a significant amount of attention as well as you. If you convince them he's scum, you can get him lynched and maybe survive yourself. Do you?
DaveTheSomber: Through an exceptionally bad play by town and clever fishing by your scumbuddy, the doctor and cop have been revealed in one day! Who do you prioritize on killing?
Boy: You're a mafia roleblocker. It's Night 1. How would you decide to roleblock?
Nerjin: It's MyLo. Do you wait until it's LyLo or try to make the lynch right then and there?
Notquitethere: How much do you think you can lie about the game before people get suspicious?

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day One - A Cunning Plan
Post by: Imperial Guardsman on July 24, 2013, 07:40:08 pm

Quote from: Powder Miner on July 24, 2013, 07:26:18 pm

Imperial Guardsman: Let's say you're scum. You're about to get lynched. However, your scumbuddy has been gaining a significant amount of attention as well as you. If you convince them he's scum, you can get him lynched and maybe survive yourself. Do you?

Yes

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day One - A Cunning Plan
Post by: DaveTheGrave on July 24, 2013, 07:43:02 pm

Quote from: Powder Miner on July 24, 2013, 07:26:18 pm

Quote from: Nerjin

Powder Miner: It is day 3 and the player you've suspected most has died and been shown to be confirmed scum. Where do you go from there?

I'll follow up by going and questioning my other reads, and if for some reason I don't have them, I'll go for whoever I can get the scummiest read on with some questioning.

Quote from: nawtquwitethar

DaveTheGrave, Powder Miner and Boy, a pleasure to see new faces. Have any of you had experience with Mafia before? I'd played a little bit live-action before coming to the forum, but it's a very different kettle of fish.

Ehehe, new, riiight. No, I'm not new to Mafia, having played on this very board, but I am returning from a long hiatus I took due to simply sucking.

Quote from: TheWetSheep on July 24, 2013, 06:50:27 pm

Powder Miner: You've been gone for a while. How will your style have changed since you last played on this board? How will your style remain the same?

My hiatus from the board was long, and I've matured somewhat during it. It's been long enough, that I've forgot what I had been trying to do with my style- but I do remember that it was far too passive. What I intend to do with my style is change that, becoming a lot more questioning, and a lot more aggressive.

Onto questioning from me.
Wetsheep: Say you're town, and it's LyLo. You're positively convinced that someone is scum, but on the other hand, they're laying into you with equal force. The third person on the other hand, is though questioning both of you, not merely as aggressive. What sort of tactics do you use to try and turn the tide and garner the support of the third man?
griffinpup: You don't have long on the computer, but before you have to get off, you want to make a post? What sort of things do you keep out in order to have enough time to type the post out? What do you leave in?
Griffionday: You're cop, and you claim such. However, the man you claim is scum counterclaims as a cop, providing someone totally different as an investigation. How do you prove yourself?
Imperial Guardsman: Let's say you're scum. You're about to get lynched. However, your scumbuddy has been gaining a significant amount of attention as well as you. If you convince them he's scum, you can get him lynched and maybe survive yourself. Do you?
DaveTheSomber: Through an exceptionally bad play by town and clever fishing by your scumbuddy, the doctor and cop have been revealed in one day! Who do you prioritize on killing?
Boy: You're a mafia roleblocker. It's Night 1. How would you decide to roleblock?
Nerjin: It's MyLo. Do you wait until it's LyLo or try to make the lynch right then and there?
Notquitethere: How much do you think you can lie about the game before people get suspicious?

Well seeing as I'm not scum, I dont have much to worry about. The ideal you know who both scum are is somewhat suspicious on its own. Also I boted for imperial at random, and your idea is he's my "Scumbuddy". Your logic is at a fualt.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day One - A Cunning Plan
Post by: Nerjin on July 24, 2013, 07:55:13 pm

Quote from: DaveTheGrave on July 24, 2013, 07:43:02 pm

Quote from: Powder Miner on July 24, 2013, 07:26:18 pm

DaveTheSomber: Through an exceptionally bad play by town and clever fishing by your scumbuddy, the doctor and cop have been revealed in one day! Who do you prioritize on killing?

Well seeing as I'm not scum, I dont have much to worry about. The ideal you know who both scum are is somewhat suspicious on its own. Also I boted for imperial at random, and your idea is he's my "Scumbuddy". Your logic is at a fualt.

Eh... Not really relevant Dave. These are hypothetical questions. He didn't call you scum at all actually just said "If you are scum then...". He never indicated that he knows who both, or even one, of the scum are. He also didn't mention anybody being your scum-buddy or mention Imperial in regards to you. I get the feeling you have a guilty conscience DaveTheGrave

Please answer the question AND explain why you said what you said.

---

Quote from: Imperial Guardsman on July 24, 2013, 07:40:08 pm

Quote from: Powder Miner on July 24, 2013, 07:26:18 pm

Imperial Guardsman: Let's say you're scum. You're about to get lynched. However, your scumbuddy has been gaining a significant amount of attention as well as you. If you convince them he's scum, you can get him lynched and maybe survive yourself. Do you?

Yes

This is a bad play. Your goal, as town or mafia, is not to survive. It's to eliminate the other faction. Obviously survival helps but that isn't your primary goal. In that scenario you are obviously already a huge target. Bussing your buddy would just cause both of you to lose.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day One - A Cunning Plan
Post by: DaveTheGrave on July 24, 2013, 08:03:07 pm

Quote from: Nerjin on July 24, 2013, 07:55:13 pm

Quote from: DaveTheGrave on July 24, 2013, 07:43:02 pm

Quote from: Powder Miner on July 24, 2013, 07:26:18 pm

DaveTheSomber: Through an exceptionally bad play by town and clever fishing by your scumbuddy, the doctor and cop have been revealed in one day! Who do you prioritize on killing?

Well seeing as I'm not scum, I dont have much to worry about. The ideal you know who both scum are is somewhat suspicious on its own. Also I boted for imperial at random, and your idea is he's my "Scumbuddy". Your logic is at a fualt.

Eh... Not really relevant Dave. These are hypothetical questions. He didn't call you scum at all actually just said "If you are scum then...". He never indicated that he knows who both, or even one, of the scum are. He also didn't mention anybody being your scum-buddy or mention Imperial in regards to you. I get the feeling you have a guilty conscience DaveTheGrave

Please answer the question AND explain why you said what you said.

---

Quote from: Imperial Guardsman on July 24, 2013, 07:40:08 pm

Quote from: Powder Miner on July 24, 2013, 07:26:18 pm

Imperial Guardsman: Let's say you're scum. You're about to get lynched. However, your scumbuddy has been gaining a significant amount of attention as well as you. If you convince them he's scum, you can get him lynched and maybe survive yourself. Do you?

Yes

This is a bad play. Your goal, as town or mafia, is not to survive. It's to eliminate the other faction. Obviously survival helps but that isn't your primary goal. In that scenario you are obviously already a huge target. Bussing your buddy would just cause both of you to lose.

Well he reffered to me and imperial as both having scumbuddys, I wasnt sure he was being hypothetical.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day One - A Cunning Plan
Post by: Imperial Guardsman on July 24, 2013, 08:14:44 pm

Really, dave? Either you are jumping to conclusions, you have something against me, or are trying to be pitifully obvious defensive scum. Unvote Nerjin, DaveTheGrave

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day One - A Cunning Plan
Post by: DaveTheGrave on July 24, 2013, 08:16:47 pm

Actually, I was just voting randomly, seeing as there is no evidence at this point beyond speculation. But I guess I'll just keep my vote on you.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day One - A Cunning Plan
Post by: Imperial Guardsman on July 24, 2013, 08:19:13 pm

DaveTheGrave, You are scum. Who is the night one nightkill?

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day One - A Cunning Plan
Post by: DaveTheGrave on July 24, 2013, 08:20:44 pm

Quote from: Imperial Guardsman on July 24, 2013, 08:19:13 pm

DaveTheGrave, You are scum. Who is the night one nightkill?

Dont know, I'm not scum. Odds are whoever is scum is going to play the shit out of this conflict and kill you anyway, so salutations my good man.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day One - A Cunning Plan
Post by: Imperial Guardsman on July 24, 2013, 08:20:56 pm

Guys, im getting tired, going to rest...

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day One - A Cunning Plan
Post by: Nerjin on July 24, 2013, 08:50:42 pm

Alright... A few things:

---

Quote from: Imperial Guardsman on July 24, 2013, 08:14:44 pm

Really, dave? Either you are jumping to conclusions, you have something against me, or are trying to be pitifully obvious defensive scum. Unvote Nerjin, DaveTheGrave

How was he jumping at you? What you did could be considered a band-wagon since I made a bit of a thing at him and you leapt to vote with me. Not for the same reasons I'll admit but some might argue that that's what you're doing. His vote was by his own admission entirely random. Please better explain your vote on him.

---

Quote from: DaveTheGrave on July 24, 2013, 08:16:47 pm

Actually, I was just voting randomly, seeing as there is no evidence at this point beyond speculation. But I guess I'll just keep my vote on you.

Please explain why. Other-wise this is just an OMGUS. Voting for someone [or keeping an RVS vote on someone] simply because they voted you is a VERY scummy thing to do.

---

Dave and Imperial please stop this bickering. Neither of you are making arguments for your case. You are simply stating "You are scum!" "No I'm not!" which doesn't help at all.

Dave your comment about how Imp is going to be nigh-killed isn't very townie. In fact it rings suspiciously of "If you go for me you'll be sorry." which comes off as scummy. You'd likely be attacked for that in a full game.

Imperial Guardsman we don't need to be told that you're going to rest.

---

I'd like to hear from some of the other players though before I say much more.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day One - A Cunning Plan
Post by: DaveTheGrave on July 24, 2013, 09:00:44 pm

I was simply implying that a mafia would probably jump on the chance of a feud between two players. Its more or less a logic thing then a threat. For all I know imp or YOU could be the scum. Or even both? And this is some elongated plan to wither me down and stab me in the night.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day One - A Cunning Plan
Post by: Okami No Rei on July 24, 2013, 09:50:54 pm

Day 1 ends on Monday, July 29 at 8:00pm CST

Votecount

TheWetSheep (0) -
griffinpup (0) -
Griffionday (1) - Powder Miner
Powder Miner (1) - TheWetSheep
Imperial Guardsman (2) - DaveTheGrave, notquitethere
DaveTheGrave (2) - Nerjin, Imperial Guardsman
Boy (1) - griffinpup
Nerjin (0) -
notquitethere (0) -

Not Voting - Griffionday, Boy

Extend (0/4) -
Shorten (0/5) -

TheWetSheep has Requested Replacement on or before Sunday, August 11.

DaveTheGrave - Editing posts is not permitted under any circumstances.  If you need to fix a post, it is acceptable, during the game, to double-post with corrections.  First infraction is a warning, second infraction is a modkill.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day One - A Cunning Plan
Post by: griffinpup on July 24, 2013, 10:09:10 pm

Quote from: Nerjin on July 24, 2013, 06:02:08 pm

Griffpup: I've seen you around a few times... Anyway who would you most prefer to have on the scum-team with or against you?

I've seen you around a few times too... :o Anyways, I'd pick NQT against me, as I feel that I'd get a deep seated satisfaction from lynching him.  I'd prefer... one of the more experienced people as a scum partner. 

Quote from: TheWetSheep on July 24, 2013, 06:50:27 pm

Griffinpup: Is that all?

No.

Quote from: TheWetSheep on July 24, 2013, 06:50:27 pm

When does lurking become scummy?

When someone doesn't post any meaningful content for a full day without a valid excuse... And/Or When someone intentionally avoids commenting or posting on an issue to avoid being noticed.

Quote from: Powder Miner on July 24, 2013, 07:26:18 pm

griffinpup: You don't have long on the computer, but before you have to get off, you want to make a post? What sort of things do you keep out in order to have enough time to type the post out? What do you leave in?

Ooohhh...  That's a very hard question.  I prefer to be fairly detailed in my posts where applicable.  I am also in multiple conversations/arguments at the same time.  I would focus on one of the discussions I was in, while not mentioning the other until I had more time.  I would also state that I was a bit out of time and would respond to the other discussion later.

Quote from: notquitethere on July 24, 2013, 06:22:14 pm

Griffinpup, even in the RVS I find it helps to try to make your vote do some work when you use it, otherwise the other player will feel little pressure.

I don't see you as my playing superior, and therefore don't really value your advice.  Sorry.

TheWetSheep - What's YOUR definition of active lurking?
Griffionday - What manipulations do you use while playing scum?
Powder Miner - List all the major scumtells you will be searching for.
Imperial Guardsman - Why haven't you posted RVS?
DaveTheGrave - What's with you?  You still haven't answered the question, despite you being prompted by Nerjin.  Answer it.  You are being cagey and hypothesizing what scum will do excessively.  Why?
Boy - Have you read a mafia game on this forum yet?  If so, which one(s)?
Nerjin - You are squeaky clean townie.  How do you go about finding scum in a sea of noobs?
notquitethere - You are dirty filthy scum.  How do you pretend to scumhunt in a sea of noobs?

PPE:
Thanks for warning him about the editing.  I wasn't looking forward to writing up that part of my post.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day One - A Cunning Plan
Post by: TheWetSheep on July 24, 2013, 11:13:37 pm

DavetheGrave: You missed my question, probably because I shortened your name:

Quote from: TheWetSheep on July 24, 2013, 06:50:27 pm

Dave: How do you plan to find scum?

Also, why would scum kill IG because you're arguing with him? And why do you have a hard time answering hypotheticals?

Griffinpup:

Quote

Quote

Griffinpup: Is that all?

No.

What were you trying to achieve with your first post?

Quote

TheWetSheep - What's YOUR definition of active lurking?

Same as yours probably: not contributing to beneficial game discussion but trying to appear as if you are. But my question to you was about normal lurking, as in, not posting at all or very little.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day One - A Cunning Plan
Post by: griffinpup on July 24, 2013, 11:24:07 pm

Quote from: TheWetSheep on July 24, 2013, 11:13:37 pm

What were you trying to achieve with your first post?

Be the first person to post since the game started.

Quote

Quote

TheWetSheep - What's YOUR definition of active lurking?

Same as yours probably: not contributing to beneficial game discussion but trying to appear as if you are. But my question to you was about normal lurking, as in, not posting at all or very little.

And that was what my answer was about.  I limited it to lurking specifically.  I was asking what the difference between the two are in my question.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day One - A Cunning Plan
Post by: Griffionday on July 25, 2013, 12:54:08 am

Nerjin:

Quote from: Nerjin on July 24, 2013, 06:02:08 pm

GriffDay: If you were scum would you pursue an easy lynch or would you try to push a different conclusion?

Definitely push a different conclusion.  The benefits are endless:

It's so much more fun.
You will rarely be called out for bandwagoning.
It shows that you are "thinking" about the game.
You are adding to the game: both white noise and possibly suspicions of other people.
It means you can always pull off your vote later if it's more useful to be elsewhere as you are a FREE SPIRIT WHO CANNOT BE TAMED.

Really, pushing for an easy lynch will just cause you to slip out of the game, and jepordize yourself for lurking.

When would you go for an easy lynch over a more difficult one?

---

Sheep:

Quote from: TheWetSheep on July 24, 2013, 06:50:27 pm

Griffionday: If you were scum at 3p LyLo and someone claimed cop but had no information on you or the third person, would you counter-claim?

Well, I think it depends on what I was planning to do.  If I wanted to push them onto to third player, then I might accept that without much comment.  On the other hand, this would be a good opportunity to attack if he were the person I wanted to try to lynch.

---

IG:

Quote from: Imperial Guardsman on July 24, 2013, 06:52:33 pm

Voting puts more pressure on people then questions. Pressure is good. When they crack, the information you get is quite useful.

What do you mean by "when they crack"? 

---

Powder Miner:

Quote from: Powder Miner on July 24, 2013, 07:26:18 pm

Griffionday: You're cop, and you claim such. However, the man you claim is scum counterclaims as a cop, providing someone totally different as an investigation. How do you prove yourself?

Hopefully I've played more town than the scum by that point, and am able to point out where he's dropped tells in the past.  Whether or not that is true, I would still be able to start focusing on him and his play to see if I can start bringing other people onto my case.

---

griffinpup:

Quote from: griffinpup on July 24, 2013, 10:09:10 pm

Griffionday - What manipulations do you use while playing scum?

The only one worth anything: playing as town.

What manipulations do you plan to use?

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day One - A Cunning Plan
Post by: notquitethere on July 25, 2013, 01:02:10 am

TWS

Quote from: TheWetSheep on July 24, 2013, 06:50:27 pm

NQT: Is this question helpful?

Only if my answer gives you an idea about my character. Did it?

Griffpup

Quote from: griffinpup on July 24, 2013, 10:09:10 pm

I don't see you as my playing superior, and therefore don't really value your advice. Sorry.

That's okay, I don't claim to be superior. I've just played quite a few games and the received wisdom is that you should put some pressure with your votes. Another classic piece of advice is to never let your opinion of a player from one game cloud your judgement of them in the next.

Quote from: griffinpup on July 24, 2013, 10:09:10 pm

notquitethere - You are dirty filthy scum. How do you pretend to scumhunt in a sea of noobs?

I thought you didn't want my advice  ;D. Jokes aside, I'd probably let the new players mislynch each other while offering a case on the most plausibly scummiest. Oh, and I'd probably manufacture bogus conflicts with my scumbuddy so we can distance ourselves from each other.

How important do you think inter-game meta is?

Powder Miner

Quote from: Powder Miner on July 24, 2013, 07:26:18 pm

Notquitethere: How much do you think you can lie about the game before people get suspicious?

I assume you mean 'lie' in the sense of lie low. It depends on the players but generally by LYLO, accusations of lying low will be brought up. If you meant 'lie' as in deceive, then it doesn't take long at all for an astute player to spot a blatant falsehood, but it depends how much they're paying attention.

Dave
If you're responding to just one thing someone's said, it helps to cut their quote down a bit. This helps minimise the walls of quoted text on the screen.

Quote from: DaveTheGrave on July 24, 2013, 09:00:44 pm

I was simply implying that a mafia would probably jump on the chance of a feud between two players. Its more or less a logic thing then a threat. For all I know imp or YOU could be the scum. Or even both? And this is some elongated plan to wither me down and stab me in the night.

Thing is, scum also have an incentive to act like town players. Try not to be over-paranoid. What would you do as scum if you saw two less experienced town players at each other's throats?

Griffionday
For what sort of thing is it reasonable to lynch a player on day one?

Nerjin, the 'voice of reason' nature of being an IC makes an possible mask for a spy bully scum player to hide behind. If you are town, in what way will you be alert to this possibilty with me?

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day One - A Cunning Plan
Post by: Griffionday on July 25, 2013, 02:49:02 am

Quote from: notquitethere on July 25, 2013, 01:02:10 am

Griffionday
For what sort of thing is it reasonable to lynch a player on day one?

Seeming the most scummy.

If you want more specific than that we're getting into the realm of policy lynches (namely that there is a list of things that I consider reasonable justification for a lynch).  I try not to have a policy about most cases, as it ties you up as town, and if you're wrong then you leave an opening for scum to attack.  That being said, there are cases where it'd be appropriate.  For example: any form of "I've got to level with you, I'm scum and want to win, what sort of deal can we make?" should be summarily followed by a lynch, possibly with shortening the day as well.

What were you going for with that question?

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day One - A Cunning Plan
Post by: notquitethere on July 25, 2013, 03:26:07 am

Quote from: Griffionday on July 25, 2013, 02:49:02 am

What were you going for with that question?

I wanted to know your criterion for a day 1 lynch-- this isn't a purely hypothetical question as I'll be looking at how you (and everyone else) votes as the day goes on. A good RVS question is posed as a trap. I'm glad you don't condone policy lynches (other than lynching self-proclaimed scum, which is reasonable). 'Seeming the most scummy' is a bit vague. Do you want to be more specific?

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day One - A Cunning Plan
Post by: DaveTheGrave on July 25, 2013, 06:18:13 am

Quote from: griffinpup on July 24, 2013, 10:09:10 pm

DaveTheGrave - What's with you?  You still haven't answered the question, despite you being prompted by Nerjin.  Answer it.  You are being cagey and hypothesizing what scum will do. Why?

Because I didnt see the question. But to answer it, if the ending of your statement is teh question. Because i dont want to wrongfully be lynched in the start of the game.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day One - A Cunning Plan
Post by: Imperial Guardsman on July 25, 2013, 07:34:08 am

Quote from: griffinpup on July 24, 2013, 10:09:10 pm

Imperial Guardsman - Why haven't you posted RVS?

I really thought I was posting RVS.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day One - A Cunning Plan
Post by: Imperial Guardsman on July 25, 2013, 07:37:39 am

Quote from: DaveTheGrave on July 25, 2013, 06:18:13 am

Because I didnt see the question. But to answer it, if the ending of your statement is teh question. Because i dont want to wrongfully be lynched in the start of the game.

Claiming town?

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day One - A Cunning Plan
Post by: notquitethere on July 25, 2013, 08:19:12 am

Griffinpup

Quote from: griffinpup on July 24, 2013, 10:09:10 pm

Imperial Guardsman - Why haven't you posted RVS?

(I should point out that IG asked RVS-style questions to Nerjin and Dave.)

Imperial Guardman

Quote from: Imperial Guardsman on July 25, 2013, 07:37:39 am

Quote from: DaveTheGrave on July 25, 2013, 06:18:13 am

Because I didnt see the question. But to answer it, if the ending of your statement is teh question. Because i dont want to wrongfully be lynched in the start of the game.

Claiming town?

This is a null-tell. All players, including scum, implicitly claim to be town in a normal mafia game.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day One - A Cunning Plan
Post by: DaveTheGrave on July 25, 2013, 09:03:33 am

Quote from: Imperial Guardsman on July 25, 2013, 07:37:39 am

Quote from: DaveTheGrave on July 25, 2013, 06:18:13 am

Because I didnt see the question. But to answer it, if the ending of your statement is teh question. Because i dont want to wrongfully be lynched in the start of the game.

Claiming town?

Are you implying your not?

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day One - A Cunning Plan
Post by: Imperial Guardsman on July 25, 2013, 09:13:09 am

Quote from: DaveTheGrave on July 25, 2013, 09:03:33 am

Are you implying your not?

I dont see how that would imply im not town in any way.
Dave. You are the jailkeeper. Who do you protect/roleblock first night?

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day One - A Cunning Plan
Post by: Imperial Guardsman on July 25, 2013, 09:14:42 am

Quote from: Griffionday on July 25, 2013, 12:54:08 am

IG:

Quote from: Imperial Guardsman on July 24, 2013, 06:52:33 pm

Voting puts more pressure on people then questions. Pressure is good. When they crack, the information you get is quite useful.

What do you mean by "when they crack"? 

---

When they give up due to pressure and claim scum or town.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day One - A Cunning Plan
Post by: Okami No Rei on July 25, 2013, 12:55:49 pm

Day 1 ends on Monday, July 29 at 8:00pm CST

Votecount

TheWetSheep (0) -
griffinpup (1) - Griffionday
Griffionday (1) - Powder Miner
Powder Miner (1) - TheWetSheep
Imperial Guardsman (1) - DaveTheGrave
DaveTheGrave (2) - Nerjin, Imperial Guardsman
Boy (1) - griffinpup
Nerjin (1) -notquitethere
notquitethere (0) -

Not Voting - Boy

Extend (0/4) -
Shorten (0/5) -

TheWetSheep has Requested Replacement on or before Sunday, August 11.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day One - A Cunning Plan
Post by: Nerjin on July 25, 2013, 01:50:18 pm

Dave, it appears that you are playing an emotionally reactive game. I suggest taking a bit of a break and coming back later. And don't worry too much about getting lynched Day 1 alright? It happens. Sometimes [A lot of times] someone will say something totally innocent but people will ride on it HARD. So if you DO get lynched don't take it personally.

Imperial Guardsman you need to think your posts out a bit more. What's there is decent but you keep multi-posting for some reason and that makes it seem like you just type out whatever comes to mind as it comes. If you have multiple things to say you can put them in the same post.

---

Dave

Quote from: DaveTheGrave on July 24, 2013, 09:00:44 pm

I was simply implying that a mafia would probably jump on the chance of a feud between two players. Its more or less a logic thing then a threat. For all I know imp or YOU could be the scum. Or even both? And this is some elongated plan to wither me down and stab me in the night.

Wild speculation like this isn't helpful. Honestly myself or NQT are more likely targets. Scum would probably leave Imperial Guardsman alive since he was arguing with you so much to leave a bit of a red herring. That sets up a bit of WIFOM as to whether he is scum or not. If they out-right killed him we'd know he isn't.

---

NQT

Quote from: notquitethere on July 25, 2013, 01:02:10 am

Nerjin, the 'voice of reason' nature of being an IC makes an possible mask for a spy bully scum player to hide behind. If you are town, in what way will you be alert to this possibilty with me?

I won't. The IC voice is to be used ONLY as a teaching tool. If you abuse it here I shall rally against you in every single game you are a part of. You seem like a nice guy. You better not sabotage all of these new guys' first game of mafia by being a total ass. Other than out-right abuse I plan to just look at you like I normally do. Pointing out scummy behavior and the like.

---

GriffPup

Quote from: griffinpup on July 24, 2013, 10:09:10 pm

Nerjin - You are squeaky clean townie.  How do you go about finding scum in a sea of noobs?

Well as I said my first goal is to teach all of you. Plus most of you aren't "noobs" as you put it. Only Dave and Boy are. So I plan to basically look for things that are scummy. If I give you guys soft-balls you won't learn very well. Sure it might be a noob-tell but you need to learn. I do plan to explain WHY I'm doing what I'm doing instead of just doing it like I would in a regular game but... Well you folks are here to learn mafia not be coddled. I believe in a bit of a sink-or-swim method of teaching. I won't let you drown but if you need a bit of negative reinforcement than I shall do what I must.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day One - A Cunning Plan
Post by: TheWetSheep on July 25, 2013, 02:44:01 pm

Dave: Answer me. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=127764.msg4433007#msg4433007)

Griffinpup: But why was your only accompaniment to your random vote a non-applicable acronym?

NQT:

Quote from: notquitethere on July 25, 2013, 01:02:10 am

TWS

Quote from: TheWetSheep on July 24, 2013, 06:50:27 pm

NQT: Is this question helpful?

Only if my answer gives you an idea about my character. Did it?

Yes, but not in a way that will help me determine if you are scum or town. That makes your answer wrong, I guess.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day One - A Cunning Plan
Post by: Imperial Guardsman on July 25, 2013, 02:57:31 pm

Dave is simply taking questions emotionally on purpose, doesn't understand they are scenarios, or is actually taking them emotially.
The former is what i think is the most likely.
He is dodging and weaseling out of questions.

OBVSCUM

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day One - A Cunning Plan
Post by: DaveTheGrave on July 25, 2013, 03:48:51 pm

Quote from: TheWetSheep on July 25, 2013, 02:44:01 pm

Dave: Answer me. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=127764.msg4433007#msg4433007)

Griffinpup: But why was your only accompaniment to your random vote a non-applicable acronym?

NQT:

Quote from: notquitethere on July 25, 2013, 01:02:10 am

TWS

Quote from: TheWetSheep on July 24, 2013, 06:50:27 pm

NQT: Is this question helpful?

Only if my answer gives you an idea about my character. Did it?

Yes, but not in a way that will help me determine if you are scum or town. That makes your answer wrong, I guess.

I wasn't voting for him because he voted for me. I voted for him before he voted me. I was using the "keeping the vote on him" as pressure to get him to invite me.

Quote from: Imperial Guardsman on July 25, 2013, 02:57:31 pm

Dave is simply taking questions emotionally on purpose, doesn't understand they are scenarios, or is actually taking them emotially.
The former is what i think is the most likely.
He is dodging and weaseling out of questions.

OBVSCUM

And in reply to you, I haven't been dodging questions, I either skim over them, or are too lazy to answer them.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day One - A Cunning Plan
Post by: griffinpup on July 25, 2013, 04:15:08 pm

Quote from: DaveTheGrave on July 25, 2013, 03:48:51 pm

Quote from: TheWetSheep on July 25, 2013, 02:44:01 pm

1. I wasn't voting for him because he voted for me. I voted for him before he voted me. I was using the "keeping the vote on him" as pressure to get him to invite me.

Quote from: Imperial Guardsman on July 25, 2013, 02:57:31 pm

Dave is simply taking questions emotionally on purpose, doesn't understand they are scenarios, or is actually taking them emotially.
The former is what i think is the most likely.
He is dodging and weaseling out of questions.

OBVSCUM

2. And in reply to you, I haven't been dodging questions, I either skim over them, or are too lazy to answer them.

1. I assume you meant unvote.  This is probably the single scummiest reason to keep your vote on someone...  It is exactly an OMGUS vote.  The only reason your vote is still on him is that he has voted you.  Therefore, it's subject to the same reasoning on why it's scummy as an OMGUS vote.  You just happened to vote first in this particular instance.

2. I fail to see the difference.  Avoiding answering questions, regardless of the reason, is dodging questions.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day One - A Cunning Plan
Post by: Imperial Guardsman on July 25, 2013, 04:19:59 pm

Dave is either a VI or a newbie who got scum first game.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day One - A Cunning Plan
Post by: griffinpup on July 25, 2013, 04:24:13 pm

VI?

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day One - A Cunning Plan
Post by: DaveTheGrave on July 25, 2013, 04:38:09 pm

Quote from: griffinpup on July 25, 2013, 04:15:08 pm

Quote from: DaveTheGrave on July 25, 2013, 03:48:51 pm

Quote from: TheWetSheep on July 25, 2013, 02:44:01 pm

1. I wasn't voting for him because he voted for me. I voted for him before he voted me. I was using the "keeping the vote on him" as pressure to get him to invite me.

Quote from: Imperial Guardsman on July 25, 2013, 02:57:31 pm

Dave is simply taking questions emotionally on purpose, doesn't understand they are scenarios, or is actually taking them emotially.
The former is what i think is the most likely.
He is dodging and weaseling out of questions.

OBVSCUM

2. And in reply to you, I haven't been dodging questions, I either skim over them, or are too lazy to answer them.

1. I assume you meant unvote.  This is probably the single scummiest reason to keep your vote on someone...  It is exactly an OMGUS vote.  The only reason your vote is still on him is that he has voted you.  Therefore, it's subject to the same reasoning on why it's scummy as an OMGUS vote.  You just happened to vote first in this particular instance.

2. I fail to see the difference.  Avoiding answering questions, regardless of the reason, is dodging questions.

I had no reason to change my vote, soI left it on him. I had no reason to change it.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day One - A Cunning Plan
Post by: Powder Miner on July 25, 2013, 05:02:23 pm

@Griffinpup (botched the quote and don't want to bother to bring it back up):
Ah, that's going to take quite the answer. Bandwagoning, passivity and active lurking, freaking out when pressured or when someone else is pressured, WIFOM, WIFOM, mother****ing WIFOM, question dodging, OMGUS, burden of proof.

Also, unvote Griffionday, that's a good answer.

Dave, you only keep a vote if you have reason to change it. I don't see what repeating that you didn't have a reason to change your vote twice in the same post is supposed to help, especially when it contradicts what you just said, which was that you were trying to get him to unvote you by keeping your vote on him as pressure. Make your mind up about your cover story, please? Contradicting's bad.

Griffinpup, I looked it up, VI stands for Village Idiot, and means someone who keeps screwing up by saying things without understanding their repercussions, or, in this case a severe noob, which I'm tempted to believe Dave might be simply because of his utter lack of tact.

Nerjin, it looks a little bit to me like you're active lurking. Sure you went after Dave when he dropped an incredibly strong scumtell, but after that, you've only asked him one thing that even looks like a question- indeed, while you've been doing your job as an IC and answering all the questions that have been thrown at you, you haven't really been attacking anyone- you haven't been scumhunting, not even the guy you put your vote on. What do you have to say in defense?

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day One - A Cunning Plan
Post by: Imperial Guardsman on July 25, 2013, 05:02:32 pm

Quote from: griffinpup on July 25, 2013, 04:24:13 pm

VI?

Village Idiot, a person who says or does the wrong things but doesnt understand the consequences.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day One - A Cunning Plan
Post by: DaveTheGrave on July 25, 2013, 05:08:35 pm

Quote from: Powder Miner on July 25, 2013, 05:02:23 pm

Dave, you only keep a vote if you have reason to change it. I don't see what repeating that you didn't have a reason to change your vote twice in the same post is supposed to help, especially when it contradicts what you just said, which was that you were trying to get him to unvote you by keeping your vote on him as pressure. Make your mind up about your cover story, please? Contradicting's bad.

Why would you change a vote if you had no reason to change it. Thats illogical.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day One - A Cunning Plan
Post by: griffinpup on July 25, 2013, 05:19:26 pm

Dave:
Do you think Imperial Guardsmen is scum?
Why did you offer multiple and contradicting reasons for leaving your vote on IG? (Imperial Guardsmen)

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day One - A Cunning Plan
Post by: Powder Miner on July 25, 2013, 05:19:56 pm

If you're not finding new people to go after, that's a bad thing. You shouldn't only be focusing on voting IG into the ground, Dave (that's called tunneling, by the way), instead you should be gathering data on multiple people. That's why you should change it- ignoring everyone else in favor of one man can often be seen as scummy.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day One - A Cunning Plan
Post by: griffinpup on July 25, 2013, 05:26:39 pm

Quote from: Powder Miner on July 25, 2013, 05:19:56 pm

If you're not finding new people to go after, that's a bad thing. You shouldn't only be focusing on voting IG into the ground, Dave (that's called tunneling, by the way), instead you should be gathering data on multiple people. That's why you should change it- ignoring everyone else in favor of one man can often be seen as scummy.

I politely disagree.  You totally should go after multiple people at a time, but I don't see that as a reason to change your vote.  If you think one person is the mafia, you BETTER be voting him over everyone else.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day One - A Cunning Plan
Post by: DaveTheGrave on July 25, 2013, 05:59:22 pm

Quote from: griffinpup on July 25, 2013, 05:26:39 pm

Quote from: Powder Miner on July 25, 2013, 05:19:56 pm

If you're not finding new people to go after, that's a bad thing. You shouldn't only be focusing on voting IG into the ground, Dave (that's called tunneling, by the way), instead you should be gathering data on multiple people. That's why you should change it- ignoring everyone else in favor of one man can often be seen as scummy.

I politely disagree.  You totally should go after multiple people at a time, but I don't see that as a reason to change your vote.  If you think one person is the mafia, you BETTER be voting him over everyone else.

^

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day One - A Cunning Plan
Post by: griffinpup on July 25, 2013, 06:19:22 pm

Dave:
ANSWER MY QUESTIONS

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day One - A Cunning Plan
Post by: griffinpup on July 25, 2013, 06:24:11 pm

Quote from: TheWetSheep on July 25, 2013, 02:44:01 pm

Griffinpup: But why was your only accompaniment to your random vote a non-applicable acronym?

I would argue that it is applicable.  I'm under the impression that Boy sucks.  This is evident by his lurking and failure to post meaningful content.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day One - A Cunning Plan
Post by: Imperial Guardsman on July 25, 2013, 06:31:07 pm

Boy actually posted?

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day One - A Cunning Plan
Post by: DaveTheGrave on July 25, 2013, 06:32:25 pm

Quote from: griffinpup on July 25, 2013, 05:19:26 pm

Dave:
Do you think Imperial Guardsmen is scum?
Why did you offer multiple and contradicting reasons for leaving your vote on IG? (Imperial Guardsmen)

I think hes probably scum, but unless someone else votes for him I dont think its going to matter.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day One - A Cunning Plan
Post by: griffinpup on July 25, 2013, 06:40:52 pm

DaveTheGrave:
Answer ALL my questions.
Also, your goal is to CONVINCE people that who you think is scummy is scum, so that they can be lynched.  Convince me.

Quote from: Imperial Guardsman on July 25, 2013, 06:31:07 pm

Boy actually posted?

No, he didn't.  That's why it's funny.  ;)

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day One - A Cunning Plan
Post by: Imperial Guardsman on July 25, 2013, 07:09:02 pm

Quote from: DaveTheGrave on July 25, 2013, 06:32:25 pm

I think hes probably

I THINK THAT HE MAY MAYBE POSSIBLY SORTA A BIT PERHAPS UNCERTAINLY SCUM AHUEHUE.
Sorry, thats not going to work. Elaborate, perhaps?

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day One - A Cunning Plan
Post by: Powder Miner on July 25, 2013, 07:25:05 pm

Quote from: griffinpup on July 25, 2013, 05:26:39 pm

Quote from: Powder Miner on July 25, 2013, 05:19:56 pm

If you're not finding new people to go after, that's a bad thing. You shouldn't only be focusing on voting IG into the ground, Dave (that's called tunneling, by the way), instead you should be gathering data on multiple people. That's why you should change it- ignoring everyone else in favor of one man can often be seen as scummy.

I politely disagree.  You totally should go after multiple people at a time, but I don't see that as a reason to change your vote.  If you think one person is the mafia, you BETTER be voting him over everyone else.

That's not what I meant. If Dave truly only has his vote on IG because there's "no reason to change", that means he's not actually finding anything to do. You shouldn't ever not be voting/pointlessly leave a vote somewhere due to having nothing to do

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day One - A Cunning Plan
Post by: TheWetSheep on July 25, 2013, 07:29:11 pm

Unvote Powder Miner. You seem fine.

Griffinpup:

Quote from: griffinpup on July 25, 2013, 06:24:11 pm

Quote from: TheWetSheep on July 25, 2013, 02:44:01 pm

Griffinpup: But why was your only accompaniment to your random vote a non-applicable acronym?

I would argue that it is applicable.  I'm under the impression that Boy sucks.  This is evident by his lurking and failure to post meaningful content.

Uh... what? That was the first post of the game. Nobody else had posted by that time. And why use OMGUS literally, instead of what it's usually used for?

Dave: You missed the RVS question in the post I linked. Again.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day One - A Cunning Plan
Post by: Imperial Guardsman on July 25, 2013, 07:36:49 pm

Heres to hoping the town has a cop.

[glow=blue[shadow=green[size=14DaveTheGrave : You are the cop. It is near game end. Do you claim cop and give all your results, resulting in a certain lynch from the mafia if the JK isnt alive, or do you wait until you are certain you can do this to safely end the bullysaboteur dwarf threat?pt][/size],left][/shadow],2,300][/glow][/u][/i][/b]

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day One - A Cunning Plan
Post by: DaveTheGrave on July 25, 2013, 07:50:40 pm

Quote from: Imperial Guardsman on July 25, 2013, 07:36:49 pm

Heres to hoping the town has a cop.

[glow=blue[shadow=green[size=14DaveTheGrave : You are the cop. It is near game end. Do you claim cop and give all your results, resulting in a certain lynch from the mafia if the JK isnt alive, or do you wait until you are certain you can do this to safely end the bullysaboteur dwarf threat?pt][/size],left][/shadow],2,300][/glow][/u][/i][/b]

I dont even know what this says.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day One - A Cunning Plan
Post by: Imperial Guardsman on July 25, 2013, 07:54:46 pm

First, click, hold, put cursor over all the ATTENTION GRABBING pink. I made it like that so you couldnt weasel out by saying I DINUT NOTISH EET.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day One - A Cunning Plan
Post by: Okami No Rei on July 25, 2013, 08:14:34 pm

Day 1 ends on Monday, July 29 at 8:00pm CST

Votecount

TheWetSheep (0) -
griffinpup (2) - Griffionday, TheWetSheep
Griffionday (0) -
Powder Miner (0) -
Imperial Guardsman (1) - DaveTheGrave
DaveTheGrave (3) - Nerjin, Imperial Guardsman, griffinpup
Boy (0) -
Nerjin (2) -notquitethere, Powder Miner
notquitethere (0) -

Not Voting - Boy

Extend (0/4) -
Shorten (0/5) -

TheWetSheep has Requested Replacement on or before Sunday, August 11.

Boy has been prodded.  His spot is now up for Replacement.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day One - A Cunning Plan - Replacement Needed
Post by: Powder Miner on July 25, 2013, 08:14:57 pm

Impact in italics is nearly illegible anyway.
Translation:
DaveTheGrave : You are the cop. It is near game end. Do you claim cop and give all your results, resulting in a certain lynch from the mafia if the JK isnt alive, or do you wait until you are certain you can do this to safely end the bullysaboteur dwarf threat?

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day One - A Cunning Plan - Replacement Needed
Post by: DaveTheGrave on July 25, 2013, 08:31:02 pm

Quote from: Powder Miner on July 25, 2013, 08:14:57 pm

Impact in italics is nearly illegible anyway.
Translation:
DaveTheGrave : You are the cop. It is near game end. Do you claim cop and give all your results, resulting in a certain lynch from the mafia if the JK isnt alive, or do you wait until you are certain you can do this to safely end the bullysaboteur dwarf threat?

Obviously you'd d it safely.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day One - A Cunning Plan - Replacement Needed
Post by: DaveTheGrave on July 25, 2013, 08:32:08 pm

I'd also like to: Unvote Imperial, Vote Griffin

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day One - A Cunning Plan - Replacement Needed
Post by: Imperial Guardsman on July 25, 2013, 08:36:08 pm

Quote from: DaveTheGrave on July 25, 2013, 08:32:08 pm

I'd also like to: Unvote Imperial, Vote Griffin

Y u do dis

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day One - A Cunning Plan
Post by: griffinpup on July 25, 2013, 08:36:56 pm

Quote from: TheWetSheep on July 25, 2013, 07:29:11 pm

Griffinpup:

Quote from: griffinpup on July 25, 2013, 06:24:11 pm

Quote from: TheWetSheep on July 25, 2013, 02:44:01 pm

Griffinpup: But why was your only accompaniment to your random vote a non-applicable acronym?

I would argue that it is applicable.  I'm under the impression that Boy sucks.  This is evident by his lurking and failure to post meaningful content.

Uh... what? That was the first post of the game. Nobody else had posted by that time. And why use OMGUS literally, instead of what it's usually used for?

Why not?  I'm not sure what you're looking for with this conversation.  I wanted to be the first one to post.  I didn't have time to do a full set of RVS, but I hate when people are like "first post!"  so I decided to throw out my vote on one of the new people.  It was purely a reaction-test.  Think of it as seeing how the new kid reacts to being called scum for fallacious reasoning.  It was just luck that the person I 'omgused' actually did suck.

GriffDay:
Sorry for not quoting, but I'm on my tablet right now, and quoting on a tablet is atrocious. 
Hypothetically  speaking, if I were scum, I wouldn't play anything specifically different then as town.  My lynch targets would just be different.  I'be not played scum yet in any mafia game on this forum yet, so I don't really know how my play would change.

PPE:
Dave:
And why did you vote me?
Also, why didn't you answer my question?

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day One - A Cunning Plan - Replacement Needed
Post by: DaveTheGrave on July 25, 2013, 08:43:37 pm

Quote from: Imperial Guardsman on July 25, 2013, 08:36:08 pm

Quote from: DaveTheGrave on July 25, 2013, 08:32:08 pm

I'd also like to: Unvote Imperial, Vote Griffin

Y u do dis

Why are you concerned.

Quote from: griffinpup on July 25, 2013, 08:36:56 pm

PPE:
Dave:
And why did you vote me?
Also, why didn't you answer my question?

I lost suspicion for one, and gained one for another.

I didnt se eyour question, allow me to sift backwards through the thread.

Quote from: griffinpup on July 25, 2013, 05:19:26 pm

Dave:
Do you think Imperial Guardsmen is scum?
Why did you offer multiple and contradicting reasons for leaving your vote on IG? (Imperial Guardsmen)

I did, and still have suspicion. I did not, in fact, offer contradicting reasons. Provide evidence of this and I will elaborate.

 

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day One - A Cunning Plan - Replacement Needed
Post by: griffinpup on July 25, 2013, 10:50:24 pm

Dave:
You have stated that you found IG scummy, so you left your vote on him.  You also said that you left your vote on him as incentive to remove his.  Which is it?

Quote from: DaveTheGrave on July 25, 2013, 08:43:37 pm

I lost suspicion for one, and gained one for another.
- snip
I did, and still have suspicion.

In your latest post you offer a contradiction.  These are both about IG, and you say that you have lost any and all suspicion for him in your first statement.  You then say that you still have suspicion.  Which is it, and why the contradiction?
Why am I suddenly so suspicious? Is it because I voted you?

ICs:
I do need your guys' help on this one.  How do I handle someone so... Illogical that I can't even understand or justify any of their questions taken?
IG:
When I wrote your RSV question, this is what I meant.
Why didn't you ask RVS questions to everyone?

Powder Miner:

Quote from: Powder Miner on July 25, 2013, 07:25:05 pm

Quote from: griffinpup on July 25, 2013, 05:26:39 pm

Quote from: Powder Miner on July 25, 2013, 05:19:56 pm

If you're not finding new people to go after, that's a bad thing. You shouldn't only be focusing on voting IG into the ground, Dave (that's called tunneling, by the way), instead you should be gathering data on multiple people. That's why you should change it- ignoring everyone else in favor of one man can often be seen as scummy.

I politely disagree.  You totally should go after multiple people at a time, but I don't see that as a reason to change your vote.  If you think one person is the mafia, you BETTER be voting him over everyone else.

That's not what I meant. If Dave truly only has his vote on IG because there's "no reason to change", that means he's not actually finding anything to do. You shouldn't ever not be voting/pointlessly leave a vote somewhere due to having nothing to do

OK. That makes more sense.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day One - A Cunning Plan - Replacement Needed
Post by: Powder Miner on July 25, 2013, 10:54:12 pm

H-h-holy JESUS. That was the most OBVIOUS BANDWAGON. Let me explain what a bandwagon is to you. It's where somebody votes somebody who people are ganging up on in order to get them lynched, or in your case, trying to tie the vote. YOU ARE DOING THAT. You provided literally no reasoning whatsoever for that vote! Not even a trivial sentence! You said nothing about how you found him suspicious, leading me to believe you don't find him suspicious at all! You're just scum trying to worm your way out of a death by tying the vote! That's not happening. ...And you still dodged his question
Nerjin, I still want an answer out of you, but...
That was unbelievably scummy. Good Lord. Unvote, DavetheGrave.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day One - A Cunning Plan - Replacement Needed
Post by: Nerjin on July 25, 2013, 11:52:21 pm

DaveTheGrave

Quote from: DaveTheGrave on July 25, 2013, 08:31:02 pm

Quote from: Powder Miner on July 25, 2013, 08:14:57 pm

Impact in italics is nearly illegible anyway.
Translation:
DaveTheGrave : You are the cop. It is near game end. Do you claim cop and give all your results, resulting in a certain lynch from the mafia if the JK isnt alive, or do you wait until you are certain you can do this to safely end the bullysaboteur dwarf threat?

Obviously you'd d it safely.

Please elaborate Mr. Dave. That doesn't really make sense.

Quote from: DaveTheGrave on July 25, 2013, 08:43:37 pm

Quote from: Imperial Guardsman on July 25, 2013, 08:36:08 pm

Quote from: DaveTheGrave on July 25, 2013, 08:32:08 pm

I'd also like to: Unvote Imperial, Vote Griffin

Y u do dis

Why are you concerned.

Alright this is a HUGE thing. You HAVE to state your reasoning. No matter what. Why do you think Griffin is scum? What post tipped you off? Are you just trying to save yourself here? If you are scum I highly suggest you talk to the Scum-IC. If not please state your reasoning for your votes.

---

Quote from: griffinpup on July 25, 2013, 10:50:24 pm

ICs:
I do need your guys' help on this one.  How do I handle someone so... Illogical that I can't even understand or justify any of their questions taken?

Press, ask for clarification, and then vote for them if they simply refuse to be helpful. Not helping town is scummy. However that's MY opinion and not the opinion of the Bay12 Mafia Collective. I'd wait for NQT's thoughts on the subject before you act. The reason I feel this way is that if someone isn't being helpful then they'll be targeted sooner or later by town so may as well get rid of them early on so that there isn't a big snaffu regarding them.

---

On Band-Wagoning to Save Yourself as Town

Do not do this. Under any circumstances. Even if it saves you for one day it'll get you killed the next. Imagine this scenario for better clarification:

A, B, C, D, E, F, and G are playing Mafia. A has 3 votes, G has 2 votes, and A hasn't voted yet. A votes G at the  last minute and no one is lynched.

That night C dies. A, B, D, E, F, and G all come back. Obviously G screwed town over so he could get one more kill off right? So EVERYONE targets G. Problem is that G flipped town when he was lynched. So he simply delayed his death and gave the scum a day-game of relative ease.

Always remember that your personal survival isn't an issue for most roles. If you are pure town or even most power roles you can afford to die. Even an early game mislynch is preferable to a no-lynch as it gives out information.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day One - A Cunning Plan - Replacement Needed
Post by: Nerjin on July 25, 2013, 11:56:50 pm

Quote from: Powder Miner on July 25, 2013, 10:54:12 pm

Nerjin, I still want an answer out of you, but...

Well I feel like a bit of a jerk now for getting on Imperial about this... Uh what question did you ask me?

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day One - A Cunning Plan
Post by: Powder Miner on July 26, 2013, 12:02:22 am

Quote from: Powder Miner on July 25, 2013, 05:02:23 pm

Nerjin, it looks a little bit to me like you're active lurking. Sure you went after Dave when he dropped an incredibly strong scumtell, but after that, you've only asked him one thing that even looks like a question- indeed, while you've been doing your job as an IC and answering all the questions that have been thrown at you, you haven't really been attacking anyone- you haven't been scumhunting, not even the guy you put your vote on. What do you have to say in defense?

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day One - A Cunning Plan - Replacement Needed
Post by: Powder Miner on July 26, 2013, 12:05:07 am

Admittedly, the most recent post of yours does somewhat weaken that, but I still want that responded to.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day One - A Cunning Plan
Post by: Nerjin on July 26, 2013, 12:07:41 am

Quote from: Powder Miner on July 26, 2013, 12:02:22 am

Quote from: Powder Miner on July 25, 2013, 05:02:23 pm

Nerjin, it looks a little bit to me like you're active lurking. Sure you went after Dave when he dropped an incredibly strong scumtell, but after that, you've only asked him one thing that even looks like a question- indeed, while you've been doing your job as an IC and answering all the questions that have been thrown at you, you haven't really been attacking anyone- you haven't been scumhunting, not even the guy you put your vote on. What do you have to say in defense?

I have no idea how I missed that... WELL the simple answer is that I'm trying to be helpful. Like I've said: Learning here is the MOST important thing. Sure winning is fun but my job is to guide you fellows and ladies on how to play. After I'm sure you're all settled into what mafia really is at the core THEN I'll try to teach more through example. Until then I won't be "attacking" anyone. If you want a baptism by fire you'll have to look somewhere else I'm afraid.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day One - A Cunning Plan - Replacement Needed
Post by: Powder Miner on July 26, 2013, 12:12:58 am

Eheh, that seems alright enough, and what I figured the answer might be anyway. de-FoS Nerjin because it means so much to do so yeah
I'm tired, going to get some sleep.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day One - A Cunning Plan - Replacement Needed
Post by: Griffionday on July 26, 2013, 03:25:33 am

Imperial Guardsman:

Quote from: Imperial Guardsman on July 25, 2013, 07:36:49 pm

Heres to hoping the town has a cop.

Why

---

NQT

Quote from: notquitethere on July 25, 2013, 03:26:07 am

I wanted to know your criterion for a day 1 lynch-- this isn't a purely hypothetical question as I'll be looking at how you (and everyone else) votes as the day goes on. A good RVS question is posed as a trap. I'm glad you don't condone policy lynches (other than lynching self-proclaimed scum, which is reasonable). 'Seeming the most scummy' is a bit vague. Do you want to be more specific?

What I intended my answer to imply is that I don't have a specific day 1 criterion.  Why should I?  I hardly have a specific criterion ever, why should I have a subcategory that applies to a specific day outside of mylo?

Counter question: at the end of the day, should you always be voting for the person you most want lynched? What about in cases where that person has a clear lead in the vote, and you've explicitly stated your approval of his lynch?

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day One - A Cunning Plan
Post by: notquitethere on July 26, 2013, 05:04:13 am

TheWetSheep

Quote from: TheWetSheep on July 25, 2013, 02:44:01 pm

Yes, but not in a way that will help me determine if you are scum or town. That makes your answer wrong, I guess.

The more you know about your fellow player's baseline reactions to things, the easier it is to judge when they're reacting strangely to something. But I take your point: don't think either of us are gaining anything properly useful from this exchange yet.

Your vote on Griffinpup is very weak: they obviously started the game with an empty vote like most players do. It's an odd thing to pressure someone on. Where's the issue?

Nerjin

Quote from: Nerjin on July 25, 2013, 01:50:18 pm

The IC voice is to be used ONLY as a teaching tool. If you abuse it here I shall rally against you in every single game you are a part of. You seem like a nice guy. You better not sabotage all of these new guys' first game of mafia by being a total ass. Other than out-right abuse I plan to just look at you like I normally do. Pointing out scummy behavior and the like.

That's a reasonable answer (and of course, I wouldn't sabotage someone's game like that-- there's no honour in such a win). You've got every chance of being scum, but at least we can agree about the abuse of authority.

Griffinpup

Quote from: griffinpup on July 25, 2013, 04:15:08 pm

2. I fail to see the difference.  Avoiding answering questions, regardless of the reason, is dodging questions.

Then could you answer this RVS question I asked you:

Quote from: notquitethere on July 25, 2013, 01:02:10 am

How important do you think inter-game meta is?

Quote from: griffinpup on July 25, 2013, 10:50:24 pm

ICs:
I do need your guys' help on this one.  How do I handle someone so... Illogical that I can't even understand or justify any of their questions taken?

Nerjin might take a different view, but I would counsel always looking at the other person's posts and asking yourself "Why would a town player say these things?" If you don't understand part of another person's post (perhaps because of their use of language -- this used to happen to me a bit with Tiruin), assume they meant the most intelligent interpretation of what they wrote or calmly ask them to rephrase things.

DaveTheGrave

Quote from: DaveTheGrave on July 25, 2013, 08:43:37 pm

Quote from: Imperial Guardsman on July 25, 2013, 08:36:08 pm

Quote from: DaveTheGrave on July 25, 2013, 08:32:08 pm

I'd also like to: Unvote Imperial, Vote Griffin

Y u do dis

Why are you concerned.

It's reasonable to question a vote which isn't accompanied with either a reason for suspicion or a pressuring question.

Griffionday

Quote from: Griffionday on July 26, 2013, 03:25:33 am

What I intended my answer to imply is that I don't have a specific day 1 criterion.  Why should I?  I hardly have a specific criterion ever, why should I have a subcategory that applies to a specific day outside of mylo?

Counter question: at the end of the day, should you always be voting for the person you most want lynched? What about in cases where that person has a clear lead in the vote, and you've explicitly stated your approval of his lynch?

The different thing about day 1 is that there is no info to be gained from flips and less time has passed for scum to make a flip. Under these different conditions, certain scum-tells might be more important than others. It's okay if you don't have an overarching theory on how to play day 1, but I thought I'd check.

By the end of the day you should be voting for the player you want lynched, unless tactically voting for someone else would save a confirmed town player (say, if you're the cop). Even when your lynch candidate is the clear majority and your vote isn't adding anything to that, you'd have to have a very good reason for voting for someone else (perhaps role-power related), and it's not a situation I could justifiably happening in a BM. Do you disagree?

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day One - A Cunning Plan - Replacement Needed
Post by: DaveTheGrave on July 26, 2013, 07:09:43 am

Quote from: griffinpup on July 25, 2013, 10:50:24 pm

Dave:
You have stated that you found IG scummy, so you left your vote on him.  You also said that you left your vote on him as incentive to remove his.  Which is it?

Quote from: DaveTheGrave on July 25, 2013, 08:43:37 pm

I lost suspicion for one, and gained one for another.
- snip
I did, and still have suspicion.

In your latest post you offer a contradiction.  These are both about IG, and you say that you have lost any and all suspicion for him in your first statement.  You then say that you still have suspicion.  Which is it, and why the contradiction?
Why am I suddenly so suspicious? Is it because I voted you?

ICs:
I do need your guys' help on this one.  How do I handle someone so... Illogical that I can't even understand or justify any of their questions taken?
IG:
When I wrote your RSV question, this is what I meant.
Why didn't you ask RVS questions to everyone?

Powder Miner:

Quote from: Powder Miner on July 25, 2013, 07:25:05 pm

Quote from: griffinpup on July 25, 2013, 05:26:39 pm

Quote from: Powder Miner on July 25, 2013, 05:19:56 pm

If you're not finding new people to go after, that's a bad thing. You shouldn't only be focusing on voting IG into the ground, Dave (that's called tunneling, by the way), instead you should be gathering data on multiple people. That's why you should change it- ignoring everyone else in favor of one man can often be seen as scummy.

I politely disagree.  You totally should go after multiple people at a time, but I don't see that as a reason to change your vote.  If you think one person is the mafia, you BETTER be voting him over everyone else.

That's not what I meant. If Dave truly only has his vote on IG because there's "no reason to change", that means he's not actually finding anything to do. You shouldn't ever not be voting/pointlessly leave a vote somewhere due to having nothing to do

OK. That makes more sense.

Thats not a contradiction, thats me explaining I still have suspicion for him, but I have more for you.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day One - A Cunning Plan - Replacement Needed
Post by: DaveTheGrave on July 26, 2013, 07:15:20 am

Quote from: Nerjin on July 25, 2013, 11:52:21 pm

-snip logical information that you can read by scrolling up-

He was just lurking and hadnt posted anything applicable until he got vote, which made him go pseudo aggressive, and start to get, what I perceived as, extremely frustrated. Which to me seemed very scum like, and I felt the vote was well earned.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day One - A Cunning Plan - Replacement Needed
Post by: Imperial Guardsman on July 26, 2013, 07:49:35 am

Quote from: griffinpup on July 25, 2013, 10:50:24 pm

IG:
When I wrote your RSV question, this is what I meant.
Why didn't you ask RVS questions to everyone?

Because dave got my attention before any others.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day One - A Cunning Plan - Replacement Needed
Post by: griffinpup on July 26, 2013, 08:58:47 am

Dave: You didn't answer my questions

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day One - A Cunning Plan - Replacement Needed
Post by: DaveTheGrave on July 26, 2013, 09:24:50 am

Quote from: griffinpup on July 26, 2013, 08:58:47 am

Dave: You didn't answer my questions

what questions

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day One - A Cunning Plan - Replacement Needed
Post by: griffinpup on July 26, 2013, 09:38:18 am

Dave: ALL of these questions.
Also, I find it doubtful that you missed these, seeing as YOU QUOTED THEM.

Quote from: griffinpup on July 25, 2013, 10:50:24 pm

Dave:
You have stated that you found IG scummy, so you left your vote on him.  You also said that you left your vote on him as incentive to remove his.  Which is it?

Quote from: DaveTheGrave on July 25, 2013, 08:43:37 pm

I lost suspicion for one, and gained one for another.
- snip
I did, and still have suspicion.

In your latest post you offer a contradiction.  These are both about IG, and you say that you have lost any and all suspicion for him in your first statement.  You then say that you still have suspicion.  Which is it, and why the contradiction?
Why am I suddenly so suspicious? Is it because I voted you?

GriffionDay:
Why's your vote still on me?

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day One - A Cunning Plan - Replacement Needed
Post by: Imperial Guardsman on July 26, 2013, 09:52:41 am

Its a 50/50 chance hes either a VI or Scum.
Its a 99.9 chance he will be D1 Lynch.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day One - A Cunning Plan - Replacement Needed
Post by: TheWetSheep on July 26, 2013, 10:24:58 am

Griffinpup:

Quote from: griffinpup on July 25, 2013, 08:36:56 pm

Why not?  I'm not sure what you're looking for with this conversation.  I wanted to be the first one to post.  I didn't have time to do a full set of RVS, but I hate when people are like "first post!"  so I decided to throw out my vote on one of the new people.  It was purely a reaction-test.  Think of it as seeing how the new kid reacts to being called scum for fallacious reasoning.  It was just luck that the person I 'omgused' actually did suck.

At this point I'm more concerned about the crap reason you gave me for it when I first asked you. "Boy sucks because he hasn't posted yet". Why give me an answer that contains obviously impossible reasoning for that first post?

NQT: We're just coming out of RVS. I unvoted my previous RVS target and decided to go after something a little bit stronger, and I feel like Dave has quite enough pressure on him as it is. Also, see my answer to him for the issue.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day One - A Cunning Plan - Replacement Needed
Post by: DaveTheGrave on July 26, 2013, 11:32:09 am

Quote from: griffinpup on July 26, 2013, 09:38:18 am

Dave: ALL of these questions.
Also, I find it doubtful that you missed these, seeing as YOU QUOTED THEM.

Quote from: griffinpup on July 25, 2013, 10:50:24 pm

Dave:
You have stated that you found IG scummy, so you left your vote on him.  You also said that you left your vote on him as incentive to remove his.  Which is it?

Quote from: DaveTheGrave on July 25, 2013, 08:43:37 pm

I lost suspicion for one, and gained one for another.
- snip
I did, and still have suspicion.

In your latest post you offer a contradiction.  These are both about IG, and you say that you have lost any and all suspicion for him in your first statement.  You then say that you still have suspicion.  Which is it, and why the contradiction?
Why am I suddenly so suspicious? Is it because I voted you?

GriffionDay:
Why's your vote still on me?

Because Im still suspicious of you? Which I've already stated my reasons for.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day One - A Cunning Plan - Replacement Needed
Post by: Griffionday on July 26, 2013, 01:06:01 pm

Quote from: griffinpup on July 26, 2013, 09:38:18 am

GriffionDay:
Why's your vote still on me?

Me being too lazy to unvote I think.

---

Imperial Guardsman:

Quote from: Imperial Guardsman on July 26, 2013, 09:52:41 am

Its a 50/50 chance hes either a VI or Scum.
Its a 99.9 chance he will be D1 Lynch.

Is this in response to my question (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=127764.msg4435902#msg4435902)?

If so, how does having a cop help us on determining the validity of a D1 lynch?

Also why are you so confident that he'll be the D1 lynch?  Do you see any problem with the fact that it is so certain a thing?

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day One - A Cunning Plan
Post by: Griffionday on July 26, 2013, 01:17:01 pm

Quote from: notquitethere on July 26, 2013, 05:04:13 am

Griffionday

Quote from: Griffionday on July 26, 2013, 03:25:33 am

What I intended my answer to imply is that I don't have a specific day 1 criterion.  Why should I?  I hardly have a specific criterion ever, why should I have a subcategory that applies to a specific day outside of mylo?

Counter question: at the end of the day, should you always be voting for the person you most want lynched? What about in cases where that person has a clear lead in the vote, and you've explicitly stated your approval of his lynch?

The different thing about day 1 is that there is no info to be gained from flips and less time has passed for scum to make a flip. Under these different conditions, certain scum-tells might be more important than others. It's okay if you don't have an overarching theory on how to play day 1, but I thought I'd check.

By the end of the day you should be voting for the player you want lynched, unless tactically voting for someone else would save a confirmed town player (say, if you're the cop). Even when your lynch candidate is the clear majority and your vote isn't adding anything to that, you'd have to have a very good reason for voting for someone else (perhaps role-power related), and it's not a situation I could justifiably happening in a BM. Do you disagree?

Missed this sorry.

Actually there is one situation where it's appropriate to vote for someone that you don't consider the most scummy, that I think Leafsnail brought up in the previous game.  That is when you need to vote for the one of the vote leaders to break a tie, even if neither is the absolute most scummy.  This is to make your vote as relevant as possible.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day One - A Cunning Plan
Post by: Okami No Rei on July 26, 2013, 01:45:49 pm

Day 1 ends on Monday, July 29 at 8:00pm CST

Votecount

TheWetSheep (1) - notquitethere
griffinpup (2) - TheWetSheep, DaveTheGrave
Griffionday (0) -
Powder Miner (0) -
Imperial Guardsman (0) -
DaveTheGrave (4) - Nerjin, Imperial Guardsman, griffinpup, Powder Miner
Boy (0) -
Nerjin (0) -
notquitethere (0) -

Not Voting - Boy, Griffionday

Extend (0/4) -
Shorten (0/5) -

TheWetSheep has Requested Replacement on or before Sunday, August 11.

Boy is inactive and needs Replacement.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day One - A Cunning Plan - Replacement Needed
Post by: griffinpup on July 26, 2013, 04:19:01 pm

Quote from: TheWetSheep on July 26, 2013, 10:24:58 am

Griffinpup:

Quote from: griffinpup on July 25, 2013, 08:36:56 pm

Why not?  I'm not sure what you're looking for with this conversation.  I wanted to be the first one to post.  I didn't have time to do a full set of RVS, but I hate when people are like "first post!"  so I decided to throw out my vote on one of the new people.  It was purely a reaction-test.  Think of it as seeing how the new kid reacts to being called scum for fallacious reasoning.  It was just luck that the person I 'omgused' actually did suck.

At this point I'm more concerned about the crap reason you gave me for it when I first asked you. "Boy sucks because he hasn't posted yet". Why give me an answer that contains obviously impossible reasoning for that first post?

Your assumptions are wrong.  I never gave you a crap reason.  I merely stated that the literal OMGUS meaning could be applied to Boy.  I never once stated that's the reasoning that I originally used when I voted him. Therefore, your concern is immaterial, as it is based on fictitious events that you assumed happened.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day One - A Cunning Plan - Replacement Needed
Post by: griffinpup on July 26, 2013, 04:24:31 pm

Quote from: DaveTheGrave on July 26, 2013, 11:32:09 am

Because Im still suspicious of you? Which I've already stated my reasons for.

Wow.  The one question that actually wasn't addressed to you, you actually managed to answer.  Regardless, YOU HAVE NEVER STATED REASONS FOR VOTING ME.
Since your brain can't apparently manage complex thought, (in this case multiple questions per quote), I'll individually quote all the questions you missed.

Quote from: griffinpup on July 25, 2013, 10:50:24 pm

Dave:
You have stated that you found IG scummy, so you left your vote on him.  You also said that you left your vote on him as incentive to remove his.  Which is it?

Quote from: griffinpup on July 25, 2013, 10:50:24 pm

Quote from: DaveTheGrave on July 25, 2013, 08:43:37 pm

I lost suspicion for one, and gained one for another.
- snip
I did, and still have suspicion.

In your latest post you offer a contradiction.  These are both about IG, and you say that you have lost any and all suspicion for him in your first statement.  You then say that you still have suspicion.  Which is it, and why the contradiction?

Quote from: griffinpup on July 25, 2013, 10:50:24 pm

Why am I suddenly so suspicious? Is it because I voted you?

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day One - A Cunning Plan - Replacement Needed
Post by: Chink on July 26, 2013, 04:26:02 pm

I am willing to serve as Replacement for Boy.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day One - A Cunning Plan - Replacement Needed
Post by: Okami No Rei on July 26, 2013, 04:40:55 pm

Chink has replaced Boy

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day One - A Cunning Plan - Replacement Requested
Post by: Imperial Guardsman on July 26, 2013, 04:52:53 pm

Chink, you are JK. Who do you jail first night and why?

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day One - A Cunning Plan - Replacement Requested
Post by: Nerjin on July 26, 2013, 05:07:09 pm

Quote from: Imperial Guardsman on July 26, 2013, 04:52:53 pm

Chink, you are JK. Who do you jail first night and why?

Well I'm glad I read the thread before I came in here and yelled at you for being racist.

---

@Dave: Okay here's a thing you might want to try: Answer the questions with logical arguments that are well stated and leave no room for ambivilance with regards to your intentions. Simply saying "X is scummy." Isn't enough. We NEED a why. It seems like most of the people here are voting you for what is arguably a band-wagon vote.

---

@Chink: Well alrighty... Please answer all questions addressed to Mah Boi. Furthermore please inform us as to your thoughts on the game thus far.

---

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day One - A Cunning Plan - Replacement Requested
Post by: Chink on July 26, 2013, 05:50:46 pm

IG: I'd roleblock either you or Dave, presuming I can't try it on myself. I'd pick you because seemed rather scummy to me after your initial argument with Dave, although if Dave is scum, I wouldn't think you were. I'd go for Dave if he didn't get lynched, though, because his actions here, such as ignoring questions asked of him, seem really scummy. I guess he could just be a really nervous townie, though.
Nerjin: Could you please link me the questions? The thread is pretty large, and I'm sure I'd miss some of them. As for my thoughts on the game so far, I think that it has been going well.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

((Also, sorry about the semi-racist name. When I picked the name, I didn't know that it was also a slur word, and it's too late to change it now.))

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day One - A Cunning Plan - Replacement Requested
Post by: DaveTheGrave on July 26, 2013, 06:20:27 pm

Quote from: Nerjin on July 26, 2013, 05:07:09 pm

@Dave: Okay here's a thing you might want to try: Answer the questions with logical arguments that are well stated and leave no room for ambivilance with regards to your intentions. Simply saying "X is scummy." Isn't enough. We NEED a why. It seems like most of the people here are voting you for what is arguably a band-wagon vote.

Thats fair enough.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day One - A Cunning Plan - Replacement Requested
Post by: Powder Miner on July 26, 2013, 06:33:08 pm

Quote from: DaveTheGrave on July 26, 2013, 06:20:27 pm

Quote from: Nerjin on July 26, 2013, 05:07:09 pm

@Dave: Okay here's a thing you might want to try: Answer the questions with logical arguments that are well stated and leave no room for ambivilance with regards to your intentions. Simply saying "X is scummy." Isn't enough. We NEED a why. It seems like most of the people here are voting you for what is arguably a band-wagon vote.

Thats fair enough.

You didn't actually answer any questions here, as I will note.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day One - A Cunning Plan - Replacement Requested
Post by: Chink on July 26, 2013, 07:08:42 pm

griffinpup: Why, do you think, are you second in the running for being lynched? What scumtells do you think you've been giving?

NQT: You are a generic scum, D1. Who do you want to target N1, and why?

Powder Miner: You are a cop. Who do you target for N1, and why?

IG: You are a Rolecop, D1. Who do you target N1, and why?

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day One - A Cunning Plan - Replacement Requested
Post by: Imperial Guardsman on July 26, 2013, 07:31:45 pm

NQT, because of how he frequently gets power roles/third party.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day One - A Cunning Plan - Replacement Requested
Post by: Powder Miner on July 26, 2013, 09:20:12 pm

Assuming Dave survived, I would pick him, otherwise I would go for Nerjin, my earlier vote, or griffinpup, the runner-up in votes.
Chink: Supposing you're a jailkeeper, who do you not target?

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day One - A Cunning Plan - Replacement Requested
Post by: Griffionday on July 26, 2013, 09:31:05 pm

Quote from: Powder Miner on July 26, 2013, 09:20:12 pm

Assuming Dave survived, I would pick him, otherwise I would go for Nerjin, my earlier vote, or griffinpup, the runner-up in votes.
Chink: Supposing you're a jailkeeper, who do you not target?

I'm "your earlier vote"? I'm offended.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day One - A Cunning Plan - Replacement Requested
Post by: Chink on July 26, 2013, 09:41:22 pm

Powder Miner: Nerjin. I haven't seen anything to make me think he's mafia, so no reason to target him.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day One - A Cunning Plan - Replacement Requested
Post by: griffinpup on July 26, 2013, 09:48:57 pm

Quote from: Chink on July 26, 2013, 07:08:42 pm

griffinpup: Why, do you think, are you second in the running for being lynched? What scumtells do you think you've been giving?

Because people have been voting me for fallacious reasoning. 
I haven't been giving off any scumtells.  Dave merely panicked, OMGUS'ing and bandwagon voting me to avoid being lynched.  In fact, he still hasn't given a reason for voting me other then a  vague accusation of scumminess.
TheWetSheep, on the other hand, has voted me on mistaken assumptions, and I believe that that misunderstanding will be sorted out promptly.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day One - A Cunning Plan - Replacement Requested
Post by: Powder Miner on July 26, 2013, 09:52:09 pm

Quote from: Griffionday on July 26, 2013, 09:31:05 pm

Quote from: Powder Miner on July 26, 2013, 09:20:12 pm

Assuming Dave survived, I would pick him, otherwise I would go for Nerjin, my earlier vote, or griffinpup, the runner-up in votes.
Chink: Supposing you're a jailkeeper, who do you not target?

I'm "your earlier vote"? I'm offended.

I... never mentioned your name.
Chink: I'd believed he was active lurking, but he'd been focusing on teaching as an IC.
Also, IG, you realize investigating someone based on their luck in roles is fallacious logic, yes?

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day One - A Cunning Plan - Replacement Requested
Post by: Griffionday on July 26, 2013, 10:26:22 pm

Quote from: griffinpup on July 26, 2013, 09:48:57 pm

Quote from: Chink on July 26, 2013, 07:08:42 pm

griffinpup: Why, do you think, are you second in the running for being lynched? What scumtells do you think you've been giving?

Because people have been voting me for fallacious reasoning. 
I haven't been giving off any scumtells.  Dave merely panicked, OMGUS'ing and bandwagon voting me to avoid being lynched.  In fact, he still hasn't given a reason for voting me other then a  vague accusation of scumminess.
TheWetSheep, on the other hand, has voted me on mistaken assumptions, and I believe that that misunderstanding will be sorted out promptly.

So... you been deliberately giving off no scumtells?  What about the one where you carefully give off no scum tells?

---

Quote from: Powder Miner on July 26, 2013, 09:52:09 pm

Quote from: Griffionday on July 26, 2013, 09:31:05 pm

Quote from: Powder Miner on July 26, 2013, 09:20:12 pm

Assuming Dave survived, I would pick him, otherwise I would go for Nerjin, my earlier vote, or griffinpup, the runner-up in votes.

I'm "your earlier vote"? I'm offended.

I... never mentioned your name.

Sorry, I thought that was a 4 item list and not and two item list with descriptors, my bad.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day One - A Cunning Plan - Replacement Requested
Post by: griffinpup on July 26, 2013, 10:41:09 pm

Quote from: Griffionday on July 26, 2013, 10:26:22 pm

Quote from: griffinpup on July 26, 2013, 09:48:57 pm

Quote from: Chink on July 26, 2013, 07:08:42 pm

griffinpup: Why, do you think, are you second in the running for being lynched? What scumtells do you think you've been giving?

Because people have been voting me for fallacious reasoning. 
I haven't been giving off any scumtells.  Dave merely panicked, OMGUS'ing and bandwagon voting me to avoid being lynched.  In fact, he still hasn't given a reason for voting me other then a  vague accusation of scumminess.
TheWetSheep, on the other hand, has voted me on mistaken assumptions, and I believe that that misunderstanding will be sorted out promptly.

So... you been deliberately giving off no scumtells?  What about the one where you carefully give off no scum tells?

---

I wouldn't say deliberately, but I haven't given off any scum tells.  The scum tell of giving off no scum tells is a little silly, but isn't applicable either because that implies both intentionally avoiding scum tells, (which I haven't) and mainly deals with cases in which the player in question has been acting scummy, but has avoided every generic 'scum tell'.  I, on the other hand, emulate town play. :D

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day One - A Cunning Plan - Replacement Requested
Post by: Chink on July 26, 2013, 10:53:51 pm

Quote from: griffinpup on July 24, 2013, 10:09:10 pm

Boy - Have you read a mafia game on this forum yet?  If so, which one(s)?

Quote from: Powder Miner on July 24, 2013, 07:26:18 pm

Boy: You're a mafia roleblocker. It's Night 1. How would you decide to roleblock?

Quote from: TheWetSheep on July 24, 2013, 06:50:27 pm

Boy: If you got a scum inspect result on Night 1 would you claim or wait and try to find the second one?

Quote from: Nerjin on July 24, 2013, 06:02:08 pm

Mah Boy: Peace is what all true warriors strive for. Let's assume you're the cop and you get an innocent inspection. However you feel like the mafia is onto you but you're not sure. Do you claim or bank on not getting caught?

I've dug up all of the questions directed at Boy I could find.
Griffinpup: I have looked at Toon Mafia VII, but I just skimmed most of that.
Powder Miner: I'd probably pick at random out of those that aren't my scum buddies, as there wouldn't be enough evidence to know who has roles.
WetSheep: Wait. Claiming immediately would cause the mafia to kill/roleblock me next night.
Nerjin: Bank on not getting caught. Claiming someone is innocent exposes that I might be the cop, and is really just too risky in my opinion.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day One - A Cunning Plan - Replacement Requested
Post by: TheWetSheep on July 26, 2013, 11:55:45 pm

Griffinpup: OK, I see now. Unvote.

Quote from: griffinpup on July 26, 2013, 10:41:09 pm

I wouldn't say deliberately, but I haven't given off any scum tells.

Is that for you to decide?

Quote from: griffinpup on July 26, 2013, 04:24:31 pm

YOU HAVE NEVER STATED REASONS FOR VOTING ME.

Actually, he did. Right here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=127764.msg4436149#msg4436149).

Dave: It's getting kind of tiring having to point out questions you've missed again and again. Can you please carefully read the thread and answer all questions addressed to you? Or is there another reason you're not answering questions?

---

I just got rather short notice that I'll be on a trip soon, leaving Sunday and getting back Tuesday. I won't have internet.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day One - A Cunning Plan - Replacement Requested
Post by: griffinpup on July 27, 2013, 12:04:37 am

Quote from: TheWetSheep on July 26, 2013, 11:55:45 pm

Quote from: griffinpup on July 26, 2013, 10:41:09 pm

I wouldn't say deliberately, but I haven't given off any scum tells.

2. Is that for you to decide?

Quote from: griffinpup on July 26, 2013, 04:24:31 pm

YOU HAVE NEVER STATED REASONS FOR VOTING ME.

3. Actually, he did. Right here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=127764.msg4436149#msg4436149).

2. Yes.  You have no idea what I do deliberately.

3. Hmm.  I assumed that was about IG:

Dave:
What was the longest time period between all my posts?

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day One - A Cunning Plan - Replacement Requested
Post by: Imperial Guardsman on July 27, 2013, 09:56:30 am

Quote from: Powder Miner on July 26, 2013, 09:52:09 pm

Also, IG, you realize investigating someone based on their luck in roles is fallacious logic, yes?

Hey, its not end of day and nobody has claimed.
Its either nobody or NQT.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day One - A Cunning Plan
Post by: Okami No Rei on July 27, 2013, 11:18:35 am

Day 1 ends on Monday, July 29 at 8:00pm CST

Votecount

TheWetSheep (1) - notquitethere
griffinpup (1) - DaveTheGrave
Griffionday (0) -
Powder Miner (0) -
Imperial Guardsman (0) -
DaveTheGrave (4) - Nerjin, Imperial Guardsman, griffinpup, Powder Miner
Chink (0) -
Nerjin (0) -
notquitethere (0) -

Not Voting - Chink, Griffionday, TheWetSheep

Extend (0/4) -
Shorten (0/5) -

TheWetSheep has Requested Replacement on or before Sunday, August 11.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day One - A Cunning Plan - Replacement Requested
Post by: Imperial Guardsman on July 27, 2013, 06:21:19 pm

Y U NO PLAY MAFIA

Also, might want to remove replacement requested from the title...

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day One - A Cunning Plan - Replacement Requested
Post by: griffinpup on July 27, 2013, 07:30:44 pm

I guess it's the weekend, but still.  Without any activity, and none on the horizon, perhaps we should shorten?

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day One - A Cunning Plan - Replacement Requested
Post by: Nerjin on July 27, 2013, 11:47:46 pm

Oppose Shorten We don't need to shorten. People are busy so activity WILL be lower. BUT on day 1 we probably shouldn't shorten just in case someone comes in with a good read. Just keep an eye out.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day One - A Cunning Plan - Replacement Requested
Post by: Powder Miner on July 28, 2013, 01:56:21 am

Quick warning before i sleeeeep
I'm doing something for a couple days from monday, so posting will be limited or nonexistent.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day One - A Cunning Plan - Replacement Needed
Post by: notquitethere on July 28, 2013, 06:19:20 am

Griffinpup

Quote from: griffinpup on July 26, 2013, 08:58:47 am

Dave: You didn't answer my questions

And you didn't answer mine. Is this deliberate?

TheWetSheep

Quote from: TheWetSheep on July 26, 2013, 10:24:58 am

NQT: We're just coming out of RVS. I unvoted my previous RVS target and decided to go after something a little bit stronger, and I feel like Dave has quite enough pressure on him as it is. Also, see my answer to him for the issue.

Okay, that's a bit more reasonable.

Imperial Guardsman

Quote from: Imperial Guardsman on July 26, 2013, 09:52:41 am

Its a 50/50 chance hes either a VI or Scum.
Its a 99.9 chance he will be D1 Lynch.

Calling the lynch target and admitting that they're only half-likely to be scum doesn't seem to be a particularly pro-town move. If Dave is lynched and they flip town, it's this sort of pronouncement that will look poorly in your favour. Do you have any reads on the other players?

Quote from: Imperial Guardsman on July 26, 2013, 07:31:45 pm

NQT, because of how he frequently gets power roles/third party.

Ah, you believe in a sort of cosmic luck. It is true that in life I am the third-party, a loose cannon spouting loose canon; a maverick 90 degrees askew from the rest of civilisation. But really, there are probably better reasons to rolecop someone.

Griffionday

Quote from: Griffionday on July 26, 2013, 01:17:01 pm

Actually there is one situation where it's appropriate to vote for someone that you don't consider the most scummy, that I think Leafsnail brought up in the previous game.  That is when you need to vote for the one of the vote leaders to break a tie, even if neither is the absolute most scummy.  This is to make your vote as relevant as possible.

You're absolutely right, and I should have thought of that. Being the tie-breaker is an important job for a town player and I've been in that situation a few times myself, both successfully and unsuccessfully. In a tie-vote situation, not breaking the tie when you have an opportunity is suspicious act that the other players have grounds to question.

Chink

Quote from: Chink on July 26, 2013, 07:08:42 pm

NQT: You are a generic scum, D1. Who do you want to target N1, and why?

You can just ask the scum IC this sort of thing  ;). I'd target the most competent town player that is also least likely to be mislynched, which at this stage is probably Powder Miner or Nerjin (assuming that they're town). What would you do?

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day One - A Cunning Plan - Replacement Requested
Post by: Parsely on July 28, 2013, 07:05:11 am

((Can I IN, or is this full? :C I've never played Mafia before.))

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day One - A Cunning Plan - Replacement Requested
Post by: notquitethere on July 28, 2013, 07:28:23 am

Quote from: GUNINANRUNIN on July 28, 2013, 07:05:11 am

((Can I IN, or is this full? :C I've never played Mafia before.))

((The game is full but you could go on the replacement list. One player is definitely leaving in two weeks. As you're a Bay12 regular and aren't about to disappear like an escaped lunatic, Nerjin might be amenable to you jumping into Elements  (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=127940.0)which is currently in sign-ups.))

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day One - A Cunning Plan - Replacement Requested
Post by: Parsely on July 28, 2013, 08:56:06 am

Quote from: notquitethere on July 28, 2013, 07:28:23 am

Quote from: GUNINANRUNIN on July 28, 2013, 07:05:11 am

((Can I IN, or is this full? :C I've never played Mafia before.))

((The game is full but you could go on the replacement list. One player is definitely leaving in two weeks. As you're a Bay12 regular and aren't about to disappear like an escaped lunatic, Nerjin might be amenable to you jumping into Elements  (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=127940.0)which is currently in sign-ups.))

((As long as its beginner friendly. All the same I'll probably join either way.))
Replacement list me please.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day One - A Cunning Plan - Replacement Requested
Post by: griffinpup on July 28, 2013, 09:22:58 am

Quote from: GUNINANRUNIN on July 28, 2013, 07:05:11 am

((Can I IN, or is this full? :C I've never played Mafia before.))

Oh joy. Let's let someone who's emotionally driven and can't handle any form of criticism play.  As you can tell, my past experience with gun is... Less then pleasant.  But if he is going to be on the replacement list, doesn't that make him TWS's replacement?

NQT: rephrase your question.  I've been meaning to ask you to do so, but I've forgotten a few times.  Inter-game meta literally means nothing to me.

Quote from: Nerjin on July 27, 2013, 11:47:46 pm

Oppose Shorten We don't need to shorten. People are busy so activity WILL be lower. BUT on day 1 we probably shouldn't shorten just in case someone comes in with a good read. Just keep an eye out.

But my vote on Dave isn't very likely to move until he INTELLIGENTLY answers my questions.  I see your point, but the same logic could  be applied to endlessly extending the game.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day One - A Cunning Plan - Replacement Requested
Post by: Parsely on July 28, 2013, 09:35:26 am

Quote from: griffinpup on July 28, 2013, 09:22:58 am

Quote from: GUNINANRUNIN on July 28, 2013, 07:05:11 am

((Can I IN, or is this full? :C I've never played Mafia before.))

Oh joy. Let's let someone who's emotionally driven and can't handle any form of criticism play.  As you can tell, my past experience with gun is... Less then pleasant.  But if he is going to be on the replacement list, doesn't that make him TWS's replacement?

((Don't.

Apparently you've been hanging onto that worthless argument we had ever since it ended nearly a week ago. I had already forgotten about it. Its in the past, and I have no hard feelings against you for it. You need to let it go Griffin instead of trying to pick a fight.))

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day One - A Cunning Plan - Replacement Needed
Post by: Imperial Guardsman on July 28, 2013, 10:32:43 am

Quote from: notquitethere on July 28, 2013, 06:19:20 am

Imperial Guardsman

Quote from: Imperial Guardsman on July 26, 2013, 09:52:41 am

Its a 50/50 chance hes either a VI or Scum.
Its a 99.9 chance he will be D1 Lynch.

Calling the lynch target and admitting that they're only half-likely to be scum doesn't seem to be a particularly pro-town move. If Dave is lynched and they flip town, it's this sort of pronouncement that will look poorly in your favour. Do you have any reads on the other players?

Unfortunately, i dont have any reads yet...

Quote from: Imperial Guardsman on July 26, 2013, 07:31:45 pm

NQT, because of how he frequently gets power roles/third party.

Ah, you believe in a sort of cosmic luck. It is true that in life I am the third-party, a loose cannon spouting loose canon; a maverick 90 degrees askew from the rest of civilisation. But really, there are probably better reasons to rolecop someone.

I dont have proof of anything so im going to rolecop based on "cosmic luck."

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day One - A Cunning Plan - Replacement Requested
Post by: notquitethere on July 28, 2013, 10:36:55 am

Griffinpup

Quote from: griffinpup on July 28, 2013, 09:22:58 am

NQT: rephrase your question.  I've been meaning to ask you to do so, but I've forgotten a few times.  Inter-game meta literally means nothing to me.

Ah, right, advanced lingo. Often in mafia we talk about someone's 'meta', but that's just a jargon way of referring to our sense of their general playstyle. So for example, I know that Dariush is generally belligerent and unpleasant. Where he appears more co-operative and approaches pleasantness (as in Mafia & Masons and Revolution 2), he's probably playing scum. I was wondering whether you thought your experience with players in other games that you've played or read would in any way inform your read on those players. So, at the beginning of this game I noted that you were hostile to me based on my behaviour in Revolution 2, but this doesn't seem like good town play as I can now confirm that I was deliberately playing uncooperatively in that game as a part of a successful spy strategy. In fact, those that knew my general playstyle would have seen I was acting out of character (compare to Revolution 1 in which I was incensed at being mislabelled a spy and worked ceaselessly to clear my name). But meta can be manipulated. If players expect you to act in a certain way, you can hide your alignment by playing up to expectations. What do you think?

Imperial Guardsman

Quote from: Imperial Guardsman on July 28, 2013, 10:32:43 am

I dont have proof of anything so im going to rolecop based on "cosmic luck."

Uh... was this a slip of the keyboard, or did you really just claim to be the rolecop in a more than hypothetical sense?

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day One - A Cunning Plan - Replacement Requested
Post by: griffinpup on July 28, 2013, 10:41:28 am

Quote from: GUNINANRUNIN on July 28, 2013, 09:35:26 am

Quote from: griffinpup on July 28, 2013, 09:22:58 am

Quote from: GUNINANRUNIN on July 28, 2013, 07:05:11 am

((Can I IN, or is this full? :C I've never played Mafia before.))

Oh joy. Let's let someone who's emotionally driven and can't handle any form of criticism play.  As you can tell, my past experience with gun is... Less then pleasant.  But if he is going to be on the replacement list, doesn't that make him TWS's replacement?

((Don't.

Apparently you've been hanging onto that worthless argument we had ever since it ended nearly a week ago. I had already forgotten about it. Its in the past, and I have no hard feelings against you for it. You need to let it go Griffin instead of trying to pick a fight.))

I actually laughed when I read this.  You apparently don't comprehend what picking a fight is in this game.  Let me make something perfectly clear. 
I'm not trying to pick a fight.
When I do, you will know it.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day One - A Cunning Plan - Replacement Requested
Post by: Parsely on July 28, 2013, 10:46:08 am

Quote from: griffinpup on July 28, 2013, 10:41:28 am

Quote from: GUNINANRUNIN on July 28, 2013, 09:35:26 am

Quote from: griffinpup on July 28, 2013, 09:22:58 am

Quote from: GUNINANRUNIN on July 28, 2013, 07:05:11 am

((Can I IN, or is this full? :C I've never played Mafia before.))

Oh joy. Let's let someone who's emotionally driven and can't handle any form of criticism play.  As you can tell, my past experience with gun is... Less then pleasant.  But if he is going to be on the replacement list, doesn't that make him TWS's replacement?

((Don't.

Apparently you've been hanging onto that worthless argument we had ever since it ended nearly a week ago. I had already forgotten about it. Its in the past, and I have no hard feelings against you for it. You need to let it go Griffin instead of trying to pick a fight.))

I actually laughed when I read this.  You apparently don't comprehend what picking a fight is in this game.  Let me make something perfectly clear. 
I'm not trying to pick a fight.
When I do, you will know it.

((Well you were being childish before, so I assumed it was a personal attack. I'm not even in yet. :-\))

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day One - A Cunning Plan - Replacement Requested
Post by: griffinpup on July 28, 2013, 10:52:32 am

Gun:
I think that you're effectively TWS's replacement at this point.  All you need is the role pm. 
Also, that post was never addressed to you.

Also, oppose shorten. With a new player we'll need some more time to do RVS.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day One - A Cunning Plan - Replacement Requested
Post by: Imperial Guardsman on July 28, 2013, 10:55:08 am

Quote from: notquitethere on July 28, 2013, 10:36:55 am

Imperial Guardsman

Quote from: Imperial Guardsman on July 28, 2013, 10:32:43 am

I dont have proof of anything so im going to rolecop based on "cosmic luck."

Uh... was this a slip of the keyboard, or did you really just claim to be the rolecop in a more than hypothetical sense?

No. We are still on the question.
I was asked who i would rolecop if i were the rolecop.
I said i would rolecop you based on your luck with roles if nobody claimed or hinted toward their power role.
Power and you said this was not a good idea.
I responded that i still dont have proof of anything, so i will rolecop based on cosmic luck.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day One - A Cunning Plan - Replacement Requested
Post by: notquitethere on July 28, 2013, 11:18:53 am

Imperial

Quote from: Imperial Guardsman on July 28, 2013, 10:55:08 am

I responded that i still dont have proof of anything, so i will rolecop based on cosmic luck.

I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt here because you're obviously making some effort to clarify yourself and I appreciate that, but in future bear in mind that there's a big difference between saying 'I will rolecop' and 'I would rolecop'.

You say you don't have any reads yet, and it's still early game so I guess that's okay. Let's try to develop some reads. Take a look at Powder Miner and Chink: who do you find scummier and why?

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day One - A Cunning Plan - Replacement Requested
Post by: TheWetSheep on July 28, 2013, 11:20:08 am

Am I being replaced now, or on August 11?

It might be best to replace me now, since I'm gone for a few days now too. This'll be my last post.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day One - A Cunning Plan - Replacement Requested
Post by: Imperial Guardsman on July 28, 2013, 11:36:57 am

Quote from: notquitethere on July 28, 2013, 11:18:53 am

You say you don't have any reads yet, and it's still early game so I guess that's okay. Let's try to develop some reads. Take a look at Powder Miner and Chink: who do you find scummier and why?

Chink is acting quite hostile towards me. He is targeting me to get information out of me, but that is normal town play.
Chink is either town or scum trying to blend in.

Powderminer is activelurking from the look of it, but he is still asking good questions and actively trying to obtain information.
Town, leaning towards scum.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day One - A Cunning Plan - Replacement Requested
Post by: griffinpup on July 28, 2013, 11:46:18 am

IG:
your reads or incomprehensible.  'Town, or scum.'  "Town, leaning scum."  Which is it?

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day One - A Cunning Plan - Replacement Requested
Post by: notquitethere on July 28, 2013, 11:57:49 am

Griffpup, there could have been a clarifying comma but I think it's unfair to say that the reads were incomprehensible. They showed that Imp had taken a moment to look at Chink and Powder and come with an impression. It's okay not to know whether someone is scum or town at this stage. Being absolutely certain would smack of scummishness or bullheadedness.

Do you have reads yet?

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day One - A Cunning Plan - Replacement Requested
Post by: Imperial Guardsman on July 28, 2013, 12:07:08 pm

Let me clarify.
Chink is either a townie, or a member of the scum team trying to blend in.
PowderMiner is may likely be town, but he shows some scuminess ( in his active lurking )

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day One - A Cunning Plan - Replacement Requested
Post by: Powder Miner on July 28, 2013, 12:15:37 pm

The active lurking is due to the fact that I'm trying to remporarily lessen my involvement in the game- due to the fact that I'm busy getting ready for a trip I'm taking tomorrow, and am about to take that trip for a few days. I simply don't have the time to hunt though the thread for scumtells right now.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day One - A Cunning Plan
Post by: Okami No Rei on July 28, 2013, 12:21:05 pm

GUNINANRUNIN has replaced TheWetSheep

Day 1 ends on Monday, July 29 at 8:00pm CST

32 Hours Remain in the Day

Votecount

GUNINANRUNIN (0) -
griffinpup (1) - DaveTheGrave
Griffionday (0) -
Powder Miner (0) -
Imperial Guardsman (1) - notquitethere
DaveTheGrave (4) - Nerjin, Imperial Guardsman, griffinpup, Powder Miner
Chink (0) -
Nerjin (0) -
notquitethere (0) -

Not Voting - Chink, Griffionday, GUNINANRUNIN

Extend (0/4) -
Shorten (-2/5) -!Nerjin, !griffinpup

Lurker Tracker (http://www.ocf.berkeley.edu/~azhou/projects/LT/zt.py?topic=127764&start=138&msg=0&numreplace=2&replaced0=Boy&replacer0=Chink&replaced1=TheWetSheep&replacer1=GUNINANRUNIN&numlabel=2&player0=mastahcheese&label0=np&player1=zombie%20urist&label1=np)

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day One - A Cunning Plan - Replacement Requested
Post by: Imperial Guardsman on July 28, 2013, 12:30:57 pm

Quote from: Powder Miner on July 28, 2013, 12:15:37 pm

The active lurking is due to the fact that I'm trying to remporarily lessen my involvement in the game- due to the fact that I'm busy getting ready for a trip I'm taking tomorrow, and am about to take that trip for a few days. I simply don't have the time to hunt though the thread for scumtells right now.

Oh, sorry. Yeah, PM is likely town.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day One - A Cunning Plan - Replacement Requested
Post by: griffinpup on July 28, 2013, 12:38:06 pm

Quote from: notquitethere on July 28, 2013, 11:57:49 am

Griffpup, there could have been a clarifying comma but I think it's unfair to say that the reads were incomprehensible. They showed that Imp had taken a moment to look at Chink and Powder and come with an impression. It's okay not to know whether someone is scum or town at this stage. Being absolutely certain would smack of scummishness or bullheadedness.

Do you have any reads yet?

He used contradicting terms when describing a player. This directly limited my ability to comprehend what he was trying to get across.  Hence incomprehensible.   The fact that he came up with an impression has nothing to do with how well he writes it down.  He did clarify though, which helped.

Ya, I have reads.
Dave is stupid, and is either super stupid, or panicking scum.  Without answers to my questions, and what looks like an OMGUS and bandwagon vote in an attempt to save himself, he looks decidedly scummy.  This could merely be extreme newbiness, but I doubt it.
And since he doesn't answer my questions, onto prime target number two.
Gun:
Your predecessor pursued the issue of my voting without substance significantly, and then immediately dropped it and moved on.  What's your opinion on the subject?  Do you know why he left the issue so abruptly?

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day One - A Cunning Plan
Post by: notquitethere on July 28, 2013, 01:02:22 pm

Griffpup, I think it's more charitable to say that Dave's play has succumbed to some newplayer mistakes. I'm yet to convinced that he's really scum and not just a bit flaily. Calling him stupid isn't very equitable, or indeed equinamitable: his play hasn't been great but he's clearly got some brains.

Dave, you're the top pick at the moment. Whether you're scum or town, your best move now is to offer a coherent case on another player and show that the attacks on you are ill-founded. Scum hunt now and give good reads of your fellow players, then if you are mislynched then at least the other town players will be able to draw on your perspective. If you're about to be mislynched then the more interactions you can have with players, the more helpful you'll be to town after you're dead.

Chink, is there any reason why you're not using your vote? The vote is town's weapon, without it they cannot pressure and lynch scum.

GUN, welcome to the game. I suggest taking a moment to read through the game (better now before it gets too unwieldy) and making a few notes on the play of each of the players. What's your fresh perspective on everyone?

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day One - A Cunning Plan
Post by: DaveTheGrave on July 28, 2013, 01:18:55 pm

Imperial: Your scum, its N2, and you think youve killed the cop. Whats your next step?
Chink: You are a cop, its N3, theres four people left. All of which are showing signs of aggression towards you. How do you proceed?

Quote from: Imperial Guardsman on July 28, 2013, 12:07:08 pm

Let me clarify.
Chink is either a townie, or a member of the scum trying ot blend in.
PowderMiner is may likely be town, but he shows some scuminess ( in his active lurking )

You do realise that thats the point of the game correct?

My suspicions are that Imperial and Griffin are scum buddies, since I'm probably going to be lynched anyway, I thought Id put that out there.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day One - A Cunning Plan
Post by: griffinpup on July 28, 2013, 01:26:22 pm

NQT:
I don't normally judge people leniently or favorably, so don't expect me to be 'charitable' now or in the near future.  But you do make one good point.  He must have the mental capacity to access the internet and have the ability to type.  This in turn, does imply some existence of 'brains'.

Dave:
Since you're in the mood to post,
Your accusations against me amount to lurking and being aggressive when I get voted, correct?

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day One - A Cunning Plan
Post by: Imperial Guardsman on July 28, 2013, 01:35:04 pm

Quote from: DaveTheGrave on July 28, 2013, 01:18:55 pm

Imperial: Your scum, its N2, and you think youve killed the cop. Whats your next step?

Quote from: Imperial Guardsman on July 28, 2013, 12:07:08 pm

Let me clarify.
Chink is either a townie, or a member of the scum trying ot blend in.
PowderMiner is may likely be town, but he shows some scuminess ( in his active lurking )

Scum, N2, Killed the cop, next step. Play normal scum and get another kill till scum wins, i guess.
Yes i understand, this means chink is undecided. He could be either.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day One - A Cunning Plan - Replacement Needed
Post by: Chink on July 28, 2013, 01:38:24 pm

Chink

Quote from: notquitethere on July 28, 2013, 06:19:20 am

Quote from: Chink on July 26, 2013, 07:08:42 pm

NQT: You are a generic scum, D1. Who do you want to target N1, and why?

You can just ask the scum IC this sort of thing  ;). I'd target the most competent town player that is also least likely to be mislynched, which at this stage is probably Powder Miner or Nerjin (assuming that they're town). What would you do?

Quote from: notquitethere on July 28, 2013, 01:02:22 pm

Chink, is there any reason why you're not using your vote? The vote is town's weapon, without it they cannot pressure and lynch scum.

NQT: I wouldn't target you or Nerjin, because ICs can still talk after death. I'd probably go for Powder Miner, assuming he isn't scum, because he seems competent. As for why I haven't voted yet, I'm biding my time until I see someone I really want to put pressure on. I may as well use it now, though.
IG: You do realize that saying I'm town or scum means nothing, right? Everybody in this game can only be town or scum.
Dave:  Have I investigated any of them already, and have I made made any of those investigations public? I can't answer the question to the best of my ability until I know that.
Powder Miner: Who do you think are the scum, and why?

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day One - A Cunning Plan
Post by: Griffionday on July 28, 2013, 01:42:38 pm

NQT:

It's been a while since I've seen it be used, but is the different font your IC voice?  If so could you do something to differentiate it a bit more as it's a bit difficult for me to tell the difference at a glance.

---

Griffinpup:

Quote from: griffinpup on July 28, 2013, 12:38:06 pm

Ya, I have reads.
Dave is stupid, and is either super stupid, or panicking scum.  Without answers to my questions, and what looks like an OMGUS and bandwagon vote in an attempt to save himself, he looks decidedly scummy.  This could merely be extreme newbiness, but I doubt it.
And since he doesn't answer my questions, onto prime target number two.
Gun:
Your predecessor pursued the issue of my voting without substance significantly, and then immediately dropped it and moved on.  What's your opinion on the subject?  Do you know why he left the issue so abruptly?

That's A read.  Do you have opinions of the more skilled players yet?

Why do you need to know what precisely IG meant by his reads?  Are you planning on using them in any way, shape, or form?

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day One - A Cunning Plan
Post by: griffinpup on July 28, 2013, 01:54:30 pm

Quote from: Griffionday on July 28, 2013, 01:42:38 pm

Griffinpup:

Quote from: griffinpup on July 28, 2013, 12:38:06 pm

Ya, I have reads.
Dave is stupid, and is either super stupid, or panicking scum.  Without answers to my questions, and what looks like an OMGUS and bandwagon vote in an attempt to save himself, he looks decidedly scummy.  This could merely be extreme newbiness, but I doubt it.
And since he doesn't answer my questions, onto prime target number two.
Gun:
Your predecessor pursued the issue of my voting without substance significantly, and then immediately dropped it and moved on.  What's your opinion on the subject?  Do you know why he left the issue so abruptly?

That's A read.  Do you have opinions of the more skilled players yet?

Yes.  For example, I'm one hundred percent sure you're either town or scum, and Nerjin is town, leaning scum.  :D

But for reals, all of my other reads are vague and without substance.  I consider spouting emotional reads useless and a waste of time, so I only wrote down the one that I had substance of.

Quote from: Griffionday on July 28, 2013, 01:42:38 pm

1. Why do you need to know what precisely IG meant by his reads? 
2. Are you planning on using them in any way, shape, or form?

1. I don't.
2. Perhaps.  They may prove useful as comparisons later in the game.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day One - A Cunning Plan
Post by: notquitethere on July 28, 2013, 02:33:40 pm

Nerjin, I note that your first and only vote has been on DaveTheGrave. Do you think your first instinct was good and do you think you've adequately pressured other players?

Griffionday

Quote from: Griffionday on July 28, 2013, 01:42:38 pm

It's been a while since I've seen it be used, but is the different font your IC voice?  If so could you do something to differentiate it a bit more as it's a bit difficult for me to tell the difference at a glance.

Yes:

Quote from: notquitethere on July 24, 2013, 06:22:14 pm

I am an IC in this game. Sometimes I may offer gameplay advice, in general or to specific players. I will try to keep my advice uncontroversial and in a different font. If you want to ask me a gameplay related question I'll answer to the best of my knowledge. I am also a player in this game so I will also be trying to win, but I will endeavour never to deceive when using my IC-voice.

I chose 'courier' because it was readable and clearly a different font, but I'll take on board what you're saying and further differentiate my IC-voice. Is the following okay or a bit overboard?

Everyone
It's about 34 hours until the deadline. By now we should be honing our reads and taking responsibility for the upcoming lynch.

The current lynch candidate by two points is DaveTheGrave. His main 'scum-tells' have been to act very defensively, not responding to questions and to vote without any accompanying reason or question. He has since answered some questions and given a handful of reads of other players.  By the time Day 1 ends, each of us will have to weigh up whether his behaviour is more scummy than anyone other player. Are these conceivably the actions of a town or a scum player? This means continuing pressuring and questioning other players and following up when they give lousy responses.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day One - A Cunning Plan - Replacement Needed
Post by: DaveTheGrave on July 28, 2013, 02:36:40 pm

Quote from: Chink on July 28, 2013, 01:38:24 pm

Dave:  Have I investigated any of them already, and have I made made any of those investigations public? I can't answer the question to the best of my ability until I know that.

You've investigated one of them, and they are confirmed not scum, but youre not sure if theres only 1 scum left, or 2

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day One - A Cunning Plan
Post by: Imperial Guardsman on July 28, 2013, 02:37:30 pm

I am honestly contemplating lynching myself if he turns cop or JK

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day One - A Cunning Plan - Replacement Needed
Post by: griffinpup on July 28, 2013, 02:40:42 pm

Quote from: DaveTheGrave on July 28, 2013, 02:36:40 pm

Quote from: Chink on July 28, 2013, 01:38:24 pm

Dave:  Have I investigated any of them already, and have I made made any of those investigations public? I can't answer the question to the best of my ability until I know that.

You've investigated one of them, and they are confirmed not scum, but youre not sure if theres only 1 scum left, or 2

you realize that that's not actually possible, right? You always know the number of scum.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day One - A Cunning Plan
Post by: Griffionday on July 28, 2013, 02:47:52 pm

Quote from: notquitethere on July 28, 2013, 02:33:40 pm

Griffionday

Quote from: Griffionday on July 28, 2013, 01:42:38 pm

It's been a while since I've seen it be used, but is the different font your IC voice?  If so could you do something to differentiate it a bit more as it's a bit difficult for me to tell the difference at a glance.

Yes:

Quote from: notquitethere on July 24, 2013, 06:22:14 pm

I am an IC in this game. Sometimes I may offer gameplay advice, in general or to specific players. I will try to keep my advice uncontroversial and in a different font. If you want to ask me a gameplay related question I'll answer to the best of my knowledge. I am also a player in this game so I will also be trying to win, but I will endeavour never to deceive when using my IC-voice.

I chose 'courier' because it was readable and clearly a different font, but I'll take on board what you're saying and further differentiate my IC-voice. Is the following okay or a bit overboard?

Everyone
It's about 34 hours until the deadline. By now we should be honing our reads and taking responsibility for the upcoming lynch.

Navy is difficult to read in the darkling colour scheme.  Possibly italicised instead?  (Font size changed to 9pt).

Quote

It's about 34 hours until the deadline. By now we should be honing our reads and taking responsibility for the upcoming lynch.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day One - A Cunning Plan
Post by: notquitethere on July 28, 2013, 03:05:23 pm

Griffionday

Quote from: Griffionday on July 28, 2013, 02:47:52 pm

Navy is difficult to read in the darkling colour scheme.  Possibly italicised instead?  (Font size changed to 9pt).

Yeah, it's difficult to find a colour that works with both schemes (I use the forum defaults). I wanted to avoid italicising as I find large chunks of italicised text difficult to read. I think 12pt, courier in teal should be clear in both schemes.

Imperial Guardsman

Quote from: Imperial Guardsman on July 28, 2013, 02:37:30 pm

I am honestly contemplating lynching myself if he turns cop or JK

Self-lynching if you're town is always an anti-town move. Don't even consider it.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day One - A Cunning Plan
Post by: Griffionday on July 28, 2013, 03:26:53 pm

Quote from: notquitethere on July 28, 2013, 03:05:23 pm

Griffionday

Quote from: Griffionday on July 28, 2013, 02:47:52 pm

Navy is difficult to read in the darkling colour scheme.  Possibly italicised instead?  (Font size changed to 9pt).

Yeah, it's difficult to find a colour that works with both schemes (I use the forum defaults). I wanted to avoid italicising as I find large chunks of italicised text difficult to read. I think 12pt, courier in teal should be clear in both schemes.

It's clear enough, thanks.

Quote from: notquitethere on July 28, 2013, 03:05:23 pm

Imperial Guardsman

Quote from: Imperial Guardsman on July 28, 2013, 02:37:30 pm

I am honestly contemplating lynching myself if he turns cop or JK

Self-lynching if you're town is always an anti-town move. Don't even consider it.

On the other hand; if you are scum, feel free to self-lynch.  ((Don't actually, the scum claims in magic mafia are stupid enough without it seeping into the BMs.))

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day One - A Cunning Plan
Post by: Griffionday on July 28, 2013, 03:27:24 pm

Bah, meant Toon Mafia.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day One - A Cunning Plan
Post by: Imperial Guardsman on July 28, 2013, 03:41:58 pm

Lets get off of that comment, shall we?
Okay, so far
Dave is absolutely screwed unless a miracle happens
We have someone new to mafia
NQT is using teal 4noraisin
And thats all.
Its still RVS.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day One - A Cunning Plan
Post by: Griffionday on July 28, 2013, 04:32:03 pm

Quote from: Imperial Guardsman on July 28, 2013, 03:41:58 pm

Lets get off of that comment, shall we?
Okay, so far
Dave is absolutely screwed unless a miracle happens
We have someone new to mafia
NQT is using teal 4noraisin
And thats all.
Its still RVS.

Saying that makes me less likely to move off of that comment.
Can you discribe the miracle that could happen and cause him to be less screwed, and if so who would you shift your vote too?
We do.  Actually we have a few.  How are you planing on getting a read on them?
Actually a very good reason.  That's his IC voice, where we can assume he's telling the complete truth and nothing but the truth, not that this means we should be extra suspicious of anything around the IC voice that ISN'T in the voice as it can be lies.
So you plan on lynching someone you voted for randomly?  That's a horrible policy.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day One - A Cunning Plan
Post by: Imperial Guardsman on July 28, 2013, 04:36:27 pm

Quote from: Griffionday on July 28, 2013, 04:32:03 pm

Quote from: Imperial Guardsman on July 28, 2013, 03:41:58 pm

Lets get off of that comment, shall we?
Okay, so far
Dave is absolutely screwed unless a miracle happens
We have someone new to mafia
NQT is using teal 4noraisin
And thats all.
Its still RVS.

Saying that makes me less likely to move off of that comment.
Can you discribe the miracle that could happen and cause him to be less screwed, and if so who would you shift your vote too?
We do.  Actually we have a few.  How are you planing on getting a read on them?
Actually a very good reason.  That's his IC voice, where we can assume he's telling the complete truth and nothing but the truth, not that this means we should be extra suspicious of anything around the IC voice that ISN'T in the voice as it can be lies.
So you plan on lynching someone you voted for randomly?  That's a horrible policy.

I didnt know that was his IC voice, i thought the small italics seperated from the rest of the post with a lien was IC.
And the miracle would be someone somehow acting MORE scummy or being a troll and claiming scum.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day One - A Cunning Plan
Post by: Griffionday on July 28, 2013, 04:42:13 pm

Quote from: Imperial Guardsman on July 28, 2013, 04:36:27 pm

I didnt know that was his IC voice, i thought the small italics seperated from the rest of the post with a lien was IC.
And the miracle would be someone somehow acting MORE scummy or being a troll and claiming scum.

Ah, that sort of miracle.  Yeah, that would do it.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day One - A Cunning Plan
Post by: griffinpup on July 28, 2013, 05:07:25 pm

Griffionday:
Again, why am I still being voted by you?  And since this isn't your first time, why are you using this particular voting pattern?

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day One - A Cunning Plan
Post by: Griffionday on July 28, 2013, 05:44:06 pm

Griffinpup:

Quote from: griffinpup on July 28, 2013, 05:07:25 pm

Griffionday:
Again, why am I still being voted by you?  And since this isn't your first time, why are you using this particular voting pattern?

I'm unsure as to what one would gain from utilizing a pattern for their votes; care to explain?  Would this be a meta for RVS votes? 

The first time it was a random vote.

The second time... I dislike the fact that you seem to be stockpiling cases against people.  You are also asking for people to put in effort where you're not gaining anything, which is indicative that you are trying to make a presence in the game.  If you don't gain anything from someone's reads why are you asking for them?

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day One - A Cunning Plan
Post by: Imperial Guardsman on July 28, 2013, 05:47:03 pm

Alright, i think this is enough for a day one.
Shorten.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day One - A Cunning Plan - Replacement Needed
Post by: Chink on July 28, 2013, 05:53:34 pm

Quote from: griffinpup on July 28, 2013, 02:40:42 pm

Quote from: DaveTheGrave on July 28, 2013, 02:36:40 pm

Quote from: Chink on July 28, 2013, 01:38:24 pm

Dave:  Have I investigated any of them already, and have I made made any of those investigations public? I can't answer the question to the best of my ability until I know that.

You've investigated one of them, and they are confirmed not scum, but youre not sure if theres only 1 scum left, or 2

you realize that that's not actually possible, right? You always know the number of scum.

This. Number of scum is always known because a player's alignment is announced at death. If there was one left, I would investigate whoever seemed to be defending him from being lynched, and if there were two, I would pick the scummiest player whose alignment I didn't know.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day One - A Cunning Plan
Post by: griffinpup on July 28, 2013, 06:19:38 pm

Quote from: Griffionday on July 28, 2013, 05:44:06 pm

The second time... I dislike the fact that you seem to be stockpiling cases against people.  You are also asking for people to put in effort where you're not gaining anything, which is indicative that you are trying to make a presence in the game.  If you don't gain anything from someone's reads why are you asking for them?

Stop putting words in my mouth!  I never said that I had nothing to gain from someone's reads!  In fact, I never even asked for the reads in the first place.  I prodded at the confusing wordings of the reads, and that's it.
But to answer your first sentence.  Explain what you mean.  What "cases" would I be stockpiling, and why is that scummy?
And to your second sentence, find me a REAL example of when I asked people to put forth effort when I'm not gaining anything.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day One - A Cunning Plan
Post by: DaveTheGrave on July 28, 2013, 06:41:30 pm

A note towards imperial. Though he has yet to accuse me of being scum, he still sees it fit to vote for me. Obviously he has no reason to vote for anyone because...HE IS THE SCUM. Dun dun dun....

Unvote griffin, vote Imperial

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day One - A Cunning Plan
Post by: griffinpup on July 28, 2013, 06:55:51 pm

GriffDay:
Also, why didn't you raise these concerns when you voted me?  You asked me questions, I answered them, and then you posted multiple times without anything addressed to me.  Eventually I asked you why your vote was still on me, and you pull out multiple reasons that you had never even mentioned before.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day One - A Cunning Plan
Post by: Imperial Guardsman on July 28, 2013, 07:05:37 pm

Quote from: DaveTheGrave on July 28, 2013, 06:41:30 pm

A note towards imperial. Though he has yet to accuse me of being scum, he still sees it fit to vote for me. Obviously he has no reason to vote for anyone because...HE IS THE SCUM. Dun dun dun....

Unvote griffin, vote Imperial

I no longer have any reason to take you seriously.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day One - A Cunning Plan
Post by: Imperial Guardsman on July 28, 2013, 08:34:48 pm

Quote from: DaveTheGrave on July 28, 2013, 06:41:30 pm

A note towards imperial. Though he has yet to accuse me of being scum, he still sees it fit to vote for me. Obviously he has no reason to vote for anyone because...HE IS THE SCUM. Dun dun dun....

Unvote griffin, vote Imperial

Also, I declare you scum. Terrible scum.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day One - A Cunning Plan
Post by: DaveTheGrave on July 28, 2013, 08:43:26 pm

Quote from: Imperial Guardsman on July 28, 2013, 08:34:48 pm

Quote from: DaveTheGrave on July 28, 2013, 06:41:30 pm

A note towards imperial. Though he has yet to accuse me of being scum, he still sees it fit to vote for me. Obviously he has no reason to vote for anyone because...HE IS THE SCUM. Dun dun dun....

Unvote griffin, vote Imperial

Also, I declare you scum. Terrible scum.

Under what grounds/evidence do ou declare me scum? Or are you just saying "He's scum" to cover your ass?

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day One - A Cunning Plan
Post by: Imperial Guardsman on July 28, 2013, 08:47:36 pm

You are either scum or absolute crap.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day One - A Cunning Plan
Post by: griffinpup on July 28, 2013, 08:51:17 pm

Quote from: Imperial Guardsman on July 28, 2013, 08:47:36 pm

You are either scum or absolute crap.

IG:
Why? I want a concerted case on Dave from you.  You keep saying that he's either a VI or scum, and I'm obviously inclined to agree with you, but please quote any posts that tipped you off and tell me why they did so.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day One - A Cunning Plan
Post by: Imperial Guardsman on July 28, 2013, 09:15:18 pm

He dodged several questions after the game began, is only reacting to me voting him, and is only condemning himself.
He screwed up and tried to build a case against me.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day One - A Cunning Plan
Post by: DaveTheGrave on July 28, 2013, 09:34:16 pm

Quote from: Imperial Guardsman on July 28, 2013, 09:15:18 pm

He dodged several questions after the game began, is only reacting to me voting him, and is only condemning himself.
He screwed up and tried to build a case against me.

Ididnt dodge any questions. You simply cant find evidence.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day One - A Cunning Plan
Post by: griffinpup on July 28, 2013, 09:36:08 pm

Quote from: DaveTheGrave on July 28, 2013, 09:34:16 pm

Quote from: Imperial Guardsman on July 28, 2013, 09:15:18 pm

He dodged several questions after the game began, is only reacting to me voting him, and is only condemning himself.
He screwed up and tried to build a case against me.

Ididnt dodge any questions. You simply cant find evidence.

HAHAHAHAHA!
HAHAHAHAHA!
I literally laughed when I read this.
DAVE:
YOU STILL HAVEN'T ANSWERED MY QUESTIONS.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day One - A Cunning Plan
Post by: DaveTheGrave on July 28, 2013, 09:36:49 pm

Quote from: Imperial Guardsman on July 28, 2013, 09:15:18 pm

He dodged several questions after the game began, is only reacting to me voting him, and is only condemning himself.
He screwed up and tried to build a case against me.

On a second note, I voted for you before you voted for me. So how does that make sense?

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day One - A Cunning Plan
Post by: DaveTheGrave on July 28, 2013, 09:37:27 pm

Quote from: griffinpup on July 28, 2013, 09:36:08 pm

Quote from: DaveTheGrave on July 28, 2013, 09:34:16 pm

Quote from: Imperial Guardsman on July 28, 2013, 09:15:18 pm

He dodged several questions after the game began, is only reacting to me voting him, and is only condemning himself.
He screwed up and tried to build a case against me.

Ididnt dodge any questions. You simply cant find evidence.

HAHAHAHAHA!
HAHAHAHAHA!
I literally laughed when I read this.
DAVE:
YOU STILL HAVEN'T ANSWERED MY QUESTIONS.

What questions? I will re-skim the topic for them, happy? jeez.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day One - A Cunning Plan
Post by: Okami No Rei on July 28, 2013, 11:31:29 pm

Day 1 ends on Monday, July 29 at 8:00pm CST

20 Hours Remain in the Day

GUNINANRUNIN (0) -
griffinpup (1) - Griffionday
Griffionday (0) -
Powder Miner (1) - Chink
Imperial Guardsman (1) - DaveTheGrave
DaveTheGrave (4) - Nerjin, Imperial Guardsman, griffinpup, Powder Miner
Chink (0) -
Nerjin (1) - notquitethere
notquitethere (0) -

Not Voting - GUNINANRUNIN

Extend (0/4) -
Shorten (-1/5) -!Nerjin, !griffinpup, Imperial Guardsman

Lurker Tracker (http://www.ocf.berkeley.edu/~azhou/projects/LT/zt.py?topic=127764&start=138&msg=0&numreplace=2&replaced0=Boy&replacer0=Chink&replaced1=TheWetSheep&replacer1=GUNINANRUNIN&numlabel=2&player0=mastahcheese&label0=np&player1=zombie%20urist&label1=np)

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day One - A Cunning Plan
Post by: Chink on July 28, 2013, 11:41:47 pm

Nerjin: Which players do you think are the scum, and why?

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day One - A Cunning Plan - Replacement Needed
Post by: Nerjin on July 29, 2013, 12:57:59 am

Quote from: notquitethere on July 28, 2013, 06:19:20 am

Quote from: Imperial Guardsman on July 26, 2013, 07:31:45 pm

NQT, because of how he frequently gets power roles/third party.

Ah, you believe in a sort of cosmic luck. It is true that in life I am the third-party, a loose cannon spouting loose canon; a maverick 90 degrees askew from the rest of civilisation. But really, there are probably better reasons to rolecop someone.

DUDE! You are an IC! YOU CANNOT DO THIS! If you are going to give advice you need to GIVE advice. Come on man. You're better than this.

Quote from: notquitethere on July 28, 2013, 02:33:40 pm

Nerjin, I note that your first and only vote has been on DaveTheGrave. Do you think your first instinct was good and do you think you've adequately pressured other players?

[. . .]

The current lynch candidate by two points is DaveTheGrave. His main 'scum-tells' have been to act very defensively, not responding to questions and to vote without any accompanying reason or question. He has since answered some questions and given a handful of reads of other players.  By the time Day 1 ends, each of us will have to weigh up whether his behaviour is more scummy than anyone other player. Are these conceivably the actions of a town or a scum player? This means continuing pressuring and questioning other players and following up when they give lousy responses.

Yes I feel that my read is accurate. He has not given a proper case on any of his suspects. While I'm sure he's trying [it's hard the first time] I feel that it isn't up to par with what we should expect as players. His reads have been along the lines of "I feel X is scum." with no real reasoning behind it and his reads are rather vague at best anyways. Also asking questions at this point doesn't really help. We are out of the RVS stage. The RVS stage generally ends when players have begun forming decent reads and start pressuring specific players with things that they have already said and NOT with what they plan to do later on. Plus there's the fact that he bandwagoned so... Yeah I feel confident in my vote.

I must ask: You are aware that you can question a player without switching your vote to them right? It's easy. Just ask the question. Don't red there name. I'm not sure if you knew this. We're getting close to day-end so why don't you vote for the person you feel is scummiest instead of tossing your vote at me for "pressure" that doesn't really need applied.

---

Quote from: DaveTheGrave on July 28, 2013, 01:18:55 pm

Imperial: Your scum, its N2, and you think youve killed the cop. Whats your next step?
Chink: You are a cop, its N3, theres four people left. All of which are showing signs of aggression towards you. How do you proceed?

[. . .]

My suspicions are that Imperial and Griffin are scum buddies, since I'm probably going to be lynched anyway, I thought Id put that out there.

When you are NK'ed your role is revealed the start of the next day.

Also your reads need to be more than that: WHY do you think they are scum-buddies?

Quote from: DaveTheGrave on July 28, 2013, 06:41:30 pm

A note towards imperial. Though he has yet to accuse me of being scum, he still sees it fit to vote for me. Obviously he has no reason to vote for anyone because...HE IS THE SCUM. Dun dun dun....

Unvote griffin, vote Imperial

Not enough of a reason. OMGUSing doesn't help us at this point. Please state more as to why he is scum. Aside from that I'm pretty sure that he thinks you're scum because he's said it.

Quote from: DaveTheGrave on July 28, 2013, 09:36:49 pm

Quote from: Imperial Guardsman on July 28, 2013, 09:15:18 pm

He dodged several questions after the game began, is only reacting to me voting him, and is only condemning himself.
He screwed up and tried to build a case against me.

On a second note, I voted for you before you voted for me. So how does that make sense?

Are... Are you... YOU LITERALLY ADMIT THIS? You never admit to an OMGUS! You also never OMGUS at all! Alright Dave, I'm pretty sure you're scum. Whether you are or aren't I want you to try again in the next BM okay? You have potential. I can see that BUT YOU NEED PRACTICE! Read some of the "Great Games" of the forum and try to learn from them. Okay?

---

Quote from: Chink on July 28, 2013, 11:41:47 pm

Nerjin: Which players do you think are the scum, and why?

Well for now I only see one. DaveTheGrave.

He's avoided questions, OMGUSed, bandwagoned, and has not voice any of his 'cases' very well. A player should NEVER have to be reminded as many times as he has to answer questions. Especially when they are directly quoted back at him. He is either scum or poor town. Again I hate to be rude. I hope he tries again in the next BM as I think he will learn a lot from another go. But for now he's a liability at best and scum at worst. He needs to be eliminated. Sink-or-Swim style teaching needs to being.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day One - A Cunning Plan - Replacement Needed
Post by: notquitethere on July 29, 2013, 02:31:12 am

Nerjin

Quote from: Nerjin on July 29, 2013, 12:57:59 am

DUDE! You are an IC! YOU CANNOT DO THIS! If you are going to give advice you need to GIVE advice. Come on man. You're better than this.

I appreciate the concern, and usually I'd agree but in this instance I don't think it's my job to give scum advice. If Imp really is a rolecop he can ask the scum-IC Deathsword for advice on good rolecop scumplay. Do you disagree?

Quote from: Nerjin on July 29, 2013, 12:57:59 am

Yes I feel that my read is accurate. He has not given a proper case on any of his suspects. While I'm sure he's trying [it's hard the first time] I feel that it isn't up to par with what we should expect as players. His reads have been along the lines of "I feel X is scum." with no real reasoning behind it and his reads are rather vague at best anyways. Also asking questions at this point doesn't really help. We are out of the RVS stage. The RVS stage generally ends when players have begun forming decent reads and start pressuring specific players with things that they have already said and NOT with what they plan to do later on. Plus there's the fact that he bandwagoned so... Yeah I feel confident in my vote.

A typical scumtrick is to place your vote early and not shift it. I just wanted to hear that you have good reasons. I didn't mean to suggest that we should be asking 'random' questions, but rather we should be prodding other players on their gameplay, what they've said and done. I've just looked back at your play and seen that, yes, you have followed up on Dave. Still, I'm legitimately unsure whether this has been righteous scumhunting or inflating newbie mistakes.

Quote from: Nerjin on July 29, 2013, 12:57:59 am

I must ask: You are aware that you can question a player without switching your vote to them right? It's easy. Just ask the question. Don't red there name. I'm not sure if you knew this. We're getting close to day-end so why don't you vote for the person you feel is scummiest instead of tossing your vote at me for "pressure" that doesn't really need applied.

Yes of course. Most questions I've asked players hasn't been alongside a pressure vote. My vote signifies that I'm concerned about an aspect of player's play and if they don't give a good reason for it then the vote is going to stay. It's up to me to decide whether pressure needs to be applied.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day One - A Cunning Plan - Replacement Needed
Post by: DaveTheGrave on July 29, 2013, 07:32:09 am

Quote from: Nerjin on July 29, 2013, 12:57:59 am

Are... Are you... YOU LITERALLY ADMIT THIS? You never admit to an OMGUS! You also never OMGUS at all! Alright Dave, I'm pretty sure you're scum. Whether you are or aren't I want you to try again in the next BM okay? You have potential. I can see that BUT YOU NEED PRACTICE! Read some of the "Great Games" of the forum and try to learn from them. Okay?

---

Everyone guesses in the beginning stage. Griffins first post when the game started was: Boy, OMGUS.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day One - A Cunning Plan - Replacement Needed
Post by: Nerjin on July 29, 2013, 11:05:56 am

Quote from: notquitethere on July 29, 2013, 02:31:12 am

Nerjin

Quote from: Nerjin on July 29, 2013, 12:57:59 am

DUDE! You are an IC! YOU CANNOT DO THIS! If you are going to give advice you need to GIVE advice. Come on man. You're better than this.

I appreciate the concern, and usually I'd agree but in this instance I don't think it's my job to give scum advice. If Imp really is a rolecop he can ask the scum-IC Deathsword for advice on good rolecop scumplay. Do you disagree?

OF COURSE I disagree! You are an IC! It doesn't matter WHAT his alignment is you are supposed to teach him you twit. Jesus dude! What the hell? You signed up to teach: TEACH! Scum, Town, third party, just reading the forum for fun, it doesn't matter! Do not pull this again NQT. Do your damn job.

Quote from: DaveTheGrave on July 29, 2013, 07:32:09 am

Quote from: Nerjin on July 29, 2013, 12:57:59 am

Are... Are you... YOU LITERALLY ADMIT THIS? You never admit to an OMGUS! You also never OMGUS at all! Alright Dave, I'm pretty sure you're scum. Whether you are or aren't I want you to try again in the next BM okay? You have potential. I can see that BUT YOU NEED PRACTICE! Read some of the "Great Games" of the forum and try to learn from them. Okay?

---

Everyone guesses in the beginning stage. Griffins first post when the game started was: Boy, OMGUS.

Not quite. Boy hadn't voted GriffPup. Furthermore his was the very first post in the game so it was likely just an entirely random vote as a joke. What you did was say "He voted me so I'll vote him." THAT is an OMGUS and that is also very scummy. Furthermore he did it at the very start of the game while you did it much closer to lynch time. Timing has a lot to do with it. The game stops being early stages quite soon after the RVS stage ends.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day One - A Cunning Plan
Post by: Imperial Guardsman on July 29, 2013, 11:10:01 am

Stop arguing.
You both are in the wrong.
Just focus on the game at hand.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day One - A Cunning Plan - Replacement Needed
Post by: Teneb on July 29, 2013, 11:17:21 am

Quote from: Nerjin on July 29, 2013, 11:05:56 am

Quote from: notquitethere on July 29, 2013, 02:31:12 am

Nerjin

Quote from: Nerjin on July 29, 2013, 12:57:59 am

DUDE! You are an IC! YOU CANNOT DO THIS! If you are going to give advice you need to GIVE advice. Come on man. You're better than this.

I appreciate the concern, and usually I'd agree but in this instance I don't think it's my job to give scum advice. If Imp really is a rolecop he can ask the scum-IC Deathsword for advice on good rolecop scumplay. Do you disagree?

OF COURSE I disagree! You are an IC! It doesn't matter WHAT his alignment is you are supposed to teach him you twit. Jesus dude! What the hell? You signed up to teach: TEACH! Scum, Town, third party, just reading the forum for fun, it doesn't matter! Do not pull this again NQT. Do your damn job.

I feel I must intervene. NQT, you can't be 100% sure who is scum and who is not. Only I, the mod, the spoilspecs, and the scum team can be know for sure. And even if a player says "hey, I am scum" you are still obligated as an IC to teach them. Being an IC means you must give advice and teach, EVEN IF THAT GOES AGAINST YOUR WINCON. Refusing to give advice as an IC is terrible play and against the idea of BMs themselves.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day One - A Cunning Plan - Replacement Needed
Post by: notquitethere on July 29, 2013, 11:47:28 am

Nerjin, Deathsword

Quote from: Deathsword on July 29, 2013, 11:17:21 am

Quote from: Nerjin on July 29, 2013, 11:05:56 am

Quote from: notquitethere on July 29, 2013, 02:31:12 am

Nerjin

Quote from: Nerjin on July 29, 2013, 12:57:59 am

DUDE! You are an IC! YOU CANNOT DO THIS! If you are going to give advice you need to GIVE advice. Come on man. You're better than this.

I appreciate the concern, and usually I'd agree but in this instance I don't think it's my job to give scum advice. If Imp really is a rolecop he can ask the scum-IC Deathsword for advice on good rolecop scumplay. Do you disagree?

OF COURSE I disagree! You are an IC! It doesn't matter WHAT his alignment is you are supposed to teach him you twit. Jesus dude! What the hell? You signed up to teach: TEACH! Scum, Town, third party, just reading the forum for fun, it doesn't matter! Do not pull this again NQT. Do your damn job.

I feel I must intervene. NQT, you can't be 100% sure who is scum and who is not. Only I, the mod, the spoilspecs, and the scum team can be know for sure. And even if a player says "hey, I am scum" you are still obligated as an IC to teach them. Being an IC means you must give advice and teach, EVEN IF THAT GOES AGAINST YOUR WINCON. Refusing to give advice as an IC is terrible play and against the idea of BMs themselves.

I can't help but feel we're talking at cross purposes here and I can see how what I said might have been ambiguous. I meant 'scum-advice' not 'advice to scum': I wasn't not advising Imp because I thought he was scum. Or, to put it another way, I wasn't calling Imp scum and then refusing to teach him; I was saying I didn't think it was my job to give scum-specific advice. Do you see that? I just didn't think it was in my remit to teach everyone good scumplay. I thought that was the scum IC's job. But, if you guys disagree that's fine. Just a misunderstanding. I'd appreciate it if you didn't take an aggravated tone-- that makes me not want to play here at all.

Okay...

Imperial Guardsman
Rolecopping based on a player's previous chances of getting roles isn't a particularly reliable method. As it's done randomly, I've as much chance of getting a role as anyone else. A much more reliable method of choosing who to rolecop is to look at those town-players that are most engaged prodding people and asking questions: they're the ones that are most likely to be cops or jailers weighing up who to night-target. Obviously don't pick anyone that your scumbuddy is night-killing. At this stage we don't have much information so there's not so much harm in choosing randomly or based on something arbitrary like past-prevalence of having a role. However in later days you'll want to target players that make strong moves and sudden accusations against scum at the beginning of a day: they're most likely to be the players who found something out in the night.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day One - A Cunning Plan - Replacement Needed
Post by: notquitethere on July 29, 2013, 11:48:41 am

Nerjin, Deathsword

Quote from: Deathsword on July 29, 2013, 11:17:21 am

Quote from: Nerjin on July 29, 2013, 11:05:56 am

Quote from: notquitethere on July 29, 2013, 02:31:12 am

Nerjin

Quote from: Nerjin on July 29, 2013, 12:57:59 am

DUDE! You are an IC! YOU CANNOT DO THIS! If you are going to give advice you need to GIVE advice. Come on man. You're better than this.

I appreciate the concern, and usually I'd agree but in this instance I don't think it's my job to give scum advice. If Imp really is a rolecop he can ask the scum-IC Deathsword for advice on good rolecop scumplay. Do you disagree?

OF COURSE I disagree! You are an IC! It doesn't matter WHAT his alignment is you are supposed to teach him you twit. Jesus dude! What the hell? You signed up to teach: TEACH! Scum, Town, third party, just reading the forum for fun, it doesn't matter! Do not pull this again NQT. Do your damn job.

I feel I must intervene. NQT, you can't be 100% sure who is scum and who is not. Only I, the mod, the spoilspecs, and the scum team can be know for sure. And even if a player says "hey, I am scum" you are still obligated as an IC to teach them. Being an IC means you must give advice and teach, EVEN IF THAT GOES AGAINST YOUR WINCON. Refusing to give advice as an IC is terrible play and against the idea of BMs themselves.

I can't help but feel we're talking at cross purposes here and I can see how what I said might have been ambiguous. I meant 'scum-advice' not 'advice to scum': I wasn't not advising Imp because I thought he was scum. Or, to put it another way, I wasn't calling Imp scum and then refusing to teach him; I was saying I didn't think it was my job to give scum-specific advice. Do you see that? I just didn't think it was in my remit to teach everyone good scumplay. I thought that was the scum IC's job. But, if you guys disagree that's fine. Just a misunderstanding. I'd appreciate it if you didn't take an aggravated tone-- that makes me not want to play here at all.

Okay...

Imperial Guardsman
Rolecopping based on a player's previous chances of getting roles isn't a particularly reliable method. As it's done randomly, I've as much chance of getting a role as anyone else. A much more reliable method of choosing who to rolecop is to look at those town-players that are most engaged prodding people and asking questions: they're the ones that are most likely to be cops or jailers weighing up who to night-target. Obviously don't pick anyone that your scumbuddy is night-killing. At this stage we don't have much information so there's not so much harm in choosing randomly or based on something arbitrary like past-prevalence of having a role. However in later days you'll want to target players that make strong moves and sudden accusations against scum at the beginning of a day: they're most likely to be the players who found something out in the night.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day One - A Cunning Plan
Post by: Okami No Rei on July 29, 2013, 12:07:39 pm

PFP - 2 Hours remaining in Day One.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day One - A Cunning Plan
Post by: griffinpup on July 29, 2013, 06:47:40 pm

Gun: (guninanrunin)
Why do you have time to post 39 times outside this thread today, but haven't managed to find time to answer anyone's questions in this thread?
Consider this an official accusation of lurking.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day One - A Cunning Plan
Post by: Parsely on July 29, 2013, 06:51:35 pm

Well no one's asked me any questions as a matter of fact. And there's plenty of action watching Nerjin and Dave (one-sidedly) slug it out.

Meanwhile you haven't done much except helpfully tell everyone that they're not answering any questions. :P Why the passive aggression? I guess you're feeling pretty cozy with watching someone else get taken down instead of you.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day One - A Cunning Plan
Post by: griffinpup on July 29, 2013, 07:23:44 pm

Quote from: GUNINANRUNIN on July 29, 2013, 06:51:35 pm

Well no one's asked me any questions as a matter of fact.

Wrong Answer.  Try again.

Quote from: griffinpup on July 28, 2013, 12:38:06 pm

Gun:
Your predecessor pursued the issue of my voting without substance significantly, and then immediately dropped it and moved on.  What's your opinion on the subject?  Do you know why he left the issue so abruptly?

Quote from: notquitethere on July 28, 2013, 01:02:22 pm

GUN, welcome to the game. I suggest taking a moment to read through the game (better now before it gets too unwieldy) and making a few notes on the play of each of the players. What's your fresh perspective on everyone?

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day One - A Cunning Plan
Post by: griffinpup on July 29, 2013, 07:26:50 pm

Quote from: GUNINANRUNIN on July 29, 2013, 06:51:35 pm

Meanwhile you haven't done much except helpfully tell everyone that they're not answering any questions. :P Why the passive aggression? I guess you're feeling pretty cozy with watching someone else get taken down instead of you.

I'm currently waiting for people like you to answer my questions.  There's not much else I can do except prod.

Also, I assume that you were planning on finishing this day without posting again.  Why wouldn't you attempt to scumhunt or make a case on someone you think is scummy?  All you've been doing is "watching".  If there's a better example of lurking I haven't seen it.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day One - A Cunning Plan
Post by: Tiruin on July 29, 2013, 07:29:51 pm

Spoiler: Just to note on ICs (click to show/hide)

Quote from: Big Brother on June 27, 2013, 12:20:18 am

The ICs are experienced players on the board who have signed up to help you learn.[...]


The ICs are here solely to teach new players how to play, but remember, they are also players in the game. This means they have the same chance to be scum as any other player and it is entirely possible for one IC or even both ICs to be scum. Regardless of their alignment, they are obligated to provide you with genuine advice, so that even if you don't trust the IC, you can trust the advice they give.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day One - A Cunning Plan
Post by: Parsely on July 29, 2013, 07:41:05 pm

Quote from: griffinpup on July 29, 2013, 07:26:50 pm

I'm currently waiting for people like you to answer my questions.  There's not much else I can do except prod.

Also, I assume that you were planning on finishing this day without posting again.  Why wouldn't you attempt to scumhunt or make a case on someone you think is scummy?  All you've been doing is "watching".  If there's a better example of lurking I haven't seen it.

They must not think much of your accusations then.

I'm making a case right now. I was taking the time to read through the thread and see what sort of effort everyone was putting in, and their stances. The others have been talking, solidifying their leads, and meanwhile you've been sitting back, watching the lynch go down. You sure didn't have much to say about it. Like I said before, you must be pretty relieved that its someone other than you getting the axe.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day One - A Cunning Plan
Post by: notquitethere on July 29, 2013, 07:46:47 pm

GUN

Quote from: GUNINANRUNIN on July 29, 2013, 06:51:35 pm

Well no one's asked me any questions as a matter of fact. And there's plenty of action watching Nerjin and Dave (one-sidedly) slug it out.

There was this:

Quote from: notquitethere on July 28, 2013, 01:02:22 pm

GUN, welcome to the game. I suggest taking a moment to read through the game (better now before it gets too unwieldy) and making a few notes on the play of each of the players. What's your fresh perspective on everyone?

Also, were you going to vote?

---

Spoiler: Tiruin (click to show/hide)

Yes, I know that-- this has been a semantic misunderstanding. The others appear to think that I was refusing to help players that I suspected of being scum(!), I was actually saying that I didn't think the IC's job was to give advice on how players should play a good scum game. I certainly don't recall seeing IC's do this (surely that's the scum-IC's job). Regardless, I gave the advice in the end.

---

Hmm... two hours left. Time for my final vote and reads!

Some of my general impressions of the players:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

GUNINANRUNIN  - not been very proactive, but still very new to the game. Not much to say. Hope to see more of tomorrow.
griffinpup - Aggressive and forthright, but has a patchy record of responding to my questions (perhaps through misplaced meta-spite?)
Griffionday  - Seems pretty reasonable- backed up votes when pushed.
Powder Miner - A fairly rational player, I haven't spotten any obvious scumtells
Imperial Guardsman - Seems a tad over-confident. Scum bluster, or revelling in his growing experience?
DaveTheGrave - Displayed scum-tells like voting without reason, over-paranoia. Could be new player bluster?
TheWetSheep/Chink - A lot of questions, debatable conclusions. If Dave is scum, I'd suspect more.
Nerjin - My read on Nerjin depends entirely on how Dave flips: if he flips town, I'll be pretty suspicious indeed, especially with his borderline-tunneling of Dave

At the end of the day I should place my vote on the player that is the most scummiest. I thought long and hard about this. Dave is top target and there's nothing I can do to stop him being lynched at this stage. My vote only signifies who I find scummy. And I do find Dave scummy, but I also find the way he's been handled and effective plumped for a lynching by Nerjin and Griffpup, especially suspicious. I'll level with you all, I'm also worried if Dave does flip scum then I'll be suspected of unreasonably defending him, but if I do place my vote on him I'll be accused of bussing. This puts me in a poor position right now and these are the kinds of accusations I'll be looking out for Day 2.

Ultimately, you should vote for the person you think should be lynched. Dave has a lot to learn but he is a liability to the town and his death will give us the most information. He has made the most new-player mistakes but has also acted the most scummiest, and I only hope that the latter is just due to the former. For these reasons: DaveTheGrave.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day One - A Cunning Plan
Post by: Okami No Rei on July 29, 2013, 08:00:37 pm

Day One has ended.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day One - A Cunning Plan
Post by: griffinpup on July 29, 2013, 08:00:46 pm

GUN:

Quote from: GUNINANRUNIN on July 29, 2013, 07:41:05 pm

Quote from: griffinpup on July 29, 2013, 07:26:50 pm

I'm currently waiting for people like you to answer my questions.  There's not much else I can do except prod.

Also, I assume that you were planning on finishing this day without posting again.  Why wouldn't you attempt to scumhunt or make a case on someone you think is scummy?  All you've been doing is "watching".  If there's a better example of lurking I haven't seen it.

They must not think much of your accusations then.

I'm making a case right now. I was taking the time to read through the thread and see what sort of effort everyone was putting in, and their stances. The others have been talking, solidifying their leads, and meanwhile you've been sitting back, watching the lynch go down. You sure didn't have much to say about it. Like I said before, you must be pretty relieved that its someone other than you getting the axe.

In case you haven't noticed, the person I'm voting is the current lynch target, and the players that I'm currently have discussions with haven't posted on this thread recently, and therefore haven't answered my question.  Unlike you, most people in this game actually do answer questions when asked.

Quote from: GUNINANRUNIN on July 29, 2013, 07:41:05 pm

I'm making a case right now.

And where's this case?

Quote from: GUNINANRUNIN on July 29, 2013, 07:41:05 pm

and meanwhile you've been sitting back

I assume this is an accusation of lurking?

Quote from: GUNINANRUNIN on July 29, 2013, 07:41:05 pm

You sure didn't have much to say about it.

I'm made my opinion on the current lynch clear in this post and posts like it.  I'd hardly qualify all of my posts on the matter as "not saying much about it"

Quote from: griffinpup on July 28, 2013, 12:38:06 pm

Dave is stupid, and is either super stupid, or panicking scum.  Without answers to my questions, and what looks like an OMGUS and bandwagon vote in an attempt to save himself, he looks decidedly scummy.  This could merely be extreme newbiness, but I doubt it.

And you still haven't explained why you haven't answered anyone's questions.  Or answered them, for that matter.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day One - A Cunning Plan
Post by: DaveTheGrave on July 29, 2013, 08:02:44 pm

The only reason anyone thinks I'm scum is in the beggening I mistook hypothetical, as accusations.

Quote from: DaveTheGrave on July 24, 2013, 08:20:44 pm

Quote from: Imperial Guardsman on July 24, 2013, 08:19:13 pm

DaveTheGrave, You are scum. Who is the night one nightkill?

Dont know, I'm not scum. Odds are whoever is scum is going to play the shit out of this conflict and kill you anyway, so salutations my good man.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day One - A Cunning Plan
Post by: Okami No Rei on July 29, 2013, 08:47:31 pm

Spoiler: First Blood (click to show/hide)

From a hole in the wall, she watched, curious, as the goblins continued their charade of civility.
"I say it him!"
The big one screamed as he leapt to his feet, axe in hand.
"Me?  It no me!  You know me!  I live in tribe all my life.  Me no snitch."
One of the dwarves leaned against the wall, trimming its nails with a dagger, a nasty grin on its face.
"Surely that's just what a snitch would say.  I do believe we've found our culprit.  He certainly has my vote."
A sudden crash sent her deeper into the hole, followed shortly by a thump as goblin flesh hit stone.  She peeked back around the corner to see the second dwarf with frying pan in hand.
"Mine as well.  What say you, gentlemen?  You all heard this traitorous scum as much as admit to his misdeeds.  There can be no question now."
One by one, the others nodded assent, some with a gleam of jealousy in their eyes, one or two with hatred, but most simply followed the group.
"That good."
The second largest goblin took up the unconscious one's axe in hand.
"This one snitch.  We know that now.  He pay with head."
A single stroke, and the sickly sweet stench of goblin blood filled the air.  Her stomach churned.
"We sleep now. You and you go watch gate.  Let us know if bridge not close."

Day One has ended!

FINAL VOTECOUNT

GUNINANRUNIN (0) -
griffinpup (1) - Griffionday
Griffionday (0) -
Powder Miner (1) - Chink
Imperial Guardsman (1) - DaveTheGrave
DaveTheGrave (5) - Nerjin, Imperial Guardsman, griffinpup, Powder Miner, notquitethere
Chink (0) -
Nerjin (0) -
notquitethere (0) -

Not Voting - GUNINANRUNIN

DaveTheGrave has been lynched!

DaveTheGrave was a Goblin Thief (Vanilla Town)

Night One has begun, and will end on Tuesday, July 30 at 8:00pm CST, or when I have received all actions.

Send in your actions.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day Two - Goblin Food
Post by: Okami No Rei on July 30, 2013, 08:07:42 pm

Spoiler: Goblin Food (click to show/hide)

That fool of a goblin had reigned long, but now He was the biggest, and He had The Axe.  To find out, after all this time, that the fool had been a snitch as well, well, that was just honey on the cricket.  His dreams were pleasant, while they lasted.  He awoke to the sound of someone dragging the body outside.  One of the new fellows from that mountain tribe.
"Hey!  Why you do that?  It start to smell nice."
The goblin looked startled for a moment.
"Smell nice?  That horrid stench could kill three elephants."
It finally muscled the body to the door as it spoke.
"Mean it good to eat soon.  You stone gobs know not the taste of dead flesh?"
It opened the door, then fell face-first into the hallway as a cat materialized on the back of its head, pausing only briefly before leaping off into the darkness outside.
"TO THE ABYSS WITH ALL FELINES!"
He watched, bemused, as it clambered to its feet and continued to struggle with the corpse.  The sight made him hungry.  He took up the axe and moved to the doorway, pushing the mountain goblin aside.
"Here.  I show you what to do with dead gob."
Two solid strikes.  one at the elbow, one at the shoulder.  He took up both pieces, and offered the upper arm to the other goblin.
"Here.  Eat.  Is good."
"I'm quite alright, thank you.  Now if you don't mind I think I'll just..."
The goblin's protests died on seeing His face.  Footsteps.  He'd heard footsteps.  He motioned it back inside, flinging the remnants of the body after it.  Couldn't have a dwarven patrol finding it.  He stepped back inside, then closed the door all but a crack.  The footsteps grew louder.
"Just one. I go see. We may eat dwarf this night."
He crept back out into the hallway, keeping to the darkest corners. A figure emerged ahead, and he breathed a sigh of relief, tinged with disappointment, to see one of his own kind.
"Hail! Is gate down yet? I send two of you.  Where is rest of team?"
"Gate still up, boss.  He get bored.  Say he find new gate.  Leave to scout.  Not come back."
The goblin looked down, shuffling his feet.  A hint of anxiety in his voice, he continued.
"I find him on way back.  He have... He have gob sword in back!"
The news hit him like a cave-in.  A goblin-made sword?  But that must mean...
"We go back to room.  You tell the rest.  It look like we have more than one snitch."
He couldn't believe it.  Another traitor?  Well, thanks to those mountain goblins, he now had a foolproof way to find the backstabbing lout.
"Boys!  It time for a new vote.  Tell them what you tell me."

Night One has ended!

notquitethere has been killed!

notquitethere was a Goblin Sergeant (Cop)

Day Two has begun, and will end on Friday, August 2 at 8:00pm CST

GUNINANRUNIN (0) -
griffinpup (0) -
Griffionday (0) -
Powder Miner (0) -
Imperial Guardsman (0) -
Chink (0) -
Nerjin (0) -

Not Voting - GUNINANRUNIN, griffinpup, Griffionday, Powder Miner, Imperial Guardsman, Chink, Nerjin

Extend (0/3) -
Shorten (0/4) -

Lurker Tracker (http://www.ocf.berkeley.edu/~azhou/projects/LT/zt.py?topic=127764&start=138&msg=0&numreplace=2&replaced0=Boy&replacer0=Chink&replaced1=TheWetSheep&replacer1=GUNINANRUNIN&numlabel=2&player0=mastahcheese&label0=np&player1=zombie%20urist&label1=np)

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day Two - Goblin Food
Post by: Nerjin on July 30, 2013, 08:15:55 pm

Well that's not the best thing that coulda happend I will admit. Now what you should do is re-read day one with the knowledge that NQT and DavetheGrave were both scum. Look at who was talking to them and analyze what the two of them said. Then pursue the person that you think had weak cases or was also acting very scummy.

---

More will be said when I have time.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day Two - Goblin Food
Post by: Okami No Rei on July 30, 2013, 08:18:23 pm

Quote from: Nerjin on July 30, 2013, 08:15:55 pm

Well that's not the best thing that coulda happend I will admit. Now what you should do is re-read day one with the knowledge that NQT and DavetheGrave were both town. Look at who was talking to them and analyze what the two of them said. Then pursue the person that you think had weak cases or was also acting very scummy.

---

More will be said when I have time.

FTFY

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day Two - Goblin Food
Post by: Nerjin on July 30, 2013, 08:21:20 pm

*Facepalm* My bad.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day Two - Goblin Food
Post by: Parsely on July 30, 2013, 09:05:48 pm

Pre Night Lock
Sorry for a bad quotes. I wrote this up after the lock at the end of D1.

Quote from: NQT

GUN

Quote

Well no one's asked me any questions as a matter of fact. And there's plenty of action watching Nerjin and Dave (one-sidedly) slug it out.

There was this:

Quote from: NQT

GUN, welcome to the game. I suggest taking a moment to read through the game (better now before it gets too unwieldy) and making a few notes on the play of each of the players. What's your fresh perspective on everyone?

Also, were you going to vote?

To be honest, I wasn't aware that I was IN until after the second to last time update before the end of D1, and once I had realised this I was panicking while trying to catch up on the thread. I got through most of D1, but I haven't read the middle to end parts, which is why I haven't voted yet. Probably should've done that sooner to prevent looking like a lurker, but I didn't want to make any decisions without having all the facts first.

Spoiler: Opinions Based on Cursory Review of D1 (click to show/hide)

griffinpup - quick to press and accuse and slow to answer questions. has a habit of poking others for questions incessantly. seems to harbour a lot of meta-grudgery
Griffionday - reserved, but when he speaks up he makes it count
Powder Miner - same as Griffionday
Imperial Guardsman - 2nd or 3rd game? like Dave the Grave but less scummy
DaveTheGrave - a really bad townie imho based on what I've seen, which is why i didn't vote for him yet. not defensive enough to be scum, but suspicious, and a liability nonetheless.
Chink - aggressive, but struggles to get his points across.
Nerjin - mildly suspicious. he fought pretty hard just to get what looks like a bad townie to go down, but everyone had a good reason for Dave to get cut out. similar to griffinpup but actually backs himself up
NQT - compare to Griffionday, but much more vocal. gets a lot of opposition, likely because he's IC, and thus experienced, and thus dangerous. no concrete scumtell as of yet, and I have little suspicions of him :L

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day Two - Goblin Food
Post by: Okami No Rei on July 30, 2013, 10:49:55 pm

GUNINANRUNIN - Editing posts is not permitted under any circumstances.  If you need to fix a post it is acceptable, during the game, to double-post with corrections.  First infraction is a warning, second infraction is a modkill.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day Two - Goblin Food
Post by: Parsely on July 30, 2013, 10:58:33 pm

Got it.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day Two - Goblin Food
Post by: Nerjin on July 30, 2013, 11:00:19 pm

I reccomend reading the OP. Even if you've read it before it helps to read it again just to be sure.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day Two - Goblin Food
Post by: Parsely on July 30, 2013, 11:11:43 pm

Dave wasn't scum. You knew he wasn't scum, he got lynched anyways. I don't like it. Vote griffinpup.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day Two - Goblin Food
Post by: Nerjin on July 31, 2013, 12:00:58 am

That's a generally weak case to make. Sure Pup might be a band-wagoning scum BUT he gave decent reasons and in all fairness Dave's play indicated scum. Gun, please point out specific points in Pup's play that show that he is scum alright? It's sorta hard to get used to but it's something you gotta do if you wanna play Mafia effectively.

---

A bit of general "Nerjin's Thoughts" here as I haven't said it yet: Don't be discouraged if the person you are sure was scum turns out not to be scum. You should never be fully married to a single suspect as there are always multiple scum*. Reread EVERYTHING from Day 1 again. Find a new person who seems scummy now that you know NQT and Dave are town.

---

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day Two - Goblin Food
Post by: griffinpup on July 31, 2013, 12:20:14 am

Just a warning guys.  I'll probably be gone all of tomorrow.  Friday  I'll have some free time though.

Gun:
I don't have enough time to actually respond to you but a few things.  Actually answer questions, and please put a better case together on me before I get back.  You should be attempting to convince people that I'm scummy.  If I'm lurking, point out what time period I was.  If I avoided questions, quote the questions.  If I OMGUS'd, point out where.  Don't throw around accusations without proof.  If you quote all your proof for everything you say, you can avoid several iterations of explanations and stuff.  This leads to more meaningful points made by both parties, and meaningful content is always a plus for town.  Don't fear the wall of text either.  If you have a page of points, by all means, post a page of points.

The IC may disagree, but this is good advice in any mafia game as well.  I really dislike discussing points with people that don't have good mafia etiquette.  Read the last revolution if you want to see what I mean.  x_x

PPE:
+1 to Nerjin's overall, post.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day Two - Goblin Food
Post by: Nerjin on July 31, 2013, 12:24:23 am

Quote from: griffinpup on July 31, 2013, 12:20:14 am

Just a warning guys.  I'll probably be gone all of tomorrow.  Friday  I'll have some free time though.

Gun:
If you have a page of points, by all means, post a page of points.

The IC may disagree, but this is good advice in any mafia game as well.

I can agree with it as long as it's concise. Don't beat around the bush.

Quote from: Griffinpup

I really dislike discussing points with people that don't have good mafia etiquette.  Read the last revolution if you want to see what I mean.

This sounds an awful lot like "I'm trying to insult someone because they hurt my feelings." I will ask you to stop now. We are in this game. We are NOT here to be hurt over what happened in the last game. If you have an issue with another player please take care of it privately. And as I recall you didn't exactly act as nice as possible either.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day Two - Goblin Food
Post by: griffinpup on July 31, 2013, 12:48:41 am

Nerjin:
I'm surprised that came off as an insult.  That's not at all what I was going for.  I don't mean etiquette like being polite and crap, I mean etiquette like responding to people's questions.  Both NQT and Dariush, (who I assume are the people you thought i insulted.) Purposefully chose to stop answering questions, or misinterpet the questions asked.  It was definitely a valid scum strategy, especially for NQT.  Pretty much anything else he would of said would only of made his partners look scummier.  I just dislike dealing with it, regardless of its validity as a strategy.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day Two - Goblin Food
Post by: Griffionday on July 31, 2013, 01:27:06 am

Griffinpup:

Sorry I didn't get to these before days-end:

Quote from: griffinpup on July 28, 2013, 06:19:38 pm

Quote from: Griffionday on July 28, 2013, 05:44:06 pm

The second time... I dislike the fact that you seem to be stockpiling cases against people.  You are also asking for people to put in effort where you're not gaining anything, which is indicative that you are trying to make a presence in the game.  If you don't gain anything from someone's reads why are you asking for them?

Stop putting words in my mouth!  I never said that I had nothing to gain from someone's reads!  In fact, I never even asked for the reads in the first place.  I prodded at the confusing wordings of the reads, and that's it.

I may have been misinterpreting this:

Quote from: griffinpup on July 28, 2013, 01:54:30 pm

Quote from: Griffionday on July 28, 2013, 01:42:38 pm

1. Why do you need to know what precisely IG meant by his reads?

1. I don't.

What did you mean?

Quote from: griffinpup on July 28, 2013, 06:19:38 pm

But to answer your first sentence.  Explain what you mean.  What "cases" would I be stockpiling, and why is that scummy?

What I mean is building a database with "Oh, he said so and so, he's opposed to that now, so he must be scum!"  This is anti-town as it's lazy scum hunting; hypocrisy is NOT a scum tell, so building information on what the players are saying is... pointless.

Quote from: griffinpup on July 28, 2013, 06:19:38 pm

And to your second sentence, find me a REAL example of when I asked people to put forth effort when I'm not gaining anything.

...  Here for instance:

Quote from: griffinpup on July 28, 2013, 06:19:38 pm

And to your second sentence, find me a REAL example of when I asked people to put forth effort when I'm not gaining anything.

Quote from: griffinpup on July 28, 2013, 06:55:51 pm

GriffDay:
Also, why didn't you raise these concerns when you voted me?  You asked me questions, I answered them, and then you posted multiple times without anything addressed to me.  Eventually I asked you why your vote was still on me, and you pull out multiple reasons that you had never even mentioned before.

I was three and a half hours into building a case on you?  I'm so sorry that I didn't have my initial suspicions backed with every possible argument I could make.  As for why I was  posting: I was addressing other things while I worked on my case.

Further question then:

Quote from: griffinpup on July 26, 2013, 04:24:31 pm

Dave:
What was the longest time period between all my posts?

Why did you ask this question to counter what I assume are Dave's accusations here:

Quote from: DaveTheGrave on July 26, 2013, 07:15:20 am

He was just lurking and hadnt posted anything applicable until he got vote, which made him go pseudo aggressive, and start to get, what I perceived as, extremely frustrated. Which to me seemed very scum like, and I felt the vote was well earned.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day Two - Goblin Food
Post by: notquitethere on July 31, 2013, 02:49:27 am

"Oh no gobbos! I better get on a wall carving for this..."

The cop is dead, so town need to step up their game. Scum, you're doing a good job but don't become complacent. Town: reread the interactions from day 1 in light of the two player's flipped. Jailor (if there is one): Use what you leaned last night to your advantage today. Scum: be sure to keep lynching the most dangerous of town and make sure you make solid cases during the day. Don't fluff it while you're ahead.

Everyone: I'll still be following the thread I'll answer theory-related questions

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day Two - Goblin Food
Post by: Okami No Rei on July 31, 2013, 07:21:15 am

Day Two will end on Friday, August 2 at 8:00pm CST

GUNINANRUNIN (0) -
griffinpup (2) - GUNINANRUNIN, Griffionday
Griffionday (0) -
Powder Miner (0) -
Imperial Guardsman (0) -
Chink (0) -
Nerjin (0) -

Not Voting - griffinpup, Powder Miner, Imperial Guardsman, Chink, Nerjin

Extend (0/3) -
Shorten (0/4) -

Lurker Tracker (http://www.ocf.berkeley.edu/~azhou/projects/LT/zt.py?topic=127764&start=0&msg=4432342&sort=time&numreplace=2&replaced0=Boy&replacer0=Chink&replaced1=TheWetSheep&replacer1=GUNINANRUNIN&player0=notquitethere&label0=dead&player1=DaveTheGrave&label1=dead&player2=Tiruin&label2=np&player3=Deathsword&label3=np&player4=zombie%20urist&label4=np&player5=mastahcheese&label5=np&numlabel=6)

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day Two - Goblin Food
Post by: Imperial Guardsman on July 31, 2013, 09:19:35 am

Yeah, we remember day 1 griffinpup

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day Two - Goblin Food
Post by: Parsely on July 31, 2013, 11:43:34 am

Quote from: griffinpup on July 31, 2013, 12:20:14 am

If I OMGUS'd, point out where.

Quote from: griffinpup on July 24, 2013, 05:40:39 pm

Boy:
OMGUS

Admittedly that was during RVS, but its still garbage mafia form to drop a vote without so much as an explanation.

Quote from: griffinpup on July 31, 2013, 12:20:14 am

Gun:
I don't have enough time to actually respond to you but a few things.  Actually answer questions, and please put a better case together on me before I get back.  You should be attempting to convince people that I'm scummy.  If I'm lurking, point out what time period I was.  If I avoided questions, quote the questions.  If I OMGUS'd, point out where.  Don't throw around accusations without proof.  If you quote all your proof for everything you say, you can avoid several iterations of explanations and stuff.  This leads to more meaningful points made by both parties, and meaningful content is always a plus for town.  Don't fear the wall of text either.  If you have a page of points, by all means, post a page of points.

More bandwagon. Instead of hiding behind the IC just to dodge my accusation.. Instead of telling me how to do my job.. How about you explain to me why you're not scum? When I ask you questions, I expect you to answer them.

Quote from: griffinpup on July 24, 2013, 10:09:10 pm

Ooohhh...  That's a very hard question.  I prefer to be fairly detailed in my posts where applicable.  I am also in multiple conversations/arguments at the same time.  I would focus on one of the discussions I was in, while not mentioning the other until I had more time.  I would also state that I was a bit out of time and would respond to the other discussion later.

You're explicitly stating that you're dodging questions right here. Why? What have you got to hide? What takes you so long to explain if you're so clean and shiny and innocent?

Instead of pursuing an easy lynch like scum, why weren't you pushing a new conclusion during D1?

Quote from: griffinpup on July 28, 2013, 09:36:08 pm

HAHAHAHAHA!
HAHAHAHAHA!
I literally laughed when I read this.
DAVE:
YOU STILL HAVEN'T ANSWERED MY QUESTIONS.

This was your last meaningful post before day end. Your next ones were nearly 24 hours later, and only to accuse a player who had just dropped in of lurking. Everything is wrong about this. You had been playing for nearly 72 hours, pressing points, keeping up the pressure the entire time, and yet you had nothing to say, not even so much as a "You STILL haven't answered my questions!" about Dave's situation?! Nerjin, NQT, even Deathsword.. Everyone else was pressing their points, showing him the flaws in his playstyle. Meanwhile, you were sitting back, watching the axe fall. Why?

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day Two - Goblin Food
Post by: Nerjin on July 31, 2013, 01:20:09 pm

Quote from: GUNINANRUNIN on July 31, 2013, 11:43:34 am

Quote from: griffinpup on July 31, 2013, 12:20:14 am

If I OMGUS'd, point out where.

Quote from: griffinpup on July 24, 2013, 05:40:39 pm

Boy:
OMGUS

Admittedly that was during RVS, but its still garbage mafia form to drop a vote without so much as an explanation.

It's more common than you'd think on the first vote. It's not the best thing to do and people usually do so while messing around.

Quote from: GUNINANRUNIN on July 31, 2013, 11:43:34 am

Quote from: griffinpup on July 31, 2013, 12:20:14 am

Gun:
I don't have enough time to actually respond to you but a few things.  Actually answer questions, and please put a better case together on me before I get back.  You should be attempting to convince people that I'm scummy.  If I'm lurking, point out what time period I was.  If I avoided questions, quote the questions.  If I OMGUS'd, point out where.  Don't throw around accusations without proof.  If you quote all your proof for everything you say, you can avoid several iterations of explanations and stuff.  This leads to more meaningful points made by both parties, and meaningful content is always a plus for town.  Don't fear the wall of text either.  If you have a page of points, by all means, post a page of points.

More bandwagon. Instead of hiding behind the IC just to dodge my accusation.. Instead of telling me how to do my job.. How about you explain to me why you're not scum? When I ask you questions, I expect you to answer them.

How is this bandwagon?  Please explain that. Furthermore allow me to intervene here: His job is NOT to explain why he isn't scum. Your job is to explain why he IS. Also, ironically, you still haven't answered his questions.

Quote from: GUNINANRUNIN on July 31, 2013, 11:43:34 am

Quote from: griffinpup on July 24, 2013, 10:09:10 pm

Ooohhh...  That's a very hard question.  I prefer to be fairly detailed in my posts where applicable.  I am also in multiple conversations/arguments at the same time.  I would focus on one of the discussions I was in, while not mentioning the other until I had more time.  I would also state that I was a bit out of time and would respond to the other discussion later.

You're explicitly stating that you're dodging questions right here. Why? What have you got to hide? What takes you so long to explain if you're so clean and shiny and innocent?

Instead of pursuing an easy lynch like scum, why weren't you pushing a new conclusion during D1?

*Sigh* Not having enough time to answer EVERYTHING isn't a scum-tell. As long as you answer the questions when you have time to do so it's rather fine. Life happens. Believe me when I say that EVERYONE on this board is going to have to make partial posts from time to time. That isn't dodging questions. NEVER answering questions despite mulitiple reminders is Gun.

As to the second part the answer is rather obvious but I'll let Pup field this one.

Quote from: GUNINANRUNIN on July 31, 2013, 11:43:34 am

Quote from: griffinpup on July 28, 2013, 09:36:08 pm

HAHAHAHAHA!
HAHAHAHAHA!
I literally laughed when I read this.
DAVE:
YOU STILL HAVEN'T ANSWERED MY QUESTIONS.

This was your last meaningful post before day end. Your next ones were nearly 24 hours later, and only to accuse a player who had just dropped in of lurking. Everything is wrong about this. You had been playing for nearly 72 hours, pressing points, keeping up the pressure the entire time, and yet you had nothing to say, not even so much as a "You STILL haven't answered my questions!" about Dave's situation?! Nerjin, NQT, even Deathsword.. Everyone else was pressing their points, showing him the flaws in his playstyle. Meanwhile, you were sitting back, watching the axe fall. Why?

A decent enough question. It's a bit

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day Two - Goblin Food
Post by: Parsely on July 31, 2013, 01:44:37 pm

Quote from: Nerjin on July 31, 2013, 01:20:09 pm

Quote from: GUNINANRUNIN on July 31, 2013, 11:43:34 am

Quote from: griffinpup on July 31, 2013, 12:20:14 am

If I OMGUS'd, point out where.

Quote from: griffinpup on July 24, 2013, 05:40:39 pm

Boy:
OMGUS

Admittedly that was during RVS, but its still garbage mafia form to drop a vote without so much as an explanation.

It's more common than you'd think on the first vote. It's not the best thing to do and people usually do so while messing around.

I was under the impression that most people took this game pretty seriously. :P

Quote from: Nerjin on July 31, 2013, 01:20:09 pm

Quote from: GUNINANRUNIN on July 31, 2013, 11:43:34 am

Quote from: griffinpup on July 31, 2013, 12:20:14 am

Gun:
I don't have enough time to actually respond to you but a few things.  Actually answer questions, and please put a better case together on me before I get back.  You should be attempting to convince people that I'm scummy.  If I'm lurking, point out what time period I was.  If I avoided questions, quote the questions.  If I OMGUS'd, point out where.  Don't throw around accusations without proof.  If you quote all your proof for everything you say, you can avoid several iterations of explanations and stuff.  This leads to more meaningful points made by both parties, and meaningful content is always a plus for town.  Don't fear the wall of text either.  If you have a page of points, by all means, post a page of points.

More bandwagon. Instead of hiding behind the IC just to dodge my accusation.. Instead of telling me how to do my job.. How about you explain to me why you're not scum? When I ask you questions, I expect you to answer them.

How is this bandwagon?  Please explain that. Furthermore allow me to intervene here: His job is NOT to explain why he isn't scum. Your job is to explain why he IS. Also, ironically, you still haven't answered his questions.

Its bandwagon because he was hopping on the "let's give the new guy advice" train, and using it to dodge my accusation. This is BM, and when I get advice I expect to be getting it from other ICs, not fellow players. And yes, part of his job is most certainly answering questions posed by other players.

Quote from: Nerjin on July 31, 2013, 01:20:09 pm

Quote from: GUNINANRUNIN on July 31, 2013, 11:43:34 am

Quote from: griffinpup on July 24, 2013, 10:09:10 pm

Ooohhh...  That's a very hard question.  I prefer to be fairly detailed in my posts where applicable.  I am also in multiple conversations/arguments at the same time.  I would focus on one of the discussions I was in, while not mentioning the other until I had more time.  I would also state that I was a bit out of time and would respond to the other discussion later.

You're explicitly stating that you're dodging questions right here. Why? What have you got to hide? What takes you so long to explain if you're so clean and shiny and innocent?

Instead of pursuing an easy lynch like scum, why weren't you pushing a new conclusion during D1?

*Sigh* Not having enough time to answer EVERYTHING isn't a scum-tell. As long as you answer the questions when you have time to do so it's rather fine. Life happens. Believe me when I say that EVERYONE on this board is going to have to make partial posts from time to time. That isn't dodging questions. NEVER answering questions despite mulitiple reminders is Gun.

I understand that not everyone is going to have time all day to answer all the questions posed to them, but being gone for almost a full 24 hours without advance warning? That doesn't happen in Mafia. Not to mention he gave us a warning just recently. I hold that he is lurking scum who was gunning for an easy lynch.

You don't strike me as the kind of person to let things slide in the first place. So I'll ask you to stop protecting griffin and start looking at the facts here.

((I'm honestly having a  really hard time finding these questions despite more than a few sweeps.. Can you please quote them for me so I can answer them? :S))

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day One - A Cunning Plan - Replacement Requested
Post by: Chink on July 31, 2013, 02:15:03 pm

Quote from: griffinpup on July 28, 2013, 12:38:06 pm

Gun:
Your predecessor pursued the issue of my voting without substance significantly, and then immediately dropped it and moved on.  What's your opinion on the subject?  Do you know why he left the issue so abruptly?

Quote from: notquitethere on July 28, 2013, 01:02:22 pm

GUN, welcome to the game. I suggest taking a moment to read through the game (better now before it gets too unwieldy) and making a few notes on the play of each of the players. What's your fresh perspective on everyone?

((Here are the questions asked of you, GUNINANRUNIN.))

Quote from: griffinpup on July 26, 2013, 10:41:09 pm

I, on the other hand, emulate town play. :D

Also, griffinpup, can you explain this line? It may just be nitpicking on my part, but saying that you emulate town play seems suspicious, given that emulate means to imitate, not to be. Only a scum player would have to imitate a townie.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day One - A Cunning Plan - Replacement Requested
Post by: Parsely on July 31, 2013, 02:22:34 pm

Quote from: Chink on July 31, 2013, 02:15:03 pm

Quote from: griffinpup on July 28, 2013, 12:38:06 pm

Gun:
Your predecessor pursued the issue of my voting without substance significantly, and then immediately dropped it and moved on.  What's your opinion on the subject?  Do you know why he left the issue so abruptly?

Quote from: notquitethere on July 28, 2013, 01:02:22 pm

GUN, welcome to the game. I suggest taking a moment to read through the game (better now before it gets too unwieldy) and making a few notes on the play of each of the players. What's your fresh perspective on everyone?

((Here are the questions asked of you, GUNINANRUNIN.))

((Thank you SO MUCH. <3))

I don't know much about WetSheep's actual opinions, so I can't answer the second question. If I had to speculate, it would be because he realised something. Perhaps that he wasn't gaining much ground with his angle? I'm of the opinion that voting without evidence can reveal evidence, but that its a move that should be reserved for D1 plays or from comebacks after being gone for a while.

Thanks. I skimmed it. And I already did.

((Anything I missed?))

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day Two - Goblin Food
Post by: Parsely on July 31, 2013, 02:32:55 pm

By "I already did" I mean I already gave a concise perspective rundown.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day Two - Goblin Food
Post by: Okami No Rei on July 31, 2013, 10:34:58 pm

45 Hours Remaining

Day Two will end on Friday, August 2 at 8:00pm CST

GUNINANRUNIN (0) -
griffinpup (3) - GUNINANRUNIN, Griffionday, Imperial Guardsman
Griffionday (0) -
Powder Miner (0) -
Imperial Guardsman (0) -
Chink (0) -
Nerjin (0) -

Not Voting - griffinpup, Powder Miner, Chink, Nerjin

Extend (0/3) -
Shorten (0/4) -

Powder Miner has been prodded for inactivity.

Lurker Tracker (http://www.ocf.berkeley.edu/~azhou/projects/LT/zt.py?topic=127764&start=0&msg=4432342&sort=time&numreplace=2&replaced0=Boy&replacer0=Chink&replaced1=TheWetSheep&replacer1=GUNINANRUNIN&player0=notquitethere&label0=dead&player1=DaveTheGrave&label1=dead&player2=Tiruin&label2=np&player3=Deathsword&label3=np&player4=zombie%20urist&label4=np&player5=mastahcheese&label5=np&numlabel=6)

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day Two - Goblin Food
Post by: Chink on July 31, 2013, 10:53:29 pm

((I likely won't be able to access the internet the next few days. Just as a warning, posting will be sporadic, if it occurs at all.))

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day Two - Goblin Food
Post by: Parsely on August 01, 2013, 12:27:58 am

((Might as well get this out of the way too. I'll be gone tomorrow most of the time.))

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day Two - Goblin Food
Post by: Griffionday on August 02, 2013, 12:06:21 am

Request replacement.

Sorry folks, but I've been FAR too tired after work for anything more complicated than eating and going to sleep.  And today I hear we're starting crunch time...

Hopefully my schedule will clear up soon, allowing me to enjoy this fascinating game more; but until it does: best of luck to town, and may scum ever hang.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day Two - Goblin Food
Post by: Okami No Rei on August 02, 2013, 12:44:48 am

Griffionday has requested replacement.

Powder Miner's position is up for replacement due to inactivity.

Does anyone oppose a mod-extension to Monday?

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day One - A Cunning Plan - Replacement Requested
Post by: Griffionday on August 02, 2013, 01:01:10 am

Just to clarify: I am completely able and willing to answer any questions posed to me until a replacement for me is found; however, the hunting part of the game is beyond me right now, and so I need to be replaced with someone who is able to accomplish that.

Again, I'm terribly sorry.

---

Okami:

Powder Miner hopefully will be back soon, he was just terrible about announcing that he was leaving for a while.

Quote from: Powder Miner on July 28, 2013, 12:15:37 pm

The active lurking is due to the fact that I'm trying to remporarily lessen my involvement in the game- due to the fact that I'm busy getting ready for a trip I'm taking tomorrow, and am about to take that trip for a few days. I simply don't have the time to hunt though the thread for scumtells right now.

I agree you probably need to extend considering the dearth of activity.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day Two - Goblin Food - Two Replacements Needed
Post by: Parsely on August 02, 2013, 01:31:03 am

I don't mind. It seems like everyone needs the time right now.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day Two - Goblin Food - Two Replacements Needed
Post by: Nerjin on August 02, 2013, 02:04:31 am

Yeah I could really go for the Extension.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day Two - Goblin Food - Two Replacements Needed
Post by: Okami No Rei on August 02, 2013, 07:17:52 am

I know Powder Miner's on a trip.  He failed to specify how long he'd be gone.  Two or three days is fine, but he's been gone for nearly five.

Day Two has been mod-extended.

Day now ends on Monday, August 5 at 8:00pm CST

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day Two - Goblin Food - Two Replacements Needed
Post by: Nerjin on August 02, 2013, 08:04:09 am

Okay so... GriffPup could you please respond to the accusations placed upon you?

Gun: I've already mentioned that your case seems a little flimsy. How certain are you that Pup is scum?

---

Wish I could post more but super busy.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day Two - Goblin Food - Two Replacements Needed
Post by: Parsely on August 02, 2013, 11:35:50 am

Griffpup is gone today, as he announced the day before yesterday I believe.

Fairly certain. Need to reread some things.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day Two - Goblin Food - Two Replacements Needed
Post by: Powder Miner on August 02, 2013, 04:55:33 pm

Quote from: Okami No Rei on August 02, 2013, 07:17:52 am

I know Powder Miner's on a trip.  He failed to specify how long he'd be gone.  Two or three days is fine, but he's been gone for nearly five.

Day Two has been mod-extended.

Day now ends on Monday, August 5 at 8:00pm CST

Aaaaand I'm back.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day Two - Goblin Food - Two Replacements Needed
Post by: Okami No Rei on August 02, 2013, 05:51:19 pm

Powder Miner has replaced Powder Miner

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day Two - Goblin Food - One Replacement Requested
Post by: Powder Miner on August 02, 2013, 07:16:38 pm

Yeeeeeeeeee.
Post later.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day Two - Goblin Food - One Replacement Requested
Post by: griffinpup on August 02, 2013, 09:18:20 pm

Cool.  I have everything written up, but it's pretty long.  Do you guys mind the biggest wall of text I've ever seen, or would you like me to break it up?

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day Two - Goblin Food - One Replacement Requested
Post by: Parsely on August 02, 2013, 09:42:09 pm

Quote from: griffinpup on August 02, 2013, 09:18:20 pm

Cool.  I have everything written up, but it's pretty long.  Do you guys mind the biggest wall of text I've ever seen, or would you like me to break it up?

I say wall it up.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day Two - Goblin Food
Post by: griffinpup on August 02, 2013, 09:55:22 pm

Quote from: GUNINANRUNIN on August 02, 2013, 09:42:09 pm

Quote from: griffinpup on August 02, 2013, 09:18:20 pm

Cool.  I have everything written up, but it's pretty long.  Do you guys mind the biggest wall of text I've ever seen, or would you like me to break it up?

I say wall it up.

you asked for it.


OK I'm back...  Sorry for the lack of activity and the wall of text that's coming your way, but I haven't managed to find time the last few days to respond to all the accusations against me until now.
To find that every conversation was about me or Gun, and that Chink, despite attempting be helpful, has yet to post anything of content.

Chink:
Why the lack of content?

Quote from: Griffionday on July 31, 2013, 01:27:06 am

Griffinpup:

Sorry I didn't get to these before days-end:

Quote from: griffinpup on July 28, 2013, 06:19:38 pm

Quote from: Griffionday on July 28, 2013, 05:44:06 pm

The second time... I dislike the fact that you seem to be stockpiling cases against people.  You are also asking for people to put in effort where you're not gaining anything, which is indicative that you are trying to make a presence in the game.  If you don't gain anything from someone's reads why are you asking for them?

Stop putting words in my mouth!  I never said that I had nothing to gain from someone's reads!  In fact, I never even asked for the reads in the first place.  I prodded at the confusing wordings of the reads, and that's it.

I may have been misinterpreting this:

Quote from: griffinpup on July 28, 2013, 01:54:30 pm

Quote from: Griffionday on July 28, 2013, 01:42:38 pm

1. Why do you need to know what precisely IG meant by his reads?

1. I don't.

What did you mean?

Apparently you have misinterpreted that.  You see, not needing something doesn't mean that it's not in any way useful to me at any point in the game.  I find reads useful.  I don't find them necessary.  I also don't need to know precisely what IG meant, although it might prove to be useful.

Quote

Quote from: griffinpup on July 28, 2013, 06:19:38 pm

But to answer your first sentence.  Explain what you mean.  What "cases" would I be stockpiling, and why is that scummy?

What I mean is building a database with "Oh, he said so and so, he's opposed to that now, so he must be scum!"  This is anti-town as it's lazy scum hunting; hypocrisy is NOT a scum tell, so building information on what the players are saying is... pointless.

I completely disagree.  Hypocrisy is not what I'm looking for, but contradictions.  Hypocrisy is telling people not to do something, while doing it yourself and is not necessarily scummy.  Contradictions are saying and doing opposing things.  Contradicting yourself IS scummy.  It shows willingness to drastically change your play depending on the situation at hand to serve your best interests.  Scum try to manipulate, and as such they change their play to best suit their needs.  Also, scum tend to slip when pretending to scumhunt.  Since they have to fabricate cases on people, it's more likely, in my opinion, that scum also will contradict themselves on what their opinion actually is, or have fallacious logic to back up their cases.  Town, on the other hand, rarely change their style of play or do contradicting things.  They have no need to.  Their goal is to find scum.  The way you go about scumhunting as town doesn't change enough throughout the game to create contradictions.  The way scum attempt to manipulate town usually does.
The whole purpose of RVS is to find contradictions in people's play later on in the game.  Why not find contradictions in how people are playing in other parts of the game as well?

But there's one really interesting sentence in this paragraph that I want to mention.
"building information on what people say is... pointless."
If building information on what people say is pointless, what do you build information on? 

Quote

Quote from: griffinpup on July 28, 2013, 06:19:38 pm

And to your second sentence, find me a REAL example of when I asked people to put forth effort when I'm not gaining anything.

...  Here for instance:

Quote from: griffinpup on July 28, 2013, 06:19:38 pm

And to your second sentence, find me a REAL example of when I asked people to put forth effort when I'm not gaining anything.

Using current information to prove a statement in the past is fallacious logic.  Note this hypothetical.  If I ask someone why they know that Dave was town in day one, and they later respond by quoting his role-flip, they managed to avoid the question as well as attempt to prove their prior reasoning by events and material that came out later.  This implies that they actually didn't have valid reasoning prior to Dave's role flip.  You just did a very similar thing.  Now answer the question, this time without quoting something that happened after your statement.

But besides the invalidity of your answer, it also implied that I gain absolutely nothing from disproving parts of your case on me, which is obviously untrue.  That doesn't make sense regardless of whether I'm scum or not.  I have clear motivation to find out where your accusations come from and if they really exist.

Quote

Quote from: griffinpup on July 28, 2013, 06:55:51 pm

GriffDay:
Also, why didn't you raise these concerns when you voted me?  You asked me questions, I answered them, and then you posted multiple times without anything addressed to me.  Eventually I asked you why your vote was still on me, and you pull out multiple reasons that you had never even mentioned before.

I was three and a half hours into building a case on you?  I'm so sorry that I didn't have my initial suspicions backed with every possible argument I could make. 

I forgive you.

Quote

As for why I was  posting: I was addressing other things while I worked on my case.

Further question then:

Quote from: griffinpup on July 26, 2013, 04:24:31 pm

Dave:
What was the longest time period between all my posts?

Why did you ask this question to counter what I assume are Dave's accusations here:

Quote from: DaveTheGrave on July 26, 2013, 07:15:20 am

He was just lurking and hadnt posted anything applicable until he got vote, which made him go pseudo aggressive, and start to get, what I perceived as, extremely frustrated. Which to me seemed very scum like, and I felt the vote was well earned.

I asked this question because I was accused of lurking.  Clearly Dave looked at the times of my posts to realize that fact, and I was wondering if I really did lurk. (failed attempt at witty sarcasm)

In all actuality, his logic for voting me was bogus.  I knew that I wasn't lurking, and forcing Dave to answer that question would of made him say it himself.  If that was really his reason for voting me, he'd be able to defend it.  If he couldn't defend it, it would mean that he had other reasoning for voting me.  Tying the vote, for example.

Gun:

Quote from: GUNINANRUNIN on July 30, 2013, 11:11:43 pm

Dave wasn't scum. You knew he wasn't scum, he got lynched anyways. I don't like it. Vote griffinpup.

I'd be very interested in knowing how YOU know that I knew that Dave was scum.  I might just be forgetful, but I don't ever remember saying so.

Quote from: GUNINANRUNIN on July 31, 2013, 11:43:34 am

Quote from: griffinpup on July 31, 2013, 12:20:14 am

Gun:

More bandwagon.

Actually, the term bandwagon in mafia refers to voting someone that already has multiple votes, so it's not really applicable in this instance.  Using this definition, giving you advice obviously isn't bandwagoning.  If you want to use a wider definition of bandwagoning, such as "voting someone that already has multiple votes, OR giving advice to someone who already has had advice given to him" you'll have to give a valid explanation on why the latter part of the definition is also scummy.  Good luck.

But even your accusation of giving you advice after other people give you advice is partially flawed.  The only recent advice given to you by an IC was given by Nerjin in the post before me.  I actually wrote the majority of my post BEFORE Nerjin posted his.

Quote

Instead of hiding behind the IC just to dodge my accusation.. Instead of telling me how to do my job.. How about you explain to me why you're not scum?

You've messed up the burden of proof.  This game is innocent until proven guilty, not the other way around.  Though a game the other way around would be very entertaining.  Picture wall after wall of texts being posted explaining why their prior wall of text makes them townie.  :o

Quote

When I ask you questions, I expect you to answer them.

Wow.  Hypocrisy for the win.

Not having time to answer your questions isn't scummy, so stop pretending that it is.
Also, could you quote these questions?  I've skimmed the thread and I didn't see these supposed questions.

Quote

Quote from: griffinpup on July 24, 2013, 10:09:10 pm

Ooohhh...  That's a very hard question.  I prefer to be fairly detailed in my posts where applicable.  I am also in multiple conversations/arguments at the same time.  I would focus on one of the discussions I was in, while not mentioning the other until I had more time.  I would also state that I was a bit out of time and would respond to the other discussion later.

You're explicitly stating that you're dodging questions right here.

Explicitly actually means to say it.  In the paragraph quoted, I never once stated that I'm dodging questions, explicitly or implicitly.  I stated that I prefer to respond fully to one person as opposed to partial responses to multiple people.

Quote

Why? What have you got to hide? What takes you so long to explain if you're so clean and shiny and innocent?

Umm...  I think that you don't grasp that this was a answer to an RVS question.  I'm not sure how, as you'd have to edit out the actual question to quote the part you did, but you managed it.  The question was a purely hypothetical scenario in which I had to get off of the computer soon for some unknown reason.  Powder Miner wanted to know what I'd include in this undefined and limited time frame.  I told him.  From the perspective of this being a hypothetical scenario, I don't really understand how your questions make sense.

Quote

Instead of pursuing an easy lynch like scum,

Scum actually have surprisingly little motivation to pursue an "easy lynch."  It's much safer and it looks more townie to "change opinions" and attack someone else.  There obviously still is motivation to pursue an "easy lynch", of course, but not very much.

Quote

why weren't you pushing a new conclusion during D1?

Because I thought Dave was scum and wanted him to be lynched.  It's counterproductive to push for an alternate conclusion when the person you think is scum is being lynched.  This is kind of a 'duh' moment.  What answer were you expecting to get?

Quote

Quote from: griffinpup on July 28, 2013, 09:36:08 pm

HAHAHAHAHA!
HAHAHAHAHA!
I literally laughed when I read this.
DAVE:
YOU STILL HAVEN'T ANSWERED MY QUESTIONS.

This was your last meaningful post before day end.

I'm going to assume you meant last meaningful post towards Dave before day end.

Quote

Your next ones were nearly 24 hours later, and only to accuse a player who had just dropped in of lurking. Everything is wrong about this. You had been playing for nearly 72 hours, pressing points, keeping up the pressure the entire time, and yet you had nothing to say, not even so much as a "You STILL haven't answered my questions!" about Dave's situation?! Nerjin, NQT, even Deathsword.. Everyone else was pressing their points, showing him the flaws in his playstyle. Meanwhile, you were sitting back, watching the axe fall. Why?

I think you forgot IG.  But regardless, the situation didn't change whatsoever.  My earlier case and accusations and questions were still applicable.  He still hadn't answered my case in any way, shape, or form.  I had already tried prodding him multiple times, and that didn't work.  I saw no reason to prod again at day end when not only would he might not have time to answer my prod, but when his answer probably wouldn't be satisfactory if he even acknowledged the prod at all.    Would you of preferred that I quote my case again at day end?  Or perhaps I should of rephrased it and posted the rephrased version instead.

Pretty much, Do you find my case(s) against Dave unsatisfactory?

Quote from: GUNINANRUNIN on July 31, 2013, 01:44:37 pm

Its bandwagon because he was hopping on the "let's give the new guy advice" train,

Which is an inaccurate use of the word bandwagon.  Also, "hopping onto that train" isn't inherently scummy either.

Quote

and using it to dodge my accusation.

A flat out lie.  I STATED that I didn't have time to fully respond to you.

Quote

This is BM, and when I get advice I expect to be getting it from other ICs, not fellow players.

This is purely for information's' sake.  Do you disagree with the actual advice, or are you just throwing a hissy fit because it came from me?

Quote

And yes, part of his job is most certainly answering questions posed by other players.

But that isn't what you asked me to do.  You asked me to explain why I'm not scum.  And again, I DIDN'T HAVE TIME TO RESPOND TO YOU. 
Also, the fact that you still haven't answered my question in this post makes this statement hilarious.

Quote

Quote from: Nerjin on July 31, 2013, 01:20:09 pm

Quote from: GUNINANRUNIN on July 31, 2013, 11:43:34 am

Quote from: griffinpup on July 24, 2013, 10:09:10 pm

I understand that not everyone is going to have time all day to answer all the questions posed to them, but being gone for almost a full 24 hours without advance warning? That doesn't happen in Mafia.

That happens all the time.  You're not the most knowledgeable person when it comes to what usually does and doesn't happen in mafia.

Quote

Not to mention he gave us a warning just recently. I hold that he is lurking scum

Lurking is NOT being gone for almost 24 hours.  If I didn't post for almost 24 hours, it means that I posted once a day.  This is ACCEPTABLE in the game of mafia.  I gave you a warning when I was planning on being gone for 36 hours, not 24.  Noted, it did take longer then that, but that was my original estimate.

Quote

((I'm honestly having a  really hard time finding these questions despite more than a few sweeps.. Can you please quote them for me so I can answer them? :S))

Oh, so you just missed these five posts that contained them in your few sweeps.

Quote from: griffinpup on July 29, 2013, 07:23:44 pm

Quote from: notquitethere on July 29, 2013, 07:46:47 pm

Quote from: GUNINANRUNIN on July 30, 2013, 09:05:48 pm

Quote from: griffinpup on July 28, 2013, 12:38:06 pm

Quote from: notquitethere on July 28, 2013, 01:02:22 pm

Wait...  One of these posts are yours.  You quoted a question at the same time not answering it and now you claim that in your 'multiple' sweeps, you still couldn't find them?

Well, that wraps up your accusations.  Now I have a few questions for you.

Quote from: GUNINANRUNIN on July 29, 2013, 06:51:35 pm

And there's plenty of action watching Nerjin and Dave (one-sidedly) slug it out.

Excuse number one for not posting.

Quote from: GUNINANRUNIN on July 29, 2013, 07:41:05 pm

I'm making a case right now. I was taking the time to read through the thread and see what sort of effort everyone was putting in, and their stances.

Excuse number two for not posting.

Quote from: GUNINANRUNIN on July 30, 2013, 09:05:48 pm

To be honest, I wasn't aware that I was IN until after the second to last time update before the end of D1, and once I had realised this I was panicking while trying to catch up on the thread. I got through most of D1, but I haven't read the middle to end parts, which is why I haven't voted yet. Probably should've done that sooner to prevent looking like a lurker, but I didn't want to make any decisions without having all the facts first.

Excuse number three for not posting, this time for not posting a vote.

Gun:  Why all the completely different reasons for not participating in the game?  First you're sitting back 'watching the action'.  Then you're suddenly building a case and taking your time reading through the thread.  Finally, you were panicking while trying to catch up on the thread all while running out of time.

You also completely 'missed' this post of mine and the questions in it.

Quote from: griffinpup on July 29, 2013, 08:00:46 pm

I'd really like to know what case you were making before day one.  Your most recent posts, (the ones after your voting post) were mostly in response to my actions taken AFTER the end of day one.  What was your case beforehand?

Chink:
When I was using the word emulate, I meant that my play was a shining example of town play.  I was obviously kidding, but that's what I meant.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day Two - Goblin Food - One Replacement Requested
Post by: griffinpup on August 02, 2013, 09:56:27 pm

And, uh, quote anything I missed.  In a reply so big, stuff can get lost. :P 

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day Two - Goblin Food - One Replacement Requested
Post by: Parsely on August 02, 2013, 11:10:40 pm

Quote

Why all the completely different reasons for not participating in the game?  First you're sitting back 'watching the action'.  Then you're suddenly building a case and taking your time reading through the thread.  Finally, you were panicking while trying to catch up on the thread all while running out of time.

I was catching up on the thread because I was nearly out of time, which set me into a panic, but at the same time I realised I needed to be careful. How could you not describe a game of mafia as action? I was riveted the whole time, trying to absorb every detail, but the thought that Day 1 was ending kept entering my mind and pulling me away.

Quote

This is purely for information's' sake.  Do you disagree with the actual advice, or are you just throwing a hissy fit because it came from me?

Allow me to answer your question with another question: Are you saying that I'm accusing you because I don't like you? If so, its not me who's being emotional.

Quote

I'd be very interested in knowing how YOU know that I knew that Dave was scum.  I might just be forgetful, but I don't ever remember saying so.

I remember you being quite confident that Dave was just bad Town, and yet no unvote, or even a shred of an attempt to build a case on someone else. Everyone was convinced that Dave was bad Town, and were all ready to get rid of him because of that, but the important part here is that in the meantime they also made attempts to try getting information out of other players. You didn't.

Quote

But even your accusation of giving you advice after other people give you advice is partially flawed.  The only recent advice given to you by an IC was given by Nerjin in the post before me.  I actually wrote the majority of my post BEFORE Nerjin posted his.

I was using the term bandwagon to highlight that you were sidestepping my accusation by giving me advice, as Nerjin had just done. I suppose I could understand how you would be mistaken due to the context, or rather the setting.

Even if you could prove that, why wouldn't you post something regarding my accusation rather than advising me on proper play? It makes sense for the IC to be giving me advice, but not for you to.

Quote

Which is an inaccurate use of the word bandwagon.  Also, "hopping onto that train" isn't inherently scummy either.

You probably don't know what the word bandwagon means outside of Mafia. The scummy part wasn't that you thought you were an IC for a minute, the scummy part is that you ignored my accusation altogether. As if you just pretended it wasn't there. Like you didn't want it to be there.

Quote

Wow.  Hypocrisy for the win.

Not having time to answer your questions isn't scummy, so stop pretending that it is.
Also, could you quote these questions?  I've skimmed the thread and I didn't see these supposed questions.

I've answered all your questions. The questions that I asked followed that sentence.

Speaking of hypocrites, you went on to accuse me of avoiding questions and making up excuses for not seeing them later in your post, which is exactly what you're doing right now. Ironically, you answered all the questions you said you missed. So.. good job I guess? You don't need to dodge questions you've already answered. Heh. :P

Quote

Wait...  One of these posts are yours.  You quoted a question at the same time not answering it and now you claim that in your 'multiple' sweeps, you still couldn't find them?

Are you blind? In that same post, if you actually read it, you'll see I provided an overall perspective of all the players (which was asked of me) as well as explained why I didn't vote (which was the other question asked of me). Both questions and my answers, which you somehow quoted without looking at, are below.

Quote from: GUNINANRUNIN on July 30, 2013, 09:05:48 pm

Pre Night Lock
Sorry for a bad quotes. I wrote this up after the lock at the end of D1.

Quote from: NQT

GUN

Quote

Well no one's asked me any questions as a matter of fact. And there's plenty of action watching Nerjin and Dave (one-sidedly) slug it out.

There was this:

Quote from: NQT

GUN, welcome to the game. I suggest taking a moment to read through the game (better now before it gets too unwieldy) and making a few notes on the play of each of the players. What's your fresh perspective on everyone?

Also, were you going to vote?

To be honest, I wasn't aware that I was IN until after the second to last time update before the end of D1, and once I had realised this I was panicking while trying to catch up on the thread. I got through most of D1, but I haven't read the middle to end parts, which is why I haven't voted yet. Probably should've done that sooner to prevent looking like a lurker, but I didn't want to make any decisions without having all the facts first.

Spoiler: Opinions Based on Cursory Review of D1 (click to show/hide)

griffinpup - quick to press and accuse and slow to answer questions. has a habit of poking others for questions incessantly. seems to harbour a lot of meta-grudgery
Griffionday - reserved, but when he speaks up he makes it count
Powder Miner - same as Griffionday
Imperial Guardsman - 2nd or 3rd game? like Dave the Grave but less scummy
DaveTheGrave - a really bad townie imho based on what I've seen, which is why i didn't vote for him yet. not defensive enough to be scum, but suspicious, and a liability nonetheless.
Chink - aggressive, but struggles to get his points across.
Nerjin - mildly suspicious. he fought pretty hard just to get what looks like a bad townie to go down, but everyone had a good reason for Dave to get cut out. similar to griffinpup but actually backs himself up
NQT - compare to Griffionday, but much more vocal. gets a lot of opposition, likely because he's IC, and thus experienced, and thus dangerous. no concrete scumtell as of yet, and I have little suspicions of him :L

You're clearly grasping at straws here Pup. This whole "you're not answering my questions" thing is getting a little old, especially when people are actually answering said questions. >.>

Quote

Do you find my case(s) against Dave unsatisfactory?

Not at all! On the contrary it was quite good, almost perfect. It was so perfect that everyone voted for Dave, thus removing any chance of you getting lynched, and as scum, you were happy with that.

Quote

But regardless, the situation didn't change whatsoever.  My earlier case and accusations and questions were still applicable.  He still hadn't answered my case in any way, shape, or form.  I had already tried prodding him multiple times, and that didn't work.  I saw no reason to prod again at day end when not only would he might not have time to answer my prod, but when his answer probably wouldn't be satisfactory if he even acknowledged the prod at all.

I like how you were trying to make it sound like you were busy during those 24 hours that you didn't post, but in reality, you were aware of what was going on at that time, but instead chose not to post. Is that not correct?

Quote

Scum actually have surprisingly little motivation to pursue an "easy lynch."  It's much safer and it looks more townie to "change opinions" and attack someone else.

Sounds to me like you know how to scum pretty well.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day Two - Goblin Food - One Replacement Requested
Post by: Parsely on August 02, 2013, 11:14:25 pm

*nearly everyone voted for Dave

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day Two - Goblin Food - One Replacement Requested
Post by: griffinpup on August 03, 2013, 12:56:24 pm

Quote from: GUNINANRUNIN on August 02, 2013, 11:10:40 pm

Speaking of hypocrites, you went on to accuse me of avoiding questions and making up excuses for not seeing them later in your post, which is exactly what you're doing right now. Ironically, you answered all the questions you said you missed. So.. good job I guess? You don't need to dodge questions you've already answered. Heh. :P

Quote from: GUNINANRUNIN on August 02, 2013, 11:10:40 pm

You're clearly grasping at straws here Pup. This whole "you're not answering my questions" thing is getting a little old, especially when people are actually answering said questions. >.>

*sigh.  Here's every question you haven't answered as of this post.

Quote from: griffinpup on August 02, 2013, 09:55:22 pm

I'd really like to know what case you were making before day one.  Your most recent posts, (the ones after your voting post) were mostly in response to my actions taken AFTER the end of day one.  What was your case beforehand?

Quote from: griffinpup on August 02, 2013, 09:55:22 pm

Do you disagree with the actual advice, or are you just throwing a hissy fit because it came from me?

Quote from: griffinpup on August 02, 2013, 09:55:22 pm

Would you of preferred that I quote my case again at day end?  Or perhaps I should of rephrased it and posted the rephrased version instead.

Quote from: griffinpup on August 02, 2013, 09:55:22 pm

What answer were you expecting to get?

And you never responded to this whole post whatsoever.

Quote from: griffinpup on July 29, 2013, 08:00:46 pm

I'll stop accusing you of not answering questions when you actually answer all the questions.

Quote from: GUNINANRUNIN on August 02, 2013, 11:10:40 pm

Quote

Why all the completely different reasons for not participating in the game?  First you're sitting back 'watching the action'.  Then you're suddenly building a case and taking your time reading through the thread.  Finally, you were panicking while trying to catch up on the thread all while running out of time.

I was catching up on the thread because I was nearly out of time, which set me into a panic, but at the same time I realised I needed to be careful. How could you not describe a game of mafia as action? I was riveted the whole time, trying to absorb every detail, but the thought that Day 1 was ending kept entering my mind and pulling me away.

In the first case you made it appear as if you were sitting back, watching the fun.  In the third, your explanation was that you were PANICKING.  Why did you present those in completely separate and contradicting ways?

Quote from: GUNINANRUNIN on August 02, 2013, 11:10:40 pm

How could you not describe a game of mafia as action?

Do you really need an answer to this?  But to answer, you could describe the game of mafia as a game instead of the embodiment of action.  Duh.

Quote from: GUNINANRUNIN on August 02, 2013, 11:10:40 pm

Quote

This is purely for information's' sake.  Do you disagree with the actual advice, or are you just throwing a hissy fit because it came from me?

Allow me to answer your question with another question: Are you saying that I'm accusing you because I don't like you? If so, its not me who's being emotional.

Gun uses deflection!  It's not very effective...
Answer the actual question.  Do you disagree with the advice or not?

Quote from: GUNINANRUNIN on August 02, 2013, 11:10:40 pm

Allow me to answer your question with another question: Are you saying that I'm accusing you because I don't like you? If so, its not me who's being emotional.

Gun, you're the definition of being driven by emotions over reason.  Of course you're accusing me because you don't like me.  You are attacking the person who prodded you out of lurking.  You have yet to initiate a conversation with ANYONE besides me. (tunneling) In fact, the only things from you addressed to someone else are in response to a direct question or to defend your case.  Your case is made of cardboard and tinfoil, and with such terrible reasoning for why I'm scum you're obviously motivated by something other then logic.  The fact that you keep dropping your fallacious points without another comment and endlessly moving on to more of them also agrees with that.

Your argument also doesn't make sense. "You're accusing me of being emotionally driven, so it's obviously you who is" isn't a very good argument, nor does it make sense.

Quote from: GUNINANRUNIN on August 02, 2013, 11:10:40 pm

Quote

I'd be very interested in knowing how YOU know that I knew that Dave was scum.  I might just be forgetful, but I don't ever remember saying so.

I remember you being quite confident that Dave was just bad Town, and yet no unvote, or even a shred of an attempt to build a case on someone else.

Quote where I said that Dave was just bad town.  That is, unless you're making it up.

Quote from: GUNINANRUNIN on August 02, 2013, 11:10:40 pm

or even a shred of an attempt to build a case on someone else. Everyone was convinced that Dave was bad Town, and were all ready to get rid of him because of that, but the important part here is that in the meantime they also made attempts to try getting information out of other players. You didn't.

Liar.  Go read the thread again.  In almost every one of my posts I dealt with issues other then Dave as well.

Quote from: GUNINANRUNIN on August 02, 2013, 11:10:40 pm

Quote

But even your accusation of giving you advice after other people give you advice is partially flawed.  The only recent advice given to you by an IC was given by Nerjin in the post before me.  I actually wrote the majority of my post BEFORE Nerjin posted his.

I was using the term bandwagon to highlight that you were sidestepping my accusation by giving me advice, as Nerjin had just done. I suppose I could understand how you would be mistaken due to the context, or rather the setting.

What?  Clarify this point.

Quote from: GUNINANRUNIN on August 02, 2013, 11:10:40 pm

Even if you could prove that, why wouldn't you post something regarding my accusation rather than advising me on proper play? It makes sense for the IC to be giving me advice, but not for you to.

Two things.  First, because your accusation was...  without any proof whatsoever.  Prodding you to make a better case seemed like a good idea.  That way there'd be more then blind accusations to respond to when I got back.
And Two: Because your play was sucky.  We don't really need someone playing mafia on this forum that won't bother to quote proof of their actions or answer questions.  Nerjin covered most of what I said, which made it kinda redundant, but as I said, I wrote that post before he posted.  That's what the PPE: at the end denotes.

Quote from: GUNINANRUNIN on August 02, 2013, 11:10:40 pm

Quote

Which is an inaccurate use of the word bandwagon.  Also, "hopping onto that train" isn't inherently scummy either.

You probably don't know what the word bandwagon means outside of Mafia.

You realize that we're playing mafia, right?  When someone throws around words like "doctor", "tunneling", and "bandwagon", they have very specific meanings.  You didn't follow the very specific meaning bandwagon has in this game, and as such it wasn't applicable.

Quote from: GUNINANRUNIN on August 02, 2013, 11:10:40 pm

Quote

Wow.  Hypocrisy for the win.

Not having time to answer your questions isn't scummy, so stop pretending that it is.
Also, could you quote these questions?  I've skimmed the thread and I didn't see these supposed questions.

I've answered all your questions. The questions that I asked followed that sentence.

Wait, you subtly accused me of not answering the questions that were in the same post as your accusation?  I must be misunderstanding this.  You're not THAT stupid.

Quote from: GUNINANRUNIN on August 02, 2013, 11:10:40 pm

I've answered all your questions.

Funnily enough, you still haven't answered all my questions.

Quote from: GUNINANRUNIN on August 02, 2013, 11:10:40 pm

Speaking of hypocrites, you went on to accuse me of avoiding questions and making up excuses for not seeing them later in your post, which is exactly what you're doing right now. Ironically, you answered all the questions you said you missed. So.. good job I guess? You don't need to dodge questions you've already answered. Heh. :P

Again, your point is lost on me.  You have avoided questions.  I never avoided answering questions.  Answering questions isn't scummy.

Quote from: GUNINANRUNIN on August 02, 2013, 11:10:40 pm

Are you blind? In that same post, if you actually read it, you'll see I provided an overall perspective of all the players (which was asked of me) as well as explained why I didn't vote (which was the other question asked of me). Both questions and my answers, which you somehow quoted without looking at, are below.

Wow, no need to be snappy.  You never connected your list of reads to the question asked.  When you were prodded again to answer the same question, you never said "I've already answered this question."  You said that you already posted your list of reads.  There was no way to know that you considered your list of reads your answer to that question.  Chink didn't know either, yet you never bit his head off.  Why?

Quote from: GUNINANRUNIN on August 02, 2013, 11:10:40 pm

Quote

Do you find my case(s) against Dave unsatisfactory?

Not at all! On the contrary it was quite good, almost perfect. It was so perfect that everyone voted for Dave, thus removing any chance of you getting lynched, and as scum, you were happy with that.

As town, I was happy with lynching who I believed to be scum and a poorly playing player.  But making good cases on players that turn out to be town isn't scummy.

Quote from: GUNINANRUNIN on August 02, 2013, 11:10:40 pm

Quote

But regardless, the situation didn't change whatsoever.  My earlier case and accusations and questions were still applicable.  He still hadn't answered my case in any way, shape, or form.  I had already tried prodding him multiple times, and that didn't work.  I saw no reason to prod again at day end when not only would he might not have time to answer my prod, but when his answer probably wouldn't be satisfactory if he even acknowledged the prod at all.

I like how you were trying to make it sound like you were busy during those 24 hours that you didn't post, but in reality, you were aware of what was going on at that time, but instead chose not to post. Is that not correct?

Your accusation is...  What exactly?  And what about my answer is unsatisfactory? 

Quote from: GUNINANRUNIN on August 02, 2013, 11:10:40 pm

Is that not correct?

I actually wasn't paying much attention to the game in that time-period.  I was also waiting on promised answers to my questions from Dave.

Quote from: DaveTheGrave on July 28, 2013, 09:37:27 pm

Quote from: griffinpup on July 28, 2013, 09:36:08 pm

Quote from: DaveTheGrave on July 28, 2013, 09:34:16 pm

Quote from: Imperial Guardsman on July 28, 2013, 09:15:18 pm

He dodged several questions after the game began, is only reacting to me voting him, and is only condemning himself.
He screwed up and tried to build a case against me.

Ididnt dodge any questions. You simply cant find evidence.

HAHAHAHAHA!
HAHAHAHAHA!
I literally laughed when I read this.
DAVE:
YOU STILL HAVEN'T ANSWERED MY QUESTIONS.

What questions? I will re-skim the topic for them, happy? jeez.

They never appeared.  I was done with prodding him at that point.  If someone doesn't answer your questions repeatedly (*cough cough*) and then promises answers that never appear, you kinda stop trying or caring.

Gun:  You seem to think that I believe you to be scum.  Stop being delusional.  I haven't voted you, nor have a really raised a case on you yet. 

IG:
That's the second scummiest vote in this game so far.  That was a HUGE bandwagon.  Do you have a real case on me?

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day Two - Goblin Food - One Replacement Requested
Post by: Parsely on August 04, 2013, 12:41:06 am

((Agh! Out. Out, out, out. I'm going to start having far less time each day to be fooling about on the computer, and between running four game threads and learning how to play this in a manner that could be described as passingly well.. I'm gonna have to go with my games. Can't wait to see how this turns out in the meantime though. Good luck everyone! :D))

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day Two - Goblin Food - One Replacement Requested
Post by: Chink on August 04, 2013, 11:18:56 am

griffinpup: Sorry about the lack of context on that question. I just asked it because that phrasing has been bugging me ever since you posted that response, and I had nothing else to ask at the moment. I'll try to actually get some reads up when I get back from vacation.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day Two - Goblin Food - One Replacement Requested
Post by: griffinpup on August 04, 2013, 11:27:55 am

Griffionday and Gun:
It's still your responsibility to play this game until a replacement can be found.  As such, i would appreciate a response or at least a concise case for lynching me.  Pretty much just a paragraph summarizing your points.

And IG:
Stop lurking and give reasons for putting your vote onto me.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day Two - Goblin Food - One Replacement Requested
Post by: Imperial Guardsman on August 04, 2013, 05:04:25 pm

Until you can prove yourself innocent from your actions on day one, the vote stays.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day Two - Goblin Food - One Replacement Requested
Post by: griffinpup on August 04, 2013, 05:16:34 pm

Quote from: Imperial Guardsman on August 04, 2013, 05:04:25 pm

Until you can prove yourself innocent from your actions on day one, the vote stays.

IG:
The burden of proof is on you, not me.  You have to prove why I'm scum.  You don't even have a case, and you want me to explain why I'm town.  NO.  STOP BEING A LAZY PIECE OF BANDWAGONING SCUM, AND AT LEAST TRY TO PLAY THIS GAME.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day Two - Goblin Food - One Replacement Requested
Post by: griffinpup on August 04, 2013, 05:37:39 pm

And Extend.  We're looking at two completely new replacements, and a lynch target who's explanations aren't being responded to.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day Two - Goblin Food - One Replacement Requested
Post by: Nerjin on August 04, 2013, 09:58:53 pm

Extend I am so sorry guys I've just been really busy and haven't had any time over the past couple of days to get a good read.

---

Quote from: Imperial Guardsman on August 04, 2013, 05:04:25 pm

Until you can prove yourself innocent from your actions on day one, the vote stays.

Imperial Guardsman that's a lazy way of doing things. What are your reasons for voting?

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day Two - Goblin Food - One Replacement Requested
Post by: Imperial Guardsman on August 04, 2013, 10:12:54 pm

Alright.
I voted you to see what you would do.
OMGUS?

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day Two - Goblin Food
Post by: Okami No Rei on August 05, 2013, 12:54:09 am

19 Hours remain in Day 2

Day Two will end on Monday, August 5 at 8:00pm CST

GUNINANRUNIN (0) -
griffinpup (3) - GUNINANRUNIN, Griffionday, Imperial Guardsman
Griffionday (0) -
Powder Miner (0) -
Imperial Guardsman (2) - griffinpup, Nerjin
Chink (0) -
Nerjin (0) -

Not Voting - Powder Miner, Chink

Extend (2/3) - griffinpup, Nerjin
Shorten (0/4) -

One more vote needed to extend.

Griffionday has requested replacement.
GUNINANRUNIN has requested replacement.

Lurker Tracker (http://www.ocf.berkeley.edu/~azhou/projects/LT/zt.py?topic=127764&start=0&msg=4432342&sort=time&numreplace=2&replaced0=Boy&replacer0=Chink&replaced1=TheWetSheep&replacer1=GUNINANRUNIN&player0=notquitethere&label0=dead&player1=DaveTheGrave&label1=dead&player2=Tiruin&label2=np&player3=Deathsword&label3=np&player4=zombie%20urist&label4=np&player5=mastahcheese&label5=np&numlabel=6)

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day Two - Goblin Food - One Replacement Requested
Post by: Griffionday on August 05, 2013, 01:37:17 am

Ah right, I forgot to unvote, sorry about that.

Quote from: griffinpup on August 02, 2013, 09:55:22 pm

Apparently you have misinterpreted that.  You see, not needing something doesn't mean that it's not in any way useful to me at any point in the game.  I find reads useful.  I don't find them necessary.  I also don't need to know precisely what IG meant, although it might prove to be useful.

I still don't see what was confusing about IG's reads.  They seemed rather straightforward to me.

Quote from: griffinpup on August 02, 2013, 09:55:22 pm

I completely disagree.  Hypocrisy is not what I'm looking for, but contradictions.  Hypocrisy is telling people not to do something, while doing it yourself and is not necessarily scummy.  Contradictions are saying and doing opposing things.  Contradicting yourself IS scummy.  It shows willingness to drastically change your play depending on the situation at hand to serve your best interests.  Scum try to manipulate, and as such they change their play to best suit their needs.  Also, scum tend to slip when pretending to scumhunt.  Since they have to fabricate cases on people, it's more likely, in my opinion, that scum also will contradict themselves on what their opinion actually is, or have fallacious logic to back up their cases.  Town, on the other hand, rarely change their style of play or do contradicting things.  They have no need to.  Their goal is to find scum.  The way you go about scumhunting as town doesn't change enough throughout the game to create contradictions.  The way scum attempt to manipulate town usually does.
The whole purpose of RVS is to find contradictions in people's play later on in the game.  Why not find contradictions in how people are playing in other parts of the game as well?

So saying I find X person town and then a week later attacking them over something would be scummy?  Because that would be a direct contradiction but wouldn't necessarily be a scum only tactic.  What if you've decided that they needed to be pressured whether or not you think they're scum, just so if they are they can't hide?

Because not doing so gives the game to scum on a silver platter.  If saying: "I find you town" is reason not to critique someone, for fear of being thrown to the inquisition by scum legitimately saying you are contradicting yourself then scum can relax after the RVS phase.

Also the point of the RVS phase is isn't to spot contradictions.  The point is to leave it as soon as possible.  How one does so depends on their nature and play style.

Quote from: griffinpup on August 02, 2013, 09:55:22 pm

But there's one really interesting sentence in this paragraph that I want to mention.
"building information on what people say is... pointless."
If building information on what people say is pointless, what do you build information on? 

How they say things, what they don't say, etc.  Basically the fluff surrounding what they say is FAR more important than the specific details of what they say.

Quote from: griffinpup on August 02, 2013, 09:55:22 pm

Using current information to prove a statement in the past is fallacious logic.  Note this hypothetical.  If I ask someone why they know that Dave was town in day one, and they later respond by quoting his role-flip, they managed to avoid the question as well as attempt to prove their prior reasoning by events and material that came out later.  This implies that they actually didn't have valid reasoning prior to Dave's role flip.  You just did a very similar thing.  Now answer the question, this time without quoting something that happened after your statement.

Possibly if I find time, this is the kind of stuff I don't have time for.

Quote from: griffinpup on August 02, 2013, 09:55:22 pm

But besides the invalidity of your answer, it also implied that I gain absolutely nothing from disproving parts of your case on me, which is obviously untrue.  That doesn't make sense regardless of whether I'm scum or not.  I have clear motivation to find out where your accusations come from and if they really exist.

Shouldn't you already know that?

Quote from: griffinpup on August 02, 2013, 09:55:22 pm

I asked this question because I was accused of lurking.  Clearly Dave looked at the times of my posts to realize that fact, and I was wondering if I really did lurk. (failed attempt at witty sarcasm)

In all actuality, his logic for voting me was bogus.  I knew that I wasn't lurking, and forcing Dave to answer that question would of made him say it himself.  If that was really his reason for voting me, he'd be able to defend it.  If he couldn't defend it, it would mean that he had other reasoning for voting me.  Tying the vote, for example.

Saying: "What is my post frequency?" is a bullshit way of getting someone to admit that you are not lurking.  Prodding based on content you added to the game I could understand, but asking him to analyze the frequency of your posts seems needlessly defensive.

---

Hey Nerjin, why are you buddying griffinpup?

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day Two - Goblin Food
Post by: Okami No Rei on August 05, 2013, 07:19:53 am

12 Hours remain in Day 2

Day Two will end on Monday, August 5 at 8:00pm CST

GUNINANRUNIN (0) -
griffinpup (2) - GUNINANRUNIN, Imperial Guardsman
Griffionday (0) -
Powder Miner (0) -
Imperial Guardsman (2) - griffinpup, Nerjin
Chink (0) -
Nerjin (0) -

Not Voting - Powder Miner, Chink, Griffionday

NOTE: TIE VOTES WILL RESULT IN A NO-LYNCH

Extend (2/3) - griffinpup, Nerjin
Shorten (0/4) -

One more vote needed to extend.

Griffionday has requested replacement.
GUNINANRUNIN has requested replacement.

Lurker Tracker (http://www.ocf.berkeley.edu/~azhou/projects/LT/zt.py?topic=127764&start=0&msg=4432342&sort=time&numreplace=2&replaced0=Boy&replacer0=Chink&replaced1=TheWetSheep&replacer1=GUNINANRUNIN&player0=notquitethere&label0=dead&player1=DaveTheGrave&label1=dead&player2=Tiruin&label2=np&player3=Deathsword&label3=np&player4=zombie%20urist&label4=np&player5=mastahcheese&label5=np&numlabel=6)

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day Two - Goblin Food - Two Replacements Requested
Post by: Imperial Guardsman on August 05, 2013, 09:30:49 am

Extend

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day Two - Goblin Food - One Replacement Requested
Post by: griffinpup on August 05, 2013, 02:09:00 pm

Quote from: Griffionday on August 05, 2013, 01:37:17 am

I still don't see what was confusing about IG's reads.  They seemed rather straightforward to me.

This seemed straightforward?

Quote from: Imperial Guardsman on July 28, 2013, 11:36:57 am

Powderminer is activelurking from the look of it, but he is still asking good questions and actively trying to obtain information.
Town, leaning towards scum.

Quote from: Griffionday on August 05, 2013, 01:37:17 am

So saying I find X person town and then a week later attacking them over something would be scummy?  Because that would be a direct contradiction but wouldn't necessarily be a scum only tactic.  What if you've decided that they needed to be pressured whether or not you think they're scum, just so if they are they can't hide?

Obviously every single contradiction a player can make isn't scummy.  I'm not looking for those.  But let's say Player X day one has a super aggressive playstyle and tends to ignore accusations against them.  In day two however, he acts defensively, and only halfheartedly pursues targets.  I would argue that that is a scummy change of playstyle.  Also note the contradiction NQT did last Revolution.  He played up analysis of teams and votes far more then actual discussion, but then mentioned a viable scum strategy "supposedly" to initiate such discussion.  This slip up eventually led to the discovery that he was scum.

Quote from: Griffionday on August 05, 2013, 01:37:17 am

Also the point of the RVS phase is isn't to spot contradictions.  The point is to leave it as soon as possible.  How one does so depends on their nature and play style.

I heartily disagree.  If the point was to leave RVS as quickly as possible, you wouldn't ask questions applicable to mafia.  It may be good to leave the RVS phase quickly, but the point is to look for contradictions in what people say and do later in the game.

Quote from: Griffionday on August 05, 2013, 01:37:17 am

How they say things, what they don't say, etc.  Basically the fluff surrounding what they say is FAR more important than the specific details of what they say.

I have to mention this.  The fluff around the specific details that they say is also WHAT THEY SAY.

Quote from: Griffionday on August 05, 2013, 01:37:17 am

\

Quote from: griffinpup on August 02, 2013, 09:55:22 pm

Using current information to prove a statement in the past is fallacious logic.  Note this hypothetical.  If I ask someone why they know that Dave was town in day one, and they later respond by quoting his role-flip, they managed to avoid the question as well as attempt to prove their prior reasoning by events and material that came out later.  This implies that they actually didn't have valid reasoning prior to Dave's role flip.  You just did a very similar thing.  Now answer the question, this time without quoting something that happened after your statement.

Possibly if I find time, this is the kind of stuff I don't have time for.

I'm absolutely sure it's a time issue, and not the fact that you can't find anything.

If this really is a point in your case against me, you should know where some examples are.  This question shouldn't require a reread to find the answer.

Quote from: Griffionday on August 05, 2013, 01:37:17 am

Quote from: griffinpup on August 02, 2013, 09:55:22 pm

But besides the invalidity of your answer, it also implied that I gain absolutely nothing from disproving parts of your case on me, which is obviously untrue.  That doesn't make sense regardless of whether I'm scum or not.  I have clear motivation to find out where your accusations come from and if they really exist.

Shouldn't you already know that?

I'm not perfect.  Although I believe that your accusations are unfounded, I'm not certain of that fact.

Quote from: Griffionday on August 05, 2013, 01:37:17 am

Saying: "What is my post frequency?" is a bullshit way of getting someone to admit that you are not lurking.  Prodding based on content you added to the game I could understand, but asking him to analyze the frequency of your posts seems needlessly defensive.

Wrong.  Making someone explain that they are wrong is always better then explaining why someone is.  This probably comes from the debater me though.

Asking him to analyze the frequency of my posts shouldn't of been a problem if he were telling the truth.  He would of already looked at that before making the accusation of lurking.  Only if he was lying about his motivation for voting me would my question make him do additional work.

GUN:
Please find time to respond to my post.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day Two - Goblin Food
Post by: Okami No Rei on August 05, 2013, 05:35:58 pm

Day 2 has been extended.

Day 2 now ends on Wednesday, August 7 at 8:00pm CST

GUNINANRUNIN (0) -
griffinpup (2) - GUNINANRUNIN, Imperial Guardsman
Griffionday (0) -
Powder Miner (0) -
Imperial Guardsman (2) - griffinpup, Nerjin
Chink (0) -
Nerjin (0) -

Not Voting - Powder Miner, Chink, Griffionday

NOTE: TIE VOTES WILL RESULT IN A NO-LYNCH

Extend (0/3) -
Shorten (0/4) -

Griffionday has requested replacement.
GUNINANRUNIN has requested replacement.

Lurker Tracker (http://www.ocf.berkeley.edu/~azhou/projects/LT/zt.py?topic=127764&start=0&msg=4432342&sort=time&numreplace=2&replaced0=Boy&replacer0=Chink&replaced1=TheWetSheep&replacer1=GUNINANRUNIN&player0=notquitethere&label0=dead&player1=DaveTheGrave&label1=dead&player2=Tiruin&label2=np&player3=Deathsword&label3=np&player4=zombie%20urist&label4=np&player5=mastahcheese&label5=np&numlabel=6)

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day Two - Goblin Food - Two Replacements Requested
Post by: Powder Miner on August 05, 2013, 06:07:39 pm

I hate to do this, but I might have to drop out of this one, becaue my attention span for multiple forums nd threads is not as high as I had thought it to be...

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day Two - Goblin Food - Three Replacements Requested
Post by: griffinpup on August 05, 2013, 07:15:08 pm

Powder miner, before you leave you should make a case on someone along with your vote.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day Two - Goblin Food - Three Replacements Requested
Post by: Vector on August 05, 2013, 07:18:49 pm

Holy fuck this game is having problems.

Depending on how difficult the launch of Lonely Prince is I may or may not replace in.  Have you tried trolling around the threshold list yet?

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day Two - Goblin Food - Three Replacements Requested
Post by: Powder Miner on August 05, 2013, 09:02:39 pm

Griffin, my exact problem is that i bounce around between too many forums to actually do that- considering the rp game i moderate that has multi hour rounds.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day Two - Goblin Food - One Replacement Requested
Post by: Nerjin on August 05, 2013, 10:17:45 pm

Imperail Guardsman

Quote from: Imperial Guardsman on August 04, 2013, 10:12:54 pm

Alright.
I voted you to see what you would do.
OMGUS?

Fair enough. Except that he didn't OMGUS you. He stated quite clearly his reason. Do you feel that GriffPup's actions at current have changed your opinion to be more certain towards his guilt/innocence?

Further-more are you comfortable with voting someone to a lynch JUST to see their reactions? Seems awfully like a lazy scum to me. How about you share your reads [a sentence or two should be fine] on every player. I find that doing this from time to time can be helpful to some players to organize your thoughts.

---

Quote from: Griffionday on August 05, 2013, 01:37:17 am

Hey Nerjin, why are you buddying griffinpup?

I'm not. I'm working on a bit of a lesser time schedule than I should [not enough to need to replace out as everything's taken care of now] due to a bit of a death in the family and a 50th wedding year thing for my grand-parents. BUT I voted IG due to a really lazy reason of voting Pup.

---

Ugh another replacement... Bah... EVERYONE NOT REPLACING OUT please state a case and vote. These games aren't fun if everyone lurks.

---

Quote from: Vector on August 05, 2013, 07:18:49 pm

Holy fuck this game is having problems.

Depending on how difficult the launch of Lonely Prince is I may or may not replace in.  Have you tried trolling around the threshold list yet?

I don't think you can. You'd be an IC. Unless you're replacing NQT [dead] or Me [playing though I shall step aside as you'd be a better teacher] I don't think you can.

---

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day Two - Goblin Food - Three Replacements Requested
Post by: Okami No Rei on August 05, 2013, 10:29:24 pm

At this point I'd take anyone, beginner or no.  I'm sure Vector can handle playing like a beginner for a change.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day Two - Goblin Food - Three Replacements Requested
Post by: Vector on August 05, 2013, 10:29:24 pm

What?  Usually it's fine for anyone to replace into a BM, regardless of experience.  I'd just be playing, rather than serving as an IC.

But if I can't, then I can't.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day Two - Goblin Food - Three Replacements Requested
Post by: TheWetSheep on August 05, 2013, 11:47:53 pm

If you need me to, I can come back into my old position(GUNINANRUNIN's) until Sunday, when I'll need to leave again.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day Two - Goblin Food - Three Replacements Requested
Post by: Okami No Rei on August 05, 2013, 11:49:34 pm

That would be appreciated.  I'll leave you as up for replacement.

TheWetSheep has replaced GUNINANRUNIN

36 Hours remain in the day.

Day 2 ends on Wednesday, August 7 at 8:00pm CST

TheWetSheep (0) -
griffinpup (2) - TheWetSheep, Imperial Guardsman
Griffionday (0) -
Powder Miner (0) -
Imperial Guardsman (2) - griffinpup, Nerjin
Chink (0) -
Nerjin (0) -

Not Voting - Powder Miner, Chink, Griffionday

NOTE: TIE VOTES WILL RESULT IN A NO-LYNCH

Extend (0/3) -
Shorten (0/4) -

Griffionday has requested replacement.
TheWetSheep has requested replacement.
Powder Miner has requested replacement.

I wonder if this will break the Lurker Tracker (http://www.ocf.berkeley.edu/~azhou/projects/LT/zt.py?topic=127764&start=0&msg=4432342&sort=time&numreplace=2&replaced0=Boy&replacer0=Chink&replaced1=TheWetSheep&replacer1=GUNINANRUNIN&player0=notquitethere&label0=dead&player1=DaveTheGrave&label1=dead&player2=Tiruin&label2=np&player3=Deathsword&label3=np&player4=zombie%20urist&label4=np&player5=mastahcheese&label5=np&numlabel=6).

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day Two - Goblin Food - Three Replacements Requested
Post by: griffinpup on August 06, 2013, 10:28:00 am

Quote from: Powder Miner on August 05, 2013, 09:02:39 pm

Griffin, my exact problem is that i bounce around between too many forums to actually do that- considering the rp game i moderate that has multi hour rounds.

>:(
OK.
 :(
I guess that works.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day Two - Goblin Food - Three Replacements Requested
Post by: TheWetSheep on August 06, 2013, 10:31:52 am

I'm back! Unvote

Chink: You have contributed basically nothing this game. I know you're on vacation, but let's take a look at your posts:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Quote from: Chink on July 26, 2013, 05:50:46 pm

IG: I'd roleblock either you or Dave, presuming I can't try it on myself. I'd pick you because seemed rather scummy to me after your initial argument with Dave, although if Dave is scum, I wouldn't think you were. I'd go for Dave if he didn't get lynched, though, because his actions here, such as ignoring questions asked of him, seem really scummy. I guess he could just be a really nervous townie, though.
Nerjin: Could you please link me the questions? The thread is pretty large, and I'm sure I'd miss some of them. As for my thoughts on the game so far, I think that it has been going well.
((Also, sorry about the semi-racist name. When I picked the name, I didn't know that it was also a slur word, and it's too late to change it now.))

Quote from: Chink on July 26, 2013, 07:08:42 pm

griffinpup: Why, do you think, are you second in the running for being lynched? What scumtells do you think you've been giving?

NQT: You are a generic scum, D1. Who do you want to target N1, and why?

Powder Miner: You are a cop. Who do you target for N1, and why?

IG: You are a Rolecop, D1. Who do you target N1, and why?

Quote from: Chink on July 26, 2013, 09:41:22 pm

Powder Miner: Nerjin. I haven't seen anything to make me think he's mafia, so no reason to target him.

Quote from: Chink on July 26, 2013, 10:53:51 pm

Quote from: griffinpup on July 24, 2013, 10:09:10 pm

Boy - Have you read a mafia game on this forum yet?  If so, which one(s)?

Quote from: Powder Miner on July 24, 2013, 07:26:18 pm

Boy: You're a mafia roleblocker. It's Night 1. How would you decide to roleblock?

Quote from: TheWetSheep on July 24, 2013, 06:50:27 pm

Boy: If you got a scum inspect result on Night 1 would you claim or wait and try to find the second one?

Quote from: Nerjin on July 24, 2013, 06:02:08 pm

Mah Boy: Peace is what all true warriors strive for. Let's assume you're the cop and you get an innocent inspection. However you feel like the mafia is onto you but you're not sure. Do you claim or bank on not getting caught?

I've dug up all of the questions directed at Boy I could find.
Griffinpup: I have looked at Toon Mafia VII, but I just skimmed most of that.
Powder Miner: I'd probably pick at random out of those that aren't my scum buddies, as there wouldn't be enough evidence to know who has roles.
WetSheep: Wait. Claiming immediately would cause the mafia to kill/roleblock me next night.
Nerjin: Bank on not getting caught. Claiming someone is innocent exposes that I might be the cop, and is really just too risky in my opinion.

Quote from: Chink on July 28, 2013, 01:38:24 pm

Chink

Quote from: notquitethere on July 28, 2013, 06:19:20 am

Quote from: Chink on July 26, 2013, 07:08:42 pm

NQT: You are a generic scum, D1. Who do you want to target N1, and why?

You can just ask the scum IC this sort of thing  . I'd target the most competent town player that is also least likely to be mislynched, which at this stage is probably Powder Miner or Nerjin (assuming that they're town). What would you do?

Quote from: notquitethere on July 28, 2013, 01:02:22 pm

Chink, is there any reason why you're not using your vote? The vote is town's weapon, without it they cannot pressure and lynch scum.

NQT: I wouldn't target you or Nerjin, because ICs can still talk after death. I'd probably go for Powder Miner, assuming he isn't scum, because he seems competent. As for why I haven't voted yet, I'm biding my time until I see someone I really want to put pressure on. I may as well use it now, though.
IG: You do realize that saying I'm town or scum means nothing, right? Everybody in this game can only be town or scum.
Dave:  Have I investigated any of them already, and have I made made any of those investigations public? I can't answer the question to the best of my ability until I know that.
Powder Miner: Who do you think are the scum, and why?

Quote from: Chink on July 28, 2013, 05:53:34 pm

Quote from: griffinpup on July 28, 2013, 02:40:42 pm

Quote from: DaveTheGrave on July 28, 2013, 02:36:40 pm

Quote from: Chink on July 28, 2013, 01:38:24 pm

Dave:  Have I investigated any of them already, and have I made made any of those investigations public? I can't answer the question to the best of my ability until I know that.

You've investigated one of them, and they are confirmed not scum, but youre not sure if theres only 1 scum left, or 2

you realize that that's not actually possible, right? You always know the number of scum.

This. Number of scum is always known because a player's alignment is announced at death. If there was one left, I would investigate whoever seemed to be defending him from being lynched, and if there were two, I would pick the scummiest player whose alignment I didn't know.

Quote from: Chink on July 28, 2013, 11:41:47 pm

Nerjin: Which players do you think are the scum, and why?

Quote from: Chink on July 31, 2013, 02:15:03 pm

Quote from: griffinpup on July 28, 2013, 12:38:06 pm

Gun:
Your predecessor pursued the issue of my voting without substance significantly, and then immediately dropped it and moved on.  What's your opinion on the subject?  Do you know why he left the issue so abruptly?

Quote from: notquitethere on July 28, 2013, 01:02:22 pm

GUN, welcome to the game. I suggest taking a moment to read through the game (better now before it gets too unwieldy) and making a few notes on the play of each of the players. What's your fresh perspective on everyone?

((Here are the questions asked of you, GUNINANRUNIN.))

Quote from: griffinpup on July 26, 2013, 10:41:09 pm

I, on the other hand, emulate town play.

Also, griffinpup, can you explain this line? It may just be nitpicking on my part, but saying that you emulate town play seems suspicious, given that emulate means to imitate, not to be. Only a scum player would have to imitate a townie.

Quote from: Chink on July 31, 2013, 10:53:29 pm

((I likely won't be able to access the internet the next few days. Just as a warning, posting will be sporadic, if it occurs at all.))

Quote from: Chink on August 04, 2013, 11:18:56 am

griffinpup: Sorry about the lack of context on that question. I just asked it because that phrasing has been bugging me ever since you posted that response, and I had nothing else to ask at the moment. I'll try to actually get some reads up when I get back from vacation.

To sum it up, you've had 10 posts. The first 7 are RVS, even when we had come out of RVS. The last bit's excusable, because of your vacation, but during late day 1, you said nothing whatsoever on the matter of DaveTheGrave's bandwagon, and ended up going to day end with an RVS vote on someone. Seems to me like you're trying to avoid attention.

Griffinpup:

Quote from: griffinpup on July 28, 2013, 12:38:06 pm

Gun:
Your predecessor pursued the issue of my voting without substance significantly, and then immediately dropped it and moved on.  What's your opinion on the subject?  Do you know why he left the issue so abruptly?

What? I left it because you explained your reasoning and clarified something. Something you yourself said. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=127764.msg4437901#msg4437901) So why does this make us suspicious?

Quote from: griffinpup on August 05, 2013, 02:09:00 pm

GUN:
Please find time to respond to my post.

Did you not understand his post? He asked for a replacement, and said he had not time to keep up with the game. You have no right to ask this of someone who isn't in the game anymore.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day Two - Goblin Food - Three Replacements Requested
Post by: griffinpup on August 06, 2013, 11:11:30 am

Quote from: TheWetSheep on August 06, 2013, 10:31:52 am

Griffinpup:

Quote from: griffinpup on July 28, 2013, 12:38:06 pm

Gun:
Your predecessor pursued the issue of my voting without substance significantly, and then immediately dropped it and moved on.  What's your opinion on the subject?  Do you know why he left the issue so abruptly?

What? I left it because you explained your reasoning and clarified something. Something you yourself said. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=127764.msg4437901#msg4437901) So why does this make us suspicious?

Because after intentionally avoiding your original question instead of answering it,  (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=127764.msg4434988#msg4434988) I quibbled over a little detail. you thought that that was the answer to your question, and pushed.  When I explained that that wasn't actually meant to answer to your question, you immediately dropped the issue.  You never asked for an actual answer to your question.  At this time you were coming under fire from NQT from pushing a meaningless detail, which I believe motivated you to drop the issue as quickly as you did.  So, TWS, why did you drop the issue so quickly even though I never answered your question?

Quote from: TheWetSheep on August 06, 2013, 10:31:52 am

Quote from: griffinpup on August 05, 2013, 02:09:00 pm

GUN:
Please find time to respond to my post.

Did you not understand his post? He asked for a replacement, and said he had not time to keep up with the game. You have no right to ask this of someone who isn't in the game anymore.

I have every right.  Players asking for replacements have an obligation to continue playing to the best of their ability until such time as they are replaced.  Notice Griffionday still playing.  HE WAS STILL IN THE GAME.  But since he is now replaced, respond to my post and all unanswered questions.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day Two - Goblin Food - Three Replacements Requested
Post by: TheWetSheep on August 06, 2013, 12:47:44 pm

Quote from: griffinpup on August 06, 2013, 11:11:30 am

So, TWS, why did you drop the issue so quickly even though I never answered your question?

Actually, you did.

Quote from: griffinpup on July 25, 2013, 08:36:56 pm

Why not?  I'm not sure what you're looking for with this conversation.  I wanted to be the first one to post.  I didn't have time to do a full set of RVS, but I hate when people are like "first post!"  so I decided to throw out my vote on one of the new people.  It was purely a reaction-test.  Think of it as seeing how the new kid reacts to being called scum for fallacious reasoning.  It was just luck that the person I 'omgused' actually did suck.

Quote

But since he is now replaced, respond to my post and all unanswered questions.

I can't. All that post is relating to Gun's case on you, a case I don't agree with. I can't answer questions like "Do you disagree with the advice or not?".

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day Two - Goblin Food - One Replacement Requested
Post by: griffinpup on August 06, 2013, 01:10:59 pm

Quote from: TheWetSheep on August 06, 2013, 12:47:44 pm

Quote from: griffinpup on August 06, 2013, 11:11:30 am

So, TWS, why did you drop the issue so quickly even though I never answered your question?

Actually, you did.

Quote from: griffinpup on July 25, 2013, 08:36:56 pm

Why not?  I'm not sure what you're looking for with this conversation.  I wanted to be the first one to post.  I didn't have time to do a full set of RVS, but I hate when people are like "first post!"  so I decided to throw out my vote on one of the new people.  It was purely a reaction-test.  Think of it as seeing how the new kid reacts to being called scum for fallacious reasoning.  It was just luck that the person I 'omgused' actually did suck.

Quote

But since he is now replaced, respond to my post and all unanswered questions.

I can't. All that post is relating to Gun's case on you, a case I don't agree with. I can't answer questions like "Do you disagree with the advice or not?".

Fair enough.
Attempt to respond to this then.

Quote from: griffinpup on August 03, 2013, 12:56:24 pm

Quote from: GUNINANRUNIN on August 02, 2013, 11:10:40 pm

Quote

I'd be very interested in knowing how YOU know that I knew that Dave was scum.  I might just be forgetful, but I don't ever remember saying so.

I remember you being quite confident that Dave was just bad Town, and yet no unvote, or even a shred of an attempt to build a case on someone else.

1. Quote where I said that Dave was just bad town.  That is, unless you're making it up.

Quote from: GUNINANRUNIN on August 02, 2013, 11:10:40 pm

or even a shred of an attempt to build a case on someone else. Everyone was convinced that Dave was bad Town, and were all ready to get rid of him because of that, but the important part here is that in the meantime they also made attempts to try getting information out of other players. You didn't.

2. Liar.  Go read the thread again.  In almost every one of my posts I dealt with issues other then Dave as well.

1.  Please quote where I said that Dave was just bad town.  If you can't find it, please give me an explanation on why Gun was so confident that it existed.
2.  Do you agree that Gun was lying?

Quote from: griffinpup on August 03, 2013, 12:56:24 pm

1. Gun, you're the definition of being driven by emotions over reason.  Of course you're accusing me because you don't like me.  You are attacking the person who prodded you out of lurking.  You have yet to initiate a conversation with ANYONE besides me. (tunneling) In fact, the only things from you addressed to someone else are in response to a direct question or to defend your case.  Your case is made of cardboard and tinfoil, and with such terrible reasoning for why I'm scum you're obviously motivated by something other then logic.  The fact that you keep dropping your fallacious points without another comment and endlessly moving on to more of them also agrees with that.

Your argument also doesn't make sense. "You're accusing me of being emotionally driven, so it's obviously you who is" isn't a very good argument, nor does it make sense.

Quote from: GUNINANRUNIN on August 02, 2013, 11:10:40 pm

Quote

But even your accusation of giving you advice after other people give you advice is partially flawed.  The only recent advice given to you by an IC was given by Nerjin in the post before me.  I actually wrote the majority of my post BEFORE Nerjin posted his.

I was using the term bandwagon to highlight that you were sidestepping my accusation by giving me advice, as Nerjin had just done. I suppose I could understand how you would be mistaken due to the context, or rather the setting.

2. What?  Clarify this point.

Quote from: GUNINANRUNIN on August 02, 2013, 11:10:40 pm

Speaking of hypocrites, you went on to accuse me of avoiding questions and making up excuses for not seeing them later in your post, which is exactly what you're doing right now. Ironically, you answered all the questions you said you missed. So.. good job I guess? You don't need to dodge questions you've already answered. Heh. :P

3. Again, your point is lost on me.  You have avoided questions.  I never avoided answering questions.  Answering questions isn't scummy.

Quote from: GUNINANRUNIN on August 02, 2013, 11:10:40 pm

Quote

But regardless, the situation didn't change whatsoever.  My earlier case and accusations and questions were still applicable.  He still hadn't answered my case in any way, shape, or form.  I had already tried prodding him multiple times, and that didn't work.  I saw no reason to prod again at day end when not only would he might not have time to answer my prod, but when his answer probably wouldn't be satisfactory if he even acknowledged the prod at all.

I like how you were trying to make it sound like you were busy during those 24 hours that you didn't post, but in reality, you were aware of what was going on at that time, but instead chose not to post. Is that not correct?

4. Your accusation is...  What exactly?  And what about my answer is unsatisfactory? 

1.  Do you agree or disagree that Gun was being emotionally driven, and why?
2,3,4: Do you know what his points were?

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day Two - Goblin Food - Three Replacements Requested
Post by: TheWetSheep on August 06, 2013, 01:49:12 pm

Griffpup: OK... trawling through the thread that much might take some time. But first: why did you edit this post (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=127764.msg4442642#msg4442642)? You know editing isn't allowed by now. *Checks time stamps* Five days later? Why?

Quote from: griffinpup on August 06, 2013, 01:10:59 pm

1.  Please quote where I said that Dave was just bad town.  If you can't find it, please give me an explanation on why Gun was so confident that it existed.
2.  Do you agree that Gun was lying?

1. This is the closest thing I could find:

Quote from: griffinpup on July 28, 2013, 12:38:06 pm

Dave is stupid, and is either super stupid, or panicking scum.  Without answers to my questions, and what looks like an OMGUS and bandwagon vote in an attempt to save himself, he looks decidedly scummy.  This could merely be extreme newbiness, but I doubt it.

It's pretty hard to interpret it how he was, though.
2. You seem to have addressed others enough in late D1, yes.

Quote

Quote from: griffinpup on August 03, 2013, 12:56:24 pm

1. Gun, you're the definition of being driven by emotions over reason.  Of course you're accusing me because you don't like me.  You are attacking the person who prodded you out of lurking.  You have yet to initiate a conversation with ANYONE besides me. (tunneling) In fact, the only things from you addressed to someone else are in response to a direct question or to defend your case.  Your case is made of cardboard and tinfoil, and with such terrible reasoning for why I'm scum you're obviously motivated by something other then logic.  The fact that you keep dropping your fallacious points without another comment and endlessly moving on to more of them also agrees with that.

Your argument also doesn't make sense. "You're accusing me of being emotionally driven, so it's obviously you who is" isn't a very good argument, nor does it make sense.

Quote from: GUNINANRUNIN on August 02, 2013, 11:10:40 pm

Quote

But even your accusation of giving you advice after other people give you advice is partially flawed.  The only recent advice given to you by an IC was given by Nerjin in the post before me.  I actually wrote the majority of my post BEFORE Nerjin posted his.

I was using the term bandwagon to highlight that you were sidestepping my accusation by giving me advice, as Nerjin had just done. I suppose I could understand how you would be mistaken due to the context, or rather the setting.

2. What?  Clarify this point.

Quote from: GUNINANRUNIN on August 02, 2013, 11:10:40 pm

Speaking of hypocrites, you went on to accuse me of avoiding questions and making up excuses for not seeing them later in your post, which is exactly what you're doing right now. Ironically, you answered all the questions you said you missed. So.. good job I guess? You don't need to dodge questions you've already answered. Heh. :P

3. Again, your point is lost on me.  You have avoided questions.  I never avoided answering questions.  Answering questions isn't scummy.

Quote from: GUNINANRUNIN on August 02, 2013, 11:10:40 pm

Quote

But regardless, the situation didn't change whatsoever.  My earlier case and accusations and questions were still applicable.  He still hadn't answered my case in any way, shape, or form.  I had already tried prodding him multiple times, and that didn't work.  I saw no reason to prod again at day end when not only would he might not have time to answer my prod, but when his answer probably wouldn't be satisfactory if he even acknowledged the prod at all.

I like how you were trying to make it sound like you were busy during those 24 hours that you didn't post, but in reality, you were aware of what was going on at that time, but instead chose not to post. Is that not correct?

4. Your accusation is...  What exactly?  And what about my answer is unsatisfactory? 

1.  Do you agree or disagree that Gun was being emotionally driven, and why?
2,3,4: Do you know what his points were?

1. I guess he was. I know from experience that it's very easy to become emotionally invested in mafia games, and I saw in a post from the General Discussion subforum that he said "The mafia subforum is a scary place". It looked like he had decided you were scum for emotional reasons then tried to build a case on you, instead of vice versa.
2. He was saying that you gave him advice to put up a smokescreen and dodge his accusations.
3. I think he was admitting a mistake, saying you actually had answered all the questions.
4. He seems to think that you were watching the thread those 24 hours, because you knew what happened during them. It doesn't make much sense.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day Two - Goblin Food - Three Replacements Requested
Post by: Okami No Rei on August 06, 2013, 08:12:55 pm

12 Hours remain in the day.

Day 2 ends on Wednesday, August 7 at 8:00pm CST

TheWetSheep (0) -
griffinpup (1) - Imperial Guardsman
Griffionday (0) -
Powder Miner (0) -
Imperial Guardsman (2) - griffinpup, Nerjin
Chink (1) - TheWetSheep
Nerjin (0) -

Not Voting - Powder Miner, Chink, Griffionday

Extend (0/3) -
Shorten (0/4) -

Griffionday has requested replacement.
TheWetSheep has requested replacement.
Powder Miner has requested replacement.

Lurker Tracker (http://www.ocf.berkeley.edu/~azhou/projects/LT/zt.py?topic=127764&start=0&msg=4432342&sort=time&numreplace=2&replaced0=Boy&replacer0=Chink&replaced1=TheWetSheep&replacer1=GUNINANRUNIN&player0=notquitethere&label0=dead&player1=DaveTheGrave&label1=dead&player2=Tiruin&label2=np&player3=Deathsword&label3=np&player4=zombie%20urist&label4=np&player5=mastahcheese&label5=np&numlabel=6)

griffinpup - Do not edit your posts.  This is your only warning.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day Two - Goblin Food - Three Replacements Requested
Post by: TheWetSheep on August 07, 2013, 09:41:17 am

Extend.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day Two - Goblin Food - Three Replacements Requested
Post by: Griffionday on August 07, 2013, 10:48:53 am

Extend

Quote from: griffinpup on August 06, 2013, 11:11:30 am

Quote from: TheWetSheep on August 06, 2013, 10:31:52 am

Quote from: griffinpup on August 05, 2013, 02:09:00 pm

GUN:
Please find time to respond to my post.

Did you not understand his post? He asked for a replacement, and said he had not time to keep up with the game. You have no right to ask this of someone who isn't in the game anymore.

I have every right.  Players asking for replacements have an obligation to continue playing to the best of their ability until such time as they are replaced.  Notice Griffionday still playing.  HE WAS STILL IN THE GAME.  But since he is now replaced, respond to my post and all unanswered questions.

Hahaha... No you don't have the right, I'm an exception in that I'm trying to not disrupt the flow and explicitly stated that I'll still be around to answer questions.  Note that I'm failing at that.

Quote from: griffinpup on August 05, 2013, 02:09:00 pm

Quote from: Griffionday on August 05, 2013, 01:37:17 am

I still don't see what was confusing about IG's reads.  They seemed rather straightforward to me.

This seemed straightforward?

Quote from: Imperial Guardsman on July 28, 2013, 11:36:57 am

Powderminer is activelurking from the look of it, but he is still asking good questions and actively trying to obtain information.
Town, leaning towards scum.

Yeah.  As I read it he sees Powder Miner as town; however, on the scum side of the town spectrum.  The second part qualifies the first, not replacing it.

Quote from: griffinpup on August 05, 2013, 02:09:00 pm

Obviously every single contradiction a player can make isn't scummy.  I'm not looking for those.  But let's say Player X day one has a super aggressive playstyle and tends to ignore accusations against them.  In day two however, he acts defensively, and only halfheartedly pursues targets.  I would argue that that is a scummy change of playstyle.  Also note the contradiction NQT did last Revolution.  He played up analysis of teams and votes far more then actual discussion, but then mentioned a viable scum strategy "supposedly" to initiate such discussion.  This slip up eventually led to the discovery that he was scum.

The first case I think is a fairly common sign of fatuige, which is more common in town than scum.  As for the NQT thing, I think it was him failing to satisfactory answer questions that exposed him.  A thought though: this would not have outed Nerjin, so your strategy is of limited utility.  (Not that my tunneling is any better).

Quote from: griffinpup on August 05, 2013, 02:09:00 pm

I heartily disagree.  If the point was to leave RVS as quickly as possible, you wouldn't ask questions applicable to mafia.  It may be good to leave the RVS phase quickly, but the point is to look for contradictions in what people say and do later in the game.

Uh, I totally would and do.  The questions let you see into their mind as it relates to the game, this lets you decide which people to start actually pressuring.  Finding contradictions between what someone says they will do and what they do is VERY different from finding contradictions in what they do from day to day, the latter of which is actually scummy.

Quote from: griffinpup on August 05, 2013, 02:09:00 pm

Quote from: Griffionday on August 05, 2013, 01:37:17 am

Saying: "What is my post frequency?" is a bullshit way of getting someone to admit that you are not lurking.  Prodding based on content you added to the game I could understand, but asking him to analyze the frequency of your posts seems needlessly defensive.

Wrong.  Making someone explain that they are wrong is always better then explaining why someone is.  This probably comes from the debater me though.

Asking him to analyze the frequency of my posts shouldn't of been a problem if he were telling the truth.  He would of already looked at that before making the accusation of lurking.  Only if he was lying about his motivation for voting me would my question make him do additional work.

I'm not saying explain to him why you aren't lurking, I'm saying only defending yourself based on posting frequency is stupid. 

So you're saying one should do heavy research before voting for someone based on a case?  I agree in theory, but in practice this means that votes like Nerjin's current one are going to be more common.  I prefer having a case on the person you wish to lynch over leaving your pressure vote on someone who hasn't responded.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day Two - Goblin Food - Three Replacements Requested
Post by: Rolepgeek on August 07, 2013, 10:50:10 am

I'll join as replacement.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day Two - Goblin Food - Three Replacements Requested
Post by: Griffionday on August 07, 2013, 10:51:30 am

Okami:

I know my posting isn't great, and I'm first on the list to be replaced, but I'm here enough that it'd possibly be better to replace Gun and Powder Miner first. 

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day Two - Goblin Food - Three Replacements Requested
Post by: Okami No Rei on August 07, 2013, 05:51:55 pm

Thank you, Griffionday.

Rolepgeek has replaced Powder Miner

SailFlame has replaced TheWetSheep

Day has been Mod-Extended by 48 Hours

Day 2 now ends on Friday, August 9 at 8:00pm CST

SailFlame (0) -
griffinpup (1) - Imperial Guardsman
Griffionday (0) -
Rolepgeek (0) -
Imperial Guardsman (2) - griffinpup, Nerjin
Chink (1) - SailFlame
Nerjin (0) -

Not Voting - Rolepgeek, Chink, Griffionday

Extend (0/3) -
Shorten (0/4) -

Griffionday has requested replacement.

Lurker Tracker (http://www.ocf.berkeley.edu/~azhou/projects/LT/zt.py?topic=127764&start=0&msg=4432342&sort=time&numreplace=4&replaced0=TheWetSheep&replacer0=GUNINANRUNIN&replaced1=GUNINANRUNIN&replacer1=SailFlame&replaced2=Boy&replacer2=Chink&replaced3=Powder%20Miner&replacer3=Rolepgeek&player0=Vector&label0=np&player1=notquitethere&label1=dead&player2=DaveTheGrave&label2=dead&player3=Tiruin&label3=np&player4=Deathsword&label4=np&player5=zombie%20urist&label5=np&player6=mastahcheese&label6=np&numlabel=7)

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day Two - Goblin Food - Replacement Requested
Post by: Scelly9 on August 07, 2013, 06:21:34 pm

((PTW))

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day Two - Goblin Food - Three Replacements Requested
Post by: griffinpup on August 07, 2013, 06:38:04 pm

Quote from: TheWetSheep on August 06, 2013, 01:49:12 pm

Griffpup: OK... trawling through the thread that much might take some time. But first: why did you edit this post (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=127764.msg4442642#msg4442642)? You know editing isn't allowed by now. *Checks time stamps* Five days later? Why?

That was pure accident.  I'm actually not sure what the edit was.  I don't ever remember editing it.

Quote from: Griffionday on August 07, 2013, 10:48:53 am

Quote from: griffinpup on August 06, 2013, 11:11:30 am

Quote from: TheWetSheep on August 06, 2013, 10:31:52 am

Quote from: griffinpup on August 05, 2013, 02:09:00 pm

GUN:
Please find time to respond to my post.

Did you not understand his post? He asked for a replacement, and said he had not time to keep up with the game. You have no right to ask this of someone who isn't in the game anymore.

I have every right.  Players asking for replacements have an obligation to continue playing to the best of their ability until such time as they are replaced.  Notice Griffionday still playing.  HE WAS STILL IN THE GAME.  But since he is now replaced, respond to my post and all unanswered questions.

Hahaha... No you don't have the right, I'm an exception in that I'm trying to not disrupt the flow and explicitly stated that I'll still be around to answer questions.  Note that I'm failing at that.

So I don't have the literal right to ask someone to respond to my post after they ask for replacement?

Quote from: Griffionday on August 07, 2013, 10:48:53 am

1. I'm not saying explain to him why you aren't lurking, I'm saying only defending yourself based on posting frequency is stupid. 

2. So you're saying one should do heavy research before voting for someone based on a case?  I agree in theory, but in practice this means that votes like Nerjin's current one are going to be more common.  I prefer having a case on the person you wish to lynch over leaving your pressure vote on someone who hasn't responded.

That obviously wasn't going to be my whole case.  That was mainly my precursor.  The fact that he refused to respond even to this kinda put a damper on my follow-up.

Those voting for an extend:
Why?

The new guys:
What's your fresh perspective and opinion on everyone here?
What's your opinion on the events that have happened so far?

IG:
My vote will stay on you until you produce any meaningful content.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day Two - Goblin Food - Replacement Requested
Post by: Rolepgeek on August 07, 2013, 07:15:17 pm

griffinpup
I'm still going through the thread, but at first glance, and when looking through the various posts he has made, I think Chink is a bit scummy. Right after him is Imperial Guardsman. For Imperial Guardsman, since Dave turned out to be Town, and from reading other people's 'reads' on him, I think it makes him a likely candidate. But Chink has been lurking a lot, with only ten posts, and his predecessor had even fewer. As well, his posts seem to be only answering questions; the questions he's asked are all asking who each person thinks is the scum(which in my view is scummy as it means you're trying to figure out if they're on to you, rather than truly pressuring them to see if you are), or once nitpicking griffinpup's question, which seemed silly, irrelevant, and like he was trying to start something where there was nothing(also scummy). However, I encounter a problem. If I vote Chink, it ties up the vote. If I vote IG, especially when Chink would be my first choice, it's bandwagoning, and just a poor decision as far as I know.

My opinion on events is even more vague, as, if IG is scum, then it probably went something along the lines of 'IG votes DavetheGrave randomly, DavetheGrave panics, and Ig seizes the opportunity to make him seem scummy so the lynch can be directed away from any potential scum-buddies. And it worked.' If he isn't, it's much the same, save that he seizes the opportunity because he thought Dave was scum and wanted to really see if he was. And he wasn't. He was just bad at this. And then background stuff that I've only been paying half-attention to because I don't know if I'll be able to keep it straight in my head. Especially with both Griffionday and griffinpup playing(THE NAMES SO SIMILAR).

Chink: To turn the question back on you, and add another, who you think is scum and why, and how come you haven't asked many questions?

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day Two - Goblin Food - Replacement Requested
Post by: TheWetSheep on August 07, 2013, 10:30:13 pm

(May I still post until SailFlame starts posting?)

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day Two - Goblin Food - Replacement Requested
Post by: Okami No Rei on August 07, 2013, 11:22:23 pm

I'll allow one final post to wrap up loose ends, but after that I'd prefer you let him take over.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day Two - Goblin Food - Three Replacements Requested
Post by: Griffionday on August 08, 2013, 12:14:54 am

Quote from: griffinpup on August 07, 2013, 06:38:04 pm

So I don't have the literal right to ask someone to respond to my post after they ask for replacement?

You don't have a right to expect an answer until they're replaced. 

Quote from: griffinpup on August 07, 2013, 06:38:04 pm

Quote from: Griffionday on August 07, 2013, 10:48:53 am

1. I'm not saying explain to him why you aren't lurking, I'm saying only defending yourself based on posting frequency is stupid. 

2. So you're saying one should do heavy research before voting for someone based on a case?  I agree in theory, but in practice this means that votes like Nerjin's current one are going to be more common.  I prefer having a case on the person you wish to lynch over leaving your pressure vote on someone who hasn't responded.

That obviously wasn't going to be my whole case.  That was mainly my precursor.  The fact that he refused to respond even to this kinda put a damper on my follow-up.

Care to explain what your follow up was?  If it's real it shouldn't require you to do any work...

Quote from: griffinpup on August 07, 2013, 06:38:04 pm

Those voting for an extend:
Why?

Because I don't see IG as scummy, just really bad at playing.  That being said, I wanted to not drag down the game if the rest of the town wants more time.  Note that the number of votes needed to extend was still three despite there being only 5 players who are not requesting replacement.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day Two - Goblin Food - Replacement Requested
Post by: Nerjin on August 08, 2013, 06:44:23 am

Unvote I just don't have much of a case right now. I'll try to post something of actual content tonight. Sorry I'm being a lousy IC right now.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day Two - Goblin Food - Three Replacements Requested
Post by: Okami No Rei on August 08, 2013, 06:54:13 am

37 hours remain in the day.

Day 2 ends on Friday, August 9 at 8:00pm CST

SailFlame (0) -
griffinpup (1) - Imperial Guardsman
Griffionday (0) -
Rolepgeek (0) -
Imperial Guardsman (1) - griffinpup
Chink (1) - SailFlame
Nerjin (0) -

Not Voting - Rolepgeek, Chink, Griffionday, Nerjin

Tie votes will result in a no-lynch.

Extend (0/3) -
Shorten (0/4) -

Griffionday has requested replacement.

Imperial Guardsman has been prodded.
Chink has been prodded.

Lurker Tracker (http://www.ocf.berkeley.edu/~azhou/projects/LT/zt.py?topic=127764&start=0&msg=4432342&sort=time&numreplace=4&replaced0=TheWetSheep&replacer0=GUNINANRUNIN&replaced1=GUNINANRUNIN&replacer1=SailFlame&replaced2=Boy&replacer2=Chink&replaced3=Powder%20Miner&replacer3=Rolepgeek&player0=Vector&label0=np&player1=notquitethere&label1=dead&player2=DaveTheGrave&label2=dead&player3=Tiruin&label3=np&player4=Deathsword&label4=np&player5=zombie%20urist&label5=np&player6=mastahcheese&label6=np&numlabel=7)

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day Two - Goblin Food - Replacement Requested
Post by: notquitethere on August 08, 2013, 07:04:02 am

Rolepgeek

Quote from: Rolepgeek on August 07, 2013, 07:15:17 pm

If I vote Chink, it ties up the vote. If I vote IG, especially when Chink would be my first choice, it's bandwagoning, and just a poor decision as far as I know.

Voting for someone who already has a lot of votes isn't necessarily bandwagoning. If you think someone is scum, make your argument and vote for them. If, near the end of the day, the person you think is scum won't be lynched, then it is better to use your vote to lynch the next scummiest player (especially when there are two scum left alive).

Everyone
Often when a day drags on people get fatigued and their play slips. Town: now is a good time to reread the thread, paying especial attention to your top scum picks. Question your fellow players about suspicious things they did before. Scum: don't get complacent. Make convincing sounding cases and think ahead to who you're going to NK and mislynch in nights and days to come; try to figure out which townsfolk are easiest to manipulate.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day Two - Goblin Food - Replacement Requested
Post by: Imperial Guardsman on August 08, 2013, 09:42:35 am

Back.
Unvote.
Griffinpup seems town.. for now. Ill check the posts and decide who to vote next.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day Two - Goblin Food - Replacement Requested
Post by: Chink on August 08, 2013, 10:30:08 am

Replacement Requested

Sorry, but I just can't expect to have the time for this for a while.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day Two - Goblin Food - Replacement Requested
Post by: Tiruin on August 08, 2013, 10:40:18 am

This needs a lot more activity.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day Two - Goblin Food - Three Replacements Requested
Post by: Okami No Rei on August 08, 2013, 05:49:07 pm

26 hours remain in the day.

Day 2 ends on Friday, August 9 at 8:00pm CST

SailFlame (0) -
griffinpup (0) -
Griffionday (0) -
Rolepgeek (0) -
Imperial Guardsman (1) - griffinpup
Chink (1) - SailFlame
Nerjin (0) -

Not Voting - Rolepgeek, Chink, Griffionday, Nerjin, Imperial Guardsman

Tie votes will result in a no-lynch.

Extend (0/3) -
Shorten (0/4) -

Griffionday has requested replacement.
Chink has requested replacement.

Lurker Tracker (http://www.ocf.berkeley.edu/~azhou/projects/LT/zt.py?topic=127764&start=0&msg=4432342&sort=time&numreplace=4&replaced0=TheWetSheep&replacer0=GUNINANRUNIN&replaced1=GUNINANRUNIN&replacer1=SailFlame&replaced2=Boy&replacer2=Chink&replaced3=Powder%20Miner&replacer3=Rolepgeek&player0=Vector&label0=np&player1=notquitethere&label1=dead&player2=DaveTheGrave&label2=dead&player3=Tiruin&label3=np&player4=Deathsword&label4=np&player5=zombie%20urist&label5=np&player6=mastahcheese&label6=np&numlabel=7)

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day Two - Goblin Food - Two Replacements Requested
Post by: birdy51 on August 09, 2013, 04:42:15 am

I shall opt to become a Replacement.

While I was not planning on playing a game for a little while, you guys need the extra hand right now. Let's see if I can do anything to shake up this cage...

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day Two - Goblin Food - Two Replacements Requested
Post by: Okami No Rei on August 09, 2013, 07:30:06 am

12 Hours remain in the day.

birdy51 has replaced Chink.

SailFlame has been prodded.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day Two - Goblin Food - Replacement Requested
Post by: Rolepgeek on August 09, 2013, 10:50:32 am

birdy12: Why do you think your predecessors have been so lurky? What do you think of the events so far? How scummy does Imperial Guardsman seem?

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day Two - Goblin Food - Replacement Requested
Post by: birdy51 on August 09, 2013, 04:07:07 pm

Quote from: Rolepgeek on August 09, 2013, 10:50:32 am

birdy12: Why do you think your predecessors have been so lurky? What do you think of the events so far? How scummy does Imperial Guardsman seem?

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Quote from: Chink on August 08, 2013, 10:30:08 am

Replacement Requested

Sorry, but I just can't expect to have the time for this for a while.

I believe *this* may have something to do with it. Lurking is quite easy when you don't have enough time to dedicate a proper post. It's the same way with Boy. Things come up. I was on the fence of joining this game due to not knowing how much time I could dedicate. However, at this point it looks like you need someone who is simply willing to post at all. >.<

As for your second question, there has been a ludicrous amount of replacements in this game. That alone is a fact that is rather daunting to consider. Then, we also have the relatively low activity rate, which is further compounding the issue. Put both of these facts together and we have a mess on our hands.

Now, as for IG, I find his behavior a bit repulsive. Mind my language, but he is a lazy ass in terms of actually supporting his opinions with logic. From what I have read so far, I certainly wouldn't mind being rid of him as his contributions to the game has been frighteningly low for the amount of times he has posted. He's like a vulture. Preying off of the corpses of the dead to fuel his own arguments. To use his own words... "He is either scum or absolute crap".

Also, feel free to just call me Birdy. It shall make your life easier. :P

Any other questions for me?

---

Statement and question time.

Imperial Guardsman: Support your arguments. Preferably in something longer than single sentence groups. Beyond the flimsy reasoning on the basis of a mislynch, you didn't seem to have a single good reason for holding your vote on Griffonpup besides the fact that two other players had already voted for him. Do explain yourself.

Nerjin: Do you know if you will be able to produce an argument for tonight? We could use your insight on the situation.

Also, as a side note we also have yet to see anything of Sailflame. I'm going to toss out a tentative extension, so we can see what his prospective on the game is when/if he decides to post.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day Two - Goblin Food - Replacement Requested
Post by: Imperial Guardsman on August 09, 2013, 04:45:50 pm

Unvote Griffinpup, Vote birdy
I really cant give any CURRENT reads until the game is back up.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day Two - Goblin Food - Replacement Requested
Post by: Okami No Rei on August 09, 2013, 06:01:29 pm

Day has been Mod Extended

Day 2 now ends on Monday, August 12 at 8:00pm CST

SailFlame has been Mod-Unvoted

SailFlame (0) -
griffinpup (0) -
Griffionday (0) -
Rolepgeek (0) -
Imperial Guardsman (2) - griffinpup, birdy51
birdy51 (2) - Rolepgeek, Imperial Guardsman
Nerjin (0) -

Not Voting - Rolepgeek, Griffionday, Nerjin, Imperial Guardsman, SailFlame

Extend (0/3) -
Shorten (0/4) -

Griffionday has requested replacement.
SailFlame requires replacement due to inactivity.

Lurker Tracker (http://www.ocf.berkeley.edu/~azhou/projects/LT/zt.py?topic=127764&start=0&msg=4432342&sort=time&numreplace=4&replaced0=TheWetSheep&replacer0=GUNINANRUNIN&replaced1=GUNINANRUNIN&replacer1=SailFlame&replaced2=Boy&replacer2=Chink&replaced3=Powder%20Miner&replacer3=Rolepgeek&player0=Vector&label0=np&player1=notquitethere&label1=dead&player2=DaveTheGrave&label2=dead&player3=Tiruin&label3=np&player4=Deathsword&label4=np&player5=zombie%20urist&label5=np&player6=mastahcheese&label6=np&numlabel=7)

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day Two - Goblin Food - Replacement Requested
Post by: Rolepgeek on August 09, 2013, 06:07:50 pm

Birdy: Now, what seemed scummy about your turn just then is that the turn is about to end, and you're causing it to be a tie, whilst continuing the actions of your predecessors in creating friction between yourself and Imperial Guard. That, as well as the fact that you 'want' to get rid of IG on principal, rather than wanting to get rid of him because he seems scummy.
I do understand that neither Boy nor Chink had the time to continue playing, but even before he had to go, he only made ten posts. That is very lurky, comparatively.

Unvote birdy12
Imperial Guardsman: Someone must go, or the town has a mess on it's hands. And you have been the second-most scummy player, in my view. And for a question: Who's seeming scummy, then?

FAKEEDIT: MY OH MY That was scummy. That seemed incredibly similar to OMGUS(which I think stands for OMG U Scared, right?). DAMN boy. You're definitely being voted.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day Two - Goblin Food - Two Replacements Required
Post by: Rolepgeek on August 09, 2013, 06:08:57 pm

To add to my reasoning for voting IG, he didn't give a reason for voting Birdy, and as such it seems like the two of them are trying to either tie up the vote, or fake an argument so that one can survive when the other flips scum.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day Two - Goblin Food - Two Replacements Required
Post by: birdy51 on August 09, 2013, 07:15:27 pm

Quote from: Imperial Guardsman on August 09, 2013, 04:45:50 pm

Unvote Griffinpup, Vote birdy
I really cant give any CURRENT reads until the game is back up.

What a fantastic OMGUS...

Now, in case you have not gotten it through your skull, I was not asking for your current reads.

I want your old reads immediately.

Quote from: Rolepgeek on August 09, 2013, 06:07:50 pm

Birdy: Now, what seemed scummy about your turn just then is that the turn is about to end, and you're causing it to be a tie, whilst continuing the actions of your predecessors in creating friction between yourself and Imperial Guard. That, as well as the fact that you 'want' to get rid of IG on principal, rather than wanting to get rid of him because he seems scummy.
I do understand that neither Boy nor Chink had the time to continue playing, but even before he had to go, he only made ten posts. That is very lurky, comparatively.

You neglect to notice that I voted to extend the game. We're still missing a good chunk of input from half the players and I do not want to push ourselves to a hasty decision. Thus I am glad that we have this extension. In fact, now that I think about it... I'm actually a bit surprised you didn't throw out an extension vote earlier when you had the time to address me.

Did you want the Day to end early?

Now, as for IG, I did not vote for him because I wanted him lynched, I voted him because I wanted answers. There is a hell of a lot he hasn't answered for in this game that people have simply ignored. The man flips more often than a pancake and doesn't provide a single snippet as to why. This either makes him a very stupid Townie who can't make up his mind, or a piece of scum that doesn't have the slightest idea of what he's doing. I am trying to figure which category he falls into.

So in other words, no I am not voting on principal. It is a policy vote.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day Two - Goblin Food - Two Replacements Required
Post by: Rolepgeek on August 09, 2013, 08:23:43 pm

Birdy: I didn't vote extension because I saw no point. I know who I think is scummy. Extensions are to allow the players time to find who is scummy, as far as I know. And voting for someone when you don't want them lynched, in all honesty, sounds like you want to make it seem as though there's an altercation when there isn't. Now, don't get me wrong, I find him scummy as well, I just don't take your semi-agreement to mean you're town. If you would give examples of what you're talking about for what he's done, then I might be willing to look at you in a different light. But for now, voting for him because you can't decide/figure out whether he's scum or not, when you don't want him lynched, is simply a poor idea, and a scummy one at that.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day Two - Goblin Food - Two Replacements Required
Post by: Griffionday on August 10, 2013, 01:42:18 am

Quote from: Rolepgeek on August 09, 2013, 06:07:50 pm

FAKEEDIT: MY OH MY That was scummy. That seemed incredibly similar to OMGUS(which I think stands for OMG U Scared, right?). DAMN boy. You're definitely being voted.

OMG U Suck actually, it's voting for someone because they are pressuring you.  What IG did is scummy, but not necessarily OMGUS as it did tie the vote that was otherwise against him.

A indulgence in pessimism

Reads before you personally have interacted with someone are deadly for town.  And they WILL kill us all.  Have a plan to pressure every one, more than once if you've the time, make sure you've talked to everyone and THEN formulate your reads.  Comments such as: "What's your fresh perspective and opinion on everyone here?" are stupid and focus attention to the wrong things.  The goal shouldn't be focusing on the past scouring the thread for the tiny tells that must be there, but on developing your reads on people through interaction with them.  If you think you have a read on someone without interacting with them, assume it's put there deliberately, get suspicious, and talk to them.  Try to avoid flailing randomly, but at the very least put in the footwork.

With this in mind time to start these interactions:

Griffinpup: Why are you focusing exclusively on the past in this game when you could be generating your own material to read?  Interact with everyone, and once you've a feeling for them, move on and talk to someone else.  Seriously.  Your emphasis on reads, events, and past oriented hunting is equally detrimental to the game as IG.  I'm glad you're focusing exclusively on easy lynches (it makes you kinda obviously scum though), but don't you think you should question the more difficult ones as well?  I can guarantee there's far more satisfaction to be found there.

Rolepgeek: I'm glad you know who you think is scummy.  Please one of them and one person you think is town, and try to deepen your read on both of them.  In the mean time, do you think hiding as scum is easy or difficult?  What sorts of things would make it more or less difficult?

Birdy: Do you disagree with my previous comments? If so why, if not, why are you asking for reads?

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day Two - Goblin Food - Two Replacements Required
Post by: Griffionday on August 10, 2013, 01:51:01 am

EBWOP:

Quote from: Griffionday on August 10, 2013, 01:42:18 am

Rolepgeek: I'm glad you know who you think is scummy.  Please one of them and one person you think is town, and try to deepen your read on both of them.  In the mean time, do you think hiding as scum is easy or difficult?  What sorts of things would make it more or less difficult?

I meant:

Please choose one of them and one person you think is town, and try to deepen your read on both of them.

Mod: Thank you for the extend, I'll try to get my act together until I'm replaced.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day Two - Goblin Food - Two Replacements Required
Post by: birdy51 on August 10, 2013, 08:18:41 am

Rolepgeek:

Quote from: Rolepgeek on August 09, 2013, 08:23:43 pm

Birdy: I didn't vote extension because I saw no point. I know who I think is scummy. Extensions are to allow the players time to find who is scummy, as far as I know. And voting for someone when you don't want them lynched, in all honesty, sounds like you want to make it seem as though there's an altercation when there isn't. Now, don't get me wrong, I find him scummy as well, I just don't take your semi-agreement to mean you're town. If you would give examples of what you're talking about for what he's done, then I might be willing to look at you in a different light. But for now, voting for him because you can't decide/figure out whether he's scum or not, when you don't want him lynched, is simply a poor idea, and a scummy one at that.

I'm still not entirely following you. While you may have your own ideas on who is scummy, there are many others who simply haven't contributed, whether out of time management or absence. Leaving out their voices leaves room for error. And we are missing a lot of voices right now.

As for the examples you requested. Imperial Guardsman, you will want to read this as well as it pertains to you.

Quote from: Imperial Guardsman on July 31, 2013, 09:19:35 am

Yeah, we remember day 1 griffinpup

Remember what from Day 1? The mislynch?

From my own experience, I have found mislynches are not rare occurrences. They happen whether we like it or not.

Quote from: Imperial Guardsman on August 04, 2013, 05:04:25 pm

Until you can prove yourself innocent from your actions on day one, the vote stays.

Note how he still fails to specify any specific examples. IG uses a blanket term, "your actions". No specifics, just "your actions".  Implying that Griffinpup did do something wrong… But he doesn't have the slightest clue what that action is.

Thus, how can he expect Griffinpup to effectively defend himself?

Quote from: Imperial Guardsman on August 08, 2013, 09:42:35 am

Back.
Unvote.
Griffinpup seems town.. for now. Ill check the posts and decide who to vote next.

And now, suddenly Griffinpup is Town FOR NOW, without a single whisper about how he arrived at this miraculous conclusion.


Frankly, his reasoning is baffling me right now and I don't have much to go off of, save for the fact that he has seemingly no clue what he is doing. Not supporting your arguments is a terrible policy to uphold, no matter what role you play. So at the very least I want to see IG put some kind of effort forth in his gameplay from here on out.

This is after all a BM. I'm still in this game to win, but I also want to see players improve. Starting with him by forcing him to attend to his past actions or fall. The ball is in his court now. Whether he wants to take the time defend himself is his decision.

---

Griffionday

Quote from: Griffionday on August 10, 2013, 01:42:18 am

Quote from: Rolepgeek on August 09, 2013, 06:07:50 pm

FAKEEDIT: MY OH MY That was scummy. That seemed incredibly similar to OMGUS(which I think stands for OMG U Scared, right?). DAMN boy. You're definitely being voted.

OMG U Suck actually, it's voting for someone because they are pressuring you.  What IG did is scummy, but not necessarily OMGUS as it did tie the vote that was otherwise against him.

A indulgence in pessimism

Reads before you personally have interacted with someone are deadly for town.  And they WILL kill us all.  Have a plan to pressure every one, more than once if you've the time, make sure you've talked to everyone and THEN formulate your reads.  Comments such as: "What's your fresh perspective and opinion on everyone here?" are stupid and focus attention to the wrong things.  The goal shouldn't be focusing on the past scouring the thread for the tiny tells that must be there, but on developing your reads on people through interaction with them.  If you think you have a read on someone without interacting with them, assume it's put there deliberately, get suspicious, and talk to them.  Try to avoid flailing randomly, but at the very least put in the footwork.

With this in mind time to start these interactions:

Griffinpup: Why are you focusing exclusively on the past in this game when you could be generating your own material to read?  Interact with everyone, and once you've a feeling for them, move on and talk to someone else.  Seriously.  Your emphasis on reads, events, and past oriented hunting is equally detrimental to the game as IG.  I'm glad you're focusing exclusively on easy lynches (it makes you kinda obviously scum though), but don't you think you should question the more difficult ones as well?  I can guarantee there's far more satisfaction to be found there.

Rolepgeek: I'm glad you know who you think is scummy.  Please one of them and one person you think is town, and try to deepen your read on both of them.  In the mean time, do you think hiding as scum is easy or difficult?  What sorts of things would make it more or less difficult?

Birdy: Do you disagree with my previous comments? If so why, if not, why are you asking for reads?

I do agree with what you have said, at least in principal. Too much focus on the past is dangerous.

However, there are some questions that have yet to be answered. Which is why I want  IG to respond in a meaningful manner. His past behavior has been scummy as hell, but I cannot say with full confidence whether that is because he is scum or just a very flippant townie.

Until that question gets answered, it’s going to be difficult to move forward onto more beneficial conversation.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day Two - Goblin Food - Two Replacements Required
Post by: webadict on August 10, 2013, 06:35:34 pm

I suppose I could (temporarily) replace a player. It appears replacements are coming and going quickly, and in an attempt to further the game, I would be willing to replace.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day Two - Goblin Food - Two Replacements Required
Post by: Griffionday on August 11, 2013, 06:38:52 pm

Nerjin: Please stop lurking or at least post a quick disclaimer giving us an eta of when you'll be back in the game.

Birdy: Why are you exclusively focusing on a player who is unlikely to be willing to cooperate and play?  I've no particular issue with your case on IG; however, even when you're talking to Rolepgeek your focus is entirely on IG rather than providing anything resembling a dialogue with our new player.  Why are you avoiding conversation?

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day Two - Goblin Food - Two Replacements Required
Post by: Nerjin on August 11, 2013, 07:00:11 pm

I might not be coming back actually. This is a low probability thing as I'm pretty sure I'll be coming back around the 13th but for now I don't have enough time for mafia.

So uh... Request Replacement on a Condition I'm only requesting replacement if you absolutely CANNOT wait until the 13th.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day Two - Goblin Food - Two Replacements Required
Post by: Griffionday on August 11, 2013, 07:02:24 pm

Quote from: Nerjin on August 11, 2013, 07:00:11 pm

I might not be coming back actually. This is a low probability thing as I'm pretty sure I'll be coming back around the 13th but for now I don't have enough time for mafia.

So uh... Request Replacement on a Condition I'm only requesting replacement if you absolutely CANNOT wait until the 13th.

Looks at date... Yeah that should be fine, thanks.  Good luck with whatever it is that is taking your time.

Extend

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day Two - Goblin Food - Two Replacements Required
Post by: Rolepgeek on August 11, 2013, 07:07:36 pm

Extend

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day Two - Goblin Food - Two Replacements Required
Post by: birdy51 on August 11, 2013, 08:38:43 pm

Quote from: Griffionday on August 11, 2013, 06:38:52 pm

Birdy: Why are you exclusively focusing on a player who is unlikely to be willing to cooperate and play?  I've no particular issue with your case on IG; however, even when you're talking to Rolepgeek your focus is entirely on IG rather than providing anything resembling a dialogue with our new player.  Why are you avoiding conversation?

Griffionday:

I am not quite understanding where you see me avoiding conversation. IG was a focus because Rolepgeek wanted me to specify, something which I had done in the past.

Further, as to why I am focused on IG, there is not many players in this game to make a case against. Griffinpup is on vacation. Nerjin has recently had something come up. Sailflame never entered the game at all. You have also said that you are looking to be replaced, so I am hesitant to bother you with questions.

That only leaves two players besides myself as "active". Both of whom I have been trying to communicate with at some level. IG has been my main focus, as he struck as a player exhibiting the oddest behavior.

Rolepgeek:

I've noticed something. You've mentioned my own predecessors, Chink and Boy quite a bit, but you've never had an occasion to bring up Powder Miner. How would you define his actions in this game?

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day Two - Goblin Food - Two Replacements Required
Post by: birdy51 on August 11, 2013, 08:40:27 pm

Also, I shall throw out an Extend vote as well.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day Two - Goblin Food - Two Replacements Required
Post by: Rolepgeek on August 11, 2013, 09:22:01 pm

Birdy: I didn't mention him, as he is my predecessor, and as such I know what his alignment is. I have no need to inspect his actions. Since you ask me to, however, I suppose I will.

From what I've seen, it seems like he's been trying to help out the new players, and asked a few questions, though with DavetheGrave it's hard to find fault with him for not voting anyone else for the day. And that's about it, since then had to drop out/go on a trip.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day Two - Goblin Food - Two Replacements Required
Post by: Griffionday on August 12, 2013, 02:50:54 am

Quote from: birdy51 on August 11, 2013, 08:38:43 pm

I am not quite understanding where you see me avoiding conversation. IG was a focus because Rolepgeek wanted me to specify, something which I had done in the past.

Further, as to why I am focused on IG, there is not many players in this game to make a case against. Griffinpup is on vacation. Nerjin has recently had something come up. Sailflame never entered the game at all. You have also said that you are looking to be replaced, so I am hesitant to bother you with questions.

That only leaves two players besides myself as "active". Both of whom I have been trying to communicate with at some level. IG has been my main focus, as he struck as a player exhibiting the oddest behavior.

Firstly, while do I appreciate your consideration, I have also said that I'm sticking around to allow people to ask me questions; what I'd rather NOT be doing is pressing cases, hence why I've not voted, but the utter lack of sensible play in this game means I need to step in some. 

What I'm seeing though is that of your two questions to Rolepgeek that he can honestly answer, only one seems to lead anywhere into a analysis of him.  Your fist question "Any more questions for me?" (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=127764.msg4479614#msg4479614) comes after a defense of your predecessors actions (which is fair) but doesn't really counter analyze Rolepgeek.  Your one question that has some depth "Did you want the day to end early?" (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=127764.msg4480248#msg4480248) isn't followed up with any force.  You mention that his answer was confusing, which is a valid point, but you lack conviction behind your argument.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day Two - Goblin Food - Replacement Requested
Post by: Okami No Rei on August 12, 2013, 05:37:39 am

webadict has replaced SailFlame

Day has been extended.

Day 2 now ends on Wednesday, August 14 at 8:00pm CST

webadict (0) -
griffinpup (0) -
Griffionday (0) -
Rolepgeek (0) -
Imperial Guardsman (3) - griffinpup, birdy51, Rolepgeek
birdy51 (1) - Imperial Guardsman
Nerjin (0) -

Not Voting - Griffionday, Nerjin, webadict

Extend (0/3) -
Shorten (0/4) -

Griffionday has requested replacement.

Lurker Tracker (http://www.ocf.berkeley.edu/~azhou/projects/LT/zt.py?topic=127764&start=0&msg=4432342&sort=time&numreplace=4&replaced0=TheWetSheep&replacer0=GUNINANRUNIN&replaced1=GUNINANRUNIN&replacer1=SailFlame&replaced2=Boy&replacer2=Chink&replaced3=Powder%20Miner&replacer3=Rolepgeek&player0=Vector&label0=np&player1=notquitethere&label1=dead&player2=DaveTheGrave&label2=dead&player3=Tiruin&label3=np&player4=Deathsword&label4=np&player5=zombie%20urist&label5=np&player6=mastahcheese&label6=np&numlabel=7)

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day Two - Goblin Food - Two Replacements Required
Post by: webadict on August 12, 2013, 07:20:47 am

Oh geez. You guys have talked a lot. Anyone want to sum up what's been said? Or how about everyone? That way, I can get a good bias check on y'all.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day Two - Goblin Food - Replacement Requested
Post by: birdy51 on August 12, 2013, 08:09:19 pm

Rolepgeek:

Quote from: Rolepgeek on August 11, 2013, 09:22:01 pm

Birdy: I didn't mention him, as he is my predecessor, and as such I know what his alignment is. I have no need to inspect his actions. Since you ask me to, however, I suppose I will.

From what I've seen, it seems like he's been trying to help out the new players, and asked a few questions, though with DavetheGrave it's hard to find fault with him for not voting anyone else for the day. And that's about it, since then had to drop out/go on a trip.

I'm surprised you didn't find it a bit odd that he simply voted DavetheGrave and hit the road. Granted, he had his reasons and obligations. But, if he was no longer able to be active in the game, why did he allow his vote to linger? What would he have gained from it?

Here's my theory. I think he voted against him, because he knew DavetheGrave was a safe, easy lynch. So he secured it, and then headed off into whatever business he had to attend to.

What say you in response?

Griffionday:

Quote from: Griffionday on August 12, 2013, 02:50:54 am

Quote from: birdy51 on August 11, 2013, 08:38:43 pm

I am not quite understanding where you see me avoiding conversation. IG was a focus because Rolepgeek wanted me to specify, something which I had done in the past.

Further, as to why I am focused on IG, there is not many players in this game to make a case against. Griffinpup is on vacation. Nerjin has recently had something come up. Sailflame never entered the game at all. You have also said that you are looking to be replaced, so I am hesitant to bother you with questions.

That only leaves two players besides myself as "active". Both of whom I have been trying to communicate with at some level. IG has been my main focus, as he struck as a player exhibiting the oddest behavior.

Firstly, while do I appreciate your consideration, I have also said that I'm sticking around to allow people to ask me questions; what I'd rather NOT be doing is pressing cases, hence why I've not voted, but the utter lack of sensible play in this game means I need to step in some. 

What I'm seeing though is that of your two questions to Rolepgeek that he can honestly answer, only one seems to lead anywhere into a analysis of him.  Your fist question "Any more questions for me?" (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=127764.msg4479614#msg4479614) comes after a defense of your predecessors actions (which is fair) but doesn't really counter analyze Rolepgeek.  Your one question that has some depth "Did you want the day to end early?" (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=127764.msg4480248#msg4480248) isn't followed up with any force.  You mention that his answer was confusing, which is a valid point, but you lack conviction behind your argument.

The first question was not meant to analyze Rolepgeek. If he had any other questions for me, I did not want him to be afraid to ask. As to your second point, his response made sense. I didn't really detect anything fishy about his response, so I let the issue drop.

However, you've made me curious. What is striking you as bad play right now?

Webadict:

Quote from: webadict on August 12, 2013, 07:20:47 am

Oh geez. You guys have talked a lot. Anyone want to sum up what's been said? Or how about everyone? That way, I can get a good bias check on y'all.

I don't think we've talked that much, have we? Since I've been in the game, there has only had some light discussion. To sum things up in a short way...


Rolepgeek suspects me of being scum based on the actions of my predecessors Chink and Boy in relation to my own actions now. He is currently voting IG for his scummy nature.

I'm struggling to put a case together and have been mildy flailing. I voted IG to try to get him to justify his earlier behavior, but have had no luck so far.

Griffionday is participating from the wings, commenting and questioning us both on our play styles, but he has not been seriously questioned by either of us. In addition, he's currently seeking a replacement due to being busy, and is thus reluctant to press any cases.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day Two - Goblin Food - Replacement Requested
Post by: webadict on August 12, 2013, 08:13:00 pm

Well, there's 31 pages, so that's a lot of posts, and therefore a lot of talking. Is everyone just super quiet now?

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day Two - Goblin Food - Replacement Requested
Post by: birdy51 on August 12, 2013, 08:27:04 pm

Quote from: webadict on August 12, 2013, 08:13:00 pm

Well, there's 31 pages, so that's a lot of posts, and therefore a lot of talking. Is everyone just super quiet now?

Ah, I see what you mean now. I should have asked how far back you wanted me to go. For now, yes, it has been relatively quiet.

From what I understand though, the first few days were somewhat crazy, as they usually are. There was quite a bit of discussion and debate, with Griffinpup, Imperial Guardsman, and DavetheGrave being the major targets of the lynch. It ended in the mislynch of DavetheGrave, whose voting patterns caught the ire of the Town.

Day 2 continued in the same way, such that Griffinpup and Imperial Guardsman were still the main subjects of ire. That was however until we hit a wall of replacements. Things have slowed down significantly since then, as several players have either left on trips, are busy, or have been otherwise distracted. About this time, both me and Rolepgeek have entered the game as replacements for older players.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day Two - Goblin Food - Replacement Requested
Post by: webadict on August 12, 2013, 08:51:05 pm

Okay, so do you have a case for IG?

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day Two - Goblin Food - Replacement Requested
Post by: birdy51 on August 12, 2013, 09:15:26 pm

Bit less of a case, and more of an accusation.

For background information, Griffinpup was targeted early on in the day by Griffionday, Gun, and IG. Imperial Guardsman was the third voter, but did not give strong reasoning as to why he was voting Griffinpup.  Here is what I compiled of my own thoughts on the subject:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Quote from: birdy51 on August 12, 2013, 08:51:05 pm

Imperial Guardsman: Support your arguments. Preferably in something longer than single sentence groups. Beyond the flimsy reasoning on the basis of a mislynch, you didn't seem to have a single good reason for holding your vote on Griffonpup besides the fact that two other players had already voted for him. Do explain yourself.

Quote from: birdy51 on August 10, 2013, 08:18:41 am

As for the examples you requested. Imperial Guardsman, you will want to read this as well as it pertains to you.

Quote from: Imperial Guardsman on July 31, 2013, 09:19:35 am

Yeah, we remember day 1 griffinpup

Remember what from Day 1? The mislynch?

From my own experience, I have found mislynches are not rare occurrences. They happen whether we like it or not.

Quote from: Imperial Guardsman on August 04, 2013, 05:04:25 pm

Until you can prove yourself innocent from your actions on day one, the vote stays.

Note how he still fails to specify any specific examples. IG uses a blanket term, "your actions". No specifics, just "your actions".  Implying that Griffinpup did do something wrong… But he doesn't have the slightest clue what that action is.

Thus, how can he expect Griffinpup to effectively defend himself?

Quote from: Imperial Guardsman on August 08, 2013, 09:42:35 am

Back.
Unvote.
Griffinpup seems town.. for now. Ill check the posts and decide who to vote next.

And now, suddenly Griffinpup is Town FOR NOW, without a single whisper about how he arrived at this miraculous conclusion.


Frankly, his reasoning is baffling me right now and I don't have much to go off of, save for the fact that he has seemingly no clue what he is doing. Not supporting your arguments is a terrible policy to uphold, no matter what role you play. So at the very least I want to see IG put some kind of effort forth in his gameplay from here on out.

This is after all a BM. I'm still in this game to win, but I also want to see players improve. Starting with him by forcing him to attend to his past actions or fall. The ball is in his court now. Whether he wants to take the time defend himself is his decision.

However, given that his response was less than adequate, I am caught between wondering if he's just a poor townie or if he has more malicious intentions. After voting for me, he has since disappeared off the face of the earth.

I'm beginning to wonder if I am wasting my vote by holding it on him.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day Two - Goblin Food - Replacement Requested
Post by: webadict on August 12, 2013, 09:23:16 pm

That first quote of your leads to my post? What?

I can't accurately judge your position without seeing his argument, but I don't know where your quote came from (and I don't really want to search for it among all of the posts.)

So, I'm not sure what happened.

But, where is everyone else? Geez...

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day Two - Goblin Food - Replacement Requested
Post by: Nerjin on August 12, 2013, 09:36:48 pm

Good news! I'm coming back! Tomorrow... But I will be doing that. Soon.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day Two - Goblin Food - Replacement Requested
Post by: birdy51 on August 13, 2013, 04:54:29 am

Quote from: webadict on August 12, 2013, 09:23:16 pm

That first quote of your leads to my post? What?

I can't accurately judge your position without seeing his argument, but I don't know where your quote came from (and I don't really want to search for it among all of the posts.)

So, I'm not sure what happened.

But, where is everyone else? Geez...

Oh bah. I do not work well late.

Let's try this again...

First this was my original argument.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Quote from: birdy51 on August 09, 2013, 04:07:07 pm

Imperial Guardsman: Support your arguments. Preferably in something longer than single sentence groups. Beyond the flimsy reasoning on the basis of a mislynch, you didn't seem to have a single good reason for holding your vote on Griffonpup besides the fact that two other players had already voted for him. Do explain yourself.

His response.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Quote from: Imperial Guardsman on August 09, 2013, 04:45:50 pm

Unvote Griffinpup, Vote birdy
I really cant give any CURRENT reads until the game is back up.

My own counter response.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Quote from: birdy51 on August 09, 2013, 07:15:27 pm

Quote from: Imperial Guardsman on August 09, 2013, 04:45:50 pm

Unvote Griffinpup, Vote birdy
I really cant give any CURRENT reads until the game is back up.

What a fantastic OMGUS...

Now, in case you have not gotten it through your skull, I was not asking for your current reads.

I want your old reads immediately.

And my later clarifications on the subject.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Quote from: birdy51 on August 10, 2013, 08:18:41 am

As for the examples you requested {To Rolepgeek}. Imperial Guardsman, you will want to read this as well as it pertains to you.

Quote from: Imperial Guardsman on July 31, 2013, 09:19:35 am

Yeah, we remember day 1 griffinpup

Remember what from Day 1? The mislynch?

From my own experience, I have found mislynches are not rare occurrences. They happen whether we like it or not.

Quote from: Imperial Guardsman on August 04, 2013, 05:04:25 pm

Until you can prove yourself innocent from your actions on day one, the vote stays.

Note how he still fails to specify any specific examples. IG uses a blanket term, "your actions". No specifics, just "your actions".  Implying that Griffinpup did do something wrong… But he doesn't have the slightest clue what that action is.

Thus, how can he expect Griffinpup to effectively defend himself?

Quote from: Imperial Guardsman on August 08, 2013, 09:42:35 am

Back.
Unvote.
Griffinpup seems town.. for now. Ill check the posts and decide who to vote next.

And now, suddenly Griffinpup is Town FOR NOW, without a single whisper about how he arrived at this miraculous conclusion.


Frankly, his reasoning is baffling me right now and I don't have much to go off of, save for the fact that he has seemingly no clue what he is doing. Not supporting your arguments is a terrible policy to uphold, no matter what role you play. So at the very least I want to see IG put some kind of effort forth in his gameplay from here on out.

This is after all a BM. I'm still in this game to win, but I also want to see players improve. Starting with him by forcing him to attend to his past actions or fall. The ball is in his court now. Whether he wants to take the time defend himself is his decision.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day Two - Goblin Food - Replacement Requested
Post by: webadict on August 13, 2013, 08:00:37 am

Yeah uh... what is he doing? That's just a silly play style, and an incredibly scummy one at that.

And why did people unvote him? His reasoning really WAS terrible, and he complains about OMGUS and then OMGUSes you? Man, I don't even.

Also, Vector offered to replace back there. You should take her up on that offer. She's right, it's better to replace with someone with experience than to not replace at all.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day Two - Goblin Food - Replacement Requested
Post by: Rolepgeek on August 13, 2013, 10:38:16 am

You don't give many specifics either. You are specific, but you really haven't quoted much, or done much beyond saying he's done these things. I haven't either, but there's about ten posts to go through to find what I'm talking about, versus 40 or more from IG.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day Two - Goblin Food - Replacement Requested
Post by: webadict on August 13, 2013, 12:51:58 pm

Quote from: Rolepgeek on August 13, 2013, 10:38:16 am

You don't give many specifics either. You are specific, but you really haven't quoted much, or done much beyond saying he's done these things. I haven't either, but there's about ten posts to go through to find what I'm talking about, versus 40 or more from IG.

Are you talking to me? I'm not sure.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day Two - Goblin Food - Replacement Requested
Post by: Rolepgeek on August 13, 2013, 01:23:55 pm

Sorry, was talking to birdy12.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day Two - Goblin Food - Replacement Requested
Post by: webadict on August 13, 2013, 02:08:04 pm

Quote from: Rolepgeek on August 13, 2013, 01:23:55 pm

Sorry, was talking to birdy12.

Ah, well in that case, I disagree. If you simply look back, Imperial Guardsman votes for (someone I forgot and don't feel like checking right now) without any reasoning behind it. That is what prompts this interaction.

It's not about who's done more or done what. You can do the most as scum. Activity doesn't prove scummitude. Imperial Guardsman refused to give a reason behind his vote, and when prompted, he voted the one asking.

So, why is that acceptable to you?

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day Two - Goblin Food
Post by: Nerjin on August 13, 2013, 03:22:06 pm

Quote from: Imperial Guardsman on July 31, 2013, 09:19:35 am

Yeah, we remember day 1 griffinpup

Quote from: Imperial Guardsman on August 04, 2013, 05:04:25 pm

Until you can prove yourself innocent from your actions on day one, the vote stays.

Remember what exactly? This sorta looked like a Bandwagon since there were 2 people already on GriffPup and then...

Quote from: Imperial Guardsman on August 04, 2013, 10:12:54 pm

Alright.
I voted you to see what you would do.
OMGUS?

Still didn't really have a case. The OMGUS would be a fair example BUT Griffpup voted you due to you not having a case and giving him a losing proposition. You CAN'T provide examples of yourself being town without looking like a super heavy scum. At least in my experience.

Quote from: Imperial Guardsman on August 09, 2013, 04:45:50 pm

Unvote Griffinpup, Vote birdy
I really cant give any CURRENT reads until the game is back up.

Not true at all. You never seem to have reads. You've been asked a few times and each time you've given the excuse of "I don't have any." near the end of Day 1 and now you're saying it's because the game isn't being played? Your ideas of players don't go away when the game loses some steam. Imperial Guardsman this post is what told me something was up. Plus the OMGUS.

---

In the end I've seen this sorta behavior before. You're active-lurking. You've posted A LOT but your posts are generally bare of content. Post your reads NOW.

---

@All Other Players: I apologize for my absense. I've been a somewhat lousy IC due to them but I'm back and should be staying. Don't worry too much about all the replacements. Yeah it makes it hard to get a consistent read and they tend to favor the person replacing in due to the constant "I don't know why they did it." argument they can put out [which is often VERY true]. BUT you now have someone with an outsider perspective who might pick up on something you missed in the heat of the moment.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day Two - Goblin Food - Replacement Requested
Post by: Vector on August 13, 2013, 03:23:39 pm

Quote from: webadict on August 13, 2013, 08:00:37 am

Also, Vector offered to replace back there. You should take her up on that offer. She's right, it's better to replace with someone with experience than to not replace at all.

That's not the mod's fault--I told him I was busy.

It's under consideration, but I'm under a little more stress I can handle right now.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day Two - Goblin Food - Replacement Requested
Post by: webadict on August 13, 2013, 03:26:58 pm

Quote from: Vector on August 13, 2013, 03:23:39 pm

Quote from: webadict on August 13, 2013, 08:00:37 am

Also, Vector offered to replace back there. You should take her up on that offer. She's right, it's better to replace with someone with experience than to not replace at all.

That's not the mod's fault--I told him I was busy.

It's under consideration, but I'm under a little more stress I can handle right now.

Ah, my bad.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day Two - Goblin Food - Replacement Requested
Post by: birdy51 on August 13, 2013, 03:56:51 pm

Webadict:

Quote from: webadict on August 13, 2013, 08:00:37 am

Yeah uh... what is he doing? That's just a silly play style, and an incredibly scummy one at that.

And why did people unvote him? His reasoning really WAS terrible, and he complains about OMGUS and then OMGUSes you? Man, I don't even.

Million dollar question...

As to the second question, I would say the chaotic elements of the first day contributed to his survival. There was a lot of discussion on a plethora of many different subjects all at once. That's not to say people didn't vote for him, but his game was not a focus point for anyone.

Rolepgeek:

Quote from: Rolepgeek on August 13, 2013, 10:38:16 am

You don't give many specifics either. You are specific, but you really haven't quoted much, or done much beyond saying he's done these things. I haven't either, but there's about ten posts to go through to find what I'm talking about, versus 40 or more from IG.

Quotes.

Quotes will be the absolute death of me some day. They continuously thwart me at every turn, threatening to undermine my sanity...

Luckily though, you don't have to go through 40 of his posts to figure out where I am drawing my information from. I'm only drawing from the posts of Day 2, as that is when I have been most active. In addition, I try to quote only as much as I need to, as mass quoting can be a bit difficult to read.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day Two - Goblin Food
Post by: webadict on August 13, 2013, 06:39:12 pm

Quote from: Nerjin on August 13, 2013, 03:22:06 pm

Not true at all. You never seem to have reads. You've been asked a few times and each time you've given the excuse of "I don't have any." near the end of Day 1 and now you're saying it's because the game isn't being played? Your ideas of players don't go away when the game loses some steam. Imperial Guardsman this post is what told me something was up. Plus the OMGUS.

---

In the end I've seen this sorta behavior before. You're active-lurking. You've posted A LOT but your posts are generally bare of content. Post your reads NOW.

---

@All Other Players: I apologize for my absense. I've been a somewhat lousy IC due to them but I'm back and should be staying. Don't worry too much about all the replacements. Yeah it makes it hard to get a consistent read and they tend to favor the person replacing in due to the constant "I don't know why they did it." argument they can put out [which is often VERY true]. BUT you now have someone with an outsider perspective who might pick up on something you missed in the heat of the moment.

What would make you unvote Imperial Guardsman?

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day Two - Goblin Food - Replacement Requested
Post by: Nerjin on August 13, 2013, 08:36:11 pm

Well at the time the case just wasn't strong and, I'll admit, I wasn't giving this as much attention as I should have. BUT on re-read some stuff I had seen as "Meh whatever..." seemed a lot more sinister than at first glance.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day Two - Goblin Food - Replacement Requested
Post by: webadict on August 13, 2013, 08:55:55 pm

Quote from: Nerjin on August 13, 2013, 08:36:11 pm

Well at the time the case just wasn't strong and, I'll admit, I wasn't giving this as much attention as I should have. BUT on re-read some stuff I had seen as "Meh whatever..." seemed a lot more sinister than at first glance.

That didn't really answer my question. I can rephrase if that helps.

What type of reasoning could Imperial Guardsman give or what action could another player perform that would cause you to unvote him and vote someone else? If you'd rather not answer the first part, understandable, but the second one you can definitely answer.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day Two - Goblin Food - Replacement Requested
Post by: Nerjin on August 13, 2013, 09:29:16 pm

Ah I see. I had assumed you were referring to my actual unvote as opposed to a hypothetical one. Well...

---

Quote from: webadict on August 13, 2013, 08:55:55 pm

[W]hat action could another player perform that would cause you to unvote him and vote someone else?

Probably something that would out them as scum. Such as: Bandwagoning even more obviously, a poorly reasoned argument that would require LARGE leaps of logic, or maybe outright claiming. At this point I think there's very little considering he's committed the previous three. That is my view of the matter my... ward?

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day Two - Goblin Food - Replacement Requested
Post by: Griffionday on August 14, 2013, 02:17:17 am

Birdy:

Quote from: birdy51 on August 12, 2013, 08:09:19 pm

Griffionday:

Quote from: Griffionday on August 12, 2013, 02:50:54 am

What I'm seeing though is that of your two questions to Rolepgeek that he can honestly answer, only one seems to lead anywhere into a analysis of him.  Your fist question "Any more questions for me?" (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=127764.msg4479614#msg4479614) comes after a defense of your predecessors actions (which is fair) but doesn't really counter analyze Rolepgeek.  Your one question that has some depth "Did you want the day to end early?" (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=127764.msg4480248#msg4480248) isn't followed up with any force.  You mention that his answer was confusing, which is a valid point, but you lack conviction behind your argument.

The first question was not meant to analyze Rolepgeek. If he had any other questions for me, I did not want him to be afraid to ask. As to your second point, his response made sense. I didn't really detect anything fishy about his response, so I let the issue drop.

He is here though and you've not

Quote from: birdy51 on August 12, 2013, 08:09:19 pm

However, you've made me curious. What is striking you as bad play right now?

For one the way that the game seems to be hopping from one obvious lynch target to another.  My theory is that one has quite a while to develop reads, why focus on someone you're already fairly confident is scum?

The worst instance was this though:

Quote from: Rolepgeek on August 09, 2013, 08:23:43 pm

Birdy: I didn't vote extension because I saw no point. I know who I think is scummy.

Please note they had exclusively focused on the people they considered scummy and hardly even talked to the others at that point.  When I saw that I realized I probably should step in for a bit, see if things could be improved by shouting at them.

---

Webadict:

Quote from: webadict on August 12, 2013, 07:20:47 am

Oh geez. You guys have talked a lot. Anyone want to sum up what's been said? Or how about everyone? That way, I can get a good bias check on y'all.

The game is in a rapid tail-spin.  Due to Dude acting VERY scummy and being unable to account for his actions he ended up getting lynched he was summarily lynched.  Today started with a jump at griffinpup who appeared to have been bandwagoning Dave, IG started the day acting scummy however, and so almost all attention skipped over to him.  We've had a ton of replacements, and the game has stalled.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day Two - Goblin Food - Replacement Requested
Post by: Okami No Rei on August 14, 2013, 05:59:48 am

14 Hours Remain in the Day

Day 2 ends on Wednesday, August 14 at 8:00pm CST

webadict (0) -
griffinpup (0) -
Griffionday (0) -
Rolepgeek (0) -
Imperial Guardsman (4) - griffinpup, birdy51, Rolepgeek, Nerjin
birdy51 (1) - Imperial Guardsman
Nerjin (0) -

Not Voting - Griffionday, webadict

Extend (0/3) -
Shorten (0/4) -

Griffionday has requested replacement.

griffinpup has been prodded.
Imperial Guardsman has been prodded.

Lurker Tracker (http://www.ocf.berkeley.edu/~azhou/projects/LT/zt.py?topic=127764&start=0&msg=4432342&sort=time&numreplace=4&replaced0=TheWetSheep&replacer0=GUNINANRUNIN&replaced1=GUNINANRUNIN&replacer1=SailFlame&replaced2=Boy&replacer2=Chink&replaced3=Powder%20Miner&replacer3=Rolepgeek&player0=Vector&label0=np&player1=notquitethere&label1=dead&player2=DaveTheGrave&label2=dead&player3=Tiruin&label3=np&player4=Deathsword&label4=np&player5=zombie%20urist&label5=np&player6=mastahcheese&label6=np&numlabel=7)

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day Two - Goblin Food - Replacement Requested
Post by: webadict on August 14, 2013, 08:05:10 am

Well... This sucks.

So, just in case it's not clear, mafia, please don't be rude and kill the active players. This is a learning game, and it makes learning difficult when 2 of 5 are the only ones talking. I would much rather we had 3 active players at lylo than the mafia win by technicalities (such as no one being able to vote against you).

But, I agree, Imperial Guardsman's play has been sloppy, plus he doesn't appear to be coming back. I still don't feel like I have good reads on everyone else, but the game has to go on. Bleh. Please don't be dumb town. And if he is, everyone please take that as a lesson to not do things like that. I used to do it, and it doesn't work very well unless you've planned ahead.

Imperial Guardsman.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day Two - Goblin Food - Three Replacements Requested
Post by: griffinpup on August 14, 2013, 04:18:05 pm

Quote from: Griffionday on August 08, 2013, 12:14:54 am

Quote from: griffinpup on August 07, 2013, 06:38:04 pm

So I don't have the literal right to ask someone to respond to my post after they ask for replacement?

You don't have a right to expect an answer until they're replaced. 

I disagree, but whatever.

Quote from: Griffionday on August 08, 2013, 12:14:54 am

Quote from: griffinpup on August 07, 2013, 06:38:04 pm

Quote from: Griffionday on August 07, 2013, 10:48:53 am

1. I'm not saying explain to him why you aren't lurking, I'm saying only defending yourself based on posting frequency is stupid. 

2. So you're saying one should do heavy research before voting for someone based on a case?  I agree in theory, but in practice this means that votes like Nerjin's current one are going to be more common.  I prefer having a case on the person you wish to lynch over leaving your pressure vote on someone who hasn't responded.

That obviously wasn't going to be my whole case.  That was mainly my precursor.  The fact that he refused to respond even to this kinda put a damper on my follow-up.

Care to explain what your follow up was?  If it's real it shouldn't require you to do any work...

Sure.  I would of then pushed him on the fact that the time-period was substantially less then twenty four hours and that I posted every day.  I would ask him his definition of lurking and explain why it was wrong.

Quote from: Griffionday on August 10, 2013, 01:42:18 am

Griffinpup: Why are you focusing exclusively on the past in this game when you could be generating your own material to read?  Interact with everyone, and once you've a feeling for them, move on and talk to someone else.  Seriously.  Your emphasis on reads, events, and past oriented hunting is equally detrimental to the game as IG. 

Wow.  You're brilliant.  We should totally do RVS again and ask each other inane questions to generate new content.  Of course, pushing people on stuff that they did in the past to generate content is a terrible idea, so we shouldn't do that.

Quote from: Griffionday on August 10, 2013, 01:42:18 am

Your emphasis on reads, events, and past oriented hunting is equally detrimental to the game as IG. 

Lying piece of crap.  I asked someone to elaborate on reads I couldn't understand ONCE.  It's not an "emphasis" of mine.  I have no idea why this seems like such a big deal to you.  Also, please find me somewhere where I put an emphasis on an event and why it's been so absolutely detrimental.  I'm fairly certain it doesn't exist.  I also have no idea why you are so against pushing people on anything that happened in the past.

Quote from: Griffionday on August 10, 2013, 01:42:18 am

I'm glad you're focusing exclusively on easy lynches (it makes you kinda obviously scum though), but don't you think you should question the more difficult ones as well?  I can guarantee there's far more satisfaction to be found there.

Lay off Griffionday.  Either grow some balls and vote me with a case, or stop insinuating that I'm scum and insulting my play style.

Quote from: webadict on August 12, 2013, 07:20:47 am

Oh geez. You guys have talked a lot. Anyone want to sum up what's been said? Or how about everyone? That way, I can get a good bias check on y'all.

Easy.
1.  Dave played like the newbiest and scummiest scum ever, and was summarily lynched because of it.
2.  Three people decided to vote me at the beginning of day two.  One of their cases were driven by emotion and was therefor fallacious and made up.  Griffionday had another case, (which didn't actually suck) but he requested a replacement shortly after.  IG voted me without a case.
3.  everyone requested replacement.

Webadict:
Who did you replace?  And who did that person replace?

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day Two - Goblin Food - Three Replacements Requested
Post by: Nerjin on August 14, 2013, 04:41:08 pm

Quote from: griffinpup on August 14, 2013, 04:18:05 pm

Webadict:
Who did you replace?  And who did that person replace?

Check the OP for this information. The mods always keep this stuff up to date.

Quote from: Okami No Rei on June 27, 2013, 12:20:18 am

Player List [7/7]:
TheWetSheep GUNINANRUNIN TheWetSheep SailFlame webadict
griffinpup
Griffionday
Powder Miner Rolepgeek
Imperial Guardsman
DaveTheGrave - Lynched Day One - Goblin Thief (Vanilla Town)
Boy Chink birdy51

ICs [2/2]:
Nerjin
notquitethere - Killed Night One - Goblin Sergeant (Cop)

Scum IC:
Deathsword

Replacement List:
No one around...

Just to show who's where and what.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day Two - Goblin Food - Replacement Requested
Post by: griffinpup on August 14, 2013, 04:55:10 pm

Thanks Nerjin.

so Webadict:
Just to make sure, are there any outstanding points on Gun's case on me that you want answering?

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day Two - Goblin Food - Replacement Requested
Post by: webadict on August 14, 2013, 05:52:57 pm

Quote from: griffinpup on August 14, 2013, 04:55:10 pm

Thanks Nerjin.

so Webadict:
Just to make sure, are there any outstanding points on Gun's case on me that you want answering?

I don't know what this case was, and even if I did... Meh. It's not my case. You'd be answering someone else's questions. I mean, if you WANT to address it, I won't stop you.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day Two - Goblin Food - Replacement Requested
Post by: griffinpup on August 14, 2013, 06:26:02 pm

Quote from: webadict on August 14, 2013, 05:52:57 pm

Quote from: griffinpup on August 14, 2013, 04:55:10 pm

Thanks Nerjin.

so Webadict:
Just to make sure, are there any outstanding points on Gun's case on me that you want answering?

I don't know what this case was, and even if I did... Meh. It's not my case. You'd be answering someone else's questions. I mean, if you WANT to address it, I won't stop you.

X_X
so you really haven't read this thread.  Ah well.  I was just checking that you weren't expecting additional refutation.  You obviously aren't, so consider the matter closed.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day Two - Goblin Food - Replacement Requested
Post by: Okami No Rei on August 14, 2013, 06:49:37 pm

One hour remaining in the day.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day Two - Goblin Food - Replacement Requested
Post by: webadict on August 14, 2013, 07:12:59 pm

Quote from: griffinpup on August 14, 2013, 06:26:02 pm

Quote from: webadict on August 14, 2013, 05:52:57 pm

Quote from: griffinpup on August 14, 2013, 04:55:10 pm

Thanks Nerjin.

so Webadict:
Just to make sure, are there any outstanding points on Gun's case on me that you want answering?

I don't know what this case was, and even if I did... Meh. It's not my case. You'd be answering someone else's questions. I mean, if you WANT to address it, I won't stop you.

X_X
so you really haven't read this thread.  Ah well.  I was just checking that you weren't expecting additional refutation.  You obviously aren't, so consider the matter closed.

Yeeeeah, no, as much as I'd WANT to have read the thread, it's just not going to happen. I just can't do it.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day Two - Goblin Food - Replacement Requested
Post by: Okami No Rei on August 14, 2013, 08:05:52 pm

Spoiler: Dwarven Meat (click to show/hide)

"Where were you last night.  I no see you when I wake to take leak."
The speaker was a goblin only barely old enough to carry a spear.  He turned to berate the scrawny git for speaking out of turn, then realized it had a point.  He turned again, raising an accusatory finger to the mountain goblin it'd addressed.
"YES! I no tell you to scout last night.  You should have stayed with us in safe room!  Where you go?"
The mountain goblin backed up a few steps, raising its hands.
"I, er, I also found it necessary to relieve myself.  I simply took a walk to the refuse stockpile down the hall."
"You what?  And risk the whole group found?"
He grabbed the mountain goblin by its shirt, and pulled it face to face.
"I tire of your rock gob ways.  Next time, you shit in hole in the floor like rest of gobs."
"But the stench is unbearable!  Why do you think I covered it up? In any case, I don't see any rea..."
That smell.  On its breath.  It couldn't be.
"IT WAS YOU!  You are the snitch!"
He threw the mountain goblin to the ground.
"You trade gob plans for dwarf beer.  You kill gobs for dwarf rum.  You trade your pride as gob for dwarf wine."
He stepped on it, pushing it to the ground as it attempted to stand.  He then drew his sword, pointing the tip at each goblin in turn.
"This gob is snitch.  This gob must die.  All of you with me?"
A chorus of cheers, grunts and growls erupted from the remaining goblins.
"He's got it all wrong!  I would never...  I can't... You mustn't..."
He cut it's protests short, driving his sword through its back.
"This is price you pay, snitch.  This is price all of you pay, if you snitch."
He turned over the body, when something caught his eye.  A bit of hair peeking out from underneath its false beard.  A quick tug, and the beard fell away, revealing a second underneath.  Several sharp tugs failed to remove the second.
"It... It's a dwarf.  The snitch is a dwarf.  He just dress up in gob clothes."
A smile lit up his face.
"We eat good this night, boys!"

Day 2 has ended.

Imperial Guardsman has been lynched!

Imperial Guardsman was a Dwarven Manager (Mafia Rolecop)

FINAL VOTECOUNT

webadict (0) -
griffinpup (0) -
Griffionday (0) -
Rolepgeek (0) -
Imperial Guardsman (5) - griffinpup, birdy51, Rolepgeek, Nerjin, webadict
birdy51 (1) - Imperial Guardsman
Nerjin (0) -

Not Voting - Griffionday

Griffionday has requested replacement.

Lurker Tracker (http://www.ocf.berkeley.edu/~azhou/projects/LT/zt.py?topic=127764&start=0&msg=4432342&sort=time&numreplace=4&replaced0=TheWetSheep&replacer0=GUNINANRUNIN&replaced1=GUNINANRUNIN&replacer1=SailFlame&replaced2=Boy&replacer2=Chink&replaced3=Powder%20Miner&replacer3=Rolepgeek&player0=Vector&label0=np&player1=notquitethere&label1=dead&player2=DaveTheGrave&label2=dead&player3=Tiruin&label3=np&player4=Deathsword&label4=np&player5=zombie%20urist&label5=np&player6=mastahcheese&label6=np&numlabel=7)

Night Two has begun, and will end on Thursday, August 15 at 8:00pm, or when I have received all actions.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day Two - Goblin Food - Replacement Requested
Post by: Okami No Rei on August 15, 2013, 06:27:49 pm

Spoiler: Missing Friend (click to show/hide)

He didn't sleep that night.  He couldn't.  Not with the images still fresh in his head.

His friend had been torn to pieces.  The goblins devoured him with ferocious abandon.  The memory brought him to the point of vomiting again, but there was nothing left to bring up.

They slept soundly, each content, for the time, with a full belly.  Every one confident that another had taken watch.  He'd taken the opportunity to slit the new leader's throat, but then lost his nerve for fear of the others waking.  He went back to the corner, curled up, and focused on not crying.  That would surely bring their attention.

A drink.  He needed a drink.  It'd been days since anything save water had passed his lips.  He dared not.  His friend had been a fool to go.  He wouldn't make the same mistake.

His gut told him the sun was rising outside.  The goblins began to stir.  Didn't take long for one to notice Chief for a Day didn't wake up.  A fight nearly broke out, then another called for a vote.  Voting.  What kind of fool plan had that been?  Now see where it had gotten him.

He got up and joined the group.  Maybe he could turn things his way again.  He'd be happy if he could just survive.

Night 2 has ended.

webadict has been killed!

webadict was a Goblin Thief (Vanilla Town)

Squill has replaced Griffionday.

griffinpup (0) -
Squill (0) -
Rolepgeek (0) -
birdy51 (0) -
Nerjin (0) -

Not Voting - griffinpup, Squill, Rolepgeek, birdy51, Nerjin

Extend (0/2) -
Shorten (0/3) -

Lurker Tracker (http://www.ocf.berkeley.edu/~azhou/projects/LT/zt.py?topic=127764&start=0&msg=4432342&numreplace=6&replaced0=TheWetSheep&replacer0=GUNINANRUNIN&replaced1=GUNINANRUNIN&replacer1=webadict&replaced2=Griffionday&replacer2=Squill&replaced3=Boy&replacer3=Chink&replaced4=Chink&replacer4=birdy51&replaced5=Powder%20Miner&replacer5=Rolepgeek&numlabel=10&player0=DaveTheGrave&label0=dead&player1=notquitethere&label1=dead&player2=Imperial%20Guardsman&label2=dead&player3=webadict&label3=dead&player4=Vector&label4=np&player5=Tiruin&label5=np&player6=Scelly9&label6=np&player7=Deathsword&label7=np&player8=zombie%20urist&label8=np&player9=mastahcheese&label9=np) - Updated!

Day Three has begun, and will end on Tuesday, August 20 at 8:00pm.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day Three - Missing Friend - Replacement Requested
Post by: webadict on August 15, 2013, 07:36:28 pm

Real douchebag move, scum. Real douchebag move...

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day Three - Missing Friend
Post by: Imperial Guardsman on August 15, 2013, 08:37:29 pm

Today just wasnt my day.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day Three - Missing Friend
Post by: birdy51 on August 15, 2013, 09:12:30 pm

Let's get this day started. We finally have enough players to actually get around to playing the game, so let's take advantage of it. It's late, so I'm going to make this quick...

Griffinpup: I've noticed your play style has shifted into a much more aggressive style than what I have seen in the past. What caused this sort of change?


Squill: Welcome to the game. Are you scum?


Rolepgeek: There are some questions from Day 2 that you've overlooked, including one from me and one from Griffionday. Do you plan on addressing them anytime soon?


Nerjin: Yesterday, you came into the vote very late and was not given any chances to give in your insight on the situation as a whole. How do you plan on addressing Day 3?

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day Three - Missing Friend
Post by: Squill on August 15, 2013, 10:07:29 pm

Quote from: birdy51 on August 15, 2013, 09:12:30 pm

Squill: Welcome to the game. Are you scum?

No, but if I was, I see no reason to say so.
Also, I feel confused. I have a vague idea of the ongoings, but the specifics are beyond me. I don't think the personal feud helped, but it seems to be a little bit clearer.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day Three - Missing Friend
Post by: Rolepgeek on August 15, 2013, 10:39:54 pm

All: So what's everyone's reads on the subject? For my own, it goes a little something like this.

birdy51: Still think he could be scum, but the fact that he was the first to make a case against IG, and IG was scum, makes this less likely.

Squill: I don't think he's scum, mainly because Griffionday was gone and so probably couldn't put in the Mafiakill like that.

Nerjin: Could very well be scum. He's an IC, so that makes me doubtful, though. He was the fourth to vote for IG, meaning he may have been voting as a bandwagon to make himself seem town.

Griffinpup: The person I think is most likely to be scum, as he may have been building the arguement between him and IG to make it seem like they were at odds and thus neither was scum. Also, for whatever reason, he got really pissy with Griffionday, in addition to insulting his playstyle whilst simultaneously telling Griffionday to stop doing the same to him. And yet he's been the one to continuously comment about people being 'emotionally-driven'.

FAKEEDITSERIOUSLYIT'SFAKE: I hadn't noticed those questions, actually, birdy. I'll answer them now.

For Griffionday's question, I would think it would be easy if you pretended you were town. That sounds ridiculous, but basically, if you act the exact same way you would as if you were town, then you're indistinguishable, right? This is my first game, so the only thing I can see that would make it easier or harder is other people screwing up the DavetheGrave did, or cops getting lucky.

For yours, I'm thinking Powder Miner kept his vote on him for the same reason everyone else voted him in the first place; he was acting really scummy. Or at least we thought he did. Considering that IG was the one who voted him, and griffinpup and him started pumping him and sending him into a panic, which at least for me, casts some suspicion on griffinpup. But yeah, I think he kept the vote on because he thought it was the best idea to do. Probably. I'm not him. I could PM him, if you like.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day Three - Missing Friend
Post by: Okami No Rei on August 15, 2013, 10:51:26 pm

Quote from: Rolepgeek on August 15, 2013, 10:39:54 pm

I could PM him, if you like.

Please don't.  It's best to assume he's gone entirely.  Otherwise complications arise over whether or not you're reporting his words truthfully.  It also removes responsibility from you for his answers, which should be your answers.

If you want a technical reason why you shouldn't, discussion of an ongoing game outside the thread or mod-sanctioned chat rooms is a modkillable/bannable offense.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day Three - Missing Friend
Post by: Rolepgeek on August 15, 2013, 10:56:58 pm

Okay. Didn't realize, my apologies.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day Three - Missing Friend
Post by: Squill on August 15, 2013, 11:05:43 pm

So, I'm very new to this, so I'm probably wrong, but if I had to guess I'd go for Nerjin first, as he's been very quiet, or so it seems to me, or griffinpup, because as rolepgeek has pointed out, griffin's been very argumentative.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day Three - Missing Friend
Post by: Nerjin on August 16, 2013, 02:40:49 pm

Quote from: birdy51 on August 15, 2013, 09:12:30 pm

Squill: Welcome to the game. Are you scum?

[...]

Nerjin: Yesterday, you came into the vote very late and was not given any chances to give in your insight on the situation as a whole. How do you plan on addressing Day 3?

Your first question is kinda... Wasted. But I suppose it's a fair enough one. As for the question addressed to me: I'm going to reread days 1 and 2 and then get back to you on that one. After every day you should re-read the previous ones. Even if it's just a quick re-read to refresh your memory.

---

Quote from: Rolepgeek on August 15, 2013, 10:39:54 pm

Squill: I don't think he's scum, mainly because Griffionday was gone and so probably couldn't put in the Mafiakill like that.

Squill could have replaced in during the time gap. Plus it doesn't take much to initiate a mafiakill so it could have been GriffDay. "Kill Webadict" is pretty quick to type. So don't give Squill a free pass on that.

Quote from: Rolepgeek on August 15, 2013, 10:39:54 pm

Nerjin: Could very well be scum. He's an IC, so that makes me doubtful, though. He was the fourth to vote for IG, meaning he may have been voting as a bandwagon to make himself seem town.

NEVER assume an IC isn't scum. There've been games where both IC's are scum. But it wasn't a bandwagon. I provided evidence and didn't just say "Oh yep, IG is scum so screw that square."

Quote from: Rolepgeek on August 15, 2013, 10:39:54 pm

For Griffionday's question, I would think it would be easy if you pretended you were town. That sounds ridiculous, but basically, if you act the exact same way you would as if you were town, then you're indistinguishable, right? This is my first game, so the only thing I can see that would make it easier or harder is other people screwing up the DavetheGrave did, or cops getting lucky.

For yours, I'm thinking Powder Miner kept his vote on him for the same reason everyone else voted him in the first place; he was acting really scummy. Or at least we thought he did. Considering that IG was the one who voted him, and griffinpup and him started pumping him and sending him into a panic, which at least for me, casts some suspicion on griffinpup. But yeah, I think he kept the vote on because he thought it was the best idea to do. Probably. I'm not him. I could PM him, if you like.

If you aren't answering a question directly above your post you should always quote it so that people know what you're talking about.

---

Quote from: Squill on August 15, 2013, 11:05:43 pm

So, I'm very new to this, so I'm probably wrong, but if I had to guess I'd go for Nerjin first, as he's been very quiet, or so it seems to me, or griffinpup, because as rolepgeek has pointed out, griffin's been very argumentative.

I recommend rereading the Original Post. There's a handy scum-hunting guide there. One of the rules is to NEVER show doubt. Otherwise I could easily say something such as "Oh so you're not sure? Why are you voting if you're not sure? Maybe it just doesn't matter to you who dies scumbag!" but much more elegantly phrased. Yeah, but the reason I was so quiet is because I was busy with RL stuff.

---

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day Three - Missing Friend
Post by: griffinpup on August 16, 2013, 04:43:45 pm

Quote from: Rolepgeek on August 15, 2013, 10:39:54 pm

Griffinpup: 1. The person I think is most likely to be scum, as he may have been building the arguement between him and IG to make it seem like they were at odds and thus neither was scum. 2. Also, for whatever reason, he got really pissy with Griffionday, 3. in addition to insulting his playstyle whilst simultaneously telling Griffionday to stop doing the same to him. 4. And yet he's been the one to continuously comment about people being 'emotionally-driven'.

1.  WIFOM like none other.
2.  Not a scumtell.
3.  I never insulted Griffionday's playstyle, only Griffionday as a person.
4.  "Emotionally Driven" and "Feels Emotion" are two separate and distinct things.
People seem to be confused with emotion and how it relates to scummitude, so I'll attempt to explain it completely.

Thinking someone is scum because you don't like them is STUPID.  It doesn't follow logically.  Just because you hate someone doesn't make them more likely to be scum.  However, this doesn't mean that you can't become emotionally involved in this game, just don't let it mess with your opinions of who the scum are.  I was pissed with how Griffionday kept on implying my certain scummitude, but never acted on it or brought an actual case to bear, so I told him to stuff it.  That doesn't automatically mean I think he's scum.

One thing that I'm currently confused at.  If you think that I'm probably scum, why aren't you voting me?  It is a scumtell to avoid calling someone scum or being reluctant to vote someone you "think" is scum, both of which you're doing.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day Three - Missing Friend
Post by: Rolepgeek on August 16, 2013, 04:50:58 pm

I haven't voted anyone because I don't fully believe any one person is scum yet. I'll vote when I'm sure of it, or as sure as I can be.

What's WIFOM mean? I only bring it up because the idea (of falsifying an argument between scum to make it seem like only one or the other or neither was) was brought up in the game.

Also, Another part of the reason I didn't vote is because I still need to reread the thread and make sure I'm not mixing up Griffionday and griffinpup, because they keep getting mixed up in my head.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day Two - Goblin Food - Replacement Requested
Post by: Okami No Rei on August 16, 2013, 06:01:59 pm

Day Three will end on Tuesday, August 20 at 8:00pm.

griffinpup (0) -
Squill (1) - birdy51
Rolepgeek (0) -
birdy51 (0) -
Nerjin (1) - Squill

Not Voting - griffinpup, Rolepgeek, Nerjin

Extend (0/2) -
Shorten (0/3) -

Lurker Tracker (http://www.ocf.berkeley.edu/~azhou/projects/LT/zt.py?topic=127764&start=0&msg=4432342&numreplace=6&replaced0=TheWetSheep&replacer0=GUNINANRUNIN&replaced1=GUNINANRUNIN&replacer1=webadict&replaced2=Griffionday&replacer2=Squill&replaced3=Boy&replacer3=Chink&replaced4=Chink&replacer4=birdy51&replaced5=Powder%20Miner&replacer5=Rolepgeek&numlabel=10&player0=DaveTheGrave&label0=dead&player1=notquitethere&label1=dead&player2=Imperial%20Guardsman&label2=dead&player3=webadict&label3=dead&player4=Vector&label4=np&player5=Tiruin&label5=np&player6=Scelly9&label6=np&player7=Deathsword&label7=np&player8=zombie%20urist&label8=np&player9=mastahcheese&label9=np)

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day Three - Missing Friend
Post by: griffinpup on August 16, 2013, 06:46:00 pm

Gah.
Sorry for double(ish) post

Quote from: birdy51 on August 15, 2013, 09:12:30 pm

Griffinpup: I've noticed your play style has shifted into a much more aggressive style than what I have seen in the past. What caused this sort of change?

Two-fold.
1. Rage mode turned on.
2. And I get more aggressive later in the game as I tend to scumhunt more late-game then I have substance to work with.

Rolepgeek:
WIFOM = Wine In Front Of Me.  If you're familier with the princess bride, you can remember when the dude was trying to pick which cup of wine to drink using circular reasoning...

Quote from: Tiruin on May 16, 2013, 12:20:47 am

WIFOM - Wine In Front Of Me, the circular reasoning that results from trying to determine the choices of an opponent who acted with full knowledge that his behavior would be subject to scrutiny.

Quote from: Princess Bride

"All right: where is the poison? The battle of wits has begun. It ends when you decide and we both drink, and find out who is right and who is dead."

"But it's so simple. All I have to do is divine from what I know of you. Are you the sort of man who would put the poison into his own goblet, or his enemy's?"

Or just read more about it here. http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=WIFOM
This was basically what you were doing.
While WIFOM is not entirely invalid in SOME cases, it isn't enough to build a case out of.
I assume that every point that you failed to mention is agreed with by you.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day Three - Missing Friend
Post by: Rolepgeek on August 16, 2013, 06:56:24 pm

Griffinpup:More or less, yeah. Though I hadn't been mentioning you being pissed with Griffion as a scumtell, I was just curious.

But as for WIFOM, again, earlier in the thread someone brought up manufacturing a disagreement between the two scum to make each other look non-scum. If it had not been brought up, I would consider it, but it was, and this all occurred afterwards, so my suspicion is that scum got inspired.

Another reason I have for suspecting you is that now that I've confirmed it was you and not Griffionday, you were helping IG in the beginning, to put pressure on DavetheGrave. IG obviously knew he wasn't scum, so it makes one wonder if you were working together to get him lynched.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day Three - Missing Friend
Post by: griffinpup on August 17, 2013, 11:02:38 am

Quote from: Rolepgeek on August 16, 2013, 06:56:24 pm

But as for WIFOM, again, earlier in the thread someone brought up manufacturing a disagreement between the two scum to make each other look non-scum. If it had not been brought up, I would consider it, but it was, and this all occurred afterwards, so my suspicion is that scum got inspired.

Another reason I have for suspecting you is that now that I've confirmed it was you and not Griffionday, you were helping IG in the beginning, to put pressure on DavetheGrave. IG obviously knew he wasn't scum, so it makes one wonder if you were working together to get him lynched.

Rolepgeek:
Do you disagree with my case on Dave?
And please elaborate on you first paragraph.  I'm not quite sure what you're trying to say.

Birdy12:
Your predecessor lurked incessantly.
He sat his vote on Powder Miner day one, and never really commented on the lynching of Dave.
Chink never actually interacted with IG in anything but RVS.  This is a classic newb scumtell.  Scum attempt to simultaneously avoid bringing attention to their partner and avoid any associative tells with said partner.  This commonly involves no interaction whatsoever between them.
And since you've replaced in, you've voted IG. 

Quote from: birdy51 on August 09, 2013, 04:07:07 pm

Imperial Guardsman: Support your arguments. Preferably in something longer than single sentence groups. Beyond the flimsy reasoning on the basis of a mislynch, you didn't seem to have a single good reason for holding your vote on Griffonpup besides the fact that two other players had already voted for him. Do explain yourself.

But the interesting thing about this vote was how it was conditioned.
You never called IG scum.  In fact, you're not even voting him to be lynched.  No, you're voting him until he can explain his arguments.  This seems more and more like an attempt to go with what is popular opinion, but have a viable excuse to remove your vote if the opportunity presents itself and if your scumbuddy can be saved.  You continue this pattern with the rest of your posts.
more later

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day Three - Missing Friend
Post by: birdy51 on August 17, 2013, 02:26:41 pm

Quote from: griffinpup on August 17, 2013, 11:02:38 am

Birdy12:
Your predecessor lurked incessantly.
He sat his vote on Powder Miner day one, and never really commented on the lynching of Dave.
Chink never actually interacted with IG in anything but RVS.  This is a classic newb scumtell.  Scum attempt to simultaneously avoid bringing attention to their partner and avoid any associative tells with said partner.  This commonly involves no interaction whatsoever between them.

This argument again... Yes Chink lurked. This is a fact that has been pounded down already. That is where your argument stops making sense.

You say he never had any strong interactions with IG. While true, Chink also never had any interactions outside of RVS with NQT. Further you have tastefully neglected to mention that he also had nearly no interactions with two other players, TheWetSheep/ Guninanarunin, and Griffionday. Chink avoiding addressing just Imperial Guardsman. He just never took the opportunity to address anyone.

Quote from: griffinpup on August 17, 2013, 11:02:38 am

And since you've replaced in, you've voted IG. 

Quote from: birdy51 on August 09, 2013, 04:07:07 pm

Imperial Guardsman: Support your arguments. Preferably in something longer than single sentence groups. Beyond the flimsy reasoning on the basis of a mislynch, you didn't seem to have a single good reason for holding your vote on Griffonpup besides the fact that two other players had already voted for him. Do explain yourself.

But the interesting thing about this vote was how it was conditioned.
You never called IG scum.  In fact, you're not even voting him to be lynched.  No, you're voting him until he can explain his arguments.  This seems more and more like an attempt to go with what is popular opinion, but have a viable excuse to remove your vote if the opportunity presents itself and if your scumbuddy can be saved.  You continue this pattern with the rest of your posts.
more later

Finally something new.

Yes, I voted for IG. But I was not confident that he was scum, due to the sheer lack of content that he put out. So I pressured him so he could provide answers. When nothing came out of my vote, I was compelled to keep the vote there and lynch him for lurking. We've been through this. It's a pattern for a reason. I case you haven't noticed, this is a BM. My own goal is to see both myself and other players improve.

I'm not out to lynch everything in sight. If Imperial Guardsman had given a proper defense for himself, I would have unvoted him, even if not a single other player agreed with me.

I'd say more, but this weekend is a bit busy for me.

Rolepgeek, Squill, Nerjin. I have not forgotten any of you, so bear with me for a bit as I will try to be on later to tonight to address you guys. Also, unvote

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day Three - Missing Friend
Post by: birdy51 on August 17, 2013, 07:19:50 pm

I fear that I may have lied to you all.

Things have come up, and I will be postponing my responses until tomorrow.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day Three - Missing Friend
Post by: Squill on August 17, 2013, 09:01:17 pm

I may have to quit. I feel like I'm not grasping this at all.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day Three - Missing Friend
Post by: Rolepgeek on August 17, 2013, 10:47:46 pm

Griffinpup: I went back through the thread and read over your case, and how IG interacted with him. And to be honest, I do disagree with your case.

Quote from: griffinpup on July 25, 2013, 10:50:24 pm

Dave:
You have stated that you found IG scummy, so you left your vote on him.  You also said that you left your vote on him as incentive to remove his.  Which is it?

Quote from: DaveTheGrave on July 25, 2013, 08:43:37 pm

I lost suspicion for one, and gained one for another.
- snip
I did, and still have suspicion.

In your latest post you offer a contradiction.  These are both about IG, and you say that you have lost any and all suspicion for him in your first statement.  You then say that you still have suspicion.  Which is it, and why the contradiction?
Why am I suddenly so suspicious? Is it because I voted you?

Here for example, you are putting words in his mouth. 'I lost suspicion' and 'lost any and all suspicion' are not the same. Having suspicion, and losing suspicison, are also not contradictory. I lost suspicion for birdy51, but still have suspicion. It's simply overshadowed, much like how my suspicion of IG had been overshadowed by my suspicion for him. Similarly, it's easy to have multiple reasons to vote someone. Poor reasons, but reasons nonetheless.

From what I can tell, he didn't look scummy(or to clarify, once all was said and done, looking at the entire day 1, he didn't look scummy), he looked like town who had no idea what he was doing or, in all honesty, how the game was played. He also misinterpreted a huge number of questions, leading to more confusion. With IG continuing to pressure him and not let him stop playing an emotional game, and your more reasonable assistance(in comparison to the way IG was acting, you were putting more reasoned cases together, and in a more logical fashion, even if I disagree with them.)

To be honest, I even disagree with Powder Miner's case, now that I look at it. When he made it, it was a decent case, but before the day ended, I think it would've been made obvious that he was just really bad at the game. Tying the vote up on purpose though, which means he should probably be lynched anyway as that's just dangerous behavior for town, but still.

Going back to your case, a short time later, you say he hasn't answered your questions, and tell him to once again. Yet, his reasoning in his response to Nerjin, did answer the question(s). And it was a measly two posts above your own. Granted, the first, about 'which one was it', he did not answer. But you then asked him for answers to the others, not just that one. Which makes me wonder if you were purposefully ignoring it in hopes that other would skip over it and find him more suspicious.

But, in combing through the thread for this information, I find something else.

Quote from: Chink on July 26, 2013, 07:08:42 pm

IG: You are a Rolecop, D1. Who do you target N1, and why?

New evidence has come to light. Specifically, evidence that IG was a Rolecop. He'd asked, and been asked, questions about Rolecop before, as well. This is unlikely, to say the least, to be a coincidence. Combined with other factors(such as the relative low post count of Chink, the points you've brought up about him subsequently interacting very little with IG, and , this raises the suspicion factor on birdy51.

And then, it swings back around to you, griffinpup, with this post.

Quote from: griffinpup on July 26, 2013, 10:41:09 pm

Quote from: Griffionday on July 26, 2013, 10:26:22 pm

Quote from: griffinpup on July 26, 2013, 09:48:57 pm

Quote from: Chink on July 26, 2013, 07:08:42 pm

griffinpup: Why, do you think, are you second in the running for being lynched? What scumtells do you think you've been giving?

Because people have been voting me for fallacious reasoning. 
I haven't been giving off any scumtells.  Dave merely panicked, OMGUS'ing and bandwagon voting me to avoid being lynched.  In fact, he still hasn't given a reason for voting me other then a  vague accusation of scumminess.
TheWetSheep, on the other hand, has voted me on mistaken assumptions, and I believe that that misunderstanding will be sorted out promptly.

So... you been deliberately giving off no scumtells?  What about the one where you carefully give off no scum tells?

---

I wouldn't say deliberately, but I haven't given off any scum tells.  The scum tell of giving off no scum tells is a little silly, but isn't applicable either because that implies both intentionally avoiding scum tells, (which I haven't) and mainly deals with cases in which the player in question has been acting scummy, but has avoided every generic 'scum tell'.  I, on the other hand, emulate town play. :D

You say you haven't given off any scum tells. But...that would mean you were carefully watching yourself for scum tells. Otherwise, how would you know? You should be trying to find scum, not caring about whether or not you're giving tells. That is. If you're town. The fact that you brought it up makes me think your mind was on it. Which makes me think you were purposefully trying not to give off scumtells. Which is what scum do.

And then, a bit later, you notice the answer Dave gave, when TheWetSheep brings it up. But you somehow think it was directed to IG. While I would have been confused as to who it was directed to, at all, I wouldn't assume it was IG. Particularly since he wasn't the latest recipient of DavetheGrave's vote. Whether that's something scum would do...I don't know. But the other townies might, so I bring it up.

But now I realize. Your playstyle hasn't changed with Griffionday. The less pleasant side of you simply came out, as can be seen by your reaction to Gunin and your ways of dealing with Dave.

And I would continue this post but it's already taken the better part of an hour to type and my brain is exhausted.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day Three - Missing Friend
Post by: notquitethere on August 18, 2013, 09:21:16 am

Squill

Quote from: Squill on August 17, 2013, 09:01:17 pm

I may have to quit. I feel like I'm not grasping this at all.

Mafia can take a little getting your head around but it's very rewarding if you stick with it. One tactic to use when you feel confused by the game is to look at things people have written that seem odd and ask them what they meant. Feel free to ask me or Nerjin, the ICs, any mafia-related questions.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day Three - Missing Friend
Post by: Squill on August 18, 2013, 11:25:17 am

Quote from: notquitethere on August 18, 2013, 09:21:16 am

Squill

Quote from: Squill on August 17, 2013, 09:01:17 pm

I may have to quit. I feel like I'm not grasping this at all.

Mafia can take a little getting your head around but it's very rewarding if you stick with it. One tactic to use when you feel confused by the game is to look at things people have written that seem odd and ask them what they meant. Feel free to ask me or Nerjin, the ICs, any mafia-related questions.

I think I'll devote some time today to rereading the beginner's guide, maybe look at the wiki, and reread everything that's happened in this game. If I still feel so clueless, I'll probably drop out.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day Three - Missing Friend
Post by: Squill on August 18, 2013, 11:27:33 am

Not-edit: It might help if at some point I'm asked more difficult questions, as that would force me to go back, and give me something specific to look for.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day Three - Missing Friend
Post by: webadict on August 18, 2013, 11:58:58 am

Quote from: Squill on August 18, 2013, 11:27:33 am

Not-edit: It might help if at some point I'm asked more difficult questions, as that would force me to go back, and give me something specific to look for.

I'm dead and all, but I can certainly help you out.

Look at the cases that have been brought forth. Since you haven't been in for a while, these are good indicators of what's happening. You should ask questions about them, anything that doesn't look right, or you feel is wrong. You haven't been in this game long, so I don't really think you should look back. It's helpful if you have time, but... You probably don't. But, you have a plethora of information to look at, so don't feel like there's nothing you can do. Mostly, though, ask questions. W questions work well here, if you can't think of anything specific. Who are you voting for? Why? What did they say? Where/when did they say that? How does that make them scummy?

Basically, try to integrate yourself in slowly.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day Two - Goblin Food - Two Replacements Required
Post by: Nerjin on August 18, 2013, 04:11:02 pm

Bah I'm having a real hard time focusing on this for some reason.

Quote from: Squill on August 15, 2013, 11:05:43 pm

So, I'm very new to this, so I'm probably wrong, but if I had to guess I'd go for Nerjin first, as he's been very quiet, or so it seems to me, or griffinpup, because as rolepgeek has pointed out, griffin's been very argumentative.

Squill I don't have a lot to base off of but this seems a little "Too Easy" to go for. Please state YOUR case on one of those two people. Point out some scummy things they have done as well please. Simply saying that I have lurked [which is only partially true. I've also posted a lot and have put several reads on the table.] and that GriffPup is being argumentative [which seems like a meta argument.] isn't enough.

It's not too uncommon for some players, myself included, to feel lost at times. Just reread from the start in sections [a day at a time, or a page or something like that.] and try to keep notes. A real easy thing, I find, is to just rewrite what they said in your own words. If you can't do that ask them to specify [as long as it isn't too far away]. That'll make it all very easy as you'll be able to breeze through rereads. Instead of paragraphs you'll be looking at sentences. Works for me most of the time anyway.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day Three - Missing Friend
Post by: birdy51 on August 18, 2013, 05:37:44 pm

Rolepgeek: Lean Town. I don't have that much to say against Rolepgeek, aside that it took him a surprisingly long time to get around to my questions.

Quote from: Rolepgeek on August 15, 2013, 10:39:54 pm

FAKEEDITSERIOUSLYIT'SFAKE: I hadn't noticed those questions, actually, birdy. I'll answer them now.

For Griffionday's question, I would think it would be easy if you pretended you were town. That sounds ridiculous, but basically, if you act the exact same way you would as if you were town, then you're indistinguishable, right? This is my first game, so the only thing I can see that would make it easier or harder is other people screwing up the DavetheGrave did, or cops getting lucky.

For yours, I'm thinking Powder Miner kept his vote on him for the same reason everyone else voted him in the first place; he was acting really scummy. Or at least we thought he did. Considering that IG was the one who voted him, and griffinpup and him started pumping him and sending him into a panic, which at least for me, casts some suspicion on griffinpup. But yeah, I think he kept the vote on because he thought it was the best idea to do. Probably. I'm not him. I could PM him, if you like.

You would actually be surprised how difficult it can be to play the scum role. If you are a Townie, you don't have to be afraid of death. Scum players however have to protect themselves from their own lynch, since there is only a small handful of players on their side. This makes them afraid of death and accusations, which causes their gameplay to change as a consequence.

I can live with your explanation of Powder Miner's actions. It strikes me as genuine.

Also, as per your request, I am addressing everyone in this post, so I'm going to include my reads of them as a I go through my responses.

Quote from: Rolepgeek on August 17, 2013, 10:47:46 pm

But, in combing through the thread for this information, I find something else.

Quote from: Chink on July 26, 2013, 07:08:42 pm

IG: You are a Rolecop, D1. Who do you target N1, and why?

New evidence has come to light. Specifically, evidence that IG was a Rolecop. He'd asked, and been asked, questions about Rolecop before, as well. This is unlikely, to say the least, to be a coincidence. Combined with other factors(such as the relative low post count of Chink, the points you've brought up about him subsequently interacting very little with IG, and , this raises the suspicion factor on birdy51.

Also… Good catch on the RVS question between Chink and IG, but I am not certain what to make of it. But, if I had to wager a logical guess, I think this probably one case where the scum decides to taunt a townie.

---

Squill: Leaning Towards Town. I have no real reason to suspect Squill, based on the actions of his Griffionday and his response to my question. Newscum might have panicked a bit more, and would have potentially written a larger argument as to why they cannot possibly be scum. The outrightness of his answer gives some indication of his alignment.

Quote from: Squill on August 15, 2013, 10:07:29 pm

Quote from: birdy51 on August 15, 2013, 09:12:30 pm

Squill: Welcome to the game. Are you scum?

No, but if I was, I see no reason to say so.
Also, I feel confused. I have a vague idea of the ongoings, but the specifics are beyond me. I don't think the personal feud helped, but it seems to be a little bit clearer.

The reason I asked you if you were scum is actually relatively simple. Newer scum players have a liability to panic when the chips are down, which may cause them to say much more than they need to. But, sometimes a simpler answer is the best.

To counter Nerjin's advice though, I suggest you start looking at what people have been saying and go. Find a comment that just doesn't sit well with you and apply pressure.

---

Nerjin: Lean scum. Nerjin has been lurking quite a bit this game, whether on account of his own volition or if his life simply has been a bit busier as of late. The slightly dismissive manner by which he told Squill to go look at the front page for advice bothers me. At this late of a junction in the game, someone coming into this game is going to need a lot focused advice, as opposed to general scum-hunting tips.

Quote from: Nerjin on August 16, 2013, 02:40:49 pm

Quote from: birdy51 on August 15, 2013, 09:12:30 pm

Squill: Welcome to the game. Are you scum?

[...]

Nerjin: Yesterday, you came into the vote very late and was not given any chances to give in your insight on the situation as a whole. How do you plan on addressing Day 3?

Your first question is kinda... Wasted. But I suppose it's a fair enough one. As for the question addressed to me: I'm going to reread days 1 and 2 and then get back to you on that one. After every day you should re-read the previous ones. Even if it's just a quick re-read to refresh your memory.

Believe it or not, the "are you scum question?" was one the first I had answered coming into this game. I spent a good thirty minutes trying to figure out how to respond to it, panicking and going through different options and scenarios. However, the easiest answer was right in front of me. I'm not scum, so why should I be worried about that question? So I ended up writing something much similar.

Captain Ford would then go on to explain the question's significance as I have for Squill. It's by no means a wasted question, just an unorthodox one.


Now, as for your answer to my question. I don't feel very confident in your answer. Rereading only does so much, and I believe Griffionday has a point in that we have to keep moving forward with our arguments. There comes a point where we have to stop rereading the entire thread cover to cover, and starting acting today. Especially given a player of your own position.

So far, you've been very, very quiet. I didn't see you much on Day 2, until you joined the bandwagon on IG and you've yet to post anything significant yet today. Optimally, Day 3 should be a day where you make your way back into the game, and yet you choose to spend a good portion of your time on rereading. This bothers me a lot, considering you are our IC, the player who should be  To quote someone, "The game does not run on idle wheels." As of right now, you are lurking heavily. I realize you have your reasons, but come now. There comes a time where you just have to stop making excuses and just go. Live in the present. There is a time for rereading and there is a time for creating new material to work off of.

I think relying too much on past material is what has stagnated this game in the past, because we become incapable of moving forward.

---

Griffinpup: Scum. I have come to believe that Griffinpup is not  playing with the Town's survival in mind. There a few things that he has said just today that do not sit right with me.

Quote from: griffinpup on August 16, 2013, 04:43:45 pm

3.  I never insulted Griffionday's playstyle, only Griffionday as a person.

First I want to bring up this. Here Griffinpup admits to the use of Ad Hominem, a deceptive technique by which you insult your rival in order to discredit their opinions. He couldn't counterclaim against his logic, so Griffinpup opted to attack Griffionday directly instead. I hate to tell Griffin, but "You're wrong, because you're stupid." is not an acceptable counterargument when you are trying refute someone under any circumstances.

I find the idea that Griffinpup relied on the principle of Ad Hominem to counter Griffionday scummy. There is no conceivable point in attacking other players, other than to dishonestly discredit both them as players and their arguments. If disagree with someone, present a counter argument. The resulting conflict has far more value than if you were to simply insult another player and call it a day.

Quote from: griffinpup on August 16, 2013, 04:43:45 pm

Quote from: Rolepgeek on August 15, 2013, 10:39:54 pm

Griffinpup: 1. The person I think is most likely to be scum, as he may have been building the arguement between him and IG to make it seem like they were at odds and thus neither was scum. 2. Also, for whatever reason, he got really pissy with Griffionday, 3. in addition to insulting his playstyle whilst simultaneously telling Griffionday to stop doing the same to him. 4. And yet he's been the one to continuously comment about people being 'emotionally-driven'.

1.  WIFOM like none other.
2.  Not a scumtell.
3.  I never insulted Griffionday's playstyle, only Griffionday as a person.
4.  "Emotionally Driven" and "Feels Emotion" are two separate and distinct things.

Then there is this juicy tidbit. The citing WIFOM in order to disregard another person's argument is also very scum move. Why? Because nearly everything in this game is WIFOM and reading the other players.

Look around, and you'll see WIFOM everywhere. Making a character judgement? That is affected by WIFOM. Determining who's scum? More WIFOM. Determining who did what in the night? Even more WIFOM!

Performing character judgments based upon their words and actions is a natural and inevitable part of the game. Rolepgeek just made an accusation against you. Griffinpup right. That is WIFOM. But instead of addressing the accusation, he called upon WIFOM as an excuse to hand-wave it, which is not at all a move a Townie would do. What he's done, is that he ignored the argument because he knew he couldn't defend against it.

There is more I want to say, but I need a bit more time than I have available right now. I have some singing to do!

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day Three - Missing Friend
Post by: Squill on August 18, 2013, 06:30:07 pm

Unvote

Quote from: Nerjin on August 18, 2013, 04:11:02 pm

Squill I don't have a lot to base off of but this seems a little "Too Easy" to go for. Please state YOUR case on one of those two people. Point out some scummy things they have done as well please. Simply saying that I have lurked [which is only partially true. I've also posted a lot and have put several reads on the table.] and that GriffPup is being argumentative [which seems like a meta argument.] isn't enough.

Rolepgeek has been fairly active, as has birdy.
Griffinpup is fiercely defending his own innocence, but not doing much else but countering against those who vote against him.
Nerjin is also doing little but defend himself, but he's doing much less posting.

The way I view it, right now I think that either nerjin or griffinpup are scum. Suppose we lynch griffinpup, and he flips scum, and we win. If he flips town, another town is killed tonight, and we still outvote scum.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day Three - Missing Friend
Post by: Rolepgeek on August 18, 2013, 07:14:59 pm

I'm going to have to vote Griffinpup then. The evidence myself and others have brought up is simply too damning. Your death will be informative, if you're townie, though.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day Two - Goblin Food - Replacement Requested
Post by: Okami No Rei on August 19, 2013, 11:07:43 am

10 Hours remain in the day.

Day Three will end on Tuesday, August 20 at 8:00pm.

griffinpup (3) - birdy51, Squill, Rolepgeek
Squill (1) - Nerjin
Rolepgeek (0) -
birdy51 (1) - griffinpup
Nerjin (0) -

Not Voting -

Extend (0/2) -
Shorten (0/3) -

Lurker Tracker (http://www.ocf.berkeley.edu/~azhou/projects/LT/zt.py?topic=127764&start=0&msg=4432342&numreplace=6&replaced0=TheWetSheep&replacer0=GUNINANRUNIN&replaced1=GUNINANRUNIN&replacer1=webadict&replaced2=Griffionday&replacer2=Squill&replaced3=Boy&replacer3=Chink&replaced4=Chink&replacer4=birdy51&replaced5=Powder%20Miner&replacer5=Rolepgeek&numlabel=10&player0=DaveTheGrave&label0=dead&player1=notquitethere&label1=dead&player2=Imperial%20Guardsman&label2=dead&player3=webadict&label3=dead&player4=Vector&label4=np&player5=Tiruin&label5=np&player6=Scelly9&label6=np&player7=Deathsword&label7=np&player8=zombie%20urist&label8=np&player9=mastahcheese&label9=np)

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day Three - Missing Friend
Post by: griffinpup on August 20, 2013, 10:52:14 am

Birdy #2:

Quote from: birdy51 on August 18, 2013, 05:37:44 pm

Griffinpup: Scum. I have come to believe that Griffinpup is not  playing with the Town's survival in mind. There a few things that he has said just today that do not sit right with me.

Quote from: griffinpup on August 16, 2013, 04:43:45 pm

3.  I never insulted Griffionday's playstyle, only Griffionday as a person.

First I want to bring up this. Here Griffinpup admits to the use of Ad Hominem,

Wrong.  I admit to not insulting Griffionday's playstyle and to insulting him personally, no to the use of Ad Homenem.

Quote

He couldn't counterclaim against his logic,

Quote from: griffinpup on August 16, 2013, 04:43:45 pm

3.  I never insulted Griffionday's playstyle, only Griffionday as a person.

Perhaps you should read the post that this quote is actually referring to.  I DID refute his logic.

Quote from: griffinpup on August 14, 2013, 04:18:05 pm

Quote from: Griffionday on August 08, 2013, 12:14:54 am

Quote from: griffinpup on August 07, 2013, 06:38:04 pm

So I don't have the literal right to ask someone to respond to my post after they ask for replacement?

You don't have a right to expect an answer until they're replaced. 

I disagree, but whatever.

Quote from: Griffionday on August 08, 2013, 12:14:54 am

Quote from: griffinpup on August 07, 2013, 06:38:04 pm

Quote from: Griffionday on August 07, 2013, 10:48:53 am

1. I'm not saying explain to him why you aren't lurking, I'm saying only defending yourself based on posting frequency is stupid. 

2. So you're saying one should do heavy research before voting for someone based on a case?  I agree in theory, but in practice this means that votes like Nerjin's current one are going to be more common.  I prefer having a case on the person you wish to lynch over leaving your pressure vote on someone who hasn't responded.

That obviously wasn't going to be my whole case.  That was mainly my precursor.  The fact that he refused to respond even to this kinda put a damper on my follow-up.

Care to explain what your follow up was?  If it's real it shouldn't require you to do any work...

Sure.  I would of then pushed him on the fact that the time-period was substantially less then twenty four hours and that I posted every day.  I would ask him his definition of lurking and explain why it was wrong.

Quote from: Griffionday on August 10, 2013, 01:42:18 am

Griffinpup: Why are you focusing exclusively on the past in this game when you could be generating your own material to read?  Interact with everyone, and once you've a feeling for them, move on and talk to someone else.  Seriously.  Your emphasis on reads, events, and past oriented hunting is equally detrimental to the game as IG. 

Wow.  You're brilliant.  We should totally do RVS again and ask each other inane questions to generate new content.  Of course, pushing people on stuff that they did in the past to generate content is a terrible idea, so we shouldn't do that.

Quote from: Griffionday on August 10, 2013, 01:42:18 am

Your emphasis on reads, events, and past oriented hunting is equally detrimental to the game as IG. 

Lying piece of crap.  I asked someone to elaborate on reads I couldn't understand ONCE.  It's not an "emphasis" of mine.  I have no idea why this seems like such a big deal to you.  Also, please find me somewhere where I put an emphasis on an event and why it's been so absolutely detrimental.  I'm fairly certain it doesn't exist.  I also have no idea why you are so against pushing people on anything that happened in the past.

Quote from: Griffionday on August 10, 2013, 01:42:18 am

I'm glad you're focusing exclusively on easy lynches (it makes you kinda obviously scum though), but don't you think you should question the more difficult ones as well?  I can guarantee there's far more satisfaction to be found there.

Lay off Griffionday.  Either grow some balls and vote me with a case, or stop insinuating that I'm scum and insulting my play style.

As I hope you can tell by this quote, I DID RESPOND TO HIS POINTS.  I also insulted him.  I didn't insult him to dodge his points.  Hence Ad Hominem doesn't apply.

Quote

so Griffinpup opted to attack Griffionday directly instead. I hate to tell Griffin, but "You're wrong, because you're stupid." is not an acceptable counterargument when you are trying refute someone under any circumstances.

And that's not the argument that I made. 

Quote

I find the idea that Griffinpup relied on the principle of Ad Hominem to counter Griffionday scummy. There is no conceivable point in attacking other players, other than to dishonestly discredit both them as players and their arguments. If disagree with someone, present a counter argument. The resulting conflict has far more value than if you were to simply insult another player and call it a day.

I did disagree with Griffionday, and I did PRESENT A COUNTER ARGUMENT. 

Quote

Quote from: griffinpup on August 16, 2013, 04:43:45 pm

Quote from: Rolepgeek on August 15, 2013, 10:39:54 pm

Griffinpup: 1. The person I think is most likely to be scum, as he may have been building the arguement between him and IG to make it seem like they were at odds and thus neither was scum. 2. Also, for whatever reason, he got really pissy with Griffionday, 3. in addition to insulting his playstyle whilst simultaneously telling Griffionday to stop doing the same to him. 4. And yet he's been the one to continuously comment about people being 'emotionally-driven'.

1.  WIFOM like none other.
2.  Not a scumtell.
3.  I never insulted Griffionday's playstyle, only Griffionday as a person.
4.  "Emotionally Driven" and "Feels Emotion" are two separate and distinct things.

Then there is this juicy tidbit. The citing WIFOM in order to disregard another person's argument is also very scum move.

I didn't cite WIFOM in order to disregard another person's argument.  It WASN'T an argument.  It was a possible explanation for my actions, which is heavily affected by WIFOM.  If he had actually made an argument out of that point I would of refuted it.  Since he didn't, I merely pointed out the WIFOM involved.

Quote

Why? because nearly everything in this game is WIFOM and reading the other players.
Look around, and you'll see WIFOM everywhere. Making a character judgement? That is affected by WIFOM.

How?

Quote

Determining who's scum? More WIFOM.

How?

Quote

Performing character judgments based upon their words and actions is a natural and inevitable part of the game. Rolepgeek just made an accusation against you.

Rolepgeek didn't make an accusation against me.

Quote

Griffinpup right. That is WIFOM. But instead of addressing the accusation, he called upon WIFOM as an excuse to hand-wave it, which is not at all a move a Townie would do. What he's done, is that he ignored the argument because he knew he couldn't defend against it.

Wrong.  I read it exactly as he stated it.

Quote from: Rolepgeek on August 15, 2013, 10:39:54 pm

as he may have been building the arguement between him and IG to make it seem like they were at odds and thus neither was scum.

If I had to summarize what this sentence means, I'd have to say this. 
"Griffinpup may have been building the argument between him and IG to make it seem as if they were at odds, and this would somehow make neither of them look like scum."
All I see is total speculation.  I don't see an accusation in here.  If I did, I would of refuted it.  But perhaps I missed it.  Please state what supposed accusation is in this sentence that you want me to answer.  From your point of view, this would be a great opportunity.  The majority of your case involves me avoiding this point because I couldn't adequately respond to this accusation.  So the next logical step for you is to TELL ME the accusation and see if I can respond to it.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day Three - Missing Friend
Post by: griffinpup on August 20, 2013, 10:53:26 am

I accidentally posted that other one.  This post was supposed to be above that one.  Hence, Birdy #2

Birdy:

Quote from: birdy51 on August 17, 2013, 02:26:41 pm

Quote from: griffinpup on August 17, 2013, 11:02:38 am

Birdy12:
Your predecessor lurked incessantly.
He sat his vote on Powder Miner day one, and never really commented on the lynching of Dave.
Chink never actually interacted with IG in anything but RVS.  This is a classic newb scumtell.  Scum attempt to simultaneously avoid bringing attention to their partner and avoid any associative tells with said partner.  This commonly involves no interaction whatsoever between them.

This argument again... Yes Chink lurked. This is a fact that has been pounded down already. That is where your argument stops making sense.

If you could quote where this point has been "pounded down" and why that doesn't make this a scumtell, I'd appreciate it.

Quote

You say he never had any strong interactions with IG. While true, Chink also never had any interactions outside of RVS with NQT. Further you have tastefully neglected to mention that he also had nearly no interactions with two other players, TheWetSheep/ Guninanarunin, and Griffionday. Chink avoiding addressing just Imperial Guardsman. He just never took the opportunity to address anyone.

Fair enough.  Though not addressing anyone, (lurking) is scummy by itself.

Quote

Quote from: griffinpup on August 17, 2013, 11:02:38 am

And since you've replaced in, you've voted IG. 

Quote from: birdy51 on August 09, 2013, 04:07:07 pm

Imperial Guardsman: Support your arguments. Preferably in something longer than single sentence groups. Beyond the flimsy reasoning on the basis of a mislynch, you didn't seem to have a single good reason for holding your vote on Griffonpup besides the fact that two other players had already voted for him. Do explain yourself.

But the interesting thing about this vote was how it was conditioned.
You never called IG scum.  In fact, you're not even voting him to be lynched.  No, you're voting him until he can explain his arguments.  This seems more and more like an attempt to go with what is popular opinion, but have a viable excuse to remove your vote if the opportunity presents itself and if your scumbuddy can be saved.  You continue this pattern with the rest of your posts.
more later

Finally something new.

Yes, I voted for IG. But I was not confident that he was scum, due to the sheer lack of content that he put out. So I pressured him so he could provide answers. When nothing came out of my vote, I was compelled to keep the vote there and lynch him for lurking. We've been through this. It's a pattern for a reason. I case you haven't noticed, this is a BM. My own goal is to see both myself and other players improve.

I'm not out to lynch everything in sight. If Imperial Guardsman had given a proper defense for himself, I would have unvoted him, even if not a single other player agreed with me.

If you didn't think IG was scum, what did you think about the huge bandwagon he did on me?  And who were your two scumpicks at the time? 

But all in all, your answers satisfy me, so Unvote.

Rolepgeek:

Quote from: Rolepgeek on August 17, 2013, 10:47:46 pm

Griffinpup: I went back through the thread and read over your case, and how IG interacted with him. And to be honest, I do disagree with your case.

I think what you mean is that you disagree with this single post of my case.  What's your opinion on this one?
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=127764.msg4434735#msg4434735
This post actually contains logical reasoning for why Dave is scum.  The post you quoted was merely follow-up questions.

Quote

Quote from: griffinpup on July 25, 2013, 10:50:24 pm

Dave:
You have stated that you found IG scummy, so you left your vote on him.  You also said that you left your vote on him as incentive to remove his.  Which is it?

Quote from: DaveTheGrave on July 25, 2013, 08:43:37 pm

I lost suspicion for one, and gained one for another.
- snip
I did, and still have suspicion.

In your latest post you offer a contradiction.  These are both about IG, and you say that you have lost any and all suspicion for him in your first statement.  You then say that you still have suspicion.  Which is it, and why the contradiction?
Why am I suddenly so suspicious? Is it because I voted you?

Here for example, you are putting words in his mouth. 'I lost suspicion' and 'lost any and all suspicion' are not the same. Having suspicion, and losing suspicison, are also not contradictory. I lost suspicion for birdy51, but still have suspicion. It's simply overshadowed, much like how my suspicion of IG had been overshadowed by my suspicion for him. Similarly, it's easy to have multiple reasons to vote someone. Poor reasons, but reasons nonetheless.

OK.  I acknowledge this point.  You are using a gradient measure of scumminess in your usage of the word suspicion, while I read it as an absolute usage of the word suspicion.  I read it as if suspicion was an object, and you either had it or you didn't.  It may be (and he later clarified that) that Dave simply meant suspicion in the usage which you assumed it was.

However, assuming that he was using an alternative usage of the term suspicion then the one he did use isn't scummy. 

Quote

From what I can tell, he didn't look scummy(or to clarify, once all was said and done, looking at the entire day 1, he didn't look scummy), he looked like town who had no idea what he was doing or, in all honesty, how the game was played.

I have to agree with this point.  After day one ended, he definitely looked like town.  Mainly because of his role flip.

Quote

Tying the vote up on purpose though, which means he should probably be lynched anyway as that's just dangerous behavior for town, but still.

So you agree with the lynch, but you disagree with most of the cases that were made?  OK.

Quote

Going back to your case, a short time later, you say he hasn't answered your questions, and tell him to once again. Yet, his reasoning in his response to Nerjin, did answer the question(s). And it was a measly two posts above your own. Granted, the first, about 'which one was it', he did not answer. But you then asked him for answers to the others, not just that one.

This has already been pointed out in this post

Quote from: griffinpup on July 27, 2013, 12:04:37 am

Quote from: TheWetSheep on July 26, 2013, 11:55:45 pm

Quote from: griffinpup on July 26, 2013, 04:24:31 pm

YOU HAVE NEVER STATED REASONS FOR VOTING ME.

3. Actually, he did. Right here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=127764.msg4436149#msg4436149).

3. Hmm.  I assumed that was about IG:

At this point, I didn't think that Dave had yet given a valid reason for voting IG, so I assumed that this was it.  Obviously, that wasn't popular opinion.

Quote

Which makes me wonder if you were purposefully ignoring it in hopes that other would skip over it and find him more suspicious.

Assuming I was scum, I wouldn't NEED to make him look more suspicious.  His play was horrendous.  You said yourself that he probably should have hanged purely because the large bandwagon vote.  There's little to no motivation from a scum standpoint to lie in such an obvious way purely because the potential benefit is minuscule. 

Quote

And then, it swings back around to you, griffinpup, with this post.

Quote from: griffinpup on July 26, 2013, 10:41:09 pm

Quote from: Griffionday on July 26, 2013, 10:26:22 pm

Quote from: griffinpup on July 26, 2013, 09:48:57 pm

Quote from: Chink on July 26, 2013, 07:08:42 pm

griffinpup: Why, do you think, are you second in the running for being lynched? What scumtells do you think you've been giving?

Because people have been voting me for fallacious reasoning. 
I haven't been giving off any scumtells.  Dave merely panicked, OMGUS'ing and bandwagon voting me to avoid being lynched.  In fact, he still hasn't given a reason for voting me other then a  vague accusation of scumminess.
TheWetSheep, on the other hand, has voted me on mistaken assumptions, and I believe that that misunderstanding will be sorted out promptly.

So... you been deliberately giving off no scumtells?  What about the one where you carefully give off no scum tells?

---

I wouldn't say deliberately, but I haven't given off any scum tells.  The scum tell of giving off no scum tells is a little silly, but isn't applicable either because that implies both intentionally avoiding scum tells, (which I haven't) and mainly deals with cases in which the player in question has been acting scummy, but has avoided every generic 'scum tell'.  I, on the other hand, emulate town play. :D

You say you haven't given off any scum tells. But...that would mean you were carefully watching yourself for scum tells.

Wrong.  It's fairly easy to remember if you've OMGUS'd, placed a bandwagon vote, or chainsawed.  At this point, the game hadn't been going on for very long and it was quite easy to remember whether I did anything particularly scummy yet.

Quote

Otherwise, how would you know?

I remembered.

Quote

You should be trying to find scum, not caring about whether or not you're giving tells.  That is. If you're town. The fact that you brought it up makes me think your mind was on it. Which makes me think you were purposefully trying not to give off scumtells.

"The fact you brought it up?"  I DIDN'T bring it up.  I was specifically asked what scumtells I was dropping.  I couldn't think of any.

Quote

And then, a bit later, you notice the answer Dave gave, when TheWetSheep brings it up. But you somehow think it was directed to IG. While I would have been confused as to who it was directed to, at all, I wouldn't assume it was IG. Particularly since he wasn't the latest recipient of DavetheGrave's vote. Whether that's something scum would do...I don't know. But the other townies might, so I bring it up.

I would think that this is a null-tell if anything.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day Three - Missing Friend
Post by: griffinpup on August 20, 2013, 11:12:32 am

Quote from: Squill on August 18, 2013, 06:30:07 pm

Griffinpup is fiercely defending his own innocence, but not doing much else but countering against those who vote against him.

I'm not exactly made of time, and completely ignoring people's attacks on me so I could scumhunt would decrease the effective power of my pressuring and would guarantee me as the next lynch target, a decidedly bad thing regardless of alignment.

Quote from: Squill on August 18, 2013, 06:30:07 pm

but not doing much else but countering against those who vote against him.

So finding and lynching IG (scum), isn't doing much?

Quote

The way I view it, right now I think that either nerjin or griffinpup are scum. Suppose we lynch griffinpup, and he flips scum, and we win. If he flips town, another town is killed tonight, and we still outvote scum.

This sounds exactly like planning lynches.  "We lynch X today, and then we can lynch Y tomorrow."  This is bad because it limits discussion similar to how policy lynches do. 
But Squill, where are your cases on Nerjin and I?  If you're planning on lynching both of us, you surely have more reason then what is attached to this paltry vote.

And Extend.
I'm not even sure if everyone will have time to respond to me by the end of the day, much less me responding back.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day Three - Missing Friend
Post by: Rolepgeek on August 20, 2013, 11:18:05 am

Extend

Well...shit. Those are good answers, griffinpup. I want to unvote you and try pushing someone else, but without an extend that will just result in a tie(which is just as bad or worse than a mislynch right now), or in you being lynched anyway.

I need to mull this over.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day Three - Missing Friend
Post by: Okami No Rei on August 21, 2013, 12:16:34 pm

Day has been extended.  Day now ends Friday, August 23 at 8:00pm CST

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day Three - Missing Friend
Post by: birdy51 on August 21, 2013, 03:50:47 pm

Just a note, I plan on trying to sift through the wall o text and respond tonight.

Distractions prevented me from doing so last night, most of them of my own devices! But now is a good time to get down to business...

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day Three - Missing Friend
Post by: birdy51 on August 21, 2013, 08:04:28 pm

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Quote from: griffinpup on August 20, 2013, 10:53:26 am

I accidentally posted that other one.  This post was supposed to be above that one.  Hence, Birdy #2

Birdy:

Quote from: birdy51 on August 17, 2013, 02:26:41 pm

Quote from: griffinpup on August 17, 2013, 11:02:38 am

Birdy12:
Your predecessor lurked incessantly.
He sat his vote on Powder Miner day one, and never really commented on the lynching of Dave.
Chink never actually interacted with IG in anything but RVS.  This is a classic newb scumtell.  Scum attempt to simultaneously avoid bringing attention to their partner and avoid any associative tells with said partner.  This commonly involves no interaction whatsoever between them.

This argument again... Yes Chink lurked. This is a fact that has been pounded down already. That is where your argument stops making sense.

[1]If you could quote where this point has been "pounded down" and why that doesn't make this a scumtell, I'd appreciate it.

Quote

You say he never had any strong interactions with IG. While true, Chink also never had any interactions outside of RVS with NQT. Further you have tastefully neglected to mention that he also had nearly no interactions with two other players, TheWetSheep/ Guninanarunin, and Griffionday. Chink avoiding addressing just Imperial Guardsman. He just never took the opportunity to address anyone.

Fair enough.  Though not addressing anyone, (lurking) is scummy by itself.

Quote

Quote from: griffinpup on August 17, 2013, 11:02:38 am

And since you've replaced in, you've voted IG. 

Quote from: birdy51 on August 09, 2013, 04:07:07 pm

Imperial Guardsman: Support your arguments. Preferably in something longer than single sentence groups. Beyond the flimsy reasoning on the basis of a mislynch, you didn't seem to have a single good reason for holding your vote on Griffonpup besides the fact that two other players had already voted for him. Do explain yourself.

But the interesting thing about this vote was how it was conditioned.
You never called IG scum.  In fact, you're not even voting him to be lynched.  No, you're voting him until he can explain his arguments.  This seems more and more like an attempt to go with what is popular opinion, but have a viable excuse to remove your vote if the opportunity presents itself and if your scumbuddy can be saved.  You continue this pattern with the rest of your posts.
more later

Finally something new.

Yes, I voted for IG. But I was not confident that he was scum, due to the sheer lack of content that he put out. So I pressured him so he could provide answers. When nothing came out of my vote, I was compelled to keep the vote there and lynch him for lurking. We've been through this. It's a pattern for a reason. I case you haven't noticed, this is a BM. My own goal is to see both myself and other players improve.

I'm not out to lynch everything in sight. If Imperial Guardsman had given a proper defense for himself, I would have unvoted him, even if not a single other player agreed with me.

[2]If you didn't think IG was scum, what did you think about the huge bandwagon he did on me?  And who were your two scumpicks at the time? 

But all in all, your answers satisfy me, so Unvote.

Quote from: griffinpup on August 20, 2013, 10:52:14 am

Birdy #2:

Quote from: birdy51 on August 18, 2013, 05:37:44 pm

Griffinpup: Scum. I have come to believe that Griffinpup is not  playing with the Town's survival in mind. There a few things that he has said just today that do not sit right with me.

Quote from: griffinpup on August 16, 2013, 04:43:45 pm

3.  I never insulted Griffionday's playstyle, only Griffionday as a person.

First I want to bring up this. Here Griffinpup admits to the use of Ad Hominem,

[3] Wrong.  I admit to not insulting Griffionday's playstyle and to insulting him personally, no to the use of Ad Homenem.

Quote

He couldn't counterclaim against his logic,

Quote from: griffinpup on August 16, 2013, 04:43:45 pm

3.  I never insulted Griffionday's playstyle, only Griffionday as a person.

[4]Perhaps you should read the post that this quote is actually referring to.  I DID refute his logic.

Quote from: griffinpup on August 14, 2013, 04:18:05 pm

Quote from: Griffionday on August 08, 2013, 12:14:54 am

Quote from: griffinpup on August 07, 2013, 06:38:04 pm

So I don't have the literal right to ask someone to respond to my post after they ask for replacement?

You don't have a right to expect an answer until they're replaced. 

I disagree, but whatever.

Quote from: Griffionday on August 08, 2013, 12:14:54 am

Quote from: griffinpup on August 07, 2013, 06:38:04 pm

Quote from: Griffionday on August 07, 2013, 10:48:53 am

1. I'm not saying explain to him why you aren't lurking, I'm saying only defending yourself based on posting frequency is stupid. 

2. So you're saying one should do heavy research before voting for someone based on a case?  I agree in theory, but in practice this means that votes like Nerjin's current one are going to be more common.  I prefer having a case on the person you wish to lynch over leaving your pressure vote on someone who hasn't responded.

That obviously wasn't going to be my whole case.  That was mainly my precursor.  The fact that he refused to respond even to this kinda put a damper on my follow-up.

Care to explain what your follow up was?  If it's real it shouldn't require you to do any work...

Sure.  I would of then pushed him on the fact that the time-period was substantially less then twenty four hours and that I posted every day.  I would ask him his definition of lurking and explain why it was wrong.

Quote from: Griffionday on August 10, 2013, 01:42:18 am

Griffinpup: Why are you focusing exclusively on the past in this game when you could be generating your own material to read?  Interact with everyone, and once you've a feeling for them, move on and talk to someone else.  Seriously.  Your emphasis on reads, events, and past oriented hunting is equally detrimental to the game as IG. 

Wow.  You're brilliant.  We should totally do RVS again and ask each other inane questions to generate new content.  Of course, pushing people on stuff that they did in the past to generate content is a terrible idea, so we shouldn't do that.

Quote from: Griffionday on August 10, 2013, 01:42:18 am

Your emphasis on reads, events, and past oriented hunting is equally detrimental to the game as IG. 

Lying piece of crap.  I asked someone to elaborate on reads I couldn't understand ONCE.  It's not an "emphasis" of mine.  I have no idea why this seems like such a big deal to you.  Also, please find me somewhere where I put an emphasis on an event and why it's been so absolutely detrimental.  I'm fairly certain it doesn't exist.  I also have no idea why you are so against pushing people on anything that happened in the past.

Quote from: Griffionday on August 10, 2013, 01:42:18 am

I'm glad you're focusing exclusively on easy lynches (it makes you kinda obviously scum though), but don't you think you should question the more difficult ones as well?  I can guarantee there's far more satisfaction to be found there.

Lay off Griffionday.  Either grow some balls and vote me with a case, or stop insinuating that I'm scum and insulting my play style.

[5]As I hope you can tell by this quote, I DID RESPOND TO HIS POINTS.  I also insulted him.  I didn't insult him to dodge his points.  Hence Ad Hominem doesn't apply.

Quote

so Griffinpup opted to attack Griffionday directly instead. I hate to tell Griffin, but "You're wrong, because you're stupid." is not an acceptable counterargument when you are trying refute someone under any circumstances.

[6]And that's not the argument that I made.  

Quote

I find the idea that Griffinpup relied on the principle of Ad Hominem to counter Griffionday scummy. There is no conceivable point in attacking other players, other than to dishonestly discredit both them as players and their arguments. If disagree with someone, present a counter argument. The resulting conflict has far more value than if you were to simply insult another player and call it a day.

[7]I did disagree with Griffionday, and I did PRESENT A COUNTER ARGUMENT.
 

Quote

Quote from: griffinpup on August 16, 2013, 04:43:45 pm

Quote from: Rolepgeek on August 15, 2013, 10:39:54 pm

Griffinpup: 1. The person I think is most likely to be scum, as he may have been building the arguement between him and IG to make it seem like they were at odds and thus neither was scum. 2. Also, for whatever reason, he got really pissy with Griffionday, 3. in addition to insulting his playstyle whilst simultaneously telling Griffionday to stop doing the same to him. 4. And yet he's been the one to continuously comment about people being 'emotionally-driven'.

1.  WIFOM like none other.
2.  Not a scumtell.
3.  I never insulted Griffionday's playstyle, only Griffionday as a person.
4.  "Emotionally Driven" and "Feels Emotion" are two separate and distinct things.

Then there is this juicy tidbit. The citing WIFOM in order to disregard another person's argument is also very scum move.

[8]I didn't cite WIFOM in order to disregard another person's argument.  It WASN'T an argument.  It was a possible explanation for my actions, which is heavily affected by WIFOM.  If he had actually made an argument out of that point I would of refuted it.  Since he didn't, I merely pointed out the WIFOM involved.

Quote

Why? because nearly everything in this game is WIFOM and reading the other players.
Look around, and you'll see WIFOM everywhere. Making a character judgement? That is affected by WIFOM.

[9]How?

Quote

Determining who's scum? More WIFOM.

[10]How?

Quote

Performing character judgments based upon their words and actions is a natural and inevitable part of the game. Rolepgeek just made an accusation against you.

Rolepgeek didn't make an accusation against me.

Quote

Griffinpup right. That is WIFOM. But instead of addressing the accusation, he called upon WIFOM as an excuse to hand-wave it, which is not at all a move a Townie would do. What he's done, is that he ignored the argument because he knew he couldn't defend against it.

[11]Wrong.  I read it exactly as he stated it.

Griffinpup:

I cannot quote worth a damn, so I edited your own post a bit. Note that the questions and statements I'm responding to are numbered and colored blue.

[1]If you could quote where this point has been "pounded down" and why that doesn't make this a scumtell, I'd appreciate it.

...Though not addressing anyone, (lurking) is scummy by itself.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Quote from: birdy51 on August 09, 2013, 04:07:07 pm

Quote from: Rolepgeek on August 09, 2013, 10:50:32 am

birdy12: Why do you think your predecessors have been so lurky? What do you think of the events so far? How scummy does Imperial Guardsman seem?

[spoiler]

Quote from: Chink on August 08, 2013, 10:30:08 am

Replacement Requested

Sorry, but I just can't expect to have the time for this for a while.

Quote

I believe *this* may have something to do with it. Lurking is quite easy when you don't have enough time to dedicate a proper post. It's the same way with Boy. Things come up. I was on the fence of joining this game due to not knowing how much time I could dedicate. However, at this point it looks like you need someone who is simply willing to post at all. >.<

Giving an explanation for Chink's lurking was the first thing I was asked to do after replacing in. Having to justify his behavior twice now is a bit of a nuisance.  To tell the plain truth, I don't understand why he had lurked. I suppose that he didn't have enough time to put in an effort. Frankly, that's all I can believe, considering there was no reason for his lurking otherwise.

As to your second point, I won't deny that active-lurking and lurking are scumtells. Interpret them as you wish, as I've already given my own thoughts on whether Chink's lurking.

[2]If you didn't think IG was scum, what did you think about the huge bandwagon he did on me?  And who were your two scumpicks at the time? 

But all in all, your answers satisfy me, so Unvote.

I never said that I didn't think he was scum, only that his behaviour bothered me greatly. I recall saying the words, "He is either scum or absolute crap." I just didn't know which group he fell into.

As for a second scumpick, I had none. I was still more or less trying to assert myself in the game for the greater part of Day 2. Rolepgeek may have been on my list for bits of time, but I never really had much reason to suspect him.

[3] Wrong.  I admit to not insulting Griffionday's playstyle and to insulting him personally, no to the use of Ad Homenem.

Whether you realize it or not, you were using Ad Hominem. Ad Hominem is simply degrading the integrity of another man in order to degrade their case. Calling another person a "lying piece of crap" and telling them to "grow some balls" falls into this plane.

[4]Perhaps you should read the post that this quote is actually referring to.  I DID refute his logic.

Not that I can see. Most of  your "refuting" was defending yourself and demanding that Griffionday make a case against you, as opposed to addressing Griffionday's point that relying too much on the past can be dangerous.

[5]As I hope you can tell by this quote, I DID RESPOND TO HIS POINTS.  I also insulted him.  I didn't insult him to dodge his points.  Hence Ad Hominem doesn't apply.

While you may have responded to his points, it was not in a manner that contributed to meaningful dialogue. Particularly, Griffionday prodded you on not looking for the "easy" lynches. I don't classify that as a proper response.

[6]And that's not the argument that I made.  

That was a mannerism of speech on my end regarding Ad Hominem. The infusion of sarcasm and insults into responses infringes upon the validity of the argument.

[7]I did disagree with Griffionday, and I did PRESENT A COUNTER ARGUMENT.

One tainted with Ad Hominem.

[8]I didn't cite WIFOM in order to disregard another person's argument.  It WASN'T an argument.  It was a possible explanation for my actions, which is heavily affected by WIFOM.  If he had actually made an argument out of that point I would of refuted it.  Since he didn't, I merely pointed out the WIFOM involved.

Perhaps it wasn't an argument yet. But that doesn't change the fact you still hand waved the idea as WIFOM. You didn't want to address the idea.

[9]How?

I'll answer your one word question with another question that should answer your question.

Urist McPlayer is playing Mafia at LYLO. Near the end of the day, he is the lynch target and is flailing wildly and begging not to be killed. The other Townie now has to decide whether he's telling the truth based on his antics, and the antics of the other player, Urist McShifty, who has been lurking for most of the game until this very last day.

Who is the scum?

[10]How?

Same question as above, only now both Urists are claiming to be the cop, and are pointing fingers at one another.

[11]Wrong.  I read it exactly as he stated it.

No you haven't. Beyond the words, "WIFOM like none other", I don't see you reading anything.


...Gah, that took me a greater part of the day to write out… For my own sake my good man, would you refrain from using so many quotations? They are good at times for clarifications, but quoting everything makes arguments considerably more difficult to go through.

---

Rolepgeek:

Quote from: Rolepgeek on August 20, 2013, 11:18:05 am

Extend

Well...shit. Those are good answers, griffinpup. I want to unvote you and try pushing someone else, but without an extend that will just result in a tie(which is just as bad or worse than a mislynch right now), or in you being lynched anyway.

I need to mull this over.

Don't be so afraid to shift your vote around it you need to. You already extended the day regardless.


Besides, I think people only get worried about the vote being tied when it is exceedingly close to the deadline that the votes get shifted around. Such as an hour before the Day ends for instance.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day Three - Missing Friend
Post by: zombie urist on August 21, 2013, 08:18:20 pm

never use that blue again like that

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day Three - Missing Friend
Post by: birdy51 on August 21, 2013, 08:19:30 pm

Quote from: zombie urist on August 21, 2013, 08:18:20 pm

never use that blue again like that

Might I ask why?

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day Three - Missing Friend
Post by: Nerjin on August 21, 2013, 08:34:36 pm

Because it's a pain to read.

On that note: I'll be gone until Sunday. I don't have enough time for the mafia and all of you seem to be doing alright. I'll still do IC stuffs but actual reads and the like are a no-go for a while.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day Three - Missing Friend
Post by: Rolepgeek on August 21, 2013, 09:22:56 pm

QUICK LET'S LYNCH NERJIN

No. Now, I have an issue here. I'm starting to think it's Birdy again. But Birdy himself brings up good points about griffinpup's arguments. Not ones to make him seem scummy; a lot of it is semantics, which I don't care for, but the arguments that griffinpup brings up against Birdy.

So I'm gonna Unvote and hope I can figure this out from watching you guys, since I've already combed through the thread for all of you. Except Squill/Griffionday. And sort-of Nerjin, but he's got few enough posts and has given notice for most of his absences that I think I've gotten a decent idea of him. But since I'm hungry and just got done with an hour and a half of weeding, I'm not going to comb the thread right now.

Be sure to bump in a day or two at most so I can be reminded to comb.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day Three - Missing Friend
Post by: Squill on August 21, 2013, 10:01:07 pm

Unvote
Griffinpup's made good arguments. I really need to see how things develop, and look back to see if I missed anything.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day Three - Missing Friend
Post by: Rolepgeek on August 22, 2013, 09:12:07 pm

So, to start off, I was looking back through, and suspicion was once again building up for griffinpup, and then it all deflated with this simple post:

Quote from: griffinpup

IG:
That's the second scummiest vote in this game so far.  That was a HUGE bandwagon.  Do you have a real case on me?

It was a huge post, so I didn't bother actually quoting it. Sorry.

But from then on, the interactions with IG, as well as Nerjin's interactions, leads me to think that of the people available, Squill/Griffionday is the scum. Him, or birdy51. I could be horribly wrong and doom us all, particularly since I really am having trouble deciphering who is scum at this point, but from what I can tell, Squill's lynch would give us the most information, particularly after the night-kill.

Though I have a bad feeling I'll be the night-kill since everyone seems to agree I'm town. :/

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day Three - Missing Friend
Post by: Rolepgeek on August 22, 2013, 09:12:27 pm

Oh right, almost forgot:

Squill

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day Three - Missing Friend
Post by: Squill on August 22, 2013, 09:20:33 pm

Quote from: Rolepgeek on August 22, 2013, 09:12:27 pm

Oh right, almost forgot:

Squill

To be honest, I don't think I'm quite good enough at this game to really help, so if you think it'll help town win, then I see no reason not to lynch me.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day Three - Missing Friend
Post by: Nerjin on August 22, 2013, 09:25:04 pm

Quote from: Squill on August 22, 2013, 09:20:33 pm

Quote from: Rolepgeek on August 22, 2013, 09:12:27 pm

Oh right, almost forgot:

Squill

To be honest, I don't think I'm quite good enough at this game to really help, so if you think it'll help town win, then I see no reason not to lynch me.

Y'know Squill if you really want town to win you should be searching for cases and the like regardless of how you feel you're doing. [I personally think you're doing fine but if YOU don't think you will help us then why should I?]

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day Three - Missing Friend
Post by: Squill on August 22, 2013, 10:55:25 pm

Quote from: Nerjin on August 22, 2013, 09:25:04 pm

Quote from: Squill on August 22, 2013, 09:20:33 pm

Quote from: Rolepgeek on August 22, 2013, 09:12:27 pm

Oh right, almost forgot:

Squill

To be honest, I don't think I'm quite good enough at this game to really help, so if you think it'll help town win, then I see no reason not to lynch me.

Y'know Squill if you really want town to win you should be searching for cases and the like regardless of how you feel you're doing. [I personally think you're doing fine but if YOU don't think you will help us then why should I?]

It's just been a bit confusing being dropped in towards what feels like near the end of the game. I'm still not convinced it's not griffinpup, but I really don't have any evidence, so...

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day Three - Missing Friend
Post by: Rolepgeek on August 22, 2013, 11:05:03 pm

Quote from: Squill on August 22, 2013, 10:55:25 pm

Quote from: Nerjin on August 22, 2013, 09:25:04 pm

Quote from: Squill on August 22, 2013, 09:20:33 pm

Quote from: Rolepgeek on August 22, 2013, 09:12:27 pm

Oh right, almost forgot:

Squill

To be honest, I don't think I'm quite good enough at this game to really help, so if you think it'll help town win, then I see no reason not to lynch me.

Y'know Squill if you really want town to win you should be searching for cases and the like regardless of how you feel you're doing. [I personally think you're doing fine but if YOU don't think you will help us then why should I?]

It's just been a bit confusing being dropped in towards what feels like near the end of the game. I'm still not convinced it's not griffinpup, but I really don't have any evidence, so...

So get some. Look back through the thread, starting at page 11. The Lurker Tracker Okami has been posting could be helpful. Look at everything griffinpup's done, and the context it was done in. Particularly look at his interactions with those people still here, and Imperial Guardsman most of all. Do the same for all of us, really. That's how you get an idea of what's going on.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day Two - Goblin Food - Replacement Requested
Post by: Okami No Rei on August 23, 2013, 10:54:40 am

9 Hours remain in the day.

Day Three will end on Friday, August 23 at 8:00pm.

griffinpup (1) - birdy51
Squill (2) - Nerjin, Rolepgeek
Rolepgeek (0) -
birdy51 (0) -
Nerjin (0) -

Not Voting - griffinpup, Squill

Extend (0/2) -
Shorten (0/3) -

Lurker Tracker (http://www.ocf.berkeley.edu/~azhou/projects/LT/zt.py?topic=127764&start=0&msg=4432342&numreplace=6&replaced0=TheWetSheep&replacer0=GUNINANRUNIN&replaced1=GUNINANRUNIN&replacer1=webadict&replaced2=Griffionday&replacer2=Squill&replaced3=Boy&replacer3=Chink&replaced4=Chink&replacer4=birdy51&replaced5=Powder%20Miner&replacer5=Rolepgeek&numlabel=10&player0=DaveTheGrave&label0=dead&player1=notquitethere&label1=dead&player2=Imperial%20Guardsman&label2=dead&player3=webadict&label3=dead&player4=Vector&label4=np&player5=Tiruin&label5=np&player6=Scelly9&label6=np&player7=Deathsword&label7=np&player8=zombie%20urist&label8=np&player9=mastahcheese&label9=np)

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day Three - Missing Friend
Post by: birdy51 on August 23, 2013, 03:24:03 pm

Hrmm...

Unvote

I need to lay aside my suspicions of Griffinpup for now. I don't trust what is going on with this vote. This all feels like a rushed attempt to get rid of a new player.

Nerjin, Rolepgeek: Elaborate on what makes you think Squill is scum.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day Three - Missing Friend
Post by: Nerjin on August 23, 2013, 03:34:02 pm

Quote from: Squill on August 22, 2013, 09:20:33 pm

Quote from: Rolepgeek on August 22, 2013, 09:12:27 pm

Oh right, almost forgot:

Squill

To be honest, I don't think I'm quite good enough at this game to really help, so if you think it'll help town win, then I see no reason not to lynch me.

My original vote was because he made a weak case. I could see what he meant to say so I voted him to try to give him some incentive for making a stronger case. Then he said the stuff above.

It just felt too much like a "I'm gonna try to reverse psychology them into not voting me.". It just seems wrong. I personally think Squill would do fine if he had come in earlier. Being a replacement is tough.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day Three - Missing Friend
Post by: birdy51 on August 23, 2013, 04:54:09 pm

Quote from: Nerjin on August 23, 2013, 03:34:02 pm

Quote from: Squill on August 22, 2013, 09:20:33 pm

Quote from: Rolepgeek on August 22, 2013, 09:12:27 pm

Oh right, almost forgot:

Squill

To be honest, I don't think I'm quite good enough at this game to really help, so if you think it'll help town win, then I see no reason not to lynch me.

My original vote was because he made a weak case. I could see what he meant to say so I voted him to try to give him some incentive for making a stronger case. Then he said the stuff above.

It just felt too much like a "I'm gonna try to reverse psychology them into not voting me.". It just seems wrong. I personally think Squill would do fine if he had come in earlier. Being a replacement is tough.

I don't think this is reverse psychology. Squill has been struggling since he step foot into the game. The Lurker Tracker helps, but there is no denying that there is a crapton of material to sort through. With considerations made that he doesn't know any of us yet, his defeatism is begrudgingly justified.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day Three - Missing Friend
Post by: griffinpup on August 23, 2013, 06:58:48 pm

Unlike you, I'm quite good at quoting stuff.

Quote from: birdy51 on August 21, 2013, 08:04:28 pm

Note that the questions and statements I'm responding to are numbered and colored blue.

Interesting.  You're choosing which points you respond too...  This becomes important later.

Quote from: birdy51 on August 21, 2013, 08:04:28 pm

[3] Wrong.  I admit to not insulting Griffionday's playstyle and to insulting him personally, no to the use of Ad Homenem.

Whether you realize it or not, you were using Ad Hominem. Ad Hominem is simply degrading the integrity of another man in order to degrade their case. Calling another person a "lying piece of crap" and telling them to "grow some balls" falls into this plane.

Oh, I understand now.  You actually don't care whether I refuted his points or not.  All you care about is that I insulted someone.  By your arguments, any time anyone insults anyone, it is qualified under Ad Hominem.  Well Birdy, guess what?  WE ARE REAL PEOPLE.  We have feelings.  We can insult people if we want.  For reference, look at the clearly derisive tones and insults Gun shot my way while he pushed inane case.  HE turned out to be town.

Quote from: birdy51 on August 21, 2013, 08:04:28 pm

[4]Perhaps you should read the post that this quote is actually referring to.  I DID refute his logic.

Not that I can see.

Wait, yes you can.  In your next paragraph you say that I responded to his points.

Quote from: birdy51 on August 21, 2013, 08:04:28 pm

While you may have responded to his points

But let's move on

Quote from: birdy51 on August 21, 2013, 08:04:28 pm

[4]Perhaps you should read the post that this quote is actually referring to.  I DID refute his logic.

Most of  your "refuting" was defending yourself

Which is refuting his points on me, yes.

Quote from: birdy51 on August 21, 2013, 08:04:28 pm

and demanding that Griffionday make a case against you, as opposed to addressing Griffionday's point that relying too much on the past can be dangerous.

Quote the points that I failed to address.  Don't just make them up or reference them without proof.

Quote from: birdy51 on August 21, 2013, 08:04:28 pm

[5]As I hope you can tell by this quote, I DID RESPOND TO HIS POINTS.  I also insulted him.  I didn't insult him to dodge his points.  Hence Ad Hominem doesn't apply.

While you may have responded to his points, it was not in a manner that contributed to meaningful dialogue.

Define a meaningful dialogue.
Demonstrate how the dialogue Griffionday and I had was not meaningful.
Why does whether or not it contributes to a meaningful dialogue make me scummy?

Quote from: birdy51 on August 21, 2013, 08:04:28 pm

Particularly, Griffionday prodded you on not looking for the "easy" lynches. I don't classify that as a proper response.

Griffionday neither made a valid point, asked a question, or raised anything other then a vague accusation addressed to me.  So, yes I chose to prod him into making something that I actually could respond to.
Perhaps you disagree with my "easy" lynches.  Do you disagree with the "easy" lynch of IG?

Quote from: birdy51 on August 21, 2013, 08:04:28 pm

[6]And that's not the argument that I made.  

That was a mannerism of speech on my end regarding Ad Hominem. The infusion of sarcasm and insults into responses infringes upon the validity of the argument.

Do you disagree with the validity of my argument?

Quote from: birdy51 on August 21, 2013, 08:04:28 pm

[7]I did disagree with Griffionday, and I did PRESENT A COUNTER ARGUMENT.

One tainted with Ad Hominem.

In this statement you implicitly express agreement that I did make a counter argument.  This goes against what you said earlier.

Quote from: birdy51 on August 18, 2013, 05:37:44 pm

I hate to tell Griffin, but "You're wrong, because you're stupid." is not an acceptable counterargument when you are trying refute someone under any circumstances.

Quote from: birdy51 on August 18, 2013, 05:37:44 pm

If disagree with someone, present a counter argument. The resulting conflict has far more value than if you were to simply insult another player and call it a day.

In both of these quotes you imply that what I didn't present counter-arguments, and now you're saying that I did, but that they also included Ad Hominem.  Which is it?

Quote from: birdy51 on August 21, 2013, 08:04:28 pm

[8]I didn't cite WIFOM in order to disregard another person's argument.  It WASN'T an argument.  It was a possible explanation for my actions, which is heavily affected by WIFOM.  If he had actually made an argument out of that point I would of refuted it.  Since he didn't, I merely pointed out the WIFOM involved.

Perhaps it wasn't an argument yet. But that doesn't change the fact you still hand waved the idea as WIFOM. You didn't want to address the idea.

You agree that it wasn't an argument, but you still maintain that it's scummy to not address the sentence that wasn't an argument. 
It's true, I did state WIFOM.  But guess what, IT IS.

Quote from: birdy51 on August 21, 2013, 08:04:28 pm

[9]How?

I'll answer your one word question with another question that should answer your question.

Urist McPlayer is playing Mafia at LYLO. Near the end of the day, he is the lynch target and is flailing wildly and begging not to be killed. The other Townie now has to decide whether he's telling the truth based on his antics, and the antics of the other player, Urist McShifty, who has been lurking for most of the game until this very last day.

Who is the scum?

You gave one specific example that qualifies as WIFOM.  Congratulations.  Now answer the actual question.  How does WIFOM apply every time you make a character judgement?  How does WIFOM apply every time you determine who's scum?

Quote from: birdy51 on August 21, 2013, 08:04:28 pm

[11]Wrong.  I read it exactly as he stated it.

No you haven't. Beyond the words, "WIFOM like none other", I don't see you reading anything.

There's nothing I can say to respond to this.  You're arguing with me about whether I read something or not.  Stop it.

Quote from: birdy51 on August 18, 2013, 05:37:44 pm

What he's done, is that he ignored the argument because he knew he couldn't defend against it.

In this quote you state that it WAS an argument.  You also stated that I couldn't defend against this argument, and this is why I threw WIFOM at it.  Now you still maintain that it was scummy to say WIFOM, despite admitting that there wasn't actually an argument.

In fact, you blatantly ignored this whole paragraph of my response.

Quote from: griffinpup on August 20, 2013, 10:52:14 am

All I see is total speculation.  I don't see an accusation in here.  If I did, I would of refuted it.  But perhaps I missed it.  Please state what supposed accusation is in this sentence that you want me to answer.  From your point of view, this would be a great opportunity.  The majority of your case involves me avoiding this point because I couldn't adequately respond to this accusation.  So the next logical step for you is to TELL ME the accusation and see if I can respond to it.

And failed to tell me what accusation he was making.  The fact that you failed to do so is scummy.  It was obviously the next step in your case to see if your reasoning was correct.  If I  avoided the accusation, that means I avoided it for a reason.  By your own statement, "I knew I couldn't defend it."  Despite this being a majority of your case, you have yet to press on the particular point that would PROVE OR DISPROVE your case, EVEN after you were prompted to do so.  Town has incentive to truly find out if their case makes sense and is correct.  Scum have to push cases they fabricate.  They have great incentive for their cases to appear strong, and as such avoid trying to prove or disprove them, as they will inevitably be disproved. 
This blatant evasion of disproving your own case is now why I think your are scum, Birdy.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day Three - Missing Friend
Post by: Rolepgeek on August 23, 2013, 08:21:57 pm

birdy51: I don't think he's scum, not really. I'll be honest and say it. I want him lynched, however, because if he flips scum, we win. If he flips townie, however, it allows a host of new information to come rushing in, based on Griffionday's analyses and reactions, and his interactions with various players. And then it comes down to you, or griffinpup, at least in my mind. Nerjin could be scum, as he's said with IC voice, but I don't think so, based on his actions and style of play so far.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day Three - Missing Friend
Post by: Squill on August 23, 2013, 08:36:06 pm

A quick warning, I'm pretty sure that Day 4 will be your last vote. Make it count.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day Three - Missing Friend
Post by: birdy51 on August 23, 2013, 08:51:35 pm

Indeed. We'll have to see what happens on Day 4. We cannot afford to mislynch.

Anyways, I'm currently packing for college, and I move in tomorrow morning. Hopefully starting back up on that routine won't affect my ability to see this game through to the end.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day Two - Goblin Food - Replacement Requested
Post by: Okami No Rei on August 24, 2013, 12:03:19 am

Spoiler: The Point of it All (click to show/hide)

"I don't believe it.  It was you, wasn't it?  Your 'discovery' of the dead chief was all an act.  You were trying to deflect suspicion away from yourself!"
"What?  Me?  No!  It was no me!  I just try wake Chief up!  You all see.  I no kill him!"
They were lapping it up.  Every word fell into place like an ☼IRON MECHANISM☼.
"Then how do you explain his blood on your own sword?"
"You make that up! That not his blood!  That been there for weeks!"
It was funny how imminent death brought such clarity.
"No, my friend.  It is you who is making things up.  You were jealous of his rise to power.  You wanted to lead the goblins yourself."
"Well, yes.  That part true, but that not the point.  I no kill him!"
He could see it in their eyes.  They liked his story, and that made it true.  All of it.
"Yes, you did.  You killed him, and you'll kill any other goblin that stands in your way."
He turned to face the others, feigning distraction.  An opening in his defenses.
"It was him.  He's a threat to all"
Too easy.  Wasn't even trying to hide the sound of his charge.  He spun, bringing his spear up to knock aside the sword aimed for his back.
"You see!"
Push forward.  Knock him off balance.
"I move"
Smack his hand with the butt of the spear.  He drops his sword.
"that we"
Feint with the pointy end, then clock him in the head with the haft.
"execute him."
Get in close.  Headbutt while he's stunned. Knock him down.
"Any objections?"
Flourish.  Bring point to rest on his throat.  Dramatic pause.
"The motion carries."

Day Three has ended.

Squill has been lynched.

Squill was a Goblin Thief (Vanilla Town)

Final Votecount

griffinpup (0) -
Squill (2) - Nerjin, Rolepgeek
Rolepgeek (0) -
birdy51 (1) - griffinpup
Nerjin (0) -

Not Voting - Squill, birdy51

Lurker Tracker (http://www.ocf.berkeley.edu/~azhou/projects/LT/zt.py?topic=127764&start=0&msg=4432342&numreplace=6&replaced0=TheWetSheep&replacer0=GUNINANRUNIN&replaced1=GUNINANRUNIN&replacer1=webadict&replaced2=Griffionday&replacer2=Squill&replaced3=Boy&replacer3=Chink&replaced4=Chink&replacer4=birdy51&replaced5=Powder%20Miner&replacer5=Rolepgeek&numlabel=10&player0=DaveTheGrave&label0=dead&player1=notquitethere&label1=dead&player2=Imperial%20Guardsman&label2=dead&player3=webadict&label3=dead&player4=Vector&label4=np&player5=Tiruin&label5=np&player6=Scelly9&label6=np&player7=Deathsword&label7=np&player8=zombie%20urist&label8=np&player9=mastahcheese&label9=np)

Night Three has begun, and will end on Monday, August 26 at 8:00pm CST, or when I have received all night actions.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day Four - Dwarf Fortress 0.82.06
Post by: Okami No Rei on August 26, 2013, 11:49:16 am

Spoiler: Dwarf Fortress 0.82.06 (click to show/hide)

The Overseer sipped on a Mountain Dew, thumb hovering over the space-bar.

Now that the major bugs in the Espionage Arc had been "fixed" (many saw the treatment of sieges as migrants as a feature), he'd been experimenting.  Training and deploying several teams, he was attempting to determine the optimal number of Dwarves for intelligence and/or sabotage missions to the surrounding goblin camps, how their skills affected their success, and whether the quality of their disguises mattered.  He'd received a couple of reports back initially, but now all of his operatives where missing, presumed dead.

Except these two.

They'd returned with a goblin raiding party, still undercover, and their presence immediately tipped him off to the locations of the otherwise sneaking goblins.  He'd let the goblins in to his trading depot, leaving a few bins of expendable goods as bait, then closed the gate once they were inside.

Now, he watched.  The trap closed, they'd hidden in his old general stockpile, and then proceeded to... kill one another?

The goblins had killed one of their own, and one of his dwarves.  His dwarves had assassinated four goblins, one of them out in the open, with the others looking on.  By the dawn of their fourth day in hiding, there were now two goblins and one dwarf remaining.  This was getting good...

Night 3 has ended.

griffinpup has been killed!

griffinpup was a Goblin Thief (Vanilla Town)

Rolepgeek (0) -
birdy51 (0) -
Nerjin (0) -

Not Voting - Rolepgeek, birdy51, Nerjin

Shorten (0/2) -

Lurker Tracker (http://www.ocf.berkeley.edu/~azhou/projects/LT/zt.py?topic=127764&start=0&msg=4432342&numreplace=6&replaced0=TheWetSheep&replacer0=GUNINANRUNIN&replaced1=GUNINANRUNIN&replacer1=webadict&replaced2=Griffionday&replacer2=Squill&replaced3=Boy&replacer3=Chink&replaced4=Chink&replacer4=birdy51&replaced5=Powder%20Miner&replacer5=Rolepgeek&numlabel=10&player0=DaveTheGrave&label0=dead&player1=notquitethere&label1=dead&player2=Imperial%20Guardsman&label2=dead&player3=webadict&label3=dead&player4=Vector&label4=np&player5=Tiruin&label5=np&player6=Scelly9&label6=np&player7=Deathsword&label7=np&player8=zombie%20urist&label8=np&player9=mastahcheese&label9=np)

Day Four has begun.

Note: The game is now in LYLO (Lynch Scum or Lose).  Due to shenanigans in BMXLI, an experimental rule is now in effect.  There is no formal deadline.  The day will end when one of two conditions are met:

1.  Players vote to Shorten.  This vote may be conditional on lynching the player you are voting for (this is the only allowed conditional).  You must specify whether your vote is a Shorten or a Conditional Shorten.

2. More than 24 hours pass without anyone changing their vote.  This rule will not be enforced prior to the normal 72-hour time limit for days (Thursday, August 29 at 8:00pm CST).

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day Four - Dwarf Fortress 0.82.06
Post by: Rolepgeek on August 26, 2013, 11:55:47 am

Well then. That makes things a bit obvious. Griffinpup was pressuring birdy51, birdy51 has seemed scummy for a good amount of time now, and his only major competitor is now dead, and townie.

birdy51: Probably should've night killed Nerjin instead; then I'd have more trouble deciding.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day Four - Dwarf Fortress 0.82.06
Post by: Nerjin on August 26, 2013, 12:04:24 pm

Alright... So Rolepgeek why do you assume that the scum is birdy51? Please point out some relevant data that lead to this conclusion.

Where's NQT anyways? Isn't he still an IC? I haven't heard from him... Anyways:

This requires a LOT of work here. Reread the entire thread at least once. Keep in mind that one of us three is scum. How did each of us interact with the other players? What's our voting record?

Birdy51: Why didn't you vote yesterday? You stated that you were suspicious of Griffpup but you unvoted him because of mine and Rolepgeek's voting of Squill. What is your opinion now? Please state your case on your main suspect.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day Four - Dwarf Fortress 0.82.06
Post by: notquitethere on August 26, 2013, 01:49:56 pm

Quote from: Nerjin on August 26, 2013, 12:04:24 pm

Where's NQT anyways? Isn't he still an IC? I haven't heard from him... Anyways:

(I last appeared to give Squill some advice on Day 3 and I'll be watching the LYLO very attentively.)

---

LYLO TIME
Town or scum, there are three things I advise doing at this juncture:

• Watch the final showdown in The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=J0BrdMi-oyc#t=206). This will help set the right tone.
• Re-read the interactions between the other two players and confirmed scum.
• Look at how each player voted on each day and for what reason

If you're town, use this information to help weed out the traitor in your midst. If you're scum, use it to fill the other player's hearts with doubt.

This is my favourite time of a game: the whole thing is a puzzle laid out for you. If you want any general advice, I'm happy to answer questions.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day Four - Dwarf Fortress 0.82.06
Post by: birdy51 on August 26, 2013, 04:41:45 pm

Rolepgeek:

Quote from: Rolepgeek on August 26, 2013, 11:55:47 am

Well then. That makes things a bit obvious. Griffinpup was pressuring birdy51, birdy51 has seemed scummy for a good amount of time now, and his only major competitor is now dead, and townie.

birdy51: Probably should've night killed Nerjin instead; then I'd have more trouble deciding.

Your theory is based on the idea that I'm scum. However, it was quite apparent to everyone that Griffinpup and I were butting heads, a fact which his killer would have certainly took note of.

Nerjin:
 

Quote from: Nerjin on August 26, 2013, 12:04:24 pm

Alright... So Rolepgeek why do you assume that the scum is birdy51? Please point out some relevant data that lead to this conclusion.

Where's NQT anyways? Isn't he still an IC? I haven't heard from him... Anyways:

This requires a LOT of work here. Reread the entire thread at least once. Keep in mind that one of us three is scum. How did each of us interact with the other players? What's our voting record?

Birdy51: Why didn't you vote yesterday? You stated that you were suspicious of Griffpup but you unvoted him because of mine and Rolepgeek's voting of Squill. What is your opinion now? Please state your case on your main suspect.

Something felt off about the Squill lynch. Squill was a new player and the kind of player who would probably make mistakes. Then, he inadvertently presented himself as a target of opportunity by saying that he didn't know what to do at this late point in the game. Which prompted both you and Rolepgeek in rapid succession to vote to lynch him.

I unvoted Griffinpup so I could address the issue properly. Neither of  the cases you made against him were particularly strong. They were both light accusations that weren't strong enough to constitute the lynching of Squill.   Hell, Rolepgeek even admitted to the fact that he didn't think Squill was scum and yet he lynched him. However, you were coming from the position of an IC, a player meant to teach the younger players how to play. That didn't stop you either for picking on his mistake to your advantage.

So both of you flew onto my scum-radar rather rapidly. But I suppose none of that really matters right now.

The greatest question for me to answer now  who has been deceiving the Town. As it has been suggested, I need to allot some time to start on another reread and try to figure this one out before jumping into a case.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day Four - Dwarf Fortress 0.82.06
Post by: birdy51 on August 27, 2013, 08:56:42 pm

Alright... I've finished my reread.

Tommorow I'm going to give a heads up on what my thought process and who I believe is the most likely to be scum... But tonight I have to polish up on some homework.

We've all been a bit busy it seems... Judging on how silent the thread has been.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day One - A Cunning Plan
Post by: Rolepgeek on August 27, 2013, 09:39:15 pm

Quote from: Imperial Guardsman on July 24, 2013, 06:33:20 pm

Nerjin, you are a rolecop for the mafia. Who do you inspect first?
You rolecop and find the cop and the doctor. Which one do you and your scumbuddies lynch first?
Nerjin

This. Right here, this alone lets me know you're the scum, birdy.
This was his way of trying to subtly get Nerjin's advice. He could have done so completely privately if Nerjin was scum. This alone could make you the scum by process of elimination, but when you combine this with the peculiar way you've been acting, the fact that griffinpup, who was pushing a case on you, was the one to die, and the fact that your predecessors lurked incessantly, tells me that you are the scum. You just threw IG under the bus when it was clear that people were getting suspicious of him.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day Four - Dwarf Fortress 0.82.06
Post by: Rolepgeek on August 27, 2013, 09:39:42 pm

And of course I forget to actually vote you, birdy51

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day Four - Dwarf Fortress 0.82.06
Post by: Nerjin on August 28, 2013, 11:30:46 am

Alrghty... Time to re-read the thread and cast my vote and such.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day Four - Dwarf Fortress 0.82.06
Post by: Nerjin on August 28, 2013, 11:43:31 am

I want to hear Birdy's thoughts before I say anything because I noticed something that might mean a lot or very little depending on his actions.

Quote from: Rolepgeek on August 27, 2013, 09:39:15 pm

Quote from: Imperial Guardsman on July 24, 2013, 06:33:20 pm

Nerjin, you are a rolecop for the mafia. Who do you inspect first?
You rolecop and find the cop and the doctor. Which one do you and your scumbuddies lynch first?
Nerjin

This. Right here, this alone lets me know you're the scum, birdy.
This was his way of trying to subtly get Nerjin's advice.

You have no proof of this and it is WIFOM. He could just as easily have asked this question to distance the two of us. People rarely suspect scum in a BM of interacting a ton with eachother. It IS a powerful trend but not an all ending one. You need a bit more than just that to go on.

For now it looks like Rolepgeek is going to be my vote BUT as I said I want to hear from Birdy first.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day Four - Dwarf Fortress 0.82.06
Post by: birdy51 on August 28, 2013, 06:13:23 pm

Damn you Microsoft Paint Adventures... Converting my time into nothingness.

Long story short, I'm still organizing my case. For now though, I definitely want to bring up this:

Quote from: Rolepgeek on August 17, 2013, 10:47:46 pm

But, in combing through the thread for this information, I find something else.

Quote from: birdy51 on August 18, 2013, 05:37:44 pm

Quote from: Rolepgeek on August 17, 2013, 10:47:46 pm

But, in combing through the thread for this information, I find something else.

Quote from: Chink on July 26, 2013, 07:08:42 pm

IG: You are a Rolecop, D1. Who do you target N1, and why?

New evidence has come to light. Specifically, evidence that IG was a Rolecop. He'd asked, and been asked, questions about Rolecop before, as well. This is unlikely, to say the least, to be a coincidence. Combined with other factors(such as the relative low post count of Chink, the points you've brought up about him subsequently interacting very little with IG, and , this raises the suspicion factor on birdy51.

Also… Good catch on the RVS question between Chink and IG, but I am not certain what to make of it. But, if I had to wager a logical guess, I think this probably one case where the scum decides to taunt a townie.

Yet, Imperial Guardsman communicating with Nerjin doesn't bother in the slightest.

Quote from: Rolepgeek on August 27, 2013, 09:39:15 pm

Quote from: Imperial Guardsman on July 24, 2013, 06:33:20 pm

Nerjin, you are a rolecop for the mafia. Who do you inspect first?
You rolecop and find the cop and the doctor. Which one do you and your scumbuddies lynch first?
Nerjin

This. Right here, this alone lets me know you're the scum, birdy.
This was his way of trying to subtly get Nerjin's advice. He could have done so completely privately if Nerjin was scum. This alone could make you the scum by process of elimination, but when you combine this with the peculiar way you've been acting, the fact that griffinpup, who was pushing a case on you, was the one to die, and the fact that your predecessors lurked incessantly, tells me that you are the scum. You just threw IG under the bus when it was clear that people were getting suspicious of him.

Rolepgeek: You'll note that the two questions IG asked are one in the same. Is there any particular reason you are biased against me?

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day Four - Dwarf Fortress 0.82.06
Post by: Rolepgeek on August 28, 2013, 07:35:56 pm

Quote from: birdy51 on August 28, 2013, 06:13:23 pm

Damn you Microsoft Paint Adventures... Converting my time into nothingness.

Long story short, I'm still organizing my case. For now though, I definitely want to bring up this:

Quote from: Rolepgeek on August 17, 2013, 10:47:46 pm

But, in combing through the thread for this information, I find something else.

Quote from: birdy51 on August 18, 2013, 05:37:44 pm

Quote from: Rolepgeek on August 17, 2013, 10:47:46 pm

But, in combing through the thread for this information, I find something else.

Quote from: Chink on July 26, 2013, 07:08:42 pm

IG: You are a Rolecop, D1. Who do you target N1, and why?

New evidence has come to light. Specifically, evidence that IG was a Rolecop. He'd asked, and been asked, questions about Rolecop before, as well. This is unlikely, to say the least, to be a coincidence. Combined with other factors(such as the relative low post count of Chink, the points you've brought up about him subsequently interacting very little with IG, and , this raises the suspicion factor on birdy51.

Also… Good catch on the RVS question between Chink and IG, but I am not certain what to make of it. But, if I had to wager a logical guess, I think this probably one case where the scum decides to taunt a townie.

Yet, Imperial Guardsman communicating with Nerjin doesn't bother in the slightest.

Quote from: Rolepgeek on August 27, 2013, 09:39:15 pm

Quote from: Imperial Guardsman on July 24, 2013, 06:33:20 pm

Nerjin, you are a rolecop for the mafia. Who do you inspect first?
You rolecop and find the cop and the doctor. Which one do you and your scumbuddies lynch first?
Nerjin

This. Right here, this alone lets me know you're the scum, birdy.
This was his way of trying to subtly get Nerjin's advice. He could have done so completely privately if Nerjin was scum. This alone could make you the scum by process of elimination, but when you combine this with the peculiar way you've been acting, the fact that griffinpup, who was pushing a case on you, was the one to die, and the fact that your predecessors lurked incessantly, tells me that you are the scum. You just threw IG under the bus when it was clear that people were getting suspicious of him.

Rolepgeek: You'll note that the two questions IG asked are one in the same. Is there any particular reason you are biased against me?

birdy51: You'll notice that's a lie. Chink asked IG, and IG asked Nerjin. Those are different, and while I would say they're subtly different, subtle isn't the right word. We know IG is scum, a rolecop specifically. Thus, for Nerjin, it seems likes he's trying to get advice from a more experienced player for what he should do. Chink, on the other hand, seems like he's trying to figure out what IG is planning to do, as he already knows they're scum.

The difference is in who is asking the question, and who it's being asked to; Nerjin is an IC, and while as he's said, that doesn't put him out of the possibility of being scum on it's own, the scum asking him how to perform his role well seems like him trying to get advice subtly. If they were in cahoots, Nerjin, being experienced, would almost certainly be communicating with him in a private channel of some sort or another so that IG would get his advice that way. This, plus the fact that Nerjin was one of the first to suspect, pressure, and vote IG for being scum, makes me believe he's town. By process of elimination, that leaves you. In addition to this, I've had my own suspicions about you for some time now, and the manner in which you'd responded to griffinpup, as well as the fact that he's the one who died, makes me believe it was you. If Nerjin was scum, he almost certainly would have killed me; after all, I'm the one everyone seemed to be saying seemed the most town-y, along with Nerjin himself. By making it so the two people with him were scummier than he was, he would have thrown a lot more suspicion into the air.

Quote from: Nerjin on August 28, 2013, 11:43:31 am

I want to hear Birdy's thoughts before I say anything because I noticed something that might mean a lot or very little depending on his actions.

Quote from: Rolepgeek on August 27, 2013, 09:39:15 pm

Quote from: Imperial Guardsman on July 24, 2013, 06:33:20 pm

Nerjin, you are a rolecop for the mafia. Who do you inspect first?
You rolecop and find the cop and the doctor. Which one do you and your scumbuddies lynch first?
Nerjin

This. Right here, this alone lets me know you're the scum, birdy.
This was his way of trying to subtly get Nerjin's advice.

You have no proof of this and it is WIFOM. He could just as easily have asked this question to distance the two of us. People rarely suspect scum in a BM of interacting a ton with eachother. It IS a powerful trend but not an all ending one. You need a bit more than just that to go on.

For now it looks like Rolepgeek is going to be my vote BUT as I said I want to hear from Birdy first.

And Nerjin, you say it's WIFOM, and maybe it is. but from looking at this http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=WIFOM I don't know how much that matters, or if it's true. A lot of this is WIFOM. Granted, it's not all there was to the case, it was just something that caught my eye, and seemed suspicious enough as circumstantial evidence, from what we've learned so far, to make me not suspect you. Maybe it's like the quote in Okami's signature. It's a huge devious ploy that you made with IG from the beginning to throw off suspicion. But if I went with that, that would almost certainly be WIFOM, and one that would be impossible to solve.
What reason do you have to vote me, besides disagreeing with my reasoning?

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day Four - Dwarf Fortress 0.82.06
Post by: Okami No Rei on August 28, 2013, 11:43:39 pm

8 Hours remain in the day.

Day 4 will end on Thursday, August 29 at 8:00pm CST

Rolepgeek (0) -
birdy51 (1) - Rolepgeek
Nerjin (0) -

Not Voting - birdy51, Nerjin

Shorten (0/2) -

Lurker Tracker (http://www.ocf.berkeley.edu/~azhou/projects/LT/zt.py?topic=127764&start=0&msg=4432342&numreplace=6&replaced0=TheWetSheep&replacer0=GUNINANRUNIN&replaced1=GUNINANRUNIN&replacer1=webadict&replaced2=Griffionday&replacer2=Squill&replaced3=Boy&replacer3=Chink&replaced4=Chink&replacer4=birdy51&replaced5=Powder%20Miner&replacer5=Rolepgeek&numlabel=10&player0=DaveTheGrave&label0=dead&player1=notquitethere&label1=dead&player2=Imperial%20Guardsman&label2=dead&player3=webadict&label3=dead&player4=Vector&label4=np&player5=Tiruin&label5=np&player6=Scelly9&label6=np&player7=Deathsword&label7=np&player8=zombie%20urist&label8=np&player9=mastahcheese&label9=np)

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day Four - Dwarf Fortress 0.82.06
Post by: birdy51 on August 29, 2013, 01:27:38 pm

Alright... Enough rereading and theory-crafting me.

As far as I am concerned, my rereading of the thread has only managed to increase my frustration levels. There is only so much digging a man can do before he grows absolutely tired of hearing about it. Long story short, I won't be presenting a single large case. At this point, I'm too mentally exhausted to do otherwise.

---

Rolepgeek:

You managed to completely miss the point I was trying to make, mistakes of mine or not. I did not ask you for your explanation as to your reasoning.  This is a mistake on both of our ends, so I shall be blunt with you now.

You have been extraordinarily fixated on me the entire game, and constantly making claims that I am a scummiest player here. Despite this however, you didn't lynch me when the opportunity arose  on Day 3, even though you didn't think Squill was scum. 

Now, why is that? What possible point is there to keeping me around until LYLO if you thought I was the scummier character?

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day Four - Dwarf Fortress 0.82.06
Post by: DaveTheGrave on August 29, 2013, 03:15:31 pm

I forgot to do this:

Bah!

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day Three - Missing Friend
Post by: Nerjin on August 29, 2013, 03:17:42 pm

Quote from: Rolepgeek on August 22, 2013, 09:12:07 pm

Squill/Griffionday is the scum. Him, or birdy51. I could be horribly wrong and doom us all, particularly since I really am having trouble deciphering who is scum at this point, but from what I can tell, Squill's lynch would give us the most information, particularly after the night-kill.

Though I have a bad feeling I'll be the night-kill since everyone seems to agree I'm town. :/

Alrighty... So it seems to me that you voted Squill because reasons and that's fine. You never elaborated on those reasons however.

Quote from: Rolepgeek on August 26, 2013, 11:55:47 am

birdy51: Probably should've night killed Nerjin instead; then I'd have more trouble deciding.

This seems a lot like Scum gloating just so you know. Town or not I'd advice against this sort of statement in the future.

Rolepgeek

---

I want to apologize for being a bit of a lousy IC this time around. My life got super busy and then... Well I'll try to do better in the future.

I wish I was better at the game for you guys.

I want to apologize most to Squill. I did the wrong thing as both an IC and a Player. I should have helped guide you towards a better course of action and, as a player, should have recognized the feeling of being overwhelmed.

Here's hoping this doesn't end up being the end of things.

---

Shorten

I don't care for this rule and it's not really explained why but... Here ya go.

---

Pre-post Edit: Uh... Okay Dave. Nice to see you're still around. Nice Ninja there. Hope to see you around more too.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day Four - Dwarf Fortress 0.82.06
Post by: birdy51 on August 29, 2013, 06:38:09 pm

I'll throw out my shorten as well.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day Three - Missing Friend
Post by: Rolepgeek on August 29, 2013, 08:05:20 pm

birdy51: I didn't vote you day 3 for the same reason I didn't vote you day 2; not enough other people were voting you to make a difference, I didn't want to cause a nolynch. Had it been nolynch, there would be four people left, not three, which still would have been LYLO, but even more difficult than with three people, as there are more people making 'white noise' and such. As well, suspicion for you had died down when you threw IG under the bus, and with Nerjin's comments on Squill's playstyle. They made sense, so I decided to vote him, as well as the response I'd made earlier; it gave me good information, especially with how griffinpup was the one to die, rather than me or Nerjin.

Extraordinarily fixated on you? No. Especially since suspicion for you has gone down and risen again. I didn't want to keep you until LYLO. I wanted to cause a nolynch even less. Nolynch is death in most cases.

But a moderate-sized portion of my reason for suspecting you, comes from the tone of the way you'd been bantering with griffinpup. It reminded me of IG's method of hammering down Dave. The difference being, Dave was inexperienced, and griffinpup wasn't. Dave cracked from the pressure and began panicking, griffinpup just got suspicious and annoyed. I think. The rest comes from Chink's lurkage, his interactions with IG, Nerjin's interactions with IG ruling him out, and the various points myself and others(particularly griffinpup) brought up.

Nerjin: Okay so quite a bit of what I said above there is a response to you too. :/ I like answering multiple questions with a single long-winded answer.

Anyway. I suppose it doesn't matter, since now that birdy's thrown in his shorten, he's won, and I doubt oppose shorten would work, since it would mean the LYLO could potentially never end.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day Four - Dwarf Fortress 0.82.06
Post by: Rolepgeek on August 29, 2013, 08:06:36 pm

Oh, and uhh...I forgot to ask. Nerjin, what were you referring to here?

Quote from: Nerjin on August 28, 2013, 11:43:31 am

I want to hear Birdy's thoughts before I say anything because I noticed something that might mean a lot or very little depending on his actions.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day Four - Dwarf Fortress 0.82.06
Post by: Elephant Parade on August 29, 2013, 08:44:42 pm

Posting to watch; I would ask to be on the replacement list, but I'll be busy for a while.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Day Four - Dwarf Fortress 0.82.06
Post by: Okami No Rei on August 30, 2013, 12:19:49 am

Spoiler: Out of the Frying Pan (click to show/hide)

Urist McBirdy has been miserable lately.  He slept on a rough cave floor recently. He lost a friend to tragedy recently.   He has witnessed death recently.  He was forced to eat a close friend to survive lately.  He was forced to endure the decay of a friend.  He was disgusted by a miasma recently.  He took joy in slaughter lately.

Day 4 has ended.

Rolepgeek has been lynched.

Rolepgeek was a Goblin Thief (Vanilla Town)

FINAL VOTECOUNT

Rolepgeek (2) - birdy51, Nerjin
birdy51 (1) - Rolepgeek
Nerjin (0) -

Not Voting -

Shorten (2/2) - Nerjin, birdy51

Imperial Guardsman and birdy51, Dwarven Spies, have won!

Title: Re: BM XLII - Game Over: Mafia Win!
Post by: zombie urist on August 30, 2013, 12:27:51 am

good job birdy51. I thought Nerjin was the last scum.  :-\

Title: Re: BM XLII - Game Over: Mafia Win!
Post by: Tiruin on August 30, 2013, 12:29:22 am

*high-five*

Though i disapprove of some of the..harsher remarks done, it was a long--though drawn-out-- game. Good work birdy! Good work to the town too.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Game Over: Mafia Win!
Post by: Okami No Rei on August 30, 2013, 12:35:55 am

Roles
webadict - Goblin Thief (Vanilla Town)
griffinpup - Goblin Thief (Vanilla Town)
Squill - Goblin Thief (Vanilla Town)
Rolepgeek - Goblin Thief (Vanilla Town)
DaveTheGrave - Goblin Thief (Vanilla Town)
Nerjin - Goblin Thief (Vanilla Town)
notquitethere - Goblin Sergeant (Cop)

Imperial Guardsman - Dwarven Manager (Mafia Rolecop)
birdy51 - Undercover Dwarf (Vanilla Mafioso)

Private Chats
Scum Chat (http://www.quicktopic.com/50/H/NrfEzTu4SHF4)
Dead Chat (http://www.quicktopic.com/50/H/QPDy2qNgfumP)
Spoilspec (http://www.quicktopic.com/50/H/P3DzAqR7xr5h)

Night Actions

Spoiler: N1 (click to show/hide)

notquitethere inspected Nerjin (Town)
Imperial Guardsman inspected Griffionday (No Power)

Spoiler: N2 (click to show/hide)

Nobody with powers left alive.

Spoiler: N3 (click to show/hide)

Why did you even bother clicking on this one?

Title: Re: BM XLII - Game Over: Mafia Win!
Post by: Okami No Rei on August 30, 2013, 12:41:41 am

Isn't this new BM setup is supposed to be more town-sided?

Title: Re: BM XLII - Game Over: Mafia Win!
Post by: zombie urist on August 30, 2013, 12:50:11 am

Quote from: Dariush

Scum are fucked

lol.

I don't think the setup is the biggest issue for scum winning, its more of a participation issue.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Game Over: Mafia Win!
Post by: Tiruin on August 30, 2013, 12:51:33 am

Quote from: Okami No Rei on August 30, 2013, 12:41:41 am

Isn't this new BM setup is supposed to be more town-sided?

It is.

Then the actions fell on the exact people.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Game Over: Mafia Win!
Post by: Parsely on August 30, 2013, 12:57:40 am

Mafia won? Oh my.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Game Over: Mafia Win!
Post by: Griffionday on August 30, 2013, 01:14:04 am

Quote from: zombie urist on August 30, 2013, 12:27:51 am

good job birdy51. I thought Nerjin was the last scum.  :-\

+1

Well done Birdy.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Game Over: Mafia Win!
Post by: notquitethere on August 30, 2013, 05:07:11 am

Good play anyway Rolepgeek, you legitimately spotted the scum and the point wasn't just 'WIFOM' (a highly misused term). Even when you don't win, it's satisfying to know you were right all along. Hope to see you in future games. Same goes for the rest of you new players. Welcome to the subforum!  :)

Title: Re: BM XLII - Game Over: Mafia Win!
Post by: griffinpup on August 30, 2013, 07:30:26 am

I'm confused why Nerjin shortened so willingly, without even waiting for a reply.  Ah well, gg.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Game Over: Mafia Win!
Post by: birdy51 on August 30, 2013, 07:31:51 am

Whew... Looks I like I managed it somehow. Good game Rolepgeek! You as well Griffinpup. Frankly, I'm glad that I didn't have to respond to you as it would have certainly become the death of me. You both gave me a run for my money. Also, sorry for killing you Wuba. You'll see from the Deadchat that it was a tough decision to come to, considering the omnipresent fear of Jailers. I wrote you a special message. ;.;

Speaking of which, Okami no Rei, for your information I am thoroughly disappointed and heartbroken by the lack of Jailers. I thought if I dreamed and plotted enough I would find one to kill!

Title: Re: BM XLII - Game Over: Mafia Win!
Post by: griffinpup on August 30, 2013, 07:36:08 am

I'm surprised that no one noticed that you didn't ever respond to my accusation.

I'm also sad that you night killed me.
:-\
I was so gonna win this game.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Game Over: Mafia Win!
Post by: Nerjin on August 30, 2013, 08:13:24 am

Well... This certainly made me out as a terrible IC didn't it. Even NQT seems to have picked it up.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Game Over: Mafia Win!
Post by: webadict on August 30, 2013, 09:06:58 am

I forgot I didn't get a link to Deadchat on purpose...

Also, rude, scum. Rude.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Game Over: Mafia Win!
Post by: birdy51 on August 30, 2013, 10:54:54 am

Quote from: griffinpup on August 30, 2013, 07:36:08 am

I'm surprised that no one noticed that you didn't ever respond to my accusation.

I'm also sad that you night killed me.
:-\
I was so gonna win this game.

Well... You did die. Talking to dead people is generally fishy behavior.

Quote from: webadict on August 30, 2013, 09:06:58 am

I forgot I didn't get a link to Deadchat on purpose...

Also, rude, scum. Rude.

Wait... I meant the Scumchat, not the dead chat. I had deep regrets in killing you that I tried to rationalize in some for or another.

*EDIT*

Quote from: Tiruin on August 30, 2013, 12:29:22 am

*high-five*

Though i disapprove of some of the..harsher remarks done, it was a long--though drawn-out-- game. Good work birdy! Good work to the town too.

*Returns high five*

I shouldn't keep people hanging like that. >.>

Title: Re: BM XLII - Game Over: Mafia Win!
Post by: Teneb on August 30, 2013, 10:59:30 am

Congratulations on the win for the town scum.

Also, I nearly flipped out when birdy threw that shorten without anything else to it.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Game Over: Mafia Win!
Post by: Rolepgeek on August 30, 2013, 11:06:00 am

I was right!
Gah!
I do have to ask, Nerjin, why did you out in that shorten?

Title: Re: BM XLII - Game Over: Mafia Win!
Post by: Nerjin on August 30, 2013, 11:12:26 am

What do you mean?

Title: Re: BM XLII - Game Over: Mafia Win!
Post by: Rolepgeek on August 30, 2013, 11:26:41 am

I mean, what was the shorten for? They weren't necessary. It was just one way the game could end.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Game Over: Mafia Win!
Post by: Okami No Rei on August 30, 2013, 11:48:33 am

Quote from: Deathsword on August 30, 2013, 10:59:30 am

Also, I nearly flipped out when birdy threw that shorten without anything else to it.

Why? That shorten ended the game.  I'd have taken the opportunity to taunt everyone if it'd been me.

Quote from: Rolepgeek on August 30, 2013, 11:26:41 am

I mean, what was the shorten for? They weren't necessary. It was just one way the game could end.

I agree, I was kind of confused by the shorten as well.  Actually using the shorten to end the day is just asking for scum to quickhammer.  The intent behind the new rule was to give a minimum 24-hour period for reactions to new votes.  The shorten should only be used as a tool to prevent gaming the system, otherwise let the 24-hour timer run out.  No reason to rush the lynch as town.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Game Over: Mafia Win!
Post by: Nerjin on August 30, 2013, 11:52:21 am

Rereading it... I don't see why I did it.

For some reason I thought that the game could only end Via shortens.

*Fail fail fail fail fail fail fail*

Title: Re: BM XLII - Game Over: Mafia Win!
Post by: Okami No Rei on August 30, 2013, 12:26:09 pm

As the rule was originally discussed at the start of the thread, yes, the day could only end via shortens.  The 24-hour timer is my own addition my own modification of Dariush's proposal, specifically to provide Town a safe means to prevent scum from shorten-hammering.  It's been in the OP since the beginning, and I did point it out at the start of Day Four.

Seems I wasn't sufficiently clear on the intent of the rule.  My apologies.

EDIT:  Misremembered the conversation.  Saw I stole the idea from Dariush on rereading.  Corrected attribution.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Game Over: Mafia Win!
Post by: Rolepgeek on August 30, 2013, 12:33:46 pm

Had a good time. Pleased to see that 2 of my three suspicions were correct. It was clever for Birdy to throw IG under the bus, though; if he hadn't, I would have pressed a lot more on day three, Squill at least probably wouldn't be lynched.

When will the next BM be starting, you think?

Title: Re: BM XLII - Game Over: Mafia Win!
Post by: Okami No Rei on August 30, 2013, 12:35:53 pm

Zombie Urist said he'd start sign-ups sometime today, over in the newbie thread.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Game Over: Mafia Win!
Post by: griffinpup on August 30, 2013, 03:34:51 pm

Vanilla mafia is really the only type of mafia I like.
Am I allowed to play in the next bm?  Either as a beginner or as an IC?

Title: Re: BM XLII - Game Over: Mafia Win!
Post by: Imperial Guardsman on August 30, 2013, 03:43:22 pm

Birdy, what the FUCK?!
You BUSSED ME?

Title: Re: BM XLII - Game Over: Mafia Win!
Post by: Nerjin on August 30, 2013, 03:53:07 pm

Quote from: griffinpup on August 30, 2013, 03:34:51 pm

Vanilla mafia is really the only type of mafia I like.
Am I allowed to play in the next bm?  Either as a beginner or as an IC?

I believe so. I went into more BM's than I should have. Granted if you'd like I wouldn't be adverse to setting up a vanilla mafia game using this set up with maybe something else thrown in so that the new players can still have the spot. Maybe an intermediate mafia? Hm...

Title: Re: BM XLII - Game Over: Mafia Win!
Post by: griffinpup on August 30, 2013, 03:54:14 pm

DO IT NERJIN!

I'd appreciate it, at least.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Game Over: Mafia Win!
Post by: Nerjin on August 30, 2013, 04:00:23 pm

I might. I'd have to run it by the group. I'm thinking a Disney Villians Mafia would be pretty fun to go with due to "Hellfire" being repeated on my CPU for the past day or two.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Game Over: Mafia Win!
Post by: Rolepgeek on August 30, 2013, 04:10:23 pm

Quote from: Imperial Guardsman on August 30, 2013, 03:43:22 pm

Birdy, what the FUCK?!
You BUSSED ME?

You still won.
Doesn't matter if you died or not, you still won.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Game Over: Mafia Win!
Post by: lordnincompoop on August 30, 2013, 04:19:14 pm

Quote from: Imperial Guardsman on August 30, 2013, 03:43:22 pm

Birdy, what the FUCK?!
You BUSSED ME?

And you act like you're so shocked. Bussing is perfectly normal play - especially when your partner ends up being a lynch target.

Don't get lynched next time.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Game Over: Mafia Win!
Post by: Nerjin on August 30, 2013, 04:23:20 pm

Furthermore the game's over. There shouldn't be hard feelings over this sort've thing. Sure it sucks when it happens but sometimes it has to happen for the team.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Game Over: Mafia Win!
Post by: birdy51 on August 30, 2013, 04:41:38 pm

Quote from: Imperial Guardsman on August 30, 2013, 03:43:22 pm

Birdy, what the FUCK?!
You BUSSED ME?

We did it scumbuddy! Victory for the Dwarves! :D

Title: Re: BM XLII - Game Over: Mafia Win!
Post by: Nerjin on August 30, 2013, 04:49:23 pm

He says to a sockless corpse as he walks to collect his reward from the overseer two socks heavier.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Game Over: Mafia Win!
Post by: birdy51 on August 30, 2013, 04:54:53 pm

Quote from: Nerjin on August 30, 2013, 04:49:23 pm

He says to a sockless corpse as he walks to collect his reward from the overseer two socks heavier.

>.>

<.<

...

How did you know?

Title: Re: BM XLII - Game Over: Mafia Win!
Post by: Nerjin on August 30, 2013, 04:58:26 pm

I always know. I am the nebulous attraction betwixt atoms. I am everywhere and nowhere. Everything and nothing. All knowing and oblivious. I am a disciple of Armok and a heretic the likes of which the world has never seen. I am the left and right sock of the dead IG. Or I just guessed. Whichever you like more.

Title: Re: BM XLII - Game Over: Mafia Win!
Post by: webadict on August 30, 2013, 05:42:47 pm

Quote from: Imperial Guardsman on August 30, 2013, 03:43:22 pm

Birdy, what the FUCK?!
You BUSSED ME?

Psh, that's nothing.

I've bussed someone that was still playing.

And he was the other IC!