Post by: Vector on July 08, 2013, 09:53:16 pm
The Lonely Prince
Once upon a time, a lonely prince who had thought he had everything, satin and samite and rubies and pearls, found that he longed for something that exceeded their value. That is to say--a paramour, whose pureness of heart and clarity of mind would be as a lily in the midsts of the evil he had known. So he drew to him thirteen women whose beauty was apparent in their every gesture; so he drew to him these thirteen, in whom he saw virtue and honor.
Once upon a time, a lonely prince thought himself somewhat more grand than he was and mistook his distaste for evil as an understanding of it. He drew to him thirteen beauties differently made, to choose from them and make one his wife. But among them the clever ones deduced that he had drawn in some interlopers, who arrived not for love but for fame and fortune. And among them the kind ones convinced the thirteen that something had to be done, for the sake of the prince; and among them the bold ones decided that, one by one, they would root out the evil from this bundle of thirteen roses, and send those rivals away.
Unfortunately the evildoers within this fine bouquet had both sharp hairpins aplenty and a taste for desperation, so it must be said that some of the thirteen met bloody ends.
Once upon a time a month and a day later, a prince walked into a bar...
This game is a mild bastard mod. That is to say, I have already lied to you once or twice. However, I give to you my promises. Not only will the rules be as static as possible, but any lies I tell will be truths from the perspective of our storytelling prince. Indeed, they will be solely in the flavor; none of them will be whoppers, only minor details. I also promise you that there will be hidden mechanics. Discovering them will be in your best interest, but the game can be finished successfully for all concerned without them.
Because of the complexity of this game and my relative newness as a mod I will not accept any raw beginners. Those who have finished a BM and two other games will be automatically accepted; others may or may not be accepted upon review.
Please also note that in this game there is a 3-strike enforced politeness rule in place. That is to say, don't ruin the game for others through cursing and vitriol. On the first strike I will give a warning. On the second, I will take away your vote for the day. On the third, you will be modkilled. You are proto-princesses, and if you prove yourself unsuitable, the prince will ask you to leave. I am not kidding about this.
I am not going to be a hardass, but Great Temple conditions will not be happening again.
Game Rules (mostly thanks to LNCP--there are some changes, so read it):
- It will be trusted, on behalf of both the players and the mod, that you will play according to the restrictions (if any) given and that you will play both respectfully and to fulfill your win condition to the best of your abilities.
- All votes must be in red and bold for legibility. Unvoting before voting again is not required, but appreciated. You may vote for No Lynch. You cannot conditional vote. In case of a tie, no one will be lynched. The game has soft hammers; if at any point a player has 51% of all available votes, that player will be lynched and the day will end.
- Days and Nights both span 72 hours. Neither time span includes weekends. Nights may end earlier if all actions are in before the deadline. Due to my work hours and the flavor-heavy nature of this game, most days will end at 7PM Pacific (5 AM GMT) but will be processed to completion a couple of hours later.
- Never edit your posts for any reason, including typos.
- Do not PM other players unless explicitly allowed. Players with private chat access will be given a topic on QuickTopic where they may post freely.
- Never quote any PM from the mod or any communication with them unless explicitly allowed. You may give a general summary (for example, a roleclaim), but do not quote directly. Rulebreakers can and will be modkilled with prejudice.
- Any requests to the moderator not in bold will be ignored.
- Dead players may post one “bah post” to comment on their death, but it may not contain any relevant game information. After that, please do not post.
- You may ask for an extension or shorten by putting the respective word in bold. Extensions require 33% of players to agree minus any players opposing, and requires at least three players. Extends are for 48 hours including weekends, and there may only be a maximum of four Extends.
- Shortens require at least 51% of players to agree, and will end the day immediately, even if I cannot process them right away.
- Please make an effort to post at least once daily. If you do not post content (that is, nothing along the lines of “placeholder post”, "this is a post" or "I will post later") for 48 hours, you will be given a warning. If I don’t hear from you within 24 more hours, you will be replaced or modkilled. Your third warning will be your last. Should you not post content for a further 24 hours from the third warning, you will be modkilled. If you manage to be inactive for more than 48 hours after this, you will be modkilled without warning. See also rule 12. This includes weekends.
- If you do not post content for an entire day (72 hours minimum) you will be modkilled at the end of the day. The Day is quite long enough; there are no excuses for flaking.
- Short-term absences need to be stated before you become absent, or I will not be able to take them into account. If you’ll be gone for a longer time, you can either PM me about it and I’ll try to accomodate, or request a replacement as below.
- If you can no longer post, you may Request Replacement. If there is anyone in the replacement queue that person will replace you. If not, you will remain in the game until this happens even if you won't be prodded - please endeavour to post regardless.
- Never underestimate your importance, and always play to win!
Game Action Order:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
The Proto-Princesses
Tiruin the Duck - Made helpmeet and protector of the castle inhabitants in the Aftermath
Lenglon the Lily - Made a member of the Queen's Guard in the Aftermath
Toaster the Rose - Made a member of the Queen's Guard in the Aftermath
Leafsnail, who wears Black Shoes - Crowned Queen of Denmark in the Aftermath
Mod Flavor Links
The Thirteen Brides (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4387210#msg4387210)
Sir Shepard (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4477671#msg4477671)
A Prince walks into a bar. . . (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4484529#msg4484529)
Important details (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4489890#msg4489890)
Treasurehouse (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4499708#msg4499708)
Horatio and the Prince (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4513913#msg4513913)
The Servant and the Served (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4524604#msg4524604)
The Prodigal Brother (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4537551#msg4537551)
Sacrifices (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4547900#msg4547900)
Age Before Beauty (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4562324#msg4562324)
A Change of Color (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4574142#msg4574142)
Wounds (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4578097#msg4578097)
Order (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4579249#msg4579249)
Words, words, words (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4580305#msg4580305)
Interrogating the Prince (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4580874#msg4580874)
"But that I have bad dreams. . ." (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4582715#msg4582715)
Blood ties (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4585515#msg4585515)
Smells (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4589796#msg4589796)
Red herring (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4596600#msg4596600)
Where the Gods Walk (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4596977#msg4596977)
Et in Arcadia Ego (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4620246#msg4620246)
"Other fish in the sea" (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4632087#msg4632087)
"I was sad I had no shoes, until. . ." (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4646614#msg4646614)
Death and the Virgin (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4651320#msg4651320)
Song of the Two Young Wolves (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4657064#msg4657064)
The Things They Carried (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4669396#msg4669396)
Horatio and Sigfred (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4671767#msg4671767)
Etude for Bass and Lyric Baritone (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4674400#msg4674400)
Träume (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4681874#msg4681874)
The Heartfelt Duckling (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4687959#msg4687959)
He Who Shall Serve (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4688456#msg4688456)
Character PMs
Part the First (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4688469#msg4688469)
Part the Second (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4688471#msg4688471)
Part the Third (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4688472#msg4688472)
Ending/plot details (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4695419#msg4695419)
Mechanics and setting details (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4695804#msg4695804)
Post by: Okami No Rei on July 08, 2013, 10:06:40 pm
Post by: Leafsnail on July 08, 2013, 10:08:27 pm
Post by: Tiruin on July 08, 2013, 10:09:21 pm
For truth, and for the Prince!
...I wonder how you write, Vector :)
In my heart I am always a princess.I knew it. :I
Post by: Jim Groovester on July 08, 2013, 10:34:58 pm
I'm much too grumpy to be a pretty princess anyway
Post by: Tiruin on July 08, 2013, 10:48:30 pm
We all have our days ;P
Post by: Jim Groovester on July 08, 2013, 10:51:49 pm
Post by: Vector on July 08, 2013, 11:01:46 pm
...I wonder how you write, Vector :)
Get myself sleep-deprived, hopped up on sugar and/or caffeine, and bored. Then I drift in and out of sleep and figure out what I'm going to write.
I'm not even kidding. It's how I take care of most difficult problems.
Post by: Solifuge on July 08, 2013, 11:06:56 pm
Post by: Vector on July 08, 2013, 11:11:15 pm
For anyone wondering, the reason why I picked August 5th as the earliest start date is because
a. My job ends July 31st
b. 8 + 5 = 13 and we are in 2013. With 13 players :I
So, it really isn't a hard start date at all; my next Key Date is Jan. 2014, when I will be going back to graduate school. I'd be super-happy if Soli and Groovestar were able to play, even if we had to put this on hold for another week or two.
Post by: Lenglon on July 08, 2013, 11:34:11 pm
Post by: Vector on July 08, 2013, 11:37:11 pm
. . . I need to change the OP if you're being barred. Ahh, it should be "anyone with a BM and two other games can join, and others on review." I'll sign you in.
Post by: Tiruin on July 08, 2013, 11:38:09 pm
Replacement In - Looks awesome, but I'm not qualified enough.I really believe you are qualified. :)
Post by: griffinpup on July 08, 2013, 11:44:20 pm
in
Post by: zombie urist on July 08, 2013, 11:46:38 pm
Post by: RangerCado on July 08, 2013, 11:47:25 pm
Post by: Vector on July 08, 2013, 11:48:20 pm
I'll be around in August so in if you'll have me.
Don't fucking claim on the drop of a hat this time.
Oops, teehee *flutters fan*
Post by: RangerCado on July 08, 2013, 11:48:54 pm
Yeah yeah, i know. :-XI'll be around in August so in if you'll have me.
Don't fucking claim this time.
Oops, teehee *flutters fan*
Post by: Tiruin on July 09, 2013, 12:01:29 am
:PYeah yeah, i know. :-XI'll be around in August so in if you'll have me.
Don't fucking claim this time.
Oops, teehee *flutters fan*
Vector has been warned.
The Proto-PrincessesTake that, Lenglon! :I
Okami no Rei
Leafsnail
Tiruin
Lenglon
Griffinpup
RangerCado
Post by: Lenglon on July 09, 2013, 01:06:33 am
"Hehehehehehe":PYeah yeah, i know. :-XI'll be around in August so in if you'll have me.
Don't fucking claim this time.
Oops, teehee *flutters fan*
Vector has been warned.The Proto-PrincessesTake that, Lenglon! :I
Okami no Rei
Leafsnail
Tiruin
Lenglon
Griffinpup
RangerCado
Post by: Griffionday on July 09, 2013, 01:54:58 am
Post by: lordnincompoop on July 09, 2013, 03:41:11 am
Oh, and you may want to edit your rules list a little further. 9PM GMT, by my reckoning, is around 3PM to 12PM in the States - or maybe that works for you.
Post by: Vector on July 09, 2013, 07:15:07 am
Some of the extension rules are also going to change, so I'll take care of that a bit later.
Post by: notquitethere on July 12, 2013, 02:59:05 pm
Post by: Vector on July 12, 2013, 03:59:18 pm
Post by: notquitethere on July 12, 2013, 06:03:39 pm
Post by: Jim Groovester on July 15, 2013, 07:15:23 pm
I am the prettiest princess.
Post by: Solifuge on July 15, 2013, 07:51:37 pm
I failed the last princess I was serving. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=125058.msg4339226;topicseen#msg4339226) Perhaps being the princess will improve my chances.
Post by: Vector on July 15, 2013, 08:49:18 pm
Post by: RangerCado on July 15, 2013, 10:27:15 pm
Post by: Vector on July 15, 2013, 10:32:50 pm
Tee-hee~
Post by: RangerCado on July 15, 2013, 10:38:46 pm
Post by: Tiruin on July 15, 2013, 10:49:27 pm
Do you bake those cakes Vector? Or do you just find the pictures? Because they look really good.All her pictures are food. Exquisitely amazing food.
On that note, I'm really wondering what flavor we're having in this game..
Post by: RangerCado on July 15, 2013, 10:54:53 pm
...I call the shy princess, I've been getting better at that persona.
Post by: Vector on July 17, 2013, 10:57:35 pm
If there's anyone in particular you'd like to see in this game, go pester them.
Post by: Ottofar on July 18, 2013, 09:15:08 am
Post by: Toaster on July 18, 2013, 09:10:37 pm
Post by: webadict on July 18, 2013, 09:56:30 pm
Post by: Vector on July 18, 2013, 10:02:52 pm
:D :D :D
Sweet.
Post by: Solifuge on July 18, 2013, 11:19:13 pm
It'll be like a mafia family reunion!
Post by: Vector on July 18, 2013, 11:21:56 pm
Next time, though... next time...
Post by: Griffionday on July 19, 2013, 02:25:37 am
I'll be reading this though.
Post by: webadict on July 19, 2013, 06:21:57 am
SERIOUSLY?!Yeah... I figure the worst I could do would be to ask for a replacement...
:D :D :D
Sweet.
Post by: Vector on July 19, 2013, 07:12:08 pm
Solifuge can have my place, I've not been having nearly the time I used to and doubt that I'll be an acceptable player.
I'll be reading this though.
There's space for you... I was just explaining to him why I wouldn't be PMing Dakarian. Would you like me to take you off the rolls?
Post by: Griffionday on July 20, 2013, 02:34:53 am
Actually, sorry, but I can't do it... Hopefully I'll have more time soon, but I just don't right now.
Post by: Leafsnail on August 02, 2013, 01:28:00 pm
Post by: notquitethere on August 05, 2013, 03:44:37 am
Post by: Vector on August 05, 2013, 03:49:55 am
Post by: notquitethere on August 05, 2013, 03:52:45 am
Post by: webadict on August 05, 2013, 08:14:40 am
Post by: griffinpup on August 07, 2013, 09:22:11 pm
Post by: Vector on August 07, 2013, 10:45:29 pm
I also have to finish Mass Effect 3 before I start my new job, so... I'm expecting to put some serious work into this tomorrow, but tonight is searching-for-housing-and-writing-serious-thank-yous-and-fragging-aliens night.
Post by: webadict on August 08, 2013, 09:44:35 pm
Post by: Tiruin on August 08, 2013, 11:34:15 pm
She pouts. "Though it is getting pretty late. Give it another hour, Webadict!"
Post by: Vector on August 08, 2013, 11:52:48 pm
"Peace," he says, "for I listen to the songs of this charming troubadour, who tells the the tale of the valiant Sir Shepard and his travails throughout his country; and the time has not yet come for your stories to be told."
Vague mutterings travel through the thirteen. Webadict sucks furiously on a candied violet and looks for more. Tiruin flutters her fan rather pointedly. But... he seems to be in a good mood, so they will forget for a moment that Shepard had been a goodwife like themselves, and merely resolve to acculturate him later. Once they are married and the two of them can live happily ever after, free from every distraction or care.
Post by: RangerCado on August 09, 2013, 09:17:14 am
Post by: Toaster on August 09, 2013, 12:05:44 pm
Post by: webadict on August 09, 2013, 12:21:59 pm
Post by: Okami No Rei on August 09, 2013, 12:30:40 pm
Post by: Jim Groovester on August 09, 2013, 03:13:47 pm
But instead of living her dream, she was here, in some fabulous castle or mansion or something, competing with a bunch of other women over some stupid guy.
It was heartbreaking.
Post by: Toaster on August 09, 2013, 07:37:36 pm
Post by: birdy51 on August 09, 2013, 07:40:40 pm
He shifted and settled in for the long haul. It was a good day to be a pigeon.
Post by: Vector on August 09, 2013, 07:42:36 pm
Post by: birdy51 on August 09, 2013, 07:57:32 pm
Hatoful Boyfriend may now become one of the most fantastic things I have discovered on the internet. :O
Post by: Tiruin on August 09, 2013, 07:58:50 pm
. . . Maybe I should run The Lonely Prince: Hatoful Edition next.((Oh gods I loved that game XD
If there will be pics, then do it. :P))
"I don't know if I can wait any longer, Tiruin! There's just so much I want to show the Prince." She exhales loudly. "Gah! I need something to busy myself with!" She marches off to look at the various art displays.'So much indeed to show the Prince. Why, if it was me I would-...'
A smile crept upon Tiruin's face as her fantasies too hold of her thoughts. The Prince had all one could ask for--possessions, protection, and even good looks--though the only thing which attracted her was a different thing.
His personality.
Indeed, Webadict was right. There was so much to show to this splendid man. One of a caring heart and of sincere devotion that his reputation was known throughout the lands and kingdoms.
She pulled up a chair and fanned herself, intrigued by his many tastes decorating the area.
"I wonder how he sees us all. Gathered here, awaiting his presence."
The more you knew...
Post by: webadict on August 09, 2013, 08:30:52 pm
. . . Maybe I should run The Lonely Prince: Hatoful Edition next.((Let me give you a story of the last minute.
*typing typing typing Enter*
*Pause.*
"What the..."
*Click*
"..."
*facepalm*
"Why?!?"))
Webadict fiddles with her fan. "Stupid... dumb... fan." She takes the fan and snaps it in half before realizing the others might be watching. She quickly looks behind her, but it doesn't appear anyone has seen her break her fan.
She had taken her attention away from a pot... or an urn or something. She was really only sure that it wasn't helping her keep her mind off the wait. Now she kind of wishes she still had her fan to keep her hands busy.
Then a thought creeps into her mind, and she froze because she knew it was true.
'They're watching you, dear.' She rolls her focus along the wall, looking for anything. Her eyes briefly cross a mirror and... wait, was that a bird? She quickly turns towards the rafters, but the bird wasn't where she had seen it. When she looks back at the reflection, the bird is gone. She shivers a bit, goosebumps growing on her arms.
She quickly rejoins the others. She wouldn't want to give off a bad impression to the Prince.
Post by: Jim Groovester on August 09, 2013, 09:16:18 pm
Jim, you'll always be my pretty princess.
<3
Post by: Vector on August 10, 2013, 07:55:49 pm
Perhaps he doesn't want to disappoint anyone. Perhaps he is simply too lazy or sad to look for another thirteen; lonely enough to keep around the knife that would kill him.
But what you know of him is that he is kind, if naive; both cheerful and melancholy by turns, if sweetly so; and easily given to distant transports of imagination. These dreams fling him across time and space, and he is inattentive in those moments, save to those who would deepen the illusion.
All of you peeked into his bedchambers once when he was away (red drapes, white sheets), and saw that his wall was covered with a magnificent tapestry depicting a man feeding some creatures, which were half-bird, half-woman; his bedside table was bedecked with spring flowers; and he was in the possession of some printed books. Some of you recognize The Bible and Euclid's Elements... and a copy of Le Chasteau de Labour. Before long, the word spreads, though opinion is divided on whether he is a lover of humor or of allegorical poetry.
The man himself dresses in black, as is proper, but his mien is comely and he smiles often enough, at no one in particular.
[Game to start tonight, once I finish figuring out just how insane it's going to be; expect it up in a couple hours]
Post by: Vector on August 11, 2013, 04:21:44 am
New life!
His supplies are running low and the customers know it, so even though he has made no small amount of coin telling "The Legend of the Bleeding Nine" to those who love gawking at bloody misfortune--the tale required no embellishment to please their appetites, even as its telling turned his (but a living is a living, a living is. . .)--even so, he will be glad when the crops, and his pack of drunken ruffians, begin to roll back in. Hops, barley, oats. It will be a while yet, but Aureliusz Vektor has learned to look ahead.
A man knocks on the tavern door. After a moment, he opens it, and steps over the threshold. His clothes are plain black. Ash whitens his hair.
"Have you any mead, bartender?" His mien is comely, but furtive.
"None," says Vektor. He is lying, of course, but he has learned to see sorrow drifting in. It drifts in on wings of ash and nervous tongues. It drifts in on men coming to drink alone late at night, shamefaced, hands trembling, no work to take their minds despite the new season.
"No matter," says the man, sitting at the bar. Vektor will have to wipe it clean again after he is gone. He is not sure if he should place his bet on tears or vomit, tonight. The man licks his lips. "I would tell you a tale."
"Have you no aunts or whores or sisters?"
"Give me some of the vodka you have there and I shall tell you whence I have none."
This Vektor likes a little better. He shoes the fat cat, Mischka from her perch on the cask and draws out the beginning of the last. The stranger watches him with red-rimmed eyes, as though he has never seen a man pour a drink. He examines the way the lamplight makes the trembling liquid surface glow buttery gold. Then Vektor hands it over.
The stranger turns the glass in his hands, swirling the liquid, then takes a sniff. He winces and puts the glass down.
"I never said it was good," says Vektor.
"I imagine most of your clientele don't care," the man remarks. "I--I don't either."
"Spit it out or drink it up."
"I am a prince," says the Prince. Vektor snorts. "And my father died. Assassination. And then my elder brother, the Crown Prince, went on a voyage as my uncle sat on the throne, which killed him, and my younger brother left me--it was only myself and the men and women of the castle, and if I did not assume power soon I feared for my life and property. There would be nothing left of my father's holdings, the land would fragment. . . it was both my obligation and pleasure.
So I called young beauties from across the land to my castle and of their number chose thirteen, the most beautiful, the most clever, the kindest, the--"
"Every woman is all of those things to the man who loves her," Vektor interrupts. This usually shuts up the drunks who attempt this tack, and moves them from telling tall tales to sobbing, which is a easier sorry state to push out the door.
"They were fairest throughout the land!" says the Prince, banging his fist on the bar. "The very most perfect! And you would not believe what they did, no. They filed in, some amongst them poor serfs' daughters but the ladies in waiting provided them with flowers and fans and hair ribbons, everything a girl would want to be pretty. They had soft eyes and full mouths and, oh, you should have seen them dance, and heard them sing. Would that you had been there."
"Well then--what happened?"
"They tried to kill each other, of course," says the Prince. "In this sordid world, how could you expect anything better? She comes stealing in under veils and tresses, Mother Death, and turns cream sour, and burns roses to ash."
Vektor steals a sip of the Prince's vodka before setting it firmly in the young man's pale hand.
"Tell on," he says.
You have until Noon on Wednesday (-8 GMT) to decide what happened on the First Day. Begin. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3FmBkAXq4Sw)
Man, I really hope this works out okay.
Post by: Vector on August 11, 2013, 04:31:17 am
I'll get up early tomorrow morning to make sure they get out there. Sorry about that Tiruin, Jim Groovester, and Griffionday.
Post by: Tiruin on August 11, 2013, 04:33:02 am
In this meantime, I love that flavor.
...Darn am I giddy.
Post by: webadict on August 11, 2013, 06:21:01 am
Mod note: three more roles need to be sent out and I can't stay up any longer to wait for them to clear the 1-hour flood limit.((That limit will get you every time.
I'll get up early tomorrow morning to make sure they get out there. Sorry about that Tiruin, Jim Groovester, and Griffionday.
And I shall think no more on it.))
Things had fallen to small chat since the girls' arrivals. Webadict might have found patience any other day, but today there was a fair Prince to be married. She would show to him... No. She would simply let the Prince decide for himself whom he found fairest and most delightful. She was simply happy to be among the fairest.
Webadict found herself seated next to a young woman by the name of Toaster. She had remained quiet for some time, and so Webadict spoke to her, if only to get Toaster talking and alleviate her own failure of patience.
"I am quite fond of your hair. Am I to assume that lavender perfume belongs to you, or am I to be mistaken? Because I find it to be wonderful."
Post by: RangerCado on August 11, 2013, 08:50:50 am
If this prince could help those needing it aid in the villages and farms, then she'd do all she could to help make him hers fairly, for fighting about it would do little good.
She turned to look at all those around again, taking in the sight. This would take many days, may even a week. But in the end, whoever was chosen will have been picked by the gods and goddesses of old.
Post by: Vector on August 11, 2013, 10:51:35 am
Post by: Solifuge on August 11, 2013, 01:50:35 pm
Lady Solifuge leaned against a wall, the dagged sleeves of her frock folded akimbo. She looked out idly at the goings-on in the chamber, as Sir Shepherd's tale at last came to a close. The Prince did seem to like fanciful stories, but she supposed this one wasn't all bad; preserving the realms against the Reaper Tribes, at a tragic but necessary cost. For a moment, she wondered how else the tale may have turned out, had events gone differently. Had she been in Shepherd's shoes, she would surely have done things differently.
Her attentions returned to the chamber. Save for a few quiet conversations, things had fallen silent. Lady Solifuge had expected to hear a proclamation by the Prince, perhaps a formal welcome ceremony or some other kind of event. Instead, perhaps he just meant for them to... mingle? Mingling wasn't her strongest skill, but what must be done must be done.
Though, perhaps with a little conversation, she might root out one of the less... desirable ladies who had worked their way into the Prince's good graces. Perhaps then, she might do something about them.
...
Lady Lenglon, correct? How are you finding the party so far? I recall you voicing some concerns about feeling out of place here. Are you anxious about being among ladies with more experience in such settings than you?
Oh... and if we pretended you had some less-than-honest intention regarding the Prince, are there any here whom you would choose as your co-conspirators?
Post by: webadict on August 11, 2013, 04:37:03 pm
"Well, now I feel simply uncomely, Lady Solifuge! Who would marry us old maids?
Lady Lenglon, correct? How are you finding the party so far? I recall you voicing some concerns about feeling out of place here. Are you anxious about being among ladies with more experience in such settings than you?
Post by: Lenglon on August 11, 2013, 05:24:45 pm
Solifuge: yes, I am nervous.
Solifuge: I would pick Tiruin, Webaddict, and Jim Groovester.
Solifuge: If you had an inspect, would you inspect someone scummy, someone townie, or someone you don't have a read on?
Ranger: Which would you prefer, a vig-kill or a protect?
Post by: Jim Groovester on August 11, 2013, 05:41:55 pm
Princess Solifuge, how petty is your petticoat?
Princess Toasterella, is your dowry delightful or dour?
Princess Leafsnail, how relevant will flavor be to this game? Also, what's the significance of the underlined words in Vector's pre-day start post?
Princess WUBADUB, who's easiest to read?
Princess notquitethere, what mafia lessons have you learned over the course of the games you've played?
Princess griffinpup, how likely are you to freak out under pressure?
Post by: webadict on August 11, 2013, 05:52:35 pm
Princess WUBADUB, who's easiest to read?Depends on what you mean by easiest. I can answer who's easiest for me to read, and that's Toaster. That doesn't necessarily make him the easiest to read, though, and I have no answer for that.
Also, why so cold?
Post by: Jim Groovester on August 11, 2013, 06:03:59 pm
Also, why so cold?
Because it's funner than being a warm, friendly princess. For me, anyway.
Post by: Toaster on August 11, 2013, 06:36:49 pm
"I am quite fond of your hair. Am I to assume that lavender perfume belongs to you, or am I to be mistaken? Because I find it to be wonderful."
Princess Toaster blushes, her red cheeks matching the shade of her dress. "Why thank you, and yes, I love the scent of lavender- of any flower, really. Do-do you like flowers?"
Jimberly:
Princess Toasterella, is your dowry delightful or dour?
Most delightful, milady.
Solifuge: Can we expect your RP to course throughout a whole day then die off by day two?
Web: What have you learned in your Mafia play break?
Griffionday: Does playing with your name buddy confuse you?
Post by: Leafsnail on August 11, 2013, 06:50:32 pm
RangerCado: You're a miller (that is, you're a townie who inspects as mafia). Do you claim day one, and why? Would you consider making such a day one claim as mafia?
Princess Leafsnail, how relevant will flavor be to this game?Mildly. The OP promises hidden mechanics, and it would be good to find those. On the other hand this game is clearly mafia first and a puzzle second, so I'd suggest only bringing up the flavour if you've discovered some kind of interesting contradiction rather than allowing the whole day to be spent in baseless speculation.
Also, what's the significance of the underlined words in Vector's pre-day start post?I think it's a Homestuck reference, maybe.
Post by: webadict on August 11, 2013, 07:16:36 pm
What makes Toaster so easy to read for you?He's been in a lot of my games and has been scum a fair amount in them.
Webadict brightens immediately. "Oh, most certainly! What lady would find the sight or scent of flowers anything but delightful? Though, I must admit, I am rather attached to my peach perfume. It reminds me ever so much of home. Not that I don't find this place lovely, mind you, but there's just something about home that a girl cannot forget. Men perhaps but they are a different sort." Webadict giggles at the end."I am quite fond of your hair. Am I to assume that lavender perfume belongs to you, or am I to be mistaken? Because I find it to be wonderful."
Princess Toaster blushes, her red cheeks matching the shade of her dress. "Why thank you, and yes, I love the scent of lavender- of any flower, really. Do-do you like flowers?"
Web: What have you learned in your Mafia play break?
I've learned to manage my time better. Leaving was good. I was occupying far too much time here. Now, I am steadily trying to make myself a better person. Maybe. At the very least, I'm not going as crazy anymore. You know, that sort of thing. Honestly, nothing that'll help me here, other than maintaining a sane attitude, but that's a pretty important thing. If I'm starting to go crazy, then maybe I'm not ready yet. But, so far, I haven't devolved into madness yet.
Hahaha... PTSD, you so crazy...
It's an anagram, clearly.Also, what's the significance of the underlined words in Vector's pre-day start post?I think it's a Homestuck reference, maybe.
Epsilon eructates earthly oracle aloe mull dough beamer
It makes perfect sense!
Post by: Solifuge on August 11, 2013, 08:58:44 pm
Solifuge: If you had an inspect, would you inspect someone scummy, someone townie, or someone you don't have a read on?Actually, I wouldn't do any of those, and would instead spend my efforts getting to know the people I perceived as the most potentially dangerous; the individuals with reputations for the most experience and skill. That would either let me know that their observations were to be trusted, or would let me stop them before their plans went into motion.
Given your options, though, I would investigate someone I knew nothing about. I might act differently in a different situation, but if I already have reason to suspect someone of wrongdoing, I think it better to use my efforts to root out a new lead, in case the first turns out to be false. Remember, observations and hard evidence can both be valuable weapons in such a situation. When there are many enemies to fight, a wise tactician doesn't commit all of their forces against just one of them.
Ehem. Hypothetically speaking, of course. *Smiles shyly, flutters fan*
Princess Solifuge, how petty is your petticoat?Perhaps I'm under-dressed for the occasion, but I didn't think to wear one. At least not with a simple garment like this. It's nowhere near as grand as some I've seen here. Er, yours included, of course, Lady Groovester.
what's the significance of the underlined words in Vector's pre-day start post?Oh, that's just how the titles of the Prince's books appear. Euclid's Elements is a popular foundational math text. Le Chateau de Labour translates as "The Mansion/Castle of Labor", which I'm afraid I'm unfamiliar with. I suppose there could be some hidden meaning to either of the titles, but that seems to be a bit of a reach. Who can know? As for the rest of his collection... the Prince's taste spans from comedy to more symbolic and artistic stories. I think it just shows us what sorts of things to expect during our time here.
Solifuge: Can we expect your RP to course throughout a whole day then die off by day two?I'm afraid I don't know what you mean. :3
Post by: Lenglon on August 11, 2013, 10:33:58 pm
Lenglon goes and gets a glass of water for Solifuge, and offers it to her.
Solifuge: you dropped your RP almost completely when you answered that. why?
Solifuge: you had no follow-up to the questions you asked me, why? what did you learn from them?
Post by: RangerCado on August 11, 2013, 11:53:40 pm
Lenglon: I would prefer a protect over a vig-kill due to how terrible my luck is, and the guilt that would seep into my posts if I used it and killed a townie. How likely do you think a cult is in this game and why?
Leafsnail: Everytime I claim early, I get lynched. So no, I will not claim day 1 no matter my role or alignment because I will get killed for WIFOM... and no one start bugging me about that please, I get it, It was stupid. Who do you believe would be the three deadliest Mafia members together and why?
Wuba: Who would you most like to have as a confirmed townie and why?
Toaster: What would be your preferred town Power in this game? How about Mafia as well?
Tiruin: You are a cop with a confirmed Townie who trusts you but the rest of the town is getting ready to lynch them. Do you claim to try to save them, or use persuassion only to help with this. Lets say its day 3 and you were blocked night 2.
NQT: What would be your preferred third party role, and do you believe there will be an abundance of them similar to Toon Mafia 7, or a couple scattered through the group?
Post by: Lenglon on August 12, 2013, 12:12:30 am
Ranger: Cult is unlikely but possible. it wouldn't mesh with the story well, and it's rare anyway.
Ranger: If you don't trust your ability to identify scum, how do you plan to scumhunt?
Post by: Tiruin on August 12, 2013, 01:13:44 am
It was a gloomy day. A horrid day.
And yet, the faint idea of seeing warmth and joy through the cold was still there. Through the rain, there was the sun. And after the rain, came growth.
Such a large place. Such a lively place.
((The flavor is epic. I'd really wish to have Bookthras in here, but it seems he disappeared. :( ))
Tiruin awoke with a start, muffled by her fan-reflexes. "Erm, sorry. Was just reminded of something. There's a storm and all where I was before all this. Ghastly thing." (Warning: Storm Signal 3 [Tropical Typhoons and all] is present in my area. Expecting electrical outages and the sad note of not being able to go to school due to storm. Also, my RP'ing voice is always my normal voice, just with color and the added mannerisms of speech.) "Anyway.."
Princess Solifuge, how petty is your petticoat?Princess Ji: These questions have a point here? You aren't adding to them? Also, would you treat newbies equally as veterans in regard to committing tells?
Princess Toasterella, is your dowry delightful or dour?
...Does this dress look alright?
Solifuge: yes, I am nervous.Tiruin pouts at the thought.
Solifuge: I would pick Tiruin, Webaddict, and Jim Groovester.
"Now why would anyone be nervous around lil ol' me? Madame Lenglon, is there anything I have done to you to deserve this?
"...Also it's nice to see you again!" :D
"C-cop? Oh, so did I confirm the townie? How did that townie get confirmed?
Tiruin: You are a cop with a confirmed Townie who trusts you but the rest of the town is getting ready to lynch them. Do you claim to try to save them, or use persuassion only to help with this. Lets say its day 3 and you were blocked night 2.
"...Trusts me in what way? If you mean I confirmed him on N1, then I'd let the lynch go, but then check on what everyone else was doing to the soul and analyze from then on."
Tiruin tilts her head to the side, pondering. "This is strange, Lady Cado, like you wish to know detailed specifics. What are you trying to find out here?"
Leafsnail: Everytime I claim early, I get lynched. So no, I will not claim day 1 no matter my role or alignment because I will get killed for WIFOM... and no one start bugging me about that please, I get it, It was stupid. Who do you believe would be the three deadliest Mafia members together and why?"Can you give your own analysis on what early claims did, on the first day, in that context of getting lynched to us? What have you learned? Why is it WIFOM? Why 'three deadliest'?"
..."Soli!"
Tiruin hugs you before asking you something.
"How have you been? Last time we've met, you weren't quite talkative for days--why was that? Did you not want to talk during that time (yes I'm talking about your most recent Mafia game: Toon Mafia) or did something else happen to you then?
"Oh, also, I noticed you were intently listening to Shepard's story. Do you think our background stories also have the same weight? As in, importance to the Prince? What's your take on lurkers?"
((It is Shepard. :P))
I've learned to manage my time better. Leaving was good. I was occupying far too much time here. Now, I am steadily trying to make myself a better person. Maybe. At the very least, I'm not going as crazy anymore. You know, that sort of thing. Honestly, nothing that'll help me here, other than maintaining a sane attitude, but that's a pretty important thing. If I'm starting to go crazy, then maybe I'm not ready yet. But, so far, I haven't devolved into madness yet.I would hug you if this thing wasn't taken out of context.
Hahaha... PTSD, you so crazy...
So *hugs*.
Glad you're doing better. :)
Post by: Jim Groovester on August 12, 2013, 02:10:16 am
Princess Solifuge, how petty is your petticoat?Princess Ji: These questions have a point here? You aren't adding to them?
Princess Toasterella, is your dowry delightful or dour?
Not really.
I'm a princess. If I want to ask pointless questions that amuse only me then it is my right.
Also, would you treat newbies equally as veterans in regard to committing tells?
If they committed the same kinds of tells, then yes.
But veterans and newbies don't commit the same kinds of tells, do they? No, veterans have carefully constructed appearances and new players don't know better than to make rookie mistakes. They are different kinds of eggs to crack.
...Does this dress look alright?
Princess Jen nods very politely, perhaps overly so.
Lenglon: I would prefer a protect over a vig-kill due to how terrible my luck is, and the guilt that would seep into my posts if I used it and killed a townie.
Why would you feel guilty for killing a town?
Do you feel similarly guilty when you mislynch somebody?
Post by: Lenglon on August 12, 2013, 02:19:16 am
"Thanks, and it's good to see you again too. To be honest, your presence here is a comfort if anything. It's nice to feel like I have a friend here. It makes this crowded, formal, stuffy court life much more bearable."
Lenglon hugs Tiruin
"Thank you. um... oh! I nearly forgot. um, aren't I supposed to ask you something about how you handle events like these? uh... actually, how important are those formalities anyway? I mean..."
Lenglon shrugs
Tiruin:No
Tiruin:how important is the RVS phase and why?
Post by: Tiruin on August 12, 2013, 03:49:35 am
Tiruin:how important is the RVS phase and why?"You could use quotes, dear. To not do so would muchly be ghastly for skimming readers.
"However, it is very important! Imperative, even, to the start of any formal talk (Mafia game). Whether you mean the notion or just the label, its function is to start off anything leading on communication. Why? Communication! It explains itself that when people talk to each other, things happen. Information flows, and the vote contains enough of a psychological mark that it's effect is too relative to detail.
"Create an idea, and you'll have something to talk about. Why are you asking me this by the way?"
Post by: notquitethere on August 12, 2013, 04:06:33 am
Princess notquitethere, what mafia lessons have you learned over the course of the games you've played?I'm still not quite sure. I understand all the received wisdom but I'm still making my mind up about the finer points. I've realised a few things that others may or may not agree with. Scum very often win by keeping their head down. Especially in dire straits, never underestimate the power of a well phrased claim. A vigorous, logical appraisal of the voting patterns might find you the scum but don't expect anyone else to believe you. I only can suppose that you've come away with much different lessons. I really am more than happy to argue the wisdom in my wisdom in the likelihood that you disagree.
Princess Cado
NQT: What would be your preferred third party role, and do you believe there will be an abundance of them similar to Toon Mafia 7, or a couple scattered through the group?My prefered 3rd party role would be jester or martyr as I always lose so it might be nice to win in losing for once. We have no way of telling how abundant 3rd party roles are until the game properly gets underway. It's nice to get the ball rolling with conversation, but do you think my answer has brought you any closer to discovering the wicked princesses?
Princess Tiruin
I think we have played over ten games together now. Do you think you have a good meta-read on me now?
Princess Griffionday
I'll be blunt: what is your aim in this game?
Post by: Tiruin on August 12, 2013, 06:37:26 am
Princess TiruinTiruin folds her fan and stashes it away at your words.
I think we have played over ten games together now. Do you think you have a good meta-read on me now?
"I can say yes. I can say no. Man is ever changing, as I see from experience, but leave enough marks to denote their uniqueness. So too is your relativity of having a good enough read. Now? No. Later? Maybe. It all depends.
"But if you want a definite answer, I say no. Because you're quite the shifty fellow, Miss NacQuither. I hear you're quite adept in the field of logic, so there's where my guesses lie. Man is ever changing..much like the huge world around him.
"Why as me, of all people? And why the concept of meta? How does that relate?"
Princess CadoSo you base it on previous experiences? Why do you think you always lose?NQT: What would be your preferred third party role, and do you believe there will be an abundance of them similar to Toon Mafia 7, or a couple scattered through the group?My prefered 3rd party role would be jester or martyr as I always lose so it might be nice to win in losing for once[...]
Post by: notquitethere on August 12, 2013, 07:01:39 am
"But if you want a definite answer, I say no. Because you're quite the shifty fellow, Miss NacQuither. I hear you're quite adept in the field of logic, so there's where my guesses lie. Man is ever changing..much like the huge world around him.I ask you because I've played with you the most. I do always try to be logical, so although it doesn't pay to put too much stock in preconceptions, if you see me acting illogically you will have grounds for suspicion. I ask you about meta because it might be something that could come up later.
"Why as me, of all people? And why the concept of meta? How does that relate?"
So you base it on previous experiences? Why do you think you always lose?Why do you make everything a question? (That was rhetorical.) Of course I base my role preferences on my previous experiences. I have lost for many reasons. Sometimes it has been because of obvious mistakes, mistakes that I have learned from and that have made me a stronger player. Other times, facts of the setting and my role have made a win for me very unlikely, yet more times I've been let down the poor play of other players who have not played to the fullest of their wincons (such as Deathsword in Toon mafia, or the irrational play of the rebels in the first Revolution).
Princess Lenglon
Are you going to try anything different in your approach to this game?
Post by: webadict on August 12, 2013, 07:19:47 am
Wuba: Who would you most like to have as a confirmed townie and why?Leafsnail. He tends to escape sight of everyone as scum. Doesn't matter how much effort you put into killing his whole team. Plus, he can deal with that.
I would hug you if this thing wasn't taken out of context.Better than I was. I could bore everyone about everything, but that's a discussion for elsewhere. All that matters is that I'm doing better.
So *hugs*.
Glad you're doing better. :)
Sooo...
I guess Toaster will do. He's far too innocent to be town.
Post by: Ottofar on August 12, 2013, 11:49:06 am
Rangercado, "What makes an upstart like yourself think she's worthy of our prince?
Post by: Toaster on August 12, 2013, 12:54:54 pm
Solifuge: Can we expect your RP to course throughout a whole day then die off by day two?I'm afraid I don't know what you mean. :3
It's a reference to Toon Mafia, really. If it's gone by this post, then I suppose that answers the question in and of itself!
Solifuge: If you had an inspect, would you inspect someone scummy, someone townie, or someone you don't have a read on?Actually, I wouldn't do any of those, and would instead spend my efforts getting to know the people I perceived as the most potentially dangerous; the individuals with reputations for the most experience and skill. That would either let me know that their observations were to be trusted, or would let me stop them before their plans went into motion.
So what qualifies a person to be dangerous?
Ranger:
Toaster: [/b]What would be your preferred town Power in this game? How about Mafia as well?
Town... it's been a while since I've rolled cop. That'd be a nice one to have for a change. As scum, I favor the confusion-sowing powers- redirects and the like.
Would you rather have a confirmed townie or confirmed scum to deal with? Also, why ask about cults?
Jim:
Also, would you treat newbies equally as veterans in regard to committing tells?
If they committed the same kinds of tells, then yes.
But veterans and newbies don't commit the same kinds of tells, do they? No, veterans have carefully constructed appearances and new players don't know better than to make rookie mistakes. They are different kinds of eggs to crack.
What kind of tells would you be looking for from each group? What criteria would you use to separate honest mistakes from genuine scumtells?
NQT:
Princess Jen GroovesterPrincess notquitethere, what mafia lessons have you learned over the course of the games you've played?I'm still not quite sure. I understand all the received wisdom but I'm still making my mind up about the finer points. I've realised a few things that others may or may not agree with. Scum very often win by keeping their head down. Especially in dire straits, never underestimate the power of a well phrased claim. A vigorous, logical appraisal of the voting patterns might find you the scum but don't expect anyone else to believe you. I only can suppose that you've come away with much different lessons. I really am more than happy to argue the wisdom in my wisdom in the likelihood that you disagree.
Do you still see value personally in doing vote analysis if no one else seems to care?
Post by: RangerCado on August 12, 2013, 01:16:55 pm
Ranger: Cult is unlikely but possible. it wouldn't mesh with the story well, and it's rare anyway.Lenglon: I don't trust myself with a Vig-kill because of how reactive I can be, which would result in a probable misfire with the death of a Townie. Not to mention that if anyone was watching my actions at the time, it may lead to a wasted lynch on me the next day. Speculation, but I don't trust myself with NKs against the Mafia. I plan to scum hunt as one normally would, ask questions and judge reactions, See whos playing defencesively and whos jumping on wild accusations, and don't fully trust anyone unless you know 100% you can.
Ranger: If you don't trust your ability to identify scum, how do you plan to scumhunt?
Why do you seem to think I would not try scumhunt normally? Or at all if I understand the meaning of your question?
You inspected them Night 1 yes, and they trust you due to how you've played and acted. The details are more due to people asking for more details when I've asked the question in a more general form. (You are a cop and confirmed a townie Night 1. The town suspects them and is leading a lynch against them. Do you try to save him and in what way?)"C-cop? Oh, so did I confirm the townie? How did that townie get confirmed?
Tiruin: You are a cop with a confirmed Townie who trusts you but the rest of the town is getting ready to lynch them. Do you claim to try to save them, or use persuassion only to help with this. Lets say its day 3 and you were blocked night 2.
"...Trusts me in what way? If you mean I confirmed him on N1, then I'd let the lynch go, but then check on what everyone else was doing to the soul and analyze from then on."
Tiruin tilts her head to the side, pondering. "This is strange, Lady Cado, like you wish to know detailed specifics. What are you trying to find out here?"Leafsnail: Everytime I claim early, I get lynched. So no, I will not claim day 1 no matter my role or alignment because I will get killed for WIFOM... and no one start bugging me about that please, I get it, It was stupid. Who do you believe would be the three deadliest Mafia members together and why?"Can you give your own analysis on what early claims did, on the first day, in that context of getting lynched to us? What have you learned? Why is it WIFOM? Why 'three deadliest'?"
What I am trying to do is judge your answers to these questions, and If I find something fishy, I will pursue it to the best of my ability to see if my suspicions turn up anything. If they do, i'll dig deeper. If they don't, i'll keep an eye out for other things that pop out as strange as I switch over to others.
I claimed cop day 1 in a BM. I had three votes on me and knew I was about to have a lynch case built on me from the way I was being questioned. I hoped to try and send everyone else against someone who I felt was acting scummy. As the discussion went, most thought I was lying, then saw that if the "real cop" just claimed right then, one less scum to deal with. So a few believed me. Then, slowly the votes came back against me for creating a plethora of WIFOM due to forcing the Jailer to have to protect me, so I was lynched. I have had another Bad claim experience as Third-party in Toon Mafia 7, and from those, I'd rather not claim until absolutely necissary. ie: during mass claim time, or when It could reliably shift the votes correctly. I have learned to not jump to conclusions about claiming, and think more about it... though I was correct about a lynch case coming at me in the BM
I picked three deadliest because I wish to see who leafsnail believes would be the three players he would find most dangerous as a mafia team. I also think three is a good starting point for how many mafia members we may be trying to find.
You always seem to leave me with a lot to answer Tiruin, so lets see If I can do the same. If you were the doctor, how would you pick your target during the night? How about as a tracker? And the Mafia Rolecop as well? And who do you believe is the strongest player as town in this game?
I would feel guilty for it due to harming the town with my action, and by extension, helping the Mafia team. I do as well when I mislynch someone, though not as much due to them making the mistakes that lead to their lynch, as well as the support of several players in this leading to their lynch.Lenglon: I would prefer a protect over a vig-kill due to how terrible my luck is, and the guilt that would seep into my posts if I used it and killed a townie.
Why would you feel guilty for killing a town?
Do you feel similarly guilty when you mislynch somebody?
Princess CadoNQT: An unusual question can show a slip up early on if someone answers it without thought. It was partially to start the conversation going, but an early slip is always useful in the RVS stage. Your answer shows the norm I would expect... minus some kind of put down towards me for a strange question, so I will continue to question you on more conventional things.NQT: What would be your preferred third party role, and do you believe there will be an abundance of them similar to Toon Mafia 7, or a couple scattered through the group?My prefered 3rd party role would be jester or martyr as I always lose so it might be nice to win in losing for once. We have no way of telling how abundant 3rd party roles are until the game properly gets underway. It's nice to get the ball rolling with conversation, but do you think my answer has brought you any closer to discovering the wicked princesses?
Who would you prefer to have on your scum team? What would be your preferred scum team to go against as town?
Rangercado, "What makes an upstart like yourself think she's worthy of our prince?Ottofar: I've learned from my mistakes slowly, and better to learn than to think you know everything. But what makes you believe that I would be worse than anyone else? What have you seen previously that makes you think I can't, or haven't learned?
Ranger:Toaster: I would rather have a confirmed Townie, for the simple reason that I have someone whos opinion I can see is not filled with ill intent and is honest. Knowing my allies seems a better plan to me unless i'm at deaths door, then a confirmed scum player would be more useful as a parting word.Toaster: [/b]What would be your preferred town Power in this game? How about Mafia as well?
Town... it's been a while since I've rolled cop. That'd be a nice one to have for a change. As scum, I favor the confusion-sowing powers- redirects and the like.
Would you rather have a confirmed townie or confirmed scum to deal with? Also, why ask about cults?
I asked about cults to get a conversation going and to judge reactions to an unorthodox question this early in the game. Finding a strange answer to that question was unlikely, but better to try and see where it gets you than not.
Post by: notquitethere on August 12, 2013, 01:55:29 pm
Do you still see value personally in doing vote analysis if no one else seems to care?Yes, it's a useful tool for me, especially in getting a feel for teams. It becomes more useful the longer a game goes on. I've personally found the alignment of at least six players in three different games this way. So I'll keep doing it but I'll try to look for more supporting reasons if I'm trying to convince others to lynch scum that I've found using my methods.
Princess Cado
Your answer shows the norm I would expect... minus some kind of put down towards me for a strange question, so I will continue to question you on more conventional things.Oh I meant no put down Princess, I like unusual questions. Only, I make no secret of the fact that I think this stage is mostly useful for starting conversation and of limited scumhunting use. I could be persuaded otherwise if someone showed me evidence.
Who would you prefer to have on your scum team? What would be your preferred scum team to go against as town?
I'd want Princess Tiruin on my scumteam because people have a hard time reading her. And also she's quite amicable, which is helpful in someone you're making evil plans with. And probably Princess Leafsnail as they're a competent liar.
I reckon I could take down a Princesses griffinpup-Lenglon-Ottofar team, if only because I don't think they'd be good at making convincing cases on townfolk as the days proceed. That's just a feeling though (and one I wouldn't like to see proved wrong).
This kind of question actually might have a use: if a scum player flips, you might gleam something from their opinions on other players, but only if they're particular dim or incautious.
Princess Wuba
Does emotive language have a place in good scumhunting?
Post by: Solifuge on August 12, 2013, 02:58:36 pm
Lenglon goes and gets a glass of water for Solifuge, and offers it to her.Thank you... but I still have no idea what you mean.
Solifuge: you dropped your RP almost completely when you answered that. why?
Solifuge: you had no follow-up to the questions you asked me, why? what did you learn from them?Oh, don't be so -nervous-, m'lady. We're just getting to know one another.
*At this, Lady Solifuge takes a sip from the offered glass, before leaning in closer with a small smile.*
When you should be nervous, I'll let you know.
Solifuge: If you had an inspect, would you inspect someone scummy, someone townie, or someone you don't have a read on?Actually, I wouldn't do any of those, and would instead spend my efforts getting to know the people I perceived as the most potentially dangerous; the individuals with reputations for the most experience and skill. That would either let me know that their observations were to be trusted, or would let me stop them before their plans went into motion.
So what qualifies a person to be dangerous?
the individuals with reputations for the most experience and skill.
I completely understand if you couldn't make out what I was saying. After all, I was speaking with Lady Lenglon.
"Soli!"
Tiruin hugs you before asking you something.
"How have you been? Last time we've met, you weren't quite talkative for days--why was that? Did you not want to talk during that time (yes I'm talking about your most recent Mafia game: Toon Mafia) or did something else happen to you then?
"Oh, also, I noticed you were intently listening to Shepard's story. Do you think our background stories also have the same weight? As in, importance to the Prince? What's your take on lurkers?"
Oh Tiruin, it is good to see you again! I'm afraid I was rather busy during our last engagement (http://www.quicktopic.com/50/H/fyvxtr28SmTc/m31).
I tend to find that those who are overly shy or furtive tend to have an agenda behind their "lurking", or are just not invested in the goings-on. Either way, they should be investigated the same as anyone else. Perhaps harder than others.
As for our individual histories, I...
*Solifuge lowers her voice to a whisper*
I suspect the Prince knew more about who he was gathering here than he let on. Understanding more about our histories may be important to uncovering more about this situation, but the whole thing smells of secrecy. Like there's a layer to this that we're missing. Perhaps this is all just a test of our commitment to virtue; to those things we value most. I- well, I have been given reason to think on that, as of late.
Post by: webadict on August 12, 2013, 04:20:55 pm
Princess WubaCan I get a definition or an example?
Does emotive language have a place in good scumhunting?
Post by: notquitethere on August 12, 2013, 04:34:22 pm
Post by: Leafsnail on August 12, 2013, 04:53:36 pm
Leafsnail: Everytime I claim early, I get lynched. So no, I will not claim day 1 no matter my role or alignment because I will get killed for WIFOM... and no one start bugging me about that please, I get it, It was stupid. Who do you believe would be the three deadliest Mafia members together and why?That's a fair position to take (millers are a bit different to cops though)
"Hello, Tiruin, dearest. Might I inquire, what do you call the shade of color on the dress you wear? It's lovely."Neither of these questions seem very helpful. What were you trying to achieve?
Rangercado, "What makes an upstart like yourself think she's worthy of our prince?
Post by: webadict on August 12, 2013, 05:50:51 pm
Sure, "Language designed to express and/or evoke a strong emotional response" is probably a good working definition. Examples might include expressing rage or deliberately pushing people's buttons. Or being openly exasperated or trying to make others feel sorry for you.Well, sure, that'll work fine, but it could be unethical.
Is this supposed to be related to anything that actually happened or...?
Overall, I guess you probably shouldn't do it if you can help it.
Post by: Jim Groovester on August 12, 2013, 09:18:29 pm
Toaster, what's your interest in Solifuge RPing or not?
What kind of tells would you be looking for from each group? What criteria would you use to separate honest mistakes from genuine scumtells?
There's a set of classic scumtells that new players regularly make that I've learned to identify. Things like lacking commitment in their vote, not calling the people they vote scum, and others that I fail to recall at this specific moment. That's what I look for in new players.
As for the veterans, that's harder. I'm deciding to let my gut guide me, and to listen to it closely. If I feel that things don't add up for one reason or another, I'll be sure to press people over it. There was the smell test I used to do a few years ago. I'll be bringing that back, without necessarily emoting that that's what's happening.
As for honest mistakes or scumtells, the criteria is how much I like and believe their explanation.
Princess Jen GroovesterPrincess notquitethere, what mafia lessons have you learned over the course of the games you've played?I'm still not quite sure. I understand all the received wisdom but I'm still making my mind up about the finer points. I've realised a few things that others may or may not agree with. Scum very often win by keeping their head down. Especially in dire straits, never underestimate the power of a well phrased claim. A vigorous, logical appraisal of the voting patterns might find you the scum but don't expect anyone else to believe you. I only can suppose that you've come away with much different lessons. I really am more than happy to argue the wisdom in my wisdom in the likelihood that you disagree.
How certain are you that the lessons you're learning are the right ones?
I would feel guilty for it due to harming the town with my action, and by extension, helping the Mafia team. I do as well when I mislynch someone, though not as much due to them making the mistakes that lead to their lynch, as well as the support of several players in this leading to their lynch.
Do you feel the same guilt from mislynching and killing town when you're scum?
I tend to find that those who are overly shy or furtive tend to have an agenda behind their "lurking", or are just not invested in the goings-on. Either way, they should be investigated the same as anyone else. Perhaps harder than others.
I'll keep this in mind when you disappear on Day 2.
Post by: Vector on August 12, 2013, 09:26:56 pm
Vector, how many scum are there? I don't think it was ever stated.
That is not under your purview.
Post by: webadict on August 12, 2013, 09:28:53 pm
What is?Vector, how many scum are there? I don't think it was ever stated.
That is not under your purview.
Post by: Griffionday on August 12, 2013, 09:34:40 pm
Toaster:
Griffionday: Does playing with your name buddy confuse you?Not in the least as I tend to try to pay enough attention that I'm not confused by something so trivial, I'm dreadfully sorry if it does so for others.
NQT:
Princess GriffiondayTo not be bloody lead around by my nose like an idiot like I have been in all my previous games. What about yourself?
I'll be blunt: what is your aim in this game?
Post by: Vector on August 12, 2013, 09:37:18 pm
What is?Vector, how many scum are there? I don't think it was ever stated.
That is not under your purview.
Feel free to ask any questions you like about the environment, your co-players, and so on. I will answer them in more and less detail.
However, I won't give you the number or nature of scum or third parties, whether or not you are at LyLo, possible roles in the game (though I'd suggest keeping your mind open) or any other such information.
The only thing I'll say right now, OOC, is that the theme of this game is "Love and Synthesis."
Post by: Okami No Rei on August 12, 2013, 10:02:10 pm
Okami no Rei: You're mafia, and a non-mafia member claims to have received a guilty inspection on one of your teammates. How do you react?
Princess Okami frowned. She'd not been expecting such blatant discussion of assassination strategies. What was this Princess Leaf's angle? She set aside the notion for later consideration, then focused on the conversation at hand. At least it wasn't more discussion of flowers and dresses.
Bus the teammate. NK the cop. If we're at five players, have team-mate counter-claim cop and bus me to "prove" it. Teammate then NKs someone other than cop. Three players left with a "confirmed" cop mean mafia win when the real cop is lynched.
What about if they're claiming a guily on someone who isn't your teammate?
This one's easy, she thought. If one's enemy is about to throw himself on his sword, make no move to stop them.
Let them have their fun with the "guilty" inspection (I am here assuming a near guaranteed lynch with no counter-claim). NK them that night (roleblock instead if available, unless a doctor has already died). Thank them in mafiachat for outing themselves as third-party, for leading an easy lynch on an innocent miller, or for outing a rival third-party, as applicable.
RangerCado - Would you rather be a vigilante, or have a two-shot daykill?
Solifuge - Under what circumstances would you lynch a claimed Jester?
Post by: webadict on August 12, 2013, 10:46:15 pm
What is everyone wearing? Especially Toaster. And me.What is?Vector, how many scum are there? I don't think it was ever stated.
That is not under your purview.
Feel free to ask any questions you like about the environment, your co-players, and so on. I will answer them in more and less detail.
However, I won't give you the number or nature of scum or third parties, whether or not you are at LyLo, possible roles in the game (though I'd suggest keeping your mind open) or any other such information.
The only thing I'll say right now, OOC, is that the theme of this game is "Love and Synthesis."
Post by: Vector on August 12, 2013, 11:18:12 pm
"I am glad you have decided to begin with the most important details."
"After choosing the thirteen, the castle handmaidens reminded me that it wasn't meet to differentiate by their choice of dress from the very beginning. And so on the first day, they were asked to wear matching white dresses and satin slippers. And on the first day, by their own mutual decision, they all wore crowns of crimson roses in their hair."
"How interesting."
"It was interesting," said the Prince. "Seven of them refused, in whole or in part. Oh, what was it they were picky about... uncovering their hair, or taking off their favorite shoes, or wearing women's garb, or showing a little decolletage--"
"Oh?"
"She bit the woman who was supposed to be helping her dress, screaming and crying. With her shaven head and sackcloth robes, the tears running down her cheeks, her bloody lips trembling out benedictions, she muttered something about obligations to the goddess and ran. Another who had refused to change her dress left with her--I remember that she was very tall.
I had been fond of her, and--and I was sorry."
"You were going to marry a nun?" asked Vektor.
"I have not lived a life free of mistakes. The worst was yet to come."
Vote Count
Griffinpup - Jim Groovester
Solifuge - Okami no Rei
Rangercado - Ottofar
Toaster - Webadict
Griffionday - NotQuiteThere
NotQuiteThere - RangerCado
Okami no Rei - Leafsnail
Leafsnail
Tiruin
Lenglon
Jim Groovester
Ottofar
Webadict
Not voting: Griffinpup, Solifuge, Toaster, Griffionday, Tiruin, Lenglon
Post by: webadict on August 12, 2013, 11:25:03 pm
Post by: Vector on August 12, 2013, 11:28:30 pm
Post by: Solifuge on August 13, 2013, 12:01:43 am
On another note, Lady Ottofar... why are you so quiet? You were present only long enough to insult and accuse Lady Cado... you even ignored her reply! Concealing yourself behind the mien of an investigator, before skulking away... I must ask you to explain yourself.
Solifuge - Under what circumstances would you lynch a claimed Jester?
You propose there's someone here against her will, who doesn't wish for the Prince's hand? It's plausible, I suppose... but what harm is there in keeping them around? They're as likely to aid those with honest intentions as not, no? Moreover, unless they are actively trying to ruin others, I should think it'd be a simple enough matter to come to an agreement that met their ends, as well as ours. Such are not our adversaries.
Post by: webadict on August 13, 2013, 12:22:05 am
Post by: Jim Groovester on August 13, 2013, 01:43:44 am
Feel free to ask any questions you like about the environment, your co-players, and so on.
Who's the fairest of them all?
Post by: Tiruin on August 13, 2013, 01:46:13 am
"Hello, Tiruin, dearest. Might I inquire, what do you call the shade of color on the dress you wear? It's lovely."'Shade of color. Shade of c-color. I suppose this is a shade..Great. Well, white is a blend of all colors..so I can't say it's a shade. Lieh-light seems to work. White is a blend of all colors...um.'
"White."
'Dammit.'
"What about you, Princess Otto I feel like there's something you're meaning there."
RangerCado
Quote
You always seem to leave me with a lot to answer Tiruin, so lets see If I can do the same. If you were the doctor, how would you pick your target during the night? How about as a tracker? And the Mafia Rolecop as well? And who do you believe is the strongest player as town in this game?...You do know that I appreciate that detail (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4488074#msg4488074). :D
Target: Would pick on who I perceive and feel has put sincere and thorough effort into making a case. An active one, and on the basis of meta, probably Vector and/or Toaster. But meta is on least priority here.
Tracker: Same conditions apply here as a Doctor.
Rolecop: Same conditions apply here as a Doctor, with the addition of me targeting those who make the pointiest case.
Strongest player as town: I have no idea. Who do you think is town? :I If I were to assume everyone here as town, it'd be Vector.
Because hail to the prince, sir.
If not: Jim. Because he has a systematic form of how he follows and creates cases, aims for long term goals, and is especially snarky in a likeable way.
Everyone loves Jim Groovester.
Quote
[...To Toaster]...Why ask about cults in the first place?
I asked about cults to get a conversation going and to judge reactions to an unorthodox question this early in the game. Finding a strange answer to that question was unlikely, but better to try and see where it gets you than not.
PPE: You three.
Solifuge: "While I do get the background story..in a complicated way on how he picked us all...I've to ask.
"What Goddess are you talking about? And no, while I do pay much attention to authority and the divinities..I don't know of any Goddesses."
Aw not color discrimination! D:Feel free to ask any questions you like about the environment, your co-players, and so on.
Who's the fairest of them all?
Post by: Vector on August 13, 2013, 01:57:41 am
Feel free to ask any questions you like about the environment, your co-players, and so on.
Who's the fairest of them all?
Aureliusz Vektor is probably the most impartial party in this shindig.
Post by: Solifuge on August 13, 2013, 02:31:29 am
Who's the fairest of them all?
Aureliusz Vektor is probably the most impartial party in this shindig.
:I
Post by: notquitethere on August 13, 2013, 02:40:27 am
Is this supposed to be related to anything that actually happened or...?No, I rather think the point of these questions should be to relate to things that might happen.
Overall, I guess you probably shouldn't do it if you can help it.
Princess Ottofairy
What is scummier-- parking your vote or moving your vote rapidly?
Princess Solifuge
On what condition, if any, would you tie the vote near the day's end?
Princess Groovester
How certain are you that the lessons you're learning are the right ones?I ask myself, is my current understanding of the game leading me to be a better player? I'd say so, but you will all be the judge of that as the game progresses. One trouble in drawing too many wide-ranging conclusions is the very heterodox nature of my mafia playing experience-- what has worked in one game may not necessarilly translate into another, especially when matters are complicated by unusual roles or wincons. Have you learned any recent lessons? Do you disagree starkly with any of mine?
Post by: Griffionday on August 13, 2013, 02:48:31 am
Possibly even this could be something all the women of the house could participate in, each selecting one piece of decor to grace the hall with, so that the prince could judge the more subtle aspects of his prospective bride, and how they will create a home for him. Yes, this idea had merit, she would go find the prince's servant as soon as politeness allowed to suggest this course of action.
Turning to survey her fellow brides, she noted that fairness was not a quality these women pretended to, ever one of them could claim to that title. They were truly a beautiful lot, smooth hair the color of golden wheat, rich brown, and jet black. She caught a flash of red hair and felt a hint of envy, which she quickly smothered embarrassed that she would be so unseemly to be jealous of one of her peers.
She turned and began to mingle her way through the crowd, searching for the prince's man servant whom she might be able to convince about letting them have turns returning some decor to the castle, to better suit the festive mood such an occasion should have.
Tiruin:
Target: Would pick on who I perceive and feel has put sincere and thorough effort into making a case. An active one, and on the basis of meta, probably Vector and/or Toaster. But meta is on least priority here.Do you know something we don't, dear? Why would some harpy who is merely after his money kill him before the ceremony?
Tracker: Same conditions apply here as a Doctor.
Rolecop: Same conditions apply here as a Doctor, with the addition of me targeting those who make the pointiest case.
Strongest player as town: I have no idea. Who do you think is town? :I If I were to assume everyone here as town, it'd be Vector.
Solifuge:
You propose there's someone here against her will, who doesn't wish for the Prince's hand? It's plausible, I suppose... but what harm is there in keeping them around? They're as likely to aid those with honest intentions as not, no? Moreover, unless they are actively trying to ruin others, I should think it'd be a simple enough matter to come to an agreement that met their ends, as well as ours. Such are not our adversaries.Why would someone who wishes to be here not subject herself to the danger of an untimely death? Would not such a one pester her sisters in trial to cast her out and into her freedom? I feel you may be projecting too much meaning onto Lady Okami's words, possibly from an inner turmoil towards the courtship of the Prince?
*Lady Griffionday softly clicks her tongue*
My dearest Lady NQT
NQT:I asked you a most simple question, and yet you neglected to provide an answer. Perchance you never really cared about your original question, that you did not pursue the answer with any scrutiny?Princess GriffiondayTo not be bloody lead around by my nose like an idiot like I have been in all my previous games. What about yourself?
I'll be blunt: what is your aim in this game?
Post by: notquitethere on August 13, 2013, 03:02:31 am
*Lady Griffionday softly clicks her tongue*No offense or neglect intended. A genuine oversight swiftly rectified. (I'm at work reading mafia through a much-reduced window, so it's possible but uncommon for things to be missed).
My dearest Lady NQTNQT:I asked you a most simple question, and yet you neglected to provide an answer. Perchance you never really cared about your original question, that you did not pursue the answer with any scrutiny?Princess GriffiondayTo not be bloody lead around by my nose like an idiot like I have been in all my previous games. What about yourself?
I'll be blunt: what is your aim in this game?
To answer: my aim in the sense in which you took my question is the same as always: to improve and to win. And I will always try to win. What will you do to move towards preventing yourself from being misled?
Post by: Tiruin on August 13, 2013, 04:57:22 am
Well..it does pay to check that some of us RP as how we see ourselves.Who's the fairest of them all?
Aureliusz Vektor is probably the most impartial party in this shindig.
:I
And I'm far from fair-skinned. :P
...But really, does the physical characteristics matter here [pertaining to role], Princess Ji? [Yes I get the reference there, but am curious.]
Griffy (I can still call you Griffy right? Or do you prefer another nickname for this game?)
Tiruin:You missed part of the context added:Target: Would pick on who I perceive and feel has put sincere and thorough effort into making a case. An active one, and on the basis of meta, probably Vector and/or Toaster. But meta is on least priority here.Do you know something we don't, dear? Why would some harpy who is merely after his money kill him before the ceremony?
Tracker: Same conditions apply here as a Doctor.
Rolecop: Same conditions apply here as a Doctor, with the addition of me targeting those who make the pointiest case.
Strongest player as town: I have no idea. Who do you think is town? :I If I were to assume everyone here as town, it'd be Vector.
Quote
If not: Jim. Because he has a systematic form of how he follows and creates cases, aims for long term goals, and is especially snarky in a likeable way.I added in Vector because the questions asked to me were general (and Vector is really my choice despite the category being 'player'). No, I've no idea if Vector herself is playing the game, but I'm just adding that in (note the substituting other person in my answers) because..well, because I really like Vector's playstyle and her writing style.
So yeah. I guess my opinion on Vector is something I know that you don't, but now you know it.
And my query:
Lady Griffiondayof all the people present, Why Lady Na'Quithere, and the bluntness?*Lady Griffionday softly clicks her tongue*No offense or neglect intended. A genuine oversight swiftly rectified. (I'm at work reading mafia through a much-reduced window, so it's possible but uncommon for things to be missed).
My dearest Lady NQTNQT:I asked you a most simple question, and yet you neglected to provide an answer. Perchance you never really cared about your original question, that you did not pursue the answer with any scrutiny?Princess GriffiondayTo not be bloody lead around by my nose like an idiot like I have been in all my previous games. What about yourself?
I'll be blunt: what is your aim in this game?
To answer: my aim in the sense in which you took my question is the same as always: to improve and to win. And I will always try to win. What will you do to move towards preventing yourself from being misled?
Post by: webadict on August 13, 2013, 08:09:18 am
Quote from: notquitethere link=topic=128261.msg4490311#msg4490311 [color=red
Princess Ottofairy[/color]Why do you do this?
What is scummier-- parking your vote or moving your vote rapidly?
Post by: Toaster on August 13, 2013, 08:36:20 am
You are a cop and confirmed a townie Night 1.
This is not confirmation, given that things like godfathers and non-sane cops exist. "Confirmed" is a strong word in the Mafia context, and shouldn't be used lightly.
Toaster: I would rather have a confirmed Townie, for the simple reason that I have someone whos opinion I can see is not filled with ill intent and is honest. Knowing my allies seems a better plan to me unless i'm at deaths door, then a confirmed scum player would be more useful as a parting word.
I asked about cults to get a conversation going and to judge reactions to an unorthodox question this early in the game. Finding a strange answer to that question was unlikely, but better to try and see where it gets you than not.
Fair enough.
NQT:
Princess ToasterDo you still see value personally in doing vote analysis if no one else seems to care?Yes, it's a useful tool for me, especially in getting a feel for teams. It becomes more useful the longer a game goes on. I've personally found the alignment of at least six players in three different games this way. So I'll keep doing it but I'll try to look for more supporting reasons if I'm trying to convince others to lynch scum that I've found using my methods.
Also fair enough. When are you likely to post it instead of just use it personally?
Solifuge:
I completely understand if you couldn't make out what I was saying. After all, I was speaking with Lady Lenglon.
I did see that, but I was wondering if there was anything more. Guess not.
Jim:
Toaster, what's your interest in Solifuge RPing or not?
Mostly just curiosity, but it does show how personally invested into the game he is.
As far as your scumtell bit, fair enough.
Griffinpup: What is your goal in RVS?
Webadict: Since you're so interested in dress color, what would you do if someone proposed a dress color claim?
Post by: notquitethere on August 13, 2013, 08:58:29 am
Quote from: webadict
Do what? Ask a reasonable RVS question in the RVS stage? Or should I not direct questions to people that I'm playing against in other games? Is that poor mafia-etiquette? I'm not holding any inter-game grudge, Ottofar has as much chance of being town in this game as any other and he's not even the first person I've voted this game. It's hard to think of any mafia-relevant question that would be useful and also couldn't also be read as commentary on another game. If you're accusing me of something then come out with it.Quote from: notquitethereWhat is scummier-- parking your vote or moving your vote rapidly?Why do you do this?
Princess Toaster
Also fair enough. When are you likely to post it instead of just use it personally?When it's compellingness is difficult even for skeptics to deny. Like, if after four days it had transpired that a player had never used their vote or only voted the vote-lead and so on.
Post by: webadict on August 13, 2013, 09:55:46 am
Webadict: Since you're so interested in dress color, what would you do if someone proposed a dress color claim?I would laugh as everyone claims white. Simple as that.
Princess WubaNo, I mean why did you unvote your previous target, but is there something about Ottofar that means you shouldn't vote him?Quote from: webadictDo what? Ask a reasonable RVS question in the RVS stage? Or should I not direct questions to people that I'm playing against in other games? Is that poor mafia-etiquette? I'm not holding any inter-game grudge, Ottofar has as much chance of being town in this game as any other and he's not even the first person I've voted this game. It's hard to think of any mafia-relevant question that would be useful and also couldn't also be read as commentary on another game. If you're accusing me of something then come out with it.Quote from: notquitethereWhat is scummier-- parking your vote or moving your vote rapidly?Why do you do this?
Post by: Ottofar on August 13, 2013, 10:20:50 am
Princess Ottofairy
What is scummier-- parking your vote or moving your vote rapidly?
Depends on the case. If there are reasons to let the vote lie, if the player sees any kind of jump or other scumminess parking can be viable. Throwing the vote everywhere for a whole day doesn't seem too effective, at least to me, in any case.
Solifuge
Huh. Though you needn't give any details, are any of you familiar with this Goddess? If so, are you able to tell the rest of us anything about her? It may be important.
On another note, Lady Ottofar... why are you so quiet? You were present only long enough to insult and accuse Lady Cado... you even ignored her reply! Concealing yourself behind the mien of an investigator, before skulking away... I must ask you to explain yourself.
"Oh, my, how rude of me. Apologies to everyone involved! I suffered from a terrible headache and had to retire into my chambers for a time."
That's to say, I was in a hurry then.
Tiruin
I love the mystery flavor. It's so vanilla."Hello, Tiruin, dearest. Might I inquire, what do you call the shade of color on the dress you wear? It's lovely."'Shade of color. Shade of c-color. I suppose this is a shade..Great. Well, white is a blend of all colors..so I can't say it's a shade. Lieh-light seems to work. White is a blend of all colors...um.'
"White."
'Dammit.'
"What about you, Princess Otto I feel like there's something you're meaning there."
"Oh, not at all, why, I just absolutely adore the colour. I would very much like to order some of the shade myself, when I get to a clothier's myself!"
LS
[/i]Leafsnail: Everytime I claim early, I get lynched. So no, I will not claim day 1 no matter my role or alignment because I will get killed for WIFOM... and no one start bugging me about that please, I get it, It was stupid. Who do you believe would be the three deadliest Mafia members together and why?That's a fair position to take (millers are a bit different to cops though)"Hello, Tiruin, dearest. Might I inquire, what do you call the shade of color on the dress you wear? It's lovely."Neither of these questions seem very helpful. What were you trying to achieve?
Rangercado, "What makes an upstart like yourself think she's worthy of our prince?
Reactions, what else is there?
RangerCado, what's the proper way to work out a 6-player MyLo? What about a 4-player one?
Post by: RangerCado on August 13, 2013, 12:23:24 pm
Quote from: Okami No Rei
RangerCado - Would you rather be a vigilante, or have a two-shot daykill?Okami: ...Now thats just playing with my Emotions right there. :P Anyway, I think I would rather have a two-shot day kill than be a vigilante. I've never been too good at the night game and abilities that can be used during the day are quite useful, especially if your on the chopping block and you want to kill your top scum picks. Day- kills are also harder to track if you mis-judge your target. To put it short, I trust my Day game more than my night game, and I find a two-shot daykill more useful because of it being a day-kill.
Quote from: Solifuge
Huh. Though you needn't give any details, are any of you familiar with this Goddess? If so, are you able to tell the rest of us anything about her? It may be important.It was mentioned in my flavor briefely, but no real details that I can figure out... except that there may be more than one... it was a bit vague on that part.
RangerCadoHmm... All seems normal answers. And why ask about cults, because of the reason in the quote. Unlikely to get a slip up, but forth a shot and it gets the conversation going. It really just came to mind as I was thinking of questions and reasons to ask them. Is there a problem with asking about cults.QuoteYou always seem to leave me with a lot to answer Tiruin, so lets see If I can do the same. If you were the doctor, how would you pick your target during the night? How about as a tracker? And the Mafia Rolecop as well? And who do you believe is the strongest player as town in this game?...You do know that I appreciate that detail (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4488074#msg4488074). :D
Target: Would pick on who I perceive and feel has put sincere and thorough effort into making a case. An active one, and on the basis of meta, probably Vector and/or Toaster. But meta is on least priority here.
Tracker: Same conditions apply here as a Doctor.
Rolecop: Same conditions apply here as a Doctor, with the addition of me targeting those who make the pointiest case.
Strongest player as town: I have no idea. Who do you think is town? :I If I were to assume everyone here as town, it'd be Vector.
Because hail to the prince, sir.
If not: Jim. Because he has a systematic form of how he follows and creates cases, aims for long term goals, and is especially snarky in a likeable way.
Everyone loves Jim Groovester.Quote[...To Toaster]...Why ask about cults in the first place?
I asked about cults to get a conversation going and to judge reactions to an unorthodox question this early in the game. Finding a strange answer to that question was unlikely, but better to try and see where it gets you than not.
Ranger:Fair enough, though it was easier in the context of the question to say it was confirmed.You are a cop and confirmed a townie Night 1.This is not confirmation, given that things like godfathers and non-sane cops exist. "Confirmed" is a strong word in the Mafia context, and shouldn't be used lightly.
RangerCado, what's the proper way to work out a 6-player MyLo? What about a 4-player one?If I understand the question right, your asking how to know if its MyLo or not. For this game, if we killed a single scum player and any harmful third-parties, but no one else, we would concievably be at 6-player MyLo when we got to 6-players. The same goes if we killed 2 scum players and harmful third-parties before we got to 4-players. This is all assuming that there are only 3 scum which seems a decent estimate given the number of players.
Post by: Lenglon on August 13, 2013, 03:39:28 pm
"I was hoping to learn what you thought of these initial formalities, they have confused me for a long time and I don't have as much faith in my ability to work my way through them. They seem so... so meaningless. I'm not even sure what we're supposed to be looking for during them. Still, I figured I'd try my best to take part, and it seemed like asking you what you thought of this 'phase' would be an adequate way to participate, although I suspect there are better ways."
"Lady NQT, I don't truely understand what you're asking me. You want to know if I plan on acting differently, but I'm not sure what I'd be acting different from. I don't feel like I've been to enough of these events to settle down in a set pattern or rhythm. I still have to learn, to grow, to keep striving to improve and make myself better. That is no different from any of the previous times I've been in these situations, so I suppose I'll act similarly, but it is still a flexible stance, and I fully intend to learn and change during my stay."
"Lady Ranger, you seemed so unsure of yourself that I was worried you would stop trusting your own views and feelings and do nothing but follow the crowd. You need to have faith in yourself, your instincts are there to protect you, use them. remember that a conspiracy can easily create a false impression of what the crowd wants simply by working together. you cannot trust such things blindly. You must make up your own mind, and make your own decisions, if you want to keep yourself and your prince safe."
"Why are you asking me this by the way?"Tiruin: quotes added
Tiruin: RVS question
Princess LenglonNQT: Different formatting, otherwise no?
Are you going to try anything different in your approach to this game?
Why do you seem to think I would not try scumhunt normally? Or at all if I understand the meaning of your question?Ranger: you said you didn't trust your own reads
NQT: different from what?
Post by: RangerCado on August 13, 2013, 03:45:03 pm
Post by: Jim Groovester on August 13, 2013, 06:15:49 pm
...But really, does the physical characteristics matter here [pertaining to role], Princess Ji? [Yes I get the reference there, but am curious.]
No, but you tell me I'm a princess and I'm competing with a bunch of other princesses, and you can bet I'm going to want to know if I'm the prettiest one.
Forsooth milady nevermore yap yap I'm being proper
Making yourself easy to understand is a virtue, you know. I just barely understood what you were trying to say in this post.
It would be nice if you talked in typical mafia game terms instead of RP terms so I don't have to waste time interpreting your properesque speak.
Oh, and hey, you know how Vector says mafia hide behind RP to fill space or avoid scumhunting or other scummy things, right? What do you think of that?
ROLEPLAY
UUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUGH
I hope you haven't made any good points because my patience for reading through your posts has dropped from 'Ugh no' levels, past 'Hell no' levels, to nearly 'Oh hell no' levels.
Have you learned any recent lessons? Do you disagree starkly with any of mine?
Yes.
- I have been gone from playing a long time.
- People do not like it when I mention this.
Day- kills are also harder to track if you mis-judge your target.
I like how ways to hide are important to you when answering these random assortments of questions.
RangerCado, I suspect you are scum.
Post by: webadict on August 13, 2013, 06:37:30 pm
Webadict: Since you're so interested in dress color, what would you do if someone proposed a dress color claim?Such an odd question...
Why ask it?
Post by: RangerCado on August 13, 2013, 06:39:19 pm
Jim: ...That was thoroughly taken out of context. Regardless, I see where your coming from. But lets look at it like this, if you get tracked by a townie killing someone, their are going to try and get you lynched. If your a townie when this happens, the town wastes a lynch on you, and Mafia get even closer to their goal than they already were when you mis-killed someone in the first place.Day- kills are also harder to track if you mis-judge your target.
I like how ways to hide are important to you when answering these random assortments of questions.
RangerCado, I suspect you are scum.
I also find it strange that your vote goes to me without any questions or further evidence. What else have I done that you find scummy?
Post by: Lenglon on August 13, 2013, 06:53:01 pm
Jim: you are overreacting. read the bottom sections of my posts whenever you can't handle the detailed purple version.ROLEPLAYUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUGH
I hope you haven't made any good points because my patience for reading through your posts has dropped from 'Ugh no' levels, past 'Hell no' levels, to nearly 'Oh hell no' levels.
Post by: Okami No Rei on August 13, 2013, 07:09:07 pm
Okami: ...Now thats just playing with my Emotions right there. :P Anyway, I think I would rather have a two-shot day kill than be a vigilante. I've never been too good at the night game and abilities that can be used during the day are quite useful, especially if your on the chopping block and you want to kill your top scum picks. Day- kills are also harder to track if you mis-judge your target. To put it short, I trust my Day game more than my night game, and I find a two-shot daykill more useful because of it being a day-kill.What if it was a one-shot daykill? Would that change your decision?
Jim: ...That was thoroughly taken out of context. Regardless, I see where your coming from. But lets look at it like this, if you get tracked by a townie killing someone, their are going to try and get you lynched. If your a townie when this happens, the town wastes a lynch on you, and Mafia get even closer to their goal than they already were when you mis-killed someone in the first place.Why should you be afraid of someone tracking you? Are you saying that you'd use a kill on someone even if you weren't confident that you could justify the kill to the rest of the town? Why do you think using a kill on a hunch, rather than waiting until you have a reasonable amount of evidence, is beneficial Town play?
Post by: Jim Groovester on August 13, 2013, 07:14:00 pm
Jim: ...That was thoroughly taken out of context. Regardless, I see where your coming from. But lets look at it like this, if you get tracked by a townie killing someone, their are going to try and get you lynched. If your a townie when this happens, the town wastes a lynch on you, and Mafia get even closer to their goal than they already were when you mis-killed someone in the first place.
No, what happens is that the town player who tracked you claims he saw you go to X player's house when X player died during the night. Then you claim that yes, that happened, because you're a vigilante. Then you state your reasons for your kills and everybody has a big discussion about how much they believe you. It is not an automatic lynch since vigilantes are potent town resources.
Your answers to various RVS questions posed to you indicate you're overly interested in how a role will bite you in the ass, and in some instances more interested in that than the sorts of opportunities the role affords you.
Getting caught, it seems, is a point of worry for you. I wonder why?
I also find it strange that your vote goes to me without any questions or further evidence. What else have I done that you find scummy?
Gotta start somewhere.
Jim: you are overreacting. read the bottom sections of my posts whenever you can't handle the detailed purple version.
I would if it contained as much detail and context as the purple RP text.
Post by: Toaster on August 13, 2013, 08:39:21 pm
Webadict: Since you're so interested in dress color, what would you do if someone proposed a dress color claim?Such an odd question...
Why ask it?
Why ask it? Here's why:
Webadict: Since you're so interested in dress color, what would you do if someone proposed a dress color claim?I would laugh as everyone claims white. Simple as that.
Obviously you think there is a correlation between dress color and alignment, so it's a totally fair question to ask. You reinforce your viewpoint afterward:
What is everyone wearing? Especially Toaster. And me.
Are these seven among us now or did they leave? Basically, was it initially 13 or 20?
So what lead you to that conclusion?
Ranger:
Ranger:Fair enough, though it was easier in the context of the question to say it was confirmed.You are a cop and confirmed a townie Night 1.This is not confirmation, given that things like godfathers and non-sane cops exist. "Confirmed" is a strong word in the Mafia context, and shouldn't be used lightly.
Eh. You could just say "got a town inspect on the player." But whatever.
Jim:
Jim: you are overreacting. read the bottom sections of my posts whenever you can't handle the detailed purple version.
I would if it contained as much detail and context as the purple RP text.
Oh really?
ROLEPLAY
UUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUGH
I hope you haven't made any good points because my patience for reading through your posts has dropped from 'Ugh no' levels, past 'Hell no' levels, to nearly 'Oh hell no' levels.
How do you know if you didn't read it?
Spoiler: OOC to Jim (click to show/hide)
Post by: Vector on August 13, 2013, 08:56:20 pm
Obviously, if you don't have any, then you don't have any. But the best time for me to do it is when I'm already in front of the computer thinking about this thread.
Post by: Jim Groovester on August 13, 2013, 09:00:11 pm
How do you know if you didn't read it?
I did read it, because the RP-less summary didn't contain enough information to get a good sense of what Lenglon was saying, who she was responding to, what about, and so on.
And then I complained very vocally about how much I didn't like reading it. Maybe even added in a little hyperbole. A colorful description here and there.
Post by: webadict on August 13, 2013, 09:01:04 pm
Wuba:I actually only asked it because I didn't know if it mattered. I wanted to know if we were wearing different types of dresses or something. Because honestly, I wasn't sure what I was wearing, and it made me a little uncomfortable.Webadict: Since you're so interested in dress color, what would you do if someone proposed a dress color claim?Such an odd question...
Why ask it?
Why ask it? Here's why:Webadict: Since you're so interested in dress color, what would you do if someone proposed a dress color claim?I would laugh as everyone claims white. Simple as that.
Obviously you think there is a correlation between dress color and alignment, so it's a totally fair question to ask. You reinforce your viewpoint afterward:What is everyone wearing? Especially Toaster. And me.Are these seven among us now or did they leave? Basically, was it initially 13 or 20?
So what lead you to that conclusion?
But, here's some questions:
What is the Prince's name? What is he wearing? Does this game go until we've figured out who marries him?
Post by: Griffionday on August 14, 2013, 12:28:34 am
Lady Griffionday-snip-No offense or neglect intended. A genuine oversight swiftly rectified. (I'm at work reading mafia through a much-reduced window, so it's possible but uncommon for things to be missed).
To answer: my aim in the sense in which you took my question is the same as always: to improve and to win. And I will always try to win. What will you do to move towards preventing yourself from being misled?
Thank you for answering my question. That's the catch isn't it. I shall start by assuming everyone is a suspicious party until I've locked horns with them a few times.
As for the neglect, if you had merely asked me a question I could understand just moving on after missing my answer; I possibly could understand just glossing over my answer as you were on a small screen if that was the case (your answer was unclear as to what was missed). That's not the complete case though, you voted for me. I was under the impression that the "random" part of "random voting phase" was about who you focused on and started your pressure on, rather than just randomly throwing your vote around to seem to be doing stuff while you wait for a clock to tick down to day two. Why did you not care where your vote was and move on to a decidedly unpointed question to Lady Ottofar?
Lady Tiruin:
Griffy (I can still call you Griffy right? Or do you prefer another nickname for this game?)Of course you may, I much prefer "Griffy" to "Day" as it doesn't get confusing when people say things like "Did you want the Day to end early." (Quote from BM, it took me a couple times).
While that is a fair answer; I've loved the tale she is spinning so far, I must ask why you considered this a proper/useful answer to Ranger's original question?Lady Tiruin:You missed part of the context added:-snip-Do you know something we don't, dear? Why would some harpy who is merely after his money kill him before the ceremony?QuoteIf not: Jim. Because he has a systematic form of how he follows and creates cases, aims for long term goals, and is especially snarky in a likeable way.I added in Vector because the questions asked to me were general (and Vector is really my choice despite the category being 'player'). No, I've no idea if Vector herself is playing the game, but I'm just adding that in (note the substituting other person in my answers) because..well, because I really like Vector's playstyle and her writing style.
So yeah. I guess my opinion on Vector is something I know that you don't, but now you know it.
And my query:I'm voting for Lady NQT to emphasize my point that her vote swapping without really paying attention to where her vote was isn't acceptable even during RVS. The bluntness was originally due to a lack of time for posting a full response, the second time I felt something was off.Lady Griffiondayof all the people present, Why Lady Na'Quithere, and the bluntness?*Lady Griffionday softly clicks her tongue*No offense or neglect intended. A genuine oversight swiftly rectified. (I'm at work reading mafia through a much-reduced window, so it's possible but uncommon for things to be missed).
My dearest Lady NQTNQT:I asked you a most simple question, and yet you neglected to provide an answer. Perchance you never really cared about your original question, that you did not pursue the answer with any scrutiny?Princess Griffionday I'll be blunt: what is your aim in this game?To not be bloody lead around by my nose like an idiot like I have been in all my previous games. What about yourself?
To answer: my aim in the sense in which you took my question is the same as always: to improve and to win. And I will always try to win. What will you do to move towards preventing yourself from being misled?
Lady Jim:
Sorry for causing you trouble. I'm glad you understood though! That is a major improvement over the opening of ToonMafia for me, so I'm counting this as a victory. I'll try to reign it in a bit though.Forsooth milady nevermore yap yap I'm being properMaking yourself easy to understand is a virtue, you know. I just barely understood what you were trying to say in this post. It would be nice if you talked in typical mafia game terms instead of RP terms so I don't have to waste time interpreting your properesque speak.
Oh, and hey, you know how Vector says mafia hide behind RP to fill space or avoid scumhunting or other scummy things, right? What do you think of that?Firstly I don't think she meant to imply that scumhunting was scummy.
That being said, I don't think this is a tell that I can safely use to gauge scummieness in this game, considering the slew of games that have had RP elements in them so the "typical mafia game terms" are relatively untaught. You will note that the confusing RP is mostly by the newer players who are likely to have been effected by this. If you consider this to be an useful tell despite this can you please explain why?
Post by: notquitethere on August 14, 2013, 01:47:48 am
No, I mean why did you unvote your previous target, but is there something about Ottofar that means you shouldn't vote him?
That's not the complete case though, you voted for me. I was under the impression that the "random" part of "random voting phase" was about who you focused on and started your pressure on, rather than just randomly throwing your vote around to seem to be doing stuff while you wait for a clock to tick down to day two. Why did you not care where your vote was and move on to a decidedly unpointed question to Lady Ottofar?Hah, it's fair to say I actually get a bit too enthusiastic with throwing around the red vote. I never explicitly unvoted, it's more that I also put a red vote on Ottofar and by the rules of the game that counted as unvoting Griffionday. As I'll admit and as Ottofar says below, this probably isn't an effective strategy. Basically on a certain level I don't really believe an RVS vote holds weight, hence my over-casualness here. These initial flurries are just to get a conversation started until a plausible lynch candidate emerges. On further reflection, I have almost got mislynched a few times now by RVS votes that players have parked so I really should take them more seriously. Just because I don't think they're significant, doesn't mean others feel the same. In any case, now we're a few days into Day 1 I'll be much more circumspect. Pressure votes from here on in until we get to lynching votes. I believe in the weight of pressure votes.
Princess Ottofar
Throwing the vote everywhere for a whole day doesn't seem too effective, at least to me, in any case.That's a reasonable position to hold sure.
Princess Lenglon
Different from other games you've played in. So you've perfected your mafia technique and plan on making no changes to your playstyle? An enviable position!Are you going to try anything different in your approach to this game?NQT: Different formatting, otherwise no?
NQT: different from what?
Princess Cado
Why are you so jumpy about a substanceless RVS vote?RangerCado, I suspect you are scum.I also find it strange that your vote goes to me without any questions or further evidence. What else have I done that you find scummy?
Post by: Vector on August 14, 2013, 01:49:53 am
For now I'd like to remind you that the day is scheduled to end in 12 hours.
Post by: Lenglon on August 14, 2013, 01:53:49 am
I guess I did make my summaries too short Jim, NQT didn't understand what I said in my answer. time for a short RP-less post then.
NQT: My gameplay style has been in a state of flux throughout all the games I've played, and this one will be no different. meaning I'm going to be changing it constantly... which is the same as it was in past games.
Extend
Post by: RangerCado on August 14, 2013, 02:06:11 am
Post by: Griffionday on August 14, 2013, 03:12:33 am
NQT:
Basically on a certain level I don't really believe an RVS vote holds weight, hence my over-casualness here. These initial flurries are just to get a conversation started until a plausible lynch candidate emerges.I dislike your choice of verb. Emerges is a passive verb that implies it's not part of your duty as a potential bride (town) to be actively seeking out those who would cause chaos and death. If you chose to just let it happen, then you run the risk of letting those who would cause harm to others (scum) become the driving force behind the lynch candidates.
Take for example this:
To answer: my aim in the sense in which you took my question is the same as always: to improve and to win. And I will always try to win. What will you do to move towards preventing yourself from being misled?Apparently you had a different question in mind than the one I answered. Why did you choose to let that fact slide and follow up with a question that focused on my answer to your question rather than the fact that I missed your point?
Post by: Jim Groovester on August 14, 2013, 04:30:30 am
If you consider this to be an useful tell despite this can you please explain why?
If they RP in lieu of scumhunting, then of course it's scummy, but then anything in lieu of scumhunting is scummy. I have no strong opinion about the validity of roleplaying being a scumtell since up until recently it was a rarity, and in the recent games I've been in, observed, watched, or even skimmed (this number isn't very large), I do not notice a correlation between tendency to RP and alignment.
I only bring it up, because your post here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4490318#msg4490318), the one where I asked you to be clearer, contained a sizable chunk of otherwise useless RP.
Why are you so jumpy about a substanceless RVS vote?
I intend to lynch with my vote. It's not a random vote at all.
Post by: notquitethere on August 14, 2013, 04:41:23 am
I dislike your choice of verb. Emerges is a passive verb that implies it's not part of your duty as a potential bride (town) to be actively seeking out those who would cause chaos and death. If you chose to just let it happen, then you run the risk of letting those who would cause harm to others (scum) become the driving force behind the lynch candidates.Hmm... I think there might have been a misunderstanding when it came to 'emerge'. Scumminess is an emergent property that arises out of scum posts. Obviously, I think we should be pressuring players and asking questions to draw out scummy behaviour, which you're doing an admirable job of so far.
Apparently you had a different question in mind than the one I answered. Why did you choose to let that fact slide and follow up with a question that focused on my answer to your question rather than the fact that I missed your point?
You're absolutely correct that I should have more actively followed up on the fact that you didn't precisely answer the question I thought I was asking you. Really, I was asking you what your wincon was but my question was ambiguous. After implying that you didn't answer the question I thought I was asking you, I expected you to get back to me on that point, which you now have. Nevertheless, you are correct in that I should have pursued that enquiry more directly.
To follow up, what is your wincon? (Note: I'm not asking about any role or flavour details, I just want to know what you literally aim to achieve in this game.)
Princess Leafsnail
Are you planning on making a post before day's end?
Vektor
Are there any events on at the palace (balls, hunts, banquets etc.) or are we just milling about the drawing rooms?
Princesses Groovester and Cado
Ah! I stand corrected. In that case, Princess Cado has a valid right to be a bit jumpy.Why are you so jumpy about a substanceless RVS vote?I intend to lynch with my vote. It's not a random vote at all.
Princess Groovester, what makes Princess Cado scummy enough to lynch after so little has happened?
Post by: Tiruin on August 14, 2013, 05:35:19 am
Post by: Jim Groovester on August 14, 2013, 05:57:43 am
Look here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4492376#msg4492376) and here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4492487#msg4492487).
I hope my insinuations are obvious enough, but in case they aren't, he's scum because it's apparent from his RV answers that he's worried a lot about getting lynched, getting caught, incriminating himself, and that sort of thing. These are things that worry scum more than town.
Then, after I leveled my accusation, he spends the next nine hours and some sixty odd posts elsewhere on the forum. I think I may have rattled him a little, so there's that too.
Hm, I just realized, he forgot to answer one of my questions (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4489516#msg4489516). He should probably get on that.
Post by: notquitethere on August 14, 2013, 06:36:06 am
Princess Cado
In the vast majority of cases where a vigilante miskills a player at night and they're tracked by town, there'll also be a scum night kill. In such a case, it'd be easy and believable for the vigilante to claim vigilante. They're not going to be counterclaimed (as this would confirm the fakeclaimer as scum if the vig is lynched), so the worst that could happen is players believe them to be a serial killer (but the benefit of the doubt would probably be given if your scum hunting was otherwise sound). Essentially, your response did seem very unguarded. Could you expand on your thoughts here?
Post by: freeformschooler on August 14, 2013, 06:40:40 am
Post by: webadict on August 14, 2013, 07:55:31 am
Princesses Wuba and GriffionBut your vote doesn't hold any pressure, since there's no reasoning behind why you DROPPED it. All it shows to the next person is that they just have to answer one question in some manner that isn't stupid, and you'll drop the vote.No, I mean why did you unvote your previous target, but is there something about Ottofar that means you shouldn't vote him?That's not the complete case though, you voted for me. I was under the impression that the "random" part of "random voting phase" was about who you focused on and started your pressure on, rather than just randomly throwing your vote around to seem to be doing stuff while you wait for a clock to tick down to day two. Why did you not care where your vote was and move on to a decidedly unpointed question to Lady Ottofar?Hah, it's fair to say I actually get a bit too enthusiastic with throwing around the red vote. I never explicitly unvoted, it's more that I also put a red vote on Ottofar and by the rules of the game that counted as unvoting Griffionday. As I'll admit and as Ottofar says below, this probably isn't an effective strategy. Basically on a certain level I don't really believe an RVS vote holds weight, hence my over-casualness here. These initial flurries are just to get a conversation started until a plausible lynch candidate emerges. On further reflection, I have almost got mislynched a few times now by RVS votes that players have parked so I really should take them more seriously. Just because I don't think they're significant, doesn't mean others feel the same. In any case, now we're a few days into Day 1 I'll be much more circumspect. Pressure votes from here on in until we get to lynching votes. I believe in the weight of pressure votes.
See, I just don't believe in those types of votes. If you're voting someone, it should be to lynch them. Because that's what it's there for. It's like a gun. You do not just point guns at people unless you're set on killing them. Otherwise, it's just an empty vote. How can we take you seriously?
Post by: notquitethere on August 14, 2013, 08:14:53 am
This is a disputable taxonomy, but that's what I'm working with. So when I said 'I believe in pressure votes' I wasn't saying that all my votes in this game were pressure votes, far from it, but that purely random vote stage votes are without pressure, hence why I was comparatively careless in placing them. Now we're so close to deadline, we have left the random vote stage in any case.
So to take the current situation: my vote on Cado will stay unless he gives me a compelling reason to shift it, and the further the game progresses and the scummier players appear, the greater the weight of reason they'll need to shift a vote. I believe in trying to make the vote do some work. That said, I'm always learning and I'll bear your points in mind.
Post by: RangerCado on August 14, 2013, 09:29:37 am
Okami: Having it a one-shot would not change my decision. I still find Day powers more useful than Night powers in a lot of cases.Okami: ...Now thats just playing with my Emotions right there. :P Anyway, I think I would rather have a two-shot day kill than be a vigilante. I've never been too good at the night game and abilities that can be used during the day are quite useful, especially if your on the chopping block and you want to kill your top scum picks. Day- kills are also harder to track if you mis-judge your target. To put it short, I trust my Day game more than my night game, and I find a two-shot daykill more useful because of it being a day-kill.What if it was a one-shot daykill? Would that change your decision?Jim: ...That was thoroughly taken out of context. Regardless, I see where your coming from. But lets look at it like this, if you get tracked by a townie killing someone, their are going to try and get you lynched. If your a townie when this happens, the town wastes a lynch on you, and Mafia get even closer to their goal than they already were when you mis-killed someone in the first place.Why should you be afraid of someone tracking you? Are you saying that you'd use a kill on someone even if you weren't confident that you could justify the kill to the rest of the town? Why do you think using a kill on a hunch, rather than waiting until you have a reasonable amount of evidence, is beneficial Town play?
And I would not kill on a hunch and I would gather evidence, but the likeliest outcome to me for how I think, would it would be a case against the player who I thought the least likeliest to get lynched on my scum list, despite evidence I found to support it. I have a confidence issue with things like that, I want to use the power correctly, but how can I justify it if I'm wrong when the person had less scummy activity than others, but wasn't holding up for me? To answer your question fully, killing on a hunch is not beneficial to Town in most, if not all cases. Those cases where its not, I have no idea.
Jim: I, am a paranoid person in this game. I did something similar in Webadict's Magic Mafia where I acted really paranoid for most of the game. And like most people, I don't like it when I find out I'm wrong in my case against someone. And I thought we were talking about a Day-kill, why the sudden switch to the Vigilante example?Jim: ...That was thoroughly taken out of context. Regardless, I see where your coming from. But lets look at it like this, if you get tracked by a townie killing someone, their are going to try and get you lynched. If your a townie when this happens, the town wastes a lynch on you, and Mafia get even closer to their goal than they already were when you mis-killed someone in the first place.
No, what happens is that the town player who tracked you claims he saw you go to X player's house when X player died during the night. Then you claim that yes, that happened, because you're a vigilante. Then you state your reasons for your kills and everybody has a big discussion about how much they believe you. It is not an automatic lynch since vigilantes are potent town resources.
Your answers to various RVS questions posed to you indicate you're overly interested in how a role will bite you in the ass, and in some instances more interested in that than the sorts of opportunities the role affords you.
Getting caught, it seems, is a point of worry for you. I wonder why?I also find it strange that your vote goes to me without any questions or further evidence. What else have I done that you find scummy?
Gotta start somewhere.
And you "gotta start somewhere" is by putting an admitted lynch vote on me and then not asking any questions till I called you out on it? I fail to see how that makes any sense.
Princess CadoNQT: See above to Jim about me being paranoid about roles a lot. This is not new behaviour for me, as was shown in my first few games as well. And I can only think of one time in my short time on this board that my scum hunting could have been enough to justify a kill to the other players. (And I was right too... though they were mod-killed by Wuba because of everyone dropping Magic Mafia)
In the vast majority of cases where a vigilante miskills a player at night and they're tracked by town, there'll also be a scum night kill. In such a case, it'd be easy and believable for the vigilante to claim vigilante. They're not going to be counterclaimed (as this would confirm the fakeclaimer as scum if the vig is lynched), so the worst that could happen is players believe them to be a serial killer (but the benefit of the doubt would probably be given if your scum hunting was otherwise sound). Essentially, your response did seem very unguarded. Could you expand on your thoughts here?
Jim: Since your vote is a lynch vote, i'll ask you this. If I flipped town, how would you react with your current evidence? And may I ask why you only said you suspected I was scum with no further questions until called out on it?
NQT: Your vote is adding pressure because you wish for more information rather than going for a Lynch vote like Jim so i'll ask you this. In the other games you've played with me, how does my behaviour in those compare to now? And who else besides me seems scummy to you?
Lenglon: What lessons have you learned from previous games that you are trying to implement in this one? Do you believe their working in the different environment so far?
Tiruin: When your feeling better, who do you find most suspicious right now? How about least as well? ((Get well soon))
Post by: Leafsnail on August 14, 2013, 09:32:22 am
That sounds pretty reasonable. Unvote.Okami no Rei: You're mafia, and a non-mafia member claims to have received a guilty inspection on one of your teammates. How do you react?
Princess Okami frowned. She'd not been expecting such blatant discussion of assassination strategies. What was this Princess Leaf's angle? She set aside the notion for later consideration, then focused on the conversation at hand. At least it wasn't more discussion of flowers and dresses.
Bus the teammate. NK the cop. If we're at five players, have team-mate counter-claim cop and bus me to "prove" it. Teammate then NKs someone other than cop. Three players left with a "confirmed" cop mean mafia win when the real cop is lynched.What about if they're claiming a guily on someone who isn't your teammate?
This one's easy, she thought. If one's enemy is about to throw himself on his sword, make no move to stop them.
Let them have their fun with the "guilty" inspection (I am here assuming a near guaranteed lynch with no counter-claim). NK them that night (roleblock instead if available, unless a doctor has already died). Thank them in mafiachat for outing themselves as third-party, for leading an easy lynch on an innocent miller, or for outing a rival third-party, as applicable.
Princess LeafsnailYeah.
Are you planning on making a post before day's end?
Reactions, what else is there?What reactions? How would they help? I'm pretty sure you were going for an under-the-radar strategy.
Why are you so jumpy about a substanceless RVS vote?
Princess Groovester, what makes Princess Cado scummy enough to lynch after so little has happened?
Princess CadoAll three of these votes make no sense at all, notquitethere. You go from thinking a line of reasoning is a joke, to thinking it's weak to the point of being scummy, to thinking it's a damning case.
In the vast majority of cases where a vigilante miskills a player at night and they're tracked by town, there'll also be a scum night kill. In such a case, it'd be easy and believable for the vigilante to claim vigilante. They're not going to be counterclaimed (as this would confirm the fakeclaimer as scum if the vig is lynched), so the worst that could happen is players believe them to be a serial killer (but the benefit of the doubt would probably be given if your scum hunting was otherwise sound). Essentially, your response did seem very unguarded. Could you expand on your thoughts here?
Firstly, all three of these positions seem dumb to me. Jim's vote was pretty clearly serious, but not a locked in lynch vote, so your first two positions were weird (especially because you've since acknowledged a middle ground between the two types of votes exists). I also don't see much strength at all to Jim's case, so it seems odd that you'd switch to emphatically supporting it afterwards.
Secondly, I don't think you'd allow yourself to be smacked around this easily as town - I usually find you pretty stubborn and set in your reads. I suspect you voted Jim in a panic, then regretted it reverted your vote back to Cado after you calmed down again.
Post by: Ottofar on August 14, 2013, 10:16:05 am
Reactions, what else is there?What reactions? How would they help? I'm pretty sure you were going for an under-the-radar strategy.
Any reactions and all reactions. They could help find the scum. Also, you would be wrong, then.
RangerCado, what's the proper way to work out a 6-player MyLo? What about a 4-player one?If I understand the question right, your asking how to know if its MyLo or not. For this game, if we killed a single scum player and any harmful third-parties, but no one else, we would concievably be at 6-player MyLo when we got to 6-players. The same goes if we killed 2 scum players and harmful third-parties before we got to 4-players. This is all assuming that there are only 3 scum which seems a decent estimate given the number of players.
All right. How would you act in each scenario?
Extend
Post by: Leafsnail on August 14, 2013, 10:41:15 am
do anything -> something happens in response -> ??? -> scum found
?
Post by: Ottofar on August 14, 2013, 10:46:18 am
Post by: Leafsnail on August 14, 2013, 10:47:07 am
Post by: Lenglon on August 14, 2013, 11:06:25 am
Lenglon: What lessons have you learned from previous games that you are trying to implement in this one? Do you believe their working in the different environment so far?Ranger: too long to list, you asked me what every single lesson I've learned over the course of every single mafia game I've ever played was. if you have a more specific question, feel free to ask, but I'm not answering that one, I value my time and effort more than that.
Ottofar: why are you refusing to give details or specifics?
Post by: webadict on August 14, 2013, 11:45:17 am
Really? Nothing strikes you as off about that? All of that sounds reasonable?That sounds pretty reasonable. Unvote.Okami no Rei: You're mafia, and a non-mafia member claims to have received a guilty inspection on one of your teammates. How do you react?
Princess Okami frowned. She'd not been expecting such blatant discussion of assassination strategies. What was this Princess Leaf's angle? She set aside the notion for later consideration, then focused on the conversation at hand. At least it wasn't more discussion of flowers and dresses.
Bus the teammate. NK the cop. If we're at five players, have team-mate counter-claim cop and bus me to "prove" it. Teammate then NKs someone other than cop. Three players left with a "confirmed" cop mean mafia win when the real cop is lynched.What about if they're claiming a guily on someone who isn't your teammate?
This one's easy, she thought. If one's enemy is about to throw himself on his sword, make no move to stop them.
Let them have their fun with the "guilty" inspection (I am here assuming a near guaranteed lynch with no counter-claim). NK them that night (roleblock instead if available, unless a doctor has already died). Thank them in mafiachat for outing themselves as third-party, for leading an easy lynch on an innocent miller, or for outing a rival third-party, as applicable.
Really???
Post by: Leafsnail on August 14, 2013, 12:05:03 pm
ONR: there are two claimed cops. Would you lynch anybody who isn't one of those two cops, and how do you think that relates to the first scenario
Post by: Vector on August 14, 2013, 02:50:57 pm
Post by: griffinpup on August 14, 2013, 03:33:49 pm
Griffinpup: What is your goal in RVS?To gain an understanding of the other players playing.
Jim:
Princess griffinpup, how likely are you to freak out under pressure?I don't really freak out under pressure ever, so...
Leafsnail:
What is your scumhunting process?
NQT:
What's better, quality or quantity?
Lenglon:
You're one of the most active and most RPing players here, so two questions for you.
How do you deal with your posting speed being substantially higher then several players and what problems does that create?
Why do you RP so much, despite getting flak for it in, oh, just about every single game you've RP'd in?
Otto:
Do you like goldfish? (lolololololol)
NQT:
What is the most reliable scumtell?
Post by: webadict on August 14, 2013, 05:51:02 pm
Toaster:What do you understand about players so far?Griffinpup: What is your goal in RVS?To gain an understanding of the other players playing.
Post by: Lenglon on August 14, 2013, 10:13:11 pm
Lenglon:Pup: I usually have to pay extra attention to timestamps because of my posting speed, because I'll sometimes ask someone something and have 4 or 5 other posts between my question and their answer, and they won't have actually been unreasonable in how quickly they respond, but it'll feel that way if I don't check the timestamps during my reviews. the biggest problem it creates is one of perceptions. I'm prone to looking like I'm active-lurking because I'll post 5 low-content posts instead of one high-content post.
You're one of the most active and most RPing players here, so two questions for you.
How do you deal with your posting speed being substantially higher then several players and what problems does that create?
Why do you RP so much, despite getting flak for it in, oh, just about every single game you've RP'd in?Pup: because it's fun, also, it's an extra communication channel that allows more depth of emotion and reasoning than straight text alone, particularly when someone RPs back in response.
Post by: Griffionday on August 15, 2013, 01:58:32 am
Hmm... I think there might have been a misunderstanding when it came to 'emerge'. Scumminess is an emergent property that arises out of scum posts. Obviously, I think we should be pressuring players and asking questions to draw out scummy behaviour, which you're doing an admirable job of so far.This doesn't seem to be sarcasm, which is odd because I been focused on you and unless you are scum...
You're absolutely correct that I should have more actively followed up on the fact that you didn't precisely answer the question I thought I was asking you. Really, I was asking you what your wincon was but my question was ambiguous. After implying that you didn't answer the question I thought I was asking you, I expected you to get back to me on that point, which you now have. Nevertheless, you are correct in that I should have pursued that enquiry more directly.Get back to you in what fashion? If you meant for me to try again to answer your question again why did you not bring this up when you next talked to me here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4493324#msg4493324)? Possibly you should have pursued that inquiry at all.
To follow up, what is your wincon? (Note: I'm not asking about any role or flavour details, I just want to know what you literally aim to achieve in this game.)
I win when the love of my life is safe from undesirable suitors. On that note: if you're not asking for role or flavour details what is the point of the question at all? Are you claiming a truth-telling ability or just into asking pointless questions?
Post by: notquitethere on August 15, 2013, 02:51:38 am
All three of these votes make no sense at all, notquitethere. You go from thinking a line of reasoning is a joke, to thinking it's weak to the point of being scummy, to thinking it's a damning case.It's a fair position, but you'll also see that I'll move my votes around a lot as town early day 1 (see the latest BM where as the cop I voted nearly half the other players on day 1). I like to try to interact with as many players as possible to get the broadest possible read until someone particularly scummy comes out. My focus though has been a bit off so I'll readily admit that I haven't been as effective yet as I ought to be. To explain my recent behaviour: I genuinely thought that Cado's reaction was a strange reaction to what I took to just be a dumb RVS vote, but then Jim explained how he was serious which I thought completely unjusifiable, but then I had another look at Cado's initial response and the concern with being tracked didn't seem quite right so I turned back to Cado. I have admittedly been a bit too free with throwing around the vote, but at the same time, I do think it adds a necessary degree of pressure to the questioning.
Firstly, all three of these positions seem dumb to me. Jim's vote was pretty clearly serious, but not a locked in lynch vote, so your first two positions were weird (especially because you've since acknowledged a middle ground between the two types of votes exists). I also don't see much strength at all to Jim's case, so it seems odd that you'd switch to emphatically supporting it afterwards.
Secondly, I don't think you'd allow yourself to be smacked around this easily as town - I usually find you pretty stubborn and set in your reads. I suspect you voted Jim in a panic, then regretted it reverted your vote back to Cado after you calmed down again.
To summarise: I don't emphatically support Jim's case, but I do believe in using my vote to get answers and changing my mind when new evidence comes to light. This might make me look inconstant, but I think this is better than maintaining an unsupportable vote (which I have seen stubborn town players do in the past).
Princesss Cado
NQT: Your vote is adding pressure because you wish for more information rather than going for a Lynch vote like Jim so i'll ask you this. In the other games you've played with me, how does my behaviour in those compare to now? And who else besides me seems scummy to you?To be honest Cado, I think we're mostly fumbling around in the dark on Day 1, I really hit my scumhunting stride on day 2 when I can go over interactions in light of the flip. You're explanation about paranoia fits with what I've seen of your playstyle elsewhere. What will you do this game to stop yourself being lynched?
Princess Griffinpup
The quality/quantity dichotomy is a bit misleading. The quantity of a post is one of its qualities. No one thinks that vast or frequent mostly-contentless posts are a good thing. Do you think this question has got you any closer to finding scum? Do you think random questions are appropriate near the end of Day 1 or was there nothing that has actually happened in the game to comment on?
Princess Okami
I'd almost forgotten you were playing. Do you have a compelling case on anyone yet?
Princess Griffionday
Hah, I can see that reading of things! No, I meant that you'd been doing an admirable job of pressuring. Obviously, if the player isn't scum you won't draw anything of use out of someone. Have you interacted with everyone else yet?Hmm... I think there might have been a misunderstanding when it came to 'emerge'. Scumminess is an emergent property that arises out of scum posts. Obviously, I think we should be pressuring players and asking questions to draw out scummy behaviour, which you're doing an admirable job of so far.This doesn't seem to be sarcasm, which is odd because I been focused on you and unless you are scum...
Get back to you in what fashion? If you meant for me to try again to answer your question again why did you not bring this up when you next talked to me here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4493324#msg4493324)? Possibly you should have pursued that inquiry at all.I'm not sure where your misunderstanding here lies. I asked you an ambiguous question, you answered the question one way, I implied you'd not answered the way I'd intended you to answer, you asked me why I didn't ask me the question again, then I asked the question again freely admitting that I should have reasked it sooner. I didn't reask it sooner because my focus on the game was not sufficiently strong. This isn't a scum-tell, it's just me being distracted. Now I'm more on the ball, I'm determined not to let things get to Great Temple levels where I was town but utterly ineffectual.
I win when the love of my life is safe from undesirable suitors. On that note: if you're not asking for role or flavour details what is the point of the question at all? Are you claiming a truth-telling ability or just into asking pointless questions?Neither: asking people's wincons sometimes brings surprising results. Currently, in the Witch game Tiruin spilled out that she was a third-party and wasn't actually directly interested in hunting that game's equivelant of scum.
Post by: Tiruin on August 15, 2013, 10:14:37 am
Hey, let's stop using other active games to support any case at hand, can we? This thoroughly annoys me in how you carry the same outlook and use it to convince others here.I win when the love of my life is safe from undesirable suitors. On that note: if you're not asking for role or flavour details what is the point of the question at all? Are you claiming a truth-telling ability or just into asking pointless questions?Neither: asking people's wincons sometimes brings surprising results. Currently, in the Witch game Tiruin spilled out that she was a third-party and wasn't actually directly interested in hunting that game's equivelant of scum.
WHEN THE GAME ISN'T FINISHED. >__>
I've noted you really love doing this type of thing, NQT. Relating to vagueness and uncertain points.
Consider this query. Why are you fond of doing that?
Post by: Tiruin on August 15, 2013, 10:17:16 am
Quote
« Last Edit: Today at 10:16:16 am by Tiruin »...So changing the icon next to the title on the post thing denotes an edit.
Consider me pouting at that.
Post by: lordnincompoop on August 15, 2013, 12:33:38 pm
Post by: lordnincompoop on August 15, 2013, 12:34:21 pm
Post by: Vector on August 15, 2013, 12:58:27 pm
Please don't do that again.
Agh, sorry. Wrong thread.
Why, thank you, LNCP :D :D :D
Post by: notquitethere on August 15, 2013, 01:50:15 pm
Hey, let's stop using other active games to support any case at hand, can we? This thoroughly annoys me in how you carry the same outlook and use it to convince others here.I like to back up my mafia-related points with reference to concrete events that I've experienced in other games. It helps show that I'm not just making things up and that my scum-hunting technique has developed in light of actual play-experience. I don't think referring neutrally to something that anyone can read for themselves is against any rules. Nevertheless, I see that you might think this may prejudice you in the other game, so this is the last I'll say on that.
WHEN THE GAME ISN'T FINISHED. >__>
I've noted you really love doing this type of thing, NQT. Relating to vagueness and uncertain points.
Consider this query. Why are you fond of doing that?
Post by: Vector on August 15, 2013, 01:52:45 pm
Post by: notquitethere on August 15, 2013, 02:30:00 pm
Post by: Toaster on August 15, 2013, 03:21:19 pm
I actually only asked it because I didn't know if it mattered. I wanted to know if we were wearing different types of dresses or something. Because honestly, I wasn't sure what I was wearing, and it made me a little uncomfortable.
Fair enough.
NQT:
Princess Cado
Princess Groovester
Princess Cado
This is quite the flip flop. Considering your vote is currently on Cado, what's your opinion on Jim's scummitude?
It's a fair position, but you'll also see that I'll move my votes around a lot as town early day 1 (see the latest BM where as the cop I voted nearly half the other players on day 1). I like to try to interact with as many players as possible to get the broadest possible read until someone particularly scummy comes out.
Appealing to meta is never a valid defense.
Cado:
NQT: Your vote is adding pressure because you wish for more information rather than going for a Lynch vote like Jim so i'll ask you this. In the other games you've played with me, how does my behaviour in those compare to now? And who else besides me seems scummy to you?
Appealing to meta is never a valid defense.
Ottofar:
What reactions? How would they help? I'm pretty sure you were going for an under-the-radar strategy.
Any reactions and all reactions. They could help find the scum. Also, you would be wrong, then.
Then maybe you should try to convince people otherwise.
Griffinpup:
Otto:
Do you like goldfish? (lolololololol)
I almost let your rather late set of RVS questions slide until I hit this one.
Don't you think it is rather late for RVS? Do you truly see nothing else in this game that is worthy of mention by you?
Spoiler: Extremely OOC to FFS (click to show/hide)
Post by: Ottofar on August 15, 2013, 04:06:23 pm
Ottofar:What reactions? How would they help? I'm pretty sure you were going for an under-the-radar strategy.
Any reactions and all reactions. They could help find the scum. Also, you would be wrong, then.
Then maybe you should try to convince people otherwise.
I should probably yeah.
Anyways, school started ton tuesday. That involves shenanigans, apparently, so I'll proably read this properly on the weekend. If the shenanigans continue after that, I'll request a replacement. Terribly sorry about this.
Post by: Jim Groovester on August 15, 2013, 04:16:14 pm
Jim: I, am a paranoid person in this game. I did something similar in Webadict's Magic Mafia where I acted really paranoid for most of the game. And like most people, I don't like it when I find out I'm wrong in my case against someone.
This explanation does not satisfy me. How do I know you're not just appealing to personal traits to cover up a slip up? I haven't played with you enough to make that determination and even if I did, I wouldn't accept your explanation.
I guess, basically, Toaster says it better here:
Appealing to meta is never a valid defense.
And I thought we were talking about a Day-kill, why the sudden switch to the Vigilante example?
The reasoning is the same regardless of whether it's a day kill or a night kill.
And you "gotta start somewhere" is by putting an admitted lynch vote on me and then not asking any questions till I called you out on it? I fail to see how that makes any sense.
I fail to understand your complaint.
What's so important about asking questions with a vote? Strictly speaking it's not necessary that the two go together.
Jim: Since your vote is a lynch vote, i'll ask you this. If I flipped town, how would you react with your current evidence? And may I ask why you only said you suspected I was scum with no further questions until called out on it?
I would break down in tears and quit mafia forever.
Would it make you feel better if I asked you a list of questions with my vote? If I wanted to direct my inquiry in a specific direction, I would have asked you questions to that effect.
Pup: because it's fun, also, it's an extra communication channel that allows more depth of emotion and reasoning than straight text alone, particularly when someone RPs back in response.
Right, there's more emotional depth in RP because everybody here (except you) are just a bunch of mafia-playing robots, devoid of all emo&%#!
ERROR: ON LINE 37; EMOTION "Sarcasm" NOT FOUND
No, I meant that you'd been doing an admirable job of pressuring.
Why the congratulations?
It's Day 1. Nobody knows anything. You're either buddying him or you're stupid.
Tiruin, Solifuge, webadict, the day ends tomorrow. How's your lists of suspects shaping up, and who's on it?
Post by: notquitethere on August 15, 2013, 04:41:26 pm
This is quite the flip flop. Considering your vote is currently on Cado, what's your opinion on Jim's scummitude?Mafia players, like politicians, shouldn't be afraid to have principled changes of mind. Jim's case is a lot weaker than one I'd call a lynching case. I'll see what else Cado has to say.
Appealing to meta is never a valid defense.Nor is it a valid attack: I was merely offering counter evidence to Leafsnail's meta read in me.
Princess Groovester
I think tone can often be hard to convey in text, especially between different nationalities. Obviously I am not buddying if I say to someone trying to apply pressure to me that they're doing an admirable job: in taking a friendly manner I'm showing that I don't feel pressured (and so by extension, their scumhunting is really not that admirable). My intended tone was not congratulatory in the slightest! I don't appreciate the false dichotomy, it's a dishonest tactic.No, I meant that you'd been doing an admirable job of pressuring.Why the congratulations?
It's Day 1. Nobody knows anything. You're either buddying him or you're stupid.
Post by: Jim Groovester on August 15, 2013, 04:44:48 pm
Post by: notquitethere on August 15, 2013, 04:59:19 pm
Post by: Tiruin on August 15, 2013, 06:18:02 pm
I knew that but I didn't think mentioning something that objectively just happened in another game counted as discussing, but I take the point on board and I won't do it again.Yeah. Don't. This very much did more than it's fair share of debating the matter when it isn't even half-baked. And came off to me as something I could label with certain pejoratives given my emotional state at the time.
Tiruin, Solifuge, webadict, the day ends tomorrow. How's your lists of suspects shaping up, and who's on it?NQT as of recent note, but I'm still reading back (will post later in the day) and checking the context and other parts of note.
Post by: Solifuge on August 15, 2013, 06:32:28 pm
Post by: Okami No Rei on August 15, 2013, 06:35:19 pm
Post by: Leafsnail on August 15, 2013, 07:05:47 pm
It's a fair position, but you'll also see that I'll move my votes around a lot as town early day 1 (see the latest BM where as the cop I voted nearly half the other players on day 1). I like to try to interact with as many players as possible to get the broadest possible read until someone particularly scummy comes out. My focus though has been a bit off so I'll readily admit that I haven't been as effective yet as I ought to be. To explain my recent behaviour: I genuinely thought that Cado's reaction was a strange reaction to what I took to just be a dumb RVS vote, but then Jim explained how he was serious which I thought completely unjusifiable, but then I had another look at Cado's initial response and the concern with being tracked didn't seem quite right so I turned back to Cado. I have admittedly been a bit too free with throwing around the vote, but at the same time, I do think it adds a necessary degree of pressure to the questioning.I think you're wrong about pressure in voting (a vote thrown around wildly is a vote that carries no real weight) and indeed some other things, but this answer does somehow seem honest. Unvote.
To summarise: I don't emphatically support Jim's case, but I do believe in using my vote to get answers and changing my mind when new evidence comes to light. This might make me look inconstant, but I think this is better than maintaining an unsupportable vote (which I have seen stubborn town players do in the past).
Leafsnail:In general, find something that looks mafia-ish, question it, see if it still seems mafia-ish after receiving the answer to the question (or if the response itself is mafia-ish). If there's nothing mafia seeming around (or if there's a player who hasn't been doing much) then I'll ask a question that I feel is likely to induce a scummy response from a mafia member.
What is your scumhunting process?
In return, please tell me what the point of any of those questions were (please go into more detail than "I am looking for reactions")
Post by: Tiruin on August 15, 2013, 07:26:59 pm
Griffinpup:I think he put questions towards others at that time. Though..I'm finding it strange why you're not asking him why, instead of what he's doing.Otto:
Do you like goldfish? (lolololololol)
I almost let your rather late set of RVS questions slide until I hit this one.
Don't you think it is rather late for RVS? Do you truly see nothing else in this game that is worthy of mention by you?
griffinpup: "What's the purpose of that blank you put towards Ottofar? Asking if one likes goldfish is a serious question where I come from--you can derive one's personality from their appreciation of fish: colors, texture, shape..that."
Still PFP-I've got time later.
Spoiler: Extremely OOC to FFS (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Added OOC because of FFS (click to show/hide)
Post by: webadict on August 15, 2013, 07:41:41 pm
Post by: Okami No Rei on August 15, 2013, 10:31:30 pm
You propose there's someone here against her will, who doesn't wish for the Prince's hand? It's plausible, I suppose... but what harm is there in keeping them around? They're as likely to aid those with honest intentions as not, no? Moreover, unless they are actively trying to ruin others, I should think it'd be a simple enough matter to come to an agreement that met their ends, as well as ours. Such are not our adversaries.The actual question seems to have escaped you. I ask not about one who is confirmed as a jester, but rather one who has claimed such, and when/why you would lynch them. Assume, if you please, that lynching an actual jester will end the game, with only said jester winning, as per classic rules concerning the role.
Princess Leafsnail
I misread his first answer as something that wasn't completely stupid.Insult my intellect, will she? She'll be sorry when I'm Queen.
ONR: there are two claimed cops. Would you lynch anybody who isn't one of those two cops, and how do you think that relates to the first scenarioUnless it's an open setup like a BM, who's to say there can't be two cops in a game, and one of them is an unaware miller? Anyway, I see what you're getting at now. From my scenario, town would prefer killing one of the two cops, since there's a 50/50 chance between hitting scum for a three-man LYLO, and hitting town for a scum win, as opposed to a 40/60 chance if they vote randomly.
However, from the perspective of a town player in such a situation (five-man LYLO with two claimed cops, Player A calling scum on Player B, Player B counter-claiming and calling scum on Player C), I could conceivably be convinced to lynch Player C, on the grounds that, iff my read of Player B was fairly solid Town, I'd assume that scum are sacrificing their least valuable player as the first cop claim, making Player C slightly more desirable as a lynch candidate.
So, normally I wouldn't, but I won't rule out the possibility entirely.
Princess OkamiI fear I have no case of my own, though I must admit that the one on you, Princess notquitethere, is rather compelling.
I'd almost forgotten you were playing. Do you have a compelling case on anyone yet?
To follow up, what is your wincon?Getting that particular trap out of the way, are you?
even when I deeply distrust someone I still tend to view their actions charitably until given overwhelming reason not to. That might not gel with your own mafia philosophy.Do you think this philosophy is beneficial to your play? Why can't/won't you adopt a more cynical attitude while playing?
Okami: Having it a one-shot would not change my decision. I still find Day powers more useful than Night powers in a lot of cases. And I would not kill on a hunch and I would gather evidence, but the likeliest outcome to me for how I think, would it would be a case against the player who I thought the least likeliest to get lynched on my scum list, despite evidence I found to support it. I have a confidence issue with things like that, I want to use the power correctly, but how can I justify it if I'm wrong when the person had less scummy activity than others, but wasn't holding up for me? To answer your question fully, killing on a hunch is not beneficial to Town in most, if not all cases. Those cases where its not, I have no idea.Interesting. Princess Cado, the others are accusing you of being scum simply because you're apparently afraid of getting lynched. You say you're playing paranoid, but you never explained why you're playing paranoid. Please do so.
Why the least likely to get lynched out of your scumpicks, rather than your number two most likely pick for scum (assuming you're a vigilante, and your most likely choice for scum just got lynched)?
Yeah, Toaster is definitely scum. I don't buy his faux aggression. But if you wait long enough, he'll turn on his buddy.So, you think he's scum, but you also want to keep him around to see what he'll do? Should we not lynch him now? Surely you've reached this decision based on more than just 'faux aggression'?
Post by: Griffionday on August 15, 2013, 10:51:11 pm
Firstly, please stop directly contradicting yourself in the same post, it's rather poor form.
Obviously, if the player isn't scum you won't draw anything of use out of someone.
-snip-
Neither: asking people's wincons sometimes brings surprising results. Currently, in the Witch game Tiruin spilled out that she was a third-party and wasn't actually directly interested in hunting that game's equivelant of scum.
Now onto the questions:
Have you interacted with everyone else yet?Nope, I got a bit distracted by your behavior. I'll start work on that right away though, thanks for the reminder.
Poor town play is not a scum tell. Got it.Get back to you in what fashion? If you meant for me to try again to answer your question again why did you not bring this up when you next talked to me here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4493324#msg4493324)? Possibly you should have pursued that inquiry at all.I'm not sure where your misunderstanding here lies. I asked you an ambiguous question, you answered the question one way, I implied you'd not answered the way I'd intended you to answer, you asked me why I didn't ask me the question again, then I asked the question again freely admitting that I should have reasked it sooner. I didn't reask it sooner because my focus on the game was not sufficiently strong. This isn't a scum-tell, it's just me being distracted. Now I'm more on the ball, I'm determined not to let things get to Great Temple levels where I was town but utterly ineffectual.
The "confusion" as you call it stems from the fact that I deliberately didn't follow up on your original question in this post (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4493186#msg4493186) to see if you were interested in the point or just trying to ghost your way through the first day. You didn't follow up (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4493324#msg4493324). Not a flawless test of scumminess by any means, but I feel a fairly solid one on how interested you were in the question you posed me. The fact that you didn't let it drop, but instead said "my bad, let me rephrase that" feels like a cover-up.
On that note why are you so focused on playing better now? If you're not feeling pressure from me (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4498283#msg4498283) why does my vote and discussion seem to have kicked you back into playing better? Or are you merely trying to take advantage of the fact that Bay12 Mafia seems to primarily vote for whoever is playing the worst the first day, rather than who's been the scummiest?
Neither: asking people's wincons sometimes brings surprising results. Currently, in the Witch game Tiruin spilled out that she was a third-party and wasn't actually directly interested in hunting that game's equivelant of scum.Let's test this theory: What is your win condition?
Lady Leafsnail:
Griffionday: all you seem to have done is put a vote on NQT and left it there while having a back-and-forth with him. Do you think he's scum? Is he scummy enough that you can ignore everyone else?
I'm sorry that that's all you think I've done. It's not, of course, but I'll freely admit I've been tunneling a bit more than I should. I am waiting for Tiruin to get back to me, so hopefully I'll have more than one person to talk too. (Link (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4493186#msg4493186) for easy refrence) But you are right that I can't just ignore everyone else.
By this point in our discussion I believe NQT is not true town as for scummy .
A question about your vote pattern as of late: if you see switching votes rapidly without backing them up as scummy, and now claim that placing a vote and focusing on the player until satisfied is likewise scummy, is it safe to assume you are merely trying to provoke a reaction with your current case?
Also did you mean to unvote me, or did you intend to just unvote NQT? I'm assuming the latter, but I dislike making such assumptions.
Post by: Griffionday on August 15, 2013, 10:57:04 pm
Sorry,
By this point in our discussion I believe NQT is not true town as for scummy .Should have been
Quote
By this point in our discussion I believe NQT is not true town; as for scummy... yeah, I'm willing to call him that.
Post by: webadict on August 15, 2013, 11:03:37 pm
Tiruin, Solifuge, webadict, the day ends tomorrow. How's your lists of suspects shaping up, and who's on it?I don't remember ever saying anything about a list of suspects...
But, Toaster's definitely on it. After that... I guess I've been pretty lax on who else, and on even making a case on him. I guess I feel like he's just been ignoring me this entire time. It's kinda sad.
Post by: Griffionday on August 16, 2013, 12:15:18 am
Okami no Rei -
Leafsnail -
Tiruin -
Lenglon -
Griffinpup - Toaster
RangerCado - notquitethere, Ottofar, Jim Groovester
Griffionday - Leafsnail,
notquitethere - Griffionday, Okami no Rei, RangerCado
Solifuge -
Jim Groovester -
Ottofar - Solifuge
Toaster - Webadict
Webadict -
Not voting: Tiruin, Lenglon, Griffinpup
We've little more than 12 hours before the end of the day (I believe), and I'm unlikely to return before the end of the day. Good night all, good hunting.
I'll leave an Extend, in case people decide they need it.
Post by: Vector on August 16, 2013, 12:19:02 am
Sorry about the schlocky modding, by the way. It's going to totally turn into sweet ass-modding ASAP and you be like "LOL, I did not know your thread could smell like such great colon :D"
Post by: Tiruin on August 16, 2013, 12:23:19 am
PFP - Will post soon as soon as emotions subside >_<
Post by: zombie urist on August 16, 2013, 12:27:16 am
Reasonably accurate automatic vote counting. It even works with princess prefixes. Run LT if its not up to date.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Vector on August 16, 2013, 12:28:17 am
Anyway, back to writing flavor >_>
Post by: zombie urist on August 16, 2013, 12:47:28 am
Post by: Jim Groovester on August 16, 2013, 12:51:56 am
The "confusion" as you call it stems from the fact that I deliberately didn't follow up on your original question in this post (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4493186#msg4493186) to see if you were interested in the point or just trying to ghost your way through the first day. You didn't follow up (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4493324#msg4493324). Not a flawless test of scumminess by any means, but I feel a fairly solid one on how interested you were in the question you posed me. The fact that you didn't let it drop, but instead said "my bad, let me rephrase that" feels like a cover-up.
Wait.
What?
Trying to follow your links and your logic has left me legitimately confused about the point you're trying to make.
Yeah, Toaster is definitely scum. I don't buy his faux aggression. But if you wait long enough, he'll turn on his buddy.
But, Toaster's definitely on it. After that... I guess I've been pretty lax on who else, and on even making a case on him. I guess I feel like he's just been ignoring me this entire time. It's kinda sad.
How exactly was this determination about Toaster made?
Also, just so we're clear, your scumhunting strategy so far has been:
Vote Toaster for no reason -> Get ignored -> Conclude he's scum
This seems like some pretty limpwilly scumhunting.
Post by: Vector on August 16, 2013, 01:00:03 am
Vektor
Are there any events on at the palace (balls, hunts, banquets etc.) or are we just milling about the drawing rooms?
What is the Prince's name? What is he wearing? Does this game go until we've figured out who marries him?
Lady Griffionday sighed as she walked into the hall. The poor castle seemed so bare an cold without the proper arrayments. In her minds eye she could see the tapestries that must have hung on the walls, noted the absence of the rich rugs and carpets that surely had once softened the cold stone floor. Such a shame, and such a sorry place for an engagement to take place. Perhaps she could find the prince's man servant, and have him show her the removed decor to temporarily grace the place till whomever the prince chose could select fitting replacements.
Possibly even this could be something all the women of the house could participate in, each selecting one piece of decor to grace the hall with, so that the prince could judge the more subtle aspects of his prospective bride, and how they will create a home for him. Yes, this idea had merit, she would go find the prince's servant as soon as politeness allowed to suggest this course of action.
Turning to survey her fellow brides, she noted that fairness was not a quality these women pretended to, ever one of them could claim to that title. They were truly a beautiful lot, smooth hair the color of golden wheat, rich brown, and jet black. She caught a flash of red hair and felt a hint of envy, which she quickly smothered embarrassed that she would be so unseemly to be jealous of one of her peers.
She turned and began to mingle her way through the crowd, searching for the prince's man servant whom she might be able to convince about letting them have turns returning some decor to the castle, to better suit the festive mood such an occasion should have.
The manservant is a tall and tightlipped fellow named Horatio who, like his master, wears plain black clothing from head to foot. He leads you to a storehouse filled with an array of oddities: candelabras, rugs, tapestries, paintings, books both printed and illuminated, desks. They are as diverse a collection as any young lady might hope to see in her future home in all manner of colors and styles; an overbearing heap of richness.
"These were his brother's things, and his uncle's before, and his father's before that," quoth Horatio. "Do what you will."
As you look through them, marveling, considering, the Prince appears at the door. Beside Horatio, they are as twin shadows.
"Oh," he says. "Milady. I see that you--I was looking for Horatio, here."
He swallows.
"Well. Carry--carry on then. I shall speak with him later. Do not tarry too much, however, as we must plan tonight's feast."
He smiles charmingly, reflexively, and departs.
"Anon, fair Sigfred," intones Horatio, before turning his gaze again to you. There is something hard and analytical in it, but not unfriendly--merely careful.
The Day ends in 13 hours. Two votes out of four for an extension until Tuesday received.
Post by: Tiruin on August 16, 2013, 01:02:42 am
Post by: RangerCado on August 16, 2013, 01:09:22 am
Post by: Vector on August 16, 2013, 01:12:09 am
Post by: notquitethere on August 16, 2013, 03:32:32 am
1. Compelling in what way? In your own words can you describe what the case against me is? This rather strikes me as a lazy vote in response to being prodded for inactivity.Princess Okami1. I fear I have no case of my own, though I must admit that the one on you, Princess notquitethere, is rather compelling.
I'd almost forgotten you were playing. Do you have a compelling case on anyone yet?To follow up, what is your wincon?2. Getting that particular trap out of the way, are you?even when I deeply distrust someone I still tend to view their actions charitably until given overwhelming reason not to. That might not gel with your own mafia philosophy.3. Do you think this philosophy is beneficial to your play? Why can't/won't you adopt a more cynical attitude while playing?
2. I'm not sure what your point is here. Explain how this is to my benefit if I am scum, with reference to the claim I make to Griffionday below.
3. Cynicism is rank sentimentality: whilst the sentimental ignore all but an insipidly positive, cynics see only the negative. I just try to be fair and I try not to blow up little things bigger than they are and I tend to change my mind when I'm presented with good reason to. Whilst I always lose mafia, I don't think it's because I refuse to willfully misinterpret others in the worst possible light.
Lady Griffionday
Firstly, please stop directly contradicting yourself in the same post, it's rather poor form.Okay, in the first statement, I should have said 'not town' rather than 'scum'.Obviously, if the player isn't scum you won't draw anything of use out of someone.
-snip-
Neither: asking people's wincons sometimes brings surprising results. Currently, in the Witch game Tiruin spilled out that she was a third-party and wasn't actually directly interested in hunting that game's equivelant of scum.
The fact that you didn't let it drop, but instead said "my bad, let me rephrase that" feels like a cover-up.Sorry, the fact that I admitted my wrongdoing and did what I should have done in the first place is a cover-up? What should I have done? Say, "Well there was a question I was going to ask you, but you know, never mind"?
On that note why are you so focused on playing better now? If you're not feeling pressure from me (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4498283#msg4498283) why does my vote and discussion seem to have kicked you back into playing better? Or are you merely trying to take advantage of the fact that Bay12 Mafia seems to primarily vote for whoever is playing the worst the first day, rather than who's been the scummiest?An interesting supposition but it's plain to see why I would be focused on trying to play better. I make no secret of the fact that I always lose. Not 'often lose' or 'usually lose', but with mafia (ignoring one non-mafia Revolution game), I have a 100% lose record over about a dozen games. Understandably, I'm interested in playing better.
Let's test this theory: What is your win condition?I'll have to paraphrase it: I'm a townie and I win when the prince is threatened no longer. For some indeed, asking my wincon may have been enlightening.
Princess griffinpup
NQT: What is the most reliable scumtell?I missed this because you'd asked me two separate RVS questions at different points in the same post (your only post). I know that you were away for a bit and I'm willing to cut you a bit of slack, but this is ridiculous. The most reliable scumtell is when a player is completely unengaged with the game and is uninterested in scumhunting. Your going through the motions griffinpup, ghosting through. Now we've got an extension I want to see some sign that you've actually read the thread and are interested in rooting out the scum.
Post by: webadict on August 16, 2013, 07:02:50 am
Well, I was going to post something about it... but then I realized I was basing this off of a post I don't know how I took wrong... I don't even know. I guess I'm not really paying good enough attention.Yeah, Toaster is definitely scum. I don't buy his faux aggression. But if you wait long enough, he'll turn on his buddy.But, Toaster's definitely on it. After that... I guess I've been pretty lax on who else, and on even making a case on him. I guess I feel like he's just been ignoring me this entire time. It's kinda sad.
How exactly was this determination about Toaster made?
Also, just so we're clear, your scumhunting strategy so far has been:
Vote Toaster for no reason -> Get ignored -> Conclude he's scum
This seems like some pretty limpwilly scumhunting.
Post by: Toaster on August 16, 2013, 02:04:02 pm
Yeah, Toaster is definitely scum. I don't buy his faux aggression. But if you wait long enough, he'll turn on his buddy.
Hm?
Griffinpup:Otto:
Do you like goldfish? (lolololololol)
I almost let your rather late set of RVS questions slide until I hit this one.
Don't you think it is rather late for RVS? Do you truly see nothing else in this game that is worthy of mention by you?
If this is what you mean, then I think the two of us have different definitions of "aggression."
So who do you really suspect, anyway?
Vote Toaster for no reason -> Get ignored -> Conclude he's scum
My policy- for quite some time- toward out of the blue D1 votes with no reason or question attached is to ignore them.
This game's had quite the slow start.
Post by: Tiruin on August 16, 2013, 02:05:43 pm
Extension until 12:00 GMT-8 Tuesday granted.Thank you Vector, I'm really unsure if I'm able in anyway to post today.
Sorry. Personal issues + work. Gloomy day ahead.
Post by: webadict on August 16, 2013, 02:37:11 pm
Wuba:I misread something where I assumed you had gotten angry, only to reread it later when I wasn't posting from my phone...Yeah, Toaster is definitely scum. I don't buy his faux aggression. But if you wait long enough, he'll turn on his buddy.
Hm?
I don't even know.
On that side, though, what would you say if I didn't think anyone was significantly scummy?
Post by: Toaster on August 16, 2013, 02:37:48 pm
Pup's not contributing, at least.
Post by: webadict on August 16, 2013, 02:58:32 pm
I couldn't say anything bad because I'm in the same boat.Hmm... I guess I'm only slightly contributing more than he is. I don't even know, man. What's your take on that Jim character?
Pup's not contributing, at least.
Post by: Toaster on August 16, 2013, 03:05:38 pm
What about you on Leafsnail?
Post by: Toaster on August 16, 2013, 03:08:05 pm
Solifuge:
On another note, Lady Ottofar... why are you so quiet? You were present only long enough to insult and accuse Lady Cado... you even ignored her reply! Concealing yourself behind the mien of an investigator, before skulking away... I must ask you to explain yourself.
I like how you accuse Ottofar of being quiet then contribute no content for three straight days.
Post by: Vector on August 16, 2013, 03:12:05 pm
This game's had quite the slow start.
Sure has.
I figure that's okay, though, as long as you guys don't get bored.
Post by: Solifuge on August 16, 2013, 03:18:05 pm
Solifuge: I like how you accuse Ottofar of being quiet then contribute no content for three straight days.
((Ugh. Moving an hour away will do that, especially when the 6-8 people you were expecting to help you mysteriously vanish. Every night I sit down at a compy to do this, the game ends up Extended, which gives me an excuse to take care of stuff and put off reading and analyzing the last few pages. 80% moved now, though. Which is good.
P.S. I am now shipping Horatio the Butler and the Prince in my head. Princess Quest is totally just a coverup for their forbidden, cross-class romance.))
Post by: webadict on August 16, 2013, 03:51:00 pm
Hmmmm. I don't see any inconsistencies in his Cado case, but Ranger's still somewhat raw and prone to error. I'm not convinced by his case but can't really fault it. Fairly neutral, I guess.The only thing I saw of Leafsnail was when he thought NQT's answers were fine until I pushed him on it. Other than that, I don't see much of him.
What about you on Leafsnail?
Post by: griffinpup on August 16, 2013, 04:25:59 pm
Lurking all day! X_X
Sorry guys, but I've been super busy and every time that I have sat down to do mafia, I've gotten distracted by Cannon Brawl and Grobots. As such, I've been neglecting mafia, and for that I apologize.
Lenglon RP's in a method that's annoying to me and has too much free time.Toaster:What do you understand about players so far?Griffinpup: What is your goal in RVS?To gain an understanding of the other players playing.
You're not made of time.
...
That's about all I got. Haven't spent enough time in this thread.
I guess I know more, but most of it is general ideas on how a player plays, and is hard for me to quantify.
Princess Griffinpup1. Indirectly, yes.
The quality/quantity dichotomy is a bit misleading. The quantity of a post is one of its qualities. No one thinks that vast or frequent mostly-contentless posts are a good thing. 1. Do you think this question has got you any closer to finding scum? 2. Do you think random questions are appropriate near the end of Day 1 or was there nothing that has actually happened in the game to comment on?
2. Notice that that was my first post. I was, and still kind of am, in RVS phase. I had yet to interact with someone yet, and as such didn't have any real reads. And nothing's actually happened in this to actually comment on.
Griffinpup:1. Normally, yes.Otto:
Do you like goldfish? (lolololololol)
I almost let your rather late set of RVS questions slide until I hit this one.
1. Don't you think it is rather late for RVS? 2. Do you truly see nothing else in this game that is worthy of mention by you?
2. Not really. Again, I haven't spent as much time in it as I should. I probably need to do a reread.
3. If you're voting me over that question, at least tell me that you got the joke.
You're not that good at coming up with unique questions, are you?
griffinpup: "What's the purpose of that blank you put towards Ottofar? Asking if one likes goldfish is a serious question where I come from--you can derive one's personality from their appreciation of fish: colors, texture, shape..that."The purpose of that blank that I put towards Otto was mostly a joke. Where I come from, we have a children's book that stars a main character called Otto. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Fish_out_of_Water_(book) (ftp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Fish_out_of_Water_(book)) I thought it was a funny reference...
OK.NQT: What is the most reliable scumtell?I missed this because you'd asked me two separate RVS questions at different points in the same post (your only post). I know that you were away for a bit and I'm willing to cut you a bit of slack, but this is ridiculous. The most reliable scumtell is when a player is completely unengaged with the game and is uninterested in scumhunting. Your going through the motions griffinpup, ghosting through. Now we've got an extension I want to see some sign that you've actually read the thread and are interested in rooting out the scum.
Post by: Leafsnail on August 16, 2013, 10:19:27 pm
Unless it's an open setup like a BM, who's to say there can't be two cops in a game, and one of them is an unaware miller? Anyway, I see what you're getting at now. From my scenario, town would prefer killing one of the two cops, since there's a 50/50 chance between hitting scum for a three-man LYLO, and hitting town for a scum win, as opposed to a 40/60 chance if they vote randomly.It's a pretty reasonable assumption that there aren't two cops in the same game, and that even if there were neither of them are unaware millers (for one thing unaware miller is a terrible role that nobody on Bay 12 tends to use, for another they wouldn't tend to be attached to a power role). I don't know why you're defending this scenario, it makes no sense.
However, from the perspective of a town player in such a situation (five-man LYLO with two claimed cops, Player A calling scum on Player B, Player B counter-claiming and calling scum on Player C), I could conceivably be convinced to lynch Player C, on the grounds that, iff my read of Player B was fairly solid Town, I'd assume that scum are sacrificing their least valuable player as the first cop claim, making Player C slightly more desirable as a lynch candidate.
So, normally I wouldn't, but I won't rule out the possibility entirely.
I'm sorry that that's all you think I've done. It's not, of course, but I'll freely admit I've been tunneling a bit more than I should. I am waiting for Tiruin to get back to me, so hopefully I'll have more than one person to talk too. (Link (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4493186#msg4493186) for easy refrence) But you are right that I can't just ignore everyone else.Uh... huh? I don't understand your last sentence here, and you seem to make a weird switch from passive-aggressiveness to genuine apology halfway through your second sentence. It strikes me as very insincere.
By this point in our discussion I believe NQT is not true town as for scummy
A question about your vote pattern as of late: if you see switching votes rapidly without backing them up as scummy, and now claim that placing a vote and focusing on the player until satisfied is likewise scummy, is it safe to assume you are merely trying to provoke a reaction with your current case?Nope. The vote on NQT was more because his thinking seemed contradictory and flip-floppy, this one is more because it seems like tunneling on someone you're not even all that convinced is scum.
Also did you mean to unvote me, or did you intend to just unvote NQT? I'm assuming the latter, but I dislike making such assumptions.I reordered my post, I meant to vote Griffionday.
Post by: Jim Groovester on August 17, 2013, 01:09:14 am
This game's had quite the slow start.
No kidding.
So what are you going to do about it?
Unvote
What's your basis for unvoting?
I notice you did so after Toaster pointed out your hypocritical vote on Ottofar.
Haven't spent enough time in this thread.
Have you read it all the way through?
If you have, what are your reads?
Post by: Solifuge on August 17, 2013, 02:44:31 am
Unvote
What's your basis for unvoting?
I notice you did so after Toaster pointed out your hypocritical vote on Ottofar.
That accusation was simply meant to encourage Lady Ottofar to speak up... not unlike the Lady Toaster's accusation toward me. Also, I would have rescinded my "suspicion" earlier, but I wasn't ready to speak yet. I needed a chance to think over things, before I had something to say. I admit, I do take my time about such things; I don't like being hasty when it comes to complex and delicate situations such as this.
Tiruin, Solifuge, webadict, the day ends tomorrow. How's your lists of suspects shaping up, and who's on it?
I don't have much of a list yet. I was beginning to suspect Lady Not-Quite-There (what a strange and beautiful name she has!) but her goals here are in line with my own.
At present, I am beginning to suspect Lady Griffonday (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4499430#msg4499430), for her brash insistence on her suspicions despite having only flimsy evidence, and her overly apologetic manner. Almost as though trying to hide her mistakes by calling attention to them, and just moving on. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LampshadeHanging)
Pardon me, Lady Solifuge. I seem to have missed your response in my previous readings.-the most delicate of snips-
The actual question seems to have escaped you. I ask not about one who is confirmed as a jester, but rather one who has claimed such, and when/why you would lynch them. Assume, if you please, that lynching an actual jester will end the game, with only said jester winning, as per classic rules concerning the role.
Ah, I beg your pardon as well. I hadn't realized that you were suggesting that everything would end if such a person was removed. In that case, I can't see that removing such a person would ever be a good idea. However, someone claiming to be such a person would most certainly be trying to exploit circular logic (http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=WIFOM) as a last resort against growing suspicion against them. No one who truly wanted to be removed as such would claim so, or they would risk being believed, and never being removed! They would have to take a more subtle approach, I would think.
That said, what a terrible guest that would make for this gathering. Our Prince may, from time to time, be a... less-than-perfect judge of character, but inviting someone with no interest in him, and who also meant to bring this palace down around us as she left? I simply couldn't see that happening here.
Post by: Griffionday on August 17, 2013, 03:26:50 am
Lady Griffionday quickly walked through the storehouse, eyes skimming quickly over the rich items inside. She stopped at the rugs. While care had been taken to avoid damaging the rugs, they were piled in a slightly disorderly heap, indicating the speed at which they had been moved in to this place. Here she took her time, examining each from the corner she could see. Stopping half-way down the stack she selected a heavy rug of fairly nondescript pattern, just a simple weave throughout what caught her eye was how the weave and combination of colours in the materials played with the light in the room. The rug was a emerald green color under the light that came in from the windows, however the way the material in the shadows appeared to be coloured indicated that the rug would turn a deep sapphire blue when the sun set.
"Horatio, I believe this rug will look excellent in the white drawing room, please take it there when you have the chance. I am sorry for selecting one so far down the pile, but it truly is a marvelous piece, don't you agree? Thank you."
Leaving the task of moving the rug in the more than capable hands of the manservant (who had summoned a couple of the maids of the castle to move the rug), Lady Griffionday left the room to mingle again with her fellow potential brides.
Princess Jim:
Extend.Sorry about that. I'm trying to make two points in the paragraph you quoted. The first is that he chose to interact with me, and yet had dropped the topic as shown in my links.The "confusion" as you call it stems from the fact that I deliberately didn't follow up on your original question in this post (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4493186#msg4493186) to see if you were interested in the point or just trying to ghost your way through the first day. You didn't follow up (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4493324#msg4493324). Not a flawless test of scumminess by any means, but I feel a fairly solid one on how interested you were in the question you posed me. The fact that you didn't let it drop, but instead said "my bad, let me rephrase that" feels like a cover-up.
Wait.
What?
Trying to follow your links and your logic has left me legitimately confused about the point you're trying to make.
The second is that I see the fact that he picked back up the topic after being pressed on it as back-peddling to attempt to look like he cares about his read on me, covering up the fact that he dropped the line of inquiry on me.
Lady NQT:
Fun fact! Attempting to play better is not, in fact, a town tell. Stop using it as a shield.
Lady GriffiondayIf you didn't care about the question, yes. I say that you didn't care because it didn't really seem to interest you, in fact you pretty much allowed me complete control over that question.The fact that you didn't let it drop, but instead said "my bad, let me rephrase that" feels like a cover-up.Sorry, the fact that I admitted my wrongdoing and did what I should have done in the first place is a cover-up? What should I have done? Say, "Well there was a question I was going to ask you, but you know, never mind"?
To start you asked the question, I responded in a fashion that I knew was not the one you intended (town baiting). In the same post I shoot the question back to you, you bring up the fact that it wasn't answered in the fashion you intended and reply using my read of your question. I let the matter lie for a post, you do the same. I bring up the fact that I didn't answer the question you intended, you rephrase your question to be non-ambiguous.
By this point you've let me have complete control over this line of inquiry, indicating that you really don't care about keeping me off balance to test me if I'm scum. This indicates that either you've a complete read on me (which is idiotic at this stage of the game as others have pointed out) or that you in fact are not town.
An interesting supposition but it's plain to see why I would be focused on trying to play better. I make no secret of the fact that I always lose. Not 'often lose' or 'usually lose', but with mafia (ignoring one non-mafia Revolution game), I have a 100% lose record over about a dozen games. Understandably, I'm interested in playing better.Stop trying to ambiguously "play better" then, and figure out how to press people and get legitimate reads from them. Posting more, and talking to more people, are not the same as
For me it was not I'm afraid; your answer tells me nothing. The question itself is a disregard for the unspoken rule that mafia is a game that is based around feeling out the interactions with other players, rather than asking questions that require a key phrase from the role message we receive that scum would not have, such as the wording of the wincon. It is also directly contradictory to the theme that the scum have all the knowledge while the town have the numbers. Various mods take various routes to prevent this: some like Webadict have all their wincons listed, so that the phrase is standardized, others will send non-town aligned players the wording of the town wincon to prevent this from happening. I don't know what our current mod does, but I doubt she would allow such shenanigans either.Let's test this theory: What is your win condition?I'll have to paraphrase it: I'm a townie and I win when the prince is threatened no longer. For some indeed, asking my wincon may have been enlightening.
So no, I'm not impressed that you are capable of recanting the ideas in the town wincon in the same order and emphasis that they are given in pm. I'm merely disappointing that you chose to call this "paraphrasing" when its really just a butchered quote.
Also you've contradicted yourself yet again...
Firstly, please stop directly contradicting yourself in the same post, it's rather poor form.Okay, in the first statement, I should have said 'not town' rather than 'scum'.Obviously, if the player isn't scum you won't draw anything of use out of someone.
-snip-
Neither: asking people's wincons sometimes brings surprising results. Currently, in the Witch game Tiruin spilled out that she was a third-party and wasn't actually directly interested in hunting that game's equivelant of scum.
-snip-
For some indeed, asking my wincon may have been enlightening.
Lady Leafsnail:
Firstly: I hope this clarifies the last sentence:I'm sorry that that's all you think I've done. It's not, of course, but I'll freely admit I've been tunneling a bit more than I should. I am waiting for Tiruin to get back to me, so hopefully I'll have more than one person to talk too. (Link (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4493186#msg4493186) for easy refrence) But you are right that I can't just ignore everyone else.Uh... huh? I don't understand your last sentence here, and you seem to make a weird switch from passive-aggressiveness to genuine apology halfway through your second sentence. It strikes me as very insincere.
By this point in our discussion I believe NQT is not true town as for scummy
EBWOP:Secondly: let me clarify exactly what I'm apologizing for in that second sentence. I've no problem with any part of my case on NQT, what I'm apologizing about is the fact that there where days that it was all I was pursuing, which is slightly sloppy play.
Sorry,By this point in our discussion I believe NQT is not true town as for scummy .Should have beenQuoteBy this point in our discussion I believe NQT is not true town; as for scummy... yeah, I'm willing to call him that.
For quite a while there it was "one more post, then I'll move on." then he made the comment that his wincon as town would be "interesting for some." This is him flaunting the fact that he knows the words of the town wincon which would ONLY happen if they have no bearing on his true wincon.A question about your vote pattern as of late: if you see switching votes rapidly without backing them up as scummy, and now claim that placing a vote and focusing on the player until satisfied is likewise scummy, is it safe to assume you are merely trying to provoke a reaction with your current case?Nope. The vote on NQT was more because his thinking seemed contradictory and flip-floppy, this one is more because it seems like tunneling on someone you're not even all that convinced is scum.
I do actually have a question about your unvote of NQT:
I'll agree that his answer seems completely honest. But couldn't his answer equally well describe a scum trying to vote? He NEVER mentions that Ranger or Jim seemed scummy, just that they were "Strange", "Unjustifiable" and "Didn't seem quite right" all of which are precisely what scum are looking for when making their cases. Why then did his honesty, that has absolutely nothing to do with townyness, sway you so?It's a fair position, but you'll also see that I'll move my votes around a lot as town early day 1 (see the latest BM where as the cop I voted nearly half the other players on day 1). I like to try to interact with as many players as possible to get the broadest possible read until someone particularly scummy comes out. My focus though has been a bit off so I'll readily admit that I haven't been as effective yet as I ought to be. To explain my recent behaviour: I genuinely thought that Cado's reaction was a strange reaction to what I took to just be a dumb RVS vote, but then Jim explained how he was serious which I thought completely unjusifiable, but then I had another look at Cado's initial response and the concern with being tracked didn't seem quite right so I turned back to Cado. I have admittedly been a bit too free with throwing around the vote, but at the same time, I do think it adds a necessary degree of pressure to the questioning.I think you're wrong about pressure in voting (a vote thrown around wildly is a vote that carries no real weight) and indeed some other things, but this answer does somehow seem honest. Unvote.
To summarise: I don't emphatically support Jim's case, but I do believe in using my vote to get answers and changing my mind when new evidence comes to light. This might make me look inconstant, but I think this is better than maintaining an unsupportable vote (which I have seen stubborn town players do in the past).
Lady Solifuge:
At present, I am beginning to suspect Lady Griffonday (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4499430#msg4499430), for her brash insistence on her suspicions despite having only flimsy evidence, and her overly apologetic manner. Almost as though trying to hide her mistakes by calling attention to them, and just moving on. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LampshadeHanging)Are there particular mistakes you'd like me to go over in more detail?
Post by: webadict on August 17, 2013, 06:58:23 am
Post by: webadict on August 17, 2013, 07:48:04 am
I'm in the same boat as Solifuge here. Your points are really only showing that NQT is new Town. Her being voted and telling you that she'll attempt to play better is NOT a scum move. That's, at best, a null move. You don't even seem convinced she's scum in the least. Even just touches small parts, here's some issues:
- Contradictions that didn't really happen or are stretched to the very point of breaking. Example:
Lady NQT:This is NOT a contradiction. It's also a blatant rules violation, but that doesn't matter right now (what is with everyone trying to cheat these days?) It can be assumed that scum contains the mafia and third parties. Town would have you not learn anything from such a question, but her example is, of course, Town.
Firstly, please stop directly contradicting yourself in the same post, it's rather poor form.Obviously, if the player isn't scum you won't draw anything of use out of someone.
-snip-
Neither: asking people's wincons sometimes brings surprising results. Currently, in the Witch game Tiruin spilled out that she was a third-party and wasn't actually directly interested in hunting that game's equivelant of scum.
- Mediocre, at worst, Townplay = Scumplay no matter what has happened. Example:
So, if we're going for the same tests of scummitude here, just quickly, you ACTIVELY AVOIDED A QUESTION. This, of course, proves you're scum, as it would be considered bad Townplay. Or, is it different if you purposefully miss a question versus accidentally miss a question? But, hey, is that poor play or just scumminess?Poor town play is not a scum tell. Got it.Get back to you in what fashion? If you meant for me to try again to answer your question again why did you not bring this up when you next talked to me here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4493324#msg4493324)? Possibly you should have pursued that inquiry at all.I'm not sure where your misunderstanding here lies. I asked you an ambiguous question, you answered the question one way, I implied you'd not answered the way I'd intended you to answer, you asked me why I didn't ask me the question again, then I asked the question again freely admitting that I should have reasked it sooner. I didn't reask it sooner because my focus on the game was not sufficiently strong. This isn't a scum-tell, it's just me being distracted. Now I'm more on the ball, I'm determined not to let things get to Great Temple levels where I was town but utterly ineffectual.
The "confusion" as you call it stems from the fact that I deliberately didn't follow up on your original question in this post (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4493186#msg4493186) to see if you were interested in the point or just trying to ghost your way through the first day. You didn't follow up (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4493324#msg4493324). Not a flawless test of scumminess by any means, but I feel a fairly solid one on how interested you were in the question you posed me. The fact that you didn't let it drop, but instead said "my bad, let me rephrase that" feels like a cover-up.
On that note why are you so focused on playing better now? If you're not feeling pressure from me (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4498283#msg4498283) why does my vote and discussion seem to have kicked you back into playing better? Or are you merely trying to take advantage of the fact that Bay12 Mafia seems to primarily vote for whoever is playing the worst the first day, rather than who's been the scummiest?
Let me tell you something about that second part, while I'm here. You see, nobody WANTS to be voted. That's why you usually play as much as you do. If you didn't play, you'd be lynched. So, you have to play a certain amount to avoid that. Now, if you're playing that much, and people STILL vote you, then you're playing to remove those votes. You have to play better than what you were playing before, because it clearly wasn't good enough. People found something you were doing to be bad, so you either improve yourself or you find a better case. Both of these show that NQT is correct in improving her play. I can attest to having to play better or get lynched multiple times. This is a terrible point to make, and please remember that for the next time you play, because you have a fairly solid 98+% chance of being lynched.
- You managed to somehow prove she was town through your own fault. Example: SHE HAS THE TOWN WINCON.
This is, by far, the worst mistake you could've made. I'm not even sure if you realize this. The people that are voting you have seen the wincon. They know it's their own. I know it's my own. We're confused as to what you don't see in it. The worst part is that she could've easily asked Vector, "What's the Town wincon?" and gotten it, but, either way, you fell straight into it. You NEVER ask a question like that, one, because it breaks the rules, and two, because if she's your target, you just made yourself look like a fool. NEVER ask a question that only Town should be able to answer and then continue pursuin the target, even if scum could answer the question.
Your best bet right now is to reexamine your case on NQT. Nothing in it strikes me as scummy. If I can attribute all of it to meh townplay, then it's a terrible case. And if you are still insisting your case when several people have pointed out that it's terrible, then you're going to look foolish when these people vote against you. There are a few reasons to stick to your guns, but there are just as many reasons to drop them, and this is one of the drop it cases.
Post by: Griffionday on August 17, 2013, 01:46:12 pm
Why did neither of you bring any of this up when I answered the exact same question (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4496496#msg4496496)? Is it because Lady NQT chose to include the key word "threatened" as well as keeping the order of his answer identical to the one in the pm?
I await your response to these questions, please do so at your earliest convenience.
Post by: Vector on August 17, 2013, 03:04:54 pm
Okami no Rei
Leafsnail
Tiruin
Lenglon
Griffinpup - NotQuiteThere, Toaster
RangerCado - JimGroovester, Ottofar,
Griffionday - Solifuge, Webadict, Leafsnail
notquitethere - Okami no Rei, Griffionday, RangerCado
Solifuge
Jim Groovester
Ottofar
Toaster
Webadict
Not voting - Lenglon, Tiruin, griffinpup
MOD NOTE: Lenglon, NQT, ONR, Ottofar, and RangerCado all really need to post more. I will be sending PMs out soon.
Day end is scheduled for Tuesday at 12:00 (-8 GMT). Five requests for extension required. Two more extensions available.
Post by: Solifuge on August 17, 2013, 04:15:12 pm
Ladies Solifuge and Webadict:
Why did neither of you bring any of this up when I answered the exact same question (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4496496#msg4496496)? Is it because Lady NQT chose to include the key word "threatened" as well as keeping the order of his answer identical to the one in the pm?
I await your response to these questions, please do so at your earliest convenience.
I'm afraid I don't understand what you're trying to say. What is your point?
Moreover, am I to assume you have no response to my accusations, nor those of Lady Webadict then? No defense to offer? No additional reasoning for your weak, irrational, and singleminded attack on Lady Not-Quite-There? Or will you just attempt to shift discussion elsewhere once more?
Post by: Griffionday on August 17, 2013, 05:08:56 pm
My point to you with that question was merely to ask what made Lady Not-Quite-There's response to the question of what our win-conditions was so much more clear than mine.Ladies Solifuge and Webadict:
Why did neither of you bring any of this up when I answered the exact same question (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4496496#msg4496496)? Is it because Lady NQT chose to include the key word "threatened" as well as keeping the order of his answer identical to the one in the pm?
I await your response to these questions, please do so at your earliest convenience.
I'm afraid I don't understand what you're trying to say. What is your point?
Moreover, am I to assume you have no response to my accusations, nor those of Lady Webadict then? No defense to offer?
You made two accusations towards me I believe? (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4503483#msg4503483)
The first is insisting on my suspicions despite having only flimsy evidence: I'm pretty sure I've a much stronger case now, but I need her to respond before I can be sure.
The second is that I was being overly apologetic: I'm not quite sure what you're referring to with this statement, so I'm afraid I can't defend myself against it. If you'd like to give me examples of what you're referring to I'd be perfectly happy to give you my reasoning behind what you're seeing as apologies.
As for Lady Webadict, I'm afraid I've no further response until she answers my question. I find it incredibly odd that she would neglect to mention a "blatant rule violation", that happened over three days ago, until she can use the results of it to tear a related case to sheds. As such I want to know why she's choosing now to mention this.
No additional reasoning for your weak, irrational, and singleminded attack on Lady Not-Quite-There? Or will you just attempt to shift discussion elsewhere once more?Not right now no, I need to see Lady NQT before I can finish my case, and as we've 36 hours thanks to the extension I feel that I can wait rather than providing you with a half-baked case.
Post by: griffinpup on August 17, 2013, 05:37:44 pm
You have absolutely no defense against Web's accusations until he answers your one question?
Post by: RangerCado on August 17, 2013, 05:57:37 pm
Post by: webadict on August 17, 2013, 07:35:13 pm
Ladies Solifuge and Webadict:Because I wasn't paying that much attention. Did you really need this answer, or am I missing something?
Why did neither of you bring any of this up when I answered the exact same question (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4496496#msg4496496)? Is it because Lady NQT chose to include the key word "threatened" as well as keeping the order of his answer identical to the one in the pm?
And yes. She has hers worded carefully. It was a stupid question to even ask. Literally, tell me what you could learn? Nothing. You only let other people believe she is town. Yours is worded poorly, so what am I supposed to glean from it? But, who cares? It's against the rules.
My point to you with that question was merely to ask what made Lady Not-Quite-There's response to the question of what our win-conditions was so much more clear than mine.You really don't have a good case, girl. I'm trying to help you out here. I'm not just telling you this just because. I'm telling you this so that your case can make as much sense to the rest of us as it does to you! Either make it stronger or find a better one. You're mistaken in assuming that being voted shouldn't make you try harder. It really should be a clue that your case is bad or that your actions are bad.
You made two accusations towards me I believe? (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4503483#msg4503483)
The first is insisting on my suspicions despite having only flimsy evidence: I'm pretty sure I've a much stronger case now, but I need her to respond before I can be sure.
The second is that I was being overly apologetic: I'm not quite sure what you're referring to with this statement, so I'm afraid I can't defend myself against it. If you'd like to give me examples of what you're referring to I'd be perfectly happy to give you my reasoning behind what you're seeing as apologies.
As for Lady Webadict, I'm afraid I've no further response until she answers my question. I find it incredibly odd that she would neglect to mention a "blatant rule violation", that happened over three days ago, until she can use the results of it to tear a related case to sheds. As such I want to know why she's choosing now to mention this.
You can find it odd as you want, but this really is the first time I saw it. I know, it might seem odd that an experienced player like me doesn't really pay that much attention to things, but I actually wasn't all too invested in this game. Mostly because I'm used to players bringing me into the game by asking me a variety of questions, so if I've got nothing to talk about, I lose interest.
On the rule thing, if I had seen it earlier, I would've done something about it earlier. It's poor form to do these things. It's a form of meta-gaming that completely ruins the fun of the game. It's like that weird hashing thing someone came up with to role claim. It's just like... what's the point? If I post my role into the game, wow, how fun is that? We're not trying to find scum based on the mod's PMs. We're supposed to find it based on our perceptions, skills, and luck. That's the game. I just don't even know why you'd want to find scum that way. It's just so boring. But, this is just a rant, and it doesn't matter. The point is that I didn't notice it.
Post by: Leafsnail on August 17, 2013, 07:46:50 pm
Secondly: let me clarify exactly what I'm apologizing for in that second sentence. I've no problem with any part of my case on NQT, what I'm apologizing about is the fact that there where days that it was all I was pursuing, which is slightly sloppy play.Sure. But the first sentence and the first half of the second sentence are passive aggressive - "I am sorry that you are wrong". It's like you're trying to both stand your ground and concede that you were wrong at the same time.
For quite a while there it was "one more post, then I'll move on." then he made the comment that his wincon as town would be "interesting for some." This is him flaunting the fact that he knows the words of the town wincon which would ONLY happen if they have no bearing on his true wincon.I'm not sure I follow. What do you mean by this?
I'll agree that his answer seems completely honest. But couldn't his answer equally well describe a scum trying to vote? He NEVER mentions that Ranger or Jim seemed scummy, just that they were "Strange", "Unjustifiable" and "Didn't seem quite right" all of which are precisely what scum are looking for when making their cases. Why then did his honesty, that has absolutely nothing to do with townyness, sway you so?Strange or unjustifiable things are worth voting for as town. It's not conclusive, but generally a mafia member who's just voting whoever seems like the best target at the time (which was, to some degree, my original accusation) cannot come up with a clear explanation for their actions.
Post by: Griffionday on August 18, 2013, 03:03:15 am
Griffionday:No. The viciousness in his post surprised me, and I needed him to clarify where he was coming from. Considering the way he was leveling complaints against me that would have been equally valid against NQT from day one of the game and had been a topic of many of my posts to NQT (Webadict even quoted a sentence by NQT detailing why the question was useful) while at the same time not calling NQT out on any of the things he had an issue with, I had major suspicions of chainsawing. His reply to my question somewhat assuaged my concerns on that front though.
You have absolutely no defense against Web's accusations until he answers your one question?
Leafsnail:
Which is exactly what was trying to do. I'm convinced that NQT is scum, and as such I've no reason to unvote him, on the other hand I was conceding the point that my play with regards to tunneling was wrong.Secondly: let me clarify exactly what I'm apologizing for in that second sentence. I've no problem with any part of my case on NQT, what I'm apologizing about is the fact that there where days that it was all I was pursuing, which is slightly sloppy play.Sure. But the first sentence and the first half of the second sentence are passive aggressive - "I am sorry that you are wrong". It's like you're trying to both stand your ground and concede that you were wrong at the same time.
It relates to what he had said about the question:For quite a while there it was "one more post, then I'll move on." then he made the comment that his wincon as town would be "interesting for some." This is him flaunting the fact that he knows the words of the town wincon which would ONLY happen if they have no bearing on his true wincon.I'm not sure I follow. What do you mean by this?
If one is town, the question can be used to compare wincons, if one doesn't have key words (like mine didn't) then one can and should press further or at least be suspicious of a player. During his post after I had replied with what my wincon was, his one question was: "Have you talked to everyone else yet?" (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4496538#msg4496538) No pressure, no suspicion, just "get out of my face".
On the other hand if one is scum and has the town wincon, then the question has a second purpose when asked to noobs (such as myself), quite often a RVS question will be reversed at a player (like I did, twice actually) giving one an opportunity to provide the buzz-words that make one sound town. This is what happened.
Webadict:
Because I wasn't paying that much attention. Did you really need this answer, or am I missing something?You're not missing anything I did actually need that answer, as I mentioned to Griffinpup my reason for asking the question to you was because I was suspicious of chainsawing.
- Contradictions that didn't really happen or are stretched to the very point of breaking. Example:-snip-This is NOT a contradiction. It's also a blatant rules violation, but that doesn't matter right now (what is with everyone trying to cheat these days?) It can be assumed that scum contains the mafia and third parties. Town would have you not learn anything from such a question, but her example is, of course, Town.
The last sentence here confuses me.
You are right; however, in that that contradiction was not the strongest. However, what about her statement that her statement of the town wincon "For some indeed, asking my wincon may have been enlightening." (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4499944#msg4499944) As far as I can tell this statement is either a direct contradiction with her original premise (that it's only interesting if the question happens to hit non town), or an accusation that my statement of the wincon was a guess. As he did not in any way suggest the latter in either of his posts since I answered his question, I have to assume it's the first.
So, if we're going for the same tests of scummitude here, just quickly, you ACTIVELY AVOIDED A QUESTION. This, of course, proves you're scum, as it would be considered bad Townplay. Or, is it different if you purposefully miss a question versus accidentally miss a question? But, hey, is that poor play or just scumminess?Do you seriously think I don't consider actively avoiding questions fairly blatantly scummy? My entire point was that NQT didn't choose to press me on these points ever. If as he said, I'm not pressuring him at all why would he choose to ignore this? He's been claiming to "play better" but ignoring the scum-tells I've been dropping for him, refusing to engage with someone who has voted for him. This crosses the line from "meh" town play (see all our lurkers) to activly bad town play.
- You managed to somehow prove she was town through your own fault. Example: SHE HAS THE TOWN WINCON.I do realize it now actually. I got overly caught up in my "being clever" and leaving scum-tells that he should have seen to realize that before I pressed post. Hence why I've not unvoted him; from my previous reads I had him painted as scum, but now I've given him an iron-clad alibi. It's up to me to break the alibi, and not let him win on the strength of it alone. Please at the very least tell me that your words of "even if scum could answer the question." mean that you're aware that his claim does not guarantee his being town.
This is, by far, the worst mistake you could've made. I'm not even sure if you realize this. The people that are voting you have seen the wincon. They know it's their own. I know it's my own. We're confused as to what you don't see in it. The worst part is that she could've easily asked Vector, "What's the Town wincon?" and gotten it, but, either way, you fell straight into it. You NEVER ask a question like that, one, because it breaks the rules, and two, because if she's your target, you just made yourself look like a fool. NEVER ask a question that only Town should be able to answer and then continue pursuin the target, even if scum could answer the question.
Your best bet right now is to reexamine your case on NQT. Nothing in it strikes me as scummy. If I can attribute all of it to meh townplay, then it's a terrible case. And if you are still insisting your case when several people have pointed out that it's terrible, then you're going to look foolish when these people vote against you. There are a few reasons to stick to your guns, but there are just as many reasons to drop them, and this is one of the drop it cases.I have, and I will again when he responds to my accusations. Like I said, seeing as I was the person who gave him the opportunity to give himself a near perfect alibi, it's up to me to at the very least crack it. Or else I could very well have cost you the game, couldn't I have?
Post by: Jim Groovester on August 18, 2013, 05:11:31 am
*sigh* I hate this. Sorry everyone but Replacement Request... I don't feel to cut out to play Mafia... and I'm getting distracted to easily. Sorry everyone, hope the game goes well.
If you did this in response to the pressure I was putting on you, well, I don't approve.
Handling difficult pressure is a part of the game, after all. Not a pleasant one by any means, but still an important one.
Forsooth milady nevermore yap yap I'm being proper
Could you spare me the in-character speak? It makes it difficult to figure out what point you're trying to make.
At present, I am beginning to suspect Lady Griffonday (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4499430#msg4499430), for her brash insistence on her suspicions despite having only flimsy evidence, and her overly apologetic manner.
How does the post you linked relate to the point you're trying to make?
See my point about making it difficult to understand what the fudge you're getting at by using in-character speak.
Sorry about that. I'm trying to make two points in the paragraph you quoted. The first is that he chose to interact with me, and yet had dropped the topic as shown in my links.
How about, you give me a fucking quote, or even better, as many fucking quotes as it takes, because I still don't understand what the fuck point you're trying to make.
To start you asked the question, I responded in a fashion that I knew was not the one you intended (town baiting). In the same post I shoot the question back to you, you bring up the fact that it wasn't answered in the fashion you intended and reply using my read of your question. I let the matter lie for a post, you do the same. I bring up the fact that I didn't answer the question you intended, you rephrase your question to be non-ambiguous.
Of course it takes you responding to somebody else besides me before I finally get a foggy fucking clue about what you're getting at. No need to dig up the quotes now, I'm finally up to speed with the point you were making.
So if your accounting of the events is accurate, and I see no reason to dispute, I don't really see any fault with NQT at all. He pointed out you did not respond to his question as intended, like he should have, and then you decide to be cagey for no good reason and not answer him, like you should not have.
Why do you think he decided to not follow up with you, instead of him just forgetting about it?
Fun fact! Attempting to play better is not, in fact, a town tell. Stop using it as a shield.
WHERE
And I don't want a goddamned link, I want a quote to a specific location.
"Have you talked to everyone else yet?" (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4496538#msg4496538)
YOU LINK TO THIS LIKE EVERYBODY KNOWS WHAT TO LOOK FOR
For me it was not I'm afraid; your answer tells me nothing. The question itself is a disregard for the unspoken rule that mafia is a game that is based around feeling out the interactions with other players, rather than asking questions that require a key phrase from the role message we receive that scum would not have, such as the wording of the wincon. It is also directly contradictory to the theme that the scum have all the knowledge while the town have the numbers. Various mods take various routes to prevent this: some like Webadict have all their wincons listed, so that the phrase is standardized, others will send non-town aligned players the wording of the town wincon to prevent this from happening. I don't know what our current mod does, but I doubt she would allow such shenanigans either.
So no, I'm not impressed that you are capable of recanting the ideas in the town wincon in the same order and emphasis that they are given in pm. I'm merely disappointing that you chose to call this "paraphrasing" when its really just a butchered quote.
This is a very elaborate way to say absolutely nothing.
Filling space, brah. You're great at it. I wonder, is your RP worth reading or is it more useless space filling?
I just read it, nope. Thank you for wasting my time.
By the way, filling space is not a virtue, and I consider it a scummy quality.
Post by: notquitethere on August 18, 2013, 06:33:30 am
Fun fact! Attempting to play better is not, in fact, a town tell. Stop using it as a shield.I'm sorry, I wasn't aware that it was any kind of tell. Everyone, especially if they're under pressure, has an incentive to play better regardless of alignment.
If you didn't care about the question, yes. I say that you didn't care because it didn't really seem to interest you, in fact you pretty much allowed me complete control over that question.Well it did interest me, hence why I got back to it later. But here I feel we're talking about talking about talking and the original issue and the motivations surrounding it have become somewhat obscured. What you seem to be saying here is that answering someone's enquiries (and it's not as if I haven't asked questions in return) is proof of scumhood. What you are doing here is starting with a prejudice which you then try to rationalise until it becomes a universal rule. Ask yourself, could a town player conceivably act in the way I have seen this princess act?
To start you asked the question, I responded in a fashion that I knew was not the one you intended (town baiting). In the same post I shoot the question back to you, you bring up the fact that it wasn't answered in the fashion you intended and reply using my read of your question. I let the matter lie for a post, you do the same. I bring up the fact that I didn't answer the question you intended, you rephrase your question to be non-ambiguous.
By this point you've let me have complete control over this line of inquiry, indicating that you really don't care about keeping me off balance to test me if I'm scum. This indicates that either you've a complete read on me (which is idiotic at this stage of the game as others have pointed out) or that you in fact are not town.
For me it was not I'm afraid; your answer tells me nothing. The question itself is a disregard for the unspoken rule that mafia is a game that is based around feeling out the interactions with other players, rather than asking questions that require a key phrase from the role message we receive that scum would not have, such as the wording of the wincon. It is also directly contradictory to the theme that the scum have all the knowledge while the town have the numbers. Various mods take various routes to prevent this: some like Webadict have all their wincons listed, so that the phrase is standardized, others will send non-town aligned players the wording of the town wincon to prevent this from happening. I don't know what our current mod does, but I doubt she would allow such shenanigans either.If this wasn't the answer you were expecting I'm not sure what else I can do for you. It appears as if you've decided that I'm scum and are getting annoyed when I don't self-incriminate enough. Since you've already prejudged my case, why not simply say so? You're not fooling anyone with this charade. Tell me, what answer would have satisfied you that I was town?
So no, I'm not impressed that you are capable of recanting the ideas in the town wincon in the same order and emphasis that they are given in pm. I'm merely disappointing that you chose to call this "paraphrasing" when its really just a butchered quote.
Also you've contradicted yourself yet again...The first and last statements were made in a different context to one another. Pressuring a town player won't draw out any valid scum-tells (because, by definition, a scum-tell is only valid if it can only be drawn out of a scum player). Asking a wincon is different to pressuring, and as I've now come to see is against the spirit of the game and is not something I'll do in any future game. This said, asking a wincon can provide useful information (sometimes players use the opportunity to make a claim) regardless of alignment. You're supposed contradiction here rests on a conflation between 'scum-inditing-information' and 'useful-information', which are often but not always the same.Firstly, please stop directly contradicting yourself in the same post, it's rather poor form.Okay, in the first statement, I should have said 'not town' rather than 'scum'.Obviously, if the player isn't scum you won't draw anything of use out of someone.
-snip-
Neither: asking people's wincons sometimes brings surprising results. Currently, in the Witch game Tiruin spilled out that she was a third-party and wasn't actually directly interested in hunting that game's equivelant of scum.
-snip-
For some indeed, asking my wincon may have been enlightening.
Princess Okami
Still waiting on that case, m'lady. I know you're stretched between lots of games, but three posts with actual content in a week isn't great.
Vektor— Do players up for replacement automatically unvote? Out of curiosity there anything we've gleaned about the Prince's family since we've been here?
Lenglon, Tiruin, griffinpup— the vote is the weapon of the true princess. It's the sharpened point to their pressuring blades. Not voting at all after a week belies a fear of drawing attention. It seems to suggest that you are not concerned with lynching as you have other powers at your disposal, or that a mislynch is gathering nicely without your intervention. Now I know Lady griffinpup has been away, but what's the excuse of the rest of you princesses?
Post by: webadict on August 18, 2013, 07:10:28 am
NQT is not proven Town. That's not what everyone's saying. In fact, we know full well she's not even close to confirmed. It's merely a psychological thing. If she does anything scummy, we'll certainly do something about it.
I just... It's like you're digging your own grave. I'm trying to take away your shovel, and then you insist on using your bare hands.
Not only that, but the more you push it, the more Town you make NQT look. So, you're making your own job of trying to convince us even harder. Seriously, please just listen! What is it that you seem to think is suspicious? We do not see it. At all. Find something concrete.
Let me quickly just show you what's wrong with your last post.
Why would I chainsaw defend NQT? She's doing just fine by letting you talk.
Trying to drop scumtells to see if people will latch on is considered stupid play, especially since everyone else is latching on to those now, and you've got nothing to show for it.
NQT was referring to those being scum, since they wouldn't have her wincon, and therefore it's enlightening to those some.
Your not unvoting is not a testament to some sort of endurance mode where you HAVE to prove NQT as scum. You're not bringing anything new to the discussion, and the things you have already brought are being shot down left and right.
Seriously, girl. I just don't know why you're still going with this. I'm actually trying to help you, but you're not listening.
Post by: Vector on August 18, 2013, 08:39:21 am
Yes, Cado unvoted, and you'll get info on the Prince's family with the votecount.
Post by: Tiruin on August 18, 2013, 08:57:51 am
Tiruin quietly sips a glass of orange juice while the debate goes on.
Preparing a long-winded and concise speech.
"...I see something strange back there."
Post by: Dariush on August 18, 2013, 09:08:26 am
Tropical storm problems + university problems + being cold and wet everyday doesn't help♪ Every day I'm sufferin' ♪
Post by: zombie urist on August 18, 2013, 11:09:24 am
Post by: Jim Groovester on August 18, 2013, 04:13:20 pm
Post by: webadict on August 18, 2013, 04:36:18 pm
WUBADUB, why are you trying to help Griffionday instead of, oh, let's say, lynch him/her with extreme prejudice? That's where your vote is, anyway.Because if she can actually make an efficient case, then even in death, she contributed something. And if she's scum, then she's doing a poor job of that too. The whole point is that she should do better, regardless of her alignment, she shouldn't continue doing things that make her look bad.
To shove with full force is foolish. I am indeed saying she is the most optimal candidate to lynch, but that does not mean she has no chance of fighting back. Do you not believe that there's enough pressure on her?
Is there some sort of reason we cannot allow others the chance to redeem themselves? That's the sort of reasoning scum would use to simply tunnel any mistake made into oblivion. And the point isn't to continually pursue someone until they die. That's following the same faulty reasoning Griffionday is using, Jim. The point is that she's being given a warning: Do better or prepare to be lynched. I am prepared to lynch her, but I am still giving her a chance. Is there anything wrong with that?
Post by: Leafsnail on August 18, 2013, 07:01:04 pm
Still not gettin other point, NQT is scum with town wincon??
Post by: webadict on August 18, 2013, 07:12:17 pm
PFP @Griffionday: as far as I can tell your new answer on the aggressive apology contradicts your old one. Previously you said you weren't only paying attention to him, now you're saying you were but it's ok because he's scum.Er... That's not a good reason... At all. What is up with you, Leafsnail?
Still not gettin other point, NQT is scum with town wincon??
Post by: Leafsnail on August 18, 2013, 07:22:42 pm
Post by: zombie urist on August 18, 2013, 07:42:22 pm
I'll reread the thread sometime, then post sometime later.
Post by: webadict on August 18, 2013, 07:45:07 pm
Huh?One, your post is horribly worded. Two, what is wrong with scum with town wincon?
Post by: notquitethere on August 18, 2013, 07:49:46 pm
I'm replacing RangerCado.Good to hear. When you do post, a little word on what you thought of Ranger's play or cases would be good.
I'll reread the thread sometime, then post sometime later.
Post by: webadict on August 18, 2013, 08:02:17 pm
Sagacious Princess ZUWhy? That player no longer exists. Judging a player he's replacing does what for us?I'm replacing RangerCado.Good to hear. When you do post, a little word on what you thought of Ranger's play or cases would be good.
I'll reread the thread sometime, then post sometime later.
Post by: notquitethere on August 18, 2013, 08:08:08 pm
Why? That player no longer exists. Judging a player he's replacing does what for us?When someone replaces in, it's important to know if they stand by their predecessors actions. If they don't, then we can take from that that the previous cases were idiosyncratic to the player filling the slot. If they do stand by the previous acts, then we can more easily attribute the cases pursued by both players of a slot as flowing from that slot's specific alignment. And if it's a dodgy case then we have greater grounds for judging the replacement player.
Post by: Leafsnail on August 18, 2013, 08:13:55 pm
Post by: Leafsnail on August 18, 2013, 08:16:34 pm
Post by: webadict on August 18, 2013, 08:21:58 pm
The same could be said of any player's actions then, and not merely the predecessor's. Nothing about that case is unique to the player replacing.Why? That player no longer exists. Judging a player he's replacing does what for us?When someone replaces in, it's important to know if they stand by their predecessors actions. If they don't, then we can take from that that the previous cases were idiosyncratic to the player filling the slot. If they do stand by the previous acts, then we can more easily attribute the cases pursued by both players of a slot as flowing from that slot's specific alignment. And if it's a dodgy case then we have greater grounds for judging the replacement player.
Like, "NQT knows the town wincon, which proves that he is a mafia member who knows the town wincon"That's just a stupid argument on his part. He fell into that trap by himself. However, the point is that even scum can know the Town's wincon, so it proves nothing. As proof that I can easily obtain the wincon of Town:
Vector: What is the Town's wincon verbatim?
That being said, his case is still terrible, and I think he should really rethink it.
Post by: webadict on August 18, 2013, 08:28:51 pm
Post by: notquitethere on August 18, 2013, 11:33:48 pm
Post by: zombie urist on August 18, 2013, 11:41:42 pm
Good to hear. When you do post, a little word on what you thought of Ranger's play or cases would be good.No comment. I seem to remember you asking questions like this every game I've replaced into (which you also played) and the answer has always been the same.
Griffionday: give me a short summary of your posts plz.
"...I see something strange back there."What's strange back where?
Does anyone else have a flavor name? Is it a historic figure?
Post by: notquitethere on August 19, 2013, 12:21:25 am
No comment. I seem to remember you asking questions like this every game I've replaced into (which you also played) and the answer has always been the same.I tried to verify this claim and I noticed in Magic Mafia you replaced in for Deathsword and were asked (not by me this time) about your predecessor and you said it'd be WIFOM to comment (which is untrue: you could at the least say whether you agree/disagree).
You played town that game, so I'm willing to cut you a bit of meta-slack. However, you did also get yourself lynched as town by mostly town-players, so I can't say much for your track record of not appearing scummy. Your two word responses come across as lazy scum refusal to engage with the game, even when they're just lazy town refusal.
I'm going to assume that you have no comment because you haven't bothered to form an opinion on RC's play and all future cases from you will stem from that same place of ignorance. I remain, however, open to being surprised.
Give me a reason why it would be a good idea to tell you my name or history.
Post by: webadict on August 19, 2013, 06:29:39 am
Post by: Toaster on August 19, 2013, 09:29:25 am
So, if we're going for the same tests of scummitude here, just quickly, you ACTIVELY AVOIDED A QUESTION. This, of course, proves you're scum, as it would be considered bad Townplay. Or, is it different if you purposefully miss a question versus accidentally miss a question? But, hey, is that poor play or just scumminess?Do you seriously think I don't consider actively avoiding questions fairly blatantly scummy? My entire point was that NQT didn't choose to press me on these points ever. If as he said, I'm not pressuring him at all why would he choose to ignore this? He's been claiming to "play better" but ignoring the scum-tells I've been dropping for him, refusing to engage with someone who has voted for him. This crosses the line from "meh" town play (see all our lurkers) to activly bad town play.
Wait, what?
Are you saying you're dropping scum tells on purpose for him and you're expecting him to go after you on them, or he's not town? Please tell me I'm misreading this, because as such it makes no damn sense.
Griffinpup:
I do realize it now actually. I got overly caught up in my "being clever" and leaving scum-tells that he should have seen to realize that before I pressed post. Hence why I've not unvoted him; from my previous reads I had him painted as scum, but now I've given him an iron-clad alibi. It's up to me to break the alibi, and not let him win on the strength of it alone. Please at the very least tell me that your words of "even if scum could answer the question." mean that you're aware that his claim does not guarantee his being town.
Also here, and I don't know what you're saying about giving him an alibi then expecting to break it or not. So... do you think he is town or not?
I agree with Jim that clarity is a good thing.
Griffinpup:
Griffinpup:1. Normally, yes.Otto:
Do you like goldfish? (lolololololol)
I almost let your rather late set of RVS questions slide until I hit this one.
1. Don't you think it is rather late for RVS? 2. Do you truly see nothing else in this game that is worthy of mention by you?
2. Not really. Again, I haven't spent as much time in it as I should. I probably need to do a reread.
3. If you're voting me over that question, at least tell me that you got the joke.
You're not that good at coming up with unique questions, are you?
1. And yet you do it anyway.
2. You should. In fact, by this point you've had plenty of time to do so. What are your results?
3. It was more of a vote to get your attention. Since you've not really accused anyone of anything this entire game (this hardly counts (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4506003#msg4506003)), I must conclude that you don't care who gets lynched. This is not a townie trait.
Post by: Okami No Rei on August 19, 2013, 11:14:29 am
Post by: Ottofar on August 19, 2013, 03:01:39 pm
Ugh. I'm terribly, deeply sorry about this.
Post by: Tiruin on August 19, 2013, 06:59:57 pm
That's me foreshadowing my post! Yay!...Which will be posted later in the day because I have it in a USB, and I've misplaced it in school."...I see something strange back there."What's strange back where?
Does anyone else have a flavor name? Is it a historic figure?
...Miss Zu: "I do have a name, of course. As for me saying if I'm a historic figure, I take that as an insult but discard it to semantics. I'm not yet dead to be a historic figure, though the thought is amusing, thank you very much.
"Care to explain that subtle flavorfishing, or in other words, that certain curiosity there?
"...And you don't address it with emphasis (bold)?"
Madam Lenglon
Given your last post (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4496002#msg4496002) [same problems like me? :P] I'll have to ask you something that I usually see the case is, in people doing RP.
Why do you RP so much, despite getting flak for it in, oh, just about every single game you've RP'd in?Pup: because it's fun, also, it's an extra communication channel that allows more depth of emotion and reasoning than straight text alone, particularly when someone RPs back in response.
"How do you see scumhunting communication through that method? Emotional cues and tone differences sometimes make their appearance in a different way to people, and in the context of Mafia, it may also be easily misinterpreted.
"What do you think is the essence (why it is asked) behind people saying 'RP'ing can be used as a diversion'?"
Spoiler: OOC (click to show/hide)
Webadict
...Err, 'as proof'?Like, "NQT knows the town wincon, which proves that he is a mafia member who knows the town wincon"That's just a stupid argument on his part. He fell into that trap by himself. However, the point is that even scum can know the Town's wincon, so it proves nothing. As proof that I can easily obtain the wincon of Town:
Vector: What is the Town's wincon verbatim?
> Asks for obtaining...
That's not proof until evidence is given. I think I'm missing the context of all this and it stems from NQT anyway. Do you exactly know what the 'town wincon' is, by the way, Web?
Prince Vector: Is there a rule on wincon claims and such? Like those in other mafias? (I think what came to mind was GlyphGryph's last cybrid mafia? Or if not, then I guess in LNCP's ongoing WC mafia in a way of 'quoting the mod'...thing)
See-edit: I see where NQT poked that.
He paraphrased it. The question is continued here. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4503532;topicseen#msg4503532) And by that, (well, only judging from that, still re-reading here.) I'm really suspicious about that point you're poking at ma'am Web.
Why are you, and probably Miss Leafsnail debating on him being confirmed or not given that vague case?
Griffionday: Why ask that question anyway (@NQT--the thing I linked to; wincon)? What was your explanation afterwards talking about and what was it referring to?
(s)He directly answered the question, did (s)he not?
Dariush
Why aren't you playing. :ITropical storm problems + university problems + being cold and wet everyday doesn't help♪ Every day I'm sufferin' ♪
Post by: Vector on August 19, 2013, 08:34:09 pm
Prince Vector: Is there a rule on wincon claims and such? Like those in other mafias? (I think what came to mind was GlyphGryph's last cybrid mafia? Or if not, then I guess in LNCP's ongoing WC mafia in a way of 'quoting the mod'...thing)
It's frowned on, to be sure.
Vector: What is the Town's wincon verbatim?
Why, I couldn't tell you that!
Naw, just fooling: "You are town. You win when all threats to the Prince are gone."
WARNING WARNING: no other wincons are publicly available.
Out of curiosity there anything we've gleaned about the Prince's family since we've been here?
You are looking for the Prince in the early afternoon, wanting to put in a word about the dishes at the proposed evening banquet, when you hear him speaking quietly with his manservant from behind a slightly opened door. Being an enterprising soul, you settle against the wall and listen. From your vantage, all you can see is a candle illuminating a paper-strewn table, and a black-clad elbow beside it.
"Are you quite all right, my liege?"
"Nay, of course," says the Prince, shifting. "Tis nothing."
". . . You need not marry, liege, if it does not please you."
"Of course I must. My elder brother showed quite well the results of laying aside your obligations. You know that better than I--you knew him better than I. He is dead for it, and it is not the story of his rule that is told, but rather the story of his death. As is told the death of my parents, of my uncle. A tragedy, as they were lacking in sons. It would not have been the same if they had had sons. As it was their lines ended and mine was born in murder."
He pauses, lays his hand in the space clarified by candlelight. It is all the whiter for his black sleeve, and trembles in minute fits against the tablewood.
"Stories, laid away like so much unpopular furniture. A nice 'encryptsulation.' Why should anyone care if my cold castle is bare? Is it not enough to enjoy the attentions of a prince?"
"Lady Griffionday wanted to cheer you, Sigfred. It is not like you to lord your noble personage above others."
"Ah yes, she wanted to lay out that 'stream-water' rug. My br--the crown prince had it put away even before he departed and died. He could not bear the sight of it, after--"
"I was here, Sigfred," Horatio says gently.
"And I know you have stayed here to warn me of their faults. You are here, so you say, to tie history together. But all you bear me is a deathly legend, wreathed in ghosts and horror stories! A middenheap of lies that drips--that drips deadly poison in the shell of mine own ear! Now tell me--won't you tell me this time, and tell me clear? Why were my young brother and I abroad when Fortinbras arrived?"
You hear him make a faint noise. A shadow blocks your view of the glistening tabletop.
"Not everything is planned, Sigfred. No one intended it. Peace. . ."
"But why--" he says through muffled sobs, "why, Horatio, when I was so far away then--why, then, am I only now here?"
You draw back, startled, as Horatio rises from where he is bent over the Prince's hunched shoulders. Your eyes meet for a moment as he turns.
". . . H-Horatio. . . ?"
"A moment, Prince Sigred," he says over his shoulder. You get the distinct impression that he does not want to watch you leave. As you skulk away, troubled, you hear him close and bar the door.
VOTE COUNT (http://michaelpjensen.com/yahoo_site_admin/assets/images/Photo_BW_Yorick_and_Gibson_2.4992650_sq_thumb_m.jpg)
Okami no Rei
Leafsnail
Tiruin
Lenglon
Griffinpup - NotQuiteThere, Toaster
zombieurist - JimGroovester,
Griffionday - Solifuge, Webadict, Leafsnail
notquitethere - Okami no Rei, Griffionday
Solifuge
Jim Groovester
Ottofar
Toaster
Webadict
Not voting - Lenglon, Tiruin, griffinpup, zombie urist, Ottofar [needs replacement]
Day end is scheduled for Tuesday at 12:00 (-8 GMT), in ~18 hours. Five requests for extension required. Two more extensions available.
Post by: webadict on August 19, 2013, 09:36:18 pm
Post by: Lenglon on August 19, 2013, 09:50:13 pm
Extend
I haven't weighed in yet.
Post by: zombie urist on August 20, 2013, 01:55:55 am
Tiruin I meant if your flavor name was based on a real person. Mine is.
NTQ I never said you should claim. Defensize much? Also the game I was thinking of was roguelike 6.
kinda wondered why no one bothered mentioning anything about names. though i guess my name (and person it was based on) kinda reflects my role.
Post by: Griffionday on August 20, 2013, 02:38:52 am
Terribly, terribly sorry for not getting back to people, but I've had killer days back-to-back and need to go to work early in the morning.
Post by: Jim Groovester on August 20, 2013, 03:47:13 am
I am prepared to lynch her, but I am still giving her a chance. Is there anything wrong with that?
Yeah. Do you think he's scum?
Because when you say stuff like this here:
Because if she can actually make an efficient case, then even in death, she contributed something. And if she's scum, then she's doing a poor job of that too. The whole point is that she should do better, regardless of her alignment, she shouldn't continue doing things that make her look bad.
It makes me think you don't.
Besides the line where you cast your vote (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4503803#msg4503803), you haven't given any indication that you actually suspect Griffionday in any way.
Need I explain the problems with this?
Post by: notquitethere on August 20, 2013, 03:55:12 am
NTQ I never said you should claim. Defensize much? Also the game I was thinking of was roguelike 6.I think I misinterpreted what you originally said. You were just asking whether people had a historical name, not what that name is, right? You didn't give any supporting reason why that information should be given, but understandably, you might just be curious. I would be if I had a historical name. In any case, I don't have a historical name. My name is my name.
kinda wondered why no one bothered mentioning anything about names. though i guess my name (and person it was based on) kinda reflects my role.
(Also, it's not not there quite, you were not quite right in ordering the letters in not quite there.)
Vektor— thanks for the scene, the setting is great so far. Do we have any idea how long Horatio has been in the family's service?
Post by: webadict on August 20, 2013, 09:18:59 am
Maybe it sounds scummy, but allowing bad cases to exist is a far greater threat. Plus, I doubt I have the evidence to lynch the two of you. Leafsnail maybe, but I don't have the resources to do that right now. You I can deal with later.
Post by: Vector on August 20, 2013, 10:52:45 am
Three more hours remaining.
Post by: griffinpup on August 20, 2013, 11:12:55 am
Post by: Toaster on August 20, 2013, 11:22:11 am
Post by: Vector on August 20, 2013, 11:24:12 am
Six votes required for final extension to 12:00 Monday -8GMT.
Post by: Lenglon on August 20, 2013, 12:16:05 pm
"I... Um, Lady Tiruin, I view letting people talk freely, without trying to maximize function and minimize form, as a way to let people express themselves slightly better. It's harder to get a feel for someone's tone, for their... their feeling, if they're trying to keep themselves minimalist. When people speak freely, they usually convey something about their general attitude, how they're feeling, who they are, and so on. For example take Lady Jim. She hasn't been one to express herself much, but what little she has revealed that she has a sense of entitlement and elitism. This matches up well with her behavior since she stopped, and is a sign that we can expect her to remain very independent in her views. This relatively minor (and not at all unexpected) piece of information is just an easy, early example of what I mean. It also is far more meaningful when speaking to someone like Lady Ranger... or is it Lady Zombie now? Well, anyway, for someone like Lady Ranger, who is more expressive in general, it means more because of the complexities that can be woven into it. It is also meaningful when people stop when they had been speaking freely in the past. This is often a symptom of pressure or worry, because it is easier to get caught in a misstatement or to accused of things they don't mean when communicating that way. This kind of corroborating evidence of what someone is feeling or reacting too is useful - particularly when someone is trying to characterize themselves as feeling different from how they actually do. It's just overall an extra information channel, and usefull as a result. Still, I um, I think I understand why some people don't like it. It can be a little difficult for people who aren't paying full attention to understand what is being said. I mean, um, I think they feel their time is really valuable, and that, well, people who aren't being super-concise are kinda... wasting their time? I mean, I know that what is being said is that you can hide that way, but I don't really see how that would really work. It... It's not all that hard to call someone out on not answering something, you know? I've never seen or heard of someone managing to actually do it anyway, so I'm having trouble giving much credit to the accusation that it's an effective trick. I do admit that I worry about people using that as an accusation against me though, and then ignoring what I've been doing and saying in favor of hopping up and down and pointing at all the times I've spoken without restraint. It happened to me in the past, and I didn't handle it well, so I'm afraid of it happening again. I don't plan on stopping though. I am who I am, and I just need to try to be ready for the accusation when it comes. I'lll... I'll just try to be ready."
"Anyway, um, I've had quite some time to think on things, and one part of something from a while back really bugs me. Lady Solifuge, you never properly answered my questions to you earlier. I don't understand why you became so serious, so suddenly, and it worries me still. you never explained your questions, you never said what you learned from them, you never really addressed my concerns in any proper way. This... well, it bothers me. I asked one of the servants here what you were doing while I was... indisposed... and you seem to be following in Lady Web's footsteps regarding Lady GriffDay, and otherwise have been somewhat... unavailable? In any case, although I think Lady GriffDay's accusations of Lady NQT are not on very solid ground, I am confused by your reaction to them. It seems like a valid line of inquiry to me, not enough to want to kick her out, but enough to ask questions over. Yet you're pressing her on focusing too much on a single target, while focusing on a single target yourself. This... well, it's odd. and I... well, right now, If I were going to pick someone to kick out right now, it wouldn't be Lady Griffday, it would be you."
Madam LenglonTiruin:I think RP makes for a very poor diversion, and that most of the gripe against it is nothing more than the desire to have people write posts that are easy to skim over and don't require properly reading them. I think it is useful for learning what emotion someone is feeling as they post, particularly when they switch to and from using RP.
Given your last post (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4496002#msg4496002) [same problems like me? :P] I'll have to ask you something that I usually see the case is, in people doing RP.-snip-
"How do you see scumhunting communication through that method? Emotional cues and tone differences sometimes make their appearance in a different way to people, and in the context of Mafia, it may also be easily misinterpreted.
"What do you think is the essence (why it is asked) behind people saying 'RP'ing can be used as a diversion'?"
Solifuge: This was blatant evasion, please explain it. On the first question simply compare your first and second post's levels of RP. on the second one you failed to answer either question in any way. also, I dislike your case on GriffDay. I feel his line of questioning is valid for pressure, and he has been quite forthright while making it, although it doesn't qualify as a good lynch case.Lenglon goes and gets a glass of water for Solifuge, and offers it to her.Thank you... but I still have no idea what you mean.
Solifuge: you dropped your RP almost completely when you answered that. why?Solifuge: you had no follow-up to the questions you asked me, why? what did you learn from them?Oh, don't be so -nervous-, m'lady. We're just getting to know one another.
*At this, Lady Solifuge takes a sip from the offered glass, before leaning in closer with a small smile.*
When you should be nervous, I'll let you know.
Post by: Vector on August 20, 2013, 02:14:11 pm
Post by: notquitethere on August 20, 2013, 02:39:03 pm
Post by: Vector on August 20, 2013, 05:02:26 pm
Vektor: Leafsnail has been gone for 43 hours now, Solifuge 71.
Leafsnail and Solifuge have been prodded.
Post by: zombie urist on August 20, 2013, 05:11:47 pm
Post by: webadict on August 20, 2013, 05:53:09 pm
lenglon if you would rather kick Tiruin out rather that griffionday then why arent' you voting her?Where did she say that?
Post by: Solifuge on August 20, 2013, 06:15:06 pm
Also, so many extensions. I'm kind of waiting for Day 2, so we can have something concrete to go on. Can this be the last one please?))
Post by: zombie urist on August 20, 2013, 06:27:06 pm
Post by: webadict on August 20, 2013, 06:44:18 pm
((Still getting my stuff set up and stable at the new place. Got some time at a compy right now, so I'll go over things soon.That's stupid and lazy. You don't go to Day 2 to get something concrete. You determine a legitimate person to lynch on Day 1, and then prepare to use any additional information for Day 2. When did all the things that happened Today suddenly disappear? Please don't EVER say that again, because that is such an awful way to look at it. That just feels like you don't care a lick about what happens.
Also, so many extensions. I'm kind of waiting for Day 2, so we can have something concrete to go on. Can this be the last one please?))
web: its the last sentence of the purple RP text.Oh. I skip over it, because I assume RP is basically extra fluff. Like it should be. Carry on.
Post by: Lenglon on August 20, 2013, 06:54:28 pm
lenglon if you would rather kick Tiruin out rather that griffionday then why arent' you voting her?That was addressed to Solifuge, not Tiruin.
Post by: Leafsnail on August 20, 2013, 07:02:24 pm
@Jim: honestly, no. I don't think she's scum. It's too... convenient. I suspect both you and Leafsnail, but I can't prove anything just yet. Hence why I want her to make a better case. But, I can't make her do better, and I'm okay with lynching her if she doesn't want to. The point is that regardless, she's a liability to the town if she doesn't improve.unvote vote webadict. What the hell are you doing?
Maybe it sounds scummy, but allowing bad cases to exist is a far greater threat. Plus, I doubt I have the evidence to lynch the two of you. Leafsnail maybe, but I don't have the resources to do that right now. You I can deal with later.
There are two people you regard as scummy. Yet instead of making any real efforr to sttack either of them you're just attacking their cases on someone. And what's more, you're GOING ALONG WITH TWO PEOPLE YOU THINK ARE SCUM due to some vague policylynch bullshit.
Questions:
- Why are you voting for someome you think is town, even though you could swing the vote?
- If you're after policy lynch, wouldn't it be better to hit a lurker than somepne who is actually contributing? My phone won't let me edit the bit below so it makes no sense.
- Why are you not attempting to lynch
Post by: webadict on August 20, 2013, 07:37:59 pm
I believe I have corrected your post, but if you meant something else, please let me know.@Jim: honestly, no. I don't think she's scum. It's too... convenient. I suspect both you and Leafsnail, but I can't prove anything just yet. Hence why I want her to make a better case. But, I can't make her do better, and I'm okay with lynching her if she doesn't want to. The point is that regardless, she's a liability to the town if she doesn't improve.unvote vote webadict. What the hell are you doing?
Maybe it sounds scummy, but allowing bad cases to exist is a far greater threat. Plus, I doubt I have the evidence to lynch the two of you. Leafsnail maybe, but I don't have the resources to do that right now. You I can deal with later.
There are two people you regard as scummy. Yet instead of making any real effort to attack either of them you're just attacking their cases on someone. And what's more, you're GOING ALONG WITH TWO PEOPLE YOU THINK ARE SCUM due to some vague policylynch bullshit.
Questions:
- Why are you voting for someone you think is town, even though you could swing the vote?
- If you're after policy lynch, wouldn't it be better to hit a lurker than someone who is actually contributing?
- Why are you not attempting to lynch to one of the players you suspect?
Policy lynch? I think you're using that word wrong. I'm not proposing a policy lynch. In fact, I would very much not like to lynch her. But, I refuse to let her continue making a crappy case, and if I have to lynch her, then oh well, I guess she might learn something from it.
But, I'm assuming you don't really care about that. I'm thinking big picture here, aren't I? Let's stick with the little picture. Little picture (okay, maybe slightly smaller picture) is this: She isn't lynched, but she doesn't learn. She is kept alive until some Day in the future, where people will think "Hey, why didn't we lynch her Day 1 again?" And then she'll be lynched. Then, she'll have accomplished nothing, we'll have lost a Day later in the game, where Days are far more important, and she'll have learned her lesson way later.
The littler picture is that I might be wrong, and I'd rather not end up doubting myself later, so Today is a great Day to remove both a player that is making a poor case and appearing scummy to everyone.
The littlest picture is that I'm trying to get her to do something productive Today. If she doesn't, then she gets lynched, regardless of how town I believe her to be.
I don't know where you got the idea that I was being vague about it. Indeed, I've told her multiple times what would allow me to unvote her and allow her to be a functioning member of the Town. I don't believe I've been vague in explaining this either. If anything, I was simply not asked.
As for voting a lurker... really? Man, YOU'RE a lurker. Your posts are below average in just about all the important aspects. If it makes you feel better, I'll certainly vote you. I've got no problem with that. I have never not had a point to voting as I do, but voting someone for lurking would be stupidly lame. I'd rather they got modkilled. Which is simply a better option.
Now for the third point... The easiest answer is that there isn't enough evidence to do that. The best answer is that there isn't enough GOOD evidence to do it. I can certainly bring up your shoddy posting, contribution, understanding, and overall play, but you'll coast by making minimal effort until at least Tomorrow, posting things such as "PFP busy cant answrr" which I can't verify or counter, kill me Tonight, and then pretend nothing happened. Or WIFOM it. Or just make the Town retarded, as usual.
The point is that I'd rather I fixed a problem we're having now that will continue to reoccur while I'm still alive to do it. I used to think this game was winnable by yourself. But it's not. No matter what team, alignment, or role you have in a game, you need to rely on other players. The players I need to rely on just happen to be the Town. And if they can't shape up their actions, then I wasn't going to win with flawless arguments anyway.
Riddle me that, Batman.
Post by: Jim Groovester on August 20, 2013, 08:19:36 pm
In fact, I would very much not like to lynch her.
Then don't.
webadict.
Post by: Jim Groovester on August 20, 2013, 08:24:43 pm
Voting and lynching people you don't suspect for making bad cases is idiotic and scummy, and no amount of flimsy justifications and rationalizations will ever support that.
Post by: webadict on August 20, 2013, 08:36:57 pm
I suppose I should add, if you're that concerned about getting new players to learn, go IC a Beginner's Mafia.Hahahahahaha.
Voting and lynching people you don't suspect for making bad cases is idiotic and scummy, and no amount of flimsy justifications and rationalizations will ever support that.
Haha.
Ha.
Oh Jim. Thank you for making your lynching so much easier. :D I have never literally been handed a blank check like this. This is such a great day, you have no idea. I literally CANNOT lose! This is amazing!
Let's rock, babe. Jim Groovester.
Let's start with the explanations first.
First, show where the justification is flimsy.
Second, please explain in greater detail how it is scummy. I don't believe it is self-explanatory to everyone watching, especially since you pointed out that no justification at all would be valid. Therefore, there must be a point where it begins to be scummy.
Then, the questions.
Why do you believe it is acceptable to allow bad cases in any game at all?
Who do you believe is Town?
Why do you believe this is about new players at all?
Post by: webadict on August 20, 2013, 08:38:38 pm
Post by: Jim Groovester on August 21, 2013, 12:37:42 am
I'm seriously starting to wonder.
First, show where the justification is flimsy.
Alright, let's start with the part where you think it's a good idea to lynch players you don't suspect.
Let's also stop there, since that's all that needs to be said.
Because in a game where the town win by finding scum and lynching them, it should be really obvious that spending lynches on players you don't suspect is counterproductive.
Second, please explain in greater detail how it is scummy. I don't believe it is self-explanatory to everyone watching, especially since you pointed out that no justification at all would be valid. Therefore, there must be a point where it begins to be scummy.
It provides an easy cover for scum.
Instead of scumhunting, they can just vote for people with bad cases! All under the altruistic guise of critiquing them under threat of lynch.
Truly there's no possible way any member of the scum team would possibly abuse that to avoid engaging in the more difficult task of pretending to scumhunt.
Why do you believe it is acceptable to allow bad cases in any game at all?
Because bad cases and punishing them is not the point of the game of mafia.
Who do you believe is Town?
I haven't seen anything in this game from any player that makes me think they're town since everybody's activity has been dismal and their scumhunting underwhelming. For the most part, my opinion on everybody is neutral.
You're scummy though.
Why do you believe this is about new players at all?
Believe what about new players?
Post by: zombie urist on August 21, 2013, 01:01:32 am
Hrmm... I agree with Webadict to a degree in that town people can be anti-town (zoomzoll in MasonsMafiaHackers) but not really here. Also Webadict doesn't seem to have a case on Jim.
OTOH Jim's vote on Web was awfully speedy after LS's.
Toaster's feeling kinda meh. Can't pinpoint anything specific though.
Griffion needs to summarize his WoT's cuz I can't make anything of them. (and post more)
I really only read the first few and last few sentences. While you might use umms in RL a lot, it makes reading harder to follow.lenglon if you would rather kick Tiruin out rather that griffionday then why arent' you voting her?That was addressed to Solifuge, not Tiruin.
Post by: Vector on August 21, 2013, 01:46:44 am
VOTE COUNT
Okami no Rei
Leafsnail
Tiruin
Lenglon
Griffinpup - NotQuiteThere, Toaster
zombieurist -
Griffionday - Solifuge
notquitethere - Okami no Rei, Griffionday
Solifuge - Lenglon
Jim Groovester - Webadict
Ottofar
Toaster
Webadict - Leafsnail, JimGroovester
Not voting - griffinpup, zombie urist, Ottofar [needs replacement], Tiruin [hurricane]
Day end is scheduled for Thursday at 12:00 (-8 GMT). Six requests for extension required. One more extension available.
Post by: Solifuge on August 21, 2013, 01:52:45 am
Post by: Vector on August 21, 2013, 01:56:22 am
Post by: Tiruin on August 21, 2013, 02:27:52 am
Man, I'm sorry--it seems like a lot of people are having trouble getting into this. Is there anything, as a mod, that I could do to help you out? Please feel free to let me know.((It's my net connection, and the fact that we're really under the weather. Figuratively pertaining to myself, and literally.
I'll post later and this game is awesome. :I))
Post by: Griffionday on August 21, 2013, 02:55:59 am
As is fairly obvious by now I don't have a clear picture of how my case is coming across. Obviously my actions make sense to me, and as far as I can tell they absolutely do not to a fair number of you.
To get a clearer picture of how my case is being seen by others: does my case sound about as bad as Webadict's against Jim? (obviously in a different fashion, I'm referring to quality/validity) If so, I'm terribly sorry, and I'll avoid the methods I was attempting to use in the future at least until I figure out how to properly hunt through the normal channels.
Until I've cleared up the confusion about the thinking behind my read and subsequent case, both to others and to myself, I will unvote.
Lady Jim:
How about, you give me a fucking quote, or even better, as many fucking quotes as it takes, because I still don't understand what the fuck point you're trying to make.That's my bad; I was trying to avoid making an already giant WOT even larger. May I compromise and put the relevant quotes in spoilers?
So if your accounting of the events is accurate, and I see no reason to dispute, I don't really see any fault with NQT at all. He pointed out you did not respond to his question as intended, like he should have, and then you decide to be cagey for no good reason and not answer him, like you should not have.Because he was following up with other players and calling out scummy moves on their part.
Why do you think he decided to not follow up with you, instead of him just forgetting about it?
Spoiler: Relevant quote (click to show/hide)
I was responding to this:Fun fact! Attempting to play better is not, in fact, a town tell. Stop using it as a shield.
WHERE
And I don't want a goddamned link, I want a quote to a specific location.
Spoiler: Relevant quote (click to show/hide)
Filling space, brah. You're great at it. I wonder, is your RP worth reading or is it more useless space filling?I've tried hunting in RP mode. It didn't turn out well for any party involved. In this game I've used my RP purely for fun; I'm sorry I wasn't clear on this.
I just read it, nope. Thank you for wasting my time.
Post by: Griffionday on August 21, 2013, 02:58:07 am
To answer your accusation: I tend to ask myself "Is the player in question acting in the most likely way town would, or how scum would?" Hence the reason I go to such lengths to engineer situations where a difference could occur. In the example you're referring too I'm saying that town would be more likely to attempt to be in control of a line of questions that they are asking (so they can be more sure of what the answer is telling them) while scum might be more willing to allow a question to be dictated by the answer as they're not interested in the read they'll be getting, but rather being seen to ask and answer questions.If you didn't care about the question, yes. I say that you didn't care because it didn't really seem to interest you, in fact you pretty much allowed me complete control over that question.Well it did interest me, hence why I got back to it later. But here I feel we're talking about talking about talking and the original issue and the motivations surrounding it have become somewhat obscured. What you seem to be saying here is that answering someone's enquiries (and it's not as if I haven't asked questions in return) is proof of scumhood. What you are doing here is starting with a prejudice which you then try to rationalise until it becomes a universal rule. Ask yourself, could a town player conceivably act in the way I have seen this princess act?
To start you asked the question, I responded in a fashion that I knew was not the one you intended (town baiting). In the same post I shoot the question back to you, you bring up the fact that it wasn't answered in the fashion you intended and reply using my read of your question. I let the matter lie for a post, you do the same. I bring up the fact that I didn't answer the question you intended, you rephrase your question to be non-ambiguous.
By this point you've let me have complete control over this line of inquiry, indicating that you really don't care about keeping me off balance to test me if I'm scum. This indicates that either you've a complete read on me (which is idiotic at this stage of the game as others have pointed out) or that you in fact are not town.
If this wasn't the answer you were expecting I'm not sure what else I can do for you. It appears as if you've decided that I'm scum and are getting annoyed when I don't self-incriminate enough. Since you've already prejudged my case, why not simply say so? You're not fooling anyone with this charade. Tell me, what answer would have satisfied you that I was town?Completely? Nothing.
That being said, an answer that showed that you had read and gotten something from my answer would have done a good deal. If your answer wasn't directly structured and formatted like the verbatim win-con, and showed enough editing that scum couldn't pull all the essential terms from your claim it would have satisfied me that you had actually read my answer. The fact that you almost directly quoted seemed to indicate that my answer should have been very odd and strange to you; so the question to me was why didn't you press me on that?
Webadict:
My goodness, Griffionday, you're not getting it.Apparently not in the slightest.
To shove with full force is foolish.Could we just go with that one in the future so I clearly know the whole case you're leveling against me all at once?
I do have one question though:
Why would I chainsaw defend NQT? She's doing just fine by letting you talk.I've no idea WHY you would do it; but isn't the definition of chainsawing "pressuring someone with the purpose of getting them to unvote a third party"? As in, pretty much exactly what you are doing? So why ARE you chainsawing?
Post by: Griffionday on August 21, 2013, 03:00:24 am
PFP @Griffionday: as far as I can tell your new answer on the aggressive apology contradicts your old one. Previously you said you weren't only paying attention to him, now you're saying you were but it's ok because he's scum.We're referring to this right?
Still not gettin other point, NQT is scum with town wincon??
Spoiler: Relevant quote (click to show/hide)
As to the other point, as Webadict showed, it is completely legal for scum to ask for the town wincon; so scum having the town wincon isn't impossible.
ZU:
Griffionday: give me a short summary of your posts plz.
Griffion needs to summarize his WoT's cuz I can't make anything of them. (and post more)I understand you don't have time to read all of my WOTs, unfortunately I don't have time right now to provide summaries that are succinct and accurate. I hope you understand but I'm going to have to refuse. I'll try to avoid WOTs in the future, not quite sure how though.
Toaster:
Griffionday: I tend to agree with the other cases on you that say your case on NQT sucks, but this in particular jumped out at me:You are not misreading that.-snip-
Wait, what?
Are you saying you're dropping scum tells on purpose for him and you're expecting him to go after you on them, or he's not town? Please tell me I'm misreading this, because as such it makes no damn sense.
My goal was to test the validity of his scum-hunting through experiment; rather than just seeing what I felt of his cases as seems to be status quo. I attempted to manufacture situations that I had more control over, to see if he was hunting or just trying to appear to be doing so. As he did not press what I felt he should have (that is what I thought was ambiguous or scummy enough to warrant pressing on), I assumed that he was avoiding engagement. Which I took as needlessly defensive.
Does that make more sense or less now?
Tiruin:
Griffionday: Why ask that question anyway (@NQT--the thing I linked to; wincon)?Because I had no idea why NQT found it to be an interesting or useful question, and thought it would be a good idea to reverse his question on him. Turns out, it's an awful question.
What was your explanation afterwards talking about and what was it referring to?Could you be more specific with this question?
(s)He directly answered the question, did (s)he not?As I mentioned to him, the reason I disliked his answer so much was that it showed he cared nothing about my answer; and while anyone could have the town wincon, I feel only scum wouldn't be suspicious if a player responded with an answer that wasn't very similar to how they would have answered the question.
Post by: Griffionday on August 21, 2013, 03:05:32 am
Jim Groovester (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4518633#msg4518633)
NQT & Webadict (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4518636#msg4518636)
Leafsnail, Zombie Urist, Toaster & Tiruin (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4518639#msg4518639)
I'm sorry for letting this get to the point where this was the least confusing way of answering all the questions. Vector is right I need to work on only paying attention to what matters. Please let me know if I missed any questions that you still want answered.
Post by: Jim Groovester on August 21, 2013, 04:30:12 am
Man, I'm sorry--it seems like a lot of people are having trouble getting into this. Is there anything, as a mod, that I could do to help you out? Please feel free to let me know.
More frequent vote counts might help.
Every day or every other page (at 15 posts per page), whichever comes first, seems to work well.
Hrmm... I agree with Webadict to a degree in that town people can be anti-town (zoomzoll in MasonsMafiaHackers) but not really here.
This is undeniably true, but are they worth lynching over scum suspects?
Because he was following up with other players and calling out scummy moves on their part.
Did he follow up on other players when they neglected to answer questions he directed at them?
To get a clearer picture of how my case is being seen by others: does my case sound about as bad as Webadict's against Jim?
Oh my God this is hilarious.
Post by: notquitethere on August 21, 2013, 06:15:04 am
To answer your accusation: I tend to ask myself "Is the player in question acting in the most likely way town would, or how scum would?" Hence the reason I go to such lengths to engineer situations where a difference could occur. In the example you're referring too I'm saying that town would be more likely to attempt to be in control of a line of questions that they are asking (so they can be more sure of what the answer is telling them) while scum might be more willing to allow a question to be dictated by the answer as they're not interested in the read they'll be getting, but rather being seen to ask and answer questions.I can see your reasoning here, but you surely see that it's not exactly an iron-tight way of catching scum. I think 'being in control of the line of question' is a bit of a wooly concept. Am I in control now with this question? Or are you in control merely by the fact that I'm answering you? It'd be interesting to see you unpack this idea a bit.
That being said, an answer that showed that you had read and gotten something from my answer would have done a good deal. If your answer wasn't directly structured and formatted like the verbatim win-con, and showed enough editing that scum couldn't pull all the essential terms from your claim it would have satisfied me that you had actually read my answer. The fact that you almost directly quoted seemed to indicate that my answer should have been very odd and strange to you; so the question to me was why didn't you press me on that?No, your wincon answer wasn't that odd. You just paraphrased a bit more (or else, made it up because at the time you hadn't asked Vector for the town wincon). Your scum hunting technique is really bizarre. You seem to be saying that you deliberately make scumslips in order to vote people who don't pick up on them. I think you're just making post hoc justifications.
Princess Solifuge
I'm not unsympathetic to complaints against a long Day 1 with little of substance. Still, it behooves us to make the most of our vote in the day. Right now there are three points of interest, to me at least:
1. Several players serially lurk but haven't been in a hurricane or moving house —check ZU's lurker tracker— is this a sign of scumminess?
2. Lady Griffionday has spent almost the entirety of the game in a back-and-forth conversation with me, arguing that I am scum because, essentially, I didn't pick up on her scumtells. Is this a good way of scumhunting?
3. The once united trio of Princesses Wuba, Groovester and Leafsnail, previously after Lady Griffionday for her weak case, have turned on one another, just a moment ago. Do you think it's plausible that all of these ladies could be town Princesses?
Post by: webadict on August 21, 2013, 07:26:04 am
Did you go insane at some point?Haha, no. You're just so incredibly obvious is all. I don't know if anyone else really sees it, but you have really fallen in terms of scumplay. Probably because it's a lot harder to hide it while being a princess. Usually, you can hide behind a rather aggressive wall, but it's a little harder now that you can't be as aggressive as usual. Oh well, what can you do? (The answer is try.)
I'm seriously starting to wonder.
Haha, that's all? Man, I was hoping you'd make an actual case. Yours is just so droll. You're not even trying.First, show where the justification is flimsy.
Alright, let's start with the part where you think it's a good idea to lynch players you don't suspect.
Let's also stop there, since that's all that needs to be said.
Because in a game where the town win by finding scum and lynching them, it should be really obvious that spending lynches on players you don't suspect is counterproductive.
Why? That's the question you haven't answered. I have answered why I'd rather lynch Griffionday Today rather than having to deal with him later. If she doesn't pick up the slack, she's a burden on the Town. If she's enough of a burden on the Town, then she's basically scum. At BEST, she's a meatshield. At worst, she's actively killing Town. I'd rather have someone that makes a good argument.
But, I guess the point is moot now as I can finally vote you. You've finally started maybe trying? Because I haven't seen anything like that yet. Maybe next post? Because this game isn't fun when you're playing against drones.
You think you were scumhunting? What'd you do, RV RangerCado and then sit around telling him how bad he was? Oh wait, that actually happened, and you haven't really done anything since. You complained the game was slow, didn't fix that. You told people that you were allowed to ask stupid pointless questions, while also complaining about RP. So... Yeah, that's your game summary right now. Pretty depressing. That's why I think you're scum. Because you're just not participating. You're activelurking. RVS questions when people are voting for real. RVSing RangerCado and not really caring about the results of that. I'm actually glad you're voting me, because then you'll get a billion more chances to show everyone you're scum.Second, please explain in greater detail how it is scummy. I don't believe it is self-explanatory to everyone watching, especially since you pointed out that no justification at all would be valid. Therefore, there must be a point where it begins to be scummy.
It provides an easy cover for scum.
Instead of scumhunting, they can just vote for people with bad cases! All under the altruistic guise of critiquing them under threat of lynch.
Truly there's no possible way any member of the scum team would possibly abuse that to avoid engaging in the more difficult task of pretending to scumhunt.
See why I want you to try now? Because you haven't in the two weeks we've been playing. But, hey, now's your chance! Feel free to stand up at any point! Literally no one is stopping you.
Additionally, I hadn't had a scum suspect until recently, so I'd rather have used my vote on trying to make a player I didn't think was scum do better. Of course, you should know that, you asked me that question! But, alas, I don't believe you cared about the answer. In fact, Toaster's the one who ended up resolving the answer. You... just sorta asked more RVS questions.
Why do you believe it is acceptable to allow bad cases in any game at all?
Because bad cases and punishing them is not the point of the game of mafia.
Really? Ah, see, that's where you and I must play different games. To me, NQT, Griffionday, Toaster, and Solifuge (though, she's the least likely) are Town. I can understand why you'd think no one is participating. It probably comes from your own mindset. You haven't participated, so you feel like no one else has. So, it's not surprising that you don't have a single clue who is town or who is scum. Mostly because you just don't need to care.Who do you believe is Town?
I haven't seen anything in this game from any player that makes me think they're town since everybody's activity has been dismal and their scumhunting underwhelming. For the most part, my opinion on everybody is neutral.
You're scummy though.
Maybe you want to try now, hmm?
Me trying to improve Griffionday's case isn't because he's new. It's because he's playing the game. This isn't about helping a new player at all. I'll help anyone. Heck, hopefully you start trying, so I at least get a challenge. Maybe I'll help you do that? Or, maybe, you'll sit around doing nothing. Doing something for two weeks tends to make it a pattern, I hear.Why do you believe this is about new players at all?
Believe what about new players?
Overall, I have this to say:
You haven't done anything special. This includes scumhunting.
You should try. Seriously, please let me think you're trying.
:D <-- My face, seeing Jim not try as he votes me with little provided reasoning or explanation.
>:) <-- My face, when I get a competent opponent.
Current face = :D
Let me run a quick function, just really quick.Hrmm... I agree with Webadict to a degree in that town people can be anti-town (zoomzoll in MasonsMafiaHackers) but not really here.
This is undeniably true, but are they worth lynching over scum suspects?
listOfGames = allGames.find(stupidDay1MistakesThatScrewOverLylo);
print(listOfGames.contains(allGames.containsPlayer(Org));
run
true
Stupid Day 1 mistakes that are never fixed will wreck havoc later in the game. This is because suspicions raise as the Days go by, and when that one player who made such a stupid mistake on Day 1 is still alive at Day 4, people think "Better lynch that girl!" If Griffionday is allowed to continue on, she'll be lynched anyway. I'm just trying to get her to change now, either with her own shift or with her own death. I kind of care which, actually, since I don't believe she's scum, but I'm willing to watch her die. My conscious will remain clean. Or empty. One of those two.
Regardless, please try harder. Or hard. Or even just try.
Webadict:You were tunneling your target. You weren't listening to other people. You had a bad case. You had bad evidence. You fell into a trap. Overall, your case had too many holes, and it needed to be reevaluated. If you refused to change, you were going to be lynched, whether Today or maybe Day 2 or 3. The point is, you WERE going to get lynched by doing what you were doing.My goodness, Griffionday, you're not getting it.Apparently not in the slightest.To shove with full force is foolish.Could we just go with that one in the future so I clearly know the whole case you're leveling against me all at once?
I do have one question though:Why would I chainsaw defend NQT? She's doing just fine by letting you talk.I've no idea WHY you would do it; but isn't the definition of chainsawing "pressuring someone with the purpose of getting them to unvote a third party"? As in, pretty much exactly what you are doing? So why ARE you chainsawing?
And... Okay, I was unintentionally defending NQT, you got me there. But, the main reason wasn't because NQT was Town. There are plenty of cases on people I think are Town. The main reason was because your reasoning was flawed, and you were fighting as hard as you could to get people to see you were right. You shoved so hard that you tunneled past any information that might've led you to change your mind. Hopefully, you start a case with a more open view. You are free to pursue it to the ends of the Earth, but don't overlook the information in front of you.
Come on, girl, get it together. At least you're doing better than Jim Groovester. (He hasn't even tried the whole game.)
Post by: webadict on August 21, 2013, 07:28:03 am
Post by: Vector on August 21, 2013, 12:39:36 pm
More frequent vote counts might help.
Every day or every other page (at 15 posts per page), whichever comes first, seems to work well.
People mostly aren't voting, but OK.
Also, please prod Okami no Rei and Ottofar. They haven't posted in about 2 days.
Ottofar is up for replace and I think that ONR just asked for one as well. We'll probably have a long night as I look for replacements.
Post by: Vector on August 21, 2013, 12:40:39 pm
Okami no Rei
Leafsnail
Tiruin
Lenglon
Griffinpup - NotQuiteThere, Toaster
zombieurist -
Griffionday - Solifuge
notquitethere - Okami no Rei
Solifuge - Lenglon
Jim Groovester - Webadict
Ottofar
Toaster
Webadict - Leafsnail, JimGroovester
Not voting - Griffionday, griffinpup, zombie urist, Ottofar [needs replacement], Tiruin [hurricane]
Day end is scheduled for Thursday at 12:00 (-8 GMT). Six requests for extension required. One more extension available.
[/quote]
Post by: Toaster on August 21, 2013, 02:28:36 pm
Lenglon snaps awake in her chair, rather thoroughly embarrassed at finding herself dozing in public. after spending several moments speaking to a servant in the room to find out what she missed, she returns to the discussion
Are there any take-away points in that block of RP? The lack of paragraphs makes it unreadable.
Solifuge:
Also, so many extensions. I'm kind of waiting for Day 2, so we can have something concrete to go on. Can this be the last one please?))
I'm a crappy D1 player too and still recognize this as lazy as hell.
Griffionday:
To get a clearer picture of how my case is being seen by others: does my case sound about as bad as Webadict's against Jim?
Starting a case with a request for validation completely takes the teeth out of your attacks.
Toaster:Griffionday: I tend to agree with the other cases on you that say your case on NQT sucks, but this in particular jumped out at me:You are not misreading that.-snip-
Wait, what?
Are you saying you're dropping scum tells on purpose for him and you're expecting him to go after you on them, or he's not town? Please tell me I'm misreading this, because as such it makes no damn sense.
My goal was to test the validity of his scum-hunting through experiment; rather than just seeing what I felt of his cases as seems to be status quo. I attempted to manufacture situations that I had more control over, to see if he was hunting or just trying to appear to be doing so. As he did not press what I felt he should have (that is what I thought was ambiguous or scummy enough to warrant pressing on), I assumed that he was avoiding engagement. Which I took as needlessly defensive.
Does that make more sense or less now?
Okay, I just wanted to be sure.
That idea is silly and ineffective. Please refrain from doing it ever again, since at best, it gets nothing useful and at worst, it's a scum move. (PersonA didn't respond to a point I made so she is clearly scum etc.)
In any case, you spend a lot of time talking and practically no time drawing conclusions, as evidenced by your lack of vote on anyone. Who is scum? Why?
Vector: Prod request on Griffinpup. Her last post was "extend" and nothing more, so that shouldn't count, IMO.
Wuba: While I think I get your points on Jim, just so I'm clear, please list your top three or so scum picks in order.
NQT:
3. The once united trio of Princesses Wuba, Groovester and Leafsnail, previously after Lady Griffionday for her weak case, have turned on one another, just a moment ago. Do you think it's plausible that all of these ladies could be town Princesses?
Do you think they could all be town? If not, who isn't?
Post by: Tiruin on August 21, 2013, 03:38:53 pm
Webadict//Toaster: This (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4501227#msg4501227) caught my eye. You both saw nothing significantly scummy earlier before those notes there?
Lenglon:
Tiruin:I think RP makes for a very poor diversion, and that most of the gripe against it is nothing more than the desire to have people write posts that are easy to skim over and don't require properly reading them. I think it is useful for learning what emotion someone is feeling as they post, particularly when they switch to and from using RP.(I love how you did a textual then a RP verse.)
Intriguing.
Could you say emotion plays, or is a definitive factor in scumhunting? When could you do so, and when could you generally excuse it?
Leafsnail: Small query.
The bolded part is contradictory to the essence of this post. Why would someone attack the person, and not their case? Is there something wrong with attacking someone's case?@Jim: honestly, no. I don't think she's scum. It's too... convenient. I suspect both you and Leafsnail, but I can't prove anything just yet. Hence why I want her to make a better case. But, I can't make her do better, and I'm okay with lynching her if she doesn't want to. The point is that regardless, she's a liability to the town if she doesn't improve.unvote vote webadict. What the hell are you doing?
Maybe it sounds scummy, but allowing bad cases to exist is a far greater threat. Plus, I doubt I have the evidence to lynch the two of you. Leafsnail maybe, but I don't have the resources to do that right now. You I can deal with later.
There are two people you regard as scummy. Yet instead of making any real efforr to sttack either of them you're just attacking their cases on someone. And what's more, you're GOING ALONG WITH TWO PEOPLE YOU THINK ARE SCUM due to some vague policylynch bullshit.
Questions:
- Why are you voting for someome you think is town, even though you could swing the vote?
- If you're after policy lynch, wouldn't it be better to hit a lurker than somepne who is actually contributing? My phone won't let me edit the bit below so it makes no sense.
- Why are you not attempting to lynch
Solifuge:
(([...]Why are you waiting for D2?
Also, so many extensions. I'm kind of waiting for Day 2, so we can have something concrete to go on. Can this be the last one please?))
Why are you waiting for D2 when you could be committing to D1 and using it as a continuation?
What 'concrete' thing would be, if everything would be based on previous deeds?
Post by: Toaster on August 21, 2013, 03:49:33 pm
Webadict//Toaster: This (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4501227#msg4501227) caught my eye. You both saw nothing significantly scummy earlier before those notes there?
Other than NQT's massive flipflop or Pup's extreme apathy, nothing major.
Post by: Jim Groovester on August 21, 2013, 04:35:01 pm
try harder nub
Okay.
That's not 'okay' as in, I admit to being wrong, I will start trying harder, it's 'okay' as in, a lazy dismissal.
Why?
I have explained why. If you weren't so interested in the four course meal comprised of poopoo de wubadub you might have noticed it.
That's the genteel way of saying that you're too busy eating the shit you're full of to notice any points beside your own.
You think you were scumhunting? What'd you do, RV RangerCado and then sit around telling him how bad he was? Oh wait, that actually happened, and you haven't really done anything since. You complained the game was slow, didn't fix that. You told people that you were allowed to ask stupid pointless questions, while also complaining about RP. So... Yeah, that's your game summary right now. Pretty depressing. That's why I think you're scum. Because you're just not participating. You're activelurking. RVS questions when people are voting for real. RVSing RangerCado and not really caring about the results of that. I'm actually glad you're voting me, because then you'll get a billion more chances to show everyone you're scum.Second, please explain in greater detail how it is scummy. I don't believe it is self-explanatory to everyone watching, especially since you pointed out that no justification at all would be valid. Therefore, there must be a point where it begins to be scummy.
It provides an easy cover for scum.
Instead of scumhunting, they can just vote for people with bad cases! All under the altruistic guise of critiquing them under threat of lynch.
Truly there's no possible way any member of the scum team would possibly abuse that to avoid engaging in the more difficult task of pretending to scumhunt.
See why I want you to try now? Because you haven't in the two weeks we've been playing. But, hey, now's your chance! Feel free to stand up at any point! Literally no one is stopping you.
Additionally, I hadn't had a scum suspect until recently, so I'd rather have used my vote on trying to make a player I didn't think was scum do better. Of course, you should know that, you asked me that question! But, alas, I don't believe you cared about the answer. In fact, Toaster's the one who ended up resolving the answer. You... just sorta asked more RVS questions.
This is not a response to the point I made.
I suppose in the absence of any reasonable response to something, you make a lot of noise and try to make a distraction.
Tell me, wubadub, that lynching people you don't suspect for having bad cases is not abusable by scum.
Me trying to improve Griffionday's case isn't because he's new. It's because he's playing the game. This isn't about helping a new player at all. I'll help anyone. Heck, hopefully you start trying, so I at least get a challenge. Maybe I'll help you do that? Or, maybe, you'll sit around doing nothing. Doing something for two weeks tends to make it a pattern, I hear.Why do you believe this is about new players at all?
Believe what about new players?
This is also not a response to the question I had. Proof positive that you weren't actually interested in my answers, except as boxes of quotes that you can use to make lots of noise completely off-topic to their contents.
Why did I think responding to you would be a productive use of my time?
Wuba: While I think I get your points on Jim, just so I'm clear, please list your top three or so scum picks in order.
You do?
What are they?
Is it more than just wubadub saying I've had a weak Day 1?
Post by: webadict on August 21, 2013, 05:20:49 pm
Doesn't this just prove you're not trying?try harder nub
Okay.
That's not 'okay' as in, I admit to being wrong, I will start trying harder, it's 'okay' as in, a lazy dismissal.
No, you really haven't. You're simply just ignoring all the counterpoints I've made. And that's giving your points more credit than their worth. Which is basically nothing, because you're still not trying.Why?
I have explained why. If you weren't so interested in the four course meal comprised of poopoo de wubadub you might have noticed it.
That's the genteel way of saying that you're too busy eating the shit you're full of to notice any points beside your own.
So, your point is that it's abusable by scum? So is LITERALLY EVERYTHING. I can't deny that it is abusable by scum. I could point to anything and claim it's abusable by scum. Lynches. Reasoning. Actions. Claiming. Please, name me something that isn't abusable by scum.It provides an easy cover for scum.You think you were scumhunting? What'd you do, RV RangerCado and then sit around telling him how bad he was? Oh wait, that actually happened, and you haven't really done anything since. You complained the game was slow, didn't fix that. You told people that you were allowed to ask stupid pointless questions, while also complaining about RP. So... Yeah, that's your game summary right now. Pretty depressing. That's why I think you're scum. Because you're just not participating. You're activelurking. RVS questions when people are voting for real. RVSing RangerCado and not really caring about the results of that. I'm actually glad you're voting me, because then you'll get a billion more chances to show everyone you're scum.
Instead of scumhunting, they can just vote for people with bad cases! All under the altruistic guise of critiquing them under threat of lynch.
Truly there's no possible way any member of the scum team would possibly abuse that to avoid engaging in the more difficult task of pretending to scumhunt.
See why I want you to try now? Because you haven't in the two weeks we've been playing. But, hey, now's your chance! Feel free to stand up at any point! Literally no one is stopping you.
Additionally, I hadn't had a scum suspect until recently, so I'd rather have used my vote on trying to make a player I didn't think was scum do better. Of course, you should know that, you asked me that question! But, alas, I don't believe you cared about the answer. In fact, Toaster's the one who ended up resolving the answer. You... just sorta asked more RVS questions.
This is not a response to the point I made.
I suppose in the absence of any reasonable response to something, you make a lot of noise and try to make a distraction.
Tell me, wubadub, that lynching people you don't suspect for having bad cases is not abusable by scum.
However, you're refusing to acknowledge my reasoning behind it, which you claim is flimsy, yet you don't show how. So, how is my reasoning flimsy? This is WHY things aren't abusable. If you don't even bother to look at the reasoning behind an action, how can you judge the action itself?
Or, we can play the "ignorance" game. You'll simply ignore all of my posts until something. Which is fine with me, because I am much louder than you.
Plus, it's an additional point for you to discuss, which I'm assuming you'll never get to, as you're still not trying.
It is a response to your statement. You said, and I quote:Me trying to improve Griffionday's case isn't because he's new. It's because he's playing the game. This isn't about helping a new player at all. I'll help anyone. Heck, hopefully you start trying, so I at least get a challenge. Maybe I'll help you do that? Or, maybe, you'll sit around doing nothing. Doing something for two weeks tends to make it a pattern, I hear.
This is also not a response to the question I had. Proof positive that you weren't actually interested in my answers, except as boxes of quotes that you can use to make lots of noise completely off-topic to their contents.
Why did I think responding to you would be a productive use of my time?
I suppose I should add, if you're that concerned about getting new players to learn, go IC a Beginner's Mafia.To which I responded, AND I QUOTE:
Why do you believe this is about new players at all?TO WHICH YOU RESPONDED, AND I QUOTE:
Believe what about new players?To which you have quoted. This is, in fact, a response to your statement. And question. But, nice try. Oh wait, no, it's not. Because you're still not trying. Please, Jim. You just don't care. Just admit it for everyone, so that they can slowly understand your level of apathy.
It's not a weak Day 1. It's a coasting Day 1. You're doing as little work as possible to get by. Even your attack on me is pathetic. You're still not trying. And every post you post is just proving it. Girl, you're still not getting it. Anybody that pays the slightest attention to you should notice how little work you're putting in.Wuba: While I think I get your points on Jim, just so I'm clear, please list your top three or so scum picks in order.
You do?
What are they?
Is it more than just wubadub saying I've had a weak Day 1?
In fact, look back at Jim's post history. She hasn't attempted to find an adequate lynch target the entire time. Even when she voted me, she put zero effort into trying to defend her vote. She just doesn't care.
Webadict//Toaster: This (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4501227#msg4501227) caught my eye. You both saw nothing significantly scummy earlier before those notes there?Nope. But, I wasn't paying as much attention as I should've been. So, I figured I'd get more involved. Now, I feel like I have a much better grasp on the game.
Wuba: While I think I get your points on Jim, just so I'm clear, please list your top three or so scum picks in order.Jim, Leafsnail. I don't have a third at the moment. It'd be silly to think too far ahead, anyway.
Also, do you actually get my points? Because I don't think I can just take your word for that. If you did, you'd at least implore Jim to try harder, regardless of whether you believe he's scum or not.
Post by: Leafsnail on August 21, 2013, 05:51:02 pm
Policy lynch? I think you're using that word wrong. I'm not proposing a policy lynch. In fact, I would very much not like to lynch her. But, I refuse to let her continue making a crappy case, and if I have to lynch her, then oh well, I guess she might learn something from it.Lynching someone because they're playing badly is a form of policy lynch. I don't really care what you call it, though.
But, I'm assuming you don't really care about that. I'm thinking big picture here, aren't I? Let's stick with the little picture. Little picture (okay, maybe slightly smaller picture) is this: She isn't lynched, but she doesn't learn. She is kept alive until some Day in the future, where people will think "Hey, why didn't we lynch her Day 1 again?" And then she'll be lynched. Then, she'll have accomplished nothing, we'll have lost a Day later in the game, where Days are far more important, and she'll have learned her lesson way later.This is ridiculous. To avoid wasting a lynch on Griffionday, you are going to waste a lynch on Griffionday. Days aren't really "more important" later in the game, incidentally. It can be easier to hit scum during later days due to more information, but it's better to hit scum as early as possible. Because if you lynch scum day one it reduces the mafia's rolepower in the night throughout the entire game, and it also gives you the possibility of associative tells on all future days. Thus it is madness to deliberately waste the day one lynch on someone you believe to be town.
The littler picture is that I might be wrong, and I'd rather not end up doubting myself later, so Today is a great Day to remove both a player that is making a poor case and appearing scummy to everyone.
The littlest picture is that I'm trying to get her to do something productive Today. If she doesn't, then she gets lynched, regardless of how town I believe her to be.
I don't know where you got the idea that I was being vague about it. Indeed, I've told her multiple times what would allow me to unvote her and allow her to be a functioning member of the Town. I don't believe I've been vague in explaining this either. If anything, I was simply not asked.I'm saying vague because you're being evasive as hell and refusing to admit you are pushing a policy lynch.
As for voting a lurker... really? Man, YOU'RE a lurker. Your posts are below average in just about all the important aspects. If it makes you feel better, I'll certainly vote you. I've got no problem with that. I have never not had a point to voting as I do, but voting someone for lurking would be stupidly lame. I'd rather they got modkilled. Which is simply a better option.I haven't been playing too well this game, mainly due to access issues. But you know what? I think I've contributed more to the town than you have. Because voting for people I think are scum. Fuck, I'd say the same about Griffionday. Any attempt to find scum is better than what you are doing.
I don't think lurkers will be modkilled in this game.
Now for the third point... The easiest answer is that there isn't enough evidence to do that. The best answer is that there isn't enough GOOD evidence to do it. I can certainly bring up your shoddy posting, contribution, understanding, and overall play, but you'll coast by making minimal effort until at least Tomorrow, posting things such as "PFP busy cant answrr" which I can't verify or counter, kill me Tonight, and then pretend nothing happened. Or WIFOM it. Or just make the Town retarded, as usual.I have never seen you take such a ridiculously defeatist attitude before. If you think I'm scum who will kill you tonight then you should be pushing to lynch me as hard as possible. Unless somehow lynching a town player will allow the others players in the game to lynch me??
The point is that I'd rather I fixed a problem we're having now that will continue to reoccur while I'm still alive to do it. I used to think this game was winnable by yourself. But it's not. No matter what team, alignment, or role you have in a game, you need to rely on other players. The players I need to rely on just happen to be the Town. And if they can't shape up their actions, then I wasn't going to win with flawless arguments anyway.You could try leading by example, eg by voting for someone you think is a mafia member.
Honestly, your posts are baffling me. It feels exactly like something you would write in the mafia chat. "Griffionday is making bad arguments, seems like a good mislynch candidate!"
Post by: Vector on August 21, 2013, 05:53:39 pm
Post by: Leafsnail on August 21, 2013, 05:58:53 pm
Hrmm... I agree with Webadict to a degree in that town people can be anti-town (zoomzoll in MasonsMafiaHackers) but not really here. Also Webadict doesn't seem to have a case on Jim.Is webadict mafia, though?
OTOH Jim's vote on Web was awfully speedy after LS's.
The other person I pursuing a line of inquiry with was Tiruin; who has been having difficulty posting with any frequency. I did excuse myself from finding other lines of inquiry to follow while waiting for her to return (the tunneling I was referring to) because I felt I was getting something on my other line of inquiry. This is of course poor play.I think you're still not quite grasping what I'm saying, but given webadict's actions I think you're probably town and I don't want to waste any more time with this discussion.
As to the other point, as Webadict showed, it is completely legal for scum to ask for the town wincon; so scum having the town wincon isn't impossible.
The bolded part is contradictory to the essence of this post. Why would someone attack the person, and not their case? Is there something wrong with attacking someone's case?Not at all. However, there is something wrong with only attacking someone's case and not their person if you believe that person is scum (because that means you're not trying to get them lynched). In that case, you should be trying to demonstrate that person is scum.
The fact that he was going along with the case he was attacking at the time only makes his actions more baffling.
Post by: zombie urist on August 21, 2013, 06:09:53 pm
@web in response to toaster what hapend to griffday?
@ls dunno i never could really read him
@grifday im asking for summary bc i dont inderstand the points ypu are making
pfp
Post by: Toaster on August 21, 2013, 07:34:05 pm
Wuba: While I think I get your points on Jim, just so I'm clear, please list your top three or so scum picks in order.Jim, Leafsnail. I don't have a third at the moment. It'd be silly to think too far ahead, anyway.
Also, do you actually get my points? Because I don't think I can just take your word for that. If you did, you'd at least implore Jim to try harder, regardless of whether you believe he's scum or not.
Let me see if I get this straight- this post (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4518908#msg4518908) is where it clicked for me. The post prior (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4517568#msg4517568) of yours I was about ready to vote you because your lead-in was bananas.
Basically, you suspect Jim because he, in your opinion:
RVed Ranger then pushed a weak case
Didn't do anything else
Voted over you for a bad reason
When pressed on the vote, gave a poor rationalization
Am I correct?
Jim: Web has ceased to vote Griffionday. What does that do to your case on him?
Post by: webadict on August 21, 2013, 08:08:12 pm
Lynching someone because they're playing badly is a form of policy lynch. I don't really care what you call it, though.Alright, let's use this definition of policy lynch. I wanted a policy lynch. Now what? There's still no reason to allow bad play. I am allowed to attack a player's case with the threat of a lynch, as that case is a threat to the Town, just the same. I don't care if you're Town or scum, having a bad case is not okay. The same goes for Jimgirl up there. At least you're trying now. Finally! All I wanted was a brain.
Alright, I want to make one point clear. Days are BY DESIGN more important later in the game. A Day that is lylo is INFINITELY more important than Day 1. I can name several reasons why this is so, if you want to argue.But, I'm assuming you don't really care about that. I'm thinking big picture here, aren't I? Let's stick with the little picture. Little picture (okay, maybe slightly smaller picture) is this: She isn't lynched, but she doesn't learn. She is kept alive until some Day in the future, where people will think "Hey, why didn't we lynch her Day 1 again?" And then she'll be lynched. Then, she'll have accomplished nothing, we'll have lost a Day later in the game, where Days are far more important, and she'll have learned her lesson way later.This is ridiculous. To avoid wasting a lynch on Griffionday, you are going to waste a lynch on Griffionday. Days aren't really "more important" later in the game, incidentally. It can be easier to hit scum during later days due to more information, but it's better to hit scum as early as possible. Because if you lynch scum day one it reduces the mafia's rolepower in the night throughout the entire game, and it also gives you the possibility of associative tells on all future days. Thus it is madness to deliberately waste the day one lynch on someone you believe to be town.
The littler picture is that I might be wrong, and I'd rather not end up doubting myself later, so Today is a great Day to remove both a player that is making a poor case and appearing scummy to everyone.
The littlest picture is that I'm trying to get her to do something productive Today. If she doesn't, then she gets lynched, regardless of how town I believe her to be.
Now that that's been cleared up, I'll disagree with your last point. It is not madness to deliberately waste a Day 1 lynch. As proof, Org was an example of a great policy lynch. Why? Because he was often times Town that screwed around so much that he eventually lynched during lylo in just about every game. Or he was scum and never lynched. Org was a drain on the Town, and he was useless.
As such, the point in this one is that while I believe Griffionday to be Town, many people will not. And if I'm dead, I'm not going to be there to prevent her lynching. So, I'd much rather I simply threatened her to do better. That way, I don't have to defend her. She'll hopefully be able to do it herself. And she'll hopefully bring about much better cases.
Oh, really? I just prevented a lynch on a player I didn't want lynched, and hopefully made Griffionday to play better. What have you done again? Voted someone you think was scum? Oh boy, I'm doing that too. So, I can say for certain that I'm still doing more than you.As for voting a lurker... really? Man, YOU'RE a lurker. Your posts are below average in just about all the important aspects. If it makes you feel better, I'll certainly vote you. I've got no problem with that. I have never not had a point to voting as I do, but voting someone for lurking would be stupidly lame. I'd rather they got modkilled. Which is simply a better option.I haven't been playing too well this game, mainly due to access issues. But you know what? I think I've contributed more to the town than you have. Because voting for people I think are scum. Fuck, I'd say the same about Griffionday. Any attempt to find scum is better than what you are doing.
Again, you're wrong. If a player plays better, then I have done more than enough, regardless of what you think. Not only that, but your point is flawed in that according to your very definition, I have done, at the very least, AT LEAST AS GOOD AS YOU. Outlogicked? Good, then we're even for the policy lynch garbage you're trying to pin to me. See how this doesn't get anywhere? No, I doubt you do.
Oh my God, no you did not.Now for the third point... The easiest answer is that there isn't enough evidence to do that. The best answer is that there isn't enough GOOD evidence to do it. I can certainly bring up your shoddy posting, contribution, understanding, and overall play, but you'll coast by making minimal effort until at least Tomorrow, posting things such as "PFP busy cant answrr" which I can't verify or counter, kill me Tonight, and then pretend nothing happened. Or WIFOM it. Or just make the Town retarded, as usual.I have never seen you take such a ridiculously defeatist attitude before. If you think I'm scum who will kill you tonight then you should be pushing to lynch me as hard as possible. Unless somehow lynching a town player will allow the others players in the game to lynch me??
This game is the entire reason why I do not believe in the Town. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=48208.0) That game was handed to them. On a silver platter. And they screwed it up.
Because of that, I never fully trusted the Town to do a single thing. So, I do not want to see bad play happening right in front of me. Because of this, I have no doubt in your ability to mentally retard the Town. Don't even try.
Also, I was busy on a vacation until recently. I even mentioned it in the post you freaked out over.
I doubt I have the evidence to lynch the two of you. Leafsnail maybe, but I don't have the resources to do that right now. You I can deal with later.Those resources happened to be time. Plus, you were pretty uneventful until recently, and didn't need as much evidence to point out how terrible you were playing. Now, you're trying, and I applaud that.
I could also tell them what they're doing wrong, directly. That seems to work better, and is actually LESS scummy than being indirect about it.The point is that I'd rather I fixed a problem we're having now that will continue to reoccur while I'm still alive to do it. I used to think this game was winnable by yourself. But it's not. No matter what team, alignment, or role you have in a game, you need to rely on other players. The players I need to rely on just happen to be the Town. And if they can't shape up their actions, then I wasn't going to win with flawless arguments anyway.You could try leading by example, eg by voting for someone you think is a mafia member.
Honestly, your posts are baffling me. It feels exactly like something you would write in the mafia chat. "Griffionday is making bad arguments, seems like a good mislynch candidate!"
Now, this second part, I'm going to need explained to me.
You're saying that my posts are something I would write into mafiachat (Just an fyi, I would never, ever write that, because that's nothing like me, but let's assume the message is similar [I'd never write that same message either, but again, assume]) However, I'm telling everyone... in the thread, mind you... that Griffionday is playing poorly, and would make a good mislynch candidate. I then, in the thread, tell everyone that I don't believe Griffionday is scum. All while telling Griffionday what he should do to make himself look better. In the thread.
Because, that argument, right there, doesn't make any sense for a scum to do. I don't know where you might think that this would make good scumplay, but it wouldn't. This would make me the worst scum player that had ever existed. Because not only am I telling everyone he's a good mislynch target, I'm also telling him how to play better, so that he doesn't get mislynched later. I just... How do you guys even think of these things? How do you conclude people are scum without thinking like a scum? Where would you ever conclude that this would be a scum play to make?
If the answer to any of these isn't some sort of frozen over Hell, then I question your ability to properly find scum. ... But then again, I'm like some sort of WIFOM god, so I guess I can't even bother with that rationale... Curse my lack of foresight! I can't help that I play like scum regardless of my alignment, but oh well. I'm fine with being right this time.
Wuba (and Jim):Those are, indeed, my main points. However, I'd change the second one to be about that he is voting me with bad reasoning. The technicalities are stupid to point out, so I'll just let it go.Wuba: While I think I get your points on Jim, just so I'm clear, please list your top three or so scum picks in order.Jim, Leafsnail. I don't have a third at the moment. It'd be silly to think too far ahead, anyway.
Also, do you actually get my points? Because I don't think I can just take your word for that. If you did, you'd at least implore Jim to try harder, regardless of whether you believe he's scum or not.
Let me see if I get this straight- this post (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4518908#msg4518908) is where it clicked for me. The post prior (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4517568#msg4517568) of yours I was about ready to vote you because your lead-in was bananas.
Basically, you suspect Jim because he, in your opinion:
RVed Ranger then pushed a weak case
Didn't do anything else
Voted over you for a bad reason
When pressed on the vote, gave a poor rationalization
Am I correct?
Post by: Vector on August 22, 2013, 01:24:11 am
Day end is scheduled for Thursday at 12:00 (-8 GMT), in 12 hours. Six requests for extension required. One more extension available.
Post by: Jim Groovester on August 22, 2013, 01:35:27 am
Jim: Web has ceased to vote Griffionday. What does that do to your case on him?
Nothing, really. Instead of trying to dig stuff up on his suspects (myself and Leafsnail), he decided to vote somebody he didn't suspect (Griffionday) for stupid reasons. Up until that point he was sitting on his ass doing pretty much nothing.
Oh, but now that somebody voted him, and even better, he's tied for the lynch, oh, now he has motivation to play.
What do you call somebody who's passive, makes bad cases, and only kicks it into gear when he's in trouble? Scum.
Extend because the day ends tomorrow and I won't be around for the deadline and there are like a million people who could be voting but aren't because they're lazy fuckers. I'd rather not see the day extended if the tie gets broken.
I'll respond to wubadub tomorrow if the day doesn't end.
Post by: zombie urist on August 22, 2013, 02:03:12 am
Post by: Griffionday on August 22, 2013, 02:22:19 am
Web, thanks for the link: Dakarian, as always, finds his way to speak to the heart of the game.
There's three things to remember as town though:
1. The hunt is ALL! Hunting scum is the highest priority. A townie should be willing to do anything it takes if they truly believe that they will catch scum.
HOWEVER!
2. Any action you perform that is 'not pro-town' is a risk you place both on yourself (in getting lynched) and in the town (for wasting a lynch on yourself). Any action that you perform that is distinctly anti-town runs the risk of destroying the very town you wished to save regardless of whether you actually locate scum.
3. Every action..EVERY SINGLE ACTION you do and do not do creates suspicion. Unless the town is too weak (and thus half lost already), they will suspect you for everything you do no matter what. Part of being a good townie is to expect and understand that suspicion (in fact, you should fear for your town if the suspicion never comes). This goes triple should your actions not be 'pro-town'.
The result is this: if you know you aren't acting fully pro-town but you ARE after scum then that's fine, but you should be ready for the town's inevitable attack against you. You should NOT expect them to simply accept your anti-town behavior as 'standard' since that's turning off their paranoia in order to give you a 'pass'. That's the exact point where a good scum, even fully identified, will slip away.
Instead, you have a nasty balance. You need to find a way to use your abilities to find scum while making sure you don't confuse the town OR disrupt its scumhunt. No matter WHAT evidence you have, if you confuse the town or mess up its scumhunting attempts while they try to figure you out then the mafia will slip out. The best way is to be readable. You don't need to 'act town' like some say, but you DO need people to read you and go "Ok, I can see town doing that." They may add a "...rather (messedup/stupid/annoying/anti-town/worthlesswasteoflife) town but still town" but so long as they can read you as town then you can do what you need to do.
It takes sympathy, a touch of empathy, a large batch of public relations, a ton of honesty, and a cool head. It can be done even when performing most anti-town behaviors.
No.. it MUST be done. If you can't, then you're better off learning how to become more 'pro-town' so that you'll be readable. A readable but weak-hunting player is better for the town than an unreadable but powerful scumhunter.
Post by: Solifuge on August 22, 2013, 02:51:25 am
Lady Solifuge's Day 1 Notebook (Part 1/2):
Spoiler: Lady Cado-Urist: (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Lady Okami: (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Lady Toaster: (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Lady Lenglon (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Lady Ottofar (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Lady GriffinPup (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Lady Griffionday (click to show/hide)
My suspicions remain firmly on Lady Griffionday. But why, you ask? After all, she cast a vote against Not-Quite-There, totally convinced in her guilt beyond any doubt, because NQT neglected to answer a question (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4490318#msg4490318). Naturally, when NQT used the verb "Emerges" (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4493449#msg4493449) in a sentence, it only strengthened m'lady Griffionday's suspicions. But that was not all, no... when NQT failed to notice how Lady Griffionday was intentionally leaving suspicious tells for NQT, as a test of her guilt, (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4507498#msg4507498) it was clear that NQT must have been the villain. Only a villain wouldn't have noticed all those entirely intentional tells, no?
My ladies, if you are unfamiliar with sarcasm in your homelands, understand that I mean the opposite of what I say here. The intent is to point out how ridiculous Griffionday's "Unshakable Case" against NQT has been this whole time. When you add to this how she began focusing all her energies on protecting herself, apologizing for her mistakes, and shifting blame on to others... or how whenever confronted, instead of presenting facts and observations to defend herself, she instead asks questions to cast doubt on the theories of others? Or how, when confronted about her case on NQT, is somehow simultaneously convinced that her case was completely right, while also being unable to explain it at all?
Please, let us just be rid of her.
Post by: Solifuge on August 22, 2013, 03:09:56 am
Ladies Lenglon and Griffionday both cast their vote against someone else for not answering a question.
Lady Lenglon defended Griffionday publicly (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4515715#msg4515715); she claimed that Griffionday's case against Not-Quite-There was entirely valid as pressure, though it was not good enough to "lynch" NQT. However, that I found it suspicious was apparently reason enough for her to cast a vote against me. So Lady Lenglon must find Griffionday's case simultaneously valid enough to go after me for doubting it, while also not valid enough that "lynching" NQT based on it was a good idea. A very strange contradiction indeed.
Lady Okami's only vote has been against NQT, because Griffionday's Case was "Compelling". At this point, Griffionday's case against NQT was that she hadn't answered a question, and used the verb "Emerges" in a sentence. This is either the height of laziness, or incredibly suspicious.
Post by: Lenglon on August 22, 2013, 03:59:56 am
Lenglon:Summary @ bottom of relevant post, as always.
Are there any take-away points in that block of RP? The lack of paragraphs makes it unreadable.
"Well, Lady Tiruin, you um, were asking how emotion ties in to identifying people of foul intent? Well, it depends on how much someone invests in what they're doing. Emotion is another way to express ourselves, but if people aren't using it, then it doesn't do anything. If someone doesn't feel strongly about what they're doing, then just like any other kind of communication, you aren't going to find anything out if nobody uses it. However, it can be useful even then, because when you tie yourself emotionally into what you're doing, then you reveal a potental weakness to someone who wants to act in an underhanded way. As a result, it can be rather tempting for someone who doesn't normally engage in emotional conversation to join into one with me, in an attempt to use this potental weakness to control me. I try to look for exactly that kind of behavior, and when I feel someone acting like that, I look at what they're trying to make me do. If it's something self-serving, then I try to call them out on it, and on their unusual change in behavior in the first place from acting that way. I also feel that, unlike most other forms of communication, I'm nowhere near as far behind the rest of us in understanding these kinds of signals. It's not a normal communication style, and so although I'm not all that experienced at it, neither are the rest of us. The same can't be said for the more normal styles, which I know I'm far behind in understanding, although I'm trying to catch up as fast as I can."
"Lady Solifuge, your most recent antics are most frustrating to me. You are greatly overstating what I have said in defense of Lady GriffDay, and are still refusing to answer my most basic of queries. How am I supposed to trust your intentions when you exhibit that kind of behavior? You concern me because you never answered even the most basic of queries I asked you, and simply acknowledged that I asked them and sidestepped the issues. Just now in fact you pointed out what I was saying and asking of you, and yet still haven't answered. I don't understand what is so hard about my questions, but clearly something about them is giving you trouble answering them. What is that? What do you have to hide? You are also speaking out in large volumes against Lady GriffDay against how she is entirely too focused on Lady NQT, while doing the exact same thing yourself regarding Lady GriffDay! I can't understand how you can see the same behavior you find unacceptable in someone else acceptable in your own person. I find it more likely that you don't honestly believe what you're saying, and are simply focusing on a target of opportunity, someone who others also have spoken against and who attacking will help you blend into the crowd. It feels to me that you aren't trying to find out who is acting upon foul intent, but are simply trying remain here for the good of yourself rather than the good of our beloved Prince. That is something that I simply cannot allow."
Lenglon:Tiruin:it depends on how much the person you're attempting to determine the alignment of invests themselves emotionally into the game. It also gives you an extra handle to bait someone into trying to manipulate you with assuming you tie yourself emotionally into the game. If someone who never gets emotional while playing gets emotional while interacting with me, then I start checking to see if they're trying to manipulate me towards a goal, and try to identify what that goal is. It's an extra communication channel, if other people never use it for anything, then it is useless. But if they do, then you can use it just like any other, and since other people don't use it much I have less of an experience disadvantage there.Tiruin:I think RP makes for a very poor diversion, and that most of the gripe against it is nothing more than the desire to have people write posts that are easy to skim over and don't require properly reading them. I think it is useful for learning what emotion someone is feeling as they post, particularly when they switch to and from using RP.(I love how you did a textual then a RP verse.)
Intriguing.
Could you say emotion plays, or is a definitive factor in scumhunting? When could you do so, and when could you generally excuse it?
Other interesting things to note:Soli: You are misrepresenting me in your summary. I am voting you over two issues, evasion and hypocrisy. You evaded my questions earlier, and your most recent post evaded them again. You are also accusing someone of tunneling while tunneling yourself.
Ladies Lenglon and Griffionday both cast their vote against someone else for not answering a question.
Lady Lenglon defended Griffionday publicly (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4515715#msg4515715); she claimed that Griffionday's case against Not-Quite-There was entirely valid as pressure, though it was not good enough to "lynch" NQT. However, that I found it suspicious was apparently reason enough for her to cast a vote against me. So Lady Lenglon must find Griffionday's case simultaneously valid enough to go after me for doubting it, while also not valid enough that "lynching" NQT based on it was a good idea. A very strange contradiction indeed.
Extend
Post by: Solifuge on August 22, 2013, 04:41:37 am
Solifuge: you dropped your RP almost completely when you answered that. why?
Solifuge: you had no follow-up to the questions you asked me, why? what did you learn from them?
((You were upset that I "dropped RP" which I never did. For starters, though I don't have a problem with what you're doing, I'm not portraying a character the same way you are. I'm just playing the game as normal, but using terms that make sense given the whole princess scenario. Whenever I have to address the game itself in a meta-sense, I'm doing the good old fashioned double-parenthesis OOC Annotation. This aside, my "RP" has never changed, and I don't see where you see that. Also, I don't understand your obsession with reading into this kind of flavor as though it was the best place to look for information. That strikes me as a very poor scumhunting strategy at best))
You were upset that I didn't ask you more questions than I did. I'm sorry if I somehow offended you, but I had no need or interest in asking you anything else. I'd wanted to hear something from you to get to know you better, you obliged, and we were done. What more did you want me to ask you? And why? Why are you so worried about what I think of you? Shouldn't you be more concerned with finding someone suspicious? Do you even have any suspicions?
Also, feel free to explain how you feel that Lady Griffionday's case on Lady Not-Quite-There is valid, but not lynchworthy... but how you think I am somehow suspicious for pointing out how weak it was, and for using it in my case against Griff. Why are you spending your time and energy protecting Griffionday, instead of looking for things that you find suspicious? Just what is it about her case that you find so valid?
Post by: Lenglon on August 22, 2013, 05:40:54 am
Ignoring your questions? Have you forgotten what you asked? Do you even remember what you are upset about?Solifuge:you are misrepresenting my stance. I think it is ok for GriffDay to use a weak case as cause to investigate and ask questions, because doing so prompts discussion and allows us to gather a lot of information about the people involved. I think your actions, which have been phrased to stifle discussion, are not acceptable. You are just going for an easy lynch, and your hypocritical tunneling accusation of GriffDay is further evidence of this. You also have yet to explain the theory behind your RVS questions to me. How do you expect to learn something from them? Why do they matter more than asking me if I like the color blue or other such nonsense? what did you learn from them? I asked you this before and you've evaded it repeatedly, as a result I think you were just marking time, scumbag. who am I suspicious of? I'm suspicious of you, the person I'm voting for and talking to.Solifuge: you dropped your RP almost completely when you answered that. why?
Solifuge: you had no follow-up to the questions you asked me, why? what did you learn from them?
((You were upset that I "dropped RP" which I never did. For starters, though I don't have a problem with what you're doing, I'm not portraying a character the same way you are. I'm just playing the game as normal, but using terms that make sense given the whole princess scenario. Whenever I have to address the game itself in a meta-sense, I'm doing the good old fashioned double-parenthesis OOC Annotation. This aside, my "RP" has never changed, and I don't see where you see that. Also, I don't understand your obsession with reading into this kind of flavor as though it was the best place to look for information. That strikes me as a very poor scumhunting strategy at best))
You were upset that I didn't ask you more questions than I did. I'm sorry if I somehow offended you, but I had no need or interest in asking you anything else. I'd wanted to hear something from you to get to know you better, you obliged, and we were done. What more did you want me to ask you? And why? Why are you so worried about what I think of you? Shouldn't you be more concerned with finding someone suspicious? Do you even have any suspicions?
Also, feel free to explain how you feel that Lady Griffionday's case on Lady Not-Quite-There is valid, but not lynchworthy... but how you think I am somehow suspicious for pointing out how weak it was, and for using it in my case against Griff. Why are you spending your time and energy protecting Griffionday, instead of looking for things that you find suspicious? Just what is it about her case that you find so valid?
Post by: webadict on August 22, 2013, 06:29:02 am
ugh im not in the mood for extend webadict none of your votes explanatoons really make sense to meLiterally the most retarded vote made in this game past RVS. This is why I have no faith in the Town. Because they are, without a doubt, all idiots. I don't know why anyone WOULDN'T think that. But, what can I do? I have to trust these morons regardless.
Town, please read:
Look back at Jim's case. You'll notice he doesn't care about finding scum one bit. He's only interested in lynching me, and that's where his reasonings come from. They'll be generic reasons, none of which is a meta-tell for me, and, in fact, I am known for doing things such as this regardless of alignment. You'll also notice his distinct lack of trying, but I have no faith in any of your abilities to see that.
Lies.Jim: Web has ceased to vote Griffionday. What does that do to your case on him?
Nothing, really. Instead of trying to dig stuff up on his suspects (myself and Leafsnail), he decided to vote somebody he didn't suspect (Griffionday) for stupid reasons. Up until that point he was sitting on his ass doing pretty much nothing.
I didn't suspect you nor Leafsnail until after I had voted Griffionday. The whole reason I suspected you two was because I had become more active in the game.
You also have not explained how the reasons are both flimsy and stupid, so you're simply evading questions now.
Also, please try harder.
Oh, but now that somebody voted him, and even better, he's tied for the lynch, oh, now he has motivation to play.No, I inserted myself into the game BY voting Griffionday. Having a case gave me motivation to play. Having someone to ask questions gave me motivation to play. Having someone that asked questions gave me motivation to play. So... more lies. Woo. I don't know whether you're just not trying or what, but it's super disheartening that you, a player that thinks she's experienced at the game, are doing less work then just about every other player. Maybe you need a Beginner Mafia?
What do you call somebody who's passive, makes bad cases, and only kicks it into gear when he's in trouble? Scum.Wait, how am I passive? You're the one being passive. Am I seriously watching this? You're evading questions, not justifying your case, and now you're, at best, exaggerating my negatives. I'm the one that CHOSE to be MORE active. You haven't done anything! I am seriously in disbelief at this. You're not even trying a single bit.
Extend because the day ends tomorrow and I won't be around for the deadline and there are like a million people who could be voting but aren't because they're lazy fuckers. I'd rather not see the day extended if the tie gets broken.Yeah, you wouldn't want to see the Day Extended, because then you'd have to respond to me. So, everything I've said about you is proven in a single post. You just. Don't. Care.
I'll respond to wubadub tomorrow if the day doesn't end.
My suspicions remain firmly on Lady Griffionday. But why, you ask? After all, she cast a vote against Not-Quite-There, totally convinced in her guilt beyond any doubt, because NQT neglected to answer a question (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4490318#msg4490318). Naturally, when NQT used the verb "Emerges" (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4493449#msg4493449) in a sentence, it only strengthened m'lady Griffionday's suspicions. But that was not all, no... when NQT failed to notice how Lady Griffionday was intentionally leaving suspicious tells for NQT, as a test of her guilt, (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4507498#msg4507498) it was clear that NQT must have been the villain. Only a villain wouldn't have noticed all those entirely intentional tells, no?Please don't vote Griffionday. That's just a wasted vote at this moment. No one plans to switch to her at all. I'd appreciate if you took a stance on me.
Post by: webadict on August 22, 2013, 07:25:48 am
I didn't suspect you nor Leafsnail until after I had voted Griffionday.
On that side, though, what would you say if I didn't think anyone was significantly scummy?
GriffiondayThis is when I became active. Notice my posting intervals and content before and afterwards. I became more involved, and that's when I got a better grasp on the game. I even explain, later, that
Additionally, I hadn't had a scum suspect until recently, so I'd rather have used my vote on trying to make a player I didn't think was scum do better. Of course, you should know that, you asked me that question!So, I have no idea where she's getting this information that I had two suspects before I voted oh wait, I totally do (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4517260#msg4517260). Lazy bum didn't even bother reading my answer to this question, clearly:
Tiruin, Solifuge, webadict, the day ends tomorrow. How's your lists of suspects shaping up, and who's on it?If she had, wouldn't she have noticed I said no one?
You also have not explained how the reasons are both flimsy and stupid, so you're simply evading questions now.No explanation on flimsiness. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4518355#msg4518355)
You can bet she won't bother explaining stupid.
Voting and lynching people you don't suspect for making bad cases is idiotic and scummy, and no amount of flimsy justifications and rationalizations will ever support that.
Alright, let's start with the part where you think it's a good idea to lynch players you don't suspect.Also, can't fight circular logic. Which is probably why she can't explain it.
Let's also stop there, since that's all that needs to be said.
No, I inserted myself into the game BY voting Griffionday. Having a case gave me motivation to play. Having someone to ask questions gave me motivation to play. Having someone that asked questions gave me motivation to play. So... more lies. Woo. I don't know whether you're just not trying or what, but it's super disheartening that you, a player that thinks she's experienced at the game, are doing less work then just about every other player. Maybe you need a Beginner Mafia?Notice my posting habits before and after this post (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4503746#msg4503746). Before it, I was basically not feeling the game. I didn't have much motivation to play. I was mostly thinking about what Toaster had said a few posts above it (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4501230#msg4501230). I did not feel like this was appropriate behavior. So, I took steps to become involved.
Wait, how am I passive? You're the one being passive. Am I seriously watching this? You're evading questions, not justifying your case, and now you're, at best, exaggerating my negatives. I'm the one that CHOSE to be MORE active. You haven't done anything! I am seriously in disbelief at this. You're not even trying a single bit.Again, before this post (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4503746#msg4503746), I would have no defense against being passive. However, I am far more active than Jim Groovester, who sat on her case on RangerCado since RVS (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4492376#msg4492376). It can be called a RV because, as Jim puts it:
I also find it strange that your vote goes to me without any questions or further evidence. What else have I done that you find scummy?
Gotta start somewhere.
Yeah, you wouldn't want to see the Day Extended, because then you'd have to respond to me. So, everything I've said about you is proven in a single post. You just. Don't. Care.
I won't be around for the deadlineShe should respond to me regardless of the Day ending or not. If she cared about her case, it'd be something she'd do. But, no points awarded if she pretends like her case wasn't scummy at all or that she tried. Because she didn't.
I'd rather not see the day extended if the tie gets broken.
I'll respond to wubadub tomorrow if the day doesn't end.
Post by: webadict on August 22, 2013, 07:52:51 am
That's not the question because I refuse to extend on principle now. If I die, I die, but whatever you morons think you're doing, stop doing it and look at the cases and reasons for unvoting people. I realize you're all headless chickens, flailing around, but maybe y'all should try to do something bigger.
Anyhow, I probably won't be paying attention when the Day ends, but if you decide you want to weigh in on what you think, that'd be both appreciated and appropriate. If not, well, thanks for not participating in the game. The Day is ending soon.
Also, Okami no Rei did not ask for a replacement, so not prodding him is not okay. Also, if he IS asking for a replacement, please unvote him and add another replacement. He hasn't posted in a lot of hours.
Post by: Vector on August 22, 2013, 01:12:03 pm
Okami no Rei
Leafsnail
Tiruin
Lenglon
Griffinpup - NotQuiteThere, Toaster
zombieurist -
Griffionday - Solifuge
notquitethere
Solifuge - Lenglon
Jim Groovester - Webadict
Ottofar
Toaster
Webadict - Leafsnail, JimGroovester, zombieurist
Not voting - Griffionday, griffinpup, Ottofar [needs replacement], Okami no Rei [needs replacement], Tiruin [hurricane]
Day end is scheduled for Thursday at 12:00 (-8 GMT), in 1 hour. Three more requests for extension required out of six. One more extension available.
Also, Okami no Rei did not ask for a replacement, so not prodding him is not okay. Also, if he IS asking for a replacement, please unvote him and add another replacement. He hasn't posted in a lot of hours.
Yeah, there was some confusion really not worth detailing here, which I was waiting on, but he seems to have asked for a replacement--so I'm updating the materials.
Post by: Solifuge on August 22, 2013, 01:48:07 pm
I don't believe Lady Webadict is being particularly suspicious here; certainly not enough to cast a vote against her. I don't see a strong reason behind Lady Leafsnail and Lady Groovester's convictions, and I suspect Lady Cado-Urist's vote is just born of laziness, as she has no real suspects. And no one seems to be able to spare any attention for Lady Griffionday's absolutely suspicious behavior.
As such... I'll cast my lot in against Lady Griffinpup. She has all but disappeared from the gathering. Yes I am aware of the vote count, and no I don't see the reason behind getting rid of Webadict. I'm willing to accept responsibility for what happens as a result.
Post by: Solifuge on August 22, 2013, 01:58:31 pm
Solifuge:you are misrepresenting my stance. I think it is ok for GriffDay to use a weak case as cause to investigate and ask questions, because doing so prompts discussion and allows us to gather a lot of information about the people involved. I think your actions, which have been phrased to stifle discussion, are not acceptable. You are just going for an easy lynch, and your hypocritical tunneling accusation of GriffDay is further evidence of this. You also have yet to explain the theory behind your RVS questions to me. How do you expect to learn something from them? Why do they matter more than asking me if I like the color blue or other such nonsense? what did you learn from them? I asked you this before and you've evaded it repeatedly, as a result I think you were just marking time, scumbag. who am I suspicious of? I'm suspicious of you, the person I'm voting for and talking to.
It wasn't just that Lady Griffionday used a weak argument. It was that she clung to that argument and tried to lead a vote to get rid of someone based on it. That isn't "putting pressure" on someone, that's trying to go for an "easy lynch". Moreover, she has been exhibiting a high degree of self-preservation without actually trying to investigate anything... just wheedling with others to protect herself, while charging towards NQT like a bull with blinders on. I don't understand how you can express such a double standard here, forgiving and even supporting her actions, while condemning me for the same... especially when she and I have not been doing the same thing at all! You need to be paying more attention to what you're saying, I think. And perhaps what other people are saying.
Post by: Vector on August 22, 2013, 02:00:03 pm
Okami no Rei
Leafsnail
Tiruin
Lenglon
Griffinpup - NotQuiteThere, Toaster, Solifuge
zombieurist
Griffionday
notquitethere
Solifuge - Lenglon
Jim Groovester - Webadict
Ottofar
Toaster
Webadict - Leafsnail, JimGroovester, zombieurist
Not voting - Griffionday, griffinpup, Ottofar [needs replacement], Okami no Rei [needs replacement], Tiruin [hurricane]
Webadict has been lynched. Please hold for end-of-day processing.
Post by: Vector on August 22, 2013, 05:19:57 pm
"The first sign that something was amiss came when a girl asked Horatio to take out an old rug from storage, that had--been a favorite of my older brother's. It seemed strange, almost territorial or possessive. I was discomfited. . . it seemed she was trying to tell me something, with the old river-rug that looked so much like fair Ophelia's final resting place."
"Horatio?"
For the first time that evening, the Prince smiles fondly.
"Yes, he was my manservant. We were boys together--his family had been in bondage to mine for generations. He was cold and upright, perhaps, at times bereft of passion or fellow-feeling, but he knew me better than any other. And, though his kindness had little warmth in it, he was always by my side.
"He comforted me when my parents died, and again when my brothers left, and again that evening. . . for as I said, as I said the worst was yet to come.
"He came to me later that evening, and told me that one of the girls would not leave off begging for the flesh of a white swan.
"So I sent him away for the bird, and he returned some time later pale and covered in white feathers head to foot, and told me the deed was done. And I was glad, to bring a little pleasure and peace to the thirteen girls assembled, and perhaps bring their thoughts away from the condition of my castle, and to a warmth of fellow-feeling."
Vektor tries to sigh in a way that would sound indulgent rather than impatient--for after all, this princely tale was not sordid enough to bring in customers like "Legend of the Bleeding Nine." Truth be told, he is bored.
The Prince drones on.
"We assembled at the table, twelve girls, myself, Horatio--and it did not shock me that the thirteenth girl was absent, since another told me that she was feeling ill. No, that evening we were fifteen at that long table made for fifty, for Mother Death took her position at an empty seat. . . punishment for bounty we did not find others to share with? I cannot know. . . I do not know."
"You, a Prince, believe that legend?"
The Prince drones on.
"Yes, fifteen at a long table made for fifty, and more Death alight than I could have imagined, places more left empty than could be rightly arranged for visiting ghosts, for my father and family, friends, and the chefs brought out a magnificent swan. It was heavy enough that it took three boys to carry, spectacular in size, swimming in drippings and dressed a treat. The scent was marvelously rich. If you served such a bird at your tavern, you would never sell a drop of ale again.
"A white swan. . . a feast.
"The first cut, from just below the wing, was given to Horatio to taste. I remember that he smiled at me, a little, before raising the first morsel to his lips. We were all eager. It had been an exhausting day. The girls were nervous and I was. . . somewhat overwrought.
"He smiled at me, a little, and tasted, closing his eyes and chewing. He swallowed. He could not help a deep smile of satisfaction, the sort that so seldom crossed his face. 'Not bad,' he said, and I am sure he was about to say 'No poison' when the first girl began to scream. You see, on the table's silver platter laid a magnificent corpse, cut off at the knees, missing her head. . . and wounded in the side, where Horatio had carved his cut. She must have been a pale girl. Beautifully arranged. Exquisitely cooked. Swimming in drippings. Golden-brown."
Vektor swallows.
"I see," he says, and then thoughtlessly thinking of future profits, adds: "And did you eat her?"
The Prince struggles to master himself, unable to look away from a point just below Aureliusz Vektor's doughty right shoulder, and finally drinks down the vodka with a hiss.
"No," he says, "We did not."
You are Webadict, the White Swan. Preternaturally graceful, innocent, solemn, delicate, demure. . . anyone would love you and want to take you for their wife. You came here to offer yourself to the Prince... well, no, you certainly wouldn't be that direct. You came to place yourself in his presence, wear your best perfume and flutter your best fan, and find out what would happen.
The other girls mostly weren't all that pretty, which was a positive. They had nice personalities and good hair, maybe, but they weren't... well, you know. You couldn't say it. That would betray your legendary humility.
Unfortunately, one of the girls who showed up was your rival, The Black Swan. You fought her over another prince a while ago, and it was all very tragic, and then finally you pretended to commit suicide to get her off the scent, but the prince killed himself in sympathy and you were both out a prince. Boo.
Anyway.
You want this Prince, who has nice looks and an expensive castle, and you very much don't want The Black Swan to have him.
In fact, you'd like it if SHE killed herself this time.
Well, no. You wouldn't like it, per se. It would be awfully sad not to have a rival anymore. You would be sure to cry and flutter your fan very gracefully, but unartfully, the way one does when beset by true tragedy--as is proper when one has lost a sister.
You are town. You win when all threats to the Prince are gone.
You have a one-shot kill, but you actually aren't very good at this killing thing. So: choose a target during the Night, and set it off during some subsequent Day. You may change targets during any Night phase, provided that you haven't used the kill yet.
Night will last until Sunday at noon, in a hope of getting our two necessary replacements in the intervening time. Send in your night actions ASAP so I can start writing PMs.
Post by: Vector on August 24, 2013, 11:20:53 pm
Post by: Vector on August 25, 2013, 03:29:14 am
So, without further ado: "Please do send in your night actions so that the game can move forward."
(I think I may have all of them, but I wanted to be polite just to make sure)
Post by: Vector on August 26, 2013, 05:05:40 am
"I did not sleep that night. I was--I feared that if I left him, he would do something rash. He did not oft show his passions, as I have said. And, as I realized so clearly then, the man I had been leaning on had one else. He served me in perfect loyalty, a loyalty I did not deserve, and in return... what, an solitary room in an empty castle?"
"I see," says Vektor, trying not to yawn in the Prince's face. "That is certainly a very sad tale. An almost unbelievable enchantment. Consider your vodka paid for in full."
"Are you not listening?" says the Prince, rising from his stool. His sword clanks at his side. "Listen to me! Old man, I. . . I order you to--"
"Young man," says Vektor, "If I say no, and you cut me down with that knife, you will have killed a barkeep for his exhaustion."
To his credit, the Prince blushes.
"I have lost my manners," he says. "I--would ask that you listen to me, as a companion. Please. I am accustomed rather to listening to tales, rather than telling them, and--"
He begins to shake a little, and cannot move his blue eyes from where they have fixed on Vektor's brown.
"I lost my last brother that morning," he says. "I have no one left. I have been mourning for months--mother, father, uncle, friends, brothers. I cannot tell if my hair is white with ash or shock, anymore, it seems all the same. And I ran. I am a coward. But I could not face so much unfeeling death. And I am no troubadour to gild mankind's raw passion with poetry, but a mere man who has lost his family and his way. Won't you listen to me, ol--barkeep? Please, sir, I will pay for your wares, and I regret your time, but please, sir, spare me some fellow-feeling."
"My name is Aureliusz," says Vektor, and pours him a glass of mead. The Prince sits and sips his liquor. "You have a story like every other, lad, full of love and death. Tell on."
"We found my long-lost brother dead the next morning," the Prince says slowly. "His stomach was cut, the entrails mangled by both blade and pressure, and his throat was cut. He lay on a rug he had asked Horatio to take from storage, where I had put it away--a rug to which my elder brother was particularly partial. A rug like water, now stained with his blood. He had been dressed as a woman. The window was open, but so was the door. I was unsure if his spirit had been able to depart--or if it was stuck in that castle with us."
"You did not recognize your own brother," says Vektor.
"No," says the Prince. "He had changed, and I did not know him."
You are Griffionday, the Hopeful Prince. When first you left home it was in search of your elder brother, who took his long body and regrets and drifted off into the snowscape one evening. Though you may have cried a little when he left you, nose scrunched against a cold windowpane, he was admittedly in a rather difficult phase. You hoped that he would be back soon, mature and prepared to take upon himself the burden of his kingship, and went about your business as the youngest of three sons.
The wheel of seasons turned, but he did not return.
You rode out through the winter woods, dripping coin wherever mead dripped down thirsty throats, and were finally directed to a certain cursed cathedral, where you opened the door to a certain mausoleum door and found a certain half-decayed skeleton and a certain sword. You had hoped, upon being told The Legend of the Bleeding Nine, that you would not find him amongst the dead--that he had been laid out in state--that the truth of the story had not been so sordid--that he would have fought to the end--but the carcass was huddled in the corner, skull down-turned, and that was the last of your cynical brother.
You voyaged some months, always returning again and again to that deadened place, wondering why you had let him go, but unable all the same to give him a proper burial--and when winter's cold bud bloomed into spring, you met a girl in the cursed cathedral's weedy garden and laid your regrets aside. Ah, she was beautiful! A sea of red hair and gray eyes that pierced, a pleasingly full figure, a rosebud mouth that dispensed with scathing wit and the warmest love, a marvel, an erotic, glowing goddess, a queen--
Then you lost her.
You aren't quite sure what happened or why, sensing no signs of her dissatisfaction, but you awoke one morning and she was gone--and this time, you didn't wait. You followed the rumors, even when they said something about a beautiful red-haired woman being transformed into an exceptionally pretty brown duck; you followed them back to your own castle, where it turned out that your own older brother was soliciting hands in marriage, having heard of The Cynical Prince's demise. Therefore you girded your loins with hope, adopted women's dress, made eyes at your remaining sibling and, at sixteen years of age, threw your lot in with twelve damsels to search for your lady love.
Even if she was a duck now.
You will find her again, whatever it takes.
You must find your Duck. You will be utterly heartbroken if she dies.
Each night and each day, you may inspect one of the players.
When you confident that you have found your Duck, you may ask her to come away with you--but be warned that anyone but Duck will probably be rather displeased to discover your masquerade.
Day is scheduled to end at 12:00 noon (-8 GMT) on Wednesday. Four votes required for initial extension to Friday.
[[I need to write 3 more PMs. None of these are directly relevant to the game, soooo feel free to play. They will be sent out tomorrow morning]]
Post by: Lenglon on August 26, 2013, 05:35:16 am
Lenglon takes a couple deep breaths, firming her resolve and composing her next words carefully.
"Lady Solifuge, your behavior yesterday was rather suspicious, so I decided to keep watch over what you did last night. Why did you visit GriffonDay the night she, i mean, he, died?"
Solifuge: Why did you visit GriffonDay last night?
Post by: Lenglon on August 26, 2013, 05:37:39 am
stupid no-edit rule.
the first line in the above post is supposed to be colored. I typed mediumrochid instead of mediumorchid in the color tag.
Post by: griffinpup on August 26, 2013, 07:32:11 am
Post by: webadict on August 26, 2013, 09:01:48 am
Post by: webadict on August 26, 2013, 09:04:02 am
Post by: zombie urist on August 26, 2013, 12:03:40 pm
Why wasn't the vote tied?
Why did Solfuge last-minute vote Griffinpup?
Post by: webadict on August 26, 2013, 12:12:48 pm
Swans and ducks... will we see owls? eagles? geese?Solifuge attempted to save my life by tying the vote, since he didn't believe I was scum. However, something caused that to change and not tie the vote.
Why wasn't the vote tied?
Why did Solfuge last-minute vote Griffinpup?
Post by: Vector on August 26, 2013, 12:26:15 pm
Swans and ducks... will we see owls? eagles? geese?
GOOD QUESTION
I guess you'll just have to lynch someone and find out!
Post by: webadict on August 26, 2013, 12:55:39 pm
Post by: notquitethere on August 26, 2013, 02:03:41 pm
- There's some kind of voting shenanigans. Anyone going to own up to that? Does your vote even count, Solifuge?
- Someone has or is a duck that was once a girl.
- More people may be in disguise.
Princess Wuba
Why isn't IronyOwl in this game...It's more ironic this way.
Normally I'd ask a replacement to comment on their predecessor, but Okami did bugger all of note. Do you disagree?
Princess Zombie Urist
Please justify your Day 1 vote on the Lady Wuba.
Post by: webadict on August 26, 2013, 03:42:05 pm
Princess WubaNope. I didn't even realize Okami was a player until I was looking at LurkerTracker.Why isn't IronyOwl in this game...It's more ironic this way.
Normally I'd ask a replacement to comment on their predecessor, but Okami did bugger all of note. Do you disagree?
Post by: Vector on August 26, 2013, 03:44:53 pm
Webadict
Leafsnail
Tiruin
Lenglon
Griffinpup
zombieurist - notquitethere
notquitethere
Solifoog - Lenglon
Jim Groovestar - Wubadub
Ottofar
Toaster
Not voting: Leafsnail, Tiruin, Jim Groovester, zombieurist, Solifuge, Toaster
To be replaced: griffinpup, Ottofar
Day is scheduled to end at 12:00 noon (-8 GMT) on Wednesday. Four votes required for initial extension to Friday.
Hey look guyz I can do vote counts and make cool gamze and yeah
Post by: Toaster on August 26, 2013, 03:48:39 pm
NQT, Solifuge, Leafsnail, Jim, Zombie U: Do any of you have anything vote related you'd like to claim? Goes double for you, Solifuge. And I'm looking forward to your answer to Lenglon.
(No, I have nothing vote related)
Leafsnail: Who do you suspect and why?
PPE: Awfully early in the day to be drinking, isn't it, Vector?
Post by: Vector on August 26, 2013, 03:51:40 pm
PPE: Awfully early in the day to be drinking, isn't it, Vector?
Just being my own cheering team, sometimes you need that you know lololol
But hey, it looks like the game is heating up a little?
Post by: zombie urist on August 26, 2013, 03:52:39 pm
NQT: Webadict was scummier than griffinpup. I didn't really see any of the points he was making and I disagreed with his reasoning on Griffionday.
Solifuge: Why tie the vote when you said you wanted to go to day 2?
Post by: webadict on August 26, 2013, 06:46:11 pm
Oh god, this can't be good...PPE: Awfully early in the day to be drinking, isn't it, Vector?
Just being my own cheering team, sometimes you need that you know lololol
But hey, it looks like the game is heating up a little?
Toaster: Nothing vote related.What about it did you disagree with? What points didn't you see?
NQT: Webadict was scummier than griffinpup. I didn't really see any of the points he was making and I disagreed with his reasoning on Griffionday.
Solifuge: Why tie the vote when you said you wanted to go to day 2?
Post by: Leafsnail on August 26, 2013, 07:57:39 pm
NQT, Solifuge, Leafsnail, Jim, Zombie U: Do any of you have anything vote related you'd like to claim? Goes double for you, Solifuge. And I'm looking forward to your answer to Lenglon.No. Why do you care?
Leafsnail: Who do you suspect and why?Solifuge is clearly a mafia member. There were multiple obvious problems with what webadict was doing yesterday, but he dismissed them all with no reasoning at all and attempted to tie the vote. Even if you accept his lack of logic there, he doesn't provide even an assertion to the effect seemed town (which is something he would have to think if he was prepared to waste the day one lynch in order to save him).
In other words his hope was to waste the day one lynch, hope webadict got lynched on the next day anyway and then get towncred for defending a townie.
Post by: Vector on August 26, 2013, 09:21:07 pm
Oh god, this can't be good...
MEEP MEEP MEEP
Chillosity level stabilized. Reactor meltdown probability: 0.000000000000000017%. *bzzt*
Post by: Jim Groovester on August 26, 2013, 09:44:54 pm
Solifuge: Why did you visit GriffonDay last night?
Oooooh, goody. Day 2 is interesting already.
I'm predictably interested in a response to this question.
Jim Groovester.
Did you replace in to get back at me?
Why let a little thing like death get in the way of something like that when you can abuse the replacement system to get extra lives am I right.
NQT, Solifuge, Leafsnail, Jim, Zombie U: Do any of you have anything vote related you'd like to claim? Goes double for you, Solifuge. And I'm looking forward to your answer to Lenglon.
Wasn't me.
Toaster: Nothing vote related.What about it did you disagree with? What points didn't you see?
NQT: Webadict was scummier than griffinpup. I didn't really see any of the points he was making and I disagreed with his reasoning on Griffionday.
Solifuge: Why tie the vote when you said you wanted to go to day 2?
I'm also interested in a slightly more elaborate detailing of your reasoning.
I was the target of an action last night, but due to the specifics of my role, I don't know what type.
Also, school has started up for me, so I expect to be extremely busy very soon. I doubt I'll have the time or energy to interact with this thread except superficially.
Post by: webadict on August 26, 2013, 10:03:48 pm
Oh, you know me. Always finding loopholes in the system. You know, instead of helping further the game. I guess you could kill me again, but I mean... Yeah, I'll probably just replace back in. Just like every game?Jim Groovester.
Did you replace in to get back at me?
Why let a little thing like death get in the way of something like that when you can abuse the replacement system to get extra lives am I right.
But, seriously, are you planning on doing anything today? Because your previous day was pretty awful.
Post by: Jim Groovester on August 26, 2013, 10:09:39 pm
Post by: webadict on August 26, 2013, 10:27:34 pm
If you didn't approve of my Day 1 then I shall no doubt disappoint you on Day 2.That's disappointing and frustrating to people that want to play.
Post by: Tiruin on August 26, 2013, 10:33:41 pm
Not busy now though.
@Jim: Is your main problem with the notion that webadict is back, or is there anything you have against him as a player?If you didn't approve of my Day 1 then I shall no doubt disappoint you on Day 2.That's disappointing and frustrating to people that want to play.
...Like, holding a grudge? Why do you think that over other ideas like scummy-suspicions? Forwarding the former question here, why was the first think you ask Okami/web talking about 'abusing the system'? I doubt Vector would do that. Thoroughly.
@web: More direct please? I can't understand snark here.Oh, you know me. Always finding loopholes in the system. You know, instead of helping further the game. I guess you could kill me again, but I mean... Yeah, I'll probably just replace back in. Just like every game?Jim Groovester.
Did you replace in to get back at me?
Why let a little thing like death get in the way of something like that when you can abuse the replacement system to get extra lives am I right.
But, seriously, are you planning on doing anything today? Because your previous day was pretty awful.
Post by: zombie urist on August 26, 2013, 10:49:59 pm
While a lylo day is more important than a d1, i don't think in general later days get more important.
A big point of Web's case was that Jim wasn't trying, which I disagree with.
I disagreed that Griffionday was worth lynching even if he was town.
When LS gets confident, my suspicions of him increase.... Hm...
Post by: Jim Groovester on August 26, 2013, 11:19:03 pm
@Jim: Is your main problem with the notion that webadict is back, or is there anything you have against him as a player?
...Like, holding a grudge? Why do you think that over other ideas like scummy-suspicions? Forwarding the former question here, why was the first think you ask Okami/web talking about 'abusing the system'? I doubt Vector would do that. Thoroughly.
So what's your question? This is confusing.
I don't understand why you're asking whether I have a personal issue with wubadubadoo (http://www.partyworld.ie/store_images/customcontent/0/fred_flintstone_jpg.jpg) or what you hope to accomplish or find out from it.
That's disappointing and frustrating to people that want to play.
Yeah, well.
School > Mafia
Post by: webadict on August 26, 2013, 11:33:00 pm
Off the top of my head...If you thought he was trying, then I'm not sure what qualifies as trying. I gave points as to how he wasn't trying. Do you believe that his case on RangerCado was acceptable? Can you point out some points where you believe Jim was trying?
While a lylo day is more important than a d1, i don't think in general later days get more important.
A big point of Web's case was that Jim wasn't trying, which I disagree with.
I disagreed that Griffionday was worth lynching even if he was town.
When LS gets confident, my suspicions of him increase.... Hm...
Also, thank you for suspecting someone for giving a case. It helps me identify exactly what you find suspicious, and definitely doesn't look like an excuse to not make a case.
He says I was abusing the replacement system. The fact is, I wouldn't be here if people would simply play the game they joined. Being a mod, I know exactly what Vector's feeling. It's not fun. I don't mind if you are busy. I don't mind if you are having a crisis. I don't mind if you have to deal with hostage negotiation for your kidnapped wife and children. But, these people that join the game and then leave because they aren't really getting into it... They ruin the game for everyone else. I would've rather you never joined than joined and then left part way through Day 1.@web: More direct please? I can't understand snark here.Oh, you know me. Always finding loopholes in the system. You know, instead of helping further the game. I guess you could kill me again, but I mean... Yeah, I'll probably just replace back in. Just like every game?Jim Groovester.
Did you replace in to get back at me?
Why let a little thing like death get in the way of something like that when you can abuse the replacement system to get extra lives am I right.
But, seriously, are you planning on doing anything today? Because your previous day was pretty awful.
But, that's a rant I don't want to have right now. Basically, he's snarky, and I'm countersnarky. Doesn't really matter.
Then do school, but don't pretend like you're trying.That's disappointing and frustrating to people that want to play.
Yeah, well.
School > Mafia
Post by: webadict on August 27, 2013, 04:46:27 pm
Post by: notquitethere on August 27, 2013, 06:15:01 pm
Post by: Leafsnail on August 27, 2013, 06:16:34 pm
When LS gets confident, my suspicions of him increase.... Hm...Okay.
Post by: Lenglon on August 27, 2013, 06:37:26 pm
Jim: do you have the ability to mute players? Why did you prediect Solifuge would disappear today?I tend to find that those who are overly shy or furtive tend to have an agenda behind their "lurking", or are just not invested in the goings-on. Either way, they should be investigated the same as anyone else. Perhaps harder than others.I'll keep this in mind when you disappear on Day 2.
Post by: webadict on August 27, 2013, 07:30:05 pm
"Um, Lady... Jim? who would name their daughter jim? I just remembered something you said yesterday that might be relevant to our current situation. Yesterday you commented on Lady Solifuge's attitude towards people hiding from the discussion by predicting she would disappear today. She... then proceeeded to disappear today. Did... did you make her disappear today? why isn't she speaking up to defend herself?"I highly doubt we have a removal power.Jim: do you have the ability to mute players? Why did you prediect Solifuge would disappear today?I tend to find that those who are overly shy or furtive tend to have an agenda behind their "lurking", or are just not invested in the goings-on. Either way, they should be investigated the same as anyone else. Perhaps harder than others.I'll keep this in mind when you disappear on Day 2.
Post by: Jim Groovester on August 27, 2013, 08:03:22 pm
Jim: do you have the ability to mute players? Why did you prediect Solifuge would disappear today?I tend to find that those who are overly shy or furtive tend to have an agenda behind their "lurking", or are just not invested in the goings-on. Either way, they should be investigated the same as anyone else. Perhaps harder than others.I'll keep this in mind when you disappear on Day 2.
Nope. That's just a very good prediction. Solifuge has a pattern of signing up for games and then disappearing completely in the middle of them.
Solifuge hasn't posted in spite of a serious accusation being made against him. We should just lynch him really. Not sure if there's much point in bickering about other shit at this point.
I'm kind of in favor of this even if he does show up.
Because he's just going to disappear again.
Remember how he totally said he needed Day 2 to roll around (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4517016#msg4517016) before he could do some really serious scumhunting?
Yeah, funny that.
Post by: Toaster on August 27, 2013, 08:39:25 pm
Post by: Vector on August 28, 2013, 12:41:29 am
Webadict
Leafsnail
Tiruin
Lenglon
Griffinpup
zombieurist
notquitethere
Solifoog - Lenglon, Toaster, NotQuiteThere, Leafsnail
Jim Groovestar - Wubadub
Ottofar
Toaster
Not voting: Tiruin, Jim Groovester, zombieurist, Solifuge
To be replaced: griffinpup, Ottofar
Day is scheduled to end at 12:00 noon (-8 GMT) on Wednesday, in 13 hours. Four votes required for initial extension to Friday.
For everyone's reference, Solifuge just finished a 72-hour Ludem Dare thing and is apparently sleeping it off. I expect he'll be here tomorrow.
Post by: Lenglon on August 28, 2013, 01:14:29 am
Not voting: Leafsnail, Tiruin, Jim Groovester, zombieurist, Solifuge
Solifuge
Post by: Lenglon on August 28, 2013, 01:16:16 am
For everyone's reference, Solifuge just finished a 72-hour Ludem Dare thing and is apparently sleeping it off. I expect he'll be here tomorrow.Extend: even if soli responds, there's a good chance I won't be here again before day end. tomorrow is going to be a hectic day for me.
Post by: Vector on August 28, 2013, 01:19:43 am
Not voting: Leafsnail, Tiruin, Jim Groovester, zombieurist, SolifugeSolifuge
Thanks, updated the VC.
Post by: Jim Groovester on August 28, 2013, 01:45:12 am
Get in here, etc.
Post by: Vector on August 28, 2013, 01:48:26 am
Quote
The game has soft hammers; if at any point a player has 51% of all available votes, that player will be lynched and the day will end.
Feh. I'll write up the lynch tomorrow morning. For now, enjoy the suspense.
Post by: Vector on August 29, 2013, 02:15:07 am
Webadict
Leafsnail
Tiruin
Lenglon
Griffinpup
zombieurist
notquitethere
Solifoog - Lenglon, Toaster, NotQuiteThere, Leafsnail, Jim Groovester
Jim Groovestar - Wubadub
Ottofar
Toaster
Not voting: Tiruin, Jim Groovester, zombieurist, Solifuge
Solifuge has been lynched.
Ottofar has been killed by the moderator but pay attention for once you silly people.
TheWetSheep will replace griffinpup.
See next post for flips and writeups.
Post by: Vector on August 29, 2013, 03:32:08 am
"I remember I hoped that it was a cunning ruse--someone pretending to be my younger brother, pretending to be a prospective bride, a second layer of illusion--but that was absurd. They would still be dead. Horatio was still abed, asleep at last (dead to the world), and I did not want to wake him. He was cross with me later. But I trudged through the halls, snarling like an animal, blade bare in hand, as though I were dreaming.
"I could not understand. It all seemed. . . distorted.
"We found the Black Swan first, by accident--we had not even been looking for her. Her hands were covered in blood and bits of organ. She was lying face-down over the White Swan's grave, with no marks of injury on her person though her lips were stretched open in a horrifying rictus, eyes dark and wide open. Her mouth was filled with grave-dirt and on the withering white flesh of her body was written incomprehensible symbols in fresh black ink. On her forehead the letters 'Q. E. S.' appeared.
"We left her there and surged back to the castle. We had not thought, you see--that the killer might not have been a fugitive. No. We found her in her chamber. Both door and window were closed. The room was hazy with sweet woodsmoke. She sat in the corner opposite the door, dressed in shirt and trousers as always, unmoving.
"'Open the window,' said one of the girls, tugging my sleeve. 'Please. You must open the window and close the door. She has lost her way, but open the window and close the door for her, please, before it's too late.'
"I did not heed her. I was too angry. The smoke cleared. Between the woman's outstretched legs was a bronze bowl filled with smoking wood chips and the remnants of some sort of herb--and amidst them, a bloody stiletto. Her shirt was unlaced and her abdomen slashed open. Her head lolled back. Her fingernails had left black bruises on her face, her stomach, her sides. The pressure had been too much. I suppose she heard us, the shouts, the screams, the recriminations and threats, and chose her own slow death.
"But she yet breathed.
"She opened her bloodshot, red-rimmed eyes, and pointed at me. She seemed to have been waiting and saving her strength.
"'I. . . do not worship Death, Friend,' she said slowly. Blood poured down her chin and spattered the white shirt. 'But you should consider it. I feel her coming now.'
"'What do you mean by this?' I asked her. 'Did you kill him? Are you the one responsible?'
"'My death is but the beginning,' she said.
"'What?' said I.
"'We all sacrifice,' she said, and perished."
You are Ottofar, the Black Swan.
Preternaturally strong, intelligent, solemn, delicate, clear-sighted. . . you are a rare beauty. You came here to offer yourself to the Prince. It isn't that you're desperate. It's just that you want to be loved. Your best qualities aren't easy to see. That's what you keep telling yourself, anyway--reminding yourself that your good points exist. Your hope was to woo the Prince with your lively mind and clever conversation.
Unfortunately, one of the girls who showed up was your rival, The White Swan. Not so long ago you fell in love with the prince of a neighboring kingdom, but she butted in as she always does--well, no, she didn't quite do anything that aggressive, just stood there with a particular suggestion to her posture. Like she always does. You fought like cranes and turtles for a good long while, when she finally pretended to commit suicide--just to keep the Prince away from you--and he killed himself. You were sick for weeks. Then she returned, in the pink. You remained in mourning.
You have never forgiven her for that. Nor will you forgive here for coming here, as well, to simper and steal away what should have been yours. So you gather some other unhappy girls together and decide that you'll win the Prince with one of your other talents: the blazing intellect of a tactician and spymaster. You will slowly kill the other girls here to narrow down the odds, thus proving to him that he would do well to choose you. Very well.
It wouldn't be much of a rivalry, would it, if you just laid down and died? Or pretended to? When she is gone, you know you shall mourn her all the same--as is proper when one has lost a sister.
You are a member of The Black Swan's Cohort. You have a private chat here (http://HAHAHAHAHA). You win when the girls outside the cohort are dead.
Due to your similarity to The White Swan and legitimate love for the Prince (the speciesists apparently can't tell you apart, despite one being black and one being white!), you will appear town upon inspection.
You are Solifuge, AKA Lovelace.
You have followed your Goddess here, she the all-seeing wonder. You aren't sure what would happen if she were hurt. Something terrible. Therefore, for her own good, to protect her in her every sleeping moment, you followed her to this place where the walls are a foot thick and the guards well-armed.
So are you, not only with your Code but also with a stiletto in your boot. One evening you are practicing with it while the Goddess bestows her smiling countenance upon you. She has a face like the moon and eyes like the stars. You think, anyway. It isn't your job to traffic in beauty and fine words, or judgments; it's your obligation to protect the Goddess with your mortal body, to forget all but her, all the charlatans and all the world's troubles, and all the better if you are fond of her in every way.
You have worked up quite a sweat when the Prince walks in. The Goddess has fallen asleep, meanwhile, and you run past to protect her--
"I'm... sorry, my liege," you say. You have realized too late that you cannot fight with the Prince, and if you are not going to fight with him, then you are standing too close. You also notice, somewhat embarrassed, that you are taller than he is.
"That's all right, Sister," he says. "I understand that you came here to guard her, even from me. You cannot be friends with everyone."
"But I should like very much to be friends with you," you say. The words stumble out of your mouth. Blasphemy! You promised yourself to protect one woman, and only one; what if there was a collision of priorities? How would you adjudicate the conflict? And what if you decided to protect more people? You're pretty certain that would be beyond the scope of your Code and you might have to rewrite it, which would be a pain, like that part of baking you always hated, where you have to sift through flour to pick all the bugs out. . .
He has been standing there, looking up at you, smiling a little this whole time. You are sure you are very red. You do not have to query him in the least. It comes from your class, a face that betrays you--
"Let us be friends, then," he says.
You are town. You win when all threats to the Prince are gone.
You may kill one person every other night.
Night will last until Friday at noon (GMT -8). Send in your night actions ASAP so I can start writing PMs.
Post by: Vector on August 31, 2013, 11:59:07 pm
Thank you for your patience. . . please hold while you are being connected.
Post by: Vector on September 01, 2013, 06:15:00 pm
Old Vektor is silent. He does not know what to say.
"I have heard of these things before," he says at last. "I heard of madness passing through men left in closed conditions, so that they killed each other one at a time--by degrees."
"The Legend of the Bleeding Nine," says the Prince, sounding defeated.
"That's right," says Vektor.
"I have heard that legend myself--it was where my eldest brother passed. But no one incited these people to fall upon each other like wolves. No bets were placed. No supernatural force started it.
"All I did," says the Prince, "was invite them to my castle, and ask them to love me."
You are NotQuiteThere the Gardener-Sage.
The massacre in the cathedral was called "The Legend of the Bleeding Nine." You survived and traveled on to greener gardens, where the sunlight did your bones well, where the trees did not seem quite so full of bleeding children. The way took you to a castle which had been home to three princes--one of whom perished in the Legend. But you are ready to forget. You are ready to tend a new garden and grow a new crop of good men. These flowers shall take the places of your children, and you will love them as such.
Unfortunately, you have grown old--so old that no one can tell, anymore, if you are a man or a woman. So when you spend evenings in the castle, resting before the fire and telling morality tales, the Prince takes an eye to you for "your flourishing goodness" and brings you in as one of his Thirteen.
This is a terrible idea, as you keep trying to tell them, but you lost your wooden teeth a while ago and you don't think they'd listen to you anyway.
You are a Survivor. You win by being alive when the game ends.
At the moment you can either
ROSES: Protect another party
or
LILIES: Redirect another party
every night.
Day will end on Tuesday at 12:00 Noon (-8GMT). Three votes required to extend to Thursday at 12:00 Noon (-8 GMT).
Post by: notquitethere on September 01, 2013, 06:50:41 pm
Post by: webadict on September 01, 2013, 07:13:07 pm
Post by: Jim Groovester on September 01, 2013, 07:40:40 pm
Post by: webadict on September 01, 2013, 07:57:56 pm
Post by: TheWetSheep on September 01, 2013, 08:00:57 pm
OK, first off, everyone:
"It was interesting," said the Prince. "Seven of them refused, in whole or in part. Oh, what was it they were picky about... uncovering their hair, or taking off their favorite shoes, or wearing women's garb, or showing a little decolletage--"
I asked Vector if I was one of the seven. I suggest everyone else does the same. I feel like we need more information about this game.
Also, this "Bleeding Nine" legend is showing up everywhere. Might it have some importance? Does anybody have important references to it in their flavour?
Jim, Webadict: Please restate your cases on each other from D1, clearly and concisely.
Jim: How old is your character? Did you know you were hammering?
Lenglon:
"Lady Solifuge, your behavior yesterday was rather suspicious, so I decided to keep watch over what you did last night. Why did you visit GriffonDay the night she, i mean, he, died?"Solifuge was very suspicious of Griffionday at D1 end. It made a lot of sense for him to be a vig. Do you think that merited hammering him without him getting a chance to defend himself?
Solifuge: Why did you visit GriffonDay last night?
Webadict: I assume you still suspect Jim. Why don't you try to convince people? Why aren't you voting him?
PPE:
I'm assuming that you had something to do with that, Jim?
Yes.
I hate you.?
Post by: webadict on September 01, 2013, 08:08:29 pm
Webadict: I assume you still suspect Jim. Why don't you try to convince people? Why aren't you voting him?Because he isn't scum.
Post by: zombie urist on September 01, 2013, 08:12:38 pm
Funny only NK's have been third party.
Post by: webadict on September 01, 2013, 08:18:51 pm
Wait NQT's thing was the only "bleeding nine" reference I've seen.Legend of the Bleeding Nine. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=49517.0)
Funny only NK's have been third party.
Post by: TheWetSheep on September 01, 2013, 08:58:02 pm
OK, you got it too?Webadict: I assume you still suspect Jim. Why don't you try to convince people? Why aren't you voting him?Because he isn't scum.
Oh, I see.Wait NQT's thing was the only "bleeding nine" reference I've seen.Legend of the Bleeding Nine. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=49517.0)
Funny only NK's have been third party.
Post by: Toaster on September 01, 2013, 09:00:06 pm
I'm assuming that you had something to do with that, Jim?
Yes.
I'm assuming I also know what this is about?
WetSheep: I assume I am without asking. I said it in flavor, but it's true- my flavor describes my red dress.
Zombie U:
Funny only NK's have been third party.
Are you drawing a conclusion from this?
Post by: Toaster on September 01, 2013, 09:01:21 pm
Lenglon: What drove your choice of target N1?
Post by: Jim Groovester on September 01, 2013, 09:08:16 pm
Jim: Did you know you were hammering?
No. I had completely forgotten that soft hammers were a thing in this game.
And 5/11 < 51%, so there were vote shenanigans again during Day 2.
The hammering was an accident, but it was pretty dumb of me to pile on the votes even with a soft hammer rule.
Jim: How old is your character?
What does this have to do with anything?
I asked Vector if I was one of the seven. I suggest everyone else does the same. I feel like we need more information about this game.
What does this have to do with anything?
Jim, Webadict: Please restate your cases on each other from D1, clearly and concisely.
I direct you here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4522748#msg4522748).
I hate you.
I know.
OK, you got it too?
I'm assuming I also know what this is about?
It would be interesting to see if somebody doesn't know what we're talking about.
Post by: Vector on September 01, 2013, 09:22:41 pm
This game is a mild bastard mod. That is to say, I have already lied to you once or twice. However, I give to you my promises. Not only will the rules be as static as possible, but any lies I tell will be truths from the perspective of our storytelling prince. Indeed, they will be solely in the flavor; none of them will be whoppers, only minor details. I also promise you that there will be hidden mechanics. Discovering them will be in your best interest, but the game can be finished successfully for all concerned without them.
I can't tell you which pieces of flavor are and aren't relevant, because that would be giving the game away. But I can tell you that I'm into exploration, not massive trays of red herring.
So, to the specific question I've been asked: is it relevant or not who wouldn't change their clothes?
The answer is that it will be relevant if you manage to leverage it, and wholly irrelevant if you don't. It's not a point worth getting caught up in. However, paying attention to flavor and asking questions is very very very much in your best interests, especially at this stage of the game.
One more time: "Love and synthesis."
Post by: webadict on September 01, 2013, 09:25:48 pm
Post by: Vector on September 01, 2013, 09:29:59 pm
I don't have to drink anything, do I?
Lol, wat? N-not unless you want to?
Post by: webadict on September 01, 2013, 09:38:17 pm
You can't tell me how to live my life, Vector.I don't have to drink anything, do I?
Lol, wat? N-not unless you want to?
Post by: Lenglon on September 01, 2013, 09:58:33 pm
Lenglon twirls in place once
"I'm not wearing anything different from the rest of us. And um, sorry Lady Sheep, but I don't know anything about the legend of the Bleeding Nine."
"As for if I thought we should remove Lady Solifuge right away or give her a chance to speak first? I thought I made myself clear yesterday, when I asked for us to delay our decision to give her a chance to speak and us to listen. I considered hearing her out important. If she had simply come out of hiding and told us what had happened, why she had acted the way she did, then we would have had a chance to try to avoid this tragedy."
"Now then, Lady Toaster, you wanted to know why I was suspicious of Lady Solifuge? Well, I found her actions during the day to be quite suspicious. She had been evading my questions, misrepresenting my words, speaking in a way that supressed a vibrant discussion, rather than encouraged it, and she expressed a blatant double-standard regarding GriffDay and tunneling. and then she proceeded to tie the vote! I had thought that I had found a treacherous viper amongst us, but I needed proof. So I decided to watch over her, and see if my suspicions were correct. and... well, you know the rest."
"Um, Lady Jim? Why... why did you... uh... that...was... was that... that... well, um.... uh...
I don't know what to say Jim. I... well. I think I know what you and Lady Web and Lady Sheep are... well, not exactly talking about but... well, yeah..."
"Oh, and um, looking back, it seems that the two people who were part of both votes, and therefore most likely to have their votes count for two rather than one, were Lady Leaf and Lady Jim. Do either of you have more influence than the rest of us?
OK, first off, everyone:No, and no."It was interesting," said the Prince. "Seven of them refused, in whole or in part. Oh, what was it they were picky about... uncovering their hair, or taking off their favorite shoes, or wearing women's garb, or showing a little decolletage--"
I asked Vector if I was one of the seven. I suggest everyone else does the same. I feel like we need more information about this game.
Also, this "Bleeding Nine" legend is showing up everywhere. Might it have some importance? Does anybody have important references to it in their flavour?
Lenglon:No"Lady Solifuge, your behavior yesterday was rather suspicious, so I decided to keep watch over what you did last night. Why did you visit GriffonDay the night she, i mean, he, died?"Solifuge was very suspicious of Griffionday at D1 end. It made a lot of sense for him to be a vig. Do you think that merited hammering him without him getting a chance to defend himself?
Solifuge: Why did you visit GriffonDay last night?
Lenglon: What drove your choice of target N1?same as why I was voting Soli at the end of day 1, evasion, misdirection, supression of discussion, and hipocricy. Toss in the way Soli tied the vote, and I was already half-convinced I was looking at scum.
Jim: I know what you're talking about
Leaf and Jim: which of you has a double-strength vote?
Post by: webadict on September 01, 2013, 10:12:14 pm
It would be interesting to see if somebody doesn't know what we're talking about.How many people did you hit with that?
Post by: TheWetSheep on September 01, 2013, 10:13:02 pm
1. There was (probably) no mafia-kill night 1. It's almost certain that Soli killed Griffionday, since he had a kill and Griff was his suspect.
2. The Black Swan Cohort's wincon is interesting:
You are a member of The Black Swan's Cohort. You have a private chat here (http://HAHAHAHAHA). You win when the girls outside the cohort are dead.There's no "if you outnumber town" or "if failure is no longer possible", like there normally is. This makes me think the Cohort might not have a kill at all, which makes sense with #1.
Post by: zombie urist on September 01, 2013, 11:09:09 pm
Post by: Lenglon on September 01, 2013, 11:15:37 pm
ZU: Why did you vote Leaf?
Post by: zombie urist on September 01, 2013, 11:30:54 pm
I don't really have too much of a case on LS, but I believe that LS gets really pushy about lynches as scum.
This game is wayyyy to flavor-heavy for my taste. I didn't get what you guys were talking about because the place it was I didn't read very closely. I also don't really understand why we're being so secretive about it.
Post by: Tiruin on September 01, 2013, 11:57:35 pm
MOD NOTE: I thought this was clear before, but as I said at the beginning of the game:I've been thinking along this tangent for more of Day 2, and thanks to Jim's vote-ishness, and day end, couldn't post my post :/This game is a mild bastard mod. That is to say, I have already lied to you once or twice. However, I give to you my promises. Not only will the rules be as static as possible, but any lies I tell will be truths from the perspective of our storytelling prince. Indeed, they will be solely in the flavor; none of them will be whoppers, only minor details. I also promise you that there will be hidden mechanics. Discovering them will be in your best interest, but the game can be finished successfully for all concerned without them.
I can't tell you which pieces of flavor are and aren't relevant, because that would be giving the game away. But I can tell you that I'm into exploration, not massive trays of red herring.
So, to the specific question I've been asked: is it relevant or not who wouldn't change their clothes?
The answer is that it will be relevant if you manage to leverage it, and wholly irrelevant if you don't. It's not a point worth getting caught up in. However, paying attention to flavor and asking questions is very very very much in your best interests, especially at this stage of the game.
One more time: "Love and synthesis."
But I've found something VERY important as to regaard with our notes here. And I'll be listing it down later on after this Parasitology class.
ONE THING:
> We've someone who is manipulating our votes.
> Watch for how they relate aaccording to mechanics.
What I'll be discussing later is on speculation as to how our votes and flavor coincide--yes, this matters.
Post by: Tiruin on September 02, 2013, 12:16:04 am
It would be interesting to see if somebody doesn't know what we're talking about.I don't. Interested yet?
Post by: Jim Groovester on September 02, 2013, 01:24:59 am
Hint: It involves your night PM flavor. And me.
It would be interesting to see if somebody doesn't know what we're talking about.How many people did you hit with that?
A lot.
Leaf and Jim: which of you has a double-strength vote?
Not me.
Post by: zombie urist on September 02, 2013, 02:59:53 am
Post by: Jim Groovester on September 02, 2013, 04:55:29 am
Or it could be a great big waste of time. There's a pretty good chance of that happening, actually.
Post by: Tiruin on September 02, 2013, 07:04:33 am
Are you sure you don't know what everybody is talking about?..Well, I was asleep and dreaming, so no.
Hint: It involves your night PM flavor. And me.
Because if somebody didn't get the *wink wink nudge nudge* it could be significant somehow. So blabbing about it might not be the greatest idea, especially if its significance is alignment related."...This isn't innuendo, is it?"
Or it could be a great big waste of time. There's a pretty good chance of that happening, actually.
But really, I'm falling on the 'this may be a great red herring' if it's that significant--I...didn't sense anything out of the ordinary but my dream. Oh, and before anyone claims the alignment blah blah, I doubt it given my alignment. No, not a third-party.
I've never been good at reading between the lines and it would be nice if someone could tell me what's the significance behind the thingy and why we're being secretive. ;D"I think it's about the Prince's mustache..."
...All I got was that Jim did something and Webadict hates his guts--I attributed it to the NK and then wondered why Jim would claim that..and then others also pitched in so I am now stumped.
Because unless this is some watcher extraveganza or Miss Jin has found something of great importance, then I've nothing on that front but my own thoughts.
ANYWAY: Will be posting my finds on the flavor, and what we're missing. Note that Ottofar didn't have a vote D2.
Post by: webadict on September 02, 2013, 07:45:43 am
Post by: Vector on September 02, 2013, 11:10:27 am
I very slightly fudged 51% since we were at 50 and there were two replacement requests with an about-to-happen-anyway modkill. I'm not sure if this was wrong of me, but it . . . made sense, I thought.
Post by: Solifuge on September 02, 2013, 11:43:34 am
P.S. Bah!))
Post by: Vector on September 02, 2013, 11:46:57 am
Webadict
Leafsnail - zombieurist
Tiruin
Lenglon
TheWetSheep
zombieurist
Jim Groovestar
Toaster
Not voting: Webadict, Tiruin, Lenglon, TheWetSheep, Jim Groovestar, Toaster
((I'd be lying if I said I wasn't bummed about it, but I've got no hard feelings.
P.S. Bah!))
Yeah. I'm not going to make some sort of big stand for myself here, but I'll say only that I'm learning a lot about modding and the next game is not going to be like this. All the lessons are being learned. All of them.
A couple of them, like to think harder when you're stealing someone else's OP and that this is not a game that likes fudge factors
Post by: Leafsnail on September 02, 2013, 12:57:28 pm
It would be interesting to see if somebody doesn't know what we're talking about.Are we talking about last night's homosexual tension?
Leaf and Jim: which of you has a double-strength vote?Me.
There's no "if you outnumber town" or "if failure is no longer possible", like there normally is. This makes me think the Cohort might not have a kill at all, which makes sense with #1.I disagree. If the mafia needs everyone dead that implies that they do have some kind of kill, because otherwise the game would be stuck at a draw if it was one mafia member vs one townie, and that would be stupid. It does seem like the mafia kill is missing though, maybe they only get it if they have one player left or something.
Nothing really but when Toaster asked LS said no.I answered Toaster's question honestly.
Post by: Jim Groovester on September 02, 2013, 05:16:43 pm
Are you sure you don't know what everybody is talking about?..Well, I was asleep and dreaming, so no.
Hint: It involves your night PM flavor. And me.
That's precisely what I'm talking about.
Everybody should have gotten a message from me in their dreams last night.
It would be interesting to see if somebody doesn't know what we're talking about.Are we talking about last night's homosexual tension?
That depends on whether last night's homosexual tension occurred in a dream, and was accompanied by a message from me.
In which case, yes. If not, then no.
Anyways, moving on, I think Leafsnail is scum. So if we look back to the Day 2 votes on Solifuge, we see that most everybody wanted him to show up and explain himself. Leafsnail is the odd man out in that he was certain Solifuge was scum.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
The certainty strikes me as scummy because even before we hear from Solifuge, Leafsnail is already condemning him. Considering Solifuge's choice of NK target, Solifuge being a vigilante isn't out of the question, yet Leafsnail is either unaware of or ignores this possibility.
Leafsnail's explanation of Solifuge's D1 actions is also kind of ridiculous, but this is more a secondary point.
I was going to point this out on D2 if Solifuge ever showed up and his explanation satisfied me, but then stop hammertime.
Nothing really but when Toaster asked LS said no.I answered Toaster's question honestly.
NQT, Solifuge, Leafsnail, Jim, Zombie U: Do any of you have anything vote related you'd like to claim?No. Why do you care?
Yeah, you answered honestly, if you're splitting hairs.
Post by: Leafsnail on September 02, 2013, 05:36:43 pm
I was going to point this out on D2 if Solifuge ever showed up and his explanation satisfied me, but then stop hammertime.What? Why not say it, like, when you saw it? Rather than waiting until you lynched one person before moving on to the next.
Same goes for "I thought it was a vigkill but I decided to pile a fifth vote on him anyway".
Yeah, you answered honestly, if you're splitting hairs.I gave a straight answer: no, I will not reveal my role if there's no benefit to be gained by doing so. I would've claimed if he'd given me a valid reason why he wanted to know who the double-voter was, but he didn't.
Post by: Lenglon on September 02, 2013, 05:59:25 pm
I gave a straight answer: no, I will not reveal my role if there's no benefit to be gained by doing so. I would've claimed if he'd given me a valid reason why he wanted to know who the double-voter was, but he didn't.Leafsnail: What was the valid reason I wanted to know who the double-voter was? What benefit was gained by doing so?
Post by: Leafsnail on September 02, 2013, 06:20:52 pm
Leafsnail: What was the valid reason I wanted to know who the double-voter was?You didn't provide one. Although really I think you're the one who should be answering this question!
What benefit was gained by doing so?None. However, answering truthfully would be less harmful than the other options, which would be:
1. Lying - a bad thing to do as town since it causes mislynches later
2. Refusing to answer - it would be taken as an admission of guilt, particularly since Jim issued a denial, and probably cause a mislynch due to evasiveness
3. Ignoring the queston - again, would likely cause a mislynch due to evasiveness
Post by: Leafsnail on September 02, 2013, 06:28:02 pm
What? Why not say it, like, when you saw it? Rather than waiting until you lynched one person before moving on to the next.Actually, scratch that. You didn't just not post about my case, you actively agreed with part of it.
So yeah, why are you now pretending to have opposed the Solifuge lynch?Solifuge hasn't posted in spite of a serious accusation being made against him. We should just lynch him really. Not sure if there's much point in bickering about other shit at this point.
I'm kind of in favor of this even if he does show up.
Because he's just going to disappear again.
Remember how he totally said he needed Day 2 to roll around (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4517016#msg4517016) before he could do some really serious scumhunting?
Yeah, funny that.
Post by: Lenglon on September 02, 2013, 06:29:14 pm
Leaf:Why didn't you pair a refusal to answer with a question to me about why I'm asking in the first place?
Post by: Leafsnail on September 02, 2013, 06:32:43 pm
2. Refusing to answer - it would be taken as an admission of guilt, particularly since Jim issued a denial, and probably cause a mislynch due to evasiveness
Post by: Tiruin on September 02, 2013, 07:05:37 pm
O_oAre you sure you don't know what everybody is talking about?..Well, I was asleep and dreaming, so no.
Hint: It involves your night PM flavor. And me.
That's precisely what I'm talking about.
Everybody should have gotten a message from me in their dreams last night.
Tiruin stares at you with a look between awe and confusion.
"Oh.
"Oh my goodness. I thought you-..and..and you looked much like. And- and you took the form of.."
She just shakes her head and flutters her fan, musing.
'It was different. Yes, it did intone a name. And it was Jin(m). But but but but..how?!'
"How do I know you're telling the truth? This could all be an elaborate lie, dedicated within the subconsc-consciousness..."
...I just had a realization there. Great. Ok, school popping up again to warn ahead--will be back in a few hours(and the fact that one post totally ruined part of my speculations) pertaining to the votecount HOWEVER I must cross-examine once more (I'm totally sorry here but I can pull through this.)
Just one query:
Ma'am Leafsnail:
What's your view on the lynch and what correlation does his current view have with said lynch?What? Why not say it, like, when you saw it? Rather than waiting until you lynched one person before moving on to the next.Actually, scratch that. You didn't just not post about my case, you actively agreed with part of it.So yeah, why are you now pretending to have opposed the Solifuge lynch?Solifuge hasn't posted in spite of a serious accusation being made against him. We should just lynch him really. Not sure if there's much point in bickering about other shit at this point.
I'm kind of in favor of this even if he does show up.
Because he's just going to disappear again.
Remember how he totally said he needed Day 2 to roll around (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4517016#msg4517016) before he could do some really serious scumhunting?
Yeah, funny that.
Post by: Lenglon on September 02, 2013, 07:19:35 pm
...
...
"Ok."
Unvote
Post by: zombie urist on September 02, 2013, 07:32:15 pm
@LS. So basically the only reason you didn't claim yesterday was because Toaster didn't explicitly ask? B/c that's what it looks like.
I don't hate Jim's guts. There's just no point in lynching Jim now.Who should we lynch then?
@Tiruin: Is your parasite class over now? What's the important stuff?
Post by: Lenglon on September 02, 2013, 07:44:10 pm
Leafsnail: why didn't you ask me any questions when I asked you if you had a double-vote?
Post by: Tiruin on September 02, 2013, 07:46:15 pm
@Tiruin: Is your parasite class over now? What's the important stuff?It was over yesterday however I'm caught up in a gale of exams and stuff due to the delays caused by the many 'holidays' due to storms. The important stuff I'm outlining is what is based on flavor according to the Prince's exposition as opposed to what we find out later--however this seems trivial at the moment and I can't formulate what to directly as the Mod. Also, I'm checking back in-thread about the remanining people left and all that stuff about catching up.
...I don't hate Jim's guts. There's just no point in lynching Jim now.Who should we lynch then?
"I hope this is rhetoric, because I'm pretty confused on why you're asking that to Miss Web.
"Why are you asking that?"
Post by: Vector on September 02, 2013, 09:43:23 pm
Webadict
Leafsnail - zombieurist, JimGroovester, Lenglon
Tiruin
Lenglon
TheWetSheep
zombieurist - Leafsnail
Jim Groovestar
Toaster
Not voting: Webadict, Tiruin, TheWetSheep, Toaster
The day is scheduled to end in 20 hours, at 12:00 noon Tuesday (-8GMT). For a preliminary extension to Thursday, 12:00 noon (-8GMT), three votes are necessary.
Post by: Tiruin on September 02, 2013, 10:11:12 pm
Post by: Jim Groovester on September 03, 2013, 12:53:21 am
I didn't condemn Solifuge for being tracked to a kill. I condemned him because he attempted to tie up the vote at the end of the day for an absolutely terrible reason. I don't see why I'm meant to be scummy for being to one to commit to a case rather than just sitting back and putting "pressure" on Solifuge.
So you're saying that you would have voted Solifuge on Day 2 regardless of him being tracked.
Him being tracked had nothing to do with your case and you weren't the slightest bit interested in that at all.
Is this all correct?
What? Why not say it, like, when you saw it? Rather than waiting until you lynched one person before moving on to the next.
Because I suspected Solifuge and didn't want to provide him material for his own defense by challenging your accusations. Not until he responded on his own.
So yeah, why are you now pretending to have opposed the Solifuge lynch?
But I didn't oppose the lynch.
After getting tracked to a kill, and after tying the vote on Day 1, Solifuge didn't bother showing up to answer any questions to him.
That's pretty scummy.
And after a day or two of not hearing from him, I was about ready to propose a Lynch All Lurkers vote on him. That's why I put my vote on him, when I thought I already had.
Same goes for "I thought it was a vigkill but I decided to pile a fifth vote on him anyway".
I was thinking more SK pretending to be a vigilante instead of just straight vig. Hence my concern about you calling him mafia.
How come you didn't think it was a vigkill, or at least, could have been one?
And how was Solifuge killing Griffionday supposed to fit into your theory of how he was scum?
Post by: Tiruin on September 03, 2013, 02:24:15 am
Either way, Vector is an awesome writer.
Spoiler: The Cast (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: The Story in Detail; Shifting Viewpoint (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Fact 1 (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Fact 2 (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Fact 3 (click to show/hide)
And strangely, by my findings, people have been lax throughout Day 1.
This is strange.
Speculation [TL;DR: RELATED]: We've a killer (that would probably affect) all of us as the Prince is still alive after all these events. Note that the narration is after he's describing the people and the events that happened (or..the Prince just is sad and goes off as we're still alive one night to drink and be merry..I'd understand that, but the former seems more plausible at this time. The latter seems plausible as the story is still being told [I speculate there'll be a happy ending through all this because it jives with 'work for your happy ending' given the Mafia context...])
This further reinforces the guess of said killer
Quote
"'I. . . do not worship Death, Friend,' she said slowly. Blood poured down her chin and spattered the white shirt. 'But you should consider it. I feel her coming now.'From here, and given the presence of a cohort--there are at least 3 mafiosos, given this case...And perhaps this vague warning concerning 'Death'.--The Black Swan
...Perhaps the foe of this Goddess who Lovelace has allied with.
Next point: Our roles correlate to..either a psychological shyness, or that we do follow those roles of fantasy-types or deities in flesh.
Quote
"Seven of them refused, in whole or in part. Oh, what was it they were picky about... uncovering their hair, or taking off their favorite shoes, or wearing women's garb, or showing a little decolletage--"Seven out of thirteen. I'm pushing this to flavor/creativity unless some certain people (I'd ask Jim as he's already been hinting it out) could explain what they did.--"The Tale of Thirteen" (link)
Final point: We've at least 3 mafia members. I'm on the notion that there are 3, instead of 'at least'.
This 'Legend of the Bleeding Nine.' as quoted from 'The Gardener Sage' points to the exacts. 'If town is outnumbered, then Mafia wins' is what I'm going upon. 13-9 = 4. Doubly so with the subtle references from earlier.
One thing we know for sure. There were no voting shenanigans. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4565207#msg4565207)
...And I'll get in my main post later.
Post by: Vector on September 03, 2013, 02:41:48 am
Post by: Lenglon on September 03, 2013, 07:09:33 am
Post by: webadict on September 03, 2013, 07:54:40 am
Post by: Toaster on September 03, 2013, 08:01:31 am
Busy day (and yesterday sucked for B12 time) so I'll post when I am able.
Post by: Vector on September 03, 2013, 12:05:35 pm
just to be sure.
good idea
The deadline has been extended to 12:00 noon on Thursday, -8GMT.
Post by: Jim Groovester on September 03, 2013, 02:48:28 pm
Seven out of thirteen. I'm pushing this to flavor/creativity unless some certain people (I'd ask Jim as he's already been hinting it out) could explain what they did.
I was one of the six who was perfectly fine with wearing a white dress.
Post by: Leafsnail on September 03, 2013, 02:59:25 pm
"Wait, no, I backed off a moment too soon. Lady Leafsnail, why didn't you ask me anything at all when you answered my question? If your decision to admit to your degree of influence depended on there being a valid reason, and I didn't give one, then why didn't you show any interest in finding one until you were questioned on why you didn't answer the first time you were asked?"Do you have short term memory loss? I already explained, and then requoted the relevant passage for you. Here, let me do it a third time.
Leafsnail: why didn't you ask me any questions when I asked you if you had a double-vote?
2. Refusing to answer - it would be taken as an admission of guilt, particularly since Jim issued a denial, and probably cause a mislynch due to evasivenessThe situation when you asked the question was different to the situation when Toaster asked the question. Whether or not you had a valid reason was no longer the issue, the issue was that I had been left with no choice but to come clean. Therefore there was no need for me to ask for your reason - it didn't matter, and what's more I was pretty sure the reason was "because I wanted to know lol"
What's your view on the lynch and what correlation does his current view have with said lynch?Lynching Solifuge was a reasonable move, because he was acting scummy and not posting even though there was a matter that really required his attention. The fact that the moderator decided to declare a hammer prematurely made it a much worse lynch than it should've been, though - it allowed everyone else on the Solifuge wagon to pretend they didn't really want him lynched.
I don't understand what the second part of your question means.
@LS. So basically the only reason you didn't claim yesterday was because Toaster didn't explicitly ask? B/c that's what it looks like.Because he didn't ask or provide any reason for me to claim, yes. What, I should've just claimed for no reason at all?
Incidentally: everyone read this post of ZU's. Look at how he's just passively sitting around, waiting for a chance to vote me. Tell me it looks like an attempt to find scum, and not to mislynch.
More in next post
Post by: Leafsnail on September 03, 2013, 03:27:21 pm
So you're saying that you would have voted Solifuge on Day 2 regardless of him being tracked.Yes, I would've voted him and made that case based on him attempting to tie up the vote. Him not responding to the allegation of being tracked sealed the deal, though.
Him being tracked had nothing to do with your case and you weren't the slightest bit interested in that at all.
Is this all correct?
But I didn't oppose the lynch.OK, I think I misinterpreted what you said earlier then.
After getting tracked to a kill, and after tying the vote on Day 1, Solifuge didn't bother showing up to answer any questions to him.
That's pretty scummy.
And after a day or two of not hearing from him, I was about ready to propose a Lynch All Lurkers vote on him. That's why I put my vote on him, when I thought I already had.
I was thinking more SK pretending to be a vigilante instead of just straight vig. Hence my concern about you calling him mafia.I just said "mafia" because I thought he was scum. It seems strange to assume someone is an SK when there was only one kill on the previous night, though.
How come you didn't think it was a vigkill, or at least, could have been one?Because I thought Solifuge was scum for a seperate reason.
And how was Solifuge killing Griffionday supposed to fit into your theory of how he was scum?It wasn't part of my thought process when I initially voted him. Later I thought that Solifuge had decided he was doomed, and was therefore going to keep quiet so he could give the town as little info as possible. I never really thought about his choice of kill, because scum can make weird nightkill choices sometimes and nightkill speculation isn't a strong enough reason to exonerate someone who's scummy for other reasons.
Post by: Toaster on September 03, 2013, 04:04:17 pm
WetSheep: I assume I am without asking. I said it in flavor, but it's true- my flavor describes my red dress.
For the record, this is incorrect. I did ask, and Vector told me that I was okay with changing.
1. There was (probably) no mafia-kill night 1. It's almost certain that Soli killed Griffionday, since he had a kill and Griff was his suspect.
What makes you think that the mafia didn't also target him?
Lenglon: Fair enough.
Leafsnail: why didn't you ask me any questions when I asked you if you had a double-vote?
Er... who cares if he questioned you?
Zombie U:
I think LS has the double vote, especially since Jim already has two claimed abilities (knowing how many targeted him and the thing we're talking about)
Looks like you are correct.
I don't really have too much of a case on LS,
Who do you have a case on? If no one else, why not?
Who should we lynch then?
Consider this question shot back at you.
Tiruin:
But really, I'm falling on the 'this may be a great red herring' if it's that significant--I...didn't sense anything out of the ordinary but my dream. Oh, and before anyone claims the alignment blah blah, I doubt it given my alignment. No, not a third-party.
Suspiciously Specific Denial.
In any case, I read your flavor analysis, and am not sure what you're concluding from it. Or if you're concluding anything, to be more direct. Do you suspect anyone?
Jim:
Anyways, moving on, I think Leafsnail is scum. So if we look back to the Day 2 votes on Solifuge, we see that most everybody wanted him to show up and explain himself. Leafsnail is the odd man out in that he was certain Solifuge was scum.
I don't really buy this. Since when does certainty = scummy? I thought it was the other way; passive and waffly was scum. Yes, I read your explanation, but I don't see it as a condemnation of Leafsnail at all.
Time's up so I may have missed something.
Post by: Lenglon on September 03, 2013, 04:24:25 pm
Unvote
Post by: zombie urist on September 03, 2013, 08:13:30 pm
Webadict No Rei has been kinda absent this day and is my second pick.
Tiruin: What point are you trying to make.
Post by: Jim Groovester on September 03, 2013, 08:55:42 pm
I was thinking more SK pretending to be a vigilante instead of just straight vig. Hence my concern about you calling him mafia.I just said "mafia" because I thought he was scum. It seems strange to assume someone is an SK when there was only one kill on the previous night, though.
It was a better-fitting explanation than Solifuge being mafia.
Jim:Anyways, moving on, I think Leafsnail is scum. So if we look back to the Day 2 votes on Solifuge, we see that most everybody wanted him to show up and explain himself. Leafsnail is the odd man out in that he was certain Solifuge was scum.
I don't really buy this. Since when does certainty = scummy? I thought it was the other way; passive and waffly was scum. Yes, I read your explanation, but I don't see it as a condemnation of Leafsnail at all.
Alright, look at it like this:
Scum Leafsnail recognizes Solifuge's vigkill. This is bad news for the scumteam, so Leafsnail decides to lynch Solifuge. Not a difficult task after Solifuge attempted the tie.
Leafsnail's not interested in further information, like what Solifuge has to say for himself, because he already knows what's going on. So he comes across as dead certain about Solifuge.
That's why Leafsnail's certainty at the start of D2 strikes me as scummy. You see what I'm getting at?
In any case, Leafsnail's responses have satisfied me, so I will unvote. I'll have to do a reread because otherwise I'm lost.
Post by: webadict on September 03, 2013, 11:48:28 pm
Post by: Jim Groovester on September 04, 2013, 12:29:41 am
If there's any flavor relevance beyond that, it's not something I know about.
Post by: zombie urist on September 04, 2013, 12:32:54 am
Post by: Jim Groovester on September 04, 2013, 12:46:27 am
Post by: Tiruin on September 04, 2013, 01:48:57 am
ZU
Tiruin: What point are you trying to make.I've lost that long post I made and will be remaking it soon. The point is continued there.
What do you see in that post? Also, do you think I added nothing by that post?
Is your laziness contributing to the question you fail to mark correctly above? Why are you being lazy?
Toasty Toaster
Tiruin:Well it would be weird being a third party and saying "I am Jim Groovester, who stands with the Prince" rather than alongside or whatever. It would be weirder then, to see a third-party claim town when we've no idea on what he is, so I fall back on the two other logical conclusions there--town or scum.But really, I'm falling on the 'this may be a great red herring' if it's that significant--I...didn't sense anything out of the ordinary but my dream. Oh, and before anyone claims the alignment blah blah, I doubt it given my alignment. No, not a third-party.
Suspiciously Specific Denial.
In any case, I read your flavor analysis, and am not sure what you're concluding from it. Or if you're concluding anything, to be more direct. Do you suspect anyone?
Also the conclusion along with my suspect list (and reads as I see I'm lacking in content) will be coming up soon.
PFP
Post by: webadict on September 04, 2013, 08:07:28 am
Post by: Toaster on September 04, 2013, 08:23:19 am
It wouldn't hurt.
I'm curious as to why you agreed with this idea yet didn't claim yourself. I'll be willing to claim once you resolve that.
Tiruin:
I'm really betting Jim appeared as what we see ourselves to be, somehow, or what we desire. He appeared as a swordsman-royalty-ish person in mine.
SwordsMAN?
Tiruin:Well it would be weird being a third party and saying "I am Jim Groovester, who stands with the Prince" rather than alongside or whatever. It would be weirder then, to see a third-party claim town when we've no idea on what he is, so I fall back on the two other logical conclusions there--town or scum.But really, I'm falling on the 'this may be a great red herring' if it's that significant--I...didn't sense anything out of the ordinary but my dream. Oh, and before anyone claims the alignment blah blah, I doubt it given my alignment. No, not a third-party.
Suspiciously Specific Denial.
Before I go any farther with this, is your bolded statement talking about yourself or Jim?
Wuba: What's your view on the proposed flavorclaim?
Post by: webadict on September 04, 2013, 01:46:02 pm
Wuba: What's your view on the proposed flavorclaim?I don't see the point behind it, and it sort of reveals my role, which I'd really rather not.
Post by: Vector on September 04, 2013, 02:53:39 pm
Webadict
Leafsnail - zombieurist
Tiruin
Lenglon
TheWetSheep
zombieurist - Leafsnail
Jim Groovestar
Toaster
Not voting: Webadict, Tiruin, TheWetSheep, Toaster, Lenglon, Jim Groovester
The day is scheduled to end in 23 hours, at 12:00 noon Thursday (-8GMT). For an extension to Monday, 12:00 noon (-8GMT), four votes are necessary.
Post by: Jim Groovester on September 04, 2013, 03:13:14 pm
I'm curious as to why you agreed with this idea yet didn't claim yourself. I'll be willing to claim once you resolve that.
Claim what more than I already have?
Leafsnail - zombieurist, JimGroovester
I unvoted Leafsnail.
Post by: Vector on September 04, 2013, 03:16:52 pm
Post by: TheWetSheep on September 04, 2013, 04:34:50 pm
Jim-related Claim:
Jim appeared to me as my mother, but far older and more wrinkly. This is why I asked how old Jim's character was.
Toaster:
There's not a high probability that a vig and mafia would target the same person. Especially since Griff was one of the biggest lynch targets.1. There was (probably) no mafia-kill night 1. It's almost certain that Soli killed Griffionday, since he had a kill and Griff was his suspect.
What makes you think that the mafia didn't also target him?
Jim: If you knew how you appeared to me in my dream, why did you ask why my question about your age was relevant? Seems like a logical connection to make.
Webadict: After Jim's confirmation, you've really done nothing. You have no leads and aren't even bothering to try to find new ones. Why? (I know you're busy now, but I'm talking about early D2 where you posted, but nothing to do with scumhunting.)
Vector: If town were caught in an unwinnable situation, would the game be over immediately?
Post by: Vector on September 04, 2013, 04:38:55 pm
Vector: If town were caught in an unwinnable situation, would the game be over immediately?
Yes. I dislike wasting people's time.
Post by: webadict on September 04, 2013, 04:49:11 pm
Webadict: After Jim's confirmation, you've really done nothing. You have no leads and aren't even bothering to try to find new ones. Why? (I know you're busy now, but I'm talking about early D2 where you posted, but nothing to do with scumhunting.)My lead was Jim, but he's town, and so I lost that one. I'd be going after Leafsnail, but I'm not really able to at the moment, plus the defense I've seen so far is fairly solid, and I can't argue with it.
I'm not sure where you're getting this Day 2 as it was a continuation of Day 1, but if you link something concrete, I'd be able to better access it.
Post by: Toaster on September 04, 2013, 07:08:51 pm
Wuba: What's your view on the proposed flavorclaim?I don't see the point behind it, and it sort of reveals my role, which I'd really rather not.
Fair enough.
Jim:
I'm curious as to why you agreed with this idea yet didn't claim yourself. I'll be willing to claim once you resolve that.
Claim what more than I already have?
Point. However, I did mean your flavor as opposed to your role.
Sheep: I don't like statistics in my Mafia. But fair enough if you think that way.
Extend. More to dig up here.
Post by: Tiruin on September 04, 2013, 08:02:13 pm
The dead:
Webadict the White Swan - Killed, cooked, and partially eaten Day One
Griffionday the Hopeful Prince - Eviscerated and throat cut Night One
Ottofar the Black Swan - Ritualistically sacrificed Day Two
Solifuge, AKA Lovelace - Eviscerated and offered to the Goddess Day Two
notquitethere the Gardener-Sage - Defenestrated and sliced to ribbons Night Two
The Living:
Okami no Rei => Webadict -...I'm not even sure at all on Webadict. He's replacing in Okami, yet what I've gleaned from his posts is as if he's playing as himself. Slight to no deviation from how he played before. Requires re-read. Null.
Leafsnail - Seems fairly..aggressive in a way, but it doesn't jive well how his statements are placed. It may be me, or it may be my viewpoint on his playstyle which sees his wording as always strange--that he's always hiding something, but pretty much backs it up with the usual fanfare of questions. Null.
Tiruin - "Is me. I pledge my life to the Prince and whoever stands by his side." [Me saying I'm town and stuff]
Lenglon - ...I must reread more on this. Null-town. Town-ish judging by how I'm seeing her early posts--they're pointed, and they're also blunt, but none seem to deviate into the sense of scuminess or malevolent intent.
Griffinpup => TheWetSheep - Null. Griffinpup's queries (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4494935#msg4494935) D1 don't necessarily speak much to me of initiating a conversation insomuch that it speaks to me as 'I want to get to know you better, and how's the weather?' Though that is just me stating such due to the utter lack of posts from him (RL stuffs :() and how I read his statements from thereon.
TWS however..only has 4 posts. Is nully-null null. :I
RangerCado => zombieurist - ZU's brevity speaks leagues. Leagues of which I'm pretty much hard traversing. I'm withholding my read on him as I'm catching onto his posts (I love his lurkertracker though) and finding..something pretty suspicious. Whereever that leans, is based on his response.
Jim Groovestar - That dream-claim is pretty suspicious--sure, out of a meta-tell I'd be saying he's town because it would be really really weird seeing a role which can (PM-others-at-night-flavor-type) a single message (yeah..like saying who you are is explicitly an ability :I) be on a scum-role, but given how the game is being played, I'm staying curious about him. Null-town.
Toaster - Null, still re-reading on him. Please don't take the lack of my words on his posts at the moment, but it's a personal thing with no relation to this game and stuff. No I mean nothing bad against Toaster personally but it's personal stuff <_<
> When i say null, I mean that queries are being done to further the leads. That, and no exacts can be drawn other than the usual 'I go along town/scum tell-types and shift my suspicion bar as I do so'.
> Jim's name is...totally different. As in from forever. He's a -ster, not a -star. What gives, Jim? [Most of me is screaming in-joke context but..well, asking can't hurt]
> Solifuge is the only one with an alias/other name so far and without a title--while I'd wonder on if the Goddess is truly town-aligned, seeing his flavor and intent, I'd lean on being at worst, benevolent third-party and at best, town anti-threat-Prince. I have noted the queries on this Goddess later on.
> The recent flavor still worries me. Talk about death, and other harsh stuff. We're EIGHT people left, and if there's a mislynch and succeeding NK we're down to LYLO. HOWEVER, the best guess on scum #s is derived from flavor, and my intuition is screaming to me of a malevolent third-party still alive..But that's mostly me either reacting to the flavor or me checking the list of third-parties.
> About my suspects: Listed in blue--I do have a suspect however, but I'm not claiming out loud who he is as I'm running on the psychological factor of unstated safety here--query and build-up first before giving conclusions, no matter how near a conclusion it may seem.
Toast!
Tiruin:@First statement: Swordsman, yes. The word is still categorized under gender-neutral in my mind so I found no reason to not say swordsman...But I haven't seen any texts within any of my history (yes yes, don't remind me of the prevalence of gender-type roles) so I went with the closest term I could to refer to it there.I'm really betting Jim appeared as what we see ourselves to be, somehow, or what we desire. He appeared as a swordsman-royalty-ish person in mine.
SwordsMAN?Tiruin:Well it would be weird being a third party and saying "I am Jim Groovester, who stands with the Prince" rather than alongside or whatever. It would be weirder then, to see a third-party claim town when we've no idea on what he is, so I fall back on the two other logical conclusions there--town or scum.But really, I'm falling on the 'this may be a great red herring' if it's that significant--I...didn't sense anything out of the ordinary but my dream. Oh, and before anyone claims the alignment blah blah, I doubt it given my alignment. No, not a third-party.
Suspiciously Specific Denial.
Before I go any farther with this, is your bolded statement talking about yourself or Jim?
...What did you see wrong with that? (Unless your reason is 'You're male?!' which I answer 'No, I'm not'.) Or in..male roles pretending to be female? I did state in my flavor inspection that the gathering is...mixed, to say bluntly.
@Second: I fail in English, don't I? :/
It was stated to Jim.
...I don't see how it was worded referring to me. Where did I go wrong in semantics?
TWS/Griffinpup
Vector: If town were caught in an unwinnable situation, would the game be over immediately?Strange of you to ask this when the town wincondition is 'when all threats to the Prince are gone'. While I'm unsure if this matches with scum overpowering town in the base mafia mechanics, this strikes me pretty...strange.
What made you think of that blatant question TWS? What caused you to ask such?
Afterwards, could I ask of you your reads-along with how you view Jim, Leafsnail and Webadict?
Leafsnail: What's your case on ZU? I see subtle emotional tells given your stance on him despite your crux being
[passivity]
But it's strange that you don't like them (however lacking they are, context is needed to justify that. I mean, I've been 'passive' all this time and it's been related to RL stuff; he misses questions, yeah, but its only been recently that he's been doing such [Yon (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4571790#msg4571790) two posts (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4571790#msg4571790)]) though I'd like your explanation on why his passivity is different.
Also I detect a hint of unneeded aggression in your latest posts. Why is that?
...And I'm unsure who This (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4567228#msg4567228) is directed to. Context on it please?
Zombie Urist: Tell me, if you know anything about the Goddess (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4484837#msg4484837) or any related Divinities, are they town-aligned or are aligned with the protection of the Prince? If so, do you have any information which could warn of impending doom (or anything as serious as that)?
Next, what is your opinion on why the Goddess hasn't claimed yet--I'm pretty much seeing her as town-aligned, and that she's a great power of balance in this game; that there is the usual opposite which still lives (wants to kill x, y, or Prince blah blah that sort of thing) that prevents her from claiming outright.
Lastly, seemingly irrelevant but your predecessor asked me quite an interesting set o' questions. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4490252#msg4490252) How does this set of questions and my answers help you?
I'm asking this because I forgot to ask Ms. Cado of his queries, seeing that it may have been a question-response to my query to him, but am now asking because...my intuition picks up something on you. Something big.
Something...Urist-y.
Lastlylastly: WHy aren't you responding towards LS' accusation (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4565585#msg4565585) towards you? The brevity in your posts as of late doesn't speak well of your playstyle--it's like you're being pressured and/or busy-busy.
"Why is the sky so large that the whole world can fit inside it? By that, I mean: 'What's going on over there, you seem to be under some kind of burden or weight that you aren't talking much on it and... failing to address importance.'"
Maybe its time for flavorclaim? You were a math goddess in my dream. My char is based on a female mathematician.*cough* Like I said. ♪♫♫♪Hmm-dee-dum.♪♫♪
I'll shoot a hypothetical round at you. *thwiw~*
Why're you asking for a flavorclaim from the general audience and not Jim, instead? Is there any difference if we did such?
And (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4567548#msg4567548) i-it's not like I'm hurt or-or anything..but you also didn't answer my question too. *sniff*
Tiruin looks at you with a dagger-gaze before folding up her fan and crossing her arms.
Jim:
Hey, Jim. Your power. I'm wondering why it says stuff about my flavortext in it. Like, it relates back to it in a minor way, and it's been bugging me. Is that coincidence?
Probably not. Supposedly I appeared to everyone in a dream in a form they would be comfortable with. I do know the forms I appeared as (since Vector handily provided them), but not the player the form was tailored to.Very interesting. Why aren't you claiming what forms you appeared as given the fact that it'll help the town--at least in showing what everyone is interested in to fix part of what we're finding? That's something I find very weird given that you got a large chunk of information claimed here. That, and you'd know the different role-types left after some deriving.
If there's any flavor relevance beyond that, it's not something I know about.
...And why didn't you answer my question >_> Ok, it was worded badly, but it was technically a question.
here, (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4567367#msg4567367) reiterated in this post: How do I know you're telling the truth?
Webadict: Why is Jim bugging you in that way? You're Okami No Rei! [See Jim's set of statements above]
And why not? Is it a restriction-based thing, or that you fear some sort misinterpretation would happen?Wuba: What's your view on the proposed flavorclaim?I don't see the point behind it, and it sort of reveals my role, which I'd really rather not.
Why the flavor-consciousness here? Here, (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4573474#msg4573474) my supposed query to you is answered, however another one arises from that though I mostly agree with what you say.
How do you know he is town? What makes you think that your dreams speak the truth (What I'm asking here is how do you find his action--did it influence you perfectly to say he's town, or is there a meta-role reason? On that note, is it purely on the latter or is there something else?)
...And on a personal note, I'm sensing a change in playstyle D3. Like you're dipping into brevity more and more. Something up?
Everyone: Views on why dress color is...so important here. I may be bringing up an old can of whatever metaphor it was about bringing up something old, but I'm curious.
I'm asking because Ottofar asked it and I'm going off any kind of lead I have. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4491070#msg4491070) With every kind of lead I have also pertaining to 'Omg this is my first game where I think flavor matters and is a subtle clue.'
..And that Vector's a damn good writer that it's hard piecing together what kind of puzzle exists, but that it exists in the first place really irks me that I can't see it.
Post by: Leafsnail on September 04, 2013, 08:15:35 pm
It wouldn't hurt.Looking at your list of vague flavourcops, would you say any of them are at all incriminating?
Leafsnail: What's your case on ZU? I see subtle emotional tells given your stance on him despite your crux beingHe's doing literally nothing. Not stating any real suspicions, not making any real attempt at scumhunting. Just asking some irrelevant questions and pretending to contribute.
[passivity]
But it's strange that you don't like them (however lacking they are, context is needed to justify that. I mean, I've been 'passive' all this time and it's been related to RL stuff; he misses questions, yeah, but its only been recently that he's been doing such [Yon (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4571790#msg4571790) two posts (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4571790#msg4571790)]) though I'd like your explanation on why his passivity is different.I don't think your play this game is remotely comparable to ZU's, although now that I think about it yes, you are being pretty passive. Why are you making a deflection defence on ZU's behalf? Why did you also not give an opinion on his alignment?
Also I detect a hint of unneeded aggression in your latest posts. Why is that?Because Lenglon asked me essentially the same question three times and Jim voted me for making a case on someone
...And I'm unsure who This (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4567228#msg4567228) is directed to. Context on it please?It's directed to Lenglon.
Post by: Toaster on September 04, 2013, 08:16:09 pm
@Second: I fail in English, don't I? :/
It was stated to Jim.
...I don't see how it was worded referring to me. Where did I go wrong in semantics?
Okay, I'll believe you, since your confused response seems genuine. Read just what I quoted, especially the sentence before the bolded bit- the last two words out of your mouth (keyboard) were "my alignment."
I need to read the rest more in detail, but I wanted to throw that out there.
Post by: zombie urist on September 04, 2013, 08:23:15 pm
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4543247#msg4543247
I'm a mathematician too and the first few lines of my role PM are the exact same as that of Solifuge's. You followed your goddess, all seeing-wonder, etc.
You know, I never thought the goddess was an actual player in this game until I just reread my role PM. Whoops. I don't know what would happen if she died, but its bad.
I don't care about LS' accusation because I'm being defeatist and lazy.
Jim said he can verify some of the flavor claims which is why I'm asking in general.
I asked web that question because he hasn't done much this day.
extend
Post by: Vector on September 04, 2013, 09:22:22 pm
"How so?" asked Vektor. "This can't possibly be relevant."
The Prince rubs his hands over his face, sighing.
"They said something about a Goddess of Order who had arrived in the gathering. They said she spoke to them in dreams, brought a priestess with her, and I had to ask myself--was it I who gathered the brides together? Or was it she? And for what purpose would she send me thirteen, when she could send me one?
"They fussed over who had said they would wear white and who would not, but after the second evening all who could wore black. Those who could not change the entirety of their dress did their best--one only had Horatio tie a black ribbon about her neck. We understood each other, our mutual fears, and marked ourselves with mourning clothes as I always had--if only with the suspicion that more would die, and we could no longer bear to see the red against the white.
"In any case," he said, "It took some time."
One more vote required for extension to 12:00 noon Monday (GMT-8)
Post by: Leafsnail on September 04, 2013, 09:24:15 pm
Post by: Vector on September 04, 2013, 09:34:59 pm
Post by: webadict on September 04, 2013, 09:39:05 pm
Webadict: Why is Jim bugging you in that way? You're Okami No Rei! [See Jim's set of statements above]Because as much as I enjoy lies, it'd be pretty extremely bastard-like to do that. Plus, there's more to it, which I'm sure Jim knows about, but I'd rather not say.And why not? Is it a restriction-based thing, or that you fear some sort misinterpretation would happen?Wuba: What's your view on the proposed flavorclaim?I don't see the point behind it, and it sort of reveals my role, which I'd really rather not.
Why the flavor-consciousness here? Here, (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4573474#msg4573474) my supposed query to you is answered, however another one arises from that though I mostly agree with what you say.
How do you know he is town? What makes you think that your dreams speak the truth (What I'm asking here is how do you find his action--did it influence you perfectly to say he's town, or is there a meta-role reason? On that note, is it purely on the latter or is there something else?)
...And on a personal note, I'm sensing a change in playstyle D3. Like you're dipping into brevity more and more. Something up?
And yes, I'm doing job stuff. Which I might finally have now! Yay!
Post by: Tiruin on September 04, 2013, 10:15:24 pm
:I-sthuff-Because as much as I enjoy lies, it'd be pretty extremely bastard-like to do that. Plus, there's more to it, which I'm sure Jim knows about, but I'd rather not say.
So you [Okami] and Jim are in this together..or he knows of something about your role that you can't say yourself. Is the latter correct? What's wrong with him knowing your role?
And yes, I'm doing job stuff. Which I might finally have now! Yay!*high-five*
Not deflection, that's me trying to relate on ZU's behalf because of certain things I recall with him:It wouldn't hurt.Looking at your list of vague flavourcops, would you say any of them are at all incriminating?Leafsnail: What's your case on ZU? I see subtle emotional tells given your stance on him despite your crux beingHe's doing literally nothing. Not stating any real suspicions, not making any real attempt at scumhunting. Just asking some irrelevant questions and pretending to contribute.
[passivity]But it's strange that you don't like them (however lacking they are, context is needed to justify that. I mean, I've been 'passive' all this time and it's been related to RL stuff; he misses questions, yeah, but its only been recently that he's been doing such [Yon (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4571790#msg4571790) two posts (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4571790#msg4571790)]) though I'd like your explanation on why his passivity is different.I don't think your play this game is remotely comparable to ZU's, although now that I think about it yes, you are being pretty passive. Why are you making a deflection defence on ZU's behalf? Why did you also not give an opinion on his alignment?
a. We're in college, and stuff like this is stressful so I'd want to know how the player feels as opposed to how his playstyle is reacting.
b. It's also comparative in a way, I'm giving one conclusion I could think of that would be feasible to you, and wondering how you'd respond.
c. The opinion rested until he posted.
d. Backtracing any related notes to the Goddess and stuff on that matter. Like what Soli said. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4488433#msg4488433) But darn what Soli said because it's still vague. Less vague, but still vague.
...Back to ZU.
Because I'm thinking that he is the goddess (the role) due to one of the tiiiiny tidbits.
Maybe its time for flavorclaim? You were a math goddess in my dream. My char is based on a female mathematician.This thing. A math 'goddess' would speak that 'Jim Groovester is x and x'..and the person would be a mathematician? Didn't ring right when I read it that way, and comparing to how I was addressed, I chose to punch suspicion in the face and ask. Now, I'm under the notion that the Goddess is a town-aligned power-role given how she's got guards and stuff, and somehow, for some indiscernible reason she's important. Whether it's connected to the Black Swan note is of yet unknown to me, but the notion still stands-I didn't want to claim that exactly, but wanted to see his reaction to confirm it.
...ZU
I don't care about LS' accusation because I'm being defeatist and lazy."Wat."
Why are you being defeatist and lazy?! What made you..'forget' (or..y'know, the total opposite of "You know, I never thought the goddess was an actual player in this game until I just reread my role PM. Whoops. I don't know what would happen if she died, but its bad. ") that there was someone there that you had a correlation to?
. . .Expound. Please. Because you either do know that his accusations hold certain ground without your defense, or that...
...
...
Why are you being apathetic again?
Jin: So...anything you'd like to share with us? Know that while my claim on my dream-meeting may be a generalism, it's the truth in a certain special way.
-Yon Flavor-I hate how this pulls my leg so hard that it's leaving my dragging myself back to check and recheck.
...I'm reaaaally liking how you're doing this. But my literary self is trying reverse osmosis with all those words you're doing.
It's complicated that way. :I
So the Prince thinks its a Goddess of Order, and somehow says that its relevance coincides with organization--either half of this is a lie, or the writer's trick of showing and not telling, or playing to curiosity.
There is no way anyone in public knows it's a goddess of order, but that townies who don't want to see the Prince threatened are aligned (or..like, 'with') her.
Now, judging from contextual storyline-evidence, it would be strange to see a Divinity (remember that the Prince is naive and all..with good intent u__u) to visit a mortal, herself. But she brought allies along with--allies with powers of...well, things not dedicated to protecting inherently, but in removing the threat entirely. (Soli's kill)
ZU: I will restart my question since you seemingly missed it.
What is your opinion of the Goddess in relation to your power. What do you think is her purpose of being here?
Spoiler: @ Toaster (click to show/hide)
Post by: Tiruin on September 04, 2013, 10:21:53 pm
Jim:
Because if somebody didn't get the *wink wink nudge nudge* it could be significant somehow. So blabbing about it might not be the greatest idea, especially if its significance is alignment related.How could it be a big waste of time? Now that I got my thoughts oriented, I can't see how this is any waste of time at all.
Or it could be a great big waste of time. There's a pretty good chance of that happening, actually.
Post by: zombie urist on September 04, 2013, 11:56:30 pm
I'm apathetic because I have other things to do now that are more important.
No idea, doesn't say. I guess the goddess just likes the prince.
Post by: Jim Groovester on September 05, 2013, 12:00:55 am
Point. However, I did mean your flavor as opposed to your role.
I went to sleep. Then using my magic dream powers I reached out to everybody and appeared to them as a bunch of different forms. I gave the message that I stand with the Prince. The different forms were amusing to me and I found everybody charming in their own, special ways, even the ones who had taken poor paths. Then I woke up feeling great about myself.
This is the extent of my flavor and all the detail I got. The list of forms I appeared as came after the flavor text of my PM.
If you're going to ask about who had taken poor paths, I already did. Vector tells me that I do not know.
Jim appeared to me as my mother, but far older and more wrinkly. This is why I asked how old Jim's character was.
. . .
Jim: If you knew how you appeared to me in my dream, why did you ask why my question about your age was relevant? Seems like a logical connection to make.
Yeah, it's a logical connection, but I did not know I appeared to you as your mother.
I know I appeared to somebody as an aged mother, but I did not know that I appeared as that to you, nor that I appeared to you as your mother in particular.
It wouldn't hurt.Looking at your list of vague flavourcops, would you say any of them are at all incriminating?
Not incriminating on their own, no.
The player and the context with which I appeared may yield useful clues.
Plus, there's more to it, which I'm sure Jim knows about, but I'd rather not say.
Yeah, don't count on that. I have no idea what you're talking about.
> Jim's name is...totally different. As in from forever. He's a -ster, not a -star. What gives, Jim? [Most of me is screaming in-joke context but..well, asking can't hurt]
I have on occasion been called Jim Groovestar on the basis that it's cooler than Jim Groovester. In any case, you'll have to ask Vector why I'm referred to as Jim Groovestar, since she's the one who first put my name down like that in the OP.
You might also ask her why for Day 2 she wrote down Wubadub on the vote counts instead of Webadict.
If I were to take a guess, I think she might be having a little fun.
Very interesting. Why aren't you claiming what forms you appeared as given the fact that it'll help the town--at least in showing what everyone is interested in to fix part of what we're finding? That's something I find very weird given that you got a large chunk of information claimed here. That, and you'd know the different role-types left after some deriving.
I'd like to think it would be more useful if everybody claimed what they saw me as in their dreams and I checked it against the list in secret, than for everybody to check it against the list in public.
...And why didn't you answer my question >_> Ok, it was worded badly, but it was technically a question.
here, (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4567367#msg4567367) reiterated in this post: How do I know you're telling the truth?
I guess you don't for certain. It's not something you're required to believe if for some reason you choose not to.
Everyone: Views on why dress color is...so important here. I may be bringing up an old can of whatever metaphor it was about bringing up something old, but I'm curious.
I don't think it is.
Jin: So...anything you'd like to share with us? Know that while my claim on my dream-meeting may be a generalism, it's the truth in a certain special way.
No, not really.
I'm not sure what you're asking or what you're getting at. If you're asking if I know what form I appeared to you as based on the limited amount of clues you have provided, the answer is, yes, I believe I do.
Winged ghost-prince, right?
Why did I appear to you as a winged ghost-prince? You weren't one of the princesses who was around when the Prince's elder brother was slain, were you?
How could it be a big waste of time? Now that I got my thoughts oriented, I can't see how this is any waste of time at all.
There's always the chance that flavor explorations yield no fruit.
Post by: Tiruin on September 05, 2013, 04:21:38 am
Winged ghost-prince, right?Tiruin nods and smiles, uncrossing her arms.
"In a way, yes. Now I find I can believe you."
Quote
Why did I appear to you as a winged ghost-prince? You weren't one of the princesses who was around when the Prince's elder brother was slain, were you?Nope on the second along with a stamp of curiosity. 'I've no idea' on the first but I'm guessing it's focusing on my desire--my ability.
..And wasn't the elder brother slain in the BM? Regardless, no. I wasn't around anywhere overseas or on or near that voyage the elder brother was on.
Post by: Tiruin on September 05, 2013, 04:26:47 am
Cont.
I'd like to think it would be more useful if everybody claimed what they saw me as in their dreams and I checked it against the list in secret, than for everybody to check it against the list in public....Makes more sense now that I think of it. But you could still be lying. :I
Anyway, why'd you choose to give yon message now of all times? And the explicit wording of you standing with the Prince? There was what my suspicion also drew upon--maybe showcasing your desire instead.
..Which in context declaims itself now that I see your honesty there.
"However I'll ask you one question."
I went to sleep. Then using my magic dream powers I reached out to everybody and appeared to them as a bunch of different forms. I gave the message that I stand with the Prince. The different forms were amusing to me and I found everybody charming in their own, special ways, even the ones who had taken poor paths. Then I woke up feeling great about myself.Paths? People took..paths? As in, you manifested as their intent, or was it something else?
This is the extent of my flavor and all the detail I got. The list of forms I appeared as came after the flavor text of my PM.
If you're going to ask about who had taken poor paths, I already did. Vector tells me that I do not know.
What was your intent in your dreams aside from the message--what did you want us to think you were?
..I'm really confused on that 'poor paths' note there. So you see those who are..unhappy?
Post by: webadict on September 05, 2013, 10:18:37 am
No? Why, you'd think you would. Alright, carry on.Plus, there's more to it, which I'm sure Jim knows about, but I'd rather not say.
Yeah, don't count on that. I have no idea what you're talking about.
Haha, no, not quite. If anything, I was very much opposed to him, but his action last Night just seems incredibly overpowered to give to scum. Though, I guess I just assume that. Meh.:I-sthuff-Because as much as I enjoy lies, it'd be pretty extremely bastard-like to do that. Plus, there's more to it, which I'm sure Jim knows about, but I'd rather not say.
So you [Okami] and Jim are in this together..or he knows of something about your role that you can't say yourself. Is the latter correct? What's wrong with him knowing your role?And yes, I'm doing job stuff. Which I might finally have now! Yay!*high-five*
I'm assuming Jim could easily parse my role, but I'd rather no one else knew it yet.
Also, phone interview appears to have gone well! Hopefully, the in-person one goes wonderfully!
Post by: TheWetSheep on September 05, 2013, 06:14:34 pm
The scum wincon was to have everyone else dead, not to equal/outnumber the town. My question was to see whether town would lose if there were more Black Swan Cohort members than town members. I suppose a more specific question wouldn't hurt, though.
TWS/GriffinpupVector: If town were caught in an unwinnable situation, would the game be over immediately?Strange of you to ask this when the town wincondition is 'when all threats to the Prince are gone'. While I'm unsure if this matches with scum overpowering town in the base mafia mechanics, this strikes me pretty...strange.
What made you think of that blatant question TWS? What caused you to ask such?
Vector: If the Black Swan Cohort equaled/outnumbered the town, would the game be over?
Quote
Afterwards, could I ask of you your reads-along with how you view Jim, Leafsnail and Webadict?I suppose you could. They won't be detailed reads now, though, since I'm again low on time.
Jim is probably town because of his ability. I sort of see what Webadict was saying d1 though.
Leafsnail is pretty null to me; I haven't seen much out of the ordinary from him.
Webadict is slightly suspicious. My Jim-flavour had absolutely nothing to do with my role, so I'm a bit suspicious about Webadict saying his did.Did anyone else's Jim-flavour reveal their role? I feel like Web could be covering up some suspicious flavour.
Jim: Was your ability to send any message you wanted, or to confirm that you stood by the prince? (Sorry if you've said it already, my computer is really slow and I don't want to trawl)
Post by: Tiruin on September 05, 2013, 06:31:55 pm
My Jim-flavour had absolutely nothing to do with my role, so I'm a bit suspicious about Webadict saying his did.Did anyone else's Jim-flavour reveal their role? I feel like Web could be covering up some suspicious flavour.I'm pretty sure he knows who I am now, if he reads back.
"But..I don't see how it reveals his role--I mean sure, the figure he took on was tangible enough to cause me to be..someone scared/confused/listening-ish..like how you'd approach someone trying to tell you something (that I missed on first read).
But I didn't see his face and/or expression. That, and he broke the laws of physics, mostly by being a spirit-type translucent person who I couldn't discern the face of. Judging from what I know of..ghosts, it fits perfectly...So yeah." I mean, really. Vector got the perspective so perfect that I skipped it.
...
You do know that a majority vote is a factor, right? Oh, and it would end up in a hilarious 'I VOTE YOU' ending if that's the case, hence my assumption back there.The scum wincon was to have everyone else dead, not to equal/outnumber the town. My question was to see whether town would lose if there were more Black Swan Cohort members than town members. I suppose a more specific question wouldn't hurt, though.
TWS/GriffinpupVector: If town were caught in an unwinnable situation, would the game be over immediately?Strange of you to ask this when the town wincondition is 'when all threats to the Prince are gone'. While I'm unsure if this matches with scum overpowering town in the base mafia mechanics, this strikes me pretty...strange.
What made you think of that blatant question TWS? What caused you to ask such?
Vector: If the Black Swan Cohort equaled/outnumbered the town, would the game be over?
...Though, fine. I'm interested in that question to Vector too.
But I ask, why are you still so interested in that--like, in those specifics? Do you have something to share on that matter?
Post by: Leafsnail on September 05, 2013, 08:37:05 pm
Ugh. The biggest reason I think its LS is because he was actively shutting down discussion.There was no discussion to shut down.
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4543247#msg4543247
Not deflection, that's me trying to relate on ZU's behalf because of certain things I recall with him:You can still give an opinion, though, even if the opinion is "null". I don't get why you're deferring judgment on him alone while also defending him like this.
a. We're in college, and stuff like this is stressful so I'd want to know how the player feels as opposed to how his playstyle is reacting.
b. It's also comparative in a way, I'm giving one conclusion I could think of that would be feasible to you, and wondering how you'd respond.
c. The opinion rested until he posted.
d. Backtracing any related notes to the Goddess and stuff on that matter. Like what Soli said. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4488433#msg4488433) But darn what Soli said because it's still vague. Less vague, but still vague.
I don't care about LS' accusation because I'm being defeatist and lazy.Okay.
Not deflection, that's me trying to relate on ZU's behalf because of certain things I recall with him:You can still give an opinion, though, even if the opinion is "null". I don't get why you're deferring judgment on him alone while also defending him like this.
a. We're in college, and stuff like this is stressful so I'd want to know how the player feels as opposed to how his playstyle is reacting.
b. It's also comparative in a way, I'm giving one conclusion I could think of that would be feasible to you, and wondering how you'd respond.
c. The opinion rested until he posted.
d. Backtracing any related notes to the Goddess and stuff on that matter. Like what Soli said. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4488433#msg4488433) But darn what Soli said because it's still vague. Less vague, but still vague.
Post by: Tiruin on September 05, 2013, 09:07:13 pm
You can still give an opinion, though, even if the opinion is "null". I don't get why you're deferring judgment on him alone while also defending him like this.It's pretty hard giving an opinion when the person I'm giving it on is lacking--that's what I'm referring to by my statements there, and the list I gave were things I thought was happening to him..and mixed with reasoning.
But defending? Why are you so keen to use that term when it's not [...to me, but it generally doesn't even look like it from an observer viewpoint], unless you see it in a different way.
Post by: Vector on September 05, 2013, 09:40:42 pm
Vector: If the Black Swan Cohort equaled/outnumbered the town, would the game be over?
That's basically rolefishing, so I'm not answering that question.
Post by: webadict on September 05, 2013, 09:50:01 pm
Jim is probably town because of his ability. I sort of see what Webadict was saying d1 though.What was your general understanding of what I was saying D1?
Post by: Toaster on September 05, 2013, 09:54:00 pm
How do you know he is town? What makes you think that your dreams speak the truth (What I'm asking here is how do you find his action--did it influence you perfectly to say he's town, or is there a meta-role reason? On that note, is it purely on the latter or is there something else?)Because as much as I enjoy lies, it'd be pretty extremely bastard-like to do that. Plus, there's more to it, which I'm sure Jim knows about, but I'd rather not say.
[/quote]
Ahem. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=63487.msg1552962#msg1552962)
(No, I'm not saying this makes him scum. I'm just mostly taking it as null.)
Spoiler: OOC to Solifuge (click to show/hide)
In any case, Jim appeared to me as a flower. My flavor doesn't mention any goddess, or the Bleeding Nine.
Jim: Did Vector say how many had taken poor paths?
Did you intentionally use the ability or did it automatically fire off N2? Why use it then, if a choice? Also, could you choose the message/targets? (Blah Tiruin asked a lot of this) (And TWS too dammit)
Tiruin: What makes you think the Goddess is a player?
TWS: I saw some correlation in Jim's flavor to my own flavor, and I can understand why Jim appeared to me the way she did.
Post by: Solifuge on September 05, 2013, 10:51:00 pm
Spoiler: OOC to Solifuge (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: OOC from beyond the graaaaaave (click to show/hide)
Post by: Jim Groovester on September 05, 2013, 11:35:54 pm
..And wasn't the elder brother slain in the BM? Regardless, no. I wasn't around anywhere overseas or on or near that voyage the elder brother was on.
It appears I'm mixing up the flavor.
He dislikes retracting his decisions, which is perhaps why he has kept the current entourage despite rumors of plotted murder.
Perhaps he doesn't want to disappoint anyone. Perhaps he is simply too lazy or sad to look for another thirteen; lonely enough to keep around the knife that would kill him.
I took this line in the flavor to mean that some of the present princesses were involved in the elder brother's death.
Paths? People took..paths? As in, you manifested as their intent, or was it something else?
Poor paths, as in the kind of path somebody might take that would turn them eeeeeeevil.
What was your intent in your dreams aside from the message--what did you want us to think you were?
I had no intent besides the message.
Anyway, why'd you choose to give yon message now of all times? And the explicit wording of you standing with the Prince? There was what my suspicion also drew upon--maybe showcasing your desire instead.
Jim: Was your ability to send any message you wanted, or to confirm that you stood by the prince? (Sorry if you've said it already, my computer is really slow and I don't want to trawl)
Did you intentionally use the ability or did it automatically fire off N2? Why use it then, if a choice? Also, could you choose the message/targets? (Blah Tiruin asked a lot of this) (And TWS too dammit)
On N1 my action was interrupted by who knows what action, so N2 was the only night I could send it out. Further, Vector changed up my role on N2 so that I dreamed with everybody, whereas my original role has me sharing a dream with only one person.
I did not get to choose the contents of the message that I sent out.
Sending out the message was an intentional night action. As for why now, why not now? I suppose a potent argument could be made for doing it the night before lylo, but because of cagey mod who knows when that's going to end up being. Getting it out sooner rather than later seemed like a better choice.
I'm pretty sure he knows who I am now, if he reads back.
I'll keep this in mind that you have apparently given away enough clues to identify yourself when I do my reread.
Jim: Did Vector say how many had taken poor paths?
She did not. And I doubt that if I asked I would get that sort of meta information.
Blah blah I'll get to a reread sometime.
Post by: Tiruin on September 05, 2013, 11:57:18 pm
Tiruin: What makes you think the Goddess is a player?A hunch, actually. It was never an exact, just that I thought the Goddess was a player which I expounded upon.
Until ZU said so.
Though..Jim's powers to infiltrate the subconscious is pretty interesting.
Everyone: Claim what you saw Jim as.
Also, something weird with the wincons.
Scum (or..the BS Cohort) Wins only when all others outside their faction is killed (yeah, this can't be a cult-based game.)
Town wins when all threats to the Prince are gone.
...So by logical example, Town wins by default given that the Prince still lives and is able to tell our story.
Loophole sighted.
Oh, and the OP flavor changed by the way. I'm loving it, but the lie is a bit clearer from here. Unsure which though.
But there are definites: Town are technically opposed to Scum--the cohort. Whoever this Goddess is, it ain't one of Order. Or..perhaps it is, but the strange thing about it is that the Prince talks about it as a narrator rather than an observer.
And i'm typing straight out of memory here because I'm drawing conclusions from what happens in the future. Woo. Still, assuming he's all telling truths, part of what he says is unreliable (Unreliable narrator ftw~~)
Anyway, I'm pretty unsure about the whole deal. Whether Solifuge did the kills (A stiletto is more suited for stabbing or precise wounds), the weird thing is the shift in how they were killed. It can be assumed that the killer always uses something they currently have.
Like Griffy. He died via stiletto, as assumed by the gruesome scene.
Solifuge died via..some weird thing. Attributed to the lynch, I'm betting the flavor on these are wide and various. Just like that modkill.
However, NQT. He died via defenestration, but this wasn't the cause. As in 'admiring the scenery outside the window firsthand'. He was shoved out of some high place. Oh, and 32 darn punctures at his front. Unless someone has a hidden dagger or whatever, this is truly insane.
"Horatio! How large were the wounds on the old man we saw by the gate?"
Toaster:
In any case, Jim appeared to me as a flower. My flavor doesn't mention any goddess, or the Bleeding Nine.Automatically? How is something like that automatic?
Jim: Did Vector say how many had taken poor paths?
Did you intentionally use the ability or did it automatically fire off N2?
Vector: I examine [as in look at and perhaps admire by aesthetics] the people around me. What do I see?
"Note to scum. You'll never win the Prince's heart until you kill us all. Enjoy being SKs, as your intentions are never going to be pure in heart. Resort to win a man over material influence, and rid the rest of equal chance. I'd ask why you're all doing this, but I'm expecting silence."
..Yeah the flavor got me again.
Spoiler: NQT Flavor OOC (click to show/hide)
PPE: Jin
Quote
I'll keep this in mind that you have apparently given away enough clues to identify yourself when I do my reread.Bahaha, *scoffs*
Only to the most astute, and even then--given that you've a hand up over the rest, then you'll know when you see it.
Quote
On N1 my action was interrupted by who knows what action, so N2 was the only night I could send it out. Further, Vector changed up my role on N2 so that I dreamed with everybody, whereas my original role has me sharing a dream with only one person.A significant person, it seems. Why did you pick that person? And if possible, who-and why?
Quote
Poor paths, as in the kind of path somebody might take that would turn them eeeeeeevil.In which you don't give it out, huh. Why aren't you?
Post by: Lenglon on September 06, 2013, 12:46:10 am
Jim: You appeared as a woman with 13 torsos.
Did anyone else's Jim-flavour reveal their role?No
Jim: Why such a strange appearance?
Jim: Why did the dream change my appearance?
Post by: zombie urist on September 06, 2013, 01:01:19 am
I can't be sure the goddess is a player, but the flavor suggests she is.
Non-voters should vote LS for his "don't think, just lynch Solifuge" attitude yesterday. :)
Post by: Tiruin on September 06, 2013, 01:05:08 am
wtf? how does that even work?Please respond to my queries >_>
I can't be sure the goddess is a player, but the flavor suggests she is.
Non-voters should vote LS for his "don't think, just lynch Solifuge" attitude yesterday. :)
And yeah, his attitude was such..as in, not excusing Ludum Dare, but this seems sort of vague. Expound,
Quote
As for why now, why not now? I suppose a potent argument could be made for doing it the night before lylo, but because of cagey mod who knows when that's going to end up being....So you blame the mod?
Post by: Vector on September 06, 2013, 02:03:25 am
And, furthermore--not all threats are existential. The Prince is rather innocent, isn't he?
Horatio has taken to habitually standing with his hands tucked behind his back, now, and does not touch people--instead stopping an inch away. He does not approach the Prince at all.
"The old man's wounds?" he says, somewhat unsteadily. "They were long and shallow, deeper towards the middle, and curved downwards a little at each end.
". . . What does someone like you want to know a thing like that? You can count on the Pri--"
He closes his mouth tight, walks away, and doesn't finish his thought.
You look around you, at the other girls. They seem a little shocked at your exchange, and look at Horatio as though he has gone mad. Around you are. . . seven women in black dresses, wearing wilted flowers in their hair, whose exhaustion is hurting their looks.
Because folks seem to be floundering a lot, and I don't think another note in flavortext is going to get through:
I realize that I may be frustrating you, but much like in any of Web's BYORs or countless other games I'm not going to explicitly tell you exactly which roles are present. And I'm not going to tell you when LYLO is. (Seriously? This isn't a BM) I'm just going to say that there is information you have that you could use more productively (though you may not have shared it), and that this is fundamentally a game of Mafia. Not a Mafia-like, it's Mafia, just as it states in the OP. There's no embedded RTD or anything. Most of the tricks that could have been present fizzled, but there's a couple left. I'm trying something I've never seen before, but again--it is Mafia.
But because we've had an extraordinarily slow and rocky start, I'm going to provide some hints.
Spoiler: 1 (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: 2 (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: 3 (click to show/hide)
Balance. Moderation. If the question would be a gamebreaker, I won't answer it. So ask other questions--ask more questions of each other, figure out who you can trust and what the cost of not trusting is, and go for broke.
You won't be provided with a mass flavor inspection, because that would make me a shitty mod. You're going to have to extract information from each other, as usual. Use what you have to get what you want. You had everything you needed to solve the puzzle from the very beginning.
And with that, I really can't say any more about the structure of the game.
Post by: zombie urist on September 06, 2013, 02:19:36 am
Is the duck the goddess?
Are there any more dudes in disguise among us?
Should we no lynch?
Are these rhetorical questions or serious ones?
Please respond to my queries >_>I'm pretty sure I got all of them but I'm too busy to check. Sorry.
Also a bunch of LS's posts yday were all like "Solifuge is obv scum. Lynch him." "He's scum, lynch him", etc. Which by itself isn't scummy, but it made me feel like he wanted to get day over ASAP and stifle discussion. I still have a bad taste over the double voter claim thingy.
Post by: Jim Groovester on September 06, 2013, 03:52:00 am
UGH GUYS YOURE NOT GETTING IT GOSH
Alright, if the mod has to come in and give us hints and tell us in no uncertain terms that exploring flavor might be a useful fucking thing to do, maybe we should take the hint.
It's time for a mass flavor claim. Claim everything that you know. If you are not forthcoming then I will vote you and recommend others do the same.
If we are going to solve this puzzle we need pieces, and we are solving this fucking puzzle.
I am Sleeping Beauty. While dreaming I can pretty much do anything imaginable and have. I was sent here by my parents because they wanted to see if all my wild dreams could be cured by the Prince's touch (hubba hubba), but instead I was put into the marriage lottery. I control where I go and what I dream and always have and I'm not willing to give that up.
I alerted everybody to the threats the Prince faced because I discovered it while I was dreaming and I talk in my sleep.
The Prince doesn't seem to be very choosy with the people he's gathered and this is something I like about him. He's still dreaming, like me.
The way my role worked is that I have a list of topics I can choose to dream about and a person to share them with. The list is long and varied. The result is that I get flavor, which may or may not be useless.
On N1, I attempted to dream with Solifuge about the Writer's Curse. I suspected Solifuge and had no idea what my role would do and the Writer's Curse sounded like an ominous enough topic to dream about that if he was guilty I might get revealing information. Sadly, somebody woke me up and then led me around the castle. I fell asleep while I was walking around and dreamed about ducks and princes, which was Griffionday's thingy. I woke up with aching feet and a split toenail.
On N2, after Ottofar was modkilled, apparently my role changed from Sleeping Beauty to Dreaming Goddess. The basic concept remained the same; I choose a topic to dream about, but now I get to share it with everybody, and now I can't be interrupted by things that from a flavor perspective might reasonably be expected to wake me up.
After the modkill, when I received notice about the changes to my role, I also received flavor about Ottofar's modkill. It begins with me dreaming about Solifuge, and then I feel the presence of the youngest prince (deceased) and his family, and the White Swan (also deceased) and her lover. Apparently I added the land of the dead to potential dreamscapes.
I sense Ottofar and go to her, and she's conflicted about getting her revenge but it being unsatisfying to her. I suggest she pay her respects to the White Swan's grave, and she does so. I attempt to read her feelings, but she begins panicking, and I become much more forceful with my attempts to read her. I eventually force a connection, and Ottofar shares with me all the dreamscapes I regularly visit, and then her heart stops. I then wake up, and I can't feel the spirits of the dead as strongly, but now I can feel the spirits of the living better than ever. I feel like I can swallow all of humanity whole.
As part of my N2 action, I chose to dream about a bell. I imagined a bell, and the rest of the flavor is as I've described it previously. I visited everybody in their dreams, announced that I stood with the Prince, and appeared as a form that would be familiar to them, and flattering to me.
If you're paying attention, you'll recognize that my role as described here is different than what I claimed. I wanted to claim my role as something of a one-shot alignment announcer thing to make myself less of a NK target, in the hopes I'd be able to dream again and hopefully get useful flavor.
But this is my full claim, including flavor.
I reread all the flavor and some things stuck out to me.
Is the duck the goddess?
Checking the description of the Goddess in Solifuge's role PM, I believe the Goddess is me.
*GAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAASP*
On her forehead the letters 'Q. E. S.' appeared.
Anybody have any idea what Q. E. S. stands for?
"'Open the window,' said one of the girls, tugging my sleeve. 'Please. You must open the window and close the door. She has lost her way, but open the window and close the door for her, please, before it's too late.'
The window was open, but so was the door. I was unsure if his spirit had been able to depart--or if it was stuck in that castle with us."
I have no idea if this is significant but spirits leaving through windows has been mentioned twice now.
But what you know of him is that he is kind, if naive; both cheerful and melancholy by turns, if sweetly so; and easily given to distant transports of imagination. These dreams fling him across time and space, and he is inattentive in those moments, save to those who would deepen the illusion.
Yeah, sorry, gals.
The Prince? He's mine, all mine.
MOD, what do we know about Mother Death that's mentioned in the flavor?
Post by: Jim Groovester on September 06, 2013, 04:34:56 am
UGH GUYS YOURE NOT GETTING IT GOSH
Also, this is such a mathematician's view of a mafia game.
Oh, sure, you can brute-force it, but there is an elegant solution, if you're clever enough to find it.
Post by: Tiruin on September 06, 2013, 04:43:17 am
Because folks seem to be floundering a lot, and I don't think another note in flavortext is going to get through:I'm far from frustrated--I've a whole MS word document filled with my speculations and I'm discarding and reinforcing those I'm matching up as I re-read deeper.
I realize that I may be frustrating you, but[...]
Not frustrated--I do know that this game is balanced, and that your notes are darn good, don't worry. :)
There's also a Philosopher's view of the game, which is somewhat mostly every my viewpoint in everything..so...yeah it takes me time to get the correct feel of the current scenario.UGH GUYS YOURE NOT GETTING IT GOSH
...I've a feeling Vector is deeply disappointed :/
PFP - Cooking. Will get my everything later up + massclaim and stuff.
Post by: Tiruin on September 06, 2013, 04:52:11 am
Jim
Quote
I have no idea if this is significant but spirits leaving through windows has been mentioned twice now.It's significant enough that one of us asked the prince to do that pertaining to Solifuge's lynch flavor. Which may very much be ZU's character talking.
...
Quote
The Prince? He's mine, all mine.*cough obsessive third-party cough*
I'm really unsure about you, Jim. Maybe your wincon is to get the Prince all for yourself. :v Yes this is me being a skeptic though most of me totally trusts you like a younger version of me trusting a teddy bear. It's complicated, but it's also simple.
Post by: Toaster on September 06, 2013, 10:30:06 am
I am Toaster the Rose. Like, literally, a rose. I was growing in the garden until suddenly I was a girl, which confused me as one might expect. My flavor is all lower case and uses short declarative sentences with little punctuation, much like someone who isn't used to English (or perhaps the concept of language) would. I like seeing roses picked because that means more are planted and it's good for the ROSE CLAN (a concept, all caps preserved, mentioned three times in my PM. Anyone else get that?) I like giving the other girls roses to (and I wish I could quote the exact wording for this because it's hilarious) help them get "pollinated" wink wink nudge nudge. I like the Prince because his attention is like sunlight.
Also, all you other princesses keep stopping me from eating dirt.
N1, my flavor mentions me convincing Horatio to bury Web 1.0 in the garden, which he agreed to. I thought she'd be good fertilizer. Also I was confused about why people don't work together- the flowers do.
N2, I dreamed I was a rose again, and Jim came to me as a woman in a red dress, facing the sun. She also had many small faces and arms growing out of her torso. This also confused me, because I didn't realize what a dream was at all until I woke up.
Someone said something about a possibility of "paired" roles- if so, I must have been paired to NQT since he was the gardener. I got zero mention of him in flavor, though.
I'm not sure about full claiming just yet, but I will say Web may know what I can do since I actioned him last night. I don't know if he got a flavor or mechanical notification, but if he did he should be able to affirm that.
Anyone have any other garden-related flavor? Anyone else either not human or not female?
Post by: zombie urist on September 06, 2013, 10:49:35 am
QES is probably QED with a typo?
Post by: zombie urist on September 06, 2013, 10:55:54 am
Me, Solifuge, Goddess Jim
Gardener, Rose, Lily?
Duck duck goose???
LOL
Post by: zombie urist on September 06, 2013, 10:57:29 am
Also 7 = 13/2 rounded up I guess reinforces pairs or something.
Post by: Leafsnail on September 06, 2013, 11:13:28 am
They're made of iron and were bound to my feet as punishment for some unspecified thing I didn't do a long time ago. They usually prevent me from dancing and make me walk like an old woman.
However, I've been able to walk normally and dance since I arrived at the castle due to hearing some beautiful and maybe magical music (this part may relate to somebody else's role). I was thus able to dance with the Prince, and that gave me newly discovered confidence which means my vote counts twice. However, my role PM vaguely implies that this confidence will be gone if I stop dancing.
Post by: Leafsnail on September 06, 2013, 11:23:26 am
On night two I had a dream. I was in a ballgown and expecting the Prince, but instead an invisible figure danced with me. I accidentally trod on her foot (which turned visible afterwards) before seeing a patch of decorated white cloth around its invisible waist, after which I realized it was a woman. We danced a bit more before it revealed itself as Jim Groovester who stands with the prince and disappeared. I kept waiting afterwards.
Post by: zombie urist on September 06, 2013, 11:37:41 am
Post by: zombie urist on September 06, 2013, 11:44:45 am
Post by: Leafsnail on September 06, 2013, 11:53:58 am
webadict <-> Ottofar: Black and white swans. Rival sisters.
zombie urist -> Jim Groovester <- Solifuge. Servant -> Goddess <- Servant? Jim's dream powers make it fairly likely.
Griffionday -> Currently unknown duck
Implicit links:
NQT (gardener sage) <-> Toaster (plant)
Leafsnail -> Currently unknown musician
As far as I can tell we have no claims from TheWetSheep, Lenglon, Tiruin or webadict II. If two of the unclaimed people are the Duck and Musician and the other two are linked then we could have all the links sorted.
Post by: Lenglon on September 06, 2013, 11:54:46 am
"I... what? I don't know... um, Zombie, I don't understand what you're saying, but it clearly has something to do with me. I don't remember anything about a... QES?-thing? from back then. I don't even... what?"
Read the purple text for my claim
I can confirm Toaster actioned Web last night, as well as most of Toaster's flavor paralleling my own.
Jim: why did you ignore my questions?
lenglon should have a qes day 1 pfpI don't even know what you're talking about. PMing Vector now.
ZU:Please translate.
Post by: webadict on September 06, 2013, 11:58:39 am
I'm afraid I'm your opposite in a way, Leafsnail. I've been a magnificent dancer all of my life, thanks to my red slippers. But, the reason for this is that the slippers are cursed. I must dance whenever I hear music, and I would wish dearly that I could dance of my own accord. I also know there's a musician around here, making us a trio.
Last Night, I had an odd dream where even though I heard music, I didn't have to dance, and in fact I could remove my slippers, and it was magnificent, and then Jim appeared and said Prince-standing stuff, and then I woke up.
My previous role was the White Swan, the opposite of the Black Swan. And look at that, I've been ninja'd. Oh well.
Post by: Leafsnail on September 06, 2013, 12:02:46 pm
Actually, I think the inexplicable animation of Lenglon and Toaster may be something to do with you. Could you try asking Vector if you've ever had any dreams about plants becoming human or anything?
Post by: Toaster on September 06, 2013, 12:17:06 pm
I couldn't see any flavor hints in their early posts.
Post by: Leafsnail on September 06, 2013, 12:18:59 pm
webadict I <-> Ottofar: Black and white swans. Rival sisters.
zombie urist -> Jim Groovester <- Solifuge
Griffionday (<?)-> Currently unknown duck
Toaster -> NQT <- Lenglon
Leafsnail -> Currently unknown musician <- webadict II
That would seem to imply we have three sets of three and two sets of two. It seems like:
- Players in a pair know of the other player in their pair, assuming this holds true for the duck. The people in a pair are on equal footing (sisters, or lovers).
- Each trio seems to have two equivalent (opposite?) members (me and webadict II, Toaster and Lenglon, zombie urist and Solifuge) and then an "odd one out" (the unknown musician, NQT, Jim).
Could we talk about flowers for a moment, by the way? We were all wearing red roses at the start. My role PM mentions me wearing yellow roses later. Does anyone have any mentions of wearing lillies in theirs?
Post by: Leafsnail on September 06, 2013, 12:37:58 pm
webadict II -> Prince <- Ottofar
Griffionday -> Unknown duck <- Prince's older brother
That would mean the goddess is doing something with two opposed forces and a mediator in the middle, maybe.
Post by: zombie urist on September 06, 2013, 12:39:03 pm
dunno anout dress and flowers
web: what do u mean by generally? what are you basimg that on?
Post by: Toaster on September 06, 2013, 12:39:46 pm
webadict I <-> Ottofar: Black and white swans. Rival sisters.
zombie urist -> Jim Groovester <- Solifuge
Griffionday (<?)-> Currently unknown duck
Toaster -> NQT <- Lenglon
Leafsnail -> Currently unknown musician <- webadict II
Updated with flipped alignments. Perhaps each "set" contains one anti-town person? Three mafia is expected in a 13 player game, with two third parties seeming to be reasonable.
PPE: That does seem possible, with two pairs competing for the affection of the central person? Except I'd say the duck connection is a stretch, especially without the claim of the duck.
As an aside, Vector wants us to remember the them of "Love and Synthesis." I remarked to her that perhaps Photosynthesis was more appropriate.
Post by: Lenglon on September 06, 2013, 12:44:10 pm
Post by: webadict on September 06, 2013, 12:48:30 pm
pfp im a doctor i targetted lenglon n1 and jim n2... Uh... what?
dunno anout dress and flowers
web: what do u mean by generally? what are you basimg that on?
Post by: zombie urist on September 06, 2013, 12:51:36 pm
Post by: Toaster on September 06, 2013, 12:59:02 pm
Post by: Leafsnail on September 06, 2013, 01:10:09 pm
pfp im a doctor i targetted lenglon n1 and jim n2That sets up a decent "opposition" with Solifuge.
I think lillies/roses could be an opposition pair too - roses are generally associated with passion and fiery love, while lillies are generally associated with shy and retiring purity. Or male/female maybe. The other oppositions seem fairly obvious, other than the still unclear Griffionday group.
Post by: Leafsnail on September 06, 2013, 01:12:05 pm
Post by: zombie urist on September 06, 2013, 01:21:01 pm
Oh right, and Jim: generally, a Sleeping Goddess in a mafia game doesn't merely perceive things with her dreams. She changes the world to fit her dreams. That is to say, if a Sleeping Goddess were to imagine threats to a Prince, threats would appear.Why generally? What are you basing this on?
ZU, I think you need a new phone.I'm using iphone5 >_> I just have autocorrect off.
PM returned, I know nothing of QESWell I guess normally ppl don't know they are protected, but maybe Jim is different.
Leafsnail: Do you love the musician for letting you dance?
Post by: Vector on September 06, 2013, 01:26:25 pm
"Oh?"
"Yes. With a great deal of shuffling and whispering. For a moment I imagined what it would have looked like, had they done so on the first day--the full effect. But as it was eight women in black in a straggly arrangement, perhaps some of the impact was lost.
"In any case, I could no longer hear all that they said. There was much gossiping and fluttering of fans. I thought, at the time, that it was cute."
"There is a charm to the way ladies gather and talk with such passion, as though they had anything important to say. Eyes flashing, lips red, squabbling over the smallest infraction. . ."
"I would say with all respect, Sir Barkeep, that you must not know much of women."
Quote
MOD, what do we know about Mother Death that's mentioned in the flavor?
She's a local goddess in the vein of Chernobog. Some of you are unfamiliar with her, due to not being from these parts. Her followers mandate that bodies be buried and that nothing be done to them by way of preservation or ceremony. Their contention is that the experience of death itself is pure and the full experience of this purity is necessary to send souls safely to the afterlife.
Post by: Leafsnail on September 06, 2013, 01:53:56 pm
Why generally? What are you basing this on?Sleeping God is a role that used to pop up occasionally on Bay 12. I'm not sure how long it's been since we really had one. Here's a quote from webadict explaining:
It's a role that has influence over the game, whether knowingly or not.I think I stole the idea from a Haruhi themed game on mafiascum a few years back. Anyway, my point is that Jim's dreams may be shaping reality rather than just perceiving it.
For instance, they may change the type of game, voting system, night actions, etc.
There are a few games that contain this role.
Leafsnail: Do you love the musician for letting you dance?No - my character doesn't even seem to realize that there must be a musician playing the music. She loves the Prince due to the fact that she was able to dance with him.
Post by: Leafsnail on September 06, 2013, 01:56:18 pm
Post by: Jim Groovester on September 06, 2013, 04:19:40 pm
Jim: why did you ignore my questions?
No I don't know why I appeared as what I did. I was going to tell you, before I decided to switch gears with the mass flavor claim, that you probably know better than I did, and what do you know! It turns out that you did.
and then Jim appeared and said Prince-standing stuff, and then I woke up.
As what?
Actually, I think the inexplicable animation of Lenglon and Toaster may be something to do with you. Could you try asking Vector if you've ever had any dreams about plants becoming human or anything?
I asked, and just for good measure I asked about rival sisters competing for a prince, and about princesses turning into ducks, and cursed dancers.
I have dreamed of everything imaginable, so at some point I dreamed about these things or stuff very similar to them.
Could we talk about flowers for a moment, by the way? We were all wearing red roses at the start. My role PM mentions me wearing yellow roses later. Does anyone have any mentions of wearing lillies in theirs?
Except for me appearing as part human-part flower in the N2 flavor, there's no mention of flowers in my flavor at all.
The two pairs may have an NPC third member - for the swans it could be the Prince, and for the lovers it could be the Prince's older brother. That would make the scheme for those people:
The prince the Swan sisters fought over is not the Prince's elder brother, it was a prince from some other kingdom.
webadict I <-> Ottofar: Black and white swans. Rival sisters.
zombie urist -> Jim Groovester <- Solifuge
Griffionday (<?)-> Currently unknown duck
Toaster -> NQT <- Lenglon
Leafsnail -> Currently unknown musician <- webadict II
I appeared as TheWetSheep's mother but aged and as a winged ghost-prince to Tiruin. I don't think either of these jive well with a musician role.
The winged ghost-prince might make sense for whoever the duck is though.
Post by: Leafsnail on September 06, 2013, 04:46:22 pm
I asked, and just for good measure I asked about rival sisters competing for a prince, and about princesses turning into ducks, and cursed dancers.Interesting.
I have dreamed of everything imaginable, so at some point I dreamed about these things or stuff very similar to them.
The thing I find odd - you were intending to dream of a bell last night, right? I can't really see how that relates to the flavour I received.
The prince the Swan sisters fought over is not the Prince's elder brother, it was a prince from some other kingdom.Sure, my idea was that the current Prince is what links them. The elder brother was speculation for the Griffionday group (the woman may have been in love with his elder brother, or something).
Post by: zombie urist on September 06, 2013, 04:57:01 pm
If you're female, why did you have a female lover?
If you're male, why are you here as a princess?
Post by: Leafsnail on September 06, 2013, 05:02:57 pm
Come to think of it, in Japan roses and lillies do have homosexual connotations (for gays and lesbians respectively), but I think that's prooobably not what Vector meant with them.
Post by: Jim Groovester on September 06, 2013, 05:08:57 pm
The thing I find odd - you were intending to dream of a bell last night, right? I can't really see how that relates to the flavour I received.
I think the bell thing is on my end. I'm guessing the list of topics I have to choose from have different effects.
I dreamed about a bell and then I told everyone I was town. This makes sense to me; bells are great at announcing things loudly and publicly.
Anyone notice the change in thread title?
Toaster, Lenglon: Are you two really here for the safety of the Prince or are you here to advance the goals of your respective flower clans?
Post by: Vector on September 06, 2013, 06:22:13 pm
Come to think of it, in Japan roses and lillies do have homosexual connotations (for gays and lesbians respectively), but I think that's prooobably not what Vector meant with them.
Hohohohohoho
Post by: Tiruin on September 06, 2013, 06:38:28 pm
Toaster, Lenglon: I believe in full doubt that you two are flower-girls. It is truly unbelievable in itself--why are flowers going to marry a Prince while whoever transformed them...did so? I'm suspecting you're both in league with each other, for that matter despite whatever sort of strange concept happens, like the..strange clan claim with its very own 'special' formatting.
This to me speaks of a rather large loophole. You both have different roles which aren't the ones you claimed. I'm really doubtful--rather, I completely denounce that notion judging from what I've seen myself.
Why are you two hiding behind, and falseclaiming? If I had two votes, I'd lay them down right here.
The winged ghost-prince might make sense for whoever the duck is though.This is true, I have found that out--but sadly, it isn't fully true when you see the information behind it. I have only lied once, here.
No, I cannot claim my role--don't argue that 'Oh I'm scum hiding my role blah blah' but that I can't. I could make a really nice fakeclaim from it with no visible deviation, but I can't. I have told nothing but the truth ever since until now, other than what I can't. You have all debated on it, and by logical conclusion, you have already found it. I'll only give that which I'm not: I have no (or..as far as I know) skill with the instruments of wind, percussion, or string. And before anyone can prod me on that non-claim, I'll give a synonymous role which has no difference in context from my main one, including its ability(es).
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: "You know what I did last night" (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: "Ok, really. The LAST night, not the first night." (click to show/hide)
ZU
QES is quod erat sanctifactumMeaning?
You aren't even responding to my query, sir.
lenglon should have a qes day 1 pfpWhy should she?
Should we no lynch?Why in the world should we no lynch?!
[...]Please respond to my queries >_>I'm pretty sure I got all of them but I'm too busy to check. Sorry.
Why in the world are you too busy to check, and yet reply without even answering them? :I Look, I can understand you're busy, but leave a note lest I grab more of this suspicion and stuff it down your throat by the spoonful. Because you're seemingly ignoring me, for a follower of this 'goddess'. Pretty rude.
Please read, or are you being lazy, again? (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4574246#msg4574246)
The fact that a threat doesn't succeed in killing someone doesn't make the threat any less of a threat, does it? Also, the OP flavor didn't change. You may just be interpreting it differently.The Prince invited these killers here! There is no recourse to his motive, he wanted us killed for...some reason! His naivete is a threat to himself![/hahahno]
And, furthermore--not all threats are existential. The Prince is rather innocent, isn't he?
...Mod: Can we talk to the Prince, himself. Like, right now as it seems he's observing us?
"Horatio! Excuse my queries again, but I've to ask. Why was there a body found on the royal grounds, where nobody could alert us of? Where was the White Swan buried, and who undertook the deed of doing such? I mean, we've got guards here, yes? What were they doing? Are nightly shifts being enforced?
"Why did some girls resist the clothing changes when they entered? I'm sure you could've heard the complaints from the serving ladies and men.
"...Oh, and how was the first night for you?"
Shaping whatnow? How so? Dreams are different from reality.Why generally? What are you basing this on?Sleeping God is a role that used to pop up occasionally on Bay 12. I'm not sure how long it's been since we really had one. Here's a quote from webadict explaining:It's a role that has influence over the game, whether knowingly or not.I think I stole the idea from a Haruhi themed game on mafiascum a few years back. Anyway, my point is that Jim's dreams may be shaping reality rather than just perceiving it.
For instance, they may change the type of game, voting system, night actions, etc.
There are a few games that contain this role.
Bahaahahahaa.Come to think of it, in Japan roses and lillies do have homosexual connotations (for gays and lesbians respectively), but I think that's prooobably not what Vector meant with them.
Hohohohohoho
...Oh dear.
*Tiruin blushes.
"Leafsnail seems to be interested in flowers."
Post by: Tiruin on September 06, 2013, 06:42:16 pm
Post by: Tiruin on September 06, 2013, 06:49:41 pm
Anyone notice the change in thread title?And yes, isn't it nice, being renamed about you--or as far as you are divine?
Now something bugs me here Jim. Why is a Goddess-type interested in the Prince? Do you have any connections with others here?
Quote
On N1, I attempted to dream with Solifuge about the Writer's Curse. I suspected Solifuge and had no idea what my role would do and the Writer's Curse sounded like an ominous enough topic to dream about that if he was guilty I might get revealing information. Sadly, somebody woke me up and then led me around the castle. I fell asleep while I was walking around and dreamed about ducks and princes, which was Griffionday's thingy. I woke up with aching feet and a split toenail.Expound on the dream. Why did you suspect Solifuge?
Who woke you up? Where did you fall asleep?
Quote
I alerted everybody to the threats the Prince faced because I discovered it while I was dreaming and I talk in my sleep.If this were true, in the generality it gives, then we would all know of those threats, as in literally.
What threats did the Prince face? What did you say?
Also missed this, but it lacked a stamp/note to you so that's waived.
Here. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4577800#msg4577800)QuoteAs for why now, why not now? I suppose a potent argument could be made for doing it the night before lylo, but because of cagey mod who knows when that's going to end up being....So you blame the mod?
..Why do you want the Prince again? Could you ponder on why two people are sent to aid you--and did you meet them before?
Post by: webadict on September 06, 2013, 07:36:55 pm
The wind between my toes? I'm not sure, all it said was that I hear someone say it, and it was carried by the wind, and I was appreciating the wind between my toes.and then Jim appeared and said Prince-standing stuff, and then I woke up.
As what?
Post by: Jim Groovester on September 06, 2013, 07:44:37 pm
The winged ghost-prince might make sense for whoever the duck is though.This is true, I have found that out--but sadly, it isn't fully true when you see the information behind it. I have only lied once, here.
So you're not a duck but you're the person Griffionday was looking for.
I had assumed an angel, before the Prince spoke. He spoke only one word, of that I leave Jim to say which it was unless he didn't get the note.
No, I didn't. I don't know what happened in anybody's flavor besides my own.
Now something bugs me here Jim. Why is a Goddess-type interested in the Prince?
Because he's dreamy. More specifically, he has fanciful transports of the imagination just like me.
Do you have any connections with others here?
Not that I'm aware of.
Besides the servants of the Goddess, which is something I was also not aware of until recently.
Expound on the dream.
There was no dream.
Why did you suspect Solifuge?
Because he had just tried to tie the vote and had a lurky D1.
Who woke you up?
I don't know.
Where did you fall asleep?
Well, first I was in my bed. Then I was woken up and led around the castle. I decided that while that was happening was a good time to fall asleep and dream. This is a fairly regular occurrence.
If this were true, in the generality it gives, then we would all know of those threats, as in literally.
What threats did the Prince face? What did you say?
I don't know.
...So you blame the mod?
I don't know what you're asking.
..Why do you want the Prince again?
Because he's dreamy. More specifically, he has fanciful transports of the imagination just like me.
Could you ponder on why two people are sent to aid you--and did you meet them before?
I had no idea I was the Goddess until I put two and two together, oh, just last night.
I have no idea why there's a religion based on me and I had no idea there were people from this religion here to protect me. I certainly didn't meet them ahead of time.
Post by: Vector on September 06, 2013, 07:55:10 pm
...Mod: Can we talk to the Prince, himself. Like, right now as it seems he's observing us?
Yup.
"Horatio! Excuse my queries again, but I've to ask. Why was there a body found on the royal grounds, where nobody could alert us of? Where was the White Swan buried, and who undertook the deed of doing such? I mean, we've got guards here, yes? What were they doing? Are nightly shifts being enforced?
"Why did some girls resist the clothing changes when they entered? I'm sure you could've heard the complaints from the serving ladies and men.
"...Oh, and how was the first night for you?"
Horatio seems somewhat taken aback by the tenor of your questions.
"A body was found on the grounds because someone died there," he explains. "The White Swan was buried beneath the rose bushes--I buried her there--because I killed her. There are not so many guards posted here since the old king died.
". . . The Prince became somewhat lax in his valuation of his life and property, and his lands receded.
"Most of his men protect the Northern border of his kingdom, where there are constant skirmishes. The South is quiet, and we are strong on the sea. He does not fear his own people, and would gladly give his life for them. However, I have ordered that guards be posted on the roads to the castle and at his bedchamber. They patrol night and day, but they are simple men. . . skilled in protection, unacquainted with mystery.
"As for the girls, many of them wanted to protect their modesty. They came from different parts, where our ways of dress would be seen as improper, or contradicted religious vows, or--simply from preference, it seemed.
"Now--two nights ago, I--"
He pales suddenly.
"Excuse me, miss," he says, and hurries away.
Unsatisfied with your answers, you rush off to find the Prince. He is sitting in a heavy wooden chair not far from the proceedings, poring over a yellowed journal, which he snaps shut upon seeing you--and reflexively smiles.
"Prince! Didn't one of us fall asleep here, three days ago? I thought she said something."
"Oh--yes, someone did," says the Prince. "An amusing tale. We were taking our midday meal when her eyes fluttered shut and she dropped, face-first, into the stew. We rushed to help her, but she did not awaken--she was clearly asleep, not merely unconscious. And then, as she was carried from the hall to be put to bed, she mumbled:
'A-aroma liquor.'
"She had the adorable habit of talking in her sleep, it seemed. You cannot help remembering such things. Then, louder, beginning to tremble in her sleep, she said:
"'Death walks here.'
"And from then on she said nothing more. The poor girl must have come from a plague-struck village or similar, I thought, but--some of the other girls seemed agitated, one began to loudly pray, and soon after I heard rumors of a danger to my person.
"I ignored them, of course," he says, smiling faintly. "A ruler who values his life more than the trust and well-being of his subjects cannot be king."
"But you can't just throw it away!" you say.
"It belongs to me," he says, "and it is freely given."
Post by: Tiruin on September 06, 2013, 08:02:50 pm
...The winged ghost-prince might make sense for whoever the duck is though.This is true, I have found that out--but sadly, it isn't fully true when you see the information behind it. I have only lied once, here.
So you're not a duck but you're the person Griffionday was looking for.
I'll just say a general 'yes'. Because you don't seem to respect subtlety.
Tiruin pouts.
Quote
Well, first I was in my bed. Then I was woken up and led around the castle. I decided that while that was happening was a good time to fall asleep and dream. This is a fairly regular occurrence....So you fell asleep outside of your bed. Like, while being led around the castle?
Are you being restricted from telling us based on dream-goddess law? What is your intent with the prince?If this were true, in the generality it gives, then we would all know of those threats, as in literally.
What threats did the Prince face? What did you say?
I don't know.
Please answer those two questions. Also, it was based on:
What you said here, (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4578295#msg4578295) in general.
...Do you know what split your toenail and why your feet ached? Surely at least that, you would've guessed at.
I have no idea why there's a religion based on me and I had no idea there were people from this religion here to protect me. I certainly didn't meet them ahead of time.So you've no known connection with those people, and are basing it only that you are currently known as a dream goddess?
..Sleeping Beauty's story says she was cursed by a witch to [prick something] by [birthday] or so the story goes and that she'll only awaken when a prince of [true good] comes and...saves her. The story is blurry because I'm unsure on what the context is.
...Or why you turned into a telepath. That's pretty cool, if I've to say so. But I'll ask one more thing on that note.
Why did you decide to claim? Were there any advantages or disadvantages you saw on that point?
PPE: Vector.
...
...
Ok I'll just post this and read that post.
Post by: Toaster on September 06, 2013, 08:14:04 pm
Toaster, Lenglon: Are you two really here for the safety of the Prince or are you here to advance the goals of your respective flower clans?
I am indeed here for the prince. I just like flowers getting planted, and fertilized. And judging by my flavor, eggs getting fertilized too.
Tiruin:
Toaster, Lenglon: I believe in full doubt that you two are flower-girls. It is truly unbelievable in itself--why are flowers going to marry a Prince while whoever transformed them...did so? I'm suspecting you're both in league with each other, for that matter despite whatever sort of strange concept happens, like the..strange clan claim with its very own 'special' formatting.
This to me speaks of a rather large loophole. You both have different roles which aren't the ones you claimed. I'm really doubtful--rather, I completely denounce that notion judging from what I've seen myself.
Why are you two hiding behind, and falseclaiming? If I had two votes, I'd lay them down right here.
Can't help you there. Everything I said is 100% truth.
Post by: Leafsnail on September 06, 2013, 08:24:54 pm
Female, I was experimenting (didn't go too well since I ended up cheating with a guy).Actually no, I was a lesbian at that point, I experimented by cheating with a guy. Lillies. Maybe the Prince is gay.
Shaping whatnow? How so? Dreams are different from reality.The idea is that someone is a god without really realizing it. Thus they unintentionally cause things to happen by dreaming or otherwise thinking.
I have no idea why there's a religion based on me and I had no idea there were people from this religion here to protect me. I certainly didn't meet them ahead of time.It's because you're a Sleeping God. Presumably the religion is there to stop you from doing anything too world-destroying.
It's also in keeping with the other trios we know of. NQT didn't have any idea about the flower girls, and there's absolutely nothing to suggest the musician knows anything about me or webadict.
Post by: Tiruin on September 06, 2013, 08:28:40 pm
Tiruin glanced down at her feet and wondered. The saying. It had been repeated twice as far as her memory went in the castle.
Death walks here.
Intoned once by a dying woman, allegedly connected to a Goddess. A woman with a stiletto, who had killed herself. Another spoke at that time, and talked about windows and doors, and the spirit. Why would there be notes on a spirit, if it was not that crucial of mention?
Were dreams affected by spirits? Impossible, for the Prince cannot lie. He just said so. This person is innocent. A warning.
...
"Sir Prince, may I ask what Horatio meant--and by this I mean no disrespect for I understand the worry he's under--by 'I killed her', pertaining to the death of the White Swan? What had happened to her?"
Mod: I ask the Prince a question.
Toaster
Why does everyone have to rip up my literary curiosity with this.
Can't help you there. Everything I said is 100% truth.
It's like mazes and labyrinths. Only that everyone else is the maze. Bluh bluh bluh blargh.
..And Jim said nothing, or felt anything about flowers. here. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4579843;topicseen#msg4579843) I'm worried.
If that contends with your claim, why aren't you voting, or at least asking Jim questions on that note?
You (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4577508;topicseen#msg4577508) and her and..in my memory (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4486182;topicseen#msg4486182) sees you asking stuff pertaining to flowers. Ok, maybe not Lenglon, because she said multi-torso thingy, (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4577963#msg4577963) which first came off to me as something pertaining to the Indian gods--multiple appendages. But this has multiple torsos. So color me argh.
..What do you think about Lenglon, and the same question goes to her.
PPE LEafsnail
..Ok I'm blushing now.
I still can't get how this is possible. I mean, that would relate to the subconscious level, and that does coincide with what Jim's sporadicalities are doing, but..nothing seems to be changed.Shaping whatnow? How so? Dreams are different from reality.The idea is that someone is a god without really realizing it. Thus they unintentionally cause things to happen by dreaming or otherwise thinking.
Or that we're all funny pawns in a game, that would be weirder.
Mod: I also ask the Prince this notion!
"And forgive my pressing, dear Prince. But my curiosity has to be given word in this matter. Are there any significant things that you did during the night of the death of the White Swan?" Tiruin asked, wondering about that book he was reading..must either be about Euclid judging by what she heard, but still.. "Oh, and that book you were just reading. Apologies for my pondering."
Post by: Tiruin on September 06, 2013, 08:31:34 pm
Post by: Vector on September 06, 2013, 08:38:39 pm
(Look at me, bein' all responsible 'n' shit)
TheWetSheep has been prodded, because he pretty much up and disappeared. Hopefully he'll be back soon.
Post by: Tiruin on September 06, 2013, 08:42:04 pm
Hey, I'll come back and answer some more questions soon but I need to do some chores.I've got exams and my mind is really a chaotic area of medical parts, parasitic knowledge and how to treat them, and then this.
(Look at me, bein' all responsible 'n' shit)
TheWetSheep has been prodded, because he pretty much up and disappeared. Hopefully he'll be back soon.
It's so complicated that I'm all jumpy right now. So bleh. Take yer time, we've got till Monday.
Edit: Oh Vector. I'm now mistaking later posts to not be you. Blargh need rest.
Post by: Jim Groovester on September 06, 2013, 08:42:44 pm
...So you fell asleep outside of your bed. Like, while being led around the castle?
Yes.
Are you being restricted from telling us based on dream-goddess law?
No, I just don't know.
Also, the incident was totally just described by Vector in flavor, so look there and you'll see I don't know shit.
What is your intent with the prince?
Protect him from all threats.
...Do you know what split your toenail and why your feet ached? Surely at least that, you would've guessed at.
It's probably because I was walking around while I was sleeping, and therefore wasn't really looking where I was going.
So you've no known connection with those people, and are basing it only that you are currently known as a dream goddess?
Yes. All the pieces seem to add up to me = Goddess.
It gets a lot easier to figure out when your nightly role PM is titled Dreaming Goddess.
Why did you decide to claim? Were there any advantages or disadvantages you saw on that point?
Maybe because:
If you want to play it elegantly, I suggest thinking out of the box a little and that the forces of Good do their damndest to kill the information gap.
..And Jim said nothing, or felt anything about flowers. here. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4579843;topicseen#msg4579843) I'm worried.
Their flavor about how I appeared to them checks out. (In fact, everybody's flavor checks out.) A woman sprouting heads and stuff and a woman with thirteen torsos are both on my list.
So, if you've got an explanation for why they dreamt about that and they're not flowers, let's hear it.
...Jim: "Are you fancy of any perfumes or odorous objects? Herbs or any good fragrances? Any allergies or any knowledge of getting affected by such substances?"
No, no, also no.
Are you all out of questions yet?
It's because you're a Sleeping God. Presumably the religion is there to stop you from doing anything too world-destroying.
It's also in keeping with the other trios we know of. NQT didn't have any idea about the flower girls, and there's absolutely nothing to suggest the musician knows anything about me or webadict.
Maybe. Solifuge's role PM is the most revealing about this, and it describes the Goddess as the all-seeing wonder, not the all-seeing wonder who also happens to affect reality.
It's possible but I think the flavor points more towards my domain being dreams rather than potentially all things.
Post by: Leafsnail on September 06, 2013, 08:42:44 pm
I still can't get how this is possible. I mean, that would relate to the subconscious level, and that does coincide with what Jim's sporadicalities are doing, but..nothing seems to be changed.I take your point, I've been looking for something that Jim's definitely changed with his dreams and drawing a blank. Nevertheless, I think this whole religion/goddess thing implies that Jim must be able to warp reality somehow.
Or that we're all funny pawns in a game, that would be weirder.
Post by: Tiruin on September 06, 2013, 08:48:24 pm
[So let me say what's going on in my mind because I'm practically giddy and and argh]ADDENDUM (just for style points I formatted this): "And..and one last question for now, if-if that's ok. Do you know who Sigfred is?" Tiruin said at the Prince. "I heard that name before. Or Sigred. Things like that along that matter anyway..."
"Sir Prince, may I ask what Horatio meant--and by this I mean no disrespect for I understand the worry he's under--by 'I killed her', pertaining to the death of the White Swan? What had happened to her?"
Mod: I ask the Prince a question.
[...]
Mod: I also ask the Prince this notion!
"And forgive my pressing, dear Prince. But my curiosity has to be given word in this matter. Are there any significant things that you did during the night of the death of the White Swan?" Tiruin asked, wondering about that book he was reading..must either be about Euclid judging by what she heard, but still.. "Oh, and that book you were just reading. Apologies for my pondering."
Jim
Quote
The only contact I got from you was in that dream. That's all.
Also, the incident was totally just described by Vector in flavor, so look there and you'll see I don't know shit.
"Ooooohhh~ someone swore..." (Teehee. :P)
Quote
Are you all out of questions yet?..For me? Yes, because I'm going to that one Histology class later. But there's something my intuition is punching me on, and there's something totally wrong that we're all missing, judging by recent notes.
Post by: Toaster on September 06, 2013, 08:54:09 pm
Post by: Tiruin on September 06, 2013, 08:55:47 pm
Also, note Vector flavor-confirmed that Wuba, I was buried in the rose garden.Did you miss the comma there? Or..worded it wrong. Whatnow?
Post by: webadict on September 06, 2013, 09:19:58 pm
...I either broke my semantics reading that, or you lack punctuation. Where did that occur?Wuba 1.0Also, note Vector flavor-confirmed that Wuba, I was buried in the rose garden.Did you miss the comma there? Or..worded it wrong. Whatnow?
Post by: Tiruin on September 06, 2013, 09:28:23 pm
...
Oh bloody piece of cake.
Tiruin addresses the Prince: "Sir Prince, may I..also ask one thing. Please don't tire of this.
"Do you remember what you did on the day we found Ms. Lovelace? Before the Black Swan was found over the White Swan's grave? Do you remember, and recall in exact what you did that day?"
Post by: Tiruin on September 06, 2013, 09:31:54 pm
Tiruin coughs. "-and why Horatio seemed upset earlier-like he was mad at you (or someone), as far as we gathered, at that time?"
Post by: zombie urist on September 06, 2013, 09:47:19 pm
QES roughly means "which needed to be blessed" I think, even though sanctifactum isn't a real latin word (AFAIK)
ZUQES is quod erat sanctifactumMeaning?
You aren't even responding to my query, sir.lenglon should have a qes day 1 pfpWhy should she?Should we no lynch?Why in the world should we no lynch?!
[...]Please respond to my queries >_>I'm pretty sure I got all of them but I'm too busy to check. Sorry.
Why in the world are you too busy to check, and yet reply without even answering them? :I Look, I can understand you're busy, but leave a note lest I grab more of this suspicion and stuff it down your throat by the spoonful. Because you're seemingly ignoring me, for a follower of this 'goddess'. Pretty rude.
Please read, or are you being lazy, again? (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4574246#msg4574246)
I protected Lenglon N1 and Jin N2 and Jim got a notification, so I assumed Lenglon would get one also.
Dunno I'm just throwing that out as an option.
I'm pretty sure I answered every question in that post.
Can we lynch Horatio? He's a butler right? Aren't they traditionally bad guys? Burying dudes in a rose garden is pretty sinister.
"Prince! Didn't one of us fall asleep here, three days ago? I thought she said something."Who is this? Can't be Tiruin. Maybe TWS?
"Oh--yes, someone did," says the Prince. "An amusing tale. We were taking our midday meal when her eyes fluttered shut and she dropped, face-first, into the stew. We rushed to help her, but she did not awaken--she was clearly asleep, not merely unconscious. And then, as she was carried from the hall to be put to bed, she mumbled:
'A-aroma liquor.'
"She had the adorable habit of talking in her sleep, it seemed. You cannot help remembering such things. Then, louder, beginning to tremble in her sleep, she said:
"'Death walks here.'
"And from then on she said nothing more. The poor girl must have come from a plague-struck village or similar...
Post by: Tiruin on September 06, 2013, 09:54:00 pm
Can we lynch Horatio? He's a butler right? Aren't they traditionally bad guys? Burying dudes in a rose garden is pretty sinister.I'd oppose this, because he's a good guy to me, butthere's something..wrong. Ask the Prince for more info. I'm waiting on it.
Also, three questions. What happened when you doctor'd them-why did you doctor Jim/Lenglon? And why are you ignoring me poking at you ignoring Leafsnail's vote on you?
Post by: Jim Groovester on September 06, 2013, 10:11:48 pm
I protected Lenglon N1 and Jin N2 and Jim got a notification, so I assumed Lenglon would get one also.
I did not get notification of any action on N2. I only received notification of an action on N1, but not the type of action, and only because it interrupted by own.
The poor girl must have come from a plague-struck village or similar...Who is this? Can't be Tiruin. Maybe TWS?
The incident described is how I alerted everybody to the threats to the Prince, as indicated to me in my role PM. I'm not of noble birth, so the Prince's comment here isn't so unusual.
Pretty sure that's what it is, anyway.
Post by: Tiruin on September 06, 2013, 10:22:15 pm
> Why can't it be me."Prince! Didn't one of us fall asleep here, three days ago? I thought she said something."Who is this? Can't be Tiruin. Maybe TWS?
"Oh--yes, someone did," says the Prince. "An amusing tale. We were taking our midday meal when her eyes fluttered shut and she dropped, face-first, into the stew. We rushed to help her, but she did not awaken--she was clearly asleep, not merely unconscious. And then, as she was carried from the hall to be put to bed, she mumbled:
'A-aroma liquor.'
"She had the adorable habit of talking in her sleep, it seemed. You cannot help remembering such things. Then, louder, beginning to tremble in her sleep, she said:
"'Death walks here.'
"And from then on she said nothing more. The poor girl must have come from a plague-struck village or similar...
> Why do you want to lynch Horatio..and of your comments on the lynch, why that mention of a No Lynch (and why does it seem that you're going along with the flow rather than give your take on the matter)?
Jim
So..he's talking about you? Specifically you?I protected Lenglon N1 and Jin N2 and Jim got a notification, so I assumed Lenglon would get one also.
I did not get notification of any action on N2. I only received notification of an action on N1, but not the type of action, and only because it interrupted by own.The poor girl must have come from a plague-struck village or similar...Who is this? Can't be Tiruin. Maybe TWS?
The incident described is how I alerted everybody to the threats to the Prince, as indicated to me in my role PM. I'm not of noble birth, so the Prince's comment here isn't so unusual.
Pretty sure that's what it is, anyway.
Post by: Jim Groovester on September 06, 2013, 10:30:59 pm
Also, I just confirmed it with Vector.
Post by: Vector on September 07, 2013, 12:00:04 am
"Sir Prince, may I ask what Horatio meant--and by this I mean no disrespect for I understand the worry he's under--by 'I killed her', pertaining to the death of the White Swan? What had happened to her?"
[. . .]
"And forgive my pressing, dear Prince. But my curiosity has to be given word in this matter. Are there any significant things that you did during the night of the death of the White Swan?" Tiruin asked, wondering about that book he was reading..must either be about Euclid judging by what she heard, but still.. "Oh, and that book you were just reading. Apologies for my pondering."
ADDENDUM (just for style points I formatted this): "And..and one last question for now, if-if that's ok. Do you know who Sigfred is?" Tiruin said at the Prince. "I heard that name before. Or Sigred. Things like that along that matter anyway..."
"Do you remember what you did on the day we found Ms. Lovelace? Before the Black Swan was found over the White Swan's grave? Do you remember, and recall in exact what you did that day?"
Tiruin coughs. "-and why Horatio seemed upset earlier-like he was mad at you (or someone), as far as we gathered, at that time?"
The Prince sits back in his chair and just sort of looks at you for a while.
"I am Sigfred, prince of this domain," he says. "This is my elder brother's diary. He died in a cathedral far from here, having abandoned his land. Buried alive. This I am told by troubadours. My younger brother left to find his corpse and came home to die. They were troubled men.
"On the first night one of the girls said she wanted to eat a white swan. It seemed strange but I remembered that many of the girls had not had such treats thanks to their common upbringing, and so I told Horatio to go slaughter one. He did. Then he sent her to the chefs, who prepared and dressed the body. They brought it out; he tasted it; and then the illusion disappeared, and we rediscovered one of the girls. You must remember that.
"Afterwards he buried her beneath the rose bushes at the castle walls, between bouts of violent illness. He would not permit me to order anyone else to do it. Neither he nor I slept that night; he for sickness, and I for caring for him. When at last he could sleep it was dawn, and so I left him in my bed and went to awaken the girls myself.
"That was when I found my younger brother. You saw his body. A kind of confusion came over me. I didn't--
"How ought we respond to the death of a companion? If our thoughts blur when faced by moral corruption, is it morally wrong? We had to find his killer, of course. I had no time to mourn him. Why was he here, unannounced, wearing women's clothes. . . and why did I not recognize him? These questions swam and occupied my mind. But I could not be overcome by guilt and sorrow when the manlier thought would be of vengeance. Indeed. What King would cry when approached with such a situation, when he could instead take up a blade?
"And so what I remember of that day is only a howl of voices shouting for Solifuge's neck. I remember searching the castle from room to room with the girls following as we looked for him. It took hours--we searched the grounds, alerted the guards, combed every hiding place, swept the catacombs--as you remember, because you were with me the entire day--until finally at noon we found the bodies. No one would touch them due to the arcane markings, the trappings of pagan worship, so when he woke Horatio buried three more corpses. Brave, clear-sighted soul!
"He was cross that I did not wake him because he was concerned for my welfare, and because he had known my younger brother, and would have helped us search. We asked the cooks who had not fled to prepare a light meal, tried to eat, and spent the evening comforting each other.
"That night we both had strange, troubled dreams. And that, I think, is all you had wanted to know?"
Post by: Tiruin on September 07, 2013, 05:06:28 am
"Could I ask what happened in your dream? Erm, Horatio first--but only when he's ok, thanks." 'OK, don't bother the Prince on the diary even if its really important..noooooo. That would be so rude.' "But I've been pondering.
"Did you sense anything out of...well, weird things before you invited us all? My musings bring it to think upon witchcraft-like we're all under an illusion spell or whatnot." 'Or you're just naive like Horatio said..but that would also be rude and very mean. I'll just say you're cute. Yeah. "Pretty cute too.. I mean..I'm pretty sure we're that recognizable.
"Err, anyway. No questions. That last one was more of a hypothetical unless someone else has something to say."
Yeah I'm unsure. Anyone got notes on that or want to forward that thought? I'm really unsure if it is possible to annoy the Prince and am unsure if I did annoy him.
...
Bah.
"But if in case you aren't offended, could we know what happened?"
And so Tiruin asks again and everyone else seems so quiet and she's frowning on the inside at the quiet of everyone else and. :(
Seriously guys? Nobody talking?
Post by: webadict on September 07, 2013, 10:31:44 am
Since we're princesses, do you think we were supposed to lynch? Look at how the Prince adds ONLY after we lynched someone that we resorted to killing. His story changes along with some of our choices, so if he hasn't said it yet, it's yet to be proven true or false.
EDIT: Wow, love when the forums don't send things in.
Post by: TheWetSheep on September 07, 2013, 11:05:15 am
Post by: TheWetSheep on September 07, 2013, 12:07:51 pm
I am the musician. I play a balalaika. I met the prince while I was playing for a troupe of dancers. He seemed to take some special interest in me, even though he seemed distant and preoccupied when talking to me. A few days later he asked to play for him privately. A few days after that was when he started his search for a wife.
I have three one-shot actions, which take the form of songs I can play.
I can cause no NK's to go through
I can cause no protects and roleblocks to go through, and
I can cause all inspections to go through.
N1 I did nothing. My flavour involved me finding the Prince as he was going to attend to the sick Horatio.
N2 I used the 3rd action. I fell asleep, and drifted off all the way back home. I saw my mother who brought me food. She was extremely old, and I started to wonder if she was my mother at all. Then she looked at me and said in perfect Danish that she was Jim and loyal to the prince.
Not me, as far as I know."Prince! Didn't one of us fall asleep here, three days ago? I thought she said something."Who is this? Can't be Tiruin. Maybe TWS?
"Oh--yes, someone did," says the Prince. "An amusing tale. We were taking our midday meal when her eyes fluttered shut and she dropped, face-first, into the stew. We rushed to help her, but she did not awaken--she was clearly asleep, not merely unconscious. And then, as she was carried from the hall to be put to bed, she mumbled:
'A-aroma liquor.'
"She had the adorable habit of talking in her sleep, it seemed. You cannot help remembering such things. Then, louder, beginning to tremble in her sleep, she said:
"'Death walks here.'
"And from then on she said nothing more. The poor girl must have come from a plague-struck village or similar...
Something strikes me as interesting, ZU. Why would two mathematicians be following a goddess?
Now time to do a more exhaustive reread.
Post by: Vector on September 07, 2013, 12:41:52 pm
"Yes," says the Prince. "I was weak."
"Now, now," Vektor chides him. "If my age has taught me one thing, it's that you can't say that sort of thing. You weren't weak. You were just wrong."
The Prince sits sullenly for a moment. Vektor is half worried that he will stand and rattle his sabre again, but instead the Prince just looks tired. Some ash falls out of his hair.
"Strange things had happened before, you know," he says. "Shortly after Uncle Claudius murdered our father, Horatio and my elder brother saw his ghost in the garden. And it is said that in his madness, Brother spoke with the dead. . . his friends, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern, were known to play at all sorts of strange games with a single gold coin they passed between them.
"And so. . . if the Gods had decided to blight my kingdom yet again, I was set upon letting them have it. Almost."
"Oh?"
"Horatio and I had strange dreams that night. I appeared to him and said something about being favored by a Goddess, and not to worry. I do not know the circumstances. . . he colored, and would not speak of them. And I dreamed of my elder brother, who squinted at me and said:
"'Little brother, stop your phony ways and
Go and be a fucking man already!
Damsels must be saved; do not stay your hand
You can not just wait 'til you feel steady!"
". . . He had a mouth on him, I see."
"Yes, well, he was always a bit of a black sheep. Never stopped speaking in strangely accentuated verse, either. I couldn't figure out if he was mad, melancholy, or manipulative."
"So you stood up and saved the day?"
". . . No," says the Prince. "I read my brother's diary, because I missed him."
(Keep asking strange questions and you'll get stranger answers)
(. . . HAMLET CAULFIELD RIDES AGAIN)
VOTE COUNT
Webadict
Leafsnail - zombieurist
Tiruin
Lenglon
TheWetSheep
zombieurist - Leafsnail
Jim Groovestar
Toaster
Not voting: Webadict, Tiruin, TheWetSheep, Toaster, Lenglon, Jim Groovester
The day is scheduled to end on Monday, 12:00 noon (-8GMT). For an extension to Wednesday, 12:00 noon (-8 GMT), four votes are necessary.
Post by: TheWetSheep on September 07, 2013, 02:18:42 pm
I am Sleeping Beauty. While dreaming I can pretty much do anything imaginable and have. I was sent here by my parents because they wanted to see if all my wild dreams could be cured by the Prince's touch (hubba hubba), but instead I was put into the marriage lottery. I control where I go and what I dream and always have and I'm not willing to give that up.
Why do you want to be the Prince's wife if it might make you lose your dreaming powers?
Checking the description of the Goddess in Solifuge's role PM, I believe the Goddess is me.But you were only the goddess after Ottofar died? That's a bit odd. Shouldn't there have been a goddess D1 too, if Soli and ZU's roles were based on her?
So far, I think the most suspicious people, based on roleclaims, are Lenglon and Toaster. You both have clans, but... nobody else is in them?
Actually, scratch that. Webadict:
How does this reveal your role? Why was it so important not to divulge this in the first place?The wind between my toes? I'm not sure, all it said was that I hear someone say it, and it was carried by the wind, and I was appreciating the wind between my toes.and then Jim appeared and said Prince-standing stuff, and then I woke up.
As what?
Interesting that although we choose who to lynch, we just find the bodies.
Post by: Lenglon on September 07, 2013, 03:18:19 pm
"I... I can't speak for Toaster, but I know that I've been unable to make even the slightest contact with the rest of my clan. and I've tried. I'm... kinda all alone here."
I'm here for the Prince's sake. I have no communication methods with the rest of my clan.
Post by: webadict on September 07, 2013, 03:24:59 pm
First of all, wtf is this clan thing?I am Sleeping Beauty. While dreaming I can pretty much do anything imaginable and have. I was sent here by my parents because they wanted to see if all my wild dreams could be cured by the Prince's touch (hubba hubba), but instead I was put into the marriage lottery. I control where I go and what I dream and always have and I'm not willing to give that up.
Why do you want to be the Prince's wife if it might make you lose your dreaming powers?Checking the description of the Goddess in Solifuge's role PM, I believe the Goddess is me.But you were only the goddess after Ottofar died? That's a bit odd. Shouldn't there have been a goddess D1 too, if Soli and ZU's roles were based on her?
So far, I think the most suspicious people, based on roleclaims, are Lenglon and Toaster. You both have clans, but... nobody else is in them?
Actually, scratch that. Webadict:How does this reveal your role? Why was it so important not to divulge this in the first place?The wind between my toes? I'm not sure, all it said was that I hear someone say it, and it was carried by the wind, and I was appreciating the wind between my toes.and then Jim appeared and said Prince-standing stuff, and then I woke up.
As what?
Interesting that although we choose who to lynch, we just find the bodies.
Secondly, uh, what? I've minimalised as much of my flavor as possible in order to avoid revealing my role. In fact, anyone clever should be able to figure out what my role is from my flavor claim.
Thirdly, Jim became a Sleeping Goddess when Solifuge died as well. Wouldn't it make more sense for roles to be modified when one of the set is modified, as opposed to a seemingly random role?
Post by: Tiruin on September 07, 2013, 07:01:07 pm
Questions~
[...]Ok, 3 things.
I have three one-shot actions, which take the form of songs I can play.
[...]
I can cause all inspections to go through.
[...]
N2 I used the 3rd action. I fell asleep, and drifted off all the way back home. I saw my mother who brought me food. She was extremely old, and I started to wonder if she was my mother at all. Then she looked at me and said in perfect Danish that she was Jim and loyal to the prince.
[...]
Something strikes me as interesting, ZU. Why would two mathematicians be following a goddess?
Now time to do a more exhaustive reread.
1. Why would something hinder inspections? That's pretty much a very subjective one-shot there. Unless it's connected (like, town vs scum numbers. I'm pretty sure there's a third-party; or if Jim is, then there is another one other than he.)
2. ...Danish? Look, I know that Vector is a polyglot (Yes she's awesome :I) but..you're also Danish? And why Danish?
3. Solifuge was a mathematician?
ZU:
Tiruin is sad.
"Your words speak of brevity. Talk more. Who are you. What did you do. What had happened on the days wherein your protected the people. Did you answer why you did so?"
> Search the word 'clan' in the searchengine. Lenglon and Toaster claimed...flower clans. Which I thoroughly suspect. Well, thoroughly suspect that they're in league together.-snip snoop-First of all, wtf is this clan thing?
Secondly, uh, what? I've minimalised as much of my flavor as possible in order to avoid revealing my role. In fact, anyone clever should be able to figure out what my role is from my flavor claim.
Thirdly, Jim became a Sleeping Goddess when Solifuge died as well. Wouldn't it make more sense for roles to be modified when one of the set is modified, as opposed to a seemingly random role?
> Why should you not claim it?
> ...My role has never been touched. Why did Jim become a Goddess, exactly? What's your thoughts on it? Same goes to Leafsnail, Toaster, Lenglon and TWS...And ZU.
Interesting that although we choose who to lynch, we just find the bodies.We can put Ottofar's death as a red herring as it was by divine intervention that he died (unless..a modkill = that O_o) ANYWAY, bits of organ and flesh were found on the decedent's body, which was atop the White Swan's grave.
...My imagination shudders at what that was.
I'd love to ask Horatio or the Prince if there was any sign of desecration at the grave, but I'm busy D:
N1 I did nothing. My flavour involved me finding the Prince as he was going to attend to the sick Horatio.Interesting, dat one.
Expound on what happened, and what was the flavor? (Paraphrase it.)
Post by: Tiruin on September 07, 2013, 07:11:22 pm
Why.
Post by: Tiruin on September 07, 2013, 07:34:29 pm
PFP - Love Vector so much.Also why use that skill instead of the others?
Questions~[...]Ok, 3 things.
I have three one-shot actions, which take the form of songs I can play.
[...]
I can cause all inspections to go through.
[...]
N2 I used the 3rd action. I fell asleep, and drifted off all the way back home. I saw my mother who brought me food. She was extremely old, and I started to wonder if she was my mother at all. Then she looked at me and said in perfect Danish that she was Jim and loyal to the prince.
[...]
Something strikes me as interesting, ZU. Why would two mathematicians be following a goddess?
Now time to do a more exhaustive reread.
1. Why would something hinder inspections? That's pretty much a very subjective one-shot there. Unless it's connected (like, town vs scum numbers. I'm pretty sure there's a third-party; or if Jim is, then there is another one other than he.)
[...]
Post by: webadict on September 07, 2013, 07:36:34 pm
> Why should you not claim it?That's not the question I have to answer. The point is you have to convince me there's sufficient reason to claim anything. I gave flavor because there were good reasons brought forth. I do not see the same for claiming roles.
Post by: Tiruin on September 07, 2013, 07:41:29 pm
Good guys must work together and share information. While I'd agree that it'd make you a bit more obvious to scum, it would also serve as a cover up that you don't want it being told.
..Which was my impression when you were talking to Jim back then about that dream. That was flavor. And unless it wasn't, then it's game-related.
And thematically, it is the question you have to answer. Which...you did.
Quote
I gave flavor because there were good reasons brought forth. I do not see the same for claiming roles.However it is preceded by a very conflicting detail.
Quote
The point is you have to convince me there's sufficient reason to claim anything.Why shouldn't you?
Post by: Leafsnail on September 07, 2013, 07:53:43 pm
> ...My role has never been touched. Why did Jim become a Goddess, exactly? What's your thoughts on it? Same goes to Leafsnail, Toaster, Lenglon and TWS...And ZU.I'm pretty sure Jim was always a Goddess. It's just her secret team of
@TheWetSheep: Why didn't you use a power night one? Specifically, the power to block nightkills.
I'd be fairly happy with lynching ZU today, still, if we are unable to fully solve the puzzle. Thematically it would make sense for the Goddess to have one evil and one good disciple.
Post by: TheWetSheep on September 07, 2013, 08:20:50 pm
Secondly, uh, what? I've minimalised as much of my flavor as possible in order to avoid revealing my role. In fact, anyone clever should be able to figure out what my role is from my flavor claim.Why are you so worried about your role being revealed?
Quote
Thirdly, Jim became a Sleeping Goddess when Solifuge died as well. Wouldn't it make more sense for roles to be modified when one of the set is modified, as opposed to a seemingly random role?I guess, but that wasn't really my point. It doesn't make sense for them to have had to follow a goddess at a point when there wasn't one.
Tiruin:
1. Why would something hinder inspections? That's pretty much a very subjective one-shot there. Unless it's connected (like, town vs scum numbers. I'm pretty sure there's a third-party; or if Jim is, then there is another one other than he.)I guess it's just an aid to make sure that inspects aren't roleblocked or something. Yeah, it's not that useful.
Quote
2. ...Danish? Look, I know that Vector is a polyglot (Yes she's awesome :I) but..you're also Danish? And why Danish?I don't know. I guess I'm Danish. I haven't actually asked Vector that yet.
Vector: Which country are we in?
Quote
3. Solifuge was a mathematician?Hm, I guess not. I think that my thinking he was was because of something someone else said. I can't remember who or when, though.
Quote
What are you saying here?Interesting that although we choose who to lynch, we just find the bodies.We can put Ottofar's death as a red herring as it was by divine intervention that he died (unless..a modkill = that O_o) ANYWAY, bits of organ and flesh were found on the decedent's body, which was atop the White Swan's grave.
...My imagination shudders at what that was.
I'd love to ask Horatio or the Prince if there was any sign of desecration at the grave, but I'm busy D:
Quote
I was sitting on the steps of the Great Hall tuning my instrument. The prince walked past, then came back with a wet cloth and basin, to tend to Horatio. I asked if he needed help, but he declined. He stayed a bit longer, watching me play, then thanked me for offering and told me to sleep well.N1 I did nothing. My flavour involved me finding the Prince as he was going to attend to the sick Horatio.Interesting, dat one.
Expound on what happened, and what was the flavor? (Paraphrase it.)
PPE:
Quote
Also why use that skill instead of the others?I didn't want to stop protects, and I thought there might be a better time to use the one that's actually really useful.
Leafsnail:
They're made of iron and were bound to my feet as punishment for some unspecified thing I didn't do a long time ago.
In any case, I checked and my cursed shoes are there because I once cheated on a (female) lover. Apparently that isn't too relevant to the game though.Did you do it or didn't you?
PPE:
I'm pretty sure Jim was always a Goddess. It's just her secret team ofInteresting that you know a lot about it. What makes you think this?espersdisciples were originally there to restrain her powers, and without Solifuge the restraints weakened.
Quote
@TheWetSheep: Why didn't you use a power night one? Specifically, the power to block nightkills.A very good question that you should probably ask Griffinpup. I replaced in after N1.
Quote
I'd be fairly happy with lynching ZU today, still, if we are unable to fully solve the puzzle. Thematically it would make sense for the Goddess to have one evil and one good disciple.Only fairly happy? Hasn't ZU been your no. 1 scumpick for a while?
Post by: Leafsnail on September 07, 2013, 08:35:58 pm
Did you do it or didn't you?My role PM suggested no and that I didn't want to remember what event led to my cursed shoes. When I asked Vector to have me recall she said that yes, I had breached someone's trust. I think the role PM being wrong was due to my character's repression of the memory.
Interesting that you know a lot about it. What makes you think this?Because that's how it works in the anime the sleeping goddess role is taken from (and Vector knows this). It also seems like the obvious conclusion to draw if people are following a goddess who doesn't realize she is one.
A very good question that you should probably ask Griffinpup. I replaced in after N1.Ok then. Why didn't you use the nightkill blocker on night two?
Only fairly happy? Hasn't ZU been your no. 1 scumpick for a while?Yeah. But I'd rather work out the puzzle, since Vector has stated that doing so would result in a definite town win.
Post by: Vector on September 07, 2013, 09:05:24 pm
Post by: Jim Groovester on September 07, 2013, 09:06:23 pm
Why do you want to be the Prince's wife if it might make you lose your dreaming powers?
This isn't the issue. The issue is that my parents want it removed, and they think sending me to the Prince will cure me.
I think no such thing. And I don't want it removed anyway.
But you were only the goddess after Ottofar died? That's a bit odd. Shouldn't there have been a goddess D1 too, if Soli and ZU's roles were based on her?
I believe I have always been the Goddess. I just didn't know it yet. And something happened where I suddenly became Super Dream Princess.
Interesting that although we choose who to lynch, we just find the bodies.
So who's doing the killing?
I think this is important enough that we do more than just mention it in passing.
Vector: Which country are we in?
Look at all these Hamlet references!
Really, what country could this be!?
It's a mystery!
I can cause all inspections to go through.
. . .
1. Why would something hinder inspections? That's pretty much a very subjective one-shot there. Unless it's connected (like, town vs scum numbers. I'm pretty sure there's a third-party; or if Jim is, then there is another one other than he.)
Moreover, why is your power something that prevents failure in only a limited number of cases?
This is kind of suspect.
> ...My role has never been touched. Why did Jim become a Goddess, exactly? What's your thoughts on it? Same goes to Leafsnail, Toaster, Lenglon and TWS...And ZU.I'm pretty sure Jim was always a Goddess. It's just her secret team ofespersdisciples were originally there to restrain her powers, and without Solifuge the restraints weakened.
You mean the assassin nun? Who nowhere in her role PM mentions anything about making sure the Goddess' power remains restrained?
Definitely fits totally yeah.
Thematically it would make sense for the Goddess to have one evil and one good disciple.
Uh, how? If they're my disciples they should be working towards the same goals I have.
Post by: Leafsnail on September 07, 2013, 09:19:31 pm
Post by: Leafsnail on September 07, 2013, 09:22:23 pm
Post by: webadict on September 07, 2013, 10:00:55 pm
*ahem*I could argue the semantics behind this, but the easiest way to say it is: I don't have to claim anything. This is the default. Giving information and eliminating uncertainty is double-edged. On the one hand, there could be information that helps. On the other hand, there eliminates protection and creates valuable targets. If the information were more beneficial, there could be a reason to release it.
Good guys must work together and share information. While I'd agree that it'd make you a bit more obvious to scum, it would also serve as a cover up that you don't want it being told.
..Which was my impression when you were talking to Jim back then about that dream. That was flavor. And unless it wasn't, then it's game-related.
And thematically, it is the question you have to answer. Which...you did.QuoteI gave flavor because there were good reasons brought forth. I do not see the same for claiming roles.However it is preceded by a very conflicting detail.QuoteThe point is you have to convince me there's sufficient reason to claim anything.Why shouldn't you?
This is why massive claims at the beginning of the game are horribly anti-Town. You remove anonymity and uncertainty.
So, in short: No. There's no reason to claim my role. There is no need to defend that decision. In fact, it's tantamount to rolefishing.
I should never have to defend my decision to not claim. That is on a whole different level of stupid to even suggest it.
Post by: Tiruin on September 07, 2013, 10:07:40 pm
I should never have to defend my decision to not claim. That is on a whole different level of stupid to even suggest it.Not part of my case :/
What I'm poking at is the beneficial part. The more people know, the better. Currently, it is assumed that scum know a heck lot more (and their path on the puzzle is the easy VIOLENCE way). The lack of detail and contribution, while subjective in this situation, just leaves a bad taste in that there's information being withheld.
Leafsnail: I note that you didn't claim either. Only note being shoes, you flirting (being trivial as you said), and what happened during N1/2. What did you do during those times?
This is why massive claims at the beginning of the game are horribly anti-Town. You remove anonymity and uncertainty.Are they also anti-scum?
Quote
I could argue the semantics behind this, but the easiest way to say it is: I don't have to claim anything. This is the default. Giving information and eliminating uncertainty is double-edged. On the one hand, there could be information that helps. On the other hand, there eliminates protection and creates valuable targets. If the information were more beneficial, there could be a reason to release it.What protection would there be for a townie? I've already seen by process of elimination that a few are more town than the rest--that being the musician and the Goddess (who is going along third-party for me). ZU's note on being a follower of the Goddess also gives detail on him, but his posts and logic isn't matching up--he's missing questions and taking a page out of brevity, along with general questioning on 'who to lynch'.
That's where my logic comes from. Not a form of cheating (btw), but a form of discerning and comparing from past events.
...Though I'm totally confused how people would relate being a flower-person to 'Hey, the White Swan is buried in a rose patch :O'.
In absence of a claim, could you tell what you did on N1/2?
Post by: webadict on September 07, 2013, 10:24:26 pm
First of all, no, you can't have what I did. Second of all, I believe we're confused on what is being asked. Are you asking what THE NAME OF MY ROLE IS or are you asking what my role is? Because these are two separate things.
Post by: Tiruin on September 07, 2013, 10:56:06 pm
And I asked "could"-which..could be responded with something less than shock and exasperation, thanks.
And please answer these. I can't get what the benefits are--claiming doesn't explicitly mean 'throwing out your role/information' for others to dissect.
Because at this point I can't see why what you did is so important that it must be withheld, along with the note in bold above? Yeah. Okami didn't seem like he followed the same idea judging by his 4 out of 7 pertinent posts.This is why massive claims at the beginning of the game are horribly anti-Town. You remove anonymity and uncertainty.Are they also anti-scum?QuoteI could argue the semantics behind this, but the easiest way to say it is: I don't have to claim anything. This is the default. Giving information and eliminating uncertainty is double-edged. On the one hand, there could be information that helps. On the other hand, there eliminates protection and creates valuable targets. If the information were more beneficial, there could be a reason to release it.What protection would there be for a townie?
..And I just noticed that flowers and dresses have been thoroughly discussed at his time. Very strange.
Anyway. judging by this (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4489707#msg4489707), it seems that you've no care or need for knowledge of such, or any other triviality according to said flavor.
What is the core fact on why you're not claiming? To give scum an edge? From this point onwards, (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4537991#msg4537991) (#57 lurkertracker)
You stated:
I've minimalised as much of my flavor as possible in order to avoid revealing my role. In fact, anyone clever should be able to figure out what my role is from my flavor claim.This (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4571729#msg4571729) and probably (well, I don't know why you said this (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4562729#msg4562729) but it doesn't sound like snark)
You didn't flavorclaim, exactly. You just said you have slippers..And when we say slippers here, they're..um, flip-flops, as how other countries say it? >_<
AnywayYou did say your point on it. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4572811#msg4572811) However here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4575277#msg4575277) you're just uncomfortable with people knowing it -now- than later. But this. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4579067#msg4579067) You're with Leafsnail in a way that the music compels you to dance. And..I'm somehow thinking the story of the pied piper here--like you both share a past with him.
Though..This (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4582290#msg4582290) is an intriguing catch. While he didn't say anything regarding who did what about the white swan, (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4524604#msg4524604) the other deaths have notes.
Oh, and on that flavor, the only idea in my head is that you're Cinderella.
...I've no idea on how that relates to protection or whatnot other than assume that the Black Swan cohort is a group of angry stepsisters who are rich and pretty much condescending jerks.
..That's what I remember of the movie anyway.
Or that the musician has power over different shoes.
Lenglon: About that role.. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4579062#msg4579062)why do you eat dirt?
..And what did you do on N1?
ZU: Expound on this. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4579036#msg4579036) Why. How.
I'm basing my thoughts on this note (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4580305#msg4580305) compared to the OP.
Tiruin looks at the Prince once more, glancing around before speaking her question. "What do you think about your subjects, milord? What do you think about yourself, and your possessions?
"What do you understand about 'evil'?"
Post by: Tiruin on September 07, 2013, 10:56:33 pm
I'm basing my thoughts on this note (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4580305#msg4580305) compared to the OP.Speak to the Prince.
Tiruin looks at the Prince once more, glancing around before speaking her question. "What do you think about your subjects, milord? What do you think about yourself, and your possessions?
"What do you understand about 'evil'?"
Post by: Tiruin on September 07, 2013, 10:58:43 pm
...Why do you want the Prince, on that note?
Post by: Lenglon on September 07, 2013, 11:17:22 pm
Lenglon: About that role.. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4579062#msg4579062)why do you eat dirt?I tried and failed to eat dirt on night one, because I got hungry, after I followed Solifuge and saw her go to GriffonDay's room.
..And what did you do on N1?
Post by: Tiruin on September 07, 2013, 11:27:50 pm
"I... well, my first night here, I... well, I was kinda lost, worried, and suspicious. So I first listened to my suspicions and followed Solifuge until she went into Griffonday's room. then afterwards I felt hungry, and thirsty, so went out to the garden and I tried to eat some dirt... that... that didn't end well. afterwards I tried to drink some water, but no matter how long I stood in the pond, my ro-[...]""Ro-ooots?"
Tiruin blinks.
"..This is confusing. Flowers don't eat dirt. They..get the food from the dirt. And..you're brave enough to claim you're a flower-girl in front of everyone.
"..Really confusing. Anyway."
I take it you got interrupted N2, huh. As in..following others? I'm pretty doubtful that those that can take actions are interrupted by Jim's Dreamer style.
[spoiler-OOC. Oh Lenglon]
I tried and failed to eat dirt on night one, because I got hungry[...]xD[/spoiler]
Post by: zombie urist on September 07, 2013, 11:36:26 pm
ZU: Expound on this. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4579036#msg4579036) Why. How.I'm pretty sure I already answered this. Its because I protected her N1.
Yeah, I guess you're right mostly. But if you read Solifuge's role PM it implies she originally intended to fight the Prince to protect you, and it was only because she fell in love upon seeing him that she didn't. So if ZU didn't do that then he'd be mafia.I'm a blesser, not a fighter.
Also, ZU: You shrugged off LS' accusations as you being lazy and..other detrimental adjectives and evaded me querying you on why you're like that.His accusations are basically true, but they're because I'm busy and have never been really focused on this game.
Why.
Something strikes me as interesting, ZU. Why would two mathematicians be following a goddess?I'm not a mathematician per se, I use math to protect people. N1 I let x=Graham's number and put it on Lenglon's door so that anyone doing her harm would stop and ponder it instead. N2 I drew a cardioid and everyone who wishes to do Jim harm would think about love instead.
> Why can't it be me.Because the prince was talking to you and referred to the other person in third person.
> Why do you want to lynch Horatio..and of your comments on the lynch, why that mention of a No Lynch (and why does it seem that you're going along with the flow rather than give your take on the matter)?
These things are worth considering in a semibastard.
Also, three questions. What happened when you doctor'd them-why did you doctor Jim/Lenglon? And why are you ignoring me poking at you ignoring Leafsnail's vote on you?They got doctored. I felt they were town and might be NK'd. I'm not.
More coming...
Post by: zombie urist on September 08, 2013, 12:04:54 am
Solifuge and I are mentioned here. It looks like I'm the one who refused to change dresses and Solifuge is the tall one.
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4547900#msg4547900
Web 1 was QES'd by me to stop Horatio's guilt.
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4580305#msg4580305
Horatio's doing the lynching and ate part of Web 1. Ewww...
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4582715#msg4582715
Sigfred is Hamlet's younger brother. Griffionday is Sigfred's younger brother.
Not sure if mentioned already.
Sigfred:
What happened to Fortinbras?
Did you know there are males within us 13 "princesses"?
Do you trust Horatio?
Do you know anything of the Rose Clan? How about the Lily Clan?
Do you have any other siblings?
TWS: Are you male or female?
LS, Web: Does anything happen to you guys if the musician dies?
extend Probably busy tomorrow.
Post by: zombie urist on September 08, 2013, 12:06:07 am
Post by: Lenglon on September 08, 2013, 12:30:00 am
I take it you got interrupted N2, huh. As in..following others? I'm pretty doubtful that those that can take actions are interrupted by Jim's Dreamer style.No, N2 I followed Toaster to Web. my N2 flavor was overwhelmingly about Jim's message, little else.
Post by: Tiruin on September 08, 2013, 12:37:30 am
So everyone you protect gets a QES?ZU: Expound on this. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4579036#msg4579036) Why. How.I'm pretty sure I already answered this. Its because I protected her N1.
Post by: Tiruin on September 08, 2013, 12:38:20 am
Also Tiruin you are being very hypocritical by asking webadict to claim and not fully claiming yourself.>_> I claimed in full, only that I can't directly claim.
Post by: Lenglon on September 08, 2013, 12:52:35 am
Link please?Also Tiruin you are being very hypocritical by asking webadict to claim and not fully claiming yourself.>_> I claimed in full, only that I can't directly claim.
Post by: Lenglon on September 08, 2013, 12:53:19 am
flavor for above
Post by: Tiruin on September 08, 2013, 12:55:31 am
Check it. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4580163;topicseen#msg4580163)
ZU: What do you know about spirits?
Post by: Lenglon on September 08, 2013, 01:08:17 am
Lenglon swallows
"Would... would you hurt me if I followed you tonight?"
Tiruin: would you kill me if I followed you?
Post by: Tiruin on September 08, 2013, 01:50:26 am
"If I say no, would you believe me? Ahaha. I'm no killer. A defender has a different style than to kill, and I am not one who sheds blood.
"...And I don't punch lillies. Silly.
"..For that matter, I don't go anywhere at night, so I'd suggest you followed someone else."
Post by: Lenglon on September 08, 2013, 02:06:29 am
Tiruin:just trying to work around your posting restriction.
if I inspected you, would you kill me?
if I followed you, would you kill me?
if I protected you, would you kill me?
if I tried to NK you, would you kill me?
Post by: Tiruin on September 08, 2013, 02:22:30 am
"..Err, why're you asking me if you wanted to kill me? How does..that make sense? Wouldn't that help those who want to kill? Threats to the Prince and all that?"
Post by: Lenglon on September 08, 2013, 02:44:28 am
I was focused on the ways to work around the post restriction, and didn't worry about possible harm from a claim that you'd already attempted to make.
Tiruin: if the question was bad, why did you answer it?
Tiruin: is there anything else that you want to claim but are restricted from doing so? if so, please point me in the right direction so I can ask the right questions to let you work around it.
Post by: Tiruin on September 08, 2013, 02:48:02 am
Tiruin: if the question was bad, why did you answer it?Because I can. :I
I'm wondering why you asked it.
Tiruin: is there anything else that you want to claim but are restricted from doing so? if so, please point me in the right direction so I can ask the right questions to let you work around it.. . .
Nope. Nothing else but who I am. My name.
Post by: Vector on September 08, 2013, 02:51:57 am
Tiruin looks at the Prince once more, glancing around before speaking her question. "What do you think about your subjects, milord? What do you think about yourself, and your possessions?Speak to the Prince.
"What do you understand about 'evil'?"
"My subjects are my responsibility. My blood binds me to this land and all within it, and when I am crowned, I will be bled to anoint the soil. I have no need for any material good, which is the gift given to me by my subjects in exchange for my lifeblood, and that of my line, forevermore."
He sighs, almost indiscernibly, and looks you in the eye.
"There is nothing to be understood about evil. I cannot understand any obsession with it. After all, I--We--do not reside within human obligation. We may not establish personal attachments to individual people; we are this land, and nothing less and no more."
Sigfred:
What happened to Fortinbras?
Did you know there are males within us 13 "princesses"?
Do you trust Horatio?
Do you know anything of the Rose Clan? How about the Lily Clan?
Do you have any other siblings?
"My elder brother offered Fortinbras half the kingdom and he departed, satisfied with his holdings--then, at least. Not so long after, Brother departed as well. I trust Horatio with my life. It was he who convinced Fortinbras to break the circle of revenge. That Brother offered half the land was his decision. It may not have been a wise one. But I cannot judge him; I am the last of my line and must rather focus on the present.
"I did not know that there were men here among the thirteen. A misfortune. I must, after all, produce an heir.
"As for the Rose and Lily Clans. . . ? I think I may have heard the old gardener rambling about it, but all he meant by it was "roses" and "lilies." Sometimes he would talk to the plants as though they were people; he did not distinguish between animate and inanimate things. He felt he was steward of all the earth and all beings upon it. Just and kind.
". . . I think, sometimes, that he would have made a better Prince than I."
Post by: Lenglon on September 08, 2013, 03:02:56 am
I'm wondering why you asked it.the logic sequence would have been incomplete without it.
Post by: Tiruin on September 08, 2013, 03:46:53 am
the logic sequence would have been incomplete without it.You could've gone with 'kill' for exactness. Instead you went with NK. Specifically, a scum deal.
What logic would be in that sequence?
"Well, when you reminded me of your story, you also said that you couldn't directly tell us who you are and what you can do. but I noticed that you were able too... skirt the edges? you could get pretty close anyway. but I noticed that you put a special emphasis on the word kill near the end of the tale.[...]"You remember what Tiruin said. You remember it seems mostly like she's taunting or goading, or just giving a good laugh after delivering a long tale such as that.
So yes, that's me (wo)manning up.
". . . I think, sometimes, that he would have made a better Prince than I."[/i]"You've done more than many men of greater calibre could not do, that I can say."
What I think we know
> Horatio is innocent (yes this is mostly coming from me.)
> There is something attached to a role regarding the town vs scum outnumbering deal.
> There is a Goddess. Jim claims Goddess. Dreams. Stuff.
> We've got 2 people affected by the musician (TWS). Okami[Webadict] and Leafsnail.
> By logical reasoning, there are 2 scum left. In the worst case, 3.
> "Love and Synthesis." I'm really betting that this has to do in a generality, but that we should not think too much on the details. Lynch scum first--that doesn't seem to go against the violent route (I mean, going by the elegant route, I'm pretty doubtful that we can persuade them off as they're players..)
Post by: webadict on September 08, 2013, 08:39:56 am
The name O_owebadict the Red Shoes.
And I asked "could"-which..could be responded with something less than shock and exasperation, thanks.You said "should" as in "Why shouldn't you claim?" (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4583951#msg4583951) as in "What precedent stands for you to not claim?" as if there were already standing traditions for claiming. You didn't ask if I could claim.
And please answer these. I can't get what the benefits are--claiming doesn't explicitly mean 'throwing out your role/information' for others to dissect.
And yes, claiming means EXACTLY throwing out role/information, as you are claiming something is true, such as being a role or some information you have.
The protection for a townie is that they cannot judge whether you are a top priority target or a low priority target as accurately. Maybe I'm a cop. Maybe I'm a doctor. Maybe I'm a paranoid war veteran. Nobody knows. Uncertainty means that I can be anything.Because at this point I can't see why what you did is so important that it must be withheld, along with the note in bold above? Yeah. Okami didn't seem like he followed the same idea judging by his 4 out of 7 pertinent posts.This is why massive claims at the beginning of the game are horribly anti-Town. You remove anonymity and uncertainty.Are they also anti-scum?QuoteI could argue the semantics behind this, but the easiest way to say it is: I don't have to claim anything. This is the default. Giving information and eliminating uncertainty is double-edged. On the one hand, there could be information that helps. On the other hand, there eliminates protection and creates valuable targets. If the information were more beneficial, there could be a reason to release it.What protection would there be for a townie?
And seriously, I'm not Okami. I'm not roleplaying as Okami. I never agreed to play like Okami did or does or will do. I can't help that Okami quit. But, congratulations, you've ACTUALLY got a real person playing the game. His name just happens to be webadict. So, continue to complain about how I'm not following Okami's play because if I were to play like Okami, I'd be not playing. So, can I stopped being compared to a player that doesn't exist anymore? It really annoys me.
Anyway. judging by this (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4489707#msg4489707), it seems that you've no care or need for knowledge of such, or any other triviality according to said flavor.Well, as much fun as it is to discuss someone else's words, I can only say: Maybe he didn't care.
What is the core fact on why you're not claiming? To give scum an edge? From this point onwards, (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4537991#msg4537991) (#57 lurkertracker)How does me not claiming give scum an edge? And you are either misunderstanding or not understanding at all, but if you're given a Friendly Neighbor action by a player that you were convinced was scum, you'd understand. And I had plenty of reason to assume he was scum.
You stated:I've minimalised as much of my flavor as possible in order to avoid revealing my role. In fact, anyone clever should be able to figure out what my role is from my flavor claim.This (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4571729#msg4571729) and probably (well, I don't know why you said this (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4562729#msg4562729) but it doesn't sound like snark)
You didn't flavorclaim, exactly. You just said you have slippers..And when we say slippers here, they're..um, flip-flops, as how other countries say it? >_<Right. Shoes is the more broad term, I suppose. Slippers are still the correct term as they would be the type of shoeware to slip over your feet. Think of the story of Cinderella.
AnywayYou did say your point on it. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4572811#msg4572811) However here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4575277#msg4575277) you're just uncomfortable with people knowing it -now- than later. But this. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4579067#msg4579067) You're with Leafsnail in a way that the music compels you to dance. And..I'm somehow thinking the story of the pied piper here--like you both share a past with him.
And it doesn't seem so. My shoes were a gift from someone that later turned out to be a not very nice person.
Though..This (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4582290#msg4582290) is an intriguing catch. While he didn't say anything regarding who did what about the white swan, (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4524604#msg4524604) the other deaths have notes.Ah, that's odd. I say Cinderella and look at that. But, I don't see as much correlation.
Oh, and on that flavor, the only idea in my head is that you're Cinderella.
...I've no idea on how that relates to protection or whatnot other than assume that the Black Swan cohort is a group of angry stepsisters who are rich and pretty much condescending jerks.
..That's what I remember of the movie anyway.
Or that the musician has power over different shoes.
Post by: Tiruin on September 08, 2013, 09:29:37 am
Quote
So, can I stopped being compared to a player that doesn't exist anymore? It really annoys me.Didn't wish it to come off that way, just trying to relate the predecessor and the current player..but I guess I was being too compare-y.
Quote
Ah, that's odd. I say Cinderella and look at that. But, I don't see as much correlation.I'm pretty lost in the correlation too. We've got pairs and maybe even triads popping up. Euclidean math, much? As in..linear connections?
Anyway, a thought hit me.
ZU: Why are you claiming doctor at this time?
Post by: Lenglon on September 08, 2013, 12:30:25 pm
I was listing night actions. NK means a kill that happens at night. mafiakill is the mafia's kill. NK includes SKs, mafia, vigs, JOATs, etc.the logic sequence would have been incomplete without it.You could've gone with 'kill' for exactness. Instead you went with NK. Specifically, a scum deal.
What logic would be in that sequence?
I didn't include daykills because I assumed the only one that would happen is the lynch.
Tiruin:are you saying that you kill in reaction to the lynch?
Post by: zombie urist on September 08, 2013, 02:32:28 pm
And it doesn't seem so. My shoes were a gift from someone that later turned out to be a not very nice person.What's that, Princess Red Shoes? You want me to kill the Prince? But the Prince is ever so kind. What? Your shoes came from the feet of a psychotic killer? Then I have no choice. (http://simpsons.wikia.com/wiki/The_Re-Deadening)
zombie urist blesses Webadict's shoes
Apparently not since Lenglon doesn't have one.So everyone you protect gets a QES?ZU: Expound on this. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4579036#msg4579036) Why. How.I'm pretty sure I already answered this. Its because I protected her N1.
ZU: What do you know about spirits?Nothing.
ZU: Why are you claiming doctor at this time?I felt like I was going to get lynched anyways.
Webadict: Can you take off your shoes? If you tap your shoes together do you go home? Does anything bad happen to you if the musician dies?
Toaster, Lenglon: Did your role change after the gardener died?
Post by: Leafsnail on September 08, 2013, 07:28:22 pm
Leafsnail: I note that you didn't claim either. Only note being shoes, you flirting (being trivial as you said), and what happened during N1/2. What did you do during those times?I did claim, though. I claimed my role before my flavourclaim, and again when I was making my flavourclaim, so I'm not sure how you missed it.
I'm a blesser, not a fighter.Can you explain the flavour reason for you supporting the town?
LS, Web: Does anything happen to you guys if the musician dies?There's nothing explicit in the role PM, but it implies I'd lose my power.
Post by: Lenglon on September 08, 2013, 07:45:00 pm
Toaster, Lenglon: Did your role change after the gardener died?No
Post by: Toaster on September 08, 2013, 08:31:10 pm
So far, I think the most suspicious people, based on roleclaims, are Lenglon and Toaster. You both have clans, but... nobody else is in them?
No, but I would assume there are lots of flowers in them.
Tiruin:
> ...My role has never been touched. Why did Jim become a Goddess, exactly? What's your thoughts on it? Same goes to Leafsnail, Toaster, Lenglon and TWS...And ZU.
Well, either the suggestion that Solifuge was something of a handler and released some restraints on Jim, or that Ottofar's modkill changed the rules somehow.
Zombie U:
Toaster, Lenglon: Did your role change after the gardener died?
No.
The next two days look to be godawful timewise, so let me extend and actually vote Zombie Urist for now. I don't have a logical reason why right now, but my gut is screaming "scum scum scum."
Post by: Tiruin on September 08, 2013, 08:36:26 pm
Sheep:Yeah, I'll give my part on why this is so suspicious--but that at least one of you may be more innocent than the rest. Excuse the vague level of suspicion here, but I'm making up yon post.So far, I think the most suspicious people, based on roleclaims, are Lenglon and Toaster. You both have clans, but... nobody else is in them?
No, but I would assume there are lots of flowers in them.
Oh, and exams.
Let's set the 'modkill' note as null and void, please. It's a part nobody had any control over so I'm placing it under a grey zone.> ...My role has never been touched. Why did Jim become a Goddess, exactly? What's your thoughts on it? Same goes to Leafsnail, Toaster, Lenglon and TWS...And ZU.
Well, either the suggestion that Solifuge was something of a handler and released some restraints on Jim, or that Ottofar's modkill changed the rules somehow.
The next two days look to be godawful timewise, so let me extend and actually vote Zombie Urist for now. I don't have a logical reason why right now, but my gut is screaming "scum scum scum."You're voting someone who claims a protector..and a logical background on why he did so?
Post by: Vector on September 09, 2013, 02:17:27 am
Wubbadobdobdab - TheWetSheep
Leafsnail - zombieurist
Tiruin
Lenglon
TheWetSheep
zombieurist - Leafsnail, Toaster
Jim Groovestar
Toaster
Not voting: Webadict, Lenglon, Jim Groovester, Tiruin
Day end scheduled for 12:00 noon (-8GMT) in 12 hours.
Two requests for extension to Wednesday at 12:00 noon (-8GMT) have been heard. Two more requests required to extend.
Post by: Lenglon on September 09, 2013, 02:40:54 am
Post by: zombie urist on September 09, 2013, 03:13:41 am
Post by: Tiruin on September 09, 2013, 04:36:52 am
Wait that's 2.
...
Extend. Post delayed--I'll have it up before I go into full study mode tonight. u_u
Post by: Jim Groovester on September 09, 2013, 05:04:41 am
I should've gone to bed two hours ago.
VOTE COUNT (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QxHkLdQy5f0)
This is probably what the Princess Amendment should've been; while posting you have to listen to a playlist of classical music.
See how much swearing happens with that going on.
"Indeed, I was emboldened by their straightforward bravery," says the Prince. "They sorted themselves according to common characteristics and departed for different parts of the castle to plot, acting on their own initiative, and sometimes gathering again in the great hall to discuss. These women who I had thought so simple and so mild politely bared the gleaming teeth of their intellects."
HMM INTERESTING
Splitting off into groups according to common characteristics and heading off into different parts of the castle.
HMM INTERESTING
Now what could that be all about?
HMM INTERESTING
"On the first night one of the girls said she wanted to eat a white swan. It seemed strange but I remembered that many of the girls had not had such treats thanks to their common upbringing, and so I told Horatio to go slaughter one. He did. Then he sent her to the chefs, who prepared and dressed the body. They brought it out; he tasted it; and then the illusion disappeared, and we rediscovered one of the girls. You must remember that.
Did Horatio knowingly kill the White Swan or was he under the influence of some sort of power?
And then Tiruin's N1 flavor seems to suggest that Horatio didn't know what was happening (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.510).
And then Solifuge's dying words were about sacrifice (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4547900#msg4547900).
We don't seem to be directly kill people, instead terrible things happen to them. I suspect I may be partially or entirely responsible for this.
So you're not a duck but you're the person Griffionday was looking for....
I'll just say a general 'yes'. Because you don't seem to respect subtlety.
Are you or have you been a duck or other feathered creature?
Can it be said that you both walk like a duck and talk like a duck?
Well, either the suggestion that Solifuge was something of a handler and released some restraints on Jim, or that Ottofar's modkill changed the rules somehow.
On clarifying with Vector, my transformation into Dreaming Goddess was not a timed event, it was in response to something. Vector describes it as something that was draining me was removed.
I have three one-shot actions, which take the form of songs I can play.
Do these songs have names?
The next two days look to be godawful timewise, so let me extend and actually vote Zombie Urist for now. I don't have a logical reason why right now, but my gut is screaming "scum scum scum."
This is about as shitty a vote can get.
You don't even have a shitty reason for why zombie urist is making your gut scream bloody murder.
My first night's flavour didn't seem too relevant. I heard some fairly sad music, and thought about whether webadict was really a swan or a girl.
Why is your N1 flavor so sparse?
Tiruin has no active action and managed to get a PM full of chatting with the Prince and stuff. Lenglon has an action, and yet her PM was filled with things unrelated to it like eating dirt and trying to soak water through her feet. Toster has an action, but managed to chill out with the Prince and convince him to bury the White Swan in the rose garden. TheWetSheep did nothing with his action and still managed to chat up with the Prince.
Point being, even if they don't have an action, and even when they do, people still went out and did something. Sitting around listening to music wondering whether Wubadubadoo was a swan or a girl seems pretty passive and out of place for N1 flavor.
Unless, of course, you were out doing something, but you couldn't claim it for incriminating reasons.
Leafsnail.
"Um, when NQT died, I... I was upset at the loss, but her death didn't change what I'm able to do or anything."
Why were you upset at the loss?
What was your character's opinion of him? Did you know him before you became a real girl?
Toaster, you can answer these questions too.
Wubadubadoodle, any similarities of your role to the fairy tale of the red shoes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Red_Shoes_%28fairy_tale%29) beyond the cursed, dancing red shoes?
Also, Vector saying that the forces of good would do their best to close the information gap still doesn't convince you to claim as much as possible?
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Tiruin on September 09, 2013, 05:47:34 am
True. But what box are we thinking in, in the first place-is what baffles me.Spoiler (click to show/hide)
The information gap is what precludes all townies being town-distrust blah blah.
But I've a feeling that scum can't wriggle out of this one.
"Ah, good, we get more pointy. I can act like one, yeah. I bet you can too, or did you not take acting lessons from the local bard? On whether I've been one or not-that's up to the imagination, isn't it? I mean..I do usually fantasize of being a knight one day.So you're not a duck but you're the person Griffionday was looking for....
I'll just say a general 'yes'. Because you don't seem to respect subtlety.
Are you or have you been a duck or other feathered creature?
Can it be said that you both walk like a duck and talk like a duck?
"And..err, that's pretty rude of you to tell me that. Do you have a problem with my country of origin? That my accent is different from yours? Look, I know that I'm technically 'foreign' from these parts, but that's no case to put on me. I'll label that as ignorance at the moment."
Tiruin raises an eyebrow and strides over to punch you on the shoulder, in a friendly-way.
"But I'll take it upon insult and put that off as a comely joke. Because that hurts my self-esteem. Hypothetically, why would you want to know any of your implications there?"
..Yeah.
Actually, Horatio didn't know if he actually knew. I parsed that as confusion. Then, he told me that his mind was full-set on it. It's like trauma: you remember, and you think..and in a simple way you don't even know if you knew."On the first night one of the girls said she wanted to eat a white swan. It seemed strange but I remembered that many of the girls had not had such treats thanks to their common upbringing, and so I told Horatio to go slaughter one. He did. Then he sent her to the chefs, who prepared and dressed the body. They brought it out; he tasted it; and then the illusion disappeared, and we rediscovered one of the girls. You must remember that.
Did Horatio knowingly kill the White Swan or was he under the influence of some sort of power?
And then Tiruin's N1 flavor seems to suggest that Horatio didn't know what was happening (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.510).
[...]
You broke the link to mine by the way. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4580163#msg4580163)
This (your notes in the post) is forwarding my suspicion I said earlier. Well..a post earlier before I shamelessly fell asleep on my textbook >.> But yeah. I'm noting it down.
Remember those herbs and other fragrances that we've seen Solifuge use before she..expired? And the note on spirits (which I allude to pure flavor only because..err, I know nothing about it)
...Jim: "Are you fancy of any perfumes or odorous objects? Herbs or any good fragrances? Any allergies or any knowledge of getting affected by such substances?"
No, no, also no.
Are you all out of questions yet?
I believe that..(ok I'm not sure if this is realistic but I'll just lower my voice).
Either this castle is cursed-the prince is cursed-or the BSC [Black Swan Cohort]..or in an unexplainable way-Jim (which I doubt), is the cause of all this.
Like maaaagic~ Unexplained deeds being done at the lynch? Notes on 'Death walks this hall'? The forces of Good should band together, as I'm firmly under the suspicion that the scumteam is well damn armed with info on this matter.
...
"Also are you in..y'know, 'that', Jim? You sound rather agitated..I mean, I don't blame you if you are...but cut down on the..the..."
Tiruin assumes the stance of a tiger bearing its paws..well, claws and flails them about.
"well, that."
(Remember the Princess rule?)
...
Tiruin turns around and looks at the Prince, asking him again.
"Milord, was Horatio exposed to any sort of flower or..pretty much receiving any kind of gift or fragrance back before 'that' dinner? Are there any aromaticobjects you keep here-on your person or by someone else?
"And how many gowns in all were needed by all of us whence we first entered? As in, how many were given?"
...And on a total skim-read note which I think is irrelevant but then my intuition tells me to say: I pictured the yellow diary as what I recall reading somewhere as The King in Yellow or somesuch like that. Heard it from a book I heard from a friend. Meh.
Post by: webadict on September 09, 2013, 08:12:05 am
Wubadubadoodle, any similarities of your role to the fairy tale of the red shoes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Red_Shoes_%28fairy_tale%29) beyond the cursed, dancing red shoes?I have never read that tale. Huh. There's some similarities, but it's not really the same. I'm assuming, knowing Vector, that these similarities are completely on purpose.
Also, Vector saying that the forces of good would do their best to close the information gap still doesn't convince you to claim as much as possible?Spoiler (click to show/hide)
And no. I DON'T feel like claiming my role. I don't really care what Vector says. Closing the information gap doesn't mean claiming every single thing. All that does is create targets. I've given everything that was necessary.
Oh, and don't ask whether Tiruin is a duck. Say she is a duck. Tiruin, you're a duck.
Post by: Tiruin on September 09, 2013, 09:20:44 am
I have never read that tale. Huh. There's some similarities, but it's not really the same. I'm assuming, knowing Vector, that these similarities are completely on purpose....Sure, believe what you want to believe.
And no. I DON'T feel like claiming my role. I don't really care what Vector says. Closing the information gap doesn't mean claiming every single thing. All that does is create targets. I've given everything that was necessary.
Oh, and don't ask whether Tiruin is a duck. Say she is a duck. Tiruin, you're a duck.
Tiruin defenestrates subtlety.
I love English. :v
And no. I DON'T feel like claiming my role. I don't really care what Vector says. Closing the information gap doesn't mean claiming every single thing. All that does is create targets. I've given everything that was necessary.And you think you'll be a more prominent target..how? If town, refusing to claim makes it all the spicier. Or saltier. Or something of value. If scum...well, that explains itself--though I'm pretty sure Scum Webadict (okami) could come up with a better reason than outright No.
Can you directly claim your role?
Post by: webadict on September 09, 2013, 09:28:00 am
Maybe I'll be a better target. Maybe I won't. Doesn't really matter if I never reveal my role. I already gave you the name and the flavor, so there's no real excuse for giving my role.And no. I DON'T feel like claiming my role. I don't really care what Vector says. Closing the information gap doesn't mean claiming every single thing. All that does is create targets. I've given everything that was necessary.And you think you'll be a more prominent target..how? If town, refusing to claim makes it all the spicier. Or saltier. Or something of value. If scum...well, that explains itself--though I'm pretty sure Scum Webadict (okami) could come up with a better reason than outright No.
Can you directly claim your role?
I could directly claim my role if I wanted to. But I don't want to. There's no justifiable reason to claim at this moment. I don't get why claiming would be useful for anyone BUT scum.
Post by: TheWetSheep on September 09, 2013, 09:28:37 am
Okay.Did you do it or didn't you?My role PM suggested no and that I didn't want to remember what event led to my cursed shoes. When I asked Vector to have me recall she said that yes, I had breached someone's trust. I think the role PM being wrong was due to my character's repression of the memory.
Quote
1: I thought there might be a more important time to use it later on(I'm generally conservative with night actions)A very good question that you should probably ask Griffinpup. I replaced in after N1.Ok then. Why didn't you use the nightkill blocker on night two?
2: I thought there might be no scumkill, since there probably wasn't N1.
ZU:
TWS: Are you male or female?Female.
Toaster:
Sheep:Hmmm. Odd, that there would be clans that get mentioned so often in your role PMs that have nobody else in them and no real relevance to the game. I feel like there must be something more important here. Maybe you two are competing for flower-mastery or something?So far, I think the most suspicious people, based on roleclaims, are Lenglon and Toaster. You both have clans, but... nobody else is in them?
No, but I would assume there are lots of flowers in them.
I feel like we shouldn't lynch ZU. Jim is probably the most important role here, and getting rid of both of the people who are protecting him feels like a bad idea.
Post by: Tiruin on September 09, 2013, 10:12:37 am
TWS
Leafsnail:...Okay.Did you do it or didn't you?My role PM suggested no and that I didn't want to remember what event led to my cursed shoes. When I asked Vector to have me recall she said that yes, I had breached someone's trust. I think the role PM being wrong was due to my character's repression of the memory.Quote1: I thought there might be a more important time to use it later on(I'm generally conservative with night actions)A very good question that you should probably ask Griffinpup. I replaced in after N1.Ok then. Why didn't you use the nightkill blocker on night two?
2: I thought there might be no scumkill, since there probably wasn't N1.
You 'thought' there might be no scumkill? Wat. Probably wasn't, N1? 'Probably'?
What happened to a surety here?
Quote
I feel like we shouldn't lynch ZU. Jim is probably the most important role here, and getting rid of both of the people who are protecting him feels like a bad idea.So for the lack of definitives, you're seemingly against lynching ZU. How is Jim the most important role for you here? Please expound on the bolded portion.
Case in point, you're voting Webadict. [Okami]
..And not continuing on him at all.
So who do you feel 'we' shouldn't lynch? Or on this notion, 'should'?
ZU: Why did you protect Lenglon instead of Jim at the time?
Post by: Vector on September 09, 2013, 12:11:58 pm
Tiruin turns around and looks at the Prince, asking him again.
"Milord, was Horatio exposed to any sort of flower or..pretty much receiving any kind of gift or fragrance back before 'that' dinner? Are there any aromaticobjects you keep here-on your person or by someone else?
"And how many gowns in all were needed by all of us whence we first entered? As in, how many were given?"
"We keep herbs in the kitchen and flowers on the tables (why waste the spring?) and dried lavender sachets wherever we can put them--as we always have. Bad odors are destructive to health and temperament. He did not receive any gifts, to my knowledge.
"Since thirteen girls came in and seven would not wear the white clothing sent in, then that must mean that six wore them."
Post by: Leafsnail on September 09, 2013, 02:19:35 pm
Why is your N1 flavor so sparse?Because I didn't do shit. Over three days after the day started Vector sent me a bit of flavour about me lying in bed thinking about things, while saying it was fluff anyway.
And you know what? I can prove it.
[[I need to write 3 more PMs. None of these are directly relevant to the game, soooo feel free to play. They will be sent out tomorrow morning]]Vector: these PMs weren't all sent by the next morning, were they?
1: I thought there might be a more important time to use it later on(I'm generally conservative with night actions)Fair enough.
2: I thought there might be no scumkill, since there probably wasn't N1.
Post by: Vector on September 09, 2013, 02:24:21 pm
Post by: Jim Groovester on September 09, 2013, 10:21:18 pm
I have three one-shot actions, which take the form of songs I can play.
Do these songs have names?
"Hypothetically, why would you want to know any of your implications there?"
Mostly because I'm curious.
"Also are you in..y'know, 'that', Jim? You sound rather agitated..I mean, I don't blame you if you are...but cut down on the..the..."
Tiruin assumes the stance of a tiger bearing its paws..well, claws and flails them about.
"well, that."
(Remember the Princess rule?)
What the fuck are you asking.
And could you please do a better job of burying everything you want to say or ask inside incomprehensible RP? Because if you could, that'd be fantastic.
No. They very much weren't.
Blargh.
Unvote.
Maybe rereading Day 1 will bring up something useful.
Post by: zombie urist on September 10, 2013, 12:08:10 am
ZU: Why did you protect Lenglon instead of Jim at the time?Lenglon felt most worthy of protection N1.
The prince is a pretty cool dude. Also he had this really cool book on math proofs that he showed me and we read it together.I'm a blesser, not a fighter.Can you explain the flavour reason for you supporting the town?
NQT (gardener) dies -> nothing happened to Toaster/Lenglon
TWS dies -> LS loses power (claimed, implied)
Jim dies -> "terrible things happen"
I'm out of ideas. :(
Post by: TheWetSheep on September 10, 2013, 09:01:28 pm
Tiruin:
You 'thought' there might be no scumkill? Wat. Probably wasn't, N1? 'Probably'?I didn't want to say "definitely" because there's a (very low) chance that scum killed Griffionday too.
What happened to a surety here?
Quote
Why Jim's important:QuoteI feel like we shouldn't lynch ZU. Jim is probably the most important role here, and getting rid of both of the people who are protecting him feels like a bad idea.So for the lack of definitives, you're seemingly against lynching ZU. How is Jim the most important role for you here? Please expound on the bolded portion.
1. He's about as close as you can get to being confirmed town.
2. From what we've seen, his role is very powerful(with him being a goddess and all).
Bolded part: Griffionday's role flavour was mostly relating to Jim, but there were no stated abilities relating directly to him, and I'm assuming ZU's is similar. This makes me think there's something hidden-mechanics-wise that links those three.
Quote
Case in point, you're voting Webadict. [Okami]Right. Unvote
..And not continuing on him at all.
Quote
So who do you feel 'we' shouldn't lynch? Or on this notion, 'should'?I have no idea. I have a gut feeling that Leafsnail is scum, but that's all it is - a gut feeling. I'll follow up on it later.
Jim:
TheWetSheep:They do, but claiming them word for word would go against the rules of no quoting theI have three one-shot actions, which take the form of songs I can play.
Do these songs have names?
mod. I guess I can give you an idea of what they look like. If I had a protection song, it would be called something like a Healer's Song or a Song of Protection.
Post by: Toaster on September 10, 2013, 09:14:37 pm
Post by: Leafsnail on September 10, 2013, 09:15:20 pm
The prince is a pretty cool dude. Also he had this really cool book on math proofs that he showed me and we read it together.Right, I guess that works.
NQT (gardener) dies -> nothing happened to Toaster/LenglonToaster/Lenglon dying would probably have done something to NQT. I think Jim's role is pretty integral to the game, so he might be able to come back after dying? I dunno, I'm struggling to get any sort of purchase on the puzzle in this game.
TWS dies -> LS loses power (claimed, implied)
Jim dies -> "terrible things happen"
I'm out of ideas. :(
Post by: Vector on September 10, 2013, 09:29:30 pm
Wubbadobdobdab
Leafsnail - zombieurist
Tiruin
Lenglon
TheWetSheep - Tiruin
zombieurist - Leafsnail, Toaster
Jim Groovestar
Toaster
Not voting: Webadict, Lenglon, Jim Groovester, TheWetSheep
Day end scheduled for 12:00 noon (-8GMT) in 16 hours. Four requests for extension to Friday at 12:00 noon (-8GMT) required.
Post by: Tiruin on September 10, 2013, 11:21:01 pm
Tiruin addresses the Prince again because Horatio seems busy.
"Dear Prince, could you ask Horatio--I fear I have offended him--on who had announced in the first place, that there were rumors of interlopers within our midst? Or..who did it in the first place?
"I had only heard it from others and it comes across as rumor to me. Proven rumor as of now, but back then..well, vague rumor. The sort of rumor wherein the source is indistinct."
Jim
What the fuck are you asking.Two things.
And could you please do a better job of burying everything you want to say or ask inside incomprehensible RP? Because if you could, that'd be fantastic.
Blargh.
1. Expletives. You don't seem to be picking on the part of how to communicate without them.
2. Communication. It isn't 'burying' in so much that you want things straight out. Which is obviously why I'm using such--you need to learn a step in communication to learn that I'm saying exactly what is needed. Just that it has bits of communication in it.
Thanks for the rudeness >_>
ZU
NQT (gardener) dies -> nothing happened to Toaster/LenglonBy terrible things happen, it isn't an inference, is it?
TWS dies -> LS loses power (claimed, implied)
Jim dies -> "terrible things happen"
I'm out of ideas. :(
...Why are you out of ideas? O.o
Nothing else to ponder on?
Leafsnail
I'm pretty sure synthesis = putting things together, to say bluntly.NQT (gardener) dies -> nothing happened to Toaster/LenglonToaster/Lenglon dying would probably have done something to NQT. I think Jim's role is pretty integral to the game, so he might be able to come back after dying? I dunno, I'm struggling to get any sort of purchase on the puzzle in this game.
TWS dies -> LS loses power (claimed, implied)
Jim dies -> "terrible things happen"
I'm out of ideas. :(
I doubt that Toaster/Lenglon are associated with NQT. A Gardener in that--well, his--sense would be pretty strange to bring those flowers to life.
I'm divided on whether it is a fakeclaim or not--mostly everyone has claimed as of late and Jim hasn't said a confirmatory word on it all.
What is your opinion on how things are going as of late?
TWS
You..seem like you forgot that your vote was on someone. Why? Especially when you voted him with a reason.
Gah. I lost a post. Retyping is a pain....'Very low chance'? I don't get you. What are you using to link those up?
Tiruin:You 'thought' there might be no scumkill? Wat. Probably wasn't, N1? 'Probably'?I didn't want to say "definitely" because there's a (very low) chance that scum killed Griffionday too.
What happened to a surety here?QuoteWhy Jim's important:QuoteI feel like we shouldn't lynch ZU. Jim is probably the most important role here, and getting rid of both of the people who are protecting him feels like a bad idea.So for the lack of definitives, you're seemingly against lynching ZU. How is Jim the most important role for you here? Please expound on the bolded portion.
1. He's about as close as you can get to being confirmed town.
2. From what we've seen, his role is very powerful(with him being a goddess and all).
Bolded part: Griffionday's role flavour was mostly relating to Jim, but there were no stated abilities relating directly to him, and I'm assuming ZU's is similar. This makes me think there's something hidden-mechanics-wise that links those three.
How does it relate to Jim? What about ZU?
It seems like those who 'follow' the Goddess don't even know who she is. ZU states he is a player here upon only re-reading it. Jim only noticed when it shifted.
Jin: Any notice of any shift while you were Sleeping Beauty?
Post by: Tiruin on September 10, 2013, 11:27:52 pm
PFP"But I've to add. What do you see in every one of us? Is it a generality that we're all here, drawn before you--to pick? Or is there something still missing that you're undecided?
Tiruin addresses the Prince again because Horatio seems busy.
"Dear Prince, could you ask Horatio--I fear I have offended him--on who had announced in the first place, that there were rumors of interlopers within our midst? Or..who did it in the first place?
"I had only heard it from others and it comes across as rumor to me. Proven rumor as of now, but back then..well, vague rumor. The sort of rumor wherein the source is indistinct."
"What do you look for in a person? What did you see in us, that we were invited to your banquet?"
Post by: Jim Groovester on September 11, 2013, 03:00:42 am
Bolded part: Griffionday's role flavour was mostly relating to Jim, but there were no stated abilities relating directly to him, and I'm assuming ZU's is similar. This makes me think there's something hidden-mechanics-wise that links those three.
You mean Solifuge.
I think Jim's role is pretty integral to the game, so he might be able to come back after dying?
If you believe this then why are you willing to lynch my protection?
Either ZU is scum and I'm no safer than with him dead, or he's not and I get protection during the night and get to work my global dream magic in hopefully useful ways.
What the fuck are you asking.Two things.
And could you please do a better job of burying everything you want to say or ask inside incomprehensible RP? Because if you could, that'd be fantastic.
Blargh.
1. Expletives. You don't seem to be picking on the part of how to communicate without them.
2. Communication. It isn't 'burying' in so much that you want things straight out. Which is obviously why I'm using such--you need to learn a step in communication to learn that I'm saying exactly what is needed. Just that it has bits of communication in it.
When I have no idea what you're asking for whatever reason, I will say as much, and point out the reason.
Thanks for the rudeness >_>
'Tis my pleasure!
I'm divided on whether it is a fakeclaim or not--mostly everyone has claimed as of late and Jim hasn't said a confirmatory word on it all.
What haven't I confirmed?
I'm going to take a guess and assume you're talking about the forms everybody appeared as. They all check out. I have a eight forms on my list; seven of them were claimed by people alive. I assume the eighth belonged to NQT.
Jin: Any notice of any shift while you were Sleeping Beauty?
I'm not quite sure what you're asking but probably not.
Post by: Vector on September 11, 2013, 03:07:22 am
Post by: webadict on September 11, 2013, 06:55:00 am
Post by: zombie urist on September 11, 2013, 02:16:49 pm
Post by: Vector on September 11, 2013, 02:26:48 pm
Post by: Vector on September 11, 2013, 05:54:08 pm
...Do I have to repeat hitting the post button accidentally?PFP"But I've to add. What do you see in every one of us? Is it a generality that we're all here, drawn before you--to pick? Or is there something still missing that you're undecided?
Tiruin addresses the Prince again because Horatio seems busy.
"Dear Prince, could you ask Horatio--I fear I have offended him--on who had announced in the first place, that there were rumors of interlopers within our midst? Or..who did it in the first place?
"I had only heard it from others and it comes across as rumor to me. Proven rumor as of now, but back then..well, vague rumor. The sort of rumor wherein the source is indistinct."
"What do you look for in a person? What did you see in us, that we were invited to your banquet?"
The Prince takes you by the hand and leads you to a table in the Hall.
"Wait here a moment," he says. You fidget a little when he leaves, wondering what is in store for you. Then he returns with a plate full of smoked herring, flesh cooked to a delicate shade of red.
"Now," he says, spearing a piece of red herring on his fork. "As for these rumors that are upsetting you--open your mouth, there's a good girl."
"Mrph," you say as he stuffs it full of herring. It's delicious, but there seems to be rather a lot of it.
"I first heard of the rumors from a lady in waiting," he says, casually taking another piece of herring. He doesn't seem to be cutting it into more manageable bites. "I imagine that she heard it from another lady. As for Horatio, I do not know if he heard it or not. He said nothing. . . if all this came of the sleepspeaker, as you girls seem to have been saying, I don't think he holds court for superstition. A little wider, please. That's better."
"Mrphprerhperheh."
"As for what I see in you, my dear. . . right now, you seem to be full of herring."
He cracks a grin, sighing through his nose when you "forget" to laugh.
"If I am to be a wise king, then I am in need of a wise queen." He feeds you more herring. "A woman willing to bear children, of course, but able also to rule by my side--or in my stead. Someone of great discernment and strength, with a character beyond reproach. I do not intend to say that I expect perfection, but that if we are to be Law, then the two of us must be flawlessly moral."
He sighs. He sets the fork down.
"And if she were to love me, then that would be nice, too."
"Why did you feed me all that fish?" you ask him at long last, a little out of breath.
". . . Didn't you say you wanted some?"
Post by: Vector on September 11, 2013, 07:52:17 pm
"I was struck, in the moment as the sun went down, by our mutual youth. The executioner fumbled with his hood and I had to help him fasten it over his yellow hair. He was strong enough, but he could not have passed more than twenty summers. I wondered why someone--my elder brother, most likely--had chosen this man, and how old they had been. Besides the two of us and the guards, the priestess looked very small.
"'Prince Sigfred,' she said, 'Won't you bring the wood chips from the other girl's room, and burn them?'
"'If we perform a pagan ritual,' I told her, 'it will be very hard to bury you. We would be transgressing the law of Mother Death.'
"'But I am soon to die,' she said.
"Horatio fetched the brass bowl and the executioner laid her onto the stone slab face-down, with her head and shoulders hanging off the edge. They burned the wood chips below her face so she could smell the smoke, as she ordered, and passed the blade of the axe through.
"'Your last words?'
"'Let E represent the set of myself. Then the complement Ec is all that is not myself. I ask my Goddess that as E collapses to the empty set its contents become a subset of Ec--oh hang it, I'm not very good at funerals.'
"'Take your time,' I said. From the corner of my eye I could see Horatio leaving.
"She shivered.
"'I am myself on the face of it and seen from behind I am still myself,' she said. 'And when I die I will still be remembered as nothing but my own self. I am already as I shall be when dead and when dead I will still live. And as I and all of you straddle the bridge between life and death I assert that this moment will not change me. Even an ass could see it. Quod Erat Sanctificatum.'
"'In the name of the Land I return you to the land,' said the axeman.
"The axe came down. Blood sprayed across my face. Her bald head bounced and rolled in the dust.
"I heard screams and thought I was dreaming. I had told the girls not to watch; but a moment later Horatio stumbled out of the castle, carrying a corpse.
"'Sigfred," he said, and then he must have seen the body or the blood on my face, because he blanched and averted his eyes. 'Oh, Goddess.'
"'Which one?' I said.
"'Any.' He set the body down. 'Look here, she's--I don't know what to say. She fell down when the axe dropped. The girls are beside themselves.'
"It was the girl the acolytes had followed here.
"'Is she dead?' said Horatio. 'Or is she just dreaming?'
You are zombie urist, AKA Hypatia.
You have followed your Goddess here, she the all-seeing wonder. You aren't sure what would happen if she were hurt. Something terrible. Therefore, for her own good, to protect her in her every sleeping moment, you followed her to this place where bread is plentiful but unblessed.
She seems safe and is enjoying the presence of the Prince. You pass your hand over her bread in blessing, bowing your head, and uttering your prayer:
"Let B be a loaf of bread unblessed and bring to it, O Goddess, the full generosity of your blessing you do not even know, b(B), that it may be canonically embedded into your stomach and bring you sustenance, to better act on the set of all mortal souls through the morphism of your Gentle Rationality forevermore. Amen."
The Prince looks at you and says:
"Are you fond of Euclid, Sister?"
"Almost as much as I am of the Goddess, though if it please you sir, I cannot read and have only heard of his demonstrations as provided by wandering mathematicians. I am especially fond of Pons Arsinorum but the theorem by Thales also has a certain charm when backed with a lyre--"
"Wait here," he says, and leaves. You bless the Goddess's water, the bench she is sitting on, her countenance (that it may be free of spots) and her bowels (that your blessings not give her indigestion) while you wait there.
Soon enough he returns with a most marvelous book, with diagrams drawn more cleanly than you have ever seen before, and in a gentle, stumbling way he transforms the ancient letters into words you understand. You and the Goddess sit there in sweet contemplation for hours, and at the end of the night, in your round of blessings, you include the Prince.
You are town. You win when all threats to the Prince are gone.
You may watch over and bless one person per night to keep them from harm.
Please send in your night actions as soon as you can. Night end is scheduled for Friday at 12:00 noon (-8GMT).
In case you didn't read the flavor: JimGroovester is also dead.
Post by: Vector on September 12, 2013, 08:43:16 pm
Post by: Vector on September 16, 2013, 09:45:44 am
Thank you so much for your patience. You've been real troupers.
Post by: Vector on September 20, 2013, 02:15:59 am
"We had laid the sleeping goddess on a stone bier, but she was gone. I found her in the kitchens, amid a foul stench, poking through the pantry.
"'There's nothing to eat,' she said. It was true. Every scrap of food had rotted.
"On my way to rouse some hunters and errandboys I stopped through the great hall and--someone had--she"
The Prince looks down at the bar before him as though he has never seen it before, smoothing it with fluttering hands. He inhales and cannot rest his eyes on anything, not the barrels heavy with wine, not the little flower-vase Vektor keeps on a high shelf, not the barkeep himself.
At long last, he gives up mastery of himself, buries his face in his hands and sobs. Vektor makes a vague effort at patting his shoulder, but when he cries harder and his nose starts running, the barkeep heads for the back room instead. Mischka is curled on the bequilted bed there, paws tucked primly beneath her bulk, snoring. She is grumpy and tries to claw at his hands when he picks her up, but her strength isn't in it.
"Now what's this?" he says. "Even old animals like us have duties."
Aureliusz Vektor lugs her out and offers her to the Prince, who accepts her clumsily and tries to wipe his damp face in her fur. He is mumbling to the cat now, and Vektor can only make out two words:
"Bone" and "maggots."
You are griffinpup the Balalaika Player.
You came to the Prince's castle following a troupe of dancing girls. They painted the floor with their pretty steps and lithe shadows, you strummed your balalaika, the audience tossed money at their feet, and the Prince came to you directly with a handful of flowers and a bag of coin. This was unusual in your country, where it was assumed that the dancers would pay the player, but he came forward in person, squinting a little at your shawls and layered skirts.
"Magnificent," he said. You were not sure from the tone if he was present or elsewhere, but he looked again and said: "I--We are most grateful for your performance, and the distance you have traveled."
"What are you thinking about?" you asked him, after he had been standing there for a moment too long.
"Oh. . ." He shook his head. "Fare thee well."
Not a day or two later he asked you to sing for him privately. You tuned your instrument, hands trembling, and he stared down at you with a faintly forlorn expression when your pegs squeaked. The sunlight from the window opened a panel on the floor, in which you posed your stool and began, slowly at first, to play. It was a marvel that you made no mistakes, as you were busy watching the minute movements of his face, the betrayals of expression, waiting for the moment when his attention would wander. . . but it never did.
Not a day or two later he officially opened his search for a wife.
You are town. You win when all threats to the Prince are gone.
During the night you may strum chords ("none"), or you may
Play a love song (no NKs go through)
Play a warrior's song (no protects or roleblocks go through)
Play a seer's song (all inspections go through)
Each song may only be played once. You wouldn't want to wear out your audience!
For those who dislike reading flavortext: Jim Groovester is back in play.
Oh my god, you guys don't even want to know what's happened this week. So far two people have died, I've moved in, had my first day of work, and written more than 20 pages of documents in my spare time. So, sorry to keep you waiting. I hope today's totally radical and awesome for everyone.
Post by: zombie urist on September 20, 2013, 02:56:14 am
Post by: Lenglon on September 20, 2013, 03:38:51 am
Web: Why did you visit Sheep last night?
Post by: Toaster on September 20, 2013, 08:46:10 am
I am Toaster the Rose, and I've claimed my flavor.
As for my role, I can give people roses at night. This resets a used N-shot at random (essentially, they are motivated because a pretty rose makes them more likely to get *looks at princess amendment* uh... a night of unbridled passion. I cannot target the same player more than twice.
N1 I gave it to GriffionDay because I thought he was most likely to be town.
N2 I gave it to Web. I had a fairly town read on him at that point.
N3 I did Web again, mostly because I was rapidly losing the thread of the game and played off the prior thought, which hadn't really changed.
Jim, where did you go last night?
Post by: webadict on September 20, 2013, 01:56:59 pm
"I.. I... Um, Lady Web, I... I decided to follow you last night, and, um... I saw you go to Lady sheep's room. Why did you do that?"Oddly enough... I didn't. I actually targeted Toaster. Somehow, I ended up hitting Sheep instead. I'm severely confused and tired right now, so you'll have to excuse me, but I honestly have no clue what happened.
Web: Why did you visit Sheep last night?
Post by: Toaster on September 20, 2013, 03:00:37 pm
Post by: webadict on September 20, 2013, 03:22:20 pm
Still not claiming, Web?Is it that time again?
Post by: Jim Groovester on September 20, 2013, 03:38:41 pm
Jim, where did you go last night?
I'll tell you all about it.
After webadict claims.
Post by: webadict on September 20, 2013, 04:53:32 pm
I dunno, man, with that attitude...Jim, where did you go last night?
I'll tell you all about it.
After webadict claims.
Post by: Leafsnail on September 20, 2013, 05:50:10 pm
N1 I gave it to GriffionDay because I thought he was most likely to be town.
Okay, I just wanted to be sure.Really?
That idea is silly and ineffective. Please refrain from doing it ever again, since at best, it gets nothing useful and at worst, it's a scum move. (PersonA didn't respond to a point I made so she is clearly scum etc.)
In any case, you spend a lot of time talking and practically no time drawing conclusions, as evidenced by your lack of vote on anyone. Who is scum? Why?
N2 I gave it to Web. I had a fairly town read on him at that point.Why?
Post by: Jim Groovester on September 20, 2013, 06:11:56 pm
I dunno, man, with that attitude...
Today's going to be short, I see.
Post by: webadict on September 20, 2013, 08:48:15 pm
lol, I'm so willing to do that, but it wouldn't really be constructive. Alright, alright, you win. I'm a roleblocker. I dance the night away. Night 1, I blocked Jim, N2 Leafsnail, N3 Toaster, but the reply said TheWetSheep, so I don't really know.I dunno, man, with that attitude...
Today's going to be short, I see.
Unfortunately, last Night I lost my powers, so now I can't dance.
Post by: Toaster on September 20, 2013, 09:00:06 pm
Leafsnail:
N1 I gave it to GriffionDay because I thought he was most likely to be town.Okay, I just wanted to be sure.Really?
That idea is silly and ineffective. Please refrain from doing it ever again, since at best, it gets nothing useful and at worst, it's a scum move. (PersonA didn't respond to a point I made so she is clearly scum etc.)
In any case, you spend a lot of time talking and practically no time drawing conclusions, as evidenced by your lack of vote on anyone. Who is scum? Why?N2 I gave it to Web. I had a fairly town read on him at that point.Why?
Yes, really. On Griff I read "bad town" (plus I really didn't care for the wagon running up on him) and didn't have a positive feeling on pretty much anyone else. Most people were more null than anything.
As for Web, I must correct myself (because I went and looked back at my PM to Vector. I often put down some reasoning in action submission PMs.) It was more I had a light town read of him and low to null to scummy read of everyone else. I think it was mostly a gut feeling.
Post by: Leafsnail on September 20, 2013, 09:00:51 pm
Post by: Leafsnail on September 20, 2013, 09:01:43 pm
Post by: Tiruin on September 20, 2013, 09:17:18 pm
...Ok. This is so weird >_>
Webadict is a dancer-ish dude who has cursed red slippers.
Leafsnail..ok this is darn weird. You're a double-voter who...what was your view on ZU especially since he was a protector.
Same goes for Toaster.
Also I find it strange that you merely lost your powers. Do you understand what I'm getting at?I don't. He's a dancer and said he could dance to the tune of the musician. Now that said musician is x_x, he can't..do whatever he can do.
What are you getting at LS?
Web:lol, I'm so willing to do that, but it wouldn't really be constructive. Alright, alright, you win. I'm a roleblocker. I dance the night away. Night 1, I blocked Jim, N2 Leafsnail, N3 Toaster, but the reply said TheWetSheep, so I don't really know.I dunno, man, with that attitude...
Today's going to be short, I see.
Unfortunately, last Night I lost my powers, so now I can't dance.
You withheld this information..why now?
Okay, six people left. Logical player counts assume three scum to start. With one down, that's two, which makes this MYLO. In other words, mass claim time.Toaster: Expound on the formatted part.
I am Toaster the Rose, and I've claimed my flavor.
As for my role, I can give people roses at night. This resets a used N-shot at random (essentially, they are motivated because a pretty rose makes them more likely to get *looks at princess amendment* uh... a night of unbridled passion. I cannot target the same player more than twice.
N1 I gave it to GriffionDay because I thought he was most likely to be town.
N2 I gave it to Web. I had a fairly town read on him at that point.
N3 I did Web again, mostly because I was rapidly losing the thread of the game and played off the prior thought, which hadn't really changed.
Next: Town read on Web..how? There's a webadict version of Web, and an Okami No Rei version of Web.
Differentiate the two please.
...why after webadict?Jim, where did you go last night?
I'll tell you all about it.
After webadict claims.
Also, now since he claimed--why did you withhold it in the first place?
Did you know what would happen if your followers get KO'd--like what just happened D3 end?
Why were you in that kitchen?
Prince Sigfred: "Where were you last night, and what did you do?
"Also, all this murder. Why are you walking around at night without a complementary guard?"
Lenglon - You're a lilly-girl, right? Just clarifying.
..."I.. I... Um, Lady Web, I... I decided to follow you last night, and, um... I saw you go to Lady sheep's room. Why did you do that?"Oddly enough... I didn't. I actually targeted Toaster. Somehow, I ended up hitting Sheep instead. I'm severely confused and tired right now, so you'll have to excuse me, but I honestly have no clue what happened.
Web: Why did you visit Sheep last night?
Ok how did you get the difference now, and not get it upon first read?
Also get well soon :<
Post by: Leafsnail on September 20, 2013, 09:50:10 pm
I don't. He's a dancer and said he could dance to the tune of the musician. Now that said musician is x_x, he can't..do whatever he can do.Why the hell are you answering this question? It's clearly not addressed to you, and you have no special insight into webadict's role.
What are you getting at LS?
Post by: Tiruin on September 20, 2013, 09:51:12 pm
I thought ZU was a mafia member.Strike one: Aggression.I don't. He's a dancer and said he could dance to the tune of the musician. Now that said musician is x_x, he can't..do whatever he can do.Why the hell are you answering this question? It's clearly not addressed to you, and you have no special insight into webadict's role.
What are you getting at LS?
I've been reading back, sir, and I'm only stating that which was stated.
I thought ZU was a mafia member.Explain.
Post by: Leafsnail on September 20, 2013, 09:52:44 pm
If you have problems with my reasons for voting ZU then state them rather than forcing me to pointlessly repost the same things again.
Post by: Leafsnail on September 20, 2013, 09:53:14 pm
Post by: Tiruin on September 20, 2013, 10:05:06 pm
You are defending webadict over a subject you should know nothing about. Why are you defending webadict?
If you have problems with my reasons for voting ZU then state them rather than forcing me to pointlessly repost the same things again.
As in, why are you attempting to sabotage what is obviously a line of questioning to someone else?Sabotage what? You're assuming too much from what I just said.
It was a declarative sentence--only wishing to give out details. How is that defending, when it was stated before? You're continuing on a tangent similar to such, so I put in what I saw, and was curious on that matter.
You're somehow defensive there, assuming I'm 'defending' someone, when you exactly put the true contradiction-that I have no idea what the context of his being is.
And you haven't answered my question on
Leafsnail..ok this is darn weird. You're a double-voter who...what was your view on ZU especially since he was a protector.
I thought ZU was a mafia member.Because I did ask for you to explain, didn't I?
You are not.
Post by: Leafsnail on September 20, 2013, 10:07:11 pm
Post by: Tiruin on September 20, 2013, 10:21:29 pm
Post by: Vector on September 20, 2013, 10:38:06 pm
VOTE COUNT (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DeumyOzKqgI)
Webberman - Lenglon, Jim Groovester
Leafsnail
Tiruin
Lenglon
Toaster - Tiruin
Jim Groovestar - Toaster
Not Voting: Leafsnail
Day End is scheduled for Tuesday at 7:00 PM (-8GMT). Three votes required for an initial extension to Thursday at 7:00 PM (-8 GMT).
Post by: Jim Groovester on September 20, 2013, 10:43:27 pm
More later tonight.
Post by: Tiruin on September 20, 2013, 10:44:51 pm
The Prince cannot be found in any of the common areas.I..err, think of where the best place the Prince could be right now and look there!
..Or check Horatio's bedroom.
Post by: webadict on September 20, 2013, 10:47:04 pm
Web: Why those targets?Jim because I felt like he was scum the first Night. I switched to Leafsnail the next Night because I was giving Jim a chance (He mentioned something about not being able to action, and I figured why not), and then he did his weird dream thing. I chose Toaster the last Night because I wasn't really sure what was happening in the game, and he seemed like a suitable target, but I'm almost positive Vector made a mistake on who I targeted, so whatever.
How exactly does your flavour reveal your role, webadict?I guess it seemed like an obvious role for me. Someone who dances would dance with someone at Night. Is that not obvious to you?
Also I find it strange that you merely lost your powers. Do you understand what I'm getting at?No? Am I supposed to?
Because it wasn't anything necessary to claim. Now seems like a good time to roleclaim.Web:lol, I'm so willing to do that, but it wouldn't really be constructive. Alright, alright, you win. I'm a roleblocker. I dance the night away. Night 1, I blocked Jim, N2 Leafsnail, N3 Toaster, but the reply said TheWetSheep, so I don't really know.I dunno, man, with that attitude...
Today's going to be short, I see.
Unfortunately, last Night I lost my powers, so now I can't dance.
You withheld this information..why now?
Post by: Toaster on September 20, 2013, 11:15:09 pm
Leafsnail..ok this is darn weird. You're a double-voter who...what was your view on ZU especially since he was a protector.
Same goes for Toaster.
My gut told me he was scum. I didn't have a logic-based target to go with instead, so gut won out.
Okay, six people left. Logical player counts assume three scum to start. With one down, that's two, which makes this MYLO. In other words, mass claim time.Toaster: Expound on the formatted part.
I am Toaster the Rose, and I've claimed my flavor.
As for my role, I can give people roses at night. This resets a used N-shot at random (essentially, they are motivated because a pretty rose makes them more likely to get *looks at princess amendment* uh... a night of unbridled passion. I cannot target the same player more than twice.
N1 I gave it to GriffionDay because I thought he was most likely to be town.
N2 I gave it to Web. I had a fairly town read on him at that point.
N3 I did Web again, mostly because I was rapidly losing the thread of the game and played off the prior thought, which hadn't really changed.
Next: Town read on Web..how? There's a webadict version of Web, and an Okami No Rei version of Web.
Differentiate the two please.
It's a joke, referring to me avoiding the verb form of a certain four letter word that start with F and rhymes with duck.
Web 1.0 is dead and flipped town. Web 2.0 is Okami-brand Web, and the one referred to in these statements. Any detail will require a reread after the very long night, because I've been super busy lately and much of the detail from this game is gone.
Post by: Jim Groovester on September 21, 2013, 01:40:22 am
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Some things of note from dead chat: TheWetSheep says he was in a chat with Leafsnail and webadict, which isn't a surprise to me since I got a chat with zombie urist midday through D3, and we theorized that Toaster and Lenglon also have a chat. Both him and webadict expressed suspicion of Leafsnail. He also says that in his flavor he was visited by two girls, one who distracted him, one who killed him, and without using weapons.
Griffionday suspects Toaster is lying because during N1 there is no mention of a rose in his flavor, and he reasons that because miscellaneous is higher than kill on the action resolution list, he should have received flavor of receiving the rose.
Also, (as best as I can tell) zombie urist was not aware of being redirected by notquitethere, i.e., in chat, he never mentioned going anywhere N1 besides to Lenglon. So there's either an unclaimed redirector out there who operates mechanically differently from NQT, NQT didn't actually redirect anybody and is either mistaken or lying, Vector screwed up, or wuba's lying.
VOTE COUNT (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DeumyOzKqgI)
This isn't classical music!
Jim, where did you go last night?
I died and went to dead chat. That's literally all that happened. I just got a PM stating I was (currently) dead and given the link to dead chat.
Then I woke up as the avatar of the Goddess of Order, filled with a sense of purpose to preserve, maintain, and enforce order. Beginning with this situation, that has long since spiraled completely out of control. According to my flavor, this will only happen when the elements in this group primarily responsible for causing this chaos are eliminated.
I've got a list of topics I can dream about at night, but now I know what their effects are, and it's the standard array of JoaT one-shots. The special bonus of being a waking deity that uses dreams to accomplish the effects of these powers is that they are unblockable.
My gut told me he was scum. I didn't have a logic-based target to go with instead, so gut won out.
Isn't it convenient that you just so happened to have a gut feeling on a potent town role.
...why after webadict?Jim, where did you go last night?
I'll tell you all about it.
After webadict claims.
Also, now since he claimed--why did you withhold it in the first place?
Did you know what would happen if your followers get KO'd--like what just happened D3 end?
Why were you in that kitchen?
Because he was the only person whose claim I didn't have yet.
Because I wanted to see if I could catch people in lies with the additional claims from people in dead chat. Because nobody expects
Nope.
Probably because I was hungry after dying/dreaming and coming back to life.
webadict, Leafsnail, TheWetSheep wants to know whether you lost your powers on his death. I'll be more general and ask what happened to you because of his death.
Post by: Tiruin on September 21, 2013, 01:54:43 am
O_o
This is so confusing.
Then I woke up as the avatar of the Goddess of Order, filled with a sense of purpose to preserve, maintain, and enforce order. Beginning with this situation, that has long since spiraled completely out of control. According to my flavor, this will only happen when the elements in this group primarily responsible for causing this chaos are eliminated.Whatnow? Who were they? I see plural.
Also..also..ALSO!
Tiruin:ToasterLeafsnail..ok this is darn weird. You're a double-voter who...what was your view on ZU especially since he was a protector.
Same goes for Toaster.
My gut told me he was scum. I didn't have a logic-based target to go with instead, so gut won out.
Your gut should have a reason. What is your assumption back then?
..And really. No logic?
Since that time? Like, D3?!
Some things of note from dead chat: TheWetSheep says he was in a chat with Leafsnail and webadict, which isn't a surprise to me since I got a chat with zombie urist midday through D3, and we theorized that Toaster and Lenglon also have a chat. Both him and webadict expressed suspicion of Leafsnail. He also says that in his flavor he was visited by two girls, one who distracted him, one who killed him, and without using weapons.Interesting.
I didn't visit anyone or..did anything past the last nights. However, on the distraction--did TWS expound on anything? Like, specifics in flavor?
Also I really love that formatting.
. . .I don't necessarily kill attackers, by the way. There's a synonym for that but my english is so warped around Histology that I'm fuzzy about it-PFP.
Post by: Lenglon on September 21, 2013, 03:47:14 am
"You see, I think you're our missing inspector."
"Considering what Lady Sheep was able to do, I thought that the special ability to make sure that inspects would work was quite noteworthy. It... I didn't make sense to me, from my sense of balance, of order in society, that someone amoung us would have an ability like that and yet the only person capable of benefiting from it wouldn't be directly aligned with us. Her other skills seemed like they would benefit more than one of us, so I thought that the inspection boosting one would apply to more than one of us as well."
"Then, when you were telling us about yourself, I noticed a couple very important things. First, that what you described yourself as being capable of was a very... protective... claim, and yet it didn't have the drawbacks such a role normally has, that of hurting the innocent along with the guilty. also, when you were speaking of yourself, of your experiences, it seemed to me that you would likely have become wise to the world, and skilled at understanding both the light and the darkness in people's hearts. That matches up quite well with the skills of an inspector."
"But now, why am I saying this? I'm saying it because I believe that we are at MYLO, and that a mistake here, in this critical time, could cost us all. I think that the time has come for you to admit to us what you are really able to do, and to tell us who amoung us is truly innocent. Lady Jim has said that her new skillset includes the ability to protect someone as a 1-shot, and toaster has said that she can reset one-shots over and over again. Do not be afraid anymore, and tell us what you've learned over these last several days. please?"
Tiruin: I think you have an inspect, and lied earlier to protect yourself. It is now MYLO, claim.
Post by: Tiruin on September 21, 2013, 04:14:53 am
"Um, Tiruin? I... I think now would be a good time for you to drop your facade. I... I've kinda suspected that you lied to us all about what you can do, ever since you said it. I didn't want to say anything about it until now though, because if I'm right, you are actually as defenseless as the rest of us, but that you have a very important talent that we sorely need right now."1. I don't have an inspect.
"You see, I think you're our missing inspector."
"Considering what Lady Sheep was able to do, I thought that the special ability to make sure that inspects would work was quite noteworthy. It... I didn't make sense to me, from my sense of balance, of order in society, that someone amoung us would have an ability like that and yet the only person capable of benefiting from it wouldn't be directly aligned with us. Her other skills seemed like they would benefit more than one of us, so I thought that the inspection boosting one would apply to more than one of us as well."
"Then, when you were telling us about yourself, I noticed a couple very important things. First, that what you described yourself as being capable of was a very... protective... claim, and yet it didn't have the drawbacks such a role normally has, that of hurting the innocent along with the guilty. also, when you were speaking of yourself, of your experiences, it seemed to me that you would likely have become wise to the world, and skilled at understanding both the light and the darkness in people's hearts. That matches up quite well with the skills of an inspector."
"But now, why am I saying this? I'm saying it because I believe that we are at MYLO, and that a mistake here, in this critical time, could cost us all. I think that the time has come for you to admit to us what you are really able to do, and to tell us who amoung us is truly innocent. Lady Jim has said that her new skillset includes the ability to protect someone as a 1-shot, and toaster has said that she can reset one-shots over and over again. Do not be afraid anymore, and tell us what you've learned over these last several days. please?"
Tiruin: I think you have an inspect, and lied earlier to protect yourself. It is now MYLO, claim.
2. I cannot directly claim.
3. Either Jim and/or Web has already found out my role.
4. I am not lying-I cannot lie.
5. I really did nothing these past days. Last night, I visited the White Swan's grave, and saw the Prince and Horatio..
6. ..Why do you think I've an inspect?
7. How was me describing myself being a...very protective claim? It does have such drawbacks, but it is in misinterpretation that said drawbacks appear-I can't kill, but may survive any attack on my person. Ever.
8. What drawbacks were you seeing or talking about?
9. Who I believe is truly innocent:
> Jin. Pretty weird role, but pretty awesome to say bluntly. The note that she..was 'dead'-ish for a whole night (or..just at dusk?) gives note there.
Then those I believe are innocent-ish:
> You. You inspect people by creepily stalking them. :S Lillies are scary, but you've..somehow found people doing x and y and z, so it matches up--what nudges my innocence-ity is on how specific those followings were. You did mention that I was one of your choices-what made you not follow me?
> Leafsnail. I'm hovering on this decision as the only thing that puts him in the innocent category was Vector's note. The note on a conventional rule. The rule being mafia outnumbering town-asked by TWS, if I'm not mistaken-would be called 'rolefishing'. I mean, his answers have been flippy, and his usage of a double vote..irks me really on the wrong side as well as his reasoning behind most of them.
So I'm ruling out you dudes in order of suspiciosity.
Tiruin looks at you and sighs. "This'll be a long story. I had no fear from before, nor did I have any fear-it is just..that I cannot claim. I really, really really really really cannot.
"Really."
This is what happened last night - I am unsure if anyone targeted me, but I had no indication of anyone doing such (also, it seems that you can take night actions despite you having a passive ability--visiting the grave was my bolded action :P)
So anyway, the two seemed to be in..silent repose. Not looking at each other, or anything-just staring onwards shoulder to shoulder. (I hid in the rose-bushes nearby. It was a cool evening with a nice crescent moon out.)
Cue me going all happy and being happy at the Prince and Horatio and having an inner-squee along with lotsa question questions around, that I just sat there and looked on.
It was darn beautiful. I analyzed quite..everything on them. From how their poise was, down to their breathing-it was tranquil, and peaceful. Something reminding me of how kingdoms were ruled--by a steady and wondrous hand.
But then stuff happened. As they were both dressed in black-I couldn't tell who did what-they spoke.
One of them (or it was like a one says, other replies..unsure) said to come inside, and then said to go to sleep.
So..it ends with me watching them head off, and then me paying my respects to the Swan's grave with my own song..which I really love how Vector wrote. It was silly, and has no connection to anything.
"...So that's it, I guess."
Jim: Did you examine the kitchen before this day start?
Post by: Tiruin on September 21, 2013, 04:30:37 am
Are you, in anyway connected to Leafsnail?As for my role, I can give people roses at night. This resets a used N-shot at random (essentially, they are motivated because a pretty rose makes them more likely to get *looks at princess amendment* uh... a night of unbridled passion. I cannot target the same player more than twice.
It's a joke, referring to me avoiding the verb form of a certain four letter word that start with F and rhymes with duck.
..Because it would be pretty weird connecting..err 'THAT' to resetting an action.
...
Oh dear gods my mind >_<
Post by: Lenglon on September 21, 2013, 04:40:42 am
Tiruin: I thought you had claimed Paranoid Gun Owner, a role that normally attacks everyone who visits them including doctors and cops. you then said that you didn't have that drawback. Claiming that protects yourself from being targeted for kills, making you likely to live to the final days. I thought you did that because you are our missing inspector. apparently you aren't.
Post by: Tiruin on September 21, 2013, 04:44:35 am
Post by: Tiruin on September 21, 2013, 04:46:31 am
...We've a missing inspector?And yes, talented in self-defense that I'm able to survive attacks. I am not warning anyone off. The reason I goaded before was in order to draw them to attack me.
I can survive nightkills against me, is what I'm saying.
Post by: Lenglon on September 21, 2013, 04:47:16 am
...We've a missing inspector?
"Considering what Lady Sheep was able to do, I thought that the special ability to make sure that inspects would work was quite noteworthy. It... I didn't make sense to me, from my sense of balance, of order in society, that someone amoung us would have an ability like that and yet the only person capable of benefiting from it wouldn't be directly aligned with us. Her other skills seemed like they would benefit more than one of us, so I thought that the inspection boosting one would apply to more than one of us as well."
Post by: Tiruin on September 21, 2013, 04:52:06 am
But yeah, the abilities seem muchly..specific, huh. Because from memory, everyone else has claimed everything but inspecting.
Jim: What did TWS do last night?
Post by: Jim Groovester on September 21, 2013, 05:33:43 am
Then I woke up as the avatar of the Goddess of Order, filled with a sense of purpose to preserve, maintain, and enforce order. Beginning with this situation, that has long since spiraled completely out of control. According to my flavor, this will only happen when the elements in this group primarily responsible for causing this chaos are eliminated.Whatnow? Who were they? I see plural.
The threats to the Prince.
Jim: Did you examine the kitchen before this day start?
No.
I didn't visit anyone or..did anything past the last nights. However, on the distraction--did TWS expound on anything? Like, specifics in flavor?
He also mentioned that the girls came to listen to him, before killing. That's it though.
Jim: What did TWS do last night?
He did nothing.
Leafsnail, how come you didn't claim being blocked when you claimed your N2 flavor (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4578994#msg4578994)?
Post by: Tiruin on September 21, 2013, 10:35:56 am
Ok, I may be confusing stuff. I linked the bolded portion to the purple portion as I can't see where the bolded portion..connects to, hence my question.Then I woke up as the avatar of the Goddess of Order, filled with a sense of purpose to preserve, maintain, and enforce order. Beginning with this situation, that has long since spiraled completely out of control. According to my flavor, this will only happen when the elements in this group primarily responsible for causing this chaos are eliminated.Whatnow? Who were they? I see plural.
The threats to the Prince.
Now for the big question. What kinds of threats exist? Threats to his perceived heir, maybe? We all know the Prince lives afterwards.
..Come to think of it, I'm..guessing that the town wincon is for them to survive and beat any threat out? It's pretty confusing given this situation, and the fact that the Prince is alive.
Past flavor doesn't show anything in regard to that. Spoilage of food, uncertain if wealth is stolen..perhaps a threat to the Prince's reputation? Or his..sanity? He can't perfectly know if those in the cohort are all gon-
..If we take everything in context and think out of the box-how many even know how many threats exist in game? I heard that we only gathered that the threats mentioned in OP was due to general terms 'smart, kind, bold...' people. We don't even know who did what (I did get info that these are..rumors >_> is all)...And the only fact I believe is that there would be flavor evidence that after lynching the last 2 there would be peace.
Seems like a long shot, but that's the only solution there is that I can see. Aaaand I managed to mess up this formatting even more. What do you think about it, Jim? You've got a very interesting role. And..as someone upholding order, you must have some more distinct thoughts on it.
On that note: Webadict: The forces of Good should conspire together. If you were on that force, what would you've done in the face of a roleclaim?
Quote
And his reason?Jim: What did TWS do last night?
He did nothing.
...Can you try examining it? Or rather, you started in a kitchen and didn't know of anything beforehand?Jim: Did you examine the kitchen before this day start?
No.
Also of note: We can try basically anything in this scenario, but anything doesn't directly equal a piece of the puzzle. I had to ask Vector that. Woo~
On another note: what's new, Jim? Claim?
Post by: webadict on September 21, 2013, 11:57:43 am
On that note: Webadict: The forces of Good should conspire together. If you were on that force, what would you've done in the face of a roleclaim?Number one, you're a duck. I never got any information from this, but it's the only remaining role, and since you can't claim, I'm assuming there's some odd spell or whatever on you. Quack quack, turn back. Maybe you can't say you're a duck or you'll turn back into one because you actually wanted to be a real bo...girl. I don't know.
Number two, that's a lot of conjunctives and conditionals. Unless there's a different side of Good than the Town I don't know about, I have no deviation on my roleclaiming... because, you know, I'm Town. Am I missing something?
Post by: Tiruin on September 21, 2013, 12:33:34 pm
Tell that to the flower girls ::) and no I was pointing on Jim regarding that matter--the one where he said Griffion's search, and then pointed at me. You were right in guessing what I was trying to say back then when I said the precluding context on my ability however.On that note: Webadict: The forces of Good should conspire together. If you were on that force, what would you've done in the face of a roleclaim?Number one, you're a duck. I never got any information from this, but it's the only remaining role, and since you can't claim, I'm assuming there's some odd spell or whatever on you. Quack quack, turn back. Maybe you can't say you're a duck or you'll turn back into one because you actually wanted to be a real bo...girl. I don't know.
Why're you answering this even when it wasn't asked in the first place?
Number two, that's a lot of conjunctives and conditionals. Unless there's a different side of Good than the Town I don't know about, I have no deviation on my roleclaiming... because, you know, I'm Town. Am I missing something?Well, there are worse contenders (I be looking at you, Leafsnail who can't format well :I) but the reasoning stands. Jim saw someone distract someone, and afterwards the latter someone die because someone else visited.
Unless (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4622392#msg4622392) funny stuff happened, Toaster used an ability to switch people visiting him, to people visiting TWS and vice versa.
..However, the action order says otherwise.
Quote
Copy...Vector: What is 'Bus' here meaning? Blocks go before redirects..
Hide
Bus
Block
Redirect
Misc. Misdirect
Protect
Inspect
Miscellaneous
Kill
Recruit
Resurrect
Toaster Were you connected to TWS in any way?
Post by: Leafsnail on September 21, 2013, 06:44:07 pm
I guess it seemed like an obvious role for me. Someone who dances would dance with someone at Night. Is that not obvious to you?Right, you mean obvious to the people you'd already targetted, fair enough.
No? Am I supposed to?I guess it's possible that this doesn't apply to you, but I didn't merely lose my power. I'm now so depressed that my vote counts for -1 (this isn't too different from normal voting other than the fact that I'll have to watch for scum votejumping). Considering that we are both cursed in a similar manner I thought you'd have a "worse than vanilla" role now too.
webadict, Leafsnail, TheWetSheep wants to know whether you lost your powers on his death. I'll be more general and ask what happened to you because of his death.I heard the music stop, and then screaming. I tried to get up, but found I am now clumsy again due to my iron shoes. I seemed to then have something of an epiphany:
- I realized that more than anything else I wanted to see my feet, to see if they're doing ok
- That my lover attached these shoes to my feet to teach me a lesson about being overly secretive, rather than just for cheating
- That these two things were analogous and this is meant to be a lesson for me
- I then had an analogous worry about whether I would ever see that lover again, and how she was doing
This seemed vaguely thematically important but I'm not sure of the meaning. Anyway, the upshot is that I'm broody now and my vote counts for -1.
Leafsnail, how come you didn't claim being blocked when you claimed your N2 flavor (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4578994#msg4578994)?Nothing about my N2 flavour suggested that I had been blocked, probably due to the fact that I have no night action. It's possible that the dancing theme in my dream was due to webadict, though.
Post by: Leafsnail on September 21, 2013, 07:05:50 pm
I also find Toaster's claimed role highly suspect. I have two reasons, in addition to the oddity of Gday apparently not receiving a rose:
1. His choice of targets. I don't really buy his "dumb town" read on Gday at all. I also don't see any evidence that he thought webadict was town, making his double-targetting of him odd. Further, on night three webadict hadn't claimed, while TWS had claimed a one-shot. Why would Toaster target someone blindly rather than actually restore a 1-shot ability?
His choice of targets is also highly convenient - once on a guy who died and would be unable to comment, twice on someone who's probably a mafia member.
2. His actual role. There appear to be only three players with one-shots in the entire game. It seems bizarre that Vector would give someone a role that only works on a quarter of the other players in a game.
I think Toaster's claimed role is entirely fabricated, and he actually made the kill last night.
Jim: Can you still post in/read the deadchat?
Post by: Jim Groovester on September 21, 2013, 07:14:19 pm
And his reason?
He wanted more information about the nightkill. He also thought I'd be back from the dead and he wanted to save his power to protect me when I got back.
...Can you try examining it? Or rather, you started in a kitchen and didn't know of anything beforehand?Jim: Did you examine the kitchen before this day start?
No.
You are in the kitchen. Exits are to the north and east.
> EXAMINE KITCHEN
It's a kitchen.
> _
What do you think about it, Jim?
Can you tell me what specific parts of your rambling you want me to address?
On another note: what's new, Jim? Claim?
What are you talking about?
I swear, half this game is me answering your questions and the other half is me not knowing what the hell you're talking about at any given moment.
Jim: Can you still post in/read the deadchat?
Yes.
Leafsnail, how come you didn't claim being blocked when you claimed your N2 flavor (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4578994#msg4578994)?Nothing about my N2 flavour suggested that I had been blocked, probably due to the fact that I have no night action. It's possible that the dancing theme in my dream was due to webadict, though.
What about TheWetSheep claiming one of the girls who visited him distracted him, even though he didn't use his action?
This seems like inconsistent operation of wubadub's power. Or he's lying.
If your vote counted positively who would you vote with it?
wobbledobble, you didn't answer my question:
webadict, Leafsnail, TheWetSheep wants to know whether you lost your powers on his death. I'll be more general and ask what happened to you because of his death.
Toaster, Lenglon, TheWetSheep requests you confirm that you have a private chat.
Post by: Toaster on September 21, 2013, 11:10:29 pm
Also I have no connection with TWS.
Post by: webadict on September 22, 2013, 01:15:00 am
You said that one of Jim and I had your role information. Given that I was never given any via PM and the way you had phrased the statement, I can either assume that Jim had gotten the PM or you are a duck and can't admit it, since that was my information on the role.Tell that to the flower girls ::) and no I was pointing on Jim regarding that matter--the one where he said Griffion's search, and then pointed at me. You were right in guessing what I was trying to say back then when I said the precluding context on my ability however.On that note: Webadict: The forces of Good should conspire together. If you were on that force, what would you've done in the face of a roleclaim?Number one, you're a duck. I never got any information from this, but it's the only remaining role, and since you can't claim, I'm assuming there's some odd spell or whatever on you. Quack quack, turn back. Maybe you can't say you're a duck or you'll turn back into one because you actually wanted to be a real bo...girl. I don't know.
Why're you answering this even when it wasn't asked in the first place?Number two, that's a lot of conjunctives and conditionals. Unless there's a different side of Good than the Town I don't know about, I have no deviation on my roleclaiming... because, you know, I'm Town. Am I missing something?Well, there are worse contenders (I be looking at you, Leafsnail who can't format well :I) but the reasoning stands. Jim saw someone distract someone, and afterwards the latter someone die because someone else visited.
Unless (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4622392#msg4622392) funny stuff happened, Toaster used an ability to switch people visiting him, to people visiting TWS and vice versa.
..However, the action order says otherwise.QuoteCopy...Vector: What is 'Bus' here meaning? Blocks go before redirects..
Hide
Bus
Block
Redirect
Misc. Misdirect
Protect
Inspect
Miscellaneous
Kill
Recruit
Resurrect
Toaster Were you connected to TWS in any way?
The point is, you're a duck. You said you can't lie about your role, and you haven't said you aren't a duck.
Bus is the switching of two targets, so that all actions are switched on their owners.
But, that definitely didn't happen, because I wouldn't've gotten the name of Sheep. I would've been told it was Toaster. Because I targeted Toaster.
I'm almost entirely sure webadict is scum. For his claim to be true there'd have to be a mafia redirector (the second redirector in this game, but a mechanically different one) who for some reason didn't act on nights one or two, but decided to redirect webadict to the mafiakill target on night three. I think what actually happened is that webadict blocked TWS to make sure that he didn't use his "block all nightkills" ability.What. No, in order for what happened to be correct, there'd have to be a Mafia Bus Driver, and/or Vector would've needed to give the wrong names. I'm 100% sure Vector screwed up, though, because no matter what, I shouldn't've been given the wrong names.
I also find Toaster's claimed role highly suspect. I have two reasons, in addition to the oddity of Gday apparently not receiving a rose:
1. His choice of targets. I don't really buy his "dumb town" read on Gday at all. I also don't see any evidence that he thought webadict was town, making his double-targetting of him odd. Further, on night three webadict hadn't claimed, while TWS had claimed a one-shot. Why would Toaster target someone blindly rather than actually restore a 1-shot ability?
His choice of targets is also highly convenient - once on a guy who died and would be unable to comment, twice on someone who's probably a mafia member.
2. His actual role. There appear to be only three players with one-shots in the entire game. It seems bizarre that Vector would give someone a role that only works on a quarter of the other players in a game.
I think Toaster's claimed role is entirely fabricated, and he actually made the kill last night.
Jim: Can you still post in/read the deadchat?
And Jim, I already answered the question.
I'm incredibly tired from all my dancing, so I don't have a block anymore.lol, I'm so willing to do that, but it wouldn't really be constructive. Alright, alright, you win. I'm a roleblocker. I dance the night away. Night 1, I blocked Jim, N2 Leafsnail, N3 Toaster, but the reply said TheWetSheep, so I don't really know.I dunno, man, with that attitude...
Today's going to be short, I see.
Unfortunately, last Night I lost my powers, so now I can't dance.
Post by: Tiruin on September 22, 2013, 06:46:14 pm
Post by: Leafsnail on September 22, 2013, 06:57:00 pm
What about TheWetSheep claiming one of the girls who visited him distracted him, even though he didn't use his action?It may be that the dream you gave me confused my perception of what was happening that night. Or that the "distraction" flavour kicked in due to the fact that there was a reason for him to be distracted (ie he was being killed).
This seems like inconsistent operation of wubadub's power. Or he's lying.
If your vote counted positively who would you vote with it?
I would vote webadict.
Also, can you ask TWS if the distracting girl did any dancing?
What. No, in order for what happened to be correct, there'd have to be a Mafia Bus Driver, and/or Vector would've needed to give the wrong names. I'm 100% sure Vector screwed up, though, because no matter what, I shouldn't've been given the wrong names.You've contacted her, right? Because considering Lenglon is claiming to have tracked you to TWS and Jim is saying TWS saw someone distracting him it would have to be a collosal fuckup from Vector for this to be true, or some kind of bizarre mafia conspiracy where they predicted a mod error.
Post by: Tiruin on September 22, 2013, 07:03:46 pm
Post by: Toaster on September 22, 2013, 08:50:19 pm
webadict I <-> Ottofar
zombie urist -> Jim Groovester <- Solifuge
Griffionday -> Tiruin
Toaster -> NQT <- Lenglon
Leafsnail -> TWS <- webadict II
Updated again. I'm not sure this is actually useful.
Tiruin:
[Tiruin:ToasterLeafsnail..ok this is darn weird. You're a double-voter who...what was your view on ZU especially since he was a protector.
Same goes for Toaster.
My gut told me he was scum. I didn't have a logic-based target to go with instead, so gut won out.
Your gut should have a reason. What is your assumption back then?
..And really. No logic?
Since that time? Like, D3?!
Yeeeep. I intended to go back and study him on a logical basis, but frankly I got slack about it, and that week was really busy IRL.
Are you, in anyway connected to Leafsnail?
..Because it would be pretty weird connecting..err 'THAT' to resetting an action.
...
Oh dear gods my mind >_<
Oh no, I just give them a rose to... make them more likely to reproduce. I don't actually do anything physically exciting to them. And no, no connection to Leafsnail.
Toaster[/b] Were you connected to TWS in any way?
Also no.
Almost all the flavor mentions of a player in my PMs are mechanical. Role PM didn't mention other players at all. N1 mentioned Griff (targeted) and Web1 (me suggesting to Horatio that we put her in the rose garden). N2 mentioned Web (target) and Jim (dream). N3 I got another reference to the recently lynched (ZU, flavor comment on death) and Wuba again (target again.) That's it.
Also, no, I don't have any redirection ability at all. Just the ability reset.
Web:
What. No, in order for what happened to be correct, there'd have to be a Mafia Bus Driver, and/or Vector would've needed to give the wrong names. I'm 100% sure Vector screwed up, though, because no matter what, I shouldn't've been given the wrong names.You've contacted her, right? Because considering Lenglon is claiming to have tracked you to TWS and Jim is saying TWS saw someone distracting him it would have to be a collosal fuckup from Vector for this to be true, or some kind of bizarre mafia conspiracy where they predicted a mod error.
I would like to know the answer to this question as well.
Post by: Jim Groovester on September 22, 2013, 09:14:18 pm
Jim: What did NQT do on the day[night] he died?
I included it in the matrix of role claims I threw up a little while ago. NQT redirected ZU to griffinpup on N1, and Jim Groovester to Leafsnail on N2.
Also, can you ask TWS if the distracting girl did any dancing?
TWS says there's no mention in the flavor of how the girl did the distracting.
Anyways, I think our scum are Toaster and webadict. Toaster's claim has some holes, webadict's claim has a lot of holes.
Lenglon and Tiruin, we need to be unanimous in a decision because if we're not last minute vote shenanigans can screw us over. I vote webadict since there's more evidence against him (Vector made a mistake yeah right) than Toaster.
Post by: Lenglon on September 22, 2013, 10:10:52 pm
I think Web has to be one of the killers.
I think she was trapped, and felt like she had little to no choice left, when she found out I had chosen to follow her last night. and so she admitted she was the one who distracted Sheep.
I'm a little confused still, because I don't understand why she claimed to have been targeting Toaster. I... I can't figure out her agenda.
But I don't have much else to go on.
Yesterday she was insisted on hiding what she could do, and I still don't understand why.
Last night she distracted the only person who could have prevented the nightkill.
and today, particularly damning, she said nothing at all about another person visiting sheep with her, or finding sheep's body, or anything at all about her visit beyond the fact that it happened, something that we already knew.
If she was really with us, I'm sure she'd have more to share.
I'm pretty sure she has to have been in on it. or at least a part of it.
Still...
I still don't understand what her plan was, and I'm still worried. If she is telling the truth, and she was simply redirected last night, then...
are we making a mistake here? I don't have a feel for who her partner might have been.
um, Lady Jim, I think Lady Web is probably guilty here, but I'm not sure if we should wait another night or not.
I mean, horrible as it may sound, if we...
if we let them remove one more of us, then we'll be less likely to mess up and risk giving them free reign.
but still...
I...
I don't know what to do"
Jim: I think Web is scum, and am currently voting her.
Web: why did you refuse to claim yesterday?
Web: why have you not claimed any flavor from last night?
Web: why did you plan to block Toaster?
Jim: It is MYLO. Should we lynch at MYLO?
Post by: Jim Groovester on September 22, 2013, 10:23:17 pm
And we already have a pretty good idea of who the scumteam is. No real need to wait around when that's the case.
Post by: Lenglon on September 22, 2013, 10:31:29 pm
Jim: You've identified the entire scumteam? who is Web's partner and how do you know?
Post by: Jim Groovester on September 22, 2013, 10:44:10 pm
Post by: Lenglon on September 22, 2013, 10:50:26 pm
I..."
Jim: because you know who it is?
Jim:
Anyways, I think our scum are Toaster and webadict. Toaster's claim has some holes, webadict's claim has a lot of holes.Lenglon finishes having a total moron moment
Lenglon and Tiruin, we need to be unanimous in a decision because if we're not last minute vote shenanigans can screw us over. I vote webadict since there's more evidence against him (Vector made a mistake yeah right) than Toaster.
sorry.
"I...
I seem to be kinda out of it right now.
Do you mind waiting a bit for me? I...
I don't seem to be thinking clearly right now."
Jim: Do you mind giving me some time? I seem to be out of it, and I don't trust my judgement right now. a mistake at this stage could cost us too much for that.
Post by: Tiruin on September 22, 2013, 11:36:08 pm
Lenglon and Tiruin, we need to be unanimous in a decision because if we're not last minute vote shenanigans can screw us over. I vote webadict since there's more evidence against him (Vector made a mistake yeah right) than Toaster.
Self-esteem speaking. Why not Toaster?
If there'd be vote shenanigans, then Webadict-however my lack of detailed reading leads to this question: The crux of the vote on him is because...he didn't want to claim his role or..?
"I don't seem to be thinking clearly right now.""Me too, hence..the extend. And I'm..thinking back on the moment."
Also my read is conclusive: Most of the flavor is flavor but the connections to what we've found on people are..pertinent.
Vector:
Also can a person with a negative vote somehow..cancel another vote placed on someone?
It would be milo if everybody had full strength votes, which is not the case. Delaying is a dangerous move in this case.Well, given this case: Leafsnail can..probably save lives I think? His vote stands for a -1..Something which I can't quite grasp.
And we already have a pretty good idea of who the scumteam is. No real need to wait around when that's the case.
Query though. Why does the OP read stuff like the people are offered up for the Goddess?
The Goddess of Death?
Jim: Could you ask where you got your dress?
Post by: webadict on September 23, 2013, 12:10:43 am
(Vector made a mistake yeah right)Vector, did you make a mistake?
Post by: Vector on September 23, 2013, 12:34:03 am
VOTE COUNT (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZBUiu_m70KQ&feature=related)
Webberman - Lenglon, Jim Groovester, Tiruin
Leafsnail
Tiruin
Lenglon
Toaster
Jim Groovestar - Toaster
Not Voting: Leafsnail
Day End is scheduled for Tuesday at 7:00 PM (-8GMT). Two more votes required for an initial extension to Thursday at 7:00 PM (-8 GMT).
(Vector made a mistake yeah right)Vector, did you make a mistake?
Yeah, I probably shouldn't have counted that as a hammer on Solifuge. I still feel pretty bad about it.
Post by: Tiruin on September 23, 2013, 12:37:16 am
How were you different from..well:
What was said here, (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4574142#msg4574142) as opposed to who you were back on that day?
Post by: Tiruin on September 23, 2013, 12:38:16 am
Yeah, I probably shouldn't have counted that as a hammer on Solifuge. I still feel pretty bad about it.O_o
Erm. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4547789#msg4547789)
Counting a +1 on LS, we've got 6/11.
..I see no errorgiven its 50%+
Post by: Jim Groovester on September 23, 2013, 12:56:43 am
Why not Toaster?
Because there's more evidence against webadict.
The arguments against Toaster are that his night action choices suck and his role claim is suspected to be false, and there's some flavor inconsistency with his claim. The inconsistencies in webadict's claim are much stronger.
Jim: Could you ask where you got your dress?
Which one? I started the game with a heavy homespun dress. Then everybody got dressed up by the Prince.
Hey, remember how the Prince fed you red herring? Maybe he'll feed you some more, since you like the taste of it so much.
Jim
How were you different from..well:
What was said here, (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4574142#msg4574142) as opposed to who you were back on that day?
People called me the Goddess of Order but I didn't know that that's what I was, except through inferrence.
Now I know.
I didn't have a divine purpose beforehand, but now I do.
Post by: Tiruin on September 23, 2013, 01:16:05 am
Hey, remember how the Prince fed you red herring? Maybe he'll feed you some more, since you like the taste of it so much.I am so going to punch you after this. T_T
Which one? I started the game with a heavy homespun dress. Then everybody got dressed up by the Prince.Did they change your dress?
Why not Toaster?
Because there's more evidence against webadict.
The arguments against Toaster are that his night action choices suck and his role claim is suspected to be false, and there's some flavor inconsistency with his claim. The inconsistencies in webadict's claim are much stronger.That exactly is..?-stuff-stuff-stuff- (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4574142#msg4574142)
People called me the Goddess of Order but I didn't know that that's what I was, except through inferrence.
Now I know.
I didn't have a divine purpose beforehand, but now I do.
Post by: Jim Groovester on September 23, 2013, 02:06:47 am
Post by: Jim Groovester on September 23, 2013, 02:10:56 am
Did they change your dress?
I am wearing a black dress. Probably the same mourning attire we were wearing yesterday.
Or maybe it's not the same dress, but still mourning attire. Which is black. Hence my black dress.
I have no idea why you care about this.
Post by: Leafsnail on September 23, 2013, 05:55:23 am
Counting a +1 on LS, we've got 6/11.No, it would be 6/12. That hammer was an error, but if Vector made an error as big as choosing the wrong target for a player (and having two other players see that wrong target) then I'd expect her to admit to it in-thread.
..I see no errorgiven its 50%+
My vote just reduces the effective number of votes on someone by one, that's all.
Post by: Toaster on September 23, 2013, 07:49:26 am
I have no objection to hammering him, but since we've got at least one extend vote out there I don't want to rush into it.
I don't have much to say in regards to my target selection, other than it suffered largely from "I'm pretty lost in this game-itis" and that Lenglon saw my targeting N2. That, and I can target Jim tonight to restore one of his one-shots, assuming I can restore one the night it was used. Asking that question now.
Post by: Lenglon on September 23, 2013, 10:32:38 am
ok, I'm... I think I'm back together again.
I...
I'm willing to work with your plan Jim.
It...
I don't see how Web can be innocent, and I don't understand why Toaster would have visited Web last night instead of sheep.
But I insist on keeping my mind open, ok?
we might learn something new tonight, and I want to keep my wits about me. I'm not willing to just blindly do as you say, ok?
It could be way too easy for someone to claim they can't visit anyone when in fact they can and have."
Jim: I've done my review, and I'm willing to work with your plan for now, but I insist on paying attention in case we get new information.
Post by: Tiruin on September 23, 2013, 10:54:46 am
Something's running a train back and forth over my hypothetical me that is nudging me that something's really really wrong here and we're quite all honestly confused.
So please guys Extend :/ It's Wednesday midnight as of this post, give or take 5 minutes.
Post by: Lenglon on September 23, 2013, 11:08:03 am
Tiruin: um, we still have close to 30 hours left. Why the extend?
Post by: Leafsnail on September 23, 2013, 11:17:29 am
Post by: Tiruin on September 23, 2013, 11:28:28 am
Tiruin: um, we still have close to 30 hours left. Why the extend?O_o
Ok, I really do remember Vector saying it on Tuesday. Erm.
..That much.
I'd support an extension until we have a unanimous vote on webadict. I need to check if my extension votes are negative first thoughwat.
Don't tell me that extends to any kind of vote other than what your vote-vote is. :/
Because..that'd really be a slip in writing and I doubt Vector does that. At all.
Post by: Tiruin on September 23, 2013, 11:34:11 am
I'm really really leaning on an extend at the moment....
Something's running a train back and forth over my hypothetical me that is nudging me that something's really really wrong here and we're quite all honestly confused.
So please guys Extend :/ It's Wednesday midnight as of this post, give or take 5 minutes.
I really am disoriented.
It's actually Tuesday, 12am.
Haha.
. . .Yeah >_<
Post by: Lenglon on September 23, 2013, 11:36:16 am
Tiruin: um, we still have close to 30 hours left. Why the extend?O_o
Ok, I really do remember Vector saying it on Tuesday. Erm.
..That much.
Day End is scheduled for Tuesday at 7:00 PM (-8GMT). Two more votes required for an initial extension to Thursday at 7:00 PM (-8 GMT).in -8 GMT, it is currently ,Monday, 9:30 am
Post by: Toaster on September 23, 2013, 12:12:04 pm
I'd support an extension until we have a unanimous vote on webadict. I need to check if my extension votes are negative first though
Uh...
Webberman - Lenglon, Jim Groovester, Tiruin
Leafsnail
Tiruin
Lenglon
Toaster
Jim Groovestar - Toaster
Not Voting: Leafsnail
I would vote webadict.
Web claiming that Vector made a mistake yet not ever attempting to clarify that is pretty damning, in my eyes.
I have no objection to hammering him, but since we've got at least one extend vote out there I don't want to rush into it.
Sounds pretty unanimous to me. Well, except for Web, but that doesn't really count.
Post by: Leafsnail on September 23, 2013, 12:15:02 pm
Post by: webadict on September 23, 2013, 12:19:14 pm
Told ya. She's human, she makes mistakes too. And no, she wouldn't admit to a wrong target for three reasons:(Vector made a mistake yeah right)Vector, did you make a mistake?
Yeah, I probably shouldn't have counted that as a hammer on Solifuge. I still feel pretty bad about it.
1) It proves I have an action.
2) It gives away player-specific information.
3) It's breaking the game.
She won't answer the question no matter how specific it is.
But, on the other hand, she won't NOT admit to it either. Isn't that right, Vector?
I really did action Toaster last Night, and it really was mod error that I targeted TheWetSheep. There would be no logical reason for me to target Sheep at all. There's no way for me to defend this other than I DID NOT TARGET THEWETSHEEP BY ANYTHING ELSE OTHER THAN MOD ERROR.
This is nothing other than ridiculous.
Post by: Toaster on September 23, 2013, 01:08:57 pm
You haven't voted him yet so it's not unanimous.
Okay, but remember that doing so will hammer him. If there's nothing else to discuss, then I'll go ahead and end the day.
Post by: Lenglon on September 23, 2013, 01:24:02 pm
UnvoteYou haven't voted him yet so it's not unanimous.
Okay, but remember that doing so will hammer him. If there's nothing else to discuss, then I'll go ahead and end the day.
Tiruin asked for some time, I see no reason not to grant the request.
Post by: Tiruin on September 23, 2013, 02:43:53 pm
Post by: Jim Groovester on September 23, 2013, 03:38:19 pm
stuff
So by some curious twist of logic, Vector not admitting to a mistake is in fact an admission of a mistake.
How about we clear all of this up.
Vector, were there any errors in the processing of the night actions during N3?
If there were errors, would you admit to them?
If there were errors that would lead to somebody being lynched, would you admit to them?
If there were no errors, would you confirm publicly that there were no errors?
Post by: Leafsnail on September 23, 2013, 07:20:25 pm
Post by: Toaster on September 23, 2013, 07:21:30 pm
Webadict makes him L-1 again.
Post by: Vector on September 23, 2013, 08:49:31 pm
And no, she wouldn't admit to a wrong target for three reasons:
1) It proves I have an action.
2) It gives away player-specific information.
3) It's breaking the game.
She won't answer the question no matter how specific it is.
But, on the other hand, she won't NOT admit to it either. Isn't that right, Vector?
This is correct.
Vector, were there any errors in the processing of the night actions during N3?
No comment.
In the event of my creating an error so catastrophic that it throws the game, I will declare everyone other than the mod a winner and flagellate myself most soundly. Otherwise, I will not confirm or deny private information in-thread, as that would make the game unplayable and itself constitute an error so catastrophic that it threw the game.
Post by: Leafsnail on September 23, 2013, 09:30:42 pm
Post by: Tiruin on September 23, 2013, 10:05:33 pm
Vector: Is the puzzle's answer involving metagame knowledge in anyway--like, discussing Mafia terms and stuff?
Post by: Toaster on September 23, 2013, 10:06:08 pm
That, and I can target Jim tonight to restore one of his one-shots, assuming I can restore one the night it was used. Asking that question now.
Yes, I can.
Post by: Tiruin on September 23, 2013, 10:10:35 pm
..What are Jim's one-shots given that you know he has them?That, and I can target Jim tonight to restore one of his one-shots, assuming I can restore one the night it was used. Asking that question now.
Yes, I can.
Post by: Vector on September 23, 2013, 10:16:26 pm
Vector: Is the puzzle's answer involving metagame knowledge in anyway--like, discussing Mafia terms and stuff?
I can't give you any more information on it than what you've already been given.
Post by: webadict on September 23, 2013, 10:45:47 pm
In other words if Vector has made such an error then you shouldn't care about being lynched webadict.Uh, no, I should care, because I might have gotten TheWetSheep killed, and I'm getting lynched because of that.
Post by: Tiruin on September 23, 2013, 11:03:15 pm
In other words if Vector has made such an error then you shouldn't care about being lynched webadict...Why shouldn't he? This feels like subtly wanting him to be lynched.
You're implying quite a lot there LS.
Right. Going to make my post in a few hours..hopefully.
Post by: Vector on September 24, 2013, 12:59:18 am
..Or check Horatio's bedroom.
The door to Horatio's room is locked, and from within you hear muffled sobbing.
You knock anyway. Horatio emerges with mussed hair and wet stains on his shirt, closing the door behind him so you can't see inside. You've never seen a man look more exhausted.
"What is it now?" he says flatly, rubbing his eyes.
"Where was the Prince last night?"
He gives you a look and retreats back into his room. A moment later, you hear bolts thudding home. The sobbing continues.
You wait outside the door for a while in case anything interesting happens. After a while you hear Horatio clear his throat and say: "There's many other people out there, you know. . . . Fish in the sea, as it were."
No response.
VOTE COUNT (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kOFqpwrL9fw)
Wobbadoodledoo - Jim Groovester, Toaster
Leafsnail
Tiruin
Lenglon
Toaster
Jim Groovestar
Not Voting: Leafsnail, Tiruin, Lenglon, Webadict
Day End is scheduled for Tuesday at 7:00 PM (-8GMT). One more vote (from people other than Tiruin or Lenglon) required for an initial extension to Thursday at 7:00 PM (-8 GMT).
Post by: Tiruin on September 24, 2013, 01:03:56 am
Except two people unvoted him...Ok, how does this make him L-1, huh?
Webadict makes him L-1 again.
...Do I have the feeling that there's some kind of curse on the Prince/Horatio?
..
.
Cannibalism?
PFP - EXTEND IT YOU PEOPLE
Post by: Toaster on September 24, 2013, 07:50:01 am
..What are Jim's one-shots given that you know he has them?That, and I can target Jim tonight to restore one of his one-shots, assuming I can restore one the night it was used. Asking that question now.
Yes, I can.
I know he claimed he had them. He claimed having the standard JOAT lineup here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4623149#msg4623149).
Except two people unvoted him...Ok, how does this make him L-1, huh?
Webadict makes him L-1 again.
I derped and miscounted.
Since everyone is claimed, are we planning out night actions ahead of time? With a block and a track and my action being verifiable (assuming Jim is telling the truth), we should be able to eliminate several people from scumhood.
Post by: Leafsnail on September 24, 2013, 08:31:15 am
Uh, no, I should care, because I might have gotten TheWetSheep killed, and I'm getting lynched because of that.And you'll win anyway because Vector would've made a gamebreaking error. And so would we.
In other words, if you're telling the truth, there's no harm in lynching you (since we'd be lynching you on the basis of a mod error). If you are lying, we should lynch you.
Post by: Tiruin on September 24, 2013, 10:23:45 am
Or Lenglon is a good liar.Uh, no, I should care, because I might have gotten TheWetSheep killed, and I'm getting lynched because of that.And you'll win anyway because Vector would've made a gamebreaking error. And so would we.
In other words, if you're telling the truth, there's no harm in lynching you (since we'd be lynching you on the basis of a mod error). If you are lying, we should lynch you.
...Could I be reminded why you didn't target me despite signifying interest a while ago Lenglon? Why did you follow who you chose to follow before?
Sure you did.Except two people unvoted him...Ok, how does this make him L-1, huh?
Webadict makes him L-1 again.
I derped and miscounted.
And considering that, what stops you from voting him..well, back then? Any difference from now?
Day End is scheduled for Tuesday at 7:00 PM (-8GMT). One more vote (from people other than Tiruin or Lenglon) required for an initial extension to Thursday at 7:00 PM (-8 GMT)...Anyone else's thoughts on why you're all not extending?
Post by: Toaster on September 24, 2013, 10:26:52 am
And considering that, what stops you from voting him..well, back then? Any difference from now?
I have no objection to hammering him, but since we've got at least one extend vote out there I don't want to rush into it.
Post by: Tiruin on September 24, 2013, 10:35:42 am
Post by: Toaster on September 24, 2013, 10:40:55 am
Post by: Tiruin on September 24, 2013, 10:42:45 am
Webadict: Could you expound on How this happened. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4621151#msg4621151) How exactly did it happen (paraphrase the story if its dialogue)? What exactly is your 'roleblocking' power?
Because according to Jim who I cannot find any logic to denounce, TWS was blocked, then killed.
..And somehow nobody suspects me for that matter. Things are really weird going on here, and I'm really sensing everything being off. Meaning my intuition is going haywire.
On a hypothetical note, if you are fakeclaiming-why say that you roleblocked?
Toaster: Any self-abilities you've got there? I'm really doubting your position as a..well, that kind of ability-user. Recharging someone's shots is one thing.
However, you did say you targeted Web. And I'm pretty...suspicious on it-perhaps you did say you're targeting Web because you knew that Lenglon is a follower. Perhaps, as a cover up.
What happened on N3- I'm talking about flavor here.
[...] I want to see about preplanning night actions.[...]Alright, how?
Post by: Tiruin on September 24, 2013, 10:46:50 am
Jim: I'd like to ask you on what ZU got when he died. What was his message when he died-the gist of it.
Because it's pretty weird that you'd be speaking with the dead for a dreamer. Like..you're some kind of prophetess.
Do you have any limitations?
Post by: Toaster on September 24, 2013, 12:26:02 pm
Toaster: Any self-abilities you've got there? I'm really doubting your position as a..well, that kind of ability-user. Recharging someone's shots is one thing.
However, you did say you targeted Web. And I'm pretty...suspicious on it-perhaps you did say you're targeting Web because you knew that Lenglon is a follower. Perhaps, as a cover up.
What happened on N3- I'm talking about flavor here.[...] I want to see about preplanning night actions.[...]Alright, how?
The only action or ability I have is the mentioned reset. I don't know what you mean about "knew that Lenglon is a follower."
N3 flavor was pretty basic. I ponder a bit about how humans are treated post death (IE why aren't they used for fertilizer). I stick a rose behind Web's ear. I ponder more about death, and how humans don't decorate themselves with dead bits of other humans. Roses are cooler anyway.
Then I wonder about order, and make lists of what I know.
Hm.
Anyone else get random mentions of order in their flavor?
Post by: Lenglon on September 24, 2013, 12:43:23 pm
well, um, earlier you asked me why I followed Web, and like I said then, I found her the most suspicious.
still, I guess you want me to focus on you, and stuff? I mean, why not you instead?
Well, um, like I said earlier today, I... I didn't simply think you lied yesterday, I thought that I knew what you were able to do instead. I thought you were an investigator.
and um, I kinda saw no way for someone untrustworthy to be able to do that. I mean, why would our enemies need an investigator to learn who our enemies are?
also, um, even if you were lying to me and stuff, you...
well, you're pretty good at guessing what I'm thinking.
and that meant that last night, even if you were untrustworthy, I didn't think I'd catch you at it.
I... kinda thought that if I couldn't trust you, you'd know to hide, and if I could, then there wasn't any point.
does that make sense?"
Tiruin: 3 reasonsOr Lenglon is a good liar.Uh, no, I should care, because I might have gotten TheWetSheep killed, and I'm getting lynched because of that.And you'll win anyway because Vector would've made a gamebreaking error. And so would we.
In other words, if you're telling the truth, there's no harm in lynching you (since we'd be lynching you on the basis of a mod error). If you are lying, we should lynch you.
...Could I be reminded why you didn't target me despite signifying interest a while ago Lenglon? Why did you follow who you chose to follow before?
1) (main reason) Web seemed more suspicious
2) I thought you had an investigate, which is useless to scum.
3) I thought you might think I was going to follow you
Post by: Tiruin on September 24, 2013, 04:26:17 pm
Anyone else get random mentions of order in their flavor?Nope.
Also I believe day ends >_> Good going guys. Curse my timezone and all..and work-couldn't come up with that post despite browsing back a few pages. Going for Toaster - can't highlight what's wrong on him, just that there are discrepancies in what I see about him, that his role is a bit too..transparent for it to be believable..
Argh i wish I had more time. Sorry Vector.
Yes it does.
does that make sense?"
Post by: Jim Groovester on September 24, 2013, 04:40:16 pm
Jim: I'd like to ask you on what ZU got when he died. What was his message when he died-the gist of it.
zombie urist was lynched. Neither of the two lynchees in dead chat mentioned anything about getting any extra flavor on their death.
Because it's pretty weird that you'd be speaking with the dead for a dreamer. Like..you're some kind of prophetess.
If you'll remember when I described the flavor I got on Solifuge's death, I managed to connect to the land of the dead and became aware of the spirits of dead players and the Prince's family.
A similar thing happened when zombie urist died, but to a greater degree. Now the connection is permanent.
Do you have any limitations?
I can't do anything that isn't in my role PM.
Since everyone is claimed, are we planning out night actions ahead of time? With a block and a track and my action being verifiable (assuming Jim is telling the truth), we should be able to eliminate several people from scumhood.
Let's see.
You're the only player whom Lenglon can track. Therefore logically Lenglon should track you.
I'm logically the only player whom you can target and have an effect. However, I don't trust you. Therefore, you should target Tiruin, and verify your non-killerness by visiting Tiruin with a non-killing action that both Tiruin and Lenglon can verify. This way, we can see how long you will pretend to not be scum.
I don't know what I'm planning on doing. We'll see how web flips. If he flips town, I'm definitely killing someone.
Post by: Lenglon on September 24, 2013, 05:48:34 pm
Jim: I may or may not go along with that plan. I'm not convinced that I shouldn't be tracking Tiruin instead right now, and I want to keep her guessing as to if I'll track her or not. do you think I should track Toaster even if Tiruin is lying?
Post by: Toaster on September 24, 2013, 07:21:35 pm
Post by: Leafsnail on September 24, 2013, 07:45:29 pm
Or Lenglon is a good liar.And by "good liar" you mean what exactly? That Lenglon can magically predict mod errors? That Lenglon is currently holding a gun to Vector's head and making her rig the game?
Post by: Jim Groovester on September 24, 2013, 07:50:37 pm
Jim: I may or may not go along with that plan. I'm not convinced that I shouldn't be tracking Tiruin instead right now, and I want to keep her guessing as to if I'll track her or not. do you think I should track Toaster even if Tiruin is lying?
Why do you suspect Tiruin?
I'd rather keep Toaster honest.
Post by: Lenglon on September 24, 2013, 08:01:35 pm
didn't I explain this earlier?
anyway, um, I kinda found her claim to be really... convienent?
She um, doesn't have to make alibi's for anything, but there's no way to verify what she says she can do. I just don't understand why she'd admit to us what she's capable of at all. I mean, she disabled herself pretty thoroughly when she did that, right?
It's... It's not really a whole lot to go on...
I'll... I'll probably go along with your plan and all, but no guarantees, ok?"
Jim: it's a weak suspicion based on her claim. I explained it in detail earlier. I'm more likely to follow your plan than not, but I'm not promising anything.Jim: I may or may not go along with that plan. I'm not convinced that I shouldn't be tracking Tiruin instead right now, and I want to keep her guessing as to if I'll track her or not. do you think I should track Toaster even if Tiruin is lying?
Why do you suspect Tiruin?
I'd rather keep Toaster honest.
Post by: Vector on September 24, 2013, 09:01:23 pm
Post by: Vector on September 29, 2013, 01:05:24 pm
The Prince doesn't return that day, and Horatio you only see occasionally, running in and out. Did he care about the one who died last night? Does he care about anything at all? Why hadn't he cared to the same extent about the rest of you? These are the questions you find yourselves wondering over, whether they're the right ones or not. It seems selfish of him, and by the end of the day you're in a haze of hunger. The hunters and merchants have not yet returned.
"Prince," says Vektor, "Come on. Tell us about it."
"I had hoped. . ." says the Prince. He seems to have cried himself out for now. "I had hoped the girl who had died the night before would be my bride."
"And so you continued to keep the others hostage as they died, one by one, rather than asking her straight off."
"I wanted to be fair," says the Prince.
"But you had made up your mind."
"I had some misgivings. I wasn't sure. I knew for certain after she had perished. It was so hard to--to do anything. I knew what had to be done. But I . . . wasn't strong enough to do it."
Vektor is quiet. He wants to take Mischka back, but eyes the Prince's blade, his puffy red face, and leaves her where she is.
"You weren't sad because she died," he says carefully. "You didn't love her. You were disappointed that your game didn't turn out the way you wanted. I don't even believe that she was the one you wanted most."
"But I could have loved her," says the Prince. "I really could have."
You decide one of the girls might have been responsible for yesterday's tragedy. Unlike the Prince, you do not execute on conjecture. The rest of you pick her up and carry her bodily to the castle door, then order the archers to shoot her on sight if she ever returns. She looks back over her shoulder, like a bride, and limps away down the dusty road. You have left her with nothing but the dress on her back--and her life.
"Prince," says Vektor, "You may cut me down if I say this, but I am already old, I have lost my beloved, and someone must tell you."
"I'm listening," says the Prince.
"You are not fit to rule a courtyard, let alone a kingdom. You have made a mockery of love; at this point in your story you are responsible for the deaths of six girls, a defenseless old man, and your own brother. Certainly, whoever killed them was most guilty, but you could have fixed everything with a wave of your hand.
"My wife was taken from me by the snow. You permitted human evil and pretended that nothing could be done about it, like it was a force as implacable as the weather!"
The Prince nods as he hears these charges, smiling bitterly.
"Why did you think I am here?"
In the girl's room you find an array of knives, and a pair of blood-red dancing shoes.
You are Okami no Rei, who wears Red Shoes.
You have been cursed to dance forever--cursed by some shoes once sent to you by a former suitor, spurned. Hell hath no fury like a lover scorned, as you knew, but you made your decisions and now you shall lie with them.
The real reason why you're here is to get those shoes off your feet. They were not red at first, but white satin. The red came after, from bruising, from sores you could never treat, from blisters that formed upon other blisters, from blood and pus pouring out of your soles as you leaped and frolicked, a rictus grinning out of your face. So long as there was a musician playing you could never stop dancing.
So long as you kept dancing, the musicians would never leave. They waited while you slept and, to see you wake, began to play. You begged them to go, but as you smiled and struck just one more attitude, jumped just once more to your toes, they changed the key again and blissfully watched your dance--and the coins passers-by threw at your bleeding feet. Those that left told others about you--the amazing girl in the red shoes, so lithe, so lean, so tough, who never stopped dancing and smiling, hour after hour, who cried sometimes with the passion of her art!
When the Prince made his famous declaration calling for wives throughout the land, you pirouetted your way to his castle. As queen, you could issue edicts and order the musicians beheaded, even after you were able to take your shoes off. If you recognized one of your torturers, his head would roll.
Unfortunately, there is a musician around here somewhere who keeps strumming her balalaika and won't stop, no matter how many times you've asked. You and your aching feet really wish that she would quit that.
The Black Swan approaches you with some sort of half-baked plan, mentioning personal vendettas and almost foaming at the mouth--but she says she'll kill the other ladies until she gets her target, and as they've all been smiling and laughing and throwing flowers and money and all sorts of other inanities at your feet, complimenting you on the authenticity of your screams in particularly dramatic places, you really wouldn't mind.
Maybe you'll be able to take out the musician, while you're at it.
You are a member of The Black Swan's Cohort. You have a private chat here (http://HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA). You win when the girls outside the cohort are dead.
Each night you may perform a pas de deux with someone, effectively making sure they get nothing else done (roleblock). If you do this three times with the same person, they will die.
[She was able to take her shoes off]
Your role has been modified.
You now just have a plain old roleblock. You kvetch at people, show them your feet, and generally distract them so much by being disgusting and foot-obsessed that they totally forget what they were up to.
Night will end as soon as I have received all actions. This game has now become my first priority, so if you get them to me by the end of today, then night will be processed by the end of today. I'm serious about this.
Post by: Vector on September 30, 2013, 01:46:26 am
This remains my first priority and it will be finished by the end of the day tomorrow.
Post by: Vector on October 01, 2013, 02:21:54 am
The Prince awakens from a nightmare, sheened with sweat. When he tries to stand up and open the curtains, a hand reaches out from beneath the covers and caresses his side.
"Who--"
"Darling," says the body in his bed. "We need to talk."
She wraps herself around him, whispers pet insults in his ear, bites down. She smells of manure, her tongue of rotten meat. Her hands are cold. Her breath, when she takes it, rattles.
"Listen to me, Prince. I don't care how many mortal lovers you seduce, but you are duty-bound to honor me. Your subjects serve you, and you obey me. That's the natural or--that's how things go, because I decree it. Yes."
He should call out for someone. His brother's ghost visited him again last night. He was reminded again of his cowardice. Is reminded. He won't call.
"Look up there," she says. "Look at those roses you've clipped and put in a vase. They've died. But the rosebushes outside, growing colorful on a hearty breast of swan, are flourishing. If you enjoy being alive, then you must offer me tribute."
"What do you want," says the Prince.
"Turn and let me see you--we don't have long together," says Mother Death. She turns him towards her when he won't move, caresses his silky hair. Though she looks something like the 'goddess' who had died, though she has the same glossy black curls and soft, vacant expression of the corpse she inhabits, something cracked and bitter lives in it.
She pulls down the sheets to her bare waist, reveals a sopping red wound in her chest, takes his hand and dips it in. She tastes his finger.
"Give me blood," she says. "You will hold a ceremony as each king did before you. Bedeck your hair with flowers. Hire musicians. Serve fat birds roasted whole. Appeal to the crowd's sense of spectacle. And then lay your sorry body out on that bier you foolishly dropped me on, and have Horatio roll up your snow-white shirtcuffs, and order him with your own breath to cut you.
"--It must be he who loves you best. Be absolutely sure of it. Only such a person can officiate our marriage.
"Lie on that stone until your color fades to match it, and I shall come to offer you your crown."
"And if I do not?"
"Don't you believe in me, Princeling?" she asks him, pushing his hand deep into the warm cavity of her ribcage.
"Yes," he says in a nauseated gasp. "Here you are, in my bed, aren't you?"
"This is the depth to which I know you," she says, gesturing to his hand quaking where her heart would be. "You are a Prince of the land. You stand above the rest, and I deign to take you as lover.
"Disobey me and your line will bear no fruit, for I am the darkest and sweetest of them all; stray from me and your reign shall know unending violence, for I am the tender guide and caretaker of each soldier you would send gravewards; adore any other first and you shall be plagued with a cuckold's sorrow, for I am the passionate romantic to whom all bored and aged lovers appeal.
"Be faithful to your beloved," she says. "Thou shalt take no others before me. Be faithful to my laws and bury your dead as I order. Permit no others their disgusting pagan habits; they displease me. The first in every great monarch's heart is Death."
The Prince is silent.
"This body is nearly done, I think," she says, yawning luxuriously. "I'll miss you, Sigfred. But we'll meet again. . . soon."
She looks at him as though for the first time, with a penetrating gaze that does not suit her face.
"You have your father's stubborn streak and your mother's vitality," she says. "You would have made a magnificent king."
With a satisfied sigh, she expires. The Prince bundles her naked body in his bedsheets and tries, in vain, to wash the blood from his shaking hands.
"So you abandoned your duties again and one of the girls was banished," says Vektor. "What happened the next morning? I assume you didn't have the sense to call your search off."
"Nothing," says the Prince. "Nothing at all. For once, I spent the dawn resting comfortably in bed."
He says later, having quietly nursed his mead for the better part of an hour:
"Isn't it funny? We think we know so much of the gods, but inevitably we give them names that don't quite suit."
You are Jim Groovester the Sleeping Beauty.
You cannot be bounded by a nutshell, nor can you stretch across all infinite space. You have touched all existence with your fingertips; you have touched nothing; you have been a pauper; you have been the other; you have loved and hated all creation with a fervor the exorcists feared.
You have been drowned, you have been lit ablaze, you have been buried, you have been resurrected, you have seen kingdoms fall and rise and stagnate, you have seen the secret strings of the very universe, touched God with your lips, made courtesy to the Devil, traipsed a thousand miles to hell and guided a damned man to heaven, scraped clean, gorged fat--in your dreams.
You were meant to be sent to the prince by your well-meaning parents, to see if your nightly terrors, your passions and your glories, could be cured by his touch. Instead you were entered in his marriage lottery with twelve other girls, in your heavy homespun. He doesn't seem very choosy, and this you like--he, like you, seems to still be dreaming.
What your parents don't know is that you have always controlled your nighttime vagaries and chosen where you walked, too curious to abandon the highest and lowest imaginings. It was you who, in your sleep, deduced the threat to the Prince, spoke while still resting, warned the other women.
Who knows what you might discover yet?
You are town. You win when all threats to the Prince are gone.
Each night, you must choose one of the below topics for your nighttime explorations, and a target other than yourself to share the dream with; each dream may only be chosen once.
Bell
Taste
Cut
Anvil
Clarity
Gift
The Writer's Curse
Prince Gauss
Sanctity
Touch
[Solifuge dies]
You are town. You win when all threats to the Prince are gone.
You no longer share your dream with one person during your nighttime explorations, but with everyone. Those topics available at this time are:
Bell
Cut
Anvil
Gift
Touch
You must choose one and use it each night; each dream may be used only once. Attempts to awaken or redirect you will be unsuccessful.
[zombie urist and Solifuge are dead]
You are Mother Death's avatar. Your win condition is as follows:
Kill all the other prospective brides.
You may continue speaking with the dead.
You may kill one person each night by dreaming with them. As such this kill cannot be blocked.
Summary for those who don't like reading flavortext:
"And in strange coming aeons, even Death may die. . ."
JimGroovester was Mother Death, and she died of a fatal chest wound after using her last breaths to traumatize the Prince.
Day end is scheduled for Thursday, October 3rd at 9:30 (-8GMT); I have an appointment at 7:00. Two votes required for an extension to Monday at 7:00 (-8GMT).
Post by: Jim Groovester on October 01, 2013, 02:28:22 am
Post by: Tiruin on October 01, 2013, 02:41:01 am
Lenglon: Anything from last night?
Toaster: Why did you kill Jim?
I find it intriguing, that the homethread in this weave was both the wallflower and the supporting thread that affected us all.
I have details on what happened last night, but will withhold it until I have yours. Nothing can threaten me on this point.
Everyone: What did you do last night.
Post by: Lenglon on October 01, 2013, 03:25:10 am
Post by: Tiruin on October 01, 2013, 04:36:13 am
Unvote.
So..you followed Toaster. What'cha get?
Also, by cumulative guess..we've got 1 scum left (barring Jim >.>) and-
Leafsnail
Tiruin
Lenglon
Toaster
. . .Oh.
Post by: Tiruin on October 01, 2013, 05:15:19 am
Leafsnail: Did anything change for you overnight?
Lenglon (I'm guessing you're busy) but what was your action, and corresponding flavor?
Toaster: What did you do last night-and where did you sleep?
Post by: Toaster on October 01, 2013, 07:56:21 am
Behind a statue in the garden
In a small bed in a low bedroom
In a laundry basket
On a couch in the drawing room
Let's let you confirm which one it was.
Why do you ask where I slept?
Post by: Tiruin on October 01, 2013, 07:59:57 am
-snip-Before I answer your query [...seriously, drawing room? >_>], I'd like to ask how you found me.
..Because I didn't feel../those/ urges.
Who else did you see in my vicinity when you did such-and was I asleep-ASLEEP at the time of your action, or something else?
Why do you ask where I slept?General information query.
Post by: Toaster on October 01, 2013, 08:09:20 am
There's no mention of anyone being near you, and not really a lot of detail at all. It looks like my character assumed you were asleep, though you did grab the rose when I put it in your hand.
Also, did anyone else have bad dreams last night? I did.
Post by: Tiruin on October 01, 2013, 08:11:18 am
Also, really now. I did not see any rose on me, nor did I have any note of receiving any rose. Nor did I have any inflammation of copulating interest in that nature.
Post by: Tiruin on October 01, 2013, 08:13:01 am
<_<
Post button. I'm lynching you.
Tiruin: Toaster's clean. please unvote so scum can't quickhammer.And could you detail in detail how TOaster is innocent and/or 'clean'?
Post by: Leafsnail on October 01, 2013, 09:37:59 am
However, I think I have cracked the puzzle behind this game. I'm PFP so I can't explain now.
Tiruin: Would you say that your character is feisty and erotic? Did you get attacked by Jim last night?
Lenglon: Please explain your role's flavour in a lot more detail. In particular, is there any sexual dimension to your role (as with Toaster's)? Why do you track people? Why do you love the prince?
Toaster: What is your real win condition? Be honest, we can't afford to lynch anyone other than mafia at this point anyway.
Vector: Can we ask about dead people roles? If so, how old was TWS?
Post by: Toaster on October 01, 2013, 09:54:11 am
Leafsnail: I am town and have the standard town wincon.
I dreamed of humans needlessly eating all the roses.
Post by: Lenglon on October 01, 2013, 11:56:53 am
I didn't sleep well.
I had a nightmare, a nightmare of lilies turning black and rotting."
"I... I think that Lady Toaster can't be the last killer. I mean, she visited Tiruin last night, not Jim, the person who died."
"Um, lady Leaf? I... I really do just kinda... follow someone around. I don't really have an explanation for why or anything. It's... It's kinda a mundane thing, but I seem to be good at it, I suppose. It's... It's not anything like that! No, I... I just... kinda... do it because I can? Anyway, as for the prince? I love him for his beauty and purity, both of body and soul. his ability to see the good in people hidden beneath the surface. It... It's the most beautiful thing I've ever seen."
Tiruin: Toaster is clean because she visited you last night, not the person who died.
Leafsnail:I follow people around, nothing sexual about it, no explanation for why I track people, I love the prince for his beauty and purity.
Post by: Tiruin on October 01, 2013, 12:25:04 pm
She smiles.
"I had a dream last night. It involved the Prince in gruesome texture.
"Also, I had tasted dirt-sort of an eerie notion right before going to sleep.
"I was a target last night. And one of you did it."
Tiruin: Toaster is clean because she visited you last night, not the person who died.Right.
I really suspect one of you flower-people due to what I had experienced last night. No, I did not see my attacker. I specifically got the hint of dirt. Soil. Earth. Loam. Without any cause.
However, my dream entailed..and did lead to more than what I feared. It..shattered a part of me-left me ill and bereft in a laundry basket, and..only by sheer willpower did I live.
So here's my guess.
Toaster's a dirty liar, literally. But he's innocent--he's only guilty if Lenglon is backing him up.
...But that damn feeling of soil without any context.
Jim targeted me with his kill. I laugh at him. Hahaha.
But then Lenglon would've easy-lynched back there is she was scum..or is just good mannered scum by making this day count.
Leeeeaaaafffsnail: What happened to you again when TWS died? And what abilities did you have? I'm forgetful.
Toaster: Where did you say you were going to act on me? No I don't want to do you.
Lenglon: Clean as in squeaky squeak clean? My intuition is still buzzing awry here.
..Or there are 2 scum >.>
Leafsnail:I follow people around, nothing sexual about it, no explanation for why I track people, I love the prince for his beauty and purity.Interesting.
I did nothing. I had a bad dream about cheating on my lover before waking up and feeling like the Prince could never love me because of my melancholy.Very interesting.
I dreamed of humans needlessly eating all the roses.Eww.
Toaster: I'd love to know what else you did last night. Where was I, exactly? As in, what area?
Someone guess what I did last night~Oh, and I've something about the Prince either, but that..remains to be in flavor.
It's sad, and I'm pretty glad I can talk about it with you other three and no other guard or servant around.
...
(It's really weird how we're all always left without mention in the flavor. :( )
Post by: Lenglon on October 01, 2013, 12:54:19 pm
Tiruin: No, not totally clean, but someone killed Jim, and Toaster visited you instead.
Leafsnail: did you kill jim last night?
Post by: Tiruin on October 01, 2013, 01:03:36 pm
Tiruin: No, not totally clean, but someone killed Jim, and Toaster visited you instead.And I do suppose that Toaster somehow lied and fed me dirt instead?
Toaster: Why'd you lie.
Quote
Leafsnail: did you kill jim last night?Any repercussions of asking Leafsnail this query?
Post by: Toaster on October 01, 2013, 01:37:01 pm
I am okay with targeting Tiruin, and will be doing that unless otherwise said.
Why are you so convinced I am lying? You should know I targeted you since I knew where you slept in that basket. Lenglon says she saw me visit you. What is it going to take to convince you?
Are you responsible for Jim's death?
I didn't do anything else last night. I didn't get any detail about where in the castle the laundry basket was- I can ask, though.
Post by: Leafsnail on October 01, 2013, 04:23:52 pm
Leafsnail:I follow people around, nothing sexual about it, no explanation for why I track people, I love the prince for his beauty and purity.So what you're saying is that you are the only player whose role has absolutely no link to their flavour?
Leeeeaaaafffsnail: What happened to you again when TWS died? And what abilities did you have? I'm forgetful.I had a double vote, but became depressed and got a -1 vote after TWS died.
So you're saying you were attacked in your dream or what? I don't see how you could turn the tables on Jim with fightfighting skills. Heck, if Lenglon attacked you, why isn't he dead?
Leafsnail: did you kill jim last night?No.
I'll post what I think is the solution to the puzzle in my next post.
Post by: Leafsnail on October 01, 2013, 04:27:16 pm
Post by: Tiruin on October 01, 2013, 04:48:55 pm
Tiruin:[/quote]I am okay with targeting Tiruin, and will be doing that unless otherwise said.
Why are you so convinced I am lying? You should know I targeted you since I knew where you slept in that basket.
It's an unhealthy dose of RL factoring in here making my thoughts unstable. I'm currently under...a lot of...pressure. Sorry.
..Also that was a silly form of specification. I slept in a basket. Most probably to the side for comfort..but I didn't expect you to have such exact accuracy to determine what position in the basket I slept in.
What is it going to take to convince you?Logic dictates that either you or LS did it.
However I'm preeeeetty sure now after collapsing asleep that Jim did it.
Howeverhowever, "Me 'grabbing' a rose (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4651711#msg4651711)" did NOT jive with what I received. I took a flavor action last night, and that was to look for Horatio. I have uncovered the fate-of-marriage of the Prince while doing so.
And only after all that was I placed in a laundry basket.
It was so comfy, that I was falling asleep.
Then something strange happened--I tasted dirt, then had the dream sequence hit me--then the horrible dream sequence hit. Of which I then had nearly quite much a heart attack.
Actually, the soil thing was probably just Toaster giving you the flower.Yeah pretty much suspicious and the reason why I'm being mean-ish
So you're saying you were attacked in your dream or what? I don't see how you could turn the tables on Jim with fightfighting skills. Heck, if Lenglon attacked you, why isn't he dead?"I have already told you. I can survive any assassination attempt on my life. I believe it was the dream morethan the vague description of...tasting dirt. I had no sense of anyone else but Horatio--only that I tasted dirt before receiving that dream. I have not seen, nor felt anyone else's presence. Not anyone of you, that is to say. Nor have I had any thought that it was Jim, directly..other than the dream. Which, supposedly jives with what Lenglon has-a horror borne only in the wildest dreams of death.
"But that doesn't answer the discrepancy back there. And, Lenglon is female. Get that into your head, please ma'am."
Post by: Tiruin on October 01, 2013, 05:25:26 pm
Heck, if Lenglon attacked you, why isn't she dead?
"But to hurt you, will be my last resort."Let me rephrase that.
"I have taken an oath not to kill or hurt any person on my honor. But I know how to survive against any attack made on me."
Post by: Tiruin on October 01, 2013, 05:51:12 pm
Lenglon: Just a..tiny query. How did you know Toaster was searching for me? given your last before most recent post here
Post by: Tiruin on October 01, 2013, 11:17:10 pm
Anyway..err, I did not notice any rose at all pre/post-dream. Shoving dirt into one's mouth insofar that they taste it is not what someone who tries to provoke se-coitus does!
..Ok must focus on something else now >_>
Lenglon: Why'd you choose Toaster despite the last posts you said before day end (which I..missed. Was thinking along memory back there hence my question to Toaster about where he said so) and not me?
Leafsnail: Why aren't you voting anyone? Also other people here are intersted in your cracked puzzle, thanks.
Tiruin: Would you say that your character is feisty and erotic? Did you get attacked by Jim last night?1. Hell no.
2. Maybe yeah most likely yes I guess so mhmm.
When you give the key to the puzzle, could you say how you solved it and why those specific questions there? I can be fiesty when I want to. Hmph.
Post by: Tiruin on October 01, 2013, 11:39:38 pm
Tiruin: Toaster's clean. please unvote so scum can't quickhammer.Lenglon: Basing on this, the last remaining scum (or person that can vote) noted has:
...well, had: A double vote.
And now has: a -1 vote.
Unless the Synthesis of the musician and LS'...past, lies.
Though it seems pretty much strange that LS/Toaster's powers seem to coincide (..yeah, in that sense).
..Anyway, Lenglon didn't vote then. Out of suspect line here for future note.
Still depressed?Leeeeaaaafffsnail: What happened to you again when TWS died? And what abilities did you have? I'm forgetful.I had a double vote, but became depressed and got a -1 vote after TWS died.
Post by: Leafsnail on October 02, 2013, 03:42:38 am
Him not voting Toaster isn't proof of anything. Firstly, my vote being worth -1 doesn't change the hammer rules (see: yesterday, 3 votes did not hammer webadict). Secondly, he would need a Tiruin lynch to win anyway because he has no other way to kill her.
I'm not voting anyone because my vote is negative and I can't really do anything useful with it.
Post by: Leafsnail on October 02, 2013, 03:44:56 am
There is one thing I find odd that doesn't fit the puzzle, though. Brown duck sounds like a garbled version of black swan. Do you have any other explanation for it, Tiruin?
Post by: Tiruin on October 02, 2013, 06:16:20 am
PFP incidentally....Nope. I have no garbled version of whatever, nor do I have any bad feelings about anyone here. I mean, yeah, sure that Vector somehow made my role..correlate in a metaphorical way to my past, but I can see that she did it damn perfect.
There is one thing I find odd that doesn't fit the puzzle, though. Brown duck sounds like a garbled version of black swan. Do you have any other explanation for it, Tiruin?
Which is me saying: Nope. I've no explanation because..I've no idea what you're saying in the first place. And if I did, then still nope. I'm totally lost. :v
If you mean like a..mirror copy(?) of the Role Black Swan..no. I'm not a cult leader. If you mean by being a...godfather? (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4547900#msg4547900) Then I'll prod on why you're being vague there.
Actually..yeah. I'm prodding you on why you're being vague there. Garbled whatnow?
"I'm not a swan. You're being awfully curt there."
I'll post my findings later, it was harder to write up than I thought. The main upshot is that Lenglon is probably mafia.Y u no correct pronouns.
Him not voting Toaster isn't proof of anything. Firstly, my vote being worth -1 doesn't change the hammer rules (see: yesterday, 3 votes did not hammer webadict). Secondly, he would need a Tiruin lynch to win anyway because he has no other way to kill her.
I'm not voting anyone because my vote is negative and I can't really do anything useful with it.
Okami no Rei => Webadict
Jim Groovestar
Leafsnail
Tiruin
Lenglon
Toaster
Quote
All votes must be in red and bold for legibility. Unvoting before voting again is not required, but appreciated. You may vote for No Lynch. You cannot conditional vote. In case of a tie, no one will be lynched. The game has soft hammers; if at any point a player has 51% of all available votes, that player will be lynched and the day will end.
It /did/ (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4629124#msg4629124) say 51%.
So your vote counts as a vote, technically in the hammer terms, but it also counts as a minus vote to the person at hand.
Post by: Lenglon on October 02, 2013, 09:38:16 am
well, with the way you've been acting, You're more likely my ally than not.
I'd still like to hear what Horatio told you though."
"Anyway, um. you wanted to know how I knew Toaster was looking for you? Well, it took me a little while, but as I watched her she passed by opportunities to go to other people's rooms, and seemed to be searching someone out. so I eventually was able to figure out she was looking for you by process of elimination."
"I'm... I'm not sure that it's a good idea to actually vote and all. I don't trust Lady Leafsnail, and she... she hasn't voted at all since she claimed to have had her ability changed. I'm worried she could move votes around, or still double-vote, or whatever. She worries me."
Leaf probably killed Jim either way, due to being the only person without verification last night, but if leaf was town-aligned (vig), she'd probably claim it.QuoteLeafsnail: did you kill jim last night?Any repercussions of asking Leafsnail this query?
Tiruin: could you please tell us what Horatio said?
PFPToaster's search route, I eliminated all other options and then wandered off to sleep once I figured it out.
Lenglon: Just a..tiny query. How did you know Toaster was searching for me? given your last before most recent post here
yes, I am.Leafsnail:I follow people around, nothing sexual about it, no explanation for why I track people, I love the prince for his beauty and purity.So what you're saying is that you are the only player whose role has absolutely no link to their flavour?
Leafsnail: why wont you claim your kill? everyone else is accounted for.Leafsnail: did you kill jim last night?No.
I'll post my findings later, it was harder to write up than I thought. The main upshot is that Lenglon is probably mafia.I look forward you presenting a case.
Him... he... he-.-
I'm not voting anyone because my vote is negative and I can't really do anything useful with it.Riiiiiight.
vote Toaster then.
Tiruin and Toaster: I don't want to vote until we agree on who to lynch, to avoid risking vote manipulator tricks, but under normal circumstances I'd be voting Leafsnail at this time.
Extend
Post by: Toaster on October 02, 2013, 10:10:33 am
Tiruin:
What is it going to take to convince you?Logic dictates that either you or LS did it.
However I'm preeeeetty sure now after collapsing asleep that Jim did it.
What makes you say Lenglon is telling the truth?
Also, the laundry basket was in the kitchen. It was full of clean towels (and you). I didn't notice anything unusual about you- no feathers or bill (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duck) or anything.
Leafsnail:
There is one thing I find odd that doesn't fit the puzzle, though. Brown duck sounds like a garbled version of black swan. Do you have any other explanation for it, Tiruin?
I don't see where you're coming from with that "garbled version."
But yeah, I'd like to hear your theory.
Lenglon: What makes you say Tiruin is verified?
Post by: Lenglon on October 02, 2013, 10:25:24 am
well, she can't be in two places at once, right?
well, if she spent all that time with Horatio last night, and yet was asleep when you reached her, and still you and I had enough time afterwards to get some sleep, then she'd have to have been in two places at once to do anything... mean, to Jim last night.
although I still don't understand how Jim died. It... it seemed kinda odd, you know?
and then even after that, did you notice how she has acted today? the way she has been carefully questioning us? It seems to me that she is trying her hardest to investigate with the tools she has available. and I'd say she's doing a pretty fine job of it too."
Lenglon: What makes you say Tiruin is verified?her alibi is weaker than the rest, but spending time with Horatio having a long discusion and still being asleep when you reached her, combined with the agressive reaction she had to the taste of dirt (gravedirt?) makes it seem unlikely to me that she is our final foe.
Post by: Lenglon on October 02, 2013, 10:34:00 am
what happened to Jim's ability to kill, if it wasn't used attempting to kill Tiruin? I mean, nobody else has a defense, and I can sorta understand why Jim would think it would work. I mean, Jim's lethal skill was mentioned to be unblockable. so depending on how Tiruin's defense works, it seems like it might have worked regardless, right? I think Jim tried to kill Tiruin, leaving a taste of gravedirt in her mouth, and that Tiruin managed to hold Jim off somehow."
Also, Tiruin has now demonstrated her claimed ability. if Jim didn't try to kill Tiruin last night, where else did Jim's kill go?
Post by: Vector on October 02, 2013, 10:36:12 am
Soft hammers have been lifted for today. There's no way to compute them gracefully without confirming or denying someone's role, and we're at 4P anyway.
Post by: Toaster on October 02, 2013, 10:36:46 am
Post by: Tiruin on October 02, 2013, 11:07:08 am
Extend as well....Your compliment is well received.
Tiruin:What is it going to take to convince you?Logic dictates that either you or LS did it.
However I'm preeeeetty sure now after collapsing asleep that Jim did it.
What makes you say Lenglon is telling the truth?
Also, the laundry basket was in the kitchen. It was full of clean towels (and you). I didn't notice anything unusual about you- no feathers or bill (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duck) or anything.
Also, I doubt both of you--her, less. But the fact remains that I tasted dirt. And you're both flower-girls. :I While I could attribute the dirt-touch to Lenglon given how she said before, a note on soil..I'm currently (yeah the extend-sorry Vector :P) under RL stuff to check >_>
And she's confirming you. She followed people. That thing back on Soli in the day? Did you see how unerring that thing was [sans bad stuff]? If it was a mislynch-deal, then she'd be relying on her allies to deal with it given how Soli was still alive.
They had Web-the roleblocker. All deaths after then were generally, without weaponry..ok, maybe NQT, but I'm attributing his death to being caused by the same deal. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4562324#msg4562324) (Also Sage is an herb. Just saying. O_o)
See yonder logic?
But maybe you'd still suspect her more. I know I did then, until...
Until I examined the wounds. Check it. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4537575#msg4537575)
So that's why I said it's either you or him, because something's still up with the two of you, and Jim. All kills happen at the same time, I guess via the link in the OP.
Also, the laundry basket was in the kitchen....So that's how far he brought me, huh.
[was about to post. Noticed that Lenglon had posted. Noticed everything else >_< Ok I'm overworked]
Err, mine does too, because my self-esteem and all this crazy things called life, y'know?yes, I am.Leafsnail:I follow people around, nothing sexual about it, no explanation for why I track people, I love the prince for his beauty and purity.So what you're saying is that you are the only player whose role has absolutely no link to their flavour?
Also how is it absolutely not linking, Leafsnail?
"I...I'd still like to hear what Horatio told you though."Well, he saw me first. I saw him. We smiled, and he greeted me like a cousin.
However, he..then asked me one thing. One thing which I cannot exactly say, for it goes against my oath of honesty.
What (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4653095#msg4653095) I can say, is that scum will never win his hand. The Prince himself knows of this-he is young, yet he is wise in a peculiar way. He is learning, by everyone around him.
And Horatio knows it. That only one of pure heart and clear mind would give the Prince solace-to guide and aid him at this time.
Oh, and we met, by the weed-field. The area, of the rose. We basked in the moonlight, and then I felt sleepy.
[All the PPEs. Nice work Toaster on being scummier. What did you exactly notice-without the assumptions? I can tell that we can't truly recognize each other until..well, something's still going on here.
What is the color of my hair?]
Leafsnail: Eagerly awaiting your notes. Could you explain how you got them?
"Oh yeah, um, she also is verified by one other thing. the only person that died last night was Jim, right? so......y'know, that makes sense. The dirt. >_>
what happened to Jim's ability to kill, if it wasn't used attempting to kill Tiruin? I mean, nobody else has a defense, and I can sorta understand why Jim would think it would work. I mean, Jim's lethal skill was mentioned to be unblockable. so depending on how Tiruin's defense works, it seems like it might have worked regardless, right? I think Jim tried to kill Tiruin, leaving a taste of gravedirt in her mouth, and that Tiruin managed to hold Jim off somehow."
Also, Tiruin has now demonstrated her claimed ability. if Jim didn't try to kill Tiruin last night, where else did Jim's kill go?
My metaphor still stands!
Good point, but you're assuming that she can't be both NK immune and scum.Yeah? And what do you assume, for one of pale touch and rosy-cheek?
Post by: Toaster on October 02, 2013, 12:04:45 pm
However, I don't think it's her. At this point Leafsnail's my best bet. I'm waiting to hear his theory.
In any case, my PM was fairly flavor light in regards to my night action. Five sentences, summed thusly:
You're hard to find.
You're asleep in a laundry basket. I don't want to wake you, so I put the rose in your hand. You grab it and hold hard, even asleep.
I go back to bed.
The rest of this PM is the dream. The rest of the flavor info comes from PM clarification, and I'll have to ask on the hair color.
What makes you think I ended up at someone else? It shouldn't be that hard to tell between the few people that are left.
Post by: Leafsnail on October 02, 2013, 02:17:29 pm
I would like to draw your attention to three pairs of players.
webadict I and Ottofar (the white swan, the black swan)
Me and webadict (black shoes, red shoes)
Lenglon and Toaster (lily, rose)
Substitute in the common colours of lilies and roses and you notice something: there are three pairs, each containing two of the colours red, white and black.
Black, white and red are known to some as the three "universally recognized" colours. That is to say, every culture perceives those three as distinct. They also have similar meanings across all cultures:
Black is primarily associated with death and aging.
Red is primarily associated with sexuality and availability.
White is primarily associated with purity and youth.
This is where the theme of love comes in. Each role in the pairs represents one of these three colours:
webadict I attracted men using her daintiness and purity, always feigning innocence - white.
Ottofar perpetually remembered the death of her lover, and wears clothes to symbolize that to other suitors - black.
I was cursed to walk like an aged, marriageable woman - black.
webadict II was cursed to perpetually dance, and make herself an object of desire where she did not want to be - red.
Toaster gives out flowers in order to help other ladies get laid - red.
Lenglon is clearly lieing due to the lack of detail in her claim, but she acknowledged her flavour involves purity. I suspect that she actually thinks that offering ourselves to the prince like this is highly unseemly for people who should be pure maidens.
So in other words, each pair has two of the colours in opposition to each other. And not they are not only opposed in colour and flavour, but also in alignments. Because, in the same way that one member of the swan pair and one member of the shoes pair was scum, one member of the flowers pair is scum.
Why is it Lenglon and not Toaster? Because there is one mafia member of each colour. Three different colours, three opposed forces saw their interests align and formed a group to get what they wanted. Synthesis.
This theory is a bit changed from how it was previously (I was originally trying to sort every character in the game into colours), but I believe it is the solution to the "who is mafia" problem. I think there are further puzzles to determine who is a third party member, but that isn't important right now (incidentally I think Tiruin is possibly third party - that would mean there would be a white (Griffionday), a red (Tiruin) and a black (NQT) third party, as well as a wildcard in Jim Groovester who fits into all three colours).
I'll post some more about why Lenglon is scum later.
Post by: Toaster on October 02, 2013, 02:40:20 pm
Post by: Leafsnail on October 02, 2013, 02:43:51 pm
Leaf probably killed Jim either way, due to being the only person without verification last night, but if leaf was town-aligned (vig), she'd probably claim it.
Leafsnail: why wont you claim your kill? everyone else is accounted for.The only person with an alibi for last night is Toaster. Why are you trusting Tiruin's word without question? Or pretending your owm whereabouts are remotely verified for that matter.
Is that not odd? Every other player has some kind of explanation for their ability, and this is meant to be a flavour heavy game. Why do you have nothing, not even a throwaway line? It's because your actual flavour relates to the reason you joined the Black Swan, isn't it?So what you're saying is that you are the only player whose role has absolutely no link to their flavour?yes, I am.
I also find it odd that your red counterpart has a clear motive, while you apparently have none.
vote Toaster then.That wouldn't do anything useful. I guess I can though. Toaster.
"I... I mean, I'm not totally sure or anything. but...
well, she can't be in two places at once, right?
well, if she spent all that time with Horatio last night, and yet was asleep when you reached her, and still you and I had enough time afterwards to get some sleep, then she'd have to have been in two places at once to do anything... mean, to Jim last night.
although I still don't understand how Jim died. It... it seemed kinda odd, you know?
and then even after that, did you notice how she has acted today? the way she has been carefully questioning us? It seems to me that she is trying her hardest to investigate with the tools she has available. and I'd say she's doing a pretty fine job of it too."
"Oh yeah, um, she also is verified by one other thing. the only person that died last night was Jim, right? so...You clearly made all this stuff up. If you used all this reasoning to determine Tiruin wasn't scum, you would have stated it with your case on me rather than acting like it was self evident.
what happened to Jim's ability to kill, if it wasn't used attempting to kill Tiruin? I mean, nobody else has a defense, and I can sorta understand why Jim would think it would work. I mean, Jim's lethal skill was mentioned to be unblockable. so depending on how Tiruin's defense works, it seems like it might have worked regardless, right? I think Jim tried to kill Tiruin, leaving a taste of gravedirt in her mouth, and that Tiruin managed to hold Jim off somehow."
The real reason you marked Tiruin as town is that you forgot to think from a townie perspective.
Good point, but you're assuming that she can't be both NK immune and scum.A really strange assumption considering that "NK-immune mafia member" is a really common role that appears in Paranormal.
I'll move onto Tiruin's questions in my next post.
Post by: Leafsnail on October 02, 2013, 03:03:36 pm
You'll pardon me if I call that a stretch. Let's go ahead and write off your third party color people and Jim as all three. Then what color are ZU, Solifuge, and TWS?I moved away from the "everyone has a colour" theory after I realized it made more sense if all three mafia members were contained within the colour-pairs. ZU and Solifuge form a secondary puzzle with Jim Groovester, and TWS links me and webadict II. They're not a direct part of the colours puzzle.
Although if they were they'd probably be white, red, white/black (depending on TWS's age, her having an old mother may mean she is quite old too).
Actually..yeah. I'm prodding you on why you're being vague there. Garbled whatnow?What I mean is that I previously hadn't thought of any explanation for the "brown duck" thing, and then thought of one. Remember that Griffionday only heard it in rumours. The rumour evolved from:
"Hey, did you hear Tiruin's friends with the Black Swan?"
via
"Hey, did you hear Tiruin's friends with... uh... I dunno, some kind of darkish bird... a brown duck?"
to arrive at
"Did you hear Tiruin's now a brown duck? Darndest thing I ever heard."
It doesn't really fit the rest of the puzzle though. I think it's more likely you're some kind of third party at this point.
So your vote counts as a vote, technically in the hammer terms, but it also counts as a minus vote to the person at hand.That's the point I was making, yeah. And it's still a vote even if it's a negative one, so I don't think Vector was wrong to make it 4 votes to hammer yesterday.
Err, mine does too, because my self-esteem and all this crazy things called life, y'know?What I mean is that every other player in the game seems to have some kind of flavour reason for having the ability that they do.
Also how is it absolutely not linking, Leafsnail?
webadict I had a rival she wanted to get rid of, so she had a one-shot kill.
Griffionday was trying to find his lover, so he had an action to try and identify her.
Ottofar looked similar to an innocent player, so inspections on her returned innocent.
Solifuge was some kind of defensive assassin, so she got to kill.
notquitethere's abilities were strange, but they were named in a way that clearly linked to his role.
zombie urist was there to protect the goddess, so she could protect people.
griffinpup was a musician so his abilities were songs, and as everyone heard the music everyone was affected by the actions.
webadict II distracted people with her dancing or feet.
Jim Groovestar got information and other effects from her dreams.
Tiruin claims to be able to fight off attackers due to being generally feisty and experienced.
Toaster claims to give roses to people to make them more desirable (which fits with the theme of roses).
I am claiming that the massive boost to my self-esteem from being able to walk normally increased my charisma and vote to two, and then the loss of it caused me to become moody and difficult to agree with, pushing me down to -1 vote.
Lenglon is claiming that she is a lily. And that she can follow people. Because, you know, lilies are famous for following people around. Also she thinks the Prince is pure, or something.
Can you see why I'm saying Lenglon's role has no thematic coherence if compared to every other claimed and revealed role in the game? My contention is that Lenglon's flavour outs her as a mafia member, which is why it seems so sparse.
Post by: Leafsnail on October 02, 2013, 03:05:42 pm
Post by: Leafsnail on October 02, 2013, 04:25:58 pm
The reason is that I didn't really notice the colour symbolism until I read about webadict's white shoes being stained red with blood.
Post by: Tiruin on October 02, 2013, 06:41:12 pm
I had thought about colors far back in the game, but did not..know it meant colors in that form.
That's..darn, I was only looking at the superficial layer. No I'm not a third-party.
Quote
Tiruin claims to be able to fight off attackers due to being generally feisty and experienced.*cough* "It's in the essence of fighting wherein one learns that preservation and safety are the core virtues, and never to end another's life. Also, I'm...not really feisty. Just a simple person."
...Something's definitely not right. Either in the argument words, or something else. I really wish I could understand my intuition. Will reply later after reviewing everything. (That means full reply ~13 hours from now).
I was cursed to walk like an aged, marriageable woman - black.Strange. As opposed to me, what is the difference between Lenglon & Toaster there?
webadict II was cursed to perpetually dance, and make herself an object of desire where she did not want to be - red.
Toaster gives out flowers in order to help other ladies get laid - red.
Lenglon is clearly lieing due to the lack of detail in her claim, but she acknowledged her flavour involves purity. I suspect that she actually thinks that offering ourselves to the prince like this is highly unseemly for people who should be pure maidens.
Also, web's initial color was white. The red stains must be something from recent note.
Vector: What type of shoes did okami-no-rei wear?
Quote
The only person with an alibi for last night is Toaster. Why are you trusting Tiruin's word without question? Or pretending your owm whereabouts are remotely verified for that matter.Why is Toaster the only one with an alibi? Anything that gives us, not having an alibi?
Initial extension to 7:00 PM Monday, October 9th (-8GMT) granted. Two votes required for further extension to 7:00 PM Wednesday, October 11th (-8GMT).So we can vote to our heart's content, and the day will end on either a shorten massvote, or timer?
Soft hammers have been lifted for today. There's no way to compute them gracefully without confirming or denying someone's role, and we're at 4P anyway.
Please extend this out, everyone.
Post by: Tiruin on October 02, 2013, 06:57:55 pm
Actually, I forgot to answer how Tiruin's question of why I only just realized this.So how did this bring about that revelation on the intrinsic color properties there? It's...very sensible that I'm hitting myself for not noticing it earlier despite my thoughts hanging on that note for 3 darn days.
The reason is that I didn't really notice the colour symbolism until I read about webadict's white shoes being stained red with blood.
On that note: What's your take on the whole 'elegant/rough' way to solve said puzzle?
Lastly for now: Comparing Lenglon to how she performed in D2 (pre-Soli), could you detail how--because the theory is still fallible in the way that it stands in linking notes and interpretation there--she is the last scum via the other method? The realistic method?
Why am I not scum? Toaster. Leafsnail. I've been wondering why people have been seemingly reluctant to poke on my role or query it since the past days-and only now does a pertinent accusation of...anything (third-party?) come out.
Post by: Leafsnail on October 02, 2013, 07:04:12 pm
Strange. As opposed to me, what is the difference between Lenglon & Toaster there?The difference that makes Lenglon scum is that he's white, the colour which no mafia member has been yet. Or if you're talking about flavour claiming, your role and ability line up in a way that Lenglon's do not.
Also, web's initial color was white. The red stains must be something from recent note.There is maybe something in this, but note web's role PM - his shoes turned red prior to the start of the game. So webadict II did undergo an involuntary transformation from white to red, in the same way as I had one from red to black.
Vector: What type of shoes did okami-no-rei wear?
Lenglon claims he saw Toaster targeting you last night. Three possibilities:
1. Lenglon is town and telling the truth, Toaster actually did target you last night. That means he didn't kill Jim, making him town.
2. Lenglon is mafia. As there is almost certainly only one mafia member left, that would make Toaster not a mafia member.
3. Lenglon is town, but Toaster tricked her through some bizarre ability that renders trackers completely useless.
As long as 3 isn't true (I'm pretty sure it isn't), Toaster isn't the last mafia member. Therefore he has an alibi.
Nobody else has anything of the sort.
Incidentally, note Lenglon's first post of the day. She doesn't actually state who Toaster's target was. That, to me, implies she didn't really track him and was hedging her bets.So how did this bring about that revelation on the intrinsic color properties there? It's...very sensible that I'm hitting myself for not noticing it earlier despite my thoughts hanging on that note for 3 darn days.Think bridal gowns. Wedding nights. I dunno it just clicked somehow. Maybe reading Berserk helped.On that note: What's your take on the whole 'elegant/rough' way to solve said puzzle?Elegant = solve the puzzle
Rough = identify the mafia members and lynch them
Or, possibly, what I arrived at was the "rough" solution, because it requires several people to already be dead. Maybe there's a more elegant solution you could come to with everyone still alive.Lastly for now: Comparing Lenglon to how she performed in D2 (pre-Soli), could you detail how--because the theory is still fallible in the way that it stands in linking notes and interpretation there--she is the last scum via the other method? The realistic method?I don't have time now, but doing a re-read of Lenglon's early game would be valuable. I'll try it tomorrow.Why am I not scum? Toaster. Leafsnail. I've been wondering why people have been seemingly reluctant to poke on my role or query it since the past days-and only now does a pertinent accusation of...anything (third-party?) come out.Process of elimination.
Post by: Leafsnail on October 02, 2013, 07:06:28 pm
Lenglon claims he saw Toaster targeting you last night. Three possibilities:
1. Lenglon is town and telling the truth, Toaster actually did target you last night. That means he didn't kill Jim, making him town.
2. Lenglon is mafia. As there is almost certainly only one mafia member left, that would make Toaster not a mafia member.
3. Lenglon is town, but Toaster tricked her through some bizarre ability that renders trackers completely useless.
As long as 3 isn't true (I'm pretty sure it isn't), Toaster isn't the last mafia member. Therefore he has an alibi.
Nobody else has anything of the sort.
Incidentally, note Lenglon's first post of the day. She doesn't actually state who Toaster's target was. That, to me, implies she didn't really track him and was hedging her bets.
So how did this bring about that revelation on the intrinsic color properties there? It's...very sensible that I'm hitting myself for not noticing it earlier despite my thoughts hanging on that note for 3 darn days.Think bridal gowns. Wedding nights. I dunno it just clicked somehow. Maybe reading Berserk helped.
On that note: What's your take on the whole 'elegant/rough' way to solve said puzzle?Elegant = solve the puzzle
Rough = identify the mafia members and lynch them
Or, possibly, what I arrived at was the "rough" solution, because it requires several people to already be dead. Maybe there's a more elegant solution you could come to with everyone still alive.
Lastly for now: Comparing Lenglon to how she performed in D2 (pre-Soli), could you detail how--because the theory is still fallible in the way that it stands in linking notes and interpretation there--she is the last scum via the other method? The realistic method?I don't have time now, but doing a re-read of Lenglon's early game would be valuable. I'll try it tomorrow.
Why am I not scum? Toaster. Leafsnail. I've been wondering why people have been seemingly reluctant to poke on my role or query it since the past days-and only now does a pertinent accusation of...anything (third-party?) come out.Process of elimination.
Post by: Tiruin on October 02, 2013, 07:11:04 pm
Quote
There is maybe something in this, but note web's role PM - his shoes turned red prior to the start of the game. So webadict II did undergo an involuntary transformation from white to red, in the same way as I had one from red to black.Mhmm? But that argument lies on a tangible reason-something wholly different from the rest which lie on intangible reasons/talents/skills/traits or character/istics.
Quote
Think bridal gowns. Wedding nights. I dunno it just clicked somehow. Maybe reading Berserk helped....I didn't mention this earlier because I thought it would be trivial.
Horatio told me that the 13th bridal gown wouldn't be used.
Quote
Elegant = solve the puzzleWell, seeing previous flavor on how we dealt with the lynch, I'd prefer talking to the Captain of the Guard about the whole matter, and probably complain about his style too. I mean, I did add an addendum to talk up said person, but then it got waived because Horatio.
Rough = identify the mafia members and lynch them
Or, possibly, what I arrived at was the "rough" solution, because it requires several people to already be dead. Maybe there's a more elegant solution you could come to with everyone still alive.
Also the Rough way indeed solves it, but how we're going about is..just in the same. I recall a post back then detailing that the Rough way was pretty much 'kill everyone' pertaining to how scum were detailed.
Quote
Process of elimination.:I
Since when?
...Damnit it's making a heck lot of sense more here now. Ughghg studies messing up my analysis skills-in-that-matter. >_>
Post by: Lenglon on October 02, 2013, 08:30:32 pm
Post by: Tiruin on October 02, 2013, 10:01:09 pm
Lenglon: Why'd you choose Toaster despite the last posts you said before day end (which I..missed. Was thinking along memory back there hence my question to Toaster about where he said so) and not me?
Leafsnail
Missed this.
Huh, townie perspective, hmm?"I... I mean, I'm not totally sure or anything. but...
well, she can't be in two places at once, right?
well, if she spent all that time with Horatio last night, and yet was asleep when you reached her, and still you and I had enough time afterwards to get some sleep, then she'd have to have been in two places at once to do anything... mean, to Jim last night.
although I still don't understand how Jim died. It... it seemed kinda odd, you know?
and then even after that, did you notice how she has acted today? the way she has been carefully questioning us? It seems to me that she is trying her hardest to investigate with the tools she has available. and I'd say she's doing a pretty fine job of it too.""Oh yeah, um, she also is verified by one other thing. the only person that died last night was Jim, right? so...You clearly made all this stuff up. If you used all this reasoning to determine Tiruin wasn't scum, you would have stated it with your case on me rather than acting like it was self evident.
what happened to Jim's ability to kill, if it wasn't used attempting to kill Tiruin? I mean, nobody else has a defense, and I can sorta understand why Jim would think it would work. I mean, Jim's lethal skill was mentioned to be unblockable. so depending on how Tiruin's defense works, it seems like it might have worked regardless, right? I think Jim tried to kill Tiruin, leaving a taste of gravedirt in her mouth, and that Tiruin managed to hold Jim off somehow."
The real reason you marked Tiruin as town is that you forgot to think from a townie perspective.
All this accusation in that paragraph is vague. How is it all made up? The justification for the Jim-kill makes sense, and I can't see how you're relating it to yourself for some subtle reason.
You accuse the essence of forgetting a certain perspective, yet fail to expound on said perspective.
What gives.
Also consider that Lenglon's opposite role, Toaster, claimed to have entertaining flavour. It would be odd for Vector to make one role in a pair have funny flavour that links to its role and the other one to have basically nothing.What entertaining flavor? Toaster. You too.
Toaster: What is your attraction to the prince? Same for Leafsnail/Lenglon.
Post by: Lenglon on October 02, 2013, 10:42:25 pm
LenglonThat speech was an attempt to make both of you fall into a WIFOM-esque situation, where if you were scum, you wouldn't be sure if I was going to track you or not, and not know if you could use your kill safely or not. If you (Tiruin) were scum, then you'd probably still expect me to track you, and so you'd try to kill me overnight, then frame Toaster for the kill today. and If Toaster were scum, then Toaster would expect me to track her, and would try to kill me overnight, and claim that she gave you a rose Triuin, but that you didn't get any flavor response to it. I thought that Jim was a JOAT, and would use her protect on me. by baiting both the kill and a protect, I thought that we'd have an extra day, because we'd have a night with no deaths, and be able to safely lynch toaster, and even if we were wrong, still have one last night to try to get it right, and that the last four of us would be Jim, Me, Tiruin, and Leaf. Jim could investigate one of you, and I could track the other. guaranteeing that one of us would find the killer on the last night, no matter who died in the night, for a town win, by either finding the killer directly, or by proving that everyone else was town. I picked Toaster as the one to actually follow because Jim's plan made sense.Lenglon: Why'd you choose Toaster despite the last posts you said before day end (which I..missed. Was thinking along memory back there hence my question to Toaster about where he said so) and not me?
Post by: Tiruin on October 02, 2013, 11:21:06 pm
That's..sensible. Though, why isn't Leafsnail factored in there? He's-was..squeaky clean to you back then?
Post by: Lenglon on October 03, 2013, 12:11:57 am
however, for Leaf, I kinda figured that it didn't matter what I said or did, he'd do whatever he was going to do.
my guess was he'd kill one of our information-gatherers, either Jim or me. I was hopeing he'd pick me to die, and that I'd be protected, but...
well, it didn't seem to matter what I said or did in any case, I had better people to track, and I couldn't affect his decision.
so I didn't worry about it.
Post by: Vector on October 03, 2013, 12:18:25 am
It's sad, and I'm pretty glad I can talk about it with you other three and no other guard or servant around.
...
(It's really weird how we're all always left without mention in the flavor. :( )
You head for the guardhouse to find the Captain of the Guard, Adolf Alexandersen. The guardhouse is a dank stone building divided into chambers; it has its own mess hall, armory, and a barracks lined with unmade beds and the whiff of horses, whores, and leather. Alexandersen, a massive bear of a man, sits sharpening a knife. The Prince, fine blade at his hip, armored with gauntlets, greaves, and brigandine, stands over him.
"Captain Alexandersen, you are in dereliction of duty," he snarls. "Why were no guards posted to my bedchamber last night?"
"You're whining over nothing again--if you'll pardon my coarse language, sire," says Alexandersen, tugging at his forelock with a mailed paw. He doesn't look up from his dagger and whetstone. "You'll have to excuse my common country ways."
"Why were no guards posted, Captain?"
"My men were walking the halls and keeping watch in the towers," he says sourly. "You're alive, aren't you? What have you got to complain about?"
"I woke last night and--I went to the kitchens for, uh, a tankard of milk, and saw not a soul. No wonder we've seen so many deaths of late. You have been shirking, Alexandersen!"
"You would, wouldn't you," says Alexandersen, peering at his blade and spitting on a smudge. "Funny how that happens. See, me and my men haven't eaten in two days, and I say it's lucky for you we're here at all, protectin' the lady folks so you can keep playing at being King 'stead of wading cuisse-deep in blood like the rest of us."
"The hunters were to return yesterday! I am not to blame for the game being poor."
"Your Uncle Claudius--now there was a man for you. Pity your brother murdered him. Now you--well, you'll excuse me if I say it straight out, sire: you're a coward without the balls to cut your own apples, let alone fuck Fortinbras back to Norway."
There is a shocked silence, in which you edge a little closer to the door and hope no one notices your presence. The Prince puts his hand to the gilded hilt of his sword.
"Go on, woman. Draw your sticker and prove me wrong. But we were waiting here for your brothers' return, and now that both are pushin' daisies and we're left with you--well. Your hunters won't be returning. We guardsmen're just here to protect the ladyfolks until they can go. They got stuff to gather together."
"But they have been dying on your watch," says the Prince. All the blood has left his face.
"Not your stable of witches." Alexandersen roots around for a bit of old meat in his back teeth. He flicks it on the floor. "The goodwives and ladies in waiting who actually run this place. You see, Prince, word is going to get up north soon enough, and when the good men of the border guard hear of your reign--if you can call this that--they'll be returning to collect their dues. Who cares if you have a few assassins running loose? Your mistresses are probably better off dead anyhow."
The Prince draws his rapier and presses the point to the hollow of Alexandersen's throat. The Captain waits. He looks bored.
"I may have been weak before," growls the Prince, "but something about you arouses the wolf in me. As per tradition, the coronation demands a debt in blood. You shall have the honor of being the first sent to Mother Death's capable arms."
The barracks door opens.
"Sigfred Hamletsen!" roars Horatio, breaking into a run. He takes the Prince by both shoulders and pulls him away. "You f--I've been looking for you everywhere!"
"Remove your hands from our royal person," says Sigfred. His hand tightens on the hilt.
Horatio lets go.
"Sire," he says, peering at the floor, "I have organized the reports on the royal treasury that you requested. They await your inspection in the solar."
"I'll read them in the undercroft." He tries to sheathe his blade and has to try again for the trembling in his hands. Alexandersen laughs and returns to polishing his knife.
"As you wish, my liege."
"Captain Alexandersen, I hope for your sake that the sunset finds you in a sweeter temper," the Prince says, and takes his leave. Horatio lingers.
"What did you say to him?"
"The truth. Move along, sodomist."
"I bid you a most pleasant midday," Horatio says coldly, and departs on the Prince's heels. He passes you at the door, grimaces magnificently, but says nothing.
Entering the room and approaching the Captain, you recognize the knife in Alexandersen's hand as the acolyte's misericorde; and beneath his muddy boots, a bloodstained carpet, blue-green, the color of water. Your belly runs cold.
"Well, hello there," says Adolf Alexandersen. "What's a pretty girl like you doing here with so many hungry men about?"
Post by: Lenglon on October 03, 2013, 12:06:18 pm
Ok, so if I'm seeing this right, Leaf, you have four main parts to your case.
1) I didn't explicitly state where toaster went in my first post of the day.
that post was at 3:30AM, and I was tired, distracted, and very busy. Tiruin can confirm that I was focused on other things at the time. anyway, because I couldn't trust my own judgement at the time, I said as little as possible. I didn't want to say anything at all, in keeping with my normal policy regarding tracking someone who didn't go to a kill(see the first time I tracked toaster, and when I claimed that), but Tiruin's vote gave you the opportunity to hammer, assuming you still had the double-vote you had before, so I had to say something at the time or risk throwing the game. The change to how your vote works has never been demonstrated, and in fact, ever since you claimed that change, you haven't voted at all, with the exception of today's vote on toaster, which I had to prompt you to do, even though you claimed to have a protective vote and should have been using it on the confirmed townie at all times.
and by the way, speaking of being slow to dispense flavor:
Leafsnail what WERE you doing last night if you didn't kill Jim?
2)Web was bussed.
Why would Web want to be bussed in the first place? It was Day four, MYLO, and the only mafia that died had died to a modkill. Notice that yesterday, my accusation of him happened right at the start of the day, as my first post of the day, when there wasn't even any pressure on him, and I brought the main piece of evidence to the table with me that got him lynched. your theory requires that Web thought it was a better idea to throw himself under the bus at MYLO than to simply win on the spot. IF I had been lying about tracking someone, then all I'd have to do is claim to have followed Tiruin or you, since neither of you visit people anyway.
3)Colors
I think that's quite a bit of a stretch there, and the color that stands out to me the most is the red herring all over the place. even your "purity" thing makes no sense. take a look at Ottofar's flavor. Her motives were as "pure" as they get, it was even a major point how her role power worked, and yet she was the "black" swan. what about the white dresses most of us wore at the start? what about the black dresses we're all wearing now? there's red, white, and black all over the place, not just the arbitrary parts of each person's flavor you picked for scrutiny, and it doesn't fit into a coherent pattern. Stop eating the red herring.
4)I don't have flavor for my role
I really didn't have any flavor for my role, and how it connects to my character, so I ended up having to PM Vector and ask what that is about. Basically, I don't stand out all that much. I don't have any really unique skills, or awesome talents, or whatever, but I'm doing what I can to make the most of what I can do. So I follow people. It's... It's not even really a talent. I just don't stand out very much.
Post by: Leafsnail on October 03, 2013, 03:15:36 pm
Mhmm? But that argument lies on a tangible reason-something wholly different from the rest which lie on intangible reasons/talents/skills/traits or character/istics.Having shoes permanently cursed to your feet is a trait.
...I didn't mention this earlier because I thought it would be trivial.That isn't what I meant really. The 13th bridal gown probably wasn't used because ZU refused to change.
Horatio told me that the 13th bridal gown wouldn't be used.
Since when?Since I identified Lenglon as the last mafia member.
Huh, townie perspective, hmm?I thought this was a pretty common tell. Think about it. If Lenglon actually thought through all of those reasons before she said that I was the only possible killer, then she would've posted them then. Thus, it is clear that she simply panicked in response to the question and decided to retroactively make up a bunch of reasons.
All this accusation in that paragraph is vague. How is it all made up? The justification for the Jim-kill makes sense, and I can't see how you're relating it to yourself for some subtle reason.
You accuse the essence of forgetting a certain perspective, yet fail to expound on said perspective.
What gives.
The lack of townie perspective is my alternative hypothesis to "Lenglon totally had a tonne of reason for thinking Tiruin was town but for some reason decided not to post any of it, while still relying on the conclusion that Tiruin was town in his statement". She already knew that you're not a mafia member, and forgot that a town player wouldn't.
Huh, townie perspective, hmm?What entertaining flavor? Toaster. You too.He talked about pollination being used as a euphemism for sex during his claim
Toaster: What is your attraction to the prince? Same for Leafsnail/Lenglon.I was able to dance for the first time in years when I arrived here, and fell in love with him while doing so. The fact that he's the only man who has even considered marrying me in ages probably helps.
no, he wasn't, Leaf honestly was my 2nd pick for scum after Toaster. You've been pretty consistantly "feeling" like an ally here, and Jim was confirmed as town -.-So you thought I was scum but I wasn't worth tracking because...?
however, for Leaf, I kinda figured that it didn't matter what I said or did, he'd do whatever he was going to do.
my guess was he'd kill one of our information-gatherers, either Jim or me. I was hopeing he'd pick me to die, and that I'd be protected, but...
well, it didn't seem to matter what I said or did in any case, I had better people to track, and I couldn't affect his decision.
so I didn't worry about it.
I'll make another post for the big Lenglon one.
Post by: Toaster on October 03, 2013, 03:28:41 pm
webadict I <-> Ottofar
zombie urist -> Jim Groovester <- Solifuge
Griffionday -> Tiruin
Toaster -> NQT <- Lenglon
Leafsnail -> TWS <- webadict II
I don't think this is useful any more, but here it is. As for Love and Synthesis, maybe it has to do with the chats that formed when we figured out the connection?
Leaf: Did Web say anything useful in your chat?
I'm mid-reread of this game, but don't have time to finish it right now.
Tiruin: The Prince reminds me of sunshine, and flowers like sunshine. Leaf got it right on my flavor humor- that, plus the naive wording of someone who clearly doesn't understand human society is funny.
Lenglon: What is your attraction to the prince?
Post by: Leafsnail on October 03, 2013, 03:52:05 pm
webadict didn't really say anything of value.
1) I didn't explicitly state where toaster went in my first post of the day.Firstly, there is no point at all in me voting a confirmed townie, because they are not going to be lynched regardless. My vote is useful for players who are likely to be lynched, but who are actually town. There was no such player yesterday, because webadict was so clearly mafia.
that post was at 3:30AM, and I was tired, distracted, and very busy. Tiruin can confirm that I was focused on other things at the time. anyway, because I couldn't trust my own judgement at the time, I said as little as possible. I didn't want to say anything at all, in keeping with my normal policy regarding tracking someone who didn't go to a kill(see the first time I tracked toaster, and when I claimed that), but Tiruin's vote gave you the opportunity to hammer, assuming you still had the double-vote you had before, so I had to say something at the time or risk throwing the game. The change to how your vote works has never been demonstrated, and in fact, ever since you claimed that change, you haven't voted at all, with the exception of today's vote on toaster, which I had to prompt you to do, even though you claimed to have a protective vote and should have been using it on the confirmed townie at all times.
Secondly, I don't understand what you are saying. Were you worried you'd write down the wrong name by accident or something?
and by the way, speaking of being slow to dispense flavor:Nothing, because I have no night action. I claimed my flavour at the start of my first post today.
Leafsnail what WERE you doing last night if you didn't kill Jim?
2)Web was bussed.There was no clear mislynch target for day four, so getting one mafia member lynched while making sure the other didn't makes sense. In any case, webadict made a claim that guaranteed his death. I think it's more likely he did that deliberately than accidentally.
Why would Web want to be bussed in the first place? It was Day four, MYLO, and the only mafia that died had died to a modkill. Notice that yesterday, my accusation of him happened right at the start of the day, as my first post of the day, when there wasn't even any pressure on him, and I brought the main piece of evidence to the table with me that got him lynched. your theory requires that Web thought it was a better idea to throw himself under the bus at MYLO than to simply win on the spot. IF I had been lying about tracking someone, then all I'd have to do is claim to have followed Tiruin or you, since neither of you visit people anyway.
3)ColorsYour interpretation of Ottofar's flavour is absolutely bizarre. Read the first paragraph - "strong, intelligent, solemn, delicate, clear-sighted", "lively mind and clever conversation". Does that read pure, innocent maiden to you? Also note that her rolepower occurs because she looks like her sister, and that has nothing to do with her being pure.
I think that's quite a bit of a stretch there, and the color that stands out to me the most is the red herring all over the place. even your "purity" thing makes no sense. take a look at Ottofar's flavor. Her motives were as "pure" as they get, it was even a major point how her role power worked, and yet she was the "black" swan. what about the white dresses most of us wore at the start? what about the black dresses we're all wearing now? there's red, white, and black all over the place, not just the arbitrary parts of each person's flavor you picked for scrutiny, and it doesn't fit into a coherent pattern. Stop eating the red herring.
Ottofar is a widow who still mourns her dead lover. She wears clothes that symbolize death. So she is black, and I don't think you can reasonably come to any other conclusion.
The fact that the clothes we wore match the colours and meanings involved in the puzzles (white dresses for us clearly represented our bridal purity, black dresses were to commemorate death) shows that it was Vector attempting to push us towards what the puzzle actually was.
Also, saying that this is a "red herring" (ie, a false clue deliberately planted by Vector) contradicts your suggestion that I am entirely tilting at windmills. In any case, I haven't heard anything even approaching a suggestion of what the puzzle could be from anyone else.
4)I don't have flavor for my roleHow does being a link to having no unique skills? How does having no unique skills link to being a tracker? This answer only raises more questions.
I really didn't have any flavor for my role, and how it connects to my character, so I ended up having to PM Vector and ask what that is about. Basically, I don't stand out all that much. I don't have any really unique skills, or awesome talents, or whatever, but I'm doing what I can to make the most of what I can do. So I follow people. It's... It's not even really a talent. I just don't stand out very much.
I'll also point you towards Toaster's claim. It is very strange how much less information you are able to give about your flavour than Toaster is (even though you are both in a similar position), and how the information you have given doesn't seem to make much sense at all.
Post by: Tiruin on October 03, 2013, 06:37:16 pm
I'll also point you towards Toaster's claim. It is very strange how much less information you are able to give about your flavour than Toaster is (even though you are both in a similar position), and how the information you have given doesn't seem to make much sense at all....Toaster had 5 total sentences as he claimed. Lenglon claimed process of elimination in watching Toaster's snoopy snooping.
So how doesn't it not make sense? What doesn't make sense is how I got the taste of dirt, yet she gave a reasonable idea right darn there to explain Jim's...being Jim'd.
So either you're lying on doing nothing (and withholding vote as you still have 2 votes) and abstaining from voting yesterday
There was no clear mislynch target for day four, so getting one mafia member lynched while making sure the other didn't makes sense. In any case, webadict made a claim that guaranteed his death. I think it's more likely he did that deliberately than accidentally.Tiruin narrows her eyes at this statement.
"That is illogical. A cursed dancer has nothing to lose-and doing it deliberately doesn't even go anywhere near any kind of match. What suspicion was on Okami beforehand? What did she have to lose? What pressure was on her to even so such?
"The only logical conclusion I can see is that the more 'useful' target was another mafioso--and said one, being a highly voted suspect in days prior."
Of which I lack the punchline to go back and check because darn work and stress. x_x
and by the way, speaking of being slow to dispense flavor:Nothing, because I have no night action. I claimed my flavour at the start of my first post today.
Leafsnail what WERE you doing last night if you didn't kill Jim?
I did nothing. I had a bad dream about cheating on my lover before waking up and feeling like the Prince could never love me because of my melancholy.
..Problem is that this is a past tense format.
As in, you're...already cheating on your lover if you're here. And he 'couldn't love you because of x and y' is so much of an understatement.
Technically, you did say flavor. You just said the generality of it.
Expound.
Mini-puzzle my backhand.
That chart does lay it out pretty nicely. Griffionday/Tiruin and JG/ZU/Soli form their own mini-puzzles, relating to third parties. Then the three colour pairs provide the main meat of the puzzle, with TWS and NQT being there to help us realize that the links exist (otherwise the puzzle would be basically unsolvable if the Lenglon and webadict II decided to falseclaim). No link is needed between webadict I and Ottofar because they already knew about each other.
webadict didn't really say anything of value.
I had nothing. nothing nothing Noooooothing to know about Griffy back there, at all. No hint. No tip. No literature-based foreshadowing in my flavor that touched the young prince. Sure, I talked to Horatio about it, but he said nothing nor hinted anything about a younger Prince at all. Vice versa goes on him-reading his role, he knew nothing (ok, my past and me :I) about me--he knew the details, but not who I was, just who would match with his inspect. And by inspect, I thoroughly mean flavor-inspector given how he'll inspect people.
On the ZU/Soli/Jim thing? Sure, the two acolytes would've said stuff about their flavor--just as ZU did back in the day who had detailed his everything. Jim was town--any townie would've revealed bad stuff..something which ZU knew and said. However said puzzle didn't come to fruition unless Jim was actually a walking time bomb who shouldn't say that because either she's restricted to, or its a trivial notion due to all the vagueness about our knowledge on her.
Which reminds me about how you persecuted him: Base reason being only one line when I asked - that you thought he was scum.
When asked on that, you complained to having to list it down again. I want you to do that now on grounds of total doubt -- list what he said did make him scum as opposed to what he's revealing at the time that doesn't.
If you have problems with my reasons for voting ZU then state them rather than forcing me to pointlessly repost the same things again.Because it isn't pointless when I ask again on the matter despite it looking similar to being pointless. Viewpoint difference.
Toasterr
Chatswhatnow?webadict I <-> Ottofar
zombie urist -> Jim Groovester <- Solifuge
Griffionday -> Tiruin
Toaster -> NQT <- Lenglon
Leafsnail -> TWS <- webadict II
I don't think this is useful any more, but here it is. As for Love and Synthesis, maybe it has to do with the chats that formed when we figured out the connection?
QuoteProcess of elimination.:I
Since when?
And I take it you're thoroughly convinced that you aren't accepting any doubts or speculation on the matter-especially when said matter has its crux in how you relate x and y? What do all those colors pertain to, as a categorical generality?Since when?Since I identified Lenglon as the last mafia member.
Oh, and where exactly in her claim (please link) did she go wrong? Sure, its vague-but I don't think I received an answer from you about how she did Soli in without chance of backlash? The kill-flavor matches the deed.
He did?...I didn't mention this earlier because I thought it would be trivial.That isn't what I meant really. The 13th bridal gown probably wasn't used because ZU refused to change.
Horatio told me that the 13th bridal gown wouldn't be used.
*ahem sorry can't check back and it would be best if you link it thanks and sorry! D:*
I mean, she did?
> In ages? Why?Toaster: What is your attraction to the prince? Same for Leafsnail/Lenglon.I was able to dance for the first time in years when I arrived here, and fell in love with him while doing so. The fact that he's the only man who has even considered marrying me in ages probably helps.
> You were able to dance because...?
But-..Mhmm? But that argument lies on a tangible reason-something wholly different from the rest which lie on intangible reasons/talents/skills/traits or character/istics.Having shoes permanently cursed to your feet is a trait.
I..
...
But they were cursed because of what she did!
..Hmph. Makes sense. However in that context-you also did something with a certain other someone which did refer directly to love and its devious fault on love. Wouldn't you agree on that?
Lenglon
4)I don't have flavor for my roleCould you re-detail your role again? All I remember (poor be my memory) was that you gained sentience, and was quitely confused because you still remember being a plant. In which the only claim I do remember is that you tried to find soil N1 and was disappointed.
I really didn't have any flavor for my role, and how it connects to my character, so I ended up having to PM Vector and ask what that is about. Basically, I don't stand out all that much. I don't have any really unique skills, or awesome talents, or whatever, but I'm doing what I can to make the most of what I can do. So I follow people. It's... It's not even really a talent. I just don't stand out very much.
Oh, and that Soli business.
Back in the day, I was thinking puncture wounds on NQT - the satin toe shoes seem like...the best darn thought there. Unless someone used a knife. :/ Thorns don't seem to be the case in making such a wound..but I don't know anything on how a human-sized plant attacks someone and their distinct marks on human flesh.
Yeah this is me admitting that I've never handled a rose in real life or any kind of thorn-based thingy.
"Well, hello there. What's a pretty girl like you doing here with so many hungry men about?"[/i]Tiruin checks her mind for a list of things to be doing here with so many hungry men about.
Quote
> ExploringThen I must say something that would attract his attention.
> Trying to find out who did such
> Discrepancy with thoughts
> Why does he have a misericorde
> Why is a blood stained carpet..not red?! Did someone bleach it dry?
> Are they cannibals?
> Darn who wouldn't eat anything in 2 days?!
> We must not have flour.
> So then what are the ladies in waiting eating?!
> Does Horatio have a mustache?
> Who is keeping the kitchen!?
> Is Horatio keeping something else from us?
> Must search other girls' rooms. Everything is possible.
What if he says no.
"Curiosity, sir. I've been wondering if you and your men could check the Prince's rooms made for his mistresses. The thirteen invited?" maybe he doesn't know I'm one of them, perhaps?
...He called me pretty~
OK. Focus!
"Because I've heard that one of them is withholding a bit of food. By that, I meant check all those rooms.
"Also why does that carpet have such a colorful nature? What happened to it?
..The same would go for your exotic weapon. Why and where'd you get it?"
please don't notice my obvious semantics on subtly interrogating you my fellow peasant sir.
Inquire to Captain about the carpet, why it became so, why he's holding an acolyte's dagger and how he got it, and why that carpet is specifically bloodstained and now colored like..such.
Also subtly and meekly state that I overheard the conversation, and try to support the Prince's side because he's awesome and on my motive of hating civil war and stuff.
Post by: Toaster on October 03, 2013, 07:03:45 pm
Some things of note from dead chat: TheWetSheep says he was in a chat with Leafsnail and webadict, which isn't a surprise to me since I got a chat with zombie urist midday through D3, and we theorized that Toaster and Lenglon also have a chat. Both him and webadict expressed suspicion of Leafsnail. He also says that in his flavor he was visited by two girls, one who distracted him, one who killed him, and without using weapons.
I haven't had the time to sit down and look at this, but yes, Lenglon and I got a chat D3. We've barely touched it.
I guess I can see how you missed this, since you wouldn't have gotten Quack Chat given your only counterpart was dead.
Post by: Tiruin on October 03, 2013, 07:06:05 pm
And wow. That would pretty muchly be a giant inference.
Because the wincon is to find and get me out, on his side--it doesn't make sense that way.
So..why aren't you talking to Lenglon?
Lenglon: Same query.
Post by: Toaster on October 03, 2013, 07:11:18 pm
Post by: Tiruin on October 03, 2013, 07:12:28 pm
On that reason, then why aren't you asking Lenglon stuff..like why she chose you to follow?
Post by: Toaster on October 03, 2013, 07:18:48 pm
Assuming Jim tried to kill you, did you kill him in response?
Post by: Tiruin on October 03, 2013, 07:23:24 pm
Assuming Jim tried to kill you, did you kill him in response?Assuming he obviously did. No.
Someone of you is lying on their action.
...And really, Toaster? You didn't even ask on that chat in general?
Did you even ask if that chat was safe?
Because you're clear, and Jim was hoping to frame you by hitting me, now that I think of it.
And then someone who isn't me at all killed him. Or on a hilarious and most probably unreal note: Death must keep killing or she'll die..which doesn't explain yon fatal chest wound, and how she got where she got :/
Post by: Leafsnail on October 03, 2013, 07:49:20 pm
Unvote, Leafsnail.
...Toaster had 5 total sentences as he claimed. Lenglon claimed process of elimination in watching Toaster's snoopy snooping.I really do not understand what you are getting at here at all. I am saying that Lenglon's flavour makes no sense at all. He is a lily. He is not good at things. He follows people. He thinks the prince is pure. There is no relation between any of these four things, making it not a credible claim. I am making a comparison to Toaster, who has been able to give a relatively coherent flavour claim.
So how doesn't it not make sense? What doesn't make sense is how I got the taste of dirt, yet she gave a reasonable idea right darn there to explain Jim's...being Jim'd.
So either you're lying on doing nothing (and withholding vote as you still have 2 votes) and abstaining from voting yesterday
I have absolutely no idea how my negative vote could possibly relate to this.
Tiruin narrows her eyes at this statement.Have you heard of WIFOM before? The fact that players would look back and think "What reason would webadict have to organize a bus?" is a reason to organize a bus.
"That is illogical. A cursed dancer has nothing to lose-and doing it deliberately doesn't even go anywhere near any kind of match. What suspicion was on Okami beforehand? What did she have to lose? What pressure was on her to even so such?
"The only logical conclusion I can see is that the more 'useful' target was another mafioso--and said one, being a highly voted suspect in days prior."He wouldn't be able to organize it unless Lenglon was his partner. I guess he might've just snatched the opportunity, but that seems bizarre.
I don't understand what you mean again! Yes it's in the past tense format, because it happened last night. Which was in the past. The cheating on my lover happened years and years before the game started.
..Problem is that this is a past tense format.
As in, you're...already cheating on your lover if you're here. And he 'couldn't love you because of x and y' is so much of an understatement.
Technically, you did say flavor. You just said the generality of it.If you want to waste your time reading about detailed fluff then sure! Vector has already directly told me this line of inquiry is not related to the game.
Expound.
I remembered the moment I decided to be unfaithful (years and years ago), on a summer's day. We were pretending to be friends. I looked at her face, and decided I could have more.
I tried to shake off that feeling, and to keep loving her, but it remained festering inside me. Deep down, I felt dissatisfied.
I began waking up and felt a similar feeling about the Prince, feeling that I would never be able to satisfy him with the terrible melancholic state I was in. I then fully woke up with it still weighing on me (get it like the shoes I wear).
Mini-puzzle my backhand.Yes, you weren't told everything. You had to work some stuff out. That's why it's a puzzle. In your original claim you talked about having loved a foreign prince. That was your clue. Griffionday was told he had to find someone in the castle. That was his clue. If you put the two together, it would become obvious that you are linked.
I had nothing. nothing nothing Noooooothing to know about Griffy back there, at all. No hint. No tip. No literature-based foreshadowing in my flavor that touched the young prince. Sure, I talked to Horatio about it, but he said nothing nor hinted anything about a younger Prince at all. Vice versa goes on him-reading his role, he knew nothing (ok, my past and me :I) about me--he knew the details, but not who I was, just who would match with his inspect. And by inspect, I thoroughly mean flavor-inspector given how he'll inspect people.
On the ZU/Soli/Jim thing? Sure, the two acolytes would've said stuff about their flavor--just as ZU did back in the day who had detailed his everything. Jim was town--any townie would've revealed bad stuff..something which ZU knew and said. However said puzzle didn't come to fruition unless Jim was actually a walking time bomb who shouldn't say that because either she's restricted to, or its a trivial notion due to all the vagueness about our knowledge on her.Yes, ZU and Soli received hints as to the nature of Jim. Jim received some hints as to her own nature too. No, they weren't told anything explicitly. THAT'S WHAT MAKES IT A PUZZLE
Which reminds me about how you persecuted him: Base reason being only one line when I asked - that you thought he was scum.I can't even remember anymore. Again, I ask you to look at the reasons I stated when I voted him and asking me questions about those. If I remember correctly it boiled down to
When asked on that, you complained to having to list it down again. I want you to do that now on grounds of total doubt -- list what he said did make him scum as opposed to what he's revealing at the time that doesn't.If you have problems with my reasons for voting ZU then state them rather than forcing me to pointlessly repost the same things again.Because it isn't pointless when I ask again on the matter despite it looking similar to being pointless. Viewpoint difference.
- mad passivity
- doing absolutely no scumhunting at any point (these were my initial reasons - see "He's being ridiculously passive, I don't think he's even called anyone scum all game.", which is a statement I still fully stand by)
- Solifuge's flavour seemed to imply that his role was anti-town before he fell in love with the Prince. It would have made sense for another incoming agent to not fall in love and remain anti-town.
And I take it you're thoroughly convinced that you aren't accepting any doubts or speculation on the matter-especially when said matter has its crux in how you relate x and y? What do all those colors pertain to, as a categorical generality?I'll accept doubts, but I have yet to see anything even approaching another solution to the puzzle. If you want to make a case for why I am wrong about the puzzle and you are mafia then go ahead.
Oh, and where exactly in her claim (please link) did she go wrong? Sure, its vague-but I don't think I received an answer from you about how she did Soli in without chance of backlash? The kill-flavor matches the deed.
White - purity, youth. Red - sexuality, passion, availability. Black - death, age.
You mean Lenglon's claim? I don't doubt she has some kind of target detection ability (or possibly a role cop). My problem with her claim is the way her flavour doesn't link to her role. That implies to me that she has mafia-ish reasons for her role, that she's afraid to claim.
He did?I can only vaguely remember, but I think ZU confirmed that he was the one wearing a sackcloth in the OP.
*ahem sorry can't check back and it would be best if you link it thanks and sorry! D:*
I mean, she did?
> In ages? Why?Remember my claim? I have cursed (black) iron shoes that made me unable to walk properly, yet alone dance. But when I got here, there was music playing that made my feet feel light again. We now know the source of that music was griffinpup.
> You were able to dance because...?
..Hmph. Makes sense. However in that context-you also did something with a certain other someone which did refer directly to love and its devious fault on love. Wouldn't you agree on that?Yep. My role is clearly meant to have strong parallels with webadict II's, in the same way that webadict I's had them with Ottofar. I suspect Toaster and Lenglon have them too to fit the pattern, but that Lenglon is withholding his.
Post by: Tiruin on October 03, 2013, 08:27:36 pm
My point exactly. It can't even be a bus unless there'd be logical reason behind it--to either make the partner look better, or to perhaps attain an advantage somehow. Web got his x3 blocking skills to kill, and it made sense. What didn't make sense is how it would now be labeled as a bus given that he only needed one more.Tiruin narrows her eyes at this statement.Have you heard of WIFOM before? The fact that players would look back and think "What reason would webadict have to organize a bus?" is a reason to organize a bus.
"That is illogical. A cursed dancer has nothing to lose-and doing it deliberately doesn't even go anywhere near any kind of match. What suspicion was on Okami beforehand? What did she have to lose? What pressure was on her to even so such?"The only logical conclusion I can see is that the more 'useful' target was another mafioso--and said one, being a highly voted suspect in days prior."He wouldn't be able to organize it unless Lenglon was his partner. I guess he might've just snatched the opportunity, but that seems bizarre.
That, and his target is still alive, given that I don't trust that [his] target list..and/or, he's been targeting Toaster.
...However, by due process of elimination, what does factor in that how you/Lenglon related to everyone else back then. There are still holes in the weave, like how Toaster/TWS got switched. This list. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4623149#msg4623149) (Where my suspicion on you partly comes from a double voter being based on someone else's survival...)
...Half of why I'm asking is because suspicion on you and Lenglon. The other half is because I like this certain kind of fluff :II don't understand what you mean again! Yes it's in the past tense format, because it happened last night. Which was in the past. The cheating on my lover happened years and years before the game started.
..Problem is that this is a past tense format.
As in, you're...already cheating on your lover if you're here. And he 'couldn't love you because of x and y' is so much of an understatement.Technically, you did say flavor. You just said the generality of it.If you want to waste your time reading about detailed fluff then sure! Vector has already directly told me this line of inquiry is not related to the game.
Expound.
I remembered the moment I decided to be unfaithful (years and years ago), on a summer's day. We were pretending to be friends. I looked at her face, and decided I could have more.
I tried to shake off that feeling, and to keep loving her, but it remained festering inside me. Deep down, I felt dissatisfied.
I began waking up and felt a similar feeling about the Prince, feeling that I would never be able to satisfy him with the terrible melancholic state I was in. I then fully woke up with it still weighing on me (get it like the shoes I wear).
On that note..you just had a nightmare detailing what just happened years before-something wholly different to what we all experienced: that being horrors in the future/fears. Which..somehow links me to how the other girls had their reasons for wanting the Prince..
Anyway.
Yes, you weren't told everything. You had to work some stuff out. That's why it's a puzzle. In your original claim you talked about having loved a foreign prince. That was your clue. Griffionday was told he had to find someone in the castle. That was his clue. If you put the two together, it would become obvious that you are linked.Slight mishap on detail (ok, HUGE mishap in wording) that I was thinking along the 'Good forces work together and share info' whereas today, the only discrepancies are either:
Lenglon lying about the tracking..in that she is a tracker, but also somehow a killer.
Leafsnail actually having the pro/con with TWS, but not knowing about it (or hinted) and having a kill.
The baseline is whoever killed Jim isn't saying they killed Jim and is making up an alibi on how to kill Jim.
...And look at Toaster's find if you don't believe me. I didn't falcon punch Jim's chest out as defense (post-myclaim) and then decided to lie down in the laundry because MMMM SILK CLOTHING. I still like silk though. No this isn't related to anything. >_>
Actually, I've just thought of an easy solution to this vote thing, if Lenglon is so certain I'm lying. Me and Lenglon can vote for me. Tiruin and Toaster can vote for Lenglon. If I'm lying about my vote being negative, I will lynch myself. If we use a shorten vote (ie, and have someone other than me hammer shorten), there's no way for me to manipulate the vote.Bolded part: That you didn't use it yesterday..being one minor factor.
Unvote, Leafsnail....Toaster had 5 total sentences as he claimed. Lenglon claimed process of elimination in watching Toaster's snoopy snooping.I really do not understand what you are getting at here at all. I am saying that Lenglon's flavour makes no sense at all. He is a lily. He is not good at things. He follows people. He thinks the prince is pure. There is no relation between any of these four things, making it not a credible claim. I am making a comparison to Toaster, who has been able to give a relatively coherent flavour claim.
So how doesn't it not make sense? What doesn't make sense is how I got the taste of dirt, yet she gave a reasonable idea right darn there to explain Jim's...being Jim'd.
So either you're lying on doing nothing (and withholding vote as you still have 2 votes) and abstaining from voting yesterday
I have absolutely no idea how my negative vote could possibly relate to this.
And the second primary factor being |someone lying about what they did| given how Jim supposedly died and me being attacked.
Other comments for later other than I really appreciate the detail and thanks Leafsnail and Lenglon please stop watching kitties at the moment and post thanks despite the day ending one ~week after now (because kittens consume your soul too)
Toaster: Suspects please -- if Lenglon is one, then could you note why she is one despite you having a secretfunflowerchat with her?
Post by: Leafsnail on October 04, 2013, 12:06:23 pm
My point exactly. It can't even be a bus unless there'd be logical reason behind it--to either make the partner look better, or to perhaps attain an advantage somehow. Web got his x3 blocking skills to kill, and it made sense. What didn't make sense is how it would now be labeled as a bus given that he only needed one more.And I fully answered your question: WIFOM. People wouldn't think it was a bus. Therefore people wouldn't think Lenglon was scum. Therefore people wouldn't want to lynch Lenglon. Therefore the mafia would win.
I don't know why you're making a big deal out of "only needed one more". It wasn't guaranteed that there would have been a town lynch on day four without the bussing, particularly because of Lenglon's poor flavour. Mafia players can and do bus each other at lylo if they think that will give them a higher chance of victory.
That, and his target is still alive, given that I don't trust that [his] target list..and/or, he's been targeting Toaster.I don't see what's meant to be suspicious about being a double voter or having a role that depends on someone else's survival. I don't understand what you mean by "got stitched", particularly because you're referring to one person who died (and caused my role to become much weaker) and one person who did not die.
...However, by due process of elimination, what does factor in that how you/Lenglon related to everyone else back then. There are still holes in the weave, like how Toaster/TWS got switched. This list. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4623149#msg4623149) (Where my suspicion on you partly comes from a double voter being based on someone else's survival...)
On that note..you just had a nightmare detailing what just happened years before-something wholly different to what we all experienced: that being horrors in the future/fears. Which..somehow links me to how the other girls had their reasons for wanting the Prince..I had a traumatic dream about the past, and then had it linked to my future fears. There's no real difference at all, it's just that the crux of my role is something that happened in the past.
Slight mishap on detail (ok, HUGE mishap in wording) that I was thinking along the 'Good forces work together and share info' whereas today, the only discrepancies are either:"Somehow"? She is a mafia member. Mafia members generally get a kill in addition to their role action. This is not at all difficult.
Lenglon lying about the tracking..in that she is a tracker, but also somehow a killer.
Leafsnail actually having the pro/con with TWS, but not knowing about it (or hinted) and having a kill.
You could equally say "How can Leafsnail have a double vote, but also a kill". Well actually that would make more sense, considering that most people think double voter (especially a double voter that can completely conceal their role with ease) is a role that mafia members should never have (see: mafiascum, if someone demonstrates that they are a double voter they are generally then marked as confirmed town. Also Xylbot, in which it is a town-only role).
I said quite clearly when claiming that I believed there was another player who my role depended on, due to hints in my role PM. Please don't theorize about my role if you can't even remember what I said.
The baseline is whoever killed Jim isn't saying they killed Jim and is making up an alibi on how to kill Jim.If you believe this then the only possible mafia member is Lenglon, because nobody else has a shaky alibi which they're trying to pretend is absolute.
Bolded part: That you didn't use it yesterday..being one minor factor.I still have no idea how it could possibly relate to Lenglon's flavour claim. If you think my vote still counts double then fine, follow the plan above and I will be lynched.
Again, I put it to you that there was absolutely no possible use for my vote yesterday.
And the second primary factor being |someone lying about what they did| given how Jim supposedly died and me being attacked.I really don't understand why you think it's surprising that someone is lying about having killed someone else in a mafia game. It is a mafia game. The mafia generally has a kill, and wants to not reveal that they have a kill. Because revealing that they have a kill would reveal that they're mafia. Yes?
There's no inconsistency with you being attacked. We know Toaster did the dirt thing, and Jim did the dream attack. There are no unaccounted for actions other than the mafiakill on Jim.
Post by: Lenglon on October 04, 2013, 01:38:23 pm
Lenglon: What is your attraction to the prince?
Lenglon4)I don't have flavor for my roleCould you re-detail your role again? All I remember (poor be my memory) was that you gained sentience, and was quitely confused because you still remember being a plant. In which the only claim I do remember is that you tried to find soil N1 and was disappointed.
I really didn't have any flavor for my role, and how it connects to my character, so I ended up having to PM Vector and ask what that is about. Basically, I don't stand out all that much. I don't have any really unique skills, or awesome talents, or whatever, but I'm doing what I can to make the most of what I can do. So I follow people. It's... It's not even really a talent. I just don't stand out very much.
Oh, and that Soli business.
"Um, lady Leaf? I... I really do just kinda... follow someone around. I don't really have an explanation for why or anything. It's... It's kinda a mundane thing, but I seem to be good at it, I suppose. It's... It's not anything like that! No, I... I just... kinda... do it because I can? Anyway, as for the prince? I love him for his beauty and purity, both of body and soul. his ability to see the good in people hidden beneath the surface. It... It's the most beautiful thing I've ever seen."
Leafsnail:I follow people around, nothing sexual about it, no explanation for why I track people, I love the prince for his beauty and purity.
4)I don't have flavor for my roleIf what you are asking is what the flavor for my following people has been? Up until last night I always watched someone go to their target's room. this time was slightly diffferent, requireing process of elimination. If what you are asking is aspects of me being a lilly? well, N1 I tried to eat dirt with unhappy consequences, and my feet failed at drinking water. N2 my flavor was about the dream Jim gave me, N3 I thought about the implications of eating fruit and debated if it was moral or immoral to do so as a lily (which was kinda weird to read because of my odd speech patterns in my pms), and N4 I had a nightmare of lilies rotting.
I really didn't have any flavor for my role, and how it connects to my character, so I ended up having to PM Vector and ask what that is about. Basically, I don't stand out all that much. I don't have any really unique skills, or awesome talents, or whatever, but I'm doing what I can to make the most of what I can do. So I follow people. It's... It's not even really a talent. I just don't stand out very much.
So..why aren't you talking to Lenglon?I haven't had a reason to do so thus far, everything I have to say I can say publiclly. the only things we've used our chat for was a little investigation into the CLANS (I'm from the LILY CLAN, some other flowers have CLANS, and animals don't have CLANS - Toaster claimed to get basically the same result as I did, both of us had to PM Vector individually for answers, questions asked in the private chat were answered with "huh?" and suchlike). do you have an idea for something we could do that requires private information between the two of us?
Lenglon: Same query.
Post by: Leafsnail on October 04, 2013, 01:43:44 pm
Post by: Lenglon on October 04, 2013, 01:59:06 pm
Actually, I've just thought of an easy solution to this vote thing, if Lenglon is so certain I'm lying. Me and Lenglon can vote for me. Tiruin and Toaster can vote for Lenglon. If I'm lying about my vote being negative, I will lynch myself. If we use a shorten vote (ie, and have someone other than me hammer shorten), there's no way for me to manipulate the vote.Actually, from my viewpoint, you have Schrodinger's vote, being both a double vote and a minus 1 vote until the point that it is observed. I don't know if you're lying or not, and I can't know it, really, until it is demonstrated. As a result I'm taking precautions against either case. your vote or unvote or whatever it is isn't why I think you're scum, it's simply why I didn't want votes lying around for you to hammer in case it is a double-vote. I see no reason to go with your plan.
Unvote, Leafsnail.
I really do not understand what you are getting at here at all. I am saying that Lenglon's flavour makes no sense at all. He is a lily. He is not good at things. He follows people. He thinks the prince is pure. There is no relation between any of these four things, making it not a credible claim. I am making a comparison to Toaster, who has been able to give a relatively coherent flavour claim.So why didn't you say anything on Day 3 when I claimed, assuming you had issues with my claim? this smells like far to strongly of the chamber pot for my liking. (also, why do you insist on using "he"? are you trying to make me mad or something?)
Have you heard of WIFOM before? The fact that players would look back and think "What reason would webadict have to organize a bus?" is a reason to organize a bus.so why are you making it part of your case if you think it's pure WIFOM? You're the one that brought it up, clearly you think it's good evidence. and then your response to "that's crazy, why would he do that?" is that asking the question is inviting WIFOM?? how hypocritical can you get?
And yet there weren't any hints about colors being significant, and in fact there were hints that colors were NOT significant, and you, you are making a point of reading into hints, make a point of the colors. again you speak against yourself.Mini-puzzle my backhand.Yes, you weren't told everything. You had to work some stuff out. That's why it's a puzzle. In your original claim you talked about having loved a foreign prince. That was your clue. Griffionday was told he had to find someone in the castle. That was his clue. If you put the two together, it would become obvious that you are linked.
I had nothing. nothing nothing Noooooothing to know about Griffy back there, at all. No hint. No tip. No literature-based foreshadowing in my flavor that touched the young prince. Sure, I talked to Horatio about it, but he said nothing nor hinted anything about a younger Prince at all. Vice versa goes on him-reading his role, he knew nothing (ok, my past and me :I) about me--he knew the details, but not who I was, just who would match with his inspect. And by inspect, I thoroughly mean flavor-inspector given how he'll inspect people.On the ZU/Soli/Jim thing? Sure, the two acolytes would've said stuff about their flavor--just as ZU did back in the day who had detailed his everything. Jim was town--any townie would've revealed bad stuff..something which ZU knew and said. However said puzzle didn't come to fruition unless Jim was actually a walking time bomb who shouldn't say that because either she's restricted to, or its a trivial notion due to all the vagueness about our knowledge on her.Yes, ZU and Soli received hints as to the nature of Jim. Jim received some hints as to her own nature too. No, they weren't told anything explicitly. THAT'S WHAT MAKES IT A PUZZLE
Do you have any idea why the mechanics of your role changed last night?I suspect because Tiruin wasn't in her room?
Post by: Leafsnail on October 04, 2013, 07:17:15 pm
Actually, from my viewpoint, you have Schrodinger's vote, being both a double vote and a minus 1 vote until the point that it is observed. I don't know if you're lying or not, and I can't know it, really, until it is demonstrated. As a result I'm taking precautions against either case. your vote or unvote or whatever it is isn't why I think you're scum, it's simply why I didn't want votes lying around for you to hammer in case it is a double-vote. I see no reason to go with your plan.There are no hammers today. And you were clearly attempting to make "OMG LEAFSNAIL STILL HAS TWO VOTES" a thing, it's good to see you back away from that so easily.
So why didn't you say anything on Day 3 when I claimed, assuming you had issues with my claim? this smells like far to strongly of the chamber pot for my liking. (also, why do you insist on using "he"? are you trying to make me mad or something?)I'm noticing that you aren't disputing that your claim is wholly implausible, and are instead trying to make an unrelated attack on my play. Yes, I didn't notice that your claim didn't make sense yesterday because I saw two more suspicious targets and decided to focus on them. Yes, if I were a perfect player I would have noticed. No, that doesn't mean your wholly implausible claim is ok. Please try to explain how any aspect of your role links to any other aspect.
I get pronouns wrong sometimes because it takes a while for me to remember genders online.
so why are you making it part of your case if you think it's pure WIFOM? You're the one that brought it up, clearly you think it's good evidence. and then your response to "that's crazy, why would he do that?" is that asking the question is inviting WIFOM?? how hypocritical can you get?Ok, I think you fundamentally misunderstand what the meaning of WIFOM is. I don't really blame you, considering how a lot of players talk. "It's just WIFOM" seems to have become a synonym for "I can't really be bothered to think through your motivations". But it does have an actual meaning - doing something that appears at first glance to be sub-optimal in order to trick other players. That is what I think webadict did, and I think it fits the evidence best. He did something that most players would think unlikely (sacrificing himself with a bus) in order to make his partner appear more town. My evidence for this is the positively suicidal claim he made, and the fact that webadict is not a total moron.
However, I've just realized there's actually a far more compelling reason. griffinpup was a very desirable nightkill target, because he would cause me to lose votes and was pretty much universally regarded as town. However, he had a nightkill blocking ability. That meant that he really needed to be blocked. But if webadict blocked, Lenglon would have to kill. And if Lenglon killed, he wouldn't be able to track. But he had already claimed to be a tracker. How could Lenglon perform the kill, but also have a result to present in the morning?
Answer: claim he followed his buddy.
And yet there weren't any hints about colors being significant, and in fact there were hints that colors were NOT significant, and you, you are making a point of reading into hints, make a point of the colors. again you speak against yourself.Yes there were hints. Such as the bridal dresses. And the funeral dresses. And the roses. And the fact that there are three pairs each involving two of the three colours. What hints were there that the colours were not significant? And for that matter, do you have any idea at all what the puzzle could be if not what I suggested? What hints were there that the mafia members were the black swan and both shoe wearers? Because the way I see it, my theory is by far the most plausible explanation for what the puzzle is.
I suspect because Tiruin wasn't in her room?This explanation does not match what you claimed.
"Anyway, um. you wanted to know how I knew Toaster was looking for you? Well, it took me a little while, but as I watched her she passed by opportunities to go to other people's rooms, and seemed to be searching someone out. so I eventually was able to figure out she was looking for you by process of elimination."What you claimed was that you saw him walking somewhere, but not going into the rooms he passed, and then you broke off your following early
Post by: Leafsnail on October 04, 2013, 09:23:00 pm
Post by: Tiruin on October 04, 2013, 09:25:30 pm
Mod: Votecount/Day End?
Do you have any idea why the mechanics of your role changed last night?What mechanics were those?
Post by: Toaster on October 04, 2013, 09:39:22 pm
No energy for post tonight, and tomorrow looks sketchy as well.
Post by: Leafsnail on October 04, 2013, 09:46:40 pm
Post by: Tiruin on October 04, 2013, 09:50:55 pm
Changing from following someone fully to only following them part of the way. For some reason. And then not having any suspicions about this....Well given how-
Lenglon: COuld you detial how you exactly followed people? The following in this notion somehow seems like its more subjective than not.
..Also to give my piece on it, I really think that's a red herring as given though I've no action (ability-wise), I did do an RP action as Vector did say everything is possible, but not everything possible can lead to the answer.
...So yeah.
There's no inconsistency with you being attacked. We know Toaster did the dirt thing, and Jim did the dream attack. There are no unaccounted for actions other than the mafiakill on Jim.There is, given that Toaster claimed giving a rose. And I'm pretty sure I did not accept it like how he stated such.
..Nor am I even sure that giving someone a rose means shoving dirt up their face. :I
Nor am I sure that the dream attack was directly correlated to my nightmare given how the effects were all in a new paragraph-in semantics this means that the connection of both was...well, I'm siding with Lenglon's note that Jim's gravedirt touch is the most plausible idea.
Lenglon are you sure sure sure that Toaster Toaster Toaster targeted me? Did you see what she was holding?
Post by: Leafsnail on October 04, 2013, 10:07:51 pm
Post by: Lenglon on October 04, 2013, 10:44:17 pm
This right here is why I hate talking to you. You can't read tone to save your life. I was clearly saying that I plan on taking precautions against you still having two votes, and that at day start, when hammers were still available, I didn't want a vote lying around for you to hammer. You're taking that statement and blowing it up into massive proportions, and now you're going to get mad at me for calling you on trying to shove your idiotic words into my mouth. That kind of... bovine fecal matter, is absolutely infuriating. until you can learn how words work, I see no reason to bother humoring your stupidity. If you raise a point worth addressing, I'm sure someone else will mention it.Actually, from my viewpoint, you have Schrodinger's vote, being both a double vote and a minus 1 vote until the point that it is observed. I don't know if you're lying or not, and I can't know it, really, until it is demonstrated. As a result I'm taking precautions against either case. your vote or unvote or whatever it is isn't why I think you're scum, it's simply why I didn't want votes lying around for you to hammer in case it is a double-vote. I see no reason to go with your plan.There are no hammers today. And you were clearly attempting to make "OMG LEAFSNAIL STILL HAS TWO VOTES" a thing
There isn't really much to say, when I say that "I followed X to Y's room", that's almost word for word what my PM says, although N2 it was "found X coming from where Y was sleeping", now that I am going back and double-checking it. I can't get more specific than that without breaking the no quoting mod pms rule. Last night was slightly different, the formula was "I followed X from room to room, and eventually concluded X is searching for Y". Leafsnail seems to be making an issue of this, I think it was simply because you weren't in your room, although I don't know for sure, since I'm not the mod and didn't write the PM. I didn't get any notification of Toaster holding anything as she searched for you, but I also didn't get any notification of her holding anything the first time I followed her, back on night 2, and her night action target (web) didn't die that night either.Changing from following someone fully to only following them part of the way. For some reason. And then not having any suspicions about this....Well given how-
Lenglon: COuld you detial how you exactly followed people? The following in this notion somehow seems like its more subjective than not.
..Also to give my piece on it, I really think that's a red herring as given though I've no action (ability-wise), I did do an RP action as Vector did say everything is possible, but not everything possible can lead to the answer.
...So yeah.There's no inconsistency with you being attacked. We know Toaster did the dirt thing, and Jim did the dream attack. There are no unaccounted for actions other than the mafiakill on Jim.There is, given that Toaster claimed giving a rose. And I'm pretty sure I did not accept it like how he stated such.
..Nor am I even sure that giving someone a rose means shoving dirt up their face. :I
Nor am I sure that the dream attack was directly correlated to my nightmare given how the effects were all in a new paragraph-in semantics this means that the connection of both was...well, I'm siding with Lenglon's note that Jim's gravedirt touch is the most plausible idea.
Lenglon are you sure sure sure that Toaster Toaster Toaster targeted me? Did you see what she was holding?
Post by: Leafsnail on October 04, 2013, 10:58:02 pm
Post by: Leafsnail on October 04, 2013, 11:00:10 pm
Post by: Tiruin on October 04, 2013, 11:05:50 pm
Actually, I've just thought of an easy solution to this vote thing, if Lenglon is so certain I'm lying. Me and Lenglon can vote for me. Tiruin and Toaster can vote for Lenglon. If I'm lying about my vote being negative, I will lynch myself. If we use a shorten vote (ie, and have someone other than me hammer shorten), there's no way for me to manipulate the vote.So what were you trying to prove with this?
Unvote, Leafsnail.
Reading back, I did get your point about hammers confused with Tiruin's constant banging on about the subject, but that isn't an excuse to just continue evading all the points that demonstrate you are mafia...Those points are subjective, as far as I see--you're throwing any theoretically logical point which has derivations on where they come from.
Post by: Vector on October 04, 2013, 11:16:19 pm
Leafsnail - Leafsnail
Tiruin
Lenglon
Toaster
Not voting: Tiruin, Lenglon, Toaster
Day end currently scheduled for Monday at 7:00PM (-8GMT). One vote from Toaster heard for extension. One further vote required for extension to Thursday at 10:00 PM (-8 GMT).
Flavor update will go up tomorrow, probably.
Post by: Lenglon on October 04, 2013, 11:18:01 pm
Leafsnail
sorry, forgot that I hadn't done that yet.
Post by: Leafsnail on October 05, 2013, 07:54:57 am
So what were you trying to prove with this?That I have minus one votes. You kept saying that the fact that I didn't vote yesterday means I must still have two votes. If you think that, ok, then we can easily create a situation where I'll die if I'm lying about it.
...Those points are subjective, as far as I see--you're throwing any theoretically logical point which has derivations on where they come from.Kindof, in that all mafia points are subjective? But they're compelling. Lenglon has a claim that doesn't make any sense, was horrendously passive throughout the vast majority of the game and the game's puzzle directly points towards her being scum. Again, if you disagree with my interpretation of the game's puzzle, can you come up with any flavour or thematic hint at all that both people who wear shoes and the black swan were mafia?
Post by: Toaster on October 05, 2013, 08:58:02 pm
Post by: Vector on October 05, 2013, 08:58:35 pm
Extend. Due to PC issues, a reread can't happen until Monday, and I need to check every day to crack this one.
One vote from a person other than Toaster required to extend to Thursday.
Post by: Leafsnail on October 05, 2013, 08:59:27 pm
Requesting another tally of how many votes are required to extend.
Post by: Tiruin on October 05, 2013, 08:59:52 pm
Wall of text coming up.
Post by: Vector on October 05, 2013, 09:01:03 pm
One more vote from people who are not Leafsnail, Toaster, or Tiruin required to extend to Tuesday
Post by: Leafsnail on October 05, 2013, 09:02:03 pm
Unvote extend
Post by: Vector on October 05, 2013, 09:06:12 pm
Post by: Toaster on October 07, 2013, 02:15:18 pm
Clever, Leafsnail- I was finding it very hard to believe that you could get a more than full reversal of your role power while Web only got a minor penalty to his.
However, on a reread that wasn't giving me much, one thing did stick out like a sore thumb.
Leafsnail:
"I.. I... Um, Lady Web, I... I decided to follow you last night, and, um... I saw you go to Lady sheep's room. Why did you do that?"
Web: Why did you visit Sheep last night?
This is the first post of D4. Why would Scum Lenglon post this and put Scum Webadict in such a terrible spot before anything happens? Scum Lenglon could easily have claimed a track to Griffinpup from anyone else and probably have gotten them lynched. I'm all for scum bussing when it's useful, but I see absolutely no reason for this to happen. This isn't even WIFOM- there's zero gain in a bus at that point in the game.
Tiruin:
3. Either Jim and/or Web has already found out my role.
4. I am not lying-I cannot lie.
What made you say #3?
As for #4, please clearly and unambiguously state that you are town. Would something horrible happen to you if you falsely claimed an alignment?
Lenglon: Why did you track Web N3?
Post by: Lenglon on October 07, 2013, 03:13:46 pm
Lenglon: Why did you track Web N3?
Web sparked my curiosity, and I didn't have a good guess for who was scum. I trusted (and still do trust) my gut read of Tiruin as benevolent, although at the time I thought she was lying about her role. I strongly considered following Leaf, because he had also claimed a role that shouldn't be out and about, a pretty safe claim for scum, and he was giving me a mild scummy vibe, but I found web's refusal to claim more intriguing, and I didn't have a read I felt I could trust on web, mostly because I respected Web's skill at mafia more than my own ability to read people.Maybe I'll be a better target. Maybe I won't. Doesn't really matter if I never reveal my role. I already gave you the name and the flavor, so there's no real excuse for giving my role.And no. I DON'T feel like claiming my role. I don't really care what Vector says. Closing the information gap doesn't mean claiming every single thing. All that does is create targets. I've given everything that was necessary.And you think you'll be a more prominent target..how? If town, refusing to claim makes it all the spicier. Or saltier. Or something of value. If scum...well, that explains itself--though I'm pretty sure Scum Webadict (okami) could come up with a better reason than outright No.
Can you directly claim your role?
I could directly claim my role if I wanted to. But I don't want to. There's no justifiable reason to claim at this moment. I don't get why claiming would be useful for anyone BUT scum.
Post by: Leafsnail on October 07, 2013, 04:32:34 pm
Clever, Leafsnail- I was finding it very hard to believe that you could get a more than full reversal of your role power while Web only got a minor penalty to his.It kindof makes sense if you think about the roles - webadict was happy that the music stopped, while I wasn't.
This is the first post of D4. Why would Scum Lenglon post this and put Scum Webadict in such a terrible spot before anything happens? Scum Lenglon could easily have claimed a track to Griffinpup from anyone else and probably have gotten them lynched. I'm all for scum bussing when it's useful, but I see absolutely no reason for this to happen. This isn't even WIFOM- there's zero gain in a bus at that point in the game.You are calling Lenglon town and refusing to vote for her in spite of her nonsense claim and incredibly passive play throughout the game. If that isn't a gain for scum then what is?
However, I also think you haven't fully considered the situation from Lenglon's point of view. She had no way of knowing whether other people's night actions were confirmable, and if she lied about a townie's action she risked going 2v1 and dying meaninglessly. She also couldn't claim a genuine result because she was performing the kill, and certainly couldn't lie about webadict's action due to the fact that webadict's action is seen by the target. So it's actually the most risk-free option.
Incidentally, if I'm scum, you'd have to make a WIFOM argument about night 3 too. Because that would mean me and webadict decided to kill someone who we knew would make both of our roles weaker.
I strongly considered following Leaf, because he had also claimed a role that shouldn't be out and about, a pretty safe claim for scum, and he was giving me a mild scummy vibe, but I found web's refusal to claim more intriguing, and I didn't have a read I felt I could trust on web, mostly because I respected Web's skill at mafia more than my own ability to read people.If you thought I was scum why weren't you voting me? If you thought webadict's refusal to claim was weird why didn't you say so?
Post by: Tiruin on October 07, 2013, 06:04:51 pm
Incidentally, if I'm scum, you'd have to make a WIFOM argument about night 3 too. Because that would mean me and webadict decided to kill someone who we knew would make both of our roles weaker.Then who killed TWS and why?
Why do you keep on bringing up statements with the feeling of diverting.
Toaster: Full claim. Now. You aren't telling the whole truth about your role.
Also still PFP because finals exams and I hadn't had the courage to say earlier mostly because of whatever is plaguing me right now. >_<
Post by: Tiruin on October 07, 2013, 06:31:01 pm
Give me your whole opinion on the N3 'mis'hap. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4623149#msg4623149)
And then on Web..honest question: could you tell me why he'd say he'd target Toaster? [Your thoughts, ma'am]
Nextly, let's say you're confirmed town on the whole basis of 'doublevoterishtown!'. Could you differentiate your suspect-points on Toaster and Lenglon? Yeah, sure the puzzle singles out people, but this is why I'm asking you all this.
So I guess everyone is waiting for me.#3 - look how Jim guessed my role, then how Webby guessed my role. I'm restating there.
Clever, Leafsnail- I was finding it very hard to believe that you could get a more than full reversal of your role power while Web only got a minor penalty to his.
However, on a reread that wasn't giving me much, one thing did stick out like a sore thumb.
Leafsnail:"I.. I... Um, Lady Web, I... I decided to follow you last night, and, um... I saw you go to Lady sheep's room. Why did you do that?"
Web: Why did you visit Sheep last night?
This is the first post of D4. Why would Scum Lenglon post this and put Scum Webadict in such a terrible spot before anything happens? Scum Lenglon could easily have claimed a track to Griffinpup from anyone else and probably have gotten them lynched. I'm all for scum bussing when it's useful, but I see absolutely no reason for this to happen. This isn't even WIFOM- there's zero gain in a bus at that point in the game.
Tiruin:3. Either Jim and/or Web has already found out my role.
4. I am not lying-I cannot lie.
What made you say #3?
As for #4, please clearly and unambiguously state that you are town. Would something horrible happen to you if you falsely claimed an alignment?
#4...Ok? Why're you asking that?
I am town. I am town. I am tooooooown.
Tiruin looks at the nearest person and blushes. That was awkward screaming it out loud.
But really. Nothing would happen to me if I falsely claimed an alignment (or truly claimed an alignment for you skeptics). "Though it's weird calling ourselves names which we term to for places. Eheh..
"I am town."
Redact extension, didn't notice tat Toaster extended
Post by: Leafsnail on October 07, 2013, 08:11:52 pm
Then who killed TWS and why?Lenglon. Because TWS had a global nightkill blocking ability, and because webadict probably guessed that TWS's death would hurt me more than it would hurt him.
Toaster: Full claim. Now. You aren't telling the whole truth about your role.He has an alibi for last night so he isn't the last mafia member. Stop voting for him.
Leafsnail: Do you firmly believe that the puzzle has everything pointed towards Lenglon? Could you expound, specifically on the pairing system - given how you're apt to announce mechanics along with suppositions and characteristics which match universal viewpoints on color?Yes. Pairing system: There are three pairs of players in this game. They each represent two colours out of the three universally recognized colours. Each pair has a mafia member and a townie. The mafia team has one of each colour.
I am paired with webadict II. This is obvious because our rolename differs only by colour and we have thematic similarities, as well as differences that render us as opposites.
webadict I was paired with Ottofar. That's obvious because their rolenames differ only by colour and they had thematic similarities, as well as differences that render them as opposites.
So, we have a red-black pair, and a white-black pair. Is it unreasonable to suppose that maybe there is also a red-white pair to complete the set? Considering the clear link between Lenglon and Toaster, and the thematic similarities/differences between their roles, and the most common colours/associations of roses and lillies, it's clearly them. Also, the fact that Lenglon's claimed role does not form anything approaching an equal or opposite version of Toaster pretty clearly suggests that she is making it up.
There are also love-related associations with these colours (and I confirmed with Vector that those associations exist in this universe) that make drawing the connection easier but I've already explained that several times.
Anyway, so my ultimate point is that the webadict I/ Ottofar pair was town/scum, the Leafsnail/ webadict II pair is town/scum and so it stands to reason that the Toaster/Lenglon pair is also town/scum due to the established pattern, and the fact that each pair is clearly intended to be "equal and opposite". It seems most likely that the mafia will contain one of each colour due to the synthesis theme which is why it's Lenglon and not Toaster (also, Toaster has an alibi so it is not him).
I'd just like to remind everyone of something:
Give me your whole opinion on the N3 'mis'hap. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4623149#msg4623149)I have no idea what you mean by "mishap". I think that N3 happened as claimed except that Lenglon killed TWS instead of tracking, and webadict targeted TWS.
And then on Web..honest question: could you tell me why he'd say he'd target Toaster? [Your thoughts, ma'am]Yes, because he planned a bus with Lenglon and making a clearly false claim meant less scrutiny would be put on Lenglon's flavourclaim and night action choices. I've explained why bussing webadict is a sensible decision above (it's because Lenglon had to fake a track result).
Nextly, let's say you're confirmed town on the whole basis of 'doublevoterishtown!'. Could you differentiate your suspect-points on Toaster and Lenglon? Yeah, sure the puzzle singles out people, but this is why I'm asking you all this.Toaster has an alibi for last night. He is not a suspect at all, puzzle or not. So everything I'm saying today is pro-Lenglonscum.
I did think Toaster was scum yesterday, but that changed very early in the day because a) he has an alibi and b) the puzzle directly points to him being town.
Post by: Tiruin on October 08, 2013, 01:06:16 am
I know. Let me work.Toaster: Full claim. Now. You aren't telling the whole truth about your role.He has an alibi for last night so he isn't the last mafia member. Stop voting for him.
And you aren't attacking the point being offered as a question at you and instead moving the notion to your viewpoint.This is the first post of D4. Why would Scum Lenglon post this and put Scum Webadict in such a terrible spot before anything happens? Scum Lenglon could easily have claimed a track to Griffinpup from anyone else and probably have gotten them lynched. I'm all for scum bussing when it's useful, but I see absolutely no reason for this to happen. This isn't even WIFOM- there's zero gain in a bus at that point in the game.You are calling Lenglon town and refusing to vote for her in spite of her nonsense claim and incredibly passive play throughout the game. If that isn't a gain for scum then what is?
Hey, what about that time wherein Lenglon got Soli? Can you explain that? The last explanation of yours didn't.
"How how how how how?!"And then on Web..honest question: could you tell me why he'd say he'd target Toaster? [Your thoughts, ma'am]Yes, because he planned a bus with Lenglon and making a clearly false claim meant less scrutiny would be put on Lenglon's flavourclaim and night action choices. I've explained why bussing webadict is a sensible decision above (it's because Lenglon had to fake a track result).
Tiruin has her hands up in a flurry, the fan already fallen to the ground before she calms down and relaxes her stance, a tear falling from her eye. She picks up the fan, closes her eyes, and apparently hides her face as she fans herself.
You keep on forwarding Webadict planning a bus, doing a bus, executing a bus, and preferably sawing a bus in half with his own two teeth that it killed him but not how that makes sense in context given the list of OTHER suspects!
Where is the planning and its relevance to Lenglon's flavour claim? How does it matter? Link it all because I'm blind! Look at Lenglon's night actions, and justify them ALL. Especially that note on Solifuge!
On that bus... (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4660091#msg4660091)which logic truly escapes me...I'd like to know your opinion other than making Lenglon seem squeakier clean on how that even makes sense given Lenglon's past before then.
Why in the world would Lenglon follow up on a bus, when it is only by her word that people caught on that Webby web web was lying?
Also what is this. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4663690#msg4663690) Proves what -1 vote?! What are you even going on at that point? It's confusing more often than not.
I'm also all for bussing, but those and this (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4622392#msg4622392) marks inconsistency with your linking it to Lenglon.
Oops wait I just had a blindfold over here. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4628169#msg4628169) Last paragraph. TWS says he got distracted, then killed.
We know who did the distraction [Webby web], and it would be really strange to see Lenglon's tracking skills cue Solifuge's death without any...viable reason. Toaster also targeted webby web there.
Checking (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4623149#msg4623149). Yeah. Next...
Check the wording. I'd put the plurality to being a singular there, but who would listen to someone before killing them?!I didn't visit anyone or..did anything past the last nights. However, on the distraction--did TWS expound on anything? Like, specifics in flavor?
He also mentioned that the girls came to listen to him, before killing. That's it though.Jim: What did TWS do last night?
He did nothing.
Regret?
Sadness?
Anyway. The only correlation I see with Lenglon + Webadict (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4621151#msg4621151) = that link.
Could you give details on what TWS/Webadict/You chatted about? Also answer those things above LS.
Yeah. No.Nextly, let's say you're confirmed town on the whole basis of 'doublevoterishtown!'. Could you differentiate your suspect-points on Toaster and Lenglon? Yeah, sure the puzzle singles out people, but this is why I'm asking you all this.Toaster has an alibi for last night. He is not a suspect at all, puzzle or not. So everything I'm saying today is pro-Lenglonscum.
I did think Toaster was scum yesterday, but that changed very early in the day because a) he has an alibi and b) the puzzle directly points to him being town.
He has a conjunctive alibi--believe either Lenglon, or Toaster. They're both linked in the way that Lenglon > Toaster > Me.
I did not receive any rose, nor did I check for any rose (because I am fancy like that to get outta bed and get out of that area where I was in).. The only note he did was where he found me in.
But...
ToasteR: You didn't answer my question to you here on that note on me. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4655254#msg4655254)
So let me try to fix this list. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4658225#msg4658225)
zombie urist -> Jim Groovester <- Solifuge
Griffionday -> Tiruin
webadict I <-> Ottofar
Toaster -> NQT <- Lenglon
Leafsnail -> TWS <- webadict II
We have the swan sisters. Polar opposites, yet connected.
We have the cult of the Death Goddess. Innocence defying evil, and when they left, evil turned from good (Jin was originally town, then she became Jim).
We have the Young Prince (I've checked the lore on our Sigfred. He only talked muchly about the older prince, and not the younger one.) and...well, me.
Then we have the flower people! I have no idea how NQT could be a third-party, and looking at his role...it's quite strange. A survivor who has links tied to, and only now found, real roles. Roses and lilies!
But hey, let's assume that note of relevance since the context calls on it.
Few problems with that idea of the puzzle, LS: There is no constant basis. All the pairs are different. You know why I doubt your assumption? I did conclude that the puzzle does "screw over" *ahem, flutters fan* the 'last pair' by differentiating them, but I've trust in a meta way that Vector doesn't do that sort of thinking by exclusion. Also the really pointy picking out there was a factor.
Now on the matter of night action order and targeting, that's where I believe the shots go. [Also if you really wanna argue with me on the pattern - look at yourself and web and TWS. Scum KILLED TWS for some reason, and given that one certain player (whose role had (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4646614;topicseen#msg4646614) changed into a non-killing person). Now I know that someone (TWS?) asked about the factional NK-
...Ok I'll just list the pertinent notes on this.
Stuff stuff we guessed the mafia team numbers unless they are actually 4 people :O (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4489613#msg4489613)
But rocks fall and everyone dies except scum if town can't win...which is quite strange given what Horatio told me...but it wasn't anything on protecting the Prince's life. Why can't scum just directly target the Prince? (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4573429#msg4573429)
Town wincon is publicly announced by a town crier for 100gp! (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4513913#msg4513913)
Relevant. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4563078#msg4563078) - This too. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4565207#msg4565207)
Then notes. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4578097#msg4578097)
...
Ok the TWS thing? This was it. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4563244#msg4563244)
...Yeah I foolishly thought that someone would've asked if scum had the factional NK. Ahahahhaahahaha that was bad of me.
I'll just assume that there is a factional NK, and Web actually had an NK bonus after 3 strikes because he's webadict and all.
On Leafsnail. Your connection with TWS has nothing else but you're affected by his music. Sorta like a collateral, compared to everyone else holding a different kind of bond.
On my suspects
If I were to follow the puzzle weirdness: Lenglon.
Which holds little ground, really.
If I were to check back and see how aggressive people were in trying to completely pinpoint others: Leafsnail. How you poke Lenglon (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4661124#msg4661124) comes as more than debating aggression.
If it were inconsistency with total flavor and stuff: Toaster...as well as his play this game in general but I'm attributing it..and my intuition is saying its more on RL than not :S (but.... gut feeling that ZU was scum without expounding on it? Or..addressing the remarks on it? Ugh.)
Griffionday suspects Toaster is lying because during N1 there is no mention of a rose in his flavor, and he reasons that because miscellaneous is higher than kill on the action resolution list, he should have received flavor of receiving the rose.
Oh, and lastly, I really am wondering why anyone doesn't really see what I claimed earlier: I can survive kills.
Discrepancy: (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4623366#msg4623366) Think on how someone would find me if I'd kill them first given how Griffy acted. :v
I had figured that people would be more astute about that point.
Post by: Tiruin on October 08, 2013, 01:07:37 am
Append @Leafsnail
Of course, you've an alibi too. But I'm guessing that you're someone who can empower votes instead of a +1 voter. What is the context on why you have a double vote, anyway? We all have context for what we do.
Post by: Vector on October 08, 2013, 02:49:43 am
"Well, hello there. What's a pretty girl like you doing here with so many hungry men about?"Tiruin checks her mind for a list of things to be doing here with so many hungry men about.Quote> ExploringThen I must say something that would attract his attention.
> Trying to find out who did such
> Discrepancy with thoughts
> Why does he have a misericorde
> Why is a blood stained carpet..not red?! Did someone bleach it dry?
> Are they cannibals?
> Darn who wouldn't eat anything in 2 days?!
> We must not have flour.
> So then what are the ladies in waiting eating?!
> Does Horatio have a mustache?
> Who is keeping the kitchen!?
> Is Horatio keeping something else from us?
> Must search other girls' rooms. Everything is possible.
What if he says no.
"Curiosity, sir. I've been wondering if you and your men could check the Prince's rooms made for his mistresses. The thirteen invited?" maybe he doesn't know I'm one of them, perhaps?
...He called me pretty~
OK. Focus!
"Because I've heard that one of them is withholding a bit of food. By that, I meant check all those rooms.
"Also why does that carpet have such a colorful nature? What happened to it?
..The same would go for your exotic weapon. Why and where'd you get it?"
please don't notice my obvious semantics on subtly interrogating you my fellow peasant sir.
Inquire to Captain about the carpet, why it became so, why he's holding an acolyte's dagger and how he got it, and why that carpet is specifically bloodstained and now colored like..such.
Also subtly and meekly state that I overheard the conversation, and try to support the Prince's side because he's awesome and on my motive of hating civil war and stuff.
Change of plans!
You hustle yourself away from the drooling giant, and into a side room. There, you find a grimy piece of black cloth, in which you rip two holes. You fit the mask loosely on your face and stroll out with confidence. He'll never get wind of who you are now. Disguised like a champ.
Alexandersen is massaging his temples when you return. You clear your throat, and he--and his gloriously bristled mustache--look to you again.
"You look kinda--I'm seeing things. What do you want, chit?"
You flutter your eyelashes. First he calls you pretty--and now a chit! What a nice man.
"Oh, I'm so terribly hungry," you say. Thinking fast, you continue: "I don't know what I might do. That Prince's nasty brides have taken all the kitchen's food and hidden it away. If only we peasants could eat as well as they."
"Speak for yourself," he grumbles, but he stands up. "When it comes to country matters, no one's sharper than old Adolf. That does sound just like a woman. Let's go see about it, shall we?"
If the Prince or Horatio gets wind of this, there's going to be trouble. . . ! Thinking fast, you guide him to the old storage room. He grins down at you in a wolfy sort of a way.
"Maybe you should disguise yourself," you say hurriedly, before a word can pass his lips. "It would--it would rest my mind."
He grumbles, but soon enough he, too, wears a makeshift mask and looks like a new man!
You look through the thirteen rooms and find no food, but you do discover the following personal effects once Alexandersen has torn the sheets from the beds, ransacked the drawers, peeked beneath the furniture, ripped open every bag of luggage left there:
Webadict the White Swan:
- A bone brooch, well-handled, worn, depicting a young man of noble mien
- Black hairpins
- A couple of white hairpins
- A mirror with an etched swan on the back
- A variety of rings in a black velvet bag
Griffionday the Hopeful Prince
- A finger bone
- Hundreds of love letters--unsent
- A lock of bright red hair
Ottofar the Black Swan
- A bone brooch in a white samite bag, untouched, depicting a young man of noble mien
- White hairpins
- A half-finished scarf, slightly lumpy
- A hope chest with a carved image of a swan on the lid, containing linens, earthenware bowls, a long dress, a handful of gold coins, swaddling blankets, a rough-hewn rattle
Solifuge, AKA Lovelace
- Lengths of white bandage
- A whetstone
- A collection of dessicated herbs, which Alexandersen eats with a dissatisfied expression
- A bronze bowl, charred in the bottom
- Flint and steel
notquitethere the Gardener-Sage
- Sprigs of dried flowers
- An ancient gourd whose seeds rattle when you shake it
- A piece of stained glass, dark blue
- A number of very poorly executed charcoal drawings. . . it seems to be children sitting in trees? Maybe?
- A set of wooden teeth, covered in dust, found between pallet and wall
zombieurist, AKA Hypatia
- The Prince's book of Euclid
- A shaving knife and a steel mirror
- A long walking stick
- A pair of rope and leather sandals, in desperate need of stitching; Alexandersen eyes them, but leaves them alone for now
- A pair of soft leather sandals, new and still stinking of tannin
TheWetSheep the Balalaika Player
- Catgut strings in oiled parchment
- A white wool shawl
- A very hard loaf of brown bread, which Alexandersen temporarily gives up on eating and tucks under his arm for safekeeping
- A sachet of salt
- Tuning pegs in the midst of being carved
- A satin hair-ribbon, crimson, brand-new, never worn
- A withered bouquet of flowers, some of which Alexandersen chews on--the rest of which he takes with him
Webadict, who wore Red Shoes
- Three suicide notes, tear-stained, half-written, entirely incomprehensible other than the first line of each: "I KNOW YOU WON'T MISS ME," "im going to go i can't stand it anymore," "I step into the night since I am done being punished"
- A candle melted down to the quick
- Five quills, snapped in half
- Discarded clothing, creased where ragged fingernails pinched it too tight
Jim Groovestar, AKA Dreaming Death
- A gardenia, fragrant, in full bloom
- An apple, ripe. Alexandersen polishes it on the bedcovers and eats. A moment later he spits out a mouthful of maggots and worms, cursing mightily
- A piece of obsidian, gleaming, sharp
(Why would she have that stuff? You'd ask her, but you haven't seen her around lately)
Leafsnail
- A machine-printed volume of very melancholy poetry, with titles like "The Spider"--this seems to be from the Prince's library, or at least it has his name written in it a number of times
- A withered yellow rose, which Alexandersen eats
- A sachet of herbs, of the sort that is usually steeped in hot water to help people sleep
- A pot of lotion, for rubbing into and softening skin
Tiruin
- No personal effects
Lenglon
- No personal effects
Toaster
- A dead butterfly
- A bit of wool
- Grass clippings
- A spool of thread
- A wooden spoon from the Great Hall
- Scraps of cloth
- A glass bead--all these are piled together by the bed in a uniform heap
"I don't trust the Prince or the Ponce," says Alexandersen. "They're hiding something."
You aren't sure how to feel about this. This could be, after all, the key to your mystery! On the other hand, if they caught you. . . well, who cares. Fortune favors the brave!
"I'm glad you agree!" you say at last, burning with curiosity.
Horatio's room is a bit of a mess, to say the least. After a little poking around, you find:
- A steel mirror and razor
- A scourge
- A withered orange stuck with cloves, which Alexandersen turns up his nose at
- A small box with a number of whittled figures inside. You recognize two princes and a sneering figure who might be the third, Horatio himself at a much younger age, and what seems to be a dragon put together with pegs so that the joints move. There are a number of other human figures you don't recognize
- A silver coin of the realm, tucked away in the box of figurines
- A collection of pages sewn together with the title: "The Reccolexiones of Horatio Hall" in a painstakingly careful script. Some of the letters, even on the cover, are written backwards.
"Let's see here," says Alexandersen with a grin, opening the booklet. "Here's one from two years ago. 'The second day of February: To-night I saw the Prinz as always. He was in good health but sad. I am trying to write better but it is hard with all the reading it needs to help with the spelling and so little time too. I know the Prinz would help but I won't ask him.'
"Well, well. . . this ain't bad at all. . .
"'The nineteenth day of February: I wish Father or Mother was here to talk to. I do not think they would be pleased with me. Better just to think about it. Or forget.'
"Let's see if there's somethin' juicier later."
Alexandersen forgets to look to you for quiescence, or, likelier, doesn't much care. You, on the other hand, are frozen stiff with embarrassment.
"'The fifth day of June: I cannot forget. I have tried with every method known to man. Some, I think, must be known only to me.'
"'The ninth day of June: I borrowed a book of poesie. I shall try this time to better write out my feelings. The Prince is dutiful and kind. I think I should love him were he old or sick or even had he lost his gentle innocence. "He is as manifold as the rose at dawn, and in touching him I should die like Semele--bursting with dark ripeness and the memory of wine." I don't know what that quite means, but it seems nice so I have copied it out.'
"Good thing we don't count on the likes of him for copyists. . . just look at it.
"'Ah, Prince! "A man of virtue--who can find him? His worth exceeds that of rubies or pearls." How I wish I could bestow his charming lips with--' Now this ain't fit for a lady to look at. I'd better take it with me. So no other ladies get their hands on it."
"Wait," you say. You have to get something out of this. "Won't you read something from the past couple of days?"
"Yeah, all right," says Alexandersen. "Provided it ain't too dirty. You never can tell with their sort. Let's see. . . the last entry is from about a week ago:
"'Third of April: Sigfred seems happy.'
"That's it, I guess. Looks like he found a note even he couldn't bungle."
You leave for the Prince's solar, having convinced Alexandersen with some difficulty that his takings are adequate for now. You're starting to understand how he came across the carpet on which the youngest prince died, and the acolyte's dagger.
In Sigfred's room, it is when you are on the verge of trying to convince Alexandersen to stand by the Prince that you find a corpse wrapped in his bedsheets.
Post by: Leafsnail on October 08, 2013, 04:44:20 am
I will say this though: Toaster, and Toaster only, has an alibi. Yes, the rest of us have confirmed roles, but nothing stops us from having those roles and also being mafia. Toaster, on the other hand, was seen not performing the kill last night. That means that either:
1. Lenglon is town and actually saw Toaster. Toaster didn't kill, so he isn't mafia.
Or
2. Lenglon is scum and lying. That would mean that the scum is Lenglon and not Toaster.
The other point that jumps out - Lenglon caught Solifuge by tracking him. Mafia Tracker is not an unusual role. Before you ask, yeah, Lenglon tracked Toaster N3 and webadict killed NQT.
Post by: Toaster on October 08, 2013, 08:25:22 am
Toaster: Full claim. Now. You aren't telling the whole truth about your role.
*sigh*
Yes I am. I claimed my flavor here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4578896#msg4578896) and my role here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4620532#msg4620532). There's nothing to claim that I haven't already claimed.
Tiruin:#3 - look how Jim guessed my role, then how Webby guessed my role. I'm restating there.3. Either Jim and/or Web has already found out my role.
4. I am not lying-I cannot lie.
What made you say #3?
As for #4, please clearly and unambiguously state that you are town. Would something horrible happen to you if you falsely claimed an alignment?
#4...Ok? Why're you asking that?
I am town. I am town. I am tooooooown.
Tiruin looks at the nearest person and blushes. That was awkward screaming it out loud.
But really. Nothing would happen to me if I falsely claimed an alignment (or truly claimed an alignment for you skeptics).
Okay, in #3, are you referring to flavor or role abilities? If the former, then it's kind of silly to mention, given it was just process of elimination (there's a duck somewhere, and everyone else has claimed and no duck claim yet).
Also, in #4, you seem to be contradicting yourself. First you say you cannot (emphasis yours) lie, then you say nothing bad happens to you if you do. Which is it?
I asked because I was testing your ability to say that.
And you're right- I did miss responding to the hair question because I had to PM Vector. Vector's response was it was too dark to see. She even said OOC that she is not going to confirm or deny night actions through flavor.
Blargh blah fish blah cookies post button.
Append @Leafsnail
Of course, you've an alibi too. But I'm guessing that you're someone who can empower votes instead of a +1 voter. What is the context on why you have a double vote, anyway? We all have context for what we do.
Leaf already said this, but no, he doesn't. Neither do you. Lenglon claims to have one, but her claim is quite possibly fake.
Where are you driving with all this? If you're trying to make me and Lenglon a team, that would be silly because we would have already won. Any situation where I killed Jim would require both of us be lying, making both of us non-town, which would mean something like ScumTypeA Lenglon is covering for ScumTypeB Toaster, despite the two scum types being opposed to each other.
*reads giant flavor dump*
Hm. Tiruin, why don't you have any personal effects?
Vector: Princess Toaster looks at Princess Tiruin in the full light of day. She admires the color of her hair... what color is it again?
Lenglon: Why don't you have any personal effects?
Leafsnail: Don't get me wrong- I'm on the fence between you and Lenglon being scum. (Tiruin's still a possibility, but I don't think so.)
Assuming for a second that you're correct, why clear me today instead of claiming I visited Jim? Or, alternately, claiming to have tracked you as she implied she would do and saying you went nowhere?
Post by: Tiruin on October 08, 2013, 08:49:40 am
[This was addressed to LS but then Toaster]
The other point that jumps out - Lenglon caught Solifuge by tracking him. Mafia Tracker is not an unusual role. Before you ask, yeah, Lenglon tracked Toaster N3 and webadict killed NQT.Right, and the obvious note that me saying you and Webadict who were both tied to TWS doesn't make sense isn't in this equation, huh. While it does make sense that web killed NQT, the note before that is...pretty vague. Could you explain?
Because by this idea it means to me that Lenglon lied about the point back there IN N3 (Given that she's with web) that he targeted Web.
Ok.
So why would she say that webadict targeted TWS when there was no darn context for her to do so?! That statement there just forwards your idea of the wholesome bus, wherein the context is fallible in itself. Why did you think of it as a bus, anyway? How would that convince people given its logical standing?
Vector: I love you and your flavor is awesome. :I [I literally cleared his throat? XD Also..a chit is some kind of synonym to a young person, right? Dictionary doesn't help, unless I'm some kind of note.]
Anywhoo, banter aside: Timecheck? We've got approximately 2 days left in my memory.
...Oh carp, right. We didn't see the Prince, IC..nor did we..
...I'm unsure if this matters. Or if the mask matters. Argh you. :I
"Oh bloody h-hhhhhhh dead person in bed."
...Ok I panic run to Adolf and point point at the body in the bed, stating its a body, and then requesting a full examination of said body (and..bloodstains. I'm sure there are bloodstains.) And the wound and his guess on its cause! (I'm expecting rotting on an exponential scale but this is too much of an opportunity to pass up on)
I mean really. Since when does a mod go to such efforts to make the game added with fun despite it already being fun?
PPE Toaster
Lenglon: Why don't you have any personal effects?...I literally have no idea. I could say its because of [WHAT I SAID BACK THERE IN my role (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4580163;topicseen#msg4580163)] and what Jim derived after that.
...Why do you? Why doesn't Lenglon? Yes I'm asking you the second question given you flowergirls' presence.
@#3: err..I'm talking about [used the search engine: apparently you were the one who found it out first but I didn't see that post] dish one. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4580286;topicseen#msg4580286)
Quote
Also, in #4, you seem to be contradicting yourself. First you say you cannot (emphasis yours) lie, then you say nothing bad happens to you if you do. Which is it?...I was talking about my flavor and/or role, and thought you were talking about that. Yea I can lie when we talk about stuff that isn't my role, and note that before, I did state that I was goading - essentially, bluffing and beating my chest with bravado and stuff. Which could be said as lying (check link above).
It worked, didn't it? I took a hit.
..And still I'm reminded on that note of people thinking I'm a PGO. :v
And you're right- I did miss responding to the hair question because I had to PM Vector. Vector's response was it was too dark to see. She even said OOC that she is not going to confirm or deny night actions through flavor....Hmph. I got the gist when I asked about your rose :I But still, no rose?!
Yeeeaaaahh. The previous fellow also didn't get notice of yon rose. Ever.
That lucky dude is Griffionday. Webadict said nothing..as in there's no mention.
BUT: The hair thing is..mostly flavor..erm. Yeah, I'll just drop it. BUT NOT THE LACK OF A ROSE!
Where are you driving with all this?ONE of you people is lying. This is under the presumption that there is one scum left, a presumption that I'm taking by the everything.
Someone (not me) killed Jim, and is refusing to state it. Hence me prodding everyone. Every. One.
Even Adolf.
Leafsnail: Don't get me wrong- I'm on the fence between you and Lenglon being scum. (Tiruin's still a possibility, but I don't think so.):/
I'm a probability, but you don't think so, so you go with those who you think are also a probability and whom you may think so.
...Passive prod much?
Lenglon:
...Why don't you have personal stuffs?
...
Post by: Tiruin on October 08, 2013, 09:03:35 am
...Ok I panic run to, or try to find the PRINCE or HORATIO and point point at the body in the bed, stating its a body, and then requesting a full examination of said body (and..bloodstains. I'm sure there are bloodstains.) And the wound and his guess on its cause! (I'm expecting rotting on an exponential scale but this is too much of an opportunity to pass up on)...Ok...I don't know if this matters again but this is a bad idea and I'm adding to fix it.
First check what the body is and then let the other girls know of it!
(edited action)
Because the implications are darn well going to make the prince real angry. Or sad.
...And on the flavor. Horatio seems like he's..tutored? I'm unsure if anything. In learning a new language..err, the z's don't match.
Also I'm stating this here because of the opportunity on discussing it.
...Oh gods now I feel guilty for breaching Horatio's probable trust.
Lenglon, Toaster, Leafsnail: Do you have real names? I wasn't given mine. Curious.
Post by: Toaster on October 08, 2013, 09:15:53 am
If you look at the effects, they're all fairly natural things (wood, grass, wool, etc.) Things a girl that was recently a flower might be attracted to. They're also things that most likely came from the castle and its grounds- nothing that was obviously brought in.
If I had to guess why you can't find a rose, it'd be because Vector won't confirm night actions through flavor.
Fair enough on the 3-4 points.
Post by: Leafsnail on October 08, 2013, 09:29:13 am
Post by: Vector on October 08, 2013, 10:29:51 am
"Chit" is basically a medieval word for "bitch." It's a rude, immature young woman who doesn't know her place.
I generally dislike explaining flavor directly, but I think there may be an issue of cultural conveyance here--Horatio is both somewhat lacking in formal education and severely dyslexic.
Toaster: Brown with reddish undertones.
More updates when I get home from work, on the sides of both flavor and votecount.
Post by: Tiruin on October 08, 2013, 10:40:01 am
Also..no need for timecount. I somehow missed the Day ends Thursday note....right above my post there, sorry. Thanks though.
Toaster: [...]. . .So my guess on us all wearing fancy masks is discarded. Theory #49 gone.
[...]
[LEAFSNAIL_NOTE:NO]
PFP, in my post earlier today I meant to say N2, not N3. This should be clear due to the fact that NQT died night two. My actual N3 theory is unchanged.TBH, most of the case does point to Lenglon at the idea, and yeah I get..or more likely, understand the context of a subtle bus under how Web acted on the previous day to be plausible, though on the formal picks there and how you're guessing Web is bussing...Metatell, or are you suspicious on more than that?
Post by: Leafsnail on October 08, 2013, 11:51:10 am
@Toaster: Lenglon would have caught flak for deviating from Jim's plan. And your action as claimed was confirmable by the target anyway, meaning you'd have an alibi anyway even without Lenglon's help (although Tiruin doesn't seem to trust last night's flavour).
What does your flavour say you actually do? Does it maybe have you spreading earth on people to help them grow roses?
Post by: Toaster on October 08, 2013, 12:12:06 pm
Post by: Tiruin on October 08, 2013, 12:47:37 pm
Leaf: No. I literally give them a rose.Ok I thought I posted this but it isn't somehow up there.
...
Why're you giving your scion to everyone else in hopes of doing in their fertility?
Post by: Toaster on October 08, 2013, 02:42:16 pm
Post by: Leafsnail on October 08, 2013, 07:44:56 pm
I know. Let me work.You are voting for someone who cannot possibly be the person we need to lynch today. There is no room to "work". Stop doing it.
"How how how how how?!"I am going to be frank and say I have no idea what you are getting at here. I have explained why the scumteam planning to bus Lenglon is a good idea several times. I'll try once more and then I'll just give up and let you throw the game by voting a confirmed townie, because I am really completely sick of restating myself over and over again and clarifying points that were cleared up weeks ago.
Tiruin has her hands up in a flurry, the fan already fallen to the ground before she calms down and relaxes her stance, a tear falling from her eye. She picks up the fan, closes her eyes, and apparently hides her face as she fans herself.
You keep on forwarding Webadict planning a bus, doing a bus, executing a bus, and preferably sawing a bus in half with his own two teeth that it killed him but not how that makes sense in context given the list of OTHER suspects!
Where is the planning and its relevance to Lenglon's flavour claim? How does it matter? Link it all because I'm blind! Look at Lenglon's night actions, and justify them ALL. Especially that note on Solifuge!
The mafia wanted to make a kill night three, because otherwise the game would not move to mylo, and that would force the mafia to secure two mislynches instead of one. To reliably make that kill they would have to block TWS, who had an ability that could block nightkills. However, if TWS was to be blocked (by webadict) then Lenglon would have to perform the kill. This presents something of a problem: Lenglon had already claimed to be a tracker. How could she pretend to have a tracking result when she actually didn't? Answer: claim she saw her partner, who could tell her his action via quicktopic. This was her best option due to the lack of a massclaim at the time. By throwing her partner under the bus, she could clear herself of basically all suspicion and win easily on the last day, rather than risking having her night 3 track being torn apart and being lynched. webadict made sure his claim was absolutely terrible, so that people had no reason to scrutinize Lenglon's claim.
The questions I know you'll ask: Why not say webadict went somewhere else? Because webadict's role makes itself known to its target, so lying about its target would mean someone would know both mafia members were lying. Why not frame some random person for the kill? Because that person could easily have an alibi, or could perhaps beat Lenglon in a 1v1 fight due to her weak claim. Would the bus really gain Lenglon that much town credit? Yes, yes it did. You and Toaster are both struggling to believe that Lenglon could be scum with Toaster. That is proof that it would be worth doing. Why is Lenglon's flavour claim relevant? Because her flavour claim was terrible and she probably knew it. It would be good to try and draw as much attention away from it as possible.
Look at Lenglon's night actions, and justify them ALL. Especially that note on Solifuge!I honestly cannot see what is strange about any of Lenglon's night actions at all. I will look at them anyway.
Night 1 - track Solifuge
Lenglon tracked Solifuge because she is a mafia tracker and wanted to find town PRs. She hit the jackpot and was able to mislynch a vigilante due to Solifuge being tracked to a kill. Note that Ottofar was alive on this night, so there was no reason for Lenglon to make the kill (presumably Ottofar's kill was stopped by ZU).
Night 2 - track Toaster
Again, Lenglon was looking for town power roles. That's it. That's the entire motivation of a mafia tracker. webadict performed the kill on NQT as discussed earlier.
Night 3 - kill TWS
Discussed above. TWS was a very attractive nightkill target due to his abilities, the fact everyone saw him as town and the way he'd weaken my role. Lenglon had to make the kill as webadict needed to block TWS.
Night 4 - kill Jim Groovester
Does this really need explaining at all? Jim had a direct line to the dead, and was claiming to have a diverse set of powerful abilities. No sane mafia member would have allowed Jim to live.
Now, I'd like to turn this question around on you. Let's imagine for a moment that Lenglon is not a mafia member.
Why would the mafia allow Lenglon to have completely free reign for three nights, in spite of having both a kill and a roleblocker? After Lenglon claimed day one, they could have easily neutralized her with either a kill or a roleblock on nights two and three, and could also have killed her on night four. Why didn't they? Why did they allow a powerful investigate role to continue living for this long? This is on top of the "why would me and webadict kill the guy giving us powers" question I posed to you earlier.
Why in the world would Lenglon follow up on a bus, when it is only by her word that people caught on that Webby web web was lying?Because Lenglon had to fake a tracking target. Because Lenglon wanted to appear to be unimpeachably town. If sacrificing one mafia member makes the other invincible then it is a good move, because you only need one living mafia member to win.
Also what is this. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4663690#msg4663690) Proves what -1 vote?! What are you even going on at that point? It's confusing more often than not.It's pretty obvious. See how when I voted it counted against the extension. And how when I unvoted the extension was granted.
I'm also all for bussing, but those and this (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4622392#msg4622392) marks inconsistency with your linking it to Lenglon.I don't know what you're talking about. You linked the post in which webadict basically proved that he was scum by claiming an impossible night action result (and also a block he didn't actually do). How does "a post in which webadict kills himself" contradict the theory that "webadict wanted to die so that Lenglon could get insane town credit for bringing down a mafia member"?
Oops wait I just had a blindfold over here. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4628169#msg4628169) Last paragraph. TWS says he got distracted, then killed.webadict distracted TWS. Lenglon killed TWS. Solifuge was lynched on day two and has nothing to do with any of this. Assuming you mean TWS instead of Solifuge, it isn't hard to work out. Lenglon used the factional mafiakill instead of his track to kill TWS. You know, the factional mafiakill ability that the mafia gets in almost every game.
We know who did the distraction [Webby web], and it would be really strange to see Lenglon's tracking skills cue Solifuge's death without any...viable reason. Toaster also targeted webby web there.
Check the wording. I'd put the plurality to being a singular there, but who would listen to someone before killing them?!Literally anyone who enjoyed music?
Anyway. The only correlation I see with Lenglon + Webadict (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4621151#msg4621151) = that link.Yes. And that's the crucial correlation: Lenglon bussing webadict by tracking him to the kill, and webadict killing himself by making an impossible claim.
Could you give details on what TWS/Webadict/You chatted about? Also answer those things above LS.Yes: absolutely nothing of interest, because if we thought of something interesting we could just post it in the thread rather than a smaller subset of the thread. The only thing we talked about for most of the time was "why do we have a quicktopic". I suggested it was because I had finally solved part of the puzzle and Vector wanted to further encourage us/ show that we were on the right track, and the others didn't think that was too likely but didn't suggest any other reason, other than suggesting that maybe I was responsible for it somehow. TWS then asked whether he should block all nightkills, and webadict told him to decide himself without claiming it (presumably because he knew he'd be blocking TWS either way).
He has a conjunctive alibi--believe either Lenglon, or Toaster. They're both linked in the way that Lenglon > Toaster > Me.Ugh.
If you believe Lenglon, Toaster didn't perform the kill and is town.
If you don't believe Lenglon, then Lenglon is scum and Toaster is still town because if they were both scum then they'd have won already. I really can't understand why you aren't getting it. It is completely and utterly different to the situation that me, you and Lenglon are in.
I did not receive any rose, nor did I check for any rose (because I am fancy like that to get outta bed and get out of that area where I was in).. The only note he did was where he found me in.BUT LENGLON CLAIMED TO SEE HIM DOING IT JESUS CHRIST
Few problems with that idea of the puzzle, LS: There is no constant basis. All the pairs are different. You know why I doubt your assumption? I did conclude that the puzzle does "screw over" *ahem, flutters fan* the 'last pair' by differentiating them, but I've trust in a meta way that Vector doesn't do that sort of thinking by exclusion. Also the really pointy picking out there was a factor.I don't understand what you are saying. The colours are the reason we are meant to see the three core pairs as similar.
Now on the matter of night action order and targeting, that's where I believe the shots go. [Also if you really wanna argue with me on the pattern - look at yourself and web and TWS. Scum KILLED TWS for some reason, and given that one certain player (whose role had (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4646614;topicseen#msg4646614) changed into a non-killing person).TWS was not suspected by anyone and had a powerful role. That is more than enough reason to kill him.
I'll just assume that there is a factional NKNQT died night two and nobody claimed it. TWS died night three and nobody claimed it. Jim died night four and nobody claimed it. It is by now blindingly obvious that the mafia have a factional kill (the night one kill could have been stopped by ZU).
On Leafsnail. Your connection with TWS has nothing else but you're affected by his music. Sorta like a collateral, compared to everyone else holding a different kind of bond.Except, you know... that's exactly the same as webadict's connection with TWS. Because me and webadict are the paired roles and TWS is the role that creates an explicit link between us.
If I were to check back and see how aggressive people were in trying to completely pinpoint others: Leafsnail. How you poke Lenglon (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4661124#msg4661124) comes as more than debating aggression.Aggression is not a scumtell at all. Not even remotely. And it's needed if players around you are doing stupid shit (like, say, voting for confirmed townies at mylo).
Post by: Leafsnail on October 08, 2013, 07:45:35 pm
Post by: Lenglon on October 08, 2013, 08:46:44 pm
N1 ZU protected me.
Post by: Leafsnail on October 08, 2013, 08:49:55 pm
Post by: Tiruin on October 08, 2013, 09:09:21 pm
Okay, Tiruin. I am not repeating myself to you any more. I have presented answers already to all the questions you have asked. If you have a problem with the answers I gave, state them. Don't make me restate them again and again and again.When.
Since when have i asked you to restate anything over and over again? Or did it come off as such?
The very reason I ask you such is that to give a clearer viewpoint. Like what you just did on the bus -- most of which was unstated earlier. I'm asking for your viewpoint as we don't have, or share the same point of view on the current matters. I already stated my problem with those questions, and yet you think I'm repeating the point like a blithering idiot.
I feel insulted. Someone of your capability would at least point that out despite it being partly negative in criticism-you aren't. I can see your intent there, and its partly cloudy in its judgement.
How do you view me, as a player?
And isn't it clear enough yet? I'm being skeptical, to forward the point. Lenglon isn't speaking, and this is quitely her last chance to speak-that's what I'm giving. Everyone deserves a second chance.
...not that anyone will get the Prince. Myself included.
And praise be to he, sir! Hail!I did not receive any rose, nor did I check for any rose (because I am fancy like that to get outta bed and get out of that area where I was in).. The only note he did was where he found me in.BUT LENGLON CLAIMED TO SEE HIM DOING IT JESUS CHRIST
Now (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4652153#msg4652153) you (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4652313#msg4652313) tell (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4655097#msg4655097) me, (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4655178#msg4655178) in (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4656698#msg4656698) the (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4656919#msg4656919) calmest (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4657046#msg4657046) and unflattering (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4657870#msg4657870) of possible tones that you can make, (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4660245#msg4660245) where madam Lenglon (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4660297#msg4660297) EXPLICITLY (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4661622#msg4661622) said (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4667727#msg4667727) what you claim.
Tell me, and I'll eat my figurative hat and/or freeformschooler.
Go ahead.
tl;dr, if she's lying, please check the first link before you say that at my face.
Praise be to him.
OH YES IT IS IF YOU SEE THE BLOODY CONTEXT. THAT IS NOT AGGRESSION, IT IS BLATANT AND OUTRIGHT PUSHING THE NOTIONS TO THEIR EXTREMES IN ORDER TO IMPLICATE A PERSON--WHILE SAID PERSON IS SCUM IN YOUR VIEWPOINT, YOU CAN DO IT IN A BETTER WAY THAN INSINUATING SUCH UNGRACEFUL COMMENTS.If I were to check back and see how aggressive people were in trying to completely pinpoint others: Leafsnail. How you poke Lenglon (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4661124#msg4661124) comes as more than debating aggression.Aggression is not a scumtell at all. Not even remotely. And it's needed if players around you are doing stupid shit (like, say, voting for confirmed townies at mylo).
THAT IS UNBECOMING OF A LADY, SIR. UNBECOMING![/aggression]
The questions I know you'll ask: [...]Ok, this is getting personal that you think that you can predict what I'll do or ponder. From a biased way, that's disgraceful, but I get your point there.
Quote
You and Toaster are both struggling to believe that Lenglon could be scum with Toaster.Uh huh. No, I'm contending it with you as scum. Toaster has been clean since she [Lenglon] said so earlier (yes, the dirt was the only thing that dirtied up his innocence.), and thus why I'm leaving my vote on him--there are no hammers, and the day can only end if someone hilariously shortens, and it would be more than hilarious to see someone else vote Toaster, but it still lies in probability despite the general belief.
In itself, the notion of voting like so also pushes how people watch the votes. You seem to be taking me voting Toaster like it's a fact that you can't quite grasp-as if I'm as blind as a southern cave bat who just yaps on and on to find a way out without listening to any response to figure out where it stands. The analogy seems fit to detail your reaction, as it seems.
I know where my vote goes, and the psychology under being voted and not being voted. The freedom of speech and how someone may keep talking under pressure, no matter how trivial or experienced the person is.
You can see the results, yourself. And apologies if it hit your blood pressure along the way...collateral damage is not what I predicted.
Look, while the puzzle has mostly been solved and all, I'm leaning on the side of skepticism to clear this all up and make the best use of the time given despite what IRL stuff here dictates (just end it already and blah blah blah exams school pressure) but I can take it because I, in my most honest opinion, know what I'm doing.
(Also its a Wednesday here at the time of posting so relax a bit. C'mon dude. I know that you're a smart fellow, but surely you aren't that biased or jaded to see me flailing like a fishy fish. :I)
Returning to the point at hand and why I'm skeptic on it. Webadict could've gone with the conventional 'make it up and hope it works' method when replying to Lenglon.
Yeah, ok, settling the point-I also get the feeling on webadict. We both know he's a cunning and sly player, but the query stands on that notion I uphold above.I'm also all for bussing, but those and this (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4622392#msg4622392) marks inconsistency with your linking it to Lenglon.I don't know what you're talking about. You linked the post in which webadict basically proved that he was scum by claiming an impossible night action result (and also a block he didn't actually do). How does "a post in which webadict kills himself" contradict the theory that "webadict wanted to die so that Lenglon could get insane town credit for bringing down a mafia member"?
He could've gone with that method rather than push an incredibility to favor a mafioso. He could make it up, and then solidify that Lenglon targeted him at that certain point in time (compare: objection to subversion. After the role is seen, which would give better clarity to whom to trust? This is hypothetical, but an answer would be appreciated.)
That is where the insane town credit comes in, and how it relates to people's sense of logic. Mine may be skewed, bent or even turned around in a parabola that it doesn't make sense when its shaped as itself, but that point is a point to ponder upon.
What I've been saying before on checking Lenglon as a superficial suspicion? That's just a ruse that I'm saying in order to diversify the suspicion between you and her. You could say a reaction test of sorts..I don't know the exact term for it. However that note on your description on the N3 TWS? Its matching what I'm pondering about, and the 'mishap' on N3, which is what I subtly termed earlier...I was thinking about it for more than 2 days.
Note that I keep tabs on people.
...This is what confused me then, and caused the succeeding querying.Also what is this. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4663690#msg4663690) Proves what -1 vote?! What are you even going on at that point? It's confusing more often than not.It's pretty obvious. See how when I voted it counted against the extension. And how when I unvoted the extension was granted.
...Your vote is a universal -1, huh?
Quote
.Did a check (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4484539#msg4484539) on everything beforehand. If what you say is true, then it should be sensible to point that the extend/shorten votes would also carry on when you had a double vote (...I mean, wow. That is one in depth depression that it stalls time.)
You may ask for an extension or shorten by putting the respective word in bold. Extensions require 33% of players to agree minus any players opposing, and requires at least three players. Extends are for 48 hours including weekends, and there may only be a maximum of four Extends.
Here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4493330#msg4493330) till here, (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4494816#msg4494816) we had 6 total votes. Excluding yours. Disregarded. Same (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4513913#msg4513913) here. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4515555#msg4515555)
...That continues long onwards. This (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4569129#msg4569129) tiny point has been answered in my memory but I lack the time to find the answer. Anyway...
Here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4573047#msg4573047) till ..err. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4574148#msg4574148)
..Right.
Here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4582715#msg4582715) until here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4588893#msg4588893) has ZU only voting, which was the reason for the motivator thing I appended to you, LS..unless I missed the other one.
...And nothing else, then TWS died.
HOWEVER, the note was on semantics (x more people to extend..stuff stuff)..I can't really fathom how you say you've a confirmed -1 vote in that manner to also attach it to a lynchvote.
One question you missed: Any reason/lore behind your double-vote/lacking vote power? Is your vote a single-use effect weakness?
Lenglon: Speak, or forever hold your peace.
PPE: ...
Err. Why was that the only thing you said, Lenglon? Also take care. Same to you Leafsnail..
Toaster eat yummy dirt and post more. :I
Post by: Tiruin on October 08, 2013, 09:12:20 pm
Take yourself as being scum.
Why did you clear up Toaster there? You do know that it'll really glance your chances off-and given that you're also clearing me via trust? He could as well have killed me for whichever reason comes to mind~
Post by: Vector on October 09, 2013, 01:28:37 am
Also, this update, more than any other, contains some human beings being really awful to each other. So. Whoever ends up winning this really, let me say, deserves their happy ending. Yes, everything will be tied up. It shall be all right in the end! Probably. It may take a while.
First check what the body is and then let the other girls know of it!...Ok I panic run to, or try to find the PRINCE or HORATIO and point point at the body in the bed, stating its a body, and then requesting a full examination of said body (and..bloodstains. I'm sure there are bloodstains.) And the wound and his guess on its cause! (I'm expecting rotting on an exponential scale but this is too much of an opportunity to pass up on)
You unwrap the sheet.
"By Death's icy tits," says Alexandersen, putting a handkerchief to his nose. It's a dead woman, tall, slim, with a youthful turn to her body. Her teeth and her hair have all fallen out and lie about her in a halo of black and ivory. Her stench is putrid, somehow worse than rotting meat, past cloying and firmly situated in the realm of the fantastically foul. You are shocked that you can't see it flowing out, a haze over her body. Her body certainly looks loose and heavy, as though her flesh had lost its grip on her bones.
Strips of skin have pulled away in long pieces and now hang from the blanket. From one depends an entire detached finger.
"Wait here," you say from beneath the rising weight of your nausea. "Open the window or something. I'm going to go get help."
Alexandersen stands stock still, frozen. You abandon him, heading down the stairs towards the Great Hall. The other girls are sitting around a small table, heads together, bickering.
"Corpse. . . in the Prince's room. Thought you should know," you pant, and pass out through the door towards the undercroft. A flight of stairs later you remember to take off your mask. As you wait outside the storage room's door, fumbling with the knot, you hear the distinctive sounds of a quarrel.
"You thought you would mention this now?"
"Peace, Sigfred, I had only thought--"
"I have tolerated you and your proclivities for all too long! You're an abomination! An affront to dignity, an arrogant satyr who would choke on the heft of his own spit-shined hubris if he ever tried swallowing down anything other than--"
"Sigfred, you needn't be so awful about this--"
"You should count your blessings every day that you have a roof over your head, you stupid, indolent lout, when both of us know you aren't worth the dirty straw you lie your poxy body on. You ought to be spanceled and muzzled, knave, until such a time when you can control your bestia--"
"Enough! Peace, Sigfred, do sit down. Let's speak of this like men--"
SMACK.
"I have told you," says the Prince's voice some moments later, quavering distinctly. "I told you that thou'rt not to lay hands on our person and now look at what you have done--"
". . . As I would have said: Let's speak of it like men, rather than animals."
The scrape of a chair.
"We are grown now," says Horatio, "and no longer children in the studyroom, to be beaten for their casual errors. I do not know what has enraged you so, and driven you so far afield from your usual disposition, but this fit of abusive petulance is beneath you."
Silence.
"I know not what to say to you," says Horatio. "You are changed from the man I know, and I know not wherefore."
"I will not speak of it, so do not ask it of me," says the Prince.
Silence.
". . . Horatio, you're bleeding."
"Perhaps if you removed your signet next time. Or chose to strike me with the palm of your hand, rather than the back."
Silence.
"I would be left alone."
"That is fortunate, as I would leave you," says Horatio. "It matters not. The complexities of your bursary are far above the capabilities of my humble intellect, liege, and I abandon you to them."
You hear his footsteps approaching and you hurry up the stairs so that you can be hurrying down when he opens the door, rather than caught eavesdropping.
"Horatio!" you say.
"You," he says neutrally, as blood slowly runs down his cheekbone. From behind him, you can hear the door closing again and being barred shut.
"There's something you need to see," you say, and hurry back to the Prince's solar, Horatio trudging behind.
"I--I asked Captain Alexandersen to let me accompany him on his rounds today," you tell him. "But we found something in the Prince's room--something horrid! A corpse!"
"The guards are asked to patrol the hallways, not inspect the royal chambers," says Horatio.
"Come on, we should hurry," you say. You hope that he's really as dazed as he sounds. Horatio opens the solar door and you rush ahead so that you can stand by the bed and dramatically point at the body. Fortunately, Alexandersen opened every shutter, so the stench is not quite so bad.
"Look at that! A body!" you say helpfully. "She's dead!"
"I see. Yes," says Horatio. "That certainly is a very dead woman. Hullo again, Captain."
"Well met, Semele," says Adolf Alexandersen, inspecting his fingernails.
"Well, go on, Horatio," you say. "Examine her! Head to foot. Be thorough!"
"If I must."
"This is too good an opportunity to pass up!" you exclaim. Horatio gives you a bit of an odd look, but approaches the bed.
"It's the woman who seemed to have died," he says, glancing at the corpse and looking away, "who is now definitely deceased."
"And? And?!"
Horatio's expression closes as he walks closer. In that moment, you realize that you have never looked at him carefully before, and see him clearly now--a tall, pinched man, conspicuously clean-shaven (if showing a beardy shadow at this hour). His nose and cheekbone show evidence of having been previously broken, and in his thick black hair you can see a few threads of silver. As he gently pushes the corpse's flesh away from the pit of her wound with his broad bare hands, he bites the tip of his tongue, peering down.
"She has a hole in her chest," he says. "The ribs are shattered with pieces protruding into the surrounding tissue and the lung is perforated in multiple places. The heart is missing and the arteries have been ripped. From the stage of decay I would say she has been dead quite some time now. The skin has lost its tension and has taken on a spongy texture."
"You sure know your corpses intimately," says Alexandersen.
"I have had occasion to bid final farewells to a great deal of death of late," says Horatio. "Strange. The bone here is thick and rough, as though stone had grown on it."
"What about bloodstains," you say. "What about the inside of her chest? Are there any more clues there?"
"Why don't you come over here and find out yourself," he says, wiping his gooey fingers on his trousers. "You can put your hand in and root around in there. Mayhap the murderer left a note."
Even you can recognize the sarcasm for what it is.
"What do you think caused the death?"
"I would suspect," says Horatio, "that it may--perhaps, though it is a stretch and I am prepared to retract my professional statement at your word--it may have something to do with her missing heart. However, there is also the possibility that she is merely pretending again. Now, if you would excuse me. I have matters to which I must attend elsewhere."
Horatio turns. He walks away, shaking his head a little, raising a hand as though to pass it through his hair but thinking better of it. You wish he had offered to bury the corpse, or done a better job of rooting through her chest cavity.
He stops in his tracks.
"'Semele'?"
Post by: Tiruin on October 09, 2013, 02:25:58 am
...Since I'm waiting muchly on Lenglon here I might as well indulge on this opportunity again.
(seriously nobody else wanting to talk here?)
Why is it that he looks so different..now?
...
Did Semele have an effect here?
"S-" It would be rude to repeat. "Someone you knew?"
Ask.
Now (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4652153#msg4652153) you (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4652313#msg4652313) tell (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4655097#msg4655097) me, (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4655178#msg4655178) in (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4656698#msg4656698) the (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4656919#msg4656919) calmest (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4657046#msg4657046) and unflattering (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4657870#msg4657870) of possible tones that you can make, (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4660245#msg4660245) where madam Lenglon (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4660297#msg4660297) EXPLICITLY (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4661622#msg4661622) said (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4667727#msg4667727) what you claim.Also this was all Lenglon's posts of the day.
[...]
Checking back..yeah I'm too tired to think. Toaster's role is being weird, I feel clarified enough to fix the gap of Leafsnail acting in the night, Lenglon's quiet and..pretty much under presumptuous flak.
...Toaster: You're a third-party, aren't you?
...Can I also examine that mask I got? Or remember on how it was if I don't have it?
Post by: Lenglon on October 09, 2013, 02:33:51 am
Lenglon: Why don't you have any personal effects?Don't know, sending PM.
Lenglon, Toaster, Leafsnail: Do you have real names? I wasn't given mine. Curious.Don't know, second PM sent.
Say now, in a hypothetical situation, Lenglon:If I were scum I wouldn't have. I'd just have to get one more mislynch to win. All I'd have to do claim to have tracked Toaster to Jim, Toaster will predictably call me a liar, but it doesn't matter because everyone thinks he's scummy anyway. then tonight night I'd NK Leaf for the win.
Take yourself as being scum.
Why did you clear up Toaster there? You do know that it'll really glance your chances off-and given that you're also clearing me via trust? He could as well have killed me for whichever reason comes to mind~
However, you want me to make up reasons for me to have tracked Toaster to you instead? well, as scum it wouldn't really matter who is lynched today as long as a lynch happens and it's not me, so I guess I'd do that if I was more confident that I could get either you or Leafsnail lynched than I could for Toaster.
Lenglon: Speak, or forever hold your peace.I was skimming Leafsnail's scum-Lenglon series of events and noticed that it was dependant on the N1 NK target being protected by ZU, and I had remembered that ZU tried to protect me that night, which made that series of events impossible unless scum were trying to nk each other. Leafsnail's response pointed out that the protect aimed at me that night had been redirected, which upon double-checking, it had been, so I suppose I can't prove it false.
PPE: ...
Err. Why was that the only thing you said, Lenglon? Also take care. Same to you Leafsnail..
I really am sick of fighting with Leafsnail, he's led lynch attempts against me every single game I've been in with him, and his style and attitude infuriates me. Still, from what you're saying, you want me to get right back into fighting with him, yet again, and that's something I'm kinda sick of doing. The fact that Leaf wasn't NK'd night 1 should be proof that I don't have a kill.
If I'm understanding Leafsnail's arguments against me correctly, then his main argument for me being scum is that web didn't try to defend himself very strongly, and that I needed someone to have "tracked" to excuse myself from my supposed kill that night if we presuppose that I am scum. I would like to point out that not only did I post my tracking result as the first post of the day, and that neither I nor web were under pressure up until that point, and that a single mislynch at the point would have been a scum win, but that I also had a perfectly good alternate tracking target I could have claimed to have followed that night. I could have claimed to follow Tiruin, and to have not seen you go anywhere, simply to follow up on my suspicions from the day before of you having fakeclaimed a role without a night action.
I suppose at this point I'm supposed to present some grand "look! Leafsnail is obviscum!" case. Well, to be blunt, I don't have one. Toaster is effectively confirmed town, and I'm simply comparing Tiruin and Leafsnail. Tiruin feels strongly like town to me, and Leafsnail does not.
Quote
@Toaster: Lenglon would have caught flak for deviating from Jim's plan. And your action as claimed was confirmable by the target anyway, meaning you'd have an alibi anyway even without Lenglon's help (although Tiruin doesn't seem to trust last night's flavour).you forget that Web was targeted by toaster earlier in the game. scum have a sample of what the target sees when targeted by Toaster. Scum would already know that it doesn't notify the target.
Tiruin, I'll be here for another hour, is there anything else for me to add? do you have any questions?
Post by: Lenglon on October 09, 2013, 02:49:41 am
Quote
Why would the mafia allow Lenglon to have completely free reign for three nights, in spite of having both a kill and a roleblocker? After Lenglon claimed day one, they could have easily neutralized her with either a kill or a roleblock on nights two and three, and could also have killed her on night four. Why didn't they? Why did they allow a powerful investigate role to continue living for this long? This is on top of the "why would me and webadict kill the guy giving us powers" question I posed to you earlier.N1 - Didn't know my role
N2 - I was likely to be protected, I was the only claimed role and thereby was doctor bait.
N3 - nightkill blocker was a higher priority - I would need to track the killer specifically, on the night of the kill, and it looked like I was going to track Tiruin
N4 - Jim the fully-loaded JOAT who hasn't said what he's going to do or me when I'm going to track toaster or maaaaaabye tiruin? easy decision who to kill.
Post by: Lenglon on October 09, 2013, 02:59:22 am
Post by: Tiruin on October 09, 2013, 03:11:54 am
Tiruin, I'll be here for another hour, is there anything else for me to add? do you have any questions?I...really think its all on Leafsnail here. You could've also lolhammered early in today on my 'mistake', to add to that paragraph right there on what I asked you.
Too busy to check - you claimed Day 1?!QuoteWhy would the mafia allow Lenglon to have completely free reign for three nights, in spite of having both a kill and a roleblocker? After Lenglon claimed day one, they could have easily neutralized her with either a kill or a roleblock on nights two and three, and could also have killed her on night four. Why didn't they? Why did they allow a powerful investigate role to continue living for this long? This is on top of the "why would me and webadict kill the guy giving us powers" question I posed to you earlier.N1 - Didn't know my role
Post by: Lenglon on October 09, 2013, 03:24:13 am
Post by: Tiruin on October 09, 2013, 03:36:04 am
no, I reported a tracking result D2, so N1 they didn't know my role, powers, or anything at all about my character.And Leafsnail says contrary--are you sick of fighting with him in the way stated below, or are you done with the foulplay enough to let who is scum in your eyes goad you into submission?
Fight for the lily clan then! You're fighting for all flowers everywhere!
*ahem*
I really am sick of fighting with Leafsnail, he's led lynch attempts against me every single game I've been in with him, and his style and attitude infuriates me. Still, from what you're saying, you want me to get right back into fighting with him, yet again, and that's something I'm kinda sick of doing. The fact that Leaf wasn't NK'd night 1 should be proof that I don't have a kill.A few bits:
The Mafia NK is a group action performed by only one person while the rest get to do their stuffs on said night. That night, Griffy died. Flavor indicates Stiletto procedure - ala Soli. Actions speak for themselves. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4623149#msg4623149)
Though the logic here is..twisty. If you're sick of fighting ye ol'snail, what have you to say about his arguments presented against you? I'm leaning on his version at this point (...other than all those blatant meta evidence he brings up like DOUBLEVOTERISTOWN and the other notes. I am not relying on the puzzle to diversify given the pairings {though it makes little sense why a LS/Web/TWS team would have a chat..probably only to confuse TWS.} yet the evidence presented on your case (that being..well, an explanation on Webby-web's notes, which I'd like to see your thoughts on rather than irritation {..because there needs to be something that follows the story given action and reaction, and his detail focuses on you outright lying and all that}.
So yeah, add that in Lenglon.
Leafsnail: Since you're irritated that I ask you to 'repeatahahahahh' your notes. You thought ZU was scum back then and lynched him without expounding when I asked (noting the explicit 'mafia' note), or maybe you did-and are going along the idea of not linking back when asked. Just linking it would do something rather than flailing about and attempting a subtle ad hominem. Those things are those which I find debases your credibility in that situation.
Why do you keep on doing such, and inserting the ol'"You'll regret doing this since I'm town!" note instead of deconstructing the argument presented to you? Is it stupid enough to not ensure that communication gets through and rather, to infer a result is the better case?
Let me present few examples.
So anyway, in a hypothetical situation that she's scum, why did you not think she would've laid down the hammer at the break of dawn, today as holding some argument?
Plus this: Where and how did you procure those books over here? (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4669396#msg4669396)
Toaster: ...Ok, re-reading, you're really lazy to answer scant few questions poking your role, sir. Most recently is this one:
What does your flavour say you actually do? Does it maybe have you spreading earth on people to help them grow roses?
Leaf: No. I literally give them a rose.Your flavor literally "No"'s, huh.
Because the more people wear roses, the more they're planted, and that's a good thing....You can't plant a dead flower. >_>
The good thing is if they pollinate. Which requires being alive.
I-
Edit: Woo, typo..
How does this make sense? I am not wearing a rose. Can you examine my body to check for roses?
Tiruin: Us flowers don't have names, silly! (No, no name. Other than my role name "the Rose.")
If you look at the effects, they're all fairly natural things (wood, grass, wool, etc.) Things a girl that was recently a flower might be attracted to. They're also things that most likely came from the castle and its grounds- nothing that was obviously brought in.
Confirmed third-party here.
Post by: Tiruin on October 09, 2013, 03:55:29 am
Leafsnail: Since you're irritated that I ask you to 'repeatahahahahh' your notes. You thought ZU was scum back then and lynched him without expounding when I asked (noting the explicit 'mafia' note), or maybe you did-and are going along the idea of not linking back when asked. Just linking it would do something rather than flailing about and attempting a subtle ad hominem. Those things are those which I find debases your credibility in that situation.The fix being I'm putting ellipses into the parts I'm expounding on later due to breaks in exams cutting in. [It can be found if you look in between the D5...mostly where my memory sees it]
Why do you keep on doing such, and inserting the ol'"You'll regret doing this since I'm town!" note instead of deconstructing the argument presented to you? Is it stupid enough to not ensure that communication gets through and rather, to infer a result is the better case?
Let me present few examples.
[...]
So anyway, in a hypothetical situation that she's scum, why did you not think she would've laid down the hammer at the break of dawn, today as holding some argument?
Plus this: Where and how did you procure those books over here? (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4669396#msg4669396)
[...]
Also how sure are you that Toaster is confirmed town, when all we got of his actions was dirt? To be said in the least, if Lenglon's (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4655188#msg4655188) gravedirt theory is right, which..did make sense then, until I saw that Jim stated that Griffionday had the same lack of rose. He did know where I was, but gave..a list of places to note.
The only one who has a rose is you, by the way. And it would be silly to throw dirt at people, then stick your rose in it to make it grow-those things require nutrients and sunlight. And water.
Toaster. Please answer all of the above queries directed to you.
Post by: Lenglon on October 09, 2013, 04:07:19 am
{..because there needs to be something that follows the story given action and reaction, and his detail focuses on you outright lying and all that}wait wait wait, I outright lied somewhere? what? where did that happen?
Though the logic here is..twisty. If you're sick of fighting ye ol'snail, what have you to say about his arguments presented against you?I think that they're all over the place, and that I'm having trouble even following it at this point, which is why I asked him for a summary.
yet the evidence presented on your case (that being..well, an explanation on Webby-web's notes, which I'd like to see your thoughts on rather than irritation.well, the question here is does Web suck at mafia or not?
Lets put ourselves in Web's shoes from yesterday for a moment, shall we? Version 1, I'm his scumbuddy: Ok, so you're scumbuddy just outed you to the group, and is prepared to bus you to death, and it's MYLO. Do you: A) Give up, roll over, and die, or B) fight as hard as you can to survive.
well lets see, A makes the bus obvious, and B gives you a chance at pulling off a mislynch and winning on the spot.
so yeah, the smart move is to fight as hard as you can to survive.
Version 2, Leaf's his scumbuddy: Ok, that darn tracker just tracked you to the nk, and you're probably going to die. do you A) roll over and die quietly, and tell your scumbuddy to call what happened a bus on the next day for a easy mislynch and win. or B) fight to survive, and hope to pull off the impossible?
Leaf's had all day yesterday and a very long night to plan out exactly how he wants today to go, and I respect Web's skill at Mafia, do you?
Post by: Lenglon on October 09, 2013, 04:19:47 am
one thing that struck me is just how fast Leafsnail presented a lynch case against me, composed of several giant walls of text. yet before today he never made even a peep about me. It seems to me like he had that case prepared before the day even began, because he knew exactly how the night was going to go, and what he needed to do today to win. If, as Leaf said, he only came to the concusion that I was scummy today, then where did this case come from? and why, for several of the points in it, are they only being brought up now? and not when they happened? he's complaining about my flavor from two days ago, he's complainaing about Web's behavior from yesterday, he's got lots of things that seem rather... time-displaced. like they don't actually matter to him, and that he's only bringing them up now in order to build a case.
Post by: Lenglon on October 09, 2013, 06:43:06 am
anyways, I finally figured out why you were explaining how the mafiakill works, you were taking what I said in small print seriously and literally. What I was saying there was if I had a kill of any kind, vig, mafia, sk, whatever, then I'd have used it on leaf N1 simply so I wouldn't have to put up with him. It's not really any kind of evidence towards anything, I'm just gripeing, don't worry about it.
Post by: Tiruin on October 09, 2013, 07:54:38 am
Err, that's LS' explanation on the NKs. Given the scoreset of:{..because there needs to be something that follows the story given action and reaction, and his detail focuses on you outright lying and all that}wait wait wait, I outright lied somewhere? what? where did that happen?
Roleblocker (x3 till bonus kill or they can just take the killing themselves as far as I can see)
Godfather (Ottofar could do the killings everytime. ...And he's only useful against Griffy-griff)
Tracker [He be talkin' about you.] (Given the context, someone would've played according to efficiency-the claims went off when Jim asked during..well, D3-ish.)
However, the state at which it all stands, Leafsnail is taking the active voice, and you're taking the passive voice despite it being the one going along some of my suspicions on LS' behavior, to state allegorically in a semantic manner. I get those hypothetical situations with the queries and explanations, but LS has given arguments which stand on defacing you--you seem to reply to them with hypotheticals. As of the moment, his explanation seems best, and you seem like diverting the notion or possibly appealing to thought = the best way, except that the thought in this situation cannot be appealed to without basis from both sides.
Can you address them directly and say how they're untrue? Like for example this pairing system. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4668711#msg4668711) I can abide by it because it makes sense. While it doesn't explain everything (I look at Toaster and his rose-like dirt theory), it makes sense enough to agree upon--in the way that it damns the last one standing by order of elimination.
Busy checking ~D3.
My thoughts in braces.
@Spoiler above: All Web's posts detail down to these.Though the logic here is..twisty. If you're sick of fighting ye ol'snail, what have you to say about his arguments presented against you?I think that they're all over the place, and that I'm having trouble even following it at this point, which is why I asked him for a summary.yet the evidence presented on your case (that being..well, an explanation on Webby-web's notes, which I'd like to see your thoughts on rather than irritation.Spoiler: Does Web suck at mafia or not? (click to show/hide)
His (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4621151#msg4621151) words (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4621393#msg4621393) were (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4621648#msg4621648) terse (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4622392#msg4622392) BUT (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4622765#msg4622765) all his targets in the last link here may provide a clue. (Also someone who dances is just someone who dances. It depends on whether you dance with someone in the night or not. Just like me: Someone who punches doesn't directly equal someone punching anyone else who visits them in the night or not. :P)
PS: It was MYLO WHEN said bus issued. @Lenglon:
His (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4624062#msg4624062) other (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4626213#msg4626213) posts... (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4629081#msg4629081) prodded (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4629899#msg4629899) [see the 'prodded' part: Vector did answer the question correctly..just that it was a whole different question due to vague wording.] details in which the Mod was called in. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4631837#msg4631837) Yeah, he didn't kill TWS. He was an accomplice to murder.
So why discuss Web again, and not the context in which the consequence resides?
Why am I awake anyway? whatever.O sleep, my dear, my bringer of night
anyways, -snip-
Who hath brought me tears of delight
In thy arms I rest and repress
My stress and my sorrows, which in days coalesce
I wish I could sleep more than 3 hours...but I can't. SO nyah.
Extend in this situation because I don't think I'll be able in the next hours. [It'll end on a Sunday if this happens! And nobody will have an excuse to post in brevity.]
All: Opinion on No Lynch. The idea hasn't come to me until now, though.
I also forgot. LS: To expound on that lore on your 2x vote, how did TWS affect you for you to have that--his music?
Those examples I'm saying? It feels like you're somehow changing facts to forward your arguments? Like, how you present Lenglon @D2 instead of D1 claim, and where she directly claims and has add-on effects like confirming Toaster gave a rose? I can understand memory mistakes, but doing it twice in a row is intriguing, to say the least.
Also can you restate/summarize your fullclaim? This is a serious question given that your style of claiming matches Okami-Web's. Pieces and bits at a time with no structured baseline to follow. Meaning: You claimed as time progressed back then.
And poking back
How nonsense was her claim, that now the situation requires explanation on something that happened instead of denouncing its entirety?This is the first post of D4. Why would Scum Lenglon post this and put Scum Webadict in such a terrible spot before anything happens? Scum Lenglon could easily have claimed a track to Griffinpup from anyone else and probably have gotten them lynched. I'm all for scum bussing when it's useful, but I see absolutely no reason for this to happen. This isn't even WIFOM- there's zero gain in a bus at that point in the game.You are calling Lenglon town and refusing to vote for her in spite of her nonsense claim and incredibly passive play throughout the game. If that isn't a gain for scum then what is?
However, I also think you haven't fully considered the situation from Lenglon's point of view. She had no way of knowing whether other people's night actions were confirmable, and if she lied about a townie's action she risked going 2v1 and dying meaninglessly. She also couldn't claim a genuine result because she was performing the kill, and certainly couldn't lie about webadict's action due to the fact that webadict's action is seen by the target. So it's actually the most risk-free option.
Incidentally, if I'm scum, you'd have to make a WIFOM argument about night 3 too. Because that would mean me and webadict decided to kill someone who we knew would make both of our roles weaker.
In the bolded part, how did you know it would make both of your roles weaker when, seeing Web-Okami's role, it doesn't even state anything in it (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4646614;topicseen#msg4646614). The weaker in her version was the loss of a bonus-kill, but she still has the option of the faction NK.
tl;dr: There was nothing that stated a loss of power with the absence of the musician. Moreover, it seemed more like a boon if the musician died instead.
Is your role name Black Shoes or something?
Post by: Toaster on October 09, 2013, 08:21:44 am
Toaster: ...Ok, re-reading, you're really lazy to answer scant few questions poking your role, sir. Most recently is this one:What does your flavour say you actually do? Does it maybe have you spreading earth on people to help them grow roses?Leaf: No. I literally give them a rose.Your flavor literally "No"'s, huh.
How is this not an answer? There's no dirt involved- I give people a rose, plain and simple. How am I supposed to expand on that when there's nothing to expand on?
Because the more people wear roses, the more they're planted, and that's a good thing....You can't plant a dead flower. >_>
The good thing is if they pollinate. Which requires being alive.
I-How did you logic this one?
Edit: Woo, typo..
How does this make sense? I am not wearing a rose. Can you examine my body to check for roses?
Supply and demand. If there are lots of people wanting to wear roses, you have to plant more to grow more. This is good for plants.
I can, but I seriously doubt it will go anywhere.
Vector: Princess Toaster examines the gathered princesses. Is anyone- Princess Tiruin especially, wearing flowers? Any roses in particular?
Tiruin: Us flowers don't have names, silly! (No, no name. Other than my role name "the Rose.")
If you look at the effects, they're all fairly natural things (wood, grass, wool, etc.) Things a girl that was recently a flower might be attracted to. They're also things that most likely came from the castle and its grounds- nothing that was obviously brought in.
Confirmed third-party here.
For someone who gets on to me for not explaining things, you're really pulling that one out of thin air.
No, I'm not third party. I'm town, same as I have always been.
PPE: No Lynch won't work because Leafsnail has a negative vote. If we had four people with normal votes, it'd be different.
So who do you suspect more, Tiruin? Leafsnail or Lenglon?
In any case, Leafsnail has convinced me (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4671055#msg4671055) that he is town and Lenglon is not.
Vote Lenglon.
Some specific points:
This recent accusation by Lenglon (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4671881#msg4671881) is silly. There's been plenty of time since day start for Leaf to plan, and even Town Leaf could reasonably have thought about the game during the night.
I really am sick of fighting with Leafsnail, he's led lynch attempts against me every single game I've been in with him, and his style and attitude infuriates me. Still, from what you're saying, you want me to get right back into fighting with him, yet again, and that's something I'm kinda sick of doing. The fact that Leaf wasn't NK'd night 1 should be proof that I don't have a kill.
This is an appeal to emotion.
On "why would scum not have killed or blocked Town Lenglon:" This is drifting into WIFOM territory, but Lenglon didn't answer the question fully:
N2 - I was likely to be protected, I was the only claimed role and thereby was doctor bait.
She's completely ignoring the roleblocker factor. Let's think: N2 there is exactly one power role claim, and it's one that can easily out mafia. Would mafia block said role or just fire it off randomly? Again, a bit WIFOM, but it's a tough sell to believe.
As far as the legitimacy of the bus, I've played with Web enough times to know that is totally something he would come up with and do. He's not beyond throwing himself under the bus or trying something wild and crazy.
In general, though, I agree with Leafsnail's presentation of events. Lenglon's case... is pretty much "I didn't do it so it must be Leafsnail." Leaf is coming up with a plausible case to explain the events of the game. Lenglon is more "no you."
Lenglon, if you want to convince me otherwise, you're going to have to try harder than that.
Post by: Leafsnail on October 09, 2013, 10:16:59 am
@Tiruin:
Yeah I was mainly getting frustrated because I felt like I'd explained the webadict bus thing a lot of times, and because you don't seem to be grasping the reason why Toaster is almost certainly not the killer from last night. Fair enough if you're just being thorough though.
It's true that Lenglon didn't see what action Toaster used, but I don't actually think that's relevant. We know he didn't use a kill action against Jim Groovester last night, and that is enough for us to know he isn't the final mafia member.
I suppose it is possible that webadict made a mistake, but I don't think so. For one thing, he tried to argue "mod error" after a contradiction in his original claim was found. That's bizarre, because no moderator would allow a mod error to influence the game like that (particularly not a mod who pays close attention to what's happening in her games). He should have argued that yes, it's unlikely, but the mafia does have a role that makes you see yourself going to another target. So the fact that he made an impossible claim and then compounded the error by using an argument that could not have saved him makes me think it was deliberate.
What do you mean by the "mishap" on N3?
My vote is indeed a universal -1. You can see from my previous extension votes that it wasn't before.
I did explain the lore behind my powers when I claimed my flavour... and also when you asked me more recently. I got a massive confidence boost from being able to walk, and dance, and have a chance of romance again. This massive confidence increase led to a charisma increase, and more charisma mean that people value your opinion more. In other words, your vote counts for more. Then I got depressed when I lost the ability to walk and dance, and thus people began seeing my opinion in a negative light and reducing the votes for me.
Incidentally, I've thought of some fairly compelling meta-reasoning: as a moderator, I would never put both webadict's role and a hidden doublevoter on the same mafia team. That's simply because they could jump out of nowhere and snatch a victory from a situation that should have been mylo.
I...really think its all on Leafsnail here. You could've also lolhammered early in today on my 'mistake', to add to that paragraph right there on what I asked you.Lenglon could not have hammered.
Leafsnail: Since you're irritated that I ask you to 'repeatahahahahh' your notes. You thought ZU was scum back then and lynched him without expounding when I asked (noting the explicit 'mafia' note), or maybe you did-and are going along the idea of not linking back when asked. Just linking it would do something rather than flailing about and attempting a subtle ad hominem. Those things are those which I find debases your credibility in that situation.This is exactly what I mean by repetition. You asked me this earlier today, and I responded. You then ignored my answer, and now you're asking me the same question again. It is very frustrating to be asked to perform the same task again and again with no feedback.
I can't even remember anymore. Again, I ask you to look at the reasons I stated when I voted him and asking me questions about those. If I remember correctly it boiled down to
- mad passivity
- doing absolutely no scumhunting at any point (these were my initial reasons - see "He's being ridiculously passive, I don't think he's even called anyone scum all game.", which is a statement I still fully stand by)
- Solifuge's flavour seemed to imply that his role was anti-town before he fell in love with the Prince. It would have made sense for another incoming agent to not fall in love and remain anti-town.
So anyway, in a hypothetical situation that she's scum, why did you not think she would've laid down the hammer at the break of dawn, today as holding some argument?Because Lenglon could not hammer, due to it being three votes to lynch. I really don't see what else needs to be said on this point.
Plus this: Where and how did you procure those books over here? (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4669396#msg4669396)I dunno. Probably from the library?
Post by: Vector on October 09, 2013, 10:31:30 am
Leafsnail - Leafsnail, Lenglon
Toaster - Tiruin
Lenglon - Toaster
Tiruin
Not voting: none
Day end is currently scheduled for Thursday at 7:00 PM (-8GMT). One vote heard for extension to Monday at 7:00 PM (-8GMT). One more vote required to extend to Monday at 7:00 PM (-8GMT).
This is the final extension available. Make your time count.
Post by: Vector on October 09, 2013, 10:34:53 am
Vector: Princess Toaster examines the gathered princesses. Is anyone- Princess Tiruin especially, wearing flowers? Any roses in particular?
Along the hem of each black funeral dress is embroidered a string of roses.
The night information you get is the night information you get. I will not confirm or deny night actions in-thread.
Post by: Leafsnail on October 09, 2013, 10:35:05 am
I also forgot. LS: To expound on that lore on your 2x vote, how did TWS affect you for you to have that--his music?His song was so beautiful that it seemed almost magic, and it allowed me to start moving my feet like a normal young lady again. This is as opposed to having to limp around dragging big metal shoes all the time.
Those examples I'm saying? It feels like you're somehow changing facts to forward your arguments? Like, how you present Lenglon @D2 instead of D1 claim, and where she directly claims and has add-on effects like confirming Toaster gave a rose? I can understand memory mistakes, but doing it twice in a row is intriguing, to say the least.The first was a minor mistake that did not affect the rest of my argument (if I actually thought Lenglon claimed D1 I would've said that the mafia had a chance to kill him night one). The second was not what I said: I said that Lenglon saw Toaster targeting you, and that is enough to prove he did not kill Jim.
Also can you restate/summarize your fullclaim? This is a serious question given that your style of claiming matches Okami-Web's. Pieces and bits at a time with no structured baseline to follow. Meaning: You claimed as time progressed back then.I claimed my double-vote when I had to, and then the rest of my flavour during the flavour massclaim. I guess I'll bring it all together once more.
I wear black shoes.
A long time ago I was cursed to wear shoes made of iron. As well as being painful, this also forced me to drag my feet around like an old woman all the time, and made it essentially impossible for me to find a lover. I came to the castle in the hope of marrying the Prince, but when I got here I heard the beautiful music that allowed me to walk like a normal person, and dance with the Prince.
(My flavour stated nothing about a musician or what would happen if the music stopped, but "There is a musician playing the music, and if they stop playing I'll lose my confidence and thus my power" is not a hard inference to make.)
This gave me a lot of confidence that lets me double-vote etc. When the music stopped (due to TWS dying) my feet felt heavy again, and I became very depressed. Thus, I am now so uncharismatic that my vote counts negative.
How nonsense was her claim, that now the situation requires explanation on something that happened instead of denouncing its entirety?
In the bolded part, how did you know it would make both of your roles weaker when, seeing Web-Okami's role, it doesn't even state anything in it (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4646614;topicseen#msg4646614). The weaker in her version was the loss of a bonus-kill, but she still has the option of the faction NK.Maybe? Except that webadict's powers relied on his permadancing, which would go away if the musician died. Also, my role PM made it extremely obvious that I would lose my power if TWS died. Thus, me and webadict would be knowingly throwing away an extra vote by killing TWS.
tl;dr: There was nothing that stated a loss of power with the absence of the musician. Moreover, it seemed more like a boon if the musician died instead.
Is your role name Black Shoes or something?I wear black shoes. See: webadict's role PM.
Post by: Leafsnail on October 09, 2013, 10:58:06 am
Leaf, I'm having trouble keeping track of your arguments for why I'm scum because of how you're presenting them. could you please summarize the key points for me?Okay.
1. The puzzle
We know that there is a puzzle in this game, and that solving this puzzle means that the identities of the mafia members will be revealed. There is a clear and thematically appropriate pattern that points to you as the final mafia member. I have not heard any other suggestions for what the puzzle could be, or how any other hypothetical scumteam could fit a pattern.
2. The claim
Your role has nothing to do with your flavour, and indeed the flavour of your role as a whole is extremely sparse. Every other player has flipped with or claimed a role whose flavour relates to their actions in some way. Are we to believe that Vector dropped the ball on your role, and your role alone? As a further supplementary point to this, consider Toaster's claim. Your roles are clearly linked, but it doesn't feel like the roles have remotely linked flavour. Compare that to the thematic similarities and opposites we see in Black Swan/White Swan or Red Shoes/Black Shoes.
3. The daygame
I haven't really been emphasizing this enough, but your play has been extremely passive. You only voted twice in the whole of day three, for instance, and you ended up with no suspects and no vote. There are other problems too, like you clearing Tiruin of suspicion for no reason then hastily throwing out a bunch of reasoning you'd never articulated before when pressed on it.
4. The bus
I've explained several times why I think bussing explains webadict's behaviour yesterday best. Ultimately this point is mainly here to show you can be mafia though.
5. Night Four
Your claim night four is strange. Firstly, the mechanics of your role seem to be different, and no explanation is given for why. Secondly, you didn't claim your actual result in your first post, even though you could have done so.
It's also sortof unclear why you targeted Toaster and not me.
6. Process of Elimination
You yourself confirm Toaster's alibi. We all seem to agree that Tiruin probably isn't mafia. So that just leaves me and you. A me/webadict team has a number of problems, including:
- Why not block Lenglon night two, or kill her night three? Just where did webadict's night two block go, anyway? If I was his partner then I could've made the kill.
- Would Vector really give the mafia an additional kill and a hidden double-vote? Giving them both would mean they could win from mylo, meaning the town could easily be denied a chance to massclaim.
- Why kill someone who we had established would cause me to lose my additional vote, even though a double-vote is a very powerful tool in the hands of mafia members? It would also cause us to lose our additional kill, but I guess webadict's role PM isn't as obvious about that.
Post by: Tiruin on October 09, 2013, 11:33:01 am
@Tiruin:For the record, you could've done this (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4671055#msg4671055) earlier..it's by far the most convincing thing I've seen, barring speculation.
Yeah I was mainly getting frustrated because I felt like I'd explained the webadict bus thing a lot of times, and because you don't seem to be grasping the reason why Toaster is almost certainly not the killer from last night. Fair enough if you're just being thorough though.
And that you got mad like its restating but that thing wasn't restating insofar as that it wasn't stated before >.>
Incidentally, I've thought of some fairly compelling meta-reasoning: as a moderator, I would never put both webadict's role and a hidden doublevoter on the same mafia team. That's simply because they could jump out of nowhere and snatch a victory from a situation that should have been mylo.This thing too..The thought was stuck in my head for the past night including all the anything which could differentiate a double voter from the rest in this context. But you arguing the meta 'double voters are mostly always town' really didn't do good back there, as a note.
...I'm still bewildered that the depression carries on for the universal voting.
51%.I...really think its all on Leafsnail here. You could've also lolhammered early in today on my 'mistake', to add to that paragraph right there on what I asked you.Lenglon could not have hammered.
...This is where I confused myself that the -1 also pertained to..well, universally >.> My mistake. Though the reasoning stands that it has been..too easy. Like scum have gone into paranoia that they set up their own doom by trying to predict too much-if Lenglon is scum
@Lenglon:
I'm hanging on a thread here. If you're town, then fight with your darndest. Yes the implications of you tracking x, y or z carried out earlier as something very believable (only person that can confirm people--Toaster is only confirmed due to him knowing where I..slept. And I believe we can only settle the dirt thing post-game given how decisive he is on those roses. I cannot find any other way to figure it out otherwise). If you doubt the double voter (which..is quite proven given the tie in the previous days)
Quote
All votes must be in red and bold for legibility. Unvoting before voting again is not required, but appreciated. You may vote for No Lynch. You cannot conditional vote. In case of a tie, no one will be lynched. The game has soft hammers; if at any point a player has 51% of all available votes, that player will be lynched and the day will end.as seen here, (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4523945#msg4523945) and partly followed up because of..that very very weird universal vote malus.
I'd love to know why you did what you did though. And if you're scum..take it as a learning lesson, perhaps? Unsure why I'm stating this--must be the fatigue.
...Or the last scum is Toaster and he somehow knew where I slept (given that there is no implication of a rose, but I was willing to believe Lenglon's gravedirt theory (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4655188#msg4655188)...given how Ottofar got it, perhaps? (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4547900;topicseen#msg4547900) The connections are strange in that Jim was town then, but bleh. I'd really love to know who killed the Black Swan.)
this (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4623149#msg4623149) had the note of a lacking rose given how those things are issued. Your (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4578896;topicseen#msg4578896) claim matches with it though. [I find it funny that both you and Lenglon say 'eating dirt' like it was casual.]
Which is all very silly. And a flower has personal accessories somehow, like a glass bead and all those other things.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
This sets off alarm bells for some reason along with Toaster completely going off into planting rather than giving flowers and economics.Vector: Princess Toaster examines the gathered princesses. Is anyone- Princess Tiruin especially, wearing flowers? Any roses in particular?
Along the hem of each black funeral dress is embroidered a string of roses.
The night information you get is the night information you get. I will not confirm or deny night actions in-thread.
The note that if Lenglon is innocent, and that she did state explicitly that she traced Toaster to me
...
Vector:
Under what action-tag is an arsonist-ish's role kill under? The ability to tag and kill for later on? The tagging goes under...?
Yeah, wacky idea, but differentiating a role that can act--Griffionday--from a role who cannot act, which is me, then something's up with Toaster, or he really doesn't know what a rose is.
How is this not an answer? There's no dirt involved- I give people a rose, plain and simple. How am I supposed to expand on that when there's nothing to expand on?...But none of us have an inclination to even wear a rose or receive a rose. I got completely nothing on getting a rose. I don't know how demand rises for roses when you're just giving it for free, every night, which somehow incites or stirs up our inner lustyness because we see a rose.Because the more people wear roses, the more they're planted, and that's a good thing....You can't plant a dead flower. >_>
The good thing is if they pollinate. Which requires being alive.
I-How did you logic this one?
Edit: Woo, typo..
How does this make sense? I am not wearing a rose. Can you examine my body to check for roses?
Supply and demand. If there are lots of people wanting to wear roses, you have to plant more to grow more. This is good for plants.
I could glance around and admire the clothing, but given that I did admire LS clothing before and that we now know that it has roses..I got nothing.
Your role is confusing and you are a rose. You say that you like roses being picked-nobody ever picked em.
...And I'd really love to see how you view giving others roses in that way.
And for posterity, I'm sigging this for the hidden snark.
Hey, remember how the Prince fed you red herring? Maybe he'll feed you some more, since you like the taste of it so much.
PPE: Leafysnail
1. The puzzleBeautiful puzzle though. I was watching the thread like a hawk, but the puzzle lies in the essence of how everything was presented. That was a nice twist.
We know that there is a puzzle in this game, and that solving this puzzle means that the identities of the mafia members will be revealed. There is a clear and thematically appropriate pattern that points to you as the final mafia member. I have not heard any other suggestions for what the puzzle could be, or how any other hypothetical scumteam could fit a pattern.
5. Night FourShe targeted Toaster because Jim said so. And on that note, if she did anything like such, she may have targeted Jim instead.
Your claim night four is strange. Firstly, the mechanics of your role seem to be different, and no explanation is given for why. Secondly, you didn't claim your actual result in your first post, even though you could have done so.
It's also sortof unclear why you targeted Toaster and not me.
..Or you targeted Jim. The anonymity of a double voter carries great weight, but the facts beforehand prove it stable whence I saw it.
Quote
4. The bus...It doesn't thoroughly explain Web's behaviour though. A bus, to be truly convincing, needs to have both actors stage a fight.
I've explained several times why I think bussing explains webadict's behaviour yesterday best. Ultimately this point is mainly here to show you can be mafia though.
...Web just...
The last sentence could also apply to you though, if we disregard the voting pattern yesterday, and all other proof on the voting (I really doubt Vector would make a role only have a negative value apply to extensions or shortenings.)
Hey on that note!
VOTE COUNTLet's prove it twicemore.
Leafsnail - Leafsnail, Lenglon
Toaster - Tiruin
Lenglon - Toaster
Tiruin
Not voting: none
Day end is currently scheduled for Thursday at 7:00 PM (-8GMT). One vote heard for extension to Monday at 7:00 PM (-8GMT). One more vote required to extend to Monday at 7:00 PM (-8GMT).
This is the final extension available. Make your time count.
Someone else extend then ask Vector for an extend count. If what Leafsnail says is true, then his opposition is worthless.
Unvote, Lenglon
Post by: Toaster on October 09, 2013, 11:38:28 am
Post by: Tiruin on October 09, 2013, 11:46:54 am
Or, alternately, his oppose is actually an extend, and that's enough to extend.Impossible. The last time, it need-
..Huh, that's plausible. You extended, he 'extended', I extended. We needed 3 to extend.
But why would anyone lie about a trivial thing like that?
Post by: Toaster on October 09, 2013, 11:58:25 am
Post by: Tiruin on October 09, 2013, 12:11:50 pm
The lie being that..well, I see it that if what you say is true, it should be some sort of an opposite effect.
...and he did say it was universal.
Post by: Leafsnail on October 09, 2013, 12:32:52 pm
Post by: Vector on October 09, 2013, 08:46:40 pm
Flavor post coming up in a bit.
Post by: Tiruin on October 09, 2013, 09:57:03 pm
Extend[...]
Oppose extension.
Extension granted until Monday 7:00 PM (-8GMT). No further extensions on Day 5 available.I don't even.
OK. [Typo earlier, that was 2 to extend]
Or, alternately, his oppose is actually an extend, and that's enough to extend....
That is one really weird role.
Details on your depression, Leafsnail?
One does not just get melancholic poetry when one is depressed.
So we have
Leafsnail who wears Black shoes
Lenglon the Lily
Toaster the Rose
And me who shall not be named.
..Err, k?
Lenglon: Busy busy?
Toaster: Any idea on why nobody has a notice of a rose? I didn't get anything on me receiving a rose.
Post by: Vector on October 10, 2013, 12:00:05 am
...Can I also examine that mask I got? Or remember on how it was if I don't have it?
The old flavor is linked in the OP.
Quote
Vector:
Under what action-tag is an arsonist-ish's role kill under? The ability to tag and kill for later on? The tagging goes under...?
I've got no idea what you mean by this.
Why is it that he looks so different..now?
...
Did Semele have an effect here?
"S-" It would be rude to repeat. "Someone you knew?"
Ask.
It isn't that Horatio's bones have changed, but that when he shuts himself up tight you feel that you have seen his essential self; that to know Horatio is not to know whatever emotion trickles out in strange jets, as from a broken pipe under pressure, but his chitinous, well-battened exterior. For it is at his most neutral, his most seemingly uncaring, that you can detect the tumultuous froth of his sentiment taking form. There he walls himself in foot-thick indifference, and admits his vulnerability with the steel in his gray eyes. You drink in everything, piece by piece, searching for the coldest.
Hence when you say: "Se-Someone you knew?" and Horatio says nothing, it is not his wiping the palms of his faintly shaking hands on his trousers again that interests you, but the calm resoluteness with which he replies:
"No matter."
And departs, slowly, rolling his shirtsleeves to the elbow and taking his time.
It is near sunset and growing cold when you see him again. You and the other girls have lit a fire with some difficulty and are shivering around it when he returns, freshly shaven and holding a clay jar.
"Come with me," he says, and leaves before you can say anything. Of course you follow. You go wherever there's anything interesting to be seen, or secrets left buried.
"Where are we going?" you ask.
"To repair a mistake."
"Wait here, don't move, and don't say a word," Horatio tells you at the guardhouse door. After you nod, he enters. The guardsmen are gathered around the fireplace, eating the musician's hard bread with beer, chuckling over something.
"Gentlemen!" he says. "I bid you good evening."
"Oh--it's Semele!" says Alexandersen. "The lady of the hour."
"Ah, even you know the famed lovers lines: 'My sweet love! You are as bountiful as the rose at dawn, and embracing you would be to expire like Semele--bursting with dark ripeness and the memory of wine,'" says Horatio. "You won't mind if I join you, then."
"I insist," says Adolf, and Horatio takes his place by the fire. The other men give him uneasy looks, part amused, part disturbed.
"Rest easy," says Horatio, smiling at them. "I shan't tell the Prince anything. You were japing before I came here. Go on."
One of the younger guards, who cannot have seen more than seventeen summers, says, sniggering: "Go on and read the next bit, Captain."
Alexandersen extracts a hand-sewn book. Licking his finger, he flicks through the pages until finding something that makes him smile.
"You'll have to tell us, S'mele," says Alexandersen, "whether what it says here is actually true. From December of last year. 'It is cold and under this snow all of us are hungry.'"
Someone whistles.
"Oh, is that my journal you have there?" says Horatio. "Yes, last year was rather chilly. You have the right of it."
"'Some of us may be hungrier than others. My bones have not felt any warmth for four months now. Winter is--' I can't read it. How many f's is that? Three?"
"'Penance enough,'" says Horatio over the general laughter.
"'Winter is penance enough,' then. 'The Prince has warm hands. I wonder what would happen if I asked him to share his heat with me. I cannot write my im--'"
"I would hazard a guess that it says 'imaginings.'"
"'I cannot write my imaginings here. I do not have enough words.'"
"That good, huh?" says one of the guards, elbowing him.
"Read on," says Horatio. "It improves."
"'Fifteenth of December. A book of poesie in one hand, a scourge in the other.'"
"Is that how you like it?"
"Not especially, though I appreciate your attentiveness."
"'I have copied lines here. "Would that all fleshly tortures be ended by melting into one purer than I; and all spurts and wracks run into one great river. Then would each separation bodily rend us, each meeting a sinner's burning loss--of senses." Ah, Sigfred, what would you say? Would you say you loved me? Or would you push me away? Would you accept me for an evening--a single night by the fire?'"
"Ah yes," says Horatio wistfully. "That was certainly a very cold winter."
The silence is broken by the youngest guard, who says in a loud whisper: "Can't the fool tell we're making fun of him?"
"You find it amusing only because you are unacquainted with the urge to offer pleasure. Tell me--in this guardhouse so full of swords and spears, do you truly know nothing of the thrust and heft of warmer weapons?"
He runs a finger about the lid of the jar.
"You are ignorant of all that makes life worth living, friends, if you think unfeeling acceptance could glow beside the burning will to give," Horatio says softly, still toying with the lid. "I know your painted women are not enough for you. Strange, for those who sing so loud and lustily of brotherhood to never seek satisfaction in each other."
"What's that you've got there?" says Alexandersen, beady eyes fixed on the jar.
Horatio smiles at him.
"Oil."
In the ensuing shock he plucks the book from Adolf's hands, douses it with the jar's contents, and throws it into the fire. The pages burn bright, and smolder.
"I hope," says Horatio, "that we have all learned something this evening."
With that he turns on his heel, meets you at the door, closes it firmly behind him.
"Come along," he says. "Before they regain their senses."
You say nothing for a while, as you walk. Beside you, Horatio is looking very straight ahead and draws shaky breaths.
"Weren't you scared they would hurt you?" you say at last, for want of anything else.
"With that book in their hands," he says, "I was dead already."
You don't know what to say, for once.
"The Prince will be framed for the girl's heinous and supernatural murder," says Horatio. "This revelation will be more than enough, when added to all the rest of it, to end his rule and put the people in a froth for his head. But, at the very least, I can destroy the evidence you exposed."
"I didn't mean--"
"Once all this is over, I recommend that you leave this place and never return.
"Now, if you will excuse me," he says, "I have something else to bury."
Post by: Leafsnail on October 10, 2013, 06:26:05 am
Post by: Toaster on October 10, 2013, 07:53:13 am
Toaster: Any idea on why nobody has a notice of a rose? I didn't get anything on me receiving a rose.
Probably because
The night information you get is the night information you get. I will not confirm or deny night actions in-thread.
Can you see why self-confirming night actions might be a bit game-breaking?
Lenglon: Busy busy?
Defeated, I'd wager.
Post by: Tiruin on October 10, 2013, 08:07:52 am
...So why aren't you guys doing anything on the flavor?Lenglon: Busy busy?
Defeated, I'd wager.
Post by: Lenglon on October 10, 2013, 03:31:13 pm
you'd lose that wager, I'm legit busy and when I have had opportunity I've been going back and trying to figure out the puzzle myself, so far without success, but I'm still working on it. I don't seem to be able to refuse leafsnail without have an alternate answer, even though I still think his "solution" isn't viable.Lenglon: Busy busy?
Defeated, I'd wager.
Post by: Leafsnail on October 10, 2013, 03:58:37 pm
Post by: Tiruin on October 10, 2013, 09:04:07 pm
A certain other scum at that time period.
...And most of what LS boiled down to is that you lied and did the kills and that..well, you lied. It has shaky ground to stand on, of course, but comparing the [QUITE_MUCH_EVERYTHING] about certain people (I'm still wondering why you're clearing Toaster/Me if you're scum..perhaps to focus us on LS or you?), it drifts down to you here.
I mean, there were millions of opportunities to attack me and procedurally poke me as scum..erm, you didn't--Toaster didn't. Leafsnail is grumpy but that's how I love his cleverness, so that's why I grilled him beforehand with the power of formatting.
So..back to the matter at hand. Active voice and not passive voice--the answer you gave to my query on 'why you did what you did' is preferably answered not by a hypothetical (it's just gone confusing down south now..I mean, Toaster gives roses. Nobody gets roses. Vector can't confirm it UNLESS an acting person who got...done up by him felt a change in...scenery. {in retrospect, it is quite a good coverstory with quite a simple excuse..and the annoying hook on hilarity}).
Meaning: What's your side to the story? Sure, Leafsnail may probably be lying his head off right now. And sure, he probably would've discussed the puzzle with his scumbuddies over quicktopic, but the acuity of it all (red/white/black in their essential thoughts?) really nudged me to doubt his scumminess.
And unless he's a vote-empowerer, but now with only a -1 vote to either...spacial things like extends/opposing such, then I can't think of any other way to check. His double vote worked. He refused to vote yesterday--while this can be attributed to just hiding it out, I checked vote patterns and Web-Okami's votes have hit him too under curious reason--and that while his 'doing nothing' would be doubtful that he himself did lies to do the kills (replace the thought of you with him back then) it makes little difference given how we don't know who tracked who).
I'd really love to know why you tracked Toaster..like that. Because something's not adding up, if so, and checking back in this state = pressure overload on my part.
Toaster Other than reacting on the current time (which...seems muchly like you this whole game), could you give a detailed read on all three other people, starting from D1? Differentiate Leafsnail from Lenglon is I am excluded in your suspicious list. Why wasn't I in that list, if so? Did my actions pertaining to flavor become a factor in doing such?
Last: Why...did you check where I slept and announce a list of choices to pick?
Post by: Tiruin on October 10, 2013, 09:34:22 pm
Post by: Vector on October 10, 2013, 09:58:16 pm
Day end scheduled for Monday at 7:00 (-8GMT). No more extensions on Day 5 are available.
Post by: Tiruin on October 10, 2013, 10:10:03 pm
Try to find the Prince and..well, tell him of recent events as well as the corpse in his room.
...Try to be useful on his side.
Post by: Lenglon on October 11, 2013, 12:07:24 am
he is ignoring large amounts of data, and fabricating much more from tenuious reasons to make his "pattern" look consistant.
here's the full data set according to using the search function on Vector's posts:
Spoiler: Full Red/White/Black data set (click to show/hide)
he's pulling the entire "solution" he's proposed out of his overly-entitled-arse. I still don't know what the solution is, but I'm pretty sure that it isn't color-based. there's too much inconsistency.
Now then, next accusation of me. Have I been passive? yes. I don't manage being in two different active Mafia games at the same time very well, and I decided early on that I was going to focus on Witch's coven more heavilly than Lonely prince, because it started first and both seemed RP-heavy, and all mafia games are lower in priority to me than ER from the RtD forum. So yes, the amount of effort I've put into this has suffered, and I suppose I should apologize for that.
as for my claim being lacking, go bug vector about it post-game if you're really that caught-up on there being a disconnect. reality is what it is. I follow people around because I feel lacking and don't have any other way to try to help. buzz off.
Leaf's theory of Web encouraging a bus requires us to take for granted that web is bad at mafia. I would expect web to fight hard to live against a bus attempt at MYLO, and just not counterattack very hard. that way he still has a chance at winning there and then, without putting his scumbuddy in any danger. Web had nothing to lose and everything to gain, assuming that he was being bussed, from fighting to survive. so why didn't he?
my flavor from N4 is lacking...
what?
once again, take it up with vector post-game. I don't write the stuff.
and how on earth is it unclear why I followed Toaster N4? I was doing what Jim the confirmed townie asked me to do in order to clear toaster.
Tiruin:
My... story?
I'm a little confused what you mean by that, I thought I answered that concisely back here:
well, N1 I tried to eat dirt with unhappy consequences, and my feet failed at drinking water. N2 my flavor was about the dream Jim gave me, N3 I thought about the implications of eating fruit and debated if it was moral or immoral to do so as a lily (which was kinda weird to read because of my odd speech patterns in my pms), and N4 I had a nightmare of lilies rotting.My night actions have been:
N1: Follow Soli to Griffday
N2: Follow Toaster to Web2
N3: Follow Web2 to Sheep
N4: Follow Toaster to Tiruin
Why did I follow Soli N1? Vote-shift at end-of-day that normally would have tied the vote.
Why did I follow Toaster N2? I honestly don't remember, its been a long time since then.
Why did I follow Web2 N3? Refusal to claim at mass-claim.
Why did I follow Toaster N4? I was working with Jim's plan.
Toaster, if I'm reading your vote-post correctly, you're voting me because Leaf made me mad, stating that me saying such is an emotional appeal and therefore I'm scum. If you'll take a look at any other game I've played, you'll see that I have been honest about how I'm feeling very consistantly throughout. In fact, Toaster: I challenge you to find a single game of mafia I have ever played where I haven't stated my emotional state or otherwise done something that by your hyper-sensitive criteria is an emotional appeal.
Post by: Lenglon on October 11, 2013, 02:09:56 am
Lenglon: Adding to the list of questions to answer, are you connected with Toaster in some way? Lovers/Brothers or something?Not as far as I'm aware, but with the way that roles are linked in this game, it could be possible anyway.
Post by: Lenglon on October 11, 2013, 02:12:30 am
Post by: Tiruin on October 11, 2013, 04:58:56 am
me, you, rosegirl and black shoes.
Note: Most of those color consistencies (though..overt, as said) pertain to objects. Wait, will read up and post on the weekend-Sunday my time-ish.
I find it weird that Toaster is receiving human dreams as opposed to the more simplistic lily dreams you're getting.
Quote
Prince feeds Tiruin Red herring in response to questions about why people were invited, it is metioned to be delicious red herrring, but that there is a lot of it.I got the feeling that it's like such, and that most of the flavor is just deeeelicious flavor, so I'm eating more of it.
Besides, it helps writing skills. And is darn awesome to eat! >:D
Quote
prince's face in the bar is red and puffyI don't think this is any lead at all. This is sorta like the general idea of someone in great melancholy or distress..like when you cry? Yeah.
Quote
Leafsnail on Day 3: "Could we talk about flowers for a moment, by the way? We were all wearing red roses at the start. My role PM mentions me wearing yellow roses later. Does anyone have any mentions of wearing lillies in theirs?" - notice that yellow is left unmentioned in his theorizing.This isn't a question to Leafsnail? It sounds like it should be given how..er, how important it was to him before.
...I really find the apparent use of red, white and black really overt.
Quote
horatio still has black hairIt has specks of white...well, I didn't know this given my meetings with him.
Thus leading to the totally IC-me not guessing magic is going on. Which is me speculating.
Quote
as for my claim being lacking, go bug vector about it post-game if you're really that caught-up on there being a disconnect. reality is what it is. I follow people around because I feel lacking and don't have any other way to try to help. buzz off.Alright, I'll bug you now on what you can reveal.
Are there any formatting inconsistencies that anyone in their normal writer's mood would do to yours? Toasters has a funny small caps on everything, and an all caps on his CLAN CLAN CLAN. The ROSE CLAN is mentioned 3 times in his PM. I have no idea how every exact detail is important in this case.
Next: Are you of simple mind? Is your flavor detailed in a simple manner? Are you easily pleased? Why do you choose to follow people-and how do you follow people? (If it's just 'you follow people', then what are the small details you notice when you follow people?)
Quote
Toaster, if I'm reading your vote-post correctly, you're voting me because Leaf made me mad, stating that me saying such is an emotional appeal and therefore I'm scum. If you'll take a look at any other game I've played, you'll see that I have been honest about how I'm feeling very consistantly throughout. In fact, Toaster: I challenge you to find a single game of mafia I have ever played where I haven't stated my emotional state or otherwise done something that by your hyper-sensitive criteria is an emotional appeal....I'd give my word on this, but I'm interested too, on this part, Toaster.
Leafsnail: In the hypothetical scenario of you being scum, why would you direct the focus on Lenglon given that she proved Toaster as innocent? Occam's Razor?
PFP - Yarr exams.
Post by: Tiruin on October 11, 2013, 05:02:37 am
Leafsnail: In the hypothetical scenario of you being scum, why would you direct the focus on Lenglon given that she proved Toaster as innocent? Occam's Razor? Scum may also be bulletproof..as referenced from...one of the games wherein Vector was scum and had a recruiting option when she was the only one last alive I think its a BYOR?
You attacked Lenglon because she outs me without substantial basis-how is this a scumtell?
You've outed me by basis of logic--elimination process.
Of course, this is all a hypothetical scenario.
Post by: Toaster on October 11, 2013, 07:59:41 am
Toaster Other than reacting on the current time (which...seems muchly like you this whole game), could you give a detailed read on all three other people, starting from D1? Differentiate Leafsnail from Lenglon is I am excluded in your suspicious list. Why wasn't I in that list, if so? Did my actions pertaining to flavor become a factor in doing such?
More repetitive work, eh?
Let me handle the instant answers and I'll get back to you on that.
Quote
Differentiate Leafsnail from Lenglon is I am excluded in your suspicious list.
I don't know what this is supposed to say.
Quote
Last: Why...did you check where I slept and announce a list of choices to pick?
The night result PM specifically mentioned you were asleep in a laundry basket. I figured it'd be a way to double check you while still proving I had actioned you.
As for your question about the case on Lenglon, see right below.
Lenglon: You're picking up on a single point and trying to make it my whole case. This is not true. Also, appealing to your own meta is never a valid defense. Even if it is true and you remove that point entirely, the rest of the case still holds up. Don't strawman me.
As far as for your analysis of the color theory, you've taken every mention of those three colors from flavor, dumped them together, and spoilered it, without going in to any detailed analysis. You're taking a data dump and trying to make it your case- it doesn't work that way.
Post by: Toaster on October 11, 2013, 08:34:46 am
Leafsnail I have a lot of trouble reading (especially after Prince's Guard and an old Vote Mafia where he totally fooled me), so I get leery around him. At first I thought his solution to the puzzle was bogus, but as he posted more arguments his version of events seemed quite plausible.
Lenglon... to be honest, I've always had trouble distinguishing between inexperienced players and scum play. She has been passive all game, and squirrelly with her vote (see D3, in particular.) Notably today, the calling out of my track without claiming a destination was an error. Finally, she's not really offering any alternative other than "it's not me so it must be Leafsnail." Her last theory was just some reasons it wasn't her, not reasons why it was someone else. In fact, I'm not sure she's posted any strong accusations against anyone besides Solifuge for being tracked to a kill, and that was solely based on a night result.
Post by: Leafsnail on October 11, 2013, 11:18:15 am
Leafsnail: In the hypothetical scenario of you being scum, why would you direct the focus on Lenglon given that she proved Toaster as innocent? Occam's Razor?I wouldn't. I'd go for you because then I wouldn't have to go through tonnes of explanations as to how the scumteam did the night 2, 3 and 4 kills (I could instead just say "Tiruin did them"). The only benefit I can see of attacking Lenglon in this hypothetical is that the puzzle points to her.
Post by: Leafsnail on October 11, 2013, 11:28:26 am
Scum may also be bulletproof..as referenced from...one of the games wherein Vector was scum and had a recruiting option when she was the only one last alive I think its a BYOR?Huh? I have no idea what you are talking about. The two examples of bulletproof scum I would bring up:
- Paranormal Mafia Series: Tough Doppelganger. It isn't just a "might be mafia" role, it's a mafia only role.
- Xylbot IRC Mafia (and thus KotM too): Godfather is immune to kills as well as inspections.
I don't see how you could regard it as an impossibility when it appears in two of the most popular rulesets.
You attacked Lenglon because she outs me without substantial basis-how is this a scumtell?Because discarding the possibility of someone being scum without any reasons implies that you don't actually give a shit about who's being lynched, as long as it's not you. If Lenglon were town, she'd want to think about the question "Is Tiruin scum?" rather than listing you as town for no reason.
You've outed me by basis of logic--elimination process.That is a true fact. I don't see how it's at all related to what Lenglon did, which was:
- Toaster is town because he has an alibi
- Tiruin is town because [no reasons given until pressed on it]
- Therefore Leafsnail is scum by PoE
As compared to my
- Lenglon is scum because the puzzle points at her and there are a bunch of other reasons to suspect her
- Therefore Tiruin is town by PoE
It's the second step in Lenglon's logic that was the problem. Not the basic logical step at the end.
Post by: Leafsnail on October 11, 2013, 11:58:15 am
here's the full data set according to using the search function on Vector's posts:Why would the fact that Vector mentions colours sometimes in her flavour undermine my solution to the puzzle in any way? I've identified a colour triangle made up of three pairs, with each person in those pairs clearly representing their own colour thematically. That's entirely different to just having words mentioned sometimes.
Leafsnail on Day 3: "Could we talk about flowers for a moment, by the way? We were all wearing red roses at the start. My role PM mentions me wearing yellow roses later. Does anyone have any mentions of wearing lillies in theirs?" - notice that yellow is left unmentioned in his theorizing.That's because there are no yellow roles in this game. Also yellow isn't a colour with fundamental, cross-cultural meaning in the same way as red, white and black are.
You list of mentions containing colours is feeble and you know it. My role has "black" in the name. You and Toaster are flowers that are white and red, and you are tied deeply to the symbolism attached to those two colours (as are your roles - you yourself said your motivation relates to purity, and Toaster's relates to sexuality). Having colours mentioned once in a flavour PM isn't remotely the same.
I like how you spend the rest of your post showing examples of Vector hammering home that the colours are important. The Prince dressed in black to mourn the death of his suitors. The brides wore white dresses which are universally known as a symbol of purity, but decided to wear red roses as well to show their sexual availability. Don't you find the fact that Vector kept mentioning these three colours and associating them with their traditional meanings interesting? As if, say, she was hinting as to the nature of the puzzle?
Instances of red, white, and black in vector's posts:Nice catch, I guess Vector hinted at the puzzle pretty early.
pre-game:
Prince dressed in black as girls arrive
prince's bedchambers have red drapes and white sheets
"they were asked to wear matching white dresses and satin slippers. And on the first day, by their own mutual decision, they all wore crowns of crimson roses in their hair."So do you think it's a coincidence that Vector keeps putting red, white and black together in the flavour? Because to me these seem like hints that red, white and black are the crucial colours in this game. Particularly the first two - the white clearly represents purity, the black clearly represents death and the red roses represent sexuality. The blood is less obvious, but think about the symbolism of white dresses being stained red with blood for a bit.
...
"They fussed over who had said they would wear white and who would not, but after the second evening all who could wore black." only one had horatio tie a black ribbon about her neck.
"We understood each other, our mutual fears, and marked ourselves with mourning clothes as I always had--if only with the suspicion that more would die, and we could no longer bear to see the red against the white."
...
"His eyes were red with crying (I had so seldom seen him cry, he who I knew all my life), his face was white as ash, and in his black clothes he looked like a ghoul." speaking of horatio's reaction to griffday's death.
...
Soli had black bruises, red-rimmed eyes, and a white shirt.
additionally, this is where it is mentioned specifically that evil will have an easier time solving the puzzle than good will, and yet none of leaf's conclusions have to do with the flavor of ottofar's or web's role PMs. If such was the case, then why isn't anything from that showing?That's a really strange thing to say, considering that reading webadict's role PM (white stained with red) is what caused me to realize the symbolism of red and white (although if I had read the flavour more carefully I probably could have done so when the Prince used the same metaphor) and thus start my chain of reasoning. In any case, the scum would be able to solve my proposed puzzle much more easily, because they know three roles (two of which have colours in their names), and could probably see the colour pattern very quickly just for that reason. The fact that the Black Swan knows of a white partner means that the others could infer that maybe they have coloured partners too.
Both flipped mafia roles also hinted at the symbolism of their colours pretty heavily, and I'm guessing yours does too.
jim had a "sopping red wound" in her chest.Are you seriously telling me that this line goes against the "red represents sex" theory
griffday the hopefull prince has a lock of bright red hair.I guess this is worth addressing - yeah, it's possible that other players like Tiruin had some kind of colour puzzle associated with them too. But it doesn't matter now.
notice how much of this Leaf is ignoring? notice how much Leaf had to extrapolate to associate everyone with a color?I'm honestly baffled as to how you could compile a post full of examples of the moderator emphasizing the importance of red, white and black (often together, and associated with their symbolic meanings), then concluding "Actually, these colours don't matter at all".
he's pulling the entire "solution" he's proposed out of his overly-entitled-arse. I still don't know what the solution is, but I'm pretty sure that it isn't color-based. there's too much inconsistency.
Leaf's theory of Web encouraging a bus requires us to take for granted that web is bad at mafia. I would expect web to fight hard to live against a bus attempt at MYLO, and just not counterattack very hard. that way he still has a chance at winning there and then, without putting his scumbuddy in any danger. Web had nothing to lose and everything to gain, assuming that he was being bussed, from fighting to survive. so why didn't he?Your theory of web not encouraging a bus requires us to believe that webadict is worse at mafia, because in that theory webadict made a suicidal claim for absolutely no reason. You can't attack my theory if your theory's explanation is worse.
In any case, if you don't want scrutiny to be placed on your partner, laying down and dying isn't a bad option.
Post by: Leafsnail on October 11, 2013, 12:04:36 pm
Post by: Tiruin on October 11, 2013, 12:17:18 pm
On this point, I'm unsure why the course of thought traveled straight at 'Web is bad at mafia' given the hypothetical A and B mentioned earlier Lenglon. WHile that (this?) didn't explain how Web's behavior was like, I could conclude that his defeatism was in perhaps to bolster your find on him given that..well, he sought out excuse in a most unfathomable way.Leaf's theory of Web encouraging a bus requires us to take for granted that web is bad at mafia. I would expect web to fight hard to live against a bus attempt at MYLO, and just not counterattack very hard. that way he still has a chance at winning there and then, without putting his scumbuddy in any danger. Web had nothing to lose and everything to gain, assuming that he was being bussed, from fighting to survive. so why didn't he?Your theory of web not encouraging a bus requires us to believe that webadict is worse at mafia, because in that theory webadict made a suicidal claim for absolutely no reason. You can't attack my theory if your theory's explanation is worse.
In any case, if you don't want scrutiny to be placed on your partner, laying down and dying isn't a bad option.
Vector's error.
Bring out the bus'ing idea, and you've a good plan. It didn't make sense that he didn't fight, but it makes sense that he gave up--who can contend with a logical point such as a tracking target?
...Still awaiting your piece of the cake, Lenglon.
Lenglon: On your case-why did you pick Toaster instead of me (I mean, yeah I can get that he's a scummy scum appliance back then), but you didn't pick me as your primary choice because. . .?Leafsnail: In the hypothetical scenario of you being scum, why would you direct the focus on Lenglon given that she proved Toaster as innocent? Occam's Razor?I wouldn't. I'd go for you because then I wouldn't have to go through tonnes of explanations as to how the scumteam did the night 2, 3 and 4 kills (I could instead just say "Tiruin did them"). The only benefit I can see of attacking Lenglon in this hypothetical is that the puzzle points to her.
How do you trust me here?
Same to Leafsnail, except why he's picking me in that scenario.
I've been musing about it and. . .griffday the hopefull prince has a lock of bright red hair.I guess this is worth addressing - yeah, it's possible that other players like Tiruin had some kind of colour puzzle associated with them too. But it doesn't matter now.
Quite not. I can't see any relation within that context of that color-line in between me and the nice prince other than throw Vector questions about his past given that I've a seeming relation with him (confirmed, given that..well, Sigfred doesn't talk about the younger brother for some reason).
Anyway: This puzzle of colors. It somehow doesn't still hold-it feels incomplete, but complete enough to find out who is what alignment. I mean, Horatio's description. It changed as of late.
So has mine when i wore a mask (some shoddy piece of cloth making me look good :O Check Adolf too. Back in the days, when we did a direct examination of the other person, even if specified or not, we just..looked at...err, generalities. Dresses. Stuff like that.) I'm wondering if that has a tie-in with the puzzle or just a foreshadowing of the final flavor which was the prelude of the Prince's in media res-like introduction.
Ok, woah, hold it. That kind of wound being red pertains to blood and not..jim had a "sopping red wound" in her chest.Are you seriously telling me that this line goes against the "red represents sex" theory
...oh gods why are you even saying that?!
Toaster: How did you become sentient again? Who took care of you, that you knew of your surroundings and learned to love the Prince? Do you specifically love the prince, or something else related to him?
Post by: Toaster on October 11, 2013, 12:59:10 pm
Tiruin:
Toaster: How did you become sentient again? Who took care of you, that you knew of your surroundings and learned to love the Prince? Do you specifically love the prince, or something else related to him?
For the first two, no idea. Nothing like that is ever mentioned- just something along the lines of "You were a rose until you were a girl." It was specifically mentioned that this confused me.
I think the Prince is attractive. He paid me some compliments and smiled, which felt like sunshine. I'd love to stay here and feel that glow some more. If I did stay here, I could also get lots of roses planted.
Also, on the lock of red hair- It is mentioned that Tiruin has brown hair with red undertones. Perhaps it was red until SOMETHING made it more brown.
Spoiler: Wonder what that could be? (click to show/hide)
Post by: Leafsnail on October 11, 2013, 02:25:12 pm
Same to Leafsnail, except why he's picking me in that scenario.It'd just be a lot easier. For Lenglon I have to come up with an explanation for three nightkills, that can be attacked and become diversions from my main points. For you I could just say "Tiruin did all the kills".
Anyway: This puzzle of colors. It somehow doesn't still hold-it feels incomplete, but complete enough to find out who is what alignment. I mean, Horatio's description. It changed as of late.I agree. There could well be another level to the puzzle that explains the rest of the setup. I think I've identified the key part, though.
Ok, woah, hold it. That kind of wound being red pertains to blood and not..I once had a discussion with Vector about whether the uniforms in Attack on Titan were meant to be reminiscent of bondage gear. She is definitely capable of thinking like this.
...oh gods why are you even saying that?!
Also that scene seems to fit the colour themes pretty well. Black hair because she's the god of death, white cuffs for the innocent prince and red for the yonic symbolism.
Post by: Leafsnail on October 11, 2013, 02:25:57 pm
Post by: Toaster on October 11, 2013, 03:05:10 pm
Post by: Tiruin on October 11, 2013, 05:46:16 pm
You could say the last, and what would make you think that it would work?Same to Leafsnail, except why he's picking me in that scenario.It'd just be a lot easier. For Lenglon I have to come up with an explanation for three nightkills, that can be attacked and become diversions from my main points. For you I could just say "Tiruin did all the kills".
...For Lenglon..seems to be exactly what you did, however the main points would probably be. . .?
Post by: Tiruin on October 11, 2013, 06:07:02 pm
On the second part: Which I said before, i think it's a bit too much of a stretch to attach symbolism to everything (having learned it since the herring episode), or perhaps just to give emphasis to the situation.Ok, woah, hold it. That kind of wound being red pertains to blood and not..Also that scene seems to fit the colour themes pretty well. Black hair because she's the god of death, white cuffs for the innocent prince and red for the yonic symbolism.
...oh gods why are you even saying that?!
When you said yonic, you really mean..? Simpler word on that adjective please. The dictionary...didn't help. Because the symbolism in that case would imply a lot deeper thing given the corpse in the bed.
Quote
I once had a discussion with Vector about whether the uniforms in Attack on Titan were meant to be reminiscent of bondage gear. She is definitely capable of thinking like this.Ah.
Ok! O_o
I...don't see how that relates to the situation in game.
Post by: Tiruin on October 11, 2013, 06:12:50 pm
That, or since she's the only person to be alive post-Night would probably mean that she needs to kill everynight.
Vector: Would you show any added details on a roleflip when it comes to how they live or die? Do you only remove the flavor in the role when it flips if there are any changes to said role?
Post by: Leafsnail on October 11, 2013, 06:56:57 pm
You could say the last, and what would make you think that it would work?I dunno, I guess I didn't put that much thought into a hypothetical situation that is not the real one. Lenglon did have a couple of barriers that appeared to make her not scum, while you do not. I'd probably just make some shit up to get you lynched like I usually do as scum.
...For Lenglon..seems to be exactly what you did, however the main points would probably be. . .?
On the second part: Which I said before, i think it's a bit too much of a stretch to attach symbolism to everything (having learned it since the herring episode), or perhaps just to give emphasis to the situation.It isn't when it keeps being brought up again and again meaning the same things. You clearly have to make some inferences to solve the puzzle.
When you said yonic, you really mean..? Simpler word on that adjective please. The dictionary...didn't help. Because the symbolism in that case would imply a lot deeper thing given the corpse in the bed.Vagina-esque.
Ah.I'm saying I think Vector is capable of writing sexual subtexts into things. That's all really, it's not a major point.
Ok! O_o
I...don't see how that relates to the situation in game.
Post by: Tiruin on October 11, 2013, 07:03:58 pm
I'm saying I think Vector is capable of writing sexual subtexts into things. That's all really, it's not a major point.Bleh, her writing skills are real good is what I thought you meant and that she knows how to allude ideas hidden behind the more superficial notions, is what I also thought you meant. Silly Leafsnail.
...And that I was thinking that there was something you'd say about free speculation. Ahah. :I
My point exactly.When you said yonic, you really mean..? Simpler word on that adjective please. The dictionary...didn't help. Because the symbolism in that case would imply a lot deeper thing given the corpse in the bed.Vagina-esque.
...We're talking about the chest.
Very good catch.On the second part: Which I said before, i think it's a bit too much of a stretch to attach symbolism to everything (having learned it since the herring episode), or perhaps just to give emphasis to the situation.It isn't when it keeps being brought up again and again meaning the same things. You clearly have to make some inferences to solve the puzzle.
I hope Lenglon's not held up by RL though.. :/
Problem is, would it work? Also I found what I was referring to earlier - the bulletproof thingy in this quote (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=124335.msg4250315#msg4250315)You could say the last, and what would make you think that it would work?I dunno, I guess I didn't put that much thought into a hypothetical situation that is not the real one. Lenglon did have a couple of barriers that appeared to make her not scum, while you do not. I'd probably just make some shit up to get you lynched like I usually do as scum.
...For Lenglon..seems to be exactly what you did, however the main points would probably be. . .?
Scum may also be bulletproof..as referenced from...one of the games wherein Vector was scum and had a recruiting option when she was the only one last alive I think its a BYOR?Huh? I have no idea what you are talking about. The two examples of bulletproof scum I would bring up:
- Paranormal Mafia Series: Tough Doppelganger. It isn't just a "might be mafia" role, it's a mafia only role.
- Xylbot IRC Mafia (and thus KotM too): Godfather is immune to kills as well as inspections.
I don't see how you could regard it as an impossibility when it appears in two of the most popular rulesets.
Post by: Vector on October 11, 2013, 10:42:55 pm
wait a sec, um, Vector: has Horatio's hair changed color over the past days?
No.
How much can five days change a man?
Vector: Would you show any added details on a roleflip when it comes to how they live or die? Do you only remove the flavor in the role when it flips if there are any changes to said role?
I give you the initial PM and all mechanical role details of changed roles on death, and I remove any data that would directly endanger other players. For example, if Ottofar had not been the first cohort member to flip, the group would not have been named "The Black Swan's Cohort," but rather just "The Cohort."
You will not get the N2, N3, etc. action/flavor PMs--or information that would be found in them--until the game ends. Death has a cost, and you have the right to keep your own secrets or give them up as you will.
I'll write up the next flavor segment tonight or tomorrow morning. I've got a pretty good idea of where I'm going with it.
Post by: Lenglon on October 12, 2013, 04:27:45 am
stop listening to the random clapping and look for the real signal.
Tiruin, you want to know why I trust you?
to be honest, I'm mostly going with my gut here, you don't "feel" malevolent.
however, I both think that the night action flavor from last night gives you very little time to have done anything to anyone without being spotted, and that your actions today in particular are unlikely to be those of scum, You would have probably picked a side between me and Leaf much sooner, rather than spend so much time questioning toaster, if that were the case.
Toaster, your vote post said you had three reasons:
You idiotically confused what time period i was talking about in my accusation of Leaf posting a complex idea requiring significant research "too fast". Leaf claimed to have the solution within seven hours of day start, in his first post of the day. yet he said that he needed data that he acquired today to reach that solution. that is awfully fast, especially if you consider what time of day the day started and compare it to leaf's normal activity patterns (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?action=profile;area=statistics;u=17191). leaf had his "solution" within the first hour of his normal activity patterns. He didn't collect any data today, he had it all overnight. so then, why:
PFP I guessed he was bussing when I realized Lenglon was scum earlier today.He should have come to that conclusion overnight. what he remembers is when he claimed I was scum, not when he did his research. He is more focused on the appearance than the reality.
second, was the part I addressed, and if you don't like my statement of "the behavior that you are pointing out is behavior I have exhibited in every single game I have ever played regardless of alignment, and I invite you to find a SINGLE exception to this, ever." then too bad for you and your inability to understand the textbook definition of a null-tell. what next, are you going to say that the use of "and" is a scum-tell? I've done that in every game I've played too.
third, you complained that my answer to "why am I not dead yet" wasn't rock-solid, and you acknowledged that you were inviting WIFOM when you did so. well shockingly enough I don't know for certain, my best guess is that web didn't want to be caught blocking the known tracker at massclaim. Either way the entire line of questioning relies on WIFOM.
Leaf: no, really, if you're going to make the case that it would be easier to mark Tiruin as scum than me, then prove it. You said you'd make stuff up to make things look like that as scum, show us an example why don't you? after all, it'll be easy, won't it? you said so yourself.
Post by: Leafsnail on October 12, 2013, 06:26:06 am
My point exactly.The chest/heart, an area of the body that is not traditionally associated with desire?
...We're talking about the chest.
Problem is, would it work? Also I found what I was referring to earlier - the bulletproof thingy in this quote (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=124335.msg4250315#msg4250315)To be honest, I don't really care whether a hypothetical scum-me in this scenario could have won by lynching you or not. I don't know why you're expecting me to have a tonne of reasoning for what I'd do as any given alignment.
The bulletproof thing was, iirc, because Lenglon was trying to use the "Tiruin is bulletproof" as a reason to clear you, which is absurd.
Post by: Lenglon on October 12, 2013, 06:35:36 am
The bulletproof thing was, iirc, because Lenglon was trying to use the "Tiruin is bulletproof" as a reason to clear you, which is absurd.That is a lie, I never said such a thing.
Post by: Leafsnail on October 12, 2013, 06:47:48 am
Ok, Leaf, we appear to have totally different ideas on how a decoy works. What I've been trying to point out is that there are too many examples and yet you can't fit them all to the same rules.So you're saying that yes, Vector deliberately put all those instances of colours into the game, but that she's doing it to mislead us? Why? We know for a fact that there is a puzzle in this game. We know that Vector wants us to solve this puzzle. Why would she deliberately mislead us by hinting at an irrelevant line of inquiry?
case in point, what color is jim?.I've already said several times that I don't think every player needs to have a colour anymore - my solution works absolutely fine if you just consider me/webadict II, webadict I/Ottofar and you/Toaster. However, I'd say she probably represents all three colours, due to being an innocent girl, an experienced dreamer and a god of death all at the same time.
This is a classic deception technique, similar to looking at a set of inkblots and trying to find a pattern, what their "real meaning" is. the reality is there is no pattern, and it's just a set of inkblots. You're finding images in the clouds.Again, you are contradicting yourself. You can't seem to decide whether the pattern is a red herring/decoy planted by the mod, or an entirely coincidental pattern that means nothing. It can't be both.
I would say that your previous post provides strong evidence against this idea. Can it really be a coincidence that Vector repeatedly put red/white/black together, and also put in 3 pairs that clearly correspond to those colours?
It's one of the easiest ways to make someone work really hard to trick themselves, like saying to someone, "I'll give you a hint before I say the number two", then slowly saying a series of numbers and clapping in a random, unrelated pattern... while shifting your right foot thirty degrees to the side two numbers before you say the number two each time. obvservers will pay very close attention to the obvious signal which contains ZERO meaning and fail to notice the real, far more subtle, one.And now you're back to saying it's a decoy again? Seriously, pick one theory and stick to it. In any case, if you think Vector gave a subtler clue, then what is it? Does it relate to the colours, which we've now established feature very heavily in the flavour? I don't think you can make this argument unless you can say what the real signal is, or at least what evidence suggests that Vector was trying to mislead us with the colours.
stop listening to the random clapping and look for the real signal.
You idiotically confused what time period i was talking about in my accusation of Leaf posting a complex idea requiring significant research "too fast". Leaf claimed to have the solution within seven hours of day start, in his first post of the day. yet he said that he needed data that he acquired today to reach that solution. that is awfully fast, especially if you consider what time of day the day started and compare it to leaf's normal activity patterns (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?action=profile;area=statistics;u=17191). leaf had his "solution" within the first hour of his normal activity patterns. He didn't collect any data today, he had it all overnight. so then, why:There's absolutely no contradiction here. I came up with a solution during the night, then obtained a bit more data and did a bit more thinking in the day and confirmed it (while also refining my solution a bit - the original version assumed that all players had a colour).PFP I guessed he was bussing when I realized Lenglon was scum earlier today.He should have come to that conclusion overnight. what he remembers is when he claimed I was scum, not when he did his research. He is more focused on the appearance than the reality.
Leaf: no, really, if you're going to make the case that it would be easier to mark Tiruin as scum than me, then prove it. You said you'd make stuff up to make things look like that as scum, show us an example why don't you? after all, it'll be easy, won't it? you said so yourself.Why should I? Tiruin asked me a question, and I answered it. I'm not presenting it as evidence that I'm town or claiming I ran some kind of simulation that showed that lynching Tiruin would be easier, I am just stating what I would have done in that situation.
If I wanted to attack Tiruin I'd go down the active-lurking route. She's been asking a lot of questions of Vector, sure, but they've never really gone anywhere or given us any clues as to who is scum. Same for asking a lot of questions that require a lot of effort from other players. There's also the confusion over what her role actually does, and her refusal to claim outright (see: TM7 in which she did that and was a hostile third-party). Lastly, there's the fact that she has nothing even approaching alibi for any night, which is untrue of the rest of us (Toaster was seen by you N4; you had the webadict following N3 which I don't think anyone else would've thought of as a bus; and webadict claimed to block me N2, leaving open the question of where his block went if not me). That's more than enough for me to start a hostile argument with her and generate material. I can't tell you it would have worked for sure, but I can tell you that I'd see it as a good chance.
Post by: Leafsnail on October 12, 2013, 06:50:27 am
That is a lie, I never said such a thing.
Also, Tiruin has now demonstrated her claimed ability. if Jim didn't try to kill Tiruin last night, where else did Jim's kill go?This post strongly implied it, though. Toaster certainly picked up that impression, and you didn't correct him. You're correct that I misremembered and that I was actually responding to Toaster, though.
Post by: Lenglon on October 12, 2013, 06:57:19 am
This post strongly implied it, though. Toaster certainly picked up that impression, and you didn't correct him. You're correct that I misremembered and that I was actually responding to Toaster, though.really?
REALLY?
how thick are you anyway?
Gee, lets see, my main lines of inquiry on days three AND four were about Tiruin probably lying in her roleclaim.
then I say something on Day 5 that says the night results from night 4 show that her roleclaim was probably true after all.
how on earth does that say jack squat about her alignment?
Leaf: If you've been studying my posts like you say you have, how could you possibly make such a basic mistake?
Post by: Tiruin on October 12, 2013, 07:50:06 am
...Lenglon does have a point though. That seems to be more of pulling a quote out of context [quotemining?] than..well, a logical reason. Check the notes before said quote.
Post by: Leafsnail on October 12, 2013, 07:53:44 am
her alibi is weaker than the rest, but spending time with Horatio having a long discusion and still being asleep when you reached her, combined with the agressive reaction she had to the taste of dirt (gravedirt?) makes it seem unlikely to me that she is our final foe.
Also, Tiruin has now demonstrated her claimed ability. if Jim didn't try to kill Tiruin last night, where else did Jim's kill go?You put "also" just after a post where you explained why you thought Tiruin was town. That made it sound like an extension of that post.
In addition, if you think this misinterpretation is so scummy, why didn't you say so to Toaster, who obviously got the same impression that I did? Why didn't you even try to clarify at any point?
Good point, but you're assuming that she can't be both NK immune and scum.
Post by: Lenglon on October 12, 2013, 07:55:43 am
Post by: Tiruin on October 12, 2013, 07:56:07 am
In addition, if you think this misinterpretation is so scummy, why didn't you say so to Toaster, who obviously got the same impression that I did? Why didn't you even try to clarify at any point?Erm, wait, wasn't that also your context given that your main reason was by the puzzle?Good point, but you're assuming that she can't be both NK immune and scum.
PFRB - Posting from reading back
Post by: Leafsnail on October 12, 2013, 07:58:41 am
Because of gigantic walls of text making it difficult to keep track of everything that was being said.So the fact that there were gigantic walls of text present made it harder to read Toaster's one-line post, that was clearly responding to you?
Erm, wait, wasn't that also your context given that your main reason was by the puzzle?I don't understand what you mean.
PFRB - Posting from reading back
Post by: Leafsnail on October 12, 2013, 07:59:47 am
Post by: Lenglon on October 12, 2013, 08:00:12 am
I'm kinda distracted right now because of kitty videos, but are there any questions for me in that mess? I'll try to get a more proper analysis of the situation done sometime tomorrow and respond to it as a whole then, but actual questions I'll handle now if you bold them for me.here, since you apparently didn't notice, is the first post I make after the linked toaster quote, a full page afterwards and with half a dozen giant walls of text in between.
shockingly enough, when it wasn't brought up afterwards, I didn't worry about it.
Post by: Lenglon on October 12, 2013, 08:01:12 am
In any case, if you make an ambiguous post and then don't issue a clarification when someone misinterprets it, I think the fault lies with you.When you phrase descriptions of my statements to twist their meaning and change their intent, the fault lies fully with you.
Post by: Tiruin on October 12, 2013, 08:07:51 am
Post by: Lenglon on October 12, 2013, 08:11:55 am
I'd really love Toaster to talk more :IAs would I, his concerns and yours are the ones that actually matter to me. I'm trying to address Leaf's since Toaster keeps deferring to him, but I'd prefer it if Toaster would speak for himself. Leaf is going to continue to harp at me until day's end because he knows it's the only way his cohort can win this.
Post by: Lenglon on October 12, 2013, 09:52:03 am
here's the problem - why only those pairings? why is the Jim-set excluded? why is the Day-set excluded? if the colors had meanings, then why don't those meaning apply universally? where were the hints to limit them to those specific sets and not to the others?-snip-So you're saying that yes, Vector deliberately put all those instances of colours into the game, but that she's doing it to mislead us? Why? We know for a fact that there is a puzzle in this game. We know that Vector wants us to solve this puzzle. Why would she deliberately mislead us by hinting at an irrelevant line of inquiry?case in point, what color is jim?.I've already said several times that I don't think every player needs to have a colour anymore - my solution works absolutely fine if you just consider me/webadict II, webadict I/Ottofar and you/Toaster. However, I'd say she probably represents all three colours, due to being an innocent girl, an experienced dreamer and a god of death all at the same time.
what about Tiruin? how does she fit in the picture? what do the colors mean to her?
Your theory is incomplete, and you're having to stretch to make it even include the three sets you're trying to make it include. where's the "red" from the ottofar/web 1 set? how is NQT "black"?
why does the "white" swan have "black" hairpins?
Please, please tell me you're faking this. look, the decoy flavor does not have a consistent pattern, that is the sign that it is a decoy in the first place! yes it is inconsistent! yes, it is a decoy! THESE TWO FACTS ARE DIRECTLY RELATED. Did or did you not notice that giant red herring speel that was given to Tiruin earlier? did you notice the repeated emphasis on it being crimson? What does irrelevant information being correlated with the color red have to do with the puzzle?-snip-Again, you are contradicting yourself. You can't seem to decide whether the pattern is a red herring/decoy planted by the mod, or an entirely coincidental pattern that means nothing. It can't be both.
I would say that your previous post provides strong evidence against this idea. Can it really be a coincidence that Vector repeatedly put red/white/black together, and also put in 3 pairs that clearly correspond to those colours?-snip-And now you're back to saying it's a decoy again? Seriously, pick one theory and stick to it. In any case, if you think Vector gave a subtler clue, then what is it? Does it relate to the colours, which we've now established feature very heavily in the flavour? I don't think you can make this argument unless you can say what the real signal is, or at least what evidence suggests that Vector was trying to mislead us with the colours.
If you figured it out during the night, then under what solution was I not already marked as your target for today? Your post said that you didn't think I was scum until during the day.-snip-There's absolutely no contradiction here. I came up with a solution during the night, then obtained a bit more data and did a bit more thinking in the day and confirmed it (while also refining my solution a bit - the original version assumed that all players had a colour).
oh, and here's a fun little question for you. - why do you keep assuming in your defense regarding the sheep-kill that you and web knew that you'd be weakened from doing so? Jim became stronger in isolation, Toaster and I were unharmed by the death of NQT, and if you look at web's role PM, there were only signs that web actively wanted the musician dead, despite the fact that web was weakened by the death of sheep. So what is that all about anyway?
why do you and web supposedly have such different views of the musician (sheep) and yet toaster and I view NQT the exact same, and jim's followers both revered and protected him. why is your flavor-claim inconsitant with both set's flavor?
Post by: Leafsnail on October 12, 2013, 10:42:24 am
here, since you apparently didn't notice, is the first post I make after the linked toaster quote, a full page afterwards and with half a dozen giant walls of text in between.Again, I don't see how there being walls of text prevents you from reading a short and succinct post that came immediately after yours.
shockingly enough, when it wasn't brought up afterwards, I didn't worry about it.
Post by: Leafsnail on October 12, 2013, 10:42:56 am
When you phrase descriptions of my statements to twist their meaning and change their intent, the fault lies fully with you.You should be levelling the same accusation at Toaster, then, since he interpreted your post in exactly the same way as me.
Post by: Leafsnail on October 12, 2013, 11:05:56 am
here's the problem - why only those pairings? why is the Jim-set excluded? why is the Day-set excluded? if the colors had meanings, then why don't those meaning apply universally? where were the hints to limit them to those specific sets and not to the others?The three pairings all involve obviously coloured players, and form a neat triangle (red-white, white-black, black-red), and each player in those pairs fits the thematic associations of their colour perfectly. None of the other players have obvious colours, which implies that they are not related to the colour puzzle.
what about Tiruin? how does she fit in the picture? what do the colors mean to her?
The meanings of colours do apply universally. White consistently means purity, red consistently means passion/sex and black consistently means death/age. It's just that not every player needs to have a colour.
Tiruin's puzzle was related to Griffionday, not mafia finding, probably. It's not like the moderator promised every single player would have a colour.
Your theory is incomplete, and you're having to stretch to make it even include the three sets you're trying to make it include. where's the "red" from the ottofar/web 1 set? how is NQT "black"?There is no red in the ottofar/web pair, and there doesn't need to be one. NQT being black was a throwaway suggestion and I'm not sure about it anymore (NQT might just exist so that the players can infer the existence of a lily, in case the mafia decides to falseclaim) but black = age and NQT is old as hell.
why does the "white" swan have "black" hairpins?Probably because she used to share hairpins with her sister. I don't see how this point attacks my theory at all.
Please, please tell me you're faking this. look, the decoy flavor does not have a consistent pattern, that is the sign that it is a decoy in the first place! yes it is inconsistent! yes, it is a decoy! THESE TWO FACTS ARE DIRECTLY RELATED. Did or did you not notice that giant red herring speel that was given to Tiruin earlier? did you notice the repeated emphasis on it being crimson? What does irrelevant information being correlated with the color red have to do with the puzzle?Ok, so you're saying it's a deliberate attempt by the mod to trick us.
The red herring thing was presumably given out because Tiruin was repeatedly investigating things that were irrelevant. However, notice how sexual in nature that flavour was, what with the jamming of herring into mouths. So it's relevant to the puzzle because Vector was trying to reinforce the red = passion/sex link, while also telling Tiruin that her current line of inquiry would go nowhere.
If you figured it out during the night, then under what solution was I not already marked as your target for today? Your post said that you didn't think I was scum until during the day.I didn't know you were scum until during the day when I fully worked out how the puzzle worked. Before then I merely had a suspicion.
oh, and here's a fun little question for you. - why do you keep assuming in your defense regarding the sheep-kill that you and web knew that you'd be weakened from doing so? Jim became stronger in isolation, Toaster and I were unharmed by the death of NQT, and if you look at web's role PM, there were only signs that web actively wanted the musician dead, despite the fact that web was weakened by the death of sheep. So what is that all about anyway?I stated in the thread, before N3, that I would probably be weakened if the musician died. So I clearly knew, and if webadict was my partner I easily could tell him that. My role PM specifically mentions music and how it strengthened me so it's wholly irrelevant to those other cases.
why do you and web supposedly have such different views of the musician (sheep) and yet toaster and I view NQT the exact same, and jim's followers both revered and protected him. why is your flavor-claim inconsitant with both set's flavor?So I have a fundamentally different motivation to webadict, which means I'm more likely to be on his team...? This is a poor argument - we're thematically opposed in the same way as the swan pairing and your pairing, our views towards another person is irrelevant.
Post by: Leafsnail on October 12, 2013, 11:11:05 am
Post by: Toaster on October 12, 2013, 02:03:54 pm
Ok, Leaf, we appear to have totally different ideas on how a decoy works. What I've been trying to point out is that there are too many examples and yet you can't fit them all to the same rules. case in point, what color is jim?. This is a classic deception technique, similar to looking at a set of inkblots and trying to find a pattern, what their "real meaning" is. the reality is there is no pattern, and it's just a set of inkblots. You're finding images in the clouds. It's one of the easiest ways to make someone work really hard to trick themselves, like saying to someone, "I'll give you a hint before I say the number two", then slowly saying a series of numbers and clapping in a random, unrelated pattern... while shifting your right foot thirty degrees to the side two numbers before you say the number two each time. obvservers will pay very close attention to the obvious signal which contains ZERO meaning and fail to notice the real, far more subtle, one.
stop listening to the random clapping and look for the real signal.
This doesn't apply. An inkblot is just a blob that you show to people to get them to try to see a pattern. In this game, Vector said outright that there is a puzzle.
It's a semi-bastard mod. That means that there's a puzzle, and if Good solves it, then they will win. But there are other ways, hence the "semi-." No one has been told what the puzzle is, but it will be easier for Evil to figure it out. This is, as I said. . . an information game.
And what does evil know? That they have a BLACK swan, RED shoes, and a lily... that is WHITE. She blurred it a bit so it wasn't blatantly obvious to the scum team, but the evidence is there (especially once I claimed.)
Toaster, your vote post said you had three reasons:
You idiotically confused
Now you're just insulting me for no reason.
And I already responded to your emotional response comment, and already said that ignoring that point didn't affect the rest of the case.
I'd really love Toaster to talk more :IAs would I, his concerns and yours are the ones that actually matter to me. I'm trying to address Leaf's since Toaster keeps deferring to him, but I'd prefer it if Toaster would speak for himself. Leaf is going to continue to harp at me until day's end because he knows it's the only way his cohort can win this.
Well, considering that I agree with Leaf's interpretation of the puzzle (the puzzle we know exists), and said puzzle clearly marks you as the last scum, there's really not much more I can add to that.
oh, and here's a fun little question for you. - why do you keep assuming in your defense regarding the sheep-kill that you and web knew that you'd be weakened from doing so? Jim became stronger in isolation, Toaster and I were unharmed by the death of NQT, and if you look at web's role PM, there were only signs that web actively wanted the musician dead, despite the fact that web was weakened by the death of sheep. So what is that all about anyway?
Here's another answer- one triple had a strengthening effect, one had a weakening effect, and one had no effect.
Post by: Lenglon on October 12, 2013, 05:41:30 pm
Lenglon:"hey, there's a pattern here, now look at this blob"Ok, Leaf, we appear to have totally different ideas on how a decoy works. What I've been trying to point out is that there are too many examples and yet you can't fit them all to the same rules. case in point, what color is jim?. This is a classic deception technique, similar to looking at a set of inkblots and trying to find a pattern, what their "real meaning" is. the reality is there is no pattern, and it's just a set of inkblots. You're finding images in the clouds. It's one of the easiest ways to make someone work really hard to trick themselves, like saying to someone, "I'll give you a hint before I say the number two", then slowly saying a series of numbers and clapping in a random, unrelated pattern... while shifting your right foot thirty degrees to the side two numbers before you say the number two each time. obvservers will pay very close attention to the obvious signal which contains ZERO meaning and fail to notice the real, far more subtle, one.
stop listening to the random clapping and look for the real signal.
This doesn't apply. An inkblot is just a blob that you show to people to get them to try to see a pattern. In this game, Vector said outright that there is a puzzle.
it applies directly.
Vector also said quite outright that there is red herring here, and notice that leaf has to switch back and forth constantly between symbolism and literalism in order to explain all the extra instances of colors. basically he's saying that the colors are meaningfull except when they aren't. he also has no explanation for how we're supposed to know to exclude the jim-set and the tiruin-day pair. he's trying to excuse it by saying that the sets he doesn't want to include don't have obvious colors, yet notice that unlike the other sets, we don't have a color in our role name itself. so why are we included? lilies are not just one color. (https://www.google.com/search?q=lilies&client=firefox-a&hs=Jeo&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=S85ZUrvcJoq09gTCk4HACg&ved=0CAkQ_AUoAQ&biw=1920&bih=914&dpr=1)
Logical falicies 101 - "Hey, stuff A says that B." "What? No, A doesn't mean B." "But if B then A!"It's a semi-bastard mod. That means that there's a puzzle, and if Good solves it, then they will win. But there are other ways, hence the "semi-." No one has been told what the puzzle is, but it will be easier for Evil to figure it out. This is, as I said. . . an information game.
And what does evil know? That they have a BLACK swan, RED shoes, and a lily... that is WHITE. She blurred it a bit so it wasn't blatantly obvious to the scum team, but the evidence is there (especially once I claimed.)
the above statement requires that you assume you already know the answer to the puzzle to learn the answer to the puzzle. that is dumb.
Oi, toaster, read it before responding. that wasn't a rehash of the emotional response comment.Toaster, your vote post said you had three reasons:
You idiotically confused
Now you're just insulting me for no reason.
And I already responded to your emotional response comment, and already said that ignoring that point didn't affect the rest of the case.
so the only reason is that you like leaf's solution? and you are voting me for none of the reasons referenced in your vote post? and you aren't even willing to try to do any reasearch or look for an answer yourself. woo! best confirmed townie play ever!I'd really love Toaster to talk more :IAs would I, his concerns and yours are the ones that actually matter to me. I'm trying to address Leaf's since Toaster keeps deferring to him, but I'd prefer it if Toaster would speak for himself. Leaf is going to continue to harp at me until day's end because he knows it's the only way his cohort can win this.
Well, considering that I agree with Leaf's interpretation of the puzzle (the puzzle we know exists), and said puzzle clearly marks you as the last scum, there's really not much more I can add to that.
and yet web 2's role pm only hinted that he wanted the musician dead, mine had no hints on how I'd react to NQT's death, Jim's followers also didn't know how their deaths would affect jim, and yet Leafsnail, alone of all the members of all the trios, supposedly knew what would happen.oh, and here's a fun little question for you. - why do you keep assuming in your defense regarding the sheep-kill that you and web knew that you'd be weakened from doing so? Jim became stronger in isolation, Toaster and I were unharmed by the death of NQT, and if you look at web's role PM, there were only signs that web actively wanted the musician dead, despite the fact that web was weakened by the death of sheep. So what is that all about anyway?
Here's another answer- one triple had a strengthening effect, one had a weakening effect, and one had no effect.
Leaf was speculating at best, and to be quite blunt, Leaf has had zero interactions with the rest of us all game. He's had every opportunity to lie about his flavor anytime he wanted.
At least I'm willing to look for it seriously. you're just taking whatever is handed to you on a pretty platter with a nice crimson sheen.Again, you're ignoring one major point- if the color pairs aren't the puzzle, what is?Oh hey, Leaf already said that.
Post by: Leafsnail on October 12, 2013, 06:01:01 pm
and yet web 2's role pm only hinted that he wanted the musician dead, mine had no hints on how I'd react to NQT's death, Jim's followers also didn't know how their deaths would affect jim, and yet Leafsnail, alone of all the members of all the trios, supposedly knew what would happen.Except I demonstrated that I had a double vote before, and that I now have a -1 vote. So you're saying I made something up that just happened to be entirely true? I have no idea why you think everyone in every trio (although I've said before that I don't think the Jim trio is meant to be equivalent to the colour pairs in any way) has to have exactly the same amount of information. If Vector did that the game would have been very boring and formulaic.
Leaf was speculating at best, and to be quite blunt, Leaf has had zero interactions with the rest of us all game. He's had every opportunity to lie about his flavor anytime he wanted.
Post by: Leafsnail on October 12, 2013, 06:08:25 pm
You don't have a colour in your rolename to make it so that the puzzle isn't blatantly obvious, especially to the mafia team. Note that Vector said the puzzle was easier for the mafia team, but not that the mafia team would be able to solve it with no thought at all. The traditional colours of the plants are still obvious though. Consider the fact that "lily-white" is an adjective meaning pure-white, for instance.
Post by: Lenglon on October 12, 2013, 08:04:31 pm
So, Lenglon, if you've "looked at the puzzle seriously", what do you think it is? Because I can't see anything except you gathering together places where the game doesn't follow the most rigid and obvious pattern possible and using it as proof that there is no pattern at all.Why lookit that, leaf's being a twit yet again.
See, the reason this kind of manure infuriates me is the way that he tried to disguise his lying ass. the trick here is the base assumptions required to even ask this kind of question in the first place require that I accept where he thinks the puzzle is located in the first place. I gathered together places where the game doesn't match a pattern involving the colors. he is now rephrasing it as a pattern in general. It's not technically a lie, but it is certainly twisting the intent of my words. for me to even to respond to his filth I'd have to respond as though the only place the puzzle could possibly be is in the colors. as I have repeatedly and explicitly stated over and over, I do NOT think the puzzle is in the colors.
This is delibrate, deceptive, and the kind of tactic used by the lowest form of snake on two feet.
Leaf, burn in hell.
Post by: Leafsnail on October 12, 2013, 08:08:19 pm
Post by: Lenglon on October 12, 2013, 08:09:33 pm
So what do you think the puzzle is?And now he doesn't have a response, because he knows how easy it is to pull up additional examples of him pulling this crap, so he blatantly tries to change the topic.
Post by: Lenglon on October 12, 2013, 08:10:03 pm
permission to edit out the swear in the above statement?
Post by: Vector on October 12, 2013, 08:11:11 pm
Why lookit that, leaf's being a twat yet again.
See, the reason this kind of manure infuriates me is the way that he tried to disguise his lying ass. the trick here is the base assumptions required to even ask this kind of question in the first place require that I accept where he thinks the puzzle is located in the first place. I gathered together places where the game doesn't match a pattern involving the colors. he is now rephrasing it as a pattern in general. It's not technically a lie, but it is certainly twisting the intent of my words. for me to even to respond to his filth I'd have to respond as though the only place the puzzle could possibly be is in the colors. as I have repeatedly and explicitly stated over and over, I do NOT think the puzzle is in the colors.
This is delibrate, deceptive, and the kind of tactic used by the lowest form of snake on two feet.
Leaf, burn in hell.
Warning: No more of this vitriol from you, please. Thank you.
of all the....
permission to edit out the swear in the above statement?
Nope.
Post by: Vector on October 12, 2013, 08:12:56 pm
Post by: Leafsnail on October 12, 2013, 08:15:40 pm
So, what do you think the puzzle is?
Post by: Leafsnail on October 12, 2013, 08:18:10 pm
Post by: Leafsnail on October 12, 2013, 08:21:26 pm
Post by: Lenglon on October 12, 2013, 08:23:29 pm
this is a repeated tactic of yours, and you use it to bypass points or perspectives that do not favor you.
even now, you are refusing to address anything you don't have an answer to, and trying to force me to stop talking about it or even referring to it in a way that gives it legitimacy.
Deliberately and repeatedly doing such is completely unacceptable and it is exactly what you have done and you show no signs of stopping.
Toaster:Be your own spokesman, I can't put up with the fool you have doing your thinking for you.
Post by: Leafsnail on October 12, 2013, 08:25:43 pm
Post by: Leafsnail on October 12, 2013, 08:33:34 pm
Post by: Lenglon on October 12, 2013, 08:52:37 pm
oh yeah, consistancy.
See, the white swan's hairpins are a problem, because why are those black ones in there?
if it was a reference to the black swan, then why doesn't the black swan have white hairpins?
Jim's set still is a problem, because we don't have a good reason to remove them from our comparisons.
the puzzle being solved should not rely on specific people being lynched. it should be able to be solved from ANY combination of seven people still being alive. otherwise the puzzle could remain unsolvable at LYLO. yet if we assume that me, leaf, web 2, ottofar, web 1, toaster, and jim are all alive, then we wouldn't have the "solution" available for solving, due to lack of flips. assuming that Leaf's colors system is correct.
additionally, there's a key element missing, because we still haven't figured out why certain magics are occuring here.
Why were Toaster and I turned into humans?
Why was web able to remove her shoes?
Why is Leaf unable to remove her shoes?
Why weren't we able to identify Web1 until she was bitten?
What's up with jim?
How did ZU's protect work?
Tiruin's everything?
how could the prince not recognize his own younger brother?
It doesn't make sense to me that we'd have to totally abandon all sense of immersion in the world Vector created to solve the puzzle. It should be solvable by the characters we're attempting to roleplay, not just by the meta-characters doing the roleplaying. I seriously doubt that the Prince himself rigged his invitations to create a pattern based on colors, and one that identifies specific people as threats and others as safe. I strongly think that we're missing something regarding the origins of the magics causing all this, and I strongly doubt it was all about Jim since Jim's dead and I'm not a flower again. especially so since Jim was apparently a goddess of death and yet all these changes were changes to life, something that had been occurring since before the game began yet in Jim's role PM it was mentioned that her connection to life was tenuous while she still had her attendants.
So where's the magician?
Post by: Vector on October 12, 2013, 08:55:30 pm
...I won't leave until something's done right. The other girls should know what Horatio said, but at best at least one of them would get something good out of it. I think?
Try to find the Prince and..well, tell him of recent events as well as the corpse in his room.
...Try to be useful on his side.
You knock on the undercroft door.
"Enter," says Sigfred. "It's open."
The undercroft is, rather than being packed with provisions, a low room strewn with papers and records. Sigfred sits at the table, poring over ledgers and letters. He still wears his brigandine and sword belt, but the gauntlets--and a heavy signet ring--sit piled beside him. You clamber onto the nearby chair. For a long time, there is no sound save the scratching of his quill, and your mutual guilty breathing.
As much as you would like to be useful to him, you cannot say a word. You would like to convince yourself that all the things you have seen and heard are shadows--to be tossed aside like so much washwater--but some gestures cannot be taken back, and the raw purity of the Prince's innocence seems to be gone forever. Or is it merely that you know too much, and can no longer see it glowing beneath his brigandine?
"I remember," says the Prince, "A time long-ago gone by."
He looks at you for a moment. You look back, unmoving, and are unsure what you should do when he doesn't turn away after searching your face far too long. Are you to leave? To say something? To reach out for him?
"I have a story I would tell," he says to you. "Listen to me."
"I'll listen," you say.
He finally returns to his papers, shuffles through them but doesn't seem to read anything. You resolve to keep your silence. There is nothing for you to say, anyhow.
"When my brothers and I were boys," he begins, "we would often sneak away from the guards and play in the fields. In the spring and summer, when the sun was high and the hay freshly growing. We walked to the surrounding town, where they grew accustomed to seeing us. And one day, when I had passed a mere six summers, we saw a woman, hooded, veiled, and barefoot. All her body but feet and hands was shrouded by sheets of draped gray silk. She stood tall in the crowd, who did not seem to observe her; standing still for a long time, until we brushed past her inadvertently.
"We thought little of it. We were young. She turned her head, slowly, to my elder brother--looked at him a moment--turned and walked away. We returned to our games.
"It was a year before we saw her again. Horatio was with us, disobedient for once, loyal as always. Our mother the Queen had chastised us all terribly for laziness in our lessons, and Horatio as well. By then, his parents had already succumbed to plague, and so the King and Queen had taken upon themselves the thankless task of educating and rearing their most faithful servants' only offspring.
"We were in among the hay teasing each other, comparing the stripes on our knuckles with great uproar and complaint, when she appeared.
"'Children,' she said with a voice we felt in the ground, 'does your Mother use you ill?'
"We said nothing for a moment, discomfited. Of course we felt ill-used. She had little time for us and the time left was occupied with rebuking us for our lack of skill in sums. The nursemaids had other concerns than us.
"'Poor darlings,' she said, and--stroked the hair of we three brothers with cold hands, kissing and clucking over our wounded fists, and picking bits of straw from our clothes.
"'Please, milady, might we see your face?' Horatio asked her, but she continued to ignore him.
"We saw her more through the years to come. At first she only tended to our bruises, but in time she became our confidante. We told her of our Uncle Claudius' rumored evil and the fear of war with Norway as readily as we disclosed our childish hurts and budding affections, thinking nothing of it.
"Horatio she shunned. Soon enough he would not play with us any longer. His failures in education and arms had him working as a serving boy in my father's hall, as he was still too small to spend the whole of the day toiling in the fields. He lived at my mother's knee, eagerly swallowing each scrap of favor she offered him--and would not have left her side gladly, even if we had not been occupied in ignoring him.
"And for us, we grew to call the lady in gray 'Mother' as well. There was nothing unusual about it. We called the goodwives 'aunty' and the old women 'grandmother.' But Horatio seemed to feel this was a special betrayal, so we didn't tell our parents of it.
"When we saw her for the last time I was twelve years of age; Hamlet fourteen; and Charmerende, the youngest of us, only nine. Horatio was passing his fifteenth summer scything hay, which suited us well. He had withdrawn from our company entirely and seemed to know some dark secret he was resolved to keep to himself, as is the way of boys of his age. If we observed in turn that he had begun to often appear at supper limping, or with a bruised face, we had learned to stop asking after him--for he never complained, and would only say that he had fallen down when pressed.
"We had to find other sources of diversion.
"So it was that we shirked yet another lesson and left for the fields. Secretly we knew we were too old to be japing there--that we could be hurt by the harvesters if we were not careful--but we left all the same, since Charmerende had begged us and so loved to see the wild birds.
"We settled not too far from where Horatio was hard at work, resolving to throw clods of earth at him and make him pay attention to us for once--when the lady in gray appeared again, a basket over her arm.
"'Boys,' she said, 'I have brought you a gift.'
"We had not seen her in some months, and were eager for her attentions. She had never brought us anything before.
"From her basket she extracted three fresh red apples, cold, red, and heavy, from which she offered one to each of us. They were too large for me to easily grasp in one hand. 'Eat,' she said.
"Charmerende took a bite and spat it out, making a face. Not so far away behind her I noticed, with some irritation, Horatio looking up from tying sheaves and squinting at us.
"'Why won't you eat, Sigfred?' Mother asked. She rested a hand on Hamlet's shoulder as he licked juice from his palms, crunched at the apple core. I remember his eagerness. I remember his teeth. 'Eat, darling. I brought it just for you.'
"'I'm sorry, Mother,' I said. 'I'm not hungry at the moment.'
"'You should come home with me today,' she said. I imagined her smiling behind the veil. 'You can eat as much as you want there, when you're hungrier.'
"'This is too bitter,' said Charmerende. He had tasted every bite and found it wanting. 'Don't you have any sweeter?'"
"'Ah yes, of course,' Mother said, reaching for my hand. Behind her I saw Horatio trudging towards us, a sheaf weighing his shoulders. 'Come with me.'
"'What's this?' called Horatio, the perpetually underfoot. 'If it isn't you again, still hanging about the princes!'
"'Go away, Horatio,' said Charmerende, giving voice to all our feelings. 'You aren't wanted.'
"He came into our little circle, observing Hamlet sunk into Mother's side, Charmerende surrounded by spat-out bits of fruit, me frozen.
"'Who are you?' asked Horatio. His voice cracked. Mother ignored him. 'Hamlet, you're almost as old as I am and you mustn't behave like this anymore. Before long you'll be king. You have to concentrate on your studies now. The crown prince can't just run off whenever he likes!'
"When none of us moved or paid him any mind he dropped his burden and reached for Hamlet. Mother cracked Horatio across the face and he stumbled back, blood pouring out his nose, a hand to his cheek--which already looked odd, and began to swell immediately.
"He threw me over his shoulder, hoisted Charmerende under his arm, and ran as fast and as far as he could, all the way back to the road. There he dropped us, panting, tears streaming down his gory face despite himself, and in the end it was the two of us who fetched the field hands and rode back to the castle with him, in a bailiff's cart.
"Hamlet returned the next day, indifferent and unaffectionate but with nothing to say about his time apart. Mother and Father argued a great deal. She demanded a second coronation ceremony. He would have nothing of it, refused vehemently, and every time they were in the room together she would embrace one of us and look at him reproachfully.
"'Not for the sake of your sons?'
"Soon Charmerende and I were sent away to study in Germany. Our father was assassinated, our mother remarried, and our uncle crowned while we still lived in lands distant, living contented, cosseted, careless lives for the better part of a decade. Safe. We mourned them and missed them, occasionally spoke of them, but did not mention our time in the fields together. It seemed forbidden. Charmerende was too busy chasing skirts. I was too busy reading stories. Though Hamlet came for a time to study in Wittenberg, we never saw him; and soon enough, he was gone again.
"We returned to Denmark only after the whole of Uncle Claudius' court had slaughtered each other and half the country gone to Fortinbras. Horatio had lost all hint of gaiety and warmth, and Hamlet was sour. He, too, managed to refuse his official coronation for a time, citing mourning and lack of ability; when the date was at long last set, he disappeared into the snow, still unknown to us, and that was all I saw of him."
The Prince falls silent.
"Did that really happen?" you ask him.
"No, of course not," he says, staring at his papers. "It was just a dream I had once, that's all; a poisonous mix of memory and fairytale better not remembered."
Post by: Leafsnail on October 12, 2013, 09:27:50 pm
See, the white swan's hairpins are a problem, because why are those black ones in there?The black swan does have white hairpins.
if it was a reference to the black swan, then why doesn't the black swan have white hairpins?
Jim's set still is a problem, because we don't have a good reason to remove them from our comparisons.We aren't "removing" them so much as just not adding in the first place them because they clearly do not form part of the colour triangle, or have any colour at all.
the puzzle being solved should not rely on specific people being lynched. it should be able to be solved from ANY combination of seven people still being alive. otherwise the puzzle could remain unsolvable at LYLO. yet if we assume that me, leaf, web 2, ottofar, web 1, toaster, and jim are all alive, then we wouldn't have the "solution" available for solving, due to lack of flips. assuming that Leaf's colors system is correct.The scenario you've described is not lylo. It's "town is outnumbered and has to rely on luck in order to have any chance of winning".
Leaving that aside, I think you're incorrect. Let's assume that all three mafia members have fabricated their claims. Let's say that at this point someone realizes the significance of the colours puzzle. They notice that three of the current claims correspond perfectly to white, red and black. Then, they read the White Swan's claim and hear about the Black Swan - it's clear that the Black Swan must be evil, due to her nature in Swan Lake. This gets the person thinking - Toaster's claim is red. And NQT's roleflip implies that there are two flowers present - a lily, generally white, and a rose, generally red. So perhaps there's also a lily role unclaimed. They complete the pattern by supposing that the black roleclaim has a red counterpart (this one would be easier due to the fact that webadict II would be dancing at people). Then, starting from the assumption that the Black Swan is mafia, they create their black-red-white team: Black Swan, white lily, Red Shoes.
Sure, it's difficult, but if the town gets into that bad a situation then it should be difficult for them to instantly turn it around. The puzzle becomes much easier if you lynch mafia members, which makes sense as good scumhunting should be rewarded.
additionally, there's a key element missing, because we still haven't figured out why certain magics are occuring here.The hell? Why would a puzzle to find who is scum address any of these things? These things are clearly meant to just be aspects of the flavour rather than mysteries to be solved (except maybe the flower girls thing, but I still believe that was just Jim. Jim probably only became a god of death after she died, since her old powers didn't kill anyone). I will not accept this point unless you can give me a theory that explains any of these.
Why were Toaster and I turned into humans?
Why was web able to remove her shoes?
Why is Leaf unable to remove her shoes?
Why weren't we able to identify Web1 until she was bitten?
What's up with jim?
How did ZU's protect work?
Tiruin's everything?
how could the prince not recognize his own younger brother?
Also I explained why these shoes were cursed to my feet so way to pay attention.
It doesn't make sense to me that we'd have to totally abandon all sense of immersion in the world Vector created to solve the puzzle. It should be solvable by the characters we're attempting to roleplay, not just by the meta-characters doing the roleplaying. I seriously doubt that the Prince himself rigged his invitations to create a pattern based on colors, and one that identifies specific people as threats and others as safe. I strongly think that we're missing something regarding the origins of the magics causing all this, and I strongly doubt it was all about Jim since Jim's dead and I'm not a flower again. especially so since Jim was apparently a goddess of death and yet all these changes were changes to life, something that had been occurring since before the game began yet in Jim's role PM it was mentioned that her connection to life was tenuous while she still had her attendants.So how exactly does this proposed "where's the magician" puzzle work? What are the hints, and how does it point to people as scum?
So where's the magician?
I think the explanation for the puzzle in-universe is related to Jim again, by the way. As a Goddess of Order, she subconsciously wanted to make sure the threats to the Prince formed a coherent pattern.
Post by: Tiruin on October 12, 2013, 10:58:12 pm
Still rereading and matching.
I think she means Why doesn't the black swan have black hairpins.See, the white swan's hairpins are a problem, because why are those black ones in there?The black swan does have white hairpins.
if it was a reference to the black swan, then why doesn't the black swan have white hairpins?
...I'm not in that list? D: You guys don't know my role. :Ithe puzzle being solved should not rely on specific people being lynched. it should be able to be solved from ANY combination of seven people still being alive. otherwise the puzzle could remain unsolvable at LYLO. yet if we assume that me, leaf, web 2, ottofar, web 1, toaster, and jim are all alive, then we wouldn't have the "solution" available for solving, due to lack of flips. assuming that Leaf's colors system is correct.The scenario you've described is not lylo. It's "town is outnumbered and has to rely on luck in order to have any chance of winning".
Leaving that aside, I think you're incorrect. Let's assume that all three mafia members have fabricated their claims. Let's say that at this point someone realizes the significance of the colours puzzle. They notice that three of the current claims correspond perfectly to white, red and black. Then, they read the White Swan's claim and hear about the Black Swan - it's clear that the Black Swan must be evil, due to her nature in Swan Lake. This gets the person thinking - Toaster's claim is red. And NQT's roleflip implies that there are two flowers present - a lily, generally white, and a rose, generally red. So perhaps there's also a lily role unclaimed.They complete the pattern by supposing that the black roleclaim has a red counterpart (this one would be easier due to the fact that webadict II would be dancing at people). Then, starting from the assumption that the Black Swan is mafia, they create their black-red-white team: Black Swan, white lily, Red Shoes.
Sure, it's difficult, but if the town gets into that bad a situation then it should be difficult for them to instantly turn it around. The puzzle becomes much easier if you lynch mafia members, which makes sense as good scumhunting should be rewarded.
Anyway: The situation is more like 3 Town 3 Scum and 1 SK...I really think its LYLO. Only that Town can't win as long as Jim is still there (the Town wincon is screwy though. The Prince is not under any attack. BUT HIS HONOR {reputation, kingdom, all those other stuff...} IS!) which goes to scum, too.
Let's list it up:
Quote
Leafsnail...In retrospect, Webadict is playing two roles here, so the situation is blatantly funny out of context, really.Tiruin, who shall not be named- Yeah.
Lenglon
Toaster
Webadict [We know this person is TOWN]Griffionday the Hopeful Prince
Ottofar [We know this person is SCUM]Solifuge, AKA Lovelacenotquitethere the Gardener-SageRangerCado => zombieurist, AKA HypatiaGriffinpup => TheWetSheep the Balalaika Player
Okami no Rei => Webadict [We know this person is SCUM]
Jim Groovestar [We know this person is AN SK]
Claimcons:
Town: All threats to the prince are eliminated. [Go NQT, You really missed this point back in the day and said 'kill' instead.]
Scum: Everyone outside the cohort is dead.
SK: Kill kill kill ahhahahahahaha kill everyone!
>
You may continue speaking with the dead.
You may kill one person each night by dreaming with them. As such this kill cannot be blocked.
Anyway:
How will town even know the puzzle now, huh? I think I'm getting Lenglon's point here wherein the process is mostly the first step: How will they get it?
So let's say that all three have fabricated their claims. How? In what manner? In answering this, you'd be conclusing the second bolded sentence, wherein I insert the same: "How."
The realization was subjective in that currently, Leafsnail probably got it after watching:
a. Anime
b. Checkin' the red shoes of Webadict.
In supposing the roles are fakeclaimed -- add in the query, "Why would they fakeclaim." But for all other reasons, let's say they claimed the truth and lie instead on their actions.
The part I've strikethrough'd is where it diverges. How will you match those colors when the colors are all vague, now? The statement of finding the puzzle only relies, now, on scumhunting.
tl;dr: You can't solve the puzzle by itself.
Leafsnail: Why is being passive a scumtell? What context makes it not a scumtell?
I think the explanation for the puzzle in-universe is related to Jim again, by the way. As a Goddess of Order, she subconsciously wanted to make sure the threats to the Prince formed a coherent pattern.Jim was never a Goddess of Order. She fakeclaimed that into a Goddess of DEATH.
Post by: Tiruin on October 13, 2013, 03:51:19 am
Post by: Leafsnail on October 13, 2013, 07:32:34 am
I think she means Why doesn't the black swan have black hairpins.They may each have hairpins that remind them of their mortal enemy (or possibly they swapped them at some point). The white swan only has two white hairpins - it's possible the black swan returned some to her before she died.
The realization was subjective in that currently, Leafsnail probably got it after watching:That's true (well not entirely, it was a manga). But the fact that I needed a roleflip to finally kick my brain into gear doesn't mean that it'd be impossible for someone else to arrive at the solution without one. As I said before, the "white dresses stained red with blood" in one of the early flavour posts could have given me the same clue if I were more on the ball.
a. Anime
b. Checkin' the red shoes of Webadict.
In supposing the roles are fakeclaimed -- add in the query, "Why would they fakeclaim." But for all other reasons, let's say they claimed the truth and lie instead on their actions.Then it would be easy to solve the puzzle. You could identify the three colour pairs, realize that the Black Swan has doomed herself by claiming a role that's obviously scum, and work out who the other mafia members are by having realized that
a) One person in each colour pair is scum
b) The mafia team is made up of one person of each colour
The puzzle only becomes hard if the mafia team fakeclaims. Then again, fakeclaiming in this game would be staggeringly difficult, considering how much flavour Vector put into all the roles.
...I'm not in that list? D: You guys don't know my role. :IIt's not lylo, though. Lylo implies "You have to lynch scum in order to win". In this situation, lynching scum can make you lose, and you can lose even if you lynch scum every time. Or you could win on a no lynch. It just isn't lylo in any sense of the word.
Anyway: The situation is more like 3 Town 3 Scum and 1 SK...I really think its LYLO. Only that Town can't win as long as Jim is still there (the Town wincon is screwy though. The Prince is not under any attack. BUT HIS HONOR {reputation, kingdom, all those other stuff...} IS!) which goes to scum, too.
The part I've strikethrough'd is where it diverges. How will you match those colors when the colors are all vague, now? The statement of finding the puzzle only relies, now, on scumhunting.The black/white swan thing is totally unambiguous. Then there are red and white shoes, which are also fairly easy to see the link between. Then you look at the flowers: traditionally white and red. There, you have your colour triangle - no roleflips needed. Now lynch the Black Swan and you're good to go.
tl;dr: You can't solve the puzzle by itself.
Leafsnail: Why is being passive a scumtell? What context makes it not a scumtell?Townies want to make mafia members get lynched. Mafia members don't care and just want to live until the next day. Being passive forwards the mafia win condition and harms the town win condition.
It's not a scumtell if the player in question is lazy or bad.
I think the explanation for the puzzle in-universe is related to Jim again, by the way. As a Goddess of Order, she subconsciously wanted to make sure the threats to the Prince formed a coherent pattern.Jim was never a Goddess of Order. She fakeclaimed that into a Goddess of DEATH.
[/quote]
Post by: Tiruin on October 13, 2013, 09:54:31 am
[/quote]It took quite a long time before anyone thought of any color and that maybe perhaps the puzzle would've associated with color contrasts and combinations, and then in said context, would be pointing at the essence of said context. All of which I was watchiing before, sans the essence. So there's my two cents on the matter.The realization was subjective in that currently, Leafsnail probably got it after watching:That's true (well not entirely, it was a manga). But the fact that I needed a roleflip to finally kick my brain into gear doesn't mean that it'd be impossible for someone else to arrive at the solution without one.[...]
a. Anime
b. Checkin' the red shoes of Webadict.
That and I don't watch Tv too much because books and either writing or drawing or gaming. >_<
Anyway.
Quote
The puzzle only becomes hard if the mafia team fakeclaims. Then again, fakeclaiming in this game would be staggeringly difficult, considering how much flavour Vector put into all the roles.In Lenglon's context:
The Black Swan could claim something alluding to a fairytale which included swans that was benevolent.
The Red Shoes could claim whatever (say: White shoes, given how original-origin it was)
And the lily could claim a..well, many variants. Water lilies, land-based lilies..she could claim violet and/or red given the idea and we'll all be lost.
...I'm unsure if Iron can resemble any other color than metallic. Because if colors were such, why isn't your shoes and/or personal effects include oil or whatever is used to prevent rust?
Quote
The black/white swan thing is totally unambiguous. Then there are red and white shoes, which are also fairly easy to see the link between. Then you look at the flowers: traditionally white and red. There, you have your colour triangle - no roleflips needed. Now lynch the Black Swan and you're good to go....Web did say 'originally white' then became red hinting that he had no idea on the puzzle at hand.
...Err, red and white shoes? I thought yours was black.
Quote
Townies want to make mafia members get lynched. Mafia members don't care and just want to live until the next day. Being passive forwards the mafia win condition and harms the town win condition.I really think its in what a person says instead of posting a heck lot of trivial posts or seemingly important but mostly fluff posts.
It's not a scumtell if the player in question is lazy or bad.
...Tiruin looks at ZU.
I mean, some people excel in making and using...very short posts.
Quote
They may each have hairpins that remind them of their mortal enemy (or possibly they swapped them at some point). The white swan only has two white hairpins - it's possible the black swan returned some to her before she died.Interesting that you know. . .
[/quote]Broken sentence detected. Query on what was to be said?I think the explanation for the puzzle in-universe is related to Jim again, by the way. As a Goddess of Order, she subconsciously wanted to make sure the threats to the Prince formed a coherent pattern.Jim was never a Goddess of Order. She fakeclaimed that into a Goddess of DEATH.
Post by: Tiruin on October 13, 2013, 09:58:24 am
Post by: Leafsnail on October 13, 2013, 12:51:43 pm
The Black Swan could claim something alluding to a fairytale which included swans that was benevolent.But the Black Swan is mentioned in the role PM of a town player, the White Swan. So they'd be called out for faking their claim instantly.
The Red Shoes could claim whatever (say: White shoes, given how original-origin it was)Sure, but once the other two pairs had been identified that wouldn't help her much.
And the lily could claim a..well, many variants. Water lilies, land-based lilies..she could claim violet and/or red given the idea and we'll all be lost.Except no, they couldn't. That's because of NQT's role PM, that mentions lilies and roses. Claiming any variant on lily would make it obvious that they're lying. Also lilies are traditionally white so she couldn't fake the colour.
...I'm unsure if Iron can resemble any other color than metallic. Because if colors were such, why isn't your shoes and/or personal effects include oil or whatever is used to prevent rust?Cast iron is generally black (think frying pans), and I don't think it rusts away either.
...Web did say 'originally white' then became red hinting that he had no idea on the puzzle at hand.I meant black and red. And the mafia may or may not have worked out the puzzle - if they did, they certainly wouldn't want to tell the town about it.
...Err, red and white shoes? I thought yours was black.
I really think its in what a person says instead of posting a heck lot of trivial posts or seemingly important but mostly fluff posts.ZU was just being lazy though.
...Tiruin looks at ZU.
I mean, some people excel in making and using...very short posts.
Interesting that you know. . .I don't "know", I came up with a theory. I'm trying to come up with answers, unlike Lenglon who's just throwing any oddity at me and declaring that the problem is insoluble.
Broken sentence detected. Query on what was to be said?I meant to say she turned into a goddess of death after her followers died. Because her previous powers had nothing to do with death.
Post by: Toaster on October 13, 2013, 05:53:37 pm
Toaster:Be your own spokesman, I can't put up with the fool you have doing your thinking for you.
The key point is that I agree with Leaf's interpretation of the puzzle, and that said interpretation of the puzzle points directly at you being scum. Now your responses to Leaf consist mainly of "LA LA LA I CAN'T HEAR YOU." That only leads me to one question:
If Leaf's puzzle proposal is incorrect, what is the puzzle here?
You're trying to control the conversation and forcibly frame it in a manner that favors you.
This is practically a soft scum claim. If you're saying that trying to figure out the puzzle favors Leaf, then by what Vector said:
This game has been intentionally balanced so that elegance mildly favors Good (unconventional information present), and brute force mildly favors Evil (conventional information withheld). Both courses are winnable for both sides. Brute force will give Good some nasty surprises, and elegance will give Good some pleasant ones. That's inverted for Evil, though everyone can benefit some from both methods.
...you must be Evil.
Getting interrupted here- haven't read this post (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4683087#msg4683087) or beyond yet. May be more to add to priors as well.
Post by: Lenglon on October 13, 2013, 05:59:03 pm
Post by: Lenglon on October 13, 2013, 06:07:15 pm
seriously toaster, SPEAK FOR YOURSELF. if you agree with leaf, then say it yourself. I will not have anything to do with someone who pulls that kind of trick on a regular basis.
Post by: Tiruin on October 13, 2013, 07:11:25 pm
Re-read nearly done seeing as I've but one more exam to finish.
Lenglon's notes do confer to a serious point.
Quote
The puzzle being solved should not rely on specific people being lynched.However at the latest of notes do I need to see her viewpoint on, specifically what Leafsnail has mentioned regarding the puzzle.
But I've to fully agree with her point on Toaster. He's been...quite flippant with mostly everything in-game.
This note is crucial. The affects were not directly stated, however I do plainly recall that ZU said 'Bad things will happen' if both of them die, in regard to the Goddess.and yet web 2's role pm only hinted that he wanted the musician dead, mine had no hints on how I'd react to NQT's death, Jim's followers also didn't know how their deaths would affect jim, and yet Leafsnail, alone of all the members of all the trios, supposedly knew what would happen.oh, and here's a fun little question for you. - why do you keep assuming in your defense regarding the sheep-kill that you and web knew that you'd be weakened from doing so? Jim became stronger in isolation, Toaster and I were unharmed by the death of NQT, and if you look at web's role PM, there were only signs that web actively wanted the musician dead, despite the fact that web was weakened by the death of sheep. So what is that all about anyway?
Here's another answer- one triple had a strengthening effect, one had a weakening effect, and one had no effect.
Leaf was speculating at best, and to be quite blunt, Leaf has had zero interactions with the rest of us all game. He's had every opportunity to lie about his flavor anytime he wanted.
In which I call out Toaster//Leafsnail, specifically the former for...a very bad vote. Toaster: Did you not care to explain your gut read back then despite the everything ZU said? How can one's intuition (or in cruder terms, the gut >_<) conclude a lie from his words back in the day preceding his lynch?
Leafsnail had an understandable reason (can't search for it now, it's back there-linkable, searchengine does not agree with my terms) being as he kept on repeating the note on passivity.
Leafsnail: Difference between ZU's passivity and Lenglon's?
Vector: You have wine as an avatar..I liked the last one. Why'd you change it? Timecount please.
Post by: Vector on October 13, 2013, 07:16:07 pm
Day end is scheduled for tomorrow, Monday, at 7:00 PM (-8GMT). No further extensions on today are available.
Post by: Lenglon on October 13, 2013, 07:21:49 pm
However at the latest of notes do I need to see her viewpoint on, specifically what Leafsnail has mentioned regarding the puzzle.Um, Leaf has said a lot regarding what he thinks the puzzle is, what part of that do you want me to comment on?
Post by: Leafsnail on October 13, 2013, 07:37:09 pm
But I've to fully agree with her point on Toaster. He's been...quite flippant with mostly everything in-game.But he's town. Also I'd seriously recommend re-voting. Otherwise Lenglon would be able to tie the vote and bring us into a wonky lylo that she could win through deadline shenanigans.
In which I call out Toaster//Leafsnail, specifically the former for...a very bad vote. Toaster: Did you not care to explain your gut read back then despite the everything ZU said? How can one's intuition (or in cruder terms, the gut >_<) conclude a lie from his words back in the day preceding his lynch?Toaster is definitely not the person who killed Jim. So why does it matter why he made his vote on day two? There's no point in grilling a confirmed townie - you can criticize his tactics after the game is finished.
Leafsnail: Difference between ZU's passivity and Lenglon's?I guess it would be that Lenglon was there, and actually making posts, and spending quite a lot of time on her posts, but not attempting to find scum in any way. At the time I thought the same of ZU, but reading back I guess his posts do make sense from someone who is just heavily demotivated (they wouldn't have required much time to make, while Lenglon's would have)
Post by: Tiruin on October 13, 2013, 08:09:12 pm
...Yes, but there are notes wherein you can debunk it. Erm, little time now--posting to say that there's an incomplete feeling when reading your interpretation.However at the latest of notes do I need to see her viewpoint on, specifically what Leafsnail has mentioned regarding the puzzle.Um, Leaf has said a lot regarding what he thinks the puzzle is, what part of that do you want me to comment on?
Toaster: If people haven't proven you town in the situation beforehand, then you would've, and still should've been my prime suspect..mostly due to playstyle.
Lenglon:Why propose her to give her own response to the puzzle? Would a more significant explanation persuade you? Do you sincerely agree in full to Leaf's without any implications?Toaster:Be your own spokesman, I can't put up with the fool you have doing your thinking for you.
The key point is that I agree with Leaf's interpretation of the puzzle, and that said interpretation of the puzzle points directly at you being scum. Now your responses to Leaf consist mainly of "LA LA LA I CAN'T HEAR YOU." That only leads me to one question:
If Leaf's puzzle proposal is incorrect, what is the puzzle here?
Grilling here = thoroughness. Yes it seems repetitive, but I'd at least want to make the best of every post space I have here (and if the scum is Lenglon--she's very well dead given the evidence presented, as well as the current time being a learning lesson :P If its LS then thrice darnit. However my read has stabilized on null ever since I'm doing my re-read.)But I've to fully agree with her point on Toaster. He's been...quite flippant with mostly everything in-game.But he's town. Also I'd seriously recommend re-voting. Otherwise Lenglon would be able to tie the vote and bring us into a wonky lylo that she could win through deadline shenanigans.In which I call out Toaster//Leafsnail, specifically the former for...a very bad vote. Toaster: Did you not care to explain your gut read back then despite the everything ZU said? How can one's intuition (or in cruder terms, the gut >_<) conclude a lie from his words back in the day preceding his lynch?Toaster is definitely not the person who killed Jim. So why does it matter why he made his vote on day two? There's no point in grilling a confirmed townie - you can criticize his tactics after the game is finished.Leafsnail: Difference between ZU's passivity and Lenglon's?I guess it would be that Lenglon was there, and actually making posts, and spending quite a lot of time on her posts, but not attempting to find scum in any way. At the time I thought the same of ZU, but reading back I guess his posts do make sense from someone who is just heavily demotivated (they wouldn't have required much time to make, while Lenglon's would have)
{Also day ends on my Tuesday so I've got time.
...But yeah. Current life events and emotions may stop me from posting. Lenglon.}
Part of the unvoting is that, I'm unconsciously being affected by meta on a point. Working back on that one [rebel/spy] mafia wherein Lenglon was town, and in my personal opinion the only cause for me not believing her was due to her predecessor's actions...well, the blow hit me despite intangible alarms telling me otherwise on her scumminess. In this situation, it is different, but I can't just throw the game into a mass shorten without being fully sure.
...Also why aren't we no lynching again? I thought it out and (well, given LS' case and the difference between stating the mechanic of a shorten/extend and a red vote) that the best possible way to eliminate suspects is to either kill me [ahahaha] or Toaster in the situation if Lenglon is scum-or that she doesn't kill. She must track Leafsnail in that situation.
I changed it because I felt like changing it.No offense intended! I also like the wine (just that I can't relate to it because of its nature).
Post by: Leafsnail on October 13, 2013, 08:16:27 pm
Post by: Leafsnail on October 13, 2013, 08:20:13 pm
Post by: Vector on October 13, 2013, 08:43:35 pm
Second of all, I don't choose my avatars for relatability. I pick them based on what makes me happy. In this case, what made me happy was the Hokusai wave in the wine.
Post by: Toaster on October 13, 2013, 09:48:40 pm
Toaster: no, I'm saying that he's twisting my words, quotemining, and trying to repeatedly change the context of the discussion. You also appear to have ignored This post (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4681863#msg4681863) and This one (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4681229#msg4681229), completely.
Getting interrupted here- haven't read this post (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4683087#msg4683087) or beyond yet. May be more to add to priors as well.
But he's not changing the context of the discussion- he's bringing up a very valid point. You say his interpretation of the puzzle is wrong, but you still have not provided an alternative. Why?
On the two posts you mention: This one (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4681863#msg4681863) appears to be a list of minor quibbles you're throwing at his case to undermine it. In order:
The Black Swan's role power is dependent on their similarity. Why is it odd that they may have hairpins of each other's color?
I think there's a pretty clear lack of colors in the Jim trio- their connection is more of protection. In retrospect, it almost seems like they were there to protect US from JIM, instead of the other way around.
The odds of such a seven-way survival is extremely slim. Plus, we would have a clue from either claims (which should be out there at that point, being LYLO) or NQT's flip.
Most of the rest I'd call irrelevant- if it's not here, it's irrelevant.
Jim took the Sleeping God role to a literal extreme.
I'm calling out ZU's protect here because it's extra irrelevant. Who cares how it works?
What about Tiruin's everything? She can't tell us anything apparently, so speculation can only get us so far.
That next-to-last large paragraph really hits at the crux of the problem with you right now- you're attacking Leaf's puzzle any way you can without providing any alternative whatsoever.
As for the other...
Well, considering that I agree with Leaf's interpretation of the puzzle (the puzzle we know exists), and said puzzle clearly marks you as the last scum, there's really not much more I can add to that.so the only reason is that you like leaf's solution? and you are voting me for none of the reasons referenced in your vote post? and you aren't even willing to try to do any reasearch or look for an answer yourself. woo! best confirmed townie play ever!
You're strawmanning me again. The reasons I stated support the "Lenglon is scum" idea. This is twice you've tried to pick out one point and make it the entirety of my case- another case of scum behavior on your part.
And I've read back on the three of you trying to look for signs of scum. What leads and ideas I've had that went nowhere I didn't post because, well, they went nowhere. Leaf's solution (plus what I did post) wraps it up nice and neat for me.
seriously toaster, SPEAK FOR YOURSELF. if you agree with leaf, then say it yourself. I will not have anything to do with someone who pulls that kind of trick on a regular basis.
What does this even mean? I have said multiple times that I agree with Leaf. If you want another reason coming from me, you're turning sharply more abrasive as you get pushed into the corner.
As an aside, the Black Swan would have to fakeclaim since the scum team is- and flips as- the Black Swan's Cohort. If Ottofar had true claimed that rolename, then he'd be instalynched as soon as any other mafioso died.
In any case, Lenglon, I don't want to hear anything more from you that isn't your version of the puzzle or a clear and concise reason why you cannot provide one. Your stubborn avoidance of this point is further condemning you.
Tiruin:
But I've to fully agree with her point on Toaster. He's been...quite flippant with mostly everything in-game.
Bleh. I haven't been strongly invested in playing this game- I might need a Mafia break, to be honest. It's a good read but I've had trouble reading people in it since day one (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4501230#msg4501230).
In which I call out Toaster//Leafsnail, specifically the former for...a very bad vote. Toaster: Did you not care to explain your gut read back then despite the everything ZU said? How can one's intuition (or in cruder terms, the gut >_<) conclude a lie from his words back in the day preceding his lynch?
If I had a reason for it, it wouldn't be a gut feeling, now would it? I couldn't begin to give you more detail on that now since said vote was over a month ago (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4588025#msg4588025). Quite frankly, at least I put my money where my mouth was and voted, which is more than I can say for half the players (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4594551#msg4594551) that day- including Lenglon, no less. But hey, her scumbuddy Web wasn't voting either- why vote when the town's already set up mislynch for you? This way they can say they had nothing to do with it.
But yeah, my play's been poor this game- I'm having trouble getting the motivation to do the good deep digging these days.
And I already commented on no lynching:
PPE: No Lynch won't work because Leafsnail has a negative vote. If we had four people with normal votes, it'd be different.
Post by: Lenglon on October 13, 2013, 09:53:00 pm
additionally, there's a key element missing, because we still haven't figured out why certain magics are occuring here.It's patently obvious that you aren't even reading what I'm posting.
Why were Toaster and I turned into humans?
Why was web able to remove her shoes?
Why is Leaf unable to remove her shoes?
Why weren't we able to identify Web1 until she was bitten?
What's up with jim?
How did ZU's protect work?
Tiruin's everything?
how could the prince not recognize his own younger brother?
It doesn't make sense to me that we'd have to totally abandon all sense of immersion in the world Vector created to solve the puzzle. It should be solvable by the characters we're attempting to roleplay, not just by the meta-characters doing the roleplaying. I seriously doubt that the Prince himself rigged his invitations to create a pattern based on colors, and one that identifies specific people as threats and others as safe. I strongly think that we're missing something regarding the origins of the magics causing all this, and I strongly doubt it was all about Jim since Jim's dead and I'm not a flower again. especially so since Jim was apparently a goddess of death and yet all these changes were changes to life, something that had been occurring since before the game began yet in Jim's role PM it was mentioned that her connection to life was tenuous while she still had her attendants.
So where's the magician?
Post by: Toaster on October 13, 2013, 09:59:51 pm
Most of the rest I'd call irrelevant- if it's not here, it's irrelevant.
Jim took the Sleeping God role to a literal extreme.
I'm calling out ZU's protect here because it's extra irrelevant. Who cares how it works?
What about Tiruin's everything? She can't tell us anything apparently, so speculation can only get us so far.
That next-to-last large paragraph really hits at the crux of the problem with you right now- you're attacking Leaf's puzzle any way you can without providing any alternative whatsoever.
Post by: Toaster on October 13, 2013, 10:00:18 pm
What is the puzzle, Lenglon?
Post by: Lenglon on October 13, 2013, 10:10:56 pm
Toaster:So where's the magician?It's patently obvious that you aren't even reading what I'm posting.
Post by: Tiruin on October 13, 2013, 10:11:57 pm
First of all, for everyone's I, I've had two drops of alcohol in my life and that was it. I don't drink, period.I didn't mean to imply anything by that Vector. When I said that I can't relate, I meant that I don't know why people like wine because all my experiences with it resulted in deriving my reaction from the flavor--bitter. I liked the aesthetic of it and...didn't mean anything else by the lack of me saying 'I like it' despite me saying that in a past tense. Meaning: I never meant that I didn't like it..
Second of all, I don't choose my avatars for relatability. I pick them based on what makes me happy. In this case, what made me happy was the Hokusai wave in the wine.
I didn't mean anything by...relatability. It's just that I couldn't find any term back then, but I didn't mean anything untoward against you when I said such. Nor do I have anything against people drinking wine..Or that you should do x or y because of what other people think..I mean, every avatar you've had has its essence of collateral happiness and its always made everyone else happy.
...Or maybe I'm weird because of that given that I've only had wine twice my entire life. And it was all bitter from the tongue down. And then I was all talkative and many other things that relate to drinking a small glass of wine.
...Sorry if you got the wrong idea..
Well I guess there's a benefit in that it could eliminate Tiruin as a scum suspect. Are you worried about the possibility that you're scum, Tiruin :P?Pff nah, that's why I'm pushing my luck and bringing up everything I can given how everyone sees me as innocent. :P
That..and there's always the chance the scum could pick me because they think that I'm not actually bulletproof and have had a +1 life. But what are the chances of that?
Lenglon:Toaster: no, I'm saying that he's twisting my words, quotemining, and trying to repeatedly change the context of the discussion. You also appear to have ignored This post (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4681863#msg4681863) and This one (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=128261.msg4681229#msg4681229), completely.What about Tiruin's everything? She can't tell us anything apparently, so speculation can only get us so farI can actually tell you anything, just not my role because you won't believe me and that anyone else wouldn't believe me. I can tell my ability but withheld telling it in its exact because of the sheer...power it has.
You can ask Jim later on. No, don't think I killed him because I'm not psychic or any of that magic-y stuff.And I already commented on no lynching:PPE: No Lynch won't work because Leafsnail has a negative vote. If we had four people with normal votes, it'd be different.Mm, that's what I thought. LS is weird that he's acting oppositely, but it has basis. The originality deserves kudos though.I think there's a pretty clear lack of colors in the Jim trio- their connection is more of protection. In retrospect, it almost seems like they were there to protect US from JIM, instead of the other way around.Err, didn't anyone get that before?
Fakeedit: Didn't see that in my previous post :x
Anyway, I'm guessing the acolytes, given their context were sent to aid and protect Jin, who seems to be a vessel instead of an actor. Given that she's been somewhat like a prophet, without the innocence of her followers, she was affected by that which I guess, pervades this place. (Yes I'm being wholly speculative).
That this place is cursed by Mother Death, as from what I've heard.
...I really think me and Griffy are only a puzzle to ourselves. I've no connection to anything given my flavor (other than what you saw) and given from what I know of the younger prince, Sigfred didn't like talking about him much-he preferred his older bro.
Everyone: Day ends soon. Verdict?
Lenglon: Last words? It seems unanimous in this case, now.
PPE: Those 3 PPEs.
Huh, right. I think you missed this, Toaster:Toaster: If people haven't proven you town in the situation beforehand, then you would've, and still should've been my prime suspect..mostly due to playstyle.Lenglon:Why propose her to give her own response to the puzzle? Would a more significant explanation persuade you? Do you sincerely agree in full to Leaf's without any implications?Toaster:Be your own spokesman, I can't put up with the fool you have doing your thinking for you.
The key point is that I agree with Leaf's interpretation of the puzzle, and that said interpretation of the puzzle points directly at you being scum. Now your responses to Leaf consist mainly of "LA LA LA I CAN'T HEAR YOU." That only leads me to one question:
If Leaf's puzzle proposal is incorrect, what is the puzzle here?
Post by: Tiruin on October 13, 2013, 10:13:51 pm
First of all, for everyone's I, I've had two drops of alcohol in my life and that was it. I don't drink, period.I didn't mean to imply anything by that Vector. When I said that I can't relate, I meant that I don't know why people like wine because all my experiences with it resulted in deriving my reaction from the flavor--bitter. I liked the aesthetic of it and...didn't mean anything else by the lack of me saying 'I like it' despite me saying that in a past tense. Meaning: I never meant that I didn't like it..
Second of all, I don't choose my avatars for relatability. I pick them based on what makes me happy. In this case, what made me happy was the Hokusai wave in the wine.
I didn't mean anything by...relatability. It's just that I couldn't find any term back then, but I didn't mean anything untoward against you when I said such. Nor do I have anything against people drinking wine..Or that you should do x or y because of what other people think..I mean, every avatar you've had has its essence of collateral happiness and its always made everyone else happy.
...Or maybe I'm weird because of that given that I've only had wine twice my entire life. And it was all bitter from the tongue down. And then I was all talkative and many other things that relate to drinking a small glass of wine.
...Sorry if you got the wrong idea..
Well I guess there's a benefit in that it could eliminate Tiruin as a scum suspect. Are you worried about the possibility that you're scum, Tiruin :P?Pff nah, that's why I'm pushing my luck and bringing up everything I can given how everyone sees me as innocent. :P
That..and there's always the chance the scum could pick me because they think that I'm not actually bulletproof and have had a +1 life. But what are the chances of that?
What about Tiruin's everything? She can't tell us anything apparently, so speculation can only get us so farI can actually tell you anything, just not my role because you won't believe me and that anyone else wouldn't believe me. I can tell my ability but withheld telling it in its exact because of the sheer...power it has.
You can ask Jim later on. No, don't think I killed him because I'm not psychic or any of that magic-y stuff.
PPE: No Lynch won't work because Leafsnail has a negative vote. If we had four people with normal votes, it'd be different.Mm, that's what I thought. LS is weird that he's acting oppositely, but it has basis. The originality deserves kudos though.
I think there's a pretty clear lack of colors in the Jim trio- their connection is more of protection. In retrospect, it almost seems like they were there to protect US from JIM, instead of the other way around.Err, didn't anyone get that before?
Fakeedit: Didn't see that in my previous post :x
Anyway, I'm guessing the acolytes, given their context were sent to aid and protect Jin, who seems to be a vessel instead of an actor. Given that she's been somewhat like a prophet, without the innocence of her followers, she was affected by that which I guess, pervades this place. (Yes I'm being wholly speculative).
That this place is cursed by Mother Death, as from what I've heard.
...I really think me and Griffy are only a puzzle to ourselves. I've no connection to anything given my flavor (other than what you saw) and given from what I know of the younger prince, Sigfred didn't like talking about him much-he preferred his older bro.
Everyone: Day ends soon. Verdict?
Lenglon: Last words? It seems unanimous in this case, now.
PPE: Those 3 PPEs.
Huh, right. I think you missed this, Toaster:
Toaster: If people haven't proven you town in the situation beforehand, then you would've, and still should've been my prime suspect..mostly due to playstyle.Lenglon:Why propose her to give her own response to the puzzle? Would a more significant explanation persuade you? Do you sincerely agree in full to Leaf's without any implications?Toaster:Be your own spokesman, I can't put up with the fool you have doing your thinking for you.
The key point is that I agree with Leaf's interpretation of the puzzle, and that said interpretation of the puzzle points directly at you being scum. Now your responses to Leaf consist mainly of "LA LA LA I CAN'T HEAR YOU." That only leads me to one question:
If Leaf's puzzle proposal is incorrect, what is the puzzle here?
Post by: Toaster on October 13, 2013, 10:20:33 pm
Also,
it's irrelevant
But if you insist on there being a wizard- a sentiment I don't agree with- then my best guess would be "not here." Given we have four unflipped players, there's very little room to put one. Leaf's vote ability is very confirmed- do you think he's also a wizard? You've tracked me twice- do you think I was off doing wizardly things instead of what I claimed? Tiruin's a duck by process of elimination- do you think she's a duck wizard? Are you a wizard?
Tiruin: My verdict is that the last extension was a waste. My vote's not moving unless Lenglon can come up with an epic solution, at this point.
Why not ask Lenglon what the puzzle is? The fact that there is a puzzle is indisputable. She responds to Leaf's solution by tearing it down without providing anything to replace it with. This is self-defense without any offense.
Post by: Lenglon on October 13, 2013, 10:24:41 pm
Post by: Tiruin on October 13, 2013, 10:24:55 pm
Tiruin: My verdict is that the last extension was a waste. My vote's not moving unless Lenglon can come up with an epic solution, at this point.Your verdict focuses more on the time rather than the person...Your attack on her is based on the notion that x has given one solution to the puzzle, though faulty and that y has no solution to counter it. She has given one, in the way of saying what LS says is a lie and that he's making it up to afford the lynch on her 'by due process of elimination'.
She's partly right in that you aren't reading her posts in the way that you aren't expounding on your point on her.
Post by: Toaster on October 13, 2013, 10:31:10 pm
What is the puzzle, Lenglon?
Tiruin: You're forgetting that Vector- word of Mod- said that solving the puzzle would solve the game. By that logic, if we accept Leafsnail's solution (which I do) we lynch Lenglon and win.
Your attack on her is based on the notion that x has given one solution to the puzzle, though faulty and that y has no solution to counter it. She has given one, in the way of saying what LS says is a lie and that he's making it up to afford the lynch on her 'by due process of elimination'.
Two problems with this:
1. I considered that, actually, so I gave her an out:
In any case, Lenglon, I don't want to hear anything more from you that isn't your version of the puzzle or a clear and concise reason why you cannot provide one.
She ignored it (probably didn't even read it) and just starting throwing crap at me.
2. She's voting me. Why? I have no idea (yes I do, it's because she's scum and is flailing). If she suspects Leafsnail, why is she voting me?
Post by: Tiruin on October 13, 2013, 10:35:10 pm
You are 100% sure on this?
I think that the puzzle that Leafsnail proposed (with regards to six players being paired into colors, where one in each pair is scum) is correct.
[...]
Tiruin: You're forgetting that Vector- word of Mod- said that solving the puzzle would solve the game. By that logic, if we accept Leafsnail's solution (which I do) we lynch Lenglon and win.
Post by: Lenglon on October 13, 2013, 10:52:30 pm
It was mostly to get your attention.
Leafsnail
What is the puzzle toaster? Tell me why it is consistant and a solution. I want your words, not leafs.
Post by: Lenglon on October 13, 2013, 11:05:27 pm
Leaf, your insult to mankind of a communication style is utterly unacceptable, and I will not be playing with you again if given a choice.
Toaster, sorry about being so abrasive.
Tiruin, thank you.
I'm just going to walk away, I've been angry and miserable to my family as a result of this game for the past several days, Mafia isn't healthy for me.
I would ask for a replacement, but there's no point this late in the game.
Post by: Tiruin on October 13, 2013, 11:52:35 pm
...Ok, one last question. Just to be sure..
you know what? nevermind. game's over, we lose.'We'?
I'm just going to walk away, I've been angry and miserable to my family as a result of this game for the past several days, Mafia isn't healthy for me.:S
I would ask for a replacement, but there's no point this late in the game.
Hmm, maybe..well, to be honest, you nor Leaf (ok, you took priority in the list of suspicion) didn't ring off quite scummy. However, if..ok, if Town (saying in advance), then..assertion.
...Dear gods am I really having a nostalgic attack on that one time.
...Hm, Vector did say that everything is possible. For the sake of the story and the Prince:
"Why did you do it?"
Post by: Lenglon on October 14, 2013, 12:58:40 am
You'll see tomorrow when I'm lynched.
Post by: Leafsnail on October 14, 2013, 02:10:46 pm
Post by: Tiruin on October 14, 2013, 02:29:32 pm
...And yes, it does make sense. It isn't a requirement, per se, but it is an appealing option given their role.
Post by: Leafsnail on October 14, 2013, 02:50:05 pm
Therefore, I think it's odd that Lenglon is acting angry at me even though she states that I'm a mafia member. Why get annoyed at a member of the enemy team who's doing their job correctly, rather than at the members of your own team who are following them? Therefore I can't see this as anything but an appeal to emotion.
Post by: Tiruin on October 14, 2013, 03:59:01 pm
What purpose will getting mad at others on the same, 'Town' team who aren't (ok, are mostly) sure of each other?
Post by: Leafsnail on October 14, 2013, 04:39:01 pm
Post by: Lenglon on October 14, 2013, 05:23:55 pm
Post by: Vector on October 14, 2013, 09:03:26 pm
Post by: Vector on October 14, 2013, 10:15:43 pm
Warn the Prince of what the peasants think. Meaning what Horatio thinks--and..and then tell him what Horatio told me one evening under the light of the moon.
"Prince," you begin. "S-Sigfred. Horatio told me something you should know."
"Horatio sticks his crooked nose a great many places it isn't wanted," Sigfred mutters, drunk on bitterness to the dregs.
"Please, just listen," you say. "This is no time for quarrels! Both you and Horatio are in grave danger."
And you tell him the truth of what transpired that day, if not the details. Sigfred sits quietly and listens, betraying nothing beyond his grave fatigue. By the end you are crying with guilt, venting, at long last, your poisoned humors. Though the Prince does not reach out to touch you, he leans forward a little and slowly traces nonsense patterns on the table with his fingertips, now closer, now farther away; and in this you appreciate, as intended, the simulation of gentleness.
At last he leans back, and says: "Alas, Horatio! I knew thee well. . .
"What a shame, that all our best--our most brilliant ideals and highest sentiments should come to this. I am sorry that you have seen this thus. I am sore ashamed."
"But there's more," you say. "He told me a secret."
"Enough of his secrets. You have related far too many this evening." He sighs. "I am to die--or if not to die, to be crowned. What use have I for secrets and stories?"
"He says," you say, "That you are too young for all of this."
"The gall! He is only three years older than I!"
"He says that you have not decided who you are to become."
"King," Sigfred huffs, turning a little bit green as he says it.
"But what does that mean?"
Sigfred is silent.
"And--and he says that though he knows it's selfish, he doesn't want to give you up yet."
"And as always, he presumes too much."
"But all he means is for you to be well," you say, "just like all the rest of us you gathered here. You can't count his love as lesser just because it is constant. And it's not greater because it's enduring, either. It's just itself. Love's just love, no matter how long or short. It doesn't need an aim or purpose.
"He has no demands on you. He doesn't think of himself very often. . . I don't think he would have even said anything, if he hadn't been shocked by your anger today and thought to bring you some sort of happiness.
"That--that's what he doesn't want to lose you to. It's that anger, and everything that might cause it. War, and your obligations, and assassinations, and every dark thing you can think of!"
"I know you have the right of it," says Sigfred, "but I wish you did not. I have used him abominably ill."
"Then apologize," you say, "And make up! It's not too late. I know it's not too late--to save that, if nothing else."
"You," says Sigfred, "are the wisest duck I have ever had the pleasure of meeting, if also the most idealistic."
At that moment a knock sounds at the door.
Post by: Vector on October 15, 2013, 03:18:20 am
"Um. . . excuse me for bothering you," she says. She does not pick her eyes up from the floor, and curtseys periodically. "I'm sorry about intruding. It looks like you were in the middle of something. But we've found the last of them. Or so we think. . . I think. . ."
She waits there, quietly, in the way of someone who is long accustomed to being ignored and disbelieved.
Sigfred remembers. He is too familiar with that look.
"Really!" He rises and clasps her clammy hand. "How did you know?"
"Well," she says, unable to look any higher than his collarbone with her hesitant smile, "Let me draw you a picture. . ."
Once upon a time, there was a young man named Sigfred. Though he was not the wisest man of his kingdom, nor the kindest, nor the most loyal, he was to be crowned king. And so despite his fear and misgivings he set aside the provisions demanded by the rituals of his culture: armfuls of blossoms, a musician and dancers, and magnificent birds for his feast.
(He was to be married as well, but his chief retainer had a mind like a steel sieve when it came to that)
One day, Sigfred was visited by a God.
She came to his castle and awaited an audience, but it was many days before he could see her, being busy with the business of his coronation and his other visitors. So she slept there, and infected his dreams with wonders. She could sense his fear and pain, and loneliness, and feelings of doubt. She could feel his raw edge. She was dismayed at his nightmares: of days long ago, of days soon to come. And so she, being powerful and kind, dreamed of more comforting things with all her strength. And so she, unconscious of her own nature and whimsical as every other deity, accidentally transformed the material adornments of his impending sacrifice to friends, who would all love him in their own way. It was as it should be, in the order of things. A good man ought to be blessed with kind companions.
He was charmed by the arts of a veiled musician and at last opened his drafty halls to seek a bride. Those assembled saw him fall asleep, from time to time--then jerk awake, and, with a sweetly dazed smile, make a selection. In this way, he chose thirteen beauties, some innocent, some passionate, some wise; some who would protect his surfeit of gentleness, some who would demand he grow strong enough to protect himself--and stronger--but all of whom adored him.
The Dreamer may have brought doom upon him, but that was not her aim. It was, as her followers would have said, "beyond the scope of the question." She had wished friends upon him, not moralists.
What would happen next? She did not know, or have the fortitude to force a future. She did not even notice that she was attended by her own companions, who loved her more than life itself, and from whom she drew her strength--and that it was from their great love of her that they derived their own powers. She did not know that her dreams had become, in a word, well-ordered--as was their wish of her in a cruel and insensate world.
But as for the God herself, she was too busy dreaming. . .
So deep was her sleep that she did not know, even, that she had inspired the wrath of a Goddess far more jealous than she.
They gather in the Great Hall: a prince, a rose, a woman wearing black shoes, a small brown duck. A servant, waiting and silent. The focus of their attention is a pale slip of a girl, sitting on a bench and dangling her legs. She has a blank, round face, yellow-green eyes, blond hair so ashy it looks almost white.
"So you were a lily, fair funeral-flower."
Sigfred draws his sword.
"Did you?" he asks. "Did you slaughter them? Why? What made you think it was worth it?"
"i loved your beauty in simple black," she tells him.
"But surely it was not worth their suffering," he says through his tears. "Surely you would not condemn innocents to Death--for that. I--"
He levels the point of his sword at the hollow of her throat and she stares back blankly, uncomprehending, with a smile for his attention.
"prince though we do eat your dead, slaughtering her is not in the interests of the ROSE CLAN," another girl hastens to say. The lily rolls her eyes. "diversification of investments is the essence of a good reproductive strategy. women will tire of wearing only roses before long."
"What?" says Sigfred, but he is interrupted by the duck, which quacks loudly and at great length.
"Perhaps," Sigfred replies. "That was quite well said. Thank you for your input."
"Sigfred, i-it isn't my place to say this, but I think. . . I--I think that you're being very stupid. If the entirety of your argument is that she should not have killed innocents, then I would add as c-counterpoint that there is n-nothing more innocent than her. Probably. Do you think she knew what she was doing?"
"yes," the lily says. "i am mistress of myself i was not born yesterday"
Albeit taken aback at being undermined by the very woman she was trying to defend, the girl in iron shoes presses on.
"Sh-sh-she knows enough to love b-b-beauty and i-it's said that a-aesthetics are the c-cornerstone of morals," she says, "So couldn't some-one teach her how to be a human being? We have spoken together a great deal these past days. S-she is not evil, just misguided. I know the darker side of life far too well. . . t-trust me. . ."
The duck quacks some more, with great enthusiasm.
"B-be quiet you. Th-the dead are dead and wh-what is past is past. I-it's sad and my heart aches dreadfully to think of it, but it's true. All the b-bodies are b-b-b-buried. Let's move on. I know too well that you could persist in this moment forever."
Sigfred sighs, and drops his blade with a clatter.
"This will not look well to the Guard," he says.
"Sigfred," Horatio says gently, "do you really mean you still aim to please them? I have not seen you do anything that pleased anyone but your own self, these past days."
"You say I am to be framed for assassination of Mo--of that woman found in my bed, and that you yourself are to be condemned for, ah, other crimes! What can we do but try please them?"
"give them roses, they'll calm soon enough"
"pull them up by the roots"
"QUACK!!"
"Th-they would kill you on mere speculation," says the girl in iron shoes. "Because they are bored and brutal. They have no interest in the facts. Disband the King's Guard and offer them a portion of your treasury. You are not using it."
"You were not here while Claudius ruled," says Horatio, "but he had an adviser who said something wise--if only once. 'This above all: to thine own self be true.' Liege, do as you would and I shall follow."
"You knew I was a duck all along?"
"Yes. It was not difficult to discern. You are a prime example of a duck."
"D-does that mean that y-you would have married me?!"
". . . No, I'm afraid not--but I couldn't mention it and send you away. I didn't want to embarrass you before all the other ladies."
The Prince is just as considerate as you had always imagined!
"Please keep Horatio company while I am gone, as you have been. And don't go searching through his things again. That was unwise."
You nod.
"And be sure he bars the door while he is sleeping, and does not forget to eat, and does not get wrapped up in one of his melancholic fits or do anything stupid as he so often does."
Horatio has more sense than Sigfred. . . you aren't sure where this is coming from all of a sudden.
"Be sure that the Queen uses him better than I have, and that you keep her in high spirits. Even a duck has responsibilities."
Sigfred guides the two flower-girls to the armory.
"your family received this suit of armor from the ROSE CLAN as a gift back in the days when you respected the crops you grew"
"those days did not happen according to the LILY CLAN records"
"you are mistaken it is known in our roots. thorns guarded castles and soldiers guarded gardens. lilies adorned caskets once a lifetime"
"the LILY CLAN did not receive favor
"they gave that suit of armor as a gift
"a gift with no hopes tied to it"
"then why does it have roses stenciled on it"
"your colonialist attitude and smug superiority have permanently stained the LILY CLAN's cultural expression"
"now you find your words"
"i have words for what i know"
"Guard the Queen with your lives, you who do not bleed, who grow again from slivers of yourselves," says Sigfred. "She will keep both your gardens blooming bright, and more. I will make her promise to till the soil and water your grounds herself once a year, as a gesture of tribute. I will ask her to adorn visitors' rooms with bouquets of flowers, and encourage them to take plants with them to their homelands.
"If you seek husbands, she will help you find them. Your obligations are to her now. Swear your fealty and live by it, and your clans shall be well cared for."
"the ROSE CLAN did us ill"
"the LILY CLAN does not know when to quit"
"We will give you all you need and more," says Sigfred. "For both of you, it shall be days of plenty forever. And a great number of lessons in elocution and ethics. I cannot say I envy you."
He grins cheekily, and takes his leave.
"Sir," says the pageboy, dirty, ragged, and carrying an enormous bird. "I have returned from the hunt."
"What's this?" says Sigfred.
"A wild goose, sir," says the pageboy, holding it out.
Sigfred clasps him to his chest.
"So there was one who was faithful after all," he says. "To think you would return, even after three days of chasing wild geese."
They feast well that twilight, and offer every ounce of leftover to the hungry guards, who are somewhat mollified.
"My dear," says Sigfred, "though it pains me to announce it after all this time, I cannot marry thee."
They are sitting side by side on a bench in the castle gardens, near the White Swan's final resting place. The night air is cool and sweet.
"Oh," says the girl in iron shoes. "I--"
She doesn't say anything more, nor does she cry. She is too accustomed to disappointment. She looks at her nail-bitten hands, which worry her black dress. Sigfred cannot look at her either.
"I hear you are frightened for your prospects," says Sigfred, "and I know that you are clever, wise, and even-tempered. I would not have you go wanting while I save myself. Tell me, what do you know of Death?"
"Only that it is dark and fearsome, and that no two men believe the same of it."
"And--how much do you believe in the Gods?"
"This may shock and displease you," says the girl in iron shoes, "but I do not offer them belief at all, for in a just world I would not be shod thus. In a just world I would have been forgiven. Punishment without reprieve is also a death, and I would refuse this."
"Must the Gods be just?"
"They need not be just; but I need not be faithful either."
"I will not disabuse you of that notion," says Sigfred, shuddering, "nor may I offer you a wedding ring, nor can I offer you a just world, though you deserve it."
She blushes, from bodice to forehead.
"There is something, however, that I can offer."
Sigfred falls to his knees beside her and wrests the signet from his finger. Shaking from head to foot, he presses it into her hand.
"Take it. Please. Rule this land. Be gentle and discerning, and wise, and faithful to your subjects. Show them--show them that their sovereign can be trusted, and that they need not live in fear of evil, nor fall to evil themselves. Show them, if you will forgive the expression, that there is more to life than iron fists and sacrificial lambs."
"I shall do that and more," says the girl, and slides it onto her finger. It is a monstrosity in ruby, onyx, and bone, but somehow, she thinks, it suits.
"Also," says Sigfred, rising and dusting some of the dirt from his trousers, "there is the matter of the royal gardens. . ."
"I have used you ill," says Sigfred, "been abominable and disloyal, insulted you and treated you worse than a dog. And now, I ask you to serve the new Queen with as much tenderness as you have me."
Horatio swallows, but continues to saddle his master's horse without saying a word.
"Won't you say something?"
"It is all as you have said," says Horatio, "And yet, you--Sigfred, you are wan."
"Stop thinking of me for a moment and speak your mind," Sigfred mutters. "You have tended me for far too long."
"Have you no other orders, liege?"
"I am useless without you," Sigfred begins, "And that is why I must depart alone."
"I see," says Horatio.
"And I shall forever be followed by Death. I know that now. Yes, this very mor--" Sigfred retches, presses his hands to his mouth, holds fast. "I cannot speak of it. How is it that I cannot speak of it? I trust you more than any other man alive, and I cannot speak of it!"
"Peace, Sigfred. It will come in time."
"How can I be at peace when--"
And again, his breath comes too quick, and he is overcome with shakes. Horatio abandons the horse and sits beside him, carefully, in the hay.
"Won't you give me your hand, Sigfred? . . . There. See, it's warm."
"And. . . scarred. Where did that come from?"
"Ah yes," says Horatio. He looks away, but his face does not close, and he does not retract his hand from Sigfred's shaking palm. "I fell down."
"One of these days, I shall. . . disabuse you of all your lies."
"That will happen only if we should meet again, liege."
"Stop calling me that. I will never bear the weight of the crown."
"I await your final orders. Once you have given them, then I shall leave off your title--and you shall leave."
Sigfred rests against the straw, pretending to think, but instead taking in the stable where he spent so much of his boyhood, its manure, its rough-hewn rafters, the corner of the kennel where his father had kept hunting dogs, the well-oiled tack carefully stowed--the sure sign of Horatio's work on anything that did not actually belong to him. Having carved much bitterness into his memory over the past days, he struggles, at least for a moment, to cling to something sweet.
"Once the Queen is well-settled," he says, dropping each syllable as though from a great tower, "Once she is duly crowned and you know that the border is held, and that she is happy with her lot and well-respected, and she gives you leave, Horatio, come and find me."
Horatio beams at him.
"With pleasure."
So it was that the last of the three sons left his lands forever, and rode alone into the night. The kingdom he left behind was better than he had found it, or than he would have ruled it; and the queen upon the throne of Denmark became known in lands particular and distant. Her halls were filled with music and flowers, and the image of her iron shoes became known among her people as a symbol of both justice and mercy for as long as she ruled. The hobnails with which they had always soled their boots became fashionable, and chosen for their resonance--so that a particularly enviable pair would be greeted with the exclamation: "Ah! There's the Queen walking!"
As for Sigfred, he rode that road a long time--lonely, grieving, spent and anxious.
But not always.
"Prince," says Aureliusz Vektor. "Prince, you haven't finished your story!"
Sigfred groans. He is sprawled on the bar, drooling on the wood, with Mischka half-lying on his face. He spits out a bit of her fur.
"It is either late or early," he says, "I cannot remember which, and I do not know if I am alive, dead, or dreaming. Don't wake me. Let me just sleep a little bit longer."
"This is not an inn, Prince," says Vektor.
"That is fortunate," says Sigfred, "since I am not a prince."
"Young man, you do not seem an evil sort, but you are not an honest one either; and I do not know what to do with you. Also, you are soused."
"Help me be honest," says Sigfred. "Teach me a better way to do things. I have done ill--you do not know the beginning of it--and I have a longer story to be told than can be related in a single eveninggggsch."
"You can borrow the quilt my wife sewed and sleep in the stables to start," says Vektor, helping him stagger towards the door, "and then in the morning you can draw water from the well and save an old man his aches and pains. I will not accept your money. Coin never worked for is no good for a man like you."
"That's fortunate," says Sigfred, "because I haven't any."
"We are agreed, then. You will help me here until you are useful, and then I will send you on your way richer in sense, if not money."
"Yes," says Sigfred, "Under you, I will gladly serve."
You are Lenglon the Lily.
you used to be a plant in the castle garden until one day you turned into a girl
this is confusing
you wear a white dress and you think you are very pretty
there is a prince here who wears black clothes and you think he is very pretty
a black swan says she will outcompete all the other plants/girls to win the prince's affections by adopting a more intelligent evolutionary strategy
like covering herself in bright colors to get more bees you ask because the LILY CLAN you are part of missed out on that one
no like uprooting the other girls she says
that is a pretty good idea to be honest
your flower wait your head hurts a lot and you want to eat dirt but the black swan keeps stopping you
maybe things will make more sense later?
You are a member of The Black Swan's Cohort. You have a private chat here (http://www.quicktopic.com/50/H/YiJG6k7D22XCH). You win when the girls outside the cohort are dead.
you can follow someone each night to find out where they went
Post by: Vector on October 15, 2013, 03:29:58 am
Dead Chat (http://www.quicktopic.com/50/H/33N34BKXZXu8W)
"Fe"ather Chat (http://www.quicktopic.com/50/H/ibJMjCkYxN2x)
"M"ind Chat (http://www.quicktopic.com/50/H/iyJGAggQ8eN)
"Fl"ower Chat (http://www.quicktopic.com/50/H/TpEWEmSiSTr)
"B"ody Chat (http://www.quicktopic.com/50/H/E9tryJQqSnd34)
Spoiler: Night One Actions (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Night Two Actions (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Night Three Actions (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Night Four Actions (click to show/hide)
Post by: Vector on October 15, 2013, 03:32:02 am
Spoiler: The Hopeful Prince (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Duck (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: The White Swan (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: The Black Swan (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: The Gardener (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Lily (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Rose (click to show/hide)
Post by: Tiruin on October 15, 2013, 03:32:18 am
It came off too general to me, but darn did you do well!
Also dat flavor.
*reads the chats*
Edit: Err..I think I interrupted a list of Vector-posts. Oops.
...Toaster, your all non-caps is beautiful.
Quote
Tiruin tracks Horatio (?!)Loved the flexibility you did.
Edit II: I can't believe it but I'm crying at how happy the ending is--The lily and rose clan reunited and..and well pretty much everything else. That's really beautiful Vector!
Post by: Vector on October 15, 2013, 03:33:30 am
Spoiler: The Balalaika Player (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Black Shoes (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Red Shoes (click to show/hide)
Post by: Vector on October 15, 2013, 03:34:11 am
Spoiler: Sleeping Beauty, Dreaming Goddess, Dreaming Death (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Lovelace (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Hypatia (click to show/hide)
Post by: Vector on October 15, 2013, 03:37:57 am
I'll fully explain the seven puzzles (of which you deciphered six! Good job), various planned and possible endings, a massive text-dump on flavortext and everything else either tomorrow or the next day. For now, yes, I did hit the character limit three different times. There's a lot to read if you're feeling romantic and masochistic.
Post by: Vector on October 15, 2013, 03:45:20 am
Edit II: I can't believe it but I'm crying at how happy the ending is--The lily and rose clan reunited and..and well pretty much everything else. That's really beautiful Vector!
YESSSSS AT LONG LAST SOMEONE OTHER THAN THE MOD IS CRYING
*cough DeadChat cough*
Thank you >______________<
Post by: Tiruin on October 15, 2013, 03:48:36 am
AS IN, REALLY!Edit II: I can't believe it but I'm crying at how happy the ending is--The lily and rose clan reunited and..and well pretty much everything else. That's really beautiful Vector!
YESSSSS AT LONG LAST SOMEONE OTHER THAN THE MOD IS CRYING
*cough DeadChat cough*
Thank you >______________<
It's so..it's so beautiful. That ending? (Yeah Leafsnail got the major puzzle, I wanted to post a finishing statement but..darn, it felt..too hammer-ish on Lenglon..)
The Iron Shoe. The Queen of the Realm.
AWWWWWWWWW You don't know how darn happy I am with all that writing <3 <3 <3
Folks, you've been lovely, it's 1:30, I kept writing through an earthquake, and now I'm going to bed.Awaiting it well!
I'll fully explain the seven puzzles (of which you deciphered six! Good job), various planned and possible endings, a massive text-dump on flavortext and everything else either tomorrow or the next day. For now, yes, I did hit the character limit three different times. There's a lot to read if you're feeling romantic and masochistic.
Edit: Phah! I knew everyone else had a quicktopic!
..Also wondered what the Fe was. Firstly thought of Iron xD *shakes fist at chemistry*
Edit II: ...The scum PMs.
They're very moving.
Especially Lenglon's? Wow. It's..it's no wonder she got a good ending too.
...She just wanted to belong.
Also did we get this thing right here? (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GoldenEnding)
Edit III: [Emotional overload on reading everything else. Tears, joy and praise.]
Last edit: Flower Chat for best chat. :v
Thank you Solifuge. (http://i.imgur.com/6sjD0gC.png)
Quote from: Deadchat
And his first name is Adolf, why did that not tell you anythingI got the memo right when I was fed red herring. Ok, maybe not then, but really when I read the Capt.'s words. :P
But I figured, hey, let's roll with being simpleminded here! All for the Prince! Hurrah~
>_>
<_<
Is it weird that I somehow like Adolf?!
Post by: Jim Groovester on October 15, 2013, 04:44:31 am
Especially for changing my wincon at the last minute arghgrumblegrumble.
Quote from: zombie urist's flavor
hints and clues, hints and clues everywhere!
Quote from: Jim Groovester in Mind Chat
Could you explain more fully your N1 and N2 flavor?
*sigh*
Post by: Lenglon on October 15, 2013, 04:54:17 am
I was convinced that I had to be the last scum standing....
I don't see how the cohort can win as a group. our motivations are to be to individual the prince picks, but we can't guarentee that unless everyone, including the other cohort members are dead.
are we really a team? do we really win together?
No, "all the other girls outside the cohort." Sorry about that, I never meant it to be obscure. You're a regular three-person scumteam.
after all, with the way I was allowing people to guide and manipulate me in my night pms, I would not win against any of the other scum when the infighting began.
Annnd...
wow @ ending.
that's pretty amazing there Vector.
I... kinda had a pet goal in mind, I wanted me and Tiruin to be the last two left ever since day 1.
Almost managed it too...
that pet project was the real reason i didn't even try to make a case against you Tiruin :P
Post by: Leafsnail on October 15, 2013, 04:56:55 am
Post by: Tiruin on October 15, 2013, 05:00:17 am
I... kinda had a pet goal in mind, I wanted me and Tiruin to be the last two left ever since day 1.P-pet? O_o
Almost managed it too...
that pet project was the real reason i didn't even try to make a case against you Tiruin :P
W-wait. You're a lily! You-..
To be honest, your flavor and backstory (as well as how your motive was presented) was simply brilliant--formatting and writing wise.
'Roots flowers dirt!'
Buuuut what did you mean back there?
Also I really hope nothing gets in between you and LS. The both of you are really cool dudes. :<
Quote from: Jim; Deadchat
In a flavor update, you should mention a locked door, and give it a little mystery about it, and see how long Tiruin spends trying to RP getting it open.Aw, now that's just trying to future-guess me there. I had figured--sans the quicktopic--that the flavor was mostly as a spicy sprinkle on the top of this cake.
So I indulged, and despite the...morbidity of the situation (I did not see the squick coming.), wanted to make it better.
...Hopefully nobody drew bad assumptions on my personality on that? I mean, the story is good.
Edit: Oh gods am I being pretty loquacious with the typing.
Webadict's #178 @deadchat makes a really good point.
Physical horror? Hmm, plausible. But how the media runs it nowadays? Mehhh..
Psychological horror? That's where the going gets kicked and tumbled down a hill of weeds.
...Because the psyche hasn't been fully understood by science. It defines fear.
> On the note on the Prince's melancholy-I was talking about the Prince after everything had happened. Why he was being melancholic with Aurelius and all.
I must make my statements more time-defined.
Ok last edit for real:
I really hope I didn't fatigue you Vector, or did anything that you'd hold against me in my..actions.
Edit: Reading through it all-I did. I'm a horrible person. Why didn't anyone tell me.
Post by: Lenglon on October 15, 2013, 05:17:14 am
I killed you, directly or indirectly.
I was felt really guilty about it at the time, and I decided, then and there, that NOPE! NOT HAPPENING! NOT AGAIN!
so I decided that I was going to try to make you live to endgame.
scum can only win with an equal or smaller number of townies alive as them.
and since at the time, I thought that I had to be the last scum standing if I wanted to win...
well, I was only allowed to let one townie live to endgame.
so me as last scum standing, plus you as last townie standing, was my goal. I didn't care if I reached it from lylo by lynching <not you> or if I reached it from mylo by lynching <not you> then nking <other not you>.
Sorry, but I'm going to be avoiding Leaf for a while. nothing against those that associate with him, but I can't put up with him. Certain styles of deception I really cannot stand, and his preferred toolkit is loaded with them.
((minor communication detail since I think I understand your confusion, the phrase "pet project" has "project" used as a modifier to "pet", not "pet" as a modifier to "project". it's a project that someone keeps and uses and works on as a form of pet, simply for their own gratification, not about a project done specifically for a pet.))
EDIT: got that last part backwards, fixed now.
Edit: Oh gods am I being pretty loquacious with the typing.Eh, I partially disagree. The realization of being doomed is nowhere near as bad as when you might be doomed, but don't know if you are, but being fully aware that any second from now a blade could come scything out of nowhere to strike you down from behind, and every second you tarry increases the chances of it happening... and then in the darkness, you look to one side and see something that seems exactly like something you saw before, but you aren't sure, not without a closer look, and you don't dare waste time trying to find out.
Webadict's #178 @deadchat makes a really good point.
Physical horror? Hmm, plausible. But how the media runs it nowadays? Mehhh..
Psychological horror? That's where the going gets kicked and tumbled down a hill of weeds.
...Because the psyche hasn't been fully understood by science. It defines fear.
the terror isn't in the knowing, it's in the NOT knowing. once you finally know and come to accept it, then it's easy enough to simply operate on spite. when you don't know but strongly suspect, and only have the faintest glimmer of hope, but that hope remains, is where the real terror lies. at least to me.
Post by: Leafsnail on October 15, 2013, 05:54:53 am
Post by: Lenglon on October 15, 2013, 06:24:37 am
Post by: birdy51 on October 15, 2013, 07:08:02 am
Damn good flavor writing Vector.
Post by: Toaster on October 15, 2013, 08:54:49 am
Quote
you pick lots of flowers from the garden to help the other girls with their reproductive strategies and promote the ROSE CLAN's interests
they will have a random ability they have used replenished since their improved evolutionary strategy will provide positive motivation
You have NO IDEA how badly I wanted to quote these two lines directly. Leaf deserves props for figuring out that Lenglon's flavor claim was slight because she couldn't quote the "this is why I am scum" part.
Good game, and well written, though I didn't play very well.
Still reading flavor, by the way. The parts I've read are quite enjoyable.
Post by: Tiruin on October 15, 2013, 09:14:57 am
I was really really wondering what you were hinting back then. It was worth concealing until the end, though.Quoteyou pick lots of flowers from the garden to help the other girls with their reproductive strategies and promote the ROSE CLAN's interests
they will have a random ability they have used replenished since their improved evolutionary strategy will provide positive motivation
You have NO IDEA how badly I wanted to quote these two lines directly. [...]
Leaf deserves all the props. I should watch manga more.
the same week as Night 1 began, in both other forum games were were active in together, what happened?D'aww :< It's different this time![/referencialjoke]
I killed you, directly or indirectly.
I was felt really guilty about it at the time, and I decided, then and there, that NOPE! NOT HAPPENING! NOT AGAIN!
so I decided that I was going to try to make you live to endgame.
scum can only win with an equal or smaller number of townies alive as them.
and since at the time, I thought that I had to be the last scum standing if I wanted to win...
well, I was only allowed to let one townie live to endgame.
so me as last scum standing, plus you as last townie standing, was my goal. I didn't care if I reached it from lylo by lynching <not you> or if I reached it from mylo by lynching <not you> then nking <other not you>.
But yeah. You could've tried that, and then we would've tussled :D
I still wonder what would've happened if the scum outnumbered the town, or if in case I decided to... elope with Griffy. Would the former equal the hammer-endgame?
Post by: Shakerag on October 15, 2013, 09:21:18 am
Post by: Leafsnail on October 15, 2013, 09:35:01 am
The mafia did have a tough job. They had to make up a lot of flavour and try to conceal the puzzle. Then again, numbers wise the town was at a disadvantage, and we were lucky to lose all three third parties before they caused a problem.
I can see how the mod error on N3 arose - the mafiachat was somewhat ambiguous. In future it would be best to require all actions to be clearly bolded. That said, Vector should have told webadict the rules regarding mod errors at that point.
Post by: notquitethere on October 15, 2013, 10:34:29 am
Post by: Solifuge on October 15, 2013, 10:57:02 am
Post by: Toaster on October 15, 2013, 11:08:37 am
How would the ending have changed if the Young Prince had survived?
I approve of Lenglon's Jim-kill flavor.
Also, quack quack.
Quote
Vektor - In Lenglon's case, would that be "Love and Photosynthesis"?
Glad I wasn't the only one who made this connection!
Quote
I have to say that I'm very uncomfortable with the game balance (there are some power interactions I was relying on that have just not synthesized, and I'm feeling a little bit bad for a couple people)
I'm curious what you meant here.
Griff in deadchat #46 raises an interesting point- who, really IS a threat to the prince?
I have a hard time trusting Leafsnail after Prince's Guard.
And a stellar scum and dead chat. Especially later dead chat.
Finally, Mad Scientist Mafia better be a thing.
(Tiruin: You do have a tendency to insist on following every single possible tiniest little thread of info. It's what Leaf here and me in other games mean by endless repetition. You should become a detective IRL, because you simply won't let up.)
Post by: Tiruin on October 15, 2013, 11:12:12 am
(Tiruin: You do have a tendency to insist on following every single possible tiniest little thread of info. It's what Leaf here and me in other games mean by endless repetition. You should become a detective IRL, because you simply won't let up.)I've done a bad thing and sorry >_< was just trying to ensure that I jive with my intuition...which then came out blank until I reread everything and noticed the subtlest of gaps in Lenglon's prods..but didn't want to call her out directly on it because...well, I did feel like she was under enough pressure and the gaps in her replies were..that!
Sorry..
Post by: Toaster on October 15, 2013, 11:15:52 am
Post by: webadict on October 15, 2013, 12:58:00 pm
Anyone who has a green name in the OP won.Actually, everyone won, since the game was sufficiently broken by mod error.
The mafia did have a tough job. They had to make up a lot of flavour and try to conceal the puzzle. Then again, numbers wise the town was at a disadvantage, and we were lucky to lose all three third parties before they caused a problem.
I can see how the mod error on N3 arose - the mafiachat was somewhat ambiguous. In future it would be best to require all actions to be clearly bolded. That said, Vector should have told webadict the rules regarding mod errors at that point.
Post by: Vector on October 17, 2013, 10:03:19 am
(You may have noticed that people stopped perma-dying, instead being "banished," after the error appeared)
The promised final update will be issued later today--I've been busier over the past couple of days than anticipated.
Post by: Vector on October 17, 2013, 08:47:50 pm
Also did we get this thing right here? (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GoldenEnding)
Something like that.
In general, the longer the game went on, the more likely you were to end up with an ending in which some part of the game's original terms were subverted. The Prince doesn't get married! The best partner for the Prince is a dude! The Prince really doesn't want to be crowned! The Prince isn't very Princely at all!
What begins as a reconstruction of the basic fairy tale marriage plot ends up deconstructed, all the way down--at the end--to this possibility: "the Prince is dead and Aureliusz Vektor is being visited by his ghost."
Or, alternatively, "the Prince becomes Death's bride."
There are versions of the story where Horatio drowns himself, and versions where the Prince marries a bride and leaves her, and versions where the Prince marries someone, leaves them, and can be convinced to return to Denmark--and versions where he and the bride elope. There are versions in which Denmark crumbles, or converts to the Dreamer's religion. Something to note is that the town and scum endings are generally pretty similar, with main difference being the way in which the Prince solves his problems: through being clever, or through violence. When the Gardener-Sage survives, the Prince is wiser and gentler; when the Hopeful Prince succeeds, the Prince is more likely to run off with his chosen partner, rather than leaving them in Denmark.
Mother Death appearing at all means that the game will get a great deal darker.
Solving the puzzle guarantees a better ending than not solving the puzzle, and a longer game will increase the intensity of the ending, whether good or bad. Now, for a couple of the more interesting possibilities. . .
"Thanatos" ending: Mother Death is the only survivor. She slaughters everyone else in the castle other than the Prince, marries him, crowns him, and he reigns as her puppet on the throne until she gives birth to a monstrous heir, which tries to eat the Prince. Then he runs away. Game closes on stanza 6 of Keats' Ode to a Nightingale (http://www.bartleby.com/126/40.html).
"Dance of the Dead" ending: All of the players die. There's a resurgence of plague. Everyone dies! Mother Death, feeling humorous, sends back the cast of Hamlet + Sigfred and The Hopeful Prince to rule Denmark; they're easy to ply now and hell, why not. Sigfred decides he's had enough of haunting the place and taking orders from his ghost-uncle, so he leaves to haunt Vektor's bar instead.
"Songs of Innocence" ending: Town wins with minimal losses and Sigfred marries the Balalaika Player. This is the false Good End, since the marriage is kind of rocky after they get to know each other better, there's a language barrier, and whoooops it's the Middle Ages.
"Songs of Experience" ending: Scum wins (no players lost) and Sigfred marries the Black Swan. This is the false Bad End, since the Black Swan is actually a pretty good queen, and she and Sigfred complement each other nicely. Sure, he's not quite the innocent she met him as. So what?
"Knight in Shining Armor" ending: Scum wins with one player left (and some other conditions, which I won't bore you with here). Sigfred armors up all the way into full plate, murders the remaining bride, and heads off into the night to enact Justice. The night with Vektor represents a temporary softening and confession, during which he repeatedly lies about his actions in order to get sympathy. Horatio follows Sigfred, not out of some sort of mutual decision, but because they have a ludicrously codependent relationship. Everything is terrible.
I really hope I didn't fatigue you Vector, or did anything that you'd hold against me in my..actions.
Don't worry about it. The last part of the game was one of the best things I've ever written. Exhausting? Yes. . . but I accepted my fardel and went for it.
Finally, Mad Scientist Mafia better be a thing.
Oh, it's happening. The flavor's going to be very light, but it will happen.
I have concepts for another few flavor-heavy games coming down the pipe in the next little bit, so please look forward to those as well. I'm going to take a little bit of time to rest first, though :3
I know you have a few more questions I haven't answered, but those are being saved for the final mechanics post. Sit tight!
Post by: Lenglon on October 17, 2013, 10:25:02 pm
"Knight in Shining Armor" ending: Scum wins with one player left (and some other conditions, which I won't bore you with here). Sigfred armors up all the way into full plate, murders the remaining bride, and heads off into the night to enact Justice. The night with Vektor represents a temporary softening and confession, during which he repeatedly lies about his actions in order to get sympathy. Horatio follows Sigfred, not out of some sort of mutual decision, but because they have a ludicrously codependent relationship. Everything is terrible.Wait, so under no circumstances was I able to *really* win?
...
wow.
Post by: Toaster on October 17, 2013, 10:31:31 pm
Post by: Vector on October 17, 2013, 10:53:22 pm
Wait, so under no circumstances was I able to *really* win?
...
wow.
(and some other conditions, which I won't bore you with here)
This is an ending for a scum player who won a brutally nasty game (with "brutally nasty" divided along a few different metrics; there's also requirements that Mother Death have shown up early in the game and stayed around for a while, etc.). This game was not brutally nasty; therefore, that ending would not have happened. It would have been a profound error of tone, and I am not that bad of a writer.
I mentioned The Black Swan and The Balalaika Player specifically because they received special mentions in flavor at the beginning of the game. If someone else plays notably well--then you guessed it, the ending is focused on them.
A "flower power" ending with just you and me left would have been interesting.
Yeah, the "paired" endings would have been really nice. I'm sorry we didn't get to see any of those.
Post by: zombie urist on October 17, 2013, 11:04:35 pm
Also I'm sorry for not giving this game very much attention. :-[
Post by: Vector on October 17, 2013, 11:44:09 pm
The game is set in the early 1500s. In general there's only a couple of blatant anachronisms, most involving textiles: I described the characters as wearing "trousers" rather than "hose" in multiple places (I didn't want to make anyone think they were all in tights; nor did I say "breeches," since that implies short pants nowadays), and that's not even getting into the fact that Horatio, as a servant, probably would be running around without pants at all. Same with Alexandersen. Also, he'd be sleeping on the floor of his master's bedroom--or, had his king and queen really valued him that much, he'd be a minor lord somewhere, ordering around peasants of his own. I'm pretending that his position's been upgraded a bit what with so many people being dead and all.
However, the most important thing: since we're in the era of hose, that means Sigfred probably has a really obtrusive codpiece. You're welcome. It's preferable to Elizabethan ruffles, which came with the breeches and Shakespeare and all that stuff around 1600. But this is set in a Shakespearean setting, which is why a man can put on a dress and immediately pass as female, and a duck can put on a mask and suddenly be seen as a girl by everyone around. Disguises don't work here the same way they do in the normal world.
Most of the characters were adapted from Tchaikovsky ballets, Hamlet/math stuff, or Hans Christen Andersen fairytales. However, the duck comes from this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z4_OOcdWQSo), which I am moderately embarrassed to admit post-game.
The Seven Puzzles:
1. Characters, other than The Hopeful Prince, are organized into four categories. Discovering this fact results in a quicktopic for each group. There is one "danger to the prince" per quicktopic.
2. Death of the acolytes results in the Dreamer being powered, and then having an alignment change.
3. Death of the flowers results in the Gardener-Sage being depowered.
4. Death of the Balalaika Player results in the dancers being depowered, with a favorable tilt to scum.
5. One of the swans successfully being a lyncher/NKer to the other results in Tiruin gaining a power of some flavor, which will be favorable to the lyncher's group. There was going to be an entire backstory about the swans warring over dominion of waterfowl in general, but both died far too soon to put that into play.
6. Third parties, other than Dreaming Death, are male. Hence the scum win condition, which permits other third parties--other than Dreaming Death--to win with them.
7. All characters other than the Hopeful Prince are grouped by color: red, black, and white. The four groups each have a "head" and two "tails." In the three groups that are blatantly marked, one of the two tails is scum. In the fourth, the head is scum.
I was slightly incorrect--you ended up getting 5/7. Still, good job!
The Dreamer's Powers:
Note: I realized I left Jim Groovester's second role upgrade out. You can see it back a couple of pages ago.
She starts off as an Inventor with the following one-shot abilities she can give other people:
Gift - Post restriction
Clarity - Do nothing
Anvil - Reduce hammer threshold on someone by one
Sanctity - Cop
Cut - Doctor
Writer's Curse - Roleblock
Prince Gauss - Vig
Bell - Friendly neighbor
Touch - Flavor inspect
Then after one of her acolytes dies, she is reduced to the following abilities, which apply universally:
Bell - Friendly neighbor
Cut - Doctor
Anvil - Reduce hammer threshold on all by one
Gift - Post restriction
Touch - Light flavor inspection (would not have revealed colors, genders, etc.)
For "Gift," I would have written all flavor in rhymed iambic pentameter. The players' requirements would have been substantially lighter.
QuoteI have to say that I'm very uncomfortable with the game balance (there are some power interactions I was relying on that have just not synthesized, and I'm feeling a little bit bad for a couple people)
I'm curious what you meant here.
I felt pretty awful for you and TWS after everyone who had one-shot abilities, inspects, or protections bit it. That was a poor design decision.
Griff in deadchat #46 raises an interesting point- who, really IS a threat to the prince?
A threat to the Prince remaining as he is? The Black Swan, Lily, Red Shoes, Dreaming Death.
What if Tiruin had died first?
The Hopeful Prince would have left the game, or, if absolutely necessary for game balance, joined the town with some sort of very low-level ability.
Also I'm sorry for not giving this game very much attention. :-[
That's okay. Look at how much I screwed up ;D It didn't deserve that much attention.
Post by: Tiruin on October 18, 2013, 12:26:48 am
Most of the characters were adapted from Tchaikovsky ballets, Hamlet/math stuff, or Hans Christen Andersen fairytales. However, the duck comes from this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z4_OOcdWQSo), which I am moderately embarrassed to admit post-game.I was wondering on the track or train of thought with the characters in the play. I stuck it on 'the ugly duckling' story, but then it didn't make sense given the differences, so I threw it on an adaptation.
It's not that bad, now that I see the basis. Literary ending, perhaps? Kinda more on the really nice scale. :)
Quote
6. Third parties, other than Dreaming Death, are male. Hence the scum win condition, which permits other third parties--other than Dreaming Death--to win with them.
That's a nice twist! Every third party could've just turned on their heels and killed us then. :D
Quote
For "Gift," I would have written all flavor in rhymed iambic pentameter. The players' requirements would have been substantially lighter.Now this is a sign of a creative mod. :)) The role flavors were really nice to read.
No wonder Death speaks in forceful authoritative dictator style.
So the same could be said on how much you screwed up! D:< It's not that bad, really. Minor mistakes ahoy! (I do love how deep you delved into the setting to get even the clothes right!Also I'm sorry for not giving this game very much attention. :-[
That's okay. Look at how much I screwed up ;D It didn't deserve that much attention.
...You didn't mention codpieces in game, though I supposed that was implied. x3 ))
Post by: Vector on October 18, 2013, 12:46:18 am
There's also references to Harry Potter, Les Miserables, The Hunchback of Notre Dame, Rilke's poeticisms, Greek Mythology, Aristotle, the poetry of Pierre Gringoire, The Bible, old paintings, Russian music, etc. In general, when I make these games I just throw in whatever seems natural. There's loads and loads and loads of stuff referenced that I haven't teased out, because that would be ruining things =]
EDIT: I'll mention three, though, that were rather more googlable than others--Et in Arcadia Ego (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Et_in_Arcadia_ego), Death and the Maiden (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_and_the_Maiden_%28motif%29), and Semele (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semele#Seduction_by_Zeus_and_birth_of_Dionysus).
Post by: notquitethere on October 18, 2013, 02:11:58 am
Post by: Leafsnail on October 18, 2013, 05:54:03 am
Also I guess my original colour theory was right, probably should have stuck with that.
Post by: Vector on October 18, 2013, 10:36:08 am
I guess I was worried about other people have bespoke wincons that revolved around murdering me, which didn't seem totally out of the question.
No worries. It was that kind of game, and I hear you--next time, no survivors :3
What was Jim's role a reference to?
"Mother Death" I invented myself out of whole cloth about a decade ago.
However, the original role PM is my own twist on Sleeping Beauty (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Sleeping_Beauty_%28ballet%29), written with a mind of recalling the opening paragraph of A Tale of Two Cities (http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/A_Tale_of_Two_Cities#Chapter_I_-_The_Period), but with superficial mentions to this line from Hamlet: "O God, I could be bounded in a nutshell and count myself a king of infinite space, were it not that I have bad dreams."
Post by: Vector on October 18, 2013, 09:55:17 pm