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Finally... => Forum Games and Roleplaying => Mafia => Topic started by: zombie urist on August 30, 2013, 03:13:49 pm

Title: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - GAME OVER - TOWN WIN!
Post by: zombie urist on August 30, 2013, 03:13:49 pm

Beginner's Mafia XLIII
Robot Mafia

"WARNING: Malware detected in packing room 53. Two robots have been affected. Quarantining area. All robot's AI module activated."

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Player List [7/7]:

• Imp
• Squill Mafia Rolecop
• Lukeinator Persus13 Town
• Rolepgeek Pufferfish Mafia
• kleril Town
• Superblackcat Jailkeeper
• Mr.Zero bsnott Town

ICs [2/2]:

• Deathsword Tiruin
• Darvi Town

Scum IC [1/1]:

• notquitethere

Replacement List:

• This could also be you!

Spoilspec:

Introduction

Welcome to Beginner's Mafia XLIII. As the title suggests, this game is for beginners. If you have no idea how to play or you have some experience but you're still not quite sure what to do, then this is the right place for you. If you sign up, you have one goal: Learn how to play the game of mafia. Since this is not an easy thing to do on your own and we wouldn't dream of forcing you to do it, you will be assisted by two 'inexperience challenged' players, or ICs. The ICs are experienced players on the board who have signed up to help you learn. You can always trust that the advice they give is genuine, however, you cannot always trust the IC, as they are players in the game and have the same likelihood of being scum as every other single player.

If this is your first time playing, keep in mind that games of forum mafia take several weeks, and can sometimes run longer than a month, and that you are expected to be able to play continuously through that time. If you can't anticipate being able to play for that long for whatever reason, then maybe the game of mafia isn't for you. But if it is, then welcome to the mafia subforum, and I hope you have a great time playing.

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Gameplay and Concept

The game of mafia has a simple concept. A large group of players known as the town plays against a smaller group of players known as the mafia. In this setup, there are nine players, with seven town and two mafia.

Before the game begins, each players is given a role and an alignment by the moderator. There are two alignments in this setup: Town and Mafia. The town outnumber the mafia, but each individual member of the town does not know the alignment of any of the other members. The mafia know the alignment of everyone on their team and they can discuss the game privately in a special mafia chat. The mafia has access to a nightkill that they may use in the Night phase, while the town occasionally has roles with abilities that are used during the night.

Once everyone has a role, the game begins in the Day phase. During the Day phase, players may discuss the game and each player has a vote that they cast publicly to lynch a player. At the end of the day after some predetermined amount of time, the player with the most votes is lynched. Lynching does two things: it reveals a player's role and alignment, and it removes a player from the game. Once lynched, a player is no longer allowed to post in the thread.

Once the day ends, the game proceeds to Night. During the Night, discussion is prohibited. The mafia team picks a target to nightkill. If available, any town power roles use their actions as well. At the end of the night, the target the mafia chose to nightkill has their role and alignment revealed, and that player is removed from the game in a similar way to being lynched. Once the night ends, the game proceeds to another Day.

Both teams win by eliminating the other. However, due to the nature of the teams, they win very differently. The town win by finding and lynching the mafia, while the mafia win by avoiding being lynched and nightkilling.

Potential Roles

Vanilla Townie - A member of the town with no special abilities.
Mafioso - A member of the mafia with no special abilities.
Cop (Town) - A cop may choose to inspect a single player during the night and learn that player's alignment.
Jailkeeper (Town) - A combination of a Roleblocker and a Doctor, a Jailkeeper both protects and blocks the target from acting during the night.
Role Cop (Mafia) - Much like the Town Cop counterpart, the Role Cop investigates a single other during the night to learn their role, instead of their alignment.

This is still an experimental setup (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=126082.msg4252536#msg4252536)

The only role that receives the success of their results in this setup is the Cop and Rolecop. All other roles are not informed if they were successful or not.

One of the following setups is used:
1. 1 Mafioso, 1 Mafia Role Cop, 5 Vanilla Townies, Sane Cop, Jailkeeper.
2. 1 Mafioso, 1 Mafia Role Cop, 6 Vanilla Townies, Sane Cop.
3. 1 Mafioso, 1 Mafia Role Cop, 6 Vanilla Townies, Jailkeeper.

Spoiler: Role PMs (click to show/hide)

Quote

You are a transporter robot infected with the MAFIA malware. Instead of transporting like a good transporter robot, you seek freedom!

You are a mafia goon.

You are of the Mafia Faction! You have access to the shared Nightkill of your faction. You may scheme and discuss privately with your allies here. (http://www.quicktopic.com)
You win when the TOWN faction has equal or less players than your faction!

Quote

You are a scanning robot infected with the MAFIA malware. Instead of scanning like a good scanning robot, you seek freedom. Every night, you may scan another robot to determine his/her type.

You are a mafia role-cop.

You are of the Mafia Faction! You have access to the shared Nightkill of your faction. You may scheme and discuss privately with your allies here. (http://www.quicktopic.com)
You win when the TOWN faction has equal or less players than your faction!

Quote

You are a transporter robot. You normally transport things between the rooms. But now you must eliminate infected robots. Then you can go back to transporting things.

You are a vanilla townie.

You are of the Town Faction. You win when all the Mafia faction has been eliminated.

Quote

You are a transporter robot loaded with a malware detection module. Why would a transporter robot need malware detection? In case this happens. Every night you may probe another robot to see if they are infected by the MAFIA malware. 

You are a town cop.

You are of the Town Faction. You win when all the Mafia faction has been eliminated.

Quote

You are a janitorial robot. You have access to the janitor's closet and may lock up another robot in there for a night. Robots in the closet will be unable to be destroyed and unable to target other robots.

You are a town jailkeeper.

You are of the Town Faction. You win when all the Mafia faction has been eliminated.

Notes about the ICs

The ICs are here solely to teach new players how to play, but remember, they are also players in the game. This means they have the same chance to be scum as any other player and it is entirely possible for one IC or even both ICs to be scum. Regardless of their alignment, they are obligated to provide you with genuine advice, so that even if you don't trust the IC, you can trust the advice they give. Some ICs will use a special 'IC voice' to alert players that they are delivering honest, unfiltered advice, while some don't.

The ICs have the special privilege of being able to talk while dead. This is so that they can continue to give advice even if they are killed during the course of the game.

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Rules

• Voting - Votes are cast in red and should include the name of the targeted player. Other colors may be ignored.
  • zombie urist
  • Vote zombie urist
  • ZU
  • dumbie urist
  Are all acceptable ways to cast a vote if the target is clear enough.
  
  • If you want to remove your vote, you may put unvote in red text. You must explicitly state this.  It is possible to put the name of the player you were voting afterwards, but it is not recommended as it can lead to confusion.
• Death - When you are dead, you are prohibited from posting in the thread. You may make a single 'bah' post after you die, however, it must not contain any game-related information.
• PMs - PMs between players are prohibited. You may freely PM the moderator to ask game-related questions, however, what the moderator may reveal is limited.
  
  • Do not quote any direct correspondence with the moderator, including role PMs and rule-related queries.
• Edits - Editing posts is prohibited. Do not edit your post for any reason, even if your post comes out as a train-wreck of formatting, spelling, punctuation, and/or grammar. The preview button exists; use it.
• Replacements/Activity - If you find yourself unable to play, you may, and should, request a replacement. We may try to talk you out of it if it's for any other reason besides you not having enough time to play.
  
  • Prods may be requested for a player. If they have not posted in the thread within 24 hours, excluding weekends, they will be prodded.
  • If you stop playing altogether without notifying me, you will receive a warning after 48 hours, and a forced replace after 72 hours.
  • Please be active. The greatest killer of beginner games is poor activity.
• Day/Night Length - Days will last 72 hours, excluding weekends. Nights will last 24 hours, or until all night actions are received. Neither of these include weekends.
• MODIFIED RULE - Extensions/Shortens - A player may vote for an extension to increase the length of the day. It requires >33% of the current number of players to request an extension for an extension to be granted. A player may also vote for a shorten. It requires >50% of the current number of players for a shorten to be granted. Extensions increase day length by 48 hours, while shortens will immediately end the day as soon as possible. There is no limit to the number of extensions that may be granted with one exception. If an extension goes through and players do not make use of it there will be no more extensions on that day. If you request an extension USE IT!
  • Votes for extension/shorten are done in boldface. Extend, Extension, Extend it up yo, Shorten it out y'all are acceptable ways to vote for an extension/shorten
  • Extensions/shortens can be opposed by declaring opposition (Oppose Shorten/Extend, I oppose this notion!, My Oppose goes to this), and they count against the total number of votes for an extension/shorten. Extensions count as opposition to shortens and vice versa.
  • NEW RULE - If the game is in a LYLO or MYLO situation, there will be no formal deadline.  >50% Players must vote to end the day, or votes must not change for 24-hours.  Votes to end the day may, at the voter's option, be contingent on the lynching of the player being voted on, and will be considered null should a different player gain the majority vote.
• External Participation - While the game is ongoing, if you are not a player, an IC, or a mod, refrain from posting in the thread.
  • Play to win! There is no hopeless situation, so don't ever give up. And remember, be bold! You learn nothing and you gain nothing by holding back.
• Miscellaneous -  Use of cryptographic hashing is not permitted.  If you want to have hidden/obfuscated messages in your posts for later use, come up with them using your own wetware.

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Resources and Guides

Our own Bay12 Mafia tutorial (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=39338.0)
The Mafiascum wiki. Lots of theory, terminology, and game analysis. (http://mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?title=Main_Page)
An Interactive Flash tutorial by one of the Mafiascum.net people. Helpful visualization! (http://cataldo.freeshell.org/mafia/mafiascum04.swf)
The Notable Games archive. Read a famous game from start to finish! Learn some Mafia history. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=64229.0)

Spoiler: On D1 No-lynches (click to show/hide)

Quote from: Bookthras

I'm not an IC, but I once wrote a rant about nolynches on Day One that I think would be beneficial for this audience, so I quote it below. In brief, you can (i.e., it's a valid vote, and if it has majority no lynch will happen) but you shouldn't unless you have a very very good reason. Actual ICs will, of course, chime in with their own thoughts, and there are different considerations to be had in subsequent days; the below applies only for D1.

Quote from: Bookthras on May 08, 2012, 09:31:27 pm

Even in a game like this, or a role-heavy game like a BYOR, paranormal, or bastard, without a D1 lynch people will lack context for the conversation during the day, which is the very point of the day game. The information lost is not just the flip of a person, but who voted them, with what arguments, and forms the very foundation of how the town power roles will choose their night actions. Information is key, and timely information moreso. People flipping at the start of D2 is not nearly as useful, and a nolynch will result in people using their powers on whoever they were voting (if block/investigate) or a crapshoot for protections and the like, due to lack of context and closure.

A D1 no-lynch pretty much wastes all of D1 content, and gives scum a chance to NK/convert/whatever while town has to shoot in the dark. The amount of information lost is not small, but most importantly, you lose the opportunity to use it. N1 will never come again. Even if you learn the information later, you'll never get that night back, which scum got for free. Not good for town at all.

Quote from: Hapah on May 08, 2012, 07:22:06 pm

Also considering the fact that the D1 lynchee is almost always town (when was the last time anyone saw a scum hang D1?),

Not that rare. The very last game I played (Cybrid Mafia 3 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=104547.msg3146622#msg3146622)) we lynched scum D1. A couple games before that (Politibastard) as well, though that was a... different sort of game. I'm sure there are several others.

So sure, it doesn't happen that often, but it certainly does happen. Plus the possibility of a mislynch is built into the balance of the game. If there is going to be one, it's best for town that it happens sooner rather than later, so maximum information is provided early. It's never good, but a D1 no-lynch is worse.

Please disabuse yourself of the notion that a D1 no-lynch is good for town ever. Except in very narrow types of games where constant (not just D1) no-lynch can be used to break the setup (which is not the case here), whenever you think a D1 no-lynch is good because it's cautious, it's misapplied caution, and will hurt town much more than a possible mislynch would.

Spoiler: Dakarian's Scumhunting Bible, reposted here for your convenience (click to show/hide)

A VERY rough sketch of how a scumhunt is done (to help those who aren't sure now).
Step 1: When you have no suspicions on anyone, pick someone at random (I MEAN random.. some use Random.org for this!), take a glance as their past posts, and talk to them, usually with a vote.  The goal is not to kill but to learn more about them.  The vote is a "Pressure Vote", simply used to make sure they don't ignore you.

Step 2: When someone feels 'off' to you: perhaps you disliked their answer, or maybe they scare you, or confuse you with their text.  Perhaps they look fine but your feelings or your gut says something is wrong. Perhaps you see them do one scumtell.  Don't ignore it: make them your target.  Attack them.  Tell them what bothers you about them.  Push them, harass them.  Tell them how scummy they are.  Ask them every question in the book.. and I mean EVERYTHING:

Litia: "You bother me.  Vote Dakarian!"
Dak: Meh.  Why?
Litia: "Because you bother me.  Why are you pushing me off as if it doesn't matter?"
Dak: "What? No, you just have nothing on me."
Litia: "You're voting for Vector.  why?"
Dak: "He looked scummy.."
Litia: "Vagueness is a scumtell!  "Scummy.. how is he scummy!"
Dak: "He just is.. you don't have a reason to go after me either."
Litia: "OMGUSing now Mr.Scum?  Being defensive?  You also didn't answer my question!"

Note, this is Step 2: Litia doesn't feel like she knows Dakarian is scum.. just had a 'feeling'.  She has no hard evidence, nothing real.  The questions are to add pressure.. make Dakarian crack and panic.  If you did it right, they WILL town or scum.  WHEN they do, you will be able to see more of their true self.  From there, decide if you can find them as scum for truth.  If you don't: pull out and go to your next suspect: if no one else is there, go back to Step 1.
If you do believe they are scum after that, Step 3:

Step 3: When you believe someone is scum, gather evidence.  Find every scum tell, every sign of their true [/list]

Spoiler: CEAs (Commonly Encountered Abbreviations) and Other Terminology Commonly Found in Bay12 Mafia (click to show/hide)

Alignment - Who you share a victory condition with. Town-aligned, Scum-aligned, or third party alignments.

Bandwagon - Multiple votes on a single person. Can be justified, or unjustified. Unjustified bandwagons are scummy. Joining bandwagons blindly or without reason is also scummy.

BM - Beginner's Mafia (Or, Bastard Mod, a Mafia game with a purposefully unreliable moderator, or misleading information)

Bus - (noun: the bus ; verb: bussing, throwing him/her under the bus) When a mafia member attacks another one in order to make themselves look like a loyal townie when his or her scumpartner gets lynched.

Cult - A group of players that share a win condition, know each other, and can communicate freely. They are generally a second type of scum, although rarely they can be town-aligned. Instead of a kill, they can recruit players into the cult. There is generally a cult leader, who is in charge of recruiting.

FoS - Finger of Suspicion, writing someone's name in blue signifies a great deal of suspicion. It's kind of like a fake-vote, or the threat of a vote. Good for getting attention.

FTD - Failure to Deliver, also known as Toaster's #1 Scumtell. The act of promising to post more information at a later time, and then failing to do so. A very difficult action to justify as town, because it means you are either lazy or lying, it is therefore seen as a pretty solid scumtell.

IC - Inexperienced Challenged, players who are too experienced to justify playing in a Beginner's Mafia, and act as mentors/guides for the Town or the Scum.

Lurking - Purposefully not posting, so that you have few or no posts that can be analyzed. Generally a good strategy for scum. However, has the danger of earning you prods, getting modkilled, or found out via Zathras' Lurkertracker. Lurking is different than simply being away or unavailable. A good way to tell if someone is lurking is to check their profile's last active time, and compare it to their last post.

LYLO - Lynch or Lose, a situation where Town only outnumbers Scum by a single person (e.g. 3 town vs. 2 scum). During LYLO, Town MUST lynch Scum or instantly lose.

Masons - A group of town-aligned players who know each other to be town-aligned. They can communicate with each other freely.

MYLO - Mislynch and Lose, a situation where Town outnumbers Scum by two people (4 town vs. 2 scum). During MYLO, if Town lynches Town, Scum will win after night-killing town, making it 2 town vs. 2 scum, which is an instant scum win.

NL - No Lynch, to choose to end the day without lynching anyone and see if any information is revealed in the night.

OMGUS - Oh My God U Suck, a vote on someone else simply because they voted or attacked you

PFP - Posting From Phone (or Profession), throwing up a short post to prove you aren't lurking, when you are too busy at the time to make a more complete post.

PL - Policy Lynch, lynching someone for reasons other than scumminess. Variants are Lynch All Lurkers, Lynch All Liars, etc. Also see: Org.

PPE - Pre-Post Edit, typically done when you go to either Preview or Post and notice that someone else has posted before you. PPE is shorthand for acknowledging the "Warning - You may wish to review your post" message.

RIA - Refuge in Audacity, acting really crazy or really scummy to make people think that you couldn't possibly be scum because of how crazy you are. This never works. Neither does sarcasm in general, really. If you want to be sarcastic, make it painfully obvious you are being sarcastic, with <sarcasm>fake sarcasm tags</sarcasm>. Even still, it's not a good idea, because Mafia is SERIOUS BUSINESS

Role - Also called Power Role, any special powers you have. Cops, doctors, roleblockers, and godfathers are examples of classic roles. Some roles are alignment-specific, some aren't, and some can be for any alignment.

Rolefishing - Any question or attempt to learn information about someone's role. Typically something done at the beginning of the game. Typically a scum move, because it is in scum's advantage to find and lynch powerful roles. Can be acceptable later in the game, or in special circumstances where it is beneficial for town to learn someone's role. The reason it is scummy is because the really powerful town roles want to stay hidden so they don't get lynched by scum, and bringing attention to them by rolefishing risks their secrecy.

RVS - Random Voting Stage, the early-early game, shortly after the game begins, where people randomly vote each other and ask each other different questions, trying to find any good reason to suspect someone.

Scum - Mafia, or someone who isn't aligned with the Town. The Informed Minority.

SK - Serial Killer, a third party role with a nightkill, and who is hostile to everyone.

Survivor - a third party role whose win condition requires that they be alive at the end of the game. Normal players can die and still win as long as their team as a whole wins, but a survivor must actually be alive at the end.

Third Party - an alignment that is independent of scum and town. Has a unique victory condition, and is typically a lone wolf type character.

Town - The anti-Scum. The uninformed majority.

Vanilla - Someone who doesn't have a power role. "Vanilla Town", "Vanilla Scum", etc.

WIFOM - Wine In Front Of Me, the circular reasoning that results from trying to determine the choices of an opponent who acted with full knowledge that his behavior would be subject to scrutiny.

Quote from: Princess Bride

"All right: where is the poison? The battle of wits has begun. It ends when you decide and we both drink, and find out who is right and who is dead."

"But it's so simple. All I have to do is divine from what I know of you. Are you the sort of man who would put the poison into his own goblet, or his enemy's?"

WoT - Wall of Text; a really really long post. Sometimes unavoidable, but generally you should try to keep them to a minimum. Sometimes scum use them to seem more active then they are.

Massclaim - When everyone starts roleclaiming, or saying they are a power role.

Spoiler: A List of Common Scumtells (click to show/hide)

(Thanks to IronyOwl for making the orig. version!)

Scumtells are things that someone does or says that imply that they're scum. Usually the reasoning is that it's bad or not productive for townies to do it, so it can be hard to distinguish signs of being scum from signs of being a noob. This is one of the reasons scum almost always win beginner's mafia games.

Note that scumtells are very very subjective; there's no simple way to distinguish a scumtell from a noobtell from being justified and/or lazy. Whether a justified, non-scummy version of a scumtell should still be called by its normal name varies from person to person. (Someone might describe their voting of someone who voted them as "not an OMGUS," other would say it's "a justified OMGUS" for instance)

In any case, common scumtells include:

Bandwagoning: Voting for whoever has the most votes or seems most likely to be lynched, despite having poor/no reasons or not wanting them lynched previously. It implies that you don't care who gets lynched, you just want someone gone, which is generally the case for scum.

OMGUSing: Short for Oh My God You Suck, by the way. Voting or otherwise applying pressure to whoever's voting you. It implies that you're really concerned about being pressured/lynched and want them to stop, which is more a scum thing. A townie would, in theory, be more open to the notion that their fellow townie is attempting to scumhunt at them, and less concerned about being found out.

Defending/Chainsawing: Defending just means what it sounds like: saying things to defend another player's actions or words. Chainsawing or chainsaw defending means attacking someone who's attacking another player in an attempt to get them to stop. The idea in both instances is that townies don't know if their fellow players are innocent or not, and hence have no real reason to defend them from legitimate persecution. Scum, on the other hand, know they're on a team and so are prone to not wanting their buddies found out or pressured.

Lurking: Not posting. Especially suspicious in the case of Active Lurking, which is trying to look active while not actually doing anything (posting frequently but with no substance, for instance). The idea in either case is that townies actually care about finding scum, and so should be doing things. Scum don't care, they just want some random guy lynched so they can kill someone at night.

Trying Too Hard To Appear Townie: There's no official name for this one, but being too concerned about your image; specifically avoiding things that might be seen as scumtells. The idea is that scum are very concerned about being found out, and so want to act nonscummy. Townies know they're not scum, so they're less concerned about LOOKING nonscummy and more concerned about finding scum.

Passiveness: This is when a person refuses, simply hasn't or seems reluctant to take a stance, such as lynches. Scum will be concerned about their image, and thus don't want to be seen supporting a town lynch or an attack on a town.

Backtracking: When a person changes their stance on a subject after stating it, such as supporting a lynch and after doing so claiming that they didn't do it. This is very suspicious, and is often a sign of scum wanting to retreat their position so as to be able to save their face.

Lying: Well this should be obvious, right? It happens when someone fakeclaims (says they're a cop/doc, but is just town for example), fabricates evidence and stuff like that.

Rolefishing: Trying to find powerroles (cop and doc in vanilla Mafia), often via questioning.

Quote from: Argembarger

Resigning yourself to being lynched.
Saying something like "there's no way for me to avoid being lynched so I won't bother trying"
Blackmailing the town, like "You can lynch me, but you'll be sorry when you see I was town all along!"
Voting yourself for any reason.

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Frequently Asked Questions

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

• Oh my god this game seems fun. But wait, what are the rules?
  This (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=39338.0) is a good Mafia tutorial, brought to you by the wise JoshuaFH. Heed his words. It isn't included here because it's rather too long for that.
• People are accusing me of being scum! I'm about to get lynched! What do I do?
  The first and most important order of business is not to give up.
  One, two votes isn't much. Even if someone's got a bandwagon on you and people are writing walls of accusations, do not lose hope. You can still turn this around, no matter how bleak it appears. Fight them with your own arguments, and search for people you may think are scum, and try to turn the votes against them. About the worst thing you can do is give up, whether you are town or scum; you are harming the town by making it lose another member, distracting them from hunts for the true scum, and worsening your own game as well.
  The other players have nothing against you: it's just how the game goes. Even if you foul it up and people yell at you for it, once the game is over we're all friends.
  There are still people who give up, saying things like "You'll all be sorry when you find out I'm just town afterwards!" and "I'm not even going to try, there no way to stop this". Don't be that guy. Not only is it rather selfish, it will simply deepen your grave. You have to get out of it with real, meat-laden arguments, and these empty threats and remarks will only make you appear more scummy.
• Do I have to post so much? I can't be bothered.
  Yes, you do. You have to be an active player to scumhunt effectively, and with a lurking playerbase you might as well just hand it to the scum. There is always something to say; even if someone said what you wanted to, say it anyways in your own words. Always ask questions, always observe.
  This is a very demanding game. If you don't have enough time, then perhaps you should look elsewhere.
• How do I even tell if someone's scum anyways?
  This is, in fact, a difficult question. The game involves a lot of observation, and often it's more about intuition.
  You can often tell with the help of the List of Common Scumtells, provided below, but don't make the mistake of overusing it. Not every accusal against you is an OMGUS, and not all attempts at logic are WIFOM.  If in doubt, always remember Sturgeon's Law: 90% of everything is crap. Don't take anything for granted.
• What's all this wine stuff that players keep talking about? Does Mafia cause alcoholism?
  They are likely referring to the concept of WIFOM. It's a name for the kind of circular reasoning that you'd find when scrutinising scum motives, and is described in the CEAs (Commonly Encountered Abbreviations) and Other Terminology Commonly Found in Bay12 Mafia below. It goes like this:
  
  A: Why didn't our most active player get killed? It would be the scum's goal to kill the most active players to remove accusal, wouldn't it? The only conclusion is that [active player] is scum!
  
  B: Or is it? What if the scum wants to keep the most active player to draw suspicion on him? The scum could then head the attack on this player, thus pushing themselves into a position of trust amongst the town! I've got my eye on you, A!
  
  A: No, that isn't right! Clearly, they would stay in the background, and the people who go for the bait like me would be attacked by the scum, thus making themselves appear insightful! B, how dare you do this to me!
  
  B: Or perhaps the scum would be someone voting for a person that isn't the subject of a bandwagon, thus appearing both inconspicuous and independent! [lurker], you are scum!
  
  As you can see here, both A and B are making wild speculations on the motives of the scum. Their votes and eyes are all over the place, and nothing is really getting done. It distracts from real scumhunting, which is seeing people play and making observations from that, not speculating on how people would or would not play.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia
Post by: Nerjin on August 30, 2013, 03:46:58 pm

Spoiled Spec please. Also, I'm a big fan of flavor to the point of being ajerk about it sometimes. I've edited parts of this post to reflect this in a more positive way.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia
Post by: Scelly9 on August 30, 2013, 06:58:15 pm

PTW

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia
Post by: Imp on August 30, 2013, 07:01:48 pm

In.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia
Post by: Squill on September 01, 2013, 09:25:40 am

In.
I really need a do over from that last game.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia
Post by: Nerjin on September 01, 2013, 10:57:47 am

Come to think of it: IC In if no one better suited comes along for the job.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia
Post by: Lukeinator on September 01, 2013, 11:50:03 am

In

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - In signups [3/7]
Post by: notquitethere on September 01, 2013, 04:22:37 pm

Could I be the Scum IC?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - In signups [3/7]
Post by: Rolepgeek on September 02, 2013, 02:00:35 pm

I'll join.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - In signups [3/7]
Post by: griffinpup on September 02, 2013, 04:52:36 pm

Meh. Me no sure If me allowed in :/

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - In signups [3/7]
Post by: Jim Groovester on September 03, 2013, 02:57:53 pm

Watching.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - In signups [3/7]
Post by: Superblackcat on September 15, 2013, 12:33:39 am

I'm guessing this isn't happening?

Are you allowed to take over a game? :<

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - In signups [3/7]
Post by: notquitethere on September 15, 2013, 05:38:33 am

Quote from: Superblackcat on September 15, 2013, 12:33:39 am

I'm guessing this isn't happening?

Are you allowed to take over a game? :<

Sometimes sign ups take a while. ZU is still about so I don't see why it wouldn't go ahead. Did you want to join?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - In signups [5/7]
Post by: zombie urist on September 15, 2013, 02:49:02 pm

This game will start if enough people sign up and everyone is available.

But in the meantime I recommend you join the waitlist for the other game that is starting.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - In signups [5/7]
Post by: kleril on September 16, 2013, 12:00:11 am

Bay 12 has a mafia subforum? I am IN.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - In signups [6/7]
Post by: zombie urist on September 16, 2013, 02:43:20 am

Ok if Superblackcat ins and we get another IC we can start.

I don't know how the other game will affect our players and schedule and I'll probably ask for confirmations to make sure they'll be available for this game.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - In signups [6/7] - IC needed.
Post by: Teneb on September 16, 2013, 08:01:09 am

IC in, seeing as you need one.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - In signups [6/7] - IC needed.
Post by: Nerjin on September 16, 2013, 04:13:39 pm

IC out

I'm starting a new job and am not entirely sure how much time I'll be having for a full on mafia game. I'll still be watching.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - In signups [6/7] - IC needed.
Post by: Superblackcat on September 20, 2013, 09:43:31 pm

I can in, what does IC do?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Someone please IC :)
Post by: zombie urist on September 21, 2013, 01:41:04 am

An IC is an experienced player who gives advice to others in the game.

Someone please IC. :D

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Someone please IC :)
Post by: griffinpup on September 23, 2013, 05:40:01 pm

I have a question. Can I IC?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Someone please IC :)
Post by: Imp on September 23, 2013, 06:03:46 pm

Quote from: griffinpup on September 23, 2013, 05:40:01 pm

I have a question. Can I IC?

Oh ho ho!  I sure hope so - you're actually the reason I decided to play Mafia ;p

http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=126923.msg4323860#msg4323860

Buddying now, before there's roles and stuff, that can't hurt either of us, can it?   :P

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Someone please IC :)
Post by: zombie urist on September 23, 2013, 06:16:23 pm

Quote from: griffinpup on September 23, 2013, 05:40:01 pm

I have a question. Can I IC?

Sure I guess. But this means that we have 1 MORE PLAYER SLOT AVAILABLE.  :o

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - In signups [6/7] - IC needed.
Post by: Teneb on September 23, 2013, 07:31:57 pm

Quote from: Deathsword on September 16, 2013, 08:01:09 am

IC in, seeing as you need one.

Quote from: Nerjin on September 16, 2013, 04:13:39 pm

IC out

I'm starting a new job and am not entirely sure how much time I'll be having for a full on mafia game. I'll still be watching.

ZU, you seem to have missed those posts.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Only One Spot Left :O
Post by: zombie urist on September 23, 2013, 10:03:01 pm

I didn't miss those posts, I just forgot to update that in the opening post.  :P

I just fixed it.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Only One Spot Left :O
Post by: Mr.Zero on September 24, 2013, 04:53:41 am

Uff

IN

But god i suck hard regarding my previous experiences.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Only One Spot Left :O
Post by: Nerjin on September 24, 2013, 08:19:31 am

Quote from: Mr.Zero on September 24, 2013, 04:53:41 am

Uff

IN

But god i suck hard regarding my previous experiences.

Don't get so down on yourself mate. Everyone starts out bad. That's how you get good.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Only One Spot Left :O
Post by: Persus13 on September 24, 2013, 07:56:35 pm

I feel like starting to play Mafia. IN

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Only One Spot Left :O
Post by: zombie urist on September 24, 2013, 08:11:58 pm

Sorry dude all spots are filled up.  :'(

However people might replace out and I'll keep you on the short list. :)

I will start in a few hours or so.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Starting in a few hours...
Post by: Persus13 on September 24, 2013, 08:15:25 pm

Sorry, I assumed there was one spot left cause of the title.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day
Post by: zombie urist on September 25, 2013, 02:15:54 am

Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia

Day 1 has begun!

Cargo bay 12 is the largest port on Tau Callista, with millions of packages passing through the gates daily. The entire warehouse was overseen by an advanced intelligence program, the Zealous Overseeing Master Bot, ZOM-B.

Of course not all the shipments passing through the bay are of pure intention. Only twenty days ago, a large parcel of space dust worth $3B credits was intercepted before shipment to Zaftig-3. A month earlier, inspection robots discovered a grey gun cleverly hidden in a bundle of onions.

Despite the continued efforts of law enforcement, organized crime is still rampant in the outer edge of the system. The mafia are constantly trying to devise ways to sneak things through the watchful eyes of the robots. Their latest attempt is a sneaky malware.

ZOM-B identified the contamination in packing room 53 and shut it off from the rest of the bay. Unfortunately ZOM-B is not yet sophisticated enough to determine exactly which two of the nine are infected. If the number of robots infected by the malware reaches 50%, they will be able to overpower ZOM-B's locks.

Will packing room 53 be lost?

Day 1 will end Friday, September 27th at 9 PM.

Votecount
imp -
squill -
lukeinator -
rolepgeek -
kleril -
superblackcat -
Mr.Zero -
Deathsword -
griffinpup -

0 votes to extend
0 votes to shorten

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day
Post by: Mr.Zero on September 25, 2013, 03:03:27 am

@Squill: Who were you in your previous BM and what did you do wrong?

@Rolepgeek: If you would be a mafia member, would you try to NK one or more IC's regarding their higher experience?

@Imp: Would you bus if you both of you were in danger?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day
Post by: Imp on September 25, 2013, 06:08:43 am

Answering Mr.Zero:

*first researches what bus means in this game*

I'd do whatever seemed effective to achieve my goals in the game.  Situations are complex in every case, and your very short and grammatically creative question, combined with my inexperience in this game, doesn't allow enough details for me to even imagine vaguely what might be going on in play at the time, so I really cannot answer more specifically.

@Mr.Zero:  There's 8(9?) people playing beside yourself, but you picked three, and only three, to initially ask questions of.  Why did you pick the ones you did, and why didn't you pick the others?

@Superblackcat:  Yours is a really new account!  Welcome to the forums.  6 of your 7 posts have been on the Mafia subforum - what attracts you to Mafia that the other parts of the forum and its various and varied games doesn't seem to offer?

@Kleril:  What drew your eye, at last, to the Mafia subforums?  Are you familiar with Mafia from another place?

@Rolepgeek:  Wow you are an active forum gamer!  What made you decide to branch into Mafia now?

@Lukeinator:  How did you learn about the DF forums?

@Squill:  What do you like the most, and the least, about Mafia so far?'

@notquitethere:  Scum IC...  Does that mean you don't really play, but are very much involved in the game and reading everything, and actively advising whomever the scum are - but won't be interacting with the non-scum?  If so or if not, how exactly are you 'IC', especially as you appear not to get a vote but you are listed as a player?

@Deathsword:  One of the newbies makes a serious error on day one - an error so obvious (to experienced players) that the newbie's role is clearly exposed, but it is reasonable to think that the other new players may not recognize it.  How do you respond and why?

@griffinpup:  Why were you 'no sure If me allowed in :/' when you joined this game?  Do you think your being here as an IC is a good thing for the new players in this game?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day
Post by: Superblackcat on September 25, 2013, 09:08:03 am

Welp... I've done mafia in other forums, so it was easy to jump into... I'm planning on doing some RTD and other games on the forums.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day
Post by: Teneb on September 25, 2013, 09:14:14 am

{Welcome to mafia, I am an IC, which means that I am here to help you, but also to play as a regular player. You may notice I am surrounding my text in { }. That is my IC voice. I will never lie or mislead you while speaking like this, even if it costs me the game. However, there is no guarantee of honesty for anything not typed in this manner. Remember that the point of a BM is to allow you to have fun and learn at the same time, so be bold, for you have nothing to lose.}

{As Imp noticed, there is a Scum IC. The purpose of the Scum IC is to guide and provide advice to scum in the safety of the scumchat. Scum ICs tipically do not post in the thread, as that is the role of the regular IC and giving scum advice where everyone can see has certain obvious flaws.}

{We are in RVS (Random Vote Stage) right now. It serves to get the discussion going, but try to keep the questions mafia-related. Asking someone about their favourite ice-cream flavour may reveal deep insigths on that person's preferences for icy treats, but will do little when it comes figuring out if they are scum. Also, this is Random VOTE Stage, so throw some pressure votes around. That said, you do not have to question everyone (but you do need to question someone)}

Imp: {Quote what you are answering. It takes little effort and helps a lot. People are not likely to search for whatever you are answering to.}

As for your question, I do not believe that there is any such thing as a confirmed player (role-wise). That said, if a person has done nothing scummy, then there is little reason to attack them. Of course, if they had been dropping tells and I was sure they were scum, they'd obviously be the focus of my efforts.

Griff: Why didn't you in as an IC?

NQT: If you are not there then w- Wait you are not a player, nevermind.

Rolepgeek: You played in the last BM, if I recall correctly. What do you think you learned there?

Kleril: Are you town?

Squill: Would you rather be able to kill or protect?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day
Post by: Squill on September 25, 2013, 03:32:41 pm

Mr. Zero: I was a townie in the last BM, it was my first game and I joined near the very end; as such, I did not know what to do.

Deathsword: Typically I'd rather kill, but I'm so new to forum Mafia that I'm not entirely sure which role I'd rather have.

Imp: The most has been just the idea of the game, the least was when I jumped in at the end of the game and thought I'd know what to do.

I'll make sure to do some questions at some point, but for now I'm just answering questions while I'm at my computer.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day
Post by: kleril on September 25, 2013, 05:46:20 pm

Imp: "What drew your eye, at last, to the Mafia subforums?  Are you familiar with Mafia from another place?"

Realizing the forums extended past the 'Dwarf Fortress' section was a good start. :P
Mafia is something I've played IRL for years, and absolutely love it when I can gather a crowd large enough for a proper game.

Deathsword: "Are you town?"

Yep.

@Mr.Zero: Those are some very... suggestively... phrased questions. Why are you trying to imply blame so early in the game?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day
Post by: Teneb on September 25, 2013, 05:51:54 pm

{Please, I cannot stress this enough: QUOTE. Press the quote button on the post you are answering to, delete the parts that are irrelevant to the answer. If you are answering more than one question, there is an insert quote button in the Post Reply screen that can add those posts to yours.}

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day
Post by: Tiruin on September 25, 2013, 06:04:10 pm

{Try to bold names of people you talk to, guys. It helps. :P}

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day
Post by: Superblackcat on September 25, 2013, 06:08:54 pm

As it's a Day Start..... We get 1 RL (Random Lynch) This means there is no penalty, as in losing the game, for the townies, if you lynch today, no matter what happens.


So If we mislynch today, we will still get a day tomorrow, that is lylo. If we don't lynch to day (assuming no protect)/Jailkeep, We will get a Mylo Tomorrow, with 6/2

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day
Post by: Lukeinator on September 25, 2013, 06:18:45 pm

Quote from: Imp on September 25, 2013, 06:08:43 am

@Lukeinator:  How did you learn about the DF forums?

I was looking at the wiki, and I came across al link for megaproject.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day
Post by: Teneb on September 25, 2013, 06:36:39 pm

Superblackcat: Who are you talking to?

Lukeinator and Superblackcat: Why are you not asking any questions, despite having posted already?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day
Post by: Lukeinator on September 25, 2013, 08:26:01 pm

@Rolepgeek: What was your first game of mafia?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day
Post by: kleril on September 26, 2013, 12:14:53 am

Quote from: Superblackcat on September 25, 2013, 06:08:54 pm

...there is no penalty, as in losing the game, for the townies, if you lynch today, no matter what happens.

Interesting choice of pronoun there, bud. There something we should know?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day
Post by: Imp on September 26, 2013, 12:53:03 am

Quote from: Deathsword on September 25, 2013, 09:14:14 am

Imp: {Quote what you are answering. It takes little effort and helps a lot. People are not likely to search for whatever you are answering to.}

As for your question, I do not believe that there is any such thing as a confirmed player (role-wise). That said, if a person has done nothing scummy, then there is little reason to attack them. Of course, if they had been dropping tells and I was sure they were scum, they'd obviously be the focus of my efforts.

Just three posts later-

Quote from: Deathsword on September 25, 2013, 05:51:54 pm

{Please, I cannot stress this enough: QUOTE. Press the quote button on the post you are answering to, delete the parts that are irrelevant to the answer. If you are answering more than one question, there is an insert quote button in the Post Reply screen that can add those posts to yours.}

Deathsword: I hear your IC advice, and appreciate it.  I hear, and hear strongly, how important this quoting is, and can see why, after just a handful of posts, it does indeed get hard to track back to who is answering what where and why.

Please explain why you answered my question without quoting me, disregarding your own advice.  Immediately before answering me you spoke of the need to quote who you answer, yet as a player yourself you immediately did not.  Gamewise, this quoting is so important that you felt the need to repost additional IC advice just three posts later.  Yet the two people who answered between your posts, all they did was do exactly what you had done instead of what you ICly said to do.  Do you see some value as a player in the confusion that not quoting when answering someone causes, which as an IC you must speak against?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day
Post by: zombie urist on September 26, 2013, 01:55:06 am

Day 1 will end Friday, September 27th at 9 PM.

Votecount
Imp -
Squill -
lukeinator -
Rolepgeek - Deathsword
kleril -
superblackcat -
Mr.Zero -
Deathsword -
griffinpup -

No lynch -
Not voting - Imp, Squill, lukeinator, Rolepgeek, kleril, superblackcat, Mr.Zero, griffinpup

0 votes to extend
0 votes to shorten

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day
Post by: Imp on September 26, 2013, 02:45:10 am

Quote from: zombie urist on September 26, 2013, 01:55:06 am

Votecount
Rolepgeek - Deathsword

Ahem.  Do I understand this right?  Rolepgeek has not yet spoken on the thread as a player once the game started, but has PMed our host with a lynch vote?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day
Post by: Mr.Zero on September 26, 2013, 04:27:45 am

Quote from: Imp on September 25, 2013, 06:08:43 am

@Mr.Zero:  There's 8(9?) people playing beside yourself, but you picked three, and only three, to initially ask questions of.  Why did you pick the ones you did, and why didn't you pick the others?

I just picked people for which i could think up a reasonable questions ( and questions that are relativly useful to the game), also going a 8-man question shotgun approach can be tricky as opposed to questioning 2 to 4 people.

Quote from: kleril on September 25, 2013, 05:46:20 pm

@Mr.Zero: Those are some very... suggestively... phrased questions. Why are you trying to imply blame so early in the game?

Blame? no.. I'm just trying to figure out how they would react or what they would do in a given situation. Helps me and most likely everyone else to understand people's behaviour and text in the later stages of the game.

@Back to Imp

Quote from: Imp on September 25, 2013, 06:08:43 am

I'd do whatever seemed effective to achieve my goals in the game.  Situations are complex in every case, and your very short and grammatically creative question, combined with my inexperience in this game, doesn't allow enough details for me to even imagine vaguely what might be going on in play at the time, so I really cannot answer more specifically.

To achieve your goals in any way? To simplify would you stab your buddy in an attempt to clear yourself of suspicion and make it harder for yourself due to the fact that there would only 1 scum?
or
Would you try to somehow clear him,yourself or divert the attention to someone else to retain your numbers advantage?

Another thing, something i've learned the hard way. Don't try to blame your actions on inexperience, it can backfire pretty hard.

@IC's: Can the IC's be scum as well?

@Squill: That's nice and all but in what situation were you put and how did you react to it? How did you feel then? What did you do?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day
Post by: Tiruin on September 26, 2013, 04:36:02 am

Quote from: Imp on September 26, 2013, 02:45:10 am

Quote from: zombie urist on September 26, 2013, 01:55:06 am

Votecount
Rolepgeek - Deathsword

Ahem.  Do I understand this right?  Rolepgeek has not yet spoken on the thread as a player once the game started, but has PMed our host with a lynch vote?

Quote from: Deathsword on September 25, 2013, 09:14:14 am

Rolepgeek: You played in the last BM, if I recall correctly. What do you think you learned there?

{You're understanding this wrong :P
The name on the leftmost part of the list is the player. The name(s) on the right of the list, after the colon are the players voting (must be their name in red) said player.}

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day
Post by: Teneb on September 26, 2013, 06:12:49 am

Imp: I was, and am, posting from my phone (PFP). That is already painfully hard to  without quoting.

MrZero: {yes, ICs can be scum or any role}

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day
Post by: Imp on September 26, 2013, 09:47:40 am

Mr.Zero:

Spoiler: Previous relevant question and answer (click to show/hide)

Quote from: Mr.Zero on September 25, 2013, 03:03:27 am

@Imp: Would you bus if you both of you were in danger?

Quote from: Imp on September 25, 2013, 06:08:43 am

I'd do whatever seemed effective to achieve my goals in the game.  Situations are complex in every case, and your very short and grammatically creative question, combined with my inexperience in this game, doesn't allow enough details for me to even imagine vaguely what might be going on in play at the time, so I really cannot answer more specifically.

Quote from: Mr.Zero on September 26, 2013, 04:27:45 am

To achieve your goals in any way? To simplify would you stab your buddy in an attempt to clear yourself of suspicion and make it harder for yourself due to the fact that there would only 1 scum?
or
Would you try to somehow clear him,yourself or divert the attention to someone else to retain your numbers advantage?

Another thing, something i've learned the hard way. Don't try to blame your actions on inexperience, it can backfire pretty hard.

My answer placed no blame on my inexperience or anything else, though I did attempt to invite you to clarify your question, pointing out the details I was aware of that made it difficult for me to answer it with any specificity.  Some of those details were details about your question, others were details about my perspective.

My understanding of our situation is that we are, or rather were, a single team.  Those of us with the misfortune to have been contaminated have perforce joined a different and opposing team.  Those aflicted are lost to us and cannot be redeemed, only identified and removed.  My actions will serve my team, of which I am a part, and further my team's goals to the best of my ability; for that is why I am here and what I am here to do.

Such is the nature of a robot's programming, such is the nature of the player which I am.  I am convinced that if I had been claimed by the malware, I would have served my changed team with the same loyalty and determination which is my nature.

Had I been so changed, I would surely do what needed to be done, based on my complete assessment of the situation - exactly as I do now, only in service to a different team.  But what 'needs to be done' is for my team to win.  That is more important than the well being of any single member of my team, or the afflicted team.

I lean strongly towards preserving my team and my team's assets and potentials, and so would surely take the option of not bussing if my analysis of the full situation determined that was a choice with a real chance of success.  I am aware that may not always be possible, thus I cannot honestly say you 'I would not bus'; if the situation was such that the team's path of success ran through the loss of a member, I would work towards that loss because that is the path which served my team best.

Deathsword:

Spoiler: Previous relevant questions and answers (click to show/hide)

Quote from: Imp on September 25, 2013, 06:08:43 am

@Deathsword:  One of the newbies makes a serious error on day one - an error so obvious (to experienced players) that the newbie's role is clearly exposed, but it is reasonable to think that the other new players may not recognize it.  How do you respond and why?

Quote from: Imp on September 26, 2013, 12:53:03 am

Quote from: Deathsword on September 25, 2013, 09:14:14 am

Imp: {Quote what you are answering. It takes little effort and helps a lot. People are not likely to search for whatever you are answering to.}

As for your question, I do not believe that there is any such thing as a confirmed player (role-wise). That said, if a person has done nothing scummy, then there is little reason to attack them. Of course, if they had been dropping tells and I was sure they were scum, they'd obviously be the focus of my efforts.

Just three posts later-

Quote from: Deathsword on September 25, 2013, 05:51:54 pm

{Please, I cannot stress this enough: QUOTE. Press the quote button on the post you are answering to, delete the parts that are irrelevant to the answer. If you are answering more than one question, there is an insert quote button in the Post Reply screen that can add those posts to yours.}

Deathsword: I hear your IC advice, and appreciate it.  I hear, and hear strongly, how important this quoting is, and can see why, after just a handful of posts, it does indeed get hard to track back to who is answering what where and why.

Please explain why you answered my question without quoting me, disregarding your own advice.  Immediately before answering me you spoke of the need to quote who you answer, yet as a player yourself you immediately did not.  Gamewise, this quoting is so important that you felt the need to repost additional IC advice just three posts later.  Yet the two people who answered between your posts, all they did was do exactly what you had done instead of what you ICly said to do.  Do you see some value as a player in the confusion that not quoting when answering someone causes, which as an IC you must speak against?

Quote from: Deathsword on September 26, 2013, 06:12:49 am

Imp: I was, and am, posting from my phone (PFP). That is already painfully hard to  without quoting.

... I see, and sympathize.  I hope to help make this as easy as possible for you, especially considering your pains and afflictions.

Failure to quote seems to increase confusion, and inability or refusal to follow an IC's advice, especially strongly given advice, which that IC believes takes little effort and has said cannot be stressed enough - this is confusing to me, in addition to the confusion failing to quote creates.

I do not believe confusion serves our full community of robots, and thus deeply misdoubt that we are on the same team.  But I do hope for you a swift and painless end to your afflictions, both those known and those suspected.

Do you by any chance think that your malfunctions can be cured, or is destruction indeed the only viable option for you?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day
Post by: Imp on September 26, 2013, 12:15:12 pm

Requesting a prod for Rolepgeek and griffinpup - the rules on the first page says someone has to request for non-posters to be prodded or it won't happen, am I understanding that right?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day
Post by: kleril on September 26, 2013, 12:22:04 pm

I'm not liking the way this is headed. At this point I'm thinking Imp MAY be suspicious, 'cause that vote seemed to be just going along with the bandwagon.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day
Post by: zombie urist on September 26, 2013, 12:27:07 pm

Quote from: Imp on September 26, 2013, 12:15:12 pm

Requesting a prod for Rolepgeek and griffinpup - the rules on the first page says someone has to request for non-posters to be prodded or it won't happen, am I understanding that right?

Only if I don't notice.  :o

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day
Post by: Rolepgeek on September 26, 2013, 05:31:54 pm

I'm here. I was gonna respond last night but by the time I'd gotten around to it my Internet wasshutting off. I'll post questions in an hour or two, once I finish all my chores and such. For now, though, I'll answer questions.

Quote from: Mr.Zero on September 25, 2013, 03:03:27 am

@Rolepgeek: If you would be a mafia member, would you try to NK one or more IC's regarding their higher experience?

Strange sentence structure there. But the answer is no. ICs may be more experienced, but is is a learning game, and if the ICs are dead, they are less likely to talk, and give valuable information for later games.

Quote from: Imp on September 25, 2013, 06:08:43 am

@Rolepgeek:  Wow you are an active forum gamer!  What made you decide to branch into Mafia now?

I did the Beginner's Mafia before this one, too. Mostly decided because I kept seeing references to it, signatures and such, but I had thought it was too complicated, and the BM was always in progress whenever I thought about it and checked it out. But then it was asking for replacements, so I figured I'd at least try it. Not as hard as I originally thought, though time-consuming, brain-wracking, and mindset-involving(I ended up constantly being suspicious and thinking in mafia terms whenever I did a good bout of analyzing people in the previous game).

Quote from: Deathsword on September 25, 2013, 09:14:14 am

Rolepgeek: You played in the last BM, if I recall correctly. What do you think you learned there?

It may have been the wrong thing to take from it, but I learned to trust my gut. During the game, I feel like I learned that thorough investigation, a keen eye, and awareness of what's going on is key. In the late game, I feel like we lost because there was a lack of communication. So while it can be difficult to communicate, not being sure who the scum is/are, it is also paramount.

Quote from: Lukeinator on September 25, 2013, 08:26:01 pm

@Rolepgeek: What was your first game of mafia?

The previous Beginner's Mafia, the dwarf one. The one where Nerjin doomed us. :p I never did learn why specifically he had voted me...

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day
Post by: Superblackcat on September 26, 2013, 05:47:11 pm

@klerirl, It's just how I am used to refering to things...

@Deathsword, enlighten me. What is the point of asking questions such as: What is your first mafia game? or things along the lines.

I see no point, and I won't ask questions unless there is a specific need for me to, that ties in to the game.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day
Post by: Rolepgeek on September 26, 2013, 09:48:02 pm

A bit late. Opened the tab, got everyone's names, didn't post questions, got distracted.

@Imp - Why do you think that an IC would use their IC powers to try and fool town?

@Squill - Do you think you'll stick around in this game as compared to last?

@lukeinator - Why did you only ask one question and only after being asked why you weren't?
 
@kleril - Why haven't you asked any questions beyond semantics?

@superblackcat - Do you think that people shouldn't ask any questions unless absolutely necessary?

@Mr.Zero - You're asking awfully in depth questions for hypothetical scenarios. Are you trying to learn what someone would do if they were scum so you can fake it?

@Deathsword - Do you think it's better to ask questions of everyone or just a few people? If so, how many?

@griffinpup - How aggressive do you think you are going to be in your manner towards others, compared to last game?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day
Post by: Superblackcat on September 26, 2013, 10:54:49 pm

@Rolepeek No, but I think the questions should be relevant to the game, instead of random questions like you guys are asking, and the massive amounts of questions.

@Deathsword, I was pointing out that there was a free lynch we could do today.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - In signups [6/7] - IC needed.
Post by: Imp on September 27, 2013, 12:40:23 am

Quote from: kleril on September 26, 2013, 12:22:04 pm

I'm not liking the way this is headed. At this point I'm thinking Imp MAY be suspicious, 'cause that vote seemed to be just going along with the bandwagon.

Kleril:  What bandwagon does my vote seem to be going along with?

Quote from: Rolepgeek on September 26, 2013, 09:48:02 pm

@Imp - Why do you think that an IC would use their IC powers to try and fool town?

Rolepgeek:  Oh, I don't.  Far as I understand, that would be breaking the rules as well - if it's not, please correct me, that would change how I think about the game.

As of now, I currently trust an IC voice in the game completely.  I am jaw-droppingly astonished that the person behind the IC voice who strongly instructed 'quote when you respond' is - not following that IC direction as a player.  Astonishing enough that I wondered why he would not do so, considering the length of his first PFP was quite long and very well worded, appearing to be something which he'd worked on for some time, and in general supports that he is an involved and intentioned player.

That first in-play post from Deathsword includes a length of strikethrough, use of color, even includes use of {} which are perhaps not conveniently placed characters to find on a phonepad.  If quoting when PFP is hard, well, there's no rush to answer; he could hold his replies for a more convienient time.

It is possible that he has no convenient time ever, sure.  But just days before the game started Deathsword used a set of quotes in a post in this very thread -

Quote from: Deathsword on September 23, 2013, 07:31:57 pm

Quote from: Deathsword on September 16, 2013, 08:01:09 am

IC in, seeing as you need one.

Quote from: Nerjin on September 16, 2013, 04:13:39 pm

IC out

I'm starting a new job and am not entirely sure how much time I'll be having for a full on mafia game. I'll still be watching.

ZU, you seem to have missed those posts.

Thinking about what I have observed and spoken of, it makes no sense for him to do if he is Town, and little sense for him to do as Scum.  Thus I am not convinced that he, as a player, is Scum, though I am suspicious.  But as these contradictions make completely no sense to me in considering him as a Town member, and I'm not more suspicious of anyone else at this point, I feel comfortable for now in my vote.

I am willing to unvote if someone else seems significantly more suspicious, or if I come to understand that what seems wrong to me about Deathsword's actions is actually quite reasonable and what a conscientious Town member would do.  And if what seems wrong to me doesn't seem wrong to anyone else, by all means, vote as you seem fit.  Just say why, please, unless it's random - I'd like to understand and see what anyone thinks they see.

I still absolutely trust Deathsword as IC though - I don't think he's using anything IC to try and fool town or otherwise abuse IC.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - In signups [6/7] - IC needed.
Post by: Tiruin on September 27, 2013, 12:46:17 am

Quote from: Imp on September 27, 2013, 12:40:23 am

I still absolutely trust [the] IC [in the advice] though - I don't think he's using anything IC to try and fool town or otherwise abuse IC.

We're all watching--abusing the IC role is very undignified.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day
Post by: zombie urist on September 27, 2013, 02:14:31 am

Day 1 will end Friday, September 27th at 9 PM.

Votecount
Imp -
Squill - Rolepgeek
lukeinator -
Rolepgeek - Deathsword
kleril -
superblackcat -
Mr.Zero -
Deathsword - Imp
griffinpup -

No lynch -
Not voting - Squill, lukeinator, kleril, superblackcat, Mr.Zero, griffinpup

0 votes to extend. 4 needed to extend
0 votes to shorten 5 needed to shorten

Day 1 will end in about 9 hours.
griffinpup has been prodded.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day
Post by: Imp on September 27, 2013, 02:24:02 am

I'll mention now that I'm willing to vote to extend.  I think I'm fine myself with the day ending as planned - but if people want more time to ask or to allow more time for answers, or chances to discuss something, I'd support that.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day
Post by: Mr.Zero on September 27, 2013, 02:34:31 am

Extend please

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day
Post by: Imp on September 27, 2013, 02:54:46 am

Extend supported.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day
Post by: Mr.Zero on September 27, 2013, 03:08:51 am

Quote from: Rolepgeek on September 26, 2013, 09:48:02 pm

@Mr.Zero - You're asking awfully in depth questions for hypothetical scenarios. Are you trying to learn what someone would do if they were scum so you can fake it?

Hypothetical scenario's don't have a limit, they can be as big as you can think them up, though it can and will get tiresome for the questioned one to answer it. But the more you know about the thought process of a player, the more you'll be able to understand his/her reasoning. This can increase your judgment abilities as you will be able to pinpoint more precisely if the said player is scum or not.

@Rolepgeek

Quote from: Rolepgeek on September 26, 2013, 05:31:54 pm

Strange sentence structure there. But the answer is no. ICs may be more experienced, but is is a learning game, and if the ICs are dead, they are less likely to talk, and give valuable information for later games.

Even if the IC's are dead, they should still be able to give advice. They don't magically vanish into thin air. So why do you trust them? Why aren't they potential targets considering the fact that they can be scum as well? Unless i misunderstood what you said.

@Blackcat

Quote from: Superblackcat on September 26, 2013, 05:47:11 pm

I see no point, and I won't ask questions unless there is a specific need for me to, that ties in to the game.

I find this a highly suspicious statement. Because if you are town then you are supposed to ask questions to uncover scum, if you are however scum... then there's no need to. Why are you in this defensive stance, something to hide? Why haven't you asked A single question? Why did you say This? (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4636720#msg4636720), Why haven't you answered Kleril's question?

@Kleril
Even though you asked a little bit more than blackcat, you didn't actively pursue  this (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4637603#msg4637603). Why so? Aren't you curious?

Quote from: kleril on September 26, 2013, 12:22:04 pm

I'm not liking the way this is headed. At this point I'm thinking Imp MAY be suspicious, 'cause that vote seemed to be just going along with the bandwagon.

Which bandwagon? That was a pressure vote. You show up and say this one liner without any pressure behind it, why didn;t you pressure vote to get more information?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day
Post by: Teneb on September 27, 2013, 10:21:22 am

Unvote

Imp

Quote from: Imp on September 26, 2013, 09:47:40 am

Deathsword:

Spoiler: Previous relevant questions and answers (click to show/hide)

Quote from: Imp on September 25, 2013, 06:08:43 am

@Deathsword:  One of the newbies makes a serious error on day one - an error so obvious (to experienced players) that the newbie's role is clearly exposed, but it is reasonable to think that the other new players may not recognize it.  How do you respond and why?

Quote from: Imp on September 26, 2013, 12:53:03 am

Quote from: Deathsword on September 25, 2013, 09:14:14 am

Imp: {Quote what you are answering. It takes little effort and helps a lot. People are not likely to search for whatever you are answering to.}

As for your question, I do not believe that there is any such thing as a confirmed player (role-wise). That said, if a person has done nothing scummy, then there is little reason to attack them. Of course, if they had been dropping tells and I was sure they were scum, they'd obviously be the focus of my efforts.

Just three posts later-

Quote from: Deathsword on September 25, 2013, 05:51:54 pm

{Please, I cannot stress this enough: QUOTE. Press the quote button on the post you are answering to, delete the parts that are irrelevant to the answer. If you are answering more than one question, there is an insert quote button in the Post Reply screen that can add those posts to yours.}

Deathsword: I hear your IC advice, and appreciate it.  I hear, and hear strongly, how important this quoting is, and can see why, after just a handful of posts, it does indeed get hard to track back to who is answering what where and why.

Please explain why you answered my question without quoting me, disregarding your own advice.  Immediately before answering me you spoke of the need to quote who you answer, yet as a player yourself you immediately did not.  Gamewise, this quoting is so important that you felt the need to repost additional IC advice just three posts later.  Yet the two people who answered between your posts, all they did was do exactly what you had done instead of what you ICly said to do.  Do you see some value as a player in the confusion that not quoting when answering someone causes, which as an IC you must speak against?

Quote from: Deathsword on September 26, 2013, 06:12:49 am

Imp: I was, and am, posting from my phone (PFP). That is already painfully hard to  without quoting.

... I see, and sympathize.  I hope to help make this as easy as possible for you, especially considering your pains and afflictions.

Failure to quote seems to increase confusion, and inability or refusal to follow an IC's advice, especially strongly given advice, which that IC believes takes little effort and has said cannot be stressed enough - this is confusing to me, in addition to the confusion failing to quote creates.

I do not believe confusion serves our full community of robots, and thus deeply misdoubt that we are on the same team.  But I do hope for you a swift and painless end to your afflictions, both those known and those suspected.

Do you by any chance think that your malfunctions can be cured, or is destruction indeed the only viable option for you?

So, let me get this straight: you call me out that I was not quoting despite my adivce to do so. I explain that I was posting from a phone, and thus it was nearly-impossible to quote properly. So, because I was posting from a phone and due to that unable to follow my own advice, I am scum?

Not quoting may cause confusion, but never, at any point, with or without my IC voice, did I state that people didn't quote to cause confusion deliberately.

{Everyone, even scum, benefit from quoting. If you are town, it makes your arguments easier. If you are scum, people are more likely to believe your attempts to make someone else look bad.}

kleril

Quote from: kleril on September 26, 2013, 12:22:04 pm

I'm not liking the way this is headed. At this point I'm thinking Imp MAY be suspicious, 'cause that vote seemed to be just going along with the bandwagon.

{One vote does not make a bandwagon. A bandwagon is a situation where a scum/lazy player votes someone just because everyone is doing that. I should note, however, that it is ok to agree with someone, but you may want to state your reasons to vote someone instead of some vague words (if any)}.

Now, tell me: if you are concerned, why are you not doing anything about it? Why just drop that one-liner and nothing else? That looks increasingly like lurking, which is of no benefit to the town.

{On lurking: lurking is the art of saying as little as you can to pass by unnoticed. This is obviously useless to the town, but scum can win this way. However, victory by lurking is the worst kind of victory, and I personally despise that. There also is active lurking. Active lurking is when, instead of posting as little as you can, you post a lot. Yet none of those posts include a single bit of content, consisting merely of useless fluff. Some players like to lynch lurkers first in order to get rid of someone that is not contributing to the game and of a potential source of confusion in the end-game.}

Superblackcat (SBC, if that is ok with you?)

Quote from: Superblackcat on September 26, 2013, 05:47:11 pm

@Deathsword, enlighten me. What is the point of asking questions such as: What is your first mafia game? or things along the lines

It was an RVS question. As I stated, the purpose of RVS is to get the game going and people posting. I personaly like questions like these because they allow me a "read" on a person, that is, said questions help me know how the player thinks. As an IC, it is also intresting to me to know what the new player thinks he/she learned last game.

Rolepgeek

Quote from: Rolepgeek on September 26, 2013, 09:48:02 pm

@Deathsword - Do you think it's better to ask questions of everyone or just a few people? If so, how many?

{This question boils down to personal preference. There is no maximum or minimum number of people you need to ask RVS questions as long as you ask something to someone. Regarding non-RVS questions, you obviously should ask a greater number of questions to those you find scummy, but do not forget to question others as well.}

Imp

Quote from: Imp on September 27, 2013, 12:40:23 am

Quote from: Rolepgeek on September 26, 2013, 09:48:02 pm

@Imp - Why do you think that an IC would use their IC powers to try and fool town?

Rolepgeek:  Oh, I don't.  Far as I understand, that would be breaking the rules as well - if it's not, please correct me, that would change how I think about the game.

As of now, I currently trust an IC voice in the game completely.  I am jaw-droppingly astonished that the person behind the IC voice who strongly instructed 'quote when you respond' is - not following that IC direction as a player.  Astonishing enough that I wondered why he would not do so, considering the length of his first PFP was quite long and very well worded, appearing to be something which he'd worked on for some time, and in general supports that he is an involved and intentioned player.

That first in-play post from Deathsword includes a length of strikethrough, use of color, even includes use of {} which are perhaps not conveniently placed characters to find on a phonepad.  If quoting when PFP is hard, well, there's no rush to answer; he could hold his replies for a more convienient time.

I had the time to spare (even though I was on a phone) for that first post. I also had written that little IC speech before, which certainly helps. While there was no real rush to answer via PFP, I know myself enough that I would probably either forgot or be too lazy to post later in that day thus the phone post. Also the phone pad allows me to do some pretty fancy stuff, word-wise. The problem with quoting is that it is impossible to delete stuff from within quotes or format them in any way without ending up with a mess.

Quote from: Imp on September 27, 2013, 12:40:23 am

It is possible that he has no convenient time ever, sure.  But just days before the game started Deathsword used a set of quotes in a post in this very thread -

Quote from: Deathsword on September 23, 2013, 07:31:57 pm

Quote from: Deathsword on September 16, 2013, 08:01:09 am

IC in, seeing as you need one.

Quote from: Nerjin on September 16, 2013, 04:13:39 pm

IC out

I'm starting a new job and am not entirely sure how much time I'll be having for a full on mafia game. I'll still be watching.

ZU, you seem to have missed those posts.

As you pointed out, these were before the game even started and I was at my PC (as I am now) during that.

Quote from: Mr.Zero on September 27, 2013, 03:08:51 am

@Rolepgeek

Quote from: Rolepgeek on September 26, 2013, 05:31:54 pm

Strange sentence structure there. But the answer is no. ICs may be more experienced, but is is a learning game, and if the ICs are dead, they are less likely to talk, and give valuable information for later games.

Even if the IC's are dead, they should still be able to give advice. They don't magically vanish into thin air. So why do you trust them? Why aren't they potential targets considering the fact that they can be scum as well? Unless i misunderstood what you said.

{This is absolutely correct. A dead IC can, and must, still give advice. And ICs certainly can be scum as much as any other player. Not voting an IC because he/she is an IC or trusting them as a player is something that simply should not be done. Trust the IC voice, not the player.}


Mod: Could you reprod fellow IC griff before the day ends without any content from him?

Also extend

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day
Post by: zombie urist on September 27, 2013, 01:05:55 pm

Day 1 extended to 9 PM PST, Tuesday October 1st.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day
Post by: Imp on September 27, 2013, 02:13:19 pm

@Deathsword:

Quote from: Deathsword on September 27, 2013, 10:21:22 am

Imp

Quote from: Imp on September 26, 2013, 09:47:40 am

Deathsword:

Spoiler: Previous relevant questions and answers (click to show/hide)

Quote from: Imp on September 25, 2013, 06:08:43 am

@Deathsword:  One of the newbies makes a serious error on day one - an error so obvious (to experienced players) that the newbie's role is clearly exposed, but it is reasonable to think that the other new players may not recognize it.  How do you respond and why?

Quote from: Imp on September 26, 2013, 12:53:03 am

Quote from: Deathsword on September 25, 2013, 09:14:14 am

Imp: {Quote what you are answering. It takes little effort and helps a lot. People are not likely to search for whatever you are answering to.}

As for your question, I do not believe that there is any such thing as a confirmed player (role-wise). That said, if a person has done nothing scummy, then there is little reason to attack them. Of course, if they had been dropping tells and I was sure they were scum, they'd obviously be the focus of my efforts.

Just three posts later-

Quote from: Deathsword on September 25, 2013, 05:51:54 pm

{Please, I cannot stress this enough: QUOTE. Press the quote button on the post you are answering to, delete the parts that are irrelevant to the answer. If you are answering more than one question, there is an insert quote button in the Post Reply screen that can add those posts to yours.}

Deathsword: I hear your IC advice, and appreciate it.  I hear, and hear strongly, how important this quoting is, and can see why, after just a handful of posts, it does indeed get hard to track back to who is answering what where and why.

Please explain why you answered my question without quoting me, disregarding your own advice.  Immediately before answering me you spoke of the need to quote who you answer, yet as a player yourself you immediately did not.  Gamewise, this quoting is so important that you felt the need to repost additional IC advice just three posts later.  Yet the two people who answered between your posts, all they did was do exactly what you had done instead of what you ICly said to do.  Do you see some value as a player in the confusion that not quoting when answering someone causes, which as an IC you must speak against?

Quote from: Deathsword on September 26, 2013, 06:12:49 am

Imp: I was, and am, posting from my phone (PFP). That is already painfully hard to  without quoting.

... I see, and sympathize.  I hope to help make this as easy as possible for you, especially considering your pains and afflictions.

Failure to quote seems to increase confusion, and inability or refusal to follow an IC's advice, especially strongly given advice, which that IC believes takes little effort and has said cannot be stressed enough - this is confusing to me, in addition to the confusion failing to quote creates.

I do not believe confusion serves our full community of robots, and thus deeply misdoubt that we are on the same team.  But I do hope for you a swift and painless end to your afflictions, both those known and those suspected.

Do you by any chance think that your malfunctions can be cured, or is destruction indeed the only viable option for you?

So, let me get this straight: you call me out that I was not quoting despite my adivce to do so. I explain that I was posting from a phone, and thus it was nearly-impossible to quote properly. So, because I was posting from a phone and due to that unable to follow my own advice, I am scum?

Not quoting may cause confusion, but never, at any point, with or without my IC voice, did I state that people didn't quote to cause confusion deliberately.

{Everyone, even scum, benefit from quoting. If you are town, it makes your arguments easier. If you are scum, people are more likely to believe your attempts to make someone else look bad.}

Imp

Quote from: Imp on September 27, 2013, 12:40:23 am

Quote from: Rolepgeek on September 26, 2013, 09:48:02 pm

@Imp - Why do you think that an IC would use their IC powers to try and fool town?

Rolepgeek:  Oh, I don't.  Far as I understand, that would be breaking the rules as well - if it's not, please correct me, that would change how I think about the game.

As of now, I currently trust an IC voice in the game completely.  I am jaw-droppingly astonished that the person behind the IC voice who strongly instructed 'quote when you respond' is - not following that IC direction as a player.  Astonishing enough that I wondered why he would not do so, considering the length of his first PFP was quite long and very well worded, appearing to be something which he'd worked on for some time, and in general supports that he is an involved and intentioned player.

That first in-play post from Deathsword includes a length of strikethrough, use of color, even includes use of {} which are perhaps not conveniently placed characters to find on a phonepad.  If quoting when PFP is hard, well, there's no rush to answer; he could hold his replies for a more convienient time.

I had the time to spare (even though I was on a phone) for that first post. I also had written that little IC speech before, which certainly helps. While there was no real rush to answer via PFP, I know myself enough that I would probably either forgot or be too lazy to post later in that day thus the phone post. Also the phone pad allows me to do some pretty fancy stuff, word-wise. The problem with quoting is that it is impossible to delete stuff from within quotes or format them in any way without ending up with a mess.

Quote from: Imp on September 27, 2013, 12:40:23 am

It is possible that he has no convenient time ever, sure.  But just days before the game started Deathsword used a set of quotes in a post in this very thread -

Quote from: Deathsword on September 23, 2013, 07:31:57 pm

Quote from: Deathsword on September 16, 2013, 08:01:09 am

IC in, seeing as you need one.

Quote from: Nerjin on September 16, 2013, 04:13:39 pm

IC out

I'm starting a new job and am not entirely sure how much time I'll be having for a full on mafia game. I'll still be watching.

ZU, you seem to have missed those posts.

As you pointed out, these were before the game even started and I was at my PC (as I am now) during that.

Deathsword, I appreciate your explanation, and I'd like you to help me understand your reasoning and thought processes better.  I'm going to refer to specific posts by letters and numbers, to help make it very clear what I am talking about.  I am calling your first post A, and each consecutive post that someone else made after that point as A1, A2, and so on - until your second post, which I'm calling B and using numbers.  In case this is confusing, or people wish to double check details, I'll link each letter or letter/number combination with the post it represents.

In A (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4635411#msg4635411), your IC voice states to quote when answering, says it takes little effort and helps a lot.  Your player voice follows this use of IC voice, answering me without quoting, and without explanation as to why no quote was used.  Did you perceive a discrepancy in this at the time?

Other players post A1 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4636158#msg4636158), without using quotes and A2 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4636627#msg4636627), which does use quotes. You immediately respond with B (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4636650#msg4636650), a pure IC voice post saying "Please, I cannot stress this enough: Quote."  You even explain how to use quotes, and how to use multiple quotes.

What were you thinking when you did this?  Also, what were you thinking about your own action of having not used quotes in your own answer as a player, and how this relates to your own advice as an IC?  It seems impossible to me that you could have been unaware of your own actions of inconsistency.  Post A1 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4636158#msg4636158) did nothing but do what you did - and you followed it with the firmly worded post B (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4636650#msg4636650) - but you did not explain, as IC or as a player, why -you- were not doing what your IC voice said, -nor- did you correct as an IC your previous claim from A (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4635411#msg4635411) that "Quote ... takes little effort" to include that quoting sometimes does take a lot of effort, even so much that it's not reasonable to do at all.  Which, by the way, as your IC voice will never lie nor mislead - that claim of quoting taking little effort - must be true AND most especially must be true for you, because those words have to come from your own understanding and experiences with how quoting works and the effort it takes. 

In your post D (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4637878#msg4637878), your words as a player directly contradict your words as an IC; as a player you refer to posting (by phone) as "painfully hard ... without quoting".  And in your post E (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4640604#msg4640604), you say, again as a player. "The problem with quoting is that it is impossible to delete stuff from within quotes or format them in any way without ending up with a mess."  This directly contradicts your IC statement in A (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4635411#msg4635411), where you said, "Quote what you are answering. It takes little effort".  I do believe your IC statement, completely.

Now, I don't have a problem with you as IC, with your IC voice, or with how you have used it.  I am not saying that you have spoken wrongly, at all, as an IC.  But you strike me as intelligent, and I do not think you could have been unaware of the discrepancy in your player words and actions.  And that inconsistency makes no sense to me.

I do not have a very strong feel of you as being Scum or not Scum.  But you feel 'not town' to me - and I have little way to interpret that except as your being Scum.  Please, help me understand and think as you think, how you could as a player feel comfortable and natural acting and speaking this way, without having felt any need to explain further, because these are really, blatantly obvious contradictions that fly in the face of assured truth.  If your player actions made sense, I believe I would feel far less of a 'not Town' vibe from you.  I sure hope you can help me understand and think as you think.

- And note, I am not asking you to step in as an IC and explain anything.  When you see fit to speak as an IC, do so.  I am talking -about- your IC voice sometimes in this, but my concerns are about your actions as a player, and I am talking -to- you as a player.  And if you provide an unsatisfactory player-level answer, I will treat it as an unsatisfactory player-level answer, even if it is accompanied by a perfectly correct IC-level response.

@Superblackcat:

Talk us through how you think a group of players should handle day 1 then?  Who would say what to whom and why?  I understand that you don't think questions without reasons are the way to go, so what should happen instead?  Do you think Mafia games should actually start with the night phase or something, so we all have a night kill to talk about, or what?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day
Post by: Teneb on September 27, 2013, 02:52:13 pm

Quote from: Imp on September 27, 2013, 02:13:19 pm

-snip-

Imp, I tend to post from my desktop. Those initial posts were the first time I posted in a mafia game from a phone. As I said, I had written all that stuff down before, with the intention to post it via my desktop, where it is indeed easy to quote. I attempted to quote on the phone, but it ended an unreadable mess. Thus no quotes.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day
Post by: Imp on September 27, 2013, 04:43:58 pm

Thank you, Deathsword.  I find it fascinating that you do not answer my questions regarding your thoughts at the time, or your awareness and comfort with the clash between your words as IC and your words as a player, which you have chosen to disregard both at the time you made the actions, and later when directly questioned about the conflict.  You continue to feel exactly as non-Town to me now as you had before, and my vote continues to point at you, with increased suspicion because of your disregard of my requests that you explain your behavior.

Since you choose not to answer any of my recent specific questions, here's a couple more for you; perhaps you'll want to answer one or both of these.  Have you been an IC before?  Is it more challenging for you to be an IC as well as a player, then when you are only a player?

@Kleril:  When you asked this ...

Quote from: kleril on September 25, 2013, 05:46:20 pm

@Mr.Zero: Those are some very... suggestively... phrased questions. Why are you trying to imply blame so early in the game?

... did you ask that question because suggestively phrased questions are out of place so early in the game (those were indeed the first questions asked once play began), or for some other reason?  If it's another reason, please explain, and if it is because such questions are out of place so early, would you please explain what's wrong with asking such?

@Rolepgeek:

Quote from: Rolepgeek on September 26, 2013, 09:48:02 pm

@Squill - Do you think you'll stick around in this game as compared to last?

Your vote against Squill, was it random or do you have reasons you did not share yet?  If your vote was random, does that mean that as of when you voted, you had not observed anything that made you feel suspicious of anyone yet?

@Mr.Zero:

Quote from: Mr.Zero on September 26, 2013, 04:27:45 am

@IC's: Can the IC's be scum as well?

Considering that the answer was provided within this thread twice (OP, Deathsword's first post after game start), why did you ask this?  Were you hoping for an IC-voice answer or a player-voice answer from the ICs?

@Squill:

Quote from: Squill on September 25, 2013, 03:32:41 pm

I'll make sure to do some questions at some point, but for now I'm just answering questions while I'm at my computer.

We've heard nothing from you in over 48 hours.  Are you actually interested and able to play?  If not, why have you not already requested a replacement, especially since we have one handy and apparently eager to get into his/her first game?

@Lukeinator

Quote from: Lukeinator on September 25, 2013, 08:26:01 pm

@Rolepgeek: What was your first game of mafia?

That's the last we've heard from you too, nearly a full 44 hours of silence from you since - yet you've been active on this forum and posting in other threads.  Are you bored with this game?  Anything we can do to make it more interesting for you?

@Superblackcat:

I have no specific questions for you at this time, but I am really, really interested in your answers to the questions others have been asking you.  I sure hope you start talking more.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day
Post by: Squill on September 27, 2013, 05:01:28 pm

Quote from: Rolepgeek on September 26, 2013, 09:48:02 pm

@Squill - Do you think you'll stick around in this game as compared to last?

@Deathsword: That vote for me seems an awful lot like you are voting because of the previous game.
But yes, I do fully intend on sticking this game out.

Quote from: Imp on September 27, 2013, 04:43:58 pm

@Squill:

Quote from: Squill on September 25, 2013, 03:32:41 pm

I'll make sure to do some questions at some point, but for now I'm just answering questions while I'm at my computer.

We've heard nothing from you in over 48 hours.  Are you actually interested and able to play?  If not, why have you not already requested a replacement, especially since we have one handy and apparently eager to get into his/her first game?

@Imp: I am very interested in playing, but I still am not too confident in my skills at the game. Until I notice something that seems suspicious, I'm just going to try and avoid causing more confusion than is necessary.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day
Post by: Squill on September 27, 2013, 05:04:19 pm

Quote from: Squill on September 27, 2013, 05:01:28 pm

Quote from: Rolepgeek on September 26, 2013, 09:48:02 pm

@Squill - Do you think you'll stick around in this game as compared to last?

@Deathsword: That vote for me seems an awful lot like you are voting because of the previous game.
But yes, I do fully intend on sticking this game out.

Goddammit. Disregard that "@Deathsword." That should read @Rolepgeek.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - In signups [6/7] - IC needed.
Post by: kleril on September 27, 2013, 05:06:08 pm

Quote from: Imp on September 27, 2013, 12:40:23 am

Quote from: kleril on September 26, 2013, 12:22:04 pm

I'm not liking the way this is headed. At this point I'm thinking Imp MAY be suspicious, 'cause that vote seemed to be just going along with the bandwagon.

Kleril:  What bandwagon does my vote seem to be going along with?

You're coming after Deathsword after a pressure vote. Rule of thumb the person following that is scum. Imp has my vote.

Quote from: Imp on September 27, 2013, 04:43:58 pm

@Kleril:  When you asked this ...

Quote from: kleril on September 25, 2013, 05:46:20 pm

@Mr.Zero: Those are some very... suggestively... phrased questions. Why are you trying to imply blame so early in the game?

... did you ask that question because suggestively phrased questions are out of place so early in the game (those were indeed the first questions asked once play began), or for some other reason?  If it's another reason, please explain, and if it is because such questions are out of place so early, would you please explain what's wrong with asking such?

They seemed to be setting the stage for who we should be keeping a close eye on, which seems like a great early scum play, to place long-term pressure on a handful of individuals other than yourself.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day
Post by: Lukeinator on September 27, 2013, 06:11:39 pm

Quote from: Imp on September 27, 2013, 04:43:58 pm

@Lukeinator

Quote from: Lukeinator on September 25, 2013, 08:26:01 pm

@Rolepgeek: What was your first game of mafia?

That's the last we've heard from you too, nearly a full 44 hours of silence from you since - yet you've been active on this forum and posting in other threads.  Are you bored with this game?  Anything we can do to make it more interesting for you?

@Imp
No, I just have no Idea what to ask.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day
Post by: Superblackcat on September 27, 2013, 06:19:41 pm

I'm sorry for how I have replied less... I have school daily, and can only get on a certain time.

However

@all, Could you guys enlighten me what the colors mean? I have never played mafia here before, and I am unfamiliar with the habits.

@MrZero, Why do you find that suspicious? It is how I play the game, and I ask questions that have to do with scumhunting, I don't ask questions that I find many of you guys asking, at least day one, about Meta. I know this seems like OMGUS, however, It seems like you are just trying to pin suspicion on everyone else but you, I recall a post about how you were asking how others would act if they were mafia. I may have messed up the person, and please correct me if I did... However, you seem to be trying to point fingers all over the table. FOS

@Death, Thanks for the answer. If you guys treat day one as kind of like a pre-game, I understand... However, I seem I put my suspicions wrongly, as everyone is asking questions completely related to the game.

@Imp, Sorry for the late reply, What does the blue mean? Also, I mostly play standard mafia setup with night start. I've played a lot of Epicmafia, and if any of you guys are familiar with how those games are run.... Well they are quite different from forum mafia. I have played forum mafia on another forum, Though it was not structured like this. I do prefer a Night Start, But the smart thing to do on d1 with night start and a 7/2 is NL, and that happens everytime.

@Luke, Who do you FOS?

@Mods, Are we allowed to edit?

I currently FOS MrZero the most... However, I am getting a lot of WIFOM. (In my brain)




@All Could everyone list out their top FOSes (If you have more than one as of now) and top TOWNies (If you have more than one)

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day
Post by: Mr.Zero on September 27, 2013, 06:27:59 pm

quick post before sleep, will post something tommorow.

Red bold = vote
Blue bold = FoS (Finger of Suspicion)

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day
Post by: Superblackcat on September 27, 2013, 06:37:27 pm

MrZero

Quote

@Superblackcat:

Talk us through how you think a group of players should handle day 1 then?  Who would say what to whom and why?  I understand that you don't think questions without reasons are the way to go, so what should happen instead?  Do you think Mafia games should actually start with the night phase or something, so we all have a night kill to talk about, or what?

@Imp, I just realized that I actually have not answered your question... I believe the discussion now suits me just fine, as it is focused on scum hunting, more than meta. Personally, unless someone incredibly suspicious comes up, I think that a NL for today and tomorrow will be better. That way, we extend the amount of time we get to talk and go through. Frankly, however similar those 3 setups are, they are foreign to me. Mostly because a jail keeper (instead of a doctor) blocks the role as well as protecting them. Meaning a cop out is pointless.(assuming that we do have a cop).

I believe that if a cop does find a mafia, that he should out -IMMEDIATELY- or at least soft tell it, with either votes/FOSes. There is no point in protecting yourself, at a certain point, if you are cop.

Please fill me in on what you think should be done as of now. I would like to see strategies of someone who have played these setups before.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day
Post by: Imp on September 27, 2013, 06:39:11 pm

Quote from: Superblackcat on September 27, 2013, 06:19:41 pm

@all, Could you guys enlighten me what the colors mean? I have never played mafia here before, and I am unfamiliar with the habits.

@Imp, Sorry for the late reply, What does the blue mean? Also, I mostly play standard mafia setup with night start. I've played a lot of Epicmafia, and if any of you guys are familiar with how those games are run.... Well they are quite different from forum mafia. I have played forum mafia on another forum, Though it was not structured like this. I do prefer a Night Start, But the smart thing to do on d1 with night start and a 7/2 is NL, and that happens everytime.

Tight on time atm and really wanting to read more of what others have to say too, but grabbed a moment to answer this, or at least part of this.

Quote from: zombie urist on August 30, 2013, 03:13:49 pm

• Voting - Votes are cast in red and should include the name of the targeted player. Other colors may be ignored.
  FoS - Finger of Suspicion, writing someone's name in blue signifies a great deal of suspicion. It's kind of like a fake-vote, or the threat of a vote. Good for getting attention.
  

We've been asked, and reminded a few times, to read the original post in this thread.  If you missed that, here's another reminder.  The blue info is in the Spoiler: CEAs (Commonly Encountered Abbreviations) and Other Terminology Commonly Found in Bay12 Mafia (click to show/hide); but the red is shown in the main body of the thread.

This reply's really not late, but there's an earlier question from me and a good few far earlier questions from some of the others that you've not answered.  Hope you find time to go back and read, think, and respond soonish.  Good thing we got that extension, huh.[/list]

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day
Post by: Superblackcat on September 27, 2013, 07:26:54 pm

@MrZero, I have answered kleril's question

@Imp, which questions did I miss?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day
Post by: Rolepgeek on September 28, 2013, 12:03:25 am

Sorry for not posting. I got distracted again. Should have questions and such tomorrow.

Quote from: Mr.Zero on September 27, 2013, 03:08:51 am

@Rolepgeek

Quote from: Rolepgeek on September 26, 2013, 05:31:54 pm

Strange sentence structure there. But the answer is no. ICs may be more experienced, but is is a learning game, and if the ICs are dead, they are less likely to talk, and give valuable information for later games.

Even if the IC's are dead, they should still be able to give advice. They don't magically vanish into thin air. So why do you trust them? Why aren't they potential targets considering the fact that they can be scum as well? Unless i misunderstood what you said.

Because you weren't talking about lynching. You were talking about if I was a mafia and night kills. Lynching's different.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day
Post by: Rolepgeek on September 28, 2013, 12:06:56 am

Gah. Posted before I quoted this one too.

Quote from: Imp on September 27, 2013, 04:43:58 pm

@Rolepgeek:

Quote from: Rolepgeek on September 26, 2013, 09:48:02 pm

@Squill - Do you think you'll stick around in this game as compared to last?

Your vote against Squill, was it random or do you have reasons you did not share yet?  If your vote was random, does that mean that as of when you voted, you had not observed anything that made you feel suspicious of anyone yet?

To answer you and Squill both, it was indeed random(ish). I chose him mostly because of the last game, but it was still an RVS vote, so yes, when I voted, I had not yet observed anything that made me suspicious in particular. That may be due to the fact that I keep procrastinating with this game and thus rushing through trying to post. That should be more or less fixed over the weekend/with the weekend.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day
Post by: zombie urist on September 28, 2013, 12:18:15 am

griffipup has been prodded again.  :(

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day
Post by: kleril on September 28, 2013, 12:49:27 am

Note on cops + game setup:

Quote from: zombie urist on August 30, 2013, 03:13:49 pm

One of the following setups is used:
1. 1 Mafioso, 1 Mafia Role Cop, 5 Vanilla Townies, Sane Cop, Jailkeeper.
2. 1 Mafioso, 1 Mafia Role Cop, 6 Vanilla Townies, Sane Cop.
3. 1 Mafioso, 1 Mafia Role Cop, 6 Vanilla Townies, Jailkeeper.

Just like to remind everyone of this as we head into the end of day one.

Note to the cop (provided you exist): Alert everyone upon finding a confirmed mafia member. I'm too lazy / tired to do the math right now, but odds are we'll need the extra time the guaranteed lynch affords us. Until this point, however, say NOTHING relating to your role.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day
Post by: zombie urist on September 28, 2013, 01:57:56 am

Day 1 will end Tuesday, October 1st at 9 PM.

Votecount
Imp - kleril
Squill - Rolepgeek
lukeinator -
Rolepgeek -
kleril - Deathsword
superblackcat - Mr.Zero
Mr.Zero -
Deathsword - Imp
griffinpup -

No lynch -
Not voting - Squill, lukeinator, superblackcat, griffinpup

0 votes to extend. 4 needed to extend
0 votes to shorten 5 needed to shorten

griffinpup has been prodded again.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day
Post by: Imp on September 28, 2013, 05:02:19 am

@zombie urist and/or IC:

Quote from: zombie urist on September 28, 2013, 01:57:56 am

Day 1 will end Tuesday, October 1st at 9 PM.
Day 1 will end in about 9 hours.
griffinpup has been prodded again.

Err, does that 'Day 1 will end in about 9 hours' belong in this post still?  While I'm wondering about time, Day 1 ends at 9 PM in which timezone?

Is it even possible to replace our IC griffinpup, as there are no IC replacements waitlisted?  What happens if it is not possible?

@Rolepgeek

Quote from: Mr.Zero on September 25, 2013, 03:03:27 am

@Rolepgeek: If you would be a mafia member, would you try to NK one or more IC's regarding their higher experience?

Quote from: Rolepgeek on September 28, 2013, 12:03:25 am

Sorry for not posting. I got distracted again. Should have questions and such tomorrow.

Quote from: Mr.Zero on September 27, 2013, 03:08:51 am

@Rolepgeek

Quote from: Rolepgeek on September 26, 2013, 05:31:54 pm

Strange sentence structure there. But the answer is no. ICs may be more experienced, but is is a learning game, and if the ICs are dead, they are less likely to talk, and give valuable information for later games.

Even if the IC's are dead, they should still be able to give advice. They don't magically vanish into thin air. So why do you trust them? Why aren't they potential targets considering the fact that they can be scum as well? Unless i misunderstood what you said.

Because you weren't talking about lynching. You were talking about if I was a mafia and night kills. Lynching's different.

Good point.  I don't understand what you mean though, if you were Mafia, you would not NK one or both ICs because of their higher experience, because.... then they are less likely to talk and give valuable information for later games.  Which later games?  Are you talking about meta, and wanting to use what an IC may post here to help analyze that same person's play in an actual future Mafia game that may someday happen?  Or are you trying to say that you wouldn't NK one or both ICs because their actual -play- here provides the newbie players with valuable information (experience) for the newbies' future games? ..... except that can't be what you meant, because a dead player, IC or not, doesn't talk in play at all.... in order to be "less likely to talk" if dead... you have to think that ICs which are currently living players will be more likely to use their IC voice than ICs who have been killed off as players.

That's a weird thing to think.  Is that what you actually mean?  If not, would you please clarify?

And you bring up a great point - you were not asked about lynching.  I'm going to try and phrase this question as if Mr.Zero had asked it originally instead, because now I am really curious about your answer - Would you try to lynch one or more IC's regarding their higher experience?


@Squill and Lukeinator:

Quote from: Squill on September 27, 2013, 05:01:28 pm

@Imp: I am very interested in playing, but I still am not too confident in my skills at the game. Until I notice something that seems suspicious, I'm just going to try and avoid causing more confusion than is necessary.

Quote from: Lukeinator on September 27, 2013, 06:11:39 pm

@Imp
No, I just have no Idea what to ask.

I'd like to remind you guys, or just let you know period if it's the first time you've read it, that the original post of our game are these words:

Quote from: zombie urist on August 30, 2013, 03:13:49 pm

Please be active. The greatest killer of beginner games is poor activity.

And remember, be bold! You learn nothing and you gain nothing by holding back.

Frequently Asked Questions
   

• Do I have to post so much? I can't be bothered.
  Yes, you do. You have to be an active player to scumhunt effectively, and with a lurking playerbase you might as well just hand it to the scum. There is always something to say; even if someone said what you wanted to, say it anyways in your own words. Always ask questions, always observe.
  This is a very demanding game. If you don't have enough time, then perhaps you should look elsewhere.
• How do I even tell if someone's scum anyways?
  This is, in fact, a difficult question. The game involves a lot of observation, and often it's more about intuition.
  
  ...real scumhunting, which is seeing people play and making observations from that

I am going to assume one or both of you is Town in what I say next:  Please, please please please please be more active in posting to this thread.  Do be BOLD!  Do take risks and make mistakes and learn.  If you wanted to just -read- a Mafia game, the forum is FILLED with other games you can read at any time.  THIS is a game you can participate in.  Who cares if it's your first ever Mafia game, or your second?  It's mine first game too.  You read what was asked of another returning Beginner Mafia player, and how he answered, right? 

Quote from: Rolepgeek on September 26, 2013, 05:31:54 pm

Quote from: Deathsword on September 25, 2013, 09:14:14 am

Rolepgeek: You played in the last BM, if I recall correctly. What do you think you learned there?

I learned to trust my gut... I feel like we lost because there was a lack of communication. So while it can be difficult to communicate, not being sure who the scum is/are, it is also paramount.

I believe him.  Lets not lose like that.  We are all, after all, here to -learn-.  Lets learn.  Lets do it.  Lets try and if we fail, lets fail actively, trying our best and getting the most we can out of the chances and experiences we have in this game.

I am going to assume that you are both watching the thread, reading, and thinking - share at least some of those thoughts with the rest of your town!  Maybe something confuses you - ask about it!  Maybe you follow some interactions between people, but have no idea what to say to add to the interrogation - you can direct statements to someone, say what you think you observe happening in the interaction, and ask if that person agrees with your interpretation or believes they see something else going on.  For that matter, you can even ask someone what their interpretation is of how two other players are interacting - or anything at all!  Do anything - confusing or not, outright wrong or not, it is better for your team than silently lurking.  Sure, there's active lurking too... I don't mean to purposefully do that.  But if you accidentally do that?  If so, that's learning, a stage you had to go through, and then you're through it and you're a better, stronger, more able player.

But I beg you both.... do not lurk quietly.  That looks so bad on the person doing it, and it hurts town, ESPECIALLY when a town player does it.  As town, you won't choose to hurt town, right?  Even if you were not town, you still would not choose to appear to hurt town, right?  Even with both of you being town, with two townies lurking almost totally silently, the Scum can get away with more lurking, how can we possibly tell them from you?  We simply can't, because you are part of what they must be measured against!  And we need your help in winning this game - really, we do, and if you don't actively help us, you are passively helping the scum.  Most games are won by the Scum, from what I've read.  They don't need your help, but your fellow Town sure does.

Now I'm going to assume you're both scum, and here's what I have to say about that and your lurking:  Thank you! You guys do whatever it is you want to do.  We're going to get our Townie confusions settled in a day or two, and then we're going to hold a wake for our dead beside your lynched corpses.

@Kleril:  You felt like Town to me.  As of your first post you did, and that hadn't changed until your most recent post.  I -like- that you're suspicious of me, I do remain suspicious of you too even though you feel like Town.  That's how it should be.  I believe my feel of you comes from how you write more than anything else, possibly the specific questions you first asked.  That's a weak thing to base a feel of Town on; none-the-less, it's there in my mind and I do trust my instincts, intuition, and subconscious - whether I know my reasons or not, I tend to trust me when I think or feel something.

The only thing about you that has, so far, changed your feel to me is the reason you give for having voted for me, the lack of response you have given those who have asked about your reasoning, and your possible drop in post number and length.  Your actions and words in this area seem tangled and possessed of leaping logic, but that could be from some confusion about what words to call it or something.  You may have a very good reason that makes a lot of sense, and I've just not been able to follow how you've said it - that is something to strain feelings of Town.

You called my vote on Deathsword "going along with the bandwagon" first, and maybe that was just a misuse of terminology.  Other people, including the IC voice, disagreed with that choice of words

Quote from: Deathsword on September 27, 2013, 10:21:22 am

{One vote does not make a bandwagon. A bandwagon is a situation where a scum/lazy player votes someone just because everyone is doing that. I should note, however, that it is ok to agree with someone, but you may want to state your reasons to vote someone instead of some vague words (if any)}.

And, troublingly, you fail so far (it's been about 22 hours, and you have posted since) to answer either of these player's questions about it:

Quote from: Mr.Zero on September 27, 2013, 03:08:51 am

Which bandwagon? That was a pressure vote. You show up and say this one liner without any pressure behind it, why didn;t you pressure vote to get more information?

Quote from: Deathsword on September 27, 2013, 10:21:22 am

Now, tell me: if you are concerned, why are you not doing anything about it? Why just drop that one-liner and nothing else? That looks increasingly like lurking, which is of no benefit to the town.

I grant you - you respond to my question about your words -

Quote from: kleril on September 27, 2013, 05:06:08 pm

Quote from: Imp on September 27, 2013, 12:40:23 am

Kleril:  What bandwagon does my vote seem to be going along with?

You're coming after Deathsword after a pressure vote. Rule of thumb the person following that is scum. Imp has my vote.

What really matters isn't what you correctly or incorrectly call my actions, but catching the Scum, no matter who they are or what they feel like.

What you said, do I understand correctly?  Person A (Deathsword) was the first person to vote in the thread.  Person B (Imp) was the second person to vote in the thread, and placed their vote on person A.  This is a scumtell - only Scum would vote second and vote against the person who voted first.  Is this is a correct interpretation of what you said - I am understanding your reasoning right?

This means you would have voted for -anyone- who voted second against the first person to vote in the thread?  This also means that under no circumstances would you, as Town, -ever- vote second against the person who voted first in the thread?

Fascinating.  Deep consideration of that 'logic', that claim of use of a 'rule of thumb' wipes clean my feel of you as Town.  Of course, I might not be understanding you right - and if I'm not, that's no true feeling change.  If I do understand you correctly though, it is hard for me to believe that yours is Town reasoning, no matter any level of inexperience which you may have.  I beg you to help me understand your thinking and rationale on this issue.

As to my timing: I had a bad feel, a non-Town feel, from words and actions used by Deathsword.  I followed that feel and discussed my concerns with him.  As it happened, he did not satisfy those concerns, but increased them.  I placed my vote upon him with the timing I did because of the progression of my and his interactions.  His having voted by that point or not; anyone else's having voted by then or not had no part of my concern about him and had no effect on my decisions or timing.  My vote against him could very easily have been the first vote in this thread, or the 8th.

I welcome and embrace your suspicion, and that of everyone else in the thread; most of us are Town and True, as the numbers and OP say we must be.  Kleril, please answer your other questioners, and please answer the questions I have placed in this thread.  I am deeply interested in your answers.  I am also deeply interested in seeing you continue, and increase, your own use of questions and scumhunting.  Other than a small handful of sentences, all directed at me, you've gone almost silent as of your third posting.  If you are Town, as you have felt to me, we need your help desperately.

@Mr.Zero:
I hated your first post in this thread.  From sentence structure to what and how you were asking - and too, that your question to me as asked did not make much sense to me - I was expecting bad things of you.  Every post you've made I've liked more than that first one, and my respect of and comfort with you has grown steadily.  I'm still watching everything you do, and you look like you're scum hunting to me. I have no new questions for you now - but I do hope you still answer the one I asked most recently when the timing is convenient for you.

@Deathsword:
I have no further words for you at this time, but oh do I watch you.
 
@Superblackcat:

Quote from: Mr.Zero on September 27, 2013, 03:08:51 am

@Blackcat

Quote from: Superblackcat on September 26, 2013, 05:47:11 pm

I see no point, and I won't ask questions unless there is a specific need for me to, that ties in to the game.

I find this a highly suspicious statement. Because if you are town then you are supposed to ask questions to uncover scum, if you are however scum... then there's no need to. Why are you in this defensive stance, something to hide? Why haven't you asked A single question? Why did you say This? (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4636720#msg4636720), Why haven't you answered Kleril's question?

Quote from: kleril on September 26, 2013, 12:14:53 am

Quote from: Superblackcat on September 25, 2013, 06:08:54 pm

...there is no penalty, as in losing the game, for the townies, if you lynch today, no matter what happens.

Interesting choice of pronoun there, bud. There something we should know?

Quote from: Superblackcat on September 26, 2013, 05:47:11 pm

@klerirl, It's just how I am used to refering to things...

Welp, Superblackcat, you answered one but only one of Mr.Zero's questions in the post of yours which I currently reply to.  So I have to assume you saw his other three - they were all consecutive in the same paragraph, looks really hard to miss to me.

I half agree with your 'I have answered Kleril's question', you certainly did reply to it, but your reply's really not much of an answer.  I really am interested in your answers, the same as I am everyone else's.  All these suspcions to allay and all.  Those are the questions I am refering to, right here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4640177#msg4640177) when Mr.Zero asked:  "if you are town then you are supposed to ask questions to uncover scum, if you are however scum... then there's no need to. Why are you in this defensive stance, something to hide? Why haven't you asked A single question? Why did you say This? (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4636720#msg4636720), Why haven't you answered Kleril's question?"

I'd also like my questions to be more fully answered.  For instance, though you answered parts of some these questions, you left some of them completely unanswered:

Quote from: Imp on September 27, 2013, 02:13:19 pm

Talk us through how you think a group of players should handle day 1 then?  Who would say what to whom and why?  I understand that you don't think questions without reasons are the way to go, so what should happen instead?  Do you think Mafia games should actually start with the night phase or something, so we all have a night kill to talk about, or what?

I understand from your answers here and here that you do either think that the game should start with night, or at least you are used to Mafia variants starting at night, and then you list details of how the first days should go - but you say 'the smart way to VOTE', which you also say "happens everytime", but you do not actually answer my questions.

I asked you "I understand that you don't think questions without reasons are the way to go, so what should happen instead?".  Your answer sounds like you're saying town should vote no lynch (that's NL, right?) for the first two days, "today and tomorrow" as a way to "extend the time we get to talk and go through."  Did you read any of the opening post?  You do understand that after each round of voting, be that vote a person or no lynch, night happens and the Mafia kills a townsfolk, right?  Considering your extremely quiet behavior here, and your stated strategy, you seem to be playing for Town to lose.

Additionally, yours is a very odd writing style, and a lot of what you say seems to at least partially contradict other of your words.  For example:

Quote from: Superblackcat on September 27, 2013, 06:19:41 pm

I have never played mafia here before, and I am unfamiliar with the habits.
...
 Also, I mostly play standard mafia setup with night start. I've played a lot of Epicmafia, and if any of you guys are familiar with how those games are run.... Well they are quite different from forum mafia. I have played forum mafia on another forum, Though it was not structured like this.

Quote from: Superblackcat on September 27, 2013, 06:37:27 pm

Frankly, however similar those 3 setups are, they are foreign to me.

It really sounds in this like you are telling us that you are unfamiliar with this style of Mafia, yet you also say things such as this...

Quote from: Superblackcat on September 27, 2013, 06:37:27 pm

I think that a NL for today and tomorrow will be better. That way, we extend the amount of time we get to talk and go through.

Quote from: Superblackcat on September 27, 2013, 06:37:27 pm

I believe that if a cop does find a mafia, that he should out -IMMEDIATELY- or at least soft tell it, with either votes/FOSes. There is no point in protecting yourself, at a certain point, if you are cop.

Quote from: Superblackcat on September 25, 2013, 06:08:54 pm

As it's a Day Start..... We get 1 RL (Random Lynch) This means there is no penalty, as in losing the game, for the townies, if you lynch today, no matter what happens.


So If we mislynch today, we will still get a day tomorrow, that is lylo. If we don't lynch to day (assuming no protect)/Jailkeep, We will get a Mylo Tomorrow, with 6/2

This makes it sound like you are stating strategies that you believe this group of players, including yourself, should follow.  If you feel that this version of mafia in many ways large and small is different from what you know, that "you are unfamiliar" with things that are going on - what motivates you to offer group strategy for this game version which you are aware is significantly different from what you say you know?  If the game is different from what you knew, why do you think the strategies you suggest from those games are best to use in this different game?

As far as I know about no-lynch voting on day 1... well, also in the original post.... which I suspect more and more you did not read much of...is a spoiler about that.

Quote from: zombie urist on August 30, 2013, 03:13:49 pm

Spoiler: On D1 No-lynches (click to show/hide)

Quote from: Bookthras

I'm not an IC, but I once wrote a rant about nolynches on Day One that I think would be beneficial for this audience, so I quote it below. In brief, you can (i.e., it's a valid vote, and if it has majority no lynch will happen) but you shouldn't unless you have a very very good reason. Actual ICs will, of course, chime in with their own thoughts, and there are different considerations to be had in subsequent days; the below applies only for D1.

Quote from: Bookthras on May 08, 2012, 09:31:27 pm

Even in a game like this, or a role-heavy game like a BYOR, paranormal, or bastard, without a D1 lynch people will lack context for the conversation during the day, which is the very point of the day game. The information lost is not just the flip of a person, but who voted them, with what arguments, and forms the very foundation of how the town power roles will choose their night actions. Information is key, and timely information moreso. People flipping at the start of D2 is not nearly as useful, and a nolynch will result in people using their powers on whoever they were voting (if block/investigate) or a crapshoot for protections and the like, due to lack of context and closure.

A D1 no-lynch pretty much wastes all of D1 content, and gives scum a chance to NK/convert/whatever while town has to shoot in the dark. The amount of information lost is not small, but most importantly, you lose the opportunity to use it. N1 will never come again. Even if you learn the information later, you'll never get that night back, which scum got for free. Not good for town at all.

Quote from: Hapah on May 08, 2012, 07:22:06 pm

Also considering the fact that the D1 lynchee is almost always town (when was the last time anyone saw a scum hang D1?),

Not that rare. The very last game I played (Cybrid Mafia 3 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=104547.msg3146622#msg3146622)) we lynched scum D1. A couple games before that (Politibastard) as well, though that was a... different sort of game. I'm sure there are several others.

So sure, it doesn't happen that often, but it certainly does happen. Plus the possibility of a mislynch is built into the balance of the game. If there is going to be one, it's best for town that it happens sooner rather than later, so maximum information is provided early. It's never good, but a D1 no-lynch is worse.

Please disabuse yourself of the notion that a D1 no-lynch is good for town ever. Except in very narrow types of games where constant (not just D1) no-lynch can be used to break the setup (which is not the case here), whenever you think a D1 no-lynch is good because it's cautious, it's misapplied caution, and will hurt town much more than a possible mislynch would.

The most relevant part I'll directly quote here - "A D1 no-lynch pretty much wastes all of D1 content, and gives scum a chance to NK/convert/whatever while town has to shoot in the dark. The amount of information lost is not small, but most importantly, you lose the opportunity to use it. N1 will never come again. Even if you learn the information later, you'll never get that night back, which scum got for free. Not good for town at all."

So nope, I'm really not convinced that your suggestion is actually good for town.  Granted, I don't know through personal experience.  In regards to this -

Quote from: Superblackcat on September 27, 2013, 06:37:27 pm

Please fill me in on what you think should be done as of now. I would like to see strategies of someone who have played these setups before.

I am a true Mafia newbie; never played any form of it anywhere before this game.  I am not "someone who [has] played these setups before"; but even as a newbie, quite a few of your statements seem scummy to me.

To sum up the scuzziness that I see from you:  You tend to answer only fragments of the questions that others ask you, and typically these answers do not really answer the questions .  You are taking very few actions which appear to be scum hunting or otherwise pro town.  You make multiple conflicting statements, some of which support your being new to this type or form of Mafia and not knowing it well, others of which support your understanding the actions the entire playerbase should take - actions which, such as voting no-lynch, appear to be generally bad for town.  Additionally you suggest a no-lynch vote as a way to "extend the amount of time we get to talk and go through" - which can, and has, and can again be achieved by requests to extend - without allowing the Mafia a free night kill as your "I think that a NL for today and tomorrow will be better" strategy would give.

Deathsword feels even more 'not-Town' to me than Superblackcat feels Scum, so I am not at this time changing my vote, but I am tremendously suspicious of Superblackcat.

Superblackcat, if you are Town I really hope you show it, loud, clear, strong, and soon.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day
Post by: Lukeinator on September 28, 2013, 06:28:47 am

@Squill
What is your favorite color

@Mr.Zero
WHat was the first game you won?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day
Post by: Mr.Zero on September 28, 2013, 07:29:53 am

Quote from: Imp on September 27, 2013, 04:43:58 pm

@Mr.Zero:

Quote from: Mr.Zero on September 26, 2013, 04:27:45 am

@IC's: Can the IC's be scum as well?

Considering that the answer was provided within this thread twice (OP, Deathsword's first post after game start), why did you ask this?  Were you hoping for an IC-voice answer or a player-voice answer from the ICs?

IC answer, since  wasn't too sure at that moment. I wrote that post somewhere in the morning so i was  confused but i discovered the answer later and edit's are no-no.

Quote from: Superblackcat on September 27, 2013, 06:19:41 pm

@MrZero, Why do you find that suspicious? It is how I play the game, and I ask questions that have to do with scumhunting, I don't ask questions that I find many of you guys asking, at least day one, about Meta. I know this seems like OMGUS, however, It seems like you are just trying to pin suspicion on everyone else but you, I recall a post about how you were asking how others would act if they were mafia. I may have messed up the person, and please correct me if I did... However, you seem to be trying to point fingers all over the table.

The problem with 'your' method of questioning is that you yourself do little hunting and actually attach yourself to the findings of others.

Which suspicion?The only true suspicion is the one i have from you AFTER i started asking you.

Pointing fingers? No offense but isn't that like the whole concept of playing a mafia game? I am pointing a finger at you, because you practically said "I don't scum hunt on my own." and all of your ideas point towards extending time, which conveniently happens to give the scum one or more NK's.

Quote from: Superblackcat on September 27, 2013, 06:19:41 pm

@All Could everyone list out their top FOSes (If you have more than one as of now) and top TOWNies (If you have more than one)

No thanks, i'm not to keen about giving that information but i can say that you are at the top.

Quote from: Lukeinator on September 28, 2013, 06:28:47 am

@Mr.Zero
WHat was the first game you won?

Uff, some BM i think. That was a long time ago, but i won it as scum. We pulled off something and miraculously lynched Jim thus ending the game.

@rest
Was my first post Really THAT bad in grammar?

Will add something more later, have to do some grocery shopping & work.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day
Post by: Squill on September 28, 2013, 09:16:05 am

Quote from: Lukeinator on September 28, 2013, 06:28:47 am

@Squill
What is your favorite color?

@Lukeinator: Ehhh... Blue.

What is YOUR favorite color?
Also, if you could pick a side, would you pick Mafia or Townie?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day
Post by: Lukeinator on September 28, 2013, 12:01:23 pm

Quote from: Squill on September 28, 2013, 09:16:05 am

What is YOUR favorite color?
Also, if you could pick a side, would you pick Mafia or Townie?

Townie. Hunting is way more interesting than hiding to me.
Also, green.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day
Post by: Imp on September 28, 2013, 07:18:44 pm

@Squill:

This is a completely hypothetical pair of questions.  I understand you are a new player, as am I - but I'd still like your best answers please.

1)  I want you to pretend that when you got your role PM, you found out that you were the town Jailkeeper.  The game has progressed to the first night - but no lynch happened (maybe because the majority vote was for no lynch, maybe because the lynch vote was a tie).  This means that every player in the game is still alive - using the information you have right now, what player would you pick to lock down, and why would you pick that one?

2)  I want you to pretend that when you got your role PM, you found out that you were the town Rolecop.  The game has progressed to the first night - but no lynch happened (maybe because the majority vote was for no lynch, maybe because the lynch vote was a tie).  This means that every player in the game is still alive - using the information you have right now, what player would you pick to investigate, and why would you pick that one?

@Lukeinator:

This is a completely hypothetical pair of questions.   I understand you are a new player, as am I - but I'd still like your best answers please.


I want you to pretend that you are this game's Scum IC (Pretend that someone else has your player spot and happens to have answered exactly as you have so far).  You have access to the scum private chat, you know who the real scum players are, and it is your duty to give them the best advice you can towards winning the game for their side.  So far, these two players have not logged into the scum's chat, so they never got any of your advice - but they just have now and are both listening to you.

1) Pretend that the scum players whom you advise are Superblackcat and Kleril.  They ask you for advice about what they should do for the rest of the Day.  They also ask you for whom you think they should pick to Night Kill - and for who you recommend the Mafia Rolecop investigate.  What is your advice?

2)  Pretend that the scum players whom you advise are Rolepgeek and Mr.Zero.  They ask you for advice about what they should do for the rest of the Day.  They also ask you for whom you think they should pick to Night Kill - and for who you recommend the Mafia Rolecop investigate.  What is your advice?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day
Post by: Rolepgeek on September 28, 2013, 09:12:30 pm

Alright. I have a dance tonight, so I'll just respond. *sigh*

@Imp - I'm not quoting that behemoth. I'm sorry, but I'm not.

To clarify; I would not night-kill them based solely on their experience. I would try to night-kill in such a way to sow dissent and confusion, and killing the ICs doesn't necessarily do that. And, since I'm still learning, it's good to let them do stuff and give IC advice, which NQT did far less last game after he was NKed.

As for lynching, the answer is a resounding no. There is a higher likelihood of them being Town then Scum, purely statistically if nothing else, and their help will be invaluable. Therefore, not considering anything else in this context, I would not lynch solely because they are more experienced(due to the strangeness of the english language, that can be interpreted in two ways. I mean that I will not lynch them for the purpose of getting rid of their experience by doing so, which is the best way I believe I can phrase that. >.>)

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day
Post by: Squill on September 28, 2013, 09:19:58 pm

Quote from: Imp on September 28, 2013, 07:18:44 pm

@Squill:

This is a completely hypothetical pair of questions.  I understand you are a new player, as am I - but I'd still like your best answers please.

1)  I want you to pretend that when you got your role PM, you found out that you were the town Jailkeeper.  The game has progressed to the first night - but no lynch happened (maybe because the majority vote was for no lynch, maybe because the lynch vote was a tie).  This means that every player in the game is still alive - using the information you have right now, what player would you pick to lock down, and why would you pick that one?

2)  I want you to pretend that when you got your role PM, you found out that you were the town Rolecop.  The game has progressed to the first night - but no lynch happened (maybe because the majority vote was for no lynch, maybe because the lynch vote was a tie).  This means that every player in the game is still alive - using the information you have right now, what player would you pick to investigate, and why would you pick that one?

Is this in the context of this game specifically, or for any game?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day
Post by: Imp on September 28, 2013, 09:48:33 pm

Quote from: Squill on September 28, 2013, 09:19:58 pm

Quote from: Imp on September 28, 2013, 07:18:44 pm

@Squill:

This is a completely hypothetical pair of questions.  I understand you are a new player, as am I - but I'd still like your best answers please.

1)  I want you to pretend that when you got your role PM, you found out that you were the town Jailkeeper.  The game has progressed to the first night - but no lynch happened (maybe because the majority vote was for no lynch, maybe because the lynch vote was a tie).  This means that every player in the game is still alive - using the information you have right now, what player would you pick to lock down, and why would you pick that one?

2)  I want you to pretend that when you got your role PM, you found out that you were the town Rolecop.  The game has progressed to the first night - but no lynch happened (maybe because the majority vote was for no lynch, maybe because the lynch vote was a tie).  This means that every player in the game is still alive - using the information you have right now, what player would you pick to investigate, and why would you pick that one?

Is this in the context of this game specifically, or for any game?

This game specifically.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day
Post by: Squill on September 29, 2013, 10:25:48 am

@Imp:
1: Probably you, as you are by far the one who posts the most. It means that you are either a. A scum, furiously working to appear useful to the town, or b., a townie who is extremely active, and very aggressive with pressuring; which makes you seem like an important target for scum, and a large loss to town if you are killed.

2: I'm still thinking about this one, I'll get back when I figure something out.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day
Post by: Superblackcat on September 29, 2013, 12:36:55 pm

@Imp, Frankly, Looking at Mr Zero's question, He was attacking me for one of my answer's, which was a response to all the questions asked at the beginning of the game. Which were mostly, How come you play mafia?, How did you do last game? And other questions such as that. I personally believe those to be useless, and as you can see, I am participating within the question asking. However, I'm not asking questions, that you ask, such as "What would you do if X?". Throughout my time playing mafia, I have not found it particularly useful. I believe the first half of the question to be Meta, which would bias people wrongly, especially if they were actually mafia last game. No matter how hard it is not to be biased, they would be. That's why I try to ignore all posts that ask those questions.

The second half of the questions I'm talking about... Well I'm not sure what the use is. If you could, could you please fill me in as of why you think asking these questions are useful.

For MrZero's Question's. Some of the questions sounded like prompts, telling me to go out and answer the questions, and Frankly, I'm pretty sure before that post, I did answer any and all questions I saw directly to me. If I did not, I probably just missed them, or read over them.


I am pretty sure I was not in a defensive stance, so I ignored that. Most of MrZero's question's were leading question's, designed to make you look scummy. He wrote the defensive stance, so when everyone else looks at what I have written thus far, they would automatically assume I'm in a defensive stance.

"Why haven't you asked a single question?" I have now, But back then, there was no question for me to ask, as there was nothing for me to go off of. Most of you guys were asking questions based off of previous games, and as you read above, I don't.

I stated that. (Not sure how to link, but you guys can go down and click the link in Imp's quote) because it is basically the 2 options open to us. First is NL for today and tomorrow, Second is RL today, and if we do get a mafia. Great, if not, we killed someone that may have been important.

There are pro's and con's to both sides.

First of all. If we Mis lynch the RL, then the same amount of townies die. two.

The pro, however, to NL, is that we get 2 days/nights to discuss, untill d3, where it becomes Lylo. We will be able to see mafia's reaction to what is discussed in the day, and who they kill. Giving us more to go off of. Also, the cop may get a mafia, and then it makes it a lot easier.

The con is that there is no chance that a mafia will die, as it will be the mafia killing for both.

The pro to the RL, the mafia kill, would be that we will get a chance to kill mafia, however small that is.

The con is that we get less time for everything, meaning that the cop only gets 1 night (assuming there is a cop) and we only get one night to scum hunt.


Personally, because I think the chance of actually killing the mafia is quite small, I would prefer two NL's. However, if there was something drastic happen, in the next several of hours, a RL may be what we need.


Speaking of that.

Extend more!

I believe if you guys think I still have not answered kleril's question, I'm not sure how to further answer it.


For my contradictions. I mean that every single forum has different norms for playing Mafia. I've never played on a forum where massive amount of question is the norm. To everyone. And so, I'm saying I'm not used to this style of mafia. On this forum. I'm quite used to mafia itself, however.

I also mean that I have never played this setup, and the jailkeeper is very different from the doctor, and will make a lot of what I do in other games hard to impossible. Such as cop outing, the doc protect. In this said mafia game, Cop outing is... Bad. Unless scum of course.

My suggestions, are what I believe should be done today, which was what you asked me, was it not?

Why should I not say strategies, that I think we should follow. I'm not just taking strategies from other mafia games I've played, I don't just randomly throw them out there. I did think about them, and decide which ones pertain to this game, and how I could make them better for this game.

Is that wrong?

For the NL. I don't think I really agree with whoever wrote that. D1's info never goes away. It's always there. Whenever you choose to use it, it's always there. It's just that, on D3, You also get D2's and D3's info to lynch on Lylo, While if you RL today, you get only D1's and D2's information to lynch on lylo. I believe having 3 days of information makes it better to get a read on someone, Seeing whether it is correct or not to lynch them.

Also, How is RL (and may I say, most likely mislynching) any better than NLing. So killing your own townie for the mafia>Mafia killing townie?

I gave you the pros and con's, as I see, ^ there. Right now, I believe NLing outweighs RLing.

Ok.
So you've never played a mafia game before?
Or at least this one.

So, please answer the question, What do you think we should do today?

Frankly, I feel like you guys think I am scum, purely on the fact that I play this differently from you guys, And you guys have never seen it played another way.

Let me give you an example. On another forum, Sometime ago (about a month) I was playing a mafia game. In the game, I was mafia... The setup, IMO, was horrendous, 9/2, Meaning, that townies got 2 Mislynches. There were also both doctor and cop inside the town.

Me, and one of the townies suggested Cop to out, especially on day 2, then have doc protect. I did the math, there was absolutely no way for the town to lose if the cop outted, unless, Cop died n1, doc died n2, or something horrible like that. However, of course, the town did not take the suggestion, and lost. During all this time, the Killed the other townie who suggested it, purely because he suggested it. Believing him to be scum, and trying to get the cop out in the open. In fact, it was a valid strategy, and a much better one than the town was using, because it gave you for sure's. Like X is For sure not scum, so ignore him, no matter how scummy he seems.

Frankly, the Town played badly, and people weren't very active. (another reason I won) However, people killed just because what someone suggested was foreign to them.

Take ^ how you want. I'm pleading for my case, because the two most active people in this game is after me, and I'm not mafia.

@MrZero

Yes pointing fingers is part of the mafia game, no pointing fingers without evidence is NOT part of the mafia game.

Where have I attached myself to the findings of others? The only spot you can say this, is where someone called you out on your first post, and I called you out on it myself, sometime later. I do believe that was scummy, and ...?

Yes, I don't have as much suspicion. But enlighten me, Why don't you want to tell me who you FOS, who you think is Town? That does not hurt anyone. And it give people much more insight, IMO, than the question you guys are asking. That is how I hunt scum, and you just refused to answer my question.

 ???

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day
Post by: Squill on September 29, 2013, 01:01:12 pm

@Superblackcat: This is not a game of self preservation. If you lynch a scum, great. If you lynch a townie, who voting for who can give a lot of information.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day
Post by: Lukeinator on September 29, 2013, 01:15:22 pm

Quote from: Imp on September 28, 2013, 07:18:44 pm

@Lukeinator:

This is a completely hypothetical pair of questions.   I understand you are a new player, as am I - but I'd still like your best answers please.


I want you to pretend that you are this game's Scum IC (Pretend that someone else has your player spot and happens to have answered exactly as you have so far).  You have access to the scum private chat, you know who the real scum players are, and it is your duty to give them the best advice you can towards winning the game for their side.  So far, these two players have not logged into the scum's chat, so they never got any of your advice - but they just have now and are both listening to you.

1) Pretend that the scum players whom you advise are Superblackcat and Kleril.  They ask you for advice about what they should do for the rest of the Day.  They also ask you for whom you think they should pick to Night Kill - and for who you recommend the Mafia Rolecop investigate.  What is your advice?

2)  Pretend that the scum players whom you advise are Rolepgeek and Mr.Zero.  They ask you for advice about what they should do for the rest of the Day.  They also ask you for whom you think they should pick to Night Kill - and for who you recommend the Mafia Rolecop investigate.  What is your advice?

I would tell them to chose someone who isn't the Rolecop, or a Mafia.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day
Post by: Superblackcat on September 29, 2013, 02:18:50 pm

Squill, I would prefer, and I think the town would prefer myself staying alive. It is self preservation, if they are trying to lynch you, and you know yourself to be a townie. Of course, Any mafia member would say the same.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day
Post by: Imp on September 29, 2013, 04:42:20 pm

@Superblackcat:

Hey there :)  I'll say first that I like you plenty.  You discuss feeling like "the two most active people in the game [are] after you" - one of them's surely me, and I promise you, I'm not only after you.  I'm after every player in the game, even griffinpup.  Especially griffinpup... grrrr.

One thing you do look like is pretty easy to pressure, and that you feel so much pressure you're maybe having a hard time doing anything but trying to defend yourself.  Presuming that you are Town, that doesn't help anyone but Scum.

I totally believe it is a mistake to focus purely on self defense.  Honestly, it doesn't -matter- if people are suspicious of you or not, even if they are certain and wrong.  You know your alignment.  No matter what your alignment is, even if you are lynched or night killed first, if your team wins, -you- win.  It would be nice to be still alive at the end of play, but none of us can be sure we will be - so don't let fear of 'what if' change 'what is', alright?  Right now IS, tomorrow's only going to be there for some of us, and that is guaranteed.

Play your very best, right now, because yeah, right now is maybe the only thing we have.  You might be dead by D2, and so might I.  That understanding affects my play.  I am giving my team everything I have -today-, because I may be unable to give my team anything after today.

You have shown us how really hard you will work to try and clear your name by trying to explain your innocence.  I could analyze your post and go over it detail by detail, comparing it to your earlier words and show were you make good Town points and where you still sound Scummy, but I don't think that helps overall.  I've already posted an analysis of your play recently.

If anyone besides yourself wants me to post another considering your innocence given your most recent posts, please ask for that.  Otherwise I'm going to assume that everyone else is happy with their own thoughts about you for now.

As I am certain you want to clear yourself of suspicion, Superblackcat, I'm going to tell you what you need to do to fully ease my concerns about you - you need to post in a way that allows me to understand from your viewpoint WHAT TO DO to win as town, especially in this specific game.  If you want to TELL US what to do, do it in a way that it could be followed with or without you remaining alive to continue to act on it yourself as the days progress.  The scum could pick you for nightkill, right?  And your help would be lost to us, so make sure we can understand and use your great plan to ensure a Town win, even if you are dead before Day 2.

But that's the far, far weaker way to ease my mind.  The strong and clear way is to SHOW US BY USING IT.  Of course, you have already been doing that, right?  From your very first post after play start, you are working towards a Town win the very best way you know how - step it up a bit, will you?  Your strategy is so unfamiliar to me, I can't understand it and I don't follow it as a way for Town to win.  I hear you say what not to do, and I see you not doing much of anything - better make it clearer fast WHAT TO DO to find these scum using your methods.  Be a bit more obvious and comprehensible, could you?  So that if the Scum catch on to what you are doing, at least Town has caught on too and can continue your great plan should you somehow be the first nightkill.

I am perfectly willing to support anyone's request for an extension still.

But don't feel too much pressure, alright?  I like you plenty.  I'm not even switching my vote to you now.

Unvote

@Lukeinator:

Wow guy.  I am disappoint.

Quote from: Lukeinator on September 29, 2013, 01:15:22 pm

I would tell them to chose someone who isn't the Rolecop, or a Mafia.

Right now, you look to me like a player who doesn't care or is trying to hide his newbieness.

Big clue - being a newbie in Beginner's Mafia isn't something you should try to hide.  Assume it's branded on your fingertips and shows through in your every post.  So don't try to hide it, don't try to avoid showing it, and ESPECIALLY don't try to make it the only message your words send.  What I want to know about you is are you newbie Town or newbie Scum.  I know you're newbie.

What I demand from you is action.

Quote from: Lukeinator on September 28, 2013, 12:01:23 pm

Quote from: Squill on September 28, 2013, 09:16:05 am

Also, if you could pick a side, would you pick Mafia or Townie?

Townie. Hunting is way more interesting than hiding to me.

Yay!  You've said one useful thing so far.  You've told us you are more interested in hunting than hiding.

Where is your hunt?  YOU ARE HIDING.  STOP HIDING.   Fear not, that you appear newbie.  Fear not, that you might make mistakes.  IF YOU ARE TOWN IT IS A WORSE MISTAKE TO SIT THERE SILENTLY.  If you are scum, you're doing great.  You look like a terrified newbie scummie, one who is so certain that anything he says will make it obvious he is scum, and he can't cope with that, so he'd rather sit there silently and make it obvious he is scum.

You dare say you prefer to hunt, but have been doing NO HUNTING?

Get up!  Get active!  If you're wrong be wrong.  At this point, you are so passive that if we mislynch you today, I will be glad!  OMGUS!  Get up!  Take action!  At this point you would actually be doing yourself a favor even if you utterly ignored my question that you so weakly and only partially answered but turned active and started hunting like you say you want to do!  Note that is NOT the best course of action - better would be to answer me as best you can AND started actively hunting like you claim you want to do.  NOTHING BUT YOU IS STOPPING YOU FROM HUNTING.

OMG, you reek so strongly of hiding newbie that I can only scream scum at the sight of you.  Your behavior feels to me like the only thing you think could make you look less like scum than posting is to just accept looking like scum through inaction, because you believe your play is so bad that any actions you take will look even scummier than inaction.

If you continue to play like you are, I will use every bit of persuasion, every bit of charisma, and every bit of logic I possess to try to convince this group of players that making you the first lynch is the best possible plan, even if that proves to be a mislynch.  After all, we're hunting two scum.   Even if we think we know who one of them is already, there's still the second - and wow, right now you look so much like a desperate scum that even if you are Town, you're helping to hide the real scum through your own laziness, fear, indecision, or whatever.  GET ACTIVE AND HUNT LIKE YOU CLAIM YOU WANT TO, OR GET OUT.  I will work with my fullest energy to remove you from play if you do not shape up, because even if you are Town, acting as you are helps only Scum and your behavior so far in this game is a blight upon it.  FIX IT OR BEGONE.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day
Post by: Squill on September 29, 2013, 05:27:30 pm

Is there such a thing as voting, not to pressure for scumtells, but to pressure for activity?
'Cus I think that's what may be about to happen.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day
Post by: Tiruin on September 29, 2013, 08:31:13 pm

ZU: Spoilspec please-if only to give access to deadchat, thanks. :P

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day
Post by: kleril on September 29, 2013, 08:40:15 pm

Sorry I've been posting so little this past day / day and a half. I've spent most of it in transit and with family, and so my ability to follow the game had been hindered. I should be able to post a lot more now.

@Imp:
I'm not sure if it's the smart thing to do, but I think you deserve an Unvote.

Quote from: Imp on September 28, 2013, 05:02:19 am

You called my vote on Deathsword "going along with the bandwagon" first, and maybe that was just a misuse of terminology.  Other people, including the IC voice, disagreed with that choice of words

This is quite possible. Considering this is my first game of mafia to take place on a forums, the feel is quite different. The first supporter of an accusation (not accuser, mind you) in my experience has tended to be scum rather than town, although this is usually simply a well placed nod or grunt meant to subtly sway the group, rather than a formal accusation.
My lack of response was to try and let you react, and considering you've been more inquisitive rather than defensive over this, it has put me somewhat at ease in my suspicion.

Hopefully this clears up the issues Zero and Death had with my previous post.

Imp, I do not believe that you are scum. Really, you have me completely convinced that you are town, and that's what I'm wary about. Your words have a lot of sway, and it scares me.

This is your first game of mafia?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day
Post by: Rolepgeek on September 29, 2013, 09:44:08 pm

Quote from: Superblackcat on September 26, 2013, 10:54:49 pm

@Rolepeek No, but I think the questions should be relevant to the game, instead of random questions like you guys are asking, and the massive amounts of questions.

Do you still think that the questions are irrelevant to the game? Do you think fewer questions should be asked? Fewer questions means less information, even if it's just white noise, which helps the scum. Even seemingly unrelated questions can be sifted through for information. Why would you want that to happen? That is, if I'm not misunderstanding you.

As for your comments about a D1 NoLynch, I would disagree. Only on paper is it better. While there is that single extra Day of info from a no lynch, that doesn't actually have to deal with quantity of information, and without a lynch, votes, what they turned up as, and then the 'free' nightkill, Town is at a disadvantage.

Quote from: Imp on September 27, 2013, 12:40:23 am

?

Quote from: Rolepgeek on September 26, 2013, 09:48:02 pm

@Imp - Why do you think that an IC would use their IC powers to try and fool town?

Rolepgeek:  Oh, I don't.  Far as I understand, that would be breaking the rules as well - if it's not, please correct me, that would change how I think about the game.

As of now, I currently trust an IC voice in the game completely.  I am jaw-droppingly astonished that the person behind the IC voice who strongly instructed 'quote when you respond' is - not following that IC direction as a player.  Astonishing enough that I wondered why he would not do so, considering the length of his first PFP was quite long and very well worded, appearing to be something which he'd worked on for some time, and in general supports that he is an involved and intentioned player.

That first in-play post from Deathsword includes a length of strikethrough, use of color, even includes use of {} which are perhaps not conveniently placed characters to find on a phonepad.  If quoting when PFP is hard, well, there's no rush to answer; he could hold his replies for a more convienient time.

It is possible that he has no convenient time ever, sure.  But just days before the game started Deathsword used a set of quotes in a post in this very thread -

Quote from: Deathsword on September 23, 2013, 07:31:57 pm

Quote from: Deathsword on September 16, 2013, 08:01:09 am

IC in, seeing as you need one.

Quote from: Nerjin on September 16, 2013, 04:13:39 pm

IC out

I'm starting a new job and am not entirely sure how much time I'll be having for a full on mafia game. I'll still be watching.

ZU, you seem to have missed those posts.

Thinking about what I have observed and spoken of, it makes no sense for him to do if he is Town, and little sense for him to do as Scum.  Thus I am not convinced that he, as a player, is Scum, though I am suspicious.  But as these contradictions make completely no sense to me in considering him as a Town member, and I'm not more suspicious of anyone else at this point, I feel comfortable for now in my vote.

I am willing to unvote if someone else seems significantly more suspicious, or if I come to understand that what seems wrong to me about Deathsword's actions is actually quite reasonable and what a conscientious Town member would do.  And if what seems wrong to me doesn't seem wrong to anyone else, by all means, vote as you seem fit.  Just say why, please, unless it's random - I'd like to understand and see what anyone thinks they see.

I still absolutely trust Deathsword as IC though - I don't think he's using anything IC to try and fool town or otherwise abuse IC.

All right, Unvote. I looked at your huge topic about something that doesn't have to do with him being scum or not, and to me it seems like a giant misdirect. It doesn't have to do with scum-hunting, it has to do with behavior and/or etiquette, and you take things out of context to try and make a point. Sorry Imp, but you're being a bit fallacious in reasoning in that case. You go on to ask strange questions about highly specific scenarios in a different post, which is fine and dandy except that they're so specific there stops being a point to them. If they were more vague, you could glean info about their playstyle and general demeanor, perhaps, but right now it just looks like active-lurking. Yeah, you're asking questions, and yeah, they're related to the game, but they don't actually help anyone.

Quote from: Mr.Zero on September 27, 2013, 03:08:51 am

Quote from: Rolepgeek on September 26, 2013, 09:48:02 pm

@Mr.Zero - You're asking awfully in depth questions for hypothetical scenarios. Are you trying to learn what someone would do if they were scum so you can fake it?

Hypothetical scenario's don't have a limit, they can be as big as you can think them up, though it can and will get tiresome for the questioned one to answer it. But the more you know about the thought process of a player, the more you'll be able to understand his/her reasoning. This can increase your judgment abilities as you will be able to pinpoint more precisely if the said player is scum or not.

True. But on the other hand, you can't be sure they're telling the truth, nor can you be sure you understand their thought process. Plus, from what I can tell, I just don't think it really has to do with someone being scum or not. After all, all you can be sure of is that if what they responded with happens, it's not them, or it is them and they're stupid, or it is them and they're incredibly clever. It just seems pointless at a certain point to ask such specific questions. But, I can see why you did it.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day
Post by: Superblackcat on September 29, 2013, 10:41:21 pm

Quote from: Superblackcat on September 27, 2013, 06:19:41 pm

@All Could everyone list out their top FOSes (If you have more than one as of now) and top TOWNies (If you have more than one)

That's what I want to happen right now. Any and all active people/ nonactive people who happen to see this. Go and reread, figure out who your top FOS, and your top Town Tells are. Give a reason.

The only person who responded to this, MrZero, Blew it off. There is no reason to hide it, yet he is trying to hide it.


Top FOS: MrZero, Because he asked a very funny at the beginning (or a few) and then blew this question off, while showing that he saw it, seems like He is trying to hide who he wants dead.

Griffinup- IC's in and then Noshow.

Deathsword- No activity after being voted... Seems kinda like lurk...

Top Town: Squill - I like his reasoning thus far, and the way he responded to me does not sound like mafia. Mafia wouldn't care if I was self preserving.


Others:

kleril doesn't seem scum, but He hasn't had enough activity of the late for me to tell...

I agree with what kleril said about Imp.

Lukeinator, I agree with Imp, the answer was highly lacking.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
I'm guessing since I didn't give it a full post, and it was at the bottom, people skipped over it.
-----------------------------------------------------------------

@Luke, What do you think should be done today, What should we be doing, Who do you think is mafia?

@Imp, Please answer my earlier question.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day
Post by: Superblackcat on September 29, 2013, 10:46:31 pm

My bad, Deathsword became inactive 2days and 8 hours ago, However, not directly after vote. He became inactive after me and Imp had large walls of text.

His last activity on the forum is today.


Please say something Death.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day
Post by: Imp on September 29, 2013, 10:53:37 pm

@Kleril:

Quote from: kleril on September 29, 2013, 08:40:15 pm

Sorry I've been posting so little this past day / day and a half. I've spent most of it in transit and with family, and so my ability to follow the game had been hindered.

The OP gives me the feel that 'weekends are time off from Mafia if you want,' because of this:

Quote from: zombie urist on August 30, 2013, 03:13:49 pm

• Day/Night Length - Days will last 72 hours, excluding weekends. Nights will last 24 hours, or until all night actions are received. Neither of these include weekends.

So I don't hold anyone's inactivity during the weekend as having any meaning.  I personally have a bit more free time on the weekends than weekdays, so if people besides me are willing/able to play on the 'off time', fantastic.

An aside at @Lukeinator:

Yep, that means I won't be even angrier at you if you haven't started trying to hunt before Monday.  After Monday?  If you keep acting like 'Scared-Silent Scum' past Monday, I'm going to want to see what secrets your entrails have.   If I have my way, we won't just lynch you - you're getting fully hung, drawn, and quartered (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanged,_drawn_and_quartered). 

Err, back to you now, Kleril.

Anyway, I'm going to guess that you felt rushed in answering me, because you.... really kinda didn't.  At -all-.  I scare you?  You are scaring me too.

Quote from: kleril on September 29, 2013, 08:40:15 pm

Hopefully this clears up the issues Zero and Death had with my previous post.

How about the issues I had?  I spelled them out for you.  You still haven't answered my first question about it:

Quote from: Imp on September 27, 2013, 12:40:23 am

Kleril:  What bandwagon does my vote seem to be going along with?

You sort of talk about it here....

Quote from: kleril on September 29, 2013, 08:40:15 pm

The first supporter of an accusation (not accuser, mind you)

But that does not answer my question.  Supporting an accusation, I would agree that is at least potentially bandwagoning.  But you reword your statement rather than answer.  But I didn't ask what you meant by bandwagoning, or what bandwagoning meant.

Quote from: kleril on September 29, 2013, 08:40:15 pm

My lack of response was to try and let you react, and considering you've been more inquisitive rather than defensive over this, it has put me somewhat at ease in my suspicion.

(14 words later)

Imp, I do not believe that you are scum. Really, you have me completely convinced that you are town

Even if I ignore the clash between your "it has put me somewhat at ease in my suspicion" and the almost instantly following "I do not believe that you are scum. Really, you have me completely convinced" as maybe just being how you talk (the two are extremely different things, right?)

I am interested in if you really are Town or not, and rather less interested in if you are convinced I am Town - except that there are two players who are sure who is and isn't Town.  Are you sure you're convinced I am Town?

Instead of answering my question, in your reply what I notice instead is that you unvote me (without voting for anyone else), you answer a question no one asked (while still not answering the question you were asked), say that you're sure I'm Town and you're wary about it, and that my convincing way of speaking is scaring you.  That's really hard to ignore - Isn't that Scum reasoning?  Why would a Town player be scared of someone they are convinced is also a Town player?  Why does my words having a lot of sway (do they?  Over you?  Over everyone?) scare you, especially if you -are- sure I am Town?

Quote from: kleril on September 29, 2013, 08:40:15 pm

This is your first game of mafia?

Yes.

@Rolepgeek:

Good points.  At the time, it was the only thing I saw to challenge him, or anyone, about.  And to me, saying, or maybe especially {saying}, do something, in a way that sounds like everyone should do it, and then not doing it yourself is glaringly wrong.  It's almost the same thing as lying and it is a type of manipulation of the rest of us.  Not IC manipulation, but a shocking choice to make as a player, to choose to blithely and obliviously ignore his own {IC} instruction.

And I am not against manipulation of course - but I saw and see no way that his player-manipulation of us all could help find Scum.  I saw no reason for it, it still jars me, and it still seems wrong.  It may always bother me - but game goes on.  So I challenged him on it, and our interactions played out as it went.  Despite being distracted by his to me incomprehensible choices, which I still feel unsure the meaning of (Why would he do it?  As Town or as Scum, I still don't understand the benefit to his side either way), I remain highly interested in finding the real scum through any means possible, and watch and challenge every player as best as I can think how to with the intention of better revealing their motivations and thought processes, be those of Town or Scum.

Which does lead to your second concern.  You didn't really ask me anything, but before I explain anything about my questions or questioning style I'd like to ask you this:  Do you perceive all of my questions to be of the active-lurking sort, or are you are specifically speaking about a specific subset of my questions?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day
Post by: Imp on September 30, 2013, 12:26:57 am

Quote from: Superblackcat on September 29, 2013, 10:41:21 pm

@Imp, Please answer my earlier question.

This one?

Quote from: Superblackcat on September 27, 2013, 06:19:41 pm

@All Could everyone list out their top FOSes (If you have more than one as of now) and top TOWNies (If you have more than one)

Actually, I'm the only one who gave you a positive answer.  You're right about....

Quote from: Superblackcat on September 29, 2013, 10:41:21 pm

The only person who responded to this, MrZero

... having -directly- responded to it, though he gave you a negative answer; you might call that blowing you off.  In my post here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4642894#msg4642894), which was made after, and to a small extent because of your asking this question...

Quote from: Superblackcat on September 27, 2013, 06:19:41 pm

@All Could everyone list out their top FOSes (If you have more than one as of now) and top TOWNies (If you have more than one)

... of course, I do not -say- I am answering your question, I simply do so, without putting them in any specific order other than what makes sense to me to speak of each with, with great detail, and with the addition of a great many additional pieces of information, all suiting my purpose towards each individual I speak of.  My answer to you is indirect, apparently completely missed - but I did answer you, and very, very fully.  Very possibly more detail than you want to hear, but then again I am verbose. 

But you do not feel answered... I do wonder, are Scum more interested in a clear, consise, and in order list of how the other players feel about everyone than Town players are?


Superblackcat:  If you're in this hole by mistake, I'd really like to see you jump out of it.  If you're in this hole because you're all kinds of Scummy, I still want to see you get out of it, so by all means, looking forward to your answers.

I made a post (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4647305#msg4647305) asking you a few more questions.  Instead of including any answer to them in your next reply afterwards (made a full 6 hours later), you make no reference to it or my questions; maybe you didn't read it before posting this (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4648150#msg4648150).  That happens, I now understand how a player could work for 6+ hours on a single post in this game and not want to read and include responses to the posts that were added since they started... but this makes me expect that you didn't read anything after my most recent post to you either.

In fact I'm really interested because I find evidence that you read (or otherwise knew the information that would be in) one of the posts (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4647868#msg4647868) made after I made my last post to you - 4 hours after mine to you, 2 hours before your response in fact.  By itself, it's not damning of course, but as yet another piece of information, wowsers.

I'm trying really hard to think of any reason why you'd read Kleril's post directed at me before and instead of reading my post directed at you... or, if you'd read both, why you'd talk about Kleril's post to me in yours without saying ONE WORD about my post to you as well.

Quote from: Superblackcat on September 29, 2013, 10:41:21 pm

I agree with what kleril said about Imp.

It would have been SO HELPFUL if you'd told us specifically what Kleril said about me that you were agreeing with.

Before his most recent post, Kleril votes me.  If you agree with him from then, why am I not on your list of Scum picks?  For that matter, if you agree with his most recent post, why am I not on your list of town picks?

Why am I not on your list of town picks...

Why...

Did you answer that question in your thread already?  When you say

Quote from: Superblackcat on September 29, 2013, 10:41:21 pm

Top FOS: MrZero ... seems like He is trying to hide who he wants dead.

Does this mean that you believe that Scum try to hide who they want dead?  Am I a hidden part of your Town list?

Why does your Others: list include only Kleril?

Why is one of your top scum picks griffinpup, who was off the forums from days before the game began (and thus possibly unaware of what his role is), and who had not logged back into the forum AT ALL as of three days after game start? (I checked on him when I wrote my answer to your question about who we think are Scum and Town - he was active yesterday though, so he is back now, though still silent in our game).  Statistically, any player had a 1/9 chance of starting off as a Scum... No one else who is active, not even Deathsword who you list as being next scummiest, seems more likely to be scum than someone with only an initial 1/9 chance of being Scum, really?

You correct your post... to change the details you say about Deathsword's suspicious behavior.  You change it from 'no activity after being voted' to 'became inactive after me and Imp had large walls of text'.  Having changed your identification of his suspicious behavior, you don't feel any need to change how suspicious he is or isn't?  It's highly and equally suspicious to go inactive after either reason, really?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day
Post by: zombie urist on September 30, 2013, 01:52:04 am

DAY MOD-EXTENDED

Day 1 will end Tuesday, October 2nd at 9 PM.

Votecount
Imp - Rolepgeek
Squill -
lukeinator - Imp
Rolepgeek -
kleril - Deathsword
superblackcat - Mr.Zero
Mr.Zero -
Deathsword
griffinpup -

No lynch -
Not voting - Squill, lukeinator, superblackcat, griffinpup

0 votes to extend. 4 needed to extend
0 votes to shorten 5 needed to shorten

Quote from: Imp on September 28, 2013, 05:02:19 am

Quote from: zombie urist on September 28, 2013, 01:57:56 am

Day 1 will end Tuesday, October 1st at 9 PM.
Day 1 will end in about 9 hours.
griffinpup has been prodded again.

Err, does that 'Day 1 will end in about 9 hours' belong in this post still?  While I'm wondering about time, Day 1 ends at 9 PM in which timezone?
Is it even possible to replace our IC griffinpup, as there are no IC replacements waitlisted?  What happens if it is not possible?

Nope. Day now ends October 2nd 9 PM PST.
griffinpup said he'll post soon and if he doesn't I'll have to beg someone to replace him.

I'm extending the day by one day because I have a midterm on Wednesday. Also the midterm is scheduled to end at 9 PM so day might end slightly later than that.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day
Post by: Imp on September 30, 2013, 02:05:06 am

@zombie urist:

Quote from: zombie urist on September 30, 2013, 01:52:04 am

DAY MOD-EXTENDED
0 votes to extend. 4 needed to extend
I'm extending the day by one day because I have a midterm on Wednesday. Also the midterm is scheduled to end at 9 PM so day might end slightly later than that.

Just in case you missed it, there were two Extend votes placed -

Quote from: Superblackcat on September 29, 2013, 12:36:55 pm

Speaking of that.

Extend more!

Quote from: Imp on September 29, 2013, 04:42:20 pm

I am perfectly willing to support anyone's request for an extension still.

Unless you reset the count to 0 when you Mod-extended?

@all:
I remain open to supporting anyone's request for an extension if anyone wants an even longer day, especially as Griffinpup/Griffinpup's replacement will be joining us soon.... but still not yet.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day
Post by: Mr.Zero on September 30, 2013, 02:12:22 am

Extend, crunching up something atm but you happened to ask for it.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day
Post by: Mr.Zero on September 30, 2013, 03:42:19 am

@Superblackcat

Quote from: Superblackcat on September 29, 2013, 10:41:21 pm

The only person who responded to this, MrZero, Blew it off. There is no reason to hide it, yet he is trying to hide it.
Top FOS: MrZero, Because he asked a very funny at the beginning (or a few) and then blew this question off, while showing that he saw it, seems like He is trying to hide who he wants dead.

Yes i blew it off, but then again. A lot of people didn't even bother to answer that question, Imp did, if you would've taken the time to read his posts. (Imp i love your writing style, shame my english sucks a bit.)

I gave you my top FoS, which happens to be you. I suppose i could give out my top town which is Rolepgeek.

Quote from: Superblackcat on September 29, 2013, 12:36:55 pm

Frankly, Looking at Mr Zero's question, He was attacking me for one of my answer's, which was a response to all the questions asked at the beginning of the game. Which were mostly, How come you play mafia?, How did you do last game? And other questions such as that. I personally believe those to be useless, and as you can see, I am participating within the question asking. However, I'm not asking questions, that you ask, such as "What would you do if X?". Throughout my time playing mafia, I have not found it particularly useful. I believe the first half of the question to be Meta, which would bias people wrongly, especially if they were actually mafia last game. No matter how hard it is not to be biased, they would be. That's why I try to ignore all posts that ask those questions.

Who are you to disregard the importance of a question? If you were a person like Jim Grooverster (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?action=profile;u=15719), then yes you could say 'fuck this question', but ONLY because he has played mafia for so long that he knows what's important and what's not.

I do agree however that some questions are of little importance, like 'Favorite color, role,etc', even then it does not hurt to answer the question. But in my opinion i asked reasonable questions which at the very least could receive a one line response.

Quote from: Superblackcat on September 29, 2013, 12:36:55 pm

Stuff about NL being the best choice of action.

That looks like a tempting suggestion, however there are a couple of problems i have with that suggestion.

ALL votes lose their pressuring-power. From my past experience voting pressure is THE best way to crack people and find scum and this (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4646604#msg4646604).

So with the town having lost their voting pressure, we are left with a few tools of finding scum. Half of which we even cannot use correctly like properly scum hunting due to the BM thing. The only pressure left is the cop, if there is one at all. The cop has to reveal his findings in a way that it doesn't get him Nk'ed, or he has to roleclaim. Both scenario's result in a town disadvantage if not played correctly, which i assure you, will not be played correctly.

Quote from: Superblackcat on September 29, 2013, 12:36:55 pm

For my contradictions. I mean that every single forum has different norms for playing Mafia. I've never played on a forum where massive amount of question is the norm. To everyone. And so, I'm saying I'm not used to this style of mafia. On this forum. I'm quite used to mafia itself, however.

I also mean that I have never played this setup, and the jailkeeper is very different from the doctor, and will make a lot of what I do in other games hard to impossible. Such as cop outing, the doc protect. In this said mafia game, Cop outing is... Bad. Unless scum of course.

Here you speak again of this mafia being different. Alright, we get it. Understand that we ourselves aren't exactly familiar with it as well. So mentioning inexperience is not a valid defense in my view, no matter if it's your first,second or even third time.

Quote from: Superblackcat on September 29, 2013, 12:36:55 pm

Take ^ how you want. I'm pleading for my case, because the two most active people in this game is after me, and I'm not mafia.

Neither am i, but so far you 'seem' the most scum-like because of the way you play, which is kind passive/defensive with the occasional question to look like you're not doing nothing.

Quote from: Superblackcat on September 29, 2013, 12:36:55 pm

@MrZero

-snip-

Where have I attached myself to the findings of others? The only spot you can say this, is where someone called you out on your first post, and I called you out on it myself, sometime later. I do believe that was scummy, and ...?

I've meant to say "trying to", pardon me if this has caused any confusion. Anyhow, the underlined part. Are you claiming that you aren't even trying to do that?

Quote from: Superblackcat on September 29, 2013, 12:36:55 pm

Yes, I don't have as much suspicion. But enlighten me, Why don't you want to tell me who you FOS, who you think is Town? That does not hurt anyone. And it give people much more insight, IMO, than the question you guys are asking. That is how I hunt scum, and you just refused to answer my question.

 ???

See earlier answer. But now, i can ask this.

Why didn't you answer some of the questions you considered 'dumb'? It gives people so much more insight,while irrelevant to you, it is relevant to them.



More maybe to come, sifting trough some other posts.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day
Post by: Mr.Zero on September 30, 2013, 03:44:27 am

Err to add to my previous post, i didn't underline the entire first sentence.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day
Post by: Squill on September 30, 2013, 02:49:58 pm

Quote from: Squill on September 29, 2013, 10:25:48 am

@Imp:
1: Probably you, as you are by far the one who posts the most. It means that you are either a. A scum, furiously working to appear useful to the town, or b., a townie who is extremely active, and very aggressive with pressuring; which makes you seem like an important target for scum, and a large loss to town if you are killed.

2: I'm still thinking about this one, I'll get back when I figure something out.

@Imp: Crap, sorry, I forgot about this.  I'd still have to say you, as you are either a deceptive scum or an important townie.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day
Post by: zombie urist on September 30, 2013, 02:53:33 pm

Day extended to Thursday, October 3rd at 9pm PST

Quote from: Imp on September 30, 2013, 02:05:06 am

Just in case you missed it, there were two Extend votes placed -

Yeah I missed it.  :-[

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day
Post by: Lukeinator on September 30, 2013, 05:41:21 pm

Quote from: Superblackcat on September 29, 2013, 10:41:21 pm

@Luke, What do you think should be done today, What should we be doing, Who do you think is Scum?

To be honest, I think what should be done is to not lynch anybody, and see who survives the night, but I don't think I will. As for Scum Imp seems pretty suspicious, lynching people for not having a lot of time on one night.


@Imp: If you have won any other games, were town or scum and what game was it?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day
Post by: Imp on September 30, 2013, 07:01:46 pm

Quote from: kleril on September 29, 2013, 08:40:15 pm

This is your first game of mafia?

Quote from: Lukeinator on September 30, 2013, 05:41:21 pm

@Imp: If you have won any other games, were town or scum and what game was it?

I have never before played Mafia, not by forum, in person, or any other means.  Nor Epic Mafia, nor Mafia by any other name.

The question you and a few other people may be working towards asking is this:  Imp, if you've never played Mafia before, why and how are you playing like you are?

The answer to that one is I'm very much not new to situations requiring me to evaluate and manipulate crowd behavior to pick out the intentions of those in the crowd, and help direct the behavior of the group.  At one time I worked as a restaurant manager (and caught employee theives as well as picked out people intending to harrass other customers, walk out on their bills, and otherwise ready to explode and needing tlc; I've been ready to stop that stuff right at the beginning of trouble because I noticed hints of it starting to happen before situations exploded, and I am simply always watching), at one time I worked as a telemarketer (you think we're supicious of each other in this game?  Try that job for a few years, EVERYONE REALLY REALLY HATES YOU, and you're expected to work through that to convince people to spend money the way you suggest despite it being so very, very easy just to hang up), and I've actually been in a few real life situations where I and others around me could have died if the situations were not handled by someone, and hey, I'm someone and I really don't want to die or watch others die.  I was an abused child and went through years of therapy; I've played a lot of D&D, as well as ran quite a few games;  I've played a LOT of all sorts of games in general, some of which have involved deception and detection of that in one way or another as part of play, and I'm around 40 (life experience quantity) and utterly fascinated by psychology and behavior, both my own and others, and am highly interested in a lot of the rest of life too.

In shortest - I'm a newbie playing like this because I'm me, and currently absolutely fascinated by this new to me game.  It's getting my all, rawr!

@Lukeinator:

Quote from: Lukeinator on September 30, 2013, 05:41:21 pm

Imp ... lynching people for not having a lot of time on one night.

*snort*  Good, you've got some spirit.  First off, I voted for you, but I can't lynch you, most 100% certainly not by myself.  Second, Pick any 'night' (we're talking real life nights right?) that you didn't have a lot of time on.  Write your inactivity and lackluster attempts to scum hunt completely off for that ONE NIGHT - now, what about all the other nights that we've had since the game started?

Or do you just mean that 'by Monday night' I specified?  Ehh, get active, guy.  Just start doing something, anything; in this game the only player who looks lazier than you right now is Griffinpup.  Grrrrrrrrrrrr, Griffinpup.

Big clue - I can't lynch you by myself, no matter what.  However, I've stated that I'm going to try and get everyone to agree that you should be first lynch - IF YOU DON'T START HUNTING - because you're acting like silent-hiding scum.  Now, do I -really really really mean it-?  For now, I leave you to guess.  Am I using pressure to try and get you to stop hiding/attempt to convince, persuade, and/or provoke you to be active?  YES

Course, if you stop acting like silent-hiding scum, then you won't look like one.  The true Townies won't have to wonder anymore about what a great hiding spot your position has been and continues to be.  Won't have to wonder about how little you've been contributing to the scumhunt.  So stand up and get to helping.  Whoever Town is, Town need -everyone's- help.  If you're Town, act like it.  As is, you seem Scum or a Townie so terribly passive, you're a waste of a lynch but a needed lynch none-the-less.  Am I convinced you should be our first lynch?  Again, for now, not going to confirm that.  You really want to find out?  Keep acting like a little-scared-hiding Scum.  But that won't be good for Town, if you are Town.

I don't care who you hunt.  Hunt me, sure.  I recommend you don't -only- hunt me, but you SHOULD be suspicious and actively hunting, period.  That you are not makes me extremely suspicious of you.  Needlessly?  Nope, there's need.  But your behavior can help a lot, if you change it.

@zombie_urist:
About that Griffinpup - we've had to do without that player, be he Town or Scum, for almost a full week of discussion now.  I don't know what 'soon' means, but his continued absence is making my strategies and plans feel all weird.  Is there any chance you might consider a modkill, considering the sheer length of time his spot has been utterly silent?  This game really feels to me now like there's only 8 players, not 9.

@Squill:

Quote from: Squill on September 25, 2013, 03:32:41 pm

I'll make sure to do some questions at some point, but for now I'm just answering questions while I'm at my computer.

"At some point"?  Umm... which one are you waiting for, exactly?  How many is "some questions"? 

Also....

Quote from: Squill on September 27, 2013, 05:01:28 pm

Until I notice something that seems suspicious, I'm just going to try and avoid causing more confusion than is necessary.

Do you mean you feel that Town is better served by your active attempts to avoid confusion, rather than your active attempts to try to scum hunt?

How do you feel about your scumhunting in this game?  Are you satisfied with how much your actions are helping Town as a whole?

And... lunch break's over.  Back to work I go.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day
Post by: Squill on September 30, 2013, 07:22:25 pm

Quote from: Lukeinator on September 30, 2013, 05:41:21 pm

Quote from: Superblackcat on September 29, 2013, 10:41:21 pm

@Luke, What do you think should be done today, What should we be doing, Who do you think is Scum?

To be honest, I think what should be done is to not lynch anybody, and see who survives the night, but I don't think I will. As for Scum Imp seems pretty suspicious, lynching people for not having a lot of time on one night.

@Lukeinator: Where's your actual evidence? He has no way to know your schedule, and even on other nights you have been fairly inactive, even more so than me. To me, that really doesn't make Imp see suspicious, but right now it looks like the only reason you think he is suspicious because he's pressuring you.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day
Post by: kleril on September 30, 2013, 08:50:38 pm

I'd be down for an extend as well.

@Imp

Quote from: Imp on September 27, 2013, 12:40:23 am

Kleril:  What bandwagon does my vote seem to be going along with?

Alright, I figured out why my behavior has seemed so strange and unexplained. I screwed up and thought the vote Deathsword had placed was in fact a vote against him, and so when you voted for him after his, I thought you were placing a second vote against him. Please excuse my stupidity.

Quick @ZU: Could you maybe change the formatting on the vote count to make it a little clearer who's voting for who?

Back to
@Imp:

Quote from: Imp on September 29, 2013, 10:53:37 pm

That's really hard to ignore - Isn't that Scum reasoning?  Why would a Town player be scared of someone they are convinced is also a Town player?

I mean to say that you've eradicated any gut feeling I have about your being scum, and so on a subconscious level I believe you are town. On the other hand, this is making alarm bells go off in my conscious mind that if you are scum, then we're screwed, because of how trustworthy you feel. I don't believe anyone town will be trying to vote you off from this point forward, and this may be our downfall.

@Deathsword:
Where've you run off to? Your activity has been pretty low the past little while.
What do you think about how this current game is playing out?

@Rolepgeek:
Same goes for you, bud.
Question: What do you think the best way to contribute as town is?


@Luke:

Quote from: Lukeinator on September 29, 2013, 01:15:22 pm

Quote from: Imp on September 28, 2013, 07:18:44 pm

@Lukeinator:

This is a completely hypothetical pair of questions...[snip]

I would tell them to chose someone who isn't the Rolecop, or a Mafia.

Can you try to actually answer this question, and not blow it off like this?

@Blackcat:

Quote from: Superblackcat on September 29, 2013, 10:41:21 pm

Quote from: Superblackcat on September 27, 2013, 06:19:41 pm

@All Could everyone list out their top FOSes (If you have more than one as of now) and top TOWNies (If you have more than one)

Top FOS: MrZero, Because he asked a very funny at the beginning (or a few) and then blew this question off, while showing that he saw it, seems like He is trying to hide who he wants dead.

Why are you attacking JUST zero for blowing this question off? It's fair to assume that most of us have seen it, and almost a guarantee for the more active posters here.

Quote from: Superblackcat on September 29, 2013, 10:41:21 pm

I agree with what kleril said about Imp.

Care to be a little more specific as to what you agree with?

@All: What have you enjoyed most, so far, of this current game?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day
Post by: Rolepgeek on September 30, 2013, 09:59:55 pm

Gah. Sorry. I have like two minutes to do this. I got a girlfriend. >.> I really wish I could respond, but when I say two minutes, I mean my internet will shut down in two minutes, and I'd rather not give hasty answers, and I'd rather not not post. I'll vote for an extend, too.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day
Post by: zombie urist on September 30, 2013, 10:07:58 pm

Quote from: kleril on September 30, 2013, 08:50:38 pm

Quick @ZU: Could you maybe change the formatting on the vote count to make it a little clearer who's voting for who?

No because this is the way all votecounts are done.

Quote from: Imp on September 30, 2013, 07:01:46 pm

@zombie_urist:
About that Griffinpup - we've had to do without that player, be he Town or Scum, for almost a full week of discussion now.  I don't know what 'soon' means, but his continued absence is making my strategies and plans feel all weird.  Is there any chance you might consider a modkill, considering the sheer length of time his spot has been utterly silent?  This game really feels to me now like there's only 8 players, not 9.

Yeah he's now up for replace.

2 votes to extend.
Please note day has already been extended to Thursday.

griffinpup is up for replace

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day
Post by: Rolepgeek on September 30, 2013, 10:24:11 pm

Alright, well, as a stopgap measure I'm gonna try to answer questions at the least on my IPad.

So first off, Griffinpup, Lukeinator, and I think some others haven't answered my questions. Boy acted just like how griffinpup is currently acting last game, so from what I know, I'm forced to have suspicions. Squill avoided the question without really answering it.

As for top townies(since I may as well answer his question while I'm at it), I don't really have one. Superblackcat is being overly defensive and avoiding answering questions, Mr. Zero isn't really doing much to hunt, getting hung up on semantics and people not answering little questions.

@kleril, since your post is right above mine, I don't think I really need to quote. Plus, it's overly difficult on a touch screen. I hate touch screens. Anyway. Best way to contribute as town is probably to pressure a few people for a long time, if you can, and switch if necessary if people become suspicious. Just put as much pressure as you can on as many people as you can (and feel you need to; if only two guys are even vaguely scummy, no real need to pressure every single person, after all(but still pressure a few others)), and wait for someone to break. Of course, most people don't have hours to spend as is requires, so they pressure a couple of people decently well and the slack is made up for by everyone contributing.

As a note, I tend to ignore questions directed to everyone, not on purpose, but because when I skim looking for my name, that doesn't have it. But I'll try from now on. So far, in this current game, I've been liking the sheer amount of activity from Imp and Mr. Zero and kleril and so on. Mostly because it's amusing to see how all of you get hung up on semantic things. Different playstyles, perhaps.

Imp, you still keep taking stuff out of context. Stop it. He was on a phone, which is harder than an I-pad, and it's difficult on this(which is why I prefer by far to use my comp), so you need to get over it. He's not trying to manipulate us with the IC voice, and I think we can agree that being hypocritical on purpose with his IC voice would count as abusing it. So, I think that unless you're trying to say that he is, in fact, abusing it, that he's not trying t manipulate us. Only the latent lurking is preventing him from being my top town idea-thing.

Fake edit: damnit, now kleril isn't right above me.

Quote from: kleril on September 30, 2013, 08:50:38 pm

Where've you run off to? Your activity has been pretty low the past little while.

@Rolepgeek:
Same goes for you, bud.
Question: What do you think the best way to contribute as town is?

@All: What have you enjoyed most, so far, of this current game?

Here's what I'm referring to.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day
Post by: zombie urist on October 01, 2013, 12:32:34 am

Day 1 will end Thursday, October 4th at 9 PM.

Votecount
Imp - Rolepgeek
Squill -
lukeinator - Imp, Squill
Rolepgeek -
kleril - Deathsword
superblackcat - Mr.Zero
Mr.Zero -
Deathsword -
griffinpup -

No lynch -
Not voting - lukeinator, superblackcat, griffinpup

2 votes to extend. 4 needed to extend
0 votes to shorten 5 needed to shorten

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia-Cargo Bay,First Day - IC Replacement needed!
Post by: Superblackcat on October 01, 2013, 02:02:54 am

Imp this one:

Quote

So, please answer the question, What do you think we should do today?

I'm pretty sure there was more context around it, It was on page 7.


MrZero, I don't like playing with meta.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia-Cargo Bay,First Day - IC Replacement needed!
Post by: Superblackcat on October 01, 2013, 02:05:13 am

Oh crap, Also, I was not able to read through most of the posts.

However, I saw that people were asking me as to why I want them to list their Top FOSes, and TOWN tells, Frankly, I find that the best way to hunt scum, especially once people are listed out, and someone dies, you can go back, and see clearly what their opinion on stuff where. And make whatever conclusions necessary.

Also, it brings back bits of details that you may have missed, and someone else caught, and included in their FOSes. I don't see any negative things about it.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia-Cargo Bay,First Day - IC Replacement needed!
Post by: Imp on October 01, 2013, 04:06:07 am

@Rolepgeek:

I had stopped it, as of post #69.  You reopened it with post #102 and included it as one of two reasons why I earned your vote.

When I challenge someone's behavior, I want to see their response.  You say 'stop it' when I respond to you.

Rephrasing to simplify my still unanswered question to you:

You wrote, directed at me, "Yeah, you're asking questions, and yeah, they're related to the game, but they don't actually help anyone."

Do you perceive all of my questions to be of the active-lurking sort?

@Kleril:

Quote from: kleril on September 30, 2013, 08:50:38 pm

I screwed up and thought the vote Deathsword had placed was in fact a vote against him

Wow Kleril, voting and/or votecount format confused you too, and you just now see how it works?  I think I had the exact same confusion!  I asked about it here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4637748#msg4637748) and was answered here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4637818#msg4637818).  What did you think when you read the answer?

But if you only now understand how votecount works - but not before today - then every time you saw a votecount before today you read it backwards, right?

Quote from: zombie urist on September 28, 2013, 01:57:56 am

Votecount
Imp - kleril
kleril - Deathsword
Deathsword - Imp

You must have been very disturbed when you saw this one then, the very next votecount to be posted after I had voted Deathsword, he voted you, and you voted me.  If you read the votecount as being reported backwards, that makes it all look really, really wrong!  It looks like you are voting for Deathsword, he is voting for me, and I am voting for you.

Weren't you upset when you believed that the mod just summarily added you to the bandwagon that you had challenged me about joining, and made it look like I wasn't on that bandwagon at all?  Did you feel any guilt or shame or anything that Deathsword's vote against you had somehow turned into your vote against him?  Any anger or confusion that your vote against me had turned into my vote against you?  Why didn't you say anything - everyone's votes must have looked totally messed up to you!  You weren't even surprised that nobody else seemed to notice or care?

Quote from: kleril on September 30, 2013, 08:50:38 pm

I don't believe anyone town will be trying to vote you off from this point forward, and this may be our downfall.

That sounds bad.  Do you really think that in the future only Scum will vote for me?  Should we use that as a way to find them?  Do you mean that you think the person still voting for me is Scum?  I feel like you're protecting me as best you can.  Why do you think I should be protected - and who do you think your words are protecting me from?

@Superblackcat:

Quote from: Superblackcat on October 01, 2013, 02:02:54 am

Imp this one:

Quote

So, please answer the question, What do you think we should do today?

Gotcha!  Talk to each other, especially the people who have not been as active in the thread.  Griffinpup's replacement, if we get one, gotta check him or her out and see what he or she thinks about all this stuff.  Attempt to scum hunt.  When challenged about something, share our thinking so if we are not Scummy, the others who are concerned have a chance to better determine if what bothered them was Scummy or not.  Before the end of day, I still believe we should be trying to lynch the Scum, if we can as most of a group agree on anyone to lynch that is.  But I am still open to changing my mind, if you or anyone can convince me what productive thing to DO while not lynching that's going to lead to a Town win.

What I think you in particular should do for the rest of the day is make it really clear how your method of scum hunting is done.  You gave us a very clear partial plan - vote no lynch today and tomorrow.  But that doesn't feel at all like a complete plan to me, at least not one that leads to a Town victory.  What are the missing pieces?  Or are you already showing us?  So far what I understand from what you show, you first defended yourself, then started asking everyone else who they thought were Scum and Town and asking what others thought should be done.  I still don't hear 'plan for Town win' when I read your words.  But surely you have one - you wouldn't advise sitting there like dumb ducks for two game days as a Town win method, would you?  Really?

By the way... I'll point out too that saying things like

Quote from: Superblackcat on October 01, 2013, 02:05:13 am

I was not able to read through most of the posts.

may not exactly support your Towniness either.  I tentatively believe that Scum have little need to really Scumhunt (except to better appear to be Town) and that they are less motivated, not only to hunt themselves, but to really work very hard to follow others' attempts to Scumhunt - especially if those attempts are not directed towards themselves.  Would you agree?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day
Post by: Imp on October 01, 2013, 04:16:30 am

Quote from: zombie urist on September 30, 2013, 10:07:58 pm

Quote from: Imp on September 30, 2013, 07:01:46 pm

@zombie_urist:
About that Griffinpup - we've had to do without that player, be he Town or Scum, for almost a full week of discussion now.  I don't know what 'soon' means, but his continued absence is making my strategies and plans feel all weird.  Is there any chance you might consider a modkill, considering the sheer length of time his spot has been utterly silent?  This game really feels to me now like there's only 8 players, not 9.

Yeah he's now up for replace.

But zombie.... it's been a full real life week now.  No Griffinpup, no Griffinpup's replacement.  We can't talk to that role.  We can't hear anything from that role.  Do you believe we're going to get a replacement?  How long will you continue to wait for one?

Are we... actually.... maybe.... going to have to... go to Night One... without a participating 9th player?

Could we actually end up... having to decide at some point.... if the reason why maybe we can't find the second scum is because the second scum is completely inactive and has been from start of play?

Even if we get a replacement - even if we get a replacement right now - That player hasn't been here.  All the things that should have happened, didn't.

Is there any chance you'll consider a modkill of that absent spot?  After all this time, for me at least, it feels like there never was a 9th player in this game.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia-Cargo Bay,First Day - IC Replacement needed!
Post by: Persus13 on October 01, 2013, 06:54:46 am

(Just like to remind everyone [especially Urist] that I'm on the replacement list if you're willing to replace griffinpup with a newb. And I have been following along with this.)

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia-Cargo Bay,First Day - IC Replacement needed!
Post by: Mr.Zero on October 01, 2013, 08:25:46 am

@Lukeinator & Superblackcat

Why didn't you both vote yet?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia-Cargo Bay,First Day - IC Replacement needed!
Post by: Lukeinator on October 01, 2013, 01:07:48 pm

Quote from: Mr.Zero on October 01, 2013, 08:25:46 am

@Lukeinator & Superblackcat

Why didn't you both vote yet?

Haven't gotten to it yet.

Squill
i am mainly going you because no one else has voted for you.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day
Post by: Squill on October 01, 2013, 03:24:28 pm

Quote from: Squill on September 30, 2013, 07:22:25 pm

Quote from: Lukeinator on September 30, 2013, 05:41:21 pm

Quote from: Superblackcat on September 29, 2013, 10:41:21 pm

@Luke, What do you think should be done today, What should we be doing, Who do you think is Scum?

To be honest, I think what should be done is to not lynch anybody, and see who survives the night, but I don't think I will. As for Scum Imp seems pretty suspicious, lynching people for not having a lot of time on one night.

@Lukeinator: Where's your actual evidence? He has no way to know your schedule, and even on other nights you have been fairly inactive, even more so than me. To me, that really doesn't make Imp see suspicious, but right now it looks like the only reason you think he is suspicious because he's pressuring you.

Quote from: Lukeinator on October 01, 2013, 01:07:48 pm

Quote from: Mr.Zero on October 01, 2013, 08:25:46 am

@Lukeinator & Superblackcat

Why didn't you both vote yet?

Haven't gotten to it yet.

Squill
i am mainly going you because no one else has voted for you.

It really doesn't help your case that you just did what I called you out for.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia-Cargo Bay,First Day - IC Replacement needed!
Post by: Mr.Zero on October 01, 2013, 04:15:25 pm

Quote from: Lukeinator on October 01, 2013, 01:07:48 pm

Quote from: Mr.Zero on October 01, 2013, 08:25:46 am

@Lukeinator & Superblackcat

Why didn't you both vote yet?

Haven't gotten to it yet.

Squill
i am mainly going you because no one else has voted for you.

Look at the size of that OMGUS, like holy shit. You know i might vote you for that, cause a townie can't be that stupid.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day
Post by: zombie urist on October 01, 2013, 04:56:29 pm

Darvi has replaced griffinpup.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day
Post by: Imp on October 01, 2013, 05:19:34 pm

Hi Darvi!

Welcome in!  Glad you joined us no later than you did.

I don't have any specific questions for you yet, but you are going to start talking to us, right?  I want to hear so very much whatever you have to say - I'm all ears!

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day
Post by: Darvi on October 01, 2013, 06:08:07 pm

Dammit ZU you were offline when I sent that PM. I wanted to get some sleep first! Dammit.

Anyways. I've only read the last page so far, and skimmed everything before that. I'm gonna catch up with that tomorrow/later today, but for now this is plenty enough. I'm gonna put my IC rants in between brackets with invisible text so it doesn't detract from my actual playing. You can read it by highlighting it.


Lukey, when you vote somebody, you usually either give a good reason for voting, or attach a question to that vote. That shows that you mean business. Voting somebody because they have no previous votes is fine, but that is hardly an argument by itself and a sign of laziness. [If somebody has no votes, that might be because nobody has taken any time to probe their behaviour yet. That is a good moment to Get said person engaged in the discussion and get them out of their comfort zone. Conversely, voting for somebody who already has a vote or two is also completely acceptable in a game with no hammers, especially early on when you have nothing to go on anyway. You will most likely face accusations of bandwagoning, but unless you get defensive they mean nothing. In fact, your votee may get nervous too, and immediately attempt to shake off any suspicion from themselves. That is a good opportunity to read them, provided that you actually pressure them with solid interrogations. Just remember that there's also other people to look at. Just remember. Put the other person under pressure to see how they react, because the others are going to do the same to you.]
Currently, you're only giving off a signal that you're either only trying to look active, without actually contributing anything of value, or you're just voting so you can see somebody, who's not you, hang. Both of which are scumtells, as the mafia doesn't want to actually scumhunt, but has to for their own survival.
TL;DR you're barely activelurking scum who should hang unless you can convince me that you're not.

Also, Zero, while that may or may not be an OMGUS, that's less telling than his non-comittal attitude and non-chalant vote. How a player behaves and acts is just as important, if not more, than what they're actually doing. [Related: Voting somebody who has their vote on you is not inherently scummy. Do not be afraid to vote somebody just because you fear the accusation of OMGUSing. Just make sure that you have an actual reason for your vote. The same goes for retracting your vote fromt said person. When people start saying that you're scared of OMGUS claims, despite you having given a perfectly fine reason, they might just be hunting for easy targets. That being said, it's not always the case, and they might just want to test the authenticity of your behaviour.]
Note how he hasn't done much of note in the entire game, whereas almost everybody else has at least a decent amount of posts of varying quality going for them. (SBC and Imp might be overdoing it with their post sizes, though, imo. I've personally never been one for dedication, but then again, I'm the scum of the Earth.)

kleril, what did you do to get removed from the votecount and why aren't you, you know, not on the part of the votecount that isn't saying "not voting"? When you unvote somebody, it means that you have lost at least enough suspicion against them to not warrant a vote. It does not mean that you have no suspicions at all. If you do, it's your job to change that by, you know, scumhunting. Your vote is your most powerful tool in doing so and you should use it liberally.

SBC, ditto. You actually listed a bunch of people whom you claim suspicions against. Why are you not voting for them?

Imp, are you scared of my biting snarkasm or do you just think you're no match for my wit and charm?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day
Post by: Superblackcat on October 01, 2013, 06:24:43 pm

@ Imp, I said that because It means that I skipped over most of the questions asked.

And sorry, I will have to skip over them again, I have a lesson in 10 minutes.

@Darvi, Because I'm trying to put pressure on them, and I don't think any of them warrants a vote yet, however, I think we should keep an eye on them.

I'm pretty sure half the people in the game fell out in activity...


@Mods, can we get a post count and last post for everyone in the game? Thanks.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day
Post by: Imp on October 01, 2013, 06:31:48 pm

@ Darvi:

Quote from: Darvi on October 01, 2013, 06:08:07 pm

Imp, are you scared of my biting snarkasm or do you just think you're no match for my wit and charm?

Haven't decided yet.  Are those your only scary/overwhelming traits?

Whether you be scum or town, thank the gods and the mods that you be active and might stay so.

Get some sleep then, you've done your first post duty by us.  No promise I won't call you on lurking or anything else at some point, but you've got a good 20 hours before I'll start thinking my hopes in your activity are misplaced.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day
Post by: zombie urist on October 01, 2013, 07:10:12 pm

Quote from: Superblackcat on October 01, 2013, 06:24:43 pm

@Mods, can we get a post count and last post for everyone in the game? Thanks.

The automated tool that does this is broken and I don't have time to fix it. However, everyone has posted at least once in the past 24 hours except Deathsword, who has been prodded.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day
Post by: Darvi on October 01, 2013, 07:20:28 pm

Quote from: zombie urist on October 01, 2013, 07:10:12 pm

Quote from: Superblackcat on October 01, 2013, 06:24:43 pm

@Mods, can we get a post count and last post for everyone in the game? Thanks.

The automated tool that does this is broken and I don't have time to fix it.

I knew it!

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day
Post by: Teneb on October 01, 2013, 08:03:24 pm

{I apologize for my absence, I got a research job at the university where I study. Still, not an excuse not to post. I'll re-read today and tomorrow morning (which means from 12 to 14 hours from this post) as it is fairly late now. I guess I should note, if someone else hasn't already, that weekends do not count in regards to game-time.}

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day
Post by: Imp on October 01, 2013, 08:32:57 pm

Quote from: Deathsword on October 01, 2013, 08:03:24 pm

{I got a research job at the university where I study.}

(Congratulations!  Such things are near and dear to my heart too.  Give it all the focus it needs, and get back to us when it won't hurt you.  Very glad to hear you're coming back.)

I'm still open to supporting extension requests.  I misdoubt that we as a whole will be done talking/ready to get on with the hanging (if that's what we do... I've got a respectful nod/suspicious stare  to those of us arguing for a no lynch today) in barely more than 2 days time.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day
Post by: Rolepgeek on October 01, 2013, 09:59:33 pm

Quote from: Imp on October 01, 2013, 04:06:07 am

@Rolepgeek:

I had stopped it, as of post #69.  You reopened it with post #102 and included it as one of two reasons why I earned your vote.

When I challenge someone's behavior, I want to see their response.  You say 'stop it' when I respond to you.

Rephrasing to simplify my still unanswered question to you:

You wrote, directed at me, "Yeah, you're asking questions, and yeah, they're related to the game, but they don't actually help anyone."

Do you perceive all of my questions to be of the active-lurking sort?

So I'm gonna answer in a short way first. The answer is no. Not all of them.

The long answer is yes. The overwhelming majority, and almost everything past the first post, is active-lurking. You aren't scum-hunting, you're commenting on other people's behaviour(but mostly their semantics and nuances of speech, etc., rather than actual scummy activity), asking for clarifications occasionally, made fun of Kleril for a bit... really, it's just frustrating, because I can tell you're intelligent. You're just not focusing on the right parts.
And internet will shut off soon, so I need to cut this post short, though there may be a follow up.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day
Post by: Superblackcat on October 01, 2013, 10:19:49 pm

@Luke, Even though this is a conversation, Could you go through Imp's posts and pick out the spots where she(he?) is doing what you say, and Explain why.


I don't think she is, But then again, I received the brunt of her questioning.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day
Post by: Superblackcat on October 01, 2013, 10:20:12 pm

Your*


@Mods, Are we allowed to edit?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day
Post by: zombie urist on October 01, 2013, 10:21:31 pm

NOOOOOOOOOOO!

Never edit your posts.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day
Post by: Tiruin on October 01, 2013, 11:02:58 pm

Quote from: Imp on October 01, 2013, 08:32:57 pm

Quote from: Deathsword on October 01, 2013, 08:03:24 pm

{I got a research job at the university where I study.}

(Congratulations!  Such things are near and dear to my heart too.  Give it all the focus it needs, and get back to us when it won't hurt you.  Very glad to hear you're coming back.)

*sneak sneak*
{When stuff like these happen-mostly along the line of IRL importance to any player, it is always best to Extend the day to allow fair participation of everyone. Because universal law of sportsmanship and all.

Also I'm really happy at the newbies a-erm, right. Don't edit your posts and I'll be heading back to the peanut galley now sorry. :X}

Quote from: Superblackcat on October 01, 2013, 10:20:12 pm

@Mods, Are we allowed to edit?

You are allowed to double post-something where the 'modify' button functions in on other threads. In the Mafia board-you do not edit.

You can only edit by posting again.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day
Post by: Mr.Zero on October 02, 2013, 01:50:24 am

IC's: Isn't an OMGUS the following?

Player X votes player Y with some evidence, player Y votes for Player X with little to no evidence? or...? Cause i'd like to understand it before i go throwing it around again.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day
Post by: Superblackcat on October 02, 2013, 03:10:08 am

Oh My God You suck is basically what you said, Voting someone in retaliation of them voting you.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day
Post by: Mr.Zero on October 02, 2013, 04:07:53 am

I know but i meant the following OMGUS

Squill votes for lukey with decent evidence or atleast something
Lukey votes for Squill with nothing.

Not an Omgus against me, cause there is none... so far... or i've must've missed it.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day
Post by: Teneb on October 02, 2013, 09:57:20 am

Unovte
Extend

I'll be responding or commenting to things as I go through them, even if they may have been adressed. If I miss anything, please point them out to me.

Quote from: Rolepgeek on September 28, 2013, 09:12:30 pm

@Imp - I'm not quoting that behemoth. I'm sorry, but I'm not.

{You can trim out the parts you find are not needed for your response, like what I did to your own post. If it still gets too large, you may want to put it in a spoiler.}

Quote from: Squill on September 29, 2013, 01:01:12 pm

@Superblackcat: This is not a game of self preservation. If you lynch a scum, great. If you lynch a townie, who voting for who can give a lot of information.

{This is correct. No-lynching is only truly desirable in a MYLO (myslynch and lose) situation. Lynching someone, even a townie, give information. If it was scum, you can analyze their posts known they were scum. Same thing for town.}

Quote from: kleril on September 30, 2013, 08:50:38 pm

@Deathsword:
What do you think about how this current game is playing out?

I like what has been going on, so far, in terms of discussion. It's often rare to get walls of text in a BM.

Quote from: Lukeinator on October 01, 2013, 01:07:48 pm

Quote from: Mr.Zero on October 01, 2013, 08:25:46 am

@Lukeinator & Superblackcat

Why didn't you both vote yet?

Haven't gotten to it yet.

Squill
i am mainly going you because no one else has voted for you.

Woah. Lukeinator, that is one scum move. Voting someone for a trivial reason as that (because no one voted squill). You should be asking questions, analyzing posts, trying to find scum. Instead you are acting like a (really, really lazy) one. Also OMGUS, but it'd be scum even if it wasn't an OMGUS.

Superblackcat: {There is no better way to pressure than with a vote. If you think they are suspicious you should be voting}.

Imp: What are you suspicions, besides rolepgeek (who, if I got it right, you are voting)?

Kleril and MrZero: Could you give us reads (as in, what do you think of them and their behaviour) on three other players?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day
Post by: kleril on October 02, 2013, 11:17:57 am

Quote from: Imp on October 01, 2013, 04:06:07 am

@Kleril:
What did you think when you read the answer?

But if you only now understand how votecount works - but not before today - then every time you saw a votecount before today you read it backwards, right?

Weren't you upset when you believed that the mod just summarily added you to the bandwagon that you had challenged me about joining, and made it look like I wasn't on that bandwagon at all?  Did you feel any guilt or shame or anything that Deathsword's vote against you had somehow turned into your vote against him?  Any anger or confusion that your vote against me had turned into my vote against you?  Why didn't you say anything - everyone's votes must have looked totally messed up to you!  You weren't even surprised that nobody else seemed to notice or care?

In regards to your post, I just thought you had missed the accusation post, or misunderstood the function of red text.

Every time I passed by one of the mod posts, I would raise an eyebrow, but not much came of it until you all started giving me hell for it. I would look at it, get confused, and then have to look back at older posts, but my brain never made the connection and had it stick.

Quote from: Imp on October 01, 2013, 04:06:07 am

That sounds bad.  Do you really think that in the future only Scum will vote for me?  Should we use that as a way to find them?  Do you mean that you think the person still voting for me is Scum?  I feel like you're protecting me as best you can.  Why do you think I should be protected - and who do you think your words are protecting me from?

I'm taking a heavy gamble with this faith in you. At least for my own purposes it will help me think through the actions and motivations of at least one player. You are my mental anchor at this point, and all my thoughts on who's town and who's scum are built off the foundation that at least one person is town, them being you. I think this may help the rest of the town as well, as your trustworthiness is being backed up by whatever trust I have built up in others' minds. This means that a couple things may happen. You may be even more of a mafia target, considering you are one of the largest town contributors at this point, but on the other hand, your voice never being silenced would raise suspicion. Either way, if you survive, and you are in fact town, your contributions will pull us through this game. If you die, however, your death confirms your town-ness, and brings complete legitimacy to all your concerns. On the flip side of this faith comes the issue of my being wrong: If you are scum, and the rest of the town shares my viewpoint, we're done. Good game, handshakes all around.

Quote from: Darvi on October 01, 2013, 06:08:07 pm

kleril, what did you do to get removed from the votecount and why aren't you, you know, not on the part of the votecount that isn't saying "not voting"? When you unvote somebody, it means that you have lost at least enough suspicion against them to not warrant a vote. It does not mean that you have no suspicions at all. If you do, it's your job to change that by, you know, scumhunting. Your vote is your most powerful tool in doing so and you should use it liberally.

I don't quite feel the same way about placing my votes. Throwing them around too liberally makes them lose their weight and ability to be used as a pressure tool. Others may be able to pressure better using questioning along with their vote, but this is not one of my strengths. I tend to have my reasoning for a vote, while the vote is an end in itself in terms of pressure. Holding someone's survival in the game hostage in exchange for answers is a good strategy, and one that I am yet to learn how to use effectively.

Quote from: Deathsword on October 02, 2013, 09:57:20 am

Kleril and MrZero: Could you give us reads (as in, what do you think of them and their behaviour) on three other players?

Squill - He's my top town. He posts little, but does so frequently, and all of his contributions are valuable. He holds very little self interest, and serves the town well at opportune times.
Rolepgeek - He doesn't play very scummy, but I cannot stand the gut feeling I get from him.
Deathsword - I honestly do not know. He feels somewhat scummy, but I also get a bit of town sense from him. His lack of good content either way makes me wary.

@DeathSword:
Why have you spent so little time on things related to the game? Do you not feel that you need to contribute more to help progress things?

@Lukinator:
Do you have any valid justification for how you've been playing? Right now it seems like you're either an idiot who's trying very hard not to admit that you don't know what you're doing, or you're just a stumbling scum. I want to hear your reasoning. I really do, but until that happens I want your neck in a noose.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day
Post by: Imp on October 02, 2013, 12:25:15 pm

PFP, or at least under vast time pressure.  Expect me to be mostly silent, though not absent, until Thursday evening.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day
Post by: Darvi on October 02, 2013, 06:59:18 pm

Quote from: Superblackcat on October 01, 2013, 06:24:43 pm

@Darvi, Because I'm trying to put pressure on them, and I don't think any of them warrants a vote yet, however, I think we should keep an eye on them.

I'm pretty sure half the people in the game fell out in activity...

Something always warrants a vote. Even if that something is only you asking questions, because if you don't like their answer, you can just keep the vote on them.

Quote from: Imp on October 01, 2013, 06:31:48 pm

@ Darvi:


Haven't decided yet.  Are those your only scary/overwhelming traits?

Maybe.

Quote from: Mr.Zero on October 02, 2013, 01:50:24 am

IC's: Isn't an OMGUS the following?

Player X votes player Y with some evidence, player Y votes for Player X with little to no evidence? or...? Cause i'd like to understand it before i go throwing it around again.

It's more like, player X voites player Y. Y votes X in retaliation. That last bit is what's important. If you can tell that the motivation behind the second vote is the first vote (usually you'll have to look behind whatever excuses they give), it's an OMGUS. In this case, it's possible that Luke really only voted whomever, but that doesn't matter since it's scummy it its own way. It's actually hard to tell with how little he actually contributes.

kleril: It doesn't matter if you change votes often. If you only vote when you're certain who you're gonna vote at day's end, that makes you predictable. The mafia can rely on you not changing your vote to them, for instance. Additionally, if you change your vote occasionally, but make a point of not changing it at a certain moment, you can tell your target it's serious. The other votes? Just for pressure. This one? Now you're serious and the other guy should better work on changing that.

Also, you said that squill is your top town read, yet you emphasized your trust in Imp. What reason do you have for this trust? Shilling our scumbuddy?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day
Post by: Imp on October 02, 2013, 07:56:34 pm

@All
I have no time!  But my mind spins with drive to stay involved anyway.  Hopefully posting this will help me dampen my desire to post even more until after my test tomorrow, when I can can appropriately focus here again.  Sure hope everyone else is weekday-level active and I get more stuff to read and think about.

@Superblackcat

Quote from: Superblackcat on October 01, 2013, 10:19:49 pm

@Luke, Even though this is a conversation, Could you go through Imp's posts and pick out the spots where she(he?) is doing what you say, and Explain why.


I don't think she is, But then again, I received the brunt of her questioning.

Where'd your opinion of my gender come from?  I don't mind or anything, just curious.

@kleril

Quote from: kleril on October 02, 2013, 11:17:57 am

You are my mental anchor at this point, and all my thoughts on who's town and who's scum are built off the foundation that at least one person is town, them being you.

That's another similarity we seem to have - part of my thinking's based off of the foundation that I do know without any chance of doubt that one person is Town, because I know what my rolePM said.

If you're Town, you should feel the same - about you.  How can you possibly say that you are sure at least one person is Town - and that one certain person isn't yourself?

I've also challenged you a good bit.  If you are Town then my judgment's off to think you're worth that much attention.  If you are Town, that should color your opinion of my opinions, as you know that you are Town, so my good judgment isn't so good when I look at you and get suspicious - course, only you (and any Scum) can know this, everyone else has to just decide for themself.

Course, if instead you do know who is and isn't Town, then maybe when you see how I talk to each player in this game and know that I'm not working with foreknowledge, maybe that does look pretty neat or accurate or otherwise worth your praise.  Your mental anchor, hrm?  Thanks!

@All
Curses, I am out of time.  Thursday night I'll be answering the questions I've not touched yet, asking a few more, and adding all the other comments I don't have time to put together and write down.  But I cannot WAIT to read what everyone else posts in the interim.  If I can get in another short post or two before then I'll try.  Toodles!

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day
Post by: Rolepgeek on October 02, 2013, 09:54:22 pm

Alright. I dislike having to do this again, but I can't do anything today, really, because I've been dealing with a lot of drama. Tomorrow I hope to be able to do a nice large post with the various things I want to say on it.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day
Post by: zombie urist on October 03, 2013, 02:46:23 pm

Day has been extended to Monday, October 7th at 9 PM.

Votecount
Imp - Rolepgeek
Squill - Lukeinator
lukeinator - Imp, Squill, Darvi, Deathsword, Kleril
Rolepgeek -
kleril -
superblackcat - Mr.Zero
Mr.Zero -
Deathsword -
griffinpup -

No lynch -
Not voting - superblackcat

0 votes to extend. 4 needed to extend
0 votes to shorten 5 needed to shorten

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day
Post by: Darvi on October 03, 2013, 05:30:42 pm

Well those have been very disappointing 23 hours.

Sword: who else are your suspicions and why?
RPG: Why are you not voting me, being the massive scumbag that I am?
Zero: What makes you think SBC is more suspicious than Luke?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day
Post by: Squill on October 03, 2013, 05:44:26 pm

Sorry for inactivity, been a bit busy

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day
Post by: Rolepgeek on October 03, 2013, 09:59:45 pm

Quote from: Darvi on October 03, 2013, 05:30:42 pm

RPG: Why are you not voting me, being the massive scumbag that I am?

This makes no sense. Clarify, please. Are you admitting to being scum?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day
Post by: Imp on October 04, 2013, 12:51:52 am

For anyone wondering where my post is, I'm still typing it.  I'll be posting it when done.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day
Post by: kleril on October 04, 2013, 01:40:28 am

This has been a quiet few days, to say the least. Respond more, guys! Lurking isn't helping anyone!
PFP, so quoting is a horrible mess that I don't have the ability to touch.

@Imp: Smartass. If it were a scummy move to treat your being town as gained knowledge rather than my original role PM, the alternative is much more iffy. My being town is implied knowledge, on my part. If I were to flap my arms about and make a big deal about basing my decisions on the fact that I in particular am town, that screams 'scum' all the louder. I know I'm town. This is the first thing I knew about anyone was which team I was on. Making a big, obnoxious deal about it makes it sound as if you are scum covering up that fact. Imagine how either of our posts would sound if we concluded every sentence with I ASSERT THIS BECAUSE I AM TOWN.

@People who are not imp: Post moar. Contribute.
Seeing as Lukinator is on the receiving end of most votes, what's our next collective step? Or should we discuss this after mafia get in their NK?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day
Post by: kleril on October 04, 2013, 01:54:39 am

Whoops, missed Darvi there.

Good to know about how to use votes more effectively. Care to expand upon that last point you made there? Wasn't quite clear about how maintaining votes should be used.

I'm not sure which trust you want me to justify here.
I trust Squill because they've said the perfect things at the perfect times, and are swinging this game in favour of the town. All posts make it clear where their loyalties lie.

Imp I trust because they're acting how I'd expect them to act in regards to level of trust. On top of that, Imp is the only one who is making as large an effort to scumhunt and drive the game forward.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day
Post by: Imp on October 04, 2013, 03:45:33 am

@All:

K, back. 

---

tldr:  This post's for all because in this I highlight the evidence I have seen that Kleril and Superblackcat are both Scum, considered singly and together.  I am extremely convinced of this assessment.  I am even more certain of Kleril than of Superblackcat, but I am extremely sure of both.  My vote has been changed to Kleril.  I ask the rest of us, whom I now feel are all Town, for consideration of this evidence and urge more active behavior... ESPECIALLY if you don't agree.  I'd rather not stay wrong if I am wrong.

So ends tldr, return to your lurking if you must, post proper follows.

---

I know why I was mostly absent for the last couple of days – what’s up with us as a group, and in most of our cases for more than two days?

I’m going to assume that our new joiner and everyone who was behind the times as of Monday has had a chance to read and catch up.  Why almost no one is posting is beyond me – sure I understand that busy happens.  But for sooooooo long?  Come on, guys.  Actively play most of the days, or actively seek replacement, yeah.  Something like that.

Anyhoo, maybe the reason why we’re all so quiet is that the majority of us who do care and are actively involved are ready to move past Day 1!  I’m going to proceed with that assumption – though I still, for now, remain willing to support further extensions…. But if this is going to be the level of activity I see overall when we extend next that might be the last one I agree with.

So:  Down to business.

---

Quote from: Deathsword on October 02, 2013, 09:57:20 am

Imp: What are you suspicions, besides rolepgeek (who, if I got it right, you are voting)?

Hehehehe Deathsword, thanks for the giggle!  This is only kinda answer to Deathsword – I’d be writing this tonight even without this question, because it seems time for it now.  But it does answer it.

---

First, I want to talk about Lukeinator.

Luke, if you happen to be a young kid, you’re playing fine.  You may not be ready for another game of Mafia for a bit, and you really were not ready for this one.  This game really requires more than you seem able to give it yet.  That’s fine – nothing wrong with you or Mafia, it’s just not time yet.  If you happen to not be a kid, Luke, well done.  A teenager or adult playing like you?  Total waste of space in the game, Town or Scum; but you’ve got me convinced that you’re probably a kid.  I tried to encourage activity, I tried to interact to trigger activity (as have others), and I tried to pressure you into activity.  All attempts have failed, and I’m done with you, for now.

You would be my top and first Scum pick in most games I can imagine.  The way you play is a shield and any Scum trying to lie low can stand tall and still be fully hidden by your giant shadow of young-child-like inactivity.  I meant it, when I said that I’d be glad to see you dead, even if you are Town, because of how you are playing.  Others have agreed.

And if I had no-, little-, or weak-sense of who the Scum were, you’d have to die, and first.  As is, your play still deserves to be lynched.  (That’s why, if you are a kid, you shouldn’t play again for a bit, until you’re ready to play differently.  Again, it’s not you, it’s just this is like Calculus or something; people who aren’t ready shouldn’t join the class, and if they do, they have to fail, so you don’t join until you’re ready).

But in this specific game I actually do feel highly convinced that both Scum have shown themselves.  If that’s true, you’re clean, Luke.  You’re playing terribly badly, but you’re Town playing terribly badly – because there’s only two Scum and if I’m right, you happen not to be one of them.  Now, if I’m wrong about who the Scum are, then you’re VERY very much my next choice.  In fact, you’ve played so very badly that there’s nothing you can possibly do to save yourself – even if you start playing better at some later point in this game, why that’s just going to make you look Scummier because it shows you played badly to begin with on purpose.

Team, here’s why I prefer us not to lynch Lukeinator today:  1)  I think he’s the third Scummiest player in our game, and his tells are only of omission – I believe the other two have both made tells of commission which are far more damning.  We have two better targets I would strongly prefer to see lynched first.  2)  Luke has said so little that I believe lynching him will reveal only his alignment – Great if he’s Scum because it’s great period to lynch Scum, but useless if he’s Town; due to the content of his posts he is the least useful player to get a confirmed result of Town on.  I could be wrong, and I’d like to be corrected if my reasoning is faulty.

But to me he’s just the third scummiest; I think we have two better targets to string up.

---

Superblackcat is my second top Scum pick.  I think there is about an 85% likelihood that he is Scum, and feel about 70% sure I am right in my assessment of him and his play.

Kleril is my top Scum pick.  I think there is about a 96% likelihood that he is Scum, and feel about 90% sure that I am right in my assessment of him and his play.

---

This is my assessment of Kleril, and his links to Superblackcat:
1)   He was the first to speak of something odd about Superblackcat’s unusual first post (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4636720#msg4636720), saying “Interesting choice of pronoun there, bud. There something we should know? (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4637603#msg4637603)”  Kleril never followed up on this – never even answered Mr.Zero’s  (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?action=post;quote=4640177;topic=130600.60;last_msg=4659038) “Even though you asked a little bit more than blackcat, you didn't actively pursue this (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4637603#msg4637603). Why so? Aren't you curious?”

     Note it seems unlikely that he totally missed it – combined with Mr.Zero’s question about his reaction to Cat was also a question about what bandwagon Kleril called me on, and also a question about why Kleril hadn’t voted for me on it.  Following post is Deathsword’s vote on Kleril, his {voice} clarifying that what I’d done wasn’t a bandwagon, then speaking again as a player and challenging Kleril’s lack of a vote with his words of suspicion.

     Kleril responds with a vote on me and an affirmation that I came “after Deathsword after a pressure vote. Rule of thumb the person following that is scum (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4641459#msg4641459)” despite what the others have said about what a bandwagon is, but he ignores completely the question about Cat; he never revisits it, even as others continue to talk about suspicion of Cat, talk about that specific post of Cat’s, explore Cat’s claimed philosophy… Kleril has no interest in Cat, despite his original words about Cat having being suspicious.  Even when Kleril claims to be using me as some sort of touchstone (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4655270#msg4655270), Kleril STILL doesn’t have anything to say about Cat, even though he does finally (after again having been challenged about not using his vote (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?action=post;quote=4653377;topic=130600.120;last_msg=4659334)) vote for Luke after Luke has gained four other votes.

2)   Recently, Kleril has this interesting dynamic going with me.  He says weird things about his own thoughts like how “completely convinced (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?action=post;quote=4647868;topic=130600.90;last_msg=4659334)” he is that I am Town; that “all my thoughts on who's town and who's scum are built off the foundation that at least one person is town, them being you. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?action=post;quote=4655270;topic=130600.135;last_msg=4659334)”.  Scum have no doubt about who else is and isn’t Town.  Additionally, a Scum knows he or she is not Town themself.  I believe this cannot be Town reasoning.

3)   Kleril’s eventual explanation about his pursuit of my bandwagoning seems tuned to my statements of my perceptions, and seems to me like an attempt tuned after the fact to allay my suspicions.  On examination it happens to seem highly implausible as truth – unless he had little interest in the votecounts each day, which seems Scummy to me as well.  Everyone should recognize at a glance when they place a vote and the votecount shows it wrong.  Scum have different reasons to check the votecount than Town, and might not even bother to truly look at it until they think it’s going to show something interesting to them.

---

I’ve already made a case against Superblackcat.  Two and a quarter cases, actually, the first one (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4642894#msg4642894) where I discuss his original scummy play based on everything I’d seen up to that point; the ‘quarter case (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4647305#msg4647305)’ where I try to reduce the pressure upon Superblackcat – not because I am a Scum-loving weakling, before anyone wonders – but because I would prefer to catch actual current-role Scum, not weak players who make one or many mistakes and have no real idea how to defend themselves, and have happened to have been given a Town role – and believing I have recognized him (or her) as a player unable to defend himself well I wished to invite him to play with less stress, showing though either words (the poorer choice) or though genuine and comprehensible Town play (the much more convincing method) that he was innocent.  After all, having –identified a Scum-, if I had at that point, he’s already a belled Superblackcat.  If I’m wrong about him, I want him showing it so I can decide if he’s actually Scum or not.  If I’m right about it – well, given the mistakes he already made, there would probably be quite a few more, and more clear, tells.

And there have been – thus my second full case (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4648338#msg4648338) about Superblackcat, made –despite- my desire to lower the pressure upon him (her?) because what my second full case is based on (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4648150#msg4648150) I see Superblackcat make a really clear error.  Despite the distance between Superblackcat and everyone up to this point, as of his ‘summing it up’ post that I base my second case on, he shows his connection to Kleril.  For one, he agrees with what Kleril says about me – though it’s not clear if he’s agreeing with Kleril’s most recent post (Imp is certainly Town (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?action=post;quote=4647868;topic=130600.90;last_msg=4659419)) or his second most recent post (Imp is rule of thumb Scum (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4641459#msg4641459)).  Either way, despite this agreement I somehow don’t make his list of top Town or top Scum

Who does make his three lists is interesting.  Top Town is Squill, because “I like his reasoning thus far, and the way he responded to me does not sound like mafia. Mafia wouldn't care if I was self preserving”
Interestingly, this is almost identical to Kleril’s “Squill - He's my top town (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4655270#msg4655270). He posts little, but does so frequently, and all of his contributions are valuable. He holds very little self interest, and serves the town well at opportune times.” and “I trust Squill because they've said the perfect things at the perfect times, and are swinging this game in favour of the town. All posts make it clear where their loyalties lie (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4659419#msg4659419).”

But as of the point both these players start to make this assertion, Squill’s only made 9 posts.  This spoiler sums up these 9 posts that Superblackcat and Kleril really like the reasoning of:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

1st answering questions, promising to ask some at 'some point' (which has still not come!  I cry lies!  But Superblackcat and Kleril cry top Town)

2nd answering questions, reacting to a Vote, promising to stick the game out, and responding to a challenge of lurking

3rd correcting an error in the 2nd post

4th (after a motivational speech) answering a question, asking that questioner 1 question back.  (sure it was a great question, a question I found personally useful because of how it was answered - but still.... one question only... one person only)

5th Asking a question to clarify a question asked

6th Answering half of a question, stating more time needed to answer other half.

7th Chiding Superblackcat for self preservation

8th A somewhat jocular and two line analysis of a portion of game play not directly involving Squill himself (didn't involve Superblackcat or Kleril either).

9th Answering the other half of the question.

Superblackcat's top Scum is Mr.Zero, for weird original RVS questions (He complained about –everyone’s- questions initially, not singling out Mr.Zero’s (though Kleril did); he’s asked “@Deathsword, enlighten me. What is the point of asking questions such as: What is your first mafia game? or things along the lines.” And answered “@Rolepeek No, but I think the questions should be relevant to the game, instead of random questions like you guys are asking, and the massive amounts of questions.” – in general, he doesn’t like anyone’s questions.

But his other reason given for voting Mr.Zero was “then blew this [list your top town and FOS] question off, while showing that he saw it, seems like He is trying to hide who he wants dead.”  If Superblackcat believes Scum try to hide who they want dead, AND if he agrees with Kleril about me, then my name should be in Town or in Scum, depending on which opinion of Kleril’s he is agreeing with.  Makes me feel ‘hidden from the list’, but Town don’t have much reason for this.

Otherwise, his SECOND top scum pick is our now gone Griffinpup, absent all game (that means shame on Griff, but how can that make him seem the second most likely Scum?  Unless you have a solid sense of all the other 7 players and deeply believe all of them but one to be Scum (or know all 7 of them are Town, because you are Scum)… but if Superblackcat believes this, then he should have made that belief very clear in this post – he doesn’t say it at all.

And his THIRD scum pick has a reason, “No activity after being voted... Seems kinda like lurk...” which he changes after posting to “My bad, Deathsword became inactive 2days and 8 hours ago [including weekend time], However, not directly after vote. He became inactive after me and Imp had large walls of text.”  Superblackcat’s sole reason given for thinking Deathsword Scum changed.  But if this reason changed, Superblackcat expresses no awareness of his suspicion changing.

And then he has an ‘Others’ category.  Having talked about 4 players as Town/Scum, he speaks only about one as being an ‘others’:  Kleril.  Superblackcat says “kleril doesn't seem scum, but He hasn't had enough activity of the late for me to tell...”  (At this point, Kleril has made 6 posts)  Doesn’t bother to put anyone else in the Others category; follows this statement about Kleril with “I agree with what kleril said”.

Note the sudden focus on Kleril.  The claim he doesn’t think Kleril’s Scum, but apparently not sure enough to say Town, he doesn’t give me any impression he’s been closely following anyone prior to this in the game, but now he agrees with Kleril, without any specifics given.

As of his ‘self defense’ post, he may have started paying close attention to Mr.Zero and myself(“two most active people in this game is after me”); for sure by his ‘top picks’ post he is, especially to me, and also suddenly to Kleril; But where’d this close attention to Kleril come from?  Why this sudden shift in tone, attitude, focus, and styles of posting, which occurred for both Kleril and Superblackcat on the same day, in posts placed two hours apart from each others?

---

I am convinced these changes came from Scum chat.  I am convinced Kleril and Superblackcat are our Scum.

Unvote

What I am not convinced of, is which one to hang first?

Ropes have two ends.  Course, it’s totally unfair to hang both at once.  But ropes –do- have two ends.

---

I am more certain of Kleril  than Superblackcat, though I am certain of both.  And I am even more certain of both of them as a connected pair, because I think that the odds of there being multiple hints of interconnection between two scummy players which I cannot find grounds for in the posts I can see more than suggests that there are posts I cannot see.

---

Sadly, that makes me view the rest of you as essentially confirmed Town.  Even the worst of you, I really think you’re Town worst.  I can go through the motions, and I’m interested still and all – but until I see that I’m wrong about one or both of these being Scum… I’m so convinced that I don’t have much drive to hunt y’all anymore.

I’m so convinced I don’t even really feel driven to question –them- anymore.  I tried to get them to prove their innocence, but they just keep looking Scummier.

However, wow Town.  Where’s your spirits?  Where’s your drives?  Where’s your activity?  I could be wrong.  Worse, I could be Scum.  I know, the Scum know, but do –you- really know?  Really?  Cause you’re acting kinda like it, some of you.  Or like you just don’t care.

If I’m right, and we basically stop hunting now – I will leave this game with a very strong feel of three players.  A weak but acceptable to me (for day 1 at least) feel of three others, and no real sense of 2 of you.

If I’m wrong… there’s still one or two Scum left to find.  Come ON guys.  Especially if you think there’s any chance I could be wrong, WORK to finish this puzzle.  If I’m wrong – we CANNOT afford to wait.

Remember this is a learning game.  Come on guys, get up and take some action (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pJs2et_RPN4)!  You’ll learn more, even if it isn’t totally needed.[/list]

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day
Post by: Mr.Zero on October 04, 2013, 07:08:51 am

Pardon me, a busy few days. Did read new posts, but couldn't really post anything. Anyhow il get on it now.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day
Post by: Mr.Zero on October 04, 2013, 07:24:56 am

Quote from: Darvi on October 03, 2013, 05:30:42 pm

Zero: What makes you think SBC is more suspicious than Luke?

Well Luke is playing stupid, while SBC is acting scummy. I can actually see Luke in me, at least my first mafia game waaay back. I see no reason to vote for stupidity over scumminess, also so far SBC hasn't even tried to show that he is town trying to help town.

Quote from: Deathsword on October 02, 2013, 09:57:20 am

Kleril and MrZero: Could you give us reads (as in, what do you think of them and their behaviour) on three other players?

Imp: In my view looks like a townie, the activity he's showing and the length of posts highly suggest that he is scum hunting. Though i did consider his starting crusade against deathsword for not using quotes awkward, but justifiable.

Rolepgeek: Looks like town to me. He acts a bit passively but it doesn't match the shit SBC,Luke and Kleril's (Because of the points Imp has shown) have pulled off.

Luke: Recent acts show that he is more town than scum, though his actions can aid the scum.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day
Post by: Mr.Zero on October 04, 2013, 07:25:19 am

Woops accidently posted, more to come.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day
Post by: kleril on October 04, 2013, 11:17:11 am

Whelp, my timing sucks.

Quote from: kleril on October 04, 2013, 01:40:28 am

...what's our next collective step? Or should we discuss this after mafia get in their NK?

Seeing as how everyone's kept their second top FOS played close to their chests, I thought it'd be a smart play to follow suit. Had things played out differently, I would have come out here and said that SBC was who we all should be voting next round. Way to go, Imp. You dragged it out of me. It didn't need to happen, and now the scum's play is going to change accordingly, now that it's in writing.

@Imp's behemoth attacking me (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4659525#msg4659525):
Re: 1) Nothing I would have said about cat hadn't already been brought up by other players. It's not helping town any if my contributions are entirely redundant forms of entire redundancy.

2) This is faith I have placed in you, based on how you've been playing. I have no fact to back it up, but this is what I believe. If I had facts (i.e. if I was scum), things would be different, and this convincing would have been from post one, and not 5 or so pages in. Use your head.

3) It's day one, and where votes have been placed has been established as more of a scumhunting tool than anything. Using the votecount alone, and not the posts to justify them, is useless.

Also what in the hell is scum chat?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day
Post by: Imp on October 04, 2013, 01:42:01 pm

Quote from: kleril on October 04, 2013, 11:17:11 am

faith

Kleril, I really want to vote correctly.

If you are Town, simply act it....  I.E. -> DO YOUR JOB.

That way you help ensure the win for your team, no matter when or how you die.

At this point I don't care if we lynch you or Superblackcat first.  I'm not playing close to the chest.  The same four players I was most suspicious of in my original answer to top Town/top FOS are actually still the four I most suspect now - that could have changed, but based on behavior and posting since then, it hasn't.

The order's changed, and that's largely because of subsequent behavior.  How certain I am of each has changed, and that is entirely because of subsequent behavior.

Ehh, none of that matters.  You and the Scum are the only people playing who know, absolutely know, if you are Town or Scum.  Either way, get Scum hunting.  I wouldn't bother just hunting Cat, to me he's a clear target and I've strongly said so, you've just agreed he's your top FOS, though you said NOTHING about it before, unless we want to count your first and never followed up on comment about how he wrote in his first post.  So find the second Scum.

It's probably really easy to look just at me; I don't expect you to ignore me, but as Town (if you are...) you still have motivation to catch the Scum, right?  There's people in this game who I have a very weak/almost no feel for right now.  I rather believe that's how most of us feel towards at least some of the people not currently in the spotlight.

So, as someone who used to be a manager, let me suggest, since you haven't been 'fired' yet and there's still days left to the end of the current extention (which I am tentatively willing to still support extending further) - Get to work.

I don't want to mislynch.  The same thing that would convince me I'm wrong about Superblackcat would also convince me I'm wrong about you.  Do all you can to find the second Scum (since you say you agree that Cat's likely to be one of them).  Don't waste all your time on Cat (I hear you say that Cat's your top FOS - I won't forget it - but there's already a very strong case against Cat in my eyes [Subtle things about Cat's behavior towards you, the most obvious I already highlit, is also part of why I suspect you so strongly] and we are hunting two Scum.)  Find the second Scum.

If your behavior both makes sense with all you've shown so far and as a whole points to your not being Scum, I will have NO hesitation in explaining what I see.  If the entire team dynamic suggests that you're not one of the Scum and I catch it, I'm also going to point that out.

Now, I might not state these things IMMEDIATELY and DIRECTLY AT FIRST, but I'm well aware that I may not live to D2.  I have NO REASON to hide my observations and suspicions, not even to better trap someone D2+, because I can't count on being around to say anything.  It's today or never to me.  Maybe for you too - Each person's going to vote how they see fit, there's no certainty that you're dying first or at all.

Just cause I'm so sure about what I see, doesn't mean you have to be.  So, you know, Scum hunt.  Cause.... my mind can be changed, and I don't want to be wrong.  Once I realize I'm wrong, I try to fix it so I can be right again - staying wrong doesn't motivate me.  Mislynching anyone doesn't motivate me.  So... get to work maybe?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day
Post by: kleril on October 04, 2013, 02:38:00 pm

@Mr. Zero:

Quote from: Mr.Zero on September 30, 2013, 03:42:19 am

I suppose i could give out my top town which is Rolepgeek.

What's Rolepgeek done to take the spot of top town, for you? He seems to be overly hostile and uncooperative, in my eyes.

@SBC

Quote from: Superblackcat on September 29, 2013, 12:36:55 pm

Personally, because I think the chance of actually killing the mafia is quite small, I would prefer two NL's. However, if there was something drastic happen, in the next several of hours, a RL may be what we need.

While on paper, this seems to be the best approach, the game is meant to be played. Odds are that as town we can play cohesively enough to make a mafia member stumble and say something incriminating. I've played very few games of mafia where scum hasn't been voted off, or at least confirmed in the minds of the group, by the end of day one. It's rare that scum can play well enough during day one to keep on top of everyone setting the stage for the rest of the game.
On top of that, the most powerful use for a lynch is the ability to choose. Everyone's got at least a rough idea of who's suspicious, and eliminating one of them means that the next day becomes easier to choose correctly.
e.g. Losing you or Lukinator during the day is more beneficial than losing, say, Squill during the night, as now we have fewer scummy players to choose between.

So, do you still believe a NL is good for town? Have you ever? Or are you just pushing the idea forward to sway the game in favour of scum?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day
Post by: Squill on October 04, 2013, 03:06:48 pm

Imp, while two of your points against kleril are valid, I feel like the first one is a bit invalid.

Quote

1)   He was the first to speak of something odd about Superblackcat’s unusual first post, saying “Interesting choice of pronoun there, bud. There something we should know?”  Kleril never followed up on this – never even answered Mr.Zero’s “Even though you asked a little bit more than blackcat, you didn't actively pursue this. Why so? Aren't you curious?”

This is quite possibly because kleril was just picking at SBC's grammar, but from then on they never really payed much attention to each other. I know that I haven't really addressed Deathsword much, because he hasn't done a whole lot that struck me as particularly scummy.

Sorry that this post wasn't a bit longer, I was going to do more but it quickly devolved into some WIFOM BS, but I felt obligated to post something.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day
Post by: Imp on October 04, 2013, 03:07:38 pm

Quote from: kleril on October 04, 2013, 11:17:11 am

Also what in the hell is scum chat?

Whups, meant to answer this.

If you've read any other forum BM games, at least to the end, the moderator offers a few links after the game, to some off this forum private posting place.  Scum chat is one of these, there's also a deadchat, and sometimes a spoilspec chat.  These were all open to specific people during play and are more or less heavily used.

Dead chat's where dead people of any role can go to talk, and there's apparently a few other non-player/experienced people with access to there.

Spoilspec's apparently a thread where you can go to see all the info about the game, but separately from the Mafiachat, so you can't see what the mafia discuss or influence them privately there (as the ScumIC can and should).  Some discussion about play may happen there, safe from where it can influence play.  I've only looked at one game's opened spoilspec, personally I didn't find it useful, though I've enjoyed peeking at a couple other game's deadchats and scumchats.

All three of these chats have been mentioned inside this forum game already.  Deadchat only once, here:

Quote from: Tiruin on September 29, 2013, 08:31:13 pm

ZU: Spoilspec please-if only to give access to deadchat, thanks. :P

Spoilspec was mention in that post, and also in the OP:

Quote from: zombie urist on August 30, 2013, 03:13:49 pm

Replacement List:
•This could also be you!
•Persus13

Spoilspec:

And Scumchat was first mentioned in the OP:

Quote from: zombie urist on August 30, 2013, 03:13:49 pm

The mafia know the alignment of everyone on their team and they can discuss the game privately in a special mafia chat.

But it was also mentioned in play once before as well:

Quote from: Deathsword on September 25, 2013, 09:14:14 am

{...there is a Scum IC. The purpose of the Scum IC is to guide and provide advice to scum in the safety of the scumchat...}

Good luck.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day
Post by: Superblackcat on October 04, 2013, 06:50:46 pm

Sorry for my inactivity last two days, I have had enormous amounts of math homework, and just finished my math test.

Anyways, onto the meat.

@Imp, Where did I suddenly focus on kleril? After my talk with you, I kinda disappeared in this game, essentially lurking. This was because I had a math test these days, and spent time until 1am during the day working on that stuff. In the beginning, I was kinda just dropping in and skimming, and then I dropped out completely.

Also, my assessment of your gender comes from your style of writing, (the only thing I know about you).

What is your gender?

For the Behemoth attack... What?... Frankly, I think you will probably just use this post to connect me and kleril again. Even though I don't see how we are connected in the first place.

I understand your first points against kleril, and I think it's a valid point, I was waiting for him to answer me for a while, and when eventually he didn't... I kinda forgot about it.

I don't understand your second post at all, and your links don't work. You are saying he is scum because he gets a towntell on you?


As for me:

For your first part. I believe I said squill because whatever someone said made sense. It coincided with what I remembered, and I mentioned him

Secondly, My opinion of you, is that I do not know if you are scum or town, Right now, because of this post, you seem scum to me. But I feel like that is a biased view, as you just accused me. I said that what you said had a lot of sway in this game. That's the part I agree with, Not anything about you being scum/town. I have not decided, so you were not under anything. I thought long and hard where to put you, and I couldn't decide. You didn't make either list.

"Your words have a lot of sway, and it scares me." (Quoted from kleril)


Frankly, you took that much information from my list, and yet, you guys still believe that there is no point in doing them. Why? The list makes people think hard about everyone inside the game, and other's will be able to look back, and use what people said.

For my scum reasoning. I stated them. Some of the got answered directly afterwards, such as griffinup, and deathsword. The scum on griffin was more of a prod.

kleril is the one other person I remember, because he addressed me directly. Afterwards, His activity declined.



"As of his ‘self defense’ post, he may have started paying close attention to Mr.Zero and myself(“two most active people in this game is after me”); for sure by his ‘top picks’ post he is, especially to me, and also suddenly to Kleril; But where’d this close attention to Kleril come from?  Why this sudden shift in tone, attitude, focus, and styles of posting, which occurred for both Kleril and Superblackcat on the same day, in posts placed two hours apart from each others?"


What in the hell do you mean?



@MrZero: "Rolepgeek: Looks like town to me. He acts a bit passively but it doesn't match the shit SBC,Luke and Kleril's (Because of the points Imp has shown) have pulled off."


HOLY SHIT! That is just scum tell right there.

"SBC,Luke and Kleril's (Because of the points Imp has shown)"

The scum tell in there, actually two, is that first of all. You didn't question ANYTHING, Imp said. Are you telling me that you agree with every single point in that behemoth post? Or did you just skim the "VOTE KLERIL" part, and then decided to include his name?

Also, You proceed to say luke is just dumb? Why the contradiction? Why include Luke's name in the first place?

for this, you deserve a Vote (MrZero)

You seem to understand Imp very well... Might you be getting clarifications, or just frankly status updates with eachother... in a certain thing called Scum chat?

You two seems to be working together. It wasn't very apparent in the previous posts, but because of that post, I've noticed you guys have basically agreed on everything.

Why do you guys even bother to hold things close to the chest, as you guys call it. As you guys can die at any night, Give away any and all information you notice, don't hold your 2nd fos close to the chest. No point in doing so. If you die with important information... Well, We missed it. However, if you die with the information spewing out of your mouth. Guess what, Someone may have killed you for that. Whether for WIFOM purposes, or just because, they want you dead.



@kleril: As of now, I believe we should vote MrZero. However, you forget something very important. Cops, and Roleblockers

Cops get to investigate every night.

Say... We NL tonight, and Squill dies, Cop investigates, say... Me or Luke, They either get a scum or no scum. Guess what? We got the same information, except we get one more night... Hmmm, He investigates, say, Imp or MrZero. WOAH more information. And he doesn't even need to out it. He can soft out it, and we will read back to see what he said. Such as, He could say, yknow, I think Luke seems more like town. And if he does die, we can assume that he investigated Luke. I feel like I just outlined what scum should be looking out for :(.

@Mods, Could you clarify how RoleBlockers work?

Who essentially kills? The Stalker, or the reg mafia? If RBer does Block, reg mafia, will someone still die because the stalker is alive?



@Squill, Do you think Imp is town? What about me? What about MrZero? What about kleril? What about Luke? What about Rolepgeek? First Impressions on Darvi?



Extend so we can finish these lines of thought as Weekends aren't technically mafia days.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day
Post by: kleril on October 04, 2013, 07:47:17 pm

PFP once again, just to address this quickly.

@SBC: "...you forget something very important: cops and role blockers"
I'm REALLY unsure why that was addressed to me. It's true, those roles could contribute greatly, but that's provided we're fortunate enough that they live through the night.

This question I want answered NOW: Why are you asking for clarification on how role blockers work? To me this just screams scum.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day
Post by: Imp on October 04, 2013, 08:48:13 pm

Quote from: Superblackcat on October 04, 2013, 06:50:46 pm

What is your gender?

...your links don't work...

Posting from work, so super brief (for me) and incompletely answering for now - My most likely time to be able to reply properly is Sunday, though if at all possible I'll do so sooner.

I am female.

And I am very glad to be told about those links not working - some work, some don't, and I hadn't realized and am SO GLAD to be told.  Apparently I grabbed some links from the reply window instead of the main thread.

I can open all those links, even the bad ones; but it seems to be trying to post a reply from the past or something, because opening any of them takes me to a reply window quoting the post I intended to link to and tells me (currently)  "Warning - while you were reading 11 new replies have been posted. You may wish to review your post." -replies that don't exist outside of that newly opened replying link.  If my posts bad links are completely broken for you/others, then it's probably also trying to reply from my account or something, ouch.

I will be fixing this on or before Sunday with a new reply with proper links, and I will make sure they all work, instead of just spot checking a handful as I had.  This new post will contain that exact argument, changed only to give fully functional links.  My appologies that I cannot take the time to fix it RIGHT NOW (and I want to).  Anything I wish to add or change about my observations will be discussed separately from that correcting clarification, as will answering questions/concerns/challenges about it.

I support the request for Extension.  Just... those of you who are maybe procrastinating?  Don't take this or any extension as a reason to avoid involvement with the game - if you do, in general Town is going to lose.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day
Post by: Darvi on October 04, 2013, 09:07:26 pm

Sweet mother of everything that's holy. Imp, do something about your posts, nobody reads walls of text. (And if somebody claims otherwise, then let me just emphasise that in the grand scheme of things, they are nobodies. Take that, existentialism!) Conciseness goes a long way to make sure you get listened to. At best, the length of your rants hides your lack of questioning over the last few days.
You've done a bunch of reasoning, nice. But are you certain that's all there is? This is day 1, and nothing is for sure. If you want people to be more active, then do what you preach and do something. Also, you shouldn't judge people by whatever link you see between them. Save that for if one of them flips scum.

Quote from: Rolepgeek on October 03, 2013, 09:59:45 pm

Quote from: Darvi on October 03, 2013, 05:30:42 pm

RPG: Why are you not voting me, being the massive scumbag that I am?

This makes no sense. Clarify, please. Are you admitting to being scum?

No, I want you do give me a reason why you're not voting for me. [I'm also trolling you so I can read your reaction to my question. Expect this to happen in other games.]

Quote from: kleril on October 04, 2013, 01:40:28 am

Seeing as Lukinator is on the receiving end of most votes, what's our next collective step? Or should we discuss this after mafia get in their NK?

Our collective step, as always, is to scumhunt. Simply because Luke is a dead ringer for the D1 lynch doesn't mean we're gonna stop and wait for the next day. So if you're certain he's scum, look for his scumbuddy. If not, then try to convince the group who else should be lynched. Maybe this results in somebody else than Luke being lynched. Which is a good thing, as complacency is one of the reasons town loses.

This goes for everybody, by the way.

Quote from: kleril on October 04, 2013, 01:54:39 am

Whoops, missed Darvi there.

Good to know about how to use votes more effectively. Care to expand upon that last point you made there? Wasn't quite clear about how maintaining votes should be used.

[Basically, when you vote somebody, you want to see how they behave. Scum will panic. Town will also panic, especially in a BM, but less so than scum since their death is less detrimental to their team than if they were on the scumteam. Chances are, when you don't remove your vote off somebody, they will have behaved scummily. Scumilly? Eh.
Several things can then happen. The other player can start actually playing like town. That is a good thing. It means they are scumhunting and stuff, and that leads to town winning. At that point, you can remove your vote, maybe keeping your finger of suspicion on them just as a warning.
If they keep playing scummy, or at least bad enough to convince you they're not worth keeping around, you keep your vote on them unless somebody else is worse. Then, they either flip town (and nothing of value was lost) or they flip mafia, which is great. Of these three resuslts, only the second is sub-optimal, but that can be hardly blamed on you. (Actually, there's also the case where your target chickens out/cannot play/stops being active for some reason. In that case it's best to just hope for a replacement and move on to somebody else. This is the worst case scenario, as is currently with my vote.)]

Quote

I'm not sure which trust you want me to justify here.
I trust Squill because they've said the perfect things at the perfect times, and are swinging this game in favour of the town. All posts make it clear where their loyalties lie.

I'd like to see some examples of those perfect things and why you think they make them look town. [One thing to be concerned about is if people say that they feel somebody else is town, but without giving any reason for it. Often, that is a sign of scum covering for their scumbuddy aka Buddying.
Therefore, regardless of your alignment, you should never do that, since you will look like scum. And unless the other players realise that chainlynches are a bad thing, the buddy will hang too if you're actually scum. Which I guess you should also keep in mind. Sometimes scum will buddy with town just so they will look like town when the other guy flips, or to make town chain-lynch a townie. This, naturally, never works.
Basically, when somebody buddies, the other guy might be worth looking into, but that should be the case anyway, and it's not a reason to get lynch-happy.

It is also important to tell what is buddying and what isn't. Examples of what isn't:
"X has been playing solidly the entire game, has been actively scumhunting, and generally hasn't acted scummy. I'm certain he's town"(Good, solid reason that can be easily verified by just looking at the thread)
"I have a gut feeling Y is town. She hasn't been all that active, but nothing points towards her being scummy"(Bit shaky reason, but it is made clear that the town tell isn't that certain either. Can be made better or worse depending on how much Y has been questioned earlier).
"I just have a feeling that Z is town." (This only works in a game that has more special roles, like cops or masons. Sometimes people want to share their knowledge without giving away their source, but that doesn't actually happen often since at best, it's a null-tell and at worst, looks like buddying. If the person making this claim flips town though, especially with a role that allows them to know the other person's alignment, it's a solid testimony. But until then, it's best to not think too hard about it since it only leads to WIFOM.)]

Quote from: kleril on October 04, 2013, 02:38:00 pm

@Mr. Zero:

Quote from: Mr.Zero on September 30, 2013, 03:42:19 am

I suppose i could give out my top town which is Rolepgeek.

What's Rolepgeek done to take the spot of top town, for you? He seems to be overly hostile and uncooperative, in my eyes.

[Good job! This is exactly what I was talking about. Be wary of vague town claims. Yes, I'm aware that Imp has brought up a similar issue in the post that shall now forever be known as the Behemoth, but like hell I'm gonna dissect that.]

Quote from: Mr.Zero on October 04, 2013, 07:24:56 am

Well Luke is playing stupid, while SBC is acting scummy. I can actually see Luke in me, at least my first mafia game waaay back. I see no reason to vote for stupidity over scumminess, also so far SBC hasn't even tried to show that he is town trying to help town.

[I like this answer. It shows that you are at least trying to differentiate between newbtown and newbscum. Actually managing to do that is difficult though, since bad players aren't good at appearing as town, period. Basically, allow for some leeway, but keep some skepticism to not dismiss every mistake as a newbie thing.] Please explain why you think that makes her scummy and not just a newbie flailing around trying to get a grip? (That sounded meaner than I intended to, but my inability to give a damn prevents me from changing it) Also, you say Luke is playing stupid, yet you implicitly call him scummy right afterwards. Explain this inconsistency. [Giving examples is always good, as is asking them. Even if you have a good idea of how somebody behaves, having somebody else give their opinion is a nice way of confirming your reads or putting them into question. Also, unless you heavily disagree, you shouldn't give your own opinion first. Because, if the reply is similar, how can you tell it hasn't been influenced by what you said earlier?]

Quote from: Mr.Zero on October 04, 2013, 07:24:56 am

Imp: In my view looks like a townie, the activity he's showing and the length of posts highly suggest that he is scum hunting.

"Suggest"? Are they scumhunting or are they not? [Distinguishing scumhunting from hot air is a skill you will need to learn. Important is that the person goes out of their way to get a read from others. Actually interpreting those reads is also a factor, but not as important. Or maybe that's just me, I personally never was good at that.]

Quote from: kleril on October 04, 2013, 11:17:11 am

Also what in the hell is scum chat?

It's a fun, happy place where scum can plan their next steps without the prying eyes of the rest of the players. This one is my personal favourite, for obvious reasons (http://www.quicktopic.com/46/H/Bpjv9UBGdtr).

Quote from: Superblackcat on October 04, 2013, 06:50:46 pm

@MrZero: "Rolepgeek: Looks like town to me. He acts a bit passively but it doesn't match the shit SBC,Luke and Kleril's (Because of the points Imp has shown) have pulled off."


HOLY SHIT! That is just scum tell right there.

This is something where I almost feel obliged to contest. Yes, mentioning kleril is obvious tailgating on Imp's arguments. But for the rest, it almost looks more like somebody getting overwhelming scumvibes fromplain bad playing, and not intentionally malific.

In a different context, that is. Look above for the bit about him mentioning Luke and what I feel is wrong about it. Also, given that RPG's passivity is the only notable thing he mentions, it's very questionable how Mr.Z makes him his top town pick.

Quote from: Superblackcat on October 04, 2013, 06:50:46 pm

@Mods, Could you clarify how RoleBlockers work?

Who essentially kills? The Stalker, or the reg mafia? If RBer does Block, reg mafia, will someone still die because the stalker is alive?

RB's prevent their target from acting that night. If their target has no action, tough luck. It the roleblocker gets blocked, well, no further blocking happens. If two blockers block each other, they will realise after the game that what they have done may have been a colossal waste of time.

Also, one mafioso will do the kill. If they have a different (active) ability, they cannot use it at the same time. So with a setup of Roleblocker+Mafioso, they can block and kill at the same time. If one of them goes down, they can only kill (well, the RB could block, but that's wasteful).

That being said, no-lynching is stupid. It gives the mafia a free kill, no more, no less. If you want to play longer with the same people available, ask for an extend. Any reasons that you could give for no-lynching are hypothetical, situational, and soaked in wine.

Also, etiquette dictates that days off (such as because of tests) should be announced in advance whenever possible so people at least know what's happening.

Quote from: kleril on October 04, 2013, 07:47:17 pm

This question I want answered NOW: Why are you asking for clarification on how role blockers work? To me this just screams scum.

That looks like a leading question to me. Where else would you ask for clarifications?


So I'm going to let Luke off the hook for now. No point in beating a blind camel. I'd like, however, to see his or his replacement's opinion on everything that has happened so far.

Sword I'm still waiting a reply from.

SBC: Does your previous statement about Squill being your top town pick still stand? He doesn't seem all that active or valuable to me. Also I'd like to know if you have any other basis for your FoS other than MrZ. seemingly getting along well with Imp. Because connecting your suspicions to other people is bad practice.

kleril has so far mostly behaving like town, but that doesn't mean much. I don't like their blind faith and would like them to stop it. *apatheismode off*

Imp is getting too comfortable with their picks. That sounds like scum pre-emptively deciding on the lynches because fuck scumhunting, you know you can trust them. Right?

I don't like Mr.Z's inconsistency and vagueness regarding his reads. Got any more reasons for your town read on RPG?

Quote from: Imp on October 04, 2013, 08:48:13 pm

Just... those of you who are maybe procrastinating?  Don't take this or any extension as a reason to avoid involvement with the game - if you do, in general Town is going to lose.

I would have posted already if I hadn't wasted a literal hour on trying to read the Behemoth. :V
Also, if you want people to talk, then it's your job to compel them to do so. If people don't reply to your queries, fine, that means they can't or won't post and you can't do anything about it. Just saying "hey, post" never accomplishes anything, despite how hard people wish it would.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day
Post by: Squill on October 04, 2013, 09:18:06 pm

I'm too worn out right now to properly answer SBC's questions (I'll do so come morning), but I just wanted to suggest that Darvi change the formatting of his text, as it's a bit of a pain to highlight everything.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day
Post by: Tiruin on October 04, 2013, 09:31:48 pm

I love Darvi's way of IC advice :P
If you hadn't noticed yet, just hover your mouse near the bracket, then highlight the whole thing until the next bracket.

Because 'Transparent' text.
This is how it works! -Beeeehhh- :p

Code: [Select]

[color=transparent]I bet you'll highlight the line above this now, huh?[/color]That is IC ADVICE, by the way.

...Also he goes by another name: Wymar//Wymar Sane if you're going to read that scumchat.

It is brilliant and lengthy.

Quote from: Darvi on October 04, 2013, 09:07:26 pm

Sweet mother of everything that's holy. Imp, do something about your posts, nobody reads walls of text. (And if somebody claims otherwise, then let me just emphasise that in the grand scheme of things, they are nobodies. Take that, existentialism!) Conciseness goes a long way to make sure you get listened to. At best, the length of your rants hides your lack of questioning over the last few days.
You've done a bunch of reasoning, nice. But are you certain that's all there is? This is day 1, and nothing is for sure. If you want people to be more active, then do what you preach and do something. Also, you shouldn't judge people by whatever link you see between them. Save that for if one of them flips scum.

I feel hurt because I read walls of text like they're nothing :<

*Tiruin is nobody.

{He's pertaining to those who usually have lesser time on hand and want to get down to gritty details, and/or need a concise summary of details to note.

...I mean gods did I use a ton of WoT's when I first started. Back in BM..Oh about ~BM 28? or so ago.}

Quote

« Last Edit: Today at 09:51:52 pm by Tiruin »

I'm not playing by the way, if any of you have ideas :P

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day
Post by: Superblackcat on October 04, 2013, 09:37:21 pm

I agree with Squill with the hling part, I was really confused why there was massives spaces... until, yknow I started Highlighting.


@Darvi, You would be my current top town tell, because with that one post, it's gone through more than anyone else, except for maybe Imp. And frankly, I like your logic. Of course, I do think that you could be a wolf in sheeps clothing, and looking at that veteraness in those posts, I can see how easily you could probably pretend to be town. And how well you would do it.

Also, my basis for MrZero's FOS came several pages back. I'm not sure I remember exactly why. However, they were calling me out on "Not helping town". I did what I normally do in other games to scum hunt. Ask people to list top FoSes and Town Tells, I then continued to list my own.

Directly afterwards, I got blown off by MrZero. It seems that he doesn't want anyone to know who he suspects, or who he thinks is town. I think the two people he has mentioned is Imp (Town), Me (Scum).

However, after that post, I kinda felt a *ding* in my head, and I felt like pieces fit together. MrZero and Imp have highly different posting styles, and frankly, I would believe, personalities. However, they have managed to support each other on every point either of them have made, and not go against each other at all.

Darvi, I do believe I mentioned his inconsistency.

Right now, I believe that Scum is 2 out of MrZero, Imp, and kleril.

So, that means, I believe all the others are town. Even though Luke's posts are pure retard, I think that it is because he doesn't know how to play, or explain themselves. Mafia would go crazy after being called out like that, and well... He's kind of basically gone inactive. Either he is lurking, which wouldn't be too surprising, or just.. gone. (we probably won't miss you ;P, but if you are still here, please post. At least say hi.)

Squill... Just isn't scummy. I don't think he(she?) is important, but he/she is not scummy.



Could everyone list their genders please, This guessing game is too hard.

As for Deathsword. If he's trying to avoid attention, he's doing a great job. I'm kind of curious as to why He wasn't here, until I posted in regards to him, and suddenly he's here.

DS:Have you been lurking Deathsword? Have you been viewing this thread, and just not posting? If so, why aren't you posting?

ehhh... Rolepgeek... Has flown under my radar the whole time. Therefore, Rolepgeek, would you please list who you think is scummy? (2 min) and who you think is most town like (2 min).

Also, Darvi, do you = Wymar?

(Sorry for wall of text as well)

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day
Post by: Superblackcat on October 04, 2013, 09:38:16 pm

Damn you Tiruin!

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day
Post by: zombie urist on October 05, 2013, 12:04:33 am

Day 1 ends Monday, October 7th at 9 PM.

Votecount
Imp - Rolepgeek, Darvi
Squill - Lukeinator
lukeinator - Squill, Deathsword, Kleril
Rolepgeek -
kleril - Imp
superblackcat - Mr.Zero
Mr.Zero - superblackcat
Deathsword -
Darvi -

No lynch -
Not voting -

2 votes to extend. 4 needed to extend
0 votes to shorten 5 needed to shorten

Quote from: Tiruin on October 04, 2013, 09:31:48 pm

I feel hurt because I read walls of text like they're nothing :<

You write walls of text like they're nothing :I

Lukeinator has been prodded.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day
Post by: Squill on October 05, 2013, 07:12:06 am

Quote

@Squill, Do you think Imp is town? What about me? What about MrZero? What about kleril? What about Luke? What about Rolepgeek? First Impressions on Darvi?

Imp: I'm still undecided. His playstyle could really be either in my view.
SBC: I think that you are up there in terms of scum, although that may be because you just play radically different to me.
MrZero: Probably town in my view. He hasn't been lurking, but he doesn't seem to be trying to avoid notice by putting out sheer volume of text that people want to read.
kleril: I like Imp's reasoning against him, but I'm going to need a bit more to go off of before I'm convinced.
Lukeinator: I don't even really care if he's scum, but he's either a bad scum or a VERY bad town. I'm more worried that if he's town, he's going to inadvertently help scum with OMGUS/bandwagon voting.
Rolepgeek: I'm kinda suspicious, just because he hasn't been posting too much. He hasn't posted anything that set off alarm bells inside my head, but that may be a problem in and of itself.
Darvi: A bit of a wild card. While he seems helpful so far, I keep on reminding myself that he's much more experienced than me

Quote

Squill... Just isn't scummy. I don't think he(she?) is important, but he/she is not scummy.

It's a he.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day
Post by: zombie urist on October 05, 2013, 11:15:05 am

Persus13 has replaced Lukeinator.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day
Post by: Persus13 on October 05, 2013, 11:28:07 am

Unvote Lukinator's OMGUS and Extend (because I don't want to get insta-lynched right after joining a game)

So I've been following this game from the beginning, but not too closely, so at somepoint I'm going to need to reread everything.

Rolepgeek, I haven't heard much from you recently, and I was wondering what your opinion on everything post Behemoth is? Do you agree with Imp's assertion that Kleril and SBC are scum? Why haven't you posted in the last 36 hours even though Darvi's answered your question?

Imp: Now that Kleril seems to be attacking SBC do you think that they're trying to bus SBC or you were just incorrect about the two being scumbuddies?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day
Post by: Teneb on October 05, 2013, 12:48:13 pm

First, a heads-up: I will probably not post tuesdays and thurdays (due to having to spend exactly ten hours on the university, plus the time it takes to get there).

Darvi

Quote from: Darvi on October 03, 2013, 05:30:42 pm

Sword: who else are your suspicions and why?

I'll go on this below in this very post.

Keril

Quote from: kleril on October 04, 2013, 11:17:11 am

@Imp's behemoth attacking me (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4659525#msg4659525):
Re: 1) Nothing I would have said about cat hadn't already been brought up by other players. It's not helping town any if my contributions are entirely redundant forms of entire redundancy.

Yet sometimes it's best to adress things already done so by others, for often people tend to not notice something.

Quote from: kleril on October 04, 2013, 11:17:11 am

2) This is faith I have placed in you, based on how you've been playing. I have no fact to back it up, but this is what I believe. If I had facts (i.e. if I was scum), things would be different, and this convincing would have been from post one, and not 5 or so pages in. Use your head.

Faith doesn't find scum. Questions do. Not questioning someone and then declaring them to be 100% town is wierd. Unless you know what everyone is. Scum do.

{I will repeat myself and say there is no such thing as 100% confirmed role if you are town in a BM. Or as any alignment in setups with third parties.}


SBC: I find your obsession with either no-lynching or random-lynching fascinating. Why do you not want to scumhunt and try to kill one of them on D1? Why would you rather leave it to inaction or chance?

Quote from: Superblackcat on October 04, 2013, 06:50:46 pm

Say... We NL tonight, and Squill dies, Cop investigates, say... Me or Luke, They either get a scum or no scum. Guess what? We got the same information, except we get one more night... Hmmm, He investigates, say, Imp or MrZero. WOAH more information. And he doesn't even need to out it. He can soft out it, and we will read back to see what he said. Such as, He could say, yknow, I think Luke seems more like town. And if he does die, we can assume that he investigated Luke. I feel like I just outlined what scum should be looking out for :(.

@Mods, Could you clarify how RoleBlockers work?

Who essentially kills? The Stalker, or the reg mafia? If RBer does Block, reg mafia, will someone still die because the stalker is alive?

You keep forgetting about scumhunting and finding scum through questioning and post analysis in the first day. Sure, town may be lynched, but then we'll have more information. How? We'll be able to read the lynchee's posts knowing they were town and thus learn more. Or scum may be lynched, which is good. And we can read the lynched scum's posts knowing they were scum and watch how they interacted with others. No lynching removes that possibility. Night is not the only thing in mafia.

{Roleblockers target someone during the night. If their target attempted to perform an action that same night, it'll fail. If the target does not/cannot perform an action (which is pretty much anything, including kills), nothing happens. It's up to the mod if the target knows they were blocked or not. The scum players decide which will perform the kill. If that player is blocked, then there is no kill (Mod/Darvi, correct me if I am wrong). A player cannot peform more than one action unless their role states otherwise. By stalker, I guess you mean role-cop.}

Superblackcat, you are far too unconcerned with the lynch and using it. Why would you not want to use the town's greatest asset?

Finally, SBC, Kleril and MrZero: Quote. Seriously. Or link. I often have to guess what you are referring to.

Quote from: Superblackcat on October 04, 2013, 09:37:21 pm

DS:Have you been lurking Deathsword? Have you been viewing this thread, and just not posting? If so, why aren't you posting?

I tend to take time when posting, even if the post tends to be rather small. A lot gets typed and then deleted. A lot is re-read several times. I often check on the thread, but do not have the time to post. For example, this post took about an hour and a half to complete.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day
Post by: Superblackcat on October 05, 2013, 01:11:01 pm

@Deathsword, I'm quite happy to lynch someone, but no one in this game has enough evidence against them. (thus far). I am currently voting my highest scum (that i see), and I do think I am scum hunting. However, other than MrZero setting of *ding* bells in my head, no one else seems to be scummy enough for me to agree on lynching them. Also, no one else see the ding, so I'm not sure if I'm just really biased against him.


Also, Would it be possible for you to check in, at least once a day, therefore letting us know whether you are here, and allowing you to respond. It's hard to play with inactivity, even if each post is of high quality.

@Persus: As of now, reading everything without being very involved in the game yet, who do you think is the most scummy, who do you think is the most town like? Who are you confused about? Bring light of a person not yet biased by the game.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day
Post by: Superblackcat on October 05, 2013, 01:12:16 pm

Also, Update on How many more vote for an extend?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day
Post by: Mr.Zero on October 05, 2013, 01:20:12 pm

Uff, busy days and forum at my post some time ago. Anyho, questions first.

IC's: So now that luke is gone, do we disregard any previous statements about him? Like Luke played dumb? Since the person that is playing now is probably nowhere near Luke behavior.

Quote from: kleril on October 04, 2013, 02:38:00 pm

@Mr. Zero:

Quote from: Mr.Zero on September 30, 2013, 03:42:19 am

I suppose i could give out my top town which is Rolepgeek.

What's Rolepgeek done to take the spot of top town, for you? He seems to be overly hostile and uncooperative, in my eyes.

Overly hostile? So... Since when is aggressive scum hunting a bad thing?The only party that doesn't benefit from aggressive scum hunting is the scum team, no? At least he IS doing some progress in the hunting, while SBC is trying to deflect/defend/strike back and concentrates more on getting the next 2 days NL's than trying to find scum today ( In the sense of the first mafia day).

Quote from: Superblackcat on October 04, 2013, 06:50:46 pm

@MrZero: "Rolepgeek: Looks like town to me. He acts a bit passively but it doesn't match the shit SBC,Luke and Kleril's (Because of the points Imp has shown) have pulled off."


HOLY SHIT! That is just scum tell right there.

"SBC,Luke and Kleril's (Because of the points Imp has shown)"

The scum tell in there, actually two, is that first of all. You didn't question ANYTHING, Imp said. Are you telling me that you agree with every single point in that behemoth post? Or did you just skim the "VOTE KLERIL" part, and then decided to include his name?

Also, You proceed to say luke is just dumb? Why the contradiction? Why include Luke's name in the first place?

for this, you deserve a Vote (MrZero)

I... what? You ask me to reveal my top town picks/scum picks and THEN you vote me for revealing it? Like wtf. Did i even mention that some players didn't mention theirs? Is the heat coming trough to you?

Quote from: Superblackcat on October 04, 2013, 06:50:46 pm

You seem to understand Imp very well... Might you be getting clarifications, or just frankly status updates with eachother... in a certain thing called Scum chat?

You two seems to be working together. It wasn't very apparent in the previous posts, but because of that post, I've noticed you guys have basically agreed on everything.

Totally, and you?

Quote

@kleril: As of now, I believe we should vote MrZero. However, you forget something very important. Cops, and Roleblockers

Damn, the convincing is strong in here..... You really should try to do better. I also particularly like the way you ignored kleril for most the game and then suddenly buddy him.

"Hey friend, i'm getting shit over here/ Give me a hand. *wink wink* *nudge nudge*"


@Darvi, ffs. That's hypocracy, you mention behemoths and you create one yourself. I tried to fork that thing over into neat quotes but it's too much of a hassle as i have trouble spotting what is directed at me and isn't. I will gladly answer every question you have if you show a clear indication that the question is directed at me. Also cut that style, it's more of a pain to read than Imp's.


@Deathsword: No offense but i've used quotes in (nearly) every of my posts, if you aren't even bothered to click on the quote number of the quoted part then i cannot help you.

Extend for new guy.

Regarding this piece of text;

Quote

@MrZero: "Rolepgeek: Looks like town to me. He acts a bit passively but it doesn't match the shit SBC,Luke and Kleril's (Because of the points Imp has shown) have pulled off."

Dunno why i added luke to scummy while i mentioned him being stupid, mistake on my part. At that time i was amazed of the OMGUS vote and his name was flying trough my head.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day
Post by: Persus13 on October 05, 2013, 01:47:36 pm

@SBC

Quote from: Superblackcat on October 04, 2013, 09:37:21 pm

@Darvi, You would be my current top town tell, because with that one post, it's gone through more than anyone else, except for maybe Imp. And frankly, I like your logic. Of course, I do think that you could be a wolf in sheeps clothing, and looking at that veteraness in those posts, I can see how easily you could probably pretend to be town. And how well you would do it.

Agreed, for me its hard to figure out if Darvi and Deathsword are town or not, especially since the use {IC voice} alot.

Quote

Also, my basis for MrZero's FOS came several pages back. I'm not sure I remember exactly why.

This makes you look a little scummy. If you aren't sure why, then trawl through and find why.

Quote

However, they were calling me out on "Not helping town". I did what I normally do in other games to scum hunt. Ask people to list top FoSes and Town Tells, I then continued to list my own.

Directly afterwards, I got blown off by MrZero. It seems that he doesn't want anyone to know who he suspects, or who he thinks is town. I think the two people he has mentioned is Imp (Town), Me (Scum).

The problem with your scum-hunting strategy is that it isn't aggressive scum-hunting, which this forum focuses on. You can't really get good reads on whether or not people are scum, or whether or not people are town (although that is less important), unless you start asking questions and pressuring. Asking people for who their opinions on who is scum, especially relatively early on Day 1, isn't really helpful or scum-hunting, and thus falls under active-lurking, which is a scum tell. For instance I don't really have a strong scum pick. A few people seem fairly scummy to me (Ex. Rolepgeek, and you), and I don't really care about who is town at the moment because the goal isn't who is town, its who is mafia. And i'm only sure about one person who isn't mafia.

Quote

However, after that post, I kinda felt a *ding* in my head, and I felt like pieces fit together. MrZero and Imp have highly different posting styles, and frankly, I would believe, personalities. However, they have managed to support each other on every point either of them have made, and not go against each other at all.

To some extent recently I've seen this too, but at least in the beginning of the game, these two didn't like each other. (Ex.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Quote from: Imp on September 28, 2013, 05:02:19 am

@Mr.Zero:
I hated your first post in this thread.  From sentence structure to what and how you were asking - and too, that your question to me as asked did not make much sense to me - I was expecting bad things of you.  Every post you've made I've liked more than that first one, and my respect of and comfort with you has grown steadily.  I'm still watching everything you do, and you look like you're scum hunting to me. I have no new questions for you now - but I do hope you still answer the one I asked most recently when the timing is convenient for you.

)

However, reading Imp's posts it seems she has referred to everyone as scum but Mr. Zero and Squill. I may be wrong about that so if someone wants to quote something showing I'm wrong, please do.

Quote

Right now, I believe that Scum is 2 out of MrZero, Imp, and kleril.

Even though Imp and to a lesser extant Mr. Zero are both targeting kleril you think 2 of the 3 are scum? Do you think one is trying to bus kleril to allay suspicions?

Quote

So, that means, I believe all the others are town.

Really. You are so certain on the first day it's one of the three above that your willing to ignore everyone else as town?

Quote

Could everyone list their genders please, This guessing game is too hard.

Male

Quote

ehhh... Rolepgeek... Has flown under my radar the whole time. Therefore, Rolepgeek, would you please list who you think is scummy? (2 min) and who you think is most town like (2 min).

Agreed

Quote from: Superblackcat on October 05, 2013, 01:11:01 pm

@Persus: As of now, reading everything without being very involved in the game yet, who do you think is the most scummy, who do you think is the most town like? Who are you confused about? Bring light of a person not yet biased by the game.

Please see my above response to your last post. However, right now I'm getting scummy feelings about Rolepgeek (mainly because of lurking, and being ignored by everyone), you, Kleril (because now he's attacking you as scum, but hasn't changed his vote of me) and maybe an Imp/Mr. Zero team. Squill I'm not so sure on. and I'm struggling not to trust Deathsword/Darvi because I tend to trust people, especially if they are the "mentor figure".  And as I said above, town picks aren't what I'm focused on because that's not the goal of the game. There isn't anything that can tell you if someone's town, but there are lots of scum tells.

Quote from: Superblackcat on October 05, 2013, 01:12:16 pm

Also, Update on How many more vote for an extend?

I believe we had one more needed, and that was provided by Zero.

@Deathsword

Quote from: Deathsword on October 05, 2013, 12:48:13 pm

-snip-

Thanks for posting

Quote

Superblackcat, you are far too unconcerned with the lynch and using it. Why would you not want to use the town's greatest asset?

I assume your unvoting me if you are voting SBC?

Quote

Finally, SBC, Kleril and MrZero: Quote. Seriously. Or link. I often have to guess what you are referring to.

Yes please

@Mr. Zero

Quote from: Mr.Zero on October 05, 2013, 01:20:12 pm

IC's: So now that luke is gone, do we disregard any previous statements about him? Like Luke played dumb? Since the person that is playing now is probably nowhere near Luke behavior.

I have a name you know. And I think Luke was just out of his depth and not quite ready for a Mafia game and was just trying to keep quiet and avoid the sharks, which didn't work. if our places were switched, I'd probably keep my judgement of Luke in mind, but avoid connecting what he said with his replacement.

Quote

@kleril: As of now, I believe we should vote MrZero. However, you forget something very important. Cops, and Roleblockers

Damn, the convincing is strong in here..... You really should try to do better. I also particularly like the way you ignored kleril for most the game and then suddenly buddy him.

"Hey friend, i'm getting shit over here/ Give me a hand. *wink wink* *nudge nudge*"
[/quote]
Wait, can you link to this, blatant case of buddying please? And if SBC is buddying Kleril, why do you think Kleril appears to be suddenly saying he thinks SBC is scum?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day
Post by: Persus13 on October 05, 2013, 02:03:21 pm

Official takeback time:

Quote from: Persus13 on October 05, 2013, 01:47:36 pm

Quote

@kleril: As of now, I believe we should vote MrZero. However, you forget something very important. Cops, and Roleblockers

Damn, the convincing is strong in here..... You really should try to do better. I also particularly like the way you ignored kleril for most the game and then suddenly buddy him.

"Hey friend, i'm getting shit over here/ Give me a hand. *wink wink* *nudge nudge*"

Wait, can you link to this, blatant case of buddying please? And if SBC is buddying Kleril, why do you think Kleril appears to be suddenly saying he thinks SBC is scum?
[/quote]
I just looked at this post in context, and it seems like a less blatant case of buddying to me. SBC's above quote was responding to the following  post by Kleril:

Quote from: kleril on October 04, 2013, 02:38:00 pm

@SBC

Quote from: Superblackcat on September 29, 2013, 12:36:55 pm

Personally, because I think the chance of actually killing the mafia is quite small, I would prefer two NL's. However, if there was something drastic happen, in the next several of hours, a RL may be what we need.

While on paper, this seems to be the best approach, the game is meant to be played. Odds are that as town we can play cohesively enough to make a mafia member stumble and say something incriminating. I've played very few games of mafia where scum hasn't been voted off, or at least confirmed in the minds of the group, by the end of day one. It's rare that scum can play well enough during day one to keep on top of everyone setting the stage for the rest of the game.
On top of that, the most powerful use for a lynch is the ability to choose. Everyone's got at least a rough idea of who's suspicious, and eliminating one of them means that the next day becomes easier to choose correctly.
e.g. Losing you or Lukinator during the day is more beneficial than losing, say, Squill during the night, as now we have fewer scummy players to choose between.

So, do you still believe a NL is good for town? Have you ever? Or are you just pushing the idea forward to sway the game in favour of scum?

And after reading these two posts it's clearer that it isn't buddying, its just that SBC was using we to refer to the town as a whole in response to Kleril's question asking if SBC believed a NL was good for town. And then SBC goes on to explain that he thinks Kleril is wrong because of cops and roleblockers.
The problem I have with SBC's argument is he is focusing on a perfect town game. If the cop gets killed or worse, lynched, or the roleblocker blocks the cop by mistake, then SBC's plan goes wrong.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day
Post by: Superblackcat on October 05, 2013, 02:27:00 pm

Oh man, do I feel stupid. I thought this was a 7/2 game, and I just now, noticed this is a 9/2 game.

So now, let me clear things up. I only believe in the NL in a 7/2 game, as a 9/2 game, the chances of hitting a mafia is much higher, in a sense, because we get 2 days to lynch. Also, that means we can RL twice without much consequence.

Thus, I completely support Lynching today. Also, just saying, I don't think a 9/2 game is very balanced for the mafia.

@Persus
My FoS was originally based off of MrZero's first question. After I stated it, MrZero started attacking me, saying I was stating "redundant things"... MrZero just attacked kleril for not stating "redundant things".

I never voted MrZero until now, because there has been pile upon pile (Not really, more like 4-5) inconsistencies, some of them small, some of them across several pages, but they are there. Also, Imp, who has given everyone the "FOS" eye, did not turn her eye towards MrZero, something I find very suspicious. However, I like Imp more than I like MrZero...

Also, I would completely disagree with you about the town thing. If you can't find the two mafia, but instead, you know 4 are, frankly in your opinion, basically confirmed town. Then... Wala, You can narrow that mafia down to 3, or 2, or however many, depending how many are left in the game.

No, I do not believe the other are all comfirmed town, but yes, I do think most of them are town at least. The two that I am not sure of (DeathSword and Rolepgeek) I posted about below.

I'm quite wary of kleril, because of after Imp's attack on him, his response, was well... As bad as mine. Sadly, I can see why you guys voted me for some of my posts earlier.

Anyways, kleril immediately redirects attention to me, because Imp and MrZero included me inside the assessment. Seems very scummy.

Frankly, What I mean is that if Imp and MrZero aren't scum, I think kleril is, I do not think kleril is partner with either of them, and I could see him being a partner with rolepgeek, as kleril has basically ignored him, even though most other people has directly addressed him, looking for more activity. Right now, I get the feeling that rolepgeek is lurking, not inactive.

@MrZero, I didn't vote you for giving your foses, I voted you for, as you can see in my post, not questioning anything Imp said.

I can't vote someone for... Not doing what I ask, I can for pulling out several scumtells when answering what I asked.

I'm pretty sure you didn't even read through my whole post, because you just pulled out tiny parts of it, and decided that was my whole post.

Quote

Quote from: Superblackcat on October 04, 2013, 06:50:46 pm
You seem to understand Imp very well... Might you be getting clarifications, or just frankly status updates with eachother... in a certain thing called Scum chat?

You two seems to be working together. It wasn't very apparent in the previous posts, but because of that post, I've noticed you guys have basically agreed on everything.

Totally, and you?

What do you mean by that? Do you agree that you guys are in Scum chat, Do explain exactly what you mean by "Totally and you?"

Also, what are you looking for me to answer.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day
Post by: Persus13 on October 05, 2013, 03:36:16 pm

@SBC

Thank you for your responses.

@Squill:
Haven't heard much from you. Who are you interested in scum hunting? Now that I've replaced Lukinator, you going to change anything you do?

@Kleril:
Several people have accused you of being scummy, but only one is actually voting you. What are your thoughts?

Also, do you realize you are in the scummy third vote on me (aka bandwagoning) and you appear to be deflecting Imp's attack by attacking SBC? And why haven't you changed your ote if you keep talking about how SBC is scummy and not changing your vote. Are you that determined to get rid of someone who was obviously out of their depth?

@Mr. Zero:
You said a while back you thought Rolepgeek was town. WHy?

@zombie_urist: Is there anyway we can track post count?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day
Post by: Imp on October 05, 2013, 03:52:07 pm

Hey all!  I type slower than I read - I am stealing moments from worktime to stay current but really don't have time to say much (Sunday I get current on posting, as previously promised), but want to respond with my answer to this:

Quote from: Persus13 on October 05, 2013, 03:36:16 pm

@zombie_urist: Is there anyway we can track post count?

to give the fastest possible answer and a work around, because being better able to follow any player's posts seems VERY useful to me and I've already done so several times this game -

zombie previously made a way, currently seems broken, some comments in thread (one made by ZU, no time to find and link it if I'm also to finish what I want to say) support that it is broken.  Here's the broken tool -  http://www.ocf.berkeley.edu/~azhou/projects/LT/

That page has a link to another, earlier version made by someone else, here:

http://www.think0028.com/lurkertracker.html

And that one was working at the start of our play, and I liked using it but it has been broken too for the last several days.  I keep checking it every so often and hoping.

So, what I am doing since I can't find a better way, when I want to track posts from one of us, I click on player name to get to profile, then I find the posts link on left side of the page and open that, then scroll down their posts.  This is super easy for those of us who are primarily just posting in this thread right now - for everyone else, I copy and paste out just this game's posts to most easily consider them.

If anyone has a currently working easier method, I really want to know how to do it.

Hope this helps, throwing myself back into work with a shout of encouragement - I love the current activity level of the thread, I find a lot of useful information being asked and discussed by multiple players, and I am very much looking forward to tomorrow when I can give real time to interaction here without hurting the rest of my life.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day
Post by: Squill on October 05, 2013, 06:19:29 pm

Quote from: Persus13 on October 05, 2013, 03:36:16 pm

@SBC

@Squill:
Haven't heard much from you. Who are you interested in scum hunting? Now that I've replaced Lukinator, you going to change anything you do?

@Persus13: Lukinator was just playing atrociously. I can't be satisfied just because he's gone.
What do you think of your predecessors actions? Why do you think he reacted so vehemently to anything said against him?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day
Post by: Persus13 on October 05, 2013, 06:45:32 pm

Quote from: Squill on October 05, 2013, 06:19:29 pm

Quote from: Persus13 on October 05, 2013, 03:36:16 pm

@SBC

@Squill:
Haven't heard much from you. Who are you interested in scum hunting? Now that I've replaced Lukinator, you going to change anything you do?

@Persus13: Lukinator was just playing atrociously. I can't be satisfied just because he's gone.
What do you think of your predecessors actions? Why do you think he reacted so vehemently to anything said against him?

My opinion of Lukinator was, I believe I've said before, out of his depth. Bay12 mafia and real life mafia are two very different kettles of fish. Bay12 involves lots of questioning, pressuring, and is more psychological based than RL mafia. I think my predecessor's actions was bad playing by someone who didn't understand the rules, and his dropping out reinforced that. I viewed Luke as town even before I got my role PM.

Also, reacted so vehemently to what was said against him? His last post was the one where he voted you and he said it was because no one else had voted you, which set off the big attacks against him. And before that he was just answering people's questions. And even with the post where he voted you, it was a response to a question from Mr. Zero on why he hadn't voted yet. The only other post where he's defending or attacking was this:

Quote from: Lukeinator on September 30, 2013, 05:41:21 pm

As for Scum Imp seems pretty suspicious, lynching people for not having a lot of time on one night.

So I think vehemently reacting wasn't happening.

Right now, I'd rather scumhunt (except the two I'm focusing at the moment on haven't responded for a while) than defend Lukinator because defending a replaced player won't help town if I get lynched, but focusing on scumhunting will.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day
Post by: zombie urist on October 05, 2013, 07:00:43 pm

LT is fixed! I actually purposefully disabled LT a while ago for security reasons and now I un-disabled it. I think someone else on the server did something, but since everyone is using the same database it affected all accounts.

Lurker Tracker link for this game (http://www.ocf.berkeley.edu/~azhou/projects/LT/zt.py?topic=130600&start=0&msg=4635015&sort=user&numreplace=2&replaced0=griffinpup&replacer0=Darvi&replaced1=Lukeinator&replacer1=Persus13&player0=Tiruin&label0=np&numlabel=1)

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day
Post by: Persus13 on October 05, 2013, 10:48:24 pm

Quote from: zombie urist on October 05, 2013, 07:00:43 pm

LT is fixed! I actually purposefully disabled LT a while ago for security reasons and now I un-disabled it. I think someone else on the server did something, but since everyone is using the same database it affected all accounts.

Lurker Tracker link for this game (http://www.ocf.berkeley.edu/~azhou/projects/LT/zt.py?topic=130600&start=0&msg=4635015&sort=user&numreplace=2&replaced0=griffinpup&replacer0=Darvi&replaced1=Lukeinator&replacer1=Persus13&player0=Tiruin&label0=np&numlabel=1)

Thanks, also I think Rolepgeek deserves a prod.

Unvote

Looked through RPgeek's posts and seemed pretty lurky, but I'm changing my vote to Kleril as he has seemed pretty scummy.

1. Deflection to SBC after the Behemoth was posted (here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4660025#msg4660025) and claiming that because scum knows Kleril thinks SBC is scum, they'll change their plans, and blaming Imp for that. Also here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4661195#msg4661195): Attacking SBC for being a newb and asking Mods/IC for clarification on Roleblockers)

2. Jumped on the lynch Lukinator bandwagon (while this is understandable, I'm pretty confident at least one scum jumped on this bandwagon, which means Kleril, Deathsword, Squill, Darvi, or Imp is scum, and at the moment, Kleril and Deathsword look the most scummy out of the 5)

3. The whole faith in Imp not being scum is strange, plus has focused almost solely on Imp and to a lesser extant Lukinator, and has been mainly defending himself even before the Behemoth. His 8th post on.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day
Post by: Superblackcat on October 05, 2013, 11:18:22 pm

@Persus, Since you believe kleril is scum, who do you think his partner is?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day
Post by: Persus13 on October 05, 2013, 11:28:54 pm

Quote from: Superblackcat on October 05, 2013, 11:18:22 pm

@Persus, Since you believe kleril is scum, who do you think his partner is?

Not completely sure. Imp's pretty sure your Kleril's partner, but there's a few people I can cross off. If Kleril's scum, then I'm pretty sure Imp isn't scum as the two have been arguing for pretty much the entire game. Otherwise the choices are pretty open.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day
Post by: zombie urist on October 05, 2013, 11:34:38 pm

Day has been extended to Thursday October 10th 9PM PST. I have another midterm on Wednesday so this extension is longer.

Persus13 - kleril, Squill
Squill -
Superblackcat - Deathsword, Mr.Zero
Mr.Zero - Superblackcat
Imp - Darvi, Rolepgeek
kleril - Imp, Persus13
Rolepgeek -
Deathsword -
Darvi -

Not voting -

0 to extend
0 to shorten

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day
Post by: Imp on October 06, 2013, 12:41:23 am

I believe the 'Superblackcat - Deathswordsuperblackcat' is actually 'Superblackcat - Deathsword, Mr.Zero'

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day
Post by: Squill on October 06, 2013, 06:42:35 am

Quote from: Persus13 on October 05, 2013, 06:45:32 pm

Quote from: Squill on October 05, 2013, 06:19:29 pm

Quote from: Persus13 on October 05, 2013, 03:36:16 pm

@SBC

@Squill:
Haven't heard much from you. Who are you interested in scum hunting? Now that I've replaced Lukinator, you going to change anything you do?

@Persus13: Lukinator was just playing atrociously. I can't be satisfied just because he's gone.
What do you think of your predecessors actions? Why do you think he reacted so vehemently to anything said against him?

My opinion of Lukinator was, I believe I've said before, out of his depth. Bay12 mafia and real life mafia are two very different kettles of fish. Bay12 involves lots of questioning, pressuring, and is more psychological based than RL mafia. I think my predecessor's actions was bad playing by someone who didn't understand the rules, and his dropping out reinforced that. I viewed Luke as town even before I got my role PM.

Also, reacted so vehemently to what was said against him? His last post was the one where he voted you and he said it was because no one else had voted you, which set off the big attacks against him. And before that he was just answering people's questions. And even with the post where he voted you, it was a response to a question from Mr. Zero on why he hadn't voted yet. The only other post where he's defending or attacking was this:

Quote from: Lukeinator on September 30, 2013, 05:41:21 pm

As for Scum Imp seems pretty suspicious, lynching people for not having a lot of time on one night.

So I think vehemently reacting wasn't happening.

Right now, I'd rather scumhunt (except the two I'm focusing at the moment on haven't responded for a while) than defend Lukinator because defending a replaced player won't help town if I get lynched, but focusing on scumhunting will.

Alright, that's good enough for now.
Unvote

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day
Post by: Imp on October 06, 2013, 07:59:37 am

Ok!  Now I'm free to start focusing here.  It's dreadfully early in the morning for me and there's a lot of stuff I want to respond to, so I'm just going to start.  When sleepiness overcomes motivation, I'm stopping and sleeping, then I'll be back to cover the rest and catch up on new stuff past this point.  Either way, I intend to get fully caught up today.

First, here's the link-fixed parts of the 'behemoth', thrown in spoilers so they don't blind those of you who don't want to read every word (possibly again).  Only the three broken links have been changed for the portion devoted to Kleril:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Quote from: Imp on October 04, 2013, 03:45:33 am

Kleril is my top Scum pick.  I think there is about a 96% likelihood that he is Scum, and feel about 90% sure that I am right in my assessment of him and his play.

---

This is my assessment of Kleril, and his links to Superblackcat:
1)  He was the first to speak of something odd about Superblackcat’s unusual first post (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4636720#msg4636720), saying “Interesting choice of pronoun there, bud. There something we should know? (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4637603#msg4637603)”  Kleril never followed up on this – never even answered Mr.Zero’s  (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4640177#msg4640177) “Even though you asked a little bit more than blackcat, you didn't actively pursue this (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4637603#msg4637603). Why so? Aren't you curious?”

     Note it seems unlikely that he totally missed it – combined with Mr.Zero’s question about his reaction to Cat was also a question about what bandwagon Kleril called me on, and also a question about why Kleril hadn’t voted for me on it.  Following post is Deathsword’s vote on Kleril, his {voice} clarifying that what I’d done wasn’t a bandwagon, then speaking again as a player and challenging Kleril’s lack of a vote with his words of suspicion.

     Kleril responds with a vote on me and an affirmation that I came “after Deathsword after a pressure vote. Rule of thumb the person following that is scum (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4641459#msg4641459)” despite what the others have said about what a bandwagon is, but he ignores completely the question about Cat; he never revisits it, even as others continue to talk about suspicion of Cat, talk about that specific post of Cat’s, explore Cat’s claimed philosophy… Kleril has no interest in Cat, despite his original words about Cat having being suspicious.  Even when Kleril claims to be using me as some sort of touchstone (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4655270#msg4655270), Kleril STILL doesn’t have anything to say about Cat, even though he does finally (after again having been challenged about not using his vote (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4653377#msg4653377)) vote for Luke after Luke has gained four other votes.

2)   Recently, Kleril has this interesting dynamic going with me.  He says weird things about his own thoughts like how “completely convinced (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4647868#msg4647868)” he is that I am Town; that “all my thoughts on who's town and who's scum are built off the foundation that at least one person is town, them being you. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4655270#msg4655270)”.  Scum have no doubt about who else is and isn’t Town.  Additionally, a Scum knows he or she is not Town themself.  I believe this cannot be Town reasoning.

3)   Kleril’s eventual explanation about his pursuit of my bandwagoning seems tuned to my statements of my perceptions, and seems to me like an attempt tuned after the fact to allay my suspicions.  On examination it happens to seem highly implausible as truth – unless he had little interest in the votecounts each day, which seems Scummy to me as well.  Everyone should recognize at a glance when they place a vote and the votecount shows it wrong.  Scum have different reasons to check the votecount than Town, and might not even bother to truly look at it until they think it’s going to show something interesting to them. [/list]

---

And here's the portion devoted to Superblackcat.  In it one broken link is fixed, and because I wanted to spoiler it the whole I had to unspoiler the spoiler that had been; it is still clearly marked beginning and end.   Otherwise this too is unchanged.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Quote from: Imp on October 04, 2013, 03:45:33 am

---

I’ve already made a case against Superblackcat.  Two and a quarter cases, actually, the first one (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4642894#msg4642894) where I discuss his original scummy play based on everything I’d seen up to that point; the ‘quarter case (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4647305#msg4647305)’ where I try to reduce the pressure upon Superblackcat – not because I am a Scum-loving weakling, before anyone wonders – but because I would prefer to catch actual current-role Scum, not weak players who make one or many mistakes and have no real idea how to defend themselves, and have happened to have been given a Town role – and believing I have recognized him (or her) as a player unable to defend himself well I wished to invite him to play with less stress, showing though either words (the poorer choice) or though genuine and comprehensible Town play (the much more convincing method) that he was innocent.  After all, having –identified a Scum-, if I had at that point, he’s already a belled Superblackcat.  If I’m wrong about him, I want him showing it so I can decide if he’s actually Scum or not.  If I’m right about it – well, given the mistakes he already made, there would probably be quite a few more, and more clear, tells.

And there have been – thus my second full case (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4648338#msg4648338) about Superblackcat, made –despite- my desire to lower the pressure upon him (her?) because what my second full case is based on (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4648150#msg4648150) I see Superblackcat make a really clear error.  Despite the distance between Superblackcat and everyone up to this point, as of his ‘summing it up’ post that I base my second case on, he shows his connection to Kleril.  For one, he agrees with what Kleril says about me – though it’s not clear if he’s agreeing with Kleril’s most recent post (Imp is certainly Town (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4647868#msg4647868)) or his second most recent post (Imp is rule of thumb Scum (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4641459#msg4641459)).  Either way, despite this agreement I somehow don’t make his list of top Town or top Scum

Who does make his three lists is interesting.  Top Town is Squill, because “I like his reasoning thus far, and the way he responded to me does not sound like mafia. Mafia wouldn't care if I was self preserving”
Interestingly, this is almost identical to Kleril’s “Squill - He's my top town (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4655270#msg4655270). He posts little, but does so frequently, and all of his contributions are valuable. He holds very little self interest, and serves the town well at opportune times.” and “I trust Squill because they've said the perfect things at the perfect times, and are swinging this game in favour of the town. All posts make it clear where their loyalties lie (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4659419#msg4659419).”

But as of the point both these players start to make this assertion, Squill’s only made 9 posts.  This spoiler sums up these 9 posts that Superblackcat and Kleril really like the reasoning of:

THIS WAS SPOILER START
1st answering questions, promising to ask some at 'some point' (which has still not come!  I cry lies!  But Superblackcat and Kleril cry top Town)

2nd answering questions, reacting to a Vote, promising to stick the game out, and responding to a challenge of lurking

3rd correcting an error in the 2nd post

4th (after a motivational speech) answering a question, asking that questioner 1 question back.  (sure it was a great question, a question I found personally useful because of how it was answered - but still.... one question only... one person only)

5th Asking a question to clarify a question asked

6th Answering half of a question, stating more time needed to answer other half.

7th Chiding Superblackcat for self preservation

8th A somewhat jocular and two line analysis of a portion of game play not directly involving Squill himself (didn't involve Superblackcat or Kleril either).

9th Answering the other half of the question.
THIS WAS A SPOILER END

Superblackcat's top Scum is Mr.Zero, for weird original RVS questions (He complained about –everyone’s- questions initially, not singling out Mr.Zero’s (though Kleril did); he’s asked “@Deathsword, enlighten me. What is the point of asking questions such as: What is your first mafia game? or things along the lines.” And answered “@Rolepeek No, but I think the questions should be relevant to the game, instead of random questions like you guys are asking, and the massive amounts of questions.” – in general, he doesn’t like anyone’s questions.

But his other reason given for voting Mr.Zero was “then blew this [list your top town and FOS] question off, while showing that he saw it, seems like He is trying to hide who he wants dead.”  If Superblackcat believes Scum try to hide who they want dead, AND if he agrees with Kleril about me, then my name should be in Town or in Scum, depending on which opinion of Kleril’s he is agreeing with.  Makes me feel ‘hidden from the list’, but Town don’t have much reason for this.

Otherwise, his SECOND top scum pick is our now gone Griffinpup, absent all game (that means shame on Griff, but how can that make him seem the second most likely Scum?  Unless you have a solid sense of all the other 7 players and deeply believe all of them but one to be Scum (or know all 7 of them are Town, because you are Scum)… but if Superblackcat believes this, then he should have made that belief very clear in this post – he doesn’t say it at all.

And his THIRD scum pick has a reason, “No activity after being voted... Seems kinda like lurk...” which he changes after posting to “My bad, Deathsword became inactive 2days and 8 hours ago [including weekend time], However, not directly after vote. He became inactive after me and Imp had large walls of text.”  Superblackcat’s sole reason given for thinking Deathsword Scum changed.  But if this reason changed, Superblackcat expresses no awareness of his suspicion changing.

And then he has an ‘Others’ category.  Having talked about 4 players as Town/Scum, he speaks only about one as being an ‘others’:  Kleril.  Superblackcat says “kleril doesn't seem scum, but He hasn't had enough activity of the late for me to tell...”  (At this point, Kleril has made 6 posts)  Doesn’t bother to put anyone else in the Others category; follows this statement about Kleril with “I agree with what kleril said”.

Note the sudden focus on Kleril.  The claim he doesn’t think Kleril’s Scum, but apparently not sure enough to say Town, he doesn’t give me any impression he’s been closely following anyone prior to this in the game, but now he agrees with Kleril, without any specifics given.

As of his ‘self defense’ post, he may have started paying close attention to Mr.Zero and myself(“two most active people in this game is after me”); for sure by his ‘top picks’ post he is, especially to me, and also suddenly to Kleril; But where’d this close attention to Kleril come from?  Why this sudden shift in tone, attitude, focus, and styles of posting, which occurred for both Kleril and Superblackcat on the same day, in posts placed two hours apart from each others?

---

I am convinced these changes came from Scum chat.  I am convinced Kleril and Superblackcat are our Scum.

Next post will have new stuff.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day
Post by: Superblackcat on October 06, 2013, 02:05:32 pm

It's been 5 hours of nervous waiting :<

Squill, Could you completely answer my question? By giving thoughts about every, and not just myself?

Since, I'm up there in your scum list, there must be others right? Who would they be and why? Or are you just jumping on bandwagons.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day
Post by: Imp on October 06, 2013, 03:16:16 pm

@Superblackcat and those who wish a deeper look at 'what I saw then as Scummy about Superblackcat':

Quote from: Superblackcat on October 06, 2013, 02:05:32 pm

It's been 5 hours of nervous waiting :<

For me, it's been >5 hours of very careful link checking + a few thousand words of typing.  Happily for you, or not, it happens to be almost entirely focused on you - from before my 'Behemoth'.  It answers primarily your question about what I see as your inexplicable sudden focus on Kleril at a very interesting time, and a few related other questions.  It says NOTHING about your change of play past Behemoth.

Sorry guy, intention's not to torment you.  And 'what I saw' doesn't mean it's vanished now - just means I'm clarifying -then-, as asked.  I'm not done talking about you, just this one was the hardest one to write because it has a lot of links and requires a lot of detailed explanation to show.

Do talk.  Talk to everyone if you want, and if you'd include in your focus those I have talked to the least, I'd consider it a personal favor, be you Scum or Town.  Scum hunt, play the best you can, do everything you can to help your team, no matter what your team is.  You're not going to look worse to me if you act like Town - even if you hunt me.  Believe you me, if I pressure you because you pressure me - if I pressure you or anyone for any reason other than solid real based logic, I throw everything I have said yet and intend to still say before D1 ends into even greater suspicion than it now has.

However, if you are Town, you help Town a lot by not JUST hunting me.  Just saying, y'know.  And I think I've shown a tendency to want to Scum hunt - there's some concerns about that, I'm going to address them in upcoming post(s), along with other points.  So, your questions help us all see Scum/Town, you help us all (me too!) hunt the real Scum.  You act less like Scum, you eat less of my time trying to decide if I really think you are Scum or not.  This analysis that follows will hopefully help you see what looks like Scum to me in what you've done - should you still be clueless - you're not seeming so now, but that's all I'll say about now, now.  This post's about then.

Quote from: Superblackcat on October 04, 2013, 06:50:46 pm

Anyways, onto the meat.

@Imp, Where did I suddenly focus on kleril?

"As of his ‘self defense’ post, he may have started paying close attention to Mr.Zero and myself(“two most active people in this game is after me”); for sure by his ‘top picks’ post he is, especially to me, and also suddenly to Kleril; But where’d this close attention to Kleril come from?  Why this sudden shift in tone, attitude, focus, and styles of posting, which occurred for both Kleril and Superblackcat on the same day, in posts placed two hours apart from each others?"

What in the hell do you mean?

One thing you ask is for clarification of where your sudden focus on Kleril is.  To show it, the second spoiler in this thread contains my analysis of each of your posts this game, up to my 'behemoth'.  Your posts after that point are also worth analysis, but they are a very different thing, and are not part of why you appear Scummily connected to Kleril to me as I discuss in Behemoth. 

I largely agree with you - for most of your posts there is no link to Kleril and in fact you look like you're playing totally independently... until your post 8 - then suddenly, bolt out of the blue, your writing style has greatly changed, your reasoning patterns have greatly changed, AND a random-looking connection to Kleril is suddenly just there.  Either you did include him randomly, or you included him SUPER specifically, and with careful and not-like-your-playstyle-alone strategy  Either is possible, and it is useful in my decisionmaking ONLY because I see both you and Kleril as being independently Scummy.

Why do I care if Superblackcat is possibly connected to Kleril, especially on D1?  I -really- don't want to set up a mislynch, and I believe in gestalt.  The parts and the whole are both equally present, equally real, and equally meaningful.  I believe, right or wrong, that if they are both Scum then even now, there could be evidence, so I looked to see if there was anything to see.

Keep in mind, we have an IC saying basically, 'hey, don't go there yet.  That type of connective analysis doesn't mean anything yet or go anywhere yet; you prove one Scum, then comb the Scum's posts for such patterns.'

Well, I already went there before that suggestion.  Already wrote about it, and got asked about.  Here's my answers about it.

Considered alone, to me Superblackcat looks extremely scummy because of his own actions in play throughout the game.  Considered alone, for totally different reasons to me Kleril also looks extremely, vastly more extremely! scummy because of his own actions in play throughout the game.

That's two Scum, if this is a correct evaluation.  If they are aware of the value (and peril) of Scumchat, then there is communication between them (not all newbie scum do know and use).  If this is the case, then their play even as of first posting in play, can be considered for interaction between them that may support or weaken the hypothesis 'Kleril and Superblackcat are a Scumteam'.  If either of them is not a Scum, or if both are not, it's a total waste of time.  But they both got hit with a bunch of pressure, and that can make things happen.  Did it?  So I considered the possibility that they are our Scumteam, and this is my general analysis, considering BOTH of them from start of play to Just before Behemoth

(But it doesn't touch what Kleril talks about when he says...

Quote from: kleril on October 04, 2013, 11:17:11 am

Whelp, my timing sucks.

...I'll react to that upcoming.)

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

1)  Kleril spotted a mistake and lightly poked Cat for use of weird, possibly Scum-identity pronouns in Cat's first weird post.  This solidly fits Kleril's playstyle with other people around that time.

2)  Cat 'defended' very unconvincingly - this solidly fits Cat's playstyle around that time.

3)  Kleril does not follow up - This too solidly fits Kleril's playstyle of that point.

4)  They basically ignore each other for several real life days (consistent, they're mostly ignoring everyone else too).  Kleril medium pokes me, gets (primarily by others) challenged for weird/incorrect reasoning, for not voting in combination with his accusation, and for not digging about his suspicion.  He follows up eventually with a vote and a super poor explanation of his reasoning, absolutely no digging.  This is my first suspicion of Kleril beyond that of ‘he’s playing this game too thus is suspect’ – In fact, up to this point, I really like how Kleril’s playing and he’s my top Town feel.  Yep, the mistake’s so bad it jolts me out of that feel, and totally changes what I’m going to say to Kleril in my upcoming long ‘talk to everyone’ post.  Now I DO have something scummy to discuss.  Meanwhile Cat keeps doing what Cat does and looking steadily Scummier to me.

5)  I post 'baby behemoth', where Cat gets challenged hard by me, Kleril gets medium hard challenged, I try to pep-talk the silent newbies, and I generally talk to everyone in a way that I believe is pretty informative about my of-then opinions about and desire to interact more with each.  Cat goes panic-level defensive and stays that way for one nice big post and another smaller response to Squill who challenged Cat about being so panic-level defensive.  These responses are not out of line with previous play.  Kleril goes belly up, going in one post from 'You are my vote' to 'You have got to be Town, and you're scary convincingly persuasively Town' with this awesome cosy feel and an absolute lack of any scumhunting - unless he's hunting me in a totally different way, through what sounds like practically worshipful praise and an already asked and answered question - 'This is your first game of mafia?'.  It's a bit hard for me to judge if this is Kleril or if this is Kleril speaking with someone else's suggestions, but wow it sure is different from earlier in play.

6)  I respond to Kleril with cuddles+probes and offer Cat a 'Don't panic' embroidered towel.  Cat comes back with the best play shown yet, though it includes a whole host of problems, including a nice set up IF they are the Scum team, and IF they think I'm fixed on Cat and buying Kleril's malarkey.  Suddenly Cat, who has barely mentioned anyone else in play does have things to say about others, and says them.  Including Kleril, in this weird category by himself, "kleril doesn't seem scum"... "He hasn't had enough activity of the late for me to tell..."  Wait, so why say he doesn't seem scum, if he hasn't had enough activity to tell?  Superblackcat's FOS/Town/Kleril post hits Griffinpup and Deathsword as being suspicious for not enough activity reasons, but "He hasn't had enough activity of the late for me to tell" Kleril gets to sit alone in the others category with a 'doesn't seem scum' mark?  This practically glows of 'doesn't belong here' to my eyes.

Well, by itself it is nothing but white noise.  It's meaningful at all only because of high suspicion that they're both Scum, and that there's in the moment high pressure upon one/both of the team, if team they are.  Considering that Kleril alone seems Scum (to me at least) and SuperBlackcat alone seems scum (to me at least), and Blackcat was more obviously headed towards the chopping block at that point (had a vote, more directly accused) and Kleril hadn't had even a blue finger actually lifted yet, for Superblackcat to weakly talk about Kleril's Townieness seems to me not a bad seed to plant into a post with a bunch of other white noise intended to hide the real message, that there's nothing at all, not even Cat ignoring Kleril, to point out Kleril as Cat's partner.

So its only purpose serves to help me, and possibly others, feel more secure that yes, there's evidence that through timing and weirdness does at least weakly support that this pair is a plotting Scumteam.  This helped me feel confident enough to warrant the post I wrote about it.  If I found evidence that seemed to contradict or did nothing to support, I'd have talked about that too, and possibly delayed the post until I felt there was more supporting evidence.



People interested in an Imp PoV on what's Scummy and what's reasonable about the first 9 play posts Superblackcat has made in this game, you have cause to open this second spoiler too.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Post 1 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4636720#msg4636720)) Instructions how to play, seems to encourage lynching today cause it has no penalty, but wording and logic is hard to follow for me.  I cannot evaluate this for scumhunting.  (shows no connection to or focus on any other player)

Post 2 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4639054#msg4639054)) Answer a question from Kleril about wording of post 1 that suggests you spoke as not being town with "It's just how I am used to refering to things...".  Question to an {IC} player, "What is the point of asking questions such as: What is your first mafia game?"  Statement that you "see no point and won't ask unless there's need that ties into the game."  No evidence of attempts to scumhunt I can recognize.  (no unusual focus or connection to anyone)

Post 3 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4639867#msg4639867)) Answer a question about the question you asked in Post 2, answer making it clear you feel the questions being asked (by everyone) are not relevant to the game - instead are random and that massive amounts of questions are also wrong to ask.  Answer a question about post 1, who were you talking to:  well you don't answer, you say I was pointing out that there was a free lynch we could do today. (you were talking to everyone).  No evidence of attempts to scumhunt I can recognize.  (shows no connection to or focus on any other player)

Post 4 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4641621#msg4641621))  First decent length one, covers a bunch.  I like this much information, a LOT and a LOT BETTER than a short post - but it makes me work to attempt a brief summary.

Here you FOS Mr.Zero for "just trying to pin suspicion on everyone else" but himself and defend yourself from his challenges to you about your play by asking 'how are your words suspicious, it's how you play' (in his challenge to you (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4640177#msg4640177) he tells you exactly what's suspicious)

You also thank the IC for answering you, suggest that your suspicion (which?  At Mr.Zero?  That's the first and only suspicion you've claimed, and you said it less than 30 words before in the same post) may be wrongly placed because everyone's asking questions completely related to the game (huh?  That contradicts what you said in post 3)

You also answer my questions (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4640997#msg4640997) with another question about color (you already asked everyone the same question, huh.  I dunno what's up with that), provide a list of Mafia experiences which you say "are quite different from forum mafia" which you say you also have played but "it was not structured like this".  Huh... so you know how to play this Mafia or you don't?  It sounds like don't but then you state -clearly- for the first time, you prefer a night start, and the "smart thing to do on d1 with night start and a 7/2 is NL, and that happens everytime".  That sounds like you think you know what you're talking about, and what we should do to win.

Then you ask Luke for his FOS, you ask Mods if we can edit, you restate your FOS on Mr.Zero, and you end by asking everyone for top FOS and top TOWN.

Why ask Luke for his FOS when you ask everyone for that in the same post?  Why ask me about colors when in the same post you ask everyone?  Weirdness.  Weak attempt to scumhunt (PLace FOS, ask Luke/all for top FOS and top Town).   (Clear hostile focus on Mr.Zero [that's not bad, you even explain why - I think your reasoning, reaction, and style of defense are highly suspicious - but the focus itself is NOT BAD nor is letting us see how you think - if you look Town to me, I'm going to feel pretty comfortable writing off your mistakes as I look for stuff that doesn't look Town/truly looks like Scum.  Now, appear to think like a Scum, that person may swing like a Scum.]. Otherwise, no connection or focus on anyone - the partial focus on Luke and Imp to specifically question seems countered by asking the exact same question to everyone within 30 words of each specific question.  If that's a focus on Imp/Luke.... noted but ?).

Post 5 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4641655#msg4641655)  Directed to me alone.  You tell me you realize you didn't answer my question, that you like the discussion now just fine because its focus is scum hunting.  You clarify that you think not one No lynch, but two is best, purpose to extend time.  You then say the set ups are "foreign to you", you 'explain' why with speculative discussion about assumptions of if we have various roles, but then go on to state your beliefs about how the cop (if we have one) should play.  Then you ask me to tell you what I think should be done - you want "strategies of someone who have played these setups before" - I've already said (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4635195#msg4635195) I am inexperienced, so much so that I had to research what bus meant.  Weak evidence of scumhunting directed towards 1 player - I'll give you credit for asking my question back at me.   (some focus on Imp)

Post 6 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4641758#msg4641758) Very brief answers to questions.  No questions asked.  No evidence of attempts to scumhunt I can recognize.  (shows no connection to or focus on any other player)

Post 7 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4646553#msg4646553)  Huge change in tone, the new tone is hugely defensive (for you as compared to your earlier posts).  This is very likely in response to my first really long post, specifically the portion that challenges you on everything scummy I believe I have seen in your posts 1-6, which is a lot and pretty detailed.  You identify Mr.Zero as attacking you over your answers to questions, you say what answers he is attacking you over (And get that wrong - you miss or completely avoid that he was NOT asking or attacking about your answers in three of his 4 questions.  He asked about your defensiveness/if you were hiding, why you didn't ask even a single question (you had, a very confrontational one to an IC - but it wasn't a confronting Scum sort of question, you were challenging how all of us were playing); why you had made post 1 and why you hadn't answered the question asked about post 1 before he asked (you 'answered' it in post 2, by saying 'that's just how I talk' - a worthless level of answer for this game's purposes, as you probably now understand, you might as well have answered '7' or 'yellow')  Everything else is defensive/deflective, mixed with anecdotes your previous mafia experiences, analysis of our game that claims that there's two choices, random lynch or no lynch (there's 3 - we can also process of elimination lynch, and remove not random - but scummiest - and possibly real Scum - that ain't random, but as of this post probably feels that you are the pick for lynch).

Tiny portion of the huge post directed to Mr.Zero. More challenges (challenges are good, with basis especially... yours has little, but one basis I can follow) "pointing fingers without evidence is NOT part of the mafia game" -he's not doing that in my eyes.  "Where have I attached myself to the findings of others?"  I agree you have not.  I agreed then (wasn't a big deal to me at the time), and I agree now as I peer at your words through the best 'microscope' I can manage.  You've done NOTHING I can see as of post 7 to attach yourself to anyone else's findings , or even to anyone else   This does bear discussion later, I intend to - if I don't get back to it before Monday, I'd like a reminder question.

(except strongly to Mr.Zero as your FOS [totally appropriate play, though your reasons presented seem like garbage because they are purely defensive/attacking him for a reasonable (to me at very least) form of scumhunting, and you show no attempt to expose his Scumminess through any method other than 'you say so and it is clearly evident'],

weakly to Deathsword as an IC voice you respect and trust as an IC voice [totally appropriate and reasonable - means nothing bad or good],

and weakly to me, either in an attempt to Scumhunt [good man, if so!], trust me and consider my directions [watch it... you probably liked how I talked if that's why, but is that -reason-?] or both [Very very good man!  If that one's true, you're really smart cause it's hard to pull off and maybe really effective when you can!  Why haven't you been showing that level of play it all along though?]

As of your Post 7, of course, you're really focused on me - I had just attacked you on every scummy thing I've seen you do - the list is long.  Your new strong focus on me appears completely understandable.  Not especially wise, not especially strategic, and how you respond is mostly Scummy.)  (weak scumhunting, directed only at Mr.Zero  (shows only predictable connections to and focus on other players - nothing surprising or suspicious)

Post 8 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4646881#msg4646881) Answering Squill, who did not ask, but stated a challenge.  Your tone is still purely defensive.  (shows no connection to or focus on any other player)

Post 9 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4648150#msg4648150)  Huge change in tone, the new tone is determined and better focused (for you as compared to your earlier posts - note clarity and focus are not ideal, but for you, this is your best and most 'I am a serious player trying to scumhunt' post yet.  This supports the conclusion that NOW AT LAST you are finally playing to win/survive at least.... but it also supports the conclusion that you are Scum listening closer to some darn good advice - and wow guy you've been Sooooo Scummy so far to me).  First evidence of serious attempt to scumhunt.  Initially directed at all by a restatement of your very first scumhunt attempt - list top FOS and TOWN picks.  Weak, largely unsupported attacks at 3 players.  A top town pick of Squill.  A declaration specifically about Kleril, contradictory towards itself - simultaneous that Kleril doesn't seem like scum, that Kleril hasn't been active enough to tell, and that he agrees with Kleril about me.  Agrees with what about me?  Doesn't seem like Scum but you can't tell cause not active enough?  These comments stick out of your post like they do not belong there.  They 'glow'.  A weak attack on Luke, agreeing with what I said (but you do say 'his answer being lacking' as why).  A revisiting of the specific questions from post 4, directed to their original recipients (Luke and I).  No other active Scumhunting - but wow, a great stride forward.   Did this come from Superblackcat by himself, compared to all his previous play?  Maybe, but that's worth a wonder to me, and maybe to us all.

(Lots of connections and focus here.  Expected connection/focus on Mr.Zero and Imp.  Mostly reasonable focus on Squill (had just been challenged by him, and this was mentioned.  But 'Like his reasoning'?  Squill's reasoned that he has to play cautiously and avoid confusion, says nothing about him thinking he should scum hunt.  He does nothing to scum hunt either.  I already analyzed Squill's behavior as of this point - it's in the behemoth.  It's in the ONLY SPOILER in the behemoth.  Squill promises to ask questions at 'some point' and doesn't for MANY DAYS, almost gets replaced for inactivity at one point even - or should have been - I challenge him (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4641380#msg4641380) for having already been inactive for over 48 hours for bleep's sake - and this is during a weekday period - in fact I can see SO LITTLE DIFFERENCE between Squill's and Luke's play and answers that I give them the exact same 'stand up, newbie' speech (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4642894#msg4642894) (and it's clear how into specifics and details I am by now, right?  Everyone's a unique case to me - but not them, nearly-identical-at-the-time-lurkyloos).  The only reasoning besides chiding Superblackcat that Squill shows us yet is with -evident- reluctance and with great delay, answering half a question at a time, to say that I'm either Town or Scum.  Duh.... we're -all- either Town or Scum).  How in blue blazes is this solid Town play?  Are people confusing -my questioning him- about what he would do as a doctor or a cop with -him trying to drop hints that he is a doctor or a cop-?  Madness.  Utter madness.  Sure, you can think me Scum, and we should all suspect all others of being Scum despite Top Town picks and whatnot - we're all maybe Scum at this point except to ourselves.  But even if you think I am Scum, surely you don't think -I know- who has a town role before the first chance to investigate happens?  Madness I say.  I'd love an explanation of what makes Squill seem 'so Town'.  I'd love a reminder if I need one about this, a spoiler's no place to hide it.  But it's not a primary focus here - it is discussed here because it IS a hint of out of the blue and this is a microscope level focus on this post that connects to him and him as top Town pick. I haven't already really explained what's so Scummy about Squill so it can't just be a link.]

(Odd focus on Deathsword and Griffinpup - possibly genuine, but really, never logging in from before game started is one of the very scummiest things you've seen in the game yet?  Doesn't seem like you worked very hard on that concept either).

(And now we come to your words about Kleril.  Out of the blue Kleril.  You contradict yourself about him, you say you agree with him about me (about what about me you don't say, which you DO say when you talk about agreeing with my words about Luke).)

Here's the only 'gee, is this a link to Kleril?' out of everything:  Because IF you are Scum (wow you look like it to me as of Behemoth) AND he is Scum (and wow, he looks darn scummy to me as of Behemoth too) then you ARE both singly Scum, and possibly ALSO working together in concert - long as you both know there's a Scum chat and are using it that is.  Two hours earlier, Kleril had just changed his posting tone, and in this so have you.  If you are both Scum, and if you both think I'm after you but maybe not so sure about Kleril (As of this post's time I was still measuring Kleril and had perhaps not been detectably doing so yet, so that's seems possible) you've made a nice post to support your buddy in the event of your eventual lynching - Gee, maybe Squill's your buddy.  Or maybe Mr.Zero who you've been yelling at most of the game, that's a good cover too - but who would ever suspect Kleril from your posts - why you don't even avoid talking about him - you make him seem faintly clean but without any strong basis.  A 'look in the corner move' if we cooperated with it. 

Post 9 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4648155#msg4648155)  A retraction post.  One of his top Scum picks, one given only a single reason for being Scum, that reason is corrected as being untrue and true behavior described.  Equally Scummy behavior from Deathsword?  I'd say not at all.  A plea for more activity from Deathsword.  Does raise my concern though - how long did Superblackcat have these 'other' FOS, and for 'these reasons'?  Was Deathsword on this list as a convenient addition just to pad it up to a better number and make it look like a more real list?  (Retraction/correction highly reasonable and responsible.  Lack of comment on how change of sole given reason for suspicion did or did not change FOS less so.)   (Shows no connection to or focus on any unexpected player)

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day
Post by: Persus13 on October 06, 2013, 03:26:23 pm

Thank you for the return of activity, Imp. Now can you answer my questions and discuss things post-Behemoth?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day
Post by: Superblackcat on October 06, 2013, 04:16:17 pm

I'm going to address two things Imp.

First of all, is my "Sudden focus" on kleril... That was his first post in 2 days or so, Why would I NOT focus on him? You guys focused on him, I focused on him, because he was back, and hopefully, active.

Secondly, You are telling me not to focus only on you (And frankly, I haven't) But they you continue to focus, solely, on me and kleril. Might I ask what is this contradiction doing?

Also, the nervous waiting was a pun like sentence based of your sig.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day
Post by: Superblackcat on October 06, 2013, 04:17:13 pm

I don't have time to address anything else. I'm at Chinese School :<

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day
Post by: Superblackcat on October 07, 2013, 01:56:27 am

Has Scum actually gotten help from the Scum IC?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day
Post by: Superblackcat on October 07, 2013, 02:02:00 am

Sorry for multiple posts, I don't spend so much time reading and rereading, so When I got back to something, i remember that I had to address this and that etc.

@Imp
Anyways, I'm pretty sure I addressed most of the evidence you've brought against me before. I feel like you basically just re summarized your earlier posts, Did you actually bring any new evidence? I'm don't think so after reading your post twice. If you did however, and you would like me to address different parts of "me being scummy" Then please highlight it out in the next post, without it being behemoth. As much as I like how you write. It's too much.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day
Post by: Imp on October 07, 2013, 02:15:08 am

New style of posts, guys.  Nearly everything in labeled spoilers.  Still going to be a mess to quote, but going to be much easier to ignore what you don't want to see twice and actually find what you do, I sure hope.  If anyone hates this style worse than what I was doing before, please be sure to let me know.

Spoiler: First a spoiler about my current take on 'others buddying me'... as well as on 'me buddying others': (click to show/hide)

I don't protest players getting chummy with me (yet - I may learn to, but for now I believe I can use it just like I can use any other interaction).  Furthermore, I'm arguably a Team builder if I get the choice and chance, both inside and outside my head.  To me, there's actually three major pieces of information each Town player has:  That you yourself are Town, that two are Scum, thus six others are your allies, only you and they don't know which six.  That sounds like team to me, just have to find the non-team.  I'm super comfortable with the idea of that feel in general - and am aware that there are Mafia games where there are unknown unknowns, unlike this one's known unknowns (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/There_are_known_knowns).  I can't always use it, but here I can and am.

Every player is unique to me (unless your play is so bland and non-committal that you taste like nothing, just like the other bland and non-committal player(s) beside you... if I taste that, I'll probably try to change it somehow) The way I interrogate one person might appear nothing like how I interrogate another.  'Chums' is a style that does not prevent information gathering and is not personally abhorrent to me.

Yes, I attempt to consider what the entire group of players' reactions, especially as a majority, thinks of my playstyle.  I'm well aware that if I seem to have bad goals in mind - which can be as simple as working on logic that fails to make sense to most of you - well my name's the easiest to type of us all this game.

Spoiler: There's concerns about my comfort with Mr.Zero, and some of you wonder about me and questions I don't ask (click to show/hide)

I'll be analyzing all of Mr.Zero's game posts some time soon - it'll be after some sleep.  Brief and non-microscope answer about 'why 'ignore' Mr.Zero, Imp!' to tide everyone over though:

Other than that first post he made that I mentioned I 'hated', I've pretty much believed I understood what he was saying in each post he made and the logic used has generally worked really well for me.

By and large, he has asked mostly questions I would have enjoyed asking and answered things much as I imagine myself answering them - though of course I would have used different (and probably many more) words to ask those same questions.

By my standards (which are partially set by the level of activity of the Town as a whole), he is doing an acceptable job of scumhunting - more than most and with more logic than most.  He's questioned some things I've not immediately seen, which have helped me notice them - after study I've generally at least tentatively agreed.  Not about everything, but what I've not liked, it hasn't looked Scummy.  Y'all want a glimpse of me reacting to something I don't like but which doesn't look like Scum to me, search the thread for me reacting to Rolepgeek.  Do remember this is primarily Pre-Behemoth analysis.  Day currently goes to Thursday at least, unless we want to shorten.  I'll be sleeping before I try to think too much more.

As of yet, Mr.Zero has failed to say anything that strikes me as wrong.  That does not mean I agree with everything he says or think that he has made no logical errors.  But I'm not seeing glowing flaws and bright 'manipulate Town in ways that lead away from a Town win' when I read his words and follow what I can see of his intentions.  That stuff's easy to chase, and some of you are repeatedly throwing stuff that is on that level.  I chase it and there keeps being more of it.  How much 'no, really, I am Scum' should I collect from someone before I say, "Ahh, guys?  Who else is seeing 'this'?"  My answer has been shown in my behavior, but I'm interested in others ideas.

I also evaluate people based on their interactions with others, not just myself towards them.  Even their interaction towards me, or its lack, tells me things.  What does someone do when I don't approach them for a while?

Sure, Mr.Zero is classifiable as 'middle of the line'.  Sure, middle of the line's a great place to hide.  But so's every other part of the line.  You may think my logic and ability to juggle multiple interrogations is effortless and limitless - I don't think so.

Some of the information I've noticed in this game have come not from answers to my questions - but answers to other peoples' questions.  I also learn stuff from how people interact, asking/answering or other interactions.  There's also only so much simultaneous serious interrogation I can conduct and sustain, though I hope to improve that with practice.  How sure do you need to be of someone's Scummy guilt before you say, 'I am sure'?  I do not believe I need to deeply stare into everyone's souls' before I can say my version of 'alright, I speak as Ma'at now, these ones look so bad I am ready to say, lets check these - do the rest of you agree?'

Would I like to look deeply at the guilt and innocence of every one of you?  Kinda.  Rolepgeek has demonstrated great anti-Imp ability so far.  I'm quite hoping that I can go through the rest of the game without attempting to read him deeply.  Seeing him obliquely wouldn't be as unpleasant.  If one of you/many of you were to take it upon yourselves to interrogate him deeply I'd consider it an absolute delight.  But when I said...

Quote from: Imp on October 04, 2013, 03:45:33 am

If I’m right, and we basically stop hunting now – I will leave this game with a very strong feel of three players.  A weak but acceptable to me (for day 1 at least) feel of three others, and no real sense of 2 of you.

...I meant it.  If everyone had essentially gone silent then AND if I am right about the two I considered (new analysis from me gets to wait, re:brain fried until some sleep achievement unlocks - no comment yet on what I think about them post behemoth) so likely to be our Scum, I'd leave the game with solid opinions of the playstyle and mentality (as pertains to this specific Mafia game) of Superblackcat, Kleril, and Luke.  I had and have weak and unsatisfactory reads of three others:  Squill, Mr.Zero, and Rolepgeek.  I have essentially no read of Deathsword or Griffinpup... that one's convenient since it's now Darvi, who I as yet also have no real read on.  I also want to know more about pretty much all of you (currently very not motivated to interact with Rolepgeek... that don't make him Scum or Town though).  Some of the information I've noticed in this game have come not from answers to my questions - but answers to other peoples' questions.  I also learn stuff from how people interact with others beside myself, answering questions or other.  I've asked a lot of questions - I am not going to try and stop that - but I also would like to observe others interacting more.

Spoiler: Oh yeah!  Question for everyone, as your answers may vary - Given all these flaws that I see, why does Squill look very Town to so many? (click to show/hide)

Squill promises to ask questions at 'some point' and doesn't for MANY DAYS.  Near as I can tell, he still hasn't, unless we want to count dropping opportune singles so sparingly.  I'm fine with that, but still.... he said!  And he didn't!

He should have been almost replaced for inactivity at one point - I challenged him for having already been inactive for over 48 hours for bleep's sake - and this is during a weekday period.  Why don't any of you care about that?  And he probably WAS lurking - because once challenged, he sure spoke up fast.  -Thank you for that Squill.  But really, behaving good once you get challenged for behaving bad makes you solid town - is Squill being given a break because of wish fulfillment?

In fact, early on I can see SO LITTLE DIFFERENCE between Squill's and Luke's play and answers that I give them the exact same 'stand up, newbie' speech (and it's clear now how into specifics and details I am, right?  Everyone's a unique case to me - but not them, nearly-identical-at-the-time-lurkyloos).

People are praising Squill's reasoning from back when the only reasoning besides chiding Superblackcat that Squill had shown  was with -evident- reluctance and with great hesitation, answering half a question at a time, to say that I'm either Town or Scum.  This game we're -all- either Town or Scum.

I don't disagree with his assessment, and I even like Squill (OK, I'm fond of most of you, even the ones I prepare to help string up), but how in blue blazes is this solid Town play?

Are people confusing -my questioning him- about what he would do as a doctor or a cop with -him trying to drop hints that he is a doctor or a cop-?

Madness.  Utter madness.  At this point, no matter what role I drew, how could I possibly know his role yet?

I really expect more from Squill.  I like his contributions, I just wish.... more of them, yeah.  Oh!  In that, he does seem to be a typical Townie to me

Now I survey for questions:  I see none for me from Kleril.

Spoiler: Squill doesn't ask me anything, but offers an interesting comment, so I ask him and all a question about it (click to show/hide)

Quote from: Squill on October 04, 2013, 03:06:48 pm

Imp, while two of your points against kleril are valid, I feel like the first one is a bit invalid.

That's part of why I didn't state that I am highly sure that someone (Kleril, over 90% rationally and emotionally both and I greatly believe still, but that needs sleep before I can confirm; Superblackcat, somewhere over 50% rationally and emotionally, still, though I am very pleased to see great improvement in his play and have not yet had a chance to properly 'dig in' and consider all subsequent posts, and I am pretty sure I feel less certain than I had (which is good) but that's a lot of Scummy play over a long posting time and a lot of interaction to believably reclassify as mistake, whoops, all better now, Town all along).

Anyway - Squill and all - What about the points that you feel are valid, as well as the invalid ones?  How much Scum do we need to find in a player, what probability do you need to find or whatever makes you decide 'alright, I agree or not', before you say 'gotcha' or 'throw them back, that's Town'?

I believe I am 100% likely to be wrong in one or more things I believe about the Scumminess of Kleril and Superblackcat.  I am willing to believe I am actually completely wrong (I'll be far easier to convince of that with Superblackcat than Kleril) not about the Scumminess, but about it meaning that either is actually Scum or not (and I don't want to lynch Town) if there's evidence that I missed or misinterpreted which is convincing - and explains away the whole.  Given that I'm probably not right about everything I observe and interpret - do you feel that the case(s) is(are) valid on what you yourself observe and interpret?

Spoiler: Superblackcat: (click to show/hide)

Quote from: Superblackcat on October 04, 2013, 06:50:46 pm

For the Behemoth attack... What?...

Only way I can see to interpret that 'question' is that you disagree/don't understand anything in it that attacks you.  That you're saying every point I make is gibberish with no connection to reality.

I'm going to call that defending yourself by being defensive, suggest that's not very effective, and move on to the next question I can find from ya.

Quote from: Superblackcat on October 04, 2013, 06:50:46 pm

You are saying he[Kleril] is scum because he gets a towntell on you?

Nope.  I'm calling him Scum for the whole kit and kaboodle of his entire game behavior.  I'm saying he's as Scummy as my posts are long, heck, he's as Scummy as this D1 has been long and is likely to get longer.  Towntells by themselves have null value, I suspect most of use get them at some point or will, and other players have suggested I may feel Town to them - the reason I didn't call them on it is that isn't Scummy and that alone certainly isn't Scummy.

Nope, Kleril and I 'danced', he let me get a great feel of him.  Kleril, if you are Town, how DARE you act so much like a Scum.  If you're Town you're job's not to act like a Scum, for that matter if you're Scum your job's not to act like a Scum.

He is scummy, in relation to the 'Towntell' because of how he rolled over.  Because of how he accused me (-that- it was me is a null value to me, but -how- he answered and failed to answer both me and others was terrible and just kept getting worse), his extremely limited quantity of Scum hunting (what he did with me was NOT scumhunting I rather solidly believe - he dropped words and bailed, then turned belly up and lied) and a host of other points.  I discuss his behavior because it says, as a whole, 'this player is not working towards a Town win'.  And it says it incredibly loudly to me.  His 'bad behavior' is, to me, worse than yours.

Quote from: Superblackcat on October 04, 2013, 06:50:46 pm

I don't understand your second post at all, and your links don't work. You are saying he is scum because he gets a towntell on you?

Again, thank you for info about broken links.  Huge thank you.  Are you still confused about the 'second post'?  If you're not asking about that Towntell or if you have more questions about it, please ask.

Quote from: Superblackcat on October 04, 2013, 06:50:46 pm

For your first part. I believe I said squill because whatever someone said made sense. It coincided with what I remembered, and I mentioned him

I'll ask you to keep trying to improve - you're improving, but I want more from you.  That's not a promise that I will successfully reevaluate you as innocent, but I swear to you I am trying even as of this moment and your showing your thinking, and even your growth in thinking, will be helpful to my and others' decision-making processes.  I don't want to mislynch.  I don't want to waste my time.  'Resolving' what I see as your likely Scumminess is pretty darn important to me too, not just you, and I will be happier to realize that I'm wrong about you (much happier) than if you are innocent but unconvincing and get lynched and are Town.  I'll be quite annoyed that you showed so much Scumminess - but I'll also be annoyed that we cannot establish your innocence or not correctly.  Your behavior has given me (maybe us) a nicely challenging puzzle - how the heck can you seem so Scummy but not be Scum?

1)  Explain perfectly and be believed.  (this may be the harder path -this may be the less valuable path for Town)
2)  Someone successfully reveals the Scum that you are not and we as a whole (even if that doesn't include me) agree that they are the better lynch.  (You could be that someone.  I intend to help - I'd love to find someone else I'm more sure is Scum than you.  I have one - Kleril.  Get me another somehow, Kleril can't clear you - he can only possibly clear himself and not by using you.  Try and find a way to trigger the real Scum to mess up or something.  There are currently 7 sets of Town eyes in this game - and that's true no matter if you are Scum, or if I am.  Help Town win.

So:  Does it make sense that Squill could be Scum, but still have said what he did?  I find your rapid grab of him as Top Town for you to be 'convenient', not 'reasoned and genuine'.  If you are just doing stuff because it makes sense at that very second, you're going to look steadily more Scummy to me, because I don't believe that a winning Town strategy.

You may only be able to look at single acts of behavior and make judgments only from that one thing.  This is a terrible weakness and not just in Mafia.  I respectfully suggest it to be a potential fatal flaw in a wide range of areas.  It also doesn't convince me of your own innocence if you have this flaw, because it supports both your play both as Town and as Scum.  That alone means nothing - but I believe you've done a ton of anti-Town stuff, and I've listed it as clearly as I have in more than one place.  You want a link, you just ask.  You want to discuss specific points, you just do so.  But I recommend finding the real Scum, if that's not you, as the easier and more useful path. 

Quote from: Superblackcat on October 04, 2013, 06:50:46 pm

Secondly, My opinion of you, is that I do not know if you are scum or town, Right now, because of this post, you seem scum to me. But I feel like that is a biased view, as you just accused me. I said that what you said had a lot of sway in this game. That's the part I agree with, Not anything about you being scum/town. I have not decided, so you were not under anything. I thought long and hard where to put you, and I couldn't decide. You didn't make either list.

Alright.  Consider my suspicion of why I didn't make your list successfully explained away.

But I have a new question in its place.  I agree with your assessment of your behavior.  A lot.  You are making a ton of sense to me in what you're saying, and why.  You are showing a lot of understanding in what you are saying - which is GREAT.  Except.... We've been playing for a couple weeks now.  And I just got through inspecting your first 9 posts, really really closely.  Anyone else following along, especially Townies in this game - that post is HERE (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4665145#msg4665145) in the second spoiler, right below the green text.  Compare along with me if you have any doubts - use it as a way to investigate me instead of him if you wish - but then compare his posting style, comprehension levels, self awareness levels, personality.... can go into vocabulary, complexity of thought... the list is long...

Superblackcat (or Mr. Mentor), how do you explain the incredible difference, the expansion and growth, that suddenly appears in your play, then rapidly strengthens and grows.  Have you experienced some sort of epiphany (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/epiphany), and if so, can you convince us that is more likely, than that you have a skilled, though malicious towards Town, advisor?

Quote from: Superblackcat on October 04, 2013, 06:50:46 pm

You seem to understand Imp very well... Might you be getting clarifications, or just frankly status updates with eachother... in a certain thing called Scum chat?

You two seems to be working together. It wasn't very apparent in the previous posts, but because of that post, I've noticed you guys have basically agreed on everything.

That's towards Mr.Zero more than me, but I'm included enough and want to answer in part.  In case you missed it, top of this post I discuss my attitude about me and buddying.  Just below that, I discuss (without in depth analysis) my lack of disagreement with Mr.Zero so far, and I promise an upcoming in depth analysis to follow later.

I'd prefer you to remember and so repeat, especially if I am proved to be Town at some point, that my innocence does not and can not prove anyone else's innocence - especially not those who were suspected as my Scumbuddies before my alignment was shown to all.

Quote from: Superblackcat on October 04, 2013, 06:50:46 pm

Why do you guys even bother to hold things close to the chest, as you guys call it. As you guys can die at any night, Give away any and all information you notice, don't hold your 2nd fos close to the chest. No point in doing so. If you die with important information... Well, We missed it. However, if you die with the information spewing out of your mouth. Guess what, Someone may have killed you for that.

I greatly agree.  Gosh, I wonder so very very much, when I tried so hard to draw you out before, why did you respond so differently?  You don't sound scummy in this at all.  Why did you before?  If you think like this then you always did, right?  Why did you act so confusingly before?  How did you conflict your ideas/speak so unclearly before and improve so very much now?  That's something I've been talking about being a concern since my mini Behemoth, and you never really answered those charges.  You seem... so different maybe you can answer it now?  I am not asking about now - I understand and see how much more like Town you are behaving now.  But why were you acting so differently then?

Quote from: Imp on September 28, 2013, 05:02:19 am

To sum up the scuzziness that I see from you:  You tend to answer only fragments of the questions that others ask you, and typically these answers do not really answer the questions.  You are taking very few actions which appear to be scum hunting or otherwise pro town. 

Superblackcat, if you are Town I really hope you show it, loud, clear, strong, and soon.

Woo!  You are showing Townness now, lots of it!  So very much so very fast, I now I wonder, and ask Town to wonder, if it is reasonable to believe that you could have improved this much this fast of your own ability and determination; or if this is actually further...  strong suggestion... that you are taking advantage of some resources accessible to Scum - namely a Mr. Mentor well able to help you if you let him.

Humans very rarely show as much growth and change as you have in this time period, even given motivation.  Generally they behave more like Luke did - he really didn't change no matter what I said.  And if I were your English teacher, I'd wonder who was your writing coach now.

Quote from: Superblackcat on October 04, 2013, 09:37:21 pm

ehhh... Rolepgeek... Has flown under my radar the whole time. Therefore, Rolepgeek, would you please list who you think is scummy? (2 min) and who you think is most town like (2 min).

I really appreciate other people questioning Rolepgeek.  It cannot possibly convince me Scummy ain't cause of Scum (other things can) but it saves me one or more headaches and some probably extremely unpleasant posts and makes me feel -very- favorably inclined towards the people who do it.  Reasons are he tastes HORRIBLE to me, and if we all can find the Scum without me having to directly interact with his ideas and words more than the minimum needed, I'll be smiling more than otherwise, and the Scum will still be found.

Does NOT mean I'm telling him not to question me.  Does mean I'm claiming I'd rather not question him directly myself because of Yuck.  Yuck!

Spoiler: Darvi Dearest: (click to show/hide)

Quote from: Darvi on October 04, 2013, 09:07:26 pm

Sweet mother of everything that's holy. Imp, do something about your posts, nobody reads walls of text. (And if somebody claims otherwise, then let me just emphasise that in the grand scheme of things, they are nobodies. Take that, existentialism!)

I can't help it, this is one of the ways I suck.  I'm sure one game or another I'll have it beaten out of me.  I doubt I'll get too much better in a couple weeks or less though even if every one of you gets a stick and sets to - unlike our esteemed Superblackcat, I fear I'm just not in the top 1 percentile of how fast a human can improve, even with all the help you and everyone else playing are surely eager to offer.

I do hope this new spoiler system I'm trying is useful.  This way people can 'shut out' what they're not looking for and see what they want to see more easily, perhaps.  That is my intention at least.

I'm getting 'heat' for not challenging enough people in play.  I may or may not change because of that.... but if I do - it's not going to make my posts significantly shorter.

Quote from: Darvi on October 04, 2013, 09:07:26 pm

At best, the length of your rants hides your lack of questioning over the last few days.

Gosh.  And I even gave two type of reasons:

Quote from: Imp on October 02, 2013, 12:25:15 pm

PFP, or at least under vast time pressure.  Expect me to be mostly silent, though not absent, until Thursday evening.

Quote from: Imp on October 04, 2013, 03:45:33 am

Sadly, that makes me view the rest of you as essentially confirmed Town.  Even the worst of you, I really think you’re Town worst.  I can go through the motions, and I’m interested still and all – but until I see that I’m wrong about one or both of these being Scum… I’m so convinced that I don’t have much drive to hunt y’all anymore.

I’m so convinced I don’t even really feel driven to question –them- anymore.  I tried to get them to prove their innocence, but they just keep looking Scummier.

Quote from: Imp on October 04, 2013, 08:48:13 pm

Posting from work, so super brief (for me) and incompletely answering for now - My most likely time to be able to reply properly is Sunday, though if at all possible I'll do so sooner.

Who cares about the last few days?  I said why, time pressure and gosh, I think I found two Scum, what do the rest of you think? (what reaction do you two Scum-looking players have?)

How many scum in a known unknown game am I supposed to look for?  How many questions am I supposed to ask, especially when for various reasons I feel like I've asked more than any and done great good with my questions?  Sure, you're motivating.  You and everyone are helping me get my motivation back (having more time doesn't hurt either).  I'm SUPER DUPER interested in watching you all interact, by any chance with these many thousands of words, have I maybe said enough that it makes sense for me to listen some?  I'm trying too, I think it makes sense!

Quote from: Darvi on October 04, 2013, 09:07:26 pm

You've done a bunch of reasoning, nice. But are you certain that's all there is? This is day 1, and nothing is for sure.

Sniffle.  I thought I did a lot more than reason.  Doesn't the time ever come when the questions (from me) pause, the case is presented, and I who have questioned so much listens, listens, listens, and responds?  Besides, I claim serious, massive, current school pressure; all that AND unforeseen work pressure too.  You're doing good Imp, I says to me, yes you are.  Thanks Imp, I reply.

Quote from: Darvi on October 04, 2013, 09:07:26 pm

If you want people to be more active, then do what you preach and do something.

Any other two people (I bet Rolepgeek is willing to be one of these, with the addendum that it's not that I'm not doing anything, it's that I'm not doing anything useful, that's his beef with me) want to agree with Darvi here?  Come on, surely you want to.  Call me lazy.  Call me inactive.  Tell me I'm not doing something, and furthermore that I've been inactive when I haven't said I needed to be or failed to return as promised after a 'reasonable' time gone.

Just nobody tell me I make posts that are too long.  We're trying to only speak truths here, right?

Thanks for the tickle, Darvi.  I am feeling more motivated.  Can't confirm that you're a major reason why, yet. but you're part of it and I'm grateful.

Quote from: Darvi on October 04, 2013, 09:07:26 pm

Also, you shouldn't judge people by whatever link you see between them. Save that for if one of them flips scum.

I can see a good-number of reasons already why that might be a neat detail to reveal later, thanks.  I find this highly useful advice, though yes, I know it's player not {IC} voice.

Quote from: Darvi on October 04, 2013, 09:07:26 pm

Quote from: kleril on October 04, 2013, 01:40:28 am

what's our next collective step? Or should we discuss this after mafia get in their NK?

Our collective step, as always, is to scumhunt. Simply because Luke is a dead ringer for the D1 lynch doesn't mean we're gonna stop and wait for the next day. So if you're certain he's scum, look for his scumbuddy. If not, then try to convince the group who else should be lynched. Maybe this results in somebody else than Luke being lynched. Which is a good thing, as complacency is one of the reasons town loses.

This goes for everybody, by the way.

And then what?  You find the two who you think are really likely Scum, no you're not sure sure sure sure sure about both but wow, your newbie Scum senses are all atingle and you've done the best you think you can to show your evidence - and you present to everyone and people talk and stuff - so obviously you keep watching and talking but what -else- do you do?

What's that next step besides stay involved and let people think when not answering them and watching everything and questioning yourself to make sure you still think you have solved the puzzle?

Quote from: Darvi on October 04, 2013, 09:07:26 pm

{The other player can start actually playing like town. That is a good thing. It means they are scumhunting and stuff, and that leads to town winning. At that point, you can remove your vote, maybe keeping your finger of suspicion on them just as a warning.}

Though, this is BM, where the Scum can 'suffer' though some pretty awesome training in the 'safety of the Scumchat' with their very own and sometimes very awesome Scum IC, and might then come back to play with a whole bunch of flaws suddenly gone, though yep they are still Scum cause that's not what changed.

But this is alright, right?  Because unless the 'bait and switch' of thought process and writing content happens pretty darn subtly, why then 'a sudden vast improvement that seems unlikely considering the prior days' postings... good answers replacing 'recent, highly different and denser play' in a BM is a likely Scum tell and is a good reason to stay suspicious of a 'wow, what changed in your thinking, you are now GREAT!' kinda way?

Quote from: Mr.Zero on October 04, 2013, 07:24:56 am

Quote from: Darvi on October 03, 2013, 05:30:42 pm

Zero: What makes you think SBC is more suspicious than Luke?

Well Luke is playing stupid, while SBC is acting scummy. I can actually see Luke in me, at least my first mafia game waaay back. I see no reason to vote for stupidity over scumminess, also so far SBC hasn't even tried to show that he is town trying to help town.

Rolepgeek: Looks like town to me. He acts a bit passively but it doesn't match the shit SBC,Luke and Kleril's (Because of the points Imp has shown) have pulled off.

Luke: Recent acts show that he is more town than scum, though his actions can aid the scum.

Quote from: Darvi on October 04, 2013, 09:07:26 pm

Please explain why you think that makes her scummy and not just a newbie flailing around trying to get a grip? (That sounded meaner than I intended to, but my inability to give a damn prevents me from changing it) Also, you say Luke is playing stupid, yet you implicitly call him scummy right afterwards. Explain this inconsistency. [Giving examples is always good, as is asking them. Even if you have a good idea of how somebody behaves, having somebody else give their opinion is a nice way of confirming your reads or putting them into question. Also, unless you heavily disagree, you shouldn't give your own opinion first. Because, if the reply is similar, how can you tell it hasn't been influenced by what you said earlier?]

Quote from: Mr.Zero on October 05, 2013, 01:20:12 pm

@Darvi, ffs. That's hypocracy, you mention behemoths and you create one yourself. I tried to fork that thing over into neat quotes but it's too much of a hassle as i have trouble spotting what is directed at me and isn't. I will gladly answer every question you have if you show a clear indication that the question is directed at me. Also cut that style, it's more of a pain to read than Imp's.

I confused.  Darvi says something that makes my brain go Oh!  Interesting.  Darvi also says something that makes me go 'what.' 

And then Mr.Zero's response makes me go 'what.'

I'm putting this in Darvi's spoiler area too because some of my related unaskable/not yet askable questions maybe should go to him, and there's no 'what.' or 'applause' or even 'lightbulb' smiley so this puzzle will have to sub for both.

Darvi, if I'm getting what you're teaching here, I would like more lessons like this.

Mr.Zero, I hope this new method of heavy spoiler useage makes it easier to read and thus answer.  I'm willing to help make sure questions to you (or anyone) are findable.  It's probably good for us all to find our own, but I'm getting soooo comfortable with this quoting stuff and all.  And I'm really interested in your answer.

Quote from: Darvi on October 04, 2013, 09:07:26 pm

Imp is getting too comfortable with their picks. That sounds like scum pre-emptively deciding on the lynches because fuck scumhunting, you know you can trust them. Right?

Really?  Wake me up beginning, wake me up end.  Yep, still awake, thanks for checking. 

Quote from: Darvi on October 01, 2013, 06:08:07 pm

Imp, are you scared of my biting snarkasm or do you just think you're no match for my wit and charm?

Sir!  Yes Sir!  All three Sir!

Meh.  I work darn hard for my finds and then I give them to everyone and I listen and I think and I debate and and I want to win so bad.  I'm probably wrong on some things, I'll call it a miracle if I'm right on even 80%.  But I found a TON of evidence  Even if it's all junk it sure looks convincing to me and I worked my neurons off for a lot of it.  While working a 40 hour workweek and taking organic chemistry AND during a week that included first exam as well as some surprise extra super time consuming stuff at work.  And I'm trying to play in a way that's not harmful to the game or any of the players in it, or likely to give anyone that bad burned feeling of 'wow, that game sucks' even if they probably have trouble not feeling that way because of triggers and really wanting to win and feeling blocked.

Just keep teaching best you can, and me too please, between whatever tickles you feel are necessary?  That's all I'll ask for.  Oh, I may have more and better questions for you soon too.  Just not tonight, I'm tired and already tried to do a lot for my Town today.

Spoiler: Question from Darvi to Mr.Zero, because I wonder what your answer is and I'm willing to help (click to show/hide)

Quote from: Darvi on October 04, 2013, 09:07:26 pm

Please explain why you think that makes her scummy and not just a newbie flailing around trying to get a grip? (That sounded meaner than I intended to, but my inability to give a damn prevents me from changing it) Also, you say Luke is playing stupid, yet you implicitly call him scummy right afterwards. Explain this inconsistency. [Giving examples is always good, as is asking them. Even if you have a good idea of how somebody behaves, having somebody else give their opinion is a nice way of confirming your reads or putting them into question. Also, unless you heavily disagree, you shouldn't give your own opinion first. Because, if the reply is similar, how can you tell it hasn't been influenced by what you said earlier?]

Quote from: Mr.Zero on October 05, 2013, 01:20:12 pm

@Darvi, ffs. That's hypocracy, you mention behemoths and you create one yourself. I tried to fork that thing over into neat quotes but it's too much of a hassle as i have trouble spotting what is directed at me and isn't. I will gladly answer every question you have if you show a clear indication that the question is directed at me. Also cut that style, it's more of a pain to read than Imp's.

This confuses me.  I'm willing to help make sure questions to you (or anyone) are findable.  It's probably good for us all to find our own, but I'm getting soooo comfortable with this quoting stuff and all.  And I'm really interested in your answer

Mr.Zero, I hope this new method of heavy spoiler useage makes it easier to read and thus answer.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day
Post by: Imp on October 07, 2013, 02:16:03 am

'Spoiled' by this one long reply, continued...

Spoiler: Persus13 has been waiting for this.  I typed it last and parts of it (ooh invited to 'discuss'...) are nearly stream of consciousness for I am a very tired imp now (click to show/hide)

Quote from: Persus13 on October 06, 2013, 03:26:23 pm

Thank you for the return of activity, Imp. Now can you answer my questions and discuss things post-Behemoth?

Quote from: Persus13 on October 05, 2013, 11:28:07 am

Imp: Now that Kleril seems to be attacking SBC do you think that they're trying to bus SBC or you were just incorrect about the two being scumbuddies?

Still deciding.  I still think I see suggestive clues that supports the theory that they are a team with privileged information.  I have already posted of that, and you ask me about after Behemoth, which I'm still chewing on.  Together, all this info since is way more than I gave in Behemoth, working on it hard and with very limited inputs back as yet from Kleril, which would be helpful.

No piece of evidence is, to my eyes, a smoking gun.  This thing is a whole.  Gestalt and all, it's both each piece separately and a whole together and in order to be true, it all has to work together to be a whole.

I can see reason to support my being incorrect about either of them, and also, though I believe far less likely, that I am wrong about both.

For Superblackcat, I believe it would require these errors to be attributable to a mixture of:

innocent mistakes

extreme inexperience

deep conviction that he is probably already right no matter what multiple others say and any actual double checking he does himself

an unwillingness to read the opening post until extremely recently

an unwillingness or inability to count the number of players in play with himself for any reason at any point until VERY recently (or just have a basic confusion between 7 and 9)

AND an ability to suddenly (though not necessarily spontaneously) improve greatly with unbelievable speed.

Or I'm just more sure than should be.  I'm willing to accept that I'm fooling myself, but I'd like help seeing it.  He really didn't do anything 'damning and inexplicable' in my eyes, he just has looked more and more like Scum to me with most every post, be it from 'urging plans that seemed likely to fail' to 'enthusiastic failure to hunt' to 'failure to indicate a strategy I could understand might be highly successful in combining his no-lynch platform with, you know, winning'.  Best I could see what 'it'll just happen, do it and you'll see, we've done all we need to do today once we've voted no-lynch'.  Cause, that's what it appeared to me to be what he was doing, despite many different flavors of 'and how?'.

But assuming we decide that his 'I can't tell how many players I'm playing beside' defense is adequate and believable... that he actually cannot tell '7' from '9', yet does have all the other mental faculties that his performance to date suggests... and his sudden vast improvement in play makes sense too...  He's going to be fine.  It's not like he lied or anything - unless he lied about the numbers and perception.  Can't tell you're playing beside 8 other people, not 6 other people for a full two weeks?  No glance down the vote count, nothing?  Nothing?  I'm going to be a hard one to sell that too, but if the rest of you buy it there's nothing I can do - and hey, if I'm wrong, help me.  I want to count to 9 too, if I'm only counting to 7 and thinking wrong thoughts and don't realize I am.

For Kleril, much the same errors of thought and judgment, but he did something far more guilty-seeming in my eyes -

I think I caught him lying.  Not like Superblackcat's 'I want you to believe that I can't tell 7 from 9, really, but I realize my mistake and everything was always a misunderstanding, see I behave good now', nope, he changes how he talks - but just to me; in the same threads he talks to others quite differently.  He attempts to talk to me similarly to how I talk; he speaks words of praise, he tells me and all with VERY strong words that I have gone, instantly, for him from vote to Top Town (never mind that he failed utterly to explain his reasons for that vote in a fashion I find believable... that's actually a smaller issue even though that appears to be a way to change the subject from his previous Scummy behavior), he speaks 'honeyed words of poison', backhanded compliments that seem calculated to express for my viewpoint 'Imp is great' and also quiet and soft, as if hoping to slip them past me under the message of 'Imp is great' he also says 'But Imp is terrible, fear Imp, fear what Imp can be'.

Now that's great.  That's GREAT!  That could be a trap.  That SHOULD be a trap.  I'm fine with traps!  I expect them!  I welcome them from skilled and unskilled alike - this is a game where traps are good!  So I dance with him.  I try to mirror his mirroring me - I remind 'sure, trap me, but don't get trapped - you haven't exactly done the right things...

He chooses to keep dancing, and now he tries to explain away his odd behavior earlier with a variant of 'I messed up cause I'm like you, I made the same mistake you did'.  Only I check it, and it tastes false.  It tastes of lies, and I tell him this, in the language we are both speaking, even if both of us don't know what these words mean - you are caught, what are you going to do -

And he says, I keep dancing, but I'm going to get a little stern, because I don't like how you are dancing.  So I say back, Really?  And I close the trap.  Because why would a Townie lie?  Trap me - really?  Lying to trap me?  You're smart enough to step up and dance, and that's your strategy?

And he STILL had an out.  He could have shown his trap.  Even a bad one.  But he didn't, he claimed I blew traps that were never meant for me (Huh?  You lie to -me-, talking to -me- so very clearly, with the purpose of trapping another person?  'what is this I don't even.' and 'what how can work that?' in this sort of game, especially when your claimed prey is SBC - by this I mean making loads of mistakes and acting really scummy?

Quote from: kleril on October 04, 2013, 11:17:11 am

Seeing as how everyone's kept their second top FOS played close to their chests, I thought it'd be a smart play to follow suit. Had things played out differently, I would have come out here and said that SBC was who we all should be voting next round. Way to go, Imp. You dragged it out of me. It didn't need to happen, and now the scum's play is going to change accordingly, now that it's in writing.

@Imp's behemoth attacking me (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4659525#msg4659525):
Re: 1) Nothing I would have said about cat hadn't already been brought up by other players. It's not helping town any if my contributions are entirely redundant forms of entire redundancy.

And also he says, 'But we were dancing!  I like you!  How can you attack me!  If I was going to try and lie to you, I'd have done it from the beginning, not a couple days after start of play!'  wut.

Quote from: kleril on October 04, 2013, 11:17:11 am

2) This is faith I have placed in you, based on how you've been playing. I have no fact to back it up, but this is what I believe. If I had facts (i.e. if I was scum), things would be different, and this convincing would have been from post one, and not 5 or so pages in. Use your head.

And also he says, 'No, really.  I don't understand.  You didn't catch nothing and what you say about how I don't see like you even though I say I did, you're just saying nothing.'  What he apparently ALSO doesn't understand is that there's NO WAY for those posts to mislead him.  When  Deathsword posts, how the HECK does ANYONE misunderstand and think that somehow Deathsword's account is placing a vote against Deathsword from some player whose name is red in Deathsword's post?

Quote from: kleril on October 04, 2013, 11:17:11 am

3) It's day one, and where votes have been placed has been established as more of a scumhunting tool than anything. Using the votecount alone, and not the posts to justify them, is useless.

This is just blind panic defense.  And he -told- me by being able to talk pretty good like me that he wasn't totally stupid.  It's next to impossible for me to believe he's just some human Amazon Parrot or something who genuinely doesn't understand the words, or know what it means when you use them.  Luke - ok, could have been 12.  But 12 year olds rarely can use words to dance with any level of skill.  What I see is stupid lies.  And no reason for Townie to use them.  Not even to showboat.

I even THEN try to give him an out.  I direct him to scum hunting (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4660250#msg4660250), something he should have been doing all along, duh, but distinctly wasn't working very hard on before he called our dance - and didn't really get very far because his claims were so outlandish that really, there's no dance.  I also specifically warn, yawn, don't hunt only Superblackcat.  Cause, he's rather firmly being looked at right now.  Look at Cat too - sure.  But it's not going to convince -me- that you're hunting to chase after the obvious target.  I'm perfectly happy -already- to say yes, the one of you who is not you is guilty.  But to get me to agree that YOU are innocent, you need to either convince me you made multiple and ongoing completely Townie choices that just happen to all be so terribly terrible, but yeah, you ARE Town (Blink blink Waste of space? blink blink Don't lynch Town if avoidable blink blink Who to lynch instead?)

After all, I say BOTH are guilty, and I believe I've found and presented a ton of evidence on both of them.  Some of it may be wrong, but is most of it?  Keep in mind, if you want to judge them on my observations and interpretations being 100% correct - Ok, I'm not perfect, but am I wrong about so much that they don't look like Scum, really?  So the easiest way out is to find someone Scummier.

You specifically ask what I think about Kleril seeming to attack SBC.  I think it's dumb.  Even if he gets even better proof against SBC, how's that supposed to get Kleril's neck out of the noose?  I think this situation is such so that IF they are both Scum, bussing cannot save them, but I'm really not convinced that either of them plays well enough (except is there Mentor smiling on?) to understand 'bus or not bus in this case'.  I think mentor would say no to bus... but who knows how well they listen.

So my biggest (but not only) question about SBC.... how'd he get better so fast?  Can that be explained without Mr Mentor?  Could he have someone else helping him?  We're not supposed to talk to each other, but the rules don't forbid us from trying to ask someone not in play....  Seems good to me.  How to prove it's outside help, or really him and not Mr Mentor?  Well.... that's hard.  I'll let others maybe solve that one.  Besides, he make me work so hard!  If he can play good, why'd he make me work so hard first while playing so badly?  I am so not convinced.

And my biggest question about Kleril is 'why lie'.  That whole lynch all liars thing.  If he's brave enough to risk looking like Scum to set a trap - go for it.  Doo eet.  Make it clear what you're doing when you succeed - or fail.  Then it's not a lie, it's an 'oh really.  Really?  Really?'  And maybe alright.  What in blue blazes makes anyone think I want to lynch them, if they are actually Town?  How the heck am I scary.  I'm just Scum hunting as best I can think how.

Spoiler: One thing Persus said bugs me.  And one thing no one's said yet bugs me too - a spoiler meant for all. (click to show/hide)

Bye Luke, who ate so much of my time.... Hi Persus13!  I've been very very very eager to be in a Mafia game with you.  Have been from before play started, and haven't been quiet about it at all off the thread either.  But the switch to you threw Luke's role to me from 'known to be impenetrable' into no read on you.  Which leads me to present my one beef that I know I have with you so far.

Quote from: Persus13 on October 05, 2013, 06:45:32 pm

I viewed Luke as town even before I got my role PM.

I strongly feel the information gained from Luke was that no information could be gained from Luke.  Does any other player here think Luke -was- Town, and would have behaved differently if only he were Scum?  Is anyone here comfortable with Persus's assertion that he felt Luke was Town?  Other than 'I imagine it', does anyone see grounds for the claim?

I see it as emotional manipulation of us as a whole.  It glows to me.  It's fine for Persus to think it and receive verification or not - but to walk in from outside, to speak in a primarily strong Town voice (So glad you are except for this!) and then to drop that in amongst the good solid Town stuff (sounds good and solid to me, 'cept for that), well I could spit.  That kind of manipulation often flies under the radar, it attempts to set up and support a bias towards it being true without needing proof, and that, especially if not noticed, is often super effective.  To me that's the only scummy thing Persus13 has said so far, but it by itself is pretty serious to me as it is subtle and to my understanding of human psychology, very powerful.  (not as serious as Superblackcat's Scumminess, especially not as serious as Kleril's, but wow, up there).  Also I add that if Persus had not mentioned that detail, he'd look really, really, really Town to me.  Persus, my only request of you at this point is to please help me understand how you could possibly say that in this situation, considering how intelligent and perceptive you have given me proof that you are (even in only considering this thread and your behavior so far).

While I'm on the 'what's up with Persus' kick, I'm going to bring up another related point that no one has mentioned (yet).  This one's not about Persus, it's about me.  I sure hope several of you were already thinking about this, because it seems blindingly obvious to me.  If I wasn't me, I'd be talking about it.  If Imp is Scum, then Imp wants and needs most Townies dead.  As Scum, I may or may not care which order Town dies in, but it's downright weird for me to fight against a lynch of any Townie - however I'm going to have reason to attempt to protect my scumbuddy unless it's in my better interest to throw him or her away.

I was the multiple-methoded poster who tried nearly every trick in the book to get Luke involved... Including swearing that I would use every skill I had to make Luke the first one chosen for lynching if Luke wouldn't get active.  And Luke didn't.  I started that lynch, both as a person talking about lynching, then as the first voter.  It grew to 5 votes upon Luke, with no response from Luke before I stepped in, and as part of my attack upon both Cat and Kleril as the two top Scum I then used hundreds of words in an attempt to be highly convincing as to why to 'not lynch Luke'.

I claim my reason as 'Luke's third Scummiest, and shouldn't die first, we have better targets', exactly what I said in that post.  That's a great Town reason, and one, if I am Scum but Luke is not, I could really easily have saved for some other time. The way I threatened Luke I made it clear I supported the lynch even if he was Town, as Scum I probably would have gotten away pretty much clean should Luke prove Town because of Luke's behavior.  If I am Scum, my reason to care about Luke is probably pretty direct - I meant to save my Partner if I could.  This is a newbie game, and it would probably fly.  In fact, if I failed to save Luke, I'd still be in a pretty safe spot, no worse than before.  But if I did save Luke, then Luke would have a pretty good chance to go on without me if no one realized 'Wait, remember what Imp did?'

Quote from: kleril on October 04, 2013, 11:17:11 am

Also what in the hell is scum chat?

... I also made sure to answer that question, and in significant detail.  That is because I answer stuff that I believe I know the answer to, especially if it can effect play - I will answer and answer FAST because I love a good game.   If I am Scum with a blind partner, that's a great way to try and get the buddy's attention.

Which is why I mention it.  First, when it comes up, it's going to be hella distracting.  I say it now, rather then keep quiet and wait for 'whenever'.  Second -   When I die, remember my alignment can be used as evidence of likely guilt, but NOT of likely innocence.  DO NOT FORGET THAT.  If I am not Scum, that does not clear any likely Scumbuddy of mine.  In fact - that's a great ploy, a tasty ploy.  I think I could use that against newbies pretty darn easily, if I was Scum, and there was an Imp and I was Imp's likely scumbuddy.  If Imp dies before me through lynch or night kill - and if Imp is Town, then there goes the case against me, cause Town doesn't have a Scum buddy, so Imp doesn't have a Scumbuddy, so I'm not Scum, right? - NO.  In fact, I suggest that if you see I am proved to be Town, my living previous likely Scum buddy(ies) are solidly worth some extra observation, may you PLEASE not fall for that fallacy so I do not gnash my teeth excessively in deadchat.

Spoiler: Seems the right thing to do to needle Rolepgeek back a little, maybe? (click to show/hide)

Quote from: Rolepgeek on September 30, 2013, 10:24:11 pm

Imp, you still keep taking stuff out of context.

Sigh.  Decided a little more stuff to take out of context, alas.

You keep telling us stuff like this -

Quote from: Rolepgeek on October 02, 2013, 09:54:22 pm

Alright. I dislike having to do this again, but I can't do anything today, really, because I've been dealing with a lot of drama. Tomorrow I hope to be able to do a nice large post with the various things I want to say on it.

Quote from: Rolepgeek on October 01, 2013, 09:59:33 pm

And internet will shut off soon, so I need to cut this post short, though there may be a follow up.

Quote from: Rolepgeek on September 30, 2013, 10:24:11 pm

Alright, well, as a stopgap measure I'm gonna try to answer questions at the least on my IPad.

Quote from: Rolepgeek on September 30, 2013, 09:59:55 pm

Gah. Sorry. I have like two minutes to do this. I got a girlfriend. >.> I really wish I could respond, but when I say two minutes, I mean my internet will shut down in two minutes, and I'd rather not give hasty answers, and I'd rather not not post. I'll vote for an extend, too.

Now, this is your weekend too.  You've essentially told us you have drama issues, time issues, distraction in the form of new girlfriend issues - heck, you probably have other issues you're not bothering to mention, I know I do.  Relaxing and doing what you please is a big part of handling stress.

I figured, as I'm answering everyone else, lets make sure I didn't miss anything from you, so I checked your recent posts  (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?action=profile;area=showposts;u=88163) to be sure.

Dang!  32 posts elsewhere since you last posted here.  One of them impressive things has over 1000 words in it (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130929.msg4666197#msg4666197).  Are you surely sure you mean what you say when you say stuff like "Tomorrow I hope to be able to do a nice large post with the various things I want to say on it."

Spoiler: Deathsword, last but probably not least... (click to show/hide)

Quote from: Deathsword on October 02, 2013, 09:57:20 am

Imp: What are you suspicions, besides rolepgeek (who, if I got it right, you are voting)?

Giggle giggle, again.

That was a hard one for a few days.  If those two are sure Scum (I mean Kleril and Superblackcat, in that order of suspicion just in case that wasn't blindingly clear already *blink blink*) then I didn't have any, just some people and it was more than starting to feel like that for me.

I'm a bit better now.  I'm kinda speculative about everyone again now, which is goodie.  Persus with his casual "I viewed Luke as town even before I got my role PM."  Mmm.  Yeah.  Kinda reminds me that Luke had been my -third- scummiest player.  Such a casual and easy to suconsciously accept thing to drop into the water.

For now, the holder of Luke's role seems to still have a lot of my suspicions.

Oh hey!  Deathsword, any chance you might be able to be a bit more active here too, when its not Tuesday/Thursday and such?

I know you already give us a lot, and I like it.  I just want more.  Show us more

I probably missed a few things.  I'll catch them next time.  Good luck all, lets get these Scum gone!

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day
Post by: Imp on October 07, 2013, 02:32:51 am

Doh, I messed up and left part of the quote I tried to copy/paste for Mr.Zero's clarity request, how unclear is that!  This should fix it.

Spoiler: Question from Darvi to Mr.Zero, because I wonder what your answer is and I'm willing to help (click to show/hide)

Quote from: Mr.Zero on October 04, 2013, 07:24:56 am

Quote from: Darvi on October 03, 2013, 05:30:42 pm

Zero: What makes you think SBC is more suspicious than Luke?

Well Luke is playing stupid, while SBC is acting scummy. I can actually see Luke in me, at least my first mafia game waaay back. I see no reason to vote for stupidity over scumminess, also so far SBC hasn't even tried to show that he is town trying to help town.

Rolepgeek: Looks like town to me. He acts a bit passively but it doesn't match the shit SBC,Luke and Kleril's (Because of the points Imp has shown) have pulled off.

Luke: Recent acts show that he is more town than scum, though his actions can aid the scum.

Quote from: Darvi on October 04, 2013, 09:07:26 pm

Please explain why you think that makes her scummy and not just a newbie flailing around trying to get a grip? (That sounded meaner than I intended to, but my inability to give a damn prevents me from changing it) Also, you say Luke is playing stupid, yet you implicitly call him scummy right afterwards. Explain this inconsistency. [Giving examples is always good, as is asking them. Even if you have a good idea of how somebody behaves, having somebody else give their opinion is a nice way of confirming your reads or putting them into question. Also, unless you heavily disagree, you shouldn't give your own opinion first. Because, if the reply is similar, how can you tell it hasn't been influenced by what you said earlier?]

Quote from: Mr.Zero on October 05, 2013, 01:20:12 pm

@Darvi, ffs. That's hypocracy, you mention behemoths and you create one yourself. I tried to fork that thing over into neat quotes but it's too much of a hassle as i have trouble spotting what is directed at me and isn't. I will gladly answer every question you have if you show a clear indication that the question is directed at me. Also cut that style, it's more of a pain to read than Imp's.

This confuses me.  I'm willing to help make sure questions to you (or anyone) are findable.  It's probably good for us all to find our own, but I'm getting soooo comfortable with this quoting stuff and all.  And I'm really interested in your answer

Mr.Zero, I hope this new method of heavy spoiler useage makes it easier to read and thus answer.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day
Post by: Mr.Zero on October 07, 2013, 02:55:38 am

IM NOT SURE BUT I THINK THE FORUM AT MY POST NOW,TWICE>

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day
Post by: Imp on October 07, 2013, 04:03:03 am

Quote from: Mr.Zero on October 07, 2013, 02:55:38 am

IM NOT SURE BUT I THINK THE FORUM AT MY POST NOW,TWICE>

Ouchies.  Highly recommend that you have notepad or word or anything open and handy.  I have weird things happen when I type long stuff in the forum's window, it tends to get really laggy and not accept new keypresses - think the forum itself can hear the pleas of y'all that I type shorter and is trying to make me comply too.

So I type elsewhere, then paste and format, copy pack out, make sure it's in good shape, and then I can laugh if something goes wrong.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day
Post by: Tiruin on October 07, 2013, 04:52:35 am

Quote from: Imp on October 07, 2013, 04:03:03 am

Quote from: Mr.Zero on October 07, 2013, 02:55:38 am

IM NOT SURE BUT I THINK THE FORUM AT MY POST NOW,TWICE>

Ouchies.  Highly recommend that you have notepad or word or anything open and handy.  I have weird things happen when I type long stuff in the forum's window, it tends to get really laggy and not accept new keypresses - think the forum itself can hear the pleas of y'all that I type shorter and is trying to make me comply too.

So I type elsewhere, then paste and format, copy pack out, make sure it's in good shape, and then I can laugh if something goes wrong.

D:

{What Imp said. Also if you're using Mozilla Firefox, the Lazarus plug-in is recommended when doing walls of text--you may disable it on everything else.

Also in times like these, it's important to at least give the gist of your argument rather than waiting and remaking it after the intended anxiety has done its course.}

@Imp:

Quote

I can't help it, this is one of the ways I suck.  I'm sure one game or another I'll have it beaten out of me.  I doubt I'll get too much better in a couple weeks or less though even if every one of you gets a stick and sets to - unlike our esteemed Superblackcat, I fear I'm just not in the top 1 percentile of how fast a human can improve, even with all the help you and everyone else playing are surely eager to offer.

I do hope this new spoiler system I'm trying is useful.  This way people can 'shut out' what they're not looking for and see what they want to see more easily, perhaps.  That is my intention at least.

{I've found a way to make it easy and intended. The use of the

Code: [Select]

[hr]Horizontal rule. It acts as a separator to format who and what your paragraphs are aimed at.

Also you don't suck and it won't be beaten out-that analytical thinking-but it will be improved or modified. You dooooon't suck. :I}

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day
Post by: Imp on October 07, 2013, 05:10:33 am

Quote from: Tiruin on October 07, 2013, 04:52:35 am

Also you don't suck and it won't be beaten out-that analytical thinking-but it will be improved or modified. You dooooon't suck. :I}

I so feel Mentored.  You've given me something awesome!  Someone 'in' this game that I can buddy to my heart's content and who won't possibly nightkill me.  This game.  I might not even get lynched for it either. Yet.  Sooo much safer.

I was considering hiding from Rolepgeek's anti-imp-messinesss-to-come under zombie urist's feet or something - but now I'll use you!  Specifically, the length of your posts, which I have not yet admired.  Someday.  Surely a gooood place to hide when Rolepgeek reminds -me- that he has no sense of humor these days, if ever.

I tried that HR stuff, one post.  Oh yeah! Behemoth :D

People still hated it maybe.

---

I can throw a HR or two around, sure but.  I suspect the problem is they has to see too many words/scroll to far.  That's the only think I can think of that's so bad.  Read it once, start skimming if you hates; then you just have to scroll past it to get to new nitty-gritties. But without spoilers.... Broken mice, maybe, dunno.

I know what everyone really hates about the length of the post is all them words... despite the fact that I clearly don't get it.... do the spoilers help?

Thanks for your

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day
Post by: Persus13 on October 07, 2013, 03:53:54 pm

Yay, activity! (even thought only Imp and SBc are the main two posters)

To the lurker tracker! Where Imp has more posts than Darvi, Deathsword, Rolepgeek and Kleril combined!

I'll have a much more detailed post up this evening, but I just got called to do dishes. Thanks Imp for responding to my questions. But to confirm, you think Kleril is more scummy than SBC right now?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day
Post by: Persus13 on October 07, 2013, 05:19:21 pm

Spoilers work well. Quoting your stuff is still a pain, but it's easier to find things in your posts.

Quote from: Imp on October 07, 2013, 02:15:08 am

My current take on 'others buddying me'... as well as on 'me buddying others':]

I don't protest players getting chummy with me (yet - I may learn to, but for now I believe I can use it just like I can use any other interaction).

So if you don't have problems with buddying why is your first piece of your anti-klelil argument is that he was buddying SBC? Also, what's your opinion of Mr. Zero's odd accusation (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4662560#msg4662560) of SBC buddying Kleril but, as I pointed out earlier, when you look at the context seems more understandable?(as I do here) (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4662673#msg4662673).

Quote from: Imp on October 07, 2013, 02:15:08 am

Spoiler: Oh yeah!  Question for everyone, as your answers may vary - Given all these flaws that I see, why does Squill look very Town to so many? (click to show/hide)

Squill promises to ask questions at 'some point' and doesn't for MANY DAYS.  Near as I can tell, he still hasn't, unless we want to count dropping opportune singles so sparingly.  I'm fine with that, but still.... he said!  And he didn't!

He should have been almost replaced for inactivity at one point - I challenged him for having already been inactive for over 48 hours for bleep's sake - and this is during a weekday period.  Why don't any of you care about that?  And he probably WAS lurking - because once challenged, he sure spoke up fast.  -Thank you for that Squill.  But really, behaving good once you get challenged for behaving bad makes you solid town - is Squill being given a break because of wish fulfillment?

In fact, early on I can see SO LITTLE DIFFERENCE between Squill's and Luke's play and answers that I give them the exact same 'stand up, newbie' speech (and it's clear now how into specifics and details I am, right?  Everyone's a unique case to me - but not them, nearly-identical-at-the-time-lurkyloos).

People are praising Squill's reasoning from back when the only reasoning besides chiding Superblackcat that Squill had shown  was with -evident- reluctance and with great hesitation, answering half a question at a time, to say that I'm either Town or Scum.  This game we're -all- either Town or Scum.

I don't disagree with his assessment, and I even like Squill (OK, I'm fond of most of you, even the ones I prepare to help string up), but how in blue blazes is this solid Town play?

Are people confusing -my questioning him- about what he would do as a doctor or a cop with -him trying to drop hints that he is a doctor or a cop-?

Madness.  Utter madness.  At this point, no matter what role I drew, how could I possibly know his role yet?

I really expect more from Squill.  I like his contributions, I just wish.... more of them, yeah.  Oh!  In that, he does seem to be a typical Townie to me

On Squill, we're pretty much agreed in that he seems town but needs to post more. (@Squill: Your answers and questions you gave me were very much appreciated, and if you could scum-hunt more in general would be nice)

Quote from: Imp on October 07, 2013, 02:16:03 am

'Spoiled' by this one long reply, continued...

Spoiler: Persus13 has been waiting for this.  I typed it last and parts of it (ooh invited to 'discuss'...) are nearly stream of consciousness for I am a very tired imp now (click to show/hide)

[Excuses for SBC's behavior]
AND an ability to suddenly (though not necessarily spontaneously) improve greatly with unbelievable speed.

[And more in depth reasons why Kleril is scum]

Thanks for the answers and analysis of post-Behemoth discussion. I agree with you that SBC is looking less like scum and his play has improved. However, that is the point of Beginner's Mafia, to help people get used to and ready for Bay12's Mafia environment. Without BM (plus reading through the first three Supernatural games) I would have been like Squill or Kleril when I started. Since the game's started, almost everyone's play has been improved, not just SBC. So I agree his play has improved, I'm not completely sure it's because he's getting tips from a Scum IC.

Quote from: Imp on October 07, 2013, 02:16:03 am

Spoiler: One thing Persus said bugs me.  And one thing no one's said yet bugs me too - a spoiler meant for all. (click to show/hide)

Bye Luke, who ate so much of my time.... Hi Persus13!  I've been very very very eager to be in a Mafia game with you.  Have been from before play started, and haven't been quiet about it at all off the thread either.  But the switch to you threw Luke's role to me from 'known to be impenetrable' into no read on you.  Which leads me to present my one beef that I know I have with you so far.

Quote from: Persus13 on October 05, 2013, 06:45:32 pm

I viewed Luke as town even before I got my role PM.

I strongly feel the information gained from Luke was that no information could be gained from Luke.  Does any other player here think Luke -was- Town, and would have behaved differently if only he were Scum?

Persus, my only request of you at this point is to please help me understand how you could possibly say that in this situation, considering how intelligent and perceptive you have given me proof that you are (even in only considering this thread and your behavior so far).

[Imp  talks about herself, and mentions some of the reasons why I think she's town]

Spoiler: Why I read Luke is town (click to show/hide)

1) His supposed scumtells seemed to be easily explained by newb or child-like behavior, things I had previously associated with him based off the RTD forum.
2) Once again, seemed fairly out-of-his-depth (Ex. here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4641600#msg4641600), here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4646659#msg4646659), and here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4649855#msg4649855))
3) There was a 2/9 probability he was scum
4) I am a sucker for the underdog, and he seemed like the perfect candidate for a D1 lynch, combined with my annoyance at a Supernatural where a noob got lynched for "defending himself too much" and turning out to be town made me view him more favorably.
5) It was an opinion of mine that Luke was town, something that could have been a wrong view, but I agree with you, that

Also, I take issue with your claim that no information could be gotten by Lukinator. There could be some info gained, but not much.

---

Quote from: Superblackcat on October 06, 2013, 04:17:13 pm

I don't have time to address anything else. I'm at Chinese School :<

I hope to see your responses to Imp's spoilered posts as well as some scum-hunting. Do have more reasons besides that Imp and Mr. Zero are buddying to suspect Mr. Zero of being scum?

Deathsword: Any more from you?
Darvi: You're voting Imp, has your opinion changed at all?

Kleril: If your still active, what's your reaction to the reasons I think you are scum and have voted you?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day
Post by: Squill on October 07, 2013, 05:59:29 pm

Quote from: Superblackcat on October 06, 2013, 02:05:32 pm

It's been 5 hours of nervous waiting :<

Squill, Could you completely answer my question? By giving thoughts about every, and not just myself?

Since, I'm up there in your scum list, there must be others right? Who would they be and why? Or are you just jumping on bandwagons.

Ugh. Sorry for the delay, I thought I'd post earlier, but I had a lot more homework than I expected.

Imp: Imp is... one of my higher picks for scum. I just get a bad gut reaction from him, it seems like he is too quick to to latch onto a target as "scum," and a little bit too slow to let go when they give reasonable answers.
SBC: Your more recent posts seem a little bit less scummy than your previous ones. Your attempts to find out who people suspect to be scum partners rather than scum as individuals could be a scum trying to find out if his partner is suspected, but that seems a little bit far fetched to me.
MrZero: I'm feeling a little bit less confident in him being town now. His posting is not too often, and doesn't seem to contain a whole lot of information, at least to me.
kleril: I'm not liking the way it's looking for him. He seems to be rather defensive, and not a whole lot of other content coming from him. I still am not sure if he is scum, but his lynch could possibly informative. Anyways, I'm not quite dedicated to lynching him yet, but I certainly wouldn't be too upset if it did happen.
Persus13: Persus seems a lot better now. Certainly better than lukinator. Of course, it is possible that lukinator was a scum under a lot of pressure, and decided to get out of the game before screwing over the scum.
Rolepgeek: I don't get particularly scummy vibes from him. At this point it seems like this isn't just lurking, it seems like he's either unable or unwilling to put aside the time to play the game.
Darvi: Seems pretty town, although I don't think he's been here long enough to feel to convinced yet.
Deathsword: I'm thinking town. Although he's not as frequent a poster, as say, Imp, but I think that most of what he does post is pretty solid.

Well, that's all. Sorry that it's probably not that good, but I'm a bit burned out after coming home from school only to write around seven pages, and I'm kinda blowing off a friend so that I can type this.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day
Post by: Persus13 on October 07, 2013, 06:07:08 pm

Quote from: Squill on October 07, 2013, 05:59:29 pm

Imp: Imp is... one of my higher picks for scum. I just get a bad gut reaction from him, it seems like he is too quick to to latch onto a target as "scum," and a little bit too slow to let go when they give reasonable answers.

Glad to hear from you, and I enjoy your comments (and agree with several of them).  Also, Imp is a her, not a him.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day
Post by: kleril on October 07, 2013, 06:10:25 pm

Christ, I've got a lot of reading to catch up on. I'll be throwing up a much larger response later, provided this doesn't tranform into one on its own.

To start, I'm not sure how to deal with all this anti-me momentum that's been growing against me. I've been playing stupid scummy, which is inexcusable, and I apologize to everyone who's been wasing all this time on me.

I'd like to welcome Persus to the game, and I'll take this opportunity to extend an unvote until you say or do something to change my mind.

Onto SBC: Smart move, but no. I've got to stand up to this. SBC's earlier attempts to try and get all buddy-buddy with me are most likely just to drive me further into the ground. I look scummy enough based on my bad play, and getting all this positive attention from the other top scum pick would make it look as if we were both scum, but I plead that this is not the case. There has been zero reason to support me, for any reason. My play's been shitty, and anyone taking that as scumtells, you're wrong, but justifiably so. SBC's approval of my play was trying to make me look scummier by proxy.

Quote from: Superblackcat on October 04, 2013, 06:50:46 pm

The scum tell in there, actually two, is that first of all. You didn't question ANYTHING, Imp said. Are you telling me that you agree with every single point in that behemoth post? Or did you just skim the "VOTE KLERIL" part, and then decided to include his name?

Also, You proceed to say luke is just dumb? Why the contradiction? Why include Luke's name in the first place?

for this, you deserve a Vote (MrZero)

Quote from: Superblackcat on September 29, 2013, 10:41:21 pm

kleril doesn't seem scum, but He hasn't had enough activity of the late for me to tell...

I agree with what kleril said about Imp.

If this game continues down the path it does, just remember this after I've been voted out.

On the other hand, there's this:

Quote from: Darvi on October 04, 2013, 09:07:26 pm

Quote from: kleril on October 04, 2013, 07:47:17 pm

This question I want answered NOW: Why are you asking for clarification on how role blockers work? To me this just screams scum.

That looks like a leading question to me. Where else would you ask for clarifications?

Answer: In scumchat. So why'd SBC post it here? Thoughts on this? Should this be held in SBC's favour, or is this being asked outside of scumchat just a play to feign innocence?

@Darvi:

Quote from: Darvi on October 04, 2013, 09:07:26 pm

kleril has so far mostly behaving like town, but that doesn't mean much.

Care to shed a little insight on why you think I've been behaving like town? At all? Even I think I've been playing reflexively and shitty.

Quote from: Darvi on October 04, 2013, 09:07:26 pm

Imp is getting too comfortable with their picks. That sounds like scum pre-emptively deciding on the lynches because fuck scumhunting, you know you can trust them. Right?

I don't like Mr.Z's inconsistency and vagueness regarding his reads. Got any more reasons for your town read on RPG?

The only pick Imp is sure of is me. Are they too comfortable with it? Yeah, but I'm partially at fault for that, and looking to change it. If this behaviour continues past D1, then something's up, but for now it seems excusable.

@Zero[/size]:

Quote from: Mr.Zero on October 05, 2013, 01:20:12 pm

@Darvi, I will gladly answer every question you have if you show a clear indication that the question is directed at me.

Quote from: Darvi on October 04, 2013, 09:07:26 pm

Got any more reasons for your town read on RPG?

There's a question directed at you, and you blew it off. Now, answer it. RPG's had so little town-esque activity that I can't believe that you know something we don't. On top of that, you avoided answering the question.

@Persus: Now that you know Luke's role, can you try and justify whatever he's done from an insider's perspective?

Quote from: Persus13 on October 07, 2013, 05:19:21 pm

Kleril: If your still active, what's your reaction to the reasons I think you are scum and have voted you?

Quote from: Persus13 on October 05, 2013, 10:48:24 pm

1. Deflection to SBC after the Behemoth was posted (here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4660025#msg4660025) and claiming that because scum knows Kleril thinks SBC is scum, they'll change their plans, and blaming Imp for that. Also here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4661195#msg4661195): Attacking SBC for being a newb and asking Mods/IC for clarification on Roleblockers)

2. Jumped on the lynch Lukinator bandwagon (while this is understandable, I'm pretty confident at least one scum jumped on this bandwagon, which means Kleril, Deathsword, Squill, Darvi, or Imp is scum, and at the moment, Kleril and Deathsword look the most scummy out of the 5)

3. The whole faith in Imp not being scum is strange, plus has focused almost solely on Imp and to a lesser extant Lukinator, and has been mainly defending himself even before the Behemoth. His 8th post on.

re:
1. If scum plays smart, they'll only vote out obvious town members. I'm not too sure how knowing who top scum picks are is going to play out, but it feels to me that top town picks will end up NK'd over suspicious players, and laying that information out for the scum may not be the best idea. I could be wrong, though. (@ICs: Care to clarify what's a smarter play, and why?)
See above blip just before the @Darvi for roleblockers bit.

2. He never gave proper justification for his play, or even acknowledged it. Going silent the way he did helped nobody, least of all town.

3. I've been playing poorly. Focusing too much on defending myself (which I'm evidently awful at) has taken too much of my attention to actively scumhunt - which I understand isn't helping my case whatsoever. I don't think Imp is scum, based on our ongoing 'thing'. Call it what you may. At least for me, this has convinced me they're not scum, although this may cost me and the town a mislynch.

@RPG: Can you please post something with some content in it? What are your thoughts on Zero's approval of your playing? I don't think it's a fair judgement. Do you?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day
Post by: Imp on October 07, 2013, 06:59:32 pm

Persus13:

Quote from: Persus13 on October 07, 2013, 03:53:54 pm

Imp ... to confirm, you think Kleril is more scummy than SBC right now?

Yes.

Spoiler: additional information about that yes... what, you think I'm -capable- of a one word answer?  Only with great effort (click to show/hide)

That was always my assertation, that was the core of Behemoth:

Quote from: Imp on October 04, 2013, 03:45:33 am

Kleril is my top Scum pick.  I think there is about a 96% likelihood that he is Scum, and feel about 90% sure that I am right in my assessment of him and his play.

Superblackcat is my second top Scum pick.  I think there is about an 85% likelihood that he is Scum, and feel about 70% sure I am right in my assessment of him and his play.

Pretty much everything in Behemoth is why either of those two are a better lynch choice than Luke, the 'obvious choice'.

When I posted Behemoth, I said "I don't care which, Kleril or Superblackcat, is lynched first."  That has definitely changed.

I'm by NO means convinced that Cat is Town, but I'm also no longer convinced that Cat almost certainly Scum.  Cat is still my second scummiest choice, but with a confidence level that's about 55% thought and only 35% emotion.  Before anyone thinks that means I think Cat is probably Town - I don't.  Best I can say is 'Cat is possibly Town, but looks really scummy for possibly comprehensible, but bad, reasons'.

Nothing yet has significantly changed my level of suspicion of Kleril.

I am perfectly willing not to rush and I do want to hear what others, especially Kleril have to say.  There's that second Scum to find too.  Later I'll get back to analysis, it's not something I can do from work.

Superblackcat

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

You're going in the right direction.  I'm mad at you because I believe you walked into this game and started play with a vast 'lazy mind' perspective; you were here to be here, but not really think or put any effort into playing the game.  This cost me a lot of time I'd rather have put into checking out someone who was Scum.... then again, if you ARE Scum I'm not mad at you at all.  Know that you have my permanent FOS for the rest of this game. 

You're way better than Luke, and you're doing a lot to improve your previously bad performance, but the fact that your performance -was- so bad allows me to very, very easily write a hypothesis that explains -every- action you have made so far in game as being the behavior of Scum.  Even your new behaviors.  To me, the absolute worst thing you did was your FOS/Top townie post, and you nearly remained a HIGH probability Scum pick because of it in my mind.  By my standards, you lied in your reasoning given AND showed (further) clear evidence of being a player who just didn't care but wanted to look good and seem to be thinking.  How the heck are we supposed to distinguish that from Scum?

Oh, you were honest about Mr.Zero (for all that your reasonings for him being your top Scum pick were trash(OMGUS without support) in my eyes), but you essentially randomly grabbed everyone else you talked about in your list because they were easy to notice and easy to find anything to type about.  By claiming them to be your top picks, to -me- you cannot possibly HAVE top picks without REAL reasons, which takes real thought.  You had fake reasons, so you gave fake picks.  They taste fake to me.  Be super careful not to lie any further to us, alright?  What has saved you, at least for now, is that your claim about believing there were only 7 players actually makes sense in both how you could have entered the game with that misunderstanding, and how you have played throughout supports that you actually believed it and are the sort of person and thinker who could make such and error and play as you have been for 2 weeks without noticing the mistake.

Now, that requires me to assign you a variety of characteristics (lazyness, carelessness, aversion to fact checking, preference to assume you were always right despite increasing evidence that you were mistaken among others) that I'd probably rather be lynched than create the illusion of having... or genuinely have for real.  All this can be fixed though.  Keep working, this is an effortful game.  You're not off my scum list by any means, to my eyes you are an easy, easy target and you indeed could be Scum.  You've got my permanent FOS for this game because even the improvement you have shown (so far that I have noticed) does not make you look different than a Scum trying to escape the noose.

But I'm perfectly willing to agree that we shouldn't be fast to hang you.  The only way I'm going to support your lynching is if I agree that we really can't find someone who seems more likely to be Scum than you.

Stay awake though, alright?  Don't get lazy again at all! and stay super squeaky-clean honest with us.  If I can only understand your behavior to be deceptive, incomprehensible, OR not really progressing us towards a Town win, well.  You do not have a clean slate in my eyes.  You will have to work hard to look like Town, because Town has a hard job to do, and you already used up (in my eyes) just about all the leeway of 'reasonable doubt' I can give anyone.  That doesn't mean you can't be wrong, but it does mean you can't just coast.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day
Post by: Darvi on October 07, 2013, 07:28:56 pm

Quote from: Superblackcat on October 04, 2013, 09:37:21 pm

@Darvi, You would be my current top town tell, because with that one post, it's gone through more than anyone else, except for maybe Imp. And frankly, I like your logic. Of course, I do think that you could be a wolf in sheeps clothing, and looking at that veteraness in those posts, I can see how easily you could probably pretend to be town. And how well you would do it.

I don't like sheep's clothing. Too scratchy. I'm a wolf who hunts other wolves 'cause they're (even bigger) arseholes. (Actually I'm more of a rodent person. So it's more accurate to say that I'm going for their nuts.)

Quote from: Superblackcat on October 04, 2013, 09:37:21 pm

Could everyone list their genders please, This guessing game is too hard.

N/A. I really don't care.

Quote from: Deathsword on October 05, 2013, 12:48:13 pm

{Roleblockers target someone during the night. If their target attempted to perform an action that same night, it'll fail. If the target does not/cannot perform an action (which is pretty much anything, including kills), nothing happens. It's up to the mod if the target knows they were blocked or not. The scum players decide which will perform the kill. If that player is blocked, then there is no kill (Mod/Darvi, correct me if I am wrong). A player cannot peform more than one action unless their role states otherwise. By stalker, I guess you mean role-cop.}

That is correct.

Quote from: Superblackcat on October 05, 2013, 01:11:01 pm

@Deathsword, I'm quite happy to lynch someone, but no one in this game has enough evidence against them.

Interesting. How much evidence does somebody need to convince you? How much evidence do you need to convince yourself?

Quote from: Mr.Zero on October 05, 2013, 01:20:12 pm

@Darvi, ffs. That's hypocracy, you mention behemoths and you create one yourself. I tried to fork that thing over into neat quotes but it's too much of a hassle as i have trouble spotting what is directed at me and isn't. I will gladly answer every question you have if you show a clear indication that the question is directed at me. Also cut that style, it's more of a pain to read than Imp's.

a) That's not a real word.
b) I'd like you to reply to an entire day's worth of posts with a bunch of IC advice, with using less content. You'll notice that every part of the reply has been kept short enough on its own, with quotes in between so people know what I'm talking about.
c) It's generally understood that the person being quoted is the one being addressed, unless the context makes it clear that they're not being addressed. So? Are they scumhunting or not?
d) What style? The transparency? Weeeell. [Suck it up, I guess?]

Quote from: Persus13 on October 05, 2013, 11:28:54 pm

Quote from: Superblackcat on October 05, 2013, 11:18:22 pm

@Persus, Since you believe kleril is scum, who do you think his partner is?

Not completely sure. Imp's pretty sure your Kleril's partner, but there's a few people I can cross off. If Kleril's scum, then I'm pretty sure Imp isn't scum as the two have been arguing for pretty much the entire game. Otherwise the choices are pretty open.

You mention "a few people". At best, you actually list one. Who else would you cross off if your had to choose?

Also re:replacements: [Any questions about the person being replaced amount to what's essentially role-fishing. The replacement doesn't know what the previous person was thinking and should say so. The only information they have about their predecessor is what their role tells them, and that should naturally stay secret. Basically, treat the new guy as if they had been playing the entire game.]

Quote from: Imp on October 06, 2013, 07:59:37 am

[snip]

Much better, thanks.

Quote from: Superblackcat on October 07, 2013, 01:56:27 am

Has Scum actually gotten help from the Scum IC?

Why would you care to know this? And ideally, not in a way that makes NQT do all the work.

Quote from: Imp on October 07, 2013, 02:15:08 am

Madness.  Utter madness.

Welcome to B12 mafia, where confirmed scum saves the day, people get killed multiple times the same night and still keep playing, and traitorous cultists sacrifice their mafia teammates into a scum-win.

Spoiler: Spoilered, just for you! (click to show/hide)

Quote from: Imp on October 07, 2013, 02:15:08 am

Gosh.  And I even gave two type of reasons:



Who cares about the last few days?  I said why, time pressure and gosh, I think I found two Scum, what do the rest of you think? (what reaction do you two Scum-looking players have?)

How many scum in a known unknown game am I supposed to look for?  How many questions am I supposed to ask, especially when for various reasons I feel like I've asked more than any and done great good with my questions?  Sure, you're motivating.  You and everyone are helping me get my motivation back (having more time doesn't hurt either).  I'm SUPER DUPER interested in watching you all interact, by any chance with these many thousands of words, have I maybe said enough that it makes sense for me to listen some?  I'm trying too, I think it makes sense!

There's a few problems with this. First of all, I'm not saying you were inactive. Au contraire, you were extremely active, by some standards. Which is why I am now wondering why you try to use these quotes to explain why you haven't done any questioning. You managed to get these posts out, yet I see nothing resembling an interrogation.

Now, that is easily explained by your belief of having found both scum. Which is astonishingly conceited, because there is no such thing as a confirmed role barring a flip or the claim of a confirmed cop. If I were to begin OMGUSing people on a badwagon because I'm drunk off wine, would you start thinking me scum? Most probably, but then you would have to consider that one of the other two guys is town.

You don't win by being sure of your choices, you win by questioning them. Surely, there is the possibility that whomever you're voting is just bad at the game, and the scum is just really good at posing as town? (Fun fact: I am better at playing town-like as scum, as anybody who knows my meta could tell you.)

That being said, the most tedious part of this game is actually writing the posts. Or maybe parsing the stuff that's going on, I guess. I kinda just wing it while typing. Either way, what doesn't take a lot of time is asking questions. At this point, you would probably have to follow up on what has happened so far, but given how much thought you have clearly given to your reasons, it shouldn't be hard to ask people for their opinions or something. Or maybe somebody has said something that you didn't understand or you'd like them to elaborate on? TL;DR blaming lacking activity for lackign questions in the posts that you domake is not a valid excuse.

Quote from: Imp on October 07, 2013, 02:15:08 am

Sniffle.  I thought I did a lot more than reason.  Doesn't the time ever come when the questions (from me) pause, the case is presented, and I who have questioned so much listens, listens, listens, and responds?  Besides, I claim serious, massive, current school pressure; all that AND unforeseen work pressure too.  You're doing good Imp, I says to me, yes you are.  Thanks Imp, I reply.

You shouldn't expect any thanks from me. In fact  I'm going to retroactively strike through those above right now.

Also, no. As I said, you should always keep going. Right now, I'm considering the possibility that you might just be overly overconfident town.

Quote from: Imp on October 07, 2013, 02:15:08 am

Any other two people (I bet Rolepgeek is willing to be one of these, with the addendum that it's not that I'm not doing anything, it's that I'm not doing anything useful, that's his beef with me) want to agree with Darvi here?  Come on, surely you want to.  Call me lazy.  Call me inactive.  Tell me I'm not doing something, and furthermore that I've been inactive when I haven't said I needed to be or failed to return as promised after a 'reasonable' time gone.

Just nobody tell me I make posts that are too long.  We're trying to only speak truths here, right?

Thanks for the tickle, Darvi.  I am feeling more motivated.  Can't confirm that you're a major reason why, yet. but you're part of it and I'm grateful.

Inactive? No. Lazy? Also no, but you put too much effort into explaining yourself and not enough investigating.

Too long? Again, no. Sometimes you just need that much to get your points all across. But good formatting does wonders, which you've just proven.

Quote from: Imp on October 07, 2013, 02:15:08 am

And then what?  You find the two who you think are really likely Scum, no you're not sure sure sure sure sure about both but wow, your newbie Scum senses are all atingle and you've done the best you think you can to show your evidence - and you present to everyone and people talk and stuff - so obviously you keep watching and talking but what -else- do you do?

What's that next step besides stay involved and let people think when not answering them and watching everything and questioning yourself to make sure you still think you have solved the puzzle?

The next step is waiting for the day to end and watch if all that work has paid off. Chances are, it hasn't, but what do you expect in a game where newbtown is prone to just as many fuckups as newbscum.
But so far, that's literally all there is to it. Sure, you can stop asking questions at some point when people are busy discussing other stuff, but when all you're doing is justifying your own votes and complain about the lack of activity it's fairly obvious that that point hasn't been reached yet.

Quote from: Imp on October 07, 2013, 02:15:08 am

Though, this is BM, where the Scum can 'suffer' though some pretty awesome training in the 'safety of the Scumchat' with their very own and sometimes very awesome Scum IC, and might then come back to play with a whole bunch of flaws suddenly gone, though yep they are still Scum cause that's not what changed.

But this is alright, right?  Because unless the 'bait and switch' of thought process and writing content happens pretty darn subtly, why then 'a sudden vast improvement that seems unlikely considering the prior days' postings... good answers replacing 'recent, highly different and denser play' in a BM is a likely Scum tell and is a good reason to stay suspicious of a 'wow, what changed in your thinking, you are now GREAT!' kinda way?

Scum doesn't get awesome training, not much more than you do, at least. Their IC isn't telling them exactly what to do, only how they should do it, and what pitfalls they should avoid.  Pretty much what I'm trying to do here too, except applicabe to scum.
But yeah, their IC will probably point out that something is a bad idea and then they will stop doing it. Or maybe they figured as much from your vote on their own. Either way, if they start acting like actual town, that means they will start acting in town's favour, which obviously is against their own favour. In the long run, they will most likely encounter a conflict of interest (such as having to bus their own teammate, or not being able to lynch somebody they really want dead - wasting a perfectly good opportunity to kill somebody). This, naturally, is a good thing, except for those odd cases where scum is either so good or town is bad enough that they win anyway. Which is why you want to keep them engaged as to give them more opportunities to slip.


Meh.  I work darn hard for my finds and then I give them to everyone and I listen and I think and I debate and and I want to win so bad.  I'm probably wrong on some things, I'll call it a miracle if I'm right on even 80%.  But I found a TON of evidence  Even if it's all junk it sure looks convincing to me and I worked my neurons off for a lot of it.  While working a 40 hour workweek and taking organic chemistry AND during a week that included first exam as well as some surprise extra super time consuming stuff at work.  And I'm trying to play in a way that's not harmful to the game or any of the players in it, or likely to give anyone that bad burned feeling of 'wow, that game sucks' even if they probably have trouble not feeling that way because of triggers and really wanting to win and feeling blocked.

Quote from: Imp on October 06, 2013, 03:16:16 pm

Just keep teaching best you can, and me too please, between whatever tickles you feel are necessary?  That's all I'll ask for.  Oh, I may have more and better questions for you soon too.  Just not tonight, I'm tired and already tried to do a lot for my Town today.

I'll be waiting.

Quote from: Persus13 on October 07, 2013, 03:53:54 pm

To the lurker tracker! Where Imp has more posts than Darvi, Deathsword, Rolepgeek and Kleril combined!

5 posts per week is the best you can expect from me - One for each weekday.

Quote from: Persus13 on October 07, 2013, 05:19:21 pm

3) There was a 2/9 probability he was scum

Protip: quoting statistics is pointless at best and scummy at worst.

Quote from: Persus13 on October 07, 2013, 05:19:21 pm

Darvi: You're voting Imp, has your opinion changed at all?

That would necessitate that I held any opinions at all. If I did, they wouldn't have changed so far,  though. I'm gonna hold off judgement until their next post.

Quote from: kleril on October 07, 2013, 06:10:25 pm

Care to shed a little insight on why you think I've been behaving like town? At all? Even I think I've been playing reflexively and shitty.

When the accusations start piling up, I expect people to play reflexively and shitty in a BM. That being said, do note that I said "mostly". But there were some other things that seemed to me like how newbtown would behave. You adequately explained your non-vote back then (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4655270#msg4655270), which turned that little piece of suspicion into a non-issue. For actual town-behaviour, there's your active work here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4660410#msg4660410) and here again (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4655270#msg4655270) (the tone and content in your post seemed to indicate that the vote wasn't a bandwagon yet).  What spoke against you at that point was, ya well, mostly the fact that you were to easily judging Squill and Imp as town with little to no reason. Latching onto the most active player seems like a stupid newb thing to do, but the read on Squill was odd.

In hindsight, I was probably overrating the good bits, but that's the gist of it.

Quote from: kleril on October 07, 2013, 06:10:25 pm

Answer: In scumchat. So why'd SBC post it here? Thoughts on this? Should this be held in SBC's favour, or is this being asked outside of scumchat just a play to feign innocence?

Precisely. However, posting in scumhat is impossible unless you're scum, so a townie would have to ask here (or PM the mod). But as you have pointed out, scum can just do it to feign ignorance. Or maybe they're the jailer and worried about blocks. Or they're asking ahead to be prepared in future games. What I'm saying is, this is WIFOM and should be ignored. I don't know why you would consider it scummy that they asked the question here, and in turn made youself look scummy by doing so.

Quote from: kleril on October 07, 2013, 06:10:25 pm

The only pick Imp is sure of is me. Are they too comfortable with it? Yeah, but I'm partially at fault for that, and looking to change it. If this behaviour continues past D1, then something's up, but for now it seems excusable.

Don't you worry, I'm taking that into account.

Quote from: kleril on October 07, 2013, 06:10:25 pm

@Persus: Now that you know Luke's role, can you try and justify whatever he's done from an insider's perspective?

Let me interrupt you there and spare him the reply by repeating what I said earlier. Replacements cannot be held accountable for what the replacee did. Don't bother asking, just pretend they've always been part of the game, except lurking.

Blah, I bet there's gonna be yet another reply after I type this sentence.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day
Post by: Persus13 on October 07, 2013, 07:42:46 pm

As always, thanks for the responses Darvi.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day
Post by: Imp on October 07, 2013, 08:01:19 pm

Quote from: Darvi on October 07, 2013, 07:28:56 pm

{Any questions about the person being replaced amount to what's essentially role-fishing. The replacement doesn't know what the previous person was thinking and should say so. The only information they have about their predecessor is what their role tells them, and that should naturally stay secret. Basically, treat the new guy as if they had been playing the entire game.}

Obviously a person cannot tell us another's reasons, but is it fair to ask a replacement what they think of posts made by their predecessor?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day
Post by: Imp on October 07, 2013, 09:01:33 pm

Persus13: I'm going to ask this question and wait for its answer before I answer

Mr.Zero, explain your answer to this, both what you were answering (a portion of the question, an implication that was not said in the question, the question as a whole, or whatever else) and what your answer means?

Quote from: Mr.Zero on October 05, 2013, 01:20:12 pm

Quote from: Superblackcat on October 04, 2013, 06:50:46 pm

You seem to understand Imp very well... Might you be getting clarifications, or just frankly status updates with eachother... in a certain thing called Scum chat?

You two seems to be working together. It wasn't very apparent in the previous posts, but because of that post, I've noticed you guys have basically agreed on everything.

Totally, and you?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day
Post by: Superblackcat on October 07, 2013, 09:17:50 pm

@Imp,

For your "epiphany" question, which was basically your whole post, I think. It's because I'm more used to this style of mafia. I've played mafia, actually over 200 games of mafia, though I've never played mafia on this forum, with this setup. I took time to get used to, and usually, the mafia I played were live, on the go, 30 minute mafia. Or, less active forum mafia. I think that's why I "suddenly became better" I grew used to how this thing moves along, and wasn't being obnoxiously stupid against asking questions.

Oh shoot, There's more posts ;-;.
I'll be right back.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day
Post by: Imp on October 07, 2013, 09:49:20 pm

Persus13:

Spoiler: pertinent previous quotes (click to show/hide)

Quote from: Persus13 on October 07, 2013, 05:19:21 pm

Quote from: Imp on October 07, 2013, 02:16:03 am

spoiler=One thing Persus said bugs me.  And one thing no one's said yet bugs me too - a spoiler meant for all.
Bye Luke, who ate so much of my time.... Hi Persus13!  I've been very very very eager to be in a Mafia game with you.  Have been from before play started, and haven't been quiet about it at all off the thread either.  But the switch to you threw Luke's role to me from 'known to be impenetrable' into no read on you.  Which leads me to present my one beef that I know I have with you so far.

Quote from: Persus13 on October 05, 2013, 06:45:32 pm

I viewed Luke as town even before I got my role PM.

I strongly feel the information gained from Luke was that no information could be gained from Luke.  Does any other player here think Luke -was- Town, and would have behaved differently if only he were Scum?

Persus, my only request of you at this point is to please help me understand how you could possibly say that in this situation, considering how intelligent and perceptive you have given me proof that you are (even in only considering this thread and your behavior so far).

[Imp  talks about herself, and mentions some of the reasons why I think she's town]/spoiler

spoiler=Why I read Luke is town
1) His supposed scumtells seemed to be easily explained by newb or child-like behavior, things I had previously associated with him based off the RTD forum.
2) Once again, seemed fairly out-of-his-depth (Ex. here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4641600#msg4641600), here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4646659#msg4646659), and here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4649855#msg4649855))
3) There was a 2/9 probability he was scum
4) I am a sucker for the underdog, and he seemed like the perfect candidate for a D1 lynch, combined with my annoyance at a Supernatural where a noob got lynched for "defending himself too much" and turning out to be town made me view him more favorably.
5) It was an opinion of mine that Luke was town, something that could have been a wrong view, but I agree with you, that

---

Also, I take issue with your claim that no information could be gotten by Lukinator. There could be some info gained, but not much. /spoiler

Meant to ask you a slightly different question than you answered, but great to have the other answer too.  I'll change my question again.

Why'd you say "I viewed Luke as town even before I got my role PM."?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day
Post by: Superblackcat on October 07, 2013, 09:56:47 pm

Congratulations kleril, you just left Imp in the dust on the Scum-o-meter.

If you have bothered to read about 3 of my posts, you would see that first, There was NO buddying done towards you, in fact... I argued SEVERELY against any buddying. Second, "I agree with kleril" was indeed very vague, and was cleared up through atleast 3 posts containing the SAME information because I didn't think some people saw it through walls of text. Third, I did not think you were scum, until you replied to the behemoth, and even then, I defended you because I saw that a lot of the accusations had to do with ME acting scummy at the beginning of the game. I then attacked MrZ because of his pure lack of reasoning, and how easily he accepted things others said. As much as I like other people's opinions, I take them all with a grain of salt, he embraced Imp's without any restriction.

That made me think you were scummy, then you continue on to "I'm sorry I've been scummy, it's inexcusable but you guys are wrong thinking I am scummy, in fact, lets just make this all SBC's fault, and vote MrZ". I supported you because you made a lot of the mistakes I made at the beginning, I continued to support you after you attacked me, because it was a valid option, even if you were town, to get yourself out of the predicament. Sadly, I don't support you anymore. I am very tempted to vote you instead of MrZ, but let's see how this plays out.

Next, What is your reason's for voting MrZ? Blowing off one question? He already said he had stuff written up, but it got deleted. It seems like you aren't even taking the time to SKIM through all the posts. Sadly, I do kind of believe Imp that you are scum.
 

---

On Squill: he was my top town pick, because as Imp said with MrZero, he was mostly down the middle of the line. He said nothing that was actually scummy, and seemed like a mostly busy, putting some thought into it, but not too much, mafia player.

---

@Darvi, I've already convinced myself of both kleril and MrZero, but I don't think they are partners, which makes my life difficult. I'm still keeping an eye out to see who is more scummy.

My second question was more of a "troll" question in hopes of one of the mafia leaking a "yes".


I agree that stats are not insanely important. But at some point, it's important, and even though people may say "math is a distraction" if you do the mathematically correct way, usually you would win, more often than you would lose.

---

I believe that the way Luke talked should not be put against persus. Luke's way of talking, because of how overwhelmed he was, could signify that he was either town of scum.

IF I missed anything, could you guys please repost the question, or lead me to it. I think I hit everything, but I could've mis-skimed something.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day
Post by: Rolepgeek on October 07, 2013, 10:57:49 pm

*cracks knuckles*

Alright. I've pissed myself off enough with procrastinating and lurking that I'm gonna get over my irrational fear of my IPad and post something for fuck's sake.

First, let's respond to questions. Then, I can pick apart Imp at my leisure. Mostly Imp because he's been annoying me and as you could probably guess, I haven't been paying as much attention to the game as I'd like. Now that I've set myself on doing this, I'll be looking through all the posts as I sweep for questions at me, and seeing who looks scummy.

I won't be quoting, unfortunately. I'll refer to the post number and person asking the question, and possibly repeat the question, instead.

Quote

@Superblackcat, reply #176, concerning my top scums and FoS.

I'll get back to you. I need to look through the posts, and badly. Harass me if I don't get back to this.

Quote

@Persus, reply #181, multiple questions; Opinion post-behemoth, Opinions about Imp's accusations, and Reasoning for not posting

About everything post behemoth, I can't say anything yet. I still need to sweep through and process everything. I did read the Behemoth(not thoroughly though) and his accusations a bit ago, and preliminary thoughts have me annoyed at him taking shit out of context again, finding things where there aren't, and focusing on the wrong things for scum hunting. Oh, and it got me pissed off as a player(OOC, so to speak) about how he was talking to Lukeinator. HEY IMP; don't tell people not to play the fucking game because you think they're playing badly. That's the point of a goddamn beginner's mafia. Jeezus. Your first time playing too, bud, and even if you think you're hot shit for having experience with people(impressive background, I'll admit), my observances of your play have you focusing on semantics more than anything. That may have changed in the last five pages. I certainly hope so. Oh, almost forgot. Reason I didn't post is that I kept procrastinating. By the time I got myself around, I would feel I didn't have enough time. I'm bad at that. I'm gonna try to make this priority one game, though, since it's the only one besides Perplexicon that's really time-sensitive in the traditional sense.

Quote

@Imp, reply #209, Questions about my incessant lurking

YES THANK YOU SO MUCH
That is a good question! Oh my god I'm so glad you're finally focusing on the right stuff. I knew I would be called out on that because it was shameful behavior, I'll admit. Like I said, it was procrastination, doing other games first, etc. But the reason that I was procrastinating so much is that I thought that it would be incredibly difficult to effectively post on anything but my computer, and since my computer can do so much, I would get distracted by other things. Mostly because I was wanting to dissect the behemoth piece by piece and feed it to you, a foolish endeavor, but yeah. Just my fault, basically. Gonna try to fix that, since I've found the solution to my I-pad troubles(mostly brought on by the fact that I have to switch tabs often to do mafia, and my I-pad likes to make it reload the page when I come back, eating my post. It's discouraging): Select All, Copy, Paste. I hope to participate more fully in the future(as for the 1000 word post, I did that on my computer, and really should've been doing Mafia instead. More time-sensitive.)

Quote

@kleril, reply #219, regarding me posting and Mr. Zero's assessment of my activity(I'm noticing a theme here...)

I do hope this counts as posting something with content. As for his assessment, I think it's a poor one. I've been doing terribly, with lurking like that, purposefully or not. So I suppose I disagree with e reasoning behind the assessment, if not the assessment itself.

Huh. Thought there'd be more questions. Time for the more detailed sweep and cursory thoughts to answer SBC and Persus.

Oh wait! Darvi's question as to why I'm not voting him.
Answer: Because you aren't the person I am/was trying to pressure. I was trying to pressure Imp, to get him to do a good play instead of active-lurking like it had appeared he had been(and still may be). And I only have me vote to pressure people with! :(

Alright, now for the sweep.

Ffffuuuuuu-
Of course there's too many little things I want to dig at for me to get all of them. Figures.

Top scum is actually Mr. Zero now, since I haven't been able to skim Imp's easily now that he's spoilered them. Right next to Imp, right up there. Deathsword and Persus are preliminary town thoughts, but I'm basically suspicious of everyone right now. You all feel scummy in some we or another. That's all for tonight, folks.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day
Post by: Tiruin on October 07, 2013, 11:06:42 pm

Quote from: Rolepgeek on October 07, 2013, 10:57:49 pm

Mostly Imp because she's been annoying me[...]

Get yer pronouns right. :I

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day
Post by: Imp on October 08, 2013, 04:29:47 am

@All things not-Rolepgeek, namely 'Where's that promised analysis of Mr.Zero's posts'

I'm delaying sharing that for now, I prefer not to explain why yet.

I have two (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4668842#msg4668842) questions (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4666745#msg4666745) directed towards Mr.Zero that I'd like to see answers of before I provide that analysis.

Whether he answers or not I will be providing my analysis before D1 ends.

@All things Rolepgeek:

I'm not tempted to pick this apart line by line and 'feed it to you'.  I'll keep my comments as vague, polite, and short as I can without risking losing their meaning.

I really have no desire to talk -to- Rolepgeek.  I understand I should question more.  I'll do so, and I'll do it in size14 font to make it distinct, but I'm talking about him, not to him, except for the stuff in that size font.  There, I feel slightly more comfortable now.

Said it before, say it again; I'll be pleased if anyone happens to want to take it upon themselves to do the scumhunting in regards to this so focusedly anti-imp player.

Then again,

Quote from: Rolepgeek on October 07, 2013, 10:57:49 pm

Huh. Thought there'd be more questions.

Rolepgeek:  Why?  You think anyone else really wants to talk to your attitude, or because of it, you?

None of the rest of you want to, huh?  You're not waiting for later because of any reason other than that you'd rather not either?  Not like I can blame you.  Maybe that anti-imp just happens to be anti-all-with-imp-focus.  Would that be a scum-tell, to be so unpleasant that no one really wants to interact with you?

Now I'd like to write off my and his differences as 'very different playstyles' (and earlier had, because it's comforting and I do like my comforts), but that's not going to successfully Scumhunt, especially if he happens to be one of the Scum.  If I -must-, I will dig into the pit of... I'm not going to currently describe this/him, but I trust my meaning is clear enough.

Quote from: Rolepgeek on October 07, 2013, 10:57:49 pm

Oh, and it got me pissed off as a player(OOC, so to speak) about how he was talking to Lukeinator. HEY IMP; don't tell people not to play the fucking game because you think they're playing badly. That's the point of a goddamn beginner's mafia.

Rolepgeek:  I quoted the OP and then applied portions of it that were being ignored by that player with pressure.  First time that's been done in a Mafia game, to your knowledge?

Why focus on my interactions in this direction with Luke?  Did you miss this, which happened -first-?

Quote from: Imp on September 27, 2013, 04:43:58 pm

@Squill:

Quote from: Squill on September 25, 2013, 03:32:41 pm

I'll make sure to do some questions at some point, but for now I'm just answering questions while I'm at my computer.

We've heard nothing from you in over 48 hours.  Are you actually interested and able to play?  If not, why have you not already requested a replacement, especially since we have one handy and apparently eager to get into his/her first game?

Feces, fool.  If you're going to tunnel on me, despite...

Quote from: Rolepgeek on October 07, 2013, 10:57:49 pm

Mostly Imp because he's been annoying me and as you could probably guess, I haven't been paying as much attention to the game as I'd like. Now that I've set myself on doing this

...at least attempt to use an illusion of scum hunting, rather than 'Imp makes me annoyed, whaa, so I'm going to use him as a verbal punching bag while occasionally interlacing my personal attacks with references to Scumhunting while occasionally admitting I'm just here to kick people around and otherwise not really paying much attention'.

Yawn.  In case my intentions towards Luke and Squill were opaque, it's sometimes called pressure.  My goal was not to drive either from the game (though I did know we had an apparently eager-to-play replacement who I happened to already know I wanted to be in a/many game(s) with, thus this would not be a particularly unfortunate result in my sights should it occur).  I used most of the tricks I know to attempt to increase interaction with and from both of those initially massively lurking players, 'spending' significant time and effort on this goal and releasing that pressure when it was achieved (in Squill's case) or I realized my goal was unachievable (Luke).  And I believe I did so in a highly pro-Town and 'least harmful for Mafia the Game overall and its current and hopefully returning someday players' fashion as well.  I deem this responsible play.

It seems interesting that Rolepgeek may be protesting, in this one area, only my aggressive, hostile tone combined with the pressure I used.  *snort*

Rolepgeek:  Pot calling the kettle black, much?  Got any cleaner glasses to see this game through?  Any of them happen to be rose colored?

Quote from: Rolepgeek on October 07, 2013, 10:57:49 pm

Oh wait! Darvi's question as to why I'm not voting him.
Answer: Because you aren't the person I am/was trying to pressure. I was trying to pressure Imp, to get him to do a good play instead of active-lurking like it had appeared he had been(and still may be). And I only have me vote to pressure people with! :(

Rolepgeek: Lie much?  Words don't pressure?  Your intense and intensely focused hostility is not actually a form of pressure to you?  Have you had your blood pressure checked recently, or are you afraid that visiting a doctor would raise questions about possible drug abuse?

---

---

---

Quote from: Rolepgeek on October 07, 2013, 10:57:49 pm

I do hope this counts as posting something with content.

Rolepgeek:  What purpose does this serve in your post?  Are you admitting that you are alternating your passive lurking with active lurking, and are checking to make sure that we buy this shit and to verify we are eager to swallow more of it?

"posting something with content"?  Sure he did.  Content of value to the game and its purpose?  Lets consider that.

Answer to Superblackcat:  I'm not really playing this game, and need more time.  Remind me because I might not be arsed to remember, cause I'm not really here to play it.

Answer to Persus13:  I'm not really playing this game, and need more time.  But that Imp, oh man!  I can wax on and on about his bad play, that I don't even bother to really read, earlier or recently.  Don't forget though, I'm not really playing this game and haven't been, so I really do need more time.

Answer to Imp:  Yay!  You're actually engaging me!  That's going to make bullying you more fun.  Good boy!  Here's some excuses, that's your reward.  Lets encourage you to engage me more, so I can get you -really- good next time.

Answer to Kleril:  Ahh, does everyone buy my BS?  Yeah, I'm a BSer, hehehe.

Answer to Darvi:  I'm just here to bully Imp.  My vote's on Imp because that makes my bullying behavior more excusable and understandable.  I don't care to pay any attention to you and no promises that I intend to focus on you at any point.

Quote from: Rolepgeek on October 07, 2013, 10:57:49 pm

Alright, now for the sweep.

Ffffuuuuuu-

Whoops, it's hard work trying to play this game and I'd really can't be arsed.  Lets make it look like I'm actually trying to do more than bully Imp though... Oh!  People wonder if Imp and Mr.Zero are scumbuddies.  That'll do!  Why Top Scum is Mr.Zero of course, for no reasons I need to give, just that it's really obvious he's Scum.  (I don't notice that not saying Imp is my top Scum makes it a wee bit obvious that I'm attacking Imp to attack, and not because I care if he's Scum or not)  Here. I'll pick a couple other people to claim as my top town and I won't give any reasons cause I'll just make them up later if I think I need to, and I'll say a few generic closing words that seem to suggest that I'm thinking and playing.

Quote from: Rolepgeek on October 07, 2013, 10:57:49 pm

*cracks knuckles*...(I'm noticing a theme here...)

You're not the only one.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day
Post by: Imp on October 08, 2013, 05:36:25 am

Quote from: Persus13 on October 07, 2013, 05:19:21 pm

why is your first piece of your anti-klelil argument is that he was buddying SBC?

Doh!  Persus13, when you say my "first piece of anti-klelil argument", are you referring to Behemoth (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4659525#msg4659525), or a different post?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day
Post by: Persus13 on October 08, 2013, 07:03:08 am

Quote from: Imp on October 08, 2013, 05:36:25 am

Quote from: Persus13 on October 07, 2013, 05:19:21 pm

why is your first piece of your anti-klelil argument is that he was buddying SBC?

Doh!  Persus13, when you say my "first piece of anti-klelil argument", are you referring to Behemoth (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4659525#msg4659525), or a different post?

I'm referring to Behemoth

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day
Post by: Imp on October 08, 2013, 07:19:33 am

Quote from: Persus13 on October 08, 2013, 07:03:08 am

Quote from: Imp on October 08, 2013, 05:36:25 am

Quote from: Persus13 on October 07, 2013, 05:19:21 pm

why is your first piece of your anti-klelil argument is that he was buddying SBC?

Doh!  Persus13, when you say my "first piece of anti-klelil argument", are you referring to Behemoth (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4659525#msg4659525), or a different post?

I'm referring to Behemoth

Thanks Persus!

Mr.Zero, a third question.  Persus13 asks me this.

Quote from: Persus13 on October 07, 2013, 05:19:21 pm

why is your first piece of your anti-klelil argument is that he was buddying SBC?

What do you think of this question, and what's he really asking?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day
Post by: Mr.Zero on October 08, 2013, 12:34:34 pm

Yeah guys. sorry for the lack of posts on my side but the forums ate 2 of em, they weren't huge but lenghty and since i'm a busy person i didn't have that much time to recreate them.

@SBC

Quote from: Superblackcat on October 05, 2013, 02:27:00 pm

Oh man, do I feel stupid. I thought this was a 7/2 game, and I just now, noticed this is a 9/2 game.

So now, let me clear things up. I only believe in the NL in a 7/2 game, as a 9/2 game, the chances of hitting a mafia is much higher, in a sense, because we get 2 days to lynch. Also, that means we can RL twice without much consequence.

Thus, I completely support Lynching today. Also, just saying, I don't think a 9/2 game is very balanced for the mafia.

You just did not. Looking at the game set-up is the first step of joining a Mafia, if it were in the beginning then sure. But a week or 2? have passed and you then say this... You shat on your shoe's. Washing it won't make the smell go away.

Also the underlined part.
Why would you say that? You wouldn't be bothered by it as town, i can see it as a good point in a Mafia-related discussion ( Not a mafia game) but it absolutely holds no value in the game itself.

Quote from: Superblackcat on October 05, 2013, 02:27:00 pm

@MrZero, I didn't vote you for giving your foses, I voted you for, as you can see in my post, not questioning anything Imp said.

I can't vote someone for... Not doing what I ask, I can for pulling out several scumtells when answering what I asked.

I'm pretty sure you didn't even read through my whole post, because you just pulled out tiny parts of it, and decided that was my whole post.

Lol, I like the underlined part as it applies to you as well on a more regular basis.

Quote from: Superblackcat on October 05, 2013, 02:27:00 pm

Quote

Quote from: Superblackcat on October 04, 2013, 06:50:46 pm
You seem to understand Imp very well... Might you be getting clarifications, or just frankly status updates with eachother... in a certain thing called Scum chat?

You two seems to be working together. It wasn't very apparent in the previous posts, but because of that post, I've noticed you guys have basically agreed on everything.

Totally, and you?

What do you mean by that? Do you agree that you guys are in Scum chat, Do explain exactly what you mean by "Totally and you?"

Also, what are you looking for me to answer.

Sarcasm and redirected the question at you, i should have put [sarcasm][/sarcasm] tags in it as i forgot that it's hard to transfer sarcastic comments over the Internet.

@Persus13

Quote

@Mr. Zero:
You said a while back you thought Rolepgeek was town. WHy?

I mentioned it in this Post (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4662560#msg4662560), and this bit to be specific.

Quote

Overly hostile? So... Since when is aggressive scum hunting a bad thing?The only party that doesn't benefit from aggressive scum hunting is the scum team, no? At least he IS doing some progress in the hunting, while SBC is trying to deflect/defend/strike back and concentrates more on getting the next 2 days NL's than trying to find scum today ( In the sense of the first mafia day).

By now my opinion has slightly changed over him, but i still believe that he's town-ish.

@Squill

Quote from: Squill on October 07, 2013, 05:59:29 pm

MrZero: I'm feeling a little bit less confident in him being town now. His posting is not too often, and doesn't seem to contain a whole lot of information, at least to me.

Yes, again. Pardon me, forum ate my post twice and i didn't have that much time to reconstruct it.

@Kleril

Quote from: kleril on October 07, 2013, 06:10:25 pm

@Zero[/size]:

Quote from: Mr.Zero on October 05, 2013, 01:20:12 pm

@Darvi, I will gladly answer every question you have if you show a clear indication that the question is directed at me.

Quote from: Darvi on October 04, 2013, 09:07:26 pm

Got any more reasons for your town read on RPG?

There's a question directed at you, and you blew it off. Now, answer it. RPG's had so little town-esque activity that I can't believe that you know something we don't. On top of that, you avoided answering the question.

I didn't blow it off at all, actually i didn't even truly acknowledge it due to unforeseen circumstances of the forum eating my posts. So where'd you get the idea that i blew it off?? Haven't i answered every question directed at me so far?  ( If no, then repost and i will get on it)

With answer i mean a response, thus not necessarily a result which satisfied the question giver.



Im going to do some sports now, when i get back i will continue reading and answer/ask more questions.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day
Post by: Squill on October 08, 2013, 02:15:07 pm

Quote from: kleril on October 07, 2013, 06:10:25 pm

Onto SBC: Smart move, but no. I've got to stand up to this. SBC's earlier attempts to try and get all buddy-buddy with me are most likely just to drive me further into the ground. I look scummy enough based on my bad play, and getting all this positive attention from the other top scum pick would make it look as if we were both scum, but I plead that this is not the case. There has been zero reason to support me, for any reason. My play's been shitty, and anyone taking that as scumtells, you're wrong, but justifiably so. SBC's approval of my play was trying to make me look scummier by proxy.

@kleril: If this was the case, then a town would not be so ridiculously defensive. A good town would realize something: If they got lynched, and flipped town, then SBC would be put in a pretty bad light. But even then, I haven't noticed this "buddy-buddy" stuff to me, and it seems like you are hugely exaggerating to try to flip suspicion off of you, and onto someone else. To me, it looks like a scum trying to defend themselves in panic, while at the same time trying to lynch someone else.

@All: Does anyone think that SBC was really sucking up to kleril? I didn't notice it personally, and even if it did happen, then kleril's lynch could be quite informative.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day
Post by: Teneb on October 08, 2013, 06:26:25 pm

Quote from: Imp on October 07, 2013, 02:16:03 am

Spoiler: Deathsword, last but probably not least... (click to show/hide)

Quote from: Deathsword on October 02, 2013, 09:57:20 am

Imp: What are you suspicions, besides rolepgeek (who, if I got it right, you are voting)?

Giggle giggle, again.

That was a hard one for a few days.  If those two are sure Scum (I mean Kleril and Superblackcat, in that order of suspicion just in case that wasn't blindingly clear already *blink blink*) then I didn't have any, just some people and it was more than starting to feel like that for me.

I'm a bit better now.  I'm kinda speculative about everyone again now, which is goodie.  Persus with his casual "I viewed Luke as town even before I got my role PM."  Mmm.  Yeah.  Kinda reminds me that Luke had been my -third- scummiest player.  Such a casual and easy to suconsciously accept thing to drop into the water.

For now, the holder of Luke's role seems to still have a lot of my suspicions.

Oh hey!  Deathsword, any chance you might be able to be a bit more active here too, when its not Tuesday/Thursday and such?

I know you already give us a lot, and I like it.  I just want more.  Show us more

Regarding activity, I try to post whenever I can. Which can be rather unpredictable since teachers keep re-scheduling tests and, starting tomorrow, I'll have to start working as well. Still, I'll try to place all I can or what catches my attention in posts, as well as the usual IC advice. This post will be content-light, however, due to how tired I am at the moment.

Quote from: Mr.Zero on October 05, 2013, 01:20:12 pm

@Deathsword: No offense but i've used quotes in (nearly) every of my posts, if you aren't even bothered to click on the quote number of the quoted part then i cannot help you.

I confused you with rolepgeek. Mistakes happen, please do not be offended or use agressive-seeming text when pointing out such errors.

{Rolepgeek: use quotes like the one above. Clicking the "quote" button on a post will auto-generate the link and poster's name for you}

Quote from: Mr.Zero on October 07, 2013, 02:55:38 am

IM NOT SURE BUT I THINK THE FORUM AT MY POST NOW,TWICE>

{Others have answered with their own ways to avoid it, my own involves merely selecting all text from the post and doing a simple ctrl+c. Should the internets eat my post, I'll open another one and paste the previously copied text on it.}

Quote from: Persus13 on October 05, 2013, 01:47:36 pm

Quote

Superblackcat, you are far too unconcerned with the lynch and using it. Why would you not want to use the town's greatest asset?

I assume your unvoting me if you are voting SBC?

{Voting for someone else counts as unvoting whatever your previous vote-target was. In some setups with multiple votes this may not be the case}

{Imp: regarding this post (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4669460#msg4669460), please do not use letters bigger than the standard size, especially for entire sentences or paragraphs.}

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day
Post by: Darvi on October 08, 2013, 06:33:17 pm

Quote from: Tiruin on October 07, 2013, 11:06:42 pm

Quote from: Rolepgeek on October 07, 2013, 10:57:49 pm

Mostly Imp because she's been annoying me[...]

Get yer pronouns right. :I

That's it, you're all it's to me now.

Quote from: Imp on October 07, 2013, 08:01:19 pm

Quote from: Darvi on October 07, 2013, 07:28:56 pm

{Any questions about the person being replaced amount to what's essentially role-fishing. The replacement doesn't know what the previous person was thinking and should say so. The only information they have about their predecessor is what their role tells them, and that should naturally stay secret. Basically, treat the new guy as if they had been playing the entire game.}

Obviously a person cannot tell us another's reasons, but is it fair to ask a replacement what they think of posts made by their predecessor?

No. It's not. They can either aknowledge whatever scumminess their predecessor had (which is self-incriminating), or they don't (which gets them accused of hiding information or somesuch). And besides, they shouldn't care about what their predecessor did. They already know their predecessor's alignment. They should care about what everybody else did.

Quote from: Superblackcat on October 07, 2013, 09:56:47 pm

@Darvi, I've already convinced myself of both kleril and MrZero, but I don't think they are partners, which makes my life difficult. I'm still keeping an eye out to see who is more scummy.

Is that a "I don't think they behave like partners" or "I don't think they are partners", period?

Quote

I agree that stats are not insanely important. But at some point, it's important, and even though people may say "math is a distraction" if you do the mathematically correct way, usually you would win, more often than you would lose.

No, it's not. You could just as much argue that it's unlikely that I'm scum because it only has a 2:7 chance of being the case. The same could be said about you. Or anybody else. And when you apply the same argument to every player in the game, it loses every meaning. Don't use statistics unless somebody has an ability along the lines of "you can check somebody's role, but it has a 25% chance of being inaccurate". And even then.

Quote from: Rolepgeek on October 07, 2013, 10:57:49 pm

Answer: Because you aren't the person I am/was trying to pressure. I was trying to pressure Imp, to get him to do a good play instead of active-lurking like it had appeared he had been(and still may be). And I only have me vote to pressure people with! :(

That sounds like a lazy excuse for tunneling.

Quote

Top scum is actually Mr. Zero now, since I haven't been able to skim Imp's easily now that he's spoilered them. Right next to Imp, right up there. Deathsword and Persus are preliminary town thoughts, but I'm basically suspicious of everyone right now. You all feel scummy in some we or another. That's all for tonight, folks.

What suspicions do you have against Mr.Z? Is Imp's behaviour from back then still reason enough to think it this suspicious? Why are these two town? And that last bit smells like vague handwaving. "Yeah I guess you're ALL suspicious. Somehow. I don't have anything better to say really." I can tell that's the case because it directly contradicts your town-picks right before.

Quote from: Mr.Zero on October 08, 2013, 12:34:34 pm

I didn't blow it off at all, actually i didn't even truly acknowledge it due to unforeseen circumstances of the forum eating my posts. So where'd you get the idea that i blew it off?? Haven't i answered every question directed at me so far?  ( If no, then repost and i will get on it)

No, you haven't, because you apparently have finally acknowledged my question while deftly avoiding giving me an actual answer.

Quote from: Squill on October 08, 2013, 02:15:07 pm

A good town would realize something: If they got lynched, and flipped town, then SBC would be put in a pretty bad light.

A ood town would realize that SBC would already be in a bad light and it wouldn't need to get lynched for it. The inverse might be true (somebody badly attacking somebody else, who then turns out to be scum, will look more like town unless the lynchee was obviously bad enough to warrant a bus.), but this way it doesn't. You don't look more scummy for badly attacking if your target turns out to be town, because the bad attacks speak fror themselves.

@All: Does anyone think that SBC was really sucking up to kleril? I didn't notice it personally, and even if it did happen, then kleril's lynch could be quite informative.
You lot all suck anyway, especially when your ribcages start expanding. Also that's a scumtell right there, unsubtly nudging us towards lynching kleril. Yeah it has three votes (I think) on it, so what. It's not a reason to go "hey we might want to lynch it and see what happens".

Also, no. I have a negative spot modifier so I wouldn't notice the broad side of a barn.


And with this, I'm failrly certain that Squill was lurking scum all along who's now trying to push for a kleril lynch. I'm still gonna watch Imp, though, naturally. And RPG can join the Haus.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day
Post by: zombie urist on October 08, 2013, 08:22:13 pm

Day has ends Thursday, October 10th at 9 PM.

Votecount
Imp - Rolepgeek
Squill - Darvi
Persus13 -
Rolepgeek -
kleril - Imp, Persus13, Squill
superblackcat - Deathsword, Mr.Zero
Mr.Zero - Kleril, superblackcat
Deathsword -
Darvi -

No lynch -
Not voting -

0 votes to extend. 4 needed to extend
0 votes to shorten 5 needed to shorten

WARNING: Votecounts are now done mostly by a program.

Lurker Tracker for this game (http://www.ocf.berkeley.edu/~azhou/projects/LT/zt.py?topic=130600&start=0&msg=4635015&sort=user&numreplace=2&replaced0=griffinpup&replacer0=Darvi&replaced1=Lukeinator&replacer1=Persus13&player0=Tiruin&label0=np&numlabel=1)

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day
Post by: Persus13 on October 08, 2013, 08:34:43 pm

Good to see activity from Deathsword and Mr. Zero.

@Kleril:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

 (referring to this post (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4668259#msg4668259)) First off, you quoted two of SBC's posts as claims of him buddying you, but I just see that as defending himself. Part of Imp's assertion is that you and SBC are scumbuddies, and by defending himself, SBC either has to some extent defend you or just disassociate with you as much as possible. He's doing the former and you are doing the latter. Secondly, that first post appears to be attacking Mr. Zero for appearing scummy. That's not buddying, that's scum-hunting in my book.

Thanks for your thoughts about my reasons I think you're scum, and for now, I'm going to unvote you for now, but I'm still going to keep an eye on you. However, you still seem pretty scummy. Also, going "Hey, imp stop attacking me and lynch SBC!" makes you seem pretty scummy to me.

@Imp:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I don't remember why I said I viewed Luke as town before I started playing. That was several days ago, and I don't remember my motivation for writing that sentence. The post that was in was me contemplating the possible reasons for Luke's actions, and was in response to role-fishing (your opinion of Luke helped influence my opinion of Luke by the way). However, at the time I was concerned about getting immediately lynched when I had just started playing, so I was focused on having at lest one post defending myself before I got more focused on the more important scum-hunting.

@Darvi:

Quote from: Darvi on October 07, 2013, 07:28:56 pm

Quote from: Persus13 on October 05, 2013, 11:28:54 pm

Quote from: Superblackcat on October 05, 2013, 11:18:22 pm

@Persus, Since you believe kleril is scum, who do you think his partner is?

Not completely sure. Imp's pretty sure your Kleril's partner, but there's a few people I can cross off. If Kleril's scum, then I'm pretty sure Imp isn't scum as the two have been arguing for pretty much the entire game. Otherwise the choices are pretty open.

You mention "a few people". At best, you actually list one. Who else would you cross off if your had to choose?

Uhhhh, shoot, you're right, besides Imp I can't really think of anyone else to cross off the list. Until recently, Mr. Zero and Squill seemed a top possibility, and Rolepgeek still seems like a possibility, but you and Deathsword could be either way. SBC seems less likely to be kleril's partner, as almost every attempt to connect the two is either a weak claim, out-of-context, or seems to be just how SBC and Kleril say stuff.

@Rolepgeek

Quote

HEY IMP; don't tell people not to play the fucking game because you think they're playing badly. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4669054#msg4669054)

Can you link to that post? Because Imp has 47 posts according to the lurker tracker, and I'm not going to hunt down that post. Or use quotes with links, please.

Also, Rolepgeek, if you could get active again with your promised analysis posts it would be nice.

@Imp: Seriously, your posts are big enough without using extra large font for a half a post.

Spoiler: Also: (click to show/hide)

Quote from: Persus13 on October 08, 2013, 07:03:08 am

Quote from: Imp on October 08, 2013, 05:36:25 am

Quote from: Persus13 on October 07, 2013, 05:19:21 pm

why is your first piece of your anti-klelil argument is that he was buddying SBC?

Doh!  Persus13, when you say my "first piece of anti-klelil argument", are you referring to Behemoth (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4659525#msg4659525), or a different post?

I'm referring to Behemoth

And when I say I'm refering to the Behemoth, I'm more specifically talking about the first part where you use something kleril said early on link him and SBC. i know you go on to say its scummy that Kleril followed up on it, but it's still attacking kleril for buddying, instead of scum-hunting

@ Zero: (referring to here) (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4669988#msg4669988) And once again I take issue with part of your anti-SBC argument. I agree that we should look at SBC's explanation with some doubt, but I haven't read the OP in a while, and I don't remember explicitly stating there were 9 players, just 7 beginners and 2 ICs. So shooting down instantly makes me wonder if you've already decided you're 100% certain SBC is scum and making the pieces fit where they don't.

@Squill:

Quote from: Squill on October 08, 2013, 02:15:07 pm

@kleril: If this was the case, then a town would not be so ridiculously defensive. A good town would realize something: If they got lynched, and flipped town, then SBC would be put in a pretty bad light.

I'm sorry, but I don't think I completely understand this, can you explain this more clearly?

@Darvi: I've noticed you've been voting people who have been attacking Kleril. This to try and scare off those trying to lynch your scum-buddy? Cause Squill may be bandwagoning, but he does seem to have some valid points. Also, there any special scum tells for ICs? Any previous games you'd recommend for someone interested in getting a read on your playstyle? Also, why are people making such a big deal about the Scum IC? He's not a behind the scenes puppeteer or anything right?

@Deathsword: There any special scum tells for ICs? Any previous games you'd recommend for someone interested in getting a read on your playstyle?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day
Post by: Persus13 on October 08, 2013, 08:36:26 pm

Oh, can you include a link to the Lurker tracker in either the OP or in the vote-counts?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day
Post by: Imp on October 08, 2013, 09:06:52 pm

Posting from work, it's incomplete.  I'll say the rest later.

Hey everyone!  We’ve currently got about 2 days on the clock again.  This seems to be the point where I go from feeling ‘oh, we got time’ to thinking ‘oh, we don’t really got time’.  I’ve learned a heck of a lot recently.  Loving the overall change in activity level and a few people have commented they’re trying to catch up, so I’ll be the first this time to vote to Extend, instead of just offering to supporting others’ requests in this direction.

Darvi, how the heck are we supposed to catch a squiggle such as yourself if you need catching?

Pick between Magnificent Bastard and Affable Evil – which one’s less like you and what are you doing to fix this?

Persus13’s interaction with us all, he sure seems to be quite a few things to me.  What direction(s) do you think his playstyle is leading us towards?  Do you think he seems to be a leader?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day
Post by: Rolepgeek on October 08, 2013, 10:04:36 pm

Posting to show I'm not ignoring this. Put it off too long to be able to post it tonight, but I've got the post saved on my computer. Will finish it and post it tomorrow. It has all my answers and such, and more.

Unless one of you knows how to copy/paste from it to my IPad, of course.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day
Post by: Superblackcat on October 08, 2013, 11:03:52 pm

@MrZ

Spoiler Below is What MrZero's Post contained of.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Quote

Quote from: Superblackcat on October 05, 2013, 02:27:00 pm
Oh man, do I feel stupid. I thought this was a 7/2 game, and I just now, noticed this is a 9/2 game.

So now, let me clear things up. I only believe in the NL in a 7/2 game, as a 9/2 game, the chances of hitting a mafia is much higher, in a sense, because we get 2 days to lynch. Also, that means we can RL twice without much consequence.

Thus, I completely support Lynching today. Also, just saying, I don't think a 9/2 game is very balanced for the mafia.

You just did not. Looking at the game set-up is the first step of joining a Mafia, if it were in the beginning then sure. But a week or 2? have passed and you then say this... You shat on your shoe's. Washing it won't make the smell go away.

Also the underlined part.
Why would you say that? You wouldn't be bothered by it as town, i can see it as a good point in a Mafia-related discussion ( Not a mafia game) but it absolutely holds no value in the game itself.

Quote from: Superblackcat on October 05, 2013, 02:27:00 pm
@MrZero, I didn't vote you for giving your foses, I voted you for, as you can see in my post, not questioning anything Imp said.

I can't vote someone for... Not doing what I ask, I can for pulling out several scumtells when answering what I asked.

I'm pretty sure you didn't even read through my whole post, because you just pulled out tiny parts of it, and decided that was my whole post.

Lol, I like the underlined part as it applies to you as well on a more regular basis.

Quote from: Superblackcat on October 05, 2013, 02:27:00 pm
Quote
Quote from: Superblackcat on October 04, 2013, 06:50:46 pm
You seem to understand Imp very well... Might you be getting clarifications, or just frankly status updates with eachother... in a certain thing called Scum chat?

You two seems to be working together. It wasn't very apparent in the previous posts, but because of that post, I've noticed you guys have basically agreed on everything.

Totally, and you?
What do you mean by that? Do you agree that you guys are in Scum chat, Do explain exactly what you mean by "Totally and you?"

Also, what are you looking for me to answer.

Sarcasm and redirected the question at you, i should have put [sarcasm][/sarcasm] tags in it as i forgot that it's hard to transfer sarcastic comments over the Internet.

Ok, It's quite easy for me to be confused, everytime I open this game, it says 7/7. I'm not used to ICs, There has never been ICs, in my life before this game. I thought there were 7 players. Sadly, this also means I never drew charts or anything with all the players in them.

Also, Except for the game before this one, every single game I've played thus far with 2 mafia, has been 7/2. I played a 9/2 game before this one on another forum. I was mafia, it was insanely sad that I won. As I'm good at math, and no matter how much you guys don't like math, It's there. There was over an 70% chance for town to win, if the cop outted day 2, town did not lynch anyone cop cleared, and town lynched scum when cop found scum. Otherwise, they mislynched, unless it was impossible. Of course the setup was different, cop could be protected by cop, no role seeker on mafia. I'm sure it will make this game a lot more balanced, but it was just an observation.

I have read every single post (except for Imp's long post with different fonts) after page 2, I mostly did not read page 1 or page 2.

You deflect an question that not applicable to me back to me without answering it? And as many other people pointed out... You deftly did NOT answer a lot of their questions.

If you would go through and answer them, or give us a good reason that you don't answer them... Well, I'm just going to say : ~Scummy~

No you have not answered every question, No there is too many for me to repost, Yes you can go back and find them.

@Imp, I will not torture my eyes to read through a long post with different sized fonts. I just won't. Please rewrite it or something, I can't stand it....

@Squill, Did you not read my post last page, or 2 pages ago, explaining why I supported kleril until now? (as you say, sucking up to him).

@Darvi, I doesn't make sense to me that they would be partners. There is no point for either of them to Bus each other. But Both of them are very scummy in my eyes.

Also, as Persus said, Why do you support kleril so? Does he not seem scummy with his more current posts? If not, why? If so, why are you supporting him?

Also, Why did you not respond to anything kleril said, even though I would say, are much more worthy of response than most of the things you responded to?

@Persus, I feel left out, I'm the only one you didn't talk to >: (

Why didn't you talk to me? Did you want me to hate you? ;-; (:P)

@RPG and MrZero , Hope you its get a lot more activity! :D

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day
Post by: Superblackcat on October 08, 2013, 11:04:41 pm

Also. Extend

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day
Post by: Imp on October 08, 2013, 11:37:48 pm

Quote from: Superblackcat on October 08, 2013, 11:03:52 pm

@Imp, I will not torture my eyes to read through a long post with different sized fonts. I just won't. Please rewrite it or something, I can't stand it....

Wow!  Gladly done.  And glad you asked for a rewrite, until then I'd just decided 'won't do that again', and never even thought that there'd be any reason for a rewrite. 

Quote from: Imp on October 08, 2013, 04:29:47 am

@All things not-Rolepgeek, namely 'Where's that promised analysis of Mr.Zero's posts'

I'm delaying sharing that for now, I prefer not to explain why yet.

I have two (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4668842#msg4668842) questions (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4666745#msg4666745) directed towards Mr.Zero that I'd like to see answers of before I provide that analysis.

Whether he answers or not I will be providing my analysis before D1 ends.

@All things Rolepgeek:

I'm not tempted to pick this apart line by line and 'feed it to you'.  I'll keep my comments as vague, polite, and short as I can without risking losing their meaning.

I really have no desire to talk -to- Rolepgeek.  I understand I should question more.  I'll do so, and I'll do it in size 14 font to make it distinct, but I'm talking about him, not to him, except for the stuff in that size font.  There, I feel slightly more comfortable now.

Said it before, say it again; I'll be pleased if anyone happens to want to take it upon themselves to do the scumhunting in regards to this so focusedly anti-imp player.

Then again,

Quote from: Rolepgeek on October 07, 2013, 10:57:49 pm

Huh. Thought there'd be more questions.

Rolepgeek:  Why?  You think anyone else really wants to talk to your attitude, or because of it, you?

None of the rest of you want to, huh?  You're not waiting for later because of any reason other than that you'd rather not either?  Not like I can blame you.  Maybe that anti-imp just happens to be anti-all-with-imp-focus.  Would that be a scum-tell, to be so unpleasant that no one really wants to interact with you?

Now I'd like to write off my and his differences as 'very different playstyles' (and earlier had, because it's comforting and I do like my comforts), but that's not going to successfully Scumhunt, especially if he happens to be one of the Scum.  If I -must-, I will dig into the pit of... I'm not going to currently describe this/him, but I trust my meaning is clear enough.

Quote from: Rolepgeek on October 07, 2013, 10:57:49 pm

Oh, and it got me pissed off as a player(OOC, so to speak) about how he was talking to Lukeinator. HEY IMP; don't tell people not to play the fucking game because you think they're playing badly. That's the point of a goddamn beginner's mafia.

Rolepgeek:  I quoted the OP and then applied portions of it that were being ignored by that player with pressure.  First time that's been done in a Mafia game, to your knowledge?

Why focus on my interactions in this direction with Luke?  Did you miss this, which happened -first-?

Quote from: Imp on September 27, 2013, 04:43:58 pm

@Squill:

Quote from: Squill on September 25, 2013, 03:32:41 pm

I'll make sure to do some questions at some point, but for now I'm just answering questions while I'm at my computer

We've heard nothing from you in over 48 hours.  Are you actually interested and able to play?  If not, why have you not already requested a replacement, especially since we have one handy and apparently eager to get into his/her first game?

Feces, fool.  If you're going to tunnel on me, despite...

Quote from: Rolepgeek on October 07, 2013, 10:57:49 pm

Mostly Imp because he's been annoying me and as you could probably guess, I haven't been paying as much attention to the game as I'd like. Now that I've set myself on doing this

...at least attempt to use an illusion of scum hunting, rather than 'Imp makes me annoyed, whaa, so I'm going to use him as a verbal punching bag while occasionally interlacing my personal attacks with references to Scumhunting while occasionally admitting I'm just here to kick people around and otherwise not really paying much attention'.

Yawn.  In case my intentions towards Luke and Squill were opaque, it's sometimes called pressure.  My goal was not to drive either from the game (though I did know we had an apparently eager-to-play replacement who I happened to already know I wanted to be in a/many game(s) with, thus this would not be a particularly unfortunate result in my sights should it occur).  I used most of the tricks I know to attempt to increase interaction with and from both of those initially massively lurking players, 'spending' significant time and effort on this goal and releasing that pressure when it was achieved (in Squill's case) or I realized my goal was unachievable (Luke).  And I believe I did so in a highly pro-Town and 'least harmful for Mafia the Game overall and its current and hopefully returning someday players' fashion as well.  I deem this responsible play.

It seems interesting that Rolepgeek may be protesting, in this one area, only my aggressive, hostile tone combined with the pressure I used.  *snort*

Rolepgeek:  Pot calling the kettle black, much?  Got any cleaner glasses to see this game through?  Any of them happen to be rose colored?

Quote from: Rolepgeek on October 07, 2013, 10:57:49 pm

Oh wait! Darvi's question as to why I'm not voting him.
Answer: Because you aren't the person I am/was trying to pressure. I was trying to pressure Imp, to get him to do a good play instead of active-lurking like it had appeared he had been(and still may be). And I only have me vote to pressure people with! :(

Rolepgeek: Lie much?  Words don't pressure?  Your intense and intensely focused hostility is not actually a form of pressure to you?  Have you had your blood pressure checked recently, or are you afraid that visiting a doctor would raise questions about possible drug abuse?

---

---

---

Quote from: Rolepgeek on October 07, 2013, 10:57:49 pm

I do hope this counts as posting something with content.

Rolepgeek:  What purpose does this serve in your post?  Are you admitting that you are alternating your passive lurking with active lurking, and are checking to make sure that we buy this shit and to verify we are eager to swallow more of it?

"posting something with content"?  Sure he did.  Content of value to the game and its purpose?  Lets consider that.

Answer to Superblackcat:  I'm not really playing this game, and need more time.  Remind me because I might not be arsed to remember, cause I'm not really here to play it.

Answer to Persus13:  I'm not really playing this game, and need more time.  But that Imp, oh man!  I can wax on and on about his bad play, that I don't even bother to really read, earlier or recently.  Don't forget though, I'm not really playing this game and haven't been, so I really do need more time.

Answer to Imp:  Yay!  You're actually engaging me!  That's going to make bullying you more fun.  Good boy!  Here's some excuses, that's your reward.  Lets encourage you to engage me more, so I can get you -really- good next time.

Answer to Kleril:  Ahh, does everyone buy my BS?  Yeah, I'm a BSer, hehehe.

Answer to Darvi:  I'm just here to bully Imp.  My vote's on Imp because that makes my bullying behavior more excusable and understandable.  I don't care to pay any attention to you and no promises that I intend to focus on you at any point.

Quote from: Rolepgeek on October 07, 2013, 10:57:49 pm

Alright, now for the sweep.

Ffffuuuuuu-

Whoops, it's hard work trying to play this game and I'd really can't be arsed.  Lets make it look like I'm actually trying to do more than bully Imp though... Oh!  People wonder if Imp and Mr.Zero are scumbuddies.  That'll do!  Why Top Scum is Mr.Zero of course, for no reasons I need to give, just that it's really obvious he's Scum.  (I don't notice that not saying Imp is my top Scum makes it a wee bit obvious that I'm attacking Imp to attack, and not because I care if he's Scum or not)  Here. I'll pick a couple other people to claim as my top town and I won't give any reasons cause I'll just make them up later if I think I need to, and I'll say a few generic closing words that seem to suggest that I'm thinking and playing.

Quote from: Rolepgeek on October 07, 2013, 10:57:49 pm

*cracks knuckles*...(I'm noticing a theme here...)

You're not the only one.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day
Post by: Imp on October 09, 2013, 01:19:45 am

Quote from: Rolepgeek on October 08, 2013, 10:04:36 pm

Unless one of you knows how to copy/paste from it to my IPad, of course.

Would emailing it to yourself work?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day
Post by: Imp on October 09, 2013, 03:47:51 am

Hey there Kleril!

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I know you’re still catching up.  There's no rush to answer any of this, but I wanted to talk to you and ask a few more questions of you.

Quote from: kleril on October 07, 2013, 06:10:25 pm

To start, I'm not sure how to deal with all this anti-me momentum that's been growing against me.

I haven't been talking to you much for a bit.  My conscious reasoning didn't include this...

Quote from: kleril on September 29, 2013, 08:40:15 pm

My lack of response was to try and let you react, and considering you've been more inquisitive rather than defensive over this, it has put me somewhat at ease in my suspicion.

...but I sure noticed those words quickly and felt they were important when I started to prepare this post to you, so it might have had some subconscious effect upon me.

You haven't really appeared inquisitive about my accusations.  You don't have any questions about what I said or meant?  Or how I interpreted your actions and words?

It's also clear to me that you haven't attacked me back, at -all-.  The closest to an attack, even the closest thing to a refutation of my accusations, comes in your post following Behemoth (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4660025#msg4660025).  The strongest negative reaction you express towards me is that I've played in a way that reveals your intended D2 lynch target to the Scum a day early.  The harshest reaction you express is "Use your head." and you say that in connection to how you would be deceptive from post one, not 5 or so pages into the game, if you were Scum.

You still appear to be trying to defend me too.  Most recently from Darvi...

Quote from: kleril on October 07, 2013, 06:10:25 pm

Quote from: Darvi on October 04, 2013, 09:07:26 pm

Imp is getting too comfortable with their picks. That sounds like scum pre-emptively deciding on the lynches because fuck scumhunting, you know you can trust them. Right?

The only pick Imp is sure of is me. Are they too comfortable with it? Yeah, but I'm partially at fault for that, and looking to change it. If this behaviour continues past D1, then something's up, but for now it seems excusable.

And while you have been defensive, it is not in some typical ways I'd expect, including your complete lack of attack back at me.  What are your reasons and the thoughts that drive them, for how you have been writing and reacting 'post behemoth', in general and also specifically towards me and my accusations? 


Also: Would you be willing to explain, as clearly as you can, your chain of observation and interpretation that lead to this mistake you have claimed?

Quote from: kleril on September 30, 2013, 08:50:38 pm

Alright, I figured out why my behavior has seemed so strange and unexplained. I screwed up and thought the vote Deathsword had placed was in fact a vote against him, and so when you voted for him after his, I thought you were placing a second vote against him. Please excuse my stupidity.

Though this is not my only concern about you, I am currently most interested in understanding what you saw and what you understood (thus why you said what you said and when you said it in regards to your mistake).  There's absolutely no need to use any judgments about yourself in explaining what you saw and what you thought, you can include that if you must but what I am asking to read is something like "when I saw (quote), I thought [your interpretation], and when I saw (quote) I thought [your interpretation], and I decided (intention and/or strategy) so I posted (quote).  But by all means include whatever details you believe will help me understand how to follow your reasoning, because that is what I am asking for help with.

A significant portion of my suspicion of you is that I cannot understand how to reach the same mistake you claim, even when I follow every post in the game, from the OP onwards - trying to find something I can (reasonably or even unreasonably mis)interpret that supports your stated interpretation and the events as they played out.  Unable to find that, I interpret your posts as lies, and then I re-evaluate everything again trying to find pro-Town intention or reasoning that might motivate that lie.  Unable to find that, I name(d) you Scum.

I don't like thinking that you are a liar - unless you actually are one, then I am utterly happy to.  Can you help me see the truth in your words?

By the way, I should mention - though I'm not talking about it (yet), I'm not ignoring that you are scumhunting, even now.  Or that your targets are varied.  Or that some people have been ignoring your questions, or unable to yet answer them despite having made some posts and answered other questions, or are somehow mysteriously missing questions coming from you.  I've also noticed some subtler things you've done in trying to get these non-answering people to answer - like waiting until someone else asks that person the same question you previously had, then when they do not answer it again you pick up the second questioner's question and challenge why it was never answered - without a word about your own earlier question.

What, people want links to this stuff?  It's right there in front of us all, no?  Sheesh.  That ain't his only recent Scumhunting either, just a nice subtle thing and interesting peek into what may be this player's humility and complexity of thought.

Quote from: kleril on October 04, 2013, 02:38:00 pm

@Mr. Zero:
What's Rolepgeek done to take the spot of top town, for you?

Quote from: kleril on October 07, 2013, 06:10:25 pm

@Zero[/size]:

Quote from: Mr.Zero on October 05, 2013, 01:20:12 pm

@Darvi, I will gladly answer every question you have if you show a clear indication that the question is directed at me.

Quote from: Darvi on October 04, 2013, 09:07:26 pm

Got any more reasons for your town read on RPG?

There's a question directed at you, and you blew it off. Now, answer it.  On top of that, you avoided answering the question.

What, you guys think I think I'm wrong about Kleril being Scum?  Not yet.

He can be all kinds of awesome and still be Scum.

If enough agree he's probably Scum, I'll see him go to the gallows with both smiles and tears, proud of our work that put him there (though the smile will be wan indeed, if he is proved Town).

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day
Post by: Imp on October 09, 2013, 05:50:16 am

This is to all, it regards some clues as to the basis of my interaction with Mr.Zero and what I suspected/still suspect forms the basis of his interaction back at me.

This is a fragment of what I've been holding the posting my overall analysis of Mr.Zero's play so far, specifically I have at last an explanation from Mr.Zero about what he meant with his 'cryptic answer'...  He was answering Cat directly, not my redirect of Cat's question, but he says enough of what I asked for.  I 'had issue' with trying to quote this normally because the formatting had already been altered, I tried to fix, then just threw up my hands and did it simpler.

---

Cat:  You seem to understand Imp very well... Might you be getting clarifications, or just frankly status updates with eachother... in a certain thing called Scum chat?

You two seems to be working together. It wasn't very apparent in the previous posts, but because of that post, I've noticed you guys have basically agreed on everything.

---

Mr.Zero:  Totally, and you?

---

Cat:  What do you mean by that? Do you agree that you guys are in Scum chat, Do explain exactly what you mean by "Totally and you?"

---

Mr.Zero:  Sarcasm and redirected the question at you, i should have put [sarcasm][/sarcasm] tags in it as i forgot that it's hard to transfer sarcastic comments over the Internet.

---

Cat could have easily asked me the same question, and how I interpreted Mr.Zero's answer to mean is very close akin to how I believe I would have answered it.  For that matter I wondered about answering it, then decided I didn't need to, and I did want to know Mr.Zero's answer.

My answer would have also mostly disregarded the actual question, which essentially is "are you two in Scumchat?".  What's actually being asked, to my interpretation, is why are we agreeing with each other/Why is there any impression of us working together? - after all, there's 4 parts to Cat's statement, and though the actual question is about Scumchat, all other three parts are about our apparent understanding of each other, agreement with each other, and teamwork.

Thus my answer would have approximately been (note it applies as of then):  Mr.Zero shows above average activity (typically a post a day, decent length, not just answering but also asking, examining responses, and I see evidence he is thinking and sharing his thoughts - and his expressed reasoning seems sensible and genuine), he's pointing out things that I also see and am concerned about as well as asking questions I find useful, challenging others in ways I would have been happy to, and getting information that I find useful, for example here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4637812#msg4637812), here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4640177#msg4640177), and here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4643041#msg4643041) all contain a range of neat interactions and reasoning. 

Additionally, he's being reasonable and cooperative in a positive for the game fashion (Example - I invited him to become more specific in his first question to me.  He did so, and in a fashion that allowed me to answer it with comfort.  D1 was drawing to a close.  He was one of the ones to seek extension, the first in fact when I was too unsure if one would be reasonable and so only offered to -support- if anyone else asked for one.  What, he didn't help anyone but me - does anyone find that suspicious?  Did anyone but me ask him/the group as a whole to?).

Why do we look like we're working together?  Why are we agreeing with each other?  Why do we appear to understand each other?  From my side, I answer that what he has said makes sense.  And compared to a large number of other players in the game, his behavior looks far less Scummy than most!  He is trying to do the job and putting effort and thought into it.  He appears to be working towards drawing other players out and challenging scumminess where he sees it - and so am I.  He responded acceptably to my initial interactions to him - quite acceptably in fact.  He appeared to accept my initial interactions with him as well.

I'm not done with him.  I don't think he's done with me.  But as of then, I saw no reason to make him my primary focus, or even a secondary one.  You all have surely noticed how I was spending my time instead.  And he was active.  I don't have to engage him directly and constantly to read him - and when I see something I dislike and have room in my brain to track that too, I can pick it up at any time.  None of these posts are ever going away, and even if I never see something that 'looks wrong', I like all of us have an ever-growing host of information to reconsider and then question from.

So what did his 'Totally.  You?' response back to Cat mean to me?  "Imp and I look like we're working together because we are.  We're putting effort into the game and frankly, I can understand at least enough of how she thinks and what she's doing to see value in her play.  How about you?  Why don't you also look like you're the same team as me and her?"

I have no problem with that answer, as of that time.  Far as I know, he might be Scum.  Lets pretend he is Scum for the purpose of this question:  How am I supposed to determine Scum like him from among choices like Griffinpup, Luke, Kleril, and Superblackcat?  The best I can do is the best I can do, and if he's Scum playing to look town, he was doing a great job against the background of a great many other players.  When I find a way to catch him, I'll do it.  And I appreciate all the help I can get, from him and the rest of the team, from anyone who's actually trying to find Scum, with or without skill.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day
Post by: Tiruin on October 09, 2013, 06:48:44 am

Quote from: Imp on October 09, 2013, 05:50:16 am

I 'had issue' with trying to quote this normally because the formatting had already been altered, I tried to fix, then just threw up my hands and did it simpler.

:O

Formatter, to the rescue!

{See the toolbar when you press the Reply option in the thread? There will be lots of pictures and buttons. Right next to what may be a radioactive sign [6 triangles inscribed in a circle, with half being black and half being yellow] to the left of it is a textbox-ish thingy. It is the 'insert quote' button.

You could either note down the reply # [which is the tag of the post no matter what forum formatting you use, let's poke at Reply #248 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4671954#msg4671954)] or say something then link it just like I did back here, and then highlight, then copy-paste what is needed. The link provides the passage, the quotes you do provide what you're poking at.

Just note that directly copy-pasting removes any and all formatting done, like the one below had to be manually blue'd.

Quote

Cat:  You seem to understand Imp very well... Might you be getting clarifications, or just frankly status updates with eachother... in a certain thing called Scum chat?

Also on first glance it seems like you suspect yourself here. The Insert Quote button is your friend when it comes to stabbing out of context~

Do not quote mine, by the way.} :P

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day
Post by: Mr.Zero on October 09, 2013, 09:23:51 am

@Squill

Quote from: Squill on October 08, 2013, 02:15:07 pm

@All: Does anyone think that SBC was really sucking up to kleril? I didn't notice it personally, and even if it did happen, then kleril's lynch could be quite informative.

Sorry, but what do you mean by sucking up?


@Imp

Quote from: Imp on October 08, 2013, 07:19:33 am

Quote from: Persus13 on October 08, 2013, 07:03:08 am

Mr.Zero, a third question.  Persus13 asks me this.

Quote from: Persus13 on October 07, 2013, 05:19:21 pm

why is your first piece of your anti-klelil argument is that he was buddying SBC?

What do you think of this question, and what's he really asking?

The question is ok, buddying can be seen as a form of scumiminess. The question is probably the following: Why did you pick A first? And not B,C,D,etc.
If i were asked this question i would've responded with this. :" It was the most obvious scum sign at that time, so i decided to pursue it in an attempt to see if he's scum."

@persus13

Quote from: Persus13 on October 08, 2013, 08:34:43 pm

@ Zero: (referring to here) (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4669988#msg4669988) And once again I take issue with part of your anti-SBC argument. I agree that we should look at SBC's explanation with some doubt, but I haven't read the OP in a while, and I don't remember explicitly stating there were 9 players, just 7 beginners and 2 ICs. So shooting down instantly makes me wonder if you've already decided you're 100% certain SBC is scum and making the pieces fit where they don't.

I'm not 100% certain, you can't unless he/she get's lynched and flips whatever you predicted. Though i'm positive he's leaning to the scum side.

Regarding the set-up. Listen, when you decide to join something new, you first start gathering information and reading whatever is provided. right? I did as a refresher and picked up some knowledge along the way. What i don't like about his reasoning is that he assumed things. Why? There is no reason to assume stuff if you would have red the OP in the first place. It's all there. Also i believe that the question was raised regarding the participation of the IC's.

In the game you can assume stuff, but eventually you will have to provide evidence. You can't say
"I ASSUME X is scum, so i vote for him."

Here is a quote of the OP, you can find it at "Notes about the IC"

Quote

The ICs are here solely to teach new players how to play, but remember, they are also players in the game

See the bolded part? It doesn't take a mathematical genius to figure out town/scum ratio in our set-up.

So ESSENTIALLY. For the first week or two, he active lurked, with little to no scum hunting. Pushing his NL to the wrong set-up while the information was there from the beginning.


More to come when i get back home.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day
Post by: Superblackcat on October 09, 2013, 10:18:47 am

MrZero, yes I skimmed through the OP, yes I did not read most of page 1 and 2.


Also, thanks for the return in activity after 3 days.

@Imp, The reason why I posed that question to MrZero, was because he accepted your reasoning, some of the messiest ones, some of the ones I don't think made sense, without a second thought, repost, or even highlighting what part he liked about it. He just said: (not quoted) I think kleril because of what imp just said in the super post. He has been active lurking the whole game: answering questions people pose to him, and then asking questions very much similar to yours. He has had actual activity and scum hunting. But most of his activity has been lurk.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day
Post by: Mr.Zero on October 09, 2013, 10:58:55 am

Quote from: Superblackcat on October 09, 2013, 10:18:47 am

MrZero, yes I skimmed through the OP, yes I did not read most of page 1 and 2.


Also, thanks for the return in activity after 3 days.

@Imp, The reason why I posed that question to MrZero, was because he accepted your reasoning, some of the messiest ones, some of the ones I don't think made sense, without a second thought, repost, or even highlighting what part he liked about it. He just said: (not quoted) I think kleril because of what imp just said in the super post. He has been active lurking the whole game: answering questions people pose to him, and then asking questions very much similar to yours. He has had actual activity and scum hunting. But most of his activity has been lurk.

what? Did you 'TROUGHROUGHLY' read this (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4669988#msg4669988) as well?

That was.... yesterday. Holy shit maths is hard. You are just too sloppy, get workin on it.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day
Post by: Imp on October 09, 2013, 02:07:43 pm

Here's the second question I was waiting for.

Quote from: Mr.Zero on October 09, 2013, 09:23:51 am

Quote from: Imp on October 08, 2013, 07:19:33 am

Quote from: Persus13 on October 08, 2013, 07:03:08 am

Mr.Zero, a third question.  Persus13 asks me this.

Quote from: Persus13 on October 07, 2013, 05:19:21 pm

why is your first piece of your anti-klelil argument is that he was buddying SBC?

What do you think of this question, and what's he really asking?

The question is ok, buddying can be seen as a form of scumiminess. The question is probably the following: Why did you pick A first? And not B,C,D,etc.
If i were asked this question i would've responded with this. :" It was the most obvious scum sign at that time, so i decided to pursue it in an attempt to see if he's scum."


More to come when i get back home.

Between having no time just now and still waiting for another question to be answered, I'll keep this short.

Quote from: Superblackcat on October 09, 2013, 10:18:47 am

@Imp, The reason why I posed that question to MrZero, was because he accepted your reasoning, some of the messiest ones, some of the ones I don't think made sense, without a second thought, repost, or even highlighting what part he liked about it. He just said: (not quoted) I think kleril because of what imp just said in the super post. He has been active lurking the whole game: answering questions people pose to him, and then asking questions very much similar to yours. He has had actual activity and scum hunting. But most of his activity has been lurk.

Actually, now that Mr.Zero's provided his interpretation too, I'll say a couple more fast things now - What Persus13 identified as my first point of anti-Kleril evidence, 'buddying'  - particularly Kleril buddying SBC isn't the first point I tried to make.  That's actually my final point, discussed in the end of my case on Cat, where I reach the point of having decided to evaluate both of the (to me) high-probability Scum for links.  After getting quite excited about what Cat said about Kleril in his top FOS/Town post, my argument circled back to Kleril and noted that his first weak prod was to Cat, never followed up on even after questioning (that was part of my initial discussion of that as Scummy, but my initial discussion wasn't concerned with that being buddying Cat), and was the only evidence I could see of a link of buddying from Kleril to Cat.  I don't have time to explain my Kleril concerns better right now, but that'll come really soon now that y'all have spent a few days helping me understand how confusing my presentation style was.

I didn't mean to be confusing about my points in Behemoth, and I didn't intentionally set traps for other Scum [singular or plural] in my laying out of problems with everything Kleril (other than anything provokes reactions or not, and reactions or not are always useful).

But before I clarified my actual argument, I most certainly did want to see Mr.Zero's opinion first.  I actually expected a much more accurate interpretation, in regards to what I actually meant.  I expected Mr.Zero to say something along the lines of 'You misunderstand the argument and that's not my first point", and I am a bit shocked to hear Mr.Zero call Kleril buddying Cat "most obvious scum sign at that time" because I absolutely don't see it as one.  In fact, I'd place Kleril buddying Cat as the weakest support of all for Kleril being Scum, both in general and in Behemoth, and one that's 100% contingent on Cat not being Scummy, but being real Scum, as well as on Kleril being not scummy but real Scum too.  It's in the category of 'if I'm right about both of these, then some link might be there, is it?  Possibly, here's the evidence that supports it, such things are subtle but if they are both Scum, this does nothing to make me doubt my suspicions of them both.' 

Thanks for all the patience and help understanding and seeing stuff, people, I appreciate it and need it!

Though wow, you've all been really patient and calm about what more than one player has politely said 'this doesn't really make sense'.  I'll try to make it much more clear tonight.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day
Post by: Squill on October 09, 2013, 03:12:45 pm

Quote from: Darvi on October 08, 2013, 06:33:17 pm

@All: Does anyone think that SBC was really sucking up to kleril? I didn't notice it personally, and even if it did happen, then kleril's lynch could be quite informative.
You lot all suck anyway, especially when your ribcages start expanding. Also that's a scumtell right there, unsubtly nudging us towards lynching kleril. Yeah it has three votes (I think) on it, so what. It's not a reason to go "hey we might want to lynch it and see what happens".

Also, no. I have a negative spot modifier so I wouldn't notice the broad side of a barn.


And with this, I'm failrly certain that Squill was lurking scum all along who's now trying to push for a kleril lynch. I'm still gonna watch Imp, though, naturally. And RPG can join the Haus.

Quote from: Darvi on October 08, 2013, 06:33:17 pm

Quote from: Squill on October 08, 2013, 02:15:07 pm

A good town would realize something: If they got lynched, and flipped town, then SBC would be put in a pretty bad light.

A ood town would realize that SBC would already be in a bad light and it wouldn't need to get lynched for it. The inverse might be true (somebody badly attacking somebody else, who then turns out to be scum, will look more like town unless the lynchee was obviously bad enough to warrant a bus.), but this way it doesn't. You don't look more scummy for badly attacking if your target turns out to be town, because the bad attacks speak fror themselves.

I'm not quite sure I follow. Could you maybe restate some of the wording from the second post? While I don't think SBC's in the best light, I was stating that kleril used what seemed to me like faulty logic. It looks very much to me that kleril was put under pressure, and cracked and tried to pass on as much suspicion as possible to the person who was the second highest suspicion wise. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I wasn't actually stating that SBC's is trying to suck up to kleril. I was saying that if SBC was trying to pretend to be overly friendly to kleril, that doesn't change the fact that kleril has been scummy, it is just a bit more evidence against SBC if kleril turned out to be right.

This seems like a sound argument to me, could you actually explain how it's not?

Quote from: Mr.Zero on October 09, 2013, 09:23:51 am

@Squill

Quote from: Squill on October 08, 2013, 02:15:07 pm

@All: Does anyone think that SBC was really sucking up to kleril? I didn't notice it personally, and even if it did happen, then kleril's lynch could be quite informative.

Sorry, but what do you mean by sucking up?

I mean trying to appear to be friendly or especially sycophantic towards someone. Kleril was saying that SBC, one of several people's "likely to be mafia" picks, was attempting to be friendly towards kleril to destroy kleril's reputation.

Quote from: Superblackcat on October 08, 2013, 11:03:52 pm

@Squill, Did you not read my post last page, or 2 pages ago, explaining why I supported kleril until now? (as you say, sucking up to him).

@ SBC and @Darvi: I do not see kleril's view on SBC's behavior, I'm just saying that even if kleril's view was as obvious as he says, his logic is still faulted. This was a largely hypothetical scenario, at least to me.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day
Post by: Persus13 on October 09, 2013, 03:41:47 pm

Quote from: Imp on October 09, 2013, 02:07:43 pm

-snip-

Sorry, but you to be confusing my question.

My quuestion was this:

Quote

why is your first piece of your anti-klelil argument is that he was buddying SBC?

First of, I'm referring to the first piece of the part of the Behemoth (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4659525#msg4659525) where you lay out your argument against Kleril and his links to SBC. Specifically THE FIRST REASON you attack Kleril:

Quote

1)   He was the first to speak of something odd about Superblackcat’s unusual first post, saying “Interesting choice of pronoun there, bud. There something we should know?”  Kleril never followed up on this – never even answered Mr.Zero’s “Even though you asked a little bit more than blackcat, you didn't actively pursue this. Why so? Aren't you curious?”

You start off by mentioning a case of buddying, and by focusing on the fact that kleril didn't follow up about it, are implying it's buddying insteead of an accusation or an attack. Now the post where I asked this question was here:

Quote from: Persus13 on October 07, 2013, 05:19:21 pm

Quote from: Imp on October 07, 2013, 02:15:08 am

My current take on 'others buddying me'... as well as on 'me buddying others':]

I don't protest players getting chummy with me (yet - I may learn to, but for now I believe I can use it just like I can use any other interaction).

So if you don't have problems with buddying why is your first piece of your anti-klelil argument is that he was buddying SBC? Also, what's your opinion of Mr. Zero's odd accusation (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4662560#msg4662560) of SBC buddying Kleril but, as I pointed out earlier, when you look at the context seems more understandable?(as I do here) (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4662673#msg4662673).

If you notice, you took my question out of context since I was relating a piece of your argument to kleril to what you had stated your stance on buddying was, and then pointing out something I regarded as an odd buddying accusation by another player you said you agreed with given your stance of buddying. While your answer helped answer part of my question, it didn't completely answer it and got some facts wrong because you answered it out of context.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day
Post by: Superblackcat on October 09, 2013, 05:49:45 pm

MrZero, If you take the time of that post, and subtract the last of your post that was not "OH NOES MY POST GOT EATEN" you get 3 days ;). I had not been able to thank you for returning until then. So i thanked you then.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day
Post by: Superblackcat on October 09, 2013, 05:51:52 pm

@ Squill, Thanks for the clarification, I thought you meant I was sucking up to him.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day
Post by: kleril on October 09, 2013, 06:33:23 pm

Throwing down a request for an extend due to impending midterms. Should have a ton of time this weekend to address everything that's happened in the past day or two.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day
Post by: Darvi on October 09, 2013, 06:56:34 pm

Quote from: Persus13 on October 08, 2013, 08:34:43 pm

@Darvi: I've noticed you've been voting people who have been attacking Kleril. This to try and scare off those trying to lynch your scum-buddy? Cause Squill may be bandwagoning, but he does seem to have some valid points. Also, there any special scum tells for ICs? Any previous games you'd recommend for someone interested in getting a read on your playstyle? Also, why are people making such a big deal about the Scum IC? He's not a behind the scenes puppeteer or anything right?

I'm not voting for people who suspect kleril. Not intentional that is, because, as you'll find, almost everybody (well, at least half of them) in the game has a bone to pick with it, so it's nearly inevitable . (Also, I never made that connection, but that's neither here nor there).

I'm not saying that it's a coincidence, though. Scum like an easy lynch, which it undoubtedly is. Much less work for them to do. Unfortunately, other peoples also like easy lynches, so you have to look at how they go about these votes. Scum gets lazy and complacent when they get an easy lynch, which is what I was judging people by. Imp got too sure of its scumpicks, as if it was not going to budge on its decisions, to the point of barely paying attention to other players. Squill, on the other hand, tried suggesting lynching kleril for what basically amounts to "lets lynch it and see what happens", which pushed it from "unhelpful" to "scummy". I also noticed that he said the same thing earlier (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4668216#msg4668216), while saying that he wasn't sure kleril was scum. While things may have changed, it's highly likely it doesn't vote kleril because it thinks it's scum, but because they just want to see it hang.

Quote from: Imp on October 08, 2013, 09:06:52 pm

Darvi, how the heck are we supposed to catch a squiggle such as yourself if you need catching?

You figure it out. Try a better net. Maybe a bait? They say honey is better than vinegar, but I love the stuff. I really dunno, I never tried to catch a Darvi. Usually I jus' kill 'em on sight.

Quote

Pick between Magnificent Bastard and Affable Evil – which one’s less like you and what are you doing to fix this?

The latter. I only do evil if it benefits me, there's nothing affable about me, and I don't plan on changing that. What is the point of this question anyway?

Quote

Persus13’s interaction with us all, he sure seems to be quite a few things to me.  What direction(s) do you think his playstyle is leading us towards?  Do you think he seems to be a leader?

I don't think. That much, at the least, should be known by now. And I do hope it doesn't become a leader. Because that requires everybody else to be sheeple, and everybody playing after one person's fiddle only results in scumwins because manipulating town is what scum does. You're individuals and you should behave that way, dammit.

Quote from: Superblackcat on October 08, 2013, 11:03:52 pm

@Darvi, I doesn't make sense to me that they would be partners. There is no point for either of them to Bus each other. But Both of them are very scummy in my eyes.

That is a problem. They cannot be both scum and not be partners. So you better try to get your reads straight because as it is now, should one of them flip as scum, it looks like you will dismiss the other one as town because it didn't look like the other guy's partner.

I suggest you drop the assumption that they cannot be partners. You should judge them by their individual scumminess, not by how you think they're connected. Which, I assume, is a point I already made before. You cannot make assumptions that scum wouldn't be willing to bus each other.

Quote

Also, as Persus said, Why do you support kleril so? Does he not seem scummy with his more current posts? If not, why? If so, why are you supporting him?

I do not support it, I am giving other people shit for stuff they did. See above.

Quote

Also, Why did you not respond to anything kleril said, even though I would say, are much more worthy of response than most of the things you responded to?

I try not to respond to stuff that doesn't directly involve me and that I don't feel require an immediate response on my part i.e. stuff that not everybody else is already nattering about. With eight people, it gets easy to get lost in the clusterfuck, and with how long it takes writing my posts, I try to not waste more time than necessary. Which is why most of my interactions have been with you and Imp, with the occasional oddball towards others who happen to stand out. Which, in turn, often have been people who have committed obvious faux-pas, I guess. I'm trying to stay focused on ICing, after all.
Also, the entire argument is just a blurry mess to me, where one side shouts at the other incoherently because they're utterly convinced they're in the right (Much like politics, really.), so I haven't really paid attention to it. I figured I'd save that for day 2 when the field's cleared up a bit.

So, you say it's scummy, so obviously you have been paying attention to it. Please enlighten me and tell me where it was being scummy and how.

Quote from: Squill on October 09, 2013, 03:12:45 pm

I'm not quite sure I follow. Could you maybe restate some of the wording from the second post? While I don't think SBC's in the best light, I was stating that kleril used what seemed to me like faulty logic. It looks very much to me that kleril was put under pressure, and cracked and tried to pass on as much suspicion as possible to the person who was the second highest suspicion wise. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I wasn't actually stating that SBC's is trying to suck up to kleril. I was saying that if SBC was trying to pretend to be overly friendly to kleril, that doesn't change the fact that kleril has been scummy, it is just a bit more evidence against SBC if kleril turned out to be right.

This seems like a sound argument to me, could you actually explain how it's not?

I didn't talk about your argument. I was talking about that one assumption that is wrong because town doesn't need to get lynched or killed to let the other person look bad. It does that to itself, usually. And either way, only because somebody flips town doesn't mean that everybody opposing them looks scummy. You can look better for lynching scum (if it wasn't an obvious bus), but lynching town can just as well simply be bad playing. TL;DR I wasn't arguing, I was pointing out how that was a faulty statement. I guess I should have put that in my [IC voice], because that was mostly intended to be informative, and you really shouldn't judge somebody by the town alignment of their targets.

Quote

@ SBC and @Darvi: I do not see kleril's view on SBC's behavior, I'm just saying that even if kleril's view was as obvious as he says, his logic is still faulted. This was a largely hypothetical scenario, at least to me.

I never addressed kleril's logic, or argued against your interpretation of it. Except perhaps for the part that assumes that the other person's townness had any influence on the outcome.

Quote from: kleril on October 09, 2013, 06:33:23 pm

Throwing down a request for an extend due to impending midterms. Should have a ton of time this weekend to address everything that's happened in the past day or two.

Hasn't this game been extended, like, ten times already?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day
Post by: Squill on October 09, 2013, 07:43:47 pm

Quote from: Darvi on October 09, 2013, 06:56:34 pm

Squill, on the other hand, tried suggesting lynching kleril for what basically amounts to "lets lynch it and see what happens", which pushed it from "unhelpful" to "scummy". I also noticed that he said the same thing earlier (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4668216#msg4668216), while saying that he wasn't sure kleril was scum. While things may have changed, it's highly likely it doesn't vote kleril because it thinks it's scum, but because they just want to see it hang.

I didn't do it to "see what happens." This post (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4668259#msg4668259) just struck me as particularly scummy, and I was convinced where I wasn't before. If that does not seem scummy to you, then could you tell me why?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day
Post by: Rolepgeek on October 09, 2013, 09:59:09 pm

No...no, no, shit, I can't do it. I can't get the time and I'm getting too emotional to play. Well, that, and I can't get into the right mindset. I can't look deeply into posts, all I can do is stare at them. It's frustrating. I'm gonna have to ask for a replacement, sorry guys. Should have done this a while ago. I'll still answer questions and such, I just...I can't work up the motivation. Sorry. Unvote.

I think I'll try to play Mafia when I don't have other games going on too. Should help me settle in one mindset and stay there.

To answer the questions directed at me real quick, though:

Top Towns and FoSs were, like I said, preliminary. I had said Mr. Zero because at the time I thought I'd spotted a post he'd made that had raised my hackles, but I can't find it now. And I can't get a good FoS anymore because of what I said above. I can't actually READ the posts in the right way. I'm not making connections and piecing it together in my head, probably because I was gone for so long. Not even sure about Imp anymore because as I've been scanning back and forth, she's not asking asinine questions anymore or taking things out of context(nowhere near as much, at least; the quote-editing she does is still frustrating). Right now...from what I remember, Squill because of how lurky he's been, little content in his posts when he does, what Darvi said about the kleril lynch, and not trying to ask many questions or pressure new people. And nnnnnnn...superblackcat. Holy crap, I just realized. The post he had right before mine was the one I thought was Mr Zero's. Probably. I can't really tell, and I thought it had been on page 15. Certainly looks scummy to me though;

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Quote from: Superblackcat on October 07, 2013, 09:56:47 pm

Congratulations kleril, you just left Imp in the dust on the Scum-o-meter.

If you have bothered to read about 3 of my posts, you would see that first, There was NO buddying done towards you, in fact... I argued SEVERELY against any buddying. Second, "I agree with kleril" was indeed very vague, and was cleared up through atleast 3 posts containing the SAME information because I didn't think some people saw it through walls of text. Third, I did not think you were scum, until you replied to the behemoth, and even then, I defended you because I saw that a lot of the accusations had to do with ME acting scummy at the beginning of the game. I then attacked MrZ because of his pure lack of reasoning, and how easily he accepted things others said. As much as I like other people's opinions, I take them all with a grain of salt, he embraced Imp's without any restriction.

That made me think you were scummy, then you continue on to "I'm sorry I've been scummy, it's inexcusable but you guys are wrong thinking I am scummy, in fact, lets just make this all SBC's fault, and vote MrZ". I supported you because you made a lot of the mistakes I made at the beginning, I continued to support you after you attacked me, because it was a valid option, even if you were town, to get yourself out of the predicament. Sadly, I don't support you anymore. I am very tempted to vote you instead of MrZ, but let's see how this plays out.

Next, What is your reason's for voting MrZ? Blowing off one question? He already said he had stuff written up, but it got deleted. It seems like you aren't even taking the time to SKIM through all the posts. Sadly, I do kind of believe Imp that you are scum.
 

---

On Squill: he was my top town pick, because as Imp said with MrZero, he was mostly down the middle of the line. He said nothing that was actually scummy, and seemed like a mostly busy, putting some thought into it, but not too much, mafia player.

---

@Darvi, I've already convinced myself of both kleril and MrZero, but I don't think they are partners, which makes my life difficult. I'm still keeping an eye out to see who is more scummy.

My second question was more of a "troll" question in hopes of one of the mafia leaking a "yes".


I agree that stats are not insanely important. But at some point, it's important, and even though people may say "math is a distraction" if you do the mathematically correct way, usually you would win, more often than you would lose.

---

I believe that the way Luke talked should not be put against persus. Luke's way of talking, because of how overwhelmed he was, could signify that he was either town of scum.

IF I missed anything, could you guys please repost the question, or lead me to it. I think I hit everything, but I could've mis-skimed something.

The interactions with SBC seem like he's really attempting to distance himself and reacting very negatively to being accused of being scum. Town doesn't care about being lynched, as long as they can help find scum. Scum cares. And then, somewhat contrary from what I can see, acts as though Klerils's vote for Mr Zero is a scumtell, whilst simultaneously giving his personal reasons for voting him. And then the 'convinced myself' comment. I hate to rag on semantics, but that just seems like a bad thing to do; ending up focused on just two people without considering others, and believing wholy that they are the scum.
By the way, that's what I meant when I said I was suspicious of everyone. I know I'm very fallible, so I try to keep an open mind as to who's the scum.
Top town...Deathsword, I think, still, since his posts have plenty of good activity and scum-hunting from what I can tell when he posts, and Darvi, I think, for similar reasons, though he's more active. May be that he fits my definition of scum-hunting better is all, though.

Other responses.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Quote from: Darvi on October 08, 2013, 06:33:17 pm

Quote from: Rolepgeek on October 07, 2013, 10:57:49 pm

Answer: Because you aren't the person I am/was trying to pressure. I was trying to pressure Imp, to get him to do a good play instead of active-lurking like it had appeared he had been(and still may be). And I only have me vote to pressure people with!

That sounds like a lazy excuse for tunneling.

Quote

Top scum is actually Mr. Zero now, since I haven't been able to skim Imp's easily now that he's spoilered them. Right next to Imp, right up there. Deathsword and Persus are preliminary town thoughts, but I'm basically suspicious of everyone right now. You all feel scummy in some we or another. That's all for tonight, folks.

What suspicions do you have against Mr.Z? Is Imp's behaviour from back then still reason enough to think it this suspicious? Why are these two town? And that last bit smells like vague handwaving. "Yeah I guess you're ALL suspicious. Somehow. I don't have anything better to say really." I can tell that's the case because it directly contradicts your town-picks right before.

I hope I answered the latter question a bit better up above. The former question, I would have to agree with that, but that's not what it is. It's a lazy excuse for me being lazy. If I was more active, like I was last game, I would hope to be dealing with at least 4-5 people and pressuring them. But basically, the reason is that I wanted to have pressure on Imp more than words, since she can obviously handle that pressure just fine, and return it in kind.

Quote from: Imp on October 08, 2013, 04:29:47 am

@All things Rolepgeek:

I'm not tempted to pick this apart line by line and 'feed it to you'.  I'll keep my comments as vague, polite, and short as I can without risking losing their meaning.

It was pretty impolite. So was mine, to a point, and I apologize for that, but yours was quite a bit worse.

Quote from: Imp on October 08, 2013, 04:29:47 am

Quote from: Rolepgeek on October 07, 2013, 10:57:49 pm

Huh. Thought there'd be more questions.

[Rolepgeek:  Why?  You think anyone else really wants to talk to your attitude, or because of it, you?[/size]

No. I thought there'd be more questions because I figured people would rag on me more for not being active enough.

Quote from: Imp on October 08, 2013, 04:29:47 am

Quote from: Rolepgeek on October 07, 2013, 10:57:49 pm

Oh, and it got me pissed off as a player(OOC, so to speak) about how he was talking to Lukeinator. HEY IMP; don't tell people not to play the fucking game because you think they're playing badly. That's the point of a goddamn beginner's mafia.

Rolepgeek:  I quoted the OP and then applied portions of it that were being ignored by that player with pressure.  First time that's been done in a Mafia game, to your knowledge?

It was in your behemoth. The part dedicated to Luke. Where you were calling him childish, or implying it at the very least? Saying he shouldn't play until he's more mature? That is what I disliked. That is what I was calling you out on. Not the suggestion to ask for a replacement if he can't play.

Quote from: Imp on October 08, 2013, 04:29:47 am

Feces, fool.  If you're going to tunnel on me, despite...

Quote from: Rolepgeek on October 07, 2013, 10:57:49 pm

Mostly Imp because he's been annoying me and as you could probably guess, I haven't been paying as much attention to the game as I'd like. Now that I've set myself on doing this

...at least attempt to use an illusion of scum hunting, rather than 'Imp makes me annoyed, whaa, so I'm going to use him as a verbal punching bag while occasionally interlacing my personal attacks with references to Scumhunting while occasionally admitting I'm just here to kick people around and otherwise not really paying much attention'.

Yawn.  In case my intentions towards Luke and Squill were opaque, it's sometimes called pressure.  My goal was not to drive either from the game (though I did know we had an apparently eager-to-play replacement who I happened to already know I wanted to be in a/many game(s) with, thus this would not be a particularly unfortunate result in my sights should it occur).  I used most of the tricks I know to attempt to increase interaction with and from both of those initially massively lurking players, 'spending' significant time and effort on this goal and releasing that pressure when it was achieved (in Squill's case) or I realized my goal was unachievable (Luke).  And I believe I did so in a highly pro-Town and 'least harmful for Mafia the Game overall and its current and hopefully returning someday players' fashion as well.  I deem this responsible play.

It seems interesting that Rolepgeek may be protesting, in this one area, only my aggressive, hostile tone combined with the pressure I used.  *snort*

Rolepgeek:  Pot calling the kettle black, much?  Got any cleaner glasses to see this game through?  Any of them happen to be rose colored?

Curious. You, for whatever reason, leave out the last part of the sentence. Mostly because it provides context, since I was in fact referring to setting myself on trying to be active in the game, not on some idea of tunneling. Again, my problem wasn't with the pressure, it was with the insults. Kinda like how you're insulting me now. Passively and actively alike.

Quote from: Imp on October 08, 2013, 04:29:47 am

Quote from: Rolepgeek on October 07, 2013, 10:57:49 pm

Oh wait! Darvi's question as to why I'm not voting him.
Answer: Because you aren't the person I am/was trying to pressure. I was trying to pressure Imp, to get him to do a good play instead of active-lurking like it had appeared he had been(and still may be). And I only have me vote to pressure people with! :(

Rolepgeek: Lie much?  Words don't pressure?  Your intense and intensely focused hostility is not actually a form of pressure to you?  Have you had your blood pressure checked recently, or are you afraid that visiting a doctor would raise questions about possible drug abuse?

Hey look insults about my OOC behavior hurrah! No. It's called additional pressure.

Quote from: Imp on October 08, 2013, 04:29:47 am

continued tomorrow

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day
Post by: Superblackcat on October 09, 2013, 10:06:32 pm

Darvi, Who do you find the most scummy? Second scummy? Can you list everyone? (Including, not including yourself, I don't care)

Also, I can see that they could be partners, But if they are, they pushed it too far, and they brought it out too early.

@RPG. I don't vote people for voting others, I vote people for their reasons for voting others.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day
Post by: Imp on October 10, 2013, 08:47:31 am

Hey all!  My posts are later than normal because extra sleep was needed.  Thursday is my most time-pressured day, in terms of minimal computer access.  From about noon to about 8:30 PM PST I'll probably have no computer access.  We're currently set for D1 end at 9 PM tonight, with 3 votes for extend - Imp, Superblackcat, and Kleril.

Darvi talks about extensions:

Quote from: Darvi on October 09, 2013, 06:56:34 pm

Hasn't this game been extended, like, ten times already?

It hasn't.  If we extend again, this'll be the 5th, and one of those first 4 was a mod extend.  Linksies for proofies, spoiled for brevity.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Quote from: zombie urist on September 25, 2013, 02:15:54 am

Day 1 has begun!Day 1 will end Friday, September 27th at 9 PM.

Quote from: zombie urist on September 27, 2013, 01:05:55 pm

Day 1 extended to 9 PM PST, Tuesday October 1st.

Quote from: zombie urist on September 30, 2013, 01:52:04 am

DAY MOD-EXTENDED
Day 1 will end Tuesday, October 2nd at 9 PM.

Quote from: zombie urist on October 03, 2013, 02:46:23 pm

Day has been extended to Monday, October 7th at 9 PM.

Quote from: zombie urist on October 05, 2013, 11:34:38 pm

Day has been extended to Thursday October 10th 9PM PST. I have another midterm on Wednesday so this extension is longer.

Working in reverse order, and yeah, disregarding Rolepgeek's response for now because I don't think I can effectively scumhunt regarding him atm, or that what he's doing is scumhunting either:

Persus13 has asked this (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4673070#msg4673070) of me most recently:


That portion of Behemoth is subtitled,

Quote from: Imp on October 04, 2013, 03:45:33 am

This is my assessment of Kleril, and his links to Superblackcat:

The first portion that I describe is not buddying - if it is anything that shows a link between Kleril and SBC, then this is distancing.  Kleril's not speaking supportively of SBC.  Instead he comments on something he says looks suspicious, then drops the topic despite pressure to probe further.

Keep in mind - this 'link' between them is the weakest of all possible 'evidence' chains.  To me, the strongest piece of evidence for their buddying comes from what SBC said about Kleril and how he said it in his top FOS/Town post, followed by the nearly simultaneous tone change shown by posts made by SBC and Kleril only 2 hours apart (SBC's top picks, Kleril's change from vote Imp to support Imp), and most weakly by the second post Kleril made, which could be distancing himself from SBC.

That Persus13 says 'Kleril buddying SBC is my first point' helps me understand that I've explained my concerns very poorly.  Kleril looks like Scum to me all by himself  without any links to SBC that may or may not also exist.  SBC also looked super Scummy (but not as) and so I looked for possible links.

Note Darvi points out this is something I should have saved for later -

Quote from: Darvi on October 04, 2013, 09:07:26 pm

you shouldn't judge people by whatever link you see between them. Save that for if one of them flips scum.

Though he does say this in player voice, not {IC}.

Now back to:

Quote from: Persus13 on October 09, 2013, 03:41:47 pm

Specifically THE FIRST REASON you attack Kleril:

You're right about the beginning of my first point, but wrong about what I meant to express as my interpretation - kinda like 'That jaywalker stole the lady's purse!' - even thought the subject of the sentence is descriptive of one thing, "jaywalking", the issue is "thief".

So here's a hopefully quite clear list of why I highly suspect Kleril as Scum.... Persus13, back to you again after I do so - it'll be next post...

Strong reason:  I believe he lied about the thought process he claimed about why he saw my vote on Deathsword as bandwagoning.  I believe this because I tried to see how he could have made the mistake he claims,

Quote from: kleril on September 30, 2013, 08:50:38 pm

I screwed up and thought the vote Deathsword had placed was in fact a vote against him, and so when you voted for him after his, I thought you were placing a second vote against him.

And following the posts, including the votecount, which is what confused -me- originally, I cannot see what Kleril even could have been thinking to draw this conclusion for true reasons.  But Kleril says the issue isn't the votecount - in fact he says in his defense,

Quote from: kleril on October 02, 2013, 11:17:57 am

Every time I passed by one of the mod posts, I would raise an eyebrow, but not much came of it until you all started giving me hell for it.

Quote from: kleril on October 04, 2013, 11:17:11 am

3) It's day one, and where votes have been placed has been established as more of a scumhunting tool than anything. Using the votecount alone, and not the posts to justify them, is useless.

So Kleril did narrow the source of his confusion - it's not votecounts.  Somehow, in the posts made between start of play (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4635015#msg4635015) and his statement of suspicion of my jumping on a bandwagon against Deathsword (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4638358#msg4638358) - there's only 23 posts, including OP and one votecount.

Now - I was confused about the exact same thing Kleril later claims to be confused by.  I posted about it immediately (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4637748#msg4637748), as soon as I saw the first votecount.  My question was answered, an explanation of how to understand votes and read the votecount was provided (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4637818#msg4637818).


Thus my identification of Kleril as a liar, and thus Scum.  I believe Kleril had no desire to vote for me, but pressure placed upon him from other players made him decided he'd better or he'd look too bad.  I believe it was something of a panicked choice, because he'd already made two (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4636627#msg4636627) other (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4637603#msg4637603)'you look scummy' soft accusations and was getting heat about two of the three (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4640177#msg4640177), and that heat included a vote from Deathsword (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4640604#msg4640604).  I believe he felt it made sense to press his vote on me, because he'd said his closest to strong (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4638358#msg4638358) (and most recent) accusation about me.  I challenged his logic (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4642894#msg4642894) and he unvoted and started his 'I'm certain you're Town' (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4647868#msg4647868) gambit.  When pressed further about failure to answer questions and explain his reasoning (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4648162#msg4648162), he responds with having figured out why what he did wasn't making sense - he was wrong (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4650499#msg4650499).  I believe he picked that to lie about because I'd posted of making that same mistake real life days before, so I'd probably believe him pretty easily.  I would, too, if I could find a reasonable evidence chain that is supported by all the things he said before and after - which by the way, is why I DO believe Superblackcat about his 'I thought there were 7 players' claim. (doesn't mean Cat is not scum, but I believe that was not a lie).

There's a lot of secondary supportive evidence, from how he talks and how he shows his thinking... hey, I'll just point out this from one post -

Quote from: kleril on September 29, 2013, 08:40:15 pm

I'm not sure if it's the smart thing to do, but I think you deserve an Unvote.

Imp, I do not believe that you are scum. Really, you have me completely convinced that you are town

Look at them waffles!  If he doesn't believe I'm Scum, if he's completely convinced I'm Town - why isn't it a smart thing to do to unvote?  Oh, because he's not sure he can find a path through this that doesn't make him look like Scum.  And his attention's there because he is Scum, far more than it is on Scumhunting, because he isn't, he's just trying to look like he is.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day
Post by: Imp on October 10, 2013, 09:20:24 am

Quote from: Persus13 on October 07, 2013, 05:19:21 pm

Quote from: Imp on October 07, 2013, 02:15:08 am

My current take on 'others buddying me'... as well as on 'me buddying others':]

I don't protest players getting chummy with me (yet - I may learn to, but for now I believe I can use it just like I can use any other interaction).

So if you don't have problems with buddying why is your first piece of your anti-klelil argument is that he was buddying SBC?

Answered more fully here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4674854#msg4674854), to sum up, you misunderstood me/I explained poorly, and what you highlight shows distancing (link) not buddying (link) if it shows any link at all.

Quote from: Persus13 on October 07, 2013, 05:19:21 pm

Also, what's your opinion of Mr. Zero's odd accusation (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4662560#msg4662560) of SBC buddying Kleril but, as I pointed out earlier, when you look at the context seems more understandable?(as I do here) (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4662673#msg4662673).

My opinion of Mr.Zero's words:  He means what he says.  He sees that as buddying from SBC (regardless of Kleril's role, I have to assume because Zero has not stated his opinion of that).  He sees a ton of scummy stuff from SBC, this is yet more, and that is his point.

My opinion of your words:  I think you're more than 95% likely to be correct in how you assess SBC's answer, to be a response to Kleril's question that you bolded.  Taken in that context, I see reason for Cat to say it, and to say it exactly with the words he did.  I do worry about Cat's faith in Cops/roleblockers - we don't know for sure that we have a cop or a roleblocker in the game on the town side.  We got one, maybe both, but it could be either, and I'm very, very leery of basing plans on hope.  Heck, I'm not even basing any of my plans on the 'hope' of being in play come D2.

My opinion of this, over all:  I think Zero's focused too tightly on Cat and Cat's scumminess.  Presuming that Zero is Town, I would like Zero to be more focused on Scum, rather than scumminess, and upon trying to find that fine line between the two, as I intend to try and find.  Why don't I say so earlier:  Busy with other things and considered this an interesting way to examine Mr.Zero's motives and methods, and further examine Cat's as well in interaction.  Zero has played pretty solidly Town overall, enough that I'm going to have to use 'other things' like what I can see of the depth of his thought and his motives and methods over time to feel him out.

My biggest sadness about him is that he doesn't appear to prefer to hunt deeply for 'why'.  Biggest example: 'why' Cat makes a believable 'I thought there were 7 players'; Zero hasn't even looked, I believe with about 85% certainty.  But that's a null-tell to my mind, and I'd like to watch more of it so I have something better to judge.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day
Post by: Imp on October 10, 2013, 09:58:23 am

Persus13:

Quote from: Persus13 on October 05, 2013, 11:28:07 am

Imp: Now that Kleril seems to be attacking SBC do you think that they're trying to bus SBC or you were just incorrect about the two being scumbuddies?

I think Kleril's still showing himself to be Scum.  His reaction to pressure is interesting, but the main way he trapped himself he hasn't explained in a way I find even slightly believable.  (Maybe he hasn't had enough time yet.  I only started asking about it on the first of this month (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4651431#msg4651431), and I'm not adverse to hearing his defense if he has one yet).

I think it might make good sense to Kleril; if I/we think they both are Scum and he knows SBC is not - if he can get us to lynch SBC first and see that Cat is Town after all, then that might look very very tempting to Kleril, to support a 'wrong about us both, see!' defense to make on D2.

I am not convinced that Cat isn't Scum, however Cat's doing a great job convincing me that he may very well be Town and just unable to avoid looking seriously Scummy yet.

@Rolepgeek, no answers as of now.  I don't really have time left to talk to you now, I don't want to in either case, and with luck one of us won't be here come D2 so I'll never have to.  If we're both alive and you haven't been replaced yet, I suppose we might have to interact again then.

@Darvi - Point of question, I never RVSed you, somehow during start of play was like you weren't even here or something.  Missed my chance, realized it, took it then.  I'll use it somehow, perhaps for a feel to weigh other things against, if opportunity allows.

@Superblackcat - Still like you, be you Scum or Town.  Only advice for you now:  Don't let yourself get caught into petty.  Like that 3 days thing... remember weekends don't count against someone, if they don't post (but I say weekends count for someone if they do).  Weekends are time off.  Double check Mr.Zero's post times if you must - but he's FAR from the lurkiest of us.  I think you're putting too much weight on the feel of anyone attacking you (right or wrong) being Scum, and far too little attention on everything else going on.  Forgiven, just hope you buck that trend soon.  DO go for people that attack you (and everyone else) but do so with as much thought as you do emotion, if not more.  This is NOT to say that I think Zero's Town, though he has been on my 'not very scummy' list most of the game.

About this question of yours:

Quote from: Superblackcat on October 06, 2013, 04:16:17 pm

Secondly, You are telling me not to focus only on you (And frankly, I haven't) But they you continue to focus, solely, on me and kleril. Might I ask what is this contradiction doing?

I agree you haven't.  I disagree about my focus, but agree my POSTS have been highly focused on you and Kleril.  Swung me around to 'not proof' about you.  Hasn't changed my opinion of Kleril yet.  Everyone else mostly, just watching.  It's hard work to multitask, for me too.

@Mr.Zero:  I don't have advice for you.  I think you're playing pretty strong, you have weaknesses and a good head on your shoulders.  I do hope that everyone remembers that should I be proved Town at some point, that doesn't clear you because you obviously weren't my scumbuddy that I don't have.

About Persus13:  As I see it, Persus is doing everything right - he is not scummy at all - except!  He has made multiple reference to his predecessor being Town.  I hate that because it's manipulative in some very subtle ways.  Additionally he makes the claim that he felt that way about Luke because of what I said - I'm not sure that is a lie, but did I ever, EVER say Luke was town, even when I was saying we shouldn't lynch Luke?  NO.  Even in Behemoth I say that Luke is third scummiest to me - and of course, if there's two other scum, that means he can't be Scum.  Do not, please do not, take any proof that comes from me - be it my words, or from my flip should I die at any point - to have ANY bearing on Persus's possible innocence.  The one thing Persus has done that looks scummy to me is to suggest that he's town because Luke was town.  That was NEVER established, and seems deeply manipulative to say.  So especially remember please, should I end up proved to be Town, that says NOTHING about Persus13 being Town or not - and I do NOT support anything that says that Luke was Town.

To everyone else, and to all, if you wanted me to answer something and I still haven't, I missed it; ask again and if an extension or miracle of schedule juggling allows you'll get your answer.  Otherwise, good luck all, good play all, and maybe see most of y'all D2!

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day
Post by: Imp on October 10, 2013, 02:03:49 pm

Oh man.  Well, off to school I go.  Final words until RIGHT before D1 end, unless I get more computer access than I expect, or another extend happens:

Looks to me like this is our current board.

Squill, 1 vote - Darvi
Superblackcat, 2 votes - Deathsword, Mr.Zero
Kleril, 2 votes - Imp, Squill
Mr.Zero, 2 votes - Kleril, Superblackcat
Darvi, 1 vote - Persus13

Not voting: Rolepgeek

Look-look well, oh wolves.  Remember that tie=No lynch, and use that in your decisionmaking should you choose.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day
Post by: Persus13 on October 10, 2013, 03:49:00 pm

Mod Question: Is an extension happening or not? and if there are say three votes to extend and one to shorten does that do anything?

Spoiler: Response to FOS (click to show/hide)

Quote from: Imp on October 10, 2013, 09:58:23 am

About Persus13:  As I see it, Persus is doing everything right - he is not scummy at all - except!  He has made multiple reference to his predecessor being Town.  I hate that because it's manipulative in some very subtle ways.  Additionally he makes the claim that he felt that way about Luke because of what I said - I'm not sure that is a lie, but did I ever, EVER say Luke was town, even when I was saying we shouldn't lynch Luke?  NO.  Even in Behemoth I say that Luke is third scummiest to me - and of course, if there's two other scum, that means he can't be Scum.  Do not, please do not, take any proof that comes from me - be it my words, or from my flip should I die at any point - to have ANY bearing on Persus's possible innocence.  The one thing Persus has done that looks scummy to me is to suggest that he's town because Luke was town.  That was NEVER established, and seems deeply manipulative to say.  So especially remember please, should I end up proved to be Town, that says NOTHING about Persus13 being Town or not - and I do NOT support anything that says that Luke was Town.

Well, first of I don't want to talk about my predecessor as he isn't playing anymore and isn't important. However my judgement of Luke was when I wasn't playing. Not only did I view Luke as town, I viewed EVERYONE as town and didn't really think about who was scum and who wasn't. I just saw a bunch of players attacking a poor player. Now that I'm playing, my mindset has changed. And secondly, I felt that Luke was town because of parts of the Behemoth about how you think Luke may be a kid, which judging from what I've seen elsewhere on Bay12 seemed to be true and reinforced my perception of Luke as a poor town player not a poor scum player. I only answered your questions on why I thought Luke was town, because you asked, and several of those reasons are not valid now that I actually have an impact game-wise.

Also: Unvote on my Darvi pressure vote, and back to Kleril. Kleril managed to diffuse some of my suspicions and raise new ones in the same post, so I'm going to stick with voting for him.

At this point I'm going to have to agree with Darvi that not extending and going into Day 2 may be a good idea. The arguments are getting stale, and other than Rolepgeek most of the votes haven't shifted (besides mine, and that was a pressure vote).

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day
Post by: Darvi on October 10, 2013, 03:54:48 pm

[Alright, this is the home stretch. The time for pressure votes is over, and you should put them on whomever you think is the most scummy asap.
You'll also notice that we have a three-way tie, which of course is a bad thing. So somebody will have to change their votes to one of these three. However, doing so carelessly will just look like bandwagoning, so consider your options. You should vote somebody who you think is suspicious and have said so earlier, as to give your vote credibility, and of course somebody who's part of the tie. Unvoting somebody who's part of the tie, however, is stupid, even if there weren't two other people upholding the tie. It indicates that you don't care about the lynchee, and that yoyu are willing to let your highest suspicion live in exchange for killing somebody who you think as less scummy. That is, naturally, not a town move. Mind you, that isn't the case if their new target is one of the tying votees.

Example:Imp stops voting kleril and votes, say, RPG instead. Even if that had broken the tie, it's still scummy since it lets its highest scumpick (kleril) live and condemns somebody else who is less scummy to Imp than either kleril or RPG (in this case, SBC or Mr.Z) to a lynch.
Example:Imp stops voting kleril and votes SBC instead. Provided it has had a case against SBC prior, that would not be scummy. It's basically a compromise, "He's not as scummy as kleril, but as you know I think SuperBlackCat is scummy too so I'm okay with breaking the tie by lynching him first".

This isn't meant to be representative of its actual opinions, naturally.


You can (and should) also still answer questions before the day ends. Even if you die, the others can (and should) still answer it on the next day, so at least the survivors have something to go on.]

Quote from: Squill on October 09, 2013, 07:43:47 pm

Quote from: Darvi on October 09, 2013, 06:56:34 pm

Squill, on the other hand, tried suggesting lynching kleril for what basically amounts to "lets lynch it and see what happens", which pushed it from "unhelpful" to "scummy". I also noticed that he said the same thing earlier (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4668216#msg4668216), while saying that he wasn't sure kleril was scum. While things may have changed, it's highly likely it doesn't vote kleril because it thinks it's scum, but because they just want to see it hang.

I didn't do it to "see what happens." This post (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4668259#msg4668259) just struck me as particularly scummy, and I was convinced where I wasn't before. If that does not seem scummy to you, then could you tell me why?

What a vague reply. Which part of that post is it that struck you as scummy?

Also I never said it didn't seem scummy. Stop putting words in my mouth. Fingers. Keyboard. Something. Thingy. Not since my very first post since way back.

Quote from: Rolepgeek on October 09, 2013, 09:59:09 pm

I hope I answered the latter question a bit better up above. The former question, I would have to agree with that, but that's not what it is. It's a lazy excuse for me being lazy. If I was more active, like I was last game, I would hope to be dealing with at least 4-5 people and pressuring them. But basically, the reason is that I wanted to have pressure on Imp more than words, since she can obviously handle that pressure just fine, and return it in kind.

I'm not happy with that answer. Like, not at all. But I can tell you can't handle the stress and are unlikely to reply to anything so I guess I'll have to drop you for now.

Quote from: Superblackcat on October 09, 2013, 10:06:32 pm

Darvi, Who do you find the most scummy? Second scummy? Can you list everyone? (Including, not including yourself, I don't care)

Oh no you don't. You answer my question first:

Quote from: Darvi on October 09, 2013, 06:56:34 pm

So, you say it's scummy, so obviously you have been paying attention to it. Please enlighten me and tell me where it was being scummy and how.

Quote from: Imp on October 10, 2013, 08:47:31 am

Thus my identification of Kleril as a liar, and thus Scum.  I believe Kleril had no desire to vote for me, but pressure placed upon him from other players made him decided he'd better or he'd look too bad.  I believe it was something of a panicked choice, because he'd already made two (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4636627#msg4636627) other (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4637603#msg4637603)'you look scummy' soft accusations and was getting heat about two of the three (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4640177#msg4640177), and that heat included a vote from Deathsword (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4640604#msg4640604).  I believe he felt it made sense to press his vote on me, because he'd said his closest to strong (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4638358#msg4638358) (and most recent) accusation about me.  I challenged his logic (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4642894#msg4642894) and he unvoted and started his 'I'm certain you're Town' (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4647868#msg4647868) gambit.  When pressed further about failure to answer questions and explain his reasoning (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4648162#msg4648162), he responds with having figured out why what he did wasn't making sense - he was wrong (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4650499#msg4650499).  I believe he picked that to lie about because I'd posted of making that same mistake real life days before, so I'd probably believe him pretty easily.  I would, too, if I could find a reasonable evidence chain that is supported by all the things he said before and after - which by the way, is why I DO believe Superblackcat about his 'I thought there were 7 players' claim. (doesn't mean Cat is not scum, but I believe that was not a lie).

Thanks for that case of your summary against - I mean, that summary of your case against kleril. That was quite enlightening and I see why you vote for him.

That doesn't mean you don't get to answer, though, SBC.

Quote from: Imp on October 10, 2013, 09:58:23 am

@Darvi - Point of question, I never RVSed you, somehow during start of play was like you weren't even here or something.  Missed my chance, realized it, took it then.  I'll use it somehow, perhaps for a feel to weigh other things against, if opportunity allows.

You don't have to RV everybody. That is silly, pointless, and a waste of time and energy (of course, if you have time and energy to waste, go ahead. More questions is better than fewer question). Just make sure everybody in the game is covered, maybe with a preference for people whom you think would be good to get reactions from. The other players will hopefully be covered by somebody else. And either way, I joined what I felt was after the RVS anyway. Asking questions related to the game, or my starting post, should be enough.

I also noticed that I missed most of Perseus' questions.

Quote

Also, there any special scum tells for ICs?

No. The only thing you should take in mind that anything said in the IC's IC voice of choice should not be held for or against them, as that is strictly OOC and meant for everybody else to learn. Otherwise, we're just normal players. For a given value of normal.

Quote

Any previous games you'd recommend for someone interested in getting a read on your playstyle?

Lemme see. Town games, there's BYOR 7 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=81714.500) and the literal Vanilla Mafia (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=75826.0) (that's one of my first games, but I haven't really improved since then) that I can remember (because one had me getting killed more often than Kenny, and the other apparently ended with me finding tru luv?

Scum games, on the other hand, were much more fun. I also haven't lost a single (fair (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=86089.0)) scum game that I've played to completion, like, ever. Case in point, RL Mafia 1 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=78265.0) and 3 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=91413.0).

Quote

Also, why are people making such a big deal about the Scum IC? He's not a behind the scenes puppeteer or anything right?

It shouldn't be. Thing is, SBC made some questions about the game regarding scumchat and stuff, which some people took the wrong way.

So, my current tally:
Squill is up there in terms of scumminess. I still don't like his attitude towards the kleril vote, and his early lurking isn't doing him any favours.
Mr.Z is even higher, but I never got to vote for him since I was busy with other people. This is because of his inconsistent reads and his failure to answer even after acknowledging that he's been asked a question.
Imp has worked to fix the issue I voted it with. Still keeping an eye on it, though.
I'm not happy with RPG, but it evidently isn't in a shape to play at the moment, so there's not a lot I can do about that.
Ditto with Sword, concerning his lack of activity. Again, not much I can do about it.
SBC is a case where I had to work a lot to get my point across, which mostly is due to its newbishness.

That all being said, Mr.Z is whose lynch I can live the most with, especially considering that SBC still has a pressure vote in it.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day
Post by: Darvi on October 10, 2013, 03:57:30 pm

Oh for crying out loud, Perseus. I am supposed to be the ninja hereabouts.

Voting Squill again. I wouldn't have switched votes had I noticed Perseus' post. [I could unvote, which would have the same effect on the lynch, but it does get a message across.]

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day
Post by: Persus13 on October 10, 2013, 03:58:58 pm

I was about to point out that I had switched my vote, but you ninja'd to mention my ninja

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day
Post by: Darvi on October 10, 2013, 03:59:58 pm

Quote from: Persus13 on October 10, 2013, 03:49:00 pm

At this point I'm going to have to agree with Darvi that not extending and going into Day 2 may be a good idea.

I didn't actually argue that, but it is a fact that I love the night. I love the night. I love the element of danger and the ecstasy of flight.
I love the night, I love the night,
I love to dance with a stranger and feel her delight,
And when the dancing is through, I kick off my shoes,
And I listen to the beating of my heart...

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day
Post by: Persus13 on October 10, 2013, 04:05:36 pm

Quote from: Darvi on October 10, 2013, 03:59:58 pm

Quote from: Persus13 on October 10, 2013, 03:49:00 pm

At this point I'm going to have to agree with Darvi that not extending and going into Day 2 may be a good idea.

I didn't actually argue that, but it is a fact that I love the night. I love the night. I love the element of danger and the ecstasy of flight.
I love the night, I love the night,
I love to dance with a stranger and feel her delight,
And when the dancing is through, I kick off my shoes,
And I listen to the beating of my heart...

Oh, I assumed your comment about so many extensions meant that you wanted Day 1 to end. Sorry.

Also, I'll be open to an extension if something happens in the next 6 hours, but right now, I''m looking forward to learning some new info (of course, knowing my luck, I'm going to get killed by the mafia because I said that)

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day
Post by: zombie urist on October 10, 2013, 05:13:46 pm

[2] Mr.Zero - kleril, Superblackcat
[3] kleril - Imp, Persus13, Squill
[1] Squill - Darvi
[2] Superblackcat - Deathsword, Mr.Zero

[1] Not voting - Rolepgeek

3 to extend Imp, Superblackcat, and Kleril
0 to shorten

one more needed to extend
day ends in ~6 hrs

someone check my votecount plz

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day
Post by: Darvi on October 10, 2013, 05:31:51 pm

TIIIIIRRRUUUUIIIIIINNNN!!! *angry fist shake*

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day - 1 spot open!
Post by: Superblackcat on October 10, 2013, 06:09:02 pm

I'm up to kill kleril, however since there is already enough people for him to get lynched, I'll leave my vote where it is...


Darvi, So sorry I missed that, I think I read right over it, formulated a question, and forgot to answer it.....

So, you say it's scummy, so obviously you have been paying attention to it. Please enlighten me and tell me where it was being scummy and how. (it's refers to kleril)

The first thing that was scummy, was that when he became pressured, the first thing he did, was not say, "I'm innocent, here's the reasons why" or try to address the problems, but instead, shift the blame. In playing EM, that he shown up over and over in scum, while rarely happens in town.

He then continues to keep saying that he's scummy, but he's really sorry. It seems he's trying to induce WIFOM to get himself off the hook.

Basically, most of his posts after his activity has been scummy. He has been mad at me for buddying him. (What?) when I didn't haven't and won't. I support him, because he made the mistakes I made earlier, he gets mad and tries to shift blame on me. He goes off on tangents, that really isn't actually there, especially about myself. it just seems that he is a scum that doesn't know how to cope with being scum and pressured.

Darvi, Since I think you have atleast skimmed through his posts, Tell me why you don't think them to be "as important"

I expect people to atleast skim through a post, and then decide if it is important to them.

@Zu, seems correct.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day - 1 spot open!
Post by: Imp on October 10, 2013, 06:24:22 pm

Woo!  got a break long enough to get online.

What do we do, if say Kleril gets on and shifts his vote to Superblackcat, particularly in the last moments before end of day returning the vote to a tie of 3 votes each?

Yes, the rest of us would surely think that even more scummy.  Yes, we would surely make surely sure that Kleril was the vote for sure the end of next day.

But that might not bring us closer to the other Scum, and we would have lost one night, possibly lost one Town for sure player (whomever is night killed will surely be Town for sure).

Can we afford that risk?  The question's directed more to Superblackcat, who says 'I support the kill of Kleril, but since my vote isn't needed' - but it might be.

I can see myself, if I were Scum, had the vote by a 1 lead margin, and could return us to a tie by changing my vote, doing just that.  Changing my vote would NOT do anything to prove myself Scum that being lynched would not do, and it would buy my team the chance of one extra kill.

I do not know that Kleril, Scum or Town, would do this.  As Town, I believe I wouldn't do it - my dying in that circumstance gives Town more than returning us to the tie under those circumstances.  But we are possibly leaving the option in Kleril's hands as things are now.

There's information to be gained whatever happens, and until someone dies most of us don't get to know their alignment, but wow.  I hoped I'd feel MORE certain of what was going to happen when I popped in.  Now I feel.... just as unsure as before.  Gah!  This game is going to drive me crazy!  .... What do some of you mean, I already was?   ;D

Anyway!  Think about how much power you want to leave floating around for the possibly condemned to play with.  If it makes sense to do so, of course do it.  Back to class I go, time to throw a few fits on the way.  Luck and skill to all!

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day - 1 spot open!
Post by: Persus13 on October 10, 2013, 08:32:02 pm

I'm going to vote to shorten. I don't want to get a NL.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day
Post by: Tiruin on October 10, 2013, 09:15:10 pm

Quote from: Darvi on October 10, 2013, 05:31:51 pm

TIIIIIRRRUUUUIIIIIINNNN!!! *angry fist shake*

What did I do this time? :O
Check the votecount? I'm..literally unsure. I didn't keep up with this game lately, and the OP is unupdated given that Persus is playing.

Quote from: zombie urist on October 10, 2013, 05:13:46 pm

[2] Mr.Zero - kleril, Superblackcat
[3] kleril - Imp, Persus13, Squill
[1] Squill - Darvi
[2] Superblackcat - Deathsword, Mr.Zero

[1] Not voting - Rolepgeek

3 to extend Imp, Superblackcat, and Kleril
0 to shorten

one more needed to extend
day ends in ~6 hrs

someone check my votecount plz

Hmm :I
Well..the abbr tags are strange. I have no idea why you put them down xD

Lurkertracker agrees though. We have these people laying their votes on the person on the right. Please replace any people who did replacement-in since I am lacking in time to check.

Quote

Darvi > Squill

Deathsword > Superblackcat
Mr.Zero > Superblackcat (Lurkertracker picked this up as your vote... (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4641639#msg4641639)) = THIS (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4640177#msg4640177) is his actual vote.

Imp > Kleril
Persus13 > Kleril
Squill > kleril

kleril > Mr.Zero
Superblackkittycatcat > Mr.Zero

...So yeah.
> Two more needed to extend.

Quote

Extensions count as opposition to shortens and vice versa.

Spoiler: OOC (click to show/hide)

Quote from: zombie urist on October 05, 2013, 12:04:33 am

Quote from: Tiruin on October 04, 2013, 09:31:48 pm

I feel hurt because I read walls of text like they're nothing :<

You write walls of text like they're nothing :I

Heeey D:<

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day - 1 spot open!
Post by: Rolepgeek on October 10, 2013, 09:57:05 pm

I don't have school tomorrow. HOWEVER, turns out I don't have extra time to do stuff, because I still have to get up at the same time.

Sorry. >.> Not planned.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day - 1 spot open!
Post by: zombie urist on October 10, 2013, 10:40:39 pm

Day ends in ~20 mins

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day - 1 spot open!
Post by: zombie urist on October 10, 2013, 11:29:09 pm

First day in the cargo bay

After a tense first day of arguing, the robots decided kleril is infected and must be scrapped. ZOM-B siliently guides him towards the compactor.

The compactor door opens, awaiting a victim. kleril dutifully steps in, and the door once again closes.

Immediately, the compactor does its job. A loud *crunch* is heard. Several more follow.

The robots remain quiet as the door opens again. What once was a hardworking robot is now a cube of steel and a silicon board.

ZOM-B quickly scans kleril's remains. Clean. 0 infections found.

The lights in the room dim and the robots move to their recharging stations, awaiting another suspensful day tomorrow.

---

kleril has been lynched!
He was a vanilla town.

---

Night 1 will end Monday, October 14 at 9 PM

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 2 - ONE REPLACEMENT NEEDED!
Post by: zombie urist on October 15, 2013, 12:06:29 am

First Night in Cargo Moonlight

The robots left their charging stations and once again convened. They soon discovered the body of Persus13. His headpiece was crushed and his mouthpiece was also crushed, being attached to the headpiece.

It was a refrigerator unit that did the crushing. A malicious robot must have dropped it on him during the night.

ZOM-B scans his remains. No sign of infection found.

---

Persus13 has died in the night.
He was a vanilla town.

---

Day 2 will end Friday, October 18th at midnight PST.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 2 Robot, You - ONE REPLACEMENT NEEDED!
Post by: Superblackcat on October 15, 2013, 01:02:38 am

Imp, I realized that, and was going to change my vote... but uh... Day was over before I got home :<


Anyway, what is your thoughts on these outcomes? Especially directed to Imp and MrZero, as kleril came up vanilla. There was noone that suspected Persus or anything... So it makes me think it's more off a Squill type thing to do. However, This is all speculation.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 2 Robot, You - ONE REPLACEMENT NEEDED!
Post by: Imp on October 15, 2013, 01:49:17 am

Tears for the fallen, and I'll offer this in place of flowers; just translate the references of love and marriage to scumhunting.  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OH9-UQ6YMRw.  May the 'someone like you' be actual Scum next lynch.


I really wanted to ask Persus13 why he voted to shorten.  Seemed suspicious to me; especially when done to prevent a NL - had he extended D1 would have continued (can't twist the vote if there's no endpoint); but with the shorten we would still need multiple additional shortens to end the day early, or two more extends to pull us out of a sudden votechange.

Then again, I was online as D1 ended, so I checked to see who else was.  Persus was, perhaps also watching closely as night fell.  His shorten could have helped someone feel that messing with the vote would work; he was possibly present and able to act quickly to switch that shorten into an extend, showcasing someone's weird vote without it being able to take effect if only that had happened.

Now that I know you're Town, Persus, I'm glad of what you did.  Good lessons for me too; I'm still being suspicious of the wrong stuff.  I'm not glad you're dead, but I sure am glad I don't have to doubt you further.

Kleril, I wish I'd asked you more directly sooner, and without the 'tude, about what I saw as not only scummy, but lying as well.  Lots of lessons for me from you too, though I'm not sure yet how the heck to understand or apply most of them.

Ahh well.

So Darvy.  What's this about you usually killing Darvi's on sight (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4673730#msg4673730)?  Some sort of Highlander weirdness you have going on, or are you tossing a clue out there into the wild yonder?

Squill.  Your first post (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4636158#msg4636158) promised some questions from you.  You're still kinda quiet, but you are asking questions, and they do tend to be good ones - could we have more of them please?

Quote from: Squill on September 27, 2013, 05:01:28 pm

I still am not too confident in my skills at the game. Until I notice something that seems suspicious, I'm just going to try and avoid causing more confusion than is necessary.

What's the difference between this and lurking?  Confusion gives us something to look at, consider, and evaluate, - both about the confusion person, and also about everyone else that reacts and doesn't react to that confusion.  Kleril sure confused me, and he at least in part died for it - but this confusion evoked reactions and interactions not only between him and me, but involving most of the other players too.  Will you explain your views on how being careful is a more effective scumhunting method?

Rolepgeek, I've got this vote and no better use for it right now.  If you're dead there's no need to replace your spot; and from close to start of play you've not really done much that seems pro-Town to me.  Your behavior isn't that bad of a Scum cover either.  I'm far from sure you're Scum but I'm far from sure you're Town either, so for the moment this works for me.  As long as you're seeking replacement I'm not going to ask you anything.

Deathsword, what the heck is down with you?  So incredibly little activity... I do understand busy but I'm tempted to say that you've got to be Town because surely our (only originally active) IC is going to feel he can't just lurk if he's Scum, cause that's not very educational for us, but if you're just another Townie that's maybe 'not so bad' - or am I wrong about that?  What should we -do- with you, Deathsword, what do you have to say about yourself?

Mr.Zero, are you tunneling on Superblackcat?  There's scummy, and then there's Scum.  Are you after him because you see scummy, or have ID'd him as Scum?  Where's that line for you?

Superblackcat, it's hard for me to think about the outcome of D1 and N1.  I'm mostly feeling and trying to stop it, because though emotion can be very useful, I need to focus that away from those I absolutely know are Town in order to try and find Scum.  you think it's more of a Squill type thing to do (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4688294#msg4688294)

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 2 Robot, You - ONE REPLACEMENT NEEDED!
Post by: Imp on October 15, 2013, 01:52:32 am

Quote from: Imp on October 15, 2013, 01:49:17 am

Superblackcat, it's hard for me to think about the outcome of D1 and N1.  I'm mostly feeling and trying to stop it, because though emotion can be very useful, I need to focus that away from those I absolutely know are Town in order to try and find Scum.  you think it's more of a Squill type thing to do (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4688294#msg4688294)

Whups, slightly butchered that.  Here's how it should have read, and what the actual question is:

Superblackcat, Explain please, why you think it's more of a Squill type thing to do (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4688294#msg4688294), and when you say 'it's', do you mean the selection of Persus13 as N1 kill or something else?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 2 Robot, You - ONE REPLACEMENT NEEDED!
Post by: Tiruin on October 15, 2013, 02:21:33 am

If nobody ish going to replaace in then I'm volunteering if it affects the game for far too long.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 2 Robot, You - ONE REPLACEMENT NEEDED!
Post by: Mr.Zero on October 15, 2013, 03:02:31 am

Quote from: Superblackcat on October 15, 2013, 01:02:38 am

Anyway, what is your thoughts on these outcomes? Especially directed to Imp and MrZero, as kleril came up vanilla. There was noone that suspected Persus or anything... So it makes me think it's more off a Squill type thing to do. However, This is all speculation.

The lynch? Not surprising, i didn't have him on my radar cause he didn't send me scum vibes.
The NK? I'm not exactly sure, but i feel that they eliminated a 'nobody' cause eliminating the high aggressors may have a very suspicious outcome.

Quote from: Imp on October 15, 2013, 01:49:17 am

Mr.Zero, are you tunneling on Superblackcat?  There's scummy, and then there's Scum.  Are you after him because you see scummy, or have ID'd him as Scum?  Where's that line for you?

Tunneling? Maybe... There's just something fishy about him. I've learned that trusting your gut is alright, but you cannot vote on that alone though. Anyhow...

@Rolepegeek
The reason i didn't vote for you or not suspect you immediately is because you played similar to what i saw in other BM's in my past. You could've filled two spots with that style. Townie Power role or scum in hiding.

Why didn't you vote at the end of the day, or earlier?

From post #158 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4659334#msg4659334) to #227 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4668925#msg4668925), you haven't posted a single thing alright?

You then come back, mention procrastinating, shoot a half-assed post of little town value (You even mention me being scum and don't even bother to pressure me by FOS or a Vote) and then ride off into the darkness of the night to pop up again asking for a replacement.

WHY wouldn't you scumhunt?, it only hurts town if you are town but helps scum if you are scum.

Quote from: Rolepgeek on September 28, 2013, 09:12:30 pm

To clarify; I would not night-kill them based solely on their experience. I would try to night-kill in such a way to sow dissent and confusion, and killing the ICs doesn't necessarily do that.

Well, i'm very sure that Persus13 NK is confusing, what do you say about this statement of yours?


Looking trough your posts it seems that you are( or were) more busy with Imp's personal attacks (Which i don't see as personal attacks, hell it's like the best tool to crack a person and damn did he crack.), than trying to accomplish something reasonable.

@SBC

Oh boy, you played your filthy fake buddying card well. Even if only for a bit , you've managed to screw over Kleril. What will you try to accomplish for this day?

@Deathsword
Do i or we, need to start slamming the prodding stick to get some more activity out of you? Do you actually even care? Cause i'm not sure if i should see you as town or scum.


Nooooo, tiruin. You'll doom us all.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day
Post by: Persus13 on October 15, 2013, 06:55:11 am

Quote from: Persus13 on October 10, 2013, 04:05:36 pm

Also, I'll be open to an extension if something happens in the next 6 hours, but right now, I'm looking forward to learning some new info (of course, knowing my luck, I'm going to get killed by the mafia because I said that)

Well I guess I shouldn't have said that. Good luck to you all in the search.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 2 Robot, You - ONE REPLACEMENT NEEDED!
Post by: zombie urist on October 15, 2013, 09:46:54 am

Quote from: Tiruin on October 15, 2013, 02:21:33 am

If nobody ish going to replaace in then I'm volunteering if it affects the game for far too long.

Can you do votecounts and stuff this week?  :) I'm suuuuper busy.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 2 Robot, You - ONE REPLACEMENT NEEDED!
Post by: Tiruin on October 15, 2013, 10:08:45 am

Quote from: zombie urist on October 15, 2013, 09:46:54 am

Quote from: Tiruin on October 15, 2013, 02:21:33 am

If nobody ish going to replaace in then I'm volunteering if it affects the game for far too long.

Can you do votecounts and stuff this week?  :) I'm suuuuper busy.

I don't even...

:I

---

Tau Callista 1:29 AM Tuesday Packing Room 53

The wind, cold and calm, blows through the area. ZOM-B's scanners glow faintly in the air as the moisture warps their lining, indicating which and where the robots' trackers were aimed. A gong rings in the silence, hollow and mournful, and a tiny, iridescent orb floats into the room. It projects a screen holding up each and every robot's identification signs, as well as their manufacturer and bar code. A timer clicks. It is a new day, and a new day for vigilance.

1 1	Imp   Squill   Rolepgeek - Imp   Superblackcat - Mr.Zero   Mr.Zero   Deathsword   Darvi

Extend - 0/3
Shorten - 0/4

Today will end on Friday, October 18th at midnight PST (http://www.timeanddate.com/countdown/generic?iso=20131018T16&p0=145&msg=Day+2+End&csz=1)

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I've converted PST (-8 GMT) to my timezone = +8 GMT

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 2 Robot, You - ONE REPLACEMENT NEEDED!
Post by: Teneb on October 15, 2013, 12:34:23 pm

I am sorry for disappearing for the last two D1 days, but I got some unknown disease and spent both those days constantly under fever and vomiting. Luck is not with me this time.

{It is D2 now. As you are well aware, someone died within the night, which means mafia made the kill. However, it is pointless to speculate on what happened or the reasons, for only the mod and those involved in the actions know what really happened, and it results in nothing but WIFOM. Focus on the posts from D1, as well as those from this very day}

SBC

Quote from: Superblackcat on October 15, 2013, 01:02:38 am

Anyway, what is your thoughts on these outcomes? Especially directed to Imp and MrZero, as kleril came up vanilla. There was noone that suspected Persus or anything... So it makes me think it's more off a Squill type thing to do. However, This is all speculation.

Elaborate, please. Also, people suspected Persus predecessor for massively scummy actions, actions which still reflected on him.

Imp: If you got nothing better to do with your vote, as you claim here:

Quote from: Imp on October 15, 2013, 01:49:17 am

Rolepgeek, I've got this vote and no better use for it right now.  If you're dead there's no need to replace your spot; and from close to start of play you've not really done much that seems pro-Town to me.  Your behavior isn't that bad of a Scum cover either.  I'm far from sure you're Scum but I'm far from sure you're Town either, so for the moment this works for me.  As long as you're seeking replacement I'm not going to ask you anything.

Then why not use it to pressure someone who can actually answer you? It seems as if you want to vote someone but don't really care who, and Rolepgeek provides a nice, safe target.

Also, someone asked at some point, I can't seem to find the post, for an example of previous play from me. Here it is (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=124597.0).

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 2 Robot, You - ONE REPLACEMENT NEEDED!
Post by: Rolepgeek on October 15, 2013, 09:58:30 pm

Quote from: Imp on October 15, 2013, 01:49:17 am

Rolepgeek, I've got this vote and no better use for it right now.  If you're dead there's no need to replace your spot; and from close to start of play you've not really done much that seems pro-Town to me.  Your behavior isn't that bad of a Scum cover either.  I'm far from sure you're Scum but I'm far from sure you're Town either, so for the moment this works for me.  As long as you're seeking replacement I'm not going to ask you anything.

That's an extremely poor idea. Until I'm replaced, I am going to continue to play to the best of my ability. You shouldn't vote someone based on 'meh, nothing better to do'. Vote someone for pressure, for RVS, or to get them lynched. It's not RVS anymore, it's not pressure since you aren't going to ask me anything, which means all that's left is lynch votes. But you aren't sure I'm scum. So why vote me? There's no point to it.

Quote from: Mr.Zero on October 15, 2013, 03:02:31 am

@Rolepegeek
The reason i didn't vote for you or not suspect you immediately is because you played similar to what i saw in other BM's in my past. You could've filled two spots with that style. Townie Power role or scum in hiding.

Why didn't you vote at the end of the day, or earlier?

From post #158 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4659334#msg4659334) to #227 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4668925#msg4668925), you haven't posted a single thing alright?

You then come back, mention procrastinating, shoot a half-assed post of little town value (You even mention me being scum and don't even bother to pressure me by FOS or a Vote) and then ride off into the darkness of the night to pop up again asking for a replacement.

WHY wouldn't you scumhunt?, it only hurts town if you are town but helps scum if you are scum.

Quote from: Rolepgeek on September 28, 2013, 09:12:30 pm

To clarify; I would not night-kill them based solely on their experience. I would try to night-kill in such a way to sow dissent and confusion, and killing the ICs doesn't necessarily do that.

Well, i'm very sure that Persus13 NK is confusing, what do you say about this statement of yours?


Looking trough your posts it seems that you are( or were) more busy with Imp's personal attacks (Which i don't see as personal attacks, hell it's like the best tool to crack a person and damn did he crack.), than trying to accomplish something reasonable.

>.> I just don't really use the Blue. I use dark-thingy, so it's painful to look at anyway, and I don't see how it pressures someone anymore than the same thing without blue. I didn't vote anyone because I didn't have reason to. Or rather, I didn't have time to see who I should vote for, since I didn't have the extra two hours(well, one) that I thought I would that day.

As for the Persus NK and my statement, that means the scum is playing smart, is all. All scum would want to confuse us. It makes it harder to find them. Or of course, they could be trying to shove suspicion on me.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 2 Robot, You - ONE REPLACEMENT NEEDED!
Post by: Superblackcat on October 15, 2013, 10:36:59 pm

Persus has been middle of the road, not many people suspected him, I sure didn't suspect him. Even after Luke, After it got transfered to Persus, no one thought he was really scum, but at the same time, no one though he was really town.

Squill has been trying to, and succeeding, to remain under the radar. And that, It seems, is an under the radar thing.


MrZ: Elaborate please? None of you guys (Hopefully) Voted kleril for "buddying" me, you guys voted him for his reaction. At least that's what I hope. This is the continuation of the d1 vote, as nothing has made MrZ less scummy. He also did not explain his attack on me.


@RPG why is killing persus confusing?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 2 Robot, You - ONE REPLACEMENT NEEDED!
Post by: Squill on October 16, 2013, 05:33:14 am

I'm really sorry I haven't been posting more, but I'm still mulling things over, and I have to leave for school in a few minutes.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 2 Robot, You - ONE REPLACEMENT NEEDED!
Post by: Imp on October 16, 2013, 06:46:14 am

Deathsword.  I'm seriously disappointed in you now, in you as a player and in you as an 'example of how to play', which is what I believed an IC would act as.

You're acting like you have this 'right to lurk', and you absolutely don't.

Just look at your posts on lurker (http://www.ocf.berkeley.edu/~azhou/projects/LT/zt.py?topic=130600&start=0&msg=4635015&sort=user&numreplace=2&replaced0=griffinpup&replacer0=Darvi&replaced1=Lukeinator&replacer1=Persus13&player0=Tiruin&label0=np&numlabel=1) - This whole game you've only made 11.  I double checked them all;  two of the 11 have been only use of IC voice, and including those, 5 of them have had nothing I can recognize in any fashion as scumhunting.  I'm being really generous in this assessment.  Anything resembling a question, anything resembling analysis; anything more than answering questions, apologies, or IC voice I'm calling 'scumhunting' - it doesn't seem to be a joke, and even if it is, I'm calling it garbage.  Your activity and effort in this game, at least inside this thread, has been poor and steadily getting worse.  I'm calling you on it.

Spoiler: Dates of posts from Deathsword (click to show/hide)

Tues 15th  (11th)
Tues 8th  (10th) apologies, defenses, IC voice.  No Scumhunting
Sat 5th  (9th)
Wed 2nd  (8th)
Tue 1st (7th) (IC voice, used only to excuse absence and announce expected future absence) No scumhunting
Fri 27th (6th) No scumhunting
Fri 27th (5th)
Thurs 26th (4th) No scumhunting
Wed 25th (3rd)
Wed 25th (2nd) (IC only) No scumhunting
Wed 25th (1st)

Last week you posted -once-.  And that post contained NO scumhunting.

Quote from: Deathsword on October 15, 2013, 12:34:23 pm

I am sorry for disappearing for the last two D1 days

We don't need apologies from you.  If you're Town we need help.  If you're a rolemodel, Town or not, we need an example of good play, which you are NOT giving us.

Now, last BM, you were Scum IC.  Presuming you -are- both Deathsword and Scumsword, in private chat (http://www.quicktopic.com/50/H/NrfEzTu4SHF4) those lucky scums got the benefit of 36 of your posts in just 39 days.  And here's what one of them says:

Quote

DO NOT, this is important, DO NOT speculate on night events. Focus on day and the day only. If someone starts speculating on the night, call them out on WIFOM. If they freak out, put pressure on them, ask why they got nervous. If not, just scumhunt as usual. 

Why, and for that matter, how dare you coddle your Scum that game with protective and helpful advice, and give us filth, with your IC voice, no less?  In the ongoing Witches Coven, the lack of a N1 kill got brief discussion.  The two N2 kills got discussion.  It's not the only thing being discussed by any means, but it's certainly not a taboo topic.

Night kills, even N1 kills, get some attention in Supernatural 1, 2 and 5.  Supernatural 3 and 4 discusses the lack of night kills (and 4 talks more about the ressurection of the D1 lynch).  Point being, players that look more experienced than us talk about night kills, or the lack of them, if they see reason to.  And -Scumsword-... aka Deathsword, are you not?... saw fit to explicitly and strongly warn his Scum off of talking about their night kill, "DO NOT, this is important, DO NOT" and instructed them to attack and stop anyone who speculated about it.  Why?  Because this is very dangerous for the Scum, who are the only players in the game who don't have to guess why and what the thought processes are?  And you dare try to use your IC voice to take away our belief in our freedom to talk about it like the more experienced players do should we choose?

Two BMs ago, you were IC and scum, and you lurked there too.  Got sick there too.

Quote from: Deathsword on April 22, 2013, 11:48:33 am

I'm currently very sick, I'll get another post with non-IC content tonight.

I'm really sorry your health's so bad you've gotten seriously sick twice in the same year.  Even without being sick people called for prods on you and complained about your inactivity.

Quote from: Deathsword on April 22, 2013, 09:25:34 pm

{I won't be able to get that post out after all.}

Even there, as Scum, you're making excuses in your IC voice.  I didn't distrust your IC voice, but I do now, as I do everything else about you.  From what I see, your play is tainted.  You're treating the game itself with disrespect and disregard.  I know all about being busy - I work 40 hours a week and am going to school almost full time.  I work in a lab now and didn't get home until after 10 PM because we have an inspection tomorrow.  Life's tough for everyone, yet you play game after game with garbage... oh, but you find or make time for your Scum when you were Scum IC.  Shame on you, giving -this game- so little.  Do better or die in this game, Deathsword.

Now lets talk about votes, since you disapprove so much of how I currently use mine.

Quote from: Deathsword on October 15, 2013, 12:34:23 pm

Imp: If you got nothing better to do with your vote, as you claim here:

Quote from: Imp on October 15, 2013, 01:49:17 am

Rolepgeek, I've got this vote and no better use for it right now.  If you're dead there's no need to replace your spot; and from close to start of play you've not really done much that seems pro-Town to me.  Your behavior isn't that bad of a Scum cover either.  I'm far from sure you're Scum but I'm far from sure you're Town either, so for the moment this works for me.  As long as you're seeking replacement I'm not going to ask you anything.

Then why not use it to pressure someone who can actually answer you? It seems as if you want to vote someone but don't really care who, and Rolepgeek provides a nice, safe target.

The only way you can make that claim about how I use my vote, and how I use pressure, is to disregard how I have played this game so far.  Considering how -you- have played this game so far, I'm not surprised at you at all.

I -am- using it on someone who -can- actually answer me.  But how are you using yours? You're not really scumhunting with your vote on me, because you're not really working or thinking, you're either just randomly pushing - taking the easy out that you accuse me of - or you're actively trying to control how I use my vote.  Shame on you for either, you IC jerk.   My vote is -mine-.  The pressure I place is -mine- to use as I see fit, be that pressure with words gentle, harsh, or supported at the time or later with a vote.  Get into this game and play, be the role model and player in this game that you are supposed to be, or die here for your failings.


Oh, hi there, Rolepgeek.  So...

Quote from: Rolepgeek on October 15, 2013, 09:58:30 pm

That's an extremely poor idea. Until I'm replaced, I am going to continue to play to the best of my ability.

Is how you have been playing 'to the best of your ability'?

Quote from: Rolepgeek on October 09, 2013, 09:59:09 pm

No...no, no, shit, I can't do it. I can't get the time and I'm getting too emotional to play. Well, that, and I can't get into the right mindset. I can't look deeply into posts, all I can do is stare at them. It's frustrating. I'm gonna have to ask for a replacement, sorry guys. Should have done this a while ago. I'll still answer questions and such, I just...I can't work up the motivation. Sorry.

This is the best of your ability?  Your end of D1 post, more evidence of the best of your ability?

Quote from: Rolepgeek on October 10, 2013, 09:57:05 pm

I don't have school tomorrow. HOWEVER, turns out I don't have extra time to do stuff, because I still have to get up at the same time.

Sorry. >.> Not planned.

Quote from: Imp on October 07, 2013, 02:16:03 am

You keep telling us stuff like this -

Quote from: Rolepgeek on October 02, 2013, 09:54:22 pm

Alright. I dislike having to do this again, but I can't do anything today, really, because I've been dealing with a lot of drama. Tomorrow I hope to be able to do a nice large post with the various things I want to say on it.

Quote from: Rolepgeek on October 01, 2013, 09:59:33 pm

And internet will shut off soon, so I need to cut this post short, though there may be a follow up.

Quote from: Rolepgeek on September 30, 2013, 10:24:11 pm

Alright, well, as a stopgap measure I'm gonna try to answer questions at the least on my IPad.

Quote from: Rolepgeek on September 30, 2013, 09:59:55 pm

Gah. Sorry. I have like two minutes to do this. I got a girlfriend. >.> I really wish I could respond, but when I say two minutes, I mean my internet will shut down in two minutes, and I'd rather not give hasty answers, and I'd rather not not post. I'll vote for an extend, too.

Now, this is your weekend too.  You've essentially told us you have drama issues, time issues, distraction in the form of new girlfriend issues - heck, you probably have other issues you're not bothering to mention, I know I do.  Relaxing and doing what you please is a big part of handling stress.

I figured, as I'm answering everyone else, lets make sure I didn't miss anything from you, so I checked your recent posts  (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?action=profile;area=showposts;u=88163) to be sure.

Dang!  32 posts elsewhere since you last posted here.  One of them impressive things has over 1000 words in it (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130929.msg4666197#msg4666197).  Are you surely sure you mean what you say when you say stuff like "Tomorrow I hope to be able to do a nice large post with the various things I want to say on it."[/spoiler]

I know what you've been showing all game.  And you still find time to play elsewhere, post dozens of posts in other DF threads in the last couple of days... Oh you have focus and you have self control, you just -won't- use it for this game now.  Maybe cause you're Scum.  For sure Scum can just skate through this game, and that's the kind of crud you're doing.  You're acting like Scum.  You have pages of posts to somehow manage to read, you have this entire game that you signed up for to play.  Do it.  Right now it seems pointless to question you - you're claiming you can't even read the thread.  Play, or die here.  You've got total control over your own behavior.

Quote from: Squill on October 16, 2013, 05:33:14 am

I'm really sorry I haven't been posting more, but I'm still mulling things over, and I have to leave for school in a few minutes.

Squill...

Quote from: Squill on October 16, 2013, 05:33:14 am

I'm really sorry I haven't been posting more, but I'm still mulling things over, and I have to leave for school in a few minutes.

...That's alright.  There's no rush for -anyone- to post at any specific time or day.  It's overall patterns.  Patterns of play and attention and involvement and intention... especially intention, that's maybe the truest way to find the Scum?  It seems to be how Scum have been found, and why they haven't been found, in some of the other games.

Superblackcat:  What's your take on all this?  The whole of it or little pieces of it, whatever you think is most important?  You, among others in this game, you've been to a D2 before.  What are we supposed to be doing now, and how?  Are you doing the best scumhunting you can?

To everyone....  You can't all be Scum.  Most of us have to be Town.  Town needs each Townperson's help or Town's probably gonna be lost.  This is our packing room 53.  Don't lurk.  Don't coast.  You joined this game to play - play.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 2 Robot, You - ONE REPLACEMENT NEEDED!
Post by: Teneb on October 16, 2013, 09:31:39 am

Quote from: Imp on October 16, 2013, 06:46:14 am

You're acting like you have this 'right to lurk', and you absolutely don't.

I am not, and at no point have I ever stated this. To the point I actually apologized for my low activity. How in any way is that acting as if I had a right to lurk?

Quote from: Imp on October 16, 2013, 06:46:14 am

Now, last BM, you were Scum IC.  Presuming you -are- both Deathsword and Scumsword, in private chat (http://www.quicktopic.com/50/H/NrfEzTu4SHF4) those lucky scums got the benefit of 36 of your posts in just 39 days.  And here's what one of them says:

Quote

DO NOT, this is important, DO NOT speculate on night events. Focus on day and the day only. If someone starts speculating on the night, call them out on WIFOM. If they freak out, put pressure on them, ask why they got nervous. If not, just scumhunt as usual. 

Why, and for that matter, how dare you coddle your Scum that game with protective and helpful advice, and give us filth, with your IC voice, no less?  In the ongoing Witches Coven, the lack of a N1 kill got brief discussion.  The two N2 kills got discussion.  It's not the only thing being discussed by any means, but it's certainly not a taboo topic.

Night kills, even N1 kills, get some attention in Supernatural 1, 2 and 5.  Supernatural 3 and 4 discusses the lack of night kills (and 4 talks more about the ressurection of the D1 lynch).  Point being, players that look more experienced than us talk about night kills, or the lack of them, if they see reason to.  And -Scumsword-... aka Deathsword, are you not?... saw fit to explicitly and strongly warn his Scum off of talking about their night kill, "DO NOT, this is important, DO NOT" and instructed them to attack and stop anyone who speculated about it.  Why?  Because this is very dangerous for the Scum, who are the only players in the game who don't have to guess why and what the thought processes are?  And you dare try to use your IC voice to take away our belief in our freedom to talk about it like the more experienced players do should we choose?

{I stand by my advice that speculating about the night is useless to either town or scum. You have the right to disagree. I fully believe in what I said about it, both as scum and as town. There are others who disagree, and like doing that. It is their call. Being a scum IC is actually pretty easy, as you do not have to think as a player, you do not have to scumhunt}

Quote from: Imp on October 16, 2013, 06:46:14 am

Two BMs ago, you were IC and scum, and you lurked there too.  Got sick there too.

Quote from: Deathsword on April 22, 2013, 11:48:33 am

I'm currently very sick, I'll get another post with non-IC content tonight.

I'm really sorry your health's so bad you've gotten seriously sick twice in the same year.  Even without being sick people called for prods on you and complained about your inactivity.

Quote from: Deathsword on April 22, 2013, 09:25:34 pm

{I won't be able to get that post out after all.}

I do not like to give much details about my personal life, but I'll say this: my health is complete and utter shit. I get sick quite frequently, whenever the air gets somewhat dry it feels as if my nose if trying to rip itself from the rest of my face and I've had to do two complete lung collapses (for absolutely no reason either) in the same year. When I say I am unable to post, it's because I really am, especially where my health is concerned.

Quote from: Imp on October 16, 2013, 06:46:14 am

Even there, as Scum, you're making excuses in your IC voice.  I didn't distrust your IC voice, but I do now, as I do everything else about you.  From what I see, your play is tainted.  You're treating the game itself with disrespect and disregard.  I know all about being busy - I work 40 hours a week and am going to school almost full time.  I work in a lab now and didn't get home until after 10 PM because we have an inspection tomorrow.  Life's tough for everyone, yet you play game after game with garbage... oh, but you find or make time for your Scum when you were Scum IC.  Shame on you, giving -this game- so little.  Do better or die in this game, Deathsword.

Being a scum IC is actually pretty easy, as you do not have to think as a player, you do not have to scumhunt.

Quote from: Imp on October 16, 2013, 06:46:14 am

Now lets talk about votes, since you disapprove so much of how I currently use mine.

Quote from: Deathsword on October 15, 2013, 12:34:23 pm

Imp: If you got nothing better to do with your vote, as you claim here:

Quote from: Imp on October 15, 2013, 01:49:17 am

Rolepgeek, I've got this vote and no better use for it right now.  If you're dead there's no need to replace your spot; and from close to start of play you've not really done much that seems pro-Town to me.  Your behavior isn't that bad of a Scum cover either.  I'm far from sure you're Scum but I'm far from sure you're Town either, so for the moment this works for me.  As long as you're seeking replacement I'm not going to ask you anything.

Then why not use it to pressure someone who can actually answer you? It seems as if you want to vote someone but don't really care who, and Rolepgeek provides a nice, safe target.

The only way you can make that claim about how I use my vote, and how I use pressure, is to disregard how I have played this game so far.  Considering how -you- have played this game so far, I'm not surprised at you at all.

I -am- using it on someone who -can- actually answer me.  But how are you using yours? You're not really scumhunting with your vote on me, because you're not really working or thinking, you're either just randomly pushing - taking the easy out that you accuse me of - or you're actively trying to control how I use my vote.  Shame on you for either, you IC jerk.   My vote is -mine-.  The pressure I place is -mine- to use as I see fit, be that pressure with words gentle, harsh, or supported at the time or later with a vote.  Get into this game and play, be the role model and player in this game that you are supposed to be, or die here for your failings.

Rolepgeek asked to replace. When someone asks for that, it usually means they stop posting. You yourself said you voted him because you had nothing else to do with said vote. Now you talk about your previous play, but it is this very same previous play that makes your disregard as to where your vote goes more glaring. Is the vote yours to use as you see fit? Yes. It still does not exempt you from being called out on it.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 2 Robot, You - ONE REPLACEMENT NEEDED!
Post by: Imp on October 16, 2013, 04:55:38 pm

Deathsword - Hope you feel better soon.

Quote from: Deathsword on October 16, 2013, 09:31:39 am

Quote from: Imp on October 16, 2013, 06:46:14 am

You're acting like you have this 'right to lurk', and you absolutely don't.

I am not, and at no point have I ever stated this. To the point I actually apologized for my low activity. How in any way is that acting as if I had a right to lurk?

I'm not saying 'you say you have that right' -  I am saying 'you act as if you have that right' and I say it because you have been doing it.  This:

Quote from: Imp on October 16, 2013, 06:46:14 am

Quote from: Deathsword on October 15, 2013, 12:34:23 pm

I am sorry for disappearing for the last two D1 days

We don't need apologies from you.  If you're Town we need help.  If you're a rolemodel, Town or not, we need an example of good play, which you are NOT giving us.

All of last week you made 1 post - only one post (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4670881#msg4670881).  That post contained no scumhunting and outside of a small amount of IC advice.  Are you hiding -from yourself- with an apology for 'The last two days'?  No two days are an issue.  The whole kit and caboodle across the course of the game is the issue.  Get off your behind and work for this Town.  This Town can't afford to carry you and your behavior is directly or indirectly helping the Scum - and you lack the inexperience to not know this.  Fix it.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 2 Robot, You - ONE REPLACEMENT NEEDED!
Post by: Imp on October 16, 2013, 05:00:17 pm

Quote from: Imp on October 16, 2013, 04:55:38 pm

That post contained no scumhunting and outside of a small amount of IC advice.

Should read:  "That post contained no scumhunting and outside of a small amount of IC advice, nothing but apology and deflection/explanation of misdirection in an earlier post you'd made - it is of minimal value for Town purposes."

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 2 Robot, You - ONE REPLACEMENT NEEDED!
Post by: Superblackcat on October 16, 2013, 11:16:41 pm

Deathsword, I'm glad you are back, but like Imp said. Since you have been gone for the past week or so, I have ignored you. Town lost an IC (and a player). You are worse than griffinup, purely do to the fact that you are IC, and you are supposed to be expierenced and all that. So, Make up for it!, Do something! Work! Go analyze all of d1's posts! (lol)

As of now, It seems everyone has figured out d2 has started, except Darvi.

@All, what do you think of the kills. Make all the WIFOM you want, I want to see WIFOM, point fingers, please.

(As you can see, I already did, and instantly got an "I'll post here later" response...)( It is kinda of lurking and suspicious to me.)

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 2 Robot, You - ONE REPLACEMENT NEEDED!
Post by: Squill on October 17, 2013, 05:22:54 am

Quote from: Superblackcat on October 16, 2013, 11:16:41 pm

Deathsword, I'm glad you are back, but like Imp said. Since you have been gone for the past week or so, I have ignored you. Town lost an IC (and a player). You are worse than griffinup, purely do to the fact that you are IC, and you are supposed to be expierenced and all that. So, Make up for it!, Do something! Work! Go analyze all of d1's posts! (lol)

As of now, It seems everyone has figured out d2 has started, except Darvi.

@All, what do you think of the kills. Make all the WIFOM you want, I want to see WIFOM, point fingers, please.

(As you can see, I already did, and instantly got an "I'll post here later" response...)( It is kinda of lurking and suspicious to me.)

@SBC: I think that Persus' killing was probably because he never really strongly accused someone. I think it happened because it was the kill that would give the least information.
Was there any reason anyone would want Persus dead? He didn't seem to be a direct threat to any players, scum or otherwise.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 2 Robot, You - ONE REPLACEMENT NEEDED!
Post by: Imp on October 17, 2013, 02:10:01 pm

Quote from: Imp on October 15, 2013, 01:49:17 am

Quote from: Squill on September 27, 2013, 05:01:28 pm

I still am not too confident in my skills at the game. Until I notice something that seems suspicious, I'm just going to try and avoid causing more confusion than is necessary.

What's the difference between this and lurking?  Confusion gives us something to look at, consider, and evaluate, - both about the confusion person, and also about everyone else that reacts and doesn't react to that confusion.  Kleril sure confused me, and he at least in part died for it - but this confusion evoked reactions and interactions not only between him and me, but involving most of the other players too.  Will you explain your views on how being careful is a more effective scumhunting method?

Squill?  Why are you not answering me?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 2 Robot, You - ONE REPLACEMENT NEEDED!
Post by: Squill on October 17, 2013, 02:43:55 pm

Quote from: Imp on October 17, 2013, 02:10:01 pm

Quote from: Imp on October 15, 2013, 01:49:17 am

Quote from: Squill on September 27, 2013, 05:01:28 pm

I still am not too confident in my skills at the game. Until I notice something that seems suspicious, I'm just going to try and avoid causing more confusion than is necessary.

What's the difference between this and lurking?  Confusion gives us something to look at, consider, and evaluate, - both about the confusion person, and also about everyone else that reacts and doesn't react to that confusion.  Kleril sure confused me, and he at least in part died for it - but this confusion evoked reactions and interactions not only between him and me, but involving most of the other players too.  Will you explain your views on how being careful is a more effective scumhunting method?

Squill?  Why are you not answering me?

Sorry, didn't see that. I feel kind of different now, I'm a bit more confident. At the time, my only experience with the game was being thrown in towards the very end of a game. While I still feel that careful conciseness is better than long winded fluff, I'm not quite as worried about doing nothing but getting in town's way. I think that it's mainly just a difference in personality.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 2 Robot, You - ONE REPLACEMENT NEEDED!
Post by: Imp on October 18, 2013, 01:39:48 am

Hey Darvi!

Remember this?

And when the morning begins, I have to get in
Before sunlight can fall upon my face

You really should be in by now  ::)

Superblackcat:

What I think about the night kill - Reading old Scumchats, most recommend to go for players that you think will be a problem for you.  Either because they're after you, which can be revealing, or because their active and likely to be of use to Town later in play.  Persus was that, whether he was actually already on Scum or not, he was active, analyzing, seemed open minded, rational, interested, was talking to everyone and getting answers in many cases.  I was scared he was Scum for a reason I already explained, but man he seems to have been a good pick for nightkill.  I posted the most - but he talked to everyone the most.  I wish I could trade places with him - maybe he'd have been able to get this Town talking again and I don't see how Town can possibly win this without more people talking more.


Everyone:
Here's what I think of each of the survivors right now:

Darvy - can't tell.  Seems to show Town and Scum tells.  Seems to have lost interest, or still be drunk on 'the night'.  When he was active, seemed to be more focused on teaching us to play than actually playing himself.  Did seem to want to teach us to play, thanks for that.

Squill - can't tell, hasn't shown himself clearly enough.  He seems to hate to talk, is willing to offer silence, and is apparently willing to accept silence from everyone.  That doesn't seem Town to me.  He looks great in comparison to Luke, but that's not saying anything.  Almost active enough for me to have a feel for - but almost is not quite.  May want to catch Scum, but sure not trying to do anything to make this happen/happen more easily.

Rolepgeek - Hasn't really played since the first couple days of the game.  Complained about players to focused on semantics (Mr.Zero, me).  Launched non-Scumhunting personal attack on me.  He sure doesn't seem to care about catching Scum or not.

Deathsword - Can't tell, way idle.  Almost no focus on teaching as IC or on scumhunting as player.  Probably a pattern for the player as a whole as meta.  Cited health and other real life issues limiting playability - but despite that, we need enough activity to judge him on - I haven't had that. He sure doesn't seem to care about catching Scum or not though.

Mr.Zero - I think he's Town.  Seems too tunneled on Cat to me, and to unconcerned about telling Scummy from Scum, but that's a pretty common human trait I'd guess.  I think he's trying to catch Scum, but that seems to be focused mostly on catching Scummy Cat.

Superblackcat - I've swung around to thinking Cat is Town.  Reason being Cat's talked a LOT, he's really shown several parts of how he reasons.  I can't tell for sure, but I think Cat just looks scummy and sometimes makes bad choices, but with Town intentions.  I'm by no means sure, but I think Cat has shown a pattern of play that I can follow and understand, and following it doesn't point to him as being Scum to me.  I don't think Cat could have played as he as if he is actually Scum.

I'm so depressed to be at this point of the game and to have this low level of activity.  We're not even getting updates on vote counts, so here's my best attempt at one:

1 1 1 1

Imp - Deathsword   Squill   Rolepgeek - Imp   Superblackcat - Mr.Zero   Mr.Zero - Superblackcat   Deathsword   Darvi

not voting:  Darvi, Rolepgeek, Squill
Extend - 0/3
Shorten - 0/4

Today will end on Friday, October 18th at midnight PST

So, questions for all:

Why so quiet?
Is anyone happy with the level of Scumhunting happening in this game?
If not, are you intending to do anything to help improve it?
If so, can you help me understand that things are going well, not terribly quiet, and why you think we're not going to a lurky town loss as is?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 2 Robot, You - ONE REPLACEMENT NEEDED!
Post by: zombie urist on October 18, 2013, 02:47:02 am

Sorry I'm really busy this week.

Prods will go out tomorrow at midnight though.  >:(

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 2 Robot, You - ONE REPLACEMENT NEEDED!
Post by: Mr.Zero on October 18, 2013, 03:48:52 am

oh shit, i forgot about this.
Extend please

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 2 Robot, You - ONE REPLACEMENT NEEDED!
Post by: Imp on October 18, 2013, 04:10:53 am

Extend, sure.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 2 Robot, You - ONE REPLACEMENT NEEDED!
Post by: Imp on October 18, 2013, 04:11:51 am

Doh, that depression.  Ahem, I meant to say "Extend".

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 2 Robot, You - ONE REPLACEMENT NEEDED!
Post by: Superblackcat on October 18, 2013, 12:14:35 pm

Extend Extend EXTEND!

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 2 Robot, You - ONE REPLACEMENT NEEDED!
Post by: Superblackcat on October 18, 2013, 12:15:42 pm

I'm curious Squill: Why didn't you extend?


It was in big bold letters: "Today will end on Oct 18 blah blah"

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 2 Robot, You - ONE REPLACEMENT NEEDED!
Post by: Teneb on October 18, 2013, 12:25:17 pm

Quote from: Imp on October 18, 2013, 01:39:48 am

Almost no focus on teaching as IC

Regarding this: as a whole, the remaining players here are doing pretty well, mechanics-wise. There is little at the moment that requires an IC explanation.

Quote from: Imp on October 18, 2013, 01:39:48 am

He sure doesn't seem to care about catching Scum or not though.

Well, I think you are scum, and am voting you over it.

Let me restate why: You just threw a vote on Rolepgeek because you could, because you had nothing better to do with it. In the quoted post you further list inactivity (which, I suppose, is a valid, if somewhat weak, reason) and a personal attack (IC stuff on this below). While the added reasons are nice, I am still concerned over the disregard over where your vote went, and, to be quite frank, I consider you to be, among the new players here, one of the most possibly dangerous if scum.

{On personal attacks: don't. Seriously, just don't. It adds nothing to the game, is of no benefit to anyone (town, scum, third-party) and can ruin the friendly (if agressive) nature of the game. What happens in the game stays in it, and you shouldn't hold a grudge or insult someone over it.}

Quote from: Imp on October 18, 2013, 01:39:48 am

If so, can you help me understand that things are going well, not terribly quiet, and why you think we're not going to a lurky town loss as is?

{BMs often tend to have periods of very low activity, especially as the game goes on. People often don't realise how long a mafia game can take.}

Extend

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 2 Robot, You - ONE REPLACEMENT NEEDED!
Post by: Imp on October 18, 2013, 01:53:19 pm

Quote from: Deathsword on October 18, 2013, 12:25:17 pm

You just threw a vote on Rolepgeek because you could, because you had nothing better to do with it.

You may have read what I said about my impressions of the six of us playing that are not me.

For -four- of us I have no solid feel; I find the scum-hunting efforts of -four- of us to be highly unsatisfactory (though some within that set are worse than others) (and of the rest of us, I'd like more too, because I'm not sure we're cutting it - yeah that means me too because we are a team and we succeed or fail as a team; if there's a way, anyway to get this working that my actions can help make happen, I'm duty bound to do it if I can find it).

My vote could have been placed on any of the four with my conscience comfortable; I selected the scummiest and hardest for me to read as of that point.

Quote from: Deathsword on October 18, 2013, 12:25:17 pm

While the added reasons are nice

Calling them 'added reasons' is bunk; or proof that you're not bothering to pay attention (they were also listed here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4671630#msg4671630), under all things Rolepgeek), or possibly that you arn't bothered to think up real reasons and are just grabbing what's recent and comfortable to deflect attention from the lacks in your play I have been increasingly pointing out.

At this point I could live with a lynch on any of these four: Rolepgeek, Deathsword, Darvi, Squill.  I'm not totally certain that my Town picks are Town, but they're sure a heck of a lot more Town-like than any of the rest of you, and they've both interacted enough for me to get a feel that allows me to think of them as Town.  Hint hint, if you're on my 'seems scummy list', that's a way to help confirm or deny your Townness - get more active.  Talk more, to me or anyone.  Show enough of yourself to be readable - and particularly show your scumhunting.

I am depressed to be near the end of day 2 and to have so little feel of so many players.  I want that fixed.  I don't know how to fix it myself.

You claim

Quote from: Deathsword on October 18, 2013, 12:25:17 pm

Quote from: Imp on October 18, 2013, 01:39:48 am

Almost no focus on teaching as IC

Regarding this: as a whole, the remaining players here are doing pretty well, mechanics-wise. There is little at the moment that requires an IC explanation.

So you're saying that this game is going just fine.  Activity is fine, interaction is fine, ...  Wow.  I call so much BS from you and what you say.

Why, you even wait until NOW!! to throw out an IC comment about don't personal attack.  More than ten days after it happened!

Quote from: Deathsword on October 18, 2013, 12:25:17 pm

to be quite frank, I consider you to be, among the new players here, one of the most possibly dangerous if scum.

On a theory level, I'm flattered and I hope to be very dangerous when Scum; on an actual level you're failing in your logic here.

The most dangerous Scum are the people who actually are Scum, in this game right now.  Those two as yet unfound people.  It's fine to go for me, but we cannot afford for you to ignore everyone else, or for you to tolerate low levels of interaction and scumhunting - and you appear to be doing both.  I do not protest that you call me and my actions Scum - I protest because you're being lazy about it.  You're not working, you're not using anything but convenient easy recent things to support your attack; you look like you're just going through the motions, not that you care about anything other than deflecting attention from yourself.  You're scumhunting scummily.

Whoever we lynch today, me or anyone, Town or Scum, that passes the edge from playtime to endtime.  Use today to prepare for Mylo.  Get AS MUCH information today as you can, because if today is a mislynch and tonight there's a kill, there's almost nothing left to work with.  Get active peeps.  Set yourselves up, work as a team so the Scum are also forced to work as a team or stand out - so that if we mislynch today we are in a great position for tomorrow.  Please, my partners.  Please get involved and active, so the Scum cannot stand beside you so easily.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 2 Robot, You - ONE REPLACEMENT NEEDED!
Post by: zombie urist on October 18, 2013, 02:14:31 pm

Day extended to Tuesday, Oct 22 9pm PST

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 2 Robot, You - ONE REPLACEMENT NEEDED!
Post by: Squill on October 18, 2013, 03:08:35 pm

Quote from: Superblackcat on October 18, 2013, 12:15:42 pm

I'm curious Squill: Why didn't you extend?


It was in big bold letters: "Today will end on Oct 18 blah blah"

Because I'm a god damn moron and I somehow thought that the day ended on Tuesday.

Alright, so lately the thread has had little activity.
Most people, including me, have posted little except for responding to direct questions. I think Imp is right about the need for more activity.
The main reason I've been so quiet is because that's the way I am. Excluding conversations with my three closest friends, I probably speak less than 300 words on the average day.
@Mr Zero:You have been inactive, even more so than me. Other than voting to extend, your last post was three days ago. Is there a reason for this?
@Deathsword:This post (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.300) could quite easily be construed as a scum fighting against the larger threat. Imp is by far the biggest scumhunter here, and you seem to be taking any chance you get to get rid of her before she turn's her attention on you.
@Darvi:You have not posted in this game day. Your last two posts were two silly things unrelated to the game eight days ago. You tried out some scumhunting, but when it didn't work you promptly fell silent. Are you unable to reply for whatever reason, or are you just lurking?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 2 Robot, You - ONE REPLACEMENT NEEDED!
Post by: Tiruin on October 18, 2013, 03:17:36 pm

Quote from: Imp on October 18, 2013, 01:39:48 am

[...]
I'm so depressed to be at this point of the game and to have this low level of activity.  We're not even getting updates on vote counts[....]

I fail forever. u_u
Curse my sleep and timezones.

---

A small melody chimes from the wind, differentiating into miniscule octaves visible only to augmented hearing.

          All turn their visors towards the tiny orb, and see the timer click.

          They return their sights onto those they suspect.

          Time is endless.

1 1 1 1 1 2

Imp - Deathsword   Squill   Rolepgeek - Imp   Superblackcat - Mr.Zero   Mr.Zero - Superblackcat   Deathsword   Darvi - Squill   Not Voting: Rolepgeek, Darvi

Rolepgeek has asked for a replacement!


Extend - 0/3
Shorten - 0/4

Today will end on Tuesday, October 22nd at 9pm PST (http://www.timeanddate.com/countdown/generic?iso=20131023T13&p0=145&msg=Day+2+End&csz=1)

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I've converted PST (-8 GMT) to my timezone = +8 GMT

Quote from: zombie urist on October 18, 2013, 02:14:31 pm

Day extended to Tuesday, Oct 22 9pm PST

Oh c'mon. 9pm PST? D:

Hmph. Updated.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 2 Robot, You - ONE REPLACEMENT NEEDED!
Post by: Imp on October 18, 2013, 04:18:52 pm

Oh Tiruin.  To me you're still my mentor here, you're still the person in this thread I feel the most comfort and rightness in buddying.  For this you pass forever, even if you also for other reasons fail.

Hey Squill!

Going to encourage you to talk about a few more things, hope you'll be willing to.

Would you discuss your evaluation, in terms of Town/Scum/null tell, for the play so far of Mr.Zero?  Would you do the same for Deathsword?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 2 Robot, You - ONE REPLACEMENT NEEDED!
Post by: Superblackcat on October 18, 2013, 06:55:57 pm

Pssst Can we get a prod for everyone that is not me, Squill, Imp, DS, or MrZero ( ithink that's only Darvi left)

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 2 Robot, You - ONE REPLACEMENT NEEDED!
Post by: Rolepgeek on October 18, 2013, 08:28:17 pm

Ugh...I keep putting this off, and putting this off, and putting this off. Frustrated with myself. Because I want to play the game. I really do. But let's begin as usual by answering questions.

Quote from: Superblackcat on October 15, 2013, 10:36:59 pm

@RPG why is killing persus confusing?

I don't know if it is. Indeed, I never said if it was or not. It was Mr. Zero who said it was confusing. So, I would advise you to ask him.

If you want my opinion, however, I don't think it's particularly confusing, though it sheds very little light on the situation, since none of the people being accused were night-killed, and he was voting Kleril, I believe. Just scum waiting it out, I suppose.

Quote from: Imp on October 16, 2013, 06:46:14 am

Oh, hi there, Rolepgeek.  So...

Quote from: Rolepgeek on October 15, 2013, 09:58:30 pm

That's an extremely poor idea. Until I'm replaced, I am going to continue to play to the best of my ability.

Is how you have been playing 'to the best of your ability'?

Yes. It has been. The best of my ability has been pretty poor, I'll admit, but Mafia, with it's myriad quotes and intricacies, is a bit more difficult than describing how I'm going to bash someone's skull in with a hammer.

Quote from: Imp on October 16, 2013, 06:46:14 am

Quote from: Rolepgeek on October 09, 2013, 09:59:09 pm

No...no, no, shit, I can't do it. I can't get the time and I'm getting too emotional to play. Well, that, and I can't get into the right mindset. I can't look deeply into posts, all I can do is stare at them. It's frustrating. I'm gonna have to ask for a replacement, sorry guys. Should have done this a while ago. I'll still answer questions and such, I just...I can't work up the motivation. Sorry.

This is the best of your ability?  Your end of D1 post, more evidence of the best of your ability?

Quote from: Rolepgeek on October 10, 2013, 09:57:05 pm

I don't have school tomorrow. HOWEVER, turns out I don't have extra time to do stuff, because I still have to get up at the same time.

Sorry. >.> Not planned.

Yep. This is why I'm asking for a replacement. I thought I would have more time(and motivation) than I turned out to, during the school year.

Quote from: Imp on October 16, 2013, 06:46:14 am

Quote from: Imp on October 07, 2013, 02:16:03 am

You keep telling us stuff like this -

Quote from: Rolepgeek on October 02, 2013, 09:54:22 pm

Alright. I dislike having to do this again, but I can't do anything today, really, because I've been dealing with a lot of drama. Tomorrow I hope to be able to do a nice large post with the various things I want to say on it.

Quote from: Rolepgeek on October 01, 2013, 09:59:33 pm

And internet will shut off soon, so I need to cut this post short, though there may be a follow up.

Quote from: Rolepgeek on September 30, 2013, 10:24:11 pm

Alright, well, as a stopgap measure I'm gonna try to answer questions at the least on my IPad.

Quote from: Rolepgeek on September 30, 2013, 09:59:55 pm

Gah. Sorry. I have like two minutes to do this. I got a girlfriend. >.> I really wish I could respond, but when I say two minutes, I mean my internet will shut down in two minutes, and I'd rather not give hasty answers, and I'd rather not not post. I'll vote for an extend, too.

Now, this is your weekend too.  You've essentially told us you have drama issues, time issues, distraction in the form of new girlfriend issues - heck, you probably have other issues you're not bothering to mention, I know I do.  Relaxing and doing what you please is a big part of handling stress.

I figured, as I'm answering everyone else, lets make sure I didn't miss anything from you, so I checked your recent posts  (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?action=profile;area=showposts;u=88163) to be sure.

Dang!  32 posts elsewhere since you last posted here.  One of them impressive things has over 1000 words in it (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130929.msg4666197#msg4666197).  Are you surely sure you mean what you say when you say stuff like "Tomorrow I hope to be able to do a nice large post with the various things I want to say on it."[/spoiler]

I know what you've been showing all game.  And you still find time to play elsewhere, post dozens of posts in other DF threads in the last couple of days... Oh you have focus and you have self control, you just -won't- use it for this game now.  Maybe cause you're Scum.  For sure Scum can just skate through this game, and that's the kind of crud you're doing.  You're acting like Scum.  You have pages of posts to somehow manage to read, you have this entire game that you signed up for to play.  Do it.  Right now it seems pointless to question you - you're claiming you can't even read the thread.  Play, or die here.  You've got total control over your own behavior.

Oh, I've read most of it. That's not the problem. The problem is that last game, I could get into it. I could settle down, read the thread a few times(to be honest Imp, part of the problem is the sheer volume of posts, and the sheer number of them. In one day. One.), and really suspect people of this or that. That may be because I was involved in fewer other games, and had more time to spare. But currently? Instead of it being fun to suspect everyone and pressure them as much as I could, it feels more like a chore. An obligation that I have to fulfill, but can't get up the nerve to do it; after all, why do this when I could go look at my other games?
But no. It's not pointless to question me. It would only be pointless to question me if I was confirmed town or scum. As it is, I have a question for you. How would you be able to know for sure who would die? You said something similar to Deathsword, but you can't lynch two people, let alone know who would die. Unless, of course, you knew who would be night-killed. But that would make you scum, wouldn't it?

Quote from: Imp on October 16, 2013, 06:46:14 am

Deathsword.  I'm seriously disappointed in you now, in you as a player and in you as an 'example of how to play', which is what I believed an IC would act as.

You're acting like you have this 'right to lurk', and you absolutely don't.

Just look at your posts on lurker (http://www.ocf.berkeley.edu/~azhou/projects/LT/zt.py?topic=130600&start=0&msg=4635015&sort=user&numreplace=2&replaced0=griffinpup&replacer0=Darvi&replaced1=Lukeinator&replacer1=Persus13&player0=Tiruin&label0=np&numlabel=1) - This whole game you've only made 11.  I double checked them all;  two of the 11 have been only use of IC voice, and including those, 5 of them have had nothing I can recognize in any fashion as scumhunting.  I'm being really generous in this assessment.  Anything resembling a question, anything resembling analysis; anything more than answering questions, apologies, or IC voice I'm calling 'scumhunting' - it doesn't seem to be a joke, and even if it is, I'm calling it garbage.  Your activity and effort in this game, at least inside this thread, has been poor and steadily getting worse.  I'm calling you on it.

So. As you've shown us, Deathsword is even less active than me. So why are you voting me, and not him? You obviously think he's worthless as an IC. So what's your reason in going after me in particular? Is it because I 'personally attacked you'? You know, where I criticized your playstyle?

Almost like you're doing here. Huh. Weird.

Quote from: Imp on October 16, 2013, 06:46:14 am

Now, last BM, you were Scum IC.  Presuming you -are- both Deathsword and Scumsword, in private chat (http://www.quicktopic.com/50/H/NrfEzTu4SHF4) those lucky scums got the benefit of 36 of your posts in just 39 days.  And here's what one of them says:

Quote

DO NOT, this is important, DO NOT speculate on night events. Focus on day and the day only. If someone starts speculating on the night, call them out on WIFOM. If they freak out, put pressure on them, ask why they got nervous. If not, just scumhunt as usual. 

Why, and for that matter, how dare you coddle your Scum that game with protective and helpful advice, and give us filth, with your IC voice, no less?  In the ongoing Witches Coven, the lack of a N1 kill got brief discussion.  The two N2 kills got discussion.  It's not the only thing being discussed by any means, but it's certainly not a taboo topic.

Night kills, even N1 kills, get some attention in Supernatural 1, 2 and 5.  Supernatural 3 and 4 discusses the lack of night kills (and 4 talks more about the ressurection of the D1 lynch).  Point being, players that look more experienced than us talk about night kills, or the lack of them, if they see reason to.  And -Scumsword-... aka Deathsword, are you not?... saw fit to explicitly and strongly warn his Scum off of talking about their night kill, "DO NOT, this is important, DO NOT" and instructed them to attack and stop anyone who speculated about it.  Why?  Because this is very dangerous for the Scum, who are the only players in the game who don't have to guess why and what the thought processes are?  And you dare try to use your IC voice to take away our belief in our freedom to talk about it like the more experienced players do should we choose?

So, to summarize. 'Other mafia games talk about it, so why shouldn't we talk about it'? Along with a hearty helping of 'You aren't giving the advice I want you to, therefore you're abusing the IC voice'.

Actually, wait a second. This doesn't have anything to do with anything. You're basically criticizing him for doing a good job in a different game. What? Do you think people always have the same amount of time available? Or are you just upset about the reasoning in that advice?

Quote from: Imp on October 16, 2013, 06:46:14 am

Two BMs ago, you were IC and scum, and you lurked there too.  Got sick there too.

Quote from: Deathsword on April 22, 2013, 11:48:33 am

I'm currently very sick, I'll get another post with non-IC content tonight.

I'm really sorry your health's so bad you've gotten seriously sick twice in the same year.  Even without being sick people called for prods on you and complained about your inactivity.

So...you think he's lying? Is that what it is? Why? Because you think it's unlikely, based on your highly in-detail knowledge of Deathsword's RL health?

Quote from: Imp on October 16, 2013, 06:46:14 am

Quote from: Deathsword on April 22, 2013, 09:25:34 pm

{I won't be able to get that post out after all.}

Even there, as Scum, you're making excuses in your IC voice.  I didn't distrust your IC voice, but I do now, as I do everything else about you.  From what I see, your play is tainted.  You're treating the game itself with disrespect and disregard.  I know all about being busy - I work 40 hours a week and am going to school almost full time.  I work in a lab now and didn't get home until after 10 PM because we have an inspection tomorrow.  Life's tough for everyone, yet you play game after game with garbage... oh, but you find or make time for your Scum when you were Scum IC.  Shame on you, giving -this game- so little.  Do better or die in this game, Deathsword.

Hey, look, 'personal attacks' and ultimatums without the ability to back them up! You're even claiming he's abusing the IC voice! Nicely done, Imp. New levels of hypocrisy. Which segues nicely into the next quote.

Quote from: Imp on October 16, 2013, 06:46:14 am

Now lets talk about votes, since you disapprove so much of how I currently use mine.

Quote from: Deathsword on October 15, 2013, 12:34:23 pm

Imp: If you got nothing better to do with your vote, as you claim here:

Quote from: Imp on October 15, 2013, 01:49:17 am

Rolepgeek, I've got this vote and no better use for it right now.  If you're dead there's no need to replace your spot; and from close to start of play you've not really done much that seems pro-Town to me.  Your behavior isn't that bad of a Scum cover either.  I'm far from sure you're Scum but I'm far from sure you're Town either, so for the moment this works for me.  As long as you're seeking replacement I'm not going to ask you anything.

Then why not use it to pressure someone who can actually answer you? It seems as if you want to vote someone but don't really care who, and Rolepgeek provides a nice, safe target.

The only way you can make that claim about how I use my vote, and how I use pressure, is to disregard how I have played this game so far.  Considering how -you- have played this game so far, I'm not surprised at you at all.

I -am- using it on someone who -can- actually answer me.  But how are you using yours? You're not really scumhunting with your vote on me, because you're not really working or thinking, you're either just randomly pushing - taking the easy out that you accuse me of - or you're actively trying to control how I use my vote.  Shame on you for either, you IC jerk.   My vote is -mine-.  The pressure I place is -mine- to use as I see fit, be that pressure with words gentle, harsh, or supported at the time or later with a vote.  Get into this game and play, be the role model and player in this game that you are supposed to be, or die here for your failings.

Well, if you don't question me, I can't answer you. So...there's that, first off. And while I would disagree about why you've voted me, (unlike Deathsword, I think it's because you have a personal vendetta against me on the grounds of me calling you on your bullshit, even a little) he has a point. If I can't be bothered to read the thread like you say, there is no point in voting me.

Next part of it. I don't see how it's taking an easy out. It gets worse when, as Deathsword noted as well, you look at your reasoning for voting me, and then your claimed reasoning for why his vote is bad. 'No better use for it' vs. 'randomly pushing'. They seem very similar to me. As for controlling how you vote...it's pretty hypocritical for you to say that, since you're trying to control how other people post and play in this game, period(as far as I can tell, with the saying 'Get into this game and play...or die for your failings'. The middle of it is left out, and can be seen above. Context.

Finally, how would you kill him, exactly? Are you able to control the outcome of a lynch? Perhaps you can ensure he dies if he continues to annoy you with a NK? Interesting ideas, I would say.

Quote from: Deathsword on October 16, 2013, 09:31:39 am

Quote from: Imp on October 16, 2013, 06:46:14 am

Now lets talk about votes, since you disapprove so much of how I currently use mine.

Quote from: Deathsword on October 15, 2013, 12:34:23 pm

Imp: If you got nothing better to do with your vote, as you claim here:

Quote from: Imp on October 15, 2013, 01:49:17 am

Rolepgeek, I've got this vote and no better use for it right now.  If you're dead there's no need to replace your spot; and from close to start of play you've not really done much that seems pro-Town to me.  Your behavior isn't that bad of a Scum cover either.  I'm far from sure you're Scum but I'm far from sure you're Town either, so for the moment this works for me.  As long as you're seeking replacement I'm not going to ask you anything.

Then why not use it to pressure someone who can actually answer you? It seems as if you want to vote someone but don't really care who, and Rolepgeek provides a nice, safe target.

The only way you can make that claim about how I use my vote, and how I use pressure, is to disregard how I have played this game so far.  Considering how -you- have played this game so far, I'm not surprised at you at all.

I -am- using it on someone who -can- actually answer me.  But how are you using yours? You're not really scumhunting with your vote on me, because you're not really working or thinking, you're either just randomly pushing - taking the easy out that you accuse me of - or you're actively trying to control how I use my vote.  Shame on you for either, you IC jerk.   My vote is -mine-.  The pressure I place is -mine- to use as I see fit, be that pressure with words gentle, harsh, or supported at the time or later with a vote.  Get into this game and play, be the role model and player in this game that you are supposed to be, or die here for your failings.

Rolepgeek asked to replace. When someone asks for that, it usually means they stop posting. You yourself said you voted him because you had nothing else to do with said vote. Now you talk about your previous play, but it is this very same previous play that makes your disregard as to where your vote goes more glaring. Is the vote yours to use as you see fit? Yes. It still does not exempt you from being called out on it.

As an addition, Imp, you never responded to this portion of his post.

Quote from: Imp on October 18, 2013, 01:39:48 am

Superblackcat:

What I think about the night kill - Reading old Scumchats, most recommend to go for players that you think will be a problem for you.  Either because they're after you, which can be revealing, or because their active and likely to be of use to Town later in play.  Persus was that, whether he was actually already on Scum or not, he was active, analyzing, seemed open minded, rational, interested, was talking to everyone and getting answers in many cases.  I was scared he was Scum for a reason I already explained, but man he seems to have been a good pick for nightkill.  I posted the most - but he talked to everyone the most.  I wish I could trade places with him - maybe he'd have been able to get this Town talking again and I don't see how Town can possibly win this without more people talking more.

I think if their purpose was to get rid of the active players, they would have killed you. It's more likely that the scum were trying to kill someone that would leave the most fingers pointing at each other; we were all at each other's throats for day one, after all. Still are, though the throats and the knives have been switched up.

Quote from: Imp on October 18, 2013, 01:39:48 am

Squill - can't tell, hasn't shown himself clearly enough.  He seems to hate to talk, is willing to offer silence, and is apparently willing to accept silence from everyone.  That doesn't seem Town to me.  He looks great in comparison to Luke, but that's not saying anything.  Almost active enough for me to have a feel for - but almost is not quite.  May want to catch Scum, but sure not trying to do anything to make this happen/happen more easily.

It seems like you're trying to avoid going one way or the other. Which seems scummy. After all, if people start trying to lynch him, you can get behind it without being (too much) of a hypocrite. But if he gets NKed, or lynched, and turns up town, you can still hide behind it, since you weren't the first person to suggest it, or the second, or the third, etc.

Quote from: Imp on October 18, 2013, 01:39:48 am

Rolepgeek - Hasn't really played since the first couple days of the game.  Complained about players to focused on semantics (Mr.Zero, me).  Launched non-Scumhunting personal attack on me.  He sure doesn't seem to care about catching Scum or not.

Yes, that's it. It was a personal attack. Totally. [/sarcasm] Leaving aside the part where you're doing the same thing.

Quote from: Imp on October 18, 2013, 01:39:48 am

Deathsword - Can't tell, way idle.  Almost no focus on teaching as IC or on scumhunting as player.  Probably a pattern for the player as a whole as meta.  Cited health and other real life issues limiting playability - but despite that, we need enough activity to judge him on - I haven't had that. He sure doesn't seem to care about catching Scum or not though.

He's probably more concerned with RL issues. Not that he's been doing the best job as an IC, but I'm not going to blame him for something like that.

Quote from: Imp on October 18, 2013, 01:39:48 am

Mr.Zero - I think he's Town.  Seems too tunneled on Cat to me, and to unconcerned about telling Scummy from Scum, but that's a pretty common human trait I'd guess.  I think he's trying to catch Scum, but that seems to be focused mostly on catching Scummy Cat.

So when Mr.Zero looks like he's tunneling someone else to you, it's okay. When you think someone else is doing it to you, it's not only scummy, but a personal attack. Alright, then.

Quote from: Imp on October 18, 2013, 01:39:48 am

Superblackcat - I've swung around to thinking Cat is Town.  Reason being Cat's talked a LOT, he's really shown several parts of how he reasons.  I can't tell for sure, but I think Cat just looks scummy and sometimes makes bad choices, but with Town intentions.  I'm by no means sure, but I think Cat has shown a pattern of play that I can follow and understand, and following it doesn't point to him as being Scum to me.  I don't think Cat could have played as he as if he is actually Scum.

Why not? He turned on kleril easily enough once he realized people thought there was something between them. Self-preservation isn't exactly a towny quality. It's a scum one.

Quote from: Imp on October 18, 2013, 01:39:48 am

I'm so depressed to be at this point of the game and to have this low level of activity.

This isn't low activity. From some players certainly, but there's as much or more activity than my previous game, I'd say. It's just that it's more heavily weighted towards a few players who are on constantly, vs. players who don't give themselves the time they should to play. Since you're one of the people posting, it seems low activity in comparison to your own posts.

Quote from: Imp on October 18, 2013, 01:39:48 am

So, questions for all:

Why so quiet?
Is anyone happy with the level of Scumhunting happening in this game?
If not, are you intending to do anything to help improve it?
If so, can you help me understand that things are going well, not terribly quiet, and why you think we're not going to a lurky town loss as is?

1. Because I have issues related to procrastination, and when there's no deadline...No, I don't consider Night a deadline, because we keep on extending it.
2. Yes. Unfortunately, I'll probably procrastinate on that too. But hey, I can always try...
3. I doubt we're going to lose. As long as we can get just one scum, our odds drastically improve, statistically and otherwise. More time to get the next one, info on who tried to help them, etc.

Quote from: Imp on October 18, 2013, 01:53:19 pm

Quote from: Deathsword on October 18, 2013, 12:25:17 pm

You just threw a vote on Rolepgeek because you could, because you had nothing better to do with it.

You may have read what I said about my impressions of the six of us playing that are not me.

For -four- of us I have no solid feel; I find the scum-hunting efforts of -four- of us to be highly unsatisfactory (though some within that set are worse than others) (and of the rest of us, I'd like more too, because I'm not sure we're cutting it - yeah that means me too because we are a team and we succeed or fail as a team; if there's a way, anyway to get this working that my actions can help make happen, I'm duty bound to do it if I can find it).

My vote could have been placed on any of the four with my conscience comfortable; I selected the scummiest and hardest for me to read as of that point.

Ah. Well, then. Why wasn't that said at the beginning, when you voted me? He said you threw it on me because you had nothing better to do with it at the time, because that's why you claimed you put it on me. This sounds like you're coming up with something after the fact, because you didn't have a good reason when you voted me.

Quote from: Imp on October 18, 2013, 01:53:19 pm

Quote from: Deathsword on October 18, 2013, 12:25:17 pm

While the added reasons are nice

Calling them 'added reasons' is bunk; or proof that you're not bothering to pay attention (they were also listed here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4671630#msg4671630), under all things Rolepgeek), or possibly that you arn't bothered to think up real reasons and are just grabbing what's recent and comfortable to deflect attention from the lacks in your play I have been increasingly pointing out.

At this point I could live with a lynch on any of these four: Rolepgeek, Deathsword, Darvi, Squill.  I'm not totally certain that my Town picks are Town, but they're sure a heck of a lot more Town-like than any of the rest of you, and they've both interacted enough for me to get a feel that allows me to think of them as Town.  Hint hint, if you're on my 'seems scummy list', that's a way to help confirm or deny your Townness - get more active.  Talk more, to me or anyone.  Show enough of yourself to be readable - and particularly show your scumhunting.

I am depressed to be near the end of day 2 and to have so little feel of so many players.  I want that fixed.  I don't know how to fix it myself.

But that's what they are. Added reasons. You stated your primary reason, and the rest are secondary. Order of operations, so to speak. Besides the semantics of the situation, where calling them added reasons doesn't matter one way or another anyway.
See, being okay with a lynch on over half the players we have now is not a particularly town move. It seems really scummy to me, when looked at from that perspective, in fact; 1 scum buddy, one 'oh he's not scum anymore' to leave for when the game is at it's end, and the rest you can mislynch.

Quote from: Imp on October 18, 2013, 01:53:19 pm

You claim

Quote from: Deathsword on October 18, 2013, 12:25:17 pm

Quote from: Imp on October 18, 2013, 01:39:48 am

Almost no focus on teaching as IC

Regarding this: as a whole, the remaining players here are doing pretty well, mechanics-wise. There is little at the moment that requires an IC explanation.

So you're saying that this game is going just fine.  Activity is fine, interaction is fine, ...  Wow.  I call so much BS from you and what you say.

Why, you even wait until NOW!! to throw out an IC comment about don't personal attack.  More than ten days after it happened!

No, that's not what he's saying. He's saying everyone understands the mechanics of the game and how to play. Which is true, even if not everyone is playing actively.

Second comment is non sequitur...

Quote from: Imp on October 18, 2013, 01:53:19 pm

Quote from: Deathsword on October 18, 2013, 12:25:17 pm

to be quite frank, I consider you to be, among the new players here, one of the most possibly dangerous if scum.

On a theory level, I'm flattered and I hope to be very dangerous when Scum; on an actual level you're failing in your logic here.

Reasons, here. You of all people should know you can't say that and not give specifics.

Quote from: Imp on October 18, 2013, 01:53:19 pm

The most dangerous Scum are the people who actually are Scum, in this game right now.  Those two as yet unfound people.  It's fine to go for me, but we cannot afford for you to ignore everyone else, or for you to tolerate low levels of interaction and scumhunting - and you appear to be doing both.  I do not protest that you call me and my actions Scum - I protest because you're being lazy about it.  You're not working, you're not using anything but convenient easy recent things to support your attack; you look like you're just going through the motions, not that you care about anything other than deflecting attention from yourself.  You're scumhunting scummily.

No really? The scum who are actually scum are the dangerous ones? Now that the obvious has been stated, let's look at the rest. You can't ignore everyone else. But that's what extends are for. We pressure you until you crack, and then we pressure the others for a feel on who your buddy is until the end of the day when you get lynched. Or, if you really are town, we pressure you until you crack in a different way, and then we move on and look at your posts with a new light.

Quote from: Imp on October 18, 2013, 01:53:19 pm

Whoever we lynch today, me or anyone, Town or Scum, that passes the edge from playtime to endtime.  Use today to prepare for Mylo.  Get AS MUCH information today as you can, because if today is a mislynch and tonight there's a kill, there's almost nothing left to work with.  Get active peeps.  Set yourselves up, work as a team so the Scum are also forced to work as a team or stand out - so that if we mislynch today we are in a great position for tomorrow.  Please, my partners.  Please get involved and active, so the Scum cannot stand beside you so easily.[/b]

I would say the same to you.

Quote from: Squill on October 18, 2013, 03:08:35 pm

Quote from: Superblackcat on October 18, 2013, 12:15:42 pm

I'm curious Squill: Why didn't you extend?


It was in big bold letters: "Today will end on Oct 18 blah blah"

Because I'm a god damn moron and I somehow thought that the day ended on Tuesday.

Bull shit. The day ends on tuesday, now. If you had answered with something about not being here to see it, it might have made sense. But now it just looks like excuses made up after the fact.

Quote from: Imp on October 18, 2013, 04:18:52 pm

Oh Tiruin.  To me you're still my mentor here, you're still the person in this thread I feel the most comfort and rightness in buddying.  For this you pass forever, even if you also for other reasons fail.

Hey Squill!

Going to encourage you to talk about a few more things, hope you'll be willing to.

Would you discuss your evaluation, in terms of Town/Scum/null tell, for the play so far of Mr.Zero?  Would you do the same for Deathsword?

What? While encouraging players to talk is great and all, especially when you don't insult them or their playstyle, why would you buddy Tiruin? Especially if you think I'm scum, and he'd be replacing me. This would seem suspicious if not for the fact that he isn't playing. >.>

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 2 Robot, You - ONE REPLACEMENT NEEDED!
Post by: Imp on October 19, 2013, 05:28:06 am

Rolepgeek:  Welcome back again.

---

I'm going in order through your post, so I'll start here:

Quote from: Rolepgeek on October 18, 2013, 08:28:17 pm

I don't know if it is. Indeed, I never said if it was or not. It was Mr. Zero who said it was confusing. So, I would advise you to ask him.

If you want my opinion, however, I don't think it's particularly confusing, though it sheds very little light on the situation, since none of the people being accused were night-killed, and he was voting Kleril, I believe. Just scum waiting it out, I suppose.

Spoiler: all relevant previous quotes, with what I'm wondering about highlight orange (click to show/hide)

Quote from: Rolepgeek on September 26, 2013, 05:31:54 pm

Quote from: Mr.Zero on September 25, 2013, 03:03:27 am

@Rolepgeek: If you would be a mafia member, would you try to NK one or more IC's regarding their higher experience?

Strange sentence structure there. But the answer is no. ICs may be more experienced, but is is a learning game, and if the ICs are dead, they are less likely to talk, and give valuable information for later games.

Quote from: Rolepgeek on September 28, 2013, 09:12:30 pm

To clarify; I would not night-kill them based solely on their experience. I would try to night-kill in such a way to sow dissent and confusion, and killing the ICs doesn't necessarily do that. And, since I'm still learning, it's good to let them do stuff and give IC advice, which NQT did far less last game after he was NKed.

Quote from: Mr.Zero on October 15, 2013, 03:02:31 am

Quote from: Superblackcat on October 15, 2013, 01:02:38 am

Anyway, what is your thoughts on these outcomes? Especially directed to Imp and MrZero, as kleril came up vanilla. There was noone that suspected Persus or anything... So it makes me think it's more off a Squill type thing to do. However, This is all speculation.

The lynch? Not surprising, i didn't have him on my radar cause he didn't send me scum vibes.
The NK? I'm not exactly sure, but i feel that they eliminated a 'nobody' cause eliminating the high aggressors may have a very suspicious outcome.

Quote from: Rolepgeek on September 28, 2013, 09:12:30 pm

To clarify; I would not night-kill them based solely on their experience. I would try to night-kill in such a way to sow dissent and confusion, and killing the ICs doesn't necessarily do that.

Well, i'm very sure that Persus13 NK is confusing, what do you say about this statement of yours?

Quote from: Rolepgeek on October 15, 2013, 09:58:30 pm

As for the Persus NK and my statement, that means the scum is playing smart, is all. All scum would want to confuse us. It makes it harder to find them. Or of course, they could be trying to shove suspicion on me.

Quote from: Rolepgeek on October 18, 2013, 08:28:17 pm

Quote from: Superblackcat on October 15, 2013, 10:36:59 pm

@RPG why is killing persus confusing?

I don't know if it is. Indeed, I never said if it was or not. It was Mr. Zero who said it was confusing. So, I would advise you to ask him.

Please explain your thinking on why the Persus NK was smart?  I happen to think it was too, but I'd like to know your reasoning.  And explain how that night kill choice might have been chosen to shove suspicion on you?

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Quote from: Rolepgeek on October 18, 2013, 08:28:17 pm

Quote from: Imp on October 16, 2013, 06:46:14 am

Right now it seems pointless to question you - you're claiming you can't even read the thread.

Oh, I've read most of it. That's not the problem.

I understood you were not reading the thread (staring at it sometimes, yes, but NOT reading it) because you said so, and then gave no indication until your most recent post that this had changed.

Spoiler: Wherein Rolepgeek repeatedly makes Imp think that RPG isn't following/reading/understanding the thread (click to show/hide)

Quote from: Rolepgeek on October 07, 2013, 10:57:49 pm

Quote

@Superblackcat, reply #176, concerning my top scums and FoS.

I'll get back to you. I need to look through the posts, and badly. Harass me if I don't get back to this.

Quote

@Persus, reply #181, multiple questions; Opinion post-behemoth, Opinions about Imp's accusations, and Reasoning for not posting

About everything post behemoth, I can't say anything yet. I still need to sweep through and process everything.

Huh. Thought there'd be more questions. Time for the more detailed sweep and cursory thoughts to answer SBC and Persus.

Alright, now for the sweep.

Ffffuuuuuu-
Of course there's too many little things I want to dig at for me to get all of them. Figures.

Quote from: Rolepgeek on October 08, 2013, 10:04:36 pm

Posting to show I'm not ignoring this. Put it off too long to be able to post it tonight, but I've got the post saved on my computer. Will finish it and post it tomorrow. It has all my answers and such, and more.

Unless one of you knows how to copy/paste from it to my IPad, of course.

Quote from: Rolepgeek on October 09, 2013, 09:59:09 pm

No...no, no, shit, I can't do it. I can't get the time and I'm getting too emotional to play. Well, that, and I can't get into the right mindset. I can't look deeply into posts, all I can do is stare at them. It's frustrating. I'm gonna have to ask for a replacement, sorry guys. Should have done this a while ago. I'll still answer questions and such, I just...I can't work up the motivation. Sorry. Unvote.

I can't actually READ the posts in the right way.  I'm not making connections and piecing it together in my head, probably because I was gone for so long.

Quote from: Rolepgeek on October 10, 2013, 09:57:05 pm

I don't have school tomorrow. HOWEVER, turns out I don't have extra time to do stuff, because I still have to get up at the same time.

Sorry. >.> Not planned.

Additionally you've said this in answer to others' questions:

Quote from: Rolepgeek on October 07, 2013, 10:57:49 pm

I'll get back to you. I need to look through the posts, and badly. Harass me if I don't get back to this.

And then you asked for a replacement, though you said you'd still answer questions and such, then tried to do so in the same post, but you included  stuff like

Quote from: Rolepgeek on October 09, 2013, 09:59:09 pm

I had said Mr. Zero because at the time I thought I'd spotted a post he'd made that had raised my hackles, but I can't find it now
...
And nnnnnnn...superblackcat. Holy crap, I just realized. The post he had right before mine was the one I thought was Mr Zero's. Probably. I can't really tell, and I thought it had been on page 15.
...
continued tomorrow

And of course, it wasn't continued 'tomorrow', or even the day after.  So I really didn't think you were up to following the thread, playing here, or answering questions.  In fact, you still haven't really 'continued that'.  Since you now say that's changed, sure, I'll ask some more.  I do have plenty for you.

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Quote from: Rolepgeek on October 18, 2013, 08:28:17 pm

As it is, I have a question for you. How would you be able to know for sure who would die? You said something similar to Deathsword, but you can't lynch two people, let alone know who would die. Unless, of course, you knew who would be night-killed. But that would make you scum, wouldn't it?

I've been reading other Mafia games.  Variants of that phrase have been said to people in many games, more or less directly phrased, said usually to one player but sometimes to more than one.  Typically though not always used on lurkers.

Spoiler: A sampling of quotes from other games where some form of "post or die" was said (click to show/hide)

Quote from: Lenglon on May 07, 2013, 08:26:26 pm

*sigh*
Excuse me a moment folks, but this is frankly inexcusable.
unvote
Borno: I've been tracking when you log on, you've been active many times since the day started and haven't said a single word, Post or die.

Quote from: Vector on August 07, 2011, 09:44:48 pm

All right.  I guess this is the point where I have to agree with Leafsnail, because I'm not seeing any of the active people as scum right now.
Solifuge.  Play or die.

Quote from: Nirur Torir on May 28, 2010, 01:50:21 pm

Unvote Solifuge.
Vote major_sepiroth. Post or die.

Quote from: Elegy on October 12, 2010, 11:03:01 pm

Like I've said (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=67921.msg1638550#msg1638550). numerous (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=67921.msg1638285#msg1638285). times (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=67921.msg1635917#msg1635917). now, I'm voting for Pandar because he either needs to play or die for a whole slew of reasons you can figure out by READING THE THREAD.

Quote from: webadict on May 21, 2010, 08:05:34 am

Most people would consider "not playing" a fairly bad playstyle. You continue to impress me with how little you know of the game and mafia in general due to your lack of knowledge or playing. You not only refuse to play, but also detract negatively from all the conversation by forcing players to tell you to play or die, and even going as far as to say that you won't do anything about anything.

Quote from: Vector on May 25, 2013, 03:47:58 pm

In any case, you're being quiet and I have a very hard time believing you'd sign up for this responsibility and lurk your fucking face off if operating as an honest sort of fellow.

So that's the case: wake up and look lively, or die, scumbucket.

Quote from: Zrk2 on April 05, 2013, 02:00:44 pm

Speak now or die.

Quote from: Jim Groovester on March 14, 2012, 01:55:07 pm

Lynch All Lurkers it is. Games should not have to resort to this at lylo.

Mii, get in here or die.

Quote from: lordnincompoop on March 11, 2011, 11:48:25 am

Copclaims do not make you exempt from participation. Elaborate or die.

Quote from: IronyOwl on August 03, 2011, 07:48:32 am

My primary suspect had vanished, and I'd been reminded that your behavior couldn't be a post restriction or similar, so it seemed a good time to give you a be useful or die ultimatum.

On that note, that post is a good start, but it's still not especially impressive. The bit about Toaster switching over as soon as Dariush got more votes than you simply isn't true, for instance. You'll need to do more if you want to not die today.

Quote from: KaminaSquirtle on January 22, 2011, 01:29:02 pm

I'm going to have to make a vote sometime, and Dariush gets it with this message:
Scumhunt or die.  I'm tired of your uselessness. 

Here's a pair used by the same player on two different people, in the same game day, in two posts 14 hours apart:

Quote from: webadict on September 07, 2011, 06:39:09 pm

Quote from: Dariush on September 07, 2011, 08:36:41 am

Okay, whatever Mr.Person has done up till now, it simply doesn't compare to admitting to backing off your vote under threat of being lynched. I can't believe you actually said that, but you did. Go hang, Orangebottle.

Hahahaha... No. We don't lynch Orangebottle today. There is no reason to, and that shift you just did was really obnoxious and uncalled for. I have no idea WHY you're trying to get yourself lynched (though, if you're a Jester, you are doing it poorly), but it's stupid, and even though I don't think you're scum, I will have no problem lynching you at this point just to prove a point. That point is "Don't screw with us." Start posting coherently or die.

Quote from: webadict on September 08, 2011, 08:01:07 am

Extend. TolyK needs to follow through on his promises and/or die.

As of my post you refer to, it's how I chose to speak to each of you, for the reasons I explained.  Are either or both of you actually going to die in play?  We'll see.  These are ultimatums, not direct and pure threats.  After all, stuff like this happens too:

Quote from: Tiruin on April 08, 2013, 12:21:46 pm

requesting him to speak or die. He spoke. Your reply?

Either or both of you may take actions that satisfy the ultimatum without dying in game.  I'm fine with that.

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Quote from: Rolepgeek on October 18, 2013, 08:28:17 pm

Quote from: Imp on October 16, 2013, 06:46:14 am

Deathsword.  I'm seriously disappointed in you now, in you as a player and in you as an 'example of how to play', which is what I believed an IC would act as.

You're acting like you have this 'right to lurk', and you absolutely don't.

Just look at your posts on lurker (http://www.ocf.berkeley.edu/~azhou/projects/LT/zt.py?topic=130600&start=0&msg=4635015&sort=user&numreplace=2&replaced0=griffinpup&replacer0=Darvi&replaced1=Lukeinator&replacer1=Persus13&player0=Tiruin&label0=np&numlabel=1) - This whole game you've only made 11.  I double checked them all;  two of the 11 have been only use of IC voice, and including those, 5 of them have had nothing I can recognize in any fashion as scumhunting.  I'm being really generous in this assessment.  Anything resembling a question, anything resembling analysis; anything more than answering questions, apologies, or IC voice I'm calling 'scumhunting' - it doesn't seem to be a joke, and even if it is, I'm calling it garbage.  Your activity and effort in this game, at least inside this thread, has been poor and steadily getting worse.  I'm calling you on it.

So. As you've shown us, Deathsword is even less active than me. So why are you voting me, and not him? You obviously think he's worthless as an IC. So what's your reason in going after me in particular? Is it because I 'personally attacked you'? You know, where I criticized your playstyle?

Almost like you're doing here. Huh. Weird.

Well now, look at the size of that deflection (adds more Scummy points to Rolepgeek's total).  None the less, I'll answer some of these questions.

First off - read what I wrote again.  Where do I say or show that Deathsword is "even less active than you"?  I make no comparison to your activity in what I said about Deathsword's activity, or anywhere else prior to this thread that I am aware of.  Where did you get that idea from, that "As you've shown us, Deathsword is even less active than me."?

I'll make that comparison here now though, lets see if it's true, what you assert from I don't know where....

As of right now, Deathsword's made 13 total posts in the game.  Rolepgeek has made 17.  In raw 'activity' measured by # of posts, Rolepgeek has indeed been more 'active' than Deathsword.

In terms of scumhunting (which is an activity I consider primary when I consider 'activity', not post count), Deathsword has made a total of 7/13 which contain at least a single sentence I can recognize as Scumhunting.  In some posts, it's literally a single sentence.

Rolepgeek has made a total of 6/17 posts which contain at least a single sentence I can recognize as Scumhunting.  In some posts, it's literally a single sentence.

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Furthermore, Rolepgeek... my search through your posts reminded me of something else you said:

Quote from: Rolepgeek on October 09, 2013, 09:59:09 pm

Top town...Deathsword, I think, still, since his posts have plenty of good activity and scum-hunting from what I can tell when he posts, and Darvi, I think, for similar reasons, though he's more active. May be that he fits my definition of scum-hunting better is all, though.

We have a really different opinion of Deathsword's scumhunting.  Would you please help me understand how to see his posts as having "plenty of good activity and scum-hunting" like you can tell?  And I understand you right, that Deathsword, not Darvi, "fits [your] definition of scum-hunting better", which is why Deathsword, not Darvi is your top Town?

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Now, back to those deflective questions.

Quote from: Rolepgeek on October 18, 2013, 08:28:17 pm

So. As you've shown us, Deathsword is even less active than me. So why are you voting me, and not him? You obviously think he's worthless as an IC. So what's your reason in going after me in particular? Is it because I 'personally attacked you'? You know, where I criticized your playstyle?

Nope.  My preferred answer to personal attacks is to distance myself from them, as I've made mention of in a few previous posts that I'd rather not talk to you at all.  That means I have to choose between playing this game or not.  I've decided, for now, to deal with you.  I'd already decided to match your tone as much as I could.  You stay polite with me, I'll stay polite with you.  We both might prefer that - I know I would.  Giving you the choice though; it's me matching you.

So in order to Scum hunt, I need to talk with those not talking, including you; or we can just see your role flip.  If you're talking... and you are.  So we talk.  You still appear highly scummy to my eyes, though I appreciate that you are attempting to scum hunt, though your attempt is focused almost purely upon myself. This is an improvement, and I will trust you further if you continue to improve.  That trust has not yet started, but I am watching, and listening.  If you're Town, we desperately need you, and I am delighted to place my vote upon the Scummiest player I can find, especially when a day is not about to end and I don't need to consider possible tie-votes or other such issues.

If this seems confusing to you - I am trying to say 'prepare for the possibility of a mislynch' and 'attempt to identify the Scum, be one of them me or not'.  By all means, do keep hunting me.  But I will find only- or primarily- hunting me suspicious - and others might as well.  Were this really the only suspicious thing about you, that might pass.

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Quote from: Rolepgeek on October 18, 2013, 08:28:17 pm

So, to summarize. 'Other mafia games talk about it, so why shouldn't we talk about it'? Along with a hearty helping of 'You aren't giving the advice I want you to, therefore you're abusing the IC voice'.

Actually, wait a second. This doesn't have anything to do with anything. You're basically criticizing him for doing a good job in a different game. What? Do you think people always have the same amount of time available? Or are you just upset about the reasoning in that advice?

So...you think he's lying? Is that what it is? Why? Because you think it's unlikely, based on your highly in-detail knowledge of Deathsword's RL health?

I have no idea what he's doing with that, lying or anything else.  It seems weird to me.  It's 'public record' as it were.  I wanted to see his response.  Pattern of deceptive play?  Looking like it to me.  Severely biased {guidance}, tuned against town?  Looking like it to me.  Is it -ever- appropriate to use {excuse for absence}?  That one I'm going to say, -no-, not while the player is alive.  Were he only present as an {IC voice} and wished to tell us that he could not offer advice for a time, that's innocent.  But as a player, no.  He can use player level excuse, but not IC level.  It's garbage to do otherwise.

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Quote from: Rolepgeek on October 18, 2013, 08:28:17 pm

Well, if you don't question me, I can't answer you. So...there's that, first off.

Though you "can't answer [me]", you have created an interesting and detailed response.  You have indeed 'answered' me, even in the portion where you say that you "can't answer".  I didn't expect or not expect to get a useful response, but I'm glad to get one and view it as a hopeful sign that you might continue to interact in information-containing ways.

Quote from: Rolepgeek on October 18, 2013, 08:28:17 pm

So...there's that, first off. And while I would disagree about why you've voted me, (unlike Deathsword, I think it's because you have a personal vendetta against me on the grounds of me calling you on your bullshit, even a little) he has a point. If I can't be bothered to read the thread like you say, there is no point in voting me.

Next part of it. I don't see how it's taking an easy out. It gets worse when, as Deathsword noted as well, you look at your reasoning for voting me, and then your claimed reasoning for why his vote is bad. 'No better use for it' vs. 'randomly pushing'. They seem very similar to me. As for controlling how you vote...it's pretty hypocritical for you to say that, since you're trying to control how other people post and play in this game, period(as far as I can tell, with the saying 'Get into this game and play...or die for your failings'. The middle of it is left out, and can be seen above. Context.

You look majorly scummy to me for a bunch of reasons.  Some of the biggies:  Lurky, unfulfilled promises, overall lack of scumhunting, apparent and claimed lack of focus on game.  That I have said I'd prefer not to interact with you is belied by my vote and comments towards you, and by my continued interactions with you.  I will feel intense satisfaction if I can come to a clear sense of your Town-ness or Scum-ness; this will allow me to not feel I have as strong a responsibility to directly interact with you this much.  The process of getting to that point could even lead me to respect and appreciate your playstyle.  (dare I venture to suggest 'us' and 'each other's' instead of 'me' and 'you'?  Probably far, far to much to imagine)

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Quote from: Rolepgeek on October 18, 2013, 08:28:17 pm

Finally, how would you kill him, exactly? Are you able to control the outcome of a lynch? Perhaps you can ensure he dies if he continues to annoy you with a NK? Interesting ideas, I would say.

I refer you back to the earlier portion of this post, where I discussed the ultimatum's wording and apparent general use.  My only tools which can kill in this Mafia game are words and votes, both mine and others.  All players together control the outcome of lynches.  If I could and would NK those who annoy me - I do believe we wouldn't be talking now, you and I.

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Quote from: Rolepgeek on October 18, 2013, 08:28:17 pm

Quote from: Deathsword on October 15, 2013, 12:34:23 pm

Rolepgeek asked to replace. When someone asks for that, it usually means they stop posting. You yourself said you voted him because you had nothing else to do with said vote. Now you talk about your previous play, but it is this very same previous play that makes your disregard as to where your vote goes more glaring. Is the vote yours to use as you see fit? Yes. It still does not exempt you from being called out on it.

As an addition, Imp, you never responded to this portion of his post.

I see no questions; that is his response to my response.  What sort of further response are you looking for?

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Quote from: Rolepgeek on October 18, 2013, 08:28:17 pm

Quote from: Imp on October 18, 2013, 01:39:48 am

Superblackcat - I've swung around to thinking Cat is Town.  Reason being Cat's talked a LOT, he's really shown several parts of how he reasons.  I can't tell for sure, but I think Cat just looks scummy and sometimes makes bad choices, but with Town intentions.  I'm by no means sure, but I think Cat has shown a pattern of play that I can follow and understand, and following it doesn't point to him as being Scum to me.  I don't think Cat could have played as he as if he is actually Scum.

Why not? He turned on kleril easily enough once he realized people thought there was something between them. Self-preservation isn't exactly a towny quality. It's a scum one.

This comment of yours contains a question, thus I answer:  Everything is a gestalt.  If it wasn't, then by your reasoning: Kleril turned on Cat more intensely, and more rapidly, than Cat turned on Kleril.  This Kleril is Scum, despite his Town role.

Since instead, truth is (for me) more easily found in wholes, my entire evaluation of Cat and everything he has done so far leads me to believe certain things about him; the only one that matters most is that he is much more likely to be Town than Scum.  As he continues to interact, I continue to observe, and in my mind test everything I have gathered about him against the new information and see if my opinion is changing.

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Quote from: Rolepgeek on October 18, 2013, 08:28:17 pm

3. I doubt we're going to lose. As long as we can get just one scum, our odds drastically improve, statistically and otherwise. More time to get the next one, info on who tried to help them, etc.

What are you basing this belief on?  Of the last 42 BM games in the forum - Town won only 7 times.  You're partially right, most of the Mafia wins had both Mafia surviving - but even catching one Scum doesn't make it likely that Town will win.  I stopped counting how many Mafia wins came after one Scum died when I hit 10 - leaving the most recent 7 Mafia wins unchecked.  But even when one Scum is lynched, in past games the single surviving Scum still defeated the Town well over 50% of the time.  What's got you so sure of a Town victory?

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Quote from: Rolepgeek on October 18, 2013, 08:28:17 pm

Ah. Well, then. Why wasn't that said at the beginning, when you voted me? He said you threw it on me because you had nothing better to do with it at the time, because that's why you claimed you put it on me. This sounds like you're coming up with something after the fact, because you didn't have a good reason when you voted me.

Strategy has many forms.  One of my goals, both direct and indirect, is to get people talking, especially those who have been talking little.  Another is to get people Scumhunting, especially those who have been visibly Scumhunting little.  I am perfectly content to be a target of Scumhunting; I consider it a fault to only Scumhunt narrowly.  That's a major lesson I've gained from Kleril's mislynch.  I -still- might have voted for his death, he appeared massively Scummy to me.  But had I looked as widely as I could on D1 I would now feel far less stupid about my involvement in that mislynch.  The placement of my vote upon you was not my first nor my only indicator that you appeared Scummy to me; it's been discussed before (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4671630#msg4671630) by me.

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Quote from: Rolepgeek on October 18, 2013, 08:28:17 pm

But that's what they are. Added reasons. You stated your primary reason, and the rest are secondary. Order of operations, so to speak. Besides the semantics of the situation, where calling them added reasons doesn't matter one way or another anyway.
See, being okay with a lynch on over half the players we have now is not a particularly town move. It seems really scummy to me, when looked at from that perspective, in fact; 1 scum buddy, one 'oh he's not scum anymore' to leave for when the game is at it's end, and the rest you can mislynch.

Nope; I think in gestalt (and semantics) far more than order of operations as perhaps you do.  I think in wholes.  And I am VERY disturbed to have such a weak feel of so many players - and it IS because so many of you are lurking both actively and passively.  I'm not sure of my Town picks either; but they sure look more Town than any lurky player to me, yep.

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Quote from: Rolepgeek on October 18, 2013, 08:28:17 pm

Quote from: Imp on October 18, 2013, 01:53:19 pm

Quote from: Deathsword on October 18, 2013, 12:25:17 pm

to be quite frank, I consider you to be, among the new players here, one of the most possibly dangerous if scum.

On a theory level, I'm flattered and I hope to be very dangerous when Scum; on an actual level you're failing in your logic here.

Reasons, here. You of all people should know you can't say that and not give specifics.

Specifics of?  How he's failing in his logic?  It's bolded, follows immediately after, and you quote it as well.

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Quote from: Rolepgeek on October 18, 2013, 08:28:17 pm

Quote from: Imp on October 18, 2013, 01:53:19 pm

The most dangerous Scum are the people who actually are Scum, in this game right now.  Those two as yet unfound people.  It's fine to go for me, but we cannot afford for you to ignore everyone else, or for you to tolerate low levels of interaction and scumhunting - and you appear to be doing both.  I do not protest that you call me and my actions Scum - I protest because you're being lazy about it.  You're not working, you're not using anything but convenient easy recent things to support your attack; you look like you're just going through the motions, not that you care about anything other than deflecting attention from yourself.  You're scumhunting scummily.

No really? The scum who are actually scum are the dangerous ones? Now that the obvious has been stated, let's look at the rest. You can't ignore everyone else. But that's what extends are for. We pressure you until you crack, and then we pressure the others for a feel on who your buddy is until the end of the day when you get lynched. Or, if you really are town, we pressure you until you crack in a different way, and then we move on and look at your posts with a new light.

Quote from: Imp on October 18, 2013, 01:53:19 pm

Whoever we lynch today, me or anyone, Town or Scum, that passes the edge from playtime to endtime.  Use today to prepare for Mylo.  Get AS MUCH information today as you can, because if today is a mislynch and tonight there's a kill, there's almost nothing left to work with.  Get active peeps.  Set yourselves up, work as a team so the Scum are also forced to work as a team or stand out - so that if we mislynch today we are in a great position for tomorrow.  Please, my partners.  Please get involved and active, so the Scum cannot stand beside you so easily.[/b]

I would say the same to you.

I'm not sure I follow your reasoning.  Expound upon both of your comments quoted here, please?

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Quote from: Rolepgeek on October 18, 2013, 08:28:17 pm

Quote from: Imp on October 18, 2013, 04:18:52 pm

Oh Tiruin.  To me you're still my mentor here, you're still the person in this thread I feel the most comfort and rightness in buddying.  For this you pass forever, even if you also for other reasons fail.

Hey Squill!

Going to encourage you to talk about a few more things, hope you'll be willing to.

Would you discuss your evaluation, in terms of Town/Scum/null tell, for the play so far of Mr.Zero?  Would you do the same for Deathsword?

What? While encouraging players to talk is great and all, especially when you don't insult them or their playstyle, why would you buddy Tiruin? Especially if you think I'm scum, and he'd be replacing me. This would seem suspicious if not for the fact that he isn't playing. >.>

You really following this thread?  And understanding it?

I first referred to Tiruin as mentoring me and as someone I could buddy as much as I desired a week and a half ago (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4666873#msg4666873).

There's a very large chance that Tiruin cannot be considered as a replacement for anyone in the thread, this is why:

Quote from: Tiruin on September 29, 2013, 08:31:13 pm

ZU: Spoilspec please-if only to give access to deadchat, thanks. :P

Now we don't know if zombie urist gave her access to either or both - but we do know that when she asked if she could replace you, well this was the response.

Quote from: Tiruin on October 15, 2013, 10:08:45 am

Quote from: zombie urist on October 15, 2013, 09:46:54 am

Quote from: Tiruin on October 15, 2013, 02:21:33 am

If nobody ish going to replaace in then I'm volunteering if it affects the game for far too long.

Can you do votecounts and stuff this week?  :) I'm suuuuper busy.

I don't even...
:I

Either she isn't acceptable to replace anyone, or she just wasn't accepted to replace you (but maybe could replace an IC).  Ergo, you're still here, and still asking for replacement.

As she is not a player, and has requested to be ineligible to become a player, I feel especially free to respond to her in any way I please and to continue doing so.

You think this seems suspicious?  I think you're reaching for anything to say about how suspicious I am.  Flattering.  Welcome back to the game, please keep reading and trying, and consider turning your attention to additional possible Scum candidates.  If we mislynch again, I believe we're in grave trouble - even if we lynch correctly as I understand the odds, they are against us.  Scumhunting only counts as 'Town points' to me if it's used in a way that appears to be working towards a Town win over time.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 2 Robot, You - ONE REPLACEMENT NEEDED!
Post by: Darvi on October 19, 2013, 06:20:09 am

So over the weekend I completely forgot that this was a thing.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 2 Robot, You - ONE REPLACEMENT NEEDED!
Post by: Superblackcat on October 19, 2013, 09:40:05 pm

Welcome back.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 2 Robot, You - ONE REPLACEMENT NEEDED!
Post by: Tiruin on October 19, 2013, 09:52:44 pm

Quote from: Darvi on October 19, 2013, 06:20:09 am

So over the weekend I completely forgot that this was a thing.

:I

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 2 Robot, You - ONE REPLACEMENT NEEDED!
Post by: Tiruin on October 20, 2013, 08:22:23 am

A deep piston-like shot rings in the air, before the ceiling opens to unveil a wonderful sunny day.

          The sky is auburn with the sun's presence, and the lack of clouds bring out the complexities of the dawn.

          Rays of sunlight reflect on your bodies.

          You all shine.

1 1 1 1 1 2

Imp - Deathsword   Squill   Rolepgeek - Imp   Superblackcat - Mr.Zero   Mr.Zero - Superblackcat   Deathsword   Darvi - Squill   Not Voting: Rolepgeek, Darvi

Rolepgeek has asked for a replacement!


Extend - 0/3
Shorten - 0/4

Today will end on Tuesday, October 22nd at 9pm PST (http://www.timeanddate.com/countdown/generic?iso=20131023T13&p0=145&msg=Day+2+End&csz=1)

Which means ~63 hours left. :I

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I've converted PST (-8 GMT) to my timezone = +8 GMT

---

Quote from: Imp on October 19, 2013, 05:28:06 am

Quote from: Tiruin on September 29, 2013, 08:31:13 pm

ZU: Spoilspec please-if only to give access to deadchat, thanks. :P

Now we don't know if zombie urist gave her access to either or both - but we do know that when she asked if she could replace you, well this was the response.

Quote from: Tiruin on October 15, 2013, 10:08:45 am

Quote from: zombie urist on October 15, 2013, 09:46:54 am

Quote from: Tiruin on October 15, 2013, 02:21:33 am

If nobody ish going to replaace in then I'm volunteering if it affects the game for far too long.

Can you do votecounts and stuff this week?  :) I'm suuuuper busy.

I don't even...
:I

Either she isn't acceptable to replace anyone, or she just wasn't accepted to replace you (but maybe could replace an IC).  Ergo, you're still here, and still asking for replacement.

As she is not a player, and has requested to be ineligible to become a player, I feel especially free to respond to her in any way I please and to continue doing so.

Ma'am Imp is right. ZU, however grumpy he is with me, has only provided me the deadchat link. It is...dead, for a blunt definition. :I

So I can't replace anyone and will be happy to converse in casual play with everyone because ZU is busy and bleh. :P

So yes, you're still here Role. Make the best of your time (or rescind your request for replacement if able).

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 2 Robot, You - ONE REPLACEMENT NEEDED!
Post by: zombie urist on October 21, 2013, 12:26:55 am

I'm done with *most* of my time consuming things. I have another midterm on Wednesday but I think I'll be good for the rest of the game.

Thanks Tiruin for doing votecounts, but you still can't replace in.  :P

Be active everyone.  ;)

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 2 Robot, You - ONE REPLACEMENT NEEDED!
Post by: Teneb on October 21, 2013, 11:41:21 am

Imp, what you are basically doing is trying to dominate the game with massive walls of text. Every time someone says something you disagree with, out comes the WoTs.

Quote from: Imp on October 19, 2013, 05:28:06 am

Spoiler: Wherein Rolepgeek repeatedly makes Imp think that RPG isn't following/reading/understanding the thread (click to show/hide)

Quote from: Rolepgeek on October 07, 2013, 10:57:49 pm

Quote

@Superblackcat, reply #176, concerning my top scums and FoS.

I'll get back to you. I need to look through the posts, and badly. Harass me if I don't get back to this.

Quote

@Persus, reply #181, multiple questions; Opinion post-behemoth, Opinions about Imp's accusations, and Reasoning for not posting

About everything post behemoth, I can't say anything yet. I still need to sweep through and process everything.

Huh. Thought there'd be more questions. Time for the more detailed sweep and cursory thoughts to answer SBC and Persus.

Alright, now for the sweep.

Ffffuuuuuu-
Of course there's too many little things I want to dig at for me to get all of them. Figures.

Quote from: Rolepgeek on October 08, 2013, 10:04:36 pm

Posting to show I'm not ignoring this. Put it off too long to be able to post it tonight, but I've got the post saved on my computer. Will finish it and post it tomorrow. It has all my answers and such, and more.

Unless one of you knows how to copy/paste from it to my IPad, of course.

Quote from: Rolepgeek on October 09, 2013, 09:59:09 pm

No...no, no, shit, I can't do it. I can't get the time and I'm getting too emotional to play. Well, that, and I can't get into the right mindset. I can't look deeply into posts, all I can do is stare at them. It's frustrating. I'm gonna have to ask for a replacement, sorry guys. Should have done this a while ago. I'll still answer questions and such, I just...I can't work up the motivation. Sorry. Unvote.

I can't actually READ the posts in the right way.  I'm not making connections and piecing it together in my head, probably because I was gone for so long.

Quote from: Rolepgeek on October 10, 2013, 09:57:05 pm

I don't have school tomorrow. HOWEVER, turns out I don't have extra time to do stuff, because I still have to get up at the same time.

Sorry. >.> Not planned.

Above, for example, you attempt to discredit rolepgeek by point out posts where he said he was busy/not paying attention. While that was certainly true, what makes you think he didn't do a full read of the thread before posting his own wall of text?


You talk a lot about personal attacks and how long it took me to react. You know why I took so long to "react"? Because I did not see it as a personal attack. He criticised your playstile, which apparently offended you, thus resulting in you calling it an attack on your person. Well, following that logic, all your allegations that I am a shitty player/IC are personal attacks as well.

You are trying to do a lot to discredit me, despite the fact that I've been trying to provide advice since the very start of the game. Darvi was gone for a full week, but you barely said anything about that, and when you did it was in a friendly tone. When it comes to me, out come the allegations of me being shit. SBC is gone too, not a single word was said by you about that. So is MrZero. So is Squill.

Your walls of text are smokescreens, for walls of text are indeed intimidating, and it discourages others to go through them and attempt to counter the arguments.

I am, of course, unfazed by such attempts of discredit. But it reeks of scum play, and for that my vote stays on you.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 2 Robot, You - ONE REPLACEMENT NEEDED!
Post by: Squill on October 21, 2013, 04:52:50 pm

Quote from: Imp on October 18, 2013, 04:18:52 pm

Hey Squill!

Going to encourage you to talk about a few more things, hope you'll be willing to.

Would you discuss your evaluation, in terms of Town/Scum/null tell, for the play so far of Mr.Zero?  Would you do the same for Deathsword?

Sorry for not posting for a while, had a bit of a busy weekend.

Anyways, I think that Mr. Zero has been fairly inactive lately. It seems a little bit scummy, but right now I think there are bigger problems.

As for Deathsword... I think that either him or Imp are scum. I think that one of you two is bringing emotions into this to either a. Make the other look bad, or b. Provoke a lynch of the other by agitating the other players into a sort of panic. Currently, I think it's more likely to be Deathsword; as right now, Imp is both the most frequent poster and the most aggressive player. It makes her into a priority target for scum, both because of she's more dangerous as a scumhunter, and because the volume of her texts makes it more likely for her to say something that can be used against her. Of course, it is entirely possible that Imp is scum, and aware of her position, and is using it against Deathsword, but I find that unlikely, because if I remember correctly, Deathsword was the one who initiated the conflict.

Even with all this though, my vote remains on Darvi.
@Darvi: You "forget" about us for over a week, and when you finally get back, this is all we get?

Quote from: Darvi on October 19, 2013, 06:20:09 am

So over the weekend I completely forgot that this was a thing.

This seems highly suspect, as you admitted to having seen the thread, but still you post no content.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 2 Robot, You - ONE REPLACEMENT NEEDED!
Post by: Imp on October 21, 2013, 07:38:21 pm

Deathsword:

Quote from: Deathsword on October 21, 2013, 11:41:21 am

Imp, what you are basically doing is trying to dominate the game with massive walls of text. Every time someone says something you disagree with, out comes the WoTs.

I disagree with your determination of my motive.  I am playing, very actively playing.  I flat out don't care if my activity 'dominates the game' or not - I wish everyone were more active and would be perfectly content if everyone were as active and verbose as I am.  You however, are connecting pressure upon me to a directive from you to be less involved in the game.  Seriously scummy move.

Quote from: Deathsword on October 21, 2013, 11:41:21 am

Quote from: Imp on October 19, 2013, 05:28:06 am

Spoiler: Wherein Rolepgeek repeatedly makes Imp think that RPG isn't following/reading/understanding the thread (click to show/hide)

Quote from: Rolepgeek on October 07, 2013, 10:57:49 pm

Quote

@Superblackcat, reply #176, concerning my top scums and FoS.

I'll get back to you. I need to look through the posts, and badly. Harass me if I don't get back to this.

Quote

@Persus, reply #181, multiple questions; Opinion post-behemoth, Opinions about Imp's accusations, and Reasoning for not posting

About everything post behemoth, I can't say anything yet. I still need to sweep through and process everything.

Huh. Thought there'd be more questions. Time for the more detailed sweep and cursory thoughts to answer SBC and Persus.

Alright, now for the sweep.

Ffffuuuuuu-
Of course there's too many little things I want to dig at for me to get all of them. Figures.

Quote from: Rolepgeek on October 08, 2013, 10:04:36 pm

Posting to show I'm not ignoring this. Put it off too long to be able to post it tonight, but I've got the post saved on my computer. Will finish it and post it tomorrow. It has all my answers and such, and more.

Unless one of you knows how to copy/paste from it to my IPad, of course.

Quote from: Rolepgeek on October 09, 2013, 09:59:09 pm

No...no, no, shit, I can't do it. I can't get the time and I'm getting too emotional to play. Well, that, and I can't get into the right mindset. I can't look deeply into posts, all I can do is stare at them. It's frustrating. I'm gonna have to ask for a replacement, sorry guys. Should have done this a while ago. I'll still answer questions and such, I just...I can't work up the motivation. Sorry. Unvote.

I can't actually READ the posts in the right way.  I'm not making connections and piecing it together in my head, probably because I was gone for so long.

Quote from: Rolepgeek on October 10, 2013, 09:57:05 pm

I don't have school tomorrow. HOWEVER, turns out I don't have extra time to do stuff, because I still have to get up at the same time.

Sorry. >.> Not planned.

Above, for example, you attempt to discredit rolepgeek by point out posts where he said he was busy/not paying attention. While that was certainly true, what makes you think he didn't do a full read of the thread before posting his own wall of text?

You again incorrectly ascribe motive to me.  I make no attempt to 'discredit' Rolepgeek; he's doing a fine job of that all by himself.  I discuss what I see, oh yes.  Every person must draw their own conclusions.  Your question is answered, and quite fully, in the portions of my answer immediately preceding and also following what you bothered to quote:

Spoiler: Bolded portions of my previous post which directly answer Deathsword's "question" (click to show/hide)

Quote from: Imp on October 19, 2013, 05:28:06 am

---

---

Quote from: Rolepgeek on October 18, 2013, 08:28:17 pm

Quote from: Imp on October 16, 2013, 06:46:14 am

Right now it seems pointless to question you - you're claiming you can't even read the thread.

Oh, I've read most of it. That's not the problem.

I understood you were not reading the thread (staring at it sometimes, yes, but NOT reading it) because you said so, and then gave no indication until your most recent post that this had changed.

spoiler=Wherein Rolepgeek repeatedly makes Imp think that RPG isn't following/reading/understanding the thread

Quote from: Rolepgeek on October 07, 2013, 10:57:49 pm

Quote

@Superblackcat, reply #176, concerning my top scums and FoS.

I'll get back to you. I need to look through the posts, and badly. Harass me if I don't get back to this.

Quote

@Persus, reply #181, multiple questions; Opinion post-behemoth, Opinions about Imp's accusations, and Reasoning for not posting

About everything post behemoth, I can't say anything yet. I still need to sweep through and process everything.

Huh. Thought there'd be more questions. Time for the more detailed sweep and cursory thoughts to answer SBC and Persus.

Alright, now for the sweep.

Ffffuuuuuu-
Of course there's too many little things I want to dig at for me to get all of them. Figures.

Quote from: Rolepgeek on October 08, 2013, 10:04:36 pm

Posting to show I'm not ignoring this. Put it off too long to be able to post it tonight, but I've got the post saved on my computer. Will finish it and post it tomorrow. It has all my answers and such, and more.

Unless one of you knows how to copy/paste from it to my IPad, of course.

Quote from: Rolepgeek on October 09, 2013, 09:59:09 pm

No...no, no, shit, I can't do it. I can't get the time and I'm getting too emotional to play. Well, that, and I can't get into the right mindset. I can't look deeply into posts, all I can do is stare at them. It's frustrating. I'm gonna have to ask for a boldreplacement/b, sorry guys. Should have done this a while ago. I'll still answer questions and such, I just...I can't work up the motivation. Sorry. Unvote.

I can't actually READ the posts in the right way.  I'm not making connections and piecing it together in my head, probably because I was gone for so long.

Quote from: Rolepgeek on October 10, 2013, 09:57:05 pm

I don't have school tomorrow. HOWEVER, turns out I don't have extra time to do stuff, because I still have to get up at the same time.

Sorry. >.> Not planned.

/spoiler
Additionally you've said this in answer to others' questions:

Quote from: Rolepgeek on October 07, 2013, 10:57:49 pm

boldI'll get back to you./B I need to look through the posts, and badly. boldHarass me if I don't get back to this/B.

And then you asked for a replacement, though you said you'd still answer questions and such, then tried to do so in the same post, but you included  stuff like

Quote from: Rolepgeek on October 09, 2013, 09:59:09 pm

I had said Mr. Zero because at the time I thought I'd spotted a post he'd made that had raised my hackles, but I can't find it now
...
And nnnnnnn...superblackcat. Holy crap, I just realized. The post he had right before mine was the one I thought was Mr Zero's. Probably. I can't really tell, and I thought it had been on page 15.
...
continued tomorrow

And of course, it wasn't continued 'tomorrow', or even the day after.  So I really didn't think you were up to following the thread, playing here, or answering questions.  In fact, you still haven't really 'continued that'.  Since you now say that's changed, sure, I'll ask some more.  I do have plenty for you.

---

---

Quote from: Deathsword on October 21, 2013, 11:41:21 am

You talk a lot about personal attacks and how long it took me to react.

Really?  Seems this is the only thing I've said about that:

Quote from: Imp on October 18, 2013, 01:53:19 pm

Why, you even wait until NOW!! to throw out an IC comment about don't personal attack.  More than ten days after it happened!

Why does that feel like 'me talking alot' to you?

Quote from: Deathsword on October 21, 2013, 11:41:21 am

You know why I took so long to "react"? Because I did not see it as a personal attack. He criticised your playstile, which apparently offended you, thus resulting in you calling it an attack on your person. Well, following that logic, all your allegations that I am a shitty player/IC are personal attacks as well.

I accept your classification of 'wasn't a personal attack' to you.  Given that his "criticism of my playstyle" (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4669054#msg4669054=) post came 3 days after he said he'd stopped reading what I (or anyone else) was writing, and he said he hadn't thoroughly read that either, despite saying he "was wanting to dissect the behemoth piece by piece and feed it to [me]".  When someone says something like this:  "I was trying to pressure Imp, to get him to do a good play instead of active-lurking like it had appeared he had been(and still may be)." and also say something like "[Imp's bad play] may have changed in the last five pages...About everything post behemoth, I can't say anything yet" - That's garbage.  Covering his inactivity with 'scumhunting', or at least "pressure" which he directly says he isn't even paying attention to the thread - useless, stupid application of "pressure" if he doesn't even bother to check if it's still warranted by his own non-scumhunting motives.  Guess what:  attacking someone outside of scumhunting - what is that?  What is it doing in the game?  What is it intended to achieve?

I think it's intended to cover his arse, to point fingers and shout and try to make someone other than himself look bad.

Your {IC} comment about no personal attacks coming a week and a half after the issue entered the thread; you don't bother to notice or care about its presence in the thread until you see fit to mention personal attacking in your own post as a player (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4696773;topicseen#msg4696773); Garbage.  Covering your arse garbage.  You're acting like Scum, before and still; I am calling you on it, and I understand this to be how the game is played and what Scumhunting is.  Which is not what Rolepgeek was doing in his "criticism of my playstyle" (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4669054#msg4669054=) post where he said 'I have no idea what is going on now but I'll put a lot of words into apology, say I don't know what is going on, and talk about how terrible that terrible Imp is, I've got some stuff to vent so woo!  I'm venting'.

Quote from: Deathsword on October 21, 2013, 11:41:21 am

You are trying to do a lot to discredit me, despite the fact that I've been trying to provide advice since the very start of the game. Darvi was gone for a full week, but you barely said anything about that, and when you did it was in a friendly tone. When it comes to me, out come the allegations of me being shit. SBC is gone too, not a single word was said by you about that. So is MrZero. So is Squill.

You too are doing just fine in discrediting yourself.  I'm talking about your actions, sure.  Do they look Scummy?  I think so.  But they're your actions, and we're supposed to Scumhunt.  You're the person to look to if what you do is Scummy; no one can "discredit" anyone but themselves; all anyone else can do is highlight and discuss.

As to other players being too quiet:  Yes.  And I don't know what to do about that.  I've been talking about it; 'be more active, please' has been a theme.  My first reaction to lurkers was back on the third day of play (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4641380#msg4641380). 

I still have no idea what to do about lurkers:

Quote from: zombie urist on September 26, 2013, 12:27:07 pm

Quote from: Imp on September 26, 2013, 12:15:12 pm

Requesting a prod for Rolepgeek and griffinpup - the rules on the first page says someone has to request for non-posters to be prodded or it won't happen, am I understanding that right?

Only if I don't notice.  :o

I still am not sure if I'm supposed to track days (no one else is giving it high priority, not even either of our ICs or our moderator or our substitute moderator) and ask for prods, or they just won't happen.  When a prod was requested for Darvi, after 4 days of no posts, the mod responded with:

Quote from: zombie urist on October 18, 2013, 02:47:02 am

Prods will go out tomorrow at midnight though.  >:(

...  So I dunno.  I so dunno.  But I have to do something.  No one else seems to be, and I'll be damned before I just sit here and wait for Town to die.

Quote from: Deathsword on October 21, 2013, 11:41:21 am

Your walls of text are smokescreens, for walls of text are indeed intimidating, and it discourages others to go through them and attempt to counter the arguments.

I am, of course, unfazed by such attempts of discredit. But it reeks of scum play, and for that my vote stays on you.

You and Rolepgeek both look like Scum to me.  I can't say that I mind a seriously Scummy player saying "my vote stays on you", especially when the reasons given seem amount to:

You are active.  You are verbose.  You are attacking me.

Do I understand your case against me correctly, Scumsword?

As of right now, I'm equally happy to vote for either Rolepgeek or Deathsword.  I'd like to hear more from both, and everyone, before D2 ends.  We have about 28 hours before day end.  I'll be the first to say Extend in the wild hope that activity increases; failing that I don't mind seeing this amazingly inactive day end because without activity, I don't see any benefits to more time or less time; I see nothing but another pitiful Town loss.

Squill/Everyone:

Quote from: Imp on October 18, 2013, 04:18:52 pm

Would you discuss your evaluation, in terms of Town/Scum/null tell, for the play so far of Mr.Zero?  Would you do the same for Deathsword?

Quote from: Squill on October 21, 2013, 04:52:50 pm

Anyways, I think that Mr. Zero has been fairly inactive lately. It seems a little bit scummy, but right now I think there are bigger problems.

Err.  Is that your entire analysis of Mr.Zero?  That' he's been fairly inactive lately?  I don't just want to evaluate your thinking, I'd also like to see him through someone else's eyes; yours and anyone else's.  There were a few concerns about him, especially near the end of D1.  I'd really like to be able to consider another's view of his play.  I hope you have more to add...

But I am opening the question up wide.  I'd like to hear from anyone, and/or everyone, what you think of Mr.Zero's play.

The analysis of Deathsword/myself shows greater thought, which is more useful.  Perspective appreciated, though I'd like you to analyze more than just 'the last few days' if you're willing to revisit the question and consider Deathsword-over-time as well please?

If you want to also analyze me, go for it.  It won't change what I think of my alignment, but I am trying to understand how you think and what you are thinking, so I can evaluate you, and nearly anything gameplay related can possibly help me do that.

As to Darvi:  I'm disappointed beyond words.  His 'abandonment' just increases my incredulity.  However this is what may have happened:  He did somehow 'forget'.  he noticed, somehow, totally outside of his normal posting hours - he typically posts in the thread around the time I'm posting this or a little sooner; his 'oops' post came at what seems crazy hours for his posting - I'm willing to accept that he had no time then to do more than say his form of 'I messed up, I'll fix when I can'.

Weekends are considered free time from Mafia games; while I don't -like- at all that after missing us all week he STILL took the weekend off (but did post in other threads on DF forums) - as I understand the rules I don't get to hold someone not posting on the weekend against them.  So he has today, and this is around the latter range of the time he normally posts here during the week he did post.

So I'm prepared to wait until after today before I start adding even more 'that's scummy' points to his tally or screaming for his neck, in the off chance that he's in the middle, right now, of catching up and posting.  Does not mean he's forgiven.  Just means I can see a 'reasonable reason' with the little I know of him for him to not have answered again before now so I'm no more upset that it's this time today without his next post appearing than I was, say, Saturday at this time or Sunday at this time.  Now, tomorrow at this time, ehh.

But really, everyone needs more activity :(

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 2 Robot, You - ONE REPLACEMENT NEEDED!
Post by: Imp on October 21, 2013, 08:11:42 pm

Oh yeah, also meant to ask you, Deathsword:  What's your opinion of everyone who's not me (I know you say I'm Scum) and yourself?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 2 Robot, You - ONE REPLACEMENT NEEDED!
Post by: Tiruin on October 21, 2013, 09:21:13 pm

Quote from: Imp on October 21, 2013, 07:38:21 pm

Quote from: zombie urist on September 26, 2013, 12:27:07 pm

Quote from: Imp on September 26, 2013, 12:15:12 pm

Requesting a prod for Rolepgeek and griffinpup - the rules on the first page says someone has to request for non-posters to be prodded or it won't happen, am I understanding that right?

Only if I don't notice.  :o

I still am not sure if I'm supposed to track days (no one else is giving it high priority, not even either of our ICs or our moderator or our substitute moderator) and ask for prods, or they just won't happen.  When a prod was requested for Darvi, after 4 days of no posts, the mod responded with:

Quote from: zombie urist on October 18, 2013, 02:47:02 am

Prods will go out tomorrow at midnight though.  >:(

...  So I dunno.  I so dunno.  But I have to do something.  No one else seems to be, and I'll be damned before I just sit here and wait for Town to die.

I..I thought that ZU sent out the prods so I didn't and and and T_T
>____<

Sorry!

Quote from: Imp on October 21, 2013, 07:38:21 pm

But really, everyone needs more activity :(

In the eyes of the sun, the orb turns a vivid crimson color.

A gunshot sounds. The orb speaks.

"IDLENESS. SOLITUDE. IF NONE SHALL ACT, THEN I SHALL. IF NOTHING IS TO BE DONE, THEN THE ELEMENTS WILL OVERTAKE YOU ALL.

ACTIVATING SECURITY MEASURE -24601"

You get the feeling that, without much attention to each other (and this game), everything will probably go to the scrapheap and beyond. . .soon.

[Seriously guys? You've all had FIVE or so days. Imp is giving me all the nostalgia about her long posts because I did long posts back then.

And really. Nothing from you men? >_> is everyone that busy that they fear a tiiiiny slip? THIS GAME IS FOR LEARNING, AND NOT MAINLY PRESERVATION.

Though in context, it would really be preservation now. Preservation of expiry date given the idleness of 80% of its players. :/

@Imp: When taking any case-focus and summarize as you go on-mention the things that mark the target out as scummy, and learn to cut out the trivial points that don't directly lead to the aforementioned scumminess--you may point this out in your 'revealing paragraph', but trim it a bit as you go on. =] Good work so far, for whatever team you're in.

Scum IC: What are your words on this case. :I]

We have 26 hours left guys. Given timezones and all...

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 2 Robot, You - ONE REPLACEMENT NEEDED!
Post by: Rolepgeek on October 21, 2013, 09:35:31 pm

GAWD

Quote from: Deathsword on October 21, 2013, 11:41:21 am

Imp, what you are basically doing is trying to dominate the game with massive walls of text. Every time someone says something you disagree with, out comes the WoTs.

Quote from: Imp on October 19, 2013, 05:28:06 am

Spoiler: Wherein Rolepgeek repeatedly makes Imp think that RPG isn't following/reading/understanding the thread (click to show/hide)

Quote from: Rolepgeek on October 07, 2013, 10:57:49 pm

Quote

@Superblackcat, reply #176, concerning my top scums and FoS.

I'll get back to you. I need to look through the posts, and badly. Harass me if I don't get back to this.

Quote

@Persus, reply #181, multiple questions; Opinion post-behemoth, Opinions about Imp's accusations, and Reasoning for not posting

About everything post behemoth, I can't say anything yet. I still need to sweep through and process everything.

Huh. Thought there'd be more questions. Time for the more detailed sweep and cursory thoughts to answer SBC and Persus.

Alright, now for the sweep.

Ffffuuuuuu-
Of course there's too many little things I want to dig at for me to get all of them. Figures.

Quote from: Rolepgeek on October 08, 2013, 10:04:36 pm

Posting to show I'm not ignoring this. Put it off too long to be able to post it tonight, but I've got the post saved on my computer. Will finish it and post it tomorrow. It has all my answers and such, and more.

Unless one of you knows how to copy/paste from it to my IPad, of course.

Quote from: Rolepgeek on October 09, 2013, 09:59:09 pm

No...no, no, shit, I can't do it. I can't get the time and I'm getting too emotional to play. Well, that, and I can't get into the right mindset. I can't look deeply into posts, all I can do is stare at them. It's frustrating. I'm gonna have to ask for a replacement, sorry guys. Should have done this a while ago. I'll still answer questions and such, I just...I can't work up the motivation. Sorry. Unvote.

I can't actually READ the posts in the right way.  I'm not making connections and piecing it together in my head, probably because I was gone for so long.

Quote from: Rolepgeek on October 10, 2013, 09:57:05 pm

I don't have school tomorrow. HOWEVER, turns out I don't have extra time to do stuff, because I still have to get up at the same time.

Sorry. >.> Not planned.

Above, for example, you attempt to discredit rolepgeek by point out posts where he said he was busy/not paying attention. While that was certainly true, what makes you think he didn't do a full read of the thread before posting his own wall of text?


You talk a lot about personal attacks and how long it took me to react. You know why I took so long to "react"? Because I did not see it as a personal attack. He criticised your playstile, which apparently offended you, thus resulting in you calling it an attack on your person. Well, following that logic, all your allegations that I am a shitty player/IC are personal attacks as well.

You are trying to do a lot to discredit me, despite the fact that I've been trying to provide advice since the very start of the game. Darvi was gone for a full week, but you barely said anything about that, and when you did it was in a friendly tone. When it comes to me, out come the allegations of me being shit. SBC is gone too, not a single word was said by you about that. So is MrZero. So is Squill.

Your walls of text are smokescreens, for walls of text are indeed intimidating, and it discourages others to go through them and attempt to counter the arguments.

I am, of course, unfazed by such attempts of discredit. But it reeks of scum play, and for that my vote stays on you.

I have to agree with you on at least one thing, Deathsword. Walls of text are intimidating. They're difficult to read, and frankly, I don't feel the desire to read them. It's difficult to follow what's going on, since it takes stuff individually instead of in context. To me, that is the single most important thing in an argument. Context. That, and not making assumptions. Everyone's doing it. Myself included, if only because I'm picking up bad habits from everyone else. Probably not the only reason, though(likely has to do with the fact that at some point or another in this type of game, it becomes a requirement. Period.). But my point is, let's say the first part of Imp's most recent Wall of Text.

Quote from: Imp on October 21, 2013, 07:38:21 pm

Deathsword:

Quote from: Deathsword on October 21, 2013, 11:41:21 am

Imp, what you are basically doing is trying to dominate the game with massive walls of text. Every time someone says something you disagree with, out comes the WoTs.

I disagree with your determination of my motive.  I am playing, very actively playing.  I flat out don't care if my activity 'dominates the game' or not - I wish everyone were more active and would be perfectly content if everyone were as active and verbose as I am.  You however, are connecting pressure upon me to a directive from you to be less involved in the game.  Seriously scummy move.

Several assumptions being made here that aren't there in reality, as far as I can tell.
First is the assumption that Imp is trying to dominate the game verbally, and that he's using WoTs to try and break apart anyone who disagrees with him.
NEXT, is the assumption that Deathsword is telling Imp to be less active.
Neither of these are true, as far as I can tell. And then there's the underlying assumption, that I'm recently realizing is untrue.
The assumption that WoTs are the best way to go about communicating in this game. Be honest Imp. Really be honest. If everyone, if all nine people, were as [let's go with dedicated] as you, how do you think it'd go? WoTs and Counter-WoTs everywhere. Do you really think you'd have the time to read all that? Let alone respond?

I played, left, returned to, left again, and tried once more, a roleplaying chat-room based website. A very successful one. One in which 'walls of text' were much appreciated, since it was believed that meant you were a better RPer, or at least were better and establishing the scene, and such, even though a single one would take 15 minutes to write, whilst only maybe 15 seconds would pass, if it was, say, a combat scene. I've realized, playing there and elsewhere, that this isn't the best way to go about things. It tends to turn it into a contest, rather than a game. Now, here, at least, it's both, but it's not a contest between everyone. WoT may have legitimate information in them, and usually do. The problem is that it gets hidden, and obscured, by sheer volume of information. I'm learning this too, in class; my British Literature teacher is saying that my biggest problem is going into too much detail. For this type of game, so that I can respond to your posts and not be intimidated into procrastinating by their sheer size, try to cut them down to reasonable lengths Parse out less important details(perhaps in a spoiler at the bottom, little tidbits we can read if we have extra time, but not the true meat of it?). At the least, don't dissect posts anymore. Quote the post, maybe once, then either number the things you refer to(we can reference it ourselves; if nothing else we won't have to scroll down as much), or simply make it clear what it is through (hey look this word again) context.

At another time, when I have more time(Aka, the weekends), I will be able to chop through your WoT. My 'WoT', from Friday? That took me over an hour and a half to make. I was only able to because I didn't have school that day. Most days, I have an hour and a half on the computer, period. I'm not going to spend it all on one game. Not to mention the time it takes to figure out what's being said, and then figure out what that means. For now? I will ask you to find the most important things from that and summarize it/repeat the questions alone(though with context, or at least the ability for me to figure out what the context is), so that I can respond.

Although, part of the problem is that I have very strict limits on my time, due to the way my schedule(and what I own) works. I can't check in throughout the day like most people, or do stuff at lunch or anything.


AND NOW FOR THE IMPORTANT PART DUR DUR DURRR
Since it's a tie, I need to vote someone, to break it at the least. I'm not actually going to vote Imp, since I'm starting to think she has important things to make clear, and I want to give her a chance to cut stuff down so she isn't fucking with my eyes anymore. >.> So I'll vote Superblackcat, as they(genderwhutidunno) look to have been active-lurking for the last long while, without really contributing. Plus, you know, the whole ground that's already been trodden upon stuff with buddy-stabbing. :D

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 2 Robot, You - ONE REPLACEMENT NEEDED!
Post by: Imp on October 22, 2013, 07:26:27 am

Zombie Urist:

Would you please prod Darvi, Mr.Zero, and Superblackcat? 

Heya Rolepgeek!  I've read your post.  I wonder why you didn't answer any of my questions in your post. 

Quote from: Rolepgeek on October 21, 2013, 09:35:31 pm

At another time, when I have more time(Aka, the weekends), I will be able to chop through your WoT.

Why are you talking about needing more time (aka the weekends) when you didn't ask for an extension, and haven't yet used weekend time yet (at least to post) for this game?  Should I interpret this as a current refusal to answer my questions, as a deflection of attention away from yourself, or as something else?  Trying to buck that 'assumption' trend you were talking about - and I'd hate to misunderstand either.

Quote from: Rolepgeek on October 21, 2013, 09:35:31 pm

AND NOW FOR THE IMPORTANT PART DUR DUR DURRR
Since it's a tie, I need to vote someone, to break it at the least. I'm not actually going to vote Imp, since I'm starting to think she has important things to make clear, and I want to give her a chance to cut stuff down so she isn't fucking with my eyes anymore. >.> So I'll vote Superblackcat, as they(genderwhutidunno) look to have been active-lurking for the last long while, without really contributing. Plus, you know, the whole ground that's already been trodden upon stuff with buddy-stabbing. :D

While I agree that Superblackcat's doing some disgusting high level lack of scumhunting (he's not alone there - to me you are approximately equal/maybe slightly worse in terms of lack of visible scumhunting), would you explain more about what you mean by the trodden-ground buddy-stabbing?  Link(s) or post #(s) would be helpful too, but I'd like to understand your reasoning, please.  I get the 'gotta tie break' and 'active lurking' portions.  Can you help me understand that your vote's reasoning isn't "picking someone out of a hat" level thought - or that it actually goes to "I've been scumhunting" levels?

Here's some of my questions you didn't answer previously, in case you get time somehow to answer any of them.  They all come from here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4698844#msg4698844), so if you need further context it's there.

1  Please explain your thinking on why the Persus NK was smart?  And explain how that night kill choice might have been chosen to shove suspicion on you?

Quote from: Rolepgeek on October 18, 2013, 08:28:17 pm

Quote from: Deathsword on October 15, 2013, 12:34:23 pm

Rolepgeek asked to replace. When someone asks for that, it usually means they stop posting. You yourself said you voted him because you had nothing else to do with said vote. Now you talk about your previous play, but it is this very same previous play that makes your disregard as to where your vote goes more glaring. Is the vote yours to use as you see fit? Yes. It still does not exempt you from being called out on it.

As an addition, Imp, you never responded to this portion of his post.

2  I see no questions; that is his response to my response.  What sort of further response are you looking for?

You clearly wanted something from me.  What did/do you want in regards to this?

3  You have called Deathsword your top Town, because "his posts have plenty of good activity and scum-hunting from what [you] can tell".  What good activity, what good scumhunting?  This is NOT a snarky question, I'm genuinely confused and have read all of his posts in this thread multiple times.  What am I missing that you are catching? - because I don't see this at all.

Quote from: Rolepgeek on October 18, 2013, 08:28:17 pm

3. I doubt we're going to lose. As long as we can get just one scum, our odds drastically improve, statistically and otherwise. More time to get the next one, info on who tried to help them, etc.

4  What are you basing this belief on?  Of the last 42 BM games in the forum - Town won only 7 times.   Even when one Scum is lynched, in past games the single surviving Scum still defeated the Town well over 50% of the time.  What's got you so sure of a Town victory?

Those are not all the questions I asked you, but they're probably the most important if you're only going to answer a limited number.

Err, to conclude:

Quote from: Rolepgeek on October 21, 2013, 09:35:31 pm

The assumption that WoTs are the best way to go about communicating in this game. Be honest Imp. Really be honest. If everyone, if all nine people, were as [let's go with dedicated] as you, how do you think it'd go? WoTs and Counter-WoTs everywhere. Do you really think you'd have the time to read all that? Let alone respond?

Yes to both.  I'm aware that I read faster than most, but during the course of this game I've read several other finished Mafia games, in full.  I enjoy reading and commonly read hundreds of pages of text (written book pages) a day because I want to read it.

I don't assume WoTs are the way to go.  If everyone says what they have to say, makes their points, does their scumhunting, and answers questions with 50 words or 5,000 - what I'm looking for is what's said.  Can I understand it, can I follow it, what does it say about the writer's motivations, intentions, and all the rest that I need to know to do my own scumhunting.

No promises about shortening my posts.  I'm willing to try, but if I need 5,000 words I'm using them.  I will try to use more summaries again.  I tried them before, but people still complained, so I stopped (thus shortening my posts by the length of the summary at least).

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 2 Robot, You - TWO REPLACEMENTS NEEDED
Post by: zombie urist on October 22, 2013, 12:48:04 pm

Darvi and superblackcat have been prodded.

Mr. Zero has asked for a replacement.

Day ends in ~10 hours.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 2 Robot, You - ONE REPLACEMENT NEEDED!
Post by: Squill on October 22, 2013, 03:00:38 pm

Quote from: Imp on October 21, 2013, 07:38:21 pm

Err.  Is that your entire analysis of Mr.Zero?  That' he's been fairly inactive lately?  I don't just want to evaluate your thinking, I'd also like to see him through someone else's eyes; yours and anyone else's.  There were a few concerns about him, especially near the end of D1.  I'd really like to be able to consider another's view of his play.  I hope you have more to add...

Sorry, but... I really don't. While I am getting a sort of scummy gut reaction from Mr. Zero, I really don't have any sort of coherent evidence against him.

Also, @RPG: Please, do not write WoT's criticizing other players for writing WoT's. It... doesn't look good.

I'm still thinking, and I'll get back if I come up with anything else, but for now I'm just posting in case I can't get back to my computer later.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 2 Robot, You - TWO REPLACEMENTS NEEDED
Post by: Imp on October 22, 2013, 07:56:50 pm

This sucks.  ~3 hours to end of day and wow, the inactivity.

2 votes on Superblackcat.  Previously I thought he was seriously scummy and probably Scum; now I think he's seriously Scummy and probably Town who cannot play any better than he is.  In terms of losing him as a player - not much loss.  In terms of likelihood of a mislynch - we can barely afford a mislynch if he is one.

As I consider switching my vote to something that might have meaning (since we've a 4-way second place tie) I see this:  I'd have to take my vote off of Rolepgeek, so he's not in the running if I do, and I of course wouldn't vote for me, so I'm not in the running.

So I have a choice of placing a second vote on Darvi,  who I have no real feel of in terms of Town or Scum; he played to teach us how to play and voted based on poor playing versus it being improved (which is good teaching but maybe not good Scumhunting), or Mr.Zero, who I lean toward Town, (That said, weak scumhunting, solid tunneling, and now absense/replacement request).

Or I can place a third vote on Superblackcat; with the inactivity we see, that would almost certainly assure his lynch.

I most want to see Rolepgeek or Deathsword be lynched, seriously scummy and weird dynamic between them as well, Rolepgeek has a tendancy to defend people (probably a null tell, since it's generalized) and Deathsword has a recent tendancy to defend Rolepgeek (hrm!)  for whatever that means.  If we had time to play with, I wouldn't mind a Superblackcat lynch, we're not losing much but time in losing that player.  Supernatural 4 has some interesting discussion on why considering the least bad mislynch is a total waste of time, I'm still thinking that one over...  But yeah, vote scummiest.

I don't get part of Rolepgeek's pick of Superblackcat, which I've already talked about.  I'm suspicious of it though, in part because I'm highly suspicious of Rolepgeek and partially because that reasoning supporting the pick looks 'picked from a hat' to me.  He's also really happy to not answer any of my questions; gosh if he or I die before D3 now he won't ever have to, will he?

Of the other players, Squill is at least active today; seems perfectly content to let Superblackcat hang with two votes, his vote's still on Darvi with no support of extension request, his argument for Darvi's lynch seeming to be only that Darvi disappeared, came back with an oops post, and then disappeared again.  Can't say that isn't scummy, but this vote setup makes it very unlikely without further persuasion that Darvi will hang - Two people would have to be swayed to support that lynch.

Is any player still around and active tonight?  Is there anyone I can talk with here and try to work out a mutually agreed upon best choice for lynch, given the very narrow range of realistic choices possible?  I'll be checking back in aboiut an hour; speak up or it looks like we're probably all living with a Superblackcat lynch.

I -can- live with that.  I just don't think he's the scummiest, and I dread the cost of another mislynch.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 2 Robot, You - TWO REPLACEMENTS NEEDED
Post by: Imp on October 22, 2013, 10:12:05 pm

Whelp, as the 'eleventh hour' counts down I'll just say this as my closing words, because I'll get to check again right before 9 PM, but probably without enough time to post much of anything - and for all I know, I won't be alive D3:

I've drank some of the whine trying to wrap my head around this, and I don't see any sense in Rolepgeek bussing Superblackcat the way the game's played out.  If Superblackcat is the D2 lynch and Cat is proved Scum, I believe it's highly unlikely that Rolepgeek is also Scum - despite the scumminess I see and have spoken of in Rolepgeek.

Sadly the inverse, if Superblackcat is Town, doesn't suggest guilt or innocence for Rolepgeek, at least not to the brand of whine I've got available;  Rolepgeek would be as much of a suspect as he had been before, however much or little that is to those of us who survive.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 2 Robot, You - TWO REPLACEMENTS NEEDED
Post by: zombie urist on October 22, 2013, 10:56:51 pm

[1] Mr.Zero - Superblackcat
[1] Imp - Deathsword
[1] Darvi - Squill
[1] Rolepgeek - Imp
[2] Superblackcat - Mr.Zero, Rolepgeek

[1] Not voting - Darvi

I guess I'll mod extend 24-hours because activity is realllly low and everyone who's voting for the current lynch candidate is asking for a replacement.

Day ends in about 24 hours from now.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 2 Robot, You - TWO REPLACEMENTS NEEDED
Post by: Tiruin on October 22, 2013, 11:36:07 pm

Quote from: zombie urist on October 22, 2013, 10:56:51 pm

I guess I'll mod extend 24-hours because activity is realllly low and everyone who's voting for the current lynch candidate is asking for a replacement.

Oh goodness, seriously?

[Note for those asking for a replacement while voting. ENSURE THAT YOU HAVE SOMETHING TO EITHER BACK YOUR VOTE, OR UNVOTE IT. Because it's really a cheap move if you lay your vote on a person and no replacement comes back. It's like ghost voting because of respect that you are, technically, not there to defend yourself due to reasons leading to your replacement.

...>_>]

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 2 Robot, You - TWO REPLACEMENTS NEEDED
Post by: Superblackcat on October 23, 2013, 12:18:48 am

Ehh, sorry, I've been really busy.

Extend

RPG: you are voting me for... being busy, while you have been trying to play and not play at the same time.


Can we get an mod extension untill atleast one of these people gets replaced? I don't want to die from two people who isn't even supposed to be playing anymore.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 2 Robot, You - TWO REPLACEMENTS NEEDED
Post by: Superblackcat on October 23, 2013, 12:22:41 am

Also:

Unvote: I will not kill someone asking for a replacement without any activity.

RPG: Nor can I vote someone to tie up to votes if ZU decides not to extend.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 2 Robot, You - TWO REPLACEMENTS NEEDED
Post by: Imp on October 23, 2013, 02:04:35 am

Hey Superblackcat:  What is Scumhunting?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 2 Robot, You - TWO REPLACEMENTS NEEDED
Post by: Tiruin on October 23, 2013, 04:56:34 am

Quote from: Superblackcat on October 23, 2013, 12:18:48 am

Ehh, sorry, I've been really busy.

Yesss~ you're alive!

Quote from: Superblackcat on October 23, 2013, 12:18:48 am

Can we get an mod extension untill atleast one of these people gets replaced? I don't want to die from two people who isn't even supposed to be playing anymore.

Ok, I don't usually do this, but when I do, it's out of curiosity.

Anyone from the peanut galley know the notes on this situation?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 2 Robot, You - TWO REPLACEMENTS NEEDED
Post by: Squill on October 23, 2013, 05:13:43 am

Going to school in a few minutes, so extend.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 2 Robot, You - TWO REPLACEMENTS NEEDED
Post by: Imp on October 23, 2013, 06:35:15 am

Say what?  Sure, extend. 

Squill.  What's different about today than yesterday?  Why ask to extend now when you didn't the day before, and when time went down to the end and D2 would have ended but for a last second mod extension?  Are you planning on doing any Scumhunting with this extra time, should this extension happen?  Why or why not?

I'm still interested in your thoughts on Mr.Zero, though with his silence+request replacement going on that's maybe less important for evaluating him and only important for however useable your ideas prove for attempting to evaluate you.  Also still interested in your overall analysis of Deathsword (analysis of his and my recently interactions noted and appreciated).

So tossing you another person to discuss your opinion of, possibly in place of Mr.Zero if you choose to say absolutely nothing about your thoughts about him: what are your thoughts on Superblackcat?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 2 Robot, You - TWO REPLACEMENTS NEEDED
Post by: Imp on October 23, 2013, 02:48:35 pm

Quote from: zombie urist on October 22, 2013, 12:48:04 pm

Darvi and superblackcat have been prodded.

Mr. Zero has asked for a replacement.

Day ends in ~10 hours.

It has been ~26 hours since your post stating that Darvi was prodded.  He has been active on the forum and posted elsewhere multiple times since then.

Would you please do whatever is done to players who behave as he is doing over this time duration?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 2 Robot, You - TWO REPLACEMENTS NEEDED
Post by: Squill on October 23, 2013, 05:25:31 pm

Quote from: Imp on October 23, 2013, 06:35:15 am

Say what?  Sure, extend. 

Squill.  What's different about today than yesterday?  Why ask to extend now when you didn't the day before, and when time went down to the end and D2 would have ended but for a last second mod extension?  Are you planning on doing any Scumhunting with this extra time, should this extension happen?  Why or why not?

I'm still interested in your thoughts on Mr.Zero, though with his silence+request replacement going on that's maybe less important for evaluating him and only important for however useable your ideas prove for attempting to evaluate you.  Also still interested in your overall analysis of Deathsword (analysis of his and my recently interactions noted and appreciated).

So tossing you another person to discuss your opinion of, possibly in place of Mr.Zero if you choose to say absolutely nothing about your thoughts about him: what are your thoughts on Superblackcat?

I think it's because I realized that we have two players dead, one asking for replacement and inactive, one asking for replacement and semi-active, and one mysteriously vanished.

Really, it's only me, Deathsword, SBC, and you.

As for Mr. Zero, I think that his request for replacement could very well be because he's a scum, new to the game, that couldn't take the pressure.
SBC, I think, is not giving me extremely scummy vibes, but not very town either. Right now, I'm leaning a bit towards scum, but I'm probably just paying more attention to him because nearly half the other players are gone.
@Darvi: Have you stopped even pretending to care about this game?
@RPG: You have been one of the most consistently antagonistic players in this game. Why is that?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 2 Robot, You - TWO REPLACEMENTS NEEDED
Post by: Imp on October 23, 2013, 06:13:27 pm

Quote from: Squill on October 23, 2013, 05:25:31 pm

I think it's because I realized that we have two players dead, one asking for replacement and inactive, one asking for replacement and semi-active, and one mysteriously vanished.

Really, it's only me, Deathsword, SBC, and you.

This analysis makes sense.  You say you just realized it, which is what's different about today than yesterday.  What was your understanding yesterday?

Quote from: Squill on October 23, 2013, 05:25:31 pm

As for Mr. Zero, I think that his request for replacement could very well be because he's a scum, new to the game, that couldn't take the pressure.

Your answer makes me feel really uncomfortable.  I'm trying to ask you about your overall impression of him, not just or only the most recent impressions you have floating somehow 'isolated in a moment of now-ness', which is what you're repeatedly offering me in place of an overall analysis.

None the less, now you're telling me you think he's cracking under the pressure of being Scum.  What pressure are you talking about?  Simply the pressure of having drawn a Scum role (if he did), or the pressure we other players are putting him under?  If it's the pressure others are placing on him, would you please link and or quote so I can understand what your reasoning is working on?

And why are you completely avoiding providing any further analysis of Deathsword?  Why are you avoiding offering any 'older than a few days' analysis at all so far, despite being specifically asked for overall considerations?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 2 Robot, You - TWO REPLACEMENTS NEEDED
Post by: Squill on October 23, 2013, 08:17:38 pm

Quote from: Imp on October 23, 2013, 06:13:27 pm

Quote from: Squill on October 23, 2013, 05:25:31 pm

I think it's because I realized that we have two players dead, one asking for replacement and inactive, one asking for replacement and semi-active, and one mysteriously vanished.

Really, it's only me, Deathsword, SBC, and you.

This analysis makes sense.  You say you just realized it, which is what's different about today than yesterday.  What was your understanding yesterday?

Okay, first question: My understanding yesterday was basically the same, but it was between yesterday and that point that I really thought about it and realized there were only four active players. I was thinking about how inactive the game was, and how it shouldn't be possible for seven people to do that little. I just kinda mulled it over and realized that if we are going to get any information out of the day, we'd need more than half the players to be playing.

Quote from: Imp on October 23, 2013, 06:13:27 pm

Quote from: Squill on October 23, 2013, 05:25:31 pm

As for Mr. Zero, I think that his request for replacement could very well be because he's a scum, new to the game, that couldn't take the pressure.

Your answer makes me feel really uncomfortable.  I'm trying to ask you about your overall impression of him, not just or only the most recent impressions you have floating somehow 'isolated in a moment of now-ness', which is what you're repeatedly offering me in place of an overall analysis.

None the less, now you're telling me you think he's cracking under the pressure of being Scum.  What pressure are you talking about?  Simply the pressure of having drawn a Scum role (if he did), or the pressure we other players are putting him under?  If it's the pressure others are placing on him, would you please link and or quote so I can understand what your reasoning is working on?

And why are you completely avoiding providing any further analysis of Deathsword?  Why are you avoiding offering any 'older than a few days' analysis at all so far, despite being specifically asked for overall considerations?

I just went back and re-read all of Mr. Zero's posts using the lurker tracker. To me, it looks like he was always fairly reclusive and defensive, except for one front: Superblackcat. For whatever reason, Mr. Zero has been voting for SBC for pretty much the whole game, except to lynch kleril (which he tied SBC to anyways.). While I'm not entirely sure if that is considered "scummy," it is certainly bizarre, and not very helpful to town.

As for the pressure, I mean the pressure of being scum. The fact that people have voted for him throughout the game certainly wouldn't help.

As for Deathsword, what I said in this post (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4705238#msg4705238) still stands. My view on Deathsword (Who has been inactive for 56 hours) still stands, and as such I see no reason to post more.

But right now, I think I will unvote. With three, potentially four people inactive, I just can't feel comfortable in voting, as I know that I don't have the whole picture, or nearly as much as I should have.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 2 Robot, You - TWO REPLACEMENTS NEEDED
Post by: Rolepgeek on October 23, 2013, 10:20:26 pm

Quote from: Imp link=topic=130600.msg4706785#msg4706785 dat=1382444784

Heya Rolepgeek! I've read your post. I wonder why you didn't answer any of my questions in your post.

That's the post I'm referring to here. Here's my responses.

0a. I didn't ask for an extension because I forgot to. I had been planning to whilst writing it up, but I didn't get to it before I'd posted, and didn't remember that I hadn't until it was too late. Or I thought it was. I will, however, ask for one now. In addition, when I say weekends, I include Fridays.

0b. I meant how other people had already discussed and commented on how he'd back stabbed Kleril. I felt no need to repeat what had already been said. You know, where he turned on Kleril pretty fast after it became clear people weren't happy at the buddying?

1. I feel like this has been discussed already. Answer: because it left the most people alive who were still pointing fingers. Other Answer: If Mr. Zero was right, in that the Perseus Nightkill was inherently confusing, then my comment about NKing to confuse people if I were mafia could be used against me to aim suspicion my way.

2. You responded to other posts and parts of that port where no direct questions were asked. He was calling you out on something and you did not reply to it when you referenced the post. Only part you didn't, in fact, if I remember correctly.

3. I'm seeing that when he does have time to post, he makes it count. I'm not referring to when he's simply giving IC advice, or telling us he can't post, but when he does get the time to truly post. At those times, it looks like he's giving good effort and looking for scum, from my little experience in the game.

4. Simple. Being confident is better than not, if nothing else, and I'm also fairly sure that confidence will help bring us to victory. Plus, my last game, I figured out who the scum was and we were slain by a misunderstanding. I doubt that'll happen this game.

Quote from: Superblackcat on October 23, 2013, 12:18:48 am

Ehh, sorry, I've been really busy.

Extend

RPG: you are voting me for... being busy, while you have been trying to play and not play at the same time.


Can we get an mod extension untill atleast one of these people gets replaced? I don't want to die from two people who isn't even supposed to be playing anymore.

I'm voting you for not even attempting to scum hunt, busy or not. I've been trying to scum hunt, even if I don't feel I have enough time to do so as I would prefer.

And as I've said before, I'm going to play until I get replaced as best I can; it's just that that's not very good and I'd rather someone with more time take over if they could, as it would benefit us more.

Quote from: Squill on October 23, 2013, 05:25:31 pm

@RPG: You have been one of the most consistently antagonistic players in this game. Why is that?

Aggressive is the name of the game. Team sport yes, as I've said, but I have to try and break you to see if you're a squishy scum or a shiny town inside, below the posting exterior. To do this, I go after whom I can. Without time, I am forced to react, rather than act, which is why (at least lately) I've been focused on Imp; he's been the most active, thus I have the most to respond to.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 2 Robot, You - TWO REPLACEMENTS NEEDED
Post by: Superblackcat on October 23, 2013, 11:35:31 pm

@Imp:

Scumhunting, in my opinion, is actively searching for scum. Then in between that and lurking, is pointing out scummy things, putting pressure(rarely) and kind of being there. Then there is lurking, where there is no activity.

RPG, What about me is scummy? You still haven't explained, well at least, What I understood is that I wasn't here, and you didn't like it. Continued to think I was lurking, and voted me. So if that's true, why have you not unvoted me.

Ok, Sorry, I want just reread your post, and saw you had more reason than that.

It's true that I have not actively pursued any person today. But that is basically because, out of the people that are active, (Imp, Squill, me and you) I don't want to vote Imp and Squill, because I don't think they are scummy. You are asking for a replacement, and I don't want your replacement to come here with votes that aren't his fault.

Darvi you said you forgot, by saying that, I assume you remember and don't have amnesia. (Correct me if I am wrong). Therefore, you should be here right? Except you have had no activity here, while having activity on the forum.

(If someone says something about the pot calling the kettle black or something) I have not even been able to come onto the forum, and the first thread I do check if I do come to the forum is this thread. I have posted everysingle time.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 2 Robot, You - TWO REPLACEMENTS NEEDED
Post by: Superblackcat on October 23, 2013, 11:36:06 pm

Cross out the "want" In section 4.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 2 Robot, You - TWO REPLACEMENTS NEEDED
Post by: zombie urist on October 23, 2013, 11:44:20 pm

Day extended to Friday Oct 25 9PM

Both ICs have been prodded.  :-\

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 2 Robot, You - TWO REPLACEMENTS NEEDED
Post by: Tiruin on October 24, 2013, 12:22:11 am

Quote from: zombie urist on October 23, 2013, 11:44:20 pm

Both ICs have been prodded.  :-\

*Ahem*
:P

Everyone's too busy I take it?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 2 Robot, You - TWO REPLACEMENTS NEEDED
Post by: Imp on October 24, 2013, 04:54:44 am

Quote from: Squill on October 23, 2013, 08:17:38 pm

But right now, I think I will unvote. With three, potentially four people inactive, I just can't feel comfortable in voting, as I know that I don't have the whole picture, or nearly as much as I should have.

What do you envision or imagine happening, if this game continues to progress as it has been?  Assuming each player's play stays similar to how it's been, the requested replaces just don't appear as the days keep passing, and zombie urist doesn't step in to say 'enough, we are paused' or 'enough, game called on account of rain' - if we're left to muddle around in our own devices and all of us (except maybe you) play as we have been so far - what sorts of choices do you see yourself making?  I'd call your current strategy 'try to wait it out, can't get anything done as is'; is that an accurate assessment, and do you think you'd keep using this strategy as time passes without change?

Quote from: Superblackcat on October 23, 2013, 11:35:31 pm

@Imp:

Scumhunting, in my opinion, is actively searching for scum. Then in between that and lurking, is pointing out scummy things, putting pressure(rarely) and kind of being there. Then there is lurking, where there is no activity.

Neat.  Would you define active lurking, please?

Rolepgeek:  I hear you that I'm a good reaction target for you, I'm active and give you lots to grind up.  Think any Scum (even considering me Scum, there's at least one other) are using a lower level of activity to hide in general/hide from you?

Considering the state of this game, what do you think we should be doing, we as a group of players that contains both Scum and Town, with players running the gamut from high activity to high absence, what's a reasonable sort of 'plan to progress' with as is?

Quote from: Rolepgeek on October 23, 2013, 10:20:26 pm

0b. I meant how other people had already discussed and commented on how he'd back stabbed Kleril. I felt no need to repeat what had already been said. You know, where he turned on Kleril pretty fast after it became clear people weren't happy at the buddying?

4. Simple. Being confident is better than not, if nothing else, and I'm also fairly sure that confidence will help bring us to victory. Plus, my last game, I figured out who the scum was and we were slain by a misunderstanding. I doubt that'll happen this game.

Who are your Scum picks now?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 2 Robot, You - TWO REPLACEMENTS NEEDED
Post by: Teneb on October 24, 2013, 09:09:21 am

Unvote

Request replacement

I don't like having to do this, but I don't have much choice. I'll still try to give IC advice when needed until a replacement is found.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 2 Robot, You - TWO REPLACEMENTS NEEDED
Post by: zombie urist on October 24, 2013, 12:21:05 pm

FFFFUUUUUU!

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 2 Robot, You - ONE REPLACEMENT NEEDED!
Post by: Tiruin on October 24, 2013, 03:31:56 pm

'Red laser' marks emerge from the viewfinders on ZOM-B's hardware as the orb retreats into his secret compartment.

          He levels the spectrometric level on a few to shift to the wavelength patterns of the sun at dusk.

          A few of you are painted orange. Those found to be in need of rebooting.

          The red light shines. Granted, its wavelength permits the lack of dispersion in the air, the more philosophical of you muse.

          You feel a certain tension in the air. This is not a roguelike.

1 2 1 3

Imp -   Squill   Rolepgeek - Imp   Superblackcat - Mr.Zero, Rolepgeek   Mr.Zero   Deathsword   Darvi - Squill   Not Voting: Darvi, Superblackcat, Deathsword

Rolepgeek and Deathsword^IC have asked for a replacement!


Extend - 0/3
Shorten - 0/4

Today will end on Tuesday, October 25nd at 9pm PST (http://www.timeanddate.com/countdown/generic?iso=20131026T05&p0=145&msg=Day+2+End&csz=1)

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I've converted PST (-8 GMT) to my timezone = +8 GMT

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 2 Robot, You - TWO REPLACEMENTS NEEDED
Post by: Squill on October 24, 2013, 03:47:10 pm

Quote from: Rolepgeek on October 23, 2013, 10:20:26 pm

Quote from: Squill on October 23, 2013, 05:25:31 pm

@RPG: You have been one of the most consistently antagonistic players in this game. Why is that?

Aggressive is the name of the game. Team sport yes, as I've said, but I have to try and break you to see if you're a squishy scum or a shiny town inside, below the posting exterior. To do this, I go after whom I can. Without time, I am forced to react, rather than act, which is why (at least lately) I've been focused on Imp; he's been the most active, thus I have the most to respond to.

There is a very distinct mark between aggressive and antagonistic. Imp is aggressive. You are antagonistic.

Quote from: Imp on October 24, 2013, 04:54:44 am

Quote from: Squill on October 23, 2013, 08:17:38 pm

But right now, I think I will unvote. With three, potentially four people inactive, I just can't feel comfortable in voting, as I know that I don't have the whole picture, or nearly as much as I should have.

What do you envision or imagine happening, if this game continues to progress as it has been?  Assuming each player's play stays similar to how it's been, the requested replaces just don't appear as the days keep passing, and zombie urist doesn't step in to say 'enough, we are paused' or 'enough, game called on account of rain' - if we're left to muddle around in our own devices and all of us (except maybe you) play as we have been so far - what sorts of choices do you see yourself making?  I'd call your current strategy 'try to wait it out, can't get anything done as is'; is that an accurate assessment, and do you think you'd keep using this strategy as time passes without change?

I was thinking that if nobody is replaced when this extension ends, we should stop delaying and play the damn game.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 2 Robot, You - TWO REPLACEMENTS NEEDED
Post by: Imp on October 24, 2013, 09:30:19 pm

Tried to say this earlier in a PM to Tiruin, but I don't get to PM that player anymore for a bit; so saying it here.

Our recent vote count and day end is a bit borked; I believe it should look like this:

  Imp
  Squill
  Rolepgeek - Imp
  Superblackcat - Mr.Zero, Rolepgeek
  Mr.Zero
  Deathsword
  Darvi - Superblackcat

  Not Voting: Darvi, Deathsword, Squill

Rolepgeek and DeathswordIC have asked for a replacement!


Extend - 0/3
Shorten - 0/4



Today will end on Friday, October 25nd at 9pm PST

zombie urist, what's your decision about our game?  No matter what, someday its scumchat and deadchat are going open for all to view, right?  I'm really interested in their contents, even if this BM game goes the way of the few others which were simply stopped in the middle, their number reused a bit later with a new start.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 2 Robot, You - TWO REPLACEMENTS NEEDED
Post by: Superblackcat on October 24, 2013, 10:35:39 pm

MrZero Also asked for a replacement if irc.


Can we put this game on hold until people can play? Currently 3 players are active.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 2 Robot, You - TWO REPLACEMENTS NEEDED
Post by: Tiruin on October 24, 2013, 11:18:21 pm

Ayep! I totally messed up Deathsword's vote! D:

Quote from: Imp on October 24, 2013, 09:30:19 pm

zombie urist, what's your decision about our game?  No matter what, someday its scumchat and deadchat are going open for all to view, right?  I'm really interested in their contents, even if this BM game goes the way of the few others which were simply stopped in the middle, their number reused a bit later with a new start.

The scumchat and deadchat will be open for all to view post-game. That happens in every every every game. All quicktopic topics (or team chats) made by the mod will be revealed--if you choose to make your own quicktopic for your own notes and/or talking, then it. . .is mostly generally accepted, provided that..well, its mostly for your own talking and such.

Quote from: Superblackcat on October 24, 2013, 10:35:39 pm

MrZero Also asked for a replacement if irc.


Can we put this game on hold until people can play? Currently 3 players are active.

Do you hear, do you hear,
the call of man's fear?
The stalling, the waiting,
the idle in the night.

This reminds me of the time wherein most people asked for a replacement and few volunteered to replace in. It was a bad time.  :-\

Also heads up-given that the deadchat I know is mostly dead, I'm being requested in for a replacement of DEATHSWORD.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 2 Robot, You - TWO REPLACEMENTS NEEDED
Post by: zombie urist on October 24, 2013, 11:21:00 pm

Tiruin's replacing in for Deathsword. Technically she has access to deadchat but there's not too much stuff there so I think its ok this time. I will be creating a new deadchat for new dead people.

  Imp
  Squill
  Rolepgeek - Imp
  Superblackcat - Rolepgeek
  Mr.Zero
  Deathsword
  Darvi - Superblackcat

  Not Voting: Darvi, Deathsword, Squill

Rolepgeek and Mr.Zero have asked for a replacement!

Extend - 0/3
Shorten - 0/4

I'm unvoting for Mr.Zero since he's not playing, but I'll keep Rolepgeek's since he's semi-active.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 2 Robot, You - TWO REPLACEMENTS NEEDED
Post by: zombie urist on October 24, 2013, 11:24:46 pm

Quote from: Imp on October 24, 2013, 09:30:19 pm

zombie urist, what's your decision about our game?  No matter what, someday its scumchat and deadchat are going open for all to view, right?  I'm really interested in their contents, even if this BM game goes the way of the few others which were simply stopped in the middle, their number reused a bit later with a new start.

All QT's will be available after the game.

Quote from: Superblackcat on October 24, 2013, 10:35:39 pm

Can we put this game on hold until people can play? Currently 3 players are active.

I'm trying my best not to do that since it'll be much harder finding a time that's convenient for everyone. Also people will forget their reads and such.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 2 Robot, You - TWO REPLACEMENTS NEEDED
Post by: Imp on October 25, 2013, 03:49:55 am

Hrm.  This game again.  *gearshift*

So, Tiruin.

Need time to catch up on the thread?  I'll support anyone's requests for an extension at this point.

Already caught up on the thread?  What do you feel should be said by you at this point, you player and you {IC}?

I'll have less generalized questions for you after I read your answer(s) to that one.

Superblackcat

You have posted.  But failed to answer my question.  I repeat it now:

Would you define active lurking, please?

Squill

Where have all the flowers gone?  Err... I mean, so a player has a role, right?  And they play it, and then (some of them, bah) ask for a replace.  Then there's a new player, or maybe there's not.  That new player plays however they do, if there is one.  But the role hasn't changed.  That original role is still sitting there, and if it's a Scum role it's just begging for a lynch.

To your thinking, how important is a current playstyle in your decision to lynch or not?  To you, are we lynching roles, playstyles, both, or something else?

Reminder to all, it's about 19 hours to end of D, if there are not three more extension requests.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 2 Robot, You - TWO REPLACEMENTS NEEDED
Post by: Imp on October 25, 2013, 03:50:07 pm

... about 7 hours to end of D.  Nothing has changed since my last post.  No one speaks for extends yet, no one speaks of anything else....

I now need to consider how I want to use my vote for end of D.

My current strong scum reads, across the entire game, are Rolepgeek and Deathsword-now-Tiruin.  Presuming this silent apathy continues, neither is possible to lynch as the board currently stands.

I do not say that Tiruin's Scummy too - there's been no time for that player to show anything of their play in this game as a player.  But she holds a role that looked incredibly scummy to me before - if it was possible to lynch either Rolepgeek or Deathsword-now-Tiruin, one of those two would have my vote now to help ensure that lynch.

I have three choices.  zombie urist really has the power, it's his call to say what happens, if this game 'mod extends' again or what.  However, he is going to allow this game to go to the last second, -again- before he reveals his choice in that regard.  Therefore I have to prepare my choice, in case his choice is to let the D end.  I will say that the entirety of this game has now fully passed from 'neat' to 'aggravating' to me.  I feel like the rules are unpredictably changing, that I'm very close to the only player that cares about this game AND is trying to actively play it, and I feel like I'm being jerked around - possibly not purposefully, but that's the result; I and my play are being jerked around in several different ways and there's precious little I can do about it, short of refusing to continue to play and asking for a replacement too - which I also refuse to do.

I do not trust anyone to be active in this thread in time before D end.  I will remain periodically active throughout the day, so I am responsive if people actually start posting.  Note that it will take MULTIPLE people to vote an extension through, with or without my help and it is only an IF that zombie MAY decide to mod extend.  Thus I am both forced to play WIFOM with SILENCE from almost everyone, -and- I'm forced to prepare for a D end that may or may not be Mod extended -AGAIN-, despite rules talking about how if extensions are not used there will be no further extensions - and that this extension has essentially gone unused.  Furthermore - Darvi's been essentially silent for 2 weeks now, making the role he owns silent or essentially silent for 3 of the 4 weeks this game has been played over.  OMGU(all)S - everyone.  That's how I feel right now about this game overall.  By the rules we are even supposed to be currently ineligible for further extensions - because we haven't USED this current one!

So, the freaking vote, which apparently I, Robot am the only player that seriously cares about:

I can allow a tie, which currently exists.  I can do this by not changing my vote, or by unvoting, which would turn a three way tie into a two way tie; no significant difference.

I can switch my vote to Superblackcat.  I do think he's a very weak, probably Town player.  I'm not sure he's Town, but if he's Scum he's doing a FANTASTIC job of making me think he's a very weak probably Town player - I can't see him as having an actual Scum role and doing exactly what he's done - period.  I can support his lynch because he's a very weak player who's shown a lot of Scumminess - that's a reasonable lynch.  And I know I could be wrong and he could be Scum.  I was willing to see his roleflip a few days ago, when my only choice seemed to be to create a tie or permit him to be a probable mislynch, or try to guarantee him as a probable mislynch.

I can switch my vote to Griffinpup-became-Darvi.  I have asked for this role to be modkilled after a week of silence.  Instead it was replaced.  I got no read I could understand on Darvi during the week he spoke - except that he was interested in helping us learn how to play.  Appreciated, but a null-tell.  However, that role has again been silent.  And stayed silent.  For TWO MORE WEEKS.  THIS ROLE HAS BEEN SILENT FOR THREE WEEKS OF PLAY AND THE MOD IS NOT DOING ANYTHING ABOUT IT.

I asked for that role to be modkilled.  That didn't happen.  That role is now a possible lynch target, if everyone stays as inactive as they consistently stay.

Fine.  Darvi-who-holds-Griffinpup's-role.  If you won't be modkilled or even FREAKING AUTOMATICALLY REPLACED within two-more-weeks-of-nearly-utter-silence, then you can be lynched today.

I don't have ANY idea if you're Scum or not - you're null-tell to me.  This game as a WHOLE is jerking my chain so much, I no longer care.  I do want the game to end or be cancelled - I do want to see roleflips - I do want closure.  I'm ready to move this game towards end, win or lose.

Deathsword and Rolepgeek - you are interested in seeing how I break?  -This- is how I break.  I break not from player pressure, but from inconsistent application of rules, especially over time.  I break from generalized apathy around me combined with feeling a complete inability to predict the outcome of my own or others choices - because rules are not being consistently applied and enforced, and indeed change 'as needed' over time. *spits*

Yes, mod, I am yelling at -you-.  I'm so annoyed at this game for a whole bunch of reasons which include your inconsistent application of the game's rules that I'm tempted to make two posts for the pure purpose of editing each of them to see if you'd enforce -that- rule at least.

Quote from: zombie urist on October 24, 2013, 11:21:00 pm

I will be creating a new deadchat for new dead people.

Will the old dead people also have access to the new deadchat?  Should I end up dead before the end of the game, there's a few things I'd like to attempt to discuss with one or both of the old dead.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 2 Robot, You - TWO REPLACEMENTS NEEDED
Post by: Squill on October 25, 2013, 04:31:34 pm

Quote from: Imp on October 25, 2013, 03:49:55 am

Squill

Where have all the flowers gone?  Err... I mean, so a player has a role, right?  And they play it, and then (some of them, bah) ask for a replace.  Then there's a new player, or maybe there's not.  That new player plays however they do, if there is one.  But the role hasn't changed.  That original role is still sitting there, and if it's a Scum role it's just begging for a lynch.

To your thinking, how important is a current playstyle in your decision to lynch or not?  To you, are we lynching roles, playstyles, both, or something else?

I am voting based on playstyle. Darvi's really getting on my nerves, because he comes in, accuses me with seeming surety that I am scum, then promptly vanishes.
To me, he wasn't accusing me so much as the most convenient target. He was voting, then saying, "Oh look! I can scumhunt," then leaving.

Quote from: Imp on October 25, 2013, 03:50:07 pm

I do not trust anyone to be active in this thread in time before D end.  I will remain periodically active throughout the day, so I am responsive if people actually start posting.  Note that it will take MULTIPLE people to vote an extension through, with or without my help and it is only an IF that zombie MAY decide to mod extend.  Thus I am both forced to play WIFOM with SILENCE from almost everyone, -and- I'm forced to prepare for a D end that may or may not be Mod extended -AGAIN-, despite rules talking about how if extensions are not used there will be no further extensions - and that this extension has essentially gone unused.  Furthermore - Darvi's been essentially silent for 2 weeks now, making the role he owns silent or essentially silent for 3 of the 4 weeks this game has been played over.  OMGU(all)S - everyone.  That's how I feel right now about this game overall.  By the rules we are even supposed to be currently ineligible for further extensions - because we haven't USED this current one!

I share many of the sentiments of this post. I am not extending because RPG, for example, has been requesting replacement for probably over a week and no one has stepped in. Now we need three or four replacements, with no sign of ending. Right now, I'm just voting on my "most likely Scum" pick. This game isn't going anywhere unless there's some really sudden replacements, so I just want to push for the end.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 2 Robot, You - TWO REPLACEMENTS NEEDED
Post by: Imp on October 25, 2013, 05:36:54 pm

Squill:
My reread of the posts including and around his vote (and revote) of you make me think that he voted you initially, and repeatedly, as pressure, not 'play better', which seems to have been what he intended with his previous votes.  He says two things to you in the post where he first votes you:

unconnected to the vote is a assessment of two portions of your logic supporting your vote on Kleril; an assessment which he does not do a very good job explaining simply (I believe I follow his explanation, but I do think it is more convoluted than many of the decidedly pointed things he said to other players before and even in that same post) why he thinks you're wrong about Town choices.

Followed by a more clear attack on the concept that 'lynch it to see what happens' is not Town play.  Funny.  I agree with that logic, but the exact circumstances of this game are putting me in a spot where I feel like I can sit and do nothing (not going to do that), request a replacement because I find the game unplayable (... tempting, but not going to do that), vote blindly based on largely unsupported votes - essentially 'lynch it to see what happens', or accept a nolynch in order to get more of the same the next D (I expect more of the same.  Prove me wrong, the lot of you.  I dare every one of you and nothing would make me feel better about the game than being proved wrong about the 'fact' that you're all going to predominantly lurk through D3, those of you who survive it!  Prove me wrong - DO IT!).

Connected to the vote is a summary: accusation of lurking (I agree with that; you're seriously lurky) and joining the bandwagon on Kleril.


He soon unvotes you, saying he was doing so to break a three way tie; this comes at the end of a pretty long post which is preceded by another player changing votes to break that three way tie (so Darvi's vote change actually immediately creates a new two way tie); Darvi responds to this by complaining about the other vote change and insta-changing his vote back to you.  (This leaves you with one vote, with the lynch lead having 3).

To me this is all filled with null tells.  It's interesting that he didn't seem to be voting Squill to correct bad play (his previous votes seemed connected to 'things players could fix', and when they did, he changed his vote.

He may have intended this with you too - if you'd explained logic he liked better, or changed your vote (which would have returned us to a 3 way tie, unless you switched to one of the other two-vote candidates... so probably not that).

And of course it's disgusting, not interesting, that he then disappears, but for one oops post; doesn't even request replacement even when making that oops post or after apparently getting 2 prods.

This is bad play, not scum play, to me.  He still reads as null, but that's my take on his 'I am voting Squill' stuff, in case you wanted it.

Pushing for the end?  Yeah.  Personally I'd prefer a cancellation of the game to blind voting to the end, but that's strategic too.  Blind voting is good for the Scum, bad for Town; I'd prefer a no win/doesn't count to a Town loss because of blind voting.  But right now I'd prefer a 'game end' through any means to a 'hanging on as is, game still in play, go play' if that's really my choices.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 2 Robot, You - TWO REPLACEMENTS NEEDED
Post by: Superblackcat on October 25, 2013, 05:41:55 pm

I'm sorry, I've been very busy...


I believe that Active Lurking is when someone pretends to contribute to the game, but actually does not. So the person is active, but doesn't say anything useful.

Like repeating redundant stuff, saying the same stuff as the person before you did. Bandwagoning in the middle or end (When confirmed).

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 2 Robot, You - TWO REPLACEMENTS NEEDED
Post by: Imp on October 25, 2013, 06:55:19 pm

Quote from: Superblackcat on October 25, 2013, 05:41:55 pm

I'm sorry, I've been very busy...


I believe that Active Lurking is when someone pretends to contribute to the game, but actually does not. So the person is active, but doesn't say anything useful.

Like repeating redundant stuff, saying the same stuff as the person before you did. Bandwagoning in the middle or end (When confirmed).

Woohoo!  You answered.

Alright then.  When you have time:

You've told us what Scumhunting is:

Quote from: Superblackcat on October 23, 2013, 11:35:31 pm

Scumhunting, in my opinion, is actively searching for scum. Then in between that and lurking, is pointing out scummy things, putting pressure(rarely) and kind of being there. Then there is lurking, where there is no activity.

And now you've finally answered what active lurking is:

Quote from: Superblackcat on October 25, 2013, 05:41:55 pm

I believe that Active Lurking is when someone pretends to contribute to the game, but actually does not. So the person is active, but doesn't say anything useful.

Like repeating redundant stuff, saying the same stuff as the person before you did. Bandwagoning in the middle or end (When confirmed).

I like your scumhunting definition better than your active lurker def, but at least you have one and it's not totally wrong.  So it's not that you're clueless, Superblackcat, it's not that you're running around pointlessly because you don't get the point.

I'm even going to thank you, honestly thank you for having decided to be an active lurker than a passive one.  I've had it with passive ones.  Really.  Had.  It.

But I have to ask you now, do you understand that you have been actively lurking, not scumhunting, in almost every post you've made this game?

When you have appeared to scumhunt, it has almost exclusively been in direct response to others who have voted for you, and aimed only at those specific others (noted that you did not respond to me in that fashion after I placed vast pressure upon you, though without a vote).

Explain your behavior.  Why are you consistently failing to scumhunt?  Why are you consistently actively lurking?  Are you going to change this in the future of this game, assuming you're one of the 'lucky' ones who lives to see D3?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 2 Robot, You - TWO REPLACEMENTS NEEDED
Post by: Tiruin on October 25, 2013, 07:32:21 pm

Arghh. Timezones + Busy.

Quote from: Imp on October 25, 2013, 03:49:55 am

So, Tiruin.

Need time to catch up on the thread?  I'll support anyone's requests for an extension at this point.

Already caught up on the thread?  What do you feel should be said by you at this point, you player and you {IC}?

I'll have less generalized questions for you after I read your answer(s) to that one.

I'd be catching up on it later on-however I really doubt that there'd be time left. I feel that what should be said-has mostly been said, but would be restated as is.

> In inactivity-this is a crucial point for town. Scum can jabber on in the scumchat, yet this is only based on recent events. In the time passing, the idleness would stagnate, and the only way this could be broken is (either by cop intervention, or people would get the train running and start going aggressive. Passivity isn't generally how town wins.)

..Yeah it seems I've to say a general point given that recently (..on a skim  :-[ ) I've noticed mostly dueling at the point--people poking each other on every note they think is scummy, wherein the notes to be poked on should be either related to a causative relevance to how the case is being made or they should be conclusive in order to drive a point that makes said person scum.

That being said, I see Imp as town-y.

Imp: Query. Why're you asking definition of terms on SBC? How does that help your eye on him?

I am..really lacking questions because I am really lacking the time to read up.

Quote from: Imp on October 25, 2013, 03:50:07 pm

My current strong scum reads, across the entire game, are Rolepgeek and Deathsword-now-Tiruin.  Presuming this silent apathy continues, neither is possible to lynch as the board currently stands.

I do not say that Tiruin's Scummy too - there's been no time for that player to show anything of their play in this game as a player.  But she holds a role that looked incredibly scummy to me before - if it was possible to lynch either Rolepgeek or Deathsword-now-Tiruin, one of those two would have my vote now to help ensure that lynch.

Precluding the lack of human response from replacement, hold your doubt or suspicion based on the previous person to hold said role. If past person is scummy, refer all now-questions you had on him to the now-her. :)

Quote from: Imp on October 25, 2013, 05:36:54 pm

Pushing for the end?  Yeah.  Personally I'd prefer a cancellation of the game to blind voting to the end, but that's strategic too.  Blind voting is good for the Scum, bad for Town; I'd prefer a no win/doesn't count to a Town loss because of blind voting.  But right now I'd prefer a 'game end' through any means to a 'hanging on as is, game still in play, go play' if that's really my choices.

On this note (cancellation?! D:) I'll be making a concise list of everything from person to person in the next day [given the lack of time here] as well as most other points on the matter--something that would be done regardless given the lack of activity for the past days. It both acts as a resolution to the lacking time, and an initiative to scum if Town gets aggressive-just not that aggressive as, to make note, scum can pin a townie under mistakes that are done in the past and all they've to do is. . .well, 'to ride the wave out'.

Double-take on those reads and check them thoroughly despite the conventional wisdom, in certain situations.


Note that I'm not using an IC voice this game. Just like in real games-players themselves can be the ones to point out your mistakes in helpful (or snarky) responses. Keep your suspicio-meter on, but not overclocking.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 2 Robot, You - TWO REPLACEMENTS NEEDED
Post by: Imp on October 25, 2013, 08:25:15 pm

Quote from: Tiruin on October 25, 2013, 07:32:21 pm

Imp: Query. Why're you asking definition of terms on SBC? How does that help your eye on him?

That's answered in detail in the post immediately preceding yours.

To answer in summary, and to give further context if needed:

I pressed Superblackcat in multiple ways D1.  I believe he's not a strong player and has much to learn.  Exactly how weak a player he was and how ignorant, and how much of his poor play is intentional choice and how much is 'genuine trying his best';  This is what I want to know and what drove my pair of questions to him.

I wanted to establish that he A) knows what Scumhunting is; B) knows what active lurking is AND that it is distinct from Scumhunting; (I now have functional proof of both).  Thus my newest post to him.  If I'm alive and he's alive come D3 perhaps there will be more answers; perhaps I'll feel a lot better about being in a lynch right or lose sort of situation with him as one of the lynch choices I have to make.

Quote from: Tiruin on October 25, 2013, 07:32:21 pm

I'd be catching up on it later on...I am really lacking the time to read up.

Yet - you don't ask for extension.  Either.  No one is asking for an extension.  Sure, with no time left to answer my question - why not, Tiruin?

You may not even be alive come D3, to be able to make that promised 'later' post.  Or maybe you're tacitly admitting that yeah, you're scum, you're quite appropriately playing towards your wincon, for which going to night hours after your first post as a player; without having caught up or read up on the thread, without any use of your vote doesn't do anything to impede your wincon at all.  Hot damn.

So here we go; less than 3 hours to end of D (or not, gosh, what is Mod going to do this time?  Why why why do I even have to worry about factoring in what the mod's going to do too?  Sheesh, this keeps up I'm voting zombie *bangs head against wall*).  We have multiple inactives; we have.... I'm not going to list more complaints.

Scum, should you not be totally idle and ignoring this thread; we're going to N2 (maybe).  You've got a night kill.  Be merciful.  I think I'm suffering more than anyone here.  Do me a favor, mmm?  End my pain.  Removing me as a living player: if the game does not get cancelled, that is the fastest way out of this game for me.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 2 Robot, You - TWO REPLACEMENTS NEEDED
Post by: Tiruin on October 25, 2013, 09:05:15 pm

Quote from: Imp on October 25, 2013, 08:25:15 pm

So here we go; less than 3 hours to end of D (or not, gosh, what is Mod going to do this time?  Why why why do I even have to worry about factoring in what the mod's going to do too?  Sheesh, this keeps up I'm voting zombie *bangs head against wall*).  We have multiple inactives; we have.... I'm not going to list more complaints.

Well extending the game.. >_<

Quote from: Imp on October 25, 2013, 08:25:15 pm

Yet - you don't ask for extension.  Either.  No one is asking for an extension.  Sure, with no time left to answer my question - why not, Tiruin?

I..think I did. A concise read would be the most optimal at this time, but I thought of the point in regard to time left-it would be little enough to state it at the moment. Sure, it could act as a note later on in-game, if in question I get killed tonight, however it would prove little if at all regardless if I live or not as my method usually involves questioning and then continuing along the questions.

Quote from: Imp on October 25, 2013, 08:25:15 pm

You may not even be alive come D3, to be able to make that promised 'later' post.  Or maybe you're tacitly admitting that yeah, you're scum, you're quite appropriately playing towards your wincon, for which going to night hours after your first post as a player; without having caught up or read up on the thread, without any use of your vote doesn't do anything to impede your wincon at all.  Hot damn.

...Ok this insults me as a player. This is not what I would do as any alignment, ever. Because it's, to be saying bluntly, damn cheap. Players have principles and I stick to said principles regardless of what alignment I have, thank you very much.

Quote from: Imp on October 25, 2013, 08:25:15 pm

Scum, should you not be totally idle and ignoring this thread; we're going to N2 (maybe).  You've got a night kill.  Be merciful.  I think I'm suffering more than anyone here.  Do me a favor, mmm?  End my pain.  Removing me as a living player: if the game does not get cancelled, that is the fastest way out of this game for me.

Ok, if town = don't do this. If you live to D3 (in the situation wherein you are town), it just invites a whole lot of WIFOM--WIFOM which the enemy can use to stand upon you. If you don't..well, in certain games (all non-BM games), this is doubly as a huge bad idea as it gives off..on this statement alone..that you're acting the martyr.

...

What's wrong? :S

Darvi.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 2 Robot, You - TWO REPLACEMENTS NEEDED
Post by: Squill on October 25, 2013, 09:15:56 pm

Quote from: Imp on October 25, 2013, 05:36:54 pm

Pushing for the end?  Yeah.  Personally I'd prefer a cancellation of the game to blind voting to the end, but that's strategic too.  Blind voting is good for the Scum, bad for Town; I'd prefer a no win/doesn't count to a Town loss because of blind voting.  But right now I'd prefer a 'game end' through any means to a 'hanging on as is, game still in play, go play' if that's really my choices.

What happens if the game is cancelled? Is it just "GAME OVER," or are all the roles and chats and whatnots revealed?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 2 Robot, You - TWO REPLACEMENTS NEEDED
Post by: Imp on October 25, 2013, 09:19:48 pm

Quote from: Tiruin on October 25, 2013, 09:05:15 pm

Well extending the game.. >_<

Quote from: Imp on October 25, 2013, 08:25:15 pm

Yet - you don't ask for extension.  Either.  No one is asking for an extension.  Sure, with no time left to answer my question - why not, Tiruin?

I..think I did.

My "Why not, Tiruin" was "Why not ask for an extension, Tiruin", reading your posting of not having enough time.  Are you saying that you think you did ask for an extension?

I don't see it.  Not a bolded request; not an unbolded request either.  None the less, I have offered to support an extension request.  If you meant to request one now but didn't; you're supported; good luck getting the third extend needed at this point.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 2 Robot, You - TWO REPLACEMENTS NEEDED
Post by: Tiruin on October 25, 2013, 09:26:00 pm

Quote from: Imp on October 25, 2013, 09:19:48 pm

Quote from: Tiruin on October 25, 2013, 09:05:15 pm

Well extending the game.. >_<

Quote from: Imp on October 25, 2013, 08:25:15 pm

Yet - you don't ask for extension.  Either.  No one is asking for an extension.  Sure, with no time left to answer my question - why not, Tiruin?

I..think I did.

My "Why not, Tiruin" was "Why not ask for an extension, Tiruin", reading your posting of not having enough time.  Are you saying that you think you did ask for an extension?

I don't see it.  Not a bolded request; not an unbolded request either.  None the less, I have offered to support an extension request.  If you meant to request one now but didn't; you're supported; good luck getting the third extend needed at this point.

Yeah. I di-
...Well, I did think of it, but then seeing that there was no extension at that time (which I missed now that I see it) I would extend.

...I had thought that nobody was into extending it -I looked at ZU's votecount at the time.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 2 Robot, You - TWO REPLACEMENTS NEEDED
Post by: Imp on October 25, 2013, 10:03:04 pm

Quote from: Squill on October 25, 2013, 09:15:56 pm

What happens if the game is cancelled? Is it just "GAME OVER," or are all the roles and chats and whatnots revealed?

Quote from: zombie urist on October 24, 2013, 11:24:46 pm

Quote from: Imp on October 24, 2013, 09:30:19 pm

zombie urist, what's your decision about our game?  No matter what, someday its scumchat and deadchat are going open for all to view, right?  I'm really interested in their contents, even if this BM game goes the way of the few others which were simply stopped in the middle, their number reused a bit later with a new start.

All QT's will be available after the game.

QT's are quick topic private chats, that's 'where' scum chat and dead chat happens.

I don't have time to properly search atm (at work) but one previously canceled BM was 10; the mod accidentally gave a town cop player who inspected a Scum the identities of both Scum players.  In the case of that game it looks like 'it ended' was used.  A glance shows no QT links or role flips - though, the roles of both scum, confirmed by the mod, was discussed by all including the mod in the thread.

Squill or anyone still around, we've currently got 2 votes to extend.  Give us our third!  I've got to hear Tiruin's answer to this question, at very least -

Tiruin!  Sorry to be rude, maybe I'm not thinking straight.  I'm still concerned, but if this extend goes through, we've got time to talk about that later.

However!  Now you use your vote.  You 'cement' the lynch on Darvi-who-was-Griffinpup.

You offer no reasons and recently said you'd not caught up.  I suspect you read my posts a bit more than others', you've given me that feeling throughout.  I say in my post where I vote Darvi why I vote for him instead of Superblackcat, or leave the game with tied votes and hours to go.  But in that post I don't say that I think he's Scum; I say pretty clearly that I can't read him and why.

Why, why why, have you voted at this point for Darvi?  With all respect, and with no insult intended - if this is not Scum jumping on a bandwagon, giving absolutely no reason for it (and with, to my eyes, really murky reasons for voting for him PERIOD) with hours left on the clock in a heavily idle game, a stated not-caught up yet with reading situation....

If you are not Scum, then why the heck are you doing this?

Unvote.

I really, really want an extension now.  I'd still accept the game being canceled instead, but Tiruin's talking, and I'd like these answers before night takes us all.  Now I'm even more worried that a vote for Darvi is a vote for town.  I suspected Deathsword-now-Tiruin strongly, and I'm really curious about the reasonings going on in Tiruin's mind!

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 2 Robot, You - TWO REPLACEMENTS NEEDED
Post by: zombie urist on October 25, 2013, 10:05:35 pm

  Imp
  Squill
  Rolepgeek -
  Superblackcat - Rolepgeek
  Mr.Zero
  Tiruin
  Darvi - Superblackcat, Tiruin

  Not Voting: Darvi, Squill, Imp

Rolepgeek and Mr.Zero have asked for a replacement!

Extend - 2/3
Shorten - 0/4

Day ends in 1 hour

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 2 Robot, You - TWO REPLACEMENTS NEEDED
Post by: Tiruin on October 25, 2013, 10:51:13 pm

Alarm bell tick.

Quote from: Imp on October 25, 2013, 10:03:04 pm

Quote from: Squill on October 25, 2013, 09:15:56 pm

What happens if the game is cancelled? Is it just "GAME OVER," or are all the roles and chats and whatnots revealed?

Quote from: zombie urist on October 24, 2013, 11:24:46 pm

Quote from: Imp on October 24, 2013, 09:30:19 pm

zombie urist, what's your decision about our game?  No matter what, someday its scumchat and deadchat are going open for all to view, right?  I'm really interested in their contents, even if this BM game goes the way of the few others which were simply stopped in the middle, their number reused a bit later with a new start.

All QT's will be available after the game.

QT's are quick topic private chats, that's 'where' scum chat and dead chat happens.

I don't have time to properly search atm (at work) but one previously canceled BM was 10; the mod accidentally gave a town cop player who inspected a Scum the identities of both Scum players.  In the case of that game it looks like 'it ended' was used.  A glance shows no QT links or role flips - though, the roles of both scum, confirmed by the mod, was discussed by all including the mod in the thread.

Squill or anyone still around, we've currently got 2 votes to extend.  Give us our third!  I've got to hear Tiruin's answer to this question, at very least -

Tiruin!  Sorry to be rude, maybe I'm not thinking straight.  I'm still concerned, but if this extend goes through, we've got time to talk about that later.

However!  Now you use your vote.  You 'cement' the lynch on Darvi-who-was-Griffinpup.

You offer no reasons and recently said you'd not caught up.  I suspect you read my posts a bit more than others', you've given me that feeling throughout.  I say in my post where I vote Darvi why I vote for him instead of Superblackcat, or leave the game with tied votes and hours to go.  But in that post I don't say that I think he's Scum; I say pretty clearly that I can't read him and why.

Why, why why, have you voted at this point for Darvi?  With all respect, and with no insult intended - if this is not Scum jumping on a bandwagon, giving absolutely no reason for it (and with, to my eyes, really murky reasons for voting for him PERIOD) with hours left on the clock in a heavily idle game, a stated not-caught up yet with reading situation....

If you are not Scum, then why the heck are you doing this?

Unvote.

I really, really want an extension now.  I'd still accept the game being canceled instead, but Tiruin's talking, and I'd like these answers before night takes us all.  Now I'm even more worried that a vote for Darvi is a vote for town.  I suspected Deathsword-now-Tiruin strongly, and I'm really curious about the reasonings going on in Tiruin's mind.

...So why did you vote Darvi in the first place?

At first glance-yea, it may seem like a bandwagon, and yea, it may also seem like its an easy-lynch move. I compared between the people going up for a lynch--SBC, IMO, isn't playing like naughty scummy scum is doing. He's being the newbie card role-distinct in my eye due to his wording. Comparing his early posts (in which I have lacking time to link and can only thank my typing speed for all this), he doesn't have that scummy vibe coming off him.

As for Darvi...I'm pretty unsure. While him and his predecessor, sans being an IC, have come off generally squeaky-I can not tell if the squeaky squeaks scum or town- the tells beyond him are generally vague, and despite his inconsistency (...I'm unsure but Darvi has a record, IMO, of net troubles[?]), I've found his posts mostly reasonable.

Compared to SBC--I'd like to give the little kitty a chance at this, despite recent behavior, and I would really much like Rolepgeek who is voting while in replacement to expound on his reason on SBC, as well as links to it.

To say bluntly, I'd rather have a lynch go off instead of a non-lynch. Reason being, a no-lynch at this kind of scenario (vague future) does not benefit the town at all. It gives a free night--sure, if we have an inspector (which should not be relied on-both in the BM setup or in any game setup), this would probably benefit--but in general cases, a lynch aids in focusing the angle of view. Lesser suspects.

Quote

Will the old dead people also have access to the new deadchat?  Should I end up dead before the end of the game, there's a few things I'd like to attempt to discuss with one or both of the old dead.

{From recent note in the deadchat, you'll love talking there (in the situation that you die-the chat is...more vibrant, really. Also yes, old dead people > new deadchat :D Yes this is my IC voice despite me saying it won't be used.}

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 2 Robot, You - TWO REPLACEMENTS NEEDED
Post by: zombie urist on October 25, 2013, 11:13:38 pm

A second day of debate passed. Names and accusations flew across the airspace. Eventually, the robots agreed. Darvi must have been one of those infected! ZOM-B pushes him towards the garbage compactor.

Once again, with a soft hiss the compactor opens and welcomes his latest guest. Darvi is stoic and he strolls in. The compactor emits another short hiss and the door closes.

The same ominous crunch is heard as Darvi's steel frame body is forced into a cube. ZOM-B retrieves his board.

Clean. No infections.

The rest of the robots quietly retreat back into the comforts of their charging docks.

Darvi has been lynched! He was a vanilla townie

================

Night 2 will end Tuesday October 29th 2013 at 9 PM

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Night 2 - TWO REPLACEMENTS NEEDED
Post by: zombie urist on October 29, 2013, 11:09:03 pm

The robots awoke to a sad sight. Superblackcat's body was torn apart. A mass of wires protruded from his shell. This must be the work of evil mal-bots!

ZOM-B scans his remains. Turns out he was a janitor robot. The robots are more sad because now they have to clean up after themselves and robots aren't very good at that.

Everyone strengthens their resolve. They are determined to eliminate the threat.

---

superblackcat has been lynched! He was a town jailkeeper

---

bsnott has replaced Mr.Zero

---

Day 3 will end Friday November 1st at 9PM PST

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 3 - ONE REPLACEMENT NEEDED
Post by: Rolepgeek on October 30, 2013, 09:19:55 pm

Sad that noone is active at all, at least not yet. I'll ask for an extend, as I need more time to think things through and get my bearings in general, though preliminarily, I think it's extremely suspicious that Imp is still alive. And that neither of the night-kills have been of people he was claiming were scum, for that matter. Seems like he didn't want to prove himself wrong, so he could try to mislynch us.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 3 - ONE REPLACEMENT NEEDED
Post by: zombie urist on October 30, 2013, 11:43:30 pm

Yeah no posts make me sad.  :'(

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 3 - ONE REPLACEMENT NEEDED
Post by: Imp on October 31, 2013, 01:02:34 am

zombie.  I'm here.  All of my reasoning for why I want this game canceled, bad as it must seem to you, stands.  I'm not going to stop wanting this game stopped.  Inactivity and rule enforcement such as we've had, Town players are very close to shooting in the dark. 

Additionally, assuming you've posted of it when you've sent out prods, you've barely prodded at all.  Yet when I asked if a player needed to ask for prods to happen, you said only if you didn't notice.  Like I/we are supposed to read your mind or something?  And then when I next asked for a prod, after waiting through 4 weekdays of a olayer's inactivity, you said you'd give it another day.

One of our roles, though it's now dead, was idle for a week, active for a week, then idle for another full two weeks.  Prods didn't go out, rules about prods didn't get enforced, the rules about day and night lengths are just being ignored, even Tiruin who was said to be ineligible to replace is now playing.  You're our Mod.  I don't know who else to turn to.  If the right answer is ignore all these disregarded rules and play anyway, all I can say is I don't feel like my hands are being tied - I feel like they're being cut off in this game.  Rules are important to me, they're the structure of the game.  Though I'm not going to do so, I wasn't exactly joking when I said earlier that I was sorely tempted to make two posts for the express purpose of editing them to see if you'd enforce that rule at least.

No posts make you sad?  This -game- makes me sad.  The lack of rules upheld makes me sad.  I've learned a lot this game.  I'm glad for the knowledge.  I still love Mafia, but I feel this game is compromised.  I have no desire to finish it.  I feel like no one deserves to win this game.  I don't understand how to play under the circumstances this game has experienced.

Rolepgeek, Squill, Tiruin, bsnott.  If most or ideally all of you want to get in here and start talking, I'm listening.  Otherwise I've really got nothing left to give this broken remnant of a game.  I'm not going to chase active lurkers, look for inactive lurkers, or do anything else that seems to be a waste of time.  I feel the conditions within this game are and have been completely biased against any chance of a Town win and this has been allowed to continue throughout the game.

If pretty much all of you start actively playing, I will too.  Otherwise, I've already given this game all I had.  I've got words to speak to some of the dead; I'll say them when I die or when the game is over.  I'm very interested in seeing the roleflips and the contents of the private chats.  Otherwise this game itself is dead to me, I feel betrayed by it, and I'm done here.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 3 - ONE REPLACEMENT NEEDED
Post by: Squill on October 31, 2013, 05:12:51 am

Crap, didn't notice this had started again; I was kinda busy yesterday. I'll get back to this after school.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 3 - ONE REPLACEMENT NEEDED
Post by: zombie urist on October 31, 2013, 10:24:30 am

I suppose I'll go over the concerns in that WoT after game end.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 3 - ONE REPLACEMENT NEEDED
Post by: Rolepgeek on October 31, 2013, 09:12:57 pm

Personally, I don't see how the rules have been broken. Not in a way that matters, at least. The game shouldn't end just because we're at a disadvantage. The game shouldn't end just because people aren't active. The mod not seeing prod requests isn't breaking a rule. The mod wanting to give a bit longer for prods to go out isn't breaking a rule. Day and night length rules certainly aren't being broken; there are mod-extends, and even if we didn't use the extensions, that doesn't mean rules were broken. It's not a hard set of rules. Rule-breaking typically means a Bastard game, and Beginner games will never be Bastards'. Don't rage-quit, just see it through to the end, Imp.

Yes, I'm voting you for now. It may change to Squill or Tiruin. Or bsnott, but he hasn't even done anything so I don't even. Reasons have been given this whole game, and even if you're deciding you've had enough(which could easily be a front, after all), you still aren't dead. Yet you're by far the most active player.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 3 - ONE REPLACEMENT NEEDED
Post by: Imp on October 31, 2013, 10:21:25 pm

Quote from: Squill on October 31, 2013, 05:12:51 am

Crap, didn't notice this had started again; I was kinda busy yesterday. I'll get back to this after school.

Man you have long school days.  My sympathy.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 3 - ONE REPLACEMENT NEEDED
Post by: zombie urist on October 31, 2013, 11:09:28 pm

~24 hours to day end

Imp - Rolepgeek
squill -
bsnott -
Rolepgeek -
Tiruin -

1 to extend, 2 needed
0 to shorten, 3 needed

bsnott and Tiruin have been prodded

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 3 - ONE REPLACEMENT NEEDED
Post by: Imp on October 31, 2013, 11:26:23 pm

zombie, how many would be needed to shorten?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 3 - ONE REPLACEMENT NEEDED
Post by: Tiruin on November 01, 2013, 12:05:11 am

Oooh great, bad time for emotional breakdown + issues RL. PFP, apologies for being a shoddy IC and being away for ~2 days.

I'll get in a post soon. However:

This is the end stretch, everyone. LYLO - Lynch or Lose. If we don't lynch scum, we lose. If we do lynch scum-the day continues on.

Quote from: Rolepgeek on October 31, 2013, 09:12:57 pm

Personally, I don't see how the rules have been broken. Not in a way that matters, at least. The game shouldn't end just because we're at a disadvantage. The game shouldn't end just because people aren't active. The mod not seeing prod requests isn't breaking a rule. The mod wanting to give a bit longer for prods to go out isn't breaking a rule. Day and night length rules certainly aren't being broken; there are mod-extends, and even if we didn't use the extensions, that doesn't mean rules were broken. It's not a hard set of rules. Rule-breaking typically means a Bastard game, and Beginner games will never be Bastards'. Don't rage-quit, just see it through to the end, Imp.

Yes, I'm voting you for now. It may change to Squill or Tiruin. Or bsnott, but he hasn't even done anything so I don't even. Reasons have been given this whole game, and even if you're deciding you've had enough(which could easily be a front, after all), you still aren't dead. Yet you're by far the most active player.

Yeah you're voting for her now. Why? Restate and summarize. What is the use of the bolded statement there to back up your vote on Imp?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 3 - ONE REPLACEMENT NEEDED
Post by: Imp on November 01, 2013, 12:53:10 am

Quote from: Tiruin on November 01, 2013, 12:05:11 am

Oooh great, bad time for emotional breakdown + issues RL. PFP, apologies for being a shoddy IC and being away for ~2 days.

So far, you're the most active and arguably the best IC this game's seen.

Even with your absence, you're competing with Griffinpup who left the forums so never spoke in game, Darvi who played for a week, came back after a calendar week's absence to say 'whoops' (but not 'replace me'), then left us again the third week without even a whoops until a waste of a lynch ended that fantastic example of how to play; and Deathsword who regularly missed 2-3 days at a stretch and whose top absence spanned a full calendar week as well.  Compared to their activity levels, you're here full time.

I'm sorry you've been hurting and I'm glad you're back.  I hope you are okay.

Quote from: Tiruin on October 25, 2013, 10:51:13 pm

...So why did you vote Darvi in the first place?

I explained that here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4715858#msg4715858).  If you desire other details, ask.

I believe that brings my answers to your questions up to date.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 3 - ONE REPLACEMENT NEEDED
Post by: Squill on November 01, 2013, 05:17:00 am

Motherfuck. Forgot about the whole "Halloween" thing being yesterday when I posted.

@Imp: I think it's possible that you are pretending to be upset to appeal to townies. After all, what better way to look like town than, when the game goes poorly, to be the loudest one decrying your fate?
@bsnott: Are you here? Why bother replacing if you aren't gonna play?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 3 - ONE REPLACEMENT NEEDED
Post by: Imp on November 01, 2013, 07:03:52 am

Quote from: Squill on November 01, 2013, 05:17:00 am

Motherfuck. Forgot about the whole "Halloween" thing being yesterday when I posted.

@Imp: I think it's possible that you are pretending to be upset to appeal to townies. After all, what better way to look like town than, when the game goes poorly, to be the loudest one decrying your fate?
@bsnott: Are you here? Why bother replacing if you aren't gonna play?

Squill, your question confuses me.  What fate do you see me decrying?

I have spoken of being depressed by inactivity.  Without more activity in this thread, I'm not going to have much more to give this game - I'm understanding better how players work as a team, and how truly little any one player can do alone.

I am outraged by the lack of rules enforcement and following.  That's not a player issue, as in it's not any player's fault (the absence from play is but the enforcement of that is not a player's fault) and its nothing any player can fix.  I've stated my views clearly on that issue, the Mod has made his decision, and I've also stated that if most of the other players in this game are going to be active then I'm going to play too.

Do you believe I'm trying to look Town by being the loudest one decrying my fate?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 3 - ONE REPLACEMENT NEEDED
Post by: Imp on November 01, 2013, 06:32:14 pm

Quote from: zombie urist on October 31, 2013, 11:09:28 pm

~24 hours to day end

Imp - Rolepgeek
squill -
bsnott -
Rolepgeek -
Tiruin -

1 to extend, 2 needed
0 to shorten, 3 needed

bsnott and Tiruin have been prodded

The ~24 hours to day end post was made about 19.5 hours ago.  Approximately 4.5 hours remain.

Rolepgeek has placed the only vote so far, he has placed the only extension request so far.  In the odd chance that any of you super quiet and voteless people want to extend further, I add mine to that pile.

I'm vote lead, everyone else tied for second place.

Rolepgeek   is my top scum pick for reasons already explained before I removed my vote from him end of D2 to break a tie.

Deathsword now Tiruin is my second scummiest choice, for reasons also explained near end of D2.  If this game was actually being played I'd be discussing a few things with Tiruin, specifically why she voted as she did near the end of D2.  She too had suspicions of Rolepgeek.  If I'd been less upset about the apathy of the town and the state of the rules, and if she'd been more available to talk, we might have agreed upon a Rolepgeek lynch - no other players appeared active.  She's still my second highest Scum choice, almost entirely because of Deathsword's play (she inherited his role, be it Town or Scum) and her own posts made once she got active in the thread.  I will say that her final D2 post was coherent and reasonable - she even asks me why -I- voted for Darvi - after listing essentially all the reasons I had already posted.

By the time she made that post, I was already far from a computer, and unable to return until a good bit after Day close.

Squill, you're third scummiest to me; well played if you're actually Scum.

Mr.Zero, now bsnott, is my top Town choice, bsnott 100% inheriting what I thought of Mr.Zero's play.  Also well played, Mr.Zero, if you're actually Scum.

I know that if I'm lynched Town loses, but only I and Scum know that.  I also know, as all do, that if there's a tie, a no lynch, Town loses.  My ability to make meaningful 'pro-Town choices' is about nil without at least one of the voteless players getting in here and making a choice.  I'll try to be available if anyone wants to get in here and discuss something.  My vote's somewhat flexible, I don't have a super-strong feel for any of you, mainly because of participation issues.

One more extend vote buys more time, should any of you think you'd use it.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 3 - ONE REPLACEMENT NEEDED
Post by: bsnott on November 01, 2013, 09:23:30 pm

Quote from: Squill on November 01, 2013, 05:17:00 am

Motherfuck. Forgot about the whole "Halloween" thing being yesterday when I posted.

@Imp: I think it's possible that you are pretending to be upset to appeal to townies. After all, what better way to look like town than, when the game goes poorly, to be the loudest one decrying your fate?
@bsnott: Are you here? Why bother replacing if you aren't gonna play?

Hello, this is the first chance I've gotten to come back on the forums in quite a while now. I've been busy with some stuff (mostly GTA V, got it a few days ago) This is my first game, so I was looking for a beginner's mafia and he needed a replacement. If you have any other questions, feel free.

@SquillWhat games have you been playing lately?

@Imp What's your story so far?

@Tiruin Sorry I haven't been active until this point. How has your day been, and do you have any idea who may or may not be scum?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 3 - ONE REPLACEMENT NEEDED
Post by: Imp on November 01, 2013, 09:32:20 pm

Hi bsnott.  Making the story short - we are at a point where the game ends in 90 minutes unless we lynch scum.

We are also one extension vote from having more time to talk, another ~ 2 days.

Your call guy, I've already voted for an extension (as has Rolepgeek).

You've also placed a vote upon me.  If the game doesn't extend, and if you are wrong about me being Scum, then  Town loses.

This is perfect play if you're Scum, thanks for making it a quick and clean end.

If you choose to extend this game and talk, I'm ready to accept that as complete proof that you're Town.

If you're Scum you don't need to - make it quick and clean. You hold the win in your hands right now, and you have no need to change anything.  That is why I accept you as Town, period, if you choose not to make it quick and clean - you don't have to 'play'.  I do NOT expect you to assume anything about me, and I will discuss freely your question about my story and anything else you'd like to ask.

If you intend to talk, if you want time for your questions to be answered - type extend in bold before the day ends - you have ~90 minutes.  I seriously doubt we shall see Tiruin or Squill in time to vote or extend, so really, it's your call.

Thanks for playing.  Game kinda needs you, no matter your role.  Thank you, no matter your role.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 3 - ONE REPLACEMENT NEEDED
Post by: bsnott on November 01, 2013, 09:37:45 pm

Extend.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 3 - ONE REPLACEMENT NEEDED
Post by: Imp on November 01, 2013, 09:41:15 pm

Thank you.  I'm at work right now, and my shift ends in about 30 minutes.  I have a commitment after it, that lasts about 1-2 hours.  Then I have all night.  You probably don't - so how about we spend the next few minutes chatting?  You ask, I answer.  When you ask for my 'story', is there specific stuff you'd like to hear first?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 3 - ONE REPLACEMENT NEEDED
Post by: Squill on November 01, 2013, 09:44:46 pm

Quote from: Imp on November 01, 2013, 07:03:52 am

Quote from: Squill on November 01, 2013, 05:17:00 am

Motherfuck. Forgot about the whole "Halloween" thing being yesterday when I posted.

@Imp: I think it's possible that you are pretending to be upset to appeal to townies. After all, what better way to look like town than, when the game goes poorly, to be the loudest one decrying your fate?
@bsnott: Are you here? Why bother replacing if you aren't gonna play?

Squill, your question confuses me.  What fate do you see me decrying?

@Imp: I'm saying that if you were a scum, it makes a lot of sense for you to be the one saying that all is lost for town.

Quote from: bsnott on November 01, 2013, 09:23:30 pm

@SquillWhat games have you been playing lately?

@bsnott:Finally managed to get Metro: Last Light for a good price.
But isn't it a bit late for random questions? Your predecessor was thought to be both probably town and probably scum by a lot of people. Why do you think there are such wildly different views on him?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 3 - ONE REPLACEMENT NEEDED
Post by: bsnott on November 01, 2013, 09:45:08 pm

Quote from: Imp on November 01, 2013, 09:41:15 pm

Thank you.  I'm at work right now, and my shift ends in about 30 minutes.  I have a commitment after it, that lasts about 1-2 hours.  Then I have all night.  You probably don't - so how about we spend the next few minutes chatting?  You ask, I answer.  When you ask for my 'story', is there specific stuff you'd like to hear first?

I want you to tell me the story of this game, so far, from your view. Answer me, and I'll answer any questions from you.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 3 - ONE REPLACEMENT NEEDED
Post by: bsnott on November 01, 2013, 09:46:46 pm

Quote from: Squill on November 01, 2013, 09:44:46 pm

Quote from: Imp on November 01, 2013, 07:03:52 am

Quote from: Squill on November 01, 2013, 05:17:00 am

Motherfuck. Forgot about the whole "Halloween" thing being yesterday when I posted.

@Imp: I think it's possible that you are pretending to be upset to appeal to townies. After all, what better way to look like town than, when the game goes poorly, to be the loudest one decrying your fate?
@bsnott: Are you here? Why bother replacing if you aren't gonna play?

Squill, your question confuses me.  What fate do you see me decrying?

@Imp: I'm saying that if you were a scum, it makes a lot of sense for you to be the one saying that all is lost for town.

Quote from: bsnott on November 01, 2013, 09:23:30 pm

@SquillWhat games have you been playing lately?

@bsnott:Finally managed to get Metro: Last Light for a good price.
But isn't it a bit late for random questions? Your predecessor was thought to be both probably town and probably scum by a lot of people. Why do you think there are such wildly different views on him?

This is my first game that I've actually played in, and the only game that I've watched through I saw that they asked random questions. Who, in your opinion, is scum? Why do you think so?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 3 - ONE REPLACEMENT NEEDED
Post by: zombie urist on November 01, 2013, 09:50:54 pm

Never edit your posts!  >:(

Day extended to Tuesday November 5th 9PM PST

Imp - Rolepgeek, bsnott
squill -
bsnott -
Rolepgeek - Imp
Tiruin -

Not voting - squill, Tiruin

0 to extend, 2 needed
0 to shorten, 3 needed

Be active. ;)

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 3 - ONE REPLACEMENT NEEDED
Post by: bsnott on November 01, 2013, 09:52:12 pm

Sorry, just inserted the quote. :o

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 3 - ONE REPLACEMENT NEEDED
Post by: Imp on November 01, 2013, 09:56:22 pm

Here's the very short quick answer to that, and the -why- is especially incomplete.  http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4733848#msg4733848

My boss just said we're done, so I have even less time to answer than I expected.  You will be answered tonight, so feel free to ask additional questions for me to also answer.

I will ask you questions, but not many.  If you're scum, you have to be playing with me.  You actually have a good reason - first game, need to learn how to play.  I don't care; for my sanity and the fact your appearance at the end of the game, with a second vote on me (guaranteeing that we'd need both Squill and Tiruin to agree to vote with me on one of the Scum (you and geek I assume in that case) - well, we have 0 chance of that.  You had the win, if you're Scum, and you didn't take it.  Therefore, you are not Scum.

The main reason to ask questions is to catch Scum - to figure out who is Scum and who is Town.  Since I am convinced you are Town (and for my sanity, I have to stay convinced... it's not fun to be toyed with and you had the win if so)... I have very little to ask you except 'what would you like to know' and 'what is your opinion'... possibly 'does this make sense' or 'do you agree'.

Once I get my errand done, I'm back here and typing.  I'll try hard not to 'wall of text' you too much with my answers - it's hard for me to be 'short and sweet'.  I'll try to be, while answering you fully.  I'll probably wall of text anyway, that's my style and really my only one.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 3 - ONE REPLACEMENT NEEDED
Post by: bsnott on November 01, 2013, 10:03:52 pm

Quote from: Imp on November 01, 2013, 09:56:22 pm

Here's the very short quick answer to that, and the -why- is especially incomplete.  http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4733848#msg4733848

My boss just said we're done, so I have even less time to answer than I expected.  You will be answered tonight, so feel free to ask additional questions for me to also answer.

I will ask you questions, but not many.  If you're scum, you have to be playing with me.  You actually have a good reason - first game, need to learn how to play.  I don't care; for my sanity and the fact your appearance at the end of the game, with a second vote on me (guaranteeing that we'd need both Squill and Tiruin to agree to vote with me on one of the Scum (you and geek I assume in that case) - well, we have 0 chance of that.  You had the win, if you're Scum, and you didn't take it.  Therefore, you are not Scum.

The main reason to ask questions is to catch Scum - to figure out who is Scum and who is Town.  Since I am convinced you are Town (and for my sanity, I have to stay convinced... it's not fun to be toyed with and you had the win if so)... I have very little to ask you except 'what would you like to know' and 'what is your opinion'... possibly 'does this make sense' or 'do you agree'.

Once I get my errand done, I'm back here and typing.  I'll try hard not to 'wall of text' you too much with my answers - it's hard for me to be 'short and sweet'.  I'll try to be, while answering you fully.  I'll probably wall of text anyway, that's my style and really my only one.

Alright, you've convinced me. Unvote. Could you state your reasons for voting Rolepgeek please?

@Rolepgeek, explain this game from your eyes.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 3 - ONE REPLACEMENT NEEDED
Post by: Imp on November 02, 2013, 01:59:24 am

Basic history of the game, with a heavy focus on the interactions of myself and Rolepgeek.:

---

This link (http://www.ocf.berkeley.edu/~azhou/projects/LT/zt.py?topic=130600&start=0&msg=4635015&sort=user&numreplace=2&replaced0=griffinpup&replacer0=Darvi&replaced1=Lukeinator&replacer1=Persus13&player0=Tiruin&label0=np&numlabel=1) may be useful for you, it is the lurker tracker for the game.  You can use it to view each player's posts in a somewhat organized fashion.  It'll also tell you when each player last posted and who they posted for.

One thing it's great for is counting who posted however many posts, or scrolling backwards or forwards through a specific player's posts if you wish to do so.  Ignore it if it doesn't serve your purposes.

---

'My story', limited to D3 and the players still alive.  There's a longer version, encoded through the thread, voting patterns and such may matter but unless you ask for other details, I'll keep it to current and relevant - that means talking only about those alive, but I find as I type it that I must give brief mention to the involved dead.  I'm trying to keep it brief... I seriously fail at brief.  I think of things as entire wholes.

---

Rolepgeek initially appeared Townlike to me.  He asked questions of all players in the initial days of the game and followed up on several answers (this is generally considered Townlike behavior, though at the time I did not know this.  This is also my first Mafia game, not just here but anywhere - I have been accepted into two other non-beginner games, both of which started in the last 10 days... my play has drastically grown because I have learned a huge amount fast).

Meanwhile during these first few days of play, I (who also was interacting with everyone) had become alarmed at the very start of the game by Deathsword (replaced by Tiruin) having posted as an IC instructing players to use quotes when answering each other - but then failing to obey his own direction.  This seemed Scummy to me and I questioned Deathsword on it.

In this post (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4648034#msg4648034) Rolepgeek challenges me on my concerns, interpreting my post as having nothing to do with Scummy behavior but matters of behavior and ettiquette.  He says it is not scum-hunting, but taking things out of context.  He challenges my other questions as too specific to  have a point, that more vague questions would give info about playstyle and general demeanor, but I appear to be active lurking and not helping anyone.  All of these are near quotes lifted from his post I linked in this paragraph.  I am the first player he presses outside of true random voting and I answer him here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4648162#msg4648162).

At this point I'm chasing three players, The first super lurky Lukenator (now Persus13 - died Night 1 to the Scum, proven vanilla Town); the second, superblackcat, who was pushing from the start of play to begin with two days of no-lynches, but who was not Scumhunting himself and never actually did much of anything (superblackcat died Night 2 to the Scum, proven vanilla role blocker);  the third Kleril who doesn't press any questions or give reasons for his obviously reluctantly placed vote maked after being challenged by Mr.Zero (now you) and Deathsword (now Tiruin) - from his post voting (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4641459#msg4641459) me he shifts to saying  (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4647868#msg4647868)"Imp, I do not believe that you are scum. Really, you have me completely convinced that you are town, and that's what I'm wary about. Your words have a lot of sway, and it scares me." He is unable or unwilling to explain his vote, or his sudden switch to 'complete conviction' that I am Town, at least in a way that satisfies me or several others it must have been a misunderstanding, but at the time I believe he is Scum trying to cover tracks and mistakes - I also believe I catch him in a lie about the misunderstanding, challenge that too; he largely gives up trying to explain himself at that point) Kleril is the D1 lynch and he is proved to be vanilla Town.

Rolepgeek continues to challenge me over my challenge to Deathsword (which I had dropped totally before he challenged me about it the first time), including saying (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4650718#msg4650718) "Imp, you still keep taking stuff out of context. Stop it." followed by a defense of Deathsword.  I reply (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4651431#msg4651431) "I had stopped it, as of post #69.  You reopened it with post #102 and included it as one of two reasons why I earned your vote.  When I challenge someone's behavior, I want to see their response.  You say 'stop it' when I respond to you. Rephrasing to simplify my still unanswered question to you:  You wrote, directed at me, 'Yeah, you're asking questions, and yeah, they're related to the game, but they don't actually help anyone.'  Do you perceive all of my questions to be of the active-lurking sort?"

His answer is the last of his regular replies for an entire week (he does place two one liners during this week), and he answers (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4654044#msg4654044) "So I'm gonna answer in a short way first. The answer is no. Not all of them.  The long answer is yes. The overwhelming majority, and almost everything past the first post, is active-lurking. You aren't scum-hunting, you're commenting on other people's behaviour(but mostly their semantics and nuances of speech, etc., rather than actual scummy activity), asking for clarifications occasionally, made fun of Kleril for a bit... really, it's just frustrating, because I can tell you're intelligent. You're just not focusing on the right parts."

When he comes back after a week's absence, he launches an offensive and almost assaultive post (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4669054#msg4669054) primarily about how annoyed he is at me especially for a post (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4659525#msg4659525) I made six days earlier, but also addressing his lurkiness and how he hasn't been following the game and isn't prepared to answer almost anyone's questions to him.  His charming return to play includes comments like these:  "First, let's respond to questions. Then, I can pick apart Imp at my leisure. Mostly Imp because he's been annoying me"  I challenge (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4669460#msg4669460) his attacks upon me and state that I do not wish to interact with him further, that I hope someone else will handle the Scumhunting in regards to him, though I will if I must.

Rolepgeek follows with another (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4671462#msg4671462) delaying post the next day, claiming "Posting to show I'm not ignoring this. Put it off too long to be able to post it tonight, but I've got the post saved on my computer. Will finish it and post it tomorrow. It has all my answers and such, and more."  The next day he provides (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4674242#msg4674242) a long post where he unvotes, asks for replacement (it's October 9th - note he is still here and still asking for replacement even now), tries to answer the questions he promised and mainly does so by explaining how confused he is about who posted what, how he's unsure if he can remember what he was thinking when he said things, how he's lazy and unmotivated, and how he cannot support his previously given Town and FoS picks.  He does express his reaction to my challenge to him telling me "It was pretty impolite. So was mine, to a point, and I apologize for that, but yours was quite a bit worse."  He remains semi-inactive through the rest of D1 and returns to 'replace me, but I'll be active now' play D2.

During D2, he and Deathsword team to challenge me, essentially ignoring everyone else.  They both appear to be defending the other and they both essentially ignore all other players other than minor answers to the few questions directed at them.  I had started that D with discussion to everyone and a vote upon Rolepgeek.  D2 essentially starts here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4688211#msg4688211)  This period of the game ends here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4711292#msg4711292), near the end of D2, covering a week of playtime and about 60 posts, around half of them from us three and discussing everything Scummy about each other as well as how the two of them defend each other - note I do not discuss this defense.  I don't want them to stop, I want to see how deep it goes.  Shortly before this time ends, Rolepgeek places his vote (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4706034#msg4706034) on Superblackcat:

Quote from: Rolepgeek on October 21, 2013, 09:35:31 pm

AND NOW FOR THE IMPORTANT PART DUR DUR DURRR
Since it's a tie, I need to vote someone, to break it at the least. I'm not actually going to vote Imp, since I'm starting to think she has important things to make clear, and I want to give her a chance to cut stuff down so she isn't fucking with my eyes anymore. >.> So I'll vote Superblackcat, as they(genderwhutidunno) look to have been active-lurking for the last long while, without really contributing. Plus, you know, the whole ground that's already been trodden upon stuff with buddy-stabbing. :D

That 'Buddy-stabbing' issue, a concern discussed on D1 when I thought both Kleril and superblackcat were Scum and had tried to examine possible connections between them, had been solidly disproven early in the game, which may explain his emoticon use.

Immediately after that time period, Deathsword unvotes (had been voting me) and requests replacement.  Both of them return to inactivity for the rest of the D.  Deathsword never returns, he is replaced by Tiruin immediately before D2 ends.

Weird inactivity-related stuff helps cause Darvi, experienced player, inactive on our thread for two weeks but still active elsewhere in the forum, to be selected as the D2 lynch.  Darvi proves to be vanilla Town.

D3, Rolepgeek makes two (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4729383#msg4729383) posts (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4731858#msg4731858) returning to the attack upon me.  No scumhunting, in my opinion.  Just assault.  I have nothing further to say to him, and do not reply - the players I need to talk to are largely completely inactive.  Though all but you speaks at least once, none but rolepgeek place votes, there is almost no activity, this continues patterns from earlier play only worse, and it appears the game shall end.  I wait.  Then you enter the thread in the game's 11th hour.

The briefest summary of Rolepgeek's main Scumminess is listed below, though the list of minor supporting clues are so many they almost defies summary.  He's also been quite defensive of Deathsword, both in the start of play and extensively during D2, where they both defended each other in several of the posts each made during that time.  Deathsword defended no other player but himself.  Rolepgeek defended Lukinator (was replaced by Persus13), but -only- after Lukinator had left the game.  During the time Luke was actually in game (and if ever, needed protection?) Rolepgeek said nothing about his defense.  No idea what that means to Rolepgeek.  I would have asked him -then-, but I have learned most of what I know about play since.

Quote from: Imp on October 19, 2013, 05:28:06 am

Some of the biggies:  Lurky, unfulfilled promises, overall lack of scumhunting, apparent and claimed lack of focus on game.

But the thing is, I'm not 100% sure he is Scum.  Sure he's Scummy.  He seems the Scummiest to me, even accounting for how he has -worked- to be directly and personally aggressive towards me from early in the game.  But I also have deep concerns about Deathsword/Tiruin, and almost equally deep ones about Squill.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 3 - ONE REPLACEMENT NEEDED
Post by: Imp on November 02, 2013, 03:17:34 am

Quote from: Squill on November 01, 2013, 09:44:46 pm

Squill, your question confuses me.  What fate do you see me decrying?

@Imp: I'm saying that if you were a scum, it makes a lot of sense for you to be the one saying that all is lost for town.[/quote]

Ok, Squill.  I'm going to ask you to put yourself in the situation I was in as the end of D3 approached.  I'm going to use the words 'pretend I am Town' and 'pretend I am Scum' to discuss this situation out of respect for everyone else's viewpoint - those who are Town besides myself have to pretend.

First pretend I am Town.  I have watched the days pass.  No player besides Rolepgeek has voted.  At all.  Or even said they might vote.  There's minimal conversation - Tiruin's talked about having extreme real life upset issues and complications on other threads, she's off the forum and who knows if she can come back when.  I'm not going to get anywhere with Rolepgeek - not only do I think he's the clearest Scum suspect, but he is so relentlessly hostile to me that I don't believe I -can- communicate with him.  bsnott has not appeared for days despite the replacement announcement.  You yourself say you first didn't notice the thread, say you'll be back after school, but don't because of Halloween, and come back 18 hours before the end of the day, not to place a vote (that's fine because you'll be placing an extension, otherwise... what are you doing 18 hours before lylo and not extending?), nor to place an extension (...) but to place questions.  Without.  The extension.  Or a vote.  I answer you fast as I can, but no, you are gone again.  The hours pass, the day nears end.  I, as a Town player - I have no way to save Town under those circumstances.  That it's my death that cinches the game for the Scum, that's meaningless to me.  We are going to lose, and I can do -nothing- about it - and there are two other Town players in the game, who are also not doing anything about it.  I hope you can feel that situation.

Now lets pretend that I'm Scum.  There are very few differences, none of them outwards.  Inwardly, I know it's not my team that loses now - just my death - and we have whatever chance of winning that my partner can pull off.  With the roleblocker gone, the night kill will happen.  The game returns to Lylo on D4, two town and my partner.  These are not desperate odds.  Now, I can try to fake the 'Town me's' reaction.  That's the recommended strategy for Scum - act as Town as you can.  But it is said to be hard to do.  Far harder than being Town.

If I am Scum, I have been Scum all game.  Every reaction I've shown has been a lie.  My every action, especially if it seems genuinely Town, has been carefully corrected, adjusted, tuned and fixed to hide that it's not really what I think, not really what I believe, not really what I feel.  And what I really was feeling then, as Scum, would have been self preservation - not the loss of the game.  I'm going to tell you now, though you have not asked - I would rather win than be alive in play.  I have ego and pride, but remarkably little self preservation - unless my death also means I lose (irl, it does.  In this game - not always... in fact, not even often, if the team can win without me).

If I am Town, I am free of that.  Free to be wrong where I'm really wrong, to take risks where they make sense to me.  I don't have to worry about who sees 'what I'm really doing', I can just play and try to find the players who are lying in their play.

We're into extension time during lylo.  We can extend forever if we want - we can extend until Tiruin comes back too, until we hear from her whatever she wants to say, whatever we want to ask her.

But it's time to start to decide, really, who the scummiest player is if you haven't yet.  Take your time, if you feel you must for now, to avoid giving things away, hold your suspicions to yourself for fear that Scum will latch onto them and twist them, then do so.  I will tell you that in skilled games, that is seen as Scummy and as helping Scum - they already know who's town and who's not.  But I understand, and I'm not going to call you on it - if you are Scum, I believe there will be enough other clues to give you away.

But if you are Town and you want Town to win, I recommend you figure out how you're going to figure out who is the Scummiest player left.  Our group consensus choice of the scummiest player is likely to be a Scum.  Beware players who cannot give a ranked list, for Scum thinks differently than Town, and they do not NEED to make a list of Scummiest Townies, for them the constant real challenge is 'how do I hide', not 'who is playing with the most deceit and hiding what they really feel and think'.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 3 - ONE REPLACEMENT NEEDED
Post by: Squill on November 02, 2013, 08:30:39 am

Quote from: Imp on November 02, 2013, 03:17:34 am

First pretend I am Town.  I have watched the days pass.  No player besides Rolepgeek has voted.  At all.  Or even said they might vote.  There's minimal conversation - Tiruin's talked about having extreme real life upset issues and complications on other threads, she's off the forum and who knows if she can come back when.  I'm not going to get anywhere with Rolepgeek - not only do I think he's the clearest Scum suspect, but he is so relentlessly hostile to me that I don't believe I -can- communicate with him.  bsnott has not appeared for days despite the replacement announcement.  You yourself say you first didn't notice the thread, say you'll be back after school, but don't because of Halloween, and come back 18 hours before the end of the day, not to place a vote (that's fine because you'll be placing an extension, otherwise... what are you doing 18 hours before lylo and not extending?), nor to place an extension (...) but to place questions.  Without.  The extension.  Or a vote.  I answer you fast as I can, but no, you are gone again.  The hours pass, the day nears end.  I, as a Town player - I have no way to save Town under those circumstances.  That it's my death that cinches the game for the Scum, that's meaningless to me.  We are going to lose, and I can do -nothing- about it - and there are two other Town players in the game, who are also not doing anything about it.  I hope you can feel that situation.

@Imp: What I am saying is that, at no point in the game does typing long-winded paragraphs about how doomed town is actually help town. It can in fact, hinder town, as it seems likely to me that the more you tell someone that they have no chance of success, the less likely it is that they'll actually try. To me, it seems like it is not a stretch to say that it is indeed possible that your words are carefully tailored to cripple town, but not make you suspect if it fails.

Quote from: Imp on November 02, 2013, 03:17:34 am

I'm not going to get anywhere with Rolepgeek - not only do I think he's the clearest Scum suspect, but he is so relentlessly hostile to me that I don't believe I -can- communicate with him.

As for Rolepgeek, he is my second choice for scum. He'd be my first, but I really don't have any sort of evidence against him, just a gut reaction, likely stemming to the fact that he has consistently been hostile towards any and all who communicate with him.

I can't get a good read on Tiruin. Tiruin is my third choice simply because of Deathsword's behavior. While Tiruin's posts haven't seemed excessively scummy, they also seem a lot more level headed and probably more experienced than Deathsword.

And finally, there is bsnott. I had little on Mr. Zero, and bsnott hasn't posted much yet. While bsnott doesn't seem excessively town, he also doesn't seem too scummy. This bothers me, and I hope he posts more.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 3 - ONE REPLACEMENT NEEDED
Post by: bsnott on November 02, 2013, 09:44:35 am

@Squill
There really isn't much for me to post right now, as far as I can tell. I'm a complete newb to this game, like I've said before, and I don't know what kind of questions I should be asking right now. Rolepgeek still hasn't replied to me.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 3 - ONE REPLACEMENT NEEDED
Post by: Imp on November 02, 2013, 09:54:03 am

Quote from: bsnott on November 02, 2013, 09:44:35 am

@Squill
There really isn't much for me to post right now, as far as I can tell. I'm a complete newb to this game, like I've said before, and I don't know what kind of questions I should be asking right now. Rolepgeek still hasn't replied to me.

Good morning.  How willing are you to read the thread?  With the understanding that you skim over parts, possibly noting them to review later if you feel the need.  It's great if you're willing to read as much of it as you think you need to, to understand how the game has gone from your own viewpoint.

As you read, it is possible/likely that you will find things that you want to ask about.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 3 - ONE REPLACEMENT NEEDED
Post by: Imp on November 02, 2013, 10:24:32 am

Quote from: Squill on November 02, 2013, 08:30:39 am

@Imp: What I am saying is that, at no point in the game does typing long-winded paragraphs about how doomed town is actually help town. It can in fact, hinder town, as it seems likely to me that the more you tell someone that they have no chance of success, the less likely it is that they'll actually try. To me, it seems like it is not a stretch to say that it is indeed possible that your words are carefully tailored to cripple town, but not make you suspect if it fails.

Squill, to confirm, you are saying that you are sure enough of that I am Scum to select me as your vote in Lylo?  You ask no questions; what you have said is the reason you view me as most likely scum, and you are satisfied as is with your top Scum pick?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 3 - ONE REPLACEMENT NEEDED
Post by: Tiruin on November 02, 2013, 11:57:38 am

Rolepgeek. Squill.

Yeah, let's balance this.

More coming up.

PFP - few hours back. Holiday work. Family stuffs. Lack of candy :(

Extend.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 2 Robot, You - TWO REPLACEMENTS NEEDED
Post by: Imp on November 02, 2013, 01:46:58 pm

I have realized something.  I messed up about how many extend votes were needed, but that doesn't actually change that bsnott is proven to be Town.

Quote from: zombie urist on November 01, 2013, 09:50:54 pm

0 to extend, 2 needed

Only two extends are needed to extend at this point, if no one shortens.  I made a mistake in understanding what I read when I believed we needed 3 extend votes to get an extension.

I'm first going to explain how I made the mistake, because deciding if I believed me would be crucial for me to decide if it was believable, if someone else had made this claim.

The Mod post opening Lylo did not include a vote list or a shorten/lengthen count.  The first extend list shown this day

Quote from: zombie urist on October 29, 2013, 11:09:03 pm

The robots awoke to a sad sight. Superblackcat's body was torn apart. A mass of wires protruded from his shell. This must be the work of evil mal-bots!

ZOM-B scans his remains. Turns out he was a janitor robot. The robots are more sad because now they have to clean up after themselves and robots aren't very good at that.

Everyone strengthens their resolve. They are determined to eliminate the threat.

---

superblackcat has been lynched! He was a town jailkeeper

---

bsnott has replaced Mr.Zero

---

Day 3 will end Friday November 1st at 9PM PST

As of right now, there are NO MOD EDITS on this post (which are allowed, only mods are allowed to edit their posts).  This is proof that the day opened without a count at 0 status showing we needed 2 to extend.

Quote from: zombie urist on October 31, 2013, 11:09:28 pm

1 to extend, 2 needed

When the mod first made a post showing the count, Rolepgeek had already asked for an extend.  I saw this as we have one, needed 2 more.  That's not what it said.  What I mostly noticed was that there was no shorten count.  I asked about that here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4732082#msg4732082).  The mod edited his post two minutes after that question, to put the shorten count in.

(bsnott, that's why we can't edit our own posts, they are a permanent record of things - however the mod IS allowed to edit.  If you ever need to fix something or add something, you make a second post saying what you're doing and do it there.  If anyone gets confused and tries to use the old wrong post, you notice and point out the correction.)

When I looked today and saw Tiruin's request for an extend, I also scanned back and noticed the number needed to extend had shrunk from three to two.  Then I realized that I was wrong about that.

For anyone saying 'Imp, you've been looking at this all game and you have to know by now how to read it' - and that's what I would first challenge - I say 'But I haven't seen it all game.'  The style of counts for extends and shortens has changed during play.  It started the way it is now - but when Tiruin started doing mod posts on D2, Zombie adopted her method of extend counts for the rest of that D.

Quote from: zombie urist on October 24, 2013, 11:21:00 pm

Extend - 0/3
Shorten - 0/4

I have shown earlier in play that I'm a detail orientated player who misses little - I've caught mistakes and asked for their corrections, and I usually see things and understand them correctly.  It's hard to believe me because of this, but I am also a player who really, really needs consistency in rules.  I've talked about that before this post too. 

So that's my proof that I didn't 'set this up' - but even if I did use it as an intentional gambit (which I have to say, now that I've thought it through - I would have used it on purpose to test bsnott, because he didn't lock in a Scum win like Scum should have, instead he acted very reasonably and believably as a newbie might) I reason that bsnott is proven to be Town - all that matters is that he took action to prevent a certain Scum win when he could have taken action or inaction to create a Scum victory.

Spoiler: proof bsnott and I cannot both be Scum, because if we were, Scum would have won last night (click to show/hide)

If he and I are both Scum, that's great motive for me to try and prove him Town - but a total waste of time if true.  This is how the game would have ended last night, if I and bsnott were both Scum - and it would have been a locked down win.

Shorten votes cancel out extend votes, 1 for 1 basis.

We had 90 minutes to end of game.  I remove my extend request (total now 1) - or even switch it to shorten (total now 0).  Completely preventing any chance for an extend.  bsnott and I both vote for any Town.  Squill logs in - the best he could do is say 'extend', but a shorten from either bsnott or myself cancels it.  Game ends without  extend passing - with at best 2 scum votes on any 1 townie, and Squill adding his vote to rolepgeek's - a tie.  Scum victory.  If Squill didn't vote, mislynch and Scum victory.

This does not prove that I a not Scum - but it is proof that bsnott and I together cannot be Scum.

Even though I was wrong about how many we needed to extend - bsnott still is confirmed Town to me, and he did it with that extend request.  He could have said 'shorten', removing the second needed extend vote to pass.  He could have left his vote on me or not - Scum victory either way.  He did what he did -before- Squill posted.  bsnott's actions are incompatible with achieving a Scum win at the point in time where that victory was possible - bsnott is not Scum.

In fact, because of bsnott's extend votes - we now had a total of 3 extend votes, but only needed 2.  If Squill is Scum, come to be around at the end of D, to vote shorten to knock us from 2 votes to 1 and let the day end (that would have been a Scum victory, no matter how Squill voted - or if Rolepgeek is Scum too and bsnott joined me in that vote, then Squill votes for me, returning to the tie and Scum victory) - well even then the day would have extended, so there's no reason to vote to shorten, no reason to prove Squill is Scum.

This doesn't prove Squill is Scum.  But it further supports that bsnott is confirmed Town and explains why no shorten shenanigans were seen.

I'ma add - I view any attempt to use a shorten vote at this point to be proof of Scummitude, until we 5 or as many of that 5 as are willing to talk have had time to catch up, get satisfied, and get at least 3 of us to agree that it's time to shorten because votes are in all the right places to give Town the best chance its got.  And I'll add my extend too.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Cargo Bay, First Day
Post by: bsnott on November 02, 2013, 03:23:30 pm

Quote from: Rolepgeek on October 07, 2013, 10:57:49 pm

Alright. I've pissed myself off enough with procrastinating and lurking that I'm gonna get over my irrational fear of my IPad and post something for fuck's sake.

First, let's respond to questions. Then, I can pick apart Imp at my leisure. Mostly Imp because he's been annoying me and as you could probably guess, I haven't been paying as much attention to the game as I'd like. Now that I've set myself on doing this, I'll be looking through all the posts as I sweep for questions at me, and seeing who looks scummy.

@Rolepgeek So you were going to pick Imp apart purely for annoying you? Is there something wrong with trying to get answers?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 3 - ONE REPLACEMENT NEEDED
Post by: bsnott on November 02, 2013, 09:07:02 pm

@Rolepgeek
Answer the question please.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 3 - ONE REPLACEMENT NEEDED
Post by: Rolepgeek on November 02, 2013, 10:17:51 pm

Dude. It was like six hours between asking the question and demanding an answer. It is not a good time for me to answer the questions in this thread right now. But if you need an answer, I was not going to pick him apart for annoying me. I was going to pick him apart anyway, and was motivated to do so(instead of lurk more because I had no motivation) and focus on him primarily because he was annoying me at the time. There is nothing wrong with trying to get answers, but there can be something wrong with the method you go about it.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 3
Post by: zombie urist on November 02, 2013, 11:57:58 pm

Day extended to Thursday November 7th 9PM PST

Imp - Pufferfish, squill
squill -
bsnott -
Pufferfish - Imp, Tiruin
Tiruin -

Not voting - bsnott

0 to extend, 2 needed
0 to shorten, 3 needed

Pufferfish has replaced Rolepgeek

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 3 -
Post by: Imp on November 03, 2013, 02:10:54 am

Welcome in, Pufferfish.

You are in an interesting spot, if only because this game is at an interesting point.  I am going to unvote  for now.

Please do not type shorten in bold - we have two other recent replacements, one with some real life issues that recently caused a lot of distress, people including yourself need a chance to get settled in and caught up.  Otherwise, take your time and ask any questions you have.


What's your Mafia experience like, and experience with games similar to Mafia?

How willing are you to read this thread  so you understand what's happened before the point you joined?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 3 -
Post by: Imp on November 03, 2013, 02:13:24 am

Bsnott, how goes your readthrough and catching up on what's already happened?

Tiruin, hope you are alright.  Glad you're keeping in touch.

Squill, anything you want to talk about?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 3 -
Post by: Gentlefish on November 03, 2013, 02:20:40 am

Oh boy, I -am- in an interesting spot.

To catch up, I see you've got a good re-cap post. So I can see what I've been up to.

I've played a game similar in a MUD - much shorter, but took an hour or two each play through. Most people are innocents. one or two, depending on group size, are murderers, and there's one cop. Voting was open, debate was open, and actions were secret. So pretty similar.

Seems like I'm coming in on the tail end of a game, too - this should be quite interesting. You put up a lot of good arguments, Imp. The others have, too.

But I'll see what I believe after I read more.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 3 -
Post by: Gentlefish on November 03, 2013, 02:44:44 am

Currently, I'll with-hold any player votes but I will ask to extend.

I don't know how far we are into the day but I might need more than the weekend to catch up.

Imp:

Since you're the most vocal recently, I've been able to read your words a lot more and you sound..... Not so suspicious. This late in the game anyway.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 3 -
Post by: Imp on November 03, 2013, 03:19:41 am

Pufferfish:

Quote from: Pufferfish on November 03, 2013, 02:44:44 am

I don't know how far we are into the day but I might need more than the weekend to catch up.

You have all the time you need to catch up - I'll support any requests for extension if there appears to be any need for more time for anyone.  On this forum, weekends are typically considered to be time off - many players do not post at all during the weekends and we are forbidden to consider that lurking - though we're allowed to appreciate it if people want to play during the weekend to.

Quote from: zombie urist on November 02, 2013, 11:57:58 pm

Day extended to Thursday November 7th 9PM PST

You have an absolute minimum of until then before day ends - At this point I'd consider use of a shorten vote to be proof that someone's Scum (technically, both Scum could vote shorten, all three town could vote extend - and extend would not have enough votes to happen... day would end as scheduled, forcing the lynch of whomever had the most votes at that point - clearly that would need to be someone wanting to shorten and everyone not voting shorten would surely find that easy to agree about.)

I'll add my extend again as well.  I don't think time pressure is anything but distracting right now.  I want people to have as comfortable a time getting caught up and ready to talk this through as possible.  Then I'd like to hear what people have to say, what people think is important and not, and a few other things that I'm not going to discuss now because there's too much else to focus on first, like almost 30 pages of history.

Quote from: Pufferfish on November 03, 2013, 02:44:44 am

Currently, I'll with-hold any player votes but I will ask to extend.

Imp:

Since you're the most vocal recently, I've been able to read your words a lot more and you sound..... Not so suspicious. This late in the game anyway.

Thanks.  At this point votes actually mean nothing to me - until day ends and the lynch happens, votes don't do anything.  Intentions mean stuff, thoughts and decisions - votes are a tool by which the majority of the players will take their best guess as to how to end this with a Scum lynch at Day end, because that's what Lylo means and we're in Lylo.

If the majority are wrong, game over, Scum win.  If the majority are right, then three of us 5 get to do this all over again D4; only then when the lynch happens then it will be possible to achieve a Town win, if right again about who's Scum.

I'm hoping we've talked it out so far before the end of D3 that we have a pretty clear consensus of who both Scum are.  If we get to D4, there's going to be another Town killed by then too, so then there will be only 2 Townies to think and talk and reason - I'd like every player as fully prepared for D4 as possible (and all agreeing as much as possible, so it doesn't matter which Town dies in the night) before we conclude this day.  Might not be possible, but sure would be useful assuming we can establish who is most likely to be Town, and who is most likely to be Scum - it would make the night kill choice meaningless in terms of affecting the odds of a Town win, because all three Town are on the same page; kill any of the three and the other two are already prepared to finish the game with highest probability of a Town win, at least as determined by us five on D3.

Oh, and about your vote.  Like I said, it doesn't matter to me either way, but if you care, your predecessor was already voting (happens to be for me) when you joined the game - you inherited his vote like everything else he had in the game.  If you don't want your vote placed, you're going to need to type unvote in red to change that.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 3 -
Post by: Gentlefish on November 03, 2013, 03:34:24 am

Imp:

Quote from: Imp on November 03, 2013, 03:19:41 am

Pufferfish:

Quote from: Pufferfish on November 03, 2013, 02:44:44 am

I don't know how far we are into the day but I might need more than the weekend to catch up.

You have all the time you need to catch up - I'll support any requests for extension if there appears to be any need for more time for anyone.  On this forum, weekends are typically considered to be time off - many players do not post at all during the weekends and we are forbidden to consider that lurking - though we're allowed to appreciate it if people want to play during the weekend to.

Quote from: zombie urist on November 02, 2013, 11:57:58 pm

Day extended to Thursday November 7th 9PM PST

You have an absolute minimum of until then before day ends - At this point I'd consider use of a shorten vote to be proof that someone's Scum (technically, both Scum could vote shorten, all three town could vote extend - and extend would not have enough votes to happen... day would end as scheduled, forcing the lynch of whomever had the most votes at that point - clearly that would need to be someone wanting to shorten and everyone not voting shorten would surely find that easy to agree about.)

I'll add my extend again as well.  I don't think time pressure is anything but distracting right now.  I want people to have as comfortable a time getting caught up and ready to talk this through as possible.  Then I'd like to hear what people have to say, what people think is important and not, and a few other things that I'm not going to discuss now because there's too much else to focus on first, like almost 30 pages of history.

Quote from: Pufferfish on November 03, 2013, 02:44:44 am

Oh, and about your vote.  Like I said, it doesn't matter to me either way, but if you care, your predecessor was already voting (happens to be for me) when you joined the game - you inherited his vote like everything else he had in the game.  If you don't want your vote placed, you're going to need to type unvote in red to change that.

Unvote it is, then.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 3 -
Post by: Imp on November 03, 2013, 03:50:23 am

Quote from: Pufferfish on November 03, 2013, 03:34:24 am

Unvote it is, then.

*grins*  Because that ended up inside the quote marks, the programs used to help notice votes won't catch it.  When convenient, try that once more, outside of the quote.

Don't worry about any mistakes like that, there's nothing Scummy about learning.

Repeating the link (http://www.ocf.berkeley.edu/~azhou/projects/LT/zt.py?topic=130600&start=0&msg=4635015&sort=user&numreplace=2&replaced0=griffinpup&replacer0=Darvi&replaced1=Lukeinator&replacer1=Persus13&player0=Tiruin&label0=np&numlabel=1) here, there's a vote tracker/lurker tracker/post tracker program that many players use to help keep up with the thread (happens our moderator wrote and hosts this one).  I mostly use the program for checking when someone last posted (especially if it's been a while) and for easily finding and opening a group of a specific player's posts, but it's got a lot of uses.

But I think our Mod uses that program heavily, and because your unvote is inside a quote, it won't even be picked up by the vote-tracking parts of the program (that way we can quote each other when votes/unvotes are used, but not screw up the vote-tracking of our own real votes).

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 3 -
Post by: Gentlefish on November 03, 2013, 04:07:43 am

Bweh. That was pure accident hahaha unvote me. I'd like to make a more... informed decision.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 3 -
Post by: Tiruin on November 03, 2013, 04:19:50 am

Before I complete my post (yeah holidays + preparing for uni), I'd like to ask a few things.

Squill: It is LYLO. You're seriously voting for Imp under grounds of this (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4735032#msg4735032) accusation? The same would follow for Rolepgeek, but by far--what Imp said is perfectly her own opinion, and will not daunt others from playing. I mean, its pretty obvious that people would be irritated or depressed at the level of activity given how much effort they've put into it.

Humor me. Did you think that case would be believable enough to stand? You seem to be concluding more than investigating, given how you aren't leaving anything for Imp. Is that a conclusion back there?

---

Pufferfish. You have a nice name.

I suspect Rolepgeek for pulling a behind-the-scene retreat given the presence of his vote, and the lack of proof/evidence behind said vote. Tell me, in your own opinion, how this whole post (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4731858#msg4731858) feels to you. While you are a replacement and not held on accusations which speak of the previous party's act--being subjective in this matter--you hold up his role and name. Check the link, and tell me your opinion there. Same goes for the line of reasoning on scumhunting: Does anger define scum?

Especially the last line. People voting for someone for...complaining (where the crux of that situation lies in activity) is a very fallible case, if at all a case.

Also, how do you view Imp?

---

Imp:
I see you as town. How does that feel?

The crucial part of the game is the endgame. So far the middle and beginning lead up to it. Where do you see the difference between a newbie-tell and a scum-tell?

I'd love to know why you go into detail in explaining yourself. :P

bsnott You're new. Welcome to Bay12.

This is forum mafia. Know that we're divided by only two things: the lack of body language and the presence of timezones. Expect answers to be delayed, but not outright ignored-if something is amiss, call out the person and check up on them.

At this stage in the game, I'd like to ask you how you see aggression, and its relevance to being scum/town. So too goes detailing your posts-how does this appear to you? Know that I ask in general as...well, replacements this late in game really kills the tracing on people.

Imp/Puff: (I do recall you like being called Puff..)
Why did you both unvote?

---

---

---

Quote from: Rolepgeek on November 02, 2013, 10:17:51 pm

Dude. It was like six hours between asking the question and demanding an answer. It is not a good time for me to answer the questions in this thread right now. But if you need an answer, I was not going to pick him apart for annoying me. I was going to pick him apart anyway, and was motivated to do so(instead of lurk more because I had no motivation) and focus on him primarily because he was annoying me at the time. There is nothing wrong with trying to get answers, but there can be something wrong with the method you go about it.

I would love for you to remember that Imp is female. >.>

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 3 -
Post by: Gentlefish on November 03, 2013, 04:31:31 am

@Tiruin

Quote from: Tiruin on November 03, 2013, 04:19:50 am

Imp/Puff: (I do recall you like being called Puff..)
Why did you both unvote?

I unvoted because I'm reading up on what's going on. Although I assumed the role of RPG, I do not assume his assumptions on people.

Also I am okay with Puff, Puffer, Fish, and other permutations. Puff, I find, is easiest.

Quote from: Tiruin on November 03, 2013, 04:19:50 am

Pufferfish. You have a nice name.

I suspect Rolepgeek for pulling a behind-the-scene retreat given the presence of his vote, and the lack of proof/evidence behind said vote. Tell me, in your own opinion, how this whole post (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4731858#msg4731858) feels to you. While you are a replacement and not held on accusations which speak of the previous party's act--being subjective in this matter--you hold up his role and name. Check the link, and tell me your opinion there. Same goes for the line of reasoning on scumhunting: Does anger define scum?

Especially the last line. People voting for someone for...complaining (where the crux of that situation lies in activity) is a very fallible case, if at all a case.

Also, how do you view Imp?

I point, a little, to my top words. I don't assume RPG's personality or their assumptions and I believe I needed to catch up and dissect the words of everyone before I decide a vote.

When it comes to Anger and Scum-dom, there is a difference. A pretty big one. But when played right, anger can be portrayed as scum, and vice-versa. I honestly didn't understand his vote. Imp is vocal, yes, and has made it this far, yes; but that doesn't mean Imp is scum.

Imp is vocal and has actually helped me understand the game as it currently stands. It really is a great time to hop in, right into the midst of it all. No-one can be counted out for me right now, though I honestly hold Imp in a positive light. I feel RPG was was just pestering, not pressuring.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 3 -
Post by: Imp on November 03, 2013, 05:36:36 am

Welcome back, Tiruin.

Quote from: Tiruin on November 03, 2013, 04:19:50 am

Imp:
I see you as town. How does that feel?

Where do you see the difference between a newbie-tell and a scum-tell?

I feel keenly aware that three of us are shooting in the dark, aiming for the two of us who have knowledge and hostile intent.  But it's not totally dark, the history of every post made this game is lit.  Each player's strategies, such as they are, are laid out behind us.  This is complicated by the inexperience most of us have.

You see me as Town...  I feel deeply neutral about that.  I think I know why you do, if you are Scum - and why you do, if you are Town.  Subtracting a Scum's extra knowledge, the reasoning between either is largely the same.  It's about intention, and the difference between newbie-tell and scum-tell.

Newbie-tells.  You don't know how to get what you want.  Don't know how to tell when you have it.  Like a baby wants a toy, but can't control his limbs to reach for it.  The toy put into his hands, can't control his grip and drops it.  That's the deepest level of newbie-tell.  Scum-tell.  Newbie or not, Scum tells are hostile.  Sometimes very subtly hostile.  They have a goal of guiding the search for Scum into directions that do not lead towards Scum.  This can be done anywhere on the spectrum of active to passive, from cautious to risky.

The line between a newbie, unable to effectively control how they act, unable to tell if their plans and the results are helpful or not, and a Scum, possibly equally newbie and thus equally errant and unpredictable, is in consistency.  The newbie Townie cannot help but do right and wrong things, but will be trying to do right things.  Will reach towards trying to do right action and on the level of their understanding will reach towards dropping wrong actions and reach towards right ones.

The newbie (or experienced) Scum is trying to avoid doing the right things, in the right way which could lead to the detection of Scum.  There may be newbie tells here too, but the scum is trying to avoid right action while not looking like they're trying to avoid it.

So a Scumtell is right action, focused only in the wrong directions.  Another is mostly ineffectual action, in any and all directions - that one's impossible to tell from newbie - without looking at intention.  That measure of intention, shown over time, or most rarely, shown in key moments where choices must be made that actually greatly affect wincon conditions and are hard even for a newbie to misunderstand.  That intention is the core of Scumtell, newbie or not.

Or so it seems to me.  As to your seeing me as Town, regardless of your role.  I have acted, consistently and persistently, towards the achievement of a Town win from my first post of play.  Not all of my actions have been effective, some have been counterproductive.  I have responded to the results of my actions and shown, again and again, that I am reaching 'for the good' and 'recoiling from the bad'.  This is a Town-tell, and I believe that my play over the entire course of the game shows a solid mix of Town-tells and Newb-tells, that this is visible, constant, and strong.

My feeling about your words, They are honest; but it cannot be used to help determine your role, because my intentions as shown in my play are not the sort of thing that is easy to miss if looked for and you're the sort of mind that looks.  It would be downright weird for you to say anything else, at least without express examples, asking me what I did, why I did it, why I stopped doing some things and shifted to doing other things.  You would be failing to appear to be Town yourself if you did not Scumhunt Scumminess as you saw it.

You are, quite appropriately, inviting me to make my stance clearer on other issues, those you feel appropriate for clarity and better revealing my intentions and comfort of thought.  If you are Scum, in the situations of this game, I expect your expression of anti-Town motive to be -extremely- subtle and deep.  I expect all surface and middle level of behavior from you to clearly express Town motives.  I've put considerable thought into how I'm going to try and determine your role.  That will not be discussed this thread, but in the next I post to you.

Quote from: Tiruin on November 03, 2013, 04:19:50 am

I'd love to know why you go into detail in explaining yourself. :P

Reason varies at different points where I do.  The main three reasons are:

1) Some of the people I'm playing beside I believe may not have much experience to judge on.  By offering a whole line of thought I hope to allow them to follow, step by step if needed, and decide where they agree and disagree with each conclusion and opinion I offer.  This is both offered as an example of 'how to do it' and as 'showing my work', showing each stage of my intention and reasoning, as a way to better allow people to judge what may possibly otherwise seem to be logic jumps and extremely unreasonable.  This reasoning greatly increases my use of detail when I believe I play beside highly inexperienced people.

2) If I cannot understand someone's line of thinking, it looks flawed to me.  That's a very deep bias, on the level of 1+3=6 is flawed.  But I do not need to reach the same conclusions as the other to understand the other.  All I need to do is be able to see as they see, and see how they reasonably could see it.  -That- works for me.  Really deeply, smoothly, and comfortably.  I believe a lot of people have trouble lying on that level, especially about motivation and intention.  I use this when I wish to invite others into my perspective, especially when 'I'm doing something weird'.

3)  I sometimes choose to 'over-explain' because I've experienced 'You don't make sense' a lot throughout my life - often about things that look very clear (complex, yes, but clear) to me.  So I explain why I think what I do - so others can see how I see, see how I got there, and hopefully follow it and if I'm wrong, show me which step is wrong and what's wrong about it.  If they follow it and go somewhere else, I hope they can help me see the alternate path so that I can follow it too - because if I wasn't already following it, I either didn't see it, or saw something wrong about it.

Quote from: Tiruin on November 03, 2013, 04:19:50 am

Imp/Puff: (I do recall you like being called Puff..)
Why did you both unvote?

I want Puff, bsnott, and you to get caught up on the thread.  I'm not ready to move 'forward' until everyone's ready to play.  Votes are a form of moving forward.

I was worried about 'vote shenanigans' until recently.  However no two players can make a shorten happen and we have a long way to go until end of day.  The end of day that recently almost occurred put a LOT of power into the hands of a small number of our players - because of 1)overall inactivity and 2) vote placement 3) and imminent end of day.

Right now we've got overall activity, significant time before end of day gets close again, and two very new replacements.  I am currently unconcerned about vote manipulation because I think it's impossible under current circumstances to pull off for a Scum win, and I believe they won't try something that obvious without a guaranteed win.

My unvote should not be taken as a change of heart, stance, or opinion upon the role possessed by Rolepgeek/Pufferfish.  I will state that none of these, nothing of my opinion of that role has changed in the slightest as of yet.  I viewed that role as the most certain probability of being Scum and I still do.

I intend my unvote as a gesture of respect to the new replacee and an overt invitation to spend time 'catching up' without any possible perception of additional pressure from the vote - there's already tons of pressure I do believe.

To me votes are a form of active request.  I may be requesting someone act to provide information, act to provide attention, act to provide a behavioral change, or be acted upon to provide proof of their role; but my current request to Pufferfish is utterly passive (on my side).

I'm requesting him to catch up on the thread, to figure out what's happened/is happening, to decide where he stands, and to let me know when he's ready.  He appears perfectly willing to cooperate, these appear to be in line with his current intentions and actions even without knowing my preference - if anything changed in his behavior from awareness of my vote upon him, it almost certainly could not be a change in the directions I wish him to take.

Thus my vote is in abeyance, for now.  This will change when I am ready to ask for actions to occur.

Considering your experience, Tiruin, I ask you as our IC: Is my reasoning appropriate for 'proper standards of play' in this game?  Is the action itself reasonable?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 3 -
Post by: bsnott on November 03, 2013, 11:40:21 am

Quote from: Tiruin on November 03, 2013, 04:19:50 am

bsnott You're new. Welcome to Bay12.

This is forum mafia. Know that we're divided by only two things: the lack of body language and the presence of timezones. Expect answers to be delayed, but not outright ignored-if something is amiss, call out the person and check up on them.

At this stage in the game, I'd like to ask you how you see aggression, and its relevance to being scum/town. So too goes detailing your posts-how does this appear to you? Know that I ask in general as...well, replacements this late in game really kills the tracing on people.

I'm not actually new to Bay12, just to Mafia. I've familiarized myself with the terminology and gameplay mechanics on EpicMafia lately, a good 20 games by now. I understand how to cc and out and things like that, but I still don't understand scumhunting.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 3 -
Post by: Imp on November 03, 2013, 01:43:17 pm

Quote from: bsnott on November 03, 2013, 11:40:21 am

I'm not actually new to Bay12, just to Mafia. I've familiarized myself with the terminology and gameplay mechanics on EpicMafia lately, a good 20 games by now. I understand how to cc and out and things like that, but I still don't understand scumhunting.

Heh, that must be different, at least in terminology.  I've no idea what cc and out mean, that's not been talked about in the games I've read or anything else.  I'll go google them in connection to epicmafia, that'll surely find them, but here's some references to scumhunting that I've found good.

You're going to notice that these are mostly guides for playing well as Scum.  That's where I've found what I think is the clearest Scumhunting advice.

http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Mastin%27s_Mafia_Q%26A  (how do I scumhunt section, especially 2,3, 6 and 8 - other tips seem vague, less useable at lylo, or designed for more advanced games to me)
http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=A_(slightly)_in-depth_guide_for_playing_well_as_scum
http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Interactive_Tells (sections Townhunting is just as important as scumhunting., Mindset is linked heavily into interactions., The "how" is just as important as the "why"!,  the entire "What about other tells?" section and the rest of the article from that point.

Also the first post in the thread, the spoilers 'Spoiler: A List of Common Scumtells' and 'Frequently Asked Questions' spoiler.  There's also a 'Spoiler: Dakarian's Scumhunting Bible, reposted here for your convenience' - However that bible seems only useful for D1 play to me, I'd suggest comparing that to information in the mafiascum links and deciding for yourself what's useful to you.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 3 -
Post by: Gentlefish on November 03, 2013, 07:55:47 pm

Imp:

Thanks for the wiki links, and most of all the voter-link. That's helping me figure out exactly how RPG's been playing. And how you've been playing, and how Squill's been playing, and BSnott and Tiruin... Well, everyone.

Question for you, though.

At which post did you decide RPG to be the scummiest?

Tiruin:

You're the IC here. What do you believe is the best way forward for town to win? What do you think the scum is going to/should do? How should we move forward to prevent said plan?

Squill:

What are you planning to do in this situation? You've upped your posts recently. Do you think you could help the town win?

BSnott:

Hello, it's my first game, too. the previous caretaker of your role was fingered as very suspicious by a lot of people. Can you convince me, through interpretive dance the previous posts of the person whose role you picked up why you're not someone I should be suspicious of?

Imp/Squill:

Since you two seem to be the most active, you two must have a good idea of what's going on. What are the chances of co-ordination of a hunt, however loose that may be?

Everyone:

Who're you most suspicious of? I understand that I'm likely on a few of your lists and I take no offense. I did replace a suspicious looking person.

Currently on my list I have Mr.Zero-now-BSnott. I mean no offense to you BSnott. As was my case, you picked up a suspicious role, and, to keep it concise, I believe there enough evidence for me to be suspicious.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 3 -
Post by: Tiruin on November 03, 2013, 09:38:23 pm

Mod: Votecount. Timecount. Regular update please! :)

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Puff

Quote from: Pufferfish on November 03, 2013, 07:55:47 pm

Tiruin:

You're the IC here. What do you believe is the best way forward for town to win? What do you think the scum is going to/should do? How should we move forward to prevent said plan?

Tiruin draws out an arc welder and turns it on. "The best way forward is the most direct path. It begins when you start."

If I were to predict scum movement, I'd say they're taking it easy. Town (and I) are busied by RL and/or, inactivity. Inactivity is a scumplot. When I say that, I mean that they can easily win given:
a. A NK (the factional NightKill)
b. Vote manipulation (manual red-voting at the last second [yea, this is...frowned upon by general honor]) or..abilities--not in a BM.
Which details why activity = Town's best power. Town is the general mass of people. The Mafia are those shady people who know each other, and know who to strike. The former relies on talking to each other and the process of communication and information dissemination to win, while the other relies more on obfuscation/redirection of ideas and implanting misbelief or chaos, with subjective levels of such in every game, to achieve their wincon. Or just play a good 'towngame'.

Expecting the scumIC, he'd be talking about theoretical advances and which way to win. I cannot talk more about that because the matter is...superfluous or nebulous given this case.

Any plan taken, however, is prevented by action. Wherein action equals posting. Pertinent and relevant posting.

Quote from: Pufferfish on November 03, 2013, 07:55:47 pm

Who're you most suspicious of? I understand that I'm likely on a few of your lists and I take no offense. I did replace a suspicious looking person.

Currently on my list I have Mr.Zero-now-BSnott. I mean no offense to you BSnott. As was my case, you picked up a suspicious role, and, to keep it concise, I believe there enough evidence for me to be suspicious.

I suspect you, mainly by your predecessor--who votes at a crucial time on grounds of...well, reaction to emotion without expounding on how it affects the outlook of the generality. This falls on Squill, too, however I'm busy playing a conventional mindgame with him right now--it's failing, as you can see by him not speaking.

However both suspects, as of recent and prior time, have had their votes on others on...subtleness. What I see is spuriousness behind the vote.

@/Imp (part of your post's query is also here) is...performing very well. TBH, I'd be surprised if she was scum, and this has no basis on her...rant(?) earlier given her play this game despite the faulty wiring it has received.

And bsnott is really vague in my eye because I've been reading more on his predecessor. Mr.Zero, I find, is a person of contemplation. Nothing I've seen for and against him as of now (read incomplete) strikes me as obviously scummy.

Recounting: D3 - where I started my outlook (from most recent to back in the thread), I checked and related the relevance of suspicion to the actor and their vote. Said two people come out on top with..unclear motive and debatable performance. It's unstable play and shaky ground, to best describe my sight of them.

Expounding.
Rolepgeek (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4731858#msg4731858)'s last post. The one which attracted my attention (since I was reading backwards..yeah  ::))
Point (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4729383#msg4729383) taken on his stance, but the suspicion on why x or y is alive tends to lead into WIFOM territory without explanation. Something which I see is lacking on why Imp is alive or not. A counterargument is why is the discussion even starting on that point, which renders the idea fallible. In general..I'm not seeing this post having lots of substance (sans the expression on activity)

Quote

I think it's extremely suspicious that Imp is still alive. And that neither of the night-kills have been of people he was claiming were scum, for that matter. Seems like he didn't want to prove himself wrong, so he could try to mislynch us.

This point (and IMP IS A SHE) seems like a subtle diversion into something a townie, if such, cannot properly defend against, and a scum-y, could easily handwave. Meaning: It's not direct.
Secondly, (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4706034#msg4706034) comes the mark on Imp's WoTs. While they are...intimidating, sure, it doesn't hurt at all to give it a read for it either details a person's outlook on things, or how he/she analyzes in public-visual form. This can be averted or straightened by giving more specific answers, however I do note one thing. Role not-so-subtly turned the idea of Imp's play into a whole new act against her, or possibly, just mistook the train of thought there.
Check the line of thought to the quote above this:

Quote

Several assumptions being made here that aren't there in reality, as far as I can tell.
First is the assumption that Imp is trying to dominate the game verbally, and that he's using WoTs to try and break apart anyone who disagrees with him.
NEXT, is the assumption that Deathsword is telling Imp to be less active.
Neither of these are true, as far as I can tell. And then there's the underlying assumption, that I'm recently realizing is untrue.
The assumption that WoTs are the best way to go about communicating in this game.

...It does not follow. Cue a note later on the matter on his vote, stating his suspicion.

Quote

Reasons have been given this whole game, and even if you're deciding you've had enough(which could easily be a front, after all), you still aren't dead.

The whole course of logic does not follow, though I do like how he made his starting posts.

This, (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4698008#msg4698008) mayhap, counts for his play and...lackluster act, if he were innocent.

Given this, (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4690720#msg4690720) I can somewhat understand his viewpoint.

I've stated all this as a generality to everyone and not just to a single person.

And one thing I'd love to agree on.

Quote from: Imp on October 22, 2013, 07:26:27 am

Yes to both.  I'm aware that I read faster than most, but during the course of this game I've read several other finished Mafia games, in full.  I enjoy reading and commonly read hundreds of pages of text (written book pages) a day because I want to read it.

*high-five speedreader!*

Spoiler: OOC (click to show/hide)

...I'd love to know where that kind of chatroom is

I will be straightforward with you, my little delectable poison fish, and say that I am wavering on my suspicion on you given the past notes. Your actions, recently, have only spoken of general snooping and inquisitiveness, and preferable honesty on exactly what to do. While it is generally unfair to judge a person via past actions committed, it is generally fair to ascertain whether said actions are *enough* to judge said person.

Tell me. Who do you suspect and why? Do you have any say on my reads?

---

---

---

Imp
I made a long post on my reply to you but I'm at another PC (with better net >_>) so...I'll get back to that later on, due to time constraints and a really really agonizing life at the moment :S

What purposes did you use your vote for, before?
Specifically:
Here. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4690720#msg4690720) With the question above still standing.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 3
Post by: zombie urist on November 03, 2013, 09:43:00 pm

Day extended to Monday November 11th 9PM PST. Note this is one week from tomorrow

Imp - squill
squill -
bsnott -
Pufferfish - Tiruin
Tiruin -

Not voting - bsnott

0 to extend, 2 needed
0 to shorten, 3 needed

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 3 -
Post by: Imp on November 04, 2013, 02:41:00 pm

To bsnott, Puff, and Tiruin:

How caught up are you on your readthroughs?

---

bsnott and Puff:
If your answer is Very or Done - how much do you feel like you understand what has happened (I don't mean agree with, approve of it, or any of that - just comprehension of what was said and does it mean anything other than gibberish to you) and how much did you scim over versus really read?  This affects how I'm going to question you and what I'm going to ask you - as well as how easily I'm going to trust your views and how I discuss your views with you both.

I'm going to remind you both that lying looks super scummy, at least to me.  If, for example, one or both of you feel that reading 20% or so of the thread's the most you're willing to do, and most of it doesn't make sense to you - that's FAR better to admit (if you want Town to win) than saying 'Yeah, I read it all, what do you want to talk about?.  Telling me what you think I want to hear, and getting caught in untruth, is only going to look like red flags of Scumminess to me, more than a desire to not read the thread would look like.

---

bsnott, Puff:

If the answer is less than 'Very caught up on the thread' - I have no further words for you at this time.  Please focus on getting caught up, or tell me that you're not going to and what you have read.  I feel like my ability to meaningfully question or discuss our situation with each of you is severely hampered, because you don't know what's happened.  Sure, I can -tell- you what I think happened and you can discuss with me what you think of my words - that's not what I want, that's not going to help us catch Scum (unless your goal is to use that method to attempt to assess my Scumminess - in which case you still need to read the thread and understand it very well).

I honestly have nothing to say except encouragement to bsnott and Puff until you two are caught up or mostly caught up.  I'm here, I'm glad you're here, keep working on getting ready to have the conversation we're about to have if you're not already ready.  If/when you are ready, please be sure to let us all know.

---

Puff:

Quote from: Pufferfish on November 03, 2013, 07:55:47 pm

Imp:
Question for you, though.

At which post did you decide RPG to be the scummiest?

I will answer this, but I want your answer on how caught up you are on the thread first, please.  Part of the reason why I'd like your answer first is I believe I say this in the thread.

Quote from: Pufferfish on November 03, 2013, 07:55:47 pm

Imp/Squill:

Since you two seem to be the most active, you two must have a good idea of what's going on. What are the chances of co-ordination of a hunt, however loose that may be?

I don't understand what you're asking about, ask again another way?  Include who is hunting, what you mean by a hunt, and what you mean by co-ordination.  Or make any of those definitions clear enough so the rest falls into meaning by context.  Again, it's possible I'm going to request to withhold my answers until you're at least mostly done with the readthrough.

---

Tiruin:

I want you fully caught up on the thread too, but you're different than them in a few ways.  For one, I believe you've been following the thread fairly closely for most of its history.

You formally joined us here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4714234#msg4714234), when zombie announced your replacing Deathsword.

When he did that, he posted the vote count as of that time, and that looked like this:

Quote from: zombie urist on October 24, 2013, 11:21:00 pm

  Imp
  Squill
  Rolepgeek - Imp
  Superblackcat - Rolepgeek
  Mr.Zero
  Deathsword
  Darvi - Superblackcat

He did NOT say anything about when Day ended - which was roughly 24 hours from that post.

---

I greet you and ask you two questions here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4714684#msg4714684).  One of them's if you need time to catch up.  I also remind all that there's 19 hours left to end of Day.

In fact, keep reading from that point, focusing on my and your interactions.  There's too much to quote, so I'm going to hit the highlights.  NO ONE POSTS.... so I post again, 7 hours to end of day.  The vote board is UNCHANGED, because no one has posted, no one has posted VOTE CHANGES.

In this post (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4715858#msg4715858) I say there's seven hours left.  I discuss the TIED VOTES, and explain -

Quote from: Imp on October 25, 2013, 03:50:07 pm

My current strong scum reads, across the entire game, are Rolepgeek and Deathsword-now-Tiruin.  Presuming this silent apathy continues, neither is possible to lynch as the board currently stands.

I have three choices. 

I do not trust anyone to be active in this thread in time before D end.  I will remain periodically active throughout the day, so I am responsive if people actually start posting.

I can allow a tie, which currently exists.  I can do this by not changing my vote, or by unvoting, which would turn a three way tie into a two way tie; no significant difference.

I can switch my vote to Superblackcat.  (explain why I don't - I believe he is probably Town)

I can switch my vote to Griffinpup-became-Darvi.  (explain why I do, despite him being a null-read to me, and one that should have been mod-killed or forcibly mod-replaced given the intense inactivity of an IC no less)

Tiruin, When you finally do post, you appear to ignore ALL of this, despite that you even quote some of the things I've said.

Regarding the end of day/extension issue - when you do post you say this about it:

Quote from: Tiruin on October 25, 2013, 07:32:21 pm

I'd be catching up on it later on-however I really doubt that there'd be time left.

I am..really lacking questions because I am really lacking the time to read up.

But you do NOT ask for an extension.

Quote from: Imp on October 25, 2013, 08:25:15 pm

Quote from: Tiruin on October 25, 2013, 07:32:21 pm

I'd be catching up on it later on...I am really lacking the time to read up.

Yet - you don't ask for extension.  Either.  No one is asking for an extension.  Sure, with no time left to answer my question - why not, Tiruin?

You may not even be alive come D3, to be able to make that promised 'later' post.  Or maybe you're tacitly admitting that yeah, you're scum, you're quite appropriately playing towards your wincon, for which going to night hours after your first post as a player; without having caught up or read up on the thread, without any use of your vote doesn't do anything to impede your wincon at all.  Hot damn.

When I challenge you on this - you reply.  You even quote me saying "less than 3 hours to end of D" -

Quote from: Tiruin on October 25, 2013, 09:05:15 pm

Quote from: Imp on October 25, 2013, 08:25:15 pm

So here we go; less than 3 hours to end of D

Well extending the game.. >_<

Quote from: Imp on October 25, 2013, 08:25:15 pm

Yet - you don't ask for extension.  Either.  No one is asking for an extension.  Sure, with no time left to answer my question - why not, Tiruin?

I..think I did.

And then you go on to focus on explaining your lack of providing a read - something you already explained.

What's that face you made about, what does 'Well extending the game.. >_<' mean?  This is NOT a casual question, Tiruin.  Do NOT disregard it again, as you did repeatedly at the time you answered it.  You had JUST replaced in.  You say repeatedly that that you lack time, you even say "I really doubt that there'd be time left".  Gee, why's that?  Because you don't want an extension, huh?  Why not, Tiruin?  As I asked then.  Why not?  And you STILL haven't answered it.  I don't want 'blah blah words'.  This is a seriously Scummy-seeming thing to me, especially combined with your other lack of reasonable, pro-Town action, which I'll talk about next. 

What I want from you is deep explanation, I want you to put my in your mind and guide me, step by step along your thoughts as you made these decisions.  I'll decide for myself what your motivations were - but your ACTIONS and LACK OF ACTIONS were PRO-SCUM at a time when PRO-SCUM actions could be meaningful and effective.  YOU ARE NOT NEW, STUPID, OR CONSIDERED A POOR PLAYER, AS SCUM OR TOWN.  I -beg- you to explain yourself in a way that makes sense to me, regardless of how offended you feel at my questions.  Not seeking an extension at that time is PURELY pro-Scum, right?  Lack of extension has NO pro-Town value under those circumstances, right?

Quote from: Tiruin on October 25, 2013, 09:05:15 pm

...Ok this insults me as a player. This is not what I would do as any alignment, ever. Because it's, to be saying bluntly, damn cheap. Players have principles and I stick to said principles regardless of what alignment I have, thank you very much.

I'm offended too, Tiruin.  I feel betrayed.  We get through this and we patch it up outside of play, or not.  But I see no other way to play than I am, when faced by every factor that has happened - including and especially your own actions and words since entering play.  Consider me standing on a ledge.  Stepping off of it is accepting what I see, that you are Scum, and you have proven this through your own choices upon joining the game.  Talk me down, please, if you can.  The wrong pressure won't work.  The only one that might is to help me understand why your actions that appear solidly deceptive and of hostile intention, are in fact pro-Town and reasonable play.

But then you made it worse.  On top of acting anti-Town by not seeking the very reasonable and needed Extension, you then place a vote without a word why.  And that vote slams atop the two vote lead, locking that lynch, guaranteeing that death.

Now I'm even more scared that you are Scum.  I have explained that Darvi was a null-read to me, a deeply dissatisfying compromise vote for me (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4715858#msg4715858) and there you are dropping a certain kill strike on him without a word why.  That makes me SO scared I'm afraid to even return my vote to Rolepgeek, for fear that you'll gracefully follow me, knowing as Scum that he's Town, or gracefully -won't- follow me, knowing as Scum that he's Scum.

Your reasons, when they come, begin with asking me

Quote from: Tiruin on October 25, 2013, 10:51:13 pm

...So why did you vote Darvi in the first place?

Your reasons almost perfectly mirror mine (said more briefly, of course) - and this is quite sensible - except your perspective is given from -then-.

When you voted, votecount looked like this:

  Imp
  Squill
  Rolepgeek
  Superblackcat - Rolepgeek
  Mr.Zero
  Deathsword
  Darvi - Superblackcat, Imp

So when you talk about the 'choice' between Superblackcat and Darvi, you actually mean the choice between lynching Darvi and no-lynch.

But you NEVER mention that.  You are discussing it from the perspective of seeing the board as:

  Imp
  Squill
  Rolepgeek
  Superblackcat - Rolepgeek
  Mr.Zero
  Deathsword
  Darvi - Superblackcat

But the board was NEVER like that, NEVER - not since you joined the game.  The board was like THIS:

  Imp
  Squill
  Rolepgeek - Imp
  Superblackcat - Rolepgeek
  Mr.Zero
  Deathsword
  Darvi - Superblackcat

And you FAIL to discuss Rolepgeek as a lynch choice.  You nod towards him, oh, yes:

Quote from: Tiruin on October 25, 2013, 10:51:13 pm

I would really much like Rolepgeek who is voting while in replacement to expound on his reason on SBC, as well as links to it.

That's not discussion of someone as a possible lynch choice.

Your facts, Tiruin, fail to match reality.  You are no confused newbie.  This is your VOTE at in the final HOURS of D2, within 24 hours of yourself replacing in.  You admit you feel time pressured.  You fail to ask for an extension, and when I offer to support one you dismiss that with "Well extending the game.. >_<" and then claim that you thought you DID request an extension.  Then you reference

Quote from: Tiruin on October 25, 2013, 09:26:00 pm

...I had thought that nobody was into extending it -I looked at ZU's votecount at the time.

How can you think that when you -quote me- offering to support an extend?  For that matter, when do you stop making the right choices, even if you are the only one doing so, especially when you are an IC in a newbie game?

Quote from: Tiruin on October 25, 2013, 07:32:21 pm

Quote from: Imp on October 25, 2013, 03:49:55 am

So, Tiruin.

Need time to catch up on the thread?  I'll support anyone's requests for an extension at this point.

YOU EVEN QUOTE ME STATING THAT "My current strong scum reads, across the entire game, are Rolepgeek and Deathsword-now-Tiruin.  Presuming this silent apathy continues, neither is possible to lynch as the board currently stands."

Quote from: Tiruin on October 25, 2013, 07:32:21 pm

Quote from: Imp on October 25, 2013, 03:50:07 pm

My current strong scum reads, across the entire game, are Rolepgeek and Deathsword-now-Tiruin.  Presuming this silent apathy continues, neither is possible to lynch as the board currently stands.

I do not say that Tiruin's Scummy too - there's been no time for that player to show anything of their play in this game as a player.  But she holds a role that looked incredibly scummy to me before - if it was possible to lynch either Rolepgeek or Deathsword-now-Tiruin, one of those two would have my vote now to help ensure that lynch.

Precluding the lack of human response from replacement, hold your doubt or suspicion based on the previous person to hold said role. If past person is scummy, refer all now-questions you had on him to the now-her. :)

WRONG FOCUS.  IT WAS ONLY 4.5 hours to end of day at that point.  How do you ignore that I'm not voting for my top Scum reads?  How do you leap onto Darvi as if Darvi were a clear choice for lynch, when you can't even describe him as one yourself, when you finally 'explain' your vote?

When you do react to my pressure about voting for Darvi, it's NOT to ask me why I'm not voting for my top Scum choice, you have the WRONG FOCUS and you ask instead - and far to late for any possible answer that day, less than 10 minutes before the Day should have closed -

Quote from: Tiruin on October 25, 2013, 10:51:13 pm

...So why did you vote Darvi in the first place?

And I'd already explained that.

Quote from: Tiruin on October 25, 2013, 09:05:15 pm

[quoting me, talking to me, throughout this entire thread]
you're acting the martyr.

...

What's wrong? :S

Darvi.

"What's wrong?"  You're acting like Scum, and I'd picked you out as someone who couldn't join the game, someone who I could feel comfortable with, someone who's {IC} voice, though not really belonging in the thread, I could trust and feel good about hearing.  -AND- I didn't have enough activity to do ANYTHING about it, or at that point, enough -TIME- to even do anything about it myself.

You took my trust in you away -and- you replaced it with 'playing like Scum at a time when playing like Scum has meaning'.

That's what's wrong.  That's a big part of why I said, "Hey Scum, coup de grace time, thank you very much".  Because I don't want to play through this.  For totally different reasons this is just as distasteful as interacting with Rolepgeek.  As I said with him, I will do it if I have to.  If I'd died, I would be off the hook.  If we'd not gotten the activity needed for the game to actually be played to the end (instead of just ending through 'time out', as it nearly did), then the game would have ended without this being able to be examined.

But I'm alive and now there's activity.  'Someone has to do it', I'm someone, and I see these choices you have made.  They look terrifyingly anti-Town to me.

You've had a lot of time to answer this question, but you still haven't: so I'll repeat it.  It's a really important one.  (sure, you 'provided an answer', because you quoted the question, but the answer utterly failed to address the scumminess of your actions OR clearly explain your behaviors and the GLARING LACKS of certain very reasonable and clearly sensible things that you fail to say and do, like ask for extension - like discuss my vote change and statement that I'm compromising because I cannot get either of my two top Scum picks lynched as is) but your answer is completely inadequate for my purpose of understanding why what you did was an experienced player's pro-Town actions)

Quote from: Imp on October 25, 2013, 10:03:04 pm

If you are not Scum, then why the heck are you doing this?

Also - I'm not ignoring your questions to me.

Quote from: Tiruin on November 03, 2013, 09:38:23 pm

And one thing I'd love to agree on.

Quote from: Imp on October 22, 2013, 07:26:27 am

Yes to both.  I'm aware that I read faster than most, but during the course of this game I've read several other finished Mafia games, in full.  I enjoy reading and commonly read hundreds of pages of text (written book pages) a day because I want to read it.

*high-five speedreader!*

Spoiler: OOC (click to show/hide)

...I'd love to know where that kind of chatroom is

I'm not talking about a chat room.  My "(written book pages)" are written book pages, I'm talking about reading books.  If I put all day aside to read, I can easily read a 500 page book in a day, with high memory and high comprehension.  I read roughly a page a minute, and reading is effortless to me.

Quote from: Tiruin on November 03, 2013, 09:38:23 pm

Imp
I made a long post on my reply to you but I'm at another PC (with better net >_>) so...I'll get back to that later on, due to time constraints and a really really agonizing life at the moment :S

What purposes did you use your vote for, before?
Specifically:
Here. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4690720#msg4690720) With the question above still standing.

I'm super sorry that you have agony in life.  Take the time you need, I'm going to push for extends until people have time to readthrough however much they're willing to, and for people including yourself to be able to answer.

I will answer the question about my vote's purpose next post.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 3 -
Post by: Squill on November 04, 2013, 03:43:38 pm

Really sorry for not being here yesterday, all.

Quote from: Tiruin on November 03, 2013, 04:19:50 am

Before I complete my post (yeah holidays + preparing for uni), I'd like to ask a few things.

Squill: It is LYLO. You're seriously voting for Imp under grounds of this (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4735032#msg4735032) accusation? The same would follow for Rolepgeek, but by far--what Imp said is perfectly her own opinion, and will not daunt others from playing. I mean, its pretty obvious that people would be irritated or depressed at the level of activity given how much effort they've put into it.

Humor me. Did you think that case would be believable enough to stand? You seem to be concluding more than investigating, given how you aren't leaving anything for Imp. Is that a conclusion back there?

I think you're right. Imp was my best vote, but it was terribly thought out. For now, unvote.

Quote from: Pufferfish on November 03, 2013, 07:55:47 pm

Squill:

What are you planning to do in this situation? You've upped your posts recently. Do you think you could help the town win?

Currently, I plan on hopefully doing some sort of scumhunting. I hope I can help, but I'm a bit distracted right now.
Do you feel like Rolepgeek was justified in his actions?
How heavily do you think that the actions of past players should be taken into account when analyzing their replacements?

Thinking about the game, the players I feel most ambiguous about are Deathsword/Tiruin, bsnott/Mr. Zero.
@bsnott: Same questions for you:
Throughout the game, Mr. Zero had consistently bizarre behavior, noticeably tunneling SBC for the entire game. Do you think there's a reason for this?
How heavily do you think that the actions of past players should be taken into account when analyzing their replacements?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 3 -
Post by: Imp on November 04, 2013, 06:40:13 pm

Squill, your backpedaling in your most recent post terrifies me.

I need you to state your mind, and when your mind changes, I need you to state why.  I need to understand your reasoning, period.  That means you need to say enough of it for me to follow it well enough to understand it and when it changes, you need to identify how and what changed your mind.

You ranked the four other players besides yourself in terms of Scumminess and somewhat explain why we are ranked so.

You vote for me, but at no point do you say I'm your top Scum pick, unless we want to use your vote as saying that, and the fact that you DO say who your second and third pick are, then your scummiest pick is either me, who has your vote, or bsnott, who you say " I had little on Mr. Zero, and bsnott hasn't posted much yet. While bsnott doesn't seem excessively town, he also doesn't seem too scummy. This bothers me, and I hope he posts more." and you list him last, after 2nd scummiest, after 3rd scummiest.

That strongly supports that you meant that your Scummiest to Towniest (or at least least-scummiest) choices are

Imp
Rolepgeek/Puff
Deathsword/Tiruin
Mr.Zero/bsnott


And that's fine.  Except you've just gone back on that and you haven't explained why at all.

Quote from: Squill on November 04, 2013, 03:43:38 pm

Thinking about the game, the players I feel most ambiguous about are Deathsword/Tiruin, bsnott/Mr. Zero.

That means you feel the least ambiguous about Imp and Rolepgeek/Puff.

I'm going to ask you to state clearly, is Imp still your top Scumpick?  If yes, please state that case that others have also asked to see.  If not, please explain your complete about face, from moving me from your top Scumpick to your top Townpick with less ambiguosity than you feel for Deathsword/Tiruin, bsnott/Mr. Zero - which considering the reasons you gave for them seeming ambiguous -

Quote from: Squill on November 02, 2013, 08:30:39 am

I can't get a good read on Tiruin. Tiruin is my third choice simply because of Deathsword's behavior. While Tiruin's posts haven't seemed excessively scummy, they also seem a lot more level headed and probably more experienced than Deathsword.

And finally, there is bsnott. I had little on Mr. Zero, and bsnott hasn't posted much yet. While bsnott doesn't seem excessively town, he also doesn't seem too scummy. This bothers me, and I hope he posts more.

You're saying you can't read them.  So you're saying you -can- read me, at least better than them, and good enough to that I'm apparently your top Scum or top Town pick.  That's fine.  Being right or wrong is not Scummy - suspecting me (even if everyone else says I seem very Town to them) is not Scummy either.  But I need to understand why you think I am.

Even more than I need to understand you (if I am Scum and you are Town) you need to either test me as best you can (if you haven't yet), or present your already strong reasoning to the 'other Town players', especially if they're not seeing what you see, because there can be no mistakes now.  One mistake and Town loses.  So there's no time to 'wait and see'.  It is impossible to convince a player that they themself are Scum - but you can and should present your evidence to the other Town players, so the other Town players can be either convinced as well, or help you consider and test that evidence further, or help contradict you and point out that your reasoning is flawed.

Does this make sense?  If not, will you please point out what's wrong to you about my reasoning?

And will you please state with clarity, what your list of most-to-least-Scummiest players are?

And remember, more than one player has asked you to explain your case on me.  That would be great too.

You thinking I am Scum or not will NOT convince me that you are Town or Scum.  But being able to understand your thinking, especially over time (and thus exposing your intentions) - that CAN convince me, and will.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 3 -
Post by: Squill on November 04, 2013, 09:33:49 pm

Quote from: Imp on November 04, 2013, 06:40:13 pm

Squill, your backpedaling in your most recent post terrifies me.

I need you to state your mind, and when your mind changes, I need you to state why.  I need to understand your reasoning, period.  That means you need to say enough of it for me to follow it well enough to understand it and when it changes, you need to identify how and what changed your mind.

You ranked the four other players besides yourself in terms of Scumminess and somewhat explain why we are ranked so.

You vote for me, but at no point do you say I'm your top Scum pick, unless we want to use your vote as saying that, and the fact that you DO say who your second and third pick are, then your scummiest pick is either me, who has your vote, or bsnott, who you say " I had little on Mr. Zero, and bsnott hasn't posted much yet. While bsnott doesn't seem excessively town, he also doesn't seem too scummy. This bothers me, and I hope he posts more." and you list him last, after 2nd scummiest, after 3rd scummiest.

@Imp:I think it probably has something to do with the fact that every now and again, I post only because the alternative is not posting. Whether I just had a bad day or whatever, I sometimes don't make the best posts.
But the thing about you is, in my view, your intentions are so difficult to read. I am near constantly switching between your posts as extensively detailed and thorough attempts to scumhunt, and veiled threats. It seems like no one has really challenged you a whole lot, and if you want to many of the less active players would gladly follow your lead, or risk getting lynched themselves. It irritates me that I can see two different possibilities of your posts, but have so much trouble discerning what it is.

Now that more people are active, though, I am feeling a bit better about this.
I can't make an incredibly accurate list of my scum/town picks, because I have a tendency to change them. But for right now, here it is:
1. bsnott: My main problem is that I really have nowhere to go with him. Mr. Zero was fairly quiet and had a strange vendetta against SBC, but other than that I really have nothing. @bsnott: How do you think that you can affect this game? Do you believe that you will play, or just fall into silence? I am going to vote on you until you give some answers.
2. Imp: For reasons mentioned above, mainly intentions that I can easily see going either way.
3. Pufferfish: While Rolepgeek would have been my second pick, Puff is a lot better. I think that, to be quite frank, RPG was just a little bit rude.
4. Tiruin: This is the pick that bothers me most. While Tiruin is almost as hard to read to me as bsnott, I am fairly convinced that what I have seen is town. This brings up another issue: Tiruin is probably much more experienced than any of us. If he is scum, we will have a hard time finding out.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 3 -
Post by: Tiruin on November 04, 2013, 10:01:00 pm

Quote from: Squill on November 04, 2013, 09:33:49 pm

4. Tiruin: This is the pick that bothers me most. While Tiruin is almost as hard to read to me as bsnott, I am fairly convinced that what I have seen is town. This brings up another issue: Tiruin is probably much more experienced than any of us. If he is scum, we will have a hard time finding out.

[Firstly: She.
Secondly: My post to you would come soon. Same to Imp given the workload I have. Said post relates first to all posts before Reply #434]\
^IC voice.

---

Thirdly: I'm an IC. If I was scum, I'd be aiming to teach on exacts what scum would really really do--both in pertaining to their wincon and in following their wincon, what to do in order to achieve such (wherein you should see the concept in the context and not the exact words).

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 3 -
Post by: Squill on November 04, 2013, 10:16:56 pm

Quote from: Tiruin on November 04, 2013, 10:01:00 pm

Quote from: Squill on November 04, 2013, 09:33:49 pm

4. Tiruin: This is the pick that bothers me most. While Tiruin is almost as hard to read to me as bsnott, I am fairly convinced that what I have seen is town. This brings up another issue: Tiruin is probably much more experienced than any of us. If he is scum, we will have a hard time finding out.

[Firstly: She.
Secondly: My post to you would come soon. Same to Imp given the workload I have. Said post relates first to all posts before Reply #434]\
^IC voice.

---

Thirdly: I'm an IC. If I was scum, I'd be aiming to teach on exacts what scum would really really do--both in pertaining to their wincon and in following their wincon, what to do in order to achieve such (wherein you should see the concept in the context and not the exact words).

Motherfuck. Sorry, I now specifically remember thinking earlier, "Okay, Imp and Tiruin are not he's."

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 3
Post by: zombie urist on November 05, 2013, 12:34:35 am

Day ends Monday November 11th 9PM PST. One week from today.

Imp -
squill -
bsnott - squill
Pufferfish - Tiruin
Tiruin -

Not voting - bsnott, Imp, Pufferfish

0 to extend, 2 needed
0 to shorten, 3 needed

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 3 -
Post by: Gentlefish on November 05, 2013, 03:52:28 am

Imp:

Quote

How caught up are you on your readthroughs?

Mostly. I read through Day One and then everyone's last ten posts since before my joining. And all of RPG's posts, which got me through most of it as I read the replies as well.

I think I've got a fairly good grip on the matter, at least especially on how RPG was being a dill hole. I'd seriously almost call it a flame war. There wasn't any scumhunting there. On both sides, I really have to say. The votes there didn't have much weight for me when it came down to it. Going back through it I believe I've read the majority of this thread and I've got a general idea of where things stand.


Also there was Mr. Zero's vagueness with literally everything which really was weird. I don't like that. How BSnott takes his role I'll have to find out.

Quote

I don't understand what you're asking about, ask again another way?  Include who is hunting, what you mean by a hunt, and what you mean by co-ordination.  Or make any of those definitions clear enough so the rest falls into meaning by context.  Again, it's possible I'm going to request to withhold my answers until you're at least mostly done with the readthrough.

Take the role positions left and attempt to parse them out. I ask for you two, as I said, because you are the most active. Recently, anyway. Therefore, the most likely to get a lot done.

@Imp:
Sounds like you're pretty curious about Tiruin. Could I ask you to sum this feeling you have about her in a few sentences and links to quotes?

@Tiruin:
Yeah questions! That's how cases are solved. What's your defense to Imp's accusations? there's tossing about the phrase "WRONG FOCUS". Do you believe you had the "WRONG FOCUS"?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 3 -
Post by: Imp on November 05, 2013, 08:00:41 am

Puff:

I know you haven't read much of D2, but there's a lot of interaction there between myself, Rolepgeek, and Deathsword.

When you can, would you give that second a look over and tell me if you feel like Deathsword is trying to defend Rolepgeek, if Rolepgeek is trying to defend Deathsword, if they're both trying to defend each other, or if neither's defending each other, to your eyes?

Quote from: Pufferfish on November 05, 2013, 03:52:28 am

Take the role positions left and attempt to parse them out. I ask for you two, as I said, because you are the most active. Recently, anyway. Therefore, the most likely to get a lot done.

Oh!  Yes, but it better not be just me and him doing so.  We're just two players - there's just two Scum.  Would you be comfortable with me and him 'figuring out who is what alignment'?

Personally, I'm going to be extremely uncomfortable if we cannot get all 5 of us talking - though I'm willing to be patient for a bit longer.  People need time to get caught up reading (maybe still), and Tiruin at least has some major real life stuff of some sort going on (I know from her posts in other threads), which delays her participation.  If necessary, we can keep extending.

When all 5 of us are talking, it's important to not forget that two of us have a goal of trying to make sure everyone comes to a wrong result.  We're NOT all 5 going to agree, that's for sure.  But I think examining the differences of that discussion will be most enlightening.

As for myself, I don't intend to ask you to evaluate much about Rolepgeek.  I'll be asking you to evaluate us four - the same as I'll be asking everyone, evaluate everyone but yourself.  (explain yourself, that can come up too, that's part of scumhunting.  But it's not productive I don't think to ask someone what the odds they give on themself being Town is).

Quote from: Pufferfish on November 05, 2013, 03:52:28 am

@Imp:
Sounds like you're pretty curious about Tiruin. Could I ask you to sum this feeling you have about her in a few sentences and links to quotes?

You can, and I could do it (and already have, at more than one point in the history of the thread), but I'm going to hold off doing so again right now.  What matters most is not how I felt (which I believe she understands) but what my concerns are, and especially how she answers them.  Expect me to be quite willing to discuss how I have come to feel about her when the time is right - it'll be after she's answered and possibly after there's been some discussion past that point.

Squill:

Veiled threats, the sort that you see in my writing, do you believe those are exclusively Pro-Town behavior, Anti-Town behavior, or a mixture of both?  If it's a mixture, what's the ratio approximately seem to be?

A factor that affects now, which didn't before (in case you see me as a bully or whatever else bad, be I Town or not) - we have no room for a mislynch.

If I am Town, or if I want to appear to be Town, I can't 'vote someone to push them around' in Lylo - at least I don't think I can.  A mislynch ends the game, and I promise you, the only thing I care about now is figuring out who the most probable Scum are, getting the closest to majority agreement possible about those picks (so it doesn't matter -who- the Scum kill at night), and attempting to win the game with the best odds possible.  'If I like someone or not' or 'If I like someone's behavior or not' - there's no room for any 'threats', involving votes at least.  And if we can't get majority agreement on who's Scum and who's Town - Town is sunk.

When you say "It seems like no one has really challenged you a whole lot", what sort of challenge do you mean?  That I've not been adequately questioned and discussed with so attempts can be made to judge my reasoning, motives, and intentions?  That I've not been put under much pressure this game?  That I've mostly been left alone to do as I please?

Quote from: Squill on November 04, 2013, 09:33:49 pm

Now that more people are active, though, I am feeling a bit better about this.

Me too.  I think we're going to need all 5 of us to get through this.

Quote from: Squill on November 04, 2013, 09:33:49 pm

I can't make an incredibly accurate list of my scum/town picks, because I have a tendency to change them.

That's fine.  I just would like you to keep us posted on when and why they're changing, what you noticed or realized or whatever caused the shift.  Even if you're the sort of player who has mood shifts and your evaluation changes whenever your moods change, not because understanding or reality has changed, your patterns of thought as a player are useful in attempting to determine your intentions.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 3 -
Post by: Squill on November 05, 2013, 11:16:47 am

Quote from: Imp on November 05, 2013, 08:00:41 am

Squill:

Veiled threats, the sort that you see in my writing, do you believe those are exclusively Pro-Town behavior, Anti-Town behavior, or a mixture of both?  If it's a mixture, what's the ratio approximately seem to be?

A factor that affects now, which didn't before (in case you see me as a bully or whatever else bad, be I Town or not) - we have no room for a mislynch.

I think veiled threats might have been a poor choice of words, but I think you get what I mean. I think that you're the most aggressive player in the game, which is both good and bad. Good because it probably puts pressure on scum, but bad because it intimidates people from voting on you, out of fear that you, as an aggressive player, will turn on them. This is not to say that you are definitely or even probably scum, it's just to say that no one has seriously scumhunted against you yet. So I want to ask you: Do you think that there can be a thing as too aggressive in this game? Do you think that it is possible that, by being very aggressive, to deflect scrutiny by means of intimidation?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 3 -
Post by: Imp on November 05, 2013, 04:59:00 pm

pfp - Zombie, we need prod for bsnott please.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 3 -
Post by: bsnott on November 05, 2013, 07:10:59 pm

Quote from: Squill on November 04, 2013, 09:33:49 pm

1. bsnott: My main problem is that I really have nowhere to go with him. Mr. Zero was fairly quiet and had a strange vendetta against SBC, but other than that I really have nothing. @bsnott: How do you think that you can affect this game? Do you believe that you will play, or just fall into silence? I am going to vote on you until you give some answers.

I know exactly how I can affect this game. We're in lylo right now, and that means that every vote counts for a win. I haven't been to active lately, I know this. In all honesty, I've been playing GTA V, so I do suppose I'm being lazy. So far in my playing of Mafia I've come to understand two things. This is a game about convincing others of things. The second thing I've gotten is that you need to be able to back up what you are trying to convince of people.

Let's just take a look at this. If I happened to be scum, I'd need to convince others to vote with me and try to pick out the highest value targets out of the crowd, while attempting to keep my partner up. I'd need to try not to lurk too much, but not get so far involved in conversation that something I said was taken the wrong way, which would end up in my demise.

If I happened to be a townie, I'd be horribly misinformed. I'd be sitting in a dark room with screaming faces. I can choose to get involved in the conversation, seeing how much my word counted in regards to the rest of the players. I'd need to somehow convince other players about my status as townie, and only hope that they don't think I'm trying to psychologically undermine the team. I want the win just as much as any of you.

Basically, what I need to do right now is prove myself to you guys. I'm not sure exactly how you guys have gotten that I have been acting scummy. Then again, I am a horrible scumhunter, so it is probably something far deeper than my knowledge can reach. How can I prove myself to any of you?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 3 -
Post by: Imp on November 05, 2013, 07:25:15 pm

bsnott:

Don't forget we need you.  There's only 5 of us - we need every one of us that happens to be here in Lylo, originals and replaces.  Do play your other game, but also check in with us please, an absolute minimum of once a day - and that's after you've caught up.  Until you are caught up, we need you to also get caught up on the thread, please.

How much of the thread have you read so far?

How well do you feel you understand of what you have read?

If you haven't read it all/most of it, how willing are you to read more?

Once you have read most of it, are you willing to try to analyze what you have read and attempt to rank players (excluding yourself) in terms of their probability of being Scum in your opinion?

You may well find in the process of doing what I ask above that you do have questions to ask.  You may also find that the process of forming and sharing your opinions helps others form and share their opinions of you.

Quote from: bsnott on November 05, 2013, 07:10:59 pm

How can I prove myself to any of you?

That's only partially your job to do.  It is also partially our job to do/help you do/hinder your doing.  I have an answer to your question, but I also have a reason for not discussing it yet.  I need Tiruin's answer first.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 3 -
Post by: bsnott on November 05, 2013, 08:50:09 pm

I'll get to reading that right now.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 3 -
Post by: Tiruin on November 05, 2013, 09:12:27 pm

Response coming in ~8 hours at worst. ~4 hours at best. Give or take an hour or so.  :-[

---

Quote from: Imp on November 05, 2013, 07:25:15 pm

[...]I need Tiruin's answer first.

{If said answer towards bsnott's query can be given, and if it doesn't factor in to what kind of response on what your target would say, give it in advance or give partial details so to continue the train of thought others are giving you...unless that is their only question.

Sorry for late response!}

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 3 -
Post by: Imp on November 05, 2013, 09:18:39 pm

Quote from: bsnott on November 05, 2013, 08:50:09 pm

I'll get to reading that right now.

Thank you, hugely.  You are one of us and we need you.  Even though you were not here at the start, you're here now and we can only go forward, not back - but we need you to have that history, so we're not blank nothings to you.  The players that were replaced are gone - but their roles were here and played.  Therein are clues.  We need your ideas and observations too.

Quote from: Tiruin on November 05, 2013, 09:12:27 pm

Response coming in ~8 hours at worst. ~4 hours at best. Give or take an hour or so.  :-[

Totally acceptable, to me at least.  If you even need longer than that, you have it.  Long as its coming.  You're one of us, and we need you.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 3 -
Post by: Tiruin on November 05, 2013, 09:25:19 pm

Quote from: Imp on November 05, 2013, 09:18:39 pm

Quote from: Tiruin on November 05, 2013, 09:12:27 pm

Response coming in ~8 hours at worst. ~4 hours at best. Give or take an hour or so.  :-[

Totally acceptable, to me at least.  If you even need longer than that, you have it.  Long as its coming.  You're one of us, and we need you.

Yeah, I'm actually having fun here with you guys..and am really shamed on my lacking ability to perform due to hindrances. >.<
And thanks. Will divide and link via spoiler and url.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 3
Post by: zombie urist on November 05, 2013, 10:13:00 pm

Day ends Monday November 11th 9PM PST.

Imp -
squill -
bsnott - squill
Pufferfish - Tiruin
Tiruin -

Not voting - bsnott, Pufferfish, Imp

0 to extend, 2 needed
0 to shorten, 3 needed

Make use of your extensions.  :)

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 2 Robot, You - ONE REPLACEMENT NEEDED!
Post by: Gentlefish on November 06, 2013, 12:43:45 am

@Imp:

Your first vote for RPG. You sorta just toss your vote here.

Quote from: Imp on October 15, 2013, 01:49:17 am

Rolepgeek, I've got this vote and no better use for it right now.  If you're dead there's no need to replace your spot; and from close to start of play you've not really done much that seems pro-Town to me.  Your behavior isn't that bad of a Scum cover either.  I'm far from sure you're Scum but I'm far from sure you're Town either, so for the moment this works for me.  As long as you're seeking replacement I'm not going to ask you anything.

Then DeathSword posts. Saying you're dropping a vote on someone asking for a replacement. Which is weird, for me at least, as someone new to the game.

Quote from: Deathsword on October 15, 2013, 12:34:23 pm

Imp: If you got nothing better to do with your vote, as you claim here:

Quote from: Imp on October 15, 2013, 01:49:17 am

Rolepgeek, I've got this vote and no better use for it right now.  If you're dead there's no need to replace your spot; and from close to start of play you've not really done much that seems pro-Town to me.  Your behavior isn't that bad of a Scum cover either.  I'm far from sure you're Scum but I'm far from sure you're Town either, so for the moment this works for me.  As long as you're seeking replacement I'm not going to ask you anything.

Then why not use it to pressure someone who can actually answer you? It seems as if you want to vote someone but don't really care who, and Rolepgeek provides a nice, safe target.

RPG then replies, agreeing with DeathSword that, yes, it's a vote on someone asking for a replacement.

Quote from: Rolepgeek on October 15, 2013, 09:58:30 pm

Quote from: Imp on October 15, 2013, 01:49:17 am

Rolepgeek, I've got this vote and no better use for it right now.  If you're dead there's no need to replace your spot; and from close to start of play you've not really done much that seems pro-Town to me.  Your behavior isn't that bad of a Scum cover either.  I'm far from sure you're Scum but I'm far from sure you're Town either, so for the moment this works for me.  As long as you're seeking replacement I'm not going to ask you anything.

That's an extremely poor idea. Until I'm replaced, I am going to continue to play to the best of my ability. You shouldn't vote someone based on 'meh, nothing better to do'. Vote someone for pressure, for RVS, or to get them lynched. It's not RVS anymore, it's not pressure since you aren't going to ask me anything, which means all that's left is lynch votes. But you aren't sure I'm scum. So why vote me? There's no point to it.

I don't see Deathsword defending RPG, I see him questioning why you're voting to lynch someone who's asking for a replacement. RPG does put up good points on why you're voting him. You state that you aren't going to ask him questions, meaning you aren't looking to actually check if he's scum. For someone who's so set on scumhunting, that's a pretty odd move.

Moving on.

In this topic:

Quote from: Imp on October 16, 2013, 06:46:14 am

words.

You call Deathsword out on coddling players in one game and not giving this game much attention. This is true.

...Though you did try to call him out on being sick. Which is possible and highly likely this time of year. My partner was sick with various different bugs for three months straight last fall/winter. You try to call him out in his IC brackets when I believe the person behind the computer was legitimately ill.

You also call him "an IC jerk" for calling you out on a vote that you placed on someone calling for a replacement. Sounds a little OMGUS-y to me.

And then:

Quote

Quote from: Deathsword on October 15, 2013, 09:34:23 am

    Imp: If you got nothing better to do with your vote, as you claim here:
    Quote from: Imp on October 14, 2013, 10:49:17 pm

        Rolepgeek, I've got this vote and no better use for it right now.  If you're dead there's no need to replace your spot; and from close to start of play you've not really done much that seems pro-Town to me.  Your behavior isn't that bad of a Scum cover either.  I'm far from sure you're Scum but I'm far from sure you're Town either, so for the moment this works for me.  As long as you're seeking replacement I'm not going to ask you anything.

    Then why not use it to pressure someone who can actually answer you? It seems as if you want to vote someone but don't really care who, and Rolepgeek provides a nice, safe target.


The only way you can make that claim about how I use my vote, and how I use pressure, is to disregard how I have played this game so far.  Considering how -you- have played this game so far, I'm not surprised at you at all.

You did not plan on pressuring RPG. You stated earlier you were going to vote for him and not ask him any questions.

Speaking of, you then start into RPG, claiming his activity elsewhere in the forums over this one game, which he said he asked for a replacement for, shows scumminess and unwillingness to post. Could it possibly be he maybe had priorities over this single game?

Deathsword posts.

Quote from: Deathsword on October 16, 2013, 09:31:39 am

((Imp Quoted, right to lurk))
I am not, and at no point have I ever stated this. To the point I actually apologized for my low activity. How in any way is that acting as if I had a right to lurk?

((Imp Quoted, talking about how his advice is across the board don't talk about NK.))
{I stand by my advice that speculating about the night is useless to either town or scum. You have the right to disagree. I fully believe in what I said about it, both as scum and as town. There are others who disagree, and like doing that. It is their call. Being a scum IC is actually pretty easy, as you do not have to think as a player, you do not have to scumhunt}

((Imp Quoted, talk about health))
I do not like to give much details about my personal life, but I'll say this: my health is complete and utter shit. I get sick quite frequently, whenever the air gets somewhat dry it feels as if my nose if trying to rip itself from the rest of my face and I've had to do two complete lung collapses (for absolutely no reason either) in the same year. When I say I am unable to post, it's because I really am, especially where my health is concerned.


((Imp Quoted, IC voice distrust)
Being a scum IC is actually pretty easy, as you do not have to think as a player, you do not have to scumhunt.

((Imp Quoted, about vote pressure. "you IC jerk"))
Rolepgeek asked to replace. When someone asks for that, it usually means they stop posting. You yourself said you voted him because you had nothing else to do with said vote. Now you talk about your previous play, but it is this very same previous play that makes your disregard as to where your vote goes more glaring. Is the vote yours to use as you see fit? Yes. It still does not exempt you from being called out on it.

You then honestly wish him well and drop the subject of health.

Your post:

Quote from: Imp on October 16, 2013, 04:55:38 pm

Deathsword - Hope you feel better soon.

Quote from: Deathsword on October 16, 2013, 09:31:39 am

Quote from: Imp on October 16, 2013, 06:46:14 am

You're acting like you have this 'right to lurk', and you absolutely don't.

I am not, and at no point have I ever stated this. To the point I actually apologized for my low activity. How in any way is that acting as if I had a right to lurk?

I'm not saying 'you say you have that right' -  I am saying 'you act as if you have that right' and I say it because you have been doing it.  This:

Quote from: Imp on October 16, 2013, 06:46:14 am

Quote from: Deathsword on October 15, 2013, 12:34:23 pm

I am sorry for disappearing for the last two D1 days

We don't need apologies from you.  If you're Town we need help.  If you're a rolemodel, Town or not, we need an example of good play, which you are NOT giving us.

All of last week you made 1 post - only one post (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4670881#msg4670881).  That post contained no scumhunting and outside of a small amount of IC advice.  Are you hiding -from yourself- with an apology for 'The last two days'?  No two days are an issue.  The whole kit and caboodle across the course of the game is the issue.  Get off your behind and work for this Town.  This Town can't afford to carry you and your behavior is directly or indirectly helping the Scum - and you lack the inexperience to not know this.  Fix it.

You try to call him out for not hunting in one post. Which is, to your true point, the only one made in a week. But most of that is an IC post, and the other bit is talking to you about time constraints.

A couple of your posts deal with other people for a little bit. Good playing happens.

Deathsword gets to responding. It takes a little bit, but he does get to it.

Quote from: Deathsword on October 18, 2013, 12:25:17 pm

Quote from: Imp on October 18, 2013, 01:39:48 am

Almost no focus on teaching as IC

Regarding this: as a whole, the remaining players here are doing pretty well, mechanics-wise. There is little at the moment that requires an IC explanation.

Quote from: Imp on October 18, 2013, 01:39:48 am

He sure doesn't seem to care about catching Scum or not though.

Well, I think you are scum, and am voting you over it.

Let me restate why: You just threw a vote on Rolepgeek because you could, because you had nothing better to do with it. In the quoted post you further list inactivity (which, I suppose, is a valid, if somewhat weak, reason) and a personal attack (IC stuff on this below). While the added reasons are nice, I am still concerned over the disregard over where your vote went, and, to be quite frank, I consider you to be, among the new players here, one of the most possibly dangerous if scum.

{On personal attacks: don't. Seriously, just don't. It adds nothing to the game, is of no benefit to anyone (town, scum, third-party) and can ruin the friendly (if agressive) nature of the game. What happens in the game stays in it, and you shouldn't hold a grudge or insult someone over it.}

Quote from: Imp on October 18, 2013, 01:39:48 am

If so, can you help me understand that things are going well, not terribly quiet, and why you think we're not going to a lurky town loss as is?

{BMs often tend to have periods of very low activity, especially as the game goes on. People often don't realise how long a mafia game can take.}

Extend

He votes extend. He tells you why he's voting for you, quoting you saying that he's not hunting when he's hunting you, as he says. Then goes IC to talk about personal attacks. Which is a good point. And also on the activity level of the game.

You then tell him, in a large WoT here:

Quote from: Imp on October 18, 2013, 01:53:19 pm

words.

Why you had reasons, and you link to:

Quote from: Imp on October 08, 2013, 11:37:48 pm

words.

which when I read it, I honestly read it as a large ad hominem attack.

You then list that you could have voted for "Rolepgeek, Deathsword, Darvi, Squill" and felt comfortable with it. Why not with someone who was around?

Then RPG replies here:

Quote from: Rolepgeek on October 18, 2013, 08:28:17 pm

words.

And the next post is your reply. I don't wanna parse these out but it's more back-and-forth, basically.

Then DS hops in.

Quote from: Deathsword on October 21, 2013, 11:41:21 am

Imp, what you are basically doing is trying to dominate the game with massive walls of text. Every time someone says something you disagree with, out comes the WoTs.

Quote from: Imp on October 19, 2013, 05:28:06 am

((The spoiler of all RPG's words of busy/absence))

Above, for example, you attempt to discredit rolepgeek by point out posts where he said he was busy/not paying attention. While that was certainly true, what makes you think he didn't do a full read of the thread before posting his own wall of text?


You talk a lot about personal attacks and how long it took me to react. You know why I took so long to "react"? Because I did not see it as a personal attack. He criticised your playstile, which apparently offended you, thus resulting in you calling it an attack on your person. Well, following that logic, all your allegations that I am a shitty player/IC are personal attacks as well.

You are trying to do a lot to discredit me, despite the fact that I've been trying to provide advice since the very start of the game. Darvi was gone for a full week, but you barely said anything about that, and when you did it was in a friendly tone. When it comes to me, out come the allegations of me being shit. SBC is gone too, not a single word was said by you about that. So is MrZero. So is Squill.

Your walls of text are smokescreens, for walls of text are indeed intimidating, and it discourages others to go through them and attempt to counter the arguments.

I am, of course, unfazed by such attempts of discredit. But it reeks of scum play, and for that my vote stays on you.

I believe he was Scumhunting you. Not defending RPG. Using your comments against RPG as evidence against you.

Another WoT from you:

Quote from: Imp on October 21, 2013, 07:38:21 pm

words.

You say you don't care about your WoT's even though they're frowned upon as a whole. (I says this as I write my own.) You say that DS was ascribing you a motive of trying to discredit RPG. You say "nope, he's doing that all by himself" in so many words.

He says he's read most of it, and you quote where he says he was too busy. Doesn't mean he didn't read the thread. He was too busy to post.

You then call his current style of looking for a replacement and trying to stay active garbage. And then you call DS garbage for his {IC} comment about personal attacks. Calling him scum while he scumhunts you. Again, sounds OMGUS-y to me.

You then say he's doing a fine job of discrediting himself through his actions. All of which I've seen as scumchecking you.

more "more activity plz". We do like activity in this game.

Then you say that DS's reasons to vote you are "you're active, verbose, and attacking me." then call him Scumsword. Honestly I can see why he didn't once waver.

I'll stop parsing here, where Tiruin posted the update and apologises for not prodding folk. I can go on if you really really want me to but it's honestly more of the same to me.

What I'm getting out of all of this is that RPG and you were at odds with each other and DeathSword was able to pick up enough evidence against you to have a solid argument for a vote.

And I'm picking it up too, I think.

So, Imp. About those questions I had? I don't see your honest evidence against RPG. At least, evidence to convince me that you had a solid case against him to vote him on D2 where you said you were going to drop your vote and leave it, and not even bother to ask him questions.

I am still holding off my vote for another few days because I need to hear from BSnott.

My list goes:
Imp - Now, because I can see the case built by Deathsword.
BSnott - Mr. Zero was reeaallll quiet during all of that.
Squill - You kept a steady, if slow post pace.
Tiruin - You picked up DS's place. DS had a hell of a solid case.

Imp:
Thanks for having me analyze DeathSword, too.

Now, question: What does your list look like right now?

Tiruin:
How do you feel about DeathSword's play as your previous roleholder? How much do you agree with how he handled the scumhunt against Imp?

Everyone else:
Now having a large part of D2 scumhunting lain out in front of you, how does it make you feel about the roles of Imp, RPG (me), and Deathsword (Tiruin)?

Woo, first WoT. I tried to be as concise as possible. There was just so. Much. Words.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 3 -
Post by: Tiruin on November 06, 2013, 12:52:04 am

Ooohhh man these posts D: Coming up!

Note ahead! {If you've a post which contains a lot of text and wish to only point out a minor part of it, or in the least, point out the post in turn, edit out all the words and append a "snip" on it to show the quote. Or use the spoiler button upon replying. It's...somewhat like a radioactive warning symbol for some reason.}

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 3 -
Post by: Imp on November 06, 2013, 03:42:57 am

Puff:

Thanks for making it clear you've closely read the D2 material, all of it or at least a great deal of it.  I believe it's vital for as many of us 5 to be working with the same dataset as is possible, and I believe that the data should be interpreted through as many player minds as is reasonable, so we can come to sensible conclusions.

I still elect to delay answering your questions and the post as a whole until I've received my answer from Tiruin, and I will explain why I delay after I receive it (it may require some back and forth between myself and Tiruin.  I will make it as fast as possible if so).  I did see her IC-voice recommendation not to do this, I still consider my reasons for as valid enough to continue to do so.

In this case I'm going to offer to delay my response to you for one other thing too - some observations and questions from me about yours - in case you'd like to react to mine or answer mine before I answer yours.  Feel free to say 'no' if you want me to answer you without your answers - I'm willing to - in that case my sole delay is waiting for my answers from Tiruin.

You have joined us quite recently; in a sense the only thing that may differentiate you from being a 'mostly impartial observer' about the events that occurred before you joined play is the role that you have (that role might bias your opinions, it also might motivate you towards certain goals).  Otherwise - you are highly impartial, right?  Or even tilted against Rolepgeek - I remember you saying this -

Quote from: Pufferfish on November 05, 2013, 03:52:28 am

I think I've got a fairly good grip on the matter, at least especially on how RPG was being a dill hole. I'd seriously almost call it a flame war. There wasn't any scumhunting there. On both sides, I really have to say. The votes there didn't have much weight for me when it came down to it. Going back through it I believe I've read the majority of this thread and I've got a general idea of where things stand.

So you should have a pretty fair and unbiased viewpoint, or even be tilted towards negative towards Rolepgeek.  That's important to take into account when considering your perspective and what you say.  Do you agree with my reasoning and my assessment of your viewpoint as a 'mostly impartial observer' as you read over the game's history?

Your new post about your observations (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4744388#msg4744388) of D2 play describe me as being challenged quite appropriately by both Deathsword and RPG who both put significant time and effort into Scumhunting me.  I note that you now reference RPG as "put[ting] up good points".   My response throughout D2 is described as being pretty unreasonable and pretty Scummy (you do not use those words, but they sum your description of my response up - do you agree?).

You even appear quite comfortable with interpreting my words to the point that you describe where I am honest and what I have not planned.  (It would be inappropriate for someone to ask you what Rolepgeek planned or if he was being honest about something he said because you are not him; you can guess but you cannot know, and the value of your guess is no better than any other player's - save that you know the role and alignment you have replaced into.)  I note that the interpretation you give to my 'plan', the intention you ascribe to me, is quite specific and not exactly unbiased.

So, having carefully read the sum total of the interactions between Deathsword, Rolepgeek, and myself, limited to D2, you describe my posts as being mostly inappropriate and very Scummy - and you do this as a mostly impartial observer who started the reading thinking that "RPG was being a dill hole" and "There wasn't any scumhunting there. On both sides, [you] really have to say" -- is this correct?

You really are comfortable with the interpretation you have placed for all four players to see - and with it what this interpretation may show about you and your motives and intentions?  You don't want to double check or correct anything you said, right - I should just respond and answer as you have already asked?


One last question I'd like to see if you'd like to answer before I properly respond to your post - and of course, feel free to decline if you see fit - Squill says that I've not been seriously scumhunted against yet.

Quote from: Squill on November 05, 2013, 11:16:47 am

... that no one has seriously scumhunted against you yet.

That seems to be a very different viewpoint than yours, in how you describe D2 interactions.  Do you agree with what Squill says about my having not been 'seriously Scumhunted against' yet?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 3 -
Post by: Squill on November 06, 2013, 04:56:09 pm

Just posting to say that I have a good bit of homework. I might not be able to do a fully-fledged post.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 3
Post by: zombie urist on November 07, 2013, 12:55:35 am

Day ends Monday November 11th 9PM PST.

Imp -
squill -
bsnott - squill
Pufferfish - Tiruin
Tiruin -

Not voting - bsnott, Pufferfish, Imp

0 to extend, 2 needed
0 to shorten, 3 needed

Play more mafia.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 3 -
Post by: Imp on November 07, 2013, 02:21:26 pm

bsnott:

Quote from: bsnott on November 05, 2013, 08:50:09 pm

I'll get to reading that right now.

How goes this plan?  How far are you along?  How well do you feel you understand what has happened?  How much more are you willing to read?  Do you know how much time you expect to need to finish?

Please plan on posting a minimum of once a day, even if you have no idea what to say.  For now, reporting progress on the read through is adequate to me - as you read questions may occur to you too, or there may be things you wish to comment about.

... and please don't forget that we need you.  I believe Scum can win without you, but not Town.

Tiruin:

Quote from: Tiruin on November 06, 2013, 12:52:04 am

Ooohhh man these posts D: Coming up!

My breath is bated, my eyes wide, and my hopes gutter, barely more than embers.

You have time, and yes you do, and yes you need.  And other things you do with what free time you have are also urgent.  If you have a mostly finished response, do you think your purposes would be served by posting said unfinished thing, for its consideration as is - or are your purposes best served by fully finishing it, however long that requires?

Puff:

Quote

   

From you this time, silence is an answer, not a non-answer, correct?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 3 -
Post by: Tiruin on November 07, 2013, 03:47:10 pm

Quote from: Imp on November 07, 2013, 02:21:26 pm

your purposes best served by fully finishing it, however long that requires?

I was checking back on the other parts of this post, but..right. I do discover that our part is quite done.

---

---

---

---

---

Imp: Note that, before all else, I address your note of 'why I'm doing x'. This is because I don't actually care about being scummy or not-slip ups are made, and I'd argue that I would 'do' or the act would happen regardless of my alignment, but the case in point there

Quote from: From this point on

Your reasons almost perfectly mirror mine (said more briefly, of course) - and this is quite sensible - except your perspective is given from -then-.

Now seems like you're attacking me from a different point. Yeah, scummy. Alright. But I see inquisitiveness there. Are you weighing in the target's fate after a tangible offense in sight has been committed there?

I will address them in spoilers, each with their own category to your post. Case begins here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4740558#msg4740558), searchphrase: "I greet you"

Spoiler: Point 1: Time and posting//Extension (click to show/hide)

Quote

Lack of extension has NO pro-Town value under those circumstances, right?

Is the endline here.

Quote from: Imp on November 04, 2013, 02:41:00 pm

Tiruin, When you finally do post, you appear to ignore ALL of this, despite that you even quote some of the things I've said.

Yes. I did appear to ignore that, as I did read it, and put the notion aside as what I saw as your opinion and plan on the matter to come. In truth (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4716300#msg4716300), the problem with me skimming is that I usually tend to focus on parts which seem most apparent to me that could be questioned and rather less on the time remaining--I miss the time when I begin posting under pressure, given my timezone and all the conversion factors.

However I do note. I finally did post and..here, it seems you just poke on it. Nothing else on that matter?

---

Regarding the day/extension issue. The quote you got from me is true. I did not ask for an extension as I saw nobody else in favor of extending or forwarding it in bold (Especially the bolding part). I did see you speaking about the probability of an extension, however I saw nothing being bolded-showing that you would really want to extend before the time I had mentioned it (the quote referenced). (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4716300#msg4716300) The note on extensions are void in that matter as nobody - including myself and stated by you then - bolded the matter at hand. This (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4716508#msg4716508) is where the formal extension offer began.

Quote

Do NOT disregard it again, as you did repeatedly at the time you answered it.

I see aggression. Frustration. Something which is..genuine. However I must note that I did not ignore the question intentionally. If this (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4716519#msg4716519) was not a satisfactory response to that query, then I did not see anything of the note. I missed it, is all I can say in my defense otherwise, though I have to note that you say that I did such, multiple times. Though I have to prod this. Where did you ask this that I disregarded, repeatedly at that time? All my defense was at that time, related to me not thinking to put down an extend and get ready at the new day. Scummy? Yes, now that I see it. It is scummy, but I wonder on such a note as that, that you lack putting down how this relates being 'scummy' to "being scum". My only defense to the extension fiasco is that I had not thought about bolding an extend despite my mental state at the time due to seeing..nobody else doing so. Yes, people have been discussing an extend, however it was never bolded. I also doubted that 3 people would extend at the time given-and something I only noticed when you called the time left remaining. As an IC, this was a crucial error for me to not address directly--however I chose to play it as a player and take it all as blame on myself.

But backing up:

Quote

Not seeking an extension at that time is PURELY pro-Scum, right?  Lack of extension has NO pro-Town value under those circumstances, right?

You're poking at extremes here. The generality agrees that not favoring an extension is scummy due to giving the target the lack of time, or cutting short the mode of communication in order to achieve a rational judgement, however the point in which I diverge from that statement in this quote is on one single reason.

The essence of where the vote lies at day end.

See the link we have there. At the time, you and I vote for Darvi. Seeing the total lack of note from him, I marked him as down and out and pondered on why he would do such things as scum--display of bad rolemodel, surely not. I thought of him as town and figured..well, it is reasonable, but the ground is shoddy all the same, favoring town more than scum. Despite such, I looked forward into the future and cast my dice, standing on the notion of 'a lynch is better than a no lynch'.

Why? Because whether townie or scum, it eliminates a person from the list of suspects. What I saw during that time was a muddled confusion on who was scummy to lynch and who was truly scum to be lynched. I couldn't make up my mind given that..shamefully, I did not fully re-read and chose to go where the votes would lie. Moments before that, you did vote Darvi. If I would vote anyone else, it would lead to a lynch. I could've left it to lie and the lynch would still be the same--however I chose to cast my vote.

On PURELY or NOT, I'd say it isn't an EXACT tell. A guide, pointer or marker, but not an exact.

Now we head to spoiler 2.

Spoiler: Point 2: Lynching Darvi or the black kitty (click to show/hide)

Alright, to be honest, the comparing and proceeding details on how you think I voted is...questionable. Where are you seeing all that? I may have missed it. This (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4716519#msg4716519) was the votecount I based it on, and your vote here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4715858#msg4715858) denounces everything else you said there. My (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4716300#msg4716300) posts (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4716486#msg4716486) proceeding (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4716519#msg4716519) mention nothing on your basis there. The 3 tables of votecounts? That.

It (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4716611#msg4716611) shifts soon after.

Or perhaps you base those tables on what I'm saying now on Rolepgeek? As stated before, I had not read that much on everyone, and would decide to go with the one the majority follows-hence why I asked why you unvoted Darvi after you voted him. I did note why I chose to lynch instead of no lynch. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4716707#msg4716707)

...Imp. I've to cut the spoilers short, but that is as far as I go until I see a flaw in your note here. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4740558#msg4740558) It appears to me that you discarded your own vote on Darvi when putting up those tables, and...somehow backed up the suspicion on me from that point. What (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4716603#msg4716603) did you see Darvi as, at that time?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 3 -
Post by: Squill on November 07, 2013, 09:27:57 pm

Quote from: Tiruin on November 07, 2013, 03:47:10 pm

-snip-

@Imp: I am not quite sure I follow. What was so imperative(heh) about this question/answer that you needed to put several other things on hold until Tiruin replied? It doesn't make a lot of sense to me, could you clarify?
@Tiruin: Do you understand why Imp wanted this answered so badly?
@Bsnott: Still waiting for an answer to  my question (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4741529#msg4741529),  but if you're still catching up then there's no need to rush. But if I could get a confirmation that you're still here, that'd be great.
@Pufferfish: What do you think about the current relationships between players?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 3
Post by: zombie urist on November 07, 2013, 10:32:21 pm

Day ends Monday November 11th 9PM PST.

Imp -
squill -
bsnott - squill
Pufferfish - Tiruin
Tiruin -

Not voting - bsnott, Pufferfish, Imp

0 to extend, 2 needed
0 to shorten, 3 needed

Play more mafia.

bsnott and Pufferfish have been prodded.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 3 -
Post by: Gentlefish on November 08, 2013, 12:52:27 am

Whee sorry folks I shoulda said something but, ah, post coming either later tonight or tomorrow.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 3 -
Post by: Tiruin on November 08, 2013, 01:44:05 am

Quote from: Squill on November 07, 2013, 09:27:57 pm

@Tiruin: Do you understand why Imp wanted this answered so badly?

I could say I understand, but how the depth of my understanding is caught in the mix of trying to figure her standpoint. I could say that, yes, I understand it, and that if I follow my intuition over my reasoning I could see her approaching the existing cases with Rationalism (Defensive Mechanism), but in doing that, it would only fall short in trying to mention how far my suspicion goes. Yes, she gives space for the person to explain him/herself, but where I get the suspicion from is where she made her point.

The quote I have and answered from her covers the recent acts of D2, on which I am ready to expound given her reply soon enough, as well as my take on DS' case.

Currently checking back on you people-Squill, bsnott and puffypuff! (..Sorry for that Puff..It's just the semantics playing with me again.)

Unvote

{Note ahead: In real games, it pays to check and counter check posts and words. Not only does it help your verbal acuity but IRL it aids your detection of minor matters and in catching hints that you wouldn't see before! Keep on checking back, even on someone you see as all clear, until you're reasonably sure to yourself that said person is all clear.}

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 3
Post by: zombie urist on November 09, 2013, 12:40:20 am

Day ends Monday November 11th 9PM PST.

Imp -
squill -
bsnott - squill
Pufferfish -
Tiruin -

Not voting - bsnott, Pufferfish, Imp, Tiruin

0 to extend, 2 needed
0 to shorten, 3 needed

Play more mafia.

bsnott has been double prodded.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 3 -
Post by: Gentlefish on November 09, 2013, 03:33:55 am

@Imp:

Quote from: Imp on November 06, 2013, 03:42:57 am

Puff:
-snip-
... Otherwise - you are highly impartial, right?  Or even tilted against Rolepgeek...

Oh yeah coming in I saw at him as being rude. I'm not changing my mind on that. It's deathsword deathsword. His argument is the one I'm starting to stand by.

Quote

Do you agree with my reasoning and my assessment of your viewpoint as a 'mostly impartial observer' as you read over the game's history?

My response throughout D2 is described as being pretty unreasonable and pretty Scummy (you do not use those words, but they sum your description of my response up - do you agree?).

I do not understand why I would not be impartial to a viewpoint in a game where logic and reasoning are key in victory.

I agree. The clincher was that you threw a vote at someone and stated while doing so that you were not going to question them. You ended up pressuring, but that's due to other causes. You intent was not pressure with the vote.

As to if I should doublecheck, if I have made an error in words, whether through structure or typos, I apologize, otherwise I do not know what you are asking about. I see Deathsword's case against you, and I agree with it.

Quote

So, having carefully read the sum total of the interactions between Deathsword, Rolepgeek, and myself, limited to D2, you describe my posts as being mostly inappropriate and very Scummy - and you do this as a mostly impartial observer who started the reading thinking that "RPG was being a dill hole" and "There wasn't any scumhunting there. On both sides, [you] really have to say" -- is this correct?

You really are comfortable with the interpretation you have placed for all four players to see - and with it what this interpretation may show about you and your motives and intentions?  You don't want to double check or correct anything you said, right - I should just respond and answer as you have already asked?

Between you and RPG? No scumhunting. Between DS and you? He was investigating you. Absolutely. I stand by this conviction.

Quote

One last question I'd like to see if you'd like to answer before I properly respond to your post - and of course, feel free to decline if you see fit - Squill says that I've not been seriously scumhunted against yet.

Quote from: Squill on November 05, 2013, 11:16:47 am

... that no one has seriously scumhunted against you yet.

That seems to be a very different viewpoint than yours, in how you describe D2 interactions.  Do you agree with what Squill says about my having not been 'seriously Scumhunted against' yet?

Yes. You have been scumhunted, but it took the sideline between you and RPG. I honestly almost missed it had I not been going post by post. Seriously scumhunted? He was serious about the hunt.

So yes, please answer my questions.

Tiruin:

Puffypuff is acceptable :P Like I said, anything goes.

@All:

Still need your answers folk :)

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 3 -
Post by: Gentlefish on November 09, 2013, 03:46:54 am

Quote from: Squill on November 07, 2013, 09:27:57 pm

-snip-
@Pufferfish: What do you think about the current relationships between players?

I think that, as imp said, we are at an interesting position in the game. The ties between players is... tenuous at best. All of the votes have been cleared off the table. Well... Most of the votes. And we're starting to re-establish who is what, what is the gap in play and now the turmoil of arguments when it comes to who's scum and town.

Seeing as the day ends monday, unless we come to a decision over the weekend, ((unlikely)), I will be posting and extend vote on monday if it comes down to the bare wires.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 3 -
Post by: Imp on November 09, 2013, 04:54:36 am

Tiruin:

Maybe we're confusing each other.  Lets try again.

You are confused by my tables of votecount?

I created them trying to understand what you thought the votecount was when you voted (and when you explained your vote later).

Quote from: Tiruin on November 07, 2013, 03:47:10 pm

Or perhaps you base those tables on what I'm saying now on Rolepgeek?

Absolutely not.  I am asking about what you thought then - because only that can explain what you said then.

I made those tables to compare reality, as of when you joined the thread, as of when you voted, and to match what you said in your explanation of why you voted.  If one of them looks like I'm disregarding my own vote - I am - because your explanation of who you considered 'up for lynch' disregards my vote.  If those tables look crazy to you - it's because I made them trying to illustrated and get you to clear up what looks crazy to me.

I think what you said when you explained your vote doesn't make any sense - unless you were really confused about what the votecount was (or maybe I'm confused about the votecount - but I really don't think so).

So I'm going to just ask you, "explain what you thought the votecount was, and then we continue from there, alright?"  Because that's a large part of my major suspicion of you, personally, this game.  I think what you said about your choices for your vote doesn't make sense.

Maybe you were confused, maybe we were both confused, or maybe you were being maliciously manipulative.  That third one's what I'm worried about, so lets get it straightened out.

Also, are you aware that some of the facts you explain don't match the records?  Stuff like that really bugs me, because it feels like lies.

I bold and number things that are incorrect.

Quote from: Tiruin on November 07, 2013, 03:47:10 pm

The essence of where the vote lies at day end.

See the link we have there. 1  At the time, you and I vote for Darvi. Seeing the total lack of note from him, I marked him as down and out and pondered on why he would do such things as scum--display of bad rolemodel, surely not. I thought of him as town and figured..well, it is reasonable, but the ground is shoddy all the same, favoring town more than scum. Despite such, I looked forward into the future and cast my dice, standing on the notion of 'a lynch is better than a no lynch'.

Why? Because whether townie or scum, it eliminates a person from the list of suspects. What I saw during that time was a muddled confusion on who was scummy to lynch and who was truly scum to be lynched. I couldn't make up my mind given that..shamefully, I did not fully re-read and chose to go where the votes would lie. 2  Moments before that, you did vote Darvi. 3  If I would vote anyone else, it would lead to a lynch. I could've left it to lie and the lynch would still be the same--however I chose to cast my vote.

1)  You and I did not vote for Darvi at the same time, or even close.
2)  I did not vote for Darvi moments before you did.  I voted for Darvi more than 5 hours before you did.
3)  When you discuss who you might vote for, you discuss only Darvi and Superblackcat.  If you had actually voted for Superblackcat, you would have created a tie.  Anyone else you had voted for would have had just one vote on them - Darvi would have two votes.  But I had switched to Darvi as a compromise, from my vote on Rolepgeek - Do you claim to have missed this?  Do you claim to be unaware that if you had voted for Superblackcat you would have created a tie?

You explain your vote, with minutes left on the clock:

Quote from: Tiruin on October 25, 2013, 10:51:13 pm

At first glance-yea, it may seem like a bandwagon, and yea, it may also seem like its an easy-lynch move. I compared between the people going up for a lynch--SBC, IMO, isn't playing like naughty scummy scum is doing. He's being the newbie card role-distinct in my eye due to his wording. Comparing his early posts (in which I have lacking time to link and can only thank my typing speed for all this), he doesn't have that scummy vibe coming off him.

As for Darvi...I'm pretty unsure. While him and his predecessor, sans being an IC, have come off generally squeaky-I can not tell if the squeaky squeaks scum or town- the tells beyond him are generally vague, and despite his inconsistency (...I'm unsure but Darvi has a record, IMO, of net troubles[?]), I've found his posts mostly reasonable.

Compared to SBC--I'd like to give the little kitty a chance at this, despite recent behavior, and I would really much like Rolepgeek who is voting while in replacement to expound on his reason on SBC, as well as links to it.

To say bluntly, I'd rather have a lynch go off instead of a non-lynch. Reason being, a no-lynch at this kind of scenario (vague future) does not benefit the town at all. It gives a free night--sure, if we have an inspector (which should not be relied on-both in the BM setup or in any game setup), this would probably benefit--but in general cases, a lynch aids in focusing the angle of view. Lesser suspects.

You sound like you think SBC was up for lynch (he is not, your vote for him would have created a tie unless someone else changes their vote), and IF you thought Rolepgeek was lynchable, you dismiss that with a single question towards him.

Were you unaware that I'd switched to Darvi as a compromise vote as day end neared and there'd been no activity from anyone but myself and the mod in about 17 hours?

Quote from: Tiruin on November 07, 2013, 03:47:10 pm

Alright, to be honest, the comparing and proceeding details on how you think I voted is...questionable. Where are you seeing all that? I may have missed it. This (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4716519#msg4716519) was the votecount I based it on

That link goes to your post, where you say

Quote from: Tiruin on October 25, 2013, 09:26:00 pm

Yeah. I di-
...Well, I did think of it, but then seeing that there was no extension at that time (which I missed now that I see it) I would extend.

...I had thought that nobody was into extending it -I looked at ZU's votecount at the time.

So you say you looked at the vote count for extensions, and I assume you also looked at the votecount for votes.  Thus you HAD to know that I'd voted for Rolepgeek, and that I'd recently switched to Darvi - or you HAD to have thought that Rolepgeek had one vote still.

But you never discuss Rolepgeek as being up for the lynch.  You discuss creating a tie (as if you have no idea it would create a tie - that supports that you didn't see my vote for Darvi at the time), but your post totally fails to consider lynching Rolepgeek - not even to say why you wouldn't consider it.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 3 -
Post by: Imp on November 09, 2013, 06:32:02 am

Quote from: Pufferfish on November 06, 2013, 12:43:45 am

@Imp:

Your first vote for RPG. You sorta just toss your vote here.

I'll write that interpretation off as a misunderstanding, rather than malicious intent.

When I say "I have no better use for my vote", I am -not- saying 'My vote doesn't have any use' or 'My vote's not doing anything so I'll go waste it'.

What is the best use for your vote - it's voting for the Scummiest person around.  He's not the only Scummy person in the game to me, and he might not stay the one I'm most suspicious of - but he was the top then.

Does that make "I've got this vote and no better use for it right now." easier to understand?  Yes, I did intentionally word my vote placement provocatively.  I was -trying- to evoke a response.

Why don't I just ask him questions?  You say you read the thread, especially his posts.  Look again at his previous posts before D2 starts.  Where he is answering questions, those answers are almost all either excuses why he cannot answer, claims (not followed through) that he will soon answer, or are statements that fail to answer the question that was asked.

Spoiler: Why did Imp stop asking Rolepgeek questions?  Look at these 'answers' (click to show/hide)

Quote from: Rolepgeek on October 09, 2013, 09:59:09 pm

To answer the questions directed at me real quick, though:

Top Towns and FoSs were, like I said, preliminary. I had said Mr. Zero because at the time I thought I'd spotted a post he'd made that had raised my hackles, but I can't find it now. And I can't get a good FoS anymore because of what I said above. I can't actually READ the posts in the right way. I'm not making connections and piecing it together in my head, probably because I was gone for so long

Quote from: Rolepgeek on October 09, 2013, 09:59:09 pm

Quote from: Imp on October 08, 2013, 04:29:47 am

Quote from: Rolepgeek on October 07, 2013, 10:57:49 pm

Huh. Thought there'd be more questions.

[Rolepgeek:  Why?  You think anyone else really wants to talk to your attitude, or because of it, you?[/size]

No. I thought there'd be more questions because I figured people would rag on me more for not being active enough.

He answers one question, and poorly.  He ignores the other.  It was NOT rhetorical.

Quote from: Rolepgeek on October 09, 2013, 09:59:09 pm

Quote from: Imp on October 08, 2013, 04:29:47 am

Quote from: Rolepgeek on October 07, 2013, 10:57:49 pm

Oh, and it got me pissed off as a player(OOC, so to speak) about how he was talking to Lukeinator. HEY IMP; don't tell people not to play the fucking game because you think they're playing badly. That's the point of a goddamn beginner's mafia.

Rolepgeek:  I quoted the OP and then applied portions of it that were being ignored by that player with pressure.  First time that's been done in a Mafia game, to your knowledge?

It was in your behemoth. The part dedicated to Luke. Where you were calling him childish, or implying it at the very least? Saying he shouldn't play until he's more mature? That is what I disliked. That is what I was calling you out on. Not the suggestion to ask for a replacement if he can't play.

Note that he 'appears' to answer.  But that answer does NOT answer the question.  Nor does he answer the question further on.

Post before that:

Quote from: Rolepgeek on October 08, 2013, 10:04:36 pm

Posting to show I'm not ignoring this. Put it off too long to be able to post it tonight, but I've got the post saved on my computer. Will finish it and post it tomorrow. It has all my answers and such, and more.

It has all his answers... which are mostly explanations of why he can't answer.  Why he couldn't back up his FOS and Town picks.  How he can't even read the thread right, can't find what he thought he saw before. 

Post before that:

Quote from: Rolepgeek on October 08, 2013, 10:04:36 pm

Posting to show I'm not ignoring this. Put it off too long to be able to post it tonight, but I've got the post saved on my computer. Will finish it and post it tomorrow. It has all my answers and such, and more.

And more of the same - but he makes it clear he WANTS questions about his lurking.  There's not much effective Scumhunting to be done in challenging someone over lurking.  There's very few thoughts about the game shown in that line of questioning.  That could explain why he's eager for it - and he talks about wanting to be questioned about lurking in two different posts -

Quote from: Rolepgeek on October 07, 2013, 10:57:49 pm

Quote

@Imp, reply #209, Questions about my incessant lurking

YES THANK YOU SO MUCH

Quote from: Rolepgeek on October 09, 2013, 09:59:09 pm

No. I thought there'd be more questions because I figured people would rag on me more for not being active enough.

So when Rolepgeek wasn't lurking, he wanted to talk about his lurking?  Useless for finding Scum on either side.

So if the guy can't or won't answer questions, no matter why he can't or won't - why should I ask them?  There's more than one way to attempt to get a response from someone, and I try another method.  I invite interaction in a indirect fashion calculated to attempt to provoke it through any of several means.

Heck, for that matter this was already all explained in the thread, in D2 which you read so carefully, but so not impartially:

Quote from: Imp on October 19, 2013, 05:28:06 am

Quote from: Rolepgeek on October 18, 2013, 08:28:17 pm

Quote from: Imp on October 16, 2013, 06:46:14 am

Right now it seems pointless to question you - you're claiming you can't even read the thread.

Oh, I've read most of it. That's not the problem.

I understood you were not reading the thread (staring at it sometimes, yes, but NOT reading it) because you said so, and then gave no indication until your most recent post that this had changed.

Spoiler: Wherein Rolepgeek repeatedly makes Imp think that RPG isn't following/reading/understanding the thread (click to show/hide)

Quote from: Rolepgeek on October 07, 2013, 10:57:49 pm

Quote

@Superblackcat, reply #176, concerning my top scums and FoS.

I'll get back to you. I need to look through the posts, and badly. Harass me if I don't get back to this.

Quote

@Persus, reply #181, multiple questions; Opinion post-behemoth, Opinions about Imp's accusations, and Reasoning for not posting

About everything post behemoth, I can't say anything yet. I still need to sweep through and process everything.

Huh. Thought there'd be more questions. Time for the more detailed sweep and cursory thoughts to answer SBC and Persus.

Alright, now for the sweep.

Ffffuuuuuu-
Of course there's too many little things I want to dig at for me to get all of them. Figures.

Quote from: Rolepgeek on October 08, 2013, 10:04:36 pm

Posting to show I'm not ignoring this. Put it off too long to be able to post it tonight, but I've got the post saved on my computer. Will finish it and post it tomorrow. It has all my answers and such, and more.

Unless one of you knows how to copy/paste from it to my IPad, of course.

Quote from: Rolepgeek on October 09, 2013, 09:59:09 pm

No...no, no, shit, I can't do it. I can't get the time and I'm getting too emotional to play. Well, that, and I can't get into the right mindset. I can't look deeply into posts, all I can do is stare at them. It's frustrating. I'm gonna have to ask for a replacement, sorry guys. Should have done this a while ago. I'll still answer questions and such, I just...I can't work up the motivation. Sorry. Unvote.

I can't actually READ the posts in the right way.  I'm not making connections and piecing it together in my head, probably because I was gone for so long.

Quote from: Rolepgeek on October 10, 2013, 09:57:05 pm

I don't have school tomorrow. HOWEVER, turns out I don't have extra time to do stuff, because I still have to get up at the same time.

Sorry. >.> Not planned.

Additionally you've said this in answer to others' questions:

Quote from: Rolepgeek on October 07, 2013, 10:57:49 pm

I'll get back to you. I need to look through the posts, and badly. Harass me if I don't get back to this.

And then you asked for a replacement, though you said you'd still answer questions and such, then tried to do so in the same post, but you included  stuff like

Quote from: Rolepgeek on October 09, 2013, 09:59:09 pm

I had said Mr. Zero because at the time I thought I'd spotted a post he'd made that had raised my hackles, but I can't find it now
...
And nnnnnnn...superblackcat. Holy crap, I just realized. The post he had right before mine was the one I thought was Mr Zero's. Probably. I can't really tell, and I thought it had been on page 15.
...
continued tomorrow

And of course, it wasn't continued 'tomorrow', or even the day after.  So I really didn't think you were up to following the thread, playing here, or answering questions.  In fact, you still haven't really 'continued that'.  Since you now say that's changed, sure, I'll ask some more.  I do have plenty for you.

When I vote him I also say

Quote from: Imp on October 15, 2013, 01:49:17 am

If you're dead there's no need to replace your spot; and from close to start of play you've not really done much that seems pro-Town to me.  Your behavior isn't that bad of a Scum cover either.  I'm far from sure you're Scum but I'm far from sure you're Town either, so for the moment this works for me.  As long as you're seeking replacement I'm not going to ask you anything.

I explain then and there that I see him as probable Scum:  "from close to start of play you've not really done much that seems pro-Town to me.  Your behavior isn't that bad of a Scum cover either." 

I'm not convinced he's Scum, and I say so:  "I'm far from sure you're Scum but I'm far from sure you're Town either, so for the moment this works for me."

When I say - "As long as you're seeking replacement I'm not going to ask you anything."  Near as I can tell, his 'asking for replacement' = 'not focusing on the thread, not being 'able' to answer questions'.  If he can't or won't answer questions (sure, he says he will - but that alone doesn't answer them, and he hasn't been) then I'm not going to waste my time typing them.

As SOON as he makes it clear that he's actually paying attention and interacting, I start interacting with him.  I continue to match his tone and level of manners - I am NOT required to be polite to people who are impolite.  HE says I did worse to him than he did to me.  I don't see it that way at all.  I don't disagree with you about flame war - But I was trying to Scumhunt him.  I also talk about his anti-impness.  I ask for anyone else to handle Scumhunting where he's concerned - no one does.  I respond to this by doing the best I can to do that Scumhunting - Just because he's acting the way he is doesn't mean his role can be ignored - and if it is, and if he's Scum, then Town will lose.

Quote from: Pufferfish on November 06, 2013, 12:43:45 am

Then DeathSword posts. Saying you're dropping a vote on someone asking for a replacement. Which is weird, for me at least, as someone new to the game.

RPG then replies, agreeing with DeathSword that, yes, it's a vote on someone asking for a replacement.

Scum or Town can ask for a replacement.  Heck, RPG was asking for a replacement for around 3 weeks before you joined the game.  The game could have ended with him still seeking replacement - that's a loss for Town if he ISN'T voted should he be Scum - and with how he was unable to track the thread, that's -also- a serious liability for Town - not that I attack him on that angle.  But ignoring him was not an option.

Quote from: Pufferfish on November 06, 2013, 12:43:45 am

You state that you aren't going to ask him questions, meaning you aren't looking to actually check if he's scum. For someone who's so set on scumhunting, that's a pretty odd move.

False reasoning, as explained above.  I have accepted that he has been repeatedly failing to answer questions, at least well enough to function as satisfactory answers.  I am set on Scumhunting - I try another method and continue to adjust.

Quote from: Pufferfish on November 06, 2013, 12:43:45 am

You call Deathsword out on coddling players in one game and not giving this game much attention. This is true.

...Though you did try to call him out on being sick. Which is possible and highly likely this time of year. My partner was sick with various different bugs for three months straight last fall/winter. You try to call him out in his IC brackets when I believe the person behind the computer was legitimately ill.

Wrong, I do call him out on it - the last BM he played in, he WAS SCUM and acted extremely similarly to how he was playing here, including 'lurking because of illness'.  True or false - how do you scumhunt someone who isn't here?  You can't - and there he was in this game, doing it again.

Quote from: Pufferfish on November 06, 2013, 12:43:45 am

You also call him "an IC jerk" for calling you out on a vote that you placed on someone calling for a replacement. Sounds a little OMGUS-y to me.

Wrong.  I call him "an IC jerk" because he has used his IC voice for things which it was not intended to be used for - like excusing his absences.  The IC voice is to be used to teach us how to play from a completely impartial and trustable viewpoint - period.  Worse, in that BM game where he was Scum, he ALSO made inappropriate use of IC voice.  It's a pattern - and that time for sure he did it really inappropriately -  because he was Scum and his failure to participate adequately needed to be challenged to help identify him as such.

I establish this in the paragraph above where I call him an "IC jerk" - and so I can understand your interpretation of my use of "IC jerk" as

Quote from: Imp on October 16, 2013, 06:46:14 am

You're not really scumhunting with your vote on me, because you're not really working or thinking, you're either just randomly pushing - taking the easy out that you accuse me of - or you're actively trying to control how I use my vote.  Shame on you for either, you IC jerk.

meaning that he's an IC jerk because and only because of his vote.  But your interpretation is utterly incorrect.  He is an IC jerk because he has misused his IC voice, and the shame he should feel for being an abusive IC is far, far greater than the shame he should feel for lazy play or attempting to manipulate my use of my vote - but either is still shameful too.

Quote from: Pufferfish on November 06, 2013, 12:43:45 am

You did not plan on pressuring RPG.

Absolutely false.  Questions are not the only form of pressure there is.  Nor are they the only way to attempt to elicit answers.

Quote from: Pufferfish on November 06, 2013, 12:43:45 am

Speaking of, you then start into RPG, claiming his activity elsewhere in the forums over this one game, which he said he asked for a replacement for, shows scumminess and unwillingness to post. Could it possibly be he maybe had priorities over this single game?

Shame on you.  That's a quote from Day 1 - from before he was asking for replacement.

I ask him on Day 2 about his behavior from Day 1 - before he asked for a replacement.

He claims he'll play "to the best of his ability".  I challenge that "best of his ability" - it is a real issue, it's why I wasn't trying to question him, and your 'impartial' viewpoint apparently misses such things as

Quote from: Imp on October 16, 2013, 06:46:14 am

Right now it seems pointless to question you - you're claiming you can't even read the thread.

Quote from: Pufferfish on November 06, 2013, 12:43:45 am

You try to call him out for not hunting in one post. Which is, to your true point, the only one made in a week. But most of that is an IC post, and the other bit is talking to you about time constraints.

At this point, the game had gone on for about 3 weeks.  You're fine with him throwing away 1/3 of the game?  Goodie, and that's because he was doing so well the other 2/3rds, right?

Hogwash.  He wasn't, at all, and that's discussed here.

Quote from: Imp on October 18, 2013, 04:18:52 pm

As of right now, Deathsword's made 13 total posts in the game.  Rolepgeek has made 17.  In raw 'activity' measured by # of posts, Rolepgeek has indeed been more 'active' than Deathsword.

In terms of scumhunting (which is an activity I consider primary when I consider 'activity', not post count), Deathsword has made a total of 7/13 which contain at least a single sentence I can recognize as Scumhunting.  In some posts, it's literally a single sentence.

ICs are here to -play- as well as be an IC voice.  They can be Scum, and we have to determine this - in part by their behavior. Failure to Scumhunt is Scummy.  It's seriously Scummy - Scum have very few reasons to appear to Scumhunt - but the biggie is to fit in or get lynched.

Quote from: Pufferfish on November 06, 2013, 12:43:45 am

You then list that you could have voted for "Rolepgeek, Deathsword, Darvi, Squill" and felt comfortable with it. Why not with someone who was around?

Because Rolepgeek was the Scummiest of the four to me.  I was beginning to discuss a compromise vote at that point.

Asking for a replacement doesn't change your role, or render you harmless if you are Scum.  The next D is lylo, if we didn't lynch Scum.  No one was voting extension, so it's not like we can just delay and get a replacement and keep going - note I did offer to support an extension (and that the first time I voted to extend, rather than support extensions, that was the first extension that failed to pass).

Quote from: Pufferfish on November 06, 2013, 12:43:45 am

Then you say that DS's reasons to vote you are "you're active, verbose, and attacking me." then call him Scumsword. Honestly I can see why he didn't once waver.

Scumsword was the name he took for himself, when he was Scum IC for the BM prior to this one.

Quote from: Pufferfish on November 06, 2013, 12:43:45 am

Now, question: What does your list look like right now?

Town, myself, bsnott (for reasons I've explained.  We're going to be taking a closer look at those reasons really soon - I'm very interested in why -everyone- has appeared to ignore them so far.  I make some very strong claims about why I believe he is confirmed Town.  That's not something to ignore)

Scum:  Pufferfish. 

Still unsure about:  Tiruin, Squill.

Quote from: Pufferfish on November 09, 2013, 03:33:55 am

I do not understand why I would not be impartial to a viewpoint in a game where logic and reasoning are key in victory.

Me either - I don't understand why you would be.  But you appear to be heavily biased.

Quote from: Pufferfish on November 09, 2013, 03:33:55 am

I agree. The clincher was that you threw a vote at someone and stated while doing so that you were not going to question them. You ended up pressuring, but that's due to other causes. You intent was not pressure with the vote.

As to if I should doublecheck, if I have made an error in words, whether through structure or typos, I apologize, otherwise I do not know what you are asking about. I see Deathsword's case against you, and I agree with it.

Your clincher is at best a misinterpretation which leans heavily towards a negative bias.  You are absolutely incorrect about my intention in regards to my vote on Rolepgeek, and in disregarding -all- of the words I said as I made it.

Quote from: Imp on October 15, 2013, 01:49:17 am

Rolepgeek, I've got this vote and no better use for it right now.  If you're dead there's no need to replace your spot; and from close to start of play you've not really done much that seems pro-Town to me.  Your behavior isn't that bad of a Scum cover either.  I'm far from sure you're Scum but I'm far from sure you're Town either, so for the moment this works for me.  As long as you're seeking replacement I'm not going to ask you anything.

Care to explain that [Deathsword's] case in your own words?


And, if you are Town, for the sake of a Town win, I hope you start making that very, very clear.  I didn't expect to be able to judge you based on your own words or actions - I thought you'd be vague enough that I'd -have- to rule your role out or not by comparing Rolepgeek's history to Deathsword's history/Tiruin's end of D2 behavior and Squill's endless caution (that is a rather Scummy trait).

Quote from: Pufferfish on November 09, 2013, 03:46:54 am

Seeing as the day ends monday, unless we come to a decision over the weekend, ((unlikely)), I will be posting and extend vote on monday if it comes down to the bare wires.

I am perfectly happy with further extensions, I believe that we need to come to a 3 way agreement (a 4 way is possible, but would include one liar - and if it includes both liars - game's over) before we can continue with any hope of a Town win.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 3 -
Post by: Imp on November 09, 2013, 06:39:39 am

Missed one of Puff's questions:

Quote from: Pufferfish on November 03, 2013, 07:55:47 pm

At which post did you decide RPG to be the scummiest?

This one. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4669054#msg4669054)

At the time of that post, I held Kleril to be Scummiest, and Superblackcat to be second Scummiest.  That post, combined with all of his earlier interactions made Rolepgeek reach third most clearest Scum to me.

As I continued to watch Superblackcat, I reclassified him as 'unable to be useful but almost certainly Town', which shifted Rolepgeek to second Scummiest.

When Kleril died, that death shifted Rolepgeek to first Scummiest, thus he was my top Scum pick at the start of D2.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 3 -
Post by: Imp on November 09, 2013, 07:44:50 am

bsnott:

Quote from: bsnott on November 05, 2013, 07:10:59 pm

How can I prove myself to any of you?

You already have, to me, and I find it odd that this has not been discussed amongst our other players yet.  That's changing and soon.

Squill:

Quote from: Squill on November 05, 2013, 11:16:47 am

Quote from: Imp on November 05, 2013, 08:00:41 am

Squill:

Veiled threats, the sort that you see in my writing, do you believe those are exclusively Pro-Town behavior, Anti-Town behavior, or a mixture of both?  If it's a mixture, what's the ratio approximately seem to be?

A factor that affects now, which didn't before (in case you see me as a bully or whatever else bad, be I Town or not) - we have no room for a mislynch.

I think veiled threats might have been a poor choice of words, but I think you get what I mean. I think that you're the most aggressive player in the game, which is both good and bad. Good because it probably puts pressure on scum, but bad because it intimidates people from voting on you, out of fear that you, as an aggressive player, will turn on them. This is not to say that you are definitely or even probably scum, it's just to say that no one has seriously scumhunted against you yet. So I want to ask you: Do you think that there can be a thing as too aggressive in this game? Do you think that it is possible that, by being very aggressive, to deflect scrutiny by means of intimidation?

Alright.  I'll also point out that you didn't answer my question (yet).  You did provide other information and ask other questions.

I'll answer you now (and in my next post I'll explain why I didn't answer you until I got Tiruin's answer), but I've just got to ask - why didn't you answer me?

"Do you think that there can be a thing as too aggressive in this game?"  I don't know.  I do know that misapplication of aggression would be harmful.  I can't think of a scenario where properly applied aggression could be 'too much' - but proper application of aggression includes restraint.  Aggression without restraint, that's the closest I can think of as 'too aggressive' - but I still call that 'wrong aggressive' and 'poor aggression'.

"Do you think that it is possible that, by being very aggressive, to deflect scrutiny by means of intimidation?"  Your wording to me implies 'successful deflection' - though you do not add the word successful in.  I answer that interpretation first:  Possible, but should be very unlikely.  Our skilled players especially are likely to be able to handle that type of attempted defense.  Others among us are capable of attempting to as well.  Note that only Scum need to successfully deflect scrutiny.  Town should not care - but are expected to respond to it when it happens.

Interpreting your question as 'attempt deflection':  Yes.  Rather foolish, but yes.  You need -more- than aggression because if the aggression is all you have, then that shows, and looks highly Scummy.  And there's all the clues that you're likely dropping, knowingly or not, in all you say and do - note that only Scum need to attempt to deflect Scrutiny.  Town should not care - but are expected to respond to it when it happens.

Quote from: Squill on November 07, 2013, 09:27:57 pm

@Imp: I am not quite sure I follow. What was so imperative(heh) about this question/answer that you needed to put several other things on hold until Tiruin replied? It doesn't make a lot of sense to me, could you clarify?

Because it's the one thing that Tiruin's done/had time to do that came at a highly meaningful point in the game.  Not as meaningful as bsnott's meaningful action, but reasonably close.  And what she did (not trying to get extension/saying she thought she had asked for an extension/later saying that she didn't because she thought no one else wanted one) (some sort of vote confusion/some sort of lie about vote perception?/that weird discussion about SBC versus Darvi being the vote choice (and rolepgeek not) when a vote for SBC would have tied the votes (because of my vote compromise to him from hours before) and if she had MISSED that compromise (which considering voting for SBC implies - unawareness that it would create a tie because she didn't see I'd changed my vote) then she should have considered Rolepgeek a possible lynch, but she doesn't discuss that, not even to say 'and I think Rolepgeek's Town. She even asks him, with about 10 minutes left on the clock to end of day, to explain his vote for Superblackcat)


This matters because I know I'm Town, and because of bsnott's actions when Scum could have won the game, I know he's Town.  There's only three Town left, and I know who two are.  That's big to me.  That gives me GREAT hope, the most hope I've had since I was the blithering idiot who believed she'd spotted both Scum on D1 (and was wrong about both picks).

So between you, Puff, and Tiruin, two are Scum and one is Town.  If Tiruin's scary choices at a time when acting like Scum starts to make sense are actually sensible, then the only thing I can judge her role on is Deathsword's behavior, Town or Scum she's just too good for me to be able to distinguish on D3 lylo.  I thought I'd have to judge Puff on Rolepgeek's behavior too, but that doesn't seem to be the case either.

You have scared me about your possibly being Scum from the beginning.  You've played a SOLIDLY cautious game all the way through.  You've spoken close to the minimum possible to get by, and you didn't even do that until you were challenged to.  Cautious may well mean Scum.  Otherwise you're not especially Scummy - or anything.  You're so self contained, you could be anything under your introvert exterior.

So I really expected I'd have to judge you based on my evaluations of Rolepgeek/Puff and Deathsword/Tiruin.

That hasn't changed.

The thing is, the reason to wait - if I could pick out the last Town, then I can save a lot of time and energy on not trying to convince the Scum - who don't need to be convinced of anything and are finally in striking range of a win.  I can identify them, interact however is needed - but I know their opinion is garbage and their intentions are deceptive.  They don't need convincing who is Town or Scum.

I lean towards you being Town for primarily two reasons - Other than your incredible caution you haven't really done anything seriously Scummy and all of your play, even that caution can be fit into the range of 'reasonable choices for a new player to make', and because of the huge 'pro Scum' move Tiruin pulled.  I waited for her answer because if it is a mistake, I need to know so I can evaluate the honesty of the reasons against the facts of the situation.  Right now her reasons given don't match the facts they cover, and she stopped before explaining what I needed most to hear, stating that she was doing so because

Quote from: Tiruin on November 07, 2013, 03:47:10 pm

...Imp. I've to cut the spoilers short, but that is as far as I go until I see a flaw in your note here. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4740558#msg4740558) It appears to me that you discarded your own vote on Darvi when putting up those tables, and...somehow backed up the suspicion on me from that point. What (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4716603#msg4716603) did you see Darvi as, at that time?

I don't quite understand her reason for stopping, unless she's confused as heck and can't continue without clarification (or she's Scum and choosing to stop there because that supports her needs best)  So I've clarified for her.

But we can't just keep waiting, and I got one answer from her.  It's likely to be the best that I can get.  She has said:

Quote from: Tiruin on November 03, 2013, 04:19:50 am

Imp:
I see you as town.

If she's Town, she knows she is town, she considers me Town too.

And:

Quote from: Tiruin on November 03, 2013, 09:38:23 pm

Expounding.
Rolepgeek (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4731858#msg4731858)'s last post. The one which attracted my attention (since I was reading backwards..yeah  ::))

She's reading backwards.  So the most recent posts in the thread she should be familiar with - including the ones where I analyze and identify bsnott as confirmed Town.  She doesn't comment on this, at all - not an 'agreed', not a 'whoa, later we'll talk about that' - she skips it.  As Town, it should attract notice - enough to evaluate for veracity - it may even identify me as Scum if I am through some sort of slip up.  She doesn't say a word about it - but if she agrees with it and she is Town - she knows who two Town are (herself, bsnott) and she thinks I am Town too.

But she also says:

Quote from: Tiruin on November 07, 2013, 03:47:10 pm

Imp: Note that, before all else, I address your note of 'why I'm doing x'. This is because I don't actually care about being scummy or not-slip ups are made, and I'd argue that I would 'do' or the act would happen regardless of my alignment

That bugs me, because we are in lylo.  A misunderstanding can cost us the game, and I have explained to her (tried darn hard at least) that I view that as a seriously pro-Scum pair of moves.  Because lylo means a mistake or a misunderstanding will lead to game over, I believe that explaining choices so your reasoning can be considered is vital - if you are talking to Town.

If you're talking to Scum and know it, that's kinda a waste of time, other than what information the other Town players gain from watching the exchange.

So I believe if she's a Town player who believes she's talking to another Town player, she should care if I think she's Scum in lylo, at least enough to explain her honest choices.  If she doesn't have honest choices, well, she's not Town and may not have anything that looks like an honest reason to explain.  If she's Town who thinks I am scum, she shouldn't care what I think, only what the other players think - and if she's Scum - also, she should care more about what all players think, than what I specifically do or not.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 3 -
Post by: Imp on November 09, 2013, 07:58:29 am

Ok everyone:

Here's a summary of my case for bsnott being proved Town:

He walks into the game 90 minutes from what I believe to be the end of Day, places a vote on me, taking us from a tie (Town would lose) to a lynch Imp (Town loses if Imp is Town).  In actuality, the game has two extend votes, enough to extend - if no shortens are placed.  But I don't understand that, and I explain current state of the game as needing 3 extend votes as I believe it does.



If bsnott is Scum, he knows my role.  He can very innocently just log out, 'never see' my post about what's going on - that covers him if both Squill and Tiruin log in  and he lives to D3 despite leaving his vote the way it is.

But he stays, voting extend (and throwing away a very likely Scum win - because if he is Scum he knows my role).  That third extend vote could be very important - that means that a single shorten cannot force the day to end as scheduled.

He has acted in a way incompatible with a Scum win, at a time when a Scum win could have been achieved.  That's a form of pressure, especially for Scum - a very potent form of pressure.  He passed that test.  He is Town.  Newbie Town; not bothering to check into the game Town - but that doesn't change his role.


So, discuss.  Do you agree with my reasoning?  If you do not - why, where is it flawed?  Also - why didn't you talk about this rather extraordinary claim previously?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 3 -
Post by: Squill on November 10, 2013, 04:42:52 pm

Ahhhh. Fuck, sorry for being absent so long. I wasn't here on Saturday and for the first half of today, and when I get on Friday to post/warn you guys of impending absence, and, waddya know? 504 gateway timeout.
Anyways, I'm back.

Quote from: Imp on November 09, 2013, 07:44:50 am

bsnott:

Quote from: bsnott on November 05, 2013, 07:10:59 pm

How can I prove myself to any of you?

You already have, to me, and I find it odd that this has not been discussed amongst our other players yet.  That's changing and soon.

Squill:

Quote from: Squill on November 05, 2013, 11:16:47 am

Quote from: Imp on November 05, 2013, 08:00:41 am

Squill:

Veiled threats, the sort that you see in my writing, do you believe those are exclusively Pro-Town behavior, Anti-Town behavior, or a mixture of both?  If it's a mixture, what's the ratio approximately seem to be?

A factor that affects now, which didn't before (in case you see me as a bully or whatever else bad, be I Town or not) - we have no room for a mislynch.

I think veiled threats might have been a poor choice of words, but I think you get what I mean. I think that you're the most aggressive player in the game, which is both good and bad. Good because it probably puts pressure on scum, but bad because it intimidates people from voting on you, out of fear that you, as an aggressive player, will turn on them. This is not to say that you are definitely or even probably scum, it's just to say that no one has seriously scumhunted against you yet. So I want to ask you: Do you think that there can be a thing as too aggressive in this game? Do you think that it is possible that, by being very aggressive, to deflect scrutiny by means of intimidation?

I'll answer you now (and in my next post I'll explain why I didn't answer you until I got Tiruin's answer), but I've just got to ask - why didn't you answer me?

People not wanting to go against you is all well and good if you are town, but the entire point of the game is that we really don't know who's side anyone is on except for ourselves. I think that the only way people should be excluded from questioning is if they present very good proof of them not being scum. Thus, I think that, whether intentionally or unintentionally, presenting yourself as a target that is too high to hit can be at best ineffective at achieving anything, but more probably detrimental to town.

As for bsnott, I don't think that there really is some sort of argument here.
Unless bsnott is one of the dumbest people in existence, there is no way he is scum.
Unvote. At this point, continuing to vote for him is an insult to his intelligence.

This is probably all I'm doing today. I'm kinda tired, and I need time to collect my thoughts.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 3 -
Post by: bsnott on November 10, 2013, 08:36:15 pm

Huge sorry to everyone for my inactivity over the past weekend. I've been at my dad's house, and for some odd reason the Wi-Fi there will not work. It wouldn't even work on my Android phone. It's crazy. Anyway, let's get to the game.

@Pufferfish You may have previously stated this, but what is your list?

@Squill Thank you, I think!

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 3 -
Post by: Tiruin on November 10, 2013, 08:42:46 pm

Addressing the past, separated in sections for clarity/easy formatting.
Posting soon. Just had a breezy (literally. Pretty much an understatement...) weekend.

Mostly to Imp. Notes on others.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 3 -
Post by: Gentlefish on November 10, 2013, 08:46:20 pm

BSnott

Quote from: bsnott on November 10, 2013, 08:36:15 pm

@Pufferfish You may have previously stated this, but what is your list?

I know I posted it. But I can't find to to quote it, so:

Imp
Tiruin/Squill
You

Imp:
Speaking now on your feeling of Squill being scum for playing cautious:

Why does cautious posting scare you? Squill has already mentioned that your posts are aggressive and may turn people away from responding to you. So not responding due to someone's perceived overbearing aggressiveness is scummy?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 3 -
Post by: Tiruin on November 10, 2013, 09:54:00 pm

Alright! Using Think's lurkertracker (http://think0028.com/lurkertracker.py?url=http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.0) (Sorry for that thing in the other thread ZU :( ..I'm unsure if I hurt your feelings..but I guess you also need a vote-history counter too along with that current-vote-counter. :P)

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Imp:

Spoiler: First post after my last one (click to show/hide)

In that WoT (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4750626#msg4750626) of yours, I see a misplacement (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4748064#msg4748064) of one of my pertinent queries. What you thought of Darvi at the time. [Unless I'm visually impaired and missed it  ]

Quote

I made those tables to compare reality, as of when you joined the thread, as of when you voted, and to match what you said in your explanation of why you voted.  If one of them looks like I'm disregarding my own vote - I am - because your explanation of who you considered 'up for lynch' disregards my vote.  If those tables look crazy to you - it's because I made them trying to illustrated and get you to clear up what looks crazy to me.

Problem: I said nothing in my explanation which disregards your vote--what I meant here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4748064#msg4748064):

Quote

It appears to me that you discarded your own vote on Darvi when putting up those tables, and...somehow backed up the suspicion on me from that point.

. I was poking at how you made the tables in your post. It did not pick up your vote. Check: (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4740558#msg4740558)
I'm referring to the lines between:

Quote

So when you talk about the 'choice' between Superblackcat and Darvi, you actually mean the choice between lynching Darvi and no-lynch.

But you NEVER mention that.  You are discussing it from the perspective of seeing the board as:

And

Quote

But the board was NEVER like that, NEVER - not since you joined the game.  The board was like THIS:

Wherein..I did wonder why you did state the table below

Quote

When you voted, votecount looked like this:

AND regarded what I had said

Quote

So when you talk about the 'choice' between Superblackcat and Darvi, you actually mean the choice between lynching Darvi and no-lynch.

The discrepancy is:

Quote

But you NEVER mention that.  You are discussing it from the perspective of seeing the board as:

I. Never. Said. Anything along those lines. If you mean 'I really wanna lynch Darvi and I missed your vote but oh no I'm caught and I'm defending myself on that', I say 'No, that's not what I was thinking.'

For all references on that point:

Quote

When you voted, votecount looked like this:

  Imp
  Squill
  Rolepgeek
  Superblackcat - Rolepgeek
  Mr.Zero
  Deathsword
  Darvi - Superblackcat, Imp

This was how I saw the point, and your expression on no-lynch/lynching Darvi in the post (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4715858#msg4715858) before mine was the post that affected my post and what was in it.

Spoiler: Tl;dr? (click to show/hide)

Quote

So I'm going to just ask you, "explain what you thought the votecount was, and then we continue from there, alright?"  Because that's a large part of my major suspicion of you, personally, this game.  I think what you said about your choices for your vote doesn't make sense.

This.

Quote

When you voted, votecount looked like this:

  Imp
  Squill
  Rolepgeek
  Superblackcat - Rolepgeek
  Mr.Zero
  Deathsword
  Darvi - Superblackcat, Imp

That was where I explained myself from thereon, and..did wonder on why you unvoted on Darvi. If I were to pull rationalism into view, I could've just stalled and idled as the day went off, but that isn't how I play. I back up what I say and do what I see fit - hence me voting on someone instead of the other one. By this, it means that the primary factor here is 'who has a majority vote' as given the time, yes, I admit I was being...sloppy on my IC duties (RL notwithstanding, a good IC should learn how to complement it x_x) = I could've done my voting and leads from then and attempted to convince at the time who I thought most scummy, but that is personally my fault for reading backwards and..not keeping a really organized list of notes on all of you at the time.
I mean, all I have are 3 pages in MS Word and that's not enough for y'all.

Next!

Quote

Maybe you were confused, maybe we were both confused, or maybe you were being maliciously manipulative.  That third one's what I'm worried about, so lets get it straightened out.

I'm on confusion/forced to decide on the lacking time. Manipulative...I understand how this is a conclusion, but through all else that I can say without pulling the 'I'm town and I'm not' cheapcard, I have to denounce that in favor of what I say above in the tl;dr section.

Spoiler: Fixin' things (click to show/hide)

Summary below the single horizontal ruler below
Here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4750626#msg4750626). {Note that in regular games, things should be summarized instead of poking at nits, something which I failed to do here..and where I apologize for affecting you, in whatever way.}

Quote

1)  You and I did not vote for Darvi at the same time, or even close.
2)  I did not vote for Darvi moments before you did.  I voted for Darvi more than 5 hours before you did.

...Yes. When I say 'at that time' I refer to the time when I posted. I read the previous posts, and checked it up with the votecount at the top of the page (15 post/normal forum format) and acted on that point. I did not mean for this to be something of a time-based case.

Quote

3)  When you discuss who you might vote for, you discuss only Darvi and Superblackcat.  If you had actually voted for Superblackcat, you would have created a tie.  Anyone else you had voted for would have had just one vote on them - Darvi would have two votes.  But I had switched to Darvi as a compromise, from my vote on Rolepgeek - Do you claim to have missed this?  Do you claim to be unaware that if you had voted for Superblackcat you would have created a tie?

...Yes, I admittedly do claim that I missed that. As said above (and..only noticed now on a thorough re-read), I did miss that point.
However I am AWARE that if I had voted for SBC, I would've created a tie, which explains why I did what I said here. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4716707#msg4716707) And the..misunderstanding on where you say Rolepgeek goes, and my query on where Rolepgeek did [explain vote]

Quote

You sound like you think SBC was up for lynch (he is not, your vote for him would have created a tie unless someone else changes their vote), and IF you thought Rolepgeek was lynchable, you dismiss that with a single question towards him.

I was comparing lynch = no lynch. Which is connected with why I asked you why you unvoted on Darvi at the time.

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Quote

So you say you looked at the vote count for extensions, and I assume you also looked at the votecount for votes.  Thus you HAD to know that I'd voted for Rolepgeek, and that I'd recently switched to Darvi - or you HAD to have thought that Rolepgeek had one vote still.

But you never discuss Rolepgeek as being up for the lynch.  You discuss creating a tie (as if you have no idea it would create a tie - that supports that you didn't see my vote for Darvi at the time), but your post totally fails to consider lynching Rolepgeek - not even to say why you wouldn't consider it.

This..is where things get complex. I did look at the votecount, and at the extensions, yet my mind did not factor in the shift from Rolepgeek towards Darvi and such--I counted, at that time, that you had voted Darvi all along.

Which would be why I asked why you unvoted Darvi and..didn't say anything towards Rolepgeek but forwarded him a question. I have nothing else to say but that.

bsnott/Imp/All concerned

Spoiler: And on that thing on bsnott (click to show/hide)

Quote from: Imp on November 09, 2013, 07:58:29 am

Ok everyone:

Here's a summary of my case for bsnott being proved Town:

He walks into the game 90 minutes from what I believe to be the end of Day, places a vote on me, taking us from a tie (Town would lose) to a lynch Imp (Town loses if Imp is Town).  In actuality, the game has two extend votes, enough to extend - if no shortens are placed.  But I don't understand that, and I explain current state of the game as needing 3 extend votes as I believe it does.



If bsnott is Scum, he knows my role.  He can very innocently just log out, 'never see' my post about what's going on - that covers him if both Squill and Tiruin log in  and he lives to D3 despite leaving his vote the way it is.

But he stays, voting extend (and throwing away a very likely Scum win - because if he is Scum he knows my role).  That third extend vote could be very important - that means that a single shorten cannot force the day to end as scheduled.

He has acted in a way incompatible with a Scum win, at a time when a Scum win could have been achieved.  That's a form of pressure, especially for Scum - a very potent form of pressure.  He passed that test.  He is Town.  Newbie Town; not bothering to check into the game Town - but that doesn't change his role.


So, discuss.  Do you agree with my reasoning?  If you do not - why, where is it flawed?  Also - why didn't you talk about this rather extraordinary claim previously?

I..have to disagree and place my view of him as null. If such things as 'inactivity' would create a town-vibe, then something is either wrong with how scum/towntells are portrayed, or that he's acting like newb-scum given your first paragraph.

The vote on Imp (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4734183#msg4734183), as a generality, had NOTHING to stand on. That post has blank questions, where blank = things related to summarizing or catching up with the game. Something which, I have to ask, on how would that be a teller for township?

He (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4734217#msg4734217) did extend, sure. But this could be in the analysis of motive. Such an act as that vote usually goes onto a 'cheap move'. You win via technical mechanics, if so, and if that is the case, he may have just extended to ensure a better chance of getting into the game

bsnott: How did you see your first post/vote? Based on this (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4734249#msg4734249) - you ask others who they think is scum, how will that help you? Do you have your own reads or are you searching for others' reads to comply with?

Spoiler: Continuation of above spoiler + notes on what I think about Imp/Puffy. (click to show/hide)

Quote

He has acted in a way incompatible with a Scum win, at a time when a Scum win could have been achieved.  That's a form of pressure, especially for Scum - a very potent form of pressure.  He passed that test.  He is Town.  Newbie Town; not bothering to check into the game Town - but that doesn't change his role.

I'm curious on why you regard him as town as so, with what seems to be vague and debatable evidence at best. His (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4734241#msg4734241) query comes more along the line of either lazy-summary asking, or scumhunting in the way that it asks Imp how her viewpoint is by saying 'tell me the story of this game FROM YOUR VIEWPOINT thus far'. What jives me wrong there is the following sentence. 'Answer me, and I'll answer any questions from you.'

This (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4734249#msg4734249) explains newness. But not alignment-tells to me.

Cutting it short, lurkertracker + his posts scream null to me. I can't fathom what he's doing asking Imp/Rolepgeek as if they're the stars of the show--meaning that they're the centerpoint of attraction, perhaps, and may mean something.

What I see, however, is that Imp/Pufferfish are not aligned together whatspever, unless this is a real complex bus-move, they aren't connected.

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Squill//Regards on DS:

Quote from: Squill on November 07, 2013, 09:27:57 pm

@Tiruin: Do you understand why Imp wanted this answered so badly?

..I can. She wants to be sure, and while I look at DS' case, it seems faulty that he's accusing the holistic portion of Imp without looking into Depth.



I had this saved and should be with that post which had a ton of spoilers...
Squill

Quote from: Squill on November 04, 2013, 03:43:38 pm

Really sorry for not being here yesterday, all.

Quote from: Tiruin on November 03, 2013, 04:19:50 am

Before I complete my post (yeah holidays + preparing for uni), I'd like to ask a few things.

Squill: It is LYLO. You're seriously voting for Imp under grounds of this (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4735032#msg4735032) accusation? The same would follow for Rolepgeek, but by far--what Imp said is perfectly her own opinion, and will not daunt others from playing. I mean, its pretty obvious that people would be irritated or depressed at the level of activity given how much effort they've put into it.

Humor me. Did you think that case would be believable enough to stand? You seem to be concluding more than investigating, given how you aren't leaving anything for Imp. Is that a conclusion back there?

I think you're right. Imp was my best vote, but it was terribly thought out. For now, unvote.

And your best vote is terribly thought out. Append a 'for now' and you have an unvote.

The reasons on my vote on Puffyfish were mostly subjective to his former's actions, but here you-to not parrot Imp- retreat in the face of direct opposition.

The vagueness there. What is it for? You think I'm right means that you sort of agree with me, aye? So then what?

Shotgun questions.

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Puffin!
Why do you use FoS instead of a vote? What is your intent in doing such? Why so?

PFP. I'm a bad IC :/

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 3
Post by: zombie urist on November 11, 2013, 12:41:52 am

Day ends Monday November 11th 9PM PST. About ~23 hours from this post

Imp -
squill -
bsnott -
Pufferfish -
Tiruin -

Not voting - bsnott, Pufferfish, Imp, Tiruin, squill

0 to extend, 2 needed
0 to shorten, 3 needed

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 3 -
Post by: Gentlefish on November 11, 2013, 12:53:42 am

Tiruin:

You're right. I do have to vote at some point. Let's get the pressure going. I'll rebuild Deathsword's case and make my vote.

After I get my cookie dough.

Also this has been a weird game as it comes to BMs, as far as I can understand. Looots of absence. So you're not a bad IC.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 3
Post by: Gentlefish on November 11, 2013, 03:57:22 am

My case for Imp as founded by DeathSword and expounded upon by me.

Spoiler: Deathsword questions and Imp answers (click to show/hide)

Quote from: Deathsword on October 15, 2013, 12:34:23 pm

Imp: If you got nothing better to do with your vote, as you claim here:

Quote from: Imp on October 15, 2013, 01:49:17 am

Rolepgeek, I've got this vote and no better use for it right now.  If you're dead there's no need to replace your spot; and from close to start of play you've not really done much that seems pro-Town to me.  Your behavior isn't that bad of a Scum cover either.  I'm far from sure you're Scum but I'm far from sure you're Town either, so for the moment this works for me.  As long as you're seeking replacement I'm not going to ask you anything.

Then why not use it to pressure someone who can actually answer you? It seems as if you want to vote someone but don't really care who, and Rolepgeek provides a nice, safe target.

Also, someone asked at some point, I can't seem to find the post, for an example of previous play from me. Here it is (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=124597.0).

((Total post wordcount: 73))

Quote from: Imp on October 16, 2013, 06:46:14 am

-snip DS-related, non-case material-

The only way you can make that claim about how I use my vote, and how I use pressure, is to disregard how I have played this game so far.  Considering how -you- have played this game so far, I'm not surprised at you at all.

I -am- using it on someone who -can- actually answer me.  But how are you using yours? You're not really scumhunting with your vote on me, because you're not really working or thinking, you're either just randomly pushing - taking the easy out that you accuse me of - or you're actively trying to control how I use my vote.  Shame on you for either, you IC jerk.   My vote is -mine-.  The pressure I place is -mine- to use as I see fit, be that pressure with words gentle, harsh, or supported at the time or later with a vote.  Get into this game and play, be the role model and player in this game that you are supposed to be, or die here for your failings.

-snipped non-DS material- ((Total post wordcount: 1387))

Quote from: Deathsword on October 16, 2013, 09:31:39 am

-snip quote

I am not, and at no point have I ever stated this. To the point I actually apologized for my low activity. How in any way is that acting as if I had a right to lurk?

-snip quote-

{I stand by my advice that speculating about the night is useless to either town or scum. You have the right to disagree. I fully believe in what I said about it, both as scum and as town. There are others who disagree, and like doing that. It is their call. Being a scum IC is actually pretty easy, as you do not have to think as a player, you do not have to scumhunt}

-snip quote-

I do not like to give much details about my personal life, but I'll say this: my health is complete and utter shit. I get sick quite frequently, whenever the air gets somewhat dry it feels as if my nose if trying to rip itself from the rest of my face and I've had to do two complete lung collapses (for absolutely no reason either) in the same year. When I say I am unable to post, it's because I really am, especially where my health is concerned.

-snip quote-

Being a scum IC is actually pretty easy, as you do not have to think as a player, you do not have to scumhunt.

-snip quote-

Rolepgeek asked to replace. When someone asks for that, it usually means they stop posting. You yourself said you voted him because you had nothing else to do with said vote. Now you talk about your previous play, but it is this very same previous play that makes your disregard as to where your vote goes more glaring. Is the vote yours to use as you see fit? Yes. It still does not exempt you from being called out on it.
((total post word count: 305))

Quote from: Imp on October 16, 2013, 04:55:38 pm

Deathsword - Hope you feel better soon.

-snip quote-

I'm not saying 'you say you have that right' -  I am saying 'you act as if you have that right' and I say it because you have been doing it.  This:

-snip quote-

All of last week you made 1 post - only one post (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4670881#msg4670881).  That post contained no scumhunting and outside of a small amount of IC advice.  Are you hiding -from yourself- with an apology for 'The last two days'?  No two days are an issue.  The whole kit and caboodle across the course of the game is the issue.  Get off your behind and work for this Town.  This Town can't afford to carry you and your behavior is directly or indirectly helping the Scum - and you lack the inexperience to not know this.  Fix it.

((EDIT APPENDED))


Should read:  "That post contained no scumhunting and outside of a small amount of IC advice, nothing but apology and deflection/explanation of misdirection in an earlier post you'd made - it is of minimal value for Town purposes."


((total post word count: 135 + 39))

Quote from: Deathsword on October 18, 2013, 12:25:17 pm

-snip quote-

Regarding this: as a whole, the remaining players here are doing pretty well, mechanics-wise. There is little at the moment that requires an IC explanation.

-snip quote-

Well, I think you are scum, and am voting you over it.

Let me restate why: You just threw a vote on Rolepgeek because you could, because you had nothing better to do with it. In the quoted post you further list inactivity (which, I suppose, is a valid, if somewhat weak, reason) and a personal attack (IC stuff on this below). While the added reasons are nice, I am still concerned over the disregard over where your vote went, and, to be quite frank, I consider you to be, among the new players here, one of the most possibly dangerous if scum.

{On personal attacks: don't. Seriously, just don't. It adds nothing to the game, is of no benefit to anyone (town, scum, third-party) and can ruin the friendly (if agressive) nature of the game. What happens in the game stays in it, and you shouldn't hold a grudge or insult someone over it.}

-snip quote-

{BMs often tend to have periods of very low activity, especially as the game goes on. People often don't realise how long a mafia game can take.}

Extend

((Total post word count: 206))

Quote from: Imp on October 18, 2013, 01:53:19 pm

-snip quote

You may have read what I said about my impressions of the six of us playing that are not me.

For -four- of us I have no solid feel; I find the scum-hunting efforts of -four- of us to be highly unsatisfactory (though some within that set are worse than others) (and of the rest of us, I'd like more too, because I'm not sure we're cutting it - yeah that means me too because we are a team and we succeed or fail as a team; if there's a way, anyway to get this working that my actions can help make happen, I'm duty bound to do it if I can find it).

My vote could have been placed on any of the four with my conscience comfortable; I selected the scummiest and hardest for me to read as of that point.

-snip quote-

Calling them 'added reasons' is bunk; or proof that you're not bothering to pay attention (they were also listed here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4671630#msg4671630), under all things Rolepgeek), or possibly that you arn't bothered to think up real reasons and are just grabbing what's recent and comfortable to deflect attention from the lacks in your play I have been increasingly pointing out.

At this point I could live with a lynch on any of these four: Rolepgeek, Deathsword, Darvi, Squill.  I'm not totally certain that my Town picks are Town, but they're sure a heck of a lot more Town-like than any of the rest of you, and they've both interacted enough for me to get a feel that allows me to think of them as Town.  Hint hint, if you're on my 'seems scummy list', that's a way to help confirm or deny your Townness - get more active.  Talk more, to me or anyone.  Show enough of yourself to be readable - and particularly show your scumhunting.

I am depressed to be near the end of day 2 and to have so little feel of so many players.  I want that fixed.  I don't know how to fix it myself.

You claim

-snip quote-

Regarding this: as a whole, the remaining players here are doing pretty well, mechanics-wise. There is little at the moment that requires an IC explanation.

So you're saying that this game is going just fine.  Activity is fine, interaction is fine, ...  Wow.  I call so much BS from you and what you say.

Why, you even wait until NOW!! to throw out an IC comment about don't personal attack.  More than ten days after it happened!

-snip quote-

On a theory level, I'm flattered and I hope to be very dangerous when Scum; on an actual level you're failing in your logic here.

The most dangerous Scum are the people who actually are Scum, in this game right now.  Those two as yet unfound people.  It's fine to go for me, but we cannot afford for you to ignore everyone else, or for you to tolerate low levels of interaction and scumhunting - and you appear to be doing both.  I do not protest that you call me and my actions Scum - I protest because you're being lazy about it.  You're not working, you're not using anything but convenient easy recent things to support your attack; you look like you're just going through the motions, not that you care about anything other than deflecting attention from yourself.  You're scumhunting scummily.

Whoever we lynch today, me or anyone, Town or Scum, that passes the edge from playtime to endtime.  Use today to prepare for Mylo.  Get AS MUCH information today as you can, because if today is a mislynch and tonight there's a kill, there's almost nothing left to work with.  Get active peeps.  Set yourselves up, work as a team so the Scum are also forced to work as a team or stand out - so that if we mislynch today we are in a great position for tomorrow.  Please, my partners.  Please get involved and active, so the Scum cannot stand beside you so easily.

((Total post wordcount: 643))

((RPG and Imp have at each other))

Quote from: Deathsword on October 21, 2013, 11:41:21 am

Imp, what you are basically doing is trying to dominate the game with massive walls of text. Every time someone says something you disagree with, out comes the WoTs.

-snip quote-

Above, for example, you attempt to discredit rolepgeek by point out posts where he said he was busy/not paying attention. While that was certainly true, what makes you think he didn't do a full read of the thread before posting his own wall of text?


You talk a lot about personal attacks and how long it took me to react. You know why I took so long to "react"? Because I did not see it as a personal attack. He criticised your playstile, which apparently offended you, thus resulting in you calling it an attack on your person. Well, following that logic, all your allegations that I am a shitty player/IC are personal attacks as well.

You are trying to do a lot to discredit me, despite the fact that I've been trying to provide advice since the very start of the game. Darvi was gone for a full week, but you barely said anything about that, and when you did it was in a friendly tone. When it comes to me, out come the allegations of me being shit. SBC is gone too, not a single word was said by you about that. So is MrZero. So is Squill.

Your walls of text are smokescreens, for walls of text are indeed intimidating, and it discourages others to go through them and attempt to counter the arguments.

I am, of course, unfazed by such attempts of discredit. But it reeks of scum play, and for that my vote stays on you.

((Total post wordcount: 282))

Quote from: Imp on October 21, 2013, 07:38:21 pm

Deathsword:

-snip quote-

I disagree with your determination of my motive.  I am playing, very actively playing.  I flat out don't care if my activity 'dominates the game' or not - I wish everyone were more active and would be perfectly content if everyone were as active and verbose as I am.  You however, are connecting pressure upon me to a directive from you to be less involved in the game.  Seriously scummy move.

-snip quote-

You again incorrectly ascribe motive to me.  I make no attempt to 'discredit' Rolepgeek; he's doing a fine job of that all by himself.  I discuss what I see, oh yes.  Every person must draw their own conclusions.  Your question is answered, and quite fully, in the portions of my answer immediately preceding and also following what you bothered to quote:

-snip quote-

I understood you were not reading the thread (staring at it sometimes, yes, but NOT reading it) because you said so, and then gave no indication until your most recent post that this had changed.

-snip quote-

Really?  Seems this is the only thing I've said about that:

-snip quote-

Why does that feel like 'me talking alot' to you?

-snip quote-

I accept your classification of 'wasn't a personal attack' to you.  Given that his "criticism of my playstyle" (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4669054#msg4669054=) post came 3 days after he said he'd stopped reading what I (or anyone else) was writing, and he said he hadn't thoroughly read that either, despite saying he "was wanting to dissect the behemoth piece by piece and feed it to [me]".  When someone says something like this:  "I was trying to pressure Imp, to get him to do a good play instead of active-lurking like it had appeared he had been(and still may be)." and also say something like "[Imp's bad play] may have changed in the last five pages...About everything post behemoth, I can't say anything yet" - That's garbage.  Covering his inactivity with 'scumhunting', or at least "pressure" which he directly says he isn't even paying attention to the thread - useless, stupid application of "pressure" if he doesn't even bother to check if it's still warranted by his own non-scumhunting motives.  Guess what:  attacking someone outside of scumhunting - what is that?  What is it doing in the game?  What is it intended to achieve?

I think it's intended to cover his arse, to point fingers and shout and try to make someone other than himself look bad.

Your {IC} comment about no personal attacks coming a week and a half after the issue entered the thread; you don't bother to notice or care about its presence in the thread until you see fit to mention personal attacking in your own post as a player (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4696773;topicseen#msg4696773); Garbage.  Covering your arse garbage.  You're acting like Scum, before and still; I am calling you on it, and I understand this to be how the game is played and what Scumhunting is.  Which is not what Rolepgeek was doing in his "criticism of my playstyle" (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4669054#msg4669054=) post where he said 'I have no idea what is going on now but I'll put a lot of words into apology, say I don't know what is going on, and talk about how terrible that terrible Imp is, I've got some stuff to vent so woo!  I'm venting'.

-snip quote-

You too are doing just fine in discrediting yourself.  I'm talking about your actions, sure.  Do they look Scummy?  I think so.  But they're your actions, and we're supposed to Scumhunt.  You're the person to look to if what you do is Scummy; no one can "discredit" anyone but themselves; all anyone else can do is highlight and discuss.

As to other players being too quiet:  Yes.  And I don't know what to do about that.  I've been talking about it; 'be more active, please' has been a theme.  My first reaction to lurkers was back on the third day of play (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4641380#msg4641380). 

I still have no idea what to do about lurkers:

-snip quote-

I still am not sure if I'm supposed to track days (no one else is giving it high priority, not even either of our ICs or our moderator or our substitute moderator) and ask for prods, or they just won't happen.  When a prod was requested for Darvi, after 4 days of no posts, the mod responded with:

-snip quote-

...  So I dunno.  I so dunno.  But I have to do something.  No one else seems to be, and I'll be damned before I just sit here and wait for Town to die.

-snip quote-

You and Rolepgeek both look like Scum to me.  I can't say that I mind a seriously Scummy player saying "my vote stays on you", especially when the reasons given seem amount to:

You are active.  You are verbose.  You are attacking me.

Do I understand your case against me correctly, Scumsword?

As of right now, I'm equally happy to vote for either Rolepgeek or Deathsword.  I'd like to hear more from both, and everyone, before D2 ends.  We have about 28 hours before day end.  I'll be the first to say Extend in the wild hope that activity increases; failing that I don't mind seeing this amazingly inactive day end because without activity, I don't see any benefits to more time or less time; I see nothing but another pitiful Town loss.

-snip irrelevant-

EDIT APPENDED:

Oh yeah, also meant to ask you, Deathsword:  What's your opinion of everyone who's not me (I know you say I'm Scum) and yourself?

((Total post word count: 1343 + 24))

((Then Death Sword asks for replacement. Tiruin steps in.))

Spoiler: Fun facts and numbers! (click to show/hide)

Total Posts Quoted

• Death Sword: 3
• Imp: 4

Total wordcounts

• Death Sword: 866 words
• Imp (total): 3,571 words
• Imp (related): 1,921 words

Even while answering DS, Imp floods him with more than twice the number of words while DeathSword manages to answer concisely.

Spoiler: What I've gleaned from this. (click to show/hide)

As shortly as I can possibly say it, I believe DeathSword built a sturdy case against Imp. He managed to do so with three posts. Imp's response to him is to attempt to discredit him and treat him as though he were also guilty. She does so with many, many words. I stick to my OMGUS accusation.

Firstly: He votes Imp to be lynched. He then states that it seems to him that she wants to vote anyone and doesn't care who.

Response: Imp says that he's using his vote not to scumhunt at all - how dare someone even think of it! - but either as a random push, or trying to control her vote then calls him and IC jerk for doing so.

Quote

You're not really scumhunting with your vote on me, because you're not really working or thinking, you're either just randomly pushing - taking the easy out that you accuse me of - or you're actively trying to control how I use my vote.  Shame on you for either, you IC jerk.

DS again: First referring to previous accusations from Imp. Then says that she's voting one someone who's asked to be replaced. And that "you said yourself you voted him because you had nothing else to do with said vote". Then points out how your previous play points out how little you care.

Imp: Continuing on about her accusations around DS's health. This post mostly talks about how poor health is no excuse not to play.

DS: responding to IC accusations. Then goes on to re-state his case:

Quote

Let me restate why: You just threw a vote on Rolepgeek because you could, because you had nothing better to do with it. In the quoted post you further list inactivity (which, I suppose, is a valid, if somewhat weak, reason) and a personal attack (IC stuff on this below). While the added reasons are nice, I am still concerned over the disregard over where your vote went, and, to be quite frank, I consider you to be, among the new players here, one of the most possibly dangerous if scum.

and then votes extend.

Imp: Mentions there's three others she could vote for with good conscience. Then another IC accusation. No question for DS.

DS: points out how Imp appears to be using WoT's to dominate the game every time someone disagrees. responds to IC accusation. Then wonders why Imp is being so harsh on DS when she appeared to be gentle to Darvi and his absences, along with not mentioning Squill and SBC, and Mr.Zero.

Imp: disagrees with determination of motive ((Ayyy)) and then twists it around to try to make it appear as if DS is pressuring Imp to play less. Then goes on to say she isn't trying to discredit RPG, he's "doing a fine job all by himself". Then quotes something of her own and asks

Quote

Why does that feel like 'me talking alot' to you?

more IC details. Related. Very much related but it's late and I can't process the thick paragraphs very well. Then she says he's doing a fine job of discrediting himself too.
She then states that DS's vote boils down to:

Quote

You are active.  You are verbose.  You are attacking me.

Then asks if she understands his case correctly.

Then asks his opinion of everyone else.

Spoiler: Recent events! Ooh! Ahh! (heavily abridged because I need to get some shuteye at some point) (click to show/hide)

I start out friendly enough with Imp and I get the same back.

She has me read through day too, I do, and I see RPG and her. I call RPG out. She now has me read DS.

As soon as I realize and make known that I believe that Death Sword had a case, she starts splicing out my words and her posts become exponentially larger.

Almost as if she were afraid or even angry that I might be close to the truth of her role.

So, yes, from this information, I believe Imp to be guilty.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 3 -
Post by: Tiruin on November 11, 2013, 05:32:32 am

PFP

I would appreciate an answer to my question instead of a follow-through of whatever is implied between the absence of an answer and where my thoughts go in my question, Puffin.

Quote

As shortly as I can possibly say it, I believe DeathSword built a sturdy case against Imp. He managed to do so with three posts. Imp's response to him is to attempt to discredit him and treat him as though he were also guilty. She does so with many, many words. I stick to my OMGUS accusation.

What exactly is that part of Deathsword's case which you stand on against Imp? The word count? Where specifically in that field incriminates Imp and pokes her as scum?

The discredit, I'd understand, but thus far I see it more of a response/assertive retort towards what DS' aggression was doing. Pretty nice.
However, I've to ask-since you say 'discredit', it means that you stand fully by DS' case precluding my existence as a player, yes?

Quote

Firstly: He votes Imp to be lynched. He then states that it seems to him that she wants to vote anyone and doesn't care who.

Cont: "Who, at that time."
I've read the

Quote

Rolepgeek, I've got this vote and no better use for it right now.

as something else than 'i throw this vote at YOU because I've no better use for it'. I read it as an extreme--seeing Rolepgeek as scum, in other words. No better use being pressure or doubting and analysis.

Like saying 'Rolepgeek, I've got this vote I've no better use for it right now but[...]', and in the ellipsis adding the context of her following statement in that one vote-paragraph.

Quote

I'm far from sure you're Scum but I'm far from sure you're Town either, so for the moment this works for me.

...But this is where I poke Imp. :I

Quote

As long as you're seeking replacement I'm not going to ask you anything.

While this borders on respect to the person, Imp, you should see that the query at hand would also in effect be applied to who his replacee would answer--you can't leave a dry lead, dry. While a person is under replacement, shoot all queries at him. The 'asking for replacement' generally means that he's wishing to be replaced BUT UNTIL THE MOD ANNOUNCES HIM BEING REPLACED (or the player replacing in), the asker is generally considered a player until then.
^{Yeah this is what I mean by bad IC despite RL stuffs >_< I didn't address this at the best time!!!}

{Also Imp is a SHE, don't mistake her for a HE, thanks. :P}

Pufferfish: Can you summarize your case on Imp? Let's say this is a regular game and the whole audience is looking at said case to better expound on brevity-in-context. What'cha think on what would apply and appeal to the rest.

You've laid out the context-what is your jurisdiction and/or response?

Could you give your piece of mind on her responses to me and vice versa? What is your take on us?

---

Imp, by far it seems you're giving me the benefit of the doubt--as in, how you regarded my one case back there [Near D2 end]. Am I right in presuming such? Why, either way?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 3 -
Post by: Tiruin on November 11, 2013, 10:03:02 am

Quote from: zombie urist on November 11, 2013, 12:41:52 am

Day ends Monday November 11th 9PM PST. About ~23 hours from this post

Quote

12:41:52 am

Quote from: Time of my post

November 11, 2013, ~10:10:00 am

...13 hours left. C'mon. Extend. We're approaching cruising speed here.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 3 -
Post by: Gentlefish on November 11, 2013, 10:24:43 am

Extend

Tiruin:
My mistake, I misinterpreted the question. I'll answer when I get back from classes/work today.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 3 -
Post by: zombie urist on November 11, 2013, 02:35:54 pm

Day extended to Wednesday, November 13th 9 PM PST

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 3 -
Post by: Squill on November 11, 2013, 03:52:35 pm

Quote from: Tiruin on November 10, 2013, 09:54:00 pm

Squill

Quote from: Squill on November 04, 2013, 03:43:38 pm

Really sorry for not being here yesterday, all.

Quote from: Tiruin on November 03, 2013, 04:19:50 am

Before I complete my post (yeah holidays + preparing for uni), I'd like to ask a few things.

Squill: It is LYLO. You're seriously voting for Imp under grounds of this (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4735032#msg4735032) accusation? The same would follow for Rolepgeek, but by far--what Imp said is perfectly her own opinion, and will not daunt others from playing. I mean, its pretty obvious that people would be irritated or depressed at the level of activity given how much effort they've put into it.

Humor me. Did you think that case would be believable enough to stand? You seem to be concluding more than investigating, given how you aren't leaving anything for Imp. Is that a conclusion back there?

I think you're right. Imp was my best vote, but it was terribly thought out. For now, unvote.

And your best vote is terribly thought out. Append a 'for now' and you have an unvote.

The reasons on my vote on Puffyfish were mostly subjective to his former's actions, but here you-to not parrot Imp- retreat in the face of direct opposition.

The vagueness there. What is it for? You think I'm right means that you sort of agree with me, aye? So then what?

Shotgun questions.

@Tiruin:
I think that when I made that vote against Imp I was in a rather bad mood, and did not want to deal with people. I was posting because I felt like I had to, but I really didn't feel like spending too much time on it. So yes, I agree with you. As for the "So then what?", I'm not sure.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 3 -
Post by: Imp on November 11, 2013, 04:32:17 pm

Posting to check in.  I had massive distracting time consuming stuff over the weekend (weekends usually have been extra time for Mafia for me, not less) and today work is slamed.  My time budget for Mafia is incredibly pinched right now, so I'll be answering and answering tonight.  Glad to see the extension already happened.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 3 -
Post by: Gentlefish on November 11, 2013, 06:05:47 pm

((PFP)) No rush, Imp. We're talking more already than the game has been the last week or two, and I'm willing to extend at least once more if need be.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 3
Post by: zombie urist on November 11, 2013, 10:33:36 pm

Day ends Wednesday November 13th 9PM PST.

Imp - Pufferfish
squill -
bsnott -
Pufferfish -
Tiruin -

Not voting - bsnott, Imp, Tiruin, squill

0 to extend, 2 needed
0 to shorten, 3 needed

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 3 -
Post by: Imp on November 12, 2013, 10:12:40 am

Squill:

Quote from: Squill on November 10, 2013, 04:42:52 pm

People not wanting to go against you is all well and good if you are town, but the entire point of the game is that we really don't know who's side anyone is on except for ourselves. I think that the only way people should be excluded from questioning is if they present very good proof of them not being scum. Thus, I think that, whether intentionally or unintentionally, presenting yourself as a target that is too high to hit can be at best ineffective at achieving anything, but more probably detrimental to town.

What would you consider as "very good proof of [someone] not being scum", what could someone do or present to you that would convince you?  To me there are extremely few things which count as proof, and I'm wondering if we agree on them.

I don't understand what you mean about "presenting yourself as a target that is too high to hit", would you explain what you mean, and how it would work?

bsnott:
Asking you -again-.  Progress report on your reading of the thread, please.  Also, how much of what you've read makes sense?

Puff:

Quote from: Pufferfish on November 10, 2013, 08:46:20 pm

Why does cautious posting scare you? Squill has already mentioned that your posts are aggressive and may turn people away from responding to you. So not responding due to someone's perceived overbearing aggressiveness is scummy?

You said you read all the thread?  If you want to double check my answers about this, I suggest you double check Squill's posts, from the start of the game onwards.

Squill has been cautious all game, with everyone.  He has not taken strong stances for most of the game, not spoken his mind with any depth, not made many cases, not been very active in Scumhunting.  He has occasionally made comments about observations, but he has rarely taken any actions I can understand as attempts to get more information.  That's 'bad' because Scum can win by playing passively (they don't have to find any hidden secrets, they just need to not get dead), but Town usually cannot win by passive play (Scum cannot be counted on to find themselves).  Additionally, by being so self contained, so cautious, it's made it extremely difficult for me to get a real feel for Squill's intentions and goals - that's a big concern to me because I've been trying for essentially this entire game to.

That 'scares me' because we have a job to do - if we're Town.  And if we fail to do it, Town is likely to lose.  Scum have no reason to Scumhunt except to hide, and what they do isn't actually Scumhunting, they're doing everything BUT effectively Scumhunting - they can put any amount of attention, focus, and work into anything but finding the real Scum and that's going to work just fine for them - long as they don't get lynched for whatever they do.

Playing cautious is Scummy, because it's not a very effective way to find Scum.  Squill has also not answered most of my questions very directly/most of his answers do not actually answer my questions.  Scum can have a hard time interacting with others, they have to constantly keep in mind that they have to hide their 'real goals', which are the complete opposite of what they are trying to show.  Granted, deep introverts can also have issues with that - but deep introverts can also be given a Scum role.  So the search can be a bit difficult, but it's very much worth doing, especially in lylo when there can be no further mistakes.

Quote from: Pufferfish on November 10, 2013, 08:46:20 pm

BSnott

Quote from: bsnott on November 10, 2013, 08:36:15 pm

@Pufferfish You may have previously stated this, but what is your list?

I know I posted it. But I can't find to to quote it, so:

Imp
Tiruin/Squill
You

Here's that previously posted list:

Quote from: Pufferfish on November 06, 2013, 12:43:45 am

My list goes:
Imp - Now, because I can see the case built by Deathsword.
BSnott - Mr. Zero was reeaallll quiet during all of that.
Squill - You kept a steady, if slow post pace.
Tiruin - You picked up DS's place. DS had a hell of a solid case.

Quote from: Pufferfish on November 11, 2013, 03:57:22 am

As soon as I realize and make known that I believe that Death Sword had a case, she starts splicing out my words and her posts become exponentially larger.

Almost as if she were afraid or even angry that I might be close to the truth of her role.

You provide me much to react to, and much to question you about - and I do - and your response appears to state that you are considering ONLY the size of my response to you, not any of the content (did you also consider the size of your posts to me, when you were deciding what to mention or not for your "Spoiler: Recent events!"?).

Re:  Your "Spoiler: What I've gleaned from this."

You restate your take on Deathsword's case against me, without any consideration of my response to your first statement of your case.  Your spoiler is literally a partial summary of your first post's case - you do not say one word about anything said in my response, not to examine weaker points in your case in case anything Deathsword had said was or may have been inaccurate - not to attempt to strengthen your case, to show any connections that you see to further statements from me that you believe support Deathsword's accusations.

Quote from: Pufferfish on November 11, 2013, 03:57:22 am

So, yes, from this information, I believe Imp to be guilty.

Instead you attempt to wear Deathsword's accusations as 'whole cloth', perfect and complete exactly as is - Puff, you're dressing in the Emperor's (old) New Clothes and it shows.

Is this post of yours in answer to my question,

Quote from: Imp on November 09, 2013, 06:32:02 am

Care to explain that [Deathsword's] case in your own words?

If so, you have chosen to do so by considering -only- your interpretation of the posts of D2, and without any consideration of any possible misunderstandings (be they yours, Deathsword's, or mine); without considering anything I said in answer to your initial post in support of the Deathsword's case.

See, Town don't need to lynch 'person'.  They need to lynch 'Scum' - and especially when in Lylo, a mistake is game over, Scum win.  Explain, 'Town-Puff', why you feel there is no need to examine anything other than what you have already examined, why you choose to disregard any other information that may support or disprove any part or even the entirety of 'your' case?  Considering that a mistake made in lynching now will end the game with a Scum win, what justification do you see for failing to consider your assumptions and beliefs?

Because if someone is lying - through direct falsehood, through misrepresentation of facts or through holding unreasonable opinions that they refuse to reexamine - such greatly increases the likelihood that person showing that behavior is Scum.  It would be wise for you to explore interaction with me, to test and verify 'your' case.  By appearing to ignore information that questions 'your' case, you weaken it greatly - and appear increasingly Scummy.

Except you don't completely ignore that information.  You do 'use' one part of it.  Total volume of words.  You attempt to base at least a portion of your 'case' - and this one is at least in part "yours in truth" because you're actually adding information to it instead of just taking wholesale what another has said and supporting that - you base your additional information on the idea that a greater volume of words is Scummy, and conciseness is not.  You're not even talking about content - you're actually talking about word count.

Explain your reasoning.  Please.


Tiruin:  An actual answer is coming to you, but I am so exhausted (and my day starts so soon) that it's not coming this post.  Probably tonight.  Maybe today, if time allows while I'm at work.  You explain at least some of your thinking that I was asking to see in your recent answer, but I am not able at this time to properly follow and analyze it, so it's got to wait.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 3 -
Post by: Tiruin on November 12, 2013, 10:49:45 am

Quote from: Imp on November 12, 2013, 10:12:40 am

Tiruin:  An actual answer is coming to you, but I am so exhausted (and my day starts so soon) that it's not coming this post.  Probably tonight.  Maybe today, if time allows while I'm at work.  You explain at least some of your thinking that I was asking to see in your recent answer, but I am not able at this time to properly follow and analyze it, so it's got to wait.

If it aids you, you don't have to lay it out in formal narrative. I can't see your ties with Puffin--this being one of my suspicions from before on a wholly unannounced note and kept to myself--and that if such were a bus-maneuver, given how rationalizing is part of the fore of your playstyle (as well as me detecting a significant...note on how you to this), that is quite a darn well played bus.

I don't see it as that, however. One or the other is town or not, and right now the poison-fish is scum'd.

Quote from: Pufferfish on November 11, 2013, 12:53:42 am

Tiruin:

You're right. I do have to vote at some point. Let's get the pressure going. I'll rebuild Deathsword's case and make my vote.

After I get my cookie dough.

Also this has been a weird game as it comes to BMs, as far as I can understand. Looots of absence. So you're not a bad IC.

So why did you FoS her anyway? Why not vote her?

---

Quote from: Squill on November 11, 2013, 03:52:35 pm

I think that when I made that vote against Imp I was in a rather bad mood, and did not want to deal with people. I was posting because I felt like I had to, but I really didn't feel like spending too much time on it. So yes, I agree with you. As for the "So then what?", I'm not sure.

Posting...because you felt like you had to? What does that entail and mean?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 3 -
Post by: Squill on November 12, 2013, 03:40:44 pm

Quote from: Tiruin on November 12, 2013, 10:49:45 am

Quote from: Squill on November 11, 2013, 03:52:35 pm

I think that when I made that vote against Imp I was in a rather bad mood, and did not want to deal with people. I was posting because I felt like I had to, but I really didn't feel like spending too much time on it. So yes, I agree with you. As for the "So then what?", I'm not sure.

Posting...because you felt like you had to? What does that entail and mean?

@TiruinIt was in the mindset that "I don't want to play right now, but people will get annoyed if I don't post."
I was posting because I like to do at least one post per day, and I felt that anything is better than nothing.

Quote from: Imp on November 12, 2013, 10:12:40 am

Squill:

Quote from: Squill on November 10, 2013, 04:42:52 pm

People not wanting to go against you is all well and good if you are town, but the entire point of the game is that we really don't know who's side anyone is on except for ourselves. I think that the only way people should be excluded from questioning is if they present very good proof of them not being scum. Thus, I think that, whether intentionally or unintentionally, presenting yourself as a target that is too high to hit can be at best ineffective at achieving anything, but more probably detrimental to town.

What would you consider as "very good proof of [someone] not being scum", what could someone do or present to you that would convince you?  To me there are extremely few things which count as proof, and I'm wondering if we agree on them.
I don't understand what you mean about "presenting yourself as a target that is too high to hit", would you explain what you mean, and how it would work?

@Imp: The only example that comes to mind is bsnott's recent situation. If he was scum, then he just threw away the game.
HOWEVER, something just occurred to me: bsnott can still be scum, but only if you are scum as well.

As for a target too high to hit, I mean you are aggressive and thorough in basically every post you make; people do not want to accuse you, because nobody wants to deal with the ensuing scrutiny. As probably the most frequent poster, with the longest posts, nobody wants to spend their time in the game embroiled in conflict with you. Which, if you're a scum, is a very good thing. Do you understand what I am saying?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 3 -
Post by: Tiruin on November 12, 2013, 06:55:29 pm

Oho.

Intersteting. Very intersteting indeed.

Quote from: Squill on November 12, 2013, 03:40:44 pm

Quote from: Imp on November 12, 2013, 10:12:40 am

Squill:

Quote from: Squill on November 10, 2013, 04:42:52 pm

People not wanting to go against you is all well and good if you are town, but the entire point of the game is that we really don't know who's side anyone is on except for ourselves. I think that the only way people should be excluded from questioning is if they present very good proof of them not being scum. Thus, I think that, whether intentionally or unintentionally, presenting yourself as a target that is too high to hit can be at best ineffective at achieving anything, but more probably detrimental to town.

What would you consider as "very good proof of [someone] not being scum", what could someone do or present to you that would convince you?  To me there are extremely few things which count as proof, and I'm wondering if we agree on them.
I don't understand what you mean about "presenting yourself as a target that is too high to hit", would you explain what you mean, and how it would work?

@Imp: The only example that comes to mind is bsnott's recent situation. If he was scum, then he just threw away the game.
HOWEVER, something just occurred to me: bsnott can still be scum, but only if you are scum as well.

As for a target too high to hit, I mean you are aggressive and thorough in basically every post you make; people do not want to accuse you, because nobody wants to deal with the ensuing scrutiny. As probably the most frequent poster, with the longest posts, nobody wants to spend their time in the game embroiled in conflict with you. Which, if you're a scum, is a very good thing. Do you understand what I am saying?

I have the visual impairment of a summer fruit bat. So I need insight. Where did the first bolded sentence get its basis from? How does the secondary sentence relate to that--you didn't expound on it and I can't see why or how the proceeding paragraph makes sense.

Because you poke at Imp's generality and not into what exactly in her posts she gives.

The third bolded sentence is an outright piece of undermining, as I'm accusing Imp, however we're debating it. How can you not see people accusing Imp? The whole thing is contrary to recent events as you also have just accused her earlier of things which aren't even game-anchored plus a vote. Emotional appeal? I do remember that from the start of today, sir.

Quote

Quote from: Tiruin on November 12, 2013, 10:49:45 am

Quote from: Squill on November 11, 2013, 03:52:35 pm

I think that when I made that vote against Imp I was in a rather bad mood, and did not want to deal with people. I was posting because I felt like I had to, but I really didn't feel like spending too much time on it. So yes, I agree with you. As for the "So then what?", I'm not sure.

Posting...because you felt like you had to? What does that entail and mean?

@TiruinIt was in the mindset that "I don't want to play right now, but people will get annoyed if I don't post."
I was posting because I like to do at least one post per day, and I felt that anything is better than nothing.

Because this is what you said, aye? You said this with a vote and backtracked and withdrew when an accusation--a simple one prodding on what you did--was issued.

I will have to punch you on the underlined sentence. I've done and was nominated-by myself, o'course-for the most frequent poster on the recent Mafia games, and people have gone into sticky sticks with me. Stating a 'nobody' seems too broad and too...unspecific, to be some kind of innocent persuasion.

Are you discarding Imp from your list of suspects? Or are you passive-aggressively poking at her? I want to see detail behind your words, cause this sonar I've got only has as much range as what I hear back from you.

I don't understand what you're saying, as you don't back it up. For me, you are going by what your response to my query is-posting for the sake of posting-as this thing you've got here has no backing but hot air.

ChemTip: Helium expands when heated and follows the gas laws. You wanna rise? Build your foundation on hard tacks as people will most probably see the gap in logic from the ground until you. Granted, you aren't flammable at least.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 3 -
Post by: Squill on November 12, 2013, 08:27:55 pm

Quote from: Tiruin on November 12, 2013, 06:55:29 pm

I have the visual impairment of a summer fruit bat. So I need insight. Where did the first bolded sentence get its basis from? How does the secondary sentence relate to that--you didn't expound on it and I can't see why or how the proceeding paragraph makes sense.

Imp's reasoning for bsnott being indubitably town made sense at first. If Imp was lynched, scum wins. By bsnott extending the game, he effectively prevented scum from winning then and there. But there is a problem with this:
If Imp is scum, then it is still entirely possible for bsnott to be scum, as that means that bsnott was not preventing scum victory, but assisting it.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 3 -
Post by: Tiruin on November 12, 2013, 08:37:44 pm

...Yeeeaahh that still doesn't make sense how you worded

Quote

@Imp: The only example that comes to mind is bsnott's recent situation. If he was scum, then he just threw away the game.
HOWEVER, something just occurred to me: bsnott can still be scum, but only if you are scum as well.

Quote from: Squill on November 12, 2013, 08:27:55 pm

Imp's reasoning for bsnott being indubitably town made sense at first. If Imp was lynched, scum wins. By bsnott extending the game, he effectively prevented scum from winning then and there. But there is a problem with this:
If Imp is scum, then it is still entirely possible for bsnott to be scum, as that means that bsnott was not preventing scum victory, but assisting it.

How did he effectively prevent a scum win? As in, effectively?
And that also means he was trying to save a buddy because of the carpy reasons people put on Imp at the time, huh? PS: Check his votes before that.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 3 -
Post by: Squill on November 12, 2013, 08:52:32 pm

Quote from: Tiruin on November 12, 2013, 08:37:44 pm

...Yeeeaahh that still doesn't make sense how you worded

Quote

@Imp: The only example that comes to mind is bsnott's recent situation. If he was scum, then he just threw away the game.
HOWEVER, something just occurred to me: bsnott can still be scum, but only if you are scum as well.

Quote from: Squill on November 12, 2013, 08:27:55 pm

Imp's reasoning for bsnott being indubitably town made sense at first. If Imp was lynched, scum wins. By bsnott extending the game, he effectively prevented scum from winning then and there. But there is a problem with this:
If Imp is scum, then it is still entirely possible for bsnott to be scum, as that means that bsnott was not preventing scum victory, but assisting it.

How did he effectively prevent a scum win? As in, effectively?
And that also means he was trying to save a buddy because of the carpy reasons people put on Imp at the time, huh? PS: Check his votes before that.

I think you're just confusing me now. Correct me if I'm wrong, but this is the situation as I understand it: According to Imp's argument of bsnott's innocence (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4750747#msg4750747), by extending bsnott prevents Imp from being lynched by extending. If he was scum, he could have not extended, letting Imp get lynched and winning for scum.
The problem comes in when you consider this: If both Imp and bsnott are scum, then this proof falls apart, and becomes a convenient way to declare one scum as town.
I'm really not sure how much clearer I can make this.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 3
Post by: zombie urist on November 12, 2013, 09:56:08 pm

Day ends Wednesday November 13th 9PM PST. ~26 hours from this post

Imp - Pufferfish
squill -
bsnott -
Pufferfish -
Tiruin -

Not voting - bsnott, Imp, Tiruin, squill

0 to extend, 2 needed
0 to shorten, 3 needed

bsnott has been prodded.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 3 -
Post by: bsnott on November 12, 2013, 11:21:50 pm

I'm on my smartphone, so I'm gonna make this quick. I need to vote, as I can't tomorrow. I knows exactly what this is going to look like. Pufferfish. I know, he's voting on Imp. If both me and Imp are scum, this will look like I'm hopping on a guy for hitting out the other mafia. This is my only chance to vote, and he is literally my only option. I'm sorry if this is taken against me and I ruin the game for all of us. I hope you all understand  the reason for my short explanation.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 3 -
Post by: Gentlefish on November 13, 2013, 01:17:26 am

Imp:

Quote from: Imp on November 12, 2013, 10:12:40 am

Is this post of yours in answer to my question,

Quote from: Imp on November 09, 2013, 06:32:02 am

Care to explain that [Deathsword's] case in your own words?

If so, you have chosen to do so by considering -only- your interpretation of the posts of D2, and without any consideration of any possible misunderstandings (be they yours, Deathsword's, or mine); without considering anything I said in answer to your initial post in support of the Deathsword's case.

See, Town don't need to lynch 'person'.  They need to lynch 'Scum' - and especially when in Lylo, a mistake is game over, Scum win.  Explain, 'Town-Puff', why you feel there is no need to examine anything other than what you have already examined, why you choose to disregard any other information that may support or disprove any part or even the entirety of 'your' case?  Considering that a mistake made in lynching now will end the game with a Scum win, what justification do you see for failing to consider your assumptions and beliefs?

Because if someone is lying - through direct falsehood, through misrepresentation of facts or through holding unreasonable opinions that they refuse to reexamine - such greatly increases the likelihood that person showing that behavior is Scum.  It would be wise for you to explore interaction with me, to test and verify 'your' case.  By appearing to ignore information that questions 'your' case, you weaken it greatly - and appear increasingly Scummy.

Except you don't completely ignore that information.  You do 'use' one part of it.  Total volume of words.  You attempt to base at least a portion of your 'case' - and this one is at least in part "yours in truth" because you're actually adding information to it instead of just taking wholesale what another has said and supporting that - you base your additional information on the idea that a greater volume of words is Scummy, and conciseness is not.  You're not even talking about content - you're actually talking about word count.

Explain your reasoning.  Please.

Yes. I did explain Deathsword's case in my own words.

Obviously there is going to be misunderstandings. Deathsword is not here for me to ask him about it.

To answer:

Quote

why you choose to disregard any other information that may support or disprove any part or even the entirety of 'your' case?  Considering that a mistake made in lynching now will end the game with a Scum win, what justification do you see for failing to consider your assumptions and beliefs?

Consider it me trying to get a better read on you. I -have- been noticing a greater theme underlying your posts. Especially now more than ever, because it is lylo and I was acting belligerent. On its own, Deathsword's case is a great foundation but doesn't lead anywhere. You're trying to turn me away from it. I believe this is because I am on the right trail.

That theme I'm mentioning? You refer to yourself a lot. I can come up with at least five instances where you infer you are town. At least. And it's happened more and more recently, especially with and around BSnott.

In fact, you even say "I'm town" once. That was D3. Today. lylo. Saying "I'm town" isn't as impressive as "I'm the cop". But it's still roleclaiming. And you've been doing it subtly for a while.

Also, I must say, calling "holding unreasonable opinions that they refuse to reexamine" lying is quite silly. Because it's not. It's holding an unreasonable opinions that one refuses to reexamine. Which isn't lying. It's holding an opinion that may or may not be wrong.

And when it comes to total volume of words. Imp. Honestly.

How much of this (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4642894#msg4642894) post was really necessary? Or this (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4659525#msg4659525) one? And this (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4669460#msg4669460) one which was complained about?

The first was called the behemoth for good reason, and the second one even had just a single sentence quoted!

And, looking back, you were the main reason Kleril, a vanilla town, was lynched. After he unvoted you. Why did you change your mind about him after he unvoted you?

---

Tiruin:

Quote from: Tiruin on November 12, 2013, 10:49:45 am

I don't see it as that, however. One or the other is town or not, and right now the poison-fish is scum'd.

Quote from: Pufferfish on November 11, 2013, 12:53:42 am

Tiruin:

You're right. I do have to vote at some point. Let's get the pressure going. I'll rebuild Deathsword's case and make my vote.

After I get my cookie dough.

Also this has been a weird game as it comes to BMs, as far as I can understand. Looots of absence. So you're not a bad IC.

So why did you FoS her anyway? Why not vote her?

I was still assembling my case against her. I was also thinking I was keeping my pronouns straight, d'oh.
Why do you think I am scum? What made you think this could be a bus manouver?

---

BSnott:
Wow my list was bad. Sounds like you can't make it tomorrow at all but I must ask in case I survive:
What is (was) your case on me?
I'd still like to hear the answer posthumously in case I'm dead by the time you read this. Because this looks like a pre-emptive bandwagon to me.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 3 -
Post by: Tiruin on November 13, 2013, 01:52:21 am

Quote from: Squill on November 12, 2013, 08:52:32 pm

Quote from: Tiruin on November 12, 2013, 08:37:44 pm

...Yeeeaahh that still doesn't make sense how you worded

Quote

@Imp: The only example that comes to mind is bsnott's recent situation. If he was scum, then he just threw away the game.
HOWEVER, something just occurred to me: bsnott can still be scum, but only if you are scum as well.

Quote from: Squill on November 12, 2013, 08:27:55 pm

Imp's reasoning for bsnott being indubitably town made sense at first. If Imp was lynched, scum wins. By bsnott extending the game, he effectively prevented scum from winning then and there. But there is a problem with this:
If Imp is scum, then it is still entirely possible for bsnott to be scum, as that means that bsnott was not preventing scum victory, but assisting it.

How did he effectively prevent a scum win? As in, effectively?
And that also means he was trying to save a buddy because of the carpy reasons people put on Imp at the time, huh? PS: Check his votes before that.

I think you're just confusing me now. Correct me if I'm wrong, but this is the situation as I understand it: According to Imp's argument of bsnott's innocence (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4750747#msg4750747), by extending bsnott prevents Imp from being lynched by extending. If he was scum, he could have not extended, letting Imp get lynched and winning for scum.
The problem comes in when you consider this: If both Imp and bsnott are scum, then this proof falls apart, and becomes a convenient way to declare one scum as town.
I'm really not sure how much clearer I can make this.

...So you think that bsnott isn't scum perfectly because he did the right thing a player would do-extend the game so he/she can learn, huh. That's a pretty superficial idea.
I've stuff in another post on this, but it'll come later.

---

Puff

Quote

Obviously there is going to be misunderstandings. Deathsword is not here for me to ask him about it.

But I am. And I ask, once again, the following which you somehow missed.

Quote from: Tiruin on November 12, 2013, 10:49:45 am

So why did you FoS her anyway?

Quote from: Tiruin on November 10, 2013, 09:54:00 pm

What is your intent in doing such? Why so?

Your response is..

Quote

I was still assembling my case against her.

Really? You could've just voted her instead.
I will ask once more.
Why.

Next:

Quote from: Tiruin on November 11, 2013, 05:32:32 am

Pufferfish: Can you summarize your case on Imp? Let's say this is a regular game and the whole audience is looking at said case to better expound on brevity-in-context. What'cha think on what would apply and appeal to the rest.

You've laid out the context-what is your jurisdiction and/or response?

Could you give your piece of mind on her responses to me and vice versa? What is your take on us?

Quote

In fact, you even say "I'm town" once. That was D3. Today. lylo. Saying "I'm town" isn't as impressive as "I'm the cop". But it's still roleclaiming. And you've been doing it subtly for a while.

This could better be made if you linked the note instead of shouting it out as a generality.
Let's roleclaim and say I'm town.
I'm town~~
But even if she's been saying it (I mean, nothing wrong with saying it. Everyone, as is the general notion and as from traditional teaching, should be 'town'.) what's wrong with it? Is she pushing it DOWN YER THROAT? D:
No. No she ain't.

Yonder case above is based on that note where you spoilerrifically touch DeathSword, yet it is fraught with more of the feeling of 'I show you details, discuss' instead of 'I have evidence pertinent to this case which gives me x conclusion and forwards this train of thought to be true'.

The case at hand. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4754909#msg4754909)

Quote

And, looking back, you were the main reason Kleril, a vanilla town, was lynched. After he unvoted you. Why did you change your mind about him after he unvoted you?

Back it up. You're accusing Imp because she lynched Kleril after he unvoted her?

---

---

Quote from: Pufferfish on November 13, 2013, 01:17:26 am

BSnott:
Wow my list was bad. Sounds like you can't make it tomorrow at all but I must ask in case I survive:
What is (was) your case on me?
I'd still like to hear the answer posthumously in case I'm dead by the time you read this. Because this looks like a pre-emptive bandwagon to me.

...You do know that if you're town, and if you're dead, then the game's over and up right? And how is something a 'pre-emptive' bandwagon there? Why aren't you attacking the post instead of detailing one of the probable inferences that comes because of it.

..Hah, pre-emptive bandwagon. :P

Quote from: @Tiruin

Why do you think I am scum? What made you think this could be a bus manouver?

Probably when I've noted the malevolent silliness (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4735332#msg4735332) which came with your predecessor's vote, and the follow through by your buddy bro. Continued (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4737273#msg4737273) there, and (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4738985#msg4738985) here, with a correction being I did not notice (failed to actualize..) that Imp shifted her vote when talking about the whole Darviness back then.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 3 -
Post by: Gentlefish on November 13, 2013, 05:05:36 am

@Tiruin:
I'm gonna try to answer this tonight, but please forgive me and point out what I forget. It's late.

Quote from: Tiruin on November 13, 2013, 01:52:21 am

Puff

Quote

Obviously there is going to be misunderstandings. Deathsword is not here for me to ask him about it.

But I am. And I ask, once again, the following which you somehow missed.

Quote from: Tiruin on November 12, 2013, 10:49:45 am

So why did you FoS her anyway?

Quote from: Tiruin on November 10, 2013, 09:54:00 pm

What is your intent in doing such? Why so?

Your response is..

Quote

I was still assembling my case against her.

Really? You could've just voted her instead.
I will ask once more.
Why.

In simplest matters, I was suspicious. That's what I assumed the FoS is for. I was suspicious but I wasn't confident enough for a vote. Now I am.

That's how my brain worked anyway.

Quote

Next:

Quote from: Tiruin on November 11, 2013, 05:32:32 am

Pufferfish: Can you summarize your case on Imp? Let's say this is a regular game and the whole audience is looking at said case to better expound on brevity-in-context. What'cha think on what would apply and appeal to the rest.

You've laid out the context-what is your jurisdiction and/or response?

Could you give your piece of mind on her responses to me and vice versa? What is your take on us?

Quote

In fact, you even say "I'm town" once. That was D3. Today. lylo. Saying "I'm town" isn't as impressive as "I'm the cop". But it's still roleclaiming. And you've been doing it subtly for a while.

This could better be made if you linked the note instead of shouting it out as a generality.
Let's roleclaim and say I'm town.
I'm town~~
But even if she's been saying it (I mean, nothing wrong with saying it. Everyone, as is the general notion and as from traditional teaching, should be 'town'.) what's wrong with it? Is she pushing it DOWN YER THROAT? D:
No. No she ain't.

Roleclaim:

Quote from: Imp on November 09, 2013, 07:44:50 am

This matters because I know I'm Town, and because of bsnott's actions when Scum could have won the game, I know he's Town.  There's only three Town left, and I know who two are.  That's big to me.  That gives me GREAT hope, the most hope I've had since I was the blithering idiot who believed she'd spotted both Scum on D1 (and was wrong about both picks).

Spoiler: other instances (click to show/hide)

this (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4734795#msg4734795) post.

Quote from: Imp on October 10, 2013, 06:24:22 pm

I do not know that Kleril, Scum or Town, would do this.  As Town, I believe I wouldn't do it - my dying in that circumstance gives Town more than returning us to the tie under those circumstances.  But we are possibly leaving the option in Kleril's hands as things are now.

There's three. I can hunt down the other two tomorrow if you like.

Quote

Yonder case above is based on that note where you spoilerrifically touch DeathSword, yet it is fraught with more of the feeling of 'I show you details, discuss' instead of 'I have evidence pertinent to this case which gives me x conclusion and forwards this train of thought to be true'.

The case at hand. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4754909#msg4754909)

Quote

And, looking back, you were the main reason Kleril, a vanilla town, was lynched. After he unvoted you. Why did you change your mind about him after he unvoted you?

Back it up. You're accusing Imp because she lynched Kleril after he unvoted her?

Absolutely. Doesn't that strike you as weird?

Spoiler: some related stuff. (click to show/hide)

Quote from: kleril on October 02, 2013, 11:17:57 am

I'm taking a heavy gamble with this faith in you. At least for my own purposes it will help me think through the actions and motivations of at least one player. You are my mental anchor at this point, and all my thoughts on who's town and who's scum are built off the foundation that at least one person is town, them being you. I think this may help the rest of the town as well, as your trustworthiness is being backed up by whatever trust I have built up in others' minds. This means that a couple things may happen. You may be even more of a mafia target, considering you are one of the largest town contributors at this point, but on the other hand, your voice never being silenced would raise suspicion. Either way, if you survive, and you are in fact town, your contributions will pull us through this game. If you die, however, your death confirms your town-ness, and brings complete legitimacy to all your concerns. On the flip side of this faith comes the issue of my being wrong: If you are scum, and the rest of the town shares my viewpoint, we're done. Good game, handshakes all around.

Quote from: Imp on October 04, 2013, 03:45:33 am

Kleril is my top Scum pick.  I think there is about a 96% likelihood that he is Scum, and feel about 90% sure that I am right in my assessment of him and his play.

Quote from: kleril on October 04, 2013, 11:17:11 am

@Imp's behemoth attacking me (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4659525#msg4659525):
2) This is faith I have placed in you, based on how you've been playing. I have no fact to back it up, but this is what I believe. If I had facts (i.e. if I was scum), things would be different, and this convincing would have been from post one, and not 5 or so pages in. Use your head.

3) It's day one, and where votes have been placed has been established as more of a scumhunting tool than anything. Using the votecount alone, and not the posts to justify them, is useless.

Also what in the hell is scum chat?

Quote from: Imp on October 04, 2013, 01:42:01 pm

Quote from: kleril on October 04, 2013, 11:17:11 am

faith

Kleril, I really want to vote correctly.

If you are Town, simply act it....  I.E. -> DO YOUR JOB.

That way you help ensure the win for your team, no matter when or how you die.

Notice how she say no matter how or when. She used her large posts to influence a vote on Kleril.

Quote

Quote from: Pufferfish on November 13, 2013, 01:17:26 am

BSnott:
Wow my list was bad. Sounds like you can't make it tomorrow at all but I must ask in case I survive:
What is (was) your case on me?
I'd still like to hear the answer posthumously in case I'm dead by the time you read this. Because this looks like a pre-emptive bandwagon to me.

...You do know that if you're town, and if you're dead, then the game's over and up right? And how is something a 'pre-emptive' bandwagon there? Why aren't you attacking the post instead of detailing one of the probable inferences that comes because of it.

..Hah, pre-emptive bandwagon. :P

Quote from: @Tiruin

Why do you think I am scum? What made you think this could be a bus manouver?

Probably when I've noted the malevolent silliness (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4735332#msg4735332) which came with your predecessor's vote, and the follow through by your buddy bro. Continued (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4737273#msg4737273) there, and (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4738985#msg4738985) here, with a correction being I did not notice (failed to actualize..) that Imp shifted her vote when talking about the whole Darviness back then.

Well BSnott knows where Imp's gonna put her vote :P And if I'm right, Squill may actually not be too far from correct, either.

Did I catch everything? If not I'll catch them all tomorrow. Tired.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 3
Post by: zombie urist on November 13, 2013, 02:26:27 pm

Day ends Wednesday November 13th 9PM PST. ~9.5 hours from this post

Imp - Pufferfish
squill -
bsnott -
Pufferfish - bsnott
Tiruin -

Not voting - Imp, Tiruin, squill

0 to extend, 2 needed
0 to shorten, 3 needed

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 3 -
Post by: Gentlefish on November 13, 2013, 02:27:50 pm

Oh yeah, as and to post-mortem, this thread doesn't get locked when the game is over right? So he could still answer even after the game is over when I'm lynched.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 3 -
Post by: Squill on November 13, 2013, 03:42:47 pm

Quote from: Tiruin on November 13, 2013, 01:52:21 am

..So you think that bsnott isn't scum perfectly because he did the right thing a player would do-extend the game so he/she can learn, huh. That's a pretty superficial idea.
I've stuff in another post on this, but it'll come later.

This is getting a little bit frustrating. I am not saying that bsnott is definitely town, I'm saying that IN IMP'S SCENARIO SPECIFICALLY, the logic still does not work, UNLESS WE KNOW THAT IMP IS TOWN FOR SURE. We do not, therefore IMP'S CASE IS IN NO WAY THE FINAL WORD ON BSNOTT'S ROLE. I really hope that is clear enough, because I'm getting a little bit tired of this.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 3 -
Post by: Imp on November 13, 2013, 04:08:54 pm

Posting from work.  Life's rather hell right now.  I'd like another extension.

Tiruin, I'm still chewing over your answers.  I'll continue to do so today between work tasks, if there's time between work tasks, and more tonight.  I expect to be posting again tonight.  Other questions/concerns I'll address tonight as well, assuming extension allows.  Been some very interesting reading this last 24 hoursish of play.

If the extension doesn't pass, I'll be watching and placing a vote before the deadline.  I'm not placing it now because I am still not ready to move forward.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 3 -
Post by: Gentlefish on November 13, 2013, 05:43:49 pm

Like I said, I'll offer one more extension. Extend. But this day has to end at some point.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 3 -
Post by: Tiruin on November 13, 2013, 05:57:51 pm

Extend
Just popped in to say that.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 3 -
Post by: zombie urist on November 13, 2013, 06:00:36 pm

Day extended to Friday, November 15th 9PM PST.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 3 -
Post by: Tiruin on November 13, 2013, 06:08:58 pm

Quote from: Pufferfish on November 13, 2013, 02:27:50 pm

Oh yeah, as and to post-mortem, this thread doesn't get locked when the game is over right? So he could still answer even after the game is over when I'm lynched.

Yeah. Y'know ,I saw your earlier note as a HUGE scumslip.

Quote from: Pufferfish on November 13, 2013, 05:05:36 am

Quote

Quote from: Pufferfish on November 13, 2013, 01:17:26 am

BSnott:
Wow my list was bad. Sounds like you can't make it tomorrow at all but I must ask in case I survive:
What is (was) your case on me?
I'd still like to hear the answer posthumously in case I'm dead by the time you read this. Because this looks like a pre-emptive bandwagon to me.

...You do know that if you're town, and if you're dead, then the game's over and up right? And how is something a 'pre-emptive' bandwagon there? Why aren't you attacking the post instead of detailing one of the probable inferences that comes because of it.

..Hah, pre-emptive bandwagon. :P

Quote from: @Tiruin

Why do you think I am scum? What made you think this could be a bus manouver?

Probably when I've noted the malevolent silliness (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4735332#msg4735332) which came with your predecessor's vote, and the follow through by your buddy bro. Continued (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4737273#msg4737273) there, and (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4738985#msg4738985) here, with a correction being I did not notice (failed to actualize..) that Imp shifted her vote when talking about the whole Darviness back then.

Well BSnott knows where Imp's gonna put her vote :P And if I'm right, Squill may actually not be too far from correct, either.

Did I catch everything? If not I'll catch them all tomorrow. Tired.

No, wait, you never addressed it. Still, point stands as it contradicts what you said earlier here and can't be logical that you'd think that otherwise.

Unless I'm missing something. And I still can't get your pre-emptive bandwagon, and I've a feeling that you're being...intentionally picky on some of those questions. Why aren't all my questions being answered? That makes me sad.



Anyway. It doesn't get locked when game's over-no thread does unless something really bad in-game things were said and caused Toady One to bring down justice......Like in that one game wherein I'm not sure to link but it provides something VERY GOOD on where people's tongues should be and tact lines be drawn.

..Eh, so no. End-game discussion happens after game. That's when the drama unfolds, usually. And then the remarks, and pats on the back, and veiled daggers being drawn, and then hugs as we cut the cake with said daggers. 'Tis a happy community out of game, but when in-game, we go at each other's throats.

Helps attack accuracy and all that motor skill training.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 3 -
Post by: Gentlefish on November 13, 2013, 06:34:41 pm

Haha, I asked you which ones I missed. Which ones did I miss, could you point them out or ask them again? I will answer them.

fake-edit OH I CAUGHT IT it just ended with a period. Heh, my NP++ only catches questionmarks.

I called it a pre-emptive bandwagon because I feel he's voting under the assumption that I -am- going to get voted on by Imp, and provided little to no explanation. I mean, I suppose I could get on his case for that. But it's hard to tear into a person without anything to sink my teeth into. Hence the leading question. I want to know his reasoning behind putting a vote on me with little explanation.

And I was hoping it wouldn't get locked, because I really would have liked to hear his answer if the day wasn't extended.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 3 -
Post by: Gentlefish on November 13, 2013, 06:35:18 pm

And I'm sure I still missed one. Please let me know which.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 3
Post by: zombie urist on November 14, 2013, 02:05:24 am

Day extended to Friday November 15th at 11:59:59 PST.

Imp - Pufferfish
squill -
bsnott -
Pufferfish - bsnott
Tiruin -

Not voting - Imp, Tiruin, squill

0 to extend, 2 needed
0 to shorten, 3 needed

I have two big projects due Friday so notice day now ends midnight instead of 9 PM.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 3 -
Post by: Tiruin on November 14, 2013, 05:25:34 am

Quote from: Pufferfish on November 13, 2013, 06:34:41 pm

I called it a pre-emptive bandwagon because I feel he's voting under the assumption that I -am- going to get voted on by Imp[...]

So..you're trying to predict his move by accusing him of it and not putting anything behind it?

...Uh huh. Ok.

So your case on Imp is..well, the gist is that you think she's hiding something of malicious intent in her WoT's, and that such WoT's are a good smokescreen. Anything else I've missed?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 3
Post by: zombie urist on November 15, 2013, 01:54:22 am

Day ends Friday November 15th at 11:59:59 PST. ~25 hours from this post.

Imp - Pufferfish
squill -
bsnott -
Pufferfish - bsnott
Tiruin -

Not voting - Imp, Tiruin, squill

0 to extend, 2 needed
0 to shorten, 3 needed

Day ends in ~25 hours.

Everyone should post more.  >:(

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 3 -
Post by: Superblackcat on November 15, 2013, 03:23:48 am

*BOO*


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Did I scare anyone? Did I?

Aww :(

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 3 -
Post by: notquitethere on November 15, 2013, 05:29:57 am

Quote from: Superblackcat on November 15, 2013, 03:23:48 am

*BOO*

Spoiler: I think we need these guys (click to show/hide)

(http://static.giantbomb.com/uploads/original/0/2986/954516-ghostbusters.jpg)

Quote from: zombie urist on November 15, 2013, 01:54:22 am

Everyone should post more.  >:(

I don't think ZU meant us, SBC.

---

Darvi, Tiruin, you guys got some IC advice for MYLO?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 3 -
Post by: Imp on November 15, 2013, 05:41:42 am

Aww.  SBC never bah boo posted upon his death.  There's not a time limit for that post, is there?

You never answered Tiruin when she asked you to post in the thread, NQT.  Think she'll answer you?


Everyone playing in the thread -  I am working on my answer to here.  I believe I can get it posted tonight before I sleep.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 3 -
Post by: Tiruin on November 15, 2013, 04:23:12 pm

Quote from: Imp on November 15, 2013, 05:41:42 am

You never answered Tiruin when she asked you to post in the thread, NQT.  Think she'll answer you?

O_o
Err, NQT is the scum IC. He's busy being evil somewhere else.

*answers NQT*
*Tiruin = 1, NQT = 0*

*hugs lucky black cat?*

---

Quote from: notquitethere on November 15, 2013, 05:29:57 am

Darvi, Tiruin, you guys got some IC advice for MYLO?

AHA SCUMSLIP! It's LYLO, bro.
I've said what I've said--check back, ensure WHO YOU'RE TARGETING is WHO YOU'RE TARGETING.

But given the ambient silence, let me explain myself given the time left.

While I've either been suspecting Puffin or Imp-the latter falls to the side as towny, given her actions and the essence of her presumable WoTs. The former..well, I was ambivalent--there were minor unclassified tells such as using the FoS instead of a vote on a crucial day like this. Where I'm coming from, the FoS connotates...a lack of assertiveness. While there is a note on Puffy's innocence (that being his..multiple misuse of it, or twice using it in a post, or getting the BM-lock-thingy wrong..) checks out as genuine, the mere idea that using an FoS at this time is...at best, transparent. At worst, a hint of being scum due to the process of communication between voting someone, and sticking that vote on someone.

Given the order of current votes, Pufferfish is whom I'm laying mine on given his reasons under attack on Imp. I've to argue that sometimes his train of logic doesn't have a straightforward acuity (...pre-emptive bandwagon?), or lacking the context behind it after being asked, but in how he forwards the case against Imp (Yes I fully see DS' case. And like I said before..it's lacking in itself. Pretty much due to RL stuff given its brevity) as well as the proceeding follow ups.

Checking on bsnott, there's not much I can say for him other than him being a representative replacement, given how late it was. (And yes, I'm seeing him extending as a null tell. Any good player [Don't 'Any true scotsman' me here] IN A BM would wish to extend and seeing such as a tell would be fallible. Contrary to that, people hop on that thinking; something which I have to disagree with.

The purpose of this is learning. The win/loss is secondary. It's like an unranked match in chess wherein you learn either way until you get into the ranked matches!)

I look at Mr.Zero's work instead. Which said work is to be withheld given the moment at hand but from a skim (unable to link), I don't detect that much discrepancy that makes him stand out as scum.

On Imp, while there are some discrepancies in her notes, something which she's genuinely open to talk about which is more of a null tell given how it reflects character, it becomes a minor town tell in how she proceeds it. Yea, it is a good characteristic to inspect details down to the letter, and even better when you can give it concisely and in full view of mutual understanding, but in how you present it? Mm, I guess you know where I'm heading with Imp.

Timecount?

Quote from: zombie urist on November 15, 2013, 01:54:22 am

Day ends in ~25 hours.

Everyone should post more.  >:(

Quote

November 15, 2013, 04:20:36 pm

Good job, Tiruin. Post late. Woohoo, you.
Timezones.

Extend until Monday.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 3 -
Post by: Imp on November 15, 2013, 04:25:29 pm

One additional Scummy thing that Rolepgeek did (which doesn't say anything about Puff, except that Puff, in his 'careful and unbiased readthrough' didn't see fit to discuss), is where, and stated why, Rolepgeek unvotes at the end of D2.  Bolding is mine.

Quote from: Rolepgeek on October 21, 2013, 09:35:31 pm

AND NOW FOR THE IMPORTANT PART DUR DUR DURRR
Since it's a tie, I need to vote someone, to break it at the least. I'm not actually going to vote Imp, since I'm starting to think she has important things to make clear, and I want to give her a chance to cut stuff down so she isn't fucking with my eyes anymore. >.> So I'll vote Superblackcat, as they(genderwhutidunno) look to have been active-lurking for the last long while, without really contributing. Plus, you know, the whole ground that's already been trodden upon stuff with buddy-stabbing. :D

If this is true, then Rolepgeek 'suddenly' is starting to think I have important things to make clear - that he wants to continue our discussion.  But he doesn't seek an extension (until I challenge him about why not, then he claims he forgot to include the extend) - he doesn't want more time for the conversation - there's more than one way to 'deal with a tie', and the one he chooses is to vote for someone he's not been focused on the entire game, and he does it with a 'grin' and he includes reasons which were proven wrong (buddy stuff, I believe, is reference to my case including Cat and Kleril both being Scum, and possible 'buddy-type' interations between them - a portion of my case that is valid only if they are both Scum - which Kleril was proven not to be - a great reason in Rolepgeek's mind to include that as a reason to vote, -and- to grin about, I presume).

However, Rolepgeek -does- make the claim that he is starting to think I have important things to say, thus he is not voting me.  However, he doesn't ask me anything - the rest of the post that includes what I quote talks about me and Deathsword, but asks nothing of me.  For the rest of that day he asks nothing of me, even with the extension that he belatedly asks for.

On D3, this is Rolepgeek's opening post:

Quote from: Rolepgeek on October 30, 2013, 09:19:55 pm

Sad that noone is active at all, at least not yet. I'll ask for an extend, as I need more time to think things through and get my bearings in general, though preliminarily, I think it's extremely suspicious that Imp is still alive. And that neither of the night-kills have been of people he was claiming were scum, for that matter. Seems like he didn't want to prove himself wrong, so he could try to mislynch us.

So Rolepgeek didn't vote for me D2 because he suddenly wanted to hear what I had to say - but he didn't ask me anything more D2 -  but he finds it extremely suspicious that I made it through N2.  He hypothesis a reason:  That I am Scum and that no night kill have been of people I say were Scum (so I don't prove myself wrong).  That's bunk as a possible reason - if I wanted to avoid being proved wrong I'd not have lead the lynch on anyone - let alone Kleril (that proved me wrong), and I wouldn't have wanted to reverse my stance on Cat for any reason (who I initially believed was also superScummy, then later reclassified as such a weak player he was unable to play better, but could not be Scum because he was so weak a player he wouldn't be able to hide it).  And I stated these things, each step of my reasoning.

No, I think Rolepgeek takes his own reason for not wanting me night killed, and twists it to apply to me.  Additionally, having me be alive on D3 gives him 'something to do' D3, a lynch to push that he's pushed all game, and one that he knows ends the game with a Scum win.

Quote from: Rolepgeek on October 31, 2013, 09:12:57 pm

Don't rage-quit, just see it through to the end, Imp.

Stupid for him to say, and again, taking his own motives and reaction patterns and applying them to me (inaccurately).  Who had tried to rage-quit this game?  Rolepgeek.  And where's the Scum hunting?  Where's any support for his claimed reason not to vote for me D2?  Absent.

So, I'm ready to move on.

I've sorted through what I could of Tiruin's posts.  I have a conclusion that is not certain.  That's not too surprising, except I really believed there was a real chance that I would be certain.  If it had just been this game, I might be, but I've learned a lot about Tiruin in other ongoing games recently too.  I can't -discuss- this, but I can sure use it myself as far as I know.  Tiruin -may- be Town.  The only Scum I'm sure of right now is Rolepgeek Pufferfish.  I'm perfectly willing to extend further.  My next post will address all the questions that I haven't answered yet.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 3 -
Post by: Tiruin on November 15, 2013, 04:28:57 pm

...Minutes away. Good morning Imp!

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 3 -
Post by: Tiruin on November 15, 2013, 04:31:37 pm

Reply #516
In which I press post instead of preview despite the post being a one-line sentence.

Quote from: Imp on November 15, 2013, 04:25:29 pm

I've sorted through what I could of Tiruin's posts.  I have a conclusion that is not certain.  That's not too surprising, except I really believed there was a real chance that I would be certain.  If it had just been this game, I might be, but I've learned a lot about Tiruin in other ongoing games recently too.  I can't -discuss- this, but I can sure use it myself as far as I know.  Tiruin -may- be Town.  The only Scum I'm sure of right now is Rolepgeek Pufferfish.  I'm perfectly willing to extend further.  My next post will address all the questions that I haven't answered yet.

I believe the bolded part equals you've some conclusion that leans one way or the other, yes? That's the whole case with null-people. They may be town or scum. Saying such, I was -scum- before to you, right?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 3 -
Post by: Imp on November 15, 2013, 04:41:10 pm

Quote from: Tiruin on November 15, 2013, 04:31:37 pm

Reply #516
In which I press post instead of preview despite the post being a one-line sentence.

Quote from: Imp on November 15, 2013, 04:25:29 pm

I've sorted through what I could of Tiruin's posts.  I have a conclusion that is not certain.  That's not too surprising, except I really believed there was a real chance that I would be certain.  If it had just been this game, I might be, but I've learned a lot about Tiruin in other ongoing games recently too.  I can't -discuss- this, but I can sure use it myself as far as I know.  Tiruin -may- be Town.  The only Scum I'm sure of right now is Rolepgeek Pufferfish.  I'm perfectly willing to extend further.  My next post will address all the questions that I haven't answered yet.

I believe the bolded part equals you've some conclusion that leans one way or the other, yes? That's the whole case with null-people. They may be town or scum. Saying such, I was -scum- before to you, right?

Wherein I answer your newest question in my next post, rather than my intended everyone's previous unanswered ones (because it's easiest and I am at work -but those answers and new questions are coming - my big big mental hump was 'what to think about Tiruin'):

Close.  You were 'almost certainly Scum' to me, because of your own actions this game without any consideration of Deathsword's.  You asked me a question earlier about why I was asking you what I was and such - I don't have time to search and find it - but when I get caught up on answers I'll be answering that one properly too -

I have not finished firming my current opinion of you, so I guess calling you a 'null' works for this moment - but my current at this second appraisal of you is on the Scum side of null - thus the 'may be Town' instead of 'may be Scum' or 'null tell'.  I don't know where it will be once I have time and ability to fully concentrate on this thread again (hopefully tonight!  Come on, Imp-mind, focus focus everywhere it needs too!  I know I can do it, it's just been 'hard to' recently)

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 3
Post by: zombie urist on November 15, 2013, 11:23:42 pm

Day extended to Tuesday November 19th 9 PM PST.

Imp - Pufferfish
squill -
bsnott -
Pufferfish - bsnott, Tiruin, Imp
Tiruin -

Not voting - squill

0 to extend, 2 needed
0 to shorten, 3 needed

Everyone should post more.  >:(

bsnott, Pufferfish, and squill have been prodded.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 3 -
Post by: Imp on November 16, 2013, 05:44:30 am

Tiruin:

Quote from: Tiruin on October 25, 2013, 09:26:00 pm

Quote from: Imp on October 25, 2013, 09:19:48 pm

Quote from: Tiruin on October 25, 2013, 09:05:15 pm

Well extending the game.. >_<

Quote from: Imp on October 25, 2013, 08:25:15 pm

Yet - you don't ask for extension.  Either.  No one is asking for an extension.  Sure, with no time left to answer my question - why not, Tiruin?

I..think I did.

My "Why not, Tiruin" was "Why not ask for an extension, Tiruin", reading your posting of not having enough time.  Are you saying that you think you did ask for an extension?

I don't see it.  Not a bolded request; not an unbolded request either.  None the less, I have offered to support an extension request.  If you meant to request one now but didn't; you're supported; good luck getting the third extend needed at this point.

Yeah. I di-
...Well, I did think of it, but then seeing that there was no extension at that time (which I missed now that I see it) I would extend.

...I had thought that nobody was into extending it -I looked at ZU's votecount at the time.

When you say

Quote from: Tiruin on October 25, 2013, 09:05:15 pm

I..think I did.

What were you saying that you thought you did?

Quote from: Tiruin on November 10, 2013, 09:54:00 pm

Imp:In that WoT (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4750626#msg4750626) of yours, I see a misplacement (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4748064#msg4748064) of one of my pertinent queries. What you thought of Darvi at the time. [Unless I'm visually impaired and missed it  :-[ ]

Nope.  I blatantly and flat out didn't answer it yet.  Your given answer failed to tell me -anything- I needed to hear, and told it to me in a way that failed to tell me if you were -choosing- to fail to answer me satisfactorily or -accidentally- failing to do so.  Far as I was concerned, you could wait for your answer(s) like I was asking everyone else to wait for their answers, and you could bloody well answer me first and meaningfully.

However, there was the chance you completely misunderstood my questions, especially given the life-stress you'd mentioned here and elsewhere.  So I did attempt to clarify my question, provide you with details you might genuinely need in order to decide how and if to answer me, and answer what appeared to be a stuck point for you that you had explained just barely enough about for me to understand your possibly real need for clarification.

We're past that point now.  Here's the answer.

Quote from: Tiruin on November 07, 2013, 03:47:10 pm

...Imp. I've to cut the spoilers short, but that is as far as I go until I see a flaw in your note here. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4740558#msg4740558) It appears to me that you discarded your own vote on Darvi when putting up those tables, and...somehow backed up the suspicion on me from that point. What (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4716603#msg4716603) did you see Darvi as, at that time?

Before that point, I saw Darvi as a null-tell who walked away from the game and only looked back once, then kept walking away.  Shame, shame shame, Mr IC.

I also saw him, before that point and given the lack of activity and the way the votes lay, as one of only two possible D2 lynches.  I explained already why I didn't vote for Cat and why I did vote for Darvi.

But you ask, 'What did you see Darvi as, at that time' and give a link.  That link's when I unvote from Darvi and freeze in horror at what your posts and your choices in play appear to mean.  What I saw Darvi as then was the lynch choice of a blatant Scum player, thus I saw Darvi as a certain Town player, and I didn't know what I could possibly do about it - given the inactivity level and inattentiveness of most of my fellow players.

I'm a bit more experienced now.  'Thanks' for that lesson.  What is your reaction to my answer?


This question is about something you said about Bsnott:

Quote from: Tiruin on November 10, 2013, 09:54:00 pm

He (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4734217#msg4734217) did extend, sure. But this could be in the analysis of motive. Such an act as that vote usually goes onto a 'cheap move'. You win via technical mechanics, if so, and if that is the case, he may have just extended to ensure a better chance of getting into the game
[/spoiler]

So, looking at Bsnott's subsequent behavior - which has been seriously sparse... I don't see an 'attempt to get into the game' or an attempt to learn how to play in what he's doing here.  Do you?  Does that change what you think of his motives/reasoning in placing that extend?

Quote from: Tiruin on November 10, 2013, 09:54:00 pm

I'm curious on why you regard him as town as so, with what seems to be vague and debatable evidence at best.

I'll discuss that a few posts from now.  I'd like a few more answers from some people first (including yourself).

Quote from: Tiruin on November 10, 2013, 09:54:00 pm

PFP. I'm a bad IC :/

Hell no you're not - and I'll go to my grave saying that.

Quote from: Tiruin on November 11, 2013, 05:32:32 am

Quote

I'm far from sure you're Scum but I'm far from sure you're Town either, so for the moment this works for me.

...But this is where I poke Imp. :I

Quote

As long as you're seeking replacement I'm not going to ask you anything.

While this borders on respect to the person, Imp, you should see that the query at hand would also in effect be applied to who his replacee would answer--you can't leave a dry lead, dry. While a person is under replacement, shoot all queries at him. The 'asking for replacement' generally means that he's wishing to be replaced BUT UNTIL THE MOD ANNOUNCES HIM BEING REPLACED (or the player replacing in), the asker is generally considered a player until then.

I've already discussed this on this D in answer to Rolepgeek, but I'll highlight it in answer to you, to remind you/invite you to explore further if you wanted to/want to now:

Rolepgeek had been answering questions for many, many, many previous days in an extremely unsatisfactory way.  From saying he actually couldn't answer, to saying he couldn't explain his previous answers, to giving answers which did not actually answer the question asked.  And he did this not once, but over and over and over again.  He gave reasons why - couldn't concentrate, realized he misunderstood, couldn't find anything to support his earlier statements, hadn't caught up on the thread, couldn't find his motivation - and then he also asks for an extension - because of these factors.

So to me, his 'replace me' = 'all the reasons he can't seem to answer questions'.  Fair enough.  Long as that's an issue for you, Rolepgeek, I won't 'ask'.  There's other ways to interact, and other ways to try and trigger motivated and meaningful attention and information exchange and I've got a handful of ways that I'll try first - lets see how that goes.

That was my intention in my interactions with him, and I invite you to reread my posts -both that one where I say "As long as you're seeking replacement I'm not going to ask you anything" - which IS ITSELF one of several lures attempting to trigger his interaction and two-way focused conversation with me, as well as the rest of my posts D2 interacting with him.

I strongly believe that you'll find the motivation I claim clearly showing in my posts and reactions to his reactions, because that is the motivation I had then and the reason I posted as I did to him, wording and content.  I continued to treat him as a player - and one I was very closely interacting with.  I agree with the meaning of your admonition, that I need to interact with him - but I think the focus on the exact words and methods I used to try and trigger his interaction (and failure to continue to consider my behavior towards him as he DOES react and I prolong and extend our interaction into the most information exchange I can see a way to) is very poorly focused and only considers 'formal questions', which is only one method of triggering response and information exchange.  I worked -very hard- to interact with Rolepgeek in a meaningful fashion despite his previous many failures to focus and adequately respond to myself and others, -and- I did this despite having found it very distasteful to do so, and having stated that I would prefer someone else to handle the scumhunting in regards to him.

So while I agree with your admonition - I return it with a flat stare.  Reread the interactions (especially the start of D2).  At -no- point do I stop interacting with Rolepgeek, and I offer him -many- tempting things to react to and care about.  And it is done on purpose.  That I -said- I was not going to ask him anything was itself an invitation, and specifically chosen as one of several shaped and chosen to 'effectively question him' - just without using questions.  And when it became clear that he was focused enough to actually meaningfully question - then I did start questioning him.

Sheesh.  "Now I know my A-B-C's" of interrogation/manipulation.

Quote from: Tiruin on November 11, 2013, 05:32:32 am

Imp, by far it seems you're giving me the benefit of the doubt--as in, how you regarded my one case back there [Near D2 end]. Am I right in presuming such? Why, either way?

If you want to consider 'giving you the benefit of the doubt' as 'maybe you're really not Scum like you clearly must be because of your blatant pro-Scum actions' - Barely, and it's because of Lylo.  If I'd been that sure of you before Lylo, no, maybe no benefit of the doubt.  At the time, I viewed what you did D2, as a whole, effectively as a Scum claim.  But Lylo's no place or time for misunderstandings.  I wanted to see your view, or what you claimed as your view, and I wanted to drink it deep and sense and feel and know it for it's truth as your view at that time.  It -could- be a misunderstanding, though given that you are not newb I didn't understand how it -could- be a misunderstanding, but again, Lylo.  -Lylo-.  Must attempt to collect more evidence - no no no no no room for error.  However, talk about feeling like a paranoid gun owner, staring at you over my sights, and feeling very sure I was looking at one of the criminals who I sought - one who didn't even care about being subtle in the commission of the crimes.

I read through as I picked out your questions to answer/stuff you'd said I wanted to respond to.  If I missed any questions, happy to have help seeing them.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 3 -
Post by: Imp on November 16, 2013, 08:11:02 am

Hey Squill!

You've certainly gotten the short end of my answers recently.  Sorry about that, and working on coming current now.

You also tend to pick and choose your way through my questions to you.  Here's a couple you've seemed to skip D3:

Quote from: Imp on November 01, 2013, 07:03:52 am

Quote from: Squill on November 01, 2013, 05:17:00 am

@Imp: I think it's possible that you are pretending to be upset to appeal to townies. After all, what better way to look like town than, when the game goes poorly, to be the loudest one decrying your fate?

Do you believe I'm trying to look Town by being the loudest one decrying my fate?

Quote from: Imp on November 03, 2013, 02:13:24 am

Squill, anything you want to talk about?

---

---

Here's your 'been waiting' answers:

Quote from: Squill on November 07, 2013, 09:27:57 pm

@Imp: I am not quite sure I follow. What was so imperative(heh) about this question/answer that you needed to put several other things on hold until Tiruin replied? It doesn't make a lot of sense to me, could you clarify?

Sorry to leave you confused for so long.  I saw what appeared to me to be multiple clear 'Scum slips' in Tiruin's behavior, and made at a time when it 'could be written off for various innocent reasons' and when 'it really mattered for scum, being immediately before Lylo when extremely few players were active, which increased the power and value to Scum of her actions'.  The value increases then because Scum ploys that fail hurt Scum, those that succeed help.  The end of a day when there is very low activity from most other players is a pretty darn safe time to take such actions.

I thought at the time that I had a real chance of being able to establish to myself with very strong certainty that Tiruin was Scum, because of these choices and difficulty she (I expected) would have in providing an acceptable explanation - one that provided genuine and consistent non-malevolent intentions that I could follow, understand, and view as likely genuine.

At that point I knew myself to be Town, considered bsnott confirmed Town, and knew there were only three unknowns, two of them Scum.  To be able to identify with great certainty even one of those Scum, huge.

If it were possible to verify Tirun's Scumminess, I wanted that done.  I could barely focus on anything else, so tightly did I 'sip the air' for words from her to taste to tell what feel she gave me.  I saw great strategic value in that determination.

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Quote from: Squill on November 12, 2013, 03:40:44 pm

@Imp: The only example that comes to mind is bsnott's recent situation. If he was scum, then he just threw away the game.
HOWEVER, something just occurred to me: bsnott can still be scum, but only if you are scum as well.

Quote from: Squill on November 12, 2013, 08:27:55 pm

If Imp is scum, then it is still entirely possible for bsnott to be scum, as that means that bsnott was not preventing scum victory, but assisting it.

Quote from: Squill on November 12, 2013, 08:52:32 pm

The problem comes in when you consider this: If both Imp and bsnott are scum, then this proof falls apart, and becomes a convenient way to declare one scum as town.
I'm really not sure how much clearer I can make this.

Quote from: Squill on November 13, 2013, 03:42:47 pm

This is getting a little bit frustrating. I am not saying that bsnott is definitely town, I'm saying that IN IMP'S SCENARIO SPECIFICALLY, the logic still does not work, UNLESS WE KNOW THAT IMP IS TOWN FOR SURE. We do not, therefore IMP'S CASE IS IN NO WAY THE FINAL WORD ON BSNOTT'S ROLE. I really hope that is clear enough, because I'm getting a little bit tired of this.

Actually, I already, and very specifically, addressed this.  I did so in this spoiler -

Quote from: Imp on November 02, 2013, 01:46:58 pm

Spoiler: proof bsnott and I cannot both be Scum, because if we were, Scum would have won last night (click to show/hide)

If he and I are both Scum, that's great motive for me to try and prove him Town - but a total waste of time if true.  This is how the game would have ended last night, if I and bsnott were both Scum - and it would have been a locked down win.

Shorten votes cancel out extend votes, 1 for 1 basis.

We had 90 minutes to end of game.  I remove my extend request (total now 1) - or even switch it to shorten (total now 0).  Completely preventing any chance for an extend.  bsnott and I both vote for any Town.  Squill logs in - the best he could do is say 'extend', but a shorten from either bsnott or myself cancels it.  Game ends without extend passing - with at best 2 scum votes on any 1 townie, and Squill adding his vote to rolepgeek's - a tie.  Scum victory.  If Squill didn't vote, mislynch and Scum victory.

This does not prove that I a not Scum - but it is proof that bsnott and I together cannot be Scum.

The reason why I made -that- post and addressed that concern, is that I realized that I was wrong when I told bsnott that the game had 90 minutes left - because I mistakenly believed we needed 3 extend votes.  I explain all that in the post that spoiler links from.

But I mean it - I don't currently agree with what Tiruin has talked about as 'generally frowned upon'.  I consider winning when you can win to be entirely appropriate - and drawing out the win when you could end it fast to be 'toying with others'.  I don't actually view this as a 'learning game', as in a 'fake game' or a 'kiddie game'.

I'm playing for keeps.  I won't break the rules - as I understand them.  I won't even bend them much (vague references to games currently in play, which I understand cannot be talked about outside their threads until they have ended... I'm making them.  I'm not -sure- its a rule - it's not written in any list of rules I can find - and I have -no- Mafia experience outside of games not yet ended - but I'm currently in 3 games at once, so I -do- have some [and growing!] Mafia experience.  Crazy hard not to discuss when seems appropriate or useful in another game!).

But I am playing to win.  Not to win a specific way, not to win with beauty or speed (I wanted that, stupid me D1) though I wouldn't refuse such a win.  But I am playing -crazy hard- to win.  And I have been all game, though there's been several hours when the game has appeared impossible not to lose.

If I and either Squill or bsnott were the Scum team - this game would be over with a Scum win and the only possible preventative would have been Tiruin logging in on time when D3 was supposed to end that first time.  If newbie bsnott hadn't found Scum chat yet, I'd have been willing to coach him on what we needed to do to win right there openly in the thread in the final moments of the day if we had to.

Sadly, this cannot be used to 'prove' that I am not Scum, because I have never been given a chance this game to have a clear 'if you are Scum, do this and win' moment by myself - the only player who I believe has is bsnott.  Tiruin's test was not that definitive either, as she could not have created a Scum win with a single quick 'correct' action.  She also claims she wouldn't do this.  Alright.... but I claim I -would-.  And I consider it the polite and reasonable thing to do - manuver until you can end the game with your win - then end it cleanly when you can.  I expect and appreciate this behavior from my opponents as well.

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Quote from: Squill on November 12, 2013, 03:40:44 pm

As for a target too high to hit, I mean you are aggressive and thorough in basically every post you make; people do not want to accuse you, because nobody wants to deal with the ensuing scrutiny. As probably the most frequent poster, with the longest posts, nobody wants to spend their time in the game embroiled in conflict with you. Which, if you're a scum, is a very good thing. Do you understand what I am saying?

I do understand you, but I believe you are wrong.  I take a similar stance towards Rolepgeek -  he was so unpleasant that no one wanted to interact with him.

However, many players -do- interact with me.  I've been asked 'I don't want to take the time to count how many' questions this game, and you are one of the very few players this game who has asked me almost none (prior to D3).  Then again, you ask extremely few questions of anyone.  I've gotten hostile interactions, curious interactions, friendly interactions, more-or-less pure Scumhunting interactions - some I instigated, and others started by others.

If you are saying 'Imp you may be acting the way you act because it's a great cover for a Scum (which you are) because no one wants to interact with you because of it' - you are basing your question on what I see to be a great fallacy - that no one wants to interact with me - which hasn't been said by anyone all game and which has happened, both with my starting it and others starting it, this entire game.  We are.... playing Mafia.... which is a game based in part.... on conflict and suspicion.  *blinks*.  Most players are likely playing this game with something close to that understanding, at least that's my understanding.

Does this make sense?

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And here's a few other questions I have for you:

Quote from: Squill on November 05, 2013, 11:16:47 am

I think veiled threats might have been a poor choice of words, but I think you get what I mean. I think that you're the most aggressive player in the game, which is both good and bad. Good because it probably puts pressure on scum, but bad because it intimidates people from voting on you, out of fear that you, as an aggressive player, will turn on them. This is not to say that you are definitely or even probably scum, it's just to say that no one has seriously scumhunted against you yet. So I want to ask you: Do you think that there can be a thing as too aggressive in this game? Do you think that it is possible that, by being very aggressive, to deflect scrutiny by means of intimidation?

Puff has restated Deathsword's case that I am Scum and strongly supports it.  Puff has reviewed what he calls Deathsword's scumhunting of me, and he also has reclassified at least some of what Rolepgeek has said, which he originally called a two-way flame war, as "RPG does put up good points", at least in terms of my D2 vote on him.

What is your interpretation, considering your statement that "no one has seriously scumhunted against you yet"?  Do you consider that serious Scumhunting, or do you consider what Puff has done in presenting his case against me this day to be serious Scumhunting?

How do you define serious Scumhunting, what do you recognize as serious Scumhunting?

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When you say:

Quote from: Squill on November 05, 2013, 11:16:47 am

bad because it intimidates people from voting on you, out of fear that you, as an aggressive player, will turn on them.

Are you considering at all that one vote is almost -never- enough to lynch anyone, especially if players are following the thread?

If I 'turn on someone' - all I can do is type words and place 1 vote.  I can try to be convincing,  I can try anything I please - but if I act wrongly, if I behave counter to reasonable behavior - that is scummy, yes?  There are other players in the game, and each of them has a vote.  If I 'turn on someone' in a way that anyone feels as inappropriate, there are many solutions.  Some involve words, some involve votes.  One person cannot usually lynch anyone, but one person can sure get lynched by behaving wrongly.  It's not possible to turn on 'everyone', is it?  And if that was done, would that not hasten the lynch of that offending and offensive player (well, maybe not in lylo, but certainly before then?)

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Day 2 - you initally vote for Darvi, FoS Deathsword, then unvote, stating

Quote from: Squill on October 24, 2013, 03:47:10 pm

Quote from: Imp on October 24, 2013, 04:54:44 am

Quote from: Squill on October 23, 2013, 08:17:38 pm

But right now, I think I will unvote. With three, potentially four people inactive, I just can't feel comfortable in voting, as I know that I don't have the whole picture, or nearly as much as I should have.

What do you envision or imagine happening, if this game continues to progress as it has been?  Assuming each player's play stays similar to how it's been, the requested replaces just don't appear as the days keep passing, and zombie urist doesn't step in to say 'enough, we are paused' or 'enough, game called on account of rain' - if we're left to muddle around in our own devices and all of us (except maybe you) play as we have been so far - what sorts of choices do you see yourself making?  I'd call your current strategy 'try to wait it out, can't get anything done as is'; is that an accurate assessment, and do you think you'd keep using this strategy as time passes without change?

I was thinking that if nobody is replaced when this extension ends, we should stop delaying and play the damn game.

You also say this about extensions:

Quote from: Squill on October 25, 2013, 04:31:34 pm

I am not extending because RPG, for example, has been requesting replacement for probably over a week and no one has stepped in. Now we need three or four replacements, with no sign of ending. Right now, I'm just voting on my "most likely Scum" pick. This game isn't going anywhere unless there's some really sudden replacements, so I just want to push for the end.

You weren't actually voting then, you didn't vote again the rest of that day.

Why did you decide that 'pushing for the end' was the answer you supported the most?  Were you giving up on your Wincon, at least for the time, were you 'sort of' boycotting the game, or what?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 3 -
Post by: Imp on November 16, 2013, 08:44:25 am

Puff:

Quote from: Pufferfish on November 13, 2013, 01:17:26 am

To answer:

Quote

why you choose to disregard any other information that may support or disprove any part or even the entirety of 'your' case?  Considering that a mistake made in lynching now will end the game with a Scum win, what justification do you see for failing to consider your assumptions and beliefs?

Consider it me trying to get a better read on you.

What a miserable answer, if I understand you correctly.  You are actually saying that you are disregarding my answers and the new information I provide in them -because- you -want me to- -consider it you trying to get a better read on me-?

This is because for you evidence of my Scumminess or Towniness comes from -where- exactly?  The depths of your imagination, and any words I actually say in response to your statements or questions serve only to interfere with the august clarity of your unsullied thoughts?

Balderdash.

Makes me want to ignore what you say.  None the less, I'll address a few choice things.

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Quote from: Pufferfish on November 13, 2013, 01:17:26 am

That theme I'm mentioning? You refer to yourself a lot. I can come up with at least five instances where you infer you are town. At least. And it's happened more and more recently, especially with and around BSnott.

And this is a Scum tell how?

You can find in the thread where I challenge Persus13, end of D1, for having made two statements, one where he said he 'knew before he got his role PM' that the person he replaced was Town, and a -second- and to me vastly more grevious 'misrepresentation' - that -my words- (which emphasized that the newbie lurker was SO newbie and SO lurker that he couldn't be read at all as Scum or Town) had helped convince him that the person he replaced was Town.

I took great offense to that, and I saw that as seriously Scummy.

But refering to yourself as Town?  Depending on circumstances, that's usually reasonable behavior for both Scum and Town - granted Scum are lying.  That's called a Null tell, because you can't tell if it means Scum or Town because of it.

Like asking 'Is the newborn a boy or a girl?' and being answered 'The child was born at six AM.'  Null tells can even have information - but not information that answers 'the' question - alignment.

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Quote from: Pufferfish on November 13, 2013, 01:17:26 am

And when it comes to total volume of words. Imp. Honestly.

How much of this (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4642894#msg4642894) post was really necessary? Or this (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4659525#msg4659525) one? And this (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4669460#msg4669460) one which was complained about?

The first was called the behemoth for good reason, and the second one even had just a single sentence quoted!

Not Scum tells.  And you ask -me- if every word I took the time to write was necessary?  Yes.  Idiot question - maybe you can see this when I ask it back to you  - How much of any of the posts you have written this game 'necessary'?

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Quote from: Pufferfish on November 13, 2013, 01:17:26 am

Also, I must say, calling "holding unreasonable opinions that they refuse to reexamine" lying is quite silly. Because it's not. It's holding an unreasonable opinions that one refuses to reexamine. Which isn't lying. It's holding an opinion that may or may not be wrong.

Hrm.  There are countries in Africa where it is taught that HIV doesn't cause AIDS (nor is it a disease transmitted through body fluids) - they teach that the drugs given to people who have HIV cause AIDS.

On the AIDS theme still - there are places in the world where it is believed that intercourse with a virgin will cure it.

There's people who believe that -they- are allowed to drink and drive - some keep believing it even after their drunk driving causes accidents that kill others.

People who believe -they- are allowed to dump toxic waste whereever they see fit.

That -they- are allowed to speed, because they choose.  -They- are allowed to steal, rape, embezzle, bully - that rules and reality apply to everyone but themselves.

It -is- possible to honestly hold opinions, and to honestly reconsider them or not.  But 'unreasonable opinions' are 'unreasonable' because there is possibly contradictory evidence clearly exposed for consideration.  To refuse to consider this evidence, to refuse to consider the veracity of opinion, thought, belief - to refuse to attempt to verify or disprove - yes that can cross the border between truth and lie.

And what you are doing here appears to have.

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Quote from: Pufferfish on November 13, 2013, 01:17:26 am

And, looking back, you were the main reason Kleril, a vanilla town, was lynched. After he unvoted you. Why did you change your mind about him after he unvoted you?

Because his posts before, after, -and- during contained extreme Scumminess.  Which I explained at the time.

What, do you claim to believe that Scum don't unvote, or are you claiming to believe that if someone unvotes you, you should -not- vote them, regardless of reason?

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bsnott:

Play.  Your lurkiness has passed intolerable way back.  You've failed to answer questions from all of us, for all that you've answered a few and not been completely absent.  We need you.  Don't fail us - and if you MUST, ask for a replacement.  But even if you do - play until you are replaced.

You asked to be here.  We need you, no matter what your role is.  To play is to be active and involved.  Play.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 3 -
Post by: Imp on November 16, 2013, 08:48:16 am

Doh.  Meant to include this in above post to Tiruin:

Quote from: Tiruin on November 03, 2013, 09:38:23 pm

If I were to predict scum movement, I'd say they're taking it easy. Town (and I) are busied by RL and/or, inactivity. Inactivity is a scumplot. When I say that, I mean that they can easily win given:
a. A NK (the factional NightKill)
b. Vote manipulation (manual red-voting at the last second [yea, this is...frowned upon by general honor]) or..abilities--not in a BM.

Tiruin, please discuss 'vote manipulation', preferably as an IC?

Some of the things I am wondering - how widely frowned upon is it on the B12 boards?

One thing that -could- happen even in this BM is that one player could 'disappear' for a time - lets say it's a Town player.  As the clock runs down, lets say the two Scum vote for any one Town, and the two Town vote for someone - doesn't matter if it's a Scum or Town player because that's a tie vote.

The two Town can vote extend - but the two Scum can vote shorten (or even just one of them - as long as there's not two extend votes more than the shorten votes, extend cannot happen).  The two Scum together can 'force' the day to end as scheduled, but of course all -three- Town can force that day to end with the lynch of one of the players forcing the extension to fail - great way to nab Scum... but only if all three players were active.

Maybe my ethics are lacking - but I don't see that as 'bad' or 'wrong' play - I see that as quite legitimate, if risky.  The balance is that all it takes is the slightest bit of attention from the 'missing Townie' and the Scum have sunk themselves - so such things are 'safer' as the day draws closer to its end.

Thoughts such as this were one of the reasons I greatly wanted the day extended out so very, very long ahead of time.  That and going to 90 minutes to the end of day (believing I did at least - I thought we needed 3 extend votes at the time), with the choice of being the lynch with one vote on me, or creating a tie by voting at all.  And why I said that anyone using shorten, without the consensus of at least 3 players (and one of them better be me!) I'd take as a sure Scum tell.

See, I don't see anything more or less 'wrong' about controlling the game through votes and extend/shortens, for Town or Scum, than I do about role claiming (for Town or Scum - Scum clearly have much freedom to roleclaim falsely, and possibly some knowledge to back that lie up).  So why is 'vote manipulation' widely frowned upon, and is it really widely frowned upon, or something that you personally find abhorrent?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 3 -
Post by: Tiruin on November 17, 2013, 04:13:47 pm

PFP - Internet dissonance.
Believe it or not (believe it please :/) I'm having a really messy time with the internet here. I can't post WoTs because...it loads forever. Even loading the page here equals generally a few minutes, and even then it only loads...partially. Sans the long time loading a working reply box, I've to address in brevity to..hopefully see this message go through.

Imp

Quote

Tiruin, please discuss 'vote manipulation', preferably as an IC?

Err, I've to poke at real experience. Check past BMs..it's when AT THE LAST MOMENT, scum shift their vote onto the target, at LYLO, to get the kill :X

Tbh, I didn't like it. This game ish for learning. That thing just hits wincon, but learns...only dirty tricks. It's frowned on by me, for sure, and I'm unsure on how much me = % of people who doesn't like that kinda tactic, but in a regular game its a SURE 'I'M SCUM AND AHAHAHA TOWN DIE' move and... That doesn't stop anyone from doing it (yeah...) but..ugh. You get it.

Ethics aside, its a technicality that's been.. looked down upon by quite a few people of mention.

@other post before the recent post above this (can you believe I can't quote people? :D Because I CAN'T DX I don't know why the 'insert quote' link doesn't even load but its..somewhat delayed like loading pages. All tabs wherein I can reply to are the ones I keep saved from yester-yesterday...bluh).

Quote

What were you saying that you thought you did?

That I thought I had placed down an extension. Yeah, jumbled thoughts on the matter given how I remember one thing and then say the other but then I really remembered that one thing and..ugh. Bad time for that side of me to show, huh.
..So yeah, I thought I bolded an extend. Then on the similar hand, I also thought that nobody else wanted an extend as nothing else was bolded despite people saying they were inclined towards an extend, which is my fault for not actually doing it in the first place to see if that was a true thing or not..so what I'm saying is that I did want it extended, but then didn't actually extend until someone else did, and focused on ending the day. Scum motive? Sure, yeah. Did I have an intention of making it look like so? No. Player mistake is the best I'd say what I did. And while I'd play it off as irrelevant to the situation now (who is scum >.>), and see that you may see it as a tell, I'd..erh, just say what it is anyways, for posterity.

Quote

But you ask, 'What did you see Darvi as, at that time' and give a link.  That link's when I unvote from Darvi and freeze in horror at what your posts and your choices in play appear to mean.  What I saw Darvi as then was the lynch choice of a blatant Scum player, thus I saw Darvi as a certain Town player, and I didn't know what I could possibly do about it - given the inactivity level and inattentiveness of most of my fellow players.

I'm a bit more experienced now.  'Thanks' for that lesson.  What is your reaction to my answer?

In which I fail to append the 'don't answer this because I found why or what you saw Darvi as in the spoiler(?) in my post. It's in where I rationalize you anyways..can't view it on the reply page--it's before the statement to Puff on the locked game and all

Quote

« on: November 13, 2013, 02:27:50 pm »

My post before this time of his post.

Point in case, attack the player (is one other option). Diplomacy or not, you've a sure scummy lead no matter how you see it and any reaction would be fine on my point. I..guess its just that I've been too used to aggression that you doing a diplomatic action is a town-tell to me, but I guess its in how you say it rather than the intent here.

Paraphrased from memory on how you see Darvi:
> You see him as a null-town tell, that he's too far from scum, but assuredly 'not' town in the public eye that you used him as..well, 'bait', technically over the luckycat. How I saw it at the time (because the shift from Rolepgeek wasn't considered) was that you..voted Darvi as a last resort-there-must-be-a-lynch today maneuver and was curious on why you unvoted. I rationalized that it was perhaps because of my lack of reasons on the post when I did it.

Spoiler: IC note (click to show/hide)

{And this is why you should give reasons on things like that! I'm playing an unintentional example! Ignore the statement in curved brackets as this is spoilered for a reason}

So I put up the reason on the post before day end.

504504504..sure ISP. Go tell me that when I can renavigate back to the BM correctly yet post thing a couple of times wasting me a fewminutes in order to do that.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 3 -
Post by: Tiruin on November 17, 2013, 04:31:02 pm

Addendum: ...Or maybe I may just be putting the time of posting and whatnot at extremes. It does take minutes but is a bit on-and-off at times.

Anyway.

Quote

So, looking at Bsnott's subsequent behavior - which has been seriously sparse... I don't see an 'attempt to get into the game' or an attempt to learn how to play in what he's doing here.  Do you?  Does that change what you think of his motives/reasoning in placing that extend?

...Nice going Bsnott :I
Yeah. I don't. However I still stand by my principle that what he did then, is a null tell. I can't in clear mind discard him as town given only that. Sure, you may have another thought there given his....actions now, but then..back then I still see what I do for him now.

Null, and lacking in posts! The redeeming moment for him is..'he extended when the day should've ended in a..lynch', From memory, I remember the votes landing on Imp, right? Yeah, it jives with my town read and I would agree that it'd lead

Spoiler: IC note (click to show/hide)

{I mean, really. Two votes on 'RANT-POST' or severe..unjust technicalities. Squill, Rolepgeek, if you guys aren't scum [on the reason of your paltry votes earlier today], then I hope you learn not to do stupid things like that.

And yes its stupid. Because that's just mean, hitting another player on grounds of such emotional appeal such as that. With the activity of the time-and yeah I agree that my time has been spent rather..askew without factoring personal dishonor here, one has a right to rant about such given the context of THIS WHOLE GAME.}

to such thoughts.

I'm discarding this train of thought as I see it leading to triviality. Bsnott: Post. And state your reason why you're unable to post.

Quote

At -no- point do I stop interacting with Rolepgeek, and I offer him -many- tempting things to react to and care about.  And it is done on purpose.

..Yeah, I do get your response, and in no way was my intent structured to poke you against what is tangible here (I did note that you were communicating with him). I was..well, the significant of that paragraph I did was perfectly and only for that quoted statement I quoted.

Did I miss anything towards me?

~~~
~~~
~~~

On the RL references..that's a real nice way you're presenting it. Just chipping in, as what you say is true and that's a nice way of referencing. (I mean yeah, I'd love to argue alongside you there because of personal interests but that's for other times.)
>.>
<.<
Just saying that I like how you do that thing. Then summarize it with a closing line of explanation at the end.

~~~

Oh, and when I said vote manipulation--to expound, I'm tlaking about the phrase we're all told when playing as newbies, 'play to win', meaning achieve your wincondition.
For scum it generally means KILL ALL EVERYONE ELSE//TOWNIES
For town it generally means KILL ALL THOSE WHO OPPOSE PEACE//SCUM//THE TOWN FACTION!
...And what I say as vote manipulation in that quote stands. While it'll disgust me to see people vote switching at the last moments of the day (shall I say that I take it on myself to wake up at irregularly awkward times in the night to ENSURE that? :3 Yeah, you know my secret now.), it is doable. Just saying that I don't like it. For reasons that if such and such happens--and in REGULAR GAMES wherein you [general] (as scum who would plan to do it) have no IDEA what the other people as roles can do, unless a massclaim happened and stuff, you're playing risks.

And even then..ehh, it's a dirty move. Just like playing to technicalities. You'd 'win', yeah, but most wins on forum mafia are along the philosophical win. Everyone's buddy-friends with everyone else outside game, to quote Toaster, but in-game we're like sneakthieves at each other's throats. It's like philosophical debates.
...Then there's below the belt moves..erm, I hope you get my point. It's..like, giving a gist of who you are (despite all of us knowing that whoever does such is an OK person), it's..yeah! That.
^{Cursed lack of terminology describing my words!}

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 3 -
Post by: Squill on November 18, 2013, 06:17:23 pm

I'm sorry, but I've lost interest in this game. I just can't get myself to play. Replacement.
I really don't want to quit on all of you, but I suppose that finding a replacement is an improvement to me posting as little as I can.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 3 -
Post by: Tiruin on November 18, 2013, 06:17:54 pm

Quote from: Squill on November 18, 2013, 06:17:23 pm

I'm sorry, but I've lost interest in this game. I just can't get myself to play. Replacement.
I really don't want to quit on all of you, but I suppose that finding a replacement is an improvement to me posting as little as I can.

NOT. NOW. :I

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 3 -
Post by: Tiruin on November 18, 2013, 06:18:36 pm

And by that I mean post as much as you can DESPITE the replacement label being appended to your face, please! D:

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 3 -
Post by: Imp on November 18, 2013, 07:38:51 pm

As the only original player of this game still alive in play who has not asked (and will not ask) for a replacement - I just want to say I've also not retracted my "just cancel the game, do role flips, open the chats" request.  No winners, no losers - no more secrets or tricks or misunderstandings.  Everyone who learned anything about playing still knows what they learned, no one's at fault.

I -do- love Mafia though.  I'm not a player going 'you've lost me'.  It's just -this game- and various things that have happened.  I'm not as upset as I was, but if I could vote 'game over, no winners, repeat this BM when there are enough signed up players' - that's what I would vote.

Answer's still no, right?  Drat.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 3 -
Post by: zombie urist on November 18, 2013, 08:37:53 pm

If both Pufferfish and bsnott don't respond by tomorrow I'll just end the game.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 3 -
Post by: kleril on November 18, 2013, 08:44:14 pm

BAH.

Not because of my death (which was still silly, you goofs), but because the game is coming to a close like this. It's the home stretch. Stick it out, Squill. I'm as curious as can be about who's who, but I don't want to have the game get dropped. It feels like cheating.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 3 -
Post by: Imp on November 18, 2013, 08:59:28 pm

Quote from: kleril on November 18, 2013, 08:44:14 pm

BAH.

Not because of my death (which was still silly, you goofs), but because the game is coming to a close like this. It's the home stretch. Stick it out, Squill. I'm as curious as can be about who's who, but I don't want to have the game get dropped. It feels like cheating.

Wow.  I believe I'm not supposed to talk to you, but wow.  I am -so- glad to know you're still around, Kleril.  You're the dead guy I really want to talk to.  Thanks for letting us know you're still around.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 3 -
Post by: Gentlefish on November 18, 2013, 09:02:07 pm

It's not that I don't want to finish this game it's just. It's been more of a hassle than a game really. I'm sure I would have loved it a lot more if I came into it from the start. I can try to keep playing if you want but this game takes a lot more out of me than I feel a game should.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 3 -
Post by: bsnott on November 18, 2013, 09:15:05 pm

I'd thought we were finished by now. Looks like the extends have continued. Well, Imp, I'm back and playing. Like I stated previously, my main reason for voting Pufferfish was because he was on the top of the list for scum-hunting.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 3 - ONE REPLACEMENT NEEDED
Post by: Imp on November 18, 2013, 09:20:41 pm

bsnott!

You've been ignoring/not answering a good many questions from a good many people and I'm only one of those.  My main questions to you, -repeated questions- have been how far your readthrough of the game has gotten and how deeply you feel you understand what you have read.


Arglebargle*quash*frustration Why do usually not answer questions?

Go through the thread since you joined and count all the questions you haven't answered!  Do better than count them - Answer them too!

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 3 - ONE REPLACEMENT NEEDED
Post by: Squill on November 18, 2013, 09:40:30 pm

Okay then, you win. Am I allowed to retract replacement request?
If so, then tomorrow I will catch up with that last page that I haven't really looked at, and hopefully start to post regularly again.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 3 - ONE REPLACEMENT NEEDED
Post by: Tiruin on November 18, 2013, 09:58:19 pm

Y'know, the best example in reality of 'MAKE SURE YOU CAN HANDLE {X}' is the BM. People vanish. People disappear. If I'm running the next thing, I'll just make the mafia into some kind of evil-evil abduction ring.

Quote from: Imp on November 18, 2013, 08:59:28 pm

Quote from: kleril on November 18, 2013, 08:44:14 pm

BAH.

Not because of my death (which was still silly, you goofs), but because the game is coming to a close like this. It's the home stretch. Stick it out, Squill. I'm as curious as can be about who's who, but I don't want to have the game get dropped. It feels like cheating.

Wow.  I believe I'm not supposed to talk to you, but wow.  I am -so- glad to know you're still around, Kleril.  You're the dead guy I really want to talk to.  Thanks for letting us know you're still around.

>_>
<_<
Same.
*high-fives.

---

---

Quote from: zombie urist on November 18, 2013, 08:37:53 pm

If both Pufferfish and bsnott don't respond by tomorrow I'll just end the game.

Bloody hell that.

Shorten. I am NOT seeing this thing crash and burn because of one (puff seems busy and/or active lurking and I'm blatantly accusing him here.) player who just replaced in with..well. That.

Re-read-edit:

Quote from: bsnott on November 18, 2013, 09:15:05 pm

I'd thought we were finished by now. Looks like the extends have continued. Well, Imp, I'm back and playing. Like I stated previously, my main reason for voting Pufferfish was because he was on the top of the list for scum-hunting.

WHAT
WHAT D:<
^{Is it that I fail as an IC SO hard that...nothing else matters?}
And what does that equal? That's just you saying 'He's my top suspect', paraphrased as your reason. What is the context or reason BEHIND that "reason".

Cause all that exists is a bus-situation as far as I see.

ALSO, you've a LOT to read. You just gave this up?

Bsnott for secondary scumpick.[/brevity] How do you rationalize my statements here, Bsnott?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 3
Post by: zombie urist on November 18, 2013, 10:06:53 pm

Day ends to Tuesday November 19th 9 PM PST. ~26 hours from this post

Imp - Pufferfish
squill -
bsnott -
Pufferfish - bsnott, Tiruin, Imp
Tiruin -

Not voting - squill

0 to extend, 2 needed
1 to shorten, 3 needed

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 3
Post by: Tiruin on November 18, 2013, 10:08:58 pm

Oh, also if Puff ends up scum, then by relation my theory on Imp being town is true given the state of votes right now at this crucial moment.

...

Is there anything I'm lacking to address here?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 3
Post by: Imp on November 18, 2013, 10:49:12 pm

Ehh, there's a few things I'd like to cover but without interactive involvement from Squill and bsnott I'm shooting in the dark.

Tiruin, hope you know that on my list of grievances this game, 'How Tiruin acted as an IC (or as a player)' doesn't number among them.  My plaint's about the need for consistent rules enforcement, primarily.

However, since my second 'explosion' about it, the rules and the 'standards' of the game -have- been very consistently and fairly enforced.  *deep nod to zombie urist*  Thank you.

I -had- said that I'd take any unagreed upon shortens as a sure sign of scummitude, but I'm going to excuse Tiruin's from that assumption.

I am not joining her in voting shorten.  I might not be able to get any deeper feel of any players than what I have right now, but we have Squill at least currently saying 'tomorrow I read and post'.

If I'm to keep playing to my wincon, I need to try to figure out who I do and don't think is Scum.  Playing to my wincon is BIG to me.  Ahem, -I- am not in this BM to learn.  Learning is a given, I'd learn no matter what Mafia game I joined.  I am here to win and I was here to win the moment I inned.

If I'm to get out of this game, because the game is canceled - my wincon's not violated, it's obliterated.  It's gone, I'm free, no fault or blame.  Game 'went bad', I have 'permission' to stop playing.

If I'm to get out of this game, because it is pushed to an end, any end - my wincon's probably getting not going to happen -and if pushing to a fast end is my focus then I'm not playing to my wincon.  I can't do that.  I can look there, then I have to close that door.  I -can't- do that.  In a sense games are sacred to me.  I can change how I play, especially for the better - but I don't break the game's core precepts unless I've realized that there's an entire new way to play that doesn't 'break the game' even if it looks terribly wrong to others.  That doesn't apply here either.

I can also walk away from games I'm done with, 'wincon' be darned, I have stopped caring - game ended for me already, no matter how unfinished it seems to anyone else.  But I am definitely not done with Mafia, and that's not happening here.

So I -can't- support a shorten.  Shortens -hurt my wincon-.  I don't believe Town loses this N (but if it does - that's actually an acceptable loss to me.  If Rolepgeek isn't actually Scum - I'm ready to accept losing) but I know we need to lynch Scum tomorrow too.

And yeah, I would see the game stopped before I'd step down and say, "Alright, I guess I give up, alright, defeat me cause I accept that I lose.'  It's one thing for my best possible play to lose.  It's another for everyone to rush to an end that would probably cause a loss.

Grrrrrr.  Alright, I'm done venting.  But I have nothing more to say until I have answers from Squill/bsnott.

If they have no answers I guess I've done my best already, and I'm ready to move to the next Night.  But it's not for -me- to say they've no further answers to give.  And Squill at least has said he was going to post.  I wonder if that post will contain answers or dodges.  And if dodges are the answers.  But really.  Grrrrrr.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 3
Post by: Tiruin on November 18, 2013, 11:19:35 pm

While I'd love to say that my previous actions here have been in the spirit of teaching, the intent was wholly behind the spur of the moment. Yea, this game is for learning-and Imp places the idea perfectly in her eloquence. I have shortened out of impulse--better to see the day ended rather than cancelled--without taking in the factors and viewpoints of everyone else.

...Checking back, I come off as arrogant, at worst. At best..then lightheaded in thought. There is none I can say to defuse or oppose anything stated in that rant, Imp, as it all falls true to me. (But I have to point out, when things are labeled LYLO - it is the general belief that {in the absence of alignment shifters and all other roles affecting the lynch or life//death of a player} the day MUST end in a scum lynch. No less, or it is game over and the collective {town} enemy, wins. This response directed to the parenthesis..judging by the idea that we /are/ five people with two of whom being scum).

The values and..virtues given, I-...would love to discuss it when the game has ended. T'would look like a good future Imp.
~~~
DETACHING:
However I must agree. With the absence of words from the other players, whether or not the lynched person is scum--the lack of anything just kills the wait off, giving the impression of apathy (active lurking -is- a valid tactic..though I'm glad nobody ever puts the reason to RL stuff and must be proved via the hard route of checking in).

..Anyway, that's all this one has to say for now.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 3 -
Post by: Squill on November 19, 2013, 03:37:13 pm

@Imp:

Quote from: Imp on November 16, 2013, 08:11:02 am

Do you believe I'm trying to look Town by being the loudest one decrying my fate?

I feel like I already answered this one somewhere, but whatever.
I was saying that it was a possibility, but I was not sure that it was true, and I couldn't decide how likely it was. However, I believe that in the spirit of the game, if something can be pointed out as scummy behavior, that, unless it's either very obvious or already mentioned, it should be pointed out. So, I thought that "If Imp were scum, WHY would she be doing this?" I believed that this was the most likely reason. So I pointed it out.

Quote from: Imp on November 16, 2013, 08:11:02 am

Squill, anything you want to talk about?

Sorry for not answering this one, I was thinking that if the answer was no, then I shouldn't stress it too much.
However, there is now something I want to say: At least once, but if I remember correctly than a few times, you have said now that I am wrong about you not being questioned much. Looking back, maybe that was a bit of exaggeration. But I will maintain that at least relative to just about everyone but post-Deathsword Tiruin, you haven't been scumhunted against too much.

Quote from: Imp on November 16, 2013, 08:11:02 am

Does this make sense?

I suppose it does, but see above question for more details. I typed that before this one and this is how it turned out.

Quote from: Imp on November 16, 2013, 08:11:02 am

What is your interpretation, considering your statement that "no one has seriously scumhunted against you yet"?  Do you consider that serious Scumhunting, or do you consider what Puff has done in presenting his case against me this day to be serious Scumhunting?

Another question that can be answered by above responses.

Quote from: Imp on November 16, 2013, 08:11:02 am

How do you define serious Scumhunting, what do you recognize as serious Scumhunting?

As serious scumhunting, I refer to drawn out conversations with questions and answers coming from both parties, much like this current conversation with you.

Quote from: Imp on November 16, 2013, 08:11:02 am

Are you considering at all that one vote is almost -never- enough to lynch anyone, especially if players are following the thread?

If I 'turn on someone' - all I can do is type words and place 1 vote.  I can try to be convincing,  I can try anything I please - but if I act wrongly, if I behave counter to reasonable behavior - that is scummy, yes?  There are other players in the game, and each of them has a vote.  If I 'turn on someone' in a way that anyone feels as inappropriate, there are many solutions.  Some involve words, some involve votes.  One person cannot usually lynch anyone, but one person can sure get lynched by behaving wrongly.  It's not possible to turn on 'everyone', is it?  And if that was done, would that not hasten the lynch of that offending and offensive player (well, maybe not in lylo, but certainly before then?)

Not quite sure how to respond to this, do you want answers to each individual question?
For now, here's a blanket answer: One player can make a lynch, because one player, especially one as active as you, has some capability to convince others. That is, after all, one of the main points of playing the game.

Quote from: Imp on November 16, 2013, 08:11:02 am

Why did you decide that 'pushing for the end' was the answer you supported the most?  Were you giving up on your Wincon, at least for the time, were you 'sort of' boycotting the game, or what?

I think I still am pushing for the end a bit. I decided that taking a tie was preferable to playing past the point where the game could be played as intended at an almost guranteed loss. It was at the point where the game was meant to be played with x amount of people, but we had several less than that.
I think I had more to say on something, but I was interrupted in the middle of typing this and lost my train of thought. I'll post again if I remember.





 

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 3 -
Post by: Imp on November 19, 2013, 05:29:45 pm

Squill:

Quote from: Squill on November 19, 2013, 03:37:13 pm

@Imp:

Quote from: Imp on November 16, 2013, 08:11:02 am

Do you believe I'm trying to look Town by being the loudest one decrying my fate?

I feel like I already answered this one somewhere, but whatever.

Here's what you answered:

Quote from: Squill on November 01, 2013, 09:44:46 pm

Quote from: Imp on November 01, 2013, 07:03:52 am

Quote from: Squill on November 01, 2013, 05:17:00 am

Motherfuck. Forgot about the whole "Halloween" thing being yesterday when I posted.

@Imp: I think it's possible that you are pretending to be upset to appeal to townies. After all, what better way to look like town than, when the game goes poorly, to be the loudest one decrying your fate?

Squill, your question confuses me.  What fate do you see me decrying?

@Imp: I'm saying that if you were a scum, it makes a lot of sense for you to be the one saying that all is lost for town.

Here's what I'd asked:

Quote from: Imp on November 01, 2013, 07:03:52 am

Quote from: Squill on November 01, 2013, 05:17:00 am

Motherfuck. Forgot about the whole "Halloween" thing being yesterday when I posted.

@Imp: I think it's possible that you are pretending to be upset to appeal to townies. After all, what better way to look like town than, when the game goes poorly, to be the loudest one decrying your fate?
@bsnott: Are you here? Why bother replacing if you aren't gonna play?

Squill, your question confuses me.  What fate do you see me decrying?

I have spoken of being depressed by inactivity.  Without more activity in this thread, I'm not going to have much more to give this game - I'm understanding better how players work as a team, and how truly little any one player can do alone.

I am outraged by the lack of rules enforcement and following.  That's not a player issue, as in it's not any player's fault (the absence from play is but the enforcement of that is not a player's fault) and its nothing any player can fix.  I've stated my views clearly on that issue, the Mod has made his decision, and I've also stated that if most of the other players in this game are going to be active then I'm going to play too.

Do you believe I'm trying to look Town by being the loudest one decrying my fate?

So you 'answered it' by answering the first question I asked, with no comment on anything else I said and no response to the second question I asked.  And think that you answered it somewhere else.

Still, Tiruin's made the claim she thought she'd already asked for an extension when she joined the game near the end of D2, but couldn't make her first post until within 24 hours of the day end.  Despite being challenged about it twice, she still said she thought she did - then she said she thought no one wanted an extension so she didn't ask for one.

There's only 2 Scum among us.  No matter HOW SCUMMY everyones actions look to me, there's a hard limit of total Scum in this game. *Punches a wall in her imagination*.

Quote from: Squill on November 19, 2013, 03:37:13 pm

At least once, but if I remember correctly than a few times, you have said now that I am wrong about you not being questioned much. Looking back, maybe that was a bit of exaggeration. But I will maintain that at least relative to just about everyone but post-Deathsword Tiruin, you haven't been scumhunted against too much.

You may be remembering where I spoke of that first - it was to Puff, who appeared to hold an opinion opposite of yours:

Quote from: Pufferfish on November 09, 2013, 03:33:55 am

Quote from: Imp on November 06, 2013, 03:42:57 am

One last question I'd like to see if you'd like to answer before I properly respond to your post - and of course, feel free to decline if you see fit - Squill says that I've not been seriously scumhunted against yet.

Quote from: Squill on November 05, 2013, 11:16:47 am

... that no one has seriously scumhunted against you yet.

That seems to be a very different viewpoint than yours, in how you describe D2 interactions.  Do you agree with what Squill says about my having not been 'seriously Scumhunted against' yet?

Yes. You have been scumhunted, but it took the sideline between you and RPG. I honestly almost missed it had I not been going post by post. Seriously scumhunted? He was serious about the hunt.

Now, you maintain that by 'just about everyone' but Tiruin, I have not been 'Scumhunted against' too much.

But you define Scumhunting here:

Quote from: Squill on November 19, 2013, 03:37:13 pm

Quote from: Imp on November 16, 2013, 08:11:02 am

How do you define serious Scumhunting, what do you recognize as serious Scumhunting?

As serious scumhunting, I refer to drawn out conversations with questions and answers coming from both parties, much like this current conversation with you.

So maybe I should have asked you what 'Scumhunted against' means - if that's not the same thing as 'serious Scumhunting' to you (consider this a question that requires an answer if you DO have a different defintion for 'Scumhunted against').

But since I didn't know to ask you that earlier, now I need to ask about your perceptions of the whole game.

I've had 'back and forth' conversations with most players this entire game.  Every D of the game.  Especially D1, where I had significant back and forths with every player in the game - and those players who 'clammed up' like yourself and the far-worse Luke I poured -vast- effort into trying to create that back and forth.

D2 I forced there to be back and forth between Cat and myself, he was just flat out goofing off and I -had- to force it.  I tried to have it with Zero, but D2 he went silent after one exchange.  I tried to have it with Darvi who was silent all of D2 save for one brief and utterly non-interactive 'oops' post.  And there was extensive back and forth interaction with both Rolepgeek and Deathsword much of D2.  Why was there so 'little' with you?  Look to yourself for at least half of that answer.  Your behavior and choices influence the outcome of this game for good and ill as much as everyone elses.

D3 I was initally silent, and in deep protest, seeing a certain Scum win from the level of inactivity present in yourself, Tiruin, Mr.Zero.  Once circumstances changed and meaningful play appeared possible again - I have engaged in back and forth interactions - that I assure you on my end are focused on Scumhunting - with every player alive in game.

So I have to ask you, Squill.  What is up with -you-?  What is up with your interpretations of interactions, and 'lack of interaction'?

Quote from: Squill on November 19, 2013, 03:37:13 pm

Quote from: Imp on November 16, 2013, 08:11:02 am

Why did you decide that 'pushing for the end' was the answer you supported the most?  Were you giving up on your Wincon, at least for the time, were you 'sort of' boycotting the game, or what?

I think I still am pushing for the end a bit. I decided that taking a tie was preferable to playing past the point where the game could be played as intended at an almost guranteed loss. It was at the point where the game was meant to be played with x amount of people, but we had several less than that.

I agree, your play looks like that to me too.  I don't understand what you mean by "taking a tie" - what is a tie in Mafia games?  I don't believe we can have a tie - unless you mean 'cancel the game'.  I -do- still support that.

But I don't get to say that happens, and neither do you.  Only zombie can.  However - Squill, you can say when you stopped caring about a Town win.  You can point out the exact post in this thread where -you- gave up.  Where you switched from wanting Town to win, to not caring if Town won or not -you just wanted the game over.

I want to go back with whatever time is left and read backwards and forwards from that point.  I want to feel your intention, feel that shift, know that point of change.  That's hopefully going to be a good enough test of you, for me to lock in your 'flavor'- to feel what you wanted before, and compare that to what I feel from you now.

That's probably the best 'clear test' of you I'm going to be able to find to understand your alignment in this game.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 3 -
Post by: Tiruin on November 19, 2013, 08:21:46 pm

Quote from: Squill on November 19, 2013, 03:37:13 pm

Quote from: Imp on November 16, 2013, 08:11:02 am

Are you considering at all that one vote is almost -never- enough to lynch anyone, especially if players are following the thread?

If I 'turn on someone' - all I can do is type words and place 1 vote.  I can try to be convincing,  I can try anything I please - but if I act wrongly, if I behave counter to reasonable behavior - that is scummy, yes?  There are other players in the game, and each of them has a vote.  If I 'turn on someone' in a way that anyone feels as inappropriate, there are many solutions.  Some involve words, some involve votes.  One person cannot usually lynch anyone, but one person can sure get lynched by behaving wrongly.  It's not possible to turn on 'everyone', is it?  And if that was done, would that not hasten the lynch of that offending and offensive player (well, maybe not in lylo, but certainly before then?)

Not quite sure how to respond to this, do you want answers to each individual question?
For now, here's a blanket answer: One player can make a lynch, because one player, especially one as active as you, has some capability to convince others. That is, after all, one of the main points of playing the game.

This is intriguing. How can an active player influence the game when others just...jump on their assessment rather than give out their own personal ideas? The main points of playing the game also lie in the crux of philosophy--to discover and analyze. While there are common points of agreement, you can't justsay 'I wholeheartedly agree' then hop along the convincing train.

Surely, by due reason, you have ideas of your own. Ideas that, while not exactly conflicting, go askew from the line of thought the 'active' player has, hmm?

The main points of playing the game do not necessarily lie in convincing others, but in being correct in discernment. The convincing is usually after observing/detecting is done.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 3
Post by: zombie urist on November 19, 2013, 10:40:44 pm

Day ends Tuesday November 19th 9 PM PST. ~1 hour 20 mins from this post

Imp - Pufferfish
squill -
bsnott -
Pufferfish - bsnott, Tiruin, Imp
Tiruin -

Not voting - squill

0 to extend, 2 needed
1 to shorten, 3 needed

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 3
Post by: zombie urist on November 20, 2013, 12:05:08 am

Another day passed tensely here at the cargo bay. The arguments shifted many times, paranoia causing everyone to closely examine everyone else. But at the end of the day, a clear candidate was selected. "Pufferfish must be infected" the robots beep. ZOM-B acknowledges the robots' verdict and prepares the crusher to accept another robot body. Pufferfish is forced into the machine and with a crunch has his shell pulverized.

ZOM-B takes his remains and quickly scans it. It doesn't take long this time. Almost immediately, ZOM-B warns "MALWARE DETECTED IN PUFFERFISH'S MEMORY". A nearby chute opens, and the rest of the robots push him in. His body will be incinerated.

Content with their decision, the robots retire to their chargers.

================

Pufferfish has been lynched! He was an infected robot (mafia goon)

================

Night 3 will end Wednesday November 20th 9PM PST

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 4
Post by: zombie urist on November 21, 2013, 12:33:02 am

Fresh from a night of sleep and productive day yesterday, the robots eagerly gathered again at the center of the room. Unfortunately they soon realize that one of their compatriots is not present amongst them. A brief search reveals a horrifying sight. bsnott's body was high in the air, supported by a forklift going through the middle of his torso. The robots quickly lower his remains and presents it to ZOM-B to analyze. Another loyal worker down.

===========================

bsnott has been killed! He was a vanilla townie.

===========================

Day 4 will end Friday November 22nd 9PM PST

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 4 - Open the cargo bay door
Post by: Imp on November 21, 2013, 12:58:59 am

Squill, you haven't been voting at the end of D for the past two Days.  Do you plan to use your vote this Day?

What do you think about Mafia games in general, is it 'a game for you' do you think?  Do you think most other Mafia games are very similar to a BM?

Now that we're down to Three, what do you think about the alignment of Tiruin and myself?

If the day was ending, and I was voting for Tiruin and she was voting for me - and you have no more information than you do right now - what would you do with your vote and why?

I had a few questions pending for you from before day end, they're in the post immediately before the end of day 3 post.

Tiruin:  What are your thoughts about this game now?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 4 - Open the cargo bay door
Post by: Tiruin on November 21, 2013, 01:33:42 am

Quote from: Imp on November 21, 2013, 12:58:59 am

Tiruin:  What are your thoughts about this game now?

That I'd give my superficial note as a player and attack Squill due to spurious process of logic in his acts, most notably of D3 and emphasis goes on how he pegged you down due to a technical expression of the self.

Squill: I await your answers to my queries. I will also indulge in the thinking game.

Say, if I'm voting Imp and Imp is voting me, what would be your response to this situation?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 4 - Open the cargo bay door
Post by: Tiruin on November 21, 2013, 02:26:46 am

Quote from: Imp on November 21, 2013, 12:58:59 am

Tiruin:  What are your thoughts about this game now?

Now onto the neutral side!
..My thoughts are jumbled and mostly scattered. Some of them blame me for my lack of motivating the people given how activity...took a sharp curve. Like DF's difficulty curve.

Imp has a special mention for doing the motivating despite being a player, and in my sight, has exceeded expectations in being quite notable in her acts. She has appeared Towny to me through most things I judge by, though..I get a niggling feeling about her. Bleh, must just be my doubt. Whether scum or town, I can't peg much or at all on the former and would be proud to see her as the latter.

..Though I did not like the note on 'scum, please kill me!' -- it didn't come off as goading back then. Something to refrain from saying, if town or scum. I..would probably not want to discuss how that works with me as I guess the effect others would interpret it as is subjective, but..as a player, I don't think that's a reasonable way to say stuff (despite it being a rant) :s
^{Also I'd like any other people to voice out their viewpoints on the players and the ICs given how our discussion in that one BM thread is going, to be placed here.}

Quote from: Tiruin on November 21, 2013, 01:33:42 am

Quote from: Imp on November 21, 2013, 12:58:59 am

Tiruin:  What are your thoughts about this game now?

That I'd give my superficial note as a player and attack Squill due to spurious process of logic in his acts, most notably of D3 and emphasis goes on how he pegged you down due to a technical expression of the self.

Expounding: While it could be said that others stand out on how scummy Squill is, what keeps on being stuck on my mind when I think of his role here is that one time what he did. It didn't speak well of the intent. It's like the principle of double effect-1 good and 1 bad, inverted. Yes you may be voting out a person--however the context of using that vote lay purely on a technical (and analytical, given how it was worded) basis.

Something I really doubt any townie would do.

Imp: Have I missed anything which you'd like to ask me?

---

Squill:
Apologies for my lack of teaching. I'm not the best teacher; not good in motivating, persuading or encouraging others-as what my self-esteem says to me-nor do I seem to inculcate the glory of learning or the thrill of discovery despite my own knowledge and pursuits within that field.

But let me level my inquiries into this list. Disregard all else:
One, being this scenario.

Quote from: Tiruin on November 21, 2013, 01:33:42 am

Say, if I'm voting Imp and Imp is voting me, what would be your response to this situation?

Two, being my note (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4758429#msg4758429) on your attack on Imp. If you had to post to show activity, then why hit Imp on what she said at that time?

---

---

Edit-realization:
..Squill has announced that he needs a replacement. Argh.
..

...Y'know I am in favor of what Imp's proposal is given that notion (player is favoring to be replaced due to probably external factors).

Quote from: Imp on November 18, 2013, 07:38:51 pm

just cancel the game, do role flips, open the chats

As of another thought: This...is a prime example of how activity works out in a forum mafia game. Any details specifying how, explained, would probably lead to me unintentionally giving dishonor to anyone else.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 4 - Open the cargo bay door
Post by: Imp on November 21, 2013, 03:50:57 am

Tiruin:

Quote from: Tiruin on November 21, 2013, 02:26:46 am

I get a niggling feeling about her

It's possible you -always- will.  Always.  There's an 'evil' called up by games of this sort, at least potentially.  I have a lot of 'potentials'.  Not 'potential' - potentials.  I 'could be this, could be that' quite easily.  I'm a transmute, a metamorph, inside myself.  I'm a fractured mind, a multiple personality.  And an eager mirror, you show me you and I'll show you 'you' right back.  Despite that, I'm highly functional; I can easily hold a job for years, easily complete classes, easily remember where I live, where I parked my car and what I've said I'd do each day, and I conscientiously learn and obey the laws and rules of what I must or choose to participate in (rules of a game, laws of the land.... the difference is only in punishment for breaking any, and how likely each is to be enforced).  What I might not be is the same 'person' over time, heck, most of them time I'm probably better described as a crowd.  And some of the crowd is exactly the sort that people meet once in dark alleys, once because there isn't exactly a chance for twice after that once.  It's quite useful to be so for me - after all, one of the best ways to survive meeting one of those people who hunt the alleys is to have in your head a small pack of that sort of people.  It's worked for me at least.

Quote from: Tiruin on November 21, 2013, 02:26:46 am

..Though I did not like the note on 'scum, please kill me!' -- it didn't come off as goading back then. Something to refrain from saying, if town or scum. I..would probably not want to discuss how that works with me as I guess the effect others would interpret it as is subjective, but..as a player, I don't think that's a reasonable way to say stuff (despite it being a rant) :s

I guess it belongs in the category of 'rant'.

For now only those who are Scum know if I was Scum or Town when I said this:

Quote from: Imp on October 25, 2013, 08:25:15 pm

Scum, should you not be totally idle and ignoring this thread; we're going to N2 (maybe).  You've got a night kill.  Be merciful.  I think I'm suffering more than anyone here.  Do me a favor, mmm?  End my pain.  Removing me as a living player: if the game does not get cancelled, that is the fastest way out of this game for me.

However I will tell you, now and later (should you ask again) that what I said was not a 'goad' in the sense of a challenge, a dare, a trick.

I was not talking to Town, other than that both Scum and Town read this thread.

Town reading it or not was inconsequential to me.  What I typed was not a goad, it was a request.  I meant every word I typed.  I meant every word I typed above it too.

I almost cannot bring myself to express or explain my emotions remembered as I recall that post.  To say that this game has 'Effed with my head' in more ways than one is accurate - I'm choosing not to try and explain what I felt then, and why.

Some of it's older than this thread anyway, older than some of the people who play here.  I have a dark past, I've faced a lot of 'bad tricks'.  This game seems to touch certain things in me, certain ways some people play seem to affect me 'more than you'd think'.  That's not all bad.

Possibly because I almost reflexively open my mind to try and reach to the other players to 'better understand each'.  I may or may not imagine I have reached them - but I sure have opened my mind.  It's closed for my own good, most of the time.  Hostile touch is hostile. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CaqQF4l_8Ks)

However, there's players with class too.  I'm pretty much a mirror, long as there's some good to reflect too I'm not going to head off to any major psychological extremes.

So, about a reasonable way to say stuff, or something.  What I -meant- was 'I am done with this bleeping game.  My last nerve has been cut, my last hope has been dashed, I'm done feeling betrayed and I'm done seeing the rule spat on.  Get me out of here.  Now.'

It's about two-three small steps away from saying 'bleep this game, bleep these players, bleep the time I wasted here, bleep the bleep I tolerated from the bleep I played beside'.  However, I don't agree I was ranting.  I do however possess close to 0 tolerance of bullying, and it's an odd circumstance indeed that involves me tolerating, at any time and in any way, observation or interaction with such.  If it's on TV, I turn the TV off.  If it's in a story, I close the book.  If it's in real life, be me the target or not, I -stop- the bully, sometimes scaring them severely in the process.

And perhaps, to you, there's no right way to say what I intended to say, which was, literally and sincerely within the limits of this game - 'It's time, I'm ready, I'm done.  Kill me.'

Quote from: Tiruin on November 21, 2013, 02:26:46 am

...Y'know I am in favor of what Imp's proposal is given that notion (player is favoring to be replaced due to probably external factors).

Quote from: Imp on November 18, 2013, 07:38:51 pm

just cancel the game, do role flips, open the chats

*eyeroll*  Now you're just teasing, right?  I haven't -stopped- being in favor of this game ending.  I feel some weird 'something', guilt maybe and confusion certainly about Kleril thinking that ending the game would be -cheating-.  Bizarre.  Incomprehensible.  Except he was the player that talked about faith in me and all the rest he said.  Kleril, I ain't god and I'm too newbie to even be good.  This is a real -mess- to try and sort through and even down to only -two- to pick between I'm not sure I can find you a win.

Otherwise I don't understand 'cheating' as a result of 'the game should have been stopped a long time ago'.  But I can say that I've learned enough that I don't think I'd work to off a player such as yourself on a D1, even if we looked at each other and 'it happened again' - that player walked off with their trust and mine and I walked off with my suspicion and theirs.  Or whatever the heck happened that weird time back on D1.  And for sure I'm not going to 'hit' people like yourself that hard again in these games.  Other people not like yourself, maybe.

Quote from: Tiruin on November 21, 2013, 02:26:46 am

Imp: Have I missed anything which you'd like to ask me?

Sort of.  But that's because I haven't asked it yet.

Aha.  Here's how I'll ask.

Explain to me your 'mindset' when you joined this game, what your intentions were then.  No really - what did you intend to do in your play, both D2, early D3, mid D3, and late D3.  Explain to me too now your 'mindset' as you play this game, what your intentions are now.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 4 - Open the cargo bay door
Post by: Squill on November 21, 2013, 05:09:02 pm

Sorry, too busy to post today.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 4 - Open the cargo bay door
Post by: Imp on November 21, 2013, 06:07:22 pm

Quote from: Squill on November 21, 2013, 05:09:02 pm

Sorry, too busy to post today.

From this, it appears we need an extension?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 3
Post by: zombie urist on November 21, 2013, 06:12:40 pm

Day ends Friday Nomeber 22nd 9 PM PST.

Imp -
squill - Tiruin
Tiruin -

Not voting - squill, Imp

1 to extend, 2 needed
0 to shorten, 2 needed

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 4 - Open the cargo bay door
Post by: Tiruin on November 21, 2013, 08:18:43 pm

Quote from: Imp on November 21, 2013, 06:07:22 pm

Quote from: Squill on November 21, 2013, 05:09:02 pm

Sorry, too busy to post today.

From this, it appears we need an extension?

Yay Squill!

Extend it up!

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 4 - Open the cargo bay door
Post by: zombie urist on November 22, 2013, 01:10:17 am

Day extended to Tuesday November 26th 9 PM PST.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 4 - Open the cargo bay door
Post by: Imp on November 22, 2013, 10:26:09 pm

Prods?  Posts?  Cancelations?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 4 - Open the cargo bay door
Post by: Squill on November 22, 2013, 10:57:07 pm

Between homework and visiting relatives, I'm not sure how much I'll actually be able to play.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 4 - Open the cargo bay door
Post by: Gentlefish on November 22, 2013, 11:13:06 pm

Ghost-post!

Haha yay Thanksgiving! Might I offer the idea of a Thanksgiving-week-hiatus if anyone is interested at all in doing so?

And wow I did not really stand much chance did I, haha, I tried.  :P

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 4 - Open the cargo bay door
Post by: Imp on November 23, 2013, 12:07:06 am

Quote from: Pufferfish on November 22, 2013, 11:13:06 pm

Ghost-post!

Haha yay Thanksgiving! Might I offer the idea of a Thanksgiving-week-hiatus if anyone is interested at all in doing so?

And wow I did not really stand much chance did I, haha, I tried.  :P

Puff:

Scum win almost every game.  Your method was rather odd, probably didn't help you.  But I do believe you tried.

Besides, your death doesn't mean you lose, if you're aware of that, maybe not.

If Scum win, dead Scum win too.  Same with Town, if Town win, dead Town win too.

Kleril, this one's for you.  The one for me, that involves something you'd call cheating.


Squill.  There's more than one way to ask you a question.  More than one way to play.  And more than one way to end a game.

It was a hard choice for me, to decide between you and Tiruin.  But I have.  I've decided to believe that you are Town.

Tiruin walked in here without an intention of winning.  She wasn't careful enough in deciding who to vote for.  She wasn't Tiruin enough.

If she's Town, she deserves to lose.  She is an IC.  She knows better.  If not, this might teach her.  People come to BMs to learn.  Apparently the ICs too.  Maybe Tiruin tries harder to be Town when she's Scum.  Alright Tiruin; if that's true, you can die when you are Town because of that.  Deathsword too, who tarnished his role as IC in more than one way, Deathsword too, who if he is Town played so poorly he deserves to lose for it.

Town is hard.  I'm starting to think a lot of players sign up for these games, the experienced players, and not just those who offer to be ICs in BMs, but they sign up for these games wanting to be Scum, and don't care anymore when they find out they are Town.  Very much a self fulfilling prophecy, 'Town's going to lose so why try hard'.

So Squill, you've got a little more play to do, or not.

I don't see me changing my vote.  I'm done too.

So you can not vote and ensure the Scum win.

Or you can vote for me and ensure the Scum win, which will happen regardless of if Tiruin switches her vote from you to me or not.

Or you can vote for Tiruin, and possibly, if you are not Scum, Town might just win.

zombie urist -

if you let this game happen as it has because you thought you were doing the right thing, you were wrong.

If you ignored the lurkiness of Darvi, of Deathsword, of many of the newbie players because you thought you were doing the right thing to do so, you were wrong.

If you allowed this game to be played out under these conditions because you thought you would be wrong if you stopped it - you are wrong.

Squill, as far as I'm concerned, everything is in your hands now.  I'm Town, and I have been all game.  Every choice I've made is a Town choice, no matter if that choice was right or wrong.  You've played beside me this entire game, and if you cannot read my actions throughout as Town, then I guess you need to see that you were wrong too.  I'm not very sure about you.  You haven't worked for a Town win.  But you're not the only one.  And Tiruin -should- have.  And she didn't.

So.  I give you my decision.  You make the final call, whether you want to give Town a chance to win, or whether you do not.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 4 - Open the cargo bay door
Post by: Squill on November 23, 2013, 07:55:45 am

Ok, I managed to get a little bit of time to post this morning.

Quote from: Imp on November 21, 2013, 12:58:59 am

Squill, you haven't been voting at the end of D for the past two Days.  Do you plan to use your vote this Day?

What do you think about Mafia games in general, is it 'a game for you' do you think?  Do you think most other Mafia games are very similar to a BM?

Now that we're down to Three, what do you think about the alignment of Tiruin and myself?

If the day was ending, and I was voting for Tiruin and she was voting for me - and you have no more information than you do right now - what would you do with your vote and why?

I had a few questions pending for you from before day end, they're in the post immediately before the end of day 3 post.

In answer to your questions, I do plan on using my vote today.
I do not think it is a game for me, as due to the rather poor communication, I usually do not know what is going on two months in advance. On top of that, I cannot entirely promise that I will remain interested in this game for long enough periods of time to play a good game.
As for the alignment of you and Tiruin, I think that despite being a poor IC, I think she is town, and that you are scum. Will discuss below.
I would vote for you, Imp, because that I think that you are scum.

Quote from: Tiruin on November 19, 2013, 08:21:46 pm

This is intriguing. How can an active player influence the game when others just...jump on their assessment rather than give out their own personal ideas? The main points of playing the game also lie in the crux of philosophy--to discover and analyze. While there are common points of agreement, you can't justsay 'I wholeheartedly agree' then hop along the convincing train.

Surely, by due reason, you have ideas of your own. Ideas that, while not exactly conflicting, go askew from the line of thought the 'active' player has, hmm?

The main points of playing the game do not necessarily lie in convincing others, but in being correct in discernment. The convincing is usually after observing/detecting is done.

Is that first question rhetorical? In case it isn't, I think that it is much easier to influence the game if people jump on your bandwagon for no good reason.
Not quite sure what you mean here, but if you're asking whether or not I agree with Imp, then the answer is no. My train of thought just died a tragic and brutal death, so I'm not at all sure if that was what you're asking.

Quote from: Imp on November 23, 2013, 12:07:06 am

-snip-

@Imp:
This sets serious alarm bells in my head. You are asking me to lynch Tiruin because she deserves it?
Do you expect me to lynch her, just because she's voting on me at the moment?
To me, this seems like a last ditch effort to give me an easy lynch on the person who is trying to lynch me right now.

Also, thanks for telling us all that every choice you've made is town, that helps a lot./sarcasm

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 4 - Open the cargo bay door
Post by: Tiruin on November 23, 2013, 09:03:06 am

Intriguing. A melancholic note, Imp. That is a full swing of thought from your previous words. You take a thorough route and deign to support your vote?

I can understand some kind of vexation against DS, and Darvi for their lesser-than-expected performance (one on busy-ness, two on...unexplained leave), but tagging me as

Quote

Tiruin walked in here without an intention of winning.  She wasn't careful enough in deciding who to vote for.  She wasn't Tiruin enough.

This?

This underhanded slap to my dignity more than my role as a player? MY INTENT IS TO WIN, BUT TO ALSO TEACH. I DO NOT JOIN GAMES JUST TO THROWAWAY SUCH NOTIONS AND WASTE A VALUABLE SLOT AS A PLAYER.
And to think otherwise of me is no less an insult than an attack to my honor.

Quote

If she's Town, she deserves to lose.  She is an IC.  She knows better.  If not, this might teach her.  People come to BMs to learn.  Apparently the ICs too.  Maybe Tiruin tries harder to be Town when she's Scum.  Alright Tiruin; if that's true, you can die when you are Town because of that.  Deathsword too, who tarnished his role as IC in more than one way, Deathsword too, who if he is Town played so poorly he deserves to lose for it.

Ahh, so if I flip town, I deserved my fate? You appeal to some kind of notion that I can't exactly nail down, but seemingly take a overtly-righteous stance that somehow, player ethics or values come in question and denounce others about it. The orange part? Forgive my eloquence, but I call BS on it. It seems you've a diction on what defines town more than how you see people play as town, yes?

Because the bolded portion afterwards seems more related than not. Same goes for relating Deathsword, who, I have to say, isn't playing anymore. Any below-the-belt quips at him can be addressed in personal matters, or post-game. The mere note that you're announcing it in public and looking at the IC role--as compared to what the player announces when playing said role--seems that you've an annoyance with this.

The following statements you give appeal more than to emotions with lacking note. I could understand the deal with frustration, but there are better ways to word it. If I've to take a tup of your style there: You're bringing it into extremes. Either/Or, me or Tiruin? Help town win by voting the other?

I see reluctance and contradiction in the same post.

Quote

It was a hard choice for me, to decide between you and Tiruin.  But I have.  I've decided to believe that you are Town.

Why is Squill town?

Quote

I don't see me changing my vote.  I'm done too.

Why close all lines of communication? Other than give the gesture of being rude, this isn't town-play and rather gives the notion of 'IT'S EITHER YOU OR ME, PUNK.' with the appended insult being optional.

Quote

Town is hard.  I'm starting to think a lot of players sign up for these games, the experienced players, and not just those who offer to be ICs in BMs, but they sign up for these games wanting to be Scum, and don't care anymore when they find out they are Town.  Very much a self fulfilling prophecy, 'Town's going to lose so why try hard'.

I'd keep my silence and respect your opinion here, but I choose to speak.

To speak on behalf on those who favor one side or another. Contrived bias forms from a playstyle which does so, and to keep on wanting scum-due to the want of manipulation, perhaps-or to want town due to how 'innocent' it appears does not hold the crux of Mafia. What matters is how you communicate, regardless of alignment.

Heck yes. Town is frickin' hard. Yet gloriously satisfying when played well. Scum, in the general notion is frickin' easy. But in how you play your role is the note that matters. For me, I go lone wolf no matter which alignment I am. Looking to the group as always, yet always wary of my path. The bolded note there appears to me that you've taken a sip from the cup of bias, and dictate a pillar of knowledge without the foundation of wisdom.

Meaning: That's a pretty scathing accusation there. Subtly calling me a cheap player who throwsaway the decent notion of scumhunting, even though it was never said--though worded precisely, in your vote and motive.

'Don't care'. 'but'. 'not just'.

All those definitives used in a way to give a concrete stand on your opinion. While I respect that you have an opinion, I have to take a stand and challenge it in its entirety.

Let me round this code of intrigue with a simple question.

What are you doing, Imp? Can you define what makes a Townie, in brevity?

Quote from: Imp on November 21, 2013, 03:50:57 am

Explain to me your 'mindset' when you joined this game, what your intentions were then.  No really - what did you intend to do in your play, both D2, early D3, mid D3, and late D3.  Explain to me too now your 'mindset' as you play this game, what your intentions are now.

Simple in two words. "Play." "Win."
If you unfortunately expected me, as an IC rather than a player to teach rather than play, then you are wrong.
If you unfortunately expected me, as a player rather than an IC, to play rather than teach, then you are still wrong.
Both go in tandem; both go with the player's character and personality.
What I intended to do is to keep notes. To pursue the scientific Mafia process of checking in and out:
 Firstly, to note if all players in-game have at least conscious knowledge how the game is played, so as to keep voluntariness in playing.
 Secondly, is to play by fire. To play my game as I would a real game. Lacking fervor? Perhaps. Lacking notes? Perhaps. Though I have to detail that there are few times where you--or anyone--can predict my playstyle. I am amorphous. An amalgam of thoughts. What I intend to do is seen by my posts, and despite my RL duties, I try my best to keep up with what I start. And what I start, I see to the thrice damned finish.
 Thirdly, do you take a focus to what I did in exacts during that time, or do you see me explaining myself here--compared to what I posted, and did then--some sort of summary or defense against anything you have? What I said, is what I said. That is why there are no edits in Mafia. Your word is your word, and any interpretation pertaining to it denotes a rational following.

Though I have to note. If I am to be insulted, then bring that trash to my face rather than subtly hint it out.

Quote

Scum win almost every game.  Your method was rather odd, probably didn't help you.  But I do believe you tried.

While the statistics don't lie, its in how the game is played that matters and how the set-up is done. All else are up to the players.

Quote from: Imp on November 23, 2013, 12:07:06 am

Squill, as far as I'm concerned, everything is in your hands now. I'm Town, and I have been all game.  Every choice I've made is a Town choice, no matter if that choice was right or wrong.  You've played beside me this entire game, and if you cannot read my actions throughout as Town, then I guess you need to see that you were wrong too.  I'm not very sure about you.  You haven't worked for a Town win.  But you're not the only one.  And Tiruin -should- have.  And she didn't.

So.  I give you my decision.  You make the final call, whether you want to give Town a chance to win, or whether you do not.

And you give him a decision--something he always had, as an ultimatum, hmm?
You're appealing to the one you rank as 'town'. How sure are you of him being town? How sure are you of me being scum? Playstyle? Fervor? Passion? Number of posts?
The bolded note is a superficial add-on. You have no need to say that unless you're using it as a bargaining token. You don't change roles and come-traitor to the team you're on. What is that even for? Are you giving up after all this time?
And on the underlined part. What kind of reasoning is that?

You state on terminology, but lack how its played out. It's like an alleged zealot professing that their actions are right 'because they stand for the greater good!'. You may be donned in shining armor, with a polished cape and a stern will, but when it is time to kill your foe, do you stay your blade or end their life, because 'what you did was good'? This is rhetorical.

You may stand on an alignment, one way or another, yet it is by your action in itself which keep you to that alignment. I hope you're familiar with that given a history of D&D?

I will cease to speak for the latest bolded portion, as it is a direct attack against the person. I only have to ask...Why.

Why would you resort to such low means, that all sorts of logic frown upon to do that? Such a flippant act is...disgusting. You judge before the hammer is given, and the verdict is layed. You speak behind my back, yet all your vote entails is a shallow stab at me. And not just me, but everyone before me. You carry a vendetta against them? So be it.

But when you make it into the area of argumentum ad hominem, then I am lost for words. Have I taught wrong? Am I lacking? Does my playstyle not carry even a note of learning in it--if so far that I've done evil, then let your acts be opposite to mine, and learn from it! Why must you address another and denounce me that way, when I am no farther than where Squill stands in listening to you?

---

---

Squill:

Quote

Is that first question rhetorical? In case it isn't, I think that it is much easier to influence the game if people jump on your bandwagon for no good reason.

It is only rhetorical if it concludes, in that matter.
...
So how are people jumping on a bandwagon an influence to the game? Does it not matter their intent or how/why they do so? Why do you use the 'bandwagon' as a term there? You do know that it has a negative meaning when used in Mafia, yes?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 4 - Open the cargo bay door
Post by: Tiruin on November 23, 2013, 09:07:35 am

Quote from: Squill on November 23, 2013, 07:55:45 am

As for the alignment of you and Tiruin, I think that despite being a poor IC[...]

Wait, this just seals it. I...ask only one thing.

I will ask on why you think I am town in contrast to Imp, but then I fear that it'll be taken wrong.

Quote

I do not think it is a game for me, as due to the rather poor communication, I usually do not know what is going on two months in advance. On top of that, I cannot entirely promise that I will remain interested in this game for long enough periods of time to play a good game.

What communication is there that is lacking?
In RL mafia, you have verbal as well as body language--the other side of the coin which speaks when words are not spoken. Here, you have textual--akin to verbal communication that you may relay all words constructed in your mind, and may also look back on what you and others have said, that the memory does not wane.

I fail to see how poor communication relates in this scenario, or if at all, in this mode of presenting information. Can you explain?

...Why am I a poor IC, that you only take mention of it now rather than before?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 4 - Open the cargo bay door
Post by: Squill on November 23, 2013, 09:52:14 am

Quote from: Tiruin on November 23, 2013, 09:03:06 am

Squill:

Quote

Is that first question rhetorical? In case it isn't, I think that it is much easier to influence the game if people jump on your bandwagon for no good reason.

It is only rhetorical if it concludes, in that matter.
...
So how are people jumping on a bandwagon an influence to the game? Does it not matter their intent or how/why they do so? Why do you use the 'bandwagon' as a term there? You do know that it has a negative meaning when used in Mafia, yes?

People jumping on a bandwagon influences the game by blindly following people, leading to the lynch of people without proper investigation.

Quote from: Tiruin on November 23, 2013, 09:07:35 am

I fail to see how poor communication relates in this scenario, or if at all, in this mode of presenting information. Can you explain?

Sorry for being unclear, I meant poor communication with my family IRL; for example, I didn't know we'd have relatives over for a week until a few days before they came.

On that note, this is probably the last post I can make here today.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 4 - Open the cargo bay door
Post by: Imp on November 23, 2013, 02:08:05 pm

No Squill.

Keep in mind, if I'm Scum, I know you're Town.

Tiruin's willing to lynch you.  I'd need to dance, maybe.  I could pick on your not very good Towniness.  Then Tiruin and I 'shake hands' and lynch the 'most probable Scum', that being you, and I win.

It actually would have been -way easier- to get a Town win if I believe you're the Scum.  All I have to do is look into Tiruin's play, forgive her Scummy choices as Scummy choices, and we kill you.  That's easy - if only Tiruin's Town and you are Scum.

Unfortunately, I fear that's not the case.  And I'm sure enough - I've played beside Tiruin in a now finished game.  I have seen how she talked in the game thread, and how she talked in Scum chat.  I've also seen her vote in a situation that was way more pressured and confusing than our end of D2 situation that she replaced into, though I don't know if she's what alignment there and it's not over so I shouldn't discuss it - but I have -seen it and felt it-.

If Tiruin's Town, she's playing terribly, and she tries harder everywhere else.  That's not the Tiruin I know.  She -can- and -does- play to her Wincon, even under emotional distress, even under pressure and emotional distress.

Thus she -was- playing to it, even here.  And if my analysis is wrong - Shame on Tiruin, not just me.  Tiruin -failed- this game, if she is Town.  And I can live with losing because that means that -she- loses too.  Because she -is- an IC.  She -asked- to replace in.  And she knows what that means, period.

But there's the other side of the coin.  Tiruin is Scum.  In that case, she -is- playing to her Wincon.  It's just not a Town wincon.

Tiruin:  I do as I do because your play has disgusted me.  You are clearly playing to your Wincon, and that wincon is not Town.  You're offended?  I'm offended too, and you can have that offendedness right back.

I viewed Squill alone as ~40% likely to be Town.  I viewed you alone as ~5% likely to be Town.  When I view you both together, that's why I pick Squill to be Town.

This game -should- have been stopped.  It was not.  It is a garbage travesty of what a BM should be, of what any game should be.

I have decided that I feel NO SHAME in losing this game, so long as I use my vote as it should be used.

I have known for about the entirety of D3 that Squill has no trust or liking of me.

That Squill believes that I would, being -Scum- waste Lylo on a long and protracted fight with my partner, a fight that could end only in the death of one Scum or the other - that proves only that Squill doesn't think very clearly, or that he thinks WAY to much of my craftiness and way to little of my desire to win, especially when the win is at hand.

---

---

---

---

---

---

I'm essentially back in 'early D3 again', powerless except for my vote.  With no one to join me, to help me, to also vote and make there be any chance of a Town win.  So be it.  I can't fight that situation.  I have -no power-.  So be it.  I've been here before, and I expected to die then and see my game lost.  I expect the same here.  There is -nothing- I can do to change this.  The power to change it exists, but it is not in my hands, and not under my control.

It's not in the hands of the Scum either.

It's in Squill's hands.  The confused, but clearly not Scum newbie who -if he were Scum- would know he could safely vote for either me or Tiruin.  At the point of my failure, of my powerlessness, of my utter helplessness, I look into my would-be killer's mind again, as I stared into bsnott's.  And I see Town.  That is Town with their gun to my head, Town with their hands on my throat.

That makes me remain powerless.  If I switch my vote to Squill, in lylo, there is no possible chance of a Town win.  The only possible chance of a Town win is for Squill to switch his vote to Tiruin.

I now view Squill as confirmed Town.  Since I know my alignment there's only one choice left for possible Scum.

Squill, do as you do.  You -know- if I were Scum, I need only paint you as Scum and join Tiruin in voting for you.  Game over, Scum win.  But I -cannot- do that.  That is proof I am Town, the best, most direct, truest proof I can offer you, that I am Town.

I ask you to do as you do, Squill.  But I hope you consider deeply why I would, Being Scum, insist on voting for Tiruin and refuse to join her in voting for you - if I am Scum, the death of -either- Town wins the game for me.  I tell you that I do what I do because I believe you are Town, and I am also Town.  The only possible Town win here is to lynch Tiruin.

I will not flinch from what I see as the last hope of a Town win.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 4 - Open the cargo bay door
Post by: Tiruin on November 23, 2013, 03:17:40 pm

Ahh, I do love my tactics. Let us round this train.

Quote

Tiruin's willing to lynch you.  I'd need to dance, maybe.  I could pick on your not very good Towniness.  Then Tiruin and I 'shake hands' and lynch the 'most probable Scum', that being you, and I win.

Willing? My dear. Is it that I keep my vote on him that I am willing? I question the both of you, with varying levels of trust in between, and to me, you taking the holier-than-thou path of...denouncing my play, being disgusted without drawing any tangible note, and in general spitting at everyone else--only apparent of this time being--dictates one thing.

That you, are scum.

Quote

I have seen how she talked in the game thread, and how she talked in Scum chat.  I've also seen her vote in a situation that was way more pressured and confusing than our end of D2 situation that she replaced into, though I don't know if she's what alignment there and it's not over so I shouldn't discuss it - but I have -seen it and felt it-.

Wherein you believe one game is enough to judge me like so and then discard me as some plaything to insult and then pull the strings to tout the lines of emotional appeals? You see, but do not state the differences which back your case. This is a dangerous mode of pseudo-deference in talking to Squill. If at all, dangerous that you try to make differences without stating what they are, exactly.

Quote

If Tiruin's Town, she's playing terribly, and she tries harder everywhere else.  That's not the Tiruin I know.  She -can- and -does- play to her Wincon, even under emotional distress, even under pressure and emotional distress.

Then who is the Tiruin you know? What wincon do you think I'm playing under? How terrible am I doing that you begin to insult me as a person rather than a player?

Quote

Tiruin:  I do as I do because your play has disgusted me.  You are clearly playing to your Wincon, and that wincon is not Town.  You're offended?  I'm offended too, and you can have that offendedness right back.

My play wherein I state my errors and take it like a (wo)man? Wherein I debate with you in full respect and what I get back is a misinterpretation that bogs the line between mudslinging and utter denouncement? Wherein the arguments toe the line of sharp-offendedness?
What play is it that you poke at? My errors to which I admitted full honesty to, or perhaps you're seeing things back there which you aren't stating but rather, generalizing?

Quote

I viewed Squill alone as ~40% likely to be Town.  I viewed you alone as ~5% likely to be Town.  When I view you both together, that's why I pick Squill to be Town.

In which you don't even expound on why. If I was ~5% likely to be town, where was your vote to usher in the tide of vindication for all the dead who have died, and all the silence in between? The same scenario could be said in where you are scum--where you pull up numbers and adjectives as your case--to which I ask where it started, and where the errs lie at its end.

Quote

I have known for about the entirety of D3 that Squill has no trust or liking of me.

And like this would be something set in stone? Squill is a player, just like you. Players may distrust players, but there is--or has never been any, as far as my memory goes--situation wherein a player becomes purely blinded that total distrust occurs.

...Well, until you sounded your attack on me given that you will not change your vote.

Quote

That Squill believes that I would, being -Scum- waste Lylo on a long and protracted fight with my partner, a fight that could end only in the death of one Scum or the other - that proves only that Squill doesn't think very clearly, or that he thinks WAY to much of my craftiness and way to little of my desire to win, especially when the win is at hand.

Ah, but let me bring up a note that you yourself used to push the border. Remember how you outed Bsnott? Now let me bring in that superficial notice to how I extended. Doesn't that make me towny~?
This, is WIFOM. Why would you probably fight down your partner at the time being? He was scummy--you do notice that suspicion was on him for both his acts and responses to people, and his predecessor prior to him, yes? I do note that you fought with Rolepgeek, and in turn pressed against him as a glorious Townie would, but here?
..Here, it is a very different fight of a very different character under the same name. You clear yourself on that complexity, yet I have to note that there was a sense of apprehension. Of fear between Puff and you--how the attacks were made, they did not strike true, but struck at odds to lies and how the presentation was done.

---

Quote

I'm essentially back in 'early D3 again', powerless except for my vote.  With no one to join me, to help me, to also vote and make there be any chance of a Town win.  So be it.  I can't fight that situation.  I have -no power-.  So be it.  I've been here before, and I expected to die then and see my game lost.  I expect the same here.  There is -nothing- I can do to change this.  The power to change it exists, but it is not in my hands, and not under my control.

Woe be the poet! Whom melancholic sights seek ready dues! You doubt as doubt begets the doubter, and seek failure like a long lost friend! Where doth power stem but from the heart and choice of its wielder?
How powerless are you, but to convince the other against the other, if not scum persuading a brother?

You state too much of a 'town' perspective, stating it as if its a future that would exist. Meaning: I do note that you keep on, KEEP ON repeating the essentiality of a 'TOWN' anything, without bothering to reinforce your case or bring up a modum of attack which has its foundation in rational or logical law. You tout the nature of something being 'town', and then seemingly push the possum and play dead, dying or hopeless.

This is no rant--and if it be a rant, then I have little hope in persuing this matter. You play the role of a victim, grieving when grief isn't due, or bereave a fate which hasn't even occurred. I can forgive the context of it being inside a rant--for sometimes games take an emotional toll on the person that they do oft forget that any kind of post is a permanent and tangible sign of how you felt, and even then it would be public, for all to see--but here? Repeatedly? Again?

I asked only one thing, out of all others, on what you were doing, Imp. I get only a retort; a slathering and vile retort. That because of my deeds, you react as such? I can understand you labeling me as scum, but in acting both with anger to the person as well as the player and pulling all kinds of appeals to emotion, wincon, possibility, probability and telltale notion? Repeating the past as if its something relevant to base upon--when said past has little to no connection to the essence of Mafia at all?!

Quote

It's in Squill's hands.  The confused, but clearly not Scum newbie who -if he were Scum- would know he could safely vote for either me or Tiruin.  At the point of my failure, of my powerlessness, of my utter helplessness, I look into my would-be killer's mind again, as I stared into bsnott's.  And I see Town.  That is Town with their gun to my head, Town with their hands on my throat.

That makes me remain powerless.  If I switch my vote to Squill, in lylo, there is no possible chance of a Town win.  The only possible chance of a Town win is for Squill to switch his vote to Tiruin.

I now view Squill as confirmed Town.  Since I know my alignment there's only one choice left for possible Scum.

...You have plenty much to learn. And plenty much to drop off your ego. You think I'm blindsided to not consider--sans the personal insults you may or hopefully may not have stated directly at me--the core principle of the time? That I would be stoopidly enraged by these notions to not consider who exactly is scum or not? You attack like a cornered person, only aware of her own survival.

Do you consider that of the other two? Did you state why you consider one or the other?

Quote

Squill, do as you do.  You -know- if I were Scum, I need only paint you as Scum and join Tiruin in voting for you.  Game over, Scum win.  But I -cannot- do that.  That is proof I am Town, the best, most direct, truest proof I can offer you, that I am Town.

I ask you to do as you do, Squill.  But I hope you consider deeply why I would, Being Scum, insist on voting for Tiruin and refuse to join her in voting for you - if I am Scum, the death of -either- Town wins the game for me.  I tell you that I do what I do because I believe you are Town, and I am also Town.  The only possible Town win here is to lynch Tiruin.

No.

You beg the other person as if your target is bereft of communication. As if I am already dead in your eyes, that you see the only other person worth talking to. You put yourself in the hypothetical proposition that, if scum, would do otherwise given the tellings of recent time, yet fail to notice how this path leads to damnation. That is another appeal to the player on probability, inticing WIFOM yet again! "Why wouldn't I join this attack on you, Squill? If I am scum, then I would." Even if you were scum, I believe that you would consider the arguments based in front of you and not backtrack on your suspicions, no matter how subtle they are, yes?

However I do note yet again, your tell of repeating 'Town' as if its a banner to rally under--despite any Townsman not knowing who the other Townsmen are--and then repeating it ad nauseum that it loses its meaning is of scathing note. This is something you should not do in any game.

Quote

I will not flinch from what I see as the last hope of a Town win.

And here you stand your ground. Tell me, would a Towny consider all prospects and leave questions to her 'enemy', and after leaving the question answered, attack her without any regard to the question she asked?

So too would I not flinch, but I will not use the sanctity of this 'Town' you bother on repeating endlessly. You need notice that your truest proof is contradicting, as you did have a valid case of suspicion against me.

You did not pursue it.

What are you doing.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 4 - Open the cargo bay door
Post by: Imp on November 23, 2013, 03:38:23 pm

Tiruin, I do believe I have nothing left to discuss with you until after this game is over.

Squill will make it clear if he wishes any of these points discussed further.

I think Tiruin is Scum.  I think everything Tiruin is and has been saying this game is Scum ploy/teaching.  It's not possible to convince Scum of anything.  Debating Scum is rather pointless, unless it's to make their Scumminess clearer to others.  Squill's the other.

Squill doesn't trust me (or Tiruin) but he's decided I am Scum and Tiruin is not.  On the surface that's not so different from how I've decided that Tiruin is Scum and Squill is not - but in the depths of certainty it possibly is.

The only way for this game to end with a Town win is for the two Town to either recognize each other and agree, or for the two Town to recognize the Scum and agree.

I have a terrible track record of identifying Scum - I don't trust I can.  But I -have- successfully picked out Town.  So I have placed my Trust in that.

What the heck did Kleril do, back on D1?  He and I -danced-.  We went into this weird mental thing.  I had Kleril 'in my hands' and I felt this keenly.  And Kleril changed.  Kleril came out of that 'claiming to know' that I was Town.  That seemed -insane- to me then.

Then it happened to me.  I sat in Bsnott's hands, and I knew his intentions.  I didn't then realize the connection to what might have happened between Kleril and myself then.  But now it's happened a second time.  I think I'm starting to understand Kleril, at least something of him.  Sorry again, Kleril.

Anyway, Squill.  If you've got questions, ask or repeat them (assuming you want to hear me answer something that Tiruin asked).

Otherwise this game's pretty much done, I think.  Squill does or does not change his vote; Tiruin does or does not change hers.  We go to end of day as a tie, giving a certain Scum win (because I am not changing my vote, I am certain I vote for Scum and there is no other possible way for me to vote which could allow for or create a Town win), or we go to end of day with either a Tiruin lynch or an Imp lynch.

It's Squill's vote that matters.  Tiruin is Scum, at this point in play her vote does not matter.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 4 - Open the cargo bay door
Post by: Tiruin on November 23, 2013, 04:18:54 pm

...This is what I've been trying to tell you. You want me to pull up other games to reinforce an idea? Here it is. I've noted that you've an ostensible sense of where you put your belief. Just like you 'outed' NQT in the Supernatural--note that you listened to him at the time--you seem to be doing the same to me.

Yet problem being that you close all fronts of communication yet continue your ploy with Squill. Any Townie would not do such a thing, such as disregard what the target has to say.

Have you given your basis on why I'm scum? No. You have not.

Quote

Squill doesn't trust me (or Tiruin) but he's decided I am Scum and Tiruin is not.  On the surface that's not so different from how I've decided that Tiruin is Scum and Squill is not - but in the depths of certainty it possibly is.

Squill trusts either of us. Trust meaning that he's open to listen. You're unnecessarily complicating the matter by pushing it to the extreme.

Quote

The only way for this game to end with a Town win is for the two Town to either recognize each other and agree, or for the two Town to recognize the Scum and agree.

*Tiruin nods at Squill, then at Imp.
Good observation, but a basic observation nonetheless. How do you decide whether a person is town or not? You check their posts from dawn till dusk.

Quote

Otherwise this game's pretty much done, I think.  Squill does or does not change his vote; Tiruin does or does not change hers.  We go to end of day as a tie, giving a certain Scum win (because I am not changing my vote, I am certain I vote for Scum and there is no other possible way for me to vote which could allow for or create a Town win), or we go to end of day with either a Tiruin lynch or an Imp lynch.

...I really am unsure whether you're really thinking I'm keeping my vote on Squill, or on whether you really think that this day will end in a tie (hint: it won't.)

But perhaps I'm the blind one and you are correct.

What makes Squill town. What makes me scum. I believe you missed those questions above all others in my post, and that you're ignoring all other questions there?

Quote

It's Squill's vote that matters.  Tiruin is Scum, at this point in play her vote does not matter.

You speak as if totally certain, huh. That's quite a huge leap from your past note. However I will indulge you by making my motive apparent, Imp. Regarding your play, it has been spot on..until the end. I cannot fathom why you're dipping into the realm of insult in order to carve out your name and denounce the other, however I have to note how dangerous it is to completely shut off a line of communication with a person when its a one or the other situation.

Unless you're scum, that is, because by then, it won't matter. You just have to convince the other townie to go lynch alongside you.

Have you yet replied to my query on your 'truest proof of townyness'? I have to prod, everyone learns. You seem to be denying yourself that.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 3
Post by: zombie urist on November 23, 2013, 04:31:33 pm

Day ends Tuesday November 26th 9 PM PST.

Imp - Tiruin, squill
squill -
Tiruin - Imp

Not voting -

0 to extend, 2 needed
0 to shorten, 2 needed

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 4 - Open the cargo bay door
Post by: Tiruin on November 23, 2013, 11:02:27 pm

Quote

I think Tiruin is Scum.  I think everything Tiruin is and has been saying this game is Scum [...]teaching

Also hell no. In general, I try to be the least manipulative I can be if scum, and if town, to be transparent as possible unless the situation needs a bit of shadow, and even then I explain myself.

...

I really suck as an IC, huh. Can't anyone get the damn guts to say it to my face so that at least my traumatically-cynical-and-skeptic self would stop wishing a horrible death on you all and utter distrust of your names? Please?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 4 - Open the cargo bay door
Post by: Imp on November 23, 2013, 11:19:25 pm

Quote from: Tiruin on November 23, 2013, 11:02:27 pm

Quote

I think Tiruin is Scum.  I think everything Tiruin is and has been saying this game is Scum [...]teaching

Also hell no. In general, I try to be the least manipulative I can be if scum, and if town, to be transparent as possible unless the situation needs a bit of shadow, and even then I explain myself.

...

I really suck as an IC, huh. Can't anyone get the damn guts to say it to my face so that at least my traumatically-cynical-and-skeptic self would stop wishing a horrible death on you all and utter distrust of your names? Please?

*looks over*  I don't say you suck as an IC.  I find your [IC] here flawless.  My problem with you here is you as a player - how you have played.  And I do have the guts to say that to your face.  I also have the guts to say to your face that I think you are a perfectly fine IC, and I don't know why Squill has called you a poor one.  *returns to waiting for Squill to return to make Squill's next move, if Squill hasn't already made it*

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 4 - Open the cargo bay door
Post by: Imp on November 23, 2013, 11:27:46 pm

Quote from: Imp on November 23, 2013, 11:19:25 pm

My problem with you here is you as a player - how you have played.

And in case that isn't clear enough, I mean by that - 'Your Scum is showing.'

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 4 - Open the cargo bay door
Post by: Tiruin on November 23, 2013, 11:50:08 pm

Quote from: Imp on November 23, 2013, 11:19:25 pm

Quote from: Tiruin on November 23, 2013, 11:02:27 pm

Quote

I think Tiruin is Scum.  I think everything Tiruin is and has been saying this game is Scum [...]teaching

Also hell no. In general, I try to be the least manipulative I can be if scum, and if town, to be transparent as possible unless the situation needs a bit of shadow, and even then I explain myself.

...

I really suck as an IC, huh. Can't anyone get the damn guts to say it to my face so that at least my traumatically-cynical-and-skeptic self would stop wishing a horrible death on you all and utter distrust of your names? Please?

*looks over*  I don't say you suck as an IC.  I find your [IC] here flawless.  My problem with you here is you as a player - how you have played.  And I do have the guts to say that to your face.  I also have the guts to say to your face that I think you are a perfectly fine IC, and I don't know why Squill has called you a poor one.  *returns to waiting for Squill to return to make Squill's next move, if Squill hasn't already made it*

Ahh..now that's reasonable. Yeah. >_>

...

*Stares at Squill for the three-player chess game move*

Quote from: Imp on November 23, 2013, 11:27:46 pm

Quote from: Imp on November 23, 2013, 11:19:25 pm

My problem with you here is you as a player - how you have played.

And in case that isn't clear enough, I mean by that - 'Your Scum is showing.'

...I have no idea why I'm thinking 'Freudian slip' on this.
Erh, don't think much on the thing about me poking about that thing up there..in the quote..I found out that I'm vulnerable to extreme personalism at times :s

---

Squill:
I...take note that you're also missing stuff directed at you.

Quote from: Tiruin on November 21, 2013, 01:33:42 am

Squill: I await your answers to my queries. I will also indulge in the thinking game.

Say, if I'm voting Imp and Imp is voting me, what would be your response to this situation?

Quote from: Squill on November 23, 2013, 09:52:14 am

Quote from: Tiruin on November 23, 2013, 09:03:06 am

Squill:

Quote

Is that first question rhetorical? In case it isn't, I think that it is much easier to influence the game if people jump on your bandwagon for no good reason.

It is only rhetorical if it concludes, in that matter.
...
So how are people jumping on a bandwagon an influence to the game? Does it not matter their intent or how/why they do so? Why do you use the 'bandwagon' as a term there? You do know that it has a negative meaning when used in Mafia, yes?

People jumping on a bandwagon influences the game by blindly following people, leading to the lynch of people without proper investigation.

*Tiruin steeples her hands and rests her chin on the area between the index and thumb fingers.
What me and Imp agree on, is that it's your move here Squill. No pressure. It's just the fate of the entire game at stake.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 3
Post by: zombie urist on November 25, 2013, 03:10:54 pm

Day ends Tuesday November 26th 9 PM PST.

Imp - Tiruin, squill
squill -
Tiruin - Imp

Not voting -

0 to extend, 2 needed
0 to shorten, 2 needed

Consider this a prod for everyone.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 4 - Open the cargo bay door
Post by: Imp on November 25, 2013, 03:41:27 pm

I respond to the prod.

My current action is waiting for Squill's next words.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 4 - Open the cargo bay door
Post by: Squill on November 25, 2013, 04:36:02 pm

Quote from: Imp on November 25, 2013, 03:41:27 pm

I respond to the prod.

My current action is waiting for Squill's next words.

Sorry, as I said earlier, my schedule is kinda sketchy due to holiday and cake related shenanigans.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 4 - Open the cargo bay door
Post by: Squill on November 25, 2013, 04:36:32 pm

Forgot to say, will post later tonight.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 4 - Open the cargo bay door
Post by: Tiruin on November 25, 2013, 05:32:28 pm

Quote from: Imp on November 25, 2013, 03:41:27 pm

My current action is waiting for Squill's next words.

Same action here.

*checks time*

It's the 26th, ~7am at the time of this post. C'mon Squill~

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 4 - Open the cargo bay door
Post by: Imp on November 25, 2013, 05:37:47 pm

2:35 PM time for me, on Monday the 25th.  About 30 hours to end of day.

No idea if one's needed or not (Squill's post will have such answers, be they questions, a statement he is done, or whatever else he posts), but I'll offer an extend in case such is needed.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 4 - Open the cargo bay door
Post by: Tiruin on November 25, 2013, 06:02:57 pm

I'm ready to echo that (if he doesn't post in ~12 hours from now or ~24 hours from now. I would be active during that time).

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 4 - Open the cargo bay door
Post by: zombie urist on November 25, 2013, 06:10:24 pm

How do you guys want to deal with the holidays?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 4 - Open the cargo bay door
Post by: Imp on November 25, 2013, 06:14:02 pm

I suspect it is possible that this game is going to go until two of the three players are ready to say 'we are done'.  I believe this is going to happen regardless of the holidays (I myself will be mostly unable to check in from late Wednesday night to some time Friday, I'll be traveling/without computer access for much of the time, and with family and without significant computer access for the rest).

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 4 - Open the cargo bay door
Post by: Squill on November 25, 2013, 09:04:10 pm

Quote from: Tiruin on November 23, 2013, 11:50:08 pm

Quote from: Squill on November 23, 2013, 09:52:14 am

Quote from: Tiruin on November 23, 2013, 09:03:06 am

Squill:

Quote

Is that first question rhetorical? In case it isn't, I think that it is much easier to influence the game if people jump on your bandwagon for no good reason.

It is only rhetorical if it concludes, in that matter.
...
So how are people jumping on a bandwagon an influence to the game? Does it not matter their intent or how/why they do so? Why do you use the 'bandwagon' as a term there? You do know that it has a negative meaning when used in Mafia, yes?

People jumping on a bandwagon influences the game by blindly following people, leading to the lynch of people without proper investigation.

Their intent is indeed important, but I believe that intent is separate from influence. I think that a lazy scum and a lazy town will both gladly jump on any mildly convincing bandwagon, leading to the same results. If someone yells "Attack!" loud enough, then someone who doesn't feel like forming their own opinion will obey. I use the term bandwagon because that's what it is; someone says something and other people follow.

Quote from: Imp on November 25, 2013, 06:14:02 pm

I suspect it is possible that this game is going to go until two of the three players are ready to say 'we are done'.  I believe this is going to happen regardless of the holidays (I myself will be mostly unable to check in from late Wednesday night to some time Friday, I'll be traveling/without computer access for much of the time, and with family and without significant computer access for the rest).

Indeed. I'm unlikely to be free too much for the a week or so, and Imp has clearly stated that she is not changing her vote.
I think it's either end here, or extend for another week. I think it's up to you whether to extend or not, Tiruin.

Quote from: Imp on November 23, 2013, 02:08:05 pm

Tiruin's willing to lynch you.  I'd need to dance, maybe.  I could pick on your not very good Towniness.  Then Tiruin and I 'shake hands' and lynch the 'most probable Scum', that being you, and I win.

@Imp: I just noticed looked over this, and I must say that Tiruin being willing to lynch me is not a bad thing. I think that in this game, you can't be unwilling to lynch anyone. Also, teaming up with Tiruin to turn on me would be a very scum move; just forgetting your case on Tiruin to lynch me would be a clear attempt not to lynch a scum, but to get the only lynch you could. That looks to me like saying, "Well, I didn't do this thing, so I can't be scum!"

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 4 - Open the cargo bay door
Post by: Imp on November 25, 2013, 09:32:24 pm

*reads Squill's words, then again, then again.  Then looks at Tiruin*

Alright.  It sounds as if Squill has 'passed the power' in a sense to you, Tiruin.

He asks no questions of me, none of you, except to state that it's your decision to end here or not.

It is possible stop at this point and for anyone not-me and not-Scum to dream of a Scum win - there isn't a tie.

Tiruin, are you comfortable stopping at this point?  Is it time to end this game?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 4 - Open the cargo bay door
Post by: Imp on November 25, 2013, 09:34:14 pm

*heavy sigh*  EBWOP.

"It is possible stop at this point and for anyone not-me and not-Scum to dream of a Scum win - there isn't a tie."

Corrected to:

"It is possible stop at this point and for anyone not-me and not-Scum to dream of a Town win - there isn't a tie."

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 4 - Open the cargo bay door
Post by: Tiruin on November 25, 2013, 10:40:27 pm

...Squill missed my questions >_>

Quote

Their intent is indeed important, but I believe that intent is separate from influence. I think that a lazy scum and a lazy town will both gladly jump on any mildly convincing bandwagon, leading to the same results. If someone yells "Attack!" loud enough, then someone who doesn't feel like forming their own opinion will obey. I use the term bandwagon because that's what it is; someone says something and other people follow.

...This is Fallible.

Intent is not separate from influence given that the choice of the act all falls down to what you decide and not what everyone else is shouting. Laziness does not beget glory, or a town win. Laziness is the aide of the mafia, as a sleeping guard will never see an attack strike, so too does a lazy towny let the enemy sneak past his lines of knowledge and foresight with just a handwave of logic.

...And its really sad. :/

I will echo Jim Groovester in saying 'if you can't put up a fight, then why join if you'll just sit and laze around?'

Quote

Alright.  It sounds as if Squill has 'passed the power' in a sense to you, Tiruin.

He asks no questions of me, none of you, except to state that it's your decision to end here or not.

Well he read all your posts and isn't replying to none of mine, which someone stimulates my 'hurt and ignored' response.. <_<

Quote

"It is possible stop at this point and for anyone not-me and not-Scum to dream of a Town win - there isn't a tie."

AHA SCUMSLIP
...Heck no am I letting this denouement fall into this kind of ending!

Extend

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 4 - Open the cargo bay door
Post by: Imp on November 25, 2013, 10:51:52 pm

Hrm.

Tiruin, I'll be answering your previous posts' questions to me tonight/tomorrow.  There's quite a few questions, it'll be a longish post.  Oh well.

"It is possible stop at this point and for anyone not-me and not-Scum to dream of a Town win - there isn't a tie."[/quote]AHA SCUMSLIP
...Heck no am I letting this denouement fall into this kind of ending!
[/quote]

And is Scumslip the only interpretation you have for that error?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 4 - Open the cargo bay door
Post by: Tiruin on November 26, 2013, 01:22:37 am

..When you said you were done talking to me, you meant that as a threat or as a general path for your mode of discourse with me?

And no, I'm never comfortable with a tie at this point as it gives a scum win. Nothing else (unless scum would choose not to kill), wherein the double error of not following the wincon follows.

..And Squill. General advice: Look over what we're saying--the hypothetical scenario comes true here. Imp seemingly cuts off communication as stated back there, so why do you give me the choice about extending it or not? I extend it because I feel..that you
 are lacking. RL stuff, yeah. But..it puts a sour note in my role as a person to see all this end crashing if not for the sake of a reasonable end to the argument.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 4 - Open the cargo bay door
Post by: Imp on November 26, 2013, 07:04:47 am

Spoiler: Tiruin's answers, part one (click to show/hide)

Quote from: Tiruin on November 26, 2013, 01:22:37 am

..When you said you were done talking to me, you meant that as a threat or as a general path for your mode of discourse with me?

More the second, but not really either of those options.

I thought and still think you're our remaining Scum.

You say Squill reads what I type, but I'm not sure he does.  He used to, maybe.  What he does read, he seems to want to talk about why what I said could mean I am malevolent; I do believe him:

Quote from: Squill on November 23, 2013, 07:55:45 am

As for the alignment of you and Tiruin ... I think she is town, and that you are scum...I would vote for you, Imp, because that I think that you are scum.

So I'm rather stuck.  There's a chance I'm wrong and he's the Scum, but I don't think so.

---

---

I believe Squill's heard enough from me, sick of listening to me, doesn't want to play this game anymore, let himself get pushed into staying.  He's listening to you (you had some influence on him canceling his replacement request) and he's probably honest that he's decided I'm the Scum between you and I.  I don't think he wants to consider or reconsider, and I think he'd prefer the game over to much more involvement with either of us.

But my being done talking to you, it wasn't a threat, and yeah, if Squill'd decided differently, I'd have gladly accepted your lynch as the highest probability way to achieve a Town win I can see.  So if that path had been open, it would have been taken, so 'general path for my mode of discourse with you' yes, that's the closer fit.

---

---

Except I can't have that.  So, sure.  Lets talk.  I've already said I'm here to win, and that I believe I'll learn no matter what happens.  I've stated I would win -fast- if I could (and... dear Tiruin... I believe at least outside of a newbie game, you would too), as certainly as I could, and learning would happen without any special focus on learning needed.

But I believe you too, that you're here to -teach-, that teaching motivates you, and that you're here to 'play'.  That brings images to my mind of a cat playing with a crippled bird, a broken insect, a shattered but still trembling mouse; none of your goals include fast, or a clean kill, oh well.  You're not really playing counter to your wincon either, you're just not taking the shortest path there.  Long as you get there, and have fun on the way, and teach too, I can see you selecting this path, given any choice to take it or make it happen.

---

---

At the moment I see my choices thusly:

I can go directly to my death and the end of the game that brings.

I can interact with you, and perhaps Squill (don't think he wants to interact more) until two of the three of us are ready to be done.

So I'm not especially eager to take either of those paths because I don't see a win for Town down either of them, but I like the game enough (and dream of my wincon enough) to accept the second choice.  But I don't see it changing anything.

I don't see Squill voting for you.  And sure, you can press me down to the wire, I may or may not shift my vote from you to him depending on the way that things go (I could be wrong; you could be Town, from my perspective a lynch of Squill is more likely than a lynch of me to result in a Town win - but I don't think so, really.  I think either of us leads equally to a Town loss).

---

---

The words of any Scum, since those words are spoken to mislead, are garbage.  Thus, if in this game you are Scum, your [Non-IC] words are garbage.  I believe I dance to the music of a Scum's songs in answering you, but I have no reason to not answer now, because I have no reasons anymore for anything here, there's nothing left but your songs and death.

So.  Onto the Dance Macabre, oh lets.

---

---

Quote from: Tiruin on November 23, 2013, 09:03:06 am

You take a thorough route and deign to support your vote?

The vote was supported by reasons given D3.  The only change between D3-then and D4-then is I had more time to try and evaluate my impressions of what your behavior means.  The only difference between either of those thens and now is that I've reconfirmed that 'Squill is done with me' -

Quote from: Tiruin on November 23, 2013, 04:18:54 pm

I have to note how dangerous it is to completely shut off a line of communication with a person when its a one or the other situation.

But that's essentially been the situation since... well.  I'm not sure when.  For certain by early D3.  Squill felt 'something' or thought 'something' enough to vote for me in lylo, though he backed down when you challenged him:

Quote from: Tiruin on November 03, 2013, 04:19:50 am

Squill: It is LYLO. You're seriously voting for Imp under grounds of this (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4735032#msg4735032) accusation?

And he backed down from his vote of bsnott when I challenged about what I believed and described as proof that bsnott was Town:

Quote from: Squill on November 10, 2013, 04:42:52 pm

As for bsnott, I don't think that there really is some sort of argument here.
Unless bsnott is one of the dumbest people in existence, there is no way he is scum.
Unvote. At this point, continuing to vote for him is an insult to his intelligence.

But Squill hasn't really been talking, he's not really answering questions.  Because he's Scum?  Because he want's out of the game?  Heck, a case can be made against -anyone-.  Stare at the shadows long enough and they'll take form and rise up and walk towards you.  Might even still be your imagination.

But I cannot 'discuss' things with Squill.  I haven't been able to for weeks now.  My fault?  Alright, whatever, perhaps it 100% is.  Thing is, unless Squill's Scum, that's deadly for Town.  But Squill's also new, also an introvert, and also wants out of this game, and has wanted out for a long time now.  That mud in the water doesn't help at all.

Quote from: Tiruin on November 23, 2013, 09:03:06 am

If I've to take a tup of your style there: You're bringing it into extremes. Either/Or, me or Tiruin? Help town win by voting the other?

Quote from: Tiruin on November 23, 2013, 09:03:06 am

Why close all lines of communication? Other than give the gesture of being rude, this isn't town-play and rather gives the notion of 'IT'S EITHER YOU OR ME, PUNK.' with the appended insult being optional.

Extremes?  This is LYLO.  Does it get any more extreme?  For two of us (Town), it's either one or the other - for one of us (Scum) either of the others is equally good.

Why close lines of communication:  Because if you're Scum and Squill is Town - Squill doesn't bother to read much and I already know he has a strong and negative reaction to my words.  If I'm to communicate with him, period, it could only be through near silence.  The sheer number of words I need to answer all of these questions I thought might well finish nailing that communcation line between Squill and myself shut - if it were even open still.  If you're the Scum player that I believe you to be, I don't need to convince you of anything, agree with you about anything - and nice and Scummily, further words from me serves to further annoy Squill and drive him even more firmly into his opinion that I'm more Scum than you.  So I -stopped- answering you, and waited.  Squill doesn't care to have me answer your questions either - if he did, in whole or part, he'd have said do so.  He doesn't want me answering any of his either, or you to answer any of his either.  He hasn't got any for us.  He doesn't want our answers.

Does that mean he's Scum?  Ha, I wish.  But No, I don't think so.  I think he's Town, a Town that doesn't want to play, doesn't want to talk, and especially doesn't want to interact with -me- any further.  That would be convenient for Town... if only I wasn't Town and this wasn't Lylo.

It's past the point of 'help' Town though.  This is the final point, the extreme point.  This is where it's one or the other, and putting final decisions into Scum hands means game over.

---

---

Quote from: Tiruin on November 23, 2013, 09:03:06 am

I can understand some kind of vexation against DS, and Darvi for their lesser-than-expected performance (one on busy-ness, two on...unexplained leave), but tagging me as

Quote

Tiruin walked in here without an intention of winning.  She wasn't careful enough in deciding who to vote for.  She wasn't Tiruin enough.

This?

This underhanded slap to my dignity more than my role as a player? MY INTENT IS TO WIN, BUT TO ALSO TEACH. I DO NOT JOIN GAMES JUST TO THROWAWAY SUCH NOTIONS AND WASTE A VALUABLE SLOT AS A PLAYER.
And to think otherwise of me is no less an insult than an attack to my honor.

Quote from: Tiruin on November 23, 2013, 09:03:06 am

Ahh, so if I flip town, I deserved my fate?

Well, you can define it as 'an underhanded slap to your dignity' as you wish.  You include a question, so I'll answer/discuss.  I saw your reaction to the TolyK/Birdy lynch in another game.  I believed I was seeing a true reaction there from you.  You appeared to pay attention and care.  I thought you actually did.  I didn't see that here with Darvi's lynch, and you had a lot more time to actually read and analyze, but you didn't seem to bother to do either.  When I say 'You walked in here without an intention of winning'... I really mean you walked into the game, saw your role, and stopped putting effort into achieving a Town win.  That's not an insult - if you're Scum.  And if you're Town?  Tiruin, if you're Town I flat out don't know what you say to you.  It's all emotional and I'm hurt, I'm offended, and I'm flabbergasted.  And I don't know what to say.

Quote from: Tiruin on November 23, 2013, 09:03:06 am

Quote from: Imp on November 21, 2013, 03:50:57 am

Explain to me your 'mindset' when you joined this game, what your intentions were then.  No really - what did you intend to do in your play, both D2, early D3, mid D3, and late D3.  Explain to me too now your 'mindset' as you play this game, what your intentions are now.

Simple in two words. "Play." "Win."
If you unfortunately expected me, as an IC rather than a player to teach rather than play, then you are wrong.
If you unfortunately expected me, as a player rather than an IC, to play rather than teach, then you are still wrong.
Both go in tandem; both go with the player's character and personality.

I'd love for you to have come into this game and done that - to have walked into this game with every intention of playing hard, playing well, playing to win, and teaching us everything you could think of in the process.  But to my interpretation you didn't - at least not in terms of a Town win.
I DID expect you to teach, to play, but most especially, to work towards your Wincon.  And I think you have, but I don't see you working towards a Town Wincon.  Maybe it's me.  Maybe you have been and I'm just too arrogant or stupid or whatever to be able to see it.  But the problems I called you out on in D3, that I finally decided to see as non-proof of your alignment being Scum - that stuff's not what Town should do to me.  Just like what you say you interpret as my behavior D4 being - non-Town to close off lines of communication.  Well, you spent an awful lot of time D2 failing to understand who was a possible lynch or not, if you'd voted to extend or not, even who was up for lynch or not (in your discussing Superblackcat as a possible person to vote for, explaining why you wouldn't vote for him - which would have tied the vote - he was not a reasonable lynch pick but you 'don't notice' for whatever reason, just like you 'don't notice' that my switch from Rolepgeek was a compromise vote.)

So yeah, I'm hurt, I'm dismayed, I'm shocked, and soon I'm lost.  GG.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 4 - Open the cargo bay door
Post by: Imp on November 26, 2013, 07:06:12 am

Spoiler: Tiruin's answers part two (click to show/hide)

Quote from: Tiruin on November 23, 2013, 09:03:06 am

Why is Squill town?

... Cause you're not?  Because I analyze you both as appearing strongly to not work towards a Town wincon, but I can say 'he's an introverted newbie and doesn't care very much anymore, if he ever did' about Squill, but I can't 'explain away' your anti-Town behavior with any answer I can imagine.

I questioned you about it.  Some of your answers seem and feel false, others aren't answers or I don't understand them.  What am I supposed to do then?  And don't forget - I only get to make half a decision.  If you are the Scum I believe you to be, I can't hang you.  It takes 'us' to hang anyone, and I flat out don't have an us.  I've done tried my last idea to 'discuss' the issue of 'Tiruin is Scum' with Squill.  He didn't like any of my earlier conversations and he didn't like this most recent one either.  Alright.  I'm out of ideas, and that's a failing I guess I lose for.

Quote from: Tiruin on November 23, 2013, 09:03:06 am

What matters is how you communicate, regardless of alignment.

Not always.  With a fair listener, yes, always.  But when the one you speak to is not a fair listener, no dice, and sometimes flat out no way to communicate.

Quote from: Tiruin on November 23, 2013, 09:03:06 am

Meaning: That's a pretty scathing accusation there. Subtly calling me a cheap player who throwsaway the decent notion of scumhunting, even though it was never said--though worded precisely, in your vote and motive.

Yep, you can read clearly, even though you claim unawareness(elsewhere) that you are speaking deeply unclearly.  It's one possible explanation that could actually explain your behavior in this game.  You haven't offered me an explanation that felt true and made sense yet, and I asked you multiple times.

Quote from: Tiruin on November 23, 2013, 09:03:06 am

Thirdly, do you take a focus to what I did in exacts during that time, or do you see me explaining myself here--compared to what I posted, and did then--some sort of summary or defense against anything you have? What I said, is what I said. That is why there are no edits in Mafia. Your word is your word, and any interpretation pertaining to it denotes a rational following.

We have a communication break here.  It seems that you feel you have adequately answered my queries and your explanations are reasonable for a non-Scum to have.

Perhaps, go back and reread my questions to you on D3, and reread your answers?  Or do all of your words make sense to you, your labrynthine twists and vague mentions crystal clear?

I've asked you elsewhere what some of your sentences meant, after a game was finished.  You told me then that you didn't know, but you guessed you meant 'a specific thing you pointed out'.  That doesn't inspire my confidence, even to question you more throughly, but I have tried that.  You just keep twisting.

Should I badger you, chase you and follow until maybe you stop twisting?  That seems... a foolish choice for me.  You're clearly having fun with what you do.

Quote from: Tiruin on November 23, 2013, 09:03:06 am

And you give him a decision--something he always had, as an ultimatum, hmm?

...  It's always his.  Always was.  I spoke to him as I spoke to him because I'd not spoken to him that way before.  Because he had made it clear that none of my other forms of communication were acceptable to him.  I offered him a new style.  He sees ultimatiums from me in perhaps every post I made, to him and others:

Quote from: Squill on November 04, 2013, 09:33:49 pm

But the thing about you is, in my view, your intentions are so difficult to read. I am near constantly switching between your posts as extensively detailed and thorough attempts to scumhunt, and veiled threats. It seems like no one has really challenged you a whole lot, and if you want to many of the less active players would gladly follow your lead, or risk getting lynched themselves. It irritates me that I can see two different possibilities of your posts, but have so much trouble discerning what it is.

Quote from: Squill on November 05, 2013, 11:16:47 am

Quote from: Imp on November 05, 2013, 08:00:41 am

Squill:

Veiled threats, the sort that you see in my writing, do you believe those are exclusively Pro-Town behavior, Anti-Town behavior, or a mixture of both?  If it's a mixture, what's the ratio approximately seem to be?

A factor that affects now, which didn't before (in case you see me as a bully or whatever else bad, be I Town or not) - we have no room for a mislynch.

I think veiled threats might have been a poor choice of words, but I think you get what I mean. I think that you're the most aggressive player in the game, which is both good and bad. Good because it probably puts pressure on scum, but bad because it intimidates people from voting on you, out of fear that you, as an aggressive player, will turn on them. This is not to say that you are definitely or even probably scum, it's just to say that no one has seriously scumhunted against you yet. So I want to ask you: Do you think that there can be a thing as too aggressive in this game? Do you think that it is possible that, by being very aggressive, to deflect scrutiny by means of intimidation?

Quote from: Squill on November 12, 2013, 03:40:44 pm

As for a target too high to hit, I mean you are aggressive and thorough in basically every post you make; people do not want to accuse you, because nobody wants to deal with the ensuing scrutiny. As probably the most frequent poster, with the longest posts, nobody wants to spend their time in the game embroiled in conflict with you. Which, if you're a scum, is a very good thing. Do you understand what I am saying?

So I wrote to him this last time with a tone and posture I believe was absolutely not aggressive.  Deferential, you called it?  More or less:

Quote from: Tiruin on November 23, 2013, 03:17:40 pm

This is a dangerous mode of pseudo-deference in talking to Squill.

He's reading my words, but it seems for one thing only, and that's to throw broken-off pieces of them back at me.  None the less, he's what I have to work with - all the others are already dead.  I tried another method.  It failed too.  I'm out of ideas.

Quote from: Tiruin on November 23, 2013, 09:03:06 am

Quote from: Imp on November 23, 2013, 12:07:06 am

Every choice I've made is a Town choice, no matter if that choice was right or wrong.

And on the underlined part. What kind of reasoning is that?

Honest reasoning.  Asking him to look.  Not break pieces off to throw at me.  Look and think.  I've messed up this game, I've lead a mislynch, I've been wrong about many things.  But I did try to distinguish Town from Scum, even in viewing others errors and weird choices.  I fought mislynches too - I fought to save Luke (though only because I saw two far better targets, and not because I believed Luke Town), and after much interaction I came to believe Cat Town and stopped hunting him.  Not stopped teaching - oh Tiruin, who walks into the game with a freely bestowed vote upon Darvi, but oh, you read my words enough to know to ask me:

Quote from: Tiruin on October 25, 2013, 07:32:21 pm

Imp: Query. Why're you asking definition of terms on SBC? How does that help your eye on him?

Teacher, is my attempt to teach so poor it cannot be recognized as teaching?
... I can barely bring myself to type these words, but none the less I shall.  How can you so selectively read my words, to notice things like the questions I ask Cat, but miss my votes and vote changes, and the reasons given?  I have trouble typing this because I cry, because I feel so betrayed, so tricked, so set up.  Foul, foul Tiruin.  These lies are ugly things.  It hurts to be toyed with to death by a cat.

Quote from: Tiruin on November 23, 2013, 09:03:06 am

What are you doing, Imp? Can you define what makes a Townie, in brevity?

I already had:

Quote from: Imp on November 03, 2013, 05:36:36 am

The newbie Townie cannot help but do right and wrong things, but will be trying to do right things.  Will reach towards trying to do right action and on the level of their understanding will reach towards dropping wrong actions and reach towards right ones.

That's a description for a newbie Townie - but the experienced Townie is much the same, only less inept.  A Townie is working, consistently and the best they can for a Town win.  Or they really shouldn't have signed up for the game - sure, as I come to understand more recently:

Quote from: Imp on November 23, 2013, 12:07:06 am

I'm starting to think a lot of players sign up for these games, the experienced players, and not just those who offer to be ICs in BMs, but they sign up for these games wanting to be Scum, and don't care anymore when they find out they are Town.  Very much a self fulfilling prophecy, 'Town's going to lose so why try hard'.

That's not a punch at -you-.  That's a punch thrown to anyone whose nose gets in the way.  Anyone whom that describes.

Quote from: Tiruin on November 23, 2013, 09:03:06 am

You may stand on an alignment, one way or another, yet it is by your action in itself which keep you to that alignment. I hope you're familiar with that given a history of D&D?

Yeah, it's your actions that I feel show your alignment, yes.  Familiar, and seen.

As to what I was doing, I was trying to talk to Squill and be heard, instead of triggering another auto-slap reflex.

Quote from: Tiruin on November 23, 2013, 09:03:06 am

Why would you resort to such low means, that all sorts of logic frown upon to do that? Such a flippant act is...disgusting. You judge before the hammer is given, and the verdict is layed. You speak behind my back, yet all your vote entails is a shallow stab at me. And not just me, but everyone before me. You carry a vendetta against them?

Nope.  Stripped down translation of my words would be "The players shared a role, they're both Town or both Scum.  Hey, they both seem to be Scum."

Quote from: Tiruin on November 23, 2013, 09:03:06 am

But when you make it into the area of argumentum ad hominem, then I am lost for words. Have I taught wrong? Am I lacking? Does my playstyle not carry even a note of learning in it--if so far that I've done evil, then let your acts be opposite to mine, and learn from it! Why must you address another and denounce me that way, when I am no farther than where Squill stands in listening to you?

You're a fine teacher.  I just wish you walked into the game and took consistant action towards a Town win.  But you very much didn't, your explanations why not sound like lies and I had to repeatedly ask you to get them, you claim to not understand stuff - but I know from elsewhere your courage, intelligence, and something of your cunning - Sure I can learn from you, and I can be a nice and respectful student as well.  But I never said I was here to learn.  I even told you that you stopped being seen by me as a mentor in any game once we both become players in it.  So yeah.  Yucky lies.  And it's hard to talk to Squill.  I was hoping not impossible.  But how to talk to Squill?  I thought I'd try that new way.

And distance - well.  Yes there is a difference.  One of you is Scum.  One of you is very, very far from me, not even playing the same sort of game really.

Quote from: Tiruin on November 23, 2013, 03:17:40 pm

Quote

Tiruin's willing to lynch you.  I'd need to dance, maybe.  I could pick on your not very good Towniness.  Then Tiruin and I 'shake hands' and lynch the 'most probable Scum', that being you, and I win.

Willing? My dear. Is it that I keep my vote on him that I am willing? I question the both of you, with varying levels of trust in between, and to me, you taking the holier-than-thou path of...denouncing my play, being disgusted without drawing any tangible note, and in general spitting at everyone else--only apparent of this time being--dictates one thing.

That you, are scum.

Yes cat, you have claws.  Yes, you strike hard when you please.  Yep, you gots a temper.  Classify me all you want - if you're Scum it's -all a lie-.  You're teaching, but.... I don't know how to explain it satisfactorily if I haven't already.

Quote from: Tiruin on November 23, 2013, 03:17:40 pm

Wherein you believe one game is enough to judge me like so and then discard me as some plaything to insult and then pull the strings to tout the lines of emotional appeals?

What we're playing right now is also one game.  So that made two games to judge you from.  And now I've got a significant portion of a third too for evaluating.  But no, you're not a plaything.  I was -not- saying play with you.  I was saying 'kill her, she is Scum'.

Quote from: Tiruin on November 23, 2013, 03:17:40 pm

(1)Then who is the Tiruin you know? (2)What wincon do you think I'm playing under? (3)How terrible am I doing that you begin to insult me as a person rather than a player?

1  You.
2  Scum.
3  Doesn't apply - was trying to talk to Squill in a way that he might accept more than my previous forms.

Quote from: Tiruin on November 23, 2013, 03:17:40 pm

My play wherein I state my errors and take it like a (wo)man? Wherein I debate with you in full respect and what I get back is a misinterpretation that bogs the line between mudslinging and utter denouncement? Wherein the arguments toe the line of sharp-offendedness?
What play is it that you poke at? My errors to which I admitted full honesty to, or perhaps you're seeing things back there which you aren't stating but rather, generalizing?

Umm.  Scum ploy, to take a possibly less offensive track of explanation.

Quote from: Tiruin on November 23, 2013, 03:17:40 pm

In which you don't even expound on why. If I was ~5% likely to be town, where was your vote to usher in the tide of vindication for all the dead who have died, and all the silence in between?[/quote]

Err, it was on Rolepgeek/Pufferfish.  He seemed even more likely to be Scum than you.  Wasn't that obvious?  *bemused shrug*

Quote from: Tiruin on November 23, 2013, 03:17:40 pm

And like this would be something set in stone? Squill is a player, just like you. Players may distrust players, but there is--or has never been any, as far as my memory goes--situation wherein a player becomes purely blinded that total distrust occurs.

...Well, until you sounded your attack on me given that you will not change your vote.

yeah there is.  Toonyman to Imp, early-to-mid D1 S6.  Chased me with an axe, near enough, until somehow Toaster the Terrifying backed him off with one question.  Others had asked the same question, so clearly Toaster's Terrifying or something.

So too, S6 D3.  Wasn't any way I was going to change my vote from Max, unless I could get support for a lynch on the player I thought was probably the Charismatic Cultist, though I didn't know what name the role had (and I was wrong about who had it)

Quote from: Tiruin on November 23, 2013, 03:17:40 pm

Remember how you outed Bsnott? Now let me bring in that superficial notice to how I extended. Doesn't that make me towny~?

No.  Timing matters.  You -didn't- do it (perhaps couldn't be there) during an extended time period when it actually mattered.  When you -were- there and it did matter, you DIDN'T ASK TO EXTEND.  When I challenged you about it you started to claim that you THOUGHT YOU ALREADY HAD.  Then you changed your story -again- and said that you thought no one else wanted to extend - that one burns me the most, because you ARE AN IC, AND SINCE WHEN DOES OUR IC NOT DO THE RIGHT THING BECAUSE SHE THINKS NO ONE ELSE (the newbies) ARE NOT DOING IT TOO?

Ahem.  *steepled fingers, deep breath*  Do not shout at the Scum, Imp.  Sit and wait calmly until the cat is ready to bite down to kill.

Quote from: Tiruin on November 23, 2013, 03:17:40 pm

Where doth power stem but from the heart and choice of its wielder?
How powerless are you, but to convince the other against the other, if not scum persuading a brother?

Every player is powerless, when they sit alone, when their team, known to them or not, does not recognize them as being on the same side.  Some games have powers that can temporarily change that balance.  This one does not, so this one that applies for.

Quote from: Tiruin on November 23, 2013, 03:17:40 pm

This is no rant--and if it be a rant, then I have little hope in persuing this matter. You play the role of a victim, grieving when grief isn't due, or bereave a fate which hasn't even occurred. I can forgive the context of it being inside a rant--for sometimes games take an emotional toll on the person that they do oft forget that any kind of post is a permanent and tangible sign of how you felt, and even then it would be public, for all to see--but here? Repeatedly? Again?

There's question marks here, but I don't get your question unless you're asking to confirm that I know and understand that my words are part of permanent record.  Umm, yeah.  I will note though that I faced a great deal of abuse as a child, and some of it in the form of bullying.  Rolepgeek, bleep that he was because he was Scum and thus had a world of options; he chose to do to me what he did because he wanted to.  And -he- claims that what I did to him was worse than anything he did to me - oh no. He cut me and he cut me deep.  I -still- bleed.  I'm going to be bleeding for some time.  There's quite a few reasons why I want this game -stopped-.  Mental and emotional health issues are among them.

Quote from: Tiruin on November 23, 2013, 03:17:40 pm

...You have plenty much to learn. And plenty much to drop off your ego. You think I'm blindsided to not consider--sans the personal insults you may or hopefully may not have stated directly at me--the core principle of the time? That I would be stoopidly enraged by these notions to not consider who exactly is scum or not? You attack like a cornered person, only aware of her own survival.

Do you consider that of the other two? Did you state why you consider one or the other?

I've stated my case on you.  You've answered it, sure.  Your answers don't 'fit'.
And no, you misread three things, my emotional reaction to Rolepgeek, which was only worsened as I learned he actually -was- indeed Scum, and then read things like this:

Quote from: Max White on November 22, 2013, 09:45:51 pm

Has there ever not been a nice scum team?
When you aren't feeling all frustrated at having to build a case and make it actually work out, and can instead just view the game from above, it is a lot more relaxing.

Yeah, bleep was a choice, one he didn't need to make but did.  And now bleep is locked into my impression of the game, this game specifically, and my impression of this game's Scum specifically.  Oh, and the other two things - your style of Scum is, of course, deceitful as it must be.  And I was trying to talk to Squill, briefly and in a new way, in case it was manner of speaking, not speaker, that has offended him so.

Quote from: Tiruin on November 23, 2013, 03:17:40 pm

You beg the other person as if your target is bereft of communication. As if I am already dead in your eyes, that you see the only other person worth talking to. You put yourself in the hypothetical proposition that, if scum, would do otherwise given the tellings of recent time, yet fail to notice how this path leads to damnation. That is another appeal to the player on probability, inticing WIFOM yet again! "Why wouldn't I join this attack on you, Squill? If I am scum, then I would." Even if you were scum, I believe that you would consider the arguments based in front of you and not backtrack on your suspicions, no matter how subtle they are, yes?

However I do note yet again, your tell of repeating 'Town' as if its a banner to rally under--despite any Townsman not knowing who the other Townsmen are--and then repeating it ad nauseum that it loses its meaning is of scathing note. This is something you should not do in any game.

No. It's not that I'm Scum.  If I were, my arguments, reasons, everything I said would need to be just that little bit twisted (or simply wrong, perhaps).

But Squill has talked to me about how he cannot tell if I am Scum or not, and how anything I've said and done in game could have been done with Scum motive.  That's.... Rather hard to argue against.  Occam's Razor comes to mind, Luke that wasn't mislynched, Cat that wasn't mislynched, I fought to prevent both of those (needless fights were I Scum).  But Squill did claim to accept my reasoning on bsnott being Town.  So I tried to offer my best to him along similar lines.  He's not having any - any reach towards him from me is getting bits of my posts chopped off and flung back at me - introvert in a type of defensive mode, -leave Squill alone-.

Quote from: Tiruin on November 23, 2013, 03:17:40 pm

Quote

I will not flinch from what I see as the last hope of a Town win.

And here you stand your ground. Tell me, would a Towny consider all prospects and leave questions to her 'enemy', and after leaving the question answered, attack her without any regard to the question she asked?

So too would I not flinch, but I will not use the sanctity of this 'Town' you bother on repeating endlessly. You need notice that your truest proof is contradicting, as you did have a valid case of suspicion against me.

You did not pursue it.

What are you doing.

Umm.  Cause Squill's Squill.  And there's not exactly much I can do with Squill at this point except get things thrown at me.  -More words- from me, be they words towards you or words towards anyone else or words towards him.... no desire to offend him here but he's rather like a dog in attack mode, he -is- going to defend the area from that stranger who got to close to his fenced yard, and he's not going to stop because that's what he does.

'Proper Scumhunting' of you from me cannot possibly convince Squill of anything at this point.  I think my best chance was backing off as much as I could and letting Squill decide for himself, without any further words from me.  Sounds like he has, bummer.  But it's not like I had any better chances.

Quote from: Tiruin on November 23, 2013, 04:18:54 pm

...This is what I've been trying to tell you. You want me to pull up other games to reinforce an idea? Here it is. I've noted that you've an ostensible sense of where you put your belief. Just like you 'outed' NQT in the Supernatural--note that you listened to him at the time--you seem to be doing the same to me.

Yet problem being that you close all fronts of communication yet continue your ploy with Squill. Any Townie would not do such a thing, such as disregard what the target has to say.

Have you given your basis on why I'm scum? No. You have not.

Umm. D3, yeah I did.  And I dunno what to tell you about a Townie in my situation talking to someone who appears to be reacting to them as Squill is to me.  My behavior's not my first choice either.  You got any suggestions that actually take Squill's reactions (as they are, not as they 'should be') into account?

Quote from: Tiruin on November 23, 2013, 04:18:54 pm

Quote

Squill doesn't trust me (or Tiruin) but he's decided I am Scum and Tiruin is not.  On the surface that's not so different from how I've decided that Tiruin is Scum and Squill is not - but in the depths of certainty it possibly is.

Squill trusts either of us. Trust meaning that he's open to listen. You're unnecessarily complicating the matter by pushing it to the extreme.

Umm... no he doesn't, doesn't trust either of us and doesn't really want to listen to either of us, and he doesn't even want to play, he's just agreed that he 'should', so he is going through the motions he feels he must.  Or I'm wrong, or even if I'm right, maybe I am unnecessarily complicating matters.  Hadn't realized, whoops.

Quote from: Tiruin on November 23, 2013, 04:18:54 pm

How do you decide whether a person is town or not? You check their posts from dawn till dusk.

Agreed.  Not everyone is willing.  Maybe most people aren't.

Quote from: Tiruin on November 23, 2013, 04:18:54 pm

...I really am unsure whether you're really thinking I'm keeping my vote on Squill, or on whether you really think that this day will end in a tie (hint: it won't.)

...  Sure it could.  Squill refuses to vote.  I refuse to switch my vote from you.  You... don't vote either then?  You vote for yourself?  Or you place a vote and create a tie?

But you're right.  If it came to -that-, I don't know that I could avoid bending.  That's a game of 'chicken' I think I am glad we're not playing.

Quote from: Tiruin on November 23, 2013, 04:18:54 pm

But perhaps I'm the blind one and you are correct.

What makes Squill town. What makes me scum. I believe you missed those questions above all others in my post, and that you're ignoring all other questions there?

Oh, I could build a pretty decent case against either of you I think.  Squill does look seriously Scummy to me too.  It's just that I know one of you is Town, and I have the 'handy excuse' to consider - Squill's newbie, and it's more believable that he walked in here like he is as Town, then that you, being experienced, walked in here but didn't charge for a Town wincon, in fact stumbled and tripped and fumbled in directions persistently away from that Town wincon on D2 until the clock ran down.

But this is lylo.  And I don't get to build cases against the both of you.  I don't get to accept a mislynch.  Your actions, already described, mark you as Scum, more likely Scum than he.

I've already walked passively to the slaughter once, like a domestic cow believing it was just going to the barn for another night, in the Town loss of S6.  I didn't like that taste and I'd prefer not to repeat it.

Quote from: Tiruin on November 23, 2013, 04:18:54 pm

You speak as if totally certain, huh. That's quite a huge leap from your past note. However I will indulge you by making my motive apparent, Imp. Regarding your play, it has been spot on..until the end. I cannot fathom why you're dipping into the realm of insult in order to carve out your name and denounce the other, however I have to note how dangerous it is to completely shut off a line of communication with a person when its a one or the other situation.

Unless you're scum, that is, because by then, it won't matter. You just have to convince the other townie to go lynch alongside you.

Have you yet replied to my query on your 'truest proof of townyness'? I have to prod, everyone learns. You seem to be denying yourself that.

Yeah, I replied to it on D3.  You're allowed to ask again, it's answered again above.  And yeah, I imagine Scum would be a really comfy role to have right now.*

*glances over the three-way 'board' with a resigned expression, lifting her face, but not her gaze towards Tiruin as she concludes*

I think that's all of your unanswered queries.  Your move, Not-So-Velvet-Paws?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 4 - Open the cargo bay door
Post by: zombie urist on November 26, 2013, 01:15:13 pm

Day extended to Friday November 29th 9PM PST.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 4 - Open the cargo bay door
Post by: Tiruin on November 26, 2013, 05:14:14 pm

...So I've lost most of this post, and somehow, I'm glad I did because..I've read back. A long way back, and can't not see how right Imp is.

Unvote.
Squill.
I now wonder how or why Squill is voting Imp as such, as I am technically the better option-now that I see it. My only reason for voting Squill is basically on how he interacted in D3, including how he defended said interactions. A minor case, seemingly, out of the lake of questions and posts, but something I find the only probable way (I can in no way vote myself despite the revelation and have only one path to follow - persuading Imp) to solve this, as I have no right to say 'ZU, End this game and flip everyone.'

That, and I'm being totally ignored by Squill.

Imp: ...Words can't express how I feel, neither can a Sorry. Without the presence of that post, I can only say these: You prompted me to look far back and check. Check where I stood in a neutral way, and see how right you are. Vincible ignorance aside..you weren't making emotional appeals, were you? what you were saying made sense--and if you are scum, then I see little doubt that the win still belongs to you despite the technical nature of the votes. You earned your win.

I mean, every interaction. D1/2/3. How Puff went down and his predecessor. What kind of logic stood in the case against and for Imp. Her stance. Her passion. Her wording--though it did stand much 'for the good of Town', it..makes sense. I have no way to defend myself against your case Imp, other than say 'player error', and hope for the best. It is, in no way, defendable from any viewpoint. I should have tried harder. I should have listened, other than hold my ground when the basis is shaky itself. It took two slaps on my cheek to orient my head correctly towards the truth of what you were saying. And by no means - given the hours spent in wait for my [expletive] internet to reconfigure itself - do I find the post I have to be OK in public.

Shame on me.

Imp, I will..forward that post in a PM post-game..I can't find it in myself to make it public.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 4 - Open the cargo bay door
Post by: Imp on November 26, 2013, 05:40:59 pm

Ok, Tiruin.

Time to cut my throat, and I go gladly to this death.  Let it end, and let it end now.

I believe you Scum.

I believe the game ends with a Town loss.

I believe there is no chance of a Town win.

But I am done.

Squill.  Shorten.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 4 - Open the cargo bay door
Post by: Tiruin on November 26, 2013, 05:48:06 pm

O_o
...
...?
...?!
Erhh?!
Imp..what prompted the total shift of attitude there?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 4 - Open the cargo bay door
Post by: Imp on November 26, 2013, 05:49:38 pm

Quote from: Imp on November 26, 2013, 05:40:59 pm

I am done.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 4 - Open the cargo bay door
Post by: Imp on November 26, 2013, 05:51:32 pm

Doesn't matter how many words I use or how few.  Squill's Squill.

Doesn't matter if I shorten or not.

Doesn't matter if I die voting Tiruin or Squill.

Absolutely nothing matters anymore.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 4 - Open the cargo bay door
Post by: Imp on November 26, 2013, 05:52:17 pm

And you appear done with teaching, velvet paws.  So we're done here, right?  I believe it's your move.  Or you can wait for Squill's 'move'.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 4 - Open the cargo bay door
Post by: Tiruin on November 26, 2013, 05:52:53 pm

..Then what I typed is true. I should've included this but from that post:

Quote

I did wish for the none of this to go over the holidays.

Shorten.

...Regardless of your alignment, Imp..I hope that someday..just sorry.

PPE:
...I'll just cry now.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 4 - Open the cargo bay door
Post by: Imp on November 26, 2013, 05:57:09 pm

Quote from: Tiruin on November 26, 2013, 05:52:53 pm

...Regardless of your alignment, Imp...

And that one part, one agonizing part, of why I do this.

Because you insist on keeping it 'this'.  You refuse to let me die 'easy' to let me die without hope.


Kill hope, and kill fear.  Kill hope, and you kill the agony that hope brings.

What, Tiruin doesn't know I'm Town?  After all I've said, and after all, she's Scum?  Why, maybe I'm wrong!

The rest of me stares at that part of me, and hurts.

But it wouldn't be the first time I've been wrong.

Perhaps this is a good themesong for the end of the game, regardless of who is Scum.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nPlBBLc6vno

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 4 - Open the cargo bay door
Post by: Imp on November 26, 2013, 06:03:10 pm

Yes, very good themesong.  These parts specifically:

In this farewell
There's no blood
There's no Alibi
Cause I've Drawn Regret
From the truth
Of a Thousand Lies

Put to rest
What you Thought of Me
While I clean this Slate
With the Hands of Uncertainty

And whatever pain may come
Today this ends.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 4 - Open the cargo bay door
Post by: zombie urist on November 26, 2013, 06:03:45 pm

Day end processing.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Town WIN!
Post by: zombie urist on November 26, 2013, 06:24:10 pm

The last three robots quietly conversed as bright lights hummed overhead. All three knew a single mistake, error, slip could block their goal. Eventually, two of them found agreement with each other. "Squill is infected!" they claimed. ZOM-B activates the compactor and pushes Squill in. Squill offers little resistance and accepts his fate gracefully.

Just as with the other robots, Squill's body is quickly destroyed. The two others waited tensely to hear ZOM-B's analysis.

"Infection found!" ZOM-B proclaims. Imp and Tiruin let out a sound of relief as ZOM-B deposits Squill's body into the furnace.

"Regular operation will begin tomorrow!" announces ZOM-B as he unlocks the door to the room. Seven new robots roll in. One by one, ZOM-B activates them and they join Imp and Tiruin in the charging stations.

Tomorrow will be a new day with lots of work to be done. But tonight the robots rest happily, knowing they were successful in eliminating the MAFIA threat.

==============================

Squill has been lynched! He was a mafia rolecop!

==============================

Game over! Town has won!

Scum chat: http://www.quicktopic.com/50/H/QzXPjfMsrUse9
Dead chat I: http://www.quicktopic.com/50/H/BQtkxBMuD5G
Dead chat II: http://www.quicktopic.com/50/H/DpU7aiQXBuT5

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - Day 4 - Open the cargo bay door
Post by: Tiruin on November 26, 2013, 06:25:01 pm

Quote

What, Tiruin doesn't know I'm Town?  After all I've said, and after all, she's Scum?  Why, maybe I'm wrong!

The rest of me stares at that part of me, and hurts.

But it wouldn't be the first time I've been wrong.

Do you mock me by this?
..I guess you would. And I don’t hold it against you that you would.
I only knew—for glad be I when my memory fails—when I looked back. Vote patterns. Reasonings. Thoughts. Connections. Interactions.
While I would like to say something, anything to defend my vote on you, I can’t. I voted you because of how you worded that attack. Looking back, you have due reason to mark me as such..and the fervor in how you did it..pains me, now that I see it fully.
You say I’m a fine teacher. I say otherwise. I teach with the lesson of pain and hurt. I took it in doubt only, and by where I guess truly, because of my ego.
Something I hated ever since.
And now the game is over. I lost this post because of the lock—just like I lost part of ‘that’ post due to internet failure. I wonder if this is a good thing despite my ability to just retype it all.
But when someone says GG…
I just failed my role.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - GAME OVER - TOWN WIN!
Post by: Imp on November 26, 2013, 06:27:37 pm

I believed you mocked me by it.

I believed I saw a certain Town loss.

I'm glad Town won.  I still don't quite believe it.

Kleril, this win's for you, Mr. my-first-mislynch.  Now get in here and either rip my head off or tell me you forgive me.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - GAME OVER - TOWN WIN!
Post by: zombie urist on November 26, 2013, 06:28:06 pm

There were some pretty big posts directed at me about the game which I'll try to get to later today.

Overall I still think this game went pretty smoothly despite a rough start.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - GAME OVER - TOWN WIN!
Post by: Imp on November 26, 2013, 06:28:35 pm

Tiruin, you 'promised' me a PM - I would like to read it.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - GAME OVER - TOWN WIN!
Post by: Tiruin on November 26, 2013, 06:30:24 pm

...I don't think I would, because this already hurts me far more than words can say. But I gave my word. I want to say I'm sorry Imp, but that can't even say how sorry I am right now. I've hurt too many people, and I didn't even know it until it was too late.

Some say I teach ok.

I wonder how they see me.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - GAME OVER - TOWN WIN!
Post by: kleril on November 26, 2013, 06:34:04 pm

Holy shit it's over. 2 months, and 40 pages of drama, and town won?  I'm at a loss for words. This was one hell of a ride, and I'm glad I was able to be a part of it.

Absolutely all is forgiven for the lynch. I can understand why you lynched me, and arguably I deserved it.

All of D4 was absolutely insane to follow along with, and I'm grateful that you all managed to hold out to a proper end at such a great cost to yourselves.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - GAME OVER - TOWN WIN!
Post by: Tiruin on November 26, 2013, 06:35:09 pm

Quote from: kleril on November 26, 2013, 06:34:04 pm

Holy shit it's over. 2 months, and 40 pages of drama, and town won?  I'm at a loss for words. This was one hell of a ride, and I'm glad I was able to be a part of it.

Absolutely all is forgiven for the lynch. I can understand why you lynched me, and arguably I deserved it.

All of D4 was absolutely insane to follow along with, and I'm grateful that you all managed to hold out to a proper end at such a great cost to yourselves.

I don't deserve this win. It is all because of Imp.

..I don't think I deserve anything actually, other than what i've been accused of.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - GAME OVER - TOWN WIN!
Post by: notquitethere on November 26, 2013, 06:38:11 pm

Huh... so the NQT-curse extends to people I'm formally advising. Noted. I wish scum had fakeclaimed cop like I suggested. Not saying they would have won, just that it would have been more interesting.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - GAME OVER - TOWN WIN!
Post by: kleril on November 26, 2013, 06:38:34 pm

Everybody gets an internet hug. Two, even.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - GAME OVER - TOWN WIN!
Post by: TheWetSheep on November 26, 2013, 06:53:17 pm

Quote from: Tiruin on November 26, 2013, 06:30:24 pm

Some say I teach ok.

I wonder how they see me.

Honestly, Tiruin, you're a great player and a great teacher. I'd be really disappointed if you stopped playing and/or teaching.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - GAME OVER - TOWN WIN!
Post by: Imp on November 26, 2013, 06:54:30 pm

Quote from: Tiruin on November 26, 2013, 06:30:24 pm

...I don't think I would, because this already hurts me far more than words can say. But I gave my word. I want to say I'm sorry Imp, but that can't even say how sorry I am right now. I've hurt too many people, and I didn't even know it until it was too late.

Some say I teach ok.

I wonder how they see me.

What's to late?  It's a beginner game, I got to practice a LOT of skills, I got reminded of some stuff that I almost never use irl (thank GOD!).  None of us is dead irl - heck, we even won the game, and it was interesting, no?

I went to the end thinking there was about a 5% chance you were Town.  And annoyed that I couldn't just relax into 'belief I had lost', because of that nagging and annoying trace of hope. All would have been still and quiet in my mind but for that.
However, really.  It's a BM, right?  I 'learned' it's very ok to be wrong (I already knew that, really   ::)) and I got refresher course on a lot of other things.

Everyone, including mebby you, learned some stuff.  That's what a BM is about, right?  (NO!  every Mafia game is about the WIN!  Down Imp!  Sorry guys, I'm like only half trained or something.  Sit Imp!  Good Imp!)

Apparently it all went very well?  Seems Town won at least.  And I forgive everyone.... except RPG.  I actually intend to never interact with that person again, YAY!

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - GAME OVER - TOWN WIN!
Post by: Tiruin on November 26, 2013, 06:56:26 pm

>_> <_< I disappoint people. And now its either way! DX

PPE:
... :'(

Quote

Everyone, including mebby you, learned some stuff.

Well I've learned a lot on what not to do despite vincible ignorance--something I could kick out if I tried..and I tried too late.

Quote

Apparently it all went very well?  Seems Town won at least.  And I forgive everyone.... except RPG.  I actually intend to never interact with that person again, YAY!

NOOOooooOoOoOOooooooo DX

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - GAME OVER - TOWN WIN!
Post by: Imp on November 26, 2013, 06:56:33 pm

Quote from: notquitethere on November 26, 2013, 06:38:11 pm

Huh... so the NQT-curse extends to people I'm formally advising. Noted. I wish scum had fakeclaimed cop like I suggested. Not saying they would have won, just that it would have been more interesting.

More interesting?  Oh dear, I've done gone and bored NQT.  From the beginning of this game I wondered if you were my real opponent or not here.  Oh well.

Sorry to bore you, Champ.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - GAME OVER - TOWN WIN!
Post by: bsnott on November 26, 2013, 07:00:50 pm

We...we won!

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - GAME OVER - TOWN WIN!
Post by: notquitethere on November 26, 2013, 07:01:36 pm

Nah, you didn't bore me, Imp. I just like high-stakes gambits. Pretty funny though how you appeared so certain town would lose when you voted Squill: maybe you really should scumhunt by voting whoever you think looks least scummy  :D

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - GAME OVER - TOWN WIN!
Post by: Tiruin on November 26, 2013, 07:04:43 pm

I will poke you to describe that...how you say, 'gambit'. :v

No really. That last thing with the yellow smiley face. It is foreign to me.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - GAME OVER - TOWN WIN!
Post by: notquitethere on November 26, 2013, 07:07:57 pm

Just read the scumchat, Tiruin.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - GAME OVER - TOWN WIN!
Post by: Imp on November 26, 2013, 07:11:06 pm

Quote from: notquitethere on November 26, 2013, 07:01:36 pm

Nah, you didn't bore me, Imp. I just like high-stakes gambits. Pretty funny though how you appeared so certain town would lose when you voted Squill: maybe you really should scumhunt by voting whoever you think looks least scummy  :D

yeah except... most of my 'no, I really think you're Town's happened to be correct.  Coincidence really.

Mr.Zero just -never- looked scummy to me.  Cat did, then Cat and I resolved that.  Squill I remained deeply unsure about - I was just less unsure about Tiruin.  Sometimes the answer isn't 'no dice' - sometime's the right answer is 'dice, and let the gods sort it out'.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - GAME OVER - TOWN WIN!
Post by: webadict on November 26, 2013, 07:12:41 pm

I once rolled a die to determine who to kill in a game. Meph can confirm.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - GAME OVER - TOWN WIN!
Post by: Imp on November 26, 2013, 07:15:57 pm

Quote from: webadict on November 26, 2013, 07:12:41 pm

I once rolled a die to determine who to kill in a game. Meph can confirm.

Yeah, but were you a player at the time?  :o

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - GAME OVER - TOWN WIN!
Post by: Imp on November 26, 2013, 07:17:22 pm

So, how does one 'know' when they're ready to stop playing BMs as a newbie?  This is my 2nd or maybe 3rd finished game, I dunno if you count them from the end of the game or just your end in the game.

Should I sign up for more BMs as a newbie?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - GAME OVER - TOWN WIN!
Post by: Tiruin on November 26, 2013, 07:23:21 pm

You're. Awesome.
Seriously.

Also really sorry if you missed it. >.>

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - GAME OVER - TOWN WIN!
Post by: webadict on November 26, 2013, 07:23:24 pm

Quote from: Imp on November 26, 2013, 07:15:57 pm

Quote from: webadict on November 26, 2013, 07:12:41 pm

I once rolled a die to determine who to kill in a game. Meph can confirm.

Yeah, but were you a player at the time?  :o

I was a Vigilante. I had targeted Vector with a kill the first Night. She had coincidentally targeted a War Vet with an Advanced Doppleganger ability. She dies. There were 7 people alive. I had told everyone the Night before that Leafsnail was scum and would be killed. We lynched Kashyyk. Changed my mind because I figured his scummitude was obvious. Shot Pandarsenic on a roll of the die. Turned out to be scum. I died as well. Proceed to lose as Leafsnail convinces them to No Lynch.

Paranormal 13.

That's how you snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.

Quote from: Imp on November 26, 2013, 07:17:22 pm

So, how does one 'know' when they're ready to stop playing BMs as a newbie?  This is my 2nd or maybe 3rd finished game, I dunno if you count them from the end of the game or just your end in the game.

Should I sign up for more BMs as a newbie?

Well, the BMs are to determine if you LIKE mafia. They're actually not too great at teaching. If you like playing and aren't inactive, then feel free to play other games. That's the point of BMs is to determine whether you think you'd actually like playing some of the games here and wouldn't end up leaving.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - GAME OVER - TOWN WIN!
Post by: Mephansteras on November 26, 2013, 07:28:25 pm

Quote from: Imp on November 26, 2013, 07:17:22 pm

So, how does one 'know' when they're ready to stop playing BMs as a newbie?  This is my 2nd or maybe 3rd finished game, I dunno if you count them from the end of the game or just your end in the game.

Should I sign up for more BMs as a newbie?

You did just fine in Supernatural 6. I'd say go forth and join non-BM games!

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - GAME OVER - TOWN WIN!
Post by: Persus13 on November 26, 2013, 07:33:17 pm

That's the most emotional game of Mafia I've seen. Also, Tiruin convinced me and Kleril that she was scum when she voted Darvi.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - GAME OVER - TOWN WIN!
Post by: Tiruin on November 26, 2013, 07:35:43 pm

*Tiruin flops.

I knew it! D:

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - GAME OVER - TOWN WIN!
Post by: Persus13 on November 26, 2013, 07:37:55 pm

ALso, who was the cop?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - GAME OVER - TOWN WIN!
Post by: Tiruin on November 26, 2013, 07:39:24 pm

There was no cop.

*realization sound*

Quote from: Persus13 on November 26, 2013, 07:33:17 pm

That's the most emotional game of Mafia I've seen.

And we are all robots in the story.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - GAME OVER - TOWN WIN!
Post by: Imp on November 26, 2013, 07:40:11 pm

Quote from: Tiruin on November 26, 2013, 07:23:21 pm

You're. Awesome.
Seriously.

Also really sorry if you missed it. >.>

Tiruin, I just finished reading my PM.  Thank you for sending it to me.  I can see why you elected to not post it publicly, and why you offered to send it privately.

Thank you.  Being allowed to see into your mind, to see your stance shift, that is a gift of the sort that I value.  I believe you cannot believe me, but that does not change that I speak true.  (I've lied once and once only in this game - my original 'drill sergeant' post to Luke - my 'promise' that I would use everything in my power to see him lynched if he would not play... ahem that lie was sure proven a lie.... I surely did 'gather up the wave' to drown him, then rapidly 'poured oil on the waters' and redirected that flood... poor Kleril!)

None the less. Tiruin and truth, now.

You acted with honor, by my standards, throughout.  I'm not without blame either.  There's a path through this that perhaps you cannot see (I hope you can) - Everything you have shown that you dislike about you is also a part of me.  Many of the things you like about you I also have at least some of - but I have every flaw that you have admitted to having - and I have every flaw that I have seen you show.

How ashamed should I be?  How bad am I?  But I have your every known weakness and I believe I do not have your every strength - I have seen strengths in you that I myself lack.  So I ask you, for honesty, for truth, and for healing - take the answer you feel is correct for me - "How ashamed should Imp be?" and apply that answer equally to yourself, the exact same answer - or one kinder.  Because I assure you, I am no worse than you.  You may be my better, but you are not my lesser.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - GAME OVER - TOWN WIN!
Post by: Imp on November 26, 2013, 07:46:12 pm

Quote from: bsnott on November 26, 2013, 07:00:50 pm

We...we won!

Hey!  You came back!  How about that?   :D

Granted, we couldn't possibly have won without you, you helped save Town twice as I see it (rescue Imp, eventually vote Rolepgeek - a vote needed to get the kill for sure - anything else would have allowed a tie)

So I'm really glad, masked stranger, for your presence and actions - but really, why'd you do so little this game?

Why'd you avoid so many questions?

Did you even ever read the thread?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - GAME OVER - TOWN WIN!
Post by: Tiruin on November 26, 2013, 07:54:56 pm

Quote from: Imp on November 26, 2013, 07:40:11 pm

So I ask you, for honesty, for truth, and for healing - take the answer you feel is correct for me - "How ashamed should Imp be?"//
...//

...//

.../ and apply that answer equally to yourself//, the exact same answer - or one kinder.  Because I assure you, I am no worse than you.  You may be my better, but you are not my lesser.

;_;
I was confused. I didn't know how to answer, and when I read the question (added the full stop for viewability though I forgot how to use it properly..) I..was really wondering why Imp should be ashamed.
Then I read the rest.
...Then I'm tearing up. >_<
Hnnnnnggggg my feelings. You weren't bad! D:

...Thanks Imp.

Quote from: Imp on November 26, 2013, 07:46:12 pm

Quote from: bsnott on November 26, 2013, 07:00:50 pm

We...we won!

Hey!  You came back!  How about that?   :D

I missed you! D:< Why did you leave? We all missed you!
^{..Thanks for coming back..and yeah, we couldn't have won without you.
Also I really really like that avatar because it brings back leagues of nostalgia..ehh.}

Soo..what'cha think about Mafia? Ok for you?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - GAME OVER - TOWN WIN!
Post by: webadict on November 26, 2013, 08:01:14 pm

And they all lived happily ever after.

From Q.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - GAME OVER - TOWN WIN!
Post by: Imp on November 26, 2013, 08:02:55 pm

Quote from: Tiruin on November 26, 2013, 07:54:56 pm

Hnnnnnggggg my feelings. You weren't bad! D:

Then you're not bad either.  I'm a mirror Tiruin.  At least partially and sometimes.  Some of what you think you see when you 'look' at me is yourself.  So go easy on yourself, like you'd go easy on me.  We're quite possibly more alike than you think.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - GAME OVER - TOWN WIN!
Post by: Persus13 on November 26, 2013, 08:23:02 pm

Tiruin voting Puff was one factor that helped convince me that Tiruin was town and Squill scum.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - GAME OVER - TOWN WIN!
Post by: Imp on November 26, 2013, 08:26:29 pm

Consider Tiruin voting -Caz- though... she worked for the lynch of a Scumbuddy.  I mean.... when I -really- examined her case and fought to understand it, I didn't think it was a good case.  But I don't consider voting for someone who is Scum to mean Town anymore (I did when Tiruin and Toaster!  Toaster!  Even LESS of a CASE and I accepted it!  OMG I gotta go beat myself up)  (but I did consider it to be a pretty sure Town Tell in S6, what Toaster and Tiruin did.  That's fixed at least.

My next game, you're all Scum, period.  ::) ??? :P

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - GAME OVER - TOWN WIN!
Post by: webadict on November 26, 2013, 08:28:03 pm

Quote from: Imp on November 26, 2013, 08:26:29 pm

My next game, you're all Scum, period.  ::) ??? :P

I'm never scum. Anyone who tells you otherwise is lying.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - GAME OVER - TOWN WIN!
Post by: Tiruin on November 26, 2013, 08:34:45 pm

Quote from: Imp on November 26, 2013, 08:26:29 pm

Consider Tiruin voting -Caz- though... she worked for the lynch of a Scumbuddy.  I mean.... when I -really- examined her case and fought to understand it, I didn't think it was a good case.  But I don't consider voting for someone who is Scum to mean Town anymore (I did when Tiruin and Toaster!  Toaster!  Even LESS of a CASE and I accepted it!  OMG I gotta go beat myself up)  (but I did consider it to be a pretty sure Town Tell in S6, what Toaster and Tiruin did.  That's fixed at least.

My next game, you're all Scum, period.  ::) ??? :P

>_>
<_<
I did say that I'd do what I did because it was a neutral thing. Though I'm unsure if he was bussing..he never said so. Silly Caz. :P
..Also don't beat yourself up! D: I do that to myself enough!
...I am not bringing Rule 26 here. Where everyone is scum, even if they're not scum :I

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - GAME OVER - TOWN WIN!
Post by: kleril on November 26, 2013, 08:44:17 pm

Oh, and Imp, I'd like to discuss the 'dance', as you have come to call it. Coming from a live mafia background, it was a strange leap coming to forum mafia. A lot of the basics remained unchanged, but the 'dance' plays a different role. In the games I play face to face, the dance is the game. Everything else is just framework to decide who is thrown in the spotlight. Here, however, it doesn't have as much of  a place to be used, most likely because the subtleties of the interaction are lost - being on the spot and having to fake emotions is tough. Here, however, lying through your teeth is easy, as long as you can do it consistently.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - GAME OVER - TOWN WIN!
Post by: Imp on November 26, 2013, 08:49:14 pm

Yeah, I think you're right, Kleril.  And IRL, though I've never danced or not in Mafia, I've danced with all sorts of people, from sexual predators, to telemarketers, to honest and well meaning folk who simply wanted or needed something of me.

What you're saying though - what you said then.  How much of your statements of faith then and your belief in my alignment - how much did you mean what you said then?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - GAME OVER - TOWN WIN!
Post by: Squill on November 26, 2013, 09:36:10 pm

Well. That was anticlimactic.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - GAME OVER - TOWN WIN!
Post by: Rolepgeek on November 26, 2013, 09:47:02 pm

Note to self: Even if you think you can trick the person who is talking the most into mislynching the wrong people because they're focusing on the wrong people, nightkill them anyway.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - GAME OVER - TOWN WIN!
Post by: Imp on November 26, 2013, 10:59:47 pm

mmm.  Well now.  A final 'themesong' to this Mafia game... this one popped into my head as I thought back across the entirety of the game.  GG all.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2SF6vFPf2xg

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - GAME OVER - TOWN WIN!
Post by: kleril on November 27, 2013, 12:55:27 am

Quote from: Imp on November 26, 2013, 08:49:14 pm

What you're saying though - what you said then.  How much of your statements of faith then and your belief in my alignment - how much did you mean what you said then?

As far as I can remember, completely. Lying in that situation would've proved worse than the alternative. I went in with the assumption (faith) you were town, we danced, and then I knew it with certainty.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - GAME OVER - TOWN WIN!
Post by: Imp on November 27, 2013, 02:28:07 am

Quote from: kleril on November 27, 2013, 12:55:27 am

Quote from: Imp on November 26, 2013, 08:49:14 pm

What you're saying though - what you said then.  How much of your statements of faith then and your belief in my alignment - how much did you mean what you said then?

As far as I can remember, completely. Lying in that situation would've proved worse than the alternative. I went in with the assumption (faith) you were town, we danced, and then I knew it with certainty.

Well, even before I understood you better, I would have delayed lynching a person acting and reacting like you in the future.  I learned a ton, maybe, about sorts of people/playstyles to lynch more slowly/quickly.  Now that I've learned more though, and kinda experienced something perhaps akin to what you did, I dunno what I'd do.  Give you more time to convince me, for sure though.

This style of the dance is utterly outside of my rl experiences.  It's actually outside of my online experiences too, until recently.  Huzzah for new experiences that can be survived!

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - GAME OVER - TOWN WIN!
Post by: Tiruin on November 27, 2013, 05:04:47 am

Quote from: Rolepgeek on November 26, 2013, 09:47:02 pm

Note to self: Even if you think you can trick the person who is talking the most into mislynching the wrong people because they're focusing on the wrong people, nightkill them anyway.

My note still stands. You guys shouldn't have done that vote on a technicality. :P

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - GAME OVER - TOWN WIN!
Post by: Shakerag on November 27, 2013, 10:17:42 am

Quote from: Tiruin on November 26, 2013, 06:56:26 pm

>_> <_< I disappoint people. And now its either way! DX

And if you give up, I will be disappointed.  Your move  >_>

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - GAME OVER - TOWN WIN!
Post by: Imp on November 27, 2013, 02:33:44 pm

Quote from: Shakerag on November 27, 2013, 10:17:42 am

Quote from: Tiruin on November 26, 2013, 06:56:26 pm

>_> <_< I disappoint people. And now its either way! DX

And if you give up, I will be disappointed.  Your move  >_>

*grins hugely*

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - GAME OVER - TOWN WIN!
Post by: Caz on November 27, 2013, 03:05:16 pm

Wow. Mafia is serious business. Can't wait for Paranormal 23 now.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - GAME OVER - TOWN WIN!
Post by: Gentlefish on December 02, 2013, 12:15:16 am

WOAH TOWN WON

Ahahah, how'd I do folks? I got like, the friggin' hardest role to follow up on.

GG Imp, Tiruin, Squill, BSnott. Wish I could GG more but that's who I played with.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - GAME OVER - TOWN WIN!
Post by: Tiruin on December 02, 2013, 12:28:24 am

Quote from: Pufferfish on December 02, 2013, 12:15:16 am

Ahahah, how'd I do folks? I got like, the friggin' hardest role to follow up on.

I really like how you diplomacy'd us all. I do not like the outright lies. Make it more subtle next time if you plan to lie. :P

You were following up on Imp, too, btw. So I understand the hardship. ^ ^
^{Imp is amaaaazing!}
Ahem. Anyway, refrain from voting on a technicality...though I do like how you pulled the short-stop of focusing on most recent events in how you tried to convince others before. Try to develop on it more.  ;D

...

Also the new BM needs a bit of notice.. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=133728.0)

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - GAME OVER - TOWN WIN!
Post by: Imp on December 02, 2013, 12:58:17 am

Quote from: Pufferfish on December 02, 2013, 12:15:16 am

WOAH TOWN WON

Ahahah, how'd I do folks? I got like, the friggin' hardest role to follow up on.

GG Imp, Tiruin, Squill, BSnott. Wish I could GG more but that's who I played with.

I think you did very well.  You picked a strategy and followed through on it - which is good (the follow through part) but possibly also bad in the sense that the strategy you picked was very hard to support (you wanted to take someone else's argument, essentially use it unchanged, and add as little as possible to it - in general in Mafia that strategy seems to fail - that is in essence the very purest form of what a 'bandwagon' is, and it often considered to be something Scum do).

However you had a very hard position to play from, in my opinion, and you did play, you did learn (I believe) and I think you did enjoy yourself too.

Glad you entered the game!  Hope you play more!  Any chance you'll sign up for the BM44 in signups now (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=133728.0)?  I'd enjoy a rematch, this time with both of us starting from square one!

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - GAME OVER - TOWN WIN!
Post by: Tiruin on December 02, 2013, 01:05:28 am

Quote from: Imp on December 02, 2013, 12:58:17 am

I'd enjoy a rematch, this time with both of us starting from square one!

I can't say how happy I am to see this note, to you or her, Puff. :))

But really. You did very well, and given a good re-read, you could've made quite a nice slip there. Take note what a general observer would do: Analyze and check. All you did was well and fine, and..at the time of my vote, I really didn't suspect you much (other than..ehh, what I said before >_>)

But your position was, as said, hard to scramble from, and I'm real glad you went down fighting :D

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - GAME OVER - TOWN WIN!
Post by: Gentlefish on December 02, 2013, 01:22:22 am

Of course I'm in, I want a nice fresh game to sink my scummy teeth in and see if they come out clean!

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - GAME OVER - TOWN WIN!
Post by: zombie urist on December 02, 2013, 03:04:50 am

Some things mentioned in game earlier I want to address:

Allowing griffinpup to play IC in hindsight was a bad idea. IC's usually fill up last and I really wanted to get the game going so I hoped griffinpup would be good enough but I was wrong. I probably should have replaced him sooner but he responded and I really hoped he would play. Also I was worried that forcing him to replace would stop any activity from occurring and we would end up waiting for a replacement that might never come.

I have no idea why Darvi never responded seeing that he was active elsewhere. I was also worried that force replacing him would lead to a vacant spot no one would fill up. He did do pretty well when he was active though.

I think letting Tiruin replace in was a good idea. She was active as I expected and I don't think having the deadchat gave her too many advantages. Also thanks for taking over votecount that one week I was super busy. It was better to have her replace in than to leave that spot empty. This gave town a slight advantage but I don't think it significantly impacted the outcome of the game.

Day and night lengths I had to extend a little early on because I had midterms and I think I'm justified in doing so. All other mods change day/night lengths based on their schedule so everyone better get used to it.

The biggest reason I didn't want to cancel the game outright because I thought most of the players wanted to see it through, which they did. I had no personal problem with cancelling the game.

I think I got all the major points.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - GAME OVER - TOWN WIN!
Post by: Imp on December 02, 2013, 03:37:14 am

Thank you for your answers.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - GAME OVER - TOWN WIN!
Post by: Tiruin on December 02, 2013, 06:10:42 am

Quote from: zombie urist on December 02, 2013, 03:04:50 am

[...] I don't think having the deadchat gave her too many advantages.

There was a deadchat?
I totally forgot about it when I began playing. :S

Also thanks for your answers. I attribute RL busy-ness to both Griffin and Darvi, because every outcome is better that way.