Bay 12 Games Forum

Finally... => Life Advice => Topic started by: Tyg13 on October 12, 2013, 11:10:16 am

Title: Anti-Intellectualism
Post by: Tyg13 on October 12, 2013, 11:10:16 am
Caveat: This post shall be probably rather ranty, hard to follow, and with little to no defining point besides anger. That being said, I felt like venting to a forum of my peers so here goes it.

Has anyone else noticed the rampant anti-intellectualism that has been growing in the world as of late? At least within my own community and those I have visited here in America, it seems like people are trying not to think. Or as if knowing things is too much of a burden for them. In my own personal experience, this has become increasingly frustrating, as I pride myself for my knowledge and want to help people out, but they don't wish to be helped.

I am known amongst my peers as a dispensary of unwanted, useless knowledge. Initially, the complaints may have been warranted. Often, when someone would talk about some kind of subject, for example plumbing, I would make a comment as to how the Romans had their pipes, and have been met with much derision for my comments. As such I have learned to dial back the unprompted fact reflex quite significantly. I can understand how some people may not want to be forced to sit through explanations of subjects they did not ask for.

However, what I do not understand is when people become offended, insulted, and angry when I try to answer the questions they ask me. For instance, my mother recently asked me the other day why the wind blows. So I went about trying to explain how the sun heats different parts of the Earth and the difference in pressure creates the air flow. A rather grand oversimplification of the complex systems that drive the winds but I thought it was a simple, sufficient explanation to a question that was asked of me. I say tried to explain, because about two sentences in I was met with a rather blunt "I don't care." Now, I could chalk this up to my mother's personality, but I could go on and on with the list of examples where people just refuse to even listen to the explanation to the question they just asked!

Is there something so wrong about asking someone to think that warrants taking offense? Am I the only one seeing this, or is this just the way it has always been and I was too young and naive to see it? How are people not interested about things in the world? Don't they want to know how it works at all? We're surrounded by crazy impossible things, methods of transportation that work off the combustion of vaporized molecules of dead animals, compressed under layers and layers of rock over millions of years. Show any of our modern implements to a caveman and he would instantly regard them as magic. What's even more crazy and exciting is that we can understand the magic, and replicate it for ourselves. And people don't want to know how to do these things?! Ask any one of them if they wanted a magic wand to wave to levitate objects in front of their eyes and they'd nod vigorously in an instant. But try and explain to them how they could use pulleys to accomplish the same thing, only applicable to any number of problems and all of a sudden you've become boring and insulting. As if the mere notion of having to figure something out was too much for their brain to accomplish.

We've reduced our usage of the single biggest advantage we have over other animals to a minimum. Relegated to the task of keeping track of our favorite shows and movies, making sure we don't miss a single episode of Honey Boo Boo. I know I'm going to come off as just another pedant shouting about the decline of society and how it will be our downfall, but not really. I realize that there will always be enough people around who are enthusiastic about learning about the world to keep us moving forward. I just can't understand the mindset of people who would rather not bother to understand things.

I don't know how to end this, so I'll just ask my fellow Bay12ers on their experiences with anti-intellectualism. Maybe someone else can frame my ramblings more concisely and accurately.

Or maybe I'm wrong, who knows? Maybe there really is no problem, and it's all in my head. I'd love to hear from some level-headed people to compare experiences.
Title: Re: Anti-Intellectualism
Post by: Urist McScoopbeard on October 12, 2013, 11:19:08 am
people have always been like this, its not just now.

Part of life is dealing with people you may or may not deem as complete and utter idiots who want nothing more than to live blissfully under a rock.
Title: Re: Anti-Intellectualism
Post by: freeformschooler on October 12, 2013, 11:26:02 am
Well, considering the whole post was you-centric and all about how people react to you saying things, it could be the way you say stuff rather than what you're saying. For example: in college, I know an older gentleman who will spout random, useless facts about stuff (sometimes on-topic, sometimes not). I do the same thing, but he's disliked for it, and I'm not. Why? Because he does in a way stereotypical of people with ASDs (http://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/topics/autism-spectrum-disorders-pervasive-developmental-disorders/index.shtml). He didn't know when to stop, he didn't respect social or personal boundaries, and he couldn't tell when people just weren't interested. Unfortunately, he was also unaware of all this, and likely wouldn't know how to fix it even if he was, so instead he complained occasionally that people just weren't smart enough to appreciate the things he said.

When I do the same thing, it's often funny or at least interesting to people around me. Before getting all self-sure about your intellectual superiority, maybe take a moment and make sure it's not a social ineptitude problem because what you're describing often is.
Title: Re: Anti-Intellectualism
Post by: Cthulhu on October 12, 2013, 11:40:37 am
Yeah, I was expecting this to be more about the general culture in America of distrusting "experts" and valuing folksy wisdom, stuff like how King of the Hill is always putting weedy liberals from New York in their place (though that's generally done with a decent degree of satire going both ways).  This idea of eggheads on their ivory towers vs Joe the Plumber, and what do they know anyway we needs oil.

If someone asks a rhetorical question and you start sciencing at them, that's probably gonna annoy them, and I'm not sure that's anti-intellectual.
Title: Re: Anti-Intellectualism
Post by: Tyg13 on October 12, 2013, 11:49:16 am
Yeah, sorry. I'm terrible at conveying what I want to get across. This was more of a vent-y thing anyways. I've often considered it's just me and the way I approach things. At any rate, sorry to kind of fluctuate between ranting about myself and my intent which was anti-intellectualism in general. I just felt like being angry and getting validation from my peers, which is not really what this board is about, really. I'll have to reexamine my behaviors and see where potential misunderstandings in intent may lie. Or where I'm just being completely irrelevant to other's discussions and interjecting my own random musings that have nothing to do with what they're conversing about. I try not to come off as being all "superior" because I really don't want to assert some kind of dominance over others, not consciously. I just really like being able to share the awe I feel about understanding the world around us. This does not usually work.
Title: Re: Anti-Intellectualism
Post by: freeformschooler on October 12, 2013, 12:01:51 pm
I've found the highest concentration of people who are interested in those kinds of things are in college and big cities. If it's something you really want to do outside the internet, maybe go to one of these places if the haven't?
Title: Re: Anti-Intellectualism
Post by: Darkmere on October 12, 2013, 02:04:07 pm
John Stuart Mill, 1861:

Quote
It is better to be a human being dissatisfied than a pig satisfied; better to be Socrates dissatisfied than a fool satisfied. And if the fool, or the pig, is of a different opinion, it is because they only know their own side of the question. The other party to the comparison knows both sides.

This isn't new, and you aren't the only one.

The danger lies in taking the above attitude seriously. Some people just don't give a damn and are happy like that (magnets! how to they work!?), so learn how to talk (or not talk) about things to those kinds of people. Related: throwing out random factoids like that will make you seem like a know-it-all if you're not careful about the context. From their perspective it looks like you're trying to insert yourself tangentially into a conversation. If the conversation wasn't already about Roman sewers and you spontaneously bring it up, it feels like you're trying to derail the topic.

The solution that worked for me was to keep my mouth shut around people who don't care, and keep in contact with my intellectual friends (all of whom I met in college, FYI) for that sort of discourse.
Title: Re: Anti-Intellectualism
Post by: Vector on October 12, 2013, 03:03:10 pm
Yeah, exactly.  If you're going to be an intellectual, you need to learn a couple things:

a. Keep your conversations on-point and your explanations well-tuned to the audience
b. Don't bash mass culture.  It just makes you look like a tool

It's tempting for people with an analytical bent to elevate themselves over others, since the masses keep trying to push them down.  On the other hand--it's precisely this practice of self-elevation and judgmental opinion that legitimizes the hatred of people who know a little more about the facts.

Sharing your information is an act of power, which other people need the ability to reject--and which you need to learn to temper by allowing others to show their unique value and worth, and intentionally building them up.  Learn these things and your life will not only be easier--you'll probably discover that those around you aren't anywhere near as "anti-intellectual" as you seem to think.
Title: Re: Anti-Intellectualism
Post by: Eagleon on October 12, 2013, 07:59:00 pm
Realize that just because someone is not an intellectual or doesn't value intellectualism (or Roman sewer systems), doesn't make them anti-intellectual. To be anti-intellectual would be to go out of your way to attack people that like doing what you do. It could instead mean they see value in something that you might not actually understand yet, or are even capable of understanding, about the world or themselves.

Coming to peace with the world, enjoying what you have, and going after what you want from life doesn't require knowing everything about it - just enough ambition to pursue those things. If your goal and passion is to know everything, more power to you, I definitely share your awe and joy for learning. But what you see as lack of curiosity may just be people loving their life and chosen purpose, and resenting people like you as another missionary telling them that they're fools. Deciding that 'our biggest advantage that we have over other animals' is our primary purpose to fulfill is just as arbitrary and personal an opinion as deciding that it's 'grapefruit'. I've often found that the least curious people make the best friends.
Title: Re: Anti-Intellectualism
Post by: Jelle on October 17, 2013, 10:00:51 am
Mhm there does seem to be some sort of inverse relation between intellect and the striving for knowledge, to being cool and striving for social standing, doesn't there? Oftentimes I wonder wether the stereotype coolkid (extended to pretty much any age group) acts stupid because it's cool, or if the two are mutually inclusive. Wichever the case I can't help but cringe when I hear some go as far as boasting their substandard mental capabilities. Going from taking pride in ignorance to looking down on conscious thinking.
So yes what is it then, a shift of importance from intellectual things to thinking in terms of social standing, or intellectualism being outright socially unattractive, to the point of many seeing intellect and rational thought as insulting and threatening? A bit of both maybe?


That said, I do think knowing facts and trivia isn't neceseraily intellectual. Sure when it's relevant not knowing is ignorance, but when largely irrelevant, it's just that, trivia.

b. Don't bash mass culture.  It just makes you look like a tool
Have to disagree here, in my opinion if there's a good rational reason then don't go with the flow, that's herd behavior. Hell if the matter in question is truly important, to yourself and the person/group in question, go right against the flow and make a difference. Unless you value your social standing more that is, or if you absolutely need said standing to function and survive. Humans are social creatures after all, sometimes you do need to compromise to survive.
I should also note that my advice is,socially speaking, the worst and is probably best ignored.  :-X


Edit: I should double check what google translate spouts out sometimes. :(
Title: Re: Anti-Intellectualism
Post by: Vector on October 17, 2013, 10:05:04 am
There's also circles in which people try to grow their intellectualism-peens and spout poorly-considered, over-processed Nietzsche to their peers in order to improve their social standings.
Title: Re: Anti-Intellectualism
Post by: Jelle on October 17, 2013, 10:13:21 am
There's also circles in which people try to grow their intellectualism-peens and spout poorly-considered, over-processed Nietzsche to their peers in order to improve their social standings.
Yes, annoying that. Pretentious intellectualism is the worst kind of boot licking.
Title: Re: Anti-Intellectualism
Post by: Gervassen on October 17, 2013, 10:58:32 am
I occasionally like to conceive of myself as a decently well-informed individual. Over a decade ago now, I studied Latin for several years and even read Vitruvius in the original language. He's the best primary source for Roman building techniques. I can affirm that someone lecturing me about Roman sewers would put me to sleep. If that's what tickles your fancy, there's nothing for it but to get a proper PhD and torment with your soporific droning all the poor undergrads who just want to be about their beer and tawdry assignations.
Title: Re: Anti-Intellectualism
Post by: Jifodus on October 17, 2013, 03:31:49 pm
For instance, my mother recently asked me the other day why the wind blows. So I went about trying to explain how the sun heats different parts of the Earth and the difference in pressure creates the air flow.
The bolded part is probably all your mother cared about in response to her question. After mentioning that wind is caused by differences in air pressure, if she had further interest then she may ask what causes the differences in air pressure. Not everyone is capable of consuming or processing an information dump in a single sitting.

If anything, I'd probably argue that your rant on anti-intellectualism is itself anti-intellectualism. It's not really thinking about the problem, it's more 'people aren't listening to me, ergo people must be stupid and anti-intellectual' (and your caveat loosely implies that you already know it to be true) and simply stopping there, it's not being intellectual and exploring the reasons for why that might be the case.

Disclaimer: I had to look up the definition of intellectualism to write this post. ;)
Title: Re: Anti-Intellectualism
Post by: Vector on October 17, 2013, 07:49:09 pm
Have to disagree here, in my opinion if there's a good rational reason then don't go with the flow, that's herd behavior. Hell if the matter in question is truly important, to yourself and the person/group in question, go right against the flow and make a difference. Unless you value your social standing more that is, or if you absolutely need said standing to function and survive. Humans are social creatures after all, sometimes you do need to compromise to survive.

Culture bashers don't usually talk to the people they're actually bashing, though.  It's just a symbol of superiority.  "Hey, you know, you and me, how we all hate Keeping up with the Kardashians. . ."

Say to a 13-year-old girl's face "Twilight sucks ass but I respect you as a person," or to a 3-year-old "Teletubbies suck but I think you'll grow up okay," and I'll say you're still completely missing the point, but at least you've demonstrated that you have convictions you believe in that are totally detached from bashing on "the sort of person who likes THAT sort of thing."  But, truth is, I've pretty much never seen these behaviors anywhere except as ways to identify yourself as part of a group--a group that is an improvement.
Title: Re: Anti-Intellectualism
Post by: Tyg13 on October 17, 2013, 10:12:52 pm
I did not make this thread with a clear head, and it shows in the original post. I kinda wish I could just make it go away. It's embarrassing and upon rereading comes off as a bit pretentious.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think everyone is stupid, or even that the large majority of people are stupid. I just feel like there's a lack of wonder in the world nowadays. People take the world for granted, without even stopping to wonder how things works or why. When you ask someone to describe anything beyond the scope of their everyday life, like how a light bulb works or why the seasons change, they don't know. And that's not the part that I take issue with. I'm not mad at that person for not knowing something. What confuses me is the fact that they don't care at all.

I get that's not necessarily a bad thing, and people typically have more to do with their life than figure things out. A large amount of very intelligent, great, successful people probably don't know the answers to those questions, and probably don't care either. Me, I can't understand that mindset. I can't think of a world where I see something I don't understand and don't wonder how it works, or try and figure it out somehow. I try to live a life constantly wondering about one thing or another, trying to figure things out. The world fascinates me, I can't think of a single subject that doesn't interest me on some level.

God, I probably come off as some kind of elitist "at least I still wonder" asshole who's trying to make himself sound superior to everyone else. I feel like that's a problem I have. I don't want to come off as elitist or superior, and I don't feel like one of those people, but I get this feeling like I really am. Before I stopped talking to people about non-superficial matters, I would consistently get classified as an intellectual snob. It hurts to come to that realization. I just really wish I could talk to people about these sorts of things and actually get a response other than "I don't care." I love being fascinated by everything. Because then when I finally understand it, there's this feeling of pleasure unparalleled by all other experience. Being able to look at a mathematical proof of something like Euler's identity and understand it gives me this feeling of bliss that I wish I could share, but no one I know honestly cares.
Title: Re: Anti-Intellectualism
Post by: Darkmere on October 17, 2013, 10:34:51 pm
So seek out other people? *shrug* There's almost 7 billion people on this rock; someone somewhere probably agrees with you on some things. Go to college, check with MENSA, join a book club? You may have to do a bit of work, but pick an interest and look for others also interested. You'd be pretty surprised...

Put another way, you can resent people for being unlike you, or find people who ARE like you. The latter is more productive.
Title: Re: Anti-Intellectualism
Post by: Vector on October 17, 2013, 11:07:45 pm
There's an entire community of people who will tell you, not only that they also love Euler, but that you're stupid for failing to wonder about any of the billions of other amazing mathematical things you haven't even noticed.

If you like math, then go be a mathematician.
Title: Re: Anti-Intellectualism
Post by: Gervassen on October 18, 2013, 12:46:44 am
The world fascinates me, I can't think of a single subject that doesn't interest me on some level.

Well, I can. Obviously, the subject of average people doesn't interest you much.  People and their social dynamics can be fascinating, but you choose to disregard this fruitful garden of intellectual growth.  ;)
Title: Re: Anti-Intellectualism
Post by: freeformschooler on October 18, 2013, 10:08:56 am
The world fascinates me, I can't think of a single subject that doesn't interest me on some level.

Well, I can. Obviously, the subject of average people doesn't interest you much.  People and their social dynamics can be fascinating, but you choose to disregard this fruitful garden of intellectual growth.  ;)

Oh no you di-int.
Title: Re: Anti-Intellectualism
Post by: ChairmanPoo on October 18, 2013, 10:28:44 am
Let's be honest here, if we bash Justin Birber or Twilight, it's not because of their piss-poor quality, which I neither contest nor support (given that I've never read or heard either nor do I intend to). No, we simply do it to reinforce our masculinity via groupwa..think.
Title: Re: Anti-Intellectualism
Post by: Darkmere on October 18, 2013, 10:36:11 am
Let's be honest here, if we bash Justin Birber or Twilight, it's not because of their piss-poor quality, which I neither contest nor support (given that I've never read or heard either nor do I intend to). No, we simply do it to reinforce our masculinity via groupwa..think.

I agree with this, to an extent. There's really no justifiable excuse for downtalking how other people spend their leisure time when it doesn't affect you, except to reinforce self-image. I also fully admit that I do this often, and am trying to improve.
Title: Re: Anti-Intellectualism
Post by: Tyg13 on October 18, 2013, 11:24:27 am
The world fascinates me, I can't think of a single subject that doesn't interest me on some level.

Well, I can. Obviously, the subject of average people doesn't interest you much.  People and their social dynamics can be fascinating, but you choose to disregard this fruitful garden of intellectual growth.  ;)

Ha, actually average people interest me quite a great deal. They confuse me greatly. I often find myself fascinated by the way that people maintain different self-images in different environments and different people. Being an "average" person myself, I find it fun to compare other's behaviors to my own, to see where potential flaws in my personality lie.

But I get your point, there are obviously a lot of things that I'm not particularly interested in. I suppose I just find it difficult to find meaningful, intelligent conversations with my peers in high school. I wish there were somewhere other than here where I could have those kinds of discussions because right now I feel really cooped up in my own head. At least I'm graduating and, finances allowing, going to college where I'll be able to have that kind of discourse. Everything at this level is so dumbed down and mind-numbingly simple that I just can't take it anymore.

Does anyone know of any forums or something like that where I can talk about maths and the sciences? Especially math. I love math so much, and I've hit a roadblock in my mathematical studies. I've made my way through most of Calculus I-III in my own studies, but I'm stuck in Calc I in high school. I feel like there's a whole world of knowledge out there I'm missing, being stuck here in this drab, uninspiring high school where everything is catered to a standardized test.
Title: Re: Anti-Intellectualism
Post by: weenog on October 18, 2013, 02:10:41 pm
Does anyone know of any forums or something like that where I can talk about maths and the sciences?

Seriously?  All that talk about wonder and curiosity, and you start with asking us to do the work for you, rather than hitting a search engine, starting with something like "math forum", and exploring the internet for yourself?   That's a bit of a surprise.

Others have already covered the problem of coming off like a condescending know-it-all.  All I'll add to that part is that you might try asking people "Was that a rhetorical question and just thinking aloud, or would you like to talk simple, quick-and-dirty physics for a few minutes?"  It won't solve all your social problems, but it might help you learn their intent, and if they're going to get upset with you, at least you save a few minutes of time getting the nasty reaction out quickly.

A part of the problem that hasn't been addressed, as far as I've seen, is your age.  In your profile you profess to be 17 years old; if this is the truth, that has a significant impact on biases -- both other people's biases about you, and yours about the world.  You're all looking at each other through distorted lenses.

A well-known stereotype about your age group is that they know nothing of anything and think they know it all.  Unfortunately, like many stereotypes, there is a grain of truth there.  People learn a lot of new things in their adolescence, even those who don't recognize it or try to hide it, and this massive influx of knowledge tends to lead them to believe they understand more than they really do.  Furthermore, because many cultures shelter them from a lot of what adult life entails, they tend to be unprepared for and blind to a lot of what older people think of as the real world.  Listening to a teenager tell you about how the world works is a lot like listening to a plumber advising you to sort out a brain tumour problem with a pipe wrench and some caulk, or a shoe salesman suggesting you fix a leak by bringing home many different sizes, shapes, and styles of pipe and see which feels the best.  It's a crazy waste of breath, and an idiotic imposition on your time.  On the rare occasion you do encounter a plumber who is also a neurosurgeon, or trying to sell you shoes, you're unlikely to believe that's really the case.

A thing that you probably don't grok yet, because you haven't experienced much of it yet, is tempus fugit -- time flees.  You talk about people's lack of curiosity and wonder, but have you stopped to consider that they simply don't have the time nor the energy to fritter away on something that ranks very low on their priority list?  People can be busier than then'y look, particularly when those people have many real responsibilities.

Here I had planned to give you an hour-by-hour breakdown of my typical week at 32 years old, but I've already spent too much precious time on this post.  Let it suffice to say that in order to keep a roof over my head and my girl's, keep the utilities from being shut off, maintain my health, invest for retirement in a couple short decades, and make progress towards getting out of the dead-end job I hate and into genuine career, I need about 200 hours a week (there are 168 hours in a week).  Most of the time, my head is buzzing like a hornet's nest, I have to think so hard on the hoof.  I have always been the curious type, but I'm not going to appreciate it when I'm trying to figure out how to rearrange my schedule so I can work one more 10-hour shift this week, go put the fear of god into the mechanics that are ripping my girl off and fucking up her truck, find a reasonably-priced online college algebra course, examine and analyze the recent stock market movements so I can determine where to put my next investment, and schedule and practice for a road test so I can get a long-overdue driver's license, and somebody comes up and wants to play encyclopedia at me... even if it is a subject I do find interesting.  I'd love to learn more about a type of spider web I've never seen before -- I find arachnids fascinating -- but it's not worth being kicked back out into the snow in winter because I missed a rent payment.

You find school boring and pointless.  So do many people, for various reasons.  I did, I'd already learned most of what was taught on my own time, ahead of time, and I rebelled.  The whole system seemed like a screwed up waste of time.  I don't have the time to go into details, but you seem like you have copious free time.  Why don't you go read this essay (http://www.paulgraham.com/nerds.html)?  I read it when I had far fewer responsibilities and I had the time to do that kind of thing, and I found it illuminating.
Title: Re: Anti-Intellectualism
Post by: Jelle on October 18, 2013, 04:05:11 pm
God, I probably come off as some kind of elitist "at least I still wonder" asshole who's trying to make himself sound superior to everyone else.

See I didn't get that impression at all. All I saw was someone who is frustrated and in dire need of some mental stimulation. To see it as trying to assert superiority seems...odd to me.

Culture bashers don't usually talk to the people they're actually bashing, though.  It's just a symbol of superiority.  "Hey, you know, you and me, how we all hate Keeping up with the Kardashians. . ."

Say to a 13-year-old girl's face "Twilight sucks ass but I respect you as a person," or to a 3-year-old "Teletubbies suck but I think you'll grow up okay," and I'll say you're still completely missing the point, but at least you've demonstrated that you have convictions you believe in that are totally detached from bashing on "the sort of person who likes THAT sort of thing."  But, truth is, I've pretty much never seen these behaviors anywhere except as ways to identify yourself as part of a group--a group that is an improvement.

I don't disagree, but this is well and truly in the realm of opinions. Sure you can state your mind in a factual matter, 'I dont like x or y for reason a and b', but like you say that rarely happens. Instead it is exlaimed as a social truth in order to socially dominate the people who would belong to that group.
What I meant was acceptance of factual scientific things. e.g. Many in the states  refuse the theory of evolution (this is still true right?) despite overwhelming scientific evidence, because it is socially accepted that other opposing less scientific theorem are valid. In this case I think it's fine to go against the grain and stand by reason.

I think there is a big difference, sadly not something many agree with, who would call it all social domineering.

Why don't you go read this essay (http://www.paulgraham.com/nerds.html)?  I read it when I had far fewer responsibilities and I had the time to do that kind of thing, and I found it illuminating.
Yes, I will enjoy reading this. Much oblidged.
Title: Re: Anti-Intellectualism
Post by: Vector on October 18, 2013, 08:01:52 pm
Yes--I'm sorry I wasn't specific enough, Jelle.  I wasn't thinking clearly...


OP, here are your first two assignments.

1. Read Phaedrus.  Report back if you want to discuss.
2. Read, and do all exercises in, Principles of Real Analysis by Walter Rudin.

That should keep you pleasantly occupied for a while =]
Title: Re: Anti-Intellectualism
Post by: Tyg13 on October 18, 2013, 09:03:31 pm
I have to say, that essay did a pretty good job of reframing a lot of the poorly formed conclusions I'd reached from my own observations, as well as bring up some insights I could have never reached on my own. I actually don't typically stress a lot about being popular, or even liked, to be quite honest. I've long ago recognized that different people are good at different things, based on their interests, and being popular is just something I'm not interested in. Though I never really thought of being popular as being a skill, I can see the rationale behind treating it as such. I never really considered the idea it was the system that was creating the harsh environment of middle/high school, I had always bought into the whole "hormones" crap. There are a few gems of optimism in there, though and I appreciated the analysis. I think illuminating is the right word. I especially like the bit at the end, where it contrasts the dynamic between adults and teenagers in the Renaissance versus modern day. Never really imagined that there ever could be a world where teenagers respected adults and vice versa. Perhaps it's just the lack of perspective that comes with youth.

Oh, and I am 17, so there's always that. Explains the insecurity in my previous posts. And the inability to phrase my thoughts and frustrations in a coherent manner.

Yes--I'm sorry I wasn't specific enough, Jelle.  I wasn't thinking clearly...


OP, here are your first two assignments.

1. Read Phaedrus.  Report back if you want to discuss.
2. Read, and do all exercises in, Principles of Real Analysis by Walter Rudin.

That should keep you pleasantly occupied for a while =]

Okay, you are awesome. Both of those books sound incredibly interesting. I'll have to shop around and see if I can get a copy of Principles of Real Analysis on the cheap or at the library. As for Phaedrus, I'd figure something that old would be available on the internet for free. Very cool. Thanks again.
Title: Re: Anti-Intellectualism
Post by: nephilimnexus on October 23, 2013, 04:27:47 pm
I'd also like to suggest "The Image" by Daniel Borstein.

As the public's demand for information has increased the amount of actual information has become stretched thin to the point of complete irrelevance.  Therefore, it's not so much as people suffer from information overload but rather an underwhelming since of triviality to everything because it's all been painted too thin for anyone to care anymore.
Title: Re: Anti-Intellectualism
Post by: Korbac on October 27, 2013, 06:21:41 pm
I'd also like to suggest "The Image" by Daniel Borstein.

As the public's demand for information has increased the amount of actual information has become stretched thin to the point of complete irrelevance.  Therefore, it's not so much as people suffer from information overload but rather an underwhelming since of triviality to everything because it's all been painted too thin for anyone to care anymore.

Also the fact that we can just grab any facts from the webs so there's no repercussions to not learning many things. :P
Title: Re: Anti-Intellectualism
Post by: Zangi on October 27, 2013, 08:19:00 pm
I'd also like to suggest "The Image" by Daniel Borstein.

As the public's demand for information has increased the amount of actual information has become stretched thin to the point of complete irrelevance.  Therefore, it's not so much as people suffer from information overload but rather an underwhelming since of triviality to everything because it's all been painted too thin for anyone to care anymore.

Also the fact that we can just grab any facts from the webs so there's no repercussions to not learning many things. :P
Wrong, there are still repercussions.  People just don't understand that.

Plus, not so great edumacation system... with an abyss sized maw that is never satisfied.
Title: Re: Anti-Intellectualism
Post by: weenog on October 29, 2013, 11:56:48 am
I find the best way to use a smartphone for additional smarts is to treat it like the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, not an auxiliary brain.  Throw a question at google or wikipedia, skim the salient points, and get moving.  And don't forget your towel.
Title: Re: Anti-Intellectualism
Post by: Darkmere on October 29, 2013, 05:33:40 pm
There was a book put out some time ago by Alvin Toffler called Future Shock that covered the information overload quite well. The basic gist of it was: Back In The Day people had limited options for basically anything. There was a corner store you went to, a gas station you knew, your neighbors were familiar because in the winter you had to rely on them and they on you, and all that. As communication and transportation effectively shrank the world, more and more options started show up...

Now instead of the corner store you can go to any wal-mart, k-mart, minit-mart, or strip mall and get a lot of the same crap, and your food choices have expanded from corner market and neighbor's chickens to (pick any restaurant chain) and so on and so on. The overload of options and lack of time forces people to categorize everyone else as "service terminals" instead of being able to take the time and know them as people. It becomes a defense mechanism and spreads to all social interactions in some degree... but Alvin had no idea about Twatter and Farcebook fostering generations of selfish oversharers who simply multiply the problem, filling most of our "information processing time" (wasn't the word, I forget how he put it) with completely worthless non-information.
Title: Re: Anti-Intellectualism
Post by: Neonivek on October 30, 2013, 01:39:24 am
Edit: I think my post would make the topic creator cry... I'll save it somewhere... but I don't think I am ready for the responsibility if it puts anyone under emotional distress.

Mostly it was saying that the TC is incorrect in his assumption.
Title: Re: Anti-Intellectualism
Post by: Jelle on October 30, 2013, 05:00:47 am
Call me a utalitarian, but I find it silly to blame the technological advancements in communication technology for the degredation of social interaction. Instead of demonizing the tools, I think it far more meaningful to focus on the basic human nature at the root of the problem. I think we, as a species, are sufficiently capable of metacognition to see that we have created a world for ourselves where the base instincts that govern our social behavior are becoming incompatible, disfunctional, out of context of the primal world that created them in the first place.

In fact, I'd argue that social decay is an invetiability when the way we think in terms of social interaction is constant yet population ever increasing. Every social network, for all social animals, are doomed to become nothing but an echo chamber, the advancement of communication technology only expedites this. Shit just wasn't made to scale.

I'm always reminded of Calhoun (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_B._Calhoun)'s behavioral sink (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Behavioral_sink) on this topic. Sadly I don't share his optimism that we, as a species, can adapt to the changes we've brought on. I am ever the pessimist. :(


Bluh, I'm probably overdoing it.  :P
Title: Re: Anti-Intellectualism
Post by: Darkmere on October 30, 2013, 09:17:17 am
Eh, I think the tools are more of a symptom that has morphed into a cause. There's plenty of legitimate uses for twitter and facebook and whatever, but there's some compulsion that makes people want to use them as the end goal, rather than a means. Instead of confronting a relationship problem, just send them a breakup text and change your relationship status! Instead of volunteering at the local food bank, just Like it on facebook! Some people's inability to cope with reality has lead to those tools being created, which led to others learning they don't have to cope with reality.

I still say they greatly magnify the noise ratio on everyday communications, though, making the information filtering worse, regardless of why it's a phenomenon.
Title: Re: Anti-Intellectualism
Post by: Tyg13 on October 30, 2013, 09:53:12 am
Edit: I think my post would make the topic creator cry... I'll save it somewhere... but I don't think I am ready for the responsibility if it puts anyone under emotional distress.

Mostly it was saying that the TC is incorrect in his assumption.

Go head and post it, I've got thick skin. The general opinion of this forum seems to be that I'm wrong in my assumption anyways, so it's not like I haven't heard it before. If I can't learn to take criticism, no matter how harsh, then I'll never improve my faulty reasoning.
Title: Re: Anti-Intellectualism
Post by: Eagleon on October 31, 2013, 01:58:59 am
Call me a utalitarian, but I find it silly to blame the technological advancements in communication technology for the degredation of social interaction. Instead of demonizing the tools, I think it far more meaningful to focus on the basic human nature at the root of the problem. I think we, as a species, are sufficiently capable of metacognition to see that we have created a world for ourselves where the base instincts that govern our social behavior are becoming incompatible, disfunctional, out of context of the primal world that created them in the first place.
Facebook isn't exactly high-volume sensory interaction, but it's marketed heavily as a replacement, and the idea appeals to our sensibilities. We know we can empathize with people 'online' - that isn't anything special, we do it without the internet all the time by thinking about people. So in comes social media, which is supposed to connect us. It has our friend's name, right there, and a picture of him posing with his widget! We've known him since we were in Highschool! That's our friend!

But all we get from him is meme images. He doesn't care about us. Or maybe he wants meme images back. Post meme images!
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

You mention Calhoun. Yes, we're animals, with weird squishy biological animal motivations that interact to form our behavior and societies. That doesn't mean we can't understand each other - we're all the same species, after all, and we at least know ourselves. We also aren't mice, which is probably the most salient rebuttal to his experiments. Mice don't use tools. A tool, improperly used, can mess with our ability to understand each other. Hell, a word improperly spoken can mess with our ability to understand each other. We strategize from birth methods to communicate with our parents that we need food or comfort - you could teach a baby that the way to get fed is to do endless baby-acrobatics, and they'd do it, because it's now their word for 'hungry'.

Sometimes those strategies fail. There are a lot of circles where the only option is belonging and actively participating in a social network - you might as well be invisible if you don't. We've never had anything like that before - it's the equivalent of having an entire culture run by passing letters under semiopaque plexiglass boxes.

You can't touch someone through Facebook. At the same time, can you blame people for expecting that level of sensual connection from a block of text on a screen? It's a very easy trap to fall into, because the convenience of not having to make a trip to their house would honestly be pretty nice if it worked. No, really, why not? Telesex? Sign me up! But it just isn't as good as it's been hyped and proselytized as, and that is dangerous. Think about if Colt marketed their guns for surgery. Social bonds keep us from collapsing into despair - if we're using shitty tools to make them, we're going to have, on average, more people with social problems.

I have a few friends that've let it become their soul source of empathy for 'the human race' (they say this as if they weren't human, complete sense is made!), and it isn't pretty. I don't think it's our only problem, but I definitely don't think it's helping matters.
Title: Re: Anti-Intellectualism
Post by: PkGamer on November 12, 2013, 05:31:48 pm
You know what I hate?When a person , no matter who comes up to me and makes up the most ridiculous argument.And the person is like all proud then like, look I made the best argument ever and I got this smart person baffled?Well how are you supposed to answer something like: Just because it is better or I never touched it or sent the email or whatever if it's clear the person did?
Title: Re: Anti-Intellectualism
Post by: Vector on November 13, 2013, 12:35:03 am
I'd give you some advice if I could figure out what you were trying to ask =/
Title: Re: Anti-Intellectualism
Post by: Xazo-Tak on November 14, 2013, 08:54:14 pm
My experience with anti-intellectualism?
Both my parents, in different ways.
Title: Re: Anti-Intellectualism
Post by: kaenneth on November 20, 2013, 08:53:46 pm
You know what I hate?When a person , no matter who comes up to me and makes up the most ridiculous argument.And the person is like all proud then like, look I made the best argument ever and I got this smart person baffled?Well how are you supposed to answer something like: Just because it is better or I never touched it or sent the email or whatever if it's clear the person did?

If warm air rises, why is it colder at higher altitudes? Therefore global warming isn't happening.
Title: Re: Anti-Intellectualism
Post by: Korbac on November 21, 2013, 01:12:00 pm
Bread goes in, toast comes out

Can't explain that!