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Finally... => Forum Games and Roleplaying => Mafia => Topic started by: Mephansteras on November 26, 2013, 12:05:24 pm

Title: Paranormal 23 - Game Over!
Post by: Mephansteras on November 26, 2013, 12:05:24 pm

Time for another Paranormal. We're still hashing through a few rules discussions (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=34959.0) that you are welcome to come participate in, but things will move ahead regardless.

I'm planning on keeping sign-ups open until next Monday. Game will then start once I have the PMs done. Minimum 9 players, max 16.

Players

• RangerCado - Human Intelligence Scientist
• Jim Groovester
• Toaster
• Superblackcat - Doppelganger Leader
• Persus13
• Caz
• Tiruin
• ToonyMan
• TheDarkStar - Doppelganger (Anti-Tech Field)
• makeinu
• Imp - Tough Doppelganger

Replacements

Superblackcat replaced in for Max White (Lack of time)
ToonyMan replaced in for Sinlessmoon (Forced replace)

Lurker tracker for this game (http://think0028.com/lurkertracker.py?sort=post&postStart=0&url=http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=133676.msg4806797)

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Sign-ups! [0/16]
Post by: Mephansteras on November 26, 2013, 12:05:45 pm

Here are the current rules:

Here is the (current) list of possible roles:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

• Townie
      Visible Role: No Role
      Race: Human
      Goal: Survive
      Rules: Normal citizen. No powers, just your wits and a desire to live
      Victory: Town Wins
  
• Doppelganger
      Visible Role: No Role
      Race: Doppelganger
      Goal: Kill
     Flavor: Doppelgangers kill using their teeth and claws. They generally feast upon the flesh of their victims, and often leave nothing but a pool of blood as evidence
      Rules: Body-snatching, man-eating monster. You want to feast on human flesh and avoid being caught
      Victory: Doppelgangers Win
  
• Doppelganger leader
      Visible Role: No Role
      Race: Doppelganger
      Visible Race: Human
      Goal: Kill
     Flavor: Doppelgangers kill using their teeth and claws. They generally feast upon the flesh of their victims, and often leave nothing but a pool of blood as evidence
      Rules: More powerful and adept then the others, the leader is immune to detection by Agent or Detective short of death. The Telepath will still receive a 'kill' goal from the Dopp Leader, however.
      Victory: Doppelgangers Win
  
• Advanced Doppelganger
      Visible Role: No Role
      Race: Doppelganger
      Goal: Kill
     Flavor: Doppelgangers kill using their teeth and claws. They generally feast upon the flesh of their victims, and often leave nothing but a pool of blood as evidence
      Rules: An experimental advanced version of the doppelganger. Once per game the advanced doppelganger can Consume and Replace the target for that night. In game terms, the player who was the doppelganger is now out of the game (although he still wins with the dopps), and the player targeted by the advanced dopp becomes a doppelganger. This new form of doppelganger is unstable, however, and cannot have any other abilities. Any abilities possessed by the Consumed character are lost, including Mind Shield. The advanced doppelganger shows up as a normal doppelganger would to all investigative roles. Aliens cannot be Consumed, but the once-per-game limit on the ability is not used up if the Adv. Dopp tries to consume them.
      Victory: Doppelgangers Win
  
• Tough Doppelganger
      Visible Role: No Role
      Race: Doppelganger
      Goal: Kill
     Flavor: Doppelgangers kill using their teeth and claws. They generally feast upon the flesh of their victims, and often leave nothing but a pool of blood as evidence
      Rules: Similar to a normal doppelganger, but much tougher. The Tough doppelganger is immune to a regular Night Kill. Certain tech kills, like the Plasma Bomb, are still effective.
      Victory: Doppelgangers Win
  
• War Vet
      Race: Human/Doppelganger
      Goal: Kill (Always)
     Flavor: The War vet uses guns, explosives, or booby traps to kill anyone that visits them.
      Rules: Is trigger happy and will kill anyone visiting them at night, although they still die if the night target was deadly. Can choose to turn off this ability for a night (leaving themselves vulnerable). A Role-Blocked War Vet loses thier kill ability for the night.
      Victory: Town/Doppelgangers win
  
• Vigilante
      Race: Human/Doppelganger
      Goal: Kill
     Flavor: The Vigilante uses guns to kill his target, regardless of Race
      Rules: This character is similar to the war vet, story wise. However, while the War Vet stays at home and shoots anything that moves, the Vigilante goes out hunting himself. He gets one kill each night. If he is a dopp, he may either perform the group night-kill or his own kill.
      Victory: Town/Doppelgangers win
  
• Agent
      Race: Human/Doppelganger
      Goal: Find
      Rules: An FBI agent investigating the situation. Can investigate one person per night to determine their Race. Roles with a 'Visible Race' tag will show that Race instead of their true race.
      Victory: Town/Doppelgangers win
  
• Detective
      Race: Human/Doppelganger
      Goal: Find
      Rules: During the night, the Detective can investigate a character to determine what role, if any, the character possesses. Roles with the 'Visible Role' tag will show that role instead of thier actual Role..
      Victory: Town/Doppelgangers win
  
• Telepath
      [Psychic]
      Race: Human/Doppelganger
      Goal: Find
      Rules: The Telepath has limited psychic powers. Once per night, the Telepath can investigate a player and use their powers to determine the goal that character had that night based on their Role and Actions taken. The Telepath need not leave his house to use his powers.
      Victory: Town/Doppelgangers win
  
• Medium
      [Psychic]
      Race: Human/Doppelganger
      Goal: Find (Always)
      Rules: The medium can freely communicate with Dead characters via PM/Ghost Chat. This ability works during both the Day and Night phases.
      Victory: Town/Doppelgangers win
  
• Reporter
      Race: Human/Doppelganger
      Goal: Find
      Rules: Years of following celebrities around has given this person the ability to track anyone anywhere and keep out of sight in the process. Each night the Reporter can choose to either follow someone to see where they go or watch to see if anyone visits them that night. The Reporter does NOT get any more information about what happens, only the location visited or the people at the location. Attempting to follow a War Vet is still fatal, of course.
      Victory: Town/Doppelgangers win
  
• Bodyguard
      Race: Human/Doppelganger
      Goal: Protect
     Flavor: When killed while performing a Protection the Bodyguard's remains will be found somewhere outside of their room/house.
      Rules: The Bodyguard is randomly given one of four abilities at the start of the game. The bodyguard uses these abilities to protect another player during the night.
         
  • Heroic Guard: The bodyguard will protect the other player with their life. This variant will sacrifice themself to prevent all night-kills targeting the other player from effecting them. The Bodyguard dies at the end of the night.
  • Observant Guard: The bodyguard will protect the other player with their life. This variant protects against the first night-kill against their target, and will determine the identity of the attacker and pass on this information to their guarded target. The Bodyguard dies at the end of the night.
  • Vengeful Guard: The bodyguard will protect the other player with their life. This variant protects against the first night-kill against their target and kills the attacker in the process. The Bodyguard dies at the end of the night.
  • Guardian: This powerful bodyguard will prevent one kill attempt on the target that night. The Guardian is not killed by doing so.
      Victory: Town/Doppelgangers win
  
• Psychic Warden
      [Psychic]
      Race: Human/Doppelganger
      Goal: Protect
     Flavor: The Psychic Warden uses invisible psychic chains to bind his target. The target will feel a binding sensation trapping thier limbs as well as rapid exhaustion that puts them to sleep. The Psychic Warden will always have a candle and metal chain in their room.
      Rules: The psychic warden can use his abilities to foil other characters. Each night he can pick a character. That character cannot take any role-related actions for that night and following day. The Psychic Warden does not need to leave his house to use this power. All targets, regardless of role, will be aware that they have been tampered with.
      Victory: Town/Doppelgangers win
  
• Mad Scientist
      Race: Human/Doppelganger
      Goal: Based on Tech or Actions
     Flavor: The Flavor of a Mad Scientist will generally depend on the tech chosen.
      Rules: The Mad Scientist has been secretly working on his amazing project in the town. He was going to sell it to the government, but due to the current disaster, he's going to have to give it an early field test. At the beginning of the game the Mad Scientist picks one of three technologies to start the game with, depending on which Variant they are. All Mad Scientists have access to the Mind Shield and Anti-Tech field.
      Variants:
         
  • Military Scientist
  • Assassin bot: Once per game the MS can use the assassin bot to perform a Morning Kill on another player. This attack cannot be traced back to the Mad Scientist.
  • Sentry Guns: Functions like the War Vet, attacking and killing anyone who comes snooping around the Mad Scientist's house. However, it has limited ammo (it is just a prototype version), and only works for one night once triggered. Should the Mad Scientist be attacked, it is the Sentry Gun that is destroyed not the Scientist. Once destroyed, the Sentry gun cannot protect against any further attacks that night. The Sentry Guns can be programmed with face recognition to allow safe passage to people that the Mad Scientist deems trustworthy. This can be changed on a night-per-night basis.
  • EMP Pulse Bomb: This device is a one-shot item used at night. All Tech devices are shorted out that night. Any actions relying on a tech device are blocked. Tech devices can be fixed the following night, but this uses up any Night Actions of that player.
  
  
  • Cutting Edge Scientist
  • Body Double: A perfect body double. It could be organic, robotic, even a hologram. Regardless, it takes his place in dangerous situations while he stays safe. This allows him to escape a Lynch by having the body double destroyed in his place during the day. It's a one-use item, though, so he's vulnerable after it's been destroyed.
  • Mind Control Ray: Once per game the MS can use the Mind Control Ray to choose another player's target for the night. If the player does not have a night action (and is not the dopp chosen for the night kill), or if the player has a limited-use night ability and chose not to use it, then no action occurs. The Ray also allows the Scientist to control that player's vote during the next day and may change it as often as he wishes. Its effect is fairly obvious, however.
  • Psychic Pulser: This device is a one-shot item used at night. All Psychic players (excluding Mind Shields) are blocked for that night and cannot use any Psychic Abilities until the following Night. Mediums can read dead chat but cannot post in it until the following night.
   
  
  • Intelligence Scientist
  • Surveillance System: A highly advanced security system watches over the Mad Scientist's house. He knows the identity of anyone who visits his house during the night a well as thier general purpose (Find, Protect, Kill). Of course, if it's to kill him he finds that out the hard way.
  • Snooper bot: This little bug-bot can trail another player at night and see where they go (if anywhere).
  • Advanced Tracking Devices: These devices are planted on players during the day. Once planted they show where the tracked individual is. If the player being tracked is killed, the device is lost. The Scientist starts with 2 devices and can create more devices by spending two nights working to build one.
   
  • All types of Mad Scientist can build the following
  • Mind Shield: The Mind Shield gives the user a Mind Shield. Should the user already possess a Natural Mind Shield, it will be upgraded to an Advanced Mind Shield. An advanced mind shield provides the same protection as a normal mind shield, but has the added benefit of always appearing to work to the one using psychic powers against the user. Telepaths will always receive a 'Survive' result, Psychic Wardens will not know their power is blocked, and so on.
  • Anti-Tech Field: The Anti-Tech Field gives the user a Anti-Tech Field. Should the user already possess a Natural Anti-Tech Field, it will be upgraded to an Advanced Anti-Tech Field. An Advanced Anti-Tech Field provides the same protection as a normal Anti-Tech Field, but has the added benefit of always appearing to work to the one using tech items against the user (Except for killing techs). Tracking devices will show the player at home, Scanners will show Vanilla Townie, etc. Single-target One Shot items ARE used up when used against an Advanced Anti-Tech field.
     
          Due to their mechanical nature, the Inventions cannot be stopped by a Psychic Warden
      Victory: Town/Doppelgangers win
  
• Enchanter
      [Psychic]
      Race: Human/Doppelganger
      Goal: Survive
      Rules: The Enchanter uses his Psychic abilities to make people weight his vote more than others. His votes count double. If at any point there are more Mind Shields then regular players, this power will not work.
      Victory: Town/Doppelgangers win
  
• Rogue Doppelganger
      Race: Doppelganger
      Goal: Kill
      Rules: A lone Doppelganger from a previous infiltration, either seeking to protect it's new hunting area or to rejoin others of its kind. Acts as a third party with either Town Ally or Dopp Ally win condition (set at the start of the game), but does not know who the dopp team are in either case. Once during the game the Rogue Doppelganger may Night Kill another player.
      Victory: Town/Doppelgangers win
  
• Xenozoologist
      Race: Alien
      Goal: Find
      Tech: 1 Medium Tech Slot
      Rules: The Alien Scientist is on earth to capture one example of each species for study (1 human, 1 psychic human, 1 doppelganger, 1 alien). Each night he may choose to Abduct a player. If that player is of a race he does not have, they are removed from the game and kept for study. If he already has one, they are returned to play the following morning. The Scientist and all of his captives may freely PM one another. Once he has 1 of each, he wins and he and all abducted players are removed from the game. If he is killed, all abducted players are returned to the game. If the game ends and he does not have one of each, he loses. He only obstructs the win condition of the Exterminator.
      Victory: Captures 1 normal human, 1 psychic human, 1 doppelganger, and 1 alien
  
• Survivor
      Visible Role: No Role
      Race: Alien
      Goal: Survive
      Rules: The Alien is there for some other purpose, and is simply hiding as a human. Their only goal is to survive until the end of the game. They win as long as they are alive, regardless of which side wins.
      Tech: 1 Small Tech Slot
      Victory: Is alive and unabducted at the end of the game
  
• Exterminator
      Race: Alien
      Goal: Kill
     Flavor: The Exterminator kills using high-tech energy weapons or rather brutal bladed weapons.
      Rules: The doppelganger infestation is a danger to the Alien's people, and it and all traces of it must be wiped from the Earth. The Alien kills one person a night. The Alien wins when all non-ext aligned players are dead. The Exterminator does not need to be alive to win. The Exterminator always has a natural Mind Shield or Anti-Tech Field (Player's choice).
      Tech: 1 Medium and 1 Large Tech Slot
      Victory: All non-Exterminator aligned players are dead
  
• Exterminator Operative
      Visible Role: Operative
      Race: Alien
      Goal: Based on Action
      Rules: The Operative is sent along with the Exterminator to aid them in their task. The Operative and the Exterminator may freely exchange Tech between them.
      Tech: 1 Medium and 2 Small Slots
      Victory: All non-Exterminator aligned players are dead
  
• Agent Operative
      Visible Role: Operative
      Race: Alien
      Goal: Based on Action
      Rules: This Operative is working with the government and has been sent along to assist an Agent in aiding the town. The Operative is not told who the Agent is until the First Night, however. In addition, the government has no way of knowing if the Agent is still human. The Operative should use caution when contacting the agent.
      Tech: 1 Medium and 2 Small Slots
      Victory: Town wins
  
• Spore Spreader
      Race: Alien
      Goal: Kill
      Rules: This alien organism has been engineered to spread by spores and take over hosts. For one reason or another, this Bioweapon has been set loose. There are two types of Spore Spreaders.
          Infester: The Infester must manually go to targets as a Night Action, infesting the target with Spores. The goal of the Infester is to have ALL surviving players at the end of the game infected with spores. The Infester need not be alive to win, and in fact when Lynched (but not killed otherwise), the Infester releases a spore cloud that randomly infects one of the non-infected players. The spores of this Alien are biological/nanomachine hybrids, and are therefore blocked by a Tech Shield. Guards may protect the target, and will be effected as normal for the guard type by the infection.
          Bloom: This Spore Spreader has a special ability that allows it to Seed the area with Alien plants at night once during the game. All players will be made aware of the plants the following morning. That day, the players MUST perform a lynch. If the SS is lynched that day, it will send forth a cloud of chemicals that will activate the plants. The plants then release spores that convert all other players into Spore Spreaders, and winning the game for the SS. If the SS is not lynched, then it will die the following night and lose.
      Tech: 0 Slots
      Victory: All players at game end Infected/The Spore Spreader must be lynched the day following the Seeding.
  
• Hivemind
      Race: Alien
      Goal: Kill/Protect
      Rules: The Hivemind is an Alien on the run. Using either Technology or advanced Psychic Powers (Player's choice at start) the Hivemind dominates the humans in the town in order to ensure its survival. Once per night the Hivemind Alien chooses a player to convert. If the player is human, and does not have the appropriate blocking ability, they join the Hivemind's faction. Converted players keep their current role, but switch teams and win condition. If the Hivemind dies, all converted players die with them.
        Psychic Hivemind: Mentally dominates a human using Psychic powers. Blocked by Mind Shield. Advanced Mind Shield shows as 'Non Human' regardless of race. Can by role-blocked by Psychic Wardens. As a Psychic Being, the Hivemind cannot take a Mind Shield as tech.
        Tech Hivemind: Uses advanced technology to dominate a human. Blocked by Anti-Tech Field. Advanced Anti-Tech Field shows as 'Non Human' regardless of race. Cannot be role-blocked, but the target can be Guarded. A sacrificial Guard will be converted instead of the intended target. A Guardian will be able to protect the target and not get converted themselves.
      Tech: 1 Medium Slot
      Victory: The Hivemind wins when all opposing groups are dead and the town has no way of stopping them (Vig, War Vet, etc)
  
• Harvester
      Race: Alien
      Goal: Kill/Find
      Rules: The Harvester is collecting things for its own purposes. There are two different types of Harvesters. A Harvester may choose to Abduct another player during the Night Phase.
        Organ Harvester - The Abducted player is killed. The Harvester acts as a Doom Speaker, and is building an Abomination. After some # of nights (based on player count) the Abomination is released and performs a Night Kill attempt on every player.
        Mind Stealer - Copies the Role from the Abducted player for the following day/night as well as the Win Condition of that player until a new one is acquired. The abducted player reverts to a vanilla role for the rest of the game(Aliens will all become survivors). If the Mind Stealer doesn't have any other goal, then it is a Survivor.      
      Tech: 0 Slots
      Victory: Organ Harvester wins when all other players are dead. The OH must be alive at the end of the game. The Mind Stealer wins if its current win condition is fulfilled.
  

    All aliens get to pick from the following set of equipment to start the game with, based on the number of Tech slots listed under their role. An alien can only have 1 of any given item unless otherwise noted.

    Item list:
   

• Small Tech
• Personal Shield: Works once as though guarded by the Guardian. Will also protect against Morningkills.
• Mind Shield: The Mind Shield gives the user a Mind Shield. Should the user already possess a Natural Mind Shield, it will be upgraded to an Advanced Mind Shield. An advanced mind shield provides the same protection as a normal mind shield, but has the added benefit of always appearing to work to the one using psychic powers against the user. Telepaths will always receive a 'Survive' result, Psychic Wardens will not know their power is blocked, and so on. Stacks with a natural or tech-based Anti-Tech Field.
• Anti-Tech Field: The Anti-Tech Field gives the user a Anti-Tech Field. Should the user already possess a Natural Anti-Tech Field, it will be upgraded to an Advanced Anti-Tech Field. An Advanced Anti-Tech Field provides the same protection as a normal Anti-Tech Field, but has the added benefit of always appearing to work to the one using tech items against the user (Except for killing techs). Tracking devices will show the player at home, Scanners will show Vanilla Townie, etc. Single-target One Shot items ARE used up when used against an Advanced Anti-Tech field. Stacks with a natural or tech-based Mind Shield.
• Holoform Modulator: Works once when investigated, allowing the alien to choose a role and race to show as. Once activated it lasts the entire night but is used up after that.
• Scanner: Works once as a combination of the Agent and Detective, showing both Race and Role as well as any gadgets or tech possessed by the player. The scanner bypasses all role effects on investigation (such as the Kook or Dopp Leader). The scanner does not use up the Alien's action, nor does it trigger any responses by the target (such as PWV or Reporter watching a location). Can be taken as a two-use item for a Medium tech slot.
• Hold-out Blaster: If the Alien is lynched, he pulls out the blaster and gets to shoot a single target before dying. If he is night-killed, he gets a shot off on his attacker (although he still suffers the effect of the attack). This is a one-shot item.
• Stun Orb: Allows the Alien to stun another player, preventing them from taking any actions that night or using any active abilities the following day (Role-block another player). 1 Use, does use up the alien's action. Does not trigger War Vet/Turret response.  Can be taken as a two-use item for a Medium tech slot.
     
     
• Medium Tech
• Advanced Holoform Modulator: Works as the Holoform Modulator, but also allows the Alien to project an active hologram. This hologram can be shown to go to any location (or stay at home). Anyone following the Alien will watch the Hologram instead of the Alien. In addition, the Advanced Holoform Modulator will screen against Psychic and Tech detection as well. It will not, however, protect the alien from a War Vet or Sentry Guns at the location they actually visit. Once activated it lasts the entire night but is used up after that.
• Permanent Holoform Modulator: Works as the Holoform Modulator, but is not used up when inspected.
• Assassin bot: Once per game the Alien can use the assassin bot to Morning-kill another player. This attack cannot be traced back to the Alien. In addition, it is triggered remotely and can be used even while abducted.
• Mind Control Ray: Once per game the Alien can use the Mind Control Ray to choose another player's target for the night as well as their vote for the next day. If the player does not have a night action (and is not the dopp/cultist chosen for the night kill), or if the player has a limited-use night ability and chose not to use it, then no action occurs. The alien still controls the vote on the next day.
• Stun Bomb: Allows the Alien to stun the entire town, preventing any player from using an Action for that night or using any active abilities the following day. The Alien who uses it is unaffected. Does not use up the Alien's action for that night.
• Combat Camouflage: A combination of weapons and accessories that allows the Exterminator to mask his kills as if they came from any source (Vig, Dopp, or Abduction). Also works on kills made by Assassin Bots.
• EMP Pulse Emitter: Can be used to Target a single player each night. Any Tech devices used by that player that night are shorted out and must be fixed the following night. If the player's action relied on the Tech item, they are roleblocked. Does not use up the Alien's action for that night.
• Psychic Pulse Emitter: Can be used to Target a single player each night. Prevents the player from using any Psychic Abilities (except for a Mind Shield) for that night and the next day phase. Does not use up the Alien's action for that night.
     
     
• Large Tech
• Intel You begin the game with Intel on the survivors in the town. This gives you a list of all Roles in the game, but not who has them. You may choose any other techs you get after receiving the information from Intel. Large tech slot.
• Plasma Bomb: One use per game, can be chosen in lieu of a nightkill, which will kill the target, and anyone interacting with the target, and anyone interacting with them, and so on. Cannot be protected against. It is triggered remotely, so the Alien is smart enough to stay out of the Blast Radius, and is therefore unaffected (assuming he's not targeting himself for some reason). Can also be used while abducted. Only effects people physically at that location (so Psychics are fine). Large tech slot.
• Replicator: Large Tech Slot. The Replicator Can create a single Medium Tech item or two Small tech items before it runs out of energy and materials. Allows the Alien more flexibility to respond to changing situations in exchange for the more powerful items that would need to be brought at the outset.
• Advanced Targeting System: Large Tech slot. Using this advanced weapon allows an Exterminator to bypass all forms of protection on a target. A Night Kill from an alien with this system cannot be prevented.
• Advanced Assassin bot: Once per game the Alien can use the assassin bot to Day-kill another player. This attack cannot be traced back to the Alien. In addition, it is triggered remotely and can be used even while abducted. Activation of this device must be done via PM to the mod. Once activated it will kill the player before the day ends.
   

Alien Tech can be passed between players as long as both players agree to the trade. This must be done via PM. Tech can be used the night it is passed, but can only be used by one person per night (if it is a multi-use item).

Attributes

• Mind Shield
      [Psychic]
      Race: Any
      Rules: This character is completely immune to all Psychic effects and abilities (Telepath and Psychic Warden). The Mind Shield is not a role in itself, but an ability granted to a non-psychic character that may or may not already have a role. Psychic characters will be aware of a Mind Shield blocking their abilities. The character with a Mind Shield will know that they were targeted but not the specific effect.
  
• Anti-Tech Field
      [Psychic]
      Race: Any
      Rules: This character is completely immune to all Tech effects and abilities (Mad Scientist and Alien tech). The Anti-Tech Field is not a role in itself, but an ability granted to a non-psychic character that may or may not already have a role. Tech characters will be aware that their item was blocked. Single Target one-shot items are not used up, but the action is wasted. The character with an anti-tech field will know that they were targeted but not the specific effect.
  
• Kook
      Race: Human
      Visible Race: Doppelganger
      Rules: The guy who's always seemed a bit "off" to everyone. Now his behavior has gotten even more erratic. It's really due to stress from the killings and whatnot, but it makes the Agent confuse him for a Doppelganger.
  

     

Definitions:
    Doppelganger: These foul creatures kill and eat humans, taking on all of their memories and abilities. Once they have a form, most doppelgagners cannot change again. They are a flawed species, and possess and uncontrollable bloodlust forcing them to kill and eat humans each night. Their goal is to destroy all of the humans in the town and make their way out into the larger world.
    Night Kill: Any kill that happens during the Night Phase. The Doppelgangers each get 1 Night Kill as a group, in addition to any allowed by Roles.
    Morningkill: A morning kill happens between the night and day phase, and cannot be prevented by abilities that prevent night kills (Such as the Guardian). A Morning Kill will always look like it recently happened.
    Abduction: When a player abducts another player, two things happen. First, the abducted player is role-blocked for the night. Second, that player is removed from play for that night (and possibly the game). While removed, they cannot be the target of any other night action and cannot vote or be lynched during the day. Exceptions: The Paranoid War Vet and Sentry Gun are not role-blocked by an abduction, and will kill the player attempting the abduction. Abducted players are not role-flipped until their abductor leaves the game.

---

I've written a perl script to pick roles and whatnot randomly. It has some rules that it follows, but it should make for a nice amount of randomness to the set-up. Note that while I'll generally just go with whatever it spits out, I may make modifications to the set-up in order to make a more interesting game or to test out a specific feature. Also note that I will intentionally mess or not mess with stuff just to screw up anyone depending on the Gambler's Fallacy.

Note that the script NO LONGER restricts most roles to only one or two per side. Being able to use meta-game deduction to determine that someone must be town/scum breaks the game, so I've removed the aspects of the game that allow that.

Not all roles are guaranteed. In fact, it's quite possible to have a game with nothing but normal doppelgangers and humans.


General Rules:
 

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

  Rule on PMs: Private Messages are allowed. However, I must be copied on all PMs. Failure to do so will result in very bad things happening to you. In addition you may NOT quote any PM from me, either your initial Role-PM or any role-related PMs. (Night role results, etc).  I'll make an exception for specifically rules-related questions. This is to keep the suspense and uncertainty in the game high. You're not supposed to know if the other person is lying or not, and quoting me gives too much weight to whatever it is you're saying.

  The Game will have a set Maximum game-day that it will go to. At that point, any players who have not already achieved thier victory conditions will lose. I will give ample warning beforehand if this event is imminent. This is to prevent stalemates from developing and dragging a game out forver.
 
  Nights will last for 24 hours or until I've heard from each player with a night role, whichever comes first.
    In the event of night role collision, see the order of presidence below. All actions within the same level are assumed to happen simultaniously.
    The Doppelgangers may choose to skip thier night kill. They may only do this twice in a row before their bloodlust forces them to kill.

  Days will last for 72 hours or until everyone has voted (if there is a long period of inactivity after everyone votes I'll end the day to keep things moving).
    In the event of a tie, no lynch will occur.

  Extensions: Extensions require at least 25% of the living players requesting an extension. Votes against the extension will reduce the counted number requesting (so, of 8 players if 3 vote for an extension and one votes against it it's still 2 for, which is 25%, which grants the extension.)
Extensions will extend the day by 24 hours. No more then two extensions will be granted on any given game day.

  Shortening: Since shortening can have such a huge effect on the game it requires a Majority of living players voting for it to occur. (Over %50)

  Conditional voting is currently unavailable, so you'll either have to vote carefully or make sure you log on before the end of the day if you want to change your vote.

  All votes should be colored red to make it easy for me to spot them.

  Inactive players who are up for Replacement will have their Vote cleared to prevent an unmovable vote from screwing up the game.

  Speaking While Dead: The dead may post once after they have died to comment on their death. They may not provide any information about the game in this post. After this, any posting in the game before it has ended will result in a one game ban from future Paranormal games. Repeated abuse, or posts that have a major impact on the game, can result in a permaban from any future Paranormal games (and probably a lot of other Forum games as well as word gets around).

  Dead may freely PM a Medium character if that role is present in the game.

  Doppelgagners and the Dead will have special chat areas on http://www.quicktopic.com. I will PM the appropriate link to you at the start of the game or when you die. A Medium will have access to the Dead channel. The Dead channel will start with a statement of whether or not there is a Medium in the game.

  Event Order: The order of events is as follows:

    Mind Control
    Pure Role-blockers
    Abductors
    Protectors
    Investigators
    Night Kills/Conversions (The War Vet (or equivalent) is sort of an exception, in that he'll kill anyone who targets them on THEIR turn, rather than his)

  All kills will be effectively simultaneous. (I may make some literary liberties with this in the PMs, but there won't be any cases like the Dopps->Exterminator->Townie chain like Game 2 had)
 
  A Pure Role-blocker is a Psychic Warden, Stun Orb, or similar effect that's only purpose is to role-block. Since all role-blocks happen at the same time, a Role-blocker is effectively unblockable.

 

  Feel free to ask for clarification on any rule.
 

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Sign-ups! [0/16]
Post by: Toaster on November 26, 2013, 12:08:25 pm

Are your proposed SS changes going in?

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Sign-ups! [0/16]
Post by: Mephansteras on November 26, 2013, 12:24:53 pm

Quote from: Toaster on November 26, 2013, 12:08:25 pm

Are your proposed SS changes going in?

Possibly. I'm not sure yet what will change from the discussions. People are welcome to give their opinions of things they like to have go in or not go in.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Sign-ups! [0/16]
Post by: RangerCado on November 26, 2013, 12:37:21 pm

...I've been thinking about joining a mafia game again, and trying to learn from past mistakes. Paranormal games always caught my eye and were one of my favorites to read so, a tentative IN from me if you'll have me.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Sign-ups! [0/16]
Post by: Mephansteras on November 26, 2013, 12:39:00 pm

Quote from: RangerCado on November 26, 2013, 12:37:21 pm

...I've been thinking about joining a mafia game again, and trying to learn from past mistakes. Paranormal games always caught my eye and were one of my favorites to read so, a tentative IN from me if you'll have me.

Sure, as long as you can commit to the game. I'd rather have fewer players who stick around the entire time than starting off with a large game that suffers from inactivity.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Sign-ups! [0/16]
Post by: RangerCado on November 26, 2013, 12:43:31 pm

I have WAY too much time on my hands as is, so I'll be around plenty to be able to play.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Sign-ups! [1/16]
Post by: zombie urist on November 26, 2013, 01:17:37 pm

How do you make 76 posts a day?  :o

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Sign-ups! [1/16]
Post by: zombie urist on November 26, 2013, 01:18:06 pm

Tentative replacement

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Sign-ups! [1/16]
Post by: RangerCado on November 26, 2013, 01:31:10 pm

Quote from: zombie urist on November 26, 2013, 01:17:37 pm

How do you make 76 posts a day?  :o

By playing in two really active RP's in Forum games, a few other minor games around, and having only joined in march... I may also be trying to beat GreatGoldWyrm's posting record of over 40000 posts.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Sign-ups! [1/16]
Post by: Jim Groovester on November 26, 2013, 02:03:33 pm

I think I can manage another game.

In.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Sign-ups! [1/16]
Post by: Toaster on November 26, 2013, 02:08:03 pm

Damn it, I can't pass up Paranormal.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Sign-ups! [3/16]
Post by: Sinlessmoon on November 26, 2013, 02:13:51 pm

Never played a forum mafia game...

IN.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Sign-ups! [3/16]
Post by: RangerCado on November 26, 2013, 04:11:10 pm

Quote from: Sinlessmoon on November 26, 2013, 02:13:51 pm

Never played a forum mafia game...

IN.

Hello and welcome to the sub forum! We like to encourage new players to join, but you may want to consider joining the next Beginners Mafia in a week or two. THese games also tend to take a month and a half at minimum, so you should be prepared for it. Playing on the forums is really different from playing it IRL, but if you think you can handle it, Meph will probably let you in.

My one bit of advice to you right now is, Get everyones genders right... it will save many an accidental offense.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Sign-ups! [1/16]
Post by: webadict on November 26, 2013, 04:15:24 pm

Quote from: zombie urist on November 26, 2013, 01:17:37 pm

How do you make 76 posts a day?  :o

I own about 7% of all the posts in the mafia subforum.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Sign-ups! [3/16]
Post by: Max White on November 26, 2013, 04:17:49 pm

Yea, I'm In... Hoping to roll spore spreader and then win long after my own death.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Sign-ups! [3/16]
Post by: Mephansteras on November 26, 2013, 04:21:49 pm

Quote from: Sinlessmoon on November 26, 2013, 02:13:51 pm

Never played a forum mafia game...

IN.

As has been suggested, you may find a Beginner's Mafia a better place to start off. Paranormal, while not as difficult as some other set-ups, still has a huge number of possible roles and potential interactions that can influence the course of the game.

That said, I've had players start off with Paranormals before and been fine. My only real requirement is that you be willing to commit to the game. That means active participation in the Day phase discussion and a willingness to stick with the game even if it goes on for a month or two. Having players become inactive or drop out part-way through causes a lot of problems and can ruin the fun. If you're comfortable with that level of commitment, and want to play anyway, you're welcome to join up.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Sign-ups! [4/16]
Post by: Persus13 on November 26, 2013, 04:28:36 pm

I'm willing to play IN another Meph game.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Sign-ups! [1/16]
Post by: Tiruin on November 26, 2013, 05:18:44 pm

Quote from: RangerCado on November 26, 2013, 01:31:10 pm

Quote from: zombie urist on November 26, 2013, 01:17:37 pm

How do you make 76 posts a day?  :o

By playing in two really active RP's in Forum games, a few other minor games around, and having only joined in march... I may also be trying to beat GreatGoldWyrm's posting record of over 40000 posts.

...I'd only be saying something bad about that 'posting record', but that's me and my preference in what is being posted I guess.
Seriously. Don't try.

Quote from: Toaster on November 26, 2013, 02:08:03 pm

Damn it, I can't pass up Paranormal.

Y'know the bolded portion equals a 'what' in my language here xD

Intuition tells me that I should in here, but I'm unsure given how I post. Am I understandable in general? I'd really like to 'in' here, but...recent events tell me that I'd rather not given my way of...speaking.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Sign-ups! [1/16]
Post by: Shakerag on November 26, 2013, 05:22:30 pm

Quote from: Tiruin on November 26, 2013, 05:18:44 pm

Intuition tells me that I should in here, but I'm unsure given how I post. Am I understandable in general? I'd really like to 'in' here, but...recent events tell me that I'd rather not given my way of...speaking.

You're fine. 

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Sign-ups! [5/16]
Post by: Tiruin on November 26, 2013, 05:28:59 pm

..Really? How fine? Coarse or smooth? Because prior evidence tells me otherwise :S

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Sign-ups! [3/16]
Post by: Sinlessmoon on November 26, 2013, 05:40:35 pm

Quote from: Mephansteras on November 26, 2013, 04:21:49 pm

Quote from: Sinlessmoon on November 26, 2013, 02:13:51 pm

Never played a forum mafia game...

IN.

As has been suggested, you may find a Beginner's Mafia a better place to start off. Paranormal, while not as difficult as some other set-ups, still has a huge number of possible roles and potential interactions that can influence the course of the game.

That said, I've had players start off with Paranormals before and been fine. My only real requirement is that you be willing to commit to the game. That means active participation in the Day phase discussion and a willingness to stick with the game even if it goes on for a month or two. Having players become inactive or drop out part-way through causes a lot of problems and can ruin the fun. If you're comfortable with that level of commitment, and want to play anyway, you're welcome to join up.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Sign-ups! [5/16]
Post by: ToonyMan on November 26, 2013, 05:55:53 pm

Ooooh I want to be in this.  Tentative replacement for now.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Sign-ups! [3/16]
Post by: Mephansteras on November 26, 2013, 06:04:54 pm

Quote from: Sinlessmoon on November 26, 2013, 05:40:35 pm

Quote from: Mephansteras on November 26, 2013, 04:21:49 pm

Quote from: Sinlessmoon on November 26, 2013, 02:13:51 pm

Never played a forum mafia game...

IN.

As has been suggested, you may find a Beginner's Mafia a better place to start off. Paranormal, while not as difficult as some other set-ups, still has a huge number of possible roles and potential interactions that can influence the course of the game.

That said, I've had players start off with Paranormals before and been fine. My only real requirement is that you be willing to commit to the game. That means active participation in the Day phase discussion and a willingness to stick with the game even if it goes on for a month or two. Having players become inactive or drop out part-way through causes a lot of problems and can ruin the fun. If you're comfortable with that level of commitment, and want to play anyway, you're welcome to join up.

I think you're missing an actual reply here...

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Sign-ups! [1/16]
Post by: Caz on November 26, 2013, 06:20:32 pm

Quote from: Tiruin on November 26, 2013, 05:18:44 pm

Intuition tells me that I should in here, but I'm unsure given how I post. Am I understandable in general? I'd really like to 'in' here, but...recent events tell me that I'd rather not given my way of...speaking.

YES MORE TIRUIN!!!


Paranormal looks interesting. Sci-fi instead of Fantasy flavour, right? In I guess.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Sign-ups! [5/16]
Post by: Tiruin on November 26, 2013, 06:23:22 pm

>_>
But..
<_<

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Sign-ups! [5/16]
Post by: webadict on November 26, 2013, 06:34:39 pm

Quote from: Tiruin on November 26, 2013, 06:23:22 pm

>_>
But..
<_<

Go ahead and play :p

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Sign-ups! [6/16]
Post by: Mephansteras on November 26, 2013, 06:47:42 pm

For those that are interested, the rules thread (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=34959.0) has links to the previous games in it. 13, 16, and 20 are particularly notable.

Tiruin, if you're worried about your play style or communication, just play and work on it. Practice in either case is the only way to get better.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Sign-ups! [6/16]
Post by: Tiruin on November 26, 2013, 06:57:29 pm

Ok..Into the fray I go.
..Sorry for the apparent drama >_<

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Sign-ups! [3/16]
Post by: Sinlessmoon on November 26, 2013, 07:33:35 pm

Quote from: Mephansteras on November 26, 2013, 06:04:54 pm

Quote from: Sinlessmoon on November 26, 2013, 05:40:35 pm

Quote from: Mephansteras on November 26, 2013, 04:21:49 pm

Quote from: Sinlessmoon on November 26, 2013, 02:13:51 pm

Never played a forum mafia game...

IN.

As has been suggested, you may find a Beginner's Mafia a better place to start off. Paranormal, while not as difficult as some other set-ups, still has a huge number of possible roles and potential interactions that can influence the course of the game.

That said, I've had players start off with Paranormals before and been fine. My only real requirement is that you be willing to commit to the game. That means active participation in the Day phase discussion and a willingness to stick with the game even if it goes on for a month or two. Having players become inactive or drop out part-way through causes a lot of problems and can ruin the fun. If you're comfortable with that level of commitment, and want to play anyway, you're welcome to join up.

I think you're missing an actual reply here...

What in the high hell...? Damn it forum, don't eat my words!

Yeah, I've played Mafia IRL as well as occasionally playing some online versions of it. I have just never played the forum version of the game, so I have the rules and stuff down. As for time commitment, I should be fine.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Sign-ups! [8/16]
Post by: Mephansteras on November 26, 2013, 07:37:32 pm

Sometimes it gets hungry.


In any case, you're in. I strongly recommend reading some previous games. That'll get you acquainted with how we do things here, as well as how Paranormal in general tends to go. There are also some handy links in the stickied threads of this forum that should be useful.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Sign-ups! [8/16]
Post by: Sinlessmoon on November 26, 2013, 07:40:55 pm

Quote from: Mephansteras on November 26, 2013, 07:37:32 pm

Sometimes it gets hungry.


In any case, you're in. I strongly recommend reading some previous games. That'll get you acquainted with how we do things here, as well as how Paranormal in general tends to go. There are also some handy links in the stickied threads of this forum that should be useful.

I remember reading at one point through a couple mafia games from start to finish on this sub-forum, but good Idea.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Sign-ups! [8/16]
Post by: Imp on November 26, 2013, 07:49:17 pm

So I dunno what I even think about Mafia right now.

I mean, I know I'm addicted.  But I'm not even sure I like the game!

And I'm not especially 'attracted' to Paranormal yet.  Something has consistently interfered every time I've tried to sit down and read a Paranormal game - it's almost getting spooky.

You all might just need a replacement at some point, right?  If so, consider me for 'replacement of last resort' slot?  I'm a one to call when absolutely no one else answered the call, does that sound about right?

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Sign-ups! [8/16]
Post by: RangerCado on November 26, 2013, 08:24:00 pm

So your ghost busters?

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Sign-ups! [8/16]
Post by: webadict on November 26, 2013, 08:26:14 pm

If there's someone gone, and it don't look good.
Who ya gonna call? Replacement!

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Sign-ups! [8/16]
Post by: Max White on November 26, 2013, 08:29:10 pm

Quote from: RangerCado on November 26, 2013, 08:24:00 pm

So your ghost busters?

Alien busters... with killbots.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Sign-ups! [8/16]
Post by: Toaster on November 26, 2013, 10:41:31 pm

Imp, if you've got the time, why not hop right in?


(cough Wuba you too)

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Sign-ups! [8/16]
Post by: Imp on November 26, 2013, 10:53:04 pm

Quote from: Toaster on November 26, 2013, 10:41:31 pm

Imp, if you've got the time, why not hop right in?


(cough Wuba you too)

A really weiiird feeling?  Backed up by coincidences?

Course, I'm suddenly not in any mafia game at all and after two months of playing with and living with that pressure.... it's like I'm no longer on Earth or something.  I'm currently rebounding hard and starting withdrawal... or maybe that's just a reaction to the neurochemicals released by how BM43 concluded.

I'ma keep -trying- to read at least one of them finished better paranoia games (so far I've read no more than 4 posts from any single Paranormal game.... which is weird beyond words) and if the muse moves me before signups are full, I'll in.

Besides, people will drop from this one, no?  replacements are needed and replacers can have a blast.  I mean, you decided to replace into S6, and you appeared to enjoy yourself there....

Why not be a replacement?

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Sign-ups! [8/16]
Post by: TheDarkStar on November 26, 2013, 10:56:37 pm

I want to get INto this game.

(I've played Mafia before, but I haven't played Forum mafia before. I hope it's fun!)

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Sign-ups! [8/16]
Post by: RangerCado on November 26, 2013, 11:06:10 pm

Quote from: TheDarkStar on November 26, 2013, 10:56:37 pm

I want to get INto this game.

(I've played Mafia before, but I haven't played Forum mafia before. I hope it's fun!)

Hello and Welcome to the sub forum! I'd recommend trying out a Beginners Mafia (Also know as a BM) before trying out Paranormal, unless you feel confident that you can stick through the whole game. A big note is the game will likely take upwards of 2 months to finish so if you know you have plans during that time, it may not be the best idea.

Either way, I hope you have a good time over here in the Mafia sub forum!

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Sign-ups! [8/16]
Post by: Max White on November 26, 2013, 11:10:18 pm

Anybody else get the feeling the people on the replace list are actually making a cunning ploy to increase their chances of being alive in the late game when it gets the most interesting? Clever...

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Sign-ups! [8/16]
Post by: webadict on November 26, 2013, 11:18:16 pm

Quote from: Toaster on November 26, 2013, 10:41:31 pm

Imp, if you've got the time, why not hop right in?


(cough Wuba you too)

I can't do it. Not right now at least. My life is all over the place right now. Maybe once I've got it all figured out.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Sign-ups! [8/16]
Post by: Imp on November 26, 2013, 11:20:00 pm

Quote from: Max White on November 26, 2013, 11:10:18 pm

Anybody else get the feeling the people on the replace list are actually making a cunning ploy to increase their chances of being alive in the late game when it gets the most interesting? Clever...

Hello, Lunch!

There's doppelgangers in this game, right?

Roles that can just eat another player up and become that person?

Mmmm.  Vote Replacement is all I can say.  Darn aliens are doing it right in front of your eyes even,  and its not even a very exact copy now is it.

And HEY... you can't use that 'trying to survive' line with me.

For whatever reason.... so far in every game I've played I've lived to the end of play, or won before the game ended.  So nooooooo, I'm not (just!) trying to stay alive through the beginning, neener!

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Sign-ups! [8/16]
Post by: TheDarkStar on November 27, 2013, 05:14:56 pm

Quote from: RangerCado on November 26, 2013, 11:06:10 pm

Quote from: TheDarkStar on November 26, 2013, 10:56:37 pm

I want to get INto this game.

(I've played Mafia before, but I haven't played Forum mafia before. I hope it's fun!)

Hello and Welcome to the sub forum! I'd recommend trying out a Beginners Mafia (Also know as a BM) before trying out Paranormal, unless you feel confident that you can stick through the whole game. A big note is the game will likely take upwards of 2 months to finish so if you know you have plans during that time, it may not be the best idea.

Either way, I hope you have a good time over here in the Mafia sub forum!

I don't have anything big planned for the next few months besides staying home (I never go on trips in the winter), so as long as nothing catastrophic happens, I should be fine.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Sign-ups! [9/16]
Post by: Tiruin on November 27, 2013, 05:34:02 pm

Quote from: Imp on November 26, 2013, 11:20:00 pm

Vote Replacement

((It's rather 'Replacement' or something like that without the red :P))

It's a conspiracy I tell you. The replacements extend the life of a normal player.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Sign-ups! [9/16]
Post by: Imp on November 27, 2013, 08:24:33 pm

Quote from: Tiruin on November 27, 2013, 05:34:02 pm

Quote from: Imp on November 26, 2013, 11:20:00 pm

Vote Replacement

((It's rather 'Replacement' or something like that without the red :P))

It's a conspiracy I tell you. The replacements extend the life of a normal player.

Hehe.  I meant that anyone replacing into the game was clearly some sort of alien - who had consumed the player before them and taken their spot.  So clearly, that's an alien!  Lynch it!  :P

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Sign-ups! [9/16]
Post by: makeinu on November 28, 2013, 01:47:11 am

Put me in this too. BM looks to be fairly mundane, and I should be able to handle simultaneous games without trouble. Too much time on my hands lately anyway.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Sign-ups! [10/16]
Post by: Mephansteras on November 29, 2013, 02:27:36 pm

As a reminder for folks: Sign-ups end Monday morning ( ~9am Pacific time). I'll start generating the set-up and game at that point.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Sign-ups! [10/16]
Post by: RangerCado on December 01, 2013, 10:31:52 am

I should probably note before role PM's and such are sent out that I am very active on the forums, but if will mostly be Roleplaying threads. I can promise that I will post on weekdays atleast 3 posts a day here where I will take time to read through the thread with the proper mind set, rather than trying to keep up all day while trying to keep up with the other threads. Better to explain now when everything is neutral than when the game has started.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Sign-ups! [10/16]
Post by: Imp on December 01, 2013, 02:17:04 pm

Quote from: RangerCado on December 01, 2013, 10:31:52 am

I should probably note before role PM's and such are sent out that I am very active on the forums, but if will mostly be Roleplaying threads. I can promise that I will post on weekdays atleast 3 posts a day here where I will take time to read through the thread with the proper mind set, rather than trying to keep up all day while trying to keep up with the other threads. Better to explain now when everything is neutral than when the game has started.

That's awesome, Ranger!  A 'good minimum' seems to be keeping up with the thread and posting once a weekday - if you can do more than that, utterly awesome.

Also, I'm missing playing Mafia too much.  Shift me in from the replacement thread, please. 

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Sign-ups! [11/16]
Post by: RangerCado on December 01, 2013, 04:38:09 pm

It'll be good to have a game with you Imp :)

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Sign-ups! [11/16]
Post by: Imp on December 01, 2013, 04:55:51 pm

Quote from: RangerCado on December 01, 2013, 04:38:09 pm

It'll be good to have a game with you Imp :)

*panics*  Ahh, thanks!  Glad to be in a game with you too, Ranger! *hides*

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Sign-ups! [11/16]
Post by: RangerCado on December 01, 2013, 05:04:29 pm

XD

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - [SET-UP IN PROGRESS]
Post by: Mephansteras on December 02, 2013, 01:43:38 pm

Ok, sign-ups are Closed. I am now working on the set-up and the game will start at some point today.

Please note that there have been changes to the Role List. Two new varieties of Spore Spreader are possibilities as well as a new Rogue Doppelganger.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - [SET-UP IN PROGRESS]
Post by: Tiruin on December 02, 2013, 10:01:13 pm

Oh dear.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - [SET-UP IN PROGRESS]
Post by: Mephansteras on December 02, 2013, 11:48:34 pm

  The freighter Andrew’s Angel is an old ship, but a solid one. You all felt that there was something...odd about this trip. A sense of foreboding.

  One night, the ship’s engines are sabotaged and the communications equipment destroyed. To make things worse, several crewmembers go missing.

  When you discovered three doppelganger pods down in the lowest holds of the ship...well, it’s worse than you thought. You’re in a disabled ship, no way to contact the outside world, and alien monstrosities on board.

  There is only one way out of this mess. You know what to do, but can you do it well enough for any of you to get out of this alive?

---

Game has started. Day 1 will go until ~5pm Pacific Thursday

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - Trouble at Sea
Post by: Toaster on December 03, 2013, 12:02:37 am

Jim:  Arrr.  Be ye a swarthy enough pirate to see us out of this mess?


Max:  What effect do you think the new roles will have on this game?


makeinu:  I haven't played any games with you.  Please describe yourself as a player.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - Trouble at Sea
Post by: RangerCado on December 03, 2013, 12:06:11 am

Jim Groovester: Who would you least like to have allied with you as the Dopplegangers?

Toaster: What would be your preferred scientist variant as Town, and as Dopple?

Max White: What would be your least favorite Third Party role?

Persus13: Who would you prefer to have as a player you could trust of those playing as Town?

Caz: Who would you lynch of those here on reputation alone, before anything else happens?

Tiruin: What Doppleganger role would you prefer the most?

Sinlessmoon: What looks the easiest first party role for you to play and why?

TheDarkStar: What do you believe will be the biggest scum tell day 1?

makeinu: Would you rather be Town, or Dopple, and why is that so?

Imp: Who would you wish to have on your team if you were the Dopplegangers?

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - Trouble at Sea
Post by: makeinu on December 03, 2013, 12:08:43 am

Quote from: Toaster on December 03, 2013, 12:02:37 am

makeinu:  I haven't played any games with you.  Please describe yourself as a player.

I wing it. A lot. Data analysis is not my strong suit, but I have decent intuition.

Quote from: RangerCado on December 03, 2013, 12:06:11 am

makeinu: Would you rather be Town, or Dopple, and why is that so?

Who's having more fun?

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - Trouble at Sea
Post by: makeinu on December 03, 2013, 12:11:24 am

I suppose I should sneak about in the forum to get a feel for how others have played here, but that sounds too much like work....

Plus, I hate metagaming.  ;)

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - Trouble at Sea
Post by: RangerCado on December 03, 2013, 12:17:37 am

That depends on your playstyle. I'll rephrase the question: Would you rather be the informed minority working in the shadows, or the uninformed majority working for the benefit of the whole?

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - Trouble at Sea
Post by: makeinu on December 03, 2013, 12:19:21 am

I don't have a preference, actually. Though, I generally find being part of the informed minority less frustrating. I have a low tolerance for... certain behaviours.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - Trouble at Sea
Post by: Sinlessmoon on December 03, 2013, 12:19:48 am

Quote from: RangerCado on December 03, 2013, 12:06:11 am

Sinlessmoon: [/b]What looks the easiest first party role for you to play and why?

Townie, what else?  :P

In all seriousness... I think the War Vet would be an easy role to play.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - Trouble at Sea
Post by: Max White on December 03, 2013, 12:21:44 am

Quote from: Toaster on December 03, 2013, 12:02:37 am

Max:  What effect do you think the new roles will have on this game?

We have new roles? The only one I know of is the spore spreader change, what else is there?
As far as the SS, I figure they are best dealt with the same way as always, kill them in the night so they don't infect others. That is always a little tricky as it does kind of depend on either the town having somebody with a kill or the scum doing the job, but I don't see much of a change in how the game will actually play really.

Quote from: RangerCado on December 03, 2013, 12:06:11 am

Max White:[/b] What would be your least favorite Third Party role?

The one where you just need to survive. Sounds too middle of the road for me to enjoy.

Now...
Jimatomic Groovetown: Hey there! So tell me, what sort of roles do you think could have the worst effect balance wise on the game?
Sinlessmoon: Another new game, another batch of new faces, yourself included. Tell me, is it better to be active in your first game and risk messing up, or inactive and risk not learning anything?
Imp: Good to see you again! Last time your analysis of a players speech patterns ended up not working out very well, do you still see this as a valid method of scum hunting?
RangerCado: Hello there! Tell me, what sort of role are you worried about? What lurks under your bed?

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - Trouble at Sea
Post by: makeinu on December 03, 2013, 12:22:47 am

So, let's turn the question back on the interrogator:

Quote from: RangerCado on December 03, 2013, 12:17:37 am

Would you rather be the informed minority working in the shadows, or the uninformed majority working for the benefit of the whole?

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - Trouble at Sea
Post by: makeinu on December 03, 2013, 12:23:38 am

Quote from: Max White on December 03, 2013, 12:21:44 am

Another new game, another batch of new faces, yourself included. Tell me, is it better to be active in your first game and risk messing up, or inactive and risk not learning anything?

Active, of course.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - Trouble at Sea
Post by: Max White on December 03, 2013, 12:25:43 am

Even at the risk of mistakes due to inexperience?
So you value your own goals more than that of the town?

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - Trouble at Sea
Post by: makeinu on December 03, 2013, 12:28:52 am

Quote from: Max White on December 03, 2013, 12:25:43 am

Even at the risk of mistakes due to inexperience?

Yes, and never assume inexperience. You don't know how much someone has played elsewhere, or how they've played.

Quote

So you value your own goals more than that of the town?

Now you're putting words into my mouth. I don't much care for that. ;)

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - Trouble at Sea
Post by: Max White on December 03, 2013, 12:30:05 am

Do you can much for actually answering the question posed to you?

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - Trouble at Sea
Post by: makeinu on December 03, 2013, 12:37:27 am

Every game is unique. The only goals that matter are the ones that are set and relevant to that game.

In this game, my goals are the town's goals.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - Trouble at Sea
Post by: RangerCado on December 03, 2013, 12:39:10 am

Quote from: makeinu on December 03, 2013, 12:22:47 am

So, let's turn the question back on the interrogator:

Quote from: RangerCado on December 03, 2013, 12:17:37 am

Would you rather be the informed minority working in the shadows, or the uninformed majority working for the benefit of the whole?

makeinu: I prefer the uninformed majority as i have a 'good guys should always win!' mentality, and I prefer the diversity often offered by Townie role pools. I also like the mystery solving side of rooting out the enemy so to speak. ...though in paranormal there are plenty for both sides though, so that part is slightly irrelevant. (i make side comments like that a lot, make of it what you will)

Max: I'm always afraid of town night kill roles, no matter which side i'm on. It just adds to my general paranoia in the game, and it makes the night actions that much harder to undderstand. As for what lurks under my bed... a 20 questions machine, and some blue slippers.

And makeinu, you dodged the question by Max there. Even though you corrected this, why do it in the first place?

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - Trouble at Sea
Post by: makeinu on December 03, 2013, 12:44:31 am

He didn't ask a question. He made an assertion.

There's a difference.

Allow me to demonstrate:

Quote

So you value your own goals more than that of the town?

Rephrased as an assertion:

Quote

You value your own goals more than that of the town.

Read: not town.

Rephrased as a non-assertion question:

Quote

Do you value your own goals more than that of the town?

Ask a question, and I'll answer it. Make an assertion, and I'll challenge it.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - Trouble at Sea
Post by: Max White on December 03, 2013, 12:46:07 am

Did I ask a question? I didn't realize your name was Sinlessmoon.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - Trouble at Sea
Post by: RangerCado on December 03, 2013, 12:50:46 am

If your going to pose a question, specify to who Max.

And i saw it as both makeinu, as a question, and as a jab at your ego perhaps to see how you'd react. I think your over reacting to this a tiny bit as well.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - Trouble at Sea
Post by: Max White on December 03, 2013, 12:53:54 am

Well in general, RangerCado, when I post a reply without specifying a name, best to assume I'm talking to who ever posted directly above me. The point was it is interesting that makeinu replied to a question not even directed at him...

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - Trouble at Sea
Post by: makeinu on December 03, 2013, 12:54:10 am

There is that  ;D

You asked a question of Sinlessmoon I cared to answer for myself. Follow-on questions were assumed, by me and, apparently, by RC, to be directed at me.

Which, by the way, aren't I honor-bound to OMGUS at RC or something? I don't know the protocol exactly... ::)

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - Trouble at Sea
Post by: makeinu on December 03, 2013, 12:55:05 am

Quote from: Max White on December 03, 2013, 12:53:54 am

The point was it is interesting that makeinu replied to a question not even directed at him...

What can I say, I'm chatty! :P

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - Trouble at Sea
Post by: Max White on December 03, 2013, 12:56:58 am

Quote from: makeinu on December 03, 2013, 12:54:10 am

Which, by the way, aren't I honor-bound to OMGUS at RC or something? I don't know the protocol exactly... ::)

I don't know, what feels right? Do you want to OMGUS Ranger?

Anyway, tell me, what benefit is there from you answering a question directed at somebody else?

Quote from: makeinu on December 03, 2013, 12:55:05 am

What can I say, I'm chatty! :P

Awfully chatty to answer a question or two, even seek guidance on standard protocol, not so much to do your own scum hunting?

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - Trouble at Sea
Post by: makeinu on December 03, 2013, 12:59:09 am

Quote from: Max White on December 03, 2013, 12:56:58 am

Do you want to OMGUS Ranger?

Mmmmmm, no...

Quote

Anyway, tell me, what benefit is there from you answering a question directed at somebody else?

You learned something about me. Innat helpful?

Quote

Awfully chatty to answer a question or two, even seek guidance on standard protocol, not so much to do your own scum hunting?

Who says I'm not?  ;D

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - Trouble at Sea
Post by: makeinu on December 03, 2013, 01:02:40 am

For example:

Sinlessmoon was online when you asked your question, and yet, didn't answer.

Jim Groovester was also online after game start, and I don't see any posts from him, either.

How's that for a start?

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - Trouble at Sea
Post by: Max White on December 03, 2013, 01:05:04 am

Quote from: makeinu on December 03, 2013, 12:59:09 am

Stuff said

Not really.
I learnt that you may or may not be experienced, because you didn't actually tell me anything really... What did you think these vague, non-answers are meant to be helpful? Hoo boy.

Now, if you don't feel like voting for somebody, why would you ask for our input into the validity of your vote?

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - Trouble at Sea
Post by: RangerCado on December 03, 2013, 01:07:48 am

Quote from: Max White on December 03, 2013, 12:53:54 am

Well in general, RangerCado, when I post a reply without specifying a name, best to assume I'm talking to who ever posted directly above me. The point was it is interesting that makeinu replied to a question not even directed at him...

If you look, it was makeinu Max, so he wasn't wrong to answer. your explanation is void as it was a reasonable assumption due to the lack of mentioning Sin.

makeinu, that would be scummy if you only did it to OMGUS. Why even suggest that? The vote is there for a reason and i'm sure you can figure it out. Why did you think you should OMGUS me with no other evidence or a reason beyond OMGUS? Also, people can forget to log off, so Jim might even be asleep. And what is the point of your question less vote on Sin?!

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - Trouble at Sea
Post by: makeinu on December 03, 2013, 01:09:02 am

I wasn't aware I asked for an opinion on the validity of my vote. I find it curious that I answered your question, but the person it was directed at didn't.

And you've learned I'm chatty, if nothing else.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - Trouble at Sea
Post by: makeinu on December 03, 2013, 01:16:47 am

Quote from: RangerCado on December 03, 2013, 01:07:48 am

Why even suggest that? The vote is there for a reason and i'm sure you can figure it out. Why did you think you should OMGUS me with no other evidence or a reason beyond OMGUS?

Forgive me, I'm learning the game protocols here and joking as I do. It's a thing...

Quote

Also, people can forget to log off, so Jim might even be asleep. And what is the point of your question less vote on Sin?!

Clarify, please: what's the threshold for "logged off due to inactivity" here? Because I see this:

Jim Groovester: Last Active:
    Today at 01:10:50 am

Quote from: RangerCado on December 03, 2013, 12:06:11 am

Jim Groovester: Who would you least like to have allied with you as the Dopplegangers?

That's quite a bit of time. So, unfamiliar with the forum mechanics, I presume both had the chance to read and respond to your question(s), and didn't. That strikes me as suspicious. Random.org says "vote for Sinlessmoon" until further information comes forth.

Clear enough?

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - Trouble at Sea
Post by: Jim Groovester on December 03, 2013, 01:22:32 am

Quote from: makeinu on December 03, 2013, 01:16:47 am

Jim Groovester: Last Active:
    Today at 01:10:50 am

Dude, bugger off.

I don't appreciate my time or my participation being audited when the game is less than two hours old.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - Trouble at Sea
Post by: Imp on December 03, 2013, 01:23:37 am

Toaster:  How much of your Scumhunting is logic, and how much intuition?  In general would you say you are able to provide solid reasoning behind your Scumpicks?

Rangercado:  Tell us something you thought was neat about your favorite B12 Mafia game, and something you thought wasn't neat about your least favorite one?

makeinu:  Would you describe yourself as a determined Scumhunter?  (EBWOP)  Are you a jester?

Quote from: makeinu on December 03, 2013, 12:11:24 am

Plus, I hate metagaming.  ;)

What would you say you do enjoy, when it comes to how you play Mafia?

Sinlessmoon:  This is your first Mafia game on B12, yes?  Are you familiar with any of the people you are playing this game with?  Which of the previous Mafia games on this forum have you read, and how completely have you read the one you know the best?

Max White:  How closely have you read the OP and the posts made by Meph and players from before the game started?  Do you believe posts made before the game starts may be useful once the game has started?

Spoiler: Meph made these posts about the new roles: (click to show/hide)

Quote from: Mephansteras on December 02, 2013, 01:43:38 pm

Please note that there have been changes to the Role List. Two new varieties of Spore Spreader are possibilities as well as a new Rogue Doppelganger.

Quote from: Mephansteras on November 26, 2013, 12:05:45 pm

Rogue Doppelganger
    Race: Doppelganger
    Goal: Kill
    Rules: A lone Doppelganger from a previous infiltration, either seeking to protect it's new hunting area or to rejoin others of its kind. Acts as a third party with either Town Ally or Dopp Ally win condition (set at the start of the game), but does not know who the dopp team are in either case. Once during the game the Rogue Doppelganger may Night Kill another player.
    Victory: Town/Doppelgangers win
Spore Spreader
    Race: Alien
    Goal: Kill
    Rules: This alien organism has been engineered to spread by spores and take over hosts. For one reason or another, this Bioweapon has been set loose. There are two types of Spore Spreaders.
        Infester: The Infester must manually go to targets as a Night Action, infesting the target with Spores. The goal of the Infester is to have ALL surviving players at the end of the game infected with spores. The Infester need not be alive to win, and in fact when Lynched (but not killed otherwise), the Infester releases a spore cloud that randomly infects one of the non-infected players. The spores of this Alien are biological/nanomachine hybrids, and are therefore blocked by a Tech Shield. Guards may protect the target, and will be effected as normal for the guard type by the infection.
        Bloom: This Spore Spreader has a special ability that allows it to Seed the area with Alien plants at night once during the game. All players will be made aware of the plants the following morning. That day, the players MUST perform a lynch. If the SS is lynched that day, it will send forth a cloud of chemicals that will activate the plants. The plants then release spores that convert all other players into Spore Spreaders, and winning the game for the SS. If the SS is not lynched, then it will die the following night and lose.
    Tech: 0 Slots
    Victory: All players at game end Infected/The Spore Spreader must be lynched the day following the Seeding.

Jim Groovester:  If you were to pick one of these terms to most accurately describe your Mafia playstyle these days, which one would you select?  The choices are: passive, reactive, watchful, observant, hesitant, regretful, intense, determined, vengeful, avoidant, successful, focused, creative, pinpoint, maverick.  If you were to pick two that together most accurately describe your Mafia playstyle, which two do you pick?

Persus13:  Pretend you are Town and have a day inspect, and you need to use it right now (immediately after you read this question) or it will be lost.  Who do you pick to inspect and why did you pick that person, or do you pick to lose your inspect and why?

Caz:  Pretend you are Town and have a day protect (it must be placed during the day, but it will protect for the rest of this day and all of the following night, but it cannot be used on yourself), and you need to use it right now (immediately after you read this question) or it will be lost.  Who do you pick to protect and why did you pick that person, or do you pick to lose your protect and why?

Tiruin:  Pretend you have a day kill, and you need to use it right now (immediately after you read this question) or it will be lost.  Who do you pick to kill and why did you pick that person, or do you pick to lose your kill and why?

TheDarkStar:  Of the players in this game with you, who do you know the best and how well do you know that/those person(s)?  How many of the B12 Mafia games have you read so far, and how completely have you read the one you know the best?

---

---

---

RangerCado:

Quote from: RangerCado on December 03, 2013, 12:06:11 am

Imp:[/b] Who would you wish to have on your team if you were the Dopplegangers?

Tiruin and Toaster.  From other games I've played in and older games I've read, both of them are widely considered to be exceptional Scum players.  Having seen both of them be Scum, I have to say I thought they were both probably Town until I saw their role flips.  I did suspect them, but far, far less than I suspected others.

makeinu:

Quote from: makeinu on December 03, 2013, 01:02:40 am

For example:

Sinlessmoon was online when you asked your question, and yet, didn't answer.

Jim Groovester was also online after game start, and I don't see any posts from him, either.

How's that for a start?

Quote from: makeinu on December 03, 2013, 01:09:02 am

I find it curious that I answered your question, but the person it was directed at didn't.

It's been less than two hours since the game started, and less than an hour since Max asked the question which you jumped into answering.

Explain why you find it curious that Sinlessmoon hasn't already answered?  Why do you believe he's even seen the post?  Why do you believe he's not in the middle of typing an answer?  What is your goal in behaving as you have since the game started, what are you seeking to achieve by your actions and reactions?

Max White:

Quote from: Max White on December 03, 2013, 12:21:44 am

Imp: Good to see you again! Last time your analysis of a players speech patterns ended up not working out very well, do you still see this as a valid method of scum hunting?

Likewise, playing beside you again.  I think a player's speech patterns may be very telling, but that does depend greatly on the player and also on all the other circumstances.  notquitethere, the one I completely misread in the game I think you refer to, showed me a lot of things I thought were scumtells and how he responded to me asking him about them, how he reacted to others, how he didn't really answer questions, how he chased his own ideas of how to Scumhunt (interesting, but accurate?  I'm still unsure about that).  Well, he looked seriously Scummy to me, and it wasn't  just his speech patterns.

But yes, I'm not going to throw consideration of how a player uses words out.  Every player is different, every game's different, the pressures change.  I'm going to look at everything available to try and understand the motives of the people I'm playing with.  But I will remember that I can be extremely wrong in what I believe I am seeing too.  Not sure what to do about that yet, but I'm thinking about everything I can.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - Trouble at Sea
Post by: RangerCado on December 03, 2013, 01:29:19 am

makeinu: So... because someone didn't answer right away when their profile says online, their suspicious? And you based this off random.org? You realize how absurd that assumption is right? People do a lot more than just hang around the mafia game their in, whether it says their online or not. And it doesn't matter if you asked for the opinion. In mafia, everyone will throw in their two cents where they want, regardless of circumstance. Its not at all right to assume this when i myself have even stated i'll likely only post in the game 3 times a day depending on circumstance, while posting dozens elsewhere.

Imp: I liked the flavor of Webadict's magic mafia. it was silly, ridiculous, and kept things interesting for me. The last BM i played in was just too slow for me personally, leading to my less activity.

(last post on mafia for me tonight. more in the morning when i can analyze better, you ninja's)

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - Trouble at Sea
Post by: Imp on December 03, 2013, 01:36:18 am

Quote from: RangerCado on December 03, 2013, 01:29:19 am

Imp: I liked the flavor of Webadict's magic mafia. it was silly, ridiculous, and kept things interesting for me. The last BM i played in was just too slow for me personally, leading to my less activity.

Would you say you disliked serious, or that you prefer silly/rediculous to serious, or that there was just something 'just right' about the silliness and rediculousness of that magic mafia that made it stay interesting for you?

If this game turns out to be mostly serious, are you likely to be less interested in it?

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - Trouble at Sea
Post by: Sinlessmoon on December 03, 2013, 01:48:14 am

Quote from: Max White on December 03, 2013, 12:21:44 am

Sinlessmoon: Another new game, another batch of new faces, yourself included. Tell me, is it better to be active in your first game and risk messing up, or inactive and risk not learning anything?

I'd much rather be active than be inactive. Unfortunately it seems like I should be even more active though. :P

Quote from: Imp on December 03, 2013, 01:23:37 am

Sinlessmoon:  This is your first Mafia game on B12, yes?  Are you familiar with any of the people you are playing this game with?  Which of the previous Mafia games on this forum have you read, and how completely have you read the one you know the best?

Indeed it is my first mafia game. I have read several mafia games previously and I've seen several people around the forums already. I can't name any off the top of my head because Its been a couple years since I've read them.

makeinu: Why are you jumping to conclusions about all these different people? Just because I haven't responded and am active on my profile; doesn't mean that I am necessarily active on the forums, I could just be tabbed out of my browser or doing something else.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - Trouble at Sea
Post by: makeinu on December 03, 2013, 01:53:03 am

Quote from: Jim Groovester on December 03, 2013, 01:22:32 am

I don't appreciate my time or my participation being audited when the game is less than two hours old.

Touchy!  :-*

Quote from: Imp on December 03, 2013, 01:23:37 am

makeinu:  Would you describe yourself as a determined Scumhunter?

Yes, though it's not a solo effort, of course.

Quote

  (EBWOP)  Are you a jester?

*Googles EBWOP* Y'all use a lot of acronyms I've never seen...

How do I even answer that? If I say yes, then what? If I say no?

For the record, the answer is no.

Quote

Quote from: makeinu on December 03, 2013, 12:11:24 am

Plus, I hate metagaming.  ;)

What would you say you do enjoy, when it comes to how you play Mafia?

The game. Hunting the scum, as town. Hunting power roles, as scum. Really, the challenge of finding the questions and then finding the answers, and then seeing how wrong I was in the end. Usually, a lot, as it turns out.

I enjoy the puzzle.

Quote

Explain why you find it curious that Sinlessmoon hasn't already answered?  Why do you believe he's even seen the post?

Maybe curious wasn't the right word. Whatever. With nothing to go on, I choose to assume that online means that the opportunity to have read the post exists and was taken. Hence, no answer gives as much reason to, what is the term, FoS?, or vote to elicit a reaction.

As RangerCado did to me above.

Quote

Why do you believe he's not in the middle of typing an answer?

Too long passed in between.

Quote

What is your goal in behaving as you have since the game started, what are you seeking to achieve by your actions and reactions?

To get a read on people I've never met before.

RangerCado, random.org coin-flipped between the two. I wanted to place a vote to, again, elicit a reaction. Seems to have worked.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - Trouble at Sea
Post by: Jim Groovester on December 03, 2013, 01:56:34 am

Quote from: Toaster on December 03, 2013, 12:02:37 am

Jim:  Arrr.  Be ye a swarthy enough pirate to see us out of this mess?

Aye. Be ye a seaworthy enough sailor to smoothly sail to safety?

I see I'm not the only one who got a 'bad enough dude' vibe from the day opening post.

Quote from: RangerCado on December 03, 2013, 12:06:11 am

Jim Groovester: Who would you least like to have allied with you as the Dopplegangers?

I dunno. Someone bad.

Actually, I wouldn't want Tiruin or Imp as dopp partners because they post a lot and I don't really want to spend all the time it would take to read everything they would have to say in dopp chat.

Quote from: Max White on December 03, 2013, 12:21:44 am

Jimatomic Groovetown: Hey there! So tell me, what sort of roles do you think could have the worst effect balance wise on the game?

Well, dopp vig is a pretty broken role combination.

I can't think of any other role and alignment combination that strikes me as imba fucking bullshit. Usually the way games goes is the town gets good role results and win or the dopps do a good job of eliminating town roles and win.

Quote from: Imp on December 03, 2013, 01:23:37 am

Jim Groovester:  If you were to pick one of these terms to most accurately describe your Mafia playstyle these days, which one would you select?  The choices are: passive, reactive, watchful, observant, hesitant, regretful, intense, determined, vengeful, avoidant, successful, focused, creative, pinpoint, maverick.  If you were to pick two that together most accurately describe your Mafia playstyle, which two do you pick?

I would pick all of them.

I may not show it but I'm a hurricane of emotions!

If I could pick two, I would pick all of them twice, since that even more accurately expresses the turbulence of my emotional state.

This isn't the first qualitative, self-report RV question I've seen you ask and I still don't see or understand the relevance.

Quote from: Imp on December 03, 2013, 01:36:18 am

rediculous

Oh my gosh, spell it correctly. It's ridiculous, not rediculous.

Quote from: makeinu on December 03, 2013, 12:54:10 am

You asked a question of Sinlessmoon I cared to answer for myself.

But why?

You can be chatty and say whatever you want and answer other people's questions but your interjections are being observed and noted and you are being judged for them.

Quote from: makeinu on December 03, 2013, 01:16:47 am

Clarify, please: what's the threshold for "logged off due to inactivity" here? Because I see this:

It's fifteen minutes, but you shouldn't take somebody being online as a sign that they're in front of their computer and capable of answering questions in a game of mafia.

I'm pretty much always logged in, but I have this thing called school and life n' shit that takes me away from the game. I don't bother to log off when I do that.

New People, let's say you are scum and your scum buddy is being scummy. And not just a little scummy, like, really, really scummy. What do you do?

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - Trouble at Sea
Post by: makeinu on December 03, 2013, 01:59:43 am

Quote from: Jim Groovester on December 03, 2013, 01:56:34 am

New People, let's say you are scum and your scum buddy is being scummy. And not just a little scummy, like, really, really scummy. What do you do?

Been there, done that. Throw them under the bus.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - Trouble at Sea
Post by: Sinlessmoon on December 03, 2013, 02:03:09 am

Quote from: Jim Groovester on December 03, 2013, 01:56:34 am

New People, let's say you are scum and your scum buddy is being scummy. And not just a little scummy, like, really, really scummy. What do you do?

Try to distance myself as far away from that person as possible.

makeinu: You haven't answered my question.

Quote from: Sinlessmoon on December 03, 2013, 01:48:14 am

makeinu: Why are you jumping to conclusions about all these different people? Just because I haven't responded and am active on my profile; doesn't mean that I am necessarily active on the forums, I could just be tabbed out of my browser or doing something else.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - Trouble at Sea
Post by: makeinu on December 03, 2013, 02:44:40 am

Unvote

Quote from: Sinlessmoon on December 03, 2013, 02:03:09 am

makeinu: You haven't answered my question.

Quote from: Sinlessmoon on December 03, 2013, 01:48:14 am

makeinu: Why are you jumping to conclusions about all these different people?

Apologies. I was in the process of composing a longer reply to a previous post when real life intruded. Funny how that works. (<_<) ... (>_>)

 Also, two is "all these different" people?  ;)

Quote from: Jim Groovester on December 03, 2013, 01:56:34 am

Quote from: makeinu on December 03, 2013, 12:54:10 am

You asked a question of Sinlessmoon I cared to answer for myself.

But why?

You can be chatty and say whatever you want and answer other people's questions but your interjections are being observed and noted and you are being judged for them.

And do you think I'm not aware of that?

The reverse is also true. How people react, or don't, as the case may be, tells me something. Same with how they react to random accusations. It's the way I learn. I'm not a passive observer. Lurklearning doesn't work for me; I get terrible reads off people that way.

Don't forget, please, I'm not new to mafia, but I am new to bay12 mafia. I don't know any of you from Adam. I have to establish a baseline to work from. To do that, I poke the ant pile. Now I know what you do when poked unprovoked. Maybe next I'll learn what you do when poked with evidence to back it up.

Quote

Quote from: makeinu on December 03, 2013, 01:16:47 am

Clarify, please: what's the threshold for "logged off due to inactivity" here?

It's fifteen minutes,

Thank you. On the forum I've played these on before, it's ten minutes, and that's a hard offline. People lose forum posts. It's really annoying.

Quote

but you shouldn't take somebody being online as a sign that they're in front of their computer and capable of answering questions in a game of mafia.

Actually, but I do. Referring again to where I've played before, being "online" according to the system and not at least posting a "boo" post leads to suspicion that tends to prove accurate, long run. Especially true mid- to late-game, but relevant even on firstday.

Here is different. Okay. Learned, moving on.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - Trouble at Sea
Post by: Tiruin on December 03, 2013, 02:52:09 am

Ranger: Nice to see ya again :D

Quote from: RangerCado on December 03, 2013, 12:06:11 am

Tiruin: What Doppleganger role would you prefer the most?

Hmm.
*checks roles*
...
MAD SCIENTIST >:D
> Preferably with an assassin bot. Because of all the fun it would entail.

Why're ya askin' me such a subjeeeective question?

---

makeinu: Heyo! :)
Pretty new here, are you?
What's the difference between this type of Mafia than the others you've played?

Quote

Quote from: makeinu on December 03, 2013, 12:37:27 am

Every game is unique. The only goals that matter are the ones that are set and relevant to that game.

In this game, my goals are the town's goals.

...This doesn't tell much. Everyone wishes to say that 'my goal is Town goal.'
But the sentence before it also relates to any wincon you have.

Query: How do you rate scummy players? How do you rate a player for a lynch-vote?

Quote from: makeinu on December 03, 2013, 01:59:43 am

Quote from: Jim Groovester on December 03, 2013, 01:56:34 am

New People, let's say you are scum and your scum buddy is being scummy. And not just a little scummy, like, really, really scummy. What do you do?

Been there, done that. Throw them under the bus.

How so? Wouldn't that also implicate you?

...Also EBWOP = Edit By Way Of Post

---

Imp

Quote from: Imp on December 03, 2013, 01:23:37 am

Tiruin:  Pretend you have a day kill, and you need to use it right now (immediately after you read this question) or it will be lost.  Who do you pick to kill and why did you pick that person, or do you pick to lose your kill and why?

I will pick Mephansteras for making such a mean ability which is restricted by time. That, and such an ability w-"This message will self-destruct in 5 seconds."
On the other hand, I would pick Imp, as she somehow knows the specifics of my actions! Or..has some kind of ability to give the viewer a kill, whereupon an answer would go I daykill Imp! (Nope)
...I won't use my kill [ie Lose my kill and cry as I see it fade away but no regrets]. 'Tis too random. Sure, I may hit scum (alien/dopp) but bleh. I don't like using my day kills like such without analysis on people. I hate everyone equally.

Why the specific situation?

---

Jim

Quote from: Jim Groovester on December 03, 2013, 01:56:34 am

New People, let's say you are scum and your scum buddy is being scummy. And not just a little scummy, like, really, really scummy. What do you do?

I ATTACK HIM WITH FULL VOLITION.
Because my buddy is being selfish and scummy. This'll teach him rihte. :I
..And that is generally what I'd do, however the proceeds will go with scrutiny and careful prodding, not just a full out assault.
Yes I'm new!

---

PFP - busy working on literature project and was caught at a rather inappropriate time :(

PPE: makeinu: Why'd you unvote?

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - Trouble at Sea
Post by: Jim Groovester on December 03, 2013, 02:57:18 am

Quote from: makeinu on December 03, 2013, 02:44:40 am

And do you think I'm not aware of that?

The reverse is also true. How people react, or don't, as the case may be, tells me something. Same with how they react to random accusations. It's the way I learn. I'm not a passive observer. Lurklearning doesn't work for me; I get terrible reads off people that way.

Don't forget, please, I'm not new to mafia, but I am new to bay12 mafia. I don't know any of you from Adam. I have to establish a baseline to work from. To do that, I poke the ant pile. Now I know what you do when poked unprovoked. Maybe next I'll learn what you do when poked with evidence to back it up.

Okay.

So why did you answer the question directed towards Sinlessmoon?

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - Trouble at Sea
Post by: makeinu on December 03, 2013, 03:14:27 am

Quote from: Tiruin on December 03, 2013, 02:52:09 am

MAD SCIENTIST >:D
> Preferably with an assassin bot. Because of all the fun it would entail.

Awww, man! Now I want that role! :))

Quote

makeinu: Heyo! :)
Pretty new here, are you?

Ya think? :P

Quote

What's the difference between this type of Mafia than the others you've played?

Not type. People. Though...

Certain restrictions are different. No quoting mod (GM) PMs. No outside communication channels.

I'm very used to much of the dealings happening behind the scenes, and lots of faked, some good, many bad, role statements.

Quote

Quote

Quote from: makeinu on December 03, 2013, 12:37:27 am

Every game is unique. The only goals that matter are the ones that are set and relevant to that game.

In this game, my goals are the town's goals.

...This doesn't tell much. Everyone wishes to say that 'my goal is Town goal.'
But the sentence before it also relates to any wincon you have.

I thought that was clear. Wincon/goals. I'm not going to role claim, not on day one, but I am town. *shrugs*

Quote

Query: How do you rate scummy players? How do you rate a player for a lynch-vote?

Subjectively. Depends on the evidence and my gut read.

Quote

Quote from: makeinu on December 03, 2013, 01:59:43 am

Quote from: Jim Groovester on December 03, 2013, 01:56:34 am

New People, let's say you are scum and your scum buddy is being scummy. And not just a little scummy, like, really, really scummy. What do you do?

Been there, done that. Throw them under the bus.

How so? Wouldn't that also implicate you?

Not always, depending on how it's done.

The worst case of that happening to me, I was the Godfather, and one of our team went nuts in open communication, outside the thread. Another stepped in, stupidly, and tried to stop him. At that point, it was necessary to amputate. It's not hard to bus a team mate that's handing the suspicion out like Hallowe'en candy.

Remind me, if you're interested, and I'll share my guide on how to be a master scum. I can be very good at it, when I'm paying attention.

Quote

...Also EBWOP = Edit By Way Of Post

That's what the Google said too. Understand in principle, never seen.

Quote

PPE: makeinu: Why'd you unvote?

Because I got what I wanted: a read.

im Groovester: Because I wanted to.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - Trouble at Sea
Post by: makeinu on December 03, 2013, 03:17:54 am

Dammit! Lost a letter in my copy/pasta...

RangerCado, when you see this, having now answered more questions than anyone else, I'd be grateful for an Unvote.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - Trouble at Sea
Post by: Tiruin on December 03, 2013, 03:26:30 am

O_o

...So you vote for reads..? As in, you're already confirming people out or is there something I'm missing?

Quote from: makeinu on December 03, 2013, 03:17:54 am

Dammit! Lost a letter in my copy/pasta...

RangerCado, when you see this, having now answered more questions than anyone else, I'd be grateful for an Unvote.

^ Are you asking Ranger to unvote you? Why/not?

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - Trouble at Sea
Post by: makeinu on December 03, 2013, 03:39:33 am

Quote from: Tiruin on December 03, 2013, 03:26:30 am

O_o

...So you vote for reads..? As in, you're already confirming people out or is there something I'm missing?

I'm not confirming anyone anything. I wanted to see how people would react if I pointed out what I did, which was that two players had questions asked of them and had not answered despite showing as online. And I learned a great deal doing that, so I have no regrets.

Quote

Are you asking Ranger to unvote you? Why/not?

Yes, and why not ask? Either he has reason to suspect me, in which case, fine, leave the vote and make the case, or he doesn't, and should pull the vote. He implies that the vote was because I dodged a question. But I didn't dodge a question, I answered an accusation. To me, then, his vote has no more validity than mine did.

Clarification: Jim, I chose to answer the question because, though it was addressed to Sinlessmoon by name, it was also more generally addressed to new players here, of which I am one.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - Trouble at Sea
Post by: makeinu on December 03, 2013, 04:23:11 am

Hmmm, something just occurred to me. I'm playing more along the lines of the schedule I'm used to, 48 hour "days" 24 hour "nights".

Not used to the idea of "days" lasting a week. That's gonna take a little mental adjustment...

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - Trouble at Sea
Post by: Max White on December 03, 2013, 04:30:45 am

Quote from: makeinu on December 03, 2013, 01:09:02 am

I wasn't aware I asked for an opinion on the validity of my vote. I find it curious that I answered your question, but the person it was directed at didn't.

And you've learned I'm chatty, if nothing else.

Well you kinda did. You outright asked if you should vote for somebody, and for a shitty reason too.

Quote from: Imp on December 03, 2013, 01:23:37 am

Max White:  How closely have you read the OP and the posts made by Meph and players from before the game started?  Do you believe posts made before the game starts may be useful once the game has started?

Not that closely...
Toaster: To fill out my answer now, I think a dopp rogue might have an interesting effect in terms of the numbers game, because it is essentially a +1 to scum numbers, meaning the scum with a chat would need to have one less member to balance it out, or weak roles to justify an extra member. It weakens scum more than anything. The rogue them self wouldn't be of great use to their cause because without knowing who their buddies are the best you could do is play it out like a survive.
A town rogue would just be a vanilla townie who false inspects. I think the term is mason? Intrinsically an anti town role. I think there have been discussions on the pros and cons of this role claiming on day 1, not sure what the standard is though.
So essentially the rogue exists to hurt their own team as part of a balancing act. Their effect on play is more about what other roles exist because of them than their own powers and alignment.

The bloom SS, however, looks very interesting. I'm honestly not exactly sure how that will play out if they do get the chance to do a spore dance, because it is in both town and scums best interest to not see them lynched. I guess it depends on the state of the game at the time?

Quote from: makeinu on December 03, 2013, 01:53:03 am

Yes, though it's not a solo effort, of course.

Would you please explain what you mean by this statement?

Quote from: Jim Groovester on December 03, 2013, 01:56:34 am

I dunno. Someone bad.

Actually, I wouldn't want Tiruin or Imp as dopp partners because they post a lot and I don't really want to spend all the time it would take to read everything they would have to say in dopp chat.

Would you bother to read everything if one of them were your scum partner?

Also now I'm curious, why somebody bad?

Quote from: makeinu on December 03, 2013, 03:17:54 am

RangerCado, when you see this, having now answered more questions than anyone else, I'd be grateful for an Unvote.

What would you say about a player that is showing some very clear signs of caving under a single pressure vote?

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - Trouble at Sea
Post by: makeinu on December 03, 2013, 05:04:10 am

Quote from: Max White on December 03, 2013, 04:30:45 am

Quote from: makeinu on December 03, 2013, 01:09:02 am

I wasn't aware I asked for an opinion on the validity of my vote. I find it curious that I answered your question, but the person it was directed at didn't.

And you've learned I'm chatty, if nothing else.

Well you kinda did. You outright asked if you should vote for somebody, and for a shitty reason too.

Oh, the OMGUS comment...

Bad joke.  ::)

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - Trouble at Sea
Post by: Imp on December 03, 2013, 05:28:31 am

Makeinu:

Quote from: makeinu on December 03, 2013, 04:23:11 am

Hmmm, something just occurred to me. I'm playing more along the lines of the schedule I'm used to, 48 hour "days" 24 hour "nights".

Not used to the idea of "days" lasting a week. That's gonna take a little mental adjustment...

Where'd you get a week from?  Right now, unless people extend, this Day ends here:

Quote from: Mephansteras on December 02, 2013, 11:48:34 pm

Day 1 will go until ~5pm Pacific Thursday

More generally in this game, days go for this long:

Quote from: Mephansteras on November 26, 2013, 12:05:45 pm

Days will last for 72 hours or until everyone has voted (if there is a long period of inactivity after everyone votes I'll end the day to keep things moving).


Extensions: ... Extensions will extend the day by 24 hours. No more then two extensions will be granted on any given game day.

Quote from: makeinu on December 03, 2013, 03:39:33 am

I chose to answer the question because, though it was addressed to Sinlessmoon by name, it was also more generally addressed to new players here, of which I am one.

There's been a few other questions that look equally addressable to any new player.  Why'd you only pick the one you did to answer?  What would you have done if no one reacted to your volunteering to have answered 'someone else's question'?

Quote from: makeinu on December 03, 2013, 03:39:33 am

which was that two players had questions asked of them and had not answered despite showing as online.

In your experience, is answering very rapidly a Town-tell (meaning that the person is much more likely to be Town than Scum), and/or is answering 'slowly' a Scum-tell?  What's a reasonable amount of time for a player to answer questions?

How important are asking questions for your Scumhunting style?  I note that as of this point, you've made quite a few posts.  Some of them are pure 'volunteering information', and/or adding additional information to already answered questions without waiting to see if anyone would ask you for further information.

Some of them are answering others' questions.

Then I considered what information you are actively seeking, specifically how you use questions.  You've directly asked 14 questions so far this game, and only two of them appear to have any possible scumhunting value, though those two also appear more focused towards defense and self-explanation than Scumhunting.

Spoiler: review of all questions asked by makeinu sofar this game (click to show/hide)

The first is rhetorical

Quote from: makeinu on December 03, 2013, 12:08:43 am

Quote from: RangerCado on December 03, 2013, 12:06:11 am

makeinu: Would you rather be Town, or Dopple, and why is that so?

Who's having more fun?

The second a rebound question:

Quote from: makeinu on December 03, 2013, 12:22:47 am

So, let's turn the question back on the interrogator:

Quote from: RangerCado on December 03, 2013, 12:17:37 am

Would you rather be the informed minority working in the shadows, or the uninformed majority working for the benefit of the whole?

A third a... newbie question? (it doesn't feel like an 'I do not know what to do' question to me):

Quote from: makeinu on December 03, 2013, 12:54:10 am

Which, by the way, aren't I honor-bound to OMGUS at RC or something? I don't know the protocol exactly...

That one I'll answer, far as I'm concerned you're only honor bound to chase your Wincon - and you should also be honor bound to try not to harm the game/its players (like... a limit on seriously nasty personal attacks, limits on bullying, ect)

Your RC acronym, I don't know it unless you mean 'RangerCado', but the only reason for an OMGUS I can see is when you really intend to say what the acronym stands for - that someone sucks.  Your play is... bizarre so far to me.

A fourth(sarcastic?) and fifth question(sarcastic?):

Quote from: makeinu on December 03, 2013, 12:59:09 am

Quote from: Max White on December 03, 2013, 12:56:58 am

Anyway, tell me, what benefit is there from you answering a question directed at somebody else?

You learned something about me. Innat helpful?

Quote

Awfully chatty to answer a question or two, even seek guidance on standard protocol, not so much to do your own scum hunting?

Who says I'm not? 

A sixth, defensive and reactionary:

Quote from: makeinu on December 03, 2013, 01:02:40 am

How's that for a start?

A seventh, a totally apropriate 'I am new here' question:

Quote from: makeinu on December 03, 2013, 01:16:47 am

Clarify, please: what's the threshold for "logged off due to inactivity" here?

The eighth, defensive:

Quote from: makeinu on December 03, 2013, 01:16:47 am

Clear enough?

The ninth, confused/defensive (again, does not feel 'newbie'):

Quote from: makeinu on December 03, 2013, 01:53:03 am

Quote

Are you a jester?

How do I even answer that? If I say yes, then what? If I say no?

To answer you though, the 'then what' is I and others try to interpret the whole of your behavior, including your answer.

The tenth, defensive/explanitory:

Quote from: makeinu on December 03, 2013, 01:53:03 am

Hence, no answer gives as much reason to, what is the term, FoS?,

The eleventh, hard to classify, some mix of defensive/deflective/possibly Scumhunting:

Quote from: makeinu on December 03, 2013, 02:44:40 am

Quote from: Sinlessmoon on December 03, 2013, 01:48:14 am

makeinu: Why are you jumping to conclusions about all these different people?

two is "all these different" people? 

The twelveth, defensive/deflective/possibly scumhunting:

Quote from: makeinu on December 03, 2013, 02:44:40 am

Quote from: Jim Groovester on December 03, 2013, 01:56:34 am

Quote from: makeinu on December 03, 2013, 12:54:10 am

You asked a question of Sinlessmoon I cared to answer for myself.

But why?
You can be chatty and say whatever you want and answer other people's questions but your interjections are being observed and noted and you are being judged for them.

And do you think I'm not aware of that?

The thirteenth, sarcastic/playful:

Quote from: makeinu on December 03, 2013, 03:14:27 am

Quote

makeinu: Heyo!
Pretty new here, are you?

Ya think?

The fourteenth, highly defensive/explanitory:

Quote from: makeinu on December 03, 2013, 03:39:33 am

Quote

Are you asking Ranger to unvote you? Why/not?

Yes, and why not ask?

So, would you please explain what you are doing, why you are doing it, and why you are using the method you are to achieve your goal?  If your goal or method needs to be secret, it's probably better for you to directly state that instead of providing a lie.  However, you're using a very direct 'attention drawing' series of interactions and voluntary 'talk to me!  focus on me!  interact with me! please stop voting for me!' posts since the game started - so neither your method or goal is secret, right?

---

Additionally, you've twice talked about the validity of your and others' votes.  I spot where Max introduced the concept 'validity of your vote':

Quote from: Max White on December 03, 2013, 01:05:04 am

Now, if you don't feel like voting for somebody, why would you ask for our input into the validity of your vote?

But that came following your reaction to his challenge:

Quote from: makeinu on December 03, 2013, 12:59:09 am

Quote

Awfully chatty to answer a question or two, even seek guidance on standard protocol, not so much to do your own scum hunting?

Who says I'm not?  ;D

Quote from: makeinu on December 03, 2013, 01:02:40 am

For example:

Sinlessmoon was online when you asked your question, and yet, didn't answer.

Jim Groovester was also online after game start, and I don't see any posts from him, either.

How's that for a start?

So you look like you're responding to 'pressure' to a great extent - you're almost throwing yourself in the direction that others point.  Max asks if you're going to scumhunt - 'yes' you say!  You already are, 'here, I vote someone for this reason, how's that for my scumhunting?'  That's weird.  Can you explain why you are doing this?

But back to the 'validity of your vote thing -

Quote from: makeinu on December 03, 2013, 01:09:02 am

I wasn't aware I asked for an opinion on the validity of my vote.

and talking about RangerCado's vote on you -

Quote from: makeinu on December 03, 2013, 03:39:33 am

his vote has no more validity than mine did.

This seriously bugs me.

You appear to have placed your vote because of pressure that you were not Scumhunting.  You then react to a challenge about the validity of your vote, but further it a short time later by stating that your vote isn't valid (and the vote on you isn't either unless there's more to back it up than what was said).

So.... First off, what's wrong with your vote to make it invalid?  I understand that, for Town at least, a player's words, questions, thoughts, and especially vote are their most potent weapons (maybe this version has a few roles that are even stronger... but 'Town's greatest weapon' is the vote/lynch, right?)  Second, what makes anyone's vote valid or invalid?  Thirdly, why would you even place a vote that you consider invalid?  Fourthly, why do you appear to be trying to get and hold everyone's attention - to me the sum total of your actions and interactions since start of play have been 'notice me!'.  But you are not 'doing' anything I can understand as Scumhunting with this attention - so what drives you to get our attention like this?

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - Trouble at Sea
Post by: Imp on December 03, 2013, 05:47:48 am

Jim Groovester:

Quote from: Jim Groovester on December 03, 2013, 01:56:34 am

This isn't the first qualitative, self-report RV question I've seen you ask and I still don't see or understand the relevance.

Hrm.  So when you asked this question:

Quote from: Jim Groovester on December 03, 2013, 01:56:34 am

New People, let's say you are scum and your scum buddy is being scummy. And not just a little scummy, like, really, really scummy. What do you do?

You didn't name names.  However, if willing to answer, a person must then do a qualitative, self-report assessment of themself, to decide if they are in the category you are questioning or not.

But you have claimed that you thought general questions were useless, because they lack the focus of their pointed counterparts.  Like a teacher asking a class a question, versus that teacher asking a specific student a question.  And that you don't think someone asking a general question cares about the answers that might be given, so not answering was a win for asker and non-answerer both!

So.  Why did you ask this question of who you asked it of?

---

---

Tiruin:

Quote from: Tiruin on December 03, 2013, 02:52:09 am

Imp

Quote from: Imp on December 03, 2013, 01:23:37 am

Tiruin:  Pretend you have a day kill, and you need to use it right now (immediately after you read this question) or it will be lost.  Who do you pick to kill and why did you pick that person, or do you pick to lose your kill and why?

I will pick Mephansteras for making such a mean ability which is restricted by time. That, and such an ability w-"This message will self-destruct in 5 seconds."
On the other hand, I would pick Imp, as she somehow knows the specifics of my actions! Or..has some kind of ability to give the viewer a kill, whereupon an answer would go I daykill Imp! (Nope)
...I won't use my kill [ie Lose my kill and cry as I see it fade away but no regrets]. 'Tis too random. Sure, I may hit scum (alien/dopp) but bleh. I don't like using my day kills like such without analysis on people. I hate everyone equally.

Why the specific situation?

Two reasons.  Refer back to my post you quote, the order of questions, two questions previous to yours.  Refer to the OP, the order of players listed.  I wanted to interact with everyone.  Those who had already posted in play, I considered their words and spoke to them from interaction, not true RVS.  THose of you who had not yet posted in play were fully RVSed, based on 'have I interacted with you in Mafia before' and 'if not, do I think you've ever played Mafia on B12 board before'.

The people I RVS'd I pulled from OP order, and Persus's question through stream of consciousness created Caz's question, which similarly created your question.

However, I'm just starting to really 'see' how random you may be (I heard your claims of this before, I just didn't really see it).  Interesting.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - Trouble at Sea
Post by: Caz on December 03, 2013, 07:59:54 am

Quote from: RangerCado on December 03, 2013, 12:06:11 am

Caz: Who would you lynch of those here on reputation alone, before anything else happens?

Tiruin.

...Nah, I kid.  :P

Quote from: makeinu on December 03, 2013, 01:02:40 am

Sinlessmoon was online when you asked your question, and yet, didn't answer.

Meh, too much meta. It's easy to pop on and peruse Other Games while not having the time or patience to compose a mafpost. Just because we're playing doesn't mean we have to be scrutinized on our whole forum activities, I hope.

Quote from: Imp on December 03, 2013, 01:23:37 am

Caz:  Pretend you are Town and have a day protect (it must be placed during the day, but it will protect for the rest of this day and all of the following night, but it cannot be used on yourself), and you need to use it right now (immediately after you read this question) or it will be lost.  Who do you pick to protect and why did you pick that person, or do you pick to lose your protect and why?

Roll dice, pick random. No point doing anything else since not everyone has posted yet.

What're you hoping to learn with all these scenarios?

Oh, found answer.

Quote from: Imp on December 03, 2013, 05:47:48 am

Two reasons.  Refer back to my post you quote, the order of questions, two questions previous to yours.  Refer to the OP, the order of players listed.  I wanted to interact with everyone.  Those who had already posted in play, I considered their words and spoke to them from interaction, not true RVS.  THose of you who had not yet posted in play were fully RVSed, based on 'have I interacted with you in Mafia before' and 'if not, do I think you've ever played Mafia on B12 board before'.

The people I RVS'd I pulled from OP order, and Persus's question through stream of consciousness created Caz's question, which similarly created your question.

However, I'm just starting to really 'see' how random you may be (I heard your claims of this before, I just didn't really see it).  Interesting.

That's really interesting.


Persus13: How are you feeling about the game? Have you played Paranormal before?

TheDarkStar: Hello person I have not seen before. Do you have a strategy for this game?

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - Trouble at Sea
Post by: Persus13 on December 03, 2013, 08:02:24 am

And I just got up and the thread is 4 pages longer. Uh-oh.

Max: Why are you tunneling someone D1 for something that isn't really suspicious again?

I'll answer more questions later.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - Trouble at Sea
Post by: Tiruin on December 03, 2013, 08:05:09 am

Quickpost
Persus

Quote from: Persus13 on December 03, 2013, 08:02:24 am

And I just got up and the thread is 4 pages longer. Uh-oh.

Max: Why are you tunneling someone D1 for something that isn't really suspicious again?

I'll answer more questions later.

How is he tunneling and how is that something not that really suspicious?


Caz

Quote from: Caz on December 03, 2013, 07:59:54 am

Quote from: RangerCado on December 03, 2013, 12:06:11 am

Caz: Who would you lynch of those here on reputation alone, before anything else happens?

Tiruin.

...Nah, I kid.  :P

Soooo...what's yer answer to Ranger there?
Also why me. :I

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - Trouble at Sea
Post by: Caz on December 03, 2013, 08:13:18 am

Quote from: Persus13 on December 03, 2013, 08:02:24 am

And I just got up and the thread is 4 pages longer. Uh-oh.

It happens so quickly -.- I end up keeping a tab open and checking it nervously every few hours. Walls of text while sleepy = ohgodno.

Quote from: Tiruin on December 03, 2013, 08:05:09 am

Soooo...what's yer answer to Ranger there?
Also why me. :I

Because you are my Nemesis, obviously. Didn't you get the memo? :(

In seriousness, I probably wouldn't lynch anyone on reputation alone. It's just not gentlewomanly. Pip pip.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - Trouble at Sea
Post by: makeinu on December 03, 2013, 09:31:28 am

Quote from: Imp on December 03, 2013, 05:28:31 am

Where'd you get [days laasting] a week from?

From ... over there! *points*

More generally, that's a good question. (Don't skim the rules, makeinu!)

Quote

Why'd you only pick the one you did to answer?

Because it was specific, and I wanted to answer it.

Quote

What would you have done if no one reacted to your volunteering to have answered 'someone else's question'?

Nothing.

Quote

In your experience, is answering very rapidly a Town-tell (meaning that the person is much more likely to be Town than Scum), and/or is answering 'slowly' a Scum-tell?

Yes, in general. More specifically, not engaging in-thread early on is a scum-tell. That may not be true here, but I won't know that until I probe.

Quote

How important are asking questions for your Scumhunting style?

High on the list, since you ask.

Quote

only two of them appear to have any possible scumhunting value

You read too much into questions. Have you never heard of a "rhetorical question"?

That's a rhetorical question, by the way. You don't have to answer it.

Quote

So, would you please explain what you are doing, why you are doing it, and why you are using the method you are to achieve your goal?

I... thought I had? I am new here, you're all strangers to me. My approach to quickly learning strangers (on the internet, anyway) is to run into the room like a 5-year-old hopped on sugar with a box of crayons and go to town. It's supposed to be bizarre. How people react to the unpredictable tells a lot about how they react in general.

Quote

So.... First off, what's wrong with your vote to make it invalid?

My vote on Sin, and bringing attention on Jim, was exploratory, as explained above.

Quote

Second, what makes anyone's vote valid or invalid?

I know RangerCado's vote to be invalid one, because I'm not a dopp, and two, because it was placed on the suspicion I was avoiding a question, which I covered already.

Aaaand with another night's inadequate sleep under my belt, I'll shut up. :|

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - Trouble at Sea
Post by: Tiruin on December 03, 2013, 09:41:39 am

D: Sleep more you! Prioritize RL. This isn't a 48/24 setup.

---

Quote from: makeinu on December 03, 2013, 09:31:28 am

Quote

Second, what makes anyone's vote valid or invalid?

I know RangerCado's vote to be invalid one, because I'm not a dopp, and two, because it was placed on the suspicion I was avoiding a question, which I covered already.

Aaaand with another night's inadequate sleep under my belt, I'll shut up. :|

How is it invalid when he's..voting you?
And...Why do you add info that is blank and keep on pushing it? Pertaining to the bolded part.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - Trouble at Sea
Post by: Toaster on December 03, 2013, 10:06:40 am

Ranger:

Quote from: RangerCado on December 03, 2013, 12:06:11 am

Toaster: What would be your preferred scientist variant as Town, and as Dopple?

Town:  Intelligence.  I like the advanced tracking devices.

Dopp:  Cutting edge for the body double or Military for the bot.  Extra kills for scum are always good.

Since you're questioning everyone, how will you cope with the loss of focus your questions have?


makeinu:

Quote from: makeinu on December 03, 2013, 12:08:43 am

Quote from: Toaster on December 03, 2013, 12:02:37 am

makeinu:  I haven't played any games with you.  Please describe yourself as a player.

I wing it. A lot. Data analysis is not my strong suit, but I have decent intuition.

That's fair.  How do you plan to convince people what your gut says?

Quote from: makeinu on December 03, 2013, 12:28:52 am

Yes, and never assume inexperience. You don't know how much someone has played elsewhere, or how they've played.

How much have you played in the past?


Max:

Quote from: Max White on December 03, 2013, 12:21:44 am

Quote from: Toaster on December 03, 2013, 12:02:37 am

Max:  What effect do you think the new roles will have on this game?

We have new roles? The only one I know of is the spore spreader change, what else is there?
As far as the SS, I figure they are best dealt with the same way as always, kill them in the night so they don't infect others. That is always a little tricky as it does kind of depend on either the town having somebody with a kill or the scum doing the job, but I don't see much of a change in how the game will actually play really.

The other is the Rouge Dopp, which has a 50/50 shot of being either a town or dopp ally.  Okay, you saw that.  Interesting speculation- I wouldn't have thought of treating a Town-Ally as simply a Kook role.  If I roll that, I will have to treat it as such.

For the record, I am 100% for claiming Kook status first post, and extend this to regular miller in any game I play.


Imp:

Quote from: Imp on December 03, 2013, 01:23:37 am

Toaster:  How much of your Scumhunting is logic, and how much intuition?  In general would you say you are able to provide solid reasoning behind your Scumpicks?

It leans heavily toward logic.  Lately as my time for Mafia has been shrinking, intuition has been creeping up a bit- too bad it's still not very trustworthy.

If it's not solidly backed up, it's not a good scumpick.  Typically I do so, though see note above.

Why did you cast a wide net and question everyone instead of focusing your attention?


Jim:

Quote from: Jim Groovester on December 03, 2013, 01:56:34 am

Quote from: Toaster on December 03, 2013, 12:02:37 am

Jim:  Arrr.  Be ye a swarthy enough pirate to see us out of this mess?

Aye. Be ye a seaworthy enough sailor to smoothly sail to safety?

I'm going to avast this ship until we sail over some land lubbers.

How do you deal with a game with this high a percentage of newblood?

Quote from: Jim Groovester on December 03, 2013, 01:56:34 am

Quote from: Imp on December 03, 2013, 01:36:18 am

rediculous

Oh my gosh, spell it correctly. It's ridiculous, not rediculous.

It bugs me too, but since when are you an English Enforcer?

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - Trouble at Sea
Post by: makeinu on December 03, 2013, 10:44:00 am

Quote from: Tiruin on December 03, 2013, 09:41:39 am

D: Sleep more you! Prioritize RL. This isn't a 48/24 setup.

Thank you for the concern. This isn't what keeps me up, insomnia does, from other, real life, concerns. This just entertains me while I can't sleep.

Quote

Second, what makes anyone's vote valid or invalid?

How is it invalid when he's..voting you?

Semantics *sighs* I will not quote the dictionary. I will not quote the dictionary.

It's not based in logic or facts. It's based on a supposition.

---

Toaster:

I don't know yet. I never do, not until it comes up.

And quite a bit, but only in one venue.

---

Hypothetical question, for everyone:

Presume I invited you to join me in the forum where I normally play. You don't know any of the players. You're unfamiliar with the forum's rules of behaviour. You're unfamiliar with the norms for the game.

How do you react/adapt? How do you, quickly, get your feet under you and get moving in the game? In short, how do you play the short game to learn the long game?

Again, hypothetical. No one has to answer. I'd just like for you to consider my actions in that light.

And yeah, bizarre is a learning tool for me.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - Trouble at Sea
Post by: Toaster on December 03, 2013, 10:48:19 am

Personally, I'd read several old games then proceed with my tried and true style adjusted a bit to account for local procedure.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - Trouble at Sea
Post by: RangerCado on December 03, 2013, 11:22:07 am

Imp:

Quote from: Imp on December 03, 2013, 01:36:18 am

Quote from: RangerCado on December 03, 2013, 01:29:19 am

Imp: I liked the flavor of Webadict's magic mafia. it was silly, ridiculous, and kept things interesting for me. The last BM i played in was just too slow for me personally, leading to my less activity.

Would you say you disliked serious, or that you prefer silly/ridiculous to serious, or that there was just something 'just right' about the silliness and rediculousness of that magic mafia that made it stay interesting for you?

If this game turns out to be mostly serious, are you likely to be less interested in it?

Probably won't lose interest. And it was just the right amount of silly while still being serious as well. Probably the funniest part was when I accidently made a black hole and sucked in three people with it when i was trying to summon Kirby I think?. All in flavor of course, but it was still funny.

---

Tiruin:

Quote from: Tiruin on December 03, 2013, 02:52:09 am

Ranger: Nice to see ya again :D

Quote from: RangerCado on December 03, 2013, 12:06:11 am

Tiruin: What Doppleganger role would you prefer the most?

Hmm.
*checks roles*
...
MAD SCIENTIST >:D
> Preferably with an assassin bot. Because of all the fun it would entail.

Why're ya askin' me such a subjeeeective question?

Trying out something that may only work in Paranormal, not sure yet. What about Town role? Third party?

---

Quote from: Max White on December 03, 2013, 04:30:45 am

Quote from: makeinu on December 03, 2013, 03:17:54 am

RangerCado, when you see this, having now answered more questions than anyone else, I'd be grateful for an Unvote.

What would you say about a player that is showing some very clear signs of caving under a single pressure vote?

Okay, this is down right silly. My answer to you question Max, is push more as I try to dig through the silliness of makeinu who is clearly not getting whats going on right now.

makeinu:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Quote from: makeinu on December 03, 2013, 09:31:28 am

Quote from: Imp on December 03, 2013, 05:28:31 am

Where'd you get [days laasting] a week from?

From ... over there! *points*

More generally, that's a good question. (Don't skim the rules, makeinu!)

Quote

Why'd you only pick the one you did to answer?

Because it was specific, and I wanted to answer it.

Quote

What would you have done if no one reacted to your volunteering to have answered 'someone else's question'?

Nothing.

Quote

In your experience, is answering very rapidly a Town-tell (meaning that the person is much more likely to be Town than Scum), and/or is answering 'slowly' a Scum-tell?

Yes, in general. More specifically, not engaging in-thread early on is a scum-tell. That may not be true here, but I won't know that until I probe.

Quote

only two of them appear to have any possible scumhunting value

You read too much into questions. Have you never heard of a "rhetorical question"?

That's a rhetorical question, by the way. You don't have to answer it.

Quote

So, would you please explain what you are doing, why you are doing it, and why you are using the method you are to achieve your goal?

I... thought I had? I am new here, you're all strangers to me. My approach to quickly learning strangers (on the internet, anyway) is to run into the room like a 5-year-old hopped on sugar with a box of crayons and go to town. It's supposed to be bizarre. How people react to the unpredictable tells a lot about how they react in general.

Quote

So.... First off, what's wrong with your vote to make it invalid?

My vote on Sin, and bringing attention on Jim, was exploratory, as explained above.

Quote

Second, what makes anyone's vote valid or invalid?

I know RangerCado's vote to be invalid one, because I'm not a dopp, and two, because it was placed on the suspicion I was avoiding a question, which I covered already.

Aaaand with another night's inadequate sleep under my belt, I'll shut up. :|

Okay, lets look at this mess one thing at a time.

Quote

Quote from: Imp on December 03, 2013, 05:28:31 am

Where'd you get [days laasting] a week from?

From ... over there! *points*

More generally, that's a good question. (Don't skim the rules, makeinu!)

Okay, I can't really find fault with this here because i make these kind of side comments as well.

Quote

Quote

Why'd you only pick the one you did to answer?

Because it was specific, and I wanted to answer it.

Okay... but is that the only reason? As Tiruin has pointed out, you seem to be jumping for attention. Why?

Quote

Quote

What would you have done if no one reacted to your volunteering to have answered 'someone else's question'?

Nothing.

...That, is not a good answer. If no one reacted in anyway to it, you should have pushed about it. Asking why the questioner didn't respond to it would be a good start to get some pressure up.

Quote

Quote

In your experience, is answering very rapidly a Town-tell (meaning that the person is much more likely to be Town than Scum), and/or is answering 'slowly' a Scum-tell?

Yes, in general. More specifically, not engaging in-thread early on is a scum-tell. That may not be true here, but I won't know that until I probe.

I should point out that we have people here over atleast 4 timezones, and 2-3 continents in this game alone. Not everyone will be awake, or even available with school and RL getting in the way. Thats also a big reason why I can only post on average 3-4 times during the day here, because the amount of reading into others would kill my grades! Maybe you should have played out a beginners first to get the basic understanding of how to play on Bay12.

Quote

Quote

only two of them appear to have any possible scumhunting value

You read too much into questions. Have you never heard of a "rhetorical question"?

That's a rhetorical question, by the way. You don't have to answer it.

Why are you asking rhetorical questions then, in the early stage of a game about asking meaningful and investigative questions?

Quote

Quote

So, would you please explain what you are doing, why you are doing it, and why you are using the method you are to achieve your goal?

I... thought I had? I am new here, you're all strangers to me. My approach to quickly learning strangers (on the internet, anyway) is to run into the room like a 5-year-old hopped on sugar with a box of crayons and go to town. It's supposed to be bizarre. How people react to the unpredictable tells a lot about how they react in general.

So your plan to understand how we react is to cause unneeded chaos? This seems incredibly stupid and is not helping anybody get anywhere, except to find more reasons to lynch you.

Quote

Quote

So.... First off, what's wrong with your vote to make it invalid?

My vote on Sin, and bringing attention on Jim, was exploratory, as explained above.

Known as an RVS vote (Random voting stage vote), but with reasons that should have been fleshed out in a BM. You really should have learned more about how to play on this forum first.

Quote

Quote

Second, what makes anyone's vote valid or invalid?

I know RangerCado's vote to be invalid one, because I'm not a dopp, and two, because it was placed on the suspicion I was avoiding a question, which I covered already.

You have to say your not a dopp or else you get lynched, so no reason to keep saying it like that. And yes, that was my starting point for the vote. Since then, you've given me no reason to move it beyond trying to convince me that its invalid. EVERY vote has a purpose and a reason for being there. So until I find a good reason to move it, it stays.

If you want to know why i'm suspicious of you, heres the list:
-You dodged a question that was also a slight accusation, even if the accusation wasn't directed at you.
-Your flailing a lot right now, not something most mafia players do.
-Your answers to all of these questions don't sit well with me, regardless of how many you've answered. That doesn't make you town.
-Your asking me to unvote you because you think my vote is invalid because of its starting point, ignoring how i've been pursuing it.

---

Toaster:

Quote from: Toaster on December 03, 2013, 10:06:40 am

Ranger:

Quote from: RangerCado on December 03, 2013, 12:06:11 am

Toaster: What would be your preferred scientist variant as Town, and as Dopple?

Town:  Intelligence.  I like the advanced tracking devices.

Dopp:  Cutting edge for the body double or Military for the bot.  Extra kills for scum are always good.

Since you're questioning everyone, how will you cope with the loss of focus your questions have?

Loss of focus? How so? If your asking why i'm not pursuing everyone after asking everyone a question, its because it would be too much pressure on me to keep 20 different lines of thought in my head. I ask them as an opener to try and find something to go off early. Right now, i've found makeinu to be suspicious and am pursuing it, hence possible loss of focus. Also, what would be your criteria for tracking someone?

---

PPE: More posts... dang it!

makeinu:

Quote from: makeinu on December 03, 2013, 10:44:00 am

Quote from: Tiruin on December 03, 2013, 09:41:39 am

D: Sleep more you! Prioritize RL. This isn't a 48/24 setup.

Thank you for the concern. This isn't what keeps me up, insomnia does, from other, real life, concerns. This just entertains me while I can't sleep.

Quote

Second, what makes anyone's vote valid or invalid?

How is it invalid when he's..voting you?

Semantics *sighs* I will not quote the dictionary. I will not quote the dictionary.

It's not based in logic or facts. It's based on a supposition.

Yes, it is. Most day 1 votes are started with a small thing you find wrong, or just a random person picked from the masses in your first wave of questions. You've given me no reason to get rid of it, and its certainly making you react. Do you understand the concept of a pressure vote? Because if your overreacting this much from a single vote, it doesn't bode well for later in the game. Also, and answer to your hypothetical question:

Quote from: Toaster on December 03, 2013, 10:48:19 am

Personally, I'd read several old games then proceed with my tried and true style adjusted a bit to account for local procedure.

My answer is the same as Toaster's, and is actually how I learned to play on forums, by reading the old games. I even thought of trying another mafia game place, and i did the same thing to see if the rules were different. I stuck with bay12 because I'm on it a lot anyway.

And now have school, so thats all I can do for now. I'll post my second post of the day for mafia afterwards, when I can actually keep up and investigate.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - Trouble at Sea
Post by: Caz on December 03, 2013, 11:36:12 am

Quote from: makeinu on December 03, 2013, 10:44:00 am

Hypothetical question, for everyone:

Presume I invited you to join me in the forum where I normally play. You don't know any of the players. You're unfamiliar with the forum's rules of behaviour. You're unfamiliar with the norms for the game.

How do you react/adapt? How do you, quickly, get your feet under you and get moving in the game? In short, how do you play the short game to learn the long game

No idea, I'm still attempting that. You're wrong if you're considering us all to be well-acquainted veterans here.

I'd say what you're doing currently is pretty fine.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - Trouble at Sea
Post by: makeinu on December 03, 2013, 11:57:30 am

Caz, I make no assumptions as to the experience level of any player here. I've skimmed over a few mafia threads here so far, to get an advance read on how they go here, but reading from the outside can only tell you so much. Some names have come up more than others, but nothing substitutes for a first-person read on a player.

Aside: I have enjoyed reading some of the more notable games here. Given me some ideas to take away for my own games.

Quote from: RangerCado on December 03, 2013, 11:22:07 am

...That, is not a good answer. If no one reacted in anyway to it, you should have pushed about it. Asking why the questioner didn't respond to it would be a good start to get some pressure up.

Why is that not a good answer? I'm sorry, I don't understand. If no one reacted to it, then that tells something.

Quote

I should point out that we have people here over atleast 4 timezones, and 2-3 continents in this game alone. Not everyone will be awake, or even available with school and RL getting in the way.

Same as where I've played before. You'll note, I made no comment at any who weren't online at the time the game started.

Quote

Why are you asking rhetorical questions then, in the early stage of a game about asking meaningful and investigative questions?

Because rhetorical questions are simultaneously conversational and revealing.

Quote

So your plan to understand how we react is to cause unneeded chaos? This seems incredibly stupid and is not helping anybody get anywhere, except to find more reasons to lynch you.

Correction: it's not helping anyone else get anywhere. It gives me a baseline to work from.

For instance. Assume, for the moment, I survive until tomorrow. Further assume that overnight, I come up with strong evidence of another player's scum role. Having now made baseless accusations, I can compare and contrast the reaction to that against a factual accusation.

Quote

Known as an RVS vote (Random voting stage vote), but with reasons that should have been fleshed out in a BM. You really should have learned more about how to play on this forum first.

BM: Beginner's Mafia? Or is there an alternate read for that acronym? Honest question.

Playing mafia on a different forum only requires knowledge of the forum-specific rules. The game itself plays the same.

Quote

If you want to know why i'm suspicious of you, heres the list:
-You dodged a question that was also a slight accusation, even if the accusation wasn't directed at you.
-Your flailing a lot right now, not something most mafia players do.
-Your answers to all of these questions don't sit well with me, regardless of how many you've answered. That doesn't make you town.
-Your asking me to unvote you because you think my vote is invalid because of its starting point, ignoring how i've been pursuing it.

All fair and valid reasons. I withdraw my request. Vote as your conscience and intuition see fit.

Quote

Yes, it is. Most day 1 votes are started with a small thing you find wrong, or just a random person picked from the masses in your first wave of questions. You've given me no reason to get rid of it, and its certainly making you react. Do you understand the concept of a pressure vote? Because if your overreacting this much from a single vote, it doesn't bode well for later in the game.

 ;D

I do hope to survive day one. This proves quite fun so far. :D

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - Trouble at Sea
Post by: Mephansteras on December 03, 2013, 01:03:55 pm

The Whiteboard
makeinu: RangerCado
Max White: Persus13

---

Day ends ~5pm Pacific Thursday

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - Trouble at Sea
Post by: Jim Groovester on December 03, 2013, 02:52:07 pm

Quote from: Max White on December 03, 2013, 04:30:45 am

Would you bother to read everything if one of them were your scum partner?

I might skim it to see if anything useful shows up or there's something that I actually need to respond to.

Quote from: Max White on December 03, 2013, 04:30:45 am

Also now I'm curious, why somebody bad?

Because they might do something dumb like send in their night action without consulting the rest of the team or play so poorly in the day game that I get incriminated somehow.

I would bus a player like that, but who knows, the guy might be so awful he screws it up somehow.

I haven't really seen anybody actually play that badly in a while, but it's happened.

Quote from: Imp on December 03, 2013, 05:47:48 am

So.  Why did you ask this question of who you asked it of?

It's a gauge of experience and skill. I'd say it's a better gauge than asking the new people 'hey bro how experienced r u'.

Experienced players will answer one way, inexperienced players will answer another. I'm not going to say which way because I don't want to spoil the answer.

This will affect how I perceive and treat these players, so it's not a useless fluff question like the words I would use to describe my play style.

Quote from: Toaster on December 03, 2013, 10:06:40 am

How do you deal with a game with this high a percentage of newblood?

Play regularly, just without the knowledge of their meta.

I.E., if I see them do something I consider scummy I'll press them about it, same as usual.

It seemed to work well enough in Supernatural 6, and I was wrong about all my suspects, as per usual.

Quote from: Toaster on December 03, 2013, 10:06:40 am

It bugs me too, but since when are you an English Enforcer?

It's because I'm OLD and CRANKY.

Also, considering all the attention to detail Imp puts in her posts, she seems ripe for a ribbing when she messes up.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - Trouble at Sea
Post by: Max White on December 03, 2013, 03:40:53 pm

makeinu

Quote from: Max White on December 03, 2013, 04:30:45 am

Quote from: makeinu on December 03, 2013, 01:53:03 am

Yes, though it's not a solo effort, of course.

Would you please explain what you mean by this statement?

This question still stands.

Quote from: Persus13 on December 03, 2013, 08:02:24 am

Max: Why are you tunneling someone D1 for something that isn't really suspicious again?

What makes you think I am tunneling?
But more so, seems other people are very invested in makeinu, but you are casually slipping in that he "isn't really suspicious", without the trouble of addressing any of those people. So tell me, what do you make of the current case against him?

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - Trouble at Sea
Post by: zombie urist on December 03, 2013, 05:31:18 pm

Sorry Meph can't be a replace anymore busy for a while.  :(

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - Trouble at Sea
Post by: Persus13 on December 03, 2013, 05:46:38 pm

Back from school and can deal with stuff.

Quote from: RangerCado on December 03, 2013, 12:06:11 am

Persus13: Who would you prefer to have as a player you could trust of those playing as Town?

I'd say Tiruin (because I wouldn't have to worry about whether or not she's scum).

Quote from: Imp on December 03, 2013, 01:23:37 am

Persus13:  Pretend you are Town and have a day inspect, and you need to use it right now (immediately after you read this question) or it will be lost.  Who do you pick to inspect and why did you pick that person, or do you pick to lose your inspect and why?

I'd inspect makeinu. I'm not sure what he is and I'd like to know. What type of inspect?

Quote from: Jim Groovester on December 03, 2013, 01:56:34 am

New People, let's say you are scum and your scum buddy is being scummy. And not just a little scummy, like, really, really scummy. What do you do?

Ignore it and continue doing my own thing.

Quote from: Caz on December 03, 2013, 07:59:54 am

Persus13: How are you feeling about the game? Have you played Paranormal before?

Fairly confident that I'll do well. Especially after D1 which isn't my strong suit. And no, Supernatural 6 was my first non-BM game.

Quote from: Tiruin on December 03, 2013, 08:05:09 am

Persus

Quote from: Persus13 on December 03, 2013, 08:02:24 am

And I just got up and the thread is 4 pages longer. Uh-oh.

Max: Why are you tunneling someone D1 for something that isn't really suspicious again?

I'll answer more questions later.

How is he tunneling and how is that something not that really suspicious?

Him talking to Makeinu seemed very similar to him talking to NQT last Supernatural. I say tunneling because Max hasn't really talked to anyone else besides when RangerCado got involved. At the moment, everyone is a nulltell to me at the moment. I answer the not suspicious thing in my post to Max.

Unrelated Question:
Can you link to Think028's Lurkertracker for this? I don't know how to find it?

Quote from: makeinu on December 03, 2013, 09:31:28 am

Quote

How important are asking questions for your Scumhunting style?

High on the list, since you ask.

Quote

only two of them appear to have any possible scumhunting value

You read too much into questions. Have you never heard of a "rhetorical question"?

Irony

Quote from: makeinu on December 03, 2013, 11:57:30 am

For instance. Assume, for the moment, I survive until tomorrow. Further assume that overnight, I come up with strong evidence of another player's scum role. Having now made baseless accusations, I can compare and contrast the reaction to that against a factual accusation.

You have one person voting you. Why do you assume you are the one who is going to hang today?

Quote from: makeinu on December 03, 2013, 11:57:30 am

Playing mafia on a different forum only requires knowledge of the forum-specific rules. The game itself plays the same.

This isn't quite true. Different forums also have different cultures, different scum-tells and different ways of scum hunting. Have you looked at the Mafia Theory thread and was there anything like that on your forum?

Quote from: Max White on December 03, 2013, 03:40:53 pm

Quote from: Persus13 on December 03, 2013, 08:02:24 am

Max: Why are you tunneling someone D1 for something that isn't really suspicious again?

What makes you think I am tunneling?
But more so, seems other people are very invested in makeinu, but you are casually slipping in that he "isn't really suspicious", without the trouble of addressing any of those people. So tell me, what do you make of the current case against him?

Its just that when I was reading the section where you and makeinu where talking seemed a lot like your D1 argument with NQT last game (where you were scum). It seemed suspicious at the time and I wanted a response by the time I got back from school (which I left for about 10 seconds after I posted). I think makeinu seems pretty eager to talk, something I don't find to be a bad thing, especially since he(?) claimed to think the game was shorter. I also think the problem is that makeinu came from a different mafia forum with a different culture. He seems slightly suspicious, but not much.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - Trouble at Sea
Post by: Max White on December 03, 2013, 05:53:29 pm

Yea I was talking to him a lot, because we were both online and both somewhat active players apparently. That is just what happens.

So now that you have replied to Tiruin...

Quote from: Tiruin on December 03, 2013, 08:05:09 am

How is he tunneling and how is that something not that really suspicious?

Interesting that you kind of jumped in for me here.
Is building the case against Makeinu and knocking down anybody that says otherwise more important than letting people answer for themselves? Somebody felt the need to vote for me, and you would prefer to go after them than see how I react?

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - Trouble at Sea
Post by: Imp on December 03, 2013, 05:55:16 pm

Quote from: Persus13 on December 03, 2013, 05:46:38 pm

Unrelated Question:
Can you link to Think028's Lurkertracker for this? I don't know how to find it?

PFP.

Direct link to tracker:  http://think0028.com/lurkertracker.html
Direct link to tracker set up to track this game, based on who most recently posted:  http://think0028.com/lurkertracker.py?sort=post&postStart=0&url=http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=133676.msg4806797

Note that it does not show anyone who hasn't posted since the game started (currently this is only TheDarkStar)

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - Trouble at Sea
Post by: Persus13 on December 03, 2013, 05:58:51 pm

Thanks Imp.

Quote from: Max White on December 03, 2013, 05:53:29 pm

Yea I was talking to him a lot, because we were both online and both somewhat active players apparently. That is just what happens.

So now that you have replied to Tiruin...

Quote from: Tiruin on December 03, 2013, 08:05:09 am

How is he tunneling and how is that something not that really suspicious?

Interesting that you kind of jumped in for me here.
Is building the case against Makeinu and knocking down anybody that says otherwise more important than letting people answer for themselves? Somebody felt the need to vote for me, and you would prefer to go after them than see how I react?

Hmmm, interesting.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - Trouble at Sea
Post by: Tiruin on December 03, 2013, 06:48:40 pm

PFP

Max

Quote from: Max White on December 03, 2013, 05:53:29 pm

Quote from: Tiruin on December 03, 2013, 08:05:09 am

How is he tunneling and how is that something not that really suspicious?

Interesting that you kind of jumped in for me here.
Is building the case against Makeinu and knocking down anybody that says otherwise more important than letting people answer for themselves? Somebody felt the need to vote for me, and you would prefer to go after them than see how I react?

I have no idea if this is directed to me despite the statement (not in quote) above my quote so...

How am I knocking down anyone when the whole thing there is in an interrogative question? I'm curious about Persus, and you somehow take that as me defending you?
Why do you think I'm defending you?

Also according to Persus, I'm curious. Why're you talking to what seems to be only a few people today?

---

Persus

Quote from: Persus13 on December 03, 2013, 05:46:38 pm

Quote from: Tiruin on December 03, 2013, 08:05:09 am

Persus

Quote from: Persus13 on December 03, 2013, 08:02:24 am

And I just got up and the thread is 4 pages longer. Uh-oh.

Max: Why are you tunneling someone D1 for something that isn't really suspicious again?

I'll answer more questions later.

How is he tunneling and how is that something not that really suspicious?

Him talking to Makeinu seemed very similar to him talking to NQT last Supernatural. I say tunneling because Max hasn't really talked to anyone else besides when RangerCado got involved. At the moment, everyone is a nulltell to me at the moment. I answer the not suspicious thing in my post to Max.

Unrelated Question:
Can you link to Think028's Lurkertracker for this? I don't know how to find it?

...Which means how talking to NQT? Define in qualitative details.
..And tunneling is a term used to describe very narrow vision for an extended amount of time. This is only the first day. However that is an intersteting pint.

THIS IS THINK'S LURKERTRACKER. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=86473.0)

Quote

To make a direct link to the Lurker Tracker for a specific game, just do

http://think0028.com/lurkertracker.py?url=(yourthreadsurl) (http://think0028.com/lurkertracker.py?url=(yourthreadsurl))

Where the parenthesis dictates what the FIRST PAGE OF THE NEEDED THREAD SHOULD BE. THE PAGE URL WHEN YOU CLICK ON THE THREAD NAME FROM THE BOARD.
:D

*looks back*

Aww Imp got it.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - Trouble at Sea
Post by: Mephansteras on December 03, 2013, 06:55:19 pm

I added the lurker tracker link to the OP.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - Trouble at Sea
Post by: Max White on December 03, 2013, 06:58:51 pm

Quote from: Tiruin on December 03, 2013, 06:48:40 pm

How am I knocking down anyone when the whole thing there is in an interrogative question? I'm curious about Persus, and you somehow take that as me defending you?
Why do you think I'm defending you?

Also according to Persus, I'm curious. Why're you talking to what seems to be only a few people today?

You were very quick to jump in on a question directed at me. Persus wanted to know why I was tunneling, essentially accusing me of the act, and rather than letting me speak for myself you interjected on that. That is a form of defending another player. Further more you didn't actually answer my question. Why did you choose to cut in rather than wait for me to talk for myself? Is my response not also interesting to you? Why not wait and see what I had to say? You can be interested in Persus' false accusations, but that doesn't justify not caring about how others might react.

Also, I'm talking to who ever has said something that sparks some interest. Right now that includes you, and a few others.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - Trouble at Sea
Post by: Tiruin on December 03, 2013, 07:12:55 pm

...?

I asked Persus that because I wanted to see how he saw you. Anything wrong with redirecting the question back at him? When you say 'very quick', I do believe you mean 'You saw this and made a question out of it' or whatever?

I like how you see it as me defending you though, I mean, its like I spoke in your behalf

Quote

Persus wanted to know why I was tunneling, essentially accusing me of the act, and rather than letting me speak for myself you interjected on that

other than what I actually did. Do you see any of my statements defending you?

Quote

You can be interested in Persus' false accusations, but that doesn't justify not caring about how others might react.

Do you not see me as caring about your answer? Did my query, in anyway, intervene in that process of question and answer?

Quote

Also, I'm talking to who ever has said something that sparks some interest. Right now that includes you, and a few others.

...I don't get where this leads. It's not like we'll be spouting words for the sake of increasing post count.  ::)
Doesn't everyone spark interest? Don't you have several initial questions for everyone else?

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - Trouble at Sea
Post by: Max White on December 03, 2013, 07:31:56 pm

Quote from: Tiruin on December 03, 2013, 07:12:55 pm

...?

I asked Persus that because I wanted to see how he saw you. Anything wrong with redirecting the question back at him? When you say 'very quick', I do believe you mean 'You saw this and made a question out of it' or whatever?

I like how you see it as me defending you though, I mean, its like I spoke in your behalf

Quote

Persus wanted to know why I was tunneling, essentially accusing me of the act, and rather than letting me speak for myself you interjected on that

other than what I actually did. Do you see any of my statements defending you?

Quote

You can be interested in Persus' false accusations, but that doesn't justify not caring about how others might react.

Do you not see me as caring about your answer? Did my query, in anyway, intervene in that process of question and answer?

Because it kind of is like you spoke on my behalf, and I'm not a fan.
Persus asked me a question that was laced with accusation, so you asked him a question that had the potential to negate his accusations before I could even reply. That has the potential to intervene in that process of question and answer. I see this statement:

Quote from: Tiruin on December 03, 2013, 08:05:09 am

How is he [Max White] tunneling and how is that something not that really suspicious?

as at attempt at defending me, or rather more accurately defending what one might consider to be a case on Makeinu (If you, like Persus thought I was actually after Makeinu). The first person that actually says he doesn't think Makeinu is suspicious and suddenly questioning them is more important than just waiting for me to answer for myself. Sure you could have sat and watched to see what I said and then questioned Persus, but you apparently didn't think it was that important to see what I had to say.
So tell me Tiruin, what do you think of Makeinu?

Quote

...I don't get where this leads. It's not like we'll be spouting words for the sake of increasing post count.  ::)
Doesn't everyone spark interest? Don't you have several initial questions for everyone else?

Not even single sentence is going to be the thing to see scum lynched. You need to pick your battles. I'm interested in everybody, but rather than lashing out at every single post it is better to focus on things you think might go somewhere.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - Trouble at Sea
Post by: RangerCado on December 03, 2013, 07:41:14 pm

makeinu: You said if no one reacted, you would do nothing. That implies that you believed that if no reaction was produced then the information was useless. And as stated below, the game will not be played the same because of the different preset cultures and play styles. The styles evolved around the forum and so will be that much different as you've likely seen so far. For example, the massive use of acronyms. Do you believe you will get better at understanding the general playstyles here, or will you continue to play as you have elsewhere? Also, do you have a current suspect or someone your trying to pursue?

Jim: Yeah yeah, your cranky and hate getting pestered, but you haven't dished at many questions from what i've seen so far, and have been playing a reactive game. Any reason why? I can understand if your busy but i'd like some indication of actually scum hunting.

Persus13: Is there a reason you would want Tiruin as a player? All you've said is because of the way I worded the question, you wouldn't need to worry about alignment. Why would you want her as someone you could trust through the game?

Max: Take this as defending if you wish, but Tiruin does things like that all the time. I've done it myself once or twice and it can work out to get a reaction. I'm going to meta here, but do you think that doing what she did has no merit for her scum hunting, and if so why? If its just because it could seem like defending, then thats fine, but often people have more than one reason with these things.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - Trouble at Sea
Post by: Tiruin on December 03, 2013, 07:43:57 pm

Quote

Persus asked me a question that was laced with accusation, so you asked him a question that had the potential to negate his accusations before I could even reply.

wat.
How is it even negating quite anything when you can ask anything in response to his question.

Quote

How is he [Max] tunneling and how is that something not that really suspicious?

This is my statement. How does that even stop anything from happening at all?

Quote

Sure you could have sat and watched to see what I said and then questioned Persus, but you apparently didn't think it was that important to see what I had to say.

Apparently, you think I disregard your answer to him but you still see my query to him as some sort of 'defense' to you, huh. Like I don't want him attacking you, oh goodness, why must someone attack my dear Max? D:
...I really don't get what you're doing here.

Quote

So tell me Tiruin, what do you think of Makeinu?

From my brief reads of him and his quick-shot posts, I believe he's a newbie. More leaning town than scum given his..erratic thoughts, and the only scummy thing registering in my mind is him constantly pushing 'I'm town I'm not a dopp I'm town'.

Quote

Not even single sentence is going to be the thing to see scum lynched. You need to pick your battles. I'm interested in everybody, but rather than lashing out at every single post it is better to focus on things you think might go somewhere.

...And people are somewhat lashing at every single post? It's pretty obvious not eve[ry] single sentence equals a scum lynch, but the essence of them is what I'm talking about.

And yes I'm picking my battles. Somehow you decided to battle with me as I'm battling my battles. So bring it on.

PPE: I didn't read that because PFP

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - Trouble at Sea
Post by: Max White on December 03, 2013, 07:51:19 pm

Quote from: RangerCado on December 03, 2013, 07:41:14 pm

Max: [/b]Take this as defending if you wish, but Tiruin does things like that all the time. I've done it myself once or twice and it can work out to get a reaction. I'm going to meta here, but do you think that doing what she did has no merit for her scum hunting, and if so why? If its just because it could seem like defending, then thats fine, but often people have more than one reason with these things.

There might be merit, Tiruin might be scum, or might be town or something else. I don't see what is wrong with a little pressure though.

Quote from: Tiruin on December 03, 2013, 07:43:57 pm

Quotes slowly getting longer

If Persus had answered you and said "Oh look, turns out I was wrong and Max isn't actually tunneling like I thought! How silly of me!", that pretty well negates the question all together, does it not?

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - Trouble at Sea
Post by: Tiruin on December 03, 2013, 08:13:07 pm

Quote from: Max White on December 03, 2013, 07:51:19 pm

Quote from: Tiruin on December 03, 2013, 07:43:57 pm

Quotes slowly getting longer

If Persus had answered you and said "Oh look, turns out I was wrong and Max isn't actually tunneling like I thought! How silly of me!", that pretty well negates the question all together, does it not?

Oh. Hm. It pretty well does, yes! Shocking.
But yet it continues the process of communication, does it not? That's another whole story if he answered it as such, isn't that true?
I mean, what? You get all worked up about answering that specific detail, and then accuse me of 'defending' you--and I point out the wrong use of terminology in that case. You then vote me, in reference to what? A sentence with makeinu in it, then you don't respond to what I said about it.

I've to ask if you are concerned about who you're battling with.

Next: To elaborate

Quote from: Max White on December 03, 2013, 07:31:56 pm

Persus asked me a question that was laced with accusation, so you asked him a question that had the potential to negate his accusations before I could even reply. That has the potential to intervene in that process of question and answer. I see this statement:

Quote from: Tiruin on December 03, 2013, 08:05:09 am

How is he [Max White] tunneling and how is that something not that really suspicious?

as at attempt at defending me, or rather more accurately defending what one might consider to be a case on Makeinu (If you, like Persus thought I was actually after Makeinu). The first person that actually says he doesn't think Makeinu is suspicious and suddenly questioning them is more important than just waiting for me to answer for myself. Sure you could have sat and watched to see what I said and then questioned Persus, but you apparently didn't think it was that important to see what I had to say.
So tell me Tiruin, what do you think of Makeinu?

What I asked Persus has no relevance to makeinu..on which I've to read up later given how you're connecting it somehow, but I'm curious.
Why use the term 'defending' when you do know its context and its use? I mean you can obviously continue questioning and give suspicion in either case to both the one who asked, and the one who 'responded to intervene' in your viewpoint.

On that note, I am amused how you target my query, and not target Persus' answer to my query at all despite its relevance.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - Trouble at Sea
Post by: Max White on December 03, 2013, 08:22:19 pm

Does it continue communication? How so? How does the conversation go on after that?

And yes, I'm questioning people who I think are turning out a little suspicious, yourself among them. Do you have a problem with that? I'll target who ever I like.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - Trouble at Sea
Post by: Tiruin on December 03, 2013, 08:26:33 pm

...You really can't see what communication is, or you're deliberately prodding me with this assumed ignorance. Max

It continues communication given that you can still talk to him about it. It closes no lines nor does it make any possible conversation become a full stop! How does that kind of scenario even stop anyone from asking him anything? Yes it tells 'I'm wrong and oops!' but it also gives way to other questions along that line! Why did he ask that in the first place? Did he not check back to make sure? Why is he backing off...

All that!

In your hypothetical scenario, you can bring up what he was stating, and then shove it in his face on why he did what he did and query on what he assumed you were doing.

Quote

And yes, I'm questioning people who I think are turning out a little suspicious, yourself among them. Do you have a problem with that? I'll target who ever I like.

I've a problem with how you're stating all this. You're only targeting specific people and then homing in on them, without being precise and to the point.

I mean given how what we're discussing has a direct tangent to Persus, I see nothing as of recent note on you poking on him.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - Trouble at Sea
Post by: Imp on December 03, 2013, 08:26:59 pm

Toaster:

Quote from: Toaster on December 03, 2013, 10:06:40 am

Why did you cast a wide net and question everyone instead of focusing your attention?

I think in wholes.  How people respond to me and interact with each other will focus my attention for me.  When people seem Scummy they sure do get my attention.  When not, I think I should talk to everyone as best as I can.  There's only 11 of us.  I've learned how to count to 10 other people in a Mafia game; ten isn't actually 'a lot' to me anymore.

I'm also worried that if I just look at X people, then I'm going to pick the Scummiest of that subset as the highest probability of their being Scum.  That happened to me in the now finished BM42.  I looked for two Scum, picked out two super Scummy players D1 and believed I'd solved the whole thing.  Town did win in the end, but neither of my two 'obv-Scum' picks were Scum.  So I'm watching everyone as best I can.

Quote from: Toaster on December 03, 2013, 10:06:40 am

I'm going to avast this ship until we sail over some land lubbers.

The way you use avast there - what does avast mean to you?

makeinu:

Quote from: makeinu on December 03, 2013, 11:57:30 am

Quote from: RangerCado on December 03, 2013, 11:22:07 am

...That, is not a good answer. If no one reacted in anyway to it, you should have pushed about it. Asking why the questioner didn't respond to it would be a good start to get some pressure up.

If no one reacted to it, then that tells something.

Explain what you would get from no one reacting to it, what a complete lack of reaction would mean to you.  I'm trying to understand how you think and specifically what your motivations are.  I know what you've said about that - what I am trying to understand is how your behavior and choices support or fail to support your claim.

Quote from: makeinu on December 03, 2013, 11:57:30 am

Further assume that overnight, I come up with strong evidence of another player's scum role. Having now made baseless accusations, I can compare and contrast the reaction to that against a factual accusation.

This statement looks glaringly wrong to me.  You are saying that you made 'baseless' accusations in order to possibly compare reactions to 'factual' accusations?

For one thing, only one player knows if any claim that's made is 'fact' or not - and that's the player that claimed it.  To everyone else, that 'factual' accusation is possibly false, possibly true.  You have talked about needing a team to Scumhunt - why are you making what you directly say are 'baseless' accusations, why have you talked about your 'invalid' vote - given that you seem aware that you need to work with others in order to convince people that a lynch is needed.

Why do you think, given you speak of 'invalid' and 'baseless' accusations and votes from yourself, that we will believe you later, should you make any sort of claim?  This seems like you're making up what you say more or less completely on the spur of the moment.  That's not Town.  I'm going to ask again - are you trying to get yourself lynched?

Persus13:

Quote from: Persus13 on December 03, 2013, 05:46:38 pm

Quote from: Imp on December 03, 2013, 01:23:37 am

Persus13:  Pretend you are Town and have a day inspect, and you need to use it right now (immediately after you read this question) or it will be lost.  Who do you pick to inspect and why did you pick that person, or do you pick to lose your inspect and why?

I'd inspect makeinu. I'm not sure what he is and I'd like to know. What type of inspect?

Purposely left unspecified, actually.  I'm not as read up on Paranormal roles as I am on Supernatural and still can't seem to get properly into reading the old games and even the full roles list of this one.  Every time I try I either get interrupted or I totally lose focus (super rare for me).  So I'm not even sure what types of inspects there are here.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - Trouble at Sea
Post by: Max White on December 03, 2013, 08:38:12 pm

Quote from: Tiruin on December 03, 2013, 08:26:33 pm

...You really can't see what communication is, or you're deliberately prodding me with this assumed ignorance. Max

It continues communication given that you can still talk to him about it. It closes no lines nor does it make any possible conversation become a full stop! How does that kind of scenario even stop anyone from asking him anything? Yes it tells 'I'm wrong and oops!' but it also gives way to other questions along that line! Why did he ask that in the first place? Did he not check back to make sure? Why is he backing off...

All that!

In your hypothetical scenario, you can bring up what he was stating, and then shove it in his face on why he did what he did and query on what he assumed you were doing.

Quote

And yes, I'm questioning people who I think are turning out a little suspicious, yourself among them. Do you have a problem with that? I'll target who ever I like.

I've a problem with how you're stating all this. You're only targeting specific people and then homing in on them, without being precise and to the point.

I mean given how what we're discussing has a direct tangent to Persus, I see nothing as of recent note on you poking on him.

Persus isn't throwing out OMGUS votes now, is he? Why do you want to move the conversation to him so badly?

The point still remains that we ask each other questions with the hope of provoking some sort of response. When you interject on these questions, as you did, it may give scum a chance to modify their answers in a way that better suits their needs. You give them information to work from. As far as asking 'Why did you ask that in the first place', I don't see why you couldn't have waited until I gave a reply and saw what I had to say. You seem to have interrupted another players scum hunting.

Anyway, did you shove it in his face?

Sure, you can keep talking, but things would have changed and the initial line of questioning might not be effective anymore. You would have messed up somebodies scum hunting.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - Trouble at Sea
Post by: Persus13 on December 03, 2013, 08:46:30 pm

I don't see a problem. I gave an accusation, and Tiruin wanted context. I don't have a problem with that, as if I hadn't been leaving for school right after that post, I would have provided more.

Quote from: Tiruin on December 03, 2013, 06:48:40 pm

Persus

Quote from: Persus13 on December 03, 2013, 05:46:38 pm

Quote from: Tiruin on December 03, 2013, 08:05:09 am

Persus

Quote from: Persus13 on December 03, 2013, 08:02:24 am

And I just got up and the thread is 4 pages longer. Uh-oh.

Max: Why are you tunneling someone D1 for something that isn't really suspicious again?

I'll answer more questions later.

How is he tunneling and how is that something not that really suspicious?

Him talking to Makeinu seemed very similar to him talking to NQT last Supernatural. I say tunneling because Max hasn't really talked to anyone else besides when RangerCado got involved. At the moment, everyone is a nulltell to me at the moment. I answer the not suspicious thing in my post to Max.

...Which means how talking to NQT? Define in qualitative details.
..And tunneling is a term used to describe very narrow vision for an extended amount of time. This is only the first day. However that is an interesting point.

Well in Supernatural he seemed to be exclusively attacking NQT and continually finding new things that were scummy about NQT. I'm fairly newby, so I called that tunneling in that game, so I was just bringing that over. Pounding on is likely a better term.

Quote from: RangerCado on December 03, 2013, 07:41:14 pm

Persus13: Is there a reason you would want Tiruin as a player? All you've said is because of the way I worded the question, you wouldn't need to worry about alignment. Why would you want her as someone you could trust through the game?

She's hard to read. If I wanted a teammate, I'd go probably go with Jim or Toaster. Both are veterans and seem good at this, scum or town.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - Trouble at Sea
Post by: makeinu on December 03, 2013, 09:27:47 pm

Um, hi. Confession time.

So, it turns out I may have been a little manic yesterday, due to an unforeseen drug interaction. And by may have, I mean was completely. And by a little, I mean a lot.

Apologies all around. It exacerbated my natural tendencies toward paranoia and strange behaviour.

Quote from: Max White on December 03, 2013, 03:40:53 pm

makeinu

Quote from: Max White on December 03, 2013, 04:30:45 am

Quote from: makeinu on December 03, 2013, 01:53:03 am

Yes, though it's not a solo effort, of course.

Would you please explain what you mean by this statement?

This question still stands.

Scum hunting is a team effort, even if the town doesn't know who's on their team. I thought that pretty obvious, thus the skip over on the answer. I hope that clarifies.

Quote from: Persus13 on December 03, 2013, 05:46:38 pm

You have one person voting you. Why do you assume you are the one who is going to hang today?

Please, read the note above re: paranoia. Past games, acting as I have has  generally ensured my D1 lynch or N1 kill.

Quote from: Persus13 on December 03, 2013, 05:46:38 pm

Quote from: makeinu on December 03, 2013, 11:57:30 am

Playing mafia on a different forum only requires knowledge of the forum-specific rules. The game itself plays the same.

This isn't quite true. Different forums also have different cultures, different scum-tells and different ways of scum hunting. Have you looked at the Mafia Theory thread and was there anything like that on your forum?

In depth, and no. I'm not sure that I agree that different forums have different scum-tells, but I'll accept the possibility that I'm mistaken.

<sarcasm>

Quote from: Tiruin on December 03, 2013, 06:48:40 pm

However that is an intersteting pint.

I like a pint now and then, but I have never heard of an intersteting one. </sarcasm>

Sorry, couldn't resist. :P

Quote from: RangerCado on December 03, 2013, 07:41:14 pm

makeinu: You said if no one reacted, you would do nothing. That implies that you believed that if no reaction was produced then the information was useless. And as stated below, the game will not be played the same because of the different preset cultures and play styles. The styles evolved around the forum and so will be that much different as you've likely seen so far. For example, the massive use of acronyms. Do you believe you will get better at understanding the general playstyles here, or will you continue to play as you have elsewhere? Also, do you have a current suspect or someone your trying to pursue?

No reaction can be informative, in that it is itself a reaction, so I wouldn't say useless. It's, again, about establishing a baseline. In 20/20 hindsight, subtlety could have worked just as well. And, yes, I'll adapt to the style here, though that will likely only serve to temper, not utterly change, my own style. I yam whats I yam, after all.

And, at the moment, no suspect. Just some intuitiony brainitches.

Those are not real words, merely wordish. Sort of.

Quote from: Imp on December 03, 2013, 08:26:59 pm

makeinu:

Quote from: makeinu on December 03, 2013, 11:57:30 am

Quote from: RangerCado on December 03, 2013, 11:22:07 am

...That, is not a good answer. If no one reacted in anyway to it, you should have pushed about it. Asking why the questioner didn't respond to it would be a good start to get some pressure up.

If no one reacted to it, then that tells something.

Explain what you would get from no one reacting to it, what a complete lack of reaction would mean to you.  I'm trying to understand how you think and specifically what your motivations are.  I know what you've said about that - what I am trying to understand is how your behavior and choices support or fail to support your claim.

I don't know that I entirely buy the whole right-brain/left-brain dichotomy thing whatever, but starting from that, I tend to play more a right-brain game. I have to have reactions to things to understand people. So, I give them something to react to. Thus, no reaction is, itself, a tell; it means that person is not easily rattled. Given that, if, later, I say something that does rattle them, then either I've just caught them at a bad moment (it happens), or I've struck a nerve.

Quote

Quote from: makeinu on December 03, 2013, 11:57:30 am

Further assume that overnight, I come up with strong evidence of another player's scum role. Having now made baseless accusations, I can compare and contrast the reaction to that against a factual accusation.

This statement looks glaringly wrong to me.  You are saying that you made 'baseless' accusations in order to possibly compare reactions to 'factual' accusations?

For one thing, only one player knows if any claim that's made is 'fact' or not - and that's the player that claimed it.

True, but even that is not necessarily a guaranteed thing. Sometimes, what we "know" to be true is deliberately false, due to whatever factors, paranoid investigations, power redirects, stuff like that. Not saying those exist in this game, but my inclination is to assume the craziest and work against that.

Quote

I'm going to ask again - are you trying to get yourself lynched?

No.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - Trouble at Sea
Post by: Max White on December 03, 2013, 10:12:32 pm

Quote from: makeinu on December 03, 2013, 09:27:47 pm

Scum hunting is a team effort, even if the town doesn't know who's on their team. I thought that pretty obvious, thus the skip over on the answer. I hope that clarifies.

Do you really believe this, or are you just saying that with the hopes that it will sound like a pro town enough?

If this really is part of your mantra, why are you content to cause 'unneeded chaos' just for your own benefit, as you confessed to doing here:

Quote from: makeinu on December 03, 2013, 11:57:30 am

Quote

So your plan to understand how we react is to cause unneeded chaos? This seems incredibly stupid and is not helping anybody get anywhere, except to find more reasons to lynch you.

Correction: it's not helping anyone else get anywhere. It gives me a baseline to work from.

For instance. Assume, for the moment, I survive until tomorrow. Further assume that overnight, I come up with strong evidence of another player's scum role. Having now made baseless accusations, I can compare and contrast the reaction to that against a factual accusation.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - Trouble at Sea
Post by: TheDarkStar on December 03, 2013, 10:27:41 pm

Quote from: makeinu on December 03, 2013, 09:27:47 pm

Um, hi. Confession time.

So, it turns out I may have been a little manic yesterday, due to an unforeseen drug interaction. And by may have, I mean was completely. And by a little, I mean a lot.

Apologies all around. It exacerbated my natural tendencies toward paranoia and strange behaviour.

That sounds a bit like an excuse for getting away with causing excess suspicion as scum. "Oops, I messed up, but it wasn't really me. Ignore my suspicious posts."

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - Trouble at Sea
Post by: Mephansteras on December 03, 2013, 10:35:12 pm

Quote from: TheDarkStar on December 03, 2013, 10:27:41 pm

Quote from: makeinu on December 03, 2013, 09:27:47 pm

Um, hi. Confession time.

So, it turns out I may have been a little manic yesterday, due to an unforeseen drug interaction. And by may have, I mean was completely. And by a little, I mean a lot.

Apologies all around. It exacerbated my natural tendencies toward paranoia and strange behaviour.

That sounds a bit like an excuse for getting away with causing excess suspicion as scum. "Oops, I messed up, but it wasn't really me. Ignore my suspicious posts."

Friendly note since you're new: Due to the potential consequences of edited posts, editing posts is not allowed in mafia games. If you need to change something, quote yourself and make the change there.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - Trouble at Sea
Post by: Max White on December 03, 2013, 10:36:00 pm

Leik this.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - Trouble at Sea
Post by: TheDarkStar on December 03, 2013, 10:36:57 pm

Quote from: Mephansteras on December 03, 2013, 10:35:12 pm

Quote from: TheDarkStar on December 03, 2013, 10:27:41 pm

Quote from: makeinu on December 03, 2013, 09:27:47 pm

Um, hi. Confession time.

So, it turns out I may have been a little manic yesterday, due to an unforeseen drug interaction. And by may have, I mean was completely. And by a little, I mean a lot.

Apologies all around. It exacerbated my natural tendencies toward paranoia and strange behaviour.

That sounds a bit like an excuse for getting away with causing excess suspicion as scum. "Oops, I messed up, but it wasn't really me. Ignore my suspicious posts."

Friendly note since you're new: Due to the potential consequences of edited posts, editing posts is not allowed in mafia games. If you need to change something, quote yourself and make the change there.

Thanks, I missed that rule.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - Trouble at Sea
Post by: Max White on December 03, 2013, 10:37:10 pm

Quote from: Max White on December 03, 2013, 10:36:00 pm

Like this.

Fix'd.


Anyway, you have a bit of a back log of questions to answer TheDarkStar. I'm curious as to what you have to say.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - Trouble at Sea
Post by: makeinu on December 03, 2013, 10:37:41 pm

Quote from: Max White on December 03, 2013, 10:12:32 pm

Do you really believe this, or are you just saying that with the hopes that it will sound like a pro town enough?

You do realize that there's literally no way to answer that question that won't confirm your already held beliefs, right?

TheDarkStar: thank you. I'll pass your input on to my neurologist when I see him next week.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - Trouble at Sea
Post by: TheDarkStar on December 03, 2013, 10:42:17 pm

Quote from: Imp on December 03, 2013, 01:23:37 am

TheDarkStar:  Of the players in this game with you, who do you know the best and how well do you know that/those person(s)?  How many of the B12 Mafia games have you read so far, and how completely have you read the one you know the best?

The people I recognize best are the hyperactive posters here, from looking through this thread. I have Mafia experience, but not B12 Mafia experience, and I have not looked over any Mafia games yet. Yes, I realize that was not the best idea (at least now).

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - Trouble at Sea
Post by: Max White on December 03, 2013, 10:43:33 pm

Quote from: makeinu on December 03, 2013, 10:37:41 pm

You do realize that there's literally no way to answer that question that won't confirm your already held beliefs, right?

Well you certainly try. Explain yourself a little. You don't need to convince me if you can convince everybody else, so why would you refuse to give an answer?

Also, what 'already held beliefs' would you be referring to?

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - Trouble at Sea
Post by: makeinu on December 03, 2013, 10:49:24 pm

Quote from: Max White on December 03, 2013, 10:12:32 pm

Do you really believe this, or are you just saying that with the hopes that it will sound like a pro town enough?

"Yes, I really believe this, my behaviour aside."

"Ah ha! But that's exactly what scum would say!"

"No, I don't really believe this. I believe that sometimes scum-hunting is a solo venture."

"So, you admit to being scum! Or do you just think you're smarter than everyone else?"

Quote from: Max White on December 03, 2013, 10:43:33 pm

Also, what 'already held beliefs' would you be referring to?

That you believe my posts indicate I am scum, or at least scummy.

Maybe I'm just projecting. I'm tired today, it's been a very long day.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - Trouble at Sea
Post by: TheDarkStar on December 03, 2013, 10:51:43 pm

Quote from: makeinu on December 03, 2013, 10:49:24 pm

I'm tired today, it's been a very long day.

More excuses won't help; get some proof built up over the next few game-days of being non-scum.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - Trouble at Sea
Post by: makeinu on December 03, 2013, 10:53:13 pm

Wow, your sympathy is overwhelming.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - Trouble at Sea
Post by: makeinu on December 03, 2013, 10:54:02 pm

I think I'll come back tomorrow. I think I'm done for today.

Cheers.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - Trouble at Sea
Post by: TheDarkStar on December 03, 2013, 10:54:33 pm

Quote from: makeinu on December 03, 2013, 10:53:13 pm

Wow, your sympathy is overwhelming.

I just don't entirely trust you, since you have made excuses for quite a few different sets of posts.

(But if you do happen to be telling the truth, sorry).

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - Trouble at Sea
Post by: TheDarkStar on December 03, 2013, 10:54:50 pm

I'm off for today probably.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - Trouble at Sea
Post by: makeinu on December 03, 2013, 11:24:17 pm

Quote from: TheDarkStar on December 03, 2013, 10:54:33 pm

Quote from: makeinu on December 03, 2013, 10:53:13 pm

Wow, your sympathy is overwhelming.

I just don't entirely trust you, since you have made excuses for quite a few different sets of posts.

(But if you do happen to be telling the truth, sorry).

Forgive my terseness. It really has been a rough day.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - Trouble at Sea
Post by: Tiruin on December 04, 2013, 12:47:27 am

What just happened.

PFP reading up

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - Trouble at Sea
Post by: makeinu on December 04, 2013, 01:21:26 am

Q&A and Real Life.

PFP? Post For Post?

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - Trouble at Sea
Post by: Tiruin on December 04, 2013, 01:24:14 am

*points at Beginner's Mafia abbreviation spoiler*

Posting from Phone/Profession (the latter for me as internet on the phone is sloooow)

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - Trouble at Sea
Post by: Jim Groovester on December 04, 2013, 01:57:35 am

Quote from: RangerCado on December 03, 2013, 11:22:07 am

responses to makeinu

Did all of makeinu's post require a line by line response?

I'm struggling to find your point here.

Quote from: RangerCado on December 03, 2013, 07:41:14 pm

Jim: Yeah yeah, your cranky and hate getting pestered, but you haven't dished at many questions from what i've seen so far, and have been playing a reactive game. Any reason why? I can understand if your busy but i'd like some indication of actually scum hunting.

I actually am busy. This is the last week of classes for me, so every professor decides that now is the time to make everything due. Next week is finals.

Any time I spend here is time I'm stealing from the stuff I actually need to get done.

In any case, the reason I've been weak with my scumhunting efforts is because I've mostly been posting late at night when I'm tired and don't really feel like making all that much effort to make a post, besides answering questions and a few other topics of interest. I've also been operating on little sleep since the game started.

As always, I pursue what I feel is worth pursuing.

Quote from: makeinu on December 03, 2013, 11:57:30 am

Quote

If you want to know why i'm suspicious of you, heres the list:
-You dodged a question that was also a slight accusation, even if the accusation wasn't directed at you.
-Your flailing a lot right now, not something most mafia players do.
-Your answers to all of these questions don't sit well with me, regardless of how many you've answered. That doesn't make you town.
-Your asking me to unvote you because you think my vote is invalid because of its starting point, ignoring how i've been pursuing it.

All fair and valid reasons. I withdraw my request. Vote as your conscience and intuition see fit.

Why are you admitting the validity of RangerCado's reasons for suspecting you?

This seems like a tacit admission that you are a doppelganger. How else could the reasons be fair and valid?

Quote from: makeinu on December 03, 2013, 09:27:47 pm

So, it turns out I may have been a little manic yesterday, due to an unforeseen drug interaction. And by may have, I mean was completely. And by a little, I mean a lot.

I don't know the circumstances of what happened, but I fully recommend that you do not play under the influence.

It's just a bad idea.

Quote from: Max White on December 03, 2013, 08:38:12 pm

The point still remains that we ask each other questions with the hope of provoking some sort of response. When you interject on these questions, as you did, it may give scum a chance to modify their answers in a way that better suits their needs. You give them information to work from. As far as asking 'Why did you ask that in the first place', I don't see why you couldn't have waited until I gave a reply and saw what I had to say. You seem to have interrupted another players scum hunting.

I understand your reasoning here but I question whether it's as all-important as you seem to be implying.

Is interfering with another player's scumhunting typically a tell associated with scum players?

Quote from: TheDarkStar on December 03, 2013, 10:27:41 pm

That sounds a bit like an excuse for getting away with causing excess suspicion as scum. "Oops, I messed up, but it wasn't really me. Ignore my suspicious posts."

So do you suspect makeinu for it?

Tiruin & Max White, since you've both voted each other and I don't quite feel up to looking through your posts in the detail required to figure out what both of you are talking about, could you provide me a clean summary of your arguments against each other?

TheDarkStar & Sinlessmoon, I consider you part of the people whom I addressed with my question directed towards new people, and I would like it answered.

Quote from: Jim Groovester on December 03, 2013, 01:56:34 am

New People, let's say you are scum and your scum buddy is being scummy. And not just a little scummy, like, really, really scummy. What do you do?

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - Trouble at Sea
Post by: Max White on December 04, 2013, 02:19:13 am

Quote from: makeinu on December 03, 2013, 10:49:24 pm

"Yes, I really believe this, my behaviour aside."

"Ah ha! But that's exactly what scum would say!"

"No, I don't really believe this. I believe that sometimes scum-hunting is a solo venture."

"So, you admit to being scum! Or do you just think you're smarter than everyone else?"

Now I have two problems here. Firstly you are still avoiding giving some sort of actual answer, but secondly you are making it very clear that you are answering questions based on what you think is the most 'townie' thing to say, rather than honestly. It is pretty scummy to be trying to figure out what answer is 'right' in terms of getting me to leave you alone, rather than what is the truth.

Quote from: Jim Groovester on December 04, 2013, 01:57:35 am

I understand your reasoning here but I question whether it's as all-important as you seem to be implying.

Is interfering with another player's scumhunting typically a tell associated with scum players?

Well it wasn't last time.

Quote from: Jim Groovester on December 04, 2013, 01:57:35 am

Tiruin & Max White, since you've both voted each other and I don't quite feel up to looking through your posts in the detail required to figure out what both of you are talking about, could you provide me a clean summary of your arguments against each other?

Basically I saw Tiruin do something interesting, so I bought it up and she got somewhat agitated by the fact that I was singling her out. So following on from that I voted for her to see how that would go and she got so annoyed she decided to return the favor.

I honestly don't care very much about her answering my question for me, it is the kind of thing people sometimes do, but when she is throwing out OMGUS votes to people this early as an act of aggression that is a little more interesting.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - Trouble at Sea
Post by: makeinu on December 04, 2013, 04:25:42 am

Quote from: Jim Groovester on December 04, 2013, 01:57:35 am

Quote from: makeinu on December 03, 2013, 11:57:30 am

All fair and valid reasons. I withdraw my request. Vote as your conscience and intuition see fit.

Why are you admitting the validity of RangerCado's reasons for suspecting you?

This seems like a tacit admission that you are a doppelganger. How else could the reasons be fair and valid?

Because it's a tacit admission that he's perfectly within his rights to hold whatever suspicions he wants to regarding me. His suspicions are not based on facts, but on intuition, hunch, whatever, but that does not make them any less valid for him to hold.

You must think me stupid that you'd think I'm admitting to being a doppelganger.

Quote

I don't know the circumstances of what happened, but I fully recommend that you do not play under the influence.

Ongoing medical treatment. Prescription drugs often have weird, unexpected, interactions. Especially one of the preventative drugs I'm on.

---

Quote from: Max White on December 04, 2013, 02:19:13 am

Now I have two problems here. Firstly you are still avoiding giving some sort of actual answer, but secondly you are making it very clear that you are answering questions based on what you think is the most 'townie' thing to say, rather than honestly.

And I have one problem here: I have given an actual, honest, answer, yet we still come back to the problem, namely:

Quote from: makeinu on December 03, 2013, 10:49:24 pm

That you believe my posts indicate I am scum, or at least scummy.

And anything I say or do will be filtered through that lens for you. Anything I say or do will be, is being, interpreted as:

Quote

pretty scummy to be trying to figure out what answer is 'right' in terms of getting me to leave you alone, rather than what is the truth.

So pardon me if I see no point in, what was the word used, overreacting, to your accusations any longer.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - Trouble at Sea
Post by: Tiruin on December 04, 2013, 05:09:25 am

Quote from: Max White on December 04, 2013, 02:19:13 am

Quote from: Jim Groovester on December 04, 2013, 01:57:35 am

Tiruin & Max White, since you've both voted each other and I don't quite feel up to looking through your posts in the detail required to figure out what both of you are talking about, could you provide me a clean summary of your arguments against each other?

Basically I saw Tiruin do something interesting, so I bought it up and she got somewhat agitated by the fact that I was singling her out. So following on from that I voted for her to see how that would go and she got so annoyed she decided to return the favor.

I honestly don't care very much about her answering my question for me, it is the kind of thing people sometimes do, but when she is throwing out OMGUS votes to people this early as an act of aggression that is a little more interesting.

The heck Max? Now you're trying to twist the logic like you've no guilt at all, huh. I got agitated because you got worked up over some kind of question not even directed to you. You don't even say anything about the case when you try to talk to Jim here.

And you try to play the oblivious apathetical ground, huh. Like I'm agitated because you 'singled me out' as if you caught someone. Then you twist the story as if I'm OMGUS'ing (you never back it up) without bringing in the context? Oh yeah I'm more inclined to now say that you really do suck given this cheap play.

Jim I'll leave the interpretation to you, but please do read two pages in exact next time?

Quote

I don't quite feel up to looking through your posts in the detail required to figure out what both of you are talking about, could you provide me a clean summary of your arguments against each other?

I mean, I could also not quite feel up to caring but hey, you noticed the shallow detail there! It's only a few pages back!
The argument starts here, regarding my question TO PERSUS (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=133676.msg4807416#msg4807416)
Max takes interest and advances an accusation (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=133676.msg4808519#msg4808519)
(I cut the quote there due to his wording in that post) but that refers to me, and my response (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=133676.msg4808653#msg4808653)
Then misinterpretation (as what seemed to me first) happens. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=133676.msg4808689#msg4808689)
Continue along the post line and you'll see strange reasons back and forth.

---

---

---

Max

Quote from: Max White on December 03, 2013, 08:38:12 pm

Quote from: Tiruin on December 03, 2013, 08:26:33 pm

...You really can't see what communication is, or you're deliberately prodding me with this assumed ignorance. Max

It continues communication given that you can still talk to him about it. It closes no lines nor does it make any possible conversation become a full stop! How does that kind of scenario even stop anyone from asking him anything? Yes it tells 'I'm wrong and oops!' but it also gives way to other questions along that line! Why did he ask that in the first place? Did he not check back to make sure? Why is he backing off...

All that!

In your hypothetical scenario, you can bring up what he was stating, and then shove it in his face on why he did what he did and query on what he assumed you were doing.

Quote

And yes, I'm questioning people who I think are turning out a little suspicious, yourself among them. Do you have a problem with that? I'll target who ever I like.

I've a problem with how you're stating all this. You're only targeting specific people and then homing in on them, without being precise and to the point.

I mean given how what we're discussing has a direct tangent to Persus, I see nothing as of recent note on you poking on him.

Persus isn't throwing out OMGUS votes now, is he? Why do you want to move the conversation to him so badly?

The point still remains that we ask each other questions with the hope of provoking some sort of response. When you interject on these questions, as you did, it may give scum a chance to modify their answers in a way that better suits their needs. You give them information to work from. As far as asking 'Why did you ask that in the first place', I don't see why you couldn't have waited until I gave a reply and saw what I had to say. You seem to have interrupted another players scum hunting.

Anyway, did you shove it in his face?

Sure, you can keep talking, but things would have changed and the initial line of questioning might not be effective anymore. You would have messed up somebodies scum hunting.

Aww, let's use the scummy label of OMGUS to further the fact in public that Tiruin is suspicious.
Think more buddy.
I voted you because of how the heck you're twisting my simple query into a complex web of INTERVENTION and DEFENSE (and a total disregard of the context and origin of those two words and how they relate to you). Said vote, was in fact a pressure vote--I was confused when I saw your vote firsthand, then checked back, then forwarded my curiosity.
It's sticking now given how you're amping up the scale.

The orange part is partly because IT WAS AIMED AT HIM. I'm not aiming at diverting the chat to 'OH LET'S TALK ABOUT PERSUS' but because our argument references what he said, which still continues along our tangent. I asked Persus what he saw regarding you tunneling; is that so hard that you can't formulate your own question back and have to feel hurt and hit on the asker?

The purple point speaks contradiction. You speak to me as if I'm town--given how you're stating 'scum' in that notion--however nobody knows if I'm town or not.

The bolded part is a blatant disregard of thought. You can ask someone damn well anything that is pertinent and still scumhunt and what I get is that you're thinking of it as a linear form of communication?

The green part: Nope. Seeing his response, it's quite the normal response. Unlike yours, which I'm shoving in your face.

Lastly, I ask what interests me, the same as what interests you. The fact that you tried to make a shallow concept of it and then dig a deeper reading (ie reading too much into something and assuming so far that the illogical seems logical) and then try to cater it off to others as a summary really disgusts me.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - Trouble at Sea
Post by: Imp on December 04, 2013, 06:33:36 am

Caz:  You've made three posts so far.  You've answered questions, asked an RVS question of both Persus13 and TheDarkStar, joked around, reassured Tiruin you'd prefer to behave like a gentlewoman, pointed out that we're not all veterans, and reassured makeinu that he's doing fine.

Do your posts and their content so far reflect how you intend to play for the rest of the game?  If so, what strategy are you using, to achieve what goals?  If not, what are you waiting for before you really start to play?

Toaster:  You've asked two players questions about their questioning of all other players, and each of your questions has included a negatively-directed statement about those players lack focus because of questioning everyone.

Quote from: Toaster on December 03, 2013, 10:06:40 am

Ranger:
Since you're questioning everyone, how will you cope with the loss of focus your questions have?

Imp:
Why did you cast a wide net and question everyone instead of focusing your attention?

Please explain why you percieve questioning everyone as preventing focused attention.

Quote from: Toaster on December 03, 2013, 10:06:40 am

For the record, I am 100% for claiming Kook status first post, and extend this to regular miller in any game I play.

Why?  Furthermore, one possible reaction I imagine is voting you from suspicion that you are not a miller, but a Scum claiming to be a miller.  How would you handle that so that your claim and the reactions it provoked on D1 served Town? 

Sinlessmoon:  You've also made three posts so far.  You've answered questions, questioned makeinu about his reactions to yourself and Jim having been online but not yet posted as of a couple hours after start of play, explained what you might have been doing instead of being aware the game was going, and prodded makeinu when he hadn't answered your question despite having made many posts since your question.

Do your posts and their content so far reflect how you intend to play for the rest of the game?  If so, what strategy are you using, to achieve what goals?  If not, what are you waiting for before you really start to play?

TheDarkStar:  You've made 6 posts so far.  You've made a statement about makeinu being Scummy, applogized for an editing error, answered a question, told makeinu to act less Scummy in future, told makeinu you didn't trust him, he was appologizing a lot, and that if he was being honest you were sorry, and told us you were going off the forum for the day.

Do your posts and their content so far reflect how you intend to play for the rest of the game?  If so, what strategy are you using, to achieve what goals?  If not, what are you waiting for before you really start to play?

Jim:

Quote from: Jim Groovester on December 03, 2013, 02:52:07 pm

This will affect how I perceive and treat these players, so it's not a useless fluff question like the words I would use to describe my play style.

Quote from: Jim Groovester on December 03, 2013, 01:56:34 am

Quote from: Toaster on December 03, 2013, 12:02:37 am

Jim:  Arrr.  Be ye a swarthy enough pirate to see us out of this mess?

Aye. Be ye a seaworthy enough sailor to smoothly sail to safety?

I see I'm not the only one who got a 'bad enough dude' vibe from the day opening post.

Explain which side of the fluff-line Toaster's question, your answer to it, and your answering question each falls on?  If these are not fluffy to you, what is the useful purpose you see these serving?

Max:  How important is it to you to determine if a Scummy player is actually Scum or not?  If that difference is important to you, how much effort do you put into trying to distinguish which category a Scummy player belongs in?

makeinu:  How different is your play now from how you expect to play later into the game?  You've made a few suggestions in your posts that you're acting the way you are because that's how you approach a crowd of strange players.  Having done what you've done so far, what are you waiting for before getting down to the 'business' of playing Mafia - which is chasing your Wincon.

How well do you feel you need to know us, before you actually start to do more than 'get to know us'?

When you look at your own behavior, on a scale of 'wow, this player is really an ideal example of Town behavior' to 'wow, this player is really a perfect example of what Scummy is' - where do you see your overall behavior so far this game falling?

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - Trouble at Sea
Post by: makeinu on December 04, 2013, 06:54:05 am

My first attempt at a reply came across obsequious. This is not that attempt.

Quote from: Imp on December 04, 2013, 06:33:36 am

makeinu:  How different is your play now from how you expect to play later into the game?  You've made a few suggestions in your posts that you're acting the way you are because that's how you approach a crowd of strange players.  Having done what you've done so far, what are you waiting for before getting down to the 'business' of playing Mafia - which is chasing your Wincon.

How well do you feel you need to know us, before you actually start to do more than 'get to know us'?

I feel I've got a good read on the forum and the players now. I'll try for sanity next.

Quote

When you look at your own behavior, on a scale of 'wow, this player is really an ideal example of Town behavior' to 'wow, this player is really a perfect example of what Scummy is' - where do you see your overall behavior so far this game falling?

Oh, good lord, self-evaluation, how I hate self-evaluation.

Hardly the former, but definitely not the latter. I suppose, seen from the outside, I'd definitely consider my actions as warranting examination. I wouldn't lynch based on them, barring very convincing arguments.

And please don't ask me what would qualify as a convincing argument. It's like hard-core porn: I know it when I see it.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - Trouble at Sea
Post by: Imp on December 04, 2013, 07:21:19 am

Quote from: makeinu on December 04, 2013, 06:54:05 am

And please don't ask me what would qualify as a convincing argument. It's like hard-core porn: I know it when I see it.

My goal is to understand you, particularly your motives (can't get directly at them, I've got to go through your methods, so I'd better understand those too).  But your motives are also an indirect target - just more detectable than your alignment, which is my real target.

I need to decide if you are hostile to Town or helpful because my Wincon requires me to eliminate threats to Town.  Sadly I don't really see neutral as an option - if you're neither hostile or helpful I'm still going to judge your methods to determine your motives and discern my opinion of your alignment.  If you're a neutral then you'd darn well better chase your Wincon in a way that also serves Town because otherwise you're serving the other side, and that means you are the other side to me and can be lynched with them.

There's another issue - Lylo is coming.  I want my side to win.  I want players alive at Lylo who are able to think rationally, evaluate others accurately, and work effectively towards achieving a Town win.  Players incapable or unwilling to 'play seriously' and work towards achieving their Wincon are dangerous, and deadly dangerous come Lylo.

I'm not going to ask you further questions right now.  I've asked you quite a few, and I have an opinion of you, because of your behavior, your interactions with me, and your interactions with others in this game.  I am still collecting information, but you've given me a lot of information about yourself already.  There's other players' questions that you've not answered, and there is your own Wincon to chase.

But I have discussed with you my two-fold concern about your play.  if you are Scum, by all means play any way you see fit.  But if you are Town, Town needs you.  Town is hard, Town is a lot of work, and Town can't afford to carry other Town who are not here to work for that hard to get win.

I believe you have been chasing your Wincon to the best of your ability this game, up to this point.  I'm unsure what to think about what you've said about your medical issues and how they affect your ability to play - if you know you cannot actually play this game, I do suggest you request a replacement as soon as possible.  However, I have to assume that you are under some degree of self control and have some ability to decide what to do - and what you have done so far includes your real choices, methods, motives, and clues to your alignment as well as whatever weirdness your health situation has forced upon you.

But I'll be evaluating you on your play, like I evaluate everyone else in the game.  Drugged or not - you are here playing.  If you stay in game your posts will be evaluated: the past ones, present ones, and future ones as you make them.  I hope you understand how important it is to evaluate the effort each player is putting into the game, and what that work appears to be trying to achieve or not achieve.

Quote from: makeinu on December 04, 2013, 06:54:05 am

I feel I've got a good read on the forum and the players now. I'll try for sanity next.

That sounds appropriate.  I'm willing to continue evaluating you.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - Trouble at Sea
Post by: makeinu on December 04, 2013, 07:31:09 am

That, ser, is hard-core porn. ;)

I agree with your assessment of Neutral, fwiw.

I'm curious to know where your suspicions lie, but I won't ask for a reveal. That's your call. I know how dangerous it can be to give the other side too much insight into your suspicions.

Cheers.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - Trouble at Sea
Post by: Caz on December 04, 2013, 08:22:26 am

Quote from: Persus13 on December 03, 2013, 05:46:38 pm

At the moment, everyone is a nulltell to me at the moment

So much nulltells on day 1. I get that this day is useful to look back on once we get some useful information, but gods if it isn't boring. Just lame posturing and jumping on word play. :P

Quote from: Max White on December 03, 2013, 06:58:51 pm

You were very quick to jump in on a question directed at me.

True, jumping in the middle of questions is a foul. The people call foul! Death to Tiruin!

Quote from: RangerCado on December 03, 2013, 07:41:14 pm

Max: [/b]Take this as defending if you wish, but Tiruin does things like that all the time. I've done it myself once or twice and it can work out to get a reaction. I'm going to meta here, but do you think that doing what she did has no merit for her scum hunting, and if so why? If its just because it could seem like defending, then thats fine, but often people have more than one reason with these things.

RangerCado: You have been charged with defending the traitor. How do you plead?

Seems like there's a couple of narrow-focused arguments going on here. In colour, no less. Fancy.

Toaster: Do you have a read on anyone yet?

Quote from: makeinu on December 03, 2013, 09:27:47 pm

Apologies all around. It exacerbated my natural tendencies toward paranoia and strange behaviour.

Apology not accepted. Clearly you are worried at Imp's accusations and making up things to cover yourself. Tiruin can wait until we lynch this ponderous elf, makeinu.

Quote from: Imp on December 04, 2013, 06:33:36 am

Caz:  You've made three posts so far.  You've answered questions, asked an RVS question of both Persus13 and TheDarkStar, joked around, reassured Tiruin you'd prefer to behave like a gentlewoman, pointed out that we're not all veterans, and reassured makeinu that he's doing fine.

Do your posts and their content so far reflect how you intend to play for the rest of the game?  If so, what strategy are you using, to achieve what goals?  If not, what are you waiting for before you really start to play?

Just because I haven't got into an argument yet (Tiruin and Max, TheDarkStar and makeinu) or I'm not one of the most proliferous posters in mafia (you win that title, btw) doesn't mean you can score me out as a threat to the dopps. :P I'm just getting started.

But to answer the question - Nah, I assume it will get more interesting once there is something to go on and something catches my eye. Atm I'm just looking for reactions. Do you really enjoy the RV stage? I don't. 5 new pages of twaddle each time I log on and it's hard to see what to focus on. How do you think I should improve my strategy?

Quote from: Jim Groovester on December 04, 2013, 01:57:35 am

This seems like a tacit admission that you are a doppelganger. How else could the reasons be fair and valid?

Agreed, makeinu is dropping the ball here. Thus he must die.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - Trouble at Sea
Post by: Tiruin on December 04, 2013, 08:56:33 am

Hrglblrgl. RL cuts in every coincidental time. I promise a full post in the next ~5 horus.

---

Caz:

Quote from: Caz on December 04, 2013, 08:22:26 am

True, jumping in the middle of questions is a foul. The people call foul! Death to Tiruin!
[...]
Agreed, makeinu is dropping the ball here. Thus he must die.

While I'd take your red'ing of peoples names as you picking scummy suspects (or..a form of comedic play in choosing suspects >_>) I've to note that you aren't reading the context. Or talking ABOUT that context there.
And..really. Just plain foul? You take Max' word when I haven't even answered anything of Persus or whatever he has given?!
Ugh.

And on makeinu, he replied to Jim.

Quote from: makeinu on December 04, 2013, 04:25:42 am

Quote from: Jim Groovester on December 04, 2013, 01:57:35 am

Quote from: makeinu on December 03, 2013, 11:57:30 am

All fair and valid reasons. I withdraw my request. Vote as your conscience and intuition see fit.

Why are you admitting the validity of RangerCado's reasons for suspecting you?

This seems like a tacit admission that you are a doppelganger. How else could the reasons be fair and valid?

Because it's a tacit admission that he's perfectly within his rights to hold whatever suspicions he wants to regarding me. His suspicions are not based on facts, but on intuition, hunch, whatever, but that does not make them any less valid for him to hold.

You must think me stupid that you'd think I'm admitting to being a doppelganger.

Somehow, you're really inclined to bite when people say 'HE'S SUSPICIOUS' without checking, huh.

Also makeinu:

Quote from: makeinu on December 04, 2013, 07:31:09 am

That, ser, is hard-core porn. ;)

Imp is female.
Secondly, why're you giving the notion of accepting their opinion freely? I mean, I do understand how that notion follows as an opinion, but it seems you're being quite too...fluid(?). Apathetic(?). More like uncaring about what others say in regard to suspecting you.

Do you not think they're (as a generality) wrong in some way in accusing you or your actions as such?

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - Trouble at Sea
Post by: Tiruin on December 04, 2013, 08:58:26 am

EBWOP

Quote from: Caz on December 04, 2013, 08:22:26 am

Quote from: Persus13 on December 03, 2013, 05:46:38 pm

At the moment, everyone is a nulltell to me at the moment

So much nulltells on day 1. I get that this day is useful to look back on once we get some useful information, but gods if it isn't boring. Just lame posturing and jumping on word play. :P

I've no idea if you're commenting here, or giving your own opinion >_> So I'll take the former.

See: Bolded portion.
Query: Do you not think we have useful information at the moment? Expound, if misworded.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - Trouble at Sea
Post by: makeinu on December 04, 2013, 09:17:35 am

Quote from: Tiruin on December 04, 2013, 08:56:33 am

Somehow, you're really inclined to bite when people say 'HE'S SUSPICIOUS' without checking, huh.

I must confess, I don't understand this sentence in context.

Quote

Also makeinu:

Imp is female.[/quote]

Ah, see, I wondered at that, and took pains to check the profile first, which does not specify. Hence, ser, not a misspelling, which has been used in certain science fiction settings as a gender-neutral pronoun.

Quote

Secondly, why're you giving the notion of accepting their opinion freely? I mean, I do understand how that notion follows as an opinion, but it seems you're being quite too...fluid(?). Apathetic(?). More like uncaring about what others say in regard to suspecting you.

Do you not think they're (as a generality) wrong in some way in accusing you or your actions as such?

Uncaring? No. More, attempting not to jump at every shadow. Why should I not accept RangerCado's opinion freely? It's wrong, but objectively only I know that. For the rest of you, it's subjective. Hence, the freedom to hold those opinions should be respected.

But, to answer your question, directly: yes, I do know they're wrong.

I know my wincon and alignment. Having already been pinged as suspicious for previously throwing out assertions to them, I refuse to further that by repeating them in every post to defend myself. At the risk of being pinged for such again, however, I will do so here. My wincon requires eliminating threats to the town.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - Trouble at Sea
Post by: RangerCado on December 04, 2013, 11:11:46 am

makeinu: Okay, defending yourself about something that is entirely wrong, or a misunderstanding is completely acceptable, and indeed is used by others if they notice it to further a case against the player doing the misunderstanding, but constantly saying that i'm wrong, is making me more suspicious. Your defending isn't helping you and it would seem far wiser to pursue scum hunting while still answering others questions until you find a blatant fault in your accusers argument. Yet you continue to do this mess of defending I would expect from new players not used to mafia or atleast forum mafia. (Which is what I did a lot in my games earlier) Why do you seem to be playing as if your new to the game entirely?

Caz: I'll plead guilty to trying to understand where Max was going with this. As I said, I didn't care if it sounded like defending as I was only trying to work out where the mis-guided logic was coming from and why. Also, your vote is on makeinu now because he was the last person you red texted. So who are you voting for and can you give a summary of why?

Jim: I checked every line because i'm trying to figure out what makeinu's playstyle and way of thinking is. Checking his responses to mine is a good way to check for me to start. Is there a problem with that exactly?

Max: Your pressing of Tiruin is weak at best and is over something that I believe you are just misunderstanding. Can you give a list of your current reasons for going after Tiruin, or are you currently just desperate for a suspect? Because if thats whats going on, it is incredibly scummy of you.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - Trouble at Sea
Post by: makeinu on December 04, 2013, 11:18:58 am

RangerCado: In response to Tiruin, I was not defending myself, I was answering her question.

Regardless, as before, you're free to be suspicious based on your read of my actions, but your suspicion is misplaced. Barring my death and a role/alignment flip, however, I can't prove that you're wrong. If my assertion, based on the facts that I have but cannot prove, that you're wrong makes you more suspicious, then so be it.

And your scum-hunting is not my scum-hunting. Methods vary. Results matter. Right now, I have some suspicions and am laboring to separate reason from emotion in parsing those.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - Trouble at Sea
Post by: Mephansteras on December 04, 2013, 11:53:29 am

The Whiteboard
makeinu: Caz, RangerCado
Max White: Persus13, Tiruin
Tiruin: Max White

---

Day ends ~5pm Pacific Thursday

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - Trouble at Sea
Post by: Caz on December 04, 2013, 01:39:45 pm

Quote from: Tiruin on December 04, 2013, 08:56:33 am

And..really. Just plain foul? You take Max' word when I haven't even answered anything of Persus or whatever he has given?!

Meh, I suppose I should write down my thought process better. Caz no rite gud.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - Trouble at Sea
Post by: Imp on December 04, 2013, 02:34:11 pm

Quote from: Caz on December 04, 2013, 08:22:26 am

Do you really enjoy the RV stage? I don't. 5 new pages of twaddle each time I log on and it's hard to see what to focus on. How do you think I should improve my strategy?

I'm currently 'addicted' to Mafia and after a month of playing my first game followed by a month of playing that game plus two others at the same time, plus that for me all three of those games 'ended' (one goes on, but without me.  And I won, so for me it seems 'over') within days of each other - well, I crave and addicts can't be choosers.

RV stage is part of Mafia, and I was starting to get psychological withdrawals.  I don't care if my drug comes to me in this form or that one, I just want my drug in whatever dose and strength I can get.

'Do I enjoy RV stage?'  Ha, I'm not sure that any part of playing Mafia is actually fun.  Does anyone enjoy Mafia?  I find it interesting to the point of fascination and find it to be addictive, and consider it the safest way I've found yet to 'really practice' certain skills in a context that emulates reality a bit - after all, for pretend some of us really want to kill some of the others, and all of us are, for now, hiding our roles if not our alignments.  For that purpose, RV is a reasonable simulation of real life 'first contact' with people who have something important to hide and who may genuinely mean me harm - and irl, the 'RV stage'/'first contact' is a vital one.  If you can end the dance there, before it really starts, you're probably going to take no personal losses.  Because for me Mafia is also a form of simulation game, and what it simulates relates to real life survival, I 'get something' I interpret to have real value even from RV stage, yes.

As to 'how do {I} think {you} should improve {your} strategy', I'll draw again upon the words of Jim, acting as an IC some time ago:

Quote from: Jim Groovester on January 17, 2012, 12:07:34 pm

For those of you who don't know what to do ... find scum, which is your primary goal.

And because it bears repeating: Your primary goal is to find scum. Everything you do should help you towards that goal. And I do mean everything.

If you're scum, you will obviously have a different goal: Avoid detection until the end of the game. The best way to do this is to look like you are trying to find scum.

...So be bold, and just do the best you can. You're going to play this by aggressively questioning everything you find odd or scummy. This is to get you in the habit of asking questions a lot, since that's how the game of mafia is played and won.

I re-interpret one part of that to be the core of what you should do in every stage of every game:

Quote

And because it bears repeating:  Your primary goal is to [achieve your Wincon]. Everything you do should help you towards that goal. And I do mean everything

I think that advice is solid and useful for everyone, period.

Quote from: Caz on December 04, 2013, 08:22:26 am

So much nulltells on day 1. I get that this day is useful to look back on once we get some useful information, but gods if it isn't boring. Just lame posturing and jumping on word play. :P

Hrm.  Reading the entirety of the rest of your post, you've just said what you're doing in your post, haven't you.  So how do you think a Mafia game should start, Caz?  What would be better than RV stage?

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - Trouble at Sea
Post by: Caz on December 04, 2013, 03:06:37 pm

Quote from: Imp on December 04, 2013, 02:34:11 pm

  Does anyone enjoy Mafia?  I find it interesting to the point of fascination and find it to be addictive, and consider it the safest way I've found yet to 'really practice' certain skills in a context that emulates reality a bit - after all, for pretend some of us really want to kill some of the others, and all of us are, for now, hiding our roles if not our alignments.  For that purpose, RV is a reasonable simulation of real life 'first contact' with people who have something important to hide and who may genuinely mean me harm - and irl, the 'RV stage'/'first contact' is a vital one.  If you can end the dance there, before it really starts, you're probably going to take no personal losses.  Because for me Mafia is also a form of simulation game, and what it simulates relates to real life survival, I 'get something' I interpret to have real value even from RV stage, yes.

Wow... Remind me not to get on your bad side if you're using even mafia as a training ground to further your IRL pwnage. O_o To me, I play because I enjoy the puzzle.

Quote from: Imp on December 04, 2013, 02:34:11 pm

And because it bears repeating: Your primary goal is to find scum. Everything you do should help you towards that goal. And I do mean everything.

So do you thus take a bad view of anyone who jokes in mafia? Is joking itself a scumtell?

Quote from: Imp on December 04, 2013, 02:34:11 pm

So how do you think a Mafia game should start, Caz?  What would be better than RV stage?

I prefer night starts.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - Trouble at Sea
Post by: Imp on December 04, 2013, 04:12:17 pm

Caz:

Quote from: Caz on December 04, 2013, 03:06:37 pm

Wow... Remind me not to get on your bad side if you're using even mafia as a training ground to further your IRL pwnage. O_o To me, I play because I enjoy the puzzle.

*chuckles*  My focus IRL especially is in noticing others' intentions.  I've been the victim of quite a few types of abuse in my life, starting from earliest childhood.  It's not necessarily IRL pwnage - it's IRL evaluation of threat and determination of intention, as well as 'handling pressure' that I most see connection to through Mafia.  It's IRL 'I am -not- a victim, and I will never again be victimized if that is possible to prevent.'

---

I try to live by what one military serviceman and martial artist wrote and called 'The Warrior Creed':

Wherever I go,
 everyone is a little bit safer because I am there.

Wherever I am,
 anyone in need has a friend.

Whenever I return home,
 everyone is happy I am there.

---

Given your preference of enjoying the puzzle, do you see 'set ups' you can use for puzzle pieces even from the very start of play, or is D1 really and truly wasted time to you?

Quote from: Caz on December 04, 2013, 03:06:37 pm

So do you thus take a bad view of anyone who jokes in mafia? Is joking itself a scumtell?

No.  Communication is a tool.  Joking is a form of communication and a form of tool useage.  How a joke is used, and what use of a joke appears to be trying to achieve, just like every other action taken or not taken, that's where I try to understand method-motive-intention/alignment.

Far as I'm concerned, everything every player does -should- be working towards their Wincon.  Some players don't know how to do this yet, some players disagree that this is how the game should be played, and some players disagree that this is how they personally should play.  My job's to try and figure out what each person I'm playing with is actually doing well enough to figure out who the Scum/hostiles are.

But if you see a way to use jokes to achieve your Wincon, go for it.  If you see any other way to achieve your Wincon, go for it.  I'm just going to watch everything everyone does to the best of my ability and try to figure out what each person's posts say about their motives and intentions over the entire course of the game, filtered as much as possible for that player's unique traits (I'm not interested in lynching Scummy players, though I do believe we should lynch the Scummiest players as a rule - I want to lynch the real Scum and real hostiles, not players whose playstyles are Scummy.  That can be a fine line, so that's worth a lot of attention.)

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - Trouble at Sea
Post by: Tiruin on December 04, 2013, 04:53:14 pm

I've to PFP this from context...
And I really don't think that post will materialize until far time later x_x

Spoiler: OOC (click to show/hide)

Quote from: Imp on December 04, 2013, 04:12:17 pm

Caz:

Quote from: Caz on December 04, 2013, 03:06:37 pm

Wow... Remind me not to get on your bad side if you're using even mafia as a training ground to further your IRL pwnage. O_o To me, I play because I enjoy the puzzle.

*chuckles*  My focus IRL especially is in noticing others' intentions.  I've been the victim of quite a few types of abuse in my life, starting from earliest childhood.  It's not necessarily IRL pwnage - it's IRL evaluation of threat and determination of intention, as well as 'handling pressure' that I most see connection to through Mafia.  It's IRL 'I am -not- a victim, and I will never again be victimized if that is possible to prevent.'

You did ask me about my mindset...
...
...
Yeah this is basically also how it works for me. Intent and motive sense +5

As of the mean time, any questions directed to me that I missed?

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - Trouble at Sea
Post by: Persus13 on December 04, 2013, 05:22:28 pm

Makeinu: You said you think you have a read on forum members. Care to share them? Also, I would really appreciate that you make an effort to scumhunt. Otherwise you make us think you're scummy. Defending yourself is fine. not scumhunting isn't.

Caz:

Quote from: Caz on December 04, 2013, 08:22:26 am

Quote from: Persus13 on December 03, 2013, 05:46:38 pm

At the moment, everyone is a nulltell to me at the moment

So much nulltells on day 1. I get that this day is useful to look back on once we get some useful information, but gods if it isn't boring. Just lame posturing and jumping on word play. :P

D2 is usually the most interesting/fun day so far as I've found.

Quote from: Caz on December 04, 2013, 08:22:26 am

RangerCado: You have been charged with defending the traitor. How do you plead?

Seems like there's a couple of narrow-focused arguments going on here. In colour, no less. Fancy.

So you jump in on Max's side with no quotes from Tiruin to back it up? You scumbuddies with Max?

Quote from: Caz on December 04, 2013, 08:22:26 am

Quote from: makeinu on December 03, 2013, 09:27:47 pm

Apologies all around. It exacerbated my natural tendencies toward paranoia and strange behaviour.

Apology not accepted. Clearly you are worried at Imp's accusations and making up things to cover yourself. Tiruin can wait until we lynch this ponderous elf, makeinu.

That's a little harsh.

Quote from: Caz on December 04, 2013, 08:22:26 am

Quote from: Jim Groovester on December 04, 2013, 01:57:35 am

This seems like a tacit admission that you are a doppelganger. How else could the reasons be fair and valid?

Agreed, makeinu is dropping the ball here. Thus he must die.

So your argument against makeinu is because of RL issues and because of Jim and Max attacking him. I see.

Quote from: Caz on December 04, 2013, 08:22:26 am

Quote from: Persus13 on December 03, 2013, 05:46:38 pm

At the moment, everyone is a nulltell to me at the moment

So much nulltells on day 1. I get that this day is useful to look back on once we get some useful information, but gods if it isn't boring. Just lame posturing and jumping on word play. :P

D2 is usually the most interesting/fun day so far as I've found.

Quote from: Caz on December 04, 2013, 08:22:26 am

RangerCado: You have been charged with defending the traitor. How do you plead?

Seems like there's a couple of narrow-focused arguments going on here. In colour, no less. Fancy.

So you jump in on Max's side with no quotes from Tiruin to back it up? You scumbuddies with Max?

Quote from: Caz on December 04, 2013, 08:22:26 am

Quote from: makeinu on December 03, 2013, 09:27:47 pm

Apologies all around. It exacerbated my natural tendencies toward paranoia and strange behaviour.

Apology not accepted. Clearly you are worried at Imp's accusations and making up things to cover yourself. Tiruin can wait until we lynch this ponderous elf, makeinu.

That's a little harsh.

Quote from: Caz on December 04, 2013, 08:22:26 am

Quote from: Jim Groovester on December 04, 2013, 01:57:35 am

This seems like a tacit admission that you are a doppelganger. How else could the reasons be fair and valid?

Agreed, makeinu is dropping the ball here. Thus he must die.

So your argument against makeinu is because of RL issues and because of Jim and Max attacking him. I see.

Caz, Max, and Tiruin:

Quote from: Tiruin on December 04, 2013, 08:56:33 am

I haven't even answered anything of Persus or whatever he has given?!

For the record, I don't have a problem with Tiuin asking me a question. It seemed more like a question of clarification than an answer.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - Trouble at Sea
Post by: makeinu on December 04, 2013, 05:34:00 pm

Quote from: Persus13 on December 04, 2013, 05:22:28 pm

Makeinu: You said you think you have a read on forum members. Care to share them? Also, I would really appreciate that you make an effort to scumhunt. Otherwise you make us think you're scummy. Defending yourself is fine. not scumhunting isn't.

I would care to share, but I'm still uncertain how I would put those reads into coherent sentences. They're more... feelings than anything else yet.

As to the scum-hunting, forgive me if it seems I'm not. I'm unused to this style of Q&A scum-hunting, with random, or seemingly so, "What if..." questions posed and answered. Perhaps I was rash in jumping into this game immediately, but it looked interesting. I have itches that make me lean toward a couple as scum, but I haven't clarified for myself yet how much of that is an emotional lizard-brain response, and how much is logic.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - Trouble at Sea
Post by: Tiruin on December 04, 2013, 05:36:16 pm

Quote from: Persus13 on December 04, 2013, 05:22:28 pm

Caz, Max, and Tiruin:

Quote from: Tiruin on December 04, 2013, 08:56:33 am

I haven't even answered anything of Persus or whatever he has given?!

For the record, I don't have a problem with Tiuin asking me a question. It seemed more like a question of clarification than an answer.

And this is what I was saying when being accused of 'diverting the idea to Persus' (ok..not directly but that was in thought..). If he had a problem with me, then why didn't he attack me firsthand?

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - Trouble at Sea
Post by: Persus13 on December 04, 2013, 05:41:51 pm

Quote from: makeinu on December 04, 2013, 05:34:00 pm

As to the scum-hunting, forgive me if it seems I'm not. I'm unused to this style of Q&A scum-hunting, with random, or seemingly so, "What if..." questions posed and answered. Perhaps I was rash in jumping into this game immediately, but it looked interesting. I have itches that make me lean toward a couple as scum, but I haven't clarified for myself yet how much of that is an emotional lizard-brain response, and how much is logic.

Questions get information, information gives more chance of a scumtell (or lack of one) showing up, which helps find scum. I don't really understand the What if questions much myself, but they seem to help other people. What are your thoughts on the Max, Caz, Tiruin, and me debate?

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - Trouble at Sea
Post by: makeinu on December 04, 2013, 05:47:26 pm

I'll.... get back to you on that. I need to reread some of it with fresh(er) eyes than read it first.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - Trouble at Sea
Post by: Imp on December 04, 2013, 06:16:49 pm

Quote from: makeinu on December 04, 2013, 05:34:00 pm

As to the scum-hunting, forgive me if it seems I'm not. I'm unused to this style of Q&A scum-hunting, with random, or seemingly so, "What if..." questions posed and answered. Perhaps I was rash in jumping into this game immediately, but it looked interesting. I have itches that make me lean toward a couple as scum, but I haven't clarified for myself yet how much of that is an emotional lizard-brain response, and how much is logic.

makeinu, have you read any of the previous Mafia games in this forum?

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - Trouble at Sea
Post by: makeinu on December 04, 2013, 06:24:09 pm

Quote from: makeinu on December 03, 2013, 11:57:30 am

I've skimmed over a few mafia threads here so far ... I have enjoyed reading some of the more notable games here. Given me some ideas to take away for my own games.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - Trouble at Sea
Post by: Imp on December 04, 2013, 06:50:07 pm

Quote from: makeinu on December 04, 2013, 06:24:09 pm

Quote from: makeinu on December 03, 2013, 11:57:30 am

I've skimmed over a few mafia threads here so far ... I have enjoyed reading some of the more notable games here. Given me some ideas to take away for my own games.

What you 'skimmed over' and when you 'enjoyed reading some of the more notable games here', did you notice then the differences in how Mafia is played here from what you were used to before?

What did you think about the differences you noticed then, and how different does this game feel to you than the games you read?

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - Trouble at Sea
Post by: Caz on December 04, 2013, 07:04:34 pm

Quote from: Imp on December 04, 2013, 04:12:17 pm

*chuckles*  My focus IRL especially is in noticing others' intentions.  I've been the victim of quite a few types of abuse in my life, starting from earliest childhood.  It's not necessarily IRL pwnage - it's IRL evaluation of threat and determination of intention, as well as 'handling pressure' that I most see connection to through Mafia.  It's IRL 'I am -not- a victim, and I will never again be victimized if that is possible to prevent.'

---

I try to live by what one military serviceman and martial artist wrote and called 'The Warrior Creed':

Wherever I go,
 everyone is a little bit safer because I am there.

Wherever I am,
 anyone in need has a friend.

Whenever I return home,
 everyone is happy I am there.

Woah... Good plan. I want to be you when I grow up. :(

Quote from: Imp on December 04, 2013, 04:12:17 pm

Given your preference of enjoying the puzzle, do you see 'set ups' you can use for puzzle pieces even from the very start of play, or is D1 really and truly wasted time to you?

I'm really bad at puzzles. The biggest benefit to Day 1 I can see is that no one has really found their feet yet, and looking back to the Day 1 interactions can be really useful once we get some hard evidence later in the day, particularly how people are interacting with those who are later to be found either scum or town. Just now, a lot of it seems irrelevant.

Quote from: Imp on December 04, 2013, 04:12:17 pm

(I'm not interested in lynching Scummy players, though I do believe we should lynch the Scummiest players as a rule - I want to lynch the real Scum and real hostiles, not players whose playstyles are Scummy.  That can be a fine line, so that's worth a lot of attention.)

How do you decide between a scummy player that is town and a scummy player that is real scum? Do they have different tells to you?

Quote from: Persus13 on December 04, 2013, 05:22:28 pm

So your argument against makeinu is because of RL issues and because of Jim and Max attacking him. I see.

Put words into my mouth more, bro. My reasoning for my vote against makeinu is that his excuses are flimsy. You think scum isn't up to exaggerating irl issues to keep suspicion off them? I see people excusing their lack of coherent posts by lack of time, tiredness, whatever. Not all of them flip town. To be honest, making an excuse is almost admitting guilt. If you don't agree to that, I'll reference makeinu's frequent assurances to us that he is town. (After all, how else would we know?)

Quote from: makeinu on December 04, 2013, 11:18:58 am

Regardless, as before, you're free to be suspicious based on your read of my actions, but your suspicion is misplaced. Barring my death and a role/alignment flip, however, I can't prove that you're wrong.

Quote from: makeinu on December 04, 2013, 09:17:35 am

I know my wincon and alignment. Having already been pinged as suspicious for previously throwing out assertions to them, I refuse to further that by repeating them in every post to defend myself. At the risk of being pinged for such again, however, I will do so here. My wincon requires eliminating threats to the town.

Quote from: makeinu on December 03, 2013, 09:31:28 am

I'm not a dopp

Quote from: makeinu on December 03, 2013, 03:14:27 am

I'm not going to role claim, not on day one, but I am town.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - Trouble at Sea
Post by: Persus13 on December 04, 2013, 07:12:22 pm

Quote from: Caz on December 04, 2013, 07:04:34 pm

Quote from: Persus13 on December 04, 2013, 05:22:28 pm

So your argument against makeinu is because of RL issues and because of Jim and Max attacking him. I see.

Put words into my mouth more, bro. My reasoning for my vote against makeinu is that his excuses are flimsy. You think scum isn't up to exaggerating irl issues to keep suspicion off them? I see people excusing their lack of coherent posts by lack of time, tiredness, whatever. Not all of them flip town. To be honest, making an excuse is almost admitting guilt. If you don't agree to that, I'll reference makeinu's frequent assurances to us that he is town. (After all, how else would we know?)

Quote from: makeinu on December 04, 2013, 11:18:58 am

Regardless, as before, you're free to be suspicious based on your read of my actions, but your suspicion is misplaced. Barring my death and a role/alignment flip, however, I can't prove that you're wrong.

Quote from: makeinu on December 04, 2013, 09:17:35 am

I know my wincon and alignment. Having already been pinged as suspicious for previously throwing out assertions to them, I refuse to further that by repeating them in every post to defend myself. At the risk of being pinged for such again, however, I will do so here. My wincon requires eliminating threats to the town.

Quote from: makeinu on December 03, 2013, 09:31:28 am

I'm not a dopp

Quote from: makeinu on December 03, 2013, 03:14:27 am

I'm not going to role claim, not on day one, but I am town.

Yeah I think Makeinu is scummy because of his constant town-claims, but I think that lying about RL in Mafia is poor form for scum and so tend to believe it when mentioned by people as an excuse. My opinion differs in that I tend to give some leeway to people who seem like they're scum D1 because its easy to mess up, especially if your not scum and not checking your posts for errors.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - Trouble at Sea
Post by: Imp on December 04, 2013, 07:44:51 pm

Quote from: Caz on December 04, 2013, 07:04:34 pm

How do you decide between a scummy player that is town and a scummy player that is real scum? Do they have different tells to you?

I am still working on that one, but I've had some early possible successes (one can also be right because of luck, and can misattribute 'a reason' for something going right when that 'reason' had absolutely no connection - that's how one becomes superstitious about something).

In my first game, BM42, I managed with a huge amount of work and interaction to figure out that Superblackcat, though super Scummy, was almost certainly Town (later proven that he was Town).  How I did so wasn't 'tells' per say, it wasn't 'oh, he said this, this, and that - thus he is Town not Scum'.

More what I did was pretend to be him.  I made the assumption that -everything- he said was true, then I pretended that I made every single one of his posts, and tried to figure out why I made them.  Why I reacted to what I reacted to, why I said what I said, what I meant when I said what I said, why I didn't react to what I didn't show a reaction to.

I made a 'model' of that player in my head, reconstructed from his actions in game, then I questioned 'it' and as Superblackcat continued to post, I compared it against his new posts.  Making it wasn't easy - it was possible to do because Superblackcat had posted rather frequently and had interacted with me extensively while I was paying a lot of attention to him.  That model let me see Cat as yes, super Scummy, but as Town-Scummy not Scum-Scummy - and suggested several differences in how he would act if he really were Scum and helped me believe that he probably could not behave as he was if he actually was Scum - that had to do with how he handled pressure and what he responded to and didn't react to.

But nothing so simple I could boil down into a list of 'tells', no.  I believe any such list would have to be made anew for each player, and would have to change as that player changed.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - Trouble at Sea
Post by: TheDarkStar on December 04, 2013, 08:53:56 pm

Quote from: Jim Groovester on December 04, 2013, 01:57:35 am

Quote from: Jim Groovester on December 03, 2013, 01:56:34 am

New People, let's say you are scum and your scum buddy is being scummy. And not just a little scummy, like, really, really scummy. What do you do?

Only one thing to do: Use him to gain trust by accusing him and calling for him to be lynched. If he is lynched, I am shown to be telling the truth and I gain trust. If no one believes me and I am lynched (or nightkilled), then people suspect him less.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - Trouble at Sea
Post by: TheDarkStar on December 04, 2013, 09:07:44 pm

Quote from: Imp on December 04, 2013, 06:33:36 am

TheDarkStar:  You've made 6 posts so far.  You've made a statement about makeinu being Scummy, applogized for an editing error, answered a question, told makeinu to act less Scummy in future, told makeinu you didn't trust him, he was appologizing a lot, and that if he was being honest you were sorry, and told us you were going off the forum for the day.

Do your posts and their content so far reflect how you intend to play for the rest of the game?  If so, what strategy are you using, to achieve what goals?  If not, what are you waiting for before you really start to play?

First, I am now answering the questions I missed. Second, I most likely will continue playing this way (ignoring the things from being new). I aim to figure out who the scum are and get them dead. I'll probably be looking at posts and checking for contradictions.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - Trouble at Sea
Post by: RangerCado on December 04, 2013, 09:11:00 pm

Giving one post everywhere as I am feeling really sick so nothing more from me until tomorrow morning at the earliest. Sorry guys.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - Trouble at Sea
Post by: TheDarkStar on December 04, 2013, 09:36:23 pm

Looking through the day's posts, Makeinu is trying too hard to be town. He has not made a real contribution so far, even though he claims he eventually will. He says he is town and definately not a doppelganger all the time (summed up by Persus), but as a townie he should assume that he does not need to say this, since he would have nothing to hide. I'm voting for him for trying too hard to fit in.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - Trouble at Sea
Post by: Persus13 on December 04, 2013, 09:39:41 pm

Quote from: TheDarkStar on December 04, 2013, 09:36:23 pm

Looking through the day's posts, Makeinu is trying too hard to be town. He has not made a real contribution so far, even though he claims he eventually will. He says he is town and definately not a doppelganger all the time (summed up by Persus), but as a townie he should assume that he does not need to say this, since he would have nothing to hide. I'm voting for him for trying too hard to fit in.

Summed up by Caz you mean. I'm going to go back through Makeinu's posts again if I have time to see what you guys see.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - Trouble at Sea
Post by: Tiruin on December 04, 2013, 09:54:07 pm

PFP

Quote from: TheDarkStar on December 04, 2013, 09:36:23 pm

Looking through the day's posts, Makeinu is trying too hard to be town. He has not made a real contribution so far, even though he claims he eventually will. He says he is town and definately not a doppelganger all the time (summed up by Persus), but as a townie he should assume that he does not need to say this, since he would have nothing to hide. I'm voting for him for trying too hard to fit in.

I've to argue against this. He's blatantly trying 'too hard' to be town, by giving the basic notion of a townie. 'Hey guys, I'm town. Not a dopp (SO YOU'RE AN ALIEN), but town'.
...
makeinu: Any reason why you're repeating that idea that it approaches ad nauseum for those who observe? 'Tis a null tell for me due to how its worded in context..and how you 'speak' per se, but I'm really wondering why you did that.

Caz

Quote from: Caz on December 04, 2013, 01:39:45 pm

Quote from: Tiruin on December 04, 2013, 08:56:33 am

And..really. Just plain foul? You take Max' word when I haven't even answered anything of Persus or whatever he has given?!

Meh, I suppose I should write down my thought process better. Caz no rite gud.

*Tap tap tappity tap. Fingers tap on the wooden table.*

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - Trouble at Sea
Post by: makeinu on December 04, 2013, 10:09:19 pm

Quote from: Imp on December 04, 2013, 06:50:07 pm

What did you think about the differences you noticed then, and how different does this game feel to you than the games you read?

I did notice the differences, but they didn't strike me as huge ones from the outside. Being in the game, there's a decided difference. I've already explained what's different, so I won't repeat it.

---

Quote from: TheDarkStar on December 04, 2013, 09:36:23 pm

as a townie he should assume that he does not need to say this, since he would have nothing to hide.

I never assume there's nothing to hide, especially when being asked specifically about my allegiances to town or scum.

---

Caz, Persus: do you find it often the case that claims of town alignment are typically scum-tells?

Quote from: Caz on December 04, 2013, 07:04:34 pm

Put words into my mouth more, bro. My reasoning for my vote against makeinu is that his excuses are flimsy. You think scum isn't up to exaggerating irl issues to keep suspicion off them? I see people excusing their lack of coherent posts by lack of time, tiredness, whatever. Not all of them flip town. To be honest, making an excuse is almost admitting guilt.

Quote from: Persus13 on December 04, 2013, 07:12:22 pm

Yeah I think Makeinu is scummy because of his constant town-claims, but I think that lying about RL in Mafia is poor form for scum and so tend to believe it when mentioned by people as an excuse. My opinion differs in that I tend to give some leeway to people who seem like they're scum D1 because its easy to mess up, especially if your not scum and not checking your posts for errors.

Spoiler: Real life issues: (click to show/hide)

I had a stroke several months back.

Not the kind of news you expect to hear in your mid-40's, when you're active and healthy, but this was a very specific type of stroke that most typically strikes people fitting that exact description.

One of the medications I'm on, Coumadin, is a blood thinner and anti-clotting agent, and is very bio-reactive. Changing diet and other drugs can have very strange reactions, but it's necessary so the damage to my artery can heal.

---

Quote from: Persus13 on December 04, 2013, 05:41:51 pm

Questions get information, information gives more chance of a scumtell (or lack of one) showing up, which helps find scum. I don't really understand the What if questions much myself, but they seem to help other people. What are your thoughts on the Max, Caz, Tiruin, and me debate?

I'm having a hard time separating my thalamic, lizard-brain, emotional gut responses from the logical analysis attempts. On the one hand, the lizard-brain is all "OMGUS U GUYS!!11!", and I know part of that stems from the accusations against me. I'm also still uncertain what questions it is that I haven't answered. I know that some are not happy with the answers I've provided, but that's a different matter entirely.

On the other hand, the rational mammal-brain says Max and Caz are acting scummy. I'm not convinced of the genuineness of their replies and arguments with you and Tiruin.

But how much of any of that comes from which brain, I am not comfortable saying yet.

As for "trying too hard", I'll simply point out that three of the four "town-claims" Caz lists were in direct response to questions directed at me, if you go back and take them IN context, rather than OUT.

OOC: I have to add that I particularly like the quoting mechanism on this forum.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - Trouble at Sea
Post by: Persus13 on December 04, 2013, 10:19:43 pm

Claiming town when specifically asked is fine. Using some variant of I'm town to prove a point is generally considered okay. What's scummy is how frequent you've been claiming town, although you also are being attacked by three different people, which should count for something.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - Trouble at Sea
Post by: makeinu on December 04, 2013, 10:24:36 pm

I don't generally make a habit of town-claiming.

More generally, you didn't answer the question:

Quote

Caz, Persus: do you find it often the case that claims of town alignment are typically scum-tells?

I'm not trying to make a deal of that, I'm genuinely curious, as I have found it not a reliable scum-tell. Newbies use it frequently, those under attack typically pull it out, and rarely have I seen scum try to use it as WIFOM. So, I'm seriously wondering how you've seen it before, as an indicator of anything,really.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - Trouble at Sea
Post by: Tiruin on December 04, 2013, 10:28:23 pm

Quote from: Tiruin on December 04, 2013, 09:54:07 pm

makeinu: Any reason why you're repeating that idea that it approaches ad nauseum for those who observe? 'Tis a null tell for me due to how its worded in context..and how you 'speak' per se, but I'm really wondering why you did that.

Makeinu: :)
*points up*
(also x__x hope you're ok given a history of stroke..argh goodness.)

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - Trouble at Sea
Post by: makeinu on December 04, 2013, 10:34:04 pm

Understood.

And thanks. I'm lucky, it wasn't too bad, considering, and I'm recovering well. I'm just frustrated, at times.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - Trouble at Sea
Post by: Tiruin on December 04, 2013, 10:37:35 pm

Erm, that was a question..
...Unless I missed an answer to it.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - Trouble at Sea
Post by: Caz on December 04, 2013, 10:38:40 pm

Quote from: TheDarkStar on December 04, 2013, 09:36:23 pm

Looking through the day's posts, Makeinu is trying too hard to be town. He has not made a real contribution so far, even though he claims he eventually will. He says he is town and definately not a doppelganger all the time (summed up by Persus), but as a townie he should assume that he does not need to say this, since he would have nothing to hide. I'm voting for him for trying too hard to fit in.

It's easy to come to a conclusion that's been summed up by someone else, huh? Are you going to do your own scumhunting or are you content to lynch the current favourite?

Quote from: Tiruin on December 04, 2013, 09:54:07 pm

*Tap tap tappity tap. Fingers tap on the wooden table.*

  ???

Quote from: makeinu on December 04, 2013, 10:09:19 pm

Spoiler: Real life issues: (click to show/hide)

I had a stroke several months back.

Not the kind of news you expect to hear in your mid-40's, when you're active and healthy, but this was a very specific type of stroke that most typically strikes people fitting that exact description.

One of the medications I'm on, Coumadin, is a blood thinner and anti-clotting agent, and is very bio-reactive. Changing diet and other drugs can have very strange reactions, but it's necessary so the damage to my artery can heal.

Eh, okay, I'll give you a pass on the excuse, but this still doesn't solve why you find it necessary to reassure us that you're town so often. Here's hoping your health improves so you can continue to play many long mafia games with us, as well.

Quote from: makeinu on December 04, 2013, 10:24:36 pm

I'm not trying to make a deal of that, I'm genuinely curious, as I have found it not a reliable scum-tell. Newbies use it frequently, those under attack typically pull it out, and rarely have I seen scum try to use it as WIFOM. So, I'm seriously wondering how you've seen it before, as an indicator of anything,really.

Yeah, generally noob-scum are more concerned with keeping up their image than anything else. They make a superficial attempt at scumhunting while their real plan is to make themselves look so uber townie that no one would think of lynching them. I don't think it's the best tactic, but it's used pretty commonly.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - Trouble at Sea
Post by: makeinu on December 04, 2013, 10:40:01 pm

Sorry, I took that as pointing to an answer...  ::)

Once was my own doing, the other times in defense against attacks/accusations against me. Too much? I guess so, whatever.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - Trouble at Sea
Post by: makeinu on December 04, 2013, 10:41:07 pm

Quote from: Caz on December 04, 2013, 10:38:40 pm

Yeah, generally noob-scum are more concerned with keeping up their image than anything else. They make a superficial attempt at scumhunting while their real plan is to make themselves look so uber townie that no one would think of lynching them. I don't think it's the best tactic, but it's used pretty commonly.

Sadly, I have to admit I'm better at playing scum than town...

I probably shouldn't admit that...

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - Trouble at Sea
Post by: Caz on December 04, 2013, 10:42:05 pm

Sinlessmoon, Toaster: Are you still with us?

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - Trouble at Sea
Post by: Tiruin on December 04, 2013, 10:42:16 pm

Quote from: Caz on December 04, 2013, 10:38:40 pm

Quote from: Tiruin on December 04, 2013, 09:54:07 pm

*Tap tap tappity tap. Fingers tap on the wooden table.*

  ???

...I should really be more direct.
Rewording: Anything to say about what I quoted there?

Quote from: makeinu on December 04, 2013, 10:40:01 pm

Sorry, I took that as pointing to an answer...  ::)

Once was my own doing, the other times in defense against attacks/accusations against me. Too much? I guess so, whatever.

So why were you using those statements? To dissuade the rest?

Quote from: makeinu on December 04, 2013, 10:41:07 pm

Quote from: Caz on December 04, 2013, 10:38:40 pm

Yeah, generally noob-scum are more concerned with keeping up their image than anything else. They make a superficial attempt at scumhunting while their real plan is to make themselves look so uber townie that no one would think of lynching them. I don't think it's the best tactic, but it's used pretty commonly.

Sadly, I have to admit I'm better at playing scum than town...

I probably shouldn't admit that...

...Um.
..
...
-_-
Yeah you probably shouldn't. And think before posting. While I could see WIFOM, I see flailing.

PPE GAHGHGH

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - Trouble at Sea
Post by: Caz on December 04, 2013, 10:43:25 pm

Quote from: makeinu on December 04, 2013, 10:41:07 pm

Sadly, I have to admit I'm better at playing scum than town...

I probably shouldn't admit that...

Are you townclaiming again? I swear I'll put my vote back on you -_- I will, damnit.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - Trouble at Sea
Post by: TheDarkStar on December 04, 2013, 10:45:16 pm

makeinu has shown that he is not just making excuses, so, while I still suspect him, Unvote for now. We need someone to check him eventually (and hopefully soon) to see what he is. I'd consider is reason to lynch if he came up as a townie based on the fact that, while he claims town, he carefully does not claim townie.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - Trouble at Sea
Post by: Caz on December 04, 2013, 10:49:03 pm

Quote from: Tiruin on December 04, 2013, 09:54:07 pm

Quote from: Caz on December 04, 2013, 01:39:45 pm

Quote from: Tiruin on December 04, 2013, 08:56:33 am

And..really. Just plain foul? You take Max' word when I haven't even answered anything of Persus or whatever he has given?!

*scratches brain* Didn't you answer a post directed from Persus to Max before Max himself had a chance to answer? Or is Max making up shit?

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - Trouble at Sea
Post by: TheDarkStar on December 04, 2013, 10:50:37 pm

Quote from: TheDarkStar on December 04, 2013, 10:45:16 pm

makeinu has shown that he is not just making excuses, so, while I still suspect him, Unvote for now. We need someone to check him eventually (and hopefully soon) to see what he is. I'd consider is reason to lynch if he came up as a townie based on the fact that, while he claims town, he carefully does not claim townie.

Well, I suspect him a lot more now with his fifth town claim. He's close enough to me voting for him again that I'll probably do it next time he is suspicious.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - Trouble at Sea
Post by: Toaster on December 04, 2013, 10:51:51 pm

Words started running together partway though writing this, so it's not as detailed or as insightful as I'd like it to be.  I will need to go back through.

Ranger:

Quote from: RangerCado on December 03, 2013, 11:22:07 am

Toaster:

Quote from: Toaster on December 03, 2013, 10:06:40 am

Since you're questioning everyone, how will you cope with the loss of focus your questions have?

Loss of focus? How so? If your asking why i'm not pursuing everyone after asking everyone a question, its because it would be too much pressure on me to keep 20 different lines of thought in my head. I ask them as an opener to try and find something to go off early. Right now, i've found makeinu to be suspicious and am pursuing it, hence possible loss of focus. Also, what would be your criteria for tracking someone?

I dislike the opener of asking everyone a question.  If you ask everyone, there's no shock of "Oh crap attention is on me" because it's on everyone.  You're not putting any pressure, and are not likely to get anything useful out of it.

Do you mean track in general or Advanced Tracking Devices?  If you mean a reporter-style track, I'd mainly track people I thought were scummy.  If they went to someone who turned up dead in the morning, so much the better.  For ATD, since they're placed in the day (and you have two D1) I'd pick people I had trouble reading.  That way I would have some basis on whether their eventual claims matched to reality (and if they visited people who turned up dead.)



Makeinu:

Quote from: makeinu on December 03, 2013, 11:57:30 am

Correction: it's not helping anyone else get anywhere. It gives me a baseline to work from.

For instance. Assume, for the moment, I survive until tomorrow. Further assume that overnight, I come up with strong evidence of another player's scum role. Having now made baseless accusations, I can compare and contrast the reaction to that against a factual accusation.

The issue with this is you imply you need role results to really nail someone down as scum.  What if you're actually vanilla or some role that isn't investigative?  You need to have a solid day game to use as your primary weapon.

Quote from: Jim Groovester on December 04, 2013, 01:57:35 am

Quote from: makeinu on December 03, 2013, 09:27:47 pm

So, it turns out I may have been a little manic yesterday, due to an unforeseen drug interaction. And by may have, I mean was completely. And by a little, I mean a lot.

I don't know the circumstances of what happened, but I fully recommend that you do not play under the influence.

It's just a bad idea.

Jim is correct. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=124335.msg4223421#msg4223421)


Persus:

Quote from: Persus13 on December 03, 2013, 05:46:38 pm

Quote from: Imp on December 03, 2013, 01:23:37 am

Persus13:  Pretend you are Town and have a day inspect, and you need to use it right now (immediately after you read this question) or it will be lost.  Who do you pick to inspect and why did you pick that person, or do you pick to lose your inspect and why?

I'd inspect makeinu. I'm not sure what he is and I'd like to know. What type of inspect?

Why seek clarification after you answer the question?


Imp:

Quote from: Imp on December 03, 2013, 08:26:59 pm

Toaster:

Quote from: Toaster on December 03, 2013, 10:06:40 am

Why did you cast a wide net and question everyone instead of focusing your attention?

I think in wholes.  How people respond to me and interact with each other will focus my attention for me.  When people seem Scummy they sure do get my attention.  When not, I think I should talk to everyone as best as I can.  There's only 11 of us.  I've learned how to count to 10 other people in a Mafia game; ten isn't actually 'a lot' to me anymore.

I'm also worried that if I just look at X people, then I'm going to pick the Scummiest of that subset as the highest probability of their being Scum.  That happened to me in the now finished BM42.  I looked for two Scum, picked out two super Scummy players D1 and believed I'd solved the whole thing.  Town did win in the end, but neither of my two 'obv-Scum' picks were Scum.  So I'm watching everyone as best I can.

Fair enough.  As I said to Ranger, that style irks me- but if it works for you, so be it.

Would you do the same thing if this was a nineteen player game?

Quote from: Imp on December 03, 2013, 08:26:59 pm

Quote from: Toaster on December 03, 2013, 10:06:40 am

I'm going to avast this ship until we sail over some land lubbers.

The way you use avast there - what does avast mean to you?

(http://www.arrrrrr.com/corsair.jpg)

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Entirely in jest, if that doesn't make it obvious.

Quote from: Imp on December 04, 2013, 06:33:36 am

Toaster:  You've asked two players questions about their questioning of all other players, and each of your questions has included a negatively-directed statement about those players lack focus because of questioning everyone.

Quote from: Toaster on December 03, 2013, 10:06:40 am

Ranger:
Since you're questioning everyone, how will you cope with the loss of focus your questions have?

Imp:
Why did you cast a wide net and question everyone instead of focusing your attention?

Please explain why you percieve questioning everyone as preventing focused attention.

I think I adequately explained this in my response to Ranger.  I did it to both of you because it's something I see many players doing these days, and I'm trying to dissuade it.

Quote from: Imp on December 04, 2013, 06:33:36 am

Quote from: Toaster on December 03, 2013, 10:06:40 am

For the record, I am 100% for claiming Kook status first post, and extend this to regular miller in any game I play.

Why?  Furthermore, one possible reaction I imagine is voting you from suspicion that you are not a miller, but a Scum claiming to be a miller.  How would you handle that so that your claim and the reactions it provoked on D1 served Town? 

Short answer is I found scum (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=77045.msg1968729#msg1968729) the first time (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=77045.msg1968678#msg1968678) I tried this.

To elaborate, claiming it the very first post of your game- and making it your meta- does several things.  If it's a true claim, then it's right out there in the open for everyone to know.  It tells people that alignment inspecting you will return a scum result, so go inspect elsewhere.  The big reason is in opposition, though.  If you are one- or are scum- claiming Kook after someone claims a guilty inspection on you is very unlikely to convince people not to lynch you.  The goal is to turn it into a null tell; something that is acknowledged and then moved on from.  The first time I did it, one of the dopps made a huge issue out of it and tried to get me lynched over it.  I eventually figured this out, but the dopp team had a vig and we were pretty much screwed anyway.


Caz:  Why did you vote three times for two different people in this post (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=133676.msg4810033#msg4810033)?  This isn't a BYOR so I know there's no role shenanigans going on here.

Quote from: Caz on December 04, 2013, 10:42:05 pm

Sinlessmoon, Toaster: Are you still with us?

Why'd you vote him over me?

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - Trouble at Sea
Post by: Tiruin on December 04, 2013, 10:55:57 pm

Quote from: TheDarkStar on December 04, 2013, 10:45:16 pm

makeinu has shown that he is not just making excuses, so, while I still suspect him, Unvote for now. We need someone to check him eventually (and hopefully soon) to see what he is. I'd consider is reason to lynch if he came up as a townie based on the fact that, while he claims town, he carefully does not claim townie.

...Dude, we need quotes to follow you fluidly. I don't see any basis on how you arrived to 'makeinu isn't just making excuses' without your viewpoint--meaning put down those Quotes.

Also are you giving out orders in public? Why're you doing that--and why the follow-up reasoning?

Quote from: TheDarkStar on December 04, 2013, 10:50:37 pm

Quote from: TheDarkStar on December 04, 2013, 10:45:16 pm

makeinu has shown that he is not just making excuses, so, while I still suspect him, Unvote for now. We need someone to check him eventually (and hopefully soon) to see what he is. I'd consider is reason to lynch if he came up as a townie based on the fact that, while he claims town, he carefully does not claim townie.

Well, I suspect him a lot more now with his fifth town claim. He's close enough to me voting for him again that I'll probably do it next time he is suspicious.

...What caused the fluctuating suspicion?

---

---

---

Quote from: Caz on December 04, 2013, 10:49:03 pm

Quote from: Tiruin on December 04, 2013, 09:54:07 pm

Quote from: Caz on December 04, 2013, 01:39:45 pm

Quote from: Tiruin on December 04, 2013, 08:56:33 am

And..really. Just plain foul? You take Max' word when I haven't even answered anything of Persus or whatever he has given?!

*scratches brain* Didn't you answer a post directed from Persus to Max before Max himself had a chance to answer? Or is Max making up shit?

That's what you're accusing me of! D:

Quote from: Caz on December 04, 2013, 08:22:26 am

Quote from: Max White on December 03, 2013, 06:58:51 pm

You were very quick to jump in on a question directed at me.

True, jumping in the middle of questions is a foul. The people call foul! Death to Tiruin!

I mean, look at what you said to me. If this vote isn't an appearance of your suspicion, then the only logical note is you're emphasizing for humor. Which, while comedic, is confusing.
Also that was a question on how you saw Max' words without looking into their context. It seems you're already concluding without any visible basis but 'I agree with Max. Tiruin is scummy for doing x'.
How is my action there, scummy?

PPE: Toaster:
I got to get that keyboard someday.
PFP can't post until 3 more horus or so

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - Trouble at Sea
Post by: TheDarkStar on December 04, 2013, 11:01:21 pm

Quote from: Tiruin on December 04, 2013, 10:55:57 pm

...What caused the fluctuating suspicion?

He made a new post timed so that I posted and then read his post. He is not out of suspicion and was not ever out of it.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - Trouble at Sea
Post by: makeinu on December 04, 2013, 11:05:55 pm

Quote from: Caz on December 04, 2013, 10:43:25 pm

Quote from: makeinu on December 04, 2013, 10:41:07 pm

Sadly, I have to admit I'm better at playing scum than town...

I probably shouldn't admit that...

Are you townclaiming again? I swear I'll put my vote back on you -_- I will, damnit.

Nononononono not at all. Idle conversation only. Honest Injun!

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - Trouble at Sea
Post by: Caz on December 04, 2013, 11:09:42 pm

Quote from: Tiruin on December 04, 2013, 10:55:57 pm

I mean, look at what you said to me. If this vote isn't an appearance of your suspicion, then the only logical note is you're emphasizing for humor. Which, while comedic, is confusing.
Also that was a question on how you saw Max' words without looking into their context. It seems you're already concluding without any visible basis but 'I agree with Max. Tiruin is scummy for doing x'.
How is my action there, scummy?

Oh, right. I have the satisfactory proof, I'm just wondering why you're arguing against it so much. I wasn't going solely on what Max said. To me, interrupting questions is scummy because it could modify the answer of who the question is posed to, without giving them a chance to respond as they would naturally. Basically the interrupter is adding their own information to the process, thus influencing it for their own goals. Why would a town player want to interfere with someone else's scumhunting?

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - Trouble at Sea
Post by: Caz on December 04, 2013, 11:10:50 pm

Quote from: Toaster on December 04, 2013, 10:51:51 pm

Caz:  Why did you vote three times for two different people in this post (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=133676.msg4810033#msg4810033)?  This isn't a BYOR so I know there's no role shenanigans going on here.

I don't make the posts in one piece, as I'm reading through the thread more pieces get cobbled onto it. I should probably read it all through first, then reply post-by-post, but holy hell am I too lazy for that crap.

Quote from: Toaster on December 04, 2013, 10:51:51 pm

Why'd you vote him over me?

He's earlier in the alphabet.



^ duh I posted a post I made after this post earlier because I can't tab. *post now*

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - Trouble at Sea
Post by: TheDarkStar on December 04, 2013, 11:14:16 pm

Quote from: makeinu on December 04, 2013, 11:05:55 pm

Quote from: Caz on December 04, 2013, 10:43:25 pm

Quote from: makeinu on December 04, 2013, 10:41:07 pm

Sadly, I have to admit I'm better at playing scum than town...

I probably shouldn't admit that...

Are you townclaiming again? I swear I'll put my vote back on you -_- I will, [expletive].

Nononononono not at all. Idle conversation only. Honest Injun!

Idle conversation is still made for a reason, and this is definitely a townclaim (yet again). You shouldn't need to spam townclaims on day one, since it's not like anyone is going to be able to prove otherwise if you stay quiet. However, early townclaiming spam like that shows that you are trying to seem as pro-town as possible when playing scum. While some of them have legitimate reason, you just added another one that wouldn't be done if you were truly a townie.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - Trouble at Sea
Post by: makeinu on December 04, 2013, 11:19:48 pm

Quote from: TheDarkStar on December 04, 2013, 11:14:16 pm

Idle conversation is still made for a reason

No, sometimes it's just what it says on the box.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - Trouble at Sea
Post by: Persus13 on December 04, 2013, 11:23:05 pm

Quote from: Toaster on December 04, 2013, 10:51:51 pm

Quote from: Jim Groovester on December 04, 2013, 01:57:35 am

Quote from: makeinu on December 03, 2013, 09:27:47 pm

So, it turns out I may have been a little manic yesterday, due to an unforeseen drug interaction. And by may have, I mean was completely. And by a little, I mean a lot.

I don't know the circumstances of what happened, but I fully recommend that you do not play under the influence.

It's just a bad idea.

Jim is correct. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=124335.msg4223421#msg4223421)

This just made my day and caused me to burst out laughing, thanks.

Quote from: Toaster on December 04, 2013, 10:51:51 pm

Persus:

Quote from: Persus13 on December 03, 2013, 05:46:38 pm

Quote from: Imp on December 03, 2013, 01:23:37 am

Persus13:  Pretend you are Town and have a day inspect, and you need to use it right now (immediately after you read this question) or it will be lost.  Who do you pick to inspect and why did you pick that person, or do you pick to lose your inspect and why?

I'd inspect makeinu. I'm not sure what he is and I'd like to know. What type of inspect?

Why seek clarification after you answer the question?

Because often times my posts are stream-of-consciousness where I go through a selection and answer questions or comment on stuff that I only occasionally order.

For reference, this was the response Tiruin made to my question:

Quote from: Tiruin on December 03, 2013, 08:05:09 am

Quickpost
Persus

Quote from: Persus13 on December 03, 2013, 08:02:24 am

And I just got up and the thread is 4 pages longer. Uh-oh.

Max: Why are you tunneling someone D1 for something that isn't really suspicious again?

I'll answer more questions later.

How is he tunneling and how is that something not that really suspicious?

Can someone explain to me why this seems unreasonable?

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - Trouble at Sea
Post by: makeinu on December 04, 2013, 11:32:12 pm

Quote from: TheDarkStar on December 04, 2013, 10:45:16 pm

I'd consider is reason to lynch if he came up as a townie based on the fact that, while he claims town, he carefully does not claim townie.

Bad grammar aside, which I'll attribute to a typo, this confuses the hell out of me. Explain the bolded part, please.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - Trouble at Sea
Post by: Tiruin on December 05, 2013, 01:21:51 am

Max: Rerailing it.

Quote from: Tiruin on December 03, 2013, 08:05:09 am

Quickpost
Persus

Quote from: Persus13 on December 03, 2013, 08:02:24 am

And I just got up and the thread is 4 pages longer. Uh-oh.

Max: Why are you tunneling someone D1 for something that isn't really suspicious again?

I'll answer more questions later.

How is he tunneling and how is that something not that really suspicious?

How does this 'intervene' with what would've been your proposed question? I believe you'd be asking 'How am I tunneling someone', however that would be totally weird given him accusing there as he has a reason in bold.

How can that intervene, or "Defend", any prospect of stopping scumhunting?

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - Trouble at Sea
Post by: Imp on December 05, 2013, 07:16:21 am

Extend.  There's about 13 hours to scheduled end of day.

Sinless hasn't posted in 52 hours.  Perhaps he jumped ship?

Jim and Max both haven't posted in 28 hours.  Maybe they repaired a lifeboat and took off together after Sinless?  (Yeah, finals week, alright.  30 seconds for typing extend going to lower the GPA?)

Meph, prods for those who may need prods, please?

And Rangercado's ill, but didn't ask for an extension.  Why didn't you ask for an extension, Ranger?

---

Toaster, your 'answer' to my question was amusing and somewhat fits theme.

(http://i44.tinypic.com/1okbgg.jpg)

I am wondering if your 'peg' is too heavy for you or something.  I was going to study your 'avast' answer a bit and try and figure out if it had a coded hidden meaning or something, but there was your spoiler to consider too.

So are you telling me that you and Jim are just joking about the fluff?  What purpose do you believe that serves in this game for you or him?

Or are you telling me in an artistic and amusing fashion that you're just not going to answer my question?

Because you didn't answer it, and you've made two comments to Jim this game that, other than sounding themey, actually are linguistic nonsense.

Quote from: Toaster on December 03, 2013, 12:02:37 am

Jim:  Arrr.  Be ye a swarthy enough pirate to see us out of this mess?

Translated into modern English, you asked him if his skin's dark enough to see us out of this mess.

Quote from: Jim Groovester on December 03, 2013, 01:56:34 am

Aye. Be ye a seaworthy enough sailor to smoothly sail to safety?

He answered you -yes-, but his follow up question uses language in a sensible fashion, without logical contradiction.  Your reply is even more nonsensical than your first Pirate theme question:

Quote from: Toaster on December 03, 2013, 10:06:40 am

I'm going to avast this ship until we sail over some land lubbers.

That seems to be a no in reply to his question - because you just said you were stopping the ship until you sail over some newbies (assuming land-lubbers in context are those without Mafia-legs yet).

What are you doing with this?  Why are you doing it?  Why didn't you answer my question, and why did you throw a 'labeled as a joke' joke at me in place of an answer?

---

Quote from: Toaster on December 04, 2013, 10:51:51 pm

I think I adequately explained this in my response to Ranger.  I did it to both of you because it's something I see many players doing these days, and I'm trying to dissuade it.

---

I dislike the opener of asking everyone a question.  If you ask everyone, there's no shock of "Oh crap attention is on me" because it's on everyone.  You're not putting any pressure, and are not likely to get anything useful out of it.

How much do you believe of what I have quoted above?  Am I understanding you correctly - you are claiming that you feel that people do not experience pressure from questions so long as other people are also being questioned?  How much of this claim do you believe is your opinion, and how much is absolute fact?

What you're saying about claiming Miller immediately does make sense to me.  Thank you for that clear explanation.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - Trouble at Sea
Post by: Mephansteras on December 05, 2013, 10:19:36 am

The Whiteboard
makeinu: RangerCado
Max White: Persus13, Tiruin
Sinlessmoon: Caz
Tiruin: Max White

---

Day ends ~5pm Pacific Today. There is 1 vote to Extend the game to Friday. 4 votes total needed to Extend.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - Trouble at Sea
Post by: Tiruin on December 05, 2013, 10:47:43 am

Extend
Because unexpected thesis interview >_<

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - Trouble at Sea
Post by: makeinu on December 05, 2013, 10:57:13 am

Extend

Because I'm confused.

Good luck with the interview.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - Trouble at Sea
Post by: Tiruin on December 05, 2013, 10:59:45 am

..No, that's what held me up a few hours ago and its very late now and zzzz. >_>
Tired too much to think enough.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - Trouble at Sea
Post by: Jim Groovester on December 05, 2013, 12:10:03 pm

Extend. I will note that the thirty seconds it took to type this out is actually lowering my GPA.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - Trouble at Sea
Post by: Caz on December 05, 2013, 12:21:12 pm

Nothing new to go on. I guess we needed that extend.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - Trouble at Sea
Post by: Mephansteras on December 05, 2013, 01:30:55 pm

The Whiteboard
makeinu: RangerCado
Max White: Persus13, Tiruin
Sinlessmoon: Caz
Tiruin: Max White

---

Day has been Extended to ~5pm Pacific Friday.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - Trouble at Sea
Post by: RangerCado on December 05, 2013, 01:46:09 pm

((Going through the pages so i'm responding to what I see.))

Quote from: Persus13 on December 04, 2013, 07:12:22 pm

Quote from: Caz on December 04, 2013, 07:04:34 pm

Quote from: Persus13 on December 04, 2013, 05:22:28 pm

So your argument against makeinu is because of RL issues and because of Jim and Max attacking him. I see.

Put words into my mouth more, bro. My reasoning for my vote against makeinu is that his excuses are flimsy. You think scum isn't up to exaggerating irl issues to keep suspicion off them? I see people excusing their lack of coherent posts by lack of time, tiredness, whatever. Not all of them flip town. To be honest, making an excuse is almost admitting guilt. If you don't agree to that, I'll reference makeinu's frequent assurances to us that he is town. (After all, how else would we know?)

Quote from: makeinu on December 04, 2013, 11:18:58 am

Regardless, as before, you're free to be suspicious based on your read of my actions, but your suspicion is misplaced. Barring my death and a role/alignment flip, however, I can't prove that you're wrong.

Quote from: makeinu on December 04, 2013, 09:17:35 am

I know my wincon and alignment. Having already been pinged as suspicious for previously throwing out assertions to them, I refuse to further that by repeating them in every post to defend myself. At the risk of being pinged for such again, however, I will do so here. My wincon requires eliminating threats to the town.

Quote from: makeinu on December 03, 2013, 09:31:28 am

I'm not a dopp

Quote from: makeinu on December 03, 2013, 03:14:27 am

I'm not going to role claim, not on day one, but I am town.

Yeah I think Makeinu is scummy because of his constant town-claims, but I think that lying about RL in Mafia is poor form for scum and so tend to believe it when mentioned by people as an excuse. My opinion differs in that I tend to give some leeway to people who seem like they're scum D1 because its easy to mess up, especially if your not scum and not checking your posts for errors.

This is mostly my thinking of makeinu right now. Too many "I'm TOWN!" claims. Its almost as if he's trying to prove it to himself as well as to everyone. He may be a third-party, but his scum hunting isn't anywhere near what I would call skilled from someone who claims to have played forum-based mafia before. And though seems to be trying, I find no way that it is working.

Also Caz, there is the thing where someone will lay out everything wrong with a person in their case, then it becomes difficult to say anything new and in most cases people will have to either agree, or have to find a way to restate others opinions. Though DarkStar not previously having a case is suspicious.

Quote from: TheDarkStar on December 04, 2013, 10:45:16 pm

makeinu has shown that he is not just making excuses, so, while I still suspect him, Unvote for now. We need someone to check him eventually (and hopefully soon) to see what he is. I'd consider is reason to lynch if he came up as a townie based on the fact that, while he claims town, he carefully does not claim townie.

...Okay Dark, this seems a rather quick vote change. I would, and have, kept the pressure up and work more towards pressing him about the things besides his excuses. Why such a quick vote switch with no other questions thrown out?

Quote from: TheDarkStar on December 04, 2013, 11:01:21 pm

Quote from: Tiruin on December 04, 2013, 10:55:57 pm

...What caused the fluctuating suspicion?

He made a new post timed so that I posted and then read his post. He is not out of suspicion and was not ever out of it.

Okay... but you still didn't ask any questions and haven't pursued the suspicion at all previously from this post. Are you waiting for others to do the hunting for you Dark?


Toaster: Fair point. But the advantage of asking everyone a question is also there, as you get many responses which you can then find someone worth pursuing. I believe both options have their advantages, so I picked the one that works better for me style wise. And because you put it up for Imp, I might as well answer since its a similar situation. Yes, I would. My reasons are the same, I would just get less creative with my questions in the massive list of players.

Imp: Because I knew that after getting some sleep, I could get a post out. I also knew that if I wasn't, I would just post a single extend vote post... except the extend when through so theres little reason to now.

I will get another post out in the evening for me.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - Trouble at Sea
Post by: makeinu on December 05, 2013, 02:02:39 pm

Quote from: RangerCado on December 05, 2013, 01:46:09 pm

his scum hunting isn't anywhere near what I would call skilled from someone who claims to have played forum-based mafia before. And though seems to be trying, I find no way that it is working.

Let me see if I can wrap my head around this, because I'm not sure I'm understanding correctly. It seems to me that your argument is that I'm suspicious in part because my scum-hunting style belies claims to previous mafia game play based on the fact that I don't scum-hunt the way that you do.

Am I reading that correctly, RangerCado?

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - Trouble at Sea
Post by: Persus13 on December 05, 2013, 05:24:04 pm

Quote from: RangerCado on December 05, 2013, 01:46:09 pm

He may be a third-party, but his scum hunting isn't anywhere near what I would call skilled from someone who claims to have played forum-based mafia before. And though seems to be trying, I find no way that it is working.

I think the reason he seems scummy is because he has a different playstyle more than that he's scum.

Quote from: RangerCado on December 05, 2013, 01:46:09 pm

Though DarkStar not previously having a case is suspicious.

I'm not sure I understand your reasoning. Can you explain this better?

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - Trouble at Sea
Post by: makeinu on December 05, 2013, 06:17:05 pm

Quote from: Persus13 on December 05, 2013, 05:24:04 pm

Quote from: RangerCado on December 05, 2013, 01:46:09 pm

Though DarkStar not previously having a case is suspicious.

I'm not sure I understand your reasoning. Can you explain this better?

If I were to fuess, and it's only a guess, maybe referring to this?

Quote from: Caz on December 04, 2013, 10:38:40 pm

Quote from: TheDarkStar on December 04, 2013, 09:36:23 pm

Looking through the day's posts, Makeinu is trying too hard to be town. He has not made a real contribution so far, even though he claims he eventually will. He says he is town and definately not a doppelganger all the time (summed up by Persus), but as a townie he should assume that he does not need to say this, since he would have nothing to hide. I'm voting for him for trying too hard to fit in.

It's easy to come to a conclusion that's been summed up by someone else, huh? Are you going to do your own scumhunting or are you content to lynch the current favourite?

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - Trouble at Sea
Post by: TheDarkStar on December 05, 2013, 07:55:50 pm

Quote from: RangerCado on December 05, 2013, 01:46:09 pm

Though DarkStar not previously having a case is suspicious.

It's because I came a day late, after ~10 pages of the thread were already written and people had already started collections of evidence.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - Trouble at Sea
Post by: RangerCado on December 06, 2013, 12:37:27 am

makeinu: The reasons are:

-your mass of claims of being town. Even answering questions with it shouldn't have come up so much.

-Your hunting that I can't understand at all. I can appreciate different styles, as there are many, but I have yet to see much evidence or information unearthed by you.

If you could maybe explain how your hunting, or what your currently doing as hunting?

Darkstar: I know, but you haven't done any hunting at ALL from what i've seen. You answered 3 or 4 questions asked previously in the game, and made a statement about agreeing with Caz... but what else? And why the single posts and not 1 big one with all of them? And how have your pursued your current vote or others? Seriously, quote me 3 posts where you've done something in the way of hunting.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - Trouble at Sea
Post by: makeinu on December 06, 2013, 12:51:21 am

Quote from: RangerCado on December 06, 2013, 12:37:27 am

makeinu: The reasons are:

-your mass of claims of being town. Even answering questions with it shouldn't have come up so much.

-Your hunting that I can't understand at all. I can appreciate different styles, as there are many, but I have yet to see much evidence or information unearthed by you.

If you could maybe explain how your hunting, or what your currently doing as hunting?

I have to concede the first point. That's a genuine noob mistake I should've known better than to fall for, and yet, I did.

And I can't say as that I've gotten anything productive out of my efforts. Chalk that up to a learning curve on a new forum I guess.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - Trouble at Sea
Post by: Sinlessmoon on December 06, 2013, 01:05:44 am

Extend. I should probably post more instead of lurking.  :P

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - Trouble at Sea
Post by: Caz on December 06, 2013, 01:19:27 am

Quote from: Sinlessmoon on December 06, 2013, 01:05:44 am

Extend. I should probably post more instead of lurking.  :P

Probably.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - Trouble at Sea
Post by: Imp on December 06, 2013, 05:00:41 am

We have a maximum of two extends each game day.  I'm willing to see this day have its second extension, but by all that is, I sure hope people use E2 for more posting than E1 got.

makeinu:

Quote from: makeinu on December 06, 2013, 12:51:21 am

Quote from: RangerCado on December 06, 2013, 12:37:27 am

makeinu:
-Your hunting that I can't understand at all. I can appreciate different styles, as there are many, but I have yet to see much evidence or information unearthed by you.

If you could maybe explain how your hunting, or what your currently doing as hunting?

I can't say as that I've gotten anything productive out of my efforts. Chalk that up to a learning curve on a new forum I guess.

I haven't got much 'chalk' to spare for anyone.

I'm having trouble making a workable model of you.  You've posted a lot and interacted directly with me so, so that bothers me.  I think I'm seeing one of two things in your behavior:

Maybe#1:  You're genuinely trying and doing the best you can, though you walked into the game pretty frivolously (maybe because of unknown intoxication).  You've realized that your previous efforts haven't been good for you or your Wincon, that those efforts also were not appreciated - and now you don't know what to do.

If this is true, do something.  Reread your Wincon, reread the thread, and work to chase your Wincon.  If you're Town, that means Scumhunting.  I am not allowed to discuss unfinished games outside of that game's thread - neither is anyone else - but I will say that I've seen evidence that you do know how to Scumhunt.  You're not clueless or oblivious, nor do you appear to have no idea what to do or how to do it.

Maybe#2:  You have a very good idea what you're doing (with or without unknown intoxication).  Your actions have been chosen to get the sort of results you are getting, you're in the middle of chasing your Wincon, and that Wincon is very well served by your self described 'unproductive Scumhunting' and by the overall confusion and change of focus your earlier play has brought to the game.

If this is true, do whatever you please.  Your actions do not appear to be chasing a Town Wincon or even trying to pretend to be chasing one.  I don't know if you're Scum or some hostile third party but my imaginary model of you keeps telling me that it's acting like you because it wants to be lynched.  That slows me down from voting you, despite your bizarre and ... purposefully? ... unproductive play.

Are you a Spore Spreader, makeinu?

Quote from: makeinu on December 06, 2013, 12:51:21 am

-your mass of claims of being town. Even answering questions with it shouldn't have come up so much.

I have to concede the first point. That's a genuine noob mistake I should've known better than to fall for, and yet, I did.[/quote]

I can see a very good reason to answer questions, especially questions about 'why did you do something' with an explanation that essentially is 'I am Town'.

I'm a player who has in one game, especially during Lylo, -extensively- pressed the point that I was Town and had been all game, and that it -showed- because every action I'd taken in game, absolutely every one, both mistakes and successes; all were done in absolute support of the Town Wincon.  In that game I'd worked -very- hard to separate Scummy play from Scum play, and had picked out two players who I stated absolutely had to be Town because of their choices in game (both good choices and bad).  I worked to protect both from being lynched despite their Scumminess because of the evidence that I worked to uncover that they were Town, and unfortunately I was convincing enough that both of them were night killed, possibly because it was clear that neither was a possible lynch choice.

I'm a player who can see -very- good reason to stress that you are Town, if the circumstances are exactly right.  But that comes mid to late game if it ever does.  That comes after a history of play within one game, where you can show (if it's strong evidence... otherwise don't bother) that yes, you struggled to make smart and meaningful Town choices when you easily could have made Scummier ones with less work, and who could possibly blame you for those Scummy choices - they could be explained as 'obviously mistakes' by a player that meant well but misread clues.

You're not in that position at this time.  I've examined your play very closely and the only claim I see that you could make with that level of assersion is 'I don't know the culture of this Mafia forum'.  And I can't rule out Maybe#2.

---

---

Sinlessmoon:  Hey there.  Paying attention now?  It's play or die time for you.  Your choice.  In case you don't know what it means to 'play' (you don't need to know what it means to die, you will be shown that if you pick that path) what it means to 'play' is this:

Post more.  With content.  Work for your Wincon.  I don't need to know what your Wincon is to tell you that almost certainly requires one of two things from you:  1) That you find players that have hostile intent and are working for something other than a Town win; or 2) That you appear to be doing #1.

Right now you're doing some sort of 3)  Whatever you please, or nothing at all.

Passive lurking's when you just don't post for an extended period of time.  Active lurking's where you post, but your posts are a way of 'passing the time' and hiding that you're not doing anything 'productive' (see 1 or 2 for what productive means).

Not cool.  Furthermore, not allowed.  Play or die.  Understood?  I'm not sure you're Scum, so it might be a waste to lynch you.  But there are no free rides here.  You need to show us your methods so we can see your motives, and right now you're methods appear to be off singing the melody to the Smurf's Sing-Along (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=67dL1ISZKH8), which has absolutely nothing to do with this Mafia game.

Summary of my case against Sinlessmoon:

1)  The entirety of Sin's play this game is a mix of active and passive lurking.

2)  Made a claim that is utterly unsupported by their play to this point (lie):

Quote from: Sinlessmoon on December 03, 2013, 01:48:14 am

I'd much rather be active than be inactive. Unfortunately it seems like I should be even more active though. :P

3)  Assuming he answered this one honestly:

Quote from: Sinlessmoon on December 03, 2013, 02:03:09 am

Quote from: Jim Groovester on December 03, 2013, 01:56:34 am

New People, let's say you are scum and your scum buddy is being scummy. And not just a little scummy, like, really, really scummy. What do you do?

Try to distance myself as far away from that person as possible.

Sin is apparently distancing himself from the entire game as much as possible.

If that was an honest answer he gave to Jim (and Jim had to ask twice to get an answer), Sin's behavior this game may be because he sees a really, really Scummy teammate - but it also may be because he sees himself as being too Scummy to risk actually making real posts.  Sin can easily prove this one wrong (or true) by posting regularly with actual content for everyone to evaluate.  If Sin actually is Town, that's also the only way Sin can work towards a Town win (that hint is for you, Sin).

---

---

Toaster:
Realized I forgot to type my answer to this:

Quote from: Toaster on December 04, 2013, 10:51:51 pm

Would you do the same thing if this was a nineteen player game?

I don't know.  That's close to double the highest number of players I've played with yet... if you count within one game.  I've played three games simultaneously, and when I was, I was keeping track of more than 19 other players.  So tentative yes.

Would I ask every one of them an opening question in the same post?  Maybe not.  I might split my post into 2 or more.  I might skip some.

But that has nothing to do with this game.  This game has 10 players beside myself.  You're one of them.  And you're one that's claiming that 'talking to everyone causes lack of focus'.

Meanwhile you're tied with Sinlessmoon for lowest number of posts - though yours do have some content.  They also have a lot of stuff I don't understand as having any point to achieving any Wincon I know about - your questions and answers to Jim involving misused nautical terms.  Your joking answer to me about what you were doing with 'avast' specifically.

However, your posts also contain what appears to be Scumhunting (though a fairly low level of it), and you're also explaining things and teaching.

If you're Town, we need you.  Are you going to be participating more regularly and intently this game, or is what you're showing so far the best you're going to show this game?

---

---

Jim:
Is your GPA going to allow you to play this game, or are you going to have to lurk through it for at least the next week?  If lurking's the answer your GPA needs, are you going to replace or will we have to decide if we're better off lynching you to not without your input?

People have said they think really highly of your play.  You've complained before:

Quote from: Jim Groovester on August 02, 2011, 04:17:15 am

Quote from: Dariush on August 02, 2011, 03:56:25 am

Jim, which town role would you most fear as scum?

I've come to realize that I'm one of the default go-to targets that people have if they have no better reads. Getting randomly followed while I'm on the kill or inspected would suck, because no matter how well I play as scum, some jackass with a role and nothing better to do could catch me.

I think it was in Paranormal 19 Preboot, where I got tagged with a tracking device or two, and thought, "Fuck, I am never going to be able to do anything cool as scum ever again."

Have you reached a point where you just don't think you're going to get to do anything cool as any role now, because you're getting targeted period too much or something?  Where's your -play-, man?  Where's the skill and art that others have spoken of admiring you for?

I'm almost tempted to toss a 'knock knock joke' at you.  But if you 'answered' it I'd only be saying to you 'Can Jim come out and play, please?'.

---

---

Max:

So I checked your profile and your recent posts.  Starbound's a really addictive game, huh?

If you're Town, we need you.  In S6 D1 you focused almost obsessively on one player and you were Scum that game - you tunneled that one player for about half of D1, then more or less disappeared for the rest of that day.  You're quite aggressive this D1, but not really tunnelly - you've interacted intently with both makeinu and Tiruin, though you haven't really mutually interacted with anyone else other than to answer questions.  And you've disappeared about half way through the day.

I'm not sure how much of this is just how you play, but if you're Town, you're letting us down.  There was a reason I wrote to you, back when I was reading all the previous Supernatural games.  And that reason was because I loved how you played.  Where's your fire now?  Where's your determination, what you had in that game, and what triggered in me the urge to write to you?  Mafia 'has what it takes' too, but you only get out of it what you put in.

Knock knock, Max.  Can you come back and play?

---

---

Sinlessmoon, Max, and Jim, this is your reminder that this post (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=133676.msg4809928#msg4809928) contains questions from me that you three have not answered yet.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - Trouble at Sea
Post by: Toaster on December 06, 2013, 11:34:16 am

Extend.  I'll probably need tonight at least to get what I need to do done here.


Caz:

Quote from: Caz on December 04, 2013, 11:10:50 pm

I don't make the posts in one piece, as I'm reading through the thread more pieces get cobbled onto it. I should probably read it all through first, then reply post-by-post, but holy hell am I too lazy for that crap.

Quote from: Toaster on December 04, 2013, 10:51:51 pm

Why'd you vote him over me?

He's earlier in the alphabet.

Fair enough.


Imp:  I'm not sure if you're being serious or not.  If you are, know that none of my pirate references were serious.

I'm doing it because pirates are inherently funny.  If you disagree, I'll have to start lacing all my posts with pirate jokes.

Quote from: Imp on December 05, 2013, 07:16:21 am

Quote from: Toaster on December 04, 2013, 10:51:51 pm

I think I adequately explained this in my response to Ranger.  I did it to both of you because it's something I see many players doing these days, and I'm trying to dissuade it.

---

I dislike the opener of asking everyone a question.  If you ask everyone, there's no shock of "Oh crap attention is on me" because it's on everyone.  You're not putting any pressure, and are not likely to get anything useful out of it.

How much do you believe of what I have quoted above?  Am I understanding you correctly - you are claiming that you feel that people do not experience pressure from questions so long as other people are also being questioned?  How much of this claim do you believe is your opinion, and how much is absolute fact?

Let me preface this by saying that yes, this is all my opinion.  I believe that people give you a more genuine reaction (or perhaps more accurately can't lie as well) if they feel under pressure.  If the police are interviewing twenty suspects at once, the guilty man would feel less pressure than a one-on-one situation with a light shining in his face.

It's really nit-picky, since it's something I've seen happen more often and I tried to stem the tide of it a bit.

Quote from: Imp on December 06, 2013, 05:00:41 am

If you're Town, we need you.  Are you going to be participating more regularly and intently this game, or is what you're showing so far the best you're going to show this game?

I certainly hope this isn't my best.  I fell asleep early last night and didn't get that post in I wanted.



Getting this out for now- more later.

Title: Paranormal 23
Post by: Mephansteras on December 06, 2013, 01:37:23 pm

The Whiteboard
makeinu: RangerCado
Max White: Persus13, Tiruin
Sinlessmoon: Caz, Imp
Tiruin: Max White

---

Day ends ~5 PM Pacific Today. There are 3 votes to Extend the day to Monday. 4 Votes total needed to Extend.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - Trouble at Sea
Post by: makeinu on December 06, 2013, 01:41:07 pm

Extend

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - Trouble at Sea
Post by: Imp on December 06, 2013, 02:58:23 pm

Toaster:

I'm being serious, but you might be partially misunderstanding me too.  And maybe I'm misunderstanding you - so lets get this sorted out.

Here's what I think:  Scum hunting is possible even on D1.  Toaster is an experienced player, and widely considered to be a good player.  Jokes are great, but we have a job to do, and that job isn't telling jokes - so joking cannot replace doing our job.

I'll enjoy any level of joking you use in your posts, but look at what you're doing - you've made 4 posts, you were tied for lowest number of posts, and you've given 'joke space' for roughly half the volume used in your few and non-wall-of-text posts.

And now that I really understand that you think questions should be used as police-like interrogations, spotlight and all - your joking started in a post where you asked 3 questions, and one of them a joke question.  I don't get what you're 'really doing here'.  Your methods are not making a coherent picture for me.  Yes, you're also Scumhunting some too, but what I think I'm seeing you doing is a very minimal level of activity, with these jokes added in as padding.

So far you've used jokes to 'interrogate' Jim, and you've used jokes as a redirection combined with failing to answer one of my questions.  Because I believe you're a good and experienced player, I consider you one of the examples of 'how to play', and that's what I'm measuring you against.  And... I'm surprised and disappointed.  Because you're not measuring up to what I expect an example of 'how to play' should be.

So use as many jokes as you'd like - I don't think pirates are inherently funny, but I think they can be part of good and bad jokes, like anything else.  But my issue is - are you active lurking and making it look like you're scumhunting by just interacting with a few people, and are you padding your posts with jokes to make it look like you're doing more and more meaningful 'work' here than you are?

Quote from: Toaster on December 06, 2013, 11:34:16 am

I certainly hope this isn't my best.  I fell asleep early last night and didn't get that post in I wanted.

There's no problem with that.  Any one night is completely excusable.  Thing is, game's been going for just over 4 days now (and day would have ended yesterday without extension).  When I ask:

Quote from: Imp on December 06, 2013, 05:00:41 am

Are you going to be participating more regularly and intently this game, or is what you're showing so far the best you're going to show this game?

I'm not talking about just last night.  I'm talking about everything you've done and not done this game, each of these days and nights.  'Minimal effort, padded with 30-50% added in humor that is not actually being used to flavor Scumhunting, but actually is just added in and nothing but joking' - that's what I believe I'm seeing from you this game so far.  That's what I'm interrogating you about, and what I'm trying to hit with my light.  I don't care if it shines in your face or not - I want to see what your behavior means about your intentions.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - Trouble at Sea
Post by: Jim Groovester on December 06, 2013, 03:50:25 pm

I'm not going to make it by the deadline.

Extend.

I'll be fine once finals are over, but until that time, this game takes second, possibly even third or fourth, fiddle.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - Trouble at Sea
Post by: Persus13 on December 06, 2013, 05:13:18 pm

Imp, Toaster seemed just to be making a flavor text reference. For the record, he wasn't exactly that active in the last Supernatural either, (although he did turn out to be converted scum). And for that matter, you don't have a lot of posts either. You're 4th in the overall post count.

Sinlessmoon: I really want to hear more from you.

Also, if there's no activity by day end where going to go into a NL. I don't want to give the dopps an advantage.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - Trouble at Sea
Post by: Caz on December 06, 2013, 05:17:07 pm

Quote from: Persus13 on December 06, 2013, 05:13:18 pm

Also, if there's no activity by day end where going to go into a NL. I don't want to give the dopps an advantage.

How does lynching give the dopps an advantage?

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - Trouble at Sea
Post by: Persus13 on December 06, 2013, 05:21:53 pm

Quote from: Caz on December 06, 2013, 05:17:07 pm

Quote from: Persus13 on December 06, 2013, 05:13:18 pm

Also, if there's no activity by day end where going to go into a NL. I don't want to give the dopps an advantage.

How does lynching give the dopps an advantage?

NL loses info and we miss a chance to lynch a dopp. A intentional NL is fine, but an unintentional I feel is bad.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - Trouble at Sea
Post by: RangerCado on December 06, 2013, 05:26:31 pm

We have 5 votes for an extension so we'll be going until monday.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - Trouble at Sea
Post by: Caz on December 06, 2013, 05:30:07 pm

Quote from: Persus13 on December 06, 2013, 05:21:53 pm

Quote from: Caz on December 06, 2013, 05:17:07 pm

Quote from: Persus13 on December 06, 2013, 05:13:18 pm

Also, if there's no activity by day end where going to go into a NL. I don't want to give the dopps an advantage.

How does lynching give the dopps an advantage?

NL loses info and we miss a chance to lynch a dopp. A intentional NL is fine, but an unintentional I feel is bad.

Oh, I misunderstood. I thought you were saying we should NL to not give the dopps the advantage. Nevermind, hah.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - Trouble at Sea
Post by: Mephansteras on December 06, 2013, 05:57:03 pm

The Whiteboard
makeinu: RangerCado
Max White: Persus13, Tiruin
Sinlessmoon: Caz, Imp
Tiruin: Max White

---

Day has been Extended to ~5pm Pacific Monday. There will be no more extensions this day.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - Trouble at Sea
Post by: Jim Groovester on December 07, 2013, 01:22:19 am

This is going to be long. Sorry for the absence.

Quote from: Imp on December 04, 2013, 06:33:36 am

Explain which side of the fluff-line Toaster's question, your answer to it, and your answering question each falls on?  If these are not fluffy to you, what is the useful purpose you see these serving?

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

(http://cl.jroo.me/z3/B/J/t/d/a.aaa-No-fun-allowed..jpg)

Quote from: Imp on December 05, 2013, 07:16:21 am

Toaster, your 'answer' to my question was amusing and somewhat fits theme.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

(http://i44.tinypic.com/1okbgg.jpg)

I am wondering if your 'peg' is too heavy for you or something.  I was going to study your 'avast' answer a bit and try and figure out if it had a coded hidden meaning or something, but there was your spoiler to consider too.

So are you telling me that you and Jim are just joking about the fluff?  What purpose do you believe that serves in this game for you or him?

Or are you telling me in an artistic and amusing fashion that you're just not going to answer my question?

Because you didn't answer it, and you've made two comments to Jim this game that, other than sounding themey, actually are linguistic nonsense.

Quote from: Toaster on December 03, 2013, 12:02:37 am

Jim:  Arrr.  Be ye a swarthy enough pirate to see us out of this mess?

Translated into modern English, you asked him if his skin's dark enough to see us out of this mess.

Quote from: Jim Groovester on December 03, 2013, 01:56:34 am

Aye. Be ye a seaworthy enough sailor to smoothly sail to safety?

He answered you -yes-, but his follow up question uses language in a sensible fashion, without logical contradiction.  Your reply is even more nonsensical than your first Pirate theme question:

Quote from: Toaster on December 03, 2013, 10:06:40 am

I'm going to avast this ship until we sail over some land lubbers.

That seems to be a no in reply to his question - because you just said you were stopping the ship until you sail over some newbies (assuming land-lubbers in context are those without Mafia-legs yet).

What are you doing with this?  Why are you doing it?  Why didn't you answer my question, and why did you throw a 'labeled as a joke' joke at me in place of an answer?

Why does this bother you so much?

Quote from: Imp on December 06, 2013, 05:00:41 am

Jim:
Is your GPA going to allow you to play this game, or are you going to have to lurk through it for at least the next week?  If lurking's the answer your GPA needs, are you going to replace or will we have to decide if we're better off lynching you to not without your input?

Well, damn, with such tough talk I'm definitely going to come out and play right fucking now, instead of when my schedule permits.

<3 Imp, only you can take me away from my homework.

I have no intention of replacing out as of now, but I've seriously considered it.

Quote from: Imp on December 06, 2013, 05:00:41 am

Have you reached a point where you just don't think you're going to get to do anything cool as any role now, because you're getting targeted period too much or something?  Where's your -play-, man?  Where's the skill and art that others have spoken of admiring you for?

I'm almost tempted to toss a 'knock knock joke' at you.  But if you 'answered' it I'd only be saying to you 'Can Jim come out and play, please?'.

I GET IT

I HAVENT BEEN ACTIVE

I KNOW

Quote from: Tiruin on December 04, 2013, 05:09:25 am

Jim I'll leave the interpretation to you, but please do read two pages in exact next time?

Quote

I don't quite feel up to looking through your posts in the detail required to figure out what both of you are talking about, could you provide me a clean summary of your arguments against each other?

I mean, I could also not quite feel up to caring but hey, you noticed the shallow detail there! It's only a few pages back!

Yeah, yeah, I'm a horrible person and a horrible player, what with all these priorities and other stupid shit going on.

Quote from: Tiruin on December 04, 2013, 05:09:25 am

Continue along the post line and you'll see strange reasons back and forth.

On rereading this I still don't understand (or care) what you're both arguing about.

I'll just go do my own thing.

Quote from: Max White on December 04, 2013, 02:19:13 am

Quote from: Jim Groovester on December 04, 2013, 01:57:35 am

I understand your reasoning here but I question whether it's as all-important as you seem to be implying.

Is interfering with another player's scumhunting typically a tell associated with scum players?

Well it wasn't last time.

So of course it must be this time, right?

If there isn't even a pattern a single game long where answering another person's question is a scumtell, what the hell are you doing?

Quote from: Max White on December 04, 2013, 02:19:13 am

Quote from: Jim Groovester on December 04, 2013, 01:57:35 am

Tiruin & Max White, since you've both voted each other and I don't quite feel up to looking through your posts in the detail required to figure out what both of you are talking about, could you provide me a clean summary of your arguments against each other?

Basically I saw Tiruin do something interesting, so I bought it up and she got somewhat agitated by the fact that I was singling her out. So following on from that I voted for her to see how that would go and she got so annoyed she decided to return the favor.

I honestly don't care very much about her answering my question for me, it is the kind of thing people sometimes do, but when she is throwing out OMGUS votes to people this early as an act of aggression that is a little more interesting.

This reminds me of you in Supernatural 6 on Day 1 against NQT.

Wherein, you say that you saw something a player do, then you say your target gets all bothered by it, and suddenly you have instant justification for your vote.

Basically, I smell bullshit.

Wait, this is actually your most recent post in this thread. That's almost an absences as long as mine. Where the hell did you disappear to?

Quote from: makeinu on December 04, 2013, 04:25:42 am

Because it's a tacit admission that he's perfectly within his rights to hold whatever suspicions he wants to regarding me. His suspicions are not based on facts, but on intuition, hunch, whatever, but that does not make them any less valid for him to hold.

Clarify for me: What's valid, for him to have suspicions to hold, or the suspicions themselves?

Quote from: makeinu on December 04, 2013, 11:18:58 am

Regardless, as before, you're free to be suspicious based on your read of my actions, but your suspicion is misplaced. Barring my death and a role/alignment flip, however, I can't prove that you're wrong. If my assertion, based on the facts that I have but cannot prove, that you're wrong makes you more suspicious, then so be it.

Declarations of townhood are completely empty.

Quote from: makeinu on December 04, 2013, 05:34:00 pm

As to the scum-hunting, forgive me if it seems I'm not. I'm unused to this style of Q&A scum-hunting, with random, or seemingly so, "What if..." questions posed and answered. Perhaps I was rash in jumping into this game immediately, but it looked interesting. I have itches that make me lean toward a couple as scum, but I haven't clarified for myself yet how much of that is an emotional lizard-brain response, and how much is logic.

It's not about the random Q&A. The random questions don't turn up anything. Sadly, they're sort of necessary to actually get the game going.

There are substantive issues to talk about and discuss, and asking players about them is a worthwhile thing to do.

On your reads through the game, did you find anything strange?

Anything odd?

Out of place?

Noteworthy?

Something to clarify?

Suspicious?

Then ask the player in question about it. And determine the appropriate level of hostility and pressure to apply in the tone of the question to get the most revealing response. That is how mafia is played on this board.

I realize how much of a fish out of water you are, but continually talking about it will accomplish nothing.

Quote from: makeinu on December 04, 2013, 10:09:19 pm

Spoiler: Real life issues: (click to show/hide)

I had a stroke several months back.

Not the kind of news you expect to hear in your mid-40's, when you're active and healthy, but this was a very specific type of stroke that most typically strikes people fitting that exact description.

One of the medications I'm on, Coumadin, is a blood thinner and anti-clotting agent, and is very bio-reactive. Changing diet and other drugs can have very strange reactions, but it's necessary so the damage to my artery can heal.

This is not something you should have had to clarify. Nobody in the game is obligated to get an explanation of any real life issues you have.

Quote from: RangerCado on December 04, 2013, 11:11:46 am

Jim: I checked every line because i'm trying to figure out what makeinu's playstyle and way of thinking is. Checking his responses to mine is a good way to check for me to start. Is there a problem with that exactly?

No.

Did you have to list your entire thought process while you did it?

Wouldn't it be more effective to figure out what precisely it is you want to ask somebody and then ask them that, without fussing around with all the other stuff? (Hint: Yes)

Quote from: Caz on December 04, 2013, 08:22:26 am

Tiruin

makeinu

makeinu

Hrm, three votes in a single post.

Why, there's no way you could be intentionally drawing attention to yourself with these antics.

Say, what were your intentions with these antics?

Quote from: TheDarkStar on December 04, 2013, 09:36:23 pm

I'm voting for him for trying too hard to fit in.

Yeah, fuck the new guy!

Quote from: TheDarkStar on December 04, 2013, 10:45:16 pm

makeinu has shown that he is not just making excuses, so, while I still suspect him, Unvote for now. We need someone to check him eventually (and hopefully soon) to see what he is. I'd consider is reason to lynch if he came up as a townie based on the fact that, while he claims town, he carefully does not claim townie.

Quote from: TheDarkStar on December 04, 2013, 10:50:37 pm

Well, I suspect him a lot more now with his fifth town claim. He's close enough to me voting for him again that I'll probably do it next time he is suspicious.

Quote from: TheDarkStar on December 04, 2013, 11:14:16 pm

Idle conversation is still made for a reason, and this is definitely a townclaim (yet again). You shouldn't need to spam townclaims on day one, since it's not like anyone is going to be able to prove otherwise if you stay quiet. However, early townclaiming spam like that shows that you are trying to seem as pro-town as possible when playing scum. While some of them have legitimate reason, you just added another one that wouldn't be done if you were truly a townie.

You have no idea what you're doing, do you?

Quote from: TheDarkStar on December 05, 2013, 07:55:50 pm

Quote from: RangerCado on December 05, 2013, 01:46:09 pm

Though DarkStar not previously having a case is suspicious.

It's because I came a day late, after ~10 pages of the thread were already written and people had already started collections of evidence.

A day late is nothing. That's no excuse at all for not doing an adequate job of your own scumhunting.

I think you're probably scum, for your flimsy suspicion on makeinu and just as flimsy unvote. It looks opportunistic to me instead of legitimate

TheDarkStar, besides makeinu, who do you suspect?

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - Trouble at Sea
Post by: makeinu on December 07, 2013, 01:35:15 am

Damn, dude, you bring the big guns when you finally get rolling!  :)

Quote from: Jim Groovester on December 07, 2013, 01:22:19 am

Quote from: makeinu on December 04, 2013, 04:25:42 am

Because it's a tacit admission that he's perfectly within his rights to hold whatever suspicions he wants to regarding me. His suspicions are not based on facts, but on intuition, hunch, whatever, but that does not make them any less valid for him to hold.

Clarify for me: What's valid, for him to have suspicions to hold, or the suspicions themselves?

It's valid for him to have suspicions to hold. Who am I to tell him he's wrong to think anything he wants?

Thank you, and thank you as well, Imp, for taking the time to help this fish out of water get his sea legs.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - Trouble at Sea
Post by: RangerCado on December 07, 2013, 02:32:12 am

Jim: Something I have done in every mafia game i've played, or rather something I haven't, is spend time trying to make my posts sound fancy and planned out. I find the quotes I need, post my thoughts, (ALL my thoughts) and make the usual side comments. I figured out a system that worked for me and have stuck to most of the time. If you want me to add t the very end what i'm trying to get across I will, but I see no reason to stop how I do things.

More effective? Maybe.
Going through the whole process? Yes, it makes the post look as real as it is because its how i'm thinking things through. Same thing I do whether Town or Mafia.
Fussing with everything else? Meh, its how i've always played, sue me.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - Trouble at Sea
Post by: Toaster on December 07, 2013, 03:27:40 pm

Tiruin:  Can you sum up your case on Max in a couple bullet points, please?  Please include a note on why exactly you voted him in the first place.  It got hard to follow there.


Max:

Quote from: Max White on December 03, 2013, 08:38:12 pm

Persus isn't throwing out OMGUS votes now, is he? Why do you want to move the conversation to him so badly?

And you think OMGUS vote has any validity as any sort of scum tell?


TheDarkStar:

Quote from: TheDarkStar on December 03, 2013, 10:51:43 pm

Quote from: makeinu on December 03, 2013, 10:49:24 pm

I'm tired today, it's been a very long day.

More excuses won't help; get some proof built up over the next few game-days of being non-scum.

See, no, that's not how it works.  The burden of proof is on you to convince people that your target is scum.  It is not the job of anyone to prove themselves town.  The best defense in Mafia is truly a good offense- prove others are scum and you have proven yourself town by process of elimination.

I note your total lack of a case on anything at this point.

Quote from: TheDarkStar on December 04, 2013, 09:36:23 pm

Looking through the day's posts, Makeinu is trying too hard to be town. He has not made a real contribution so far, even though he claims he eventually will. He says he is town and definately not a doppelganger all the time (summed up by Persus), but as a townie he should assume that he does not need to say this, since he would have nothing to hide. I'm voting for him for trying too hard to fit in.

Okay, this is a start.  Who else do you suspect, and why?

Quote from: TheDarkStar on December 04, 2013, 10:45:16 pm

makeinu has shown that he is not just making excuses, so, while I still suspect him, Unvote for now. We need someone to check him eventually (and hopefully soon) to see what he is. I'd consider is reason to lynch if he came up as a townie based on the fact that, while he claims town, he carefully does not claim townie.

And there went your start.

Quote from: TheDarkStar on December 04, 2013, 10:50:37 pm

Quote from: TheDarkStar on December 04, 2013, 10:45:16 pm

makeinu has shown that he is not just making excuses, so, while I still suspect him, Unvote for now. We need someone to check him eventually (and hopefully soon) to see what he is. I'd consider is reason to lynch if he came up as a townie based on the fact that, while he claims town, he carefully does not claim townie.

Well, I suspect him a lot more now with his fifth town claim. He's close enough to me voting for him again that I'll probably do it next time he is suspicious.

Dammit, now I'm tired of quoting you.  There's really no reason to not vote him if you suspect him since you're not doing anything else with your vote.  Or, you know, you could do something else with your vote.


Caz:

Quote from: Caz on December 04, 2013, 08:22:26 am

Quote from: Max White on December 03, 2013, 06:58:51 pm

You were very quick to jump in on a question directed at me.

True, jumping in the middle of questions is a foul. The people call foul! Death to Tiruin!

Is this really a lynchable offense?

Hell, all three of your votes look like they're just "lol me too!" votes.  Why is this?

And I'm working on that read.  Hoping to have one by the time this post is over.

Quote from: Caz on December 04, 2013, 10:42:05 pm

Sinlessmoon, Toaster: Are you still with us?

Now you're jumping right off that.  Jump around some more?

Quote from: Caz on December 04, 2013, 10:43:25 pm

Quote from: makeinu on December 04, 2013, 10:41:07 pm

Sadly, I have to admit I'm better at playing scum than town...

I probably shouldn't admit that...

Are you townclaiming again? I swear I'll put my vote back on you -_- I will, damnit.

So do it.

Okay, got that read.  Caz, why are you flinging your vote around like crazy?  It's almost like you want to look active without being active.


Makeinu:

Quote from: makeinu on December 04, 2013, 10:41:07 pm

Quote from: Caz on December 04, 2013, 10:38:40 pm

Yeah, generally noob-scum are more concerned with keeping up their image than anything else. They make a superficial attempt at scumhunting while their real plan is to make themselves look so uber townie that no one would think of lynching them. I don't think it's the best tactic, but it's used pretty commonly.

Sadly, I have to admit I'm better at playing scum than town...

I probably shouldn't admit that...

I see no problem with that.  I know I'm better at scum myself, and am really not very good at town.  Especially lately- my game has slipped due to poor focus.


Imp:

Quote from: Imp on December 04, 2013, 07:21:19 am

I need to decide if you are hostile to Town or helpful because my Wincon requires me to eliminate threats to Town.

If we're picking nits, that sounds like you're not actually Town.

Quote from: Imp

pirate stuff

Jim beat me to the perfect response to this:

Quote from: Jim Groovester on December 07, 2013, 01:22:19 am

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

(http://cl.jroo.me/z3/B/J/t/d/a.aaa-No-fun-allowed..jpg)

I haven't had a long enough solid block of time to really pore into this.  Hell, I just got about half done of what I wanted now.  The content will (has) come- I just do what I can when I can.

Also, one more thing:

How much did the pirate pay to get his ears pierced?

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

A BUCCANEER

Blarg out of time to finish this post.  Toaster, 179.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - Trouble at Sea
Post by: TheDarkStar on December 07, 2013, 06:38:33 pm

Toaster had some interesting things in his post. His seemed to be multiple other people that we tend to have doubts about.

Quote from: Toaster on December 07, 2013, 03:27:40 pm

Max:

Quote from: Max White on December 03, 2013, 08:38:12 pm

Persus isn't throwing out OMGUS votes now, is he? Why do you want to move the conversation to him so badly?

And you think OMGUS vote has any validity as any sort of scum tell?

It might not be a scum tell for sure, but random voting is worrying: It either means that they are bad at playing town and might get good players killed (so lynching these people is better than letting them get someone else), or they are bad at scum and are trying to throw suspicion on random people. Either way, it's safer to get rid of them. Also, any suspicion about Persus is old and not as important as the current investigations.

TheDarkStar:

Quote from: TheDarkStar on December 03, 2013, 10:51:43 pm

Quote from: makeinu on December 03, 2013, 10:49:24 pm

I'm tired today, it's been a very long day.

More excuses won't help; get some proof built up over the next few game-days of being non-scum.

See, no, that's not how it works.  The burden of proof is on you to convince people that your target is scum.  It is not the job of anyone to prove themselves town.  The best defense in Mafia is truly a good offense- prove others are scum and you have proven yourself town by process of elimination.
You conveniently did not quote the context there. I had been accusing Makeinu, and there is evidence against him. My post was written because I thought he was scum at the time, and it's not possible for me to provide any more evidence than there is. My post was intended to say that claiming town is not good enough evidence, and that we will lynch him unless we provide better evidence.

And I'm working on that read.  Hoping to have one by the time this post is over.

Quote from: Caz on December 04, 2013, 10:42:05 pm

Sinlessmoon, Toaster: Are you still with us?

Now you're jumping right off that.  Jump around some more?

Quote from: Caz on December 04, 2013, 10:43:25 pm

Quote from: makeinu on December 04, 2013, 10:41:07 pm

Sadly, I have to admit I'm better at playing scum than town...

I probably shouldn't admit that...

Are you townclaiming again? I swear I'll put my vote back on you -_- I will, damnit.

So do it.

Okay, got that read.  Caz, why are you flinging your vote around like crazy?  It's almost like you want to look active without being active.

While Caz might be scum too (as one of the aliens) or be a survivor, you're deliberately throwing suspicion off Makeinu, almost as if you have reason to defend him.

Makeinu:

Quote from: makeinu on December 04, 2013, 10:41:07 pm

Quote from: Caz on December 04, 2013, 10:38:40 pm

Yeah, generally noob-scum are more concerned with keeping up their image than anything else. They make a superficial attempt at scumhunting while their real plan is to make themselves look so uber townie that no one would think of lynching them. I don't think it's the best tactic, but it's used pretty commonly.

Sadly, I have to admit I'm better at playing scum than town...

I probably shouldn't admit that...

I see no problem with that.  I know I'm better at scum myself, and am really not very good at town.  Especially lately- my game has slipped due to poor focus.

Again, you have no problem with the things that everyone else does.

Imp:

Quote from: Imp on December 04, 2013, 07:21:19 am

I need to decide if you are hostile to Town or helpful because my Wincon requires me to eliminate threats to Town.

If we're picking nits, that sounds like you're not actually Town.

Interestingly, Makeinu made an almost identical comment, but you defend him.

Quote from: makeinu on December 04, 2013, 09:17:35 am

I know my wincon and alignment. Having already been pinged as suspicious for previously throwing out assertions to them, I refuse to further that by repeating them in every post to defend myself. At the risk of being pinged for such again, however, I will do so here. My wincon requires eliminating threats to the town.

[/b][/color]

In regards to what you posted:
Okay, this is a start.  Who else do you suspect, and why?
For starters, you.

Quote from: Toaster

Or, you know, you could do something else with your vote.

Exactly, like doing this: Toaster.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - Trouble at Sea
Post by: TheDarkStar on December 07, 2013, 06:42:13 pm

Quote from: TheDarkStar on December 07, 2013, 06:38:33 pm

Toaster had some interesting things in his post. His seemed to be multiple other people that we tend to have doubts about.

Quote from: Toaster on December 07, 2013, 03:27:40 pm

Max:

Quote from: Max White on December 03, 2013, 08:38:12 pm

Persus isn't throwing out OMGUS votes now, is he? Why do you want to move the conversation to him so badly?

And you think OMGUS vote has any validity as any sort of scum tell?

It might not be a scum tell for sure, but random voting is worrying: It either means that they are bad at playing town and might get good players killed (so lynching these people is better than letting them get someone else), or they are bad at scum and are trying to throw suspicion on random people. Either way, it's safer to get rid of them. Also, any suspicion about Persus is old and not as important as the current investigations.

TheDarkStar:

Quote from: TheDarkStar on December 03, 2013, 10:51:43 pm

Quote from: makeinu on December 03, 2013, 10:49:24 pm

I'm tired today, it's been a very long day.

More excuses won't help; get some proof built up over the next few game-days of being non-scum.

See, no, that's not how it works.  The burden of proof is on you to convince people that your target is scum.  It is not the job of anyone to prove themselves town.  The best defense in Mafia is truly a good offense- prove others are scum and you have proven yourself town by process of elimination.
You conveniently did not quote the context there. I had been accusing Makeinu, and there is evidence against him. My post was written because I thought he was scum at the time, and it's not possible for me to provide any more evidence than there is. My post was intended to say that claiming town is not good enough evidence, and that we will lynch him unless we provide better evidence.

And I'm working on that read.  Hoping to have one by the time this post is over.

Quote from: Caz on December 04, 2013, 10:42:05 pm

Sinlessmoon, Toaster: Are you still with us?

Now you're jumping right off that.  Jump around some more?

Quote from: Caz on December 04, 2013, 10:43:25 pm

Quote from: makeinu on December 04, 2013, 10:41:07 pm

Sadly, I have to admit I'm better at playing scum than town...

I probably shouldn't admit that...

Are you townclaiming again? I swear I'll put my vote back on you -_- I will, damnit.

So do it.

Okay, got that read.  Caz, why are you flinging your vote around like crazy?  It's almost like you want to look active without being active.

While Caz might be scum too (as one of the aliens) or be a survivor, you're deliberately throwing suspicion off Makeinu, almost as if you have reason to defend him.

Makeinu:

Quote from: makeinu on December 04, 2013, 10:41:07 pm

Quote from: Caz on December 04, 2013, 10:38:40 pm

Yeah, generally noob-scum are more concerned with keeping up their image than anything else. They make a superficial attempt at scumhunting while their real plan is to make themselves look so uber townie that no one would think of lynching them. I don't think it's the best tactic, but it's used pretty commonly.

Sadly, I have to admit I'm better at playing scum than town...

I probably shouldn't admit that...

I see no problem with that.  I know I'm better at scum myself, and am really not very good at town.  Especially lately- my game has slipped due to poor focus.

Again, you have no problem with the things that everyone else does.

Imp:

Quote from: Imp on December 04, 2013, 07:21:19 am

I need to decide if you are hostile to Town or helpful because my Wincon requires me to eliminate threats to Town.

If we're picking nits, that sounds like you're not actually Town.

Interestingly, Makeinu made an almost identical comment, but you defend him.

Quote from: makeinu on December 04, 2013, 09:17:35 am

I know my wincon and alignment. Having already been pinged as suspicious for previously throwing out assertions to them, I refuse to further that by repeating them in every post to defend myself. At the risk of being pinged for such again, however, I will do so here. My wincon requires eliminating threats to the town.

[/b][/color]

In regards to what you posted:
Okay, this is a start.  Who else do you suspect, and why?
For starters, you.

Quote from: Toaster

Or, you know, you could do something else with your vote.

Exactly, like doing this: Toaster.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - Trouble at Sea
Post by: TheDarkStar on December 07, 2013, 06:42:38 pm

Fixed my wall of text.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - Trouble at Sea
Post by: Toaster on December 07, 2013, 08:37:55 pm

Now I can actually finish.


Caz:

Quote from: Caz on December 04, 2013, 07:04:34 pm

Put words into my mouth more, bro. My reasoning for my vote against makeinu is that his excuses are flimsy. You think scum isn't up to exaggerating irl issues to keep suspicion off them? I see people excusing their lack of coherent posts by lack of time, tiredness, whatever. Not all of them flip town. To be honest, making an excuse is almost admitting guilt. If you don't agree to that, I'll reference makeinu's frequent assurances to us that he is town. (After all, how else would we know?)

So is he scum for making excuses or scum for repeatably claiming town?


Makeinu:

Quote from: makeinu on December 04, 2013, 10:24:36 pm

I don't generally make a habit of town-claiming.

?

Quote from: Caz on December 04, 2013, 07:04:34 pm

Quote from: makeinu on December 04, 2013, 11:18:58 am

Regardless, as before, you're free to be suspicious based on your read of my actions, but your suspicion is misplaced. Barring my death and a role/alignment flip, however, I can't prove that you're wrong.

Quote from: makeinu on December 04, 2013, 09:17:35 am

I know my wincon and alignment. Having already been pinged as suspicious for previously throwing out assertions to them, I refuse to further that by repeating them in every post to defend myself. At the risk of being pinged for such again, however, I will do so here. My wincon requires eliminating threats to the town.

Quote from: makeinu on December 03, 2013, 09:31:28 am

I'm not a dopp

Quote from: makeinu on December 03, 2013, 03:14:27 am

I'm not going to role claim, not on day one, but I am town.

The evidence is against you on this one.

Also, I have nothing against (and even encourage) bringing in a new style of hunting scum to the table.  However, you've only actually voted once (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=133676.msg4806912#msg4806912), with a clearly throwaway vote.  What results can you bring to the table?

Quote from: makeinu on December 07, 2013, 01:35:15 am

fish out of water get his sea legs.

Nautical nonsense be something I wish!


TheDarkStar:

Quote from: TheDarkStar on December 04, 2013, 10:45:16 pm

I'd consider is reason to lynch if he came up as a townie based on the fact that, while he claims town, he carefully does not claim townie.

What does the first half of this sentence mean?  (Prior to the comma)

Quote

Hard to quote inline answers

How, exactly, am I defending Makeinu?


Persus:

Quote from: Persus13 on December 04, 2013, 11:23:05 pm

Quote from: Toaster on December 04, 2013, 10:51:51 pm

Quote from: Jim Groovester on December 04, 2013, 01:57:35 am

Quote from: makeinu on December 03, 2013, 09:27:47 pm

So, it turns out I may have been a little manic yesterday, due to an unforeseen drug interaction. And by may have, I mean was completely. And by a little, I mean a lot.

I don't know the circumstances of what happened, but I fully recommend that you do not play under the influence.

It's just a bad idea.

Jim is correct. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=124335.msg4223421#msg4223421)

This just made my day and caused me to burst out laughing, thanks.

I aim to please.


Ranger:

Quote from: RangerCado on December 05, 2013, 01:46:09 pm

Toaster: Fair point. But the advantage of asking everyone a question is also there, as you get many responses which you can then find someone worth pursuing. I believe both options have their advantages, so I picked the one that works better for me style wise. And because you put it up for Imp, I might as well answer since its a similar situation. Yes, I would. My reasons are the same, I would just get less creative with my questions in the massive list of players.

If your questions are less creative, are they less effective?


SinlessMoon:  Are you actually playing this game?


Jim:  Short of your vote, it's hard to tell whom you actually do and do not suspect out of that post.  Could you clarify?

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - Trouble at Sea
Post by: Jim Groovester on December 07, 2013, 10:48:50 pm

Hey, TheDarkStar, you missed a question.

Quote from: Jim Groovester on December 07, 2013, 01:22:19 am

TheDarkStar, besides makeinu, who do you suspect?

I suppose you've answered it already in part.

Quote from: Toaster on December 07, 2013, 08:37:55 pm

Jim:  Short of your vote, it's hard to tell whom you actually do and do not suspect out of that post.  Could you clarify?

I suspect TheDarkStar for being lazy and opportunistic.

I suspect Max White to some extent for his self-confirming pressure against Tiruin, which reminded me a lot of the same thing he pulled against NQT in Sup 6 on Day 1. Also, he disappeared for some reason. What reason? Who knows?

Beyond those two I don't really have a read on anybody.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - Trouble at Sea
Post by: makeinu on December 07, 2013, 11:44:09 pm

Quote from: Persus13 on December 06, 2013, 05:21:53 pm

Quote from: Caz on December 06, 2013, 05:17:07 pm

Quote from: Persus13 on December 06, 2013, 05:13:18 pm

Also, if there's no activity by day end where going to go into a NL. I don't want to give the dopps an advantage.

How does lynching give the dopps an advantage?

NL loses info and we miss a chance to lynch a dopp. A intentional NL is fine, but an unintentional I feel is bad.

Likewise, I feel a blind lynch is bad, as mathematically it's advantage scum. If there's a real reason to lynch, then do, but lynch for the sake of lynching is no better or worse than an unintentional no lynch, in my opinion.

---

Quote from: Toaster on December 07, 2013, 08:37:55 pm

Makeinu:

Quote from: makeinu on December 04, 2013, 10:24:36 pm

I don't generally make a habit of town-claiming.

?


The evidence is against you on this one.

Examples in this game aside, I meant more generally. I'll admit to playing badly so far.

Quote

Quote from: makeinu on December 07, 2013, 01:35:15 am

fish out of water get his sea legs.

Nautical nonsense be something I wish!

A pirate I be not, but a sailor, aye! If it be nautical nonsense ye seek, then yer basin I can fill.

Screw no fun allowed. :P

---

Quote

TheDarkStar:

Quote from: TheDarkStar on December 04, 2013, 10:45:16 pm

I'd consider is reason to lynch if he came up as a townie based on the fact that, while he claims town, he carefully does not claim townie.

What does the first half of this sentence mean?  (Prior to the comma)

I asked before, and I'll ask again, because it wasn't answered. DarkStar, I want to know what the difference between claiming TOWN and claiming TOWNIE are. That seems a semantics argument to me, and I dislike semantics arguments, as they're only a way to argue without actually providing any substance.

Quote from: TheDarkStar on December 07, 2013, 06:42:38 pm

Fixed my wall of text.

For certain loose definitions of the word "fixed" perhaps, but all I see is a nearly unreadable wall of text with little substance to it. That dark blue is very difficult for me to read. You'll forgive me if I remove it in my reply.

Quote from: TheDarkStar on December 07, 2013, 06:42:13 pm

Quote from: Toaster on December 07, 2013, 03:27:40 pm

Max:

Quote from: Max White on December 03, 2013, 08:38:12 pm

Persus isn't throwing out OMGUS votes now, is he? Why do you want to move the conversation to him so badly?

And you think OMGUS vote has any validity as any sort of scum tell?

Quote

It might not be a scum tell for sure, but random voting is worrying: It either means that they are bad at playing town and might get good players killed (so lynching these people is better than letting them get someone else), or they are bad at scum and are trying to throw suspicion on random people. Either way, it's safer to get rid of them.

This is not the first time something you've said has left me scratching my head in confusion. I thought the whole point of the RVS stage was to use random votes to apply pressure, and gauge people's responses. Is it not? How is that worrying? If they're bad at playing town, they're likely to get themselves lynched, and if they're bad at playing scum, they're likely to out themselves through inconsistent answers and lies. Because lies are easy to tell, but hard to maintain.

I find, in general, that your play so far is fairly lacking in substance. I may not have brought much to the table so far, but I don't see much with your name on it either, and I find your suspicions a thin soup.

---

Imp:

You post impressive walls (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=133676.msg4812967#msg4812967) of (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=133676.msg4815291#msg4815291) text (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=133676.msg4816034#msg4816034). While I certainly appreciate the play advice, I'm having some difficulties in parsing any actual substance out of a lot of what I've linked there. Would it be considered rude if I requested you summarize your suspicions?

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - Trouble at Sea
Post by: makeinu on December 07, 2013, 11:45:55 pm

Balls... broken quote tags....

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - Trouble at Sea
Post by: Max White on December 08, 2013, 03:24:08 am

You know I'm just going to have to ask to be replaced.
I'm spending the christmas season with family, and as hard as I try I just can't drag myself into arguing here after a long day or arguing with them. I keep telling myself to go on and contribute, but honestly I just feel like abusing you all and that isn't a very nice way to play.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - Trouble at Sea
Post by: Persus13 on December 08, 2013, 11:11:08 am

Quote from: Max White on December 08, 2013, 03:24:08 am

You know I'm just going to have to ask to be replaced.
I'm spending the christmas season with family, and as hard as I try I just can't drag myself into arguing here after a long day or arguing with them. I keep telling myself to go on and contribute, but honestly I just feel like abusing you all and that isn't a very nice way to play.

Unvote

Sinlessmoon, where are you?

Tiruin, I know you have a bunch of RL stuff and Sprint, but a post in the near future would be nice.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - Trouble at Sea
Post by: Mephansteras on December 08, 2013, 12:37:12 pm

The Whiteboard
Caz: Toaster
makeinu: RangerCado
Max White: Tiruin
Sinlessmoon: Caz, Imp, Persus13
TheDarkStar: Jim Groovester
Tiruin: Max White
Toaster: TheDarkStar

---

Day ends ~5pm Pacific Monday

Max White has requested a Replacement.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - Trouble at Sea
Post by: Persus13 on December 08, 2013, 01:00:15 pm

Meph: I believe Makeinu is also voting DarkStar.

Quote from: makeinu on December 07, 2013, 11:44:09 pm

DarkStar

Unvote, I forgot that Caz and Imp were also trying to get Sinlessmoon to talk. I think he may need a prod.

Back to Max, I still think he's scum.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - [1 REPLACE NEEDED]
Post by: Sinlessmoon on December 08, 2013, 05:40:26 pm

Ah, apologies. I've been out for a couple days.

Gotta catch up on the reading.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - Trouble at Sea
Post by: TheDarkStar on December 08, 2013, 06:59:39 pm

Quote from: makeinu on December 07, 2013, 11:44:09 pm

Quote

TheDarkStar:

Quote from: TheDarkStar on December 04, 2013, 10:45:16 pm

I'd consider is reason to lynch if he came up as a townie based on the fact that, while he claims town, he carefully does not claim townie.

What does the first half of this sentence mean?  (Prior to the comma)

I asked before, and I'll ask again, because it wasn't answered. DarkStar, I want to know what the difference between claiming TOWN and claiming TOWNIE are. That seems a semantics argument to me, and I dislike semantics arguments, as they're only a way to argue without actually providing any substance.

Townie = specific role, town = town-aligned. War vet, Vigilante, Detective, etc. are all town roles.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - Trouble at Sea
Post by: makeinu on December 08, 2013, 07:10:24 pm

Quote from: TheDarkStar on December 08, 2013, 06:59:39 pm

Townie = specific role, town = town-aligned. War vet, Vigilante, Detective, etc. are all town roles.

Ah. Semantics, just not in the way I was thinking.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - Trouble at Sea
Post by: TheDarkStar on December 08, 2013, 07:24:58 pm

Quote from: makeinu on December 08, 2013, 07:10:24 pm

Quote from: TheDarkStar on December 08, 2013, 06:59:39 pm

Townie = specific role, town = town-aligned. War vet, Vigilante, Detective, etc. are all town roles.

Ah. Semantics, just not in the way I was thinking.

Yep, my words actually mean something.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - Trouble at Sea
Post by: makeinu on December 08, 2013, 08:10:30 pm

Quote from: TheDarkStar on December 08, 2013, 07:24:58 pm

Quote from: makeinu on December 08, 2013, 07:10:24 pm

Quote from: TheDarkStar on December 08, 2013, 06:59:39 pm

Townie = specific role, town = town-aligned. War vet, Vigilante, Detective, etc. are all town roles.

Ah. Semantics, just not in the way I was thinking.

Yep, my words actually mean something.

As do mine. The distinction between Town, the alignment, and Townie, the role, is in the end irrelevant. Townies don't win or lose, Town does. So making a distinction between the two is a pointless semantics argument.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - Trouble at Sea
Post by: TheDarkStar on December 08, 2013, 08:39:35 pm

Quote from: makeinu on December 08, 2013, 08:10:30 pm

Quote from: TheDarkStar on December 08, 2013, 07:24:58 pm

Quote from: makeinu on December 08, 2013, 07:10:24 pm

Quote from: TheDarkStar on December 08, 2013, 06:59:39 pm

Townie = specific role, town = town-aligned. War vet, Vigilante, Detective, etc. are all town roles.

Ah. Semantics, just not in the way I was thinking.

Yep, my words actually mean something.

As do mine. The distinction between Town, the alignment, and Townie, the role, is in the end irrelevant. Townies don't win or lose, Town does. So making a distinction between the two is a pointless semantics argument.

Not really, since I see you haven't claimed that you are a townie, just town-aligned.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - Trouble at Sea
Post by: makeinu on December 08, 2013, 08:48:13 pm

Quote from: TheDarkStar on December 08, 2013, 08:39:35 pm

Not really, since I see you haven't claimed that you are a townie, just town-aligned.

I'm really not getting into this with you. Seriously.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - [1 REPLACE NEEDED]
Post by: Jim Groovester on December 08, 2013, 09:12:18 pm

HEY THEDARKSTAR

DO YOU HAVE MYOPIA OR SOMETHING

IS THAT WHY YOU CANT SEE ANY OF MY POSTS

HERE LET ME HELP YOU BY WRITING IN ALL CAPS

NOW ANSWER MY FUCKING QUESTION

Quote from: Jim Groovester on December 07, 2013, 01:22:19 am

TheDarkStar, besides makeinu, who do you suspect?

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - [1 REPLACE NEEDED]
Post by: TheDarkStar on December 08, 2013, 09:33:22 pm

Quote from: Jim Groovester on December 08, 2013, 09:12:18 pm

HEY THEDARKSTAR

DO YOU HAVE MYOPIA OR SOMETHING

Quote from: Jim Groovester on December 07, 2013, 01:22:19 am

TheDarkStar, besides makeinu, who do you suspect?

Obviously, you didn't read.

Quote from: TheDarkStar on December 07, 2013, 06:38:33 pm

Toaster.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - [1 REPLACE NEEDED]
Post by: Jim Groovester on December 08, 2013, 09:57:17 pm

Oh, good. You don't have myopia. You're just inattentive.

Anybody suspects besides those two?

And to clarify, your case on makeinu is because he has repeatedly claimed town, and your case on Toaster is that he is defending makeinu. Of course, you have opted to not respond to Toaster when he asked you to clarify how you are defending makeinu.

Clearly such things should be obvious from context alone, presumably.

Maybe you should consider being more responsive when you play this game.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - [1 REPLACE NEEDED]
Post by: TheDarkStar on December 08, 2013, 10:13:53 pm

Quote from: Jim Groovester on December 08, 2013, 09:57:17 pm

Oh, good. You don't have myopia. You're just inattentive.

Anybody suspects besides those two?

And to clarify, your case on makeinu is because he has repeatedly claimed town, and your case on Toaster is that he is defending makeinu. Of course, you have opted to not respond to Toaster when he asked you to clarify how you are defending makeinu.

Clearly such things should be obvious from context alone, presumably.

Maybe you should consider being more responsive when you play this game.

I missed the first day of play, so of course I will be about a day behind in investigations. Why aren't you looking at Persus13, who hasn't voted for anyone?

Part of the reason I suspect Toaster is from earlier discussion (see the first thing on my wall of text [urlhttp://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=133676.msg4818927#msg4818927][/url]). Also, it doesn't make me trust a guy if he defends someone I already suspect.

Finally, note that it is not even night 1, so no one has very much true evidence yet. I can only do so much because the only information we have is based on what people say (which may or may not be true). While you can find out a a little bit, just about everyone is equally suspect here (since almost everyone is being voted for).

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - [1 REPLACE NEEDED]
Post by: Persus13 on December 08, 2013, 10:21:05 pm

Quote from: TheDarkStar on December 08, 2013, 10:13:53 pm

I missed the first day of play, so of course I will be about a day behind in investigations. Why aren't you looking at Persus13, who hasn't voted for anyone?

First of, deflection, secondly, I've voted Max and Sinlessmoon.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - [1 REPLACE NEEDED]
Post by: TheDarkStar on December 08, 2013, 10:30:10 pm

Quote from: Persus13 on December 08, 2013, 10:21:05 pm

Quote from: TheDarkStar on December 08, 2013, 10:13:53 pm

I missed the first day of play, so of course I will be about a day behind in investigations. Why aren't you looking at Persus13, who hasn't voted for anyone?

First of, deflection, secondly, I've voted Max and Sinlessmoon.

Sorry, I missed your last vote change.

Do note that most of the current votes are for Sinlessmoon, who is not responding very much. This is not much better than no vote.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - Trouble at Sea
Post by: Toaster on December 08, 2013, 10:31:06 pm

TheDarkStar:

Quote from: Toaster on December 07, 2013, 08:37:55 pm

TheDarkStar:

Quote from: TheDarkStar on December 04, 2013, 10:45:16 pm

I'd consider is reason to lynch if he came up as a townie based on the fact that, while he claims town, he carefully does not claim townie.

What does the first half of this sentence mean?  (Prior to the comma)

Quote

Hard to quote inline answers

How, exactly, am I defending Makeinu?

Quote from: TheDarkStar on December 08, 2013, 10:13:53 pm

While you can find out a a little bit, just about everyone is equally suspect here (since almost everyone is being voted for).

How are the two bolded assertions related?

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - Trouble at Sea
Post by: TheDarkStar on December 08, 2013, 10:34:35 pm

Quote from: Toaster on December 08, 2013, 10:31:06 pm

TheDarkStar:

Quote from: Toaster on December 07, 2013, 08:37:55 pm

TheDarkStar:

Quote from: TheDarkStar on December 04, 2013, 10:45:16 pm

I'd consider is reason to lynch if he came up as a townie based on the fact that, while he claims town, he carefully does not claim townie.

What does the first half of this sentence mean?  (Prior to the comma)

Quote

Hard to quote inline answers

How, exactly, am I defending Makeinu?

Quote from: TheDarkStar on December 08, 2013, 10:13:53 pm

While you can find out a a little bit, just about everyone is equally suspect here (since almost everyone is being voted for).

How are the two bolded assertions related?

I did not make myself clear. (Almost) everyone is equally suspected because everyone is suspected by one or two people. The votes (and the posts) are evidence supporting the statement that everyone is suspected roughly equally.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - [1 REPLACE NEEDED]
Post by: Jim Groovester on December 08, 2013, 11:11:39 pm

Quote from: TheDarkStar on December 08, 2013, 10:13:53 pm

Why aren't you looking at Persus13, who hasn't voted for anyone?

Why do you care whether I look at Persus13?

This is also demonstrably untrue.

Quote from: TheDarkStar on December 08, 2013, 10:13:53 pm

Finally, note that it is not even night 1, so no one has very much true evidence yet. I can only do so much because the only information we have is based on what people say (which may or may not be true). While you can find out a a little bit, just about everyone is equally suspect here (since almost everyone is being voted for).

This is not a productive attitude to hold.

You would be better off making the effort to find material on Day 1 regardless of your opinion on whether useful information can be found.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - [1 REPLACE NEEDED]
Post by: Persus13 on December 08, 2013, 11:15:19 pm

TheDarkStar: Have you played Mafia before?

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - Trouble at Sea
Post by: Toaster on December 08, 2013, 11:35:33 pm

TheDarkStar:

Quote from: Toaster on December 08, 2013, 10:31:06 pm

Quote

Hard to quote inline answers

How, exactly, am I defending Makeinu?

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - [1 REPLACE NEEDED]
Post by: Jim Groovester on December 08, 2013, 11:53:18 pm

lololol myopia lololololol

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - [1 REPLACE NEEDED]
Post by: Imp on December 09, 2013, 04:47:00 am

Posting from holiday stuff/hectic life/fighting off a flu.  Every time I sit down to write this post I get interrupted within a few minutes.  I can't give this the attention it deserves but I think I gave it what it needs.  If I missed anyone's questions, ask again.

Persus

Quote from: Persus13 on December 06, 2013, 05:13:18 pm

Imp, Toaster seemed just to be making a flavor text reference. For the record, he wasn't exactly that active in the last Supernatural either, (although he did turn out to be converted scum). And for that matter, you don't have a lot of posts either. You're 4th in the overall post count.

You're saying that you're fine with Toaster's activity here because he wasn't very active in S6, where he was converted to Scum?

And you're saying that I don't have a lot of posts either, because (when you posted this comment) three people had more posts than me and seven had fewer - what's the significance of this to you, and how does that compare to talking about people in last place for number of posts?

Jim:

Quote from: Jim Groovester on December 07, 2013, 01:22:19 am

Quote from: Imp on December 04, 2013, 06:33:36 am

Explain which side of the fluff-line Toaster's question, your answer to it, and your answering question each falls on?  If these are not fluffy to you, what is the useful purpose you see these serving?

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

(http://cl.jroo.me/z3/B/J/t/d/a.aaa-No-fun-allowed..jpg)

I see avoidance of answering.  Why aren't you answering these questions?

Quote from: Jim Groovester on December 07, 2013, 01:22:19 am

Spoiler: spoiled for brevity (click to show/hide)

Quote from: Imp on December 05, 2013, 07:16:21 am

Toaster, your 'answer' to my question was amusing and somewhat fits theme.

(http://i44.tinypic.com/1okbgg.jpg)

I am wondering if your 'peg' is too heavy for you or something.  I was going to study your 'avast' answer a bit and try and figure out if it had a coded hidden meaning or something, but there was your spoiler to consider too.

So are you telling me that you and Jim are just joking about the fluff?  What purpose do you believe that serves in this game for you or him?

Or are you telling me in an artistic and amusing fashion that you're just not going to answer my question?

Because you didn't answer it, and you've made two comments to Jim this game that, other than sounding themey, actually are linguistic nonsense.

Quote from: Toaster on December 03, 2013, 12:02:37 am

Jim:  Arrr.  Be ye a swarthy enough pirate to see us out of this mess?

Translated into modern English, you asked him if his skin's dark enough to see us out of this mess.

Quote from: Jim Groovester on December 03, 2013, 01:56:34 am

Aye. Be ye a seaworthy enough sailor to smoothly sail to safety?

He answered you -yes-, but his follow up question uses language in a sensible fashion, without logical contradiction.  Your reply is even more nonsensical than your first Pirate theme question:

Quote from: Toaster on December 03, 2013, 10:06:40 am

I'm going to avast this ship until we sail over some land lubbers.

That seems to be a no in reply to his question - because you just said you were stopping the ship until you sail over some newbies (assuming land-lubbers in context are those without Mafia-legs yet).

What are you doing with this?  Why are you doing it?  Why didn't you answer my question, and why did you throw a 'labeled as a joke' joke at me in place of an answer?

Why does this bother you so much?

Because it doesn't make sense to me except as active lurking and deflection.

Toaster:

Quote from: Toaster on December 07, 2013, 03:27:40 pm

Imp:

Quote from: Imp on December 04, 2013, 07:21:19 am

I need to decide if you are hostile to Town or helpful because my Wincon requires me to eliminate threats to Town.

If we're picking nits, that sounds like you're not actually Town.

Quote from: Imp

pirate stuff

Jim beat me to the perfect response to this:

Quote from: Jim Groovester on December 07, 2013, 01:22:19 am

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

(http://cl.jroo.me/z3/B/J/t/d/a.aaa-No-fun-allowed..jpg)

It bugs me that you and Jim appear to be perfectly comfortable with each other.  Your RVS question to him was part of a joke, you brush off my inquiries about what you mean and what you're doing by saying that Jim's joking non-answer to my questions for him was also the perfect response to my questions to you.

Why do you appear so comfortable with Jim in this game?

Quote from: Toaster on December 07, 2013, 03:27:40 pm

Also, one more thing:

How much did the pirate pay to get his ears pierced?

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

A BUCCANEER

Quote

You see a person off a ship who's not wearing a tricorn, doesn't have an eye patch or a wooden leg, and lacks a parrot on his shoulder.  What sort of person is this?

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Must be a pirate in disguise.

I get the humor.  I don't get why humor in place of answering questions.  Explain why you're not answering me, please?

TheDarkStar:

Quote from: TheDarkStar on December 07, 2013, 06:38:33 pm

Toaster had some interesting things in his post. His seemed to be multiple other people that we tend to have doubts about.

The part I bolded, what do you mean?

Quote from: TheDarkStar on December 08, 2013, 08:39:35 pm

Quote from: makeinu on December 08, 2013, 08:10:30 pm

Quote from: TheDarkStar on December 08, 2013, 07:24:58 pm

Quote from: makeinu on December 08, 2013, 07:10:24 pm

Quote from: TheDarkStar on December 08, 2013, 06:59:39 pm

Townie = specific role, town = town-aligned. War vet, Vigilante, Detective, etc. are all town roles.

Ah. Semantics, just not in the way I was thinking.

Yep, my words actually mean something.

As do mine. The distinction between Town, the alignment, and Townie, the role, is in the end irrelevant. Townies don't win or lose, Town does. So making a distinction between the two is a pointless semantics argument.

Not really, since I see you haven't claimed that you are a townie, just town-aligned.

Are you trying to pressure Makeinu into roleclaiming?

Makeinu:

Quote from: makeinu on December 07, 2013, 11:44:09 pm

Imp:
You post impressive walls (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=133676.msg4812967#msg4812967) of (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=133676.msg4815291#msg4815291) text (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=133676.msg4816034#msg4816034). While I certainly appreciate the play advice, I'm having some difficulties in parsing any actual substance out of a lot of what I've linked there. Would it be considered rude if I requested you summarize your suspicions?

It's not rude.  I try to post my Scum/Town list and reasoning before the end of each Day.  Never know if you're going to be here the next Day or not, say it toDay or maybe not at all.

---

• Toaster:  Initially very low activity, no reason given.  Initial posts a mix of scumhunting and joking.  Challenges that talking to all other players weakens Scumhunting by weakening focus of the players asking the questions and by lessening the fear others feel when questioned.  Appears very comfortable with Jim.  When challenged about low content of posts, becomes more active but doesn't answer my questions except with jokes that are not answers, asking if I'm serious, and pointing out that the joke used by Jim when not answering my questions was also the perfect response for my questions to Toaster.  Since being challenged has stepped up Scumhunting efforts and increased post content.  Claimed to be not very good as Town, especially lately because of poor focus making his game slip.  Medium lean Scum.

---

• TheDarkStar:  Unsure what type of newbie this one is.  No RVS questions, initial focus on makeinu, observations of scumminess and interpretations of makeinu's behavior as Scum, challenge to makeinu that he 'prove being non-scum' and apologizes if wrong.  Claims to intend to focus on reading posts and finding inconsistencies.  Returns to attack on Makeinu with case, 'trying too hard to look Town', but immediately backs away from it with an unvote and the statement that makeinu 'is not just making excuses'.  Says he wants makeinu investigated, waffles on his unvote of makeinu, says he never stopped being suspicious of makeinu.  When Toaster asks him for his other suspicions, TheDarkStar states Toaster is his other suspicion with the case 'not quoting context for TheDarkStar's scumhunting of makeinu and of defending makeinu'.  TheDarkStar challenges makeinu about claims of being town but not claiming a role (rolefishing), claims to be behind because he started play a day late, claims that 'everyone is equally suspected because almost everyone is being voted for' and that 'everyone is equally suspected because everyone is suspected by one or two people'.  Would not want to be in Lylo with this playstyle.  Medium lean Scum.

---

• makeinu:  Hard to classify.  Was extremely active and 'thoughtless' in playstyle, explained self extensively.  Hard for me to understand his motives and goals in play despite this - except to guess that he didn't have any goals except to 'play' at that point.  Has since reined in his exuberance.  Responded appropriately to TheDarkStar's possible rolefishing.  Appears to have some grasp how to play Mafia 'in specific', but not 'in general' (when pressured in certain ways, responds very correctly, when not pressured/generally pressured responds much like a very new newbie).  These reactions seem false/faked to me.  Would not want to be in Lylo with this playstyle.  Medium lean Scum.

---

• Sinlessmoon:  Absolutely avoidant player, who made the claim that he'd handle a seriously Scummy Scumbuddy by trying to distance himself from them as far as possible.  Fewest posts in game.  Claims this is his first Mafia game, to have read others but that was years ago and since forgotten.  Has asked one question, to makeinu, and chased that question once when makeinu hadn't answered, otherwise posts are answers to others' questions or comments about how he should play more and read and catch up.  Would not want to be in Lylo with this playstyle.  Low lean Scum.

---

• Persus13:  Mix of focus and confusion.  Seems to be following the game fairly closely, but spoke oddly about the 'possible NL' of Friday (maybe didn't count extend requests) and appeared surprised to be the third vote on Sinless.  Has done some Scumhunting, but mostly made statements and observations more than tried to draw more information out from most others, except those who have been absent from the game for a time (Sinlessmoon, Tiruin).  Null read, slight lean Scum.

---

• Jim Groovester:  Hard to read.  Initially low activity, reason given.  Has greatly stepped up activity and content, and appears more interested in the goings-on of the game after being asked to.  Somewhat comfortable with Toaster, who appears to be extremely comfortable with Jim.  Doesn't answer most of my questions, but Jim has done that to me once before and he was Town that game.  - Null read, slight lean Scum.

---

• Max White:  Hard to read.  Initial interaction with several other players, early focus on makeinu when makeinu answered a question directed by Max to Sinlessmoon.  Max reacted to Persus and Tiruin when they challenged him, challenging them back, especially Tiruin who started to question Persus about his challenge to Max.  I see difference from Max's S6 play (Max was Scum there and solidly tunneled nqt for about 80% of day 1, essentially ignoring everyone else except to answer questions and often redirecting that question's answer back to why nqt was Scummy).  Max disappeared about 1/4th the way through D1 this game, requested replacement three days later (2 days without weekend).  In S6, he was active for most of D1, going silent about 40 hours before end of day and active again during D2 and D3 until a bit after he was counterclaimed.  I'm not sure how much to classify Max's behavior as 'Max plays like this' or 'Max plays Scum like this'.  Null read.

---

• Tiruin:  Got very focused on Max fairly early, after a first post of reaction to others followed by some interest in makeinu's oddness.  When asked to summarize her arguments on Max, she instead answers Max's summary of arguments on her, then instead of summarizing her case lists and links all of her posts of interaction with Max.  May offer a summary of 'strange reasons' following those links, but that is not clear.  After Max goes quiet, Tiruin appears to refocus, scumhunting efforts directed to Caz, makeinu, and TheDarkStar, as well as a little more attention to the silent Max, then posts of thesis interview (had earlier posted of many RL interruptions interfering with her play) and has been essentially absent since (~4 days, 2 of them weekend).  Null read.

---

• Caz:  Seems reasonable this game.  When Caz was Scum in S6, I got a strong feel that I didn't want to talk to Caz, and Caz didn't want to talk to me.  This game I don't feel that.  Caz appears to be fairly broadly focused and to be interacting with most other players in the game, though there's a level of frivolity or insincerity that I find hard to understand in some of her posts (like the post where she made three votes in).  Null read, very slight lean Town.

---

• RangerCado:  Appears interested in the game.  Initially asked a question of every other player, has followed up with every player about either that question or something else that player has posted except with Sinlessmoon (who hasn't answered and is less than minimally active) and Imp (answered my questions but has not actually asked anything but that first RVS question of me).  Appears to be following the game fairly closely.  Slight lean Town.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23
Post by: Persus13 on December 09, 2013, 07:07:07 am

Imp: Look at this vote count that was the last one before my NL comment

Quote from: Mephansteras on December 06, 2013, 01:37:23 pm

The Whiteboard
makeinu: RangerCado
Max White: Persus13, Tiruin
Sinlessmoon: Caz, Imp
Tiruin: Max White

Now do you understand why I said this?

Quote from: Persus13 on December 06, 2013, 05:13:18 pm

Also, if there's no activity by day end where going to go into a NL. I don't want to give the dopps an advantage.

Also, sorry for lower activity, I've been busy with RL and the SPrint game has taken up most of my Mafia time.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23
Post by: Imp on December 09, 2013, 07:30:40 am

Quote from: Persus13 on December 09, 2013, 07:07:07 am

Imp: Look at this vote count that was the last one before my NL comment

Quote from: Mephansteras on December 06, 2013, 01:37:23 pm

The Whiteboard
makeinu: RangerCado
Max White: Persus13, Tiruin
Sinlessmoon: Caz, Imp
Tiruin: Max White

Now do you understand why I said this?

Quote from: Persus13 on December 06, 2013, 05:13:18 pm

Also, if there's no activity by day end where going to go into a NL. I don't want to give the dopps an advantage.

I would, if I didn't go back and check (or actually remember without checking) that you trimmed Meph's post.  Here's the original, it's not very long and you left all but one line intact:

Quote from: Mephansteras on December 06, 2013, 01:37:23 pm

The Whiteboard
makeinu: RangerCado
Max White: Persus13, Tiruin
Sinlessmoon: Caz, Imp
Tiruin: Max White

---

Day ends ~5 PM Pacific Today. There are 3 votes to Extend the day to Monday. 4 Votes total needed to Extend.

The part you trimmed is where Meph counts the extensions and says we have 3 and need 1 more.  Immediately after Meph's post (4 minutes after) is makeinu's extend, which without a shorten ensures that the game extends.  Just one shorten wouldn't make the day end early, and we'd be able to react to anyone voting shorten with the vote like that.

A little more than 2 hours later comes Jim's extend, so now we'd need 2 shortens to prevent extension.

And then your post an hour and a half later, where you say:

Quote from: Persus13 on December 06, 2013, 05:13:18 pm

Imp, Toaster seemed just to be making a flavor text reference. For the record, he wasn't exactly that active in the last Supernatural either, (although he did turn out to be converted scum). And for that matter, you don't have a lot of posts either. You're 4th in the overall post count.

Sinlessmoon: I really want to hear more from you.

Also, if there's no activity by day end where going to go into a NL. I don't want to give the dopps an advantage.

---

---

Thanks for explaining what I did not ask about.  You've made me more curious, so I'll humor us both and ask 'why are you saying you didn't notice Meph's extend count?  You bothered to trim it out of your quote, so you had to see it when you made this post to me today, right?'

---

---

---

Now would you please answer the questions I did ask?

Quote from: Imp on December 09, 2013, 04:47:00 am

Persus

Quote from: Persus13 on December 06, 2013, 05:13:18 pm

Imp, Toaster seemed just to be making a flavor text reference. For the record, he wasn't exactly that active in the last Supernatural either, (although he did turn out to be converted scum). And for that matter, you don't have a lot of posts either. You're 4th in the overall post count.

You're saying that you're fine with Toaster's activity here because he wasn't very active in S6, where he was converted to Scum?

And you're saying that I don't have a lot of posts either, because (when you posted this comment) three people had more posts than me and seven had fewer - what's the significance of this to you, and how does that compare to talking about people in last place for number of posts?

Title: Re: Paranormal 23
Post by: Persus13 on December 09, 2013, 07:44:04 am

Quote from: Imp on December 09, 2013, 07:30:40 am

Why did you not notice extend?

It doesn't matter. I was concerned about activity. I noticed the extend.

And I'm trying to do some homework and I'm getting distracted.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - [1 REPLACE NEEDED]
Post by: Tiruin on December 09, 2013, 08:20:15 am

SO.

Interview went well. Sparing posts were prioritized to BM Sprint (because darn time >_<)..and I'm coming back!

*skims recent posts*

Oh, Max. I'd still love to know why you did what you did in that matter despite you replacing in. You didn't offer Persus anything other than accuse me of 'interrupting' you, when something like that should've come out given that accusation, am I not right?

...
*browse-mode on*

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - [1 REPLACE NEEDED]
Post by: Toaster on December 09, 2013, 08:25:27 am

Quote from: Imp on December 09, 2013, 04:47:00 am

It bugs me that you and Jim appear to be perfectly comfortable with each other.  Your RVS question to him was part of a joke, you brush off my inquiries about what you mean and what you're doing by saying that Jim's joking non-answer to my questions for him was also the perfect response to my questions to you.

Why do you appear so comfortable with Jim in this game?

I am comfortable (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=125058.msg4285140;topicseen#msg4285140) with Jim (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=131512.msg4725231;topicseen#msg4725231) in every game because he's my ultimate Mafia-bro.  The nautical theme demanded pirate jokes, so he's the perfect target.

Quote from: Imp on December 09, 2013, 04:47:00 am

I get the humor.  I don't get why humor in place of answering questions.  Explain why you're not answering me, please?

I could give you a sob story and excuses* on why I hadn't put in much effort, or I could just make up for lost time and actually put in the effort.  I chose the latter.  If you have any specific outstanding questions that you want me to answer, let me know.

It's easy to bang out a few answers to direct questions and crack jokes when you have a short amount of interrupted time.  Knocking out real hunting takes time, which I didn't have until the two major posts of mine.  (Hell, it became two because I was interrupted part way through.)

Spoiler: * (click to show/hide)

My son was sick Friday night, I passed out way early on Thursday night, etc

Quote from: Imp on December 09, 2013, 04:47:00 am

Challenges that talking to all other players weakens Scumhunting by weakening focus of the players asking the questions and by lessening the fear others feel when questioned.

This is also not the first time this has come up. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=129509.msg4727136#msg4727136)  I just chose not to ignore it this time.

Quote from: Imp on December 09, 2013, 04:47:00 am

• Toaster:  Initially very low activity, no reason given.  Initial posts a mix of scumhunting and joking.  Challenges that talking to all other players weakens Scumhunting by weakening focus of the players asking the questions and by lessening the fear others feel when questioned.  Appears very comfortable with Jim.  When challenged about low content of posts, becomes more active but doesn't answer my questions except with jokes that are not answers, asking if I'm serious, and pointing out that the joke used by Jim when not answering my questions was also the perfect response for my questions to Toaster.  Since being challenged has stepped up Scumhunting efforts and increased post content.  Claimed to be not very good as Town, especially lately because of poor focus making his game slip.  Medium lean Scum.

---

• Jim Groovester:  Hard to read.  Initially low activity, reason given.  Has greatly stepped up activity and content, and appears more interested in the goings-on of the game after being asked to.  Somewhat comfortable with Toaster, who appears to be extremely comfortable with Jim.  Doesn't answer most of my questions, but Jim has done that to me once before and he was Town that game.  - Null read, slight lean Scum.

I can't help but notice that your itemization on myself and Jim is very similar, yet you give him a pass and vote me.  Why the discrepancy?

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - [1 REPLACE NEEDED]
Post by: RangerCado on December 09, 2013, 11:01:10 am

Quote from: Toaster

If your questions are less creative, are they less effective?

Toaster: Not really less effective, but more just a small annoyance to me. a pet-pive if you will.

Quote from: TheDarkStar on December 08, 2013, 09:33:22 pm

Quote from: Jim Groovester on December 08, 2013, 09:12:18 pm

HEY THEDARKSTAR

DO YOU HAVE MYOPIA OR SOMETHING

Quote from: Jim Groovester on December 07, 2013, 01:22:19 am

TheDarkStar, besides makeinu, who do you suspect?

Obviously, you didn't read.

Quote from: TheDarkStar on December 07, 2013, 06:38:33 pm

Toaster.

...Okay Darkstar, can you please give a summary of your case before day end? Because your case is pretty weak to me.

Sorry for not posting over the weekend here, but I was out of town for a bit, and I've still feeling under the weather. Also, Unvote. I'll have a final vote and case up before day end.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - [1 REPLACE NEEDED]
Post by: Mephansteras on December 09, 2013, 12:45:38 pm

The Whiteboard
Caz: Toaster
Max White: Persus13, Tiruin
Sinlessmoon: Caz
TheDarkStar: Jim Groovester, makeinu
Tiruin: Max White
Toaster: Imp, TheDarkStar

---

Day ends ~5pm Pacific Today (About 7 hours)

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - [1 REPLACE NEEDED]
Post by: Caz on December 09, 2013, 03:17:21 pm

Toaster

Quote from: Toaster on December 07, 2013, 03:27:40 pm

Quote

Caz:

Quote from: Caz on December 04, 2013, 08:22:26 am

Quote from: Max White on December 03, 2013, 06:58:51 pm

You were very quick to jump in on a question directed at me.

True, jumping in the middle of questions is a foul. The people call foul! Death to Tiruin!

Is this really a lynchable offense?

Hell, all three of your votes look like they're just "lol me too!" votes.  Why is this?

Dunno, it's your interpretation, not mine. The Tiruin vote was a bit making fun of Max's comment. I'll keep jokes to a minimum future since we're working through a fun shortage.

Quote

Quote from: Caz on December 04, 2013, 10:42:05 pm

Sinlessmoon, Toaster: Are you still with us?

Now you're jumping right off that.  Jump around some more?

Quote from: Caz on December 04, 2013, 10:43:25 pm

Quote from: makeinu on December 04, 2013, 10:41:07 pm

Sadly, I have to admit I'm better at playing scum than town...

I probably shouldn't admit that...

Are you townclaiming again? I swear I'll put my vote back on you -_- I will, damnit.

So do it.

Okay, got that read.  Caz, why are you flinging your vote around like crazy?  It's almost like you want to look active without being active.y Town.

Does throwing my vote around make me look active? I don't think it does. You're getting at me for that and you tell me to put my vote on makeinu, which is a direct contradiction in itself. Why do you want rid of makeinu to the extent that you'll undermine your own argument?

Quote from: Toaster on December 07, 2013, 08:37:55 pm

So is he scum for making excuses or scum for repeatably claiming town?

I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt on the excuses thing. The repeated townclaiming is what's most off about him atm.


makeinu

Quote from: makeinu on December 07, 2013, 11:44:09 pm

Likewise, I feel a blind lynch is bad, as mathematically it's advantage scum. If there's a real reason to lynch, then do, but lynch for the sake of lynching is no better or worse than an unintentional no lynch, in my opinion.

True, but it's not really a blind lynch at this point. As inaccurate as Day1 tells can be, we still have a fair chance to lynch scum. Putting aside the accuracy of a lynch, we also gain information for who voted who and can use this to build our Day2 cases. NLing gives us nothing but another dead townie come dawn.

TheDarkStar

Quote from: TheDarkStar on December 08, 2013, 08:39:35 pm

Not really, since I see you haven't claimed that you are a townie, just town-aligned.

Might thou be trying to rolefish? Careful now...

Quote from: Jim Groovester on December 08, 2013, 09:12:18 pm

DO YOU HAVE MYOPIA OR SOMETHING
IS THAT WHY YOU CANT SEE ANY OF MY POSTS

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Being myopic wouldn't hinder him unless he's sitting 10ft from the screen. Mayhaps you mean hyperopia aka longsightedness.

Quote from: TheDarkStar on December 08, 2013, 10:13:53 pm

I missed the first day of play, so of course I will be about a day behind in investigations.

This is an excuse. You didn't miss anything - all of the posts are still available to read.

Quote from: TheDarkStar on December 08, 2013, 10:13:53 pm

Why aren't you looking at Persus13, who hasn't voted for anyone?

Why don't we look at you instead?


Sinlessmoon: I initially voted you to see if you'd come out of hiding and play with us, but it seems to have little effect so far. So there my vote will stay until you make some meaningful input.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - [1 REPLACE NEEDED]
Post by: Jim Groovester on December 09, 2013, 05:02:02 pm

I will be the first to point out that as the votes stand currently there is a tie.

Quote from: Imp on December 09, 2013, 04:47:00 am

I see avoidance of answering.  Why aren't you answering these questions?

I did answer. The robot is you. Apparently there's no room for jokes because mafia is srs bsns.

Quote from: Imp on December 09, 2013, 04:47:00 am

Because it doesn't make sense to me except as active lurking and deflection.

I don't believe you. There's no way you're getting this worked up over a fucking joke.

Quote from: Imp on December 09, 2013, 04:47:00 am

• TOASTER MADE A JOKE AND I HATE IT

Why is Toaster's joking a worse offense compared to the other people who rate highly on your scum list?

Quote from: Imp on December 09, 2013, 04:47:00 am

and appears more interested in the goings-on of the game after being asked to.

I did not become more active in the game because I was asked to, I became more active because my schedule permitted it.

Quote from: Caz on December 09, 2013, 03:17:21 pm

Being myopic wouldn't hinder him unless he's sitting 10ft from the screen. Mayhaps you mean hyperopia aka longsightedness.

You don't say.

Quote from: Caz on December 09, 2013, 03:17:21 pm

Sinlessmoon: I initially voted you to see if you'd come out of hiding and play with us, but it seems to have little effect so far. So there my vote will stay until you make some meaningful input.

An excellent do-nothing vote, if I do so say so myself, utilizing one of the most time-honored scum tactics of going after lurkers.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - [1 REPLACE NEEDED]
Post by: TheDarkStar on December 09, 2013, 05:38:05 pm

Quote from: Jim Groovester on December 08, 2013, 11:53:18 pm

lololol myopia lololololol

There's a term for this called "ad hominem". It means ignoring other things and making personal attacks. So far, you've had one of these in most of the posts directed to me because I wasn't posting things. However, there are things I do called real life that take some of my time away, so I am unable to be here 24 hours a day (although I'm usually here for a few hours).

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - [1 REPLACE NEEDED]
Post by: TheDarkStar on December 09, 2013, 05:47:19 pm

Quote from: Imp on December 09, 2013, 04:47:00 am

TheDarkStar:

Quote from: TheDarkStar on December 07, 2013, 06:38:33 pm

Toaster had some interesting things in his post. His seemed to be multiple other people that we tend to have doubts about.

The part I bolded, what do you mean?

Quote from: TheDarkStar on December 08, 2013, 08:39:35 pm

Quote from: makeinu on December 08, 2013, 08:10:30 pm

Quote from: TheDarkStar on December 08, 2013, 07:24:58 pm

Quote from: makeinu on December 08, 2013, 07:10:24 pm

Quote from: TheDarkStar on December 08, 2013, 06:59:39 pm

Townie = specific role, town = town-aligned. War vet, Vigilante, Detective, etc. are all town roles.

Ah. Semantics, just not in the way I was thinking.

Yep, my words actually mean something.

As do mine. The distinction between Town, the alignment, and Townie, the role, is in the end irrelevant. Townies don't win or lose, Town does. So making a distinction between the two is a pointless semantics argument.

Not really, since I see you haven't claimed that you are a townie, just town-aligned.

Are you trying to pressure Makeinu into roleclaiming?

No I am not. I am pointing out that he seems to have a power role and should not come up as a townie to any investigator roles who check him. I was not intending to pressure him for a role (even though it may have sounded that way if read a different way); I was just trying to point something out for anyone who checks him tonight or future nights.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - Trouble at Sea
Post by: TheDarkStar on December 09, 2013, 05:48:39 pm

Quote from: Toaster on December 08, 2013, 11:35:33 pm

TheDarkStar:

Quote from: Toaster on December 08, 2013, 10:31:06 pm

Quote

Hard to quote inline answers

How, exactly, am I defending Makeinu?

You're excusing the arguments against him.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - [1 REPLACE NEEDED]
Post by: TheDarkStar on December 09, 2013, 05:49:50 pm

Quote from: TheDarkStar on December 09, 2013, 05:47:19 pm

Quote from: Imp on December 09, 2013, 04:47:00 am

TheDarkStar:

Quote from: TheDarkStar on December 07, 2013, 06:38:33 pm

Toaster had some interesting things in his post. His seemed to be multiple other people that we tend to have doubts about.

The part I bolded, what do you mean?

Quote from: TheDarkStar on December 08, 2013, 08:39:35 pm

Quote from: makeinu on December 08, 2013, 08:10:30 pm

Quote from: TheDarkStar on December 08, 2013, 07:24:58 pm

Quote from: makeinu on December 08, 2013, 07:10:24 pm

Quote from: TheDarkStar on December 08, 2013, 06:59:39 pm

Townie = specific role, town = town-aligned. War vet, Vigilante, Detective, etc. are all town roles.

Ah. Semantics, just not in the way I was thinking.

Yep, my words actually mean something.

As do mine. The distinction between Town, the alignment, and Townie, the role, is in the end irrelevant. Townies don't win or lose, Town does. So making a distinction between the two is a pointless semantics argument.

Not really, since I see you haven't claimed that you are a townie, just town-aligned.

Are you trying to pressure Makeinu into roleclaiming?

No I am not. I am pointing out that he seems to have a power role and should not come up as a townie to any investigator roles who check him. I was not intending to pressure him for a role (even though it may have sounded that way if read a different way); I was just trying to point something out for anyone who checks him tonight or future nights.

Also, here's what I meant by His seemed to be multiple other people that we tend to have doubts about:

His seemed to be DEFENDING multiple other people that we tend to have doubts about. Typos happen.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - [1 REPLACE NEEDED]
Post by: TheDarkStar on December 09, 2013, 06:09:43 pm

Quote from: Persus13 on December 08, 2013, 11:15:19 pm

TheDarkStar: Have you played Mafia before?

I have played mafia before, but just not Bay 12 Mafia (as I have said before). It has a very different culture than I am used to seeing, even if the game is the same.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - [1 REPLACE NEEDED]
Post by: Imp on December 09, 2013, 06:42:24 pm

PFP 90 minutes to day end.

Compromise vote time.  Max White, TheDarkStar, and Toaster are tied for first place.  I can compromise to Dark or Max.  TheDarkStar's my second Scum pick.  I'll be watching votes as best as work allows in case a tie reappears or other votes are placed.  If work slows down enough I'll be able to answer and ask before day end.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - [1 REPLACE NEEDED]
Post by: makeinu on December 09, 2013, 06:48:57 pm

Quote from: TheDarkStar on December 09, 2013, 05:47:19 pm

Quote from: Imp on December 09, 2013, 04:47:00 am

TheDarkStar:

Quote from: TheDarkStar on December 07, 2013, 06:38:33 pm

Toaster had some interesting things in his post. His seemed to be multiple other people that we tend to have doubts about.

The part I bolded, what do you mean?

Quote from: TheDarkStar on December 08, 2013, 08:39:35 pm

Quote from: makeinu on December 08, 2013, 08:10:30 pm

Quote from: TheDarkStar on December 08, 2013, 07:24:58 pm

Quote from: makeinu on December 08, 2013, 07:10:24 pm

Quote from: TheDarkStar on December 08, 2013, 06:59:39 pm

Townie = specific role, town = town-aligned. War vet, Vigilante, Detective, etc. are all town roles.

Ah. Semantics, just not in the way I was thinking.

Yep, my words actually mean something.

As do mine. The distinction between Town, the alignment, and Townie, the role, is in the end irrelevant. Townies don't win or lose, Town does. So making a distinction between the two is a pointless semantics argument.

Not really, since I see you haven't claimed that you are a townie, just town-aligned.

Are you trying to pressure Makeinu into roleclaiming?

No I am not. I am pointing out that he seems to have a power role and should not come up as a townie to any investigator roles who check him. I was not intending to pressure him for a role (even though it may have sounded that way if read a different way); I was just trying to point something out for anyone who checks him tonight or future nights.

I want to trim this down, but it's such a lovely quote pyramid. I think I can touch the sky from here.

So, what seemed on the face of it to be a blatant push for a role-claim on D1 (to me a strong scum-tell) was really just a hidden attempt to defend me just in case I was investigated and came up not Town?

Just so I'm clear here that you're actually defending me here. Because otherwise I'm completely baffled.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - [1 REPLACE NEEDED]
Post by: Persus13 on December 09, 2013, 06:58:11 pm

Quote from: Imp on December 09, 2013, 04:47:00 am

Persus

Quote from: Persus13 on December 06, 2013, 05:13:18 pm

Imp, Toaster seemed just to be making a flavor text reference. For the record, he wasn't exactly that active in the last Supernatural either, (although he did turn out to be converted scum). And for that matter, you don't have a lot of posts either. You're 4th in the overall post count.

You're saying that you're fine with Toaster's activity here because he wasn't very active in S6, where he was converted to Scum?

And you're saying that I don't have a lot of posts either, because (when you posted this comment) three people had more posts than me and seven had fewer - what's the significance of this to you, and how does that compare to talking about people in last place for number of posts?

My point was that Toaster wasn't very active either D1 or any of the other days. To me at least there wasn't a notable difference in his activity, but they were low throughout the game.

Normally you are number 1 in the post count. There this thing in Statistics known as z-scores that measure the deviation from a mean. At the moment I'd estimate that your z-score for this game is lower than Toaster's z-score.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - [1 REPLACE NEEDED]
Post by: RangerCado on December 09, 2013, 07:38:38 pm

In the end for me, its come down to who do I feel I feel is the biggest threat to the town right now and honestly, its Darkstar for me. I've stated why before, and others have as well. Be I wrong, I will face the consequences. Sorry man, it was fun.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - [1 REPLACE NEEDED]
Post by: makeinu on December 09, 2013, 07:48:37 pm

I originally voted TheDarkStar as a pressure vote. I'm not convinced he's scum, but I'm not unconvinced either.

Same with Max.

Of the two, right now, it's a coin-flip for me, BUT Max has asked for replacement and there doesn't seem to be a taker yet. As much as I'd like to see what another player would do in his stead, but I think it'd be better for the game to just lynch him out rather than keep waiting.

Other thoughts?

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - [1 REPLACE NEEDED]
Post by: Mephansteras on December 09, 2013, 08:07:30 pm

The Whiteboard
Caz: Toaster
Max White: Persus13, Tiruin
Sinlessmoon: Caz
TheDarkStar: Imp, Jim Groovester, makeinu, RangerCado
Toaster: TheDarkStar


  The consensus isn't exactly overwhelming, but the day has dragged on for far too long and at this point everyone is tired.

  TheDarkStar's time is up. He looks around frantically, hoping for some sort of support or reprieve. But none comes.

  RangerCado picks up the pistol that you found in the Captain's cabin. "Sorry, buddy, can't be too sure though." He levels the gun and TheDarkStar tries to rise up and leave. Jim and Imp hold him down, though, and the bullet goes clean through his forehead.

  You watch for a few tense moments, and then see the change. His features melt away, his hair dissolves, and his fingers sprout horrible claws. A Doppelganger for sure. You check out his cabin, but he doesn't seem to have anything too interesting about it. Seems he was a normal crewman, at least. You do notice that he had a distinct absence of electronics in his room or on his person, though. One of those weirdos with an Anti-Tech aura, perhaps?

  In any case, you're off to a great start. Now you just need to survive the night.

---

Night has fallen. Send in your actions!

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Night 1 - [1 REPLACE NEEDED]
Post by: Mephansteras on December 11, 2013, 08:22:26 pm

  You all gather in the mess. A pot of coffee is put on, and you eat a bit of what passes for food on this ship. You wait a bit, but eventually it becomes clear that Caz isn't going to join you. With some worried glances all around, you head off to her cabin to see what might have happened to her.
 
  She's just...gone. The cabin door isn't locked, and there is no evidence that she slept in her bed. But there is no blood and no sign of a struggle. You wonder what became of her, but for now you head back to the mess. You still have to conduct the day's trial, Caz's dissapearence not withstanding.

---

Day 2 has started. It will go until ~5pm Pacific Monday

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 2 - [1 REPLACE NEEDED]
Post by: RangerCado on December 11, 2013, 08:36:54 pm

...So we have a Harvester or Xenologist loose? Well, this just got interesting.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 2 - [1 REPLACE NEEDED]
Post by: makeinu on December 11, 2013, 08:58:56 pm

Quote from: RangerCado on December 11, 2013, 08:36:54 pm

...So we have a Harvester or Xenologist loose? Well, this just got interesting.

*checks over roles listing....*

*raises hand slowly*

Noob question? I can, and will, dig through previous Paranormal games as I have time, but.... okay.... so....

The Xenozoologist abducts and permanently removes from play, if the target is a species it hasn't already collected. Could be that because, N1, obviously, no duplicates yet.

The Harvester either kills the player or steals it's role and win condition, depending on the variety. Could be that, and I assume Mind Stealer because there's no body.

If it's the latter, what happens to the player? They revert to a vanilla role, it says, but are they out for a day?

I don't understand exactly whether Caz is dead or just one-day silenced.

And both of these are threats to the Town, or just the Harvester?

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 2 - [1 REPLACE NEEDED]
Post by: Tiruin on December 11, 2013, 09:02:38 pm

So I'm late and argh. Stuff was bad.

Quickpost as I get my original post..which would've happened before day end.

---

makeinu

Quote from: makeinu on December 11, 2013, 08:58:56 pm

Quote from: RangerCado on December 11, 2013, 08:36:54 pm

...So we have a Harvester or Xenologist loose? Well, this just got interesting.

*checks over roles listing....*

*raises hand slowly*

...You raise your hand..why?

---

Ranger

Quote from: RangerCado on December 11, 2013, 08:36:54 pm

...So we have a Harvester or Xenologist loose? Well, this just got interesting.

Side commentary? What else have you to say?

---

---

Meph: Caz is male for the record. :P

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 2 - [1 REPLACE NEEDED]
Post by: makeinu on December 11, 2013, 09:04:36 pm

Because I was taught it's polite to raise one's hand with questions. :P


Also, only one night "kill" (strike?) so that means.....?

No action from the Dopplegangers? Or nicely chosen protection order...?

I'm asking these as questions, but they're not really questions. It almost certainly has to be one of those thr... er, ... wait.... two. Two.

'Cause no way the dopps would choose to skip a night, not after yesterday.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 2 - [1 REPLACE NEEDED]
Post by: Tiruin on December 11, 2013, 09:10:00 pm

Quote from: makeinu on December 11, 2013, 09:04:36 pm

Also, only one night "kill" (strike?) so that means.....?

No action from the Dopplegangers? Or nicely chosen protection order...?

I'm asking these as questions, but they're not really questions. It almost certainly has to be one of those thr... er, ... wait.... two. Two.

...You can guess that the Dopps, if you aren't one, were either blocked, or redirected to someone immune, or didn't choose to kill--or anything interrupted their kill.
Why're you thinking about that given the...narrow set of results?
One NK means..one night kill per night per faction, unless you mean NK in general.

Quote from: makeinu on December 11, 2013, 09:04:36 pm

'Cause no way the dopps would choose to skip a night, not after yesterday.

This sounds more like a conclusion than anything like speculation.

Could I ask how you got to this?

---

Nextly: What exactly don't you understand about this game, compared to what you understand about Mafia?

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 2 - [1 REPLACE NEEDED]
Post by: makeinu on December 11, 2013, 09:32:58 pm

Sorry. This sort of went all over the place as I thought out loud on the screen. I can't figure how to make it more coherent...

Quote from: Tiruin on December 11, 2013, 09:10:00 pm

Quote from: makeinu on December 11, 2013, 09:04:36 pm

Also, only one night "kill" (strike?) so that means.....?

No action from the Dopplegangers? Or nicely chosen protection order...?

I'm asking these as questions, but they're not really questions. It almost certainly has to be one of those thr... er, ... wait.... two. Two.

...You can guess that the Dopps, if you aren't one, were either blocked, or redirected to someone immune, or didn't choose to kill--or anything interrupted their kill.

That's exactly what I am assuming...

Quote

Why're you thinking about that given the...narrow set of results?
One NK means..one night kill per night per faction, unless you mean NK in general.

Which goes to the final answer below, which has refinement questions in it.

Quote

Quote from: makeinu on December 11, 2013, 09:04:36 pm

'Cause no way the dopps would choose to skip a night, not after yesterday.

This sounds more like a conclusion than anything like speculation.

Could I ask how you got to this?

Extrapolating. "What would I do if..."

One night kill happened. Assume one night kill per scum faction OR one for the scum faction and one independent "killer", which both of those Alien roles can be cast as, if I'm reading them right. Which I'm not certain, hence... uncertainty. Because if it's the former, then, okay, it's night-kill OR use power, but if it's the latter, night-kill didn't happen. I assume latter, and a no-kill order from the scum faction is bad play because they're down one of three already, and they're as much a target for the Alien(s) as Town is.

And if that's right, then it still matters what happened to Caz. Abducted means coming back once certain conditions are met, i.e., the Xenozoologist is killed, or released by the Harvester if it's of the Mind Stealer variety?

Quote

Nextly: What exactly don't you understand about this game, compared to what you understand about Mafia?

I'm trying to suss the different factions, and it's easier to ask. Town (human), Aliens, Doppelgangers, I assume are all separate factions. Do the Aliens and the Doppelgangers normally work together, or in opposition, i.e., both are scum (I assume), but are they one faction or two?

If they're one, and we know from the only night "kill" that it was an Alien, that means Aliens replace humans as well? If they're two factions, then we're possibly not down three Town from start, we're down more, which tightens the odds a bit. Independents always do. Three Doppelgangers and #? Aliens?

We know three crew were replaced, from the OP. We don't know if one of those replaces was an Alien, or I don't anyway, or if there's a fourth or fifth crew "missing" as well, only we don't know because they weren't body replaced as the Doppelgangers do it.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 2 - [1 REPLACE NEEDED]
Post by: Persus13 on December 11, 2013, 09:41:09 pm

Yay, we lynched correctly yesterday (at least, the four of you who voted DarkStar did)! And thanks for teaching me a scum-tell for new players.

So no dopp kill. Huh?

Meph: Do we find out what Caz's role or alignment was at all?

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 2 - [1 REPLACE NEEDED]
Post by: Tiruin on December 11, 2013, 09:47:57 pm

Well, I'm basing my inferance from previous knowledge.

Guess what I was in the past Paranormal~The Alien [Organ] Harvester. No mention of me was in the flavor (and given Meph's flexibility, I do note that we shouldn't base such things as presence of who and what from flavor, but the number of who or what is present).

Nextly:
Empirical evidence states that:

Quote from: Mephansteras on December 11, 2013, 08:22:26 pm

  You all gather in the mess. A pot of coffee is put on, and you eat a bit of what passes for food on this ship. You wait a bit, but eventually it becomes clear that Caz isn't going to join you. With some worried glances all around, you head off to her cabin to see what might have happened to her.
 
  She's just...gone. The cabin door isn't locked, and there is no evidence that she slept in her bed. But there is no blood and no sign of a struggle. You wonder what became of her, but for now you head back to the mess. You still have to conduct the day's trial, Caz's dissapearence not withstanding.

ie: he was abducted--attacked or struck before she could get back to her room or perform any action. From memory, I doubt that Dopps can do this.
Or we've got a XZ (XenoZoologist) present--who I believe is more of a neutral faction than a hostile/malevolent force.

---

Quote from: makeinu on December 11, 2013, 09:32:58 pm

I'm trying to suss the different factions, and it's easier to ask. Town (human), Aliens, Doppelgangers, I assume are all separate factions. Do the Aliens and the Doppelgangers normally work together, or in opposition, i.e., both are scum (I assume), but are they one faction or two?

If they're one, and we know from the only night "kill" that it was an Alien, that means Aliens replace humans as well? If they're two factions, then we're possibly not down three Town from start, we're down more, which tightens the odds a bit. Independents always do. Three Doppelgangers and #? Aliens?

We know three crew were replaced, from the OP. We don't know if one of those replaces was an Alien, or I don't anyway, or if there's a fourth or fifth crew "missing" as well, only we don't know because they weren't body replaced as the Doppelgangers do it.

The separate factions work according to their goals--but it can be inferred that Dopps are one whole faction; Humans are one whole faction and Aliens work according to their role goal, and may be individualists or faction-aligned (in the case of an Exterminator + Exterminator Operative) but generally are third-party. Whether benevolent or malevolent is usually up to debate.

---

---

---

Persus

Quote from: Persus13 on December 11, 2013, 09:41:09 pm

Yay, we lynched correctly yesterday (at least, the four of you who voted DarkStar did)! And thanks for teaching me a scum-tell for new players.

So no dopp kill. Huh?

Meph: Do we find out what Caz's role or alignment was at all?

Why're you happy?
Next: Expound the bolded portion

And I'll try to explain the thing to Meph: When a player is abducted (and NOT killed), they don't roleflip. When they die, they roleflip. So we can easily infer that Caz is alive and will only flip if:
a. His organs are harvested and thus, he gets thrown away as darn insipid trash while we inspect the body and..well, it'll be (more likely than not) obvious via flavor.
b. The captor dies and he returns..which I guess won't be a flip.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 2 - [1 REPLACE NEEDED]
Post by: TheDarkStar on December 11, 2013, 09:56:26 pm

Well, at least I learned something from dying: Make better arguments and remove the scum-tells. Goodbye and good luck to all scum.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 2 - [1 REPLACE NEEDED]
Post by: Toaster on December 11, 2013, 09:57:21 pm

Makeinu:  One nice thing about Paranormal games is the flavor is very consistent.  You can tell what faction did a kill by how the player died.  (Vigs and PGOs use guns, dopp kills leave a bloody mess and little to no body, and aliens use energy weapons and leave half-melted corpses.)  Also, if you're blocked by a Psychic Warden, the flavor will mention chains- things like that.

Now, with a player missing, you are correct that it's either an Xenozoologist or a Harvester.  If Caz comes back tomorrow, it's a Mind Stealer.  If not, either a Xenozoologist or an Organ Harvester.  We won't know that distinction until D3.  The Xenozoologist is more of an Outsider win condition, since it doesn't care about dopps or town winning.  That said, it's typically considered a bit pro-town since it wants to leave with two townies, a dopp, and an alien, which are typically anti-town- trading two townies for two anti-town players is a good trade.

The Mind Stealer is oddball and I don't think we've had one.  The Organ Harvester is clearly anti-town (and anti-dopp.)  Based on the low player count, I'd say the Xenozoologist is unlikely (but that's no guarantee.)

Oh wait, there's one more option- an Exterminator with Combat Camo.  I THINK the player is found dead the next day in that case.

As far as no kill, there are a few options:

1.  The dopp team targeted Caz.  When a player is abducted, all other actions fail on them.
2.  The dopp that used the kill was blocked.
3.  The dopp target was either protected or hit an alien shield.
4.  The dopp that used the kill was redirected (Mind Control Ray) back to another dopp- IIRC that causes them to not kill.  Or maybe that's only if redirected to self.
5.  The dopp team chose not to kill.


The top three options are the most likely.

Quote from: makeinu on December 11, 2013, 09:32:58 pm

I'm trying to suss the different factions, and it's easier to ask. Town (human), Aliens, Doppelgangers, I assume are all separate factions. Do the Aliens and the Doppelgangers normally work together, or in opposition, i.e., both are scum (I assume), but are they one faction or two?

If they're one, and we know from the only night "kill" that it was an Alien, that means Aliens replace humans as well? If they're two factions, then we're possibly not down three Town from start, we're down more, which tightens the odds a bit. Independents always do. Three Doppelgangers and #? Aliens?

We know three crew were replaced, from the OP. We don't know if one of those replaces was an Alien, or I don't anyway, or if there's a fourth or fifth crew "missing" as well, only we don't know because they weren't body replaced as the Doppelgangers do it.

Town and Dopps are just town and scum.  Each Alien has a different goal, but none of them are directly aligned with the dopp team.  (Survivors typically favor the scum team, since a win with them is faster.)

By the pod count, we know the scum team has three original members.  Aliens do not get counted by this, nor do Rogue Dopps.  All aliens have some sort of tech that makes them appear human during the day (this is flavor only.)


Does this clear things up?


(PS I know there's no content in this post)

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 2 - [1 REPLACE NEEDED]
Post by: makeinu on December 11, 2013, 10:08:54 pm

Quote from: Tiruin on December 11, 2013, 09:47:57 pm

Well, I'm basing my inferance from previous knowledge.

Thanks. That's what I was looking for. Such inferences aren't necessarily perfect, but they're informative.

Quote

The separate factions work according to their goals--but it can be inferred that Dopps are one whole faction; Humans are one whole faction and Aliens work according to their role goal, and may be individualists or faction-aligned (in the case of an Exterminator + Exterminator Operative) but generally are third-party. Whether benevolent or malevolent is usually up to debate.

Okay. That's what I was assuming. Just wanted to sound-board my thought process.

Quote

And I'll try to explain the thing to Meph: When a player is abducted (and NOT killed), they don't roleflip. When they die, they roleflip. So we can easily infer that Caz is alive and will only flip if:
a. His organs are harvested and thus, he gets thrown away as darn insipid trash while we inspect the body and..well, it'll be (more likely than not) obvious via flavor.
b. The captor dies and he returns..which I guess won't be a flip.

This was also my thinking. So, either the Alien has to die, because Zenozoologist, or Caz comes back tomorrow(?) as vanilla whatever he was, because Mind Stealer.

This also makes me think only one alien, since, again, only one night action. Speculation: maybe the dopps targeted Caz as well? Since abductions precede kills...


PPE: ninja'd by Toaster. Very helpful meta-knowledge, thank you.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 2 - [1 REPLACE NEEDED]
Post by: makeinu on December 11, 2013, 10:11:12 pm

Sorry, I'll stop spamming, but...

I meant to say:

Quote

So, either the Alien has to die, because Zenozoologist or Organ Harvester, or Caz comes back tomorrow(?) as vanilla whatever he was, because Mind Stealer.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 2 - [1 REPLACE NEEDED]
Post by: Toaster on December 11, 2013, 10:15:24 pm

Right.


Or dead tomorrow because of Combat Camo, I think.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 2 - [1 REPLACE NEEDED]
Post by: makeinu on December 11, 2013, 10:19:39 pm

Mind-fuck. Thanks for pointing THAT out. :P

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 2 - [1 REPLACE NEEDED]
Post by: Jim Groovester on December 11, 2013, 11:09:50 pm

Quote from: makeinu on December 11, 2013, 08:58:56 pm

The Xenozoologist abducts and permanently removes from play, if the target is a species it hasn't already collected. Could be that because, N1, obviously, no duplicates yet.

I doubt it's a Xenozoologist because oh dammit Toaster already explained all of this.

Quote from: Toaster on December 11, 2013, 09:57:21 pm

1.  The dopp team targeted Caz.  When a player is abducted, all other actions fail on them.
2.  The dopp that used the kill was blocked.
3.  The dopp target was either protected or hit an alien shield.
4.  The dopp that used the kill was redirected (Mind Control Ray) back to another dopp- IIRC that causes them to not kill.  Or maybe that's only if redirected to self.
5.  The dopp team chose not to kill.

It's also possible that Caz was performing the night kill, since abductions happen before night kills. I suppose that technically falls under category two.

Quote from: RangerCado on December 11, 2013, 08:36:54 pm

...So we have a Harvester or Xenologist loose? Well, this just got interesting.

Yes, it has.

Is that all you're going to start the day with?

I note that you bussed TheDarkStar after a long day of voting makeinu. What's your opinion of him now, and who are your suspects?

Quote from: Persus13 on December 11, 2013, 09:41:09 pm

Yay, we lynched correctly yesterday (at least, the four of you who voted DarkStar did)! And thanks for teaching me a scum-tell for new players.

So no dopp kill. Huh?

Meph: Do we find out what Caz's role or alignment was at all?

Supposedly it's a scumtell to be congratulatory about lynching scum, or celebrating the lack of a kill.

Whatcha think of that? And who are your suspects today?

Mephansteras, does Sinlessmoon require a prod or replacement? Just so it's clear, I'm not asking you to prod him, I'm asking if he needs one.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 2 - [1 REPLACE NEEDED]
Post by: Persus13 on December 11, 2013, 11:42:28 pm

Quote from: Tiruin on December 11, 2013, 09:47:57 pm

Why're you happy?

This is the first game I've been in where scum got lynched D1, and I thought you guys were getting worked up about a new person. Were one step closer to victory and I have knew info on newby scumtells, something I was lacking earlier.

Quote from: Tiruin on December 11, 2013, 09:47:57 pm

Next: Expound the bolded portion

No apparent Scum kill N1 is new for me (as in Supernatural I thought I had been targeted by the scum N1)

Quote from: Jim Groovester on December 11, 2013, 11:09:50 pm

Supposedly it's a scumtell to be congratulatory about lynching scum, or celebrating the lack of a kill.

Whatcha think of that? And who are your suspects today?

I don't really care, seems like a perfectly reasonable thing for anyone to do.

My suspects are Tiruin (Only voted Max yesterday), Imp (seems odd, scumhunting Toaster for A JOKE, which is much easier to make than a WOT analysis post, and friendliness), and you (scummy feeling, not sure why). Caz also seems suspicious to me but I have no clue where he is. How about you?

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 2 - [1 REPLACE NEEDED]
Post by: RangerCado on December 11, 2013, 11:49:32 pm

Tiruin: I didn't have much time past that so it was just a quick thoughts post, nothing more.

Jim: Assumed guilty until proven innocent... okay, I can deal with this. Why would I make a mistake like that when Dark was going to be lynched anyway? Adding that last vote was me trying to prevent a last second tie if someone was planning it, however unlikely. I'm not stupid enough to make such an obvious bus if I were a dopp, and voting makeinu wasn't getting me anywhere, and my arguement against him wasn't holding anything with me. In the morning, I'll be taking a longer look at the previous posts and see if I can find any clues. Also, have things normalized enough in your life for you to be able to play fully now?

makeinu: Speculating on where the kill went isn't very productive... but I've done that plenty myself in previous games so I can't fault you for it. We will likely know Caz's fate tomorrow, so lets focus on this day. Also, do you have a suspect or two today?

Persus: Can you expound on why your suspicious of Imp more? Yes where the scum hunting started was odd, but we all have to start somewhere so I'm not sure where your reasoning is coming from. If you would be so kind as to explain?

In the morning, I search through to see if I can find any hints as to what Caz might be. If it IS an Organ Harvester, we would do well to know what we'll be dealing with. Night all.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 2 - [1 REPLACE NEEDED]
Post by: makeinu on December 12, 2013, 12:00:33 am

Quote from: Jim Groovester on December 11, 2013, 11:09:50 pm

I note that you bussed TheDarkStar after a long day of voting makeinu. What's your opinion of him now, and who are your suspects?

I'm not sure in what sense you're using the term "bussed" here, Jim. I did vote for him while he was pursuing his blatantly obvious tactic of pushing for a role-claim, which semi-cemented my scumdar on him as a valid target, eclipsing the WIFOM feeling that I was reacting negatively because of OMGUS.

The only reason for that last post of the day was, well, Max had asked for a replacement, and he was already on my scum shortlist anyway. All in all, I'm happy with the day's turnout.

As for suspects, Caz was low on the shortlist, still is I suppose. Imp is long on verbiage, which is a personal scum-tell, though a weak one, and his list doesn't match mine, so he's low on that list as well, but on it. Max White (well, we shall see how his replacement picks up that and runs with it) is definitely on my list. Highest, right now, in fact, alongside one other I'm playing close to the chest for the moment.

And I'm with Persus here. Only once before have I seen a scum lynched on D1, rarely seen no scum kill on N1, never seen both happen in the same game, and I've never seen that particular scum-tell before either. So, yay! Party time! Who's got the cake?

---

PPE:

RangerCado: it's productive in that it helps me understand the specifics of the game, and get some confirmation my thinking isn't all left-field.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 2 - [1 REPLACE NEEDED]
Post by: Persus13 on December 12, 2013, 12:06:22 am

Quote from: RangerCado on December 11, 2013, 11:49:32 pm

Persus: Can you expound on why your suspicious of Imp more? Yes where the scum hunting started was odd, but we all have to start somewhere so I'm not sure where your reasoning is coming from. If you would be so kind as to explain?

Imp seems off to me. She was attacking Toaster for something that seemed completely odd to me. I understand getting annoyed about inactivity, especially from a very experienced player, but it is much easier to crack a joke than to scumhunt. I tend to get annoyed at people attacking others for RL issues as well, and that also played part of it. Imp just feels different this game as compared to the others I've played with her. I had a similar feeling at the beginning of Supernatural, but this time I think it's different.

Quote from: makeinu on December 12, 2013, 12:00:33 am

Imp is long on verbiage

That's completely normal for Imp. In the last BM there was one of post of hers we called the Behemoth because it was gigantic.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 2 - [1 REPLACE NEEDED]
Post by: Mephansteras on December 12, 2013, 12:06:53 am

Quote from: Jim Groovester on December 11, 2013, 11:09:50 pm

Mephansteras, does Sinlessmoon require a prod or replacement? Just so it's clear, I'm not asking you to prod him, I'm asking if he needs one.

Sinlessmoon contacted me during the night phase and said he didn't need to be replaced, so we're ok for now.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 2 - [1 REPLACE NEEDED]
Post by: makeinu on December 12, 2013, 12:14:28 am

Quote from: Persus13 on December 12, 2013, 12:06:22 am

Quote from: makeinu on December 12, 2013, 12:00:33 am

Imp is long on verbiage

That's completely normal for Imp. In the last BM there was one of post of hers we called the Behemoth because it was gigantic.

I'm getting that overall impression. I'm quite capable of the impressive WoT, tl;dr, yawn-busters, myself, but in mafia, in general, I find that to be a good smokescreen. If you can't dazzle 'em with brilliance, baffle 'em with bullshit, as the saying goes.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 2 - [1 REPLACE NEEDED]
Post by: Jim Groovester on December 12, 2013, 12:26:56 am

Quote from: Persus13 on December 11, 2013, 11:42:28 pm

How about you?

I'm still working on it, and I'll do a more thorough read of Day 1 sometime after my finals, but on quick skim RangerCado had a weak Day 1, so I'm somewhat suspicious of that. I'm also curious whether Sinlessmoon is doing some serious hardcore mega ultra lurking and getting away with it, and I suppose with nothing new from Max White my previous read on him still holds, i.e., somewhat suspicious.

Quote from: RangerCado on December 11, 2013, 11:49:32 pm

Jim: Assumed guilty until proven innocent... okay, I can deal with this. Why would I make a mistake like that when Dark was going to be lynched anyway? Adding that last vote was me trying to prevent a last second tie if someone was planning it, however unlikely. I'm not stupid enough to make such an obvious bus if I were a dopp, and voting makeinu wasn't getting me anywhere, and my arguement against him wasn't holding anything with me. In the morning, I'll be taking a longer look at the previous posts and see if I can find any clues.

So your argument against you bussing TheDarkStar is not a flat out denial (the proper response) but that if you were a dopp bussing him like that would be too obvious, therefore you can't be a dopp because you know better. Do you know how terribly unconvincing arguments in that vein are?

I dunno, man. I was just seeing how you would react beforehand, but I'm starting to think there might be something to this.

Also, who said it was an obvious bus? I didn't. I guess it was something you were worrying about beforehand.

Quote from: RangerCado on December 11, 2013, 11:49:32 pm

Also, have things normalized enough in your life for you to be able to play fully now?

Mostly. I've got one more day of purgatory finals before I'm freeeeeeeeeeeeeee.

Quote from: makeinu on December 12, 2013, 12:00:33 am

Quote from: Jim Groovester on December 11, 2013, 11:09:50 pm

I note that you bussed TheDarkStar after a long day of voting makeinu. What's your opinion of him now, and who are your suspects?

I'm not sure in what sense you're using the term "bussed" here, Jim.

Maybe you're not sure because this specific comment and question was directed to RangerCado, not you.

But thank you for your input. It is very much appreciated.

Quote from: Mephansteras on December 12, 2013, 12:06:53 am

Quote from: Jim Groovester on December 11, 2013, 11:09:50 pm

Mephansteras, does Sinlessmoon require a prod or replacement? Just so it's clear, I'm not asking you to prod him, I'm asking if he needs one.

Sinlessmoon contacted me during the night phase and said he didn't need to be replaced, so we're ok for now.

Then where the hell is he? It's like he's doing some serious hardcore mega ultra lurking and getting away with it!

Sinlessmoon, get your sorry ass in here or hang.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 2 - [1 REPLACE NEEDED]
Post by: makeinu on December 12, 2013, 12:31:23 am

Quote from: Jim Groovester on December 12, 2013, 12:26:56 am

Quote from: makeinu on December 12, 2013, 12:00:33 am

I'm not sure in what sense you're using the term "bussed" here, Jim.

Maybe you're not sure because this specific comment and question was directed to RangerCado, not you.

*facepalms* Commas...

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 2 - [1 REPLACE NEEDED]
Post by: RangerCado on December 12, 2013, 11:07:33 am

Jim: Now this is interesting to me. Fully denying it would be the "Proper" response? I don't believe there is a true "proper" response to that. I've said it before that I don't think about the wording that goes into my post and just speak my mind. And no, I wasn't thinking about it before hand, but it seems it would be an obvious bus for a Dopp member to do. If you want a denial of it then here, I didn't bus him because I am not a dopp! Now, back to doing something productive. And speaking of makeinu...

Caz is giving me a null tell, so I have no idea what we might be dealing with if its anything but a camo cloaked role. For now, lets just focus on finding the last couple dopps.

Sinless: You've posted 5 game posts total, your last post here was 4 DAYS ago, and you have done nothing in the way of hunting in those posts. You were warned about how long this game would take, and the time you should put into it. Where are you and why haven't you posted?

Makeinu:

Quote from: makeinu

Imp is long on verbiage, which is a personal scum-tell, though a weak one, and his list doesn't match mine

...So your suspicious of Imp, partially because his scum list is different than yours? Okay, that is just silly and you have to know it. People's lists are going to be different from yours due to their different personalities and what they believe are worse scum tells. Do you really think thats a good scum tell? Also, could you explain why you suspect Max again?

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 2 - [1 REPLACE NEEDED]
Post by: makeinu on December 12, 2013, 11:52:08 am

Quote from: RangerCado on December 12, 2013, 11:07:33 am

Quote from: makeinu

Imp is long on verbiage, which is a personal scum-tell, though a weak one, and his list doesn't match mine

...So your suspicious of Imp, partially because his scum list is different than yours? Okay, that is just silly and you have to know it. People's lists are going to be different from yours due to their different personalities and what they believe are worse scum tells. Do you really think thats a good scum tell? Also, could you explain why you suspect Max again?

Meh. That her scum list is different isn't really a tell, nor why I have suspicions. More, it's that her posts are very long-winded and I'm having trouble parsing out the meaning. That, to me, is a potential scum tell, because I've used that very tactic as scum to hide behind. It looks informed, and informative, but can end up like a political speech: by the time you add up all the pluses and minuses scattered throughout, nothing much has been said at all.

That said, it's Imp's style, and that's fine. It doesn't necessarily mean anything at all, and I wouldn't vote based solely on that, but it gives me something to look at, and as I dig further through those posts, maybe questions will come to mind.

As for Max, it's more a feeling, heavily tempered by the fact that he spent all "yesterday" hounding me. So, somewhat personal. That's why I'd like to see if a replacement plays the role differently, since he's basically announced he has no time or intention to play.

I'm curious, you've made mention twice of basically ignoring Caz's fate now, despite that I'm really the only one that's made any fuss about it, and then only in the name of understanding the game itself:

Quote from: RangerCado on December 11, 2013, 11:49:32 pm

We will likely know Caz's fate tomorrow, so lets focus on this day.

Quote from: RangerCado on December 12, 2013, 11:07:33 am

Caz is giving me a null tell, so I have no idea what we might be dealing with if its anything but a camo cloaked role. For now, lets just focus on finding the last couple dopps.

Why is that?

Sinlessmoon: I'm with Jim here. Join the game for real.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 2 - [1 REPLACE NEEDED]
Post by: RangerCado on December 12, 2013, 12:29:03 pm

Makeinu: Me being needlessly repetitive it seems. Mostly i'm saying we should ignore trying to figure out what happened, unless someone wants to claim to have followed them around or something similar. And fair point, that was my own mistake. And you really shouldn't take things personally in Mafia, or we might get what happened to Webadict where he was targeted by 9 seperate people at one point? I'm rambling, off to school work!

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 2 - [1 REPLACE NEEDED]
Post by: Jim Groovester on December 12, 2013, 12:31:08 pm

Quote from: RangerCado on December 12, 2013, 11:07:33 am

Jim: Now this is interesting to me. Fully denying it would be the "Proper" response? I don't believe there is a true "proper" response to that. I've said it before that I don't think about the wording that goes into my post and just speak my mind. And no, I wasn't thinking about it before hand, but it seems it would be an obvious bus for a Dopp member to do. If you want a denial of it then here, I didn't bus him because I am not a dopp! Now, back to doing something productive. And speaking of makeinu...

Caz is giving me a null tell, so I have no idea what we might be dealing with if its anything but a camo cloaked role. For now, lets just focus on finding the last couple dopps.

Maybe you should start taking care of what you say, because you wouldn't want people like me to suspect you for a careless turn of words on your part.

In any case, there was a proper response and you blew it. The proper response was any response that sufficiently convinced me that you were unrattled by my rather obvious insinuation. Sadly you did not give me that impression.

If you had said that you weren't a dopp to begin with without trying to explain it too much I probably would've looked elsewhere.

Quote from: RangerCado on December 12, 2013, 11:07:33 am

Sinless

. . .

Makeinu

Why are you bothering with FoSing people when you're not voting anybody? Why not just vote one of them? Hell, Sinlessmoon is literally the safest vote in the game right now, why FoS him at all?

Gosh you are so scum. Scared, cowardly scum. Can't cast a vote without adequate preparation and signaling beforehand.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 2 - [1 REPLACE NEEDED]
Post by: Mephansteras on December 12, 2013, 01:08:27 pm

The Whiteboard
Sinlessmoon: Jim Groovester, makeinu

---

Day ends ~5pm Pacific Monday

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 2 - [1 REPLACE NEEDED]
Post by: Imp on December 12, 2013, 02:42:38 pm

Quote from: Toaster on December 09, 2013, 08:25:27 am

I can't help but notice that your itemization on myself and Jim is very similar, yet you give him a pass and vote me.  Why the discrepancy?

Feel is a part of it.  Also this is very similar to Jim's behavior in S2 and he was Town that game.  I know that doesn't mean he's Town this game, but I have no real read of him other than 'Yeah, that's Jim, whatever that means'.  That doesn't give him a pass, but it is different from you.

What bugs me the most with Toaster, Jim, and now Persus13 is this tendency to not answer my questions, with or without direct refusal.  I think that's a very weird choice and that does disturb me.  All ribbing aside, don't forget you three that it's more than a snub of me (if that's the motivation any of you have for doing so, as Jim and Toaster have both alluded to) - it's also a failure to answer questions.  If my questions are so out of line call me on them and make it clear why they are inappropriate questions - that's Scumhunting, if my questions are bad ones - but to evade, deflect, belittle, or just ignore them is Scummy, not Scumhunting.

Quote from: Jim Groovester on December 09, 2013, 05:02:02 pm

Quote from: Imp on December 09, 2013, 04:47:00 am

I see avoidance of answering.  Why aren't you answering these questions?

I did answer. The robot is you. Apparently there's no room for jokes because mafia is srs bsns.

Quote from: Imp on December 09, 2013, 04:47:00 am

Because it doesn't make sense to me except as active lurking and deflection.

I don't believe you. There's no way you're getting this worked up over a fucking joke.

I'm not worked up over joking - I make jokes too, but I'm getting there and past there about my questions not being answered.

Quote from: Jim Groovester on December 09, 2013, 05:02:02 pm

Quote from: Imp on December 09, 2013, 04:47:00 am

• TOASTER MADE A JOKE AND I HATE IT

Why is Toaster's joking a worse offense compared to the other people who rate highly on your scum list?

Noted, Jim, who is happy to not answer most of my questions, also has no problem with Toaster not answering my questions and thinks not answering them isn't Scummy at all.

Quote from: Persus13 on December 09, 2013, 07:44:04 am

Quote from: Imp on December 09, 2013, 07:30:40 am

Why did you not notice extend?

It doesn't matter. I was concerned about activity. I noticed the extend.

And I'm trying to do some homework and I'm getting distracted.

Quote from: Persus13 on December 09, 2013, 06:58:11 pm

Quote from: Imp on December 09, 2013, 04:47:00 am

Persus

Quote from: Persus13 on December 06, 2013, 05:13:18 pm

Imp, Toaster seemed just to be making a flavor text reference. For the record, he wasn't exactly that active in the last Supernatural either, (although he did turn out to be converted scum). And for that matter, you don't have a lot of posts either. You're 4th in the overall post count.

You're saying that you're fine with Toaster's activity here because he wasn't very active in S6, where he was converted to Scum?

And you're saying that I don't have a lot of posts either, because (when you posted this comment) three people had more posts than me and seven had fewer - what's the significance of this to you, and how does that compare to talking about people in last place for number of posts?

My point was that Toaster wasn't very active either D1 or any of the other days. To me at least there wasn't a notable difference in his activity, but they were low throughout the game.

Normally you are number 1 in the post count. There this thing in Statistics known as z-scores that measure the deviation from a mean. At the moment I'd estimate that your z-score for this game is lower than Toaster's z-score.

Busy and other distractions also happens to me.  So do migraines and sickness, which delayed my joining the activity here D2.

Quote from: Persus13 on December 11, 2013, 11:42:28 pm

Imp (seems odd, scumhunting Toaster for A JOKE, which is much easier to make than a WOT analysis post, and friendliness)

Noted that Persus also has no problem with Toaster not answering my questions.  Persus, would it be appropriate for others to answer your questions with jokes?  That wouldn't seem like a dodge, deflection, or evasion to you?

Quote from: Persus13 on December 12, 2013, 12:06:22 am

Quote from: RangerCado on December 11, 2013, 11:49:32 pm

Persus: Can you expound on why your suspicious of Imp more? Yes where the scum hunting started was odd, but we all have to start somewhere so I'm not sure where your reasoning is coming from. If you would be so kind as to explain?

Imp seems off to me. She was attacking Toaster for something that seemed completely odd to me. I understand getting annoyed about inactivity, especially from a very experienced player, but it is much easier to crack a joke than to scumhunt. I tend to get annoyed at people attacking others for RL issues as well, and that also played part of it. Imp just feels different this game as compared to the others I've played with her. I had a similar feeling at the beginning of Supernatural, but this time I think it's different.

I noticed in the Scumchat for the sprint BM game, you considered night killing me and it didn't sound like a joke, though I was not a reasonable choice for target then:

Quote

Perses, reply #12:  Maybe Imp would be a better target.

Tiruin, reply #13:  Friendly reminder: Imp is on the replacement list, she's not an active player (yet?).

Perses, reply #14:  Oh, in that case I think SBC is our best bet.

Persus, would you say that you're a bit fixated on me?  Any reasons why?

---

Time to go to work and great time pressure these days for me.  I'll be able to post again tonight, possibly before if work's slow enough.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 2 - [1 REPLACE NEEDED]
Post by: Persus13 on December 12, 2013, 04:41:46 pm

Quote from: Imp on December 12, 2013, 02:42:38 pm

Noted that Persus also has no problem with Toaster not answering my questions.  Persus, would it be appropriate for others to answer your questions with jokes?  That wouldn't seem like a dodge, deflection, or evasion to you?'

I didn't remember that. I'll look back at that.

Quote from: Persus13 on December 12, 2013, 12:06:22 am

Quote from: RangerCado on December 11, 2013, 11:49:32 pm

Persus: Can you expound on why your suspicious of Imp more? Yes where the scum hunting started was odd, but we all have to start somewhere so I'm not sure where your reasoning is coming from. If you would be so kind as to explain?

Imp seems off to me. She was attacking Toaster for something that seemed completely odd to me. I understand getting annoyed about inactivity, especially from a very experienced player, but it is much easier to crack a joke than to scumhunt. I tend to get annoyed at people attacking others for RL issues as well, and that also played part of it. Imp just feels different this game as compared to the others I've played with her. I had a similar feeling at the beginning of Supernatural, but this time I think it's different.

I noticed in the Scumchat for the sprint BM game, you considered night killing me and it didn't sound like a joke, though I was not a reasonable choice for target then:

Quote

Perses, reply #12:  Maybe Imp would be a better target.

Tiruin, reply #13:  Friendly reminder: Imp is on the replacement list, she's not an active player (yet?).

Perses, reply #14:  Oh, in that case I think SBC is our best bet.

Persus, would you say that you're a bit fixated on me?  Any reasons why?

---

Time to go to work and great time pressure these days for me.  I'll be able to post again tonight, possibly before if work's slow enough.
[/quote]
That incidence in the scum chat was me being dumb and deciding to kill off an experienced player N1 to be nice, and that was N0, when I wasn't looking at a player list and no one had posted. You should know by now that making dumb mistakes is fairly common for me.

And I'd disagree on the fixated part. I just have played a lot of games with you. I've also played a lot of games with Tiruin as well. So I have a better idea of your playstyles and so you two are easier to talk about.

Why are you concerned about me attacking you?

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - Trouble at Sea
Post by: Persus13 on December 12, 2013, 04:57:47 pm

Imp: Are these the questions you say Toaster hasn't answered?

Quote from: Imp on December 04, 2013, 06:33:36 am

Toaster:  You've asked two players questions about their questioning of all other players, and each of your questions has included a negatively-directed statement about those players lack focus because of questioning everyone.

Quote from: Toaster on December 03, 2013, 10:06:40 am

Ranger:
Since you're questioning everyone, how will you cope with the loss of focus your questions have?

Imp:
Why did you cast a wide net and question everyone instead of focusing your attention?

Please explain why you percieve questioning everyone as preventing focused attention.

Quote from: Toaster on December 03, 2013, 10:06:40 am

For the record, I am 100% for claiming Kook status first post, and extend this to regular miller in any game I play.

Why?  Furthermore, one possible reaction I imagine is voting you from suspicion that you are not a miller, but a Scum claiming to be a miller.  How would you handle that so that your claim and the reactions it provoked on D1 served Town?

Toaster:

Can you answer these questions?

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 2 - [1 REPLACE NEEDED]
Post by: Jim Groovester on December 12, 2013, 09:22:50 pm

Quote from: Imp on December 12, 2013, 02:42:38 pm

I HATE JOKES

I AM THE FUNQUISITION

Your question was: what's the purpose of these jokes?

I dunno, maybe they were jokes.

Wasn't this obvious?

I fail to see what questions I haven't answered.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 2 - [1 REPLACE NEEDED]
Post by: Persus13 on December 12, 2013, 09:49:09 pm

Edit of earlier post

Quote from: Persus13 on December 12, 2013, 04:41:46 pm

Quote from: Imp on December 12, 2013, 02:42:38 pm

Noted that Persus also has no problem with Toaster not answering my questions.  Persus, would it be appropriate for others to answer your questions with jokes?  That wouldn't seem like a dodge, deflection, or evasion to you?'

I didn't remember that. I'll look back at that.

Quote from: Imp on December 12, 2013, 02:42:38 pm

Quote from: Persus13 on December 12, 2013, 12:06:22 am

Quote from: RangerCado on December 11, 2013, 11:49:32 pm

Persus: Can you expound on why your suspicious of Imp more? Yes where the scum hunting started was odd, but we all have to start somewhere so I'm not sure where your reasoning is coming from. If you would be so kind as to explain?

Imp seems off to me. She was attacking Toaster for something that seemed completely odd to me. I understand getting annoyed about inactivity, especially from a very experienced player, but it is much easier to crack a joke than to scumhunt. I tend to get annoyed at people attacking others for RL issues as well, and that also played part of it. Imp just feels different this game as compared to the others I've played with her. I had a similar feeling at the beginning of Supernatural, but this time I think it's different.

I noticed in the Scumchat for the sprint BM game, you considered night killing me and it didn't sound like a joke, though I was not a reasonable choice for target then:

Quote

Perses, reply #12:  Maybe Imp would be a better target.

Tiruin, reply #13:  Friendly reminder: Imp is on the replacement list, she's not an active player (yet?).

Perses, reply #14:  Oh, in that case I think SBC is our best bet.

Persus, would you say that you're a bit fixated on me?  Any reasons why?

---

Time to go to work and great time pressure these days for me.  I'll be able to post again tonight, possibly before if work's slow enough.

That incidence in the scum chat was me being dumb and deciding to kill off an experienced player N1 to be nice, and that was N0, when I wasn't looking at a player list and no one had posted. You should know by now that making dumb mistakes is fairly common for me.

And I'd disagree on the fixated part. I just have played a lot of games with you. I've also played a lot of games with Tiruin as well. So I have a better idea of your playstyles and so you two are easier to talk about.

Why are you concerned about me attacking you?

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 2 - [1 REPLACE NEEDED]
Post by: Toaster on December 12, 2013, 09:50:16 pm

Imp:  Please quote the questions I haven't answered- I get the feeling you never read my last post to you, at least not fully.


Persus:  I did answer those:

(RQing everyone)

Quote from: Toaster on December 04, 2013, 10:51:51 pm

I dislike the opener of asking everyone a question.  If you ask everyone, there's no shock of "Oh crap attention is on me" because it's on everyone.  You're not putting any pressure, and are not likely to get anything useful out of it.

(Kook claiming)

Quote from: Toaster on December 04, 2013, 10:51:51 pm

Short answer is I found scum (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=77045.msg1968729#msg1968729) the first time (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=77045.msg1968678#msg1968678) I tried this.

To elaborate, claiming it the very first post of your game- and making it your meta- does several things.  If it's a true claim, then it's right out there in the open for everyone to know.  It tells people that alignment inspecting you will return a scum result, so go inspect elsewhere.  The big reason is in opposition, though.  If you are one- or are scum- claiming Kook after someone claims a guilty inspection on you is very unlikely to convince people not to lynch you.  The goal is to turn it into a null tell; something that is acknowledged and then moved on from.  The first time I did it, one of the dopps made a huge issue out of it and tried to get me lynched over it.  I eventually figured this out, but the dopp team had a vig and we were pretty much screwed anyway.

Heck, Imp even acknowledged my answering of these.  Why are you trying to be Imp's little helper monkey?


Jim:  If you're so convinced Ranger is scum, why are you voting nonplaying Sinlessmoon over him?


Going to look over things in the AM.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 2 - [1 REPLACE NEEDED]
Post by: Persus13 on December 12, 2013, 09:52:50 pm

Quote from: Toaster on December 12, 2013, 09:50:16 pm

Persus:  I did answer those:

(RQing everyone)

Quote from: Toaster on December 04, 2013, 10:51:51 pm

I dislike the opener of asking everyone a question.  If you ask everyone, there's no shock of "Oh crap attention is on me" because it's on everyone.  You're not putting any pressure, and are not likely to get anything useful out of it.

(Kook claiming)

Quote from: Toaster on December 04, 2013, 10:51:51 pm

Short answer is I found scum (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=77045.msg1968729#msg1968729) the first time (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=77045.msg1968678#msg1968678) I tried this.

To elaborate, claiming it the very first post of your game- and making it your meta- does several things.  If it's a true claim, then it's right out there in the open for everyone to know.  It tells people that alignment inspecting you will return a scum result, so go inspect elsewhere.  The big reason is in opposition, though.  If you are one- or are scum- claiming Kook after someone claims a guilty inspection on you is very unlikely to convince people not to lynch you.  The goal is to turn it into a null tell; something that is acknowledged and then moved on from.  The first time I did it, one of the dopps made a huge issue out of it and tried to get me lynched over it.  I eventually figured this out, but the dopp team had a vig and we were pretty much screwed anyway.

Heck, Imp even acknowledged my answering of these.  Why are you trying to be Imp's little helper monkey?

Because I was wondering if I should vote her.


Imp: What questions hasn't Toaster answered?

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 2 - [1 REPLACE NEEDED]
Post by: Tiruin on December 13, 2013, 01:06:34 am

Apologies for extended absence yet again (yeah, coincidence happens that it hits me at this single point in time that it seems consecutive).

Am keeping a list of notes offline, will try to post later. I keep on collapsing to sleep due to schoolwork. u__u

But no way I'm going to ask for a replacement. I can do this.
Any questions I've missed?

Oh, and for that thing on why I voted Max D1--I noted a severe discrepancy through what seems to be an agreeable idea. While my action of asking Persus a question regarding what he saw..the follow-through on Max' defense didn't make much pertinent sense. Sure, it could be 'intervening', but I did note he didn't question Persus afterwards and instead took on kicking that notion until it was bled dry. Meaning: He didn't continue the idea of questioning but instead inflated the idea of 'blocking reasoning'.

I mean, its not like there's a linear way to scumhunt like ask questions or whatever.
So that's why I voted him. I haven't read up until D2 yet however, and will browse back.

Quote from: Persus13 on December 12, 2013, 09:52:50 pm

Quote from: Toaster on December 12, 2013, 09:50:16 pm

Persus:  I did answer those:

(RQing everyone)

Quote from: Toaster on December 04, 2013, 10:51:51 pm

-Goodnote-

(Kook claiming)

Quote from: Toaster on December 04, 2013, 10:51:51 pm

-importantpost-

Heck, Imp even acknowledged my answering of these.  Why are you trying to be Imp's little helper monkey?

Because I was wondering if I should vote her.[...]

...You're wondering in public?

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 2 - [1 REPLACE NEEDED]
Post by: Jim Groovester on December 13, 2013, 01:18:01 am

Quote from: Toaster on December 12, 2013, 09:50:16 pm

Jim:  If you're so convinced Ranger is scum, why are you voting nonplaying Sinlessmoon over him?

I'm trying to crack RangerCado. He's been nice enough to provide me with stuff to use against him.

Even with all my tough talk I'm not currently sure which way he's cracking. I'm leaning scum at the moment.

Sinlessmoon PMed Mephansteras to say he didn't need a replacement despite having done literally nothing all game long. My bet is he's got night game, and with how hard he's lurking I'm assuming the worst. I have no intention of letting him continue doing whatever it is he's doing without making himself available to get a read on.

In short, I want him dead. We'll see how I feel if he ever shows up. My guess is he won't, and I doubt I'll change my mind if he does.

How come you're not giving him crap since he's been in flagrant violation of Toaster's #1 Scumtell for a pretty damn long time now (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=133676.msg4815003#msg4815003)?

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 2 - [1 REPLACE NEEDED]
Post by: Mephansteras on December 13, 2013, 02:58:41 am

The Whiteboard
Imp: Persus13
Sinlessmoon: Jim Groovester, makeinu

---

Day ends ~5pm Pacific Monday


Superblackcat is replacing in for Max White

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 2
Post by: Persus13 on December 13, 2013, 07:54:00 am

Quote from: Tiruin on December 13, 2013, 01:06:34 am

Quote from: Persus13 on December 12, 2013, 09:52:50 pm

Quote from: Toaster on December 12, 2013, 09:50:16 pm

Persus:  I did answer those:

(RQing everyone)

Quote from: Toaster on December 04, 2013, 10:51:51 pm

-Goodnote-

(Kook claiming)

Quote from: Toaster on December 04, 2013, 10:51:51 pm

-importantpost-

Heck, Imp even acknowledged my answering of these.  Why are you trying to be Imp's little helper monkey?

Because I was wondering if I should vote her.[...]

...You're wondering in public?

Well, more accurately where I placed my vote depended on how my question was answered.

Hello SBC, have you been reading the game?

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 2
Post by: RangerCado on December 13, 2013, 10:41:51 am

First, sorry I didn't post more yesterday, forgot about Mafia :(

Suspect me all you want Jim. I'm playing with no regard to how I look and more towards trying to find scum... Until now it seems since I have to get through another part of your post because that right there sir,

Quote from: Jim

Hell, Sinlessmoon is literally the safest vote in the game right now, why FoS him at all?

is a trap. Why would I add a vote to someone who I can't get any information out of currently with a vote from you already on him to try and get him out of hiding? And now makeinu? An easier way to get his attention would be to PM as well as vote him since we can in this game. So good luck oh misguided one as you once again insult me, as you do every game we've been in, to your hearts content. And some questions for you:

-Who do you suspect of being scum? Besides me and mister lurky since you appear to be trying to make me crack.

-Do you really believe I will crack so easily?

Hello SBC! A couple questions:

-How well do you believe Max did previously?

-Do you think he has left you in a good position, or a bad one?

Makeinu: Are you going to scum hunt more, or just leave your vote on Sinless on the chance that he returns?

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 2
Post by: makeinu on December 13, 2013, 10:44:56 am

Quote from: RangerCado on December 13, 2013, 10:41:51 am

Makeinu: Are you going to scum hunt more, or just leave your vote on Sinless on the chance that he returns?

My vote stays where it is until I have a better target for it.

Quote

would be to PM as well as vote him since we can in this game.

Now you get to see how I scum hunt.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 2
Post by: Superblackcat on December 13, 2013, 11:31:37 am

Hello, No I have not read the game, Yes tonight will be fun, reading ~24 pages. I'll post again in about 10 hours after school. (And answer questions).

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 2
Post by: Toaster on December 13, 2013, 12:03:35 pm

Reading back over TheDarkStar, I don't think he gave away any of his buddies.  That said, for the lazy baseless vote (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=133676.msg4812082#msg4812082) he threw down here, Makeinu now has a strong non-dopp read to me.


Persus:

Quote from: Persus13 on December 12, 2013, 09:52:50 pm

Imp: What questions hasn't Toaster answered?

Why do you need my permission?  You could have found that yourself.  Why are you getting me mixed up in this?


Jim:  Fair enough on Ranger.

Quote from: Jim Groovester on December 13, 2013, 01:18:01 am

How come you're not giving him crap since he's been in flagrant violation of Toaster's #1 Scumtell for a pretty damn long time now (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=133676.msg4815003#msg4815003)?

One, I don't really put that much faith in that any more- I think I got lucky on its first application.  Two, there's a line between active lurking and simple non-participation, and he's crossed into the latter.  If he comes back, answers a couple questions, then leaves without adding any real content, then we'll see.  As of now, there's really no merit to one more person going after someone who is simply absent.


Getting this out for a start.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 2
Post by: Jim Groovester on December 13, 2013, 04:07:22 pm

Quote

RangerCado on Today at 10:41:51 am

    Suspect me all you want Jim. I'm playing with no regard to how I look and more towards trying to find scum... Until now it seems since I have to get through another part of your post because that right there sir,
   

Quote

Quote from: Jim

        Hell, Sinlessmoon is literally the safest vote in the game right now, why FoS him at all?

    is a trap. Why would I add a vote to someone who I can't get any information out of currently with a vote from you already on him to try and get him out of hiding? And now makeinu? An easier way to get his attention would be to PM as well as vote him since we can in this game. So good luck oh misguided one as you once again insult me, as you do every game we've been in, to your hearts content. And some questions for you:

But, RangerCado, how can I trap you into voting somebody you suspect?

You also dodged all of my questions. In particular, why didn't you vote any of the people you said you suspected.

Quote

Quote from: RangerCado on Today at 10:41:51 am

    -Who do you suspect of being scum? Besides me and mister lurky since you appear to be trying to make me crack.

My suspect list is the same as when I answered this question from Persus13 a few days ago.

Quote

Quote from: RangerCado on Today at 10:41:51 am

    -Do you really believe I will crack so easily?

Yeah.





Mephansteras, what's the prod/replacement status on our friendly neighborhood lurker Sinlessmoon?


Damn it...sorry about that. I need to be really careful with this new Modify button. I was trying to quote you - Mephansteras

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 2
Post by: Mephansteras on December 13, 2013, 04:20:04 pm

Quote from: Jim Groovester on December 13, 2013, 04:07:22 pm

Mephansteras, what's the prod/replacement status on our friendly neighborhood lurker Sinlessmoon?

He has been messaged, so hopefully he'll show up and post today.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 2
Post by: Jim Groovester on December 13, 2013, 04:32:44 pm

Is there a point at which you'll forcibly replace somebody for inactivity, and has Sinlessmoon reached it yet?

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 2
Post by: Mephansteras on December 13, 2013, 04:36:00 pm

Quote from: Jim Groovester on December 13, 2013, 04:32:44 pm

Is there a point at which you'll forcibly replace somebody for inactivity, and has Sinlessmoon reached it yet?

Yes, there is a point where I'll forcibly replace someone. No, he's not there quite yet. But if we reach Monday and he hasn't posted yet I'll have to replace him.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 2
Post by: Persus13 on December 13, 2013, 04:40:32 pm

Quote from: Toaster on December 13, 2013, 12:03:35 pm

Persus:

Quote from: Persus13 on December 12, 2013, 09:52:50 pm

Imp: What questions hasn't Toaster answered?

Why do you need my permission?  You could have found that yourself.  Why are you getting me mixed up in this?

I was trying to find questions of Imp's that you hadn't answered and failed except for those I posted which I had a vague memory of you answering, but wasn't sure. How am I asking permission?

And I got you mixed up in this because I thought Imp was scum-hunting you strangely.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 2
Post by: Superblackcat on December 13, 2013, 06:30:10 pm

-How well do you believe Max did previously?
I'm up to page 12, and I don't like his D1 so far. I'll get back to you once I get to page 24.

-Do you think he has left you in a good position, or a bad one?
I'll get back to you once I get to page 24.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 1 - Trouble at Sea
Post by: Superblackcat on December 13, 2013, 06:32:15 pm

Quote from: Imp on December 04, 2013, 07:44:51 pm

Quote from: Caz on December 04, 2013, 07:04:34 pm

How do you decide between a scummy player that is town and a scummy player that is real scum? Do they have different tells to you?

I am still working on that one, but I've had some early possible successes (one can also be right because of luck, and can misattribute 'a reason' for something going right when that 'reason' had absolutely no connection - that's how one becomes superstitious about something).

In my first game, BM42, I managed with a huge amount of work and interaction to figure out that Superblackcat, though super Scummy, was almost certainly Town (later proven that he was Town).  How I did so wasn't 'tells' per say, it wasn't 'oh, he said this, this, and that - thus he is Town not Scum'.

More what I did was pretend to be him.  I made the assumption that -everything- he said was true, then I pretended that I made every single one of his posts, and tried to figure out why I made them.  Why I reacted to what I reacted to, why I said what I said, what I meant when I said what I said, why I didn't react to what I didn't show a reaction to.

I made a 'model' of that player in my head, reconstructed from his actions in game, then I questioned 'it' and as Superblackcat continued to post, I compared it against his new posts.  Making it wasn't easy - it was possible to do because Superblackcat had posted rather frequently and had interacted with me extensively while I was paying a lot of attention to him.  That model let me see Cat as yes, super Scummy, but as Town-Scummy not Scum-Scummy - and suggested several differences in how he would act if he really were Scum and helped me believe that he probably could not behave as he was if he actually was Scum - that had to do with how he handled pressure and what he responded to and didn't react to.

But nothing so simple I could boil down into a list of 'tells', no.  I believe any such list would have to be made anew for each player, and would have to change as that player changed.

Imp, you scare me.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 2
Post by: Superblackcat on December 13, 2013, 07:21:32 pm

Quote from: Superblackcat on December 13, 2013, 06:30:10 pm

-How well do you believe Max did previously?
I'm up to page 12, and I don't like his D1 so far. I'll get back to you once I get to page 24.

-Do you think he has left you in a good position, or a bad one?
I'll get back to you once I get to page 24.

Alright page 24:

Q1:

I don't like how he did D1 at all. He had very interesting... FOSes, and continued to not support it well... Or forget about it, then promptly goes inactive. I guess that's why I am here though :P.

Q2

I think he left me in a neutral position. I don't think anyone here thinks too strongly about him in either way, so I guess it's bad, considering I would consider what he does as active lurking, and grabbing at meaningless strings.

Hopefully I'll prove to do a much better job ;P.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 2
Post by: Persus13 on December 13, 2013, 07:22:45 pm

SBC: So who's your scum list at the moment?

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 2
Post by: Superblackcat on December 13, 2013, 07:29:41 pm

I really don't know, I haven't interacted with you guys, and.... Reading isn't that helpful, Ask that in another page or 2 please.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 2
Post by: RangerCado on December 13, 2013, 08:41:39 pm

Quote from: Jim Groovester on December 13, 2013, 04:07:22 pm

Quote

RangerCado on Today at 10:41:51 am

    Suspect me all you want Jim. I'm playing with no regard to how I look and more towards trying to find scum... Until now it seems since I have to get through another part of your post because that right there sir,
   

Quote

Quote from: Jim

        Hell, Sinlessmoon is literally the safest vote in the game right now, why FoS him at all?

    is a trap. Why would I add a vote to someone who I can't get any information out of currently with a vote from you already on him to try and get him out of hiding? And now makeinu? An easier way to get his attention would be to PM as well as vote him since we can in this game. So good luck oh misguided one as you once again insult me, as you do every game we've been in, to your hearts content. And some questions for you:

But, RangerCado, how can I trap you into voting somebody you suspect?

You also dodged all of my questions. In particular, why didn't you vote any of the people you said you suspected.

Quote

Quote from: RangerCado on Today at 10:41:51 am

    -Who do you suspect of being scum? Besides me and mister lurky since you appear to be trying to make me crack.

My suspect list is the same as when I answered this question from Persus13 a few days ago.

Quote

Quote from: RangerCado on Today at 10:41:51 am

    -Do you really believe I will crack so easily?

Yeah.


Mephansteras, what's the prod/replacement status on our friendly neighborhood lurker Sinlessmoon?


Damn it...sorry about that. I need to be really careful with this new Modify button. I was trying to quote you - Mephansteras

Now I can pick on you about your wording. Why would you ever as Town pick the safest vote unless you thought they were scum? Is there a reason to? Because the votes on him from you and makeinu have done nothing. As well, your suspecting me and your not voting me either? You can't say its because Sinless is scummier because hes getting replaced soon and all hes done is lurk so you have nothing to go on. Why haven't I voted either of them and instead voted you? Because I honestly am trying to find my bearings on makeinu, and Sinless is a worthless vote target because theres nothing to go off on him. Therin lies the trap, my reasons for not voting, and why I'm voting you. So why aren't you voting me or someone else, are you going to hunt or pick on me more, and are you going to do something helpful for the town today?

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 2
Post by: Jim Groovester on December 13, 2013, 09:12:12 pm

Oh, look. Another dodged question.

Answer my fucking questions.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 2
Post by: RangerCado on December 13, 2013, 09:27:11 pm

I ANSWERED them! Do you read my posts? What question didn't I answer? Because i'm looking right now, and I can't find any!

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 2
Post by: Superblackcat on December 13, 2013, 10:38:30 pm

Alright, this game is 3 faction?

With most likely one kind of alien, Dopps, and towns?

Aliens have special win statuses, Dopps and Town has to kill everyone not dopp/town?

and what is it most likely to be?

11 players, how many dopps how many towns?

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 2
Post by: makeinu on December 13, 2013, 10:40:30 pm

Quote from: Superblackcat on December 13, 2013, 10:38:30 pm

11 players, how many dopps how many towns?

You read the thread and missed that it's 3 doppelgangers, and one's already dead?

I call shenanigans...

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 2
Post by: Superblackcat on December 13, 2013, 10:42:53 pm

I see that one is dead, I do not see where it says there are three...

Could you like me please? I've been known to be really bad at reading OPs. (If you read my first BM game here, you would find something incredibly funny, well, not really actually).

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - [SET-UP IN PROGRESS]
Post by: makeinu on December 13, 2013, 10:49:05 pm

Quote from: Mephansteras on December 02, 2013, 11:48:34 pm

  When you discovered three doppelganger pods down in the lowest holds of the ship...well, it’s worse than you thought. You’re in a disabled ship, no way to contact the outside world, and alien monstrosities on board.

Favor delivered. I can see how you'd miss the post starting the game. </sarcasm>

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 2
Post by: Superblackcat on December 13, 2013, 10:50:48 pm

Ahah! I did read that! or... I read "When you discovered ... doppelganger.... Alien..." Three sections?

Also, where is Caz? It's been 4 days since he/she posted.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 2
Post by: Persus13 on December 13, 2013, 11:10:01 pm

Quote from: Superblackcat on December 13, 2013, 10:50:48 pm

Ahah! I did read that! or... I read "When you discovered ... doppelganger.... Alien..." Three sections?

Also, where is Caz? It's been 4 days since he/she posted.

Caz went mysteriously missing in the D2 opening post. Early D2 was mostly figuring out what happened to him.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 2 - [1 REPLACE NEEDED]
Post by: makeinu on December 13, 2013, 11:20:25 pm

Quote from: Jim Groovester on December 12, 2013, 12:31:08 pm

Quote from: RangerCado on December 12, 2013, 11:07:33 am

Jim: Now this is interesting to me. Fully denying it would be the "Proper" response? I don't believe there is a true "proper" response to that. I've said it before that I don't think about the wording that goes into my post and just speak my mind. And no, I wasn't thinking about it before hand, but it seems it would be an obvious bus for a Dopp member to do. If you want a denial of it then here, I didn't bus him because I am not a dopp! Now, back to doing something productive. And speaking of makeinu...

Maybe you should start taking care of what you say, because you wouldn't want people like me to suspect you for a careless turn of words on your part.

In any case, there was a proper response and you blew it. The proper response was any response that sufficiently convinced me that you were unrattled by my rather obvious insinuation. Sadly you did not give me that impression.

If you had said that you weren't a dopp to begin with without trying to explain it too much I probably would've looked elsewhere.

Jim: why does RangerCado's answer bother you so much? Doesn't a flat-out "Pffff, I'm not a dopp, whatever" answer to that question seem equally suspicious? I'm more suspicious that there's more to this, because I can't see any way that responding to that loaded was going to come out favorably.

Or is it more this behaviour:

Quote

Quote from: RangerCado on December 12, 2013, 11:07:33 am

Sinless

. . .

Makeinu

Why are you bothering with FoSing people when you're not voting anybody? Why not just vote one of them? Hell, Sinlessmoon is literally the safest vote in the game right now, why FoS him at all?

RangerCado: Jim does have a point here. Sinlessmoon isn't actively playing at all, yet he's still active enough to not be on the replace list. That's straight lurking, and lurking is about the most anti-Town activity I can name, so even if he is Town, he'd better speak the fuck up, and actually play the game (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=133676.msg4815003#msg4815003).

---

Superblackcat:

Quote from: Superblackcat on December 13, 2013, 10:50:48 pm

Also, where is Caz? It's been 4 days since he/she posted.

Caz was abducted. Again, I could see how you'd miss the, what, two whole pages discussing that. </sarcasm>

Listen, maybe it's just me, but Max didn't leave you a good position to sub into. Acting the uninformed noob isn't going to play well.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 2
Post by: RangerCado on December 13, 2013, 11:31:31 pm

Makeinu: He hasn't posted anything meaningful, hasn't posted since day 1, and was on yesterday without making a post here, but instead in other games:

Quote from: Sinlessmoon on December 12, 2013, 11:03:01 pm

-snip-

I'm for just replacing him now and being done with it honestly. And  despite not being on the replacement list yet, a full week of inactivity on Mafia is not being 'active.'

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 2
Post by: Superblackcat on December 13, 2013, 11:36:34 pm

Alright, I'm trying to figure this out. I am managing to forget what I read...
Ugghh.

No I am not an 'uninformed noob'.

Yes I really should pay more attention.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 2
Post by: Jim Groovester on December 13, 2013, 11:36:59 pm

Quote from: RangerCado on December 13, 2013, 08:41:39 pm

Now I can pick on you about your wording. Why would you ever as Town pick the safest vote unless you thought they were scum? Is there a reason to? Because the votes on him from you and makeinu have done nothing. As well, your suspecting me and your not voting me either? You can't say its because Sinless is scummier because hes getting replaced soon and all hes done is lurk so you have nothing to go on. Why haven't I voted either of them and instead voted you? Because I honestly am trying to find my bearings on makeinu, and Sinless is a worthless vote target because theres nothing to go off on him. Therin lies the trap, my reasons for not voting, and why I'm voting you. So why aren't you voting me or someone else, are you going to hunt or pick on me more, and are you going to do something helpful for the town today?

So,

You're not voting Sinlessmoon because your vote would do nothing, even though you said you suspected him.

You're voting me because my vote on Sinlessmoon is doing nothing, except if I suspect him, which I do, and also I should be voting you instead because Sinlessmoon is a lurker and therefore I have less reason to suspect him.

You're still trying to get a read on makeinu.

The trap is that Sinlessmoon is a safe vote that is inherently ineffective, except if you suspect Sinlessmoon. Except that you said you suspected him, so it wouldn't be a trap.

And the reason I was more worth a vote than either of the two players you initially FoSed is because...?

That I had to make this summary is stupid.

Is this all correct?

Quote from: makeinu on December 13, 2013, 11:20:25 pm

Jim: why does RangerCado's answer bother you so much? Doesn't a flat-out "Pffff, I'm not a dopp, whatever" answer to that question seem equally suspicious? I'm more suspicious that there's more to this, because I can't see any way that responding to that loaded was going to come out favorably.

Or is it more this behaviour:

The correct response is to be completely unfazed by my insinuations. Calmly replying along the lines that he was not a dopp would have accomplished this. Instead I got an explanation of why him bussing TheDarkStar is unlikely.

But that's not an important reason why I suspect him. It's more the empty statements of suspicion with his FoSes than some dumb answer to a loaded question.

Quote from: RangerCado on December 13, 2013, 11:31:31 pm

I'm for just replacing him now and being done with it honestly.

I would be up for this as well. But until he gets replaced he needs to die.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 2
Post by: Persus13 on December 13, 2013, 11:40:07 pm

I think Sinlessmoon  needs to either be replaced or lynched. Until either of these happens or he becomes very active, scum will have an easy target, and town will be plagued by questions about whether he's scum and lurking his way to victory. While I'd rather lynch scum suspects, we'll gain more information from sinlessmoon's death or replacement.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 2
Post by: Superblackcat on December 13, 2013, 11:43:44 pm

I really agree with replacing Sinless.
Persus:
Will we actually get any information for lynching Sinless?
Jim:
Scum list thus far, and reasons why. Also, who do you think killing would give the most information.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 2
Post by: makeinu on December 13, 2013, 11:49:34 pm

Quote from: RangerCado on December 13, 2013, 11:31:31 pm

Makeinu: He hasn't posted anything meaningful, hasn't posted since day 1, and was on yesterday without making a post here, but instead in other games:

Quote from: Sinlessmoon on December 12, 2013, 11:03:01 pm

-snip-

I'm for just replacing him now and being done with it honestly. And  despite not being on the replacement list yet, a full week of inactivity on Mafia is not being 'active.'

I don't care that he's off posting actively in other areas of the forum. And he's still 'active' enough that he's not due for replacement yet, according to the game mod:

Quote from: Mephansteras on December 13, 2013, 04:36:00 pm

Quote from: Jim Groovester on December 13, 2013, 04:32:44 pm

Is there a point at which you'll forcibly replace somebody for inactivity, and has Sinlessmoon reached it yet?

Yes, there is a point where I'll forcibly replace someone. No, he's not there quite yet. But if we reach Monday and he hasn't posted yet I'll have to replace him.

So, that's enough for me to be convinced that, barring a better target, he needs to go. Because he's 'active' enough to stay in despite not posting since day one, not posting anything constructive even then, and yet?

Only way I can read that is that he's got a night role, and barring a forthcoming useful report from him, I have to assume that's a scum role.

---

Quote from: Superblackcat on December 13, 2013, 11:36:34 pm

No I am not an 'uninformed noob'.

I didn't say you are an "uninformed noob", I said you were acting one. If it's not an act, then get up to speed. If it is an act, then get up to speed. I still have suspicions of Max White, and those didn't ebb completely just because you stepped into his role.

We'll get a role flip lynching Sinlessmoon, and an end to the "what the fuck is he" uncertainty.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 2
Post by: Persus13 on December 14, 2013, 12:00:59 am

Quote from: Superblackcat on December 13, 2013, 11:43:44 pm

Persus:
Will we actually get any information for lynching Sinless?

His role flip, yeah. And it will stop me looking over my shoulder at him while scumhunting, and stop scum from attacking an easy target. If he's scum, great, if he's town, it's not as good cause we're one step closer to defeat, but there's less doubt about him being scum lurking his way to victory.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 2
Post by: Jim Groovester on December 14, 2013, 01:40:53 am

Quote from: Superblackcat on December 13, 2013, 11:43:44 pm

Jim:
Scum list thus far, and reasons why. Also, who do you think killing would give the most information.

No, go reread all my posts from Day 2.

Also, killing scum would give the most information.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 2
Post by: Superblackcat on December 14, 2013, 09:18:52 am

Obviously, but who, as of now, do you think killing would give you the most information. Or do you know who scum is?

Also, your list have not changed in the slightest?

Title: Paranormal 23
Post by: Mephansteras on December 14, 2013, 11:20:30 am

The Whiteboard
Jim Groovester: RangerCado
Sinlessmoon: Jim Groovester, makeinu, Persus13

---

Day ends ~5PM Pacific Monday

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 2
Post by: RangerCado on December 14, 2013, 02:36:26 pm

Okay, two things from me now. First, EXTEND. If you guys are gonna do this, i'm fighting it because your all being incredibly stupid.

Secondly, Jim, Persus13, makeinu. Of the three of you, only Jim is scumhunting, and hes still leaving his vote on Sinless. Makeinu is pressing BlackCat, sure, but all of you have yet to do any full scum hunting today! Your all focusing on offing the most inactive player right now who I believe should have already been put on the replacement list, and aren't doing anything else.

Makeinu, you said that I would now see how you scum hunt by quoting my post about PMing. Is this to say that you are hunting via PMs, or is that an excuse to throw people off the trail?

Quote from: Persus13 on December 13, 2013, 11:40:07 pm

I think Sinlessmoon  needs to either be replaced or lynched. Until either of these happens or he becomes very active, scum will have an easy target, and town will be plagued by questions about whether he's scum and lurking his way to victory. While I'd rather lynch scum suspects, we'll gain more information from sinlessmoon's death or replacement.

Why would scum lynch someone if they were inactive? It leaves us with dead weight for the whole day, so lynching him while not doing any other scumhunting is stupid.

And whoevers defence it was (I believe it was makeinu's) that said they didn't have another target, try LOOKING for one! Odds are one of you is a dopp, and I just have to hope someone else sees what i'm seeing, because this is ridiculous! And if it turns out that your all truly townies, then your being lazy townies are of no help to the town.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 2
Post by: Persus13 on December 14, 2013, 06:27:50 pm

Quote from: RangerCado on December 14, 2013, 02:36:26 pm

Okay, two things from me now. First, EXTEND. If you guys are gonna do this, i'm fighting it because you're all being incredibly stupid.

I made the case that Sinlessmoon is dead weight to town and should either be lynched or replaced. You have yet to prove me wrong and have actually agreed with me. How am I being stupid?

Quote from: RangerCado on December 14, 2013, 02:36:26 pm

All of you have yet to do any full scum hunting today! Your all focusing on offing the most inactive player right now who I believe should have already been put on the replacement list, and aren't doing anything else.

Look and tell me how many people have posted recently. There's you, me, makeinu, Jim, and SBC. I have a target I want to scumhunt, and I've mentioned people I think are scummy before. But they aren't posting either. If I ask someone questions and they don't respond, how can I scumhunt them? I don't have strong scummy feelings about anyone who is posting (although I just got some on you), and my main target, who I VOTED, has yet to respond. I have tried to scumhunt, but they haven't responded to me, and I'm getting annoyed by dead weight.

Quote from: RangerCado on December 14, 2013, 02:36:26 pm

Quote from: Persus13 on December 13, 2013, 11:40:07 pm

I think Sinlessmoon  needs to either be replaced or lynched. Until either of these happens or he becomes very active, scum will have an easy target, and town will be plagued by questions about whether he's scum and lurking his way to victory. While I'd rather lynch scum suspects, we'll gain more information from sinlessmoon's death or replacement.

Why would scum lynch someone if they were inactive? It leaves us with dead weight for the whole day, so lynching him while not doing any other scumhunting is stupid.

Attacking Sinlessmoon for no activity is an easy way for to scum to look like they're scumhunting. They may not try to lynch him, but he's an easy target. More importantly, while I'm scumhunting, there is a big question mark over this guy's head. Sinlessmoon has shown no indication of posting. He has made no posts since 6 days ago, and if he's scum, he's going to lurk his way to victory unless he gets lynched or replaced.

Quote from: RangerCado on December 14, 2013, 02:36:26 pm

Odds are one of you is a dopp, and I just have to hope someone else sees what i'm seeing, because this is ridiculous! And if it turns out that your all truly townies, then your being lazy townies are of no help to the town.

The probability of at least one of us being a dopp is 53%. So the odds don't quite say that. But my problem with that statement is that it contradicts your earlier statement that scum wouldn't try to lynch a lurker. But if what you say is true (and if one of my pet scum theories is true) that is what is happening.
And I'm not being a lazy townie, I'm being a townie annoyed by a lurker. If anyone is being a lazy townie, it's you for completely ignoring the lack of information we're getting about one player. A player who like all of us, starts out today with a 20% chance of being scum. By saying only that you want him replaced, of which there has been no indication of happening, and Sinlessmoon apparently doesn't seem to want to do, you seem to think he is 100% town. Why are you so against lynching a luker? Is it because he's your scumbuddy?

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 2
Post by: Tiruin on December 14, 2013, 09:46:59 pm

Quote from: RangerCado on December 14, 2013, 02:36:26 pm

Okay, two things from me now. First, EXTEND. If you guys are gonna do this, i'm fighting it because your all being incredibly stupid.

Extend too. Holidays :S

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 2
Post by: Toaster on December 14, 2013, 09:58:23 pm

I agree with Ranger.   Sinless clearly isn't playing at this point.

Extend.


Hey Persus.  Why is your vote record so stinky?

You started out voting Max for tunneling- kind of a silly accusation for so early in the game.  You talked about him but didn't really put out much pressure after that.  When Max called for a replacement, you voted Sinlessmoon (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=133676.msg4820315#msg4820315) for his lurking until you realized so many other people were doing that; then you moved back to Max and that was pretty much it for you D1.

D2 you start out listing some suspects:

Quote from: Persus13 on December 11, 2013, 11:42:28 pm

My suspects are Tiruin (Only voted Max yesterday), Imp (seems odd, scumhunting Toaster for A JOKE, which is much easier to make than a WOT analysis post, and friendliness), and you (scummy feeling, not sure why). Caz also seems suspicious to me but I have no clue where he is. How about you?

...except you don't actually vote any of them.  Additionally, I get the feeling you're trying to buddy me with your attack on Imp.

Quote from: Persus13 on December 13, 2013, 07:54:00 am

Quote from: Tiruin on December 13, 2013, 01:06:34 am

Quote from: Persus13 on December 12, 2013, 09:52:50 pm

Quote from: Toaster on December 12, 2013, 09:50:16 pm

Heck, Imp even acknowledged my answering of these.  Why are you trying to be Imp's little helper monkey?

Because I was wondering if I should vote her.[...]

...You're wondering in public?

Well, more accurately where I placed my vote depended on how my question was answered.

Let's put it this way- how else would you have voted here?

You then move your vote off Imp (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=133676.msg4835461#msg4835461) and onto a nonplaying lurker who already had votes- *before* Imp addresses any of your concerns.  It's almost like you don't care about them (because they're totally fake.)

Quote from: Persus13 on December 14, 2013, 12:00:59 am

Quote from: Superblackcat on December 13, 2013, 11:43:44 pm

Persus:
Will we actually get any information for lynching Sinless?

His role flip, yeah. And it will stop me looking over my shoulder at him while scumhunting, and stop scum from attacking an easy target.

Oh the irony!  I bet you laughed when you wrote this.

Quote from: Persus13 on December 14, 2013, 06:27:50 pm

Quote from: RangerCado on December 14, 2013, 02:36:26 pm

Quote from: Persus13 on December 13, 2013, 11:40:07 pm

I think Sinlessmoon  needs to either be replaced or lynched. Until either of these happens or he becomes very active, scum will have an easy target, and town will be plagued by questions about whether he's scum and lurking his way to victory. While I'd rather lynch scum suspects, we'll gain more information from sinlessmoon's death or replacement.

Why would scum lynch someone if they were inactive? It leaves us with dead weight for the whole day, so lynching him while not doing any other scumhunting is stupid.

Attacking Sinlessmoon for no activity is an easy way for to scum to look like they're scumhunting.

Now I'm the one laughing!

So tell me, dopp, what did happen with your kill last night?

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 2
Post by: RangerCado on December 14, 2013, 10:01:11 pm

Persus13: ...And thats why I should reread my posts. I meant that scum would never night kill an inactive player. Scum lynching them makes sense because hey, as Jim said, safest vote in the world. You three are taking the easy way out too me, and you don't really have an excuse. If no one is answering your questions, put some pressure behind it and vote THEM! We have 2 extends available, and you three have decided to go kill someone who we have no information about. And if he isn't doing anything, being inactive as he is, then how would he lurk to victory? By all means, if you have no suspects at the end of both extends kill him. But right now, we can hunt active people instead of taking the easy way out as all scum would. And lastly, I do not see him as 100% town. I see him as a needless kill that a replacement might help the town IF he is town. If he isn't, then we can still lynch them when their replacement drops tells. Are you honestly telling me that your going to just kill him when we have about 4-5 RL days to do other things before deciding fully on this?

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 2
Post by: Tiruin on December 14, 2013, 10:12:34 pm

Quickpost:
Persus: If I was a suspect deemed to be mentioned in public because of my vote yesterday, then what have you to say on quite anything else on me other than why I only voted once? What's your take on that?

Quote from: Persus13 on December 14, 2013, 06:27:50 pm

Quote from: RangerCado on December 14, 2013, 02:36:26 pm

All of you have yet to do any full scum hunting today! Your all focusing on offing the most inactive player right now who I believe should have already been put on the replacement list, and aren't doing anything else.

Look and tell me how many people have posted recently. There's you, me, makeinu, Jim, and SBC. I have a target I want to scumhunt, and I've mentioned people I think are scummy before. But they aren't posting either. If I ask someone questions and they don't respond, how can I scumhunt them? I don't have strong scummy feelings about anyone who is posting (although I just got some on you), and my main target, who I VOTED, has yet to respond. I have tried to scumhunt, but they haven't responded to me, and I'm getting annoyed by dead weight.[...]

...Really? You didn't ask me anything as far as I see.

Jim: Points on people missing questions, why don't you link them to said questions to preferably aid the process of communication?
At this point of time, given Sin's activity rating, what is your prediction of him and the current votes? As in, does he seem like a good 'bandwagon' to justify your vote on?
Ranger

Quote from: RangerCado on December 14, 2013, 10:01:11 pm

Persus13: ...And thats why I should reread my posts. I meant that scum would never night kill an inactive player.

..Yeah they would. Where are you getting this assumption? Scum do kill inactive players--that was my priority in several games as scum/third-party before--to further the game and to keep the 'fun' rolling.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 2
Post by: Toaster on December 14, 2013, 10:16:13 pm

Quote from: RangerCado on December 14, 2013, 10:01:11 pm

I meant that scum would never night kill an inactive player.

This is totally untrue.  In Super 6 scum killed the guy needing replacement, and that's just one game back.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 2
Post by: RangerCado on December 14, 2013, 10:17:02 pm

Tiruin & Toaster: Personal assumption really, it just doesn't seem like something to do unless you want WIFOM or chaos... which is what scum can thrive in a lot. I see your points there... Never mind that point then.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 2
Post by: makeinu on December 14, 2013, 10:19:58 pm

Quote from: RangerCado on December 14, 2013, 10:01:11 pm

Persus13: ...And thats why I should reread my posts. I meant that scum would never night kill an inactive player. Scum lynching them makes sense because hey, as Jim said, safest vote in the world. You three are taking the easy way out too me, and you don't really have an excuse.

I'd argue that there's the perfect excuse in the world, and I've already stated it (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=133676.msg4835499#msg4835499).

To reiterate:

Quote from: makeinu on December 13, 2013, 11:49:34 pm

he's still 'active' enough that he's not due for replacement yet, according to the game mod:

Quote from: Mephansteras on December 13, 2013, 04:36:00 pm

Quote from: Jim Groovester on December 13, 2013, 04:32:44 pm

Is there a point at which you'll forcibly replace somebody for inactivity, and has Sinlessmoon reached it yet?

Yes, there is a point where I'll forcibly replace someone. No, he's not there quite yet. But if we reach Monday and he hasn't posted yet I'll have to replace him.

So, that's enough for me to be convinced that, barring a better target, he needs to go. Because he's 'active' enough to stay in despite not posting since day one, not posting anything constructive even then, and yet?

Only way I can read that is that he's got a night role, and barring a forthcoming useful report from him, I have to assume that's a scum role.

He's been prodded, he's not offline away from the forums, he's IN FACT busily posting elsewhere in the forums but NOT HERE. That's the very definition of active lurking, and I have a HUGE problem with that.

So what makes Sinlessmoon NOT a good lynch target in your book, RangerCado? Imp? Tiruin?

EXTEND

Quote

Are you honestly telling me that your going to just kill him when we have about 4-5 RL days to do other things before deciding fully on this?

I'm honestly telling you that I see no reason yet to not vote for him.

---

[/quote]

Quote from: Superblackcat on December 14, 2013, 09:18:52 am

Obviously, but who, as of now, do you think killing would give you the most information. Or do you know who scum is?

Also, your list have not changed in the slightest?

Seriously. This is the best you have.

Superblackcat, who do YOU think killing would give the most information? Or do YOU know who the scum are? Because I strongly suspect that you just might, and you're doing nothing to assuage my suspicions.

---

PPE: Can't even tell you how many times I've seen a lurker night-killed by the scum team. I'd cite examples, but they're not on this forum, obviously.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 2
Post by: RangerCado on December 14, 2013, 10:30:35 pm

Makeinu: No, he's just plain lurking. Active lurking is appearing to be doing something IN thread to appear to be doing something. He is just plain lurking, as shown by the definition of it in every BM.

Quote

Lurking - Purposefully not posting, so that you have few or no posts that can be analyzed. Generally a good strategy for scum. However, has the danger of earning you prods, getting modkilled, or found out via Zathras' Lurkertracker. Lurking is different than simply being away or unavailable. A good way to tell if someone is lurking is to check their profile's last active time, and compare it to their last post.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 2
Post by: Persus13 on December 14, 2013, 10:42:00 pm

Extend Yay activity!

Quote from: Toaster on December 14, 2013, 09:58:23 pm

Hey Persus.  Why is your vote record so stinky?

Because my reads his game have been surprisingly poor.

Quote from: Toaster on December 14, 2013, 09:58:23 pm

You started out voting Max for tunneling- kind of a silly accusation for so early in the game.  You talked about him but didn't really put out much pressure after that.  When Max called for a replacement, you voted Sinlessmoon (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=133676.msg4820315#msg4820315) for his lurking until you realized so many other people were doing that; then you moved back to Max and that was pretty much it for you D1.

No, I voted him because he seemed to be doing the exact same thing he did D1 in Supernatural and he was scum, which was constantly attack one person (and I misused the word tunneling, should have used focus or something like that), then I kept my vote on him because he then attacked Tiruin for asking a question of clarification that I had no problem with being asked. I'd also like to point out that for a lot of D1 I was playing the BM Sprint and that was a higher priority to this game and I've also been busy with school. If you to see me when I'm playing as scum, I'd advise you or anyone in this game to read that. Also, I kept with my vote of Max because he was my top scumpick D1, and I had no reads on anyone else.

Quote from: Toaster on December 14, 2013, 09:58:23 pm

D2 you start out listing some suspects:

Quote from: Persus13 on December 11, 2013, 11:42:28 pm

My suspects are Tiruin (Only voted Max yesterday), Imp (seems odd, scumhunting Toaster for A JOKE, which is much easier to make than a WOT analysis post, and friendliness), and you (scummy feeling, not sure why). Caz also seems suspicious to me but I have no clue where he is. How about you?

...except you don't actually vote any of them.  Additionally, I get the feeling you're trying to buddy me with your attack on Imp.

I'd been getting poor reads, so I took my time to reread D1 before voting and scumhunting. I wasn't ready to start scumhunting people when I made that list, and only gave a list because Jim asked me.

Quote from: Persus13 on December 13, 2013, 07:54:00 am

Quote from: Tiruin on December 13, 2013, 01:06:34 am

Quote from: Persus13 on December 12, 2013, 09:52:50 pm

Quote from: Toaster on December 12, 2013, 09:50:16 pm

Heck, Imp even acknowledged my answering of these.  Why are you trying to be Imp's little helper monkey?

Because I was wondering if I should vote her.[...]

...You're wondering in public?

Well, more accurately where I placed my vote depended on how my question was answered.

Let's put it this way- how else would you have voted here?[/quote]
If Imp had shown me questions you hadn't answered I would have likely voted you. If you had acknowledged that you hadn't answered those questions and the answer seemed scummy I would have voted you. If you had acknowledged that you hadn't answered the questions and said you missed them, I would have focused on Tiruin or Jim instead.

Quote from: Toaster on December 14, 2013, 09:58:23 pm

You then move your vote off Imp (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=133676.msg4835461#msg4835461) and onto a nonplaying lurker who already had votes- *before* Imp addresses any of your concerns.  It's almost like you don't care about them (because they're totally fake.)

I got annoyed at Sinlessmoon and decided he need to active or die. Imp is going to respond regardless of whether or not I vote her, and she knows I think she's scummy, so why do I need to vote her to get my questions answered?

Quote from: Toaster on December 14, 2013, 09:58:23 pm

Quote from: Persus13 on December 14, 2013, 12:00:59 am

Quote from: Superblackcat on December 13, 2013, 11:43:44 pm

Persus:
Will we actually get any information for lynching Sinless?

His role flip, yeah. And it will stop me looking over my shoulder at him while scumhunting, and stop scum from attacking an easy target.

Oh the irony!  I bet you laughed when you wrote this.

Quote from: Persus13 on December 14, 2013, 06:27:50 pm

Quote from: RangerCado on December 14, 2013, 02:36:26 pm

Quote from: Persus13 on December 13, 2013, 11:40:07 pm

I think Sinlessmoon  needs to either be replaced or lynched. Until either of these happens or he becomes very active, scum will have an easy target, and town will be plagued by questions about whether he's scum and lurking his way to victory. While I'd rather lynch scum suspects, we'll gain more information from sinlessmoon's death or replacement.

Why would scum lynch someone if they were inactive? It leaves us with dead weight for the whole day, so lynching him while not doing any other scumhunting is stupid.

Attacking Sinlessmoon for no activity is an easy way for to scum to look like they're scumhunting.

Now I'm the one laughing!

Yawn, your scare tactics don't really work on me. Why do you have a problem with me wanting a really bad lurker to hang or get replaced?

Quote from: Toaster on December 14, 2013, 09:58:23 pm

So tell me, dopp, what did happen with your kill last night?

Considering the fact that I'm not a dopp, I don't really know.

Quote from: RangerCado on December 14, 2013, 10:01:11 pm

Persus13: ...And thats why I should reread my posts. I meant that scum would never night kill an inactive player. Scum lynching them makes sense because hey, as Jim said, safest vote in the world.

Oh, okay, glad that got cleared up.

Quote from: RangerCado on December 14, 2013, 10:01:11 pm

You three are taking the easy way out too me, and you don't really have an excuse. If no one is answering your questions, put some pressure behind it and vote THEM!

Been there, done that.

Quote from: RangerCado on December 14, 2013, 10:01:11 pm

We have 2 extends available, and you three have decided to go kill someone who we have no information about.

In case you haven't noticed, I'm in favor of either killing or replacing him, and have said so multiple times by now. If he gets replaced, I'll return to my other targets. But so far, that hasn't seemed likely to happen, so I'd rather cut the dead weight, so I don't have to worry about it being a dopp.

Quote from: RangerCado on December 14, 2013, 10:01:11 pm

And if he isn't doing anything, being inactive as he is, then how would he lurk to victory? By all means, if you have no suspects at the end of both extends kill him. But right now, we can hunt active people instead of taking the easy way out as all scum would.

How Sinlessmoon would lurk to victory.
SInlessmoon is scum with two partners. SInless doesn't post at all. We lynch the scummiest people in the game, but Sinless is lurking and so gets ignored. Eventually, Lylo hits, Sinless is still lurking, but there's no info on him so they lynch the next scummiest player, who turns up town. Scum wins!

Quote from: RangerCado on December 14, 2013, 10:01:11 pm

And lastly, I do not see him as 100% town. I see him as a needless kill that a replacement might help the town IF he is town. If he isn't, then we can still lynch them when their replacement drops tells.

I support this, but until he does get replaced, I'm still voting him.

Quote from: RangerCado on December 14, 2013, 10:01:11 pm

Are you honestly telling me that your going to just kill him when we have about 4-5 RL days to do other things before deciding fully on this?

We have 2-4 days, but you're right, I should pursue other avenues at the moment.

PPE: 5 replies posted?

Quote from: Tiruin on December 14, 2013, 10:12:34 pm

Persus: If I was a suspect deemed to be mentioned in public because of my vote yesterday, then what have you to say on quite anything else on me other than why I only voted once? What's your take on that?

Because I came up with that list while looking through the lurker tracker after someone asked me the question. Right now you're actually lowest of the three I mentioned on my list.

Quote from: Tiruin on December 14, 2013, 10:12:34 pm

Quote from: Persus13 on December 14, 2013, 06:27:50 pm

Quote from: RangerCado on December 14, 2013, 02:36:26 pm

All of you have yet to do any full scum hunting today! Your all focusing on offing the most inactive player right now who I believe should have already been put on the replacement list, and aren't doing anything else.

Look and tell me how many people have posted recently. There's you, me, makeinu, Jim, and SBC. I have a target I want to scumhunt, and I've mentioned people I think are scummy before. But they aren't posting either. If I ask someone questions and they don't respond, how can I scumhunt them? I don't have strong scummy feelings about anyone who is posting (although I just got some on you), and my main target, who I VOTED, has yet to respond. I have tried to scumhunt, but they haven't responded to me, and I'm getting annoyed by dead weight.[...]

...Really? You didn't ask me anything as far as I see.

I find it hard to ask good questions to people. So often I just see what they post and look for stuff I take issue with or wish to comment or question on.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 2
Post by: Persus13 on December 14, 2013, 10:46:15 pm

Quote from: Persus13 on December 14, 2013, 10:42:00 pm

If you want to see me when I played as scum, I'd advise you or anyone in this game to read the BM Sprint.

Fixed this sentance from my earlier post.

Links:
BM Sprint (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=133901.0)
Scumchat (http://www.quicktopic.com/50/H/7drUFC65pAZ)

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 2
Post by: Superblackcat on December 14, 2013, 10:58:55 pm

Uhh Makeinu:

Thank you for being the first person to ask questions of me, other than first page I was here.

Quote

Superblackcat, who do YOU think killing would give the most information? Or do YOU know who the scum are? Because I strongly suspect that you just might, and you're doing nothing to assuage my suspicions.

Currently, I'd say Persus or Jim would give us the most information, with you coming in as a close 3rd. This is because there is a lot of going back and forth on top of what these players are saying. However, I am not sure if they are scum, so...

I'm going to go with your response earlier with the thread. I won't answer 'assertions', adding the second part of the question, is completely unnecessary.

Also, could you give me a list of reasons why you suspect that I might be scum?

_________________________

Thank god for activity!

Toaster: Do you believe Max was tunneling?

Persus: Who are your current 'Top 3 Scum' and why?

MakeInU: Uhh... Not supporting lurking or anything. But the definiton of active lurking would be posting stuff inside the thread while not actually saying anything.

What you gave would be more a definition of lurking, and even then I wouldn't consider it lurking, I'd consider it MIA: Need to be replaced (Sinless) . Lurking would be actively watching this thread whilst not posting anything.

RangerCado: If you were scum, who would you kill? (I really don't have any very relevant questions for you)

Tiruin: Why haven't you asked me any questions yet? Why has everyone been mostly inactive?  :'(

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 2
Post by: Persus13 on December 14, 2013, 11:14:29 pm

Quote from: Superblackcat on December 14, 2013, 10:58:55 pm

Persus: Who are your current 'Top 3 Scum' and why?

Jim: D1 he seemed pretty town, but today he's seemed more scummy. His attacks on RangerCado seem odd to me, and he's asked people to vote Sinlessmoon and told Toaster that one of Sinless's posts could be construed as being Toaster's #1 scumtell if you looked at it funny.
Caz: He voted two people in a single post, as if he was trying to not be caught by NQT's voting method of finding scum. He also disappeared last night, and there was no NK. My suspicion was he was doing the scumkill and got abducted on the way
Imp: Despite claiming that me and Toaster have not answered her questions, she hasn't provided any evidence to back this up.

Mephansteras: Can we have a vote on whether or not to forcibly replace Sinless?

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 2
Post by: RangerCado on December 14, 2013, 11:21:04 pm

Superblackcat: For strategy purposes and at this point in the game, I would kill someone who strongly suspected me. This would create WIFOM, cause suspicion, and If I survived the following day my plan would have worked. If I died anyway, oh well. For personal reasons, I would probably kill Jim since he kinda gets on my nerves every game. IE. He hunts via personal insults often. And as an added point, I would probably kill Tiruin day 1 barring certain circumstances as I personally always see him as Town.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 2
Post by: makeinu on December 14, 2013, 11:25:12 pm

Quote from: Superblackcat on December 14, 2013, 10:58:55 pm

Quote

Superblackcat, who do YOU think killing would give the most information? Or do YOU know who the scum are? Because I strongly suspect that you just might, and you're doing nothing to assuage my suspicions.

Currently, I'd say Persus or Jim would give us the most information, with you coming in as a close 3rd. This is because there is a lot of going back and forth on top of what these players are saying. However, I am not sure if they are scum, so...

By that, I can only assume that your list of scum suspects is the three of us, meaning two are scum and the third the alien that abducted Caz, whatever they turn out to be. Now, given that know I'm not either, and have good reasons for the other two not to be on my suspicion list (though, Persus13 does a mighty good job as scum, and I suspect Jim does as well), the fact that we're on your list doesn't give me pause to take my suspicions off you.

Quote

Also, could you give me a list of reasons why you suspect that I might be scum?

I don't think you are scum, I thought Max White was scum, because of the way he played his role. Now that you've replaced him, that residual suspicion works against you. So you get the sheer blind luck of replacing into a role that already had suspicion cast against it.

And your performance so far hasn't given me cause to reconsider, but since there are what I see as more valid targets out there, I'm willing to give you a pass for now, and give you the chance to redeem yourself. Hence, the FoS, and not a vote. That can change in either direction.

_________________________

Quote

MakeInU: Uhh... Not supporting lurking or anything. But the definiton of active lurking would be posting stuff inside the thread while not actually saying anything.

What you gave would be more a definition of lurking, and even then I wouldn't consider it lurking, I'd consider it MIA: Need to be replaced (Sinless) . Lurking would be actively watching this thread whilst not posting anything.

Here's the thing, again. Sinlessmoon has been prodded, and hasn't posted anything after saying:

Quote from: Sinlessmoon on December 06, 2013, 01:05:44 am

Extend. I should probably post more instead of lurking.  :P

and:

Quote from: Sinlessmoon on December 08, 2013, 05:40:26 pm

Ah, apologies. I've been out for a couple days.

Gotta catch up on the reading.

All of his posts (all four of them!) were on day one. So, yes, he's lurking. On that we all agree.

He's not been replaced yet, however, which leads me to believe that he's not entirely inactive, just not active in thread. That, to me, does not rule out night actions and/or scum chat.

So, maybe cultural differences again here, but since I am assuming the likelihood of activity that the Town can't see, I call it active lurking.


Regardless, semantics around what he's doing or not doing aside, what he's not doing is helping the Town. Which means, by proxy definition, he's helping the scum. Inactive Town is one step above scum, and barring a better target, needs to be eliminated. So if anyone's willing to step up and be that better target, then by all means, open your mouths (figuratively) and say so. Give me a reason not to vote for Sinlessmoon and I will.

---

Quote from: Persus13 on December 14, 2013, 11:14:29 pm

Jim: D1 he seemed pretty town, but today he's seemed more scummy. His attacks on RangerCado seem odd to me, and he's asked people to vote Sinlessmoon and told Toaster that one of Sinless's posts could be construed as being Toaster's #1 scumtell if you looked at it funny.
Caz: He voted two people in a single post, as if he was trying to not be caught by NQT's voting method of finding scum. He also disappeared last night, and there was no NK. My suspicion was he was doing the scumkill and got abducted on the way

I had something to say about this, and I've totally forgotten what it was...

Oh, right. Scum tell by Sinlessmoon. That would likely be his third post in the game, quoted above.

Re: Caz. I'll confess that had barely crossed my mind as a possibility. It would explain last night.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 2
Post by: Mephansteras on December 15, 2013, 01:59:03 pm

The Whiteboard
Jim Groovester: RangerCado
Persus13: Toaster
Sinlessmoon: Jim Groovester, makeinu, Persus13

---

Day has been Extended to ~5pm Pacific Tuesday.

I have already stated that Sinless will be forcibly replaced if he does not post by Monday.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 2
Post by: Superblackcat on December 15, 2013, 07:09:32 pm

Uhh, because of that ^ I suggest that we don't vote him?

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 2
Post by: Tiruin on December 15, 2013, 09:12:20 pm

SBC

Quote from: Superblackcat on December 15, 2013, 07:09:32 pm

Uhh, because of that ^ I suggest that we don't vote him?

Because of what? A votecount?
Oho. Interesting.
You suggest 'we' don't vote [Sinlessmoon//Persus//Jim -- given the vagueness of "him"] Sinlessmoon because of what exactly.
Do you really mind the lynch there, or are you too concerned that you aren't directly poking at those who are forwarding this lynch?

Quote from: Superblackcat on December 14, 2013, 10:58:55 pm

Tiruin: Why haven't you asked me any questions yet? Why has everyone been mostly inactive?  :'(

...I thought I did. I wondered why you didn't reply. I realized now that I didn't.
My query to you was a note on your idea on what Max did.
Forwarding it to you, one-who-doesn't-like-to-quote. This is the basic situation. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=133676.msg4812594#msg4812594) Follow the quote line to see my original statement on the matter, than at what Max said.
I was to know your reasoning O' replacement.

---

---

Caz On this. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=133676.msg4812335#msg4812335)
You seriously thought I was scummy because of anyone else's lack of conviction to think about the problem and instead worry on 'OH GODS WHAT IF HE CHANGES HIS ANSWER'.
Everything is in bloody plain sight. You add a hypothetical 'Why would a town player want to interfere with someone else's scumhunting?' as if to undermine me, or preferably skew the viewpoint towards suspicion, yes?
How in the world does me simple query interfere with someone's [total lack of] scumhunting? Max never questioned Persus at all, but instead chose to drop a line and attack me on it.
And then disappear forever.
The note of interfering with the scumhunting? Nebulous. You apply a certain tangent with lacking support. If such an accusation is presented, it seems quite extreme enough to follow up on, no?
Weak argument much, Caz? I'd like to see you explain how I 'interfered' given your sensational vote (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=133676.msg4810033#msg4810033).

---

---

So here are ALL of Sinlessmoon's posts:
[1 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=133676.msg4791724#msg4791724), 2 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=133676.msg4792251#msg4792251), 3 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=133676.msg4792593#msg4792593)] Being out of game.
4 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=133676.msg4806851#msg4806851) being a response to an RVS. Not followed up upon by the asker [Ranger]
5 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=133676.msg4806985#msg4806985) being all answers; no questions.
6 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=133676.msg4807011#msg4807011) being an answer to hypothetical scenarios.
7 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=133676.msg4815003#msg4815003) being a humor-ish remark along with the personal label of 'I'm lurking :P'
8 and last (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=133676.msg4821222#msg4821222) being a note on him being 'out' a few days and probably gonna post again-style.
Now what to draw from that:
> Playfulness. The denotation of the ':P' would note either a joking attitude or a carefree behavior. Given how he uses such and such labels on himself, I further doubt the sincerity of him being scum given his...attitude. That, or he's playing the worst damned scum game ever of 'hide and no seek' by frickin' idling.
> Answer to hypothetical scenario == distancing. Reasonable, and it inspires curiosity. Considering that pretty much all of his everything afterwards concerns itself with time-bound posts, either he's playing the dishonorable and undignified play of 'lurk and go scum! ahahaha they won't catch me', or he's sincerely under RL stuff and bad stuffs happened given his last post.
While I can't reach brevity much, I can sense that what he's doing is at best, sincere.

Y'know, given how he posed a question and didn't note on it also, in his last two posts.

Tl;dr: I see him as Town-ish, but darn useless, and cast suspicion on those voting him. If he's on the same side as TheDarkStar...then I literally don't know what to say.
Next: IT'S BEEN A DAMNED DAY. YOU'RE ALL VOTING THE PERSON WHO WOULD BE TERMED 'DEAD IN ABSENTIA' IF THIS GOES THROUGH ON...WHAT?!
QUITE MUCH NOTHING.
I see a blatant use of inactivity to further personal goals there.
Cheap play. Valid, but very well cheap.
Why I suspect those dudes? Well.
IT'S BEEN A WHOLE DARN DAY, AND ALL I SEE IS PEOPLE VOTING THE ABSENTEE. THERE ARE TONS OF OTHER PEOPLE OUT THERE AND NO NOTE ON THEM BEING SCUMMY?!
Emphasis on the last part. Let's check the D1/2 votecount. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=133676.msg4829797#msg4829797)

---

---

Jim:
This may insult people. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=133676.msg4822148#msg4822148) Me included. >_>
Anyway. Personal annoyance on my part aside:
Now for your vote. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=133676.msg4830252#msg4830252) You seriously are picking on that one dude instead of anyone else, huh.
He can be force-replaced given his posts. And from what I glean on yours, you don't consider them all in detail other than the general 'he's gone.' note.

makeinu: YOUR (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=133676.msg4830252#msg4830252) vote agrees with Jim.

Both of you men: Why are you voting Sinlessmoon. I see nothing else on why you're doing so, and why you do so over anyone else given how Day 1 went out, with the only redeeming note being "nobody else asked you guys why."
Let's bring me into this matter. Why aren't you guys mentioning me--the absentee right next to that one dude. Surely my lack of stuffs present a conspicuous note, no? :O
Your suspect list (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=133676.msg4834511#msg4834511), pertaining here, (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=133676.msg4830252#msg4830252) seems to qualify the label of lurking as a lethal tell without any regard to what else happened on D1. Is everyone that spotless that you aren't poking at it?

Persus
I wonder on your priorities. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=133676.msg4835461#msg4835461)
Please expound to me how one such as Sinlessmoon would be scum in that scenario given what he said? Given you being a core player last D1, I'd also like to know what you thought about my 'spat' with Max.

All of you: Restating so you won't miss it. What makes lurking a better priority than anything else?

RangerCado: Tell me. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=133676.msg4836711#msg4836711) What do you see in Jim's scumhunting that needs acknowledgement? Your vote is on him given this note. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=133676.msg4833903#msg4833903)

Extend this to Wednesday please. Either people are busy due to Holidays or everyone's not in the mood for posting.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 2
Post by: Persus13 on December 15, 2013, 09:16:22 pm

Extend

Since I'm busy and it looks like Sinlessmoon's getting replaced, I'd like to have longer.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 2
Post by: Tiruin on December 15, 2013, 09:17:47 pm

Quote from: Persus13 on December 15, 2013, 09:16:22 pm

Extend

Since I'm busy and it looks like Sinlessmoon's getting replaced, I'd like to have longer.

wat.
It's a 2 on you, 3 on Sin.
What's the last bit about?

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 2
Post by: Tiruin on December 15, 2013, 09:24:34 pm

EBWOP

Quote from: makeinu on December 14, 2013, 11:25:12 pm

All of his posts (all four of them!) were on day one. So, yes, he's lurking. On that we all agree.

He's not been replaced yet, however, which leads me to believe that he's not entirely inactive, just not active in thread. That, to me, does not rule out night actions and/or scum chat.

So, maybe cultural differences again here, but since I am assuming the likelihood of activity that the Town can't see, I call it active lurking.


Regardless, semantics around what he's doing or not doing aside, what he's not doing is helping the Town. Which means, by proxy definition, he's helping the scum. Inactive Town is one step above scum, and barring a better target, needs to be eliminated. So if anyone's willing to step up and be that better target, then by all means, open your mouths (figuratively) and say so. Give me a reason not to vote for Sinlessmoon and I will.

Didn't see this as the reason. >_>
Anyway, valid point. In his posts, (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?action=profile;area=showposts;sa=messages;u=34907) you see a huge difference between December3~6 posts. Inactive Town however, is a vague point. How do you know if he's town?
Seems that you see the lack of any better target than a lurker, perhaps?
Problem: He 'admits' to lurking. With the copious use of the ':P'.
A taunt if I ever saw one, but he seems to be more a person of brevity than not. His playful style (reminiscent of TolyK. OK. There. I said it. It annoys me to hell and beyond.) drops at his last post, which is backed up by empirical evidence.
He posted once more on December 12. He vanished soon after.
Either its his tactic of escaping forever and 'trololoolololol town won't lynch me', or just being stoopid.
I doubt he's scum given how he presents his everything. And the notion of malevolent lurking (...lazy. So lazy. is what I see more), while seemingly proven by his priorities, could also be better explained by his...
...
Lack of everything, really.
All his posts speak of brevity, with totally nothing in em.
Bad scum, if he's scum. Really poor bad scum. I doubt a 'newbie to the forum Mafia' would go on that sort of behavior as it speaks twice-well against the person playing.
Edit my query to you: What is your total reasoning on all his posts and his behavior?

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 2
Post by: Tiruin on December 15, 2013, 09:30:31 pm

Gah.

Quote from: Persus13 on December 14, 2013, 10:42:00 pm

Quote from: Tiruin on December 14, 2013, 10:12:34 pm

Quote from: Persus13 on December 14, 2013, 06:27:50 pm

Quote from: RangerCado on December 14, 2013, 02:36:26 pm

All of you have yet to do any full scum hunting today! Your all focusing on offing the most inactive player right now who I believe should have already been put on the replacement list, and aren't doing anything else.

Look and tell me how many people have posted recently. There's you, me, makeinu, Jim, and SBC. I have a target I want to scumhunt, and I've mentioned people I think are scummy before. But they aren't posting either. If I ask someone questions and they don't respond, how can I scumhunt them? I don't have strong scummy feelings about anyone who is posting (although I just got some on you), and my main target, who I VOTED, has yet to respond. I have tried to scumhunt, but they haven't responded to me, and I'm getting annoyed by dead weight.[...]

...Really? You didn't ask me anything as far as I see.

I find it hard to ask good questions to people. So often I just see what they post and look for stuff I take issue with or wish to comment or question on.

I believe you believe I'm not your suspect, right? Given how you qualified those people and then this note, I'm pretty curious about your prioritizing. Bolded for emphasis--wasn't I dead weight earlier? I mean, you did suspect me as far as I remember--that one note on 'Tiruin voted Max D1. Suspicion.' seems to be a good note to start on.
You didn't drop me a line though. Not one question.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 2
Post by: Superblackcat on December 15, 2013, 10:40:19 pm

I meant don't vote sin since he's going to get replaced.

Tiruin:
Ahh, I remember that post line... I think Max was being overly paranoid... I don't know what else to say. He got mad at someone for adding on to his question. Probably didn't have enough sleep like most Bay12-ers.

Extend

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 2
Post by: Jim Groovester on December 15, 2013, 11:54:48 pm

Quote from: Persus13 on December 13, 2013, 11:40:07 pm

While I'd rather lynch scum suspects, we'll gain more information from sinlessmoon's death or replacement.

Quote from: Persus13 on December 14, 2013, 06:27:50 pm

I made the case that Sinlessmoon is dead weight to town and should either be lynched or replaced. You have yet to prove me wrong and have actually agreed with me. How am I being stupid?

These are rationalizations of your vote on Sinlessmoon. Those are potential advantages of having him gone, but those are not the correct justification for your vote.

You should only vote somebody if you think they are scum. I do not get the impression that you believe this is the case. If you want to lynch him because he's dead weight, then that's scummy of you.

Quote from: Persus13 on December 14, 2013, 11:14:29 pm

and he's asked people to vote Sinlessmoon

How about you tell me where I have done this, because I'm pretty sure I haven't.

Quote from: Persus13 on December 14, 2013, 11:14:29 pm

and told Toaster that one of Sinless's posts could be construed as being Toaster's #1 scumtell if you looked at it funny.

How is Sinlessmoon saying he should stop lurking, and then lurk even harder, not an example of a failure to deliver promised content?

Quote from: Superblackcat on December 14, 2013, 09:18:52 am

Obviously, but who, as of now, do you think killing would give you the most information. Or do you know who scum is?

Also, your list have not changed in the slightest?

Killing Tiruin or Toaster would give me the most information, because I find them hard to read. I don't currently suspect them but they are good enough players that this does not mean they aren't scum.

No, my list hasn't really changed all that much.

Quote from: Superblackcat on December 14, 2013, 10:58:55 pm

What you gave would be more a definition of lurking, and even then I wouldn't consider it lurking, I'd consider it MIA: Need to be replaced (Sinless) . Lurking would be actively watching this thread whilst not posting anything.

You read through the thread and you saw the enormity of Sinlessmoon's contributions so far. What do you make of him refusing replacement during the night?

Quote from: makeinu on December 14, 2013, 11:25:12 pm

Regardless, semantics around what he's doing or not doing aside, what he's not doing is helping the Town. Which means, by proxy definition, he's helping the scum. Inactive Town is one step above scum, and barring a better target, needs to be eliminated. So if anyone's willing to step up and be that better target, then by all means, open your mouths (figuratively) and say so. Give me a reason not to vote for Sinlessmoon and I will.

Even shitty town should not be lynched.

Do you suspect Sinlessmoon?

Quote from: Tiruin on December 14, 2013, 10:12:34 pm

Jim: Points on people missing questions, why don't you link them to said questions to preferably aid the process of communication?

I was being dumb when I accused RangerCado of dodging my questions.

Quote from: Tiruin on December 14, 2013, 10:12:34 pm

At this point of time, given Sin's activity rating, what is your prediction of him and the current votes? As in, does he seem like a good 'bandwagon' to justify your vote on?

He's probably a non-player.

But a non-players who refused replacement during the night.

Everybody's going nah we shouldn't kill him we should just wait for him to be replaced and I agree, but until he gets replaced, I am dead set on lynching him. Who knows, he might refuse replacement again for some reason, in which case, he is as deserving of being lynched as I've been saying.

As to your question, he is a good bandwagon because he can't say anything in his defense and he's already ultra hardcore mega lurking, so it's important to examine the people voting him and their reasons. E.G., Persus13 seems to be implying he should be lynched because he's dead weight to the town, which is a really scummy thing to say. I, on the other hand, am stating that the only reason he would refuse replacement during the night and otherwise do fuckall in the rest of the game is because he has a night action of some sort, and it's super scummy to only play the night game for reasons which I should hope are apparent.

Quote from: Tiruin on December 15, 2013, 09:12:20 pm

Jim:
This may insult people. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=133676.msg4822148#msg4822148) Me included. >_>

But it's funny because I call TheDarkStar myopic, and then Toaster repeats one of his questions in a huge font, so it's like Toaster's trying to get TheDarkStar's attention as if he actually were myopic and and and and and get it?

Quote from: Tiruin on December 15, 2013, 09:12:20 pm

Anyway. Personal annoyance on my part aside:
Now for your vote. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=133676.msg4830252#msg4830252) You seriously are picking on that one dude instead of anyone else, huh.
He can be force-replaced given his posts. And from what I glean on yours, you don't consider them all in detail other than the general 'he's gone.' note.

How am I supposed to consider nothing? He has posted virtually no content.

Quote from: Tiruin on December 15, 2013, 09:12:20 pm

Both of you men: Why are you voting Sinlessmoon. I see nothing else on why you're doing so, and why you do so over anyone else given how Day 1 went out, with the only redeeming note being "nobody else asked you guys why."

If you don't see anything on why I'm voting him then you haven't looked through Day 2 hard enough.

He contacted Meph during the night and told Meph that he wouldn't need replacement. Don't you see the sinister potential here? Because I do, and I intend to vote him until he starts talking, he's dead, or he gets replaced.

Quote from: Tiruin on December 15, 2013, 09:12:20 pm

Let's bring me into this matter. Why aren't you guys mentioning me--the absentee right next to that one dude. Surely my lack of stuffs present a conspicuous note, no? :O

I noticed but you're not one to completely disappear from a game. You have also posted more than five lines, which makes you automatically leagues ahead of Sinlessmoon.

I also notice that Imp hasn't shown up recently either, but I also know she's not one to completely disappear from a game either.

Is there any other players' activity you'd like me to make a note about?

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 2
Post by: Superblackcat on December 16, 2013, 12:07:16 am

Quote

You read through the thread and you saw the enormity of Sinlessmoon's contributions so far. What do you make of him refusing replacement during the night?

I think that he thought he would be able to actually play this, then decide that it was too much work and just left us all hanging. If he doesn't post before monday 5pm GMT When he is replaced, I would think he is just a wierd person who didn't have any time. If he does, he is scum IMO.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 2
Post by: makeinu on December 16, 2013, 12:26:27 am

Quote from: Jim Groovester on December 15, 2013, 11:54:48 pm

Even shitty town should not be lynched.

Do you suspect Sinlessmoon?

Right now, yes. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=133676.msg4835499#msg4835499)

And I'm leaving my vote until he's replaced, presuming he is. That way, his replacement will have some pressure to actually post something.

More to follow this brief note.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 2
Post by: Superblackcat on December 16, 2013, 12:31:44 am

Assuming that he will be replaced instantly on monday 5pm...

I don't think that's possible?

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 2
Post by: Tiruin on December 16, 2013, 12:44:28 am

Quote from: Jim Groovester on December 15, 2013, 11:54:48 pm

Quote from: Tiruin on December 14, 2013, 10:12:34 pm

At this point of time, given Sin's activity rating, what is your prediction of him and the current votes? As in, does he seem like a good 'bandwagon' to justify your vote on?

He's probably a non-player.

But a non-players who refused replacement during the night.[....]

Quote from: Tiruin on December 15, 2013, 09:12:20 pm

Both of you men: Why are you voting Sinlessmoon. I see nothing else on why you're doing so, and why you do so over anyone else given how Day 1 went out, with the only redeeming note being "nobody else asked you guys why."

If you don't see anything on why I'm voting him then you haven't looked through Day 2 hard enough.

He contacted Meph during the night and told Meph that he wouldn't need replacement. Don't you see the sinister potential here? Because I do, and I intend to vote him until he starts talking, he's dead, or he gets replaced.
[...]
I also notice that Imp hasn't shown up recently either, but I also know she's not one to completely disappear from a game either.

Is there any other players' activity you'd like me to make a note about?

Ah. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=133676.msg4830225;topicseen#msg4830225)
... (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=133676.msg4834539;topicseen#msg4834539)
Well, that reasoning checks out to my notes.
@Orange: I..did. It lacked the details on Sin, but now I see the contacting of Meph.

Also note on Imp, last contact I made with her (BM-talk and all if she'd join), she has the flu. :(
^{And other things like hard workload and crazy holiday stuffs, to quote without quoting the PM..though it has no context in Mafia.}

Quote from: Superblackcat on December 16, 2013, 12:31:44 am

Assuming that he will be replaced instantly on monday 5pm...

I don't think that's possible?

Quote from: Mephansteras on November 26, 2013, 12:05:24 pm

Replacements

• ToonyMan

Well...Hi Toony!

I believe this'll be extended given the presence of Toony?
^{Yes I'm skipping ahead to when that dude replaces in. :>}

So, query ahead: Toony: I more than not believe that you read up. What's your opinion about the current votes and what everyone's saying?

---

Quote from: Superblackcat on December 15, 2013, 10:40:19 pm

I meant don't vote sin since he's going to get replaced.

Tiruin:
Ahh, I remember that post line... I think Max was being overly paranoid... I don't know what else to say. He got mad at someone for adding on to his question. Probably didn't have enough sleep like most Bay12-ers.

...Overly paranoid doesn't equal illogical in my eye. Nor did I 'add on' to his "question" (when there wasn't any question he did in the first place).
So you're totally attributing it to lack of sleep, especially given his replies to me? Given (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=133676.msg4808689#msg4808689) that (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=133676.msg4808944#msg4808944) amount of detail plus his version of a summary (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=133676.msg4809630#msg4809630)?

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 2
Post by: Superblackcat on December 16, 2013, 12:47:06 am

I replaced in because Toony was busy until after Christmas or something like that.

I'm not sure if he'll be able to replace.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 2
Post by: Superblackcat on December 16, 2013, 12:52:10 am

Tiruin:

Quote from: Tiruin on December 16, 2013, 12:44:28 am

Quote from: Superblackcat on December 15, 2013, 10:40:19 pm

I meant don't vote sin since he's going to get replaced.

Tiruin:
Ahh, I remember that post line... I think Max was being overly paranoid... I don't know what else to say. He got mad at someone for adding on to his question. Probably didn't have enough sleep like most Bay12-ers.

...Overly paranoid doesn't equal illogical in my eye. Nor did I 'add on' to his "question" (when there wasn't any question he did in the first place).
So you're totally attributing it to lack of sleep, especially given his replies to me? Given (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=133676.msg4808689#msg4808689) that (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=133676.msg4808944#msg4808944) amount of detail plus his version of a summary (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=133676.msg4809630#msg4809630)?

No, after going back and rereading, I think he was just trying to find someone and something to attack. I don't know why he picked you two, as there were many better targets, at that time to attack. His attack was based on something you did, which was to redirect Persus' question back at him. I'm guessing that maybe Max may have thought that he was tunneling, or he thought that you were trying to get all friendly with him, and try to look townie. Whatever he thought, I don't know.

According to him, he thought you were being weird, I guess he doesn't see a lot of people redirecting questions in mafia. This continued to you become confused as to why he thought you were scummy in redirecting the question. Which made him more suspicious of you. That's how it looks to me I guess.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 2
Post by: makeinu on December 16, 2013, 03:41:33 am

I vote for an Extend to Wednesday. I want to see Sinlessmoon either get in here and play or be replaced. Regardless, Jim has restated my own case for lynching him.


Me:

Quote from: makeinu on December 13, 2013, 11:49:34 pm

Quote from: RangerCado on December 13, 2013, 11:31:31 pm

Makeinu: He hasn't posted anything meaningful, hasn't posted since day 1, and was on yesterday without making a post here, but instead in other games:

Quote from: Sinlessmoon on December 12, 2013, 11:03:01 pm

-snip-

I'm for just replacing him now and being done with it honestly. And  despite not being on the replacement list yet, a full week of inactivity on Mafia is not being 'active.'

I don't care that he's off posting actively in other areas of the forum. And he's still 'active' enough that he's not due for replacement yet, according to the game mod:

Quote from: Mephansteras on December 13, 2013, 04:36:00 pm

Quote from: Jim Groovester on December 13, 2013, 04:32:44 pm

Is there a point at which you'll forcibly replace somebody for inactivity, and has Sinlessmoon reached it yet?

Yes, there is a point where I'll forcibly replace someone. No, he's not there quite yet. But if we reach Monday and he hasn't posted yet I'll have to replace him.

So, that's enough for me to be convinced that, barring a better target, he needs to go. Because he's 'active' enough to stay in despite not posting since day one, not posting anything constructive even then, and yet?

Only way I can read that is that he's got a night role, and barring a forthcoming useful report from him, I have to assume that's a scum role.

Jim:

Quote from: Jim Groovester on December 15, 2013, 11:54:48 pm

Quote from: Persus13 on December 14, 2013, 11:14:29 pm

and told Toaster that one of Sinless's posts could be construed as being Toaster's #1 scumtell if you looked at it funny.

How is Sinlessmoon saying he should stop lurking, and then lurk even harder, not an example of a failure to deliver promised content?

Quote from: Superblackcat on December 14, 2013, 10:58:55 pm

What you gave would be more a definition of lurking, and even then I wouldn't consider it lurking, I'd consider it MIA: Need to be replaced (Sinless) . Lurking would be actively watching this thread whilst not posting anything.

You read through the thread and you saw the enormity of Sinlessmoon's contributions so far. What do you make of him refusing replacement during the night?

Quote from: Tiruin on December 14, 2013, 10:12:34 pm

At this point of time, given Sin's activity rating, what is your prediction of him and the current votes? As in, does he seem like a good 'bandwagon' to justify your vote on?

He's probably a non-player.

But a non-players who refused replacement during the night.

Everybody's going nah we shouldn't kill him we should just wait for him to be replaced and I agree, but until he gets replaced, I am dead set on lynching him. Who knows, he might refuse replacement again for some reason, in which case, he is as deserving of being lynched as I've been saying.

As to your question, he is a good bandwagon because he can't say anything in his defense and he's already ultra hardcore mega lurking, so it's important to examine the people voting him and their reasons. E.G., Persus13 seems to be implying he should be lynched because he's dead weight to the town, which is a really scummy thing to say. I, on the other hand, am stating that the only reason he would refuse replacement during the night and otherwise do fuckall in the rest of the game is because he has a night action of some sort, and it's super scummy to only play the night game for reasons which I should hope are apparent. [EMPHASIS MINE]

Quote from: Tiruin on December 15, 2013, 09:12:20 pm

Now for your vote. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=133676.msg4830252#msg4830252) You seriously are picking on that one dude instead of anyone else, huh.
He can be force-replaced given his posts. And from what I glean on yours, you don't consider them all in detail other than the general 'he's gone.' note.

How am I supposed to consider nothing? He has posted virtually no content.

Quote from: Tiruin on December 15, 2013, 09:12:20 pm

Both of you men: Why are you voting Sinlessmoon. I see nothing else on why you're doing so, and why you do so over anyone else given how Day 1 went out, with the only redeeming note being "nobody else asked you guys why."

If you don't see anything on why I'm voting him then you haven't looked through Day 2 hard enough.

He contacted Meph during the night and told Meph that he wouldn't need replacement. Don't you see the sinister potential here? Because I do, and I intend to vote him until he starts talking, he's dead, or he gets replaced.

Also, I have to agree with this point as well:

Quote

Quote from: Tiruin on December 15, 2013, 09:12:20 pm

Let's bring me into this matter. Why aren't you guys mentioning me--the absentee right next to that one dude. Surely my lack of stuffs present a conspicuous note, no? :O

I noticed but you're not one to completely disappear from a game. You have also posted more than five lines, which makes you automatically leagues ahead of Sinlessmoon.

I also notice that Imp hasn't shown up recently either, but I also know she's not one to completely disappear from a game either.

Yes, there are others here that could be labeled as lurking, but no one has posted as little as Sinlessmoon has, and under blatant evasion as well. Hell, even TheDarkStar posted more often, and with more substance, although not by much, and we all know how THAT turned out, don't we. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=133676.msg4824191#msg4824191)

Sinlessmoon isn't my only candidate for scum, but he's sitting at the top of the list right now.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 2
Post by: makeinu on December 16, 2013, 04:07:09 am

And, for the record, this:

Quote from: makeinu on December 14, 2013, 10:19:58 pm

He's been prodded, he's not offline away from the forums, he's IN FACT busily posting elsewhere in the forums but NOT HERE. That's the very definition of active lurking, and I have a HUGE problem with that.

IS active lurking. He's actively avoiding posting anything in this thread, yet still has the wherewithal to request, at night, not to be replaced.

He may be playing the worst scum hand in the world, but I'm hard-fucking-pressed to see how it's anything but a scum hand.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 2
Post by: Superblackcat on December 16, 2013, 05:20:10 am

Uhh, Or he coulda forgotten about it... and just left the thread alone?

I don't know how it works, but It doesn't seem to be on purpose.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 2
Post by: Tiruin on December 16, 2013, 05:29:16 am

That's the assumption I'm following...

One does not just say 'O hai guiz post later I'm lurking :P' without due reason.

...I'm really not seeing him as scum at that point--or Dopp, at best.
^{That or if he flips scum I'm dropping my meter of moral notation. and player-bound dignity.}

Or may be an Infester-type Spore Spreader but that'd be a real darn longshot...wherein 'lurking=win'. That would explain his wish to do the night action without posting quite much at all afterwards. However, the idea that he posted twice on him coming back plus the change in 'mood' helps my idea above [Him not being Dopp, at best//scum, at worst].

Quote from: Superblackcat on December 16, 2013, 05:20:10 am

I don't know how it works, but It doesn't seem to be on purpose.

I like your capitalization.
So what do you think about it SBC? How is it not on purpose to you?

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 2
Post by: Superblackcat on December 16, 2013, 05:50:08 am

Quote

So what do you think about it SBC? How is it not on purpose to you?

In my opinion, if he was scum, then He would have replied to the thread by now, or asked for a replacement. In what I've seen. Scum is more eager to play. They won't do what Sin is doing, especially if he saw that he has 3 votes on him. This must mean, if he's scum, then he's not checking the thread, or even if he's not scum, he's not checking the thread.

Of course, the alternative is that he is Spore Spreader, and if that's true, we'll all get FOOLED!

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 2
Post by: Superblackcat on December 16, 2013, 05:51:27 am

Oh shoot, forgot one important thing.

Seeing as he had no activity from yesterday, If he is spore spreader, and is trying to get lynched... He should be dead by now, since he may have started the ability yesterday. Even if not so, He would be for sure dead by tomorrow morning.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 2
Post by: makeinu on December 16, 2013, 09:13:26 am

Quote from: Superblackcat on December 16, 2013, 05:50:08 am

Quote

So what do you think about it SBC? How is it not on purpose to you?

In my opinion, if he was scum, then He would have replied to the thread by now, or asked for a replacement. In what I've seen. Scum is more eager to play. They won't do what Sin is doing, especially if he saw that he has 3 votes on him. This must mean, if he's scum, then he's not checking the thread, or even if he's not scum, he's not checking the thread.

I'm afraid that I don't follow the logic to the assumption that it must mean he's not checking the thread, nor why that matters. I've seen a LOT of games where a scum player has simply turned their backs on the game, and even their scum buddies have been unable to get them in and posting. I've seen scum players do really stupid things before, and this doesn't even come close to touching the dumbest.

Quote

Of course, the alternative is that he is Spore Spreader, and if that's true, we'll all get FOOLED!

If that's the case, then he's not pursuing his wincon, and lynching him now is better than waiting:

Quote

Spore Spreader

    Victory: All players at game end Infected/The Spore Spreader must be lynched the day following the Seeding.

He has, at best, infected one player and will infect one other at random upon being lynched, and didn't use the Bloom aspect last night, we know, since there was no message. And that's a distinctly anti-Town role.

So much for making the case that we should stop picking on him. You've only reinforced the idea that he's engaged in only playing the night game, that he's a risk to the Town, and that he needs to go.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 2
Post by: makeinu on December 16, 2013, 09:24:26 am

Quote from: Superblackcat on December 16, 2013, 05:51:27 am

Oh shoot, forgot one important thing.

Seeing as he had no activity from yesterday, If he is spore spreader, and is trying to get lynched... He should be dead by now, since he may have started the ability yesterday. Even if not so, He would be for sure dead by tomorrow morning.

No. That's incorrect.

Quote

Bloom: This Spore Spreader has a special ability that allows it to Seed the area with Alien plants at night once during the game. All players will be made aware of the plants the following morning. That day, the players MUST perform a lynch. If the SS is lynched that day, it will send forth a cloud of chemicals that will activate the plants. The plants then release spores that convert all other players into Spore Spreaders, and winning the game for the SS. If the SS is not lynched, then it will die the following night and lose.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 2
Post by: Toaster on December 16, 2013, 11:12:42 am

Persus:

Quote from: Persus13 on December 14, 2013, 10:42:00 pm

Quote from: Toaster on December 14, 2013, 09:58:23 pm

You started out voting Max for tunneling- kind of a silly accusation for so early in the game.  You talked about him but didn't really put out much pressure after that.  When Max called for a replacement, you voted Sinlessmoon (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=133676.msg4820315#msg4820315) for his lurking until you realized so many other people were doing that; then you moved back to Max and that was pretty much it for you D1.

No, I voted him because he seemed to be doing the exact same thing he did D1 in Supernatural and he was scum, which was constantly attack one person (and I misused the word tunneling, should have used focus or something like that), then I kept my vote on him because he then attacked Tiruin for asking a question of clarification that I had no problem with being asked. I'd also like to point out that for a lot of D1 I was playing the BM Sprint and that was a higher priority to this game and I've also been busy with school. If you to see me when I'm playing as scum, I'd advise you or anyone in this game to read that. Also, I kept with my vote of Max because he was my top scumpick D1, and I had no reads on anyone else.

Sinless was lurking just as much D1 as he is now- why was Max a better vote then and Sinless a better vote now?  Note Max was replaced after all this.

Quote from: Persus13 on December 14, 2013, 10:42:00 pm

Quote from: Toaster on December 14, 2013, 09:58:23 pm

Quote from: Persus13 on December 13, 2013, 07:54:00 am

Quote from: Tiruin on December 13, 2013, 01:06:34 am

Quote from: Persus13 on December 12, 2013, 09:52:50 pm

Quote from: Toaster on December 12, 2013, 09:50:16 pm

Heck, Imp even acknowledged my answering of these.  Why are you trying to be Imp's little helper monkey?

Because I was wondering if I should vote her.[...]

...You're wondering in public?

Well, more accurately where I placed my vote depended on how my question was answered.

Let's put it this way- how else would you have voted here?

If Imp had shown me questions you hadn't answered I would have likely voted you. If you had acknowledged that you hadn't answered those questions and the answer seemed scummy I would have voted you. If you had acknowledged that you hadn't answered the questions and said you missed them, I would have focused on Tiruin or Jim instead.

So how do Tiruin and Jim stack up now?

Quote from: Persus13 on December 14, 2013, 10:42:00 pm

Quote from: Toaster on December 14, 2013, 09:58:23 pm

You then move your vote off Imp (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=133676.msg4835461#msg4835461) and onto a nonplaying lurker who already had votes- *before* Imp addresses any of your concerns.  It's almost like you don't care about them (because they're totally fake.)

I got annoyed at Sinlessmoon and decided he need to active or die. Imp is going to respond regardless of whether or not I vote her, and she knows I think she's scummy, so why do I need to vote her to get my questions answered?

It sure doesn't look like she's answering them now.

Quote from: Persus13 on December 14, 2013, 10:42:00 pm

Yawn, your scare tactics don't really work on me. Why do you have a problem with me wanting a really bad lurker to hang or get replaced?

I have no problem with you wanting to get him replaced; heck, so do I.  I do have a problem when you hop on an easy lynch in lieu of other content.


Superblackcat*:

Quote from: Superblackcat on December 14, 2013, 10:58:55 pm

Toaster: Do you believe Max was tunneling?

No.

Max had a reasonable spread of questions to others before the accusation.  I know Max to be a very talkative person, so if Makeinu was responding to him as fast as he could answer back, he would indeed talk to Makeinu a lot.  But there is one crucial thing that I think a few people missed (myself included)- Max never voted Makeinu.  To me it totally reads like Max was trying to figure out Makeinu's playstyle and deduce new scum from new player.  On further reflection Persus's Max vote looks worse now.

Spoiler: * (click to show/hide)

Do you have a preferred shortening of this?

Tiruin:

Quote from: Tiruin on December 15, 2013, 09:12:20 pm

Caz

Why are you directing questions at a player who cannot answer them by dint of being game-absent?

Quote from: Tiruin on December 15, 2013, 09:12:20 pm

Jim:
This may insult people. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=133676.msg4822148#msg4822148) Me included. >_>

My eyes suck and I am amused by this.


Makeinu:

Quote from: makeinu on December 16, 2013, 09:24:26 am

No. That's incorrect.

Technically, it's only possibly incorrect.  Unless, of course, you know there's a Bloom Spore Spreader around.  Do you?

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 2
Post by: makeinu on December 16, 2013, 11:47:07 am

Quote from: Toaster on December 16, 2013, 11:12:42 am

Quote from: makeinu on December 16, 2013, 09:24:26 am

Quote from: Superblackcat on December 16, 2013, 05:51:27 am

Oh shoot, forgot one important thing.

Seeing as he had no activity from yesterday, If he is spore spreader, and is trying to get lynched... He should be dead by now, since he may have started the ability yesterday. Even if not so, He would be for sure dead by tomorrow morning.

No. That's incorrect.

Quote

Bloom: This Spore Spreader has a special ability that allows it to Seed the area with Alien plants at night once during the game. All players will be made aware of the plants the following morning. That day, the players MUST perform a lynch. If the SS is lynched that day, it will send forth a cloud of chemicals that will activate the plants. The plants then release spores that convert all other players into Spore Spreaders, and winning the game for the SS. If the SS is not lynched, then it will die the following night and lose.

Technically, it's only possibly incorrect.  Unless, of course, you know there's a Bloom Spore Spreader around.  Do you?

No.

And no, it's not possibly anything, it's simply incorrect.

The Infester SS actively targets players at night, and gets a free infest when lynched. At most, if lynched today, it would have two players infected, one from N1 and one at lynch, and is very likely to lose it's wincon. This variant benefits from playing the long game, which Sinlessmoon is not doing. However, it is not endangered by any manifestation of it's power. Ergo, incorrect.

The Bloom SS is only guaranteed to be dead at the end of the day/night after a bloom is announced. This variant benefits from playing the short game as a Jester, BUT must actively declare as a night action that it is activating it's bloom power to force the lynch the next day. No bloom has been announced. Ergo, also incorrect.

So, if Sinlessmoon is, in fact, a Spore Spreader, and there's nothing necessarily to say he's not, then he's in no way dead unless lynched or night killed. So Superblackcat's blithe assertion that we should just let it be, man, because if he's a Spore Spreader then he's already dead, is flat out, demonstrably, incorrect.

Either way, scum or SS, he is, right now, the best lynch target I see. If replaced, I'm curious to see what his replacement has to say, and will happily give them the chance to dig their way out of the hole that they've been left in.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 2
Post by: ToonyMan on December 16, 2013, 12:04:25 pm

Quote from: Superblackcat on December 16, 2013, 12:47:06 am

I replaced in because Toony was busy until after Christmas or something like that.
I'm not sure if he'll be able to replace.

I'm free as a Beogh worshiper in the Orcish Mines.

(I can replace today if need be.)

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 2
Post by: Mephansteras on December 16, 2013, 12:43:26 pm

The Whiteboard
Jim Groovester: RangerCado
Persus13: Toaster
Sinlessmoon: Jim Groovester, makeinu, Persus13

---

Day ends ~5pm Pacific Tuesday

Quote from: ToonyMan on December 16, 2013, 12:04:25 pm

Quote from: Superblackcat on December 16, 2013, 12:47:06 am

I replaced in because Toony was busy until after Christmas or something like that.
I'm not sure if he'll be able to replace.

I'm free as a Beogh worshiper in the Orcish Mines.

(I can replace today if need be.)

Thanks, Toony. Since Sinlessmoon hasn't shown up I'll give you his spot.

I'll PM you with the Role information shortly.


ToonyMan has replaced Sinlessmoon

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 2
Post by: ToonyMan on December 16, 2013, 02:02:58 pm

Quote from: Tiruin on December 16, 2013, 12:44:28 am

Toony: I more than not believe that you read up. What's your opinion about the current votes and what everyone's saying?

I followed loosely for the first day, but I haven't paid attention to Day 2 as much since that was during my finals week.  I'll take a look-see at everybody.

But first before any big analysis (my forum box is acting up anyway) I'd like to get out of the way that Imp should be lynched today.

Why?  I'm a Psychic Warden and blocked him Night 1.  There was no dopp kill Night 1.  I wasn't initially going to role-claim, but with some pretty incriminating evidence in front of me I see no reason not to.  Care to explain, Imp?

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 2
Post by: Imp on December 16, 2013, 05:22:52 pm

Guys, I'm sorry.  I need to be replaced.  I have serious problems affecting both my employment and my residence right now and I absolutely cannot give this game the time and focus it needs.  Every time I try my mind skitters away.  I give up.

I will -try- to play until I'm replaced, but I cannot make any promises.  I am very sorry to hurt the game by my absences.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 2 - [1 REPLACEMENT NEEDED]
Post by: Superblackcat on December 16, 2013, 05:54:30 pm

Wait, just getting this straight, Sinless comes in at night, does his weird voodoo magic (Blocks someone) and then leaves and don't talk to us ever again? Uhhh... I'd like to know what is going on in that brain. Not that I'm saying it's incorrect.

Also, What do you mean 'I wasn't initially going to role-claim,'. You just got the role... so where does the initially come from?

MakeInU: I missed the part that we would know if he was blooming or not.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 2 - [1 REPLACEMENT NEEDED]
Post by: ToonyMan on December 16, 2013, 06:01:51 pm

I wasn't going to claim my role until I realized there wasn't a mafia kill last night.  Replacees usually get less pressure and there wasn't a reason to role-claim just because I am the lynch candidate right now.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 2 - [1 REPLACEMENT NEEDED]
Post by: Jim Groovester on December 16, 2013, 06:13:41 pm

Imp? Why Imp?

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 2 - [1 REPLACEMENT NEEDED]
Post by: zombie urist on December 16, 2013, 06:19:32 pm

I can replace in for Imp but I probably won't be too active until Friday since this is my finals week.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 2 - [1 REPLACEMENT NEEDED]
Post by: Toaster on December 16, 2013, 06:49:31 pm

Jim:

Quote from: Jim Groovester on December 16, 2013, 06:13:41 pm

Imp? Why Imp?

Did you seriously just ask someone why the person he replaced chose the night target that he did?

Also, no unvote?

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 2 - [1 REPLACEMENT NEEDED]
Post by: makeinu on December 16, 2013, 07:45:47 pm

Flabbergasted...

Quote from: Superblackcat on December 16, 2013, 05:54:30 pm

MakeInU: I missed the part that we would know if he was blooming or not.

Fair enough. The SS took me a bit to think through as well.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 2 - [1 REPLACEMENT NEEDED]
Post by: makeinu on December 16, 2013, 08:02:10 pm

Quote from: ToonyMan on December 16, 2013, 06:01:51 pm

I wasn't going to claim my role until I realized there wasn't a mafia kill last night.  Replacees usually get less pressure and there wasn't a reason to role-claim just because I am the lynch candidate right now.

Okay, so, given that replacees generally get less pressure because, obviously, they likely don't know the thought processes guiding the actions of the player they replaced, I'm still curious what your defense would have been without laying a role claim, especially one of such magnitude.

Also, EXTEND to Wednesday. I'd very much like to hear more, from ToonyMan and from Imp or his replacement. Or from anyone that can back any of this, if possible.

Provisionally, my vote is remaining.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 2 - [1 REPLACEMENT NEEDED]
Post by: makeinu on December 16, 2013, 08:04:16 pm

Quote from: makeinu on December 16, 2013, 08:02:10 pm

and from Imp or his replacement.

*facepalms*

So sorry, her replacement.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 2 - [1 REPLACEMENT NEEDED]
Post by: Jim Groovester on December 16, 2013, 08:08:16 pm

Quote from: Toaster on December 16, 2013, 06:49:31 pm

Did you seriously just ask someone why the person he replaced chose the night target that he did?

It's partly a question but it's also me openly wondering about Sinlessmoon's choice of target.

Quote from: Toaster on December 16, 2013, 06:49:31 pm

Also, no unvote?

The claim bothers me. I want to see more from ToonyMan before I make up my mind about that.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 2 - [1 REPLACEMENT NEEDED]
Post by: Tiruin on December 16, 2013, 08:44:47 pm

PFP

Quote from: zombie urist on December 16, 2013, 06:19:32 pm

I can replace in for Imp but I probably won't be too active until Friday since this is my finals week.

DO IT NAO.

Or we can extend..(because my finals are also until Friday but I'm totally prepared for it.)

---

Quote from: Toaster on December 16, 2013, 11:12:42 am

Quote from: Tiruin on December 15, 2013, 09:12:20 pm

Caz

Why are you directing questions at a player who cannot answer them by dint of being game-absent?

So he'll have something to talk about when he becomes game-present. It's Christmas--that doesn't mean he'll be absent forever (just like me.)

---

Quote from: makeinu on December 16, 2013, 08:02:10 pm

Provisionally, my vote is remaining.

Could you state why?
I could rationalize how Toony's point would either be a fact or not (a ploy to get another lynched) but I'd like to hear your idea on it first.

---

Quote from: ToonyMan on December 16, 2013, 02:02:58 pm

[...]Imp should be lynched today.

Why?  I'm a Psychic Warden and blocked him Night 1.  There was no dopp kill Night 1.  I wasn't initially going to role-claim, but with some pretty incriminating evidence in front of me I see no reason not to.  Care to explain, Imp?

What if Imp flipped as town given that notion?

I'll just ask Meph one note on that matter thank ye.

Spoiler: OOC @Toony (click to show/hide)

Quote from: ToonyMan on December 16, 2013, 12:04:25 pm

Quote from: Superblackcat on December 16, 2013, 12:47:06 am

I replaced in because Toony was busy until after Christmas or something like that.
I'm not sure if he'll be able to replace.

I'm free as a Beogh worshiper in the Orcish Mines.

(I can replace today if need be.)

Convert all the Orcs?
Ahh the good ol' Dungeon Crawl.
Aim for the Priests more for their unblockable smiting powers.
...Unless that changed as of late. I didn't bother to check ever since patch 7.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 2 - [1 REPLACEMENT NEEDED]
Post by: Persus13 on December 16, 2013, 09:09:24 pm

Unvote

Just got back from a busy day. I'll be on later do stuff. Hello Toony! So Imp got blocked last night. Any other details you can add (ex. flavor)?

Did the Wednesday extend go through?

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 2 - [1 REPLACEMENT NEEDED]
Post by: RangerCado on December 16, 2013, 09:10:44 pm

Okay, starting at the top of page 27 for this post so bear with me.

Persus:

Quote from: Persus

I got annoyed at Sinlessmoon and decided he need to active or die. Imp is going to respond regardless of whether or not I vote her, and she knows I think she's scummy, so why do I need to vote her to get my questions answered?

Voting someone adds pressure and can lead to slip ups in a response. Voting someone who will actually answer your questions is much smarter than voting someone who wasn't replaced until now. This is a silly answer and you know it.

Quote

In case you haven't noticed, I'm in favor of either killing or replacing him, and have said so multiple times by now. If he gets replaced, I'll return to my other targets. But so far, that hasn't seemed likely to happen, so I'd rather cut the dead weight, so I don't have to worry about it being a dopp.

So why not wait until theres no alternative? Why not use your time and vote to pressure and hunt more effectively? It doesn't matter if there was little activity at the time, you still pressure them and it will add to your hunting power.

Quote

How Sinlessmoon would lurk to victory.
SInlessmoon is scum with two partners. SInless doesn't post at all. We lynch the scummiest people in the game, but Sinless is lurking and so gets ignored. Eventually, Lylo hits, Sinless is still lurking, but there's no info on him so they lynch the next scummiest player, who turns up town. Scum wins!

Well, he only has 1 partner now if he was at all scum, now Toonyman (whos claim I trust since I don't see a reason why you wouldn't claim that given the risks and information.) And if someone was lurking that badly, we could do a player vote or something to forcibly kick him out. Besides, we were waiting on him getting replaced anyway!

Quote

I support this, but until he does get replaced, I'm still voting him.

Quote

We have 2-4 days, but you're right, I should pursue other avenues at the moment.

So why not move your vote to somewhere productive instead of contradicting your statements in the same post?

---

Tiruin: Mostly his lack of using his vote effectively, and his personal insults he uses for scumhunting which I always have problems with. And EXTEND for wednesday because we need it.

---

Jim:

Quote from: Jim Groovester on December 15, 2013, 11:54:48 pm

Quote from: Persus13 on December 13, 2013, 11:40:07 pm

While I'd rather lynch scum suspects, we'll gain more information from sinlessmoon's death or replacement.

Quote from: Persus13 on December 14, 2013, 06:27:50 pm

I made the case that Sinlessmoon is dead weight to town and should either be lynched or replaced. You have yet to prove me wrong and have actually agreed with me. How am I being stupid?

These are rationalizations of your vote on Sinlessmoon. Those are potential advantages of having him gone, but those are not the correct justification for your vote.

You should only vote somebody if you think they are scum. I do not get the impression that you believe this is the case. If you want to lynch him because he's dead weight, then that's scummy of you.

So if you weren't voting him for being dead weight, useless, and needing information via death due to deciding to be lazy with your hunting, what exactly were you voting him for? Because Persus seemed to describe exactly those reasons for makeinu, you, and him.

Quote

But it's funny because I call TheDarkStar myopic, and then Toaster repeats one of his questions in a huge font, so it's like Toaster's trying to get TheDarkStar's attention as if he actually were myopic and and and and and get it?

Insulting someone on a personal level is NOT funny Jim. It can be called a hate crime and I am TIRED of every game being you insulting people every other post. JUST STOP!

---

Toonyman: Although I see no reason to not believe your claim of blocking someone, whos to say there aren't other ability blocking roles currently in play? So if Imp were to flip town, what would you do then?

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 2 - [1 REPLACEMENT NEEDED]
Post by: makeinu on December 16, 2013, 09:18:25 pm

Quote from: Tiruin on December 16, 2013, 08:44:47 pm

Quote from: makeinu on December 16, 2013, 08:02:10 pm

Provisionally, my vote is remaining.

Could you state why?
I could rationalize how Toony's point would either be a fact or not (a ploy to get another lynched) but I'd like to hear your idea on it first.

I did, in that same post:

Quote from: makeinu on December 16, 2013, 08:02:10 pm

Quote from: ToonyMan on December 16, 2013, 06:01:51 pm

I wasn't going to claim my role until I realized there wasn't a mafia kill last night.  Replacees usually get less pressure and there wasn't a reason to role-claim just because I am the lynch candidate right now.

Okay, so, given that replacees generally get less pressure because, obviously, they likely don't know the thought processes guiding the actions of the player they replaced, I'm still curious what your defense would have been without laying a role claim, especially one of such magnitude.

Also, EXTEND to Wednesday. I'd very much like to hear more, from ToonyMan and from Imp or his replacement. Or from anyone that can back any of this, if possible.

---

Quote

Quote from: ToonyMan on December 16, 2013, 02:02:58 pm

[...]Imp should be lynched today.

Why?  I'm a Psychic Warden and blocked him Night 1.  There was no dopp kill Night 1.  I wasn't initially going to role-claim, but with some pretty incriminating evidence in front of me I see no reason not to.  Care to explain, Imp?

What if Imp flipped as town given that notion?

Then we'd know ToonyMan either lied or assumed wrongly, but I'd rather figure that out before we let this slide.

---

Quote from: RangerCado on December 16, 2013, 09:10:44 pm

Jim:

Quote from: Jim Groovester on December 15, 2013, 11:54:48 pm

Quote from: Persus13 on December 13, 2013, 11:40:07 pm

While I'd rather lynch scum suspects, we'll gain more information from sinlessmoon's death or replacement.

Quote from: Persus13 on December 14, 2013, 06:27:50 pm

I made the case that Sinlessmoon is dead weight to town and should either be lynched or replaced. You have yet to prove me wrong and have actually agreed with me. How am I being stupid?

These are rationalizations of your vote on Sinlessmoon. Those are potential advantages of having him gone, but those are not the correct justification for your vote.

You should only vote somebody if you think they are scum. I do not get the impression that you believe this is the case. If you want to lynch him because he's dead weight, then that's scummy of you.

So if you weren't voting him for being dead weight, useless, and needing information via death due to deciding to be lazy with your hunting, what exactly were you voting him for? Because Persus seemed to describe exactly those reasons for makeinu, you, and him.

Yeah, no. Persus described his reasons for voting. I described my own reasons for voting, repeatedly. Is there a reason you continue to ignore this?

You're not the only one, but you're the one I'm asking right now, because it's freakin' annoying!!

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 2 - [1 REPLACEMENT NEEDED]
Post by: ToonyMan on December 16, 2013, 09:42:16 pm

@Jim:

Quote from: Jim Groovester on December 16, 2013, 06:13:41 pm

Imp? Why Imp?

He probably seemed like a good target given his bad arguments towards Toaster and you.

---

@RangerCado:

Quote from: RangerCado on December 16, 2013, 09:10:44 pm

Toonyman: [/b]Although I see no reason to not believe your claim of blocking someone, whos to say there aren't other ability blocking roles currently in play? So if Imp were to flip town, what would you do then?

It's certainly possible Imp is town, but I find it more possible she's a dopp.  They seem to be replacing out though...

---

Anyway, as promised, general impressions on everybody and everyone:

Most scum

Imp - Day 1 attacks were odd, ended up voting DarkStar the dopp but can't say I can use that as town evidence after S6...currently think they're a dopp because of lack of kill but they're replacing out!
Tiruin - I'm just going to take a while guess and say they're the Caz kidnapper, it seems like a Tiruin-thing to be true
RangerCado - Defending Imp a lot.  "Can you expound on why your suspicious of Imp more?" (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=133676.msg4830192#msg4830192) at Persus. "...So your suspicious of Imp, partially because his scum list is different than yours?" (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=133676.msg4831032#msg4831032) at Makeinu.
Jim Groovester - It's hard to tell
Superblackcat - I'm not sure what they're doing but they replaced Max White recently so there's not as much to go off of though RVS-type questions on Day 2 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=133676.msg4837747#msg4837747) isn't so great
Persus13 - seems pretty sure Imp is scum as well, and I have to agree there, their starting post for D2 is really fishy though (don't do this (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=133676.msg4829930#msg4829930))
Caz - currently abducted, could be a dopp (which explains the lack of kill) but you can't vote somebody who isn't here
Toaster - I noticed that Toaster has been guiding Makeinu (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=133676.msg4829965#msg4829965) like a scum mentor, but he's right that DarkStar's actions don't make sense for it to be Makeinu scum and so Toaster doesn't look so bad either
makeinu - I don't see anything particularly suspicious and DarkSide's actions don't make that any harder to see

Least scum

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 2 - [1 REPLACEMENT NEEDED]
Post by: Persus13 on December 16, 2013, 09:57:31 pm

Quote from: Tiruin on December 15, 2013, 09:12:20 pm

Please expound to me how one such as Sinlessmoon would be scum in that scenario given what he said? Given you being a core player last D1, I'd also like to know what you thought about my 'spat' with Max.

I thought Max acted oddly, especially when he lashed out at you for what I saw as a  reasonable question. What scenario?

Quote from: Tiruin on December 15, 2013, 09:12:20 pm

All of you: Restating so you won't miss it. What makes lurking a better priority than anything else?

I just got fed up with Sinlessmoon's lurking. I got really annoyed that he wasn't playing but refused to be replaced and I voted him so there wouldn't be another "I should really stop lurking" post followed by several more days of silence, and because he was dead weight. Now I've wasted the weekend, I should pursue other avenues.

Quote from: Tiruin on December 15, 2013, 09:17:47 pm

Quote from: Persus13 on December 15, 2013, 09:16:22 pm

Extend

Since I'm busy and it looks like Sinlessmoon's getting replaced, I'd like to have longer.

wat.
It's a 2 on you, 3 on Sin.
What's the last bit about?

I'd like to have a longer day, because I wasted the weekend and because I'm busy and stressed out.

Quote from: Jim Groovester on December 15, 2013, 11:54:48 pm

Quote from: Persus13 on December 13, 2013, 11:40:07 pm

While I'd rather lynch scum suspects, we'll gain more information from sinlessmoon's death or replacement.

Quote from: Persus13 on December 14, 2013, 06:27:50 pm

I made the case that Sinlessmoon is dead weight to town and should either be lynched or replaced. You have yet to prove me wrong and have actually agreed with me. How am I being stupid?

These are rationalizations of your vote on Sinlessmoon. Those are potential advantages of having him gone, but those are not the correct justification for your vote.

You should only vote somebody if you think they are scum. I do not get the impression that you believe this is the case. If you want to lynch him because he's dead weight, then that's scummy of you.

So why do you think Sinless was scum?

Quote from: Jim Groovester on December 15, 2013, 11:54:48 pm

Quote from: Persus13 on December 14, 2013, 11:14:29 pm

and he's asked people to vote Sinlessmoon

How about you tell me where I have done this, because I'm pretty sure I haven't.

You asked Toaster why he wasn't voting Sinlessmoon because of his #1 scumtell, and you asked RangerCado to vote his suspicions, using Sinlessmoon as an example, but not makeinu who he also was suspicious of.

Quote from: Jim Groovester on December 15, 2013, 11:54:48 pm

Quote from: Persus13 on December 14, 2013, 11:14:29 pm

and told Toaster that one of Sinless's posts could be construed as being Toaster's #1 scumtell if you looked at it funny.

How is Sinlessmoon saying he should stop lurking, and then lurk even harder, not an example of a failure to deliver promised content?

Maybe RL stuff was stopping him from posting but he was under the false impression that he would be able to post a few days later? THat's my guess. I always thought Toaster's scumtell that applied to promising something, and then ignoring while continuing to post.

Quote from: Toaster on December 16, 2013, 11:12:42 am

Persus:

Quote from: Persus13 on December 14, 2013, 10:42:00 pm

Quote from: Toaster on December 14, 2013, 09:58:23 pm

You started out voting Max for tunneling- kind of a silly accusation for so early in the game.  You talked about him but didn't really put out much pressure after that.  When Max called for a replacement, you voted Sinlessmoon (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=133676.msg4820315#msg4820315) for his lurking until you realized so many other people were doing that; then you moved back to Max and that was pretty much it for you D1.

No, I voted him because he seemed to be doing the exact same thing he did D1 in Supernatural and he was scum, which was constantly attack one person (and I misused the word tunneling, should have used focus or something like that), then I kept my vote on him because he then attacked Tiruin for asking a question of clarification that I had no problem with being asked. I'd also like to point out that for a lot of D1 I was playing the BM Sprint and that was a higher priority to this game and I've also been busy with school. If you to see me when I'm playing as scum, I'd advise you or anyone in this game to read that. Also, I kept with my vote of Max because he was my top scumpick D1, and I had no reads on anyone else.

Sinless was lurking just as much D1 as he is now- why was Max a better vote then and Sinless a better vote now?  Note Max was replaced after all this.

Because Sinless was actually posting some and didn't want to be replaced.

Quote from: Toaster on December 16, 2013, 11:12:42 am

So how do Tiruin and Jim stack up now?

Tiruin, I don't know. Reading Tiruin is not my strong suit. Jim has seemed scummy to me, for reasons I've explained to SBC, and partly because of gut feeling, which isn't completely trustworthy.

Quote from: Toaster on December 16, 2013, 11:12:42 am

Quote from: Persus13 on December 14, 2013, 10:42:00 pm

Quote from: Toaster on December 14, 2013, 09:58:23 pm

You then move your vote off Imp (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=133676.msg4835461#msg4835461) and onto a nonplaying lurker who already had votes- *before* Imp addresses any of your concerns.  It's almost like you don't care about them (because they're totally fake.)

I got annoyed at Sinlessmoon and decided he need to active or die. Imp is going to respond regardless of whether or not I vote her, and she knows I think she's scummy, so why do I need to vote her to get my questions answered?

It sure doesn't look like she's answering them now.

Well given that she's going to be replaced now, I can see why. Imp not answering my questions was getting me concerned.

Quote from: RangerCado on December 16, 2013, 09:10:44 pm

So why not wait until theres no alternative? Why not use your time and vote to pressure and hunt more effectively? It doesn't matter if there was little activity at the time, you still pressure them and it will add to your hunting power.

Because I got angry and not much was happening and I was stressed out.

Quote from: RangerCado on December 16, 2013, 09:10:44 pm

Quote

I support this, but until he does get replaced, I'm still voting him.

Quote

We have 2-4 days, but you're right, I should pursue other avenues at the moment.

So why not move your vote to somewhere productive instead of contradicting your statements in the same post?

I can pursue other avenues without voting people. But you're right, I did waste a weekend.

Quote from: ToonyMan on December 16, 2013, 09:42:16 pm

Persus13 - seems pretty sure Imp is scum as well, and I have to agree there, their starting post for D2 is really fishy though (don't do this (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=133676.msg4829930#msg4829930))

I still don't understand that post is fishy.

Quote from: ToonyMan on December 16, 2013, 02:02:58 pm

Why?  I'm a Psychic Warden and blocked him Night 1.  There was no dopp kill Night 1.  I wasn't initially going to role-claim, but with some pretty incriminating evidence in front of me I see no reason not to.  Care to explain, Imp?

Imp, I know you don't have much time, but can you please take a few minutes to answer this question and respond to my post to you as that would be nice... you scum.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 2 - [1 REPLACEMENT NEEDED]
Post by: Tiruin on December 16, 2013, 10:02:42 pm

Quote from: Persus13 on December 16, 2013, 09:57:31 pm

Imp, I know you don't have much time, but can you please take a few minutes to answer this question and respond to my post to you as that would be nice... you scum.

That's a pretty nice shift there Persus.
Ellipsis + weak accusation. How does this statement here reference your past note on your last vote?

Why're you taking Toony's note at point-blank range? What is your opinion about it..and on where your last vote was in reference to -now-?

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 2 - [1 REPLACEMENT NEEDED]
Post by: Tiruin on December 16, 2013, 10:04:48 pm

Quote from: ToonyMan on December 16, 2013, 09:42:16 pm

Most scum

Imp - Day 1 attacks were odd, ended up voting DarkStar the dopp but can't say I can use that as town evidence after S6...currently think they're a dopp because of lack of kill but they're replacing out!
Tiruin - I'm just going to take a while guess and say they're the Caz kidnapper, it seems like a Tiruin-thing to be true
RangerCado - Defending Imp a lot.  "Can you expound on why your suspicious of Imp more?" (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=133676.msg4830192#msg4830192) at Persus. "...So your suspicious of Imp, partially because his scum list is different than yours?" (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=133676.msg4831032#msg4831032) at Makeinu.
Jim Groovester - It's hard to tell
Superblackcat - I'm not sure what they're doing but they replaced Max White recently so there's not as much to go off of though RVS-type questions on Day 2 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=133676.msg4837747#msg4837747) isn't so great
Persus13 - seems pretty sure Imp is scum as well, and I have to agree there, their starting post for D2 is really fishy though (don't do this (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=133676.msg4829930#msg4829930))
Caz - currently abducted, could be a dopp (which explains the lack of kill) but you can't vote somebody who isn't here
Toaster - I noticed that Toaster has been guiding Makeinu (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=133676.msg4829965#msg4829965) like a scum mentor, but he's right that DarkStar's actions don't make sense for it to be Makeinu scum and so Toaster doesn't look so bad either
makeinu - I don't see anything particularly suspicious and DarkSide's actions don't make that any harder to see

Least scum

Oh come on. I'm your #2 suspect because..you assume I'll abduct Caz..because...what? The only way I see that to be true is that I said I 'take "care" of absent people'.

...Which does make sense in hindsight, however I do have to note that Caz was active D1.

Quote

but you can't vote somebody who isn't here

...You can't?
*checks OP*
..Ah. >_>

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 2 - [1 REPLACEMENT NEEDED]
Post by: Persus13 on December 16, 2013, 10:19:27 pm

Quote from: Tiruin on December 16, 2013, 10:02:42 pm

Quote from: Persus13 on December 16, 2013, 09:57:31 pm

Imp, I know you don't have much time, but can you please take a few minutes to answer this question and respond to my post to you as that would be nice... you scum.

That's a pretty nice shift there Persus.
Ellipsis + weak accusation. How does this statement here reference your past note on your last vote?

Why're you taking Toony's note at point-blank range? What is your opinion about it..and on where your last vote was in reference to -now-?

It was a joke, because I was voting someone and politely asking them to answer some questions.

My opinion is that Imp being scum makes sense to me. Imp seemed to be acting odd this game, and certainly could be scum.

Just because Sinless blocked Imp doesn't necessarily mean she's scum. My pet theory was that someone abducted Caz and that's what disrupted the kill. What I'm worried about is that was a mind Stealer, and there's a third scum player now.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 2 - [1 REPLACEMENT NEEDED]
Post by: makeinu on December 16, 2013, 10:25:34 pm

Going back and reading D1, especially Imp's posts, I better understand two things:

1) why Sinlessmoon would have been motivated to target Imp N1 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=133676.msg4815291#msg4815291), and

2) why ToonyMan rates Imp so high on the scum list, role-claim aside.

---

That's a nice list, ToonyMan, but I still want an answer to this question:

Quote from: makeinu on December 16, 2013, 08:02:10 pm

I'm still curious what your defense would have been without laying a role claim, especially one of such magnitude.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 2 - [1 REPLACEMENT NEEDED]
Post by: Tiruin on December 16, 2013, 10:26:37 pm

Ehh? How 'odd'? I got the feeling too, but I couldn't back it up at all.

Quote from: Persus13 on December 16, 2013, 10:19:27 pm

Just because Sinless blocked Imp doesn't necessarily mean she's scum. My pet theory was that someone abducted Caz and that's what disrupted the kill. What I'm worried about is that was a mind Stealer, and there's a third scum player now.

Meaning Caz did the kill if that notion follows.
..And of all the abductors, I believe we'll just have to see tomorrow on the flavor (note on what I said earlier about being the Organ Harvester--notes of my presence were subtle..but darn obvious. Organs!)
@Bolded part: Wouldn't you mean 4, given how there're 3 dopps?

---

@Toaster/edit

Quote from: Toaster on December 16, 2013, 11:12:42 am

Tiruin:

Quote from: Tiruin on December 15, 2013, 09:12:20 pm

Caz

Why are you directing questions at a player who cannot answer them by dint of being game-absent?

...I've no excuse but to say that my mind didn't register as Caz not not being present at all.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 2 - [1 REPLACEMENT NEEDED]
Post by: makeinu on December 16, 2013, 10:32:13 pm

Quote from: Tiruin on December 16, 2013, 10:26:37 pm

Quote from: Persus13 on December 16, 2013, 10:19:27 pm

What I'm worried about is that was a mind Stealer, and there's a third scum player now.

@Bolded part: Wouldn't you mean 4, given how there're 3 dopps?

No.

Three. One dopp is dead. If there's a Mind Stealer, and Caz was dopp, then there's three scum, two dopp (Caz and ???) and the Mind Stealer with Caz's Wincon adopted.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 2 - [1 REPLACEMENT NEEDED]
Post by: Persus13 on December 16, 2013, 10:43:17 pm

Quote from: makeinu on December 16, 2013, 10:32:13 pm

Quote from: Tiruin on December 16, 2013, 10:26:37 pm

Quote from: Persus13 on December 16, 2013, 10:19:27 pm

What I'm worried about is that was a mind Stealer, and there's a third scum player now.

@Bolded part: Wouldn't you mean 4, given how there're 3 dopps?

No.

Three. One dopp is dead. If there's a Mind Stealer, and Caz was dopp, then there's three scum, two dopp (Caz and ???) and the Mind Stealer with Caz's Wincon adopted.

So four scum players, but one dead, so three living scum players. Either way is right.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 2 - [1 REPLACEMENT NEEDED]
Post by: makeinu on December 16, 2013, 10:47:21 pm

Quote from: Persus13 on December 16, 2013, 10:43:17 pm

So four scum players, but one dead, so three living scum players. Either way is right.

Yes, but that's all predicated on the assumption that Caz is a dopp, and that there's a Mind Stealer out there.

The second notion I'm prepared to accept. The first, less so.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 2 - [1 REPLACEMENT NEEDED]
Post by: makeinu on December 17, 2013, 02:44:48 am

Quote from: makeinu on December 16, 2013, 10:47:21 pm

Yes, but that's all predicated on the assumption that Caz is a dopp, and that there's a Mind Stealer out there.

Something to note about this.

If both of those assumptions are true, that there is a Mind Stealer and Caz is a dopp, then it doesn't matter whether what ToonyMan is saying is true or nor with regards to Imp.

That is, if ToonyMan's role-claim is accurate, it still offers no proof that Imp is a dopp, because two people were targeted for role-blocking actions last night (abduction and straight role-block). That means that either one could be a dopp. Hell, both could for all we know. If ToonyMan's role-claim is false, then we can assume Imp is almost certainly not a dopp.

What we can maybe say is that Imp was not targeted by the dopps last night, since ToonyMan's claimed role stops the target from any night actions of their own, but does not protect them from being targeted by other night actions. Even that is uncertain, because if Caz is a dopp, we have no idea who was targeted at all.

Based on what I've read, and what I believe to be true, I believe that ToonyMan's role-claim is legitimate, Imp is a dopp, there is a Mind Stealer, and Caz is Town. Which means there's only one more dopp after Imp.

Assuming all of what I think I know is true, and only some of it is absolutely verified. The rest might be a web of lies.

Unvote.


Vote Imp.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 2 - [1 REPLACEMENT NEEDED]
Post by: Jim Groovester on December 17, 2013, 03:01:23 am

Imp, can you at least confirm whether or not you were blocked last night?

Quote from: RangerCado on December 16, 2013, 09:10:44 pm

So if you weren't voting him for being dead weight, useless, and needing information via death due to deciding to be lazy with your hunting, what exactly were you voting him for? Because Persus seemed to describe exactly those reasons for makeinu, you, and him.

Read the rest of the post you're quoting, wherein I reiterate to Tiruin my reasons for suspecting Sinlessmoon.

I have my own opinion on why I wanted to lynch Sinlessmoon, makeinu for the most part agreed with me, and Persus13 had his own reasons that were distinct from mine.

Quote from: RangerCado on December 16, 2013, 09:10:44 pm

Insulting someone on a personal level is NOT funny Jim. It can be called a hate crime and I am TIRED of every game being you insulting people every other post. JUST STOP!

A hate crime?

Seriously?

You think I've been committing hate crimes because I play an aggressive mafia game.

Quote from: Persus13 on December 16, 2013, 09:57:31 pm

Quote from: Jim Groovester on December 15, 2013, 11:54:48 pm

These are rationalizations of your vote on Sinlessmoon. Those are potential advantages of having him gone, but those are not the correct justification for your vote.

You should only vote somebody if you think they are scum. I do not get the impression that you believe this is the case. If you want to lynch him because he's dead weight, then that's scummy of you.

So why do you think Sinless was scum?

Can none of you fucking read. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=133676.msg4839857#msg4839857)

You'll notice that this is the very same post that you are responding to.

Have you no response to being called scummy because your reasons for voting Sinlessmoon are rationalizations and not suspicions?

Quote from: Persus13 on December 16, 2013, 09:57:31 pm

Quote from: Jim Groovester on December 15, 2013, 11:54:48 pm

Quote from: Persus13 on December 14, 2013, 11:14:29 pm

and he's asked people to vote Sinlessmoon

How about you tell me where I have done this, because I'm pretty sure I haven't.

You asked Toaster why he wasn't voting Sinlessmoon because of his #1 scumtell, and you asked RangerCado to vote his suspicions, using Sinlessmoon as an example, but not makeinu who he also was suspicious of.

Nuh uh, I asked Toaster why he wasn't giving Sinlessmoon crap, which is not asking him to vote for Sinlessmoon. And I asked why RangerCado wasn't voting his suspects, which is also not asking him to vote for anybody.

Quote from: Persus13 on December 16, 2013, 09:57:31 pm

Imp, I know you don't have much time, but can you please take a few minutes to answer this question and respond to my post to you as that would be nice... you scum.

If I didn't know any better I'd say you were doing a lot of bandwagoning.

Who knows, maybe I don't know any better and you are doing a lot of bandwagoning.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 2 - [1 REPLACEMENT NEEDED]
Post by: ToonyMan on December 17, 2013, 09:17:40 am

@Persus:

Quote from: Persus13 on December 16, 2013, 09:57:31 pm

Quote from: ToonyMan on December 16, 2013, 09:42:16 pm

Persus13 - seems pretty sure Imp is scum as well, and I have to agree there, their starting post for D2 is really fishy though (don't do this (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=133676.msg4829930#msg4829930))

I still don't understand that post is fishy.

Maybe it's become a Bay12 thing, but generally back-patting and celebrating a mafia lynch looks really bad (do it after the game when we win!)

@Makeinu:

Quote from: makeinu on December 16, 2013, 10:25:34 pm

That's a nice list, ToonyMan, but I still want an answer to this question:

Quote from: makeinu on December 16, 2013, 08:02:10 pm

I'm still curious what your defense would have been without laying a role claim, especially one of such magnitude.

Oh yeah, uh, If I didn't have this nice nugget of information (like if I was a cop who inspected a dead guy) then I would probably be screwed.  Genuine scum-hunting is fine and all, but with such a short time and a lot of suspicion on Sinlessmoon I don't think I would be able to take the heat off without some hard proof.  That's why I'm sort of surprised Sinless would lurk through the day.  In the end, you would probably see me desperately struggling to pull something out of my ass.

I admit I would probably end up role-claiming regardless.  But it would have probably been a non-verifiable one.  If Imp says she wasn't blocked then she is lying.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 2 - [1 REPLACEMENT NEEDED]
Post by: Mephansteras on December 17, 2013, 12:08:06 pm

The Whiteboard
Imp: makeinu, Persus13, ToonyMan
Jim Groovester: RangerCado
Persus13: Toaster
ToonyMan: Jim Groovester

---

Day ends ~5pm Pacific Today. There is 1 vote to Extend the day to Wednesday. 3 votes total needed to Extend.


@zombie urist: Thanks. Since the day can't go past Wednesday, I guess we'll leave Imp in charge of herself for the moment unless someone else can jump in (or you think you can find the time to play a bit the next few days). Otherwise, we can have you replace in for her assuming she is not lynched today.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 2 - [1 REPLACEMENT NEEDED]
Post by: Jim Groovester on December 17, 2013, 03:11:09 pm

Extend.

One thing I should point out about Imp.

At the end of the Day 1, the vote was tied until Imp cast the third vote against TheDarkStar. I think this makes her an unlikely candidate for a dopp, unless she likes breaking ties to bus her scumbuddies. It's possible, but I don't see it.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 2 - [1 REPLACEMENT NEEDED]
Post by: Persus13 on December 17, 2013, 04:18:34 pm

Extend.

Will post more later.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 2 - [1 REPLACEMENT NEEDED]
Post by: Toaster on December 17, 2013, 04:24:41 pm

Toony:

Quote from: ToonyMan on December 16, 2013, 09:42:16 pm

@RangerCado:

Quote from: RangerCado on December 16, 2013, 09:10:44 pm

Toonyman: [/b]Although I see no reason to not believe your claim of blocking someone, whos to say there aren't other ability blocking roles currently in play? So if Imp were to flip town, what would you do then?

It's certainly possible Imp is town, but I find it more possible she's a dopp.  They seem to be replacing out though...

Given the reasonable odds that the Caz disappearance could be responsible for the lack of kill, is this block lynchworthy?  Do you have any other evidence against her?

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 2 - [1 REPLACEMENT NEEDED]
Post by: Mephansteras on December 17, 2013, 04:46:27 pm

Day has been Extended to ~5pm Pacific Wednesday. There will be no more extensions this day.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 2 - [1 REPLACEMENT NEEDED]
Post by: ToonyMan on December 17, 2013, 05:16:22 pm

Quote from: Toaster on December 17, 2013, 04:24:41 pm

Toony:

Quote from: ToonyMan on December 16, 2013, 09:42:16 pm

@RangerCado:

Quote from: RangerCado on December 16, 2013, 09:10:44 pm

Toonyman: [/b]Although I see no reason to not believe your claim of blocking someone, whos to say there aren't other ability blocking roles currently in play? So if Imp were to flip town, what would you do then?

It's certainly possible Imp is town, but I find it more possible she's a dopp.  They seem to be replacing out though...

Given the reasonable odds that the Caz disappearance could be responsible for the lack of kill, is this block lynchworthy?  Do you have any other evidence against her?

If Caz was actually vote-able I would definitely consider it, but instead of holding back I'm convinced it would have to be Imp if not Caz.  I don't have any evidence against Caz and I've skimmed over Day 1, Imp's behavior did not look town.

Quote from: Jim Groovester on December 17, 2013, 03:11:09 pm

One thing I should point out about Imp.
At the end of the Day 1, the vote was tied until Imp cast the third vote against TheDarkStar. I think this makes her an unlikely candidate for a dopp, unless she likes breaking ties to bus her scumbuddies. It's possible, but I don't see it.

Hmmm I didn't know that.  Sinless was the only lynch candidate today though so if Imp wasn't under suspect I would be the candidate for hanging (since Caz isn't here).  In fact, if I didn't replace I don't think Sinless would be alive anymore.  I don't have too many other leads besides being generally suspicious of Tiruin and RangerCado's defending of Imp.

Should make that accusatory:

@RangerCado:
Why do you think Imp is town?  They're going to get lynched if nothing changes.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 2 - [1 REPLACEMENT NEEDED]
Post by: Imp on December 17, 2013, 06:01:55 pm

Hey all.  I have no time to catch up on the thread or quote anything.  Throwing this fast and running back to work, which is in shambles.

I confirm I was blocked last night and put to sleep.  I think that means a psychic warden did it.

I don't have time to go and pull quotes about unanswered questions.  Persus answered one with a 'doesn't matter' end of D1, Jim with a no jokes allowed cartoon D1 and others in the S6 game, which only means that Jim tends not to answer my questions, and Toaster didn't answer several/answered them with jokes that didn't actually answer the questions.

If there's other questions for me, I can't even get time to read them right now.  I'm not sure if we've had all extends for today or not, so extend if it's useful.  Sorry to drop the ball on this game, but my hands are tied irl and I don't have the time to do anything more right now.  Or soon.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 2 - [1 REPLACEMENT NEEDED]
Post by: RangerCado on December 17, 2013, 07:54:58 pm

Jim: Hate crime is probably exaggerating, but insulting people by saying they have illnesses, mocking them, and just plain being a rude person in game REALLY gets on my nerves. And alright, your reasons are different. But why wouldn't he then give us a post under threat of replacement? To me, he was just a player abandoning without saying so as he did post elsewhere. So why continue the vote if nothing would come of it?

Toonyman: ...I'm defending Imp? I'm calling him town? Where exactly are you seeing this as I have never claimed him to be town. I asked you what you would do if she did flip town, which you actually didn't answer did you? So, where am I defending Imp and calling her Town, and please actually answer the question about what you will do if Imp flipped town.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 2 - [1 REPLACEMENT NEEDED]
Post by: Jim Groovester on December 17, 2013, 08:32:06 pm

Quote from: RangerCado on December 17, 2013, 07:54:58 pm

Jim: Hate crime is probably exaggerating, but insulting people by saying they have illnesses, mocking them, and just plain being a rude person in game REALLY gets on my nerves.

I don't care, deal with it, world's tiniest violin, world's saddest song, etc. etc.

Have you tried sparring back? It's a lot more interesting than complaining about how I'm being a really big meanie.

Quote from: RangerCado on December 17, 2013, 07:54:58 pm

And alright, your reasons are different. But why wouldn't he then give us a post under threat of replacement? To me, he was just a player abandoning without saying so as he did post elsewhere. So why continue the vote if nothing would come of it?

Threat of lynch is a greater motivator than threat of replacement to anyone who isn't a complete non-player. He said he didn't want replacement during the night; therefore, it's not illogical to assume he'd be aware enough or care enough about the game that a vote cast against him might catch his attention.

If you're wondering why I decided to keep it there as it became more and more certain that Sinlessmoon was a non-player, I was committed to making him talk, lynching him, or seeing him replaced.


Anyways, I think I will unvote ToonyMan now. I don't like the claim but since Imp decided to try riding Sinlessmoon's ass about his activity, it doesn't completely surprise me that he would choose Imp. Persus13 is making me suspicious because of bandwagoning and bad reasons for his votes.

Tiruin, how come you haven't voted anybody yet?

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 2 - [1 REPLACEMENT NEEDED]
Post by: Persus13 on December 17, 2013, 08:42:40 pm

Quote from: Imp on December 17, 2013, 06:01:55 pm

I don't have time to go and pull quotes about unanswered questions.  Persus answered one with a 'doesn't matter' end of D1, Jim with a no jokes allowed cartoon D1 and others in the S6 game, which only means that Jim tends not to answer my questions, and Toaster didn't answer several/answered them with jokes that didn't actually answer the questions.

I'm fully aware Jim didn't answer a question, but so far I've failed to see a question Toaster has failed to answer.

As for me:

Quote from: Imp on December 09, 2013, 07:30:40 am

why are you saying you didn't notice Meph's extend count?  You bothered to trim it out of your quote, so you had to see it when you made this post to me today, right?'

Quote from: Persus13 on December 09, 2013, 07:44:04 am

It doesn't matter. I was concerned about activity. I noticed the extend.

How is this not a valid answer to your question. I pointed out that I noticed the extend, that you seemed to think I had failed to do, and it didn't matter to the point I was making and why.

I'd like to throw something out ot everyone.

Quote from: Imp on December 09, 2013, 06:42:24 pm

PFP 90 minutes to day end.

Compromise vote time.  Max White, TheDarkStar, and Toaster are tied for first place.  I can compromise to Dark or Max.  TheDarkStar's my second Scum pick.  I'll be watching votes as best as work allows in case a tie reappears or other votes are placed.  If work slows down enough I'll be able to answer and ask before day end.

That do you all think of this post. Would Imp bus her scummy looking teammate D1 and be the one to get him lynched?
I think the answer to this is a no, and I think I will Unvote, given that Imp has answered one of my questions and I'm doubting the fact that she's scum.

Quote from: ToonyMan on December 17, 2013, 09:17:40 am

@Persus:

Quote from: Persus13 on December 16, 2013, 09:57:31 pm

Quote from: ToonyMan on December 16, 2013, 09:42:16 pm

Persus13 - seems pretty sure Imp is scum as well, and I have to agree there, their starting post for D2 is really fishy though (don't do this (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=133676.msg4829930#msg4829930))

I still don't understand that post is fishy.

Maybe it's become a Bay12 thing, but generally back-patting and celebrating a mafia lynch looks really bad (do it after the game when we win!)

Okay, thanks, I'll keep that in mind for when I'm scum.

PPE:

Quote from: Jim Groovester on December 17, 2013, 08:32:06 pm

Anyways, I think I will unvote ToonyMan now. I don't like the claim but since Imp decided to try riding Sinlessmoon's ass about his activity, it doesn't completely surprise me that he would choose Imp. Persus13 is making me suspicious because of bandwagoning and bad reasons for his votes.

I fail to see how voting Imp was bandwagoning, since I was voting her and scumhunting her prior to Sinlessmoon.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 2 - [1 REPLACEMENT NEEDED]
Post by: Persus13 on December 17, 2013, 09:21:23 pm

Hey Jim, since I've decided against Imp for the present, and Caz isn't here, it's your turn to be questioned.

Quote from: Jim Groovester on December 12, 2013, 12:31:08 pm

In any case, there was a proper response and you blew it. The proper response was any response that sufficiently convinced me that you were unrattled by my rather obvious insinuation. Sadly you did not give me that impression.

So what is the proper response? Does this instantly mean that someone is scum if they refuse to be rattled?

Quote from: Jim Groovester on December 12, 2013, 12:31:08 pm

If you had said that you weren't a dopp to begin with without trying to explain it too much I probably would've looked elsewhere.

Isn't claiming that your town supposed to be a bad thing?

Quote from: Jim Groovester on December 12, 2013, 12:31:08 pm

Quote from: RangerCado on December 12, 2013, 11:07:33 am

Sinless

. . .

Makeinu

Why are you bothering with FoSing people when you're not voting anybody? Why not just vote one of them? Hell, Sinlessmoon is literally the safest vote in the game right now, why FoS him at all?

What's your problem with people not voting at the beginning of days?

Quote from: Jim Groovester on December 12, 2013, 09:22:50 pm

Quote from: Imp on December 12, 2013, 02:42:38 pm

I HATE JOKES

I AM THE FUNQUISITION

Your question was: what's the purpose of these jokes?

I dunno, maybe they were jokes.

Wasn't this obvious?

I fail to see what questions I haven't answered.

I believe Imp was referring to this:

Quote from: Imp on December 04, 2013, 06:33:36 am

Jim:

Quote from: Jim Groovester on December 03, 2013, 02:52:07 pm

This will affect how I perceive and treat these players, so it's not a useless fluff question like the words I would use to describe my play style.

Quote from: Jim Groovester on December 03, 2013, 01:56:34 am

Quote from: Toaster on December 03, 2013, 12:02:37 am

Jim:  Arrr.  Be ye a swarthy enough pirate to see us out of this mess?

Aye. Be ye a seaworthy enough sailor to smoothly sail to safety?

I see I'm not the only one who got a 'bad enough dude' vibe from the day opening post.

Explain which side of the fluff-line Toaster's question, your answer to it, and your answering question each falls on?  If these are not fluffy to you, what is the useful purpose you see these serving?

Quote from: Imp on December 04, 2013, 06:33:36 am

Jim:

Quote from: Jim Groovester on December 03, 2013, 02:52:07 pm

This will affect how I perceive and treat these players, so it's not a useless fluff question like the words I would use to describe my play style.

Quote from: Jim Groovester on December 03, 2013, 01:56:34 am

Quote from: Toaster on December 03, 2013, 12:02:37 am

Jim:  Arrr.  Be ye a swarthy enough pirate to see us out of this mess?

Aye. Be ye a seaworthy enough sailor to smoothly sail to safety?

I see I'm not the only one who got a 'bad enough dude' vibe from the day opening post.

Quote from: Jim Groovester on December 13, 2013, 11:36:59 pm

So,

You're not voting Sinlessmoon because your vote would do nothing, even though you said you suspected him.

You're voting me because my vote on Sinlessmoon is doing nothing, except if I suspect him, which I do, and also I should be voting you instead because Sinlessmoon is a lurker and therefore I have less reason to suspect him.

You're still trying to get a read on makeinu.

The trap is that Sinlessmoon is a safe vote that is inherently ineffective, except if you suspect Sinlessmoon. Except that you said you suspected him, so it wouldn't be a trap.

And the reason I was more worth a vote than either of the two players you initially FoSed is because...?

That I had to make this summary is stupid.

Your summary isn't working. I don't understand it.

Quote from: Jim Groovester on December 13, 2013, 11:36:59 pm

The correct response is to be completely unfazed by my insinuations.

How is this the correct response? I would fail to see how this helps you discover scum.

Finally, you've seen me as scum since you watched the BM Sprint game. Did you think I was scum, and did I ever bandwagon someone?

So what happened to your case on RangerCado anyway? You said you were leaning scum on him and then stopped talking about him. Was it because no one else voted him?

As for your vote on me, I find it ironic that you've accused me of bandwagoning given that is what you are doing. I'm being voted by two other people (Tiruin and Toaster). Until Toaster voted me you gave no indications that you found me scummy, and now you're voting me for bandwagoning. I've given clear indications of whom I have thought scummy, and I fail to see how voting someone who I have cited as scummy to me before on multiple occasions is "bandwagoning".

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 2 - [1 REPLACEMENT NEEDED]
Post by: Persus13 on December 17, 2013, 09:26:47 pm

Meph: I believe Tiruin is currently voting me.

Quote from: Tiruin on December 15, 2013, 09:12:20 pm

Persus

EBWOP:

Hey Jim, since I've decided against Imp for the present, and Caz isn't here, it's your turn to be questioned.

Quote from: Jim Groovester on December 12, 2013, 12:31:08 pm

In any case, there was a proper response and you blew it. The proper response was any response that sufficiently convinced me that you were unrattled by my rather obvious insinuation. Sadly you did not give me that impression.

So what is the proper response? Does this instantly mean that someone is scum if they refuse to be rattled?

Quote from: Jim Groovester on December 12, 2013, 12:31:08 pm

If you had said that you weren't a dopp to begin with without trying to explain it too much I probably would've looked elsewhere.

Isn't claiming that your town supposed to be a bad thing?

Quote from: Jim Groovester on December 12, 2013, 12:31:08 pm

Quote from: RangerCado on December 12, 2013, 11:07:33 am

Sinless

. . .

Makeinu

Why are you bothering with FoSing people when you're not voting anybody? Why not just vote one of them? Hell, Sinlessmoon is literally the safest vote in the game right now, why FoS him at all?

What's your problem with people not voting at the beginning of days?

Quote from: Jim Groovester on December 12, 2013, 09:22:50 pm

Quote from: Imp on December 12, 2013, 02:42:38 pm

I HATE JOKES

I AM THE FUNQUISITION

Your question was: what's the purpose of these jokes?

I dunno, maybe they were jokes.

Wasn't this obvious?

I fail to see what questions I haven't answered.

I believe Imp was referring to this:

Quote from: Imp on December 04, 2013, 06:33:36 am

Jim:

Quote from: Jim Groovester on December 03, 2013, 02:52:07 pm

This will affect how I perceive and treat these players, so it's not a useless fluff question like the words I would use to describe my play style.

Quote from: Jim Groovester on December 03, 2013, 01:56:34 am

Quote from: Toaster on December 03, 2013, 12:02:37 am

Jim:  Arrr.  Be ye a swarthy enough pirate to see us out of this mess?

Aye. Be ye a seaworthy enough sailor to smoothly sail to safety?

I see I'm not the only one who got a 'bad enough dude' vibe from the day opening post.

Explain which side of the fluff-line Toaster's question, your answer to it, and your answering question each falls on?  If these are not fluffy to you, what is the useful purpose you see these serving?

Quote from: Jim Groovester on December 13, 2013, 11:36:59 pm

So,

You're not voting Sinlessmoon because your vote would do nothing, even though you said you suspected him.

You're voting me because my vote on Sinlessmoon is doing nothing, except if I suspect him, which I do, and also I should be voting you instead because Sinlessmoon is a lurker and therefore I have less reason to suspect him.

You're still trying to get a read on makeinu.

The trap is that Sinlessmoon is a safe vote that is inherently ineffective, except if you suspect Sinlessmoon. Except that you said you suspected him, so it wouldn't be a trap.

And the reason I was more worth a vote than either of the two players you initially FoSed is because...?

That I had to make this summary is stupid.

Your summary isn't working. I don't understand it.

Quote from: Jim Groovester on December 13, 2013, 11:36:59 pm

The correct response is to be completely unfazed by my insinuations.

How is this the correct response? I would fail to see how this helps you discover scum.

Finally, you've seen me as scum since you watched the BM Sprint game. Did you think I was scum, and did I ever bandwagon someone?

So what happened to your case on RangerCado anyway? You said you were leaning scum on him and then stopped talking about him. Was it because no one else voted him?

As for your vote on me, I find it ironic that you've accused me of bandwagoning given that is what you are doing. I'm being voted by two other people (Tiruin and Toaster). Until Toaster voted me you gave no indications that you found me scummy, and now you're voting me for bandwagoning. I've given clear indications of whom I have thought scummy, and I fail to see how voting someone who I have cited as scummy to me before on multiple occasions is "bandwagoning".

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 2 - [1 REPLACEMENT NEEDED]
Post by: Tiruin on December 17, 2013, 09:33:07 pm

PFP

I'm blind and argh self-organization. Wasted time sleeping. :/
Jim

Quote from: Jim Groovester on December 17, 2013, 08:32:06 pm

Tiruin, how come you haven't voted anybody yet?

Eh? I'm voting Persus.
*checks back*
...It wasn't listed in any of Meph's votecounts..and I didn't see it that he didn't see it.
Noted. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=133676.msg4839563#msg4839563)

Also PS: I really doubt Imp is scum because of what I did yesterday night. Granted, it doesn't confirm your action Toony so here's me being vague, but not useless.
<sup>I'm a heroic guard and I saw nothin' or nobody targetin' Imp. I'm "claiming" because I believe nobody would believe me [well, ok, some would, but given the notion of a roving protector, I'd just like to relish this one note of WIFOM'ing scum] and yet I'd assuredly want to plop in the tiniest piece of information relevant to my role.

Yes this is in tiny text and in paragraph form. You're free to believe me or not.</sup>
Anyway, my full reasons are - while Imp's posts are neutral-leaning in essence, her actions near the end of D1 including how I rationalize Imp's playstyle (and how she would be scum on what Toony says) equals a negative.

Though I've to note, Toony is suspecting those who would lean against his notion--all those who 'defend' (wherein all cases of 'defend' that I see are the scummy-ones given the game context) Imp are considered scummy.
This does not sound like scumToony play to me.

---

Quote from: Jim Groovester on December 17, 2013, 08:32:06 pm

Quote from: RangerCado on December 17, 2013, 07:54:58 pm

Jim: Hate crime is probably exaggerating, but insulting people by saying they have illnesses, mocking them, and just plain being a rude person in game REALLY gets on my nerves.

I don't care, deal with it, world's tiniest violin, world's saddest song, etc. etc.

Have you tried sparring back? It's a lot more interesting than complaining about how I'm being a really big meanie.

Spoiler: OOC I guess (click to show/hide)

Well I believe I share the same sort of...outlook as Cado has and, well, we've stuff with expletives. Using it as a way to emphasize something jives wrongly with how we read people, as if they're using it as a tool or a subtle weapon instead of the normal mode of communication leading to suspicion because of how they 'speak'.
..
So yeah. I tried sparring--3 years of getting kicked in the ribs and other lower body areas including my face. It hurts. It's fun. We don't swear at all in Taekwondo. Just SHOUT AT EACH OTHER AND RAWR!

On that note, the post where I did vote was with a note to you..I believe you forgot and are acting on Meph's posts to check if I voted or not, right?

---

---

---

Toony

Quote from: ToonyMan on December 17, 2013, 05:16:22 pm

Quote from: Jim Groovester on December 17, 2013, 03:11:09 pm

One thing I should point out about Imp.
At the end of the Day 1, the vote was tied until Imp cast the third vote against TheDarkStar. I think this makes her an unlikely candidate for a dopp, unless she likes breaking ties to bus her scumbuddies. It's possible, but I don't see it.

Hmmm I didn't know that.  Sinless was the only lynch candidate today though so if Imp wasn't under suspect I would be the candidate for hanging (since Caz isn't here).  In fact, if I didn't replace I don't think Sinless would be alive anymore.  I don't have too many other leads besides being generally suspicious of Tiruin and RangerCado's defending of Imp.

BAHAHAH. "Defending" he says.
So what exactly did Imp's behavior speak non-town to you other than the note of her being 'non-town' (also Imp is a female. We're like that.)

Also you missed my probably badly worded note to you.

Quote from: Tiruin on December 16, 2013, 10:04:48 pm

Quote from: ToonyMan on December 16, 2013, 09:42:16 pm

Most scum

Imp - Day 1 attacks were odd, ended up voting DarkStar the dopp but can't say I can use that as town evidence after S6...currently think they're a dopp because of lack of kill but they're replacing out!
Tiruin - I'm just going to take a while guess and say they're the Caz kidnapper, it seems like a Tiruin-thing to be true
RangerCado - Defending Imp a lot.  "Can you expound on why your suspicious of Imp more?" (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=133676.msg4830192#msg4830192) at Persus. "...So your suspicious of Imp, partially because his scum list is different than yours?" (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=133676.msg4831032#msg4831032) at Makeinu.
Jim Groovester - It's hard to tell
Superblackcat - I'm not sure what they're doing but they replaced Max White recently so there's not as much to go off of though RVS-type questions on Day 2 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=133676.msg4837747#msg4837747) isn't so great
Persus13 - seems pretty sure Imp is scum as well, and I have to agree there, their starting post for D2 is really fishy though (don't do this (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=133676.msg4829930#msg4829930))
Caz - currently abducted, could be a dopp (which explains the lack of kill) but you can't vote somebody who isn't here
Toaster - I noticed that Toaster has been guiding Makeinu (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=133676.msg4829965#msg4829965) like a scum mentor, but he's right that DarkStar's actions don't make sense for it to be Makeinu scum and so Toaster doesn't look so bad either
makeinu - I don't see anything particularly suspicious and DarkSide's actions don't make that any harder to see

Least scum

Oh come on. I'm your #2 suspect because..you assume I'll abduct Caz..because...what? The only way I see that to be true is that I said I 'take "care" of absent people'.

...Which does make sense in hindsight, however I do have to note that Caz was active D1.

You don't bother to expound on your other subjects of notable suspicion.
..Or I'm being ignored. I get that feeling sometimes.

PPE
...Persus:

Quote from: Persus13 on December 16, 2013, 10:19:27 pm

Quote from: Tiruin on December 16, 2013, 10:02:42 pm

Quote from: Persus13 on December 16, 2013, 09:57:31 pm

Imp, I know you don't have much time, but can you please take a few minutes to answer this question and respond to my post to you as that would be nice... you scum.

That's a pretty nice shift there Persus.
Ellipsis + weak accusation. How does this statement here reference your past note on your last vote?

Why're you taking Toony's note at point-blank range? What is your opinion about it..and on where your last vote was in reference to -now-?

It was a joke, because I was voting someone and politely asking them to answer some questions.

My opinion is that Imp being scum makes sense to me. Imp seemed to be acting odd this game, and certainly could be scum.

Just because Sinless blocked Imp doesn't necessarily mean she's scum. My pet theory was that someone abducted Caz and that's what disrupted the kill. What I'm worried about is that was a mind Stealer, and there's a third scum player now.

That's quite a long present you have there compared to what you say here.

I be curious, laddie. What did you see back then--back here--that you're not seeing back up there?

PPE: ...Let me post. :I
Oh. Edited your post by fixing the format. Thanks.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 2 - [1 REPLACEMENT NEEDED]
Post by: Tiruin on December 17, 2013, 09:38:56 pm

Quote from: Imp on December 17, 2013, 06:01:55 pm

Hey all.  I have no time to catch up on the thread or quote anything.  Throwing this fast and running back to work, which is in shambles.

I confirm I was blocked last night and put to sleep.  I think that means a psychic warden did it.

Did you or did you not feel the overwhelming presence of an elder god?
Meaning: Chains. Locks. Keys. Metal bars.
Any of them, did you feel?

Also extend

Quote

Throwing this fast and running back to work, which is in shambles.

Because this applies to me too.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 2 - [1 REPLACEMENT NEEDED]
Post by: Tiruin on December 17, 2013, 09:41:11 pm

And last query before I rush off.

Quote from: Persus13 on December 17, 2013, 08:42:40 pm

Quote from: Imp on December 09, 2013, 06:42:24 pm

PFP 90 minutes to day end.

Compromise vote time.  Max White, TheDarkStar, and Toaster are tied for first place.  I can compromise to Dark or Max.  TheDarkStar's my second Scum pick.  I'll be watching votes as best as work allows in case a tie reappears or other votes are placed.  If work slows down enough I'll be able to answer and ask before day end.

That do you all think of this post. Would Imp bus her scummy looking teammate D1 and be the one to get him lynched?
I think the answer to this is a no, and I think I will Unvote, given that Imp has answered one of my questions and I'm doubting the fact that she's scum.

Does the bolded part take any relevance to why you thought Imp was scum?
Next.
Does the note on people 'missing' questions make them more scummier than not? Why so? Or, why not?

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 2 - [1 REPLACEMENT NEEDED]
Post by: Persus13 on December 17, 2013, 09:49:52 pm

Quote from: Tiruin on December 17, 2013, 09:33:07 pm

I be curious, laddie. What did you see back then--back here--that you're not seeing back up there?

I looked back and noticed that Imp was the deciding vote on DarkStar. That and the fact a roleblock is not  concrete proof Imp is scum cause me to decide that Imp wasn't necessary as scummy as I thought.

Quote from: Tiruin on December 17, 2013, 09:38:56 pm

Also extend

Quote

Throwing this fast and running back to work, which is in shambles.

Because this applies to me too.

We're out of extends.

Quote from: Tiruin on December 17, 2013, 09:41:11 pm

And last query before I rush off.

Quote from: Persus13 on December 17, 2013, 08:42:40 pm

Quote from: Imp on December 09, 2013, 06:42:24 pm

PFP 90 minutes to day end.

Compromise vote time.  Max White, TheDarkStar, and Toaster are tied for first place.  I can compromise to Dark or Max.  TheDarkStar's my second Scum pick.  I'll be watching votes as best as work allows in case a tie reappears or other votes are placed.  If work slows down enough I'll be able to answer and ask before day end.

That do you all think of this post. Would Imp bus her scummy looking teammate D1 and be the one to get him lynched?
I think the answer to this is a no, and I think I will Unvote, given that Imp has answered one of my questions and I'm doubting the fact that she's scum.

Does the bolded part take any relevance to why you thought Imp was scum?
Next.
Does the note on people 'missing' questions make them more scummier than not? Why so? Or, why not?

Partly, Imp is hardly the one to not answer questions, and the fact that despite her needing a replacement she took a little time to answer my question lowered my suspicion slightly. Her D1 vote was the main factor though.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 2 - [1 REPLACEMENT NEEDED]
Post by: Superblackcat on December 17, 2013, 10:29:29 pm

Just to point out...
Heroic Guard Does not see if the person was targeted or not, only Observant Guard does that.

Thanks!

I'll make a more detailed post in half to an hour!

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 2 - [1 REPLACEMENT NEEDED]
Post by: makeinu on December 17, 2013, 10:50:24 pm

Quote from: Jim Groovester on December 17, 2013, 03:11:09 pm

Extend.

One thing I should point out about Imp.

At the end of the Day 1, the vote was tied until Imp cast the third vote against TheDarkStar. I think this makes her an unlikely candidate for a dopp, unless she likes breaking ties to bus her scumbuddies. It's possible, but I don't see it.

TheDarkStar was acting pretty scummy, I think anyone would agree with that. So, that's a WIFOM argument, but let's take it on anyway. Here's the sequence of events changing the vote board D1:

Quote from: Mephansteras on December 09, 2013, 12:45:38 pm

The Whiteboard
Caz: Toaster
Max White: Persus13, Tiruin
Sinlessmoon: Caz
TheDarkStar: Jim Groovester, makeinu
Tiruin: Max White
Toaster: Imp, TheDarkStar

Quote from: Imp on December 09, 2013, 06:42:24 pm

PFP 90 minutes to day end.

Compromise vote time.  Max White, TheDarkStar, and Toaster are tied for first place.  I can compromise to Dark or Max.  TheDarkStar's my second Scum pick.  I'll be watching votes as best as work allows in case a tie reappears or other votes are placed.  If work slows down enough I'll be able to answer and ask before day end.

Quote from: RangerCado on December 09, 2013, 07:38:38 pm

In the end for me, its come down to who do I feel I feel is the biggest threat to the town right now and honestly, its Darkstar for me. I've stated why before, and others have as well. Be I wrong, I will face the consequences. Sorry man, it was fun.

Quote from: Mephansteras on December 09, 2013, 08:07:30 pm

The Whiteboard
Caz: Toaster
Max White: Persus13, Tiruin
Sinlessmoon: Caz
TheDarkStar: Imp, Jim Groovester, makeinu, RangerCado
Toaster: TheDarkStar

Of note, Imp voted TheDarkStar before RangerCado did, and she had been voting Toaster with TheDarkStar before then. When TheDarkStar ended up lynched at the end of the day, and he would've because of RangerCado's vote change, anyone that had acted in any way scummy, in anyone's estimation, that hadn't voted for him would have come under suspicion. And sure enough, Persus13, Tiruin, Caz, Superblackcat (subbing in for Max White), have all come under suspicion. Toaster hasn't, but he's not acted scummy at all the entire game. RangerCado got some pressure from Jim, but he backed down. Other than that, the only suspicion cast at anyone who voted for TheDarkStar has come from people who didn't vote for TheDarkStar.

WIFOM:if I were in Imp's place, and scum, I'd've bused TheDarkStar. In a heartbeat. Just to create the WIFOM.

Ultimately tells us nothing about Imp. Interestingly, the same scum/not-scum argument can be made about RangerCado, for the same reasons.

PPE: Thanks, Superblackcat. I'm glad I'm not the only one to notice Tiruin's role-clam (embiggened for legibility).

Quote from: Tiruin on December 17, 2013, 09:33:07 pm

Also PS: I really doubt Imp is scum because of what I did yesterday night. Granted, it doesn't confirm your action Toony so here's me being vague, but not useless.

I'm a heroic guard and I saw nothin' or nobody targetin' Imp. I'm "claiming" because I believe nobody would believe me [well, ok, some would, but given the notion of a roving protector, I'd just like to relish this one note of WIFOM'ing scum] and yet I'd assuredly want to plop in the tiniest piece of information relevant to my role.

Yes this is in tiny text and in paragraph form. You're free to believe me or not.

Here's my problem, and it's not that the Heroic Guard doesn't see if the person was targeted.

It's that this is the second claim to Heroic Guard I've heard so far today, and the other claim, unlike Tiruin's, specifically was Town Heroic Guard (they can be dopp, if I'm reading correctly). And, also, the third Guard claim I've heard today.

I'll let that sink in for a bit.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 2 - [1 REPLACEMENT NEEDED]
Post by: Superblackcat on December 17, 2013, 11:41:48 pm

Ok, Jim

Quick Clarification.

You voted Sinless because he asked to stay in during the night. Continued once replaced because of the uncertainty of the claim?
Now that the claim has been confirmed, how does your voting/suspect list change?

Persus:: This is... sadly a bandwagon. I think...

Anyways, I'm quite curious as to why you manage to jump onto bandwagons that are started... every single time.

Also, just pulling in METAs here... During Sprint, d1, every single vote, save the 1st one, was jumping on a bandwagon. You were the 2nd person on a person every single time.

In BMXLIII: You jumped in a vote on RPG, He was not yet voted, jumped on bandwagon kleril, but jumped off much sooner than other, and onto Darvi, who was also not yet voted... Jumped back to kleril,

Then he promptly died.

(Thank you for dying, I didn't have to sort through 50k posts).

It seems to me, in the games in which he is not scum, he is much more likely to jump off band wagons, and form his own pressures.

MakeINU Where were the other claims to Guard?

Imp, Sorry about making you be here, or something. But do you have an argument against you being scum?

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 2 - [1 REPLACEMENT NEEDED]
Post by: Tiruin on December 17, 2013, 11:51:11 pm

Luckyblackcat

Quote from: Superblackcat on December 17, 2013, 10:29:29 pm

Just to point out...
Heroic Guard Does not see if the person was targeted or not, only Observant Guard does that.

Thanks!

I'll make a more detailed post in half to an hour!

I know that. D:<
Now, other than my dramatic one-liner here, I figure you've something to say about that?

I note that you haven't voted--ever. Who are your suspects and what did you judge them by?

---

---

makeinu

Quote from: makeinu on December 17, 2013, 10:50:24 pm

Quote from: Jim Groovester on December 17, 2013, 03:11:09 pm

Extend.

One thing I should point out about Imp.

At the end of the Day 1, the vote was tied until Imp cast the third vote against TheDarkStar. I think this makes her an unlikely candidate for a dopp, unless she likes breaking ties to bus her scumbuddies. It's possible, but I don't see it.

TheDarkStar was acting pretty scummy, I think anyone would agree with that. So, that's a WIFOM argument, but let's take it on anyway. [...]

Well, she could've just kept silent and none would be the wiser given the variance and spread of votes, which would give credibility to that notion instead of delving into the WIFOM region there. However the notion does stand that if Max/Toaster was town or scum, she could've voted anyone else...and none would be the wiser.

But the notion holds. Why would she attack a scumbuddy at that moment given that prospect? A strange Dopp with an anti-tech field pertains to a Mad Scientist-type, a valuable commodity to a scumteam given that its the only role that isn't an alien that has an item. Town points perhaps? Plausible. Checking back her posts? It more likely discards the notion of her being scum in my eyes.

Quote

Here's my problem, and it's not that the Heroic Guard doesn't see if the person was targeted.

It's that this is the second claim to Heroic Guard I've heard so far today, and the other claim, unlike Tiruin's, specifically was Town Heroic Guard (they can be dopp, if I'm reading correctly). And, also, the third Guard claim I've heard today.

I'll let that sink in for a bit.

...There were others? Huh. Where did you see them?
Or did I miss them.
...*searches 'guard'*
...*nope*
Why're you letting it sink in for a bit? Intriguing to me, that you're giving an idea but not your own thoughts about it (or forwarding/presenting an idea for others to think about). Something up, there?

Quote

Toaster hasn't [come under suspicion(?)], but he's not acted scummy at all the entire game.

Really? You don't see any suspicion in Toaster? Why?

Quote

WIFOM:if I were in Imp's place, and scum, I'd've bused TheDarkStar. In a heartbeat. Just to create the WIFOM.

Yeah, generalities don't help when people look into the essence of your bus.

Quote

PPE: Thanks, Superblackcat. I'm glad I'm not the only one to notice Tiruin's role-clam (embiggened for legibility).

For the record, I small-ified it so that it would be more obvious. I noted that people often miss my words when they're normal size (weird, but..it's been going on for quite some time) so any deviation from a normal post would catch the eye. ie mini-words.

---

---

PPE: Oh lookie, reply. Superblackcat
...Eh?

Quote from: Superblackcat on December 17, 2013, 11:41:48 pm

Persus:: This is... sadly a bandwagon. I think...

...Are you talking about yourself there? Because your sentence structure looks like you're talking about yourself and your vote, there.

Quote from: Superblackcat on December 17, 2013, 11:41:48 pm

Anyways, I'm quite curious as to why you manage to jump onto bandwagons that are started... every single time.

Also, just pulling in METAs here... During Sprint, d1, every single vote, save the 1st one, was jumping on a bandwagon. You were the 2nd person on a person every single time.

In BMXLIII: You jumped in a vote on RPG, He was not yet voted, jumped on bandwagon kleril, but jumped off much sooner than other, and onto Darvi, who was also not yet voted... Jumped back to kleril,

Then he promptly died.

(Thank you for dying, I didn't have to sort through 50k posts).

...Could you work on the sentence structure more? Why are you pulling metaknowledge to back your vote? How does that act as conclusive evidence?
Does the point of Kleril's death in a universe far, far away have a point here? Why thank his death--given that you somehow look like you're acting more on metaknowledge for substance than what is present in this game judging by the bolded part?

Quote

It seems to me, in the games in which he is not scum, he is much more likely to jump off band wagons, and form his own pressures.

Expound. Details here are vague. What exacts in his playstyle come 'off' to you?

Quote

MakeINU Where were the other claims to Guard?

Searchword: "guard"
..Yeah, I don't see it either.

Also please please please learn to use the forum quote style. It's pretty time-reducing to try to get where you're talking from and which part of who's post you're addressing.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 2 - [1 REPLACEMENT NEEDED]
Post by: Mephansteras on December 17, 2013, 11:55:42 pm

The Whiteboard
Imp: makeinu, ToonyMan
Jim Groovester: Persus13, RangerCado
Persus13: Jim Groovester, Superblackcat, Tiruin, Toaster

---

Day ends ~5pm Pacific Wednesday. There are no more extensions available this day.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 2 - [1 REPLACEMENT NEEDED]
Post by: Superblackcat on December 18, 2013, 12:02:06 am

Ehehe:
Jim, didn't notice that you had unvoted... Oops

Tiruin:
MWAHAHA, MY NINJA MAKES YOUR POST ALL LIES!

Anyways:

Quote

PPE: Oh lookie, reply. Superblackcat
...Eh?
Quote from: Superblackcat on Today at 11:41:48 pm
Persus:: This is... sadly a bandwagon. I think...
...Are you talking about yourself there? Because your sentence structure looks like you're talking about yourself and your vote, there.
Quote from: Superblackcat on Today at 11:41:48 pm
Anyways, I'm quite curious as to why you manage to jump onto bandwagons that are started... every single time.

Also, just pulling in METAs here... During Sprint, d1, every single vote, save the 1st one, was jumping on a bandwagon. You were the 2nd person on a person every single time.

In BMXLIII: You jumped in a vote on RPG, He was not yet voted, jumped on bandwagon kleril, but jumped off much sooner than other, and onto Darvi, who was also not yet voted... Jumped back to kleril,

Then he promptly died.

(Thank you for dying, I didn't have to sort through 50k posts).
...Could you work on the sentence structure more? Why are you pulling metaknowledge to back your vote? How does that act as conclusive evidence?
Does the point of Kleril's death in a universe far, far away have a point here? Why thank his death--given that you somehow look like you're acting more on metaknowledge for substance than what is present in this game judging by the bolded part?

Quote
It seems to me, in the games in which he is not scum, he is much more likely to jump off band wagons, and form his own pressures.
Expound. Details here are vague. What exacts in his playstyle come 'off' to you?

Quote
MakeINU Where were the other claims to Guard?
Searchword: "guard"
..Yeah, I don't see it either.

Also please please please learn to use the forum quote style. It's pretty time-reducing to try to get where you're talking from and which part of who's post you're addressing.

A: Yes I am talking to myself

B: No conclusive evidence. But just the fact that he has jumped on a bandwagon as second is bad enough. Now that it only happens when he is scum... is worse.

Not saying that is conclusive evidence. But when do you have conclusive evidence in mafia?

It was a joke, I was saying that because Persus died, I stopped looking through the thread.

C: Looking through his previous games. He stayed on a bandwagon, only when it got to the point when kleril seemed incredibly scummy, and really had no way out. Other than that, he jumped around and voted others.

(or 2 others)

I don't like people who jump on bandwagons... not one bit.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 2 - [1 REPLACEMENT NEEDED]
Post by: Superblackcat on December 18, 2013, 12:04:53 am

Quote from: Tiruin on December 17, 2013, 09:38:56 pm

Quote from: Imp on December 17, 2013, 06:01:55 pm

Hey all.  I have no time to catch up on the thread or quote anything.  Throwing this fast and running back to work, which is in shambles.

I confirm I was blocked last night and put to sleep.  I think that means a psychic warden did it.

Did you or did you not feel the overwhelming presence of an elder god?
Meaning: Chains. Locks. Keys. Metal bars.
Any of them, did you feel?

Also extend

Quote

Throwing this fast and running back to work, which is in shambles.

Because this applies to me too.

Also, No more extends :P

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 2 - [1 REPLACEMENT NEEDED]
Post by: makeinu on December 18, 2013, 12:16:17 am

Tiruin: I haven't gotten the least scum vibe off Toaster yet, something I can say of no one else in this game. Hell, looking at me from the outside, I totally wonder I didn't get lynched D1. I should be thankful to TheDarkStar for really scumming it up there. And I've noticed that with your posts as well, that people miss things. Perhaps it's because you seem to meander when you write. It's hard to follow your train of thought. Deliberately, I assume.

Quote from: Superblackcat on December 17, 2013, 11:41:48 pm

MakeINU Where were the other claims to Guard?

In PMs. Those are allowed this game, remember?

Why the hell would I role-claim on someone else? That's just dumb, to take what trust has been built and toss it on a fire.

I may play the fool, but that doesn't mean I am one.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 2 - [1 REPLACEMENT NEEDED]
Post by: Superblackcat on December 18, 2013, 12:22:12 am

Oh damn....

After reading through D1, I believe Persus more to be acting bad day 2...

In D1, he seemed very non scummy. Unvote

Hey Toaster, Might you step it up this game? I'm pretty sure I heard somewhere that you and Jim are the masters of Mafia here... I'm quite sad to see what a master of mafia here is.

What posts thus far do you think has had the most impact towards scum hunting?

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 2 - [1 REPLACEMENT NEEDED]
Post by: Tiruin on December 18, 2013, 12:41:42 am

Quote from: Superblackcat on December 18, 2013, 12:02:06 am

Quote from: Tiruin on December 17, 2013, 11:51:11 pm

Quote from: Superblackcat on December 17, 2013, 11:41:48 pm

Persus:: This is... sadly a bandwagon. I think...

...Are you talking about yourself there? Because your sentence structure looks like you're talking about yourself and your vote, there.

A: Yes I am talking to myself

What is your definition of a bandwagon? Does it carry any implicit meaning?

Quote

Quote from: Tiruin on December 17, 2013, 11:51:11 pm

Quote from: Superblackcat on December 17, 2013, 11:41:48 pm

Anyways, I'm quite curious as to why you manage to jump onto bandwagons that are started... every single time.

Also, just pulling in METAs here... During Sprint, d1, every single vote, save the 1st one, was jumping on a bandwagon. You were the 2nd person on a person every single time.

In BMXLIII: You jumped in a vote on RPG, He was not yet voted, jumped on bandwagon kleril, but jumped off much sooner than other, and onto Darvi, who was also not yet voted... Jumped back to kleril,

Then he promptly died.

(Thank you for dying, I didn't have to sort through 50k posts).

...Could you work on the sentence structure more? Why are you pulling metaknowledge to back your vote? How does that act as conclusive evidence?

Quote

B: No conclusive evidence. But just the fact that he has jumped on a bandwagon as second is bad enough. Now that it only happens when he is scum... is worse.

Not saying that is conclusive evidence. But when do you have conclusive evidence in mafia?

It was a joke, I was saying that because Persus died, I stopped looking through the thread.

...So you are using metaknowledge to further your case. Why in the world are you doing that when you say that there's "no conclusive evidence" at all?! That contradicts your whole belief there.

A second person voting on another person is not a bloody bandwagon. Did you look at his reasons for doing so? Why aren't you using those as a reason instead, given how they're more likely than not, relevant towards why he voted and your train of logic here.

Quote

C: Looking through his previous games. He stayed on a bandwagon, only when it got to the point when kleril seemed incredibly scummy, and really had no way out. Other than that, he jumped around and voted others.

(or 2 others)

I don't like people who jump on bandwagons... not one bit.

Define. Bandwagon.

---

makeinu

Quote from: makeinu on December 18, 2013, 12:16:17 am

Tiruin: I haven't gotten the least scum vibe off Toaster yet, something I can say of no one else in this game. Hell, looking at me from the outside, I totally wonder I didn't get lynched D1. I should be thankful to TheDarkStar for really scumming it up there. And I've noticed that with your posts as well, that people miss things. Perhaps it's because you seem to meander when you write. It's hard to follow your train of thought. Deliberately, I assume.

Quote from: Superblackcat on December 17, 2013, 11:41:48 pm

MakeINU Where were the other claims to Guard?

In PMs. Those are allowed this game, remember?

Why the hell would I role-claim on someone else? That's just dumb, to take what trust has been built and toss it on a fire.

I may play the fool, but that doesn't mean I am one.

PMs aren't bloody allowe-
*checks*
Well I'll be damned.

Quote

Rule on PMs: Private Messages are allowed. However, I must be copied on all PMs. Failure to do so will result in very bad things happening to you. In addition you may NOT quote any PM from me, either your initial Role-PM or any role-related PMs. (Night role results, etc).  I'll make an exception for specifically rules-related questions. This is to keep the suspense and uncertainty in the game high. You're not supposed to know if the other person is lying or not, and quoting me gives too much weight to whatever it is you're saying.

Alright wise guy. What's the scoop. You say there were "other" claims yet lookie there, IT'S IN A BLOODY PM. You think I would get that info?

Quote

I may play the fool, but that doesn't mean I am one.

So said faux-fool speaks of other claims, yet dubiously lacks the public notice other than giving notice that he knows of such claims.
Interesting.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 2 - [1 REPLACEMENT NEEDED]
Post by: Superblackcat on December 18, 2013, 12:48:20 am

Makeinu: If you were not going to reveal who pm-ed you, Why did you even bother to reveal that you did indeed get pm-ed? Wouldn't that just be adding to the wifom?

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 2 - [1 REPLACEMENT NEEDED]
Post by: makeinu on December 18, 2013, 12:55:37 am

Quote from: Tiruin on December 18, 2013, 12:41:42 am

PMs aren't bloody allowe-
*checks*
Well I'll be damned.

Yeah, I checked that first. I'm bloody used to using PMs. People will say things in private they won't in the open if they believe those things will stay private.

Quote

Alright wise guy. What's the scoop. You say there were "other" claims yet lookie there, IT'S IN A BLOODY PM. You think I would get that info?

No, I don't. Thing is, I can't directly counter your public role claim, nor am I really doing so. I'm just noting that I've got other role claims that counter yours. Those players choose not to public role claim after you did, that's their business, but I gave my word that I wouldn't out those claims, and I simply won't do it, past this.

But it means that a decision has to be made. Specifically, is your claim to be believed or not?

Because that comes down, to me, to the final answer as to who's scum or not. If your claim is accurate, then one or both of the others is likely inaccurate. Which means I've laid my trust on scum.

Thing is, I believe those other claims. Which means that I have to suspect yours, wherein you claim to have protected Imp, who, as it just so happens, did nothing last night because she was role-blocked. Imp, who you are publicly defending as not scummy today.

No night kill. Two players role-blocked. One, abducted, unable to speak. The other, out and requesting replacement, and silent.

One of them was scum. Of that there's no doubt.

Caz or Imp. Choose.


PPE: Superblackcat, it comes down to trust and whether I'll betray it. I won't, barring compelling reason to do so. Said reason being that one that I've trusted suddenly turns very scummy.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 2 - [1 REPLACEMENT NEEDED]
Post by: Superblackcat on December 18, 2013, 01:00:06 am

Tiruin:
Sorry about lack of quotes:

Quote

Finally, you've seen me as scum since you watched the BM Sprint game. Did you think I was scum, and did I ever bandwagon someone?

So what happened to your case on RangerCado anyway? You said you were leaning scum on him and then stopped talking about him. Was it because no one else voted him?

As for your vote on me, I find it ironic that you've accused me of bandwagoning given that is what you are doing. I'm being voted by two other people (Tiruin and Toaster). Until Toaster voted me you gave no indications that you found me scummy, and now you're voting me for bandwagoning. I've given clear indications of whom I have thought scummy, and I fail to see how voting someone who I have cited as scummy to me before on multiple occasions is "bandwagoning".

Also, his reason towards Jim is... That Jim is voting Persus himself. And then... He goes back and takes some Jim posts, that he doesn't like I guess? He asks questions, argues against those posts... and votes Jim himself. Not a very convincing reasoning at all.

His reason towards Sin was complete bullshit and bandwagon, I will not bother to summarize it.

His reason towards Imp: Psychic Warden claim. Uhhh... I'd call it bandwagoning. It hard to attack the Persus + Persus has no reason other than the Toony's reason. If this isn't bandwagoning... what is?

I switched my vote from Persus to Toaster because I don't like Toaster, He's done what the scum has done in my other two games have done. Appear unnoticed. Squill, and Persus. Both of them I, and others, Town telled purely because nothing could be used against them... They were too much the righteous people.

Toaster... What the hell are you doing?

PPE:

MakeInU: So you won't post the CounterClaims you recieve so the town will get more information... Because of trust? If it was because of trust... You wouldn't be giving out more hints.

Suddenly more scummy...

This is seriously WIFOM, Forcing us to try to figure out who you are referring to as 'suddenly more scummy'.

I'd say just come out with it. You already said Wifom is bad for town, why are you adding more of it?

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 2 - [1 REPLACEMENT NEEDED]
Post by: makeinu on December 18, 2013, 01:16:33 am

It's not WIFOM at all. I know what I know, and I believe the info I have. It's not my place to role-claim for someone else. That is a trust issue, and if you don't see it that way, then that's your problem. Not mine.

This, and only this, is what it comes down to TODAY!!

Quote from: makeinu on December 18, 2013, 12:55:37 am

No night kill. Two players role-blocked. One, abducted, unable to speak. The other, out and requesting replacement, and silent.

One of them was scum. Of that there's no doubt.

Caz or Imp. Choose.

I believe Caz is Town. Ergo, I believe Imp is scum.

Which do you believe? Caz or Imp? Or some improbable sequence of events that goes like this:

Caz is Abducted.
Imp is Guarded.
Imp is role-blocked by a Psychic Warden.
Caz is also targeted for night kill.

Imp can't have been targeted for night kill if Tiruin is telling the truth, because Tiruin would be dead otherwise. And nothing Imp said yesterday gives me reason to believe the dopps would have viewed her as a threat. Neither did Caz, but at least if he (she? I can't remember, I'm sorry) had been the target, I assume the Abduction would stop that from happening.

That's waaaaaaaay too much coincidence in my tea.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 2 - [1 REPLACEMENT NEEDED]
Post by: makeinu on December 18, 2013, 01:20:01 am

Actually, I want to emphasize this point:

Quote from: makeinu on December 18, 2013, 01:16:33 am

Imp can't have been targeted for night kill if Tiruin is telling the truth, because Tiruin would be dead otherwise.

Tiruin: why would you even role-claim this at this point, given ToonyMan's role-claim and Imp's confirmation she was blocked last night?

Superblackcat, there's your WIFOM.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 2 - [1 REPLACEMENT NEEDED]
Post by: Tiruin on December 18, 2013, 01:25:09 am

Quote from: makeinu on December 18, 2013, 12:55:37 am

Quote from: Tiruin on December 18, 2013, 12:41:42 am

PMs aren't bloody allowe-
*checks*
Well I'll be damned.

Yeah, I checked that first. I'm bloody used to using PMs. People will say things in private they won't in the open if they believe those things will stay private.

Quote

Alright wise guy. What's the scoop. You say there were "other" claims yet lookie there, IT'S IN A BLOODY PM. You think I would get that info?

No, I don't. Thing is, I can't directly counter your public role claim, nor am I really doing so. I'm just noting that I've got other role claims that counter yours. Those players choose not to public role claim after you did, that's their business, but I gave my word that I wouldn't out those claims, and I simply won't do it, past this.

But it means that a decision has to be made. Specifically, is your claim to be believed or not?

Because that comes down, to me, to the final answer as to who's scum or not. If your claim is accurate, then one or both of the others is likely inaccurate. Which means I've laid my trust on scum.

Thing is, I believe those other claims. Which means that I have to suspect yours, wherein you claim to have protected Imp, who, as it just so happens, did nothing last night because she was role-blocked. Imp, who you are publicly defending as not scummy today.

No night kill. Two players role-blocked. One, abducted, unable to speak. The other, out and requesting replacement, and silent.

One of them was scum. Of that there's no doubt.

Caz or Imp. Choose.


PPE: Superblackcat, it comes down to trust and whether I'll betray it. I won't, barring compelling reason to do so. Said reason being that one that I've trusted suddenly turns very scummy.

Oho! Intersesting now, more than ever, that you start drawing lines about how my claim 'contradicts', or in the lesser sense, 'counters' others.
You then pull a line which I can't defend myself on, instead saying that it's a personal PM--while I do understand the importance of confidentiality and subterfuge, both on town and scum sides, what presses me on here is that you only state; you issue vagueness and the pull of knowledge there. I don't care (ooo first time I used that statement) about how trust goes behind the lines--I care on what context or content you're presenting and so far it delves down to 'Oh I have x and y that may say otherwise'.

It's like talking to one of the Italian Mafia about what I'll get for my birthday. Either a bullet in the head or a cake. And I'm curious on both due to their tone.

Quote

But it means that a decision has to be made. Specifically, is your claim to be believed or not?

Specifically, to counter: Does it matter? I would be honest in saying that I guarded Imp and saw nothing done to her, aye? Would that note pursue my notion of being a heroic guard?
More specifically: Does it matter along that point given how my claim is positioned?

I like you makeinu. I sense that deep-thinking mind there.

Though I've to inquire on those other claims. Are they contradictory to mine, or do they give you a wider 'view' of what's going on around you to issue doubt on me--if I was one of the sole reasons you stated all that?

Quote

No night kill. Two players role-blocked. One, abducted, unable to speak. The other, out and requesting replacement, and silent.

Woah, woah, woah.
Two players role blocked? Holy-

Quote

Mind Control
    Pure Role-blockers
    Abductors
    Protectors
    Investigators
    Night Kills/Conversions (The War Vet (or equivalent) is sort of an exception, in that he'll kill anyone who targets them on THEIR turn, rather than his)

...Your terminology. Fix it. >_>
Imp just said what she needed be said, really. She was role-blocked, and that is all that is possible to gain, as far as I can read her post. Confirms Toony's word.
Now the problem is: Discernment. On Toony/Imp's side.
However I would LOVE to point that Toony is Sinless' replacement--the crux of today's votes tumbled on Sinless because...he was lurking. That is all.

Quote

One of them was scum. Of that there's no doubt.

Caz or Imp. Choose.

No doubt?
How's about doubt that they didn't choose to kill to check on whether there would be other killers? That's a possibility--you seem to discard that, or they hit someone protected. Or they've something that sacrifices the kill for something else...

Meph: Are all roles in the OP as they are? No new roles in-game? No roles which are previously thought to be in-game but aren't in the OP, are not in game, right?

---

---

---

SBC

Quote from: Superblackcat on December 18, 2013, 01:00:06 am

Tiruin:
Sorry about lack of quotes:

Quote

Finally, you've seen me as scum since you watched the BM Sprint game. Did you think I was scum, and did I ever bandwagon someone?

So what happened to your case on RangerCado anyway? You said you were leaning scum on him and then stopped talking about him. Was it because no one else voted him?

As for your vote on me, I find it ironic that you've accused me of bandwagoning given that is what you are doing. I'm being voted by two other people (Tiruin and Toaster). Until Toaster voted me you gave no indications that you found me scummy, and now you're voting me for bandwagoning. I've given clear indications of whom I have thought scummy, and I fail to see how voting someone who I have cited as scummy to me before on multiple occasions is "bandwagoning".

Also, his reason towards Jim is... That Jim is voting Persus himself. And then... He goes back and takes some Jim posts, that he doesn't like I guess? He asks questions, argues against those posts... and votes Jim himself. Not a very convincing reasoning at all.

His reason towards Sin was complete bullshit and bandwagon, I will not bother to summarize it.

Ok. I'll cut it off there because the tone is...very suspicious.
First: A helpful note.

Code: [Select]

[url=PUT THE LINK HERE]Any word to describe the linked post[/url]This helps issue the link to another's post.
Second: The place where I cut it--all Jim's posts referred to how he speculated the difference between lurker, and actor. One who would act in the night, when saying he wouldn't need to be replaced, and then getting awaaaaaaaaay for a whole new day was the convincing line--I was unconvinced at first until he expounded on it.

You don't seem to be convinced, and instead discard it wholly. Oh, wait, that's Toaster you're talking about, isn't it. This is what I get for seeing the lack of posts and rushing >_>

If you won't bother to summarize it, then you're failing both your own case and that presented against you given how..well, how you voted Toaster just a few posts ago. Because that seriously is a killer to your credibility. As if you're just hopping votes. Jumpy. Like a cat, afraid, unsure, yet one who must present.

Quote

His reason towards Imp: Psychic Warden claim. Uhhh... I'd call it bandwagoning. It hard to attack the Persus + Persus has no reason other than the Toony's reason. If this isn't bandwagoning... what is?

Expound or reword. I can't get this straight. Your thought process is intangental to mine. What're you thinking about here.

Quote

I switched my vote from Persus to Toaster because I don't like Toaster,

If I'd cut it off at this part, all my reaction would be is 'wat. ._.' But let's continue.

Quote

He's done what the scum has done in my other two games have done. Appear unnoticed. Squill, and Persus. Both of them I, and others, Town telled purely because nothing could be used against them... They were too much the righteous people.

METAKNOWLEDGE.
Why is metaknowledge so presentful here?! Why do you keep on using it as a defining aspect to get a surefire way on who is scum and who isn't? You're also advancing the notion that he's 'appearing too Towny'. Define and deconstruct that label for us to understand!

Where is your list on suspects?

What do you think about me?

---

---

Quote from: makeinu on December 18, 2013, 01:20:01 am

Tiruin: why would you even role-claim this at this point, given ToonyMan's role-claim and Imp's confirmation she was blocked last night?

That's my WIFOM for scum. While it would give me joy to see others thinking deeply on it, I just claimed because of the essence of the claim--Imp is innocent in my eyes from what I've got.

All those two other claims state are these:
> I blocked someone.
> Yes I was blocked.
Confirmation.

Now this mostly works when the target was the one who performed the NK--and in that sense, is the one who would die. However I'm throwing caution to the wind in looking at the coincidence of it:
> Scum may choose to non-NK or they hit a protector who is still alive.
> There is a roleblocker.
...cue results.
And that it's really quite early given the prospect of the claiming--what I can say however is that either Toony/Imp is scum (ie can't be together) or they're both town [+ incidence of third-party alien and all but that's what I see primarily] in their relations.

What are your thoughts on the matters now? The votes and who they're on, makeinu.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 2 - [1 REPLACEMENT NEEDED]
Post by: Jim Groovester on December 18, 2013, 01:45:07 am

Quote from: Tiruin on December 17, 2013, 09:33:07 pm

I'm a heroic guard and I saw nothin' or nobody targetin' Imp. I'm "claiming" because I believe nobody would believe me [well, ok, some would, but given the notion of a roving protector, I'd just like to relish this one note of WIFOM'ing scum] and yet I'd assuredly want to plop in the tiniest piece of information relevant to my role.

Yes this is in tiny text and in paragraph form. You're free to believe me or not.

This does not prove anything nor mean anything since Heroic Guards are not aware of anybody who targets their target nor where their target goes.

Quote from: Tiruin on December 17, 2013, 09:33:07 pm

On that note, the post where I did vote was with a note to you..I believe you forgot and are acting on Meph's posts to check if I voted or not, right?

Yes, that is correct. I skimmed Day 2 to see if you had voted and unvoted at any point and still didn't catch the vote you cast.

Quote from: Persus13 on December 17, 2013, 08:42:40 pm

I'd like to throw something out ot everyone.

Yeah, just throw it out there like I didn't already.

Quote from: Persus13 on December 17, 2013, 08:42:40 pm

Okay, thanks, I'll keep that in mind for when I'm scum.

I like your subtle town claim.

Quote from: Persus13 on December 17, 2013, 09:26:47 pm

Hey Jim, since I've decided against Imp for the present, and Caz isn't here, it's your turn to be questioned.

Oh, nice. I'm sure this has nothing to do with my recent vote on you.

Quote from: Persus13 on December 17, 2013, 09:26:47 pm

So what is the proper response? Does this instantly mean that someone is scum if they refuse to be rattled?

The proper town response is to be unfazed. Panicky people are scummy, and panicky people because of dumb insinuation are also scummy.

What's your point with bringing this up?

Quote from: Persus13 on December 17, 2013, 09:26:47 pm

Quote from: Jim Groovester on December 12, 2013, 12:31:08 pm

If you had said that you weren't a dopp to begin with without trying to explain it too much I probably would've looked elsewhere.

Isn't claiming that your town supposed to be a bad thing?

It's more about denying being a dopp than claiming town when challenged with dumb insinuation.

I'm sure you were perfectly fine with doing this when you were similarly challenged:

Quote from: Persus13 on December 14, 2013, 10:42:00 pm

Quote from: Toaster on December 14, 2013, 09:58:23 pm

So tell me, dopp, what did happen with your kill last night?

Considering the fact that I'm not a dopp, I don't really know.

Unless you're willing to admit that this implicit town claim is bad somehow.

Quote from: Persus13 on December 17, 2013, 09:26:47 pm

What's your problem with people not voting at the beginning of days?

My problem is with people not voting suspects.

Quote from: Persus13 on December 17, 2013, 09:26:47 pm

I believe Imp was referring to this:

You're probably right.

Why are you bringing it up, though?

Quote from: Persus13 on December 17, 2013, 09:26:47 pm

Your summary isn't working. I don't understand it.

Okay.

Is there a point here?

If I perfectly understood what RangerCado was getting at I wouldn't bother with a summary.

Quote from: Persus13 on December 17, 2013, 09:26:47 pm

How is this the correct response? I would fail to see how this helps you discover scum.

It only helps if they give the incorrect response, which happens occasionally.

This makes it worthwhile to try.

Quote from: Persus13 on December 17, 2013, 09:26:47 pm

Finally, you've seen me as scum since you watched the BM Sprint game. Did you think I was scum, and did I ever bandwagon someone?

Ehhhh, not really. I didn't pay much attention, or any, to the game and I didn't go back once the game was over and take down notes on people's meta.

Quote from: Persus13 on December 17, 2013, 09:26:47 pm

So what happened to your case on RangerCado anyway? You said you were leaning scum on him and then stopped talking about him. Was it because no one else voted him?

I ran out of things to press him over. He's been doing a not terrible job of being active and questioning people since then.

Quote from: Persus13 on December 17, 2013, 09:26:47 pm

As for your vote on me, I find it ironic that you've accused me of bandwagoning given that is what you are doing. I'm being voted by two other people (Tiruin and Toaster). Until Toaster voted me you gave no indications that you found me scummy, and now you're voting me for bandwagoning. I've given clear indications of whom I have thought scummy, and I fail to see how voting someone who I have cited as scummy to me before on multiple occasions is "bandwagoning".

You can call it what you like and I will do the same, and we'll see whose argument sticks.

You were voting Imp, sure, but then you jumped to Sinlessmoon for weak reasons, and then you jumped back to Imp when ToonyMan claimed, and then you had a reversal of your opinion as soon as there were people willing to argue against the idea of Imp being scum. You are jumping on votes of most convenience, and if that isn't bandwagoning then I don't know what is.

State your case on me. I have no idea what you're voting me for and I have no idea what feasible purpose you have for all those posts you brought up.

Quote from: Superblackcat on December 17, 2013, 11:41:48 pm

Ok, Jim

Quick Clarification.

You voted Sinless because he asked to stay in during the night. Continued once replaced because of the uncertainty of the claim?
Now that the claim has been confirmed, how does your voting/suspect list change?

Yes. It wasn't the uncertainty of the claim; I didn't really doubt that Sinlessmoon/ToonyMan blocked Imp or that Imp would have confirmed it. I was more worried about Sinlessmoon's choice of target.

It doesn't really change my suspect list very much. ToonyMan replacing in and not being ridiculously scummy from the get go had more effect on my list of suspicions than his claim or it being confirmed.

Quote from: makeinu on December 17, 2013, 10:50:24 pm

It's that this is the second claim to Heroic Guard I've heard so far today, and the other claim, unlike Tiruin's, specifically was Town Heroic Guard (they can be dopp, if I'm reading correctly). And, also, the third Guard claim I've heard today.

I'll let that sink in for a bit.

Roles are not exclusive in this game, and the existence of two Heroic Guards does not imply that they are of opposite alignment.

Quote from: makeinu on December 18, 2013, 12:55:37 am

Yeah, I checked that first. I'm bloody used to using PMs. People will say things in private they won't in the open if they believe those things will stay private.

Don't expect people to fall in line with what you're arguing because of unknown claims exchanged in private.

Quote from: makeinu on December 18, 2013, 12:55:37 am

Caz or Imp. Choose.

Caz could've been the target of the night kill, which means that the list of people who could have feasibly performed the kill but were blocked widens to everybody. Trying to narrow down the choices to just those two, only one of whom is actually able to voted right now, is shortsighted and faulty.

Quote from: makeinu on December 18, 2013, 01:20:01 am

Actually, I want to emphasize this point:

Quote from: makeinu on December 18, 2013, 01:16:33 am

Imp can't have been targeted for night kill if Tiruin is telling the truth, because Tiruin would be dead otherwise.

Lots of people don't get targeted by the nightkill.

I fail to see the point of your emphasis.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 2 - [1 REPLACEMENT NEEDED]
Post by: Superblackcat on December 18, 2013, 01:56:41 am

I'm seriously not going to bother with links, please Tiruin, don't force it on me.

Tiruin:
SBC
Quote from: Superblackcat on Today at 01:00:06 am
Tiruin:
Sorry about lack of quotes:
Quote
Finally, you've seen me as scum since you watched the BM Sprint game. Did you think I was scum, and did I ever bandwagon someone?

So what happened to your case on RangerCado anyway? You said you were leaning scum on him and then stopped talking about him. Was it because no one else voted him?

As for your vote on me, I find it ironic that you've accused me of bandwagoning given that is what you are doing. I'm being voted by two other people (Tiruin and Toaster). Until Toaster voted me you gave no indications that you found me scummy, and now you're voting me for bandwagoning. I've given clear indications of whom I have thought scummy, and I fail to see how voting someone who I have cited as scummy to me before on multiple occasions is "bandwagoning".

Also, his reason towards Jim is... That Jim is voting Persus himself. And then... He goes back and takes some Jim posts, that he doesn't like I guess? He asks questions, argues against those posts... and votes Jim himself. Not a very convincing reasoning at all.

His reason towards Sin was complete bullshit and bandwagon, I will not bother to summarize it.
Ok. I'll cut it off there because the tone is...very suspicious.
First: A helpful note.
Code: [Select]
Any word to describe the linked post (http://PUT THE LINK HERE)
This helps issue the link to another's post.
Second: The place where I cut it--all Jim's posts referred to how he speculated the difference between lurker, and actor. One who would act in the night, when saying he wouldn't need to be replaced, and then getting awaaaaaaaaay for a whole new day was the convincing line--I was unconvinced at first until he expounded on it.

You don't seem to be convinced, and instead discard it wholly. Oh, wait, that's Toaster you're talking about, isn't it. This is what I get for seeing the lack of posts and rushing >_>

If you won't bother to summarize it, then you're failing both your own case and that presented against you given how..well, how you voted Toaster just a few posts ago. Because that seriously is a killer to your credibility. As if you're just hopping votes. Jumpy. Like a cat, afraid, unsure, yet one who must present.
[/quote]

Alright, I won't summarize it, because it's generic, been discussed about 10x and I'm sure every side of the story has been represented... Some way shape or form. If you can't figure it out... Well, go reread, because this has been 70% of d2.

'Oh that's Toaster you are talking about'

What are you talking about?... Everything there is about Persus. Only after my bold of Toaster do I start talking about Toaster.

Persus' reason against Sin was... He is lurking=deadweight... Now, if you will look back to Jim's response to that. "If you vote someone for lurking, but not actually for them being scummy, you are not scum hunting" or something along those lines.

Persus basically copied the reason for Sin... If this isn't bandwagon...

Alright, I'll define jumping onto a bandwagon: Voting someone with reasons of the people who voted him previously. Or something along those lines...

Now lets move on:

Quote

Quote

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

[spoiler]His reason towards Imp: Psychic Warden claim. Uhhh... I'd call it bandwagoning. It hard to attack the Persus + Persus has no reason other than the Toony's reason. If this isn't bandwagoning... what is?
Expound or reword. I can't get this straight. Your thought process is intangental to mine. What're you thinking about here.

[/spoiler]

Uh, look at my definition at bandwagon... Persus jumps onto Imp with Toony's reason after Toony votes Imp... (I'd say perfect fit!)

Quote

Quote
He's done what the scum has done in my other two games have done. Appear unnoticed. Squill, and Persus. Both of them I, and others, Town telled purely because nothing could be used against them... They were too much the righteous people.
METAKNOWLEDGE.
Why is metaknowledge so presentful here?! Why do you keep on using it as a defining aspect to get a surefire way on who is scum and who isn't? You're also advancing the notion that he's 'appearing too Towny'. Define and deconstruct that label for us to understand!

Where is your list on suspects?

What do you think about me?

Tiruin: Metaknowledge is how you play the game, if what this is is meta knowledge. I'm basically listing out scumtells for me, where I get them, and then how it applies. Scumtells on this forum comes from previous games. Meta? I think not.

Appearing too towny, (Scumtell): This is where a player can be read right over. They have nothing. They appear incredibly towny because they don't do anything, they don't take any risks. I regular town would take risks of appearing scummy to attack others. Someone 'Appearing too towny' doesn't take those risks, and instead, just kind of go with the flow, and doesn't anger anyone. They point or more or less useless scumtells, either pointed out before, or reworded.

List of Suspects:
Most:
Persus, Toaster, Imp
Jim, Ranger, Makeinu
Tiruin
Least

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 2 - [1 REPLACEMENT NEEDED]
Post by: makeinu on December 18, 2013, 03:06:19 am

Quote from: Tiruin on December 18, 2013, 01:25:09 am

Quote

But it means that a decision has to be made. Specifically, is your claim to be believed or not?

Specifically, to counter: Does it matter? I would be honest in saying that I guarded Imp and saw nothing done to her, aye? Would that note pursue my notion of being a heroic guard?
More specifically: Does it matter along that point given how my claim is positioned?

Yet you're positing your role claim as relevant to Imp's innocence. It's circular reasoning, except that it's not even circular.

Quote

"I believe Imp is Town, so I Guard her, and I see her do nothing, but she was role-blocked so she couldn't have done anything and my role won't tell me anyway whether she did anything, and she wasn't targeted last night by the scum, therefore my view that she's Town is correct."

Am I missing something there? Because that's what you seem to be saying, and it confuses me even more! Doubly so when I wonder why you'd role-claim now?

Quote

I like you makeinu. I sense that deep-thinking mind there.

Though I've to inquire on those other claims. Are they contradictory to mine, or do they give you a wider 'view' of what's going on around you to issue doubt on me--if I was one of the sole reasons you stated all that?

Not necessarily contradictory per se, and yes, it gives me a "wider view", but that's not where my doubt on you arises from.

Quote

Quote

No night kill. Two players role-blocked. One, abducted, unable to speak. The other, out and requesting replacement, and silent.

Woah, woah, woah.
Two players role blocked? Holy-

Quote

Mind Control
    Pure Role-blockers
    Abductors
    Protectors
    Investigators
    Night Kills/Conversions (The War Vet (or equivalent) is sort of an exception, in that he'll kill anyone who targets them on THEIR turn, rather than his)

...Your terminology. Fix it. >_>

Quote

Abduction: When a player abducts another player, two things happen. First, the abducted player is role-blocked for the night.

No need to, it's perfectly accurate the way it is. The Abductor is a role-blocker, just not a pure one.

Quote

Now the problem is: Discernment. On Toony/Imp's side.
However I would LOVE to point that Toony is Sinless' replacement--the crux of today's votes tumbled on Sinless because...he was lurking. That is all.

Seems to me the problem is more: Deflection.

Quote

Quote

One of them was scum. Of that there's no doubt.

Caz or Imp. Choose.

No doubt?

To me, right now, no. I am firmly of the mind that one of them is scum. That doesn't mean I don't have other suspects, Jim, to reply to this:

Quote from: Jim Groovester on December 18, 2013, 01:45:07 am

Trying to narrow down the choices to just those two, only one of whom is actually able to voted right now, is shortsighted and faulty.

Quote

How's about doubt that they didn't choose to kill to check on whether there would be other killers? That's a possibility--you seem to discard that,

Give me that and a dollar and I might be able to buy a cup of coffee. I'll admit, as scum, I've skipped a night kill to confuse, but never on night one, and never at these odds.

Quote

or they hit someone protected.

So, they targeted Caz, since that's the only possibility that doesn't end with a dead scum or a dead guard. Which means Caz is Town, if your logic here is correct.

Quote

What are your thoughts on the matters now? The votes and who they're on, makeinu.

Persus: can't seem to make up his mind, on that, I agree with Jim. I just don't agree that makes him scum. Scummy, sure, maybe, but scum? Not feeling it.

Jim: also not feeling it. Single-minded in his hounding, but that's good scum-hunting. Chase someone until they break, then read the entrails for signs.

Imp: made my case for that one repeatedly.

---

Quote from: Jim Groovester on December 18, 2013, 01:45:07 am

Quote from: makeinu on December 18, 2013, 01:20:01 am

Actually, I want to emphasize this point:

Quote from: makeinu on December 18, 2013, 01:16:33 am

Imp can't have been targeted for night kill if Tiruin is telling the truth, because Tiruin would be dead otherwise.

Lots of people don't get targeted by the nightkill.

I fail to see the point of your emphasis.

Tiruin claimed to have guarded Imp last night. If Imp was the night kill target, one of two things is true:

1) Tiruin did guard, and would be dead.
2) Tiruin did not guard, and Imp would be dead.

That neither is dead tells us that Imp was not the target of the night kill. Only two possibilities remaining:

1) The dopps forewent a night kill after losing one to lynch. Highly unlikely does not begin to describe how I feel that possibility is.
2) Caz was the target of the night kill.

Still too much coincidence in my tea, but when you have eliminated the impossible, what remains, however improbable, must be the truth.

---

Superblackcat:

Your posts are nigh impenetrable. I can hardly tell if you're making a statement, much less a point.

Quote from: Superblackcat on December 18, 2013, 01:56:41 am

Tiruin: Metaknowledge is how you play the game, if what this is is meta knowledge. I'm basically listing out scumtells for me, where I get them, and then how it applies. Scumtells on this forum comes from previous games. Meta? I think not.

Quote

Vicky (http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Little_Britain#Episode_Six_.5B1.06.5D): Yeah but no but yeah but no but yeah but no because I've never had sex apart from that one time eight months ago but apart from that I'm a complete virgin.

Is it meta, or is it Memorex? Seriously, dude, can I at least have some syrup with the waffles?

Quote

Appearing too towny, (Scumtell): This is where a player can be read right over. They have nothing. They appear incredibly towny because they don't do anything, they don't take any risks. I regular town would take risks of appearing scummy to attack others. Someone 'Appearing too towny' doesn't take those risks, and instead, just kind of go with the flow, and doesn't anger anyone. They point or more or less useless scumtells, either pointed out before, or reworded.

Which, oddly enough, Imp was doing all day D1. Come to think, it's what Toaster is doing as well, still...

Toaster? Oh, Toaster!? Care to comment?

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 2 - [1 REPLACEMENT NEEDED]
Post by: Superblackcat on December 18, 2013, 03:09:58 am

I'd like to know how the hell 'memorosex' is connected... in any way shape or form. please.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 2 - [1 REPLACEMENT NEEDED]
Post by: makeinu on December 18, 2013, 03:23:22 am

Because when I read that bit about metaknowledge, all I could think of was Vicky from 'Little Britain'.

"Yeah, but no, but yeah, but no, but... something unrelated!"

Make up your mind already! Is it meta (yes) or isn't it meta (it is)?

And then you turn around and explain that what you're using is metaknowledge, pulling tells from player performance in other games, but insist at the end it's not, and that had my mind riff on the old '80's Memorex commercials. I... can't even say why. I'm tired, my mind is making weird connections, it's past midnight...

And why am I even explaining this? *goes to bed*

Wake me when you make your point cogent, because I can't sort your words from anyone else's...

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 2 - [1 REPLACEMENT NEEDED]
Post by: Imp on December 18, 2013, 07:13:48 am

I should be asleep, I'm dead tired.

I believe I have a chance to check in tomorrow about 6 hours before end of Day, then again about 2 hours before end of Day.

I'd like to see a few questions answered if possible before I vote.  If they don't get answered I'll vote without those answers.

---

---

Quote from: Tiruin on December 17, 2013, 09:38:56 pm

Quote from: Imp on December 17, 2013, 06:01:55 pm

I confirm I was blocked last night and put to sleep.  I think that means a psychic warden did it.

Did you or did you not feel the overwhelming presence of an elder god?
Meaning: Chains. Locks. Keys. Metal bars.
Any of them, did you feel?

Great question.  Goes with this one:

Quote from: Persus13 on December 16, 2013, 09:09:24 pm

Hello Toony! So Imp got blocked last night. Any other details you can add (ex. flavor)?

Toonyman has not answered this question, which I also want to know.

---

---

---

Quote from: ToonyMan on December 17, 2013, 09:17:40 am

@Makeinu:

Quote from: makeinu on December 16, 2013, 10:25:34 pm

That's a nice list, ToonyMan, but I still want an answer to this question:

Quote from: makeinu on December 16, 2013, 08:02:10 pm

I'm still curious what your defense would have been without laying a role claim, especially one of such magnitude.

Oh yeah, uh, If I didn't have this nice nugget of information (like if I was a cop who inspected a dead guy) then I would probably be screwed.  Genuine scum-hunting is fine and all, but with such a short time and a lot of suspicion on Sinlessmoon I don't think I would be able to take the heat off without some hard proof.  That's why I'm sort of surprised Sinless would lurk through the day.  In the end, you would probably see me desperately struggling to pull something out of my ass.

I admit I would probably end up role-claiming regardless.  But it would have probably been a non-verifiable one.  If Imp says she wasn't blocked then she is lying.

Toonyman says his/Sinlessmoon having blocked me is "hard proof".  I do not understand what this hard proof is.

One thing it appears to prove is that Toonyman is a Psychic Warden.  But why would Toonyman want that proven?  Psychic Wardens are either Town or Dopplegangers, but never aliens if I understand the roles right.

Spoiler: Considering why Toonyman might want to claim Psychic Warden (click to show/hide)

We know we have an abductor role.  All abductors are aliens.  Could Caz have been the Psychic Warden who targeted me?  Psychic Wardens are 'Pure Role-blockers', the action comes before abduction, so this is possible.

I wonder if Sinlessmoon was a Xenozoologist who targeted Caz, and Caz might have been the Warden who targeted me.  Sinlessmoon was doing something.  We know he PMed Meph that he wanted to keep playing, but he apparently didn't want to talk to us in the thread.  Xenozoologists and their abductions can PM each other freely.  Could Caz have told Sinlessmoon what he did night 1?  Would Caz have told him?  If so, Caz I sure hope you didn't tell him anything about the action's flavor.

Then Toonyman inherited the role and related information, and the pressure of several votes when he entered play.  Toony gave no flavor information in his role claim, though he was correct about my having been targeted by a Psychic Warden N1.  And he saw, or claimed to see this as 'hard proof' that I was Scum.

Toonyman, why didn't you answer the question about the flavor of your action?  For that matter, why did you state your role claim and action result without discussing flavor?  And of course, what was the flavor of your night action?  Caz, in case this applies and you're still reading the thread, remember you don't have to tell him if you haven't yet.  Giving your abductor more information doesn't appear likely to get you freed, but if you offered this as a clue and hoped your abductor might use it and someone would catch it, I hope it is caught too.

As to the flavor of my N1 PM, I'll answer after Toonyman does.  I should have those two chances to get online tomorrow before day end.

---

---

Quote from: makeinu on December 18, 2013, 01:16:33 am

Words expressing certainty that either Imp or Caz is Scum

Quote from: ToonyMan on December 16, 2013, 02:02:58 pm

I'd like to get out of the way that Imp should be lynched today.

Why?  I'm a Psychic Warden and blocked him Night 1.  There was no dopp kill Night 1.  I wasn't initially going to role-claim, but with some pretty incriminating evidence in front of me I see no reason not to.

makeinu and Toonyman:  Have you read the possible roles completely?  Including the Tech picks?

Could this explain what happened to the night kill, and why no one admitted to having survived a night kill?

Quote from: Mephansteras on November 26, 2013, 12:05:45 pm

•Small Tech
◦Personal Shield: Works once as though guarded by the Guardian. Will also protect against Morningkills.

I haven't had time to read any previous Paranormals.  I don't know what kind of information the target gets if a night or morning kill is eaten by a personal shield.

If there's no information about use of a personal shield, the target couldn't speak about it because of ignorance.

If there is information about using a personal shield, the target might not choose to speak about it because only aliens have access to tech.

Any type of alien with access to small tech could have it, and because of the large tech 'replicator' object, any alien with access to large tech could have it too.  That makes a huge mess of roles and Wincons who could possibly have eaten a Nightkill without dying - but admitting to surviving a nightkill is tantamount to admitting being a guardian, a tough doppelganger, or having had a personal shield (and thus being alien).

makeinu:  Do you disagree with this information?  I assume you 'missed' it when you were reading the OP, but if you want to explain why you disregarded this info I'm eager to hear it.  Given this information, please explain why you say it is absolutely true that one of either Caz or I must be Scum.

---

---

Toonyman:  You have proven that you know I was targeted by a psychic warden last night, but if you knew about personal shields or if you were aware that Caz was abducted, you know your "hard proof" isn't quite that.

Quote from: ToonyMan on December 17, 2013, 09:17:40 am

Oh yeah, uh, If I didn't have this nice nugget of information (like if I was a cop who inspected a dead guy) then I would probably be screwed.  Genuine scum-hunting is fine and all, but with such a short time and a lot of suspicion on Sinlessmoon I don't think I would be able to take the heat off without some hard proof.

Quote from: ToonyMan on December 16, 2013, 09:42:16 pm

It's certainly possible Imp is town, but I find it more possible she's a dopp.  They seem to be replacing out though...

So you say it's "certainly possible Imp is town".  And you also say lynch me, because you know I was targeted by a warden last night.

Even if you are telling the truth about being the Warden that targetted me, I think that's a pretty garbage case made for pretty selfish motives.  I'm really interested in seeing if the flavor you claim from the PM you claim you have about binding me (Oh yeah, you didn't claim to have that PM - but if I was Sinlessmoon's target like you claim, you have it), if your flavor matches the flavor in my PM or not.

---

---

Quote from: ToonyMan on December 16, 2013, 09:42:16 pm

Imp - Day 1 attacks were odd

Toonyman:  Can you explain what you mean by odd?  I've been accused of being humorless and being too quiet (recently that one became horribly true) this game, but no one else has called my 'attacks' or posts odd for any other reasons.  I think you want me lynched, and I'd like some proof that it's because you're so sure I'm a Dopp, especially given that you say things like this too:

Quote from: ToonyMan on December 16, 2013, 09:42:16 pm

It's certainly possible Imp is town

Also:

Quote from: ToonyMan on December 16, 2013, 09:42:16 pm

Imp ...currently think they're a dopp because of lack of kill

You keep repeating that, even though it's not the "hard proof" that you claim you think it is.  That's the reason you give for me being your top Scum pick.

Your second Scum pick is because you think that person (Tiruin) is Caz's kidnapper, as a wild guess.  Gosh, wild guess could pick any player.  I call garbage logic.

Third Scum pick (RangerCado) is because of 'defense of Imp', because RangerCado questioned others about why they were suspicious of me.

Ignoring that RangerCado's style appears to be questioning others about others in general:

Quote from: RangerCado on December 03, 2013, 12:39:10 am

And makeinu, you dodged the question by Max there. Even though you corrected this, why do it in the first place?

Quote from: RangerCado on December 03, 2013, 01:07:48 am

And what is the point of your question less vote on Sin?!

Quote from: RangerCado on December 03, 2013, 07:41:14 pm

[b[Persus13:[/b] Is there a reason you would want Tiruin as a player? All you've said is because of the way I worded the question, you wouldn't need to worry about alignment. Why would you want her as someone you could trust through the game?

Max: Take this as defending if you wish, but Tiruin does things like that all the time. I've done it myself once or twice and it can work out to get a reaction. I'm going to meta here, but do you think that doing what she did has no merit for her scum hunting, and if so why? If its just because it could seem like defending, then thats fine, but often people have more than one reason with these things.

There's plenty more quotes of RangerCado asking one player questions about what they've said about another player.  I say Toonyman cherrypicked so he could have something to accuse about that Toonyman felt comfortable with, so Toonyman could have something that looked like a list of Scum-to-Town picks, and that most of this list was thrown together and isn't true.

The rest of his list delves into can't read and non-Scummy, though he lists Caz as third Towniest and a possible Dopp but can't be voted.  Weird reason to list as probable Town.

---

---

I'm too tired to finish this.  Everything else must be very incomplete or skipped entire.

Tiruin, are you actually claiming to be a "heroic guard"?  Are you actually claiming to have guarded me N1?  Are you willing to discuss why you picked me to die for on N1 if it came to that - if you actually are making this paired claim?

Quote from: Persus13 on December 17, 2013, 08:42:40 pm

Imp has answered one of my questions

Persus13, am I missing other questions still?

makinu:

Quote from: makeinu on December 17, 2013, 10:50:24 pm

Here's my problem, and it's not that the Heroic Guard doesn't see if the person was targeted.

It's that this is the second claim to Heroic Guard I've heard so far today, and the other claim, unlike Tiruin's, specifically was Town Heroic Guard (they can be dopp, if I'm reading correctly). And, also, the third Guard claim I've heard today.

I'll let that sink in for a bit.

What?  I searched the topic cause I couldn't find it.  I searched for 'heroic' and I searched for 'guard'.  The only claim I see is Tiruin's.  Quote the other one(s) that you say you see.  I don't see any claim from anyone of being Town heroic guard.

Quote from: makeinu on December 18, 2013, 12:16:17 am

Quote from: Superblackcat on December 17, 2013, 11:41:48 pm

MakeINU Where were the other claims to Guard?

In PMs. Those are allowed this game, remember?

Why the hell would I role-claim on someone else? That's just dumb, to take what trust has been built and toss it on a fire.

Wow.  Just... wow.  Alright.  I'll claim now that no player in this game has sent me a PM.  I'll also claim that I have not sent any player any PMs.  I see in the rules:

Quote from: Mephansteras on November 26, 2013, 12:05:24 pm

Rule on PMs: Private Messages are allowed. However, I must be copied on all PMs. Failure to do so will result in very bad things happening to you.

And I see:

Quote from: Mephansteras on November 26, 2013, 12:05:24 pm

Rules: The medium can freely communicate with Dead characters via PM/Ghost Chat.

Xenozoologist ... The Scientist and all of his captives may freely PM one another

Alien Tech can be passed between players as long as both players agree to the trade. This must be done via PM.

I gather that you have been properly copying to Meph every PM between yourself and another player.

I'm not going to ask you to expose anyone's roles or any other secrets others told you.

But I am going to ask you - makeinu, how many different players have you spoken in PMs with this game?  Did you start any of these conversation(s)?  For the conversations you started, why did you pick the person/people you spoke to and not pick the others?  For the conversations others started with you - what was your reaction upon recieving the first PM from that player/those players?


Also - tell me, you have PMed Caz then, right?  I had not because I had not understood that -every- player could PM -any other player-, except for the specific types of roles and targets specified in the role list.  But you have, correct?  What has Caz said about his abductor?

Superblackcat:

Quote from: Superblackcat on December 17, 2013, 11:41:48 pm

Imp, Sorry about making you be here, or something. But do you have an argument against you being scum?

No argument.  The claim 'You are Scum' by itself is worthless, no matter who says it about whom.  Without reasons to support it, such is an RVS or pressure type of challenge and utterly meaningless except for the reactions it creates in the target and what its use shows about the motives of its user.

Meph:  Please verify that all players may freely PM all other living players?  Once you do so I'm PMing Caz as soon as I see you confirm this is legal.  Caz may be alive or dead, but if he can be PMed I have questions for him.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 2 - [1 REPLACEMENT NEEDED]
Post by: Toaster on December 18, 2013, 11:05:57 am

Superblackcat:

Quote from: Superblackcat on December 18, 2013, 12:22:12 am

Hey Toaster, Might you step it up this game? I'm pretty sure I heard somewhere that you and Jim are the masters of Mafia here... I'm quite sad to see what a master of mafia here is.

What posts thus far do you think has had the most impact towards scum hunting?

I've never claimed to be a master; especially lately.  I will say I'm rarely lynched, but that's not the same as "good as finding scum," which I've never claimed to be.

Are you asking which posts have the most relevant tells or those which are the best hunting?  If the former, look at my posts and if I quote it, it's relevant.  The latter... uhhh... tough call, really.  Jim is pretty good at hunting scum, so his tend to be insightful (though I think he's off the mark over Ranger.)  DarkStar's posts got him lynched- that was pretty impactful.

Quote from: Superblackcat on December 18, 2013, 01:00:06 am

Toaster... What the hell are you doing?

Playing this game called Mafia.  What the hell are you doing?

Quote from: Superblackcat on December 18, 2013, 01:56:41 am

I'm seriously not going to bother with links, please Tiruin, don't force it on me.

It makes your posts harder to read, which makes it harder to get your point across, which makes it harder to convince people of your case.  I certainly can't force you to do it, but do know that the extra effort pays off.

For example, the post I'm quoting is unreadable because it has long tracts of plaintext quotes in it.  I can't figure out what is yours and what isn't.


Makeinu:

Quote from: makeinu on December 18, 2013, 12:55:37 am

No, I don't. Thing is, I can't directly counter your public role claim, nor am I really doing so. I'm just noting that I've got other role claims that counter yours.

No you don't.

Two town Heroic Guards and a third town other guard is a possible- even plausible- role setup.  There is no true counterclaim going on here.

Quote from: makeinu on December 18, 2013, 12:55:37 am

No night kill. Two players role-blocked. One, abducted, unable to speak. The other, out and requesting replacement, and silent.

One of them was scum. Of that there's no doubt.

Caz or Imp. Choose.

I don't see how one HAS to be scum, since there are other possibilities out there, not the least of which is that Caz was the NK target.

And Jim beats me to both those points.

Quote from: makeinu on December 18, 2013, 03:06:19 am

So, they targeted Caz, since that's the only possibility that doesn't end with a dead scum or a dead guard. Which means Caz is Town, if your logic here is correct.

Non-dopp, more accurately.  If there's a Xenozoologist, then there has to be at least one other alien.

Quote from: makeinu on December 18, 2013, 03:06:19 am

Quote

Appearing too towny, (Scumtell): This is where a player can be read right over. They have nothing. They appear incredibly towny because they don't do anything, they don't take any risks. I regular town would take risks of appearing scummy to attack others. Someone 'Appearing too towny' doesn't take those risks, and instead, just kind of go with the flow, and doesn't anger anyone. They point or more or less useless scumtells, either pointed out before, or reworded.

Which, oddly enough, Imp was doing all day D1. Come to think, it's what Toaster is doing as well, still...

Toaster? Oh, Toaster!? Care to comment?

"Too Townie" is a terrible, terrible scumtell.  Among other reasons, what if the person appears very townie because they are actually town?

Actually, the scumtell name and scumtell description you have quoted there don't even match.  "Too Townie" is more like "This person is hunting loud and aggressively, and now it's endgame and they haven't been nightkilled yet.  They must be SCUM!"  The description you have there is more minimum effort, which isn't townie at all.


Tiruin:

Quote from: Tiruin on December 18, 2013, 01:25:09 am

Quote

One of them was scum. Of that there's no doubt.

Caz or Imp. Choose.

No doubt?
How's about doubt that they didn't choose to kill to check on whether there would be other killers?

Okay, Tiruin.  I'd forgive a new player this one, but you're experienced enough to know better.  One, that'd be idiotic of the scum team.  Two, you know full well that Paranormal kill flavor is based on the race of the killer, so other killers would stand out.  Three, they'd also stand out by additional corpses.

Why did you claim, anyway?  Was it just a mistaken understanding* of the rule of your role or did you have some other purpose?


*If so, maybe I'm overestimating your Paranormal knowledge.  Is this your first one?


Imp:

Quote from: Imp on December 18, 2013, 07:13:48 am

Quote from: Mephansteras on November 26, 2013, 12:05:45 pm

•Small Tech
◦Personal Shield: Works once as though guarded by the Guardian. Will also protect against Morningkills.

I haven't had time to read any previous Paranormals.  I don't know what kind of information the target gets if a night or morning kill is eaten by a personal shield.

It's obvious to the killer.  Basically, you attack the target and they don't die.  Flavorwise, there's usually some reason the attack can't continue.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 2 - [1 REPLACEMENT NEEDED]
Post by: Mephansteras on December 18, 2013, 11:38:07 am

The Whiteboard
Imp: makeinu, ToonyMan
Jim Groovester: Persus13, RangerCado
Persus13: Jim Groovester, Tiruin, Toaster
ToonyMan: Imp
Toaster: Superblackcat

---

Day ends ~5pm Pacific Today (About 8 hours)

Quote from: Imp on December 18, 2013, 07:13:48 am

Meph:  Please verify that all players may freely PM all other living players?  Once you do so I'm PMing Caz as soon as I see you confirm this is legal.  Caz may be alive or dead, but if he can be PMed I have questions for him.

Any living player may be PMed freely. However, an Abducted player cannot respond except to their abductor. Nor can a dead one, of course.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 2 - [1 REPLACEMENT NEEDED]
Post by: makeinu on December 18, 2013, 11:47:56 am

Quote from: Imp on December 18, 2013, 07:13:48 am

I should be asleep, I'm dead tired.

Thank you for taking the time to answer anything at all. Despite my assertions of certainty, I'd rather get this right than not.

Quote

I'm not going to ask you to expose anyone's roles or any other secrets others told you.

Thank you. I'm debating making my own role-claim, because it would bolster my arguments, but I can't be certain to what degree that would violate my own agreement to keep confidence. It's a very thin line I'm walking, and I'm asking a lot of trust in return.

Quote

But I am going to ask you - makeinu, how many different players have you spoken in PMs with this game?  Did you start any of these conversation(s)?  For the conversations you started, why did you pick the person/people you spoke to and not pick the others?

More than one, less than all. I started the conversations; as I've stated several times, I'm accustomed to player-to-player PMs as the norm. You guys here aren't; quite the opposite, in fact.

Spoiler: Witness (click to show/hide)

Quote

Quote from: makeinu on December 18, 2013, 12:16:17 am

Quote from: Superblackcat on December 17, 2013, 11:41:48 pm

MakeINU Where were the other claims to Guard?

In PMs. Those are allowed this game, remember?

Wow.  Just... wow.  Alright.  I'll claim now that no player in this game has sent me a PM.  I'll also claim that I have not sent any player any PMs.

Quote

Quote from: Tiruin on December 17, 2013, 09:38:56 pm

Quote from: Imp on December 17, 2013, 06:01:55 pm

I confirm I was blocked last night and put to sleep.  I think that means a psychic warden did it.

Did you or did you not feel the overwhelming presence of an elder god?
Meaning: Chains. Locks. Keys. Metal bars.
Any of them, did you feel?

Great question.  Goes with this one:

Quote from: Persus13 on December 16, 2013, 09:09:24 pm

Hello Toony! So Imp got blocked last night. Any other details you can add (ex. flavor)?

Toonyman has not answered this question, which I also want to know.

Ultimately tells the rest of us nothing. I presume ToonyMan was given the relevant PMs between Sinlessmoon and Meph, and then we're stuck with "he said, she said" when he answers and you counter it. It's a good question to ask, and should be answered, but it won't help in the end.

Quote

Quote from: ToonyMan on December 17, 2013, 09:17:40 am

@Makeinu:

Quote from: makeinu on December 16, 2013, 10:25:34 pm

That's a nice list, ToonyMan, but I still want an answer to this question:

Quote from: makeinu on December 16, 2013, 08:02:10 pm

I'm still curious what your defense would have been without laying a role claim, especially one of such magnitude.

Oh yeah, uh, If I didn't have this nice nugget of information (like if I was a cop who inspected a dead guy) then I would probably be screwed.  Genuine scum-hunting is fine and all, but with such a short time and a lot of suspicion on Sinlessmoon I don't think I would be able to take the heat off without some hard proof.  That's why I'm sort of surprised Sinless would lurk through the day.  In the end, you would probably see me desperately struggling to pull something out of my ass.

I admit I would probably end up role-claiming regardless.  But it would have probably been a non-verifiable one.  If Imp says she wasn't blocked then she is lying.

Toonyman says his/Sinlessmoon having blocked me is "hard proof".  I do not understand what this hard proof is.

Caz was abducted last night. You were blocked. There was no night kill. That doesn't leave terribly many options. You being dopp is actually the easiest explanation to me, and Occam's Razor states that among competing hypotheses, the hypothesis with the fewest assumptions should be selected.

Quote

One thing it appears to prove is that Toonyman is a Psychic Warden.  But why would Toonyman want that proven?  Psychic Wardens are either Town or Dopplegangers, but never aliens if I understand the roles right.

As I understand them as well, that's correct.

Quote

We know we have an abductor role.  All abductors are aliens.  Could Caz have been the Psychic Warden who targeted me?  Psychic Wardens are 'Pure Role-blockers', the action comes before abduction, so this is possible.

Technically, yes, but that involves on my part the assumption that I was lied to. Not an egregious assumption, mind, but one extra thing I have to call into question. And if I'm going to call everything into question, I might just as well fold the hand, and wait out the day.

Quote

I wonder if Sinlessmoon was a Xenozoologist who targeted Caz, and Caz might have been the Warden who targeted me.  Sinlessmoon was doing something.  We know he PMed Meph that he wanted to keep playing, but he apparently didn't want to talk to us in the thread.  Xenozoologists and their abductions can PM each other freely.  Could Caz have told Sinlessmoon what he did night 1?  Would Caz have told him?  If so, Caz I sure hope you didn't tell him anything about the action's flavor.

Quote

makeinu and Toonyman:  Have you read the possible roles completely?  Including the Tech picks?

Could this explain what happened to the night kill, and why no one admitted to having survived a night kill?

Any type of alien with access to small tech could have it, and because of the large tech 'replicator' object, any alien with access to large tech could have it too.  That makes a huge mess of roles and Wincons who could possibly have eaten a Nightkill without dying - but admitting to surviving a nightkill is tantamount to admitting being a guardian, a tough doppelganger, or having had a personal shield (and thus being alien).

makeinu:  Do you disagree with this information?  I assume you 'missed' it when you were reading the OP, but if you want to explain why you disregarded this info I'm eager to hear it.  Given this information, please explain why you say it is absolutely true that one of either Caz or I must be Scum.

Yes, I read that. I disregard it because of what's been claimed to me privately.

How many aliens are you postulating here? Because the Harvester doesn't have a tech slot, it's worth noting.

Quote

Quote

Also - tell me, you have PMed Caz then, right?  I had not because I had not understood that -every- player could PM -any other player-, except for the specific types of roles and targets specified in the role list.  But you have, correct?  What has Caz said about his abductor?

No, because it's my assumption that the abduction means Caz is out of play entirely for the day. I've not seen abduction powers often, but every time I have, that's been the case, so it did not occur to me to ask. And remember, PMs are always authorized where I usually play.

Quote

Meph:  Please verify that all players may freely PM all other living players?  Once you do so I'm PMing Caz as soon as I see you confirm this is legal.  Caz may be alive or dead, but if he can be PMed I have questions for him.

If this is confirmed as allowed, then I'll PM Caz immediately.

PPE: Argle bargle. That's pretty much exactly what I'd figured. I really don't want to role-claim, it blows everything I've done in private up.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 2 - [1 REPLACEMENT NEEDED]
Post by: RangerCado on December 18, 2013, 01:17:19 pm

Jim:

Quote

I don't care, deal with it, world's tiniest violin, world's saddest song, etc. etc.

Have you tried sparring back? It's a lot more interesting than complaining about how I'm being a really big meanie.

So you want me to yell insults towards you about everything about you, and not about you to make things interesting? ...This is a stupid way to make someone crack and you probably know it. And whats your current suspicions on me since you’ve run out of things to throw at me it seems? Also, may I ask why you were accusing me of not answering your questions in a quite colorful manner when you had no questions for me to answer?

Makeinu: How do we know you aren’t lying through your teeth about these PMs? Do we have any reason to trust your claims more than Toony’s and Tiruin’s? Can you tell us who they guarded last night, if at all? And yes, your claiming of 2 other guards talking to you via PM has created WIFOM.

---

Reads List:

-Toaster: Slight scum read. He’s disappeared recently and hasn’t contributed much overall, but nothing scummy comes to mind from his posts.

-Toonyman: Neutral read. I have no idea where to go with this. Sinless didn’t give me anything to work with, and Toony is a middle ground for me right now, despite his claim.

-SuperBlackCat: Slight scum read. I haven’t seen much come from him that is constructive yet, and is now using meta to justify his bandwagoning that he is completely aware of.

-Tiruin: Heavily leaning Town read. I always get a town read from Tiruin, no matter what game I’m in with her. Shes playing the game, helping town, with the only really questionable thing done so far was claiming Heroic Guard.

-Makeinu: Slight scum read. makeinu has been a back and forth for me most of the game so far, his claim of two other guards in the game causing a lot of confusion right now.

-Jim: Scum read. Biased or not, Jim just doesn’t seem to be playing how he normally would, and is being very finnicky about his and others votes, and his scum hunting seems sub-par to me at best. Granted day 1 he had finals, but now… I’m just not getting a good vibe on him.

-Persus: Slight Town read. I may just not being seeing it, but I haven’t seen any scum tells from him, mostly just decent hunting. He is, however, voting back and forth a lot as well… And always the second vote too… hmm…

-Imp: Neutral tell. Good hunting and a player who puts a lot of work into his posts, but getting replaced and all the claims are making it hard to for me to get a definate. Maybe third party?

I’ll probably have another post before day end, and if I missed any questions from someone I would appreciate being told. ciao!

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 2 - [1 REPLACEMENT NEEDED]
Post by: makeinu on December 18, 2013, 01:30:57 pm

Quote from: RangerCado on December 18, 2013, 01:17:19 pm

Makeinu: How do we know you aren’t lying through your teeth about these PMs? Do we have any reason to trust your claims more than Toony’s and Tiruin’s? Can you tell us who they guarded last night, if at all? And yes, your claiming of 2 other guards talking to you via PM has created WIFOM.

You don't. It comes down to believability and trust.

I'm awaiting a PM response before I decide what else to do, including answering your questions.

Also, nothing on Caz at all? You've all of D1 to base a read on, so what's your take there?

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 2 - [1 REPLACEMENT NEEDED]
Post by: Imp on December 18, 2013, 03:10:42 pm

Quote from: makeinu on December 18, 2013, 11:47:56 am

Quote

But I am going to ask you - makeinu, how many different players have you spoken in PMs with this game?  Did you start any of these conversation(s)?  For the conversations you started, why did you pick the person/people you spoke to and not pick the others?

More than one, less than all. I started the conversations; as I've stated several times, I'm accustomed to player-to-player PMs as the norm. You guys here aren't; quite the opposite, in fact.

I note that you elected to state that you would not answer the first question.  Thank you for actually answering the second.  You did not say anything about the third, so I ask again:

Why did you pick the person/people you spoke to and not pick the others?

Quote from: makeinu on December 18, 2013, 11:47:56 am

Quote

Quote from: Tiruin on December 17, 2013, 09:38:56 pm

Quote from: Imp on December 17, 2013, 06:01:55 pm

I confirm I was blocked last night and put to sleep.  I think that means a psychic warden did it.

Did you or did you not feel the overwhelming presence of an elder god?
Meaning: Chains. Locks. Keys. Metal bars.
Any of them, did you feel?

Great question.  Goes with this one:

Quote from: Persus13 on December 16, 2013, 09:09:24 pm

Hello Toony! So Imp got blocked last night. Any other details you can add (ex. flavor)?

Toonyman has not answered this question, which I also want to know.

Ultimately tells the rest of us nothing. I presume ToonyMan was given the relevant PMs between Sinlessmoon and Meph, and then we're stuck with "he said, she said" when he answers and you counter it. It's a good question to ask, and should be answered, but it won't help in the end.

You may be mistaken about what flavor claims do and do not tell others.  Meph is running this game; Meph's games, at least Supernatural, and I will confirm my N1 PM in this game too, the games and their PMs do indeed contain significant flavor.

S6, 2 fake claims were made, both were decidedly vague/utterly absent about the flavor used.  All we all can do, if Toonyman does or does not provide the flavor he claims he should have, is see if it is believable or not - that is something a player like yourself perhaps cannot evaluate through lack of experience in Meph's games.

All I can do, if Toonyman does provide that flavor, is then provide what I got to confirm the match, as I confirmed that I was indeed blocked and put to sleep.

Quote from: makeinu on December 18, 2013, 11:47:56 am

How many aliens are you postulating here? Because the Harvester doesn't have a tech slot, it's worth noting.

If there's a Xenozoologist then an absolute minimum of 2; there has to be at least one for the abductor to have a chance to fill their Wincon and the abductor is one too.

Quote from: makeinu on December 18, 2013, 11:47:56 am

Despite my assertions of certainty, I'd rather get this right than not.

I'm debating making my own role-claim, because it would bolster my arguments, but I can't be certain to what degree that would violate my own agreement to keep confidence. It's a very thin line I'm walking, and I'm asking a lot of trust in return.

Quote

We know we have an abductor role.  All abductors are aliens.  Could Caz have been the Psychic Warden who targeted me?  Psychic Wardens are 'Pure Role-blockers', the action comes before abduction, so this is possible.

Technically, yes, but that involves on my part the assumption that I was lied to. Not an egregious assumption, mind, but one extra thing I have to call into question. And if I'm going to call everything into question, I might just as well fold the hand, and wait out the day.

Quote

makeinu and Toonyman:  Have you read the possible roles completely?  Including the Tech picks?

makeinu:  Do you disagree with this information?  I assume you 'missed' it when you were reading the OP, but if you want to explain why you disregarded this info I'm eager to hear it.  Given this information, please explain why you say it is absolutely true that one of either Caz or I must be Scum.

Yes, I read that. I disregard it because of what's been claimed to me privately.

PPE: Argle bargle. That's pretty much exactly what I'd figured. I really don't want to role-claim, it blows everything I've done in private up.

makeinu:  You have blown my mind in multiple ways.  First off, given your behavior in this thread that we call can see, from your early posting weirdness to your later play - 'inconsistant behavior' is a neutral way to accurately describe your posts in this game.  You are saying that not one, but -two- other players have decided to trust you enough to tell you their roles through a private, off the thread means.

Furthermore, in order to believe you I have to believe that you managed to convince -at least two- people to privately tell you their roles.  And that there's something in those private conversations that makes you feel like -you- publicly roleclaiming is going to compromise your agreement to keep confidence - you believe that -your- roleclaim will compromise the roleclaims of others.

That seems greatly unlikely to me, especially given that no one has chosen to support your claim as yet, unless you and they are somehow on the same non-Town faction and thus have proof from Meph that you are indeed allies.

I'm going to point out to you that your

Quote from: makeinu on December 18, 2013, 11:47:56 am

More than one, less than all.

count of who you have spoken with doesn't actually do much to hide who you have been speaking with - unless those players have also been obfuscating on the thread itself.  I have claimed directly I am not one of them.  Tiruin expressed confusion about 'guard' and you're nearly challenging her 'am I roleclaiming?' statement with your claimed PM-gained information - so she isn't one of them.  Superblackcat talked about searching the thread for guard - he probably isn't one of them.  Rangercado is asking about the possibility of you lying about them - she's probably not one of them.  You've stated Caz isn't one of them (and Meph confirms Caz cannot be one).

That only leaves

Toaster - Posted after your PM claim, didn't react to your statement about PMs at all, plus he's your claimed Top Town pick.

Jim - His only comment about it was

Quote from: Jim Groovester on December 18, 2013, 01:45:07 am

Don't expect people to fall in line with what you're arguing because of unknown claims exchanged in private.

Nothing confirmed, nothing denied, the 'unknown claims' statement only notes that to those out of the know, it's unknown.

Sinlessmoon/Toonyman - Sinlessmoon was useless on the thread itself; Toonyman has claimed to be a Psychic Warden on the thread and hasn't posted since you started talking about PMs.

Persus13 - hasn't posted since you started talking about PMs.

---

---

---

Toonyman:  I've taken my vote off of you because my concerns about makeinu exceed my concerns about you, I have no time left, and the day nears its end.  I want your flavor publicly posted and I hope you can do this before end of day and with enough time left that I have a chance to verify it with mine.

In any case, I'll post my PM's flavor before end of day, as close to the end as possible if Toonyman has not yet posted his.  It's possible that work will require me to simply 'drop a post' as fast as I can without having time to read anything posted since this thread.  I can't gaurentee being around and watching to help prevent or break a tie if a compromise vote needs to be made.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 2 - [1 REPLACEMENT NEEDED]
Post by: Jim Groovester on December 18, 2013, 03:30:56 pm

I'm going to be out and won't be able to make a post before the deadline.

Vote Persus13, he is bandwagoning scum.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 2 - [1 REPLACEMENT NEEDED]
Post by: RangerCado on December 18, 2013, 03:36:15 pm

Quote from: makeinu on December 18, 2013, 01:30:57 pm

Quote from: RangerCado on December 18, 2013, 01:17:19 pm

Makeinu: How do we know you aren’t lying through your teeth about these PMs? Do we have any reason to trust your claims more than Toony’s and Tiruin’s? Can you tell us who they guarded last night, if at all? And yes, your claiming of 2 other guards talking to you via PM has created WIFOM.

You don't. It comes down to believability and trust.

I'm awaiting a PM response before I decide what else to do, including answering your questions.

Also, nothing on Caz at all? You've all of D1 to base a read on, so what's your take there?

Null read on Caz. I didn't get much information from him and was hoping to do so today until he was abducted/harvested/combat camoed.

Imp:

Quote

Rangercado is asking about the possibility of you lying about them - she's probably not one of them.

Although I have wondered what it would be like to be a girl at times, and usually play female characters in games, I am in fact male.

Jim: So your asking us to band wagon on someone for band wagonning? ...Nah, my vote stays on you.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 2 - [1 REPLACEMENT NEEDED]
Post by: Jim Groovester on December 18, 2013, 03:40:31 pm

A better vote than voting a guy because he was A BIG FAT JERK.

Which isn't even a unique of me to this game.

Grow a backbone.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 2 - [1 REPLACEMENT NEEDED]
Post by: RangerCado on December 18, 2013, 03:43:05 pm

Only part of my vote, and why don't you grow a heart then too? (And I now am going to ignore any and all insults from Jim.)

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 2 - [1 REPLACEMENT NEEDED]
Post by: Toaster on December 18, 2013, 03:45:52 pm

Jim:  Don't be a jerk, jerk.

Jim is right about voting Persus, though.  His vote record (as I went over (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=133676.msg4837587#msg4837587)) is poor.  It doesn't help that he jumps right on Imp (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=133676.msg4842120#msg4842120) after Toony's claim then jumps to Jim for... reasons I really can't pick out.


Persus:  What exactly is your case on Jim?

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 2 - [1 REPLACEMENT NEEDED]
Post by: Jim Groovester on December 18, 2013, 04:11:53 pm

Getting a buffer against vote shenanigans wouldn't be a bad idea either.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 2 - [1 REPLACEMENT NEEDED]
Post by: makeinu on December 18, 2013, 05:01:00 pm

PFP because I probably won't be back online before the day ends.

No, flavor counter-claims in this case manifestly do not tell a damn thing.

Hypothetical:

ToonyMan posts:

Quote

flavor text chocolate banana

Imp counter-posts:

Quote

hang ToonyMan, flavor text bacon!

Or:

Quote

agree flavor text chocolate banana

And what do we know in the end? Nothing more, because it then comes down to "I trust one, or the other, or both, or neither."

So how is that any different from my claims?

Oh, wait, I can at least quote the PMs with other players if I choose. You can't quote Meph's PM.  So yours is perfectly unverifiable. And ultimately so is mine, except that I can leave in the original "feel" of the message I received, if I so chose, to reveal the player at the other end without naming them.

Which I won't do, because I promised I wouldn't.

I give up. I'm right, I'm wrong, doesn't matter anymore. I believe what I believe based on the data I have and logical analysis of it. And now I'm right back to defending myself.

---

Toaster: Persus' case against Jim is "he feels scummy". Jim's case against Persus is, to me, equally thin. Frankly, they're acting like a damn married couple. And Persus is not acting like he was in Sprint, the only place I have to compare his behavior against, where he was scum.

Ironically, I believe they're both Town.

---

Role claim:

I'm a Town Detective. Last night, I found a Harvester with Mind Stealer power. They had targeted Caz. When I approached them, after some wrangling, I got this out of them (paraphrased):

Quote

Caz isn't a dopp. He was actually a town Heroic Guard.

After TheDarkStar was lynched and flipped dopp, I wagered that town would be a better bet to side with.

I targeted Caz because I thought he might've been some kind of nasty third party. I did it partly because I was really curious and wanted to know, partly to disable him, and partly because it would have been more interesting than abducting somebody I thought was town so that I didn't end up dead during the night with a wincon I didn't really want to have.

Clarification was asked about that last bit, and answered to the effect that it was more fun to try and find a crazy third party role, even though it meant insta-lose in the event they were NK'd last night. The easy, safe, choice was find a strong Town tell and abduct them. Fun was chosen, and then it turned out, wow, crazy Town role, who saw THAT coming, amirite?

I agreed to work with them, and not out them, so long as they continued to help the Town. So far, all indications are that they are doing just that.

Another I PM'd with claimed Observant Guard, Town presumed, guarded the player I targeted as Detective, and their target wasn't targeted for a kill in the night.

So, Caz, Town Heroic Guard claimed, guarded no one, because Mind Stealer abduction.

Unnamed Mind Stealer claiming to want to side Town because they're likelier to win that way, because of TheDarkStar's role flip.

Tiruin, Heroic Guard claim, Town presumed but not claimed, guarded Imp, who was also role-blocked. No kill attempt.

Third, unnamed, Observant Guard claim, Town presumed but not claimed, guarded the Mind Stealer. No kill attempt.

Just in case I don't see you all in the morning, it's been fun.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 2 - [1 REPLACEMENT NEEDED]
Post by: Superblackcat on December 18, 2013, 06:13:10 pm

Quote

-SuperBlackCat: Slight scum read. I haven’t seen much come from him that is constructive yet, and is now using meta to justify his bandwagoning that he is completely aware of.

RangerCado. Where did I use meta to justify my bandwagoning? I used meta for 2 purposes thus far. The first in an attack against Persus, pointed his votes out in his two games he's played, one as scum, one as town. The votes were surprisingly differently styled... And He seems to be styling his votes after scum right now.

Secondly to talk about "Players who appear too towny/doesn't have any enemies". This would be Squill, or Persus. As you could see in Sprint. No one said anything bad about Persus... except for Tiruin, his own partner... So?/

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 2 - [1 REPLACEMENT NEEDED]
Post by: Persus13 on December 18, 2013, 06:31:15 pm

Tiruin: What's your case against me? Why do you think I am scum?

Quote from: makeinu on December 17, 2013, 10:50:24 pm

TheDarkStar was acting pretty scummy, I think anyone would agree with that. So, that's a WIFOM argument, but let's take it on anyway. Here's the sequence of events changing the vote board D1:

I was going to argue with this, but then I remembered that RangerCado was attacking DarkStar for part of D1. However, I know if I was Imp and scum, I just would have continued voting Toaster.

Quote from: Superblackcat on December 17, 2013, 11:41:48 pm

Persus:

Anyways, I'm quite curious as to why you manage to jump onto bandwagons that are started... every single time.

You mean besides me voting Max D1, and Imp D2, and returning to Imp when new information surfaced D2 and then voting Jim, which was a vote only one other person was doing?

Quote from: Superblackcat on December 17, 2013, 11:41:48 pm

Also, just pulling in METAs here... During Sprint, d1, every single vote, save the 1st one, was jumping on a bandwagon. You were the 2nd person on a person every single time.

You're right that the first vote of mine was someone no one else had voted (Tiruin), and the first vote of mine that mattered was on someone else who wasn't being voted (elephant parade), but In that game I led the Pufferfish lynch before switching to vote Tiruin (who no one else was voting), then I went back on the Pufferfish lynch. Your meta is wrong. In fact, I only bandwagoned once in that game, and that was on someone I had stated that I believed to be scum multiple times.

Quote from: Superblackcat on December 17, 2013, 11:41:48 pm

In BMXLIII: You jumped in a vote on RPG, He was not yet voted, jumped on bandwagon kleril, but jumped off much sooner than other, and onto Darvi, who was also not yet voted... Jumped back to kleril,

That also wasn't bandwagoning. I actually was voting Kleril for reasons other than Imp that game.

Quote from: Superblackcat on December 17, 2013, 11:41:48 pm

It seems to me, in the games in which he is not scum, he is much more likely to jump off band wagons, and form his own pressures.

That's actually not true. I do that regardless of whether or not. And hopping of my vote to vote lurkers for inactivity midday is a null tell, as it's part of my playstyle and something I do regardless of whether I'm town or not.

Quote from: Superblackcat on December 18, 2013, 01:00:06 am

Also, his reason towards Jim is... That Jim is voting Persus himself. And then... He goes back and takes some Jim posts, that he doesn't like I guess? He asks questions, argues against those posts... and votes Jim himself. Not a very convincing reasoning at all.

I've stated that I've considered Jim scummy because he was acting differently from D2 than from D1 since early D2. He's also being hypocritical slightly for voting for bandwagoning when that's what he's doing himself. Your comments on my taking posts of Jim from D2 is a baseless accusation that seems meant to make me seem very scummy. I take issue with that. I've actually had a folder in my bookmarks of the posts I mentioned to question Jim on when I finally got around to pressing him.

Quote from: Superblackcat on December 18, 2013, 01:00:06 am

His reason towards Sin was complete bullshit and bandwagon, I will not bother to summarize it.

This is not only rude, it's not scumhunting. YOu simply state that my reasons are stupid without bothering to mention what they are.

Quote from: Superblackcat on December 18, 2013, 01:00:06 am

His reason towards Imp: Psychic Warden claim. Uhhh... I'd call it bandwagoning. It hard to attack the Persus + Persus has no reason other than the Toony's reason. If this isn't bandwagoning... what is?

Yes, how dare I vote Imp when someone reveals information that means she might be scum and when I already had voted Imp before because I thought she was scummy. That's means I must be scum.

But seriously, I have stated multiple times over Day 2 that I consider Imp scummy. I even listed her as my top 3 scumpicks when you asked me about them. If someone roleclaims against someone else, why shouldn't I vote Imp?

Quote from: makeinu on December 18, 2013, 01:16:33 am

Caz is Abducted.
Imp is Guarded.
Imp is role-blocked by a Psychic Warden.
Caz is also targeted for night kill.

Imp can't have been targeted for night kill if Tiruin is telling the truth, because Tiruin would be dead otherwise. And nothing Imp said yesterday gives me reason to believe the dopps would have viewed her as a threat. Neither did Caz, but at least if he (she? I can't remember, I'm sorry) had been the target, I assume the Abduction would stop that from happening.

You're leaving out a possibility. Caz and Imp could have been NK targets. They could also have been the chosen scum to carry out the kills.

Quote from: Jim Groovester on December 18, 2013, 01:45:07 am

Quote from: Persus13 on December 17, 2013, 08:42:40 pm

I'd like to throw something out ot everyone.

Yeah, just throw it out there like I didn't already.

Yeah, but I used a quote.

Quote from: Jim Groovester on December 18, 2013, 01:45:07 am

Quote from: Persus13 on December 17, 2013, 08:42:40 pm

Okay, thanks, I'll keep that in mind for when I'm scum.

I like your subtle town claim.

That was subtle?

Quote from: Jim Groovester on December 18, 2013, 01:45:07 am

Quote from: Persus13 on December 17, 2013, 09:26:47 pm

Hey Jim, since I've decided against Imp for the present, and Caz isn't here, it's your turn to be questioned.

Oh, nice. I'm sure this has nothing to do with my recent vote on you.

[sarcasm]Yes, because it's not like I've been saying that you seem scummy since almost the beginning of D2.[/sarcasm] Oh, wait, I have.

Quote from: Jim Groovester on December 18, 2013, 01:45:07 am

Quote from: Persus13 on December 17, 2013, 09:26:47 pm

So what is the proper response? Does this instantly mean that someone is scum if they refuse to be rattled?

The proper town response is to be unfazed. Panicky people are scummy, and panicky people because of dumb insinuation are also scummy.

What's your point with bringing this up?

So why is being panicky a scumtell? Panicky people can be town or scum. And no one can tell how serious your dumb accusation is. How successful has this been? It hasn't been successful from what I've seen of it.

Quote from: Jim Groovester on December 18, 2013, 01:45:07 am

Quote from: Persus13 on December 17, 2013, 09:26:47 pm

Quote from: Jim Groovester on December 12, 2013, 12:31:08 pm

If you had said that you weren't a dopp to begin with without trying to explain it too much I probably would've looked elsewhere.

Isn't claiming that your town supposed to be a bad thing?

It's more about denying being a dopp than claiming town when challenged with dumb insinuation.

Okay, it's just I was remembering Makeinu being attacked for claiming town.

Quote from: Jim Groovester on December 18, 2013, 01:45:07 am

Quote from: Persus13 on December 17, 2013, 09:26:47 pm

What's your problem with people not voting at the beginning of days?

My problem is with people not voting suspects.

But when I vote my suspects it's bandwagoning even though I've stated my suspects before others voted them?

Quote from: Jim Groovester on December 18, 2013, 01:45:07 am

Quote from: Persus13 on December 17, 2013, 09:26:47 pm

I believe Imp was referring to this:

You're probably right.

Why are you bringing it up, though?

Because you never answered her questions, or acknowledged that you didn't and explain why.

Quote from: Jim Groovester on December 18, 2013, 01:45:07 am

Quote from: Persus13 on December 17, 2013, 09:26:47 pm

Your summary isn't working. I don't understand it.

Okay.

Is there a point here?

I was trying to understand if there was a point to the summary and the post it was trying to summarize and failed.

Quote from: Jim Groovester on December 18, 2013, 01:45:07 am

Quote from: Persus13 on December 17, 2013, 09:26:47 pm

How is this the correct response? I would fail to see how this helps you discover scum.

It only helps if they give the incorrect response, which happens occasionally.

This makes it worthwhile to try.

Okay, as long as the correct response doesn't automatically mean they're town.

Quote from: Jim Groovester on December 18, 2013, 01:45:07 am

Quote from: Persus13 on December 17, 2013, 09:26:47 pm

Finally, you've seen me as scum since you watched the BM Sprint game. Did you think I was scum, and did I ever bandwagon someone?

Ehhhh, not really. I didn't pay much attention, or any, to the game and I didn't go back once the game was over and take down notes on people's meta.

Than what is my meta?

Quote from: Jim Groovester on December 18, 2013, 01:45:07 am

Quote from: Persus13 on December 17, 2013, 09:26:47 pm

So what happened to your case on RangerCado anyway? You said you were leaning scum on him and then stopped talking about him. Was it because no one else voted him?

I ran out of things to press him over. He's been doing a not terrible job of being active and questioning people since then.

Ah okay, than who are your other suspects. You suspected Ranger and then dropped him for me. Who else is your suspect?

Quote from: Jim Groovester on December 18, 2013, 01:45:07 am

You jumped back to Imp when ToonyMan claimed, and then you had a reversal of your opinion as soon as there were people willing to argue against the idea of Imp being scum. You are jumping on votes of most convenience, and if that isn't bandwagoning then I don't know what is.

So what your saying is don't vote suspects when other people say they have information. That sounds like an idea. I would hardly call any person I've voted that isn't Sinlessmoon a vote of convenience.

Quote from: Jim Groovester on December 18, 2013, 01:45:07 am

State your case on me. I have no idea what you're voting me for and I have no idea what feasible purpose you have for all those posts you brought up.

Your D2 play has seemed to me very different from your D1 play. You were pursuing a case on RangerCado, but that disappeared into thin air, and then you started attacking me after others grew suspicious of me. That seems hypocritical to me.

I'll hopefully post more later if I have time.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 2 - [1 REPLACEMENT NEEDED]
Post by: ToonyMan on December 18, 2013, 06:45:14 pm

Sorry I was a bit sidetracked today.  I do have a more detailed flavor post since Meph gives me everything Sinless received.

In my own words:

I sit at a table, a large blue candle in front of me and a bronze chain in my hands.  I read from the Great Book on Psychic Wardening and incant the Ritual of Subdual on Imp.  Slowly, I can feel chains unwrap from myself and ensnare Imp.  The chains tighten and I can feel her spirit fighting back, but it's no use and she is trapped, the Ritual draining her strength.  She won't be doing anything tonight.  My book actually worked, yay!

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 2 - [1 REPLACEMENT NEEDED]
Post by: ToonyMan on December 18, 2013, 06:49:27 pm

Quote from: makeinu on December 18, 2013, 05:01:00 pm

Role claim:
I'm a Town Detective. Last night, I found a Harvester with Mind Stealer power. They had targeted Caz. When I approached them, after some wrangling, I got this out of them (paraphrased):

Quote

Caz isn't a dopp. He was actually a town Heroic Guard.
After TheDarkStar was lynched and flipped dopp, I wagered that town would be a better bet to side with.
I targeted Caz because I thought he might've been some kind of nasty third party. I did it partly because I was really curious and wanted to know, partly to disable him, and partly because it would have been more interesting than abducting somebody I thought was town so that I didn't end up dead during the night with a wincon I didn't really want to have.

Clarification was asked about that last bit, and answered to the effect that it was more fun to try and find a crazy third party role, even though it meant insta-lose in the event they were NK'd last night. The easy, safe, choice was find a strong Town tell and abduct them. Fun was chosen, and then it turned out, wow, crazy Town role, who saw THAT coming, amirite?
I agreed to work with them, and not out them, so long as they continued to help the Town. So far, all indications are that they are doing just that.
Another I PM'd with claimed Observant Guard, Town presumed, guarded the player I targeted as Detective, and their target wasn't targeted for a kill in the night.
So, Caz, Town Heroic Guard claimed, guarded no one, because Mind Stealer abduction.
Unnamed Mind Stealer claiming to want to side Town because they're likelier to win that way, because of TheDarkStar's role flip.
Tiruin, Heroic Guard claim, Town presumed but not claimed, guarded Imp, who was also role-blocked. No kill attempt.
Third, unnamed, Observant Guard claim, Town presumed but not claimed, guarded the Mind Stealer. No kill attempt.
Just in case I don't see you all in the morning, it's been fun.

Wait what, you PM'd other players?  Is that allowed??

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 2 - [1 REPLACEMENT NEEDED]
Post by: RangerCado on December 18, 2013, 07:11:22 pm

Quote from: ToonyMan on December 18, 2013, 06:49:27 pm

Quote from: makeinu on December 18, 2013, 05:01:00 pm

Role claim:
I'm a Town Detective. Last night, I found a Harvester with Mind Stealer power. They had targeted Caz. When I approached them, after some wrangling, I got this out of them (paraphrased):

Quote

Caz isn't a dopp. He was actually a town Heroic Guard.
After TheDarkStar was lynched and flipped dopp, I wagered that town would be a better bet to side with.
I targeted Caz because I thought he might've been some kind of nasty third party. I did it partly because I was really curious and wanted to know, partly to disable him, and partly because it would have been more interesting than abducting somebody I thought was town so that I didn't end up dead during the night with a wincon I didn't really want to have.

Clarification was asked about that last bit, and answered to the effect that it was more fun to try and find a crazy third party role, even though it meant insta-lose in the event they were NK'd last night. The easy, safe, choice was find a strong Town tell and abduct them. Fun was chosen, and then it turned out, wow, crazy Town role, who saw THAT coming, amirite?
I agreed to work with them, and not out them, so long as they continued to help the Town. So far, all indications are that they are doing just that.
Another I PM'd with claimed Observant Guard, Town presumed, guarded the player I targeted as Detective, and their target wasn't targeted for a kill in the night.
So, Caz, Town Heroic Guard claimed, guarded no one, because Mind Stealer abduction.
Unnamed Mind Stealer claiming to want to side Town because they're likelier to win that way, because of TheDarkStar's role flip.
Tiruin, Heroic Guard claim, Town presumed but not claimed, guarded Imp, who was also role-blocked. No kill attempt.
Third, unnamed, Observant Guard claim, Town presumed but not claimed, guarded the Mind Stealer. No kill attempt.
Just in case I don't see you all in the morning, it's been fun.

Wait what, you PM'd other players?  Is that allowed??

It is as has been confirmed twice now by Meph, and Player's quoting the OP post.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 2 - [1 REPLACEMENT NEEDED]
Post by: Persus13 on December 18, 2013, 07:50:49 pm

Quote from: Superblackcat on December 18, 2013, 01:56:41 am

Persus' reason against Sin was... He is lurking=deadweight... Now, if you will look back to Jim's response to that. "If you vote someone for lurking, but not actually for them being scummy, you are not scum hunting" or something along those lines.

So you're either parroting Jim's argument or you're saying I'm copying my reasons from Jim. The former is scummy, and the latter is not true.

Quote from: Imp on December 18, 2013, 07:13:48 am

Quote from: Persus13 on December 17, 2013, 08:42:40 pm

Imp has answered one of my questions

Persus13, am I missing other questions still?

I'd prefer a response to your question about me being fixated on you. I also wanted examples of Toaster not answering a question.

Quote from: Toaster on December 18, 2013, 03:45:52 pm

Persus:  What exactly is your case on Jim?

Read my posts about it. Also, you're wrong about me. I'm much more devious when I'm scum.

Quote from: Jim Groovester on December 18, 2013, 04:11:53 pm

Getting a buffer against vote shenanigans wouldn't be a bad idea either.

Because you want to make sure you mislynch.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 2 - [1 REPLACEMENT NEEDED]
Post by: Persus13 on December 18, 2013, 07:54:36 pm

Since it looks like I'm going to be lynched, I might as well post some things.

First of, I'm going to role claim. I am this guy:

Quote from: makeinu on December 18, 2013, 05:01:00 pm

Third, unnamed, Observant Guard claim, Town presumed but not claimed, guarded the Mind Stealer. No kill attempt.

Makeinu's contacted me with a PM early D2, and we discussed our suspicions of people because at the time our scum lists looked very similar. We also exchanged Night action information.

My current reads on people:
RangerCado-Null, leaning town. Seems to be doing a decent job, but not heavily involved.
Jim Groovestar-possible scum, for multiple reasons, almost all I've stated, including different D2 play, and hypocrisy.
Toaster: Has seemed town so far, although didn't vote Darkstar.
SBC- Has seemed majorly scummy to me since his criticisms of me have either been based on wrong meta or have essentially parroted what Jim has argued. Max seemed scummy to me as well.
Caz-possible scum. Something happened to Dopp Nightkill, and was acting scummy D1.
Tiruin-Has a tendency to vote scum when scum. She's voting me right now, so town? But she also has failed to explain why she thinks I'm scum and why she isn't paying attention to me at all.
Toonyman-Null.
Makeinu-Could easily be scum, Seems convinced Caz is town by the word of his abductor, which I think is too flimsy.
Imp-Seemed like her play was different this game. Was blocked last night which could explain the lack of NK.

My advice for tomorrow. Caz, SBC and Jim are all people I think are good scum candidates. my top choice at the moment however is SBC or Caz. If Caz is scum, I'm pretty sure Jim will be scum then.

Oh, and one last tidbit of information:
Last Night I protected Jim. He's the Mind Stealer.

I'd like responses to my questions even though I'm about to die, too please.

Goodbye guys.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 2 - [1 REPLACEMENT NEEDED]
Post by: Imp on December 18, 2013, 07:58:23 pm

I have scanned the thread.  I have questions about makeinu's post, especially about how/why makeinu sent a PM to the observant guard who guarded the harvester.  Since no kill attempt appears to have happened, and that's what observant guards see, right?  Not detective investigations, and a detective wouldn't notice the guard, I assume when inspecting the target being guarded.  In S players being guarded were informed they were being guarded by a flavor PM of their interaction, even without an attack.  I don't know if that happens in P too.  I was not informed about being guarded, however being unconscious may have prevented me from meeting my guard, if I was guarded.  I have other questions but no time to type them.

For my PM, I felt chains wrapping around me, I struggled but that seemed to bind me more completely.  Rapidly I lost the ability to move and collapsed to the floor.  I felt my energy drain and everything went dark.  I woke with a terrible headache.  Unamusingly IRL I was quite sick and had a migraine at the start of D2 play, life should not imitate art like this.

I do believe Toonyman is probably telling the truth about being Warden and targeting me, especially with makinu's claim to have identified the harvester who abducted and identified Caz.  This is really confusing and I don't have time to properly read it yet, that'll happen sometime before D3.  I still need a replacement but I'll try to be active until that can happen.

Persus13's play looks very similar to me to how it did in S6, where he was Town.  It bothers me that Persus tends to be what I think of as a 'bouncing ball', he changes his vote pretty freely and frequently seems to react to pressure about how he is using his vote.

It's Scummy, but it's also Persus, even when he's Town.  Jim and Toaster also played in S6.  Neither really focused on Persus13's 'bouncing ball' voting then, though Jim did persistently vote Persus and not scumhunt him, just 'rest his vote' on Persus until he shifted it to someone else who he identified as Scummy.  That bugged me too, and I talked to Jim about it, but the questions were not answered.  Jim was Town that game though.  But Persus's play this game looks a lot like Persus's play S6.  I don't know;  I don't have time to read and think and type.  We're not tied, so I'm not changing my vote yet.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 2 - [1 REPLACEMENT NEEDED]
Post by: makeinu on December 18, 2013, 08:00:59 pm

Unvote

vote Jim Groovester

I'd rather no lynch than mislynch.



If rat

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 2 - [1 REPLACEMENT NEEDED]
Post by: Jim Groovester on December 18, 2013, 08:02:51 pm

Don't be a fucking idiot.

A lynch is better than a no lynch.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 2 - [1 REPLACEMENT NEEDED]
Post by: Persus13 on December 18, 2013, 08:03:28 pm

Makeinu, WHat are you doing?

Unvote

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 2 - [1 REPLACEMENT NEEDED]
Post by: makeinu on December 18, 2013, 08:04:58 pm

Trying to save someone I believe to be town.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 2 - [1 REPLACEMENT NEEDED]
Post by: Persus13 on December 18, 2013, 08:06:14 pm

Yeah, but you won't accomplish anything besides a repeat of yesterday. If I die today, then you guys will be able to move on.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 2 - [1 REPLACEMENT NEEDED]
Post by: Jim Groovester on December 18, 2013, 08:06:29 pm

I think he's scum.

And last minute vote gaming is a terrible, terrible fucking idea. Nobody who's town has any business doing it.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 2 - [1 REPLACEMENT NEEDED]
Post by: Persus13 on December 18, 2013, 08:06:46 pm

EBWOP:
Repeat of today.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 2 - [1 REPLACEMENT NEEDED]
Post by: Persus13 on December 18, 2013, 08:07:11 pm

Quote from: Jim Groovester on December 18, 2013, 08:06:29 pm

I think he's scum.

And last minute vote gaming is a terrible, terrible fucking idea. Nobody who's town has any business doing it.

Scum who just let himself die?

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 2 - [1 REPLACEMENT NEEDED]
Post by: makeinu on December 18, 2013, 08:08:57 pm

Quote from: Jim Groovester on December 18, 2013, 08:06:29 pm

I think he's scum.

I don't.

Quote

And last minute vote gaming is a terrible, terrible fucking idea. Nobody who's town has any business doing it.

Who appointed you the final arbiter of what is and isn't proper fucking Town behavior?


Doesn't matter anyway now, with his vote removed from you. I still think Imp is scum.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 2 - [1 REPLACEMENT NEEDED]
Post by: Imp on December 18, 2013, 08:11:32 pm

We're on overtime.  If I had to choose between a Jim lynch and a Persus lynch.  Hard call.  Jim is identified as a harvester, by Persus, yet Persus was voting for him.  I would vote Jim rather than Persus but we're in overtime, there's no guarantee Persus can restore his vote in time.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 2 - [1 REPLACEMENT NEEDED]
Post by: Persus13 on December 18, 2013, 08:12:43 pm

Jim

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 2 - [1 REPLACEMENT NEEDED]
Post by: Jim Groovester on December 18, 2013, 08:13:16 pm

Ah, nice to see the last minute scummy bullshit rear it's head again.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 2 - [1 REPLACEMENT NEEDED]
Post by: Imp on December 18, 2013, 08:13:29 pm

Jim

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 2 - [1 REPLACEMENT NEEDED]
Post by: Persus13 on December 18, 2013, 08:14:08 pm

If you're not a alien dopp Jim, I'm sorry Jim.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 2 - [1 REPLACEMENT NEEDED]
Post by: Persus13 on December 18, 2013, 08:15:14 pm

But I doubt that you haven't fallen to the Dopp side.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 2 - [1 REPLACEMENT NEEDED]
Post by: Imp on December 18, 2013, 08:15:35 pm

There's all kinds of weird in this game.  I hope I get the time over N2 to really study this thread.  What a game to have to replace out of.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 2 - [1 REPLACEMENT NEEDED]
Post by: makeinu on December 18, 2013, 08:16:28 pm

Quote from: Persus13 on December 18, 2013, 08:14:08 pm

If you're not a alien dopp Jim, I'm sorry Jim.

Unvote.

HE'S NOT.

God. Am I the only one that sees the potential of that role for the Town? Why the hell do you think I kept it hidden?

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 2 - [1 REPLACEMENT NEEDED]
Post by: Jim Groovester on December 18, 2013, 08:17:11 pm

Welp, Imp it is then.

Come on, makeinu, you know you want to.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 2 - [1 REPLACEMENT NEEDED]
Post by: Persus13 on December 18, 2013, 08:17:52 pm

Quote from: makeinu on December 18, 2013, 08:16:28 pm

Quote from: Persus13 on December 18, 2013, 08:14:08 pm

If you're not a alien dopp Jim, I'm sorry Jim.

Unvote.

HE'S NOT.

God. Am I the only one that sees the potential of that role for the Town? Why the hell do you think I kept it hidden?

Because I think Caz is scum.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 2 - [1 REPLACEMENT NEEDED]
Post by: Jim Groovester on December 18, 2013, 08:19:03 pm

I thought he was scum too, but it turns out that Caz was town.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 2 - [1 REPLACEMENT NEEDED]
Post by: makeinu on December 18, 2013, 08:21:49 pm

Quote from: Jim Groovester on December 18, 2013, 08:19:03 pm

I thought he was scum too, but it turns out that Caz was town.

Imp

I can't out-think myself in circles. I can't. I'm sorry if I'm wrong.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 2 - [1 REPLACEMENT NEEDED]
Post by: Persus13 on December 18, 2013, 08:22:36 pm

Unvote.

I don't want a NL

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 2 - [1 REPLACEMENT NEEDED]
Post by: Jim Groovester on December 18, 2013, 08:23:31 pm

Remember kids, last minute vote gaming is a bad idea.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 2 - [1 REPLACEMENT NEEDED]
Post by: Imp on December 18, 2013, 08:24:37 pm

Town became survivor because of Jim's choice, claimed to be accidental pick?  Jim, pro Jim, telling Makeinu in PMs various 'truths'?  If Caz is Town and Jim is mind stealer, then Jim would rather see me lynched than himself lynched.  Invitation to makeinu my foot.  Jim's hurting Town.

Quote from: Jim Groovester on December 18, 2013, 08:23:31 pm

Remember kids, last minute vote gaming is a bad idea.

Yeah, vote's not on Jim, he'd like it to stop now, for all that he did it too and incited it further until he wasn't in danger.  Scum Jim.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 2 - [1 REPLACEMENT NEEDED]
Post by: Persus13 on December 18, 2013, 08:27:27 pm

If you guys had just let me die, this wouldn't have happened.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 2 - [1 REPLACEMENT NEEDED]
Post by: Superblackcat on December 18, 2013, 08:28:52 pm

Vote Makeinu

Again, WHAT THE FUCK ARE YOU DOING?

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 2 - [1 REPLACEMENT NEEDED]
Post by: Imp on December 18, 2013, 08:32:09 pm

Cat choices to lynch are me with 3 votes, Persus with 2, Jim with 2.  Makeinu cannot possibly be lynched right now without two-three more votes, 2 only if Jim or Toonyman would rather see him lynched than me.

I think Persus is Town.  I'm sure Jim is alien or Scum.  Game could stop any second.  1 vote for Jim ties.  Persus is here and unvoted currently.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 2 - [1 REPLACEMENT NEEDED]
Post by: Mephansteras on December 18, 2013, 08:35:23 pm

Ok, cutting you guys off. No votes past this point will be counted. I'll have the final vote tally and lynch results up shortly.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 2 - [1 REPLACEMENT NEEDED]
Post by: Mephansteras on December 18, 2013, 08:47:45 pm

The Whiteboard
Imp: Jim Groovester, makeinu, ToonyMan
Jim Groovester: Imp, RangerCado
makeinu: Superblackcat
Persus13: Tiruin, Toaster
Toaster: Superblackcat


  The arguments fly fast and furious, and in the end you decide that Imp is the one who should be lynched.

  Makeinu picks up the pistol and points it at her. "Yeah, look, no hard feelings but we can't have any doppelgangers on this ship. And...well, you might be one."

  "Wait! Give me a " *BANG* The shot goes right through one eye and she slumps over, dead. After a few moments you see the body begin to deform, the features melt away as her true Doppelganger form is revealed. You notice that her true form is larger and Tougher looking than the other doppelganger you killed.

  Relieved, you head back to your cabins. You may survive this nightmare after all!

---

Night has fallen. Send in your actions!

NOTE: OUTCOME CHANGED! I misstyped jim's vote in my spreadsheet and had him double-counted.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Night 2
Post by: Mephansteras on December 19, 2013, 01:54:11 pm

  As you make your way to the mess to start the trial you hear the unmistakable sounds of machine gun fire. You are torn between running towards the sounds to see what happened, or running away. Eventually, long after the sounds have faded, you muster your courage and make your way over. It seems to have come from RangerCado's cabin.
 
  You all look at one another and then someone opens the door. You see him lying on the floor of his cabin, body riddled with bullets and blood staining the floor. The window is shattered, and you surmise that whoever or whatever shot him did so through the glass.
 
  Disturbing.

  His body stays Human and looking around the room you determine that he was an Intelligence Scientist with some sort of surveillance system set up to let him watch for intruders. Didn't do him any good, from the looks of it.   
 
  But he seems to have been the only victim of the night. The rest of you are all accounted for, including Caz who is alive but seems a bit dazed. There is a doppelganger still out there. You have work to do.

---

Day 3 has begun. It will go until ~5pm Pacific Monday

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 3 brings death and release
Post by: Toaster on December 19, 2013, 01:56:33 pm

Tiruin, why did you kill Ranger?


Caz:  Did you get mind stolen?  What was your role, if so?


Jim:  Are you indeed a mind stealer?  Did you munch on Caz and his tasty brain?

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 3 brings death and release
Post by: RangerCado on December 19, 2013, 02:04:15 pm

...Did not expect that. XD

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 3 brings death and release
Post by: Caz on December 19, 2013, 02:07:59 pm

*crawls out of a cargo container, dazed and soiled* "Oh hey guys... what's going on?"

"I'm not sure, I seem to have forgotten some things... is the ship still in danger? I remember terrible visions. I labor all my life to unravel the mysteries of science, and this is what it comes to! My schematics ruined, and my experiment has been stolen! Someone must... pay for this. I need a nap."

*falls head-first onto the comfy metal bulkhead, with a clunk*


Yeah, I was mind-thiefed. I'm now a normal townsperson. I was the Mad Scientist before, and my Assassin Bot has been taken for purposes unknown. Sad stuff.

I'm very glad you guys managed to lynch Imp in the last chaotic minutes of the day. Reading Day 2 was quite troubling. Gonna get back into this in a couple hours when there's (hopefully) more information to go on.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 3 brings death and release
Post by: Toaster on December 19, 2013, 02:11:06 pm

I find that to be a very interesting claim.


Jim:  Care to confirm this?

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 3 brings death and release
Post by: ToonyMan on December 19, 2013, 02:15:21 pm

I blocked RangerCado last night thinking he was Imp's scum partner.  I'm not sure if that led to his death, but there wasn't a dopp kill again which wasn't my doing this time.

I'll have to agree with Toaster, why did you kill Ranger Tiruin?

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 3 brings death and release
Post by: ToonyMan on December 19, 2013, 02:16:11 pm

Oh, and for extra information, I was initially going to block Jim when there was a no-lynch, because I didn't have a read on him, but changed after seeing that Imp was actually lynched.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 3 brings death and release
Post by: Superblackcat on December 19, 2013, 03:11:49 pm

Quote from: ToonyMan on December 19, 2013, 02:15:21 pm

I blocked RangerCado last night thinking he was Imp's scum partner.  I'm not sure if that led to his death, but there wasn't a dopp kill again which wasn't my doing this time.

I'll have to agree with Toaster, why did you kill Ranger Tiruin?

How do you know that... this wasn't a dopp kill?

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 3 brings death and release
Post by: Caz on December 19, 2013, 03:14:55 pm

Quote from: Superblackcat on December 19, 2013, 03:11:49 pm

How do you know that... this wasn't a dopp kill?

Gunfire. Dopps kill with their pointy teeth and leave more of a mess.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 3 brings death and release
Post by: Superblackcat on December 19, 2013, 03:28:11 pm

Oooh! I see

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 3 brings death and release
Post by: Persus13 on December 19, 2013, 04:33:41 pm

First of, how do people feel about a massclaim? Since half of us have already claimed, my thought is that we might as well do it.

Secondly. No Dopp kill again? What does that mean? It could mean that Caz was the third scum team member. It could also mean dopp didn't kill to cause confusion. Is anyone else concerned by this?

Thirdly, last night I protected Toony, as I considered him a good target for scum.

Makeinu: WHo did you inspect last night?

Superblackcat: What were the reasons for your vote on me yesterday? Why did you completely ignore Imp yesterday?

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 3 brings death and release
Post by: ToonyMan on December 19, 2013, 04:38:52 pm

Why did you pick Assassin Bot Caz?  Isn't that something normally scum would do?  Since you just sort of killed our lyo doing that...

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 3 brings death and release
Post by: Jim Groovester on December 19, 2013, 04:40:26 pm

Quote from: Toaster on December 19, 2013, 02:11:06 pm

Jim:  Care to confirm this?

Yes he was a Military Scientist with an Assassin Bot. I used it last night on RangerCado.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 3 brings death and release
Post by: Caz on December 19, 2013, 04:40:46 pm

Quote from: Persus13 on December 19, 2013, 04:33:41 pm

Secondly. No Dopp kill again? What does that mean? It could mean that Caz was the third scum team member. It could also mean dopp didn't kill to cause confusion. Is anyone else concerned by this?

Since I was abducted, mind stealer gains my wincon. If I'm scum (i'm not btw) there's 2 dopps running around now.

I'm leaning towards the last dopp being Tiruin for defending Imp both in post and action.


ToonyMan: Assassin bots are fun. I was considering the self-defense turret, but that would have killed the alien and leave us in a worse position than we have now. It worked out all right in the end.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 3 brings death and release
Post by: Persus13 on December 19, 2013, 04:41:16 pm

Quote from: Jim Groovester on December 19, 2013, 04:40:26 pm

Quote from: Toaster on December 19, 2013, 02:11:06 pm

Jim:  Care to confirm this?

Yes he was a Military Scientist with an Assassin Bot. I used it last night on RangerCado.

Didn't Makeinu claim that you said Caz was a heroic guard though?

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 3 brings death and release
Post by: Caz on December 19, 2013, 04:42:48 pm

Quote from: Persus13 on December 19, 2013, 04:33:41 pm

Secondly. No Dopp kill again? What does that mean? It could mean that Caz was the third scum team member. It could also mean dopp didn't kill to cause confusion. Is anyone else concerned by this?

Thirdly, last night I protected Toony, as I considered him a good target for scum.

Maybe there was no kill as you protected Toony. He is pretty much 100% clear for his claim and the subsequent lynch on Imp, so it's not hard to believe scum would target him.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 3 brings death and release
Post by: ToonyMan on December 19, 2013, 04:43:03 pm

Oh then that means Jim has a town wincon now?  Either that or Jim and Caz are both dopps now.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 3 brings death and release
Post by: Superblackcat on December 19, 2013, 04:43:37 pm

Quote from: Persus13 on December 19, 2013, 04:33:41 pm

First of, how do people feel about a massclaim? Since half of us have already claimed, my thought is that we might as well do it.

Secondly. No Dopp kill again? What does that mean? It could mean that Caz was the third scum team member. It could also mean dopp didn't kill to cause confusion. Is anyone else concerned by this?

Thirdly, last night I protected Toony, as I considered him a good target for scum.

Makeinu: WHo did you inspect last night?

Superblackcat: What were the reasons for your vote on me yesterday? Why did you completely ignore Imp yesterday?

There were plenty voting Imp, I was going for the partner.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 3 brings death and release
Post by: Persus13 on December 19, 2013, 04:47:00 pm

Quote from: Caz on December 19, 2013, 04:42:48 pm

Quote from: Persus13 on December 19, 2013, 04:33:41 pm

Secondly. No Dopp kill again? What does that mean? It could mean that Caz was the third scum team member. It could also mean dopp didn't kill to cause confusion. Is anyone else concerned by this?

Thirdly, last night I protected Toony, as I considered him a good target for scum.

Maybe there was no kill as you protected Toony. He is pretty much 100% clear for his claim and the subsequent lynch on Imp, so it's not hard to believe scum would target him.

Well, if scum tried to kill Toony, I'd be dead.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 3 brings death and release
Post by: Jim Groovester on December 19, 2013, 04:47:38 pm

Quote from: Toaster on December 19, 2013, 01:56:33 pm

Jim:  Are you indeed a mind stealer?  Did you munch on Caz and his tasty brain?

Yes. The quotes makeinu posted about my reasons are from me verbatim. Caz is town.

Quote from: Persus13 on December 19, 2013, 04:41:16 pm

Didn't Makeinu claim that you said Caz was a heroic guard though?

I did but I lied.

I had a shiny Assassin Bot I could use, so I claimed a non-threatening role abduction in case makeinu decided to start blabbing all my secrets away, which he did, so that I wouldn't get blocked using it.

Quote from: ToonyMan on December 19, 2013, 04:43:03 pm

Oh then that means Jim has a town wincon now?  Either that or Jim and Caz are both dopps now.

If Caz was a dopp I'd be telling you that Caz was a dopp, because they are not going to win this game.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 3 brings death and release
Post by: Persus13 on December 19, 2013, 04:51:12 pm

Quote from: ToonyMan on December 19, 2013, 04:43:03 pm

Oh then that means Jim has a town wincon now?  Either that or Jim and Caz are both dopps now.

Yes, that's why I'm concerned by the lack of scumkill. If there had been a dopp kill, it would have meant Jim and Caz were town. Lack of one opens up the possibility that they were scum.

Quote from: Jim Groovester on December 19, 2013, 04:47:38 pm

Quote from: ToonyMan on December 19, 2013, 04:43:03 pm

Oh then that means Jim has a town wincon now?  Either that or Jim and Caz are both dopps now.

If Caz was a dopp I'd be telling you that Caz was a dopp, because they are not going to win this game.

I thought you'd get the same wincon as the person you abducted.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 3 brings death and release
Post by: Toaster on December 19, 2013, 04:53:08 pm

Interesting.


Caz:  Did you attempt to use your bot N1?  If so, on whom?

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 3 brings death and release
Post by: Jim Groovester on December 19, 2013, 04:55:31 pm

Quote from: Persus13 on December 19, 2013, 04:51:12 pm

I thought you'd get the same wincon as the person you abducted.

I do. Caz was a town Military Scientist. During Day 2 and Night 2 I was also a town Military Scientist. Now I'm just town-aligned.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 3 brings death and release
Post by: Caz on December 19, 2013, 04:56:55 pm

Quote from: Toaster on December 19, 2013, 04:53:08 pm

Interesting.


Caz:  Did you attempt to use your bot N1?  If so, on whom?

Nah, I didn't target anyone.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 3 brings death and release
Post by: makeinu on December 19, 2013, 05:09:11 pm

PPE: and here I was thinking aloud about the Assassin Bot and Jim goes and confirms it. And then why he used it instead. Stop that!

Know what's funny? If you'd said "Mad Scientist with Assassin Bot", I'd have been far less confused by the random role allocations.

---

Quote from: Persus13 on December 19, 2013, 04:51:12 pm

Quote from: ToonyMan on December 19, 2013, 04:43:03 pm

Oh then that means Jim has a town wincon now?  Either that or Jim and Caz are both dopps now.

Yes, that's why I'm concerned by the lack of scumkill. If there had been a dopp kill, it would have meant Jim and Caz were town. Lack of one opens up the possibility that they were scum.

WIFOM.

Quote

Quote from: Jim Groovester on December 19, 2013, 04:47:38 pm

Quote from: ToonyMan on December 19, 2013, 04:43:03 pm

Oh then that means Jim has a town wincon now?  Either that or Jim and Caz are both dopps now.

If Caz was a dopp I'd be telling you that Caz was a dopp, because they are not going to win this game.

I thought you'd get the same wincon as the person you abducted.

He's a Mind Stealer. He could have targeted anyone fairly well known last night to be Town after outing Caz, and there'd be no more dopp wincon. Ergo, he's truth telling.

---

Tiruin confirmed to me last night she knew RangerCado's role. She claimed also to be in contact with Persus, and claimed was protecting me (Jim or me, she said, but Jim claimed Heroic Guard, and I am "the cop" in her words). I'm not dead, obviously, so either she protected me as Town, or to spread WIFOM, said that and then didn't kill me as cover.

There's only three choices for the last dopp, as I see it:

1) Superblackcat
2) Toaster
3) Tiruin

1) I took a read on Superblackcat last night, and got no information of note, meaning he has no role. That doesn't rule out human or dopp necessarily. Comes across as scummy but not scum to me, and some of that is residual still from Max White on D1.

2) Toaster doesn't have a scum read to me. That's just a hunch, so take it for what it's worth, but if he's hiding, he's doing a damn good job of it.

3) Tiruin still has the highest scum read on my part. Sorry, meta here, but we did just finish Sprint, and you almost had me completely snowed there. And I'm seeing similar play patterns that I don't know are your normal meta or not.

---

I'm half ready to vote now. But there are lingering questions that float at the back of my mind. Here's one...

Jim, I know the answer, but I want to hear you say it: why'd you target RangerCado?

PPE again:

Quote from: Jim Groovester on December 19, 2013, 04:55:31 pm

Quote from: Persus13 on December 19, 2013, 04:51:12 pm

I thought you'd get the same wincon as the person you abducted.

I do. Caz was a town Military Scientist. During Day 2 and Night 2 I was also a town Military Scientist. Now I'm just town-aligned.

He's wondering why you'd bus on Caz as a dopp.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 3 brings death and release
Post by: Persus13 on December 19, 2013, 05:33:23 pm

Quote from: makeinu on December 19, 2013, 05:09:11 pm

I'd have been far less confused by the random role allocations.

Why were you so confused on that? Multiple guards being rolled doesn't decrease the chance another will be rollled.

Quote from: makeinu on December 19, 2013, 05:09:11 pm

Quote from: Persus13 on December 19, 2013, 04:51:12 pm

Quote from: ToonyMan on December 19, 2013, 04:43:03 pm

Oh then that means Jim has a town wincon now?  Either that or Jim and Caz are both dopps now.

Yes, that's why I'm concerned by the lack of scumkill. If there had been a dopp kill, it would have meant Jim and Caz were town. Lack of one opens up the possibility that they were scum.

WIFOM.

I fail to see how this is WIFOM. I fail to see how Jim and Caz could be anything but town if there was no scum kill last night.
 

Quote from: makeinu on December 19, 2013, 05:09:11 pm

Quote

Quote from: Jim Groovester on December 19, 2013, 04:47:38 pm

Quote from: ToonyMan on December 19, 2013, 04:43:03 pm

Oh then that means Jim has a town wincon now?  Either that or Jim and Caz are both dopps now.

If Caz was a dopp I'd be telling you that Caz was a dopp, because they are not going to win this game.

I thought you'd get the same wincon as the person you abducted.

He's a Mind Stealer. He could have targeted anyone fairly well known last night to be Town after outing Caz, and there'd be no more dopp wincon. Ergo, he's truth telling.

I fail to understand your point.

Quote from: makeinu on December 19, 2013, 05:09:11 pm

Tiruin confirmed to me last night she knew RangerCado's role. She claimed also to be in contact with Persus, and claimed was protecting me (Jim or me, she said, but Jim claimed Heroic Guard, and I am "the cop" in her words). I'm not dead, obviously, so either she protected me as Town, or to spread WIFOM, said that and then didn't kill me as cover.

I'd like to confirm that I talked with Tiruin via PM. She knew I protected Toony and she told me she would protect Makeinu.

Quote from: makeinu on December 19, 2013, 05:09:11 pm

There's only three choices for the last dopp, as I see it:

1) Superblackcat
2) Toaster
3) Tiruin

I'd disagree with your list. Jim and Caz can still be scum. I doubt they are, but we can't be absolutely certain they're town.

Quote from: makeinu on December 19, 2013, 05:09:11 pm

1) I took a read on Superblackcat last night, and got no information of note, meaning he has no role. That doesn't rule out human or dopp necessarily. Comes across as scummy but not scum to me, and some of that is residual still from Max White on D1.

Max being scummy should not be a negative factor in your assessment of SBC.

Quote from: makeinu on December 19, 2013, 05:09:11 pm

2) Toaster doesn't have a scum read to me. That's just a hunch, so take it for what it's worth, but if he's hiding, he's doing a damn good job of it.

Agreed

Quote from: makeinu on December 19, 2013, 05:09:11 pm

3) Tiruin still has the highest scum read on my part. Sorry, meta here, but we did just finish Sprint, and you almost had me completely snowed there. And I'm seeing similar play patterns that I don't know are your normal meta or not.

I'm pretty sure what you've seen are normal for Tiruin.

SBC: What's your role, given Makeinu's claimed inspect?

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 3 brings death and release
Post by: makeinu on December 19, 2013, 05:45:03 pm

Quote from: Persus13 on December 19, 2013, 05:33:23 pm

Quote from: makeinu on December 19, 2013, 05:09:11 pm

I'd have been far less confused by the random role allocations.

Why were you so confused on that? Multiple guards being rolled doesn't decrease the chance another will be rollled.

Because I'm not used to that type of setup for a game. I've seen weird setups before, so rarely am I surprised for long, but I've never played a game where the roles are completely randomly determined. Thus, three Guards, two Heroic, seemed odd to me

Quote

Quote from: makeinu on December 19, 2013, 05:09:11 pm

Quote from: Persus13 on December 19, 2013, 04:51:12 pm

Quote from: ToonyMan on December 19, 2013, 04:43:03 pm

Oh then that means Jim has a town wincon now?  Either that or Jim and Caz are both dopps now.

Yes, that's why I'm concerned by the lack of scumkill. If there had been a dopp kill, it would have meant Jim and Caz were town. Lack of one opens up the possibility that they were scum.

WIFOM.

I fail to see how this is WIFOM. I fail to see how Jim and Caz could be anything but town if there was no scum kill last night.

Because I believe Jim when he says that he sided Town by choice because the dopps aren't going to win this one. We scored two dopp lynches and no dopp kills in two day/night cycles. I've never seen that happen before. That's what the point of this is:
 

Quote

Quote from: makeinu on December 19, 2013, 05:09:11 pm

Quote

Quote from: Jim Groovester on December 19, 2013, 04:47:38 pm

Quote from: ToonyMan on December 19, 2013, 04:43:03 pm

Oh then that means Jim has a town wincon now?  Either that or Jim and Caz are both dopps now.

If Caz was a dopp I'd be telling you that Caz was a dopp, because they are not going to win this game.

I thought you'd get the same wincon as the person you abducted.

He's a Mind Stealer. He could have targeted anyone fairly well known last night to be Town after outing Caz, and there'd be no more dopp wincon. Ergo, he's truth telling.

I fail to understand your point.

"Hey guys, Caz was actually a dopp and we can't pull off the win, so I Mind Stealed from makeinu and I'm Town now, let's finish this off."

Would he play that way? I don't know, but that's what he's saying.

Quote

1) Superblackcat
2) Toaster
3) Tiruin

I'd disagree with your list. Jim and Caz can still be scum. I doubt they are, but we can't be absolutely certain they're town.[/quote]

So you don't actually disagree with the list, just would add to it. Technically.

Quote

Quote from: makeinu on December 19, 2013, 05:09:11 pm

1) I took a read on Superblackcat last night, and got no information of note, meaning he has no role. That doesn't rule out human or dopp necessarily. Comes across as scummy but not scum to me, and some of that is residual still from Max White on D1.

Max being scummy should not be a negative factor in your assessment of SBC.

Shouldn't be, but that's how the primitive part of the brain works, then, isn't it? Trumping logic with feelings?

Quote

Quote from: makeinu on December 19, 2013, 05:09:11 pm

3) Tiruin still has the highest scum read on my part. Sorry, meta here, but we did just finish Sprint, and you almost had me completely snowed there. And I'm seeing similar play patterns that I don't know are your normal meta or not.

I'm pretty sure what you've seen are normal for Tiruin.

Fair enough. Still doesn't push her down my list, I'm afraid, sorry to Tiruin, until and/or unless new info comes out today.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 3 brings death and release
Post by: Jim Groovester on December 19, 2013, 05:46:47 pm

Quote from: makeinu on December 19, 2013, 05:09:11 pm

He's wondering why you'd bus on Caz as a dopp.

Because I can pick a wincon and the dopps are a sinking ship.

I wouldn't out him as a dopp while I was dopp-aligned though.

Quote from: makeinu on December 19, 2013, 05:09:11 pm

Jim, I know the answer, but I want to hear you say it: why'd you target RangerCado?

Because I thought he was scum.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 3 brings death and release
Post by: Persus13 on December 19, 2013, 05:53:02 pm

Quote from: Jim Groovester on December 19, 2013, 05:46:47 pm

Quote from: makeinu on December 19, 2013, 05:09:11 pm

He's wondering why you'd bus on Caz as a dopp.

Because I can pick a wincon and the dopps are a sinking ship.

I wouldn't out him as a dopp while I was dopp-aligned though.

Oh, I was under the impression you could only mind Steal once. That decreases the possibility of you two being scum.

So who is your scum pick for today?

Toaster, Toony: What's your take on Jim claiming the RangerCado kill?

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 3 brings death and release
Post by: Superblackcat on December 19, 2013, 06:00:00 pm

Man, you guys suck, I am the only fucking townie?

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 3 brings death and release
Post by: Caz on December 19, 2013, 06:17:33 pm

Quote from: Superblackcat on December 19, 2013, 06:00:00 pm

Man, you guys suck, I am the only fucking townie?

?

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 3 brings death and release
Post by: Superblackcat on December 19, 2013, 06:23:35 pm

You guys all had/have roles. I'm literally role-less

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 3 brings death and release
Post by: Jim Groovester on December 19, 2013, 06:27:57 pm

Quote from: Persus13 on December 19, 2013, 05:53:02 pm

So who is your scum pick for today?

I don't know. Everybody I suspected is either dead or have strongly shown themselves to be non-scum.

With the available roles we could probably win mechanically from here on out.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 3 brings death and release
Post by: makeinu on December 19, 2013, 06:35:45 pm

Quote from: Jim Groovester on December 19, 2013, 05:46:47 pm

I wouldn't out him as a dopp while I was dopp-aligned though.

I figured that, it was a hand-wavey example of how it might go.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 3 brings death and release
Post by: Caz on December 19, 2013, 06:43:16 pm

Quote from: Persus13 on December 19, 2013, 04:33:41 pm

First of, how do people feel about a massclaim? Since half of us have already claimed, my thought is that we might as well do it.

Sounds good to me as pretty much everyone has claimed by now and the cop is out. I doubt it will be that useful but you never know.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 3 brings death and release
Post by: makeinu on December 19, 2013, 07:21:38 pm

Quote from: Caz on December 19, 2013, 06:43:16 pm

pretty much everyone has claimed by now

Who hasn't claimed by now? Toaster...

Caz: vanilla Town
Jim: Mind Stealer
Persus: Observant Guard Town
Tiruin: Heroic Guard Town
SBC: vanilla Town
me: Detective Town
ToonyMan: Psychic Warden Town
Toaster: ?

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 3 brings death and release
Post by: makeinu on December 19, 2013, 08:13:03 pm

Quote from: Superblackcat on December 19, 2013, 06:23:35 pm

You guys all had/have roles. I'm literally role-less

This is quite the power madness game...

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 3 brings death and release
Post by: Mephansteras on December 19, 2013, 08:19:03 pm

The Whiteboard
Superblackcat: Persus13
Tiruin: Caz, makeinu, ToonyMan, Toaster

---

Day ends ~5pm Pacific Monday

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 3 brings death and release
Post by: Jim Groovester on December 19, 2013, 08:26:05 pm

Quote from: makeinu on December 19, 2013, 08:13:03 pm

Quote from: Superblackcat on December 19, 2013, 06:23:35 pm

You guys all had/have roles. I'm literally role-less

This is quite the power madness game...

Welcome to Paranormal.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 3 brings death and release
Post by: makeinu on December 19, 2013, 09:10:51 pm

Quote from: Jim Groovester on December 19, 2013, 08:26:05 pm

Welcome to Paranormal.

I love it!! :D

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 3 brings death and release
Post by: ToonyMan on December 19, 2013, 09:16:39 pm

Quote from: Persus13 on December 19, 2013, 05:53:02 pm

Toaster, Toony: What's your take on Jim claiming the RangerCado kill?

He most likely did it.

I'll role-block Toaster tonight if Tiruin isn't the last dopp.  Our guards can protect me and Makeinu.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 3 brings death and release
Post by: Persus13 on December 19, 2013, 09:18:35 pm

Quote from: ToonyMan on December 19, 2013, 09:16:39 pm

Quote from: Persus13 on December 19, 2013, 05:53:02 pm

Toaster, Toony: What's your take on Jim claiming the RangerCado kill?

He most likely did it.

I'll role-block Toaster tonight if Tiruin isn't the last dopp.  Our guards can protect me and Makeinu.

it's me and Tiruin that are the guards. What's your case on Tiruin?

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 3 brings death and release
Post by: ToonyMan on December 19, 2013, 09:22:18 pm

It's really procession of elimination.  I'll have a better opinion after Tiruin posts.  But I don't see myself ever voting Caz, Jim, or Makeinu again.

Although if one of us could figure out a way to confirm everybody with our roles would be nice.  I don't think anybody disagrees that Makeinu and I are the best protect targets?

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 3 brings death and release
Post by: Toaster on December 19, 2013, 10:53:50 pm

Well, since everyone else has, I'll join the club.

I am the Agent.

N1 I inspected Caz.  That was a waste.
N2 I inspect Persus.  He came back Human.

---

The lack of Dopp last night is very odd.  Caz as scum would explain that*, but there's one thing that keeps Caz as strong town- Jim.  If Caz was indeed dopp, all Jim had to do was mind steal anyone else, get the town wincon, and rat out Caz today.  Game over, town and Jim win.

*No dopp kill because there's no one around to perform it

So let's look at the list.

Jim Groovester:  Almost certainly town due to the Caz situation.
Toaster:  Me.  I know I'm town, but that doesn't really help the rest of you.
Superblackcat:  No strong read here.
Persus13:  Inspected as human.
Caz:  Probably town due to above.
Tiruin:  No strong read here.
ToonyMan:  Claim called out Imp.
makeinu:  DarkStar's actions point to him as nondopp, plus was the deciding vote against Imp.  If he's a dopp, he's a damn mastermind who deserves an Oscar.

That narrows down my suspect list to this:

Superblackcat
Tiruin

And a small side of

Persus (Dopp Leader?)
Toony (Could have fakeclaimed?  Really not liking this one, but I say it's more likely than any of the others.)




So I propose this.  Today we lynch one of Tiruin or Superblackcat.  Tonight I inspect the other and Makeinu rolecops Persus, to check him for Dopp Leader status.  Persus (and Tiruin if she's not lynched) guard me or Makeinu.  Toony blocks SBC if he's not lynched.  If he is, he flips a coin and blocks Tiruin on heads, Caz on tails.  (I doubt Caz is scum, but if he's vanilla it doesn't hurt anything anyway- and it verifies his role, since all we have is the word of a Dopp right now.)  Jim stays home.

That offs one of Tiruin or SBC, cops the other, and doublechecks the info on Persus.

If that doesn't give any useful info, we circle around and try again tomorrow.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 3 brings death and release
Post by: makeinu on December 19, 2013, 11:43:26 pm

Hey, look! Wine!

Superblackcat: are you a Survivor?

The majority of votes ride on Tiruin already. Correct me if I'm wrong, but winning with your side (Town/scum) here does not necessarily require surviving, right?

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 3 brings death and release
Post by: Jim Groovester on December 19, 2013, 11:45:33 pm

Jim stays home?

But Mind Stealing is a roleblock + infallible role inspect + infallible alignment inspect + role eraser + wincon adoption. It's probably the most potent role in here right now.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 3 brings death and release
Post by: Persus13 on December 19, 2013, 11:57:48 pm

Quote from: makeinu on December 19, 2013, 11:43:26 pm

Hey, look! Wine!

Superblackcat: are you a Survivor?

The majority of votes ride on Tiruin already. Correct me if I'm wrong, but winning with your side (Town/scum) here does not necessarily require surviving, right?

Why would SBC be a survivor if you got no role on him?

Also, I fail to see anything wrong with Toaster's plan.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 3 brings death and release
Post by: makeinu on December 19, 2013, 11:59:48 pm

Quote from: Persus13 on December 19, 2013, 11:57:48 pm

Why would SBC be a survivor if you got no role on him?

Quote

Survivor
    Visible Role: No Role

He's no threat, if so.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 3 brings death and release
Post by: makeinu on December 20, 2013, 12:25:40 am

Today we lynch Tiruin.

Tonight, in this order:

Toony blocks Superblackcat.
Jim Mind Steals ToonyMan. If dopp, we'll know, if Town, Jim wins with Town.
Persus guards makeinu.
makeinu rolecops Persus, to check him for Dopp Leader status. 'No role' result belies the guard claim.
Toaster checks for race on Superblackcat.

If Tiruin flips dopp, we're done, unless there's a dangerous Alien out there. Persus and ToonyMan will be cleared completely, or one outed as Dopp Leader. Superblackcat either comes back human, possible Dopp Leader, or Alien, Survivor.

If, come morning, there's no dopp flip from all that, or a night kill, then Toaster and Superblackcat are the only ones not thoroughly cleared.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 3 brings death and release
Post by: Tiruin on December 20, 2013, 02:18:01 am

Quote from: makeinu on December 20, 2013, 12:25:40 am

Today we lynch Tiruin.

I so love how you all act without letting me speak. Is this a case of trial in absentia, people? Are you all so lazy as to not speak up?

Most of you all disgust me as players now. Either that, or its my stress speaking (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=124335.msg4230074#msg4230074), several times per year, at least once per month, and at irregular intervals of my temperament per week. But to expound, as I know some of you have your panties in a knot and love to scrutinize everything I say--even that in the header which is usually just my own neutral talk to the game--I do notice a lot of laziness: Lacking curiosity. Innovation. Honest-to-goodness speculation.

Disgusting.

Quote from: RangerCado on December 19, 2013, 02:04:15 pm

...Did not expect that. XD

"I will provide notes on you henceforth, as soon as I get my answers to those above. I apologize for my actions dear buddy boy. Rest assured, I will have the last-though melancholic-laugh and will redeem your name."

Tiruin slides the cylindrical, polka-dotted gift under her seat as she stands up and speaks...

Quote from: Caz on December 19, 2013, 04:40:46 pm

I'm leaning towards the last dopp being Tiruin for defending Imp both in post and action.

"Tch. If there was more than one dopp left, I'd be suspecting you, but I'm clearing you out under grounds of blatant idiocy. Oh, and I've got my dossier on you and others in the background, so you're...clear. Though if I was the commanding officer I'd be sacking you from duty and relegating your quarters as a hot-bunk for the new recruits.

"In other words, you're not thinking. Or thinking so little that you choose the most shallow scum-thought. Anyway."

---

---

Before I issue my formal post, I thank Superblackcat for filling me in on recent events through Darkmyst: #Bay12lb IRC channel--Meph, I suppose you got the spam logs? :P
Anyway, let me ask a few pertinent questions.

Toaster: Why did you target me last night?

ToonyMan: Are you so droll as to hop onto Toaster's note just like that? If I had any moment to laugh at your face in a player-player scenario, I'm doing it now. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=133676.msg4847687#msg4847687) I smell a cheapshot coming from your part, but am curious--why are you doing what you're doing? Hoping for an easy lynch without even doing anything else?

Caz: As referenced above--can you expound on how my defense makes or perhaps ties me in with Imp being scum (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=133676.msg4848085#msg4848085), or preferably how it makes me scum? I will expound on it later on but I'd like to see your thoughts on it given...how I'm getting used to your playstyle--its roots lie in brevity, and need quite a bit of prodding to get. It pokes at the most superficial ideas at times before even trying to think deeper on the case at hand; if I have to pull off a case, I'd point at Supernatural 6--it was easy to bus you given your play there, and you never bothered to even notify me or my buddies if what you were doing was seriously intentional, or just by due accident.

Quote from: Caz on December 19, 2013, 04:40:46 pm

Quote from: Persus13 on December 19, 2013, 04:33:41 pm

Secondly. No Dopp kill again? What does that mean? It could mean that Caz was the third scum team member. It could also mean dopp didn't kill to cause confusion. Is anyone else concerned by this?

Since I was abducted, mind stealer gains my wincon. If I'm scum (i'm not btw) there's 2 dopps running around now.

Wat.
How is there two dopps when your mind got stole-

Spoiler: Nah he's telling the truth (click to show/hide)

Quote

Mind Stealer - Copies the Role from the Abducted player for the following day/night as well as the Win Condition of that player until a new one is acquired. The abducted player reverts to a vanilla role for the rest of the game(Aliens will all become survivors). If the Mind Stealer doesn't have any other goal, then it is a Survivor.

Ah.
Anyway: (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=133676.msg4848142#msg4848142) I implore you to use this against me if trash hits the fan because of the idiocy of the masses, thanks.

Superblackcat: I've told you what I've told you behind the lines--I leave the analysis to you; I understand that you withheld information from me on the basis of the benefit of the doubt, but given the scenario now (most probably 1 last dopp + alien scum), it is imperative that you give enough information in order to aid the Town. I know your advantages as you told me, and I will keep it confidential, though it gives me details on specific others here.

Meph//EveryoneGeneral Query (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=133676.msg4848133#msg4848133): If a Mind Stealer targets someone with an item--the role is copied, but the item is not taken, right? As in, if a role depends on an item for abilities but without an item, is vanilla, then the Mind Stealer is basically Vanilla now, aye? (Can Mind Stealers..mind steal twice after doing it the first time?)

makeinu

Quote from: makeinu on December 19, 2013, 05:09:11 pm

3) Tiruin still has the highest scum read on my part. Sorry, meta here, but we did just finish Sprint, and you almost had me completely snowed there. And I'm seeing similar play patterns that I don't know are your normal meta or not.

"...Ok, for posterity, this does not faze me at all. I mean..what."
Metaknowledge?
BLOODY METAKNOWLEDGE?!
Who am I? Ellen Ripley from Aliens, that my reputation precedes my name?
I cannot defend against this because it is a generality--it states without directly stating. You're labeling me because you lack a target, is what I'm saying, and either using me as bait to check responses, or sincerely..voting for me.
And I cannot 'snow' you there. I doubt I have any control over the climes in this area, or am perhaps missing a metaphor (do you mean something along the lines of trust? Well EXPOUND ON WHAT SIMILARITIES THERE IS THAT MAKE ME SCUM WHY DON'Y YOU)

Quote from: makeinu on December 19, 2013, 05:45:03 pm

Quote from: Persus said this

I'm pretty sure what you've seen are normal for Tiruin.

Fair enough. Still doesn't push her down my list, I'm afraid, sorry to Tiruin, until and/or unless new info comes out today.

...Ayup, former suspicion leaning to confirmation. I trusted you, dude, out of all the others here. Click me as an emotional appeal or whatever, but...wow. I can't believe it. >_>

Jim

Quote from: Jim Groovester on December 19, 2013, 05:46:47 pm

Because I thought he was scum.

Explain, kuya. I regard your brevity with suspicion. You can always 'think x is scum', but that doesn't justify your blatant targeting.

Superblackkittycat

Quote from: Superblackcat on December 19, 2013, 06:23:35 pm

You guys all had/have roles. I'm literally role-less

Mhmm, yeah right.



For posterity This was my last post--and my REAL last post until I woke up the next day post-exams, wherein Day ends. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=133676.msg4844445#msg4844445)

So you can imagine my joy at the ton of stuff that happened without me saying anything, and then the consecutive 'joy' at the ton of cr** that's happening now, without me saying bloody anything.

---

Quote from: Persus13 on December 19, 2013, 04:33:41 pm

Secondly. No Dopp kill again? What does that mean? It could mean that Caz was the third scum team member. It could also mean dopp didn't kill to cause confusion. Is anyone else concerned by this?

...As far as I know, it could also mean the last dopp has access to guns.
Or an assassin bot. Anyone know the flavor for assassin bots?

Toaster: On your note before--No, I'm not new to this (I mean I played 2 other games with you before--one where you were a Spore Spreader, and two where Dariush was pissed off because a plasma bomb killed him. I forgot which games those were but I was flaily on both.) Said note poking at my memory...yes, it is on my full error that it got messed up; the idea of the flavor withholding kills equal what I was thinking before as non-paranormal flavor (or non-Mephansteras flavor..forgetting that Meph has those faction-flavor kill stuff everytime.) In truth, my mind was confuzzled because exams and the laws of biological life, + immunology and perspective and pointilism.

So yeah. Attribute my error (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=133676.msg4844990#msg4844990) to confusion and muddled thought, but I ask that no error be attributed to my honor for my mistake back then, thanks. However, I will explain why I claimed what I did then, after you answer what I'm asking you above.

ToonyMan

Quote from: ToonyMan on December 19, 2013, 09:22:18 pm

Quote from: Persus13 on December 19, 2013, 09:18:35 pm

Quote from: ToonyMan on December 19, 2013, 09:16:39 pm

Quote from: Persus13 on December 19, 2013, 05:53:02 pm

Toaster, Toony: What's your take on Jim claiming the RangerCado kill?

He most likely did it.

I'll role-block Toaster tonight if Tiruin isn't the last dopp.  Our guards can protect me and Makeinu.

it's me and Tiruin that are the guards. What's your case on Tiruin?

It's really procession of elimination.  I'll have a better opinion after Tiruin posts.  But I don't see myself ever voting Caz, Jim, or Makeinu again.

Although if one of us could figure out a way to confirm everybody with our roles would be nice.  I don't think anybody disagrees that Makeinu and I are the best protect targets?

Process of e-
*throws hands up*
You have the worst way of stating your words then.

Quote from: makeinu on December 19, 2013, 09:10:51 pm

Quote from: Jim Groovester on December 19, 2013, 08:26:05 pm

Welcome to Paranormal.

I love it!! :D

I love it too! And hate you! :D
^{No this is all a ruse and I love you a lot. <3 <3 <3 xoxo makeinu~~}

---

---

WAIT Just read

Quote from: Toaster on December 19, 2013, 10:53:50 pm

Well, since everyone else has, I'll join the club.

I am the Agent.

N1 I inspected Caz.  That was a waste.
N2 I inspect Persus.  He came back Human.

Toaster, I will want your reply to my query above IMMEDIATELY because I believe I have singled out a nigh-sure scummy target unless you have something else to say.

Because seriously, that whole 'Why did you kill x' always jives me along the lines of 'I don't have any real suspicions so I'll sling this sack of mud at someone else and look at their reply'. Meaning: I don't like your tactics. It's obvious.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 3 brings death and release
Post by: Tiruin on December 20, 2013, 02:20:49 am

Oh, right, and about anyone asking my suspicio-list, I'll be posting it later as well as shtuff I learned in the night. I even did a side-venture with Meph because he was so kind to let me do so! :D

So yeah. Y'all have until Monday to rack up those neurons.
^{Someone tell me that acting tough is a thing I can do.}

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 3 brings death and release
Post by: makeinu on December 20, 2013, 03:13:23 am

Quote from: Tiruin on December 20, 2013, 02:18:01 am

Quote from: makeinu on December 20, 2013, 12:25:40 am

Today we lynch Tiruin.

Does it bother you so that I took Toaster's plan (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=133676.msg4849109#msg4849109), and chose one of those lynch options as concrete, instead of leaving it as either/or? After all, there are two things to note.

One, if nothing else happens this day, you have the lynch already. My proposal stemmed from laziness, i.e., letting sleeping votes lie, to butcher a metaphor.

Two, Town wins together, or loses together. Perhaps it's preferable from a certain standpoint to survive to the end of the game, even if Survival is not your wincon. I wouldn't know, I've never survived to the end, and where I learned to play, you only won if your side did and you were alive at the end.

Quote

I so love how you all act without letting me speak. Is this a case of trial in absentia, people? Are you all so lazy as to not speak up?

Au contraire, mon sœur, we have been eagerly awaiting your dulcet tones, to elucidate your view as to why it is that we are so wrong to suspect you.

Quote

Superblackcat: I've told you what I've told you behind the lines--I leave the analysis to you; I understand that you withheld information from me on the basis of the benefit of the doubt, but given the scenario now (most probably 1 last dopp + alien scum), it is imperative that you give enough information in order to aid the Town. I know your advantages as you told me, and I will keep it confidential, though it gives me details on specific others here.

And here we come up against the wall I faced in questioning based on mine own private knowledge. Of what does dear Tiruin refer to here, Superblackcat? She seems to opine that there is more to you than meets the eye. Are you indeed a better target than she is?

Also, I do believe that the general consensus is that there remains one final dopp, and the only so-far discovered alien is harmless, at worst, and proving quite helpful. The outside chance that Superblackcat is an alien is limited to him being a poor Survivor, as I found that he had No Role to speak of, and there is only one Alien that comes up as that to the Detective, n'est-ce pas?

Quote

Meph//EveryoneGeneral Query (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=133676.msg4848133#msg4848133): If a Mind Stealer targets someone with an item--the role is copied, but the item is not taken, right? As in, if a role depends on an item for abilities but without an item, is vanilla, then the Mind Stealer is basically Vanilla now, aye? (Can Mind Stealers..mind steal twice after doing it the first time?)

Answered by confession, both from mind stealer and mind stolen. Jim took Caz' Assassin Bot and used it to kill RangerCado, of his own decision.

Quote

makeinu

Quote from: makeinu on December 19, 2013, 05:09:11 pm

3) Tiruin still has the highest scum read on my part. Sorry, meta here, but we did just finish Sprint, and you almost had me completely snowed there. And I'm seeing similar play patterns that I don't know are your normal meta or not.

"...Ok, for posterity, this does not faze me at all. I mean..what."
Metaknowledge?
BLOODY METAKNOWLEDGE?!
Who am I? Ellen Ripley from Aliens, that my reputation precedes my name?
I cannot defend against this because it is a generality--it states without directly stating. You're labeling me because you lack a target, is what I'm saying, and either using me as bait to check responses, or sincerely..voting for me.

Perhaps you are bait, perhaps I genuinely suspect you. As I said elsewhere, I don't know what is "normal" for you, I only know what I saw when last we sparred. And I see strong similarities here to there. Does that mean we are on the same relative sides again? I don't know, but I assume it.

Quote

And I cannot 'snow' you there. I doubt I have any control over the climes in this area, or am perhaps missing a metaphor (do you mean something along the lines of trust?

Apologies. Mid-20th century in origin American slang that has become more generalized in meaning.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Quote

snow (to)
verb
(tr) US and Canadian slang to deceive or overwhelm with elaborate often insincere talk See snow job

Derived from:

Quote

snow job
n
Slang chiefly US and Canadian an instance of deceiving or overwhelming someone with elaborate often insincere talk

Collins English Dictionary – Complete and Unabridged
ca. [1940–45, Amer.]

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Well EXPOUND ON WHAT SIMILARITIES THERE IS THAT MAKE ME SCUM WHY DON'Y YOU

You're flailing a bit here.

Quote

Quote from: makeinu on December 19, 2013, 05:45:03 pm

Quote from: Persus said this

I'm pretty sure what you've seen are normal for Tiruin.

Fair enough. Still doesn't push her down my list, I'm afraid, sorry to Tiruin, until and/or unless new info comes out today.

...Ayup, former suspicion leaning to confirmation. I trusted you, dude, out of all the others here. Click me as an emotional appeal or whatever, but...wow. I can't believe it. >_>

'Tis but a game, after all. However, trusted me out of all the others here. The implication is that you spoke privately, in confidence, with none other. Yet, above, you reference unknown conversation with SBC...

Or this, as well, which seems to imply more.

Quote

Superblackkittycat

Quote from: Superblackcat on December 19, 2013, 06:23:35 pm

You guys all had/have roles. I'm literally role-less

Mhmm, yeah right.

---

Quote

Quote from: Persus13 on December 19, 2013, 04:33:41 pm

Secondly. No Dopp kill again? What does that mean? It could mean that Caz was the third scum team member. It could also mean dopp didn't kill to cause confusion. Is anyone else concerned by this?

...As far as I know, it could also mean the last dopp has access to guns.
Or an assassin bot. Anyone know the flavor for assassin bots?

Is this a genuine question? Where above we have Caz confirming ownership of an Assassin Bot, and Jim confirming theft and use of same?

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Quote

Quote from: makeinu on December 19, 2013, 09:10:51 pm

Quote from: Jim Groovester on December 19, 2013, 08:26:05 pm

Welcome to Paranormal.

I love it!!

I love it too! And hate you!
^{No this is all a ruse and I love you a lot. <3 <3 <3 xoxo makeinu~~}

I find you quite the enjoyable sparring partner. I think that I find you hard to read, and I enjoy that. You make me exercise my brain.

Quote

WAIT Just read

Quote from: Toaster on December 19, 2013, 10:53:50 pm

Well, since everyone else has, I'll join the club.

I am the Agent.

N1 I inspected Caz.  That was a waste.
N2 I inspect Persus.  He came back Human.

Toaster, I will want your reply to my query above IMMEDIATELY because I believe I have singled out a nigh-sure scummy target unless you have something else to say.

Because seriously, that whole 'Why did you kill x' always jives me along the lines of 'I don't have any real suspicions so I'll sling this sack of mud at someone else and look at their reply'. Meaning: I don't like your tactics. It's obvious.

You refer to this?

Quote

Toaster: Why did you target me last night?

Because, according to his claim, he did not target you last night.

---

---

As was said before, not by me, it's now a process of elimination. The matter now is simply to formalize the order in which we eliminate and confirm the last threat to those of us that remain. I prefer to do that intellectually rather than mechanically, but either works in the end.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 3 brings death and release
Post by: Tiruin on December 20, 2013, 06:54:04 am

Now to start from the ground up! Meaning, backwards in that single reply because its night and oh wow one reply! :O

---

---

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As was said before, not by me, it's now a process of elimination. The matter now is simply to formalize the order in which we eliminate and confirm the last threat to those of us that remain. I prefer to do that intellectually rather than mechanically, but either works in the end.

How's about put the holistic prospect in the consideration zone? What if someone here fakeclaimed--it can't be Jim or Caz or they'd be buddy-buddies, but one's an alien and the other is a human so we have xeno-buddies. Anyway we can safely discard them as non-scum (or if scum, we can deal with em later). I do not know if the Mind Stealer, once copied a role, can copy again though.

Next: Relations on Imp and TDS. Why I acted as I acted on Imp? I believed her to be town given my abilities, and how she configured her -quite everything- in the days prior to now; the check on Toony kicking Imp right there would nail Toony as non-scum (99%) by the expenditure of ability to efficiency in alignment. That, and the last part of that sentence also speaks on how the confuddling scenario happened yesterday--there was genuine confusion.

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Because, according to his claim, he did not target you last night.

Well, that's pretty much obvious given how a number of people (hint: It's most probably two) have followed the notion of me killing Ranger without asking at all. This could mean the amount of content generated by Toaster and ToonyMan today comes down to -role- actions and mostly nothing else!

..I mean, all votes on me are either null, or obvious pressure. Pretty much a wasted expenditure, and then you call me an 'advantageous prospect' by your words there?

I like how you conclude without giving space for reason. That's quite awesome of you! :D

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Is this a genuine question? Where above we have Caz confirming ownership of an Assassin Bot, and Jim confirming theft and use of same?

...Didn't Caz say he had an assassin bot and Jim say something something Military Scientist?
*checks*
I have no idea how you're missing this, yet being mean to me. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=133676.msg4848133#msg4848133)

But I got lost on the wording so there you go. Me questioning.

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'Tis but a game, after all. However, trusted me out of all the others here. The implication is that you spoke privately, in confidence, with none other. Yet, above, you reference unknown conversation with SBC...

Or this, as well, which seems to imply more.

I spoke to you, Cado, Persus and Mephansteras. Oh, and Imp, but that was all non-Mafia talk and rather on how she's been doing (I'm real glad she's doing better  :'( )
The implication that Persus and Cado started their chat with me is better to put into the spotlight, and me speaking to you also makes a good idea to think about, no?

Quote

Quote

Well EXPOUND ON WHAT SIMILARITIES THERE IS THAT MAKE ME SCUM WHY DON'Y YOU

You're flailing a bit here.

Well it's better than a generality.

Quote

3) Tiruin still has the highest scum read on my part. Sorry, meta here, but we did just finish Sprint, and you almost had me completely snowed there. And I'm seeing similar play patterns that I don't know are your normal meta or not.

I mean I don't even know what play patterns exist there. Is it the RP'ing? My use of formatting for emphasis? My sentence structure to sometimes delve into passive voice? THe numerous times I capitalized the second letter after capitalizing the first?

Do you get my point now?

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I find you quite the enjoyable sparring partner. I think that I find you hard to read, and I enjoy that. You make me exercise my brain.

Tiruin is actually a sentient glob of gelatin, who reacts to force by going with the flow.
Wobble wobble~

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Apologies. Mid-20th century in origin American slang that has become more generalized in meaning.

...So you trusted me in PMs, then you decided that I'm being insincere instead...? What part of my words gave that off?

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Perhaps you are bait, perhaps I genuinely suspect you. As I said elsewhere, I don't know what is "normal" for you, I only know what I saw when last we sparred. And I see strong similarities here to there. Does that mean we are on the same relative sides again? I don't know, but I assume it.

Which means?! What does that mean?? What am I doing?

Quote

And here we come up against the wall I faced in questioning based on mine own private knowledge. Of what does dear Tiruin refer to here, Superblackcat? She seems to opine that there is more to you than meets the eye. Are you indeed a better target than she is?

I have details on him dude, however I am awaiting his talk. He claims he's town, but withholds information from me in a polite (and somewhat cute) way...well, with subjective intervals on 'withhold'.

Quote

Also, I do believe that the general consensus is that there remains one final dopp, and the only so-far discovered alien is harmless, at worst, and proving quite helpful. The outside chance that Superblackcat is an alien is limited to him being a poor Survivor, as I found that he had No Role to speak of, and there is only one Alien that comes up as that to the Detective, n'est-ce pas?

Well unless Jim is an Exterminator or there's any sort of item that lets him do a faux-abduct, then yeah he's harmless. I believe there's one final dopp given the initial notice, (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=133676.msg4806797#msg4806797) unless there's a Rogue here.

Quote

Answered by confession, both from mind stealer and mind stolen. Jim took Caz' Assassin Bot and used it to kill RangerCado, of his own decision.

...Ah. Now it makes sense..Anyways, waiting on Toaster so I can detail all my everything on the missing case of Cado and the rest.

Quote

Au contraire, mon sœur, we have been eagerly awaiting your dulcet tones, to elucidate your view as to why it is that we are so wrong to suspect you.

...Well, given how the votes go, I'm pretty much staring at them with my mouth the tiniest bit agape at their...state of incredulity. Half of them aren't even serious.

On the lynch, SBC was one of my targets from yesterday--Me and Persus conferred last night and yea, my view on him flipped a radical 540 degrees. Meaning he ain't scummy to me in lieu of recent events anymore.

Quote

One, if nothing else happens this day, you have the lynch already. My proposal stemmed from laziness, i.e., letting sleeping votes lie, to butcher a metaphor.

Two, Town wins together, or loses together. Perhaps it's preferable from a certain standpoint to survive to the end of the game, even if Survival is not your wincon. I wouldn't know, I've never survived to the end, and where I learned to play, you only won if your side did and you were alive at the end.

I'm happy to die given our numbers, and sans any malevolent alien. UNLESS JIM IS A DOPP D:

Quote

    Jim Groovester - Used Military Scientist Stolen Mind [Mind Stealer] Alien
    Caz - Military Scientist [Assassin Bot - used]

    Toaster - Agent
    Persus13 - Observant Guard
    ToonyMan - Psychic Warden
    makeinu - Claimed Detective
    RangerCado - Human Intelligence Scientist [I know what he used.]

    Tiruin - Heroic Guard
    Superblackcat - Something something no role but there's something else


    TheDarkStar - Doppelganger (Anti-Tech Field)
    Imp - Tough Doppelganger

Yellow green == alien//either town or not.
I like these odds. I can die happy and still harangue people without any chance of losing for Town, unless there really is a malevolent alien or there are >1 dopps left remaining, or both!

So, makeinu, SBC has some words to say with you regarding your action, sir. I fully believe its on your action and why you got no role. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=133676.msg4845778;topicseen#msg4845778) I am waiting for his response though.


Meph: Short of someone being abducted--can an assassin bot kill anyone with an anti-tech field? I would like someone to test their assassin bot on a special someone but won't say who until he posts.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 3 brings death and release
Post by: Tiruin on December 20, 2013, 07:00:13 am

Waitwaitwait. makeinu: I find it curious how you found both the Mind Stealer and an Observant Guard at the same time. Given how the Guard works, shouldn't Persus be the one who'd get abducted and not Caz??

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 3 brings death and release
Post by: Persus13 on December 20, 2013, 08:00:32 am

Quote from: Tiruin on December 20, 2013, 07:00:13 am

Waitwaitwait. makeinu: I find it curious how you found both the Mind Stealer and an Observant Guard at the same time. Given how the Guard works, shouldn't Persus be the one who'd get abducted and not Caz??

I told him my role after he told me he was an observant guard.

Makeinu, if you're going to claim that Tiruin is scum, back up your case. the fact you just keep saying "there are similarities" doesn't fly with me.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 3 brings death and release
Post by: Tiruin on December 20, 2013, 08:09:53 am

Quote from: Persus13 on December 20, 2013, 08:00:32 am

Quote from: Tiruin on December 20, 2013, 07:00:13 am

Waitwaitwait. makeinu: I find it curious how you found both the Mind Stealer and an Observant Guard at the same time. Given how the Guard works, shouldn't Persus be the one who'd get abducted and not Caz??

I told him my role after he told me he was an observant guard.

Makeinu, if you're going to claim that Tiruin is scum, back up your case. the fact you just keep saying "there are similarities" doesn't fly with me.

O_o wat
..Um, so what I get is that you two talked since D2. And..he said he's an observant guard--I mean, you said the same to me and I believe you.

..So how did you guys know Jim? I mean the one I linked back there did check out his claim, however, its worded...strangely. Reword please, because I'm darn well confused.

Mephansteras: Can an abduction action bypass a player being Guarded? Redact that.

Quote

    Mind Control
    Pure Role-blockers
    Abductors
    Protectors
    Investigators
    Night Kills/Conversions (The War Vet (or equivalent) is sort of an exception, in that he'll kill anyone who targets them on THEIR turn, rather than his)

How in the world did you two even get together?!

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 3 brings death and release
Post by: Toaster on December 20, 2013, 09:12:40 am

Jim:

Quote from: Jim Groovester on December 19, 2013, 11:45:33 pm

Jim stays home?

But Mind Stealing is a roleblock + infallible role inspect + infallible alignment inspect + role eraser + wincon adoption. It's probably the most potent role in here right now.

You're right.  Consider me a supporter of the Makeinu Amendment (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=133676.msg4849333#msg4849333).


Tiruin:

Quote from: Tiruin on December 20, 2013, 02:18:01 am

Toaster: Why did you target me last night?

I didn't.

Quote from: Tiruin on December 20, 2013, 02:18:01 am

Because seriously, that whole 'Why did you kill x' always jives me along the lines of 'I don't have any real suspicions so I'll sling this sack of mud at someone else and look at their reply'. Meaning: I don't like your tactics. It's obvious.

Well, it's obvious that you didn't at this point.  I didn't mention this publicly, but I did PM it to Makeinu (whom I believe is extremely town):  Ranger claimed to me late D2.  He said that if he died in the night to suspect you.  Since he did*, I decided to blindfire vote you and see what came up.  It's really irrelevant now.

*This is technically not true, since it was a morning kill.

In any case, as has been said, the case on you is elimination.  It sucks, but everyone else besides you and SBC has some form of corroboration toward their townhood.


Speaking of SBC:  Are you an alien survivor with a shield, whose shield ate last night's NK?  If you are, that's fine, you can still win with us; but you better claim it now.  If you don't and you come back alien, you'll probably be lynched tomorrow.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 3 brings death and release
Post by: makeinu on December 20, 2013, 09:41:12 am

Short reply.

Tiruin: you've mostly been defensive, deflective, reactive, this game. I will go back and read again, but there's very little on the offense (almost said offensive, but double meaning, grammar, too hard sentence right now :/) That's what gives me the not-Town feel.

Jim and I started talking because of my investigation of him.

Persus and I started talking before that because I reached out in trust; I had a good feeling.

Persus and Jim have not spoken directly that I'm aware.

Toaster, a thought occurred to me late last night. Have you been checked/cleared? I can't recall, but if I'm remembering right, the answer is no. Technically, that makes three in need, with SBC being half-cleared, sort of.

My role only gives me role on a target. That means SBC can be human, dopp, or Alien Survivor. Those are the three that return "no role" as public role.

More later...

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 3 brings death and release
Post by: Toaster on December 20, 2013, 09:46:04 am

Makeinu:  You're correct that I haven't.  How about if we get to tomorrow with no leads, Jim mindsteals me?

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 3 brings death and release
Post by: Tiruin on December 20, 2013, 10:14:32 am

Quote from: Toaster on December 20, 2013, 09:12:40 am

Jim:

Quote from: Jim Groovester on December 19, 2013, 11:45:33 pm

Jim stays home?

But Mind Stealing is a roleblock + infallible role inspect + infallible alignment inspect + role eraser + wincon adoption. It's probably the most potent role in here right now.

You're right.  Consider me a supporter of the Makeinu Amendment (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=133676.msg4849333#msg4849333).


Tiruin:

Quote from: Tiruin on December 20, 2013, 02:18:01 am

Toaster: Why did you target me last night?

I didn't.

Quote from: Tiruin on December 20, 2013, 02:18:01 am

Because seriously, that whole 'Why did you kill x' always jives me along the lines of 'I don't have any real suspicions so I'll sling this sack of mud at someone else and look at their reply'. Meaning: I don't like your tactics. It's obvious.

Well, it's obvious that you didn't at this point.  I didn't mention this publicly, but I did PM it to Makeinu (whom I believe is extremely town):  Ranger claimed to me late D2.  He said that if he died in the night to suspect you.  Since he did*, I decided to blindfire vote you and see what came up.  It's really irrelevant now.

*This is technically not true, since it was a morning kill.

In any case, as has been said, the case on you is elimination.  It sucks, but everyone else besides you and SBC has some form of corroboration toward their townhood.


Speaking of SBC:  Are you an alien survivor with a shield, whose shield ate last night's NK?  If you are, that's fine, you can still win with us; but you better claim it now.  If you don't and you come back alien, you'll probably be lynched tomorrow.

Ahh, yes. The plot thickens as the props behind the stage take the fore.

Let me illuminate you on this case: What Ranger tells you, he tells me--and more. He trusted me. I trusted him (I said that he'd be safe tonight, verbatim--I didn't think he'd be a target so I didn't protect him, and I believed he wouldn't be a target), and he trusted me. Even more than he trusted you (while it does seem like a duel from his PoV, it doesn't in mine; he sees you or me as scum, I do not. I believe you're town-ish, despite your...weak excuse for a vote placement. Excuse my English.)

Given how we can quote insider PM's with all else but Meph's Role/Mod PMs, I'm sure you're familiar of the Cado-speak? Answer me first: Why pull such a weak thrust at me there? Your sword is unsharpened, and given the mutual effect we share with Cado, I figure why your vote is still on me--the excuse of elimination is weak and paltry in the big picture; scum have lied about their role, and it ain't me.

Quote

So, and only you are getting told this, I had a backup plan. I told both of you who I was, and not to trust the other if I died tonight. Naturally, if one of you were our last Dopp, then the other was likely to heed my words. Currently, I trust you a lot more than Toaster, especially since he pretty much dropped it the second after I told him. My chances of hitting our last Dopp player were still pretty low either way, and I'm a gambling man when it comes to online games. (Never gonna play any game with my own money on the line) So I did have a small amount of Distrust still, but I trust you fully now and I really hope I'm not wrong on this. :)

^{Y'know, I like how it copy-pastes even emoticons. That's brilliant forum work.}
Now the bolded part isn't in the original-I highlighted it for emphasis.
What did you drop there?

Roleclaim:
I am who I am. I protected Imp N1 - due to my personal outlook on her and her analytical acumen, my claim and my actions D2 were to inspire quite much anything, I didn't have a goal for my claim, as it had no value other than me being a literal martyr. I sorta played a gambit that Imp was town, hence my defense of her--Though, I suspect those who out me as scum because of that; sense being that if I'm scum, I don't blatantly defend my teammates on the noose when the case drops to that point (ie Previous suspicion raise on valid notion).

N2 - makeinu. We've a Detective (and I guess I'll spill what SBC said anyways). Gumshoes are usually important and given our chum-talk last night (quite the joker, silly man. :I) I surmised that he'd be a better target for scum. So I defended him [Me and Persus agreed to protect one or the other. Guard-talk in betwix the lines.]. Even before N2, I decided to protect makeinu because he claimed Detective and by his reasoning beforehand.

Funny how it turns out right now, eh? The votes? One vote being a placement, Toony's being a sillyvote, makeinu being a...weird unspecified and unexplained vote (I hate labels dude. Do not blame me for my assertive aggression on you.), and his come up on a deal of me or the other? It's too shallow--while I'd probably have valid room for complaint on the scumteam's performance, I'm sure the last one would've been smart enough to create a good smokescreen given the probability of PMs and such.

Scumlist:
:) ~
Jim/Caz (I hate you but since you're clear via accomplice... :I)
Persus - all three are in the higher echelon of innocence

ToonyMan - would tie with makeinu because of his acting..but damn me if empirical evidence states otherwise to the action before. The sacrifice of an ally in that one case? Very doubtful if he's scum. Comparing it to myself..bleh, not worth it.
Toaster - While I've been in correspondence with Ranger, we discussed you in thoroughness. He, unlike what makeinu claims, sees a lot of townpoints in me--the reasons for him not trusting you, he said would be withheld until morning (see up), but then chose to PM me a bit before day start just to be sure.

makeinu - Personally, I feel betrayed, but that's not important--what is important is how he's..bargaining an either/or and presenting the course of elimination. It's a simple reason, and surely that what anyone could've done, however I present another counter reason: Look between the lines. How in the world is that going to work if a spanner is introduced in the works? Sure, we've at best-1 dopp, precluding any malevolent alien-but that does not mean we can denounce and discard people like random.
Superblackcat: Until he speaks, lies in this area, vaguely between makeinu and the rest. Prior actions speak--what redeems him is his questioning nature, though that is also nebulous in my eye, but seemingly points towards a good end on my thoughts...somehow.
~ :(

---

I want a clean game as anyone else, and now knowing that the assassin bot is used (really, Caz. You used it on RangerCado without even letting him speak?!). Very smart move.
EXPOUND ON WHY YOU DID SO EVEN THOUGH EVIDENCE MOSTLY POINTS TO YOU AS INNOCENT!

PS: Toaster: Confirm for me. RangerCado has the Surveillance System, aye?

PPE: makeinu..Wow, that's such an abject accusation, that I'm really insulted. Go burn, makeinu. Explain how you got TWO people in cahoots given your PM claims. Explain how you're seeing 'similarities' with my BM play and my -here- play.

I hate metaknowledge, and I will act like a vengeful peasant who has been driven off her land, her family held against her, placated only by the thought of her being labeled as...stuff. Like a witch, that she's out 'for the better good'. In short, I hate labels. I hate being 'known' because of past deeds, hence why I make my playstyle amorphous--always varying, shifting, and non-conventional. Unorthodox, probably.

If I've been "mostly defensive, deflective" and even "reactive", then hit me buddy. I trusted you. Do you think that thing of being snowed out goes only one way? Hell no.

Is my lack of assertion a scumtell for you? Aww..guess we're not all choleric temperaments here, are we? Some of us are Phlegmatic//Melancholic. Some of us prefer the scientific method to solve scumminess. Some of us have been too entrenched in a Philosopher's viewpoint to try the direct method.

I question before attack. I tend to ensure my targets are valid, in the least. WHile my intuition plays a role here--I often override it in lieu of where my analysis goes. You see me as defensive/deflective and reactive? Why not hit me there in the BM Sprint as I did say: I need criticism. Here I go and get bitten on metaknowledge because I'm acting the same?

Oh, and go call that an OMGUS--My reasons are basically on how your actions come and go. It's becoming more flippant than not, and your wording adds to the seriousness of the case.

Quote from: makeinu on December 20, 2013, 09:41:12 am

Jim and I started talking because of my investigation of him.

Persus and I started talking before that because I reached out in trust; I had a good feeling.

Persus and Jim have not spoken directly that I'm aware.

In which you lied to Persus?!
Mmm, nice trust. I begin to doubt how much you've told me either, however its mostly been good banter, now that I see.

Guess what, I was the one to initiate conversation with you--not the other way around. Guess that implies much on how you trust me in-game, huh.
You said

Quote

Because I didn't feel that I could trust you. I'm still not sure, but there's nothing to hide now, is there?

behind the lines about why you didn't PM me. Good reason, but I've to sate my curiosity. What was there to hide? Why lie at this time, when there is only one scum left? If you think I'm scum--given that the evidence was placed at the end of D2, then what did you have to tell me other than 'I'm telling Jim that I'll be targeting SBC tonight'.

Wait, that's what you did. Leave me in the dark with all this then? So be it.

---

---

As for SBC: He claimed that he had a shield assigned to him as a passive--and gained another one..something like that (while the logs are forwarded to Meph, I..don't have them at the moment and will ask Meph for it..if that's even possible. I'm new to this PM nonsense). Firstly, he said what he said could be fraught with lies.

> From what I could glean--he said he has both an Anti-Tech//Mind shield. He explained that makeinu isn't...'what he seems to be', paraphrased and that makeinu hit a shield which is why you got a No Role thing.
> He tells me he is town. I'm more inclined to believe that given the abrupt change @D2 end. However, he was...reluctant or probably withdrawn when pressed on the matters of his role. He says he's town, but can't tell me his role. I went in detail on communicating the prospect of me being dopp/town and the reasons on why it won't darn matter to me if he tells me either way (He told me after Day start btw, when I couldn't connect to Bay12) Still, it lies in the murk, and all my memory retains are these notes.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 3 brings death and release
Post by: Toaster on December 20, 2013, 10:27:59 am

Tiruin:

Quote from: Tiruin on December 20, 2013, 10:14:32 am

Given how we can quote insider PM's with all else but Meph's Role/Mod PMs, I'm sure you're familiar of the Cado-speak? Answer me first: Why pull such a weak thrust at me there? Your sword is unsharpened, and given the mutual effect we share with Cado, I figure why your vote is still on me--the excuse of elimination is weak and paltry in the big picture; scum have lied about their role, and it ain't me.

Quote

So, and only you are getting told this, I had a backup plan. I told both of you who I was, and not to trust the other if I died tonight. Naturally, if one of you were our last Dopp, then the other was likely to heed my words. Currently, I trust you a lot more than Toaster, especially since he pretty much dropped it the second after I told him. My chances of hitting our last Dopp player were still pretty low either way, and I'm a gambling man when it comes to online games. (Never gonna play any game with my own money on the line) So I did have a small amount of Distrust still, but I trust you fully now and I really hope I'm not wrong on this. :)

^{Y'know, I like how it copy-pastes even emoticons. That's brilliant forum work.}
Now the bolded part isn't in the original-I highlighted it for emphasis.
What did you drop there?

From Ranger:

Quote from: RangerCado on December 18, 2013, 01:22:00 pm

I'm taking a risk and I know it, but I'm hoping I can trust you where I haven't before. I'm a Mad scientist with surveillance equipment. No one visited me last night. And if I die tonight, suspect Tiruin.

I said back "Information received" and nothing else.  I didn't trust him enough to claim anything back, so I let him know I had gotten his message and left it at that.

Quote from: Tiruin on December 20, 2013, 10:14:32 am

I want a clean game as anyone else, and now knowing that the assassin bot is used (really, Caz. You used it on RangerCado without even letting him speak?!). Very smart move.
EXPOUND ON WHY YOU DID SO EVEN THOUGH EVIDENCE MOSTLY POINTS TO YOU AS INNOCENT!

PS: Toaster: Confirm for me. RangerCado has the Surveillance System, aye?

The second is answered above (yes.)  The first shows you aren't paying attention- Caz didn't bot Ranger.  Jim did (you know, the guy he spend half of D2 going after hard?)

Quote from: Tiruin on December 20, 2013, 10:14:32 am

> From what I could glean--he said he has both an Anti-Tech//Mind shield. He explained that makeinu isn't...'what he seems to be', paraphrased and that makeinu hit a shield which is why you got a No Role thing.
> He tells me he is town. I'm more inclined to believe that given the abrupt change @D2 end. However, he was...reluctant or probably withdrawn when pressed on the matters of his role. He says he's town, but can't tell me his role. I went in detail on communicating the prospect of me being dopp/town and the reasons on why it won't darn matter to me if he tells me either way (He told me after Day start btw, when I couldn't connect to Bay12) Still, it lies in the murk, and all my memory retains are these notes.

This is interesting.  I'd love to hear more detail from both of you, actually, no.  I want to hear it straight from SBC first.


Superblackcat:  How about you try again with that roleclaim?

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 3 brings death and release
Post by: Caz on December 20, 2013, 11:07:17 am

I think Tiruin is undergoing some form of villainous breakdown.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 3 brings death and release
Post by: Caz on December 20, 2013, 11:35:33 am

Pro tip: If Tiruin was town, he'd be happy with the way things are going. There's only a couple of suspects left. Instead, the defensiveness has been turned to eleven. SBC's claim deserves checking out, but it's a simple measure to block them. Did anyone else other than Tiruin hear SBC's claim of a tech field? If it's actually true, it's slightly worrying. Would be nice if SBC could clear it up.

7 town remain, 1 dopp. (Do survivors count among town numbers? Unsure on this).

Even if Tiruin flips town, we still have a couple freelynches. The info we gain during this time will narrow out the suspects for an inevitable town win. Pretty damn sure about this.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 3 brings death and release
Post by: makeinu on December 20, 2013, 12:03:18 pm

Quote from: Tiruin on December 20, 2013, 10:14:32 am

Roleclaim:
I am who I am. I protected Imp N1 - due to my personal outlook on her and her analytical acumen, my claim and my actions D2 were to inspire quite much anything, I didn't have a goal for my claim, as it had no value other than me being a literal martyr. I sorta played a gambit that Imp was town, hence my defense of her--Though, I suspect those who out me as scum because of that; sense being that if I'm scum, I don't blatantly defend my teammates on the noose when the case drops to that point (ie Previous suspicion raise on valid notion).

Honestly, I don't "out you" as scum because of that, but I find it odd that you admit privately that your instinct was that Imp was dopp, but don't admit the same publicly.

Quote

I want a clean game as anyone else, and now knowing that the assassin bot is used (really, Caz. You used it on RangerCado without even letting him speak?!). Very smart move.
EXPOUND ON WHY YOU DID SO EVEN THOUGH EVIDENCE MOSTLY POINTS TO YOU AS INNOCENT!

HOW DO YOU KEEP MISSING WHAT HAPPENED WITH THE ASSASSIN BOT?

_{I can yell too...} :P

PPE:

Quote

makeinu..Explain how you got TWO people in cahoots given your PM claims.

Jim took convincing. I basically had to role-claim, as I'd originally tried to play it off as though I were speaking on behalf of the Detective, rather than claiming, and he wouldn't buy it. Even still, he lied to me about Caz's role, "in case I blabbed". Fair enough, he had to know that, try as I might, I'd have to role-claim to support my arguments sooner or later, and I'll say again that I didn't out the player publicly, only the role.

Problem was, I'd gone to Persus with that knowledge first. Important: I never asked Persus his role. He revealed to me; I only asked flavor. Funny story, I had to point out to Persus that he was neglecting to CC Meph on our PMs, and he mentioned that he hadn't noticed the Reply All button; this all happened around the time he was telling me he was an Observant Guard...

Irony.

Quote

Explain how you're seeing 'similarities' with my BM play and my -here- play.

I hate metaknowledge, and I will act like a vengeful peasant who has been driven off her land, her family held against her, placated only by the thought of her being labeled as...stuff. Like a witch, that she's out 'for the better good'. In short, I hate labels. I hate being 'known' because of past deeds, hence why I make my playstyle amorphous--always varying, shifting, and non-conventional. Unorthodox, probably.

If I've been "mostly defensive, deflective" and even "reactive", then hit me buddy. I trusted you. Do you think that thing of being snowed out goes only one way? Hell no.

I hate metaknowledge, the use of it, especially to justify a lynch, more than you can know. The forum I learned mafia in, I stopped playing for a long while, because I became known as a "dangerous player", someone that had to be eliminated early, no matter my role or alignment, because I'm good at finding the tells and breaking the scum. A lot of our players find themselves in that position. One never lies, ever, and shuts up when she's scum. One always initiates information sharing, unless he's scum.

It. Sucks. I hate it. Way more than you can know.

But your playstyle is not as amorphous as I believe you'd like to think. No one's is. We all have tells, just like in poker or any other mental game (all games are mental in the end).

Quote

Is my lack of assertion a scumtell for you? Aww..guess we're not all choleric temperaments here, are we? Some of us are Phlegmatic//Melancholic. Some of us prefer the scientific method to solve scumminess. Some of us have been too entrenched in a Philosopher's viewpoint to try the direct method.

Yes, actually, it is. I spent some time last night hunting down roles where Tiruin was Town, and learning how she plays from that angle. You're much more aggressive in questioning under those circumstances. More to the point, you're more probing. And more uncertain. It shows. But more importantly, all metaknowledge aside, if you're really Town, you don't have any reason to be defensive, reactive, deflective. Because you're secure in the knowledge that, in the end, the role flip will tell your innocence. And I don't see that security.

Maybe that's the amorphous playstyle you reference. Maybe you really are Town, and you're just playing overly cautious to throw everyone off. If that's the case, it's working.

And please, do not lecture me on using the scientific method in scum hunting. I'm the one quoted Occam's Razor yesterday while hunting Imp, remember? Science, and logic, hung Imp by her own petard yesterday.

Quote

Quote from: makeinu on December 20, 2013, 09:41:12 am

Jim and I started talking because of my investigation of him.

Persus and I started talking before that because I reached out in trust; I had a good feeling.

Persus and Jim have not spoken directly that I'm aware.

In which you lied to Persus?!
Mmm, nice trust. I begin to doubt how much you've told me either, however its mostly been good banter, now that I see.

Where do you get that I lied to Persus? I never told Persus anything about talking to Jim, nor vice versa. As much as I wanted them to trust each other, they didn't, publicly and privately, and had either known that I was talking to the other, they'd have lost all trust in me entirely. They didn't ask, I didn't tell.

Quote

Guess what, I was the one to initiate conversation with you--not the other way around. Guess that implies much on how you trust me in-game, huh.
You said

Quote

Because I didn't feel that I could trust you. I'm still not sure, but there's nothing to hide now, is there?

behind the lines about why you didn't PM me. Good reason, but I've to sate my curiosity. What was there to hide? Why lie at this time, when there is only one scum left? If you think I'm scum--given that the evidence was placed at the end of D2, then what did you have to tell me other than 'I'm telling Jim that I'll be targeting SBC tonight'.

Wait, that's what you did. Leave me in the dark with all this then? So be it.

Yeah, you approached me. I stated why I didn't approach you, and the reference to "nothing to hide"? I'd already role-claimed and revealed what I knew. That's the "nothing to hide".

And there you go again with accusing me of lies, with no evidence to back it.

Here's my last bit on why I think you're acting suspicious. Games here don't require you to survive to win with your side, only that your side win. Were I in your shoes my response to what you are facing now, if I had no better argument than what you've presented would be, simply, lynch me.

I'll flip Town. Then you'll know that one of the others still on the uncleared list is the last dopp.

That's my sacrifice for the good of the Town.

Tell me, Town Tiruin, why isn't that your approach?

Notice how I don't pressure Toaster after he says:

Quote from: Toaster on December 20, 2013, 09:46:04 am

Makeinu:  You're correct that I haven't.  How about if we get to tomorrow with no leads, Jim mindsteals me?

Because that's what Town would say. Plus, by deliberately lynching one uncleared suspect and blocking the other, we force the third (Toaster, for those playing the home game) to not kill in the event we're all wrong, for fear of outing themselves.

---

---

Unvote.

Quote

As for SBC: He claimed that he had a shield assigned to him as a passive--and gained another one..something like that (while the logs are forwarded to Meph, I..don't have them at the moment and will ask Meph for it..if that's even possible. I'm new to this PM nonsense). Firstly, he said what he said could be fraught with lies.

> From what I could glean--he said he has both an Anti-Tech//Mind shield. He explained that makeinu isn't...'what he seems to be', paraphrased and that makeinu hit a shield which is why you got a No Role thing.
> He tells me he is town. I'm more inclined to believe that given the abrupt change @D2 end. However, he was...reluctant or probably withdrawn when pressed on the matters of his role. He says he's town, but can't tell me his role. I went in detail on communicating the prospect of me being dopp/town and the reasons on why it won't darn matter to me if he tells me either way (He told me after Day start btw, when I couldn't connect to Bay12) Still, it lies in the murk, and all my memory retains are these notes.

Thank you for putting Superblackcat right back at the top of my list, just where Max White had left him before.

Two shields. Not one, but two. Started with one, gained another. I'll take that as a tacit admission of Alien. And I hit one of those shields last night, which allegedly explains the "No role" result. Okay, fine, which Shield did I hit, pray tell?

Would that be the one that blocks a night kill?

Quote

Personal Shield: Works once as though guarded by the Guardian. Will also protect against Morningkills.

Or the one that blocks a Psychic reading?

Quote

Mind Shield: The Mind Shield gives the user a Mind Shield. Should the user already possess a Natural Mind Shield, it will be upgraded to an Advanced Mind Shield. An advanced mind shield provides the same protection as a normal mind shield, but has the added benefit of always appearing to work to the one using psychic powers against the user. Telepaths will always receive a 'Survive' result, Psychic Wardens will not know their power is blocked, and so on. Stacks with a natural or tech-based Anti-Tech Field.

Or, holy stinking guano load, Batman, NEITHER FUCKING ONE, SINCE NEITHER FUCKING ONE STOPS A DETECTIVE FROM GETTING A ROLE READ?


Superblackcat, EXPLAIN, PLEASE, HOW DESPITE ALL THE EVIDENCE TO THE CONTRARY, I'M NOT WHAT I SEEM. And what kind of nasty little Alien are you, hmmm? Not a Survivor, I'll warrant, because you're not playing smart to survive, but there IS that "no role" result to consider, so you can't be much else. Except for dopp. Seems to my reading that every other Alien will flop a role when targeted.

So which lie are you telling about who you are?

Amended Makeinu Amendment:

Quote from: makeinu on December 20, 2013, 12:25:40 am

Today we lynch Superblackcat.

Tonight, in this order:

Toony blocks Tiruin.
Jim Mind Steals ToonyMan. If dopp, we'll know, if Town, Jim wins with Town.
Persus guards makeinu.
makeinu rolecops Persus, to check him for Dopp Leader status. 'No role' result belies the guard claim.
Toaster checks for race on Superblackcat.

Persus and ToonyMan will be cleared completely, or one outed as Dopp Leader. Superblackcat flops human, Dopp Leader, or Alien Survivor; any way, we'll know him for sure.

If, come morning, there's no dopp flip from all that, or a night kill, then Toaster and Tiruin are the only ones not thoroughly cleared. Lynch one, mind-steal the other, or draw it out two days longer, doesn't matter.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 3 brings death and release
Post by: Mephansteras on December 20, 2013, 12:19:23 pm

The Whiteboard
makeinu: Persus13, Tiruin
Superblackcat: makeinu
Tiruin: Caz, ToonyMan, Toaster

---

Day ends ~5pm Pacific Monday

Quote from: Tiruin on December 20, 2013, 06:54:04 am

Meph: Short of someone being abducted--can an assassin bot kill anyone with an anti-tech field? I would like someone to test their assassin bot on a special someone but won't say who until he posts.

An assassin bot will not effect a player with an anti-tech field.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 3 brings death and release
Post by: Toaster on December 20, 2013, 01:18:26 pm

Makeinu: I see a possible explanation for the "two shields" bit, but I'm not going to say what it is until Mr. Cat comes forward and corrects his claim.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 3 brings death and release
Post by: makeinu on December 20, 2013, 01:29:41 pm

Quote from: Toaster on December 20, 2013, 01:18:26 pm

Makeinu: I see a possible explanation for the "two shields" bit, but I'm not going to say what it is until Mr. Cat comes forward and corrects his claim.

I'll bow to greater knowledge of Paranormal games, but I don't read anything in those that blocks investigations, or role-blocks. Only kills.

I'd very much like to see his side of Tiruin's vague description of their convo.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 3 brings death and release
Post by: ToonyMan on December 20, 2013, 02:00:59 pm

@Tiruin:
Sorry about throwing role-power around as evidence instead of scum-hunting more.  But there's only one dopp left (and an alien I'm guessing) to stand in the way of almost seven town players that have all claimed at this point.  To ignore our powers is silly!

---

I don't mind if SBC or Tiruin is lynched.  I'll hold mine on Tiruin for now though.  Depending on who's lynched I'll follow through with the according Makeinu plan.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 3 brings death and release
Post by: Superblackcat on December 20, 2013, 03:48:52 pm

Alright Makeinu, I'll tell you what I told Tir.

I have 2 shields, I thought you had a scanner, because That'd be the reason why you hit a shield. I'm not sure what you do have, but that would be the only reason why you came up with a NR.

If that didn't happen. I guess these shields may extend farther to what I gleaned from when I skimmed through the roles...

I am technically town aligned. Note, Technically. I'm not a dopp.

After Tiruin's pressure all of last night, and then her blatant reveal of everything that I told her, I think my conclusion that people aren't to be trusted with important information is right. Thus, no information will come out.

No, I will not role-claim. I'm fine with dying tomorrow, But there are certain things I wish to do tonight.

It'd be nice of you guys if you could extend that far.

Alright.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 3 brings death and release
Post by: Toaster on December 20, 2013, 04:18:46 pm

Superblackcat:

Quote from: Superblackcat on December 20, 2013, 03:48:52 pm

No, I will not role-claim.

Suit yourself.

Superblackcat.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 3 brings death and release
Post by: Jim Groovester on December 20, 2013, 04:27:01 pm

Quote from: Superblackcat on December 20, 2013, 03:48:52 pm

I guess these shields may extend farther to what I gleaned from when I skimmed through the roles...

Oh, wow. What a remarkable coincidence.

Claim up.

Superblackcat.

You know, your tech choices can be verified through tech trading.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 3 brings death and release
Post by: Persus13 on December 20, 2013, 04:38:25 pm

Quote from: Tiruin on December 20, 2013, 08:09:53 am

Quote from: Persus13 on December 20, 2013, 08:00:32 am

Quote from: Tiruin on December 20, 2013, 07:00:13 am

Waitwaitwait. makeinu: I find it curious how you found both the Mind Stealer and an Observant Guard at the same time. Given how the Guard works, shouldn't Persus be the one who'd get abducted and not Caz??

I told him my role after he told me he was an observant guard.

Makeinu, if you're going to claim that Tiruin is scum, back up your case. the fact you just keep saying "there are similarities" doesn't fly with me.

O_o wat
..Um, so what I get is that you two talked since D2. And..he said he's an observant guard--I mean, you said the same to me and I believe you.

Sorry, I meant I told him my role after he told me his inspect last night.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 3 brings death and release
Post by: Persus13 on December 20, 2013, 04:49:40 pm

I don't support makeinu's amendment to Toaster's plan. Abducting Toonyman would roleblock him and remove the power of Toonyman to roleblock someone else, right?

Quote from: Superblackcat on December 20, 2013, 03:48:52 pm

After Tiruin's pressure all of last night, and then her blatant reveal of everything that I told her, I think my conclusion that people aren't to be trusted with important information is right. Thus, no information will come out.

If it's important information, if it's public it's all the better. Your life depends on it.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 3 brings death and release
Post by: Jim Groovester on December 20, 2013, 04:53:58 pm

Roleblocks happen before abductions, so me abducting him doesn't prevent his roleblock from happening.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 3 brings death and release
Post by: Persus13 on December 20, 2013, 04:54:45 pm

Quote from: Jim Groovester on December 20, 2013, 04:53:58 pm

Roleblocks happen before abductions, so me abducting him doesn't prevent his roleblock from happening.

Oh, in that case, nevermind.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 3 brings death and release
Post by: Caz on December 20, 2013, 05:10:15 pm

Quote from: Superblackcat on December 20, 2013, 03:48:52 pm

No, I will not role-claim. I'm fine with dying tomorrow, But there are certain things I wish to do tonight.

This is not town behaviour. You fakeclaiming townie on top of that makes you almost as scummy as Tiruin.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 3 brings death and release
Post by: Persus13 on December 20, 2013, 05:14:30 pm

Anyone else think SBC's a kook?

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 3 brings death and release
Post by: Jim Groovester on December 20, 2013, 05:16:41 pm

With two shields he has to be an alien of some sort, either Operative or Exterminator.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 3 brings death and release
Post by: Persus13 on December 20, 2013, 05:17:44 pm

Quote from: Jim Groovester on December 20, 2013, 05:16:41 pm

With two shields he has to be an alien of some sort, either Operative or Exterminator.

Okay.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 3 brings death and release
Post by: Mephansteras on December 20, 2013, 07:17:52 pm

The Whiteboard
makeinu: Persus13, Tiruin
Superblackcat: Jim Groovester, makeinu, Toaster
Tiruin: Caz, ToonyMan

---

Day ends ~5pm Pacific Monday

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 3 brings death and release
Post by: makeinu on December 20, 2013, 08:16:22 pm

Quote from: Superblackcat on December 20, 2013, 03:48:52 pm

I am technically town aligned. Note, Technically. I'm not a dopp.

Hmm, an Alien that's technically Town aligned that has a night action and two tech slots, but no visible role.

Nope, sorry, I don't see it.

If you're the Agent Operative, you have ZERO reason not to claim. If you're the Survivor, you have ZERO reason not to claim.

At least we know that, if your claim of starting with a Shield is correct, you're not a Spore Spreader.

Where'd you get the second one from anyway, hmm?

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 3 brings death and release
Post by: makeinu on December 20, 2013, 08:17:29 pm

Forgot to add: if you're anything else, you're not even technicallt Town aligned.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 3 brings death and release
Post by: Superblackcat on December 21, 2013, 02:12:11 am

Let me rephrase that, I'm not 'technically' Town aligned... I could be...

Shields
I have a natural one, and received the other one

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 3 brings death and release
Post by: Tiruin on December 21, 2013, 02:25:39 am

Quote from: Caz on December 20, 2013, 11:07:17 am

I think Tiruin is undergoing some form of villainous breakdown.

wat. :I

Reading up. Net errors are hilarious and annoying.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 3 brings death and release
Post by: Tiruin on December 21, 2013, 02:28:13 am

Quote from: Toaster on December 20, 2013, 10:27:59 am

I said back "Information received" and nothing else.  I didn't trust him enough to claim anything back, so I let him know I had gotten his message and left it at that.

...Huh. Ok?

Quote from: Tiruin on December 20, 2013, 10:14:32 am

I want a clean game as anyone else, and now knowing that the assassin bot is used (really, Caz. You used it on RangerCado without even letting him speak?!). Very smart move.
EXPOUND ON WHY YOU DID SO EVEN THOUGH EVIDENCE MOSTLY POINTS TO YOU AS INNOCENT!

PS: Toaster: Confirm for me. RangerCado has the Surveillance System, aye?

The second is answered above (yes.)  The first shows you aren't paying attention- Caz didn't bot Ranger.  Jim did (you know, the guy he spend half of D2 going after hard?)
[/quote]
...I was under the notion that Jim can only steal Minds, and not items. It is very weird that he stole Caz' item, but it makes sense that if your mind is stolen, so is how your operation of said item.

Jim: Redirect that question to you. Why did you kill Cado without letting him speak? Why did you waste an assassin bot? If you did answer this, link me please.

Quote

This is interesting.  I'd love to hear more detail from both of you, actually, no.  I want to hear it straight from SBC first.

I literally can't say anything else but that, because that's everything.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 3 brings death and release
Post by: Tiruin on December 21, 2013, 02:31:09 am

Quote from: makeinu on December 20, 2013, 12:03:18 pm

Quote from: Tiruin on December 20, 2013, 10:14:32 am

Roleclaim:
I am who I am. I protected Imp N1 - due to my personal outlook on her and her analytical acumen, my claim and my actions D2 were to inspire quite much anything, I didn't have a goal for my claim, as it had no value other than me being a literal martyr. I sorta played a gambit that Imp was town, hence my defense of her--Though, I suspect those who out me as scum because of that; sense being that if I'm scum, I don't blatantly defend my teammates on the noose when the case drops to that point (ie Previous suspicion raise on valid notion).

Honestly, I don't "out you" as scum because of that, but I find it odd that you admit privately that your instinct was that Imp was dopp, but don't admit the same publicly.

I wavered on my judgement on Imp ok?! >_<

Quote from: Caz on December 20, 2013, 11:35:33 am

Pro tip: If Tiruin was town, he'd be happy with the way things are going. There's only a couple of suspects left. Instead, the defensiveness has been turned to eleven. SBC's claim deserves checking out, but it's a simple measure to block them. Did anyone else other than Tiruin hear SBC's claim of a tech field? If it's actually true, it's slightly worrying. Would be nice if SBC could clear it up.

7 town remain, 1 dopp. (Do survivors count among town numbers? Unsure on this).

Even if Tiruin flips town, we still have a couple freelynches. The info we gain during this time will narrow out the suspects for an inevitable town win. Pretty damn sure about this.

I'm happy the way things are going. I'm not happy with being lynched on grounds of 'elimination'. It's stupid and a weak reasoning to follow--one because I know my darn role. Two because people aren't thinking. Three is that you really are a jerk with words.
@Orange: You really aren't thinking. >_> If I flip town, what will anyone gain? One less darn suspect, and no lead towards who else is scum! Do I see anyone else suspecting those who are 'cleared via elimination'? No.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 3 brings death and release
Post by: Tiruin on December 21, 2013, 02:43:41 am

Quote from: makeinu on December 20, 2013, 12:03:18 pm

But your playstyle is not as amorphous as I believe you'd like to think. No one's is. We all have tells, just like in poker or any other mental game (all games are mental in the end).

I will be laughing at your face, then, given that you suspect me 'because I'm acting just like in BM Sprint'.
Cheesy excuse there. If my tells are the same, then doesn't that lead to speculation on your own analysis?

Quote

Yes, actually, it is. I spent some time last night hunting down roles where Tiruin was Town, and learning how she plays from that angle. You're much more aggressive in questioning under those circumstances. More to the point, you're more probing. And more uncertain. It shows. But more importantly, all metaknowledge aside, if you're really Town, you don't have any reason to be defensive, reactive, deflective. Because you're secure in the knowledge that, in the end, the role flip will tell your innocence. And I don't see that security.

Because you utterly fail to comprehend my viewpoint. I'm damn OK with myself being lynched for the good of the Town. I'm not in bleeding hell OK with being lynched UNDER THESE CIRCUMSTANCES. Going by process of elimination is the worst process at this point given how the game goes--I know my role and I'm trying to sway that sense out in lieu of any other process of scumhunting, but that process is just rapt with fallibility. If that process is the way in how you'll justify a lynch for tonight, then I already say that its a waste of a day!

I cannot see how you can't see that judging by the 'stability' of how all you are safe by that process.

Quote

Maybe that's the amorphous playstyle you reference. Maybe you really are Town, and you're just playing overly cautious to throw everyone off. If that's the case, it's working.

Uh huh? Yeah right. The same votes still stand, and their origins, though rooted in stoopidity placeholding, just dig down to the idea of 'process of elimination', wherein nobody explains that said process.

Quote

And please, do not lecture me on using the scientific method in scum hunting. I'm the one quoted Occam's Razor yesterday while hunting Imp, remember? Science, and logic, hung Imp by her own petard yesterday.

And Toony's claim. That played a role on her then; Occam's Razor is only a factor in understanding how Imp got lynched, and by my perspective, I don't see that as a viable factor in playing her lynch out given how I saw her posts and logic.

Quote

Where do you get that I lied to Persus? I never told Persus anything about talking to Jim, nor vice versa. As much as I wanted them to trust each other, they didn't, publicly and privately, and had either known that I was talking to the other, they'd have lost all trust in me entirely. They didn't ask, I didn't tell.

He said that you told him you were an Observant Guard! How can you miss this?! (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=133676.msg4849743#msg4849743) You didn't address it at all despite berating me (in a nice way and thanks) about my understanding.

Quote

Here's my last bit on why I think you're acting suspicious. Games here don't require you to survive to win with your side, only that your side win. Were I in your shoes my response to what you are facing now, if I had no better argument than what you've presented would be, simply, lynch me.

I. Bloody. Know. That. I'm arguing against the lynch because the process how it is rationalized is wrong in my eyes. That equals an error in how its being made, and how you being the one who keeps on pressing it under the notion of 'town shouldn't care because they're winning', in which how I understand it, gives credence to that fallibility!
I'm ok with throwing away my life. I'm not ok with throwing it away in vain under those reasons!

Quote

Tell me, Town Tiruin, why isn't that your approach?

See above.

Quote

Quote from: Referencing Toaster

Makeinu:  You're correct that I haven't.  How about if we get to tomorrow with no leads, Jim mindsteals me?

Because that's what Town would say. Plus, by deliberately lynching one uncleared suspect and blocking the other, we force the third (Toaster, for those playing the home game) to not kill in the event we're all wrong, for fear of outing themselves.

Ooo, "that's what Town would say" indeed. If Toaster was scum, and Jim mindsteals him, then there'd be an additional scumbag present! I don't even know if Toaster is Town and I'm leaning Town on him just because of the probability that there is only one last darn Dopp left.
That, and nobody bothers to tell me if a Mindstealer can Mindsteal after having stolen a role.

Quote

Thank you for putting Superblackcat right back at the top of my list, just where Max White had left him before.

Two shields. Not one, but two. Started with one, gained another. I'll take that as a tacit admission of Alien. And I hit one of those shields last night, which allegedly explains the "No role" result. Okay, fine, which Shield did I hit, pray tell?

What he told me, and what I inferred, was that you had a tech-something and said shield blocked it.
Color me confused on the same and why I really want SBC to talk.

Splitting post for better formatting.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 3 brings death and release
Post by: Tiruin on December 21, 2013, 02:58:15 am

Continuing on that case wherein I haven't read anything past makeinu's post.

This is what I asked SBC in PMs.

Quote

Hello luckyblackcat.

Regarding your role--I thank you for being critically-minded. However I have to inquire you about what you have--if you will not tell me your role; this helps my case as it starts to disperse those rumors and exposes who exactly is lying.

Queries (you can just say No):
> Did you trade tech with anyone else?
> Are you an Alien? You have my full word-regardless of my alignment-that I shall not speak against it. You may lie here, as anywhere else, though my notes will surely be stymied by this action.
> You may note I'm talking in full honesty with you--that's because I've nothing to lose. Aid me, or aid anyone else by selling this information. If you're town, as you say--then claim for the best of it. If scum, then falseclaim--I cannot stand by and see a probable newbie to massclaiming flail around without giving impartial advice.

> You mentioned 4 roles which may have those shields. Why the exacts?

His reply:

Quote

a) no trading

b) I may or may not harm the town, but am technically allied with the town.

c) Did I actually guess correctly? It was more of a flippant reply, I guessed ;P.

...So yeah I'm confused. What role can be "technically allied", other than an alien?

---

---

---

---

---

Quote from: Mephansteras on December 20, 2013, 12:19:23 pm

An assassin bot will not effect a player with an anti-tech field.

Jim...why...

---

Quote from: ToonyMan on December 20, 2013, 02:00:59 pm

@Tiruin:
Sorry about throwing role-power around as evidence instead of scum-hunting more.  But there's only one dopp left (and an alien I'm guessing) to stand in the way of almost seven town players that have all claimed at this point.  To ignore our powers is silly!

Sorry for being mean to you too! D:

Quote

I don't mind if SBC or Tiruin is lynched.  I'll hold mine on Tiruin for now though.  Depending on who's lynched I'll follow through with the according Makeinu plan.

>_>
<_<
Well, fine, I'll go with you here on why you want your vote staying on me. Just..look in between the lines back there.

---

---

Quote from: Superblackcat on December 20, 2013, 03:48:52 pm

Alright Makeinu, I'll tell you what I told Tir.

I have 2 shields, I thought you had a scanner, because That'd be the reason why you hit a shield. I'm not sure what you do have, but that would be the only reason why you came up with a NR.

If that didn't happen. I guess these shields may extend farther to what I gleaned from when I skimmed through the roles...

I am technically town aligned. Note, Technically. I'm not a dopp.

After Tiruin's pressure all of last night, and then her blatant reveal of everything that I told her, I think my conclusion that people aren't to be trusted with important information is right. Thus, no information will come out.

No, I will not role-claim. I'm fine with dying tomorrow, But there are certain things I wish to do tonight.

It'd be nice of you guys if you could extend that far.

Alright.

Kittycat!

I told everything out because I wanted to be sure of you--its more of an alignment thing than not. I want Town to get the best weapons they have against the last scum here, and given their elusiveness, I want them to be prepared. I want you to roleclaim or you'd be the target for tonight (either way, I'd want ToonyMan to block either myself or him, and Persus to Guard Toony.)
@Orange: That is a baseless conclusion! What I asked is information; something to give clarity to this nebulous cloud we're all wading in, and if you are TOWN ALIGNED, then you'd have no problem in claiming at all! I can protect you tonight to aid your goal given the technicality of being town aligned if that matters to you, but I suspect you--and I did suspect you before--because you didn't claim despite saying you're town aligned.

That is all. Please do not not trust us because of what I did. (You can not trust me instead..because I don't want you to become cynical or jaded. Because what you say there sounds less of an in-game moment and more of a personal thing. :/)

---

---

Quote from: Caz on December 20, 2013, 05:10:15 pm

Quote from: Superblackcat on December 20, 2013, 03:48:52 pm

No, I will not role-claim. I'm fine with dying tomorrow, But there are certain things I wish to do tonight.

This is not town behaviour. You fakeclaiming townie on top of that makes you almost as scummy as Tiruin.

...If..you...were..not..proven by Jim..then I'd be gunning for you right now for your...
Ugh.

---

---

Quote from: Superblackcat on December 21, 2013, 02:12:11 am

Let me rephrase that, I'm not 'technically' Town aligned... I could be...

Shields
I have a natural one, and received the other one

*punches wall*
You COULD BE TOWN ALIGNED, then, is what you're saying, right? Which means its subjective based on your choice, right?

General Question: Any role can naturally have a shield-ish item, right?

How did you receive the other one? *blatant rolefish, go!*

..Erghgh. Ok, future tip. If you've a role that isn't aligned with anyone else, and who probably would LOVE to kill everyone else, then just say 'No, I'm not telling you because I don't trust you', with 'you' pertaining to the player as a role instead of the person, when you chat/talk behind the lines. If you're a survivor, then...I really can't see the reluctance to claim. Survivors are more benevolent than not in any matter.

If you're an alien, however, and if you know you're up for the lynch, then I'd most likely advice you to claim--if it is benevolent, then I grant my word to protect you tonight, and to ask you to...well, do whatever unless you aren't town-aligned.

...However if you're the Exterminator..uh. I..would like to talk to you about that post-game.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 3 brings death and release
Post by: Tiruin on December 21, 2013, 03:38:31 am

Last post before I go.

Quote from: Jim Groovester on December 20, 2013, 05:16:41 pm

With two shields he has to be an alien of some sort, either Operative or Exterminator.

I've to expand the various roles here. He could also be a Survivor who has a natural shield and picked one of those shields from the small tech slot.

If an Operative...then where has the Exty kills been going?

EDIT:

Quote

Agent Operative
    Visible Role: Operative
    Race: Alien
    Goal: Based on Action
    Rules: This Operative is working with the government and has been sent along to assist an Agent in aiding the town. The Operative is not told who the Agent is until the First Night, however. In addition, the government has no way of knowing if the Agent is still human. The Operative should use caution when contacting the agent.
    Tech: 1 Medium and 2 Small Slots
    Victory: Town wins

Superblackcat: Are you this guy?

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 3 brings death and release
Post by: makeinu on December 21, 2013, 03:44:33 am

Quote

Uh huh? Yeah right. The same votes still stand, and their origins, though rooted in stoopidity placeholding, just dig down to the idea of 'process of elimination', wherein nobody explains that said process.

Check the vote count again. The votes haven't stood, they've shifted. Superblackcat is the current lynch target and will stay such until he starts making sense. I, for one am not going to dance around and play twenty questions to figure out what he is. This is all I need to know:

Quote from: Superblackcat on December 21, 2013, 02:12:11 am

Let me rephrase that, I'm not 'technically' Town aligned... I could be...

There is no "could be". If you're not Town aligned, then you need to be working for the Town's goal, or you're a threat.

Right now, all I see is threat.

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Shields
I have a natural one, and received the other one

From whom? When? Why? Explain why your shield blocked my role check?

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He said that you told him you were an Observant Guard! How can you miss this?! You didn't address it at all despite berating me (in a nice way and thanks) about my understanding.

I was going to ask if you have a reading comprehension problem, or are you simply not paying attention, but then I read Persus' post again, and that's wrong:

Quote from: Persus13 on December 14, 2013, 09:24:27 am

Quote from: makeinu on December 14, 2013, 01:04:10 am

Quote from: Persus13 on December 13, 2013, 11:33:26 pm

What kind of inspector are you?

Detective. Given the "public role" aspect of the dopps, I expect not actually all that useful.

Quote

Also, I plan on leading a lynch on Jim tomorrow if Sinlessmoon is lynched and turns up town.

He does have a solid case for a lynch on Sinlessmoon, even you have to agree with that (and are publicly).

Also, are we not supposed to CC Meph on these?

Yeah, we are, it's just that I have to type in his name everytime I reply to you and I forgot to do that. Is here a reply all button?

Also, I'm Observant.

Quoting Meph's reply since it's a forum mechanics matter addressed, not a game matter, original broken quote tag and all:

Quote from: Mephansteras on December 14, 2013, 11:12:46 am

Quote from: Persus13 on December 14, 2013, 09:24:27 am

Also, are we not supposed to CC Meph on these?

Yeah, we are, it's just that I have to type in his name everytime I reply to you and I forgot to do that. Is here a reply all button?

Also, I'm Observant.

Yes, as a matter of fact there is a reply all button.

(Sorry, the combination of that question and the guard type is kind of funny.)
[/quote]

Persus: Why the deceptive post?

Quote

I will be laughing at your face, then, given that you suspect me 'because I'm acting just like in BM Sprint'.
Cheesy excuse there. If my tells are the same, then doesn't that lead to speculation on your own analysis?

I never said you were 'acting just like in BM Sprint'. I said your style was different in games where you played Town. Sorry, yeah, meta, whatever. How do you learn to play against a pro? You watch them play. Sports team coaches spend countless hours watching their opponent's games. Pro poker players study other pro poker players intently, watching for the tells that show while they know the cards in play, so they can watch for those tells when they don't know the hand.

And that's why I suspect you. You don't have that self-assuredness that I expect to see from Town right now. You continue to be defensive, deflective, missing vital information, et cetera.

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And Toony's claim. That played a role on her then; Occam's Razor is only a factor in understanding how Imp got lynched, and by my perspective, I don't see that as a viable factor in playing her lynch out given how I saw her posts and logic.

Oh, her logic was good, very good, I won't fault that. Occam's Razor came to play when I had to decide whether her being dopp required more or less assumption than Caz being dopp and Jim's story a complete fabrication. Turns out it was less. And I saw in her posts a lot of soft logic, like she already had an idea who she was looking for and why, except that she was missing some details and fishing for them. Like role-claims.

Notice how her list, in response to me, her summary, during Day One, had only two slight Town reads? On two pretty blatantly Town players, in review and retrospect? I asked myself why, and all that I could come up with was that she already knew who was aligned where for the most part. Namely, she knew who not to target as scum, because she knew the scum.

To paraphrase:

Quote from: Imp on December 09, 2013, 04:47:00 am

Makeinu:

Quote from: makeinu on December 07, 2013, 11:44:09 pm

Imp:
You post impressive walls (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=133676.msg4812967#msg4812967) of (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=133676.msg4815291#msg4815291) text (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=133676.msg4816034#msg4816034). While I certainly appreciate the play advice, I'm having some difficulties in parsing any actual substance out of a lot of what I've linked there. Would it be considered rude if I requested you summarize your suspicions?

It's not rude.  I try to post my Scum/Town list and reasoning before the end of each Day.  Never know if you're going to be here the next Day or not, say it toDay or maybe not at all.

---

• Toaster:   Medium lean Scum.

---

• TheDarkStar:  Medium lean Scum.

---

• makeinu:   Medium lean Scum.

---

• Sinlessmoon:    Low lean Scum.

---

• Persus13:   Null read, slight lean Scum.

---

• Jim Groovester:  Null read, slight lean Scum.

---

• Max White:    Null read.

---

• Tiruin:  Null read.

---

• Caz:    Null read, very slight lean Town.

---

• RangerCado:   Slight lean Town.

Notice, too, the fairly obvious bus there on TheDarkStar, on a day when he was acting blatantly scum.

You still see nothing, in retrospect, that points to her having showed scum Day One, even the slightest bit. Her four highest scum reads were her scum buddy desperately asking to be bused, and three solid Town power roles. On Jim and Max (now Cat), the confirmed Aliens, null reads. Same for you, but you're down there on the Town side of the spectrum, aren't you?

So, yeah, more meta. A confirmed dopp role flip paints her words in a new light. Doesn't it.

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What he told me, and what I inferred, was that you had a tech-something and said shield blocked it.
Color me confused on the same and why I really want SBC to talk.

I don't color you confused at all. I very much want an answer as well, but so far, none is forthcoming. And barring that, along with the admissions above, Superblackcat is the ideal lynch today, and even then I doubt we're hitting the last dopp, merely eliminating a different threat.

Again, Superblackcat, which shield are you purporting I hit? Where did you get the second? What's your game, Mr. Might Be On The Town's Side Or Might Not I Don't Really Know And I'm Not Going To Say?

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He could also be a Survivor who has a natural shield and picked one of those shields from the small tech slot.

Survivor only has one Small Tech Slot, and I see nothing about a natural shield there. Regardless, no reason not to claim this. It's harmless to the Town.

Quote from: Tiruin on December 21, 2013, 03:38:31 am

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Agent Operative
    Visible Role: Operative
    Race: Alien
    Goal: Based on Action
    Rules: This Operative is working with the government and has been sent along to assist an Agent in aiding the town. The Operative is not told who the Agent is until the First Night, however. In addition, the government has no way of knowing if the Agent is still human. The Operative should use caution when contacting the agent.
    Tech: 1 Medium and 2 Small Slots
    Victory: Town wins

Superblackcat: Are you this guy?

No reason not to claim this either, as I stated before. That he refuses to claim paints a more dangerous picture, because this role is helpful to Town unless, and only unless, Toaster is dopp, and SBC chooses that alignment.

And if it's not dangerous, then he's jeopardizing the Town by forcing us to waste our efforts on him.

God damn it. That's a lot of WIFOM.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 3 brings death and release
Post by: Jim Groovester on December 21, 2013, 04:29:56 am

Tiruin, if you're so insistent that this is the wrong way things should go down, then what do you suggest?

Quote from: Tiruin on December 21, 2013, 02:28:13 am

Jim: Redirect that question to you. Why did you kill Cado without letting him speak? Why did you waste an assassin bot? If you did answer this, link me please.

He spoke on Day 2. With few suspects left I shot the one I felt strongest about. Allow me to remind you of my attacks on RangerCado during Day 2.

Psssssh, wasted. After I lied about Caz's role it confirmed him as a Military Scientist. It also eliminated one of my suspects. Hardly wasted at all!

Quote from: Superblackcat on December 21, 2013, 02:12:11 am

Let me rephrase that, I'm not 'technically' Town aligned... I could be...

Ohmigosh just claim already.

You can either die today because you're not claiming or you can live, depending on your role claim.

Quote from: Superblackcat on December 21, 2013, 02:12:11 am

Shields
I have a natural one, and received the other one

Exterminators start with a natural shield, their choice on whether it's Mind Shield or Anti-Tech Field.

Oh, I know, you must be an Exterminator.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 3 brings death and release
Post by: Tiruin on December 21, 2013, 08:37:53 am

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Check the vote count again. The votes haven't stood, they've shifted. Superblackcat is the current lynch target and will stay such until he starts making sense. I, for one am not going to dance around and play twenty questions to figure out what he is.

I, for one, care, and pretty much am ok with playing question-questions with people because questions = answers.

I do not want to waste a lynch because of people being hasty, and this note on your outlook on trying to analyze the kittycat is..curious.

Oh, and the 'check the vote count' was before I read along the lines and saw people shifting.

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There is no "could be". If you're not Town aligned, then you need to be working for the Town's goal, or you're a threat.

Right now, all I see is threat.

There is if you've a choice and are an Alien however.

Quote

I never said you were 'acting just like in BM Sprint'. I said your style was different in games where you played Town. Sorry, yeah, meta, whatever. How do you learn to play against a pro? You watch them play. Sports team coaches spend countless hours watching their opponent's games. Pro poker players study other pro poker players intently, watching for the tells that show while they know the cards in play, so they can watch for those tells when they don't know the hand.

Quote from: makeinu on December 19, 2013, 05:09:11 pm

3) Tiruin still has the highest scum read on my part. Sorry, meta here, but we did just finish Sprint, and you almost had me completely snowed there. And I'm seeing similar play patterns that I don't know are your normal meta or not.

Well you should fix your wording. Because if so, then the bolded part has no use at all in being in that statement.
^{...I'm a pro? awwww....}

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And that's why I suspect you. You don't have that self-assuredness that I expect to see from Town right now. You continue to be defensive, deflective, missing vital information, et cetera.

Oh bloody hell. I'm not self-assured because I'm ensuring myself to be assured by asking! You expect Town to know everything makeinu? I'm not self-assured here because I know there's something wrong with how the logic is going, and everyone else is being too lazy or narrowminded in their own (probably self-)righteousness to see it at the moment! I'm basing this because I know my role, and checking out SBC, he doesn't seem that malevolent--he's flailing, though, and he needs to talk more. A LOT MORE--You want to be calm because there's one dopp left? Fine. Go ahead and see innocents die without thought, but I? I want to see the right thing done here. I want to be more sure than the lax consciences others have here.

You say I'm being deflective and other notes on that point? Hmm, seems like a jaunting accusation, no? Why don't you back it up and begin quoting the evidence other than just stating it makeinu. I mean, your viewpoint may skew against me, and of course you're able to say that, but which parts and where make me scum? Surely you can do that.

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Notice how her list, in response to me, her summary, during Day One, had only two slight Town reads? On two pretty blatantly Town players, in review and retrospect? I asked myself why, and all that I could come up with was that she already knew who was aligned where for the most part. Namely, she knew who not to target as scum, because she knew the scum.

Valid. Check.

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You still see nothing, in retrospect, that points to her having showed scum Day One, even the slightest bit. Her four highest scum reads were her scum buddy desperately asking to be bused, and three solid Town power roles. On Jim and Max (now Cat), the confirmed Aliens, null reads. Same for you, but you're down there on the Town side of the spectrum, aren't you?

You judge from notice now, yet have you any prediction how it was then? I felt it best to count her off as town given how she gave her case--I was shocked just as much as you when she flipped scum and then saw myself in the future under suspicion because of that notice, no matter how trivial. But then I'm accused, only by label and not by evidence now.

What are you trying to forward? That Imp was protecting me by issuing that sort of notice? And as she flipped, she'll be examined and traced? Basic logic, but then...

It is interesting, your statement. Yet it issues WIFOM, more likely. Why? She could also be giving her honest-to-goodness reads back then on who she sincerely saw scumtells in. I was bloody blanked out then, because of my lacking performance (mostly due to RL). Tell me how that thing you put up there matters to our argument.

What in the world are you trying to imply.

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So, yeah, more meta. A confirmed dopp role flip paints her words in a new light. Doesn't it.

Oh yes, it does, but I am failing to see what you imply by that above.

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I don't color you confused at all. I very much want an answer as well, but so far, none is forthcoming. And barring that, along with the admissions above, Superblackcat is the ideal lynch today, and even then I doubt we're hitting the last dopp, merely eliminating a different threat.

I'm staying on the side of caution--as if he's really that scummy, I wonder why he even told me those details in the first place if the case, even subconsciously, forwards him as scum. And that note on the item you have, and the shield he has. I am unsure on whether he is scum and more of a self-preserving other given how..he has two shields. And he suspects you having an item instead of anything else regarding the 'No Role' thing.

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Survivor only has one Small Tech Slot, and I see nothing about a natural shield there. Regardless, no reason not to claim this. It's harmless to the Town.

Well people do have natural shields, right? *points at TheDarkStar*

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No reason not to claim this either, as I stated before. That he refuses to claim paints a more dangerous picture, because this role is helpful to Town unless, and only unless, Toaster is dopp, and SBC chooses that alignment.

And if it's not dangerous, then he's jeopardizing the Town by forcing us to waste our efforts on him.

God damn it. That's a lot of WIFOM.

Let me highlight something I believe we're all missing.

Quote

Agent Operative
    Visible Role: Operative
    Race: Alien
    Goal: Based on Action
    Rules: This Operative is working with the government and has been sent along to assist an Agent in aiding the town. The Operative is not told who the Agent is until the First Night, however. In addition, the government has no way of knowing if the Agent is still human. The Operative should use caution when contacting the agent.
    Tech: 1 Medium and 2 Small Slots
    Victory: Town wins

Orange. Purple.
I am unsure what this 'Goal' refers to, maybe how it shows to the role that seeks the Goal, but the purple declares it obvious. Town. Wins.

...Eh. K. I'm legitimately confused. SBC, get out here and talk. Because the only way I see the technicality is that you're operating under the notion of it being a free choice (which it is but that ignores the wincondition//Victory note).

Superblackcat: Why did you decide to tell me about your shields?

---

---

Quote from: Jim Groovester on December 21, 2013, 04:29:56 am

Tiruin, if you're so insistent that this is the wrong way things should go down, then what do you suggest?

That you people explain how, in that process of elimination, it goes down to me and SBC. SBC is more likely than not, an Alien. Me? Sure, you can say that 'OH SHE'S THE LAST DOPP!' but what evidence do I see other than that nebulous notion of 'P(rocess)o(f)E(limination)'?

What I'm forwarding is a reexamination of those who the general populace considers as 'clear' given that I'm forwarding my role and that if I'm lynched today, it'd be a waste. What'll be gained? One less suspect, sure, but other than that I see nothing against me other than what makeinu says, and despite that, what he says is vague.

What I suggest is that we spend the time we have now cross examining what we have at present. Who has resorted to PMs, and who contacted who, given how I see the PM chat has increased.

Quote

Psssssh, wasted. After I lied about Caz's role it confirmed him as a Military Scientist. It also eliminated one of my suspects. Hardly wasted at all!

I should've clarified..I'm saying that part because I talked to Cado--that hasn't occurred to you, but it played a vital factor in calling it 'a waste'.

PS: That's a DAYKILL item you've got there by the way. You could've eliminated him during the day after letting him speak.

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Assassin bot: Once per game the MS can use the assassin bot to perform a Morning Kill on another player. This attack cannot be traced back to the Mad Scientist.

Amirite, Mr. Cthulu?

Quote

Exterminators start with a natural shield, their choice on whether it's Mind Shield or Anti-Tech Field.

Oh, I know, you must be an Exterminator.

...This just gets weirder and weirder. Why didn't he even kill given that prospect. :v Blarghh.
..Wait, everyone can start with a natural shield (note that SBC said he got his first shield by 'luck' [or..did I not say that earlier?] and then stated he 'received' the next one.) Isn't any alien role with a Small Tech Slot able to pick a shield or not?
Bleh, anyway, waiting on SBC.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 3 brings death and release
Post by: Caz on December 21, 2013, 10:27:42 am

Quote from: Tiruin on December 21, 2013, 08:37:53 am

PS: That's a DAYKILL item you've got there by the way. You could've eliminated him during the day after letting him speak.

Quote

Assassin bot: Once per game the MS can use the assassin bot to perform a Morning Kill on another player. This attack cannot be traced back to the Mad Scientist.

Amirite, Mr. Cthulu?

Morning kill means it happens after nightkill but before the daystart. So, nope. Such discussion about why Jim used the kill is pretty pointless as he is confirmed town.

I do have to wonder on this quote, though:

Quote from: Tiruin on December 16, 2013, 10:02:42 pm

Quote from: Persus13 on December 16, 2013, 09:57:31 pm

Imp, I know you don't have much time, but can you please take a few minutes to answer this question and respond to my post to you as that would be nice... you scum.

That's a pretty nice shift there Persus.
Ellipsis + weak accusation. How does this statement here reference your past note on your last vote?

If Imp's your buddy, I'd think you'd be smarter than to actively defend her in posts. Eh. Getting into that is too much WIFOM, though.

Going down the list of small-chance suspects, sure.

MORE SCUM

Tiruin: observant guard, protected scum. has failed to make a vote that hit scum so far. very defensive, made many mistakes (claimed toaster targeted him, doesn't know what's happening with the assassin bot, etcetc. asking many questions that aren't related to hunting at all. seems like a smokescreen.
Superblackcat/Max: won't reveal his role, possible alien exterminator. this does not explain why he won't claim. it seems like a dumb move to me, rather than a scum move.
Toaster: has managed to stay under the radar for most of the game. claims to have been contacted by RangerCado who fingered Tiruin. claim unverifiable. a bad feeling, but toaster always seems a bit scummy so it's hard to tell.

(past this, i doubt it)

Persus13 - just scraped by day2, but eh, i just don't feel it. a good spread of suspects, a bit flighty, but seems normal playstyle.
makeinu: was voted by imp day1, lynched both scum, very high spread of cases and scumhunting. if he's dopp, my hat i will eat.
ToonyMan/Sinless: cop, outed imp and caused her lynch. if he was scum, he would've let imp replace, unless someone can tell me that toony's meta is being completely mental.

Jim - confirmed town for now
Caz - confirmed town

MORE TOWN

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 3 brings death and release
Post by: ToonyMan on December 21, 2013, 11:06:02 am

Hmmm yeah let's lynch the exterminator so they can't mess us up tonight.  Superblackcat.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 3 brings death and release
Post by: Tiruin on December 21, 2013, 11:12:59 am

Quote from: Caz on December 21, 2013, 10:27:42 am

I do have to wonder on this quote, though

Someone actually thinks.  ::)

Quote from: Caz on December 21, 2013, 10:27:42 am

Tiruin: observant guard, protected scum. has failed to make a vote that hit scum so far. very defensive, made many mistakes (claimed toaster targeted him, doesn't know what's happening with the assassin bot, etcetc. asking many questions that aren't related to hunting at all. seems like a smokescreen.

Or..probably not.
Correction: Heroic Guard. @bolded part: Like I bloody knew who they were. >_>
@Orange part: Would you stop using those damned labels and begin targeting the exacts? I'm pissed and tired of being held in contempt by these bloody pieces of mudslinging ideals without even being targeted in exact! If you call me defending the notion of this 'lynch' on me defensive--or WHATEVER on me being defensive, then I may as well just shorten and vote myself because I give up trying to talk to people. Why can't you even put any sort of statement from that idea? "Being defensive" is nothing short of an outright accusation which targets nothing but the generality of that person.
@Purple:...I'm beginning to hate you now.

Not only are you most likely town, but you begin denouncing me without even looking at the context! I "claimed" Toaster targeted me (in reality, I know he didn't, I asked that because I was going to judge by his answer. His state of going the 'Why did you kill x + vote' is an old trick he keeps using when he has predominantly near nothing on someone else and wants a reaction, or something. I asked him that because of his vote at day start, if you're "looking for answers that aren't related to hunting at all," to use your own words.

@Bolded part: You try pulling an explanation out of that

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    Assassin bot: Once per game the MS can use the assassin bot to perform a Morning Kill on another player. This attack cannot be traced back to the Mad Scientist.

And then tell me what a Morning kill is, buddy. If you weren't directly tied to Jim via alignment which could be town/least likely scum, then...bah. I need not deal with trivial stress.

Quote

asking many questions that aren't related to hunting at all

SPECIFY, you coward. Just because you're related to Jim doesn't mean you can be lazy lazy all around. Are you labeling me just to anger me? To incite whatever logical vengeance lies in my part? It's working, because ever since the last day, you haven't been thinking as a Towny (ie In depth logic or at least deciding to poke at current events). I just see you on occasion popping in and giving a brief summary without your own scumhunting tied in it.

And that 'quip' on my 'villainous breakdown'? It's very tempting to utter an expletive at you now at your free will on goading me.

Quote

ToonyMan/Sinless: cop, outed imp and caused her lynch. if he was scum, he would've let imp replace, unless someone can tell me that toony's meta is being completely mental.

Beautiful logic. You never poke at the essence of people's works, do you. Conclude before checking all those paths.

Quote

Jim - confirmed town for now
Caz - confirmed town

Humor me and tell me how you're both confirmed town.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 3 brings death and release
Post by: Caz on December 21, 2013, 11:56:46 am

Tiruin
Ah, you're right. I think the observant guard thing came from you claiming that you saw "no one or nothing" target Imp, which is strange as Heroic guards only stop kills and receive no other information, as far as I know. Why did you claim this, btw? If you thought it through, you'd know that it wouldn't clear Imp, yet you did it anyway?

Quote from: Tiruin on December 21, 2013, 11:12:59 am

Would you stop using those damned labels and begin targeting the exacts? I'm pissed and tired of being held in contempt by these bloody pieces of mudslinging ideals without even being targeted in exact! If you call me defending the notion of this 'lynch' on me defensive--or WHATEVER on me being defensive, then I may as well just shorten and vote myself because I give up trying to talk to people. Why can't you even put any sort of statement from that idea? "Being defensive" is nothing short of an outright accusation which targets nothing but the generality of that person.

Well, the fact that you're posting in the style you are. If you're town, then you're in a relatively good position - two dopps dead, many town power roles still active. Yet you're screaming bloody murder and insults as if this lynch will make you lose. Because you are scum.

Quote

Quote

    Assassin bot: Once per game the MS can use the assassin bot to perform a Morning Kill on another player. This attack cannot be traced back to the Mad Scientist.

And then tell me what a Morning kill is, buddy. If you weren't directly tied to Jim via alignment which could be town/least likely scum, then...bah. I need not deal with trivial stress.

Eh, as far as I know, Morning Kills happen before day start. I could be wrong. Meph, can you confirm on this?

Quote

ever since the last day, you haven't been thinking as a Towny (ie In depth logic or at least deciding to poke at current events). I just see you on occasion popping in and giving a brief summary without your own scumhunting tied in it.

*shrug* You talk enough for the both of us.

Quote from: Tiruin on December 21, 2013, 11:12:59 am

Quote

ToonyMan/Sinless: cop, outed imp and caused her lynch. if he was scum, he would've let imp replace, unless someone can tell me that toony's meta is being completely mental.

Beautiful logic. You never poke at the essence of people's works, do you. Conclude before checking all those paths.

So, is Toony your scum pick? You just got on me for being vague, but what is that? :P

Quote from: Tiruin on December 21, 2013, 11:12:59 am

Quote

Jim - confirmed town for now
Caz - confirmed town

Humor me and tell me how you're both confirmed town.

This was discussed several pages ago. If I were dopp, Jim would've mind stolen last night then bussed me. But you know that already. You seemed ok with this earlier. Why the change of heart? It just seems to me like you're trying to make a smoke-screen to hide how much of your posts are spent defending your non-town actions. We have the time I suppose. It's just... tiresome.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 3 brings death and release
Post by: Tiruin on December 21, 2013, 12:31:09 pm

Quote from: Caz on December 21, 2013, 11:56:46 am

Tiruin
Ah, you're right. I think the observant guard thing came from you claiming that you saw "no one or nothing" target Imp, which is strange as Heroic guards only stop kills and receive no other information, as far as I know. Why did you claim this, btw? If you thought it through, you'd know that it wouldn't clear Imp, yet you did it anyway?

Because I stand by what I said yesterday, though it is ill-thought of and underplanned. I note that people usually don't target me--and by people I mean kills--If I issued forth some vague claim like a heroic guard, the presiding thought would be that I'm actually someone else (haha no I'm a heroic guard u_u) given the notion of 'having something on x person' judging by the context of the details.

Said plan being blown to Charon and beyond when Imp flipped scum. Call me whatever, the crux back there was that I was more than null-sure that Imp was town.

Quote from: Caz on December 21, 2013, 11:56:46 am

Well, the fact that you're posting in the style you are. If you're town, then you're in a relatively good position - two dopps dead, many town power roles still active. Yet you're screaming bloody murder and insults as if this lynch will make you lose. Because you are scum.

I-..I..
*sighs*
I'm not being defensive. I'm being stressed. What I'm screaming from is a different angle than just blind and anxious rage--I'm screaming at the methods used in persecuting people..which is crude and faulty now that I look back at it.
Also no, I'm not scum, but if that notion keeps on sticking, I'll just throw down my arms and jump out the airlock, ie fight to the death.

Quote

So, is Toony your scum pick? You just got on me for being vague, but what is that? :P

I facepalm at your interpretation, with the only saving grace of this joke being your organ of taste hanging serenely from that cirrhotic face of yours.
No, Toony isn't my scum pick at all given how the proceeds went ~D2 twilight. It was a gamble at best, if he's scum, given how the stance of the public was--they weren't sure despite the notion of 'roleblock = no kill' was presented.

Quote

This was discussed several pages ago. If I were dopp, Jim would've mind stolen last night then bussed me. But you know that already. You seemed ok with this earlier. Why the change of heart? It just seems to me like you're trying to make a smoke-screen to hide how much of your posts are spent defending your non-town actions. We have the time I suppose. It's just... tiresome.

I refuse to punch the wall beside me because I've already decorated it enough with my pain.
Let me emphasize. "Humor me" = I want to hear what you've to say despite the pervasive notion being totally obvious and I just really want to hear what you have to say in all honesty.

This feels like the Spanish Inquisition breathing down my neck. Am I to be tortured by an opague wall of logic? My suspects lie as I stated before: SBC, makeinu, and the rest back there. Lacking a response to continue communication, I'm forced to banter with you right now.

Yet now I'm labeled. Non-town actions are a nice intangible notion brought onto me. What are they in detail, my mindless friend?

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 3 brings death and release
Post by: Superblackcat on December 21, 2013, 01:12:35 pm

Alrighty...
Here's my pitch...
I'm not the exterminator, I don't think my wincon exactly goes against yours... but it doesn't exactly help it either...

For me to win, several of you townies will have to die. And then I win. Past that, you guys can win.

I don't want to RC because I think I'll be escorted out of here and left floating aimlessly around the stars by you guys... However I think that not RCing is not any bit better.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 3 brings death and release
Post by: Tiruin on December 21, 2013, 01:32:22 pm

*checks OP*
*"Wincon where people need to die to win..that's like everything fulfilling the 'x needs to be more than y to win'. Could be dopp, could be alien. Must be alien by those two shields."*

Answer me superblackcat: Why did you tell me of your two shields. That's [mostly-ish] practically your saving grace towards me--'why would he do x when x confers a disadvantageous y'.

*goes back to check and narrows down to aliens*

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

• Survivor
      Visible Role: No Role
      Race: Alien
      Goal: Survive
      Rules: The Alien is there for some other purpose, and is simply hiding as a human. Their only goal is to survive until the end of the game. They win as long as they are alive, regardless of which side wins.
      Tech: 1 Small Tech Slot
      Victory: Is alive and unabducted at the end of the game
  
• Agent Operative
      Visible Role: Operative
      Race: Alien
      Goal: Based on Action
      Rules: This Operative is working with the government and has been sent along to assist an Agent in aiding the town. The Operative is not told who the Agent is until the First Night, however. In addition, the government has no way of knowing if the Agent is still human. The Operative should use caution when contacting the agent.
      Tech: 1 Medium and 2 Small Slots
      Victory: Town wins
  
• Spore Spreader
      Race: Alien
      Goal: Kill
      Rules: This alien organism has been engineered to spread by spores and take over hosts. For one reason or another, this Bioweapon has been set loose. There are two types of Spore Spreaders.
          Infester: The Infester must manually go to targets as a Night Action, infesting the target with Spores. The goal of the Infester is to have ALL surviving players at the end of the game infected with spores. The Infester need not be alive to win, and in fact when Lynched (but not killed otherwise), the Infester releases a spore cloud that randomly infects one of the non-infected players. The spores of this Alien are biological/nanomachine hybrids, and are therefore blocked by a Tech Shield. Guards may protect the target, and will be effected as normal for the guard type by the infection.
          Bloom: This Spore Spreader has a special ability that allows it to Seed the area with Alien plants at night once during the game. All players will be made aware of the plants the following morning. That day, the players MUST perform a lynch. If the SS is lynched that day, it will send forth a cloud of chemicals that will activate the plants. The plants then release spores that convert all other players into Spore Spreaders, and winning the game for the SS. If the SS is not lynched, then it will die the following night and lose.
      Tech: 0 Slots
      Victory: All players at game end Infected/The Spore Spreader must be lynched the day following the Seeding.
  
• Hivemind
      Race: Alien
      Goal: Kill/Protect
      Rules: The Hivemind is an Alien on the run. Using either Technology or advanced Psychic Powers (Player's choice at start) the Hivemind dominates the humans in the town in order to ensure its survival. Once per night the Hivemind Alien chooses a player to convert. If the player is human, and does not have the appropriate blocking ability, they join the Hivemind's faction. Converted players keep their current role, but switch teams and win condition. If the Hivemind dies, all converted players die with them.
        Psychic Hivemind: Mentally dominates a human using Psychic powers. Blocked by Mind Shield. Advanced Mind Shield shows as 'Non Human' regardless of race. Can by role-blocked by Psychic Wardens. As a Psychic Being, the Hivemind cannot take a Mind Shield as tech.
        Tech Hivemind: Uses advanced technology to dominate a human. Blocked by Anti-Tech Field. Advanced Anti-Tech Field shows as 'Non Human' regardless of race. Cannot be role-blocked, but the target can be Guarded. A sacrificial Guard will be converted instead of the intended target. A Guardian will be able to protect the target and not get converted themselves.
      Tech: 1 Medium Slot
      Victory: The Hivemind wins when all opposing groups are dead and the town has no way of stopping them (Vig, War Vet, etc)
  

    All aliens get to pick from the following set of equipment to start the game with, based on the number of Tech slots listed under their role. An alien can only have 1 of any given item unless otherwise noted.

Now I really doubt its an Exterminator given the lack of kills so I've stricken that and the Exty-Op out.
You can't be the Xeno-Zoo given the lack of abductions either and one of them is claimed--Jim. So that's out too. Include all roles which have flavor hints like the Organ Harvester and the replica Mind Stealer..

...

Interesting.

*checks back in personal notes*
So you say you can technically win with town? Emphasis on technically? And then

Quote from: Superblackcat on December 21, 2013, 01:12:35 pm

For me to win, several of you townies will have to die. And then I win. Past that, you guys can win.

Emphasis.

...
Eh? So..you're not a survivor...unless there's some zany concept of a refugee who has a phobia of "# of living people'

If you had forgotten your wincon, then that would be a present notion, but..you haven't said that--you haven't also addressed my queries to you however; my query on your shields is still unanswered so I don't know what to think about that tic.

It doesn't make sense to see if you're a Spore Spreader--you sure haven't acted like one (though Max..ugh. Max.). That note disclaims an Infester though you could be lying...I don't see lying there judging by the thorough use of ellipsis--and believe you me, I know those notes on ellipses.

Hello Hivemind. THIS is where this process of elimination works (take that plebians). I'm taking all your words as honesty, however the confusion draws with why you told me in the first place (no I'm not a convert). Who did you target--why did you pick those who you'd target?

Quote

    Victory: The Hivemind wins when all opposing groups are dead and the town has no way of stopping them (Vig, War Vet, etc)

The Town wincon generally goes along the notion of "general gist is that opposing conditions [ie wincons] should not be present or dead." from memory...Which is practically those who want Town dead. Looking at the list of Aliens, that only pertains to the Harvester and the Exty//Exty-Op, the rest are...'nuisances to the free subjects of Middle Earth' as described by the Toaster Encyclopedia of 2044. Meaning: Neutrally aligned; judging from what you said however, this 'technicality' could span to all those who aren't an Exterminator (or you're lying, but I sincerely doubt that).

Quote from: Superblackcat on December 21, 2013, 01:12:35 pm

I don't want to RC because I think I'll be escorted out of here and left floating aimlessly around the stars by you guys... However I think that not RCing is not any bit better.

Why..did..you...tell me about those two shields. It's bugging the neurons out of their destined locations in my body. Jan Purkyně would be displeased.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 3 brings death and release
Post by: Tiruin on December 21, 2013, 01:39:09 pm

EBWOP: Really, if you're a Survivor, then there's completely nothing at all to worry about given the notion of double shields--I don't know how exactly it works, but from reading the past Paranormals, people get natural shields sometimes, and given what you said, there's an obvious discrepancy in the works. Don't antagonize your case.

How are you 'lucky' with those shields? Wording difficulty? I doubt that one but perhaps I didn't fully understand you back then. Why exactly 'townies' by the way? Isn't the dopp a threat to you that you're...specifying?

..Or you're an INfester and playing a devilishly scheming plan due to how..."transparent" (or as transparent as can be due to that massclaim) the plot is set right now.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 3 brings death and release
Post by: Superblackcat on December 21, 2013, 01:45:05 pm

Tiruin: I was feeling nice... I really shouldn't play mafia when I am feeling nice.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 3 brings death and release
Post by: Caz on December 21, 2013, 01:50:30 pm

Quote from: Tiruin on December 21, 2013, 12:31:09 pm

I facepalm at your interpretation, with the only saving grace of this joke being your organ of taste hanging serenely from that cirrhotic face of yours.

Wow. :P

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 3 brings death and release
Post by: Caz on December 21, 2013, 01:53:11 pm

SBC: So you're hivemind, right? Who else is converted? Maybe we can work something out.

2 shields: tech can be gifted iirc, so someone who had a shield gave theirs to SBC to ensure they wouldn't all die.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 3 brings death and release
Post by: Mephansteras on December 21, 2013, 01:56:50 pm

The Whiteboard
makeinu: Persus13, Tiruin
Superblackcat: Jim Groovester, makeinu, ToonyMan, Toaster
Tiruin: Caz

---

Day ends ~5pm Pacific Monday

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 3 brings death and release
Post by: Persus13 on December 21, 2013, 01:58:33 pm

Tiruin:

Quote from: Persus13 on December 20, 2013, 04:38:25 pm

I told him my role after he told me he was an observant guard.

I mistyped this because I was in a hurry. Makeinu did NOT lie to me about his role. This sentence should read "I told him I was an observant guard after he told me his N1 inspect results."

I can even quote from the PMs:

Quote from: makeinu on December 11, 2013, 11:48:02 pm

I know why you have a bad feeling about Jim: he's the Alien. A Mind Stealer. I thought about revealing to him, but I'm not sure about Caz being Town, and if he's Doppelganger, then Jim has that wincon.

Quote from: makeinu on December 14, 2013, 01:04:10 am

Quote from: Persus13 on December 13, 2013, 11:33:26 pm

What kind of inspector are you?

Detective. Given the "public role" aspect of the dopps, I expect not actually all that useful.

Caz:

Quote from: Caz on December 21, 2013, 11:56:46 am

Quote from: Tiruin on December 21, 2013, 11:12:59 am

Quote

Jim - confirmed town for now
Caz - confirmed town

Humor me and tell me how you're both confirmed town.

This was discussed several pages ago. If I were dopp, Jim would've mind stolen last night then bussed me. But you know that already. You seemed ok with this earlier. Why the change of heart? It just seems to me like you're trying to make a smoke-screen to hide how much of your posts are spent defending your non-town actions. We have the time I suppose. It's just... tiresome.

I have to agree with Tiruin on this one. You two are not confirmed town. Jim would have abducted someone else last night if he really wanted to win, but Jim has done well at being the only scum player in previous mafia games. And if both of you are dopp aligned, all you need to do is wait until day end tomorrow. Nevertheless, the two of you are pretty low on my suspicion list, but are a little higher now because of this.

Can people please explain to me why they think Tiruin is scum? I honestly am failing to see it.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 3 brings death and release
Post by: Superblackcat on December 21, 2013, 02:00:24 pm

Heh, Caz, Actually Max lobbied Meph into 2 small in stead of one medium...
I had a natural mind shield... and then got an antitech....

BTW, Caz, Max tried to convert you day one... I tried to convert Ranger Day 2...


I must say, How am I so freaking unlucky?

(Actually I'm both lucky and unlucky... You 2 were both people I needed to convert, and I/Max guessed right both times... However, someone always got to you guys first >: ()

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 3 brings death and release
Post by: Tiruin on December 21, 2013, 02:02:43 pm

Uh, no, that makes no sense either. Back there when I'm talking to makeinu and Caz, that's me being nice.

But really, what do you mean? The only possibilities with me on you--and that's with nothing but an 'all clear' sign from my intuition on anything you say, which scares me--are either Survivor/HiveMind/SporeSpreader/Agent Operative. The 'need x number of people' = Hivemind more than anything else, but the dual-shield speaks about self-preservation (which..I should look at Max instead given on his choices of a Medium Tech slot if the Hivemind is to be settled with) AND you did mention something affecting makeinu.

Quote

Medium Tech

    Advanced Holoform Modulator: Works as the Holoform Modulator, but also allows the Alien to project an active hologram. This hologram can be shown to go to any location (or stay at home). Anyone following the Alien will watch the Hologram instead of the Alien. In addition, the Advanced Holoform Modulator will screen against Psychic and Tech detection as well. It will not, however, protect the alien from a War Vet or Sentry Guns at the location they actually visit. Once activated it lasts the entire night but is used up after that.
    Permanent Holoform Modulator: Works as the Holoform Modulator, but is not used up when inspected.
    Assassin bot: Once per game the Alien can use the assassin bot to Morning-kill another player. This attack cannot be traced back to the Alien. In addition, it is triggered remotely and can be used even while abducted.
    Mind Control Ray: Once per game the Alien can use the Mind Control Ray to choose another player's target for the night as well as their vote for the next day. If the player does not have a night action (and is not the dopp/cultist chosen for the night kill), or if the player has a limited-use night ability and chose not to use it, then no action occurs. The alien still controls the vote on the next day.
    Stun Bomb: Allows the Alien to stun the entire town, preventing any player from using an Action for that night or using any active abilities the following day. The Alien who uses it is unaffected. Does not use up the Alien's action for that night.
    Combat Camouflage: A combination of weapons and accessories that allows the Exterminator to mask his kills as if they came from any source (Vig, Dopp, or Abduction). Also works on kills made by Assassin Bots.
    EMP Pulse Emitter: Can be used to Target a single player each night. Any Tech devices used by that player that night are shorted out and must be fixed the following night. If the player's action relied on the Tech item, they are roleblocked. Does not use up the Alien's action for that night.
    Psychic Pulse Emitter: Can be used to Target a single player each night. Prevents the player from using any Psychic Abilities (except for a Mind Shield) for that night and the next day phase. Does not use up the Alien's action for that night.

...None of these make sense to me. Unless you got the Holoform Modulator [not the Permanent one]...which does make sense.

I don't know what to think other than you playing as a Hivemind and coming off clean as in 'I'm not lying' but..Spore Spreader dangers are also existent here given the contradicting uncontested claims there.


...So I'm going with Occam's Razor here. Technically--those who should be dead for you to achieve such are: ToonyMan - Psychic Warden ; That Dopp..and that's basically it.

Quote

Victory: The Hivemind wins when all opposing groups are dead and the town has no way of stopping them (Vig, War Vet, etc)

Actually I'm not even sure if a Psychic Warden == "Stops the HIvemind" A.K.A. KILL THE HIVEMIND UNLESS HE'S OBVIOUS :O

Because from this list:

Quote

    RangerCado - Human Intelligence Scientist

    Superblackcat - Um. Alien.

    *Jim Groovester - Useless Military Scientist [Ass. Bot] {Alien}
    *Caz - Mindless Human
    Toaster - Claimed Agent
    Persus13 - Claimed Observant
    Tiruin - Claimed Heroic Guard (I'm actually a Guardian. :P)
    ToonyMan - Claimed Psychic Warden
    makeinu - Claimed Detective


    TheDarkStar - Doppelganger (Anti-Tech Field)
    Imp - Tough Doppelganger

* = Analogous//One is Human/Dopp, and the other is a copy.
The Agent Operative makes more sense however, given that there is an existing Agent. What's going on SBC.

PPE ooo 5 new replies. Time to get to those in my next post.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 3 brings death and release
Post by: Superblackcat on December 21, 2013, 02:10:25 pm

I assumed the Scientists could kill me, and so can Jim...

I'm not sure if I have to convert Toony.

Yes Dopp has to die for me.

I got a shield, and a holograph, It was used on N2, I thought it was permanent... (GG NOT READING OP) Heh... Worked out in my favor though.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 3 brings death and release
Post by: Caz on December 21, 2013, 02:13:42 pm

Quote from: Persus13 on December 21, 2013, 01:58:33 pm

I have to agree with Tiruin on this one. You two are not confirmed town. Jim would have abducted someone else last night if he really wanted to win, but Jim has done well at being the only scum player in previous mafia games. And if both of you are dopp aligned, all you need to do is wait until day end tomorrow. Nevertheless, the two of you are pretty low on my suspicion list, but are a little higher now because of this.

I suppose you've got to be cautious. Feel free to do whatever you need to sate your suspicions.

Quote from: Persus13 on December 21, 2013, 01:58:33 pm

Can people please explain to me why they think Tiruin is scum? I honestly am failing to see it.

buddying/protecting imp, missing both scumlynches, taking the threat of lynch quite badly. The arguments held up, though, and I haven't seen further missteps. It's a townie point for her, I guess. A small one. ^{Very small.}

Quote from: Superblackcat on December 21, 2013, 02:00:24 pm

Heh, Caz, Actually Max lobbied Meph into 2 small in stead of one medium...
I had a natural mind shield... and then got an antitech....

If Max convinced Meph, why did the tech appear on consecutive days?

Though if you are telling the truth, it's interesting. Getting rid of the cult is a priority... but I also want to find the last dopp rather than killing you today. :/ Problems, problems...

Quote from: Tiruin on December 21, 2013, 02:02:43 pm

Uh, no, that makes no sense either. Back there when I'm talking to makeinu and Caz, that's me being nice.

<3

Quote

I don't know what to think other than you playing as a Hivemind and coming off clean as in 'I'm not lying' but..Spore Spreader dangers are also existent here given the contradicting uncontested claims there.

Spore Spreader has no tech though, so I doubt he is one.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 3 brings death and release
Post by: Superblackcat on December 21, 2013, 02:15:13 pm

Consecutive days? What?

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 3 brings death and release
Post by: Caz on December 21, 2013, 02:17:23 pm

Quote from: Superblackcat on December 21, 2013, 02:15:13 pm

Consecutive days? What?

You said you had one then had the other. As if you started with only one. You even referred to it as "lucky". Or I'm misunderstanding this.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 3 brings death and release
Post by: Persus13 on December 21, 2013, 02:19:45 pm

Quote from: Caz on December 21, 2013, 02:13:42 pm

Quote from: Persus13 on December 21, 2013, 01:58:33 pm

Can people please explain to me why they think Tiruin is scum? I honestly am failing to see it.

buddying/protecting imp, missing both scumlynches, taking the threat of lynch quite badly. The arguments held up, though, and I haven't seen further missteps. It's a townie point for her, I guess. A small one. ^{Very small.}

Okay, I can understand several of these points. I mean, I missed both scum lynches too, and TIruin and Imp seem to be friends, so I could understand buddying. I didn't notice anything off about Imp until D2 as well.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 3 brings death and release
Post by: Tiruin on December 21, 2013, 02:21:22 pm

The post I'm replying to in the above is

Quote from: Superblackcat on December 21, 2013, 01:45:05 pm

Tiruin: I was feeling nice... I really shouldn't play mafia when I am feeling nice.

I didn't bother reading the rest until this post.

---

---

Persus

Quote from: Persus13 on December 21, 2013, 01:58:33 pm

Tiruin:

Quote from: Persus13 on December 20, 2013, 04:38:25 pm

I told him my role after he told me he was an observant guard.

I mistyped this because I was in a hurry. Makeinu did NOT lie to me about his role. This sentence should read "I told him I was an observant guard after he told me his N1 inspect results."[...]

*sighs*
I like how you made my name big. It makes me feel appreciated. Thanks. >_<
..So yeah, that's cleared up anyway.

TOONYMAN: ROLEBLOCK SBC. LYNCH SOMEONE ELSE TODAY EVERYONE.

Quote from: Persus13 on December 21, 2013, 01:58:33 pm

Can people please explain to me why they think Tiruin is scum? I honestly am failing to see it.

I know that I should shut up and not say anything :I But I want to express myself as a person and not as a player here when I say 'thank you Persus' and 'If you'd see me now, I'd be partly teary at your empathy'.
But I didn't say that as a player.

---

Quote from: Superblackcat on December 21, 2013, 02:00:24 pm

Heh, Caz, Actually Max lobbied Meph into 2 small in stead of one medium...
I had a natural mind shield... and then got an antitech....

BTW, Caz, Max tried to convert you day one... I tried to convert Ranger Day 2...


I must say, How am I so freaking unlucky?

(Actually I'm both lucky and unlucky... You 2 were both people I needed to convert, and I/Max guessed right both times... However, someone always got to you guys first >: ()

...
...
*parsing*
Here's me taking ten minutes to internalize all your posts while hugging ZU's lurkertracker and I say, either my internal lie detector is broken or I'm seeing sincerity off the charts. Kudos to your courage dear sir! (Bravery is a lie. Courage is the true form of bravery!)
Anyway. Let's say I believe everything you say because that causes less of a headache.
This means that:
> You've taken a counter-measure as a generality given the Advanced Holoform--this describes makeinu's block.
> You haven't converted anyone. Because if you had, then we'd be damn s****** and if people are converted, this explains why the votes are so flippant today with excuses and labels flying everywhichway.

..That is what I'm wavering on.

> In truth, nobody can 'actually' stop you short of the lynch given how all the claims have no guns or stuff to kill your face off. Other than ToonyMan (<3 ToonyMan).

---

...So it boils down to 'Do we trust if you converted people'.

When it really boils down to "EVERYONE PROTECT TOONY; TOONY, PUT SUPERBLACKCAT IN CHAINS. LYNCH SOMEONE ELSE OTHER THAN SBC."

Collating reads and transcribing personal notes in the morning. 3AM typing is fun~

PPE: Did you also assume that the Agent Operative doesn't win with town?
...I have nothing to say about the parenthesis other than 'This is your fault' and 'DIE ALIEN SCUM' and other aforementioned things a seriously self-righteous person would do in a comedy play.

*checks OP*
Oh look, Mind Control is at the top of the list!
..Ah. Now I get what that 'can't stop you' thing is, other than 'LYNCH THE DARN THING'.

..Redact that note to Toony.

PPE: Argh new posts.

Quote

buddying/protecting imp, missing both scumlynches, taking the threat of lynch quite badly. The arguments held up, though, and I haven't seen further missteps. It's a townie point for her, I guess. A small one. Very small.

EXPLAIN.

Do you even care to talk to me like a real person, or am I too low for you to expound in detail? Taking the threat of the lynch 'quite badly' is taken fully out of context. You aren't even targeting what I explicitly said in favor of said lynch!

PPE: Thrice damnit. You both don't bother at all. Whatever, I give up. I shall speak nothing more on defending myself against your brief cases.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 3 brings death and release
Post by: Caz on December 21, 2013, 02:26:42 pm

Quote from: Tiruin on December 21, 2013, 02:21:22 pm

EXPLAIN.

Do you even care to talk to me like a real person, or am I too low for you to expound in detail? Taking the threat of the lynch 'quite badly' is taken fully out of context. You aren't even targeting what I explicitly said in favor of said lynch!

PPE: Thrice damnit. You both don't bother at all. Whatever, I give up. I shall speak nothing more on defending myself against your brief cases.

If you stop with the dramatic pontification, I will try.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 3 brings death and release
Post by: Tiruin on December 21, 2013, 02:30:42 pm

..Yeah..I should probably not do that. I sound like a broken tape recorder. >_<

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 3 brings death and release
Post by: ToonyMan on December 21, 2013, 02:37:46 pm

If SBC is a hivemind (who has failed to convert anybody even) what's the problem with lynching them and then following Makeinu's plan to clear and check most people?  That's what I'm going to do.  If you wanted somebody else lynched and for me to block SBC tonight that person being lynched today would be you, Tiruin.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 3 brings death and release
Post by: Superblackcat on December 21, 2013, 02:41:53 pm

Nonononono.

Caz, I start out with Natural Mind Shield, and Max picked out anti-tech shield.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 3 brings death and release
Post by: Caz on December 21, 2013, 02:44:30 pm

Quote from: ToonyMan on December 21, 2013, 02:37:46 pm

If SBC is a hivemind (who has failed to convert anybody even) what's the problem with lynching them and then following Makeinu's plan to clear and check most people?  That's what I'm going to do.  If you wanted somebody else lynched and for me to block SBC tonight that person being lynched today would be you, Tiruin.

It doesn't really matter which way we do it. If you guys want to get rid of SBC I'm ok with a shorten.

SBC: sorry dude, looks like you had bad luck all game :(

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 3 brings death and release
Post by: Tiruin on December 21, 2013, 02:45:18 pm

Quote from: ToonyMan on December 21, 2013, 02:37:46 pm

If SBC is a hivemind (who has failed to convert anybody even) what's the problem with lynching them and then following Makeinu's plan to clear and check most people?  That's what I'm going to do.  If you wanted somebody else lynched and for me to block SBC tonight that person being lynched today would be you, Tiruin.

Yeah, and yet again I offer the idea of rechecking back other than lying on your lazy bums to say 'LYNCH HER LYNCH HIM'.

..And you really can't block SBC.

Quote from: Caz on December 21, 2013, 02:44:30 pm

Quote from: ToonyMan on December 21, 2013, 02:37:46 pm

If SBC is a hivemind (who has failed to convert anybody even) what's the problem with lynching them and then following Makeinu's plan to clear and check most people?  That's what I'm going to do.  If you wanted somebody else lynched and for me to block SBC tonight that person being lynched today would be you, Tiruin.

It doesn't really matter which way we do it. If you guys want to get rid of SBC I'm ok with a shorten.

SBC: sorry dude, looks like you had bad luck all game :(

It's all Max' fault.
^{And I still hate you! Idiot! :I
Sorry}

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 3 brings death and release
Post by: ToonyMan on December 21, 2013, 03:12:52 pm

Right then we definitely want to lynch SBC first and then you tomorrow.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 3 brings death and release
Post by: Superblackcat on December 21, 2013, 03:16:17 pm

Wow, So no more compromise? ;-;

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 3 brings death and release
Post by: Tiruin on December 21, 2013, 03:17:34 pm

Quote from: ToonyMan on December 21, 2013, 03:12:52 pm

Right then we definitely want to lynch SBC first and then you tomorrow.

Hah, fine. Back it up Toony. I want to see this tough guy put his own chips into the lynch-pot.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 3 brings death and release
Post by: Superblackcat on December 21, 2013, 03:43:33 pm

Also, I'm quite confused... Why is suddenly... everyone clear?

Like actually?

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 3 brings death and release
Post by: Tiruin on December 21, 2013, 03:48:36 pm

My point exactly. People are using blatant, shallow labels and spouting words to the detail level of 'NO U SCUM GO DIE'.

Like I said before, I shall repeat again: I'm disgusted at that. There hasn't been much scumhunting around--just laziness, and it could be said from the first votes of today henceforth.

Those threats of Tiruin go die? Cheap and worthless. Back it up guys. You've got nothing but your words and you can't even fight with them properly.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 3 brings death and release
Post by: Caz on December 21, 2013, 03:58:00 pm

Quote from: Superblackcat on December 21, 2013, 03:16:17 pm

Wow, So no more compromise? ;-;

It'd be possible if you had a few people on your team, but since you claim to being alone... :l

Quote from: Tiruin on December 21, 2013, 02:45:18 pm

Quote

It's all Max' fault.
^{And I still hate you! Idiot! :I
Sorry}

It'd be nice to lynch you just to get you to shut up at this point. :D

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 3 brings death and release
Post by: Caz on December 21, 2013, 03:59:43 pm

Quote from: ToonyMan on December 21, 2013, 03:12:52 pm

Right then we definitely want to lynch SBC first and then you tomorrow.

I agree SBC needs to go, but I don't think we've reached a consensus on whether it's Tiruin or someone else to go tomorrow. Maybe I'm wrong.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 3 brings death and release
Post by: Persus13 on December 21, 2013, 04:05:16 pm

Quote from: Caz on December 21, 2013, 03:59:43 pm

Quote from: ToonyMan on December 21, 2013, 03:12:52 pm

Right then we definitely want to lynch SBC first and then you tomorrow.

I agree SBC needs to go, but I don't think we've reached a consensus on whether it's Tiruin or someone else to go tomorrow. Maybe I'm wrong.

We should probably wait until tomorrow to decide what to do tomorrow.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 3 brings death and release
Post by: Tiruin on December 21, 2013, 04:07:16 pm

Quote from: Caz on December 21, 2013, 03:58:00 pm

It'd be nice to lynch you just to get you to shut up at this point. :D

Ah.
Shorten.
Tiruin

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 3 brings death and release
Post by: Persus13 on December 21, 2013, 04:21:36 pm

Tiruin, seriously?

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 3 brings death and release
Post by: Tiruin on December 21, 2013, 04:29:11 pm

Last note before I stop caring at all.

Quote from: Superblackcat on December 21, 2013, 03:16:17 pm

Wow, So no more compromise? ;-;

SBC, I believe there can not be any room for compromise at this point. Even if you're telling the truth--which I believe despite the pervading notion--there is still the crooked note there.

You don't know who the dopp is, or know who exactly he is. Your convert dies with you. These two statements are synonymous with each other in the way that the lynch of you, at this moment in time, serves as the best method at the moment in the general case.

I thank you for trusting me, I really do, yet in the chat we had before, I left some space for you to answer; space which I usually leave to give the benefit of the doubt in forming. What I've been playing as, in this whole game, I take a leaf from my play back in the last regular BM--I do not want what happened and what I did to Imp, to happen this time (and literally, I know how it feels now as I glare at some people playing here "Ooo, appeal to emotion!").

If you didn't convert anyone, or if you did anyways, I advice you to state who your targets are. Your scum list. WHo you believe is scum, why, and which parts (or their general timeframe) makes them so. I'm racking myself on why you've told me about those two shields..and the concept of you being 'nice' is a very nebulous one, where regret spouts its ugly head, but at this moment in time, I've to say that I deeply admire your courage there.

That at least you, of all the others here, aren't resorting to an uncaring attitude.

Note for tonight: We've 3 main targets: ToonyMan, makeinu and Toaster. Two are investigators, one is a role-blocker. If I live, I'll be blocking either makeinu or Toony --I don't trust Toaster of the recent moment (same goes with Toony but I don't care anymore and pick the lesser evil) and trust Persus to target the other; however contrary to recent events, I believe the patterns and associations of Toony or makeinu, though despite my personal feelings towards then, point them as Town-r than the rest.

Jim/Caz, I would love to know if any of you can still act. Jim: If I missed the note on 'Mindstealers can steal minds on continuous days', then please link me because I'm asking you again, right now, if you can do so.

Quote from: Persus13 on December 21, 2013, 04:21:36 pm

Tiruin, seriously?

Oh yes seriously. I don't care anymore. Nobody bothers to look back and check? I feel like I'm doing all the work here..at least now I feel how Imp felt during that BM. S'pose I deserve it for how I acted then, and now I know how it feels receiving it, huh.
Yeah damn seriously. Vote me out. I'm tired of talking to brick walls with no brains. My blatant insults just proves that the current atmosphere on most players are more ego-centric than open-minded at the time being.

Meaning I bloody well give up. Sure, allude this current behavior to me being scum. I suppose none of you will think about that either and just vote me down, eh?

And what do you mean by seriously? I hoped that my words would at least inspire people to look back at D2, but what I've seen today was a mass tunnel on those deemed to be the 'last suspects remaining'. Nobody has picked back--yea, even I admit to this error to sate your inquisitorial thoughts--and checked on the notes back then in depth, but relied on labels to state the ideas.

I'm stressed, and possibly having memory lapses despite trying my best to keep up here and what'll make me happy is seeing my name in red. At least then the motives of people would be showing truly instead of being hidden behind the thin guise of the collective-thought. The metaphor of the hivemind works perfectly as people feel safer in crowds--oh dear me, I'm being defensive because I'm the lone voice speaking against them! Dear me..dear me.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 3 brings death and release
Post by: Persus13 on December 21, 2013, 04:33:21 pm

Unvote

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 3 brings death and release
Post by: makeinu on December 21, 2013, 04:38:29 pm

Tiruin:

I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt here. It's hard not to act defensively when you're being cornered, and you are. Look at some of my own posts on Day One.

Quote from: Persus13 on December 21, 2013, 02:19:45 pm

I didn't notice anything off about Imp until D2 as well.

Honestly, neither did I. It was only after stuff started being claimed that I went back and looked at her posts, and began applying logic to what I thought had happened. On the surface, she appeared Town.

Quote from: Persus13 on December 21, 2013, 01:58:33 pm

Caz:

Quote from: Caz on December 21, 2013, 11:56:46 am

Quote from: Tiruin on December 21, 2013, 11:12:59 am

Quote

Jim - confirmed town for now
Caz - confirmed town

Humor me and tell me how you're both confirmed town.

This was discussed several pages ago. If I were dopp, Jim would've mind stolen last night then bussed me. But you know that already. You seemed ok with this earlier. Why the change of heart? It just seems to me like you're trying to make a smoke-screen to hide how much of your posts are spent defending your non-town actions. We have the time I suppose. It's just... tiresome.

Caz and Jim are cleared by logic alone. We can believe that Caz was a Mad Scientist, and that Jim used the Assassin Bot to kill RangerCado to satisfy his own conviction she was a threat to the Town. He was wrong, fine, that happens, and maybe he's not Town and knew he was wrong, WIFOM, because if he is a dopp, there'd be much better, more obvious targets for him to have hit. Ones with known value due to role-claims.

Regardless.

If a plan of action is formulated correctly, and followed, and he's a dopp because of Caz, then he'll end up with a new wincon come tonight.

And if the plan of action isn't followed, then we'll have a better target for the morning: whoever didn't fulfill their role in it.

Today we lynch Superblackcat. Which looks pretty inevitable at this point, since he hasn't given any reason not to, and he'll flip.

Tonight:

Persus guards makeinu.
makeinu rolecops Persus, to check him for Dopp Leader status. 'No role' result belies the guard claim.

That either clears Persus entirely, or if I end up dead, it's because something stopped Persus or he killed me. And since ToonyMan and Jim are the only ones that can stop Persus, suspect.

ToonyMan blocks Caz. Caz is vanilla now anyway, so if Town, she can't  do anything tonight anyway. And if dopp, she can't kill tonight.

Jim Mind Steals ToonyMan. If Caz was dopp, then ToonyMan isn't, and Jim's wincon will change, and he can tell us that.

Toaster checks for race on Caz, I guess. If dopp, that won't tell us much of anything.

That leaves Tiruin free do do as she pleases. There's your benefit of the doubt, Tiruin. Let your action tell us what you are.

And, at the end, if someone is night killed, Toaster and Tiruin are the only ones who weren't assigned anything that will directly provide provable actions.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 3 brings death and release
Post by: Tiruin on December 21, 2013, 04:54:07 pm

Quote from: makeinu on December 21, 2013, 04:38:29 pm

Tiruin:

I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt here. It's hard not to act defensively when you're being cornered, and you are.

I was prepared to cite a long list of defense against all that conventional attack..and this is what I'm facing?
..thanks...

Still..I have to ask. This 'being cornered' could also speak of me as scum and me being the last one (yeah, sans any relations which nobody looks at). What makes you think I'm not? This 'benefit of the doubt'?

---

---

Meph: An errant thought crossed my mind.

Quote

Harvester
    Race: Alien
    Goal: Kill/Find
    Rules: The Harvester is collecting things for its own purposes. There are two different types of Harvesters. A Harvester may choose to Abduct another player during the Night Phase.
      Organ Harvester - The Abducted player is killed. The Harvester acts as a Doom Speaker, and is building an Abomination. After some # of nights (based on player count) the Abomination is released and performs a Night Kill attempt on every player.
      Mind Stealer - Copies the Role from the Abducted player for the following day/night as well as the Win Condition of that player until a new one is acquired. The abducted player reverts to a vanilla role for the rest of the game(Aliens will all become survivors). If the Mind Stealer doesn't have any other goal, then it is a Survivor.     
    Tech: 0 Slots
    Victory: Organ Harvester wins when all other players are dead. The OH must be alive at the end of the game. The Mind Stealer wins if its current win condition is fulfilled.

Now in browsing back on all the Harvesters as of late, I haven't come across a Mind Stealer--given my experience as an Organ Harvester, 'releasing your victim' hasn't ever been an option to me (as it should be, as I want your yummy tissues).
> Does a Mind Stealer have a mandatory -take and return- action (as in, steal the person one night, return him the next)? Given the bolded portion, that means 'for the following day and night' post-night-when-he/she-was-abducted, right?
> When that day/night runs out, the Mind Stealer will revert to its original form and will be able to Mind Steal again, right?

---

Caz was captured N1, returned N2. So that means the Mind Stealer can only act on consecutive days if the MS power is not a one-shot.

---

Quote

Honestly, neither did I. It was only after stuff started being claimed that I went back and looked at her posts, and began applying logic to what I thought had happened. On the surface, she appeared Town.

THIS is what I'm talking about!
argh whatever I don't want to talk about this. I'm defending Imp guys! Lynch me for that!

---

Spoiler: The Plan (click to show/hide)

Persus guards makeinu.
makeinu rolecops Persus, to check him for Dopp Leader status. 'No role' result belies the guard claim.

That either clears Persus entirely, or if I end up dead, it's because something stopped Persus or he killed me. And since ToonyMan and Jim are the only ones that can stop Persus, suspect.

ToonyMan blocks Caz. Caz is vanilla now anyway, so if Town, she can't  do anything tonight anyway. And if dopp, she can't kill tonight.

Jim Mind Steals ToonyMan. If Caz was dopp, then ToonyMan isn't, and Jim's wincon will change, and he can tell us that.

Toaster checks for race on Caz, I guess. If dopp, that won't tell us much of anything.

That leaves Tiruin free do do as she pleases. There's your benefit of the doubt, Tiruin. Let your action tell us what you are.

And, at the end, if someone is night killed, Toaster and Tiruin are the only ones who weren't assigned anything that will directly provide provable actions.

Eh? I'm guarding the triumvirate here. I'd say that I suspect one of them is a fakeclaimer but I'm too exhausted to check back given that I wholly trust Persus (he was the only one other than Cado to willfully contact me in a PM.) Unless he's scum and really wants to prove his 'human' role.

Quote

If you really are a heroic guard. I reccommend you protect Makeinu. Dead man walking out.

And I just remembered (woo, memory, nice way to convict me >__>). The base reason why I claimed is because I took it from a scum perspective of view--they would see me claiming as a heroic guard and then wonder why one would even do such a thing--sure, while its a Protect role, it also means its a martyr role, so in essence they'd chance upon something else in their thoughts and plans--enabling me to launch this thing against anyone I deemed worthy. Stuff is hazy, that's my general idea and why I said WIFOM scum at the time.
It didn't work as I'm still alive (Not a Guardian).

Persus, you have mail incoming. BCC anyone, whatever, I trust you with my choice.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 3 brings death and release
Post by: ToonyMan on December 21, 2013, 05:07:06 pm

Has town ever lynched a dopp the first two days before?  How did that turn out?

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 3 brings death and release
Post by: makeinu on December 21, 2013, 05:19:18 pm

Quote from: ToonyMan on December 21, 2013, 05:07:06 pm

Has town ever lynched a dopp the first two days before?  How did that turn out?

I've never seen a game this initially successful for Town.

Two days.
Two scum lynches.
No scum night kills.

That doesn't mean victory is assured for the Town, by any means. We're potentially still 6-2 here, if Caz and Jim are dopps, and we've got that known unknown of Superblackcat, which means we've as little as a 3-player advantage. Smart play by a dopp team, or even a solo dopp, can't be ruled out.

But we can try.

Tiruin: I'm being kind. Please don't question it. Right now, I have only your past action claims, unverifiable, and your public postings to go on. The same goes for Toaster. My intuition, and that's all I really have at the moment, is you for dopp and Toaster for Town. But there's still the unverified nature of clearing Caz/Jim, and until that's resolved, I'm more than happy to give the remaining Dopp(s) enough rope to hang themselves, i.e., freedom to act at night, in a controlled fashion.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 3 brings death and release
Post by: Superblackcat on December 21, 2013, 05:24:42 pm

Ehh, Wait... I'm being lynched... Because we don't know who scum is?

Like... Isn't that the games objective? I'm lynched because... Objective is not fulfilled? That's a ... interesting reason there.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 3 brings death and release
Post by: Jim Groovester on December 21, 2013, 05:25:51 pm

No, you're being lynched because you're a Hivemind.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 3 brings death and release
Post by: Superblackcat on December 21, 2013, 05:27:26 pm

And that's worse than scum?

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 3 brings death and release
Post by: Jim Groovester on December 21, 2013, 05:28:10 pm

The town's win condition and the Hivemind's win condition are mutually exclusive.

There's no compromise possible here.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 3 brings death and release
Post by: ToonyMan on December 21, 2013, 09:40:20 pm

Watch SBC actually be an Exterminator with a Dead Man Bomb.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 3 brings death and release
Post by: ToonyMan on December 21, 2013, 09:43:48 pm

Also don't the dopps die from starvation if they can't eat for two nights in a row?  Wouldn't they have succumbed by now??

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 3 brings death and release
Post by: Toaster on December 21, 2013, 09:46:28 pm

I think SuperBlackCat is lying about being a Hivemind, but in any case he absolutely should be lynched today regardless of anything else.  Why?  If it's true that he converted Ranger, it would have been successful.  Convert is a NIGHT action and Ranger died to a MORNING kill.

Meph:  Hivemind-converted players show as such on dead, correct?


The only thing worse than a Hivemind is an Exterminator, but both are prime targets for lynching.  In case Jim saying it wasn't clear enough, let me quote the role list:

Quote from: Mephansteras on November 26, 2013, 12:05:45 pm

    Victory: The Hivemind wins when all opposing groups are dead and the town has no way of stopping them (Vig, War Vet, etc)

Does that sound like someone we want to not lynch?  If you're note voting SBC right now, you are a fool.   Even whoever the dopp (IE: Tiruin) is should want the hivemind out.


Makeinu:

Quote from: makeinu on December 21, 2013, 04:38:29 pm

Toaster checks for race on Caz, I guess. If dopp, that won't tell us much of anything.

Why would I not be checking Tiruin? 

It's noteworthy that since N1 and N2 did not have successful dopp kills, the dopp cannot no-kill.

Quote from: Mephansteras on November 26, 2013, 12:05:45 pm

    The Doppelgangers may choose to skip thier night kill. They may only do this twice in a row before their bloodlust forces them to kill.

Well, at least I'm pretty sure this rule applies in this case.


Tiruin:

Quote from: Tiruin on December 21, 2013, 02:21:22 pm

TOONYMAN: ROLEBLOCK SBC. LYNCH SOMEONE ELSE TODAY EVERYONE.

While you should note what I said above about voting SBC, do realize that the "someone else" would be you and oh hey Toony beat me to it.


Ooooh wait.  Tiruin, did you get converted?  That's the only thing I can come up with for your illogical defense of SBC.

Quote from: Tiruin on December 21, 2013, 04:29:11 pm

If I live, I'll be blocking either makeinu or Toony

Didn't you claim Guard?



Toony:

Quote from: ToonyMan on December 21, 2013, 09:40:20 pm

Watch SBC actually be an Exterminator with a Dead Man Bomb.

Meph nerfed it into the Holdout Blaster so it's cool.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 3 brings death and release
Post by: Mephansteras on December 21, 2013, 10:07:09 pm

Quote from: Toaster on December 21, 2013, 09:46:28 pm

Meph:  Hivemind-converted players show as such on dead, correct?

That is correct.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 3 brings death and release
Post by: makeinu on December 21, 2013, 10:15:03 pm

Quote from: Toaster on December 21, 2013, 09:46:28 pm

I think SuperBlackCat is lying about being a Hivemind,

Well, by way of technicality, Superblackcat still hasn't claimed anything. Which, for me, is more than reason enough to vote him out. That he might be a Hivemind only makes it worse. At least he's not a Xenozooligist or an Exterminator, or, if he is, he sucks at it.

Quote

Makeinu:

Quote from: makeinu on December 21, 2013, 04:38:29 pm

Toaster checks for race on Caz, I guess. If dopp, that won't tell us much of anything.

Why would I not be checking Tiruin? 

No reason why or why not, actually. Your call.

Quote

It's noteworthy that since N1 and N2 did not have successful dopp kills, the dopp cannot no-kill.

Quote from: Mephansteras on November 26, 2013, 12:05:45 pm

    The Doppelgangers may choose to skip thier night kill. They may only do this twice in a row before their bloodlust forces them to kill.

Well, at least I'm pretty sure this rule applies in this case.

I wonder what happens if their kill is blocked instead of voluntarily skipped. I presume the same, but it's an interesting thought.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 3 brings death and release
Post by: Persus13 on December 21, 2013, 10:16:01 pm

SuperBlackCat, I'm sorry, but you can't have converted Ranger last night since he didn't show up as converted.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 3 brings death and release
Post by: Toaster on December 21, 2013, 10:31:08 pm

Quote from: Superblackcat on December 21, 2013, 02:00:24 pm

BTW, Caz, Max tried to convert you day one... I tried to convert Ranger Day 2...

Quote from: Mephansteras on December 21, 2013, 10:07:09 pm

Quote from: Toaster on December 21, 2013, 09:46:28 pm

Meph:  Hivemind-converted players show as such on dead, correct?

That is correct.

There ya go.  Lynch all liars, and all that.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 3 brings death and release
Post by: Tiruin on December 22, 2013, 12:23:19 am

Quote from: Toaster on December 21, 2013, 09:46:28 pm

Tiruin:

Quote from: Tiruin on December 21, 2013, 02:21:22 pm

TOONYMAN: ROLEBLOCK SBC. LYNCH SOMEONE ELSE TODAY EVERYONE.

While you should note what I said above about voting SBC, do realize that the "someone else" would be you and oh hey Toony beat me to it.


Ooooh wait.  Tiruin, did you get converted?  That's the only thing I can come up with for your illogical defense of SBC.

Quote from: Tiruin on December 21, 2013, 04:29:11 pm

If I live, I'll be blocking either makeinu or Toony

Didn't you claim Guard?

I was stressed and didn't care at all how everyone would act because I saw you all as a jaded bunch of angry peasants. My 'illogical' defense already states that I'm with him being lynched! Why do people love slandering me so much?

The bolded portion? I already hate this game for its stupid players in the safety of crowds, but still I remain firm on the fact that NONE OF YOU ARE DETAILING WHY I'M A TARGET FOR LYNCH. Defensive? That's me speaking against the majority in an overly assertive tone! Defending Imp? Take it both ways: I saw Imp as Town and was darn shocked to see her flip scum! Next, I would be a darn bad scum player given that notion of defending Imp as despite my rule towards here back there, I'd at least give her a null eye to distance myself as well as give me space to attack her. Does anyone think I'd be defending Imp like that if I was scum? Anyone? Nobody has mentioned this but all I see from everyone are labels and mudslinging.

Painful.

Quote from: Toaster on December 21, 2013, 09:46:28 pm

Does that sound like someone we want to not lynch?  If you're note voting SBC right now, you are a fool.   Even whoever the dopp (IE: Tiruin) is should want the hivemind out.

Haha, Tiruin is a FOOL! Let's REJOICE and taunt her MORE!

PS: If I was converted, then I'd die tonight nonetheless.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 3 brings death and release
Post by: Toaster on December 22, 2013, 12:40:42 am

Tiruin:  Read me (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=133676.msg4849109#msg4849109)

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 3 brings death and release
Post by: makeinu on December 22, 2013, 01:00:49 am

Quote from: Tiruin on December 22, 2013, 12:23:19 am

Next, I would be a darn bad scum player given that notion of defending Imp as despite my rule towards here back there, I'd at least give her a null eye to distance myself as well as give me space to attack her. Does anyone think I'd be defending Imp like that if I was scum? Anyone? Nobody has mentioned this but all I see from everyone are labels and mudslinging.

WIFOM.

"Tiruin wouldn't keep defending Imp after she flipped dopp, because that would be bad scum play, therefore she must be Town, unless she wanted us to think that, in which case she's scum, but....."

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 3 brings death and release
Post by: Tiruin on December 22, 2013, 01:10:17 am

Quote from: Toaster on December 21, 2013, 09:46:28 pm

Quote from: Tiruin on December 21, 2013, 04:29:11 pm

If I live, I'll be blocking either makeinu or Toony

Didn't you claim Guard?

Also yes I claimed Heroic Guard. I don't even get a single saving grace here that while everything I say is under scrutiny, I'm being labeled and not even given the justice of a whole case at me. I'd be firmly ok with someone, who at least, has the "time" and the "effort" to build up a case against me, but all I see are pointing fingers and pointed tongues.

I am horrified by this metaphor to my government right now.

Meaning: You all say that I'm a good-no, the best candidate for the lynch. I don't see anyone building a case, at all. It's Sunday here, and right darn one day until Day end. This justifies my idea of a lazy Town, and despite my alignment right now, I would really wish scum wouldn't have died so that we'd at least see this game not become a mockery of 'let's rely on roles and abilities to root out scum'.

Hey. Newsflash people. One of you is lying about what they can do and adopted an alibi. Let me collate those claims. So far, I've been flailing and also failing to come up to those expectations I say myself, up there. Hypocritical, I know! But this fool at least has some dignity in her to at least do something other than sit around and let this stagnate.

Superblackcat is up for the lynch! Oh, let's not at least give him a saving grace there until we're sure--I mean, let's wait for the information to come! It's not like others have tried to bridge that gap. No, of course! Tiruin's utterly Foolish! Now we're angry at her for her words, but this is just her responding in turn to how 'justified' she feels about people gunning for her lynch.

Bottom line: Poor reasoning. I love how I'm being set-up like this. Like I said, I'm ok with me being lynched for the good of the Town. I'm not ok with being lynched under these conditions--all I'm getting are death threats, and I dearly expect more from a game where most of the surviving players are more Town than not!
I don't even get the benefit of a good case: Links and quotes, against me, no. I get slander and BS thrown at my face!
Why? People see lots of investigative roles. They're subconsciously feeling 'safe'. Do I see anyone else poking there? No. All I see is "Tiruin or SBC" as the words of the masses.
Those aren't good words. While I do fail in saying my intent correctly, let me ratify it into this: I'm seeing a very lethal factor of someone hiding in the fold there, and giving out words on who is best to lynch given this scenario--its his perfect hideaway given the lax conscience of the current times.

Hence why I say that people should look back and recheck. What's the response? "Oh Tiruin, but YOU should be the one who'll be lynched next!" What do I feel? Alone. Disgusted. Betrayed. Did I get any person willing to listen? Yeah, sure, but I got those people willing to listen under the guise of fear and brevity. Questions angled as if I'm talking to the Spanish Inquisition for supporting a minor belief. I got frustrated, I fumbled and even probably got desperate to get someone to listen. But part of me gave up. Part of me didn't want to care anymore in this world of apathy--I mean, why should I, given how everyone elses' response to this scenario being a cold shoulder and an ear listening to only what they want to hear?

Look at how you all jumped on SBC there.

..Unvote. But enough of these pointing fingers. That makes me no better than the gist of what is generally going on today. I've seen little scumhunting done, and I'm making the best of this darned Christmas (yay, heresy on my part. I'd be better of lynched so I can SHUT UP). What I've done, though, is nothing that makes me anywhere innocent. I've acted on impulse and the only thing that saves me here is...looking back at my intent--I based my acts here and reluctance on what happened during that BM, and playing as Imp is the only way I can get this back on the line. Shame on me, obviously.

Spoiler: Toaster (click to show/hide)

Quote from: Toaster on December 19, 2013, 10:53:50 pm

Well, since everyone else has, I'll join the club.

I am the Agent.

N1 I inspected Caz.  That was a waste.
N2 I inspect Persus.  He came back Human.

Spoiler: Persus (click to show/hide)

Detailed:
> Protects Jim N1.
> Said to Protect Toony.

Quote

Okay. I'm going to protect Toony then.

Backing up

Quote from: Persus13 on December 18, 2013, 07:54:36 pm

Since it looks like I'm going to be lynched, I might as well post some things.

First of, I'm going to role claim. I am this guy:

Quote from: makeinu on December 18, 2013, 05:01:00 pm

Third, unnamed, Observant Guard claim, Town presumed but not claimed, guarded the Mind Stealer. No kill attempt.

Makeinu's contacted me with a PM early D2, and we discussed our suspicions of people because at the time our scum lists looked very similar. We also exchanged Night action information.
[...]
My advice for tomorrow. Caz, SBC and Jim are all people I think are good scum candidates. my top choice at the moment however is SBC or Caz. If Caz is scum, I'm pretty sure Jim will be scum then.

Oh, and one last tidbit of information:
Last Night I protected Jim. He's the Mind Stealer.

This is my notes on him IN PMs:

Quote

The Mind Stealer is Jim. I believe i said this in my "goodbye" post.

I protected him N1 becuase I figured that scum would kill an experienced player first.

My top suspect right now is SBC, because I found reasons for voting me were bad meta and Jim's reasons. Also, Max being scummy D1 was another factor. However Makeinu, you, and Toaster are all on my shortlist of suspects as well.

Toonyman being scum I just can't see given his roleclaim.

Jim and Caz being scum is something I still think possible, but not likely.

And my last response to him.

Quote

...I believe the last dopp is SBC. You guard Toony, I'll do either makeinu or Jim.
Nah, I'll make it makeinu instead.

Spoiler: Tiruin (click to show/hide)

Quote from: Tiruin on December 20, 2013, 10:14:32 am

I protected Imp N1 - due to my personal outlook on her and her analytical acumen, my claim and my actions D2 were to inspire quite much anything, I didn't have a goal for my claim, as it had no value other than me being a literal martyr. I sorta played a gambit that Imp was town, hence my defense of her--Though, I suspect those who out me as scum because of that; sense being that if I'm scum, I don't blatantly defend my teammates on the noose when the case drops to that point (ie Previous suspicion raise on valid notion).
[...]
N2 - makeinu. We've a Detective (and I guess I'll spill what SBC said anyways). Gumshoes are usually important and given our chum-talk last night (quite the joker, silly man. :I) I surmised that he'd be a better target for scum. So I defended him [Me and Persus agreed to protect one or the other. Guard-talk in betwix the lines.]. Even before N2, I decided to protect makeinu because he claimed Detective and by his reasoning beforehand.

Spoiler: ToonyMan (click to show/hide)

Quote from: ToonyMan on December 16, 2013, 02:02:58 pm

I'm a Psychic Warden and blocked him Night 1.  There was no dopp kill Night 1.  I wasn't initially going to role-claim, but with some pretty incriminating evidence in front of me I see no reason not to.  Care to explain, Imp?

Quote from: ToonyMan on December 19, 2013, 02:15:21 pm

I blocked RangerCado last night thinking he was Imp's scum partner.  I'm not sure if that led to his death, but there wasn't a dopp kill again which wasn't my doing this time.

PS

Quote from: ToonyMan on December 19, 2013, 09:16:39 pm

I'll role-block Toaster tonight if Tiruin isn't the last dopp.  Our guards can protect me and Makeinu.

The only claimed Guards here are me and Persus.

More later because argh.

---

---

---

PPE: Toaster
...Right. I've already shamed my name enough by not even speaking to others in a respectful way, even having to edit my post to make it sound less angry while writing.

PPE:

Quote from: makeinu on December 22, 2013, 01:00:49 am

Quote from: Tiruin on December 22, 2013, 12:23:19 am

Next, I would be a darn bad scum player given that notion of defending Imp as despite my rule towards here back there, I'd at least give her a null eye to distance myself as well as give me space to attack her. Does anyone think I'd be defending Imp like that if I was scum? Anyone? Nobody has mentioned this but all I see from everyone are labels and mudslinging.

WIFOM.

"Tiruin wouldn't keep defending Imp after she flipped dopp, because that would be bad scum play, therefore she must be Town, unless she wanted us to think that, in which case she's scum, but....."

NOT WIFOM.
Check the logic. While it appears as WIFOM at first glance, use your common sense! Actually, that's me saying 'What do you REALLY think about that?'

I mean, you don't even know this person. See what I mean by brevity and poking at people? I'm getting one-liners, and they're not even detailed!

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 3 brings death and release
Post by: Tiruin on December 22, 2013, 02:18:03 am

Quote from: Tiruin on December 22, 2013, 01:10:17 am

Quote from: makeinu on December 22, 2013, 01:00:49 am

Quote from: Tiruin on December 22, 2013, 12:23:19 am

Next, I would be a darn bad scum player given that notion of defending Imp as despite my rule towards here back there, I'd at least give her a null eye to distance myself as well as give me space to attack her. Does anyone think I'd be defending Imp like that if I was scum? Anyone? Nobody has mentioned this but all I see from everyone are labels and mudslinging.

WIFOM.

"Tiruin wouldn't keep defending Imp after she flipped dopp, because that would be bad scum play, therefore she must be Town, unless she wanted us to think that, in which case she's scum, but....."

NOT WIFOM.
Check the logic. While it appears as WIFOM at first glance, use your common sense! Actually, that's me saying 'What do you REALLY think about that?'

I mean, you don't even know this person. See what I mean by brevity and poking at people? I'm getting one-liners, and they're not even detailed!

Redetailing: Given how I remember you acting against me on 'not voting any scum player', I'd also address that as WIFOM, and that action as you subtly building a case from the viewpoint of 'Tiruin's a coward who wouldn't vote her teammates'. I've seen little questioning along those lines other than blatant accusations however.

What I'd like to see if how people would see it other than a handwave to discard it in its entirety. What I'm expecting as a reply is "But you're scum because x, y, z." What I need to listen to is why I'm scum behind those lines you speak of. It's WIFOM! Oh sure, it is if you see it from one point of view. It also isn't WIFOM because it is an attempt to get your personal opinion about the matter! Anyone who is lazy would rely on WIFOM without checking the context to determine what is WIFOM and what isn't. This scenario has its roots in tangible ground--relying on how you analyze this situation. Is it WIFOM if that's the case?

---

Quote from: Tiruin on December 22, 2013, 01:10:17 am

More later because argh.

Yes, Caz, I'm having a villainous breakdown here! Joy!
Redact Shorten Request.


Anyway, use of this fancy thing by copy pasting the original OP URL results in a...very nice touch of post-tracking. (http://www.ocf.berkeley.edu/~azhou/projects/LT/) That's amazing ZU.

> Can someone explain what happened during this time? (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=133676.msg4846286#msg4846286)
At that time, makeinu/Jim/Persus: What were you guys thinking?

makeinu: You still haven't replied to me regarding what you were doing by 'implying that thing with Imp and her votecount' (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=133676.msg4822556#msg4822556). However you fall more Town than before due to a re-read. Interactions speak for themselves; (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=133676.msg4845451#msg4845451) yet I'm still confounded by the whole thing with Persus. Could you summarize it all up for me?

On another note: (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=133676.msg4848188#msg4848188) I'm unsure if you fully replied to my queries here. The wording of 'Sprint' and 'meta' really brings the focus towards those instead of what you seem to be actually saying--that you note scummy stuff at me. If so, then why are you even mentioning those 'metatells' or whatever as if they're relevant to my case?

Backing up to the present: Why are you giving me the benefit of the doubt now? You seem to be intentionally ignoring me despite that quick shot at me on this 'WIFOM'.

Next, given your experience (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=133676.msg4845058#msg4845058) in PMs, why do I note that you are reluctant to PM those you deem 'scummy'?

You also seem to have a snipped post. What was in there? (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=133676.msg4846248#msg4846248) Why did you vote to cause a 'tie' at that point in time, discarding other factors?

Checking the vote logs and the context of those votes/other related posts, I'm shifting my summary on this quickpost before returning to those logs:

Toaster I'm ruling out as Town given the dual-nature of votes stacking on him previously. I'm protecting this guy tonight.
Persus: Multiple various votes. Other than the benefit of my correspondence to him as guard-buddies, he's been my suspect then. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=133676.msg4844020#msg4844020) I'm unsure if I reposted my reasons in public, but I'd ask on your choices behind the lines. When you asked me to guard makeinu--I said I'd be guarding Jim instead.
You hopped towards a quick

Quote

Okay. I'm going to protect Toony then.

What are your sights on everyone back then, and is there any difference from then, to now?

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 3 brings death and release
Post by: Jim Groovester on December 22, 2013, 02:39:37 am

Quote from: ToonyMan on December 21, 2013, 09:43:48 pm

Also don't the dopps die from starvation if they can't eat for two nights in a row?  Wouldn't they have succumbed by now??

It's only two nights without attempts. If they attempt but are not successful then they're fine.

I was wondering the same thing so I asked Meph.

Privately, in case the final dopp wasn't quite familiar with Paranormals and withheld the dopp kill for le WIFOMS.

Quote from: Tiruin on December 22, 2013, 02:18:03 am

> Can someone explain what happened during this time? (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=133676.msg4846286#msg4846286)
At that time, makeinu/Jim/Persus: What were you guys thinking?

makeinu decided that that was the perfect time to engage in last minute vote gaming, which is still a horrible fucking idea that nobody who's town has any business doing.

Everyone else acted predictably given the situation.

Persus13, being town (probably), tried to ensure a lynch, even if it was on himself.

Imp, being scum, tried to get a mislynch.

I, being an alien with a vested interest in staying alive to maintain the ability to choose which side to play, tried to stay alive.

Superblackcat, being... whatever he is, did... something.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 3 brings death and release
Post by: Tiruin on December 22, 2013, 02:42:24 am

Now back to those Spoilers.

Spoiler: makeinu (click to show/hide)

Quote from: makeinu; #103 on December 18, 2013, 05:01:00 pm

I'm a Town Detective. [N1], I found a Harvester with Mind Stealer power. They had targeted Caz.

N2 - Tried to go on Superblackcat; given circumstantial evidence, this is true

So that's 5 actors out of the relative

Spoiler: audience (click to show/hide)

    RangerCado - Human Intelligence Scientist {Surveillance System} (He got nothing btw)

    Superblackcat - IMPERATIVE LYNCH. OR, we can let him free and lynch someone else (please make it be Tiruin so she doesn't have to deal with anymore of this trash) given how we know the Hivemind. Best case? Assume a dopp kill and someone gets converted. Tomorrow lynch SBC. Persus Guards the people as I'm lynched. Meaning: Guard those who claimed to be actors.

    Toaster
    Persus13 }This dude inspects out as Human by Toaster, so he confirms both him and Toaster (unless he's a Dopp leader..which is doubtful given the query below)
    ToonyMan - Possibly cleared because of that Imp-kick; actually, I mostly do believe he is cleared because of that. I'd prefer someone to inspect him though.

    Caz } Non-actor, mindless vanilla; shares a wincon with Jim now. Previously a Mil. Scientist w/ assassin bot
    Jim Groovester } Jim can Mindsteal. Unsure whether he'll be a better choice to be Toony'd than anyone else.

    Tiruin
    makeinu

    TheDarkStar - Doppelganger (Anti-Tech Field) } I've no idea if this is natural or a pseudo-scientist so I went with the 'naturally gifted'.
    Imp - Tough Doppelganger } Dead scum.

makeinuDid I miss anything related to voting Jim? You believed him town more than anything else here. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=133676.msg4846258#msg4846258) Could you also detail why you did so, or link it-if I missed it? Because this speaks of doubt all the same, but sure doubt. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=133676.msg4846293#msg4846293)
@Persus: I've to wonder why you voted Jim back then (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=133676.msg4846275#msg4846275), and that minor note on doubting Jim's Jimmyness (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=133676.msg4846283#msg4846283). Why did you vote him? What did you think of Jim in his entirety?


Query at this point: Given that RangerCado was blocked by Toony--and Cado died via a MORNING kill to flip town, then what came of the dopp kill? The last dopp must have a 'human'-ish role as a cover given that notion. The dopp couldn't have targeted makeinu or Toony given my or Persus' claims, but matters point that there was no kill attempted at all.

makeinu: Why did you target Superblackcat? Why did you add the 'Town' to your 'Detective'?
Toaster: Why did you target Persus?

Everyone: I've listed everyone and see makeinu left in between. What made him innocent via that process of elimination y'all love hugging? That he spotted a Hive Mind?

PPE Ah.

Quote from: Jim Groovester on December 22, 2013, 02:39:37 am

Quote from: ToonyMan on December 21, 2013, 09:43:48 pm

Also don't the dopps die from starvation if they can't eat for two nights in a row?  Wouldn't they have succumbed by now??

It's only two nights without attempts. If they attempt but are not successful then they're fine.

I was wondering the same thing so I asked Meph.

Privately, in case the final dopp wasn't quite familiar with Paranormals and withheld the dopp kill for le WIFOMS.

They DID attempt, le N1- Imp carried it out, as inferred. Unless..wait, no, this is the best true option--I doubt a Tough Doppleganger can coincide with any human-type-role.

N2 - They didn't attempt as proven by the above. Played it safe, I believe.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 3 brings death and release
Post by: Tiruin on December 22, 2013, 02:43:40 am

EBWOP: Actually, Jim and Caz are cleared--I didn't put them under the green though given the choice of action @N1.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 3 brings death and release
Post by: Tiruin on December 22, 2013, 02:54:06 am

EBWOP^II: Toaster is cleared by me via the multitude of his actions. The context and how he relates with others never tripped a scum-wire in my intuition, nor in my logicbook of general logic. Whichever it is, unless Toony's playing a masochist-game, then he's cleared in the same. Caz and Jim, by virtue of being absent for said kill during that time, and Imp flipping scum after admitting (probably as a claimant along the 'I'm guilty' line, throwing off suspicion and which seems like the best case scenario now) would also give credence to their innocence.
^{Thrice-darn this.}

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 3 brings death and release
Post by: Tiruin on December 22, 2013, 03:02:57 am

ALSO.

It would not make sense if Imp wasn't the killer back then--N1. Her ally is dead and there is another who is still alive. Given the prospect of Toony's Block, and Imp being the sole other person ("it could be a bus"-scenario), it would completely invalidate anything else short of a chance of winning if he was scum. Meaning: It doesn't make any sense--and even if it did, Toony would have to contend with the future tides of having to wrangle the Town for many consecutive days. It is justified that Imp did the kill given that the number of dopps (2) added to the notion of a lacking kill clears Toony out moreso than his actions beforehand (..which is very little given Sinlessmoon's..disappearance).

Persus and Toaster are both complementary (total opposites clearing each other out) via how one would talk about the other. Toaster's alibi being, like I said, his actions before hand--and in saying Persus is human..well, given a one-over-the-other scenario, he's ultimately cleared if Toaster isn't scum (and if he was, then that'd be truly shrewd play. Something I can't see being scum-subterfuge in all 36 posts of Toaster's.

Superblackcat..Um..I really have to talk to you about this post-game, but seeing that it probably won't matter, here's some advice: When in doubt--don't tell off everything. Maybe its the fact that we're buddies out of game that led you to say that? Maybe you wanted someone to trust due to your luck? Regardless, if you did convert one, two or even none, I'd advise you that in Mafia...

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Trust nobody until you're SURE you can trust them (I've broken this rule a lot of times. Even just recently! So no pressure! ).

If your role is somewhat 'technically' skewed from the common (common=Town given the numbers) goal, then it is best to keep your dice where you can trust they'll land, and better yet to be honest when being asked for information--you can take the diplomatic way or you can take the assertive way out. However if you need advice, then just drop by right now in PMs..given how they're actually free and you're actually caught red-handed.. :v

So. What does everyone think now?

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 3 brings death and release
Post by: Jim Groovester on December 22, 2013, 03:32:02 am

Toaster, you neglected to mention your reasons for choosing your targets for inspect.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 3 brings death and release
Post by: makeinu on December 22, 2013, 04:36:42 am

Daaaaamn, nesting tags are cool...

Image deleted on request - Mephansteras

Meh, I don't really feel like summarizing, but here goes: Tiruin, your arguments are not convincing me at all.

Quote from: Tiruin on December 22, 2013, 02:42:24 am

makeinuDid I miss anything related to voting Jim? You believed him town more than anything else here. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=133676.msg4846258#msg4846258) Could you also detail why you did so, or link it-if I missed it? Because this speaks of doubt all the same, but sure doubt. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=133676.msg4846293#msg4846293)

As Jim noted, I played at last-minute "vote gaming", because we were about to lynch someone I was convinced IS Town, and let someone I was convinced was Dopp walk. I could've been wrong, and it's a happy circumstance that I wasn't on the second half of that, but even after all of that, I entertained the prospect that I was wrong entirely. I'm not psychic; if I were, I wouldn't be working for a living. So I apologized in advance for being wrong in the event that I'd just created this GIANT TOWN HAVE NO BUSINESS DOING THAT mess for no reason. I'm still wagering, given all the evidence, that I'm not on the first as well, and here's the FUN PART!

Come tonight, when I scope out Persus for a role read? I'll know his role claim is accurate, and he's actually what he claims to be. Which will thoroughly clear him. And if I die tonight? Fine, you'll know whom to blame for it.

Neat, right?

Ooooooor, I could take a read on you, and check your role claim. Would you prefer that? Given that it's Superblackcat who'll be given the ticket home today, not you? That would not, of course, prove you're Town, because you could be a Dopp Heroic Guard, but at least we'd know for sure that you're a Heroic Guard, and not something else entirely.

---

Also, Jim?

Quote from: Jim Groovester on December 22, 2013, 02:39:37 am

Quote from: Tiruin on December 22, 2013, 02:18:03 am

> Can someone explain what happened during this time? (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=133676.msg4846286#msg4846286)
At that time, makeinu/Jim/Persus: What were you guys thinking?

makeinu decided that that was the perfect time to engage in last minute vote gaming, which is still a horrible fucking idea that nobody who's town has any business doing.

Ehrmagerd...

Sorry that you and I will just have to fucking disagree on this particular instance. You were so blind insistent that Persus was scum that nothing was going to convince you otherwise save something shocking enough to shake you out of the complacency.

That is what it took.

Oh, wait, where else was it that you were so blind insistent that another player was scum that you weren't going to be talked out of it? And what was the outcome of that again?

So, if I'd played by your rules, where would we be? Down a guard, up a Tough Dopp, and presumably so much better informed that it all would be worth it.

*holsters snark cannon*

---

Quote

Query at this point: Given that RangerCado was blocked by Toony--and Cado died via a MORNING kill to flip town, then what came of the dopp kill? The last dopp must have a 'human'-ish role as a cover given that notion. The dopp couldn't have targeted makeinu or Toony given my or Persus' claims, but matters point that there was no kill attempted at all.

Vanilla Town and all Dopps without an actual role (like, say, a Dopp anyfreakin'role but just Dopp) all show a visible "No role". Which means I can't find the Dopps directly. Toaster can, because he can see their Race, and there's no role that has the "Visible race" attribute. So, yeah, the last Dopp hid N2, laid low, most likely because there was no way to manage a kill without being outed.

"Say, it's really odd that the guy so-and-so was covering got night killed by the Dopp! What's up with that, so-and-so?"

Oh, wait, you noticed that too:

Quote

They DID attempt, le N1- Imp carried it out, as inferred. Unless..wait, no, this is the best true option--I doubt a Tough Doppleganger can coincide with any human-type-role.

N2 - They didn't attempt as proven by the above. Played it safe, I believe.

Oh, and apparently I can't find someone hiding their role behind an anti-tech field. I should've logicked that one out before, silly me. Good thing I didn't have to target TheDarkStar for investigation. I'd've been double screwed.

---

Quote

makeinu: Why did you target Superblackcat? Why did you add the 'Town' to your 'Detective'?

First, because Max White felt off to me before he replaced out, and Superblackcat continued to feel off to me after he replaced in. Funny how that works...

Second. What's the point of this question? Because I'm THE fucking Town Detective, that's why!

---

Quote

Everyone: I've listed everyone and see makeinu left in between. What made him innocent via that process of elimination y'all love hugging? That he spotted a Hive Mind?

Left "in between" what and what?

Ah, I see, let's deflect suspicion at makeinu, because SQUIRREL!!

Quote from: Tiruin on December 22, 2013, 03:02:57 am

ALSO. *stuff*

Quote from: Tiruin on December 22, 2013, 02:54:06 am

EBWOP^II: *other stuff*

So, neat, everyone's clear in your book except the two we know are Dopps, and....

Me, I guess. I suppose that helps explain this part.

Quote from: Tiruin on December 22, 2013, 01:10:17 am

Quote from: makeinu on December 22, 2013, 01:00:49 am

Quote from: Tiruin on December 22, 2013, 12:23:19 am

Next, I would be a darn bad scum player given that notion of defending Imp as despite my rule towards here back there, I'd at least give her a null eye to distance myself as well as give me space to attack her. Does anyone think I'd be defending Imp like that if I was scum? Anyone? Nobody has mentioned this but all I see from everyone are labels and mudslinging.

WIFOM.

"Tiruin wouldn't keep defending Imp after she flipped dopp, because that would be bad scum play, therefore she must be Town, unless she wanted us to think that, in which case she's scum, but....."

NOT WIFOM.
Check the logic. While it appears as WIFOM at first glance, use your common sense! Actually, that's me saying 'What do you REALLY think about that?'

I mean, you don't even know this person. See what I mean by brevity and poking at people? I'm getting one-liners, and they're not even detailed!

Oh holy fuck, how is that not WIFOM? You clearly want us to question why you would do something so ... bad scum play ... as defending Imp so that we'll be lead to think exactly that, that you can't possibly be scum, because that would just be stupid to still be defending a known scum, so clearly you must be Town, or stupid, or scum playing badly, or....

Need I really go on?

You might be Town. You might be scum playing badly. You might be scum playing really well laying down a glass of wine for us to ponder. You might be any of those things and more.

But you're not stupid.

WIFOM at first glance is still WIFOM, no matter how much time is spent analyzing it. As soon as it leads into that circular "but if..." reasoning, it's WIFOM. And that did, right from word one.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 3 brings death and release
Post by: Jim Groovester on December 22, 2013, 05:13:43 am

The worst part when people get lucky is that they feel they somehow played well.

Meph could've cut off the votes at any time, and your vote gaming nearly let scum get away with a mislynch. It was only by a lucky turn and extra time that it ended up being a dopp lynch instead.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 3 brings death and release
Post by: makeinu on December 22, 2013, 05:16:28 am

Quote from: Jim Groovester on December 22, 2013, 05:13:43 am

The worst part when people get lucky is that they feel they somehow played well.

I'll take luck.

Quote

Meph could've cut off the votes at any time, and your vote gaming nearly let scum get away with a mislynch. It was only by a lucky turn and extra time that it ended up being a dopp lynch instead.

My initial vote change would've tied the votes, and was before the official day end. Unless you still want to insist that Persus is scum, in which event, make the case. Otherwise, I stopped a mislynch.

But I like disagreements. They move things forward.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 3 brings death and release
Post by: Caz on December 22, 2013, 08:41:49 am

Superblackcat[/color]

Roll on day 4.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 3 brings death and release
Post by: Persus13 on December 22, 2013, 12:22:36 pm

Tiruin:
I'd like to point out that I'm voting SBC because he has know lied not once, but twice. He claimed to be an ordinary towny from Makeinu's inspect, something you yourself pointed out was false. Then he claimed to have converted RangerCado last night, something that couldn't have happened given the fact that it would have been revealed when he role flipped. Wait a second, did SBC convert you last night? Is that why you're defending him so much?

Quote from: Tiruin on December 22, 2013, 02:18:03 am

Persus: Multiple various votes. Other than the benefit of my correspondence to him as guard-buddies, he's been my suspect then. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=133676.msg4844020#msg4844020) I'm unsure if I reposted my reasons in public, but I'd ask on your choices behind the lines. When you asked me to guard makeinu--I said I'd be guarding Jim instead.
You hopped towards a quick

Quote

Okay. I'm going to protect Toony then.

What are your sights on everyone back then, and is there any difference from then, to now?

My opinions on players back then.
Toony seems town with a useful role. Protecting him is important.
Makeinu has claimed Detective. Useful role. If not scum he needs protecting.
Toaster-unknown
Tiruin-claimed Heroic Guard, not voting scum like normal, so town?
Jim-Mind Stealer, scum if Caz is.
Imp-Imp is actually scum? She was one of my suspects.
RangerCado-no clue

Quote from: Tiruin on December 22, 2013, 02:42:24 am

@Persus: I've to wonder why you voted Jim back then (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=133676.msg4846275#msg4846275), and that minor note on doubting Jim's Jimmyness (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=133676.msg4846283#msg4846283). Why did you vote him? What did you think of Jim in his entirety?

I voted him because he seemed to be acting differently D2 than D1 along with the fact that I had been informed by Makeinu that Jim was the Mind Stealer. I was of the opinion that Caz was scummy D1 and that and Jim's behavior D2 led me to believe that Jim was scum. I had been voting Jim for a while, only unvoting when Makeinu tried to pull vote shenanigans to get a no lynch. When Imp offered to assist a Jim lynch, I was willing to do so, given the fact he was my top scum pick at that point in time. As for my doubts about Jim being scum, I always get last minute doubts about whether or not someone's scum, I just rarely reveal them. In Supernatural I was even doubting whether or not Max was scum right before the lynch.

Quote from: Tiruin on December 22, 2013, 02:42:24 am

Everyone: I've listed everyone and see makeinu left in between. What made him innocent via that process of elimination y'all love hugging? That he spotted a Hive Mind?

Mainly the fact that he was involved in both scum lynches.

Jim:

Quote from: Jim Groovester on December 22, 2013, 02:39:37 am

makeinu decided that that was the perfect time to engage in last minute vote gaming, which is still a horrible fucking idea that nobody who's town has any business doing.

This is making me wonder: What are your thoughts on who is scum? What is your opinion of Tiruin and Makeinu right now?

Makeinu:

Quote from: makeinu on December 22, 2013, 04:36:42 am

Meh, I don't really feel like summarizing, but here goes: Tiruin, your arguments are not convincing me at all.

Really. So why not go through and refute it all?

Quote from: Tiruin on December 22, 2013, 02:42:24 am

As Jim noted, I played at last-minute "vote gaming", because we were about to lynch someone I was convinced IS Town, and let someone I was convinced was Dopp walk. I could've been wrong, and it's a happy circumstance that I wasn't on the second half of that, but even after all of that, I entertained the prospect that I was wrong entirely. I'm not psychic; if I were, I wouldn't be working for a living. So I apologized in advance for being wrong in the event that I'd just created this GIANT TOWN HAVE NO BUSINESS DOING THAT mess for no reason. I'm still wagering, given all the evidence, that I'm not on the first as well, and here's the FUN PART!

Why were you so convinced I was town. And why were you willing to NL for me? NL doesn't help. Lynching me would have given town information about me, and D3 would have been D2 all over again except Town lost a night. That's either nearsighted or just downright scummy.

Quote from: makeinu on December 22, 2013, 04:36:42 am

Come tonight, when I scope out Persus for a role read? I'll know his role claim is accurate, and he's actually what he claims to be. Which will thoroughly clear him. And if I die tonight? Fine, you'll know whom to blame for it.

This is WIFOM.

Quote from: makeinu on December 22, 2013, 04:36:42 am

Ooooooor, I could take a read on you, and check your role claim. Would you prefer that? Given that it's Superblackcat who'll be given the ticket home today, not you? That would not, of course, prove you're Town, because you could be a Dopp Heroic Guard, but at least we'd know for sure that you're a Heroic Guard, and not something else entirely.

Quote from: makeinu on December 22, 2013, 04:36:42 am

Quote from: Jim Groovester on December 22, 2013, 02:39:37 am

Quote from: Tiruin on December 22, 2013, 02:18:03 am

> Can someone explain what happened during this time? (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=133676.msg4846286#msg4846286)
At that time, makeinu/Jim/Persus: What were you guys thinking?

makeinu decided that that was the perfect time to engage in last minute vote gaming, which is still a horrible fucking idea that nobody who's town has any business doing.

Ehrmagerd...

Sorry that you and I will just have to fucking disagree on this particular instance. You were so blind insistent that Persus was scum that nothing was going to convince you otherwise save something shocking enough to shake you out of the complacency.

So? Jim may have been convinced I was scum, but when I flipped town, Jim would have gotten Info.

Quote from: makeinu on December 22, 2013, 04:36:42 am

Oh, wait, where else was it that you were so blind insistent that another player was scum that you weren't going to be talked out of it? And what was the outcome of that again?

So, if I'd played by your rules, where would we be? Down a guard, up a Tough Dopp, and presumably so much better informed that it all would be worth it.

You weren't playing well, you were very lucky. It was only because I pointed out to Meph he had Jim voting twice that we ended up with an Imp lynch at all. I wonder why no one else pointed that out.

Quote from: makeinu on December 22, 2013, 04:36:42 am

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makeinu: Why did you target Superblackcat? Why did you add the 'Town' to your 'Detective'?

Second. What's the point of this question? Because I'm THE fucking Town Detective, that's why!

Because that seems like a slipup. Why did you need to claim town in a roleclaim? Because you knew there were Dopp Detectives?

Quote from: makeinu on December 22, 2013, 04:36:42 am

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Everyone: I've listed everyone and see makeinu left in between. What made him innocent via that process of elimination y'all love hugging? That he spotted a Hive Mind?

Left "in between" what and what?

Ah, I see, let's deflect suspicion at makeinu, because SQUIRREL!!

Tiruin's reasoning makes sense though. Toonyman and me seem Town from behavior yesterday. Toaster seems Town from his inspect clearing me, the top lynch pick last night. Jim and Caz both seem town, and Jim's goal is to win and can easily change sides if he wanted to, and he didn't want to. Right now town are up so it's reasonable that Jim would stay town if he was town, which he seems to be doing. Finally, there's Tiruin. I feel that Scum Tiruin would have scumhunted her buddies more, because that's exactly what she did in the past two games I've played with her, and given the fact that I was her scumbuddy in one such game, I'm getting a scum vibe from Tiruin. Tiruin's shock at realizing Imp was scum is understandable. Imp wasn't very scummy D1, and she's also a friend of Tiruin, so I'm not surprised that Tiruin was buddying with Imp slightly.

Quote from: makeinu on December 22, 2013, 04:36:42 am

So, neat, everyone's clear in your book except the two we know are Dopps, and....

Me, I guess. I suppose that helps explain this part.

what?

Quote from: makeinu on December 22, 2013, 04:36:42 am

Quote from: Tiruin on December 22, 2013, 01:10:17 am

Quote from: makeinu on December 22, 2013, 01:00:49 am

Quote from: Tiruin on December 22, 2013, 12:23:19 am

Next, I would be a darn bad scum player given that notion of defending Imp as despite my rule towards here back there, I'd at least give her a null eye to distance myself as well as give me space to attack her. Does anyone think I'd be defending Imp like that if I was scum? Anyone? Nobody has mentioned this but all I see from everyone are labels and mudslinging.

WIFOM.

"Tiruin wouldn't keep defending Imp after she flipped dopp, because that would be bad scum play, therefore she must be Town, unless she wanted us to think that, in which case she's scum, but....."

NOT WIFOM.
Check the logic. While it appears as WIFOM at first glance, use your common sense! Actually, that's me saying 'What do you REALLY think about that?'

I mean, you don't even know this person. See what I mean by brevity and poking at people? I'm getting one-liners, and they're not even detailed!

Oh holy fuck, how is that not WIFOM? You clearly want us to question why you would do something so ... bad scum play ... as defending Imp so that we'll be lead to think exactly that, that you can't possibly be scum, because that would just be stupid to still be defending a known scum, so clearly you must be Town, or stupid, or scum playing badly, or....

But you're not stupid.

WIFOM at first glance is still WIFOM, no matter how much time is spent analyzing it. As soon as it leads into that circular "but if..." reasoning, it's WIFOM. And that did, right from word one.

I have to side with Tiruin on this. What Tiruin said isn't WIFOM because it's true. Tiruin is a good scum player who has managed to appear town and win the past two games I've played with her. I doubt she'd be playing this badly (for a scum player) if she was actually scum.

Quote from: Caz on December 22, 2013, 08:41:49 am

Roll on day 4.

I concur.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 3 brings death and release
Post by: Tiruin on December 22, 2013, 02:10:41 pm

makeinu Please no big pictures. Big pictures kill my tiny net and increase load times by 100% >_<
That, and I can't see it.

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Tiruin, your arguments are not convincing me at all.

Well why don't you poke back at them like you labeled me as a 'defensive forgetful etc.' Which I see you're not detailing there.

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Come tonight, when I scope out Persus for a role read? I'll know his role claim is accurate, and he's actually what he claims to be. Which will thoroughly clear him. And if I die tonight? Fine, you'll know whom to blame for it.

...I blame the killer. However I've to note that Toaster accurate'd Persus as a human. Now unless Toaster is scum (actually the clear-list lacks Toaster but I put him there because of how I viewed him. He's squeaky clean more than squeaky dirty), then..this path of action isn't that practical.

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Ooooooor, I could take a read on you, and check your role claim. Would you prefer that? Given that it's Superblackcat who'll be given the ticket home today, not you? That would not, of course, prove you're Town, because you could be a Dopp Heroic Guard, but at least we'd know for sure that you're a Heroic Guard, and not something else entirely.

Don't bother wasting it because I AM- wait for it-

Quote from: makeinu on December 22, 2013, 04:36:42 am

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makeinu: Why did you target Superblackcat? Why did you add the 'Town' to your 'Detective'?

First, because Max White felt off to me before he replaced out, and Superblackcat continued to feel off to me after he replaced in. Funny how that works...

Second. What's the point of this question? Because I'm THE fucking Town Detective, that's why!

I AM ALSO THE FRICKIN' TOWN HEROIC GUARD!
But I don't have the audacity, subconsciously or not, to make it 'Town' because I'm more than happy to prove it by the test of fire. There's also THE fucking dopp Detective (which would be real squicky but :v), but who would do that, eh?

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Oh, and apparently I can't find someone hiding their role behind an anti-tech field. I should've logicked that one out before, silly me. Good thing I didn't have to target TheDarkStar for investigation. I'd've been double screwed.

I'm unsure if this is sarcasm or not, but Superblackcat is a Hivemind..with an advanced holoform thingy. That's how you got no role. Which, for posterity, is all Max' fault. :P

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Vanilla Town and all Dopps without an actual role (like, say, a Dopp anyfreakin'role but just Dopp) all show a visible "No role". Which means I can't find the Dopps directly. Toaster can, because he can see their Race, and there's no role that has the "Visible race" attribute. So, yeah, the last Dopp hid N2, laid low, most likely because there was no way to manage a kill without being outed.

"Say, it's really odd that the guy so-and-so was covering got night killed by the Dopp! What's up with that, so-and-so?"

Covering who now? Cado was the one who died. You didn't target Cado...The only one who did is ToonyMan. You targeted the luckyblackkittycat.

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Left "in between" what and what?

Ah, I see, let's deflect suspicion at makeinu, because SQUIRREL!!

^{I've seen UP enough to say that your context isn't that context! D:<}
That you're uncleared unlike the rest. This field includes me and you, and probably Toaster if he just gambled a 'Human' role outta Persus for nothing, but I duly suspect that the last dopp has a human-role and isn't a straightforward dopp-role given the stuffs that happened yesterday. Or they No-killed, and then made up an action to cover it, which would be pretty hilarious but still possible (but really improbable).

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So, neat, everyone's clear in your book except the two we know are Dopps, and....

Eh? I judged those things out of the recent events. TDS is dead D1 so he's utterly out of the equation of 'who acted when and why', Imp dies D2--it can be judged that she was the one ready to act for the kill given her lack of other-role (she's a toughie and nothing else). N2 plays out as a no-kill observation, and thus you have that situation.

How did you discount my words with the logic behind the bolded part? I don't see it. Could'ya magnify it for me?

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Oh holy fuck, how is that not WIFOM? You clearly want us to question why you would do something so ... bad scum play ... as defending Imp so that we'll be lead to think exactly that, that you can't possibly be scum, because that would just be stupid to still be defending a known scum, so clearly you must be Town, or stupid, or scum playing badly, or....

Nay, I don't say that 'THIS PROVES ME TOWN BECAUSE I DID X, WHY SHOULD I DO X WHEN X IS BAD OBVIOUSLY?!'. I ask for your opinions--judging it as WIFOM seems more like a defensive measure than not as it throws out an implied meaning instead of giving a true-man's word to the story--their opinion.

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WIFOM at first glance is still WIFOM, no matter how much time is spent analyzing it. As soon as it leads into that circular "but if..." reasoning, it's WIFOM. And that did, right from word one.

So too can a jaded person begin labeling all those he doesn't want to hear or that his ears are not aligned towards. You can say stuff are WIFOM, but they still exist, and without giving those things the full measure of thought, then it'll stay in the grey zone as unused evidence.

I remember Sherlock Holmes' quotes. To ignore any sort of path gives way to a dead end. I wanted to see how you saw it. I bold that statement that kills the analysis because it keeps the mindset on one certain track which refuses to diverge from its path of thought.

I mean, I'm playing the whole thing straight by doing your summarizing for you. Remember that time you call be a list of accusations without bringing up backing to shut the case in? I'm bringing in my own damnation right there, and I get a wayward sign slapped on my face. Of all things present, that's the thing that marks me scummy more than anything, and you don't poke it right.

---

Caz

Quote from: Caz on December 22, 2013, 08:41:49 am

Superblackcat[/color]

Roll on day 4.

If I were at such extremes with being proven innocent or guilty, I'd rather speak more than just coast along with the time and VOTE VOTE LYNCH KILL.
>_>
Roll on, talk less, leave the day. If you're scum in this game..I don't know what I'll think.

---

---

---

---

---

PPE
@Persus:

Quote

I'd like to point out that I'm voting SBC because he has know lied not once, but twice. He claimed to be an ordinary towny from Makeinu's inspect, something you yourself pointed out was false. Then he claimed to have converted RangerCado last night, something that couldn't have happened given the fact that it would have been revealed when he role flipped. Wait a second, did SBC convert you last night? Is that why you're defending him so much?

Many things wrong with the bolded part (its line of thought)
> Why am I putting out all this info about SBC if I was converted. "O hey Master, I'll just tell these dudes that you have two shields, m'kay?"
> SBC, if known to the general populace, is imperative to lynch (or..not to lynch, given that we can all just lob our votes on the Hivemind tomorrow and all he can do is convert [HOWEVER he can also choose to convert a power role essential to this case...]). If a Hivemind dies, those who are converted dies. Meaning, if I was converted, I'd die--this does not explain me being 'defending' of him.

I'm being 'defending' (if by that you mean being cautious or ponderous) because I'm giving him the benefit of the newbie--I don't like seeing people panic; less so if I smell genuine 'what do I do' panic. I mean, consider it from my PoV. I've a person here who tells me he has two shields--I ponder on what that is, so I tell it to the public for mass speculation. Flip-flop, out comes information. He then forwards his defense by stating more info that continues the line of thinking..however, said info also focuses down that list of suspect-roles which he may be. Yea, I was 'defending' him earlier (until I could narrow down that role), because of the pretense that SBC may be a benevolent alien..despite his choice of words (I've got personal experience with these types being that I..acted the same during my newness in games) so you could say I erred on the side of caution.

Quote

My opinions on players back then.
Toony seems town with a useful role. Protecting him is important.
Makeinu has claimed Detective. Useful role. If not scum he needs protecting.
Toaster-unknown
Tiruin-claimed Heroic Guard, not voting scum like normal, so town?
Jim-Mind Stealer, scum if Caz is.
Imp-Imp is actually scum? She was one of my suspects.
RangerCado-no clue

@bolded: Eh? 'Voting scum like normal'?
I was absent most of D1 because RL stuffs D:< You tell me if you'd like to either help a good HighSchool friend with her theses on [..this is too personal >_>] and make it perfect because this thing uses personal information other than play Paranormal--while I really really really love to do both, I had to make sure that people stay updated with my current status..sure, I posted in other threads, but those posts were to keep those games going on (as I'm usually on the RtD board due to the narrative and literary prospects it offers).
Now on D2..well. I firstly blame timezones, but that isn't the case why I couldn't talk before that ton of vote-switchiness happened..that was due to me having an exam at the time and priorities.
...Now for 'voting scum like normal', you tell me where I should place my vote. On the destined lynch, or on someone else to emphasize my suspicion on them?

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As for my doubts about Jim being scum, I always get last minute doubts about whether or not someone's scum, I just rarely reveal them. In Supernatural I was even doubting whether or not Max was scum right before the lynch.

..It's partly obvious by what you're not saying, truth be told. I tagged a minor note on you as 'If Persus lacks a word count of <15, and only contains a vote with a short sentence, then he's unsure.', with a comedic way of writing it as seen right here. :P

But yeah I get it. Just checking there.

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Mainly the fact that he was involved in both scum lynches.

...This doesn't say much. I mean what inside that part makes him town? The same could be said to those who have the same votes in the same day on the lurkertracker (ZU's tracker is sooo updated I love it) which i can't recall now because its 3am! Woo~

Also...You have a messed up quote tag that should be addressed to makeinu, not me. The quote starting with "As Jim noted, I played at last-minute "vote gaming"[...]"
Yeah. It links to my post.
How did you even mess that up?! [This is hypothetical and tells you to be more cautious.]

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[...]It was only because I pointed out to Meph he had Jim voting twice that we ended up with an Imp lynch at all. I wonder why no one else pointed that out.

*checks back*
Huh. I didn't notice it.
From here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=133676.msg4845045#msg4845045), I see nothing from Meph to here, (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=133676.msg4846330#msg4846330) which is Meph's next post.
...*points at bolded part*
Whaa?

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I have to side with Tiruin on this. What Tiruin said isn't WIFOM because it's true. Tiruin is a good scum player who has managed to appear town and win the past two games I've played with her. I doubt she'd be playing this badly (for a scum player) if she was actually scum.

>_>
While this was the idea I was under, I was asking for an opinion..

Fakeedit: Ah, just saw it. Erk.
Wait, I can play that badly as scum! I'm forgetful at times too, y'know. :I

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 3 brings death and release
Post by: Caz on December 22, 2013, 02:27:33 pm

Quote from: Tiruin on December 22, 2013, 02:10:41 pm

If I were at such extremes with being proven innocent or guilty, I'd rather speak more than just coast along with the time and VOTE VOTE LYNCH KILL.
>_>
Roll on, talk less, leave the day. If you're scum in this game..I don't know what I'll think.

Meh, I'm kinda busy today and it's obvious nothing will get solved until something new happens. SBC is the agreed threat here, doubly so for lying (twice). Who the last scum is can be decided tomorrow, which will be an easier task than today as we'll have the dopp-kill to go on and a couple more cop results.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 3 brings death and release
Post by: Tiruin on December 22, 2013, 02:29:46 pm

I didn't mean it in that -bad- a way! D:
..You could've said you were busy..

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Who the last scum is can be decided tomorrow, which will be an easier task than today as we'll have the dopp-kill to go on and a couple more cop results.

...Interesting.
Checking all plans.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 3 brings death and release
Post by: Caz on December 22, 2013, 03:04:59 pm

Quote from: Tiruin on December 22, 2013, 02:29:46 pm

I didn't mean it in that -bad- a way! D:
..You could've said you were busy..

Well, you did spent the last couple pages ranting at me, so.. :D

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 3 brings death and release
Post by: Persus13 on December 22, 2013, 03:33:02 pm

Quote from: Tiruin on December 22, 2013, 02:10:41 pm

@Persus:

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I'd like to point out that I'm voting SBC because he has know lied not once, but twice. He claimed to be an ordinary towny from Makeinu's inspect, something you yourself pointed out was false. Then he claimed to have converted RangerCado last night, something that couldn't have happened given the fact that it would have been revealed when he role flipped. Wait a second, did SBC convert you last night? Is that why you're defending him so much?

Many things wrong with the bolded part (its line of thought)

Stream of consciousness posting that may explain your line of thought. I was thinking along the lines of you defending to prevent your death, though, but you do have valid counterarguments. It's just your defense of SBC who has lied about his conversions and hoped no one would notice.

Quote from: Tiruin on December 22, 2013, 02:10:41 pm

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My opinions on players back then.
Toony seems town with a useful role. Protecting him is important.
Makeinu has claimed Detective. Useful role. If not scum he needs protecting.
Toaster-unknown
Tiruin-claimed Heroic Guard, not voting scum like normal, so town?
Jim-Mind Stealer, scum if Caz is.
Imp-Imp is actually scum? She was one of my suspects.
RangerCado-no clue

@bolded: Eh? 'Voting scum like normal'?
...Now for 'voting scum like normal', you tell me where I should place my vote. On the destined lynch, or on someone else to emphasize my suspicion on them?

I was more referring to the fact that, as scum, you are likely to vote your partners, and have bussed scum partners before. YOu aren't doing that this game.

Quote from: Tiruin on December 22, 2013, 02:10:41 pm

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Mainly the fact that he was involved in both scum lynches.

...This doesn't say much. I mean what inside that part makes him town? The same could be said to those who have the same votes in the same day on the lurkertracker (ZU's tracker is sooo updated I love it) which i can't recall now because its 3am! Woo~

Makeinu was the deciding vote behind Imp's lynch and helped get DarkStar lynched. That doesn't necessarily mean he's town.

Quote from: Tiruin on December 22, 2013, 02:10:41 pm

Also...You have a messed up quote tag that should be addressed to makeinu, not me. The quote starting with "As Jim noted, I played at last-minute "vote gaming"[...]"
Yeah. It links to my post.
How did you even mess that up?! [This is hypothetical and tells you to be more cautious.]

Copy/Pasting the top quote part is something I do, as opposed to just using a generic quote with no link.

Quote from: Tiruin on December 22, 2013, 02:10:41 pm

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[...]It was only because I pointed out to Meph he had Jim voting twice that we ended up with an Imp lynch at all. I wonder why no one else pointed that out.

*checks back*
Huh. I didn't notice it.
From here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=133676.msg4845045#msg4845045), I see nothing from Meph to here, (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=133676.msg4846330#msg4846330) which is Meph's next post.
...*points at bolded part*
Whaa?

Meph mislisted Jim as voting both me and Imp when D2 ended, which resulted in NL. I told Meph about it and he reedited the day end post and fixed the problem, with Imp being lynched as a result of the error being fixed. If you notice, the votecount still lists SBC as voting both Makeinu and Toaster.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 3 brings death and release
Post by: Mephansteras on December 22, 2013, 04:05:33 pm

The Whiteboard
makeinu: Persus13, Tiruin
Superblackcat: Caz, Jim Groovester, makeinu, ToonyMan, Toaster

---

Day ends ~5pm Pacific Monday

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 3 brings death and release
Post by: makeinu on December 22, 2013, 06:22:08 pm

Quote from: Tiruin on December 22, 2013, 02:10:41 pm

makeinu Please no big pictures. Big pictures kill my tiny net and increase load times by 100% >_<
That, and I can't see it.

My apologies.

Meph: permission requested to edit the picture link out?

Quote from: Persus13 on December 22, 2013, 12:22:36 pm

Quote from: Tiruin on December 22, 2013, 02:42:24 am

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Everyone: I've listed everyone and see makeinu left in between. What made him innocent via that process of elimination y'all love hugging? That he spotted a Hive Mind?

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Mainly the fact that he was involved in both scum lynches.

...This doesn't say much. I mean what inside that part makes him town? The same could be said to those who have the same votes in the same day on the lurkertracker (ZU's tracker is sooo updated I love it) which i can't recall now because its 3am! Woo~

Makeinu was the deciding vote behind Imp's lynch and helped get DarkStar lynched. That doesn't necessarily mean he's town.

At the danger of ... something ... I'll point out again that TheDarkStar was wearing a "Dopp's rool Hoomans drool" t-shirt and standing under a giant "SCUM HERE" neon sign, so I can't actually take credit for that.

Imp, however... Apparently I was the only one who saw Imp as scum, despite my making a logical case for why that pretty much had to be.

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You weren't playing well, you were very lucky. It was only because I pointed out to Meph he had Jim voting twice that we ended up with an Imp lynch at all. I wonder why no one else pointed that out.

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Tiruin's reasoning makes sense though. Toonyman and me seem Town from behavior yesterday. Toaster seems Town from his inspect clearing me, the top lynch pick last night. Jim and Caz both seem town, and Jim's goal is to win and can easily change sides if he wanted to, and he didn't want to. Right now town are up so it's reasonable that Jim would stay town if he was town, which he seems to be doing. Finally, there's Tiruin. I feel that Scum Tiruin would have scumhunted her buddies more, because that's exactly what she did in the past two games I've played with her, and given the fact that I was her scumbuddy in one such game, I'm getting a scum vibe from Tiruin. Tiruin's shock at realizing Imp was scum is understandable. Imp wasn't very scummy D1, and she's also a friend of Tiruin, so I'm not surprised that Tiruin was buddying with Imp slightly.

It doesn't make sense to me.

True, Imp didn't seem very scummy D1. She had a mostly null read to me, but that tended to scummy D2, and by the end I was convinced. Mostly I was convinced by the logical deduction that Imp was blocked (confirmed in deed and flavor) and no dopp kill happened, on top of the scum read I already had on her, which was little more than hunch.

As for the rest, I still see Tiruin as reacting very defensively. Somewhat understandable, human nature when under assault and all that, and she is, but she continues to defend Imp even still. Or, at the very least, continually reiterates her surprise that Imp was scum.

That's really not necessary. She was surprised, we all get that. I was, admittedly, nervous myself when Meph's original day end report came up, I told Tiruin that, because I had to wonder if I was wrong and had just made a huge mistake. And that gave me a moment's hesitation before I began going over the votes and the voteboard. And I literally whooped when Meph made his correction as I was noticing what you had noticed and reported to Meph. By the time I was ready to send that PM, it was already corrected.

So, congratulations, you were the fastest on the draw to perform a vote recount. Doesn't mean that no one else did.

Quote

However I've to note that Toaster accurate'd Persus as a human. Now unless Toaster is scum (actually the clear-list lacks Toaster but I put him there because of how I viewed him. He's squeaky clean more than squeaky dirty), then..this path of action isn't that practical.

The problem being, as Toaster himself has noted, that there are roles out there that can fool the Agent. One in particular, can fool both Agent and Detective:

Quote from: Mephansteras on November 26, 2013, 12:05:45 pm

Doppelganger leader
    Visible Role: No Role
    Visible Race: Human
    Rules: More powerful and adept then the others, the leader is immune to detection by Agent or Detective short of death.

Suspicion being that Persus may have this role, the Agent finds only "human", the Detective finds "no role", and no one learns anything. Except that we have Persus' role claim to go against.

So, how is that not practical again?

I know you don't like the process of elimination argument, but it's very practical. Eliminating suspects via logic is better than blind voting.

Quote

Quote

Oh, and apparently I can't find someone hiding their role behind an anti-tech field. I should've logicked that one out before, silly me. Good thing I didn't have to target TheDarkStar for investigation. I'd've been double screwed.

I'm unsure if this is sarcasm or not, but Superblackcat is a Hivemind..with an advanced holoform thingy. That's how you got no role.

I apologize, I guess in refuting your other points, I must have missed that confession from Superblackcat. Oh, wait, he didn't confess it, you did on his behalf. Whatever the case, fine, I missed that in the walls of text.

Quote

Quote

Vanilla Town and all Dopps without an actual role (like, say, a Dopp anyfreakin'role but just Dopp) all show a visible "No role". Which means I can't find the Dopps directly. Toaster can, because he can see their Race, and there's no role that has the "Visible race" attribute. So, yeah, the last Dopp hid N2, laid low, most likely because there was no way to manage a kill without being outed.

"Say, it's really odd that the guy so-and-so was covering got night killed by the Dopp! What's up with that, so-and-so?"

Covering who now? Cado was the one who died. You didn't target Cado...The only one who did is ToonyMan. You targeted the luckyblackkittycat.

My point, since I didn't make it clear enough was that if, hypothetically speaking here, you were guarding me by public admission and I died, and you saw nothing, then the only logical conclusion to be drawn is that you were involved in my death. Either you did not do as you claimed you were going to, or you killed me.

My proposition wasn't directed at any particular scenario from last night.

Quote

Quote

Oh holy fuck, how is that not WIFOM? You clearly want us to question why you would do something so ... bad scum play ... as defending Imp so that we'll be lead to think exactly that, that you can't possibly be scum, because that would just be stupid to still be defending a known scum, so clearly you must be Town, or stupid, or scum playing badly, or....

Nay, I don't say that 'THIS PROVES ME TOWN BECAUSE I DID X, WHY SHOULD I DO X WHEN X IS BAD OBVIOUSLY?!'. I ask for your opinions--judging it as WIFOM seems more like a defensive measure than not as it throws out an implied meaning instead of giving a true-man's word to the story--their opinion.

My opinion is that even mentioning it is WIFOM.

Quote

I mean, I'm playing the whole thing straight by doing your summarizing for you. Remember that time you call be a list of accusations without bringing up backing to shut the case in? I'm bringing in my own damnation right there, and I get a wayward sign slapped on my face. Of all things present, that's the thing that marks me scummy more than anything, and you don't poke it right.

I'm ... not even sure what you're trying to say here.

Quote

Quote

I have to side with Tiruin on this. What Tiruin said isn't WIFOM because it's true. Tiruin is a good scum player who has managed to appear town and win the past two games I've played with her. I doubt she'd be playing this badly (for a scum player) if she was actually scum.

>_>
While this was the idea I was under, I was asking for an opinion..

Fakeedit: Ah, just saw it. Erk.
Wait, I can play that badly as scum! I'm forgetful at times too, y'know. :I

Everyone has good and bad days, and good and bad games. Good scum play one game does not predicate good scum play another, and the same goes for town play.

---

Hey, Tiruin, a question...

Quote from: Toaster on December 21, 2013, 09:46:28 pm

Quote from: Tiruin on December 21, 2013, 04:29:11 pm

If I live, I'll be blocking either makeinu or Toony

Didn't you claim Guard?

Quote from: Tiruin on December 21, 2013, 02:02:43 pm

Because from this list:

Quote

    Tiruin - Claimed Heroic Guard (I'm actually a Guardian. :P)

Quote

Quote

If you really are a heroic guard. I reccommend you protect Makeinu. Dead man walking out.

And I just remembered (woo, memory, nice way to convict me >__>). The base reason why I claimed is because I took it from a scum perspective of view--they would see me claiming as a heroic guard and then wonder why one would even do such a thing--sure, while its a Protect role, it also means its a martyr role, so in essence they'd chance upon something else in their thoughts and plans--enabling me to launch this thing against anyone I deemed worthy. Stuff is hazy, that's my general idea and why I said WIFOM scum at the time.
It didn't work as I'm still alive (Not a Guardian).

Why do you keep changing your mind?

---

You know, the funny thing is, I'm half-convinced I'm wrong and chasing the wrong lead and Tiruin isn't scum and the last dopp is just laughing his ass off at all this...

And I know there are some other points I was going to comment on, refute, whatever, but commenting across five or six related walls of text and chasing down references from earlier in thread has gotten me all kerfuffled...

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 3 brings death and release
Post by: Jim Groovester on December 22, 2013, 06:51:10 pm

Quote from: Persus13 on December 22, 2013, 12:22:36 pm

I voted him because he seemed to be acting differently D2 than D1 along with the fact that I had been informed by Makeinu that Jim was the Mind Stealer.

So the fucking rat did fucking rat. Did he give you any reasons for why he revealed this to you?

Quote from: Persus13 on December 22, 2013, 12:22:36 pm

Toaster seems Town from his inspect clearing me, the top lynch pick last night.

Quote from: Tiruin on December 22, 2013, 02:10:41 pm

However I've to note that Toaster accurate'd Persus as a human. Now unless Toaster is scum (actually the clear-list lacks Toaster but I put him there because of how I viewed him. He's squeaky clean more than squeaky dirty), then..this path of action isn't that practical.

This doesn't clear him at all. If he were a dopp he could just say that and probably be right.

Why are people saying this clears Toaster?

Quote from: Persus13 on December 22, 2013, 12:22:36 pm

This is making me wonder: What are your thoughts on who is scum? What is your opinion of Tiruin and Makeinu right now?

There are people I don't consider scum for various reasons. Myself and Caz, obviously, ToonyMan, and yourself. Everybody else is a suspect.

Superblackcat is a liar and needs to be lynched as soon as possible, so it's important to not lose sight of this as we debate over who the last dopp could be.

As for the remaining people, I have no strong inclination to rate any of them higher on a suspect list than anybody else.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 3 brings death and release
Post by: Mephansteras on December 22, 2013, 06:58:19 pm

Quote from: makeinu on December 22, 2013, 06:22:08 pm

Quote from: Tiruin on December 22, 2013, 02:10:41 pm

makeinu Please no big pictures. Big pictures kill my tiny net and increase load times by 100% >_<
That, and I can't see it.

My apologies.

Meph: permission requested to edit the picture link out?

I did it for you.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 3 brings death and release
Post by: makeinu on December 22, 2013, 08:44:25 pm

Quote from: Mephansteras on December 22, 2013, 06:58:19 pm

I did it for you.

Thanks. Bandwidth Privilege error.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 3 brings death and release
Post by: Tiruin on December 22, 2013, 11:47:30 pm

Quote from: makeinu on December 22, 2013, 06:22:08 pm

[...]
It doesn't make sense to me.

True, Imp didn't seem very scummy D1. She had a mostly null read to me, but that tended to scummy D2, and by the end I was convinced. Mostly I was convinced by the logical deduction that Imp was blocked (confirmed in deed and flavor) and no dopp kill happened, on top of the scum read I already had on her, which was little more than hunch.

As for the rest, I still see Tiruin as reacting very defensively. Somewhat understandable, human nature when under assault and all that, and she is, but she continues to defend Imp even still. Or, at the very least, continually reiterates her surprise that Imp was scum.

That's also why I singled out that one statement of mine. This pertains to:

Quote

Quote

    I mean, I'm playing the whole thing straight by doing your summarizing for you. Remember that time you call be a list of accusations without bringing up backing to shut the case in? I'm bringing in my own damnation right there, and I get a wayward sign slapped on my face. Of all things present, that's the thing that marks me scummy more than anything, and you don't poke it right.

I'm ... not even sure what you're trying to say here.

Because I'm doing your darn work for you by naming what I see your accusation of 'defensiveness' or whatever points towards! I show that relevant section then throw it off for discussion. What I get is being discarded and then labeled yet again. Where do I keep on defending Imp? If I did so, then does the context of where I did not matter? Can you quote it out?

What I don't see is continuity on what you accuse me of.

Quote

The problem being, as Toaster himself has noted, that there are roles out there that can fool the Agent. One in particular, can fool both Agent and Detective:

Ah, yes, but this takes in the probability that Persus didn't act, instead. Why shouldn't he act? I sincerely doubt that he's the leader given our correspondence yesterday? You want me to quote it all? I'll do it in chronological order. All this deters me thinking he's the leader (and if he was the leader, he should've really killed, because no investigative role can catch him. Toony didn't block him, ergo he either didn't act, or is the darn leader.)
*checks back*
..Ok, that thing about the leader was only in my notes >_< Blargh for me not noticing it. Anyway, that's up here now.

Quote

So, how is that not practical again?

I've to admit, its more on what we said during the night and then me reflecting back on his posts that convince me otherwise, despite this strange feeling here.
...Doubt me or not here, I was being pretty..emotional.

Spoiler: Tiruin > Persus letters. (click to show/hide)

Quote from: Persus13; Dec 18-ish

If you really are a heroic guard. I reccommend you protect Makeinu. Dead man walking out.

Quote from: Tiruin

How can I trust you and/or you being non-mafia, buddy?

makeinu also seems scummy. How do you see him dead there?

Quote from: Tiruin

Oh bloody hell wait what

Just caught up with the thread.

...
wat

...Erh. I'd rather protect Jim.

Quote from: Persus13

Okay. I'm going to protect Toony then.

Quote from: Tiruin

Quote from: Persus13

Okay. I'm going to protect Toony then.

Duuuude, click the 'Reply to All' button because you just replied to me only and not Meph there. You silly scallywag!

..Who you.

Silly Persus. :I

Quote from: Tiruin

Anywhoos, to clarify--I voted you due to your sporadic voting pattern and stuff like that, pretty unsure why you're so jumpy but I can't sense a scum read on intuition so..meh, I trust you for now.

Next, protecting Jim because he's darn well the obvious non-scum via vote pattern on Imp's case and beyond. The essence of her posts relate to who or why the target is in suspect.

So elimination process.

...This explains me answering him here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=133676.msg4846086#msg4846086) and..why he didn't question on me about it now. Sorry for not saying earlier.

Quote from: Persus13

Quote from: Tiruin

Quote from: Persus13

Okay. I'm going to protect Toony then.

Duuuude, click the 'Reply to All' button because you just replied to me only and not Meph there. You silly scallywag!

..Who you.

Shoot, I keep doing that like an idiot.

..Yeah, this did imply that he was talking to someone else. Back then, I really thought it was you, makeinu. Which..I guess it still is.

Quote from: Tiruin

:I

*checks thread*

OOooooooooohhhhh. You're the guard!

Quote

Third, unnamed, Observant Guard claim, Town presumed but not claimed, guarded the Mind Stealer. No kill attempt.

Ahah.
..hah. Right.
I've a list of correspondences here on who may be scum or not (yay notation) so..care to trade notes? May I know who the MS is?

Quote from: Persus13

Night PMs to other players are allowed, right Meph?

Meph said yes.

Quote from: Tiruin

Quote

Tiruin-Has a tendency to vote scum when scum. She's voting me right now, so town? But she also has failed to explain why she thinks I'm scum and why she isn't paying attention to me at all.

Woah, hey, wait. I explained why I was voting you before!
...
Ok, it was subtle but it was there D:<
Anyway, context above, I was really doubtful of your moves back there--switching votes left and right, and othe rthan my usual note on you on 'Persus likes to vote people as a presser for info then shift his vote later', you switch..near the day end.

Also that quote there? Neutral tip: I'm amorphous and can shift whenever, to whatever, depending on the situation. To outthink me, you must out-think my surroundings first. Don't hold that as a label to know my playstyle. :3

Quote

Last Night I protected Jim. He's the Mind Stealer.

...What's your idea on the whole game btw? We have...a ton of protecting//Tough type roles.

..Oh crap, strange thought..um. Exterminator with Combat Camouflage?

*re-reads thread*
Craaaa-..
That's a lot of vote shifts. What did you do with makeinu there?!
..Dear gods that was one quick succession. Imp shoots you off as town. Woo.
[Stuff on PMs at night @Meph]

Quote from: Persus13

The Mind Stealer is Jim. I believe i said this in my "goodbye" post.

I protected him N1 becuase I figured that scum would kill an experienced player first.

My top suspect right now is SBC, because I found reasons for voting me were bad meta and Jim's reasons. Also, Max being scummy D1 was another factor. However Makeinu, you, and Toaster are all on my shortlist of suspects as well.

Toonyman being scum I just can't see given his roleclaim.

Jim and Caz being scum is something I still think possible, but not likely.

Quote from: Persus13

Quote from: Tiruin

Quote

Tiruin-Has a tendency to vote scum when scum. She's voting me right now, so town? But she also has failed to explain why she thinks I'm scum and why she isn't paying attention to me at all.

Woah, hey, wait. I explained why I was voting you before!

I was talking more about you more recently. You kept your vote on me without saying "Persus is scum, lynch him" like Toaster and Jim.

Quote from: Tiruin

...What's your idea on the whole game btw? We have...a ton of protecting//Tough type roles.

Well, so far there's only been one known kill source.

Quote from: Tiruin

..Oh crap, strange thought..um. Exterminator with Combat Camouflage?

Huh?

Quote from: Tiruin

*re-reads thread*
Craaaa-..
That's a lot of vote shifts. What did you do with makeinu there?!
..Dear gods that was one quick succession. Imp shoots you off as town. Woo.

Makeinu wanted to save me for some reason. I just wanted someone to die, no matter whether it was me, Jim, or Imp. I'm glad now it was a dopp. Makeinu wanted me and Jim alive. Imp wanted me alive for some reason (sow doubt?), and Jim seemed to want no shenanigans.

Of course now everyone's going to be gunning for me tomorrow. I was right about Imp's playstyle being off though.

Quote from: Tiruin

So I discovered the utility of the Maximum 20-PM-per-hour system this forum uses.

[Non-Mafia Related]

---

---

Quote

I was talking more about you more recently. You kept your vote on me without saying "Persus is scum, lynch him" like Toaster and Jim.

My methods regardless of alignment are not as blatant as them. I go by the scientific method of empirical and analytical evidence, sir.
If you want transparency, then just ask >_> I mean, people should read.

Quote

Well, so far there's only been one known kill source.

..Bleh. My paranoia.
Still..we've a Mind Stealer.
...Why are you so trusty of makeinu or JIm?

Quote

Huh?

Well it is plausible. I don't know how the Mind Stealer works.
Meph: Can an exterminator's Combat Camouflage mimic any kind of kill-flavor?

Quote

Makeinu wanted to save me for some reason. I just wanted someone to die, no matter whether it was me, Jim, or Imp. I'm glad now it was a dopp. Makeinu wanted me and Jim alive. Imp wanted me alive for some reason (sow doubt?), and Jim seemed to want no shenanigans.

Of course now everyone's going to be gunning for me tomorrow. I was right about Imp's playstyle being off though.

1 dopp left and I doubt its you..now.

...

..
...I believe the last dopp is SBC. You guard Toony, I'll do either makeinu or Jim.
Nah, I'll make it makeinu instead.

Basic meaning: I trust him with my darn life.
PS: He told you that he was an Observant Guard firsthand--you don't seem to doubt that (other than point the possible role)

....Wait, strange idea just hit me. I'm asking myself -why- did we roleclaim today? Yes, the notion follows that 'there's one dopp', and that 'Town are lotsa people' but..that question makes me wonder the order of claims and when or why.

Quote

You know, the funny thing is, I'm half-convinced I'm wrong and chasing the wrong lead and Tiruin isn't scum and the last dopp is just laughing his ass off at all this...

And I know there are some other points I was going to comment on, refute, whatever, but commenting across five or six related walls of text and chasing down references from earlier in thread has gotten me all kerfuffled...

Ah, but there is one more point you miss.

Put in the notion that I'm not the dopp. Look at it that way for the moment, now consider this: The last dopp knows I'm a Heroic Guard--and given that Persus is more clear than not (I trust him and I'll be aghast if he's scum), said Dopp has to contend with a security team of two roving people, who both are talking in secret--who'll both clear and unclear who else is out there; therefore his primary target for lynches should be the guardians and not the actors (those who have power roles--Toony, Toaster, makeinu; wherein one of you is the Dopp...My notes point towards either a Toaster/makeinu suspect).

---

---

---

Quote

My point, since I didn't make it clear enough was that if, hypothetically speaking here, you were guarding me by public admission and I died, and you saw nothing, then the only logical conclusion to be drawn is that you were involved in my death. Either you did not do as you claimed you were going to, or you killed me.

My proposition wasn't directed at any particular scenario from last night.

Pretty obvious given that it's what I'm claiming. However I either would be protecting who I said before or won't--that is left to my conversing with Persus tonight.

Quote

My opinion is that even mentioning it is WIFOM.

Well WIFOM back to you too buddy. :I

Quote

Why do you keep changing your mind?

For fun and profit. Really, I thought anyone could detect the transparency of my sarcasm there.

---

Jim

Quote from: Jim Groovester on December 22, 2013, 06:51:10 pm

Why are people saying this clears Toaster?

I should really get more organized with my notes. It doesn't clear him thoroughly, but it just gives the idea (given that I said 'note') on how the situation is.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 3 brings death and release
Post by: makeinu on December 23, 2013, 01:07:48 am

Quote from: Jim Groovester on December 22, 2013, 06:51:10 pm

So the fucking rat did fucking rat. Did he give you any reasons for why he revealed this to you?

This really chaps you hide, doesn't it. Would it bother you less to know that I told him that before I approached you, because I trusted my gut with regards to him.

Probably not.

Tiruin:

Thank you. I'm sorry for pushing so hard, but I had to be sure of you. You've been very fun to spar with.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 3 brings death and release
Post by: Tiruin on December 23, 2013, 01:09:00 am

Quote from: makeinu on December 23, 2013, 01:07:48 am

Thank you. I'm sorry for pushing so hard, but I had to be sure of you. You've been very fun to spar with.

O_o

Ok you confuse me too much now.
...
???

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 3 brings death and release
Post by: makeinu on December 23, 2013, 01:17:37 am

Quote from: Tiruin on December 23, 2013, 01:09:00 am

Quote from: makeinu on December 23, 2013, 01:07:48 am

Thank you. I'm sorry for pushing so hard, but I had to be sure of you. You've been very fun to spar with.

O_o

Ok you confuse me too much now.
...
???

Then my work here has achieved its purpose.

I have nothing on you. No Agent report. No Detective report. No Mind Stealer report. Nothing at all, except a few PMs and some anecdotal night evidence.

No matter how hard I pushed, you were consistent. That counts for a lot. I haven't seen you crack or slip.

Sorry if I pushed too hard.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 3 brings death and release
Post by: Tiruin on December 23, 2013, 01:56:56 am

._.

I have no idea if you're literally brushing it all off, or withdrawing tacitly, or being a detective and being classy.

And then that PM..

Quote from: makeinu

I can check you, Toaster, or Persus tonight. Any one of you will give me a confirm/contradict on your respective role-claims. A check on Jim or Caz won't really tell me anything, I think. Jim will still come up Mind Stealer, Caz as no role, since that whole dynamic is pretty well confirmed.

If I get no role off of any one of you, I have to take it to mean that means dopp.

Persus I trusted from the start, and his actions at the end of Day Two, the Imp-cident, at it shall be known henceforth, cemented that.

My inquisition on you clears you in my mind, along with your exchanges with Persus.

That leaves Toaster. Strong Town read, but an enigma to me.

Which..does give reason that the suspects not cleared by previous days are Toaster, you and me.

To be fair..you really do confuse me at times and somehow I didn't even get a tick from my intuition on it.

Quote from: Tiruin

I'll..I'll be posting this in thread...
>_<

Quote from: makeinu

;D :P

I don't even.

PS: You do. Your accusations of me. Where did they go?

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 3 brings death and release
Post by: makeinu on December 23, 2013, 02:24:54 am

Meh, I should've just posted then instead of a PM.

Quote from: Tiruin on December 23, 2013, 01:56:56 am

._.

I have no idea if you're literally brushing it all off, or withdrawing tacitly, or being a detective and being classy.

Withdrawing. Tactfully.

I pushed, and you didn't break. Whatever side you're on, you're staying consistent, so pushing more, as fun as it is to spar, won't get me any new information.

Superblackcat wants to play the mysterious card and not give a reason why he shouldn't be lynched via active defense. Fine, so be it, he flips his actual role, and tonight we'll learn some new things. Hopefully, that won't be when the remaining dopp finally gets in a kill.

And we'll learn new things based on the multitude of claimed powers out there.

That PM you quote is my reasoning. To me, Persus is completely trustworthy Town now, I have zero doubt, because of D2 end.

Toaster is a complete enigma to me, but he's offered up to be prey to Jim's Mind Steal.

You, also, are still an enigma to me, and you've only tangentially offered up to be cleared, even to be lynched, but "not like this". Okay.

ToonyMan gave us Imp on a day when no one but me, apparently, saw anything scummy in deed, word, or action.

Jim and Caz are linked, not inextricably, but I'm convinced on the Town side. Maybe they're both dopps playing a long game, letting us fight publicly until they can strike and be within reach of winning. If so, we have enough of a buffer to stop that in advance.

You and Persus see me as scummy. Jim sees me as a rat. Whatever. You wanted to see scum-hunting, well, there it is. Be awed, be bored, beam me up Scotty, it is as you see it. Sometimes, tunneling is necessary. It doesn't really take only three licks to reach the Tootsie Roll center of a Tootsie Pop; the world may never know because that wise old owl cheated.

And you, along with Toaster, haven't been checked except by words and claimed deeds. So, tonight, I have a choice to make. I check one or the other to verify your role claims. Either what I get matches the claim, or I call shenanigans. And if I do get a match, huzzah! Either way, we're one step closer to finding the last of the monsters in our midst.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 3 brings death and release
Post by: Tiruin on December 23, 2013, 02:42:51 am

Quote

Mind Control
    Pure Role-blockers
    Abductors
    Protectors
    Investigators
    Night Kills/Conversions (The War Vet (or equivalent) is sort of an exception, in that he'll kill anyone who targets them on THEIR turn, rather than his)

[Where did Toaster say he's ok with his mind being wiped?] Given this, what is offered would work with Toaster if he's scum though, unless Jim makes it hilarious that he betrays Toaster if Toaster's a dopp..but that'd work against his copied wincon for that time--BUT it prevents Toaster from killing (ie If Toaster is scum and Jim abducts him, there'll be no kill).

Barring Persus being a dopp lead (which I doubt), then we'll be staring at a single investigation from makeinu--he'll have to guess easy if he's scum, or put the blame on someone else (which would only best work when he's got nothing to lose)--along with two guards roaming about and a role blocker. If Toaster's being targeted by Jim, that leaves makeinu with the prospect of targeting me--either he tells the truth or not, that is to be seen, or he chooses to kill.

If Toaster's scum though, that'll leave with 2 dopps left and we'll have little notice about that other than Jim's word for the morrow. There is no way I or anyone else (but Toony) can intervene if Jim is targeting Toaster as scum (ie If I was a guard, then I can't block Jim and let him steal my mind instead).

Quote

Meh, I should've just posted then instead of a PM.

..Why did you PM me anyway?

Quote from: makeinu on December 23, 2013, 02:24:54 am

Quote from: Tiruin on December 23, 2013, 01:56:56 am

._.

I have no idea if you're literally brushing it all off, or withdrawing tacitly, or being a detective and being classy.

Withdrawing. Tactfully.

Tacitly! :I

Quote

I pushed, and you didn't break. Whatever side you're on, you're staying consistent, so pushing more, as fun as it is to spar, won't get me any new information.

But..you didn't back it up. That was obvious from my part (and yeah I did break. See my rant before? Yeah.)

Quote

And you, along with Toaster, haven't been checked except by words and claimed deeds. So, tonight, I have a choice to make. I check one or the other to verify your role claims. Either what I get matches the claim, or I call shenanigans. And if I do get a match, huzzah! Either way, we're one step closer to finding the last of the monsters in our midst.

Or you're scum and are faced with either telling the truth or killing someone else and then claiming the truth.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 3 brings death and release
Post by: Caz on December 23, 2013, 11:14:30 am

Quote from: Tiruin on December 23, 2013, 02:42:51 am

Or you're scum and are faced with either telling the truth or killing someone else and then claiming the truth.

If makeinu is scum, I will clap wholeheartedly then promptly quit mafia forever. Winning against that kind of cunning and luck... no chance for this 'mindless townie'. :P

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 3 brings death and release
Post by: Toaster on December 23, 2013, 11:37:28 am

Tiruin:  Right here- a bit before SBC refused to claim and got voted by me.

Quote from: makeinu on December 20, 2013, 09:41:12 am

Toaster, a thought occurred to me late last night. Have you been checked/cleared? I can't recall, but if I'm remembering right, the answer is no. Technically, that makes three in need, with SBC being half-cleared, sort of.

Quote from: Toaster on December 20, 2013, 09:46:04 am

Makeinu:  You're correct that I haven't.  How about if we get to tomorrow with no leads, Jim mindsteals me?

Quote from: Tiruin on December 22, 2013, 02:42:24 am

Toaster: Why did you target Persus?

Because I thought he might be scum.  My case (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=133676.msg4837587#msg4837587) on him (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=133676.msg4845567#msg4845567) felt weak, so I used my inspect to clear things up.  It came back town.

Same reason I inspected Caz N1.  You'll note my vote was on those targets at day end both times.

This should also answer Jim since he asked as well.


I'll go over the list again and why I think Tiruin is dopp.  List is "least suspect" to "most suspect."


Toaster:  Me.  I know I'm town, but that doesn't help any of you.
makeinu:  D1 DarkStar targeted him excessively and unnecessarily.  He was also the tiebreaking vote to lynch Imp.  If he's scum, he's playing masterfully.
Jim Groovester/Caz:  Right now they are the same alignment.  If Caz was Dopp, then Jim would have changed to someone else N2, ratted out Caz, and eliminated the Dopp team.  Since he didn't do so, Caz is almost certainly not dopp.
ToonyMan:  Claimed out Imp when there was no real reason to do so.  Would have to have been a bus when bussing would have been a dangerous choice.
Persus13:  I inspected him as Town.  To be scum, would need to be a Dopp Leader.  Possible, but I doubt it.

None of the people above I have any real suspicion of at all.  They're probably 10% likely to be scum combined.

Tiruin:  Since everyone else has a strong reason for me to think they aren't Dopp, is dopp by process of elimination.  Sorry!
Superblackcat:  Is dangerous claimed alien scum.  Needs to be lynched immediately.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 3 brings death and release
Post by: Mephansteras on December 23, 2013, 12:05:38 pm

The Whiteboard
makeinu: Persus13, Tiruin
Superblackcat: Caz, Jim Groovester, makeinu, ToonyMan, Toaster

---

Day ends ~5pm Pacific Today (About 8 hours)

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 3 brings death and release
Post by: Persus13 on December 23, 2013, 12:29:42 pm

You know what, Shorten. We've talked a lot today, and I think everything has been said today.

The only questions left is what's the plan for tonight, and we can figure that out after SBC roleflips. I do think Toaster needs some sort of inspection tonight.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 3 brings death and release
Post by: Tiruin on December 23, 2013, 12:33:01 pm

Quote from: Toaster on December 23, 2013, 11:37:28 am

Tiruin:  Since everyone else has a strong reason for me to think they aren't Dopp, is dopp by process of elimination.  Sorry!

I have half a mind to quit now by this weak reasoning. "PROCESS OF ELIMINATION" is backed by EVIDENCE.

Your evidence is FULLY on viewpoints! Skewed to your own perception and not to be used as a permanent marker!

Quote from: Toaster on December 23, 2013, 11:37:28 am

None of the people above I have any real suspicion of at all.  They're probably 10% likely to be scum combined.

Weak. Paltry. Foolish indeed. What if I pop out town, huh Mr. Agent? The FBI would love to have a word for their Agent, if you really did come from them, that is.

Quote from: Persus13 on December 23, 2013, 12:29:42 pm

You know what, Shorten. We've talked a lot today, and I think everything has been said today.

Like people outing me for 'process of elimination'?

Toaster isn't even trying! Posing on weak basis--I want to see evidence, and not labels!

Meph: If you EVER run another game again...ugh, just forget it. I won't speak about this.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 3 brings death and release
Post by: Tiruin on December 23, 2013, 12:35:39 pm

...Redact that.

Toaster. Why are you thinking so...shallowly?

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 3 brings death and release
Post by: Toaster on December 23, 2013, 01:06:27 pm

Okay, Tiruin.  Let's see if I can make this clear.


There are three doors.  Behind one is a pile of money.  Behind the other two are ducks.

Two doors are quacking.

Which door do you think the money is behind?

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 3 brings death and release
Post by: Tiruin on December 23, 2013, 01:18:10 pm

I'll just barrel through the darn wall. :I

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 3 brings death and release
Post by: makeinu on December 23, 2013, 01:31:41 pm

Quote from: Toaster on December 23, 2013, 01:06:27 pm

Which door do you think the money is behind?

Duh, the one that doesn't have the goat.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monty_Hall_problem (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monty_Hall_problem)

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 3 brings death and release
Post by: Toaster on December 23, 2013, 01:33:00 pm

((I went with ducks instead of goats because the original post in my head contained something like "If it walks like a duck..."))

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 3 brings death and release
Post by: makeinu on December 23, 2013, 01:37:01 pm

 ;)

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 3 brings death and release
Post by: Persus13 on December 23, 2013, 01:41:36 pm

Well what if the door to the money has a speaker playing duck noises?

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 3 brings death and release
Post by: Tiruin on December 23, 2013, 01:51:00 pm

*facepalm* Even here you guys make me laugh sometimes  :'( WHY?!

What I was pointing out there was that you seem to be missing much Toaster, by checking back you'd note what I'm saying on this 'process' o'yours that you keep on shoving.

Also why are you apologizing?

Persus: I note that the only thing you forward to me (or the only most apparent thing) is that 'Tiriuin is towny because she isn't voting scum' or something along those lines.

Could you expound on that matter?

Also I was going to smash down the wall because the ducks are crying for help! D:< The money will replace the darn wall anyway, and how would I be sure if those doors aren't boobytrapped? HOW?! I don't even have lockpick (though I could use my hairpin..its strong enough and malleable enough, sure.) to ensure that those doors won't relock themselves.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 3 brings death and release
Post by: makeinu on December 23, 2013, 02:00:49 pm

Quote from: Persus13 on December 23, 2013, 01:41:36 pm

Well what if the door to the money has a speaker playing duck noises?

That's okay, the goat will eat the speaker. Of course, it will also eat the money, so...

But that's a different problem altogether.

Quote from: Tiruin on December 23, 2013, 01:51:00 pm

*facepalm* Even here you guys make me laugh sometimes  :'( WHY?!

To cheer you up? :D

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 3 brings death and release
Post by: Toaster on December 23, 2013, 02:07:14 pm

Tiruin:  Apologizing because you were found out as dopp through no fault of your own.  Them's the breaks.

Essentially, I have eliminated every other possibility.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 3 brings death and release
Post by: Tiruin on December 23, 2013, 02:22:45 pm

I am crying tears of pain at the incredulity of this logic. I will keep silent so logic can cry alone in the corner now. Other than raise this flag of 'Screw this, I give up.' I'll just shut up now.

Hey guys. I'm scum. Hey real scum, hope you're having a good laugh there. Merry Christmas to you.

THINK PEOPLE DAMNIT

Quote from: makeinu on December 23, 2013, 02:00:49 pm

To cheer you up? :D

OH I'M HAPPY. I'LL BE HAPPY WHEN I'M DEAD.

My only hope now is to pick the right target and hope that's the same target scum gets. Thrice-damn please.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 3 brings death and release
Post by: Persus13 on December 23, 2013, 02:25:58 pm

Quote from: Tiruin on December 23, 2013, 01:51:00 pm

Persus: I note that the only thing you forward to me (or the only most apparent thing) is that 'Tiriuin is towny because she isn't voting scum' or something along those lines.

First, off, you just seem town to me. Secondly, in games I've played with you as scum, you are likely to scumhunt and vote your scum buddies. In this game, the two people who would be your scumbuddies if you were scum are two people you haven't really focused on, and who you probably would have voted at least once if you were scum. Thirdly, you're voting more than you do if you're scum, and by NQT's patented vote method, you seem town.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 3 brings death and release
Post by: Toaster on December 23, 2013, 02:28:06 pm

Tiruin:  What is wrong with scumhunting by negation?  If there were five people and you thought four of them were town, wouldn't you be going after the last one?

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 3 brings death and release
Post by: Tiruin on December 23, 2013, 02:35:11 pm

Read. BACK. I said my case about that EARLY TODAY.

Its in the walls of text. I hope that it'll explain EVERYTHING.

IF there's still time, I'll just like to incriminate myself by bringing up everything that nobody else is doing later on.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 3 brings death and release
Post by: Toaster on December 23, 2013, 03:06:44 pm

Link, quote, or bullet point?  Because you have lots of walls of text.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 3 brings death and release
Post by: Tiruin on December 23, 2013, 03:09:34 pm

Well that'll help digest the information, yes? Basically I'm tired of the labels and I'm tired of making my own summaries when it'll just be missed. Apologies for my rudeness before and now--but I've to ask you to look back in all its entirety to form your own judgement (I'm very bitter about this process of elimination by the way. While I've no defense on it other than asking you to question yourself and your judgement on how it really puts on, and how credible that process is in itself, I can only point so far that ears may listen and eyes may see.)

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 3 brings death and release
Post by: Toaster on December 23, 2013, 03:35:27 pm

And that's why I said sorry- because it comes up through nothing you've done.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 3 brings death and release
Post by: Caz on December 23, 2013, 03:40:35 pm

Tiruin also fakeclaimed... If we stack up all the chips (or ducks, piles of money, whatever we have to hand) most of them end up at Tiruin's door.  :/ It's a wide margin between that and anyone else standing out as scum, to the point that I wouldn't be able to stack people from scummy to least scummy in any meaningful way beyond Tiruin---> Everyone else ---> me, jim

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 3 brings death and release
Post by: Persus13 on December 23, 2013, 03:46:55 pm

Quote from: Caz on December 23, 2013, 03:40:35 pm

Tiruin also fakeclaimed... If we stack up all the chips (or ducks, piles of money, whatever we have to hand) most of them end up at Tiruin's door.  :/ It's a wide margin between that and anyone else standing out as scum, to the point that I wouldn't be able to stack people from scummy to least scummy in any meaningful way beyond Tiruin---> Everyone else ---> me, jim

Then why don't you stack them up?

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 3 brings death and release
Post by: Jim Groovester on December 23, 2013, 04:21:19 pm

Quote from: Toaster on December 23, 2013, 11:37:28 am

Quote from: Tiruin on December 22, 2013, 02:42:24 am

Toaster: Why did you target Persus?

Because I thought he might be scum.

And what was your opinion of Persus13's last minute actions at the end of Day 2, and how did this factor into your decision to investigate him?

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 3 brings death and release
Post by: Caz on December 23, 2013, 05:03:52 pm

Quote from: Persus13 on December 23, 2013, 03:46:55 pm

Then why don't you stack them up?

Hard to get anything 100% right by this point since we don't have enough info to go on, so I'm just going by likelihood. I guess I *can* list from most to least scummy, but the margin of difference is a lot less between the last 3-4 suspects.

SBC - fakeclaimed, then cult alien hivemind, needs to die
Tiruin - protected imp both in word and action, fakeclaimed, very defensive and numerous walls of text, unnaturally worried at being lynched despite the good position of town currently
Toaster - quiet, but can't find any fault. i guess he could be scum, maybe.
Persus13 - has been read as town by toaster, which increases his chances to be town (unless dopp leader)
makeinu - DarkStar targeted him in words, was the instigator of Day2 Imp-lynching shenanigans, solid scum-hunting all game
Jim - town
Caz - town

I think I missed someone. Did I miss someone? Oh jeez. Damn you christmas festivities :'(


Persus
Depending on what happens this night, the rankings could change. Atm I don't see a better lynch than Tiruin. If you're convinced she's town, who is your alternative suspect?

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 3 brings death and release
Post by: Mephansteras on December 23, 2013, 07:54:39 pm

The Whiteboard
makeinu: Persus13
Superblackcat: Caz, Jim Groovester, makeinu, ToonyMan, Toaster
Toaster: Tiruin


  The discussion rages on, but eventually you decide that most of you are firm in your decision to lynch Superblackcat today.

  He's quiet and subdued. When Caz lifts up the pistol he speaks, quietly. "I considered slipping out when you were all talking about who to lynch tomorrow. But, it's a ship. Where would I go? So I stayed, knowing you are going to kill me. I suppose that's what I get." He stands up, Caz steps back a little and raises the gun. "I should have you know, I'm not a hivemind after all." His face splits in a grin. A grin that becomes horrible as his features melt away and his teeth grow long and pointed. He reaches out to slash Caz, but her reflexes are good. Bullet after bullet slams into the Doppelganger. She keeps firing, even after the gun is out of bullets. Jim eventually puts a hand on her shoulder.

  "He's dead, Caz. Let it go."

  Her shoulders slump as the tension drains out of her. Looking down, you can see that Superblackcat is a bit different. More...human looking, despite the lack of features. He was probably the Doppelganger Leader.

  Jim turns to look at all of you. "I...want to apologize for disguising myself. I've been looking for somewhere that I could belong for quite a while now. I...I think I've found it." He turns to Caz "I know I've taken things from you that I cannot replace, but know that doing so has brought me closer to your kind than I ever imagined. I cannot restore what I took, but I promise to do what I can to repay this debt."

  "Ok, yeah, great." Says Toaster. "How about helping us fix this ship so we can all go home?"

---

And that's that. Nearly a perfect victory for town, with only the Assassination of RangerCado to mar things at all.

All in all not too bad. Some replacements and lurking, a bit short, and I'd have liked to have seen a tenser situation for the Mind Stealer to work in, but hopefully people had fun despite all of that.

Dopp Chat (http://www.quicktopic.com/50/H/dEjDNDM4mhVsC)
Dead Chat (http://www.quicktopic.com/50/H/tH7uDcqzHGcsZ)

Spoiler: Role PMs (click to show/hide)

------------------------------------
Doppelgangers
-----------------------------------

You awoke to a rocking world, down in the dark, salty depths of a ship. Your pods went unnoticed for too long, and by the time the humans recognized the threat it was too late. The ship disabled and the communications wrecked. You have a bit of time before any rescuers will have a chance of finding you. In the meantime, you’ll need to remove anyone who might betray your presence when help dies arrive.

Imp, you took over the body of a hard old sailor. A woman who’d been through the navy, out to the merchant marines, and been on boats all her life. This makes you a Tough Doppelganger, one who’s able to shrug off punishment that would take out a lesser creature.

TheDarkStar, you managed to consume the ship’s cook. You’re a normal Doppelganger, but you do seem to have some sort of natural Anti-Tech Field that may come in handy.

Max White/Superblackcat. Leader of the Doppelgangers you’ve managed to master your transformation. You appear completely human, and should be virtually undetectable. You also possess a natural Mind Shield which will help you against any Psychic foes.

As doppelgangers you possess a natural ability to communicate telepathically amongst yourselves (http://www.quicktopic.com/50/H/dEjDNDM4mhVsC).

--

Caz 
  You are a Military Scientist transporting some experimental equipment on this ship. But with the discovery of the doppelganger pods it sounds like you might need to break it out earlier than you expected.

Please PM me by the end of Day 1 with your Tech choice.

--

Jim Groovester
  You are a Mind Stealer, an Alien marooned on this planet. You’ve been wandering the world, absorbing minds and hoping to discover some way off this rock. Unfortunately, you’re now on a ship with a bunch of ravenous Doppelgangers. You’ll need to carefully use your abilities to survive this catastrophe.

  Each night you may Abduct another player and steal their mind. You will gain their Role for the following Day and Night, as well as their Win condition until you change it again. The abducted player will return after a day as a vanilla member of their faction.

  You will need to carefully balance your abductions if you’re to end up on the winning side of this mess!
--

Persus13 (Human)
    You’re one of the crew members on board the ship. You’ve taken it upon yourself to act as an Observant Guard, watching over the others in case a doppelganger attacks. If they do attack, you’ll be able to warn the victim in time for them to escape as well as inform them of who the attacker is. Your own safety, however, is very much in doubt while performing such a dangerous job.

--

RangerCado (Human)
  You are an Intelligence  Scientist transporting some experimental equipment on this ship. But with the discovery of the doppelganger pods it sounds like you might need to break it out earlier than you expected.

Please PM me by the end of Day 1 with your Tech choice.

--

Sinlessmoon/ToonyMan (Human)
    You are one of the crew of the ship. With so much down time at see you’ve been able to practice your psychic abilities. You are a Psychic Warden, able to invoke the Ritual of Subdual to block another player from performing any actions at night. As a psychic ability this does not require you to leave your cabin.
--

Tiruin (Human)
    You have taken it upon yourself to act as a Heroic Guard, defending the other crew members against attack. Each night you may choose another player to protect. Should the player you are protecting be attacked, you’ll give them enough time to get away. However, it is unlikely that you would survive the attack yourself. Your heroic nature, however, will allow you to make sure they get to safety no matter what comes after them.

--

Toaster (Human)
    You are an Agent sent along to investigate some troubling rumors about this shipping company. It seems, however, that there are worse things afoot then you’d been led to believe. You’ll need to Investigate the other players to determine if the are Human, Doppelganger, or Alien.

--

makeinu (Human)
    You are an amature Detective who’s long practiced the art of sneaking around the ship to while away the hours. Now it seems those skills might come in handy. Each night you may investigate another player to determine what Role they have.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 3 brings death and release
Post by: Mephansteras on December 23, 2013, 07:56:34 pm

Spoiler: Night 1 (click to show/hide)

Caz    Human        Military Scientist                None    Abducted

  You sit in your cabin, idly going over some schematics, when you feel a strange presence in your mind. Everything goes dark, and you cannot move. You try to scream, but no sounds escape your lips.
 
  After a bit, you feel a something rooting around your brain. There is pain, and loss. Your mind retreats to a wonderful memory of a beach vacation you once took.
 
  [You have been Abducted by a Mind Stealer. You cannot speak in the main thread this day, nor can you take any actions the following night. You will return for the following day, but as a Vanilla Townie. Your Role has been stolen from you!]

--

Imp    Doppelganger        Tough Doppelganger                Kill Toaster    Blocked

You eagerly await the coming hunt. You pace back in forth in your cabin, waiting for the sounds of movement from outside to quiet down so that you can slip out unseen.

But something is wrong.

You feel chains wrap around you. You struggle, trying to break free, but all that does is make them bind you more. Soon you cannot move at all, and collapse onto the floor. You feel your energy being sapped from you, and then all goes dark.

You wake up the next morning with a splitting headache. Too late to go hunting. You'll just have to wait until the next night to try again.

--

Jim Groovester    Alien        Mindstealer                Abduct Caz    Abducts

You slip through the night and find Caz's cabin. With focused thoughts you stab through the feeble defenses of her mind and begin to absorb her psychic essence. A delicate process, and one that needs to be uninterrupted. You grab hold of her blank and unseeing body and guide it off to a secret hold you've prepared. There you spend the night, learning and absorbing what you can.

Pity so little of it remains for long, but you will make use of what you can.

You have gained the Role: Military Scientist - with the knowledge of the location of an Assassin Bot, primed and ready for use. You'll need to trigger this the next night, though, before its complex instructions fade from your mind.

You are now Town-aligned.

--

makeinu    Human        Detective                Investigate Jim Groovester    Mind Stealer

You have a few cheap spy-style listening devices you picked up at port one time for fun. Now you actually have a real use for them! You slip off to Jim Groovester's cabin and set a few of them up where you think they'll pick up some sounds.

You then camp out nearby, but out of sight, and see what you can learn.

You hear lots of mumbling and some very strange things coming from him. You finally piece together that he's got some sort of Mind Stealer powers! You're not sure if that's good or bad, given the situation with the doppelgangers, but it's certainly more interesting than you'd expected.

--

Persus13    Human        Observant Guard                Protect Jim Groovester    Protects

  You decide that it's most important to keep Jim alive, so you hang out near his cabin for the night. Fortunatetly, nothing happens so your skills aren't needed.

--
           
Sinlessmoon    Human        Psychic Warden                Block Imp    Blocks

  You sit at your table, a large blue candle in front of you and a small bronze chain in your hands. Reading from the Great Book on Psychic Wardening, you encant the Ritual of Subdual. Slowly you can feel the chain wrapping out from around you to ensnare Imp. The trap tightens, and you can feel the stuggles of her spirit as she tried to break free. But it is no use, she is trapped and the Ritual is draining her strength. She shall do nothing this night.
 
  Hey, what do you know? This book actually works!


--
       
Tiruin    Human        Heroic Guard                Guard Imp    Guards

  You decide that it's most important to keep Imp alive, so you hang out near her cabin for the night. Fortunatetly, nothing happens so your skills aren't needed.

--

Toaster    Human        Agent                Investigate Caz    Gone

  You decide to see what's up with Caz, so you sneak off to her cabin. Unfortunately, you're not able to learn anything as she is simply gone. You wait for a while, but she never returns. Eventually you give up and head back to your cabin to try to get some sleep.

Spoiler: Night 2 (click to show/hide)

Caz    Human        Military Scientist                Return    Returns

  You awaken in a cargo container. You're tired, hungry, and a little smelly. That's the first thing you notice.
 
  The second thing you notice is that your mind feels...full of holes. Like parts of your life have been taken from you.
 
  Dazed, you return to your room to try and piece together what's happened to you.
 
  (You are now a basic Townsperson)

--

Jim Groovester    Alien        Mindstealer                Assassinate RangerCado    Assassinates

  You can feel the advanced scientific knowledge stolen from Caz slipping away. Best use this device before you forget how.
 
  You set it to go off against RangerCado and then head to bed. You'll know if it succeeded in the morning.
 
  By morning you've lost almost all of the knowledge you'd gained, but you still remember enough to log in and check the results of the Assassination. Flawless mission: Target has been neutralized.

--

makeinu    Human        Detective                Investigate Superblackcat    No Role

  You sneak off to Superblackcat's house and set up your devices before settling in for a steakout. After a while of listening to what he does and the sounds made in his cabin you determine that there isn't anything special about him. He has No Role of note.

--

Persus13    Human        Observant Guard                Guard Toonyman    Guards

  You spend the evening camped out near Toonyman's house to make sure that he's safe for the night. Fortunately, nothing interesting happens and your services are not needed.

--

RangerCado    Human        Intelligence Scientist    Blocked, Dies

You sit at your desk, monitoring your surveillance system and making a few adjustments to its code when you feel a strange sensation. It feels as if chains have been wrapped around you, but you can't see anything different. You try to get up, only to fall out of your chair as your legs and arms sieze. You struggle, but the struggling only makes the chains tighter. You can feel the energy being drained from you. Your eyes grow heavy, your mind dulls, and then everything fades to black.

At some point your soul releases its grip on your body and floats off to the ether (http://www.quicktopic.com/50/H/tH7uDcqzHGcsZ).

--

Toonyman    Human        Psychic Warden                Block RangerCado    Blocks

  You sit down at your table and prepare to perform the Ritual of Subdual again. You light the candle and wrap the chain about your fingers. The words of the ritual come slowly to you, the memorization new, but you get through it and feel the chains wrapping around RangerCado. You feel his struggles, the energy leaving him, and then the quiet of success. He will do nothing this night.

--

Tiruin    Human        Heroic Guard                Guard Makeinu    Guards

  You grab a thermos full of coffee and sneak off towards Makeinu's cabin. Got to make sure he's safe tonight, since you're pretty sure the dopps are going to be after him. But, no, the evening passes quietly. You trudge back to your cabin when the coffee no longer has any power to keep you awake.

--

Toaster    Human        Agent                Inspect Persus13    Human

  You sneak off to Persus13's cabin and watch him for a bit. You were a little worried about him, but he doesn't show any of the signs that you'd expect of a doppelganger or alien. He's just a Human like yourself. You head back to your cabin to ponder the events of the past day.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Game Over!
Post by: Caz on December 23, 2013, 07:58:55 pm

Woah. Damn. Good game everyone. Sorry Tiruin.  :-X


I... still don't know why SBC bothered to claim hivemind though. Boggles the mind, it does.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Game Over!
Post by: Persus13 on December 23, 2013, 08:12:35 pm

Called it.

I'd been suspicious of SBC being a dopp since he voted me. His silence and lie about converting RangerCado brought my suspicions of that eventuality back up.

Good Game all.

I got to say thanks to Makeinu. PMs really make this game more interesting, and I enjoyed working with Tiruin and people.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Game Over!
Post by: Persus13 on December 23, 2013, 08:16:23 pm

I also was right that Tiruin was Town. Being right about Tiruin's alignment is a fist and something I'm pretty excited about.

Max, if you read this, you may want to change your scum strategy D1.

Imp, did you switch to DarkStar to prevent a Max lynch?

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Game Over!
Post by: Caz on December 23, 2013, 08:21:20 pm

I was getting a little unsure of Tiruin too, but just couldn't see who the scum *could* be if not Tiruin. Toaster was 2nd after that, but unless something definite happened in the night I was still gonna vote to lynch Tiruin. Didn't really cross my mind at all that SBC could be the last dopp. Scum claiming cult is something I've never seen before... O_o

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 3 brings death and release
Post by: Jim Groovester on December 23, 2013, 08:22:24 pm

Quote from: Mephansteras on December 23, 2013, 07:54:39 pm

And that's that. Nearly a perfect victory for town, with only the Assassination of RangerCado to mar things at all.

Whoops.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 3 brings death and release
Post by: Mephansteras on December 23, 2013, 08:25:25 pm

Quote from: Jim Groovester on December 23, 2013, 08:22:24 pm

Quote from: Mephansteras on December 23, 2013, 07:54:39 pm

And that's that. Nearly a perfect victory for town, with only the Assassination of RangerCado to mar things at all.

Whoops.

Eh, it happens.

What was your opinion of the Mind Stealer? I know it wasn't exactly a difficult choice after Day 2 on what to do, but what are your thoughts in general?

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Game Over!
Post by: Tiruin on December 23, 2013, 08:32:23 pm

wat

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Game Over!
Post by: Tiruin on December 23, 2013, 08:33:35 pm

...I should never try to go against my intuition >_<

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Game Over!
Post by: Tiruin on December 23, 2013, 08:34:30 pm

Quote from: Caz on December 23, 2013, 07:58:55 pm

I... still don't know why SBC bothered to claim hivemind though. Boggles the mind, it does.

I don't know anymore.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Game Over!
Post by: Tiruin on December 23, 2013, 08:35:29 pm

Quote from: Caz on December 23, 2013, 08:21:20 pm

I was getting a little unsure of Tiruin too, but just couldn't see who the scum *could* be if not Tiruin. Toaster was 2nd after that, but unless something definite happened in the night I was still gonna vote to lynch Tiruin. Didn't really cross my mind at all that SBC could be the last dopp. Scum claiming cult is something I've never seen before... O_o

He didn't really claim cult...
...
...
Give me a moment to think.
..
No he didn't claim cult directly.

Edit.
.
Yeah I can't speak but in ellipsis. Most of me is going 'Ooooohhhhh SBC I'm so sorryyyyyy' but there's a tiny portion in me reveling in this vague and nebulous set of chaos and quietly laughing to herself saying 'I told you so, even if I didn't get it right.'

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Game Over!
Post by: Tiruin on December 23, 2013, 08:45:35 pm

Quote from: Caz on December 23, 2013, 08:21:20 pm

I was getting a little unsure of Tiruin too, but just couldn't see who the scum *could* be if not Tiruin. Toaster was[...]

This was what I was (getting the) feeling (from) towards any of you. I didn't sense any intended aggression but I didn't see any...real scumhunting in between though. I stand by my word that I really felt that how the concluding attempts at 'rooting out the last scum' lacked...conviction(?), or at least any backing case.

So yes I felt labeled because nobody bothered to even link or quote anything against me. >_>

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Game Over!
Post by: ToonyMan on December 23, 2013, 08:45:42 pm

This was literally the easiest game of mafia I have ever been in.  I didn't have to think once after replacing in.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Game Over!
Post by: Tiruin on December 23, 2013, 08:46:42 pm

Quote from: ToonyMan on December 23, 2013, 08:45:42 pm

This was literally the easiest game of mafia I have ever been in.  I didn't have to think once after replacing in.

:I
<_<
Bleh.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 3 brings death and release
Post by: Leafsnail on December 23, 2013, 08:47:34 pm

Quote from: Mephansteras on December 23, 2013, 08:25:25 pm

What was your opinion of the Mind Stealer? I know it wasn't exactly a difficult choice after Day 2 on what to do, but what are your thoughts in general?

I don't like it at all for several reasons.

1. Its win condition is much too easy.  It can choose whichever win condition it likes and switch if things are going bad for it.
2. It can perfectly divine the alignment of a player every night.  That makes it a supercop that can both create confirmed townies and condemned scum.
3. It makes the game more swingy.  If the town does poorly early on then it can join the doppelganger team and seal their fate.  If the town does well early on it can stamp the scum into oblivion with its supercop ability.

These reasons put together means that it's too easy to win and has a negative effect on the game as a whole.

e: I'm not Jim so I don't know how it worked out this game, but I think these are inherent problems with the role.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Game Over!
Post by: Tiruin on December 23, 2013, 08:49:58 pm

Quote from: Jim

You have gained the Role: Military Scientist - with the knowledge of the location of an Assassin Bot, primed and ready for use. You'll need to trigger this the next night, though, before its complex instructions fade from your mind.

You are now Town-aligned.

...The bolded part never occurred to me as a factor on why he wouldn't use it >_<

And I'm posting emotionally again...

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Game Over!
Post by: ToonyMan on December 23, 2013, 08:58:25 pm

I've noticed too, I've been town since being King Mafia (besides Roguelike Mafia 6 but I replaced really late).  It's getting kind of disappointing!

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Game Over!
Post by: Jim Groovester on December 23, 2013, 09:00:11 pm

Quote from: Mephansteras on December 23, 2013, 08:25:25 pm

What was your opinion of the Mind Stealer? I know it wasn't exactly a difficult choice after Day 2 on what to do, but what are your thoughts in general?

I think it's difficult for the Mind Stealer to side with the dopps even if he wants to. Abducting a dopp is a pretty large disruption to the dopp team, and now the Mind Stealer knows that player's alignment. The Mind Stealer can just out the dopp then and possibly swing the game into the town's favor even if they've been playing poorly so far. I would wager that this is probably the most expedient solution for the Mind Stealer in the case of a dopp abduction.

If there were an easy way for the Mind Stealer to invite himself onto the dopp team without also harming the dopp team at the same time, I think I would like the role better.

Basically I don't really see a reason not to play for the town team in most circumstances.

PPE: Basically what Leafsnail said. The infallible role inspect, infallible alignment inspect, and roleblock is pretty ridiculous.

Quote from: Tiruin on December 23, 2013, 08:32:23 pm

wat

Surprise!

We win!

Quote from: Imp in scumchat

At a guess, Jim has observed and taught a few -hundred- new players. At a guess, he's directly interacted with at least 50 new players in their first few games and around a hundred 'newbies in the intermediate' stage.

And he's probably got an IQ of 135+.

These are all exaggerations by the way, but I do appreciate the compliments.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Game Over!
Post by: Tiruin on December 23, 2013, 09:04:16 pm

Quote from: Jim Groovester on December 23, 2013, 09:00:11 pm

Quote from: Imp in scumchat

At a guess, Jim has observed and taught a few -hundred- new players. At a guess, he's directly interacted with at least 50 new players in their first few games and around a hundred 'newbies in the intermediate' stage.

And he's probably got an IQ of 135+.

These are all exaggerations by the way, but I do appreciate the compliments.

Jim is rather humble. It's like the icing on the cake of who seems like a grumpy guy at first...aaaand that's before you consider his other positive traits. :D
^{In other words: "Jim is awesome and I'm really glad I got to meet him as my first IC when I played in."}

Quote from: Jim Groovester on December 23, 2013, 09:00:11 pm

Surprise!

We win!

I feel horrible for ranting. >_<

Quote from: Caz on December 23, 2013, 07:58:55 pm

Woah. Damn. Good game everyone. Sorry Tiruin.  :-X

Nooooo..wait, thanks but..argh.
I mean I wasn't frustrated at any one single person specifically but the mood was...lax! I was frustrated at what I perceived to be the consensus of the crowd and.. >_<
^{I'm a horrible person :S}

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Game Over!
Post by: Persus13 on December 23, 2013, 09:10:13 pm

These games can make me really paranoid. I was convinced everyone was scum D3 except Tiruin and Toony.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Game Over!
Post by: ToonyMan on December 23, 2013, 09:13:04 pm

I feel kind of bad I couldn't replace sooner.  I could have given SBC advice as his scum partner.

EDIT:
That's actually not true.  SBC would then have to replace Sinless and the game would be very different...

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Game Over!
Post by: Tiruin on December 23, 2013, 09:13:23 pm

Quote from: Persus13 on December 23, 2013, 09:10:13 pm

These games can make me really paranoid. I was convinced everyone was scum D3 except Tiruin and Toony.

Yeah, in public. :P
You weren't in the PMs.

Quote from: ToonyMan on December 23, 2013, 09:13:04 pm

I feel kind of bad I couldn't replace sooner.  I could have given SBC advice as his scum partner.

*sigh*
Ok, I'll come out with it. Part of the reasons I've been 'defensive' (yeah I don't like the general use of this term anymore ._. is there anyway we can redefine the 'scumtell'-defensive and the general being-defensive?) was that..well, I did pity kittycat when we finished talking and I -did- offer him neutral PM advice. Though that advice was more skewed on him being an Alien, it also poked at 'what to do when you've to do stuff with your role and tell others about it'.

Hence why I'm really sorry @Superblackcat right now. I mean, I fully expected to be vindicated one way or another but..not this (I guess)!

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Game Over!
Post by: ToonyMan on December 23, 2013, 09:19:02 pm

Well imagine this Tiruin, there's a murder in a closed room and the only person in there during that time was you.  It doesn't matter who the true culprit was, if everybody else has an alibi but you and the alien (who was actually the true culprit) who can we possibly put blame on?  Somebody is the culprit, after all.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Game Over!
Post by: makeinu on December 23, 2013, 09:20:51 pm

*laughs at Jim's "Whoops"*

Sorry, a little, about outing you. I really did go to Persus first, because I had a good feel, and I wasn't sure what to think about you.

I won't apologize for the vote thing D2. It was luck that I was right about Imp being scum, but I did take some satisfaction that my instincts and analysis were right in the end. But the real point was that by that point, I knew Persus was Town, especially after his role claim, and I couldn't stand by and watch a townie die, especially not a guard.

Aaaaanyway, it was awesome to see you play.

Quote from: Tiruin on December 23, 2013, 08:45:35 pm

So yes I felt labeled because nobody bothered to even link or quote anything against me. >_>

I quoted and linked against you, frequently. I just wasn't pressing the case as I might normally have done because the point was to just push you, so I was a lot more haphazard than thorough. Because at that point, the only case I could see was you or Toaster as scum hiding in plain sight.

Quote from: Tiruin on December 23, 2013, 08:33:35 pm

...I should never try to go against my intuition >_<

No, you shouldn't.

Quote from: Tiruin on December 23, 2013, 09:04:16 pm

Quote from: Caz on December 23, 2013, 07:58:55 pm

Woah. Damn. Good game everyone. Sorry Tiruin.  :-X

Nooooo..wait, thanks but..argh.
I mean I wasn't frustrated at any one single person specifically but the mood was...lax! I was frustrated at what I perceived to be the consensus of the crowd and.. >_<
^{I'm a horrible person :S}

Nooooo, you're not. What Caz said.

Quote from: Leafsnail on December 23, 2013, 08:47:34 pm

Quote from: Mephansteras on December 23, 2013, 08:25:25 pm

What was your opinion of the Mind Stealer? I know it wasn't exactly a difficult choice after Day 2 on what to do, but what are your thoughts in general?

I don't like it at all for several reasons.

What he said, but it was interesting to see it in action.

Quote from: Tiruin on December 23, 2013, 08:34:30 pm

Quote from: Caz on December 23, 2013, 07:58:55 pm

I... still don't know why SBC bothered to claim hivemind though. Boggles the mind, it does.

I don't know anymore.

Thing is, he never claimed directly, and he did have a pretty strong case that he could've made if he'd just played it more openly.

Scum chat was an awesome read.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Game Over!
Post by: ToonyMan on December 23, 2013, 09:25:20 pm

Also Makeinu and Toaster, Jim and I were totally going to go behind your back and block/abduct you two just in case if the game actually continued.

Quote from: ToonyMan on December 21, 2013, 09:36:44 pm

Quote from: Jim Groovester on December 21, 2013, 05:43:19 pm

makeinu's plan is dumb and I don't like it.
There's literally no reason to abduct you since if you perform a roleblock then you're not performing the night kill.
There's also no reason for you to block Caz since he has no action.
It also leaves him, Toaster, and Tiruin to do whatever they want, which completely boggles my mind since I am of the opinion that they're the three remaining candidates for the final dopp.
I say you and I depart from the plan to do something more productive, like roleblock and abduct makeinu and Toaster.

Yeah sure.  I guess I'll role-block Makeinu and you can abduct Toaster.  I was a bit worried that Makeinu and Toaster were a team but since Imp died that would only leave one dopp left.  If there's still a kill then Makeinu and Toaster certainly didn't do it so we'd lynch Tiruin, the end.

Quote from: ToonyMan on December 22, 2013, 07:02:51 pm

Quote from: Jim Groovester on December 22, 2013, 06:29:35 pm

Quote from: ToonyMan on December 22, 2013, 11:22:05 am

Quote from: Jim Groovester on December 21, 2013, 05:43:19 pm

makeinu's plan is dumb and I don't like it.
There's literally no reason to abduct you since if you perform a roleblock then you're not performing the night kill.
There's also no reason for you to block Caz since he has no action.
It also leaves him, Toaster, and Tiruin to do whatever they want, which completely boggles my mind since I am of the opinion that they're the three remaining candidates for the final dopp.
I say you and I depart from the plan to do something more productive, like roleblock and abduct makeinu and Toaster.

Wait maybe I should block Toaster and you abduct Makeinu.  I have a more likely feeling Toaster would be the dopp and I'm not exactly sure how Mind Stealer works.  If you actually abducted the last dopp wouldn't you become a dopp for that day/night cycle?

I'll have the dopp win con, but if I get it I have no intention of keeping it. If I abduct the last dopp, the only way to get at him is to wait for him to come back, which gives me time to find a new wincon, or lynch me, which leaves a dopp free to roam around at night. I think everyone will go with the former option.

I should be safe, whoever I target.

Alright I'll do Makeinu then.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Game Over!
Post by: makeinu on December 23, 2013, 09:30:44 pm

Quote from: Persus13 on December 23, 2013, 08:16:23 pm

Imp, did you switch to DarkStar to prevent a Max lynch?

She covers that in dopp chat. I won't quote it, as it's Imp-sized.

Quote from: Persus13 on December 23, 2013, 08:12:35 pm

PMs really make this game more interesting, and I enjoyed working with Tiruin and people.

PMs change the whole game.

ToonyMan, Jim, I wouldn't have blamed you a bit, afterwards.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Game Over!
Post by: RangerCado on December 23, 2013, 09:37:14 pm

I feel bad for doubting Tiruin now :(

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Game Over!
Post by: Leafsnail on December 23, 2013, 09:39:05 pm

Oh right, as a final point I'll state that an infallible alignment cop is an even bigger problem in a game with PMs.  The cop can send his results to the person he just inspected and not reveal his own identity.

Quote from: ToonyMan on December 23, 2013, 09:19:02 pm

Well imagine this Tiruin, there's a murder in a closed room and the only person in there during that time was you.  It doesn't matter who the true culprit was, if everybody else has an alibi but you and the alien (who was actually the true culprit) who can we possibly put blame on?  Somebody is the culprit, after all.

I would put the blame on a third party using an unknown remote murder method X.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Game Over!
Post by: Tiruin on December 23, 2013, 09:41:49 pm

Quote from: ToonyMan on December 23, 2013, 09:19:02 pm

Well imagine this Tiruin, there's a murder in a closed room and the only person in there during that time was you.  It doesn't matter who the true culprit was, if everybody else has an alibi but you and the alien (who was actually the true culprit) who can we possibly put blame on?  Somebody is the culprit, after all.

Yes I know but but..but it was how you guys out the culprit out! I mean..it was like that to me..or maybe because I felt unjustified by the crowd :S

...

Quote from: RangerCado on December 23, 2013, 09:37:14 pm

I feel bad for doubting Tiruin now :(

It was all my fault! DX You were right to doubt me and...I felt attacked and..did that! But I also felt justified that people weren't building up cases...but then I'd have to be lynched tomorrow seeing the lack of a kill-to-me- today..explaining that kind of work...but I guess I was frustrated at the process how I'm being outed instead and thanks Toaster for that sorry but arghghgh.
>_<
Yeah I get it and oops.

Also reading the scumchat..Reply #214 really is funny. (..yep, makeinu really did transfer to Town recently so I..had nobody else to pull but Toaster.)..:P

Quote from: makeinu on December 23, 2013, 09:20:51 pm

Scum chat was an awesome read.

Yes. Yes it was. Imp was just as how I predicted Imp to be. An "evil" and awesome villain that I aspire to be one day! :D
But in all seriousness...I'm being read as easily as a pane of glass..and its 99% foolproof ._.
Wow Imp.
Also I like those music additions you posted there. :P

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Game Over!
Post by: makeinu on December 23, 2013, 09:49:37 pm

Quote from: Leafsnail on December 23, 2013, 09:39:05 pm

Oh right, as a final point I'll state that an infallible alignment cop is an even bigger problem in a game with PMs.  The cop can send his results to the person he just inspected and not reveal his own identity.

Aaaaaaand there you hit on THE problem with games on the forum where I learned to play. That, and the fact that they don't know how to scum-hunt without PMs and meta tells.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Game Over!
Post by: Tiruin on December 23, 2013, 09:51:23 pm

Quote from: makeinu on December 23, 2013, 09:20:51 pm

Quote from: Tiruin on December 23, 2013, 08:45:35 pm

So yes I felt labeled because nobody bothered to even link or quote anything against me. >_>

I quoted and linked against you, frequently. I just wasn't pressing the case as I might normally have done because the point was to just push you, so I was a lot more haphazard than thorough. Because at that point, the only case I could see was you or Toaster as scum hiding in plain sight.

Oh man, you don't know how much I was pondering that sudden twist of your attitude back there..Smooth detective, is all I can say.

---

Quote from: makeinu on December 23, 2013, 09:49:37 pm

Quote from: Leafsnail on December 23, 2013, 09:39:05 pm

Oh right, as a final point I'll state that an infallible alignment cop is an even bigger problem in a game with PMs.  The cop can send his results to the person he just inspected and not reveal his own identity.

Aaaaaaand there you hit on THE problem with games on the forum where I learned to play. That, and the fact that they don't know how to scum-hunt without PMs and meta tells.

He didn't do this however (or..didn't sound like he did it to me--the infallible part) because he..still had space for scrutiny. That, or I didn't really bother to check back as I was wavering on makeinu. Still didn't look like PMs did play a huge role here (the suspense is obvious..).

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Game Over!
Post by: TheDarkStar on December 23, 2013, 09:56:04 pm

This game was great for the town and just sad for the dopps. No mislynches at all, and not even any dopp kills  :(.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Game Over!
Post by: Leafsnail on December 23, 2013, 09:56:20 pm

The one thing that potentially weakens the power of the mindstealer as a supercop is the possibility of a betrayal, but the role has very little reason to do so if the game is going well (and it probably is going well if the town has a supercop).

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Game Over!
Post by: makeinu on December 23, 2013, 10:01:02 pm

Quote from: Tiruin on December 23, 2013, 09:51:23 pm

Quote from: makeinu on December 23, 2013, 09:20:51 pm

Quote from: Tiruin on December 23, 2013, 08:45:35 pm

So yes I felt labeled because nobody bothered to even link or quote anything against me. >_>

I quoted and linked against you, frequently. I just wasn't pressing the case as I might normally have done because the point was to just push you, so I was a lot more haphazard than thorough. Because at that point, the only case I could see was you or Toaster as scum hiding in plain sight.

Oh man, you don't know how much I was pondering that sudden twist of your attitude back there..Smooth detective, is all I can say.

Imp's reaction in dopp chat was what I was shooting for. Just this side of scummy so I don't get lynched, but too close to the line to be seen as a threat to the scum worthy of the night kill.

It'll never work again here.

Quote from: Leafsnail on December 23, 2013, 09:56:20 pm

The one thing that potentially weakens the power of the mindstealer as a supercop is the possibility of a betrayal, but the role has very little reason to do so if the game is going well.

Even that isn't a real threat played the way Jim played it.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 3 brings death and release
Post by: Toaster on December 23, 2013, 10:11:47 pm

Sorry, Tiruin.  I didn't admit the possibility that SBC was simply a Dopp.  But beyond that, yeah, it simply had to be you if it wasn't him.  That's why no one was attacking your arguments and words- there wasn't anything you said or did to attack.

Quote from: Leafsnail on December 23, 2013, 08:47:34 pm

2. It can perfectly divine the alignment of a player every night.  That makes it a supercop that can both create confirmed townies and condemn scum.

This, I think, is its biggest issue.  It simply does too much.

Quote from: Tiruin on December 23, 2013, 09:13:23 pm

Ok, I'll come out with it. Part of the reasons I've been 'defensive' (yeah I don't like the general use of this term anymore ._. is there anyway we can redefine the 'scumtell'-defensive and the general being-defensive?) was that..well, I did pity kittycat when we finished talking and I -did- offer him neutral PM advice. Though that advice was more skewed on him being an Alien, it also poked at 'what to do when you've to do stuff with your role and tell others about it'.

If it makes you feel better, I started typing out an accusation to you at one point for being defensive, then backed it out since you're always defensive.


Toony:  Can't say I blame you for me.  I wasn't at all cleared... but Makeinu was screamingly obvtown, really.  Just look at DarkStar's non-case on her D1- this is the same way I figured out RangerCado was town in Magic Mafia.


SBC:  Remember this?

Quote from: Toaster on December 20, 2013, 01:18:26 pm

Makeinu: I see a possible explanation for the "two shields" bit, but I'm not going to say what it is until Mr. Cat comes forward and corrects his claim.

The correct answer was "Alien Survivor" with a natural mind shield.  If you had claimed that, not only would I have bought it at first, I would have tried to help you win.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Game Over!
Post by: Leafsnail on December 23, 2013, 10:16:15 pm

Although when the town is that far ahead there's no real reason not to lynch suspicious alien claims.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Game Over!
Post by: Toaster on December 23, 2013, 10:24:47 pm

Quote from: Leafsnail on December 23, 2013, 10:16:15 pm

Although when the town is that far ahead there's no real reason not to lynch suspicious alien claims.

This is true, and another reason I was fine with lynching Tiruin with no actual evidence against her specifically.  I wasn't going to spell it out, but we had plenty of time.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Game Over!
Post by: Mephansteras on December 23, 2013, 10:30:48 pm

Yeah, everyone's thoughts on the Mind Stealer pretty much echo mine. So the role needs tweaking.

Might make it more like the Xeno, and change it from stealing win conditions to needing to steal X number of different roles. Roles with subtypes like Guards & Scientists would all count as the same type, rather than individual subtypes. So you can't just steal a few different guards and be mostly done.

But I'm ponder it.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Game Over!
Post by: Caz on December 23, 2013, 11:32:42 pm

Quote from: makeinu on December 23, 2013, 09:30:44 pm

I won't quote it, as it's Imp-sized.

Heh.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Game Over!
Post by: Superblackcat on December 23, 2013, 11:37:00 pm

So sorry about the lack of activity last 3 pages... Not that it woulda made a difference...

I had an assortment of parties that made me feel self important after winter break started, so those took up my days.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Game Over!
Post by: Tiruin on December 24, 2013, 01:30:29 am

Question still stands.

Why did you tell me about having two shields.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Game Over!
Post by: Imp on December 24, 2013, 02:33:17 am

Hey all, good game, sorry I couldn't give you a better run for your monies; I of course would have loved to have taken the pot home with me if it had worked out that way.

Jim:  Thanks for lesson about end of day vote shenanigans.  Lesson learned, I hope *rubs neck*

makeinu:  Man.  Maybe verbosity is a scumtell where you're from, but it's a me tell, period.  Not that I expect you to peek at my previous games, but if you can say something in 5 words, figure I need at least 50 and if I only use 50, I'm feeling rushed, pinched, and incomplete.

Everyone, about makeinu:  I was floored that any of you trusted makeinu after his D1 capers.  I couldn't see any reason why -any- of you would accept that -anyone- would trust him in a PM.  I couldn't imagine trusting him myself.  Given that he approached Jim with some form of 'I inspected you and know your role' and that role was true, I can see why Jim would be most cooperative.  But the rest of you?  Wowsers.

Everyone:  No one but Meph sent me a PM this game.  I've never played in a game with PMs.  I feel like I missed a learning opportunity, and I think I've developed a probably irrational fear of Mafia games that allow PMs between players.  Granted, I was Scum so don't deserve anything but a noose, but still.  I felt left out and horrified!  Great job 'shutting Scum out'.

Everyone:  Sorry for my lack of involvement D2+.  I believe I was present a reasonable amount D1, if not, whoops and sorry.  My life fell apart a bit after I started this game, with separate and mutually unrelated challenges/threats to my comfort, health, residence, employment, employer, co-workers, and roommate all occuring within the span of a couple weeks and some still being a problem even now.  I still feel besieged by life, and I've definately developed an irrational fear of Paranormal games  (possibly not irrational! empirical evidence supports that this fear IS RATIONAL!).

Persus13:

Quote from: Persus13 on December 23, 2013, 08:16:23 pm

Max, if you read this, you may want to change your scum strategy D1.

Imp, did you switch to DarkStar to prevent a Max lynch?

I seriously doubt that Max intends to play more Mafia anytime soon.  He'd left the game for a long time before I 'rekindled' his interest in it; from our initial PMs (outside of any game) he expressed dislike and dismay about the game; after we talked a bit about what I liked about his play and what he did in S4 he started to get some spark back, and then rapidly decided to return.  I think he wanted the fire he remembered, but I don't think play made him feel it.  I hope Max returns to us, but I'm ready to eat a hat if he does anytime soon.

As for my D1 vote, well.  Remember my list of D1 reads (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=133676.msg4822556#msg4822556)?  I was quite earnest (even if woefully inadequate) in my determination to play Scum as close as possible to how I play as Town.  I did what I would do, period (I think, I hope.  If I'm wrong, you guys see it but I don't) when it reached that point in the time where I would compromise vote, I compromise voted.  Note that Max was listed around the middle of my suspicion list - Star was second most suspicious.

Who the heck would compromise from their top scum pick to someone they list as mostly null instead of compromising to their second scummiest pick?  .... Not Imp, I don't think.

Star could potentially have played his way out of it; that just didn't happen to happen.

Tiruin:  Fascinating play, especially in the last half of the game.  Never saw an 'I vote myself' used before in an even possibly poinant and value-containing way.

SuperBlackCat:  Interesting choices.  I'm sorry I wasn't there when you probably really wanted some help and advice.  You did some very, very interesting things in your play this game, and though I don't think I'd have made a single choice you made and the exact details of your plan were not workable for your survival - you actually did quite well in your chosen goal (I am not scum).  Well done, and great show!

makeinu: 

Quote from: makeinu on December 23, 2013, 09:20:51 pm

Scum chat was an awesome read.

Why do you think this?

Tiruin:

Quote from: Tiruin on December 23, 2013, 09:41:49 pm

Imp was just as how I predicted Imp to be. An "evil" and awesome villain that I aspire to be one day! :D
But in all seriousness...I'm being read as easily as a pane of glass..and its 99% foolproof ._.

Tiruin, that's amazing, almost rediculously over the top praise from one who is commonly referred to as an extremely dangerous Scum player.  I have to say, having been in two games where you were Scum... Yeah, you're amazing as Scum (I've been in two games where you're Town, too - you're amazing as Town as well).  I'm not sure what you have to aspire to - but whatever it is, you're already well up that mountain.

As to being able to read you - ehh.  Only in certain ways, extremely limited ways, and closely related to areas of behavior we've interacted in during intense situations in the past.  Otherwise, you're quite unpredictable to me.

makeinu:

Quote from: makeinu on December 23, 2013, 10:01:02 pm

Imp's reaction in dopp chat was what I was shooting for. Just this side of scummy so I don't get lynched, but too close to the line to be seen as a threat to the scum worthy of the night kill.

It'll never work again here.

Ehh.  Against me it might.  Depends on who else you play beside.  I am going to try and take the greatest threat to my team out of play, unless I believe I a) cannot or b) had better not because of other likely repercussions.  You're 'competing' against some awesomely scary others, depending on who else is on the player list.  At best - you rank among them.

However, by all means, prove me wrong.  If you think you belong in a new rank of 'dangerous' that tops the range I percieve the other, currently appraised 'most dangerous players' to have attained - go for it.  I'm perfectly willing to create a new category in my head that's just for you, if your play is worthy of that.  And it will be awesome to read those games and see what you can do.  At your leisure, fine Sir.

Everyone:  Thanks for the fun.  Sorry for my low involvement.  I am very glad of one thing - I died through involvement, not survived through silence.  I wasn't playing to try and die, but I did mind greatly that I couldn't give this game the time it needs and deserves.  It's nice to be outplayed, and I totally didn't factor in makeinu's presence and desire to see me lynched when I moved at the end of D2 to see Jim lynched instead of Persus.

Question:  A Scum took action to -die- to save Persus.  Yet no one appeared to find Persus suspicious for that.  Why not?

Another Question:  The 'interaction' between Jim and I end of D2, that could only have resulted in his death or mine, I think.  Why the -heck- did anyone suspect Jim of being Scum past that point, as was discussed a bit?

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Game Over!
Post by: makeinu on December 24, 2013, 02:43:54 am

Quote from: Imp on December 24, 2013, 02:33:17 am

makeinu:  Man.  Maybe verbosity is a scumtell where you're from, but it's a me tell, period.  Not that I expect you to peek at my previous games, but if you can say something in 5 words, figure I need at least 50 and if I only use 50, I'm feeling rushed, pinched, and incomplete.

Not so much verbosity, per se, though it tends to be a tell where I've played before, but more what and how you were saying it. I wish I could explain it, but it was more a feeling that you weren't trying as hard as you appeared to be. If that makes sense.

And I really don't think I could play another game here the way I played this one, unless I played every game here that way, and I'm not sure I'm up to maintaining that level of crazy.

Scum chat was an awesome read because of the analysis there, mostly you of course, and partly because of the effect that my actions were having on said analysis. I love being able to see behind the scenes afterward; it's always a learning experience.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Game Over!
Post by: makeinu on December 24, 2013, 02:48:28 am

Quote from: makeinu on December 24, 2013, 02:43:54 am

Scum chat was an awesome read because

More.

By getting to see your reaction to my behavior, I get to hold a mirror up to myself, one that's colored by another's expectations and thoughts. A telepathic mirror. I get to see me through your eyes.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Game Over!
Post by: Tiruin on December 24, 2013, 02:56:57 am

Quote from: Imp on December 24, 2013, 02:33:17 am

Everyone, about makeinu:  I was floored that any of you trusted makeinu after his D1 capers.  I couldn't see any reason why -any- of you would accept that -anyone- would trust him in a PM.  I couldn't imagine trusting him myself.  Given that he approached Jim with some form of 'I inspected you and know your role' and that role was true, I can see why Jim would be most cooperative.  But the rest of you?  Wowsers.

Woa, woah. I doubted makeinu there D:
I doubted him until the end until I reached to the point wherein I was weighing makeinu and Toaster.

...It was a very hard decision, to say the least. >_>

Quote

Everyone:  No one but Meph sent me a PM this game.  I've never played in a game with PMs.  I feel like I missed a learning opportunity, and I think I've developed a probably irrational fear of Mafia games that allow PMs between players.  Granted, I was Scum so don't deserve anything but a noose, but still.  I felt left out and horrified!  Great job 'shutting Scum out'.

...I don't know why I didn't pM you! DX
*checks back*
Ahh, I didn't know until that time of day....
._.
Sorry. I really would've PM'd you as I PM'd those I either trust, or those I want info from.

Quote

Everyone:  Sorry for my lack of involvement D2+.  I believe I was present a reasonable amount D1, if not, whoops and sorry.  My life fell apart a bit after I started this game, with separate and mutually unrelated challenges/threats to my comfort, health, residence, employment, employer, co-workers, and roommate all occuring within the span of a couple weeks and some still being a problem even now.  I still feel besieged by life, and I've definately developed an irrational fear of Paranormal games  (possibly not irrational! empirical evidence supports that this fear IS RATIONAL!).

You have to believe Imp here guys. She sent me a PM on those details and...I really hope she's doing ok now (in which I notice that I didn't reply to said PM.) :S
^{Sorry Imp I'm shamed..}

Quote

I seriously doubt that Max intends to play more Mafia anytime soon.  He'd left the game for a long time before I 'rekindled' his interest in it; from our initial PMs (outside of any game) he expressed dislike and dismay about the game; after we talked a bit about what I liked about his play and what he did in S4 he started to get some spark back, and then rapidly decided to return.  I think he wanted the fire he remembered, but I don't think play made him feel it.  I hope Max returns to us, but I'm ready to eat a hat if he does anytime soon.

Well..I miss Max, to be honest.

Quote

As for my D1 vote, well.  Remember my list of D1 reads (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=133676.msg4822556#msg4822556)?  I was quite earnest (even if woefully inadequate) in my determination to play Scum as close as possible to how I play as Town.  I did what I would do, period (I think, I hope.  If I'm wrong, you guys see it but I don't) when it reached that point in the time where I would compromise vote, I compromise voted.  Note that Max was listed around the middle of my suspicion list - Star was second most suspicious.

I still wanna hear why makeinu brought that up.  Bleh, anyways.. >_>

Quote

Tiruin:  Fascinating play, especially in the last half of the game.  Never saw an 'I vote myself' used before in an even possibly poinant and value-containing way.

...But I voted myself because..um. Is that poignant? O_o?

Quote

SuperBlackCat:  Interesting choices.  I'm sorry I wasn't there when you probably really wanted some help and advice.  You did some very, very interesting things in your play this game, and though I don't think I'd have made a single choice you made and the exact details of your plan were not workable for your survival - you actually did quite well in your chosen goal (I am not scum).  Well done, and great show!

Sly lucky kitty cat~ x3

Quote

Tiruin:

Quote from: Tiruin on December 23, 2013, 09:41:49 pm

Imp was just as how I predicted Imp to be. An "evil" and awesome villain that I aspire to be one day! :D
But in all seriousness...I'm being read as easily as a pane of glass..and its 99% foolproof ._.

Tiruin, that's amazing, almost rediculously over the top praise from one who is commonly referred to as an extremely dangerous Scum player.  I have to say, having been in two games where you were Scum... Yeah, you're amazing as Scum (I've been in two games where you're Town, too - you're amazing as Town as well).  I'm not sure what you have to aspire to - but whatever it is, you're already well up that mountain.

As to being able to read you - ehh.  Only in certain ways, extremely limited ways, and closely related to areas of behavior we've interacted in during intense situations in the past.  Otherwise, you're quite unpredictable to me.

You don't know how happy this makes me. Um..words can't.  :'(

Quote from: makeinu on December 23, 2013, 10:01:02 pm

Imp's reaction in dopp chat was what I was shooting for. Just this side of scummy so I don't get lynched, but too close to the line to be seen as a threat to the scum worthy of the night kill.

It'll never work again here.

Yeah it will. That was only when you really knew who Imp was. :P

Quote

Everyone:  Thanks for the fun.  Sorry for my low involvement.  I am very glad of one thing - I died through involvement, not survived through silence.  I wasn't playing to try and die, but I did mind greatly that I couldn't give this game the time it needs and deserves.  It's nice to be outplayed, and I totally didn't factor in makeinu's presence and desire to see me lynched when I moved at the end of D2 to see Jim lynched instead of Persus.

Part of what kicked me seeing you as innocent (not 'Town', per se, but innocent) was your passion--you did all that thru stress and sleep..and I know how long it takes to write lengthy statements...
But it was great to have to scrutinize all your posts again. :P

Quote

Question:  A Scum took action to -die- to save Persus.  Yet no one appeared to find Persus suspicious for that.  Why not?

...I have no idea either. I guess its because of what Persus was really saying (sans our PM chat) that he was willing to die instead. I mean, comparing the value of a Tough Dopp (while Paranormal takes a while to get used to because of the fancy roles, a 'Tough' anything == 'immune to bullets and stuff that can kill any normal player once') it didn't click. Unless he was the dopp leader..which was only fathomed later on.

Quote

Another Question:  The 'interaction' between Jim and I end of D2, that could only have resulted in his death or mine, I think.  Why the -heck- did anyone suspect Jim of being Scum past that point, as was discussed a bit?

We did -or to be completely correct, I could say that I did (as I'm unsure of others)- but then this 'process of elimination' began the hunt for tagging people left and right, and given the scum # and checking and re-checking the Night process at the loss of a Dopp @D1, it was simple to eliminate the abductee.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 3 brings death and release
Post by: Superblackcat on December 24, 2013, 03:12:50 am

Quote from: Toaster on December 23, 2013, 10:11:47 pm

SBC:  Remember this?

Quote from: Toaster on December 20, 2013, 01:18:26 pm

Makeinu: I see a possible explanation for the "two shields" bit, but I'm not going to say what it is until Mr. Cat comes forward and corrects his claim.

The correct answer was "Alien Survivor" with a natural mind shield.  If you had claimed that, not only would I have bought it at first, I would have tried to help you win.

Toaster, I do remember, I was considering it... But sadly, I hesitated too long. Also, I felt that if I claimed Survivor, and didn't initially, I would've been completely killed.

By claiming Hivemind, I have a reason to lie the first time, by claiming Survivor, no reason to lie.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Game Over!
Post by: Imp on December 24, 2013, 03:14:26 am

Quote from: Tiruin on December 24, 2013, 02:56:57 am

Quote

Tiruin:  Fascinating play, especially in the last half of the game.  Never saw an 'I vote myself' used before in an even possibly poinant and value-containing way.

...But I voted myself because..um. Is that poignant? O_o?

yeah.  "Creating the feeling of sadness, regret, or distress, especially in connection to memories of past events".

You used words to tie it to my actions and what you understand of my feelings from the uncomfortable parts of my play in BM 43.  So I, even if only I, can indeed honestly call that poignant, even if I cannot properly spell the word without help!

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Game Over!
Post by: makeinu on December 24, 2013, 03:14:58 am

Quote from: Tiruin on December 24, 2013, 02:56:57 am

Quote from: makeinu on December 23, 2013, 10:01:02 pm

Imp's reaction in dopp chat was what I was shooting for. Just this side of scummy so I don't get lynched, but too close to the line to be seen as a threat to the scum worthy of the night kill.

It'll never work again here.

Yeah it will. That was only when you really knew who Imp was. :P

Biggest game I've ever played, we had 24 players. I led a team of six scum. I played exactly like this, and against those odds and bad scum play on the part of one bozo that cost us two scum after he was lynched, I was the last scum to survive after taking the Town down to four. Of those four, one thought me Town to the bitter end, and had it not been for one slip-up on my part, I might've still had a shot at winning: I tried to save my last scum-buddy, instead of busing them when I should have.

Why do I tell you this.

Because from that game alone, I got a rep that guaranteed I'd never be able to pull it off again.

Since then, this is the first mafia game I've lived to see the end of, no matter what my role.

It only works once.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 3 brings death and release
Post by: Imp on December 24, 2013, 03:15:24 am

Quote from: Superblackcat on December 24, 2013, 03:12:50 am

By claiming Hivemind, I have a reason to lie the first time, by claiming Survivor, no reason to lie.

Fear that they would kill you for not being Town.  And because some types of aliens are decidedly dangerous to Town.  Like the hivemind they came to believe you were.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Game Over!
Post by: Imp on December 24, 2013, 03:18:08 am

Quote from: makeinu on December 24, 2013, 03:14:58 am

Since then, this is the first mafia game I've lived to see the end of, no matter what my role.

It only works once.

Might be amusing to you to check out some of Jim's past games.  I haven't looked at all of them, but recall that quote I referenced, where he said he realized he'd never be able to do anything cool as Scum again?  Poor guy apparently attracts -crazymuch- amounts of especially new player attention.  Without fail, or nearly so.  If you can draw that off of him, he's surely going to love you for it, even if you hate it yourself.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Game Over!
Post by: Superblackcat on December 24, 2013, 03:19:45 am

Sorry Imp, I thought I could pull off an Hivemind pretend to be...

But I messed up twice, first with the hivemind claim, then with the conversions...

The thing is... Claiming Hivemind isn't a good idea... Because you can be shown to be a liar wayyy to easily.


Toaster

Quote from: Toaster on December 23, 2013, 10:11:47 pm

SBC:  Remember this?

Quote from: Toaster on December 20, 2013, 01:18:26 pm

Makeinu: I see a possible explanation for the "two shields" bit, but I'm not going to say what it is until Mr. Cat comes forward and corrects his claim.

The correct answer was "Alien Survivor" with a natural mind shield.  If you had claimed that, not only would I have bought it at first, I would have tried to help you win.

Toaster, I do remember, I was considering it... But sadly, I hesitated too long. Also, I felt that if I claimed Survivor, and didn't initially, I would've been completely killed.

By claiming Hivemind, I have a reason to lie the first time, by claiming Survivor, no reason to lie.

Tiruin: It was an on the spot, what the hell kind of thing, I'm not even sure why.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 3 brings death and release
Post by: Tiruin on December 24, 2013, 03:20:03 am

Quote from: Superblackcat on December 24, 2013, 03:12:50 am

Quote from: Toaster on December 23, 2013, 10:11:47 pm

SBC:  Remember this?

Quote from: Toaster on December 20, 2013, 01:18:26 pm

Makeinu: I see a possible explanation for the "two shields" bit, but I'm not going to say what it is until Mr. Cat comes forward and corrects his claim.

The correct answer was "Alien Survivor" with a natural mind shield.  If you had claimed that, not only would I have bought it at first, I would have tried to help you win.

Toaster, I do remember, I was considering it... But sadly, I hesitated too long. Also, I felt that if I claimed Survivor, and didn't initially, I would've been completely killed.

By claiming Hivemind, I have a reason to lie the first time, by claiming Survivor, no reason to lie.

PFP Post game response limited to this despite all other replies.

Kittycat~ DX
You needed aid :S
And really--if you did claim Survivor or Agent Operative, I'd be sure gunning to believe you there :v

Quote

Tiruin: It was an on the spot, what the hell kind of thing, I'm not even sure why.

:'(

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Game Over!
Post by: Superblackcat on December 24, 2013, 03:21:44 am

The question would've been, Why didn't I claim Survivor originally?

I stalled way too long on that... and I thought I blew it, and if I was Tiruin, I would've raised the red flag about 5 times if I claimed Survivor...

That's why I didn't. When Makeinu first suggested, I should've just outted instantly.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 3 brings death and release
Post by: makeinu on December 24, 2013, 03:22:55 am

Quote from: Imp on December 24, 2013, 03:15:24 am

Quote from: Superblackcat on December 24, 2013, 03:12:50 am

By claiming Hivemind, I have a reason to lie the first time, by claiming Survivor, no reason to lie.

Fear that they would kill you for not being Town.  And because some types of aliens are decidedly dangerous to Town.  Like the hivemind they came to believe you were.

That might've happened even if he'd claimed Survivor. With the shields he'd claimed, there was no way to verify anything on him. It might've let him live another couple days, but sooner or later, that process of elimination would've put him on the chopping block again as the only possible, however improbable, suspect.

Were I in those shoes, I'd've jumped at Agent Operative and started feeding false reports, trying to sow enough doubt that I could break trust amongst the ranks. Even that would've butted up against the Mind Stealer sooner or later.

PPE: You did miss an opportunity there, cat.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 3 brings death and release
Post by: Tiruin on December 24, 2013, 03:33:59 am

Quote from: makeinu on December 24, 2013, 03:22:55 am

Were I in those shoes, I'd've jumped at Agent Operative and started feeding false reports, trying to sow enough doubt that I could break trust amongst the ranks. Even that would've butted up against the Mind Stealer sooner or later.

PLUS, given your role? There's a claimed agent.

Problem being you'd have to fake the 'what if I know the Agent now', thing. :O I doubt this ever happened in the past games.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Game Over!
Post by: Imp on December 24, 2013, 03:35:07 am

Quote from: Superblackcat on December 24, 2013, 03:19:45 am

Sorry Imp, I thought I could pull off an Hivemind pretend to be...

But I messed up twice, first with the hivemind claim, then with the conversions...

The thing is... Claiming Hivemind isn't a good idea... Because you can be shown to be a liar wayyy to easily.


Toaster

Quote from: Toaster on December 23, 2013, 10:11:47 pm

SBC:  Remember this?

Quote from: Toaster on December 20, 2013, 01:18:26 pm

Makeinu: I see a possible explanation for the "two shields" bit, but I'm not going to say what it is until Mr. Cat comes forward and corrects his claim.

The correct answer was "Alien Survivor" with a natural mind shield.  If you had claimed that, not only would I have bought it at first, I would have tried to help you win.

Toaster, I do remember, I was considering it... But sadly, I hesitated too long. Also, I felt that if I claimed Survivor, and didn't initially, I would've been completely killed.

By claiming Hivemind, I have a reason to lie the first time, by claiming Survivor, no reason to lie.

Tiruin: It was an on the spot, what the hell kind of thing, I'm not even sure why.

Cat, you understand that they were saying D3 that they had to kill you because they thought you were Hivemind, right?  If you chose to hide as Hivemind, you picked to 'hide' as something very much like a serial killer, something that was enemy to both dopps and humans, and that Town couldn't win without your death?

You are right that claiming to be Hivemind isn't a good idea, but it's not because you can easily be proved wrong - it's because you're hiding 'being something Town needs to kill' by pretending to be 'something else Town needs to kill'.

But you don't have to be sorry to me at all!  You did really well under really hard conditions.  I've played beside you, and I took your measure very intently in our first game here, because I was -so- sure you were Scum there.  I think you did very well in this game - you played Scum better than I expected you would from our BM!

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Game Over!
Post by: Superblackcat on December 24, 2013, 03:37:07 am

Why thank you...
NOW WHY DID BOTH OF YOU GUYS DROP DEAD! D1 and D2 ARGHHH! >: C :P

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Game Over!
Post by: Tiruin on December 24, 2013, 03:39:43 am

Quote from: Imp on December 24, 2013, 03:18:08 am

Quote from: makeinu on December 24, 2013, 03:14:58 am

Since then, this is the first mafia game I've lived to see the end of, no matter what my role.

It only works once.

Might be amusing to you to check out some of Jim's past games.  I haven't looked at all of them, but recall that quote I referenced, where he said he realized he'd never be able to do anything cool as Scum again?  Poor guy apparently attracts -crazymuch- amounts of especially new player attention.  Without fail, or nearly so.  If you can draw that off of him, he's surely going to love you for it, even if you hate it yourself.

I'll have to disagree that it only works once. There are epic people--and their worth is mostly determined by what people see; now, most people don't do metaknowledge and from what I recall, all those where Jim was early targeted was because he played extremely well as opposed to everyone else. The common reason on why you target people.

Though...something that supports that argument of yours is that I never get anyone picking on me. I'm not a juicy target, guys? :(

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Game Over!
Post by: Imp on December 24, 2013, 03:42:16 am

Quote from: Superblackcat on December 24, 2013, 03:37:07 am

Why thank you...
NOW WHY DID BOTH OF YOU GUYS DROP DEAD! D1 and D2 ARGHHH! >: C :P

Quote

SBC, Scumchat, reply #105: Wow! JUST DIE! WOW! JUST GET LYNCHED!

Err, because I was given an order by my leader?

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Game Over!
Post by: Imp on December 24, 2013, 03:43:27 am

Quote from: Tiruin on December 24, 2013, 03:39:43 am

Though...something that supports that argument of yours is that I never get anyone picking on me. I'm not a juicy target, guys? :(

You were one of my three choices to pick who to kill first between, Tiruin, if that makes you feel better?

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Game Over!
Post by: Superblackcat on December 24, 2013, 04:30:15 am

I was just cursing your dead body Imp!

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Game Over!
Post by: Tiruin on December 24, 2013, 05:59:45 am

Quote from: Imp on December 24, 2013, 03:42:16 am

Quote from: Superblackcat on December 24, 2013, 03:37:07 am

Why thank you...
NOW WHY DID BOTH OF YOU GUYS DROP DEAD! D1 and D2 ARGHHH! >: C :P

Quote

SBC, Scumchat, reply #105: Wow! JUST DIE! WOW! JUST GET LYNCHED!

Err, because I was given an order by my leader?

xD
Ooooh, countered well.

Quote from: Imp on December 24, 2013, 03:43:27 am

Quote from: Tiruin on December 24, 2013, 03:39:43 am

Though...something that supports that argument of yours is that I never get anyone picking on me. I'm not a juicy target, guys? :(

You were one of my three choices to pick who to kill first between, Tiruin, if that makes you feel better?

It does! :D I feel wanted!
^{Then dead.}

Still, looking forward to the other Mafias? What say y'all about joining the rest? Say, Iron Diadem? (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=134482.0)
That's a link, by the way, to that thread. :3

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Game Over!
Post by: Imp on December 24, 2013, 06:44:22 am

Quote from: Tiruin on December 24, 2013, 05:59:45 am

Still, looking forward to the other Mafias? What say y'all about joining the rest? Say, Iron Diadem? (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=134482.0)
That's a link, by the way, to that thread. :3

eeeeeek, don't get that game started too soon, or I'll definitely have to bow out!  Life still chaos and all.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Game Over!
Post by: Tiruin on December 24, 2013, 07:28:02 am

Silly Imp, that game only starts when Vector says it'll start (ie After Jan 1st at best, ~2nd week of January or so, expected). :))

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Game Over!
Post by: Leafsnail on December 24, 2013, 07:42:53 am

Hivemind may have worked as a claim if town were in a position where they had to lynch dopps.  However with two doppelgangers already dead a Hivemind presents a much greater threat than the last remaining mafia member.

That said I think SBC's position on day 3 was basically unwinnable, so I don't really blame him for giving up.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Day 3 brings death and release
Post by: Toaster on December 24, 2013, 09:42:54 am

Quote from: Superblackcat on December 24, 2013, 03:12:50 am

Quote from: Toaster on December 23, 2013, 10:11:47 pm

SBC:  Remember this?

Quote from: Toaster on December 20, 2013, 01:18:26 pm

Makeinu: I see a possible explanation for the "two shields" bit, but I'm not going to say what it is until Mr. Cat comes forward and corrects his claim.

The correct answer was "Alien Survivor" with a natural mind shield.  If you had claimed that, not only would I have bought it at first, I would have tried to help you win.

Toaster, I do remember, I was considering it... But sadly, I hesitated too long. Also, I felt that if I claimed Survivor, and didn't initially, I would've been completely killed.

By claiming Hivemind, I have a reason to lie the first time, by claiming Survivor, no reason to lie.

Survivor is typically a bit anti-town, since they want the game to end quickly and siding with the scum team is usually faster.  This game, though, the dopp team was in deep trouble so a survivor working with the town was totally a real thing.  Plus (if you actually were a survivor), if your shield had been blown N2 the dopp team would have known you weren't human anyway.

It's one of those things that will come with practice.

Quote from: Imp on December 24, 2013, 02:33:17 am

Everyone, about makeinu:  I was floored that any of you trusted makeinu after his D1 capers.  I couldn't see any reason why -any- of you would accept that -anyone- would trust him in a PM.  I couldn't imagine trusting him myself.  Given that he approached Jim with some form of 'I inspected you and know your role' and that role was true, I can see why Jim would be most cooperative.  But the rest of you?  Wowsers.

I've seen this happen before (most recently, Magic Mafia) where a scum team member will give someone way too much grief for a really minor offense, then die shortly afterward.  After reviewing the actions of the dead scum, that person they targeted suddenly looks much more not-scum.

After he broke the tie D2 to Imp, I was totally convinced he was town.  As I said to Makeinu...

Quote from: Toaster on December 19, 2013, 02:02:29 pm

As far as I can tell, you're the towniest townman that ever towned the towny seas at this point

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Game Over!
Post by: makeinu on December 24, 2013, 10:26:41 am

Quote from: Leafsnail on December 24, 2013, 07:42:53 am

Hivemind may have worked as a claim if town were in a position where they had to lynch dopps.  However with two doppelgangers already dead a Hivemind presents a much greater threat than the last remaining mafia member.

That said I think SBC's position on day 3 was basically unwinnable, so I don't really blame him for giving up.

I don't either. Thinking about it last night, his best case scenario, absolute best case, he'd have come up against the Caz/Jim combo at the end. Even if he'd survived that long, and he probably wouldn't have, there was no way to break that.

I said it before, and I'll say it again: I've never seen a game where D3 dawned with two successful scum lynches and no scum night kills. Attribute it to whatever you like, that's just phenomenal.

Quote from: Toaster on December 24, 2013, 09:42:54 am

As I said to Makeinu...

Quote from: Toaster on December 19, 2013, 02:02:29 pm

As far as I can tell, you're the towniest townman that ever towned the towny seas at this point

He really said that...

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Game Over!
Post by: Persus13 on December 24, 2013, 10:45:57 am

Has anyone else seen a better game for town?

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Game Over!
Post by: Mephansteras on December 24, 2013, 10:56:57 am

Personally, SBC, I think you should have stuck with Vanilla Townie with a Mind shield as your fakeclaim. With both Detective and Agent in the game to *prove* your claim, you could have gotten much further while people struggled to determine what was going on.

With the mind shield you were immune to both the Mind Stealer and the Psychic Warden, and at that point in the game the Military Scientist, Intelligence Scientist, and Observant Guard were all dead. Those were the only roles that even had a chance of directly threatening you and the Intelligence Scientist's tech choice wasn't actually a threat.

In your place I would have killed ToonyMan N3 in order to mess up town's ability to use his blocks to prove that someone didn't do the night kill. That would leave Tiruin and Toaster the most likely lynch candidates since they were unproven. N4 I'd probably kill Jim, since his abduction ability was so powerful.

At that point...it would depend on what people were doing and what they were thinking.

Victory given the situation Day 3 would be a long shot no matter what, but this would have given you the best shot of whittling down town and causing them to mislynch people. Eventually they'd probably determine that you were a dopp leader and lynch you, but I don't think any fake claim would serve better. Eventually, if they use their powers and deduction correctly, they'd be able to clear pretty much everyone else, but the power of doubt is very strong. People tend to trust Agent/Detective results much more than the possibility that there is the one role in the game that's going to circumvent those powers.

Overall, if you're going to fake claim in a game with open roles, make sure you know the consequences of the role you're thinking of fake claiming as. A fake claim is only as useful as its ability to mask what you are. If there are obvious flaws in your claim, either because you can be shown to be lying due to how that role works or because that role is dangerous to town, all you're doing is making your situation worse. Better to be suspected scum by your actions than proven dangerous or a liar.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Game Over!
Post by: makeinu on December 24, 2013, 11:09:42 am

Persus was still alive.

Question: if the Observant Guard is guarding someone, and attacked at night, he does not get the warning out, right?

If so, the best N3 kill would've been Persus. Then he really would've been beyond detection.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Game Over!
Post by: Persus13 on December 24, 2013, 11:23:59 am

Killing me N2 might have been a good strategy.

Quote from: Mephansteras on December 24, 2013, 10:56:57 am

The Intelligence Scientist's tech choice wasn't actually a threat. 

So your saying that the Intelligent Scientist's tech choice wasn't...
(puts on sunglasses)
...intelligent.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Game Over!
Post by: Mephansteras on December 24, 2013, 11:51:54 am

Quote from: makeinu on December 24, 2013, 11:09:42 am

Persus was still alive.

Question: if the Observant Guard is guarding someone, and attacked at night, he does not get the warning out, right?

If so, the best N3 kill would've been Persus. Then he really would've been beyond detection.

Ah, you're right. I was looking at the wrong line on my spreadsheet.

But you are correct, a Guard's abilities don't trigger if they're the target.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Game Over!
Post by: Tiruin on December 24, 2013, 12:41:34 pm

Quote from: Persus13 on December 24, 2013, 11:23:59 am

Killing me N2 might have been a good strategy.

Quote from: Mephansteras on December 24, 2013, 10:56:57 am

The Intelligence Scientist's tech choice wasn't actually a threat. 

So your saying that the Intelligent Scientist's tech choice wasn't...
(puts on sunglasses)
...intelligent.

/me shoots Persus.
 :I

Well that, and I gave him advice on his choices.

Quote from: Tiruin

[Long silly stuff on why we trust each other]

Hmm, anyway, I'm guessing you're a Intel Scientist, huh. On your other choices...

Quote

Snooper bot: This little bug-bot can trail another player at night and see where they go (if anywhere).
Advanced Tracking Devices: These devices are planted on players during the day. Once planted they show where the tracked individual is. If the player being tracked is killed, the device is lost. The Scientist starts with 2 devices and can create more devices by spending two nights working to build one.

> Right now, you're a permanent watcher.
> I've no idea if the Snooper is reusable (would be darn glad if it was because then you'd be a permanent Tracker)
> The ATD seems a lot better given how you can plant these at the daytime, and given no obvious limit, you can plant in D1 and checkity check. :>

..Yeah you should've gone with the ATD for its efficiency. :P

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Game Over!
Post by: Superblackcat on December 24, 2013, 04:11:53 pm

Well....

I blew that in IRC Meph :>

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Game Over!
Post by: Urist Imiknorris on December 24, 2013, 06:00:23 pm

The Advanced Tracking Devices pretty much won Paranormal 20 for town.

Title: Re: Paranormal 23 - Game Over!
Post by: Leafsnail on December 24, 2013, 06:45:38 pm

The ATDs seem to be clearly the best choice for a townie (assuming you don't prematurely use your bots on the lynch targets you'll basically always end up with more information than you would with the snooper bot for at least the first three nights).  The cameras are possibly more useful for a doppelganger, but it makes it harder to fakeclaim because it's difficult to justify taking them as town.