Watching. I'm too new to IC.Why don't you join instead?
I'm currently in a bastard mod game and a regular game, and going to run a semi-open game in the near future. But what the hell, I'll in. Let's see if I can avoid a first day lynchWatching. I'm too new to IC.Why don't you join instead?
Watching. I take it I'm too new to IC?No, if you've got experience enough to run a game, I'd say you've enough experience to IC. Jim's call, really.
I am watching should I IC? this.
Watching. I take it I'm too new to IC?
I think I should join this. I'm definitely still a beginner.A beginner you may be, but you did really well in the last bm. I look forward to playing with you in yet another game of mafia.
If you need an Ic and don't have enough spots, I'll be glad to be one.
I think you're too green, but if your patience, skill, and experience can be vouched for by others then I will change my mind.
Everyone, speak your minds on what you think of me!I'd like to, but I'm just too new to this sub-forum to really know that much about anyone.
I'm in a few other games, but they are going really slowly. I think I'll be in this one. Also, I want to be an IC if Jim Groovester approves. I've learned quite a bit since I started playing 3-4 months ago.I agree with Jim that you're too green. Jim is a pretty good judge, and you haven't been able to survive past D2 in a game yet.
Who are you again?I think you're too green, but if your patience, skill, and experience can be vouched for by others then I will change my mind.
Everyone, speak your minds on what you think of me!
I...am able once more. Forgive me for my absence. Things have taken a toll on me in the recent days.
In as IC. Unless Shakerag wants to instead.
Everyone: You are the jailkeeper, and the cop has claimed and been proven right. Do you protect them or no?By "proven right", I assume you mean that they outed a scum, and said scum was lynched? In that case, there's only one scum left.
Everyone: You are the jailkeeper, and the cop has claimed and been proven right. Do you protect them or no?
Question to everyone: What would be your preferred alignment, town or scum. Why?Town, because I would no doubt be terrible at scum. First game and all that, and I'm not a big believer in 'beginner's luck'.
Graknorke: So this is your first game? If someone told you that they were the cop, would you believe them? What if they successfully declared someone as scum? Why?I wouldn't believe them if they just claimed it, and acurately declaring someone scum doesn't necessarily make them look good, since if they were the cop it's unlikely that they'd be able to investigate one of the scum in the first couple of nights.
Question to everyone: What would be your preferred role? Why?Well the cop is useful before anyone knows who the scum are, but after there's a good idea of who's what, the jailkeeper would be far more useful, being able to roleblock/doctor people.
Alright, PFP, but good game to everyone in the game. I'll try to get questions in tomorrow morning, otherwise definitely tomorrow afternoon. Life is being life right now.It depends on the situation. I may have other things I'm following up on, and if I strongly suspect someone of being scum (alliteration), I may block him to prevent him from carrying out a kill.
Everyone: You are the jailkeeper, and the cop has claimed and been proven right. Do you protect them or no?
Question to everyone: What would be your preferred alignment, town or scum. Why?Scum, because I find it more fun. Now what's the point of this question?
Persus13: A player is lurking, and someone points it out after only a day, and votes them. How would you view such an action? Why?This depends on the situation. I also assume you mean real-time days and that I'm town. What was the lurker doing prior to lurking? Is he currently voting anyone? Is the vote on the lurker a pressure vote or a lynch vote? If a lynch vote, is it solely because of lurking or are their other reasons? Does the person voting have better uses for their vote? All these questions would determine what I would do. If it was a pressure vote, I'd wouldn't care that much. If it was a lynch vote, I'd probably view that as suspicious.
Question to everyone: What would be your preferred role? Why?A role that gives me something to do at night. Because it is more fun.
Okay so, I really don't recognise most of you people. Apart from darkpaladin, Tiruin, and mastahcheese I've never interacted with the players here before. That means I have no idea what you're like. So... hi.Well, you probably don't know me as well because I mainly frequent the RTD and Mafia boards. Anyway, you look like you're making a good start, but a follow-up question:
I'll wait for more people to answer the questions before I ask anything though. 4 is more than enough to be waiting on.
...You aren't serious right? :SYou'll never know.
All right, let's find us some scum.Town, because I have to work for information.Everyone: You are the jailkeeper, and the cop has claimed and been proven right. Do you protect them or no?By "proven right", I assume you mean that they outed a scum, and said scum was lynched? In that case, there's only one scum left.
I would not protect them, instead, I would target whoever I believe to be most likely to be the remaining scum. If nobody dies in the night, then odds are I've found either the scum, or their target, and I'd go from there.
Question to everyone: What would be your preferred alignment, town or scum. Why?
Solymr: Day 2, you're a vanilla townsmen. Another vanilla townie was lynched the day before, and another was killed in the night. The one that was lynched was a policy lynch, and the one killed in the night failed to provide any leads. Where do you feel would be the next logical step in making sense of the situation? Why?
Graknorke: So this is your first game? If someone told you that they were the cop, would you believe them? What if they successfully declared someone as scum? Why?
4maskwolf: You are the mafia rolecop, and you've identified the Jailkeeper. The Jailkeeper has been making a strong case against you during the day. Do you kill him, to eliminate the powerrole? Or do you leave him, as his death might leave implications? Why?
LARD: So this is also your first game? Let's say you're scum. Someone has been attacking you for suspected scummyness. Would you kill them in the night? Why or why not?
darkpaladin109: A person is lynched after getting 4 votes on him. Of which of the voters would you feel is most suspicious, based simply off of the order in which they voted? Why?
TheDarkStar: Which would you view as more scummy, when someone is lynched because someone voted them, breaking a tiebreaker, or because someone withdrew their vote, and ending a tiebreaker? Why?
Persus13: A player is lurking, and someone points it out after only a day, and votes them. How would you view such an action? Why?
Tiruin: You're scum. Your scumbuddy happened to draw some suspicion due to some of their behavior, but not enough to get lynched. Would they be any particular type of person you'd try to kill in the night at this point? Why? How would you proceed for the next day? Why?
Question to everyone: What would be your preferred role? Why?
I think that's enough questions. For now.
4maskwolf:Hello friendly neighborhood IC!
Quote from: 4maskwolf on February 26, 2014, 11:56:32 pm
Alright, PFP, but good game to everyone in the game. I'll try to get questions in tomorrow morning, otherwise definitely tomorrow afternoon. Life is being life right now.
Everyone: You are the jailkeeper, and the cop has claimed and been proven right. Do you protect them or no?
It depends on the situation. I may have other things I'm following up on, and if I strongly suspect someone of being scum (alliteration), I may block him to prevent him from carrying out a kill.
Now, why are you asking one question to everybody? How do you plan to follow this question up to each person, and why only ask one question to everybody instead of multiple questions.
Hello friendly neighborhood IC!Not asking everyone a question is perfectly fine. I'd actually advise you not to ask a question to everyone unless you think you can handle 8 different conversations with people for a lengthy period. Instead, ask specific questions to several different players, with each question tailored to the player, and follow up and scumhunt them. If you ask a question and then can't follow up the answer, there's not really a point in asking it.
I posted a single question because I am so busy right now. I'm slipping this post in between sleep and school, but if I don't ask everyone a question that's why.
Persus: You are a vanilla scum, and one player has a strong case against you. The lynch eventually goes to your teammate, however. As the only scum left, against 4 town, who do you kill?
a follow-up question:I would be more inclined to believe the second person, and think that the first was scum, bussing their teammate. Claiming cop in a situation like that would draw attention, so I don't think scum would do that, and I can't think of a reason why a vanilla townie or jailer would lie about that.
If one person claims cop and says they inspected some and found they were scum, and then another person claimed and said that they were the cop, what would your reaction be?
Graknorke: Hi! It's always great to have new players! So tell me, how do you plan on playing mafia: lurking, highly active, somewhat active, etc.I imagine that, given timezones, it'll probably have to be more long posts about everything rather than being able to be on at peak-times with the frequent, shorter back-and-forth posts. But that's not so much of a hindrance, since we're on a forum and all.
Everyone: You are the jailkeeper, and the cop has claimed and been proven right. Do you protect them or no?I'd try to figure out if he said anything that could point to him being a scum, then decide on what to do.
Question to everyone: What would be your preferred alignment, town or scum. Why?1. Town, because I'm still new and would no doubt be bad at being a scum.
darkpaladin109: A person is lynched after getting 4 votes on him. Of which of the voters would you feel is most suspicious, based simply off of the order in which they voted? Why?
Question to everyone: What would be your preferred role? Why?
Question for everyone; someone is pushing you hard, and someone in turn is attacking them. By the end of the day, it ends up being a different townie who gets lynched. You are protected during the night by the gaoler, and no night kill is made, meaning that you were the NK target. Which out of the person attacking you and the one attacking him is scum, and is the other likely to be the gaoler?Another hard question to answer, but I'd think the person attacking me would be the scum, while the person attacking him would be the jailer.
So, mastahcheese, [1] you seem pretty sure that these questions will lure out scum in some way. Personally, I don't see how hypotheticals will ever catch anyone out. They could easily just say "well that's only what I said in that situation, not the rest of the time" or perhaps the classic "you can't know until you're actually in that position". So, how do you expect your questions to actually prove - or even imply - anything?[1] The hypotheticals themselves, to me, are more of a catalyst to conversation, than a means to catch scum in and of themselves. Sometimes, they're useful, but mostly I just use them to start something more meaningful.
Question for everyone; [2] someone is pushing you hard, and someone in turn is attacking them. By the end of the day, it ends up being a different townie who gets lynched. You are protected during the night by the gaoler, and no night kill is made, meaning that you were the NK target. Which out of the person attacking you and the one attacking him is scum, and is the other likely to be the gaoler?
Mastah: You are a scum rolecop, and there are 5 town left, without a scum partner. The three of the town joined forces to lynch your scumpartner: which one of those three do you kill. There is a cop in the game, but you haven't found them.That sounds oddly familiar, maybe the start of the last BM? If I were in those shoes, I'd probably not kill any of the three. I'd go after someone who'd been rather outside of the situation, to keep people guessing for as long as possible, and try to sow some discord, and break up the little treaty they had going, to make it easier for me. Go for the long haul.
All these questions mastahcheese, I have to wonder, how did you decide who to ask what?Honestly? I decide randomly. The reason I asked some many question is because, looking back on other games I played, I usually ask about 2-4 questions before having something to go after, so I figured if I let loose with a bunch of questions, it would give me more information faster.
This is an interesting answer, if I say so myself. While you technically answered the question, you failed to actually give an information at all.Everyone: You are the jailkeeper, and the cop has claimed and been proven right. Do you protect them or no?I'd try to figure out if he said anything that could point to him being a scum, then decide on what to do.
Mastahcheese:[1] It gives me something to cross check later. If people are in a role they enjoy, it would be logical to conclude that they would put more effort into playing, as they have more invested in it. It can help, particularly later on.Question to everyone: What would be your preferred alignment, town or scum. Why?Scum, because I find it more fun. [1] Now what's the point of this question?Persus13: A player is lurking, and someone points it out after only a day, and votes them. How would you view such an action? Why?This depends on the situation. I also assume you mean real-time days and that I'm town. [2] What was the lurker doing prior to lurking? [3] Is he currently voting anyone? [4] Is the vote on the lurker a pressure vote or a lynch vote? [5] If a lynch vote, is it solely because of lurking or are their other reasons? [6] Does the person voting have better uses for their vote? All these questions would determine what I would do. If it was a pressure vote, I'd wouldn't care that much. If it was a lynch vote, I'd probably view that as suspicious.Question to everyone: What would be your preferred role? Why?[7] A role that gives me something to do at night. Because it is more fun.
mastah:I find this hilarious. Also I'm assuming that you're posting from your phone again because you aren't quoting. Luckily I remembered what I asked you so I don't mind this time. You can say PfP so people know you're using a phone, otherwise people like me will get on you for it a lot.
You just ninja'd me.
mastahcheese:What about someone who puts their vote on the lurker right before the Day's end? Would you view this as more or less scummy than the ones who point it out, but don't vote?
And answering your specific question to me, even if it were a policy lynch there would still be some kind of lead I could start an investigation from. People who point to lurkers/liars without voting them would be first on the suspicion list.
So I take it from your answers that you'd dislike being scum, for the reason that you'd be bad at it? If you had to be scum, what do you think you'd find most interesting about it?Not necessarily that I'd be bad at it. I've made a bunch of slip ups already without the added pressure of having to be an antagonist. But the extra pressure certainly wouldn't help.
I'm sorry, what is this "gaoler"?Sorry, jailer. It's apparently not spelled that way outside of the UK, Ireland, and Australia though. I'll have to keep that in mind.
darkpaladin109Good point there. If there were things that could point them to scum, I'd vote for them to get linched, in case I was correct. If there was nothing to point towards them being scum, I'd protect them.This is an interesting answer, if I say so myself. While you technically answered the question, you failed to actually give an information at all.Everyone: You are the jailkeeper, and the cop has claimed and been proven right. Do you protect them or no?I'd try to figure out if he said anything that could point to him being a scum, then decide on what to do.
If there are things that could point to them being scum, what would you do?
If there are no such things, then what would you do?
And why is it that you are questioning my methods of hunting scum, before even making an attempt yourself?Because I have very little idea what I should be looking for or asking. I wasn't doubting you, just wanting an answer.
Everyone: You are the jailkeeper, and the cop has claimed and been proven right. Do you protect them or no?
Question to everyone: What would be your preferred alignment, town or scum. Why?
TheDarkStar: Which would you view as more scummy, when someone is lynched because someone voted them, breaking a tiebreaker, or because someone withdrew their vote, and ending a tiebreaker? Why?
LARD: Your response to 4maskwolf is an example of what we call WIFOM (Wine In Front Of Me). Your reasoning is based on the idea that you would surely block the cop, and the scum would think that, but precisely because of this reasoning, they may go after the cop anyway. Secondly, the way this setup works, is that there are three possible setups. Only 1 has both the cop and the jailkeeper. So the scum do not necessarily know if the jailkeeper exists, and would likely go after the cop, as if they did and got blocked, they know there is a jailkeeper, where if they went after the cop and didn't get blocked, they would have killed the cop.
Also, you didn't answer my question.
Hello all, I'm your friendly IC here. The goal of this game for town is to find the scum. That means asking questions, following up on those questions, and scumhunting people in order to figure out who is scum and who is town. If you're are scum, the goal of the game is to get town to lynch people that aren't you. That means asking questions, following up on those questions, and scumhunting people.
Assume it replaced by the following hypothetical question:
There are 4 players left including you, and one scum has been lynched so far. Each of you has been , for whatever reason, trying particularly hard to push one other, creating a loop of accusation. Nobody shifts from their view and there is a no-lynch tie. During the night, the player who you were neither voting for nor voted for you is hit by the NK. Does this change your opinion on who the traitor is or do you stick with your previous vote (the player who was voting for the now-dead one)?
If the cop claimed and was proven right, I would not protect him. The mafia would assume I would and attack somebody else. But this is counterproductive, because the mafia see how we all respond and whoever they think is the jailkeeper, they now get to see how they respond. 4maskwolf, Why would you ask such and obviously scum benefiting question?Gamestarter question, LARD, and going after me for it is an example of scumhunting. You found something fishy, you pursued it. There's no problem with that.
4maskwolfI think that much of the fun I derive from the game is the thrill of the unknown, yes. Also, Unvote Cheese.
Well, the "cop getting you killed" bit was you cracking under pressure. Although you jumped in to a bad situation, so I can't blame you.
So would you say that the fun of this game is in trying to obtain information?Mastah: You are a scum rolecop, and there are 5 town left, without a scum partner. The three of the town joined forces to lynch your scumpartner: which one of those three do you kill. There is a cop in the game, but you haven't found them.That sounds oddly familiar, maybe the start of the last BM? If I were in those shoes, I'd probably not kill any of the three. I'd go after someone who'd been rather outside of the situation, to keep people guessing for as long as possible, and try to sow some discord, and break up the little treaty they had going, to make it easier for me. Go for the long haul.
You wouldn't know if they tried to nk you, I think. I don't know, it's never happened to me.Graknorke: Hi! It's always great to have new players! So tell me, how do you plan on playing mafia: lurking, highly active, somewhat active, etc.I imagine that, given timezones, it'll probably have to be more long posts about everything rather than being able to be on at peak-times with the frequent, shorter back-and-forth posts. But that's not so much of a hindrance, since we're on a forum and all.
Question for everyone; someone is pushing you hard, and someone in turn is attacking them. By the end of the day, it ends up being a different townie who gets lynched. You are protected during the night by the gaoler, and no night kill is made, meaning that you were the NK target. Which out of the person attacking you and the one attacking him is scum, and is the other likely to be the gaoler?
Everyone Ambiguous answers, are they scummy?
P.S. Celebrate with me, for I have learned to quote!
Question to everyone: What would be your preferred role? Why?
Questions:
4maskwolf, I know I have been going after you a bit, what was your intent with that jailkeeper question. I want to know what the reasoning is behind it, just a game starter question, or did you hope to get useful information?
LARD: You're another new guy. Do you think that it's a major scumtell to answer unimportant questions vaguely, even if there is more explained later?
Graknorke: It's your first game. What do you think is the most important thing to look for to find scum?Efforts to be unnoticed are what I'd be looking out for the most. I'm not a big fan of the policy some players having of lynching somebody just for lurking, but when somebody is clearly making an active attempt to stay out of scrutiny, it seems like something scum would do. I've read through a few of the BM games, but probably the most striking out of the ones I read was actually the first, when I realised I'd forgotten about everybody apart from the 3 that were slinging mud at each other.
I can't entirely agree there. Answering in a way that appears to be without thought could also just be a way to try and brush off the question and make it seem unimportant. Avoiding being in the spotlight like that is a big scumtell.LARD: You're another new guy. Do you think that it's a major scumtell to answer unimportant questions vaguely, even if there is more explained later?It isn't all that scummy, because it just shows that the answerer doesn't think the question merit's much thought.
Okay. I have two things to say:Questions:
4maskwolf, I know I have been going after you a bit, what was your intent with that jailkeeper question. I want to know what the reasoning is behind it, just a game starter question, or did you hope to get useful information?
This was a bit of a trap for you,4maskwolf because I gave you a way to escape my question, namely the gamestarter excuse. The fact that you used it shows that you neither thought very long about your response, nor had an original answer of your own. That is making me even more suspicious of you. So it was a trap, Not a very mafia-specific trap, but a trap nonetheless.LARD: You're another new guy. Do you think that it's a major scumtell to answer unimportant questions vaguely, even if there is more explained later?
It isn't all that scummy, because it just shows that the answerer doesn't think the question merit's much thought. If they clarify themselves later on, that is scummy because they are giving a rehearsed answer and not the impulsive one the question was aiming for.
Graknorke:But is there really so much difference between a nolynch vote and the absense of a vote? Both lead to the same result, most of the time.
It really depends on the circumstances. Day one: nolynch vote, there is no reason to not lynch. However, there are many instances where the risk of lynching town is higher than the reward of lynching scum, and a nolynch vote can avoid that consequence. Total lack of a vote from a player is highly suspicious, particularly during the RVS.
Now, In your PPE, you say that avoiding the spotlight is considered a major scumtell. However, the questions specifically asks about an UNIMPORTANT question. Is it still a scumtell if they give a very brief answer to an irrelevant question?Really it's up to the person asking the question how important it is. Unless the person asking the question is being openly antagonistic and asking pointless questions, I don't imagine that they'd ask questions without any reason whatsoever. And if you are so sure it's irrelevant, at least explain why you think that rather than just brushing the question off.
Why would they necessarily be bussing their teammates? Maybe they're trying to get a town player lynched so they can win?a follow-up question:I would be more inclined to believe the second person, and think that the first was scum, bussing their teammate. Claiming cop in a situation like that would draw attention, so I don't think scum would do that, and I can't think of a reason why a vanilla townie or jailer would lie about that.
If one person claims cop and says they inspected some and found they were scum, and then another person claimed and said that they were the cop, what would your reaction be?
PPE:There's only one way to find scum, and that's by getting other players to talk. The best way to do this is by asking Mafia-related questions, to not only get other players to talk, but to get information or pressure on them. The scum have to keep up their town façade, and if you pressure and probe and question right, you can get that façade to slip. That is IC advice, and you can trust it 100%.
Persus13; you - like mastahcheese - seem to think it's important that your questions are answered. What do you hope to glean from these seemingly irrelevant questions? I don't think it particularly matters what Mafia LARD is experienced with.
You have done fairly well answering questions, but this one you need to answer a little more clearly.Everyone: You are the jailkeeper, and the cop has claimed and been proven right. Do you protect them or no?I'd try to figure out if he said anything that could point to him being a scum, then decide on what to do.
Persus13[4] That is something I have no problem with, as I've done that myself in the past.Mastahcheese:[1] It gives me something to cross check later. If people are in a role they enjoy, it would be logical to conclude that they would put more effort into playing, as they have more invested in it. It can help, particularly later on.Question to everyone: What would be your preferred alignment, town or scum. Why?Scum, because I find it more fun. [1] Now what's the point of this question?Persus13: A player is lurking, and someone points it out after only a day, and votes them. How would you view such an action? Why?This depends on the situation. I also assume you mean real-time days and that I'm town. [2] What was the lurker doing prior to lurking? [3] Is he currently voting anyone? [4] Is the vote on the lurker a pressure vote or a lynch vote? [5] If a lynch vote, is it solely because of lurking or are their other reasons? [6] Does the person voting have better uses for their vote? All these questions would determine what I would do. If it was a pressure vote, I'd wouldn't care that much. If it was a lynch vote, I'd probably view that as suspicious.Question to everyone: What would be your preferred role? Why?[7] A role that gives me something to do at night. Because it is more fun.
[2-6] Yes, I meant 1 RL day, with you as town. I like the litany of counter-questions. I'll keep note of that.
[2] Let's say he answered a couple of RVS questions, but nothing else so far.
[3] Let's say no.
[4] Hmm, let's say they tell the person to get in here, a vote them, but it's not clear what the tone is.
[5] Let's say it's just for lurking, and lacking better lead.
[6] Hmm, let's say there are some arguments going on that they could join in on, but choose not to.
[7] So I guess a scum rolecop would be your top choice?
Assume it replaced by the following hypothetical question:My primary target would be myself. Scum should best avoid targeting people who have you as their primary target, or ones you are scumhunting. If I was town or scum, I would go after the person who suspected me, given the fact that they were being attacked by the dead player.
There are 4 players left including you, and one scum has been lynched so far. Each of you has been , for whatever reason, trying particularly hard to push one other, creating a loop of accusation. Nobody shifts from their view and there is a no-lynch tie. During the night, the player who you were neither voting for nor voted for you is hit by the NK. Does this change your opinion on who the traitor is or do you stick with your previous vote (the player who was voting for the now-dead one)?
Persus13 I'm going to go out on a limb a bit for a newby and start pressuring you.Great. Pressuring people is a great first step. Maybe next time you should vote the person you are trying to pressure to put a little bit more on.
I do want to know why your first post started with:The reason I am acting as a sort of mentor/guide role, is because that's my job for this game. To get you used to Mafia, or at least Bay12 Mafia. While I am a player in this game, I also am here to act as your guide. When I give you IC advice, I assure you that you can trust it. You may not trust me, but you can trust the advice. This does not neccesarily mean what I say that isn't italics isn't trustworthy, merely that how much you trust in that is up to you.[/i](Those last few sentences in italics were IC advice. From now on, IC advice will be in italics)Hello all, I'm your friendly IC here. The goal of this game for town is to find the scum. That means asking questions, following up on those questions, and scumhunting people in order to figure out who is scum and who is town. If you're are scum, the goal of the game is to get town to lynch people that aren't you. That means asking questions, following up on those questions, and scumhunting people.
It seems to me that you're taking advantage of the fact that we are new and trying to put yourself in a mentor/guide role to us, putting yourself in a great position for a mafia and if you were a townie, a great position to be mafia-killed first. I find that a bit suspicious.
This was a bit of a trap for you,4maskwolf because I gave you a way to escape my question, namely the gamestarter excuse. The fact that you used it shows that you neither thought very long about your response, nor had an original answer of your own. That is making me even more suspicious of you. So it was a trap, Not a very mafia-specific trap, but a trap nonetheless.These two statements contradict each other very nicely. On the one hand you're lashing out at 4mask for not having an answer prepared, and in the next breath you're defending your own vague answers by saying that it's bad to have prepared your answers.
It isn't all that scummy, because it just shows that the answerer doesn't think the question merit's much thought. If they clarify themselves later on, that is scummy because they are giving a rehearsed answer and not the impulsive one the question was aiming for.
TDS: Which is more important as town: to stay alive, or to try and lay the seeds for others to find scum and be killed for it? Why?
TDS, in your answer to 4maskwolf's question, you mentioned the cop asking you to protect them. In that situation, would you also announce that you were the jailkeeper and protecting them, or would you just do it?
Okay. I have two things to say:
One: well played, sir
Two: back to the in-game, I'm not sure what that tells you. Because it was a gamestarter: there was nothing more to it. There was next to no probability that a question I tossed out in the two minutes I had would turn up a scum, but the way people respond to my questions tells me a lot about them. Even though I knew that I wouldn't be able to post for a while afterwards, it is good to get some interaction going.
Now, back to you. First, you try to introduce WIFOM into the answer of a question that was close to yes or no. That I can overlook: it was a beginner mistake, and the question wasn't really that much of a scumhunt. However, for the future, WIFOM usage after day 1, and even sometimes during day one, can be considered a scumtell by some people. Second: you didn't need to say that it was a trap. The point you make seems fair, but you should have/ should now pursue it agressively.
Alright, alright, enough pretending to be an IC.
LARD: You seem to place a lot of weight on the questions having been answered "in the moment" in that last post. However, this is a forum, and people can take as long as they want to think through their posts. How, if any, would that change your gameplan?
It isn't all that scummy, because it just shows that the answerer doesn't think the question merit's much thought. If they clarify themselves later on, that is scummy because they are giving a rehearsed answer and not the impulsive one the question was aiming for.
All right. I will finish my train of thought on 4maskwolf firsterm...Okay. I have two things to say:
One: well played, sir
Two: back to the in-game, I'm not sure what that tells you. Because it was a gamestarter: there was nothing more to it. There was next to no probability that a question I tossed out in the two minutes I had would turn up a scum, but the way people respond to my questions tells me a lot about them. Even though I knew that I wouldn't be able to post for a while afterwards, it is good to get some interaction going.
Now, back to you. First, you try to introduce WIFOM into the answer of a question that was close to yes or no. That I can overlook: it was a beginner mistake, and the question wasn't really that much of a scumhunt. However, for the future, WIFOM usage after day 1, and even sometimes during day one, can be considered a scumtell by some people. Second: you didn't need to say that it was a trap. The point you make seems fair, but you should have/ should now pursue it agressively.
Alright, alright, enough pretending to be an IC.
LARD: You seem to place a lot of weight on the questions having been answered "in the moment" in that last post. However, this is a forum, and people can take as long as they want to think through their posts. How, if any, would that change your gameplan?
First of all, how politely condensing of you. It's very suspicious as well. For starters you are trying to belittle my opinion by setting yourself as an "IC" above me. Thank you as well for the "well played" it means more to me than you know. [sniff] In all seriousness though, I feel like I have you on the run. You are only throwing rudimentary accusations back at me. I will not be using WIFOM's again, because they are useless. Now 4maskwolf I will pursue it agressively.
As for your question, I believe that the longer you leave an accusation unanswered, the more the opinion will turn against you. Therefore one feels pressured to respond, and when one feels pressure, one acts impulsively. Does that answer your question?
Now as to the more serious slight on my character that Graknorke has made.
The point was not that vagueness was not a scum tell, we had already established that it is. I was saying that for seemingly irrelevant questions, vagueness is less of a scum tell. The point I was making was that correction of oneself, that is scummy. If you had read my words carefully, you would have seen that I accused 4mask of copying my words and not using his own thoughts. They didn't have to be prepared thoughts.
I would however like to eat these words on this one, right here, right now.It isn't all that scummy, because it just shows that the answerer doesn't think the question merit's much thought. If they clarify themselves later on, that is scummy because they are giving a rehearsed answer and not the impulsive one the question was aiming for.
Sorry about the confusion. But I don't want to be accused of contradicting myself every time I clarify myself. If you think that this is scummy, fair enough, but I don't think it merits a big investigation. I would do it whether I was scum or not for the above reason.
But first answers are still more valuable than their clarifications. I hope that is reasonable.
I realize that i will have to clarify myself if people like Graknorke are going to be misinterpreting and casting votes based on their misinterpretations. (I'm not bitter, and I'm glad this game is getting interesting. Cheers. But I'm also not going to keep saying this, so never take me attempting to rip into you as me actually being mad. )
I was considering voting for Graknorke, as he is jumping on me for accusing 4mask, but his concerns are legitimate and I deserve to be pressured for that one.
P.S. If anyone is getting annoyed at typing my username all caps, I won't be offended if you use small letters. I just haven't got around to changing it.
There are 4 players left including you, and one scum has been lynched so far. Each of you has been , for whatever reason, trying particularly hard to push one other, creating a loop of accusation. Nobody shifts from their view and there is a no-lynch tie. During the night, the player who you were neither voting for nor voted for you is hit by the NK. Does this change your opinion on who the traitor is or do you stick with your previous vote (the player who was voting for the now-dead one)?First, I'd wait to see if anyone tried to push blame/suspicion on the one that was voting the NKed target, as it was likely a set-up.
mastahcheese: You have played several games. What do you think is the most important thing to look for to find scum?Well, I've only played 1 game to completion so far. I think the most important thing to look for in finding scum are contradictions, and inherently faulty logic. There are others, but I think those two are the biggest ones I've seen.
Everyone Ambiguous answers, are they scummy?I think so, yes. They give the impression of providing information, while not being helpful, and wasting the time of the person who asked the question.
Everyone: You are the jailkeeper, and the cop has claimed and been proven right. Do you protect them or no?I assume this is by us lynching said person, yes?
All right, let's find us some scum.Such enthusiasm, T-800.
Tiruin: You're scum. Your scumbuddy happened to draw some suspicion due to some of their behavior, but not enough to get lynched. Would they be any particular type of person you'd try to kill in the night at this point? Why? How would you proceed for the next day? Why?When 'at this point' means 'Day', I presume?
Question to everyone: What would be your preferred role? Why?No preference. Why? Because my playstyle doesn't depend on my role--whatever ability exists in said role is but a tool I can work with-sure, my playstyle could conform to how I use said tool, but it has no direct relation to why I have this role nor on why I'd like it.
Tiruin: You are vanilla town, and two players are pushing you pretty hard on day one. One of those players dies N1. Do you believe that the last player is scum?It all depends on the situation and their context of pushing me around. I mean, for all reasons in mind, I could see the discussion this way.
If the cop claimed and was proven right, I would not protect him. The mafia would assume I would and attack somebody else. But this is counterproductive, because the mafia see how we all respond and whoever they think is the jailkeeper, they now get to see how they respond. 4maskwolf, Why would you ask such and obviously scum benefiting question?Note 1: Quote or link the post you're answering. In any game, this speeds up people understanding you 100%! That's really good for everyone. :)
[...]
Like the one I give you now?
Everyone Ambiguous answers, are they scummy?
Give me your shovel. Now. >:I...You aren't serious right? :SYou'll never know.
darkpaladin109 are you having fun? (this one is actually important)Yeah.
darkpaladin109: When do you think it's a good idea to roleclaim and reveal your findings as a rolecop?Yes, but I would first make sure everyone trusts me.
All right. I will finish my train of thought on 4maskwolf firstSo as a quick note: People will also consider giving advice (if snarky or not) in regular games. :)-snip-
First of all, how politely condensing of you. It's very suspicious as well. For starters you are trying to belittle my opinion by setting yourself as an "IC" above me.[...]
I was considering voting for Graknorke, as he is jumping on me for accusing 4mask, but his concerns are legitimate and I deserve to be pressured for that one.You deserve to be pressured...for accusing 4mask? Am I getting this right?
...The affirmative in the second statement is..err, it does not match the question. ^ ^darkpaladin109 are you having fun? (this one is actually important)Yeah.darkpaladin109: When do you think it's a good idea to roleclaim and reveal your findings as a rolecop?Yes, but I would first make sure everyone trusts me.
I dunno if claiming WIFOM for a bunch of answers is a scummy thing to do, but it just doesn't seem like we know without more info. I know you don't like receiving answers that just say, "we can't know" but there you are.Generally when you're town, you shouldn't care about whether you appear scummy. This is a scumtell, and makes me suspicious of you.
Everyone Ambiguous answers, are they scummy?It depends. This one of many things in Mafia are situational.
Persus13: If you were scum, would you target people who suspected you or people who didn't suspect you first?I'd go after people who I thought were good players who were slightly suspicious of scum players, but didn't have one as their primary target. This way, no one gets suspicious that the guy who was actively pursuing me died in the night.
Efforts to be unnoticed are what I'd be looking out for the most. I'm not a big fan of the policy some players having of lynching somebody just for lurking, but when somebody is clearly making an active attempt to stay out of scrutiny, it seems like something scum would do.What do you mean by looking unnoticed? Why do not like policy lynches on lurkers? Who in this game is trying to be unnoticed to you?
First of all, how politely condensing of you. It's very suspicious as well. For starters you are trying to belittle my opinion by setting yourself as an "IC" above me. Thank you as well for the "well played" it means more to me than you know. [sniff] In all seriousness though, I feel like I have you on the run. You are only throwing rudimentary accusations back at me. I will not be using WIFOM's again, because they are useless. Now 4maskwolf I will pursue it agressively.I believe your case on 4maskwolf is making a mountain out of molehill. The fact is that 4maskwolf asked the question as a game starter question, and so stating that fact is a legitimate response.
Now as to the more serious slight on my character that Graknorke has made.Just a friendly reminder that this is a game. While some people may say mean things in this game, it doesn't necessarily mean that they mean them.
Everyone: What is your favorite subject in Mafia? Favorite notion to talk about?Does this mean I can't be snarky? Ah well. I'm fine with being the good cop though.
What do you not understand about Forum Mafia? What about your least favorite notion?
Also, Persus is the better advisor than me but still: If any of you have general questions--don't be afraid to ask!
Hey Persus! I'll play the Snarky Cop and you play the Good Cop as our IC roles, you ok with that?
I was considering voting for Graknorke, as he is jumping on me for accusing 4mask,
If I am scum and somebody is attacking me, I probably will attack them. It looks suspicious and I generally look suspicious when I play these games.Okay, I'm starting to appreciate those gamestarter questions from earlier on.
Everyone: What is your favorite subject in Mafia? Favorite notion to talk about?Favourite 'subject'? I suppose recognising a townvtown fight is a good one, because it can be hard to tell the difference between two townies getting aggravated at each other, and scum trying to get a townie lynched and being called out over it.
What do you not understand about Forum Mafia? What about your least favorite notion?
Graknorke:
[1]Why hello there good chap! Extremely pleased to see you in this quadrant. What brings you to the Mafia board and why did you decide to join up here?
[2]Nextly, how would you discern a scumtell from a towntell? Many people make mistakes, don't you agree?
[3]Also, what is your opinion on metaknowledge?
[4]Lastly, if a person is an IC-for this context only-does it have any...value to you? Will someone who is an IC be different from a player?
Graknorke:Sorry Persus, missed that you asked me a question. I'll answer the one about LARD too because it applies to me.Efforts to be unnoticed are what I'd be looking out for the most. I'm not a big fan of the policy some players having of lynching somebody just for lurking, but when somebody is clearly making an active attempt to stay out of scrutiny, it seems like something scum would do.What do you mean by looking unnoticed? Why do not like policy lynches on lurkers? Who in this game is trying to be unnoticed to you?
Also, was your vote on LARD a pressure vote or a lynch vote?
Everyone Ambiguous answers, are they scummy?Yes.
Question time!I'm not sure if I understood the question because bussing or lynching seem the same to me in this situation. Anyways, I wouldn't bus unless said buddy were in deep shit.
Solymr: If you were scum and your fellow scum were under suspicion, what would you do? Would you bus or lynch?
Make sure that I didn't say anything that would make me seem suspicious?...The affirmative in the second statement is..err, it does not match the question. ^ ^darkpaladin109 are you having fun? (this one is actually important)Yeah.darkpaladin109: When do you think it's a good idea to roleclaim and reveal your findings as a rolecop?Yes, but I would first make sure everyone trusts me.
So you would see a good idea to roleclaim...when everyone trusts you. How will you know of that time?
And could you expound (ie explain more on-) why you explicitly answered the note of a 'rolecop'?
Also do note the general Everyone question I posted earlier, thanks. :)
Sorry I didn't see that earlier.You have done fairly well answering questions, but this one you need to answer a little more clearly.Everyone: You are the jailkeeper, and the cop has claimed and been proven right. Do you protect them or no?I'd try to figure out if he said anything that could point to him being a scum, then decide on what to do.
Also, do you have any reads of who is scum and who is town? If not, how do you plan on getting info?
Everyone: What is your favorite subject in Mafia? Favorite notion to talk about?I don't get what you're trying to ask me here? Care to clarify?
What do you not understand about Forum Mafia? What about your least favorite notion?
It should, I was asking that to you.Graknorke:Sorry Persus, missed that you asked me a question. I'll answer the one about LARD too because it applies to me.Efforts to be unnoticed are what I'd be looking out for the most. I'm not a big fan of the policy some players having of lynching somebody just for lurking, but when somebody is clearly making an active attempt to stay out of scrutiny, it seems like something scum would do.What do you mean by looking unnoticed? Why do not like policy lynches on lurkers? Who in this game is trying to be unnoticed to you?
Also, was your vote on LARD a pressure vote or a lynch vote?
I don't like policy lynches on lurkers because Mafia is a game of numbers, and having a useless townie is still better than not. As far as I'm concerned, lurker policy lynches are more about deterring people from lurking and removing the hassle of having to work out an actual day1 lynch than it is about winning.Yes, but what happens when there are 5 players left, one scum left, and one player has been lurking the entire game. Lurkers are not guaranteed to be town. If you lynch the lurker, there a 20% chance he's scum. If you lynch an active player and he's town, while ignoring the lurker, there's a problem.
The player I'd say most avoiding attention is darkpaladin. He's made a few very short posts with no content in them. Though he might pick up again later and has only been posting like that because of some circumstances or other. Solymr hasn't posted since the very start of the game, but an absence of posts isn't as bad as contentless posts.Good. You said you'd use pressure on players who did that. You going to?
Metaknowledge is using knowledge of how someone's plays town or scum from previous games. For example, I once played a game with a player who was scum and he played D1 by asking lots of questions to one person, and then voting them and savagely attacking them for their responses to his questions. The next game I played with him, he did a similar thing, so I voted and called him out on it (He turned out to be scum). While metaknowldege can be useful, usually players are aware of their meta, and try to mitigate it, so it is not completely reliable.
- Metaknowledge as in? Knowing the possible sutup of the game or what? It's not like Mafia is a roleplaying game, and really having a full understanding of the rules and possible roles and how many mafia members there are and so in is critical in the game actually working.
Persus and Tiruin:If I were scum, I would play to win. However I would not do that by giving bad advice. Everything I say in italics you can trust. What I say outside of italics is up for you to decide.
You promise that if you're scum you won't misdirect us? Or not destroy us too bad?
Tiruin is stating that you answered yes to a question about WHEN you would do something.Make sure that I didn't say anything that would make me seem suspicious?...The affirmative in the second statement is..err, it does not match the question. ^ ^darkpaladin109 are you having fun? (this one is actually important)Yeah.darkpaladin109: When do you think it's a good idea to roleclaim and reveal your findings as a rolecop?Yes, but I would first make sure everyone trusts me.
I answered the question because it was directed to me. Simple as that.
Sorry I didn't see that earlier.You have done fairly well answering questions, but this one you need to answer a little more clearly.Everyone: You are the jailkeeper, and the cop has claimed and been proven right. Do you protect them or no?I'd try to figure out if he said anything that could point to him being a scum, then decide on what to do.
Also, do you have any reads of who is scum and who is town? If not, how do you plan on getting info?
LARD
I believe your name is an acronym of sorts, yes?
AnywaysIf the cop claimed and was proven right, I would not protect him. The mafia would assume I would and attack somebody else. But this is counterproductive, because the mafia see how we all respond and whoever they think is the jailkeeper, they now get to see how they respond. 4maskwolf, Why would you ask such and obviously scum benefiting question?
[...]
Note 2: 'The mafia would assume I would'?
Really now.
The Mafia knows there is a Jailkeeper, huh?Like the one I give you now?
Everyone Ambiguous answers, are they scummy?
At this point, we are considered to have left RVS (Random Vote Stage), since both LARD and Gracknorke appear to have placed lynch votes on targets. At this point you can definitely still ask and answer questions, but the focus should be less on asking hypothetical questions, and more on what's happening in the game, as you have enough information to start making judgments about who is scum and who is town. (Although you don't know if that judgment will be correct)
LARD:I dunno if claiming WIFOM for a bunch of answers is a scummy thing to do, but it just doesn't seem like we know without more info. I know you don't like receiving answers that just say, "we can't know" but there you are.Generally when you're town, you shouldn't care about whether you appear scummy. This is a scumtell, and makes me suspicious of you.
Lard:\First of all, how politely condensing of you. It's very suspicious as well. For starters you are trying to belittle my opinion by setting yourself as an "IC" above me. Thank you as well for the "well played" it means more to me than you know. [sniff] In all seriousness though, I feel like I have you on the run. You are only throwing rudimentary accusations back at me. I will not be using WIFOM's again, because they are useless. Now 4maskwolf I will pursue it agressively.I believe your case on 4maskwolf is making a mountain out of molehill. The fact is that 4maskwolf asked the question as a game starter question, and so stating that fact is a legitimate response.Now as to the more serious slight on my character that Graknorke has made.Just a friendly reminder that this is a game. While some people may say mean things in this game, it doesn't necessarily mean that they mean them.
Metaknowledge is using knowledge of how someone's plays town or scum from previous games. For example, I once played a game with a player who was scum and he played D1 by asking lots of questions to one person, and then voting them and savagely attacking them for their responses to his questions. The next game I played with him, he did a similar thing, so I voted and called him out on it (He turned out to be scum). While metaknowldege can be useful, usually players are aware of their meta, and try to mitigate it, so it is not completely reliable.Oh, right. I imagine that knowing other players' habits would be useful, but only if you're the only one who notices them. Otherwise the behaviour could be covered up or avoided or faked maybe. So, nice to have, but not crucial or even necessarily beneficial to use.
Graknorke:Actually I'm pretty sure that the question was for Tiruin, given where it is in your post. Since we both have a vote on LARD.It should, I was asking that to you.Also, was your vote on LARD a pressure vote or a lynch vote?I'll answer the one about LARD too because it applies to me.
Now, who do you think is scum, and who do you think is town, in this game, right now. If you have no idea, how could you get an idea?
I didn't mean to absolutely ignore lurkers, but they shouldn't be lynched solely for lurking either. Perhaps if they continue to act in an uncooperative manner after being called out on it (Like Org in BM 1). Then it becomes a problem and they are working against the interests of the town.I don't like policy lynches on lurkers because Mafia is a game of numbers, and having a useless townie is still better than not. As far as I'm concerned, lurker policy lynches are more about deterring people from lurking and removing the hassle of having to work out an actual day1 lynch than it is about winning.Yes, but what happens when there are 5 players left, one scum left, and one player has been lurking the entire game. Lurkers are not guaranteed to be town. If you lynch the lurker, there a 20% chance he's scum. If you lynch an active player and he's town, while ignoring the lurker, there's a problem.
Everyone: What is your favorite subject in Mafia? Favorite notion to talk about?
What do you not understand about Forum Mafia? What about your least favorite notion?
darkpaladin109: When do you think it's a good idea to roleclaim and reveal your findings as a rolecop?Yes, but I would first make sure everyone trusts me.
Least favorite notion: Powerless civilians. I find it annoying to have no abilities and so I like power role-heavy games like Paranormal. It's almost as bad as lurking, but other people have said quiet a bit about that.I don't think that a particularly fair view of vanilla townies. The core of Mafia is the social aspect. It would honestly work fine without any night actions at all. An active townie can be far more useful than a cop who barely contributes.
Everyone: What is your favorite subject in Mafia? Favorite notion to talk about?Favorite subject... Like... we're not playing Smstr W/ Love here, are we...
What do you not understand about Forum Mafia? What about your least favorite notion?
If we have left the random vote stage then I will unvote 4maskwolf because it was a pressure vote all along. I think it valuable to a townsperson to make their target think that a pressure vote is a lynch vote, because it adds more pressure. The mountain was a molehill the whole time, it is true. I was merely trying to add pressure with the most aggressive means possible. Sorry if that added confusion to the rest of you.Pressure voting someone is fine, just expect to take some flack for that.
As a town, you do want to worry about not appearing scummy. If you do look suspicious, it allows the real scum to hide behind you.True, but you don't have to worry as much about how to act.
There's a lot of differing thought on metaknowledge, but I agree with this point.Metaknowledge is using knowledge of how someone's plays town or scum from previous games. For example, I once played a game with a player who was scum and he played D1 by asking lots of questions to one person, and then voting them and savagely attacking them for their responses to his questions. The next game I played with him, he did a similar thing, so I voted and called him out on it (He turned out to be scum). While metaknowldege can be useful, usually players are aware of their meta, and try to mitigate it, so it is not completely reliable.Oh, right. I imagine that knowing other players' habits would be useful, but only if you're the only one who notices them. Otherwise the behaviour could be covered up or avoided or faked maybe. So, nice to have, but not crucial or even necessarily beneficial to use.
Oh, my bad, sorry.Graknorke:Actually I'm pretty sure that the question was for Tiruin, given where it is in your post. Since we both have a vote on LARD.It should, I was asking that to you.Also, was your vote on LARD a pressure vote or a lynch vote?I'll answer the one about LARD too because it applies to me.
Ah, okay. If you had to lynch a lurker, what day would be the most optimal for doing so?I didn't mean to absolutely ignore lurkers, but they shouldn't be lynched solely for lurking either. Perhaps if they continue to act in an uncooperative manner after being called out on it (Like Org in BM 1). Then it becomes a problem and they are working against the interests of the town.I don't like policy lynches on lurkers because Mafia is a game of numbers, and having a useless townie is still better than not. As far as I'm concerned, lurker policy lynches are more about deterring people from lurking and removing the hassle of having to work out an actual day1 lynch than it is about winning.Yes, but what happens when there are 5 players left, one scum left, and one player has been lurking the entire game. Lurkers are not guaranteed to be town. If you lynch the lurker, there a 20% chance he's scum. If you lynch an active player and he's town, while ignoring the lurker, there's a problem.
Now, what is the most effective town strategy for day one, in your personal opinion. I'll extend this question to Persus as well, since he's the other IC.D1, the goal is to get information on people and see how they are interacting with people. Then, once the game has progressed, it is an excellent resource to look back on and see what people's interactions were like, in lieu of people's roleflips. The primary goal D1 is, like any other day, to lynch scum though. SO do what you feel needs to be done to achieve that goal.
Everyone: Is there a time to use the FoS, if so, when? What do you believe is the difference between an FoS and a vote, beyond the obvious? Do you believe that the questions asked on day one can help find scum, and why? Would you rather have a power role or a vanilla role, and why?
Everyone: What is your favorite subject in Mafia? Favorite notion to talk about?
What do you not understand about Forum Mafia? What about your least favorite notion?
Mr CheeseThe answer to the two bolded bits are the same. I'm asking to get conversation started, basically. See if people give any sort of answer that flat out makes no sense, that sort of thing. Also in part because I like to know more about people, just as a general curiosity. You also failed to answer the first question, whether you prefer to play as town or scum.Tiruin: You're scum. Your scumbuddy happened to draw some suspicion due to some of their behavior, but not enough to get lynched. Would they be any particular type of person you'd try to kill in the night at this point? Why? How would you proceed for the next day? Why?When 'at this point' means 'Day', I presume?
Well I'd target the investigative voices-those which treat the situation with a generalist attitude. Those of probing hints or curious motive--all due because I am to either Rolecop/kill them. For the next day, I will deliberate with said buddy-point out his flaws, probably give hints on what s/he's to do in that matter, and in the next day I shall prod them on the matter--moreso because its an aid to the person regardless of their role and it helps them learn instead of going all aggressive on them.
Why? My playstyle. I side with benevolence no matter what alignment I am on.
Did you ask that question to learn more about me?Question to everyone: What would be your preferred role? Why?No preference. Why? Because my playstyle doesn't depend on my role--whatever ability exists in said role is but a tool I can work with-sure, my playstyle could conform to how I use said tool, but it has no direct relation to why I have this role nor on why I'd like it.
For me, the role or the wincon doesn't define the player but their [the player's] principles.
Why do you ask?
Everyone: [1] Is there a time to use the FoS, if so, when? [2] What do you believe is the difference between an FoS and a vote, beyond the obvious? [3] Do you believe that the questions asked on day one can help find scum, and why? [4] Would you rather have a power role or a vanilla role, and why?[1] Yes, when you are indicating to someone that you are on to them, and the way that they are acting. Mostly so that they won't ignore you, but without the implications a vote has.
Ah, okay. If you had to lynch a lurker, what day would be the most optimal for doing so?I really don't know. A day1 lynch is important, and it's not really useful if everybody just immediately decided on lynching the lurker, so I don't think day 1. By day 2 though there's already been a day of discussion, a lynch, and (probably) a NK to make decisions over. At that point discussion can sort of continue itself, even without a 'meaningful' lynch. So I suppose day 2.
Everyone: Is there a time to use the FoS, if so, when? What do you believe is the difference between an FoS and a vote, beyond the obvious? Do you believe that the questions asked on day one can help find scum, and why? Would you rather have a power role or a vanilla role, and why?FoS for when you are already voting for someone, and it's an important enough vote that you don't want to instead be making a pressure vote.
A question to Everyone. (Making it huge since people seem to be missing these)Sure, why not.
Would everyone please be so kind as to provide your current reads, now that we are out of RVS?
Everyone: Is there a time to use the FoS, if so, when? What do you believe is the difference between an FoS and a vote, beyond the obvious? Do you believe that the questions asked on day one can help find scum, and why? Would you rather have a power role or a vanilla role, and why?
A question to Everyone. (Making it huge since people seem to be missing these)
Would everyone please be so kind as to provide your current reads, now that we are out of RVS?
If we have left the random vote stage then I will unvote 4maskwolf because it was a pressure vote all along. I think it valuable to a townsperson to make their target think that a pressure vote is a lynch vote, because it adds more pressure. The mountain was a molehill the whole time, it is true. I was merely trying to add pressure with the most aggressive means possible. Sorry if that added confusion to the rest of you.
I have to go now, but I'll tell you now that Graknorke is my next target.
Everyone, how comfortable do you feel with a lynch at this point?
I mean, I think LARD is scum, but at the same time it feels like he hasn't really responded properly to any accusations. I know that it's his fault for being slow or whatever, but I'd kind of like to see what he has to say. Maybe it could clear some things up, at least. 55 hours to go for that.
And another question for Everyone: Ignoring how scummy any individual is, who do you think is likely to be NKd today?
I have my own thoughts but I suppose it would ruin a question like this if I gave an answer to this question right underneath it.
I didn't mean to absolutely ignore lurkers, but they shouldn't be lynched solely for lurking either. Perhaps if they continue to act in an uncooperative manner after being called out on it (Like Org in BM 1). Then it becomes a problem and they are working against the interests of the town.Or, you know, Org in every game he played.
[1] Everyone, how comfortable do you feel with a lynch at this point?[1] Lynching is the only weapon we have to eliminate scum. I'm always comfortable with it.
I mean, I think LARD is scum, but at the same time it feels like he hasn't really responded properly to any accusations. I know that it's his fault for being slow or whatever, but I'd kind of like to see what he has to say. Maybe it could clear some things up, at least. 55 hours to go for that.
And another question for [2] Everyone: Ignoring how scummy any individual is, who do you think is likely to be NKd today?
I have my own thoughts but I suppose it would ruin a question like this if I gave an answer to this question right underneath it.
A question like that would be very benefitting to scum.In what way would it benefit scum? By telling them what people expect to happen? I don't see how that would be helpful.
I would give them an idea of who expected who to be NK'd and allow them to wreak havoc with expectations to watch the results. At least, I think that's how it works.A question like that would be very benefitting to scum.In what way would it benefit scum? By telling them what people expect to happen? I don't see how that would be helpful.
I'm not sure about that. From your answer at least it's pretty similar to mine, because people expect the most aggressive or competent townies to be targeted. Because that would be the best decision they could make. Worst case, they go against what we expect and kill a sub-optimal target. That just leaves town in a better position.I would give them an idea of who expected who to be NK'd and allow them to wreak havoc with expectations to watch the results. At least, I think that's how it works.A question like that would be very benefitting to scum.In what way would it benefit scum? By telling them what people expect to happen? I don't see how that would be helpful.
Fair enough, I'll grant you that one. But in a game with more active players, the scum can use that to attempt to implicate another player. Here, however, you are correct.I'm not sure about that. From your answer at least it's pretty similar to mine, because people expect the most aggressive or competent townies to be targeted. Because that would be the best decision they could make. Worst case, they go against what we expect and kill a sub-optimal target. That just leaves town in a better position.I would give them an idea of who expected who to be NK'd and allow them to wreak havoc with expectations to watch the results. At least, I think that's how it works.A question like that would be very benefitting to scum.In what way would it benefit scum? By telling them what people expect to happen? I don't see how that would be helpful.
Questions first:Don't be so quick to make town judgments on day 1, this is the day when it is easiest for the scum to fool the town. That aside, I will present my reads:
And reads:
4maskwolf: much activity and hunting. Most likely to be town.
Graknorke: also very active. Another good contender for town.
Mastahcheese: isn't asking too many questions but doesn't seem too suspicious.
TDS: quite active. Probable town.
DP: seems like he's trying to avoid answering certain questions and doesn't make himself clear. Slight scum.
LARD: pretty much everything he says points to scum.
The ICs I'll wait until Day2 to get a good read.
A question to Everyone. (Making it huge since people seem to be missing these)Certainly.
Would everyone please be so kind as to provide your current reads, now that we are out of RVS?
Interesting Idea. Most people seem to think a Day 1 lurker lynch is best, but you raise a good counterpoint.Ah, okay. If you had to lynch a lurker, what day would be the most optimal for doing so?I really don't know. A day1 lynch is important, and it's not really useful if everybody just immediately decided on lynching the lurker, so I don't think day 1. By day 2 though there's already been a day of discussion, a lynch, and (probably) a NK to make decisions over. At that point discussion can sort of continue itself, even without a 'meaningful' lynch. So I suppose day 2.
Though I wouldn't could RVS as being over, because LARD still hasn't responded satisfactorily to my pressure vote. I'm honestly quite tempted to leave it as a lynch vote, since he's been sitting on a supposed rebuke for more than 24 hours.RVS more refers to Random Vote Stage, than pressure voting. Random voting is more for the very beginning of the game, when you randomly choose someone to vote and question. To me, your vote on LARD seems more for finding scummy things about him. Aslo, it's the weekend, so usually people don't post as often, so you should likely cut him a little slack.
Persus13 - This one's harder. Since he's an IC, I would expect Persus to be more active, and generally asking better questions than everyone else. Still though, I can't draw conclusions based on 'well of course they would look like that because they're better informed than me'. So I'll just have to accept that I know nothing and abstain from having an opinion.Don't abstain from having an opinion.
Tiruin - Similarly, and opinion I claimed would be completely uneducated. I can't even say that she's polite, because scum can (and should) be polite too.
Not comfortable at all. The fact that everyone is currently piling on him makes me think either Tiruin or DP is his partner, or that he's town and scum are trying to Mislynch. Given that its Day 1, I'm going with the latter.
Everyone, how comfortable do you feel with a lynch at this point?
This question is useless and encourages WIFOM. And why should people ignore how scummy people are? The scum won't.
And another question for Everyone: Ignoring how scummy any individual is, who do you think is likely to be NKd today?
I have my own thoughts but I suppose it would ruin a question like this if I gave an answer to this question right underneath it.
Persus13: Care to give us a little more analysis of the game so far? What are your reads on various people?I think that several players are taking their first steps. Graknorke is heading in the right direction, LARD seems to be going slightly different from everyone else, and DP has refused to take any steps. Right now I'm in a paranoid, "anyone could be scum" stage of playing.
I'd like to especially applaud 4maskwolf, who seems to be already doing that to me.Thank you, thank you, I'm here all week :P.
I plan to keep a close eye on Graknorke, Solymr, Tiruin, and you, especially, for closer scanning, and as possible scum suspects. My reads I gave to Mastahcheese and my thoughts on the current dogpile on LARD are already stated.Why these particular four, may I ask?
Appears to be bandwagoning on LARD with a ambiguous reason: "pretty much everything he says points to scum", medium scum lean.I have never seen the word bandwagon used before in reference to a FoS.
Maybe abstain was a poor word. Point is that I am not and probably will not be informed enough to form a valid opinion. Anything I try to come up with you'll probably just chew me out for.Persus13 - This one's harder. Since he's an IC, I would expect Persus to be more active, and generally asking better questions than everyone else. Still though, I can't draw conclusions based on 'well of course they would look like that because they're better informed than me'. So I'll just have to accept that I know nothing and abstain from having an opinion.Don't abstain from having an opinion.
Tiruin - Similarly, and opinion I claimed would be completely uneducated. I can't even say that she's polite, because scum can (and should) be polite too.
Useless: Nothing is entirely useless, but I was more just trying to throw out questions than go after any particular piece of information because the discussion was winding down.This question is useless and encourages WIFOM. And why should people ignore how scummy people are? The scum won't.
And another question for Everyone: Ignoring how scummy any individual is, who do you think is likely to be NKd today?
I have my own thoughts but I suppose it would ruin a question like this if I gave an answer to this question right underneath it.
So LARD is town and scum is trying to get a mislynch on him?Not comfortable at all. The fact that everyone is currently piling on him makes me think either Tiruin or DP is his partner, or that he's town and scum are trying to Mislynch. Given that its Day 1, I'm going with the latter.
Everyone, how comfortable do you feel with a lynch at this point?
Now there is something that doesn't add up about your last statement. If those four are suspects of bandwagoning Lard, why did you exclude TDS, who also voted for him?Oh, that's one I missed, considering I was going to list TDS, Tiruin, and myself as being the ones who made the vote. While I would expect Persus to be more thorough, I still can't really find anything to imply that it wasn't just an oversight.
Now there is something that doesn't add up about your last statement. If those four are suspects of bandwagoning Lard, why did you exclude TDS, who also voted for him?Oh, that's one I missed, considering I was going to list TDS, Tiruin, and myself as being the ones who made the vote. While I would expect Persus to be more thorough, I still can't really find anything to imply that it wasn't just an oversight.
Well, I say that. They only really have interacted once, and it was TDS making a pressure vote on a question that I wouldn't think required it, then Persus answered and TDS unvoted and never followed up any more questions for Persus. The possibility of it being staged to make them look less like a team is slim, but there nontheless.
As for the extension, I don't think it's necessary. We have over 40 hours to reach a conclusion, and the problems are certain people not communicating enough, rather than one where it can be solved with more time.
Persus is definitely acting odd.Actually, I was saying that you were acting odd.
Persus13: If you were scum, would you target people who suspected you or people who didn't suspect you first?Was important enough for a vote? Considering that you removed it as soon as Persus answered with no further questions, it seems as though you were giving him an easy time of it.
Why did you think that:Persus13: If you were scum, would you target people who suspected you or people who didn't suspect you first?Was important enough for a vote? Considering that you removed it as soon as Persus answered with no further questions, it seems as though you were giving him an easy time of it.
MastahCheese: Who do you think would be the most dangerous player if they were scum of the players playing? Why?The ICs. They would know what they are doing. If you're meaning non-ICs, then I don't really know, I don't know enough about people to say.
Why do you say this? If you afraid of being "chewed out" because it will make you feel like you're doing something wrong, well then you need to realize that this is a BM, the whole point is learning, and avoiding doing something will only hinder your opportunities to learn.Maybe abstain was a poor word. Point is that I am not and probably will not be informed enough to form a valid opinion. Anything I try to come up with you'll probably just chew me out for.Persus13 - This one's harder. Since he's an IC, I would expect Persus to be more active, and generally asking better questions than everyone else. Still though, I can't draw conclusions based on 'well of course they would look like that because they're better informed than me'. So I'll just have to accept that I know nothing and abstain from having an opinion.Don't abstain from having an opinion.
Tiruin - Similarly, and opinion I claimed would be completely uneducated. I can't even say that she's polite, because scum can (and should) be polite too.
As for the extension, I don't think it's necessary. We have over 40 hours to reach a conclusion, and the problems are certain people not communicating enough, rather than one where it can be solved with more time.You realize that we don't really have any limits on extensions, right?
Graknorke: What do you believe is odd about the behavior of TDS?
TDS: What do you believe is odd about the behavior of Persus?
Graknorke: What do you believe is odd about the behavior of TDS?It was the thing I just mentioned about the interaction between Persus13 and TDS, but apparently that's a normal thing. It seems kind of pointless to me, but if that's what's standard then eh.
GraknorkeNo, it's not for that. It's because it would be a waste of time. There's not much I could say that you couldn't just reply to with, "Your conclusions are poorly-formed and invalid." or something to that effect. Basically, there's no way that I could say anything about you that you don't like.Why do you say this? If you afraid of being "chewed out" because it will make you feel like you're doing something wrong, well then you need to realize that this is a BM, the whole point is learning, and avoiding doing something will only hinder your opportunities to learn.Maybe abstain was a poor word. Point is that I am not and probably will not be informed enough to form a valid opinion. Anything I try to come up with you'll probably just chew me out for.Persus13 - This one's harder. Since he's an IC, I would expect Persus to be more active, and generally asking better questions than everyone else. Still though, I can't draw conclusions based on 'well of course they would look like that because they're better informed than me'. So I'll just have to accept that I know nothing and abstain from having an opinion.Don't abstain from having an opinion.
Tiruin - Similarly, and opinion I claimed would be completely uneducated. I can't even say that she's polite, because scum can (and should) be polite too.
The only other reason to avoid it would be that you're afraid of having pressure applied to you, which is something that town shouldn't care about
I'm not opposed, I just don't think we need one. Not everything is a pair of extremes, only being able to want or detest an extension.As for the extension, I don't think it's necessary. We have over 40 hours to reach a conclusion, and the problems are certain people not communicating enough, rather than one where it can be solved with more time.You realize that we don't really have any limits on extensions, right?
If you're convinced that someone is scum, then I doubt more time will make you start to doubt that.
Why are you opposed to an extend?
Not to mention the questions that would really only serve to benefit scum through causing chaos and distrust and WIFOM.Okay great. Maybe if you could express it in a way that gives more focus we could actually get a discussion going. Until then all we have is your vague accusations of 'off'ness.
You're new, Graknorke, but something is off about you beyond that.
Mastahcheese: Do you believe that either of the IC's is possibly scum, looking at the day so far.Unsure. Tiruin has been too busy as of late to post enough for me to get a read, and I'm unsure on Persus. I've been closely following TDS's statements on Persus with interest, though, he makes some good arguments.
Also, where's the tunnel vision that characterized you in the last BM?
You seem very easy to change your opinions of something, and very.. non-caring about it. Why do you not feel more of an investment toward your suspicions?Graknorke: What do you believe is odd about the behavior of TDS?It was the thing I just mentioned about the interaction between Persus13 and TDS, but apparently that's a normal thing. It seems kind of pointless to me, but if that's what's standard then eh.
"Waste of time"? Nothing is a waste of time in this game. Never and I mean NEVER assume that you know what someone's answer will be before posting.GraknorkeNo, it's not for that. It's because it would be a waste of time. There's not much I could say that you couldn't just reply to with, "Your conclusions are poorly-formed and invalid." or something to that effect. Basically, there's no way that I could say anything about you that you don't like.Why do you say this? If you afraid of being "chewed out" because it will make you feel like you're doing something wrong, well then you need to realize that this is a BM, the whole point is learning, and avoiding doing something will only hinder your opportunities to learn.Maybe abstain was a poor word. Point is that I am not and probably will not be informed enough to form a valid opinion. Anything I try to come up with you'll probably just chew me out for.Persus13 - This one's harder. Since he's an IC, I would expect Persus to be more active, and generally asking better questions than everyone else. Still though, I can't draw conclusions based on 'well of course they would look like that because they're better informed than me'. So I'll just have to accept that I know nothing and abstain from having an opinion.Don't abstain from having an opinion.
Tiruin - Similarly, and opinion I claimed would be completely uneducated. I can't even say that she's polite, because scum can (and should) be polite too.
The only other reason to avoid it would be that you're afraid of having pressure applied to you, which is something that town shouldn't care about
You're right, it isn't just extremes, but sitting on fences is a common scum practice.I'm not opposed, I just don't think we need one. Not everything is a pair of extremes, only being able to want or detest an extension.As for the extension, I don't think it's necessary. We have over 40 hours to reach a conclusion, and the problems are certain people not communicating enough, rather than one where it can be solved with more time.You realize that we don't really have any limits on extensions, right?
If you're convinced that someone is scum, then I doubt more time will make you start to doubt that.
Why are you opposed to an extend?
And now you're starting to get passive-aggressive. And going off of a "vague accusation" is a very common reason to start pressuring someone, for your information. And if you want more focus, Graknorke, then tell me why I shouldn't believe you to be scum? Or for that matter, why you are once again questioning my methods of scum-hunting like you did here (http://here)? I'm starting to doubt that excuse you gave to that.Not to mention the questions that would really only serve to benefit scum through causing chaos and distrust and WIFOM.Okay great. Maybe if you could express it in a way that gives more focus we could actually get a discussion going. Until then all we have is your vague accusations of 'off'ness.
You're new, Graknorke, but something is off about you beyond that.
Would you care to show us these "slip-ups" that you are so aware of? Or perhaps why you are loathe to have pressure applied to you?So I take it from your answers that you'd dislike being scum, for the reason that you'd be bad at it? If you had to be scum, what do you think you'd find most interesting about it?Not necessarily that I'd be bad at it. I've made a bunch of slip ups already without the added pressure of having to be an antagonist. But the extra pressure certainly wouldn't help.
There's a difference between sitting on a fence and just not wanting change. I just wanted to acknowledge the extend request, while also saying that I didn't support it. Perhaps you're reading too much into it.You're right, it isn't just extremes, but sitting on fences is a common scum practice.I'm not opposed, I just don't think we need one. Not everything is a pair of extremes, only being able to want or detest an extension.As for the extension, I don't think it's necessary. We have over 40 hours to reach a conclusion, and the problems are certain people not communicating enough, rather than one where it can be solved with more time.You realize that we don't really have any limits on extensions, right?
If you're convinced that someone is scum, then I doubt more time will make you start to doubt that.
Why are you opposed to an extend?
Again, not fear. You can give all of the faux-motivational speeches you want, but saying something is well and truly useless if nobody listens. I don't see how you could argue otherwise."Waste of time"? Nothing is a waste of time in this game. Never and I mean NEVER assume that you know what someone's answer will be before posting.GraknorkeNo, it's not for that. It's because it would be a waste of time. There's not much I could say that you couldn't just reply to with, "Your conclusions are poorly-formed and invalid." or something to that effect. Basically, there's no way that I could say anything about you that you don't like.Why do you say this? If you afraid of being "chewed out" because it will make you feel like you're doing something wrong, well then you need to realize that this is a BM, the whole point is learning, and avoiding doing something will only hinder your opportunities to learn.Maybe abstain was a poor word. Point is that I am not and probably will not be informed enough to form a valid opinion. Anything I try to come up with you'll probably just chew me out for.Persus13 - This one's harder. Since he's an IC, I would expect Persus to be more active, and generally asking better questions than everyone else. Still though, I can't draw conclusions based on 'well of course they would look like that because they're better informed than me'. So I'll just have to accept that I know nothing and abstain from having an opinion.Don't abstain from having an opinion.
Tiruin - Similarly, and opinion I claimed would be completely uneducated. I can't even say that she's polite, because scum can (and should) be polite too.
The only other reason to avoid it would be that you're afraid of having pressure applied to you, which is something that town shouldn't care about
(Bolded bit) Why do you care about what I do or don't like? And what I do/don't like is irrelevant when the main part of this was pertaining to Persus. Now you're admitting to not saying something out of a fear of someone's reply!
GraknorkeYou're using that as an example? Because it wasn't founded on much to begin with. It was just musing about a possibility that got easily explained away by my lack of understanding of the standard course a game takes. Do you have a problem with people being wrong?You seem very easy to change your opinions of something, and very.. non-caring about it. Why do you not feel more of an investment toward your suspicions?Graknorke: What do you believe is odd about the behavior of TDS?It was the thing I just mentioned about the interaction between Persus13 and TDS, but apparently that's a normal thing. It seems kind of pointless to me, but if that's what's standard then eh.
That... is not scumhunting. That's just you telling us your feelings.And now you're starting to get passive-aggressive. And going off of a "vague accusation" is a very common reason to start pressuring someone, for your information. And if you want more focus, Graknorke, then tell me why I shouldn't believe you to be scum? Or for that matter, why you are once again questioning my methods of scum-hunting like you did here (http://here)? I'm starting to doubt that excuse you gave to that.Not to mention the questions that would really only serve to benefit scum through causing chaos and distrust and WIFOM.Okay great. Maybe if you could express it in a way that gives more focus we could actually get a discussion going. Until then all we have is your vague accusations of 'off'ness.
You're new, Graknorke, but something is off about you beyond that.
Oh come now, I'd hope you would remember. After all, you're the one who pointed it out.Would you care to show us these "slip-ups" that you are so aware of? Or perhaps why you are loathe to have pressure applied to you?So I take it from your answers that you'd dislike being scum, for the reason that you'd be bad at it? If you had to be scum, what do you think you'd find most interesting about it?Not necessarily that I'd be bad at it. I've made a bunch of slip ups already without the added pressure of having to be an antagonist. But the extra pressure certainly wouldn't help.
[2] Well at least now there is an attempt. I'm sorry, what is this "gaoler"? Asking questions regarding (what I assume to be a role) that aren't even in the game seem to be far less effective at finding scum, than my methods, which you are doubting. And when you are protected, you don't know that you are protected. You are completely unaware of such an event.
Ok, I was inclined to agree with you until the "Perhaps you're reading too much into it" bit. Adding that part contributed absolutely nothing aside from causing doubt. That is most certainly a scum tactic.You're right, it isn't just extremes, but sitting on fences is a common scum practice.There's a difference between sitting on a fence and just not wanting change. I just wanted to acknowledge the extend request, while also saying that I didn't support it. Perhaps you're reading too much into it.
How in the hell would you know that nobody would listen if you won't post it! That flies straight in the face of what you said earlier about not wanting to post it out of not wanting to be chewed out!"Waste of time"? Nothing is a waste of time in this game. Never and I mean NEVER assume that you know what someone's answer will be before posting.Again, not fear. You can give all of the faux-motivational speeches you want, but saying something is well and truly useless if nobody listens. I don't see how you could argue otherwise.
(Bolded bit) Why do you care about what I do or don't like? And what I do/don't like is irrelevant when the main part of this was pertaining to Persus. Now you're admitting to not saying something out of a fear of someone's reply!
Because you're taking the attitude of someone who simply doesn't care about the things they perceive. Think about what you did from this perspective.You seem very easy to change your opinions of something, and very.. non-caring about it. Why do you not feel more of an investment toward your suspicions?You're using that as an example? Because it wasn't founded on much to begin with. It was just musing about a possibility that got easily explained away by my lack of understanding of the standard course a game takes. Do you have a problem with people being wrong?
I'm sorry, how is what I said in any way just "telling you my feelings?" I never included my feeling into that in any way. What you're doing is called "deflection" which is trying to change the topic to something else entirely, probably in an attempt to incriminate me, in this case.And now you're starting to get passive-aggressive. And going off of a "vague accusation" is a very common reason to start pressuring someone, for your information. And if you want more focus, Graknorke, then tell me why I shouldn't believe you to be scum? Or for that matter, why you are once again questioning my methods of scum-hunting like you did here (http://here)? I'm starting to doubt that excuse you gave to that.That... is not scumhunting. That's just you telling us your feelings.
And your request is both ridiculous and nearly impossible. Everything I've posted is evidence that I'm not scum, considering that I've been asking and answering questions in the hopes of uncovering something scummy from someone. You can argue about the quality of them certainly, but you can't say I haven't been trying. Also, there's a reason why we have scumhunting rather than townproving. The burden of proof is on you to find something scummy on me, rather than on me to show you all of the non-scummy things I've done.
So your "slip up" in this case is simply a clerical error, or misunderstanding of the rules? That's not a "slip up" by Mafia terms, and you should know that.Would you care to show us these "slip-ups" that you are so aware of? Or perhaps why you are loathe to have pressure applied to you?Oh come now, I'd hope you would remember. After all, you're the one who pointed it out.[2] Well at least now there is an attempt. I'm sorry, what is this "gaoler"? Asking questions regarding (what I assume to be a role) that aren't even in the game seem to be far less effective at finding scum, than my methods, which you are doubting. And when you are protected, you don't know that you are protected. You are completely unaware of such an event.
I wish I could pressure-vote LARD a second time.Sorry about the promise to OMGUS you, I looked over your posts and it doesn't look like you're scum to me. Originally I had thought you were because you jumped on me so quickly. Sorry about my rash promise to come after you, it was just a defensive measure.
Come on LARD, what's keeping you? You promised that you'd at least OMGUS me, you really need to do something. You were active before.
Kind of the same with darkpaladin too. We could really do with more input from you.
So, it seems like LARD is way out ahead in terms of vote count.
Everyone, how comfortable do you feel with a lynch at this point?
I mean, I think LARD is scum, but at the same time it feels like he hasn't really responded properly to any accusations. I know that it's his fault for being slow or whatever, but I'd kind of like to see what he has to say. Maybe it could clear some things up, at least. 55 hours to go for that.
Persus
Ignoring the fact that you didn't answer my question and that I didn't actually vote for Lard, I'll explain my reasons for suspecting him.
I'm only going to refer to the most recent ones since it's getting late here.
Here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=136649.msg5045307#msg5045307) in this post I asked him for an explanation and still hasn't answered, even when he posted later. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=136649.msg5046567#msg5046567)
I may give him a pass on this if he answers later.
In that same post he unvotes wolf immediately after being pointed out that he's pushing him on a weak case. There is also his worrying about looking town, and this response (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=136649.msg5045768#msg5045768) in which he gets pretty defensive and contradicts himself on the ambiguous answers matter.
Now there is something that doesn't add up about your last statement. If those four are suspects of bandwagoning Lard, why did you exclude TDS, who also voted for him?
When I said I would attack them, I meant that if I was mafia I would night-kill them because due to the heavy suspicion on me, I could pass it off as the mafia trying to put suspicion where it was easiest.I was considering voting for Graknorke, as he is jumping on me for accusing 4mask,If I am scum and somebody is attacking me, I probably will attack them. It looks suspicious and I generally look suspicious when I play these games.Okay, I'm starting to appreciate those gamestarter questions from earlier on.
So LARD, you're explicitly avoiding an action you have said would make you look suspicious? That's pretty scummy in itself.
And your reason was way off anyway. I didn't jump on you for accusing 4mask, it was for holding two differing viewpoints. And then you clarified your answer, but you still seem to be making a suspiciously specific conclusion as to why I was pressuring you, even though I stated otherwise. It's almost like you think I think you have something against 4mask. Care to explain why?
LARD: pretty much everything he says points to scum., and above reasons.
If we have left the random vote stage then I will unvote 4maskwolf because it was a pressure vote all along. I think it valuable to a townsperson to make their target think that a pressure vote is a lynch vote, because it adds more pressure. The mountain was a molehill the whole time, it is true. I was merely trying to add pressure with the most aggressive means possible. Sorry if that added confusion to the rest of you.
I have to go now, but I'll tell you now that Graknorke is my next target.
To clarify why I think you are scummy:
1. You claim that your vote was not intended as a lynch despite earlier evidence. This seems to be there more as a cover-up of a mistake.
2. Town doesn't find targets based on randomly choosing. If someone behaves scummily, hunt them down for it. Town doesn't want random people dead, they want specific people (the people they think are scum) dead. Your choice seems random, especially since you did not back it up at all. You had an excuse, but I expect a good reason once you can post again.
Really?why did you not answer my question?Why do you care about what I do or don't like?saying something is well and truly useless if nobody listens.
No, I'm not seeing how that's scummy. You're saying I could keep trying to pressure somebody when there is literally nothing to go on?Because you're taking the attitude of someone who simply doesn't care about the things they perceive. Think about what you did from this perspective.You seem very easy to change your opinions of something, and very.. non-caring about it. Why do you not feel more of an investment toward your suspicions?You're using that as an example? Because it wasn't founded on much to begin with. It was just musing about a possibility that got easily explained away by my lack of understanding of the standard course a game takes. Do you have a problem with people being wrong?
Scum: "That looks like something I could use to get someone accused with! I'll go after that."
Other player: "Actually that's something very common."
Scum: "Oh, well I better back off of this and act never it never happened to save face."
What you're trying to do is brush it off and sweep it under the rug, not explain that what you're trying to do is find scum, and was simply unaware of what constitutes scummy behavior. Yes, there is a difference. If you can't see that then you aren't looking as hard at it as you should be.
And no, I don't have a problem with people being wrong. If people were never wrong, they would never learn. And that's what this is for.
And why didn't you answer my question this time, either?
Since when was saying that someone mentioned their feelings at attempt to incriminate someone? I can't find a way to read my post as even implying that you are scum. I'm just saying that asking me to prove my innocence doesn't really make sense, not only seeing as I'm biased, but apparently even a crime as heinous as making a mistake is a scumtell. So naturally I would miss things that you wouldn't.I'm sorry, how is what I said in any way just "telling you my feelings?" I never included my feeling into that in any way. What you're doing is called "deflection" which is trying to change the topic to something else entirely, probably in an attempt to incriminate me, in this case.And now you're starting to get passive-aggressive. And going off of a "vague accusation" is a very common reason to start pressuring someone, for your information. And if you want more focus, Graknorke, then tell me why I shouldn't believe you to be scum? Or for that matter, why you are once again questioning my methods of scum-hunting like you did here (http://here)? I'm starting to doubt that excuse you gave to that.That... is not scumhunting. That's just you telling us your feelings.
And your request is both ridiculous and nearly impossible. Everything I've posted is evidence that I'm not scum, considering that I've been asking and answering questions in the hopes of uncovering something scummy from someone. You can argue about the quality of them certainly, but you can't say I haven't been trying. Also, there's a reason why we have scumhunting rather than townproving. The burden of proof is on you to find something scummy on me, rather than on me to show you all of the non-scummy things I've done.
"And your request is both ridiculous and nearly impossible." Um, no, it's not. People have done this many times before, and very well, in many cases. Telling someone else that it "isn't your job" to prove their innocence, and blaming the other person, telling them to find the proof, is something that I've never heard from anyone that isn't town. Accusing the accuser is called OMGUS, whether a vote is attached or not.
In the context I was using it, it's clear that by "slip-up" I meant mistake, since I applied it to townies. But of course, how could I forget that not understanding terminology properly is a scumtell right?So your "slip up" in this case is simply a clerical error, or misunderstanding of the rules? That's not a "slip up" by Mafia terms, and you should know that.Would you care to show us these "slip-ups" that you are so aware of? Or perhaps why you are loathe to have pressure applied to you?Oh come now, I'd hope you would remember. After all, you're the one who pointed it out.[2] Well at least now there is an attempt. I'm sorry, what is this "gaoler"? Asking questions regarding (what I assume to be a role) that aren't even in the game seem to be far less effective at finding scum, than my methods, which you are doubting. And when you are protected, you don't know that you are protected. You are completely unaware of such an event.
And why did you, for the third time now in this post alone, not answer my question? In case you missed it, it was right after the one you did answer. "Or perhaps why you are loathe to have pressure applied to you?" <- Right here.
I'm loathe to post reads on IC's, due both to their experience, and the fact that they're here to help, so null for now.I'd like everyone here to question your terminology and what you identify with it, first.
Mr CheeseThe answer to the two bolded bits are the same. I'm asking to get conversation started, basically. See if people give any sort of answer that flat out makes no sense, that sort of thing. Also in part because I like to know more about people, just as a general curiosity. You also failed to answer the first question, whether you prefer to play as town or scum.Tiruin: You're scum. Your scumbuddy happened to draw some suspicion due to some of their behavior, but not enough to get lynched. Would they be any particular type of person you'd try to kill in the night at this point? Why? How would you proceed for the next day? Why?When 'at this point' means 'Day', I presume?
Well I'd target the investigative voices-those which treat the situation with a generalist attitude. Those of probing hints or curious motive--all due because I am to either Rolecop/kill them. For the next day, I will deliberate with said buddy-point out his flaws, probably give hints on what s/he's to do in that matter, and in the next day I shall prod them on the matter--moreso because its an aid to the person regardless of their role and it helps them learn instead of going all aggressive on them.
Why? My playstyle. I side with benevolence no matter what alignment I am on.
Did you ask that question to learn more about me?Question to everyone: What would be your preferred role? Why?No preference. Why? Because my playstyle doesn't depend on my role--whatever ability exists in said role is but a tool I can work with-sure, my playstyle could conform to how I use said tool, but it has no direct relation to why I have this role nor on why I'd like it.
For me, the role or the wincon doesn't define the player but their [the player's] principles.
Why do you ask?
So who would you say, so far, has a "generalist attitude"?
You also failed to answer the first question, whether you prefer to play as town or scum....I didn't see any question like this.
So who would you say, so far, has a "generalist attitude"?...It would be hard to decide, given the general playerbase I'm staring at now. Persus is focused yet spreading his cheese to cover everyone. 4mask seems pointy and being a non-absolutist in his posts, yet I can easily trace his intent (or in the least poke on where its going). Solymr, Graknorke, LARD, and darkpaladin109 are all in my 'introduce me to you and I'll meet you here' zone. Which means I can't develop a qualitative read on them to base quite anything regarding them at all. TDS is being specifically grumpy :I but not generalistic, seemingly absolutist in his perception.
As for my reads,On those you find scummy--can you back them up with a little context? As in, I see accusations, but I want to see the exacts.
Lard: poor, misunderstood, sad, pathetic lump at the bottom of dogpile. (just kidding)
Tiruin: Quite scummy. Voted me on first post with very little explanation. Perhaps that means she is dropping hints in order not to destroy us too bad, maybe she is busy and under strain, or maybe just a pressure vote. Pressure vote seems unlikely do to lack of reasons.
Graknorke: I don't have a very good read on him because he's more experienced, seems to be legitimately fishing very hard for information though. I'm sorry about you needing to pressure me. town lean, and I'm not just saying that to get you on my side.
TDS:
Solymr You are not fishing very hard for information, seem unacceptably ambiguous,LARD: pretty much everything he says points to scum., and above reasons.
TheDarkStar: voted with not that much reasoning other than what other people had said. Med scum lean.
Now, what is the most effective town strategy for day one, in your personal opinion.LYNCH DAY ONE. LYNCH AT DAY ONE. LYNCH AT DAY ONE.
I vote personX^Good example of what NOT TO BLOODY DO AS YOUR DAY POST. ONLY.
Everyone: Is there a time to use the FoS, if so, when? What do you believe is the difference between an FoS and a vote, beyond the obvious? Do you believe that the questions asked on day one can help find scum, and why? Would you rather have a power role or a vanilla role, and why?Tiruin does not use the FoS unless she deems the situation necessary.
So what does the role give to the player?Everyone: What is your favorite subject in Mafia? Favorite notion to talk about?
What do you not understand about Forum Mafia? What about your least favorite notion?
Favorite subject: Rules for a non-standard mafia game. It's fun figuring them out!
Favorite notion: People playing well. It's fun if people try to do their best and talk a lot (as opposed to lurking, which slows down the game and makes it not very fun because nothing is happening).
Something I don't understand: Why I have so much trouble making it to Day 3. Seriously, I get lynched as scum and nightkilled during Night 1/mislynched as town.
Least favorite notion: Powerless civilians. I find it annoying to have no abilities and so I like power role-heavy games like Paranormal. It's almost as bad as lurking, but other people have said quiet a bit about that.
A runner up to my least favorite notion is Vigilante-type roles who target random people every night. Random killing is likely to just kill more Town than the one that the scum already kill.
Questions first:Query on them reads again: Why do you give a presumably 'good' read on the rest-and not on the ICs?
4maskwolf:
I haven't used FoS, but I guess it's useful for stating that you're suspicious of one or more people without voting and risking an unwanted lynch.
Questions on Day1 are useful if they make someone nervous or paranoid. Usually means that they're scum
And I like power roles because I want to feel special :3
Graknorke:
Lynches on Day1 aren't usually successful, but they give valuable information. I'm not completely sure, but lynching LARD wouldn't feel like a bad move because every time he posts he seems more suspicious.
As for the NK, I have no idea. TDS looks like the Kenny around here who never gets to Day2.
And reads:
4maskwolf: much activity and hunting. Most likely to be town.
Graknorke: also very active. Another good contender for town.
Mastahcheese: isn't asking too many questions but doesn't seem too suspicious.
TDS: quite active. Probable town.
DP: seems like he's trying to avoid answering certain questions and doesn't make himself clear. Slight scum.
LARD: pretty much everything he says points to scum.
The ICs I'll wait until Day2 to get a good read.
And about the NK and such, why not ask the pros?
For the ICs: if you were scum and people told you who they think that's going to get killed, what would you do?
I personally think that scum could use that info to get the town into a massive WIFOM and drive everyone nuts.
And about the NK and such, why not ask the pros?...? Pros?
Ok. I'm pretty sure we already established that that first point only lead to a dead end (wifom) so it is irrelevant.No, we haven't. We haven't established that the point is in exacts that the mafia even know you exist yet you word it as if they already know who you are. This is the context. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=136649.msg5043512#msg5043512) Now to the point you address to 4mask-it seems more of a benign 'situational assessment' type question to get to know how others act as.
Everyone Ambiguous answers, are they scummy?
Like the one I give you now?> I wanted to see your response to that.
Lard: I want a response to this still:
To clarify why I think you are scummy:
1. You claim that your vote was not intended as a lynch despite earlier evidence. This seems to be there more as a cover-up of a mistake.
2. Town doesn't find targets based on randomly choosing. If someone behaves scummily, hunt them down for it. Town doesn't want random people dead, they want specific people (the people they think are scum) dead. Your choice seems random, especially since you did not back it up at all. You had an excuse, but I expect a good reason once you can post again.
I'm tempted to change my vote off you because of things that have been happening, but I want to see your response to my comments first.
LARD
On this note: (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=136649.msg5046567#msg5046567)QuoteOk. I'm pretty sure we already established that that first point only lead to a dead end (wifom) so it is irrelevant.No, we haven't. We haven't established that the point is in exacts that the mafia even know you exist yet you word it as if they already know who you are. This is the context. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=136649.msg5043512#msg5043512) Now to the point you address to 4mask-it seems more of a benign 'situational assessment' type question to get to know how others act as.
On how it could only be used by mafia is something that intrigues my curiosity-you state that out but not how. I'd like to know more about why it is so specific, thanks.
On how the mafia would not assume--could you dictate how this works to me?
And on the last: I was being snarky.QuoteEveryone Ambiguous answers, are they scummy?QuoteLike the one I give you now?> I wanted to see your response to that.
On the reason behind it? It depends on what the question was. If you asked me what color my underwear is and I'd reply a '...', how would that be scummy?
Things like these kinds of questions-to-all, while exaggerated in my example above, need to have their wording put out in such a way that you'd be gaining something from the other person.
Because they could be scummy but not-actually-scummy for a number of reasons: Language barrier, misconception of the question, misreading of the question, differing viewpoint...
The list is too vast to pinpoint them.
So for me? No they aren't scummy. It depends on the question.
LARDAs for my reads,On those you find scummy--can you back them up with a little context? As in, I see accusations, but I want to see the exacts.
Lard: poor, misunderstood, sad, pathetic lump at the bottom of dogpile. (just kidding)
Tiruin: Quite scummy. Voted me on first post with very little explanation. Perhaps that means she is dropping hints in order not to destroy us too bad, maybe she is busy and under strain, or maybe just a pressure vote. Pressure vote seems unlikely do to lack of reasons.
Graknorke: I don't have a very good read on him because he's more experienced, seems to be legitimately fishing very hard for information though. I'm sorry about you needing to pressure me. town lean, and I'm not just saying that to get you on my side.
TDS:
Solymr You are not fishing very hard for information, seem unacceptably ambiguous,LARD: pretty much everything he says points to scum., and above reasons.
TheDarkStar: voted with not that much reasoning other than what other people had said. Med scum lean.
Point being: There are more variants of who you find scummy--yet those are more on who voted you out of the general audience.
And the reads on others?
And thus I ask this: Do you fear the more experienced person? Why or why not?Yes, I fear the more experienced people. They have enough experience in these kinds of things that they could argue their own way better than others, which is problematic if they are scum, and even if not scum they have the power to steer the game how they want. That's reason enough to be concerned.
Next: Are you more likely to target the experienced person with an: inspect, block or protect? Why or why not? You may pick any or all of the choices.
This question is to see if there is any discrepancy between personal value attached to certain terms that people deem important.
Solymr: He pointed the FoS at me and seems unwilling to vote me, perhaps scared of joining a dogpile. (which doesn't exist anymore, thanks)You'd best not be ignoring me on your scum reads just to try and get on my good side. I might not be voting for you anymore, but I'm not going to take something like that either. It looks bad on you too, so please don't.
Tiruin: I didn't find your answer to my accusation of not giving a reason for voting me, sorry if I just missed it. If you were scum, you might try to go easy on us a bit by accusing the easy target right away. I don't have as good a read on you because you're an experienced player.
TDS I don't have that much on him, but he seems to non commiting
I am the most opinionated on the ones who have accused me because it was a bit of a dogpile, and we got to see who responded to it. As for the ones who haven't had that much to do with it:
MastahcheeseGenuinely fishing for info, hasn't done anything terrible yet, and hasn't got any telling information either.
4maskwolf Answered to my earlier pressure with tact, charm and reason. He seems to be fine.
I like how you trimmed your part of the post to imitate an answer, but the particular part to trim it to is the part I have already stated as being completely invalid. I'm going to listen. I have been listening. The fact that you are attempting to stall your responses for as long as possible does wonders to your attempt to convince me that you aren't scum.Really?why did you not answer my question?Why do you care about what I do or don't like?saying something is well and truly useless if nobody listens.
[1] No, that is not what I'm saying. I'm saying that if you find some something suspicious, you shouldn't just be willing to cast that out at a moment's notice. Regardless of what is considered normal or not, if something sets off a bell, then you pursue it. If the only thing you ever went off of was what you believed to be fact, then what is even the point in talking?No, I'm not seeing how that's scummy. [1] You're saying I could keep trying to pressure somebody when there is literally nothing to go on?Because you're taking the attitude of someone who simply doesn't care about the things they perceive. Think about what you did from this perspective.You seem very easy to change your opinions of something, and very.. non-caring about it. Why do you not feel more of an investment toward your suspicions?You're using that as an example? Because it wasn't founded on much to begin with. It was just musing about a possibility that got easily explained away by my lack of understanding of the standard course a game takes. Do you have a problem with people being wrong?
Scum: "That looks like something I could use to get someone accused with! I'll go after that."
Other player: "Actually that's something very common."
Scum: "Oh, well I better back off of this and act never it never happened to save face."
What you're trying to do is brush it off and sweep it under the rug, not explain that what you're trying to do is find scum, and was simply unaware of what constitutes scummy behavior. Yes, there is a difference. If you can't see that then you aren't looking as hard at it as you should be.
And no, I don't have a problem with people being wrong. If people were never wrong, they would never learn. And that's what this is for.
And why didn't you answer my question this time, either?
And I didn't act like it never happened. That would be ridiculous, because it obviously did happen (it's recorded there in text, it's not like you couldn't go back and check). [2] It's just not important. I made a mistake because of my lack of experience.
And your question was not only a leading question, but I answered it fine. I explained to you why I changed my opinion in the answer you gave. [3] If you aren't satisfied with that, ask me about another one. To be honest, I don't think there is another.
The mentioning of feelings isn't an attempt at incrimination, trying to claim that I'm not scumhunting is, when I clearly have been by talking to you. So tell me then, which part of what I said in the above quote did you consider to be nothing but "feelings"? Since you failed to specify. Also since you appear to be under the belief that my request in an impossibility, how many games of Mafia have you read? Because my request is by no means at all an uncommon one, nor one that never gets answered.Since when was saying that someone mentioned their feelings at attempt to incriminate someone? I can't find a way to read my post as even implying that you are scum. I'm just saying that asking me to prove my innocence doesn't really make sense, not only seeing as I'm biased, but apparently even a crime as heinous as making a mistake is a scumtell. So naturally I would miss things that you wouldn't.I'm sorry, how is what I said in any way just "telling you my feelings?" I never included my feeling into that in any way. What you're doing is called "deflection" which is trying to change the topic to something else entirely, probably in an attempt to incriminate me, in this case.And now you're starting to get passive-aggressive. And going off of a "vague accusation" is a very common reason to start pressuring someone, for your information. And if you want more focus, Graknorke, then tell me why I shouldn't believe you to be scum? Or for that matter, why you are once again questioning my methods of scum-hunting like you did here (http://here)? I'm starting to doubt that excuse you gave to that.That... is not scumhunting. That's just you telling us your feelings.
And your request is both ridiculous and nearly impossible. Everything I've posted is evidence that I'm not scum, considering that I've been asking and answering questions in the hopes of uncovering something scummy from someone. You can argue about the quality of them certainly, but you can't say I haven't been trying. Also, there's a reason why we have scumhunting rather than townproving. The burden of proof is on you to find something scummy on me, rather than on me to show you all of the non-scummy things I've done.
"And your request is both ridiculous and nearly impossible." Um, no, it's not. People have done this many times before, and very well, in many cases. Telling someone else that it "isn't your job" to prove their innocence, and blaming the other person, telling them to find the proof, is something that I've never heard from anyone that isn't town. Accusing the accuser is called OMGUS, whether a vote is attached or not.
I'm sorry, I'm not quite understanding what you are meaning by "leading question", this is the second time you've used it, and I fail to grasp you are referencing with it.In the context I was using it, it's clear that by "slip-up" I meant mistake, since I applied it to townies. But of course, how could I forget that not understanding terminology properly is a scumtell right?So your "slip up" in this case is simply a clerical error, or misunderstanding of the rules? That's not a "slip up" by Mafia terms, and you should know that.Would you care to show us these "slip-ups" that you are so aware of? Or perhaps why you are loathe to have pressure applied to you?Oh come now, I'd hope you would remember. After all, you're the one who pointed it out.[2] Well at least now there is an attempt. I'm sorry, what is this "gaoler"? Asking questions regarding (what I assume to be a role) that aren't even in the game seem to be far less effective at finding scum, than my methods, which you are doubting. And when you are protected, you don't know that you are protected. You are completely unaware of such an event.
And why did you, for the third time now in this post alone, not answer my question? In case you missed it, it was right after the one you did answer. "Or perhaps why you are loathe to have pressure applied to you?" <- Right here.
And that is a leading question, another from you. I'm not loathe to have pressure applied to me. It would just not be conducive to my ability to play and learn Mafia.
I don't try to play the "well I did say 'without the added pressure of having to be an antagonist'" because guess what? Scum is fond of these little subtle hints of being town, to get suspicion away from them.So I take it from your answers that you'd dislike being scum, for the reason that you'd be bad at it? If you had to be scum, what do you think you'd find most interesting about it?Not necessarily that I'd be bad at it. I've made a bunch of slip ups already without the added pressure of having to be an antagonist. But the extra pressure certainly wouldn't help.
The most interesting part I think would be the first and second day, where the scum are too outnumbered to swing a lynch vote and has to play smart to convince other people. That seems to be where the meat of basic scum gameplay is at.
As with all of these "not answering my question"s you've been getting so excited over, with the first two (the third was actually a question I didn't answer) it seems like you just want a specific answer. When you get tired of this ridiculous song-and-dance, would you like to tell me what it is? Really, you've dug up a few things you don't like, demanded an explanation, then when you get the explanation you just ask for it again.No, I'm not demanding re-explanations, I'm demanding that you stop dodging the questions! And I like how you repeated attempt to call all of my attempts to get anything out of you "ridiculous", I take it that you'd rather me simply back off? Leave you alone? Pretend it never happened?
Mastahcheese/Everybody[1] I don't fear them, but I respect them, and their ability to cover they're own scumtells, and root out those of others.I'm loathe to post reads on IC's, due both to their experience, and the fact that they're here to help, so null for now.I'd like everyone here to question your terminology and what you identify with it, first.
In any game-there will be people who are more experienced than you. There will be people less experienced than you.
And thus I ask this: [1] Do you fear the more experienced person? Why or why not?
Next: [2] Are you more likely to target the experienced person with an: inspect, block or protect? Why or why not? You may pick any or all of the choices.
This question is to see if there is any discrepancy between personal value attached to certain terms that people deem important.
Scum reads:I'll make this quick--the reason I didn't say my point on you was that I found you initially suspicious given the wording on your answer to 4mask earlier, in how you worded it. Much more of a pressure vote-I lacked insight in how you easily denounced that point without giving the reason behind why you did so.
Solymr: He pointed the FoS at me and seems unwilling to vote me, perhaps scared of joining a dogpile. (which doesn't exist anymore, thanks)
Tiruin: I didn't find your answer to my accusation of not giving a reason for voting me, sorry if I just missed it. If you were scum, you might try to go easy on us a bit by accusing the easy target right away. I don't have as good a read on you because you're an experienced player.
TDS I don't have that much on him, but he seems to non commiting
I am the most opinionated on the ones who have accused me because it was a bit of a dogpile, and we got to see who responded to it. As for the ones who haven't had that much to do with it:
MastahcheeseGenuinely fishing for info, hasn't done anything terrible yet, and hasn't got any telling information either.
4maskwolf Answered to my earlier pressure with tact, charm and reason. He seems to be fine.
All the others I have not been able to get that much from their posts.
This will likely be my last post before day end (if we don't extend). I'd rather you lynch me than have a no-lynch, but I think if we could lynch Solymr instead of me that would be even better.
OMGUS has a negative connotation. Do not use it as anything in casual chatter. Why are you and he talking about these promises as of late? There are guarantees wherein you'd both be ending up doing something? (ie vote)
Yeah sorry about not being active. I've got a first aid course this weekend and I wasn't expecting people to be so active on weekends.I wish I could pressure-vote LARD a second time.Sorry about the promise to OMGUS you, I looked over your posts and it doesn't look like you're scum to me. Originally I had thought you were because you jumped on me so quickly. Sorry about my rash promise to come after you, it was just a defensive measure.
Come on LARD, what's keeping you? You promised that you'd at least OMGUS me, you really need to do something. You were active before.
Kind of the same with darkpaladin too. We could really do with more input from you.
So, it seems like LARD is way out ahead in terms of vote count.
Everyone, how comfortable do you feel with a lynch at this point?
I mean, I think LARD is scum, but at the same time it feels like he hasn't really responded properly to any accusations. I know that it's his fault for being slow or whatever, but I'd kind of like to see what he has to say. Maybe it could clear some things up, at least. 55 hours to go for that.
Tiruin I thought we were past this one.Not much given our seemingly different viewpoints, or that you made a specific scenario out of a general one wherein you assume the Mafia knows your role.
1. The point was that if the mafia knew what everybody would do if they were jailkeeper and the cop had claimed and was proven right. They could use that information to their advantage. The information is not that useful for the mafia because they don't know if there is a jailkeeper, unless they attacked and didn't get a kill. The mafia could then use their guesses as to who was the jailkeeper and that person's reply to the question in question to decide who to nk in the circumstances. The point is that the info gained from the question is of no value to the village, because they can't do anything with it but it has a minute amount of value to the mafia. It was a lousy piece of evidence and that is the point I am trying to make. It was an RVS scumhunt. That was all.The Jailkeeper is a Town-only role. I fail to see how 'they' = 'mafia context'. Ever.
I'm alright with extending if the other players need it.
Day 1 Continues...@Darkpaladin: Do you not think this indicates where the need is?
[3] LARD: Graknorke, Tiruin, TheDarkStar
[1] darkpaladin109: Persus13
[1] Persus13: 4maskwolf
[1] Graknorke: mastahcheese
[1] Solymr: LARD
Day 1 will end Tuesday 12:00 PM MST in approximately 21 hours. Three votes have been cast for an extension. One more is required to extend the day to Wednesday 12:00 PM MST.
Solymr has requested a replacement.
GraknorkeThat is the answer I gave at the time. You can say that it's invalid all you want (ironically enough), but that doesn't change the fact that it was an answer.I like how you trimmed your part of the post to imitate an answer, but the particular part to trim it to is the part I have already stated as being completely invalid. I'm going to listen. I have been listening. The fact that you are attempting to stall your responses for as long as possible does wonders to your attempt to convince me that you aren't scum.Really?why did you not answer my question?Why do you care about what I do or don't like?saying something is well and truly useless if nobody listens.
[1&2] At the time, I deemed it not worth following that set of questions, because it could so easily be explained away. If you don't agree then you can, but I decided that line of inquiry wouldn't actually turn up anything meaningful. I suppose that were I to be in that position again, I would try a related question rather than just stopping.No, I'm not seeing how that's scummy. [1] You're saying I could keep trying to pressure somebody when there is literally nothing to go on?[1] No, that is not what I'm saying. I'm saying that if you find some something suspicious, you shouldn't just be willing to cast that out at a moment's notice. Regardless of what is considered normal or not, if something sets off a bell, then you pursue it. If the only thing you ever went off of was what you believed to be fact, then what is even the point in talking?
And I didn't act like it never happened. That would be ridiculous, because it obviously did happen (it's recorded there in text, it's not like you couldn't go back and check). [2] It's just not important. I made a mistake because of my lack of experience.
And your question was not only a leading question, but I answered it fine. I explained to you why I changed my opinion in the answer you gave. [3] If you aren't satisfied with that, ask me about another one. To be honest, I don't think there is another.
[2] Everything is important! Whether it looks like it or not, it is! If it was just a simple mistake, then did you learn anything from it?
[3] This, is once again deflection. Rather then continuing the line the subject is on, you are attempting to change it. That is still a scum tactic.
The part where you said "something is off about you". It didn't actually add anything other than making you sound like you had more than a couple of things I said and you didn't like. Like how a pigeon puffs out its chest, something insubstantial but it makes you look bigger anyway.The mentioning of feelings isn't an attempt at incrimination, trying to claim that I'm not scumhunting is, when I clearly have been by talking to you. So tell me then, which part of what I said in the above quote did you consider to be nothing but "feelings"? Since you failed to specify. Also since you appear to be under the belief that my request in an impossibility, how many games of Mafia have you read? Because my request is by no means at all an uncommon one, nor one that never gets answered.I'm sorry, how is what I said in any way just "telling you my feelings?" I never included my feeling into that in any way. What you're doing is called "deflection" which is trying to change the topic to something else entirely, probably in an attempt to incriminate me, in this case.Since when was saying that someone mentioned their feelings at attempt to incriminate someone? I can't find a way to read my post as even implying that you are scum. I'm just saying that asking me to prove my innocence doesn't really make sense, not only seeing as I'm biased, but apparently even a crime as heinous as making a mistake is a scumtell. So naturally I would miss things that you wouldn't.
"And your request is both ridiculous and nearly impossible." Um, no, it's not. People have done this many times before, and very well, in many cases. Telling someone else that it "isn't your job" to prove their innocence, and blaming the other person, telling them to find the proof, is something that I've never heard from anyone that isn't town. Accusing the accuser is called OMGUS, whether a vote is attached or not.
Firstly, that is just begging WIFOM. "I can tell you're scum because you're acting like you're town." That is thinking thatI'm sorry, I'm not quite understanding what you are meaning by "leading question", this is the second time you've used it, and I fail to grasp you are referencing with it.In the context I was using it, it's clear that by "slip-up" I meant mistake, since I applied it to townies. But of course, how could I forget that not understanding terminology properly is a scumtell right?So your "slip up" in this case is simply a clerical error, or misunderstanding of the rules? That's not a "slip up" by Mafia terms, and you should know that.Would you care to show us these "slip-ups" that you are so aware of? Or perhaps why you are loathe to have pressure applied to you?Oh come now, I'd hope you would remember. After all, you're the one who pointed it out.[2] Well at least now there is an attempt. I'm sorry, what is this "gaoler"? Asking questions regarding (what I assume to be a role) that aren't even in the game seem to be far less effective at finding scum, than my methods, which you are doubting. And when you are protected, you don't know that you are protected. You are completely unaware of such an event.
And why did you, for the third time now in this post alone, not answer my question? In case you missed it, it was right after the one you did answer. "Or perhaps why you are loathe to have pressure applied to you?" <- Right here.
And that is a leading question, another from you. I'm not loathe to have pressure applied to me. It would just not be conducive to my ability to play and learn Mafia.
Also, Really? " it's clear that by "slip-up" I meant mistake, since I applied it to townies" I actually went back and found the exact quote to show that it was in direct reference to scum!I don't try to play the "well I did say 'without the added pressure of having to be an antagonist'" because guess what? Scum is fond of these little subtle hints of being town, to get suspicion away from them.So I take it from your answers that you'd dislike being scum, for the reason that you'd be bad at it? If you had to be scum, what do you think you'd find most interesting about it?Not necessarily that I'd be bad at it. I've made a bunch of slip ups already without the added pressure of having to be an antagonist. But the extra pressure certainly wouldn't help.
The most interesting part I think would be the first and second day, where the scum are too outnumbered to swing a lynch vote and has to play smart to convince other people. That seems to be where the meat of basic scum gameplay is at.
would really only serve to benefit scum through causing chaos and distrust and WIFOM.What I said was the truth. If you are going to refuse to listen to the truth, then you're not going to get an answer you're happy with. You aren't going to get very far if whenever you hear something that isn't incriminating you just insist that really, deep down, it means I'm scum. And you do that with everything. "You did a scummy thing? SCUM! You didn't do a scummy thing? SCUM!" According to you I am simultaneously a bumbling scum who drops clues left and right, while simultaneously being subtle and lurking. You pick up on individual points, but never put them all into a whole. So come on then, if I'm scum, what's my game plan? My overarching MO? Or of course you could take the easy way out and say something like "Well it was your plan to look less suspicious by acting in different ways."
I would like you to acknowledge that I have answered the questions, regardless of whether or not you're pleased with what the answers are. At least be honest about it rather than just repeatedly saying that I'm dodging the questions.As with all of these "not answering my question"s you've been getting so excited over, with the first two (the third was actually a question I didn't answer) it seems like you just want a specific answer. When you get tired of this ridiculous song-and-dance, would you like to tell me what it is? Really, you've dug up a few things you don't like, demanded an explanation, then when you get the explanation you just ask for it again.No, I'm not demanding re-explanations, I'm demanding that you stop dodging the questions! And I like how you repeated attempt to call all of my attempts to get anything out of you "ridiculous", I take it that you'd rather me simply back off? Leave you alone? Pretend it never happened?
OMGUS has a negative connotation. Do not use it as anything in casual chatter. Why are you and he talking about these promises as of late? There are guarantees wherein you'd both be ending up doing something? (ie vote)I know that it has a negative connotation. But he really did promise to OMGUS me shortly after I voted him.
I have to go now, but I'll tell you now that Graknorke is my next target.
Hey Darkpaladin109, I don't think we ever did get to hear your reads on other players? Would you share those with us please....That doesn't necessarily mean OMGUS. Saying who his next target is, means that he has some sort of suspicion on said target.OMGUS has a negative connotation. Do not use it as anything in casual chatter. Why are you and he talking about these promises as of late? There are guarantees wherein you'd both be ending up doing something? (ie vote)I know that it has a negative connotation. But he really did promise to OMGUS me shortly after I voted him.I have to go now, but I'll tell you now that Graknorke is my next target.
You realize that we don't really have any limits on extensions, right?
Jim: Could you mark who asked for an extension in your votecounts? Thanks!
Didn't need to, he'd already acknowledged that my attack on him was legitimate and that he "deserved to be pressured" for it.Hey Darkpaladin109, I don't think we ever did get to hear your reads on other players? Would you share those with us please....That doesn't necessarily mean OMGUS. Saying who his next target is, means that he has some sort of suspicion on said target.OMGUS has a negative connotation. Do not use it as anything in casual chatter. Why are you and he talking about these promises as of late? There are guarantees wherein you'd both be ending up doing something? (ie vote)I know that it has a negative connotation. But he really did promise to OMGUS me shortly after I voted him.I have to go now, but I'll tell you now that Graknorke is my next target.
Did you inquire about the matter with him?
I was considering voting for Graknorke, as he is jumping on me for accusing 4mask, but his concerns are legitimate and I deserve to be pressured for that one.This is a confession that he didn't have a legitimate problem with what I was pressuring him over, so the only conclusion I can draw from that is that he wanted to vote me for pressuring him at all.
For the ICs: if you were scum and people told you who they think that's going to get killed, what would you do?I would go after dangerous town players regardless of what people said, but I'd try to NK someone unexpected if possible.
I personally think that scum could use that info to get the town into a massive WIFOM and drive everyone nuts.
3.Mastah seems fairly town, Darkpaladin has nothing to read, LARD's getting scumhunted pretty hard and is taking it well, and TDS also seems town. The four I mentioned weren't being attacked at the time, and I plan on rereading their posts for anything suspicious.Quote from: PersusI plan to keep a close eye on Graknorke, Solymr, Tiruin, and you, especially, for closer scanning, and as possible scum suspects. My reads I gave to Mastahcheese and my thoughts on the current dogpile on LARD are already stated.Why these particular four, may I ask?
4.True, maybe going with the flow is a better term.Quote from: PersusAppears to be bandwagoning on LARD with a ambiguous reason: "pretty much everything he says points to scum", medium scum lean.I have never seen the word bandwagon used before in reference to a FoS.
Possibly. I tend to not like going along with the main D1 lynch, as it usually hits town, and I prefer to hunt the hunters. And scum can try and lynch someone else if there scum buddy is in for a lynch. So if no one's pushing a case against someone else during a lynch, I get a little nervous D1.So LARD is town and scum is trying to get a mislynch on him?Not comfortable at all. The fact that everyone is currently piling on him makes me think either Tiruin or DP is his partner, or that he's town and scum are trying to Mislynch. Given that its Day 1, I'm going with the latter.
Everyone, how comfortable do you feel with a lynch at this point?
I'd like to hear more about your opinion on that. Do you think that any of the scum are voting for LARD? One or both? Considering that there's only 3 people currently voting for him, there aren't too many choices you could make.
I didn't actually vote for LardYou FOSed him and you haven't voted for anyone. I took that to be similar to a vote. Use your vote hen you can, it actually has power. The blue made you look like you were committing as little as possible, so that you could creep away later.
I'm only going to refer to the most recent ones since it's getting late here.Are you sure the first link leads to the right post? Maybe if you used quotes it would have been better?
Here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=136649.msg5045307#msg5045307) in this post I asked him for an explanation and still hasn't answered, even when he posted later. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=136649.msg5046567#msg5046567)
I may give him a pass on this if he answers later.
Now there is something that doesn't add up about your last statement. If those four are suspects of bandwagoning Lard, why did you exclude TDS, who also voted for him?Because they're not suspects of bandwagoning LARD, they're people I need to look into more.
Here are my questions to Persus13 (partly based on what has been said):Ambiguous reasoning and his FoS makes it look like he's trying to commit as little as possible. Also, he was the last on the LARD is scummy, band wagon.
1. Why do you consider Solymr's FoS worse than the three other people who have actually voted? Sure, he doesn't have a reason to vote, but he never voted in the first place. FoSing is for pointing out who you think might be scum. It's still odd, of course, but it's only one small thing - not really enough to make him likely scum unless more evidence turns up.
2. How is LARD considered only slightly scummy for what he has done while Darkpaladin is considered a "larger scum lead" for simply being new and lurking?That's both me being annoyed at him for not posting anything of value and refusing to learn how to play. He could easily lurk his way to victory if he's scum. Also, he seems like he has something to hide.
3. Why exactly do you think that LARD is not scum? You have stated that it's Day 1, but what does that have to do with it?Because I'm looking the way the votes lie, and no one was pushing an alternative to a LARD lynch at the time.
4. Most importantly, you have stated that you want to extend due to a lack of consensus. However, this makes no sense when you see that you call the LARD votes a "dogpile". When you look at that vote count, it's 3 votes for LARD and one vote on DP109 and you each (but those might be pressure votes). I don't see how an extend will change the situation very much; mind clarifying?5 people have voted, and I don't know how serious 4 of those votes are. I wouldn't call that consensus. However, there was this one span of posts that was just people voting or FoSing LARD.
Ah, the CheeseMeister is back.tunnel vision? I don't really remember that from him. He seemed focused on makeinu when we lynched makeinu, but not tunneling.
Mastahcheese: Do you believe that either of the IC's is possibly scum, looking at the day so far.
Also, where's the tunnel vision that characterized you in the last BM?
For the record, I didn't miss Solymr's question, I just posted my last post in a rush and left that off.Then I retract my statement. My apologies, that's what I've heard it being called.For the ICs: if you were scum and people told you who they think that's going to get killed, what would you do?I would go after dangerous town players regardless of what people said, but I'd try to NK someone unexpected if possible.
I personally think that scum could use that info to get the town into a massive WIFOM and drive everyone nuts.3.Mastah seems fairly town, Darkpaladin has nothing to read, LARD's getting scumhunted pretty hard and is taking it well, and TDS also seems town. The four I mentioned weren't being attacked at the time, and I plan on rereading their posts for anything suspicious.Quote from: PersusI plan to keep a close eye on Graknorke, Solymr, Tiruin, and you, especially, for closer scanning, and as possible scum suspects. My reads I gave to Mastahcheese and my thoughts on the current dogpile on LARD are already stated.Why these particular four, may I ask?4.True, maybe going with the flow is a better term.Quote from: PersusAppears to be bandwagoning on LARD with a ambiguous reason: "pretty much everything he says points to scum", medium scum lean.I have never seen the word bandwagon used before in reference to a FoS.Possibly. I tend to not like going along with the main D1 lynch, as it usually hits town, and I prefer to hunt the hunters. And scum can try and lynch someone else if there scum buddy is in for a lynch. So if no one's pushing a case against someone else during a lynch, I get a little nervous D1.So LARD is town and scum is trying to get a mislynch on him?Not comfortable at all. The fact that everyone is currently piling on him makes me think either Tiruin or DP is his partner, or that he's town and scum are trying to Mislynch. Given that its Day 1, I'm going with the latter.
Everyone, how comfortable do you feel with a lynch at this point?
I'd like to hear more about your opinion on that. Do you think that any of the scum are voting for LARD? One or both? Considering that there's only 3 people currently voting for him, there aren't too many choices you could make.I didn't actually vote for LardYou FOSed him and you haven't voted for anyone. I took that to be similar to a vote. Use your vote hen you can, it actually has power. The blue made you look like you were committing as little as possible, so that you could creep away later.I'm only going to refer to the most recent ones since it's getting late here.Are you sure the first link leads to the right post? Maybe if you used quotes it would have been better?
Here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=136649.msg5045307#msg5045307) in this post I asked him for an explanation and still hasn't answered, even when he posted later. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=136649.msg5046567#msg5046567)
I may give him a pass on this if he answers later.Now there is something that doesn't add up about your last statement. If those four are suspects of bandwagoning Lard, why did you exclude TDS, who also voted for him?Because they're not suspects of bandwagoning LARD, they're people I need to look into more.Here are my questions to Persus13 (partly based on what has been said):Ambiguous reasoning and his FoS makes it look like he's trying to commit as little as possible. Also, he was the last on the LARD is scummy, band wagon.
1. Why do you consider Solymr's FoS worse than the three other people who have actually voted? Sure, he doesn't have a reason to vote, but he never voted in the first place. FoSing is for pointing out who you think might be scum. It's still odd, of course, but it's only one small thing - not really enough to make him likely scum unless more evidence turns up.2. How is LARD considered only slightly scummy for what he has done while Darkpaladin is considered a "larger scum lead" for simply being new and lurking?That's both me being annoyed at him for not posting anything of value and refusing to learn how to play. He could easily lurk his way to victory if he's scum. Also, he seems like he has something to hide.3. Why exactly do you think that LARD is not scum? You have stated that it's Day 1, but what does that have to do with it?Because I'm looking the way the votes lie, and no one was pushing an alternative to a LARD lynch at the time.4. Most importantly, you have stated that you want to extend due to a lack of consensus. However, this makes no sense when you see that you call the LARD votes a "dogpile". When you look at that vote count, it's 3 votes for LARD and one vote on DP109 and you each (but those might be pressure votes). I don't see how an extend will change the situation very much; mind clarifying?5 people have voted, and I don't know how serious 4 of those votes are. I wouldn't call that consensus. However, there was this one span of posts that was just people voting or FoSing LARD.Ah, the CheeseMeister is back.tunnel vision? I don't really remember that from him. He seemed focused on makeinu when we lynched makeinu, but not tunneling.
Mastahcheese: Do you believe that either of the IC's is possibly scum, looking at the day so far.
Also, where's the tunnel vision that characterized you in the last BM?
So your answer here is "I don't think anyone cares, so therefore, I shouldn't have to answer"?That is the answer I gave at the time. You can say that it's invalid all you want (ironically enough), but that doesn't change the fact that it was an answer.I like how you trimmed your part of the post to imitate an answer, but the particular part to trim it to is the part I have already stated as being completely invalid. I'm going to listen. I have been listening. The fact that you are attempting to stall your responses for as long as possible does wonders to your attempt to convince me that you aren't scum.Really?why did you not answer my question?Why do you care about what I do or don't like?saying something is well and truly useless if nobody listens.
[1,2] Alright, I can accept this now, you finally actually gave a real answer. You said "I deemed it not worth following that set of questions" and opposed to "It's not important", which is an excuse, not an answer. So I'm actually good with this one, now.[1] No, that is not what I'm saying. I'm saying that if you find some something suspicious, you shouldn't just be willing to cast that out at a moment's notice. Regardless of what is considered normal or not, if something sets off a bell, then you pursue it. If the only thing you ever went off of was what you believed to be fact, then what is even the point in talking?[1&2] At the time, I deemed it not worth following that set of questions, because it could so easily be explained away. If you don't agree then you can, but I decided that line of inquiry wouldn't actually turn up anything meaningful. I suppose that were I to be in that position again, I would try a related question rather than just stopping.
[2] Everything is important! Whether it looks like it or not, it is! If it was just a simple mistake, then did you learn anything from it?
[3] This, is once again deflection. Rather then continuing the line the subject is on, you are attempting to change it. That is still a scum tactic.
[3]No, I did mean the same subject. You said that I didn't place much weight in my suspicions and changed my mind often, and when I explained the example chosen, you said I hadn't answered your question. I was simply suggesting that you find another example of the same thing if you weren't satisfied with the explanation for that particular example.
[1] So you'll allow LARD to be as transparent as "Graknorke is my next target" and you won't bat an eye, and I say my thought on the way you're acting, and suddenly you feel the need to attack it? Is this really what I'm hearing from you?The mentioning of feelings isn't an attempt at incrimination, trying to claim that I'm not scumhunting is, when I clearly have been by talking to you. So tell me then, which part of what I said in the above quote did you consider to be nothing but "feelings"? Since you failed to specify. Also since you appear to be under the belief that my request in an impossibility, how many games of Mafia have you read? Because my request is by no means at all an uncommon one, nor one that never gets answered.[1] The part where you said "something is off about you". It didn't actually add anything other than making you sound like you had more than a couple of things I said and you didn't like. Like how a pigeon puffs out its chest, something insubstantial but it makes you look bigger anyway.
[2] It well and truly is impossible to prove that I'm town. I could argue it, but there's no absolute proof. There wouldn't be much of a game if there was. And past that, I suppose I fell into that most criminal of acts of assuming what someone's response will be. Though I don't think my assumptions were entirely misplaced, given 4mask's earlier mention of your propensity for tunnel-vision.I find it hard to believe that you wouldn't take anything I said as a scum tell in some way. I'll elaborate on that later in the post.
[1] You make a valid point, by deliberately ignoring the actual statement and instead only focusing on the last part. So you still want to claim that what you said was in reference to town? Because I just disproved you with that quote, and you never even challenged it. I just proved you lied. My question was entirely about scum, and you just said that your response pertained to town.I'm sorry, I'm not quite understanding what you are meaning by "leading question", this is the second time you've used it, and I fail to grasp you are referencing with it.[1] Firstly, that is just begging WIFOM. "I can tell you're scum because you're acting like you're town." That is thinking that
Also, Really? " it's clear that by "slip-up" I meant mistake, since I applied it to townies" I actually went back and found the exact quote to show that it was in direct reference to scum!I don't try to play the "well I did say 'without the added pressure of having to be an antagonist'" because guess what? Scum is fond of these little subtle hints of being town, to get suspicion away from them.So I take it from your answers that you'd dislike being scum, for the reason that you'd be bad at it? If you had to be scum, what do you think you'd find most interesting about it?Not necessarily that I'd be bad at it. I've made a bunch of slip ups already without the added pressure of having to be an antagonist. But the extra pressure certainly wouldn't help.
The most interesting part I think would be the first and second day, where the scum are too outnumbered to swing a lynch vote and has to play smart to convince other people. That seems to be where the meat of basic scum gameplay is at.would really only serve to benefit scum through causing chaos and distrust and WIFOM.[2] What I said was the truth. If you are going to refuse to listen to the truth, then you're not going to get an answer you're happy with. You aren't going to get very far if whenever you hear something that isn't incriminating you just insist that really, deep down, it means I'm scum. And you do that with everything. "You did a scummy thing? SCUM! You didn't do a scummy thing? SCUM!" According to you I am simultaneously a bumbling scum who drops clues left and right, while simultaneously being subtle and lurking. You pick up on individual points, but never put them all into a whole.So come on then, [3] if I'm scum, what's my game plan? My overarching MO? [4] Or of course you could take the easy way out and say something like "Well it was your plan to look less suspicious by acting in different ways."
A leading question is one that expects a certain answer, such as something that starts with, "Don't you think". More context relevant would be "How/why did you do..." because it assumes that you did do that thing at all. In this case it was "Why are you loathe to have pressure applied to you?"
You have answered most of the questions. I'll admit that, but I've even explained prior in this post that you have not answered all the questions.I would like you to acknowledge that I have answered the questions, regardless of whether or not you're pleased with what the answers are. At least be honest about it rather than just repeatedly saying that I'm dodging the questions.As with all of these "not answering my question"s you've been getting so excited over, with the first two (the third was actually a question I didn't answer) it seems like you just want a specific answer. When you get tired of this ridiculous song-and-dance, would you like to tell me what it is? Really, you've dug up a few things you don't like, demanded an explanation, then when you get the explanation you just ask for it again.No, I'm not demanding re-explanations, I'm demanding that you stop dodging the questions! And I like how you repeated attempt to call all of my attempts to get anything out of you "ridiculous", I take it that you'd rather me simply back off? Leave you alone? Pretend it never happened?
[...]After what he has said? I believe him to be under suspect but not necessarily scum-though more on the scale for me given how I view personalism--it has no context nor no hold when you speak before any other information, external or not regarding you, is given. It speaks more of self-centeredness than anything else or concern for the self over others--something which I have to say, is not a symbol of being a towny (unless special certain power role) and even then, it is not a good sign of such people due to numerical equivalence and the note of the many others around you in the same process of finding and searching.
Unvote Persus
Tiruin: After what LARD has said, do you still believe him to be scum? If so, why?
4maskI'm sure there are. That would also require me to go back and find things and...[...]After what he has said? I believe him to be under suspect but not necessarily scum-though more on the scale for me given how I view personalism--it has no context nor no hold when you speak before any other information, external or not regarding you, is given. It speaks more of self-centeredness than anything else or concern for the self over others--something which I have to say, is not a symbol of being a towny (unless special certain power role) and even then, it is not a good sign of such people due to numerical equivalence and the note of the many others around you in the same process of finding and searching.
Unvote Persus
Tiruin: After what LARD has said, do you still believe him to be scum? If so, why?
What about you? Other than Persus, aren't there other leads for you to pursue?
After reading the last several pages, I'm going to unvote LARD. He answered my questions, and he seems to be more inexperienced than scum. I'll have questions for people tomorrow once I've read over everyone'sDifferentiate 'inexperienced' from scum (and town, for that matter). It seems more like you judge him as a whole rather than how he did back there.walls of textposts.
[1] Mastahcheese, can you briefly summarize your case on Graknorke, [2] and whether or not you think he should be the day 1 lynch today, and [3] why you seem to think that no one else's posts are worthy of your attention?[1] My case on Graknorke is, basically, that he's been asking questions that would provide a larger benefit to scum than town, he's been failing to answer my questions, under the guise of giving what amounts to non-answers. He has adopted a rather aggressive tone from my questioning. And overall he seems to be more interested in downgrading other's attempts at scumhunting, or deflecting the question, rather than try to defend himself in a logical manner. As well as repeatedly adding statements that serve no purpose other than to cause doubt and speculation.
No, that's the answer to the question. If you remember, this whole thing started with me holding off on sharing a read of Persus13. The reason I didn't is because I was reasonably sure that what I had to say about him wouldn't be heard or cared about. I don't know how I can make this any more clear. I am not saying that you would not care about my answer to your question, I am saying that I did not think anyone would care about what I thought about Persus.So your answer here is "I don't think anyone cares, so therefore, I shouldn't have to answer"?I like how you trimmed your part of the post to imitate an answer, but the particular part to trim it to is the part I have already stated as being completely invalid. I'm going to listen. I have been listening. The fact that you are attempting to stall your responses for as long as possible does wonders to your attempt to convince me that you aren't scum.That is the answer I gave at the time. You can say that it's invalid all you want (ironically enough), but that doesn't change the fact that it was an answer.
Are you absolutely serious? And you don't view this as dodging a question? If you asked me a question, and I replied with "You don't care about the answer, anyway", you would not find this suspicious at all? Are you dead serious?
You know what? No. It's not invalid. It's utterly stupid to believe that anyone would accept crap like that as an acceptable answer. You can't just ignore someone's question, and believe that the person who asked the question just won't give a shit about it.
That's now how it seemed to me. I was offering you an explanation of the question using another example, because the explanation for the example you'd already chosen wasn't enough for you. Except now you're okay with some slightly different wording and elaboration, so I suppose that offer was unnecessary.[3] You're still asking me to change the subject. Saying "this example is no good, bring me a new one" is not staying on the same subject, because now you're trying to change the context in which the subject resides.[3] This, is once again deflection. Rather then continuing the line the subject is on, you are attempting to change it. That is still a scum tactic.[3]No, I did mean the same subject. You said that I didn't place much weight in my suspicions and changed my mind often, and when I explained the example chosen, you said I hadn't answered your question. I was simply suggesting that you find another example of the same thing if you weren't satisfied with the explanation for that particular example.
[1]I was hoping for him to follow up on that threat so that I could go through with that rather than scare him off straight away. But then he stopped posting for some 60 hours and after that there had enough inbetween that the momentum had gone. As for saying that you weren't scumhunting, that was a mistake on my part. It was far too sweeping of an accusation, for what was a minor, and hypocritical, complaint.[1] So you'll allow LARD to be as transparent as "Graknorke is my next target" and you won't bat an eye, and I say my thought on the way you're acting, and suddenly you feel the need to attack it? Is this really what I'm hearing from you?The mentioning of feelings isn't an attempt at incrimination, trying to claim that I'm not scumhunting is, when I clearly have been by talking to you. So tell me then, which part of what I said in the above quote did you consider to be nothing but "feelings"? Since you failed to specify. Also since you appear to be under the belief that my request in an impossibility, how many games of Mafia have you read? Because my request is by no means at all an uncommon one, nor one that never gets answered.[1] The part where you said "something is off about you". It didn't actually add anything other than making you sound like you had more than a couple of things I said and you didn't like. Like how a pigeon puffs out its chest, something insubstantial but it makes you look bigger anyway.
[2] It well and truly is impossible to prove that I'm town. I could argue it, but there's no absolute proof. There wouldn't be much of a game if there was. And past that, I suppose I fell into that most criminal of acts of assuming what someone's response will be. Though I don't think my assumptions were entirely misplaced, given 4mask's earlier mention of your propensity for tunnel-vision.I find it hard to believe that you wouldn't take anything I said as a scum tell in some way. I'll elaborate on that later in the post.
[2] You don't have to prove, you just need to convince. The only way to prove it is to get you killed, I'm asking for you to not make me feel like we need to go that far, and you're refusing to even attempt it, instead by saying "Your request is impossible!"
[1] You make a valid point, by deliberately ignoring the actual statement and instead only focusing on the last part. So you still want to claim that what you said was in reference to town? Because I just disproved you with that quote, and you never even challenged it. I just proved you lied. My question was entirely about scum, and you just said that your response pertained to town.I'm sorry, I'm not quite understanding what you are meaning by "leading question", this is the second time you've used it, and I fail to grasp you are referencing with it.[1] Firstly, that is just begging WIFOM. "I can tell you're scum because you're acting like you're town." That is thinking that
Also, Really? " it's clear that by "slip-up" I meant mistake, since I applied it to townies" I actually went back and found the exact quote to show that it was in direct reference to scum!I don't try to play the "well I did say 'without the added pressure of having to be an antagonist'" because guess what? Scum is fond of these little subtle hints of being town, to get suspicion away from them.So I take it from your answers that you'd dislike being scum, for the reason that you'd be bad at it? If you had to be scum, what do you think you'd find most interesting about it?Not necessarily that I'd be bad at it. I've made a bunch of slip ups already without the added pressure of having to be an antagonist. But the extra pressure certainly wouldn't help.
The most interesting part I think would be the first and second day, where the scum are too outnumbered to swing a lynch vote and has to play smart to convince other people. That seems to be where the meat of basic scum gameplay is at.would really only serve to benefit scum through causing chaos and distrust and WIFOM.[2] What I said was the truth. If you are going to refuse to listen to the truth, then you're not going to get an answer you're happy with. You aren't going to get very far if whenever you hear something that isn't incriminating you just insist that really, deep down, it means I'm scum. And you do that with everything. "You did a scummy thing? SCUM! You didn't do a scummy thing? SCUM!" According to you I am simultaneously a bumbling scum who drops clues left and right, while simultaneously being subtle and lurking. You pick up on individual points, but never put them all into a whole.So come on then, [3] if I'm scum, what's my game plan? My overarching MO? [4] Or of course you could take the easy way out and say something like "Well it was your plan to look less suspicious by acting in different ways."
A leading question is one that expects a certain answer, such as something that starts with, "Don't you think". More context relevant would be "How/why did you do..." because it assumes that you did do that thing at all. In this case it was "Why are you loathe to have pressure applied to you?"
After reading the preceding posts, I'm gonna go ahead and go with LARD.WHy are you voting LARD? Please back up your posts with evidence.
And a question back to you, could you summarize your case on darkpaladin109? Do you believe he should be the Day 1 lynch?My vote on Darkpaladin is trying to get him to make longer posts. That tactic is failing, but if he's going to lurk without asking for a replacement, I'm fine with lynching him today, instead of at lylo.
Alright, I am kinda new towards this game, but I think my logic was a bit faulty when selecting LARD, so UNVOTE LARD. I really only selected him because I didn't know how much time was left in the day and saw another player's argument in why he was voted. After some thinking, I have decided to go with Persus13. Like what LARD said before, you seem to put yourself in a mentor position above us. I think this is a good enough reason.I'd like you to take more time to read the game OP. I'm acting as a mentor, because that's my job.
Alright, I am kinda new towards this game, but I think my logic was a bit faulty when selecting LARD, so UNVOTE LARD. I really only selected him because I didn't know how much time was left in the day and saw another player's argument in why he was voted. After some thinking, I have decided to go with Persus13. Like what LARD said before, you seem to put yourself in a mentor position above us. I think this is a good enough reason.Persus is an IC. It's literally his job to do that.
I know, I read the OP. But I think you are using that to win. If I was IC I could win the game easier by letting the players think I'm pointing in the right direction but really I'm not. And that wouldn't be not doing your job because we would learn from that. I think I have already.
Regardless of their alignment, they are obligated to provide you with genuine advice, so that even if you don't trust the IC, you can trust the advice they give.
I know, I read the OP. But I think you are using that to win. If I was IC I could win the game easier by letting the players think I'm pointing in the right direction but really I'm not. And that wouldn't be not doing your job because we would learn from that. I think I have already.Quick query for you: Why are you being so jumpy, and assuming forthright before anything?
This was a question. I fail to see any wrong here.After reading the preceding posts, I'm gonna go ahead and go with LARD.WHy are you voting LARD? Please back up your posts with evidence.
Alright, I am kinda new towards this game, but I think my logic was a bit faulty when selecting LARD, so UNVOTE LARD. I really only selected him because I didn't know how much time was left in the day and saw another player's argument in why he was voted. After some thinking, I have decided to go with Persus13. Like what LARD said before, you seem to put yourself in a mentor position above us. I think this is a good enough reason.Now another query: Mentor position? He asked a question towards you, which your point being a bandwagon just to see the lynch come, right?
I know, I read the OP. But I think you are using that to win. If I was IC I could win the game easier by letting the players think I'm pointing in the right direction but really I'm not. And that wouldn't be not doing your job because we would learn from that. I think I have already.Why are you seeing wrong when there is none?
I read the rest of the game before even posting the first time, its not like I jumped in without knowing what's going on.I know, I read the OP. But I think you are using that to win. If I was IC I could win the game easier by letting the players think I'm pointing in the right direction but really I'm not. And that wouldn't be not doing your job because we would learn from that. I think I have already.Quick query for you: Why are you being so jumpy, and assuming forthright before anything?
Guess what.This was a question. I fail to see any wrong here.After reading the preceding posts, I'm gonna go ahead and go with LARD.WHy are you voting LARD? Please back up your posts with evidence.Alright, I am kinda new towards this game, but I think my logic was a bit faulty when selecting LARD, so UNVOTE LARD. I really only selected him because I didn't know how much time was left in the day and saw another player's argument in why he was voted. After some thinking, I have decided to go with Persus13. Like what LARD said before, you seem to put yourself in a mentor position above us. I think this is a good enough reason.Now another query: Mentor position? He asked a question towards you, which your point being a bandwagon just to see the lynch come, right?
Epichighfive321, tell me:I know, I read the OP. But I think you are using that to win. If I was IC I could win the game easier by letting the players think I'm pointing in the right direction but really I'm not. And that wouldn't be not doing your job because we would learn from that. I think I have already.Why are you seeing wrong when there is none?
I read the rest of the game before even posting the first time, its not like I jumped in without knowing what's going on.Back up your gloating then.
Well that teaches me to not preview before posting.I read the rest of the game before even posting the first time, its not like I jumped in without knowing what's going on.Alright then, you're replacing Solymr's position, but you aren't Solymr.
What are your scum reads? I don't want Solymr's, I want yours, after you're read through what currently exists of the game.
No, that's the answer to the question. If you remember, this whole thing started with me holding off on sharing a read of Persus13. The reason I didn't is because I was reasonably sure that what I had to say about him wouldn't be heard or cared about. I don't know how I can make this any more clear. I am not saying that you would not care about my answer to your question, I am saying that I did not think anyone would care about what I thought about Persus.Alright, I can accept this part now, but you should still answer questions when they're asked, even if you don't think the answer would mean much. The simple fact of whether or not the questions is answered at all is often times more important than the answer that is provided.
I bolded the "elaboration" part because that's really what made me willing to accept it. Giving a vague answer that doesn't provide information isn't sufficient, and harping on about how "I did answer it" doesn't help. You elaborated, and now it actually provides the information I asked for so long ago.[3] You're still asking me to change the subject. Saying "this example is no good, bring me a new one" is not staying on the same subject, because now you're trying to change the context in which the subject resides.That's now how it seemed to me. I was offering you an explanation of the question using another example, because the explanation for the example you'd already chosen wasn't enough for you. Except now you're okay with some slightly different wording and elaboration, so I suppose that offer was unnecessary.
[1] I can understand the reluctance to continue after momentum has passed, as attempting to re-initiate something like that would quickly become cumbersome.[1] So you'll allow LARD to be as transparent as "Graknorke is my next target" and you won't bat an eye, and I say my thought on the way you're acting, and suddenly you feel the need to attack it? Is this really what I'm hearing from you?[1]I was hoping for him to follow up on that threat so that I could go through with that rather than scare him off straight away. But then he stopped posting for some 60 hours and after that there had enough inbetween that the momentum had gone. As for saying that you weren't scumhunting, that was a mistake on my part. It was far too sweeping of an accusation, for what was a minor, and hypocritical, complaint.
[2] You don't have to prove, you just need to convince. The only way to prove it is to get you killed, I'm asking for you to not make me feel like we need to go that far, and you're refusing to even attempt it, instead by saying "Your request is impossible!"
[2]So what kinds of things would convince you then? I'm guessing it's not to do with what I've actually posted in the past but how I present it, since you could go through my posts if you want. Okay, I can try and be convincing. I won't be putting it in this post, but I'll have something by the end of the day.
[1] Um, no, that is a blatant jump to a conclusion, as well as completely misinterpreting the context. You are once again attempt to skew the topic by only acknowledging one part of a multi-part subject.Quote from: mastahcheese link=topic=136649.msg5056756#msg5056756 date=13938980[quote author=Graknorke
[1You make a valid point, by deliberately ignoring the actual statement and instead only focusing on the last part. So you still want to claim that what you said was in reference to town? Because I just disproved you with that quote, and you never even challenged it. I just proved you lied. My question was entirely about scum, and you just said that your response pertained to town.[1]If you agree that I made a good point, then you also agree that you didn't "disprove" anything. My post stands as pertaining to town if we don't discredit your argument that it looking like town is a scum ploy.
[2] This huge portion can easily be summarized into "I'm town and you'll just have to believe me." Which holds no sway in any case at all. And then just a but further into it you begin to outright insult me.
[Bold] Are you intentionally enticing me to attack you? You've been passive-aggressive for a good while now, as I pointed out earlier, and you keep going further and further into it.
[3] Well, scum usually go about by killing townies in the night, and trying to get town to mislynch during the day, so I'd say that's your overarching plan. The individual details could all vary from person to person, so it's not exactly like I can read your mind. So I'll ask the question back to you. What is your game plan?
[4] I find it ironic that you post this right before your definition of a "leading question", in that it is basically already assuming my response, which, as you say, a leading question would imply.
[2]It's not so much "you have to believe me" as it is "This all there is". You're not going to get a drastic change in what my answers are just by asking over and over. Maybe slight differences in wording like earlier, but nothing like spontaneously confessing to be scum because you keep asking me about the phrase "slip up".
[bold]I didn't think I need to entice you to attack me. And passive-aggressive isn't unusual for me, if you want me to keep it in check I can try, but I thought you'd prefer as little revision as possible in posts.
[3]That's a little vague, considering how much you were acting like you thought was scummy, but I'll bite. I was hoping for someone to be more obviously scummy on day 1, or at least more receptive to discussion and active. As it is, people have mostly just exchanged pleasantries and then sat back complacent. I thought I was at least onto something with LARD, but I'm not sure where I can go with it now. Then there's 4mask who has been poking at various people enough that I think he's town, TDS who hasn't made a vote yet, you who I think has taken actions that it wouldn't make sense for scum to take (going after me when it would be easy to let LARD or darkpaladin get lynched), and darkpaladin and Solymr who I don't think have been posting enough, which annoys me. So I feel at a bit of a dead end.
[4]A leading question assumes a certain answer as part of the question. What I posted was just an admittedly useless and inflammatory comment.
And mastahcheese, I think it's a bit of a leap to say that I'm "trying to cause confusion and doubt". You're the only person who's expressed that sentiment so far, I'd say it's a problem with you understanding what I type rather than my intent.Just because I'm the only one to express that view point, don't mean that it couldn't serve that purpose.
After reading the last several pages, I'm going to unvote LARD. He answered my questions, and he seems to be more inexperienced than scum. I'll have questions for people tomorrow once I've read over everyone'sDifferentiate 'inexperienced' from scum (and town, for that matter). It seems more like you judge him as a whole rather than how he did back there.walls of textposts.
mastahcheese: Can you sum up your arguments against Grak? It's really annoying to go through every bit of text that you and Grak write.Persus asked the same question, here is my reply to it.
It's still basically the same stuff, but I'm starting to actually get some answers out of him that actually provide information.[1] Mastahcheese, can you briefly summarize your case on Graknorke, [2] and whether or not you think he should be the day 1 lynch today, and [3] why you seem to think that no one else's posts are worthy of your attention?[1] My case on Graknorke is, basically, that he's been asking questions that would provide a larger benefit to scum than town, he's been failing to answer my questions, under the guise of giving what amounts to non-answers. He has adopted a rather aggressive tone from my questioning. And overall he seems to be more interested in downgrading other's attempts at scumhunting, or deflecting the question, rather than try to defend himself in a logical manner. As well as repeatedly adding statements that serve no purpose other than to cause doubt and speculation.
[2] Yes, I think he should, he seems to be trying to cause confusion and doubt, which will only get worse the longer the days go on.
[3] I don't think they are unworthy of attention, I've just failed to see where I could really contribute to those discussions. Did I miss a question aimed at me? But I have been reading them.
If I were scum, I would play to win. However I would not do that by giving bad advice. Everything I say in italics you can trust. What I say outside of italics is up for you to decide.While this doesn't directly count as evidence it is just confirming the point I made previously,
I know, I read the OP. But I think you are using that to win. If I was IC I could win the game easier by letting the players think I'm pointing in the right direction but really I'm not. And that wouldn't be not doing your job because we would learn from that. I think I have already.
Sorry, I clicked post instead of preview, What I meant to say before posting was that based on that and a possible hunch, I'm sticking with my vote.And what is this hunch?
[1]I notice now that I put a negative in there that shouldn't be, but you probably noticed that. Otherwise, what I said makes sense to me. Your original argument was along the lines of: "You said you had "slipped up" earlier, and this is a phrase used in Mafia to refer to showing scumtells. You claim that you said it in a more general definition referring to mistakes and that it could also apply to town, however I do not think that is the case. When you said 'without the added pressure of being scum', *that could have been a scum move to make you appear town*."[1] Um, no, that is a blatant jump to a conclusion, as well as completely misinterpreting the context. You are once again attempt to skew the topic by only acknowledging one part of a multi-part subject.[1] You make a valid point, by deliberately ignoring the actual statement and instead only focusing on the last part. So you still want to claim that what you said was in reference to town? Because I just disproved you with that quote, and you never even challenged it. I just proved you lied. My question was entirely about scum, and you just said that your response pertained to town.[1]If you agree that I made a good point, then you also agree that you didn't "disprove" anything. My post stands as pertaining to town if we don't discredit your argument that it looking like town is a scum ploy.
[2] This huge portion can easily be summarized into "I'm town and you'll just have to believe me." Which holds no sway in any case at all. And then just a but further into it you begin to outright insult me.
[Bold] Are you intentionally enticing me to attack you? You've been passive-aggressive for a good while now, as I pointed out earlier, and you keep going further and further into it.
[3] Well, scum usually go about by killing townies in the night, and trying to get town to mislynch during the day, so I'd say that's your overarching plan. The individual details could all vary from person to person, so it's not exactly like I can read your mind. So I'll ask the question back to you. What is your game plan?
[4] I find it ironic that you post this right before your definition of a "leading question", in that it is basically already assuming my response, which, as you say, a leading question would imply.
[2]It's not so much "you have to believe me" as it is "This all there is". You're not going to get a drastic change in what my answers are just by asking over and over. Maybe slight differences in wording like earlier, but nothing like spontaneously confessing to be scum because you keep asking me about the phrase "slip up".
[bold]I didn't think I need to entice you to attack me. And passive-aggressive isn't unusual for me, if you want me to keep it in check I can try, but I thought you'd prefer as little revision as possible in posts.
[3]That's a little vague, considering how much you were acting like you thought was scummy, but I'll bite. I was hoping for someone to be more obviously scummy on day 1, or at least more receptive to discussion and active. As it is, people have mostly just exchanged pleasantries and then sat back complacent. I thought I was at least onto something with LARD, but I'm not sure where I can go with it now. Then there's 4mask who has been poking at various people enough that I think he's town, TDS who hasn't made a vote yet, you who I think has taken actions that it wouldn't make sense for scum to take (going after me when it would be easy to let LARD or darkpaladin get lynched), and darkpaladin and Solymr who I don't think have been posting enough, which annoys me. So I feel at a bit of a dead end.
[4]A leading question assumes a certain answer as part of the question. What I posted was just an admittedly useless and inflammatory comment.
[2] I've already begun getting some acceptable answers out of you. And no, a spontaneous confession will never happen, because it would serve no purpose at all. Is that what you think I've been trying to get out of you?
[bold] In no situation would I ever tell someone to edit a post. That's a blatant rule violation.
[3] Alright, this sparks some new questions out of me. Who do you think is acting the most "complacent"? By "obviously scummy", is there anything in particular you were looking for when reading people's posts? If you were to back to getting on LARD, where would you begin? You specifically mention that TDS hasn't voted yet, what does this tell you?
[4] If it was useless, then what were you hoping would be achieved by including it?
Graknorke: You are currently arguing with mastahcheese.The issue was not me continually sidestepping the question, but the fact that I avoided answering it in the first place.
You seem to be sidestepping a question ("What's your read on Persus13" or something like that). What makes you think that no one will care about this? Obviously, at least mastahcheese cares. If you keep refusing to answer, more people will start caring about your answer.
You say you will be convincing, and yet you also say that you can't be convincing. If you're town, play like town. Go scumhunt and get information for all of us. Also, your most recent post was somewhat lacking in anything substantial; you respond to mastahcheese's questions with things like "You looked at the wrong thing" or "It doesn't matter". Why is this?
If I were scum, I would play to win. However I would not do that by giving bad advice. Everything I say in italics you can trust. What I say outside of italics is up for you to decide.While this doesn't directly count as evidence it is just confirming the point I made previously,I know, I read the OP. But I think you are using that to win. If I was IC I could win the game easier by letting the players think I'm pointing in the right direction but really I'm not. And that wouldn't be not doing your job because we would learn from that. I think I have already.
Sorry, I clicked post instead of preview, What I meant to say before posting was that based on that and a possible hunch, I'm sticking with my vote....So? You don't exactly state what gave you that idea. You pull out of an assumption and believe it is justified for your vote to stick?
Can I get everyone's reads?
Tiruin: Says very little. Null readVery little is quite an understatement. Please back it up?
PPE: oh fine, I'll try to scumhunt.In any game, while this is your intent-don't do it this way! xD The wording screams epic error. Or lazy.
However, I'm overloaded with work and constantly tired and other life stuff, so don't expect me to ramp up my play until the weekends, probably.But this! This deserves....*hugs* Hope you're ok. :/
Sorry, I clicked post instead of preview, What I meant to say before posting was that based on that and a possible hunch, I'm sticking with my vote.And what is this hunch?
I know, I read the OP. But I think you are using that to win. If I was IC I could win the game easier by letting the players think I'm pointing in the right direction but really I'm not. And that wouldn't be not doing your job because we would learn from that. I think I have already.[
Tiruin - Despite voting for me I'm gonna say he's a stand up guy, neutral lean, I think aggressiveness means he thinks I'm scum, It's not hard to tell.*She. :P
Graknorke - No reason at all to believe scumDespite their dueling you see no difference in either?
Mastahcheese - Fairly neutral, if anything I agree with Graknorke and he is leaning townie
Persus - I don't think he is giving false tips or helping us falsely, but I do think he seems to give off a scum vibe, with his position as IC I don't think anyone would look to him.Isn't this against what you said earlier? That, and implied, he would teach by being dastardly scum?
quote author=4maskwolf link=topic=136649.msg5059763#msg5059763 date=1393982215]This would be the hunch in a nutshell, no one is looking to him on the basis of his IC status.Sorry, I clicked post instead of preview, What I meant to say before posting was that based on that and a possible hunch, I'm sticking with my vote.And what is this hunch?
Also, reads, please.
I know, I read the OP. But I think you are using that to win. If I was IC I could win the game easier by letting the players think I'm pointing in the right direction but really I'm not. And that wouldn't be not doing your job because we would learn from that. I think I have already.[
Sorry, I clearly was unable to tell your gender.Tiruin - Despite voting for me I'm gonna say he's a stand up guy, neutral lean, I think aggressiveness means he thinks I'm scum, It's not hard to tell.*She. :PGraknorke - No reason at all to believe scumDespite their dueling you see no difference in either?
Mastahcheese - Fairly neutral, if anything I agree with Graknorke and he is leaning townie
...I didn't check behind that much-though will do later due to busy-ness.Persus - I don't think he is giving false tips or helping us falsely, but I do think he seems to give off a scum vibe, with his position as IC I don't think anyone would look to him.Isn't this against what you said earlier? That, and implied, he would teach by being dastardly scum?
If a vibe-what set it off? Brevity?
His position as an IC has no difference from your position as a player--it is a term people like alluding to because we are known to be experienced, yet we still learn from you as you learn from us.
I fail to see the mystique of the IC.
Sorry, I clearly was unable to tell your gender.Tiruin - Despite voting for me I'm gonna say he's a stand up guy, neutral lean, I think aggressiveness means he thinks I'm scum, It's not hard to tell.*She. :PGraknorke - No reason at all to believe scumDespite their dueling you see no difference in either?
Mastahcheese - Fairly neutral, if anything I agree with Graknorke and he is leaning townie
...I didn't check behind that much-though will do later due to busy-ness.Persus - I don't think he is giving false tips or helping us falsely, but I do think he seems to give off a scum vibe, with his position as IC I don't think anyone would look to him.Isn't this against what you said earlier? That, and implied, he would teach by being dastardly scum?
If a vibe-what set it off? Brevity?
His position as an IC has no difference from your position as a player--it is a term people like alluding to because we are known to be experienced, yet we still learn from you as you learn from us.
I fail to see the mystique of the IC.
As for my reads,
Tiruin: Quite scummy. Voted me on first post with very little explanation. Perhaps that means she is dropping hints in order not to destroy us too bad, maybe she is busy and under strain, or maybe just a pressure vote. Pressure vote seems unlikely do to lack of reasons.
Graknorke: I don't have a very good read on him because he's more experienced, seems to be legitimately fishing very hard for information though. I'm sorry about you needing to pressure me. town lean, and I'm not just saying that to get you on my side.
TDS:
Solymr You are not fishing very hard for information, seem unacceptably ambiguous,LARD: pretty much everything he says points to scum., and above reasons.
Can I get everyone's reads?
[1]I notice now that I put a negative in there that shouldn't be, but you probably noticed that. Otherwise, what I said makes sense to me. Your original argument was along the lines of: "You said you had "slipped up" earlier, and this is a phrase used in Mafia to refer to showing scumtells. You claim that you said it in a more general definition referring to mistakes and that it could also apply to town, however I do not think that is the case. When you said 'without the added pressure of being scum', *that could have been a scum move to make you appear town*."[1] Are you intentionally missing the point of the argument? The point was that you claimed your response was based on town, when the question I asked, the one you responded too, was entirely about scum. So no, that's not regarding town at all. This is about the third time I've clarified this, and you continue to change the subject.
I then said that sort of reasoning (between the asterisks) encourages WIFOM and isn't helpful, and you agreed. So I don't see how you can still say you've proved that I wasn't referring to mistakes as a townie?
[2]No, it was hyperbole. But the level of insistence on me further explaining makes it seem like you want more than a simple explanation. But of course this is going to be influenced by the fact that I wrote what you're asking about in the first place and of course I know what I meant.
[3]Complacent - Torn between 4mask and TDS. Both ask questions, but oftentimes they hold back on more incriminating questions to instead go for someone else. For example, in TDS' most recent post, he's written much worse about me than about LARD, yet is FoSing LARD. It's as if rather than pursuing what looks scummiest, he already thinks he's found the scum, despite an earlier post saying that LARD doesn't look scummy (where he did an unvote, so I suppose he must have voted once). If I were to make an accusation on this, it'd be that he was picking easy targets, but I haven't actually asked about that.
Then 4mask is being mostly reactionary. He recently complained that nobody was asking him questions, despite there being plenty of places in the conversations where he could interject and share what he thinks. He also has a vote down so it seems like he also is unwaveringly sure that he's found scum.
To get back on LARD I'd probably start with inquiring about his current vote. Were he scum, he would know that he was voting for a townie so I suspect that the reasoning would not be as watertight as actual suspicion.
[4]I was sort of thinking abut that 'trap' LARD made early on in the game, with 4mask fell for. But the context I tried to use it in was way out, as was the way in which I did it. Doing something like that didn't even make sense in the context.
[bold]I didn't mean editing the post, but checking over what I've written before I post it. Trimming anything superfluous, keeping the tone at a reasonable level, that sort of thing. I'm just not entirely sure whether that's a good or a bad thing.
Alright I guess here are my readsOk, look at that bolded bit.
EpicHighFive321 - Me
Graknorke - No reason at all to believe scum
Mastahcheese - Fairly neutral, if anything I agree with Graknorke and he is leaning townie
4maskwolf - Seems to be inquiring for quite a bit of information, I guess I would lean neutral or town
LARD - Mostly neutral but I'm not quite sure
Darkpaladin - Not posting enough to read
The Dark Star - Mostly neutral read, nothing much that I could tell
Tiruin - Despite voting for me I'm gonna say he's a stand up guy, neutral lean, I think aggressiveness means he thinks I'm scum, It's not hard to tell.
Persus - I don't think he is giving false tips or helping us falsely, but I do think he seems to give off a scum vibe, with his position as IC I don't think anyone would look to him.
Alright, I am kinda new towards this game, but I think my logic was a bit faulty when selecting LARD, so UNVOTE LARD. I really only selected him because I didn't know how much time was left in the day and saw another player's argument in why he was voted. After some thinking, I have decided to go with Persus13. Like what LARD said before, you seem to put yourself in a mentor position above us. I think this is a good enough reason.
LARD: pretty much everything he says points to scum.
After reading the preceding posts, I'm gonna go ahead and go with LARD.
Persus - I don't think he is giving false tips or helping us falsely, but I do think he seems to give off a scum vibe, with his position as IC I don't think anyone would look to him.
Whoa whoa whoa, let's not have another dogpile on the highfive. I will keep my vote on him because I thought his predecessor was scum. He's acting really scummy, by voting me, the instigator of his vote. By doing that he is just playing like the people I normally play with. (almost completely irrational) He's just a bit unfamiliar with the way we do things. Poor guy. But a dogpile is a very telling thing. The one on me provided me with a lot of information and the one on the highfive will probably be just as telling. I just think these large opinion swings are hilarious and should be encouraged, as long as people stay rational.Hello LARD.
By the way, any of you who worry that I'm taking things personally by the personal way in which I respond to things, for example, "how politely condescending of you" It's just my way of adding colour to a game and bringing friendly banter into things. Why is everybody so serious?
Graknorkeand MastacheeseI did respond to you and gave you my reads on you. You seem to be legitimately scum hunting and I kind of trust that. The only thing that worries me is that when my brother and I are both spies/mafia in our games, we argue with each other vehemently. I don't know how that plays in
All my other reads from here still stand
As for my reads,
Tiruin: Quite scummy. Voted me on first post with very little explanation. Perhaps that means she is dropping hints in order not to destroy us too bad, maybe she is busy and under strain, or maybe just a pressure vote. Pressure vote seems unlikely do to lack of reasons.
Graknorke: I don't have a very good read on him because he's more experienced, seems to be legitimately fishing very hard for information though. I'm sorry about you needing to pressure me. town lean, and I'm not just saying that to get you on my side.
TDS:
Solymr You are not fishing very hard for information, seem unacceptably ambiguous,LARD: pretty much everything he says points to scum., and above reasons.
TDS Just to clarify. You point the FoS at me without voting on me. I find that you did not jump on my dogpile scummy because I seemed to be the only one you had suspicions of since your pressure vote on persus. It seemed as if you didn't want to be seen to be guilty of dogpiling. You're not that scummy to me right now, I think in my head I was getting you mixed up with solymr. Sorry. You should use your vote though. For kicks, you could join our party on the replacement. :)
Tiruin Ah yes. I want to get the little weird confusion about my gamestarter question out of the way. The point was that the information gleaned from the question could only be used by the mafia ever. Very rarely could the mafia use it, as you maintain but the village could never use it. Please don't bring it up again as I have explained all that I think I can. It was a gamestarter and never was very valuable except that it led to a telling mass suspicion on me. As for you going easy on us, that was just a hypothesis and a pressure question. I don't understand why you were voting me though, could you explain.
4maskwolfIt wasn't a clever trap, but I appreciate the sentiment.
I will not join everybody in pursuing epichighfive (I didn't know if that was necessary because of sub) in terms of questions. It seems like he has enough to answer for from everybody else. I think he is scum because his predecessor was suspicious. He is also incredibly suspicious and probably won't last long, but as I said, everybody else is battering him, so I won't, except for the fact that he went straight from voting me to neutral.
Sorry for lack of quotes, but when I read I find them very mind numbing. I hope everything is clear.
On another note, I move to establish an idle banter thread on this subform. All in favor?Yeah, it's probably a good idea to have a place to put all mafia-related comments that are unrelated to the current game.
I'll support this as well. It gets crazy at times.On another note, I move to establish an idle banter thread on this subform. All in favor?Yeah, it's probably a good idea to have a place to put all mafia-related comments that are unrelated to the current game.
I will not join everybody in pursuing epichighfive (I didn't know if that was necessary because of sub) in terms of questions. It seems like he has enough to answer for from everybody else. I think he is scum because his predecessor was suspicious. He is also incredibly suspicious and probably won't last long, but as I said, everybody else is battering him, so I won't, except for the fact that he went straight from voting me to neutral.You're talking about Solymr, (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=136649.msg5053232#msg5053232) yes?
Sorry for lack of quotes, but when I read I find them very mind numbing. I hope everything is clear.
He is also incredibly suspicious and probably won't last long, but as I said, everybody else is battering him, so I won't, except for the fact that he went straight from voting me to neutral.Do note, Mafia is serious business, and I-amongst the many players here-am blind to jokes online. Puns are clear and make me laugh, but sarcasm and jokes, especially by newbies?
Tiruin Ah yes. I want to get the little weird confusion about my gamestarter question out of the way. The point was that the information gleaned from the question could only be used by the mafia ever. Very rarely could the mafia use it, as you maintain but the village could never use it. Please don't bring it up again as I have explained all that I think I can....That this (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=136649.msg5043512#msg5043512) question benefits the Mafia moreso than town because town can't use these kinds of answers to their benefit?
On your scum reads: I see a sense of personalism there. Is there anything wrong in FoS'ing you?Attacking me does not in itself warrant suspicion. It is the dogpiling on an easy target that happens to be suspicious, and a half-hearted reluctant FoS on the easy target was more so. There is no personalism here, just my play style and writing style.
Know that the vote is more sticking than not--due to that personalism I see. For what reason is there for you to suspect those even poking at you? Are you on the impression that, if your role is a townie, those attacking you would suffice suspicion?
LARD: pretty much everything he says points to scum.He refused to say why and didn't go through on his "suspicions" on me by voting, as if he didn't want to seem guilty of joining a dogpile. I believe that if you had read my previous posts, you would know my reasoning. I know they are really long. Sorry. But now that he has a really suspicious and new replacement who immediately voted me, the only one who was voting him, I am even more convinced of his guilt.
The ICs I'll wait until Day2 to get a good read.
...That this (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=136649.msg5043512#msg5043512) question benefits the Mafia moreso than town because town can't use these kinds of answers to their benefit?
Like..oh, say, getting the gist of how they would react?
If not--why didn't you poke Mr. Cheese about it?
tiruin is still my second guess at scum btw, for the following reasons.Very interesting.
1. pursuing and voting me over seemingly (to me) trivial stuff.
2. voting and unvoting highfive very fast when she kept a pressure vote on me for most of early game.
3. Doesn't seem to be paying very much attention to the game
4. Voting and unvoting highfive when he is probably the most obviously suspicious. If she had kept her vote on me that would be one thing. But all this indecisiveness is not a good sign.
It's fine with me if you all want to play seriously, and I'll try to play by everybody else's standards.
I measure about two inches on my screen between you telling me not to use sarcasm and your use of it. But that's okay I guess because you're not a newbie. In all seriousness though, I don't take any of this personally or offensively and I hope you don't either.I meant that in regard to your vote. The wording on how you did it says NO, yet your vote says YES.
But the clearest evidence was when he pointed the FoS at me.THIS dictates personalism moreso than anything else. Just because he FoS'd you (and an FoS at that), while it can be implied of his intent, does not necessarily speak of any malevolent intent towards you--you state the root cause being that, being the 'clearest evidence' as if its damning in itself to do such contrary to anything else.
He is also incredibly suspicious and probably won't last long, but as I said, everybody else is battering him, so I won't, except for the fact that he went straight from voting me to neutralNow add this query to you-why are you being indecisive?
Solymr was unacceptably ambiguous is accusing me. But the clearest evidence was when he pointed the FoS at me.Comparing your and his stances at the time-I can dearly say that if one of you is scum, then both are of different alignments given the interactions. Valid.
muhwahwahwaHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Persus and Tiruin:
You promise that if you're scum you won't misdirect us? Or not destroy us too bad?
I almost missed Tirun's everyone question, there is something I can talk about in Mafia other than Mafia?
I will, but I think I'm gonna call it a night for now, gonna get up in the morning and post again.I look forward to seeing your face again.
LARDAddendum #4 - Why is he the most obviously suspicious, and why did you add the 'probably' there?tiruin is still my second guess at scum btw, for the following reasons.Very interesting.
1. pursuing and voting me over seemingly (to me) trivial stuff.
2. voting and unvoting highfive very fast when she kept a pressure vote on me for most of early game.
3. Doesn't seem to be paying very much attention to the game
4. Voting and unvoting highfive when he is probably the most obviously suspicious. If she had kept her vote on me that would be one thing. But all this indecisiveness is not a good sign.
Dictate how trivial those stuffs are then, please? I'd loooove to see how your diverging viewpoint makes this so superficial.
The unvotes? Oh dear! Did you not notice what I found there in where I shifted? Or was it too 'trivial' also? Back #2 up.
Same with #3 because that's just mudslinging.
#4 - Most obviously suspicious? You're quick to conclude without asking 'Tiruin, why'd you unvote highfive?' Quicker to conclude indecisiveness--let me poke: Why is indecisiveness a bad thing? Next, defend on how 'indecisive' I am as opposed to pressuring you right now on behalf of your motive and intent.
If she had kept her vote on me that would be one thing.What about it?
Hey Darkpaladin109, I don't think we ever did get to hear your reads on other players? Would you share those with us please.Yeah, I don't really have any "reads" on anyone.
What do you really have?Hey Darkpaladin109, I don't think we ever did get to hear your reads on other players? Would you share those with us please.Yeah, I don't really have any "reads" on anyone.
I ask about the ideas in Mafia. The subject being the notions thrown about which intrigue you. The notions mean the ideas which people generally regard as acceptable or something to base on.Everyone: What is your favorite subject in Mafia? Favorite notion to talk about?I don't get what you're trying to ask me here? Care to clarify?
What do you not understand about Forum Mafia? What about your least favorite notion?
I don't really have anything, since I'm not really good at reading people, mostly since I'm afraid that I'l accidentally lynch a cop or townie, or something to that effect. That's pretty much the reason why I'm hestitant to post as much as the others.What do you really have?Hey Darkpaladin109, I don't think we ever did get to hear your reads on other players? Would you share those with us please.Yeah, I don't really have any "reads" on anyone.I ask about the ideas in Mafia. The subject being the notions thrown about which intrigue you. The notions mean the ideas which people generally regard as acceptable or something to base on.Everyone: What is your favorite subject in Mafia? Favorite notion to talk about?I don't get what you're trying to ask me here? Care to clarify?
What do you not understand about Forum Mafia? What about your least favorite notion?
Still, the second-last question are easy to answer. :)
Why do you fear accidentally lynching a cop or townie?I don't really have anything, since I'm not really good at reading people, mostly since I'm afraid that I'l accidentally lynch a cop or townie, or something to that effect. That's pretty much the reason why I'm hestitant to post as much as the others.What do you really have?Hey Darkpaladin109, I don't think we ever did get to hear your reads on other players? Would you share those with us please.Yeah, I don't really have any "reads" on anyone.I ask about the ideas in Mafia. The subject being the notions thrown about which intrigue you. The notions mean the ideas which people generally regard as acceptable or something to base on.Everyone: What is your favorite subject in Mafia? Favorite notion to talk about?I don't get what you're trying to ask me here? Care to clarify?
What do you not understand about Forum Mafia? What about your least favorite notion?
Still, the second-last question are easy to answer. :)
I don't have answers for most of those questions. I think I understand most of the rules, if that's what you're asking.
Why do you fear accidentally lynching a cop or townie?Because I fear that the others will suspect me of being a Scum and lynch me in return. I propably just have to get used to Mafia.
You don't have answers for what you don't understand, then?
Why do you fear accidentally lynching a cop or townie?Because I fear that the others will suspect me of being a Scum and lynch me in return. I propably just have to get used to Mafia.
You don't have answers for what you don't understand, then?
And yes, I don't have answers for what I don't understand.
This is pretty much how i feel too but i already screwed up and played the game like a guessing game. i'm not gonna give up though.Why do you fear accidentally lynching a cop or townie?Because I fear that the others will suspect me of being a Scum and lynch me in return. I propably just have to get used to Mafia.
You don't have answers for what you don't understand, then?
And yes, I don't have answers for what I don't understand.
[1] Are you intentionally missing the point of the argument? The point was that you claimed your response was based on town, when the question I asked, the one you responded too, was entirely about scum. So no, that's not regarding town at all. This is about the third time I've clarified this, and you continue to change the subject.No, I'm not intentionally missing anything. The statement about having already "slipped up" (the part you've been asking about) was in reference to me playing as town and showing my gross lack of knowledge of night action mechanics and spelling conventions, because that's what I was doing. Otherwise, it would be an outright confession of being scum, and that makes no sense to do.
This was a bit of a trap for you,4maskwolf because I gave you a way to escape my question, namely the gamestarter excuse. The fact that you used it shows that you neither thought very long about your response, nor had an original answer of your own. That is making me even more suspicious of you. So it was a trap, Not a very mafia-specific trap, but a trap nonetheless.These two statements contradict each other very nicely. On the one hand you're lashing out at 4mask for not having an answer prepared, and in the next breath you're defending your own vague answers by saying that it's bad to have prepared your answers.
It isn't all that scummy, because it just shows that the answerer doesn't think the question merit's much thought. If they clarify themselves later on, that is scummy because they are giving a rehearsed answer and not the impulsive one the question was aiming for.
So, LARD, care to explain this dissonance? Not able to keep track of the different threads of the conversation while trying to also keep them in your favour, perhaps?
I was considering voting for Graknorke, as he is jumping on me for accusing 4mask,If I am scum and somebody is attacking me, I probably will attack them. It looks suspicious and I generally look suspicious when I play these games.Okay, I'm starting to appreciate those gamestarter questions from earlier on.
So LARD, you're explicitly avoiding an action you have said would make you look suspicious? That's pretty scummy in itself.
And your reason was way off anyway. I didn't jump on you for accusing 4mask, it was for holding two differing viewpoints. And then you clarified your answer, but you still seem to be making a suspiciously specific conclusion as to why I was pressuring you, even though I stated otherwise. It's almost like you think I think you have something against 4mask. Care to explain why?
Also, a lurker tracker update for those of you who care:And I know that you've read this thread recording that the player with the highest post count is, statistically, very unlikely to be scum (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=132415.msg4712136#msg4712136).
4maskwolf: 23
darkpaladin109: 5
Graknorke: 32
LARD: 8
Mastahcheese: 16
Persus13: 12
Solymr/epichighfive321: 4/10
TheDarkStar: 19
Tiruin: 17
And earlier I unvoted but that doesn't seem to have gone into the count. Just making sure.
Alright, let's try to clear up this mess.Sorry, I clearly was unable to tell your gender.Tiruin - Despite voting for me I'm gonna say he's a stand up guy, neutral lean, I think aggressiveness means he thinks I'm scum, It's not hard to tell.*She. :PGraknorke - No reason at all to believe scumDespite their dueling you see no difference in either?
Mastahcheese - Fairly neutral, if anything I agree with Graknorke and he is leaning townie
...I didn't check behind that much-though will do later due to busy-ness.Persus - I don't think he is giving false tips or helping us falsely, but I do think he seems to give off a scum vibe, with his position as IC I don't think anyone would look to him.Isn't this against what you said earlier? That, and implied, he would teach by being dastardly scum?
If a vibe-what set it off? Brevity?
His position as an IC has no difference from your position as a player--it is a term people like alluding to because we are known to be experienced, yet we still learn from you as you learn from us.
I fail to see the mystique of the IC.
Are you going to respond to the other 6 questions and comments?
However,QuoteBut the clearest evidence was when he pointed the FoS at me.THIS dictates personalism moreso than anything else. Just because he FoS'd you (and an FoS at that), while it can be implied of his intent, does not necessarily speak of any malevolent intent towards you--you state the root cause being that, being the 'clearest evidence' as if its damning in itself to do such contrary to anything else.
Sorry Solymr, I couldn't find the question to which you were referring. That link led me to my post. But what I do find odd is a reference to a bandwagon without you being suspicious of the other bandwagoners, only of the guy who accused others of bandwagoning. You are defensive and supportive of a dogpile, without joining it yourself, why?There is only one reason I can see that you, a seasoned mafia player, would respond in such a manner. And that is that you are mafia.
In addition, tell me what you think of Tiruin
Solymr You are not fishing very hard for information, seem unacceptably ambiguous,LARD: pretty much everything he says points to scum., and above reasons.On your scum reads: I see a sense of personalism there. Is there anything wrong in FoS'ing you?Attacking me does not in itself warrant suspicion. It is the dogpiling on an easy target that happens to be suspicious, and a half-hearted reluctant FoS on the easy target was more so. There is no personalism here, just my play style and writing style.
Know that the vote is more sticking than not--due to that personalism I see. For what reason is there for you to suspect those even poking at you? Are you on the impression that, if your role is a townie, those attacking you would suffice suspicion?
Well firstly I think I did a pretty good job tripping LARD up with something here. It was genuinely scummy and I followed the trail for as long as I could until LARD stopped responding, at which point there wasn't much I could do.
When I said I would attack them, I meant that if I was mafia I would night-kill them because due to the heavy suspicion on me, I could pass it off as the mafia trying to put suspicion where it was easiest.I was considering voting for Graknorke, as he is jumping on me for accusing 4mask,If I am scum and somebody is attacking me, I probably will attack them. It looks suspicious and I generally look suspicious when I play these games.Okay, I'm starting to appreciate those gamestarter questions from earlier on.
So LARD, you're explicitly avoiding an action you have said would make you look suspicious? That's pretty scummy in itself.
And your reason was way off anyway. I didn't jump on you for accusing 4mask, it was for holding two differing viewpoints. And then you clarified your answer, but you still seem to be making a suspiciously specific conclusion as to why I was pressuring you, even though I stated otherwise. It's almost like you think I think you have something against 4mask. Care to explain why?
No, I just wanted to know why you jumped at me so early, and I thought that my accusation of 4mask was the likely reason. It was my habitual defensiveness again
Hello LARD.4maskwolf I would not move to start an idle banter thread. It could only lead to information being missed. Is it acceptable to do a lot of banter and stuff in post game?
Time for me to go into lecture mode.
Alright, first of all, jokes are rarely noticed as such. Emoticons or [joke][/joke] makes it very clear that what you say is a joke. I have learned this recently, when something I thought was an obvious joke was misinterpereted as a scumtell. But with that aside, do note that most people play mafia VERY seriously, to the point that I've seen some comments in the older games from '09 with comments that verge on personal attacks. Just remember that.
On another note, I move to establish an idle banter thread on this subform. All in favor?
I understand where you are coming from, DP. But the thing is, you just gotta go out there and do it. You learn by playing, and if you get lynched once, you laugh it off and join the next game. That's my philosophy.Why do you fear accidentally lynching a cop or townie?Because I fear that the others will suspect me of being a Scum and lynch me in return. I propably just have to get used to Mafia.
You don't have answers for what you don't understand, then?
And yes, I don't have answers for what I don't understand.
Everyone who has been reading my exchanges with Tiruin, Am I not explaining things properly? because from my point of view it seems like she is deliberately misunderstanding me. Don't worry if you skimmed them, and don't bother reading them if you don't feel like it.Alright, always glad to help.
Now I will start pressuring my vote because it seems like the original hullabaloo has died down.
Tiruin I think you are ready. Yes, here it is. The number one reason I suspect you, is because if I had picked the right two, and you and epichighfive were the mafia, you would be doing your best to sully my name. I do not see your points in accusing me and I fail to see how you can misunderstand and misquote me so badly. I will give you an example.However,QuoteBut the clearest evidence was when he pointed the FoS at me.THIS dictates personalism moreso than anything else. Just because he FoS'd you (and an FoS at that), while it can be implied of his intent, does not necessarily speak of any malevolent intent towards you--you state the root cause being that, being the 'clearest evidence' as if its damning in itself to do such contrary to anything else.
This takes one of my posts and makes it clear to me that you misread of my background saying it was not personal (quoted below) and that my reasons were not of revenge but of behavioral analysis.Sorry Solymr, I couldn't find the question to which you were referring. That link led me to my post. But what I do find odd is a reference to a bandwagon without you being suspicious of the other bandwagoners, only of the guy who accused others of bandwagoning. You are defensive and supportive of a dogpile, without joining it yourself, why?There is only one reason I can see that you, a seasoned mafia player, would respond in such a manner. And that is that you are mafia.
In addition, tell me what you think of Tiruin
Solymr You are not fishing very hard for information, seem unacceptably ambiguous,LARD: pretty much everything he says points to scum., and above reasons.On your scum reads: I see a sense of personalism there. Is there anything wrong in FoS'ing you?Attacking me does not in itself warrant suspicion. It is the dogpiling on an easy target that happens to be suspicious, and a half-hearted reluctant FoS on the easy target was more so. There is no personalism here, just my play style and writing style.
Know that the vote is more sticking than not--due to that personalism I see. For what reason is there for you to suspect those even poking at you? Are you on the impression that, if your role is a townie, those attacking you would suffice suspicion?
As for my previous four reasons, they are wrapped up in the above. My intent right now and for my last few posts, has been to make my intent clear to you. But if you are using the strategy outlined above, I don't see the point. As for my motive, I have called out my scum pair, and what I have seen so far supports my hypothesis.(In my mind) My motive right now is to try to get a scum lynch on day 1. I think it is Epichighfive, but I would support a popular vote on you as well. I welcome your attempts to convince me otherwise, but try not to confuse me.
Eagerly awaiting your reply.Well firstly I think I did a pretty good job tripping LARD up with something here. It was genuinely scummy and I followed the trail for as long as I could until LARD stopped responding, at which point there wasn't much I could do.
Graknorke I have made my position clear to you in these posts, right? If you have questions, I'll try to answer them.QuoteWhen I said I would attack them, I meant that if I was mafia I would night-kill them because due to the heavy suspicion on me, I could pass it off as the mafia trying to put suspicion where it was easiest.I was considering voting for Graknorke, as he is jumping on me for accusing 4mask,If I am scum and somebody is attacking me, I probably will attack them. It looks suspicious and I generally look suspicious when I play these games.Okay, I'm starting to appreciate those gamestarter questions from earlier on.
So LARD, you're explicitly avoiding an action you have said would make you look suspicious? That's pretty scummy in itself.
And your reason was way off anyway. I didn't jump on you for accusing 4mask, it was for holding two differing viewpoints. And then you clarified your answer, but you still seem to be making a suspiciously specific conclusion as to why I was pressuring you, even though I stated otherwise. It's almost like you think I think you have something against 4mask. Care to explain why?
No, I just wanted to know why you jumped at me so early, and I thought that my accusation of 4mask was the likely reason. It was my habitual defensiveness againHello LARD.4maskwolf I would not move to start an idle banter thread. It could only lead to information being missed. Is it acceptable to do a lot of banter and stuff in post game?
Time for me to go into lecture mode.
Alright, first of all, jokes are rarely noticed as such. Emoticons or [joke][/joke] makes it very clear that what you say is a joke. I have learned this recently, when something I thought was an obvious joke was misinterpereted as a scumtell. But with that aside, do note that most people play mafia VERY seriously, to the point that I've seen some comments in the older games from '09 with comments that verge on personal attacks. Just remember that.
On another note, I move to establish an idle banter thread on this subform. All in favor?
Now, Epic high five. I want to know a few things.
1. Why did you think I was suspicious?
2. Why did you claim to have read the previous pages and not know that Tiruin was a "she"?
3. What do you think of Tiruin?
4. What is your favourite ploy by the mafia?
I have said some harsh things about you in preceding posts, and I want you to know that you are appreciated here. (more so because you took the spotlight of suspicion off me) :P
I'd like some elaboration on my questions, please, particularly #1 and #3. And good on you btw, you've come down to earth after your first posts. Something I just figured out, as this is my first game here as well, is that people like elaboration and detail, short or vague answers are often seen as scummy. Anyway, you're doing better than me at the beginning of the game, I managed to get 3 ppl jumping on my head. :Pyeah, about that:
I'd like some elaboration on my questions, please, particularly #1 and #3. And good on you btw, you've come down to earth after your first posts. Something I just figured out, as this is my first game here as well, is that people like elaboration and detail, short or vague answers are often seen as scummy. Anyway, you're doing better than me at the beginning of the game, I managed to get 3 ppl jumping on my head. :P
Everyone who has been reading my exchanges with Tiruin, Am I not explaining things properly? because from my point of view it seems like she is deliberately misunderstanding me. Don't worry if you skimmed them, and don't bother reading them if you don't feel like it.Counter-query: Have you ever asked me a question instead of a declarative sentence to alleviate these guesses or assumptions that you hold on me misunderstanding you? Next, it is in your own belief if you explain things properly--the best course to do so is to ask the person you speak to with a question that affirms or denies any fears that you have.
Now I will start pressuring my vote because it seems like the original hullabaloo has died down.
Tiruin I think you are ready. Yes, here it is. The number one reason I suspect you, is because if I had picked the right two, and you and epichighfive were the mafia, you would be doing your best to sully my name. I do not see your points in accusing me and I fail to see how you can misunderstand and misquote me so badly. I will give you an example.
The number one reason I suspect you, is because if I had picked the right two, and you and epichighfive were the mafia, you would be doing your best to sully my name. I do not see your points in accusing me and I fail to see how you can misunderstand and misquote me so badly. I will give you an example.This, I cannot understand.
This takes one of my posts and makes it clear to me that you misread of my background saying it was not personal (quoted below) and that my reasons were not of revenge but of behavioral analysis.You do good in addressing the general populace, however I do have a question to entertain: Where do you see our outlooks diverge?
"Only" hmm? I detect either a quick and narrow conclusion from you, or that you're playing this assertively all along.Sorry Solymr, I couldn't find the question to which you were referring. That link led me to my post. But what I do find odd is a reference to a bandwagon without you being suspicious of the other bandwagoners, only of the guy who accused others of bandwagoning. You are defensive and supportive of a dogpile, without joining it yourself, why?There is only one reason I can see that you, a seasoned mafia player, would respond in such a manner. And that is that you are mafia.
In addition, tell me what you think of Tiruin
Solymr You are not fishing very hard for information, seem unacceptably ambiguous,LARD: pretty much everything he says points to scum., and above reasons.On your scum reads: I see a sense of personalism there. Is there anything wrong in FoS'ing you?Attacking me does not in itself warrant suspicion. It is the dogpiling on an easy target that happens to be suspicious, and a half-hearted reluctant FoS on the easy target was more so. There is no personalism here, just my play style and writing style.
Know that the vote is more sticking than not--due to that personalism I see. For what reason is there for you to suspect those even poking at you? Are you on the impression that, if your role is a townie, those attacking you would suffice suspicion?
As for my previous four reasons, they are wrapped up in the above. My intent right now and for my last few posts, has been to make my intent clear to you. But if you are using the strategy outlined above, I don't see the point. As for my motive, I have called out my scum pair, and what I have seen so far supports my hypothesis.(In my mind) My motive right now is to try to get a scum lynch on day 1. I think it is Epichighfive, but I would support a popular vote on you as well. I welcome your attempts to convince me otherwise, but try not to confuse me.
Eagerly awaiting your reply.
tiruin is still my second guess at scum btw, for the following reasons.Because those don't seem to connect on why you did such in regard to the above stated. I voted highfive (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=136649.msg5059479#msg5059479), and when I received his reply-it jived with what I believed was a good reason through his wording-and checked back on the matter at hand. My shift of vote does not dictate that I am shifty in anyway, he is still under suspect as is you all--however I saw something scummier. I wanted to gauge you out on why you're acting as such.
1. pursuing and voting me over seemingly (to me) trivial stuff.
2. voting and unvoting highfive very fast when she kept a pressure vote on me for most of early game.
3. Doesn't seem to be paying very much attention to the game
4. Voting and unvoting highfive when he is probably the most obviously suspicious. If she had kept her vote on me that would be one thing. But all this indecisiveness is not a good sign.
I'd like some elaboration on my questions, please, particularly #1 and #3. And good on you btw, you've come down to earth after your first posts. Something I just figured out, as this is my first game here as well, is that people like elaboration and detail, short or vague answers are often seen as scummy. Anyway, you're doing better than me at the beginning of the game, I managed to get 3 ppl jumping on my head. :P
When you say 'scummy', you mean..what exactly? The terms by the book or do you have your own principles?I guess anything that would make me think that you might be mafia would be scummy. Is that wrong?
Graknorke I have made my position clear to you in these posts, right? If you have questions, I'll try to answer them.Yes, you already did. I was talking about things I'd already done, and I think you'd agree that what I called you on was valid until you explained it.
I have said some harsh things about you in preceding posts, and I want you to know that you are appreciated here. (more so because you took the spotlight of suspicion off me) :POh, and you were doing so well. The only reason a townie would feel glad the spotlight is off them is if it's going onto someone they think is scum. And even then the reason they're pleased about it is because scum is being pressured.
Epichighfive, completely ignoring me is not a good thing. It doesn't look any better than when LARD did it. It makes it seem as though you're deliberately trying to avoid either drawing attention to me or from me. Neither reflects well on you. Neither does just saying that you agree with my opinion either. Copying other people is a fairly prominent scumtell, and you can't get much more copying than saying you have the same thoughts as another person.
And LARD, you never did explain that. Why you excluded me from your 'reads' list. It wasn't a rhetorical question.
Darkpaladin, you are never going to get anywhere if you're scared of lynching the wrong person or of being lynched. This is my first game also, and the best analogy I can think of is getting into a swimming pool. You have to jump in and flail around a bit until you get your bearings. So go on, get some reads, refer to the scumtells list in the OP if you want, question someone on something. Just do something, because lurking around isn't helping anyone.
Everyone who has been reading my exchanges with Tiruin, Am I not explaining things properly? because from my point of view it seems like she is deliberately misunderstanding me. Don't worry if you skimmed them, and don't bother reading them if you don't feel like it.I personally have been rather unsure of which of the two of you I believe. You both are making your own cases reasonably well, from what I can tell.
Greetings proto-humans,
Today is the second day, and hopefully your energy has returned over the hours of diurnal "sleep", can't help John Connor if you don't know what they do, eh?
Given your get-up, your voice is your weapon--what does one do in a confrontation with no 'weapons'? Use your fists? That only gets people so far. Nay! In this situation, what does one do to learn about those around them?
They speak, and they listen.
Communication is the weapon of the people! Use it, or Skynet shall overpower you all.
...
At least I don't have that itch at my back anymore.
I find it interesting that Tiruin was the only person going after LARD. Also, see all my arguments from yesterday about him.Is there a question with that accusation, TDS?
EpicHighFive321 - Me
Graknorke - No reason at all to believe scum
Mastahcheese - Fairly neutral, if anything I agree with Graknorke and he is leaning townie
4maskwolf - Seems to be inquiring for quite a bit of information, I guess I would lean neutral or town
LARD - Mostly neutral but I'm not quite sure
Darkpaladin - Not posting enough to read
The Dark Star - Mostly neutral read, nothing much that I could tell
Tiruin - Despite voting for me I'm gonna say he's a stand up guy, neutral lean, I think aggressiveness means he thinks I'm scum, It's not hard to tell.
Persus - I don't think he is giving false tips or helping us falsely, but I do think he seems to give off a scum vibe, with his position as IC I don't think anyone would look to him.
4maskwolf: much activity and hunting. Most likely to be town.
Graknorke: also very active. Another good contender for town.
Mastahcheese: isn't asking too many questions but doesn't seem too suspicious.
TDS: quite active. Probable town.
DP: seems like he's trying to avoid answering certain questions and doesn't make himself clear. Slight scum.
LARD: pretty much everything he says points to scum.
The ICs I'll wait until Day2 to get a good read.
But if EHF turns out to be scum, if he's lynched, then you'll have some major explaining to do on his read on you, as I pointed out earlier. Because that looks far too much like scum buddying for me to ignore.Well, that turned out to be true. Do you have any particular questions?
Okay first things first that flavour text is beautiful, Jim.I was convinced you were scum, but then I read this. You make some good arguments. Eventually, I went through EHF's posts reminded me of his LARD lynch with no provocation.
Secondly; we struck scum day1. That's pretty uncommon so we should make the best use of it. So firstly we should probably go over Solymr and EHF's read lists to see what they have in common and where they differ:EpicHighFive321 - Me
Graknorke - No reason at all to believe scum
Mastahcheese - Fairly neutral, if anything I agree with Graknorke and he is leaning townie
4maskwolf - Seems to be inquiring for quite a bit of information, I guess I would lean neutral or town
LARD - Mostly neutral but I'm not quite sure
Darkpaladin - Not posting enough to read
The Dark Star - Mostly neutral read, nothing much that I could tell
Tiruin - Despite voting for me I'm gonna say he's a stand up guy, neutral lean, I think aggressiveness means he thinks I'm scum, It's not hard to tell.
Persus - I don't think he is giving false tips or helping us falsely, but I do think he seems to give off a scum vibe, with his position as IC I don't think anyone would look to him.4maskwolf: much activity and hunting. Most likely to be town.
Graknorke: also very active. Another good contender for town.
Mastahcheese: isn't asking too many questions but doesn't seem too suspicious.
TDS: quite active. Probable town.
DP: seems like he's trying to avoid answering certain questions and doesn't make himself clear. Slight scum.
LARD: pretty much everything he says points to scum.
The ICs I'll wait until Day2 to get a good read.
Well, they differ in a lot of places. The only place they're the same is a town read on me. EHF thought that mastahcheese was townie, while Solymr wasn't really sure. EHF thought that 4mask was hard to read, while Solymr was very convinced he was town. EHF thought that LARD was neutral, while Solymr thought he was scum. Neither has much on darkpaladin for obvious reasons. Neither had much to say on TDS either, but EHF read him as neutral while Solymr read him as town.
So not much of a connectiom there apart from the one (alive) person I know isn't scum.
And speaking of the implication of there being not-alive persons, Tiruin was also killed. Which seems odd to me. The only people she was a problem to were EHF and LARD. EHF died, so it can't be for that, and LARD wasn't really in such deep water with Tiruin. It would have been quite possible for him to answer the questions she was asking, so that would be a massive overreaction and suspicion draw (not that that's out of character for him). I'm not ruling out LARD, I just think that it was more likely someone else. I mean, he was rather pally with EHF, but definitely not with Solymr.
So LARD, how would you answer the questions Tiruin asked you? Actually, I insist that you do. You're the only person with a personal motive, and sub-optimal attention-drawing decisions aren't strange for you, if you remember the start of day1.
Darkpaladin109, what implications do you see in Solymr/epichighfive having been scum all along? Is there anything significant about it being Tiruin who was killed?
Persus13, do you want to give any opinions of EHF's vote on you? I'm sure you were following it more closely than I was.
TheDarkStar, I noticed that so far you've never been first onto a vote. It's always been after someone else made the first move. Any reason why you haven't instigated and carried through with anything? Always soon after too, like you're copying what other people say.
mastahcheeseBut if EHF turns out to be scum, if he's lynched, then you'll have some major explaining to do on his read on you, as I pointed out earlier. Because that looks far too much like scum buddying for me to ignore.Well, that turned out to be true. Do you have any particular questions?
As far as I see it, EHF was just kind of... dependent on other people. Those votes of his at the start were quite telling of that, copying what other people post. My reads list was only a few posts earlier, and we know he read mine because he even said he agreed with what I wrote. TDS also wrote a reads list slightly before EHF's, but the names on his were in a different order. But I missed the ICs off mine (copied the player list from the OP, forgot there were multiple lists), so he can't have completely copied the list.
I mean, looking at it from a perspective that doesn't know I'm town, there's 4 ways that could have gone.
First, it was deliberate and I'm scum, which means that it was an attempt to make me look better. Not a good plan, but this is BM,
Second, it was accidental and I'm scum, EHF just couldn't keep a lid on his overwhelming adoration for me. This one would be unlikely, because scum have private channels of communication and I know I wouldn't let something like this happen.
Third, it was deliberate and I'm town, basically trying to implicate me as being scum to get me lynched or more likely to draw attention. This one I don't think is the case so much as the fourth, because it isn't a very good plan.
Fourth, it was accidental and I'm town, just a beginner error. This one I think is probably more likely than third because of how EHF was acting, but maybe I don't give him enough credit.
PPE: Ooh boy 4 new posts. LARD dogpile v2 is apparently a go?
mastahcheeseActually, no. I don't, you managed to already answer them before I asked.But if EHF turns out to be scum, if he's lynched, then you'll have some major explaining to do on his read on you, as I pointed out earlier. Because that looks far too much like scum buddying for me to ignore.Well, that turned out to be true. Do you have any particular questions?
Graknorke - No reason at all to believe scumNow dead scum basically puts Graknorke out of suspicion by saying this, doesn't he? Because it's so vague, hmm? Well then, of course Graknorke is town, the scum said so, right?
I'd like to start by thanking TDS for actually acknowledging my existence.
I followed your link, TDS, and find your evidence to be tenuous at best. You want the real answer? The real answer is that I'm lazy.
That's right, lazy. That, and I was trying to prepare for several tests, get my game underway, prepare for said game, and win The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly.
So no, I didn't feel like taking this game seriously. Nor am I particularly inclined to now, in the mood I am in. However, you have managed to draw my ire with poorly worded falsehoods and half-truths, so I feel obligated to respond.
See, you accuse me of not leading any scumhunting or voting, and while I concede that that is true I have not seen you leading many votes. You are as indecisive as ever, only moving in to strike when you think you have a clear target. Previous votes are:
Random vote on Granorke
Random vote on Persus, followed by unvote
Bangwagon on LARD after others have been grilling him
Bandwagon on EpicHighFive
That is all from day one, and all that I need to see. You launch two random votes and join two bandwagons and you have the nerve to call me scum?
There are many people in this game who have been doing little. You picked me because you decided I was a threat to your power, TDS. The others, of course, are LARD, and DP. But of course, they are newer than I am, on their first and second games, and I'm sure you could come up with bullshit reasons to get them lynched, couldn't you. LARD for his day one behavior and DP for general lurking. So you focus your efforts on me.
Really, it's not that hard to see through your disguise. You should really work on it. You bus your scumbuddy day one to ingratiate yourself with the town and kill an IC night one to, hopefully, prevent yourself from being found out.
You put a lot of weight in the words of a scum, don't you? That's part of your basis for lynching me. Well, I'd like to point out something important in there:Quote from: The now dead scumGraknorke - No reason at all to believe scumNow dead scum basically puts Graknorke out of suspicion by saying this, doesn't he? Because it's so vague, hmm? Well then, of course Graknorke is town, the scum said so, right?
No. That's you rationalizing things. You never state it in your posts, but you never bring it up, either.
I would like to note also that Solymr has a tendency to put people as town he thinks are playing well, regardless of if they actually are. Graknorke is listed on his list as town as well, yet you don't go after him.
Oh right. That's because he's new and you're the scum. You're sure that he will slip up somewhere and give you an option to lynch him. And if not, there is always the nightkill.
Another fact about me, and something that Mastahcheese can vouch for: I refuse to lynch new players on their first day. I hinted as much in the scumchat of The Good, The Bad, and the Ugly, and it is the ONLY reason I didn't lynch Darkpaladin day one. Yes, I voted Solymr in that game, but it was a stupid attempt to save my scumbuddy and I backed off when I remembered he was new.
So, scumbiscuit, what do you have to say for yourself?
REQUESTING REPLACEMENTSorry for lacking presence D:
If you want to throw insults at someone, I'm sure the next player will be happy to take them. I, however, will restrict myself to running games, where people aren't going to insult me regularly. Enjoy your game.
PFP^This.REQUESTING REPLACEMENTSorry for lacking presence D:
If you want to throw insults at someone, I'm sure the next player will be happy to take them. I, however, will restrict myself to running games, where people aren't going to insult me regularly. Enjoy your game.
> Calm down...and take the situation as a note against what is presented--and not against your whole being.
*hugs* ;__;
Ok, this is getting really out of hand.PFP^This.REQUESTING REPLACEMENTSorry for lacking presence D:
If you want to throw insults at someone, I'm sure the next player will be happy to take them. I, however, will restrict myself to running games, where people aren't going to insult me regularly. Enjoy your game.
> Calm down...and take the situation as a note against what is presented--and not against your whole being.
*hugs* ;__;
Also, TDS, why are you trying to tell me what I should tell other people? You're serving no purpose with that except to put in the illusion that you're paying better attention than anyone else, which is rather insulting to everyone.
And no, your logic makes little to no sense, as clearly evidenced by 4mask. You act like you're saying "here is what I would do if I were scum, see how that's not me?"
Please go see the first BM I was in, this is exactly how makeinu acted, and when I called him out on it, he did the same thing you're doing now, by insulting the logical capacity of the questioner. Not to mention how you're frequently changing the subject when it would be trivial to mesh it together in a far more readable and manageable way.
So no, you're acting in an inexcusably scummy fashion.
1. Duly noted. I already explained why I was not active, now it is up to you to decide if that is acceptable to you.Ok, this is getting really out of hand.PFP^This.REQUESTING REPLACEMENTSorry for lacking presence D:
If you want to throw insults at someone, I'm sure the next player will be happy to take them. I, however, will restrict myself to running games, where people aren't going to insult me regularly. Enjoy your game.
> Calm down...and take the situation as a note against what is presented--and not against your whole being.
*hugs* ;__;
Also, TDS, why are you trying to tell me what I should tell other people? You're serving no purpose with that except to put in the illusion that you're paying better attention than anyone else, which is rather insulting to everyone.
And no, your logic makes little to no sense, as clearly evidenced by 4mask. You act like you're saying "here is what I would do if I were scum, see how that's not me?"
Please go see the first BM I was in, this is exactly how makeinu acted, and when I called him out on it, he did the same thing you're doing now, by insulting the logical capacity of the questioner. Not to mention how you're frequently changing the subject when it would be trivial to mesh it together in a far more readable and manageable way.
So no, you're acting in an inexcusably scummy fashion.
Well, I accidentally deleted my post.
mastacheese: The question about everyone was directed to everyone. I missed putting Everyone: in bold above it, though. Next, what about my other logic, especially the logic that questions 4maskwolf?
4maskwolf:
First off, sorry, 4maskwolf for the insults. Those were not necessary. I'll try to avoid that in the future.
To respond to your numbered complaints:
0. Sorry.
1. Tiruin was entirely gone for the first part of that game because she wasn't there to post. Also, you're comparing yourself to people from other games while I'm comparing you to people from this game.
2. I found that post, and it had one question about why Persus chose the four people he did to talk about and three statements. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=136649.msg5052110#msg5052110 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=136649.msg5052110#msg5052110))
3. LARD voting for him as Solymr indicates that LARD is not scum even more strongly. It's either the worst bus ever or LARD is not actually scum.
4. I still can't figure out what you are saying here. Your logic is that I have an argument against them (true in DP's case; not true in LARD's case) and so I decided to vote for you. Could you explain this a bit better?
5. If you didn't notice, I went after Persus with several questions. Also, just because you're inexperienced doesn't mean you're not scum; I was scum in the first two or three games I played.
6. There's other stuff, too, like mastahcheese's extensive scumhunting on him that revealed nothing, and the way he acted against EHF.
7. Yeah, but that doesn't make you seem town if you want to avoid looking suspicious.
8. I actually have a paragraph there indicating why I think you are scum; Solymr's and EHF's reads were mostly an afterthought. Also, I'd appreciate it if you would answer my questions rather than skip over them.
9. I'm pretty sure that's not what I've been advocating. If you're not scum, then DP probably is, because nothing else makes sense. That does not fit at all with your claim of my wanting to keep him alive to LyLo - we'll be at but not past Lylo two lynches from now, barring jailkeeper action.
I'm wondering why you're not refuting a bunch of my points; instead, a bunch of your points are mostly insults attacking me and calling me a liar. My vote is staying where it is for now.
Everyone: (labeled this time)
What do you think of my points against 4maskwolf?
I am posting because Jimbot McGooligan has denied my replacement request.
Please don't call him scumbiscuit. It is derogatory to biscuits by linking them with scum, and derogatory to TDS to link both to him.Actually, I used the phrase "scumbiscuit" because I couldn't remember the standardized scum insult (scumbucket). It isn't even really an insult so much as a more forceful way of calling someone scum. At least, that's the way I was using it.
I think that if we are on the internet, we have to play by the internet's assumptions, which are that we cannot see the other person and therefore we have a harder time understanding them. By this, I mean that you cannot hate someone who you understand completely, and if it isn't their fault that you don't understand them, but the internet's, we shouldn't be getting into these sort of insult matches. Besides, this is a "relatively" friendly forum.
Everyone: (labeled this time)I think that 4mask's points are better than yours. Since I thought you were pretty scummy anyway, and now the way you're behaving is more suspect than 4mask.
What do you think of my points against 4maskwolf?
So I will throw down my gauntlet. The final mafia is either 4maskwolf or TDS because they immediately jumped on me, which would fit right in with the mafia's plan. (The plan was short-sighted and didn't realize that I would be somewhat in the clear) I would have said TDS, but he's responding to questions as if he's giving information, so 4maskwolf seems a bit more likely.
However, if what you say is true, and if your analysis is correct:This sounds like a bad idea. If we go through with that we could easily be down to lylo without anything getting done. It's a big assumption to base the success of the game on. Maybe if it comes down to that by the end of the day, but I really am not comfortable with a decision like that now.
Lynch one, then lynch the other if the first one is not scum.
Graknorke You wanted me to answer Tiruin's questions, right? I don't know if they are relevant, but I thought I answered them all, and she just misunderstood my answers. If there are a few specific ones you want answered, I'll try.
She asked these just before day end and you never answered.tiruin is still my second guess at scum btw, for the following reasons.Because those don't seem to connect on why you did such in regard to the above stated. I voted highfive (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=136649.msg5059479#msg5059479), and when I received his reply-it jived with what I believed was a good reason through his wording-and checked back on the matter at hand. My shift of vote does not dictate that I am shifty in anyway, he is still under suspect as is you all--however I saw something scummier. I wanted to gauge you out on why you're acting as such.
1. pursuing and voting me over seemingly (to me) trivial stuff.
2. voting and unvoting highfive very fast when she kept a pressure vote on me for most of early game.
3. Doesn't seem to be paying very much attention to the game
4. Voting and unvoting highfive when he is probably the most obviously suspicious. If she had kept her vote on me that would be one thing. But all this indecisiveness is not a good sign.
Have you answered my queries on those matters?
On me asking you regarding why you see such and such as something?
Because you haven't answered these questions (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=136649.msg5061866#msg5061866) from your most recent reply after that post, here. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=136649.msg5063105#msg5063105) While I laud your idea for calling on the general populace, I'd like you to first stand for yourself and not call on the crowd mentality.
You still did not answer:
> How are those things trivial.
= You keep pointing at them and quoting them, but I can't see any direct point as to why they are trivial.
> You did not outline or bother to answer #2.
> Nor #3. No backing at all.
> ...Or #4. While I could assume an answer from that post there, I don't see any directness in regard to it.
I eagerly await your reply.
The final scum should, therefore, be a new player, for the following reasons.
1. killed Tiruin, perhaps to try to put the blame on me. It would have been a far better idea to kill me and then try to blame it on Tiruin, as I was the scumhunter of Solymr/EHF
2. It would have been a better idea still to kill mastahcheese or Graknorke because then the next day Tiruin and I would have probably gotten one of each other lynched, as we're both town.
3. If one of Graknorke or Mastahcheese had been mafia, they would probably have attacked the other and blamed it on someone trying to put the blame on them. It would have been pretty easy.
So I will throw down my gauntlet. The final mafia is either 4maskwolf or TDS because they immediately jumped on me, which would fit right in with the mafia's plan. (The plan was short-sighted and didn't realize that I would be somewhat in the clear) I would have said TDS, but he's responding to questions as if he's giving information, so 4maskwolf seems a bit more likely.
I am posting because Jimbot McGooligan has denied my replacement request.
Darkpaladin109, what implications do you see in Solymr/epichighfive having been scum all along? Is there anything significant about it being Tiruin who was killed?No idea. Sorry.
I've decided to play, I guess. We don't have an easy replacement at the time. I'll stay...I am posting because Jimbot McGooligan has denied my replacement request.
I did no such thing. I tried to talk you out of it. As it is noted in the rules, if you request a replacement for reasons other than not having enough time to play, we may try to talk you out of it.
If you confirmed your desire to be replaced out, I would have granted it, as I am doing now.
This does not necessarily have to end up at LyLo if I am wrong; there's either a rolecop or a jailor here somewhere; having either one pushes back LyLo by at least another day.TDS: You failed to address any salient points in my argument, or those of other people. I know you are likely busy, but why bother throwing up a post so devoid of pertinent content.
What do you think of my points against 4maskwolf?I think they fail to take into account about 90% of the things he's done so far.
Also, LARD, your sig made me laugh.
See, here is my conundrum.LARD...
I am almost certain that one of 4maskwolf and TDS are mafia. But things just don't add up.
The mafia plan went as follows: Tiruin and LARD are fighting, so we kill the IC and blame it on the newb who is less able to defend himself. Then in the morning, declare it by voting him. As I have said before, it would have been a better idea to kill Graknorke or Mastacheese, so the mafia is probably more of a new player.
4maskwolf is a more experienced player, so why would he nk Tiruin and blame it on me, who is basically in the clear. (assuming that fact. We don't have to, but it might be a good idea) That would be a huge mistake for the mafia, although a normal townsperson could still make that mistake.
TDS seems a bit more likely to be mafia as he looks like he is panicking at this point, but he seems to be a thoughtful player and I can't see why he would try to pull a dumb mafia stunt like that.
I, as the most likely town, (I think) would like to request protection during tomorrow night. That should give the mafia a WIFOM to deal with at least. (I don't know if that was a good idea)
And thank you, 4maskwolf, for this. It's not original, but it made me laugh too.Also, LARD, your sig made me laugh.
I, as the most likely town, (I think) would like to request protection during tomorrow night. That should give the mafia a WIFOM to deal with at least. (I don't know if that was a good idea)1. What is it that makes you the most likely town? I actually find you a bit suspicious on just how much you're saying "look at what a bad kill that was, I would never do that".
4maskwolf I agree that the mafia logic is flawed, that's my point. Tiruin was probably the second worst person to NK because his death would cast suspicion on me, who is standing pretty well. Thanks for admitting that you're not that experienced, but it doesn't help your case because the NK was probably and evidently by a inexperienced scum. I had forgotten about the scum IC. That changes things. Hmm, I'll have to think about that.*Her.
4maskwolf I agree that the mafia logic is flawed, that's my point. Tiruin was probably the second worst person to NK because his death would cast suspicion on me, who is standing pretty well. Thanks for admitting that you're not that experienced, but it doesn't help your case because the NK was probably and evidently by a inexperienced scum. I had forgotten about the scum IC. That changes things. Hmm, I'll have to think about that.LARD: You assume that you are standing pretty well, sir, which is perhaps a tad presumptuous. Yes, you were the first one on the lynch of Solymr/EHF, but as soon as EHF switched in several other people joined in lynching him. You then tell us NOT to bandwagon him in the first paragraph of this post (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=136649.msg5060185#msg5060185) and later both ask him some completely useless questions (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=136649.msg5063105#msg5063105) (like "how could you have read the last few pages and not know Tiruin was a she) and say that he is appreciated because he took the heat off of you. While the last part is followed by an emoticon to signal a joke, this is the exact reason we need a miscellaneous thread: so that people can crack jokes like that. I may set one up later. It is entirely possible that you freaked when everyone started lynching EHF and maintained your vote to try and ingratiate yourself with the town.
I don't have any reason to believe that there is a jailkeeper, my post only will make the mafia think twice about who they attack and it should also confuse them.
Sorry about that Tiruin.Like you said, Grak wouldn't have killed Tiruin, he's smarter than that, and with the way he explained his case, I believe him, at least for now.
If I am not scum, I was saying that I would be the mafia's target because people have behavioral reasons to believe I'm not. A person who most people think is town is likely to get nightkilled (I think) because they are unlikely to get lynched. I don't know what kind of answers you are looking for, mastahcheese but if you ask questions I will answer them the best I can. I haven't ruled out the possibility of you being mafia, mastacheese.
What happened to the discussion between mastacheese and Graknorke?
Day 1 Continues...All right, I want to know two things here,
[1] LARD: Graknorke
[1] darkpaladin109: Persus13
[1] Graknorke: mastahcheese
[3] Epichighfive321: LARD, Tiruin, TheDarkStar
[1] Persus13: Epichighfive321
Here's my Solymr and Epichighfive case:Alright, I am kinda new towards this game, but I think my logic was a bit faulty when selecting LARD, so UNVOTE LARD. I really only selected him because I didn't know how much time was left in the day and saw another player's argument in why he was voted. After some thinking, I have decided to go with Persus13. Like what LARD said before, you seem to put yourself in a mentor position above us. I think this is a good enough reason.
So, you admit to voting for someone because someone else did. Also, it's interesting to note that Solymr did the exact same thing you did: Claim that LARD is scummy for no reason, and then backs off when pressured.
Like this:LARD: pretty much everything he says points to scum.After reading the preceding posts, I'm gonna go ahead and go with LARD.Persus - I don't think he is giving false tips or helping us falsely, but I do think he seems to give off a scum vibe, with his position as IC I don't think anyone would look to him.
What makes you think this? Please, give quotes of what Persus13 has said and explain how they make him seem scummy to you.
It would help if you would post a bit more frequently, too - you have about 5 posts, and Solymr has another 5.
PPE: Looks like I got ninja'd by lots of people about EHF. Actually, I'd be very surprised if both LARD and EHF were town.
2. TDS, This looks like you are bandwagoning and when you give your reasoning, it is no more than anybody else's who posted before you. This seems like you were bussing when it looked as if EHF was going to get lynched regardless, therefore putting yourself in a good light. I also want to know about your suspicions on me, in light of the fact that the others think I'm certainly not a confirmed townie.
tds: and what of the charges arrayed against you?
You... really haven't. First of all, you were caught in a bald-faced lie in saying you were the first one on the EHF lynch. Then people have been accusing you of scummy behavior.tds: and what of the charges arrayed against you?
I've answered the things you and other people have said. Tonight, either I'm wrong and I get checked or jailed tonight (and die tomorrow if I'm scum) or I'm right and we win.
You... really haven't. First of all, you were caught in a bald-faced lie in saying you were the first one on the EHF lynch. Then people have been accusing you of scummy behavior.tds: and what of the charges arrayed against you?
I've answered the things you and other people have said. Tonight, either I'm wrong and I get checked or jailed tonight (and die tomorrow if I'm scum) or I'm right and we win.
I... don't know what to make of your behavior right now, tbh. If I insulted or upset you in my verbal tirade, I apologize, I was not thinking straight at the time.
The FoS you had actually works against you in my opinion. A mafia would seek to distance himself from his mafia partner and if the partner started playing badly, or even slightly badly, a FoS would result in distancing yourself. Then you jumped on him when it looked like he would be lynched anyway. I think that looks extremely scummy. I am afraid TDS that you will have to answer to these, and other accusations, listed in my above posts and other people's.
In addition. It seemed like TDS was panicking during his argument with 4mask and now he seems to have almost given up.
TDS Do not lose hope! If you are town, give us info so we will have something to work with after you are gone. If you are mafia, do the same thing. This will make it look like you are town.
I like to not use questions when I push people because it makes it too easy for them to answer with ambiguity. Having to defend yourself from a statement is more difficult.
Laziness. By that point in the day, I was tired of the first day antics and wanted to move on to the far more interesting second day.Day 1 Continues...All right, I want to know two things here,
[1] LARD: Graknorke
[1] darkpaladin109: Persus13
[1] Graknorke: mastahcheese
[3] Epichighfive321: LARD, Tiruin, TheDarkStar
[1] Persus13: Epichighfive321
1. 4maskwolf, why did you not have a vote down at this point?
The FoS you had actually works against you in my opinion. A mafia would seek to distance himself from his mafia partner and if the partner started playing badly, or even slightly badly, a FoS would result in distancing yourself. Then you jumped on him when it looked like he would be lynched anyway. I think that looks extremely scummy. I am afraid TDS that you will have to answer to these, and other accusations, listed in my above posts and other people's.
In addition. It seemed like TDS was panicking during his argument with 4mask and now he seems to have almost given up.
TDS Do not lose hope! If you are town, give us info so we will have something to work with after you are gone. If you are mafia, do the same thing. This will make it look like you are town.
I like to not use questions when I push people because it makes it too easy for them to answer with ambiguity. Having to defend yourself from a statement is more difficult.
I've simply had RL going on and have had to limit the time I spend posting (like now).
I'll have info here later, when I have a chance.
Also, votecount, please?
I'd like some elaboration on my questions, please, particularly #1 and #3. And good on you btw, you've come down to earth after your first posts. Something I just figured out, as this is my first game here as well, is that people like elaboration and detail, short or vague answers are often seen as scummy. Anyway, you're doing better than me at the beginning of the game, I managed to get 3 ppl jumping on my head. :Pyeah, about that:
Darkpaladin109: If you're going to play, tell me who you think the scumbuddy of Solymr/Epichighfive is. Use your vote to hunt people and go back and read through the thread if you're not sure. If you want to play, please play.TDS seems somewhat suspicious to me, judging by the fact that he bandwagoned epichighfive. Not quite sure about anyone else.
I'm not sure about this, Darkpaladin. It seems like you're lurking, and kind of complacent. Is it because no one is suspecting you?
Sorry about not being posting much. Family visits take up a lot of time.
extend, I could do with another 48 hours.
And LARD, the reason that accepting being lynched for no reason is a scumtell is exactly because it's trying to convince people they're town. But an actual townie would want to prevent a town-lynch (themselves) if possible.
^This one worries me. It's like he's not trying to stop himself getting lynched. It makes me think we've picked the wrong guy.
And 4maskwolf. I was looking back through the forum and saw this.I'd like some elaboration on my questions, please, particularly #1 and #3. And good on you btw, you've come down to earth after your first posts. Something I just figured out, as this is my first game here as well, is that people like elaboration and detail, short or vague answers are often seen as scummy. Anyway, you're doing better than me at the beginning of the game, I managed to get 3 ppl jumping on my head. :Pyeah, about that:
Can I have a reiteration of people's problems with LARD. I didn't actually understand them when they posted them.
Also, LARD, your sig made me laugh.
Ok guys, I have a plan.
Since some of you are adverse to the whole "lynch one, then the other" plan, how about this?We lynch one, and our power role target the other?
We have to have either a jailer or a cop, maybe both. When we lynch one, then our power role inspect the other, and if it turns out that we were wrong, then our power role will say so?
I realized while typing this that if we are wrong, then the scum would probably just claim to be the power role. Hmm.
I would request one, but what is there to discuss? TDS hasn't answered us, and unless someone else does something scummy my vote is staying put.
Tiruin, could we get your IC advise in here? Just general advice.I'll be swooping in soon~ :X
Out of curisosity, how soon is soon?Tiruin, could we get your IC advise in here? Just general advice.I'll be swooping in soon~ :X
Sorry for the lateness, and the unedited post before!
Day 2 has been extended to Friday 12:00 PM MST.Before this time! :3
That sounds painful. Don't do that.Day 2 has been extended to Friday 12:00 PM MST.Before this time! :3
Yeah schoolwork kills me. I apologize profusely x-x
Must wooork. Then I'll give a blow-by-blow reaction on everyone's post. Then I'll banter with Jim in deadchat. Then I'll PM Imp because I miss her.
Then...
Oh right.
Soon is before day end, but rather before Thursday in the earliest of timezones. Just a general term so I don't flip on myself and break my spinal column or such.
You don't have to be sure. Just have an idea.Darkpaladin109: If you're going to play, tell me who you think the scumbuddy of Solymr/Epichighfive is. Use your vote to hunt people and go back and read through the thread if you're not sure. If you want to play, please play.TDS seems somewhat suspicious to me, judging by the fact that he bandwagoned epichighfive. Not quite sure about anyone else.
Also, MastahCheese: What is your opinion on the events? What do you think of the apathy the game seems to have fallen into?I don't really know.
Could someone explain the charges against me that will lead to a lynch on me tomorrow?Also, MastahCheese: What is your opinion on the events? What do you think of the apathy the game seems to have fallen into?I don't really know.
I mean, I don't like it, that much should be obvious. I honestly think that TDS is the last scum, but if we're wrong then, we'll lynch you, and if that also proves to be wrong, then we really won't have anymore room for error. That's what I'm worried about.
And yeah, the whole apathy thing is annoying. I want something. I want to start tunneling someone, to get information, but there's no real point in tunneling you or TDS further, and I've run out of things to attack from other people.
I mean, LARD is still acting suspicious to me, but not in a way that makes me think "That SCUM!", he's just... he acts odd.
Grak is doing a good job of going after him, though. I don't know.
I wish Tiruin and Persus would have the time to get in here and try to enlighten us.
I do not think I am free of suspicion, as I have said before.
blame it on me, who is basically in the clear. (assuming that fact. We don't have to, but it might be a good idea)
I, as the most likely townYou certainly seem to want people to think it though. The first of these invites people to agree with you, and the second is outright stating that you are the most likely out of all of us to be town.
Me: My actions would have been terrible for the mafia, therefore it should seem unlikely to others that I am mafia.There is a difference between "people shouldn't think I'm mafia" to "people don't think I'm mafia". Your strawman is full of holes because you're not even arguing with it right.
Others: Lard claimed to be in the clear! That is terrible and scummy.
Me: My actions would have been terrible for the mafia, therefore it should seem unlikely to others that I am mafia.
Others: Lard claimed to be in the clear! That is terrible and scummy.
ehem.Could someone explain the charges against me that will lead to a lynch on me tomorrow?Also, MastahCheese: What is your opinion on the events? What do you think of the apathy the game seems to have fallen into?I don't really know.
I mean, I don't like it, that much should be obvious. I honestly think that TDS is the last scum, but if we're wrong then, we'll lynch you, and if that also proves to be wrong, then we really won't have anymore room for error. That's what I'm worried about.
And yeah, the whole apathy thing is annoying. I want something. I want to start tunneling someone, to get information, but there's no real point in tunneling you or TDS further, and I've run out of things to attack from other people.
I mean, LARD is still acting suspicious to me, but not in a way that makes me think "That SCUM!", he's just... he acts odd.
Grak is doing a good job of going after him, though. I don't know.
I wish Tiruin and Persus would have the time to get in here and try to enlighten us.
4mask I am considering lynching you because you jumped on me right after Tiruin died. Now that action would fit right in with the mafia's plan: nk Tiruin and then try to get a dogpile on another townie because it was so easy last time.Or, you know, I had been reading through the previous day and was convinced that you are scum. Yes, I want to know what the charges are, because I have to play for the future: if TDS isn't mafia, I need to discover who is, and I can't do that without getting people to talk. One way of doing that is requesting the charges against me, which, as proven, triggered you to talk to me.
By the way. It sounds right now like you are trying to prepare for what happens after TDS is lynched, which wouldn't be necessary if you were town and were legitimately convinced that he is mafia, because he is going to get lynched today. That is also why I suspect you.
I don't like it, especially with what TDS has been giving us lately, while 4maskwolf has just been trying to not get himself lynched tomorrow.I'd like to ask a question about this and point out a slight logical fallacy. TDS has been proposing the same thing over and over, in every post since our argument, which is to lynch one and power role the crap out of the other. Also, town does have an interest in not being lynched, particularly because if a town player gets lynched tomorrow we enter Lylo the next day, assuming no power roles intervene. While I agree with the scheme TDS has proposed, I think that we need to be looking around for the scum on the off chance that TDS flips town. We need to think the long game, and if the day doesn't end then we need to have a plan and a way forward. Right now, as it stands, if TDS and I are both town the day enters Lylo with no good leads. Which is exactly why I scumhunted you, LARD: the town needs to have some backup plan. Scum aren't the only ones who need to think for the endgame: in a situation like this, where two players are the only suspects, there needs to be some leads to go off of in the worst case scenario.
This is my voice I use for talking outside of my gameplay. It's kind of like an IC voice except that I don't give advice. LARD and Graknorke, I would just like to congratulate you two for playing really well this game. I wish I could say the same for the last two beginners, but one of them got themselves lynched out of the blue and the other is... absent. Regardless, it's great to see you two playing so well: certainly better than I did my first day of playing :P.Thanks
LARDWell, maybe he's harping over how he's confirmed town because he keeps getting badgered about it. I've seen this type of thing before, where a person makes a comment about how they're town, and it gets flack for it, then gets flack for saying "But I AM town."
Your logic is faulty. You are accusing 4mask of jumping on you after a lynch. This is not suspicious. It is scumhunting.
You are accusing 4mask of thinking ahead. It would be idiotic to not think ahead.
You seem overconfident that TDS will get lynched, despite switching your vote.
You have been harping on and on about you being "confirmed" town, practically. Tell me, if it's so obvious that you're doing so well as to be in the "clear", why are you still alive? Why weren't you targeted? If you were doing as good as you claim, you'd be on the top of the hit list. Grak has also pointed this out, and repeating to point this out, while you defend yourself with the exact same argument of "your argument is invalid because all evidence is on my side". Guess what? Town doesn't work that hard to find proof that they're town unless they're commanded to do so. Which to me, only leaves the possibility that you are not town.
At first, I wasn't convinced that you were scum, I just thought something was off about you, but it's piled too high now.
I'm fairly sure that you're the other scum, LARD, and you did bus your buddy, just to harp on over and over about how bad of an idea it was, and give yourself credit.
There, tie broken.
Initiating startup sequence...
Scanning for hostiles...
Hostiles not found...
Engaging seek and destroy...
Well then, LARD. Killing off the "untrustworthy" IC's, are you?
...LARD. The vote switching confirms it. You don't care which one of us gets lynched, because you are the scum. You don't even ask TDS any questions, you just say "Well, I'm going to try to avoid a tie". Only a scum or a townie who thinks he's caught scum would care about that, and you aren't staying on target. You're making the vague accusation of "one of you is guilty because argument" and trying to get one of us lynched. You've covered your tracks well, but the kill on Tiruin is, as you said, a beginner mistake. One that a beginner would make. You're a beginner. A savvy one, but still a beginner, and this is where you slipped up.Avoiding a tie is always a good policy. And LARD isn't the only one who has said that you or TDS are scum. Graknorke hs also said something to that effect.
Had you kept your vote on me after seeing Mastah's vote change, you could have gotten me lynched and gone on your merry way, with TDS being summarily executed tomorrow while you sat behind your confirmed town status. Before that, even after Mastah's accusations, I didn't think that you were scum, but that last post changed my mind.
Hrmm.... I'll take your word for it, when it comes to breaking ties.......LARD. The vote switching confirms it. You don't care which one of us gets lynched, because you are the scum. You don't even ask TDS any questions, you just say "Well, I'm going to try to avoid a tie". Only a scum or a townie who thinks he's caught scum would care about that, and you aren't staying on target. You're making the vague accusation of "one of you is guilty because argument" and trying to get one of us lynched. You've covered your tracks well, but the kill on Tiruin is, as you said, a beginner mistake. One that a beginner would make. You're a beginner. A savvy one, but still a beginner, and this is where you slipped up.Avoiding a tie is always a good policy. And LARD isn't the only one who has said that you or TDS are scum. Graknorke hs also said something to that effect.
Had you kept your vote on me after seeing Mastah's vote change, you could have gotten me lynched and gone on your merry way, with TDS being summarily executed tomorrow while you sat behind your confirmed town status. Before that, even after Mastah's accusations, I didn't think that you were scum, but that last post changed my mind.
And LARD isn't the only one who has said that you or TDS are scum. Graknorke hs also said something to that effect.
It's a big assumption to base the success of the game on. Maybe if it comes down to that by the end of the day, but I really am not comfortable with a decision like that now.No sorry, I said that I don't actually think that's the case.
Initiating startup sequence...This does not qualify as scumhunting. It is, as I said, trying to start another dogpile, which is a fine idea, as the last one was so telling, but it has very little basis in fact.
Scanning for hostiles...
Hostiles not found...
Engaging seek and destroy...
Well then, LARD. Killing off the "untrustworthy" IC's, are you?
You've covered your tracks well, but the kill on Tiruin is, as you said, a beginner mistake. One that a beginner would make. You're a beginner. A savvy one, but still a beginner, and this is where you slipped up.This, is not that sensible an argument to make. First, I cunningly and ruthlessly bus my scumbuddy, them I stupidly and inexperiencedly nk Tiruin, then I stupidly am the first to point out that an NK on Tiruin is a bad mafia move because it puts the blame on me. If that's what you're claiming, okay, but even from your end, it should seem a little unlikely.
I, as the most likely town, (I think)you missed the (I think)
This, is not that sensible an argument to make. First, I cunningly and ruthlessly bus my scumbuddy, them I stupidly and inexperiencedly nk Tiruin, then I stupidly am the first to point out that an NK on Tiruin is a bad mafia move because it puts the blame on me. If that's what you're claiming, okay, but even from your end, it should seem a little unlikely.I would say it's similar to a murderer reporting finding the body of their victim. It not only gives them an excuse as to why they would seem to have something to do with the crime with evidence of being there or to do with it, because they were there and so did have something to do with it; it also lets them have the scene discovered on their own terms, when everything is as they want it to be found. But naturally you can't just assume that the person who discovers a crime scene also committed the crime.
If I am scum and somebody is attacking me, I probably will attack them. It looks suspicious and I generally look suspicious when I play these games. So I can easily pass it off as the scum trying to kill someone and blame it on me, as I was the (sadly) deceased's target.I know this is contradictory to what I am saying now, but I have decided that ambiguity and not controversy.
LARD:You've covered your tracks well, but the kill on Tiruin is, as you said, a beginner mistake. One that a beginner would make. You're a beginner. A savvy one, but still a beginner, and this is where you slipped up.[1]This, is not that sensible an argument to make. First, I cunningly and ruthlessly bus my scumbuddy, them I stupidly and inexperiencedly nk Tiruin, then I stupidly am the first to point out that an NK on Tiruin is a bad mafia move because it puts the blame on me. If that's what you're claiming, okay, but even from your end, it should seem a little unlikely.
4. 4mask It's true that I didn't know which of you to lynch, and therefore I didn't really care. As you said, "Lynch one and powerrole the other." I just wanted to avoid a tie. I wasn't very invested in the game because no one else seemed to be. Now, however. . .
How about another challenge. I had tried to lay another trap. This one involved making myself suspicious, and the first person to jump on me is mafia, because the mafia want me gone. It was a stupid plan. But now we have a new scenario. [2]We have a bandwagoner on me, where only a bit before, he was [3]buddying me and asking, "Who do you want to lynch first?" Thank you mastahcheese, for bringing my trap to fruition, although not in the way I had intended, but we have a telling bandwagoner. How helpful that this bandwagoner was one who was one of the two to [4]vote me after Tiruin died, and then [5]panicked and flipped out. I apologize for flip-flopping. [6]I will tell you 4maskwolf, you are the person I want to lynch first."
Cheers, more to come
5. Mastahcheese. I make a few passing remarks about how I have a bit of evidence on my side, you ask persistent and repetitive questions about my (nonexistent) claims to be, "In the clear" and then you accuse me of being obsessed with it when I respond to your questions. What the hemorrhaging deuce.Few passing remarks? Missed the "I think?"I, as the most likely town, (I think)you missed the (I think)
See, here is my conundrum.Added the bolded bits. Why did you not include the first one? After all, you even included a nice little fallback phrase on that one, as well?
I am almost certain that one of 4maskwolf and TDS are mafia. But things just don't add up.
The mafia plan went as follows: Tiruin and LARD are fighting, so we kill the IC and blame it on the newb who is less able to defend himself. Then in the morning, declare it by voting him. As I have said before, it would have been a better idea to kill Graknorke or Mastacheese, so the mafia is probably more of a new player.
4maskwolf is a more experienced player, so why would he nk Tiruin and blame it on me, who is basically in the clear. (assuming that fact. We don't have to, but it might be a good idea) That would be a huge mistake for the mafia, although a normal townsperson could still make that mistake.
TDS seems a bit more likely to be mafia as he looks like he is panicking at this point, but he seems to be a thoughtful player and I can't see why he would try to pull a dumb mafia stunt like that.
I, as the most likely town, (I think) would like to request protection during tomorrow night. That should give the mafia a WIFOM to deal with at least. (I don't know if that was a good idea)
And thank you, 4maskwolf, for this. It's not original, but it made me laugh too.Also, LARD, your sig made me laugh.
Quite importantOh look, you did again. Once again, with a fallback phrase to protect yourself. You sure are trying hard to look town.
Thank you for acknowledging that I am most likely not scum. It would have been an absolutely awful move for me to bus solymr when nobody else suspected him.
-snip-
4maskwolf I agree that the mafia logic is flawed, that's my point. Tiruin was probably the second worst person to NK because his death would cast suspicion on me, who is standing pretty well. Thanks for admitting that you're not that experienced, but it doesn't help your case because the NK was probably and evidently by a inexperienced scum. I had forgotten about the scum IC. That changes things. Hmm, I'll have to think about that.Oh look, you forgot your fallback phrase that time.
mastahcheese [1] I agree that I am not confirmed town. But nobody else was attacking Solymr until he subbed and I didn't have much to go on. It would have been a terrible idea to bus on the first night, especially for someone prone to being suspicious like me. I'm a new player, so even though I know about bussing, I wouldn't have tried it on my first round. You'll have to take my word for it ;D. I understand your suspicions on me for saying, "I would never do that." But I will emphasize in my defense that I went for Solymr without any pressure or instigation from anyone else, and I didn't push that hard even when everybody was jumping on EHF. In short, I believe that the two votes on me right after the death of Tiruin are far more suspicious than my possible bussing, but all suspicions should be acted upon, so I encourage you to dig deeper.
I don't have any reason to believe that there is a jailkeeper, my post only will make the mafia think twice about who they attack and it should also confuse them.
Sorry about that Tiruin.And here, you more cleverly reference it, whist attacking me subtly.
If I am not scum, I was saying that I would be the mafia's target because people have behavioral reasons to believe I'm not. A person who most people think is town is likely to get nightkilled (I think) because they are unlikely to get lynched. I don't know what kind of answers you are looking for, mastahcheese but if you ask questions I will answer them the best I can. I haven't ruled out the possibility of you being mafia, mastacheese.
What happened to the discussion between mastacheese and Graknorke?
2. TDS, This looks like you are bandwagoning and when you give your reasoning, it is no more than anybody else's who posted before you. This seems like you were bussing when it looked as if EHF was going to get lynched regardless, therefore putting yourself in a good light. I also want to know about your suspicions on me, in light of the fact that the others think I'm certainly not a confirmed townie.Are you possibly slightly insulting those of us who are not convinced by your attitude of being confirmed town?
The FoS you had actually works against you in my opinion. A mafia would seek to distance himself from his mafia partner and if the partner started playing badly, or even slightly badly, a FoS would result in distancing yourself. Then you jumped on him when it looked like he would be lynched anyway. I think that looks extremely scummy. I am afraid TDS that you will have to answer to these, and other accusations, listed in my above posts and other people's.This. How much thought have you put into as to how to look "town"? It seems you're hitting it on the mark, in fact.
In addition. It seemed like TDS was panicking during his argument with 4mask and now he seems to have almost given up.
TDS Do not lose hope! If you are town, give us info so we will have something to work with after you are gone. If you are mafia, do the same thing. This will make it look like you are town.
I like to not use questions when I push people because it makes it too easy for them to answer with ambiguity. Having to defend yourself from a statement is more difficult.
As for my final statement on the matter, unless other questions provoke, I am not trying to prove myself in the clear. Only responding to you. I don't think myself as confirmed, and it wouldn't matter if I did because nobody else does. All I meant was that I had a piece of evidence on my sideThen why did you feel the need to mention it six damn times!
What do you want from me, Mastahcheese? Do you legitimately think I'm scum or are you just hunting?What do I want? I want for you to stop lying, and stop treating us like fools that can't see through you. I think that you are most definitely scum.
HI Pufferfish.
What do you think of the game so far?
I also like to attempt to prove I am town, or at least cite evidence, because it gives weight to my words.This is my reasoning for wanting people to think I am town, in essence, and that is generally the way I play. I believe that I shouldn't try to mimic everybody else's style, so that it will bring up interesting conversation.
-snip-I find mastahcheese's accusations kind of pointless.Pointless? Would you prefer me to just not attempt to hunt, since clearly it will offer up nothing? I suppose me saying that you're trying to brush off everything I accuse you of, which of course, is an argument that is only strengthened by your repeated attempts at deflecting/ignoring/outright insulting me, is just a waste of time?
On a side note, I am getting my laughs reading Kingmaker IV. Great game, eh Jim?
I have no desire to carry on this discussion about confirmed town any further, but I have this to say. Lying? It just seems like semantics at this point. I don't like this branch of conversation, and although I still think you are repeating yourself, I will not rebutt, except to say that you are still picking and choosing in your bolded quotes, not picking all the relevant information. That's okay, though. You are scumhunting and I respect that. I don't think Mastahcheese is scum, but 4mask seems like the most likely one to me. I'd rather this calmed down and we assigned it the importance it deserves.
As for my final statement on the matter, unless other questions provoke, I am not trying to prove myself in the clear. Only responding to you. I don't think myself as confirmed, and it wouldn't matter if I did because nobody else does. All I meant was that I had a piece of evidence on my side
What do you want from me, Mastahcheese? Do you legitimately think I'm scum or are you just hunting?
I would apologize for the confusion, but I don't think it's mine to apologize for.
As for 4maskwolf's points, I thought I explained my reasoning for my vote flip-flop, but here they are again.
I voted TDS because he seemed to be the most suspicious and panicky at that time, (see other reasons, if you care)
I switched to 4mask because while TDS was giving us stuff to work with when he was gone (I thought it was certain at that time because I didn't know second extends were allowed), 4mask was preparing for how he would act when the person he was so sure was scum turned out to be town, and not probing about whether they were town, or scum, or whatever.
I switched back to TDS because I thought things would result in a tie, and didn't want that.
Finally I switched back to 4mask because the tie turned out not to be happening, I saw him bandwagoning and we got an extend.
4mask I apologize, I didn't realize that you had had a rough week before the OMGUS. I will leave it be.
A vote on me right after Tiruin's death fits into the mafia's perceived (by me) plan.
Bandwagoning is a serious offence and I really would like to know why you didn't vote me before Mastahcheese did. I have already explained the voteswitching.
Your point #4 is, to be frank, ridiculous, irrelevant and seems to piggyback off what mastahcheese has been saying.
I sincerely hope whatever is wrong on your end clears up, 4mask . . . but my vote is staying on you. Cheers
What part of my response to mastahcheese do you find suspicious. I find mastahcheese's accusations kind of pointless.I find you suspicious, LARD. You've been pushing hard on this whole "confirmed townie" thing, then backing off when pressured, then subtly going back to it. You're post with Cheese was just the icing on the cake.
A vote on me right after Tiruin's death fits into the mafia's perceived (by me) plan.In addition. 4mask voted me only after Mastahcheese did, although he said he had been suspicious of me for a while.
Bandwagoning is a serious offence and I really would like to know why you didn't vote me before Mastahcheese did. I have already explained the voteswitching.
Your point #4 is, to be frank, ridiculous, irrelevant and seems to piggyback off what mastahcheese has been saying.
...LARD. The vote switching confirms it. You don't care which one of us gets lynched, because you are the scum. You don't even ask TDS any questions, you just say "Well, I'm going to try to avoid a tie". Only a scum or a townie who thinks he's caught scum would care about that, and you aren't staying on target. You're making the vague accusation of "one of you is guilty because argument" and trying to get one of us lynched. You've covered your tracks well, but the kill on Tiruin is, as you said, a beginner mistake. One that a beginner would make. You're a beginner. A savvy one, but still a beginner, and this is where you slipped up.
Had you kept your vote on me after seeing Mastah's vote change, you could have gotten me lynched and gone on your merry way, with TDS being summarily executed tomorrow while you sat behind your confirmed town status. Before that, even after Mastah's accusations, I didn't think that you were scum, but that last post changed my mind.
and this alone. I don't feel that anything else I said was out of order.you have the IQ of the common pencil sharpener
I don't understand how people misunderstand, "Mastahcheese, your arguments are repetitive and weren't valid in the first place. I do not wish to talk on the subject anymore." as me giving up under his accusations or backing off.LARD: I specifically said that I was suspicious of your pushing the whole town thing.
As for a solid argument, I gave my reasons.A vote on me right after Tiruin's death fits into the mafia's perceived (by me) plan.In addition. 4mask voted me only after Mastahcheese did, although he said he had been suspicious of me for a while.
Bandwagoning is a serious offence and I really would like to know why you didn't vote me before Mastahcheese did. I have already explained the voteswitching.
Your point #4 is, to be frank, ridiculous, irrelevant and seems to piggyback off what mastahcheese has been saying.
His reasons for putting the vote on me:...LARD. The vote switching confirms it. You don't care which one of us gets lynched, because you are the scum. You don't even ask TDS any questions, you just say "Well, I'm going to try to avoid a tie". Only a scum or a townie who thinks he's caught scum would care about that, and you aren't staying on target. You're making the vague accusation of "one of you is guilty because argument" and trying to get one of us lynched. You've covered your tracks well, but the kill on Tiruin is, as you said, a beginner mistake. One that a beginner would make. You're a beginner. A savvy one, but still a beginner, and this is where you slipped up.
Had you kept your vote on me after seeing Mastah's vote change, you could have gotten me lynched and gone on your merry way, with TDS being summarily executed tomorrow while you sat behind your confirmed town status. Before that, even after Mastah's accusations, I didn't think that you were scum, but that last post changed my mind.
The main points of the argument are in bold, I think. Add more if you like 4mask. But for now there are only two of them, and the first one you admitted was already irrelevant, because I was avoiding a tie. (I do care which is lynched, as I made clear. I would rather it be 4mask, but I was willing to switch back to my 2nd choice if I needed to to avoid a tie.)
The second point is really not all that relevant either, because it applies to all beginners, and I pointed the mistake out in the first place.
I also don't have confirmed town status. Saying that in a post where you put a second vote on me (putting me in the lead for votes) is odd.
4mask has no case and are just riding the coat tails of Mastahcheese who is scumhunting me like crazy.
Mastahcheese
I apologize for thisand this alone. I don't feel that anything else I said was out of order.you have the IQ of the common pencil sharpener
And your argument is not strengthened by my deflections for the simple reason that your argument was never valid. It is a dumb, simplistic argument based on me saying, "I have a bit of evidence on my side" I will repeat myself. You are arguing semantics. I believe that my meaning was always quite clear and if it wasn't initially, I have made my position clear in response to pretty much all your arguments. I don't object to scumhunting, but why don't you hunt something that actually has a bit of grounding. All I did was mention in passing that I had evidence on my side. This was to give weight to my words and to add power to my accusations on those who were accusing me. Accusing me is not scummy in itself but more so because it seems to fit well with the mafia's plan of killing Tiruin and blaming it on me because I attracted so much attention in day 1.
You have been distracting everybody with your repetitve scum-hunt for a long time. I have not been lying. I have not been wasting your time. I also do not think you are scum, because you scumhunted Graknorke so hard in day 1, so this is just your style I suppose. But I tire of it's repetitiveness. It is not brushing it off because there is nothing new to brush off. Only the old. If you want to scumhunt me, fine. But find a different angle, please. . . . pretty please? I even have a suggestion. You could go after me for my tendency to accuse those who accuse me. I think that one is a bit more of a scumtell than the one you are currently on.
Sláinte everyone.
Okay, so you voted TDS first, but that was in that odd OMGUS battle you had with TDS, as well as riding Graknorke's accusations of him. So yes, you were the first to vote him, but that isn't really a point in your favour.Riding Graknorke's accusations... maybe you should go reread that. I got into that battle with him long before Graknorke got online.
TheDarkStar, I noticed that so far you've never been first onto a vote. It's always been after someone else made the first move. Any reason why you haven't instigated and carried through with anything? Always soon after too, like you're copying what other people say.Here you go! Not as much as I thought there was, but it definitely precedes you.
Perhaps, but if you notice I attack him on much broader grounds than that. Yes, PART of my argument sounds like Graknorke's, but the rest of it is my own.TheDarkStar, I noticed that so far you've never been first onto a vote. It's always been after someone else made the first move. Any reason why you haven't instigated and carried through with anything? Always soon after too, like you're copying what other people say.Here you go! Not as much as I thought there was, but it definitely precedes you.
Everyone, especially mastahcheese: If this is how people react to a supposed bus, why does anybody do it?Because the reaction is subjective, not set in stone as a rule on how people react.
Everyone, especially mastahcheese: If this is how people react to a supposed bus, why does anybody do it?(Tiruin sorta answered the big one on the subjectiveness)
Everyone, especially mastahcheese: If this is how people react to a supposed bus, why does anybody do it?Because usually a bus would go smoother than yours. If you were bussing you certainly didn't do it well, since nobody actually thought Solymr was scummy. Though I don't see what you did as bussing, it seemed more like a token effort at hunting him to me, you never really addressed anything in the way Persus did, you just said he was "vague" and voted. Like you didn't actually want your vote to go through.
PPE: We really need to avoid a tie tonight. Someone needs to add another vote to 4maskwolf to break the tie; even if he is not scum, we get important information.Wow that's actually pretty incriminating. I'm surprised nobody picked up on it at the time. It's like you don't think he's scum but want him lynched anyway, with flimsy reasoning. If you are town and 4mask gets lynched and flips town, what does that tell you? There's no way you could clear someone of suspicion of being his buddy because there can only be one scum left. You can't use the people who voted for him to determine who's scum, because there's only you and LARD so far who have, and neither of you are looking good.
4mask: Please give me your other reasons for suspecting TDS other than his irresponsible voting habits, which Graknorke mentioned.I went after him on the grounds of statement of falsehood, fallacious logic, and scum-oriented play. Which you already know, if you know I attacked him on the grounds of voting habits, because that was right in the mix.
Everyone, especially mastahcheese: If this is how people react to a supposed bus, why does anybody do it?
4mask: Please give me your other reasons for suspecting TDS other than his irresponsible voting habits, which Graknorke mentioned.
Everyone, especially mastahcheese: If this is how people react to a supposed bus, why does anybody do it?
Whoops Tiruin was lynched.What question?
4Mask: You have the question directed at Tiruin.
Whoops Tiruin was lynched.What question?
4Mask: You have the question directed at Tiruin.
Tiruin: What's your stance on the situation? I want to hear it from you mostly because you have pretty words but also because I'd like to see what you're making of this all.
Why thank you for saying I have pretty words :PWhoops Tiruin was lynched.What question?
4Mask: You have the question directed at Tiruin.Tiruin: What's your stance on the situation? I want to hear it from you mostly because you have pretty words but also because I'd like to see what you're making of this all.
I don't understand how people misunderstand, "Mastahcheese, your arguments are repetitive and weren't valid in the first place. I do not wish to talk on the subject anymore." as me giving up under his accusations or backing off.There is a reason for everything--a reason why the argument exists and is presented towards or against you.
Whoops Tiruin was lynched.I was ded not lynched. :I
Insinuating you're town[...]Do note, everyone, that if you are town--saying that you are town is never a convincing standpoint.
Tiruin: What's your stance on the situation? I want to hear it from you mostly because you have pretty words but also because I'd like to see what you're making of this all.I've pretty words?
MastahCheese: You are tunneling on LARD. Why aren't you checking in on other people's stories? 4Mask for example? Or Tiruin? Tiruin's hella hard to catch if she's scum, let me tell you. Though I think you were there for that game.Well, for one: I have difficulty multi-tasking once I'm focused on something, which I really need to work on.
...LARD. The vote switching confirms it. You don't care which one of us gets lynched, because you are the scum. You don't even ask TDS any questions, you just say "Well, I'm going to try to avoid a tie". Only a scum or a townie who thinks he's caught scum would care about that, and you aren't staying on target. You're making the vague accusation of "one of you is guilty because argument" and trying to get one of us lynched. You've covered your tracks well, but the kill on Tiruin is, as you said, a beginner mistake. One that a beginner would make. You're a beginner. A savvy one, but still a beginner, and this is where you slipped up.Avoiding a tie is a noble deed
Could someone explain the charges against me that will lead to a lynch on me tomorrow?This is what he says while he is trying to get the scenario of Lynch TDS and power role the other. If that really was his plan, then this wouldn't be necessary, because the power role will be telling and quite likely clear or convict him if he was targeted. This isn't one of the stronger points, but I thought it was worth mentioning.
Scum oriented play is ambiguous, and an annoying thing to get accused of.4mask: Please give me your other reasons for suspecting TDS other than his irresponsible voting habits, which Graknorke mentioned.I went after him on the grounds of statement of falsehood, fallacious logic, and scum-oriented play. Which you already know, if you know I attacked him on the grounds of voting habits, because that was right in the mix.
TDS,PPE: We really need to avoid a tie tonight. Someone needs to add another vote to 4maskwolf to break the tie; even if he is not scum, we get important information.Wow that's actually pretty incriminating. I'm surprised nobody picked up on it at the time. It's like you don't think he's scum but want him lynched anyway, with flimsy reasoning. If you are town and 4mask gets lynched and flips town, what does that tell you? There's no way you could clear someone of suspicion of being his buddy because there can only be one scum left. You can't use the people who voted for him to determine who's scum, because there's only you and LARD so far who have, and neither of you are looking good.
So please explain TheDarkStar, what could you learn from a townlynch on 4mask?
Well. They protected either the target or blocked the mafia. Up to them to find out now, eh?No, I mean the actual flavour text. The jailkeeper model can render a T800 completely functionless during the night, making them both invincible and unable to do anything. The course of action that lead to the terminator being stuck in the press was most likely that the jailkeeper had shut it down, then the Skynet terminator closed the press on its head. Then when the jailkept terminator awoke in the morning, it found itself stuck.
As far as I know, BM's don't work that way. The entire point of a BM is that it is for beginners: no hints in the flavortext.Well. They protected either the target or blocked the mafia. Up to them to find out now, eh?No, I mean the actual flavour text. The jailkeeper model can render a T800 completely functionless during the night, making them both invincible and unable to do anything. The course of action that lead to the terminator being stuck in the press was most likely that the jailkeeper had shut it down, then the Skynet terminator closed the press on its head. Then when the jailkept terminator awoke in the morning, it found itself stuck.
Alright, I need to ask everybody a question, since there was no kill, which indicates the presence of a jailkeeper.I don't know.
Who do you think would have been the best idea for a night kill last night?
Who do you think would have been the worse?
Why did you have an answer for the worst, but not the best, 4maskwolf?Because the best is really dependent on who the scum is. The best person for Graknorke-scum to kill is different from TDS-scum is different from 4mask-scum. The age-old answer to the question is: whoever you think you can get away with and help your team win.
Alright, I need to ask everybody a question, since there was no kill, which indicates the presence of a jailkeeper.
Who do you think would have been the best idea for a night kill last night?
Who do you think would have been the worse?
Also, this is drifting into the realm of obvious-jailkeep from you.You say this as if you'd know who a jailkeeper would target.
Mastah: Why do you think this question is so important? What we really need to know is who the JailKeeper save/blocked.Fine, do you want to know who I blocked?
Now my dear pufferfish: even if it is a WIFOM question, if he actually is the jailkeep I can only assume there is some kind of evidence he wants out of this. If he's not, there is no harm in answering your personal opinions.Alright, I need to ask everybody a question, since there was no kill, which indicates the presence of a jailkeeper.
Who do you think would have been the best idea for a night kill last night?
Who do you think would have been the worse?
This is a pretty WIFOM question. There is no one "best" kill. Or worst kill.
Mastah: Why do you think this question is so important? What we really need to know is who the JailKeeper save/blocked.
No, I say this as if the way you phrased your statement yesterday and the questions you are asking today are a jailkeep gambit.Also, this is drifting into the realm of obvious-jailkeep from you.You say this as if you'd know who a jailkeeper would target.
... That's an interesting turn of events.Mastah: Why do you think this question is so important? What we really need to know is who the JailKeeper save/blocked.Fine, do you want to know who I blocked?
I blocked 4mask.
This requires some thinking that I'm not prepared to do right now, but who would have had the incentive to kill me last night?Which you say right after an argument to try to get Pufferfish killed. An accusation that almost seemed rehearsed, 4mask
... To try and get him killed? I said he was on the suspicion list, Cheese, that's a far cry from getting him killed. That accusation is a stretch to begin with, which is more indicative of a stupid scum gambit than a legitimate town jail keeper claim.This requires some thinking that I'm not prepared to do right now, but who would have had the incentive to kill me last night?Which you say right after an argument to try to get Pufferfish killed. An accusation that almost seemed rehearsed, 4mask
Now my dear pufferfish: even if it is a WIFOM question, if he actually is the jailkeep I can only assume there is some kind of evidence he wants out of this. If he's not, there is no harm in answering your personal opinions.
You have just placed yourself on the suspicion list on multiple grounds: not answering a question, casting the tiebreaker vote to avoid a deadlocked no-lynch situation, which a scum would do. I'll have to review your previous posts, but there was something in them that sent alert sirens blaring.
... To try and get him killed? I said he was on the suspicion list, Cheese, that's a far cry from getting him killed. That accusation is a stretch to begin with, which is more indicative of a stupid scum gambit than a legitimate town jail keeper claim.If you were actually town, you'd be more focused on trying to say that I'm lying about being a jailkeeper, but no, you accepted it because you know it was true.
With this new information, the posts from both you and Mastah are now under suspicion. Mastah, if he's lying, and you, if he's telling the truth.I know of exactly the charges against me, I took that into account before I claimed.
With this new information, the posts from both you and Mastah are now under suspicion. Mastah, if he's lying, and you, if he's telling the truth.I know of exactly the charges against me, I took that into account before I claimed.
Oh, and the reason I completely dropped the case on Grak after night 1? He was the one I blocked, so I knew he was innocent.
After all, it was both TDS and you that were up for the chooping block before we lynched LARD, yet you act as though nobody in their right mind would ever consider accusing you.Alright Mr. Cheese, let us review the scenario:
Let's face it, you would be a terrible target to kill, because after TDS, you'd be next.... To try and get him killed? I said he was on the suspicion list, Cheese, that's a far cry from getting him killed. That accusation is a stretch to begin with, which is more indicative of a stupid scum gambit than a legitimate town jail keeper claim.If you were actually town, you'd be more focused on trying to say that I'm lying about being a jailkeeper, but no, you accepted it because you know it was true.
Alright Mr. Cheese, let us review the scenario:If you really considered me shrewd, and knew exactly how shrewd I am, then you know that I'd never take a 50/50 gamble on there being a jailkeeper or not especially this early on.
Nobody died last night. This indicates the presence of a jailkeep, and the way you acted yesterday had you at the top of my list for who the town power roles were. I keep a list even as town, for THIS EXACT TYPE OF SCENARIO. Then, you claim jailkeeper. I have seen nothing scummy from your arena previously, and I already thought you had a power role, so yes, I believed you.
Then you launched an attack against me on extremely misconstrued and shaky evidence. This shook my confidence in you, because that is behavior characteristic of scum.
A day is a long time, cheese, and while I could have been next after TDS, that would be putting a lot on the line. I can see you are a shrewd player, and this seems like a well-thought-out scum play to me. You don't kill me, then claim jailkeeper and accuse me of being scum. I die, you kill in the night, and the race is on for the town to find the person who would have targeted me. However, since the game is in MYLO, everybody no-lynches, and you do not perform a night kill. Once again, you claim to have blocked someone in the night, they get lynched, and the game is over. You night-kill and win.
That's putting a lot on the line, Cheese. Why did you gamble so early?
The fact of the matter was that 4mask would not have been a good kill target, because he was generally considered suspicious, just not as much as TDS.Erm... While I'm glad you consider me a good scum player, you must realize that in that game I was effectively cleared for one action. It was just a matter of not drawing undue attention to myself.
I've worked with 4mask on a scum team in the Good/Bad/Ugly, he's a good scum player, he can cover his tracks well, that's why I chose to block him, rather than TDS.Alright Mr. Cheese, let us review the scenario:If you really considered me shrewd, and knew exactly how shrewd I am, then you know that I'd never take a 50/50 gamble on there being a jailkeeper or not especially this early on.
Nobody died last night. This indicates the presence of a jailkeep, and the way you acted yesterday had you at the top of my list for who the town power roles were. I keep a list even as town, for THIS EXACT TYPE OF SCENARIO. Then, you claim jailkeeper. I have seen nothing scummy from your arena previously, and I already thought you had a power role, so yes, I believed you.
Then you launched an attack against me on extremely misconstrued and shaky evidence. This shook my confidence in you, because that is behavior characteristic of scum.
A day is a long time, cheese, and while I could have been next after TDS, that would be putting a lot on the line. I can see you are a shrewd player, and this seems like a well-thought-out scum play to me. You don't kill me, then claim jailkeeper and accuse me of being scum. I die, you kill in the night, and the race is on for the town to find the person who would have targeted me. However, since the game is in MYLO, everybody no-lynches, and you do not perform a night kill. Once again, you claim to have blocked someone in the night, they get lynched, and the game is over. You night-kill and win.
That's putting a lot on the line, Cheese. Why did you gamble so early?
You neglected to take that one into consideration.
Okay. 4mask, are you JailKeep? Graknorke? JailKeep?I am not the jailkeep. I don't believe that there is a jailkeep.
I'd ask TDS but they're not with us right now. I am not the JailKeep.
Oh, sorry, I forgot the actual percentages on that. The point being that if I wouldn't take a 50/50 chance, I wouldn't take a 50/50 chance, even if it's actually 66.6/33.3 percent, if you want to be technical about it. You're really trying hard to discredit me, aren't you?Yes, yes you would. From my play experience with you, you would.
Here, Let me go.
EVERYONE IN THIS GAME: Are you the Jailkeeper? Would the "real" jailkeeper please stand up?
The fact of the matter is you can't beat the fact that I'm claiming honestly. Would the person you know to be me really be this brazen, if I weren't 100% sure of it?
Yes, yes you would. From my play experience with you, you would.Really? Name one time where I have, in fact, done this. Because I don't remember this.
The fact that there is not another claiming jailkeep does not make your claims true, cheese. It merely means that either your gamble paid off or you almost botched a claim.
You came close to this in GBU, where you would have gotten yourself lynched D2 had anybody been paying attention.Yes, yes you would. From my play experience with you, you would.Really? Name one time where I have, in fact, done this. Because I don't remember this.
The fact that there is not another claiming jailkeep does not make your claims true, cheese. It merely means that either your gamble paid off or you almost botched a claim.
And no, that in and of itself doesn't make it true, but the fact that it is truth makes it a true claim.
I really doubt that you are anything other than scum, because nobody would try to kill you, with the way it was, and your theory about not killing to gain a trusted position for a ride to victory is not a chance I would make.
I know full well that if, somehow, you turn out to be town, that I'll be next to go. I'll even vote myself and shorten, if that's what's needed, because that will mean that I've failed in my power to protect the town from scum like you.
You came close to this in GBU, where you would have gotten yourself lynched D2 had anybody been paying attention.I hardly consider that to be of the same caliber as this, I wasn't claiming a power role that I didn't have in that game. I wasn't even claiming anything in that.
NEVER do the vote self and shorten thing, scumbiscuit. Promising that indicates you are already planning for that possibility, and if you were certain I was the scum there is no reason to die like that.
Initiating startup sequence...
Scanning for hostiles...
Hostiles not found...
Engaging seek and destroy...
Well then, LARD. Killing off the "untrustworthy" IC's, are you?
And reads:
4maskwolf: much activity and hunting. Most likely to be town.
Graknorke: also very active. Another good contender for town.
Mastahcheese: isn't asking too many questions but doesn't seem too suspicious.
TDS: quite active. Probable town.
DP: seems like he's trying to avoid answering certain questions and doesn't make himself clear. Slight scum.
LARD: pretty much everything he says points to scum.
The ICs I'll wait until Day2 to get a good read.
And about the NK and such, why not ask the pros?
For the ICs: if you were scum and people told you who they think that's going to get killed, what would you do?
I personally think that scum could use that info to get the town into a massive WIFOM and drive everyone nuts.
If the power role takes action by acting on 4maskwolf, you can have some extra room. Tomorrow, if there's no kill, assume there's a jailor and the 4maskwolf is bad. Even if you are wrong, the scum had to waste a kill. If there's a kill (and that person is not the rolecop) and there's no rolecop claim, assume that 4maskwolf is innocent (surprisingly) and go after DP, who is also scummy (unless someone else does something). Unless you are extremely unlucky, there are two lynches after mine before LyLo (if the investigator dies tonight, it's one).
PPE: We really need to avoid a tie tonight. Someone needs to add another vote to 4maskwolf to break the tie; even if he is not scum, we get important information.
Also, the power role should target me or 4maskwolf tonight; that way, we get info from the dead person and from the live one.
...LARD. The vote switching confirms it. You don't care which one of us gets lynched, because you are the scum. You don't even ask TDS any questions, you just say "Well, I'm going to try to avoid a tie". Only a scum or a townie who thinks he's caught scum would care about that, and you aren't staying on target. You're making the vague accusation of "one of you is guilty because argument" and trying to get one of us lynched. You've covered your tracks well, but the kill on Tiruin is, as you said, a beginner mistake. One that a beginner would make. You're a beginner. A savvy one, but still a beginner, and this is where you slipped up.
Had you kept your vote on me after seeing Mastah's vote change, you could have gotten me lynched and gone on your merry way, with TDS being summarily executed tomorrow while you sat behind your confirmed town status. Before that, even after Mastah's accusations, I didn't think that you were scum, but that last post changed my mind.
Bandwagoning? I gave you my reasons. I had been suspicious for a while, but the way you acted in the post responding to cheese's vote sealed the deal.
TheDarkStar, I noticed that so far you've never been first onto a vote. It's always been after someone else made the first move. Any reason why you haven't instigated and carried through with anything? Always soon after too, like you're copying what other people say.Here you go! Not as much as I thought there was, but it definitely precedes you.
Mastah: Why do you think this question is so important? What we really need to know is who the JailKeeper save/blocked.Fine, do you want to know who I blocked?
I blocked 4mask.
...Which means it's either me, 4mask, or TDS that is scum.
Time to hunt, folks.
TDS: Where have you been? Consider this a wake-up call. What do you think of the current situation? Make a few posts and I'll consider un-voting you.
Not that this does not preclude my hunt of you, 4mask.
After all, it was both TDS and you that were up for the chooping block before we lynched LARD, yet you act as though nobody in their right mind would ever consider accusing you.Alright Mr. Cheese, let us review the scenario:
Let's face it, you would be a terrible target to kill, because after TDS, you'd be next.... To try and get him killed? I said he was on the suspicion list, Cheese, that's a far cry from getting him killed. That accusation is a stretch to begin with, which is more indicative of a stupid scum gambit than a legitimate town jail keeper claim.If you were actually town, you'd be more focused on trying to say that I'm lying about being a jailkeeper, but no, you accepted it because you know it was true.
Nobody died last night. This indicates the presence of a jailkeep, and the way you acted yesterday had you at the top of my list for who the town power roles were. I keep a list even as town, for THIS EXACT TYPE OF SCENARIO. Then, you claim jailkeeper. I have seen nothing scummy from your arena previously, and I already thought you had a power role, so yes, I believed you.
Then you launched an attack against me on extremely misconstrued and shaky evidence. This shook my confidence in you, because that is behavior characteristic of scum.
A day is a long time, cheese, and while I could have been next after TDS, that would be putting a lot on the line. I can see you are a shrewd player, and this seems like a well-thought-out scum play to me. You don't kill me, then claim jailkeeper and accuse me of being scum. I die, you kill in the night, and the race is on for the town to find the person who would have targeted me. However, since the game is in MYLO, everybody no-lynches, and you do not perform a night kill. Once again, you claim to have blocked someone in the night, they get lynched, and the game is over. You night-kill and win.
That's putting a lot on the line, Cheese. Why did you gamble so early?
Persus1. LARD was one of the players who led the mafia lynch D1. This makes me see him as town in my eyes. Plus most of your reasons for him being scum were bad and most could be ascribed to a town player. In this game, often you need to think from the other person's perspective, and oftentimes that is something people don't do.
1.So you believe that LARD is in the clear? No argument about this? What makes you so confident?
2.You say that 4mask wasn't hunting, siting only the first post he made. Did you look at any other post he made? How about this post of his (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=136649.msg5069956#msg5069956), when he was arguing with TDS? He is hunting scum, he just hunts whoever seems the scummiest, and TDS replied before LARD did, and it seemed to have changed his mind.
3.You then also say that 4mask seems town, right after claiming that he wasn't scumhunting. What makes him seem town, then, if you don't believe that? Also, again, why is it that you seem so sure that LARD is town?
And what is it that seems scummy about Grak, now? I've stopped viewing him as scum, what's bothering you?
Sorry, I think I may have misattributed that to you. But I'm fairly sure that LARD isn't the only one who made a case that either TDS or 4maskwolf was scum.And LARD isn't the only one who has said that you or TDS are scum. Graknorke hs also said something to that effect.It's a big assumption to base the success of the game on. Maybe if it comes down to that by the end of the day, but I really am not comfortable with a decision like that now.No sorry, I said that I don't actually think that's the case.
Extend again, interesting developments always showing up before day end.
Persus13, could you go over why you voted for mastahcheese and think that I'm scum? You didn't really explain so much as you did say it and lay down a vote.I don't like it when people attack someone for remarks taken out of context. It feels like a very scum move. I was suspicious of you because you didn't seem very towny and no one was attacking you. I didn't think you were scum, I just was very suspicious of you.
Bahh. Wow. I led a mafia lynch first day and got myself lynched day 2. I must have played quite terribly to pull that off. Sorry guys. And thank you all for the fun. May you find all that you seek.
Don't worry, I'm pretty sure this will be the first Mafia game that I survive to the end to, and I've played 5 games or so.Well clearly that would mean the game won't end, as you surviving would be heresy.[/sarcasm]
Well, that shook things up.Games over. Just waiting of Jimbot to return and deliver the day's verdict.
unvote TDS, I still find your behaviour counterproductive, but not to the same degree as 4mask.
Bahh. Wow. I led a mafia lynch first day and got myself lynched day 2. I must have played quite terribly to pull that off. Sorry guys. And thank you all for the fun. May you find all that you seek.*punches LARD*
Oh my god cheese you were to be the victim of that night great save of yourself.I just read through that and read that.
I hate jailkeepeers. I hate being scum. And I hate my life. Not necessarily in that order.I'm sorry...
I hate jailkeepeers. I hate being scum. And I hate my life. Not necessarily in that order.It wasn't you--it was how the cases were presented. In all honesty? I really bought your counter to mastah's idea--though you do need to refine it more. :)
Congratulations to the town. I'd like to thank Epichighfive321 and Pufferfish for replacing in and for 4maskwolf for persevering through.^
It wasn't you--it was how the cases were presented. In all honesty? I really bought your counter to mastah's idea--though you do need to refine it more. :)See, I don't know why, but I seem to be able to pull conspiracy theories out of my arse and people often buy into them. That's seriously the fourth bullshit theory I've brought up in two games.
And no, Cheese, I don't have a problem with YOU as jailkeep....Do you want to talk about it?
I don't know how to be subtle! I'm hardwired to ATTACKATTACKATTACK... What? This isn't Bay12 therapy. I don't have any problem with you is what I was trying to say.And no, Cheese, I don't have a problem with YOU as jailkeep....Do you want to talk about it?
I hate jailkeepeers. I hate being scum. And I hate my life. Not necessarily in that order.
I actually though that TDS was the scum, so I chose to block 4mask, because I figured you'd be next anyway.Explain? This is interesting.
It's over on the banter thread. Let's shift the convo there.I actually though that TDS was the scum, so I chose to block 4mask, because I figured you'd be next anyway.Explain? This is interesting.
this is the fastest BM ive seen. congats to the town!
Woo!this is the fastest BM ive seen. congats to the town!
Thanks!
Bahh. Wow. I led a mafia lynch first day and got myself lynched day 2. I must have played quite terribly to pull that off. Sorry guys. And thank you all for the fun. May you find all that you seek.*punches LARD*
You note the rules of township and adhere to them young man! :I
Assuming this rule, I don't think I broke it.
- Death - When you are dead, you are prohibited from posting in the thread. You may make a single 'bah' post after you die, however, it must not contain any game-related information.
Persus. He's more active and slightly less tempermental than Tiruin, meaning he is more likely to see through our disguises. Also, I'll scan Tiruin tonight.What does this mean 4mask? o_O
Fair enough, I think everyone thinks I'm just retarded, not scum.No. You aren't.
Realize that though the town are divided in principle and in structure, they hold the same intent. You do not need to live to win as even if you are dead--what you give out in life (and how others respond to you, while you can) is what matters.It means that in my experience, you tend to be an emotional person as well as an analytical one, and at the time I thought I could use that to slip your notice. By the end of D1, though, I realized that my assumption wasn't true. Be honored: I don't choose my first nightkill lightly :P.
See: Scumhunting book.Quote from: scumchatPersus. He's more active and slightly less tempermental than Tiruin, meaning he is more likely to see through our disguises. Also, I'll scan Tiruin tonight.What does this mean 4mask? o_O
EDIT:Quote from: EHF > ScumchatFair enough, I think everyone thinks I'm just retarded, not scum.No. You aren't.
I also learned that trying to make yourself town-like is a terrible move for some reason.Town doesn't need to prove to others they are town. If you are town you know it and only need to worry about catching scum. Scum, however, need to worry about appearing town, since otherwise they'll get caught. So trying to look town is a scum move. Hope I cleared that out.
This.I also learned that trying to make yourself town-like is a terrible move for some reason.Town doesn't need to prove to others they are town. If you are town you know it and only need to worry about catching scum. Scum, however, need to worry about appearing town, since otherwise they'll get caught. So trying to look town is a scum move. Hope I cleared that out.
Also, what Tiruin said: you don't need to be alive to win as any alignment except survivor. If your death helps your team, then there is no reason to get angry over it.
I learned that mastahcheese likes to pound one person each day.I will choose not to refute this.
Also, Cheese, good job outwitting me there. I thought I had you...You have no frelling idea how long I was sitting there, with my action to Jim Groovester, debating on what would be the best choice. That choice was by far the most stressful one I made in this game.
Okay, that's fine. You did play well, although I don't much care for your style.I learned that mastahcheese likes to pound one person each day.I will choose not to refute this.