Huh, I might have lots of work, but I wanna be in the game! Will it cause problems, if I will have to ask for replacement later?JOIN!!!!!
Hi painiac! :DWE NEED IC'S!!!!
Huh, I might have lots of work, but I wanna be in the game! Will it cause problems, if I will have to ask for replacement later?Maybe. Depends on how later and if there are any replacements available.
Hi painiac! :DWE NEED IC'S!!!!
Huh, I might have lots of work, but I wanna be in the game! Will it cause problems, if I will have to ask for replacement later?I'm putting you on the replacement list.
No Jim can't IC. If he did, the town would rally around whoever listened his advice and lynch them.But I miss him IC'ing.
No Jim can't IC. If he did, the town would rally around whoever listened his advice and lynch them.But I miss him IC'ing.
Can I be scum IC? :D
Pff. She should be, as she's nearly always scum >_>No Jim can't IC. If he did, the town would rally around whoever listened his advice and lynch them.But I miss him IC'ing.
Can I be scum IC? :D
I'm scared for town now. You're really good scum.
Sure.No Jim can't IC. If he did, the town would rally around whoever listened his advice and lynch them.But I miss him IC'ing.
Can I be scum IC? :D
Playing IC is a more necessary and nobler calling anyway.Then join!
Too busy.Fair enough....
I dunno. Has he ever been scum before? Has he ever won as scum?Yes. No. Your BM was one of the first games he ever survived until D3.
I dunno. Has he ever been scum before? Has he ever won as scum?
What are the qualifications for being an IC, anyway?that's an interesting question.
I don't really know who's qualified other than the blatantly obvious ones like NQT, Tiruin, Nerjin, Jim, Persus, etc.
How many games have you played in, again? Sorry I forgot.As many as you have, my dead cheese, if memory serves. Did you play any games before the first BM we played together? Because I have only finished three games:
Yeah, I think that Jim is the best judge of that, I think he should just keep a list of accepted ICs somewhere so that BM mods know who to badger about getting a game running.
BM: Goddamn Jailkeepers as scum cop.To be frank, it was how you went along with it that sealed it. :P
What are the qualifications for being an IC, anyway?that's an interesting question.
It is whatever Jim says, apparently, because he's been the one to make the executive decisions recently.
What are the qualifications for being an IC, anyway?Its all subjective. Just like when mods decide who's qualified to play in each game.
I don't really know who's qualified other than the blatantly obvious ones like NQT, Tiruin, Nerjin, Jim, Persus, etc.
Ahh well. Let me know if someone changes their mind.Hooray for backup ICs
NQT: Two questions:1. Possibly. 2. No. Do you see yourself employing analytical techniques?
1. Do you have a more efficient scumhunting algorithm now, and
2. Are you going to tell the scum all about it like in GBU?
Whitius Opus: Hi there. What made you want to join another mafia game?Well, your's is progressing nicely, I just felt the learning curve a bit, and decided to try the beginners mafia. I've only been in yours, and it's pretty challenging keeping track of all the different traits and slips a person makes. I think that getting more experience first, before attempting a game with veterans, is a more viable option.
Whitius You're new right? Ask everyone a question.Sure thing. I'm new, but know the basics of mafia, so I understand the D1 procedures. Kinda.
4maskwolf: What made you want to join this game, while mod'ing one of your own?lolz random vote. I have joined every game in signups since my first BM, and and currently am playing in three games in addition to modding one. I decided to join because I want to eventually be able to IC, and the best way to do that is to prove oneself competent.
NAV You're scum aren't you?What makes you think I'm scum?
NAV: Hello. Have you played mafia before?This is my first time.
NAV: What do you consider a scumtell? Why do you consider it so?Jumping on a bandwagon for no good reason. Because the scum would want to get rid of townies.
TheDarkStar Which is the better role for town: jailer or cop?
TDS: Is this the game you win as scum? How's it going in the scumchat?
TheDarkStar: Which side do you think will win? Why?
Pufferfish: How's it going in the scum chat? Also, if it was LyLo with you as town, someone who was not active much, and a slightly scummy active person, what would you do?If it was lylo? I think at that point, I'd have to go after the scummy person, because then at least you have something on them.
Mastahcheese: If you were scum in the situation above, what would you do?
CheeseMeister: Do you mind if I call you that? [1] What is the optimal jailkeeper strategy, in your opinion. [2] The optimal cop strategy?You already call me that even outside of play, I don't have an issue with it.
Mastahcheese: Prove you aren't scum.Well, I haven't killed anyone. There's that.
MastahCheese How do you intend to win this game?Through the elimination of the enemy via scumhunting. And voting, of course. And calling people out on BS. (Looking at you, 4mask)
4maskwolf: What is the most important scumtell to look for?I believe that the most important scumtell to look for is contradicting oneself. One or two minor ones can be ignored, but if they keep contradicting themself they are probably scum.
4maskwolfFirst of all, I would like to object to the characterization of my conspiracy theories as BS, they have served me quite well in the past.CheeseMeister: Do you mind if I call you that? [1] What is the optimal jailkeeper strategy, in your opinion. [2] The optimal cop strategy?You already call me that even outside of play, I don't have an issue with it.
[1] From my experience at being a jailkeep, I'd suppose just do the normal town job of scumhunting, and try to think about how the scum would go about things. Overall, in the last BM, I only actually thought about being a jailkeep during the night phase, and just proceeded as normal during the day. A very split mind.
[2] I can't really say on this one, as I haven't been one yet, but I guess it's be similar to being a jailer, only you have to go after people you think are scum, not going after people you think scum would go after. I don't think it'd be much different, really.
What are your thoughts on the matter?
...
And calling people out on BS. (Looking at you, 4mask)
Alright, scumbuscuit. Your scum buddy has discovered the identity of the cop, and you try to make off with his head in the night. When the new day comes around, he's still there, and someone starts selectively asking them a lot of questions. What do you do? And why?You either misspelled my phrase there or intentionally combined scumbucket and scumbiscuit. Which is it, MastahCheese?
Alright, scumbuscuit. Your scum buddy has discovered the identity of the cop, and you try to make off with his head in the night. When the new day comes around, he's still there, and someone starts selectively asking them a lot of questions. What do you do? And why?
...Alright, scumbuscuit. Your scum buddy has discovered the identity of the cop, and you try to make off with his head in the night. When the new day comes around, he's still there, and someone starts selectively asking them a lot of questions. What do you do? And why?
First, that tells me who the jailor probably is.
Second, I try to advise against claiming power roles (by spouting some 4maskwolf logic, probably). If there's a mislynch, that's good as long as it was the jailkeeper who led it and not me. If there's no mislynch, I kill the rolecop first (since he can know roles for sure). I kill the jailkeeper the next night, and hopefully it's at least LyLo by that point.
First, that tells me who the jailor probably is....
Second, I try to advise against claiming power roles (by spouting some 4maskwolf logic, probably). If there's a mislynch, that's good as long as it was the jailkeeper who led it and not me. If there's no mislynch, I kill the rolecop first (since he can know roles for sure). I kill the jailkeeper the next night, and hopefully it's at least LyLo by that point.
Second, I try to advise against claiming power roles (by spouting some 4maskwolf logic, probably). If there's a mislynch, that's good as long as it was the jailkeeper who led it and not me. If there's no mislynch, I kill the rolecop first (since he can know roles for sure). I kill the jailkeeper the next night, and hopefully it's at least LyLo by that point....
Second, I try to advise against claiming power roles (by spouting some 4maskwolf logic, probably)....
(by spouting some 4maskwolf logic, probably)...
Is my logic really that bad?
Meh. true enough.Is my logic really that bad?
I mean that I'd make up something that everyone will believe despite being a complete lie. If your arguments were bad, I wouldn't say that I'd us them.
Perses: Do you think that the semi-fixed nature of the setup encourages a specific playstyle?Not sure.
Tiruin: On a level of 1-10, how hard are going to try and get a scum win?Scum IC means that Tiruin only advises scum in the scumchat that the Mafia use. However, my guess is that she'll try pretty hard as having the scum is her job.
I'm glad to see you understand the idea of RVS (Random Vote Stage), however you should try to ask questions that either allow you to get a better understanding of a player or get a conversation going. Your question to TDs is good, but your question to Mastahcheese is not as good, because Matahcheese can't prove he isn't scum as its the very beginning of the game.NAV You're scum aren't you?What makes you think I'm scum?NAV: Hello. Have you played mafia before?This is my first time.NAV: What do you consider a scumtell? Why do you consider it so?Jumping on a bandwagon for no good reason. Because the scum would want to get rid of townies.
TheDarkStar: Which side do you think will win? Why?
Mastahcheese: Prove you aren't scum.
You may be surprised to know that scum tend to win most BM games as playing town and being successful is a lot harder than it looks. In addition, two ICs being scum has happened multiple times, so probability shouldn't be used to prove your point.TheDarkStar: Which side do you think will win? Why?
Probably town, since scum is hard to play. New scum players tend to act like scum acting like town rather than just seeming normal town. There are also two ICs, and the odds are very low that both are scum (1/81 chance).
Persus13: As opposed to NAV, you are not new. If you were scum, what would focus most on to seem town?Scumhunting and getting good reasons to lynch people who just happened to not be scum.
Meh. true enough.Is my logic really that bad?
I mean that I'd make up something that everyone will believe despite being a complete lie. If your arguments were bad, I wouldn't say that I'd us them.
And I get to join you in the boat of being not in the game anymore over in Smstr.
Also, why does everyone believe me on those things? I managed to get a pile-on vote on you last game with ridiculous logic.
I was trying to say biscuit, but hit "u" instead of "i" and didn't catch it.Alright, scumbuscuit. Your scum buddy has discovered the identity of the cop, and you try to make off with his head in the night. When the new day comes around, he's still there, and someone starts selectively asking them a lot of questions. What do you do? And why?You either misspelled my phrase there or intentionally combined scumbucket and scumbiscuit. Which is it, MastahCheese?
Persus13
There seems to be a string of random voting, with not even actual questions attached, but rather threats/demands. What are your thoughts on the matter?
Pufferfish: How's it going in the scum chat? Also, if it was LyLo with you as town, someone who was not active much, and a slightly scummy active person, what would you do?
Pufferfish: I will cook you FOR dinner, you scumbiscuit. What do you think of my vote on you?
pufferfish: Do you feel threatened when you're random voted?
Pufferfish What's your read on the meta of all the other players?
4Mask: Your vote is obviously an RVS pressure vote, but your question doesn't dig at much. Scum.I'm getting ganged up on in RVS ::)
If you were jailkeep and tomorrow would be LyLo, who out of this group would you jail, assuming no other information?
Wait, crap, just realized Tiruin is scum IC, not normal IC. Redirect my question from Tiruin to Persus.My reputation precedes me.
WhitiusOpus: Do you feel threatened when you're random voted?Meh. It all depends, really. If they just random vote me to get a response, I'm ok with it. But if they RV with no backing, kept it on, and then other people started to jump on without any evidence, that would make me very sad.
WhitiusOpus
You answered the questions from 4mask and NQT, but only followed up with a question on 4mask. Why not NQT?
More later. I think.Sorry, I was going to ask more people questions later (probably now), as I was rushed at the time.
Do you think Random Voting is a successful tactic, or a tradition that's had its uses?Hmm... I think both, really. It's useful in that it can make people slip, as they feel the pressure, but that can also make newbies appear to be scum. Probably more of the latter, but it still has it's uses.
NQT: What analytical techniques? I'm always scum, remember. I haven't had a chance to develop them :PYou're always scum, eh? Even here? Do you think your day game would be different playing as town?
Ahah! I note you don't deny that you're scum. I wasn't really sure before (how could I be, the game has just started?!) but now this is tantamount to admission. This coupled with your question to Cheese: how could a player possibly prove they're not scum?NAV You're scum aren't you?What makes you think I'm scum?
Jailor by far; he can both protect and block. Jailors make the town live longer in general. Also, they can add significant evidence as to whether someone is scummy or not.I think I'd be inclined to agree.
NQT: Is it more important to base scum/town reads off posts and votes or off power roles?If you've got an inspection result or you jailed someone and no one died then power role results should play a large part of a player's reads. However, most players don't have access to such roles and so must use every valid tool they can to hunt scum. Do you disagree?
Is there anything in particular you have in mind for victory? How much time to you plan to spend cross-checking your notes?I've got some tried and tested methods. I'll be keeping notes and checking them more as the game proceeds. Do you intend to keep any notes?
MyOwnWorstEnemy What's the most important thing you've learned recently in mafia?I've learned to not be afraid of attacking someone I think is scum.
MOWE: If your partner messed up as scum, would you bus them or just stay back and watch?I would actually do my best to save them at first, unless it would be drawing too much attention to me. If that doesn't work, I'd probably go about my way, attacking other players, since suddenly calling them scum would look bad on me.
MOWE: What are your qualifications for a definite vote on someone, rather than a random vote? As in, what makes you really sure someone is scum?I would have to be fairly sure they were scum. They would have had to have made several scum slips.
MOWE: What is the most important thing to you when choosing who to inspect?It would have to be someone I suspect of possibly being scum, but aren't sure. If something just seems off about the person, I'd just inspect them to be sure they're worth pursuing. If they're town, I can shift my focus onto others and have one less person to be worrying about.
MyOwnWorstEnemyIt depends on their conduct the day before. If they appear to have legitimate arguments, I'd count them more likely as town. If they had had a few slips, I'd think they were more likely scum.
There's only one scum left, and you are the jailkeeper. After jailing the person who lead the mislynch the day prior, nobody dies in the night. Would you consider them more likely to be the scum or the target? Why?
MOWE- What do you think should happen to lurkers in a game where replacements are unavailable?I think if they continue to lurk throughout the whole game and have been warned many times, they should be removed from the game. Having a lurker during critical times at the end isn't helpful for anyone and takes away from the game experience.
Whitius Are you satisfied with Wolf's response?Yes, I am. Unvote 4maskwolf.
TDS is very analytical, but doesn't post much.So if TDS was particularly unanalytical this game you'd be suspicious? What if he posted a lot more than usual?
How do you feel this game will go?Hopefully it'll conclude at the end of day 2 with a total victory for Town with no one killed in the night. What will actually happen is anyone's guess.
That's promising to hear. So you intend to definitely vote by the end of each game then? Obviously, RL takes precedence but do you intend to ask any active questions in the RVS?MyOwnWorstEnemy What's the most important thing you've learned recently in mafia?I've learned to not be afraid of attacking someone I think is scum.
Persus13 and NQT: As IC's, is it really hard to play both scum and give townie advice, without revealing your true colors? Or better, how far can we trust your advice, if you're giving it as scum, and therefore won't fall into such traps as likely.I don't think I've ever been both an IC and an active scum player so it's hard to say for certain, but I think I'd be able to separate my desire to win as scum and my desire to give good advice. Often while playing as scum I've said perfectly truthful things about how the voting pattern mark out my scum partners as scum, in the full knowledge that no one else would act on that knowledge. I'm interested in everyone getting better at this game, so you can always trust my advice.
WolfI dunno. You figure out if I'm scum. You really think I would tell you if I was? Well, I would assume my day game would be different, wouldn't you?NQT: What analytical techniques? I'm always scum, remember. I haven't had a chance to develop them :PYou're always scum, eh? Even here? Do you think your day game would be different playing as town?
4maskwolf: How do you tend to react to people sidelining you as "no way this person could be scum?" Keep in mind that you're scum, during this.I dunno. What do you mean by that? I'm not gonna argue that I am scum, if that's what you mean.
pufferfish: Let's say it's later in the game, it's LyLo, and one person continues to make mistakes. Subtle ones, but scumtells all the same. But, the other players seemed to have not picked up on them, and another player seems to be attempting to cover this other player's mistakes as best as possible. Do you think they're both scum? How would you try and convince the other players?
_________________________________________________
TheDarkStar: Same as what I asked pufferfish, but what would you do if they begin pointing out mistakes you may or may not have made, and opinion turns to you as scum?
_________________________________________________
TDS: No clue, but I bet it's fun! In LyLo with an inactive player? Since it's a 2v1, I'd lynch inactive. That's how my very first B<M went here; well, I didn't lynch but the two active players set aside their differences and lynched the inactive player. If you're inactive that late into the game, you have some srs issues.
Say you're cop. Town mislynched and tomorrow will be MyLo. What sort of personality would you investigate late game?
If he was still alive, TDS, because he shouldn't be alive that long :P
TheDarkStarJailor by far; he can both protect and block. Jailors make the town live longer in general. Also, they can add significant evidence as to whether someone is scummy or not.I think I'd be inclined to agree.
IC Advice: Questions can also be used to judge your fellow player's grasp of the subtleties of the game. You want to be sure your fellow town know what they're doing as the game proceeds.NQT: Is it more important to base scum/town reads off posts and votes or off power roles?If you've got an inspection result or you jailed someone and no one died then power role results should play a large part of a player's reads. However, most players don't have access to such roles and so must use every valid tool they can to hunt scum. Do you disagree?
MyOwnWorstEnemy: What would you do if you lead a myslynch, causing the game to LyLo, and the other players become suspicious, and begin hounding you? How would you defend yourself?I would go back and point out the reasons I had for voting the person and try to explain that I was actually convinced they were scum.
MOWEI very much so intend on using my vote. And I'm not one for asking random questions. I think the only time I've ever asked RVS questions was my first BM, in which all of the questions were completely and utterly useless. Since then, I've kinda dropped that idea and settle on commenting/asking specific questions about what someone has/hasn't done rather than asking the RVS questions myself. Any IC advice for me in that regard? Because I realize that that's something I should be doing, but I just don't know how to go about it.That's promising to hear. So you intend to definitely vote by the end of each game then? Obviously, RL takes precedence but do you intend to ask any active questions in the RVS?MyOwnWorstEnemy What's the most important thing you've learned recently in mafia?I've learned to not be afraid of attacking someone I think is scum.
CheeseI keep mental notes, but I don't record anything like you do.Is there anything in particular you have in mind for victory? How much time to you plan to spend cross-checking your notes?I've got some tried and tested methods. I'll be keeping notes and checking them more as the game proceeds. Do you intend to keep any notes?
MastahCheese: Alright, [1] "scumbiscuit", [2] how do you think the best way to apply pressure to someone is? [3] What's the distinction between knowing if you've cracked a newbie, or a scum?[1] Scumbuscuit.
4Mask: Your vote is obviously an RVS pressure vote, but your question doesn't dig at much. Scum.I'm getting ganged up on in RVS ::)
If you were jailkeep and tomorrow would be LyLo, who out of this group would you jail, assuming no other information?
If he was still alive, TDS, because he shouldn't be alive that long :P
Alright, I'll give you something to answer.4Mask: Your vote is obviously an RVS pressure vote, but your question doesn't dig at much. Scum.I'm getting ganged up on in RVS ::)
If you were jailkeep and tomorrow would be LyLo, who out of this group would you jail, assuming no other information?
If he was still alive, TDS, because he shouldn't be alive that long :P
Comment on the bolded part? You didn't defend yourself from this, but rather pointed out all the RVS votes on you.
Hmm.
Pufferfish
You took your RVS vote off of 4mask after he pointed out all the RVS votes on him, and after NQT asked if you were happy with his response, even though there was still more from your original post to him that could have been questioned.
Upon closer inspection, it seems you took your vote of off him once just a little bit of pressure was applied. Are you trying to stay on people's good sides?
Votecount Day 1
(1) Pufferfish - 4maskwolf
(0) TheDarkStar
(2) MastahCheese - NAV, WhitiusOpus
(0) MyOwnWorstEnemy - Persus13
(1) 4maskwolf - Pufferfish
(1) NAV - notquitethere
(1) WhitiusOpus - TheDarkStar
(0) Persus13
(0) notquitethere
Not Voting: mastahcheese, MyOwnWorstEnemy
0/3 to extend
0/5 to shorten
Day 1 will end Monday March 31st at 9 PM PST.
pufferfish: Let's say it's later in the game, it's LyLo, and one person continues to make mistakes. Subtle ones, but scumtells all the same. But, the other players seemed to have not picked up on them, and another player seems to be attempting to cover this other player's mistakes as best as possible. Do you think they're both scum? How would you try and convince the other players?
I dunno. You figure out if I'm scum. You really think I would tell you if I was? Well, I would assume my day game would be different, wouldn't you?So you're saying that if your day game is the same as I've seen it when you've been scum, then you're probably scum? Can I hold you to that?
Maybe I should have refined my question a bit more.Well we're not in a hurry here. Go ahead and refine your question.
Any IC advice for me in that regard? Because I realize that that's something I should be doing, but I just don't know how to go about it.
I keep mental notes, but I don't record anything like you do.Uh huh, and what's your track record on successfully lynching scum?
MOWETHIS IS A LIE.Any IC advice for me in that regard? Because I realize that that's something I should be doing, but I just don't know how to go about it.
Basically, the established Bay12 mafia sub-forum way of starting Day 1 is to ask hypothetical questions. I'm pretty sure scum are never caught this way, but it does start the day off with some content.
In others, they just make random accusations, and then start accusing one another of sheeping and bandwagoning. This can be a bit silly but it probably catches more scum in the long run.THIS ENFORCES PEOPLE NOT THINKING.
THAT IS A GOOD QUESTION. THE FOLLOW-UP MATTERS MORE.As can be seen, there are legitimate differences of opinion on the efficacy of different ways to start a game. The important thing to ask is: is this, even indirectly, helping me catch scum?Spoiler: Tiruin's View (click to show/hide)
Pufferfish
Did you answer my question about TheDarkStar (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=137322.msg5131343#msg5131343)?
PufferfishTDS is very analytical, but doesn't post much.So if TDS was particularly unanalytical this game you'd be suspicious? What if he posted a lot more than usual?
Oh very well, fishy mcfisherton. Out of this group, one of the IC's, probably Persus, because I find him harder to read than NQT.
CheeseI was part of the main players in the lynch of Makeinu in the first game I played, I pretty much caused the lynch on 4mask in the last BM.I keep mental notes, but I don't record anything like you do.Uh huh, and what's your track record on successfully lynching scum?
Hey, Persus, I just noticed you didn't answer my question.This is a BM, so I to some extent expected that, however, I do think that it needs improvement. My hope was that people would take the question I asked MOWE as an example for what they should do.Persus13
There seems to be a string of random voting, with not even actual questions attached, but rather threats/demands. What are your thoughts on the matter?
Persus:Define removed from the game. Remember that I said no replacements were available.MOWE- What do you think should happen to lurkers in a game where replacements are unavailable?I think if they continue to lurk throughout the whole game and have been warned many times, they should be removed from the game. Having a lurker during critical times at the end isn't helpful for anyone and takes away from the game experience.
Persus13 and NQT: As IC's, is it really hard to play both scum and give townie advice, without revealing your true colors? Or better, how far can we trust your advice, if you're giving it as scum, and therefore won't fall into such traps as likely.Well, I've never been scum and an IC player at the same time, so I wouldn't know. I've only been scum once, and I was in a position where I was one of the more experienced players. Then I said things I believed where true, and used them to attack other players and actually defend a few other ones. When we say stuff in italics, take that as 100% true. If it isn't in italics, it's either my opinion, or gameplay, so not necessarily true. We may le to you, if we're scum, but it won't or shouldn't be on how to play the game. Scum still need to win, and the best way to do that is appear town. the best way to appear town is to be as truthful as possible.
PersusI think it's important everyone gets grilled on D1. If people are trying to avoid the spotlight, you should definitely grill them, but you shouldn't worry so much if someone else is doing the grilling of another player and it is satisfactory to you.
Do you think it's important to grill everyone on day one?
Any IC advice for me in that regard? Because I realize that that's something I should be doing, but I just don't know how to go about it.Mind if I take this too? Figure out something that works for you that is participative in the beginning of the game. Being an active lurker is something you want to avoid as other people can't get a good read on you. One possibility you could do is ask questions about hypothetical situations to other players. If you're lucky you can get questions going. Another is to try and set traps.
Oh very well, fishy mcfisherton. Out of this group, one of the IC's, probably Persus, because I find him harder to read than NQT.What's this in response to, and should I take this as a complement?
You say you should have refined your question a bit more, but you neither redefine your question, nor attempt to follow up.I do not disagree. Maybe I should have refined my question a bit more.NQT: Is it more important to base scum/town reads off posts and votes or off power roles?If you've got an inspection result or you jailed someone and no one died then power role results should play a large part of a player's reads. However, most players don't have access to such roles and so must use every valid tool they can to hunt scum. Do you disagree?
I mean that, since you are obviously scum, how would you react to people disregarding you as scum, and acting as if you're confirmed townie?4maskwolf: How do you tend to react to people sidelining you as "no way this person could be scum?" Keep in mind that you're scum, during this.I dunno. What do you mean by that? I'm not gonna argue that I am scum, if that's what you mean.
WhitiusOpusI think the best way to pressure someone is pretty much what you said. Vote them, tunnel them relentlessly until it's almost detrimental to you, and counter everything they say until they get so frustrated they slip. On the second part, I'm not so sure. I guess you'd have to know that person well enough to know if they're a newbie or not.MastahCheese: Alright, [1] "scumbiscuit", [2] how do you think the best way to apply pressure to someone is? [3] What's the distinction between knowing if you've cracked a newbie, or a scum?[1] Scumbuscuit.
[2] Well, if my methods are anything to go by, tunnel them relentlessly, and refuse to believe a thing they say. That's usually how I go about it.
[3] That's something I'm still working on. Really, it's very subtle on the few times I have been able to tell one way or the other. If I find myself starting to run out of thing to really attack them with, then they're probably scum. But if new things start cropping up at the same speed that others are being answered, then I'm usually convinced they're scum.
What about you? How do you go about it? And also, how much of a difference does it make with a vote being applied, in your opinion?
Take that as you will.I'm expecting great thing from you. What do you think about Whitius' vote on you?
I think it's important everyone gets grilled on D1. If people are trying to avoid the spotlight, you should definitely grill them, but you shouldn't worry so much if someone else is doing the grilling of another player and it is satisfactory to you.Do you think NAV has been sufficiently grilled?
Which tells you more: Scummy play or a jail where there is no kill? Why?If I'm the jailer, the latter gives me more information: I know that either my target was scum or they were the scum's target. A lot of players can behave in ways we find scummy but later turn out to be inexperienced, or manipulated by superior scum players. If I'm not playing Jailer, then scummy play is what I'll mostly have to go on (including suspicious voting patterns).
I mean mod-killed. If they refuse to play the game or are unable and every other option has been tried and didn't work, they should be mod-killed.Persus:Define removed from the game. Remember that I said no replacements were available.MOWE- What do you think should happen to lurkers in a game where replacements are unavailable?I think if they continue to lurk throughout the whole game and have been warned many times, they should be removed from the game. Having a lurker during critical times at the end isn't helpful for anyone and takes away from the game experience.
MyOwnWorstEnemy, 4maskwolf, Persus13, notquitethereBut of course!
Would you all be kind enough to provide your reads?
mastahcheese: I am still not convinced of your innocence, scum! How angry would you be, on a scale from 1-10, if you got lynched D1 from lawlz RV? Would it be detrimental to your scum buddies?Fuggin' 11. Mostly from NAV, though, because he isn't even here. You'd think it'd be more thought out than
CheeseTake that as you will.I'm expecting great thing from you. What do you think about Whitius' vote on you?
extendBold you extends! >:(
NAV: If you were scum, what would focus most on to seem town? Also, why are you dodging NQT's question?1:If I was scum pretending to be town, I would post a lot and try to copy other people who I knew were town.
NAVI am extremely inexperienced and unskilled at this game. I realize that I am acting like scum and that a lot of people probably think I'm scum. But a townie accidentally acting like a scum takes much worse playing skill that a scum accidentally acting like a scum. And I am so bad at this that you should assume I am playing in the worst way possible.Mastahcheese: Prove you aren't scum.Well, I haven't killed anyone. There's that.
Although more seriously, the fact of the matter is I can't prove I'm not scum, the best I could do is convince you that I'm not scum, and seeing as how this is my first post of the game, I don't really have any evidence to back up a rebuttal to an accusation of scumminess, so really, I can't. At least not yet.
How about this, then. How would you go about proving (or rather convincing) that you are not scum?
NAVA player could not possibly prove they aren't scum. I admit that was a bad question.Ahah! I note you don't deny that you're scum. I wasn't really sure before (how could I be, the game has just started?!) but now this is tantamount to admission. This coupled with your question to Cheese: how could a player possibly prove they're not scum?NAV You're scum aren't you?What makes you think I'm scum?
NAV: You usually play games as ludicrously as possible. How do you feel with mafia being SRS BSNS?It is stressfull.
NAVI forgot I joined this.
You showed up to Randomly Vote me, and you haven't said a word since. You've been active on other parts of the forum. Explain.
NAVNow I am.
Are you still playing?
NAV: Only one post since day start, in which he voting mastahcheese for no apparent reason; leaning scumNo question here to answer.
Ok. You've satisfied mySane 4mask is in right now, so you're in luck. I wouldn't say I'm more serious as town or scum, but I have yet to finish a non beginner-flailing game as town, so how would I know? I'm not entirely sure what you want, precisely.hunger for bloodcuriosity, Herr Cheese. Unvote.
4maskwolf: Do sane maskwolf and insane maskwolf correspond to your alignment? Ie, are you more serious when townie, and less as scum, and vice versa?
4mask: Might you explain why you're flailing about so early in the game? I don't recall you being this wild in our other games together.I'm not flailing, I'm....
Okay... I am still being voted when I did replaced 4maskwolf, mod?Hmm, so you say that it's a "no-no" for a vote to sit on you for no reason, then vote me, providing no reason?
Duh. I don't really mind votes, but these sit on me, currently, for no reason. And that's a no-no. Ask me something.
MastahCheese, how different is modus operandi of doctor from M.O. of scum? In your opinion?
MyOwnWorstEnemy, 4maskwolf, Persus13, notquitethereThat goes for you too, NQT, this is the second time I've reminded you.
Would you all be kind enough to provide your reads?
Duh. I don't really mind votes, but these sit on me, currently, for no reason. And that's a no-no. Ask me something.Ok. My votes still on you, so here's a question -
I was going to ask you something similar, but WHitius seems to have it covered.Duh. I don't really mind votes, but these sit on me, currently, for no reason. And that's a no-no. Ask me something.Ok. My votes still on you, so here's a question -
How many mafia games have you played in? Do you think more experienced players have an advantage here in BM? Not only from experience, mind you, but also from the fact that many inexperienced players look up to more experienced ones, and are therefore less likely to press their case, or make accidental fallacies that the more experienced player could exploit. Whats your take on this?
Anyone not an IC: How do you plan on hunting ICs?The same way I hunt everyone else, stubborn tunneling.
Hmm, so you say that it's a "no-no" for a vote to sit on you for no reason, then vote me, providing no reason?Your vote had no reason, because it was pointed at 4mask. I am not 4mask. You might ask me something different.
Interesting.
If I were to vote you, would that make you upset? If someone else were to, how would you feel?
There was a question of mine for 4mask that he never answered.For now? Don't have anything serious. I still need to ask my own questions, to get my own impression on people. And I need sum time to reread topic properly.MyOwnWorstEnemy, 4maskwolf, Persus13, notquitethere
Would you all be kind enough to provide your reads?
Ok. My votes still on you, so here's a question -It's hard to say. I played here about 3 games, which all of them went horrible, more or less. While in my native language, I am pretty succesful MG, and a player to some excent. People tend to treat me like people treat Jim Groovester here.
How many mafia games have you played in? Do you think more experienced players have an advantage here in BM? Not only from experience, mind you, but also from the fact that many inexperienced players look up to more experienced ones, and are therefore less likely to press their case, or make accidental fallacies that the more experienced player could exploit. Whats your take on this?
Check again, I haven't voted. What makes you think I did?Hmm, so you say that it's a "no-no" for a vote to sit on you for no reason, then vote me, providing no reason?Your vote had no reason, because it was pointed at 4mask. I am not 4mask. You might ask me something different.
Interesting.
If I were to vote you, would that make you upset? If someone else were to, how would you feel?
NQT:If I was pretty sure I knew who the scum would pick to kill (such as someone that broke a tie that lynched scum), I'd jail the player that the scum would most likely kill. But if, by their behaviour or a cop claim or somesuch, I knew who a scum player was, I'd jail them.
Uh... assume you're the jailkeeper, what key factors play a part in who you choose to protect? Would you rather protect someone you view as a prominent town player or jail someone you believe is scum?
NQT: How well do you think your vote matrix will work in a Beginner's game?It'll still be useful, though most people on day one will have no real information and so their votes shouldn't be taken with too much weight. Do you think we should be lynching MOWE?
TDS: So you might possibly be scum, and have been scum in a previous game. Who would be in your ideal scum team, for this?Unvote
I agree. It doesn't seem quite fair to lynch a player who joined so late.Way to tie up the vote.Quote from: WhitiusOpusTDS: So you might possibly be scum, and have been scum in a previous game. Who would be in your ideal scum team, for this?Unvote
TheDarkStar: I would like you to be more engaged in the game. Please start being more active, and answer this question. I've bolded the more important piece.
I agree. It doesn't seem quite fair to lynch a player who joined so late.Quote from: WhitiusOpusTDS: So you might possibly be scum, and have been scum in a previous game. Who would be in your ideal scum team, for this?Unvote
TheDarkStar: I would like you to be more engaged in the game. Please start being more active, and answer this question. I've bolded the more important piece.
NAV, if there would be zero night phase, and if you could off someone - would you do it?Not at this point. the probability of offing town is much higher than of offing scum, and I have don't have strong reads on anyone. Later in the game, I would off people if I thought I was on the losing side.
NAV, it's near the end of the day. Would you like to see Mastahcheese lynched?He seems to be giving off a slightly scummy vibe to me. Because he is an outlier as the only one who hasn't voted, and he seemed to react negatively to being voted on. So yes.
Mastahcheese: If you had to vote someone who wasn't me, who would you vote for and why?Well, first off, I wouldn't want to vote you because I think it would suck to get lynched day 1 on your first game.
Well, I would like to say that it's the idea of being killed by a random vote that bothers me, it's the lack of thought put into it.NAV, it's near the end of the day. Would you like to see Mastahcheese lynched?He seems to be giving off a slightly scummy vibe to me. Because he is an outlier as the only one who hasn't voted, and he seemed to react negatively to being voted on. So yes.
DarkStar: Tell me a mafia-related joke please.Why did the scum push his partner onto the road?
Hey! You called for replacement, remember? That answer could have completely changed my read on TDS! Geez. [/false exasperation]DarkStar: Tell me a mafia-related joke please.Why did the scum push his partner onto the road?Spoiler (click to show/hide)
((yeah, I know, it was stupid))
WhitiusOpus: Do you think player activity is a good way to judge whether someone is scum or not? Is this different between beginner and advance games?Yes and no. In almost all mafia games, the highest poster is either a townie or third party. This is due to people wanting to find out scum, while the scum is usually responding and reacting. Except for a few cases, where the scum can false-lead the hunt, which is very unlikely. So generally speaking, the more active players are either really good scum, or town.
Still bit short of time, but I'll be sure to be about to break any ties at the end of the day.
Day ends in ~9 hours.
Uh oh... this didn't quite work out:Wolf replaced out, please direct all questions to PaniacStill bit short of time, but I'll be sure to be about to break any ties at the end of the day.
I should have calculated when exactly pacific time was rather than relying on ZU's hour counter:Day ends in ~9 hours.
As it was, the day finished at 5AM NQT-time.
OK, on the brightside, we didn't lynch town on D1, on the downside, we didn't lynch scum either.
Cheese, Wolf, Whitius: you were the last players to vote near the deadline: why didn't you break the tie?
New players may not be aware, but it's seen as very good practice to lynch when possible, unless players are absolutely certain that they're heading towards a mislynch. The only way of defeating scum is to use the lynch.
What made you decide to unvote, Pufferfish?
NAV, MOWE, Paniac, Persus what do you think about DarkStar being town?
Cheese, Wolf, Whitius: you were the last players to vote near the deadline: why didn't you break the tie?The reason I didn't break the tie is because the only way I could have done so is to have voted NAV, and I'd prefer to not lynch a player on their very first game. So for the sake of honor to newbies, I didn't break it.
TDS: Again, nothing really stands out; null read.
Reads: Currently, all my reads are null reads. I want to fix this soon, but doubt I will be until D2 unless things go down.
For now? Don't have anything serious. I still need to ask my own questions, to get my own impression on people. And I need sum time to reread topic properly.
TheDarkStar - Hasn't posted in ages, not really done much. Pretty usual for DarkStar. Null.
Gosh. I swear, all we do, is asking each other for reads, and saying we will do something about it. That's silly.You're saying this under the assumption that I'm here to win at all costs, as opposed to say, education of the game for those involved.
Your reason for not lynching NAV isn't good either, mastahcheese. Honor do not win games.
Cheese, Wolf, Whitius: you were the last players to vote near the deadline: why didn't you break the tie?I truthfully did not fully think through the implications of me changing my vote, and then not having the time to return and check what that would cause by making a tie. Honest mistake.
New players may not be aware, but it's seen as very good practice to lynch when possible, unless players are absolutely certain that they're heading towards a mislynch. The only way of defeating scum is to use the lynch.
Mastahcheese: Are you happy that I took my vote off you, giving you another day to live, and the time to kill in the night?Well, if I'm alive, I can still hunt scum, so in that sense, yes. But I'm curious, now, why ask how I feel about it?
...So I think I'll return the question to you, Opus.
Are you happy you took your vote off of me?
Well. I feel I screwed up big time, and that I probably look really scummy right now.
I'll accept any criticism, as it's probably just :/.
Now, we have nothing as to leads. Except me, of course. the regular screw up...
It puts suspicion on me for tying up the vote...You're making it pretty clear on your thoughts on the matter.
...but mad at myself for not changing it to NAV to help ensure a D1 lynch...
In summary, I'm on the line (leaning towards yes) as to keeping you alive, but mad at myself for not changing it to NAV to help ensure a D1 lynch. Then again, this was his first BM game.[Bolded part] This does not sound like a phrase town would use at all. Keep me alive?
Mastahcheese: Are you happy that I took my vote off you, giving you another day to live, and the time to kill in the night?[Italics] You're talking like you have control over this, like you decide who lives or dies here. You're talking from a scum perspective.
What do you think? Should I have left my vote on you, or forgo a D1 lynch? I don't think lynching someone on their first mafia game is a viable option.I don't think that lynching someone D1 on their first game is viable, either. From a point of information, you should have gone with the lynch on me, because there's no better time in the game to perform a lynch than D1, it has the least risk.
I should have calculated when exactly pacific time was rather than relying on ZU's hour counter:Whoops :(Day ends in ~9 hours.
I'm here! :D:I
I'm here. And I replaced out...I'm here! :D:I
Thank you, Tiru.
You know, you've pointed out that you're looking scummy, I think twice now? And keep saying that you feel bad, or messed up somehow. What it seems like you're doing, is calling to emotion, or whatever the term is.You're right maybe it is emotion. I think I overreacting due to me having checked the thread after night fell, and seeing that it was pretty much my fault that the vote tied. If I had not switched my vote, we would have had a D1 lynch, as opposed to a no-lynch. This pins suspicion to me, as pointed out by NQT voting me, which I think is justifiable. I assumed, while (probably over) thinking about this, that opinion would point towards me more.
Snipped to the parts I'm referring to.Quote from: WhitiusOpusWell. I feel I screwed up big time, and that I probably look really scummy right now.
I'll accept any criticism, as it's probably just :/.
Now, we have nothing as to leads. Except me, of course. the regular screw up...Quote from: WhitiusOpusIt puts suspicion on me for tying up the vote...You're making it pretty clear on your thoughts on the matter.
...but mad at myself for not changing it to NAV to help ensure a D1 lynch...
Also, this.How is it not a phrase a town would use? Maybe my wording is odd, or off, but what I'm trying to say is 'letting you live'. That's what I did, right? By switching my vote off of you, it allowed you to participate in the next day, and not be lynched. I'm not trying to 'keep you alive', that was a bad choice of words. I meant, 'allowing to to continue to breath'. But even then, that's not a great wording either, is it? That infers that I'm the one who decides your death. Maybe the best way to say this is "I'm on the line as to having switched my vote, and therefore leaving you alive, and us with a no lynch".Quote from: WhitiusOpusIn summary, I'm on the line (leaning towards yes) as to keeping you alive, but mad at myself for not changing it to NAV to help ensure a D1 lynch. Then again, this was his first BM game.[Bolded part] This does not sound like a phrase town would use at all. Keep me alive?
I don't "have control over this". I "had the ability to let you live or hang". I don't think it's a scum perspective, if that is what truly happened. I believe the above answers this. As well, it's interesting to note you completely glossed over the part about you killing in the night. Any reason for that?Quote from: WhitiusOpusMastahcheese: Are you happy that I took my vote off you, giving you another day to live, and the time to kill in the night?[Italics] You're talking like you have control over this, like you decide who lives or dies here. You're talking from a scum perspective.
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I think I'll answer your question now, Opus.Quote from: WhitiusOpusWhat do you think? Should I have left my vote on you, or forgo a D1 lynch? I don't think lynching someone on their first mafia game is a viable option.I don't think that lynching someone D1 on their first game is viable, either. From a point of information, you should have gone with the lynch on me, because there's no better time in the game to perform a lynch than D1, it has the least risk.
NAV, MOWE, Paniac, Persus what do you think about DarkStar being town?He was quiet, but someone earlier in the thread I think mentioned that he's quiet and analytical. I feel like avenging his death.
NAV, MOWE, Paniac, Persus what do you think about DarkStar being town?Well since I had a null read on him the entire game, I'm not terribly surprised that he flipped town. Just as I wouldn't have been terribly surprised if we'd lynched him and he flipped scum.
MyOwnWorstenemy: Who would you investigate as a cop? Why?I'd probably investigate Opus because I think he's quite scummy.
It's been your whole demeanor so far that I'm getting at, you're not acting like someone who's been trying to find evidence of scumminess, you've been acting like someone who trying to trip people up to accuse them of it.Quote from: mastahcheeseAlso, this.How is it not a phrase a town would use? Maybe my wording is odd, or off, but what I'm trying to say is 'letting you live'. That's what I did, right? By switching my vote off of you, it allowed you to participate in the next day, and not be lynched. I'm not trying to 'keep you alive', that was a bad choice of words. I meant, 'allowing to to continue to breath'. But even then, that's not a great wording either, is it? That infers that I'm the one who decides your death. Maybe the best way to say this is "I'm on the line as to having switched my vote, and therefore leaving you alive, and us with a no lynch".Quote from: WhitiusOpusIn summary, I'm on the line (leaning towards yes) as to keeping you alive, but mad at myself for not changing it to NAV to help ensure a D1 lynch. Then again, this was his first BM game.[Bolded part] This does not sound like a phrase town would use at all. Keep me alive?
MastahCheese: Alright, "scumbiscuit", how do you think the best way to apply pressure to someone is? What's the distinction between knowing if you've cracked a newbie, or a scum?This is your first question towards me, already calling me scum. Normally, this wouldn't be worth mentioning, except to point out that I was the
mastahcheese: I am still not convinced of your innocence, scum! How angry would you be, on a scale from 1-10, if you got lynched D1 from lawlz RV? Would it be detrimental to your scum buddies?You're asking questions that are already implying that I'm scum, I fail to see what you possibly gain from this, other than an attempt to trip someone up, for answering a question which is already giving itself its own answer.
Ok. You've satisfied myThis. After you failed to trip me up twice, you then shift targets away from me, but I don't see the same vigor in which you had applied towards me. You don't even follow up on your question, instead...hunger for bloodcuriosity, Herr Cheese. Unvote.
4maskwolf: Do sane maskwolf and insane maskwolf correspond to your alignment? Ie, are you more serious when townie, and less as scum, and vice versa?
I agree. It doesn't seem quite fair to lynch a player who joined so late.You then switch targets over to the lurker, who isn't here to defend himself, tying up the vote in the process.Quote from: WhitiusOpusTDS: So you might possibly be scum, and have been scum in a previous game. Who would be in your ideal scum team, for this?Unvote
TheDarkStar: I would like you to be more engaged in the game. Please start being more active, and answer this question. I've bolded the more important piece.
Mastahcheese: Are you happy that I took my vote off you, giving you another day to live, and the time to kill in the night?Now the night is over, the lurker is dead, and you once again resume your attempts to trip me up with a question that is, once again, already implying scumminess.
[Bolded part] This once again ties in with what I'm pointing out above. You're asking questions, well, with this, not even asking, just accusing, things that serve absolutely no purpose, except to draw a response from me, in the form of something to be used incriminatingly.Quote from: mastahcheeseI don't "have control over this". I "had the ability to let you live or hang". I don't think it's a scum perspective, if that is what truly happened. I believe the above answers this. As well, it's interesting to note you completely glossed over the part about you killing in the night. Any reason for that?Quote from: WhitiusOpusMastahcheese: Are you happy that I took my vote off you, giving you another day to live, and the time to kill in the night?[Italics] You're talking like you have control over this, like you decide who lives or dies here. You're talking from a scum perspective.
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I think I'll answer your question now, Opus.Quote from: WhitiusOpusWhat do you think? Should I have left my vote on you, or forgo a D1 lynch? I don't think lynching someone on their first mafia game is a viable option.I don't think that lynching someone D1 on their first game is viable, either. From a point of information, you should have gone with the lynch on me, because there's no better time in the game to perform a lynch than D1, it has the least risk.
[1] Basically, I see no reason for your vote on me, mastahcheese, other then OMGUSing. You're taking what I've said and twisting it to fit what you want. Yes, I may have over exaggerated my vote-change, but then again, not many people are here to give their perspectives. [2] Otherwise, you've taken some quotes out of context, and phrasing it as if I'm talking from a scum perspective when I'm just referring to what happened D1. I bet your scum buddy will be proud when you lead a myslynch today.[Bolded part] Do you still fail to see how this is being continued by you? I don't think I can make this more obvious.
[1] Please don't go easy on me just because it's my first game. Not Like I really need to say this any more, considering day 1 of my first Mafia is over.[1] Well, day 1 is over, and you need to actually be here to learn.
Mastahcheese: You were the last person to vote, even though you knew the vote wouldn't accomplish anything. Why then did you vote?
The general unvoting causing the day to end in draw is basically our only clue. BECAUSE: when someone dies, we check who did what with such person. But opposite is also true: when someone does not die, we should check who did what to get draw. But that might not be machinations of scum/scum team, but just error on town part. Hard to say, without thorough look.Sure, and now, looking back, what do you think the record tells us?
I'll have to inspect other stuff closer later.Do you think Whitius' rapid vote swapping was suspicious then?
Well since I had a null read on him the entire game, I'm not terribly surprised that he flipped town. Just as I wouldn't have been terribly surprised if we'd lynched him and he flipped scum.I see. And do you feel you're doing enough now to strengthen your reads on the surviving players: you say you find Opus super scummy yet there's only a finger of suspicion there. Why so reticent?
CheeseBack then? I didn't think too much of it, but now? Yeah, I find it suspicious, I've outlined my general thoughts in the post above yours.I'll have to inspect other stuff closer later.Do you think Whitius' rapid vote swapping was suspicious then?
Whitius, you convinced Cheese is scum?No, I'm not totally convinced. I think he is, or there's a suspicion he is, but I'm currently not articulate enough, nor have enough time to find flaws in his argument and piece it apart to the extent he is. I hope that playing mafia more will help with this, but currently the only real evidence I have his over-aggressive push back towards me pressuring him. I think he's overly defensive to the point of offensive, and that's all the lead I have.
MOWEI'm explaining how scummy his actions are, but I'm not voting him because if both were indeed beginner mistakes, I don't want to just lynch him. I was shown mercy when I screwed up big time in my first game (basically bandwagoning on the lynch D1 and lynching scum; someone accused me of bussing yet just dropped it a bit later). "You screw up, you die" seems a bit harsh.Well since I had a null read on him the entire game, I'm not terribly surprised that he flipped town. Just as I wouldn't have been terribly surprised if we'd lynched him and he flipped scum.I see. And do you feel you're doing enough now to strengthen your reads on the surviving players: you say you find Opus super scummy yet there's only a finger of suspicion there. Why so reticent?
MOWE: Slight scum lean, as he's jumping on the opportunity to get me lynched with mastahcheese, without much basis.If I wanted to "get you lynched", I'd vote you.
[1] Okay. I think I may have tunneled waaay too relentlessly on you. I have basically focused on you pretty much the entire game, but also because you've been one of the few active players. My approach to questioning could be refined (that's part of the reason I'm in a BM game), as right now I'm just accusing you of scum, without much (some, not much) basis to support this. [2] As well, I really don't have a response to this wall of text you've placed. Yes, I see that my whole approach has been to 'accuse of scum, see how they react', which will need work.[1] The whole point of tunneling is to be relentless, to see where people crack.
Gosh. I swear, all we do, is asking each other for reads, and saying we will do something about it. That's silly.This is the last thing you said.
Your reason for not lynching NAV isn't good either, mastahcheese. Honor do not win games.
NAVAvenge my own death :P I think you mean TheDarkStar.
It's about a day until the end of the day, if you want to avenge NAV's death, shouldn't you place a vote?
NAVNeed to vote people off or lose, and there are a few people who I am suspicious of.
What have you being making of the situations? Anything you've gleamed?
I'm explaining how scummy his actions are, but I'm not voting him because if both were indeed beginner mistakes, I don't want to just lynch him. I was shown mercy when I screwed up big time in my first game (basically bandwagoning on the lynch D1 and lynching scum; someone accused me of bussing yet just dropped it a bit later). "You screw up, you die" seems a bit harsh.Harsh, and counterproductive when these can be newbie mistakes, but ultimately we're nearing the end of the day and if we keep on mislynching then town will lose.
Whitius, if you have a scum read on one player and none on anyone else, then you should be voting that player (and probably also looking at other people as well).Ok then, I will reassign my vote back to Mastahcheese.
At this stage, given the paucity of information, we may learn the most from a Pufferfish lynch, as already three players seem in favour.
Everyone, are you pro or con a Puffer-lynch?
Everyone please please be more active 8)Will do, commander! :))
mastacheese, [1] do you think town is in trouble now that both power roles are killed, as well as having two AFK players?[1] Nah, bro, I think we're good. [/sarcasm]
[2] I'm going to finish reading over the past few days to bring up some examples, but I'm almost convinced you're scum. I don't have time to now, but I will tomorrow.
Everyone please please be more active 8)^This^
DAMN IT DON'T YOU KNOW THAT PUFFERFISH IS ALWAYS TOWN COP. THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT HAPPENED IN HIS LAST BM TOO, EXCEPT THAT I GOT TO BE THE SACRIFICAL LAMB.This makes it what, the third time he lurked as a cop? God dang.
...Tiruin, I love you, in a completely friendly and innocent way.Everyone please please be more active 8)Will do, commander! :))
MyOwnWorstEnemyKnowing what I knew then? You. If only because I'd hate to be the jackass that gets someone lynched on the first day of their first mafia game. I had no reads on either of you, but I'd hate to give the scum a free kill. And there's the off-chance that we'd end up lynching scum.
If you had shown up right before Day 1 ended, would you have switched your vote? If so, onto who, and why?
WhitiusOpusHmm, you point out that you're the first and only person I've singled out,, but then you go on and put my question towards 4maskwolf. And TDS. I switched votes in hopes to get players more active in the game, and hadn't realised how close to the end of the day we had come, making the vote final.It's been your whole demeanor so far that I'm getting at, you're not acting like someone who's been trying to find evidence of scumminess, you've been acting like someone who trying to trip people up to accuse them of it.Quote from: mastahcheeseAlso, this.How is it not a phrase a town would use? Maybe my wording is odd, or off, but what I'm trying to say is 'letting you live'. That's what I did, right? By switching my vote off of you, it allowed you to participate in the next day, and not be lynched. I'm not trying to 'keep you alive', that was a bad choice of words. I meant, 'allowing to to continue to breath'. But even then, that's not a great wording either, is it? That infers that I'm the one who decides your death. Maybe the best way to say this is "I'm on the line as to having switched my vote, and therefore leaving you alive, and us with a no lynch".Quote from: WhitiusOpusIn summary, I'm on the line (leaning towards yes) as to keeping you alive, but mad at myself for not changing it to NAV to help ensure a D1 lynch. Then again, this was his first BM game.[Bolded part] This does not sound like a phrase town would use at all. Keep me alive?
Here, I'll pull up some of the things I'm talking about.MastahCheese: Alright, "scumbiscuit", how do you think the best way to apply pressure to someone is? What's the distinction between knowing if you've cracked a newbie, or a scum?This is your first question towards me, already calling me scum. Normally, this wouldn't be worth mentioning, except to point out that I was thefirst person you singled out in this manner, and persisted on it. Looking back, the only one.
Of course it's implying you're scum! IT IS MEANT TO GUAGE YOUR REACTION. I feel like I've stated this before, but let me reiterate: It's how you deny that you're scum. Different people react to pressure in different ways, and you could become overly defensive or aggressive towards the questioner.mastahcheese: I am still not convinced of your innocence, scum! How angry would you be, on a scale from 1-10, if you got lynched D1 from lawlz RV? Would it be detrimental to your scum buddies?You're asking questions that are already implying that I'm scum, I fail to see what you possibly gain from this, other than an attempt to trip someone up, for answering a question which is already giving itself its own answer.
Of course I shift my question to a different player. I was satisfied by you're response! At that point, I was unsure as to anyone's alignment, really, so I was basically scumhunting - trying to make someone slip up. I hadn't applied much pressure to you by this point.Ok. You've satisfied myThis. After you failed to trip me up twice, you then shift targets away from me, but I don't see the same vigor in which you had applied towards me. You don't even follow up on your question, instead...hunger for bloodcuriosity, Herr Cheese. Unvote.
4maskwolf: Do sane maskwolf and insane maskwolf correspond to your alignment? Ie, are you more serious when townie, and less as scum, and vice versa?
Again. Hadn't realized how much time was left, just trying to make him more active.I agree. It doesn't seem quite fair to lynch a player who joined so late.You then switch targets over to the lurker, who isn't here to defend himself, tying up the vote in the process.Quote from: WhitiusOpusTDS: So you might possibly be scum, and have been scum in a previous game. Who would be in your ideal scum team, for this?Unvote
TheDarkStar: I would like you to be more engaged in the game. Please start being more active, and answer this question. I've bolded the more important piece.
That's the way I've been scumhunting, and probably is horribly ineffective. I'll work on it. I know implying that someone is scum constantly isn't the best way, but it works. At least in this case. You are overreactive to my posts, and sensitive to the implications of you being scum, to the point of having to point them out. You consistently accomplish very little of you're own scumhunting, while being very adept at deflecting questions aimed at yourself, and putting counter-arguments. So far, the only thing you've done is defend yourself.Mastahcheese: Are you happy that I took my vote off you, giving you another day to live, and the time to kill in the night?Now the night is over, the lurker is dead, and you once again resume your attempts to trip me up with a question that is, once again, already implying scumminess.
...And it's now that I realized that I've quoted the vast majority of what you've posted so far.
Everything you've been saying has been blatantly attempting to pin me as scum, before even letting me answer the question.
Ding ding ding! We have a winner! You've finally guessed that I was using that to get a reaction. In your case, an oversensitive reaction.[Bolded part] This once again ties in with what I'm pointing out above. You're asking questions, well, with this, not even asking, just accusing, things that serve absolutely no purpose, except to draw a response from me, in the form of something to be used incriminatingly.Quote from: mastahcheeseI answered this previously.Quote from: WhitiusOpusMastahcheese: Are you happy that I took my vote off you, giving you another day to live, and the time to kill in the night?[Italics] You're talking like you have control over this, like you decide who lives or dies here. You're talking from a scum perspective.
___________________________________________________________________________________Quote from: mastahcheeseI think I'll answer your question now, Opus.I don't "have control over this". I "had the ability to let you live or hang". I don't think it's a scum perspective, if that is what truly happened. I believe the above answers this. As well, it's interesting to note you completely glossed over the part about you killing in the night. Any reason for that?Quote from: WhitiusOpusWhat do you think? Should I have left my vote on you, or forgo a D1 lynch? I don't think lynching someone on their first mafia game is a viable option.I don't think that lynching someone D1 on their first game is viable, either. From a point of information, you should have gone with the lynch on me, because there's no better time in the game to perform a lynch than D1, it has the least risk.
You say that I kill in the night, how can I respond to this?
Obviously, there is only one answer, to say that I didn't, at which point you'd ask why I felt the need to point it out.
But you knew that already, didn't you?
The OMGUS accusation is definitely applicable. Once you've been voted, you immediately lashed back at me, and stopped trying to hunt other players. You became very, very, defensive. And I have provided evidence towards my votes, you just decided to ignore them, and I am not going to dig through the thread to find them. If others want them, they can find them. It's to difficult on my IPad to find quotes.[1] Basically, I see no reason for your vote on me, mastahcheese, other then OMGUSing. You're taking what I've said and twisting it to fit what you want. Yes, I may have over exaggerated my vote-change, but then again, not many people are here to give their perspectives. [2] Otherwise, you've taken some quotes out of context, and phrasing it as if I'm talking from a scum perspective when I'm just referring to what happened D1. I bet your scum buddy will be proud when you lead a myslynch today.[Bolded part] Do you still fail to see how this is being continued by you? I don't think I can make this more obvious.
There are two things I want to say to this.
[1] Your accusation of an OMGUS is amusing, seeing as how I'm actually proving evidence of my accusations on you, while you're just repeating "scum!" and leading the questions to innately agree with you. It almost makes me thing that the reason you voted me is just to call out "OMGUS" once I start to press you on the matter.
[2] Out of context? I've quoted you word for word. And please point out what it is that I'm supposedly taking out of context, since you're failing to provide context at all with this.
Here is your futile attempt to question others. You try to appear to be scumhunting, while it's merely a facade to appear active towards others. Puffer hasn't been active enough to get a read by me at all. How is his behavior scummy?[1] Please don't go easy on me just because it's my first game. Not Like I really need to say this any more, considering day 1 of my first Mafia is over.[1] Well, day 1 is over, and you need to actually be here to learn.
Mastahcheese: You were the last person to vote, even though you knew the vote wouldn't accomplish anything. Why then did you vote?
[2] I voted to hopefully get Pufferfish to respond, I still find his actions to have been very scummy, and I'm awaiting his response on the matter. I've already stated that I'm not going to D1 lynch a player on their first game. I'm not the only one who thinks this way, either.
Wrong, sir.WhitiusOpusHmm, you point out that you're the first and only person I've singled out,, but then you go on and put my question towards 4maskwolf. And TDS. I switched votes in hopes to get players more active in the game, and hadn't realised how close to the end of the day we had come, making the vote final.It's been your whole demeanor so far that I'm getting at, you're not acting like someone who's been trying to find evidence of scumminess, you've been acting like someone who trying to trip people up to accuse them of it.Quote from: mastahcheeseAlso, this.How is it not a phrase a town would use? Maybe my wording is odd, or off, but what I'm trying to say is 'letting you live'. That's what I did, right? By switching my vote off of you, it allowed you to participate in the next day, and not be lynched. I'm not trying to 'keep you alive', that was a bad choice of words. I meant, 'allowing to to continue to breath'. But even then, that's not a great wording either, is it? That infers that I'm the one who decides your death. Maybe the best way to say this is "I'm on the line as to having switched my vote, and therefore leaving you alive, and us with a no lynch".Quote from: WhitiusOpusIn summary, I'm on the line (leaning towards yes) as to keeping you alive, but mad at myself for not changing it to NAV to help ensure a D1 lynch. Then again, this was his first BM game.[Bolded part] This does not sound like a phrase town would use at all. Keep me alive?
Here, I'll pull up some of the things I'm talking about.MastahCheese: Alright, "scumbiscuit", how do you think the best way to apply pressure to someone is? What's the distinction between knowing if you've cracked a newbie, or a scum?This is your first question towards me, already calling me scum. Normally, this wouldn't be worth mentioning, except to point out that I was thefirst person you singled out in this manner, and persisted on it. Looking back, the only one.
[1] Wrong, I'm pointing out your repeated attempts at labeling, the fact that defending yourself against scum is something that scum can use against you in and of itself, in the act of defense, means that I'm going to make sure I'm thorough.Quote from: mastahcheeseThat's the way I've been scumhunting, and probably is horribly ineffective. I'll work on it. I know implying that someone is scum constantly isn't the best way, but it works. At least in this case. [1] You are overreactive to my posts, and sensitive to the implications of you being scum, to the point of having to point them out. You consistently accomplish very little of you're own scumhunting, while being very adept at deflecting questions aimed at yourself, and putting counter-arguments. [2] So far, the only thing you've done is defend yourself.Mastahcheese: Are you happy that I took my vote off you, giving you another day to live, and the time to kill in the night?Now the night is over, the lurker is dead, and you once again resume your attempts to trip me up with a question that is, once again, already implying scumminess.
...And it's now that I realized that I've quoted the vast majority of what you've posted so far.
Everything you've been saying has been blatantly attempting to pin me as scum, before even letting me answer the question.
[Bolded part] This once again ties in with what I'm pointing out above. You're asking questions, well, with this, not even asking, just accusing, things that serve absolutely no purpose, except to draw a response from me, in the form of something to be used incriminatingly.Quote from: mastahcheeseI think I'll answer your question now, Opus.I don't "have control over this". I "had the ability to let you live or hang". I don't think it's a scum perspective, if that is what truly happened. I believe the above answers this. As well, it's interesting to note you completely glossed over the part about you killing in the night. Any reason for that?Quote from: WhitiusOpusWhat do you think? Should I have left my vote on you, or forgo a D1 lynch? I don't think lynching someone on their first mafia game is a viable option.I don't think that lynching someone D1 on their first game is viable, either. From a point of information, you should have gone with the lynch on me, because there's no better time in the game to perform a lynch than D1, it has the least risk.
In case you've failed to notice my playstyle, I tunnel. I select one person who I'm suspicious of, and I single them out. The same way you've been doing to me, might I add.Quote from: mastahcheeseThe OMGUS accusation is definitely applicable. Once you've been voted, you immediately lashed back at me, and stopped trying to hunt other players. You became very, very, defensive. And I have provided evidence towards my votes, you just decided to ignore them, and I am not going to dig through the thread to find them. If others want them, they can find them. It's to difficult on my IPad to find quotes.[1] Basically, I see no reason for your vote on me, mastahcheese, other then OMGUSing. You're taking what I've said and twisting it to fit what you want. Yes, I may have over exaggerated my vote-change, but then again, not many people are here to give their perspectives. [2] Otherwise, you've taken some quotes out of context, and phrasing it as if I'm talking from a scum perspective when I'm just referring to what happened D1. I bet your scum buddy will be proud when you lead a myslynch today.[Bolded part] Do you still fail to see how this is being continued by you? I don't think I can make this more obvious.
There are two things I want to say to this.
[1] Your accusation of an OMGUS is amusing, seeing as how I'm actually proving evidence of my accusations on you, while you're just repeating "scum!" and leading the questions to innately agree with you. It almost makes me thing that the reason you voted me is just to call out "OMGUS" once I start to press you on the matter.
[2] Out of context? I've quoted you word for word. And please point out what it is that I'm supposedly taking out of context, since you're failing to provide context at all with this.
You have quoted me word for word, you've just taken those words out of the context they were provided in. Anyways, that was a minor point.
[1] Way to actually read. If you'd gone back and read my argument towards Pufferfish, like I invited people to go and do multiple times, I pointed out that he was not playing aggressively, and didn't actually form an attack on 4mask, until I pointed out a spot where he should have. I thought that his reluctance to engage himself was a scum-tell, not a cop-tell. I've made that mistake before, but now we don't have an surviving power roles.Quote from: mastahcheese[1] Here is your futile attempt to question others. You try to appear to be scumhunting, while it's merely a facade to appear active towards others. Puffer hasn't been active enough to get a read by me at all. How is his behavior scummy?[1] Please don't go easy on me just because it's my first game. Not Like I really need to say this any more, considering day 1 of my first Mafia is over.[1] Well, day 1 is over, and you need to actually be here to learn.
Mastahcheese: You were the last person to vote, even though you knew the vote wouldn't accomplish anything. Why then did you vote?
[2] I voted to hopefully get Pufferfish to respond, I still find his actions to have been very scummy, and I'm awaiting his response on the matter. I've already stated that I'm not going to D1 lynch a player on their first game. I'm not the only one who thinks this way, either.
[2] In summary, during this entire game you have not produced very little towards finding legitimate scum, and only defending yourself. Mainly I've been attacking you, which is probably a mistake on my part, but then again, it has produced an interesting reaction from you. [3] You base the fact that I'm scum by my questioning of you, but then you try and focus everyone else's attention on me, and becoming overtly aggressive towards me as well. [4] It detracts from finding the scum, which I believe to be your goal. (The detracting part, not the finding.)
BE MORE ACTIVE EVERYONE!*fills up Horse chat with neighs and occlusive banter*
*Yells at the players for allowing the game to go more than a day without a post and with no formal conclusion reached*BE MORE ACTIVE EVERYONE!*fills up Horse chat with neighs and occlusive banter*
Yes everyone please be more active.*nudges scumchat, deadchat and threadchat*
MOWE, briefly describe your case on WhitiusOpus. WHat of his actions are not Newbie mistakes.1. He was the one who tied the D1 vote at the last minute.
Persus:1 is a really easy mistake to make, and I don't have a problem with. Can you provide evidence for 3? (Like quotes)MOWE, briefly describe your case on WhitiusOpus. WHat of his actions are not Newbie mistakes.1. He was the one who tied the D1 vote at the last minute.
2. He asked a loaded question of mastahcheese claiming it was to "gauge his reaction," yet if mastahcheese had not pointed out the fact that it was a loaded question, Opus could have easily argued that mastah is scum regardless of his answer.
3. He accused me of jumping on the opportunity to lynch him when I hadn't voted him, but FoS'd him to let him know I was watching him.
And the second part... are you asking what if his actions aren't newbie mistakes or are you asking which of his actions I think aren't newbie mistakes?
Mastahcheese: Why are you attacking Whitius based on playstyle?Because it seems scummy to me. You may just view it as the way he plays, but I don't.
Can you provide evidence for 3? (Like quotes)Sure. Here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=137322.msg5160444#msg5160444) is where I voice my suspicion.Here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=137322.msg5162468#msg5162468) is where he gives his reads and mentions that I'm "jumping on the opportunity" to lynch him.
My question was how much of your case against WhitiusOpus can be attributed to newbie mistakes.All of it. But no one else has been giving scumtells that I've seen.
1. Fair enoughPersus:1 is a really easy mistake to make, and I don't have a problem with. Can you provide evidence for 3? (Like quotes)MOWE, briefly describe your case on WhitiusOpus. WHat of his actions are not Newbie mistakes.1. He was the one who tied the D1 vote at the last minute.
2. He asked a loaded question of mastahcheese claiming it was to "gauge his reaction," yet if mastahcheese had not pointed out the fact that it was a loaded question, Opus could have easily argued that mastah is scum regardless of his answer.
3. He accused me of jumping on the opportunity to lynch him when I hadn't voted him, but FoS'd him to let him know I was watching him.
And the second part... are you asking what if his actions aren't newbie mistakes or are you asking which of his actions I think aren't newbie mistakes?
2 is a hypothetical and a playstyle criticism. Disliking someone's playstyle should not be a scumtell. I dislike some people's playstyles on this forum, but that doesn't mean I find them scummy.
Extend I'm really sick and in no condition to post, but I really want to get in some discussion before the days over.I don't have the time to post a wall of text, nor the ability to put in quotes and such currently, and for a while, so I'm going to put this to you in one way - climb into my shoes for a moment, at least as much as you can. Read through mastahcheese's posts, focusing mainly how he responds to me. Then notice on how MOWE conveniently joins in later, basing his argument on MC's repost to me. Either you can tie the vote, or make sure I get lynched. Just make sure you're doing the right choice, as a mislynch here loses for the town.
Mastahcheese, MOWE: I'm currently trying to decide whose argument is more convincing, and I'm doing that by trying to find the flaws in people's arguments. Since Whitius has failed to provide much of case in response to me, your cases have bared the brunt of my criticism.
NQT SPEAKS THE TROOTH!I AM INTERJECTING TO YELL AT THE PLAYERS TO ACTUALLY PLAY AND NOT STALL THE GAME.
LIST-TEN TWO HEEM.
IN THAT THE BENEFIT IS IN HOW MUCH WORK YOU PUT IN.
TIRUIN, WHY ARE YOU BUDDYING ME?ARE YOU SAYING I REPLACE OUT OF A LOT OF GAMES, BECAUSE THIS IS THE FIRST ONE. ALSO, MANY WOULD DISPUTE YOU FOR THE TITLE OF GREATEST MAFIA PLAYER.
WOLF IF YOU WANT TO BECOME MY SUCCESSOR AS THE GREATEST MAFIA PLAYER ON THE FORUM, YOU NEED TO STOP REPLACING OUT SO MUCH.
ZOMBIE MAYBE CONSIDER RUNNING A SPRINT BM NEXT TIME.
TOWN WHITIUS IS UP FOR LYNCH. ASK YOURSELF: IS IT LIKELY HE IS SCUM? IF NOT THEN WHO? IF SO THEN WHY? THIS GAME IS STILL YOURS TO WIN.
From what I see your attacking WhitiusOpus for having a similar playstyle to yourself, tunneling. While he also was asking loaded questions, I've played plenty of games with people who have asked loaded trap questions, including Jim, who is generally considered very good at Mafia.Mastahcheese: Why are you attacking Whitius based on playstyle?Because it seems scummy to me. You may just view it as the way he plays, but I don't.
And since I have been attacking him, he's been showing pretty clear reluctance to respond to me, multiple times now, that doesn't seem very town-like to me.
At first, it seemed like he was trying to appear town by calling others scum, then it seemed like he was trying to create scummy vibes in people, rather than actually find them. And now, like I mentioned, he's not even wanting to respond when I call this out.Please provide evidence. And isn't calling others scum the goal of this game?
It's not just his playstyle, and the more I've pressed him, the more convinced I've gotten that he's scum.I'm sorry, but that doesn't exactly give me confidence. You see, if you keep tunneling people into the ground, you keep finding information that just adds to their scumminess. Sometimes you just need to step back and look at things from a different perspective.
On the No-Lynch:Well, right now the only lurker is Painiac himself since NAV got replaced. So unless scum kill him, the would be forced to kill an active player.
Yeah, like Persus said, that's really assuming a lurker would get lynched.
I actually did think of bringing up the idea of a No-Lynch in this situation, because it worked well in the first BM that I played, at the end of the game, but if we can lynch scum, then that would be far preferable, as it then gives us a lot more time to find the other one, then just having it down to the wire, like a No-Lynch would cause.
Persus: Do you have any insight on who might be the scum?No, but so far you and MOWE haven't yet convinced me that Opus is scum.
Good point, that is odd, but what would town Opus say instead?Can you provide evidence for 3? (Like quotes)Sure. Here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=137322.msg5160444#msg5160444) is where I voice my suspicion.Here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=137322.msg5162468#msg5162468) is where he gives his reads and mentions that I'm "jumping on the opportunity" to lynch him.
2. The action itself seems scummy to me. How is that disliking his playstyle? It's one of the few scummy things I've found.Do you know how many people on this forum ask loaded questions to get a rise out of people or accuse them of scum for not taking the bait? Several. Do I find it scummy? No. Because its their play style. The other problem is your attacking Opus for what might have happened. It didn't. You might have used this opportunity to attack me more than your little poke at me at the end of this post, but you didn't.
So why are you deciding to take up the defense for Opus and why are you twisting my words around? You keep comparing my thoughts to yours and using this to tell me I'm wrong.I'm defending Opus because its easier to gauge an argument my defending against it, and because what I've seen of your evidence isn't good enough in my eyes. I'd also like to point out that you and Mastahcheese have both been pursuing Opus for a while, and that no other clear two person team has appeared to have emerged. Please provide evidence of where I'm twisting your words around.
How many people have you questioned or talk to that's not me in the past two days for an extended length of time?My question was how much of your case against WhitiusOpus can be attributed to newbie mistakes.All of it. But no one else has been giving scumtells that I've seen.
Ok, I think that it's pretty clear that this whole argument is going to just boil down to me saying "I think he's scum because this reason" and you saying "I don't think that reason is scummy"From what I see your attacking WhitiusOpus for having a similar playstyle to yourself, tunneling. While he also was asking loaded questions, I've played plenty of games with people who have asked loaded trap questions, including Jim, who is generally considered very good at Mafia.Mastahcheese: Why are you attacking Whitius based on playstyle?Because it seems scummy to me. You may just view it as the way he plays, but I don't.
And since I have been attacking him, he's been showing pretty clear reluctance to respond to me, multiple times now, that doesn't seem very town-like to me.At first, it seemed like he was trying to appear town by calling others scum, then it seemed like he was trying to create scummy vibes in people, rather than actually find them. And now, like I mentioned, he's not even wanting to respond when I call this out.Please provide evidence. And isn't calling others scum the goal of this game?
I'm getting really sick of people telling me this, particularly as the person who told me this the most turned out to later be scum.It's not just his playstyle, and the more I've pressed him, the more convinced I've gotten that he's scum.I'm sorry, but that doesn't exactly give me confidence. You see, if you keep tunneling people into the ground, you keep finding information that just adds to their scumminess. Sometimes you just need to step back and look at things from a different perspective.
Here he lists his reasons as:Can you provide evidence for 3? (Like quotes)Sure. Here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=137322.msg5160444#msg5160444) is where I voice my suspicion.Here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=137322.msg5162468#msg5162468) is where he gives his reads and mentions that I'm "jumping on the opportunity" to lynch him.My question was how much of your case against WhitiusOpus can be attributed to newbie mistakes.All of it. But no one else has been giving scumtells that I've seen.1. Fair enoughPersus:1 is a really easy mistake to make, and I don't have a problem with. Can you provide evidence for 3? (Like quotes)MOWE, briefly describe your case on WhitiusOpus. WHat of his actions are not Newbie mistakes.1. He was the one who tied the D1 vote at the last minute.
2. He asked a loaded question of mastahcheese claiming it was to "gauge his reaction," yet if mastahcheese had not pointed out the fact that it was a loaded question, Opus could have easily argued that mastah is scum regardless of his answer.
3. He accused me of jumping on the opportunity to lynch him when I hadn't voted him, but FoS'd him to let him know I was watching him.
And the second part... are you asking what if his actions aren't newbie mistakes or are you asking which of his actions I think aren't newbie mistakes?
2 is a hypothetical and a playstyle criticism. Disliking someone's playstyle should not be a scumtell. I dislike some people's playstyles on this forum, but that doesn't mean I find them scummy.
2. The action itself seems scummy to me. How is that disliking his playstyle? It's one of the few scummy things I've found.
So why are you deciding to take up the defense for Opus and why are you twisting my words around? You keep comparing my thoughts to yours and using this to tell me I'm wrong.
Ok, I think that it's pretty clear that this whole argument is going to just boil down to me saying "I think he's scum because this reason" and you saying "I don't think that reason is scummy"Way to not answer the question. You realize if your wrong we've lost, right? Unless you'll win if you're wrong.
I didn't mention anything about hunting. Now you're twisting your words. You've seen people tell you to stop using your strategy who turned out to be scum. I've seen people use that strategy as scum to go for a lynch on a townie. I've seen giant town v. town fights erupt and waste time, because a guy thought a guy was scum, and then saw all sorts of things that confirmed their opinion because they automatically assumed from their initial judgment that that person was scum. Closemindedness has lost me Mafia games, so I tend to try and avoid it when I can.I'm getting really sick of people telling me this, particularly as the person who told me this the most turned out to later be scum.It's not just his playstyle, and the more I've pressed him, the more convinced I've gotten that he's scum.I'm sorry, but that doesn't exactly give me confidence. You see, if you keep tunneling people into the ground, you keep finding information that just adds to their scumminess. Sometimes you just need to step back and look at things from a different perspective.
I'm hunting, do not tell me that I need to stop hunting.
I don't just create more arguments to keep the tunneling going, I point things out as they come up, and if things stop coming up, then that's when I stop.Good. I've seen you play well with this playstyle (Makeinu's lynch, your first BM, for one), but there is a problem. We still have a fully-fledged scum team, but the only place where the votes stack is you and MOWE. That worries me. THat's what I want you to see. Unless your scum, that should bother you, too.
I feel like I should point out the unusual turn of events that Opus admits to not wanting to answer me, which is apparently also not scummy in your book, and then he backs off, to let you, a more experienced player, step in to defend him in his place.I've never said Opus wasn't scummy, just your full case against him wasn't convincing to me. And if I did have access to the scumchat, I'd advice scum Opus to join in, and give him a few points of his own to say. He obviously hasn't liked this experience and wants to quit, and in addition has limited time and I think that if he had support from a scumchat, things might be different.
When he flips as scum, you're going to have some questions to fucking answer.And if he flips as town, I'd have questions for you to answer, if the game wouldn't end first.
Me not answering the question is me realizing an argument that won't go anywhere, because it's already gone back and forth once, and ended exactly where it started. If you'd like to continue with that line, we can do that.Ok, I think that it's pretty clear that this whole argument is going to just boil down to me saying "I think he's scum because this reason" and you saying "I don't think that reason is scummy"Way to not answer the question. You realize if your wrong we've lost, right? Unless you'll win if you're wrong.
I didn't mention anything about hunting. Now you're twisting your words. You've seen people tell you to stop using your strategy who turned out to be scum. I've seen people use that strategy as scum to go for a lynch on a townie. I've seen giant town v. town fights erupt and waste time, because a guy thought a guy was scum, and then saw all sorts of things that confirmed their opinion because they automatically assumed from their initial judgment that that person was scum. Closemindedness has lost me Mafia games, so I tend to try and avoid it when I can.I'm getting really sick of people telling me this, particularly as the person who told me this the most turned out to later be scum.It's not just his playstyle, and the more I've pressed him, the more convinced I've gotten that he's scum.I'm sorry, but that doesn't exactly give me confidence. You see, if you keep tunneling people into the ground, you keep finding information that just adds to their scumminess. Sometimes you just need to step back and look at things from a different perspective.
I'm hunting, do not tell me that I need to stop hunting.
I don't just create more arguments to keep the tunneling going, I point things out as they come up, and if things stop coming up, then that's when I stop.Good. I've seen you play well with this playstyle (Makeinu's lynch, your first BM, for one), but there is a problem. We still have a fully-fledged scum team, but the only place where the votes stack is you and MOWE. That worries me. THat's what I want you to see. Unless your scum, that should bother you, too.
I feel like I should point out the unusual turn of events that Opus admits to not wanting to answer me, which is apparently also not scummy in your book, and then he backs off, to let you, a more experienced player, step in to defend him in his place.I've never said Opus wasn't scummy, just your full case against him wasn't convincing to me. And if I did have access to the scumchat, I'd advice scum Opus to join in, and give him a few points of his own to say. He obviously hasn't liked this experience and wants to quit, and in addition has limited time and I think that if he had support from a scumchat, things might be different.
HHHHHHHNNNNNNGGGGGGG-
MUSTRESISTURGETOPOSTGAMERELEVANTINFORMATION.
*Is dead*
*Is dead*I see what you did there. :P
I'll get back to you on that tomorrow when I have the time to reread things.
MOWE So who looks scummiest to you right now? Why?
Well what now? These horses are getting on my GODDAMN NERVES!!!Care to make any other observations? What's upsetting you the most right now? Do you have any idea on who the scum are? We're in Lylo right now.
pfpScrutinizing a scumteam who know they will be scrutinized is tough.
can't post much right now, sorry.
Persus Who do you think is the most likely to have benifitted from Opus's death?
First, you were just getting a bad vibe from him. Second, can I do anything but watching until someone questions me?Yes, you can, you can question others. Go back, find things that don't make sense in others posts, and reveal them to the general public. At the very least, turn up the heat on someone, see how they respond. Even if you can't find things to question people about, look at the general tone of their posts: do any of them seem defensive in the context they are in. Find something that bothers you and dig into it. You can also see who voted who, when, and with what reasoning: these can be extremely useful clues in discerning the scumteam.
Painiac4maskwolf So, are you happy with the results of us not lynching?
Hello, again, wolf. I shall repost my question to you, then.To be entirely honest: I'm neutral on it. It was MYLO, so a mislynch would have cost the town most chances of winning, but on the other hand a scum lynch would have bought the town more time. It's a tradeoff.Painiac4maskwolf So, are you happy with the results of us not lynching?
First, you were just getting a bad vibe from him. Second, can I do anything but watching until someone questions me?You can ask questions of others, comment on stuff other people have posted, or provide an alternative to my assertion that you are scum.
Everyone, please be more active. I may be wrong, and if I'm not, the scumteam can easily lynch me at the last minute....Explain this for me, I'm not quite getting this.
I think HissinhWalnuts is scum, but I want other people's opinions. I could be wrong and HissinhWalnuts could be town.Everyone, please be more active. I may be wrong, and if I'm not, the scumteam can easily lynch me at the last minute....Explain this for me, I'm not quite getting this.
MOWE So who looks scummiest to you right now? Why?I honestly don't know. Opus was the only one I found scummy and we got virtually no information when the scum killed him.
Hello? Anyone?Don't worry Persus. I am also playing this game! :D
Am I the only one who is actually playing this game?
Hello? Anyone?I'm here persus13. You seem to be pushing MIGHTY hard for people to rejoin the game. As in, too often. Often enough I suspect that you are a scum trying to seem confirmed scum.
Am I the only one who is actually playing this game?
Persus, why exactly do you think HissinhWalnuts is scum?
To me, the obvious kill candidates were HissinhWalnuts and Painiac. Painiac especially since his NL suggestion makes it seem unlikely that he was scum. However, since they didn't die, I feel that one of them must have been scum. Especially HissinhWalnuts, since I was getting a scummy vibe of NAV earlier in the game and he hasn't really been doing much except sit back and watch.
Looking back through the thread, I think NAV is the scummiest player because of how he tried to defend accusations of being scummy. He seemed to do it as if he was scum player instead of a town player.
Scum trying to be confirmed scum? What the? And I'm pushing mighty hard for people to join the game because one scum player voting me and tying the vote can win them the game. Like you just did. Thanks, now I'm pretty sure my theory about you and HissinhWalnuts being the scumteam is correct.Hello? Anyone?I'm here persus13. You seem to be pushing MIGHTY hard for people to rejoin the game. As in, too often. Often enough I suspect that you are a scum trying to seem confirmed scum.
Am I the only one who is actually playing this game?
Trololol mistype. I meant confirmed town.Persus, why exactly do you think HissinhWalnuts is scum?To me, the obvious kill candidates were HissinhWalnuts and Painiac. Painiac especially since his NL suggestion makes it seem unlikely that he was scum. However, since they didn't die, I feel that one of them must have been scum. Especially HissinhWalnuts, since I was getting a scummy vibe of NAV earlier in the game and he hasn't really been doing much except sit back and watch.Looking back through the thread, I think NAV is the scummiest player because of how he tried to defend accusations of being scummy. He seemed to do it as if he was scum player instead of a town player.
Also, instead of pushing his own case on who he thinks is scum or something town like that, he's just been using other people's arguments and one sentence lines to attack my argument instead of providing an alternative.
TALK PEOPLE! SERIOUSLY!
Am I the only town player here? The fact that I'm the only player hunting is a serious issue, and means scum can walk all over me.
PPE: Like they just did.Scum trying to be confirmed scum? What the? And I'm pushing mighty hard for people to join the game because one scum player voting me and tying the vote can win them the game. Like you just did. Thanks, now I'm pretty sure my theory about you and HissinhWalnuts being the scumteam is correct.Hello? Anyone?I'm here persus13. You seem to be pushing MIGHTY hard for people to rejoin the game. As in, too often. Often enough I suspect that you are a scum trying to seem confirmed scum.
Am I the only one who is actually playing this game?
4mask: Persus brings up a pretty good point. You pop up, pretty much solely to jump in and accuse Persus for trying to encourage people to be more active.No, I'd rather have an obvscum not get away with his silliness. I was going to review things, but we have until Monday. There was no hurry.
I can sort of see where you're coming from with that theory, but, would you rather just have us sit here and have nothing happen?
mastahcheese: HAVE I NOT BEEN POSTING IN THIS THREAD? ARE YOU BLIND? ARE YOU DSYLEXIC? DO I REALLY HAVE TO BLATHER LIKE A BLONDE TO COUNT AS ACTIVE?calm it, Walnuts.
mastahcheese: [1] HAVE I NOT BEEN POSTING IN THIS THREAD?[2] ARE YOU BLIND?[3] ARE YOU DSYLEXIC?[4] DO I REALLY HAVE TO BLATHER LIKE A BLONDE TO COUNT AS ACTIVE?[1] You have performed the act of posting, yes. Would you care to give your opinions on the subjects at hand?
Seriously, I have playing the whole time on here, don't think I'm not.He wants you to post your opinions.
Ninja'd.Seriously, I have playing the whole time on here, don't think I'm not.He wants you to post your opinions.
And cast a vote if you find anyone scummy.
Mastahcheese cancels snarky response: interrupted by ninja.Ninja'd.Seriously, I have playing the whole time on here, don't think I'm not.He wants you to post your opinions.
And cast a vote if you find anyone scummy.
mastahcheese: HAVE I NOT BEEN POSTING IN THIS THREAD? ARE YOU BLIND? ARE YOU DSYLEXIC? DO I REALLY HAVE TO BLATHER LIKE A BLONDE TO COUNT AS ACTIVE?H. Walnuts:
Hello? Anyone?Nope.
Am I the only one who is actually playing this game?
Even without the typo, how is that a valid argument? When people started attacking you for it, you just backed down quickly for my liking, 4mask.Hello? Anyone?I'm here persus13. You seem to be pushing MIGHTY hard for people to rejoin the game. As in, too often. Often enough I suspect that you are a scum trying to seem confirmed scum.
Am I the only one who is actually playing this game?
MOWE: What do you think of 4mask's accusation on Persus?Random and seemingly groundless.
Extend.Really? It makes sense from a scum perspective to be as active as possible, but most of his posts were just egging people on to play the game. Which is a form of active lurking: he could have tried to start a conversation.Hello? Anyone?Nope.
Am I the only one who is actually playing this game?Even without the typo, how is that a valid argument? When people started attacking you for it, you just backed down quickly for my liking, 4mask.Hello? Anyone?I'm here persus13. You seem to be pushing MIGHTY hard for people to rejoin the game. As in, too often. Often enough I suspect that you are a scum trying to seem confirmed scum.
Am I the only one who is actually playing this game?MOWE: What do you think of 4mask's accusation on Persus?Random and seemingly groundless.
HissinhWalnuts will be on standby for several hours...Could I ask why you're not taking initiative and asking questions and such yourself?
I essentially said I was going to sleep... also I'm not sure quite what to ask because anything I do seems to be responded with 'ERMAGERD YOR NOT PLAYING EVERN THOU YOU HAVE POSTED YOUR OPNIONS' just because I don't vote for someone doesn't mean I'm not doing things.Calm down Walnuts.
Alright, let's calm down.I would note that I also questioned Persus about his suspicions of Walnuts.
Since people are getting on each other for not being active, and there are counter arguments against those people for not giving something to be active about, or things like that, let's start a conversation.
How about we give our reads? I think it's been a fairly good while since we've done that, and it stimulates the thought process to analyze information, in any case.
Situation as I see it right now:
MyOwnWorstEnemy: Questioning and voting 4mask for backing off of Persus suspicions.
4maskwolf: Voted Persus, then backed off quickly. Now questioning HW on Persus suspicions.
HissinhWalnuts: Seems to think Persus is scum, isn't voting, though. Getting on Persus for not provide questions, doesn't seem to be providing any himself, though.
Persus13: Trying to get people to be more active, being yelled at by HW to provide something to answer. Thinks that HW and 4mask are scumteam. (as far as I can gather)
MOWE seems to be trying to hunt 4mask for backing off on Persus under slight pressure, doesn't seem to be doing anything outright contradictory, to me, though. She's been reading kinda null to me the whole game, I don't know. I'm saying slight town lean because I haven't had any alarms go off on her yet, and she at least seems to not be flip-flopping, and instead being rather consistent.
4maskwolf, you voted Persus, saying that he's trying too hard to look town. To me, I don't quite get that, since it would benefit scum most to keep conversation from happening, so they can just sit back, but I still kinda see where you're coming from. But again, you backed off pretty quickly, and didn't really push the issue much. Combine this with the fact that you're now getting on HW's case against Persus, and it's not really making much sense to me. Slight scum lean.
HissinhWalnuts, you seem to be acting kinda hypocritical. You keep saying that you're here and contributing, and getting angry about it, but you're not really providing anything to let us go off of, just demanding that we give you something to respond too. And like 4mask said, you're not voting someone that you suspect to be scum. Scum lean.
Persus, my opinion of you has shifted probably more than anyone else here. At first I wasn't sure, then I was pretty sure you were town, then I was pretty sure you were scum, and now, I'm not really sure of any of that anymore. You're trying to get people to participate, which is admirable, but in a kinda meta-sense, I'd almost expect you to be dead by now if you were town, because you're the most experienced player here, but I'll leave that out of my equation. The thing is, I've had a lot of contradicting bells go off in my head when I analyze the way you're playing, and I don't like that. You haven't been acting in a way that seems consistent to me. I'm not sure how to read you right now, and that bothers me a lot.
Right now, though, I'm going to vote HissinhWalnuts, because you seem to be acting the most hypocritical, and combine this with the rather shady way that NAV was acting before you replaced in, I think that you're one of the scum.
I would note that I also questioned Persus about his suspicions of Walnuts.I did mention it. Twice, actually.
4maskwolf: Voted Persus, then backed off quickly. Now questioning HW on Persus suspicions.
4maskwolf, you voted Persus, saying that he's trying too hard to look town. To me, I don't quite get that, since it would benefit scum most to keep conversation from happening, so they can just sit back, but I still kinda see where you're coming from. But again, you backed off pretty quickly, and didn't really push the issue much. Combine this with the fact that you're now getting on HW's case against Persus, and it's not really making much sense to me. Slight scum lean.
Oh great I'm being last minute scum voted, great job, great job. Vote off the new player great idea, try to get the guy who just joined kicked off, not dickish at all. Blaming someone else's actions on me. Not suspicious at all. Well then, if you want me to vote for someone I suspect as scum, ill just go with Persus for his lack of explanation.Ok, pleading to emotions is generally considered... not so good, but I'll leave that out.
wrong way around, Cheese. I also questioned PERSUS.I would note that I also questioned Persus about his suspicions of Walnuts.I did mention it. Twice, actually.4maskwolf: Voted Persus, then backed off quickly. Now questioning HW on Persus suspicions.
4maskwolf, you voted Persus, saying that he's trying too hard to look town. To me, I don't quite get that, since it would benefit scum most to keep conversation from happening, so they can just sit back, but I still kinda see where you're coming from. But again, you backed off pretty quickly, and didn't really push the issue much. Combine this with the fact that you're now getting on HW's case against Persus, and it's not really making much sense to me. Slight scum lean.Oh great I'm being last minute scum voted, great job, great job. Vote off the new player great idea, try to get the guy who just joined kicked off, not dickish at all. Blaming someone else's actions on me. Not suspicious at all. Well then, if you want me to vote for someone I suspect as scum, ill just go with Persus for his lack of explanation.Ok, pleading to emotions is generally considered... not so good, but I'll leave that out.
The "blaming someone else's actions on you" is me bringing up what the person that you replaced did. You have to take into account that you took his place, and with it, his responsibilities and actions. I'm not being mean, I'm being realistic. yeah, it's not really that fair to you, but it's not something that can just be ignored, either.
wrong way around, Cheese. I also questioned PERSUS.Oh, sorry, I misread that. Yeah, I forgot to mention that, sorry, I didn't notice.
Oh great I'm being last minute scum voted, great job, great job. Vote off the new player great idea, try to get the guy who just joined kicked off, not dickish at all. [...]....You should seriously get that viewpoint out of that noggin' of yours.
Really? It makes sense from a scum perspective to be as active as possible, but most of his posts were just egging people on to play the game. Which is a form of active lurking: he could have tried to start a conversation.Question: If no one's there, how can he start a conversation?
Would you rather I put my vote back on him, MOWE? Also, have you known me to back down from anything in mafia? You've played when I was scum, did I ever "back down" in that game, excluding the time I was trying to get in NQT's good graces by knocking off IG.
Very interesting. I wasn't backing down, I was testing his reaction. He reacted calmly, so I had no reason to keep my vote on him. That's all there was to it.Really? It makes sense from a scum perspective to be as active as possible, but most of his posts were just egging people on to play the game. Which is a form of active lurking: he could have tried to start a conversation.Question: If no one's there, how can he start a conversation?
Would you rather I put my vote back on him, MOWE? Also, have you known me to back down from anything in mafia? You've played when I was scum, did I ever "back down" in that game, excluding the time I was trying to get in NQT's good graces by knocking off IG.
No. I would not. I'm questioning you for voting him on a feeble case and then when others are calling you out on it, retracting your vote for some unknown reason.
I've never seen you back down, no. That's why I'm suspicious when that's what you seem to be doing this time.
Fair enough. I expect you to answer that question though.Very interesting. I wasn't backing down, I was testing his reaction. He reacted calmly, so I had no reason to keep my vote on him. That's all there was to it.Really? It makes sense from a scum perspective to be as active as possible, but most of his posts were just egging people on to play the game. Which is a form of active lurking: he could have tried to start a conversation.Question: If no one's there, how can he start a conversation?
Would you rather I put my vote back on him, MOWE? Also, have you known me to back down from anything in mafia? You've played when I was scum, did I ever "back down" in that game, excluding the time I was trying to get in NQT's good graces by knocking off IG.
No. I would not. I'm questioning you for voting him on a feeble case and then when others are calling you out on it, retracting your vote for some unknown reason.
I've never seen you back down, no. That's why I'm suspicious when that's what you seem to be doing this time.
Really? It makes sense from a scum perspective to be as active as possible, but most of his posts were just egging people on to play the game. Which is a form of active lurking: he could have tried to start a conversation.So my answering other people's questions and laying out a case on why I thought HissinhWalnuts was scum wasn't trying to start a conversation. If at that point in time, people were actually involved in this game, people should have been formulating cases of their own, which could have started discussion. I laid out my case for everyone, which was inviting people to critique my reasons and arguments, and its worked for the most part in starting a dialogue. In fact, the majority of content today has been because of my case. I was the only voter. How is that active lurking?
Also, Persus, have you reiterated your reasoning that me and Walnuts are scum?
Persus, why exactly do you think HissinhWalnuts is scum?To me, the obvious kill candidates were HissinhWalnuts and Painiac. Painiac especially since his NL suggestion makes it seem unlikely that he was scum. However, since they didn't die, I feel that one of them must have been scum. Especially HissinhWalnuts, since I was getting a scummy vibe of NAV earlier in the game and he hasn't really been doing much except sit back and watch.Looking back through the thread, I think NAV is the scummiest player because of how he tried to defend accusations of being scummy. He seemed to do it as if he was scum player instead of a town player.
Also, instead of pushing his own case on who he thinks is scum or something town like that, he's just been using other people's arguments and one sentence lines to attack my argument instead of providing an alternative.
Oh great I'm being last minute scum voted, great job, great job. Vote off the new player great idea, try to get the guy who just joined kicked off, not dickish at all. Blaming someone else's actions on me. Not suspicious at all. Well then, if you want me to vote for someone I suspect as scum, ill just go with Persus for his lack of explanation.I've explained my case twice, and just did again to 4maskwolf.
Also I must question, what exactly made you suspect the person before me?And you'll find that in my explanation.
Because you haven't given any solid evidence "I was getting a scummy vibe of NAV earlier in the game" Isn't really lynch vote territory.Did you not read the bit in there about that I had a scummy vibe off NAV because how he reacted to accusations of himself being scummy in a non-town like way?
How where they un town like?
NAVAhah! I note you don't deny that you're scum. I wasn't really sure before (how could I be, the game has just started?!) but now this is tantamount to admission. This coupled with your question to Cheese: how could a player possibly prove they're not scum?NAV You're scum aren't you?What makes you think I'm scum?
I figured MOWE was scum, because she did exactly what Imp did in our first game together: she accused without voting, hoping others would hop on the accusation parade....when did I do this?
I'm so surprised I lasted the entire game. This was my first time as scum.Your entire attack on me. While founded in fact, you never bothered to cast your vote on me. At least, that's what it looked like from my perspective.I figured MOWE was scum, because she did exactly what Imp did in our first game together: she accused without voting, hoping others would hop on the accusation parade....when did I do this?
I did vote you. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=137322.msg5218740#msg5218740) It never ended up in the votecount aparently.
I didn't actually try to hide it. I didn't know stealth votes were a thing.No no, I meant stealth vote as in I didn't see it. I guess because it wasn't bold?
Ah. I see. I suppose I should start bolding my votes and avoid this in the future. Was that the only thing you found scummy about me?I didn't actually try to hide it. I didn't know stealth votes were a thing.No no, I meant stealth vote as in I didn't see it. I guess because it wasn't bold?
No. I just got this sense that you were scummy, I'd have to look back and figure out what caused it.Ah. I see. I suppose I should start bolding my votes and avoid this in the future. Was that the only thing you found scummy about me?I didn't actually try to hide it. I didn't know stealth votes were a thing.No no, I meant stealth vote as in I didn't see it. I guess because it wasn't bold?
I think this mostly happened because nobody gave a fuck. Too much inactivity.Correction: Nobody in town in the recent day. :P
But seriously Mastahcheese, your playstyle is much better suited to scum than town.But I enjoy being town more! D:
I now have a cat.But seriously Mastahcheese, your playstyle is much better suited to scum than town.But I enjoy being town more! D:
EDIT:
Also I love how the last message of scumchat is me offering Tiruin a cat. :P
Cheese is a cat.I now have a cat.But seriously Mastahcheese, your playstyle is much better suited to scum than town.But I enjoy being town more! D:
EDIT:
Also I love how the last message of scumchat is me offering Tiruin a cat. :P
\o/
I can't figure out if that's what she was trying to infer or not.Cheese is a cat.I now have a cat.But seriously Mastahcheese, your playstyle is much better suited to scum than town.But I enjoy being town more! D:
EDIT:
Also I love how the last message of scumchat is me offering Tiruin a cat. :P
\o/
Cats are good.I can't figure out if that's what she was trying to infer or not.Cheese is a cat.I now have a cat.But seriously Mastahcheese, your playstyle is much better suited to scum than town.But I enjoy being town more! D:
EDIT:
Also I love how the last message of scumchat is me offering Tiruin a cat. :P
\o/
Unless she actually went and got a real life cat.
I'm so confused.
Cats are good.I have two cats and an irrational fear of dogs.
I like dogs more though.
A lot of people fear dogs.Cats are good.I have two cats and an irrational fear of dogs.
I like dogs more though.
I fucking KNEW IT. GODDAMNIT CHEESE. GODDAMNIT.Sorry, bro.