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Finally... => Forum Games and Roleplaying => Mafia => Topic started by: Silthuri on May 15, 2014, 11:59:43 pm

Title: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - GAME OVER! SCUM WIN!
Post by: Silthuri on May 15, 2014, 11:59:43 pm

Beginner's Mafia XLVII
Vampire Coven

A coven of vampires has lived peacefully with a nearby village of humans for centuries. They agreed to protect the town from any and all threats in return for just enough blood for them to survive. Over the years, many battles had been fought in the area, but no harm came to the villagers. The vampires lived up to their promise.

Eventually, a traveler unknowingly told a vampire hunter of this incredible tale and he brought word back to his employers. Appalled by the vampire’s control over the village, he sent his best infiltrator to turn two of the vampires against their comrades with promises of power and a permanent haven from other hunters.

The traitors were instructed to kill their old friends, but they knew they could not possibly win in honorable combat. So they took to plotting in the shadows, waiting for the chance to put their plan into action and seek their eternal reward.

How does this tale end? That’s for you to decide.

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Player List [7/7]:

• darkpaladin109 LARD
• borno - Vanilla Townie lynched D1
• fniff TheDarkStar 4maskwolf
• Scripten Deathsword
• tn5421 - Vanilla Townie killed N1
• RangerCado
• Kansa PTDfun - Vanilla Townie lynched D2

ICs [2/2]:

• Jack A T - Vanilla Townie killed N2
• Tiruin

Scum IC [1/1]:

• Persus13

Replacements:

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Introduction

Welcome to Beginner's Mafia XLVII. As the title suggests, this game is for beginners. If you have no idea how to play or you have some experience but you're still not quite sure what to do, then this is the right place for you. If you sign up, you have one goal: Learn how to play the game of mafia. Since this is not an easy thing to do on your own and we wouldn't dream of forcing you to do it, you will be assisted by two 'inexperience challenged' players, or ICs. The ICs are experienced players on the board who have signed up to help you learn. You can always trust that the advice they give is genuine, however, you cannot always trust the IC, as they are players in the game and have the same likelihood of being scum as every other single player.

If this is your first time playing, keep in mind that games of forum mafia take several weeks, and can sometimes run longer than a month, and that you are expected to be able to play continuously through that time. If you can't anticipate being able to play for that long for whatever reason, then maybe the game of mafia isn't for you. But if it is, then welcome to the mafia subforum, and I hope you have a great time playing.

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Gameplay and Concept

The game of mafia has a simple concept. A large group of players known as the town plays against a smaller group of players known as the mafia. In this setup, there are nine players, with seven town and two mafia.

Before the game begins, each players is given a role and an alignment by the moderator. There are two alignments in this setup: Town and Mafia. The town outnumber the mafia, but each individual member of the town does not know the alignment of any of the other members. The mafia know the alignment of everyone on their team and they can discuss the game privately in a special mafia chat. The mafia has access to a nightkill that they may use in the Night phase, while the town occasionally has roles with abilities that are used during the night.

Once everyone has a role, the game begins in the Day phase. During the Day phase, players may discuss the game and each player has a vote that they cast publicly to lynch a player. At the end of the day after some predetermined amount of time, the player with the most votes is lynched. Lynching does two things: it reveals a player's role and alignment, and it removes a player from the game. Once lynched, a player is no longer allowed to post in the thread.

Once the day ends, the game proceeds to Night. During the Night, discussion is prohibited. The mafia team picks a target to nightkill. If available, any town power roles use their actions as well. At the end of the night, the target the mafia chose to nightkill has their role and alignment revealed, and that player is removed from the game in a similar way to being lynched. Once the night ends, the game proceeds to another Day.

Both teams win by eliminating the other. However, due to the nature of the teams, they win very differently. The town win by finding and lynching the mafia, while the mafia win by avoiding being lynched and nightkilling.

Potential Roles

Vanilla Townie - A member of the town with no special abilities.
Vanilla Mafioso - A member of the mafia with no special abilities.
Cop (Town) - A cop may choose to inspect a single player during the night and learn that player's alignment.
Jailkeeper (Town) - A combination of a Roleblocker and a Doctor, a Jailkeeper both protects and blocks the target from acting during the night.
Role Cop (Mafia) - Much like the Town Cop counterpart, the Role Cop investigates a single other during the night to learn their role, instead of their alignment.

This is still an experimental setup (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=126082.msg4252536#msg4252536)

The only role that receives the success of their results in this setup is the Cop and Rolecop. All other roles are not informed if they were successful or not.

One of the following setups is used:
1. 1 Mafioso, 1 Mafia Role Cop, 5 Vanilla Townies, Sane Cop, Jailkeeper.
2. 1 Mafioso, 1 Mafia Role Cop, 6 Vanilla Townies, Sane Cop.
3. 1 Mafioso, 1 Mafia Role Cop, 6 Vanilla Townies, Jailkeeper.

Spoiler: Possible Role PMs (click to show/hide)

Quote from: 'Vanilla' Town

You are a vampire welcomed in the coven many, many centuries ago. You are valued for your skill in magic and your loyalty to your leader.

You are town.

Wincondition: You win when all of the mafia are eliminated.

Quote from: 'Cop' Town

You are a vampire welcomed into the coven many, many centuries ago. When you underwent the Embrace into vampirism, you gained ability to know the true intent of those around you.

You are town. Each night, you can inspect a fellow player in order to see their alignment.

Wincondition: You win when all of the mafia have been eliminated.

Quote from: 'Jailkeeper' Town

You are a vampire welcomed into the coven many, many centuries ago. For many of those centuries, you were the trusty dungeon keeper and you alone hold the keys to the cells far below the surface of your coven’s castle.

You are town. Each night, you can guard another player to prevent them from acting or being acted upon.

Wincondition: You win when all of the mafia are eliminated.

Quote from: Vanilla Mafioso

You are a vampire welcomed into the clan many, many centuries ago. You have always felt safe with them, but when you were approached by a vampire hunter with a proposition, you just couldn’t refuse. You now work for the hunters.

You are mafia. You have access to the shared night kill of your faction. You may plot with your partner [In a secret topic on quicktopic.com that will be visible only to you and your partner].

Wincondition: You win when the town faction has equal or less players than your faction.

Quote from: 'Role Cop' Mafia

You are a vampire, welcomed into the clan many, many centuries ago. When you underwent the Embrace into vampirism, you gained the ability to notice subtleties in people actions. You’ve always loved your coven. At least until a hunter made an offer you couldn’t refuse. You now work for the hunters.

You are mafia. You have access to the shared night kill of your faction. You have the ability to inspect others in order to discover their role. You may plot with your partner [In a secret topic on quicktopic.com that will be visible only to you and your partner].

Wincondition: You win when the town faction has equal or less players than your faction.

Notes about the ICs

The ICs are here solely to teach new players how to play, but remember, they are also players in the game. This means they have the same chance to be scum as any other player and it is entirely possible for one IC or even both ICs to be scum. Regardless of their alignment, they are obligated to provide you with genuine advice, so that even if you don't trust the IC, you can trust the advice they give. Some ICs will use a special 'IC voice' to alert players that they are delivering honest, unfiltered advice, while some don't.

The ICs have the special privilege of being able to talk while dead. This is so that they can continue to give advice even if they are killed during the course of the game.

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Rules

• Voting - Votes are cast in red and should include the name of the targeted player. Other colors may be ignored. MyOwnWorstEnemy, MOWE, and MOWE you scummy scum!, are all acceptable ways to cast a vote if the target is clear enough.
  
  • If you want to remove your vote, you may put unvote in red text. You must explicitly state this to remove your vote. You may put the name of the player you are unvoting in red after the unvote, e.g., unvote MyOwnWorstEnemy, but it is not required.
  • If the day ends with two or more people having the same number of votes, the day will end with no player being lynched.
  • It is also possible to vote for a no lynch to explicitly end the day without a lynch.
• Death - When you are dead, you are prohibited from posting in the thread. You may make a single 'bah' post after you die, however, it must not contain any game-related information.
• PMs - PMs between players are prohibited. You may freely PM the moderator to ask game-related questions, however, what the moderator may reveal is limited.
  
  • Do not quote any direct correspondence with the moderator, including role PMs and rule-related queries.
• Edits - Editing posts is prohibited. Do not edit your post for any reason, even if your post comes out as a train-wreck of formatting, spelling, punctuation, and/or grammar. The preview button exists; use it.
• Replacements/Activity - If you find yourself unable to play, you may, and should, request a replacement. We may try to talk you out of it if it's for any other reason besides you not having enough time to play.
  
  • Prods may be requested for a player. If they have not posted in the thread within 24 hours, excluding weekends, they will be prodded.
  • If you stop playing altogether without notifying me, you will receive a warning after 48 hours, and a forced replace after 72 hours.
  • Please be active. The greatest killer of beginner games is poor activity.
• Day/Night Length - Days will last 72 hours. Nights will last 24 hours, or until all night actions are received. Weekends are not counted in terms of day or night length. E.G., if a night starts at 12:00 PM Friday, it will end at 12:00 PM Monday.
  
  • If the game is in a LYLO or MYLO situation, there will be no formal deadline. >50% Players must vote to end the day, or votes must not change for 24-hours.
• Extensions/Shortens - A player may vote for an extension to increase the length of the day. It requires >33% of the current number of players to request an extension for an extension to be granted. A player may also vote for a shorten. It requires >50% of the current number of players for a shorten to be granted. Extensions increase day length by 48 hours, while shortens will immediately end the day as soon as possible. There are only two extensions per day, with other extensions being granted at the moderator's discretion for special reasons.
  • Votes for extension/shorten are done in boldface. Extend, Extension, Extend it up yo, Shorten it out y'all are acceptable ways to vote for an extension or shorten
  • Extensions or shortens can be opposed. Opposition to extensions or shortens are done in boldface. Oppose Extend, Opposition to the Extension, Oppose Shorten, are acceptable ways to oppose an extension or shorten. Oppositions count against the total number of votes for an extension or shorten.
  • Extensions count as opposition to hortens. Similarly, shortens count as opposition to extensions.
  • Extensions, Shortens, and Oppositions will be counted and processed by the moderator in the order that they are cast.
• External Participation - While the game is ongoing, if you are not a player, an IC, or a mod, refrain from posting in the thread.
  • Play to win! There is no hopeless situation, so don't ever give up. And remember, be bold! You learn nothing and you gain nothing by holding back.
• Miscellaneous - Use of cryptographic hashing is not permitted.  If you want to have hidden/obfuscated messages in your posts for later use, come up with them using your own wetware.

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Resources and Guides

Our own Bay12 Mafia tutorial (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=39338.0)
The Mafiascum wiki. Lots of theory, terminology, and game analysis. (http://mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?title=Main_Page)
An Interactive Flash tutorial by one of the Mafiascum.net people. Helpful visualization! (http://cataldo.freeshell.org/mafia/mafiascum04.swf)
The Notable Games archive. Read a famous game from start to finish! Learn some Mafia history. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=64229.0)

Spoiler: On D1 No-lynches (click to show/hide)

Quote from: Bookthras

I'm not an IC, but I once wrote a rant about nolynches on Day One that I think would be beneficial for this audience, so I quote it below. In brief, you can (i.e., it's a valid vote, and if it has majority no lynch will happen) but you shouldn't unless you have a very very good reason. Actual ICs will, of course, chime in with their own thoughts, and there are different considerations to be had in subsequent days; the below applies only for D1.

Quote from: Bookthras on May 08, 2012, 09:31:27 pm

Even in a game like this, or a role-heavy game like a BYOR, paranormal, or bastard, without a D1 lynch people will lack context for the conversation during the day, which is the very point of the day game. The information lost is not just the flip of a person, but who voted them, with what arguments, and forms the very foundation of how the town power roles will choose their night actions. Information is key, and timely information moreso. People flipping at the start of D2 is not nearly as useful, and a nolynch will result in people using their powers on whoever they were voting (if block/investigate) or a crapshoot for protections and the like, due to lack of context and closure.

A D1 no-lynch pretty much wastes all of D1 content, and gives scum a chance to NK/convert/whatever while town has to shoot in the dark. The amount of information lost is not small, but most importantly, you lose the opportunity to use it. N1 will never come again. Even if you learn the information later, you'll never get that night back, which scum got for free. Not good for town at all.

Quote from: Hapah on May 08, 2012, 07:22:06 pm

Also considering the fact that the D1 lynchee is almost always town (when was the last time anyone saw a scum hang D1?),

Not that rare. The very last game I played (Cybrid Mafia 3 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=104547.msg3146622#msg3146622)) we lynched scum D1. A couple games before that (Politibastard) as well, though that was a... different sort of game. I'm sure there are several others.

So sure, it doesn't happen that often, but it certainly does happen. Plus the possibility of a mislynch is built into the balance of the game. If there is going to be one, it's best for town that it happens sooner rather than later, so maximum information is provided early. It's never good, but a D1 no-lynch is worse.

Please disabuse yourself of the notion that a D1 no-lynch is good for town ever. Except in very narrow types of games where constant (not just D1) no-lynch can be used to break the setup (which is not the case here), whenever you think a D1 no-lynch is good because it's cautious, it's misapplied caution, and will hurt town much more than a possible mislynch would.

Spoiler: Dakarian's Scumhunting Bible, reposted here for your convenience (click to show/hide)

A VERY rough sketch of how a scumhunt is done (to help those who aren't sure now).
Step 1: When you have no suspicions on anyone, pick someone at random (I MEAN random.. some use Random.org for this!), take a glance as their past posts, and talk to them, usually with a vote.  The goal is not to kill but to learn more about them.  The vote is a "Pressure Vote", simply used to make sure they don't ignore you.

Step 2: When someone feels 'off' to you: perhaps you disliked their answer, or maybe they scare you, or confuse you with their text.  Perhaps they look fine but your feelings or your gut says something is wrong. Perhaps you see them do one scumtell.  Don't ignore it: make them your target.  Attack them.  Tell them what bothers you about them.  Push them, harass them.  Tell them how scummy they are.  Ask them every question in the book.. and I mean EVERYTHING:

Litia: "You bother me.  Vote Dakarian!"
Dak: Meh.  Why?
Litia: "Because you bother me.  Why are you pushing me off as if it doesn't matter?"
Dak: "What? No, you just have nothing on me."
Litia: "You're voting for Vector.  why?"
Dak: "He looked scummy.."
Litia: "Vagueness is a scumtell!  "Scummy.. how is he scummy!"
Dak: "He just is.. you don't have a reason to go after me either."
Litia: "OMGUSing now Mr.Scum?  Being defensive?  You also didn't answer my question!"

Note, this is Step 2: Litia doesn't feel like she knows Dakarian is scum.. just had a 'feeling'.  She has no hard evidence, nothing real.  The questions are to add pressure.. make Dakarian crack and panic.  If you did it right, they WILL town or scum.  WHEN they do, you will be able to see more of their true self.  From there, decide if you can find them as scum for truth.  If you don't: pull out and go to your next suspect: if no one else is there, go back to Step 1.
If you do believe they are scum after that, Step 3:

Step 3: When you believe someone is scum, gather evidence.  Find every scum tell, every sign of their true [/list]

Spoiler: CEAs (Commonly Encountered Abbreviations) and Other Terminology Commonly Found in Bay12 Mafia (click to show/hide)

Alignment - Who you share a victory condition with. Town-aligned, Scum-aligned, or third party alignments.

Bandwagon - Multiple votes on a single person. Can be justified, or unjustified. Unjustified bandwagons are scummy. Joining bandwagons blindly or without reason is also scummy.

BM - Beginner's Mafia (Or, Bastard Mod, a Mafia game with a purposefully unreliable moderator, or misleading information)

Bus - (noun: the bus ; verb: bussing, throwing him/her under the bus) When a mafia member attacks another one in order to make themselves look like a loyal townie when his or her scumpartner gets lynched.

Cult - A group of players that share a win condition, know each other, and can communicate freely. They are generally a second type of scum, although rarely they can be town-aligned. Instead of a kill, they can recruit players into the cult. There is generally a cult leader, who is in charge of recruiting.

EBWOP - Edit By Way of Post. Since editing isn't allowed in mafia, one may make a second post correcting any errors or missed information in their previous post.

FoS - Finger of Suspicion, writing someone's name in blue signifies a great deal of suspicion. It's kind of like a fake-vote, or the threat of a vote. Good for getting attention.

FTD - Failure to Deliver, also known as Toaster's #1 Scumtell. The act of promising to post more information at a later time, and then failing to do so. A very difficult action to justify as town, because it means you are either lazy or lying, it is therefore seen as a pretty solid scumtell.

IC - Inexperienced Challenged, players who are too experienced to justify playing in a Beginner's Mafia, and act as mentors/guides for the Town or the Scum.

Lurking - Purposefully not posting, so that you have few or no posts that can be analyzed. Generally a good strategy for scum. However, has the danger of earning you prods, getting modkilled, or found out via Zathras' Lurkertracker. Lurking is different than simply being away or unavailable. A good way to tell if someone is lurking is to check their profile's last active time, and compare it to their last post.

LYLO - Lynch or Lose, a situation where Town only outnumbers Scum by a single person (e.g. 3 town vs. 2 scum). During LYLO, Town MUST lynch Scum or instantly lose.

Masons - A group of town-aligned players who know each other to be town-aligned. They can communicate with each other freely.

MYLO - Mislynch and Lose, a situation where Town outnumbers Scum by two people (4 town vs. 2 scum). During MYLO, if Town lynches Town, Scum will win after night-killing town, making it 2 town vs. 2 scum, which is an instant scum win.

NL - No Lynch, to choose to end the day without lynching anyone and see if any information is revealed in the night.

OMGUS - Oh My God U Suck, a vote on someone else simply because they voted or attacked you

PFP - Posting From Phone (or Profession), throwing up a short post to prove you aren't lurking, when you are too busy at the time to make a more complete post.

PL - Policy Lynch, lynching someone for reasons other than scumminess. Variants are Lynch All Lurkers, Lynch All Liars, etc. Also see: Org.

PPE - Pre-Post Edit, typically done when you go to either Preview or Post and notice that someone else has posted before you. PPE is shorthand for acknowledging the "Warning - You may wish to review your post" message.

RIA - Refuge in Audacity, acting really crazy or really scummy to make people think that you couldn't possibly be scum because of how crazy you are. This never works. Neither does sarcasm in general, really. If you want to be sarcastic, make it painfully obvious you are being sarcastic, with <sarcasm>fake sarcasm tags</sarcasm>. Even still, it's not a good idea, because Mafia is SERIOUS BUSINESS

Role - Also called Power Role, any special powers you have. Cops, doctors, roleblockers, and godfathers are examples of classic roles. Some roles are alignment-specific, some aren't, and some can be for any alignment.

Rolefishing - Any question or attempt to learn information about someone's role. Typically something done at the beginning of the game. Typically a scum move, because it is in scum's advantage to find and lynch powerful roles. Can be acceptable later in the game, or in special circumstances where it is beneficial for town to learn someone's role. The reason it is scummy is because the really powerful town roles want to stay hidden so they don't get lynched by scum, and bringing attention to them by rolefishing risks their secrecy.

RVS - Random Voting Stage, the early-early game, shortly after the game begins, where people randomly vote each other and ask each other different questions, trying to find any good reason to suspect someone.

Scum - Mafia, or someone who isn't aligned with the Town. The Informed Minority.

SK - Serial Killer, a third party role with a nightkill, and who is hostile to everyone.

Survivor - a third party role whose win condition requires that they be alive at the end of the game. Normal players can die and still win as long as their team as a whole wins, but a survivor must actually be alive at the end.

Third Party - an alignment that is independent of scum and town. Has a unique victory condition, and is typically a lone wolf type character.

Town - The anti-Scum. The uninformed majority.

Vanilla - Someone who doesn't have a power role. "Vanilla Town", "Vanilla Scum", etc.

WIFOM - Wine In Front Of Me, the circular reasoning that results from trying to determine the choices of an opponent who acted with full knowledge that his behavior would be subject to scrutiny.

Quote from: Princess Bride

"All right: where is the poison? The battle of wits has begun. It ends when you decide and we both drink, and find out who is right and who is dead."

"But it's so simple. All I have to do is divine from what I know of you. Are you the sort of man who would put the poison into his own goblet, or his enemy's?"

WoT - Wall of Text; a really really long post. Sometimes unavoidable, but generally you should try to keep them to a minimum. Sometimes scum use them to seem more active then they are.

Massclaim - When everyone starts roleclaiming, or saying they are a power role.

Spoiler: A List of Common Scumtells (click to show/hide)

(Thanks to IronyOwl for making the orig. version!)

Scumtells are things that someone does or says that imply that they're scum. Usually the reasoning is that it's bad or not productive for townies to do it, so it can be hard to distinguish signs of being scum from signs of being a noob. This is one of the reasons scum almost always win beginner's mafia games.

Note that scumtells are very very subjective; there's no simple way to distinguish a scumtell from a noobtell from being justified and/or lazy. Whether a justified, non-scummy version of a scumtell should still be called by its normal name varies from person to person. (Someone might describe their voting of someone who voted them as "not an OMGUS," other would say it's "a justified OMGUS" for instance)

In any case, common scumtells include:

Bandwagoning: Voting for whoever has the most votes or seems most likely to be lynched, despite having poor/no reasons or not wanting them lynched previously. It implies that you don't care who gets lynched, you just want someone gone, which is generally the case for scum.

OMGUSing: Short for Oh My God You Suck, by the way. Voting or otherwise applying pressure to whoever's voting you. It implies that you're really concerned about being pressured/lynched and want them to stop, which is more a scum thing. A townie would, in theory, be more open to the notion that their fellow townie is attempting to scumhunt at them, and less concerned about being found out.

Defending/Chainsawing: Defending just means what it sounds like: saying things to defend another player's actions or words. Chainsawing or chainsaw defending means attacking someone who's attacking another player in an attempt to get them to stop. The idea in both instances is that townies don't know if their fellow players are innocent or not, and hence have no real reason to defend them from legitimate persecution. Scum, on the other hand, know they're on a team and so are prone to not wanting their buddies found out or pressured.

Lurking: Not posting. Especially suspicious in the case of Active Lurking, which is trying to look active while not actually doing anything (posting frequently but with no substance, for instance). The idea in either case is that townies actually care about finding scum, and so should be doing things. Scum don't care, they just want some random guy lynched so they can kill someone at night.

Trying Too Hard To Appear Townie: There's no official name for this one, but being too concerned about your image; specifically avoiding things that might be seen as scumtells. The idea is that scum are very concerned about being found out, and so want to act nonscummy. Townies know they're not scum, so they're less concerned about LOOKING nonscummy and more concerned about finding scum. Note: this is not to be confused with the Too Townie fallacy, a terrible arguement that a lack of scumminess makes a player scum. The Trying to Hard scumtell refers to someone actively trying to appear town, not a lack of scumminess.

Passiveness: This is when a person refuses, simply hasn't or seems reluctant to take a stance, such as lynches. Scum will be concerned about their image, and thus don't want to be seen supporting a town lynch or an attack on a town.

Backtracking: When a person changes their stance on a subject after stating it, such as supporting a lynch and after doing so claiming that they didn't do it. This is very suspicious, and is often a sign of scum wanting to retreat their position so as to be able to save their face.

Lying: Well this should be obvious, right? It happens when someone fakeclaims (says they're a cop/doc, but is just town for example), fabricates evidence and stuff like that.

Rolefishing: Trying to find powerroles (cop and doc in vanilla Mafia), often via questioning.

Quote from: Argembarger

Resigning yourself to being lynched.
Saying something like "there's no way for me to avoid being lynched so I won't bother trying"
Blackmailing the town, like "You can lynch me, but you'll be sorry when you see I was town all along!"
Voting yourself for any reason.

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Frequently Asked Questions

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

• Oh my god this game seems fun. But wait, what are the rules?
  This (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=39338.0) is a good Mafia tutorial, brought to you by the wise JoshuaFH. Heed his words. It isn't included here because it's rather too long for that.
• People are accusing me of being scum! I'm about to get lynched! What do I do?
  The first and most important order of business is not to give up.
  One, two votes isn't much. Even if someone's got a bandwagon on you and people are writing walls of accusations, do not lose hope. You can still turn this around, no matter how bleak it appears. Fight them with your own arguments, and search for people you may think are scum, and try to turn the votes against them. About the worst thing you can do is give up, whether you are town or scum; you are harming the town by making it lose another member, distracting them from hunts for the true scum, and worsening your own game as well.
  The other players have nothing against you: it's just how the game goes. Even if you foul it up and people yell at you for it, once the game is over we're all friends.
  There are still people who give up, saying things like "You'll all be sorry when you find out I'm just town afterwards!" and "I'm not even going to try, there no way to stop this". Don't be that guy. Not only is it rather selfish, it will simply deepen your grave. You have to get out of it with real, meat-laden arguments, and these empty threats and remarks will only make you appear more scummy.
• Do I have to post so much? I can't be bothered.
  Yes, you do. You have to be an active player to scumhunt effectively, and with a lurking playerbase you might as well just hand it to the scum. There is always something to say; even if someone said what you wanted to, say it anyways in your own words. Always ask questions, always observe.
  This is a very demanding game. If you don't have enough time, then perhaps you should look elsewhere.
• How do I even tell if someone's scum anyways?
  This is, in fact, a difficult question. The game involves a lot of observation, and often it's more about intuition.
  You can often tell with the help of the List of Common Scumtells, provided below, but don't make the mistake of overusing it. Not every accusal against you is an OMGUS, and not all attempts at logic are WIFOM.  If in doubt, always remember Sturgeon's Law: 90% of everything is crap. Don't take anything for granted.
• What's all this wine stuff that players keep talking about? Does Mafia cause alcoholism?
  They are likely referring to the concept of WIFOM. It's a name for the kind of circular reasoning that you'd find when scrutinising scum motives, and is described in the CEAs (Commonly Encountered Abbreviations) and Other Terminology Commonly Found in Bay12 Mafia below. It goes like this:
  
  A: Why didn't our most active player get killed? It would be the scum's goal to kill the most active players to remove accusal, wouldn't it? The only conclusion is that [active player] is scum!
  
  B: Or is it? What if the scum wants to keep the most active player to draw suspicion on him? The scum could then head the attack on this player, thus pushing themselves into a position of trust amongst the town! I've got my eye on you, A!
  
  A: No, that isn't right! Clearly, they would stay in the background, and the people who go for the bait like me would be attacked by the scum, thus making themselves appear insightful! B, how dare you do this to me!
  
  B: Or perhaps the scum would be someone voting for a person that isn't the subject of a bandwagon, thus appearing both inconspicuous and independent! [lurker], you are scum!
  
  As you can see here, both A and B are making wild speculations on the motives of the scum. Their votes and eyes are all over the place, and nothing is really getting done. It distracts from real scumhunting, which is seeing people play and making observations from that, not speculating on how people would or would not play.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Now in Sign-Ups!!
Post by: Jack A T on May 16, 2014, 01:05:38 am

I feel like a bit of Mafia right now.  In as an IC.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Now in Sign-Ups!!
Post by: The Soldier on May 16, 2014, 01:09:02 am

Replacement queue

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Now in Sign-Ups!!
Post by: darkpaladin109 on May 16, 2014, 01:27:57 am

In.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Now in Sign-Ups!!
Post by: borno on May 16, 2014, 06:35:31 am

I haven't played in a while, but may I join?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Now in Sign-Ups!!
Post by: WhitiusOpus on May 16, 2014, 07:19:59 am

In, as long as we don't start for another week or so.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Now in Sign-Ups!!
Post by: Fniff on May 16, 2014, 07:26:46 am

In.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Now in Sign-Ups!!
Post by: RangerCado on May 16, 2014, 08:03:57 am

I'll IN as Replacement.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Now in Sign-Ups!!
Post by: Silthuri on May 16, 2014, 09:22:14 am

Quote from: borno on May 16, 2014, 06:35:31 am

I haven't played in a while, but may I join?

But of course!

Quote from: WhitiusOpus on May 16, 2014, 07:19:59 am

In, as long as we don't start for another week or so.

I was planning on holding off the beginning of the game until the end of next week regardless. Would that work for you?

EDIT: This is filling up much more quickly than I had anticipated and we have a couple good replacements. I'll place you on the replacement list and if no one shows up before the end of next week I'll bump you up to playing.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Now in Sign-Ups!!
Post by: Scripten on May 16, 2014, 09:32:55 am

Had a lot of fun with the last game, so I'd love to jump in and play.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Now in Sign-Ups!!
Post by: Tiruin on May 16, 2014, 09:35:22 am

Watchin'

May consider being IC because MOWE. :P :>

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Now in Sign-Ups!!
Post by: Persus13 on May 16, 2014, 10:39:23 am

Scum IC

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Now in Sign-Ups!!
Post by: Tiruin on May 16, 2014, 10:41:15 am

Quote from: Persus13 on May 16, 2014, 10:39:23 am

Scum IC

Curses. :I

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Now in Sign-Ups!!
Post by: Persus13 on May 16, 2014, 10:45:46 am

Quote from: Tiruin on May 16, 2014, 10:41:15 am

Quote from: Persus13 on May 16, 2014, 10:39:23 am

Scum IC

Curses. :I

You could always be an actual IC. Your levels are activity are generally higher than mine, so you'd be better participant than me.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Now in Sign-Ups!!
Post by: GreatWyrmGold on May 16, 2014, 12:19:58 pm

I've been told that the previous Beginner's Mafia was unusually bad, so I'm willing to give this another try.

Sufficiently cheesy in-notice?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Now in Sign-Ups!!
Post by: Tiruin on May 16, 2014, 12:23:26 pm

Whether bad or not, you should give both with an open mind and not be that judgemental given your experience. :p

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Now in Sign-Ups!!
Post by: GreatWyrmGold on May 16, 2014, 12:37:00 pm

A quick note on the OP:

It's contradictory. "Townies wouldn't be concerned about being killed," but if that happens, "you are harming the town by making it lose another member, distracting them from hunts for the true scum, and worsening your own game as well." Also, your "scumtells" make it so that literally everyone is giving some. Either they do one of the wide array of scumtells, or they don't do any and are hence suspicious. Plus, the only really "strong" ones (ie, the ones which give people good reason to be suspicious) are the really obvious ones, like lying and backtracking...which are not only not something beginners would need to be told, but also things that no sane mafia would do.
Mind, I'm not criticizing you, MOWE, the guide is comprehensive. It's a bit like if I saw a well-written book on astrology; the author's good, but the subject matter is highly questionable. Which is my point. Don't put too much faith in scumtells.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Now in Sign-Ups!!
Post by: Tiruin on May 16, 2014, 12:39:50 pm

 ::)
No, it's not contradictory. Analyze the context.
You're bloody generalizing. Again.

Quote

"Townies wouldn't be concerned about being killed," but if that happens, "you are harming the town by making it lose another member, distracting them from hunts for the true scum, and worsening your own game as well.

^ has context. Stuff which you aren't detailing.

Quote

Also, your "scumtells" make it so that literally everyone is giving some. Either they do one of the wide array of scumtells, or they don't do any and are hence suspicious. Plus, the only really "strong" ones (ie, the ones which give people good reason to be suspicious) are the really obvious ones, like lying and backtracking...which are not only not something beginners would need to be told, but also things that no sane mafia would do.

^ has even MORE context. Which you have pretty much an easy time generalizing and not detailing.

Sometimes I seriously wonder if there's something with you on that aspect of your attitude :/

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Now in Sign-Ups!!
Post by: GreatWyrmGold on May 16, 2014, 12:51:59 pm

Quote from: Tiruin on May 16, 2014, 12:39:50 pm

Quote

"Townies wouldn't be concerned about being killed," but if that happens, "you are harming the town by making it lose another member, distracting them from hunts for the true scum, and worsening your own game as well.

^ has context. Stuff which you aren't detailing.

Quote from: Context

[Reacting to people wanting you lynched] implies that you're really concerned about being pressured/lynched and want them to stop, which is more a scum thing. A townie would, in theory, be more open to the notion that their fellow townie is attempting to scumhunt at them, and less concerned about being found out.

...

About the worst thing you can do is give up, whether you are town or scum; you are harming the town by making it lose another member, distracting them from hunts for the true scum, and worsening your own game as well.

Sorry, I don't see it. In one it's saying that [X] is a scumtell because good townies don't care much if they're lynched, and in the other it's saying that a good townie tries not to be lynched.
Is it theoretically possible for both facts to be true? Yes. Is it possible for the reasoning behind them to both be valid? No. Hence, I'd argue that it's you who's missing the context.

Quote

Quote

Also, your "scumtells" make it so that literally everyone is giving some. Either they do one of the wide array of scumtells, or they don't do any and are hence suspicious. Plus, the only really "strong" ones (ie, the ones which give people good reason to be suspicious) are the really obvious ones, like lying and backtracking...which are not only not something beginners would need to be told, but also things that no sane mafia would do.

^ has even MORE context. Which you have pretty much an easy time generalizing and not detailing.
Sometimes I seriously wonder if there's something with you on that aspect of your attitude :/

What context am I missing?
1. "Trying too hard to not look like mafia" is a scumtell. Therefore, if someone gives no scumtells, he's a scum because he's trying too hard not to look like a scum.
2. A scum would logically try not to leave many signs. Therefore, a real scum would more likely have only a couple scumtells visible rather than a plethora. Hence, someone who gives a small number of scumtells is also a scum.
3. Let's not get into how good townies would also want to avoid being mistaken for scum, for both personal and team reasons. Unless, of course, you buy the "only mafia would fight against being lynched" bit...

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Now in Sign-Ups!!
Post by: Tiruin on May 16, 2014, 12:56:33 pm

Quote from: GreatWyrmGold on May 16, 2014, 12:51:59 pm

Sorry, I don't see it. In one it's saying that [X] is a scumtell because good townies don't care much if they're lynched, and in the other it's saying that a good townie tries not to be lynched.
Is it theoretically possible for both facts to be true? Yes. Is it possible for the reasoning behind them to both be valid? No. Hence, I'd argue that it's you who's missing the context.

...I must introduce you to rhetoric.
Because you are too much of a generalist, sir. :P
Tiruin as playing IC, IN.
Meaning: Those things require context to be understood, and at a glance may look contradictory, but are not. It's like that Astrology thing you're criticizing. The subject is highly questionable due to you/your mind not having been exposed to it, but rather only the superficial articles about it via crude observation.

There's a 'because' behind all those reasons. Good townies don't mind being lynched because they'd be scumhunting as their goal--if they get lynched, they try their best in getting as much info from their pursuers that they can, and mostly this overturns the lynch.
Your "a good townie tries not to be lynched" is badly paraphrased from the original statement.

Quote

you are harming the town by making it lose another member, distracting them from hunts for the true scum, and worsening your own game as well.

Which is where I wonder if something is up on your side :/
Your concept of 'loss' ignores the gain by said loss. Your concept of loss focuses purely only that the member is dead, and not what the member has done--the generalization to your statements and the objective conclusion afterwards which I'm poking.

Said quote seems to be taken out of context from a rather distinct area there. Mind to quote it?

Quote from: GreatWyrmGold on May 16, 2014, 12:51:59 pm

Quote

Quote

Also, your "scumtells" make it so that literally everyone is giving some. Either they do one of the wide array of scumtells, or they don't do any and are hence suspicious. Plus, the only really "strong" ones (ie, the ones which give people good reason to be suspicious) are the really obvious ones, like lying and backtracking...which are not only not something beginners would need to be told, but also things that no sane mafia would do.

^ has even MORE context. Which you have pretty much an easy time generalizing and not detailing.
Sometimes I seriously wonder if there's something with you on that aspect of your attitude :/

What context am I missing?
1. "Trying too hard to not look like mafia" is a scumtell. Therefore, if someone gives no scumtells, he's a scum because he's trying too hard not to look like a scum.
2. A scum would logically try not to leave many signs. Therefore, a real scum would more likely have only a couple scumtells visible rather than a plethora. Hence, someone who gives a small number of scumtells is also a scum.
3. Let's not get into how good townies would also want to avoid being mistaken for scum, for both personal and team reasons. Unless, of course, you buy the "only mafia would fight against being lynched" bit...

What context? That you may be taking many things a bit too objectively, for one.
1. Prove. Note: "Trying" = actively doing. As in, it can be sensed. Your example does NOT (@orange) take that up. This requires context to specify.
2. Prove. There are underlying reasons why a scumtell is a scumtell and not a towntell or a newbietell.
3. Prove. Generally everyone will fight the lynch, but also will fight according to their principle.
All of such are guides and not laws. :V

...What happened in your BM Sprint!? You should be acquainted with the game already due to it being a BM! (though fast paced :v)

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Now in Sign-Ups!!
Post by: GreatWyrmGold on May 16, 2014, 01:09:31 pm

Then introduce me to rhetoric.


If it's all subjective anyways, or the important bits at least, what's the point? Especially since, as I've repeatedly pointed out, everything can be a scumtell.
1. OP, "Common Scumtells," "Trying Too Hard To Appear Townie"
2. Common sense. Scum don't want townies to know they're scum. I swear, next I'll be needing to prove that scum want to win.
3. OP, "FAQ," "People are accusing me of being scum! I'm about to get lynched! What do I do?"

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Now in Sign-Ups!!
Post by: Tiruin on May 16, 2014, 01:12:25 pm

*points at edit* :P

Quote from: GreatWyrmGold on May 16, 2014, 01:09:31 pm

If it's all subjective anyways, or the important bits at least, what's the point? Especially since, as I've repeatedly pointed out, everything can be a scumtell.

Generalizing again!~~ :P

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Now in Sign-Ups!!
Post by: GreatWyrmGold on May 16, 2014, 01:25:41 pm

Quote from: Tiruin on May 16, 2014, 01:12:25 pm

*points at edit* :P

Bit of a pain.

Quote

Quote from: GreatWyrmGold on May 16, 2014, 01:09:31 pm

If it's all subjective anyways, or the important bits at least, what's the point? Especially since, as I've repeatedly pointed out, everything can be a scumtell.

Generalizing again!~~ :P

We're talking about a general guide. The points made within are meant to be generalized.

Quote from: Tiruin on May 16, 2014, 12:56:33 pm

Meaning: Those things require context to be understood, and at a glance may look contradictory, but are not. It's like that Astrology thing you're criticizing. The subject is highly questionable due to you/your mind not having been exposed to it, but rather only the superficial articles about it via crude observation.

Alright, first off, that was an analogy, and do you honestly believe in astrology?
Second off, what "context" do I need? I hate always comparing people I'm arguing with to fundies, but it's reminding me of people responding to my complaints about the Bible being contradictory or the actions of saints being horrible by simply saying I'm taking them out of context...without adequately explaining what context I'm missing.

Quote

There's a 'because' behind all those reasons. Good townies don't mind being lynched because they'd be scumhunting as their goal--if they get lynched, they try their best in getting as much info from their pursuers that they can, and mostly this overturns the lynch.
Your "a good townie tries not to be lynched" is badly paraphrased from the original statement.

How would you paraphrase it?
And, as I've noted, my problem is with the reasoning. The conclusions aren't contradictory, the reasoning is.

Quote

Your concept of 'loss' ignores the gain by said loss. Your concept of loss focuses purely only that the member is dead, and not what the member has done--the generalization to your statements and the objective conclusion afterwards which I'm poking.

The OP doesn't make any considerations for that. And besides, I'm still confused...how can a mislynch help the town?

Quote

Said quote seems to be taken out of context from a rather distinct area there. Mind to quote it?

ctl-f, it's not that hard.
Second frequently asked question.

Quote

Fight them with your own arguments, and search for people you may think are scum, and try to turn the votes against them. About the worst thing you can do is give up, whether you are town or scum; you are harming the town by making it lose another member, distracting them from hunts for the true scum, and worsening your own game as well.

I dunno about you, but when I read that, I see that as saying "you should try not to be lynched, because that will always hurt your team".

Quote

1. Prove. Note: "Trying" = actively doing. As in, it can be sensed. Your example does NOT (@orange) take that up. This requires context to specify.
2. Prove. There are underlying reasons why a scumtell is a scumtell and not a towntell or a newbietell.
3. Prove. Generally everyone will fight the lynch, but also will fight according to their principle.
All of such are guides and not laws. :V

1. Alright, how do you tell that someone's trying to hide their scumtells, as opposed to someone who just doesn't have them? Wouldn't the most logical way to hide them be to know what they are and not do them at all, rather than...I dunno, how are you supposed to hide scumtells in some other way?
2. So, either scum leave no scumtells, or a lot? There's no middle ground? B.S. Not to mention the idea that scum will give off a whole lot of scumtells is not only BS, it's BS that could easily lead to mislynches if the mafia doesn't but enough players, trying to find all the scumtells, finds a bunch of alleged scumtells in a random (probably town) player's posts.
3. How does the "principle" affect how they will fight? Do mafias' principles force them to bold their arguments or something?
Remember, we don't have telepathy, or even the ability to see each others' faces. All we have are text, text freely given and, if the player is a mafia, almost certainly carefully thought-out.

Quote

...What happened in your BM Sprint!? You should be acquainted with the game already due to it being a BM! (though fast paced :v)

You were there, weren't you? You saw what happened.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Now in Sign-Ups!!
Post by: Jack A T on May 16, 2014, 01:30:57 pm

GreatWyrmGold:
On scumtells: You are right that scumtells do get dropped by townies.  There is a reason why we question people who do things that are odd for town to do, instead of just yelling out "LOOK SCUMTELL."  Good play involves the use of questions to help determine why players behave oddly.  In a full-length game like this, there is plenty of time to ask and answer questions.

Also, anyone who votes someone for not showing any odd behaviours (the Too Townie fallacy: "You look so town you must be scum") is a twit.  The "trying to hard" thing does not refer to a case where a player is not looking odd, but a case where the player is clearly trying to control their image (example: it's amazing how often people explicitly announce that they, say, don't want to vote someone because it would look scummy).

On town lynch avoidance: Townies are expected to defend themselves, and it is not scummy to do so.  They are not expected to get incredibly panicky under a few votes, but they are expected to defend themselves.  It is, after all, best to lynch the scum, not townies.

However, the death of a townie (when not at MYLO/LYLO) causes far less damage to the townteam than the death of a scumteam member causes to the scumteam.  In fact, lynching townies leaves information behind that can help determine who the scum is (this being why No Lynch at D1 is considered even less helpful than lynching a vanilla townie).  Excessive panic upon being attacked may be a sign of scumhood, and should be questioned.

PPE: How about we take this whole discussion to a separate thread?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Now in Sign-Ups!!
Post by: GreatWyrmGold on May 16, 2014, 01:45:25 pm

How do you tell honest-mistake answers from mafia-coverup answers? Hope that the mafia give obviously flawed reasons?

Ah, so it only applies if the mafia are being obvious. Useful.

What's the boundary between "panicky" and "not panicky"? Wouldn't it logically depend on the personality of the actual player? Isn't all of this making it so subjective as to be almost useless?

Make another thread and I'll join it.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Now in Sign-Ups!!
Post by: Jack A T on May 16, 2014, 01:49:12 pm

Starting the thread.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Now in Sign-Ups!!
Post by: RangerCado on May 16, 2014, 01:53:20 pm

Switch my replacement In to an actual IN, I have time. :D

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Now in Sign-Ups!!
Post by: Silthuri on May 16, 2014, 02:02:51 pm

Alrighty! Game will start Monday to avoid the weekend drag.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Sign-Ups Closed
Post by: tn5421 on May 16, 2014, 10:03:36 pm

Confirming /pre-in

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Sign-Ups Closed
Post by: GreatWyrmGold on May 17, 2014, 10:31:55 pm

Out.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - One Spot Left!!
Post by: Jack A T on May 18, 2014, 01:51:53 am

After both the GWG conversation and a review of previous BMs, I suggest a small alteration to the List of Common Scumtells: the addition of a note for "Trying Too Hard To Appear Townie" indicating that it does not refer to a player not showing any scumtells, but instead to a player actively avoiding any behaviour that might be seen as scummy.  Something about the Too Townie fallacy might be useful.

Possibility:
"Note: This is not to be confused with the Too Townie fallacy, a terrible argument that a lack of scumminess makes a player scum.  The "Trying Too Hard" scumtell refers to active image control efforts, not a lack of scumminess."

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - One Spot Left!!
Post by: Persus13 on May 18, 2014, 06:25:08 am

I'd like to second this.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - One Spot Left!!
Post by: Silthuri on May 18, 2014, 10:10:51 am

Note has been added.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - One Spot Left!!
Post by: Kansa on May 19, 2014, 02:13:37 pm

I'll go in for this if that's ok

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - One Spot Left!!
Post by: Jack A T on May 19, 2014, 02:15:42 pm

It is very OK.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - One Spot Left!!
Post by: Nerjin on May 19, 2014, 03:00:15 pm

Watching this. Good luck dove!

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - One Spot Left!!
Post by: Silthuri on May 19, 2014, 03:45:29 pm

Looks like we've got everyone now. PM's will be sent in a bit and game will start in a few hours.

Quote from: Nerjin on May 19, 2014, 03:00:15 pm

Watching this. Good luck dove!

Thank you! <3

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - One Spot Left!!
Post by: Silthuri on May 19, 2014, 05:58:21 pm

Nine vampires met in the gloomy dungeon of their castle, armed only with the knowledge that two among them were traitors and had to be dealt with. They had locked themselves in the dungeon to keep the traitors away from the Mistress, for she had to survive. They would go to any lengths to keep the Mistress safe, no matter how many had to die in the process. They stared each other down as the debate began.

Votecount:

• darkpaladin109
• borno:
• Fniff:
• Scripten:
• tn5421:
• RangerCado:
• Kansa:
• Jack A T:
• Tiruin:

Votes to Extend: [0/3]
Votes to Shorten: [0/5]

Day one had begun and will end Thursday at 7 pm EST

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day One
Post by: Jack A T on May 19, 2014, 06:28:11 pm

Greetings.  I'm Jack A T, and I am one of the ICs.  Essentially, I am a teacher and mentor, as well as a player.  Any advice I give will be honest and in good faith, even if it is to my harm.  I will give this advice whenever asked, and whenever I feel like it.  Do listen, please.

Feel free to ask Tiruin and I any questions you want about Mafia.  That's what we're here for.

Town: Your mission is to find and eliminate the scum.  Keep that in mind.  Whatever you do should be meant to further that goal.

Be bold.  Be active.  Hunt scum.

---

Generally, this game starts with a period called the Random Vote Stage (RVS).  In RVS, you vote for a player and ask them (and preferably others) a game-related question.  This is primarily to get a conversation started.

Beyond that, keep on asking questions about anything you find odd or suspicious, or are just interested in.

---

A general tip: when answering questions about the game, assume that "Why?" is part of the question.

darkpaladin109: Please summarize your previous Mafia experience, whether on or off this forum.  In addition, which role do you feel would help the town more: the cop or the jailkeeper?
borno: Please summarize your previous Mafia experience, whether on or off this forum.  In addition, what scumtell (aside from lying) do you feel is scummiest in general?
Fniff: Please summarize your previous Mafia experience, whether on or off this forum.  In addition, imagine you're the jailkeeper.  Who do you act on: a scummy player or a player you think the scum are likely to kill?
Scripten: Please summarize your previous Mafia experience, whether on or off this forum.  In addition, imagine it's 5 player LYLO, you're a vanilla townie, and there are two cop claims.  Each claims a guilty on the other, and an innocent on you.  What would you do to sort this situation out?
tn5421: Imagine you're a cop.  What would you consider to be your goal in your night inspects: finding scum or finding town?
RangerCado: Please summarize your previous Mafia experience, whether on or off this forum.  In addition, imagine you're a cop.  Who do you investigate: an IC, a suspicious non-IC, or a hard-to-read non-IC?
Kansa: Please summarize your previous Mafia experience, whether on or off this forum.  In addition, which town power role (PR) would you rather be: the cop, or the jailkeeper?
Tiruin: You recently participated in a game with this setup, but without the teaching elements: NSBM 4.  What did you learn from that game that you can apply to this game?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day One
Post by: RangerCado on May 19, 2014, 06:41:45 pm

Jack A T: I have played several games on this forum, though am probably in the lower end on skill. I have played some games IRL, and am also about to start a game on the board as a Mod. I would check the hard to read non-IC as its better to get a read you can trust on someone hard to read, rather than someone who is potentially more skilled... also, I know how Tiruin plays somewhat, so I think I can get a better read on her.

If you were a Jailer, what would be your criteria for your night 1 target?

Tiruin: Whats your take on the roster of players? Anyone you recognize who your going to be keeping an eye on? Potential skill?

Fniff: If you were a Cop, what day would you likely want to claim assuming a lynch and a kill happened every day and night?

DarkPaladin: Who of the current players would be your ideal scum buddy?

Kansa: Which IC do you believe is the biggest threat if they were a scum player? If you were a scum player?

borno: Whats your preferred role as Town and why?

Fniff: Who of the current players would be your ideal scum buddy?

Scripten:If you were a Cop, what day would you likely want to claim assuming a lynch and a kill happened every day and night?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day One
Post by: Fniff on May 19, 2014, 06:52:49 pm

Quote from: Jack A T on May 19, 2014, 06:28:11 pm

Fniff: Please summarize your previous Mafia experience, whether on or off this forum.  In addition, imagine you're the jailkeeper.  Who do you act on: a scummy player or a player you think the scum are likely to kill?

I was playing the One Day mafia. It was confusing, fast, and didn't teach me anything at all about playing mafia. Not good for a first time player. As for the jailkeeper, I'd prefer to block the likely to be killed player. Someone is going to be killed whether or not I block the scum, but a good player/role needs to be protected.

Quote from: RangerCado on May 19, 2014, 06:41:45 pm

Fniff: If you were a Cop, what day would you likely want to claim assuming a lynch and a kill happened every day and night?
Fniff: Who of the current players would be your ideal scum buddy?

1. If I was a cop, I wouldn't claim until I had a mafia confirmed. I would prefer this to be as early as possible, but if I claim the mafia will try to kill me and it would be a worthless sacrifice without some evidence. On the other hand, I might be lynched by the townies for seeming scummy, but that's always present no matter what you do.
2. Kansa would be my ideal scum buddy. We both know each other due to us both being in the same World of Darkness chronicle a while back, and I think we'd both be able to communicate with each other fairly well.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day One
Post by: Kansa on May 19, 2014, 06:56:05 pm

Jack A T: I have never played a game of Mafia before, this is my first time. I would prefer to be the Cop over the Jailkeeper, as it seems to be very useful to immediately be able to tell someone's alignment and be able to confirm or deny any suspicions about them.


RangerCado: I am not sure, I have not had enough experience with either of their play-styles or the game itself to make a judgement on that yet.

Which one would you say was the biggest threat?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day One
Post by: Jack A T on May 19, 2014, 07:11:07 pm

Quote from: RangerCado on May 19, 2014, 06:41:45 pm

If you were a Jailer, what would be your criteria for your night 1 target?

RangerCado: After looking at who voted for the lynch target and why (and there had better be a lynch), I would consider multiple possible targets.  If someone was particularly scummy D1, I would most likely jail them, hoping to prevent a kill.  Without a strong read, however, I would most likely jail Tiruin: there is a tendency for BM scumteams to kill ICs.
I say "most likely" in both cases due to the fact that any actual jailing would involve examining far more information than a hypothetical question at the start of D1 can handle.

A question to you: did you think, when asking darkpaladin and Fniff the same question about an ideal scumbuddy, about the potential of the first answerer's answer influencing the second answerer?

Quote from: Fniff on May 19, 2014, 06:52:49 pm

As for the jailkeeper, I'd prefer to block the likely to be killed player. Someone is going to be killed whether or not I block the scum, but a good player/role needs to be protected.

Fniff: If you block the scum player who would be carrying out the kill, you would prevent the kill.  How does that information change your answer, if at all?

Furthermore, why no questions?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day One
Post by: Fniff on May 19, 2014, 07:15:51 pm

Quote from: Jack A T on May 19, 2014, 07:11:07 pm

Quote from: Fniff on May 19, 2014, 06:52:49 pm

As for the jailkeeper, I'd prefer to block the likely to be killed player. Someone is going to be killed whether or not I block the scum, but a good player/role needs to be protected.

Fniff: If you block the scum player who would be carrying out the kill, you would prevent the kill.  How does that information change your answer, if at all?

Furthermore, why no questions?

I still don't know who the killer is going to be. I would prefer to protect the valuable player, even if it means blocking their activities. Keeping an important player alive as long as possible is worth it. As for no questions, well... one it's late and I can't think of any, and two I'm not sure if I'd have the knowledge to ask those questions. I might come up with some tomorrow.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day One
Post by: Scripten on May 19, 2014, 07:16:17 pm

Quote from: Jack A T on May 19, 2014, 06:28:11 pm

Scripten: Please summarize your previous Mafia experience, whether on or off this forum.  In addition, imagine it's 5 player LYLO, you're a vanilla townie, and there are two cop claims.  Each claims a guilty on the other, and an innocent on you.  What would you do to sort this situation out?

Got to admit, my first experience with Mafia was not particularly helpful. I think the fact that it was sprint and that we had two players who didn't participate particularly well kind of killed it for me. Being inexperienced, I was not sure how to play my role (Macho Cop) as well as I probably should have. Even so, I had a lot of fun and it hooked me on mafia. I have also played one round on another forum, where I was a vanilla townie. In that game, I was the first one lynched, which could have doomed the mafia because one of them all but revealed themselves, but they night-killed the town cop and managed to avoid getting lynched by lurking on day two.

It's a possibility that both claims are false, since there are two other players. If both claims are made by scum, a third person may be the actual cop. Since this is a LYLO situation, I would first try to draw out the real cop by urging them to claim. In either situation, though, I would ask both of the players making their claim to detail the investigations they've made up to this point and the reasons for which they made them.

Quote from: RangerCado on May 19, 2014, 06:41:45 pm

Scripten:If you were a Cop, what day would you likely want to claim assuming a lynch and a kill happened every day and night?

I think it really depends on the atmosphere of the game. In a LYLO situation, I would definitely claim, since my decision to wait might have doomed the town in the first game I ever played. If we've lynched the first mafia player and I have an investigation on the second, I would probably make a claim. If we're not in a desperate situation as town and the mafia still has the advantage, I would wait, since claiming would make me a prime target for stabbing.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day One
Post by: Scripten on May 19, 2014, 07:22:00 pm

Also, as for questions, I haven't got a lot of time or information at the moment, so coming up with a list of questions for everyone is a bit much. Therefore, I'm just going to pose one question to everyone.

Everybody: Since this is a beginner's game, it's more likely that well-used scumtells will be less effective. What strategies do you think would be best in a situation like this, where players may not know what actions to avoid and which ones to look out for?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day One
Post by: RangerCado on May 19, 2014, 07:44:31 pm

Quote from: Kansa on May 19, 2014, 06:56:05 pm

RangerCado: I am not sure, I have not had enough experience with either of their play-styles or the game itself to make a judgement on that yet.
Which one would you say was the biggest threat?

Kansa: For me personally? Jack would be as I don't know him that well on the forum. This is for both. If I were Scum, I would fear Tiruin the most personally as well, due to her knowing more my style of play.

Quote from: Jack A T on May 19, 2014, 07:11:07 pm

Quote from: RangerCado on May 19, 2014, 06:41:45 pm

If you were a Jailer, what would be your criteria for your night 1 target?

RangerCado: After looking at who voted for the lynch target and why (and there had better be a lynch), I would consider multiple possible targets.  If someone was particularly scummy D1, I would most likely jail them, hoping to prevent a kill.  Without a strong read, however, I would most likely jail Tiruin: there is a tendency for BM scumteams to kill ICs.
I say "most likely" in both cases due to the fact that any actual jailing would involve examining far more information than a hypothetical question at the start of D1 can handle.

A question to you: did you think, when asking darkpaladin and Fniff the same question about an ideal scumbuddy, about the potential of the first answerer's answer influencing the second answerer?

Jack: It was mostly due to running out of ideas for questions. I was also distracted elsewhere, shown by asking Fniff two questions and forgetting about tn entirely. The potential is there, but it could also show some interesting information depending on their answers. Do you believe there will be a problem with this?

Quote from: Scripten on May 19, 2014, 07:22:00 pm

Everybody: Since this is a beginner's game, it's more likely that well-used scumtells will be less effective. What strategies do you think would be best in a situation like this, where players may not know what actions to avoid and which ones to look out for?

Scripten: I will likely use my usual strategies, but be SLIGHTLY more lenient on my reads. Tells are still tells, and hiding behind the newb screen can only go so far before people don't care anymore and vote you out regardless. Were you planning on hiding behind that screen?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day One
Post by: Jack A T on May 19, 2014, 07:55:50 pm

Quote from: Fniff on May 19, 2014, 07:15:51 pm

... and two I'm not sure if I'd have the knowledge to ask those questions.

Fniff: It may be helpful to check out the starts of some other games here.  There will usually be some questions you can use as models, or outright reuse.

Quote from: Scripten on May 19, 2014, 07:22:00 pm

Also, as for questions, I haven't got a lot of time or information at the moment, so coming up with a list of questions for everyone is a bit much. Therefore, I'm just going to pose one question to everyone.

Everybody: Since this is a beginner's game, it's more likely that well-used scumtells will be less effective. What strategies do you think would be best in a situation like this, where players may not know what actions to avoid and which ones to look out for?

Scripten: There is no need to make a list of questions for everyone.  It can be useful, but as long as you're asking good questions, you're starting well.
Regarding your question: It is generally a good idea to ask oneself whether observed actions make sense from the actor as a townie.  Furthermore, a scumtell is more than just a piece of evidence.  It is a topic to ask the actor about.  Questions about odd/scummy-looking actions help gather evidence for/against scumhood, and help players evaluate the scumminess of said actions.

The newbie tendency to screw up should be kept in mind when looking at everything, as a contextual factor when determining whether an action makes sense for town.  It should not overwhelm everything, but it must be considered.

Quote from: RangerCado on May 19, 2014, 07:44:31 pm

Jack: The potential is there, but it could also show some interesting information depending on their answers. Do you believe there will be a problem with this?

RangerCado: I do not think it will have an effect, as Fniff's answer was very personal.  Furthermore, I believe that the chance of influence would not have been a problem in any case.  It's a minor RVS question.

---

On asking questions directed to "Everybody"/"Everyone": This is not the best idea, as people tend to miss these.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day One
Post by: Jack A T on May 19, 2014, 08:11:01 pm

An additional note on evaluating newbie actions: This is why I asked all the beginners except tn5421 (who has the info in his sig) about their previous Mafia experience.  Knowing how familiar people are with Mafia, and what style they have played (if any), is useful information to know when evaluating actions.  Inexperience is less of a defense for someone who has played multiple Bay 12 Mafia games than for someone who has never played Mafia before, and someone from MafiaScum is probably more knowledgeable than someone from EpicMafia, for instance.

It's a good idea to be aware of how people answer(ed) the prior experience question.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day One
Post by: Scripten on May 19, 2014, 09:27:16 pm

Quote from: RangerCado on May 19, 2014, 07:44:31 pm

Scripten: I will likely use my usual strategies, but be SLIGHTLY more lenient on my reads. Tells are still tells, and hiding behind the newb screen can only go so far before people don't care anymore and vote you out regardless. Were you planning on hiding behind that screen?

Not at all. I couldn't justify hiding behind total inexperience when I've played a couple of games already, and even if I were new, logically explaining my actions would help the town and thus myself, anyway. Such was the case in the last game I played and I don't believe I've seen any reason to not explain myself when confronted.

Quote from: Jack A T on May 19, 2014, 07:55:50 pm

Scripten: There is no need to make a list of questions for everyone.  It can be useful, but as long as you're asking good questions, you're starting well.
Regarding your question: It is generally a good idea to ask oneself whether observed actions make sense from the actor as a townie.  Furthermore, a scumtell is more than just a piece of evidence.  It is a topic to ask the actor about.  Questions about odd/scummy-looking actions help gather evidence for/against scumhood, and help players evaluate the scumminess of said actions.

The newbie tendency to screw up should be kept in mind when looking at everything, as a contextual factor when determining whether an action makes sense for town.  It should not overwhelm everything, but it must be considered.

---

On asking questions directed to "Everybody"/"Everyone": This is not the best idea, as people tend to miss these.

That makes sense. I bring this up because the last beginner game was significantly derailed by an argument about the validity of scumtells and motivations for playing the game as we do. (Also, my apologies for the broad question.)

Tn5421 and darkpaladin109: Since you both were in the last beginner's mafia game, which was a sprint, how do you expect this game will differ? How will you be changing your playstyles to adapt to those differences?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day One
Post by: Tiruin on May 19, 2014, 09:53:24 pm

Quote from: Jack A T on May 19, 2014, 06:28:11 pm

Tiruin: You recently participated in a game with this setup, but without the teaching elements: NSBM 4.  What did you learn from that game that you can apply to this game?

NSBM4?
Without the teaching elements? :x
Was I a bad IC then?

PFP examtime soon

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day One
Post by: Jack A T on May 19, 2014, 09:55:06 pm

Tiruin: Not-So-Beginner Mafia 4.  You weren't an IC, because it had no ICs.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day One
Post by: tn5421 on May 19, 2014, 10:42:37 pm

Quote

tn5421: Imagine you're a cop.  What would you consider to be your goal in your night inspects: finding scum or finding town?

I would investigate someone I couldn't get a strong read on one way or another.

Quote

Everybody: Since this is a beginner's game, it's more likely that well-used scumtells will be less effective. What strategies do you think would be best in a situation like this, where players may not know what actions to avoid and which ones to look out for?

I'm going to play normally.  I will take note of people not fully answering questions.

Quote

someone from MafiaScum is probably more knowledgeable than someone from EpicMafia

Thanks for the laugh.

Quote

Tn5421 and darkpaladin109: Since you both were in the last beginner's mafia game, which was a sprint, how do you expect this game will differ? How will you be changing your playstyles to adapt to those differences?

I expect it to take longer and be more of a thinking game than a go-with-your-gut game.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day One
Post by: tn5421 on May 19, 2014, 10:45:04 pm

Quote from: Tiruin on May 19, 2014, 09:53:24 pm

Quote from: Jack A T on May 19, 2014, 06:28:11 pm

Tiruin: You recently participated in a game with this setup, but without the teaching elements: NSBM 4.  What did you learn from that game that you can apply to this game?

NSBM4?
Without the teaching elements? :x
Was I a bad IC then?

PFP examtime soon

Tiruin

Don't dodge the question.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day One
Post by: Tiruin on May 19, 2014, 10:47:04 pm

I didn't even know the question was speaking about Not So Beginner's Mafia 4 >.>
I mean, 'So' didn't register as a possible capital letter!

So what I lear-
...
In truth, my mind is blanked when I read and re-read NSBM4, so I'll be reading it up and getting back to some hands-on experience to jog my memory.

My mind is busy with literature and telling stories at the moment. Worldbuilding and finding out the best way to hang the Count with the use of a portcullis, a matchstick and a pretender. Sorry.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day One
Post by: Jack A T on May 19, 2014, 11:55:15 pm

Tiruin: Do what you need to do, but do remember to eventually answer my question (if that wasn't meant as an answer) and RangerCado's questions (which you haven't mentioned).

Quote from: Tiruin on May 19, 2014, 10:47:04 pm

... finding out the best way to hang the Count with the use of a portcullis, a matchstick and a pretender.

A Bay 12 specialty.

Quote from: tn5421 on May 19, 2014, 10:42:37 pm

Quote

tn5421: Imagine you're a cop.  What would you consider to be your goal in your night inspects: finding scum or finding town?

I would investigate someone I couldn't get a strong read on one way or another.

tn5421: Not exactly what I meant by the question, but okay.  Let's try something similar to my intention, but informative in a different way:
Which would you prefer to find by day 3 as a cop: two townies, or one scum?

Quote from: tn5421 on May 19, 2014, 10:42:37 pm

I'm going to play normally.  I will take note of people not fully answering questions.

Interesting.  Yet you ask no questions yourself.  Why?

A final note: It would be nice if you used the forum's main quote function ("quote" button in the top right corner of each post).  I like quotes that are linked to the posts they're quoted from.  It's much easier for other players to check the context of the quotes, and much easier on players when the thread starts getting long.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day One
Post by: tn5421 on May 20, 2014, 12:03:38 am

I would prefer to find two townies on day 3.  Knowing who is town for sure means you can determine scum by process of elimination.

I'm not a big fan of the barely-game-related questions that get asked at the start of a game.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day One
Post by: Jack A T on May 20, 2014, 12:34:52 am

Quote from: tn5421 on May 20, 2014, 12:03:38 am

I'm not a big fan of the barely-game-related questions that get asked at the start of a game.

tn5421: D'accord.  Honestly, I don't think anyone is much of a fan of them, but they at least get people talking.
However, I would think that, when searching for question-evaders, one would want there to be more questions to evade.

Another topic: what do you think of Tiruin's most recent post?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day One
Post by: tn5421 on May 20, 2014, 12:46:19 am

I think he tried to post while focusing on something else.  I don't really know what else to think about it other than be confused.

I don't mind if he doesn't answer now, as long as he eventually answers (Depending on the actual answer, of course)

How do you feel about my slot, knowing that I've been scum 2 out of 2 completed games on this forum?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day One
Post by: tn5421 on May 20, 2014, 12:48:09 am

Let me revise that:

Jack A T: How do you feel about my slot, knowing that I've been scum 2/2 completed games on this forum?

Sorry for forgetting the Q/A format, I'm used to doing @user: and/or using a post tag to link the post I'm talking about.  Example: @57: or [post]57[/post]

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day One
Post by: Jack A T on May 20, 2014, 12:54:49 am

tn5421: I'm not sure what you mean by "slot" in your question.  Please clarify.

Also, Tiruin is female.  (General advice: if you don't know someone's gender, check their profile.  Most of us have noted our genders in our profiles.)

Quote from: tn5421 on May 20, 2014, 12:48:09 am

Sorry for forgetting the Q/A format, I'm used to doing @user: and/or using a post tag to link the post I'm talking about.  Example: @57: or [post]57[/post]

Ah.  We don't have nearly as simple a way to link directly to posts here, but giving post numbers with links to the posts is a fine alternative to quote-linking (for lack of a better term).

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day One
Post by: tn5421 on May 20, 2014, 01:02:07 am

Jack A T: I'm still not comfortable with posing my questions like this, feels like I'm voting you over and over.
On mafiascum, it isn't rare to have someone replace out.  The following are the 9 slots of this game as of the start of the game:

Quote from: MyOwnWorstEnemy on May 19, 2014, 05:58:21 pm

• darkpaladin109
• borno:
• Fniff:
• Scripten:
• tn5421:
• RangerCado:
• Kansa:
• Jack A T:
• Tiruin:

If someone were to replace me, the slot/role would remain the same, but the player would be different.  It's basically another way to refer to a player, copping out of the complication that replacements cause.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day One
Post by: Jack A T on May 20, 2014, 01:27:00 am

tn5421: Ah, okay.
On question-posing method: If there's another method you'd rather use to show who you're posing questions to that is clear, is noticeable, and doesn't make anyone want to gouge their own eyes out, feel free to use it.

In response to your question: The fact that you've been scum twice before lacks relevance to the question of whether you were given scum now, considering all three games involved independent rolls for roles.  In addition, it is hard to effectively tell how you are as scum from those games, given One Day Mafia's incredible activity and Sprint's... stuff (you didn't seem bad in the latter, though), and I can't do much meta-analysis without both a larger sample and town games to compare them to.

Overall impact of your previous scum games on my feelings about your slot: not much.

Overall feelings about your slot: Not strong in any direction, the game having just started.

---

I'm going to sleep now.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day One
Post by: tn5421 on May 20, 2014, 01:35:12 am

Quote from: Jack A T on May 20, 2014, 01:27:00 am

tn5421: Ah, okay.
On question-posing method: If there's another method you'd rather use to show who you're posing questions to that is clear, is noticeable, and doesn't make anyone want to gouge their own eyes out, feel free to use it.

In response to your question: The fact that you've been scum twice before lacks relevance to the question of whether you were given scum now, considering all three games involved independent rolls for roles.  In addition, it is hard to effectively tell how you are as scum from those games, given One Day Mafia's incredible activity and Sprint's... stuff (you didn't seem bad in the latter, though), and I can't do much meta-analysis without both a larger sample and town games to compare them to.

Overall impact of your previous scum games on my feelings about your slot: not much.

Overall feelings about your slot: Not strong in any direction, the game having just started.

---

I'm going to sleep now.

@Jack A T: Alright, sounds good.  I bolded the parts of the quote that I felt answered my question best.  Check my sig for town games.  I'm about to go to bed, too.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day One
Post by: borno on May 20, 2014, 06:04:03 am

Jack A T:

Quote from: Jack A T on May 19, 2014, 06:28:11 pm

borno: Please summarize your previous Mafia experience, whether on or off this forum.  In addition, what scumtell (aside from lying) do you feel is scummiest in general?

Last game I played was a year ago now. I played a little too lurky I think, and so when the mafia fakeclaimed no-one believed me and I was lynched. In response to your second question, I think that chainsawing is scummiest, as a normal player would have no reason to defend another person so hard. The other ones can sometimes be explained though, and as a plus you may also learn his partner's identity.
To turn this question around, what do you think is the weakest scumtell?
RangerCado:

Quote from: RangerCado on May 19, 2014, 06:41:45 pm

borno: Whats your preferred role as Town and why?

Cop, as having the certainty that someone is scum is a huge advantage.
If you were the jailkeeper and suspected that someone was the cop, would you jail them?
Scripten:

Quote from: Scripten on May 19, 2014, 07:22:00 pm

Everybody: Since this is a beginner's game, it's more likely that well-used scumtells will be less effective. What strategies do you think would be best in a situation like this, where players may not know what actions to avoid and which ones to look out for?

I would chose aggressive tunneling, as newbies are more likely to panic and drop scumtells.
Kansa: If you were a jailkeeper and were to choose between jailing a scummy or coppy player, which one would you pick?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day One
Post by: Kansa on May 20, 2014, 07:07:39 am

Scripten:I am honestly not sure, I would just look for anyone who seems suspicious or over defensive in their actions.

borno: I would choose to jail someone who seems to be a cop over a scummy player, it seems more important to protect the cop as if none of the mafia members have been found yet the night kill would still happen anyway. So it would be better to make sure the person with the important role does not die.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day One
Post by: RangerCado on May 20, 2014, 08:14:45 am

Quote from: Scripten on May 19, 2014, 09:27:16 pm

Quote from: RangerCado on May 19, 2014, 07:44:31 pm

Scripten: I will likely use my usual strategies, but be SLIGHTLY more lenient on my reads. Tells are still tells, and hiding behind the newb screen can only go so far before people don't care anymore and vote you out regardless. Were you planning on hiding behind that screen?

Not at all. I couldn't justify hiding behind total inexperience when I've played a couple of games already, and even if I were new, logically explaining my actions would help the town and thus myself, anyway. Such was the case in the last game I played and I don't believe I've seen any reason to not explain myself when confronted.

Scripten: While explaining to defend yourself, do you think you will end up trying to defend your reasons and actions during confrontation more than scum hunting others?

Quote from: tn5421 on May 19, 2014, 10:45:04 pm

Quote from: Tiruin on May 19, 2014, 09:53:24 pm

Quote from: Jack A T on May 19, 2014, 06:28:11 pm

Tiruin: You recently participated in a game with this setup, but without the teaching elements: NSBM 4.  What did you learn from that game that you can apply to this game?

NSBM4?
Without the teaching elements? :x
Was I a bad IC then?

PFP examtime soon

Tiruin

Don't dodge the question.

tn5421: How is this dodging the question exactly? Shes both trying to confirm a question, and has RL coming in. Can you explain to me how this is a dodge?

Quote from: tn5421 on May 20, 2014, 12:48:09 am

Let me revise that:

Jack A T: How do you feel about my slot, knowing that I've been scum 2/2 completed games on this forum?

Sorry for forgetting the Q/A format, I'm used to doing @user: and/or using a post tag to link the post I'm talking about.  Example: @57: or [post]57[/post]

Just because you've been scum twice in other games, doesn't mean you'll likely be one now. This question doesn't really have much in the way of relavence, even during the RVS stage. Why did you ask this?

Quote from: borno on May 20, 2014, 06:04:03 am

RangerCado:

Quote from: RangerCado on May 19, 2014, 06:41:45 pm

borno: Whats your preferred role as Town and why?

Cop, as having the certainty that someone is scum is a huge advantage.
If you were the jailkeeper and suspected that someone was the cop, would you jail them?

borno: Fair. If it was Night 3, maybe. Night 1 and 2 has the major disadvantage of killing their chances of finding out who the mafia are. I would consider it Night 2 if I knew they were in trouble, but Night 1 has no purpose.

How would you pick your targets for your investigations as a cop?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day One
Post by: Fniff on May 20, 2014, 09:31:45 am

Quote from: Scripten on May 19, 2014, 07:22:00 pm

Everybody: Since this is a beginner's game, it's more likely that well-used scumtells will be less effective. What strategies do you think would be best in a situation like this, where players may not know what actions to avoid and which ones to look out for?

Scumtells are essentially specific social mannerisms that are considered suspicious in the circumstances. People can tell when someone's acting shady, it's a natural human behavior. Since the Mafia are new too, we're on equal ground. I think if the group avoided forming into a mob and used their heads, we wouldn't need to adjust strategies.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day One
Post by: darkpaladin109 on May 20, 2014, 10:32:49 am

Sorry for not answering questions earlier, the game began when I was in bed due to timezones, and I can't write answers and such in school.

Quote from: Jack A T on May 19, 2014, 06:28:11 pm

darkpaladin109: Please summarize your previous Mafia experience, whether on or off this forum.  In addition, which role do you feel would help the town more: the cop or the jailkeeper?

My only mafia experiences are on this forum, but I don't know how to properly summarize it. I'm just bad at summarizing things, that's all. I'm not very good at Mafia due to the how I am as a person and such, though.
I think it could be dependent on the overall skill of the town. If they were unskilled, a cop could help more by finding scum and doing their best to point it out to the rest of the town, while an experienced town could use a jailkeeper more, as they would likely be able to spot scum more easily. I suppose my answer tends more to the overall skill of the scum, though.

Quote from: RangerCado on May 19, 2014, 06:41:45 pm

DarkPaladin: Who of the current players would be your ideal scum buddy?

I don't think I have played here long enough to determine exactly who, but if I had to guess, it might be Tiruin? I've seen that she's pretty good in most of the games I've read, at least.

---

Everyone: Who would be your ideal scum buddy, and why?

---

Sorry, it's the only question I can come up with right now, and I suppose it might help. I'm not very good at coming up with questions, one of the many things that make me bad at Mafia.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day One
Post by: Jack A T on May 20, 2014, 01:11:00 pm

Quote from: borno on May 20, 2014, 06:04:03 am

To turn this question around, what do you think is the weakest scumtell?

borno: "Lying" about prior in-thread events (which tends to just be poor memory, rather than deliberate lies).  Discrepancies in roleclaims tend to be actual lies, but false claims about prior in-thread events tend to be mistakes.

---

Quote from: darkpaladin109 on May 20, 2014, 10:32:49 am

Sorry for not answering questions earlier, the game began when I was in bed due to timezones, and I can't write answers and such in school.

darkpaladin109: There's no need to apologize.  Just try to be active when you can.

Quote from: darkpaladin109 on May 20, 2014, 10:32:49 am

Everyone: Who would be your ideal scum buddy, and why?

Out of the players here, Tiruin.  She's experienced at being scum, and a two-IC scumteam would be amusing.

Quote from: darkpaladin109 on May 20, 2014, 10:32:49 am

I'm not very good at coming up with questions, one of the many things that make me bad at Mafia.

In the RVS phase, it can help to check previous games and use their RVS questions as models (or just outright reuse them).  Beyond RVS, though, a good idea for a simple question is to ask people why they did something you find odd.

---

Quote from: Fniff on May 20, 2014, 09:31:45 am

Scumtells are essentially specific social mannerisms that are considered suspicious in the circumstances. People can tell when someone's acting shady, it's a natural human behavior. Since the Mafia are new too, we're on equal ground. I think if the group avoided forming into a mob and used their heads, we wouldn't need to adjust strategies.

Unvote, vote Fniff: I notice a rather interesting assumption about the scumteam in your answer.  What makes you so sure the Mafia consists of newbies?  Less importantly, what will you do to avoid mob behaviour?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day One
Post by: Fniff on May 20, 2014, 01:53:05 pm

Quote from: Jack A T on May 20, 2014, 01:11:00 pm

Quote from: Fniff on May 20, 2014, 09:31:45 am

Scumtells are essentially specific social mannerisms that are considered suspicious in the circumstances. People can tell when someone's acting shady, it's a natural human behavior. Since the Mafia are new too, we're on equal ground. I think if the group avoided forming into a mob and used their heads, we wouldn't need to adjust strategies.

Unvote, vote Fniff: I notice a rather interesting assumption about the scumteam in your answer.  What makes you so sure the Mafia consists of newbies?  Less importantly, what will you do to avoid mob behaviour?

I'm assuming they are. That would have been a better way of phrasing it. Anyway, this is beginner's mafia and as such, they can't be utterly amazingly experienced. They might know a lot, but they won't be experienced, if you get my drift. As for avoiding mob behavior, I'd avoid anything that lacks more then one piece of evidence, especially if it's circumstantial.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day One
Post by: Kansa on May 20, 2014, 02:05:43 pm

To Darkpaladin109: I would say either Fniff or RangerCado. I have played other games with them so I think we would know enough to work together well.

To tn5421: If you were scum who would you place more importance on getting rid of, the jailkeeper or the cop?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day One
Post by: Jack A T on May 20, 2014, 02:07:35 pm

Quote from: Fniff on May 20, 2014, 01:53:05 pm

I'm assuming they are. That would have been a better way of phrasing it. Anyway, this is beginner's mafia and as such, they can't be utterly amazingly experienced. They might know a lot, but they won't be experienced, if you get my drift. As for avoiding mob behavior, I'd avoid anything that lacks more then one piece of evidence, especially if it's circumstantial.

Fniff:
On mafia experience in the scumteam: Be aware that ICs, who are experienced, could be scum.  We are not above suspicion.

On the mob behaviour bit: How do you intend to ensure that multiple pieces of evidence accumulate against someone?  Do you intend to question people who have one piece of evidence against them, or is avoiding such questioning part of avoiding anything that lacks more than one piece of evidence?
Are you going to depend on others to start cases with multiple pieces of evidence?

(Strength of the evidence, while harder to judge, is better to look at than the number of pieces of evidence, generally.  One really strong piece of evidence is better than three incredibly minor ones, for instance.)

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day One
Post by: darkpaladin109 on May 20, 2014, 04:15:48 pm

I'd like to note that I'l be in bed now and have school tommorow again, so any questions directed at me will have to wait some time to be answered.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - One Spot Left!!
Post by: Silthuri on May 20, 2014, 04:47:39 pm

Votecount:

• darkpaladin109: RangerCado (1)
• borno:
• Fniff: Jack A T (1)
• Scripten:
• tn5421:
• RangerCado:
• Kansa:
• Jack A T:
• Tiruin: tn5421 (1)

Votes to Extend: [0/3]
Votes to Shorten: [0/5]

Day one will end Thursday at 7 pm EST

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day One
Post by: tn5421 on May 20, 2014, 08:07:35 pm

@borno: Wow, no questions to me.  The insult cuts deep.

@Kansa: You do realize jailing the cop means he's basically a Named Town, right?

@RangerCado: The question was "What did you learn from the other game with same setup?"  and the reply was "Was I a bad IC?".  That is the very picture of dodging the question.  I have no idea what PFP exams are so I can't make the call on whether or not its legit, simply assuming it is.

Because it's more relevant to the game than most of the handwave questions being asked currently.

@darkpaladin109: My ideal scumbuddy would be Jack A T or RangerCado.

@Kansa: The Cop, because he can confirm guilty and confirm innocents.  It is a much stronger ability than Jailkeeper when a game runs for a long time, because it can form a gamebreaking strategy.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day One
Post by: tn5421 on May 20, 2014, 08:08:19 pm

@Everyone: How do you feel about our chances of finding and lynching a member of the scum team day one?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day One
Post by: RangerCado on May 20, 2014, 08:33:25 pm

Quote from: darkpaladin109 on May 20, 2014, 10:32:49 am

-snip-

DarkPaladin: Tiruin all the way. Shes a player I can get along with quite easily, and shes a player who I know knows how to seem like a Townie ALL the time. Its nice to have a player who can usually earn others trust on a scum team.

Whats your top 3 scum tells you look for during the RVS stage of the game?

Quote from: tn5421 on May 20, 2014, 08:07:35 pm

@RangerCado: The question was "What did you learn from the other game with same setup?"  and the reply was "Was I a bad IC?".  That is the very picture of dodging the question.  I have no idea what PFP exams are so I can't make the call on whether or not its legit, simply assuming it is.

Because it's more relevant to the game than most of the handwave questions being asked currently.

tn5421: PFP means 'posting from phone'. This usually means that the post was either rushed, not formatted well, or that they don't have time for full post or answer. Exams means she has exams, as is normal during May and June.

Quote from: tn5421 on May 20, 2014, 08:08:19 pm

@Everyone: How do you feel about our chances of finding and lynching a member of the scum team day one?

This question shows up a lot, and the answer is always relative to the player. Personally? I don't believe its THAT likely, but you never know what will come up. An early slip-up could occur and we could get a scum player out day 1. Its really too early to tell.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day One
Post by: tn5421 on May 20, 2014, 09:17:26 pm

@RangerCado: I knew I had seen that acronym before. 

I feel our chances are alright (roughly 1/4 for town).

@ the question in your customtext: You're adorable because of how cute your avatar is.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day One
Post by: Jack A T on May 20, 2014, 11:15:13 pm

Quote from: tn5421 on May 20, 2014, 08:08:19 pm

@Everyone: How do you feel about our chances of finding and lynching a member of the scum team day one?

tn5421: Not bad.  While Day 1 is not known for scum lynches, we've got a reasonable (for day 1) chance if we are active.  If we fail, well, we've got two survivable mislynches.

Quote from: tn5421 on May 20, 2014, 08:07:35 pm

@RangerCado: The question was "What did you learn from the other game with same setup?"  and the reply was "Was I a bad IC?".  That is the very picture of dodging the question.  I have no idea what PFP exams are so I can't make the call on whether or not its legit, simply assuming it is.

Fascinating.  You focus so much on one line of the reply, accusing Tiruin of active question evasion based on it.  What did/do you think about the rest of the reply?  What did Tiruin's first two lines indicate to you?
They certainly indicated confusion about the question to me.

Quote from: tn5421 on May 20, 2014, 08:07:35 pm

@darkpaladin109: My ideal scumbuddy would be Jack A T or RangerCado.

Why?

Tiruin: I'd love to see you post some content soon.  Thoughts on the game so far?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day One
Post by: Jack A T on May 21, 2014, 09:36:08 am

Another thing:

Be bold.  When you see something you think is suspicious/scummy, take action.  Question.  Vote, whether to lynch or just to apply pressure.  If you don't know why someone took an action they took, ask.  Ask people lots of questions about their actions.  Don't hold back.  Don't let nervousness prevent you from taking action.

Use your votes.  Use them to apply pressure in your investigations.  Use them to kill off the most suspicious players.  Use them to show your suspicions.

Be active.  When you can contribute, try to contribute.  Low activity kills games, especially BMs.

Players have done stuff today (not much, but still), and there is material to look at.  For that matter, you can look at players who haven't acted, whether through not posting or through not doing anything when they post.

---

Let's get this game moving a bit.
Everyone (yes, I know I recommended against posing questions like this, but fuck it): Look through the thread.  Does anyone look suspicious?  Who?  Why?
borno: You mentioned in your first (and only) post that you felt you had been a bit too lurky in your last game.  Are you going to do anything about that, or just keep on doing little?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day One
Post by: tn5421 on May 21, 2014, 11:44:43 am

Quote from: Jack A T on May 21, 2014, 09:36:08 am

Be bold.  When you see something you think is suspicious/scummy, take action.  Question.  Vote, whether to lynch or just to apply pressure.  If you don't know why someone took an action they took, ask.  Ask people lots of questions about their actions.  Don't hold back.  Don't let nervousness prevent you from taking action.

Use your votes.  Use them to apply pressure in your investigations.  Use them to kill off the most suspicious players.  Use them to show your suspicions.

Be active.  When you can contribute, try to contribute.  Low activity kills games, especially BMs.

Players have done stuff today (not much, but still), and there is material to look at.  For that matter, you can look at players who haven't acted, whether through not posting or through not doing anything when they post.

---

Let's get this game moving a bit.
Everyone (yes, I know I recommended against posing questions like this, but fuck it): Look through the thread.  Does anyone look suspicious?  Who?  Why?
borno: You mentioned in your first (and only) post that you felt you had been a bit too lurky in your last game.  Are you going to do anything about that, or just keep on doing little?

Other than me still waiting on an answer from Tiruin, nothing has struck me as too odd.  At least, not yet.  Then again my early game skills aren't the best.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day One
Post by: Jack A T on May 21, 2014, 12:23:31 pm

tn5421: Okay.  You missed a few questions (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=138613.msg5297809#msg5297809) (look after the second and third quotes).

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day One
Post by: tn5421 on May 21, 2014, 01:07:56 pm

@Jack A T: My bad, I assumed the rest wasn't addressed to me for some reason.

point 2: The fact of the matter is we are still waiting on an answer from him, and I won't rest until I get it.

point 3: From what I've read from you, I feel that we would make an effective scumteam.  RangerCado seems like he/she can keep calm under pressure, which is a valuable trait in a scumbuddy.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day One
Post by: tn5421 on May 21, 2014, 01:08:56 pm

Oh, and on a side note:

@Jack A T: I would be highly suspicious of reply #80 if you weren't an IC.  Being super bold just makes you the primary target for a nightkill.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day One
Post by: Jack A T on May 21, 2014, 01:58:43 pm

Quote from: tn5421 on May 21, 2014, 01:08:56 pm

@Jack A T: I would be highly suspicious of reply #80 if you weren't an IC.  Being super bold just makes you the primary target for a nightkill.

tn5421: The "be bold"-type advice (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=130600.msg4635411#msg4635411) is standard (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=117173.msg3694301#msg3694301) IC advice (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=105022.msg3114651#msg3114651).  The goal is to make an environment that is harmful to scum.

When most of the town is timid, and unwilling to take action, scum blends in most easily by not taking action.  This leads to a game where little evidence is generated, leaving a situation where the scum is pretty safe.

When most of the town is bold, and takes action, scum has to take action to blend in.  That leaves a trail of actions to analyze and to question them about, in a game full of people trying hard to analyze actions and question people.  Positions taken can be questioned, arguments can be examined, and effective scumhunting is easier.

Yes, scum tends to kill bold people.  There's a reason why they do so.

---

Quote from: tn5421 on May 21, 2014, 01:07:56 pm

point 2: The fact of the matter is we are still waiting on an answer from him, and I won't rest until I get it.

tn5421 again: I know, but this doesn't answer my questions.

---

Rereading the rules on prods, I noticed that prod requests can be done after 24 hours of inactivity.  Let's prod.
MyOwnWorstEnemy: Prod borno, Fniff, Kansa, Scripten, and Tiruin, please.  All have hit the 24+ hour inactivity mark.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day One
Post by: Fniff on May 21, 2014, 01:59:18 pm

Oh hey, I'm here, don't worry.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day One
Post by: Jack A T on May 21, 2014, 02:01:06 pm

Quote from: Fniff on May 21, 2014, 01:59:18 pm

Oh hey, I'm here, don't worry.

Fniff: Great!  Would you be so kind as to answer my questions (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=138613.msg5296090#msg5296090)?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day One
Post by: Kansa on May 21, 2014, 02:04:45 pm

tn5421: I am not entirely sure what you mean by this, if you mean they would be automatically confirmed town by my actions then that is not the case. I would simply make a judgement with the information in the thread provided and I might be wrong in my assumption. Even if it did though it would still be useful to protect the cop from the mafia

I am not sure we will find someone on the first day, we could possibly but I do not think it is likely.

Jack A T: I am not sure who looks suspicious yet, mostly everyone has been acting ok for me.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day One
Post by: Fniff on May 21, 2014, 02:10:21 pm

Quote from: Jack A T on May 21, 2014, 02:01:06 pm

Quote from: Fniff on May 21, 2014, 01:59:18 pm

Oh hey, I'm here, don't worry.

Fniff: Great!  Would you be so kind as to answer my questions (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=138613.msg5296090#msg5296090)?

Certainly.

Quote from: Jack A T on May 20, 2014, 02:07:35 pm

Fniff:
On mafia experience in the scumteam: Be aware that ICs, who are experienced, could be scum.  We are not above suspicion.

On the mob behaviour bit: How do you intend to ensure that multiple pieces of evidence accumulate against someone?  Do you intend to question people who have one piece of evidence against them, or is avoiding such questioning part of avoiding anything that lacks more than one piece of evidence?
Are you going to depend on others to start cases with multiple pieces of evidence?

Ah, I was thinking that ICs were more "independent observer" then actual players. My bad. Anyway, I'll keep an eye on you lot.

As for mob behavior, I was thinking that grilling the accusing player would be a good start. If their argument still stands up to multiple questions in various different areas, then I'll give it the benefit of the doubt. If it doesn't, then I won't agree with it and encourage others to follow along. I imagine such questions would entail things such as asking how long they've held the suspicion and if they've had it for long why they only chose to reveal it now, but that is speculation and this would be a case-by-case thing. Multiple questions imply multiple evidence, and while having one strong piece of evidence is great having some other evidence to back it up helps it's case. I wouldn't trust a collection of weak evidence, but I wouldn't feel comfortable basing my vote on just one piece of evidence, however strong it was. Unless it was something obvious like "I'm a cop and *user* is actually mafia", but even then it'd have to have the accompanying evidence that the player claiming is actually a cop.

Quote from: Jack A T on May 21, 2014, 09:36:08 am

Everyone (yes, I know I recommended against posing questions like this, but fuck it): Look through the thread.  Does anyone look suspicious?  Who?  Why?

I think it may be too early in the game to tell. I've give the thread a look through.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day One
Post by: RangerCado on May 21, 2014, 02:14:29 pm

Quote from: tn5421 on May 21, 2014, 01:08:56 pm

Oh, and on a side note:

@Jack A T: I would be highly suspicious of reply #80 if you weren't an IC.  Being super bold just makes you the primary target for a nightkill.

tn5421: So what? Unless your the Jailer or the Cop, theres literally no reason to not be bold and risk your neck to dig for information. A lot of players, myself included depending on the game, get very attached to trying to keep themselves alive by not trying to be bold, or not taking some courses of action.

You also seem to be taking a very relaxed approach right now, answering questions and waiting on someone, but not spending your time on other targets. Do you have someone you'd like to question? Or just give questions to your questioners.

Quote from: Fniff on May 21, 2014, 01:59:18 pm

Oh hey, I'm here, don't worry.

Fniff: ...Yes, now why don't you go answer the questions posed to you, as well as do a bit of your own hunting? Saying your here but doing nothing else is just being lazy, or active-lurking.

Quote from: Kansa on May 21, 2014, 02:04:45 pm

Jack A T: I am not sure who looks suspicious yet, mostly everyone has been acting ok for me.

Kansa: In this situation, why not pick a couple people and start questioning them instead of sitting on the side lines? Even when you have nothing to work with, its never a good idea to sit there not hunting. You also said mostly. So there is someone your slightly suspicious of? If so, press them!

---

Fniff: No questions? Even if your going on a dig through the thread, you should still try to question someone for more information today.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day One
Post by: Kansa on May 21, 2014, 02:49:04 pm

To Rangercado: I'm not really sure of the best questions to ask, I'll give it a try though. I don't have any suspicions though, the mostly was just my style of typing.

To Scripten: Who do you believe would be the greatest threat if they were scum?

To borno: Would you ever claim you were a cop if you weren't if you thought it would help catch the scum?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day One
Post by: Jack A T on May 21, 2014, 03:29:14 pm

DO NOT EDIT IN MAFIA

Quote from: Kansa on May 21, 2014, 02:49:04 pm

To Rangercado: I'm not really sure of the best questions to ask, I'll give it a try though.

Kansa: A good idea, when you see behaviour you find suspicious or want more information on, is to ask whoever did it for their reasons for doing it.  Try to come up with other questions as well when scumhunting, but the basic "why?" is usually helpful.

Quote from: Kansa on May 21, 2014, 02:49:04 pm

To borno: Would you ever claim you were a cop if you weren't if you thought it would help catch the scum?

I'm just going to interrupt this question right now, for ICing reasons.  Don't.  Just don't.

---

RangerCado: You have indicated that you suspect tn5421, yet you keep your vote on darkpaladin.  Said vote was an RVS vote, and you have not indicated that you suspect darkpaladin.

Would you be so kind as to tell us why you are so hesitant to vote for your suspect, especially when we're about 26 hours away from the end of the day (if there is no extension)?  Why do you prefer keeping an old, reasonless vote?

---

Speaking of the end of the day, extend.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day One
Post by: Kansa on May 21, 2014, 03:30:45 pm

Jack A T: Ok sorry

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day One
Post by: RangerCado on May 21, 2014, 03:43:01 pm

Jack: I'm hoping the vote will motivate darkpaladin to post a little more before normal day end. tn5421 hasn't done enough for me to believe it would help more then what I'm hoping my vote currently is doing. Do not mistake this for hesitation. A vote holds pressure, just as an FOS brings something to attention. Everything in this game takes time, and I plan to work through things to obtain the most information possible. I haven't played a game with most of these players, yourself included, so I have to 'test the waters' so to speak on most things I attempt.

EXTEND

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day One
Post by: Jack A T on May 21, 2014, 03:48:39 pm

RangerCado: Acceptable.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day One
Post by: Tiruin on May 21, 2014, 04:02:54 pm

extend

sorry rl happened

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day One
Post by: darkpaladin109 on May 21, 2014, 04:12:03 pm

RangerCado: Fair enough. I don't really have anything to say, beyond answering some questions, though.

Quote from: tn5421 on May 20, 2014, 08:08:19 pm

@Everyone: How do you feel about our chances of finding and lynching a member of the scum team day one?

I suppose our chances are slim, though I could be wrong.

Quote from: Jack A T on May 21, 2014, 09:36:08 am

Everyone (yes, I know I recommended against posing questions like this, but fuck it): Look through the thread.  Does anyone look suspicious?  Who?  Why?

Borno could look suspicious due to not posting much, but he did give a semblance of reason. Don't have any reads right now, I'l reread the thread tommorow.
Extend, if there are any more necesarry for it to suceed.

---

Gonna have to go to bed now.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day One
Post by: borno on May 21, 2014, 04:37:43 pm

tn5421:

Quote from: tn5421 on May 20, 2014, 08:07:35 pm

@borno: Wow, no questions to me.  The insult cuts deep.

Sorry, friend.
It is lylo, and the votes are tied. One player is slightly scummy and lurks and the other is more scummy but is active. Who do you choose to lynch?

Quote from: tn5421 on May 20, 2014, 08:08:19 pm

@Everyone: How do you feel about our chances of finding and lynching a member of the scum team day one?

I don't think that it is awfully likely, due to d1 lynches being more about information, but it may well happen.
Jack A T:

Quote from: Jack A T on May 21, 2014, 09:36:08 am

Everyone (yes, I know I recommended against posing questions like this, but fuck it): Look through the thread.  Does anyone look suspicious?  Who?  Why?
borno: You mentioned in your first (and only) post that you felt you had been a bit too lurky in your last game.  Are you going to do anything about that, or just keep on doing little?

I'll look through the thread once I get home from school in about nine hours. On your second question, I do hope to be more active in this game, but due to seemingly being in a different time zone to everyone else it's hard to have a proper conversation  :(

Extend, will post more when I get home at the aforementioned time.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day One
Post by: borno on May 21, 2014, 04:43:50 pm

Edit: Just realised I'm coming home late today  ::) Make that 10 hours.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - One Spot Left!!
Post by: Silthuri on May 21, 2014, 04:45:17 pm

Votecount:

• darkpaladin109: RangerCado (1)
• borno:
• Fniff: Jack A T (1)
• Scripten:
• tn5421:
• RangerCado:
• Kansa:
• Jack A T:
• Tiruin: tn5421 (1)

Votes to Extend: [0/3]
Votes to Shorten: [0/5]

Day has been Extended! Day ends Monday at 7 pm EST

Kansa: Editing is prohibited. This is your only warning. The next time you edit a post, you will be modkilled.

borno has been prodded and has ninja'd me. :P

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day One
Post by: tn5421 on May 21, 2014, 05:18:38 pm

@Jack A T, #85: That's why I included the qualifier "If you weren't an IC".
The question about how his experiences with the setup shape his views on how this game will play out has not been answered and I will not let go until it is.

@Kansa, #88: I'm not sure what this is a reply to, assuming you mean 'is anyone suspicious' but parts of your reply don't fit that line.

@Fniff, #89: The Scum IC is the independant observer, the other ICs are actual players.

@RangerCado, #90: What is the significance of Blue-Bolding my name?  I am awaiting a reply from Tiruin in regards to reply #53 [http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=138613.msg5294398#msg5294398].  Reply #54 does not adequately explain anything except for Tiruin being busy IRL.  People have commented on my tendency to take my time with things.  I don't really understand that, but I don't dive in head first unless I'm fairly sure I can do something productive, as I'm an easy mislynch when I get aggressive.

@Kansa, #91: ALL OF MY FoS FOR POST EDIT[/rvs]

@Jack A T, #92: Does blue bold indicate a FoS?

@RangerCado, #94: Except I don't feel pressured, at all.  I'm not doing anything wrong, you are suspecting me based on my playstyle only.

@Tiruin, #96: I don't mind waiting but I still want my question answered when RL isn't eating your time.

@borno, #98: No.  No.  We are NOT in lylo.  There are 2 scum / 7 town as per the setup.  I do not like this post at all.

Vote: borno

But please tell us how we are in LYLO on day one.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day One
Post by: Kansa on May 21, 2014, 05:48:55 pm

I'm sorry for the edit, I was simply trying to make one of my questions more clear and I forgot about the rule. My bad.

To tn5421: I'm sorry for not making it more clear, my first paragraph was about you saying. You do realize jailing the cop means he's basically a Named Town, right?

The second paragraph was referring to the suspicion thing

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day One
Post by: Jack A T on May 21, 2014, 05:50:50 pm

Quote from: tn5421 on May 21, 2014, 01:08:56 pm

@Jack A T: I would be highly suspicious of reply #80 if you weren't an IC.  Being super bold just makes you the primary target for a nightkill.

Unvote, vote tn5421.  The more I think about this post, the more off-putting I find it.  You claim that advice to be bold would be suspicious if I weren't an IC because bold players tend to be the targets of nightkills.  That is to say, because scum tends to dislike bold players enough to want to get rid of them.

Why prioritize the scum's feelings about townies over the town's investigation of scum?

Quote from: tn5421 on May 21, 2014, 05:18:38 pm

The question about how his experiences with the setup shape his views on how this game will play out has not been answered and I will not let go until it is.

First, Tiruin is still female.
Second, this is still not an answer to either of my questions.  You accused Tiruin of dodging a question (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=138613.msg5294398#msg5294398).  When questioned (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=138613.msg5295298#msg5295298) about your vote, you responded (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=138613.msg5297276#msg5297276) by focusing on one line of Tiruin's post.  I asked two questions:

Quote from: Jack A T on May 20, 2014, 11:15:13 pm

What did/do you think about the rest of the reply?  What did Tiruin's first two lines indicate to you?

Not very complicated questions.  These two are focused on the context of the line you justified your initial accusation with.

Twice now you have responded to these questions about context by saying you really, really want to see an answer from Tiruin, as if that answers these questions.

So.  Please answer the questions I asked, preferably with something that actually answers my questions.  Thank you. 

Quote from: tn5421 on May 21, 2014, 05:18:38 pm

@borno, #98: No.  No.  We are NOT in lylo.  There are 2 scum / 7 town as per the setup.  I do not like this post at all.
Vote: borno
But please tell us how we are in LYLO on day one.

... that's a hypothetical question.  Even if it was not, how exactly would confusion about LYLO in day 1, especially in a Beginner's Mafia, be scummy?

---

Blue text is generally used to indicate a FoS, yes.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day One
Post by: tn5421 on May 21, 2014, 07:22:07 pm

@Jack A T: Because getting nightkilled or mislynched day 1 gets boring really fast when it happens to you multiple times.

"I think she is busy IRL" answers both questions.

Because its right there in the rules, free for everyone to read, maybe?

You go right ahead and lynch me day one, it doesn't make a bit of difference to me.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day One
Post by: Scripten on May 21, 2014, 11:08:45 pm

Quote from: Kansa on May 21, 2014, 02:49:04 pm

To Scripten: Who do you believe would be the greatest threat if they were scum?

Almost certainly the ICs. They have more experience with the game and would not necessarily be as intimidated by other ICs. I feel like the power roles would be at more risk of night kills, since we're all just as likely to have them, but ICs are at more risk to non-IC scum.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day One
Post by: borno on May 22, 2014, 03:52:13 am

tn5421:
Reread the thread, and tn5421 seems to be getting scummier by the second.

Quote from: tn5421 on May 19, 2014, 10:42:37 pm

Quote

tn5421: Imagine you're a cop.  What would you consider to be your goal in your night inspects: finding scum or finding town?

I would investigate someone I couldn't get a strong read on one way or another.

Quote

Everybody: Since this is a beginner's game, it's more likely that well-used scumtells will be less effective. What strategies do you think would be best in a situation like this, where players may not know what actions to avoid and which ones to look out for?

I'm going to play normally.  I will take note of people not fully answering questions.

Quote

someone from MafiaScum is probably more knowledgeable than someone from EpicMafia

Thanks for the laugh.

Quote

Tn5421 and darkpaladin109: Since you both were in the last beginner's mafia game, which was a sprint, how do you expect this game will differ? How will you be changing your playstyles to adapt to those differences?

I expect it to take longer and be more of a thinking game than a go-with-your-gut game.

First off, his first post. He doesn't ask any questions, as per normal first post on these forums. He follows it up with a vote against Tiruin for dodging the question, despite how she PFP'd. I guess I can understand not knowing the abbreviations and such as this is a whole new forum, but if there was an abbreviation I didn't understand there would be no reason not to check the first post-which has a whole spoiler about it. I guess the not asking game-related questions thing is fine too, as they don't really do that at mafia scum either. Moving on.

Quote from: tn5421 on May 21, 2014, 01:08:56 pm

Oh, and on a side note:

@Jack A T: I would be highly suspicious of reply #80 if you weren't an IC.  Being super bold just makes you the primary target for a nightkill.

(Which was in regards to this post)

Quote from: Jack A T on May 21, 2014, 09:36:08 am

Another thing:

Be bold.  When you see something you think is suspicious/scummy, take action.  Question.  Vote, whether to lynch or just to apply pressure.  If you don't know why someone took an action they took, ask.  Ask people lots of questions about their actions.  Don't hold back.  Don't let nervousness prevent you from taking action.

Use your votes.  Use them to apply pressure in your investigations.  Use them to kill off the most suspicious players.  Use them to show your suspicions.

Be active.  When you can contribute, try to contribute.  Low activity kills games, especially BMs.

Players have done stuff today (not much, but still), and there is material to look at.  For that matter, you can look at players who haven't acted, whether through not posting or through not doing anything when they post.

He says that he would be suspicious of this post if it were not made by an IC, yet there is no reason for this suspicion. Being active & bold is the best thing to do in mafia, and saying that you should be those things is not scummy at all. This is because if he was scum, then telling people to do something that would make him want to kill him and waste a NK just doesn't make sense. Oh well, this doesn't seem to be anything to warrant a vote by itself though.

Quote from: tn5421 on May 21, 2014, 05:18:38 pm

@Jack A T, #85: That's why I included the qualifier "If you weren't an IC".
The question about how his experiences with the setup shape his views on how this game will play out has not been answered and I will not let go until it is.

@Kansa, #88: I'm not sure what this is a reply to, assuming you mean 'is anyone suspicious' but parts of your reply don't fit that line.

@Fniff, #89: The Scum IC is the independant observer, the other ICs are actual players.

@RangerCado, #90: What is the significance of Blue-Bolding my name?  I am awaiting a reply from Tiruin in regards to reply #53 [http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=138613.msg5294398#msg5294398].  Reply #54 does not adequately explain anything except for Tiruin being busy IRL.  People have commented on my tendency to take my time with things.  I don't really understand that, but I don't dive in head first unless I'm fairly sure I can do something productive, as I'm an easy mislynch when I get aggressive.

@Kansa, #91: ALL OF MY FoS FOR POST EDIT[/rvs]

@Jack A T, #92: Does blue bold indicate a FoS?

@RangerCado, #94: Except I don't feel pressured, at all.  I'm not doing anything wrong, you are suspecting me based on my playstyle only.

@Tiruin, #96: I don't mind waiting but I still want my question answered when RL isn't eating your time.

@borno, #98: No.  No.  We are NOT in lylo.  There are 2 scum / 7 town as per the setup.  I do not like this post at all.

Vote: borno

But please tell us how we are in LYLO on day one.

However, this, in conjunction with the other random needlessly aggressive posts he has been making is. He votes me for asking a hypothetical question. I honestly am bamboozled, and he seems to make no effort in explaining it whatsoever when it is pointed out by Jack A T, instead making a pathetic 'Yeah, lynch me, I don't really care, nor will I make any defense whatsoever. I won't try to stay alive when I can just prove you wrong when I'm dead!', which no good townie would. So far, almost all of his posts have just been random, completely unfounded aggressive outbursts which serve to do nothing other than stir up suspicions between townies, and for that he gets my vote.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day One
Post by: RangerCado on May 22, 2014, 09:40:56 am

Quote from: tn5421 on May 21, 2014, 05:18:38 pm

@RangerCado, #90: What is the significance of Blue-Bolding my name?  I am awaiting a reply from Tiruin in regards to reply #53 [http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=138613.msg5294398#msg5294398].  Reply #54 does not adequately explain anything except for Tiruin being busy IRL.  People have commented on my tendency to take my time with things.  I don't really understand that, but I don't dive in head first unless I'm fairly sure I can do something productive, as I'm an easy mislynch when I get aggressive.

@RangerCado, #94: Except I don't feel pressured, at all.  I'm not doing anything wrong, you are suspecting me based on my playstyle only.

tn5421: Blue text means Finger of Suspicion. This implies that you are acting suspicious, but I either don't think its worth a vote yet, or that I wanted to keep my vote where it was.

And its more that your giving me a bad vibe with how your phrasing your posts. Your playstyle doesn't help much though as it appears to be a lot more towards playing cautiously, which isn't that good of a style. Your not helping the town, and voted Borno with no questions or good reasons I can find.

Quote from: tn5421 on May 21, 2014, 07:22:07 pm

@Jack A T: Because getting nightkilled or mislynched day 1 gets boring really fast when it happens to you multiple times.

"I think she is busy IRL" answers both questions.

Because its right there in the rules, free for everyone to read, maybe?

You go right ahead and lynch me day one, it doesn't make a bit of difference to me.

...REALLY!? Town shouldn't try to hard to keep themselves, but this is just... WHY!? Vote tn5421.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day One
Post by: Jack A T on May 22, 2014, 02:00:20 pm

Scripten: It is nice to see you pop up.  It is not nearly as nice to see you sit back and do nothing.  Is there anyone you suspect of being scum?  Why?  Why are you doing nothing to catch scum?
Fniff: So, how's that readthrough going?

Quote from: RangerCado on May 22, 2014, 09:40:56 am

And its more that your giving me a bad vibe with how your phrasing your posts.

RangerCado: Can you describe this in more detail?  What is it about the phrasing that gives you a bad vibe?

Spoiler: tn5421 stuff (click to show/hide)

Quote from: tn5421 on May 21, 2014, 07:22:07 pm

@Jack A T: Because getting nightkilled or mislynched day 1 gets boring really fast when it happens to you multiple times.

...so?  Where's the scumminess in giving mass advice to be bold and take action to hunt scum?
(Are you speaking from personal experience here?)

Quote from: tn5421 on May 21, 2014, 07:22:07 pm

"I think she is busy IRL" answers both questions.

Was this what you thought about the lines I asked about when you voted Tiruin?  If not, what did you think?

Quote from: tn5421 on May 21, 2014, 07:22:07 pm

Because its right there in the rules, free for everyone to read, maybe?

...so?  Where's the scumminess?  Why would scum be more likely than town to say incorrect things about LYLO day 1 in a BM?

---

Quote from: tn5421 on May 21, 2014, 07:22:07 pm

You go right ahead and lynch me day one, it doesn't make a bit of difference to me.

Don't say things like this.  It doesn't help you win, whether you're town or scum.  In fact, it tends to make you look worse.

A better defense strategy is to respond to the attacks against you while actively scumhunting.

---

Borno: When quoting, try to cut the posts down to the parts you care about.  This enhances readability quite a bit.  For instance, that last quote could have been cut down to just the part about you.  Also, regarding your PFP point, people often forget/don't notice the abbreviation spoiler.  It happens.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day One
Post by: Jack A T on May 22, 2014, 02:01:55 pm

Oh, and Kansa: Any thoughts now?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day One
Post by: Kansa on May 22, 2014, 02:11:06 pm

Well tn5421 is seeming a bit more suspicious to me now, I don't really think his lack of defence is necessarily a point in favour of him being mafia as there are other explanations for this. His accusations of others however is suspicious in my eyes, as none of the evidence he has used to do this points to those people actually being mafia.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day One
Post by: Jack A T on May 22, 2014, 02:18:01 pm

Kansa: Alright.  How about his attackers?  Any thoughts on us?  On other players?  Is there anything you want more information from him on?  From anyone else?  Are you willing to vote for your suspect?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day One
Post by: Kansa on May 22, 2014, 02:32:59 pm

To tn4521: The main thing I would like to know is why a mistake in the current situation of the game such as LYLO makes someone scummy? We all know the current set up of the game as it was detailed in the first post, it is a mistake anyone could have made not just a mafia member.

To Jack A T:I would like to give him one last chance to defend himself before I vote for him, just to see if he can give one rather than just not trying.

It's hard to read everyone else at the moment really, I don't think anyone else has let anything slip. The only thing I could say as doubt is that people were quick to go on tn4521 but I would be guilty of that myself as well and all the arguments against him seem fair in my eyes.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day One
Post by: tn5421 on May 22, 2014, 03:30:12 pm

@borno, #106: One long big pseudo-justification for your omgus.  You must be so proud.

@RangerCado: But can you deny that stuff is getting done?

@All: You bitch about me playing cautiously, then immediately jump on my wagon when I start to make aggressive posts.
Fuck.  You.

@Kansa: He was attempting to panic the townsfolk, which is an action that primarily advances the scum wincon.  I don't see the need to defend myself at this point in the game, as the people that are voting me are doing so for mainly nonsensical reasons.  Except for RangerCado, I think.

The reality is that if you're stupid enough to lynch me, you deserve to lose my support anyway.

That is a perfectly acceptable situation for me anyway, because it means I can avoid a wall-war with people that are just going to throw the game anyway.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day One
Post by: Kansa on May 22, 2014, 03:38:11 pm

To tn5421: That makes more sense to me now, thank you for the answer.

To borno: Why did you claim it was lylo?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day One
Post by: Kansa on May 22, 2014, 03:53:02 pm

To Borno: Scratch that last question, on rereading it I realise that it was just a question about what tn5421 would do if it was LYLO. You never actually claimed it was LYLO in that post in the first place.

To tn5421: This means that suspicion of borno is completely out of place in the first place, it was not a scare tactic simply a question about what you would do if we were in that situation

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day One
Post by: Jack A T on May 22, 2014, 04:23:21 pm

tn5421: There's a reason why I asked you the questions I did in the spoiler: to gain evidence.  Not specifically evidence against you, but evidence in general.  I can see quite a bit of potential exculpatory evidence coming out of some of those questions, just as I can see potential incriminating evidence coming out of them.

Refusing to answer them in favour of spewing venom at your attackers will not help you.  So, even if only for your own sake, would you be so kind as to answer the questions directed to you?

Quote from: tn5421 on May 22, 2014, 03:30:12 pm

@All: You bitch about me playing cautiously, then immediately jump on my wagon when I start to make aggressive posts.
Fuck.  You.

This is likely to be because your case on borno, while aggressive, is shit.  And, instead of accepting what everyone else has pointed out (that borno's question was a hypothetical question), you're flailing at those who attack you.

Advice: Relax a bit.  Have a cup of tea or coffee or whatever drink you like when relaxing.  Then, come back and reevaluate what's been going on.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day One
Post by: borno on May 22, 2014, 04:28:56 pm

Jack A T:

Quote from: Jack A T on May 22, 2014, 02:00:20 pm

Borno: When quoting, try to cut the posts down to the parts you care about.  This enhances readability quite a bit.  For instance, that last quote could have been cut down to just the part about you.  Also, regarding your PFP point, people often forget/don't notice the abbreviation spoiler.  It happens.

Right, I'll keep that in mind next time. And in regards to the PFP thing, I guess that is right. However, I still have two strong points telling me that he is scum.
tn5421:
Where to even begin on your post.

Quote from: tn5421 on May 22, 2014, 03:30:12 pm

@borno, #106: One long big pseudo-justification for your omgus.  You must be so proud.

For one, having any sort of justification for a vote makes it not an OMGUS. An OMGUS is when you vote someone for the sole reason that they voted you, which you would realise if you properly read my post. You claim that it is merely a pseudo-justification, yet you do nothing at all to back up your claim? Are you even trying anymore? Make a real post against me!

Quote from: tn5421 on May 22, 2014, 03:30:12 pm

@All: You bitch about me playing cautiously, then immediately jump on my wagon when I start to make aggressive posts.
Fuck.  You.

For one, it is not a wagon if there's only three people voting you currently. And I'm sorry, you're not playing aggressively. You're just trying to stir up as much trouble between the townies that you can.

Quote from: tn5421 on May 22, 2014, 03:30:12 pm

@Kansa: He was attempting to panic the townsfolk, which is an action that primarily advances the scum wincon.  I don't see the need to defend myself at this point in the game, as the people that are voting me are doing so for mainly nonsensical reasons.  Except for RangerCado, I think.

What? I was never trying to panic the townsfolk; it was a hypothetical question! Really, I do see a need to defend yourself. You are acting incredibly scummy, and every post you refuse to make a defense just makes you even more. Please state why Jack A T and I have nonsensical questions, whereas RangerCado does when he just restates one of the points I made. Honestly, when you flip scum RangerCado's going to need some investigating.

Quote from: tn5421 on May 22, 2014, 03:30:12 pm

The reality is that if you're stupid enough to lynch me, you deserve to lose my support anyway.

That is a perfectly acceptable situation for me anyway, because it means I can avoid a wall-war with people that are just going to throw the game anyway.

...I have nothing to say. You realise that you are the one who is throwing the game when you refuse to defend yourself? Honestly, I don't know who you're trying to persuade by calling the people voting for you dumb instead of actually making some points. I honestly just don't understand your logic.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day One
Post by: tn5421 on May 22, 2014, 07:03:05 pm

@Jack A T: Please show where I have refused to answer a question, and I'll show you how to buy seafront property in Kansas.

@borno: pseudo = false, but thanks for trying

Quote from: borno on May 21, 2014, 04:37:43 pm

tn5421:

Quote from: tn5421 on May 20, 2014, 08:07:35 pm

@borno: Wow, no questions to me.  The insult cuts deep.

Sorry, friend.
It is lylo, and the votes are tied. One player is slightly scummy and lurks and the other is more scummy but is active. Who do you choose to lynch?

Please tell me ALL ABOUT how its a question.  I will redirect you to the seafront property in Kansas.

We both know I'm conftown, since your role pm told you who your scumbuddy was, I don't understand why you think you can keep this pretence of legitimacy up.

Nice twisting my words, by the way.  I firmly stated my desire to not play with idiots, because it's not fun in the slightest.

As to why I don't need to defend myself; all you're going to do is twist anything I could possibly say until its barely recognizable anymore, so why should I feed the troll?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day One
Post by: tn5421 on May 22, 2014, 07:03:58 pm

Summary: I've caught you in a lie.  Please lie more to cover up your initial lie.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day One
Post by: Kansa on May 22, 2014, 07:06:56 pm

To tn5421: I can tell you pretty easily how it is a question, the sorry friend is about not asking you a question in the first place as you commented on it.

The LYLO bit is not a separate comment from the rest of the line it is on, it is part of the question. Saying that if you were in a lylo situation would you vote for a scummy lurker player or a scummy active player.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day One
Post by: tn5421 on May 22, 2014, 07:12:09 pm

Quote

It is lylo, and the votes are tied.

is not a question.  He keeps trying to frame it as a question because he knows I caught him out on a lie and is trying to cover it up by attacking me.  Granted, I made it easier by deciding to play a bit different than I normally do.  He also never connected the statements in any meaningful way.

Quote

One player is slightly scummy and lurks and the other is more scummy but is active. Who do you choose to lynch?

Should have been this:

Quote

One player is slightly scummy and lurks and the other is more scummy but is active.  You are in LYLO.  Who do you choose to lynch?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day One
Post by: Fniff on May 22, 2014, 07:14:11 pm

Quote from: RangerCado on May 21, 2014, 02:14:29 pm

Fniff: ...Yes, now why don't you go answer the questions posed to you, as well as do a bit of your own hunting? Saying your here but doing nothing else is just being lazy, or active-lurking.
Fniff: No questions? Even if your going on a dig through the thread, you should still try to question someone for more information today.

I'm sorry for not posting and asking questions. I'm not really sure if Mafia is the game for me at this point... It's not really what I come for when I play a forum game. I'm not even really sure where to start in terms of questions. I'll try to see if this picks up.

Quote from: Jack A T on May 22, 2014, 02:00:20 pm

Fniff: So, how's that readthrough going?

Pretty well, but I'm still not sure what to do.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day One
Post by: Nerjin on May 22, 2014, 07:15:23 pm

Quote from: tn5421 on May 22, 2014, 03:30:12 pm

Fuck.  You.

Quote from: Life Advice of the Toad

Let us maintain our chill composure.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day One
Post by: tn5421 on May 22, 2014, 07:16:18 pm

@Fniff: That's alright, Mafia isn't for everyone.  I got off on a bad foot because I was already mad as a hare about mafiascum having server problems (they've been down for 2-3 days now) and borno walks in with his half-assed logic thinking he can lead town into mislynches.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day One
Post by: Kansa on May 22, 2014, 07:23:32 pm

The way it is structured leads to the original intent being a question though. I agree with you that it is poorly worded but if he had meant the statement to be part of the "sorry friend" he would have put it on the same line as it rather than make a new one for it.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day One
Post by: Jack A T on May 22, 2014, 07:46:02 pm

Quote from: tn5421 on May 22, 2014, 07:03:05 pm

@Jack A T: Please show where I have refused to answer a question, and I'll show you how to buy seafront property in Kansas.

Of the questions in my spoiler here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=138613.msg5302382#msg5302382), the only one you answered was the one on borno.  You also spoke of seeing no need to defend yourself, called everyone attacking you stupid and said they deserve a loss of your support, and declared that you were avoiding a "wall-war."

If this failure to answer was erroneous (as your response here implies), I apologize.  I can see how you may have missed that.

Now, please answer my questions.

Quote from: tn5421 on May 22, 2014, 07:12:09 pm

Quote

It is lylo, and the votes are tied.

is not a question.  He keeps trying to frame it as a question because he knows I caught him out on a lie and is trying to cover it up by attacking me.  Granted, I made it easier by deciding to play a bit different than I normally do.  He also never connected the statements in any meaningful way.

Quote

One player is slightly scummy and lurks and the other is more scummy but is active. Who do you choose to lynch?

Should have been this:

Quote

One player is slightly scummy and lurks and the other is more scummy but is active.  You are in LYLO.  Who do you choose to lynch?

...no, still not a good case.

One question: how is this supposed to work as an evil scum plan when there is an IC running around required to do his job?

---

Fniff: Mafia isn't for everyone, as tn5421 said. 
If you find it really isn't your sort of game, feel free to request a replacement.
On what to do: A good start is to try to look for something that seems suspicious.  Ask whoever did it about it.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day One
Post by: tn5421 on May 22, 2014, 07:59:51 pm

I assume your questions were in the spoiler?  I didn't actually look at it yet, thats probably how it got missed.  BRB

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day One
Post by: tn5421 on May 22, 2014, 08:06:16 pm

Read this like you would a play, the name is the person talking, because I'm not doing 5+ quote tags.

Jack A T: Where's the scumminess in giving mass advice to be bold and take action to hunt scum?

tn5421: Because I'm the one that takes this advice, and I'm always mislynched early in the game for it.

Jack A T: (Are you speaking from personal experience here?)

tn5421: Yes.

Jack A T: Was this what you thought about the lines I asked about when you voted Tiruin?  If not, what did you think?

tn5421: IMO, being busy IRL is an acceptable excuse to not have time to post, but not an acceptable excuse to dodge questions.  I still want the question answered by Tiruin when she is done with IRL stuff.

...
Jack A T: ...so?  Where's the scumminess?  Why would scum be more likely than town to say incorrect things about LYLO day 1 in a BM?

tn5421: He wants to find out how town will play if the game goes to LYLO, so he can adopt his playstyle with leisure in a (more) successful effort to seem town.  In essence, letting people answer this will enable him to blend in more, which isn't something town should want.

Jack A T: Don't say things like this.  It doesn't help you win, whether you're town or scum.  In fact, it tends to make you look worse.

A better defense strategy is to respond to the attacks against you while actively scumhunting.

tn5421: I don't see why I should care, he's hell bent on scumpainting me and its not like anything I say will be believed until I flip town anyway.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day One
Post by: Silthuri on May 22, 2014, 08:16:39 pm

Votecount:

• darkpaladin109:
• borno: tn5421 (1)
• Fniff:
• Scripten:
• tn5421: borno, Jack A T, RangerCado (3)
• RangerCado:
• Kansa:
• Jack A T:
• Tiruin:

Not voting: Tiruin, Kansa, Scripten, darkpaladin109, Fniff

Votes to Extend: [0/3]
Votes to Shorten: [0/5]

Day ends Monday at 7 pm EST

Quote from: Nerjin on May 22, 2014, 07:15:23 pm

Quote from: Life Advice of the Toad

Let us maintain our chill composure.

I was gonna say that... but seriously. This is a game, people. A serious game, yes, but a game nonetheless.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day One
Post by: tn5421 on May 22, 2014, 08:25:22 pm

It's not like scum!borno is even innovating at all, this is a play I've seen dozens of times.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day One
Post by: Jack A T on May 22, 2014, 08:44:57 pm

tn5421: Alright.  This is what I'm getting from your assorted posts:
*Prior Mafia games (I'm assuming outside of those noted on your MafiaScum Wiki page) were in areas that tended not to have much aggression and boldness, but gave advice to be aggressive and bold.
*Attempts to be aggressive tended to get you killed.
*When seeing advice to be aggressive/bold in Bay 12 (a place that does like aggression and boldness), you were suspicious due to prior mafia... trauma, I guess works as a word here.  This suspicion is crap.
*After enough pressure, you decided to try aggression.
*... by creating a terrible case.
*You're also angry, due in part to MafiaScum having server issues.
*You're even angrier, due to perceiving the backlash against your case as the anti-aggression murderiness you remember from early games.
*Running on anger, you've started repeatedly firing everything you have at your feet.
I see too much reminding me of my own failures in Supernatural 3 here (my first game on Bay 12, while I was used to the EpicMafia meta.  Which had trained me to do some pretty shitty things, it being EpicMafia.), and I've been having doubts about my vote for a while (largely due to the feeling that this was what was going on).

Unvote.  I need to reevaluate the game.

Advice: As I said, take some time to relax.  Have that tea/coffee/whatever.  Read something remotely funny. (http://www.canlii.org/en/on/oncj/doc/2013/2013oncj160/2013oncj160.html)

On your attack on borno:
The statement-statement-question style used by borno is a reasonably common RVS question writing style.  See, for example, this:

Quote from: birdy51 on October 29, 2013, 09:57:44 pm

Imp - You are scum. Right off the bat, you are confronted with the devil himself in Townie Form during RVS and he tunnels aggressively. How do you get him off your back?

When searching for more examples (quick google search), I found this little post from borno:

Spoiler: Exculpatory Evidence! (click to show/hide)

Quote from: borno on April 12, 2013, 07:55:04 am

Griffionday:
It is N1, and you are the scum roleblocker. There are two players you are debating over roleblocking, a lurking player or an active player. Who do you chose to roleblock?
RangerCado:
It is N1, and you are a vanilla mafioso. There are two players you are debating over killing, a lurking player who has a few cases against you or an active player who has not gotten a read off of you yet. Who do you choose to kill?
Imperial Guardsman:
It is N1, and you are the cop. There are two players you are debating over investigating, a lurking player and an active yet scummy player. Who do you choose to inspect?
swordsmith04:
It is N1, and you are the doctor. There are two players you are debating over investigating, a lurking player but is solid when he posts, or a more active player from whom you have a more null-tell on. Who do you chose to inspect?
Spectr:
It is D1, and you are a vanilla townie. There are two players you are debating over putting the tie-breaking vote on, a lurking player and an active yet scummy player. Who do you choose to lynch?
Okami No Rei:
It is D1, and you are the scum roleblocker. There are two play styles you are debating over using, a slightly more lurky playstyle to avoid attention, or a more active play style in which you are more likely to slip up. Which one do you choose?
Nerjin:
It is LyLo, and you are a vanilla townie. There are two players who are both suspicious of you, as you were lurking most of the game. What do you say to divert their suspicion?
Deathsword:
It is LyLo and you are a vanilla mafioso. There are two players who are both suspicion of you, as you were lurking most of the game. What do you say to divert their suspicion?

---

Aaaaaaand I think that's everyone.

Yes, that is borno's standard RVS question writing style.  Borno, I will note, was town that game.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day One
Post by: Tiruin on May 22, 2014, 11:14:44 pm

Quote from: MyOwnWorstEnemy on May 22, 2014, 08:16:39 pm

Day ends Monday at 7 pm EST

So I'm ironically dying from resting so much (figuratively) and...thanks for the extend y'all :x
Will get in a post later for sure.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day One
Post by: borno on May 23, 2014, 02:12:24 am

tn5421:

Quote from: tn5421 on May 22, 2014, 07:03:05 pm

@borno: pseudo = false, but thanks for trying

I know what pseudo means. That's why I attached this

Quote from: borno on May 22, 2014, 04:28:56 pm

Quote from: tn5421 on May 22, 2014, 03:30:12 pm

@borno, #106: One long big pseudo-justification for your omgus.  You must be so proud.

For one, having any sort of justification for a vote makes it not an OMGUS. An OMGUS is when you vote someone for the sole reason that they voted you, which you would realise if you properly read my post. You claim that it is merely a pseudo-justification, yet you do nothing at all to back up your claim? Are you even trying anymore? Make a real post against me!

to the end of my point. Please, read my whole post.

Quote from: tn5421 on May 22, 2014, 07:03:05 pm

Quote from: borno on May 21, 2014, 04:37:43 pm

tn5421:

Quote from: tn5421 on May 20, 2014, 08:07:35 pm

@borno: Wow, no questions to me.  The insult cuts deep.

Sorry, friend.
It is lylo, and the votes are tied. One player is slightly scummy and lurks and the other is more scummy but is active. Who do you choose to lynch?

Please tell me ALL ABOUT how its a question.  I will redirect you to the seafront property in Kansas.

Because it's a hypothetical question asked at the start at the game to start things up? Honestly, I don't know why you're attacking me asking a question when, bolded, you wanted me to give you one. In the next post you make you "clarify" why it was scummy by saying I should reverse the situation and the setting, but I prefer to give the setting before the situation. Anyway, I still don't see how that's scummy. If it's the 'sorry friend' bit you are mad about, I was saying it as a joke because you said I had insulted you.

Quote from: tn5421 on May 22, 2014, 07:03:05 pm

We both know I'm conftown, since your role pm told you who your scumbuddy was, I don't understand why you think you can keep this pretence of legitimacy up.

I'm sorry, but you are certainly not conftown.

Quote from: tn5421 on May 22, 2014, 07:03:05 pm

Nice twisting my words, by the way.  I firmly stated my desire to not play with idiots, because it's not fun in the slightest.

As to why I don't need to defend myself; all you're going to do is twist anything I could possibly say until its barely recognizable anymore, so why should I feed the troll?

Firstly, if you don't want to play with idiots, don't join a BM. But in any case, I never twisted your words. You are refusing to answer me, no? So, this

Quote from: borno on May 22, 2014, 04:28:56 pm

You realise that you are the one who is throwing the game when you refuse to defend yourself?

still stands.
Secondly, I guess that since you don't need to defend yourself, we don't need to stop voting you.

Quote from: tn5421 on May 22, 2014, 08:25:22 pm

It's not like scum!borno is even innovating at all, this is a play I've seen dozens of times.

You keep calling me scum, yet have no case beyond 'he attacked me!'. This is a good example of an OMGUS, not the post in which I gave good reasons for my vote.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day One
Post by: RangerCado on May 23, 2014, 10:25:15 am

Sorry for not posting much yesterday. I'll get a bigger post out tonight.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day One
Post by: Jack A T on May 23, 2014, 12:39:16 pm

Alright.

Re-evaluation.

*Tiruin: Justified low activity: Has been forced to do her best Pandarsenic imitation (exams...).  Null read.
*Fniff: Is not sure if Mafia is his sort of game, and is having trouble getting in to it.  Most likely of the players here to request replacement.  Null read.
*darkpaladin109: Said he would reread the thread on the 22nd. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=138613.msg5299644#msg5299644)  Never posted that day.  Has been online, but inactive.  Needs to be more active.  Mild scum lean.
*Scripten: Last active on the board on the 21st.  Contributed a bit during early RVS, but activity dropped later.  Last post (which was two days after his previous post) was minimal (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=138613.msg5300875#msg5300875).  Needs to return to the board and be more active.  Null read: while quite lurky when last playing, he's stopped being on the forum for a bit.
*tn5421: See my last post.  Let's see what his next post is.  Null read at the moment.
*Kansa: After a period of difficulty with the game, Kansa visibly started to get the hang of it around this post (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=138613.msg5302504#msg5302504).  Is (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=138613.msg5302504#msg5302504) rapidly evaluating (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=138613.msg5302676#msg5302676) and re-evaluating (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=138613.msg5302713#msg5302713) reads  Needs much practice.  Slight town lean.
*borno: Is tangled up in a mess with tn5421.  Has said little about anyone else recently.  Null read.
*RangerCado: I await that post.  I also await an answer to my question (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=138613.msg5302382#msg5302382).  Null read.

Turns out this game is hard when half of the players are barely here for various reasons.  So many null reads...

darkpaladin109: So, how's that readthrough going?
Scripten: Are you here?  Any thoughts?
borno: We know your thoughts on tn5421 well.  Any thoughts on other players?
Kansa: Quick question: what is your gender?

---

MyOwnWorstEnemy: Please prod Scripten (37 hours) and darkpaladin109 (44 hours).

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day One
Post by: Kansa on May 23, 2014, 01:28:26 pm

To Jack A T: I'm Male

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day One
Post by: darkpaladin109 on May 23, 2014, 02:08:58 pm

No need to prod, posting now.

---

Quote from: Jack A T on May 23, 2014, 12:39:16 pm

darkpaladin109: So, how's that readthrough going?

I suppose it's going....alright. All I really found was a question I didn't see, which I suppose I'l be answering now.

Quote from: Scripten on May 19, 2014, 09:27:16 pm

Tn5421 and darkpaladin109: Since you both were in the last beginner's mafia game, which was a sprint, how do you expect this game will differ? How will you be changing your playstyles to adapt to those differences?

Sorry for missing the question Scripten. As for my answer, I have been in a BM before, though I haven't gotten through the end there. I suppose the difference is that it's going to be much slower paced, and I going to be able to get more posts in, at the very least. I don't really have a solid playstyle right now, to be perfectly honest, though.

---

I think that's all the questions for me, so if I missed any, it would be nice if you let me know.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day One
Post by: tn5421 on May 23, 2014, 04:52:18 pm

Jack A T: *Attempts to be aggressive tended to get you killed.

tn5421: On day one, at that.

Jack A T: *When seeing advice to be aggressive/bold in Bay 12 (a place that does like aggression and boldness), you were suspicious due to prior mafia... trauma, I guess works as a word here.  This suspicion is crap.

tn5421: No, the format is crap and you ask for people to misunderstand you.

Jack A T: *After enough pressure, you decided to try aggression.

tn5421: Because I'll be lynched if I don't.  Incidentially, I'll be lynched if I do, as well.  Catch 22 much?

Jack A T: *... by creating a terrible case.

tn5421: Nobody seems to want to post so what evidence am I supposed to use, exactly?

Jack A T: *You're also angry, due in part to MafiaScum having server issues.

tn5421: Yeah, I queued for a couple of small, fun games (5p vengeful and stuff like that) just to kick back and have a bit of fun, and the server goes down.

Jack A T: *You're even angrier, due to perceiving the backlash against your case as the anti-aggression murderiness you remember from early games.

tn5421: See Catch 22.

Jack A T: *Running on anger, you've started repeatedly firing everything you have at your feet.

tn5421: If everyone is going to suspect me no matter what I do then why even play in the first place, because it is certainly not fun for me in the slightest right now.

@borno: Why should I waste 15 or more minutes of my life reading your scumpainting post?

Quote

I prefer to give the setting before the situation

Then maybe you should make it obvious that you're doing so.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day One
Post by: Scripten on May 23, 2014, 05:00:50 pm

Hi all. I'm not sure if my current internet setup is going to be sufficient to finish out this game. I've just moved into a new apartment and my internet service has been delayed. What with this silly old town shutting down at 4 or 5 at night, I don't think using the internet cafes is going to cut it. I really do want to keep playing, but it doesn't seem to be working out right now. It's been fun so far, but my activity is terrible and I should give up my spot for someone who's able to be more active.

Therefore, I'm going to put myself up for replacement.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day One
Post by: borno on May 23, 2014, 05:38:37 pm

tn5421:

Quote from: tn5421 on May 23, 2014, 04:52:18 pm

@borno: Why should I waste 15 or more minutes of my life reading your scumpainting post?

::) This is what got you into this mess, remember? Not properly reading my post?

Quote from: tn5421 on May 23, 2014, 04:52:18 pm

Quote

I prefer to give the setting before the situation

Then maybe you should make it obvious that you're doing so.

What? So you're saying I should have structured it like this?
Setting: It is lylo. Situation: There is one player who is being active but dropping a few scumtells. There is another who is lurky, but who is slightly less scummy. The votes are tied between them. Decision: Who do you choose to lynch?

---

tn5421, since you continue to refuse to defend yourself, I'll just leave my vote here until you prove to me that I can take it off.
darkpaladin109:

Quote from: darkpaladin109 on May 23, 2014, 02:08:58 pm

No need to prod, posting now.

---

Quote from: Jack A T on May 23, 2014, 12:39:16 pm

darkpaladin109: So, how's that readthrough going?

I suppose it's going....alright. All I really found was a question I didn't see, which I suppose I'l be answering now.

Quote from: Scripten on May 19, 2014, 09:27:16 pm

Tn5421 and darkpaladin109: Since you both were in the last beginner's mafia game, which was a sprint, how do you expect this game will differ? How will you be changing your playstyles to adapt to those differences?

Sorry for missing the question Scripten. As for my answer, I have been in a BM before, though I haven't gotten through the end there. I suppose the difference is that it's going to be much slower paced, and I going to be able to get more posts in, at the very least. I don't really have a solid playstyle right now, to be perfectly honest, though.

---

I think that's all the questions for me, so if I missed any, it would be nice if you let me know.

Really? You take two days to read 7 pages, and this is all that you have? What are your reads? What do you think about tn5421 and I? Did kansa just drop a scumtell? There is so much more you can post with two days up your sleeve.

---

I think that everyone should, at this point, show all of their reads on others, following Jack A T. Here are my own.

darkpaladin109: Lurky. Doesn't post much when he posts. Null.

Fniff: Mafia doesn't seem to be for him. Lurky. Null.

Scripten: Replacing out. Same as above.

tn5421: Scummy. Overly aggressive, refuses to defend self.

RangerCado: Reasonably active, makes rich, nourishing posts. Leaning town, however, tn5421 seemed to buddy him earlier.

Kansa: Active, but some posts make him seem more active-lurky than active due to their content levels. Leaning town.

Jack A T: Active, makes sound posts. Leaning town.

Tiruin: Eaten by exams. Only seen once or twice since then.

---

Quote from: Scripten on May 23, 2014, 05:00:50 pm

Hi all. I'm not sure if my current internet setup is going to be sufficient to finish out this game. I've just moved into a new apartment and my internet service has been delayed. What with this silly old town shutting down at 4 or 5 at night, I don't think using the internet cafes is going to cut it. I really do want to keep playing, but it doesn't seem to be working out right now. It's been fun so far, but my activity is terrible and I should give up my spot for someone who's able to be more active.

Therefore, I'm going to put myself up for replacement.

Sad to see you go. Good luck in your new home!

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - One Spot Left!!
Post by: Silthuri on May 23, 2014, 07:50:46 pm

Votecount:

• darkpaladin109: Jack A T (1)
• borno: tn5421 (1)
• Fniff:
• Scripten:
• tn5421: borno, RangerCado (2)
• RangerCado:
• Kansa:
• Jack A T:
• Tiruin:

Votes to Extend: [0/3]
Votes to Shorten: [0/5]

Day ends Monday at 7 pm EST

Scripten is up for replacement.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day One
Post by: tn5421 on May 23, 2014, 09:03:36 pm

There is no need for me to do so; you have already decided that I'm guilty, and no defense would stop you from seeing me lynched anyway.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day One
Post by: borno on May 23, 2014, 10:57:32 pm

tn5421:

Quote from: tn5421 on May 23, 2014, 09:03:36 pm

There is no need for me to do so; you have already decided that I'm guilty, and no defense would stop you from seeing me lynched anyway.

I don't know why you keep assuming that nothing you can do will stop me from voting you. If you give a decent enough explanation for your actions then I may drop my vote. But currently, by refusing to defend yourself you are being a huge scumbucket. You insist that playing with idiots is not fun at all, yet I think that playing with someone who resigns themselves to death for no good reason at all is not very fun. It doesn't matter if you're scum or town; you're throwing the game for yourself and your teammates by doing this.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day One
Post by: RangerCado on May 24, 2014, 02:02:47 am

I am going through the posts starting with the first quoted, so I may jump around a lot and make outdated assumptions. Just bear with me please.

Quote from: Jack A T on May 22, 2014, 02:00:20 pm

Quote from: RangerCado on May 22, 2014, 09:40:56 am

And its more that your giving me a bad vibe with how your phrasing your posts.

RangerCado: Can you describe this in more detail?  What is it about the phrasing that gives you a bad vibe?

Jack: His constant misinterpretation of borno's LYLO question, even after several people fixed the situation is a prime example.

Second, he was fully against any bold actions due to the risk of it getting you NKed. This is rather unnerving to me, as being cautious often leads to obtaining less information, and being unhelpful too the town. Your risk of getting NKed goes up yes, but when you flip town, everything you found out is given that much more relevance and weight.

Quote from: tn5421 on May 22, 2014, 03:30:12 pm

@RangerCado: But can you deny that stuff is getting done?

tn5421: Yes actually. You ask very few questions and are now yelling at everyone and giving up on town. Is that helping town?

Quote from: tn5421 on May 22, 2014, 07:03:05 pm

-snip-

Feeding the troll? Your the only one who appears to be trolling everyone, calling them names and generally being a very unwelcoming person. This entire post quoted is mostly you insulting us all.

Quote from: tn5421 on May 22, 2014, 07:12:09 pm

Quote

It is lylo, and the votes are tied.

is not a question.  He keeps trying to frame it as a question because he knows I caught him out on a lie and is trying to cover it up by attacking me.  Granted, I made it easier by deciding to play a bit different than I normally do.  He also never connected the statements in any meaningful way.

Quote

One player is slightly scummy and lurks and the other is more scummy but is active. Who do you choose to lynch?

Should have been this:

Quote

One player is slightly scummy and lurks and the other is more scummy but is active.  You are in LYLO.  Who do you choose to lynch?

Yet it can't be LYLO day 1 in a beginners mafia! It was obviously just written in  a somewhat confusing manner to you, but most of us both understood, and tried to correct the situation. This is just making you even scummier looking.

Quote from: darkpaladin109 on May 23, 2014, 02:08:58 pm

No need to prod, posting now.

---

Quote from: Jack A T on May 23, 2014, 12:39:16 pm

darkpaladin109: So, how's that readthrough going?

I suppose it's going....alright. All I really found was a question I didn't see, which I suppose I'l be answering now.

Quote from: Scripten on May 19, 2014, 09:27:16 pm

Tn5421 and darkpaladin109: Since you both were in the last beginner's mafia game, which was a sprint, how do you expect this game will differ? How will you be changing your playstyles to adapt to those differences?

Sorry for missing the question Scripten. As for my answer, I have been in a BM before, though I haven't gotten through the end there. I suppose the difference is that it's going to be much slower paced, and I going to be able to get more posts in, at the very least. I don't really have a solid playstyle right now, to be perfectly honest, though.

---

I think that's all the questions for me, so if I missed any, it would be nice if you let me know.

Darkpaladin: ...Several days of information to go off of and dig through, and yet this post... This is just so empty, with almost do information at all to go off of from it, and very little actually done. Do you have any suspects, reads, or questions to ask people? At all?

Quote from: tn5421 on May 23, 2014, 09:03:36 pm

There is no need for me to do so; you have already decided that I'm guilty, and no defense would stop you from seeing me lynched anyway.

tn5421: ...Dude, please just... this is partially what is killing you in this game. You've decided that your just gonna let yourself die. If your town, then you should still work to try and find scum. The more you do, and the more active you actually are, the less reason and sense we have to keep our votes on you if you start looking townie again. I know this feeling of getting ganged up on, but just try for the rest of the game.

UNVOTE because at this point in time, tn5421 seems more like a 'feeling hopless and trapped' townie than a terrible mafiasco. I'll get a reads list up sometime tomorrow... sometime today actually. (12:03... and I wanted to fall asleep before the day changed. XD *sigh* night all!)

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day One
Post by: Jack A T on May 24, 2014, 12:49:35 pm

Quote from: borno on May 23, 2014, 05:38:37 pm

I think that everyone should, at this point, show all of their reads on others, following Jack A T.

Yes, let's do so.

darkpaladin109: Well, that was certainly a very useful post.  Were you left with any thoughts about anyone after your reread?  Anything you wanted more information on?  Anything at all?

---

Tiruin: Could you please take a break from your resting?  We really need another IC here for the tn5421 thing.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day One
Post by: Jack A T on May 24, 2014, 12:53:05 pm

Also, MyOwnWorstEnemy: Both players on the replacement list have been away from the forum for multiple days (Soldier since the 19th, Whitius since the 21st).  I wouldn't expect a response from either of them.  I recommend editing the thread title to note we need a replacement.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day One
Post by: tn5421 on May 24, 2014, 05:33:14 pm

@RangerCado: The defender is always wrong, and the attacker is always right in the eyes of public opinion.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day One
Post by: Kansa on May 24, 2014, 05:51:26 pm

To tn5421: That is a silly statement, if that was the case then we would all be jumping on borno now as you were the one who attacked him first.


Readings

darkpaladin109: Lurks a lot, does not post too much when he does post. Not really enough information to get a reading on

Tiriun: Inactive for justifiable reason, no reading.

Fniff: Says game is probably not for him, null reading.

Scripten: Requested replacement, null reading.

tn5421: Is still on borno's case, refuses to defend himself on multiple situations. Slightly scummy but frustration with the game can explain this.

Jack A T: Makes high content filled posts and contributed a lot to the game, leaning towards town.

Rangercado: Makes good posts and contributes to the game, leaning towards town.

borno: Most of recent posts have been warring with tn5421. Null reading

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day One
Post by: RangerCado on May 24, 2014, 07:40:48 pm

Quote from: tn5421 on May 24, 2014, 05:33:14 pm

@RangerCado: The defender is always wrong, and the attacker is always right in the eyes of public opinion.

tn5421: Thats... a really pessimistic outlook. What you have to do is not just stick to defending, and acknowledge points they make against you that are true or understandable. While doing this, you check to see if their activity in them questioning you is scummy, as well as doing the rounds on others. Never STOP hunting, and your much more likely to survive. If you do end up day 1 lynched, or NKed, oh well. You got unlucky, but theres always the next game.

---

Reads:

Darkpaladin: Very few posts... anywhere on the forum actually. The few times he is on, he's gone in half an hour. Null read, need more info.

Tiruin: Busy with real life, so she hasn't posted much. Null read, need more info.

Fniff: Almost nothing at all to go on, null read again.

Scripten: Null read again with a request for replacement. Was hunting though.

tn5421: ...Leaning scum slightly. Scummy activity, but is obviously trying to understand how to play on the forum. Refusal to defend himself, and tunneling of borno without going after others is worrying though.

Jack: Contributes a lot, doing his IC job, nothing really scummy at all. Small town lean.

borno: slight lean scum. Although active, he is tunneling tn5421 and not doing much else after a good start to the game.

Kansa: Neutral read. Could do with a LOT more content in his posts, but IS trying.

---

borno: Can you give your list of points against tn5421? Why aren't you questioning others? Do you have anyone else on your radar?

tn5421: At this point, do you really think defending yourself will make things worse for yourself? Why have you decided to resign yourself to this fate, while also stopping your hunting? If people ignore you because they think your not worth it, then that just leads to you getting a case against them. Can you try? Please? :)

Tiruin: If you do get a chance, can you post your thoughts on the tn5421 vs borno situation atleast?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day One
Post by: darkpaladin109 on May 24, 2014, 07:52:43 pm

I'l be going to bed soon and I'l have to go to my Uncle and Aunt's house for pretty much the whole day tommorow, so I guess I should make at least a single post before I go.

---

Quote from: Jack A T on May 24, 2014, 12:49:35 pm

darkpaladin109: Well, that was certainly a very useful post.  Were you left with any thoughts about anyone after your reread?  Anything you wanted more information on?  Anything at all?

---

The sarcasm. It is strong.
But eh, I don't have any reads yet, since I suppose it is a bit early, though that's not a good excuse for my lack of reads. Like everyone else, tn451 seems suspicious, but I am not quite sure if he's Scum or not.

---

Reads, I guess?
Tiruin: Hasn't posted very much for justified reasons, so null.

JackAT: Posts a lot, helpful and doing his job and so on. Leans towards town.

Scripten: Null, especially since he's going to be replaced.

Kansa: First time player, as far as I know, and null so far. Slightly town for at least trying?

tn451: While his behavior is scummy so far, it's not a guarantee that he is scum.

borno: Null, I guess. He is actively attacking tn451, but no guarentees that he's either town or scum.

Fniff: Null. Not much else to say on him.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day One
Post by: tn5421 on May 24, 2014, 08:10:03 pm

@Kansa: But you'll notice I'm on everyones 'suspicious' list.

@RangerCado: Except I didn't have problems playing as scum.

@Everyone: If I were scum, why would I draw your attention and paint a target on myself?

@darkpaladin109: It's nice of you to finally participate.  What kept you?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day One
Post by: borno on May 24, 2014, 08:56:09 pm

RangerCado:

Quote from: RangerCado on May 24, 2014, 07:40:48 pm

borno: Can you give your list of points against tn5421? Why aren't you questioning others? Do you have anyone else on your radar?

Sure thing.
My case in summary:

• Says Jack A T giving advice would be scummy if he weren't IC for a nonsensical reason
• Then votes me for asking a hypothetical situation
• Gets very angry when questioned about it
• Refuses to defend self when further questioned
• Insists that I am scum yet makes no good case against me
• Is generally needlessly aggressive to everyone

And what do you mean I haven't been questioning others? I certainly have asked at least a few. Sure, not as much as I ask tn5421, but that's because he's my main target right now.
Others on my radar include darkpaladin for being rather lurky, and if tn5421 flips scum then you, as he seems to be buddying you pretty hard.
tn5421:

Quote from: tn5421 on May 24, 2014, 08:10:03 pm

@Everyone: If I were scum, why would I draw your attention and paint a target on myself?

That's a terrible argument. No scum wants to draw others' attention too much; yet by dropping scumtells they inevitably end up being in the limelight.

---

I think I may reread the thread later today, but I've got quite the headache right now.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day One
Post by: RangerCado on May 24, 2014, 09:05:24 pm

Quote from: tn5421 on May 24, 2014, 08:10:03 pm

@Everyone: If I were scum, why would I draw your attention and paint a target on myself?

tn5421: Too keep suspicion away from your scum buddy, cause WIFOM. Really just to insue chaos.

borno: ...How is he buddying me exactly? At all? And points 1, 2, 4, and 6 can all be somewhat explained by miscommunication and previous frustration. Yes, he's been aggresive and angry, but at this point, the only thing thats really against him beside 3 and 5 is his lack of actual hunting. I see someone who is confused at whats going on more than a scum.

And no, you haven't. In the last 2 pages approximately, you have only been attacking tn5421. Thats no questioning others. Who would you suspect if tn5421 ends up being town?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day One
Post by: Jack A T on May 24, 2014, 09:54:04 pm

Quote from: tn5421 on May 24, 2014, 05:33:14 pm

@RangerCado: The defender is always wrong, and the attacker is always right in the eyes of public opinion.

tn5421: The public clearly doesn't play enough Mafia, then.  Kansa and RangerCado have points here.  Don't let your attacker(s) control the narrative about you.

Quote from: tn5421 on May 24, 2014, 08:10:03 pm

@Kansa: But you'll notice I'm on everyones 'suspicious' list.

...did you miss the whole thing where I unvoted you and later said I had a null read on you?  Also, you haven't been a defender in this situation.  You've actively been a non-defender.

Quote from: tn5421 on May 24, 2014, 08:10:03 pm

@Everyone: If I were scum, why would I draw your attention and paint a target on myself?

If I were scum, why would I ever do anything that makes people want to lynch me?  The attack on borno can only be called painting a target on yourself in hindsight.  The refusal to defend yourself was a poor idea whether town or scum, and you've been clearly running on rage (a state where people have poor ideas, among other things).

Kansa: Alright, you have reads.  How do you intend to improve them?  (I strongly recommend asking a few questions)
darkpaladin109: See my question to Kansa.  Also, why nothing about RangerCado?

Quote from: borno on May 23, 2014, 05:38:37 pm

(to darkpaladin109) Did kansa just drop a scumtell?

borno: (parenthetical added by me) Looking back, this question interests me.  Do you think Kansa dropped a scumtell?  Why point darkpaladin109 so specifically towards Kansa (and yes, I know you pointed him at the you/tn5421 feud as well)?

RangerCado: You recently stated (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=138613.msg5307028#msg5307028) that you thought tn5421 was town.  Soon afterwards, you stated (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=138613.msg5308775#msg5308775) that you were leaning towards tn5421 being scum.  What triggered the quick change in opinion?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day One
Post by: Jack A T on May 24, 2014, 10:10:09 pm

Also, Fniff: Are you still here?  Any thoughts on current in-game events?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day One
Post by: RangerCado on May 24, 2014, 11:02:50 pm

Jack: If you read the reasons in the slight scum lean, I state my thought process. I think he's town, I want to believe it, but going off evidence he leans scum very slightly. Its confusing for me, but I think I can figure out my stance soon.

Also, EXTEND. We kinda need it if we want the lurkers and RL busies to come in and help.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day One
Post by: Jack A T on May 24, 2014, 11:08:12 pm

Extend.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day One
Post by: borno on May 25, 2014, 04:21:05 am

Jack A T:

Quote from: Jack A T on May 24, 2014, 09:54:04 pm

Quote from: borno on May 23, 2014, 05:38:37 pm

(to darkpaladin109) Did kansa just drop a scumtell?

borno: (parenthetical added by me) Looking back, this question interests me.  Do you think Kansa dropped a scumtell?  Why point darkpaladin109 so specifically towards Kansa (and yes, I know you pointed him at the you/tn5421 feud as well)?

Honestly, I just chose a random player to try and give him ideas. Nothing against Kansa, I was just trying to motivate darkpaladin109.
RangerCado:

Quote from: RangerCado on May 24, 2014, 09:05:24 pm

borno: ...How is he buddying me exactly? At all? And points 1, 2, 4, and 6 can all be somewhat explained by miscommunication and previous frustration. Yes, he's been aggresive and angry, but at this point, the only thing thats really against him beside 3 and 5 is his lack of actual hunting. I see someone who is confused at whats going on more than a scum.

And no, you haven't. In the last 2 pages approximately, you have only been attacking tn5421. Thats no questioning others. Who would you suspect if tn5421 ends up being town?

Well, earlier he mentioned that he would like to have you as a scum buddy and then later said that

Quote from: tn5421 on May 22, 2014, 03:30:12 pm

-snip-
as the people that are voting me are doing so for mainly nonsensical reasons.  Except for RangerCado, I think.

when what you said was something I had already stated myself. Granted, the first one doesn't really count, but the second still holds strong.
Secondly, as I stated earlier, I'm keeping my vote on him until he defends himself. It's incredibly frustrating to have someone to just flat out refuse, and it throws the game for whatever team he's on.
And finally, technically speaking I did ask a question to darkpaladin109 earlier, but looking back it appears that that was the only one. I guess I haven't really found anything else too scummy, and so I haven't been questioning others.

---

Extend.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day One
Post by: RangerCado on May 25, 2014, 11:16:38 am

borno: For the tn5421 situation, probably because I wasn't using his anger and frustration as evidence. And thats not buddying to me. To me, thats more stating he thought I had the only somewhat valid case on him.

And not seeing a scummy person is NO reason to not be questioning and hunting people. So yes, my point is valid. So whats your next reason for not questioning others borno?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day One
Post by: Jack A T on May 25, 2014, 01:00:16 pm

borno: I'm going to take a different approach to the issue of alleged buddying.  Why is tn5421 allegedly buddying RangerCado effecting your read of Cado so much?  How exactly does someone you think is scum trying to buddy an attacker make the attacker in question scummier?

Quote from: borno on May 25, 2014, 04:21:05 am

I guess I haven't really found anything else too scummy, and so I haven't been questioning others.

Try also looking for things that are vague, or things that interest you.  Find things you want more information on and ask about them.  Even actions that are not immediately scummy can lead to the revelation of rather interesting/scummy things when you question people about them.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day One
Post by: Tiruin on May 25, 2014, 01:10:08 pm

Extend

You know the several times transitioning from a whole educational system to a new one and the constant hassle on enrollment and changing stuffs along with RL environmental fun like bad and slow net ++ exhaustion happens that makes it look like you're too busy to post and making excuses but really aren't because of all the hilarity and coincidences of this all happenining in this current timespan feels?

It's not good x_x
Sorry for absence. Will post. In a day.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day One
Post by: tn5421 on May 25, 2014, 02:14:41 pm

Power Pole, Extend!

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day One
Post by: borno on May 25, 2014, 04:32:10 pm

RangerCado:

Quote from: RangerCado on May 25, 2014, 11:16:38 am

borno: For the tn5421 situation, probably because I wasn't using his anger and frustration as evidence. And thats not buddying to me. To me, thats more stating he thought I had the only somewhat valid case on him.

And not seeing a scummy person is NO reason to not be questioning and hunting people. So yes, my point is valid. So whats your next reason for not questioning others borno?

Uh, yes you did.

Quote from: RangerCado on May 22, 2014, 09:40:56 am

Quote from: tn5421 on May 21, 2014, 07:22:07 pm

-cut irrelevant bits-
You go right ahead and lynch me day one, it doesn't make a bit of difference to me.

...REALLY!? Town shouldn't try to hard to keep themselves, but this is just... WHY!? Vote tn5421.

Your only point against him is something he said... While very angry and frustrated at Jack A T's vote. Also, I believe that it is buddying or perhaps defending?
While I'm attacking someone, I usually focus my attention on them and ask questions to others when I see something scummy. So, that's my reason for not questioning anyone while I was attacking tn5421. I guess that now that I've stopped attacking him, I'll ask questions to others.

---

Once again, will post more after school.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - One Spot Left!!
Post by: Silthuri on May 25, 2014, 04:57:55 pm

Votecount:

• darkpaladin109: Jack A T (1)
• borno: tn5421, RangerCado (2)
• Fniff:
• Scripten:
• tn5421: borno (1)
• RangerCado:
• Kansa:
• Jack A T:
• Tiruin:

Not voting: Tiruin, Kansa, Scripten, darkpaladin109

Votes to Extend: [0/3]
Votes to Shorten: [0/5]

Day has been extended and ends Wednesday at 7 pm EST
There are no more extends available for today!

Scripten is up for replacement.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day One - Replacement Needed!!!
Post by: borno on May 26, 2014, 12:54:47 am

MyOwnWorstEnemy:
RangerCado is voting me, not tn5421.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day One - Replacement Needed!!!
Post by: RangerCado on May 26, 2014, 12:55:57 am

There is no problem in the vote count borno. Look closely.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day One - Replacement Needed!!!
Post by: borno on May 26, 2014, 01:57:14 am

Oh, my bad. As you were.   :-[

Anyway, now that you're here RangerCado, would you mind responding to my post?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day One
Post by: RangerCado on May 26, 2014, 08:09:53 am

Quote from: borno on May 25, 2014, 04:32:10 pm

RangerCado:

Quote from: RangerCado on May 25, 2014, 11:16:38 am

borno: For the tn5421 situation, probably because I wasn't using his anger and frustration as evidence. And thats not buddying to me. To me, thats more stating he thought I had the only somewhat valid case on him.

And not seeing a scummy person is NO reason to not be questioning and hunting people. So yes, my point is valid. So whats your next reason for not questioning others borno?

Uh, yes you did.

Quote from: RangerCado on May 22, 2014, 09:40:56 am

Quote from: tn5421 on May 21, 2014, 07:22:07 pm

-cut irrelevant bits-
You go right ahead and lynch me day one, it doesn't make a bit of difference to me.

...REALLY!? Town shouldn't try to hard to keep themselves, but this is just... WHY!? Vote tn5421.

Your only point against him is something he said... While very angry and frustrated at Jack A T's vote. Also, I believe that it is buddying or perhaps defending?
While I'm attacking someone, I usually focus my attention on them and ask questions to others when I see something scummy. So, that's my reason for not questioning anyone while I was attacking tn5421. I guess that now that I've stopped attacking him, I'll ask questions to others.

---

Once again, will post more after school.

borno: That was not anger or frustration. That was giving up completely which made me really frustrated. And defending if the attacks are flimsy, or suspicious themselves is usually seen as a continuation of hunting. Can you give a couple examples of this buddying? Cause I really don't see it.

And you may want to work on that, as tunneling someone usually blinds you to what else is going on in the game. Remember there ARE two scum, and the chances of getting them day 1 are generally slim. Your lack of going against others is very worrying to me, as it could mean you were trying to find as much dirt as possible in a short amount of time to rally against a player who for the past 2 days hasn't said much to even attack on. You've been going back and forth with me and Jack for the past while. Why didn't you ask questions of others then?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day One
Post by: darkpaladin109 on May 26, 2014, 03:37:49 pm

Quote from: tn5421 on May 24, 2014, 08:10:03 pm

@Everyone: If I were scum, why would I draw your attention and paint a target on myself?

@darkpaladin109: It's nice of you to finally participate.  What kept you?

Question 1: I guess that's a pretty good point. Yeah, I think that tn451 might not be scum, BUT we'll see if that's true as the game unfolds.
Question 2: Laziness and I had to study for school. Eh, I'd say it's the first more than the second, though.

Quote from: Jack A T on May 24, 2014, 09:54:04 pm

Kansa: Alright, you have reads.  How do you intend to improve them?  (I strongly recommend asking a few questions)
darkpaladin109: See my question to Kansa.  Also, why nothing about RangerCado?

Question 1, since you want me to answer it: I guess asking questions is a good thing. I'l read the recent replies tommorow and see what questions I can think from that.
Question 2: Eh, I don't think there's anything to point him in either direction yet, at least as far as I see.
Bed soon, so more replies tommorow.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day One
Post by: borno on May 26, 2014, 04:47:03 pm

RangerCado:

Quote from: RangerCado on May 26, 2014, 08:09:53 am

Quote from: borno on May 25, 2014, 04:32:10 pm

RangerCado:

Quote from: RangerCado on May 25, 2014, 11:16:38 am

borno: For the tn5421 situation, probably because I wasn't using his anger and frustration as evidence. And thats not buddying to me. To me, thats more stating he thought I had the only somewhat valid case on him.

And not seeing a scummy person is NO reason to not be questioning and hunting people. So yes, my point is valid. So whats your next reason for not questioning others borno?

Uh, yes you did.

Quote from: RangerCado on May 22, 2014, 09:40:56 am

Quote from: tn5421 on May 21, 2014, 07:22:07 pm

-cut irrelevant bits-
You go right ahead and lynch me day one, it doesn't make a bit of difference to me.

...REALLY!? Town shouldn't try to hard to keep themselves, but this is just... WHY!? Vote tn5421.

Your only point against him is something he said... While very angry and frustrated at Jack A T's vote. Also, I believe that it is buddying or perhaps defending?
While I'm attacking someone, I usually focus my attention on them and ask questions to others when I see something scummy. So, that's my reason for not questioning anyone while I was attacking tn5421. I guess that now that I've stopped attacking him, I'll ask questions to others.

borno: That was not anger or frustration. That was giving up completely which made me really frustrated. And defending if the attacks are flimsy, or suspicious themselves is usually seen as a continuation of hunting. Can you give a couple examples of this buddying? Cause I really don't see it.

No, he gave up because of his anger/frustration. He even says in a later post, 'if you're stupid enough to lynch me, you lose my support'. Doesn't sound what someone feeling happy would say. And no, I wasn't speaking about him defending himself.

Quote from: tn5421 on May 22, 2014, 03:30:12 pm

@Kansa: He was attempting to panic the townsfolk, which is an action that primarily advances the scum wincon.  I don't see the need to defend myself at this point in the game, as the people that are voting me are doing so for mainly nonsensical reasons.  Except for RangerCado, I think.

Highlighting the buddying bit. There was absolutely no reason for him to say that. It's not something to vote you about straight away, but it certainly requires looking into if he flips scum.

Quote from: RangerCado on May 26, 2014, 08:09:53 am

And you may want to work on that, as tunneling someone usually blinds you to what else is going on in the game. Remember there ARE two scum, and the chances of getting them day 1 are generally slim. Your lack of going against others is very worrying to me, as it could mean you were trying to find as much dirt as possible in a short amount of time to rally against a player who for the past 2 days hasn't said much to even attack on. You've been going back and forth with me and Jack for the past while. Why didn't you ask questions of others then?

Of course. That doesn't mean that I can't try, though. I don't really go after anyone else, because there is nothing else to go after. People are as lurky as a catfish in here. Also, I've stopped tunnelling tn5421 now, as detailed here:

Quote from: borno on May 23, 2014, 05:38:37 pm

tn5421, since you continue to refuse to defend yourself, I'll just leave my vote here until you prove to me that I can take it off.

darkpaladin109:

Quote from: darkpaladin109 on May 26, 2014, 03:37:49 pm

Quote from: tn5421 on May 24, 2014, 08:10:03 pm

@Everyone: If I were scum, why would I draw your attention and paint a target on myself?

@darkpaladin109: It's nice of you to finally participate.  What kept you?

Question 1: I guess that's a pretty good point. Yeah, I think that tn451 might not be scum, BUT we'll see if that's true as the game unfolds.
Question 2: Laziness and I had to study for school. Eh, I'd say it's the first more than the second, though.

Quote from: Jack A T on May 24, 2014, 09:54:04 pm

Kansa: Alright, you have reads.  How do you intend to improve them?  (I strongly recommend asking a few questions)
darkpaladin109: See my question to Kansa.  Also, why nothing about RangerCado?

Question 1, since you want me to answer it: I guess asking questions is a good thing. I'l read the recent replies tommorow and see what questions I can think from that.
Question 2: Eh, I don't think there's anything to point him in either direction yet, at least as far as I see.
Bed soon, so more replies tommorow.

That's really not good enough. Hopefully you'll make it up with your big post tomorrow, but the way you're going you're becoming scummier by the second.
Everyone: Please, post more! Could we perhaps get prods on the people not posting?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day One - Replacement Needed!!!
Post by: Kansa on May 26, 2014, 05:04:08 pm

To borno: I really don't think personally that tn5421 was buddying rangercado, if they were buddies why would rangercado accuse tn5421 in the first place?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day One - Replacement Needed!!!
Post by: Jack A T on May 26, 2014, 06:28:08 pm

borno: My questions (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=138613.msg5310568#msg5310568), please.  Also, a quick note: while I responded to Kansa's question to you with general IC advice, do answer his question.  This specific situation is worth seeing your thoughts on.

---

Quote from: Kansa on May 26, 2014, 05:04:08 pm

To borno: I really don't think personally that tn5421 was buddying rangercado, if they were buddies why would rangercado accuse tn5421 in the first place?

Kansa: That's not what we tend to mean by "buddying."  "Buddying" basically refers to attempts to cozy up to a player, making that player both more friendly to the buddier and easier to convince.

Regarding the question you're asking, scum accusing scum is something that happens.  It's called bussing (throwing one's partner under the bus), and it's done both to distance the scum from each other and to look more like town.  People who push a scum lynch tend to be seen as more town-like, so sometimes a scumteam member will try to push a lynch of their partner.
Scum rarely lynches their own Day 1 in this setup, as the loss is too great this early.

I strongly recommend trying to figure out some more questions and trying to improve your reads significantly, and figuring out someone to vote for.  High activity is also recommended.  Day 1 ends in a couple days.

MyOwnWorstEnemy: In about an hour, Fniff will hit the 48 hour warning threshold.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day One - Replacement Needed!!!
Post by: Kansa on May 26, 2014, 06:46:09 pm

To Jack A T: Ah ok then I misunderstood, thank you for the explanation on both counts.

I am trying to figure out more questions, it's just difficult to think of that many that don't just seem pointless though.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day One - Replacement Needed!!!
Post by: Jack A T on May 26, 2014, 06:49:46 pm

Quote from: Kansa on May 26, 2014, 06:46:09 pm

I am trying to figure out more questions, it's just difficult to think of that many that don't just seem pointless though.

Kansa: Can you give an example of one of the seemingly pointless questions you came up with?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day One - Replacement Needed!!!
Post by: Kansa on May 26, 2014, 07:28:31 pm

Quote from: Jack A T on May 26, 2014, 06:49:46 pm

Kansa: Can you give an example of one of the seemingly pointless questions you came up with?

Jack A T:
A specific example of one of these questions would be. Why darkpaladin109 has only asked one question since this thread started? However many other people have already pointed out his inactivity and it seems pointless to ask another question about it when it has already been poked from so many sides. Though as I've already posted it here I might as well ask it

darkapaladin109: Why have you only asked one question since this thread started? You've made few posts to respond to this thread and even in the ones the only question you asked was in the first one.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day One - Replacement Needed!!!
Post by: Jack A T on May 26, 2014, 08:13:44 pm

Kansa: Thing is, that's not quite pointless.  While not the most useful question, it does add to the pressure on darkpaladin to act, and it focuses attention on a specific aspect of his inactivity beyond just low content.  It also shows everyone that you have your eye on darkpaladin.

It's somewhat redundant, and you should try to avoid excessive redundancy, but it has some use.  Writing absolutely pointless questions about the game is actually pretty hard.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - One Spot Left!!
Post by: Silthuri on May 26, 2014, 10:18:00 pm

Votecount:

• darkpaladin109: Jack A T (1)
• borno: tn5421, RangerCado (2)
• Fniff:
• Scripten:
• tn5421: borno (1)
• RangerCado:
• Kansa:
• Jack A T:
• Tiruin:

Not voting: Tiruin, Kansa, Scripten, darkpaladin109

Day ends Wednesday at 7 pm EST
There are no more extends available for today!

Scripten is up for replacement.
fniff has been prodded

Quote from: Jack A T on May 26, 2014, 06:28:08 pm

MyOwnWorstEnemy: In about an hour, Fniff will hit the 48 hour warning threshold.

Thanks for all of the assistance! I hope my inexperience isn't too annoying...

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day One - Replacement Needed!!!
Post by: Fniff on May 26, 2014, 10:18:56 pm

Sorry, but I'm afraid I'd like a replacement. This game is a bit too advanced for me.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day One - Replacement Needed!!!
Post by: tn5421 on May 27, 2014, 04:11:08 am

That's a shame >.<

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day One - Replacement Needed!!!
Post by: darkpaladin109 on May 27, 2014, 02:34:17 pm

Eh, I guess I'd also like a replacement, since I'm not really good at this and it's not exactly very fun for me.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day One - Replacement Needed!!!
Post by: Jack A T on May 27, 2014, 02:49:36 pm

Well, you two (Fniff and darkpaladin109) gave it a try.  Goodbye, and good luck in your future endeavors.

---

Beginner's games, being primarily meant as an opportunity for people to try the game out with a simple setup and see if they like it, tend to have higher replacement rates than other games.  Some people try the game, determine that it isn't for them, and leave.

At least we'll be getting one replacement soon:

Quote from: Deathsword on May 26, 2014, 06:52:59 pm

So, hey. Back to mafia. I know I said I'd be back only at the end of the year, but things tend to become a lot less hectic when you stop caring too much about real life problems you can't solve. I'll be a bit free-er after next week, so I shot a PM to MOWE so I can replace in the BM and get up to speed with the game again.

---

Unvote.  I'll re-evaluate later today.

---

Tiruin: So, how's that post going?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day One - Replacement Needed!!!
Post by: Tiruin on May 27, 2014, 02:57:51 pm

Quote from: Jack A T on May 27, 2014, 02:49:36 pm

Tiruin: So, how's that post going?

Getting to it.
Net problems earlier :x
Had advice before the many peoples asking for replacement.
Will quote Jim's words in that stead.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day One - Replacement Needed!!!
Post by: Teneb on May 27, 2014, 04:20:09 pm

Well, damn. I replaced in for Scripten (No idea why MOWE hasn't changed the OP or said it here, but I got the role PM), but it's sad to see so many leave at once. I'll give the thread a read and post my views, shouldn't take too long.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day One - Replacement Needed!!!
Post by: borno on May 27, 2014, 04:42:20 pm

Jack A T:

Quote from: Jack A T on May 26, 2014, 06:28:08 pm

borno: My questions (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=138613.msg5310568#msg5310568), please. 

Ah, sorry, I missed them.

Quote from: Jack A T on May 26, 2014, 06:28:08 pm

Quote from: Kansa on May 26, 2014, 05:04:08 pm

To borno: I really don't think personally that tn5421 was buddying rangercado, if they were buddies why would rangercado accuse tn5421 in the first place?

Kansa: That's not what we tend to mean by "buddying."  "Buddying" basically refers to attempts to cozy up to a player, making that player both more friendly to the buddier and easier to convince.

:-[ Well, actually... I was referring to 'buddying' in the same way as Kansa, as in a scum member doesn't want to draw attention to another scum player and so doesn't really attack them at all. What would that be in Mafia terms?

Quote from: Jack A T on May 25, 2014, 01:00:16 pm

borno: I'm going to take a different approach to the issue of alleged buddying.  Why is tn5421 allegedly buddying RangerCado effecting your read of Cado so much?  How exactly does someone you think is scum trying to buddy an attacker make the attacker in question scummier?

Well, I guess if they flip scum then the person they were... whatever the term ising will be cast under suspicion. But right now, it's not really affecting my read of him. I'm just noting it in case tn5421 ever dies and flips scum.
Kansa:

Quote from: Kansa on May 26, 2014, 05:04:08 pm

To borno: I really don't think personally that tn5421 was buddying rangercado, if they were buddies why would rangercado accuse tn5421 in the first place?

Since I think we were talking about the same 'buddying' (who knows anymore?), I think Jack A T's answer still applies. If RangerCado and tn5421 were scum, then they may try to bus eachother to take suspicion off of one of them I guess.
tn5421:
Could you please explain your reasoning behind saying the following?

Quote from: tn5421 on May 22, 2014, 03:30:12 pm

I don't see the need to defend myself at this point in the game, as the people that are voting me are doing so for mainly nonsensical reasons.  Except for RangerCado, I think.

---

Sad to see all these people go, but at least one person is replacing in now. Fun fact: I think that everytime I addressed darkpaladin109, I typed in 'deathsword' instead. Luckily I caught myself eachtime before I posted. I shouldn't have that problem any more now, hopefully.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day One - Replacement Needed!!!
Post by: TheDarkStar on May 27, 2014, 04:44:09 pm

I can Replace if needed (if there's still a spot).

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day One - Replacement Needed!!!
Post by: tn5421 on May 27, 2014, 06:08:17 pm

Because I don't really care about this game's outcome, borno.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Replacement Needed!!!
Post by: Silthuri on May 27, 2014, 08:15:30 pm

Votecount:

• darkpaladin109:
• borno: tn5421, RangerCado (2)
• TheDarkStar:
• Deathsword:
• tn5421: borno (1)
• RangerCado:
• Kansa:
• Jack A T:
• Tiruin:

Not voting: Tiruin, Kansa, darkpaladin109, Jack A T, Deathsword, TheDarkStar

Due to two/three replacements being thrown in at once, day had been mod extended to Thursday at 7 pm EST
There are no more extends available for today!

Deathsword has replaced in for Scripten!
TheDarkStar has replaced in for fniff!
darkpaladin109 has requested replacement!

Quote from: Deathsword on May 27, 2014, 04:20:09 pm

Well, damn. I replaced in for Scripten (No idea why MOWE hasn't changed the OP or said it here, but I got the role PM), but it's sad to see so many leave at once. I'll give the thread a read and post my views, shouldn't take too long.

Because dummy me was waiting for a confirmation PM of some sort...  :-[

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day One - Replacement Needed!!!
Post by: Jack A T on May 27, 2014, 08:32:48 pm

Quote from: borno on May 27, 2014, 04:42:20 pm

:-[ Well, actually... I was referring to 'buddying' in the same way as Kansa, as in a scum member doesn't want to draw attention to another scum player and so doesn't really attack them at all. What would that be in Mafia terms?

borno: Ah, communication failures...
I can't think of a term for that behaviour at the moment, but it definitely happens at times.  Generally, this is something one looks for after one of the scum has flipped.

Now that I know what you meant by "buddying" (you seemed to be arguing based on the definition I gave), I have a new question.  You noted (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=138613.msg5309739#msg5309739), as one of the examples of buddying, that tn5421 mentioned he would like to have RangerCado as a scumbuddy if he was scum.  While you did, later in the post, note that that "doesn't really count," I'm not sure how it counts at all.  Would you be so kind as to explain how that is "buddying" under the definition you used?

---

Alright, let's see what Tiruin, Deathsword, and TheDarkStar post.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day One - Replacement Needed!!!
Post by: TheDarkStar on May 27, 2014, 09:13:50 pm

Let me read this thread; I did not follow it that well before. I'll have a proper reply after that.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day One - Replacement Needed!!!
Post by: borno on May 28, 2014, 02:58:27 am

Jack A T:
Actually, I have no idea how I cam to that conclusion. Looking back it makes no sense, as if they were scum buddies he wouldn't really have any gain from saying that. Maybe it may be your buddying, but not mine. I guess that, at the time I thought that since he was associating with him that they were... I'll just call it 'Scum friending' until someone (Tiruin?) tells me the real term. Strike through that first bit, then.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day One
Post by: Tiruin on May 28, 2014, 10:47:32 am

Hyuuj posht coming.



Cado <3

Quote from: RangerCado on May 19, 2014, 06:41:45 pm

Tiruin:[/b] Whats your take on the roster of players? Anyone you recognize who your going to be keeping an eye on? Potential skill?

I always hold no bias on the roster of players in every game I play in, despite part of my judgement saying otherwise :) (ie If I see {experienced player} and I've an inspect--or rather, something to probably clear ANY {or aid in clearing such} doubt on the player, I don't use it because experience as a primary factor) mainly due to treating other players as myself. AMorphous.
Yet some have some specific tells if metaknowledge is to be used on their alignment--this, I keep quiet in my take, and usually list hints of it in my list of reads later on.
I recognize you, Jack A T, DS, TDS...mainly everyone, to keep an eye on. :P

And on potential skill--I'd put down a universal fact. Everyone has potential. Period. If they choose to grow and learn--commonly seen in those open-minded and willing to analyze both their own styles/beliefs/self and others without bias, then its a sure sign of potential. This is also seen in those people who are narrow minded or close-minded: arguers of their own stance with little change or rather unwilling to look at other's ideas; those that have bias, whether unconsciously realized or not, still have potential.
...
Which means yeah. Everyone has the potential to grow. It's hard to explain despite my background in philosophy or psychology (or rather understanding the human mind).
But yes. Potential. :I

---

Jack; Hi! ^ ^

Quote from: Jack A T on May 19, 2014, 06:28:11 pm

Tiruin: You recently participated in a game with this setup, but without the teaching elements: NSBM 4.  What did you learn from that game that you can apply to this game?

A few facts:
> Attitude is one thing that wins games. If you give up in times of adversity--it does nobody any good. You keep on fighting. And by fighting--I don't necessarily mean 'dirty uncouth RAWRWRWR' fighting.
There are many ways one can fight, even politely.
> Be active.
Nobody won a game by lurking. Except scum. But they've to be active to send in the Factional NK. Generally.
> Communicate.
Talk with peoples. Either interrogating stance or diplomatic/friendly stance to get info? Generally ok. But banter with people? Good! In relation to the game, though, there should be pertinence to your goal. I could ask you | hey Jack A T, what course are you into if in college and what's your favorite ice cream? Also, why ask me a question of personal reflection? It's nice, but I'm curious.
...Those questions are serious though. :p
> Don't give up.
If you're town and everyone is vote vote voting your name name naem, you should realize that as a suspect--one does not give up (yes, this includes and means the 'I give up, replace me' notion). If one dies or is not enjoying the game--then treat it as your last game and do your best according to what you know how is best to do. While that could horribly be misinterpreted, if you swear and cuss and horribly treat people in your last game, then at least we'll know your true colors ^ ^

In all seriousness, regardless of naming and theme, all games are to help you learn and NOT just the BM. The BM is like...the lounge of a great hall of Valhalla wherein all those there get acquainted with the place before they ascend delve deeper into how the game is played--forum Mafia is very different from RL Mafia where you can just go 'NO U' and have a...possibly hearty laugh from it. The BM is an introduction. A prelude for what is to come. Perform and act in ways that will develop yourself and not cause any harm to others (this does NOT mean you should lolynch yourself when you think you've got 'enough training' :I). And forum Mafia in general, is a more...well, in B12 anyway, refined(?) or pleasing for in-depth debating. Here, we cast on roles in regard to our alignments and test ourselves. Out of here, we're all peachy with each other just like best friends :D

Here, we test each other and are tested in turn. Do we lie to achieve our goals? Do we slur and slam the rest with pejoratives or swearing to get what we want? Do we exercise our minds and analyze and talk about what we see? Forum Mafia in B12 is a funny thing--it reflects much more about you than what you initially think, 100% especially so for newbies.

...And I guess that's what I've learned from it.

---

---

Scripten//Replacement for Scripten :o
I'm too late :'(

Quote from: Scripten on May 19, 2014, 07:22:00 pm

Everybody: Since this is a beginner's game, it's more likely that well-used scumtells will be less effective. What strategies do you think would be best in a situation like this, where players may not know what actions to avoid and which ones to look out for?

Really?
What if I tell you right now that I'm the Mafia Rolecop? I'm employing the scumtell of lying, but you could see it in two ways. I'm lying because I am Mafia (not necessarily the Rolecop--those are minor things you have to learn to detect when thinking about such matters in scumhunting) or I'm provoking thought in challenging your statement, or both.

But matters first. Why will well-used scumtells be...'less effective'?
What well used ones do you speak of? I feel like the reason you're asking this is to better understand the concept o_o
Wherein I usually put forward the card of 'use/treat with best discretion', but I'll try explaining it best.

Stuffs like lying or rolefishing or whatever-ever-ever scumtell, and in generally every scumtell is a scumtell because of the context. Lying is a universal scumtell--but if done in the right context, could not be a scumtell (and EVEN a towntell! :O), like say in Massclaims.

Spoiler: Take this for example (click to show/hide)

MASSCLAIM AHOY. Usually on Day 3 because by then, it's a MYLO/LYLO for town! D:
Let's put this in a regular game setting.

Tiruin: I'm a Redirector,
N1: I did not act because [reasons]
N2: I redirected Webadict to ToonyMan. Why? [reasons]

Webadict: [Confirmatory response]

Tiruin: AHA, you lie Webadict! I'm actually a Watcher and saw you target Vector!
Vector: *is dead during N2*
Webadict: [presumed response]: :O

Like dat.
It is also good to append an answer to an invisible 'why' at certain points of answering a question--though without a direct 'Why', someone can get away with missing some details.

Though here? We're to teach you what may be a problem in how you play and/or train you how to play if you're totally lost.
COmmunication is linear in as much as it is vast. There's a tactic called 'Tracing' which is usually done on D2~ to see the cause of some stuffs [who is scum//vote patterns//comparing what x said to what x is doing...]

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day One - Replacement Needed!!!
Post by: Tiruin on May 28, 2014, 11:36:22 am

PS: One should add the term 'EBWOP' into the BM dictionary.
*nudges MOWE* ;p
Also, as a general rule, VOTING SOMEONE WITHIN SPOILERS OR WITHIN QUOTES IS NOT SOMETHING GOOD TO DO DESPITE BEING TECHNICALLY 'OK' because the mod can miss it.
...I know. That happened before :x

Also as a general note, in posts with horizontal rules, stuffs in the first part are mostly humor-ish//have that tone for me.

Quote from: Jack A T on May 19, 2014, 07:55:50 pm

On asking questions directed to "Everybody"/"Everyone": This is not the best idea, as people tend to miss these.

Not really, if bolded and being the only thing in a post :P

Quote from: Jack A T on May 19, 2014, 08:11:01 pm

An additional note on evaluating newbie actions: This is why I asked all the beginners except tn5421 (who has the info in his sig) about their previous Mafia experience.[...]

*looks at question asked to self*
Tiruin has attained Beginner status! \o/
Achievement, get!

---

tn5421

Quote from: tn5421 on May 19, 2014, 10:45:04 pm

Tiruin

Don't dodge the question.

Wasn't dodging it :x Was making a quick-off reply towards Jack because my memory is fishy at times.

...Then RL kicked in. >_>
Yeah.

Quote from: tn5421 on May 20, 2014, 08:08:19 pm

@Everyone: How do you feel about our chances of finding and lynching a member of the scum team day one?

Depending on how we're doing it. I don't find much merit in statistics or such regarding the D1 lynch though--its more of a situational case if its scum.

---

Darkpaladin109

Quote from: darkpaladin109 on May 20, 2014, 10:32:49 am

Everyone: Who would be your ideal scum buddy, and why?

,,,This is a hard question for me. >.>
I'd say Toaster because he was my Scum IC teacher back in the days...
And he's an orange appliance. Because he's an orange appliance.
^{But it's more of him being a good teacher and such. He also has a nice planning mechanism and a solid way of teaching and playing Mafia.}
Why'd you ask this?-
...
Ahh, sure. Replacement :/
 :-\
Though if you're a replacement, you can still play in and unless the Moderator has found a suitable replacee.

...So you're technically still playing despite having asked for a replacement.

---

Right. Looking at recent events now.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day One - Replacement Needed!!!
Post by: Silthuri on May 28, 2014, 11:52:59 am

Quote from: Tiruin on May 28, 2014, 11:36:22 am

PS: One should add the term 'EBWOP' into the BM dictionary.
*nudges MOWE* ;p

Editededd.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day One - Replacement Needed!!!
Post by: Tiruin on May 28, 2014, 02:02:22 pm

Everyone: What is the most confusing thing regarding Mafia that you have trouble with dealing, while playing, in this game, now? Do you wish to question it in public? Could you state it, if so?

Post-typing everythingelse edit: If the replaced people can, please answer the above too.

---

---

So I'll give my reflection in a list of reads (yes this was formatted thanks to MOWE's votecount :P):

    darkpaladin109: Out of seven posts in-game, 'e started shaky, unsure, but seemingly has previous experience (unless this is his first time [and it seemingly is by my memory]) given the last paragraph here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=138613.msg5295563#msg5295563). {You're not bad at Mafia :I} And given his posts, I'd say that there is no malevolence on his part if the lack of content (in regard to personal communique) = scumtell, with said emphasis being his note to the vote here, (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=138613.msg5305144#msg5305144) and I could infer the justification here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=138613.msg5316471#msg5316471)...but to get a better view, I'd appreciate an answer to the Everyone thing above. There is brevity, and I'm unsure if its lack of knowledge of play, or if he was...pushed too hard and got info too fast? Happens to newbies when we're usually doing this trial by fire. Some are totally lost on what to do and go with the best thing possible. Here, it doesn't feel like he's refraining or anything that says 'I'm scum and I don't know what to do', but the same could be said on 'I'm town but how do I scumhunt?'

So null.

---

    borno: I see the votes on him, and judge by their context. Vote pattern on, this is my basis (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=138613.msg5301278#msg5301278) [posts prior are..well, mostly feeling neutral to me]. He's calculating, analyzing and comparing his view on tn in a holistic manner, though that one point of tn's opinion is missed (ie He didn't ask why tn stated his suspicion like such, but jumped on him. While this could be easily explained as reaction testing...feels like a minor point). Though its not much to make a deal out of given the... feeling(?)/thought of the post.

Null
borno: Why, exactly, are you voting for tn? Compared to everyone else, why him?

---

    TheDarkStar/fniff: TDS hasn't posted yet other than interest, so this is all fniff!
By his 8 posts, it seems...that I'm a horrible teacher and should give up my life goal of helping people that clarifications must ensue (Null read by the way).
Fniff is quite astute in his answers: very reasonable in their case as to what a role power would do in several instances with a good grasp on the situation, while I am suspicious on this one point (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=138613.msg5295421#msg5295421) wherein he says 'the Mafia are new' (considering that even the ICs can be scum) [cont (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=138613.msg5296056#msg5296056)] {fin (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=138613.msg5299222#msg5299222)}, it may either be a slip or just an offhand gesture at the idea. T'would be strange, now that I think of it, if it were a scumslip, though he may have just forgotten, hence only suspicion. His level-headed attitude is admirable regarding seeing individuality over the mental composure of the mob and hypothetical LYNCH-rioteer situation.

Null to Town-leaning.

Also I'm sad to see you go... (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=138613.msg5303222#msg5303222)though to clarify, the note of questioning and such is to set up a conversation--most players go off a hinge and deal with it as a serious thing, and it is, but not so much that we begin playing a 'interrogator/interrogated' game. It is an idea set up to provoke communication, with differences in how it is implemented.

@fniff...Also you seriously need to post in the RTD Testing thread >_> You did sign up for my experiment..right? Or..did I take too long between turns? I in the least would request feedback, thanks. Or note to 'be auto'd by GM' would do.

---

    scripten/Deathsword: Y'need to post more buddy. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=138613.msg5316834#msg5316834)  :P
On that note, hope everything is OK in South America!
On scripten: Of his 5 posts, noted (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=138613.msg5293766#msg5293766) to be is the background...Sprint isn't...muchly very well good for completely new players. For new players with a  background, sure, given that they've built their two feet for knowing all this, but not new players in that case, though a game is worth experience and if you choose to learn from it. I am very happy to see his reaction to it positively. That's a good attitude to have.
He's open-minded, and possesses a clarity of perspective in detailing what he wants to say, furthered here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=138613.msg5294156#msg5294156) in honesty in regard to being new and so on here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=138613.msg5300875#msg5300875)...thhough I've to question

Quote

I feel like the power roles would be at more risk of night kills

given that that is a...role instead of any person or term related to a person in particular and why it was mentioned if at all. Then stuff cut off.  :(

Null-town-ish-leaning.
Primarily because I like how you...are(?)



[cont]

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day One - Replacement Needed!!!
Post by: TheDarkStar on May 28, 2014, 03:17:16 pm

Time for my reads, based on reading the thread. Also, if Darkpaladin gets modkilled, it's MYLO.

darkpaladin109: Null read due to inactivity. I'll probably ask more things to his replacement if there is one.
borno: Active, but tunneling. Slight scum lean. If scum, then RangerCado is probably also scum.
TheDarkStar: Confirmed town for me  ;D.
Deathsword: Scripten was inactive, so null read for now.
tn5421: Slight scum lean due to odd behavior, but (as Jack says) that could be unrelated to scumminess. If scum, then Jack A T is probably also scum.
RangerCado: Slight scum lean. Possibly borno's scumbuddy if borno is scum.
Kansa: Just started being active, but there isn't any reason to suspect him. Slight town lean.
Jack A T: Slight scum lean due to waving away problems with tn5421's argument. Probably tn5421's scumbuddy if tn5421 is scum.
Tiruin: Active now, and was inactive due to RL. Town lean.

I'll detail the reasons for why I think Jack A T and RangerCado are scum later, but at least one if not two of the scum are in the list of tn5421, borno, Jack A T, and RangerCado.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day One - Replacement Needed!!!
Post by: Teneb on May 28, 2014, 03:40:05 pm

Quote from: Tiruin on May 28, 2014, 02:02:22 pm

scripten/Deathsword: Y'need to post more buddy. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=138613.msg5316834#msg5316834)

I ate something yesterday that... well, let's just say the result wasn't exactly good.

Quote from: Tiruin on May 28, 2014, 02:02:22 pm

On that note, hope everything is OK in South America!

World Cup still a few weeks away, which is when the metaphorical feces will hit the fan. Still, thanks for the thought.

Quote from: tn5421 on May 27, 2014, 06:08:17 pm

Because I don't really care about this game's outcome, borno.

Might I ask why?

Well, from the looks of it this game has been going kind of slowly. Some questions so I can get some reads on players:

Borno: How much do you think you've learned about the game since those BMs so many(two, I think) years ago? What are your reads on the ICs?

Cado: How scummy do you consider buddying to be, seeing as there were accusations you were involved in the act?

PPE:

Quote from: TheDarkStar on May 28, 2014, 03:17:16 pm

borno: Active, but tunneling. Slight scum lean. If scum, then RangerCado is probably also scum.
tn5421: Slight scum lean due to odd behavior, but (as Jack says) that could be unrelated to scumminess. If scum, then Jack A T is probably also scum.
RangerCado: Slight scum lean. Possibly borno's scumbuddy if borno is scum.
Jack A T: Slight scum lean due to waving away problems with tn5421's argument. Probably tn5421's scumbuddy if tn5421 is scum

Could you also elaborate on why you basically created two possible scumteams there? (bolded relevant parts). Why would the scum team be, say, borno and Cado instead of borno and Jack?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day One - Replacement Needed!!!
Post by: Jack A T on May 28, 2014, 04:07:13 pm

Quote from: Tiruin on May 28, 2014, 11:36:22 am

*looks at question asked to self*
Tiruin has attained Beginner status! \o/
Achievement, get!

Tiruin: Well, you are certainly a beginner (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=133728.0) of games (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=126082.0).

Quote from: Tiruin on May 28, 2014, 10:47:32 am

... hey Jack A T, what course are you into if in college and what's your favorite ice cream? Also, why ask me a question of personal reflection? It's nice, but I'm curious.

I'm studying political science (major) and criminology (minor).  Over the summer, I'm taking one course, a political science one titled "Globalization and the Canadian State."  I lack a favourite ice cream flavour, due to the massive field of choices and my rejection of the idea that one must have a favourite thing in every category.

On my question to you: During RVS, I tend to focus on learning about my fellow players, and how they think, more than anything else.  That way, my RVS questions get information of significant use later in the game.  In this case, I decided to see what you got out of a game we both are quite familiar with, in part to see how it effected your play and in part to see how we differ in our views of the same events.

Quote from: Tiruin on May 28, 2014, 02:02:22 pm

    TheDarkStar/fniff: [...] while I am suspicious on this one point (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=138613.msg5295421#msg5295421) wherein he says 'the Mafia are new' (considering that even the ICs can be scum) [cont (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=138613.msg5296056#msg5296056)] {fin (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=138613.msg5299222#msg5299222)}, it may either be a slip or just an offhand gesture at the idea. T'would be strange, now that I think of it, if it were a scumslip, though he may have just forgotten, hence only suspicion.

What do you make of Fniff's statement (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=138613.msg5299222#msg5299222) that he didn't know the ICs were players?

I await the rest of your reads.

---

TheDarkStar: Interesting reads.  I await your detailed reasoning regarding RangerCado and I.
A few questions:
*Why the search for full scumteams this early?
*How sure are you of the two possible scumteams you see?  As in, if one player you suspect flipped scum, how sure would you be that their hypothetical associate is scum?
*You gave basic reasons for each of your reads except (possibly) one.  Do you lean towards Tiruin being town due to her RL-caused inactivity and her turn towards activity?  If not, why do you lean towards her being town?
*I'd like to see detailed reasons for your scum leans on borno and tn5421 as well, please.

---

Deathsword: Alright.  Based on what you've seen in the thread so far, do you have any reads on anyone?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day One - Replacement Needed!!!
Post by: Jack A T on May 28, 2014, 04:09:51 pm

EBWOP

Quote from: Tiruin on May 28, 2014, 02:02:22 pm

Everyone: What is the most confusing thing regarding Mafia that you have trouble with dealing, while playing, in this game, now? Do you wish to question it in public? Could you state it, if so?

Tiruin: Newbies.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day One - Replacement Needed!!!
Post by: LARD on May 28, 2014, 05:44:06 pm

As a newbie, I can replace.
Ooh a replacement storm, this ought to be interesting.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day One - Replacement Needed!!!
Post by: Silthuri on May 28, 2014, 05:52:30 pm

Quote from: LARD on May 28, 2014, 05:44:06 pm

As a newbie, I can replace.
Ooh a replacement storm, this ought to be interesting.

Awesome! Role PM incoming.

Also, Day has been mod extended another 24 hours and will end Friday at 7 pm EST. This will be the final mod extend.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day One - Replacement Needed!!!
Post by: Silthuri on May 28, 2014, 05:59:27 pm

Just to make it formal:

LARD has replaced darkpaladin109.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day One - Replacement Needed!!!
Post by: Jack A T on May 28, 2014, 06:04:50 pm

LARD: When you're ready, I'd like to see your thoughts on the game so far, including reads.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day One - Replacement Needed!!!
Post by: LARD on May 28, 2014, 07:20:31 pm

Here's my first and rather impulsive post:

Man, replacing into games is annoying, I like a good rvs. Oh well. Sorry if my knowledge of previous posts is not up to standard. I will try to read in depth more.

I did a quick read through and I think that tn5421 is still the most likely scum because of the way he freaked out so much when a bit of pressure was put on him.  I don't know if he's a completely new player, but I actually agree with 4maskwolf's practice of not lynching complete new players in the first day.  In addition, I feel that the presence of an unbalancing force like a hothead, irrational player or just someone with a different playing style can be very good for the town. I feel like I played that part in my previous BM, at least for the first bit, and I got lynched for my troubles.

Jack: seems to be almost running the show, or maybe that's just because you're the most active IC.

Those who replaced I feel are less likely to be scum because scum is a fun role to play, and if I were a scum, I would focus my energies and be quite active in that game.

A few general questions to help me get up to speed.
1. Are we still in RVS or should I be more careful with my vote?
2. Is there anything outstandingly abnormal I should know here?


A few more direct questions
Jack: You seem to be spending a large amount of your time commenting on other peoples questions. This makes it seem like you are pushing attention to other people's problems.  I guess you never want to attract too much attention to yourself, but it does seem like you are pushing random people without any order.  I know your vote is on me, or my predecessor for things like lurking and I'd rather not have the most active and trusted player breathing down my neck. The question is this: What do you plan to do with me now that I have replaced Darkpaladin and what were your suspicions on him.

Quote from: tn5421 on May 27, 2014, 06:08:17 pm

Because I don't really care about this game's outcome, borno.

This is not good, to fix problem read this (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=76609.0) and do not emulate.  Not only is it hilarious, but it provides a great example of what not to do. I read it many times before I stopped laughing.  Anyway, do not loose heart. Things are not as bad as they seem but they can always get worse.

Borno: You seem to be reacting strongly to Cado's accusations.  Everybody has been throwing votes and random stuff around like confetti here. Most people seem to think that being defensive is a rather strong scumtell, and you seem to have an omgus here.

Quote from: borno on May 25, 2014, 04:32:10 pm

RangerCado:

Quote from: RangerCado on May 25, 2014, 11:16:38 am

borno: For the tn5421 situation, probably because I wasn't using his anger and frustration as evidence. And thats not buddying to me. To me, thats more stating he thought I had the only somewhat valid case on him.

And not seeing a scummy person is NO reason to not be questioning and hunting people. So yes, my point is valid. So whats your next reason for not questioning others borno?

Uh, yes you did.

Quote from: RangerCado on May 22, 2014, 09:40:56 am

Quote from: tn5421 on May 21, 2014, 07:22:07 pm

-cut irrelevant bits-
You go right ahead and lynch me day one, it doesn't make a bit of difference to me.

...REALLY!? Town shouldn't try to hard to keep themselves, but this is just... WHY!? Vote tn5421.

Your only point against him is something he said... While very angry and frustrated at Jack A T's vote. Also, I believe that it is buddying or perhaps defending?
While I'm attacking someone, I usually focus my attention on them and ask questions to others when I see something scummy. So, that's my reason for not questioning anyone while I was attacking tn5421. I guess that now that I've stopped attacking him, I'll ask questions to others.

You try to back up your attacks on your attacker with evidence, but it really isn't that strong.
This also

Quote from: borno on May 23, 2014, 05:38:37 pm

tn5421, since you continue to refuse to defend yourself, I'll just leave my vote here until you prove to me that I can take it off.

This is also a bad thing. He has already proved that he will likely do nothing unless we attempt to win the game and drag him along with us. Your vote has more useful places than on him. I agree that he is probably mafia, but I he is typical of depressed new player under fire as exemplified in Kingmaker IV.

 I will get a couple of chances to revote before day end but for now Borno, you're it. I like to leave my gate firing.
(MyOwnWorstEnemy If this hammers, disregard vote. How many to hammer?)
Other than that it just seems to be a normal D1

Ask important questions posed to darkpaladin to me directly please, if it's not too much to ask.  But please leave out any useless RVS questions. Sorry if I missed yours.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day One - Replacement Needed!!!
Post by: tn5421 on May 28, 2014, 08:14:46 pm

@Tiruin, #192: Yeah, I'm aware, but I wasn't when I made that post.

@Tiruin, #194: What does 'holistic' mean?

@Tiruin, #195: This is an interesting conclusion.

It is possible that Jack A T is whiteknighting (protecting) me to subtly paint me as scum without being overt like borno, I suppose.  I don't really understand why you're trying to make associative scumteams pre-flip, though.

@LARD: 9 alive means 5 to hammer
We're more or less out of RVS.
I'm about to play other games; I'll get back to your intro post later.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day One - Replacement Needed!!!
Post by: Jack A T on May 28, 2014, 09:14:15 pm

Quote from: LARD on May 28, 2014, 07:20:31 pm

A few general questions to help me get up to speed.
1. Are we still in RVS or should I be more careful with my vote?
2. Is there anything outstandingly abnormal I should know here?

LARD:
1. RVS has been over for a while now.
2. We've been playing, until today, with only about half of the players.

Quote from: LARD on May 28, 2014, 07:20:31 pm

I will get a couple of chances to revote before day end but for now Borno, you're it. I like to leave my gate firing.
(MyOwnWorstEnemy If this hammers, disregard vote. How many to hammer?)

No hammers in Beginner's Mafia.

Quote from: LARD on May 28, 2014, 07:20:31 pm

Those who replaced I feel are less likely to be scum because scum is a fun role to play, and if I were a scum, I would focus my energies and be quite active in that game.

I don't think this applies as well here as it does in other games.  Scripten left because he had no internet access, which has no connection to alignment.  Fniff was a first time player who found the game wasn't for him.  Darkpaladin, while having a bit more experience, felt the same way.  Scum's only very fun if one finds mafia to be fun in the first place.

---

Quote from: LARD on May 28, 2014, 07:20:31 pm

Jack: You seem to be spending a large amount of your time commenting on other peoples questions. This makes it seem like you are pushing attention to other people's problems.

One, this is Mafia.  I'm supposed to examine what other people are doing, and try to get what evidence I can out of it.  That includes asking people about the questions they ask.
Two, I'm an IC.  That means I'm supposed to do even more commenting on what people do and ask.

Quote from: LARD on May 28, 2014, 07:20:31 pm

I guess you never want to attract too much attention to yourself, but it does seem like you are pushing random people without any order.

Low-activity game full of newbies.  I'm trying to get whatever I can out of the players, to better determine their alignments.  I had also been trying to get players to act at all.  That means pushing people who do pushworthy actions, among other things.

Quote from: LARD on May 28, 2014, 07:20:31 pm

I know your vote is on me, or my predecessor for things like lurking and I'd rather not have the most active and trusted player breathing down my neck. The question is this: What do you plan to do with me now that I have replaced Darkpaladin and what were your suspicions on him.

It's not on you. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=138613.msg5316518#msg5316518)  I unvoted when he requested a replacement, recognizing that his reasons neutralized the high lurkiness issue he had.  My non-voting has continued with the sudden gain of 4 players.  My vote was primarily to pressure darkpaladin to act.

Now, I intend to improve my read of you.

A few questions:
*You seem rather nervous about my vote.  What is it about that vote, when nobody else had been voting you/your predecessor, that made you so nervous about it?
*What are your reads on players other than me, tn5421, and borno?
*You stated around the start of your post that you suspect tn5421 the most due to his breakdown under fire.  However, later in your post, you write this as part of your attack on borno (formatting added by me):

Quote from: LARD on May 28, 2014, 07:20:31 pm

This is also a bad thing. He [tn5421] has already proved that he will likely do nothing unless we attempt to win the game and drag him along with us. Your vote has more useful places than on him. I agree that he is probably mafia, but I he is typical of depressed new player under fire as exemplified in Kingmaker IV.

The underlined sentence is written with the assumption that he is town, and you downplay the issue of tn5421's breakdown under fire, saying his play is "typical of depressed new player under fire."  You also push for borno to not vote tn5421, based on that, while mildly saying you think tn is scum.

Please explain.  Please also give more detail regarding your thoughts on tn and borno.

---

tn5421: Alright, you seem to have calmed down at least a slight bit.  What are your current thoughts on borno?  Can you summarize your current evidence (sans the stuff about an RVS question you didn't like the wording of) against him, if any?  What are your reads on everyone else?

Also, #195 was TheDarkStar, not Tiruin.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day One
Post by: Jack A T on May 28, 2014, 09:15:03 pm

EBWOP: Also, LARD, please summarize your previous mafia experience, whether on or off this forum.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day One
Post by: Silthuri on May 28, 2014, 09:36:39 pm

Votecount:

• LARD:
• borno: tn5421, RangerCado, LARD (3)
• TheDarkStar:
• Deathsword:
• tn5421: borno (1)
• RangerCado:
• Kansa:
• Jack A T:
• Tiruin:

Not voting: Tiruin, Kansa, Jack A T, Deathsword, TheDarkStar

Day ends Friday at 7 pm EST
There are no more extends available for today!

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day One - Replacement Needed!!!
Post by: borno on May 29, 2014, 03:13:45 am

Tiruin:
Glad to see you here.

Quote from: Tiruin on May 28, 2014, 02:02:22 pm

Everyone: What is the most confusing thing regarding Mafia that you have trouble with dealing, while playing, in this game, now? Do you wish to question it in public? Could you state it, if so?

tn5421 not defending himself. It confuses me beyond no end; he is being lazy (scumtell) evasive (scumtell) and uncooperative (scumtell), for what reason? To one-up me or something? I don't understand, and he's holding the whole game up because of it.

Quote from: Tiruin on May 28, 2014, 02:02:22 pm

borno: Why, exactly, are you voting for tn? Compared to everyone else, why him?

Because, as I've stated before, he's refusing to defend. I'm putting my vote on him to try and get him to do something, but all he is posting is sentence long half baked posts. And not even often, either.
TheDarkStar:

Quote from: TheDarkStar on May 28, 2014, 03:17:16 pm

darkpaladin109: Null read due to inactivity. I'll probably ask more things to his replacement if there is one.
borno: Active, but tunneling. Slight scum lean. If scum, then RangerCado is probably also scum.
TheDarkStar: Confirmed town for me  ;D.
Deathsword: Scripten was inactive, so null read for now.
tn5421: Slight scum lean due to odd behavior, but (as Jack says) that could be unrelated to scumminess. If scum, then Jack A T is probably also scum.
RangerCado: Slight scum lean. Possibly borno's scumbuddy if borno is scum.
Kansa: Just started being active, but there isn't any reason to suspect him. Slight town lean.
Jack A T: Slight scum lean due to waving away problems with tn5421's argument. Probably tn5421's scumbuddy if tn5421 is scum.
Tiruin: Active now, and was inactive due to RL. Town lean.

I don't know why I'm still being considered to be 'tunneling'. I've stopped attacking tn5421 as I have hit the magma sea and he has refused to say anything more. Also, I don't know how you got the impression that if I'm scum I'm probably buddies with RangerCado. Please enlighten.
tn5421:
Firstly, could you please use the quote function? It makes it hard to see which part of the post you are referring to, especially with giant WoTs like Tiruin's.
Secondly, when's that defence post coming along? You're slowing the entire game down.
LARD:

Quote from: LARD on May 28, 2014, 07:20:31 pm

Those who replaced I feel are less likely to be scum because scum is a fun role to play, and if I were a scum, I would focus my energies and be quite active in that game.

Not necessarily. Maybe for people who are more comfortable playing Mafia, but for new players being scum can be a nerve-wracking experience-one that they may like to avoid.

Quote from: LARD on May 28, 2014, 07:20:31 pm

Borno: You seem to be reacting strongly to Cado's accusations.  Everybody has been throwing votes and random stuff around like confetti here. Most people seem to think that being defensive is a rather strong scumtell, and you seem to have an omgus here.

Quote from: borno on May 25, 2014, 04:32:10 pm

RangerCado:

Quote from: RangerCado on May 25, 2014, 11:16:38 am

borno: For the tn5421 situation, probably because I wasn't using his anger and frustration as evidence. And thats not buddying to me. To me, thats more stating he thought I had the only somewhat valid case on him.

And not seeing a scummy person is NO reason to not be questioning and hunting people. So yes, my point is valid. So whats your next reason for not questioning others borno?

Uh, yes you did.

Quote from: RangerCado on May 22, 2014, 09:40:56 am

Quote from: tn5421 on May 21, 2014, 07:22:07 pm

-cut irrelevant bits-
You go right ahead and lynch me day one, it doesn't make a bit of difference to me.

...REALLY!? Town shouldn't try to hard to keep themselves, but this is just... WHY!? Vote tn5421.

Your only point against him is something he said... While very angry and frustrated at Jack A T's vote. Also, I believe that it is buddying or perhaps defending?
While I'm attacking someone, I usually focus my attention on them and ask questions to others when I see something scummy. So, that's my reason for not questioning anyone while I was attacking tn5421. I guess that now that I've stopped attacking him, I'll ask questions to others.

You try to back up your attacks on your attacker with evidence, but it really isn't that strong.

Wait, wha? How's that an OMGUS? An OMGUS is, by the first post's definition:

Quote from: First Post

OMGUS - Oh My God U Suck, a vote on someone else simply because they voted or attacked you

I didn't vote RangerCado, so it isn't an OMGUS.
I don't believe I'm believe I'm being overly defensive either. I'm defending myself *cough* unlike some people *cough*, but by showing him how his points are incorrect instead of yelling and thrashing. That would likely be defending, and not what I'm doing.

Quote from: LARD on May 28, 2014, 07:20:31 pm

This also

Quote from: borno on May 23, 2014, 05:38:37 pm

tn5421, since you continue to refuse to defend yourself, I'll just leave my vote here until you prove to me that I can take it off.

This is also a bad thing. He has already proved that he will likely do nothing unless we attempt to win the game and drag him along with us. Your vote has more useful places than on him. I agree that he is probably mafia, but I he is typical of depressed new player under fire as exemplified in Kingmaker IV.

How's that a bad thing? And it's a pressure vote; it is in the most useful place it can be. Unless if you have someone in mind who I should be voting? If he gets lynched for stubbornly refusing to defend himself, so be it.
Also-Wait, hold up. You agree that he is probably mafia, yet right after you say he is a depressed new player. What? Which is he? Scum or newb town?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day One - Replacement Needed!!!
Post by: Tiruin on May 29, 2014, 03:17:45 am

PFP, also second half of my big post up there cont'd.

Quote from: borno on May 29, 2014, 03:13:45 am

Tiruin:
Glad to see you here.

Quote from: Tiruin on May 28, 2014, 02:02:22 pm

Everyone: What is the most confusing thing regarding Mafia that you have trouble with dealing, while playing, in this game, now? Do you wish to question it in public? Could you state it, if so?

tn5421 not defending himself. It confuses me beyond no end; he is being lazy (scumtell) evasive (scumtell) and uncooperative (scumtell), for what reason? To one-up me or something? I don't understand, and he's holding the whole game up because of it.

Quote from: Tiruin on May 28, 2014, 02:02:22 pm

borno: Why, exactly, are you voting for tn? Compared to everyone else, why him?

Because, as I've stated before, he's refusing to defend. I'm putting my vote on him to try and get him to do something, but all he is posting is sentence long half baked posts. And not even often, either.

Did you ask him these things based on your observations?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day One - Replacement Needed!!!
Post by: borno on May 29, 2014, 04:17:17 am

Tiruin:

Quote from: Tiruin on May 29, 2014, 03:17:45 am

PFP, also second half of my big post up there cont'd.

Quote from: borno on May 29, 2014, 03:13:45 am

Tiruin:
Glad to see you here.

Quote from: Tiruin on May 28, 2014, 02:02:22 pm

Everyone: What is the most confusing thing regarding Mafia that you have trouble with dealing, while playing, in this game, now? Do you wish to question it in public? Could you state it, if so?

tn5421 not defending himself. It confuses me beyond no end; he is being lazy (scumtell) evasive (scumtell) and uncooperative (scumtell), for what reason? To one-up me or something? I don't understand, and he's holding the whole game up because of it.

Quote from: Tiruin on May 28, 2014, 02:02:22 pm

borno: Why, exactly, are you voting for tn? Compared to everyone else, why him?

Because, as I've stated before, he's refusing to defend. I'm putting my vote on him to try and get him to do something, but all he is posting is sentence long half baked posts. And not even often, either.

Did you ask him these things based on your observations?

Yes. I saw he was scummy, he refused to defend, and so I asked him to defend, if that was what you were asking. I feel like I may have misinterpreted your question somehow, though.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day One - Replacement Needed!!!
Post by: borno on May 29, 2014, 04:30:01 am

EBWOP:
Deathsword:

Quote from: Deathsword on May 28, 2014, 03:40:05 pm

Borno: How much do you think you've learned about the game since those BMs so many(two, I think) years ago? What are your reads on the ICs?

Sorry, I was sure that I had missed a question somewhere, and I was right. I think that what I learned most from my previous mafia experiences is to keep calm, as anger just gets in the way of things.
On the ICs: I don't think they've really done anything to give me much of a read. Jack A T has been helpful and active, but that's his job as an IC. For Tiruin I'm still waiting before she posts more before making a definite read.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day One
Post by: RangerCado on May 29, 2014, 09:30:29 am

...I kinda... forgot about this... I feel bad.

Quote from: borno on May 26, 2014, 04:47:03 pm

-snip-

Borno: I still don't see how thats buddying. I felt no attempt at trying to win my favor with that. Therefore, I didn't call him out on it which means its not really buddying.

Quote from: Kansa on May 26, 2014, 05:04:08 pm

To borno: I really don't think personally that tn5421 was buddying rangercado, if they were buddies why would rangercado accuse tn5421 in the first place?

Kansa: Oh theres MANY reasons too. Deflection, diversion, to avoid seeming like there is buddying going on. The list goes on of potential reasons I WOULD do so if I were scum. Busing is also a thing.

Quote from: borno on May 27, 2014, 04:42:20 pm

Well, I guess if they flip scum then the person they were... whatever the term ising will be cast under suspicion. But right now, it's not really affecting my read of him. I'm just noting it in case tn5421 ever dies and flips scum.

borno: This, the bolded especially, makes me suspicious. You've been pushing for a lynch against tn5421 for most of the day, but this makes me believe that you don't think that others will either A: See his scumminess, of B: You don't fully think he's scummy. Thoughts?

Quote from: Tiruin on May 28, 2014, 02:02:22 pm

Everyone: What is the most confusing thing regarding Mafia that you have trouble with dealing, while playing, in this game, now? Do you wish to question it in public? Could you state it, if so?

Tiruin: My biggest thing has always been trying to find the reasoning behind odd behavior by players in a game. Not all can be scum, and a lot of the time, this behavior has a reason and positive motif. Its difficult to catch the hidden reasons, rather than the obvious 'this is weird, press cause it might be scummy!' mentality.

Quote from: Deathsword on May 28, 2014, 03:40:05 pm

Cado: How scummy do you consider buddying to be, seeing as there were accusations you were involved in the act?

Death: You'd have to take it on a case by case basis a lot of the time, but in a beginners game? I would say a lot smaller than in other games for the simple fact that someone in a different and unfamiliar environment is likely to try and find a friend or ally they can get to trust them that will help them out a bit. Its like when you go to a new school and the first thing you do is try and find your old friends, or attempt to find a new one. If it were anything BUT a beginners game, I would be more suspicious. And I still don't think he was in fact trying to buddy me.

Whats your take on buddying, if I may ask as well?

I await Tiruin's big post for more information, TheDarkStar's reads explanation, and some more activity from the replacements.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day One - Replacement Needed!!!
Post by: LARD on May 29, 2014, 09:47:43 am

Quote from: Jack A T on May 28, 2014, 09:14:15 pm

A few questions:
*You seem rather nervous about my vote.  What is it about that vote, when nobody else had been voting you/your predecessor, that made you so nervous about it?
*What are your reads on players other than me, tn5421, and borno?
*You stated around the start of your post that you suspect tn5421 the most due to his breakdown under fire.  However, later in your post, you write this as part of your attack on borno (formatting added by me):

Quote from: LARD on May 28, 2014, 07:20:31 pm

This is also a bad thing. He [tn5421] has already proved that he will likely do nothing unless we attempt to win the game and drag him along with us. Your vote has more useful places than on him. I agree that he is probably mafia, but I he is typical of depressed new player under fire as exemplified in Kingmaker IV.

The underlined sentence is written with the assumption that he is town, and you downplay the issue of tn5421's breakdown under fire, saying his play is "typical of depressed new player under fire."  You also push for borno to not vote tn5421, based on that, while mildly saying you think tn is scum.

Please explain.  Please also give more detail regarding your thoughts on tn and borno.

I was nervous about your vote because as the IC and the most active player, people tend to listen to you and whether they admit it or not, people listen to your opinions about who is scum as well as how to play the game.

My point was that I like to have unbalancing forces in the game, such as an edgy player like tn5421.  I didn't vote him even though I think he's scum because of this and that he seems like he could learn a lot from surviving.  People don't learn if you kill them straight away.  That being said, I had forgotten that borno is quite a new player (right?) and so it was rather unkind of me to vote like that. That being said, he is quite eloquent and is playing well, so I consider him a more valid target.

The borno and tn situation could mean one of a few things,
1. tn is scum and just getting used to it. If that is the case, then the breakdown under pressure makes sense.
2. borno is scum and targeting the easy player. Personally I find this more likely just due to the fact that the play-style of tn is more typical of a depressed new player (see KM IV) than of a scum, but it is so hard to tell.
3. neither of them are scum. Just borno targeting a suspicious person and things happening the way they should. I don't think this is likely, but it sure is more likely than point 4.

The third point was just me asking borno to reconsider the usefulness of his vote.  He is attacking the easy target and tunneled on him until it became clear that others disapproved of it.

Spoiler: My previous mafia experience (click to show/hide)

 I have played one BM here, (BM XLV, the terminators town win, me lynched) and also a ton of the game "The Resistance" by indie boards and cards.  I think I'm okay at the game, but perhaps not with the house rules.

Now to Borno
1. You are correct, it isn't an OMGUS, my apologies. That was just a bit of pressure from me about you being overly defensive.
2. I still disagree that the most useful place for your vote is on tn5421. (tn5421  if you are reading this, prove me wrong, please.)
3. tn5421 is just being a bit overdefensive, and I don't think that it's a scumtell.  We find the scumtells later by how people respond to him.

Reads and stuff if no read, just assume null because of likely low activity
Kansa: posting short things and mostly just answering questions. Like he's not fishing for information.
Tiruin: No idea what to make of her, just massive piles of post to sift through.  My last game I tried to lead a lynch on her only to find she wasn't scum. Such is life.  I generally get reads on people when they start specifying their attacks.
RangerCado: poking around nicely, (PPE)haven't seen around lately to respond to new info. Just answering questions as well. I dunno.

How about a dangerous question to everybody: If you were scum, who would you nightkill?
The reasoning behind this is this: the favored targets can give reads and stuff, we get d2 accusation material, and the mafia will likely get nothing from people's responses. 

MOWE: sorry to bug you, but the title of the thread still has replacement needed on it, and I think I filled the last slot. Cheers!

Thank you everyone for your explanations.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day One
Post by: RangerCado on May 29, 2014, 09:56:23 am

LARD: The obvious targets are the ICs, but at this point right now? tn5421 or borno if either survived. This would likely cause exactly what the scum team want, confusion and mistrust among the town into Second guessing eachother. This also leaves people trying to discover a new person to read, or may cause others to jump to false conclusions. Just what scum want. The risk in this situation for the scum if they do that is that they get rid of a target they could attempt to start a bandwagon on, but I think the benefit for scum would be higher than the risk.

And its only fair you answer the question yourself.

Also, I did throw in a couple questions there, but I need Tiruin's finished reads list and TDS's reads explanation for more digging of current information.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day One
Post by: Silthuri on May 29, 2014, 10:58:10 am

Quote from: LARD on May 29, 2014, 09:47:43 am

MOWE: sorry to bug you, but the title of the thread still has replacement needed on it, and I think I filled the last slot. Cheers!

I did change it not long after you replaced in. When you begin a post by quoting another, your post has that same title. That's why your post has the old title.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day One
Post by: LARD on May 29, 2014, 05:52:25 pm

Right, of course the IC's, but in a beginner game if there is a jailkeeper, I would want him to know who to protect.
I would kill Jack

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day One
Post by: borno on May 29, 2014, 08:04:25 pm

RangerCado:

Quote from: RangerCado on May 29, 2014, 09:30:29 am

Quote from: borno on May 26, 2014, 04:47:03 pm

-snip-

Borno: I still don't see how thats buddying. I felt no attempt at trying to win my favor with that. Therefore, I didn't call him out on it which means its not really buddying.

Yes, as clarified earlier, I misused the term 'buddying'.

Quote from: RangerCado on May 29, 2014, 09:30:29 am

Quote from: borno on May 27, 2014, 04:42:20 pm

Well, I guess if they flip scum then the person they were... whatever the term ising will be cast under suspicion. But right now, it's not really affecting my read of him. I'm just noting it in case tn5421 ever dies and flips scum.

borno: This, the bolded especially, makes me suspicious. You've been pushing for a lynch against tn5421 for most of the day, but this makes me believe that you don't think that others will either A: See his scumminess, of B: You don't fully think he's scummy. Thoughts?

Well, according to the votecount, no, no-one else sees his scuminess. I put that in there because many people believe that he is just a 'misguided townie' or whatever, and certainly not scum.
LARD:

Quote from: LARD on May 29, 2014, 09:47:43 am

Quote from: Jack A T on May 28, 2014, 09:14:15 pm

-snip-
*What are your reads on players other than me, tn5421, and borno?
*You stated around the start of your post that you suspect tn5421 the most due to his breakdown under fire.  However, later in your post, you write this as part of your attack on borno (formatting added by me):

Quote from: LARD on May 28, 2014, 07:20:31 pm

This is also a bad thing. He [tn5421] has already proved that he will likely do nothing unless we attempt to win the game and drag him along with us. Your vote has more useful places than on him. I agree that he is probably mafia, but I he is typical of depressed new player under fire as exemplified in Kingmaker IV.

The underlined sentence is written with the assumption that he is town, and you downplay the issue of tn5421's breakdown under fire, saying his play is "typical of depressed new player under fire."  You also push for borno to not vote tn5421, based on that, while mildly saying you think tn is scum.

My point was that I like to have unbalancing forces in the game, such as an edgy player like tn5421.  I didn't vote him even though I think he's scum because of this and that he seems like he could learn a lot from surviving.  People don't learn if you kill them straight away.  That being said, I had forgotten that borno is quite a new player (right?) and so it was rather unkind of me to vote like that. That being said, he is quite eloquent and is playing well, so I consider him a more valid target.

Actually I played mafia on these forums two years ago, but then I mysteriously disappeared. So technically I wouldn't consider myself a 'new' player, but I'm still coming to terms with some things I've forgotten.

Quote from: LARD on May 29, 2014, 09:47:43 am

The third point was just me asking borno to reconsider the usefulness of his vote.  He is attacking the easy target and tunneled on him until it became clear that others disapproved of it.

No, I attacked him until he kept on refusing to defend himself, and then stopped but didn't remove my vote to try and pressure him into action. I don't believe I was tunneling; there was just not much I considered immediately scummy.

Quote from: LARD on May 29, 2014, 09:47:43 am

How about a dangerous question to everybody: If you were scum, who would you nightkill?
The reasoning behind this is this: the favored targets can give reads and stuff, we get d2 accusation material, and the mafia will likely get nothing from people's responses. 

If I was scum I would also kill Jack A T. This is because he is giving lots of helpful advice and being a strong player, and an IC. I would likely not choose Tiruin as she has been less active and therefore helpful.

Quote from: LARD on May 29, 2014, 09:47:43 am

Now to Borno
1. You are correct, it isn't an OMGUS, my apologies. That was just a bit of pressure from me about you being overly defensive.
2. I still disagree that the most useful place for your vote is on tn5421. (tn5421  if you are reading this, prove me wrong, please.)
3. tn5421 is just being a bit overdefensive, and I don't think that it's a scumtell.  We find the scumtells later by how people respond to him.

Again, I don't think I'm being overly defensive. See my previous post. Why do you think that me defending myself normally is suddenly being overly defensive?
You still disagree? But the only people you seem to think are scummy are tn5421 and myself, right? And so since I'm not going to vote for myself, I'll keep my vote on tn5421 until he gives me a good enough reason to take it off. And why do you ask tn5421 to prove you wrong? Wouldn't it be in his best interests to prove you right?
Wait wait wait what? You're voting me because I'm being 'overly defensive' and voting tn5421 for several reasons, one of which is him being overly defensive... Yet you say that for him being 'a bit overdefensive' isn't a scumtell? Why is it a scumtell for me then? This sounds like some serious chainsaw defending. Please, LARD, explain why over defensiveness is a scumtell for tn5421 but not for me. Explain how you 'know' that he's just a confused townie, despite saying he's pretty scummy. Explain why you keep defending him even when he refuses to defend himself.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day One
Post by: Jack A T on May 29, 2014, 08:52:51 pm

Well.  Tiruin's in the middle of posting her reads, Deathsword doesn't have stated reads yet (or much at all, really), and TheDarkStar still needs to post the reasons he said he'll post.  And the day ends in less than 24 hours.  Yay.

---

LARD: In response to your question, a scumkill would be something both team members would help decide on.  I would likely push for killing Tiruin (stopping a skilled player from significantly influencing the town) or tn5421 (getting TheDarkStar away from me).  Of course, now that I've written this, a theoretical scum me might push for anyone but those two (the iocane-tainted wine being likely in front of me).

Quote from: LARD on May 28, 2014, 07:20:31 pm

I did a quick read through and I think that tn5421 is still the most likely scum because of the way he freaked out so much when a bit of pressure was put on him.

Quote from: LARD on May 29, 2014, 09:47:43 am

The borno and tn situation could mean one of a few things,
1. tn is scum and just getting used to it. If that is the case, then the breakdown under pressure makes sense.
2. borno is scum and targeting the easy player. Personally I find this more likely just due to the fact that the play-style of tn is more typical of a depressed new player (see KM IV) than of a scum, but it is so hard to tell.
3. neither of them are scum. Just borno targeting a suspicious person and things happening the way they should. I don't think this is likely, but it sure is more likely than point 4.

So, just to be clear, you think tn5421 is the most likely player to be scum.  However, you think that it is more likely that tn5421 is town and borno is scum.  Yet borno is your second scumpick, and is less likely to be scum than tn5421, who is less likely to be scum than borno.

...What exactly are your scumpicks?  Is there a reason you seem to be having trouble keeping your thoughts straight?

---

Borno: So, one of your recent posts (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=138613.msg5321450#msg5321450) got me to look back at your activity so far, and I'm noticing an interesting pattern of actions.

See, back when public opinion was turning strongly towards lynching tn5421, you explicitly thought he was scum (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=138613.msg5302834#msg5302834).  Since public opinion shifted against a tn5421 lynch, you've eased off from saying you think he's scum and have stuck to saying that he does things that make him look scummy.

But that would mean little on its own.  People have different writing styles, and non-committal writing sometimes pops up.  A case couldn't reasonably be made on that alone.

Quote from: borno on May 29, 2014, 03:13:45 am

tn5421 not defending himself. It confuses me beyond no end; he is being lazy (scumtell) evasive (scumtell) and uncooperative (scumtell), for what reason? To one-up me or something? I don't understand, and he's holding the whole game up because of it.

Thing is, we're reaching the end of the day, and you're posting stuff like this.  You're doing the "and that's a scumtell!" thing newbies often do to convince people of their arguments against their lynch targets, and you're doing it even more gratuitously than it is usually done.  You're trying to get attention on tn5421 by pointing out scummy actions.  Yet...

Quote from: borno on May 29, 2014, 03:13:45 am

I'm putting my vote on him to try and get him to do something, but all he is posting is sentence long half baked posts. And not even often, either.
[...]
How's that a bad thing? And it's a pressure vote; it is in the most useful place it can be. Unless if you have someone in mind who I should be voting? If he gets lynched for stubbornly refusing to defend himself, so be it.

... you refuse to commit, and distance yourself from the idea that you want tn dead.  Your vote is now a pressure vote, to get tn to act.  Oh, you'd be fine, absolutely fine, with tn5421 being lynched for the inaction and actions you point out, but you're clearly not trying to lynch him or anything.  You're just pressuring him.

You want people voting tn5421.  You want them off you and on tn5421, but you don't want to be seen as the one leading the lynch of tn5421.  The initial push, not led by you, would have been great for you, but now you are nearly alone against tn.  You want him dead, but you don't want to lead the lynch.

So.  I have a few questions for you, borno: Is tn5421 scum?  If so, why avoid actively pushing for his lynch?  Why focus on a "pressure vote" near the end of the day?

PPE:

Quote from: borno on May 29, 2014, 08:04:25 pm

Well, according to the votecount, no, no-one else sees his scuminess. I put that in there because many people believe that he is just a 'misguided townie' or whatever, and certainly not scum.
[...]
No, I attacked him until he kept on refusing to defend himself, and then stopped but didn't remove my vote to try and pressure him into action.

Oh, hey, an announcement that people are missing how scummy tn5421 is, with an implication that if they noticed, they'd be voting for him.  Of course, it's soon followed by a reiteration of your position that your goal for your vote is to pressure tn5421 into acting.

---

MyOwnWorstEnemy: Warn Kansa.  He has not posted for over 70 hours.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day One
Post by: Silthuri on May 29, 2014, 09:31:04 pm

Votecount:

• LARD:
• borno: tn5421, RangerCado, LARD, Jack A T (4)
• TheDarkStar:
• Deathsword:
• tn5421: borno (1)
• RangerCado:
• Kansa:
• Jack A T:
• Tiruin:

Not voting: Tiruin, Kansa, Deathsword, TheDarkStar

Day ends tomorrow at 7 pm EST (about 21 hours from now)
There are no more extends available for today!

Kansa has been prodded/warned.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day One
Post by: borno on May 29, 2014, 10:00:31 pm

Jack A T:

Quote from: Jack A T on May 29, 2014, 08:52:51 pm

Borno: So, one of your recent posts (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=138613.msg5321450#msg5321450) got me to look back at your activity so far, and I'm noticing an interesting pattern of actions.

See, back when public opinion was turning strongly towards lynching tn5421, you explicitly thought he was scum (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=138613.msg5302834#msg5302834).  Since public opinion shifted against a tn5421 lynch, you've eased off from saying you think he's scum and have stuck to saying that he does things that make him look scummy.

Firstly, two other people isn't 'public opinion' to me. Secondly, isn't doing scummy stuff and being scum one and the same? I admit that I have laid off attacking him as hard as usual for two reasons: He refuses to defend himself, and the revelation of the possibility that he isn't scum, but confused town. Until he posts more I have no way of telling which one he is, so at times I may be wishy-washy.

Quote from: Jack A T on May 29, 2014, 08:52:51 pm

Quote from: borno on May 29, 2014, 03:13:45 am

tn5421 not defending himself. It confuses me beyond no end; he is being lazy (scumtell) evasive (scumtell) and uncooperative (scumtell), for what reason? To one-up me or something? I don't understand, and he's holding the whole game up because of it.

Thing is, we're reaching the end of the day, and you're posting stuff like this.  You're doing the "and that's a scumtell!" thing newbies often do to convince people of their arguments against their lynch targets, and you're doing it even more gratuitously than it is usually done.  You're trying to get attention on tn5421 by pointing out scummy actions.  Yet...

Quote from: borno on May 29, 2014, 03:13:45 am

I'm putting my vote on him to try and get him to do something, but all he is posting is sentence long half baked posts. And not even often, either.
[...]
How's that a bad thing? And it's a pressure vote; it is in the most useful place it can be. Unless if you have someone in mind who I should be voting? If he gets lynched for stubbornly refusing to defend himself, so be it.

... you refuse to commit, and distance yourself from the idea that you want tn dead.  Your vote is now a pressure vote, to get tn to act.  Oh, you'd be fine, absolutely fine, with tn5421 being lynched for the inaction and actions you point out, but you're clearly not trying to lynch him or anything.  You're just pressuring him.

You want people voting tn5421.  You want them off you and on tn5421, but you don't want to be seen as the one leading the lynch of tn5421.  The initial push, not led by you, would have been great for you, but now you are nearly alone against tn.  You want him dead, but you don't want to lead the lynch.

So.  I have a few questions for you, borno: Is tn5421 scum?  If so, why avoid actively pushing for his lynch?  Why focus on a "pressure vote" near the end of the day?

If you want me to be honest, I had no idea that it's the end of the day today. It's a public holiday over here, so my silly brain assumed that it was Saturday, and the lynch next week.  ::) Sorry. If I had known, I would have taken a much more aggressive stance against tn5421 for not defending himself for the whole day. I think that tn5421 is, indeed scum, I want to lynch him and I'm fine with being seen as the lynch leader. For your other questions, please see before.

Quote from: Jack A T on May 29, 2014, 08:52:51 pm

PPE:

Quote from: borno on May 29, 2014, 08:04:25 pm

Well, according to the votecount, no, no-one else sees his scuminess. I put that in there because many people believe that he is just a 'misguided townie' or whatever, and certainly not scum.
[...]
No, I attacked him until he kept on refusing to defend himself, and then stopped but didn't remove my vote to try and pressure him into action.

Oh, hey, an announcement that people are missing how scummy tn5421 is, with an implication that if they noticed, they'd be voting for him.  Of course, it's soon followed by a reiteration of your position that your goal for your vote is to pressure tn5421 into acting.

Again, no idea that it was the end of the day today. I apologise. I know that pressure votes have no place at the end of the day, and so I'm switching it into a dead-serious vote.

---

Here's my case in full against tn5421:

Spoiler: borno's case against tn5421 (click to show/hide)

Quote from: tn5421 on May 21, 2014, 01:08:56 pm

@Jack A T: I would be highly suspicious of reply #80 if you weren't an IC.  Being super bold just makes you the primary target for a nightkill.

Firstly, he states that Jack A T is suspicious for giving IC advice. Not a case on its own, but gives early insight into tn5421's aggressive, trouble-brewing nature.

Quote from: tn5421 on May 21, 2014, 05:18:38 pm

@borno, #98: No.  No.  We are NOT in lylo.  There are 2 scum / 7 town as per the setup.  I do not like this post at all.

Vote: borno

But please tell us how we are in LYLO on day one.

Then he attacks me for asking a hypothetical question. This is where I start to think that he is scum, as he once again all he is doing is trying to stir up trouble with a nonsensical question.

Quote from: tn5421 on May 21, 2014, 07:22:07 pm

You go right ahead and lynch me day one, it doesn't make a bit of difference to me.

Then, when Jack A T votes him for his behaviour, he suddenly just gives up and refuses to make any sort of defence.

Quote from: tn5421 on May 22, 2014, 03:30:12 pm

@All: You bitch about me playing cautiously, then immediately jump on my wagon when I start to make aggressive posts.
Fuck.  You.

@Kansa: He was attempting to panic the townsfolk, which is an action that primarily advances the scum wincon.  I don't see the need to defend myself at this point in the game, as the people that are voting me are doing so for mainly nonsensical reasons.  Except for RangerCado, I think.

The reality is that if you're stupid enough to lynch me, you deserve to lose my support anyway.

That is a perfectly acceptable situation for me anyway, because it means I can avoid a wall-war with people that are just going to throw the game anyway.

He then gets really mad at the three people voting him, and again refuses to defend himself-except with a single hypocritical statement and insults to the people attacking him.

Also, apparently being on the verge of being lynched is 'the perfectly acceptable' for him.

Quote from: tn5421 on May 22, 2014, 07:03:05 pm

Quote from: borno on May 21, 2014, 04:37:43 pm

tn5421:

Quote from: tn5421 on May 20, 2014, 08:07:35 pm

@borno: Wow, no questions to me.  The insult cuts deep.

Sorry, friend.
It is lylo, and the votes are tied. One player is slightly scummy and lurks and the other is more scummy but is active. Who do you choose to lynch?

Please tell me ALL ABOUT how its a question.  I will redirect you to the seafront property in Kansas.

We both know I'm conftown, since your role pm told you who your scumbuddy was, I don't understand why you think you can keep this pretence of legitimacy up.

Nice twisting my words, by the way.  I firmly stated my desire to not play with idiots, because it's not fun in the slightest.

As to why I don't need to defend myself; all you're going to do is twist anything I could possibly say until its barely recognizable anymore, so why should I feed the troll?

Again, more insults and a baseless accusation that I'm scum. And apparently my hypothetical question wasn't a question but instead a statement. Huh. Also, more refusing to defend himself.

You'll see more of this later.

Quote from: tn5421 on May 22, 2014, 07:12:09 pm

Quote

It is lylo, and the votes are tied.

is not a question.  He keeps trying to frame it as a question because he knows I caught him out on a lie and is trying to cover it up by attacking me.  Granted, I made it easier by deciding to play a bit different than I normally do.  He also never connected the statements in any meaningful way.

Quote

One player is slightly scummy and lurks and the other is more scummy but is active. Who do you choose to lynch?

Should have been this:

Quote

One player is slightly scummy and lurks and the other is more scummy but is active.  You are in LYLO.  Who do you choose to lynch?

Here he helpfully outlines his case against me: A badly worded(?) statement. And that's it, apparently.

Quote from: tn5421 on May 22, 2014, 07:16:18 pm

@Fniff: That's alright, Mafia isn't for everyone.  I got off on a bad foot because I was already mad as a hare about mafiascum having server problems (they've been down for 2-3 days now) and borno walks in with his half-assed logic thinking he can lead town into mislynches.

Here he 'explains' his aggressiveness-mafiascum's server issues. More insulting of the person attacking him than actually trying to defend himself.

Quote from: tn5421 on May 22, 2014, 08:06:16 pm

Read this like you would a play, the name is the person talking, because I'm not doing 5+ quote tags.

Jack A T: Where's the scumminess in giving mass advice to be bold and take action to hunt scum?

tn5421: Because I'm the one that takes this advice, and I'm always mislynched early in the game for it.

Jack A T: (Are you speaking from personal experience here?)

tn5421: Yes.

Jack A T: Was this what you thought about the lines I asked about when you voted Tiruin?  If not, what did you think?

tn5421: IMO, being busy IRL is an acceptable excuse to not have time to post, but not an acceptable excuse to dodge questions.  I still want the question answered by Tiruin when she is done with IRL stuff.

...
Jack A T: ...so?  Where's the scumminess?  Why would scum be more likely than town to say incorrect things about LYLO day 1 in a BM?

tn5421: He wants to find out how town will play if the game goes to LYLO, so he can adopt his playstyle with leisure in a (more) successful effort to seem town.  In essence, letting people answer this will enable him to blend in more, which isn't something town should want.

Jack A T: Don't say things like this.  It doesn't help you win, whether you're town or scum.  In fact, it tends to make you look worse.

A better defense strategy is to respond to the attacks against you while actively scumhunting.

tn5421: I don't see why I should care, he's hell bent on scumpainting me and its not like anything I say will be believed until I flip town anyway.

Once again refuses to defend himself, and claims that nothing he says will be believed until he dies.

Quote from: tn5421 on May 22, 2014, 08:25:22 pm

It's not like scum!borno is even innovating at all, this is a play I've seen dozens of times.

It's not like he's even innovating at all, this is a post from him I've seen dozens of times: Nothing but insulting and baseless accusations.

Quote from: tn5421 on May 23, 2014, 04:52:18 pm

Jack A T: *Attempts to be aggressive tended to get you killed.

tn5421: On day one, at that.

Jack A T: *When seeing advice to be aggressive/bold in Bay 12 (a place that does like aggression and boldness), you were suspicious due to prior mafia... trauma, I guess works as a word here.  This suspicion is crap.

tn5421: No, the format is crap and you ask for people to misunderstand you.

Jack A T: *After enough pressure, you decided to try aggression.

tn5421: Because I'll be lynched if I don't.  Incidentially, I'll be lynched if I do, as well.  Catch 22 much?

Jack A T: *... by creating a terrible case.

tn5421: Nobody seems to want to post so what evidence am I supposed to use, exactly?

Jack A T: *You're also angry, due in part to MafiaScum having server issues.

tn5421: Yeah, I queued for a couple of small, fun games (5p vengeful and stuff like that) just to kick back and have a bit of fun, and the server goes down.

Jack A T: *You're even angrier, due to perceiving the backlash against your case as the anti-aggression murderiness you remember from early games.

tn5421: See Catch 22.

Jack A T: *Running on anger, you've started repeatedly firing everything you have at your feet.

tn5421: If everyone is going to suspect me no matter what I do then why even play in the first place, because it is certainly not fun for me in the slightest right now.

@borno: Why should I waste 15 or more minutes of my life reading your scumpainting post?

Quote

I prefer to give the setting before the situation

Then maybe you should make it obvious that you're doing so.

Says that he refuses to read my post. That explains a lot, including why he got negative attention in the first case: The refusal to read posts properly. He also does his usual act of portraying himself as a poor, alone townie who has everything they say turned against him.

Quote from: tn5421 on May 23, 2014, 09:03:36 pm

There is no need for me to do so; you have already decided that I'm guilty, and no defense would stop you from seeing me lynched anyway.

Apparently tn5421 can dictate what I think, and so refuses to defend more because I have already decided that he's guilty. What he fails to realise is that, by now, this is the major reason why I'm voting him in the first place.

Quote from: tn5421 on May 24, 2014, 05:33:14 pm

@RangerCado: The defender is always wrong, and the attacker is always right in the eyes of public opinion.

He makes another nonsensical excuse for not defending himself.

Quote from: tn5421 on May 24, 2014, 08:10:03 pm

@Kansa: But you'll notice I'm on everyones 'suspicious' list.

@RangerCado: Except I didn't have problems playing as scum.

@Everyone: If I were scum, why would I draw your attention and paint a target on myself?

More pathetic excuses. He claims that scumtells are all intentional and asks why he would drop one on purpose.

Quote from: tn5421 on May 27, 2014, 06:08:17 pm

Because I don't really care about this game's outcome, borno.

He doesn't post anything meaningful for a while, but then this. He's going to throw the game because he doesn't really care about its outcome in any case. Honestly, if he is town then this is the worst town play I've seen.

---

And then he makes one or two more posts and doesn't reply again.

He has been lurky, aggressive and trouble-stirring for the whole game. He refuses to defend himself, and when he does they are short, meaningless defences. He plays the 'confused townie' card well, and has apparently managed to convince everyone of his alleged innocence. He is throwing the game for himself and his team, and then sits back and relaxes as the person attacking himself gets voted. He is insulting and aggressive to anyone who remotely suspects him, and as the tiniest bit of pressure is put onto him he lashes out. And calls the person attacking him scum. Therefore, I say that he is scum and deserves to hang.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day One
Post by: LARD on May 29, 2014, 11:53:19 pm

Nah Jack, my thoughts are straight and here they are in simplified.
Borno seems to me like a fairly experienced player playing scum.
tn5421 seems to me like a rather twitchy player, possibly indicating scum, but more likely indicating unfamiliarity with this forum's playstyle. In any case, he will be useful to stir things up and get reactions, just like I was in my first game.
Sorry, no time to respond further.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day One
Post by: borno on May 30, 2014, 12:26:09 am

LARD:

Quote from: LARD on May 29, 2014, 11:53:19 pm

Borno seems to me like a fairly experienced player playing scum.

Wrong on both, sorry. Also, please could you respond to my response sometime today? That would be helpful.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day One
Post by: tn5421 on May 30, 2014, 01:04:02 am

Post 218 makes for interesting reading.

I can't believe borno actually went and made a case.
These are all quotes from borno's case, but I'm too lazy to link every single one of them.

Reply # 220, http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=138613.msg5323991#msg5323991

Quote

Firstly, he states that Jack A T is suspicious for giving IC advice. Not a case on its own, but gives early insight into tn5421's aggressive, trouble-brewing nature.

Aggression isn't alignment indicative.  His advice was essentially "Walk off the cliff; you don't fall down".

Quote

Then he attacks me for asking a hypothetical question. This is where I start to think that he is scum, as he once again all he is doing is trying to stir up trouble with a nonsensical question.

What did you want me to do, lurk the whole game?

Quote

Then, when Jack A T votes him for his behaviour, he suddenly just gives up and refuses to make any sort of defence.

I don't see how this is relevant.

Quote

He then gets really mad at the three people voting him, and again refuses to defend himself-except with a single hypocritical statement and insults to the people attacking him.

Also, apparently being on the verge of being lynched is 'the perfectly acceptable' for him.

I love how you distort what I said here.  YOUR hypocrisy and that of every other person I've played with is fucking sickening.  You advocate 'playing aggressively' and then jump on someone that actually takes your advice.

Quote

Again, more insults and a baseless accusation that I'm scum. And apparently my hypothetical question wasn't a question but instead a statement. Huh. Also, more refusing to defend himself.

Lying is a universal scumtell, and you've lied more than once over the past game-day.

Quote

Once again refuses to defend himself, and claims that nothing he says will be believed until he dies.

Of course it won't, because you'll keep scumpainting me until I flip town.
You've tunneled me so hard that everyone has noticed it by now.

Quote

It's not like he's even innovating at all, this is a post from him I've seen dozens of times: Nothing but insulting and baseless accusations.

That requires effort that I wasn't willing to make.  Besides, your case by this point is extremely circumstantial at best.

Quote

Says that he refuses to read my post. That explains a lot, including why he got negative attention in the first case: The refusal to read posts properly. He also does his usual act of portraying himself as a poor, alone townie who has everything they say turned against him.

Because that's exactly what you're doing, trying to turn almost literally every word I have typed in this game against me.

Quote

Apparently tn5421 can dictate what I think, and so refuses to defend more because I have already decided that he's guilty. What he fails to realise is that, by now, this is the major reason why I'm voting him in the first place.

No, you aren't voting me because the rest of the players caught on to your attempted train and told you to fuck off.

Quote

More pathetic excuses. He claims that scumtells are all intentional and asks why he would drop one on purpose.

Where did I say my 'scumtells' were intentional, liar?

Quote

He doesn't post anything meaningful for a while, but then this. He's going to throw the game because he doesn't really care about its outcome in any case. Honestly, if he is town then this is the worst town play I've seen.

Stop appealing to emotion.  It's making you look like a loser.  I don't even understand how this qualifies as a case, since you don't have enough evidence to convince water that it is wet.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day One
Post by: Tiruin on May 30, 2014, 03:11:59 am

PFP

Y'know when bad net happens, argh is me all around.
But then modification to my last post == I really don't see Tn as scum given his mannerisms of late.
Post will be coming uppish soonish hopefully.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day One
Post by: Kansa on May 30, 2014, 05:04:47 am

Sorry for not posting in the last couple of days, I'm sad to see people leaving

To Tiriun: Most confusing thing would probably be finding the right questions to ask people to ascertain their scumminess.

To borno: Why did you claim it was a pressure vote to get tn5421 to defend when you do believe he was actually scum?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day One
Post by: borno on May 30, 2014, 06:06:34 am

tn5421:
Hey, tn5421 finally got up and did something for once! Horray for him!

Quote from: tn5421 on May 30, 2014, 01:04:02 am

Quote

Firstly, he states that Jack A T is suspicious for giving IC advice. Not a case on its own, but gives early insight into tn5421's aggressive, trouble-brewing nature.

Aggression isn't alignment indicative.  His advice was essentially "Walk off the cliff; you don't fall down".

Actually, it is. There's nothing wrong with pursuing someone aggressively, but when you fire at anyone and everyone for anything and everything, usually you're scum.

Quote from: tn5421 on May 30, 2014, 01:04:02 am

Quote

Then he attacks me for asking a hypothetical question. This is where I start to think that he is scum, as he once again all he is doing is trying to stir up trouble with a nonsensical question.

What did you want me to do, lurk the whole game?

No. But you did that anyway, what with your refusal to respond to me. Also, how is the solution to not making baseless attacks on everyone lurking? Enlighten me, please.

Quote from: tn5421 on May 30, 2014, 01:04:02 am

Quote

Then, when Jack A T votes him for his behaviour, he suddenly just gives up and refuses to make any sort of defence.

I don't see how this is relevant.

It's pretty relevant. Not only is refusing to defend yourself annoying to your attackers, it's also incredibly scummy.

Quote from: tn5421 on May 30, 2014, 01:04:02 am

Quote

He then gets really mad at the three people voting him, and again refuses to defend himself-except with a single hypocritical statement and insults to the people attacking him.

Also, apparently being on the verge of being lynched is 'the perfectly acceptable' for him.

I love how you distort what I said here.  YOUR hypocrisy and that of every other person I've played with is fucking sickening.  You advocate 'playing aggressively' and then jump on someone that actually takes your advice.

Aggressively, not overly-aggressively. And how am I distorting your words? What I've written all came out of your mouth.

Quote from: tn5421 on May 30, 2014, 01:04:02 am

Quote

Again, more insults and a baseless accusation that I'm scum. And apparently my hypothetical question wasn't a question but instead a statement. Huh. Also, more refusing to defend himself.

Lying is a universal scumtell, and you've lied more than once over the past game-day.

Please tell me where exactly I have lied today, because I can't remember lying myself.

Quote from: tn5421 on May 30, 2014, 01:04:02 am

Quote

Once again refuses to defend himself, and claims that nothing he says will be believed until he dies.

Of course it won't, because you'll keep scumpainting me until I flip town.
You've tunneled me so hard that everyone has noticed it by now.

No, I'll keep on attacking you until you prove that you're town. Also, I don't know where all of these tunneling claims came from. There has just been little activity, and subsequently nothing I've found scummy.

Quote from: tn5421 on May 30, 2014, 01:04:02 am

Quote

It's not like he's even innovating at all, this is a post from him I've seen dozens of times: Nothing but insulting and baseless accusations.

That requires effort that I wasn't willing to make.  Besides, your case by this point is extremely circumstantial at best.

You know that laziness is a scumtell, right? Why exactly weren't you willing to make the effort? And how is my case circumstantial?

Quote from: tn5421 on May 30, 2014, 01:04:02 am

Quote

Says that he refuses to read my post. That explains a lot, including why he got negative attention in the first case: The refusal to read posts properly. He also does his usual act of portraying himself as a poor, alone townie who has everything they say turned against him.

Because that's exactly what you're doing, trying to turn almost literally every word I have typed in this game against me.

If you did nothing scummy, then nothing would be turned against you. And don't be ridiculous. If everything you said had been turned against you, then you would have been lynched by now.

Quote from: tn5421 on May 30, 2014, 01:04:02 am

Quote

Apparently tn5421 can dictate what I think, and so refuses to defend more because I have already decided that he's guilty. What he fails to realise is that, by now, this is the major reason why I'm voting him in the first place.

No, you aren't voting me because the rest of the players caught on to your attempted train and told you to fuck off.

What? I am voting you. What are you talking about?

Quote from: tn5421 on May 30, 2014, 01:04:02 am

Quote

More pathetic excuses. He claims that scumtells are all intentional and asks why he would drop one on purpose.

Where did I say my 'scumtells' were intentional, liar?

Quote from: tn5421 on May 24, 2014, 08:10:03 pm

@Everyone: If I were scum, why would I draw your attention and paint a target on myself?

The quoted bit. You ask why you would draw attention and paint a target on yourself, as if you drew the attention on purpose and not by dropping scumtells.

Quote from: tn5421 on May 30, 2014, 01:04:02 am

Quote

He doesn't post anything meaningful for a while, but then this. He's going to throw the game because he doesn't really care about its outcome in any case. Honestly, if he is town then this is the worst town play I've seen.

Stop appealing to emotion.  It's making you look like a loser.  I don't even understand how this qualifies as a case, since you don't have enough evidence to convince water that it is wet.

I'm sorry, but I'm appealing to emotion? The one reason that people keep stating as why they aren't voting you is because apparently you seem to be a 'confused, lost townie'. I'm not the one appealing to emotion; It's you.
Kansa:

Quote from: Kansa on May 30, 2014, 05:04:47 am

To borno: Why did you claim it was a pressure vote to get tn5421 to defend when you do believe he was actually scum?

Because he was refusing to defend himself, and so I left my vote on him as a pressure vote. Since almost a whole day had passed and he still was refusing to defend himself, it transformed back into a lynch vote.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day One
Post by: LARD on May 30, 2014, 09:18:05 am

For one thing borno, when I say I you seem to me to be a quite experienced scum player, I can hardly be wrong, can I? But semantics aside, can I ask you a question pertaining to your tirade against tn5421? You say you are quite confident that he is scum. Judging on people's behavior towards him, who do you think is the scum buddy? 
      It seems to me that the whole of the recent game has been you two fighting, and making it easier for the buddy to hide.

As for your case against him, I don't think very many of the points are valid, as I have said.  He is playing like a jumpy new player who gets depressed when the tide turns against him. He could be scum, but I don't think any of his behaviors are specific scum tells in a new player.


 Your most suspicious behavior to me has been to tunnel on one guy and ignore peoples points in his favor. The fact that the guy you are tunneling on seems to be a fairly easy target is also suspicious.  D1 is a good place to set up interactions between players so that later we can look back and prod people about them.  Your only interactions will have been with a dead guy if you succeed in getting him lynched.  This will give us no information about you for other days except to look at what you did to a lynched guy. 

The reason defensiveness is a tell for you and not tn5421 is because he is fairly new.  I don't gauge all people and their behaviors the same.  You seem to have played here before and therefore you will be held to the standards of normal scumtells. Read a bit of supercharazad in King maker IV and that should explain that if he could be town and spazzing like that, then tn5421, who is certainly not defensive in the same degree but is hauntingly familiar (I'm sorry) will have no problem excusing his behavior. I just think a scum player would do better than that because they can get private advice from scumbuddy and IC. 
By the way, that FOS you put on me is just not a convincing thing for a town to do. If I am suspicious, then tell me why. It can't be just that I made an incoherent accusation. (which I don't believe I did)

---

For other players
Tiruin: what is your opinion on this conflict and who could be a likely scumbuddy?
Jack A T: Why are you not going for tn5421?
Those not voting: Why not?

---

As for my take, the scumbuddy is probably hidden in those few we haven't heard from recently. This kind of bothers me. If a scumbuddy is under fire, I think a scum would probably be active in either bussing or trying to get buddy off the hook.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day One
Post by: Silthuri on May 30, 2014, 01:58:15 pm

Votecount:

• LARD:
• borno: tn5421, RangerCado, LARD, Jack A T (4)
• TheDarkStar:
• Deathsword:
• tn5421: borno (1)
• RangerCado:
• Kansa:
• Jack A T:
• Tiruin:

Not voting: Tiruin, Kansa, Deathsword, TheDarkStar

Day ends today at 7 pm EST (4 hours from now)
There are no more extends available for today.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day One
Post by: Tiruin on May 30, 2014, 02:27:04 pm

Quote from: MyOwnWorstEnemy on May 30, 2014, 01:58:15 pm

Day ends today at 7 pm EST (4 hours from now)
There are no more extends available for today.

...
><

I am not voting for anyone today--my reads on tn > borno, however on the point on borno, I say that I'm suitably biased against seeing him as scum in that manner [scummy, yeah, but there's something off about him being off, y'know?]
I may be judging due to prior experience with him or that, while I feel his motive or mode of attack may be erring on one side or another-moving too fast or too quick to judge, there is that something in how he makes his arguments that persuade me that he isn't scum--meaning the attitude of the person being scum; the attitude that I often see in scum players (quick to reason, quick to judge, compounding on error and riding on what makes one scummy//acting the aggressive interrogator) while similar to what I see in him, do not...match.

PFP Sorry for that :x Net still is slow and argh. One whole (half) other post lost.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day One
Post by: Tiruin on May 30, 2014, 02:39:13 pm

EBWOP: Said pinion was formed since my last post--honestly have not read proceeding posts from thereon out
I judged tn on the basis and method of how he argues--rather not on the emotional aspects attached to it, and so have I done the same on borno in that matter.

Disclaimer: Writing this at 3am and currently subsisting on a natural...'high' [heightened state of awareness] possibly due to being up at this time.

---

---

Quote from: LARD on May 30, 2014, 09:18:05 am

For other players
Tiruin: what is your opinion on this conflict and who could be a likely scumbuddy?

Opinion stated above, however in the likelihood that my intuition is wrong and one of them is scum, then I've to paint a possible other as a distancer given how both seem individualistic in their modes of acting and how they seem...like vigilantes(?), like...well, loners(?). In how they act.
Now to expressively answer that as a guess on the scumbuddy--I believe it is too early to forma  conclusion; I'd be basing my ideas on empirical data at the moment, and I do not believe that, in this context rather, the time would aid in showing who would be a special scumbuddy to me (I mean sure I'd be going after who I second most suspect is scum, but given how I see people...eeyeah the radar isn't working. Mostly all players are playing quite well in regard to trust/distrust/logical application, so I've to switch from conventional reasoning on my part to guess.)


Also Hi LARD long time no see :))

---

---

Quote from: Kansa on May 30, 2014, 05:04:47 am

Sorry for not posting in the last couple of days, I'm sad to see people leaving

To Tiriun: Most confusing thing would probably be finding the right questions to ask people to ascertain their scumminess.

To borno: Why did you claim it was a pressure vote to get tn5421 to defend when you do believe he was actually scum?

Hi too Kansa, nice to see you around! :)
...Mmm, most confusing is to make a check to ascertain mm?

What do you believe regarding the question system--how would you find scum using whatever tools you had on you? What method of communication would you employ?

---

---

Quote from: LARD's read on May 29, 2014, 09:47:43 am

Tiruin: No idea what to make of her, just massive piles of post to sift through.  My last game I tried to lead a lynch on her only to find she wasn't scum. Such is life.  I generally get reads on people when they start specifying their attacks.

Do note: My posts are limited to those giant piles of post and smaller posts containing questions :P

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day One
Post by: TheDarkStar on May 30, 2014, 03:06:41 pm

Well, it looks like I took too long to get around to looking at the four people I mentioned in detail. Because of the lack of time, I'll delay finishing looking at stuff until tonight, since I'll be able to see the lynch results. If I die tonight, though, take a look in detail at the three remaining people.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day One
Post by: Kansa on May 30, 2014, 03:09:38 pm

To LARD: Honestly because I'm not entirely sure who is and who isn't mafia at this point, I probably should have cast a vote earlier on to add pressure to somebody but as we are really close to the end now it wouldn't do anything.

To Tiruin: Nice to see you around too :)

I would probably wait for them to slip up and contradict something or do something that makes them seem suspicious, I'm not really sure what questions to ask to make them slip up though. As for the actual method of that I would probably as them a question to clarify the part that contradicted something else or made them suspicious in my eyes.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day One
Post by: Silthuri on May 30, 2014, 06:05:45 pm

The vampires closed in around borno.

"It's tn!" He shouted.

"Liar..." they hissed, fangs bared. No matter what he said, they would not believe him. He fought them until he had breathed his last breath.

When the rush of the vampires' rage faded, they searched his body for clues. They found nothing incriminating and knew they'd killed an innocent. Their hearts heavy with regret and sadness, the vampires retired to their cells for the day.

borno has been lynched! He was a vanilla townie!

Night one has begun and will end on Monday, June 2 at 7 pm EST or whenever I recieve all actions.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day Two
Post by: Silthuri on June 02, 2014, 09:09:54 pm

The vampires awakened the next night to find tn dead in his cell. Seeing another innocent killed enraged the vampires and the debate began once again.

tn was killed! He was a vanilla townie!

Votecount:

• LARD:
• TheDarkStar:
• Deathsword:
• RangerCado:
• Kansa:
• Jack A T:
• Tiruin:

Not voting: Everyone

Day two has begun and will end thursday  at 10 pm EST.

Votes to extend: [0/3]
Votes to shorten: [0/4]

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day Two
Post by: TheDarkStar on June 02, 2014, 10:22:14 pm

That was... unexpected. At this point, we need reads from everyone, along with reasons for why they think that.

My reads will be here tomorrow. My ideas about who the scum are are semi-irrelevant now in light of who has died, although Ranger and Jack are not off my suspicion list. Also, due to voting a guy who flipped townie, LARD is also on my suspicion list until I got through posts in detail. There's a very good chance that one of those three is scum; however, that doesn't exclude everyone else.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day Two
Post by: RangerCado on June 03, 2014, 12:12:21 am

Well... wow. Scum did exactly what I stated earlier, kill those we all suspect to cause confusion. Huh.

I'll get something more substantial tomorrow, its getting pretty late here.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day Two
Post by: Jack A T on June 03, 2014, 12:38:45 am

Alright.

We gained two major pieces of information since we last talked.  One is that borno was town.  The other is that tn5421 was town.  Anything either of them said can safely be believed to be their honest opinions.  This is a good time to look back and look at the pushes against the two dead townies.  Look at who was involved, and evaluate their reasons.

---

Quote from: LARD on May 30, 2014, 09:18:05 am

Jack A T: Why are you not going for tn5421?

LARD: Because his behaviour did not indicate scumhood.

Quote from: LARD on May 30, 2014, 09:18:05 am

As for my take, the scumbuddy is probably hidden in those few we haven't heard from recently. This kind of bothers me. If a scumbuddy is under fire, I think a scum would probably be active in either bussing or trying to get buddy off the hook.

Why did you think this?

---

Reads tomorrow.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day Two
Post by: Jack A T on June 03, 2014, 06:58:10 pm

Reads:
*Kansa: Nervous newbie, still trying to get used to the game.  Low activity seems to be due to inexperience, and nervousness caused by said inexperience.  Since my last read (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=138613.msg5304962#msg5304962), his activity dropped significantly. Very weak town lean.
*Deathsword: Only content post is on the 28th.  Seemed to be trying to gain information and sort things out, while having difficulty due to the poor activity.  Needs to post more.  Null read.
*Tiruin: Is locked in a desperate battle against bad internet.  When possible, she gave detailed partial thoughts, but it is difficult to read her when she can't get more than fragments of her thoughts posted.  Long, detailed fragments, but fragments nonetheless.  Null read.
*RangerCado: Part of both major lynch pushes in day 1.  After initially FoSing tn5421 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=138613.msg5299232#msg5299232) for vague reasons largely relating to tn's poor playstyle, what finally got RangerCado to vote for him was tn's breakdown (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=138613.msg5301739#msg5301739) and decision to let himself die.  Of all of tn's attackers, Cado had the least reason to attack.  However, RangerCado withdrew (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=138613.msg5307028#msg5307028) soon after I did, for much the same reason that I did.

RangerCado then started the main push against borno.  The focus was on borno's failure to do much beyond attacking tn5421.  Borno didn't do much to get rid of that.

Overall: slight scum lean, primarily gut-based.  I await that more substantial post he's promised.
*LARD: Nervous about my vote, but for understandable reasons when his inexperience and my position here is noted.  Tends towards long, detailed posts.  Shrugged off borno's claim of inexperience (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=138613.msg5325183#msg5325183).  LARD's vote (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=138613.msg5320410#msg5320410) was strange, with his top suspect (tn5421, who LARD believed was "probably mafia") not the target.  Declared he wanted tn5421 alive to shake things up in the same post that he stated that tn5421 would likely do nothing unless dragged along with the town and the same post that he stated that tn5421 was probably scum.  Largely ignored borno's questions (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=138613.msg5323612#msg5323612), aside from the one about inconsistent handling of overdefensiveness.

Behaviour with regard to tn5421 and borno was... strange.  Somewhat mild scum lean.
*TheDarkStar: TheDarkStar appears to be trying to give the impression of being here, but without actually saying anything of substance.  His first post (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=138613.msg5319717#msg5319717), as read lists go, is strange.  He declared that he suspected every single consistently active player in the game, each for vague reasons (except RangerCado, who didn't even get a reason), and he declared that at least one of the scum was probably among that half of the players.  No vote was made.  So, there we got TheDarkStar taking little in the way of a position.  He did, at least, say he would give more reasons later.

That never happened.  Two days later, about 3 hours before the end of the day and with numerous questions to answer, he posted (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=138613.msg5326034#msg5326034) that he'd taken too long to get detailed reasons together and that he decided to wait for the lynch results.  Still no solid position taken, and no questions answered.

Today, he again has promised thoughts later.  Let's hope he actually gives them this time.  He has also taken the convenient opportunity to declare his previous reads "semi-irrelevant," (that may just be poor wording, though) and has continued not answering questions about them.

---

LARD: Please answer those of borno's questions to you (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=138613.msg5323612#msg5323612) that you still can.
RangerCado: Yesterday, you were voting borno due to his failure to do much not related to tn5421.  How likely did you think it was that borno would be scum?
TheDarkStar: Do answer my questions (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=138613.msg5319823#msg5319823), borno's request for information (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=138613.msg5321450#msg5321450), and LARD's question to non-voters (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=138613.msg5325183#msg5325183).  Also, I initially missed the lack of reason for your RangerCado read, and would like an explanation for the lack of given reason there.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day Two
Post by: TheDarkStar on June 03, 2014, 08:01:23 pm

As I said, here are my reads:

LARD:
Slight scum lean, due to post 213 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=138613.msg5322042#msg5322042) where he decides that borno is scum rather than tn for unclear reasoning and post 203 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=138613.195) for voting borno despite saying that he things that tn is probably scum. However, in those same posts, he questions people and scumhunts to an extent. He also replaced in at the end of the day, so there's a reason for him having less. As for darkpaladin, there is barely anything to go off of (but his reads list will be useful later in this game).

LARD, why did you think borno was scum (or scummier) rather than tn? What are your reads?

Deathsword:
Null read due to almost no real posts excused due to RL and replacing another nearly non-active person. Also, to answer his question, I had two main ideas for scumteams because of the way that people seemed to be cooperating, but later things made this doubtful. However, I still see Jack A T as scummy.

What are your reads, in light of last night's events? Please be more active.

RangerCado:
Moderate scum lean. Post 158 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=138613.msg5310277#msg5310277): Seems to be interpreting what borno says differently, where he takes a random question as bad scumhunting and votes borno for this. Also, he is the only one who is really defending tn for a while, which could mean that he has insider knowledge. Also, post 156 (just use the previous link): He states that he is voting against the evidence that he sees. In (post 144 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=138613.msg5307028#msg5307028)), he shows all these reasons that tn is scummy and then unvotes him and focuses on someone else.

Why did you not vote for tn? Why did you interpret borno's post the way you did? What are your reads?

Kansa:
Null read due to near-inactivity.

Get in here and tell us your reads!

Tiruin:
Moderate town lean. In post 229/230 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=138613.msg5325943#msg5325943), she seems like town due to trying to figure things out and asking questions. However, I have trouble getting a good read for her in general.

What do you think of yesterday's events? What do you vote now? What are your reads?

Jack A T[/color]:
I thought this was going to be a strong scum lean, but then I read through your posts, so you're leaning town. In the post just above this one (238), he votes for me rather than RangerCado, who he gives a scum lean, or LARD, who he gives a minor scum lean. However, this could simply be there to pressure me into giving my reads. You voted for borno at the end of the day, possibly for credit in post 218 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=138613.msg5323786#msg5323786), and you use some reasoning that has mostly been used already. Because there is new reasoning there (and you have been doing some scumhunting throughout the game), though, I think that you found it on your own.

Thanks for the reads. What is your non-pressure vote? What do you think the scum killing tn implies?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day Two
Post by: TheDarkStar on June 03, 2014, 08:03:10 pm

Also, I just realized that I forgot to remove a [/color] from my post. Oops.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day Two
Post by: LARD on June 03, 2014, 09:25:23 pm

Hey guys, sorry I haven't been around. 

To TDS and Jack:  The main suspicion on me, that of voting borno and not tn is understandable, but I addressed it when I made the suspicious statements and votes.  I said that tn is behaving scummy, as in giving up, lashing out etc, but that could just be the signs of not understanding our game play. In addition to that, I agree with 4maskwolf's policy of not lynching new players (judging on their game play) on the first day.  I also thought that having a destabilizing force to the discussions, such as a hot-head or person with different play style would encourage discussion and would help us find scum. 

Anyway, if I was mafia, the only reason I can think of for me to distance myself from tn and not vote him would be if he was mafia.  He is was town, and so I think that point is kind of moot.

Jack A T As for borno's questions, here are the answers
Most of my questions on borno were just to put pressure on, and to tell the truth, I had just jumped in and replaced and I thought borno was the most likely candidate. He reminds me a lot of myself when scum, refusing to rise to bait and calmly refuting evidence, but restating himself and not hunting other people because he is too busy defending himself.
Most of his points on me were just him wondering about my views on him and tn. This is understandable, but I think I explained it here.

Quote from: LARD on May 29, 2014, 11:53:19 pm

Borno seems to me like a fairly experienced player playing scum.
tn5421 seems to me like a rather twitchy player, possibly indicating scum, but more likely indicating unfamiliarity with this forum's playstyle. In any case, he will be useful to stir things up and get reactions, just like I was in my first game.

and here

Quote from: LARD on May 28, 2014, 07:20:31 pm

I agree that he is probably mafia, but I he is typical of depressed new player under fire as exemplified in Kingmaker IV.

I said that borno's vote on tn was useless because tn just gave up. He wouldn't respond to the vote. So borno's vote would probably be more telling elsewhere.

---

Quote from: TheDarkStar on June 03, 2014, 08:01:23 pm

Jack A T
I thought this was going to be a strong scum lean, but then I read through your posts, so you're leaning town.

TDS This is confusing, you say you were incredibly suspicious of Jack, before you read his posts?  I dunno, this seems a bit suspect.  Could just be a slip of the tongue, is that right? Or is there more here?

Kansa

Quote from: Kansa on May 30, 2014, 03:09:38 pm

To LARD: Honestly because I'm not entirely sure who is and who isn't mafia at this point, I probably should have cast a vote earlier on to add pressure to somebody but as we are really close to the end now it wouldn't do anything.
I would probably wait for them to slip up and contradict something or do something that makes them seem suspicious, I'm not really sure what questions to ask to make them slip up though. As for the actual method of that I would probably as them a question to clarify the part that contradicted something else or made them suspicious in my eyes.

This doesn't sit right for me. You just seem to be acting confused and unsure of yourself. That in itself is not a bad thing, but you use it as an excuse for not hunting or voting.  Don't worry about that, you are far more suspicious when you sit on the fence than when you start hunting and savagely tearing people apart for their smallest verbal blunders.
Oh, and waiting for mafia to slip up and contradict themselves is something that will keep you waiting for a while.  When somebody does contradict themselves, it is more often than not just an honest townie mistake.

So Kansa, You are sitting on the fence, confused and unsure, while afraid to make a move against anybody for fear of looking suspicious.  You should probably have cast your vote, it would have taken the suspicion off your head.  But you didn't. And now bad things will happen.  :P

---

As for reads, I have no idea who would have killed tn5421. It doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me.
Jack: Probably would have killed Tiruin, the other IC, not tn5421.  But we did make a lot of comments how the doctor/jailkeeper should protect the IC's. Moderate town. I would like to see his opinions on Tiruin
Tiruin: Same as Jack but vice versa.  Also moderate town. But I can't read experienced players very well. I would like to see her opinions on Jack.
TDS Respond to my above question. Then we'll see.
RangerCado: Scum did exactly what you expected eh?  Seems like you know a lot about what the mafia are doing :P. Whatever, just post more, I need to form a better opinion of you.
Kansa: Has my vote. For above reasons.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day Two
Post by: RangerCado on June 03, 2014, 09:55:28 pm

First, lets get my reads out of the way.

---

    LARD: Slight town read so far. Haven't had enough time reading his posts or go more indepth into his posts for more than that, but from what I've seen so far he's leaning town.

    TheDarkStar: Evidence shows a good lean town, but something is giving me a bad feeling. I don't know what, and have to physical evidence reason why. Something is just... offsetting to me, as bad as that sounds.

    Deathsword: Null read still. Replaced an inactive player and didn't get too many posts from him, though gut feeling is giving me a slight town read from what i saw in a skim back, I don't have anything to really base it off.

    Kansa: Null read. Mostly still trying to learn the game, hasn't posted too much that gives any real information for me, and has posted so much less since before day end. Hoping he gets more active soon.

    Jack A T: Either good town, or really good scum. Jack is the kind of IC i'm always wary of as he puts his cases and posts into his tips and explanations. It makes it me nervous, and unsure of what I could be missing in the veil of explanations. I'll have to keep a good eye on his posts, and I encourage the rest of you as well. Was the final vote on borno, which always makes me suspicious.

    Tiruin: Good lean town for me despite RL getting in the way. Her posts are still informative, with little I could attempt to nit-pick to find scummy.

---

Jack: I was about 70% sure. He tunneled tn5421, then went called out on it, took minimal efforts to stop his tunneling, and was grasping at very minor evidence to try and rally everyone against him. My vote on tn5421 was mostly out of frustration and annoyance at seeing someone just give up for no good reason.

Being the final vote on borno before lynch puts you under a bit of suspicion in and of itself. What was your thought process behind that vote? Was it a bandwagon vote to avoid suspicion? How likely did you think he was scum?

TDS: I didn't vote for tn due to, after calming down and getting over my annoyance, seeing that all he was was a frustrated player who was getting punished for trying to learn a different style they didn't understand.

...And can you explain how you think I interpreted his post? I don't see what your pointing out. Whats your thoughts on the two voties getting killed off day and night 1?

LARD: If you'll look back, you'll notice I stated this exact situation in one of my posts. I'll go find it on request, but yes, it happened how I said and thought it might.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day Two
Post by: Silthuri on June 03, 2014, 10:20:23 pm

Votecount:

• LARD:
• TheDarkStar: Jack A T
• Deathsword:
• RangerCado: TheDarkStar
• Kansa: LARD
• Jack A T:
• Tiruin:

Not voting: Kansa, Deathsword, RangerCado, Tiruin

Day two will end thursday  at 10 pm EST.

Votes to extend: [0/3]
Votes to shorten: [0/4]

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day Two
Post by: Jack A T on June 04, 2014, 01:49:49 am

If you're going to try to interpret the NK, do take caution.  It is a road that can easily lead to much WIFOM.  Remember that there are two scum, and that they have a private advisor.  This is not an area from which strong evidence for or against a specific player is likely to come.

---

TheDarkStar:

Spoiler: TheDarkStar (click to show/hide)

Quote from: TheDarkStar on June 03, 2014, 08:01:23 pm

What do you think the scum killing tn implies?

It implies that the scum thought that killing tn5421 would be to their advantage.  Perhaps because he was thought by several players to be town.  Perhaps to cause chaos.  Perhaps because he would be a difficult target to lynch and too risky to want anywhere near LYLO.  I have little reason to lean strongly towards any one of those theories, or any other theory, at this time.

Quote from: TheDarkStar on June 03, 2014, 08:01:23 pm

Thanks for the reads. What is your non-pressure vote? What do you think the scum killing tn implies?

I forgot to put an explicit statement of my read on you in.  I shall correct that now: scum lean.  My reasons are in my reads post.

I wasn't just trying to get you to post reads.  Believe me, I could have done that with a lot less.  I want you to explain your Day 1 behaviour.  Your active-lurky, unfocused Day 1 behaviour.  Your "semi-irrelevant" Day 1 behaviour.

Now, would you be so kind as to actually answer the assorted questions I linked to in my reads post?  Because you're not.  You somehow managed to respond to only the questions I missed, and even those you largely left unanswered:

Quote from: Deathsword on May 28, 2014, 03:40:05 pm

Could you also elaborate on why you basically created two possible scumteams there? (bolded relevant parts). Why would the scum team be, say, borno and Cado instead of borno and Jack?

Quote from: TheDarkStar on June 03, 2014, 08:01:23 pm

Also, to answer his question, I had two main ideas for scumteams because of the way that people seemed to be cooperating, but later things made this doubtful. However, I still see Jack A T as scummy.

You can say your opinions have changed as many times as you want, but that doesn't mean you can avoid explaining why you thought what you claimed to think yesterday.

---

Quote from: TheDarkStar on June 03, 2014, 08:01:23 pm

... you use some reasoning that has mostly been used already.

Do remember that there is a difference between reasoning and evidence.  I used some of the same evidence that others used (the "pressure vote" thing), but the reasoning I used to apply said evidence was very different than prior reasoning.

Also, please preview your posts before posting.  Not only did you leave an extra colour tag in, but you left fragments early on from when you thought I was scum in the Deathsword section of the post before saying in my section that you think I am town.

---

Quote from: LARD on June 03, 2014, 09:25:23 pm

Jack: Probably would have killed Tiruin, the other IC, not tn5421.  But we did make a lot of comments how the doctor/jailkeeper should protect the IC's. Moderate town. I would like to see his opinions on Tiruin

LARD: Please tell me that your read of me is based on more than just very WIFOMy nightkill speculation.  For that matter, please tell me that your read of Tiruin is based on more than just very WIFOMy nightkill speculation.

In addition, why do you think that I would have killed Tiruin (and vice versa)?

Regarding Tiruin, I've given my opinions in my reads.

A question: Did you believe that a living tn5421, with the willingness to play that he demonstrated, would have been an effective destabilizing force?

---

Quote from: RangerCado on June 03, 2014, 09:55:28 pm

   Jack A T: Either good town, or really good scum.

RangerCado: And which do you lean towards me being, if you lean either way?

Quote from: RangerCado on June 03, 2014, 09:55:28 pm

Jack is the kind of IC i'm always wary of as he puts his cases and posts into his tips and explanations. It makes it me nervous, and unsure of what I could be missing in the veil of explanations. I'll have to keep a good eye on his posts, and I encourage the rest of you as well.

Just know that any advice I give is in good faith, and anything else is important to keep a good eye on.

Quote from: RangerCado on June 03, 2014, 09:55:28 pm

Being the final vote on borno before lynch puts you under a bit of suspicion in and of itself. What was your thought process behind that vote?

Spoiler: The Thought Process (click to show/hide)

Quote from: Jack A T on May 29, 2014, 08:52:51 pm

Borno: So, one of your recent posts (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=138613.msg5321450#msg5321450) got me to look back at your activity so far, and I'm noticing an interesting pattern of actions.

See, back when public opinion was turning strongly towards lynching tn5421, you explicitly thought he was scum (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=138613.msg5302834#msg5302834).  Since public opinion shifted against a tn5421 lynch, you've eased off from saying you think he's scum and have stuck to saying that he does things that make him look scummy.

But that would mean little on its own.  People have different writing styles, and non-committal writing sometimes pops up.  A case couldn't reasonably be made on that alone.

Quote from: borno on May 29, 2014, 03:13:45 am

tn5421 not defending himself. It confuses me beyond no end; he is being lazy (scumtell) evasive (scumtell) and uncooperative (scumtell), for what reason? To one-up me or something? I don't understand, and he's holding the whole game up because of it.

Thing is, we're reaching the end of the day, and you're posting stuff like this.  You're doing the "and that's a scumtell!" thing newbies often do to convince people of their arguments against their lynch targets, and you're doing it even more gratuitously than it is usually done.  You're trying to get attention on tn5421 by pointing out scummy actions.  Yet...

Quote from: borno on May 29, 2014, 03:13:45 am

I'm putting my vote on him to try and get him to do something, but all he is posting is sentence long half baked posts. And not even often, either.
[...]
How's that a bad thing? And it's a pressure vote; it is in the most useful place it can be. Unless if you have someone in mind who I should be voting? If he gets lynched for stubbornly refusing to defend himself, so be it.

... you refuse to commit, and distance yourself from the idea that you want tn dead.  Your vote is now a pressure vote, to get tn to act.  Oh, you'd be fine, absolutely fine, with tn5421 being lynched for the inaction and actions you point out, but you're clearly not trying to lynch him or anything.  You're just pressuring him.

You want people voting tn5421.  You want them off you and on tn5421, but you don't want to be seen as the one leading the lynch of tn5421.  The initial push, not led by you, would have been great for you, but now you are nearly alone against tn.  You want him dead, but you don't want to lead the lynch.

So.  I have a few questions for you, borno: Is tn5421 scum?  If so, why avoid actively pushing for his lynch?  Why focus on a "pressure vote" near the end of the day?

PPE:

Quote from: borno on May 29, 2014, 08:04:25 pm

Well, according to the votecount, no, no-one else sees his scuminess. I put that in there because many people believe that he is just a 'misguided townie' or whatever, and certainly not scum.
[...]
No, I attacked him until he kept on refusing to defend himself, and then stopped but didn't remove my vote to try and pressure him into action.

Oh, hey, an announcement that people are missing how scummy tn5421 is, with an implication that if they noticed, they'd be voting for him.  Of course, it's soon followed by a reiteration of your position that your goal for your vote is to pressure tn5421 into acting.

What did you expect to get out of this question?

Quote from: RangerCado on June 03, 2014, 09:55:28 pm

How likely did you think he was scum?

Not incredibly likely, but more likely than anyone else at the time.  Probably around 45%: significantly higher than the baseline chance of 25%, but still a day 1 suspicion.  Still likely wrong.

I think people often think of 50% as a neutral baseline.  It's not.

Quote from: RangerCado on June 03, 2014, 09:55:28 pm

    TheDarkStar: Evidence shows a good lean town, but something is giving me a bad feeling. I don't know what, and have to physical evidence reason why. Something is just... offsetting to me, as bad as that sounds.

Alright, I've been noticing a sort of division you put up in your reads between the evidence (that is, what you think a player's behaviour points to) and your feelings about players (that is, what their behaviour actually points you to).  You did this before, back with your read of tn5421. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=138613.msg5309179#msg5309179)

A few questions:
*What is the evidence that you think points towards TheDarkStar being town?
*Can you think of any reason why you are getting the bad feeling that you are getting?
*Is there a reason for this division of your feelings and what you think the evidence points to?
*Which do you trust more, in general?  How about in this specific situation?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day Two
Post by: Kansa on June 04, 2014, 12:37:44 pm

I'm sorry but I think I should probably drop out of this, I'm not putting in the effort I should do at this moment and I'm really not helping. Someone will probably use this spot better than I am and I think I should watch a few more games before attempting to play one.

I'm sorry

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day Two
Post by: TheDarkStar on June 04, 2014, 01:10:50 pm

Jack A T:

Quote from: Jack A T on June 04, 2014, 01:49:49 am

TheDarkStar:

I forgot to put an explicit statement of my read on you in.  I shall correct that now: scum lean.  My reasons are in my reads post.

I wasn't just trying to get you to post reads.  Believe me, I could have done that with a lot less.  I want you to explain your Day 1 behaviour.  Your active-lurky, unfocused Day 1 behaviour.  Your "semi-irrelevant" Day 1 behaviour.

Now, would you be so kind as to actually answer the assorted questions I linked to in my reads post?  Because you're not.  You somehow managed to respond to only the questions I missed, and even those you largely left unanswered:

Quote from: Deathsword on May 28, 2014, 03:40:05 pm

Could you also elaborate on why you basically created two possible scumteams there? (bolded relevant parts). Why would the scum team be, say, borno and Cado instead of borno and Jack?

Quote from: TheDarkStar on June 03, 2014, 08:01:23 pm

Also, to answer his question, I had two main ideas for scumteams because of the way that people seemed to be cooperating, but later things made this doubtful. However, I still see Jack A T as scummy.

You can say your opinions have changed as many times as you want, but that doesn't mean you can avoid explaining why you thought what you claimed to think yesterday.

---

Quote from: TheDarkStar on June 03, 2014, 08:01:23 pm

... you use some reasoning that has mostly been used already.

Do remember that there is a difference between reasoning and evidence.  I used some of the same evidence that others used (the "pressure vote" thing), but the reasoning I used to apply said evidence was very different than prior reasoning.

Also, please preview your posts before posting.  Not only did you leave an extra colour tag in, but you left fragments early on from when you thought I was scum in the Deathsword section of the post before saying in my section that you think I am town.

1. You only said I was scum now; your previous reason for voting was essentially a pressure vote where you asked me questions and reads. Why do you suddenly think I am scum now?
2. Explanation for my behavior: I replaced in, spent time reading the thread, had some ideas, and then saw more things make my ideas wrong. I thought that I saw scumbuddying between tn and you and between Ranger and borno. Later, though, that fell apart when you and Ranger had similar ideas and finally voted for the same person, I was less sure. Because tn and borno are both town, though, it was an incorrect idea originally.
3. As for the questions, I missed those and thought you were referring to the ones I answered. My responses:
     -I didn't specifically search for scumteams, but I noticed some things that bugged me.
     -I listed the two most likely scumteams from my point of view at that point. Although I didn't make it clear, I was open to there being other ways that it could work out.
     -I think Tiruin is town because she's active and contributes. She's hard to read, though.
     -I suspected buddying between borno and Ranger because Ranger was the only one defending borno for a while.
     -I waited to vote because I was unsure of who to vote for.
4. Good point about reasoning and evidence; I didn't think of it like that.

---

LARD:

Quote from: LARD on June 03, 2014, 09:25:23 pm

To TDS and Jack:  The main suspicion on me, that of voting borno and not tn is understandable, but I addressed it when I made the suspicious statements and votes.  I said that tn is behaving scummy, as in giving up, lashing out etc, but that could just be the signs of not understanding our game play. In addition to that, I agree with 4maskwolf's policy of not lynching new players (judging on their game play) on the first day.  I also thought that having a destabilizing force to the discussions, such as a hot-head or person with different play style would encourage discussion and would help us find scum. 

Anyway, if I was mafia, the only reason I can think of for me to distance myself from tn and not vote him would be if he was mafia.  He is was town, and so I think that point is kind of moot.

Jack A T As for borno's questions, here are the answers
Most of my questions on borno were just to put pressure on, and to tell the truth, I had just jumped in and replaced and I thought borno was the most likely candidate. He reminds me a lot of myself when scum, refusing to rise to bait and calmly refuting evidence, but restating himself and not hunting other people because he is too busy defending himself.
Most of his points on me were just him wondering about my views on him and tn. This is understandable, but I think I explained it here.

Quote from: LARD on May 29, 2014, 11:53:19 pm

Borno seems to me like a fairly experienced player playing scum.
tn5421 seems to me like a rather twitchy player, possibly indicating scum, but more likely indicating unfamiliarity with this forum's playstyle. In any case, he will be useful to stir things up and get reactions, just like I was in my first game.

and here

Quote from: LARD on May 28, 2014, 07:20:31 pm

I agree that he is probably mafia, but I he is typical of depressed new player under fire as exemplified in Kingmaker IV.

I said that borno's vote on tn was useless because tn just gave up. He wouldn't respond to the vote. So borno's vote would probably be more telling elsewhere.

---

Quote from: TheDarkStar on June 03, 2014, 08:01:23 pm

Jack A T
I thought this was going to be a strong scum lean, but then I read through your posts, so you're leaning town.

TDS This is confusing, you say you were incredibly suspicious of Jack, before you read his posts?  I dunno, this seems a bit suspect.  Could just be a slip of the tongue, is that right? Or is there more here?

-snip-

1. You literally said that tn was probably mafia, but you didn't vote for him.
2. borno is new too, right?
3. It could also help to distance yourself from tn by voting for the person who everyone thinks is scummy and then have the person who you decided was town get killed, making you seem more town-aligned.
4. Why do you think borno wasn't voting for tn because he thought tn was scum?
5. I was suspicious of Jack when I just read posts as they came to the thread (and I skimmed some of them), but my opinion changed when I read through things in detail.
6. Updated read list?

Quote from: LARD on June 03, 2014, 09:25:23 pm

Kansa

Quote from: Kansa on May 30, 2014, 03:09:38 pm

To LARD: Honestly because I'm not entirely sure who is and who isn't mafia at this point, I probably should have cast a vote earlier on to add pressure to somebody but as we are really close to the end now it wouldn't do anything.
I would probably wait for them to slip up and contradict something or do something that makes them seem suspicious, I'm not really sure what questions to ask to make them slip up though. As for the actual method of that I would probably as them a question to clarify the part that contradicted something else or made them suspicious in my eyes.

This doesn't sit right for me. You just seem to be acting confused and unsure of yourself. That in itself is not a bad thing, but you use it as an excuse for not hunting or voting.  Don't worry about that, you are far more suspicious when you sit on the fence than when you start hunting and savagely tearing people apart for their smallest verbal blunders.
Oh, and waiting for mafia to slip up and contradict themselves is something that will keep you waiting for a while.  When somebody does contradict themselves, it is more often than not just an honest townie mistake.

So Kansa, You are sitting on the fence, confused and unsure, while afraid to make a move against anybody for fear of looking suspicious.  You should probably have cast your vote, it would have taken the suspicion off your head.  But you didn't. And now bad things will happen.  :P

This isn't actually a good accusation; mafia actually mess up fairly often. Finding it can be difficult, but it's there. Also, when you're confused, random voting or joining the mob is usually a bad idea. Why are you voting someone who seems unsure who to vote for? It's a problem later on, but it's not that bad on Day 1.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day Two
Post by: Teneb on June 04, 2014, 04:46:18 pm

Sorry for dropping like that, but I had internet problems due to a damaged cable as well as tests. That's all done though.

Quote from: RangerCado on May 29, 2014, 09:30:29 am

Whats your take on buddying, if I may ask as well?

It depends a lot on meta. For instance, Tiruin buddying is null, since she tends to do that regardless of alignment. If I don't know someone's meta, or if their meta goes against buddying, then I'd question them.

I didn't suspect borno or tn (although I found tn's resignation from defending himself odd) so the only thing that changed is that I find TDS somewhat scummier.

More comming, I have to go now.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day Two
Post by: LARD on June 04, 2014, 06:02:02 pm

Kansa

Spoiler: Please don't go! (click to show/hide)

 You will have much fun if you stick this out. Even if there seems to be much barely suppressed hostility here, there isn't. It's all fun and games until somebody gets nightkilled!  Mafia is a fun game and this is one of the best places I've found to learn it.  My first game I felt all worried what random strangers on the internet were going to think of me or do to me and now I know it's all for fun. It's rare that anybody leaves worse for playing. (this is only my second game here)

---

Quote from: TheDarkStar on June 04, 2014, 01:10:50 pm

1. You literally said that tn was probably mafia, but you didn't vote for him.
2. borno is new too, right?
3. It could also help to distance yourself from tn by voting for the person who everyone thinks is scummy and then have the person who you decided was town get killed, making you seem more town-aligned.
4. Why do you think borno wasn't voting for tn because he thought tn was scum?
5. I was suspicious of Jack when I just read posts as they came to the thread (and I skimmed some of them), but my opinion changed when I read through things in detail.
6. Updated read list?

Quote from: LARD

So Kansa, You are sitting on the fence, confused and unsure, while afraid to make a move against anybody for fear of looking suspicious.  You should probably have cast your vote, it would have taken the suspicion off your head.  But you didn't. And now bad things will happen.  :P

This isn't actually a good accusation; mafia actually mess up fairly often. Finding it can be difficult, but it's there. Also, when you're confused, random voting or joining the mob is usually a bad idea. Why are you voting someone who seems unsure who to vote for? It's a problem later on, but it's not that bad on Day 1

1. I already responded to this. See above post.
2. He doesn't play like a newb.
3. No it couldn't. It would have made more sense to nk Jack or Tiruin, and then push for a lynch on tn5421. He is a fairly easy target as he went into despair as soon as he had a vote on him.
4. Borno was voting for tn.
5. Not good enough. I need more elaboration. What about your first impressions made you suspicious of him? and why do you think he is town now.
6. No change, except for a bit more suspicious of you. I don't use FoS, but if I did, you would have mine.

I believe that my accusation on Kansa is a good one because he is fence sitting. He was dithering and not making any strong statements or scum-hunting attempts. I guess he was just flying under the radar.
I will unvote for now because he's asked for a replacement, but I will probably interrogate his replacement most strongly.

Also darkstar, I am very close to voting for you, so keep that in mind. It is a little threat, but I am still going after Kansa.

---

Jack:  WIFOM is not all bad, but it isn't very strong either.  I thought you would have killed Tiruin because she is experienced and would help the town. I would expect her to kill you for the same reasons. In truth, I expected anybody to nk an IC.
And tn's apathetic presence -> arguments about whether apathy is scumtell -> arguments in general -> good discussion.  Generally, unexpected happenstances tend to lead us through this process.
See the problem with my read on you is that you just seem to be playing a normal, experienced, mafia game.  You don't seem to take risks and don't stand out except for directing conversation. That is why I can't ready you very well.

Quote from: Jack A T on June 04, 2014, 01:49:49 am

If you're going to try to interpret the NK, do take caution.  It is a road that can easily lead to much WIFOM.  Remember that there are two scum, and that they have a private advisor.  This is not an area from which strong evidence for or against a specific player is likely to come.

It is, however, a good conversation starter and I will milk it to its fullest potential.


Jack and Tiruin As the IC's I would like to see you two go head to head because it would be instructive and interesting. If one of you is scum then I would like to know sooner rather than later because later you will be rallying the town to attack itself because that's what good scum does.

If that is not an option, then at least answer this: What possible motives are there for killing tn5421 other than avoiding being blocked?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day Two
Post by: RangerCado on June 04, 2014, 06:33:55 pm

(Responding to people right after my last post, starting with Jack)

Jack: I am neutral right now, but am going to work on a side before day end.

From your case, I was just prodding really, trying to see if you would attempt to explain your reasons again instead of quoting your previous post with it. Its a way to catch flaws if someone does in the former way, but the latter also can give stuff away depending on the situation. (The 50% baseline on scummy or not scummy is also relative to the player, so I disagree with that reasoning a bit)

My evidence for TDS being town is him being active, making his cases clear and understandable with his points, and (despite it being meta) is acting how i've seen him be town previously, and not how he plays scum generally. (Which for reference is more passive in his hunting) The bad feeling could be something I noticed unconsciously. It may also be that this is the most indepth with his reads that i've seen him go, quoting specific posts in his evidence isn't something i've seen him do before.

Generally, I try to trust my gut on these things as your unconscious mind can usually be trusted for me. In this situation? I'll have to see what I feel at day end.

Kansa: :( :( :( I'm sorry this isn't the game for you.

TDS: In your responses to Jack, you state you saw evidence of me buddying borno? Could you quote or give an example of this? I don't recall this.

borno has also played atleast 2 other BMs that I know of, so he's not THAT new of a player.

LARD: TDS is asking why you think borno's vote wasn't based on thinking he was scum, not why borno wasn't voting tn thought he was. Also, the NK of an IC doesn't always reveal much information, and in fact can be used to create suspicion against them for various reasons. (Though that is stepping into even more WIFOM territory, which I try to avoid despite the hilarity of the Princess Bride.)

And what do you believe will change when Kansa is replaced? Do you really see anything scummy about his confused and unsure play?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day Two
Post by: Silthuri on June 04, 2014, 09:39:21 pm

Votecount:

• LARD:
• TheDarkStar: Jack A T (1)
• Deathsword:
• RangerCado: TheDarkStar (1)
• Kansa:
• Jack A T:
• Tiruin:

Not voting: Kansa, Deathsword, RangerCado, Tiruin, LARD

Day two will end tomorrow at 10 pm EST.

Votes to extend: [0/3]
Votes to shorten: [0/4]

Kansa has requested replacement.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day Two
Post by: Jack A T on June 05, 2014, 02:29:12 am

Very quick post before sleep:

Extend.

MyOwnWorstEnemy: Please prod Tiruin.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day Two
Post by: Tiruin on June 05, 2014, 07:01:46 am

Extend
Bad stuff happened IRL in the past couple of days. Sorry.

Edit: MOWE didn't send a Prod, I was mentally prodded :P
This has been on my mind sine day start but...I could only post in things just to get them going--couldn't think about this much in the meantime.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day Two
Post by: LARD on June 05, 2014, 08:16:29 am

Extend too, not much else from me. Sorry.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day Two
Post by: Silthuri on June 05, 2014, 08:56:51 am

PTDfun has replaced Kansa!

Day has been extended! Day ends Monday at 10 pm EST.

Quote from: Tiruin on June 05, 2014, 07:01:46 am

Edit: MOWE didn't send a Prod, I was mentally prodded :P

I've only actually managed to prod like 2 people. By the time I see the requests and such, they've posted.

MOWE is bad mod... :(

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day Two
Post by: LARD on June 05, 2014, 06:47:39 pm

Alright PTDfun I don't know how much experience you have (please tell me) or what your game is.  But I thought your predecessor was scum and as follows, you are.

Seriously though, if you could do a few things on this list, that would be great.
1. Tell us your previous mafia experience. I'm pretty new around here, so if you are a regular, I apologize.
2. Read the last few pages thoroughly (if not the whole game) and tell us your suspect list.
3. Start attacking someone.
4. Ask for advice from the IC's
5. Ask for updates on the game.
6. Read people's read lists. For me this is what I use to get the gist of a game.

Sorry, I'm not trying to be an IC, but I want a good idea of you before I put my vote back where it was.
Hope to hear from you!

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day Two
Post by: Jack A T on June 05, 2014, 06:56:13 pm

Kansa: Sad to see you go.  You gave it a good try, though, and it is good to see that you are still interested in Mafia.  I hope to see you around here again soon.

---

PTDfun: Welcome to the game!  After you read through the thread, please give your thoughts on the game so far, including reads of your fellow players.  In addition, would you mind summarizing your previous Mafia experience, if any?

---

Quote from: TheDarkStar on June 04, 2014, 01:10:50 pm

1. You only said I was scum now; your previous reason for voting was essentially a pressure vote where you asked me questions and reads. Why do you suddenly think I am scum now?

TheDarkStar:To answer your question...

Quote from: Jack A T on June 04, 2014, 01:49:49 am

I forgot to put an explicit statement of my read on you in.  I shall correct that now: scum lean.  My reasons are in my reads post.

What is it about bold red text followed by "TheDarkStar appears to be trying to give the impression of being here, but without actually saying anything of substance" that makes you only think "pressure vote"?

Quote from: TheDarkStar on June 04, 2014, 01:10:50 pm

     -I suspected buddying between borno and Ranger because Ranger was the only one defending borno for a while.

Huh?  Can you give any example of this?  The only defense of borno by RangerCado I can find is the one regarding that baseless accusation about RVS question writing style, and Ranger certainly wasn't alone in pointing out how poor that accusation was.  After the tn5421 mess, Cado began his attack on borno, which clearly isn't a defense of borno.

Furthermore, did you have any reasons to lean towards borno being scum aside from RangerCado's actions?

---

Quote from: LARD on June 04, 2014, 06:02:02 pm

Jack and Tiruin As the IC's I would like to see you two go head to head because it would be instructive and interesting. If one of you is scum then I would like to know sooner rather than later because later you will be rallying the town to attack itself because that's what good scum does.

LARD: You do realize that you can't just tell two people to attack each other, right?

Quote from: LARD on June 04, 2014, 06:02:02 pm

If that is not an option, then at least answer this: What possible motives are there for killing tn5421 other than avoiding being blocked?

A few posts back, in a spoiler addressed to TheDarkStar (spoilers being a useful way to organize posts.  Do read spoilers not addressed to you.  It's worthwhile.), I listed a few of the many, many possibilities.

Quote from: Jack A T on June 04, 2014, 01:49:49 am

Perhaps because he was thought by several players to be town.  Perhaps to cause chaos.  Perhaps because he would be a difficult target to lynch and too risky to want anywhere near LYLO.  I have little reason to lean strongly towards any one of those theories, or any other theory, at this time.

There are a lot of possibilities, and those are just a start.

Quote from: LARD on June 04, 2014, 06:02:02 pm

6. No change, except for a bit more suspicious of you [TDS]. I don't use FoS, but if I did, you would have mine.
[...]
Also darkstar, I am very close to voting for you, so keep that in mind. It is a little threat, but I am still going after Kansa.

Why?  What was it about TheDarkStar's actions after you posted your reads that made you more suspicious of him?  About how strongly do you suspect him compared to Kansa/PTDfun?

One more question to you, LARD: Did Kansa's replacement request have any effect on your read of him?  If so, what?

---

Quote from: RangerCado on June 03, 2014, 09:55:28 pm

Was it a bandwagon vote to avoid suspicion?

RangerCado: I notice I missed this reaction test.  The answer is no.  Considering you didn't call me out for failing to answer this, I assume you didn't care much about this question?

---

MyOwnWorstEnemy: You're fine.  I think prod demands themselves are often enough to get quiet players to speak, when said players are kind of watching the thread.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day Two
Post by: Silthuri on June 05, 2014, 08:41:40 pm

Votecount:

• LARD:
• TheDarkStar: Jack A T (1)
• Deathsword:
• RangerCado: TheDarkStar (1)
• PTDfun:
• Jack A T:
• Tiruin:

Not voting: PTDfun, Deathsword, RangerCado, Tiruin, LARD

Day two will end Monday at 10 pm EST.

Votes to extend: [0/3]
Votes to shorten: [0/4]

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day Two
Post by: TheDarkStar on June 05, 2014, 09:06:15 pm

Quote from: Jack A T on June 05, 2014, 06:56:13 pm

Quote from: TheDarkStar on June 04, 2014, 01:10:50 pm

1. You only said I was scum now; your previous reason for voting was essentially a pressure vote where you asked me questions and reads. Why do you suddenly think I am scum now?

TheDarkStar:To answer your question...

Quote from: Jack A T on June 04, 2014, 01:49:49 am

I forgot to put an explicit statement of my read on you in.  I shall correct that now: scum lean.  My reasons are in my reads post.

What is it about bold red text followed by "TheDarkStar appears to be trying to give the impression of being here, but without actually saying anything of substance" that makes you only think "pressure vote"?

Quote from: TheDarkStar on June 04, 2014, 01:10:50 pm

     -I suspected buddying between borno and Ranger because Ranger was the only one defending borno for a while.

Huh?  Can you give any example of this?  The only defense of borno by RangerCado I can find is the one regarding that baseless accusation about RVS question writing style, and Ranger certainly wasn't alone in pointing out how poor that accusation was.  After the tn5421 mess, Cado began his attack on borno, which clearly isn't a defense of borno.

Furthermore, did you have any reasons to lean towards borno being scum aside from RangerCado's actions?

1. It seemed to be a pressure vote, since you listed lots of reasons why I should be saying stuff and directed me to questions that I should answer.
2. Hm, I thought I saw buddying going on. I must have misread the name of an author somewhere. However, I did note that my ideas were bad once I looked at thing in more detail, so I mostly just spoke too soon.
3. He and tn were involved in a heated argument, and I tend to see people like that as slightly scummy. I did not vote for borno or tn because I was unsure about them being scum (borno seemed town to me by the end, and there was an explanation for tn's actions).

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day Two
Post by: LARD on June 06, 2014, 08:59:40 am

Quote from: Jack A T on June 05, 2014, 06:56:13 pm

Quote from: LARD on June 04, 2014, 06:02:02 pm

Jack and Tiruin As the IC's I would like to see you two go head to head because it would be instructive and interesting. If one of you is scum then I would like to know sooner rather than later because later you will be rallying the town to attack itself because that's what good scum does.

LARD: You do realize that you can't just tell two people to attack each other, right?

Quote from: LARD on June 04, 2014, 06:02:02 pm

If that is not an option, then at least answer this: What possible motives are there for killing tn5421 other than avoiding being blocked?

A few posts back, in a spoiler addressed to TheDarkStar (spoilers being a useful way to organize posts.  Do read spoilers not addressed to you.  It's worthwhile.), I listed a few of the many, many possibilities.

Quote from: Jack A T on June 04, 2014, 01:49:49 am

Perhaps because he was thought by several players to be town.  Perhaps to cause chaos.  Perhaps because he would be a difficult target to lynch and too risky to want anywhere near LYLO.  I have little reason to lean strongly towards any one of those theories, or any other theory, at this time.

There are a lot of possibilities, and those are just a start.

Quote from: LARD on June 04, 2014, 06:02:02 pm

6. No change, except for a bit more suspicious of you [TDS]. I don't use FoS, but if I did, you would have mine.
[...]
Also darkstar, I am very close to voting for you, so keep that in mind. It is a little threat, but I am still going after Kansa.

Why?  What was it about TheDarkStar's actions after you posted your reads that made you more suspicious of him?  About how strongly do you suspect him compared to Kansa/PTDfun?

One more question to you, LARD: Did Kansa's replacement request have any effect on your read of him?  If so, what?

1. Ok, by attack I meant put pressure on, because in your position, I would feel nervous not knowing whether the other most experienced player was mafia or not. Pressure and discussion was what I was asking for.
2&3. I guess guessing motives for the mafiakill isn't as telling as I thought it would be. Thanks for the help.
4. TDS always plays suspiciously in my eyes. Maybe it's the way he defends himself almost frantically, maybe it is the way he posts and then corrects himself. Those in themselves are not explicit scumtells, but they are suspicious.  I also said earlier that his comment about skimming your posts and forming an idea about you before he read in depth was suspect.   He FoS'ed me for some reason that I had already explained.  Little things like that make me think he is slightly "off"
5. Kansa on the other hand was just fence sitting, like an inexperienced mafia player is wont to do.  He dithered and didn't want to make a decision unless it was based off somebody else's scumhunting, as in, "wait until the mafia slips up".   His requesting replacement was suspect, like a mafia panicking under fire, but it also reminds me of my last game (also my first game) where I came under fire and worried a lot about how much random people on the internet despised me. I don't function well on the internet.  I hope it's not that, which is why I posted my little spoiler to him.  But I'll have to wait to put my vote back until PTDfun posts. If he doesn't post before day end, I will put it back on him.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day Two
Post by: PTDfun on June 06, 2014, 09:26:39 am

Quote from: LARD on June 05, 2014, 06:47:39 pm

Alright PTDfun I don't know how much experience you have (please tell me) or what your game is.  But I thought your predecessor was scum and as follows, you are.

Seriously though, if you could do a few things on this list, that would be great.
1. Tell us your previous mafia experience. I'm pretty new around here, so if you are a regular, I apologize.
2. Read the last few pages thoroughly (if not the whole game) and tell us your suspect list.
3. Start attacking someone.
4. Ask for advice from the IC's
5. Ask for updates on the game.
6. Read people's read lists. For me this is what I use to get the gist of a game.

Sorry, I'm not trying to be an IC, but I want a good idea of you before I put my vote back where it was.
Hope to hear from you!

1. This is my first time to play mafia online. I've played it in person about 10 times. My brother used to play mafia online and tell me about it. I've played before with more roles than cop and doc.
2. I'll be rereading the full thread tonight - got work today.
3. Will do.
4-6. Sounds good and thanks. (btw, what does IC stand for?)

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day Two
Post by: TheDarkStar on June 06, 2014, 12:29:25 pm

Quote from: LARD on June 06, 2014, 08:59:40 am

1. Ok, by attack I meant put pressure on, because in your position, I would feel nervous not knowing whether the other most experienced player was mafia or not. Pressure and discussion was what I was asking for.

Why didn't you just put pressure on them yourself? They might be experienced, but it's a good idea to put pressure on people you find scummy to see how they react. You'll also learn a lot from pressuring experience people.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day Two
Post by: TheDarkStar on June 06, 2014, 12:30:24 pm

Quote from: TheDarkStar on June 06, 2014, 12:29:25 pm

PTDfun:

Quote from: PTDfun on June 06, 2014, 09:26:39 am

(btw, what does IC stand for?)

Inexperience Challenged. On these forums in beginner Mafia games, it refers to the experienced people who have signed up to help new people along with playing (except the mafia IC, who just advises them). The ones for this game are Jack A T and Tiruin, which you probably already know.

Also, what are your reads?

LARD:

Quote from: LARD on June 06, 2014, 08:59:40 am

1. Ok, by attack I meant put pressure on, because in your position, I would feel nervous not knowing whether the other most experienced player was mafia or not. Pressure and discussion was what I was asking for.

Why didn't you just put pressure on them yourself? They might be experienced, but it's a good idea to put pressure on people you find scummy to see how they react.

EBWOP.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day Two
Post by: Silthuri on June 06, 2014, 11:12:07 pm

Votecount:

• LARD:
• TheDarkStar: Jack A T (1)
• Deathsword:
• RangerCado: TheDarkStar (1)
• PTDfun:
• Jack A T:
• Tiruin:

Not voting: PTDfun, Deathsword, RangerCado, Tiruin, LARD

Day two will end Monday at 10 pm EST.

Votes to extend: [0/3]
Votes to shorten: [0/4]

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day Two
Post by: PTDfun on June 07, 2014, 02:21:38 am

I read the first 100 posts tonight.

I am surprised tn5421 was killed by mafia. His use of misdirection and lack of asking questions in those posts made him look scummy. Mafia should have kept him alive as a decoy. (I'll come back to this when I finish catching up)

TheDarkStar and Tiruin: What do you think the best way to play mafia (as in scum roles) is?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day Two
Post by: Jack A T on June 07, 2014, 07:48:27 pm

Extend.  Day ends in two days and we have little to no content from 3/7 players.

---

Alright.  I think TheDarkStar's strange, aimless Day 1 read list was likely a result of rushing through the thread after replacing in.  Evidence particularly backing this is the thing about Ranger defending borno, a significant mistake in thread examination.  However, the fact that it took as much effort as it did to get that information out of him is disappointing, and troubling.

More troubling is some behaviour I'm seeing this day.

TheDarkStar: You are voting for RangerCado, and you asserted that you lean moderately (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=138613.msg5338963#msg5338963) towards him being scum.  With that vote, you asked him a set of questions.

You have not done a single thing to improve your read of or advance your case against your stated top suspect since then.

Soon, RangerCado responded (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=138613.msg5339267#msg5339267), both answering your questions and asking you a set of questions.  You haven't responded.  Cado later addressed a statement to you (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=138613.msg5342213#msg5342213) regarding one of your points against LARD (who you are focusing on but not voting for).  No response.

So, after you answer Cado's questions, I want you to answer two of my own:
*Most players who care about catching scum care about the answers to questions they ask, especially when dealing with their suspects.  Why don't you care?
*Most players who care about catching scum care about the actions of their top suspect.  You're clearly not looking at your top suspect.  Why not?

---

Quote from: LARD on June 06, 2014, 08:59:40 am

His requesting replacement was suspect, like a mafia panicking under fire...

LARD: Alright, I really have to wonder how this notion is in the heads of so many newbies.  Replacement requests should be assumed to be in good faith, and I've never seen scum quit the game to give the team they would no longer be on an advantage.

Not exactly the answer I was expecting (I was expecting something about earlier apparent nervousness about Mafia and the stated reasons for a replacement request), but I guess that's an answer.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day Two
Post by: Silthuri on June 07, 2014, 10:14:14 pm

Votecount:

• LARD:
• TheDarkStar: Jack A T (1)
• Deathsword:
• RangerCado: TheDarkStar (1)
• PTDfun:
• Jack A T:
• Tiruin:

Not voting: PTDfun, Deathsword, RangerCado, Tiruin, LARD

Day two will end Monday at 10 pm EST.

Votes to extend: [1/3]
Votes to shorten: [0/4]

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day Two
Post by: LARD on June 08, 2014, 09:18:10 am

Quote from: TheDarkStar on June 06, 2014, 12:29:25 pm

Quote from: LARD on June 06, 2014, 08:59:40 am

1. Ok, by attack I meant put pressure on, because in your position, I would feel nervous not knowing whether the other most experienced player was mafia or not. Pressure and discussion was what I was asking for.

Why didn't you just put pressure on them yourself? They might be experienced, but it's a good idea to put pressure on people you find scummy to see how they react. You'll also learn a lot from pressuring experience people.

Simply because pressure from an IC means a lot more and carries a lot more weight than anything I could offer.  If I put pressure on one of them, they would calmly refute it because it would probably have to be about some stupid wording or interpretation error.  Not to say I won't try. Things are going slow around here though and it's the weekend.

Quote from: LARD on June 05, 2014, 06:47:39 pm

-snip- I want a good idea of you before I put my vote back where it was.
Hope to hear from you!

PTDfun:   OK, I heard from you.  I still think you are mafia because of your unwillingness to post anything long and detailed.  Your posts have been short and generic. I realize this could just be because you are still reading and getting the gist of the game.  I would be completely open to being convinced by you about your not being scummy.
RVSP

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day Two
Post by: PTDfun on June 08, 2014, 11:12:28 pm

My head hurts from reading all this. So much to sort through. Below are two reads. I will try to post more of them tomorrow morning. Extend

Quote from: Jack A T on June 05, 2014, 06:56:13 pm

PTDfun: Welcome to the game!  After you read through the thread, please give your thoughts on the game so far, including reads of your fellow players.  In addition, would you mind summarizing your previous Mafia experience, if any?

TheDarkStar: You seem scummy to me. Please give the reasons for the following:
1. You avoided doing much for the first 6 days you were playing. By looking at your forum profile I can see that you were quite active posting on other things at the time.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Posted his reads May 28th

Quote from: TheDarkStar on May 28, 2014, 03:17:16 pm

Time for my reads, based on reading the thread. Also, if Darkpaladin gets modkilled, it's MYLO.

darkpaladin109: Null read due to inactivity. I'll probably ask more things to his replacement if there is one.
borno: Active, but tunneling. Slight scum lean. If scum, then RangerCado is probably also scum.
TheDarkStar: Confirmed town for me  .
Deathsword: Scripten was inactive, so null read for now.
tn5421: Slight scum lean due to odd behavior, but (as Jack says) that could be unrelated to scumminess. If scum, then Jack A T is probably also scum.
RangerCado: Slight scum lean. Possibly borno's scumbuddy if borno is scum.
Kansa: Just started being active, but there isn't any reason to suspect him. Slight town lean.
Jack A T: Slight scum lean due to waving away problems with tn5421's argument. Probably tn5421's scumbuddy if tn5421 is scum.
Tiruin: Active now, and was inactive due to RL. Town lean.

I'll detail the reasons for why I think Jack A T and RangerCado are scum later, but at least one if not two of the scum are in the list of tn5421, borno, Jack A T, and RangerCado.

His post on the 30th was a cop out.

Quote from: TheDarkStar on May 30, 2014, 03:06:41 pm

Well, it looks like I took too long to get around to looking at the four people I mentioned in detail. Because of the lack of time, I'll delay finishing looking at stuff until tonight, since I'll be able to see the lynch results. If I die tonight, though, take a look in detail at the three remaining people.

First post containing questions was on June 3rd. That's 6 days after joining the game.

Quote from: TheDarkStar on June 03, 2014, 08:01:23 pm

As I said, here are my reads:

LARD:
Slight scum lean, due to post 213 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=138613.msg5322042#msg5322042) where he decides that borno is scum rather than tn for unclear reasoning and post 203 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=138613.195) for voting borno despite saying that he things that tn is probably scum. However, in those same posts, he questions people and scumhunts to an extent. He also replaced in at the end of the day, so there's a reason for him having less. As for darkpaladin, there is barely anything to go off of (but his reads list will be useful later in this game).

LARD, why did you think borno was scum (or scummier) rather than tn? What are your reads?

Deathsword:
Null read due to almost no real posts excused due to RL and replacing another nearly non-active person. Also, to answer his question, I had two main ideas for scumteams because of the way that people seemed to be cooperating, but later things made this doubtful. However, I still see Jack A T as scummy.

What are your reads, in light of last night's events? Please be more active.

RangerCado:
Moderate scum lean. Post 158 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=138613.msg5310277#msg5310277): Seems to be interpreting what borno says differently, where he takes a random question as bad scumhunting and votes borno for this. Also, he is the only one who is really defending tn for a while, which could mean that he has insider knowledge. Also, post 156 (just use the previous link): He states that he is voting against the evidence that he sees. In (post 144 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=138613.msg5307028#msg5307028)), he shows all these reasons that tn is scummy and then unvotes him and focuses on someone else.

Why did you not vote for tn? Why did you interpret borno's post the way you did? What are your reads?

Kansa:
Null read due to near-inactivity.

Get in here and tell us your reads!

Tiruin:
Moderate town lean. In post 229/230 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=138613.msg5325943#msg5325943), she seems like town due to trying to figure things out and asking questions. However, I have trouble getting a good read for her in general.

What do you think of yesterday's events? What do you vote now? What are your reads?

Jack A T[/color]:
I thought this was going to be a strong scum lean, but then I read through your posts, so you're leaning town. In the post just above this one (238), he votes for me rather than RangerCado, who he gives a scum lean, or LARD, who he gives a minor scum lean. However, this could simply be there to pressure me into giving my reads. You voted for borno at the end of the day, possibly for credit in post 218 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=138613.msg5323786#msg5323786), and you use some reasoning that has mostly been used already. Because there is new reasoning there (and you have been doing some scumhunting throughout the game), though, I think that you found it on your own.

Thanks for the reads. What is your non-pressure vote? What do you think the scum killing tn implies?

2. Your posts since have been mostly defense.

Also, Fniff was fairly inactive. His posts were either

Quote from: Fniff on May 21, 2014, 01:59:18 pm

Oh hey, I'm here, don't worry.

type statements, responses to others, or vague theory about not voting for someone without sufficient evidence. He spent more effort on theorizing on when not to vote for someone than he did on how to actually identify scum. This seems scummy because the mafia benefits by convincing other players to doubt. He was requested to ask questions by tn and Jack A T and never did. I know you don't have any control over that, but since your are playing his slot, it's a point against you.

Tiruin: I know that RL keeps getting in the way, but I also think you are slightly on the scummy side. Difficulties in RL serve as legitimate grounds for lurking (which benefit the mafia). You have managed to make a few posts, but I did not find them to contribute much.

Quote from: LARD on June 08, 2014, 09:18:10 am

PTDfun:   OK, I heard from you.  I still think you are mafia because of your unwillingness to post anything long and detailed.  Your posts have been short and generic. I realize this could just be because you are still reading and getting the gist of the game.  I would be completely open to being convinced by you about your not being scummy.
RVSP

LARD: The post from MOWE that announced me joining the game was around 10am on the 5th (for me). I worked on the 5th all day and got home around 11pm and hit the sack. I made sure to check the forum the next morning - hence my first post.  I worked the 6th and 7th too for long days. I'm gutting a house right now (ripping out floors and walls) so I hope you'll understand I'm a bit tired when I get back. I was gone all day today as well, but for other reasons. This is why my posts have been infrequent since I joined. The shortness of those posts had to do not only with being tired and it being late, but also for lack of information (since I had to catch up). As of now I have read the 267 previous posts, and I hope to be making a bit of a contribution. Note that I am the same slot as my predecessor, and the main complaint with him was his passiveness, which he defended on the grounds of being confused about what he could contribute. So my defense to your voting for me is my above reads and my future aggressive activity in the game.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day Two
Post by: Jack A T on June 08, 2014, 11:42:17 pm

Day ends tomorrow, and we have a tie, an absolute newcomer just becoming active, and two inactive (but not yet prod-level inactive) players.

We really should extend.

---

PTDFun: A quick question with regard to your attack on TheDarkStar: When looking at his early inactivity, did you take into account the fact that 2 of those 6 days were during the night, when nobody could post?

LARD: If you had just replaced in, and had only read early posts in the thread, do you think you would be able or willing to post anything long and detailed about the game?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day Two
Post by: Tiruin on June 09, 2014, 09:11:18 am

Extend, post coming up.
Being sick + depressed + :( ==  :'(
Sorry for being that one IC x_x
^{Who's like, inactive. But I'm active :x}

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day Two
Post by: TheDarkStar on June 09, 2014, 01:31:08 pm

Quote from: PTDfun on June 08, 2014, 11:12:28 pm

TheDarkStar: You seem scummy to me. Please give the reasons for the following:
1. You avoided doing much for the first 6 days you were playing. By looking at your forum profile I can see that you were quite active posting on other things at the time.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Posted his reads May 28th

Quote from: TheDarkStar on May 28, 2014, 03:17:16 pm

Time for my reads, based on reading the thread. Also, if Darkpaladin gets modkilled, it's MYLO.

darkpaladin109: Null read due to inactivity. I'll probably ask more things to his replacement if there is one.
borno: Active, but tunneling. Slight scum lean. If scum, then RangerCado is probably also scum.
TheDarkStar: Confirmed town for me  .
Deathsword: Scripten was inactive, so null read for now.
tn5421: Slight scum lean due to odd behavior, but (as Jack says) that could be unrelated to scumminess. If scum, then Jack A T is probably also scum.
RangerCado: Slight scum lean. Possibly borno's scumbuddy if borno is scum.
Kansa: Just started being active, but there isn't any reason to suspect him. Slight town lean.
Jack A T: Slight scum lean due to waving away problems with tn5421's argument. Probably tn5421's scumbuddy if tn5421 is scum.
Tiruin: Active now, and was inactive due to RL. Town lean.

I'll detail the reasons for why I think Jack A T and RangerCado are scum later, but at least one if not two of the scum are in the list of tn5421, borno, Jack A T, and RangerCado.

His post on the 30th was a cop out.

Quote from: TheDarkStar on May 30, 2014, 03:06:41 pm

Well, it looks like I took too long to get around to looking at the four people I mentioned in detail. Because of the lack of time, I'll delay finishing looking at stuff until tonight, since I'll be able to see the lynch results. If I die tonight, though, take a look in detail at the three remaining people.

First post containing questions was on June 3rd. That's 6 days after joining the game.

Quote from: TheDarkStar on June 03, 2014, 08:01:23 pm

As I said, here are my reads:

LARD:
Slight scum lean, due to post 213 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=138613.msg5322042#msg5322042) where he decides that borno is scum rather than tn for unclear reasoning and post 203 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=138613.195) for voting borno despite saying that he things that tn is probably scum. However, in those same posts, he questions people and scumhunts to an extent. He also replaced in at the end of the day, so there's a reason for him having less. As for darkpaladin, there is barely anything to go off of (but his reads list will be useful later in this game).

LARD, why did you think borno was scum (or scummier) rather than tn? What are your reads?

Deathsword:
Null read due to almost no real posts excused due to RL and replacing another nearly non-active person. Also, to answer his question, I had two main ideas for scumteams because of the way that people seemed to be cooperating, but later things made this doubtful. However, I still see Jack A T as scummy.

What are your reads, in light of last night's events? Please be more active.

RangerCado:
Moderate scum lean. Post 158 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=138613.msg5310277#msg5310277): Seems to be interpreting what borno says differently, where he takes a random question as bad scumhunting and votes borno for this. Also, he is the only one who is really defending tn for a while, which could mean that he has insider knowledge. Also, post 156 (just use the previous link): He states that he is voting against the evidence that he sees. In (post 144 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=138613.msg5307028#msg5307028)), he shows all these reasons that tn is scummy and then unvotes him and focuses on someone else.

Why did you not vote for tn? Why did you interpret borno's post the way you did? What are your reads?

Kansa:
Null read due to near-inactivity.

Get in here and tell us your reads!

Tiruin:
Moderate town lean. In post 229/230 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=138613.msg5325943#msg5325943), she seems like town due to trying to figure things out and asking questions. However, I have trouble getting a good read for her in general.

What do you think of yesterday's events? What do you vote now? What are your reads?

Jack A T[/color]:
I thought this was going to be a strong scum lean, but then I read through your posts, so you're leaning town. In the post just above this one (238), he votes for me rather than RangerCado, who he gives a scum lean, or LARD, who he gives a minor scum lean. However, this could simply be there to pressure me into giving my reads. You voted for borno at the end of the day, possibly for credit in post 218 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=138613.msg5323786#msg5323786), and you use some reasoning that has mostly been used already. Because there is new reasoning there (and you have been doing some scumhunting throughout the game), though, I think that you found it on your own.

Thanks for the reads. What is your non-pressure vote? What do you think the scum killing tn implies?

2. Your posts since have been mostly defense.

Also, Fniff was fairly inactive. His posts were either

Quote from: Fniff on May 21, 2014, 01:59:18 pm

Oh hey, I'm here, don't worry.

type statements, responses to others, or vague theory about not voting for someone without sufficient evidence. He spent more effort on theorizing on when not to vote for someone than he did on how to actually identify scum. This seems scummy because the mafia benefits by convincing other players to doubt. He was requested to ask questions by tn and Jack A T and never did. I know you don't have any control over that, but since your are playing his slot, it's a point against you.

1. It's usual for me to not do much on Day 1 in games.

Post on the 30th:

Question Post: I had RL going on, and two of those days were during the night. Also, see what I said above. Also, have you posted your reads yet? Even if Kansa has posted them, I want to see your reads.

What are examples of my defensive posting? You can say whatever you want, but it is useless unless you include evidence.

Yes, Fniff was inactive. That's why he requested replacement - he didn't think he could spend enough time playing this.

PTDFun: Why didn't you vote for me? Also, Kansa was even less active than me. Why do you think that Fniff's inaction is more significant than Kansa's inaction?

MOWE:

Sorry for this, but I'm asking for replacement. I will be unable to post for a month or two.

Is this four replacements so far?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day Two
Post by: Teneb on June 09, 2014, 05:24:21 pm

Extend

Just got an internship and am quite tired. I'll try to post later after resting a bit.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day Two
Post by: LARD on June 09, 2014, 05:49:18 pm

No time, Extend as well.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day Two
Post by: PTDfun on June 09, 2014, 05:50:55 pm

This question still needs answering. If TheDarkStar doesn't want to answer, then I'll refer it to his replacement.
TheDarkStar and Tiruin:

Quote from: PTDfun on June 07, 2014, 02:21:38 am

What do you think the best way to play mafia (as in scum roles) is?

I know it's a bit open ended. Answer however you would like. I am asking about strategy. Assuming you are town, it will be helpful for scum hunting. Assuming you are scum, it may also be helpful for scum hunting.

---

Jack A T and TheDarkStar:

Quote from: Jack A T on June 08, 2014, 11:42:17 pm

PTDFun: A quick question with regard to your attack on TheDarkStar: When looking at his early inactivity, did you take into account the fact that 2 of those 6 days were during the night, when nobody could post?

That is a good point that I did not take into account.

---

Quote from: Tiruin on June 09, 2014, 09:11:18 am

Extend, post coming up.
Being sick + depressed + :( ==  :'(
Sorry for being that one IC x_x
^{Who's like, inactive. But I'm active :x}

Tiruin: I am sorry that you have been sick and depressed, and that RL has been a pain in your butt the past few weeks. (To be clear, I am being entirely genuine.) With that said, you might want to get a replacement rather than trying to juggle this game (a lesser obligation) with things in RL that have consequences. I'm new, so I don't know how that works for an IC, but it's worth considering and completely acceptable.

---

TheDarkStar:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Quote from: TheDarkStar on June 09, 2014, 01:31:08 pm

Also, have you posted your reads yet? Even if Kansa has posted them, I want to see your reads.

My remaining reads are posted below.

Quote from: TheDarkStar on June 09, 2014, 01:31:08 pm

What are examples of my defensive posting? You can say whatever you want, but it is useless unless you include evidence.

Evidence:
Reply 189 was a request to reread thread to get a good understanding of what is going on. (sounds great)
Reply 195 gave initial reads.
Reply 239 gave updated reads and questions.
Reply 246 is defensive. Long defense, little offense. The only questions are in the snipped quote below.

Quote from: TheDarkStar on June 04, 2014, 01:10:50 pm

Why do you suddenly think I am scum now?
2. borno is new too, right?
4. Why do you think borno wasn't voting for tn because he thought tn was scum?
6. Updated read list?
Why are you voting someone who seems unsure who to vote for?

Reply 258 is defense.
Reply 261 is offense.
Reply 271 is defense against me.
So, out of the four posts (there were other posts, but they didn't contribute anything to the game) that followed your reads, three were defensive (or 2.5, if I'm going to be generous).

Quote from: TheDarkStar on June 09, 2014, 01:31:08 pm

Yes, Fniff was inactive. That's why he requested replacement - he didn't think he could spend enough time playing this.

Yup. I'm keeping that in mind. It's still a point against.

Quote from: TheDarkStar on June 09, 2014, 01:31:08 pm

PTDFun: Why didn't you vote for me? Also, Kansa was even less active than me. Why do you think that Fniff's inaction is more significant than Kansa's inaction?

I didn't vote for you because
(a) I am still trying to figure out how this game works. From my previous reading of the thread it seems that FOS is the way to communicate a threat to another player to extract information without the risk entailed of voting for them.
(b) I am not convinced enough to want to kill you yet.
(c)

Quote from: Jack A T on May 28, 2014, 09:14:15 pm

LARD:
1. RVS has been over for a while now.

I cannot vote for Kansa, now can I? It would be absurd to self-vote whether I am mafia or townie. Fniff's inaction is more significant to me because I know Kansa's role and I don't know Fniff's. Both had an excuse of being busy. I still hold it as a point against you in the same way that LARD holds it against me.

Finally,

Quote from: TheDarkStar on May 28, 2014, 03:17:16 pm

I'll detail the reasons for why I think Jack A T and RangerCado are scum later, but at least one if not two of the scum are in the list of tn5421, borno, Jack A T, and RangerCado.

Reply 231 opted out of giving the reads above.

Quote from: TheDarkStar on June 02, 2014, 10:22:14 pm

My ideas about who the scum are are semi-irrelevant now in light of who has died, although Ranger and Jack are not off my suspicion list. Also, due to voting a guy who flipped townie, LARD is also on my suspicion list until I got through posts in detail.

I would like to know why you thought Jack A T and RangerCado are scum prior to the nightfall.

---

My reads:

LARD: Town leaning.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I like his statements here:

Quote from: LARD on May 29, 2014, 09:47:43 am

My point was that I like to have unbalancing forces in the game, such as an edgy player like tn5421.

Quote from: LARD on May 29, 2014, 11:53:19 pm

tn5421 seems to me like a rather twitchy player, possibly indicating scum, but more likely indicating unfamiliarity with this forum's playstyle. In any case, he will be useful to stir things up and get reactions, just like I was in my first game.
Sorry, no time to respond further.

Quote from: PTDfun on June 07, 2014, 02:21:38 am

I am surprised tn5421 was killed by mafia. His use of misdirection and lack of asking questions in those posts made him look scummy. Mafia should have kept him alive as a decoy. (I'll come back to this when I finish catching up)

I think that his two statements answer my question about tn5421. DarkPaladin was lurky, but I think that LARD has mostly redeemed that. I like his points about Jack A T seeming a little suspicious:

Quote from: LARD on May 28, 2014, 07:20:31 pm

Jack: seems to be almost running the show, or maybe that's just because you're the most active IC.

Quote from: LARD on May 28, 2014, 07:20:31 pm

Jack: You seem to be spending a large amount of your time commenting on other peoples questions. This makes it seem like you are pushing attention to other people's problems.  I guess you never want to attract too much attention to yourself, but it does seem like you are pushing random people without any order.

Finally, the fact that LARD is suspicious of Kansa is a point in his favor. This game isn't personal. The fact that he suspects me for the actions of my predecessor makes sense. He also is not distorting anything since his case against me consists of a valid complaint about luckiness (which I am attempting to refute by my actions).

What do you think of Deathsword? He and Scripten have arguably been as lurky as Kansa.

---

Deathsword: Null to slightly scummy.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Scripten was a little active at the beginning. Since then, both he and deathsword have been mostly inactive with deathsword posting:

Quote from: Deathsword on May 27, 2014, 04:20:09 pm

Well, damn. I replaced in for Scripten (No idea why MOWE hasn't changed the OP or said it here, but I got the role PM), but it's sad to see so many leave at once. I'll give the thread a read and post my views, shouldn't take too long.

Quote from: Deathsword on May 28, 2014, 03:40:05 pm

Quote from: Tiruin on May 28, 2014, 02:02:22 pm

scripten/Deathsword: Y'need to post more buddy. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=138613.msg5316834#msg5316834)

I ate something yesterday that... well, let's just say the result wasn't exactly good.

Quote from: Tiruin on May 28, 2014, 02:02:22 pm

On that note, hope everything is OK in South America!

World Cup still a few weeks away, which is when the metaphorical feces will hit the fan. Still, thanks for the thought.

Quote from: tn5421 on May 27, 2014, 06:08:17 pm

Because I don't really care about this game's outcome, borno.

Might I ask why?

Well, from the looks of it this game has been going kind of slowly. Some questions so I can get some reads on players:

Borno: How much do you think you've learned about the game since those BMs so many(two, I think) years ago? What are your reads on the ICs?

Cado: How scummy do you consider buddying to be, seeing as there were accusations you were involved in the act?

PPE:

Quote from: TheDarkStar on May 28, 2014, 03:17:16 pm

borno: Active, but tunneling. Slight scum lean. If scum, then RangerCado is probably also scum.
tn5421: Slight scum lean due to odd behavior, but (as Jack says) that could be unrelated to scumminess. If scum, then Jack A T is probably also scum.
RangerCado: Slight scum lean. Possibly borno's scumbuddy if borno is scum.
Jack A T: Slight scum lean due to waving away problems with tn5421's argument. Probably tn5421's scumbuddy if tn5421 is scum

Could you also elaborate on why you basically created two possible scumteams there? (bolded relevant parts). Why would the scum team be, say, borno and Cado instead of borno and Jack?

Quote from: Deathsword on June 04, 2014, 04:46:18 pm

Sorry for dropping like that, but I had internet problems due to a damaged cable as well as tests. That's all done though.

Quote from: RangerCado on May 29, 2014, 09:30:29 am

Whats your take on buddying, if I may ask as well?

It depends a lot on meta. For instance, Tiruin buddying is null, since she tends to do that regardless of alignment. If I don't know someone's meta, or if their meta goes against buddying, then I'd question them.

I didn't suspect borno or tn (although I found tn's resignation from defending himself odd) so the only thing that changed is that I find TDS somewhat scummier.

More comming, I have to go now.

Quote from: Deathsword on June 09, 2014, 05:24:21 pm

Extend

Just got an internship and am quite tired. I'll try to post later after resting a bit.

I am assuming that Deathsword's statements about RL are completely true. Still, inactivity benefits the mafia.

---

Jack A T: There's a lot of content to go through. The fact that Jack A T is an IC makes it harder for me. Null read.

Quote from: Jack A T on June 05, 2014, 06:56:13 pm

Quote from: LARD on June 04, 2014, 06:02:02 pm

If that is not an option, then at least answer this: What possible motives are there for killing tn5421 other than avoiding being blocked?

A few posts back, in a spoiler addressed to TheDarkStar (spoilers being a useful way to organize posts.  Do read spoilers not addressed to you.  It's worthwhile.), I listed a few of the many, many possibilities.

I'm having trouble finding the spoiler addressed to TheDarkStar you mention. Would you mind linking to it or giving me the reference number?

---

I need to take a break. I'll EBWOP my read of RangerCado later tonight.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day Two
Post by: PTDfun on June 09, 2014, 05:53:02 pm

EBWOP: lurkiness* (stupid spelling)

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day Two
Post by: TheDarkStar on June 09, 2014, 08:58:10 pm

Quote from: PTDfun on June 09, 2014, 05:50:55 pm

This question still needs answering. If TheDarkStar doesn't want to answer, then I'll refer it to his replacement.
TheDarkStar and Tiruin:

Quote from: PTDfun on June 07, 2014, 02:21:38 am

What do you think the best way to play mafia (as in scum roles) is?

I know it's a bit open ended. Answer however you would like. I am asking about strategy. Assuming you are town, it will be helpful for scum hunting. Assuming you are scum, it may also be helpful for scum hunting.

---

TheDarkStar:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Quote from: TheDarkStar on June 09, 2014, 01:31:08 pm

-snip-

Evidence:
Reply 189 was a request to reread thread to get a good understanding of what is going on. (sounds great)
Reply 195 gave initial reads.
Reply 239 gave updated reads and questions.
Reply 246 is defensive. Long defense, little offense. The only questions are in the snipped quote below.

Quote from: TheDarkStar on June 04, 2014, 01:10:50 pm

Why do you suddenly think I am scum now?
2. borno is new too, right?
4. Why do you think borno wasn't voting for tn because he thought tn was scum?
6. Updated read list?
Why are you voting someone who seems unsure who to vote for?

Reply 258 is defense.
Reply 261 is offense.
Reply 271 is defense against me.
So, out of the four posts (there were other posts, but they didn't contribute anything to the game) that followed your reads, three were defensive (or 2.5, if I'm going to be generous).

Quote from: TheDarkStar on June 09, 2014, 01:31:08 pm

Yes, Fniff was inactive. That's why he requested replacement - he didn't think he could spend enough time playing this.

Yup. I'm keeping that in mind. It's still a point against.

Quote from: TheDarkStar on June 09, 2014, 01:31:08 pm

PTDFun: Why didn't you vote for me? Also, Kansa was even less active than me. Why do you think that Fniff's inaction is more significant than Kansa's inaction?

I didn't vote for you because
(a) I am still trying to figure out how this game works. From my previous reading of the thread it seems that FOS is the way to communicate a threat to another player to extract information without the risk entailed of voting for them.
(b) I am not convinced enough to want to kill you yet.
(c)

Quote from: Jack A T on May 28, 2014, 09:14:15 pm

LARD:
1. RVS has been over for a while now.

I cannot vote for Kansa, now can I? It would be absurd to self-vote whether I am mafia or townie. Fniff's inaction is more significant to me because I know Kansa's role and I don't know Fniff's. Both had an excuse of being busy. I still hold it as a point against you in the same way that LARD holds it against me.

Finally,

Quote from: TheDarkStar on May 28, 2014, 03:17:16 pm

I'll detail the reasons for why I think Jack A T and RangerCado are scum later, but at least one if not two of the scum are in the list of tn5421, borno, Jack A T, and RangerCado.

Reply 231 opted out of giving the reads above.

Quote from: TheDarkStar on June 02, 2014, 10:22:14 pm

My ideas about who the scum are are semi-irrelevant now in light of who has died, although Ranger and Jack are not off my suspicion list. Also, due to voting a guy who flipped townie, LARD is also on my suspicion list until I got through posts in detail.

I would like to know why you thought Jack A T and RangerCado are scum prior to the nightfall.

[/quote]

1. The best way to play Mafia is exactly like town in the day, except for those times when you push someone towards lynching who is innocent. During the night, try to kill those people who either have dangerous power roles or who are good players. Sometimes it makes sense to kill people who suspect you; sometimes it doesn't. It all depends on what people will be left.

2. You have an odd way to count. Why do you call my main question post something other than offensive? If you include that important one (especially what I ask the people I suspect), I have about as many offensive posts as defensive ones. Also, it doesn't have to end in a question mark to demand a response. Why did you make it seem like I was being much more defensive than I was?

3. People tend not to have too much control over some things in RL - if he doesn't have time, he doesn't have time. Why do you see this as scummy?

4. It doesn't matter if someone else is using that logic - if it's a bad argument, it's a bad argument. At this point, your argument against me is that I'm defensive - but that isn't all that true, despite the way that you are portraying things.

5. I did not think Jack A T and RangerCado were scum; I thought they (along with others) were scummy. It wasn't as much specific things as the general feel I got from reading things; my results from reading things in detail are already posted. I've said this several times; why do you ask me again?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day Two
Post by: Silthuri on June 09, 2014, 09:36:29 pm

Votecount:

• LARD:
• TheDarkStar: Jack A T (1)
• Deathsword:
• RangerCado: TheDarkStar (1)
• PTDfun: LARD (1)
• Jack A T:
• Tiruin:

Not voting: PTDfun, Deathsword, RangerCado, Tiruin

Day two has been extended and will end Wednesday at 10 pm EST.

There are no more extends available today.

TheDarkStar has requested replacement!

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day Two
Post by: PTDfun on June 10, 2014, 03:23:52 am

Final read.
RangerCado: Town lean.
He has been consistently inquisitive to other players while being scattershot in their topics. The former gives credibility that he is actually trying to figure things out. The latter gives credibility that he has no prior agenda.

Jack A T and RangerCado:

Quote from: Jack A T on June 03, 2014, 06:58:10 pm

*RangerCado: Part of both major lynch pushes in day 1.  After initially FoSing tn5421 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=138613.msg5299232#msg5299232) for vague reasons largely relating to tn's poor playstyle, what finally got RangerCado to vote for him was tn's breakdown (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=138613.msg5301739#msg5301739) and decision to let himself die.  Of all of tn's attackers, Cado had the least reason to attack.  However, RangerCado withdrew (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=138613.msg5307028#msg5307028) soon after I did, for much the same reason that I did.

RangerCado then started the main push against borno.  The focus was on borno's failure to do much beyond attacking tn5421.  Borno didn't do much to get rid of that.

Overall: slight scum lean, primarily gut-based.  I await that more substantial post he's promised.

I read what follows this in the thread, but I couldn't see if this ^ actually got resolved, is currently being resolved, or has been passed over. I'm also interested in the more substantial post (which may already be written somewhere). Thanks for understanding that I'm trying.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day Two
Post by: LARD on June 10, 2014, 09:20:48 am

Hey PTDfun, nice to see you here.
Alright, in a side note Jack about this

Quote from: Jack A T on June 08, 2014, 11:42:17 pm

LARD: If you had just replaced in, and had only read early posts in the thread, do you think you would be able or willing to post anything long and detailed about the game?

It was simply a pressure vote to get the game moving and to get you (PTDfun) more invested in the game.  Now that you are here, I have a whole new list of questions.

Why did you ask that question about the best way to play scum?  Was the scum IC not responding in mafia chat?:P  Seriously, it just seems like you're asking how you should play scum.  As I said though, it's not a bad piece of evidence against you because if you were scum, you would just ask talk in scumchat.

Could you state your reasons for accusing TDS that haven't been said by the other players, or more specifically, Jack?

When you give your reads, the one you are least suspicious of, it seems, is me. Now to me that seems like you are buddying me. You're just making yourself seem more suspicious.

However, earlier I was suspicious of TDS, and if we reach day end with a tie, then I would not be adverse to changing my vote to him to avoid it. I want to hear what PTD has to say about this yet.

As for reads on Deathsword, I just don't have one. He's not active enough. I couldn't say one way or the other.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day Two
Post by: Jack A T on June 10, 2014, 01:12:18 pm

Quote from: PTDfun on June 09, 2014, 05:50:55 pm

Quote from: Jack A T on June 05, 2014, 06:56:13 pm

A few posts back, in a spoiler addressed to TheDarkStar (spoilers being a useful way to organize posts.  Do read spoilers not addressed to you.  It's worthwhile.), I listed a few of the many, many possibilities.

I'm having trouble finding the spoiler addressed to TheDarkStar you mention. Would you mind linking to it or giving me the reference number?

PTDfun: The list I referred to is the quote immediately after the material you quoted.  Clicking on the timestamp for that quote would lead you to the post (link here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=138613.msg5339805#msg5339805)) the quote was from.

Quote from: PTDfun on June 10, 2014, 03:23:52 am

I read what follows this in the thread, but I couldn't see if this ^ actually got resolved, is currently being resolved, or has been passed over. I'm also interested in the more substantial post (which may already be written somewhere). Thanks for understanding that I'm trying.

The substantial post Cado promised was this. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=138613.msg5339267#msg5339267)  In addition, my read of Cado has changed little: still slightly off, primarily gut.

Questions:
*I noticed in your reads (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=138613.msg5357922#msg5357922) that you say you like several of LARD's posts.  It doesn't help much to just say you like certain posts.  Why do you like the ones you like?
*You seem comfortable using Fniff's low activity against TheDarkStar.  Considering Fniff quit due to finding the game too advanced (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=138613.msg5314747#msg5314747) for him, is Fniff's inactivity worth all that much against TheDarkStar?

TheDarkStar: Sad to see you have to leave.  While you're still here, and still posting, and still responding to attacks and questions (with a certain consistent notable omission), would you be so kind to respond to mine and the associated questions (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=138613.msg5351532#msg5351532), including the important questions from the start of the day about your current vote?

Quote from: LARD on June 10, 2014, 09:20:48 am

When you give your reads, the one you are least suspicious of, it seems, is me. Now to me that seems like you are buddying me. You're just making yourself seem more suspicious.

LARD: Can you give more detail here?  What makes it come off as buddying?

Regarding Fniff and his replacement request: Fniff replaced not due to real life/lacking time to play, but due to finding the game too advanced (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=138613.msg5314747#msg5314747).

---

MyOwnWorstEnemy: When we need a replacement, please indicate that in the thread title.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day Two
Post by: Jack A T on June 10, 2014, 01:14:52 pm

Oh, and MyOwnWorstEnemy: Please warn RangerCado.

RangerCado: You've been gone for quite some time now.  When you get back, please give your opinions of each of the cases advanced today.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day Two
Post by: LARD on June 10, 2014, 05:37:39 pm

Quote from: PTDfun on June 09, 2014, 05:50:55 pm

LARD: Town leaning.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I like his statements here:

Quote from: LARD on May 29, 2014, 09:47:43 am

My point was that I like to have unbalancing forces in the game, such as an edgy player like tn5421.

Quote from: LARD on May 29, 2014, 11:53:19 pm

tn5421 seems to me like a rather twitchy player, possibly indicating scum, but more likely indicating unfamiliarity with this forum's playstyle. In any case, he will be useful to stir things up and get reactions, just like I was in my first game.
Sorry, no time to respond further.

Quote from: PTDfun on June 07, 2014, 02:21:38 am

I am surprised tn5421 was killed by mafia. His use of misdirection and lack of asking questions in those posts made him look scummy. Mafia should have kept him alive as a decoy. (I'll come back to this when I finish catching up)

I think that his two statements answer my question about tn5421. DarkPaladin was lurky, but I think that LARD has mostly redeemed that. I like his points about Jack A T seeming a little suspicious:

Quote from: LARD on May 28, 2014, 07:20:31 pm

Jack: seems to be almost running the show, or maybe that's just because you're the most active IC.

Quote from: LARD on May 28, 2014, 07:20:31 pm

Jack: You seem to be spending a large amount of your time commenting on other peoples questions. This makes it seem like you are pushing attention to other people's problems.  I guess you never want to attract too much attention to yourself, but it does seem like you are pushing random people without any order.

Finally, the fact that LARD is suspicious of Kansa is a point in his favor. This game isn't personal. The fact that he suspects me for the actions of my predecessor makes sense. He also is not distorting anything since his case against me consists of a valid complaint about luckiness (which I am attempting to refute by my actions).

He doesn't elaborate any more than to say that he likes my points.  While I like that somebody appreciates my points, if that somebody is mafia it changes things a bit.  I feel like he is just trying to make me like him.  And I do, but I still think he's probably mafia.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day Two
Post by: Tiruin on June 10, 2014, 07:39:55 pm

Continued (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=138613.msg5319529#msg5319529)

Sorry for the wait :-[

Quote from: PTDfun on June 09, 2014, 05:50:55 pm

Tiruin: I am sorry that you have been sick and depressed, and that RL has been a pain in your butt the past few weeks. (To be clear, I am being entirely genuine.) With that said, you might want to get a replacement rather than trying to juggle this game (a lesser obligation) with things in RL that have consequences. I'm new, so I don't know how that works for an IC, but it's worth considering and completely acceptable.

I'm not aiming for a replacement because...I know I can do this--the game has enough replacements queued already (though they are technically still playing, only until they are confirmed replaced).

---

---

Borno is lynched and pops up Town. Tn is then killed.
While it is conventional wisdom to not deliberate on an NK of this matter--it is useful to think about and ponder why, though. Tracing how the now-cleared suspects interacted and their value to people would give a hint as to what the cause for murder was, though it would be not good to dwell on it too much.

Now if any of them were scum, however, then value could be given more to their words--scum either wish to isolate themselves from their partners, or they work together with their partners and provide a vague yet apparent smokescreen now that the cover is up. The tip on these situations is to see the minute details instead of what general tips I'm giving right now and work from there.

Quote from: TheDarkStar on June 02, 2014, 10:22:14 pm

That was... unexpected.

Point like this.
Why is it unexpected TDS? What did you think of them?

Quote from: TheDarkStar on June 03, 2014, 08:01:23 pm

Tiruin:
What do you think of yesterday's events? What do you vote now? What are your reads?

Currently I'd...honestly abstain from voting at the moment. Really bad stuffs as of late and morale is at an all time low that I haven't focused much here, so rather I'd look back on my notes and check--who seems too be aggressive in such a way that it doesn't need aggression? Maybe that person is pushing for a slip all too eagerly? Who seems to be using brevity in such a way that there is too general a viewpoint on them to glean any pertinent information? Maybe there either is something with how their viewpoint is, or they're using a logical smokescreen.

As of yesterday's event at the time of this question--my reads still stay the same (tn [deceased] had a null read, yet I was a bit curious about how he saw things. There was that tinge of self-centric focus, but he was also contemplative in countering borno. Cado has a null-towny read given how he words his posts, choosing more to be sincerely altruistic and transparent [given the context of such posts] rather than hide or be secretive. Unsure on Kansa given lack of read into her (his?) posts. But I am very ashamed I couldn't do anything about her (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=138613.msg5341036#msg5341036) or...help her at all. Jack is null/towny given the amount of context he's giving, and that he's carrying the IC team and I'm dead weight >_>. Tiruin would be saying Tiruin is town but the silly thing is, it's the same thing she's say if she was scum, in most general situations. So my read on myself should best be discerned by you peoples. :v)

---

LARD

Quote from: LARD on June 03, 2014, 09:25:23 pm

Tiruin: Same as Jack but vice versa.  Also moderate town. But I can't read experienced players very well. I would like to see her opinions on Jack.

What's holding you back from reading experience? Any details on that?

Quote from: LARD on June 04, 2014, 06:02:02 pm

Jack and Tiruin As the IC's I would like to see you two go head to head because it would be instructive and interesting. If one of you is scum then I would like to know sooner rather than later because later you will be rallying the town to attack itself because that's what good scum does.

If that is not an option, then at least answer this: What possible motives are there for killing tn5421 other than avoiding being blocked?

Ok? So let's say I'm scum--what can you infer from my words since before?
Note: Nobody would declaim themselves directly as scum--while it may be done in jest, its...more of cheap play. >.> Hard to descrbe.
Query on the orange part: Yes that's what good scum does, so take in my first sentence here--what if one of us was scum? What would you--or possibly the rest of you who aren't ICs, do?

Also possible motives? I have no idea where you got that notion of avoiding being blocked (where did you get that idea?) but possibly to narrow down...townies. :v
I have no idea, sincerely. If I was scum, I'd delegate my choice to my partner (though obviously giving my opinion on the matter) but let them choose--because it would be teaching them how to make a decision. Like that ol' adage of teaching a man how to fish as opposed to giving them fish only.

---

Quote from: MyOwnWorstEnemy on June 05, 2014, 08:56:51 am

MOWE is bad mod... :(

MOWE is good mod D:<
Tiruin is bad mod! She can't even get her last BM flavor up because worries! >_<
MOWE is good mod :<

---

PTDfun

Quote from: PTDfun on June 07, 2014, 02:21:38 am

TheDarkStar and Tiruin: What do you think the best way to play mafia (as in scum roles) is?

Do not rely on the role and instead define the role by your own playstyle and your own scumhunting. The role is like a crutch or a support to your goal, but it does not define how you play. (unless you're a jester, but that ain't mafia :v)
Like a poisoner--you hit a guy at night, they die next...time tmorrow after day but before night. So you plan in advance who to pick, and 'scumhunt' on the others that aren't your target--usually said target is the one you'd choose as a 'safecard' or someone you don't necessarily suspect but isn't Mafia so you won't kill your own people. :v

Quote from: PTDfun on June 08, 2014, 11:12:28 pm

Tiruin: I know that RL keeps getting in the way, but I also think you are slightly on the scummy side. Difficulties in RL serve as legitimate grounds for lurking (which benefit the mafia). You have managed to make a few posts, but I did not find them to contribute much.

Valid, though it is wrong.
Assuming someone would use RL as a scapegoat is a...universal NO. in Mafia. It is disgust on the player, the principle, the role and the spirit of the game.

The normal (and yet unspoken) rule regarding people asking for a replacement is: Assume it is for legitimate reasons despite ANYTHING the player acts in game (even if said player is an immature jerk, leave it be...at least they have the...dignity to ask for a replacement).
If the player states RL as the reason--then it should be assumed that RL is giving heck for delaying in playing a game. However, notes of concern should also be posted so in such a case that RL is too much--the player would still know people care [like in this game :-[]

I'd ask what exactly isn't it contributing? Yes, I agree that it isn't in some ways, but what.../isn't\?
On that note: No, an IC or a player [IC is just a tag for me :v] will not use RL as grounds for lurking--that's just scummy, in out-of-mafia context of the word.
HOWEVER, lurking in the case of posting everywhere else? That is legitimate grounds for suspicion--howeve,r should be followed up by a query at first, if ever the case happens.

---

---

Will try geting a post up before Thursday end. I can make it.
...What is EST in regard to GMT?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day Two
Post by: Jack A T on June 10, 2014, 07:45:26 pm

Quick post:
Tiruin: Good to see you here again.

EST is the default forum time zone: GMT-5.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day Two
Post by: Tiruin on June 10, 2014, 07:47:20 pm

So MOWE lives in a timezone which is 13 hours behind me o-o
That works! I've ~1 day left!

...Ohgods I'm a horrible IC >_>

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day Two
Post by: Jack A T on June 10, 2014, 07:54:16 pm

Tiruin: When you've been able to post, you've been fine.  Nobody can perfectly predict what impact RL will have on their play.

Kansa's male.  I asked.

A few questions:
*I notice that when you started giving your reads, TDS had not yet posted and your null-town read on him was based purely on Fniff.  What has TDS done that has kept that read as it was?
*How about with LARD (formerly Darkpaladin), who had not yet replaced in when you started giving reads?
*Can you give examples of Cado's transparency?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day Two
Post by: LARD on June 10, 2014, 08:57:44 pm

Quote from: Tiruin on June 10, 2014, 07:39:55 pm

LARD

Quote from: LARD on June 03, 2014, 09:25:23 pm

Tiruin: Same as Jack but vice versa.  Also moderate town. But I can't read experienced players very well. I would like to see her opinions on Jack.

What's holding you back from reading experience? Any details on that?

Quote from: LARD on June 04, 2014, 06:02:02 pm

Jack and Tiruin As the IC's I would like to see you two go head to head because it would be instructive and interesting. If one of you is scum then I would like to know sooner rather than later because later you will be rallying the town to attack itself because that's what good scum does.

If that is not an option, then at least answer this: What possible motives are there for killing tn5421 other than avoiding being blocked?

Ok? So let's say I'm scum--what can you infer from my words since before?
Note: Nobody would declaim themselves directly as scum--while it may be done in jest, its...more of cheap play. >.> Hard to descrbe.
Query on the orange part: Yes that's what good scum does, so take in my first sentence here--what if one of us was scum? What would you--or possibly the rest of you who aren't ICs, do?

Also possible motives? I have no idea where you got that notion of avoiding being blocked (where did you get that idea?) but possibly to narrow down...townies. :v
I have no idea, sincerely. If I was scum, I'd delegate my choice to my partner (though obviously giving my opinion on the matter) but let them choose--because it would be teaching them how to make a decision. Like that ol' adage of teaching a man how to fish as opposed to giving them fish only.

Oh hi Tiruin, I wish you all the best.  In response to your queries. . .

1. I don't read experienced players very well right now because I still feel like a newb. I feel that anything I throw at Jack by way of scumhunting he will just deftly throw right back.  The only other game I've read with him in it was Kingmaker IV and that was hardly a normal game. You and he just seem to be playing a standard game, scum-hunting normally. But I worry that one of you is mafia and I want to get clues about that.  That's why I asked you to interrogate him, so I could watch the sparks fly (hopefully).

2. I can't infer much from your previous posts, other than a few jokes and trying to teach things. Your assessments are detailed and your rationale strong, but since you haven't got yourself into any scrapes with other players because of RL stuff, I don't have a strong read on you.  I don't learn all that much from lists of reads, but from arguments between players, another reason that I want you and Jack to have discussions. 

3. What would I do if one of you were scum?  I'm doing it right now.  I am trying to get you two to interrogate each other so we can get dirt on one of you, if you are scum.  If you refused to do that, I would have to resort to interrogating you myself, something I was hoping to avoid as it would likely only make me look foolish.  I will probably have to start soon.


In the meantime, I would like everybody to consider my case against PTDfun.
1. Kansa's dithering and not making a call, waiting until something would happen that he could bandwagon on.
2. Buddying me.
3. Targeting TDS.  Because of Jack's case on TDS, he is arguably the easiest target.

This isn't a terribly strong case, but it is the one I feel best about.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day Two - Replacement Needed!!!
Post by: Silthuri on June 10, 2014, 11:41:57 pm

Votecount:

• LARD:
• TheDarkStar: Jack A T (1)
• Deathsword:
• RangerCado: TheDarkStar (1)
• PTDfun: LARD (1)
• Jack A T:
• Tiruin:

Not voting: PTDfun, Deathsword, RangerCado, Tiruin

Day two will end tomorrow at 10 pm EST.

There are no more extends available today.

TheDarkStar has requested replacement!

RangerCado has been prodded.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day Two - Replacement Needed!!!
Post by: Silthuri on June 10, 2014, 11:45:11 pm

RangerCado has also requested replacement.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day Two - Two Replacements Needed!!!
Post by: Jack A T on June 10, 2014, 11:53:23 pm

Well, fuck.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day Two - Two Replacements Needed!!!
Post by: LARD on June 11, 2014, 09:27:28 am

My sentiments exactly

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day Two - Two Replacements Needed!!!
Post by: 4maskwolf on June 11, 2014, 09:42:38 am

I OFFER MYSELF AS TRIBUTE! BY WHICH I MEAN A REPLACEMENT.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day Two - Two Replacements Needed!!!
Post by: LARD on June 11, 2014, 11:03:15 am

YES! I get to play with 4mask again! Hi there!

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day Two - Two Replacements Needed!!!
Post by: Silthuri on June 11, 2014, 01:25:29 pm

4maskwolf has replaced TheDarkStar!

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day Two - Replacement Needed!!!
Post by: PTDfun on June 11, 2014, 02:54:03 pm

TheDarkStar is gone. I am torn between the fact that he can no longer defend himself and the fact that the town would benefit from me responding nonetheless. So I respond:

Quote from: TheDarkStar on June 09, 2014, 08:58:10 pm

You have an odd way to count. Why do you call my main question post something other than offensive? If you include that important one (especially what I ask the people I suspect), I have about as many offensive posts as defensive ones. Also, it doesn't have to end in a question mark to demand a response. Why did you make it seem like I was being much more defensive than I was?

I don't believe that I am counting his posts in a weird way, but if someone wants to correct me, then I am open to it. Does anybody know which post he means when he says "my main question post"? I grant that a statement doesn't have to end in a question mark to demand response, but in his words:

Quote from: TheDarkStar on June 09, 2014, 01:31:08 pm

You can say whatever you want, but it is useless unless you include evidence.

I am not deliberately misrepresenting him, and I am trying to be true to the way I currently see it. I am not trying to make him seem more defensive than he was. I saw his actions as defensive.

Quote from: TheDarkStar on June 09, 2014, 08:58:10 pm

I did not think Jack A T and RangerCado were scum; I thought they (along with others) were scummy. It wasn't as much specific things as the general feel I got from reading things; my results from reading things in detail are already posted. I've said this several times; why do you ask me again?

My mistake. I should have typed 'scummy' (adjective) instead of 'scum' (noun). But despite the flaw in the grammar of my post, I asked again because I wanted his prior reason, not the one in the posted reads. I have now been answered by:

Quote from: TheDarkStar on June 09, 2014, 08:58:10 pm

It wasn't as much specific things as the general feel I got from reading things

---

---

Tiruin:

Quote from: TheDarkStar on June 09, 2014, 08:58:10 pm

People tend not to have too much control over some things in RL - if he doesn't have time, he doesn't have time. Why do you see this as scummy?

Quote from: Tiruin on June 10, 2014, 07:39:55 pm

Quote from: PTDfun on June 08, 2014, 11:12:28 pm

Tiruin: I know that RL keeps getting in the way, but I also think you are slightly on the scummy side. Difficulties in RL serve as legitimate grounds for lurking (which benefit the mafia). You have managed to make a few posts, but I did not find them to contribute much.

Valid, though it is wrong.
Assuming someone would use RL as a scapegoat is a...universal NO. in Mafia. It is disgust on the player, the principle, the role and the spirit of the game.

The normal (and yet unspoken) rule regarding people asking for a replacement is: Assume it is for legitimate reasons despite ANYTHING the player acts in game (even if said player is an immature jerk, leave it be...at least they have the...dignity to ask for a replacement).
If the player states RL as the reason--then it should be assumed that RL is giving heck for delaying in playing a game. However, notes of concern should also be posted so in such a case that RL is too much--the player would still know people care [like in this game :-[]

I'd ask what exactly isn't it contributing? Yes, I agree that it isn't in some ways, but what.../isn't\?
On that note: No, an IC or a player [IC is just a tag for me :v] will not use RL as grounds for lurking--that's just scummy, in out-of-mafia context of the word.
HOWEVER, lurking in the case of posting everywhere else? That is legitimate grounds for suspicion--howeve,r should be followed up by a query at first, if ever the case happens.

I am sorry for my mistake. I will take all further remarks concerning RL in good faith. This is my first game of mafia in text format. I am trying to learn. Thank you for correcting me for my crass behavior.

When you say "lurking in the case of posting everywhere else?" are you saying that it is a legitimate grounds for suspicion when a player is posting elsewhere (often) on Bay 12 and yet not posting in this game?

---

---

LARD:

Quote from: LARD on June 10, 2014, 09:20:48 am

Why did you ask that question about the best way to play scum?  Was the scum IC not responding in mafia chat?:P  Seriously, it just seems like you're asking how you should play scum.  As I said though, it's not a bad piece of evidence against you because if you were scum, you would just ask talk in scumchat.

1. I asked that question about the best way to play scum to Tiruin and TheDarkStar because I suspected them.
2. I asked that question because I thought that Tiruin's experience might give me a good explanation on what mafia are trying to do during the day (to help me scum hunt).
3. I asked that question because I thought that TheDarkStar had a small chance of slipping up in answering it (if he were mafia).
4. I asked a question because I just joined a game and my nooblet eyes read earlier in this game that being proactive about asking questions gives you data to work with. That even if I don't know how to analyze it, it's still content that wasn't there before, and thus will help town.

---

Quote from: LARD on June 10, 2014, 09:20:48 am

Could you state your reasons for accusing TDS that haven't been said by the other players, or more specifically, Jack?

Jack A T's reasons were
1.

Quote from: Jack A T on June 03, 2014, 06:58:10 pm

TheDarkStar appears to be trying to give the impression of being here, but without actually saying anything of substance

2.

Quote from: Jack A T on June 03, 2014, 06:58:10 pm

His first post (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=138613.msg5319717#msg5319717), as read lists go, is strange.  He declared that he suspected every single consistently active player in the game, each for vague reasons (except RangerCado, who didn't even get a reason), and he declared that at least one of the scum was probably among that half of the players.

3.

Quote from: Jack A T on June 03, 2014, 06:58:10 pm

No vote was made.

4.

Quote from: Jack A T on June 03, 2014, 06:58:10 pm

So, there we got TheDarkStar taking little in the way of a position.

5.

Quote from: Jack A T on June 03, 2014, 06:58:10 pm

He did, at least, say he would give more reasons later.

That never happened.  Two days later, about 3 hours before the end of the day and with numerous questions to answer, he posted (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=138613.msg5326034#msg5326034) that he'd taken too long to get detailed reasons together and that he decided to wait for the lynch results.  Still no solid position taken, and no questions answered.

My reason is that I see his actions as primarily defensive as detailed in the spoiler on post 274. As opposed to Jack A T's remark #1, I think that TheDarkStar's posts have been substantial, but primarily about his own neck.

---

Quote from: LARD on June 10, 2014, 09:20:48 am

When you give your reads, the one you are least suspicious of, it seems, is me. Now to me that seems like you are buddying me. You're just making yourself seem more suspicious.

I listed both you and RangerCado as town leaning. I didn't specify degrees. The quotes in the spoiler of my read of you are all pro-town. I don't care if you like me or not. I want to win. You are inquisitive. That helps town. Your directing attention at Jack A T also helps town. As I put in my reads, I'm having trouble reading him. I'm blanking out on what to even ask him about. Your efforts are helping me read him. That makes you look more townish.

---

(more coming)

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day Two - Replacement Needed!!!
Post by: PTDfun on June 11, 2014, 03:26:58 pm

EBWOP
Vote 4maskwolf

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day Two - Replacement Needed!!!
Post by: 4maskwolf on June 11, 2014, 03:27:58 pm

Are there any outstanding questions leveled at me?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day Two - Replacement Needed!!!
Post by: Jack A T on June 11, 2014, 03:48:19 pm

PTDfun: You do realize that my attack on TheDarkStar has changed over time, right?  I'm now focused on the bizarre behaviour regarding his vote: he either didn't care about his case enough to bother reading responses to his questions, or he deliberately refused to answer questions about his vote on RangerCado.

I await the rest of your intended content.

4maskwolf: Thoughts on the game?  Your predecessor, TheDarkStar, was under quite a bit of fire, particularly from PTDfun and I.  Questions have been directed at him for his behaviour, and have tended not to be generally applicable.

Quote from: LARD on June 10, 2014, 08:57:44 pm

In the meantime, I would like everybody to consider my case against PTDfun.
1. Kansa's dithering and not making a call, waiting until something would happen that he could bandwagon on.
2. Buddying me.
3. Targeting TDS.  Because of Jack's case on TDS, he is arguably the easiest target.

LARD: Meh.  I don't read Kansa's behaviour as waiting for a wagon, but as a nervous and clueless newbie, trying to figure out the game.  Looking at the attack you made against Kansa...

Quote from: LARD on June 03, 2014, 09:25:23 pm

Quote from: Kansa on May 30, 2014, 03:09:38 pm

To LARD: Honestly because I'm not entirely sure who is and who isn't mafia at this point, I probably should have cast a vote earlier on to add pressure to somebody but as we are really close to the end now it wouldn't do anything.
I would probably wait for them to slip up and contradict something or do something that makes them seem suspicious, I'm not really sure what questions to ask to make them slip up though. As for the actual method of that I would probably as them a question to clarify the part that contradicted something else or made them suspicious in my eyes.

This doesn't sit right for me. You just seem to be acting confused and unsure of yourself. That in itself is not a bad thing, but you use it as an excuse for not hunting or voting.  Don't worry about that, you are far more suspicious when you sit on the fence than when you start hunting and savagely tearing people apart for their smallest verbal blunders.
Oh, and waiting for mafia to slip up and contradict themselves is something that will keep you waiting for a while.  When somebody does contradict themselves, it is more often than not just an honest townie mistake.

So Kansa, You are sitting on the fence, confused and unsure, while afraid to make a move against anybody for fear of looking suspicious.  You should probably have cast your vote, it would have taken the suspicion off your head.  But you didn't. And now bad things will happen.  :P

... there isn't much.  You say a lot about him trying to avoid looking suspicious, but there isn't much I see to indicate that.  Can you explain?  The fence-sitting and confusion I think is due to his inexperience more than alignment (see me way back in Supernatural 3, for instance).

PTD's read of you was unimpressive, and he seems to be having difficulty explaining it, but he still has my questions about it to answer and says he has more post to come.  Let's see what he gives there.

The TDS targeting thing...meh.  His arguments aren't all that good (a less well made version of my original attack that I've abandoned, plus some stuff about defensiveness...), I will say.  However, there's nothing here pushing him above TDS/4mask in as a suspect for me.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day Two - Replacement Needed!!!
Post by: PTDfun on June 11, 2014, 03:49:07 pm

I'm going through the posts in chronological order for my responses. Sorry that somethings end up out of order.
Jack A T:

Quote from: Jack A T on June 10, 2014, 01:12:18 pm

*I noticed in your reads (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=138613.msg5357922#msg5357922) that you say you like several of LARD's posts.  It doesn't help much to just say you like certain posts.  Why do you like the ones you like?

I "like" the first two quotes because they answer my question about why tn5421 died (I question I posed in my second post). The disruption he caused helped the town by shaking things up - thus extracting more information. Now, LARD seems to be an aggressive player. This seems to help the town. If LARD is mafia, then his explanation would make him look more towny and thus help him. On the other hand, the information he uncovers will hurt him. If, upon rereading through LARD's posts I find that the content he is shaking up is unproductive (and aggression for aggression sake) then I would look on him with more suspicion.

I "like" his posts about you because they articulated something I noticed intuitively, but I did not have words for.

---

Quote from: Jack A T on June 10, 2014, 01:12:18 pm

*You seem comfortable using Fniff's low activity against TheDarkStar.  Considering Fniff quit due to finding the game too advanced (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=138613.msg5314747#msg5314747) for him, is Fniff's inactivity worth all that much against TheDarkStar?

As I stated in post #295, I will take statements about RL in good faith. Thus, I must rescind this point against TheDarkStar. But, as in my reads, I still think he is mafia for another reason.

---

---

Tiruin:
What is a "logical smokescreen"?

Quote from: Tiruin on June 10, 2014, 07:39:55 pm

Quote from: LARD on June 04, 2014, 06:02:02 pm

Jack and Tiruin As the IC's I would like to see you two go head to head because it would be instructive and interesting. If one of you is scum then I would like to know sooner rather than later because later you will be rallying the town to attack itself because that's what good scum does.

If that is not an option, then at least answer this: What possible motives are there for killing tn5421 other than avoiding being blocked?

Ok? So let's say I'm scum--what can you infer from my words since before?
Note: Nobody would declaim themselves directly as scum--while it may be done in jest, its...more of cheap play. >.> Hard to descrbe.
Query on the orange part: Yes that's what good scum does, so take in my first sentence here--what if one of us was scum? What would you--or possibly the rest of you who aren't ICs, do?

Also possible motives? I have no idea where you got that notion of avoiding being blocked (where did you get that idea?) but possibly to narrow down...townies. :v

What does it mean to be "blocked"?

Quote from: Tiruin on June 10, 2014, 07:39:55 pm

Like a poisoner--you hit a guy at night, they die next...time tmorrow after day but before night. So you plan in advance who to pick, and 'scumhunt' on the others that aren't your target--usually said target is the one you'd choose as a 'safecard' or someone you don't necessarily suspect but isn't Mafia so you won't kill your own people.

Would you mind elaborating on the green part? The way you word it, I can read it two ways:
1. You hit the guy at night. They die next time after tomorrow ends.
2. You hit the guy at night. They die next. Time tomorrow after day but before night.
Both of those do not make sense to me.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day Two - Replacement Needed!!!
Post by: PTDfun on June 11, 2014, 03:58:52 pm

Jack A T: I will reread through LARD's posts and try to give a better read of him. But most likely not tonight. This game is more time consuming (and HARD) than I expected.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day Two - Replacement Needed!!!
Post by: PTDfun on June 11, 2014, 04:03:54 pm

4maskwolf: Welcome to the game. What is your previous mafia experience?

I had some things against your predecessor. I understand that you might have to read the thread for a few days before you have anything. I joined last week though, so if you're curious about my complaints you don't have to go back far in the thread.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day Two - Replacement Needed!!!
Post by: 4maskwolf on June 11, 2014, 04:09:44 pm

Quote from: PTDfun on June 11, 2014, 04:03:54 pm

4maskwolf: Welcome to the game. What is your previous mafia experience?

I had some things against your predecessor. I understand that you might have to read the thread for a few days before you have anything. I joined last week though, so if you're curious about my complaints you don't have to go back far in the thread.

My previous mafia experience... somat like ten games or so... At least one win as scum, that's all I can remember (my first scum game).

Reading time, I guess.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day Two - Replacement Needed!!!
Post by: 4maskwolf on June 11, 2014, 04:26:04 pm

Oh lolz this is going to be fun.

Ask your questions, mis amigos, and I will respond.  The one thing I will note is that TDS, like myself, appears to dislike day one play and has been known, at least to me, to play little to none at all on Day One unless something catches his eyes.  Which is why, I think, he posted so little of substance on day one.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day Two - Replacement Needed!!!
Post by: Jack A T on June 11, 2014, 04:31:07 pm

Quick post: Because MOWE did not extend for the last-minute replacement, day ends today at 10 PM EST.  Nobody has days to read the thread.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day Two - Replacement Needed!!!
Post by: 4maskwolf on June 11, 2014, 04:36:04 pm

Quote from: Jack A T on June 11, 2014, 04:31:07 pm

Quick post: Because MOWE did not extend for the last-minute replacement, day ends today at 10 PM EST.  Nobody has days to read the thread.

Already read the thread, it doesn't matter.  Though if we have any extends left, extend.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day Two - Replacement Needed!!!
Post by: Silthuri on June 11, 2014, 04:41:12 pm

Quote from: Jack A T on June 11, 2014, 04:31:07 pm

Quick post: Because MOWE did not extend for the last-minute replacement, day ends today at 10 PM EST.  Nobody has days to read the thread.

Oh no! I forgot! D:

Day two has been mod extended! Day ends tomorrow at 10 PM EST!

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day Two - Replacement Needed!!!
Post by: 4maskwolf on June 11, 2014, 04:42:35 pm

Quote from: MyOwnWorstEnemy on June 11, 2014, 04:41:12 pm

Quote from: Jack A T on June 11, 2014, 04:31:07 pm

Quick post: Because MOWE did not extend for the last-minute replacement, day ends today at 10 PM EST.  Nobody has days to read the thread.

Oh no! I forgot! D:

Day two has been mod extended! Day ends tomorrow at 10 PM EST!

Don't worry MOWE, I would have forgotten it too.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day Two - Replacement Needed!!!
Post by: Jack A T on June 11, 2014, 05:02:32 pm

Alright.

4maskwolf: I'd like to see your general thoughts on the game so far, at least.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day Two - Replacement Needed!!!
Post by: 4maskwolf on June 11, 2014, 05:33:29 pm

*realizes he forgot to respond on this thread*

Sorry about the delay.

hmm...  I'm not really sure what to make of it, to be honest.  Without having been here throughout the entirety of day one, I don't have the gut feelings of the moment of each post, since I can see other posts and am looking at it from a more impassive viewpoint.  I'll get back to you when I've ferreted out a little more, I just got tired of reading halfway through.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day Two - Replacement Needed!!!
Post by: Teneb on June 11, 2014, 06:24:29 pm

Posting from phone, got no telephone line or internet other than this. Phone company appears to be antagonizing us on purpose, sorry for not giving an earlier warning.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day Two - Replacement Needed!!!
Post by: LARD on June 11, 2014, 08:12:34 pm

Quote from: 4maskwolf on June 11, 2014, 05:33:29 pm

I'm not really sure what to make of it, to be honest.  Without having been here throughout the entirety of day one, I don't have the gut feelings of the moment of each post, since I can see other posts and am looking at it from a more impassive viewpoint.  I'll get back to you when I've ferreted out a little more, I just got tired of reading halfway through.

This is suspicious because above you mentioned that you had read the whole thread already.  I get that it's hard to get a cohesive viewpoint from this, so that's okay.  It all seems to blur together, right?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day Two - Replacement Needed!!!
Post by: 4maskwolf on June 11, 2014, 08:16:42 pm

Quote from: LARD on June 11, 2014, 08:12:34 pm

Quote from: 4maskwolf on June 11, 2014, 05:33:29 pm

I'm not really sure what to make of it, to be honest.  Without having been here throughout the entirety of day one, I don't have the gut feelings of the moment of each post, since I can see other posts and am looking at it from a more impassive viewpoint.  I'll get back to you when I've ferreted out a little more, I just got tired of reading halfway through.

This is suspicious because above you mentioned that you had read the whole thread already.  I get that it's hard to get a cohesive viewpoint from this, so that's okay.  It all seems to blur together, right?

Lolwut is this another one of your traps?

No, I skimmed the whole thread.  I was trying to avoid a long, drawn out day of little activity, which is how most of these games have gone down, by avoiding the mod extend the day.  I tossed an extend request out there so that if people really wanted to keep playing, the day could go on

Mostly, I skimmed what happened today, but I need to see some more action from you all in order to make final judgments.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day Two - Replacement Needed!!!
Post by: LARD on June 11, 2014, 11:53:38 pm

It was!  I'm glad you recognized it. Excellent. Okay then. It's too bad that your predecessor was on the chopping block. I was looking forward to playing with you again.  I would like to know your opinion on PTDfun though, just to see.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day Two - Replacement Needed!!!
Post by: Jack A T on June 12, 2014, 12:01:01 am

Quote from: LARD on June 11, 2014, 11:53:38 pm

It was!  I'm glad you recognized it. Excellent. Okay then. It's too bad that your predecessor was on the chopping block. I was looking forward to playing with you again.  I would like to know your opinion on PTDfun though, just to see.

LARD: How would you have reacted to a "yes"?  How about a "no"?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day Two - Replacement Needed!!!
Post by: LARD on June 12, 2014, 09:15:28 am

It was just a joking reference to a "trap" I pulled on him last game we played together. If he had said yes, I would have accused him of using the "easy out" I provided in my post, therefore having him fall into my trap. A townie would have a legitimate reason and therefore say it and not have to use the one I provided.  It didn't really matter that much except that the last time he fell for my trap he was scum and this time he didn't. The conclusion: 4mask is safe. :D

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day Two - Replacement Needed!!!
Post by: 4maskwolf on June 12, 2014, 09:38:14 am

Quote from: LARD on June 12, 2014, 09:15:28 am

It was just a joking reference to a "trap" I pulled on him last game we played together. If he had said yes, I would have accused him of using the "easy out" I provided in my post, therefore having him fall into my trap. A townie would have a legitimate reason and therefore say it and not have to use the one I provided.  It didn't really matter that much except that the last time he fell for my trap he was scum and this time he didn't. The conclusion: 4mask is safe. :D

lolz.  Just of note, don't be so sure.  The fact that I recognized it for a trap should clue you in that even as scum I wouldn't have fallen for it.  I must say, though, when you pulled it on me in the last game that was freaking clever.  I couldn't have seen it coming in a million years.  I had to use all of my scum bsing ability to pull myself out of that rabbit hole.

I'll answer your question, I just need to read up on the guy you asked about.

By the way, when I use italics, that's my advice voice.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day Two - Replacement Needed!!!
Post by: 4maskwolf on June 12, 2014, 11:43:51 am

Hmm... I think that PTDfun is a good player, but he seems to be leaning a bit too heavily on the points made by Jack A T.  That being said, he makes an attempt to distinguish his points from Jack's here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=138613.msg5364750#msg5364750), which is a positive for him.  All in all, I'd say town, at least until I see more of him.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day Two - Replacement Needed!!!
Post by: Silthuri on June 12, 2014, 12:54:33 pm

Alright. Here's the deal everyone. My life is becoming very... turbulent to say the least. I'm probably going to move out from my home because I can't stand one more day around my father. I might not be able to give this the regular attention it needs. I'll do everything I can to be a good mod, but I'm deputizing Nerjin to do votecounts and such for me until such time things settle down.

Again, I'm really sorry everyone...

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day Two - Replacement Needed!!!
Post by: 4maskwolf on June 12, 2014, 12:55:20 pm

Quote from: MyOwnWorstEnemy on June 12, 2014, 12:54:33 pm

Alright. Here's the deal everyone. My life is becoming very... turbulent to say the least. I'm probably going to move out from my home because I can't stand one more day around my father. I might not be able to give this the regular attention it needs. I'll do everything I can to be a good mod, but I'm deputizing Nerjin to do votecounts and such for me until such time things settle down.

Again, I'm really sorry everyone...

No problem MOWE. RL come first.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day Two - Replacement Needed!!!
Post by: Tiruin on June 12, 2014, 12:57:04 pm

Quote from: MyOwnWorstEnemy on June 12, 2014, 12:54:33 pm

Alright. Here's the deal everyone. My life is becoming very... turbulent to say the least. I'm probably going to move out from my home because I can't stand one more day around my father. I might not be able to give this the regular attention it needs. I'll do everything I can to be a good mod, but I'm deputizing Nerjin to do votecounts and such for me until such time things settle down.

Again, I'm really sorry everyone...

*hugs so hard*
Your sorries will be received in full, and paid back with this note that 'hey MOWE, we care about you a lot despite the note of words here, so in these words are attached our intangible concern and love for you. Take care, and thanks for persevering.

Continue being who you are. Also nice and kind. Also modest.
You're awesome.'

PFP blargh. I can't believe I slept more than 12 hours in the previous day.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day Two - Replacement Needed!!!
Post by: 4maskwolf on June 12, 2014, 03:00:31 pm

OI!  Where is everyone?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day Two - Replacement Needed!!!
Post by: Jack A T on June 12, 2014, 03:27:32 pm

BM XLVII: where everyone needs replacements.

I wish you well in dealing with real life, MOWE.

---

4maskwolf: Any reads of anyone else?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day Two - Replacement Needed!!!
Post by: Silthuri on June 12, 2014, 07:07:14 pm

Good news! Luck decided to be on my side for once! Thank you all for your concern, but the problem turned out to do more good to me than harm. Which was kinda unexpected... Anyways... votecount!

Votecount:

• LARD:
• 4maskwolf: Jack A T, LARD (2)
• Deathsword:
• RangerCado:
• PTDfun: LARD (1)
• Jack A T:
• Tiruin:

Not voting: PTDfun, Deathsword, RangerCado, Tiruin

Day two will end today at 10 pm EST (~2 hours from now).

There are no more extends available today.

RangerCado has requested replacement.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day Two - Replacement Needed!!!
Post by: 4maskwolf on June 12, 2014, 07:16:31 pm

*Does a player count*

Alright, PTDfun.  Nothing personal, but I'd rather stay alive long enough to be useful.  This is basically day one for me.

If anyone finds this offensive, feel free to kill me off by moving the vote from a tie.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day Two - Replacement Needed!!!
Post by: Tiruin on June 12, 2014, 08:02:03 pm

...We're heading into a tie, why?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day Two - Replacement Needed!!!
Post by: Tiruin on June 12, 2014, 08:03:00 pm

Funny thing, big big post got eaten due to stoopid net dying just before I hit post. So PFP right now--it's partially saved until 8 hours from now, but bleh :/

We've got 1 hour left.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day Two - Replacement Needed!!!
Post by: 4maskwolf on June 12, 2014, 08:23:04 pm

Quote from: MyOwnWorstEnemy on June 12, 2014, 07:07:14 pm

Good news! Luck decided to be on my side for once! Thank you all for your concern, but the problem turned out to do more good to me than harm. Which was kinda unexpected... Anyways... votecount!

Votecount:

• LARD:
• 4maskwolf: Jack A T, LARD (2)
• Deathsword:
• RangerCado:
• PTDfun: LARD (1)
• Jack A T:
• Tiruin:

Not voting: PTDfun, Deathsword, RangerCado, Tiruin

Day two will end today at 10 pm EST (~2 hours from now).

There are no more extends available today.

RangerCado has requested replacement.

Also, LARD is supposedly voting for me and PTDfun.  It's PTDfun who is voting for me.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day Two - Replacement Needed!!!
Post by: Tiruin on June 12, 2014, 08:31:33 pm

LARD is only voting PTD when I see the lurkertracker

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day Two - Replacement Needed!!!
Post by: 4maskwolf on June 12, 2014, 08:32:48 pm

Quote from: Tiruin on June 12, 2014, 08:31:33 pm

LARD is only voting PTD when I see the lurkertracker

That's what I'm saying.  LARD is voting PTD and PTD is voting me.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day Two - Replacement Needed!!!
Post by: 4maskwolf on June 12, 2014, 08:45:18 pm

Quote from: Tiruin on June 12, 2014, 08:02:03 pm

...We're heading into a tie, why?

Because I'd rather not be lynched for circumstances outside of my control (the actions of my predecessor).  I'd rather sleep through the night, see what happens, then engage full attack mode the next day.

Of course, if you want to break the tie, you can vote me.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day Two - Replacement Needed!!!
Post by: Tiruin on June 12, 2014, 08:57:01 pm

...PTDfun. More on solidifying this than not.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day Two - Replacement Needed!!!
Post by: 4maskwolf on June 12, 2014, 09:03:07 pm

unvote...
wait, we're past time, aren't we...
damn it...

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day Two - Replacement Needed!!!
Post by: Teneb on June 12, 2014, 09:51:34 pm

Replacement Request. I hate to do this, especially for a BM, but a lot of stuff has happened and I can't dedicate the attention I wanted to this. I'm sorry.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day Two - Replacement Needed!!!
Post by: PTDfun on June 12, 2014, 10:05:34 pm

Quote from: PTDfun on June 11, 2014, 03:26:58 pm

EBWOP
Vote 4maskwolf

Quote from: MyOwnWorstEnemy on June 12, 2014, 07:07:14 pm

Good news! Luck decided to be on my side for once! Thank you all for your concern, but the problem turned out to do more good to me than harm. Which was kinda unexpected... Anyways... votecount!

Votecount:

• LARD:
• 4maskwolf: Jack A T, LARD (2)
• Deathsword:
• RangerCado:
• PTDfun: LARD (1)
• Jack A T:
• Tiruin:

Not voting: PTDfun, Deathsword, RangerCado, Tiruin

Day two will end today at 10 pm EST (~2 hours from now).

There are no more extends available today.

RangerCado has requested replacement.

I think you have a typo on the vote count.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day Two - Replacement Needed!!!
Post by: Silthuri on June 12, 2014, 10:19:27 pm

Flavor goes here, but MOWE is too tired to think up anything remotely like flavor... :(

Votecount:

• LARD:
• 4maskwolf: Jack A T, PTDfun (2)
• Deathsword:
• RangerCado:
• PTDfun: LARD, Tiruin, 4maskwolf (3)
• Jack A T:
• Tiruin:

Not voting: Deathsword, RangerCado

Day two has ended!

PTDfun has been lynched! He was a Vanilla Townie!!!

Night two has begun and will end tomorrow at 11 pm EST

---

---

I accidentally typed LARD instead of PTDfun for some reason... my brain is mush at present. Sorry for the confusion... I double checked this one though...

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day Three - Replacements needed!
Post by: Silthuri on June 14, 2014, 05:28:04 pm

The vampires emerged from their respective cells only to find Jack staked through the heart. The vampires now knew that they couldn't afford to spill any more innocent blood. Any more mistakes would cost them everything. The urgent debate began once more.

Jack A T was killed in the night! He was a vanilla townie!

Votecount:

• LARD:
• 4maskwolf:
• Deathsword:
• RangerCado:
• Tiruin:

Not Voting: Everyone

RangerCado and Deathsword have requested replacement!

The game has entered LYLO! The day will end when the majority vote to end the day or votes don't change for 24 hours!

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day Two - Replacements needed!
Post by: 4maskwolf on June 14, 2014, 06:39:19 pm

MOWE, it's LYLO and PTDfun is dead.

TIRUIN!!!!!!!!

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day Two - Replacements needed!
Post by: Tiruin on June 14, 2014, 07:03:25 pm

Quote from: 4maskwolf on June 14, 2014, 06:39:19 pm

MOWE, it's LYLO and PTDfun is dead.

TIRUIN!!!!!!!!

PFP: Count again. It's MYLO. :V

4mask

Quote from: 4maskwolf on June 12, 2014, 09:03:07 pm

unvote...
wait, we're past time, aren't we...
damn it...

Explain.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day Two - Replacements needed!
Post by: 4maskwolf on June 14, 2014, 07:06:46 pm

Quote from: Tiruin on June 14, 2014, 07:03:25 pm

Quote from: 4maskwolf on June 14, 2014, 06:39:19 pm

MOWE, it's LYLO and PTDfun is dead.

TIRUIN!!!!!!!!

PFP: Count again. It's MYLO. :V

4mask

Quote from: 4maskwolf on June 12, 2014, 09:03:07 pm

unvote...
wait, we're past time, aren't we...
damn it...

Explain.

No.

PTDfun is dead.

He is currently on the alive list.

Thus, it is LYLO.

You played a sneaky scum trick there, Tiruin.  I tied up the vote specifically so that I would have an additional day to read people, but instead you pushed the vote over the top on someone I didn't think was scum.  I tried to remove my vote from them, but then realized it was too late.  You sneaked in a vote at the last minute, like Leafsnail tried to do, and this time I reacted too late and didn't have a personal extend.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day Two - Replacements needed!
Post by: Silthuri on June 14, 2014, 08:16:09 pm

*Kicks self*

So much messing up....

Previous message has been corrected.

Votecount:

• LARD:
• 4maskwolf:Tiruin (1)
• Deathsword:
• RangerCado:
• Tiruin: 4maskwolf (1)

Not Voting: LARD, Deathsword, RangerCado

RangerCado and Deathsword have requested replacement!

The game has entered LYLO! The day will end when the majority vote to end the day or votes don't change for 24 hours!

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day Two - Replacements needed!
Post by: LARD on June 14, 2014, 08:27:25 pm

I would like RangerCado and Deathsword in here post haste. I know Tiruin and 4maskwolf have been active, but it would really be lousy if you two were the mafia and we ripped each other to shreds while you lurked. I know there are technical difficulties on your ends or something like this, but I would really rather you gave us a list of reads at least.
As for my reads:
4maskwolf: Slightly scummy due to this

Quote from: 4maskwolf on June 12, 2014, 07:16:31 pm

*Does a player count*

Alright, PTDfun.  Nothing personal, but I'd rather stay alive long enough to be useful.  This is basically day one for me.

If anyone finds this offensive, feel free to kill me off by moving the vote from a tie.

his throwaway attitude seems to me like a scum under heavy fire, but last game I played with him he didn't do this kind of thing at all, so I'm confused about him.
His push for an extra day at MYLO isn't all that in his favour in my opinion.  I always thought that one should try to avoid a tie in votes as a tie in votes would just grant the mafia an extra kill in relation to the number of lynches.  It would seem that he was sure that PTDfun wasn't mafia and then despite being active, "missed" the chance to unvote.
Tiruin: I don't like making references to past games, but I will again.  She seemed like mafia to me then, but wasn't.  This is why I wish she and Jack had interrogated each other more.  Now that I know that what Jack said was genuine, I would have had a better picture of Tiruin.  She jumped in to avoid a tie, I suppose that could have been intended to kill a townie, but since I though PTDfun was acting like mafia, it was justified. 
Other two: Please just give me something to work with. I miss you  :-[.
I think that probably there is one mafia between the two active players and one between the two inactive ones.
I can't imagine this morning behaviour between tiruin and 4mask if they are both scum, and I also can't imagine that two "lurkers" have hoodwinked us for so long.

I'm going to ask MOWE if I can LARD  Unvote as just a way to extend the day a bit and give us a bit more time.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day Two - Replacements needed!
Post by: Tiruin on June 15, 2014, 02:55:14 am

Quote from: 4maskwolf on June 14, 2014, 07:06:46 pm

Quote from: Tiruin on June 14, 2014, 07:03:25 pm

Quote from: 4maskwolf on June 14, 2014, 06:39:19 pm

MOWE, it's LYLO and PTDfun is dead.

TIRUIN!!!!!!!!

PFP: Count again. It's MYLO. :V

4mask

Quote from: 4maskwolf on June 12, 2014, 09:03:07 pm

unvote...
wait, we're past time, aren't we...
damn it...

Explain.

No.

PTDfun is dead.

He is currently on the alive list.

Thus, it is LYLO.

You played a sneaky scum trick there, Tiruin.  I tied up the vote specifically so that I would have an additional day to read people, but instead you pushed the vote over the top on someone I didn't think was scum.  I tried to remove my vote from them, but then realized it was too late.  You sneaked in a vote at the last minute, like Leafsnail tried to do, and this time I reacted too late and didn't have a personal extend.

O-o?
Err, hi 4mask.

You do know I knew that you were online, yes? Next: How does the orange portion justify your read as of the yesterday when your justifying note had the addendum of 'lynch me I don't care'?
Next orange: Someone I didn't think was scum? Did you bother to voice that out when you voted them? You didn't say snuff about that reason. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=138613.msg5370058#msg5370058)

And now you bring up one of the cheapest and most undignified cards to accuse others of?
...The very fact that you're doing such breaks my confidence that you're not doing a scum ploy--yet it is possible.

MOWE: Extend until suitable replacements are found!

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day Two - Replacements needed!
Post by: 4maskwolf on June 15, 2014, 09:11:43 am

Quote from: Tiruin on June 15, 2014, 02:55:14 am

O-o?
Err, hi 4mask.

You do know I knew that you were online, yes? Next: How does the orange portion justify your read as of the yesterday when your justifying note had the addendum of 'lynch me I don't care'?
Next orange: Someone I didn't think was scum? Did you bother to voice that out when you voted them? You didn't say snuff about that reason. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=138613.msg5370058#msg5370058)

And now you bring up one of the cheapest and most undignified cards to accuse others of?
...The very fact that you're doing such breaks my confidence that you're not doing a scum ploy--yet it is possible.

MOWE: Extend until suitable replacements are found!

Hi Tiruin.

The whole "lynch me I don't care" thing was, first of all, not an "I don't care".  It was "I would rather be lynched than PTDfun because  I already look suspicious, so if it comes down to two townies being lynched I would want the more suspicious one lynched so that the game can focus on finding scum the next day rather than lynching the other in a LYLO situation".
Which you immediately subverted with a last minute lynch.

About your whole "online" thing: yes, I was online.  I was also not actively checking a game I believed to be winding down.  You post one place:

Quote from: Tiruin on June 12, 2014, 08:02:03 pm

...We're heading into a tie, why?

Grousing about the tie with an hour to go but only vote here:

Quote from: Tiruin on June 12, 2014, 08:57:01 pm

...PTDfun. More on solidifying this than not.

with THREE MINUTES to go, thus nullifying the ability to counteract your vote.  You were well aware that the game was going to a tie almost an hour before that, yet you chose to wait until the last minute to make your vote.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day Two - Replacements needed!
Post by: 4maskwolf on June 15, 2014, 09:20:00 am

Quote from: LARD on June 14, 2014, 08:27:25 pm

I would like RangerCado and Deathsword in here post haste. I know Tiruin and 4maskwolf have been active, but it would really be lousy if you two were the mafia and we ripped each other to shreds while you lurked. I know there are technical difficulties on your ends or something like this, but I would really rather you gave us a list of reads at least.
As for my reads:
4maskwolf: Slightly scummy due to this

Quote from: 4maskwolf on June 12, 2014, 07:16:31 pm

*Does a player count*

Alright, PTDfun.  Nothing personal, but I'd rather stay alive long enough to be useful.  This is basically day one for me.

If anyone finds this offensive, feel free to kill me off by moving the vote from a tie.

his throwaway attitude seems to me like a scum under heavy fire, but last game I played with him he didn't do this kind of thing at all, so I'm confused about him.
His push for an extra day at MYLO isn't all that in his favour in my opinion.  I always thought that one should try to avoid a tie in votes as a tie in votes would just grant the mafia an extra kill in relation to the number of lynches.  It would seem that he was sure that PTDfun wasn't mafia and then despite being active, "missed" the chance to unvote.
Tiruin: I don't like making references to past games, but I will again.  She seemed like mafia to me then, but wasn't.  This is why I wish she and Jack had interrogated each other more.  Now that I know that what Jack said was genuine, I would have had a better picture of Tiruin.  She jumped in to avoid a tie, I suppose that could have been intended to kill a townie, but since I though PTDfun was acting like mafia, it was justified. 
Other two: Please just give me something to work with. I miss you  :-[.
I think that probably there is one mafia between the two active players and one between the two inactive ones.
I can't imagine this morning behaviour between tiruin and 4mask if they are both scum, and I also can't imagine that two "lurkers" have hoodwinked us for so long.

I'm going to ask MOWE if I can LARD  Unvote as just a way to extend the day a bit and give us a bit more time.

LARD, Cado and Deathsword are GONE.  They have requested replacement: we can't rely on them to play at all.  It's down to the three of us.  They aren't lurking: they are no longer in the game.

You only think it was justified because you thought PTDfun was mafia.  Would you have the same reaction if I had been last minute lynched?  Because it could have gone either way.  Tiruin lynched the less suspicious (in the eyes of the majority of active players) player, then killed off one of the players who was not highly suspected, leaving the game with really herself, a guy who was suspicious due to the actions of his predecessor, and a somewhat inexperienced player, the idea likely being that it is easier to hide scummy actions from someone who is new than a veteran like Jack.  Because Jack would have called her on the last minute vote just the same as I did.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day Two - Replacements needed!
Post by: Tiruin on June 15, 2014, 10:50:29 am

Quote from: 4maskwolf on June 15, 2014, 09:11:43 am

with THREE MINUTES to go, thus nullifying the ability to counteract your vote.  You were well aware that the game was going to a tie almost an hour before that, yet you chose to wait until the last minute to make your vote.

>_>
I wasn't aware of the time when I had posted due to net shenanigans--It's raining day and night here and the net is slower than molasses. I can't even get any LONG posts (such as Long Live the Queen's DF Update + Save; My RTD update; The RTD Library...) to work because I click post...
...
Loading...
...
And then nothing!

Quote from: 4maskwolf on June 15, 2014, 09:20:00 am

Quote from: LARD on June 14, 2014, 08:27:25 pm

I would like RangerCado and Deathsword in here post haste. I know Tiruin and 4maskwolf have been active, but it would really be lousy if you two were the mafia and we ripped each other to shreds while you lurked. I know there are technical difficulties on your ends or something like this, but I would really rather you gave us a list of reads at least.
As for my reads:
4maskwolf: Slightly scummy due to this

Quote from: 4maskwolf on June 12, 2014, 07:16:31 pm

*Does a player count*

Alright, PTDfun.  Nothing personal, but I'd rather stay alive long enough to be useful.  This is basically day one for me.

If anyone finds this offensive, feel free to kill me off by moving the vote from a tie.

his throwaway attitude seems to me like a scum under heavy fire, but last game I played with him he didn't do this kind of thing at all, so I'm confused about him.
His push for an extra day at MYLO isn't all that in his favour in my opinion.  I always thought that one should try to avoid a tie in votes as a tie in votes would just grant the mafia an extra kill in relation to the number of lynches.  It would seem that he was sure that PTDfun wasn't mafia and then despite being active, "missed" the chance to unvote.
Tiruin: I don't like making references to past games, but I will again.  She seemed like mafia to me then, but wasn't.  This is why I wish she and Jack had interrogated each other more.  Now that I know that what Jack said was genuine, I would have had a better picture of Tiruin.  She jumped in to avoid a tie, I suppose that could have been intended to kill a townie, but since I though PTDfun was acting like mafia, it was justified. 
Other two: Please just give me something to work with. I miss you  :-[.
I think that probably there is one mafia between the two active players and one between the two inactive ones.
I can't imagine this morning behaviour between tiruin and 4mask if they are both scum, and I also can't imagine that two "lurkers" have hoodwinked us for so long.

I'm going to ask MOWE if I can LARD  Unvote as just a way to extend the day a bit and give us a bit more time.

LARD, Cado and Deathsword are GONE.  They have requested replacement: we can't rely on them to play at all.  It's down to the three of us.  They aren't lurking: they are no longer in the game.

You only think it was justified because you thought PTDfun was mafia.  Would you have the same reaction if I had been last minute lynched?  Because it could have gone either way.  Tiruin lynched the less suspicious (in the eyes of the majority of active players) player, then killed off one of the players who was not highly suspected, leaving the game with really herself, a guy who was suspicious due to the actions of his predecessor, and a somewhat inexperienced player, the idea likely being that it is easier to hide scummy actions from someone who is new than a veteran like Jack.  Because Jack would have called her on the last minute vote just the same as I did.

Not really--they are technically still playing if and until MOWE finds a considerable replacement.

Now I query your less suspicious person in the eyes of the majority--what makes you say that when you conclude before asking me anything (yeah PTD, sorry for not getting your post back there, only saw it lately). The second orange area leaves a large case of paranoia and oversimplification of your role--you just by generalizing experience. You attempt to bring up the motive of the kill, and pin me on it. You state all these without giving any sort of backing other than empirical data which you judged and concluded with your own eye.

Tell me, you judge me so hard on that 'last minute vote'. Explain why I would do such if I would be caught in the tomorrow? I find it impractical do so such an error (and indignified to pull that 'LAST MINUTE VOTE HAHA' scum card you tote) in that case, given the state of the situation at hand.

Next point. Why did you want an extra day, even? heading into the tie? What made you so sure to tie it instead of go into the lynch to eliminate probable suspects? Given your detail in recent posts, you are very much "certain" in your tone and judge because he's town--how did you see PTD before the lynch?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day Two - Replacements needed!
Post by: 4maskwolf on June 15, 2014, 11:42:09 am

Quote from: Tiruin on June 15, 2014, 10:50:29 am

Quote from: 4maskwolf on June 15, 2014, 09:20:00 am

LARD, Cado and Deathsword are GONE.  They have requested replacement: we can't rely on them to play at all.  It's down to the three of us.  They aren't lurking: they are no longer in the game.

You only think it was justified because you thought PTDfun was mafia.  Would you have the same reaction if I had been last minute lynched?  Because it could have gone either way.  Tiruin lynched the less suspicious (in the eyes of the majority of active players) player, then killed off one of the players who was not highly suspected, leaving the game with really herself, a guy who was suspicious due to the actions of his predecessor, and a somewhat inexperienced player, the idea likely being that it is easier to hide scummy actions from someone who is new than a veteran like Jack.  Because Jack would have called her on the last minute vote just the same as I did.

Not really--they are technically still playing if and until MOWE finds a considerable replacement.

Now I query your less suspicious person in the eyes of the majority--what makes you say that when you conclude before asking me anything (yeah PTD, sorry for not getting your post back there, only saw it lately). The second orange area leaves a large case of paranoia and oversimplification of your role--you just by generalizing experience. You attempt to bring up the motive of the kill, and pin me on it. You state all these without giving any sort of backing other than empirical data which you judged and concluded with your own eye.

[1]Tell me, you judge me so hard on that 'last minute vote'. Explain why I would do such if I would be caught in the tomorrow? I find it impractical do so such an error (and indignified to pull that 'LAST MINUTE VOTE HAHA' scum card you tote) in that case, given the state of the situation at hand.

Next point. [2]Why did you want an extra day, even? heading into the tie? What made you so sure to tie it instead of go into the lynch to eliminate probable suspects? Given your detail in recent posts, you are very much "certain" in your tone and judge because he's town--[3]how did you see PTD before the lynch?

[1] You would do it because you are clever and good at playing mafia.  I just realized something else, too: guess who died in the past day?  That's right, both the players who were voting for me.  Because you are confident you can pin the blame for your actions on me, so you took a chance.  A chance that you still hope will pay off.

[2] I wanted the extra day because if I didn't, I would be lynched before being able to get a full read of the players in this game. Thus, I placed the tieing vote in order to give myself that time.

[3] Before I even placed the vote on him, I said that I saw him as town right here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=138613.msg5368140#msg5368140).  Nothing he did struck me as scummy, and he was active and playing well, so I read him as town.

Quote from: Tiruin on June 15, 2014, 10:50:29 am

I wasn't aware of the time when I had posted due to net shenanigans--It's raining day and night here and the net is slower than molasses. I can't even get any LONG posts (such as Long Live the Queen's DF Update + Save; My RTD update; The RTD Library...) to work because I click post...
...
Loading...
...
And then nothing!

If you can email the LLtQ update to me, I can post it in your stead, since you are having difficulty.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day Two - Replacements needed!
Post by: Tiruin on June 15, 2014, 11:55:04 am

Quote from: 4maskwolf on June 15, 2014, 11:42:09 am

[1] You would do it because you are clever and good at playing mafia.  I just realized something else, too: guess who died in the past day?  That's right, both the players who were voting for me.  Because you are confident you can pin the blame for your actions on me, so you took a chance.  A chance that you still hope will pay off.

*opens mouth to speak*
...
What did I say about paranoia :I
If I was taking that chance, I'd be attacking you head on since the start. I'm just confused how you're focused on me due to that one part there, and by that I mean all your theories popping up especially at a crucial point in time such as LYLO [thanks MOWE...it wasn't LYLO when you didn't edit it ._.].

Quote

[2] I wanted the extra day because if I didn't, I would be lynched before being able to get a full read of the players in this game. Thus, I placed the tieing vote in order to give myself that time.

IC advice on: Speaking it like this (and like as said the previous day) would give a hunch that you're a power role because +1 day.
Let me be frank. Are you the cop? It would do best to roleclaim during these times.

Quote from: 4maskwolf on June 15, 2014, 11:42:09 am

[3] Before I even placed the vote on him, I said that I saw him as town right here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=138613.msg5368140#msg5368140).  Nothing he did struck me as scummy, and he was active and playing well, so I read him as town.

...I didn't even see that. Blehh new pages. >_>
Unvote. Reasonable note there: cycle back to #2 query due to importance.

Why would you tie a vote based on your read of a person instead of putting the notice towards the majorty? How did you view everyone, then?

Quote from: Tiruin on June 15, 2014, 10:50:29 am

If you can email the LLtQ update to me, I can post it in your stead, since you are having difficulty.

When I said I'm seriously getting arghghghnet, I seriously mean I'm getting arhghg net. Yahoo mail can't even :I

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day Two - Replacements needed!
Post by: 4maskwolf on June 15, 2014, 12:06:25 pm

Quote from: Tiruin on June 15, 2014, 11:55:04 am

*opens mouth to speak*
...
What did I say about paranoia :I
If I was taking that chance, I'd be attacking you head on since the start. I'm just confused how you're focused on me due to that one part there, and by that I mean all your theories popping up especially at a crucial point in time such as LYLO [thanks MOWE...it wasn't LYLO when you didn't edit it ._.].

My theories popped up at LYLO because I replaced in the day before LYLO, so I didn't have a chance to formulate theories before now.  For me to formulate theories, I have to actually be present when things are happening.

Quote from: Tiruin on June 15, 2014, 11:55:04 am

IC advice on: Speaking it like this (and like as said the previous day) would give a hunch that you're a power role because +1 day.
Let me be frank. Are you the cop? It would do best to roleclaim during these times.

As much as I would like to be, I am not the cop.  As a point of fact, I think our power role (singular) is replacing out right now.

Quote from: Tiruin on June 15, 2014, 11:55:04 am

...I didn't even see that. Blehh new pages. >_>
Unvote. Reasonable note there: cycle back to #2 query due to importance.

Why would you tie a vote based on your read of a person instead of putting the notice towards the majorty? How did you view everyone, then?

Erm...
the majority wanted to lynch me.
And there wasn't much time left in the game, so I doubted they would get on.
I also didn't tie it based on my read, I tied it because I had no other choice to vote him as opposed to anyone I thought was scum.  And at the time I didn't have a good read on anyone.
My reads on everyone:
Scummiest
Tiruin
LARD
4maskwolf
Least Scummy

With the other two not being on the list because argleblargle replacements.

Also, unvote?  That threw me for a loop a little, time to reconsider.

Quote from: Tiruin on June 15, 2014, 11:55:04 am

When I said I'm seriously getting arghghghnet, I seriously mean I'm getting arhghg net. Yahoo mail can't even :I

Ouch.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day Two - Replacements needed!
Post by: Tiruin on June 15, 2014, 12:58:21 pm

Quote from: 4maskwolf on June 15, 2014, 12:06:25 pm

Also, unvote?  That threw me for a loop a little, time to reconsider.

O_o [The BM no timer rule works given that I just unvoted by the way]
IC Note: It's best to keep your vote if you're unsure--unless you've a good reason to unvote :P -- keeping a vote on someone is more like a tangible opinion of them (as well as unvoting) due to the...err, weight a vote has in regard to the lynch--Town's #1 weapon, in other words.

Player note: I unvoted you because...it doesn't make sense that you're scum now that I (yay loading pages) reread. Obviously not spoken in exacts but you get my point. .__.

...But really? You attempted a tie just to get another day in?
I'm a bit exasperated(?) [err, surprised to a lesser degree?] on that point given that your reads are quite acute, and there is merit in seeing a MYLO instead of a LYLO situation.
..
Mmm. It was a good point in hindsight. Though this is taken from me trying a PoV parallel to yours..yeah, good point.

PFP checking back later trying to up the net. Or sleep. ._.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day Two - Replacements needed!
Post by: 4maskwolf on June 15, 2014, 09:45:34 pm

Urk...

Erm...

Okay.  This is how I'm going to do this.

Tiruin

Request Replacement

Because surgery tomorrow and urk.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day Two - Replacements needed!
Post by: Jack A T on June 16, 2014, 01:23:27 am

Hi, everyone.  I may be dead, but not even death itself can stop an IC!  I can give advice when dead.

For instance, never, ever, ever do whatever that was that happened at the end of the last day.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day Two - Replacements needed!
Post by: LARD on June 16, 2014, 09:05:13 am

Who are you talking to, 4mask or Tiruin? It seems that their actions were opposites.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day Two - Replacements needed!
Post by: Silthuri on June 16, 2014, 02:17:33 pm

Votecount:

• LARD:
• 4maskwolf:
• Deathsword:
• RangerCado:
• Tiruin: 4maskwolf (1)

Not Voting: LARD, Deathsword, RangerCado, Tiruin

RangerCado and Deathsword have requested replacement!

The game has entered LYLO! The day will end when the majority vote to end the day or votes don't change for 24 hours!

Game ends in ~7 hours unless someone changes their vote.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day Two - Replacements needed!
Post by: LARD on June 16, 2014, 04:45:20 pm

wait, wait everyone, I can't have this happening. To be honest, I'm not really happy with how the game is shaping up. I don't really think Tiruin is scum and I'm leaning toward 4mask.  I hope this is okay, I only want to prevent a stupid mistake.  Tiruin, do you still want to play or has this game died out?

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day Three - Replacements needed!
Post by: Tiruin on June 16, 2014, 07:24:43 pm

Quote from: LARD on June 16, 2014, 04:45:20 pm

wait, wait everyone, I can't have this happening. To be honest, I'm not really happy with how the game is shaping up. I don't really think Tiruin is scum and I'm leaning toward 4mask.  I hope this is okay, I only want to prevent a stupid mistake.  Tiruin, do you still want to play or has this game died out?

I fail as an IC and as my role dictates.

Though 3/5 players are stepping out.

...
Words can't explain my feelings at this.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day Three - Replacements needed!
Post by: 4maskwolf on June 16, 2014, 07:27:02 pm

Quote from: Tiruin on June 16, 2014, 07:24:43 pm

Quote from: LARD on June 16, 2014, 04:45:20 pm

wait, wait everyone, I can't have this happening. To be honest, I'm not really happy with how the game is shaping up. I don't really think Tiruin is scum and I'm leaning toward 4mask.  I hope this is okay, I only want to prevent a stupid mistake.  Tiruin, do you still want to play or has this game died out?

I fail as an IC and as my role dictates.

Though 3/5 players are stepping out.

...
Words can't explain my feelings at this.

You don't fail.

Also, LARD, state your case against me.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day Three - Replacements needed!
Post by: LARD on June 17, 2014, 10:13:23 am

Oh good, you're back. How was surgery?

My vote was just to tie it up and keep the day from ending so soon. As MOWE said that the day would end if votes didn't change for 24 hrs the day would end. Since we only have three active players and I have to consider the possibility that both you and Tiruin are mafia,(in which case I am royally screwed and my only hope is to delay until replacements arrive which probably won't happen for a while) I decided to even the vote and so at least whoever the night roles are would have a chance to act. Unvote to give us more time.

I do however have a case against you. You push for Mylo instead of Lylo at a time when it is only beneficial to you. In this case the scum get two kills in place of a lynch and a nightkill. The lynch is the town's greatest weapon and also, it gives the scum an extra chance to kill a power role if there is one. Now, if a power role were about to be lynched, they would claim and therefore give a ton of information.  If your plan fell through, the mafia would get an extra kill and hopefully, from your perspective, hit the power role or one of them.
So looking at that from this perspective, I have decided that you are most likely a scum, 4maskwolf but I unvote and vote to give us more time.  You state your case on Tiruin.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day Three - Replacements needed!
Post by: 4maskwolf on June 17, 2014, 10:25:31 am

I have stated my case against Tiruin repeatedly. However, I'm straddling to become more suspicious of you, what with your weak case against me. Let's assume for a minute that despite your belief, I am town. Now, let's extend this assumption.

At the end of yesterday, I was fairly certain I knew who was going to be nk'd, regardless of who the scum actually was. Assuming Jack A T wasn't scum, he was the IC who was the most active, indeed possibly the player who was most active. If he was scum, then the nk would likely have been directed against Tiruin.

So, let's just say I rolled over and got lynched without tying up the vote. Now, I knew you were suspicious of PTDfun, so after I died, along with Jack (I suspected Jack was town, but I wasn't as sure as about PTDfun), you would move to lynch PTD, my primary town suspect. As such,  I moved for a no-lynch to avoid this scenario. Tiruin broke the tie, and the one person I thought was town got killed.

Now, I know at least one of you two is scum. Initially I thought it was Tiru, but I'm starting to suspect you are playing the game more shrewdly than I thought. However, I don't have a firm case against you right now.

So tell me, why do you not believe Tiruin is scum?

Also, on the off chance both of you are scum, you should just both vote me rather than continuing the charade. The other two won't interfere, they're not playing anymore.

Oh, and surgery was bothersome.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day Three - Replacements needed!
Post by: 4maskwolf on June 17, 2014, 10:29:11 am

Oh, and unvote, you didn't actually change the vote count with your vote-unvote LARD.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day Three - Replacements needed!
Post by: LARD on June 17, 2014, 12:07:59 pm

Quote from: 4maskwolf on June 17, 2014, 10:25:31 am

I have stated my case against Tiruin repeatedly. However, I'm straddling to become more suspicious of you, what with your weak case against me. Let's assume for a minute that despite your belief, I am town. Now, let's extend this assumption.

At the end of yesterday, I was fairly certain I knew who was going to be nk'd, regardless of who the scum actually was. Assuming Jack A T wasn't scum, he was the IC who was the most active, indeed possibly the player who was most active. If he was scum, then the nk would likely have been directed against Tiruin.

So, let's just say I rolled over and got lynched without tying up the vote. Now, I knew you were suspicious of PTDfun, so after I died, along with Jack (I suspected Jack was town, but I wasn't as sure as about PTDfun), you would move to lynch PTD, my primary town suspect. As such,  I moved for a no-lynch to avoid this scenario. Tiruin broke the tie, and the one person I thought was town got killed.

Now, I know at least one of you two is scum. Initially I thought it was Tiru, but I'm starting to suspect you are playing the game more shrewdly than I thought. However, I don't have a firm case against you right now.

So tell me, why do you not believe Tiruin is scum?

Also, on the off chance both of you are scum, you should just both vote me rather than continuing the charade. The other two won't interfere, they're not playing anymore.

Oh, and surgery was bothersome.

1. I don't know what your case on Tiruin is other than that she moved to stop you tying a vote that would save a suspected mafia.  I mean, look at it from her perspective.  She didn't know whether PTDfun was scum or not, but the prevailing view (which I shared) was that PTDfun was the most likely to be scum.  When you jumped in and tied the vote, Tiruin would probably only have seen somebody trying to save a suspected scum.  This is not to say that she was wise or did the right thing or even that she isn't acting scummy. My point is that your actions are suspicious and unwarranted to say the least.
2. OK, so your primary town suspect was PTDfun and you still moved to get him lynched. I guess to save yourself, a confirmed town in your eyes, is not that heinous but it still doesn't add up.
3. I don't think that you can say that you know one of the two of us is scum.  I think it's your behaviour that doesn't add up here.  Heck, it could just be the two lurkers who are letting us duke it out in their absence, but I too think that's extremely unlikely.
4. I just don't think I have any reason to believe she is.  You think she is because of that jump on PTDfun but until that point I thought that he was scum and would have jumped on it too.

Both scum? No. But I would be really annoyed if both you and Tiruin were scum. But that also seems extremely unlikely.

And get well soon!

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day Three - Replacements needed!
Post by: 4maskwolf on June 17, 2014, 12:46:25 pm

1. It's not her vote, it's how she wielded it and when she wielded it. But your case is the one that interests me more now.

2. I did not move to get him lynched, I moved to tie the vote so NEITHER of us would die. I was trying to save both of us by placing my vote on him.

3. I know that I'm not scum. You even admitted that the two people who are replacing out (they aren't lurkers, there is a HUGE difference there) are unlikely to both be scum, and as such I know that at least one of you two is scum. It's simple math.

4. If Tiru and I were both scum, we would both vote you and get it over with, because the two other players CAN'T PLAY RIGHT NOW THEY AREN'T LURKING. People replace out because they CAN'T play.


Your case against me appears to be founded in the idea that because you thought PTD was scum, therefore my voting him to prevent myself from being lynched was somehow trying to save HIM. Which is ridiculous, because if I had wanted to save only him I would have just gotten myself lynched. As it was, I was trying to avoid a mislynch in the last hours of the day. AND, I was right about PTD, yet you still think it is scummy that I was trying to "save" him.

What "prevailing view" are you referring to? ONE PERSON (you) was voting PTD before I tied the vote, while TWO were voting for me. Your arguments make absolutely no sense, LARD

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day Three - Replacements needed!
Post by: LARD on June 17, 2014, 01:14:27 pm

1. The way she wielded her vote was logical for someone not knowing that PTDfun was town, as I said. 
2. So you moved to a tie, and she moved it off a tie to someone who looked suspicious. Is that a bad thing?
3. I said it was unlikely, yes, but I think that the probable scum team is you and one of the replacers. Simple math if you take for granted that you are not scum, which I doubt.
4. OK, if you were both scum you could just stomp me, game over, so apparently you're not and it is you and one of the replacers. Or it is tiruin and one of the replacers.

I will give my case on you in points and clearly. I hope you will do the same for Tiruin because for the life of me I can't figure out why you think her behaviour is scummy.
1.  Pushing for a tie. Logical to save oneself, but it just gives the mafia an extra kill that night, placing us at Mylo, where the correct procedure, I believe, is to nolynch again.
2. Attacking someone for logical town behaviour.  You freak out because your plan didn't work and immediately pin suspicion on Tiruin in the morning, where she could just have been acting out of suspicion of PTDfun and a desire to not see the game go to Lylo.
3. No. Your arguments make no sense. You vote me simply because you don't agree with my points but you have neglected to answer my queries as to this one point: Why attack Tiruin for something she was logically entitled to do?

Thank you

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day Three - Replacements needed!
Post by: 4maskwolf on June 17, 2014, 01:36:29 pm

Quote from: LARD on June 17, 2014, 01:14:27 pm

1. The way she wielded her vote was logical for someone not knowing that PTDfun was town, as I said. 
2. So you moved to a tie, and she moved it off a tie to someone who looked suspicious. Is that a bad thing?
3. I said it was unlikely, yes, but I think that the probable scum team is you and one of the replacers. Simple math if you take for granted that you are not scum, which I doubt.
4. OK, if you were both scum you could just stomp me, game over, so apparently you're not and it is you and one of the replacers. Or it is tiruin and one of the replacers.

I will give my case on you in points and clearly. I hope you will do the same for Tiruin because for the life of me I can't figure out why you think her behaviour is scummy.
1.  Pushing for a tie. Logical to save oneself, but it just gives the mafia an extra kill that night, placing us at Mylo, where the correct procedure, I believe, is to nolynch again.
2. Attacking someone for logical town behaviour.  You freak out because your plan didn't work and immediately pin suspicion on Tiruin in the morning, where she could just have been acting out of suspicion of PTDfun and a desire to not see the game go to Lylo.
3. No. Your arguments make no sense. You vote me simply because you don't agree with my points but you have neglected to answer my queries as to this one point: Why attack Tiruin for something she was logically entitled to do?

Thank you

1.1: My case is, to repeat for the fifteenth time, NOT that she used her vote.  She posted an hour before day end to gripe about the tie, was on for most of that hour, yet only posted a vote with THREE MINUTES left in the day to prevent me from unvoting to tie it again.  But this has been explained, so I unvoted.
2.1: Not the fact that she moved the tie, when she did it.  Once more, I have unvoted her after she explained things to my current satisfaction.
3.1: You are accusing me of being scum, but have yet to answer any of the questions and implied questions in my previous posts, all of which undermine your entire case.
4.1: This is assuming you are not scum, which I doubt.

1.2: What extra kill?  They don't get two kills because there was no lynch.  Yes, the correct MYLO procedure is to no-lynch USUALLY, but it would also give us more TIME, which we sorely need in this game.  That is what you are not understanding.  It was to save myself so I would have more TIME.
2.2: Logical town behavior of waiting until the last three minutes of the day to vote when you were on before that? That, sir, is logical scum behavior.  Please actually read the cases I present before accusing me based on them.
3.2: No, I vote you because your points make no sense.  I've answered your question twice in this post, thank you.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day Two - Replacements needed!
Post by: Silthuri on June 17, 2014, 04:54:40 pm

Votecount:

• LARD: 4maskwolf (1)
• 4maskwolf: LARD (1)
• Deathsword:
• RangerCado:
• Tiruin:

Not Voting:Deathsword, RangerCado, Tiruin

RangerCado, Deathsword and 4maskwolf have requested replacement!

The day will end when the majority vote to end the day or votes don't change for 24 hours!

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day Three - Replacements needed!
Post by: Tiruin on June 17, 2014, 04:58:19 pm

Tiruin, Unvote.

PFP-this game needs more time. my net kills me.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day Three - Replacements needed!
Post by: 4maskwolf on June 17, 2014, 04:59:07 pm

4maskwolf retracts replacement request.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day Three - Replacements needed!
Post by: Tiruin on June 17, 2014, 05:02:08 pm

Quote from: 4maskwolf on June 17, 2014, 10:25:31 am

Also, on the off chance both of you are scum, you should just both vote me rather than continuing the charade. The other two won't interfere, they're not playing anymore.

I would not do this if I and LARD was scum. Because that cheaps the game, to use crude adjectives for it.
That, and I'm an IC.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day Two - Replacements needed!
Post by: Silthuri on June 18, 2014, 11:26:48 am

Votecount:

• LARD: 4maskwolf (1)
• 4maskwolf: LARD (1)
• Deathsword:
• RangerCado:
• Tiruin:

Not Voting:Deathsword, RangerCado, Tiruin

RangerCado and Deathsword have requested replacement.

The day will end when the majority vote to end the day or votes don't change for 24 hours.

Day ends in ~5.5 hours

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day Three - Replacements needed!
Post by: 4maskwolf on June 18, 2014, 11:43:50 am

unvote, the day isn't ending this quickly.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day Three - Replacements needed!
Post by: Silthuri on June 19, 2014, 03:52:31 pm

Day has ended!

Write up will come when I get home.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day Three - Replacements needed!
Post by: 4maskwolf on June 19, 2014, 06:01:51 pm

Naturally, I forgot to vote LARD and continue the day

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day Three - Replacements needed!
Post by: Tiruin on June 19, 2014, 06:10:12 pm

Quote from: 4maskwolf on June 19, 2014, 06:01:51 pm

Naturally, I forgot to vote LARD and continue the day

*hugs*
I am so sorry 4mask.
For my everything.
^{Bad net notwithstanding...I should've been better while the time permitted.}

Quote from: MyOwnWorstEnemy on June 19, 2014, 03:52:31 pm

Day has ended!

Write up will come when I get home.

Same to you MOWE. Sorry :X

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day Three - Replacements needed!
Post by: Silthuri on June 19, 2014, 08:12:45 pm

With the death of 4maskwolf, the traitors knew they were home free. The remaining two loyalists were disposed of quickly and the key was taken out of Deathsword's cell. The traitors Tiruin and LARD made their way to the main entrance to let the hoard of hunters into the castle. They did not wish to see the result of their betrayal and left while the hunters pursued the Mistress.

The peaceful clan was no more.

Votecount:

• LARD:
• 4maskwolf: LARD (1)
• Deathsword:
• RangerCado:
• Tiruin:

Not Voting: Deathsword, RangerCado, Tiruin

4maskwolf has been lynched! He was a vanilla townie!

The traitors win!

Deathsword/Scripten was the cop. They sent in no actions. There was no jailkeeper, even though I had flavor planned for them and everything... Stupid dice being stupid...

Scum Chat (http://quicktopic.com/50/H/6KMf4J9maZ7Y)
Dead Chat (http://quicktopic.com/50/H/6FrBg8VS4HJ)

Quote from: Tiruin on June 19, 2014, 06:10:12 pm

Quote from: MyOwnWorstEnemy on June 19, 2014, 03:52:31 pm

Day has ended!

Write up will come when I get home.

Same to you MOWE. Sorry :X

There's nothing to be sorry for. You did your best to be here and were more active than most.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day Three - Replacements needed!
Post by: 4maskwolf on June 19, 2014, 08:14:21 pm

CALLED IT!!!!!

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day Three - Replacements needed!
Post by: Silthuri on June 19, 2014, 08:23:29 pm

Quote from: 4maskwolf on June 19, 2014, 08:14:21 pm

CALLED IT!!!!!

*Claps* So you did... so you did.


Also, before I forget, special thanks to Nerjin who put up with me asking random Mafia related questions and dealt with me complaining that I'm a bad mod on an almost daily basis.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day Three - Replacements needed!
Post by: Tiruin on June 19, 2014, 08:25:20 pm

Quote from: MyOwnWorstEnemy on June 19, 2014, 08:12:45 pm

Quote from: Tiruin on June 19, 2014, 06:10:12 pm

Quote from: MyOwnWorstEnemy on June 19, 2014, 03:52:31 pm

Day has ended!

Write up will come when I get home.

Same to you MOWE. Sorry :X

There's nothing to be sorry for. You did your best to be here and were more active than most.

I still could've done something...though al my teaching methods were torn between 'hey town, look at how I played earlier and see how I associated with 1. my partner and 2. y'all.' and directly talking with them ._.
Tiruin still sees herself as a failure due to lack of teaching aptitude--perhaps the Mafia subforum would still have that generalization//label//stereotype for being an unforgiving hell with rude people and all that trivial nonsense...

Quote from: MyOwnWorstEnemy on June 19, 2014, 08:23:29 pm

Quote from: 4maskwolf on June 19, 2014, 08:14:21 pm

CALLED IT!!!!!

*Claps* So you did... so you did.


Also, before I forget, special thanks to Nerjin who put up with me asking random Mafia related questions and dealing with me complaining that I'm a bad mod on an almost daily basis.

Nerjin is awesome MOWE. You don't complain in public tho o_O
You're awesome by that logic \o/
^{Troubles do make everyone sorta grumpy...}

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - GAME OVER! SCUM WIN!
Post by: 4maskwolf on June 19, 2014, 08:27:18 pm

Now now Tiruin, you did great. Though why didn't you and LARD just dogpile me as soon as day began. The game would have been over quicker.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day Three - Replacements needed!
Post by: Silthuri on June 19, 2014, 08:43:48 pm

Quote from: Tiruin on June 19, 2014, 08:25:20 pm

Quote from: MyOwnWorstEnemy on June 19, 2014, 08:23:29 pm

Quote from: 4maskwolf on June 19, 2014, 08:14:21 pm

CALLED IT!!!!!

*Claps* So you did... so you did.


Also, before I forget, special thanks to Nerjin who put up with me asking random Mafia related questions and dealing with me complaining that I'm a bad mod on an almost daily basis.

Nerjin is awesome MOWE. You don't complain in public tho o_O
You're awesome by that logic \o/
^{Troubles do make everyone sorta grumpy...}

I complained once or twice... I just didn't want to bother everyone with complaining. I've thought about going to the sad thread, but I start reading other people's issues and find that I have nothing to really complain about...

I know how awesome the Nerjin is. *Goes into hour-long explanation of this fact*

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - Day Three - Replacements needed!
Post by: 4maskwolf on June 19, 2014, 08:45:41 pm

Quote from: MyOwnWorstEnemy on June 19, 2014, 08:43:48 pm

Quote from: Tiruin on June 19, 2014, 08:25:20 pm

Quote from: MyOwnWorstEnemy on June 19, 2014, 08:23:29 pm

Quote from: 4maskwolf on June 19, 2014, 08:14:21 pm

CALLED IT!!!!!

*Claps* So you did... so you did.


Also, before I forget, special thanks to Nerjin who put up with me asking random Mafia related questions and dealing with me complaining that I'm a bad mod on an almost daily basis.

Nerjin is awesome MOWE. You don't complain in public tho o_O
You're awesome by that logic \o/
^{Troubles do make everyone sorta grumpy...}

I complained once or twice... I just didn't want to bother everyone with complaining. I've thought about going to the sad thread, but I start reading other people's issues and find that I have nothing to really complain about...

I know how awesome the Nerjin is. *Goes into hour-long explanation of this fact*

Challenge accepted. If nobody else is modding the next beginner game, I'll take it. This will prove exactly how bad of a mod I am compared to you.

Also, you were a great mod, you just made a few mistakes.

Title: Nerjin is awesome!
Post by: Nerjin on June 19, 2014, 08:46:41 pm

Well... This game just kinda ended there at the... end...


But at least the fact that I'm fantastic, amazing, astounding, handsome, and all around the best person ever... What was I talking about?

Anyways, like I said IRL, you did a pretty good job MOWE.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - GAME OVER! SCUM WIN!
Post by: Jack A T on June 19, 2014, 08:47:33 pm

MOWE, you were a fine mod.  At no point did you, say, replace someone for inactivity without proper warning, for instance.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - GAME OVER! SCUM WIN!
Post by: 4maskwolf on June 19, 2014, 08:50:31 pm

Quote from: Jack A T on June 19, 2014, 08:47:33 pm

MOWE, you were a fine mod.  At no point did you, say, replace someone for inactivity without proper warning, for instance.

Or, you know, reveal facts about your game without the player's permission.

*glares at self in mirror*

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - GAME OVER! SCUM WIN!
Post by: Persus13 on June 19, 2014, 08:59:11 pm

And I was the affected party in both instances.

Quote from: 4maskwolf on June 19, 2014, 08:27:18 pm

Now now Tiruin, you did great. Though why didn't you and LARD just dogpile me as soon as day began. The game would have been over quicker.

Because Tiruin is Lawful Evil and won't be cheap when playing as scum.

Also, I tried giving IC advice, but didn't do too much.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - GAME OVER! SCUM WIN!
Post by: 4maskwolf on June 19, 2014, 09:21:04 pm

Quote from: Persus13 on June 19, 2014, 08:59:11 pm

And I was the affected party in both instances.

Quote from: 4maskwolf on June 19, 2014, 08:27:18 pm

Now now Tiruin, you did great. Though why didn't you and LARD just dogpile me as soon as day began. The game would have been over quicker.

Because Tiruin is Lawful Evil and won't be cheap when playing as scum.

Also, I tried giving IC advice, but didn't do too much.

Sorry about that...

Ah, I see. Tiruin has MORALS. And VALUES.
Pshh. Weakling.

(I'm just kidding, Tiru, don't get offended...)

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - GAME OVER! SCUM WIN!
Post by: Silthuri on June 19, 2014, 09:27:04 pm

Suddenly, I feel very silly for complaining.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - GAME OVER! SCUM WIN!
Post by: Tiruin on June 20, 2014, 03:07:41 am

Quote from: MyOwnWorstEnemy on June 19, 2014, 09:27:04 pm

Suddenly, I feel very silly for complaining.

I still don't Dx
But you're justified in your complaints though. Parental stuffs are...serious. .__.

Quote from: 4maskwolf on June 19, 2014, 09:21:04 pm

Quote from: Persus13 on June 19, 2014, 08:59:11 pm

And I was the affected party in both instances.

Quote from: 4maskwolf on June 19, 2014, 08:27:18 pm

Now now Tiruin, you did great. Though why didn't you and LARD just dogpile me as soon as day began. The game would have been over quicker.

Because Tiruin is Lawful Evil and won't be cheap when playing as scum.

Also, I tried giving IC advice, but didn't do too much.

Sorry about that...

Ah, I see. Tiruin has MORALS. And VALUES.
Pshh. Weakling.

(I'm just kidding, Tiru, don't get offended...)

I can detect your jokes der :p
And yes it did Persus.

I tried giving IC advice.

I have no idea if anyone is learning from it ._.

Quote from: 4maskwolf on June 19, 2014, 08:27:18 pm

Now now Tiruin, you did great. Though why didn't you and LARD just dogpile me as soon as day began. The game would have been over quicker.

...
Would the best explanation be 3 words that say 'it feels wrong'.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - GAME OVER! SCUM WIN!
Post by: 4maskwolf on June 20, 2014, 03:12:24 am

Quote from: Tiruin on June 20, 2014, 03:07:41 am

Quote from: MyOwnWorstEnemy on June 19, 2014, 09:27:04 pm

Suddenly, I feel very silly for complaining.

I still don't Dx
But you're justified in your complaints though. Parental stuffs are...serious. .__.

Quote from: 4maskwolf on June 19, 2014, 09:21:04 pm

Quote from: Persus13 on June 19, 2014, 08:59:11 pm

And I was the affected party in both instances.

Quote from: 4maskwolf on June 19, 2014, 08:27:18 pm

Now now Tiruin, you did great. Though why didn't you and LARD just dogpile me as soon as day began. The game would have been over quicker.

Because Tiruin is Lawful Evil and won't be cheap when playing as scum.

Also, I tried giving IC advice, but didn't do too much.

Sorry about that...

Ah, I see. Tiruin has MORALS. And VALUES.
Pshh. Weakling.

(I'm just kidding, Tiru, don't get offended...)

I can detect your jokes der :p
And yes it did Persus.

I tried giving IC advice.

I have no idea if anyone is learning from it ._.

Quote from: 4maskwolf on June 19, 2014, 08:27:18 pm

Now now Tiruin, you did great. Though why didn't you and LARD just dogpile me as soon as day began. The game would have been over quicker.

...
Would the best explanation be 3 words that say 'it feels wrong'.

I know. I was just reading the scumchat where LARD was trying to get you to just end the thing.

Well, I take solace in the fact that I fought until the end. And then forgot to extend the day. But that's not the point.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - GAME OVER! SCUM WIN!
Post by: 4maskwolf on June 20, 2014, 03:18:36 am

Also, for future reference LARD, liking someone outside the game is not a reason, at least not in my book, not to lynch them. There is only one class of people I refuse to lynch and that is first time players on their first day of their first game. Anyone else is fair game, especially as scum. When you're scum, target anyone you can for whatever you can, as long as you can back up your position. I think MastachCheese is an awesome person, for instance, but I have no qualms about attacking him and voting him within the context of the game. Because I know that in the end, it's just a game.

That being said, as with Tiruin, there may be some things you are unwilling to do as scum, and I'm not here to tell you what to do.

Title: Re: Beginner's Mafia XLVII: Vampire Coven - GAME OVER! SCUM WIN!
Post by: LARD on June 20, 2014, 04:46:48 pm

Quote from: 4maskwolf on June 20, 2014, 03:18:36 am

Also, for future reference LARD, liking someone outside the game is not a reason, at least not in my book, not to lynch them.

No of course not. That was buddying you.

I apologize for the way it had to end. But I'm glad that it did because I have to leave in a few days.

I also apologize for throwing caution to the winds in attacking 4mask.  I know it didn't make much sense but I was getting tired of a replacement hungry game.
Thank you for the game, everybody. (especially MOWE)