Print Page - New good race, to balance all of the evil in this world (Idea)

Just wanted to see if I could help out Masterwork and DF by adding my two cents to the pile. I noticed there are a LOT of Evil'er races in the mix, and I thought that a new good race would even things out, but something that would appeal to the more Evil minded players out there. Come on, you really want to slaughter some stuff, why bother hiding and building when there is some slaughtering to do!

So my thought was this, a Paladin race. I saw elements in all the good races, and I thought, 'Where are these guys coming from? How do they train up?' It would obviously be a multi-racial thing. Drawing from all those who despise evil. So it wouldn't really be a race I guess. I don't know if anything will happen, but I want to present this idea with a flourish. I am looking just to have some !fun! I love modding text files and I will probably do this at my own pace. (ETA - 10 years:) I would happily welcome others, if there is interest. I have created several races, but never felt there was something to contribute, until now.

I see these guys as so Holy they are almost evil. Perhaps they enslave slaver races for example. Kobold workers to do menial labor, finding the light by serving the light rather than just death. It is a mercy for kobolds, they are weak and easily corrupted. A strong hand to protect them is in their best interest. If they cannot be saved, put them to the holy sword. Inspiration would come from:
-Witchhunters (W40K) - Best Example, I want Angels! Dragons and Demons be Damned!
-White Cloaks (Wheel of Time) - Mostly thematic
-Knights Radiant (Stormlight Archives) - Establishing value
-Archons (Age of Wonders) -
-Scarlet Crusade (Barely- Just in case someone doesn't know the above...WoW)

*Clears Throat*

The first of the Factions!
The Knights of the Holy Meph (I can't resist, please forgive me!)

Featuring
-A Holy order of warriors devoted to protecting the works of the creator.
-An order that only draws from the most devoted Worshippers of Meph (Must...Stop...*face goes red with effort*)
-Holy forges and smiths create divine armors for the battling of evil.
-No traditional industries. Receive gifts from the races you defend, and enchant them with the Holy Writ of ... Meph (NOOOOOoooOOOO)
-Develop a Citadel of Light in a world of darkness and blood
-Purge the taints of evil from lands.

Be prepared to lead the world's greatest warriors in battle. No more will you need hide from sieges, you will venture forth and smite the evil do'ers. Even without weapons and armor, these men are the greatest hero's this world has ever seen! Which is good, because someone forgot to bring those peasant guys, the armor, and the weapons, oh and food, wait no. What's in this sack? Seeds! What do you do with these again? Plant them in the skulls of evil do'ers? Guys we got a problem. Where's the Ale?

Gameplay:
You will start with powerful warriors, but they stubbornly refuse to get their hands dirty. After all, they need to polish their armor. Oh, get us seven sets of adamantine armor to polish, NOW! If you are lucky you will start with a peasant. These guys won't care at all about rooms and chairs and tables. You just need to get them the right kind of equipment before they get angry. You wouldn't like a High Lord of Light when he is angry (The blood on his boot does ruin his dashing good looks)

Classes:

T0 - Working people?

T1 - Initiates
-These are the weakest of the order. Still sworn never to do anything useful, all they do is train. The good news is this, they are pretty tough, and they don't care about their clothing, much. Requires a robe (Initiates grade quality).

T2 - Monks
-These are the most common fighters in the order. Good equipment is rare, and these men prefer the protection of the creator to armor, but they still need good clothes. Amazing wrestlers and dodgers, wield the blessing of purity (Kill undead)

T3 - Priests
-Focusing on the divine rather than the martial, these men still retain their ability to fight with hand and foot. The just need more bling to power their magics. Healers, become very important early game if you are in the 'blight' (evil biomes)

T4 - High Priest (prayer)
-Perform Holy Rituals. Perhaps purifying the corrupt and weak. Need ideas for this: Burn the land (To kill evil plants), resurrect the dead (not evil though; yes you still need a sacrifice, but this is a high priest not a vulgur necromancer, his knowledge is a gift of meph)

T4 - Holy Smith (sorcery)
-Finally, after ages of training they are ready to use the Forges of...Meph...to create armors for their divine champions

T3 - Squire
-Basic soldier, requires armor, but doesn't need to be blessed

T4 - Knight
-Requires finer things. At least one blessed piece (Perhaps he instantly becomes attached? So choose well, if you think he will rise in rank. If it isn't masterwork...)

T5 - Paladin
-Everything must be blessed. Becomes attached to blessed things? At least one masterwork required (But wait...)
-Lay Hands (once every full moon heal. Touch, good for in combat)

T6 - High Lord of Light (Sorcery, Prayer, and Combat skills maxed'ish)
-Masterwork and blessed both required. Doesn't spawn, so you need to raise him up through the ranks. Watch his emotions, but he can slaughter every Forgotten beast you have ever faced, at the same time. A razors edge, ready to tantrum and ready to slaughter. !Fun! (Have you ever heard the old saying, "Don't handcuff yourself to a mad man?")

Again, all buildings will focus on the use and progression of these characters. Workers will be needed, but I like the idea of these guys using slaves...It is a divine mercy...

The value of their gear quickly becomes a problem. Blessed pieces will be INCREDIBLY valuable (Think shardblades - see Knights Radiant). So you will have non-masterwork, blessed gear lying around. You cannot use them (Unless your desperate, if a knight uses it don't let him become a paladin) and you cannot trade them, they are holy relics...Get ready for some epic battles...

Just an idea, no clue as to how some of it will work, and there will be a lot of copying and pasting involved ;) Might focus on the four good races at first...hehehe...A gnome paladin...So awesome...

The biggest challenge in my mind is the gear, as I WANT the gear requirements to be super strict. It will be hilariously !fun! that way. I have a plan how to accomplish most of this, but this is a far bigger project than anything I have ever finished...

Edit 1: The unworthy must never touch the divine. Give a blessed item to the wrong person and anger every T4, 5, and 6 you have in the place. Same goes for thefts, but then its everything above T0....

Edit 2: Totally forgot this part. The faction will focus on purifying the 'blight' of evil biomes. I would love this war with nature (well, evil nature). The faction will be well suited to survive in evil biomes, but will face constant threat. I intend to utilize a system that allows dead evil creatures and purified lands (Off and on map) into writs of protect = supplies from caravans. Also a caravan escort system, as caravan's are your source to the outside world. The mechanics of this faction should feel like an army on campaign. With migrants being recruits, and caravan's the supplies. If you are lucky you may eventually have a 'farm'. That's what those seeds are for?

Mechanics go like this: Kill evil = writs of protection = armor, food, ale, etc from caravans = better soldiers = better conquests = secured caravan routes (more caravans) = MORE BATTLE.

Sounds kind of interesting. Having an alliance faction of dwarves, elves, humans, and gnomes would be pretty cool, even without the other stuff. Each race (caste) would have different benefits and preferences (dwarves are skilled miners/smiths and need booze, elves are fast and good dodgers but relatively weak physically, etc). You could buy race specific techs from a caravan or a specific tech workshop (seismic telegraph again?). Having it focused on combat would be especially cool, and make it a bit more unique so it isn't just a clusterf*** of all 3/4 race's features mixed together. Maybe if they were constantly at war with the evil factions instead of just being default hostile? It's worth some thinking.

Exactly, just read your post. In an alliance situation. You could even do internal politics more actively. If you have an alliance, do you dare cut down trees? Do the elves start tantrumming? Oh the endless possibilities of !fun!

This sounds like the best thing ever to happen since masterwork was made. I am SO in on this. I will help in any way possible should you require it. Paladins are literally my favourite thing in the world. What about having a trigger where the gods (and other races) lose faith in the light citadel if they feel the holy champions are falling too regularly?

If only we could get them to use a pistol in one hand and a sword in the other, THAT would be awesome.

*bonus !fun! idea* crusades. like the raiding/expeditions, they require gold, weapons, armour and cloth (for flags), maybe even a giant craftable idol/cross. these would bring great rewards if they succeed.

*bonus bonus !fun!* paladins that have turned to the darkness. Wielding cursed weapons and great power, these foul monsters will arrive to the citadel in groups of 2-6 and seek to corrupt the very centre of light.

Excellent! Soon you will join our chapter house, as an initiate of course.

Love the bonus ideas. Exactly the feel I am going for. I wonder if we can set it up so there is a chance of losing population in the process. It would burn, but a crusade needs a a great leader...and perhaps that leader can fall...in more ways than one...

Not sure about the gun though.... :'(

EDIT: Already see one thing I will leave out. Genders is going to be tricky with this many castes...

EDIT 2: Can castes be inside of castes? Don't have time to check. Was just organizing the files.

creature
race
gender
actual castes castes

Rather than one caste for each races genders caste. A lot of duplication.

They could be a single-gender race with artificial creation of civ members. The whole thing looks heavily inspired by WH40K Space Marines and Sisters of Battle, so here's my thoughts. I don't know how hard it will be to write these, but still.

40% of population are Servitors - people so ~~dumb~~ faithful that they are willing to do anything to aid the Chapter and please Creator, even the hardest, most dangerous work. They learn all skills except combat, which they learn much slower, at normal rate. Servitors do all menial labors. Weak in combat. Must be recruited from the surrounding lands by preachers (I think of this like a seasonal/yearly chance of warlock-like mephit spawning and/or workshop spawning, which require some gold for travelling expenses, a religious book and public speaking skill, the better the skill - the higher the chance). They can be upgraded to Priests.

30% of population are Priests (Monks?) - holy people who swore to bring Creator's word into the minds of all races. They recruit Servitors and heal the chapter members by ususal means - thread, cloth and soap. They do not do menial labors. They learn medical and social skills at a higher rate. They can be upgraded to Clerics or Templars.

15% of population are Clerics - basically, sorcerers who use divine magic to cleanse the wicked and purge the undead. They learn Sorcery and ranged combat skills at higher rate. They do not learn menial labor skills, but they can use magic to boost and heal nearby chapter members. Celibate.

15% of population are Templars - they are the muscle of the military force, zealous warriors seeking to purge the evil in the world. They know no fear, their faith is so strong that they are never exhausted, and they will never stop pursuing evil since they found it. They learn melee combat skills at much higher rate. Combat skill descriptions ("axe/sword/spear/hammerdwarf/lord") are "Initiate" for regular soldiers and "Templar" for master soldiers. Celibate.

A very, very small percent of population are Living Saints - chapter members who had done something so great in the eyes of the Creator that he granted them a piece of his might (maybe something vampire- or werecurse-like, but with bonuses?). They know no fear, no exhaustion, have no need to eat, drink or sleep. They inspire fellow battle brothers and grant them bonuses in combat. They can use powerful magic and wipe out large sieges single-handedly. Celibate.

Initially, there is a very, very small chance of chapter member corruption, which slowly increases as the time progresses to the max of 50% (in my vision the chance hits maximum after 50 years if non-countered, see below). A corrupted chapter member can do the following things: go berserk and spawn demons to aid him in battle or covertly spawn demons and leave or covertly spread disease and miasma and raise hostile undead, covertly murder his battle brothers, spread lies and heresy which increases corruption chance for others, randomly pull levers (imagine a gate operating lever pulled in siege time), randomly open or lock doors. The corruption chance decreases to an initial value in presense of Living Saint, or decreases in presense of non-appointed nobles, whose death for whatever reason, in turn, greatly increases the corruption chance for all chapter members on the map. Praying at a special workshop has a chance (based on praying chance, a legendary+5 prayer will guarantee the effect) of decreasing corruption chance (sorry for tautology) for all chapter members on the map.

Nobles:
Non-appointed:
Chapter Master - the civ leader. The problem here is megabeast/demon kings.
Force Commander - the general.
Inquisitor/Chief Inquisitor/Lord Inquisitor - baron/count/duke respectively. The higher the rank, the greater the corruption chance increased on death.
Appointed:
Librarian - bookkeeper and manager.
Hoardmaster - broker.
Comissar/Lord Comissar - sheriff/captain of the guard respectively.
Captain - military commander.
Sergeant - squad commander.
Aspiring Champion - champion.

A rather silly, but fundamental question: What sort of creature do you want to use? Currently you describe professions and abilities, but do you want to use humans as a basis? It sounds like it...

Kartag, I love the concept. I was mostly think witchhunters to get their mindset, not so much a w40k crossover. Although a crossover does bring a huge grin to my face. SPACE MARINES fortress is EPIC. Yes I did that, CAPS LOCK IS FOR AWESOME. I was thinking white cloaks for structure and terminology. The magic side is surprisingly not far from w40k I suppose, but that was not my intention.

Meph: Creature? I am currently building 4 creatures: humans, dwarves, elves, and 'gnomes'. Although a brief examination into the gnomes file left my head'ache'e. I have already forayed into the multispecies race design, although not to this extent. As I asked castes within castes would greatly increase design speed, but I haven't seen anything in the MW or DF files that use such a thing

[CREATURE:PALADIN]
[CASTE:DWARF]
[ALL SUB-CASTES HERE]
[CASTE:ELF]
[SAME AS DWARF]
[CASTE:HUMAN]
[ETC]

versus

[CREATURE:PALADIN]
[CASTE:DWARF INITIATE]
[CASTE:ELF INITIATE]
[CASTE:HUMAN INITIATE]

IF you are referring to animals, there will probably be none. Maybe something eventually, but it is far from the purpose. I want to create something with 4+ races working towards a common goal: Exterminate Evil. They will be a tad bit evil, because they will be brutal in their methods. So far they will be all male I think, with some adjustments to protect the world gen (I don't have any idea for that). There will be no 'main' creature. I think that is the answer. There are three right now.

You cant do multi-race forts, because a Gnome mother and a Human father will give birth to a Dwarf son and a Elf daughter, and all four of them will share the same graphics, because it depends on profession, not caste.

All male atm in my mind. It's more a comsetic thing. Technically, they are all the same race. Functionally, they will behave differently. I have done this before and am confident of results. I did a six species race at one point. Perfectly functional. No children, no problem. An easy work around however would be a nursery with one child for each 'race' present. Send someone in, run reaction, out pops race appropriate child, yes?

[CASTE:DWARF INITIATE]
[POP_RATIO:1000000000000000]
v
[CASTE:DWARVEN HIGH LORD OF LIGHT]
[POP_RATIO:1]

High lords are rare alright. So rare you will only see one if you make him. I am thinking 10 megabeasts go into the reaction, +fancy gear requirements. He is game breaking in power though. Avatar of the creator on earth kinda thing. No idea if that ratio will bug out the game, never no till you try though. I would like the occasional semi-evil race member showing up as an initiate the Uruk paladin example.

Just realized I left out start up somehow. Might as well add'em in. I was planning on 2 monks to 5 initiates as the starting ratio. The problem is of course housing. I need something to work for early stages. Late game would involve making blessed stones or timber for your holy citadel. Maybe tents would be the early mechanic. I want these guys to function kinda like kobolds merged with warlocks. No digging at all, dumped into a place to survive or perish. Your currency is death. Civilizations pay you to kill off evil, protecting them. So that is what you do. I am thinking a purifier to burn corpses, that leads to a writ. You then have to wait for caravans to bring you supplies. I think caravans are an interesting mechanic, but I never use them in an unmodified game. So that is part of it. You have to negotiate, barter discuss, etc. Actually plan out what resources you will need from the different kingdoms. Without caravans you will die. Bring in caravans.

Maybe as you grow, you can draw in new races, leading to more initiates arriving every year. This will work best in an evil biome, but there you will need to move fast to protect your soldiers from the weather. However, undead are hated by all living, and translate to a valuable resource. Purifying undead is so profitable, some unsavory Paladins trap necromancers and use them to spawn hordes of undead. A mafia protection money gambit.

Regardless, caravan and migrants are the lifeblood of your fort, although camp is a better word I think. It isn't a place for children, but rather divine soldiers. You will not need workshops to survive, but will use workshops to advance your initiates into stronger members. This is where I feel ideas will help. I have no idea about workshops, but will want something. This wont be about building, initially, but battle and trade.

Thanks for the great questions and comments btw! I will try and keep involved, but this is my last evening of the weekend.

[POP_RATIO:1000000000000000] => This is too high, the game wont accept numbers that large.

Still, my question remains: How do you do childbirth and graphics?

graphics are not my thing. I am an ascii man myself.

Child birth will be artificial. All members of this 'race' will be male, except for a tiny number. Too small to encounter. This female 'member' will functionaly be invisible during a fort game, providing the migrants, or initiates to fuel your army. She will have a high brithrate: 10-30 kids. They will be messed up from a legacy perspective, but I never touch that so I always forget. It will function like a hive and queen mechanic.

The fort size will probably never go over 100, btw. No children will ever be born inside the fort walls. Does that create problems in super old forts? I have never gone that far into the game. I prefer small little outposts to massive civilizations. The 'mother' will be a concept, if people deem it necessary. She will be the wife of the creator, immortal, unmoving, and gives 'birth' to her children. Philosophically speaking we are all children of the creator, and every initiate is a child of the creator (philosophically). I hadn't given that much thought, just ~~BS'ing~~planning a 'reason' for her to exist in game. She should never be part of a fort though. Should work smoothly.

Is there a problem? Could you give me more specific questions? Also what is the highest pop_ratio the game accepts?

Edit: Thats even better than i thought. The mother is a statue, inanimate and lifeless. Functionally she would be like the warlock pylon I believe. However, she will occasionally give birth to initiates. It is a philosophical birth however, as the initiates travel across the world to receive the divine blessing of the mother. It is the origins of their power. BRILLIANT!

Playng "offensive" in Fort mode is already hard, and there is a distinct possibility the Force Invasion dfhack scripts won't work in 40.xx. But the Paladins with good stats and metals and morale/discipline would make nice challenging late-game invaders for Orc, Warlock and Succubus forts.

That settles it! Filthy orc scum! You dare speak their names in my presence! You better pray you do not face a High Lord of the Light, less he burn your filthy hovels into ash! >:(

It would be fun, wouldn't it.

You'd need to make the more powerful castes more common for that though. I wonder, if an entity position has specific caste requirements, will Armok wring one of that caste out of his beard every time during worldgen to fill that position?

Balance is a long way away. I think its safe to say this is more drawing board than alpha atm ;)
I would really want the ultimate one to be REALLY rare though. Paladins as I envision them would scare the crap out'a myself. These guys would be pretty darn legendary, and equipped in some of the best gear, in the world. I would guess traps to be ineffective, but I hadn't thought about it.

You can't make single gendered races. If they have no in-game way to breed, they will all die in world generation.

Also, while you don't play with graphics, many people do, and you're also making this mod for them, not only yourself. You have to think about these things. An idea for this would be limiting castes to certain jobs (only the dwarf caste can mine, so the tileset will be a dwarf; only humans can be warrior with swords or mace, so the tileset wil be human, etc), though I dont know how feasible this is to program and I guess it could reeeeeeally break the game in you embarked without one of the castes...

Quote from: Sagus on September 18, 2014, 01:54:10 pm

You can't make single gendered races. If they have no in-game way to breed, they will all die in world generation.

Also, while you don't play with graphics, many people do, and you're also making this mod for them, not only yourself. You have to think about these things. An idea for this would be limiting castes to certain jobs (only the dwarf caste can mine, so the tileset will be a dwarf; only humans can be warrior with swords or mace, so the tileset wil be human, etc), though I dont know how feasible this is to program and I guess it could reeeeeeally break the game in you embarked without one of the castes...

It doesnt quite work, I tried that in Warlock mode. Nobles override the profession graphics, and soldier types do too. That means you also need to restrict those. Migrants ignore the skills they can and can not learn, and arrive even with skills that cant be learned, while spawned civ members, regardless of skills, will always show the default "peasant" sprite at first. There is also only 1 sprite for babies, 1 for children and 1 for ghosts. I worked around a lot of that by making Warlock peasants hooded figures, so you dont know whats under it (skeleton, ghoul or warlock), and have no babies/children in the first place. And no migrants, besides the first 2 hardcoded waves.

It's sad, but that's one of the many limitations of modding this game.

You can either change your ideas or go for really convoluted workarounds, and that really shuts down quite a few nice ideas over the years.

The first time I really heard about the civ limitations was when people tried to make the goblins into a playable race with the DF canon of abducting babies and making them integral part of their civilization.
It often ended in all kind of messes, some went as far as script in order to only allow marriage between the same race, and to pseudo hard code children, among other things.

But even then, and no matter what graphics you use, it becomes near impossible to distinguish the various races you have at a glance, and unless you rename everyone, you can't tell who is what from most menus either.

It somewhat works for undying races (like the warlocks), but even then, it means forcing a lot of limitations on the player (like X caste can only learn Y and Z skills).

So, while I'd love to see the goblins or an other similar race as playable, I think you would end up putting way too many limitations everywhere that it would become a chore to play, especially with the random embark teams ("yay, I can't get any digging experience because I got no digger from the starting team, it's going to take ages to dig the fort").

Wow, ok, there is some vehemence about the whole race thing. I can work up a quick model for you guys. The graphics are important, yes, and I would point out some cool stuff has recently been done there. That's not my thing. Going to use kobolds for an example, hope thats ok. Just going to borrow some stuff to demonstrate the idea.

I also would point out, I was just trying to present a new idea. I am pretty busy, and was just hoping to build creativity. Any to churn out an example now.

I personally do not want alliances and morally absolute races.

We can remedy your folly. *draws holy sword of fire*

OH and here is an example. No idea if it works, kinda in a hurry here.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

As I said, it's mostly cosmetic. I hurried this out, and am sure there are some bugs in there, but its probably something obvious like lungs so...

Very puzzled by everyones response. I think this is so simple its not funny. Graphics will be easy. (see - white cloaks - wheel of time) If you want a quick and dirty fix, kinda like the warlocks I suppose. I dislike the one race does this, and another does that. The reason is being it can still be overridden by the player in game, so it's still cosmetic. A uniform goes a long way to hiding the difference between humans and elves. Attitude of the races creates the fun. Create a dwarf only squad for underground combat. Or prepare holy lanterns and don't pay any heed to the problem at all. Don't cut down trees (There are elves in this room!) or you will enrage your elven members. This works, because you are not supposed to be there to mine or cut tree, but to hunt evil.

The problem I am curious about is the nobles. I haven't touched that stuff in my editing. I prefer genetics, much more fun imo. Can you restrict quality and type of gear for nobles, and have that be the tantrum's edge in their minds. I think that will be fun!

Puts 'pisskop' in chains. To teach him the error and corruption of his ways. ;)

I guess all that's left to say is "have fun", and I'll be waiting to see what comes from this, if it suits my tastes as a race or if it's too convoluted for me.
Not like I'm the only one anyway, and if the race plays well and is not too complicated, you'll get players.

It should be very simple, maybe even too simple. There will be almost no industry, just fighting. FPS and clutter are big concerns imo. You will manufacture a little, but just a tiny bit. Eventually you can start a few small supplemental industries, but it should be optional. The real choices are, fight or fight?

The genetics I am not worried about. Althrough workshop reactions and the gear restrictions are outside my scope. I was really expecting some experienced modder to come along and say, "I have got this little noob. Good idea, now sit down and watch a master work."

I was still gonna do it myself, but at my own pace, just for fun. *Shrugs* Now it seems to be a challenge. Makes me want to finish today, but I don't think I will have the time for that. :D

This seems more like a "survival mode" than a "good race" civilization. Are you gonna force constant invasions with DF Hack or something?

I assume you'll be removing their basic necessities as well, since they won't be farming or anything, right?

I intend for you to become established, but the first years will be a bit of a survival mode, yes. you will build temples, etc. I won't hack df the gear they make is beyond value. one piece of blessed junk will draw sieges like honey on butter. you will be able to attract sieges before end of year one. I assume that df hasn't changed since I succeeded in making a spawn free golden bricks reaction a couple of years ago. sieges came at you so fast.... he he

there will be balance in it, but that assumes I keep it the same way. still haven't heard anyone comment about the equipment version of nobles, so it's either incredibly easy or'impossible'. I have two ideas if it is the later. one decent, one mediocre. did a bit of work on it this morning, and created a race of boulder crabs some how. he he the fun is already beginning. pretty sure it's a problem in the entity file. race already works in the arena, but that doesn't say much :)

edit: honey on butter? how did that happen?

edit 2: the three races plus the mother function properly in the arena, not the boulder crabs. irony is I started modding to create a functional insect fort, and gave up (to little end game). now the d#mn thing falls in my lap. feels like a error response built into the game, I assume someone has encountered it.

Quote from: taldarus on September 19, 2014, 01:32:36 am

still haven't heard anyone comment about the equipment version of nobles, so it's either incredibly easy or'impossible'.

http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2014:Position_token
tells you what you can do with entity positions (nobles).

cool, semi helpful. I noticed it mentioned weapon racks etc. is there any more specific details, or will I just have to muddle through? not trying to be difficult, just killing time omw to work, and hard to use a phone for this stuff.

in detail, I notice there are furniture requirements, but isn't there also quality as well, I just see quantity.. I know there are quality requirements though. I can't remember if they include clothes and furniture

this leads me to plan 3, creating workshops that spawn the gear. a holy shrine, and the warrior goes to pray before battle. clunky and hard to design, anyone try that? I know warlocks do it, but obviously I am wanting to tie a workshop directly to a nobles happiness... may have to scrap the idea, but I really need a balance point for inane OP holy relics of destruction.

There are no quality or cloth requirements, literally everything there is to know is on that wiki page. You have a value requirement for rooms though, also on that page.

Instead of an alliance of races, why not make them angelic? There are now angels in 40.xx, these Paladins could be some weaker, more earthly form of them, like what succubi are compared to HFS demons. Worker caste would be almost human, but still stronger so they are valid threats as part of invader armies. Soldier castes would become bigger, faster, stronger, with more interactions and immunities the further you go up the power ladder. Since Divine Metals are procedurally generated, I'm not sure they could be used in a civ... but it's worth some investigation, if the metal they bring is between steel and adamantine in quality, they will be best friends or more honored enemies.

Also bear in mind that last I checked, dwarves, elves, gnomes and humans aren't [GOOD]. They are neutral at best. Centaurs were the only [GOOD] civilized race in 5.10, not sure how much it changed. Dwarf, gnome and human players should start as friendlies (barring worldgen wars over conflicting ethics, but those should be rare, you don't want 4 squads of divine metal wearing supersoldiers coming for you in year 2) but they should have the option of killing the Paladin diplomat to provoke ~~Paladinite Christmas~~ divine retribution.

If you want an alliance of races, maybe make a conversion process similar to the Succubi?

But to be honest, I'd rather have paladins as an extension of the human game than as a new race in its own right. A good race featuring another species, though, could be interesting.

How about this idea:

Grigori, a race of angelic beings who descended into the world in order to guide it. They have access to strange and advanced technology and are very powerful physically, but they are vulnerable to corruption because they are unfamiliar with the temptations of the material body. Corrupted Grigori either devolve into or produce Nephilim (possibly by altering local wildlife or civilized beings), powerful monsters that can be tamed but are not under your direct control and can potentially rebel or spread their corruption if not destroyed.

I don't really care about the alliance aspect. (Although i will still do it on my own - the challenge and all :))

A holy race aspect is more what I was driving. I would point out A LOT of positive response could stem just out of w40k. So perhaps a page out of that book?

Tirion - I didn't know that there was a angel or divine metals in 40.xx I honestly am sticking with MW - DF and wont touch updates with out it. Found MW 2 years ago, and haven't played without since, and no regrets. I personally like your idea, relatively the same if you take out the alliance aspect.

IndigoFenix - I am less interested in your idea, but that is because I want an anti-corruption race. I mean a 'purity' in the world that is abrasive, being so stinking good they don't really get along well with anyone. (But you need them to keep the evil at bay. You do want the evil contained *eyes narrow suspiciously* Don't you?) I do know that the w40k dynamic of Space Marines v Chaos SM is also appealing as well. I have to admit I had toyed with idea in my head today. A race that can swing one way or the other would be really freaking awesome to play. So I must tip the hat to you there. (But that is kinda the norm in a way for df. Let's be honest who hasn't turned their boisterous dwarves into crazed cultists with blood alters and dark rituals of death....Screw it do it again! Blood to the Blood God! Skulls for the Sku...Ahem *Goes and builds a thousand diamond studded, golden temples of Slaanesh, and then lies down*)

Another man said something along these lines, "The difference between technology and magic is understanding (versus mystery). If you wan't to call it 'technology' be my guest. I will call it divine intervention myself ;)

I would just want to point out that 0% tolerance, super goody goody guys are almost evil. (Plus the never been done before aspect) I like the idea of that. So good it feels coldly evil (Oh! A blue flame motif... Cold Fire...Chilly yet it burns...)

Quote from: taldarus on September 19, 2014, 03:27:18 am

cool, semi helpful. I noticed it mentioned weapon racks etc. is there any more specific details, or will I just have to muddle through? not trying to be difficult, just killing time omw to work, and hard to use a phone for this stuff.

in detail, I notice there are furniture requirements, but isn't there also quality as well, I just see quantity.. I know there are quality requirements though. I can't remember if they include clothes and furniture

The wiki is usually comprehensive, except for a few moments after a new version release. There are people who use some kind of black magic to extract all off the tokens that the raw parser can understand and then the whole population of modders more or less exhaustively test and put any new info they discover in the wiki. With >99% confidence if anything (like item quality requirement for nobles) doesn't appear in the wiki, it doesn't exist as something you can do in raw-files-only modding.

And that's when you go to hunt for dfhack scripts, right?

Well, yes and no. DFHack has a lot of tools that extend what you can do, and it is amazing, but (not being a professional programmer, and not intending to delve too deeply into writing or debugging scripts) i try to use it very selectively. IMO is better to sort of browse and learn what is already possible in raw modding alone and come up with creative solutions, and when needed browse what is already stable developed and sort of mature in DFHack and use that. If you're a relative newbie and the core idea of your mod requires DFHack scripts that don't exist yet, you've got a big project ahead of you :)

Quote from: taldarus on September 19, 2014, 08:10:40 am

I would just want to point out that 0% tolerance, super goody goody guys are almost evil. (Plus the never been done before aspect) I like the idea of that. So good it feels coldly evil (Oh! A blue flame motif... Cold Fire...Chilly yet it burns...)

It's yet another evil race, then :P

Because seriously. When the title mentioned a "good" race, I thought it'd be a civilisation that focused on, I dunno, healing, using magic to make invaders become non-agressive and leave, eat only vegetables so they don't harm animals, etc, which actually could be an interesting change of pace. Other than killing "evil" races, there's nothing "good" about this civilisation, specially from the way you describe them. I mean I could just mod the game to make Warlocks and Succubus and Orcs not be allies if I want Evil vs Evil, and if I just want to slaughter a bunch of enemies I just mess around on Arena.

I feel that so far this really doesn't have anything interesting going for it, but since it's early in development maybe some different features to make the civ more unique will appear later.

It seems heavily warhammer inspired, which does not have any good races. Everyone is a bloody fanatic bend on killing everyone else.

Quote from: Meph on September 19, 2014, 01:32:25 pm

It seems heavily warhammer inspired, which does not have any good races. Everyone is a bloody fanatic bend on killing everyone else.

I dunno man the Tyranids are pretty cool. They are just hungry. It's not their fault everything is made of tasty.

Anyway, yeah, the title of the thread is pretty misleading, 'tis what I'm saying. This is not a "good" civ at all.

Sagus, I like what you suggest. I am not convinced my idea is perfect. I do want it to feel good. That is why I feedback is helpful. See it seems you want magic buffed elf, tree huggers :P

The title was supposed to be a bit missleading. What I envision does come off as heavily w40k sounding, but it really wasn't my idea. I just wanted to expand on the paladin mechanic, and I tried to envision what that would look like.

It also heavily depends on your perspective of the world. What is good? We could spend decades debating it. To be clear I find your concept and description to be a bit 'abrasive'. Those elitist, people loving hippies think they are better cause they don't need weapons... So I believe that fits the requirement :)

Other people want crusades and battles with demons. Where is the balance point? Can we get both to work in the same faction? Ie the bloodthirsty (my interpretation) battle loving ones are actually the corrupted or tainted ones. Having giving into the influence of hidden darkness within their number? Where as the 'pure' refrain from touching even a sword, and refuse to harm anyone. That sounds really cool, but I fear a lot of cage traps in that future...

I myself am Chaotic Neutral on the D&D scale. I seldom find there to be anything universally good. IE it always improves everyones way of life. This influences my persepective. So how would you explain a seige between my 'paladins' and a 'succubus' invasion? If they cause the succubus to no longer desire hurting creatures, are they still succubi? It doesn't seem like it to me. So would they join your fort like IndigoFenix suggested? So how is that different?

Thanks for the awesome feedback!

This is DF, neither Warhammer nor D&D. Good are unicorns and elves and feather trees and golden salve. ;)

I wasn't actually thinking "tree hugging elitists elves", I was thinking more "non-agressive humble creatures that prefer to keep to themselves and avoid conflict". Self-defense bloodshed would be pretty difficult to avoid in the game, but to incentivize players to use non-lethal methods, maybe they would be very physically weak and have piss poor armor and no weapons. Maybe, if possible, they'd get very bad thoughts from seeing any kind of carnage at all. I don't know if temper tantrums are hard-coded, but if possible, if they stay too long in the "miserable" state they could get that "depressed" state that a civ member gets when they fail to make an artifact (yet another incentive to avoid bloodshed; too much of it would make people in your fort just wither and die).

To survive invasions, one could perhaps use pylons that release a gas with a syndrome that makes any hostile invader become peaceful or just leave (don't know how feasible this is to program; maybe make them "vanish", saying that the pylons transported them to their homes?). These pylons could be more mid to late game, requiring energy and rarer materials.

To avoid early sieges, other than traditional walls perhaps the creatures would be able to build early temples where a prayer would send the attacking force away, the rate of success depending on how skilled the creature praying is at spellcraft. Maybe the creatures themselves would be able to inflict syndromes that make the affected enemies fall sleep, so as to buy time for the spellcaster to invoke the "send invaders away" spell sucessfully.

I would make them have NOEAT, so they wouldn't need to hunt and harm animals. The only sustenance they'd need would be drinks (maybe make them alcohol dependant so they have to farm for something else other than cloth). I'd make them at peace with wildlife too, to avoid problems with agressive animals.

What else.... maybe they can't dig very well (like kobolds), but they have workshops that allow them to synthesize gems and a special block material (as strong as, say, granite) for crafting and building walls. Farming could actually be used for this; certain plants can be synthesized into certain gems, which in turn fuel their magic. A nice 3-stage industry.

Maybe there could be a very late game workshop that can turn invasions on and off, like a giant cloakng spell or something (basically an actual "win" condition for them, which would take a looot of effort to achieve).

Pets would be all about milking and shearing. No hunt or war trainable, of course.

As for WHAT, exactly, this race could be, physically wise, I was thinking on just making a monster up. Some small, physically frail beings. I'm a big fan of non-traditional designs for sentient races (see my own creature raw in my signature, for instance), so I'd like to make them weird looking. As I wrote this I kinda envisioned them as having white, thin, tailed and hunched humanoid bodies with digitigrade feet, long arms and hands, and large diplocaulus (http://www.rankopedia.com/CandidatePix/108618.gif) heads. Maybe the size of kobolds or slightly larger/smaller.

...you know, I'm actually kinda fond of this idea. I might try my hand at doing something like them one of these days, if you'd rather go another route with your own race.

To be fair, no faction in either of the warhammer worlds can be considered "good" anyway, as they all basically aim do dominate and destroy everything that is not themselves.

I know that one could argue that "good" is for the winner to decide, or whatever like that, but I personally feel that the "good" only applies to those that help others.

I think this race isn't really fitting all that well in MDF, because there is no white vs black morality, warring against each other here, and more of a fight for survival, for all the races, even the demonic ones.
But, well, apart from us players, it's really up to Meph to decide whether or not to include what we can present him with, and if the race ends up being playable and fun, who knows, right?

Also, as Sagus says, it might be way more challenging to have a race that's against the very principle of fighting, even for survival, that would resort to various tricks and magicks to demotivate the assailants and beasts, being masters of illusions and healing.

geh phone call deleted whole message. summarized form.

I am sharing ideas here. I would love to participate, but I am trying to help masterwork and df two things I love. I doubt I will be able to actively participate in the design, because of time zone and work. I will try and create the first multi race faction, and maybe survival mode. is a personal thing. told it can't be done, now I have to do it ;)

I am good at design and problem solving. my point was masterwork has a decided lack of 'good guys'. in many ways df is not intended to play nice, making a fun challenge and potentially unique gameplay.

I would rather see my ideas given form then be imaginary.... well.... less imaginary
...

I see another four potential races:
1-sudo paladin angel race
2-Teletubbies (LOL, can't resist the horror! of the elite unit is Barney! he dances and the enemies drop weapons and play with him)
3 -leprechauns (your suggestion)
4 - 40k version of good.

gotta go.

edit: can't stop laughing about Teletubbies and Barney. screw everything else. I shall conquer the world, purple dinosaur style!

Edit2: They can be violent http://phineasandferb.wikia.com/wiki/Meap .They shall strike down the world with gumdrop swords and pepermint battle staves....Someone stop me, please...

Edit3: Sagus - Your guys could still be strong, they just break down emotionally when they kill. Their is a story about something like that. They are docile and gentle, but powerful. When they kill, however, something inside of them may break. Perhaps a modifier that MAY cause them to become a 'hidden' time bomb inside of your colony. So you have soldiers, but always keep them isolated, ready to explode. Maybe the explosion doesn't hurt any other members of society, so you have a 'hospital' where the veteran soldiers live out their damaged lives.

Quote from: taldarus on September 19, 2014, 10:07:27 pm

my point was masterwork has a decided lack of 'good guys'.

By my count MW has already about 5 playable civs more 'good' than these paladins :D (not that there's anything wrong with that)

Quote from: taldarus on September 19, 2014, 10:07:27 pm

I am good at design
...
2-Teletubbies

8)

I can't stop laughing...

Boatmurdered Elephants = Teletubbies...

Engraved on the wall is a cuddly teletubby, eating a dwarf covered in the blood of dwarves...

I think a combat-heavy good civ could be plausible. Maybe a sort of holy-warrior order devoted to honoring the dead and reversing the effects of necromancy? Like taking souls to a temple to "redeem" for a holy wish or favor or whatever to make blessings with. Further reactions would be things like breaking down dreadnought and soulgems to free the trapped souls inside in exchange for more wishes. Maybe include a "Sacred Burial Ground" that functions as a place to dump unbutcherable bodyparts while maybe generating a wish in return.

For added fun you could add in some secret FUN like

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I don't think that will be an issue. As I said

Quote

1-sudo paladin angel race
2-Teletubbies (LOL, can't resist the horror! of the elite unit is Barney! he dances and the enemies drop weapons and play with him)
3 -leprechauns (your suggestion)
4 - 40k version of good.

Both number 1 and four are similar in idea to what you are looking for. The hidden fun has been mentioned by several people, and as I want to play this, I think I am willing to create it. Hopefully, it would be able to blend with masterwork, but I think meph is more looking for a teletubby type race :P

Quote from: Meph on September 19, 2014, 06:03:39 pm

Good are unicorns and elves and feather trees and golden salve.

Ideally, I would like others to participate. My guess is Sagus will be creating number 3. So the only one in question is number 4. It's a little too crossover for me, so i probably shall not. This is still early storyboard though. I hadn't thought of the divine half-angel aspect, and really think that would work well. If people think angels are not combat ready, then they need to google angel...

What kind of workshop interactions would people be looking for? What kind of industries etc? Workshops are not my thing at all... I think Sagus has some good ideas there, but I think he is slipping off to make his own thing right now... :)

EDIT: Looking up on angels at all. Apparently they are an adventure thing. Never touch that either...

I once made a race called Murpets. They were underground, fuzzy muppet-ish creatures that came in every possible color, basically Fraggles. They had no internal organs so they were really basically impossible to kill without bladed weapons, but were also too soft to do much damage in combat. I didn't have any serious gameplay ideas for them though, they were designed as a joke subterranean tribal civ.

Ok, really want to see your murpets. It sounds awesome. Make harmless everything. So how do you stop invasions... :'(
From a genetics code side, how did you effect their strength (assuming you didn't use the attributes)? You made them soft, altered the skin tissue file? Or did you use a bronze colossus and just swap bronze out for something soft... *scratchs head* something soft.... Yeah got no clue... Sounds like it was fun!

Note: I really dislike using the attributes, as they make modding creatures lame. Is there a way to influence physical strength via muscle tissue? I had something the size of a dog that could pick up elephants, but there was something that would always break in the process. Just curious

However, I must focus. I looked up Hidden Upstairs Fun (HuF's?), they are kinda spoilers apparently. Kinda monstrous in appearance however. Not sure how I feel about that, nor how I should work the divine armor aspect. The armor is close to my 'blessed' armor idea. I assume no one has messed with the [divine] token?

I actually made a race that was extremely amorphous, but I don't know where my race USB is. The race would work fairly well with this one, if we go monstrous angel. I assume people use castes to create a variety of 'shapes', it's how I did it. I would prefer a percentage modifier... 35% 3 arms kinda thing. I am guessing thats not there.

EDIT: L'Meire - The issue we are primarily snagging on is this. What you are describing is fairly similar to an evil race.

Do the take the souls of the dead? Yes.
Do they use the souls to power reactions? Yes.
Do they use corpses to as their main resource? Yes.

Go play warlocks, but make them good. I like the concept of sudo-paladins A LOT, but I am looking for a process where they avoid corpses as a resources also any other resource for that matter. A form of divine intervention kinda thing is fun, but that starts going the direction of warlocks and such. I liked my idea of using caravans as your only resource, but no one else seemed to be interested. It could make the game brutally hard. It would also leave room for doubt in the minds of people. Are these men REALLY divine? Do they really serve ....? They need us to send them food and armor, thats not very divine.. *whispered* His sword cuts through steel like it was butter... *everyone shivers* Sounds fun to me... They would have magic, but I would want something interesting (not corpses) to power it. Just thought of using relics. Blessed items to fuel reactions could work...

I was thinking more along the lines of "guiding the souls to heaven and for a small chance of getting favor with the divines for my selflessness" than "force the souls into my shiny new sword to get more souls to force into more shiny swords". And the Burial Ground was suggested as more of a replacement for the crematory- minus any ash you would get from it because burning the dead when they should be properly buried is just pointlessly mean.

What I'm getting at is that so far only the gnomes respect dead members of other civilizations, (Maybe, I have a hard time with minecarts and rarely get far with them.) and even they treat their own dead as a mild inconvenience compared to how they treat giant insects.

Dwarves practice ritual sapient sacrifice and desecrate corpses to make bloodsteel, Elves kill people for picking flowers and desecrate corpses for lunch, Humans trade with literally everyone which indicates that they'll condone anything as long as it makes them money, plus they might actually raise the dead after trading with Warlocks- none of the existing "good guys" seem to have any problems with supposedly "evil" activities. Which means that there's an open niche besides total pacifism for an approach to killing lots of things while still rightfully claiming to be "gooder than good".

If you drop the whole "actively using souls instead of letting them wither away" (Which I guess could be interpreted as a sort of "moving on" by itself), I can see angel/paladins storming a warlock tower with the specific intention of freeing the trapped souls within their phylacteries, dreadnought, and minions. Sort of like a much more justified version of the RL Spanish invasion of the Yucatan: find site filled with rich, cannibalistic cultists and the "evil" objects they use to commit atrocities > kill cultists for their atrocities > destroy "evil" objects on principle/to ensure a spot for themselves in heaven > take back a hefty profit for a job well done.

You know, gameplay speaks more than background informations.

No matter how you spin it, your gameplay seems to be very similar to what is usually seen as an evil race (killing all that moves, using the soul of the fallen).

All we are saying is that putting a backstory of serving a god rather than a devil doesn't make a race being on the "good" side.

In theory, no race in DF is really "good", even the elves have a lot of story of massacre and eating corpses in their stories, and there is no real "bad" or "evil", when even demons can lead other civilizations to hundreds of years of actual prosperity.
I personally like it a lot, because it contrasts a lot with most of the fantasy of good vs evil black and white worlds.

You will note that the races the least inclined to the evil ways are called 'civilized', not 'good'.

By the way, if we follow your reasoning, shouldn't other groups of those "paladins" go after other groups of paladins too?
I mean, they are committing atrocities all around the world, killing entire population they themselves labelled as "evil", to loot their wealth.

Well, we are all going around, because no matter how you spin it, a civilization based on mass murder can't qualify as "good" for at least some of us, "for greater good" and "fighting evil" are something that's been used a lot, in our History, to massacre innocent people and non combatants.
Some of the worst atrocities around the globe have been (and still are) in the name of "god" (or whatever name it has), to punish evil.
Your example of the Spanish is pretty much what I mean too, greedy people manipulate others in the name of "good" to enact some of the worst acts the human race is able to commit.

As you can probably tell, I don't really like people that try to justify killing by posing as saviors or good people, and I'd rather not have it in a game, unless it is actually justified to have such things.
In the end, I'll just do like I did for the banshee (and probably the wasps, when they come around, for other reasons), which is simply disable them entirely.

Just a thing, no matter how you intend to do things, you should change the title to reflect that it's more about fanatics, or "crusaders" if you prefer that term, than "good race", because it seems that I'm not the only one to be mislead, ensuing a conversation that don't actually help anyone in the end, right?

Fair enough, I've always played DF for the stories myself, but I can see why most would rather play a game for the game. Also, I never meant to imply that killing people could somehow be morally justified IRL; I just figured Spanish colonialism fit with the "Crusades-y" feel of the race that taldarus seemed to be trying to establish for the first two pages or so.

My idea for a good race was using IndigoFenix exile/release into the wilds script, and triggering it on entire invasions. Siege comes, you "negotiate with/charm" them, all hostiles turn friendly and leave the map after a while, together with the next caravan.

Druidism and interactions are used to make peace with the wildlife.

In short, you get a civ that can handle animals, monsters and sieges without violence.

Handling the dangers of the world without violence? Perhaps you guys should make an abbey with monks?
You know...Making wine, writing books, sheltering orphans, and when some bad guys show up, they lock up their monastery and pray to the Divines for protection. No violence, and some interesting (at least for a while) gameplay.

wow looks like things got interesting today... (Non-Disclosure: I AM REALLY TIRED< just finished an 11 hour work day...)

Slay mithos... I agree with you, but I disagree... I would say it a bit nicer by saying what I did at the beginning. It is how many people justify there actions. I would however, from personal experience, say that most extremists are not out to get rich. That is what I am trying to say. Most often the very top of a religious zealot order has bad motives, but the ones who carry out the deeds are just zealots. They truly believe it is the right thing. I would point out to re-read my title, apparently my subtle irony is too far subtle. Although I did forget air quotes on the good and evil parts. I don't know how to do air quotes with a keyboard ;)

The spanish was not what I was trying to compare with, but it could work I suppose. I would reference prince arthas in warcraft III (apparently my better references went over peoples heads). He truly desires to protect his people from the undead, and that is a good motive. In a world with warlocks and zombies vs unicorns and feather trees. How does the 'good' hold the 'evil' at bay. It is the dividing line that must be walked by men of true valor. Personally, I would love to meet a man that defends the helpless from attrocities and horrors (evil biomes are pretty nasty), but I would never forget he is a soldier. Soldiers, no matter what cause they stand far are monsters

EG - Serenity's bad guy, if you haven't watched the movie watch it, but first watch the tv show. GO NOW. the man is a monster but he truly desires to make a better world, the sad thing is that he is wrong, as Serenity is fairly realistic. I dream of men like that in a world were there is a TRUE EVIL. As stated by the biomes description. It is a fantasy, and is intended to allow me an escape to a better world. *Cues dramatic music* A world of murpets and warlocks, fighting on fields crystaline glory. A world of dwarven drunks building enormous C(*KS, a world of.... Boatmurdered.

I truly mean no offense, but I would also ask you to consider how you come across. If something personal has happened to you because of those kinds of people, I am in the same place as you. This is not a place for such a discussion, I would think (may the moderators strike me down if I am wrong :) ) I would happily offer to commiserate in an appropriate forum, I completely disagree with the mentality IRL, as I have lost friends to such. I am readily able to chat on QQ (Although that is not common in America, is it?)

L'Meiere - I liked what you said, but am about to fall asleep....So I can't remember or scroll down..

Meph - WHERES MY MURPET/TELETUBBIES!?!?!? *CRIES*

Emporer - Go to a REAL monastery....If you want a simulated one... WOW, just WOW.

Don't worry, crazy ideas are my specialty. Expect more soon.

Murpets had a similar physiology to fluffy wamblers with a more humanoid body plan, and a little bigger than kobolds. Fur and skin, stuffed with (non-functional) fluff, with no vital organs or blood, so basically the only way to kill them was by chopping their head off (although now that pulping is a thing they should be much easier to kill with blunt weapons). No teeth or claws, and their only attacks were a flailing slap that had a low velocity modifier so it did little damage and a toothless bite attack. They usually killed by swarming and strangling their enemies (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ErefIfZTlQ0&t=2m17s) although even in groups they were usually more annoying than dangerous. They also had a lot of castes, male and female for every possible color, and their actual fur had different colors which was a stupid amount of extra work but it was kind of the whole point. They were never intended as a playable race so I don't really know how they would repel invasions, they were more of an underground easter egg than anything. Maybe they could sing really annoying songs and cause enemies to run away.

I lost the original files but recreating them wouldn't be too difficult, just tedious.

Wow, Just wrote out the perfect post. It took an hour to write, and my browser crashed....*Crawls into bed and cries*

Quote from: Meph on September 19, 2014, 01:32:25 pm

It seems heavily warhammer inspired, which does not have any good races. Everyone is a bloody fanatic bend on killing everyone else.

I think that's Warhammer 40k you're talking about. Warhammer Fantasy does have morally good races; high elves and dwarves spring to mind. They're pragmatic, chaotic good (leaning a little towards neutral in the case of the dwarves) but good nonetheless. Of course, I get your point; DF doesn't really do good/evil since you have to let the player entertain themselves by burning merchants alive for free goods, feeding citizens to vampires because that cheesemaker isn't worth a tantrumming immortal supersoldier and throwing children into the arena because they were bored.

That being said; if you want to try a good race with a heavy monastic/knightly order focus, you could have a multispecies civ (in terms of castes) and automatically run syndromes when they enter the map to sterilize them all. Make a system akin to the gnome druid system, which gives you a counter for good deeds; something considered evil lowers it. For example, killing members of specific entity types will lower the score, as will allowing children to die. Basically, the goal of such a system should be to allow you to use powerful magics (i.e. pacify a siege) for a cost of morality points, or to recruit new members (force immigration, followed by sterilization) for a cost of morality points. You then can't get complacent, because you're forced to keep doing good deeds (export charity goods, slay monsters and raiders, host wise men as they write tomes, etc) to keep your numbers from dropping.

MDF - you actually apparently stole my lost post :o

I thought about what you posted, and here would be my response. I guess what I am really interested in is trying to create a crude form of diplomacy. I don't know anything about druidism (interested, but haven't tried gnomes or humans yet), but what you are describing is what I was wanting to do with the caravans. If DFHack can do what you are suggesting, then that is perfect! Except I know nothing about dfhack...

The mechanic I am looking for is just this: Warriors (I love the battles, but little else. Ok, mega projects are really fun, but far to time consuming). I just realized it! I am looking for a way to make df light. kinda like nano fortress, but simplified!

A key part I lost in my crash is this: Souls. I never intended to use souls, but rather more like L'Meire's concept, a system that punishes you for wrongful death. As there is a defined [EVIL] in this game, these guys only gain currency or points for fighting that [EVIL]. This in turn unlocks their end game content. Super spells, epic armor and weapons, etc. It would all be balanced of course.

Picture : Slaying evil = end game material. You can farm, make clothes, dwarfy things. But all combat material is locked until later. No traps, no pets, just a few 'soldiers'. Therefore you bring things focused more on keeping your soldiers alive, to unlock better weapons. This will play best on an EVIL biome, and I want the faction to fear, but overcome the biome's influence aboveground. These are soldiers, not miners.

It is a crusader'y mechanic, but instead of the hollow lame IRL version, this has an actual 'evil' according to the tokens. Your first seven are scouts, with the main force following (Immigrations). You then set about to tame the danger's of evil. You are sponsored by races, and their support rises or falls with your progress. If you fail to kill anything in year 1, no support will follow. No support = no weapons and armor, food, defenses, peoples = death. Oh! good example of this would be X-Com! Please someone get the reference....

Anyway, you can build outside of [EVIL] biomes, and this is where more disreputable methods might be necessary. No Undead in the area....Maybe an accidental release can cause a panic, sending you more support. I see a lot of potential in creativity, always dealing with this need of support mechanic. (What happens to any monster killer, when the monster is dead?)

You can play them the honorable warriors, or more dwarfy in style.

Edit: Afraid of crashes now. Souls in more detail. I wondered if adding multiple TYPES of souls would potentially help across the board. It isn't that much of a stretch to say animals are 'lower' than sentience in value, and would [EVIL] even have souls? Perhaps differences in types could help balance the warlock faction (I only played where shamblers have souls O.o) Like mega beast souls, they create powerful reactions, but are rare. Just an idea.

The sentient species souls already are marked, [REACTION_CLASS:GREATER_SOUL].

-----

Soul-having is pretty ubiquitous:

Searching for: [EXTRA_BUTCHER_OBJECT:BY_TYPE:THOUGHT][EBO_ITEM:PLANT:NONE:PLANT_MAT:SOUL
Found 949 occurrence(s) in 57 file(s)

[EVIL] has more to do with what biome the creature lives in than its morality, so yes, i think a lot of living creatures with the [EVIL] tag will have souls. (edit ... i guess i can't think of too many non-Evil creatures that are marked for EVIL biomes. Depends what you think of the morality of crows and squigs. ;) )

But since souls are tied to THOUGHT centers, I *think* that undead will not have them in general.

But, sorry for rambling a bit, the point i really meant to make, is that there's nothing currently that differentiates a soul from an "Evil" creature nor a creature from an [EVIL] biome from any other, with the exception of some of the sentients. (SOUL_DROW, SOUL_GOBLIN, SOUL_ORC, SOUL_WARLOCK, SOUL_AUTOMATON, SOUL_FROST_GIANT, along with the civilized races and kobolds, have unique soul objects).

I don't know if your crusaders plan to consider Orcs "Evil" but they aren't [EVIL] ;)

So, I don't immediately see how you are going to keep track of Evil kills, assuming you want to keep track of monsters and etc., not just Slaver & Evil sentients. You're going to have to come up with, and implement a system.

See first post. I want an Uruk paladin. Honestly, the general response make me feel better about opening up the race choices. Do orcs like 'evil' biomes? No, then they COULD be friends....

Is there a way to simulate relationships with the different factions? So you could alter merchants and caravans that come and go? This is why I was thinking something akin to the human design, but no merchant workstalls. (To reliable, but may be necessary)

I was thinking something like this

Diplomat Office (Civilized, Slaver, Etc.)
Call for further aid (maybe controllable for race specific)
Send out Patrols (Increased chance of caravan arrival)
Membership (Guaranteed caravan and immigrants of certain number per year.

All of this would depend on a writ (certificate) of deeds done. So basically a lawyer verifies the monster was dealt with, and is dead. This allows you a bigger budget to draw on from your supporters. Still a soul I suppose, but oh well...

Actually, it would be fun, if for the defense mission, instead of being hidden. It draws the target to you. Mainly thinking of mega beasts, governments would be very thankful for the death of such a beast I think.

While this faction is monk/knight'ish I think they are more mercenary than that. Obviously a DF twist would be helpful. X-COM really does summarize the gameplay I am wanting. However, I do want something to balance the powerful weapons better. Sieges are one a start, but that just brings fun. I would like a code of honor or diety to guide their government. Whether they follow it or take less honorable path's is up to the player.

I am wobbling between an alliance and just creating a single race version, thoughts? I really like the alliance idea, but posses problems. Almost my weekend so

Maybe make them based on a single race for the general population but add a unit-spawning reaction to "recruit" exceptionally heroic members from other friendly races (extremely rare castes) using writs as currency- similar to the Deon's Tavern in Human mode.

FWIW one of the orcish temples already sponsors an order of lay dead-hunters (the order of the Morning Star, at Sun and Stars orrery, with blessed maces and blunt-tipped javelins). On the other hand the temple also dabbles in blood magic which may not sit quite right with more urbane Human paladins. On the other other hand refilling an undead with blood/pain/fear/thoughts makes it nice and killable again so it depends what your ultimate priorities are ;)

* also, immortals tend to become liches eventually right? So really, taking out those elves preemptively was a service to the order too...

Aside: I don't know why you are worried that references to Wheel of Time, Age of Wonders, Xcom, etc. would be going past anyone on Bay forums. You're going to have to get a lot more esoteric than that to lose anyone here...

I like the idea of using a building to create a forced multi-race faction, but it creates balance issues. I wouldn't want it to be too difficult, but if you aren't careful it could end up like the skeletons, or even worse the shambling zombie guys. Way to easy to spam a HUGE population. I like the idea of unreliability. It adds more drama or even possibly !fun!. Planning on resuming the project tomorrow, and I should have about two weeks of relative free time to pump into it!

Multi-race is now working! So that fixes that problem....Still took thirty minutes to clear up the boulder crabs. Someone really should look at that if they haven't ever heard of it. My civilization was ALL boulder crab...Cause appears to have been

creature_paladin
[CREATURE:PALADIN]

entity_paladin
[CREATURE:PALADIN]

as changing those words to Blight removed the problem. Anyway, the crabs are actually quite interesting as they appear non-intelligent, butcherable, civilization members. Tinkered around with them a tad. It's like the entity token was made of thin air... As several entity settings I changed did NOTHING. Tried giving animals, just to see if I could add animals to the crabs and nothing happened. What fun! I have the bug stored away on a save file.

EDIT: Current question would be this: What races would people see as joining an 'anti-evil biome' faction. Also note the working title will be "Blight Breakers" Do to the crab bug :P

Well i guess some of the more fanatical members of the orcish order of the Morning Star can join. Just say that they were kicked out due to their fanaticism

Sounds like a classic duplicated raws bug, I.e. you duplicated a creature name that already existed. Did you check your error log? Or just grep Paladin and check if there's already an entry

Dwarves and elves would be fairly solid choices, I think. Dwarves because they seem pretty concerned with things like duty and honor and they already have a "witch-hunter" caste that- in my experience- can ruin a necromancer's day with minimal back-up; and elves because they probably view the existence of demons and the undead as a ghastly affront to nature.

Humans would do anything, if the price is right too, orcs just enjoy fighting...

If you are just looking for reasons to join a crusade, most races can fit, even if not all join for the initlal reason of the crusade.

This talk of error logs intrigues me...

*goes back to drawing board* Writing up a big, formalized design atm.

Blight Breakers [Paladins v 0.1]

I have gone through and re-read all the posts, and I think I have an idea where this would best go. I think what people really want is the addition of consequences, taint, and purity to the games mechanics. So perhaps a race that is entirely built upon the druidism mechanic. (WAY beyond me) I had tried to capture this, using trade with factions, writ and diplomacy to measure worth, but I think most people are less than excited by that. That's really the only major change so far, just some polish here and there. Oh, loved the honored dead idea!

I still envision a knightly order (No need to implement, just how I will always see them), perhaps having a 'pet' that does all labors (no SKILLED CRAFTSMAN at all). There is no need for 'progression' in the sense of castes. Just implementing multiple races will be cluttered enough. So no job specific castes. Just let the original engine do it's thing. You want a priest, teach him. You want a warrior, train him, bless him, etc.

Priests -> holy relics (The factions main resource. I envision this being like a craftsman, no real cost, just slow to make)
Holy relics -> Rituals -> Blessings for both men and weapons...
Blessing of Courage (Fearless)
Blessing of the Stalwart (No Pain)
Blessed weapon (+X% combat stats)

Taint is a a fairly major piece of polish, but I really think it gives my idea the ol'DF polish.
Taint is perhaps the evil version of blessings, it would be 'easier' to create many powerful soldiers, and I think its focus would be maiming and slowly killing. But obviously locks out the 'good' guy element. If your corruption goes to -1, you also become [EVIL] and automatically get attacked by factions and loose all support. However, it will give access to everything you will eventually need. Perhaps you will be forced to spend several years without immigrants and new population, if you survive you get access to new toys.
Tainted warrior (A bloodlust mechanic, more blood on character = better combat stats) [Very early concept]
Tainted weapon (Poison type mechanics, way more potential power. As poison quickly alters balance of power)

Morality changing factors
(-) Killing
(-) Looting (Is it possible? Maybe a negative point for touching any refuse? [Keep in mind these are not hunter/gatherers])
(-) Dark Rituals
(-) Tormenting Souls (Create evil worker pet)
(-) Dark Mother (Creating new devotee's [Birthing])
(-) Twist animals (Create undead/monster versions of wildlife)
(-) Desecrate Dead (Totem type pet, syndromes, fear, multiple options, perhaps random)
(-) Release zombie uprising
(+/-) Growing plants/deforestation?
(+) Healing the land (ties in with right above. Want to tie it into the cavern mechanic. IE create new 'caverns biomes' that you can spawn to slowly terraform a region. Start with Blighted land end with feather trees, golden sap, and teletubbies. Or the other way around...Zombie teletubbies anyone?)
(+) Healing wounded (No idea how to heal enemy)
(+) Holy Rituals
(+) Purifying Animals (take a zombie animal corpse, run reaction -> living, healthy animal)
(+) Animal Servants (Monkey builders, etc? [joke?])
(+) Curing madness (Artifact moods, no more artifacts...If you don't cure it, he will go mad...)
(+) Honoring the dead (I loved this idea. Take an enemy invader corpse, run reaction -> an instantly dead citizen, that you must now bury)
(=) Crusades/defense (raids) mechanics. I was never in love with this, just felt it was a necessary component to explain why the other factions where giving you stuff. A little sad at losing the trade/diplomacy things :'(, but that is the march of progress. It was not that good a system.

An example of an end game holy spell:

Blessing of Serenity (no cost, assuming you are actually pure enough to use it) - All hostiles go to sleep, and then die, peacefully. (Paralysis) This causes a lot of corruption, and the player must scramble to honor the dead, to balance the corruption.Or.... They don't have to die, maybe they just never wake from the dream, and become a 'member'. You must provide for them, draining limited resources.

I like the idea of hidden corruption inside your fort as well. So perhaps immigrants carry outside influences, some of them are good and some evil. You must find and purify all those who alter your sphere. (NOT KILL! unless your evil... just realized, purify does not equal kill in all of my posts. It also doesn't mean torture. I think of a hospital as a place of purity. The sterile white shows clean, without taint...)

I think that this could very easily capture the warhammer feel many people want, while still allowing a huge range of styles of play. No traditional DF gameplay. Just a survival mode....

Qutestion: Could the blessings consume purity points? I wouldn't want it to count as 'corruption' however. So perhaps a second system to track the [ABSOLUTE] Value of your accumulated deeds. An simpler alternative would be to use the number as a modifier. EG... Blessed Armor gives +X% to defensive value...Keep in mind if x = 1000... That wooden shield is very powerful. To balance, make it easy to corrupt, hard to stay pure.

What I want/need

More Ideas! (Thanks for all the awesome suggestions!)
Morality script (Negative = Corrupted & Positive = Pure) I cannot do this (yet), unless there is a way free of DFHack someone can recommend.
White Cloaked figures [Graphic] (I can probably do this, but...Far from artist, am I)
A means of protecting men from the elements: Hot, Cold, evil rains, zombie bites, etc. I don't want ANOTHER tunnel underground to survive...I mean, I DON'T do that with my orcs, humans, etc....kobolds.... I envision a workshop that can heal/protect against these things.
A source of equipment, I dislike the idea of just making it. If I want to run a city of craftsman and engineers, I play dwarves, orcs, warlocks, gnomes, or succubi. Where's my trading now! *goes off and cries*

*mutters* maybe just try humans....boring bland humans... :P

To continue:

Forgot races:

I say yay!
-Dwarves
-Elves
-Humans
-Gnomes
-Orcs (OLOG PALADIN! :P)

I say may? (Don't have a good image of the 'culture' in my head)
-Drow
-Goblins
-Kobolds
-Naga
-Frost Giants (jk)
-Angel guys....( I wanted angels as an epic spell, not a race member... :o )

I say nay!
-Succubi (They like evil biomes...)
-HFS
-Forgotten Things
-Centaurs
-Werewolves
-Warlocks
-Banshees
-Automatons

I have no idea if it's possible to change what faction you are but it sounds awesome.

How about questing after relics, as in the old legends of Excalibur, the Holy Grail, or the Golden Fleece? Like the Orc raiding system but with lower chances of success, the main benefit being a small boost to purity just from running it and possibly a special weapon/armor piece. ~65% of nothing, ~5% of killing the worker, ~20% of bringing back some super-valuable furniture, (So it makes people happy when they look at it.) ~10% of bringing back a weapon or armor made of a random material.

A special "incense candle" tool be required to run most (un)holy rituals, made with a bag of leaves, a thread, and a blob of wax/tallow.

Another idea: Pilgrimages: Sending out an expedition to find a legendary location, pay some respects when they get there, and bring something back to put to practical use.

Possible pilgrimage examples:

Take an empty barrel and investigate rumors about a "Fountain of Youth", ~95% chance of unit returning with an ordinary barrel of water, ~5% chance of returning with a barrel of eternal youth potion.

Take a bag and set out to collect a featherwood sapling to process and farm for fort use. Evil equivalent collects glumprong sapling instead, with a risk of killing the harvester.

Pay respects at a legendary tomb, costs incense candles to burn in effigy on location, doesn't do anything but increase purity rating. Evil pilgrimage robs the tomb instead hopefully while the guardians inside are distracted by the placating incense smoke, resulting in a bit of treasure and taint should the robber be successful.

As for the equipment issue: A "Chapterhouse" building, used to communicate with the main organization for resupplying. Really slow reactions due to the bureaucracy, but they provide standard arms and armor in exchange for purity points. (If it's even possible, that is. I'm a history/folklore enthusiast, not a coder.) Negotiation or Persuasion could decrease the time it takes to request goods.

The lack of knowledge is what kills me. I am really fluctuating on the writ vs purity aspect. As I can use writs kinda like a currency, its within my scope. Also I am kinda hung up without someone to help or explain dfhack to me. Very Boring doing nothing! So back to original idea. Not a big deal, just easier to work with. (Smiles on inside) I would like to integrate corruption. Is it possible to control?

IE: I am thinking of plump helmet men and their revolts. Never messed with them (it is on the list, unfortunately df has a VERY long list for me :) ) If the take over the fort, the player loses or just maintains the usual controls but with a new.... Screw it... gonna make one after the post....

I think people all like the idea of being able to 'fall', and I have no idea how to add that without the last post. Now that I think about it, it was the main reason I dropped my writs...

Just gonna make writs a currency for the faction. I can do something this way, and if someone steps up who can dfhack we can worry about it then. It will function exactly as above, but clutter the fort with 'papers'. Of course, I will study corruption men to see if I can implement corruption without dfhack.

Like the ideas. Pilgrimage is perfect for getting holy relics (Early game currency). Add in a small chance of something actually useful. Still thinking over the rest, but history buffs are useful for ideas! Also could use some hardcore warhammer buffs, more a 40k man myself. Warhammer sounds a bit closer imo.

So its one of my many days off.
Goals for today:
-Study plump helmet men (For corruption, not fun!)
-Create a working writ system
-Figure out negative consequences (May tinker with diplomacy as well some form of anti currency)

Note: I feel this post is out of date. As I totally read the forum rules, I already know the answer, I just want to test the rest of you. Can I repost here? Or should I check with Meph, so I don't clutter things up?

The forum rules I inveted was just to slow down the creation of single threads for single questions, which make more sense to be all together, so that people that have the same problem can find them easier.

You can open as many threads about as many topics as you like. Besides, I am not a moderator, thats only Toady. ;)

Not a full post, but I have been busy with real life. Supposed to be 'free' time got eaten up. Still more free time ahead though, so I feel that I will be able to have a working system figured out by the end.

To do List:

   * Limit start supplies
   * ~~Study Object mechanics~~
   * ~~Limit animals (wagon?)~~
   * ~~Go through workshops (hardcoded)~~ - Try and rename/change function (High Priority?)
      * ~~Get supplies~~ (Food, timber, drink, clothes, medical stuff)
      * ~~Get armor and weapons~~
      * ~~Questing Site~~
      * Pilgrimage (Casting materials) (169 Count) (3 reactions?)
         * Search for Trinket (Amulet), Symbol (Scepter), Artifact (Figurine)
         * Blessed Trinket - 81 (50%)
         * Blessed Symbol - 27 (15%)
         * Blessed Artifact - 9 (5%)
         * Holy Trinket - 27
         * Holy Symbol - 9
         * Holy Artifact - 3 (1.7%)
         * Sacred Trinket -9
         * Sacred Symbol - 3
         * Sacred Artifact - 1 (0.5%)
      * Magical Facilities (Blessed, Holy, and Sacred - Each requires an equivalent Pilgrimage, and subsequent buildings materials)
         * 3 Tiers of Shrines
            * Blessed Shrine (Healing Building)
            * Holy Shrine (Stronger Heals, Unit buff's)
            * Sacred Shrine (Strongest Buff's, Potential Powerhouse unit source)
         * 3 Tiers of Temples
            * Blessed Temple (Early Source of writs = Supplies, honors the dead?)
            * Holy Temple (Low level Equipment buffs, Better version of Writs?)
            * Sacred Temple (Powerful Equipment buffs, 1 defense spell)
         * 3 Tiers of Reliquaries
            * Blessed Reliquary (Early Defensive structure, traps and wards)
            * Holy Reliquary (Reformat Biome?)
            * Sacred Reliquary (Ultimate abilities)
               * Create the Mother
   * Economy will function like this - Multiple tiers of embassy type workshops for each (every?) faction. As your faction grows, a random (1% chance'ish) writ will unlock the next tier, symbolizing a growing relationship with the relative faction, it will give access to the ~~higher quality resources~~ better deals.
      * Receive calls for aid (A random, no risk task that leads to receiving, special faction assignments)
         * Defend village, town, city, king
         * Hunt terrorizing megabeast
         * etc
      * Call for supplies
         * 50% food stuffs
         * 50% building mats
         * 45% other
      * Call for aid
         * 30% one member
         * 25% second
         * 20% third
         * 15% fourth
         * 10% fifth
         * 5% sixth
      * Call for armaments (faction specific)
         * 20% armor (per piece, one set)
         * 20% weapons
   * Headquarters
      * Send out patrols (Increases the security of the region, gives a 'document' allowing an increased success chance for diplomatic missions
      * Hunt for enemies (High risk, but gain a writ?)
      * Mass an Assualt (Unlock something special)
         * Need something to simulate leaving soldiers. I see a reverse *spawn citizen* reaction. Need something, not just a flat % for loosing 'one' member
         * Deploy Troops Reaction (Worker is converted into a 'resource' of some sort, need to study warlocks rose 'sleeper' thing). This way they are potentially consumed in the above reactions -- Current focus point. I think it is something that could really put a shine on MW and DF both. Never know how far I will go, but this is a good idea. Gonna try and get it working tomorrow. Oh, crap, might need DFHack...

EDIT:
*Need better names for stuff...
*Need a working nature interaction
*Need a corruption system (Still no idea here)

EDIT 2:
*Already got a worse case scenario for soldier reaction. Run a reaction that always 'kills' the worker. Always creates a token that represents soldier strength deployed in the field (active duty - working title). This can be refunded at the same place. Course, you will loose any skills. I see this as useful with population control, storing citizens in a way. Good for FPS.

EDIT 3:
This will also allow more creativity and balance in the gameplay. See orcs as an example:

Risky raid v Safe raid

Risky has a reduced chance of success, and represents a small incersion type operation. In many ways someone could die, but it almost random. As they sneak into a camp, one of them breaks a twig...
75% - Orc soldier token
75% - Orc soldier token
75% - Orc soldier token
85% - to fail

Safe is likely to suceed, but should loose someone. This can reflect a more 'pitched' battle, where you attack, loose one guy but get the goods.
95% - Orc soldier token
95% - Orc soldier token
95% - Orc soldier token
95% - Orc soldier token
95% - Orc soldier token

8) <= This is me having fun
95% - Orc soldier token
15% - to fail

I skimmed pages four and 5 I admit but here's my thoughts on this and some of my own suggestions/stupid ideas. For simplicity's sake and since they tend to be the most dominant race in younger worlds anyway (at least in my experience,) this assumes the order is composed of humans primarily. Some of these ideas are taken partly from the good ol' sphess mahreens, and various nobles are inspired by Christian clergy rankings or pulled from elsewhere.

Reproduction: The militant order version isn't strictly one gender and doesn't discourage marriage but doesn't encourage it either. Population ratio is heavily skewed towards males (enforcing that the order prefers to recruit men but won't say no to women of sufficient valor or persistence) Invokes men as the expendable ones from a gameplay standpoint simply because for this "race" they're much more numerous and for the sake of preserving the "race" married folk need to be protected but by the very nature of being in a militant order are just as capable fighters as well (if they aren't order serfs anyway.)

Graphics: Simplification by using humans as the base solves this, even if it's kind of irritating.

Only order serfs and initiates can be converted to ghouls or corrupted beings for the succubi and warlocks. Initiates and above are either immune (Angels, Living Saints) or commit suicide (Templars, Knights, Paladins, Clerics) during the corruption rituals/spells (The interactions kill them or have a case of No Sell)

INTERNAL THREATS

Dark Covens will seek to corrupt lesser knights, clerics, and the many varieties of order serf in a similar fashion to the carp cult, aiming to turn them against the rest of the order or severely weaken it.
Warlock Spies will attempt to sabotage the citadel from within, using their magic to conceal their true selves.
More foolish werewolves may try to join the order to escape their past. Whether or not they are cured or killed is entirely up to the chapters who discover them in their ranks, but they are always a threat if allowed to live until cured.
Succubi Infiltrators will try to pick apart the order by undermining the serfs, whispering foul lies and temptations to them resulting in these serfs trying to kill everyone around them out of jealousy, paranoia, or for false promises of reward (in contrast a Dark Coven will try to build a base among the serfs, initiates, and knights before striking; Succubi will simply try to kill as many as possible and as quickly as possible, without getting their own hands dirty in the process.)

CASTES
Most of what was suggested by others seems to fit nicely though I have my own take.

Spoiler: LABOR (click to show/hide)

All labor castes are alcohol dependant.

Order Serf: Common folk who've joined the order to assist it in building its temples, citadels, and chapterhouses in exchange for a chance to escape their past or in the hope of joining the order itself. Being commoners and not warriors they are easily depressed when things get rough, and most tend to try and drink away whatever metaphorical demons are eating them. Children born among the Order Serfs are screened by the order's Physicians and those deemed fit enough will eventually join the order proper as initiates, while the rest remain part of the order as Serfs like their parents, though they may one day make an effort to join themselves.

In times of need, the order may call on their humble serfs to take up arms alongside them, arming them with weapons easiest to use and obtain: Hatchets, spears, and crossbows.

Make up majority of the race population alongside Initiates
Learn most noncombat labors at normal rate
Learn stoneworking, most metalworking labors save furnace operation, architecture, and all engineering skills save pump operation slower
Learn axe, spear, and crossbow skills at a slightly faster rate (crossbows mainly just require some physical conditioning and axes/spears where among the most common tools/weapons in the old days)
One of only two labor castes able to join the order knights proper.

=Specialists=

Order Smith: Some Serfs want to contribute more than just time at the plowshares or the odd bit of support fire with a crossbow while other seem born with a natural affinity for working metals and thus take up the role of a smith for the order. They are physically strong individuals from their work at the forge and are just as handy using their hammers to crack trespasser heads as they are using them to hammer metal.

Above average strength
Learns nonmetalworking and most combat skills slower.

Order Architect: Some serfs in their past life learned well the ways of brick and mortar, structural design, and the intricacy of the chisel, while others just seem to have been born with a knack for it. They are entrusted with planning and overseeing construction of the order's facilities in whatever region or island they come to, as well as crafting finer stone items like furniture. Their work demands great focus and attention to detail, lest that new Initiate barracks come crashing down on the hapless would-be knights and paladins.

High Focus, Analytical Abilities, Intellect (may make them able to be more passable marksmen)
Learns stoneworking and architecture much faster than regular serfs.

Order Engineer: Like the above, these folks were once members of the engineer's guild, apprentices thereof, or just plain talented in the field. They tend to the order's siege engines and maintain the traps used to delay invaders and ward of kidnappers. Due to the finicky nature of anything involving mechanisms and the fact that components are often quite heavy they are swift and strong, but their work with large machinery and weapons has left their actual combat skills lacking; they may know how to make a spring loaded trap to kill a ghoul or succubus, but standing and fighting them is a different matter entirely for them.

Learn engineering skills much faster than other serfs
Above average speed, intellect, and strength, but often lacking in other areas physically
Learn most other skills considerably at a slower pace and combat skills are very hard for them to fully grasp, since they learned how to make a springy wooden arm or an industrial-sized crossbow do their fighting, not how to fight themselves.

Physicians: Tend to the wounded both Serf and Knight. Theirs is work of the spirit and of biology and as such they don't learn nonmedical labors besides herbalism and refuse to take part in hostilities. Viewed by many knights as weaklings with no stomach for spreading their god's word and destroying evil through action, they must also admit without these men (and sometimes women,) the order would slowly erode under all the evil's sheer weight of numbers.

Do not learn combat or nonmedical labors save herbalism (to gather ingredients for medicines of course!)
Physical traits geared towards their medicinal abilities

Preists/Preachers: Similar to Physicians, however they spend their time absorbed in prayer, public speaking/diplomacy, and writing rather than medicine. Responsible for handling adamantine, praying to the gods for material aid, and attracting new members. Some may opt to take to the battlefield however, abandoning these more peaceful pursuits to aid the knights and paladins in battle directly, taking a few months to meditate, learn the basics of warfare, and send word to their monastic orders that they have joined the Order Militant (requiring food, drink, a mace or hammer skill book, some ink, paper and 6 months time.)

Recruit order serfs, initiates, and wandering knights for the order
Handle writing, prayer, and tasks requiring the diplomacy and public speaking skills.
Can become potent blunt weapon fighters
One of only two labor castes able to join the order proper

Spoiler: COMBAT CASTES (click to show/hide)

All Order warriors learn noncombat skills either very (Initiates, Paladins, Clerics) slowly or not at all. Order serfs require 6 months to become initiates (indoctrination and education period requiring food, drink, and reusable "Order Introduction" Tome.) Initiates may become order serfs for a small fee (reimbursing the order for the food and drink rationed them during their initial education,) and a few months of (re)adjustment to life amongst the commons again.

Initiate: The bottom rung of the Order Militant. Physically greater specimens than the serfs (though not by a whole hell of alot) who tend to their logistics either due to training or by nature. Make up a rather high percentage of the population, being the combat equivalent to Order Serfs.

Learn Noncombat skills very slowly.
Learn combat skills at a slightly faster rate than normal

Knight: The first "real" warriors of the order. They have undergone rigorous physical conditioning and arms training and taken an oath of honor to never refuse a challenge (likes fighting,) are physically superior to initiates in all manners, and have truly pledged themselves wholly to the order. They refuse to even consider taking on roles they deem fit only for the Order Serfs to do, being a little full of themselves thanks to their new standing. From here they can either become Templars or Paladins for a year's time and some resources.

6 month transformation time requiring a reusable "Book of Chivalry" tome, some food and drink, metal bars for training weights (Conditioning, training, and oath taking.)
Learn no noncombat skills
[LIKES_FIGHTING]
Physically superior to initiates
Learn combat skills much faster than initiates or serfs

Templars: Steadfast and uncompromising warriors who specialize in the use of swords and shields and lots of righteous fury. Evil creatures (from automatons and greenskins to demons and the undead) Sends them into a vicious frenzy as they strike at these dark foes with all their might. They feel no fear nor pain, and refuse to back down from a fight, lest the order's honor be stained and they look weak in the face of the very things they are sworn to destroy (missing limbs and broken ribs be damned!) Takes a full year of training, some food and drink, metal bars (for training weights,) and several tomes (Way of the Templar, Holy Scripture, and Sword and Shield skill books)

Almost perfect physically
Will not Learn noncombat skills
More specialized than paladins, learning sword and shield skills faster than other combat skills (and only learn those other skills somewhat faster, being focused on using swords and shields.)
Cannot learn marksman or bowman skills (after all how can they properly harness their wrath at a distance?)
[PRONE_TO_RAGE]
[NOFEAR]
[NOPAIN]
[LIKES_FIGHTING]

Paladins: More generalist fighters and often the face of the militant order. They are much more well adjusted in their oaths and while they still revile the likes of demons, the undead, and greenskins, they are not worked into a violent frenzy over it. Their abilities manifest as martial trances and learning skills at double the rate of a knight, though they aren't nearly as skilled as Templars are with their swords. Like Templars however they are able to handle pain and injury well. They have also come to respect the levy troops, lesser initiates, and Order Serfs without whom the order couldn't function and as such are willing to help in noncombat roles; they are still warriors first and anything else second however. Training time requires a year's time and several resources (many of the same for Templars, as well as Way of the Paladin in place of Way of the Templar, Holy Scripture, and a General Manual of Arms tome)

Almost perfect physically
Very, very slowly learn noncombat and nonmedical labors
Learn all combat skills faster than any other regular order unit save for sword and shield (this is where Templars reign supreme.)
[NOFEAR]
[NOPAIN]
[LIKES_FIGHTING]
[TRANCES]

Cleric: Priests and monks who've chosen to abandon oaths of nonviolence so that they may help dispatch evil in a more direct fashion. They primarily fight with hammers and maces, learning these weapon skills far more quickly than even Paladins, and possess the ability to free the souls of the undead from their shambling shells and purging corruption from the decrepit likes of ghouls and zombies.

Mace and hammer users
Able to lay undead to rest, specifically those used by Warlocks (kill skeletons instantly, chance to kill/paralyze ghouls and general zombies. Obviously this ability requires a cooldown time of a few days at the least)
Aside from their skills as priests and such prior to taking to the field, any noncombat skills are learned painfully slowly

Living Saint: Templars and Paladins who have done something truly great are blessed by the unnamed god directly either when they take notice or they eschew all else and are forced into his gaze by the rest of the order as a great hero. Physically perfect with very high mental stats and very altruistic personalities, as well as potent abilities against the undead (chance to destroy or paralyze skeletons, ghouls, and general undead.) They can also uncover those under the sway of a dark coven that has infiltrated the citadel without alerting them.

Perfect physical specimens
Learn no noncombat skills (though their agility and helpfulness make them excellent for rescuing wounded fighters, those this is a gross waste of their abilities)
Can destroy corrupted beings (corrupted entities in Succubus covens/tribes/whatever you wanna call them,) and can cripple abilities of other dark beings (debuffs to succubi and warlocks, sapping their strength and endurance)
Can only be created from natural births, Paladins, or Templars at great cost, though they may be well worth it.
Requires a two-year long period of meditation and prayer, holy scripture, food, drink, and various items as tribute (a weapon, platinum statue, and several cut gems.)
Cannot learn noncombat skills
[NOEAT]
[NODRINK]
[TRANCES]
No MAXAGE
Naturally high combat skills and learns them faster than Paladins
Able to spot covens in the serf's ranks without rousing their suspicion.

Angel: Unlike various gods of war and death and what have you, these angels are born of blessed individuals or are sent to the order to lead it. They are much larger than those they lead (about the size of an Uruk,) and are able to fly, as well as flush out dark covens (though you should be prepared for a fight if this happens,) lay various undead to rest, and once per week outright kill demonic creatures/servants be they fiends, succubi, blood beasts or what have you.

Extremely rare; cannot be made by the player, only through natural birth
Perfect physical specimens
Much larger than a human
[FLIER]
[NOEAT]
[NODRINK]
[TRANCES]
No MAXAGE
Counters Dark Covens openly (be ready for a fight!)
Can destroy demonic and dark magic entities (primarily succubi and warlock-related beings)
Naturally high combat skills and learns them faster than Paladins

WORKSHOP IDEAS

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

NOBLES

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

The general feel is a well intentioned order fo religious zealots seeking to protect the world by plopping down citadels and temples, using these as bases of operation to strike at EVILLLL! And if the evil is all dead, then to protect the people from wildlife and bandits so they can still feel useful after all that effort building their fortresses and worship spaces, which is where this all came from. Succubi and Warlocks would need to plan for these bastards first and any other race second.

I skimmed pages four and 5 I admit but here's my thoughts on this and some of my own suggestions/stupid ideas. For simplicity's sake and since they tend to be the most dominant race in younger worlds anyway (at least in my experience,) this assumes the order is composed of humans primarily. Some of these ideas are taken partly from the good ol' sphess mahreens, and various nobles are inspired by Christian clergy rankings or pulled from elsewhere.

Reproduction: The militant order version isn't strictly one gender and doesn't discourage marriage but doesn't encourage it either. Population ratio is heavily skewed towards males (enforcing that the order prefers to recruit men but won't say no to women of sufficient valor or persistence) Invokes men as the expendable ones from a gameplay standpoint simply because for this "race" they're much more numerous and for the sake of preserving the "race" married folk need to be protected; however by the very nature of being in a militant order they are just as capable fighters as well (if they aren't order serfs anyway.)

Graphics: Simplification by using humans as the base solves this, even if it's kind of irritating.

Only order serfs and initiates can be converted to ghouls or corrupted beings for the succubi and warlocks. Clerics, Knights, and above are either immune (Angels, Living Saints) or commit suicide (Templars, Knights, Paladins, Clerics) during the corruption rituals/spells (The interactions kill them or have a case of No Sell)

INTERNAL THREATS

Dark Covens will seek to corrupt lesser knights, clerics, and the many varieties of order serf in a similar fashion to the carp cult, aiming to turn them against the rest of the order or severely weaken it.
Warlock Spies will attempt to sabotage the citadel from within, using their magic to conceal their true selves.
More foolish werewolves may try to join the order to escape their past. Whether or not they are cured or killed is entirely up to the chapters who discover them in their ranks, but they are always a threat if allowed to live until cured.
Succubi Infiltrators will try to pick apart the order by undermining the serfs, whispering foul lies and temptations to them resulting in these serfs trying to kill everyone around them out of jealousy, paranoia, or for false promises of reward (in contrast a Dark Coven will try to build a base among the serfs, initiates, and knights before striking; Succubi will simply try to kill as many as possible and as quickly as possible, without getting their own hands dirty in the process.)

CASTES
Most of what was suggested by others seems to fit nicely though I have my own take.

Spoiler: LABOR (click to show/hide)

All labor castes are alcohol dependant.

Order Serf: Common folk who've joined the order to assist it in building its temples, citadels, and chapterhouses in exchange for a chance to escape their past or in the hope of joining the order itself. Being commoners and not warriors they are easily depressed when things get rough, and most tend to try and drink away whatever metaphorical demons are eating them. Children born among the Order Serfs are screened by the order's Physicians and those deemed fit enough will eventually join the order proper as initiates, while the rest remain part of the order as Serfs like their parents, though they may one day make an effort to join themselves.

In times of need, the order may call on their humble serfs to take up arms alongside them, arming them with weapons easiest to use and obtain: Hatchets, spears, and crossbows.

Make up majority of the race population alongside Initiates
Learn most noncombat labors at normal rate
Learn stoneworking, most metalworking labors save furnace operation, architecture, and all engineering skills save pump operation slower
Learn axe, spear, and crossbow skills at a slightly faster rate (crossbows mainly just require some physical conditioning and axes/spears where among the most common tools/weapons in the old days)
One of only two labor castes able to join the order knights proper.

=Specialists=

Order Smith: Some Serfs want to contribute more than just time at the plowshares or the odd bit of support fire with a crossbow while other seem born with a natural affinity for working metals and thus take up the role of a smith for the order. They are physically strong individuals from their work at the forge and are just as handy using their hammers to crack trespasser heads as they are using them to hammer metal.

Above average strength
Learns nonmetalworking and most combat skills slower.

Order Architect: Some serfs in their past life learned well the ways of brick and mortar, structural design, and the intricacy of the chisel, while others just seem to have been born with a knack for it. They are entrusted with planning and overseeing construction of the order's facilities in whatever region or island they come to, as well as crafting finer stone items like furniture. Their work demands great focus and attention to detail, lest that new Initiate barracks come crashing down on the hapless would-be knights and paladins.

High Focus, Analytical Abilities, Intellect (may make them able to be more passable marksmen)
Learns stoneworking and architecture much faster than regular serfs.

Order Engineer: Like the above, these folks were once members of the engineer's guild, apprentices thereof, or just plain talented in the field. They tend to the order's siege engines and maintain the traps used to delay invaders and ward of kidnappers. Due to the finicky nature of anything involving mechanisms and the fact that components are often quite heavy they are swift and strong, but their work with large machinery and weapons has left their actual combat skills lacking; they may know how to make a spring loaded trap to kill a ghoul or succubus, but standing and fighting them is a different matter entirely for them.

Learn engineering skills much faster than other serfs
Above average speed, intellect, and strength, but often lacking in other areas physically
Learn most other skills considerably at a slower pace and combat skills are very hard for them to fully grasp, since they learned how to make a springy wooden arm or an industrial-sized crossbow do their fighting, not how to fight themselves.

Physicians: Tend to the wounded both Serf and Knight. Theirs is work of the spirit and of biology and as such they don't learn nonmedical labors besides herbalism and refuse to take part in hostilities. Viewed by many knights as weaklings with no stomach for spreading their god's word and destroying evil through action, they must also admit without these men (and sometimes women,) the order would slowly erode under all the evil's sheer weight of numbers.

Do not learn combat or nonmedical labors save herbalism (to gather ingredients for medicines of course!)
Physical traits geared towards their medicinal abilities

Preists/Preachers: Similar to Physicians, however they spend their time absorbed in prayer, public speaking/diplomacy, and writing rather than medicine. Responsible for handling adamantine, praying to the gods for material aid, and attracting new members. Some may opt to take to the battlefield however, abandoning these more peaceful pursuits to aid the knights and paladins in battle directly, taking a few months to meditate, learn the basics of warfare, and send word to their monastic orders that they have joined the Order Militant (requiring food, drink, a mace or hammer skill book, some ink, paper and 6 months time.)

Recruit order serfs, initiates, and wandering knights for the order
Handle writing, prayer, and tasks requiring the diplomacy and public speaking skills.
Can become potent blunt weapon fighters
One of only two labor castes able to join the order proper

Spoiler: COMBAT CASTES (click to show/hide)

All Order warriors learn noncombat skills either very (Initiates, Paladins, Clerics) slowly or not at all. Order serfs require 6 months to become initiates (indoctrination and education period requiring food, drink, and reusable "Order Introduction" Tome.) Initiates may become order serfs for a small fee (reimbursing the order for the food and drink rationed them during their initial education,) and a few months of (re)adjustment to life amongst the commons again.

Initiate: The bottom rung of the Order Militant. Physically greater specimens than the serfs (though not by a whole hell of alot) who tend to their logistics either due to training or by nature. Make up a rather high percentage of the population, being the combat equivalent to Order Serfs.

Learn Noncombat skills very slowly.
Learn combat skills at a slightly faster rate than normal

Knight: The first "real" warriors of the order. They have undergone rigorous physical conditioning and arms training and taken an oath of honor to never refuse a challenge (likes fighting,) are physically superior to initiates in all manners, and have truly pledged themselves wholly to the order. They refuse to even consider taking on roles they deem fit only for the Order Serfs to do, being a little full of themselves thanks to their new standing. From here they can either become Templars or Paladins for a year's time and some resources.

6 month transformation time requiring a reusable "Book of Chivalry" tome, some food and drink, metal bars for training weights (Conditioning, training, and oath taking.)
Learn no noncombat skills
[LIKES_FIGHTING]
Physically superior to initiates
Learn combat skills much faster than initiates or serfs

Templars: Steadfast and uncompromising warriors who specialize in the use of swords and shields and lots of righteous fury. Evil creatures (from automatons and greenskins to demons and the undead) Sends them into a vicious frenzy as they strike at these dark foes with all their might. They feel no fear nor pain, and refuse to back down from a fight, lest the order's honor be stained and they look weak in the face of the very things they are sworn to destroy (missing limbs and broken ribs be damned!) Takes a full year of training, some food and drink, metal bars (for training weights,) and several tomes (Way of the Templar, Holy Scripture, and Sword and Shield skill books)

Almost perfect physically
Will not Learn noncombat skills
More specialized than paladins, learning sword and shield skills faster than other combat skills (and only learn those other skills somewhat faster, being focused on using swords and shields.)
Cannot learn marksman or bowman skills (after all how can they properly harness their wrath at a distance?)
[PRONE_TO_RAGE]
[NOFEAR]
[NOPAIN]
[LIKES_FIGHTING]

Paladins: More generalist fighters and often the face of the militant order. They are much more well adjusted in their oaths and while they still revile the likes of demons, the undead, and greenskins, they are not worked into a violent frenzy over it. Their abilities manifest as martial trances and learning skills at double the rate of a knight, though they aren't nearly as skilled as Templars are with their swords. Like Templars however they are able to handle pain and injury well. They have also come to respect the levy troops, lesser initiates, and Order Serfs without whom the order couldn't function and as such are willing to help in noncombat roles; they are still warriors first and anything else second however. Training time requires a year's time and several resources (many of the same for Templars, as well as Way of the Paladin in place of Way of the Templar, Holy Scripture, and a General Manual of Arms tome)

Almost perfect physically
Very, very slowly learn noncombat and nonmedical labors
Learn all combat skills faster than any other regular order unit save for sword and shield (this is where Templars reign supreme.)
[NOFEAR]
[NOPAIN]
[LIKES_FIGHTING]
[TRANCES]

Cleric: Priests and monks who've chosen to abandon oaths of nonviolence so that they may help dispatch evil in a more direct fashion. They primarily fight with hammers and maces, learning these weapon skills far more quickly than even Paladins, and possess the ability to free the souls of the undead from their shambling shells and purging corruption from the decrepit likes of ghouls and zombies.

Mace and hammer users
Able to lay undead to rest, specifically those used by Warlocks (kill skeletons instantly, chance to kill/paralyze ghouls and general zombies. Obviously this ability requires a cooldown time of a few days at the least)
Aside from their skills as priests and such prior to taking to the field, any noncombat skills are learned painfully slowly

Living Saint: Templars and Paladins who have done something truly great are blessed by the unnamed god directly either when they take notice or they eschew all else and are forced into his gaze by the rest of the order as a great hero. Physically perfect with very high mental stats and very altruistic personalities, as well as potent abilities against the undead (chance to destroy or paralyze skeletons, ghouls, and general undead.) They can also uncover those under the sway of a dark coven that has infiltrated the citadel without alerting them.

Perfect physical specimens
Learn no noncombat skills (though their agility and helpfulness make them excellent for rescuing wounded fighters, those this is a gross waste of their abilities)
Can destroy corrupted beings (corrupted entities in Succubus covens/tribes/whatever you wanna call them,) and can cripple abilities of other dark beings (debuffs to succubi and warlocks, sapping their strength and endurance)
Can only be created from natural births, Paladins, or Templars at great cost, though they may be well worth it.
Requires a two-year long period of meditation and prayer, holy scripture, food, drink, and various items as tribute (a weapon, platinum statue, and several cut gems.)
Cannot learn noncombat skills
[NOEAT]
[NODRINK]
[TRANCES]
No MAXAGE
Naturally high combat skills and learns them faster than Paladins
Able to spot covens in the serf's ranks without rousing their suspicion.

Angel: Unlike various gods of war and death and what have you, these angels are born of blessed individuals or are sent to the order to lead it. They are much larger than those they lead (about the size of an Uruk,) and are able to fly, as well as flush out dark covens (though you should be prepared for a fight if this happens,) lay various undead to rest, and once per week outright kill demonic creatures/servants be they fiends, succubi, blood beasts or what have you.

Extremely rare; cannot be made by the player, only through natural birth
Perfect physical specimens
Much larger than a human
[FLIER]
[NOEAT]
[NODRINK]
[TRANCES]
No MAXAGE
Counters Dark Covens openly (be ready for a fight!)
Can destroy demonic and dark magic entities (primarily succubi and warlock-related beings)
Naturally high combat skills and learns them faster than Paladins

WORKSHOP IDEAS

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

NOBLES

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

The general feel is a well intentioned order fo religious zealots seeking to protect the world by plopping down citadels and temples, using these as bases of operation to strike at EVILLLL! And if the evil is all dead, then to protect the people from wildlife and bandits so they can still feel useful after all that effort building their fortresses and worship spaces, which is where this all came from. Succubi and Warlocks would need to plan for these bastards first and any other race second.

:o

I don't see how the proposed knight-becomes-token version adds much strategy to the raid process, as the odds of success are still independent of the guy's skills, attributes, gear, etc. Although, I look forward to seeing your implementation, maybe you will pull it off :) So far I am of the opinion that we need to wait for Toady to develop this part much further.

Quote

Run a reaction that always 'kills' the worker. Always creates a token that represents soldier strength deployed in the field (active duty - working title). This can be refunded at the same place. Course, you will loose any skills.

Don't trick yourself by using 'quotes' .... unless I'm misunderstanding what you have in mind, it literally kills the worker, with all the gameplay attributes that entails. (Burial, grieving family, gear goes back to the armory for a new recruit to use, new name, perfect health, new skills, new attributes, different personality, different job, new positions, confused pets, etc., new legends and life history) Perhaps this works out fine for the Templar but, in the form i can picture so far, not for the orcs.

I've heard that the counterattack raids (the FORCE scripts) might not work in DFHack in the new DF2014 version but I don't understand the details. So far I admit I've just been hoping that someone figures it out, I'm not active in DFHack development at all.

I am also a shameless thread-skimmer, but, unless its already been suggested, some "good rain" types to balance out the evil rains would be welcome (in vanilla DF too, but I already tossed that into vanilla suggestions in case it wasn't there already..)

Quote from: smakemupagus on September 28, 2014, 12:48:15 pm

I've heard that the counterattack raids (the FORCE scripts) might not work in DFHack in the new DF2014 version but I don't understand the details. So far I admit I've just been hoping that someone figures it out, I'm not active in DFHack development at all.

Well, it's a piece of script that is not updated.
And I could not find the hook/function needed to make it work in the latest dev version of DFHack.

Granted, I am not at the top of DFHack either, and it is possible that I missed this "df.global.timed_events" table, used to spawn all kind of events, including the raids/sieges.

Just doing a little organizing: Thanks for the additional posts, great food for thought guys!

I am looking at what to add or cut from the project. Personally, I don't want to see any industry at all in this game, but I think this will annoy many people. As I can just ignore whatever I do not want, I need to know what do people envision this faction using for workshops? I don't mean custom ones, but ones from the original and masterwork files. I don't see them building looms or milking cows...but I don't also see them forging steel. I can see how others would want the steel, but not the cows. Anyway, list off what you do or don't like.

EDIT:
Custom Workshop List
[BUILDING_WORKSHOP:BLESSED_SHRINE]
[BUILDING_WORKSHOP:BLESSED_TEMPLE]
[BUILDING_WORKSHOP:BLESSED_RELIQUARY]
[BUILDING_WORKSHOP:HOLY_SHRINE]
[BUILDING_WORKSHOP:HOLY_TEMPLE]
[BUILDING_WORKSHOP:HOLY_RELIQUARY]
[BUILDING_WORKSHOP:SACRED_SHRINE]
[BUILDING_WORKSHOP:SACRED_TEMPLE]
[BUILDING_WORKSHOP:SACRED_RELIQUARY]
[BUILDING_WORKSHOP:QUESTING_SITE]
[BUILDING_WORKSHOP:HEADQUARTERS]
[BUILDING_WORKSHOP:FACTION_DIPLOMAT]
[BUILDING_WORKSHOP:FACTION_CONSULATE]
[BUILDING_WORKSHOP:FACTION_EMBASSY]

Are the names satisfactory?

It sounds ok, but shouldn't you use the upgrade building scripts, like how human buildings work?

I WOULD be onboard for this, but i've got my on civ to develop

;D NP Insane

Slay - Need more details (goes to file to study) DFhack thing?

EDIT: Just a quick look seems to show human files have a similar organization...

EDIT 2: On the deploy troops thing: I believe reactions can only kill one member. On a raid, multiple soldiers would probably die, IRL. It would be a good raid where no one is hurt. Using my theory would allow the game to better model the risk/gains of combat (off-site of course). DFHack hopefully could be used to restore the information.

My backup plan is this. Deploy 'troops' each has a caste specific unit available, IE:
Deploy Knight - Consumes a knight class unit. He is then counted by a placeholder (Ie a registery that indicates he is a part of the fort, but not on site)

Restore Knight - Rebuilds the knight. technically a 'new' character with my limited knowledge. However, I think it should be easy to ensure that he has increased combat skills.

Worst Case - parallel veteran versions of castes
Veteran Knight - +2 to each combat stat, or perhaps a discount to upgrade to next tier.

WARNING: Likely to be very rambly and hard to understand

The laborer castes are how I figured the issue of the irreligious aspects can be tackled. Someone has to support them and nobody gives things away for free in DF except as offerings to try and smooth over difficulties or bait a monarch. Of course this still assumes "Militant Order" for the theme.

As to thier basic currency for certain things, the idea of pilgrimages to obtain or having priests sanctifying various items so they can be used for other tasks (like imbuing weapons or armor with holy powers or in various buffing prayers, drawing energy from the holy items retrieved by preachers and pilgrims) was a pretty good one.

Add in perhaps Holy Seals and Scriptures for certain advanced reactions or upgrades (Fixing specific seals to Templar armor to make them immune to stunning or immune to drowning for example, or using Scriptures in upgrading knights to Templars, Paladins, and Living Saints.) To build on this, seals can be used in place of fewer Holy Items for upgrading weapons, but take slightly longer to get since the seals need paper.

For example, using a large Monastery and Pilgrimage Starting Point Workshops for the tasks
Pilgrim returns with three Holy Items (amulets for the example)
Preacher returns with two Sacred Icons.
Found a werewolf in your ranks? You can use the Icon or three amulets to cure them.
Need lookouts? Take a few Seals of Flame and a Sacred Icon to make a Sanctified Ward, making a hard to destroy look-out that can't be destroyed with fire.
Pasture the Ward on the monastery and use a Scripture, some amulets, and Seal of Holy Light to give the Ward a ranged attack (solidified fire maybe?)
Repeat using a second icon and two Seals of Cleansing Fire, and it gains an AOE flame burst attack to kill enemies who get too close.

For upgrading any armors or weapons, you need Holy Amulets to provide the divine energy for the blessing, and upgrading serfs into initiates and initiates to knights.
For upgrading knights to templars or infusing equipment with Jotun and Magebane abilities you need a Sacred Icon.

Holy Items are single use, akin to souls when used by Warlocks, thus making sending Order Serfs to other holy places extremely important so they'll bring these items back. Seals need to be made by Priests resulting in 'blank seals' and a specific blessing added at a shrine, using an amulet and blank seal. Three amulets can be made into three seals that can buff three weapons or armors or all three amulets can be used upgrading only one weapon or piece of armor, or Icons can be used in place of multiple amulets.

Fear not the rambler sir!

As to your comments about resources, I feel 9 types of resources with a scaled value system will get complex enough. So it to me sounds like a name change. Seals and scriptures are a bit of a face-palm moment IMO. Scriptures shouldn't be found though, should they? Anyho, will happily accept better names, but I would prefer to avoid too many references to a single source. Keep the concept fresh and unique, rather than just playing another warhammer mod. (It wouldn't be hard, or unwanted to rename things for those wanting said experience)

Is nine enough resource types? Keep in mind that the complexity you mentioned will very well be there, your reactions are spot on to what I am envisioning myself. So the only question is, how many resources? Too many and it overwhelms (Think Starcraft v ~~Dawn of Discovery~~ Dwarf Fortress...nvm terrible example...) I feel three tiers of three is adequately sophisticated. Keep in mind this will only be for 'in-house' reactions. I also envision a diplomacy currency, offensive forces currency (Going to be a whole new game in itself), and as many portions of the original as people vote for...So far= 0, with my vote. :P

Is it possible to alter personality through syndromes? 'Cause if so, that might make a good way to model Paladin corruption/purity.

Basically, any "Evil" action would trigger a slow-acting contagious syndrome that modifies a civ-member's reactions to good and bad thoughts (Quickness to anger, easily discouraged, etc.). Killing lots of enemies without taking care to bury them would result in your paladins developing a thirst for more glory and power- modeled by making them more susceptible to unhappiness and thus forcing the overseer to accommodate them with more and more luxury if they aren't purified soon.

Conversely, the priests of the order would be armed with reactions that can give them the power (another syndrome that cancels out the first) to halt corruption and even reverse it with more powerful prayers. Humbling of a paladin would be as simple as having a priest hold a sermon at an altar and having the corrupting individual in the same room. But it would be temporary and easily negated should the paladin kill unrepentantly, handle any cursed objects, or be exposed to the angry mutterings of a paladin that hadn't attended a sermon for a while.

Forts would start out fairly simple, a place to eat, sleep, train and pray. But as the order won more and more success warriors would start to lose sight of why they were fighting in the first place, some concerned with only their own glory. The glory-hunting paladins would demand more respect than their fellows, becoming dangerously angry unless provided with more and more diversions. Late-game forts would be a constant struggle to keep rebellions from tearing the fort apart by either keeping the powerful killing machines appeased or else rooting out cultists hiding among the commoners and clergy- even while fighting off the external threats they embarked out to destroy and purify.

Certainly would be a fun mechanic if it were possible.

Sounds good, hafta brush up on syndromes. Used em before, and they are versatile...Maybe need just to create a syndrome that spawns a new unit/kills quietly.......

Personalities can only be changed when the creature or the creature caste is changed, so only with transformation. I dont know how it is in 40.x with the new dreams and life goals though, but I can only assume its similar. I'd go over to the dfhack thread and ask if its possible with a script. Interactions alone wont work.

So I just wanted to continue hurling ideas out, even if nothing comes of it.

In response to raiding/assault interactions or what have you, a possible solution to make them even more risky, is to have the unit required to be a knight or initiate, transforming them into an immobile "Off-site officer" sort of unit for 2 weeks to 3 months, depending on the reaction, which has a small chance of using a self-inflicted fatal interaction, regardless of success. This is to simulate that the knight or initiate you have leading the attack was killed during or on the way back and his or her body was returned to the citadel. The one exception is during extremely high risk assaults and dispersing kobold tribes, since someone needs to survive to report success or failure and kobolds aren't exceptionally dangerous without players to lead them.

For some semblance of realism they should be left at the muster field. It isn't a perfect solution, but it does make the order's raids considerably more risky since its your own knights "leading" the operations and potentially being killed.

Spoiler: Professions (click to show/hide)

Items - Primarily weapons and armor.

Basic items: Either basic for them, needed for producing certain equipment, or vanilla items. Special uses indicated.

Spoiler: tools and such (click to show/hide)

Special Items: These are weapons and armor mainly meant for the theme and intended to only be issued to knights and above. To prevent them from being used by serfs, they need to be made at the Holy Forge (however standard materials may be used instead of powdered ores.) However they require seals, cloth, and other armor components.

Spoiler: Knight Armors (click to show/hide)

Spoiler: Armor effects and production (click to show/hide)

Weapons require powdered ores and leather or wood at the least as well (for grips.) Some may also require ironwood or steeloak for shafts and handles. These are the weapons that may be upgraded with various blessings, and offer increased cutting or armor piercing power over regular weapons, Though the Saint's Greatsword and Angelic Broadsword cannot be upgraded with blessings.

Spoiler: Order weaponry (click to show/hide)

Spoiler: SEALS AND COMPONENTS (click to show/hide)

Spoiler: PETS (click to show/hide)

Hallowed Warrior: Suits of armor raised using the spirits of knights too stubborn or devoted to remain dead, and heeding the call to return to battle evil once more. The order creates these using a special tool at a temple, the Sanctified Armor Kit tool, along with a Holy Scripture and Sacred Icon. When struck down they leave behind a Damaged Armor tool which must be refurbished at a holy forge and reinfused with a spirit at a temple to reenter service. Damaged ones that are still 'alive' may be repaired at the Holy Forge with armor plates.
Icon of Holy Fire: Empowered Sacred Icons that have had certain seals applied that act as spotters and area denial with a fire-based AOE attack. If all three gem fonts that they project fire from are damaged they will cease to function, leaving behind a Damaged Icon.
Icon of Mending: Empowered Sacred Icons that increase the healing ability of those nearby, and may purge disease of anything within LOS once per month. However they are more fragile, being vulnerable near the gem fonts through which their healing powers flow. If all three are destroyed, they leave behind a Damaged Icon, which must be repaired in a temple.
Sacred Ward: Similar to a dwarven ward, but produced from a Sacred Icon and powered by divine energy and writ instead of a dwarf soul. Like the dwarven ward they can be destroyed if their sigil is removed or badly damaged, leaving a Damaged Icon behind. These will reveal infiltrators, but you must be ready to fight if this happens.
Falcon: A bird of prey kept by the order as a hunting aid and message animal as well as to help with pest control. Can be trained for hunting.
Horned turtle: The order recognized the threat of shell demand to the lives of its craftsmen and bartered for breeding stock of turtles from the dwarves. What they gave in exchange is unknown (possibly a call supply train option similar to the dwarven legion?)
Basic livestock: Cows and pigs for meat and milk, sheep for wool, horses for mounts (when fighting them,) and pack animals, and dogs for meatshield duty. Order serfs are responsible for tending these animals.

Awesome splint, I know it's been silent. My plans got thrown completely out the window. Have had a really crazy holiday, and it was utterly unproductive. As I said, I am doing this on my own, and I am not trying to set a schedule. This is a for the fun project, if I try and go professional, I will just burn out :).

I just skimmed your message and your raiding ideas are very similar to what I was already doing. Will read the rest, just saying I am still here, an still floating around all ghost like.

Hey that's totally fine. I like to come up with ideas for things and this is one where it happened to be right up my alley.

If I had any clue of what I was doing besides some basic copying of creatures and a clumsy understanding of reactions I'd totally help with this.

Bay 12 Games Forum

Dwarf Fortress => DF Modding => Masterwork DF => Topic started by: taldarus on September 17, 2014, 11:09:43 pm