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Dwarf Fortress => DF Community Games & Stories => Topic started by: Zanzetkuken The Great on September 30, 2014, 04:31:21 pm

Title: Dwarf Fortress from a Primal World (Evolution-like Raw modding)
Post by: Zanzetkuken The Great on September 30, 2014, 04:31:21 pm

Note: File is currently unplayable, as no sentient races, much less entities, exist at the current time.

This is a mixture of the Dwarf Fortress on Crack (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=143488.0) and Dwarf Fortress (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=127552.msg4337504#msg4337504) from Scratch (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=140715.0) in the sense that the raws folder starts out (near) blank, but each new entry is based off of a previous entry (for the most part).  Modding regulations are below, and the link to the mod proper is at the bottom of the post.

Spoiler: Modding Regulations (Open to suggestions to change this) (click to show/hide)

• Only make changes within files that carry an underscore, then a 3 letter approximation of your name or forum username.  The three letter rule also needs to be added to the end of the object's name as well.  Linking to previous content is allowed.  Exceptions to this is to add in the three letter naming convention to files, bugfixing files of an author that is not responding, or removing biome tags from the obsidian and moss, and soil tags from the black sand once we get more rocks, soils, and plants to put in those locations.
• When creating a new creature, plant, material, tissue, tissue template, or material template, copy from an existing creature, plant, material, tissue, tissue template, or material template, paste it at the end of your file, and make up to 10 changes to it.  For the most part, any changes to anything within the same set of brackets or the addition of a new set of brackets.  Exceptions are creation of castes (any number made only counts as 1), addition of a body part (counts as 1 per body part (each individual, not each :(group of body parts): ), addition of an interaction (entire interaction counts as 1 change), moving the positioning of code within a creature (counts as 0), a change in the names, description, prefstring, or creature tile (counts as 0), or addition of a creature variant (change cost is equal to the number of changes if the code within was added to the creature directly).  Material and tissue templates have to be tied to a rock or species.
• Entities, interactions, syndromes, reactions, items, languages, body part, and creature variations all are allowed to be created entirely from scratch.  Language source files (_words, _SYN, etc) are to be one single collaborated upon entity that are exempt from rule 1's naming convention.  Language files themselves (ex. _Dwarf, _Elf, etc) are up to the creator of the race to deal with and are not exempt from the rule.  Also, creature variations and body part groupings should have a total of the number of changes they are worth in their name, for convenience (ex. Arms_2changes_XYZ, Arms_6changes_XYZ).
• When we finally reach playable civilizations, try to make nothing that makes the game ridiculously easy or too punishingly hard.
• Use the changelog.  How to use it is contained within the log.
• If you make a playable race, post a guide on how to play it in the same area as the change log with the title "How to play as the [Race]" or something similar

In order to increase the speed of addition of new creatures, as well as make the process more organic by having copies of any other creatures that have been made, the files are hosted on Google Docs:
Link to the Mod (https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0B9I5x4YncReNOHg1UHI2RVk0NXM&usp=sharing)

To edit the files within the Google Drive after you have gotten access to the files, here is a native text editor for chrome. (https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/drive-notepad/gpgjomejfimnbmobcocilppikhncegaj?hl=en)

---

Spoiler: Thanks to (click to show/hide)

KingMurdoc (for the idea of modding a succession fort in progress that led to MDFification's idea)
MDFification (idea of making KingMurdoc's idea into a modding succession)
Halfling (borrowed your _shutupdf files for silencing the errors DF would create)

---

Current State of the World
The world is a hunk of water and obsidian floating through space with some moss and a bit of bacterial proto-life on it.  Some of the proto-life has adapted to feed upon its prior form, while others have evolved into colonies and moss-like plants.  The predatory life has evolved further into possessing a hardened shell, while the other has evolved to allow for greater movement.

Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress from a Primal State (Evolution-like Raw modding)
Post by: Chevaleresse on September 30, 2014, 05:04:42 pm

I'll sign on for this.

My DFFC hasn't actually started, btw.


Could I recommend a slight name change to Primal Dwarf Fortress? Rolls off the tongue a bit better, imo.

Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress from a Primal State (Evolution-like Raw modding)
Post by: Cptn Kaladin Anrizlokum on September 30, 2014, 05:12:20 pm

I'll just PTW for now, but I will probably work later.

Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress from a Primal State (Evolution-like Raw modding)
Post by: Chevaleresse on September 30, 2014, 05:14:12 pm

I should probably mention that I have zero experience modding creatures, but w/e.

Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress from a Primal State (Evolution-like Raw modding)
Post by: Zanzetkuken The Great on September 30, 2014, 07:54:11 pm

(Edited modding regulations to make prefstring, names, description, and creature tile cost 0 to the change total)

Some of the progenators have evolved into the first predator, the Gusk.  They are twenty times the size of the progenators, have fins, a tail, a mouth, a stomach, require food, are carnivores who hunt vermin (progenators), and are no longer benign.

Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress from a Primal State (Evolution-like Raw modding)
Post by: Prudent Viper on September 30, 2014, 08:06:03 pm

PTW

Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress from a Primal State (Evolution-like Raw modding)
Post by: Zanzetkuken The Great on September 30, 2014, 08:44:41 pm

I was thinking of moving this over to DF Modding instead.  Thoughts?

Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress from a Primal State (Evolution-like Raw modding)
Post by: Chevaleresse on September 30, 2014, 08:49:34 pm

I would cross-post it. Chances are there will be questions.


Edit: I'm DKM, if it wasn't clear.

Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress from a Primal State (Evolution-like Raw modding)
Post by: k33n on September 30, 2014, 11:49:59 pm

This is a really cool idea.

Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress from a Primal State (Evolution-like Raw modding)
Post by: Timeless Bob on October 01, 2014, 12:19:26 am

Yes - this is something I've had rolling around in the back of my mind for some time now - since before hearing about Spore, actually.  What's interesting about evolution games is the various "arms races" that the creatures go through to both maintain their ability to survive another generation as well as gain more resources.  The trick is to find the change in the status quo that either saves more resources for the next generation or gains more resources for this one.  What determines whether a creature is "evolutionarily fit"?  What contests are Players hoping to be seen as the most successful in, so that they can aim their patterns of change to fit that goal?

For godlike Players, the ability to add minerals willy-nilly may become more interesting if it's instead set up as a mini-game such as: who can create a layer of two or more minerals that resembles a checkerboard?  A sphere?  A maze?  How about mineral veins that evaporate on contact, creating sudden twisty tunnels and caverns, possibly filled with hidden treasures, just like Aladdin's cave of wonders, or possibly just leading to treacherous sinkholes...

Enough mini-games and challenges, to be entered or not as the Players wish, and soon the World will teem with life, dynamism and wonder.

Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress from a Primal State (Evolution-like Raw modding)
Post by: Cptn Kaladin Anrizlokum on October 01, 2014, 12:23:59 am

Question, why are they both Vermin:Fish and Vermin:Nofish?

Also, are you planning on changing the objects? Because it seems kind of odd to have pants and cauldrons already... Do you need those?

Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress from a Primal State (Evolution-like Raw modding)
Post by: Person on October 01, 2014, 03:14:23 am

Quote from: Cptn Kaladin Anrizlokum on October 01, 2014, 12:23:59 am

Also, are you planning on changing the objects? Because it seems kind of odd to have pants and cauldrons already... Do you need those?

From my past experience with the df from scratch threads, Dwarf Fortress dislikes when certain things are absent. It's hardcoded in the exe. The original creators sort of found a list of things that they needed to keep in or work around if they didn't want dwarf fortress to hard crash. If I recall correctly the root of the problem is that worldgen expects certain types of things to exist by default. You can indeed go about changing the names of these things, but I'd recommend asking before you change the files with all the clothes and cauldrons and such, given their importance. All that's in the far future though. This project is far from being worldgen ready, but I'm watching nonetheless. But yeah consider leaving these files behind for now to remind potential recruits how those sorts of items work. Seriously considering brushing up on my modding skills to join one of these. Maybe I'll make a wagon pulling animal or something. Which reminds me that wagons no longer exist, meaning we can do silly things with wagons. I'll stop talking now.

Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress from a Primal State (Evolution-like Raw modding)
Post by: Zanzetkuken The Great on October 01, 2014, 05:56:14 am

Quote from: Cptn Kaladin Anrizlokum on October 01, 2014, 12:23:59 am

Question, why are they both Vermin:Fish and Vermin:Nofish?

From the information I had, the former causes it to be designated as a fish (which could be necessary for water-based pathfinding, for all I know), but the latter prevents it from being caught by fishermen.

Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress from a Primal State (Evolution-like Raw modding)
Post by: IndigoFenix on October 01, 2014, 09:25:25 am

I'll sign up too.

Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress from a Primal State (Evolution-like Raw modding)
Post by: Zanzetkuken The Great on October 01, 2014, 02:28:27 pm

Indigo, you have a typo in your second creature.  You have two body sizes marked for the exact same time.  I've added the species to the changelog.  Please remember to add them in the future.

Edit: Added a chart that can be used to chart the evolution of all the species.

Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress from a Primal World (Evolution-like Raw modding)
Post by: Chevaleresse on October 01, 2014, 04:28:25 pm

If only I knew anything about creature modding.

Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress from a Primal World (Evolution-like Raw modding)
Post by: Zanzetkuken The Great on October 01, 2014, 04:38:58 pm

Quote from: KingMurdoc on October 01, 2014, 04:28:25 pm

If only I knew anything about creature modding.

Here's some stuff that might be able to help:

Guide on the wiki migrated from 34.11 (http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2014:Modding_guide)
Hub for all the pages that detail the tokens (http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/Category:DF2014:Tokens)
An export of the default raws on the wiki you can use as a reference (http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/Category:DF2014:Raws)

Also, the regular dwarf raws in creature_standard.txt have a close to step-by-step deciphering of the aspects of creatures.

If you don't feel like doing creatures, though, we do need other stuff, such as plants and rocks.

Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress from a Primal World (Evolution-like Raw modding)
Post by: Zanzetkuken The Great on October 01, 2014, 06:51:00 pm

-Double posting since this is slightly urgent to consider-

I reduced the body size of the Propagators from 1 to 10, because I realized that it meant that a single cell is defined as size 10 in this before the edit.  For reference, a single vanilla squirrel is 300...

What's the max size we can allocate to body size?  I think we are going to encounter a problem...

Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress from a Primal World (Evolution-like Raw modding)
Post by: Timeless Bob on October 01, 2014, 07:23:18 pm

I think the "size" stat relates to relative mass rather than a linear scale of length.  1/300th the mass of a squirrel is @ 600g/300 or 2g.  So "Size 1" = @2g.  The biggest land animal is @3000kg (African bull elephant), which would be "Size 1,500,000" if the "size" stat were linear.  Instead, we should look at the "size" raws for elephants and see where they are because Size might be a log or exponential function instead, which allows for both very small and very large creatures.

Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress from a Primal World (Evolution-like Raw modding)
Post by: Zanzetkuken The Great on October 01, 2014, 07:38:43 pm

Quote from: Timeless Bob on October 01, 2014, 07:23:18 pm

I think the "size" stat relates to relative mass rather than a linear scale of length.  1/300th the mass of a squirrel is @ 600g/300 or 2g.  So "Size 1" = @2g.  The biggest land animal is @3000kg (African bull elephant), which would be "Size 1,500,000" if the "size" stat were linear.  Instead, we should look at the "size" raws for elephants and see where they are because Size might be a log or exponential function instead, which allows for both very small and very large creatures.

Largest tag for the elephant raws has the number at 5,000,000.

If the upper limit is high enough, then we might be able to use it to represent each 1 represent a single cell of an organism.  If it is lower, we'll just have each 1 represent 10^X number of cells.  The microscopic levels would basically mean that is the total number in cluster.

Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress from a Primal World (Evolution-like Raw modding)
Post by: Chevaleresse on October 01, 2014, 10:38:38 pm

These proto-animals could theoretically be quite large, too. There are species of amoeba visible to the naked eye, for example.

Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress from a Primal World (Evolution-like Raw modding)
Post by: Timeless Bob on October 01, 2014, 11:33:33 pm

We could call the basic goo "Primal Plasm" if we liked.

Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress from a Primal World (Evolution-like Raw modding)
Post by: IndigoFenix on October 02, 2014, 04:16:39 am

I'm a little iffy about our starting point, to be honest.  I think the first creature should probably be a simple  undifferentiated mass of cells (like a regular DF sponge), not a single 'cell' which is made up entirely of "cell membrane".  Helps with the fuzzy issue of a single cell 'evolving' into a multi cellular organism by adding parts...which doesn't make much sense biologically speaking.

Also, it should probably be immobile and lack extra vision.. Motion and senses should be evolutionary upgrades, I think.

Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress from a Primal World (Evolution-like Raw modding)
Post by: Zanzetkuken The Great on October 02, 2014, 12:20:20 pm

Found out the max body size is at 100,000,000.  As it is measured in cm^3, let's leave the body size at 1 until a creature gets to that size.

Quote from: IndigoFenix on October 02, 2014, 04:16:39 am

I'm a little iffy about our starting point, to be honest.  I think the first creature should probably be a simple  undifferentiated mass of cells (like a regular DF sponge), not a single 'cell' which is made up entirely of "cell membrane".  Helps with the fuzzy issue of a single cell 'evolving' into a multi cellular organism by adding parts...which doesn't make much sense biologically speaking.

Also, it should probably be immobile and lack extra vision.. Motion and senses should be evolutionary upgrades, I think.

On the former: I did have [VERMIN_MICRO], which marks them as swarms.  I'm probably going to change up the other organism I made, but the Gusk as they stand are basically a tube of cells with one end closed off, the fins being structures to direct their glide through the water.  Their mouth is just the opening to the inside of the tube, and the 'stomach' is a holding area for the bacteria inside that breaks down the cells of other organisms.
On the latter: I didn't add immobile, since currents can push them around and many single cellular organisms are able to move around under their own power, but I will pull out extravision.  Anyone who has made a creature will need to change this as well.

Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress from a Primal World (Evolution-like Raw modding)
Post by: cyberTripping on October 02, 2014, 03:32:20 pm

this is relevant to my interests.

I may have to go learn creature modding...

Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress from a Primal World (Evolution-like Raw modding)
Post by: Zanzetkuken The Great on October 02, 2014, 04:24:58 pm

Quote from: cyberTripping on October 02, 2014, 03:32:20 pm

I may have to go learn creature modding...

Don't forget rocks, soils, plants, and the such are all options as well.

Anyway, I've added the Vlealn.  They have an opaque, blue outer shell, and have another creature class on them.   Latter is a personal practice I am going to be doing of every other odd numbered creature from the Progenators is going to have its own class, so that viruses and the such when they are eventually implemented can have varying degrees of broadness, but every other so the raws don't get ridiculously full of creature classes.

Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress from a Primal World (Evolution-like Raw modding)
Post by: Timeless Bob on October 03, 2014, 08:12:45 pm

I submit that creatures be given "biome" distinctions as well as "predator" and "prey" lists to determine where they are in the food webs of each biome.  We can determine this in the following manner: In area mode, an amount of the new species equal to the size of that creature is pitted against up to five other species of creature.
Each Creature must be pitted against one or more creatures whose total Sizes equal theirs (ie: 3 "Size 1" creatures vs 1 "Size 3" creature)
  The creature or creature group that survives combat in a minimum of two or three arena mode contests becomes their opponent's "predator", while the one that is killed a minimum of two out of three times becomes their opponent's "prey". 

For each new predator added to a species' list, they should gain +2 mutations available, while for each new prey added to a species' list, they should add +1 mutation available.  In this way, successful predators will maintain their basic shape much more than prey animals will and the frequency that any specific creature enters contests determines how specialized their diets will be in the resulting food web.  (Pandas and mosquitos anyone?)

Animals with the "Grazing" tag (ie: herbivores), could still contest to be considered prey or not, adding a mutation for NOT becoming a prey animal rather than actually adding their defeated opponent as "prey".

Pretty soon, a food web would emerge and this kind of thing could be done for each biome too, unless really successful species attempted to "compete" in other biomes as well (adding a biome tag to their description).

It could be really fun.  Sorta like "fantasy football".

Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress from a Primal World (Evolution-like Raw modding)
Post by: Zanzetkuken The Great on October 03, 2014, 08:24:43 pm

Attacks will have to emerg first.  I'll go in nnd justify the Gusk and Vlealn as predators through that  system by adding a couple attack tags to them.  Not going to put in any mutations besides hat, though, since that would be all I would want to do with the creatures.

Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress from a Primal World (Evolution-like Raw modding)
Post by: FallenAngel on October 03, 2014, 08:59:34 pm

I'm going to watch this, maybe jump later.

Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress from a Primal World (Evolution-like Raw modding)
Post by: Timeless Bob on October 03, 2014, 09:02:00 pm

Quote from: Zanzetkuken The Great on October 03, 2014, 08:24:43 pm

Attacks will have to emerg first.  I'll go in nnd justify the Gusk and Vlealn as predators through that  system by adding a couple attack tags to them.  Not going to put in any mutations besides hat, though, since that would be all I would want to do with the creatures.

I figure the "base" creature would have a pool of "possible number of mutations" based on their score, which new species using that base would use up to change a maximum number of things (or one thing increased up to that maximum value - Size change up or down of the same basic organism takes as much "mutation" as maintaining size and increasing or decreasing some other attribute, or adding or removing that number of tags in the raws altogether)

Initially, this would be arbitrary, as both sets of creatures could mutually avoid the other and get 1 mutation "credit" for NOT becoming the other creature's prey.  However, creating a predator specifically to gain the +2 mutation credits for being a "prey" species would allow Players to make new top predators more quickly than other creatures that just always avoid each-other, which starts the ball rolling and snowballs things from there.

Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress from a Primal World (Evolution-like Raw modding)
Post by: Lost in Nowhere on October 03, 2014, 10:05:19 pm

This looks like an interesting idea, whatever it is exactly.

Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress from a Primal World (Evolution-like Raw modding)
Post by: Chevaleresse on October 03, 2014, 11:51:37 pm

I attempted to make some plants. Phytozoa may now coat the ocean floor.

Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress from a Primal World (Evolution-like Raw modding)
Post by: IndigoFenix on October 04, 2014, 12:10:15 pm

From an evolutionary standpoint, results in arena battles would have very little to do with the biological fitness of a creature.  Most animals survive by avoiding fights whenever possible, producing large amounts of offspring can easily offset the low survivibility rate of an individual, and increased size and strength of a creature often comes at the price of increased food requirements.  Results in a fight should be relevant only in cases where results in a fight are logically relevant.

I guess it would make sense for us to try to come up with plausible justifications for why an organism should evolve in a particular way and what environmental pressures gave them incentive to do so, but it would be hard to set any real hard rules on the system.  We'll just have to leave it up to the community.

Also, as for attacks... primitive predators, especially verminhunters, don't necessarily need them.  The first predators IRL simply swallowed their (much smaller) prey whole.  The first weapon-like body parts (for attacking similar-sized creatures), teeth, were a later development.

Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress from a Primal World (Evolution-like Raw modding)
Post by: Chevaleresse on October 05, 2014, 05:06:41 pm

oh yeah feel free to correct any mistakes in my stuff

Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress from a Primal World (Evolution-like Raw modding)
Post by: Timeless Bob on October 05, 2014, 05:59:11 pm

Quote from: IndigoFenix on October 04, 2014, 12:10:15 pm

From an evolutionary standpoint, results in arena battles would have very little to do with the biological fitness of a creature.  Most animals survive by avoiding fights whenever possible, producing large amounts of offspring can easily offset the low survivibility rate of an individual, and increased size and strength of a creature often comes at the price of increased food requirements.  Results in a fight should be relevant only in cases where results in a fight are logically relevant.

I guess it would make sense for us to try to come up with plausible justifications for why an organism should evolve in a particular way and what environmental pressures gave them incentive to do so, but it would be hard to set any real hard rules on the system.  We'll just have to leave it up to the community.

Also, as for attacks... primitive predators, especially verminhunters, don't necessarily need them.  The first predators IRL simply swallowed their (much smaller) prey whole.  The first weapon-like body parts (for attacking similar-sized creatures), teeth, were a later development.

Yes, I see your point.  I was thinking that the system could be symbolic of interacting populations to produce a dynamic mini-game that Players could attempt to dominate through careful design and that encouraged proliferation of species via a process of change from past successes/failures rather than "this is neat, so just because".  However, "this is neat" might work very well in a specific biome until territorial disputes give cause to see if one species transplants another in vying for common resources.

Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress from a Primal World (Evolution-like Raw modding)
Post by: Zanzetkuken The Great on October 05, 2014, 06:06:11 pm

Quote from: KingMurdoc on October 03, 2014, 11:51:37 pm

I attempted to make some plants. Phytozoa may now coat the ocean floor.

I'm guessing it is an evolution of the moss that currently exists?

Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress from a Primal World (Evolution-like Raw modding)
Post by: FallenAngel on October 05, 2014, 06:46:10 pm

Once more of the small details are sorted out, I'll get in on this.
Also I'm waiting for small bits of established things to be, well, established.
If that makes any sense.
I confused myself.

Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress from a Primal World (Evolution-like Raw modding)
Post by: Zanzetkuken The Great on October 05, 2014, 07:05:51 pm

Quote from: FallenAngel on October 05, 2014, 06:46:10 pm

Once more of the small details are sorted out, I'll get in on this.
Also I'm waiting for small bits of established things to be, well, established.
If that makes any sense.
I confused myself.

You're wanting to start work when there are more creatures to build off of?

Could build up the rocks and soil in the mean time.  Right now all we have is obsidian, and ground-down obsidian.

Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress from a Primal World (Evolution-like Raw modding)
Post by: Cptn Kaladin Anrizlokum on October 05, 2014, 07:31:19 pm

So questions, could I make creatures out of obsidian?
And are we taking turns, or just all at once?

Because if yes/no, obsidian life is a go.

Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress from a Primal World (Evolution-like Raw modding)
Post by: Zanzetkuken The Great on October 05, 2014, 07:51:53 pm

Quote from: Cptn Kaladin Anrizlokum on October 05, 2014, 07:31:19 pm

So questions, could I make creatures out of obsidian?
And are we taking turns, or just all at once?

Because if yes/no, obsidian life is a go.

A) All at once
B) Use the material template for rock.  I mapped Obsidian's stats for it.  So, the material aspect could go in a jump.  I would prefer if you slowly scale up the tissue, rather than having that go up all at once.

Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress from a Primal World (Evolution-like Raw modding)
Post by: Chevaleresse on October 05, 2014, 07:55:28 pm

Quote from: Zanzetkuken The Great on October 05, 2014, 06:06:11 pm

Quote from: KingMurdoc on October 03, 2014, 11:51:37 pm

I attempted to make some plants. Phytozoa may now coat the ocean floor.

I'm guessing it is an evolution of the moss that currently exists?

They arose from the existing bacterial colonies; they gained the ability to photosynthesize and send out seeds in exchange for mobility.

Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress from a Primal World (Evolution-like Raw modding)
Post by: Cptn Kaladin Anrizlokum on October 05, 2014, 07:56:43 pm

Quote from: Zanzetkuken The Great on October 05, 2014, 07:51:53 pm

Quote from: Cptn Kaladin Anrizlokum on October 05, 2014, 07:31:19 pm

So questions, could I make creatures out of obsidian?
And are we taking turns, or just all at once?

Because if yes/no, obsidian life is a go.

A) All at once
B) Use the material template for rock.  I mapped Obsidian's stats for it.  So, the material aspect could go in a jump.  I would prefer if you slowly scale up the tissue, rather than having that go up all at once.

Yeah, I was planning on making an obsidian shell, like a hermit crab blob, then slowly turning it into a crystalline creature... Would that work?

Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress from a Primal World (Evolution-like Raw modding)
Post by: Zanzetkuken The Great on October 05, 2014, 08:10:38 pm

Quote from: Cptn Kaladin Anrizlokum on October 05, 2014, 07:56:43 pm

Yeah, I was planning on making an obsidian shell, like a hermit crab blob, then slowly turning it into a crystalline creature... Would that work?

I have no problem with it.

Quote from: KingMurdoc on October 05, 2014, 07:55:28 pm

They arose from the existing bacterial colonies; they gained the ability to photosynthesize and send out seeds in exchange for mobility.

I'm gonna cut out the moss, now that we have an actual plant.

Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress from a Primal World (Evolution-like Raw modding)
Post by: FallenAngel on October 05, 2014, 09:00:05 pm

Quote from: Zanzetkuken The Great on October 05, 2014, 07:05:51 pm

Quote from: FallenAngel on October 05, 2014, 06:46:10 pm

Once more of the small details are sorted out, I'll get in on this.
Also I'm waiting for small bits of established things to be, well, established.
If that makes any sense.
I confused myself.

You're wanting to start work when there are more creatures to build off of?

Could build up the rocks and soil in the mean time.  Right now all we have is obsidian, and ground-down obsidian.

I'll do that in the morning when I may care more, or tomorrow afternoon, when what I do will make some sense.

Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress from a Primal World (Evolution-like Raw modding)
Post by: Chevaleresse on October 05, 2014, 09:14:28 pm

i sort of forgot we had moss >.>

Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress from a Primal World (Evolution-like Raw modding)
Post by: Zanzetkuken The Great on October 05, 2014, 09:25:53 pm

Quote from: KingMurdoc on October 05, 2014, 09:14:28 pm

i sort of forgot we had moss >.>

Since it didn't have an evolutionary connection, I scrapped the moss.  I changed the connection of your stuff to the Progenitor, so now we have three branches, plants, herbivores, and carnivores.  We can have a nice little evolutionary war if we tag the first of each branch with a creature class that marks it from that part.

Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress from a Primal World (Evolution-like Raw modding)
Post by: Chevaleresse on October 05, 2014, 10:13:36 pm

I should mention that there are two forms of that plant; one is a grass-like substance, and the other exists as "colonies"/shrubs. So if we wanted grazers, now could be the time.

Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress from a Primal World (Evolution-like Raw modding)
Post by: k33n on October 05, 2014, 10:14:42 pm

I would totally illustrate some of this if I can get a link to the specific creatures and raws. learn how to accurately read the raws :)

Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress from a Primal World (Evolution-like Raw modding)
Post by: Timeless Bob on October 06, 2014, 02:02:39 am

A dwarf fortress tree of life: OK, that would be an awesome illustration.

Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress from a Primal World (Evolution-like Raw modding)
Post by: k33n on October 06, 2014, 02:20:18 am

(http://i.imgur.com/eKhS5Pc.png)

The world as it is now, an ocean floor of black sand and obsidian, carpeted by phytozoa, as bloblike creatures float in the currents, preyed upon by Zusk and Vlealn

Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress from a Primal World (Evolution-like Raw modding)
Post by: Halfling on October 06, 2014, 07:33:08 am

I highly approve of this. The narrative aspect captivates the imagination. Good job, ZtG.

Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress from a Primal World (Evolution-like Raw modding)
Post by: Prudent Viper on October 06, 2014, 07:50:49 am

k33n, that is just sublime.

Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress from a Primal World (Evolution-like Raw modding)
Post by: Timeless Bob on October 06, 2014, 10:48:11 am

Quote from: Prudent Viper on October 06, 2014, 07:50:49 am

k33n, that is just sublime.

Seconded.  The darkly protean nature of the method you've created this speaks of new potentials and untested waters.  Well done!

---

I just thought of something: suppose we put a URL in the "description" portion that linked to an image file somewhere online (or possibly in an "image" file bundled with the program)?  Like linking to a picture of obsidian in the description of the obsidian?  That could work for animals, devices, syndromes, ect...  Of course, DF doesn't allow copy/paste, so each web address would have to be hand copied from the description to the address box on a browser, but any old weird thing we put in we can say, "here, this is a <insert thing here>." without having to worry about the character string limitations in descriptions.  (Actually, not sure if this would work - just looked through the inorganic_land portion and don't really see what the game reads in response to the loo'k' command in adventure or fortress mode that produces the "This is a ..." message.)

Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress from a Primal World (Evolution-like Raw modding)
Post by: Cptn Kaladin Anrizlokum on October 06, 2014, 05:03:54 pm

Wow, the drive format is really hard to use on my computer, I can't even open a file correctly...

Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress from a Primal World (Evolution-like Raw modding)
Post by: Zanzetkuken The Great on October 06, 2014, 05:05:58 pm

Quote from: Cptn Kaladin Anrizlokum on October 06, 2014, 05:03:54 pm

Wow, the drive format is really hard to use on my computer, I can't even open a file correctly...

Are you trying to use Drive Notepad that I linked the line after the mod's link?

Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress from a Primal World (Evolution-like Raw modding)
Post by: DVNO on October 08, 2014, 12:33:12 pm

Awesome idea!

And it's so cool you are using my Google Drive format, too. I'd always hoped it would take off and be of use to other projects.

You might want a second layer of protection though, as someone can just delete everything. What I did was create the project in a public Drive folder locally, then made a Github project one directory above that folder, effectively wrapping the constantly syncing folder in a program that's built for securely handling constantly evolving projects. It thinks I'm making changes to the work but I'm not - I'm just updating my Google Drive folder with everyone else's contributions.

So, as long as I remember to push the folder on to github every once and a while, there will always be a public backup that is untouchable to all but to me, the moderator. Much less scary than 'here internet, do what you want pls don't break it k?'

I'll see if I can whip up some aquatic plants soon, I'd like to push a strain in that direction.       

Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress from a Primal World (Evolution-like Raw modding)
Post by: Zanzetkuken The Great on October 08, 2014, 01:07:34 pm

I have the files backed up in a zip drive on my computer.  I update about once a week, if stuff has been done to the files, that is.

Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress from a Primal World (Evolution-like Raw modding)
Post by: cyberTripping on October 09, 2014, 12:10:53 am

added a new soil type, sediment. Yup.

Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress from a Primal World (Evolution-like Raw modding)
Post by: 94dima94 on October 09, 2014, 04:00:11 am

PTW, this already looks amazing.

Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress from a Primal World (Evolution-like Raw modding)
Post by: Zanzetkuken The Great on October 09, 2014, 12:08:01 pm

Going to need to have Indigo reduce the size of his creatures sometime, unless his creatures have acheived over a cm³.

Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress from a Primal World (Evolution-like Raw modding)
Post by: IndigoFenix on October 09, 2014, 01:02:40 pm

Quote from: Zanzetkuken The Great on October 09, 2014, 12:08:01 pm

Going to need to have Indigo reduce the size of his creatures sometime, unless his creatures have acheived over a cm³.

They are aggregate colonies of the former, single-celled life forms, like volvox.  *shrug*  I guess I'm just in a hurry to reach larger, non-vermin scales.  Because vermin don't really work as creatures proper in the game... they can't react to other creatures, fight (except with vermin bites, which only works on non-vermin), reproduce, or eat.  Vermin predators won't hunt other vermin, either.

Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress from a Primal World (Evolution-like Raw modding)
Post by: Zanzetkuken The Great on October 09, 2014, 03:41:28 pm

Quote from: IndigoFenix on October 09, 2014, 01:02:40 pm

They are aggregate colonies of the former, single-celled life forms, like volvox.  *shrug*  I guess I'm just in a hurry to reach larger, non-vermin scales.  Because vermin don't really work as creatures proper in the game... they can't react to other creatures, fight (except with vermin bites, which only works on non-vermin), reproduce, or eat.  Vermin predators won't hunt other vermin, either.

That's why I am going to spend the next update for my creatures entirely for creating organs to function as a larger than 1cm³ creature.

Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress from a Primal World (Evolution-like Raw modding)
Post by: Timeless Bob on October 09, 2014, 06:30:15 pm

As a tangent, did you know that there are non-photosynthetic plants that grow in darkness because they have a mutualistic relationship to a certain type of fungus?  Check it out. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myco-heterotrophy)  I think I just found the real-world equivalent of dwarven farming...

Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress from a Primal World (Evolution-like Raw modding)
Post by: Zanzetkuken The Great on October 09, 2014, 08:21:21 pm

So...the way I have the next predator in the Gusk descendant chain working is that their internal organs are routed to have them sweat out the blood of the creatures they feast upon.

Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress from a Primal World (Evolution-like Raw modding)
Post by: Chevaleresse on October 09, 2014, 08:33:15 pm

I was gonna make an evolved herbivore that was simply much larger than the Gusk as a survival mechanism, but needed to graze to survive.

Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress from a Primal World (Evolution-like Raw modding)
Post by: Zanzetkuken The Great on October 09, 2014, 08:36:13 pm

Quote from: KingMurdoc on October 09, 2014, 08:33:15 pm

I was gonna make an evolved herbivore that was simply much larger than the Gusk as a survival mechanism, but needed to graze to survive.

As we don't have any creatures above a centimeter, anything like that is just going to be cosmetic fluff at this point.

Edit: Added the Strith.  Basically all the changes were is to give them organs.

Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress from a Primal World (Evolution-like Raw modding)
Post by: Zanzetkuken The Great on October 10, 2014, 11:27:30 am

Reworked the Chart to mark how far removed from the Proginator a race is, red placeholder boxes for where creatures/plants do not exist yet, gave it a background, and reorganized it to include the boxes that had been placed within as red.

Also, I'm making a slight change to the rulings that adding [CREATURE_CLASS:CAME_FROM_*], where the * is the creature you are working on, is a free change on creatures with an even number 'stage'.  This is so we can build viruses for specific branches, since I doubt people besides me would want to burn a change just making a [CREATURE_CLASS:] token.

Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress from a Primal World (Evolution-like Raw modding)
Post by: Zanzetkuken The Great on October 13, 2014, 02:23:58 pm

The Gusk line has now scaled out of the microscopic with the Odrur.

Edit: Indigo, you fix the size of your creatures?

Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress from a Primal World (Evolution-like Raw modding)
Post by: gamerscout on October 25, 2014, 06:26:15 pm

Ptw

Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress from a Primal World (Evolution-like Raw modding)
Post by: Timeless Bob on October 26, 2014, 01:56:01 am

Do you suppose the reason RL creatures have had about twelve periods of die-offs/sudden speciation is because it's really just a world-builder forum game and that's how many times its been necroed?

Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress from a Primal World (Evolution-like Raw modding)
Post by: Chevaleresse on October 26, 2014, 02:22:23 am

^^Then why don't we have a flying human caste yet?

Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress from a Primal World (Evolution-like Raw modding)
Post by: Zanzetkuken The Great on October 26, 2014, 08:28:26 am

Quote from: KingMurdoc on October 26, 2014, 02:22:23 am

^^Then why don't we have a flying human caste yet?

Because they have to use more complicated code.

Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress from a Primal World (Evolution-like Raw modding)
Post by: Cerapter on October 26, 2014, 09:47:12 am

PTW.

Unless it is dead. Then forget it.

I'd participate actually, but first, I want to understand the rules and how to do stuff. Seems kind of mucky to me yet...
I'm gonna read it again, and if that doesn't work, read it again after I'm a bit less tired.

Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress from a Primal World (Evolution-like Raw modding)
Post by: Timeless Bob on October 27, 2014, 12:31:20 am

Flying human caste?  You mean pilots?

Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress from a Primal World (Evolution-like Raw modding)
Post by: Zanzetkuken The Great on October 28, 2014, 07:40:26 am

I'm curious as to the reason that so few people are modding.  Can those who aren't explain why?

Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress from a Primal World (Evolution-like Raw modding)
Post by: Cerapter on October 28, 2014, 09:31:33 am

I'd like to.
But first, pardon me for being dense, but explain that diagram, and if there's anything not mentioned in the OP.
And whether this project is dead or not.

Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress from a Primal World (Evolution-like Raw modding)
Post by: Zanzetkuken The Great on October 28, 2014, 10:13:09 am

Quote from: Cerapter on October 28, 2014, 09:31:33 am

I'd like to.
But first, pardon me for being dense, but explain that diagram, and if there's anything not mentioned in the OP.
And whether this project is dead or not.

If you are refering to the one you see when you first enter the folder, then that is a simple chart to track the evolutionary lineage.
The only thing I don't think is in the OP is a mentioning of, for every even numbered stage, the addition of a [CREATURE_CLASS:CAME_FROM_X], where X is that creature's name, is a free addition, so that if people deign to make viruses in the future, there is a variety of levels you can choose from, rather than it being all or nothing.  (Should be noted when editting that Indigo's creatures need to have their sizes tweaked, as I think they are still on the microscopic side of things, so would need their body size to be 1.  His latest one might not be, but I need confirmation.  If you want to have a for sure out of microscopic, then use the Odrur as a base.)
A project like this would only go into a temporary stasis, waiting for someone to work on it.

Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress from a Primal World (Evolution-like Raw modding)
Post by: Cerapter on October 28, 2014, 10:54:49 am

Oh, by the way, Zan, your raws lack the txt extension. Or lacked the last time I checked.

Also, can I start from any creature, assuming I want to make a creature?
And can I do multiple turns one after another? Because I think if so, that would wreck the point of this.

Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress from a Primal World (Evolution-like Raw modding)
Post by: Zanzetkuken The Great on October 28, 2014, 12:17:54 pm

Quote from: Cerapter on October 28, 2014, 10:54:49 am

Oh, by the way, Zan, your raws lack the txt extension. Or lacked the last time I checked.

Correction: It just isn't displayed in the title.  Drive Notepad saves it as such (only openable in that as well, as a consequence).

Quote from: Cerapter on October 28, 2014, 10:54:49 am

Also, can I start from any creature, assuming I want to make a creature?
And can I do multiple turns one after another? Because I think if so, that would wreck the point of this.

You can build off of any existing creature (make sure to note what it came from, and keep in mind of what I said about Indigo's creatures).

There's no turns.  You just add as you can, any time you can, and post what you added here, in the changelog, and add a branch to the Evolutionary Chart.  Don't worry about 'wrecking' this, some are wanting to wait for a later time before starting up what they want to do.

Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress from a Primal World (Evolution-like Raw modding)
Post by: Cerapter on October 28, 2014, 01:02:29 pm

For that evolution chart, I'd suggest a more specialised diagram creator program that is downloadable for Drive, but I guess we must keep it non-drive-user-friendly, right?

Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress from a Primal World (Evolution-like Raw modding)
Post by: Cerapter on November 08, 2014, 09:01:55 am

Finally got around making stuff.

Quote

The Zord evolve from the Odrur. Though they haven’t put much forward in terms of aggressive or defensive power, they are starting to get divided with the total of four castes, all with varying maximum ages. They are also capable of two different types of reproduction.
A new type of stone, called terrock, has appeared on the surface of this bare world, bringing with it a few other inorganic materials. Maybe later, many thousand years later, a civilisation will be able to work with these new materials.
A new reaction called “rework” has been made. It is an automatic reaction, and is best used for stuff that can be reworked to a better version of themselves, and whose lower level version has no advantage over the higher level one.

Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress from a Primal World (Evolution-like Raw modding)
Post by: Timeless Bob on November 08, 2014, 02:14:23 pm

instead of "rework", why not name it "refine"?

Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress from a Primal World (Evolution-like Raw modding)
Post by: Cerapter on November 08, 2014, 04:39:20 pm

Sure, why not.

Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress from a Primal World (Evolution-like Raw modding)
Post by: FallenAngel on February 07, 2015, 08:17:30 pm

I plan to start adding stuff to this soonish.
Let's keep this going.

Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress from a Primal World (Evolution-like Raw modding)
Post by: Timeless Bob on February 09, 2015, 11:22:22 am

Booya!

Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress from a Primal World (Evolution-like Raw modding)
Post by: Zanzetkuken The Great on February 09, 2015, 12:35:46 pm

Appears from the evolution chart that the Gusk line is the most evolved.  The Zord is new (as in, its not in my files) so I am curious as to who created it.