Post by: TheDarkStar on November 05, 2014, 10:41:40 pm
Beginner's Mafia 51
The setting is Nevada, 1947. You and eight other people are workers at a certain government research site. Unknown to the public, this area is devoted to the study of extraterrestrials. Over the last two decades this site has helped drive some of the most important technological advances through the study of alien artifacts, including the Manhattan project. A few days ago, an alien spacecraft was shot down in the Arizona desert and you and the other eight workers collected and transported the debris to the government base. The alien's bodies were never found. Then two unrecognizable bodies were found in one of the transport trucks.
You and the other eight people are now under suspicion. Two of you are aliens and seven of you are normal people. Two of you are senior officials with experience with this, but there is a chance that one of them was replaced. A few of you are members of security and can use your privileges to better find the aliens. And while you attempt to discover the imposters, a third alien directs his minions from orbit.
Player List [7/7]:
ScriptenTown Cop!- Deus Asmoth
Execute/Dumbo.exeDorsidwarfmasked_krusader4maskwolf Mk. IIComrade ShamrockTown JailkeeperRangerCadoNotQuiteThere Mafia Goon- Scintillant[/s] Vanilla Townsperson
ICs [2/2]:
Superblackcat4maskwolfVanilla TownspersonPersus13 CheeetarVanilla Townsperson!
Scum IC [1/1]:
- Silthuri
Replacements [0/∞]:
- This could be you!
Introduction
Welcome to Beginner's Mafia 51. As the title suggests, this game is for beginners. If you have no idea how to play or you have some experience but you're still not quite sure what to do, then this is the right place for you. If you sign up, you have one goal: Learn how to play the game of mafia. Since this is not an easy thing to do on your own and we wouldn't dream of forcing you to do it, you will be assisted by two 'inexperience challenged' players, or ICs. The ICs are experienced players on the board who have signed up to help you learn. You can always trust that the advice they give is genuine, however, you cannot always trust the IC, as they are players in the game and have the same likelihood of being scum as every other single player.
If this is your first time playing, keep in mind that games of forum mafia take several weeks, and can sometimes run longer than a month, and that you are expected to be able to play continuously through that time. If you can't anticipate being able to play for that long for whatever reason, then maybe the game of mafia isn't for you. But if it is, then welcome to the mafia subforum, and I hope you have a great time playing.
Gameplay and Concept
The game of mafia has a simple concept. A large group of players known as the town plays against a smaller group of players known as the mafia. In this setup, there are nine players, with seven town and two mafia.
Before the game begins, each players is given a role and an alignment by the moderator. There are two alignments in this setup: Town and Mafia. The town outnumber the mafia, but each individual member of the town does not know the alignment of any of the other members. The mafia know the alignment of everyone on their team and they can discuss the game privately in a special mafia chat. The mafia has access to a nightkill that they may use in the Night phase, while the town occasionally has roles with abilities that are used during the night.
Once everyone has a role, the game begins in the Day phase. During the Day phase, players may discuss the game and each player has a vote that they cast publicly to lynch a player. At the end of the day after some predetermined amount of time, the player with the most votes is lynched. Lynching does two things: it reveals a player's role and alignment, and it removes a player from the game. Once lynched, a player is no longer allowed to post in the thread.
Once the day ends, the game proceeds to Night. During the Night, discussion is prohibited. The mafia team picks a target to nightkill. If available, any town power roles use their actions as well. At the end of the night, the target the mafia chose to nightkill has their role and alignment revealed, and that player is removed from the game in a similar way to being lynched. Once the night ends, the game proceeds to another Day.
Both teams win by eliminating the other. However, due to the nature of the teams, they win very differently. The town win by finding and lynching the mafia, while the mafia win by avoiding being lynched and nightkilling.
Potential Roles
Vanilla Townie - A member of the town with no special abilities.
Vanilla Mafioso - A member of the mafia with no special abilities.
Cop (Town) - A cop may choose to inspect a single player during the night and learn that player's alignment.
Jailkeeper (Town) - A combination of a Roleblocker and a Doctor, a Jailkeeper both protects and blocks the target from acting during the night.
Role Cop (Mafia) - Much like the Town Cop counterpart, the Role Cop investigates a single other during the night to learn their role, instead of their alignment.
This is still an experimental setup (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=126082.msg4252536#msg4252536)
The only role that receives the success of their results in this setup is the Cop and Rolecop. All other roles are not informed if they were successful or not.
One of the following setups is used:
1. 1 Mafioso, 1 Mafia Role Cop, 5 Vanilla Townies, Sane Cop, Jailkeeper.
2. 1 Mafioso, 1 Mafia Role Cop, 6 Vanilla Townies, Sane Cop.
3. 1 Mafioso, 1 Mafia Role Cop, 6 Vanilla Townies, Jailkeeper.Spoiler: Possible Role PMs (click to show/hide)
Notes about the ICs
The ICs are here solely to teach new players how to play, but remember, they are also players in the game. This means they have the same chance to be scum as any other player and it is entirely possible for one IC or even both ICs to be scum. Regardless of their alignment, they are obligated to provide you with genuine advice, so that even if you don't trust the IC, you can trust the advice they give. Some ICs will use a special 'IC voice' to alert players that they are delivering honest, unfiltered advice, while some don't.
The ICs have the special privilege of being able to talk while dead. This is so that they can continue to give advice even if they are killed during the course of the game.
Rules- Voting - Votes are cast in red and should include the name of the targeted player. Other colors may be ignored. Urist Imiknorris, Urist, UI, and UI you scummy scum!, are all acceptable ways to cast a vote if the target is clear enough.
- If you want to remove your vote, you may put unvote in red text. You must explicitly state this to remove your vote. You may put the name of the player you are unvoting in red after the unvote, e.g., unvote UI, but it is not required.
- If the day ends with two or more people having the same number of votes, the day will end with no player being lynched.
- It is also possible to vote for a no lynch to explicitly end the day without a lynch.
- Death - When you are dead, you are prohibited from posting in the thread. You may make a single 'bah' post after you die, however, it must not contain any game-related information.
- PMs - PMs between players are prohibited. You may freely PM the moderator to ask game-related questions, however, what the moderator may reveal is limited.
- Do not quote any direct correspondence with the moderator, including role PMs and rule-related queries.
- Edits - Editing posts is prohibited. Do not edit your post for any reason, even if your post comes out as a train-wreck of formatting, spelling, punctuation, and/or grammar. The preview button exists; use it.
- Replacements/Activity - If you find yourself unable to play, you may, and should, request a replacement. We may try to talk you out of it if it's for any other reason besides you not having enough time to play.
- Prods may be requested for a player. If they have not posted in the thread within 24 hours, excluding weekends, they will be prodded.
- If you stop playing altogether without notifying me, you will receive a warning after 48 hours, and a forced replace after 72 hours.
- Please be active. The greatest killer of beginner games is poor activity.
- Day/Night Length - Days will last 72 hours. Nights will last 24 hours, or until all night actions are received. Weekends are not counted in terms of day or night length. E.G., if a night starts at 12:00 PM Friday, it will end at 12:00 PM Monday.
- If the game is in a LYLO or MYLO situation, there will be no formal deadline. >50% Players must vote to end the day, or votes must not change for 24-hours.
- Extensions/Shortens - A player may vote for an extension to increase the length of the day. It requires >33% of the current number of players to request an extension for an extension to be granted. A player may also vote for a shorten. It requires >50% of the current number of players for a shorten to be granted. Extensions increase day length by 48 hours, while shortens will immediately end the day as soon as possible. There are only two extensions per day, with other extensions being granted at the moderator's discretion for special reasons.
- Votes for extension/shorten are done in boldface. Extend, Extension, Extend it up yo, Shorten it out y'all are acceptable ways to vote for an extension or shorten
- Extensions or shortens can be opposed. Opposition to extensions or shortens are done in boldface. Oppose Extend, Opposition to the Extension, Oppose Shorten, are acceptable ways to oppose an extension or shorten. Oppositions count against the total number of votes for an extension or shorten.
- Extensions count as opposition to shortens. Similarly, shortens count as opposition to extensions.
- Extensions, Shortens, and Oppositions will be counted and processed by the moderator in the order that they are cast.
- External Participation - While the game is ongoing, if you are not a player, an IC, or a mod, refrain from posting in the thread.
- Play to win! There is no hopeless situation, so don't ever give up. And remember, be bold! You learn nothing and you gain nothing by holding back.
- Miscellaneous - Use of cryptographic hashing is not permitted. If you want to have hidden/obfuscated messages in your posts for later use, come up with them using your own wetware.
Resources and Guides
Our own Bay12 Mafia tutorial (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=39338.0)
The Mafiascum wiki. Lots of theory, terminology, and game analysis. (http://mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?title=Main_Page)
An Interactive Flash tutorial by one of the Mafiascum.net people. Helpful visualization! (http://cataldo.freeshell.org/mafia/mafiascum04.swf)
The Notable Games archive. Read a famous game from start to finish! Learn some Mafia history. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=64229.0)Spoiler: On D1 No-lynches (click to show/hide)Spoiler: Dakarian's Scumhunting Bible, reposted here for your convenience (click to show/hide)Spoiler: A List of Common Scumtells (click to show/hide)
Frequently Asked QuestionsSpoiler (click to show/hide)- Voting - Votes are cast in red and should include the name of the targeted player. Other colors may be ignored. Urist Imiknorris, Urist, UI, and UI you scummy scum!, are all acceptable ways to cast a vote if the target is clear enough.
Post by: Silthuri on November 06, 2014, 06:31:22 am
Post by: Cheeetar on November 06, 2014, 06:47:23 am
Post by: Scripten on November 06, 2014, 11:02:35 am
Post by: Deus Asmoth on November 06, 2014, 11:47:51 am
Post by: 4maskwolf on November 06, 2014, 02:24:41 pm
In (be gentle, it's my first time).ASMOTH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Post by: Deus Asmoth on November 06, 2014, 03:07:57 pm
Post by: Execute/Dumbo.exe on November 06, 2014, 07:42:18 pm
Well, why not, there isn't anything on my nonexistent schedule for a while and it's always nice to try new things right?
In!
Post by: masked_krusader on November 07, 2014, 01:32:48 pm
Post by: Spacefaye on November 08, 2014, 07:11:36 am
Post by: Superblackcat on November 08, 2014, 11:57:15 pm
Post by: Dorsidwarf on November 09, 2014, 12:58:12 pm
Post by: TheDarkStar on November 09, 2014, 01:23:03 pm
Can I offer myself up as a replacement? I'm not too free yet, but I may be in a while, and from what I've seen, BM games always seem to need them.
Ok, that's fine.
Post by: TheDarkStar on November 10, 2014, 11:18:49 pm
Post by: Persus13 on November 11, 2014, 08:12:31 pm
Post by: Superblackcat on November 11, 2014, 10:32:46 pm
Post by: TheDarkStar on November 11, 2014, 10:34:22 pm
If no one qualified comes along, I can be IC I guess. But It's been a while.
It's fine; we need ICs.
Post by: RangerCado on November 13, 2014, 02:01:35 pm
Post by: Persus13 on November 13, 2014, 02:16:04 pm
Post by: Comrade Shamrock on November 16, 2014, 03:41:58 pm
Edit: Noticed a slight discrepancy in numbers. Unless a replacement plays straight away you have 8 out of 9 players including me. Superblackcat is marked in twice. As both an IC and player.
Post by: TheDarkStar on November 16, 2014, 04:18:32 pm
Dammit, I knew I'd said I'd hold off to till the summer but I feel the need to play another game. In
Edit: Noticed a slight discrepancy in numbers. Unless a replacement plays straight away you have 8 out of 9 players including me. Superblackcat is marked in twice. As both an IC and player.
Thanks for noticing this!
Post by: Scintillant on November 16, 2014, 09:56:34 pm
Post by: Scintillant on November 16, 2014, 10:00:49 pm
Post by: Persus13 on November 16, 2014, 11:12:00 pm
Also, the intro says this is BM 50. Copy paste error? :PVery likely.
Post by: TheDarkStar on November 17, 2014, 06:56:01 pm
Also, the intro says this is BM 50. Copy paste error? :PVery likely.
It never happened ;D.
I'll start this later today, hopefully.
Post by: Deus Asmoth on November 17, 2014, 07:22:33 pm
Post by: TheDarkStar on November 17, 2014, 09:54:52 pm
Day 1 has started! It will end at 2 AM UTC on Friday, November 20th (71-72 hours from now). Weekends will not be counted in the time for a day or a night.
Votes:
Scripten:
Deus Asmoth:
Execute/Dumbo.exe:
masked_krusader:
Comrade Shamrock:
RangerCado:
Scintillant:
Superblackcat:
Persus13:
Not voting: Everyone
Post by: Scripten on November 17, 2014, 10:19:38 pm
Execute/Dumbo.exe: How do you feel your play will differ this game from when you have a town role?
Post by: TheDarkStar on November 17, 2014, 10:34:53 pm
Post by: Execute/Dumbo.exe on November 17, 2014, 11:15:02 pm
So, looks like weQuite a lot, I would suspect, for one thing, I won't have to plan out my posts quite so much, though I suspect my success in my other game was only because I was pretty low profile and Worldmaster did most of the work for me.
Execute/Dumbo.exe: How do you feel your play will differ this game from when you have a town role?
Post by: Scintillant on November 18, 2014, 12:38:19 am
Persus13: What basic survival tips would you give to a new player like me?
Post by: Scripten on November 18, 2014, 12:47:47 am
Scripten: If you were mafia, how would you approach this game? If you were town?
If I was scum(mafia), I'd ask others how they play and what they look out for. And not do those things. ;)
As town, I read the way people act when questioned. Evasiveness, pedantry, and a number of other basic scumtells are useful early on for pushing reads. (This is neither exhaustive nor 100% accurate.) Later, I analyze where a player sits on various wagons, how they voted, and the way they pushed cases.
Why did you choose to vote me and why do you expect that you have a lower survival chance as a newbie?
Post by: masked_krusader on November 18, 2014, 01:22:52 am
(Darkstar, can my name get fixed? :P I don't wanna be a krudsader.)
Post by: Scintillant on November 18, 2014, 01:40:05 am
Why did you choose to vote me and why do you expect that you have a lower survival chance as a newbie?
I've read a few of the mafia games here and saw your name come up a few times, so I figured you might be as good a place to start as any. As for the survival chance, I'm worried that I'll make some noob mistake in questioning someone and that it'll get misinterpreted as a scum tell, getting me lynched.
Everyone: How much mafia experience do you have?
Very little to none, maybe a game or two at a party.
Post by: Superblackcat on November 18, 2014, 01:42:49 am
Scint: What thought process would you have if you were the JKer?
masked: How do you think you should play this game?
Post by: Scintillant on November 18, 2014, 01:54:51 am
Scint: What thought process would you have if you were the JKer?
If there was a person who implied that they were a town cop, then I would protect them, as they would the most likely target for a night kill. Otherwise, I'd probably pick a random person that I suspect town so that scum have a chance of trying and failing to NK a protected person. However, if I made a slip up and implied I was JKer, thus painting a big target on myself, I'd pick myself to protect (assuming that I didn't also block myself, making a paradox :P).
Post by: Deus Asmoth on November 18, 2014, 07:10:59 am
Everyone: How much mafia experience do you have?Never played before myself, so we'll see how it goes.
Scintillant, you seem very concerned about being seen as scum very early on in the game. That's probably not suspicious by itself I guess, but it's the only thing worthy of note so far from my point of view.
Post by: Scripten on November 18, 2014, 10:19:26 am
Everyone: How much mafia experience do you have?
A good few games now, both here and off-site. This will probably be my last newbie game before I start ICing.
I've read a few of the mafia games here and saw your name come up a few times, so I figured you might be as good a place to start as any. As for the survival chance, I'm worried that I'll make some noob mistake in questioning someone and that it'll get misinterpreted as a scum tell, getting me lynched.
Good answer. Word to the wise. Don't worry so much about keeping yourself alive. Getting mislynched -is- anti-town, if you are a townie. That said, if you're hunting scum and progressing the game state, you are not likely to get mislynched, even if you do make a mistake or two. Don't let fear of messing up interfere with your play and you'll likely avoid being mislynched.
As far as dying at night, consider it a compliment from the scum team; saying that you're dangerous enough for them to need you eliminated.
Scint: What thought process would you have if you were the JKer?
Hm.
Unvote Execute/Dumbo.exe
Vote Superblackcat
What sort of alignment-indicative information were you hoping to glean from an answer to that question?
Everyone: How much mafia experience do you have?Never played before myself, so we'll see how it goes.
Scintillant, you seem very concerned about being seen as scum very early on in the game. That's probably not suspicious by itself I guess, but it's the only thing worthy of note so far from my point of view.
The best way to get the game moving is to ask questions and try to get reactions out of other players. Stating observations is good, as it shows you are paying attention to other players, but getting out and hunting for scum is the most important task a townie can do. Don't be afraid to confront other players directly. Make your scumhunting direct and solid, so scum can't weasel out of your questions with non-answers.
Post by: Scintillant on November 18, 2014, 10:42:57 am
Post by: RangerCado on November 18, 2014, 10:46:33 am
Post by: Comrade Shamrock on November 18, 2014, 12:17:20 pm
Everyone: How much mafia experience do you have?My experience of mafia is limited. I played scum in beginner's mafia 49 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=142461.0) with my partner worldmaster. I had to pull out after D1 due to a busted laptop and was replaced by McDonald. I have also played town of salem a little excessively but that game is markedly different to this as every player has a power role. The time for debating is very short (something like 75 seconds before the day ends).
This is quite a brief post. It composes of a question and you asked the mod to fix your name. Why do you not have a more pointed question?
Scripten:
As far as dying at night, consider it a compliment from the scum team; saying that you're dangerous enough for them to need you eliminated.Correct me if I'm wrong but I seem to recall a game involving you (I don't think you were scum in it) in which the scum picked their targets on whether or not their deaths would provide much to speculate on. They picked on the quiet and those without many suspicions.
RangerCado:
Which would you prefer to be. A townie or mafia? Why?
Post by: masked_krusader on November 18, 2014, 12:19:06 pm
masked: How do you think you should play this game?
Aggressively and actively scumhunting.
Scripten
How do you see this game going? Besides almost inevitable scum-win because BM, anyway.
Deus Asmoth
If you were mafia, who would you target?
Post by: masked_krusader on November 18, 2014, 12:21:15 pm
masked_krusader:Everyone: How much mafia experience do you have?My experience of mafia is limited. I played scum in beginner's mafia 49 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=142461.0) with my partner worldmaster. I had to pull out after D1 due to a busted laptop and was replaced by McDonald. I have also played town of salem a little excessively but that game is markedly different to this as every player has a power role. The time for debating is very short (something like 75 seconds before the day ends).
This is quite a brief post. It composes of a question and you asked the mod to fix your name. Why do you not have a more pointed question?
I had to sleep, but I thought I should put at least one question out there.
Post by: Comrade Shamrock on November 18, 2014, 12:31:04 pm
Deus AsmothWhy are you asking that question? It seems like a way to set up a fall guy if scum decide to kill that person. Which could result in the basics of he suggested he might have been an inexperienced enough scum to post it and go through with it, which leads to his lynching but he could really be town.
If you were mafia, who would you target?
Post by: Scintillant on November 18, 2014, 12:51:34 pm
Your question here
seems scummy. It feels like a very good escape method if you were mafia. This way, you can safely NK whoever he says and then pin it on him. What was your reasoning behind this question?
Deus Asmoth
If you were mafia, who would you target?
Post by: Comrade Shamrock on November 18, 2014, 01:45:23 pm
While you're here, why do you seem to be basically parroting what I said? While you have thrown the first vote, your accusation is the basically same as mine. Yours is shorter and packs more of a punch, while it is more effective it left me wondering. Did you find this suspicious or are you just following on from what I said?
masked_crusader:
Don't think because I've moved on to questioning Scintillant, you get to wriggle out of answering.
Post by: Scripten on November 18, 2014, 02:34:19 pm
Scripten:
Correct me if I'm wrong but I seem to recall a game involving you (I don't think you were scum in it) in which the scum picked their targets on whether or not their deaths would provide much to speculate on. They picked on the quiet and those without many suspicions.
That's usually the case when we have quiet town who aren't being scumread. This is why an active town is very important. It makes every death informative and gives the mafia less room to hide.
Scripten
How do you see this game going? Besides almost inevitable scum-win because BM, anyway.
Town are probably going to get burnt out, leaving us with very little to go on, and then the mafia are probably going to hide in the lurkers like usual. Though, we do seem to have players who are relatively unafraid to actually participate this time.
Persus13: Heyo, any thoughts so far?
Post by: Scintillant on November 18, 2014, 03:18:53 pm
Scintillant:I did independently arrive at this conclusion, I just had the misfortune of posting it after you. Great minds think alike, I guess :P
While you're here, why do you seem to be basically parroting what I said? While you have thrown the first vote, your accusation is the basically same as mine. Yours is shorter and packs more of a punch, while it is more effective it left me wondering. Did you find this suspicious or are you just following on from what I said?
the mafia are probably going to hide in the lurkers like usual.Couldn't we just start lynching lurkers, though to counter this?
Post by: Scripten on November 18, 2014, 03:22:55 pm
the mafia are probably going to hide in the lurkers like usual.Couldn't we just start lynching lurkers, though to counter this?
This works great when town doesn't lurk and scum does. Usually not the case, though.
Post by: Comrade Shamrock on November 18, 2014, 03:54:03 pm
Alright amigo. ;DScintillant:I did independently arrive at this conclusion, I just had the misfortune of posting it after you. Great minds think alike, I guess :P
While you're here, why do you seem to be basically parroting what I said? While you have thrown the first vote, your accusation is the basically same as mine. Yours is shorter and packs more of a punch, while it is more effective it left me wondering. Did you find this suspicious or are you just following on from what I said?
How would you approach this game as a scummer? Would you prefer a particular method? Active lurking? Lurk like a madman? Play the village idiot? Or perhaps another insidious method?
Scripten:
You seem to be trying to ingratiate yourself with other players. Directly with Scintillant and indirectly with others. While it could just be good gamesmanship, I'm wondering whether it has an ulterior motive.
Persus13: Heyo, any thoughts so far?Is it regular for you to start asking questions about people's opinion so early? You have yet to really voice an opinion but already want another player to give you their thoughts.
Post by: Scintillant on November 18, 2014, 04:08:21 pm
How would you approach this game as a scummer? Would you prefer a particular method? Active lurking? Lurk like a madman? Play the village idiot? Or perhaps another insidious method?If I was scum, I would probably do active lurking, posting just enough to appear active, but not enough to let anyone significantly see my alignment. Based on reading other games here, it seems like full-on lurking or village idiot don't seem to work to well, as those scum seem to always get caught out. In terms of overall strategy, I'd figure out which town person is the most likely to find me out (this would probably the most experienced person), and pull suspicion onto them to try and get them lynched. If that doesn't work, and assuming I don't get lynched myself, I'd NK that person.
Post by: Comrade Shamrock on November 18, 2014, 04:16:15 pm
So basically what you're doing now? ;D Nah just kidding.How would you approach this game as a scummer? Would you prefer a particular method? Active lurking? Lurk like a madman? Play the village idiot? Or perhaps another insidious method?If I was scum, I would probably do active lurking, posting just enough to appear active, but not enough to let anyone significantly see my alignment.
But I do advise you start asking more questions. You seem to have a short supply of questions. But then again everyone here does. I am also asking you to ask questions so I'm not the first to perish due to my proactivety. :D
Post by: Scripten on November 18, 2014, 04:24:47 pm
Scripten:
You seem to be trying to ingratiate yourself with other players. Directly with Scintillant and indirectly with others. While it could just be good gamesmanship, I'm wondering whether it has an ulterior motive.
I'll get to confronting people when it's necessary. Being polite and being compliant are different entirely.
Persus13: Heyo, any thoughts so far?Is it regular for you to start asking questions about people's opinion so early? You have yet to really voice an opinion but already want another player to give you their thoughts.
Persus13 hasn't shown up in the thread since the day's started. Want him to participate if I can get him to.
Post by: Scintillant on November 18, 2014, 04:25:12 pm
Could you explain exactly what you mean by this? Why would posts require less planning as scum vs. town?Execute/Dumbo.exe: How do you feel your play will differ this game from when you have a town role?Quite a lot, I would suspect, for one thing, I won't have to plan out my posts quite so much.
Post by: Scintillant on November 18, 2014, 04:30:34 pm
I'll get to confronting people when it's necessary.What are your criteria for judging when confrontation is "necessary"? Also, this explanation seems a tad evasive.
Post by: Comrade Shamrock on November 18, 2014, 04:34:46 pm
I see you hanging about the forum. Get in here and help us find scum. I'll help here's question to get the ball rolling. Which would be preferable to you, vanilla, power role or scum? Why?
Scripten:
If you won't confront, are you at least going to ask questions?
Post by: Scripten on November 18, 2014, 04:37:12 pm
Scripten:
If you won't confront, are you at least going to ask questions?
This is a leading question and I don't like that. What do you think, considering my play so far?
Post by: Scripten on November 18, 2014, 04:41:17 pm
Scripten:I'll get to confronting people when it's necessary.What are your criteria for judging when confrontation is "necessary"? Also, this explanation seems a tad evasive.
When I feel like the situation warrants it. For example, when players begin an echo chamber. ;)
Post by: Deus Asmoth on November 18, 2014, 04:45:25 pm
Deus AsmothNot a big fan of this question, but the straight answer is that I don't know. My initial plan for if I got picked for the forces of evil was to campaign against another scum player so that if either of us were voted off the other would look more likely to be town. Since I don't know who's scum now, I guess I'd say Comrade Shamrock, because it's traditional for Irish people to fight each other.
If you were mafia, who would you target?
Shamrock My internet's a bit slow at the moment and I seem to be taking too long posting. In any case, I would think being scum would be most fun for me. Encouraging people to fight among themselves seems to be my playstyle in a lot of games.
Post by: masked_krusader on November 18, 2014, 04:46:22 pm
masked_krusaderDeus AsmothWhy are you asking that question? It seems like a way to set up a fall guy if scum decide to kill that person. Which could result in the basics of he suggested he might have been an inexperienced enough scum to post it and go through with it, which leads to his lynching but he could really be town.
If you were mafia, who would you target?
Unvote. Vote masked_krusader.
Your question hereseems scummy. It feels like a very good escape method if you were mafia. This way, you can safely NK whoever he says and then pin it on him. What was your reasoning behind this question?
Deus Asmoth
If you were mafia, who would you target?
I didn't even think of that scenario because it seems incredibly transparent. It also smells of WIFOM, but mostly it just seems like a way-too-prone-to-fail scum plan.
My reasoning behind asking it was that I thought it was a harmless RVS question.
Post by: Execute/Dumbo.exe on November 18, 2014, 04:50:57 pm
Execute/Dumbo.exe:Hold on, what?Could you explain exactly what you mean by this? Why would posts require less planning as scum vs. town?Execute/Dumbo.exe: How do you feel your play will differ this game from when you have a town role?Quite a lot, I would suspect, for one thing, I won't have to plan out my posts quite so much.
Rereading here...
Ah, I see.
Sorry, that was a badly worded post there, what I meant to say was that as scum it takes a lot of planning while as town I don't need to worry so much as I can actually go on my actual cases without having to plan for an hour every post.
I was confused because the only part of mafia I participated in before this was as scum so I assumed you were talking about that instance compared to as if I was town instead.
Post by: Deus Asmoth on November 18, 2014, 04:54:08 pm
Crusader: What would your scum strategy be, then?
Post by: masked_krusader on November 18, 2014, 05:44:13 pm
Crusader: What would your scum strategy be, then?
If I were scum, I would try to scumhunt as best as I could without actually targeting any buddies, and be active, so I wouldn't fall prey to the "lurker = scum -> autolynch" thing that happens basically every game.
Scripten
If a scummy player was lynched, but flipped town, how would you proceed?
Execute/Dumbo.exe
If it got down to MYLO, would you attempt to hang scum, or push for a no-lynch to get more info?
Comrade Shamrock
If you had a power role, and someone fakeclaimed your role, would you claim to get them lynched, or push suspicion on them to avoid getting NK'd?
RangerCado
How would you deal with lurkers?
Scintillant
If you were a Jailkeeper, would you try to protect an NK target, or try to block a scum directly?
Superblackcat
Do you expect any silly gambits this game?
Persus13
Where you at, bro?
Post by: Scripten on November 18, 2014, 06:03:38 pm
Scripten
If a scummy player was lynched, but flipped town, how would you proceed?
Take a look at the wagon that got them lynched. Look for people on the wagon but not particularly committing to it. Move on to other reads. Mislynches are just a fact of the game. Getting too upset over one can shake up your town game.
What about this question do you think suggests at my alignment?
Post by: Comrade Shamrock on November 18, 2014, 06:08:46 pm
A question! Well at least it's an improvement. I had hoped to provoke more active involvement.Scripten:
If you won't confront, are you at least going to ask questions?
This is a leading question and I don't like that. What do you think, considering my play so far?
(Town approach)I feel like you are going to hang back until someone does something you find particularly scummy and then apply pressure until either they give more away or do something that makes you think they are town.
(Scum approach)Pretty much the same as town. Except you hope to catch someone who does something you think is enough to start an argument and possibly get a lynch. Either that or you could stage a fight with your scum buddy so as if one of you turns up the less likely you will be to be suspected.
Sadly I don't think I would really spot the difference between the two and so this isn't very helpful to me. Why did you ask this anyway?
Deus:
I would go for group questioning. Even if scum gets into the questioning he has less of an impact if he was the only questioner. I also feel people will devote more thought to it as they are directly involved.
But if it does lead to a lynch. The scum involved does have to craft an excuse as to why they were involved otherwise they will be seen as a bandwagoner going for an easy target.
masked_krusader
I would claim to get them lynched. Trying to push suspicion is not guaranteed to get them lynched neither is it a guarantee of protection against a night kill. I might just get killed for pushing suspicion towards them. I would rather go for the more guaranteed method.
Post by: Execute/Dumbo.exe on November 18, 2014, 06:09:18 pm
Execute/Dumbo.exeWell, first up I would like to know what MYLO means? Does it mean when if town lunches the wrong person the scum win or something?
If it got down to MYLO, would you attempt to hang scum, or push for a no-lynch to get more info?
Post by: Scripten on November 18, 2014, 06:24:10 pm
A question! Well at least it's an improvement. I had hoped to provoke more active involvement.
::)
If you're just going to misrepresent my play, you can go straight to my scum bloc. If you truly believe that my play is suboptimal, I'm going to ask you to back that gak up.
(Town approach)I feel like you are going to hang back until someone does something you find particularly scummy and then apply pressure until either they give more away or do something that makes you think they are town.
(Scum approach)Pretty much the same as town. Except you hope to catch someone who does something you think is enough to start an argument and possibly get a lynch. Either that or you could stage a fight with your scum buddy so as if one of you turns up the less likely you will be to be suspected.
So what makes you think that you have such a firm grasp of the way I play mafia? You're setting up a strawman here to knock down, and I find this underhanded.
Sadly I don't think I would really spot the difference between the two and so this isn't very helpful to me. Why did you ask this anyway?
I was asking you to look back through my play so far, since you're pushing untruths.
Post by: Comrade Shamrock on November 18, 2014, 06:40:38 pm
You kind of laid it out earlier on.
Scripten:
You seem to be trying to ingratiate yourself with other players. Directly with Scintillant and indirectly with others. While it could just be good gamesmanship, I'm wondering whether it has an ulterior motive.
I'll get to confronting people when it's necessary. Being polite and being compliant are different entirely.
I think that pretty much covers it. You said that you would confront people when the time came to it. This then went into the approaches I gave to your possible approach to the game.
You also asked my what I would think what you would do. What did you expect, for me to ignore the question?
I took this to mean you were asking what I'd think you'd do so I developed what you said above into a possible approach.Scripten:
If you won't confront, are you at least going to ask questions?
This is a leading question and I don't like that. What do you think, considering my play so far?
Now could you please tell me what has you so uppity about my responses. Or are you trying to twist my words?
Post by: Scripten on November 18, 2014, 06:59:03 pm
Scripten:
You seem to be trying to ingratiate yourself with other players. Directly with Scintillant and indirectly with others. While it could just be good gamesmanship, I'm wondering whether it has an ulterior motive.
I'll get to confronting people when it's necessary. Being polite and being compliant are different entirely.
I think that pretty much covers it. You said that you would confront people when the time came to it. This then went into the approaches I gave to your possible approach to the game.
Being confrontational is not the only way to play the game. It's unnecessary to employ in all situations. You then twisted my words to imply that I was not participating in the game. That's untrue and, frankly, insulting.
You also asked my what I would think what you would do. What did you expect, for me to ignore the question?I took this to mean you were asking what I'd think you'd do so I developed what you said above into a possible approach.Scripten:
If you won't confront, are you at least going to ask questions?
This is a leading question and I don't like that. What do you think, considering my play so far?
Now could you please tell me what has you so uppity about my responses. Or are you trying to twist my words?
I specifically meant for you to go back and reread my play this game. I'll admit to being sarcastic, but I greatly dislike the way you're presenting my play and I feel it's a misrepresentation. Can you back up the claim you're pushing that my play has not been optimal or town-oriented?
Post by: masked_krusader on November 18, 2014, 07:05:30 pm
masked_krusader
I would claim to get them lynched. Trying to push suspicion is not guaranteed to get them lynched neither is it a guarantee of protection against a night kill. I might just get killed for pushing suspicion towards them. I would rather go for the more guaranteed method.
True enough, though claiming may not work either, but that's WIFOM territory again.
MYLO, I believe, means there are two more town than scum; therefore, if a mislynch occurs, scum will nightkill and it will be even numbers, meaning scum victory.Execute/Dumbo.exeWell, first up I would like to know what MYLO means? Does it mean when if town lunches the wrong person the scum win or something?
If it got down to MYLO, would you attempt to hang scum, or push for a no-lynch to get more info?
Post by: Comrade Shamrock on November 18, 2014, 07:14:26 pm
I did not mean to say your game is sub-optimal. It's just that you are playing in a mainly reactive manner. Very few questions seem to come from you. You provide well detailed answers and offer advice. But if we look back I think you have addressed two people in an inquiry without a prompt. These were both Persus and Blackcat, our absentee ICs. Then there is the spat we just had, which I provoked by basically insulting you (sorry about that).
Now we are warned that the greatest killer of BM games is inactivety. This is what I find a slight problem. As one of the more experienced players your reactive approach is not providing the best example for us newbies. Especially since the ICs are nowhere to be seen in terms of actual gameplay, the mentor role falls to you. So I was trying to get you to become more proactive as an example to help us learn from someone who has experience.
masked_krusader:
But if there is a counterclaim it means that someone is definitely a liar.
Post by: Execute/Dumbo.exe on November 18, 2014, 07:18:28 pm
Quote from: masked_krusader
Right, thought so.Execute/Dumbo.exeWell, first up I would like to know what MYLO means? Does it mean when if town lunches the wrong person the scum win or something?
If it got down to MYLO, would you attempt to hang scum, or push for a no-lynch to get more info?
MYLO, I believe, means there are two more town than scum; therefore, if a mislynch occurs, scum will nightkill and it will be even numbers, meaning scum victory.
Well, in that case, I would have to go for no lynch, as if there becomes one less player, then it becomes easier to figure out who is scum, because hey, if you pick the wrong guy you were still going to lose.
Post by: Scintillant on November 18, 2014, 07:25:13 pm
Post by: Scintillant on November 18, 2014, 08:01:51 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Quote from: masked_krusader
If you were a Jailkeeper, would you try to protect an NK target, or try to block a scum directly?Depends on how many scum were left. If there was only one left, I'd block him so that NK is guaranteed prevented. If there's more than one, I'd go for the NK target, seeing as blocking one scum would still allow the other to make the NK (I think that's how it works at least).
Execute/Dumbo.exe: I'm still a bit suspicious of you, but I'm mostly satisfied with your response for now.
Persus13: I know that others have said this already, but stop lurking and get out here. You haven't posted at all yet.
RangerCado: Same goes for you, all you've said is that you'll reply "before the end of the day". Get out here and contribute to the scumhunt, or at the very least, answer the questions we've asked you. At this point, your lack of response is getting suspicious.
Scripten:
Here, I feel you're being evasive. While you do prove that you'll ask questions by asking a question, you didn't explain why you weren't asking questions. In case you state that the original question didn't explicitly ask for you to provide that, well, I'm going to ask that now. Why have you asked so few questions? By my count, you've asked only two (not counting your argument with masked_krusader).Scripten:This is a leading question and I don't like that. What do you think, considering my play so far?
If you won't confront, are you at least going to ask questions?
Comrade Shamrock: What are your current top two picks for scum and why?
Post by: Scripten on November 18, 2014, 09:19:26 pm
Scripten:Here, I feel you're being evasive. While you do prove that you'll ask questions by asking a question, you didn't explain why you weren't asking questions. In case you state that the original question didn't explicitly ask for you to provide that, well, I'm going to ask that now. Why have you asked so few questions? By my count, you've asked only two (not counting your argument with masked_krusader).Scripten:This is a leading question and I don't like that. What do you think, considering my play so far?
If you won't confront, are you at least going to ask questions?
Actually, my interaction was with Comrade Shamrock, not masked_krusader.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
This is a collection of posts "counting questions" (which is a poor way to represent a player's play to begin with) and does not include my argument with Comrade Shamrock. Now, explain why you're attacking the strawman that Comrade Shamrock built on a misrepresentation of my play, please?
Post by: Scripten on November 18, 2014, 09:32:18 pm
Scripten
If a scummy player was lynched, but flipped town, how would you proceed?
Take a look at the wagon that got them lynched. Look for people on the wagon but not particularly committing to it. Move on to other reads. Mislynches are just a fact of the game. Getting too upset over one can shake up your town game.
What about this question do you think suggests at my alignment?
Masked_Krusader, can you please answer the question I asked you in this post?
Post by: TheDarkStar on November 18, 2014, 09:49:48 pm
Day 1 will end at 2 AM UTC on Friday, November 20th (47-48 hours from now). Weekends will not be counted in the time for a day or a night.
Votes:
Scripten:
Deus Asmoth:
Execute/Dumbo.exe:
masked_krusader:
Comrade Shamrock:
RangerCado:
Scintillant:
Superblackcat: Scripten
Persus13: masked_krusader
Not voting: Everyone else
(Darkstar, can my name get fixed? :P I don't wanna be a krudsader.)
It never happened and the government is not hiding the truth :P.
Post by: Execute/Dumbo.exe on November 18, 2014, 09:57:26 pm
Post by: Scintillant on November 18, 2014, 10:42:45 pm
Now, explain why you're attacking the strawman that Comrade Shamrock built on a misrepresentation of my play, please?To be honest, it's because I didn't pay enough attention to your posts. Looking back, I can see that my argument was based on nonexistent evidence, namely that of you asking few questions, which, as you pointed out, is false. Also, I had a slight hunch that you were scum at that point, again based on your lack of questioning, so I piggybacked off of Shamrock's argument since it seemed to hit the same points that I was thinking about. Now that I have reread the thread, I can confidently say that my argument was baseless.
Post by: Scintillant on November 18, 2014, 10:45:41 pm
Look, I have to go for No lynch here, I really don't feel confident enough in voting for anyone on the first day.I have to agree at this point. Although if our resident lurkers (namely RangerCado and Persus13) don't show their faces soon, my position may change. For now, though, I'm going to vote No Lynch.
Post by: Superblackcat on November 18, 2014, 10:58:10 pm
Also, I'm not sure how I feel about people called lurkers not even 2 days into the game.
[IC TALK]
As a 9 person, 2 mafia game, I don't think it's a smart idea to go NL on day 1. We've got 48 hours (- extensions) to talk this out, and there is no reason to just sit back and No Lynch.
[/IC TALK]
Post by: Scintillant on November 18, 2014, 11:15:22 pm
Scint: It's just shitty RVS questions by a bad IC. Nothing else. Trying to get people talking. Apparently I don't need to do that.What exactly does this relate to? Because I looked through my posts and I can't see what it might be talking about. Also, what's up with the "bad IC" part? Neither of the IC's have asked any questions, as far as I can tell.
Post by: Scripten on November 18, 2014, 11:17:32 pm
Look, I have to go for No lynch here, I really don't feel confident enough in voting for anyone on the first day.
NU!
Look, I have to go for No lynch here, I really don't feel confident enough in voting for anyone on the first day.I have to agree at this point. Although if our resident lurkers (namely RangerCado and Persus13) don't show their faces soon, my position may change. For now, though, I'm going to vote No Lynch.
NUUUUUUUUUU!
[IC TALK]
As a 9 person, 2 mafia game, I don't think it's a smart idea to go NL on day 1. We've got 48 hours (- extensions) to talk this out, and there is no reason to just sit back and No Lynch.
[/IC TALK]
YESH!
Post by: Scintillant on November 18, 2014, 11:20:43 pm
Post by: Scripten on November 18, 2014, 11:24:47 pm
Use your vote to pressure people. If you find a player scummier than the others, examine why you feel that way. Then, confront them and vote them to show you're serious. Course, that doesn't mean toss your vote around like it's nothing. Remember that the power your vote holds is only as strong as the determination to root out scum behind it.
SuperBlackCat: Could you answer the following, please?
Scint: What thought process would you have if you were the JKer?
Hm.
Unvote Execute/Dumbo.exe
Vote Superblackcat
What sort of alignment-indicative information were you hoping to glean from an answer to that question?
Post by: RangerCado on November 18, 2014, 11:28:19 pm
Spoiler: BIG (click to show/hide)
).And now its time for bed for me. I'll try and get a post done earlier tomorrow as I do only have a half day at school. Now stop accusing me of lurking Scintillant because I'm not going to break my promises on posting on a day!
Post by: Superblackcat on November 18, 2014, 11:29:42 pm
Scint: It's just shitty RVS questions by a bad IC. Nothing else. Trying to get people talking. Apparently I don't need to do that
Post by: Scripten on November 18, 2014, 11:42:32 pm
I apologize Scripten, I though Scint asked that question. Here's the answer:Scint: It's just shitty RVS questions by a bad IC. Nothing else. Trying to get people talking. Apparently I don't need to do that
No worries. Our names both start with "s" so it's not an entirely unreasonable mistake to make. Any thoughts on the current game state? What do you think about the various goings-on such as the interaction between myself and Comrade Shamrock, the relationship between Shamrock and Scint where they occasionally seem to echo one another, the push by Execute/Dumbo.exe for a NoLynch, or the mysterious absence of Persus13?
Post by: Scintillant on November 19, 2014, 12:01:06 am
Quote from: RangerCado
Even though this would prevent them from investigating due to being thrown in jail?For the first question, yes. Since they've painted themselves as a power role, then they'd be the most likely target for NK. True, protecting them would also block them, but the way I see it, having them not blocked and not protected would only result in them getting NKed, nullifying the use of allowing them to investigate, cause they can't share their results. I feel that it's much better to have an extra town the next day and have no one get killed, rather than having the cop die with nothing to show for it.
As mafia, would your goal be to eliminate the ICs first, or the townie who appears to be doing the most head way? Would this desicion change if you were the only mafia player assuming we lynched a scum day 1?
As scum (I'm assuming you're asking who I would NK), I would most likely go for the townie making headway rather than the IC. If the IC isn't making significant headway and is just giving advice, then they'd pose no real threat to me, whereas the progressive townie would be the one with the strongest case against me, so I'd want to get rid of them. However, if I was the last scum, I would rather go for townies that would cause the least suspicion when they died, ideally townies whose deaths put suspicion on someone else.
Quote from: RangerCado
By the end of the day, I mean the RL day as I had school immediately after that post, then had to do some home work and eat dinner, and finally got to doing this which has now taken almost an hour and I'm not yet done with it. Patience, I'm not known for disappearing like that. I WILL get atleast 1-3 posts out each RL day as I normally do... though I find it odd you didn't FOS Persus as well as at this point he has been gone now longer than I.Got it, no problem ;)
Un-Fos RangerCado, FoS Persus13
Post by: Scripten on November 19, 2014, 12:01:25 am
Scripten: I'm not sure if this actually answers the mafia part of the question. Your basically restating what Scintillant is actually doing. I'd like to know if this is a serious answer, or goofing around. And if it IS goofing around, did you plan to answer this?
Sorry, I can be a wee bit sarcastic occasionally. :P
I was making a point about the question not being particularly useful for RVS. It's interesting, perhaps, assuming the player answers correctly. However, there's no real way for you to use that information when scumhunting. What if they say that they're going to "act as town-like as possible"? Does that change how you read their play? It's also a question that is very easy to lie about without much recompense.
That said, it's not a terrible start. I just don't find the idea of (totally) random questions to be particularly useful. The most useful RVS questions are those that can reveal the alignment of another player or create momentum in the game state. (Preferably out of RVS, where scum have free reign.)
And what mistakes do you believe will be most prominately be made by the new players?
Over reliance on quantitative evidence as opposed to qualitative. It's not really something that can be helped, sadly. New players just don't have the experience to see what things are important and to pick out underlying currents of activity. Hell, most experienced players aren't able to do this with a significant degree of accuracy.
Scripten: This seems a rather odd vote change. Considering that most BMs and actual games are riddled with questions like this on whether you would do this as this role, or this as that role. Not only that, but this is still the RVS stage, and though that often means things like this don't hold MUCH clout, its still odd coming from an IC with that as your question.Scint: What thought process would you have if you were the JKer?
Hm.
Unvote Execute/Dumbo.exe
Vote Superblackcat
What sort of alignment-indicative information were you hoping to glean from an answer to that question?
My vote change was due to the slight role-fishy feeling of that question. I don't see an answer giving any meaningful information about the player's alignment. However, it could give unnecessary information regarding power roles, which is a decidedly anti-town action. I pressed SBC to see if he had maybe come up with reasoning that I had overlooked.
Post by: Scripten on November 19, 2014, 12:03:05 am
Are you SURE you're a newbie, Scint? =.=
Post by: Scintillant on November 19, 2014, 12:12:55 am
...In terms of games played, very much so. However, I've read a LOT of mafia games here, so I kinda roughly know what to do :P
Are you SURE you're a newbie, Scint? =.=
Post by: masked_krusader on November 19, 2014, 12:32:32 am
Krusader:That would depend on how certain I am on the identity of scum. If I wasn't certain, then I'd try to protect whoever was painting the biggest target on themselves. Lacking that, too, I'd probably be random in the hopes of interrupting a nightkill.
What would be your criteria for targetting people as the jailer?
Sorry, missed that one.Scripten
If a scummy player was lynched, but flipped town, how would you proceed?
Take a look at the wagon that got them lynched. Look for people on the wagon but not particularly committing to it. Move on to other reads. Mislynches are just a fact of the game. Getting too upset over one can shake up your town game.
What about this question do you think suggests at my alignment?
Masked_Krusader, can you please answer the question I asked you in this post?
I think it would suggest that you are town, but I couldn't really be certain either way.
NOOOOOOOOOESLook, I have to go for No lynch here, I really don't feel confident enough in voting for anyone on the first day.I have to agree at this point. Although if our resident lurkers (namely RangerCado and Persus13) don't show their faces soon, my position may change. For now, though, I'm going to vote No Lynch.
NO VOTE NO LYNCH D1
Unvote No Lynch.YES. THIS.
NEVAR VOTE TEH NO LYNCH ON DAY 1.
And if Persus doesn't show himself, my vote stays where it is.
Post by: Execute/Dumbo.exe on November 19, 2014, 12:52:18 am
There, you happy now? The only person I see as slightly leaning towards getting my vote and that's Persus13.
Mostly because all the better players are dog piling (Massive Over exaggeration) him.
Hmmm.
Post by: Scintillant on November 19, 2014, 12:59:14 am
Post by: Scintillant on November 19, 2014, 01:12:13 am
...Just out of curiosity, where did I display such unusual competence as to get this response? :P
Are you SURE you're a newbie, Scint? =.=
Post by: Scintillant on November 19, 2014, 01:45:48 am
Persus13: You haven't posted at all this game. The only reason that the FoS hasn't been upgraded to a full vote is that your post history shows that you're occupied with KYOSN. Please become active. You're IC, for goodness' sake.
Krusader:
Your answer says who you'd pick if you weren't certain on scum. However, it says nothing about what you'd do if you did know scum. Why is this? And could you please answer it?Krusader:That would depend on how certain I am on the identity of scum. If I wasn't certain, then I'd try to protect whoever was painting the biggest target on themselves. Lacking that, too, I'd probably be random in the hopes of interrupting a nightkill.
What would be your criteria for targetting people as the jailer?
What exactly were you hoping to accomplish with this question? You yourself admit that you couldn't get any useful info from it.Sorry, missed that one.Scripten
If a scummy player was lynched, but flipped town, how would you proceed?
Take a look at the wagon that got them lynched. Look for people on the wagon but not particularly committing to it. Move on to other reads. Mislynches are just a fact of the game. Getting too upset over one can shake up your town game.
What about this question do you think suggests at my alignment?
Masked_Krusader, can you please answer the question I asked you in this post?
I think it would suggest that you are town, but I couldn't really be certain either way.
Post by: Deus Asmoth on November 19, 2014, 04:21:58 am
Post by: Execute/Dumbo.exe on November 19, 2014, 05:07:24 am
Vote Execute. Trying to get a no lynch on day 1 can only be bad for the town, and it's the most suspicious play I've seen so far.I went for No Lynch because I didn't know who could have really been showing any scummy behavior, I just don't have an eye for that kind of stuff.
Oh, on that note, I'm going to have to request a replacement, and yes I realise how much of a dick move this is, doing so on the first day, but I just feel like crap from this game already and I think I would just informally leave anyway.
Post by: Scripten on November 19, 2014, 11:16:32 am
What about this question do you think suggests at my alignment?I think it would suggest that you are town, but I couldn't really be certain either way.
That's not quite what I meant. Scint sort of covered it already. I mean, what goal did you have in mind when you asked this question? How would me answering it help you determine my alignment?
Keep in mind that I'm not asking you these questions just to be mean. I want to understand your thought process.
Just out of curiosity, where did I display such unusual competence as to get this response? :P
Well, you've got a certain competency about terms and various aspects of the game. On the other hand, you've made some very obvious newbtown mistakes that create a pro-scum game state, which makes me rather suspicious. Someone who is aware of what VIs are should be well aware that echoing other players and voting for a No Lynch on D1 are not pro-town actions.
I went for No Lynch because I didn't know who could have really been showing any scummy behavior, I just don't have an eye for that kind of stuff.
Oh, on that note, I'm going to have to request a replacement, and yes I realise how much of a dick move this is, doing so on the first day, but I just feel like crap from this game already and I think I would just informally leave anyway.
I don't think its necessary to replace out, E/D.exe. Your play is still salvageable. Just start scumhunting legitimately and don't give up. Unless you're scum, in which case go ahead and convince us to lynch you. ;)
Post by: Persus13 on November 19, 2014, 12:06:21 pm
This is my IC voice. Anything I say in this can be trusted 100%. However I will use this only to discuss game mechanics and general mafia stuff. My own opinion on things like scumhunting, things I find suspicious, as well as anything I say that doesn't have to do with game mechanics and general mafia stuff will not be in IC voice. That does not mean that you can not trust my words outside my IC voice, it just means that those statements are made by me as an IC, not me as a player.
An important thing to keep in mind, and something many of you seem to be realize already, is that I have two goals. The first is to improve your play, while the second is to play to my win condition. It is possible for an IC to have a scum alignment. It is also possible for both ICs to be the scum team.
Now that I've said all that, on to dealing with people's posts.
Look, I have to go for No lynch here, I really don't feel confident enough in voting for anyone on the first day.
When you posted, you still had 48 hours to find scum. Instead of voting for No Lynch (which is one of the worst town decisions, because it gives power to the scum), you two could be asking questions, looking for strange occurances in previous posts, or voting for inactive people to get in here.Look, I have to go for No lynch here, I really don't feel confident enough in voting for anyone on the first day.I have to agree at this point. Although if our resident lurkers (namely RangerCado and Persus13) don't show their faces soon, my position may change. For now, though, I'm going to vote No Lynch.
Scripten:
So, looks like we have some new blood in here.I'm not completely sure I understand this question. Are you implying that Execute has a scum role?
Execute/Dumbo.exe: How do you feel your play will differ this game from when you have a town role?
Persus13: Heyo, any thoughts so far?You seem pretty experienced.
Scintellant seems like he understands a little how to play like town, but hasn't mastered it. He also is copying people, which is a bit odd.
Krusader seems to understand how the game is played pretty well.
Shamrock is being really aggressive, which is something a lot of people do, especially when starting out, but isn't actually necessary.
Execute is flailing a lot.
SBC, Deus Asmoth and Ranger Cado need to post more before I can get a fix on them.
Scintellant:
Persus13: What basic survival tips would you give to a new player like me?Be active enough and post well enough to not be a lynch target, but don't be town-like enough to be the target of a night kill. Alternatively, don't be an IC but play well as town, as ICs are usually the first to get NKed. Why is the focus of this question on survival as opposed to finding scum?
However, if I made a slip up and implied I was JKer, thus painting a big target on myself, I'd pick myself to protect (assuming that I didn't also block myself, making a paradox :P).Jailkeepers can't protect themselves.
You posted your question 20 minutes after Shamrock posted his. How did you miss Shamrock's question?Scintillant:I did independently arrive at this conclusion, I just had the misfortune of posting it after you. Great minds think alike, I guess :P
While you're here, why do you seem to be basically parroting what I said? While you have thrown the first vote, your accusation is the basically same as mine. Yours is shorter and packs more of a punch, while it is more effective it left me wondering. Did you find this suspicious or are you just following on from what I said?the mafia are probably going to hide in the lurkers like usual.Couldn't we just start lynching lurkers, though to counter this?
Lynching lurkers is something I only feel should be done in the absence of scum targets. Also, there is a difference between Lurking and not being able to post. Lurking is being able to post but not doing so. However that definition is a bit subjective, because not being able to post can range from not being able to access your computer to being pre-occupied with another Bay12 game. Also, not all scum are lurkers, scum tend to be either fairly active and trying to appear to be scumhunting, or lurking, as do town.
Also, I had a slight hunch that you were scum at that point, again based on your lack of questioning, so I piggybacked off of Shamrock's argument since it seemed to hit the same points that I was thinking about.And this wouldn't be the first time you've done this.
Un-Fos RangerCado, FoS Persus13Here's a tip: Use your vote when you can. FOS in my opinion should only be used for someone you would like to vote but you want to keep your vote on someone else. A FOS is pretty useless otherwise, and makes you look like you want to attack me but don't have enough courage to vote me. So next time, vote me.
Krusader:
Everyone: How much mafia experience do you have?I've played Mafia on this board for a bit over a year now. I've been scum about 3-4 times, a serial killer once, and town for a bunch of other games.
Besides almost inevitable scum-win because BM, anyway.It's not inevitable, I've definitely seen town win BMs before, so don't be so defeatist.
Comrade Shamrock:
masked_krusaderAs a general rule, it is considered rude to jump in on someone else's question, because it might change the answer that is given. Just FYI.Deus AsmothWhy are you asking that question? It seems like a way to set up a fall guy if scum decide to kill that person. Which could result in the basics of he suggested he might have been an inexperienced enough scum to post it and go through with it, which leads to his lynching but he could really be town.
If you were mafia, who would you target?
Also, it is entirely possible that this was Krusader's intent, however questions like this one are often asked in RVS by players of any alignment to get discussion going. Also, as Krusader responded, this type of scum plan is usually trumped by the realities of the situation
Out of curiousity, why do you seem really aggressive towards Krusader from the start?
This isn't unusual. ICs get these questions all the time. The fact that I'm an IC is something you seem to be ignoring in this post.Persus13: Heyo, any thoughts so far?Is it regular for you to start asking questions about people's opinion so early? You have yet to really voice an opinion but already want another player to give you their thoughts.
Scripten:You calling a player who had the first post of the game reactive? And the post had a question to Execute, so this post is incorrect about the number of questions he asked. In addition, I'd like to point that a lot of Mafia is reactive because you find scum through seeing other people's content and finding what's scummy about it.
I did not mean to say your game is sub-optimal. It's just that you are playing in a mainly reactive manner. Very few questions seem to come from you. You provide well detailed answers and offer advice. But if we look back I think you have addressed two people in an inquiry without a prompt. These were both Persus and Blackcat, our absentee ICs. Then there is the spat we just had, which I provoked by basically insulting you (sorry about that).
Execute:
You're correct. MyLo is an abbreviation of Mislynch and Lose. In this game, if we have 6 people then we would have MYLo. Although if we have a Jailkeeper then they can stop scum from winning.Execute/Dumbo.exeWell, first up I would like to know what MYLO means? Does it mean when if town lunches the wrong person the scum win or something?
If it got down to MYLO, would you attempt to hang scum, or push for a no-lynch to get more info?
Alright then, Unvote No-Lynch.Voting someone because other players are is something that will get you lynched. Vote someone because you find something they said odd, or you agree with another player's case on them.
There, you happy now? The only person I see as slightly leaning towards getting my vote and that's Persus13.
Mostly because all the better players are dog piling (Massive Over exaggeration) him.
Hmmm.
If you want to request replacement, use bold text. Secondly, don't be discouraged by the fact people are attacking you for a mistake you made. This type of thing happens often in beginner games, and the point of these games is to help you avoid that type of thing. If you don't feel you enjoy Mafia, feel free to request a replacement, but I would encourage you to stay and play if you feel able. It's not a dick move to request a replacement if you don't feel well because of a game.Vote Execute. Trying to get a no lynch on day 1 can only be bad for the town, and it's the most suspicious play I've seen so far.I went for No Lynch because I didn't know who could have really been showing any scummy behavior, I just don't have an eye for that kind of stuff.
Oh, on that note, I'm going to have to request a replacement, and yes I realise how much of a dick move this is, doing so on the first day, but I just feel like crap from this game already and I think I would just informally leave anyway.
Post by: Deus Asmoth on November 19, 2014, 12:50:36 pm
Post by: Comrade Shamrock on November 19, 2014, 02:19:28 pm
Comrade Shamrock: What are your current top two picks for scum and why?
You would be my first choice as scum. There is the matter of your voting while we are most definitely in the RVS. You only seem to vote with something somebody else has already suggest. I didn't like krusaders question. Then you came in with the same point, except with a vote. You also did the same thing with the no lynch vote. Dumbo suggests you go along with it. I think that if you are scum you are trying to find keep some room to maneuver. So that if something bad happens or if someone gets killed you can argue that you thought the point was valid and you were just following on from there.
My other choice would be masked. I really don't like that question about targets he asked. He also asks hypothetical questions. He dismisses a few of answers as WIFOM. There really isn't much that can be done about that as everything in the question is hypothetical. But it seems like he's disregarding that there is more than one possible answer and reason for things. I'm not sure but in my opinion this encourages tunnel vision which is not good in this game.
If you were the mafia role cop, would you regard yourself as more important than your ordinary partner and therefore more likely to bus him?
Ranger:
Please group anything you wish to address to a player in one part next time please. I almost missed the third part addressed to me near the bottom it also made it a hassle to get the questions addressed to me in those quotes..
Town, it's much more fun. As a mafia you know who to have a reasonable degree of trust (they can still bus you just for the credit). You're also much more aware of who is what. I really don't like that, it take some of the fun out of trying to find who you can trust. You also have info which you can't really use without someone asking how you got it, like say if someone claimed cop and accused you to get the lynch pushed but you knew someone else was.QuoteRangerCado:I prefer Mafia for being able to know a good portion of whats going bump in the night, and I like to be against the odds in a lot of games when it comes to numbers. A bit of a pride thing unfortunately, but I like being faced with many opponents and coming out on top.
Which would you prefer to be. A townie or mafia? Why?
I think I'll ask the same question of you. Town or mafia?
Sleep was the primary factor involved. It was 00:14 where I am. I wanted to go to bed. I still can't think of any question I'd ask in regards to that.masked_krusader:Comrade: There is a very simple solution to counterclaims that makes it easy to figure out. Unless its MYLO or LYLO, then we just lynch one and if the counter claim was a false claim, we lynch the other and thereby lower the mafia numbers in the end. Of course this doesn't work very well AT MYLO and LYLO, but then its a different situation and would have to be dealt with on a case by case basis.
But if there is a counterclaim it means that someone is definitely a liar.
Also, why no follow up question here? You seem to just be stating a single hole you've found but not adding a question with it. Any reason behind this?
What would be your favourite mafia role? Why?
Persus:
When in doubt blame Nerjin. In the other BM I was in he in his IC voice said to never ask that question. As to before that he had the time to ask a single question which while it was addressed to everyone I don't know it seemed like an easy question to ask, especially since he didn't ask anything else except the request for his name to be fixed. It seemed a little lazy to me and he could have just been asking an easy question to everyone so he could appear like he was doing something.
Post by: Scintillant on November 19, 2014, 02:45:36 pm
First off, I'm not aware of what VIs are :P Knowledge of terms is not the same as actually knowing what to do. I've read lots of mafia games, so I know most of the terminology. However, having not actually played before this, I don't really know what's considered a good action or a scum action. As you said yoursef, I'm making newbtown mistakes. And that's because I am newbtown.Just out of curiosity, where did I display such unusual competence as to get this response? :PWell, you've got a certain competency about terms and various aspects of the game. On the other hand, you've made some very obvious newbtown mistakes that create a pro-scum game state, which makes me rather suspicious. Someone who is aware of what VIs are should be well aware that echoing other players and voting for a No Lynch on D1 are not pro-town actions.
Persus13:
As a newbie, I don't really know how to play properly, so I'm asking someone more experienced for advice ;)Persus13: What basic survival tips would you give to a new player like me?Why is the focus of this question on survival as opposed to finding scum?
Jailkeepers can't protect themselves.Didn't know that, thanks for the info.
I didn't miss his question, I just thought that reiterating his argument, along with actually voting masked_krusader, would make for a stronger overall case.You posted your question 20 minutes after Shamrock posted his. How did you miss Shamrock's question?Scintillant:I did independently arrive at this conclusion, I just had the misfortune of posting it after you. Great minds think alike, I guess :P
While you're here, why do you seem to be basically parroting what I said? While you have thrown the first vote, your accusation is the basically same as mine. Yours is shorter and packs more of a punch, while it is more effective it left me wondering. Did you find this suspicious or are you just following on from what I said?
Also,
Spoiler: Forum Question (click to show/hide)
Post by: masked_krusader on November 19, 2014, 03:12:14 pm
Krusader:...derp... I need to pay more attention to my own answers. I thought I had mentioned that, but I didn't.Your answer says who you'd pick if you weren't certain on scum. However, it says nothing about what you'd do if you did know scum. Why is this? And could you please answer it?Krusader:That would depend on how certain I am on the identity of scum. If I wasn't certain, then I'd try to protect whoever was painting the biggest target on themselves. Lacking that, too, I'd probably be random in the hopes of interrupting a nightkill.
What would be your criteria for targetting people as the jailer?
What I meant to be the first part of my answer was if I was certain of scum, then I'd jail one of them to see if I could block the nightkill and/or the rolecop (if applicable).
What exactly were you hoping to accomplish with this question? You yourself admit that you couldn't get any useful info from it.Sorry, missed that one.Scripten
If a scummy player was lynched, but flipped town, how would you proceed?
Take a look at the wagon that got them lynched. Look for people on the wagon but not particularly committing to it. Move on to other reads. Mislynches are just a fact of the game. Getting too upset over one can shake up your town game.
What about this question do you think suggests at my alignment?
Masked_Krusader, can you please answer the question I asked you in this post?
I think it would suggest that you are town, but I couldn't really be certain either way.
What about this question do you think suggests at my alignment?I think it would suggest that you are town, but I couldn't really be certain either way.
That's not quite what I meant. Scint sort of covered it already. I mean, what goal did you have in mind when you asked this question? How would me answering it help you determine my alignment?
Keep in mind that I'm not asking you these questions just to be mean. I want to understand your thought process.
It was an RVS question, so it's purpose was to spark conversation. (Although, I wasn't expecting it to spark a conversation about itself, though. :P)
Persus13: Heyo, any thoughts so far?You seem pretty experienced.
Scintellant seems like he understands a little how to play like town, but hasn't mastered it. He also is copying people, which is a bit odd.
Krusader seems to understand how the game is played pretty well.
Shamrock is being really aggressive, which is something a lot of people do, especially when starting out, but isn't actually necessary.
Execute is flailing a lot.
SBC, Deus Asmoth and Ranger Cado need to post more before I can get a fix on them.
WEWT
Krusader:Besides almost inevitable scum-win because BM, anyway.It's not inevitable, I've definitely seen town win BMs before, so don't be so defeatist.
Heh, sorry, I was referencing all the 'Mafia Wins!' that I saw in the titles of previous BMs.
You can do eet, town! Show those scummy scum who's boss!
Scintillant:Comrade Shamrock: What are your current top two picks for scum and why?
My other choice would be masked. I really don't like that question about targets he asked. He also asks hypothetical questions. He dismisses a few of answers as WIFOM. There really isn't much that can be done about that as everything in the question is hypothetical. But it seems like he's disregarding that there is more than one possible answer and reason for things. I'm not sure but in my opinion this encourages tunnel vision which is not good in this game.
How is asking hypothetical questions scummy, Comrade? We're in the RVS stage, so asking hypothetical questions is generally how it starts. It starts off the conversations that the rest of the game will be based on. As for the WIFOM, a lot of it was WIFOM. Both responses to my mafia target question were pushing suspicion based on speculation of how the mafia would play, which is generally useless for scumhunting. Also, where did I disregard alternate explanations? If it seemed like I did, I didn't mean to come off that way.
SBC
SuperblackcatCan you answer this question?
Do you expect any silly gambits this game?
Unvote.
Post by: Scintillant on November 19, 2014, 03:22:38 pm
Quote from: Comrade Shamrock
If you were the mafia role cop, would you regard yourself as more important than your ordinary partner and therefore more likely to bus him?No. I can't really see any benefit to being role cop over regular mafia. Although role cop is useful for finding and eliminating the town power roles, I don't think it provides that much benefit to bus your partner over (meaning that I might still bus, I just wouldn't take role cop status into account when deciding).
Post by: Deus Asmoth on November 19, 2014, 04:40:05 pm
Scintillant, what benefit did you see in no-lynching the first day, and why did you change your mind so quickly?
Post by: Scintillant on November 19, 2014, 04:52:42 pm
Scintillant, a question:I voted no lynch because I didn't feel confident enough to put a vote on someone. I was planning on holding my vote on no lynch until I felt I had enough evidence to call scum with reasonable confidence. As for why I changed my mind, both ICs and multiple other people said D1 no lynch was a very bad idea, so I unvoted.Scintillant, what benefit did you see in no-lynching the first day, and why did you change your mind so quickly?
Post by: Comrade Shamrock on November 19, 2014, 04:54:56 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
It's not that you're asking hypothetical questions. It's just that you dismiss the answers as WIFOM. I find these questions are more to find out the person's thought process. What do they think is more important? Possibly offer insight into their gameplay style. It also helps you understand how others perceive things. Also these are hypothetical answers to hypothetical questions, what did you expect? Everything that is hypothetically asked is prone to WIFOM in my opinion. There is no test you can conduct for proof. A lot of the questions are based in an ideal situation which face is rarely if ever going to happen.
Also in response to my attack on your question target I was following some IC advice from the last game I was in. Mind you I was a bit more aggressive. He just said never ask it.
Post by: Scintillant on November 19, 2014, 05:40:21 pm
It's not that you're asking hypothetical questions. It's just that you dismiss the answers as WIFOM. I find these questions are more to find out the person's thought process. What do they think is more important? Possibly offer insight into their gameplay style. It also helps you understand how others perceive things. Also these are hypothetical answers to hypothetical questions, what did you expect? Everything that is hypothetically asked is prone to WIFOM in my opinion. There is no test you can conduct for proof. A lot of the questions are based in an ideal situation which face is rarely if ever going to happen.I don't exactly understand the emphasized sections. First, you accuse masked_krusader of claiming WIFOM as a defense, but then later in the same paragraph, you essentially say that WIFOM is an acceptable defense because any hypothetical answer can be classified as WIFOM. What's up with that, Comrade?
Post by: TheDarkStar on November 19, 2014, 06:17:09 pm
Day 1 will end at 2 AM UTC on Friday, November 20th (47-48 hours from now). Weekends will not be counted in the time for a day or a night.
Votes:
Scripten:
Deus Asmoth:
Execute/Dumbo.exe: Deus Asmoth
masked_krusader:
Comrade Shamrock: RangerCado, Scintillant
RangerCado:
Scintillant: Persus13
Superblackcat: Scripten
Persus13:
No Lynch:
Not voting: Execute/Dumbo.exe, masked_krusader, Comrade Shamrock, Superblackcat
Also, is there any way to only quote part of a post? Cause the only way I can see is quote the whole post and cut out the parts you don't need.
Unfortunately no, you have to do it by cutting parts off of the full post.
Post by: Scintillant on November 19, 2014, 07:35:56 pm
I was planning on holding my vote on no lynch until I felt I had enough evidence to call scum with reasonable confidenceOr until near the end of the day, at which point I would vote for the person I thought scummiest.
Post by: masked_krusader on November 19, 2014, 08:46:38 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
It's not that you're asking hypothetical questions. It's just that you dismiss the answers as WIFOM. I find these questions are more to find out the person's thought process. What do they think is more important? Possibly offer insight into their gameplay style. It also helps you understand how others perceive things. Also these are hypothetical answers to hypothetical questions, what did you expect? Everything that is hypothetically asked is prone to WIFOM in my opinion. There is no test you can conduct for proof. A lot of the questions are based in an ideal situation which face is rarely if ever going to happen.
Also in response to my attack on your question target I was following some IC advice from the last game I was in. Mind you I was a bit more aggressive. He just said never ask it.
Of the two instances you quoted, the first weren't even answers, they were attacks based on pure speculation. WIFOM. The second wasn't an answer, either, it was me going off on a WIFOM-y tangent. I never dismissed answers, Comrade, I defended myself from a baseless accusation, and started rambling. I don't think either one is very scummy. You seem to be pushing a weak case, though.
Post by: masked_krusader on November 19, 2014, 08:52:08 pm
Day 1 will end at 2 AM UTC on Thursday, November 20th (47-48 hours from now). Weekends will not be counted in the time for a day or a night.
Wait a second, isn't 2 AM UTC in ten minutes? I'm confused.
Post by: Scintillant on November 19, 2014, 09:27:59 pm
Post by: masked_krusader on November 19, 2014, 09:34:36 pm
Post by: Scintillant on November 19, 2014, 09:42:04 pm
Post by: Persus13 on November 19, 2014, 09:49:42 pm
Actually, I just looked at the other periodic DarkStar posts, and all of them say that Day 1 would end a half hour ago. Hmm...I think he meant to say 2 AM UTC Friday, instead of Thursday, since we're supposed to have 72 hour days.
Post by: RangerCado on November 19, 2014, 10:02:58 pm
Scripten: Fair enough on all accounts there, though I do think that its usually just a break the ice kind of question on the first point.
Vote Execute. Trying to get a no lynch on day 1 can only be bad for the town, and it's the most suspicious play I've seen so far.Deus: Alright, this is odd to me. I think most of us can agree its just a newbie misconception to go for a no lynch. And when its already been resolved, theres REALLY no need to push a vote on them unless you have something else to back it up. And considering its both your only point, and a post lacking in any questions to further your hunting, I'd say this is a pretty weak push at best. What are you trying to accomplish here?
Comrade: Sorry, wanted to get that post out and it was getting late already. Didn't have time to organize.
In a BM, probably the role cop. If I get blocked, my partner could still the the kill through, and I tend to lean towards the investigation roles as they let me get more information for whichever side I am a part of.Sleep was the primary factor involved. It was 00:14 where I am. I wanted to go to bed. I still can't think of any question I'd ask in regards to that.masked_krusader:Comrade: There is a very simple solution to counterclaims that makes it easy to figure out. Unless its MYLO or LYLO, then we just lynch one and if the counter claim was a false claim, we lynch the other and thereby lower the mafia numbers in the end. Of course this doesn't work very well AT MYLO and LYLO, but then its a different situation and would have to be dealt with on a case by case basis.
But if there is a counterclaim it means that someone is definitely a liar.
Also, why no follow up question here? You seem to just be stating a single hole you've found but not adding a question with it. Any reason behind this?
What would be your favourite mafia role? Why?
Whats the biggest scum tell you can think of and why? (Besides the annoying answer of them admitting it.) Also, why all the prodding about RVS questions with Krusader? Seriously, I don't get it when things are still somewhat in that stage. What was so suspicious of his questions?
Alright, I will give you that though, that IS a lot of throwing things off as WIFOM.
Scintillant: ...I don't see this. I see a re-affirmation of what he's saying, that you should answer the hypothetical questions with hypothetical answers and not dismiss them as getting into WIFOM with only half answers accompanying them. Why interpret it like this exactly?It's not that you're asking hypothetical questions. It's just that you dismiss the answers as WIFOM. I find these questions are more to find out the person's thought process. What do they think is more important? Possibly offer insight into their gameplay style. It also helps you understand how others perceive things. Also these are hypothetical answers to hypothetical questions, what did you expect? Everything that is hypothetically asked is prone to WIFOM in my opinion. There is no test you can conduct for proof. A lot of the questions are based in an ideal situation which face is rarely if ever going to happen.I don't exactly understand the emphasized sections. First, you accuse masked_krusader of claiming WIFOM as a defense, but then later in the same paragraph, you essentially say that WIFOM is an acceptable defense because any hypothetical answer can be classified as WIFOM. What's up with that, Comrade?
And this?
Votes hold power, and pressure. Use it, don't hold it back until the end. Unvote, Vote Scintillant. Where is this line of thinking coming from?I was planning on holding my vote on no lynch until I felt I had enough evidence to call scum with reasonable confidenceOr until near the end of the day, at which point I would vote for the person I thought scummiest.
Post by: Superblackcat on November 19, 2014, 10:07:46 pm
Quote
Superblackcat
Do you expect any silly gambits this game?
No, I do not, It's a pretty standard setup beginner mafia, gambits won't happen, in my opinion, until scum manages to survive to late game. And even then, the chances of it happening are low.
Post by: Scintillant on November 19, 2014, 10:23:04 pm
First off, your first and fourth quotes seem to be broken. You might want to look into that.
It seems to me that he is saying that the questions that started this whole thing were hypothetical, and thus WIFOMable. With this statement, I don't think he's really in a position to complain about masked_krusader dismissing the answers as WIFOM. While I agree that krusader's answers were a bit lacking, I'm not really liking Shamrock's logic here.Scintillant: ...I don't see this. I see a re-affirmation of what he's saying, that you should answer the hypothetical questions with hypothetical answers and not dismiss them as getting into WIFOM with only half answers accompanying them. Why interpret it like this exactly?It's not that you're asking hypothetical questions. It's just that you dismiss the answers as WIFOM. I find these questions are more to find out the person's thought process. What do they think is more important? Possibly offer insight into their gameplay style. It also helps you understand how others perceive things. Also these are hypothetical answers to hypothetical questions, what did you expect? Everything that is hypothetically asked is prone to WIFOM in my opinion. There is no test you can conduct for proof. A lot of the questions are based in an ideal situation which face is rarely if ever going to happen.I don't exactly understand the emphasized sections. First, you accuse masked_krusader of claiming WIFOM as a defense, but then later in the same paragraph, you essentially say that WIFOM is an acceptable defense because any hypothetical answer can be classified as WIFOM. What's up with that, Comrade?
Note that my first quote says that I would vote when I felt I had enough evidence. These quotes don't mean that I'll sit back, lurk, and let everyone else do all the scumhunting. On the contrary, I plan on continuing to contribute. What I mean was that IF by the end of the day, I still didn't have the evidence I felt I needed to call scum on someone, I would vote for the scummiest person.Votes hold power, and pressure. Use it, don't hold it back until the end. Unvote, Vote Scintillant. Where is this line of thinking coming from?I was planning on holding my vote on no lynch until I felt I had enough evidence to call scum with reasonable confidenceOr until near the end of the day, at which point I would vote for the person I thought scummiest.
Superblackcat:
Would you mind answering this question here?
Any thoughts on the current game state? What do you think about the various goings-on such as the interaction between myself and Comrade Shamrock, the relationship between Shamrock and Scint where they occasionally seem to echo one another, the push by Execute/Dumbo.exe for a NoLynch, or the mysterious absence of Persus13?
Post by: TheDarkStar on November 19, 2014, 10:31:38 pm
Actually, I just looked at the other periodic DarkStar posts, and all of them say that Day 1 would end a half hour ago. Hmm...I think he meant to say 2 AM UTC Friday, instead of Thursday, since we're supposed to have 72 hour days.
Friday was displayed all along. No government coverups are in effect. Carry on as usual. ;)
Post by: Scintillant on November 19, 2014, 11:36:44 pm
Why do you say "until"? What makes you so certain that scum will survive until late game?QuoteSuperblackcat
Do you expect any silly gambits this game?
No, I do not, It's a pretty standard setup beginner mafia, gambits won't happen, in my opinion, until scum manages to survive to late game. And even then, the chances of it happening are low.
Post by: Deus Asmoth on November 20, 2014, 03:32:41 am
Post by: masked_krusader on November 20, 2014, 11:31:45 am
Can I get reads? I think the game has gone long enough that people will have non-null reads on most everyone.
My reads:
- Scripten
- Deus Asmoth
- Execute/Dumbo.exe
- Comrade Shamrock
- RangerCado
- Scintillant
- Masked_Krusader
- Superblackcat
- Persus13
Post by: Comrade Shamrock on November 20, 2014, 12:50:49 pm
What do you think on this case between masked and Scintillant on me? Please write down your thoughts and then read the part addressed to masked. Has anything changed after you read that?
masked_krusader:
Tried to push suspicion over an RVS question, then pursues a case without anything on his target. Scummiest so far.
- Comrade Shamrock
I do admit I did push you on an RVS but so did Scintillant. The exact same question in fact. I was not actually even trying to push a case on you at all. I know full well I don't have anything even remotely substantial. I'm just got a bad feel from your responses. It isn't very easy to put into words either. I was asked by Scintillant on who I thought was the scummiest.
Comrade Shamrock: What are your current top two picks for scum and why?
My responses were you and him.
How is asking hypothetical questions scummy, Comrade? We're in the RVS stage, so asking hypothetical questions is generally how it starts. It starts off the conversations that the rest of the game will be based on. As for the WIFOM, a lot of it was WIFOM. Both responses to my mafia target question were pushing suspicion based on speculation of how the mafia would play, which is generally useless for scumhunting. Also, where did I disregard alternate explanations? If it seemed like I did, I didn't mean to come off that way.
Then you asked me to elaborate so I did. My reasoning is threadbare as I'm full aware, I don't feel confident enough in my reasoning to vote let alone convince another. I was just giving my reasoning behind my feelings not trying to push a case.
Everyone:
Has anyone else noticed that the two people I voiced as my top picks for scum are the only ones voting me? Was anyone else planning on voting me or thought I was scummy enough to make a vote?
DarkStar:
Extendomundo please.
Post by: Deus Asmoth on November 20, 2014, 01:17:22 pm
Scintillant: Doesn't seem to be bringing anything new to the table, and abandoned his no lynch vote as soon as he saw it was unpopular. Possibly has bad timing, could be trying to find a band wagon to jump on. Leaning towards scum for him.
Execute: Inactive, went for a no lynch, asked for a replacement when he got voted for. I'm getting a scum vibe off him, others say it was a newbie mistake, so I may be wrong.
Masked: Seems kind of defensive about earlier questions, still in the grey area but leaning towards town.
Shamrock: Definitely scum hunting, a bit aggressive. Town.
Scripten: Lots of posting, hunting for scum. More than likely town.
I don't have a read on anyone else aside from them not posting a lot.
Shamrock: I'm not getting a scum read off you, though you may be a bit over zealous in your questioning of Masked.
Unvote, my case on Execute appears to be poor at best.
Post by: Scintillant on November 20, 2014, 01:19:15 pm
Deus Asmoth: Active and scumhunting. Town lean.
Execute: Not posting much, lurky, not contributing to scumhunt, posting is reactive only. Scum and most likely will be my vote once I'm satisfied with Comrade's answer to my question.
masked_krusader: Active and scumhunting. Answers are occasionally vague/WIFOMy. Scum lean.
Comrade: Active, scumhunting, but has occasional vague responses, and needs to answer my question. Slight scum lean.
RangerCado: Not posting much, but occupied with RL. Posts are huge and content-filled. Town lean.
Scintillant: Obviously town :P
Superblackcat: Lurking, reactive play, slow with answering questions. Scum lean.
Persus13: Similar to Ranger - not posting much, but his posts have a lot of thought out content. Seems to be occupied with KYOSN and RL. Town lean.
Post by: Scintillant on November 20, 2014, 01:24:20 pm
I was not actually even trying to push a case on you at all. I know full well I don't have anything even remotely substantial. I'm just got a bad feel from your responses. It isn't very easy to put into words either.Answer seems a tad evasive, bt I'm satisfied for now. Unvote Comrade. Vote Execute.
Post by: Scripten on November 20, 2014, 01:28:16 pm
Scripten:So, looks like we have some new blood in here.I'm not completely sure I understand this question. Are you implying that Execute has a scum role?
Execute/Dumbo.exe: How do you feel your play will differ this game from when you have a town role?
Yeah. Just a reaction test to see if he panicked. (For example, if he answered hyper-defensively or, less likely, scumslipped in his reply.) Even though he appeared to misunderstand my question, I found his answer to lean more town than scum just by its nature. Of course, this was also literally the first interaction in the game, so my read is liable to change.
First off, I'm not aware of what VIs are :P Knowledge of terms is not the same as actually knowing what to do. I've read lots of mafia games, so I know most of the terminology. However, having not actually played before this, I don't really know what's considered a good action or a scum action. As you said yoursef, I'm making newbtown mistakes. And that's because I am newbtown.
Hm.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
You sure about that?
Scripten:
What do you think on this case between masked and Scintillant on me? Please write down your thoughts and then read the part addressed to masked. Has anything changed after you read that?
-snip-
Everyone:
Has anyone else noticed that the two people I voiced as my top picks for scum are the only ones voting me? Was anyone else planning on voting me or thought I was scummy enough to make a vote?
Eh, it's a fairly standard newbie game case. Masked_krusader appears to be pursuing a bit of OMGUS, but that's not particularly telling in this situation. Scintillant is mislynch-bait, IMO. He's new and has read some games, but his play is currently newbtown rather than newbscum. That said, I don't appreciate his taking refuge in inexperience.
And yes, I've noticed that. I don't think it's as much of a scumtell as you may think it is. It's easy to get caught up feeling that the scumteam is after you. One thing that I've noticed is that, oftentimes, tunnels between players are town vs. town. (A tunnel is essentially an argument that excludes the greater game state.)
Everyone: Superblackcat is probably scum. Note the difference between his play and Persus13's. Can everyone give me as in-depth a list as they can hack as to what SBC has contributed to the game?
Deus Asmoth is also on my scum radar. Would not be surprised if they were the scumteam.
Post by: Scintillant on November 20, 2014, 01:48:02 pm
Derp :/ Knew the term, but not the abbreviation.First off, I'm not aware of what VIs are :P Knowledge of terms is not the same as actually knowing what to do. I've read lots of mafia games, so I know most of the terminology. However, having not actually played before this, I don't really know what's considered a good action or a scum action. As you said yoursef, I'm making newbtown mistakes. And that's because I am newbtown.
Hm.Spoiler (click to show/hide)
You sure about that?
Everyone: Superblackcat is probably scum. Note the difference between his play and Persus13's. Can everyone give me as in-depth a list as they can hack as to what SBC has contributed to the game?He has, in order:
Joined as IC
Asked two questions here
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Question (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Answer (click to show/hide)
As IC, recommended against no-lynch, like several others.
Answered a question from masked_krusader
Spoiler: Question (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Answer (click to show/hide)
Post by: Deus Asmoth on November 20, 2014, 01:56:14 pm
Post by: Scintillant on November 20, 2014, 02:01:06 pm
Scintillant, why are you voting for Execute over SBC considering you've given the same reasoning for your scum read on both of them?Execute has posted slightly less and has done less scumhunting. Also, I want to get him to contribute. However, FoS Superblackcat.
Post by: Comrade Shamrock on November 20, 2014, 02:12:13 pm
Sorry about missing this. I'm not claiming WIFOM is an acceptable defence. It's just that I think that RVS questions will always have a little WIFOM no matter what, as you have absolutely no clue as to their alignment or at least not a good enough grasp. He then dismissed our interrupt to night kill question as WIFOM. While yes it could well be interpreted as that. I can't help but think it may have been something else.It's not that you're asking hypothetical questions. It's just that you dismiss the answers as WIFOM. I find these questions are more to find out the person's thought process. What do they think is more important? Possibly offer insight into their gameplay style. It also helps you understand how others perceive things. Also these are hypothetical answers to hypothetical questions, what did you expect? Everything that is hypothetically asked is prone to WIFOM in my opinion. There is no test you can conduct for proof. A lot of the questions are based in an ideal situation which face is rarely if ever going to happen.I don't exactly understand the emphasized sections. First, you accuse masked_krusader of claiming WIFOM as a defense, but then later in the same paragraph, you essentially say that WIFOM is an acceptable defense because any hypothetical answer can be classified as WIFOM. What's up with that, Comrade?
Scripten:
I'm not saying it was a huge scumtell but I find both people I selected a bit too coincidental. But then don't take my word for it, I'm a bit paranoid. Could just be hurt feelings bleeding over (on both sides too).
It could also be his playstyle. But yes he posts very little (content wise, he has more posts but has offered less than Persus), has so far offered little in the way of advice (Persus has both voted and Fos'ed) and no suspicions are given or even hinted at despite a large amount of available posts to draw a conclusion from.
Post by: Scripten on November 20, 2014, 02:20:01 pm
Scintillant, why are you voting for Execute over SBC considering you've given the same reasoning for your scum read on both of them?Execute has posted slightly less and has done less scumhunting. Also, I want to get him to contribute. However, FoS Superblackcat.
This is not true. Execute has posted two more times than SBC and his posts have more content than SBC's.
Also keep in mind that SBC is an IC, so some of his content is also a part of his responsibility as that role rather than as legitimate game content.
Also, pretty sure we'll need to extend. Want to see more from the less talkative folk.
Post by: masked_krusader on November 20, 2014, 02:23:15 pm
Scripten:
What do you think on this case between masked and Scintillant on me? Please write down your thoughts and then read the part addressed to masked. Has anything changed after you read that?
masked_krusader:Tried to push suspicion over an RVS question, then pursues a case without anything on his target. Scummiest so far.
- Comrade Shamrock
I do admit I did push you on an RVS but so did Scintillant. The exact same question in fact. I was not actually even trying to push a case on you at all. I know full well I don't have anything even remotely substantial. I'm just got a bad feel from your responses. It isn't very easy to put into words either. I was asked by Scintillant on who I thought was the scummiest.Comrade Shamrock: What are your current top two picks for scum and why?
My responses were you and him.How is asking hypothetical questions scummy, Comrade? We're in the RVS stage, so asking hypothetical questions is generally how it starts. It starts off the conversations that the rest of the game will be based on. As for the WIFOM, a lot of it was WIFOM. Both responses to my mafia target question were pushing suspicion based on speculation of how the mafia would play, which is generally useless for scumhunting. Also, where did I disregard alternate explanations? If it seemed like I did, I didn't mean to come off that way.
Then you asked me to elaborate so I did. My reasoning is threadbare as I'm full aware, I don't feel confident enough in my reasoning to vote let alone convince another. I was just giving my reasoning behind my feelings not trying to push a case.
Everyone:
Has anyone else noticed that the two people I voiced as my top picks for scum are the only ones voting me? Was anyone else planning on voting me or thought I was scummy enough to make a vote?
DarkStar:
Extendomundo please.
Well, in that case, unvote.
I shall place my vote on SBC, if he doesn't post anytime soon.
Post by: Persus13 on November 20, 2014, 03:01:53 pm
Extend.
EveryoneMost people are still null, it can be a bit hard for me to tell if people are making newbie mistakes, or are scummy.
Can I get reads? I think the game has gone long enough that people will have non-null reads on most everyone.
I'm suspicious of Shamrock and Scintellent, Shamrock because he seems overly aggressive, and Scintellent because it seemed like all his scum attacks were the same as Shamrock's.
Everyone: Superblackcat is probably scum. Note the difference between his play and Persus13's. Can everyone give me as in-depth a list as they can hack as to what SBC has contributed to the game?Me and SBC play differently normally. SBC tends to have less content, whereas when I post, T tend to have either short posts in quick succession, or one fairly lengthy post. One thing you guys seem to be partly ignoring is that Mafia don't always lurk, Mafia tend to try to be in the middle of the pack in terms of activity.
Shamrock
Scripten:Why are you asking Scripten for approval here?
What do you think on this case between masked and Scintillant on me? Please write down your thoughts and then read the part addressed to masked. Has anything changed after you read that?
Everyone:What are you trying to imply here? Because this seems a bit like a threat.
Has anyone else noticed that the two people I voiced as my top picks for scum are the only ones voting me? Was anyone else planning on voting me or thought I was scummy enough to make a vote?
I'll take the bait and vote you.
Post by: Persus13 on November 20, 2014, 03:02:43 pm
What are you two arguing over exactly? I'm not sure I follow it.
Post by: Scintillant on November 20, 2014, 03:27:50 pm
Post by: Scripten on November 20, 2014, 03:38:01 pm
Everyone: Superblackcat is probably scum. Note the difference between his play and Persus13's. Can everyone give me as in-depth a list as they can hack as to what SBC has contributed to the game?Me and SBC play differently normally. SBC tends to have less content, whereas when I post, T tend to have either short posts in quick succession, or one fairly lengthy post. One thing you guys seem to be partly ignoring is that Mafia don't always lurk, Mafia tend to try to be in the middle of the pack in terms of activity.
The problem I have is that SBC is still posting while not really contributing anything. It's the difference between lurking (which is null) and active lurking (which is scummy) that is setting off red flags.
Scripten:Why are you asking Scripten for approval here?
What do you think on this case between masked and Scintillant on me? Please write down your thoughts and then read the part addressed to masked. Has anything changed after you read that?
I didn't get that feeling from his post. Can you go into more detail about how this looks like Shamrock asking for my approval?
Post by: Comrade Shamrock on November 20, 2014, 04:04:31 pm
Scintillant asked me who my top two scum are. I replied that Krusader was one of my picks. Krusader then asked me to elaborate on my thoughts. Krusader then thought I was building a case out of thin air following my explanation. It is very thin but I wasn't attempting to build a case either. Then it went to the voting stage.
Spoiler: The conversation (click to show/hide)
As to why I asked Scripten. I wanted a more experienced players opinion. Since you and SBC seem to have a long time between posts and I was unsure of the next time you'd be on. Scripten was the most convenient and readily available who replies more often even if he's not an IC. Not sure what you think I was asking for him to approve though. Could please elaborate?
I wanted to know if anyone else thought I was scummy enough to warrant a lynch. It could have just been that feeling bled over from my earlier top two choice for scum or everyone thought I was trying to pull off a really horribly bad lynch which I attempted to in the last game (Alleecat, overreaction to a joke). I wanted to clarify which one was happening. I was also implying that I found it odd that both my top two picks were voting me.Everyone:What are you trying to imply here? Because this seems a bit like a threat.
Has anyone else noticed that the two people I voiced as my top picks for scum are the only ones voting me? Was anyone else planning on voting me or thought I was scummy enough to make a vote?
I'll take the bait and vote you.
I'm suspicious of Shamrock [Part regarding Scintillant edited out] because he seems overly aggressive
Shamrock is being really aggressive, which is something a lot of people do, especially when starting out, but isn't actually necessary.
Why the change of heart?
Post by: Deus Asmoth on November 20, 2014, 04:13:16 pm
Post by: Comrade Shamrock on November 20, 2014, 04:21:23 pm
Extend, SBC. Execute is lurking too and seems more suspicious to me, but a scummy IC is more dangerous and Execute has at least made one vote.I think Execute appears to be lurking because he made a request for a replacement and may believe he's out of the game I'm not sure. Can anyone confirm?
Post by: masked_krusader on November 20, 2014, 04:21:34 pm
Krusader, Shamrock
What are you two arguing over exactly? I'm not sure I follow it.
It started when he accused my RVS question of being scummy, when it wasn't. Then he was talking about me "dismissing answers as WIFOM" when neither instance was an answer. His logic behind the original accusation was WIFOM, and the other was me cutting myself off before I went into WIFOM territory.
I'll see If I can find quotes.
masked_krusaderDeus AsmothWhy are you asking that question? It seems like a way to set up a fall guy if scum decide to kill that person. Which could result in the basics of he suggested he might have been an inexperienced enough scum to post it and go through with it, which leads to his lynching but he could really be town.
If you were mafia, who would you target?Unvote. Vote masked_krusader.
Your question hereseems scummy. It feels like a very good escape method if you were mafia. This way, you can safely NK whoever he says and then pin it on him. What was your reasoning behind this question?
Deus Asmoth
If you were mafia, who would you target?
I didn't even think of that scenario because it seems incredibly transparent. It also smells of WIFOM, but mostly it just seems like a way-too-prone-to-fail scum plan.
My reasoning behind asking it was that I thought it was a harmless RVS question.
Scintillant:Comrade Shamrock: What are your current top two picks for scum and why?
My other choice would be masked. I really don't like that question about targets he asked. He also asks hypothetical questions. He dismisses a few of answers as WIFOM. There really isn't much that can be done about that as everything in the question is hypothetical. But it seems like he's disregarding that there is more than one possible answer and reason for things. I'm not sure but in my opinion this encourages tunnel vision which is not good in this game.
How is asking hypothetical questions scummy, Comrade? We're in the RVS stage, so asking hypothetical questions is generally how it starts. It starts off the conversations that the rest of the game will be based on. As for the WIFOM, a lot of it was WIFOM. Both responses to my mafia target question were pushing suspicion based on speculation of how the mafia would play, which is generally useless for scumhunting. Also, where did I disregard alternate explanations? If it seemed like I did, I didn't mean to come off that way.
I believe these sum it up.
Post by: Comrade Shamrock on November 20, 2014, 05:01:07 pm
I wonder what mafia players have against Dr. Suess characters?
- Extensions count as opposition to hortens.
I know this isn't relevant but hopefully someone else finds this funny. I wonder how many other BM's this is in.
Post by: Deus Asmoth on November 20, 2014, 05:45:53 pm
Crusader, just curious as to why you've taken Shamrock's comments as being so aggressive, but not so much with Scintillant, especially considering it was actually Scin who called your question scummy in the first place.
Post by: Scintillant on November 20, 2014, 07:49:00 pm
Quote from: OP
Use of cryptographic hashing is not permitted.Just out of curiosity, has this ever come up in a mafia game? Or is it just a precaution?
Post by: Persus13 on November 20, 2014, 07:59:05 pm
Generally stuff that doesn't have to do with the ongoing game should go in the Banter and Out of game discussion thread as a nicety to avoid it cluttering up the thread.Quote from: OPUse of cryptographic hashing is not permitted.Just out of curiosity, has this ever come up in a mafia game? Or is it just a precaution?
There was a discussion about this awhile back. Start at this post and keep going. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=88720.msg5085475#msg5085475)
Post by: masked_krusader on November 20, 2014, 10:23:52 pm
Well, I've found all elephants to be worth opposing ever since Boatmurdered.
Crusader, just curious as to why you've taken Shamrock's comments as being so aggressive, but not so much with Scintillant, especially considering it was actually Scin who called your question scummy in the first place.
I wasn't the one that used the word aggressive, but the reason I was going after Comrade and not Scintillant was because Comrade mentioned it after the initial conversation, and Scintillant didn't.
Post by: RangerCado on November 20, 2014, 10:44:44 pm
Post by: Deus Asmoth on November 21, 2014, 11:51:56 am
Post by: Scripten on November 21, 2014, 01:28:09 pm
Scripten, what is it that put me on your scum radar?
Honestly, gut feeling, though I can come back once I've read over the game to supply a more competent case.
Post by: Scripten on November 21, 2014, 01:40:32 pm
Post by: Comrade Shamrock on November 21, 2014, 01:41:08 pm
Get in here and respond. Annoyingly your most active times are after 2am for me which means I'm probably not going to be around when you get online, but you were on this forum after the case against you got going and you still have not defended yourself. Are you just hoping it'll go away?
Darkstar:
What time has the extend pushed the day's end to (I think enough asked for it)? Also what's the case with execute?
Post by: Deus Asmoth on November 21, 2014, 02:35:20 pm
Post by: Deus Asmoth on November 21, 2014, 02:55:18 pm
Post by: Scripten on November 21, 2014, 04:13:49 pm
Scripten, if you're suspicious of me for not doing enough to advance the game, why are you so certain that Scintillant is town (or at least certain enough say it'd be a mislynch) when he doesn't seem to have done much other than agree with people?
Scintillant is a little suspicious, but my experience with the game is speaking to me. It's a matter of his tone while playing. One very large part of mafia is figuring out player motivation and psychology.
Post by: Scintillant on November 21, 2014, 04:55:18 pm
One very large part of mafia is figuring out player motivation and psychology.How exactly does this relate to my alignment?
Post by: RangerCado on November 21, 2014, 07:45:06 pm
Post by: TheDarkStar on November 21, 2014, 09:33:34 pm
Day 1 has been extended.
Day 1 will end at 2 AM UTC on Tuesday, November 20th (a few days from now). Weekends will not be counted in the time for a day or a night.
Votes:
Scripten:
Deus Asmoth:
Execute/Dumbo.exe: Scintillant
masked_krusader:
Comrade Shamrock: Persus13
RangerCado:
Scintillant: RangerCado
Superblackcat: Scripten, masked_krusader, Deus Asmoth, Comrade Shamrock
Persus13:
No Lynch:
Not voting: Execute/Dumbo.exe, Superblackcat
To extend: 3/3 - extended by 48 hours + a weekend
Darkstar:
What time has the extend pushed the day's end to (I think enough asked for it)? Also what's the case with execute?
execute is being replaced on schedule and this was not edited by the government after posting to cover up mistakes. Carry on.
*sigh* Due to being busy all tomorrow, and power failures occuring every half hour or so, I won't be able to get that post in.
It's OK; the weekend is coming up and so there's less pressure on you to post.
Post by: Scintillant on November 22, 2014, 12:06:25 am
Also, when was the last time that execute/dumbo.exe posted in this thread?Looks to be about 2 1/2 days ago. Note that he asked for a replacement in that post, so he might think that he's no longer in this.
Post by: Scintillant on November 22, 2014, 06:59:23 pm
Post by: Scintillant on November 22, 2014, 07:38:04 pm
Post by: Scripten on November 22, 2014, 07:46:17 pm
Post by: TheDarkStar on November 22, 2014, 08:22:20 pm
I think we should shorten it back down.
Noted - there are now 1/5 of the required shorten votes.
Post by: Persus13 on November 23, 2014, 12:27:06 am
Man, I'm starting to think that the extension was a bad idea. I really doubt we can get any more conversation going until we have a lynch and an NK to talk about.It's the weekend, generally conversation dies out a bit during the weekend. In addition I'm currently on a trip in a hotel that you need to pay 10 bucks a day to get internet. So I need to request a replacement.
Post by: Scripten on November 23, 2014, 04:16:32 pm
One very large part of mafia is figuring out player motivation and psychology.How exactly does this relate to my alignment?
You said it yourself earlier. Newbtown vs. Newbscum. Most of my read on you comes from analyzing the way you post and pulling from past experiences with players that are similar to you. I might also be wrong. (In the NSBM game, I was wrong about Varee despite knowing he had to be town because I'd driven a mislynch on him twice before.)
That said, if we only trusted 100% sure reads, scum would win every game instead of most every game. :P I'm choosing to trust my intuition and various little tics in your play.
*sigh* Due to being busy all tomorrow, and power failures occuring every half hour or so, I won't be able to get that post in.
Any chance you'll be able to get it in either today or tomorrow? Still time to play the D1 game!
Man, I'm starting to think that the extension was a bad idea. I really doubt we can get any more conversation going until we have a lynch and an NK to talk about.
Thought experiment. Let's go through what associative reads you'll have depending on various lynches. Let's start with the easiest one.
What reads will you have on people if SuperBlackCat flips scum? What if he flips town?
Post by: TheDarkStar on November 23, 2014, 05:45:34 pm
Man, I'm starting to think that the extension was a bad idea. I really doubt we can get any more conversation going until we have a lynch and an NK to talk about.It's the weekend, generally conversation dies out a bit during the weekend. In addition I'm currently on a trip in a hotel that you need to pay 10 bucks a day to get internet. So I need to request a replacement.
Replacement request noted.
Post by: 4maskwolf on November 23, 2014, 05:47:07 pm
Edit (I can do this since I'm not in the game, right): Oh wait, Cheeetar's on the list first. Waitlist me for that, then.
Post by: TheDarkStar on November 23, 2014, 06:42:44 pm
Screw it, IC in me. I'll take his place.
Edit (I can do this since I'm not in the game, right): Oh wait, Cheeetar's on the list first. Waitlist me for that, then.
Now that I have time to get around to it, I'm updating replacement stuff. Cheeetar has replaced Persus13. I've also PM'd Dorsidwarf.
Post by: Cheeetar on November 23, 2014, 08:05:49 pm
Post by: Cheeetar on November 23, 2014, 08:54:56 pm
I'm perfectly okay with an SBC lynch, given his complete lack of content. However, it's not the best use of a lynch- I'd much rather he be modkilled or replaced or something. I'm going to use my time until the lynch scumhunting, rather than sitting and waiting for the flip.
Everyone: It is important to note that 3 people are voting for SBC purely because he's inactive. What will we learn from an SBC lynch beyond his role- has he had much interaction with other players?
masked_krusader: Your vote on SBC will remain there until he posts again. Do you believe he's faking an inability to post? Is your vote a 'punishment' for inactivity?
Deus Asmoth: You believed Execute to be more suspicious, and also lurking. Why then did you vote for SBC?
Comrade Shamrock: How will you react if SBC flips town? If he flips mafia? Would you unvote if SBC started posting again, and are you voting him because you believe his inactivity scummy or because you don't like his inactivity?
I do admit I did push you on an RVS but so did Scintillant. The exact same question in fact. I was not actually even trying to push a case on you at all. I know full well I don't have anything even remotely substantial. I'm just got a bad feel from your responses. It isn't very easy to put into words either. I was asked by Scintillant on who I thought was the scummiest.
This rubs me the complete wrong way. "I did a wrong thing, but so did this other person!" And then you say you weren't trying to push a case on somebody, as if this absolves your mistake. If you have a bad feeling from the way somebody is posting, you ought to be pushing and questioning them.
It seems as if you're playing in a very meek fashion, Comrade- not the way I'd advise mafia to be played, and one which seems to indicate to me a desire to not be noticed too much. It's a scummy way of playing, and I'm going to keep my vote on you.
As you said yoursef, I'm making newbtown mistakes. And that's because I am newbtown.
You're clearly one of the more 'knowledgeable' players Scintillant, and I don't think you should be playing off your mistakes as simply newness to mafia - mistakes often aren't scummy because it's more likely for new players to make them, they're scummy because it's more likely for scum to make them.
Post by: Scintillant on November 24, 2014, 02:23:27 am
Scripten:
Thought experiment. Let's go through what associative reads you'll have depending on various lynches. Let's start with the easiest one. What reads will you have on people if SuperBlackCat flips scum? What if he flips town?Sadly, I don't feel that I'll be able to extract any information from either of these cases, since everyone currently voting for him have the same argument, namely lurking. His profile shows he hasn't posted anywhere since the 20th, or just under 4 days ago, so he probably has an RL reason for not posting. However, even when he was here, he didn't contribute much, so he is most likely scum. Given this, I very much doubt that I'd get anything of use from lynching SBC.
Post by: Deus Asmoth on November 24, 2014, 04:33:26 am
Scintillant, wouldn't people who voted for SBC once he had a lot of votes and was obviously not posting be more suspicious than those who did so earlier if he flipped town?
Post by: Cheeetar on November 24, 2014, 04:45:20 am
Post by: Deus Asmoth on November 24, 2014, 06:05:39 am
I'd assume SBC would be more dangerous because of having more experience and making more calculated night kills than a beginner.
Post by: Dorsidwarf on November 24, 2014, 11:10:22 am
Post by: Scripten on November 24, 2014, 11:16:28 am
First off, Unvote Execute.
Scripten:Thought experiment. Let's go through what associative reads you'll have depending on various lynches. Let's start with the easiest one. What reads will you have on people if SuperBlackCat flips scum? What if he flips town?Sadly, I don't feel that I'll be able to extract any information from either of these cases, since everyone currently voting for him have the same argument, namely lurking. His profile shows he hasn't posted anywhere since the 20th, or just under 4 days ago, so he probably has an RL reason for not posting. However, even when he was here, he didn't contribute much, so he is most likely scum. Given this, I very much doubt that I'd get anything of use from lynching SBC.
This may be true. But let's say the lynch goes through anyway. It just might, considering that deadline is approaching fast and we do NOT want a no lynch on D1. Where will/would you go?
Post by: masked_krusader on November 24, 2014, 12:12:02 pm
masked_krusader: Your vote on SBC will remain there until he posts again. Do you believe he's faking an inability to post? Is your vote a 'punishment' for inactivity?
Well, it was a pressure vote to get him to post more, but if
His profile shows he hasn't posted anywhere since the 20th, or just under 4 days ago, so he probably has an RL reason for not posting.then I'm probably not going to stay with that vote.
Post by: Deus Asmoth on November 24, 2014, 12:59:54 pm
Scintillant, what's changed between when you voted for Execute and now that made you decide not to vote for him?
Post by: Comrade Shamrock on November 24, 2014, 01:05:50 pm
Comrade Shamrock: How will you react if SBC flips town? If he flips mafia? Would you unvote if SBC started posting again, and are you voting him because you believe his inactivity scummy or because you don't like his inactivity?I wouldn't be surprised anyway, if he flipped town, I'd be more surprised if he actually did flip mafia. The lack of content makes it very hard to judge his alignment to any degree. I have currently unvoted him because a new suspicion has emerged. As to why I was voting him. I find his inactivity mildly scummy. I dislike his inactivity, especially in his role of IC and feel that if he makes it to Lylo it will screw us over.
This is not just due to his activity but the length of his posts. They leave very little to try and discern his alignment. His style is beneficial to him. Very little to read on and little questioning makes him an unlikely scum target as he's not that active. He mightn't be lynched for that same reason (If he continued to post small ones). Very little to go on which makes it hard to make a concrete case towards either town or mafia. He wouldn't have built much trust with any surviving town members, which might make his cases, even if right, ineffective.
Scripten:
You are the one who started this SBC wagon. Yet you never saw fit to make a vote. You felt he was scum and wanted the rest of us to come up with reasons why. Fair enough, help the new players I guess. But you never extended it to anything beyond that. You offered speculation and encouragement but no direct involvement. Why? Are you trying to distance yourself from the lynch?
This I feel is a leading question. Which you said you directly disliked.
-
Everyone: Superblackcat is probably scum. Note the difference between his play and Persus13's. Can everyone give me as in-depth a list as they can hack as to what SBC has contributed to the game?
-
This is a leading question and I don't like that.You led us straight to this lynch. You asked a question which heavily implied he was scum and basically told us to go lynch him. So what is it you don't like about leading questions? You asked one yourself. So now you are a hypocrite and what's more you didn't back it with your own vote. This could mean you either didn't have confidence in your own analysis, which begs the question. Why did you imply that we should definitely lynch him? Or it could be a scum strategy.
Post by: Scripten on November 24, 2014, 01:41:06 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
This is a whole lot of fluff without much substance. You've repeated several points multiple times to pad out your arguments. To summarize:
- You think SBC's inactivity is mildly scummy.
- You think that his small, content-less posts will prevent him from being lynched.
- You think his cases will be ignored because of his inactivity.
While verbosity is not scummy, fluff definitely is. I will be keeping this in mind.
Scripten:
You are the one who started this SBC wagon. Yet you never saw fit to make a vote. You felt he was scum and wanted the rest of us to come up with reasons why. Fair enough, help the new players I guess. But you never extended it to anything beyond that. You offered speculation and encouragement but no direct involvement. Why? Are you trying to distance yourself from the lynch?
More misrepping. My vote was the first one on the SBC wagon. I didn't ask you to come up with reasons. I asked all of you to read through his posts and try to find something, anything, that suggested that his posts were at all pro-town.
Do you REALLY think I'm going to be distanced from SBC's lynch if it goes through? Come on, be honest.
Everyone: Superblackcat is probably scum. Note the difference between his play and Persus13's. Can everyone give me as in-depth a list as they can hack as to what SBC has contributed to the game?This I feel is a leading question.
In the least rude way possible for me to say this, you are just wrong. This is not a leading question and I consider it disingenuous for you to present it as such.
This is a leading question and I don't like that.
You specifically quoted me here. Go back and look at the question I was referring to. Your question was as follows:
Scripten:
If you won't confront, are you at least going to ask questions?
Your question specifically accused me of being passive and not asking questions, which has been proven to be completely and utterly wrong.
My question does accuse SBC of being scum, but because of his lack of any pro-town contributions to the game state. I asked that question specifically to give the entire town a chance to prove me wrong. Instead of trying to do so, you instead attacked me for the question via dubious logic.
You led us straight to this lynch. You asked a question which heavily implied he was scum and basically told us to go lynch him. So what is it you don't like about leading questions? You asked one yourself. So now you are a hypocrite and what's more you didn't back it with your own vote. This could mean you either didn't have confidence in your own analysis, which begs the question. Why did you imply that we should definitely lynch him? Or it could be a scum strategy.
This entire quote is full of lies. I am voting SBC and have been for the majority of the game. I did not ask a leading question in the way that you are implying. If SBC flips town, my first scumread will be Comrade Shamrock due to his attempts to gain towncred via buddying up to SBC.
Post by: Comrade Shamrock on November 24, 2014, 01:59:06 pm
Scripten:
Oops sorry. Didn't see your vote I looked past here.
Didn't notice it was on page 3, Then Cheetar said 3 were voting. I put 2 and 2 together getting a very large damn number. You can call me the biggest goddamn idiot on earth and you'd be right.
It seems like a leading question.
Quote from: Wikipedia
For example, this question is leading:You said SBC was probably scum, then said Persus was the opposite ergo probably town. Then you said spot the differences between them. From Wikipedia's description it sounds like one.
Were you at KC's bar on the night of July 15?
Post by: Deus Asmoth on November 24, 2014, 02:13:34 pm
Post by: TheDarkStar on November 24, 2014, 08:03:52 pm
Dorsidwarf has replaced execute/dumbo.exe.
Post by: TheDarkStar on November 24, 2014, 08:27:32 pm
Day 1 will end at 2 AM UTC on Tuesday, November 20th (about 26.5 hours from now). Weekends will not be counted in the time for a day or a night.
Votes:
Scripten:
Deus Asmoth:
masked_krusader:
Comrade Shamrock:
RangerCado:
Scintillant: RangerCado
Superblackcat: Scripten, masked_krusader
No Lynch:
Not voting:
Post by: Cheeetar on November 24, 2014, 10:10:39 pm
masked_krusader: Your vote on SBC will remain there until he posts again. Do you believe he's faking an inability to post? Is your vote a 'punishment' for inactivity?
Well, it was a pressure vote to get him to post more, but ifHis profile shows he hasn't posted anywhere since the 20th, or just under 4 days ago, so he probably has an RL reason for not posting.then I'm probably not going to stay with that vote.
Sure! Who are you going to vote for, then? You have about 24 hours.
Post by: Scintillant on November 25, 2014, 01:40:06 am
Scintillant, wouldn't people who voted for SBC once he had a lot of votes and was obviously not posting be more suspicious than those who did so earlier if he flipped town?A bit, yes, since that is sort of bandwagoning.
Scintillant, what's changed between when you voted for Execute and now that made you decide not to vote for him?I voted for Execute because he was lurking, but also because he wasn't contributing to the scumhunt. Since there was a slight misunderstanding with the whole replacement thing, I saw that as a reason for the lurking and unvoted. However, I still am a bit suspicious of him and by extension, his replacement.
Scripten:
I'm assuming that you mean what I'd do (feel free to correct me if you meant something else). Now that I've thought a bit more on the matter and am not deathly tired, I think whichever way the SBC lynch goes, my suspicion would fall on Comrade. He was the last one on the SBC wagon, and he got on it with the same argument as Krusader used before him hereFirst off, Unvote Execute.This may be true. But let's say the lynch goes through anyway. It just might, considering that deadline is approaching fast and we do NOT want a no lynch on D1. Where will/would you go?
Scripten:Thought experiment. Let's go through what associative reads you'll have depending on various lynches. Let's start with the easiest one. What reads will you have on people if SuperBlackCat flips scum? What if he flips town?Sadly, I don't feel that I'll be able to extract any information from either of these cases, since everyone currently voting for him have the same argument, namely lurking. His profile shows he hasn't posted anywhere since the 20th, or just under 4 days ago, so he probably has an RL reason for not posting. However, even when he was here, he didn't contribute much, so he is most likely scum. Given this, I very much doubt that I'd get anything of use from lynching SBC.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Dorsidwarf on November 25, 2014, 02:13:49 am
Replacement for executedumbo here.
First off, some questions.
Shamrock
Do you feel that the best way to emphasise a point is to repeat it several times? Do you feel having a good working knowledge of people's general vote history is a good idea before accusing them of bandwagon voting?
Masked_Krusader
Have you actually done any serious scum hunting? Are you content to just dump your vote on a lurker and wander off?
If so, what makes you think it's a good idea to be lazy like that?
If not, why are you doing it?
Scripten
Are you content with your Superblackcat policy lynch? Not speaking against policy lunches here, but doesn't this logically free up even more of your time to analyse the rest of the players, since your votee is absent? Where's that going, beyond vague complaints about scilliniant. Also,
Everyone: Superblackcat is probably scum. Note the difference between his play and Persus13's. Can everyone give me as in-depth a list as they can hack as to what SBC has contributed to the game?This I feel is a leading question.
While Comrade hasn't got much of a case (whatsoever), I found this interesting. Stating a point, then asking a loaded question which is quite clearly designed to get other people to gather proof for that point, with bias towards the explicit statement?
That really is a leading question, if not directly ( Ie: 'find me proof sbc is scum guise' would be directly)
Scillinininant
Why do you think that inactivity ( from the forum, not just the game) is a scum tell for SBC, and why is saying that it isnt scummy?
Post by: Dorsidwarf on November 25, 2014, 02:15:50 am
Post by: Scintillant on November 25, 2014, 02:33:24 am
ScillinininantI'm not saying that total inactivity is a scum tell, but rater it means that something in RL is preventing him from posting. Lurking just here, now that's suspicious. My main beef with SBC is not really his lurking once the wagon started, since he was totally inactive during that period, but rather the fact that even before he went inactive, he wasn't really contributing much to the scumhunt.
Why do you think that inactivity ( from the forum, not just the game) is a scum tell for SBC, and why is saying that it isnt scummy?
Post by: Dorsidwarf on November 25, 2014, 02:42:25 am
Post by: Scintillant on November 25, 2014, 02:57:39 am
Post by: Dorsidwarf on November 25, 2014, 11:24:19 am
You're running out of time to defend yourself, you know. Do you plan on playing this game at all?
Post by: masked_krusader on November 25, 2014, 01:28:04 pm
Masked_Krusader
Have you actually done any serious scum hunting? Are you content to just dump your vote on a lurker and wander off?
If so, what makes you think it's a good idea to be lazy like that?
If not, why are you doing it?
Yup. Not as much as I should have (and could have), but recently RL called its siren call. Now that that's over with, I'll catch up on this thread.
*reads thread*
Comrade seems to be making a habit of flimsy cases. Not to mention part of his case on Scripten is an outright fabrication, namely, that Scripten hadn't voted for his target, when he did before me or anyone else did.
masked_krusader: Your vote on SBC will remain there until he posts again. Do you believe he's faking an inability to post? Is your vote a 'punishment' for inactivity?
Well, it was a pressure vote to get him to post more, but ifHis profile shows he hasn't posted anywhere since the 20th, or just under 4 days ago, so he probably has an RL reason for not posting.then I'm probably not going to stay with that vote.
Sure! Who are you going to vote for, then? You have about 24 hours.
And with this in mind, screw it, unvote. SBC seems likely to be replaced, so my vote staying on him would accomplish nothing.
Comrade is a scummy scum scummer.
Post by: Scripten on November 25, 2014, 03:28:05 pm
Unvote SBC
Vote Comrade Shamrock
We'll see what happens if SB gets replaced, though.
Post by: Comrade Shamrock on November 25, 2014, 04:05:54 pm
SBC: Got no read really. Not enough to judge off of. Could go either way.
Persus/Cheetar: Both have and had in depth posts. Clear reasoning, both scumhunted so town lean.
Ranger: A bit short on the number of posts (RL interference), but is in depth and makes good use of the time availible addressing everyone. Feels like town.
Scripten: Ignore most of what I've said before. I still think the question was leading. But he has actively scumhunted, pressed logical cases (unlike me, I seem to prefer chasing shadows).
Execute/Doris: Not enirely sure about this one due to the drop out. But if I had to hazard a guess I'd say execute was a confused town. Doris seems more capable so hopefully you'll get something better.
Scintillant: I feel he's scum. Read his friendly beginning. I think he could have been trying to buddy (Could just be friendly). Every vote he has made has either piggybacked on an argument another person has already made or someone others have already expressed suspiscion of. (Masked:Me/No-lynch:Execute/Me:Persus, Masked/Execute:Deus/Me again:Scripten, Cheetar) He also votes Execute for voting no lynch when he supported execute.
Masked:I was thinking town but that vote makes it seem like he's got something to prove. Scum lean?
Deus: I have no strong read but he's slightly leaning scum. He has not exactly built a case or pressed much except on Execute when he was absent. Could just be inexperience.
Comrade Shamrock: An innocent man, I do believe.
Doris:
Repeating I feel does emphasise a point. Propaganda runs on the same principle, teachers use it and look at advertising. Really? The answer to the second question should be obvious, considering my earlier goddamn blunder. Yes it is very important. Before you accuse anyone of anything regarding votes look at their history.
Masked:
Why the flamboyant vote? I feel like you're really trying to emphasise how much you support the lynch. You didn't joke last time, so why now?
Post by: Deus Asmoth on November 25, 2014, 04:19:32 pm
Post by: Dorsidwarf on November 25, 2014, 05:14:49 pm
So your vote 3 on someone is because he has been 'making a habit of flimsy cases'?
Know what's a bigger scum tell than using bad cases? Using someone else's case.
Scintilliant already said literally everything in your case. You've taken his argument, boiled it down to one line, and put that as a bandwagon vote? Scripten had a bland and mechanics based reason - preventing vote shenanigans - but it was at least something of his own, an independently justifiable reason.
You know who doesn't come up with their own scumhunting?
Scum.
Post by: Dorsidwarf on November 25, 2014, 05:15:59 pm
Post by: Deus Asmoth on November 25, 2014, 06:09:15 pm
Scintillant, one other thing: what's the difference between Shamrock's defense of misreading some of Scripten's posts and you justifying some of your actions by saying they're newb mistakes? Why is it scummy for Shamrock to call himself stupid but not so for you to call yourself a newb?
Post by: Scintillant on November 25, 2014, 07:10:01 pm
Post by: Cheeetar on November 25, 2014, 07:31:52 pm
Post by: masked_krusader on November 25, 2014, 07:58:55 pm
Masked:
Why the flamboyant vote? I feel like you're really trying to emphasise how much you support the lynch. You didn't joke last time, so why now?
kru(d)sader
So your vote 3 on someone is because he has been 'making a habit of flimsy cases'?
Know what's a bigger scum tell than using bad cases? Using someone else's case.
Scintilliant already said literally everything in your case. You've taken his argument, boiled it down to one line, and put that as a bandwagon vote? Scripten had a bland and mechanics based reason - preventing vote shenanigans - but it was at least something of his own, an independently justifiable reason.
You know who doesn't come up with their own scumhunting?
Scum.
Masked, your comment about flimsy cases makes me think that you're voting Shamrock as revenge for his earlier suspicions about you rather than anything concrete. Also, the fact that you FoS'd him and called him scum three times in the same post as you voted for him just looks like you're covering a lack of material with a lot of finger pointing.
He tried to push suspicion over a flipping RVS question, insisted my WIFOM dismissal was scummy, and then when it was clear his case was transparent, he moved onto to Scripten with an equally lame case. After his attack on me ended, I thought he was probably just jumping the gun early in the game, but then he used outright falsehoods against Scripten, and it just seems he's trying to twist what people are saying to make them seem like scum. His unvote looked like he was trying to withdraw when his case was blown again, just like before with me. I do admit that part of my reason is a gut suspicion, but it looks to me that he's active lurking.
Why would I revenge vote someone for suspecting me? Scum or town that's just a dumb move. It doesn't have anything to do with the fact that he was targeting me, it's the fact that he keeps pushing cases without anything on his target. He's not using real suspicions then aborting the case due to those suspicions being assuaged, he's trying to look like he's scumhunting without actually doing anything.
Oppose extend. I doubt it would accomplish anything, and Day 2 will probably be more useful for scumhunting, if past Mafia games are anything to go by.
Post by: TheDarkStar on November 25, 2014, 08:09:15 pm
Meanwhile, you wonder if Comrade is your comrade after all.
Day 1 will end at 2 AM UTC on Tuesday, November 20th (about 50 minutes from now). Weekends will not be counted in the time for a day or a night.
Votes:
Scripten:
Deus Asmoth:
masked_krusader: Dorsidwarf,
Comrade Shamrock:
RangerCado:
Scintillant: RangerCado
Superblackcat:
No Lynch:
Not voting:
Extend: 0/3
Post by: Scintillant on November 25, 2014, 08:38:43 pm
Scintillant, the person you claimed to believe is scum is about to get lynched. Why are you voting for an extend?I voted to extend because I won't have access to a computer until the day ends. However, since we're lynching Comrade anyways, unextend.
Post by: TheDarkStar on November 25, 2014, 08:42:46 pm
Scintillant, the person you claimed to believe is scum is about to get lynched. Why are you voting for an extend?I voted to extend because I won't have access to a computer until the day ends. However, since we're lynching Comrade anyways, unextend.
Unextend noted.
Extensions: 0/3
Shortens: 1/5
The day will end in 15-20 minutes.
Post by: 4maskwolf on November 25, 2014, 08:46:15 pm
Post by: TheDarkStar on November 25, 2014, 08:51:01 pm
Am I replacing in for SBC?
Yes.
The man who likes cats falls to the ground, twitching uncontrollably. It seems that the aliens tried to poison him! However, he gets up again and keeps talking. You do notice that he seems to like wolves more than cats now...
4maskwolf has replaced Superblackcat!
The day will be over in 10 minutes
Post by: 4maskwolf on November 25, 2014, 08:52:32 pm
The day will be over in 10 minutesLove you too bud.
Post by: TheDarkStar on November 25, 2014, 08:55:29 pm
Look at it this way: At least people stopped piling onto SBC before you replaced.The day will be over in 10 minutesLove you too bud.
Post by: 4maskwolf on November 25, 2014, 08:57:35 pm
*taps the my messages tab*Look at it this way: At least people stopped piling onto SBC before you replaced.The day will be over in 10 minutesLove you too bud.
Post by: TheDarkStar on November 25, 2014, 09:15:09 pm
*taps the my messages tab*Look at it this way: At least people stopped piling onto SBC before you replaced.The day will be over in 10 minutesLove you too bud.
...?
The day is now over.
The general agreement is that Comrade is not a comrade. After reporting this to Supervisor TheDarkStar, TheDarkstar calls to some guards and has Comrade dragged away.
Fifteen minutes later, Comrade's corpse is brought back, definitely a human. On his body, you find an ID that shows that he is part of the security department.
Comrade Shamrock has been lynched! He was the Jailkeeper!
You retire to your rooms, still under heavy guard. Nothing will go wrong tonight, right...?
Votes:
Scripten:
Deus Asmoth:
Dorsidwarf:
masked_krusader: Dorsidwarf,
Comrade Shamrock:Cheeetar, Scintillant, masked_krusader, Scripten
RangerCado:
Scintillant: RangerCado
Cheeetar:
No Lynch:
Not voting:
Night 1 has begun! It will end in 48 hours, 2 AM Thursday, November 27. If I do not receive the night action(s) by this time, 24 hours will be added to account for Thanksgiving celebrations/vacations.
Post by: TheDarkStar on November 27, 2014, 02:24:30 pm
Day 1 begins in less than 1.5 hours
Post by: TheDarkStar on November 27, 2014, 09:04:00 pm
4maskwolf has died! He was a Vanilla Townie!
Votes:
Scripten:
Deus Asmoth:
Dorsidwarf:
masked_krusader:
Scintillant:
Cheeetar:
No Lynch:
Not voting: Everyone.
Day 2 has begun and will end on Tuesday, 2AM UTC (a few days from now).
Post by: Cheeetar on November 27, 2014, 09:28:40 pm
Oh dear. Bad luck, 4maskwolf. I'm going to be looking sharply at those who voted for SBC (now 4maskwolf (now dead)) for poor reasons. Masked Krusader sticks out as having been particularly brief in his reasons for voting for both SBC and Comrade Shamrock. Dorsidwarf mentioned that his case seemed lifted from Scripten & Scintillant for his two votes, and I'm inclined to agree.
Spoiler: Comrade Shamrock's pre-death reads (click to show/hide)
^This will be very useful to us, and I'm grateful to Comrade Shamrock for providing it for us. Of note is his strong suspicion of Scintillant for piggybacking (similar to the complaint I have against Masked Krusader), and mild suspicions of Krusader and Asmoth.
Post by: Cheeetar on November 27, 2014, 09:31:30 pm
Post by: notquitethere on November 27, 2014, 09:44:11 pm
(http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/avatar/images/c/c9/Detective_Sokka.png/revision/20140215111854)
Town got mislynched D1. That isn't unusual. Let's look back on the last five BMs:
BM L: TheDarkStar and Eyjafjallajökull were scum, TDS was on the D1 mislynch, Eyjafjallajökull was not voting.
BM XLIX: Comrade Shamrock and Worldmaster27 were scum, Comrade Shamrock was on the D1 mislynch, Worldmaster was not voting.
BM XLVIII: Illgeo and yobbo were scum. Yobbo was on the D1 mislynch. Illgeo was voting someone else.
BM XLVII: Tiruin and LARD were scum. LARD was on the D1 mislynch, Tiruin was not voting.
BM XLVI: MastahCheese and MyOwnWorstEnemy were scum. No one was lynched on D1(!), but MastahCheese and MOWE were on different targets. D2 mislynch, Mastahcheese voted for someone who didn't end up getting lynched (but might have done if there weren't a last minute swing to Pufferfish) and MOWE didn't vote at all.
Do you see the patterns here? That's right: for whatever reason, scum almost never persue the same target as one another; there's almost always a scum player on the D1 mislynch; often a scum player won't vote at all.
What does that mean for us? Well, it's likely that one of Cheeetar, Scintillant, masked_krusader or Scripten are scum; and its most likely that their buddy is Deus Asmoth, with Dorsidwarf a strong second contender. (4maskwolf
Deus Asmoth, looking back it seems you were fairly active; why weren't you voting for someone at the end of Day 1?
Who had the weakest case against Comrade Shamrock?
Was it Cheetah?
I do admit I did push you on an RVS but so did Scintillant. The exact same question in fact. I was not actually even trying to push a case on you at all. I know full well I don't have anything even remotely substantial. I'm just got a bad feel from your responses. It isn't very easy to put into words either. I was asked by Scintillant on who I thought was the scummiest.
This rubs me the complete wrong way. "I did a wrong thing, but so did this other person!" And then you say you weren't trying to push a case on somebody, as if this absolves your mistake. If you have a bad feeling from the way somebody is posting, you ought to be pushing and questioning them.
It seems as if you're playing in a very meek fashion, Comrade- not the way I'd advise mafia to be played, and one which seems to indicate to me a desire to not be noticed too much. It's a scummy way of playing, and I'm going to keep my vote on you.
Cheetah offers a reason to lynch Shamrock. It's not a very good reason (playing meekly is not a very strong scum sign in a game full of new players), but it is definitely a reason.
Was it Scintillant?
I'm assuming that you mean what I'd do (feel free to correct me if you meant something else). Now that I've thought a bit more on the matter and am not deathly tired, I think whichever way the SBC lynch goes, my suspicion would fall on Comrade. He was the last one on the SBC wagon, and he got on it with the same argument as Krusader used before him herenamely that SBC was lurking. Also, hereSpoiler (click to show/hide)he seems to be defending SBC by saying that it's hard to call a case on him for town or mafia due to his inactivity. He then proceeds to push suspicion onto you, which you then debunk. Afterwards, he responds with this.Spoiler (click to show/hide)This seems very excusey and scummy to me. He's basically insulting himself to show that he's bad and thus should be allowed to get away with his poor argument. In addition, he fails to address any of the counterpoints he presents. All of this put together makes Comrade my prime scum suspect, as a scum partner with SBC, both right now and after an SBC lynch.Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Scintillant offers a number of reasons to vote Shamrock and backs them up in reference to actual posts. This case is formed in reaction to Scripten's questioning, and the vote on Shamrock is buried in the response rather than directed at their target. A great way to to get inexperienced players mislynched is to not directly question them when you're trying to lynch them.
Was it masked_krusader?
Of the two instances you quoted, the first weren't even answers, they were attacks based on pure speculation. WIFOM. The second wasn't an answer, either, it was me going off on a WIFOM-y tangent. I never dismissed answers, Comrade, I defended myself from a baseless accusation, and started rambling. I don't think either one is very scummy. You seem to be pushing a weak case, though.
And with this in mind, screw it, unvote. SBC seems likely to be replaced, so my vote staying on him would accomplish nothing.Their initial case on Shamrock is formed from a reasonable counter-response. Their second vote though feels a bit bandwagony. It is good to vote at the end of Day 1, it is better to reaffirm your case.
Comrade is a scummy scum scummer.
Was it Scripten?
I don't have much time today so I'm going to put my vote where it makes the most sense. (Also to avoid a end-of-day tie out of the blue.)'Avoiding a tie' when someone has two votes more than the next person is a complete non-reason to vote. They may have been pressed for time, but Scripten doesn't offer any reason they'd think Shamrock was scum.
Unvote SBC
Vote Comrade Shamrock
Now time to double down on the above suspicions. The only good thing about interminable D1s is that they offer us false-lynches. These are almost as informative as the genuine thing. If we look at who would have been lynched if the day wasn't extended:
Scripten:
Deus Asmoth:
Execute/Dumbo.exe: Scintillant
masked_krusader:
Comrade Shamrock: Persus13
RangerCado:
Scintillant: RangerCado
Superblackcat: Scripten, masked_krusader, Deus Asmoth, Comrade Shamrock
Persus13:
Not voting: Execute/Dumbo.exe, Superblackcat
Now SBC/Wolf flipped town, we know now that this would have been a mislynch. Following the trends, it's most likely that there was one scum on SBC's lynch and one scum off of it (quite possibly not voting).
Who had the weakest case on SBC?
Was it Scripten?
Scint: What thought process would you have if you were the JKer?
Hm.
Unvote Execute/Dumbo.exe
Vote Superblackcat
What sort of alignment-indicative information were you hoping to glean from an answer to that question?
Everyone: Superblackcat is probably scum. Note the difference between his play and Persus13's. Can everyone give me as in-depth a list as they can hack as to what SBC has contributed to the game?
Scum typically don't like to change their cases. Scripten keeps a page 3 vote on SBC and defends it later based on SBC's inactivity. Inactivity is terrible for games, but going after the most inactive player is the easiest scum tactic there is. Low-hanging fruit and all that.
Was it masked_krusader?
Well, in that case, unvote.
I shall place my vote on SBC, if he doesn't post anytime soon.
This is just a weak pressure/placeholder vote made when someone else pressed krusader. I'm not impressed.
Was it Deus Asmoth?
Extend, SBC. Execute is lurking too and seems more suspicious to me, but a scummy IC is more dangerous and Execute has at least made one vote.
Deus Asmoth is the third player on the 'SBC is lurking' wagon. Getting rid of lurkers D1 is an OK policy; but a much better policy is letting them be replaced out with active players. Was there really no better suspect at the time?
Initial Conclusions: Deus Asmoth wagonned on the SBC mislynch and didn't vote at all when Shamrock was mislynched. Masked Krusader was on both mislynches with somewhat suspect cases; Scripten was on both mislynches with even more suspect cases. Cheetah and Scintillant didn't have amazing cases against Shamrock but they had cases. Dorsidwarf stayed off both mislynches. I'd be interested to see who they think is scum now we've had some flips.
Also: Hi NQT!Hey!
Post by: 4maskwolf on November 27, 2014, 10:30:33 pm
Bah.
Something told me I would die last night.
Post by: Scripten on November 28, 2014, 02:03:24 am
Do you see the patterns here? That's right: for whatever reason, scum almost never persue the same target as one another; there's almost always a scum player on the D1 mislynch; often a scum player won't vote at all.
What does that mean for us? Well, it's likely that one of Cheeetar, Scintillant, masked_krusader or Scripten are scum; and its most likely that their buddy is Deus Asmoth, with Dorsidwarf a strong second contender. (4maskwolfonly just got in hereis dead)
While I agree with your analysis here, keep in mind that the non-voters in two of those games were not voting precisely because they were active lurking.
Scintillant offers a number of reasons to vote Shamrock and backs them up in reference to actual posts. This case is formed in reaction to Scripten's questioning, and the vote on Shamrock is buried in the response rather than directed at their target. A great way to to get inexperienced players mislynched is to not directly question them when you're trying to lynch them.
You seem to be discounting the fact that Scintillant is also a new player. This push seems to be passive aggressive and I'm not sure how fond I am of it.
Was it Scripten?I don't have much time today so I'm going to put my vote where it makes the most sense. (Also to avoid a end-of-day tie out of the blue.)'Avoiding a tie' when someone has two votes more than the next person is a complete non-reason to vote. They may have been pressed for time, but Scripten doesn't offer any reason they'd think Shamrock was scum.
Unvote SBC
Vote Comrade Shamrock
You are forgetting that there are two scum players and this is a newbie game. This close to the end of the day, they could tie up the vote before deadline without much recourse from town if the distance between wagons is two or less. With this being a newbie game, they could easily get away with this and not even end up questioned about it. Shamrock had spent most of the day pushing misreps against various players, which comes across as scummy. Unfortunately, I've only ever seen his scum game, which seemed similar, so I considered him a safe D1 lynch. Sadly, he did not claim his PR before being lynched, though SBC's playstyle would have gotten him lynched, most likely.
Scint: What thought process would you have if you were the JKer?
Hm.
Unvote Execute/Dumbo.exe
Vote Superblackcat
What sort of alignment-indicative information were you hoping to glean from an answer to that question?Everyone: Superblackcat is probably scum. Note the difference between his play and Persus13's. Can everyone give me as in-depth a list as they can hack as to what SBC has contributed to the game?
Scum typically don't like to change their cases. Scripten keeps a page 3 vote on SBC and defends it later based on SBC's inactivity. Inactivity is terrible for games, but going after the most inactive player is the easiest scum tactic there is. Low-hanging fruit and all that.
You seem to be missing that SBC had been all but rolefishing here. Did you read the response I got from my question that you quoted?
Inactivity does kill games. Scum don't just lurk, though. They lurk while pretending to contribute to the game state. Hence the case I made. Obviously I was wrong, but if you're going to try to poke holes in my case, then please at least aim for the case I made and not a vastly simplified strawman of it.
Post by: Dorsidwarf on November 28, 2014, 02:14:55 am
You say right at the start of your post that "Dorsidwarf a strong second contender [for scum]". You then proceed to post an extremely detailed analysis of pretty much every lynch vote in the game, and fail to follow this up. Can you clarify what exactly makes me one of your top scum picks? For reference, executedumbo.exe was replacing out when SBC/wolf was up for the vote.
Masked Krusader
May I ask a question?
He tried to push suspicion over a flipping RVS question, insisted my WIFOM dismissal was scummy, and then when it was clear his case was transparent, he moved onto to Scripten with an equally lame case. After his attack on me ended, I thought he was probably just jumping the gun early in the game, but then he used outright falsehoods against Scripten, and it just seems he's trying to twist what people are saying to make them seem like scum. His unvote looked like he was trying to withdraw when his case was blown again, just like before with me. I do admit that part of my reason is a gut suspicion, but it looks to me that he's active lurking.
Why would I revenge vote someone for suspecting me? Scum or town that's just a dumb move. It doesn't have anything to do with the fact that he was targeting me, it's the fact that he keeps pushing cases without anything on his target. He's not using real suspicions then aborting the case due to those suspicions being assuaged, he's trying to look like he's scumhunting without actually doing anything.
What exactly do you think the pointof the RVS, if you accused someone of scummnitude for forming opinions based on your RVS questions? That, uh, really is the whole point of them, I believe.
If a significant enough part of your vote reason is "gut suspicion" that it bear mentioning, does that not contradict your volumes of arguments against him, hmmm? When most players I've seen vote based on "gut feeling", they make it pretty clear they're doing so, and rarely post large paragraph explanations of themselves. Well, town players, that is.
I don't think you know what "active lurking" is either. He posted a lot, with arguments, defences and accusations in pretty much every one, as far as I saw. How does that possibly tie in with either definition of "active lurking"?
You brush off the "you're OMGUS-ing" accusation with a little dab of WIFOM. Saying 'I couldn't have possibly been doing that, that would be such a bad strategic choice I wouldn't have made' is shrugging off your scumtell.
Finally, last question: In light of his flip as the Jailkeeper, how do you feel about your previous accusations that he was "active lurking" and trying to look like he's scumhunting without actually doing anything.
Post by: Cheeetar on November 28, 2014, 03:14:16 am
Hey NQT. Good to have a quick replacement. Are you a mini-IC? If not, why is such an experienced player in the beginners' game?
I think we should probably be pretty glad that we even have so many people willing to replace in(and I don't just say this because I'm also a replacement myself.)
Post by: notquitethere on November 28, 2014, 03:26:06 am
While I agree with your analysis here, keep in mind that the non-voters in two of those games were not voting precisely because they were active lurking.I'm not sure why that would be a caveat to my point. Without mitigating circumstances, I find nonvoting to be one of the stronger scum tells (though bearing in mind it's rare for both scum to be nonvoting, usually it's just one at a time).
It's ironic that you think this push is passive aggressive when I'm pointing out a passive aggressive way that people get mislynched. It's something a player of any experience level might do regardless of alignment and I wouldn't use this point as a basis for deeming someone scummy. It's just a good technique if used by scum and so I tend to see it as bad form for town players.Scintillant offers a number of reasons to vote Shamrock and backs them up in reference to actual posts. This case is formed in reaction to Scripten's questioning, and the vote on Shamrock is buried in the response rather than directed at their target. A great way to to get inexperienced players mislynched is to not directly question them when you're trying to lynch them.You seem to be discounting the fact that Scintillant is also a new player. This push seems to be passive aggressive and I'm not sure how fond I am of it.
You are forgetting that there are two scum players and this is a newbie game. This close to the end of the day, they could tie up the vote before deadline without much recourse from town if the distance between wagons is two or less. With this being a newbie game, they could easily get away with this and not even end up questioned about it. Shamrock had spent most of the day pushing misreps against various players, which comes across as scummy. Unfortunately, I've only ever seen his scum game, which seemed similar, so I considered him a safe D1 lynch. Sadly, he did not claim his PR before being lynched, though SBC's playstyle would have gotten him lynched, most likely.I think scum players, even newbie scum players, tend to be a lot more risk averse than all that. I concede though that it is a possible concern, if not one I'd think a reasonable pressing. I agree with you about the PR thing though: one of the first thing ICs should be telling new players is that if they've got a power role they should claim if they're just about to be mislynched and they're not persuasive enough to press for an extension. Do you foresee lynching a player on stronger grounds today?
You seem to be missing that SBC had been all but rolefishing here. Did you read the response I got from my question that you quoted?SBC's response seems to me to smack of honesty. It was a lousy RVS question to get people chatting. RVS questions shouldn't just be that, but in practice that's what most of them are. Asking how someone would act as such and such a role isn't really fishing, it's just lazy by-the-numbers random questioning. I can see why you'd object to people answering that one, it gives too much power to the scum if they take into account those kind of questions. But town ask these kind of questions all the time; it can be a sign that the questioner has that role on their mind. It's no mystery why SBC-the-jailkeeper asked a question about jailkeeping.
Inactivity does kill games. Scum don't just lurk, though. They lurk while pretending to contribute to the game state. Hence the case I made. Obviously I was wrong, but if you're going to try to poke holes in my case, then please at least aim for the case I made and not a vastly simplified strawman of it.
I wasn't aiming for a complete deconstruction of everyone's cases, but a quick overview. To see what warranted further investigation. I'm glad you're defending yourself though. That's promising. And given your disavowal of active-lurkers, when can we expect some active content from you today? Mostly just answering questions and voting lurkers is pretty much page one of the Being Scummy Bible.
Dorsidwarf
Hey NQT. Good to have a quick replacement. Are you a mini-IC? If not, why is such an experienced player in the beginners' game?I've got to apologise here. I am a bit too experienced to play in any kind of beginners game. But games are damned awful if activity is low due to replacements required. A player that's too good is better than none at all. In role-heavy games, it can be safe to just modkill the absent player, but not in such a finely balanced set up as a BM. I've got a strong amicable interest in making mafia enjoyable for newcomers and raising the standard of people's game, but I'll leave the informative asides to the official ICs.
You say right at the start of your post that "Dorsidwarf a strong second contender [for scum]". You then proceed to post an extremely detailed analysis of pretty much every lynch vote in the game, and fail to follow this up. Can you clarify what exactly makes me one of your top scum picks? For reference, executedumbo.exe was replacing out when SBC/wolf was up for the vote.A reasonable question. I wrote that line prior to doing the rest of the analysis and after looking at the lynch targets they were more promising to follow up. I meant that if there was a scum player on the Shamrock mislynch (likely) and that that scum player's buddy was not on that lynch (also quite likely), then that would leave you and Deus Asmoth as good scum candidates BUT very unlikely to be scum buddies. You've pointed out that Dumbo was in replacement during the SBC lynch, and Deus would have been on the SBC mislynch AND they didn't vote at the end of day 1: both these things made them a better scum candidate to pursue.
Do you think Masked Krusader's play is more indicative of scummy intent or being a very inexperienced player?
Cheeeetah
Thanks chief. How much stock do you put in town player's reads? I haven't thought in great depth on the matter, but my intuition here is that they can be a bit of a red herring, as individual town players tend to lack any special knowledge or insights (especially those town players that allow themselves to get mislynched on day 1).Hey NQT. Good to have a quick replacement. Are you a mini-IC? If not, why is such an experienced player in the beginners' game?
I think we should probably be pretty glad that we even have so many people willing to replace in(and I don't just say this because I'm also a replacement myself.)
Post by: Dorsidwarf on November 28, 2014, 03:36:27 am
As a newbie player myself, I'm not completely sure, but my personal opinion is that he's a
scum, based on the volume of things such as WIFOM, OMGUS, bandwagoning, and misusing terms like 'active lurking'. While you expect people to maybe slip up on one or two things, because BM, it just seems like too much of a coincidence.
Also, Shamrock was the jailkeeper, not 4mask/SBC
Post by: notquitethere on November 28, 2014, 03:41:58 am
As a newbie player myself, I'm not completely sure, but my personal opinion is that he's aObviously we shouldn't excuse things indefinitely but I've seen a lot of newbie town players mislynched because they ticked the conventional scumtell boxes. That's why I try to dig a bit deeper.
scum, based on the volume of things such as WIFOM, OMGUS, bandwagoning, and misusing terms like 'active lurking'. While you expect people to maybe slip up on one or two things, because BM, it just seems like too much of a coincidence.
Also, Shamrock was the jailkeeper, not 4mask/SBCAh yeah, my mistake.
Post by: Cheeetar on November 28, 2014, 03:46:43 am
CheeeetahThanks chief. How much stock do you put in town player's reads? I haven't thought in great depth on the matter, but my intuition here is that they can be a bit of a red herring, as individual town players tend to lack any special knowledge or insights (especially those town players that allow themselves to get mislynched on day 1).Hey NQT. Good to have a quick replacement. Are you a mini-IC? If not, why is such an experienced player in the beginners' game?
I think we should probably be pretty glad that we even have so many people willing to replace in(and I don't just say this because I'm also a replacement myself.)
It's not as valuable to me as my own reads, but for all players collectively it's of more value than me posting my own reads- it has great value as a source that can't be second guessed in terms of what a town player found suspicious and not suspicious.
Post by: Deus Asmoth on November 28, 2014, 04:30:18 am
Scintillant,You voted with Shamrock against Masked, then against Shamrock, then decided he was town, then voted for him again, and you were always second or third to the party. I'm getting the feeling that you were looking for a lynch that you couldn't be blamed for but no one could say you band waggoned onto.
Crusader, you have a few questions from day 1 that need answers.
Post by: Deus Asmoth on November 28, 2014, 04:37:49 am
Post by: notquitethere on November 28, 2014, 04:40:16 am
NQT: I didn't put a vote down by the end of day one because I was fairly sure Shamrock wasn't scum and didn't want to vote for him, but I wasn't certain enough about Crusader to vote for him. Perhaps I should have voted for him anyway, but I wasn't sure enough.Uh huh, and you didn't try to convince others to avoid what you considered a mislynch?
Cheetah
It's not as valuable to me as my own reads, but for all players collectively it's of more value than me posting my own reads- it has great value as a source that can't be second guessed in terms of what a town player found suspicious and not suspicious.That's reasonable enough. Will you press everyone to give reads before the end of Day 2 then?
Post by: Cheeetar on November 28, 2014, 04:47:59 am
CheetahIt's not as valuable to me as my own reads, but for all players collectively it's of more value than me posting my own reads- it has great value as a source that can't be second guessed in terms of what a town player found suspicious and not suspicious.That's reasonable enough. Will you press everyone to give reads before the end of Day 2 then?
Sure. I regret not asking Day 1- as I'm sure you've noted, my general contribution wasn't too good during it. I acknowledge that I should have gotten reads out of players (although I probably wouldn't've been able to get anything out of 4maskwolf in the approximately 50 minutes he had as a player.)
Post by: Deus Asmoth on November 28, 2014, 08:42:35 am
As for not voting, if I had put a vote on Masked or Scintillant at a point when it wouldn't have made any difference, how would that have made me seem any less scummy to you?
Post by: Scripten on November 28, 2014, 10:49:53 am
That said, Shamrock had been pushing some fairly weak cases beforehand and I wasn't confident enough to put my neck on the chopping block if he did turn out to be scum.
Vote Deus Asmoth
I will return to older posts to answer them in a bit, but this is scum 101. Newbie town players may be cautious, but not as cautious as newbie scum players.
Post by: Dorsidwarf on November 28, 2014, 11:32:14 am
Are you planning to contribute more, since you surely can't still be busy with whatever occupied you while you were voting at D1 end, hmm?
Post by: Scripten on November 28, 2014, 11:44:49 am
I'm noticing a lotta this "quick vote no time will do content l8r", Scripten.
Are you planning to contribute more, since you surely can't still be busy with whatever occupied you while you were voting at D1 end, hmm?
Hah, no. I'm currently typing up a long post and I wanted to get conversation rolling ASAP. Also, that was literally five(!) RL hours you're talking about. I was out on a date with my girlfriend and didn't want scum to tie up the vote at the last minute, as I explained.
Do you think that a counter-wagon was likely to arise in that time?
Post by: Deus Asmoth on November 28, 2014, 12:01:15 pm
By the way, your vote first, give reasons later strategy are kind of making it look like you're hoping other people will jump on the bandwagon before you have to come back with your answers, so you'll be safer from questioning.
Post by: Scripten on November 28, 2014, 12:14:03 pm
Spoiler: "OOC" (click to show/hide)
NQT
ScriptenWhile I agree with your analysis here, keep in mind that the non-voters in two of those games were not voting precisely because they were active lurking.I'm not sure why that would be a caveat to my point. Without mitigating circumstances, I find nonvoting to be one of the stronger scum tells (though bearing in mind it's rare for both scum to be nonvoting, usually it's just one at a time).
Not so much a caveat as an addendum. You find the non-voting more suspicious because your play is more based around vote analysis while I find active lurking more suspicious because I focus more on player motivation and psychology. It's two sides to the same coin.
You seem to be discounting the fact that Scintillant is also a new player. This push seems to be passive aggressive and I'm not sure how fond I am of it.It's ironic that you think this push is passive aggressive when I'm pointing out a passive aggressive way that people get mislynched. It's something a player of any experience level might do regardless of alignment and I wouldn't use this point as a basis for deeming someone scummy. It's just a good technique if used by scum and so I tend to see it as bad form for town players.
It is passive aggressive. I can't tell if you're trying to garner more information from Scintillant by suggesting lightly that he was manipulating the vote or if you are trying to link his push back to me by suggesting that it was my questioning that led to him making that push. I don't necessarily think you are scummy for it, I just don't like that push and I'd have liked to see it be a little more direct.
Do you foresee lynching a player on stronger grounds today?
Of course. Every day brings with it more information and thus stronger grounds for lynches.
SBC's response seems to me to smack of honesty.
Hindsight is 20/20. Self deprecation is a null tell. I already had a scumread and an answer that doesn't affect the game state coupled with a lack of any change in activity just cements it.
I can see why you'd object to people answering that one, it gives too much power to the scum if they take into account those kind of questions.
Exactly, but where do you think the suspicion for pro-scum questions being fielded should go? I'm certainly not going to scumread a newbie for answering an IC's rolefishing question.
I wasn't aiming for a complete deconstruction of everyone's cases, but a quick overview. To see what warranted further investigation. I'm glad you're defending yourself though. That's promising. And given your disavowal of active-lurkers, when can we expect some active content from you today? Mostly just answering questions and voting lurkers is pretty much page one of the Being Scummy Bible.
When will I start being active? Right now and for the rest of the day. This is the exact sort of falsified posturing that irritated me about Comrade Shamrock's play. Please don't insinuate that I've not been active nor that my play has been purely reactive. It has not been, and representing it that way is disingenuous. It's how scum go back in later days to quote singular posts and push erroneous cases on players to garner mislynches, and is especially fruitful when coming from town.
Deus Asmoth
NQT I told Scintillant I didn't see any difference between his earlier defences and Shamrock saying he had made a mistake in reading Scripten's posts, and I put pressure on Crusader when his only justification for thinking Shamrock was scum was that he thought Shamrock was scum. That said, Shamrock had been pushing some fairly weak cases beforehand and I wasn't confident enough to put my neck on the chopping block if he did turn out to be scum.
To expand more on the reason for my vote, this is a blatant attempt to harvest towncred out of a townie flip. I note also that you removed your vote from another townie when his wagon started gaining momentum. Deus Asmoth, you're wriggling like caught scum.
Scripten, you realise that there's a difference between being cautious and not being suicidal, right? If I'd been defending Shamrock tooth and nail and he'd flipped scum, that'd be a guaranteed day two lynch for me barring someone waving a flag over their head and shouting that they were scum and you should lynch them. Why would I risk that for someone I've already said I wasn't 100% sure of?
Nope. If you have a townread getting lynched, then you should be pushing for a different wagon. Maybe you're just cautious for being new, but I'm currently thinking that you're cautious because of your alignment and not your experience.
By the way, your vote first, give reasons later strategy are kind of making it look like you're hoping other people will jump on the bandwagon before you have to come back with your answers, so you'll be safer from questioning.
Yes, because I've been dodging questions all game. ::)
Post by: masked_krusader on November 28, 2014, 12:50:12 pm
Post by: Comrade Shamrock on November 28, 2014, 01:06:04 pm
Have fun. :D
Post by: Deus Asmoth on November 28, 2014, 01:29:51 pm
Deus AsmothScripten, I think we can all agree that what you just posted is a big pile of crap. I said several times that I thought Shamrock was town both times people were voting for him. I also find it interesting that you're more interested in going after me than in one of the other people who got Shamrock lynched, though perhaps you're just hoping that people will forget that you're the one who started trying to get him lynched in the first place. As for removing my vote from SBC, it sure is a shame that I can't point out that you did exactly the same thing and also started the vote wagon on him in the first place... Except that's exactly what you did. Is this a double standard on your part or are you just scum hoping for another easy lynch? Who knows.NQT I told Scintillant I didn't see any difference between his earlier defences and Shamrock saying he had made a mistake in reading Scripten's posts, and I put pressure on Crusader when his only justification for thinking Shamrock was scum was that he thought Shamrock was scum. That said, Shamrock had been pushing some fairly weak cases beforehand and I wasn't confident enough to put my neck on the chopping block if he did turn out to be scum.
To expand more on the reason for my vote, this is a blatant attempt to harvest towncred out of a townie flip. I note also that you removed your vote from another townie when his wagon started gaining momentum. Deus Asmoth, you're wriggling like caught scum.
Quote
You're certainly dodging that statement, because that reply has nothing to do with what I said. I didn't say you were dodging questions, I said that you're hoping to avoid them altogether by not providing reasons for your votes until someone else has already started defending your position for you. You did it with Cat with your loaded question, you did it with Shamrock and you'd probably have taken your sweet time with your 'reasons' for voting for me if Dorsi hadn't called you on it.Scripten, you realise that there's a difference between being cautious and not being suicidal, right? If I'd been defending Shamrock tooth and nail and he'd flipped scum, that'd be a guaranteed day two lynch for me barring someone waving a flag over their head and shouting that they were scum and you should lynch them. Why would I risk that for someone I've already said I wasn't 100% sure of?
Nope. If you have a townread getting lynched, then you should be pushing for a different wagon. Maybe you're just cautious for being new, but I'm currently thinking that you're cautious because of your alignment and not your experience.By the way, your vote first, give reasons later strategy are kind of making it look like you're hoping other people will jump on the bandwagon before you have to come back with your answers, so you'll be safer from questioning.
Yes, because I've been dodging questions all game. ::)
Post by: Scripten on November 28, 2014, 02:04:14 pm
Scripten, I think we can all agree that what you just posted is a big pile of crap.
"We" as in the scumteam? I'm sure you both do. ;)
I said several times that I thought Shamrock was town both times people were voting for him. I also find it interesting that you're more interested in going after me than in one of the other people who got Shamrock lynched, though perhaps you're just hoping that people will forget that you're the one who started trying to get him lynched in the first place.
If you've noticed, I've been scumreading you for most of the game. My read of SBC was off, obviously, but my read on you is not predicated upon him being scum.
Also, kindly prove that I'm the one who started the wagon. If you mean this (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=145415.msg5817093#msg5817093), then show me how a blatant misrep is a pro-town action. Actually, maybe you should do that anyway, since you're currently twisting my play to be something it is not to fit your agenda.
As for removing my vote from SBC, it sure is a shame that I can't point out that you did exactly the same thing and also started the vote wagon on him in the first place... Except that's exactly what you did.
Except my vote was moved to another player so as to avoid a no-lynch. Yours moved because the wagon had gained traction and may have implicated you as being part of a mislynch. I started the wagon because I was scumhunting, which is apparently the biggest scumtell you can dig up.
Hint hint: Scumhunting is not a scumtell. Scum don't scumhunt because they CAN'T. They already know the scumteam.
If you care to show how my play was not actual scumhunting, then kindly do so.
You're certainly dodging that statement, because that reply has nothing to do with what I said. I didn't say you were dodging questions, I said that you're hoping to avoid them altogether by not providing reasons for your votes until someone else has already started defending your position for you. You did it with Cat with your loaded question, you did it with Shamrock and you'd probably have taken your sweet time with your 'reasons' for voting for me if Dorsi hadn't called you on it.
...
Really? MY QUESTION ABOUT CAT'S PLAY WAS NOT LOADED THANK YOU BYE.
Alright, let's lay this out so that people stop spouting this nonsense. When I asked the question about Cat's play, my accusation was already made. I considered him to be scum because he had not contributed to the game state and had not been scumhunting. I told the rest of the town to look at his play so that they could corroborate my statements with real evidence. He ended up being town, but it's not my fault if a player decides to throw the game and just doesn't participate.
Comrade Shamrock pushed crummy cases and pursued stuff that made him appear to be reaching. If you thought he was town, you could have come up with a counterwagon on someone you thought was scum. However, you didn't. You just sat there and waited for a townie to get lynched while "defending" them with anemic little quips. That's massively scummy. Town want to lynch scum. Scum don't care who gets lynched as long as it's not them.
As far as putting off my questions/cases for others to make them, prove it. Just saying something is true does NOT make it true. Provide evidence to back your gak up or get out.
Post by: TheDarkStar on November 28, 2014, 02:38:56 pm
Ugh, request replacement. Sorry for the (5th?) replacement, but I'm gonna have to bow out.
You notice that yet another person loses their mind. A guard says "Again? That's the fifth one this week. TheDarkStar, call the Mind Replacement Agency and see if they can fix this."
"Yes, sir."
Replacement request noted. Votecount coming eventually.
Post by: 4maskwolf on November 28, 2014, 02:39:40 pm
Post by: TheDarkStar on November 28, 2014, 02:40:50 pm
Am willing to replace in (again) since I didn't actually do anything.
You have deadchat access, though. If no one else signs up to replace, I'll sign you up and change the deadchat link (nothing important has been said there anyway).
Post by: Deus Asmoth on November 28, 2014, 02:58:50 pm
That said, you have my apologies. You didn't start the Shamrock wagon, you simply jumped onto it when you saw that everyone else had left the SBC one and you needed an easy lynch. Oh, sorry. You moved it because you 'wanted to avoid a no lynch', right? Yeah, that's not scummy. Not at all. Funny how all your scum hunting has been against inactive people or ones who already have a vote on them.
Since you're such a big fan of proving things, perhaps you could point out where I said I defended Shamrock? Because I'm pretty sure I specifically said I didn't do that because I wasn't sure enough about him to. Strange that you'd try to misrepresent what someone said like that, right?
You want me to prove that you're trying to get other people to fight your battles for you? You're dropping votes and coming back to actually support them when you're good and ready. Can anyone tell me if scum would do this so as to avoid looking suspicious but still drawing fire on their targets? (That is what some people call a loaded question, designed to draw the answers towards a conclusion that supports your own. It is remarkably similar to the one you posed about SBC. How odd that is, considering we have your word that that wasn't a loaded question.)
As for your read, I've noticed that the justification you gave was 'skating under the radar' (huh, a vague answer that you could interpret in the way that best suits you later on. What an odd thing for a townie to do...) and not posting enough, neither of which have cropped up in your current arguments.
Post by: Cheeetar on November 28, 2014, 03:14:01 pm
Post by: Deus Asmoth on November 28, 2014, 03:49:50 pm
Post by: Cheeetar on November 28, 2014, 04:07:48 pm
Post by: TheDarkStar on November 28, 2014, 04:27:44 pm
If there is no replacement for masked_krusader by 2 AM UTC, he will be replaced by 4maskwolf.
Votes:
Scripten: Deus Asmoth
Deus Asmoth: NotQuiteThere, Scripten
Dorsidwarf:
masked_krusader: Cheeetar
NotQuiteThere:
Scintillant:
Cheeetar:
No Lynch:
Not voting: Dorsidwarf, masked_krusader (soon to be replaced), NotQuiteThere, Scintillant
Day 2 will end on Tuesday, 2AM UTC (a few days from now).
Post by: Deus Asmoth on November 28, 2014, 04:39:38 pm
Post by: Scripten on November 28, 2014, 04:41:24 pm
Wow, calm down Scripten. People might get the idea that I'm right about you being scum.
I have no worries about being mislynched. I just absolutely hate the massive amounts of misrepping going on in this game.
That said, you have my apologies. You didn't start the Shamrock wagon, you simply jumped onto it when you saw that everyone else had left the SBC one and you needed an easy lynch. Oh, sorry. You moved it because you 'wanted to avoid a no lynch', right? Yeah, that's not scummy. Not at all. Funny how all your scum hunting has been against inactive people or ones who already have a vote on them.
Uh... yeah, it's not scummy. A no-lynch ONLY helps scum, especially on Day 1 when information is super limited. Btw, when I started scumhunting SBC, I was voting him for rolefishing and led that wagon. Funny how literally every point you're bringing up is a blatant lie, isn't it? Also, joining on a wagon isn't scummy, especially when you are directly interacting with players. Not everyone can get the first vote on a wagon.
I love how you're scumreading me both for being first on a wagon and for not being first on a wagon. What, exactly, would town-me have done differently in these situations?
Since you're such a big fan of proving things, perhaps you could point out where I said I defended Shamrock? Because I'm pretty sure I specifically said I didn't do that because I wasn't sure enough about him to. Strange that you'd try to misrepresent what someone said like that, right?
I put "defending" in quotes to emphasize that your defense of your supposed townread was weak, not that you had said it. Parsing error on my end. Apologies.
Either you were scumreading Shamrock enough to want him lynched or you had another, stronger scumread. If it was the first case, you didn't vote him and that's anti-town. End of story. If it's the second case, you weren't pushing your stronger scumread, and thus let someone you apparently thought was town get lynched to save your own hide. That's anti-town.
So, either you're a poor town player or you're scum. Consider my scumread on you a compliment.
You want me to prove that you're trying to get other people to fight your battles for you? You're dropping votes and coming back to actually support them when you're good and ready.
Except... no, I'm not. This is completely false and all it takes is a short read-through of my posts to see how incredibly wrong it is. I have always followed through by pursuing my targets and keeping a broad net. You can stop insulting my play now. It's getting REALLY old.
Can anyone tell me if scum would do this so as to avoid looking suspicious but still drawing fire on their targets? (That is what some people call a loaded question, designed to draw the answers towards a conclusion that supports your own. It is remarkably similar to the one you posed about SBC. How odd that is, considering we have your word that that wasn't a loaded question.)
Actually, this is a legitimate question and one that I can answer. Scum -do- passively initiate arguments and attempt to draw up suspicions on townies without implicating themselves. Doesn't apply in this case because I've been pushing each of the wagons I've been a part of and engaging with other players all game.
My question was not loaded. I made an accusation and told others to independently corroborate the information. Your case is weak and you should actually try scumhunting instead of pulling gak from your rear for a terrible OMGUS vote.
As for your read, I've noticed that the justification you gave was 'skating under the radar' (huh, a vague answer that you could interpret in the way that best suits you later on. What an odd thing for a townie to do...) and not posting enough, neither of which have cropped up in your current arguments.
It's almost as if the game state has changed and we have more information to go on or something.
Post by: Scripten on November 28, 2014, 04:45:07 pm
Cheetar, you're already going into WIFOM territory by asking me to guess someone else's motives. You asked me why he did what he did, and I gave you my best guess. Masked had already unvoted Shamrock once before, and Scintillant seemed to be changing his mind every few minutes, so it does seem like them pulling out of the vote at the last minute would have seemed like a risk to me if I were scum.
You seem to be totally blind to the fact that the counter wagon (which I started, mind you) WAS ALSO ON TOWN. There was literally no risk for scum in that situation. The only risk, which I mitigated with my change in vote, was of a no-lynch if scum/newbtown or scum/scum changed their votes at the last minute. (The especially dangerous part of this is in the first case, the newbtown player is set up as a mislynch!)
Post by: Dorsidwarf on November 28, 2014, 04:47:58 pm
Spoiler: Semi OOC? (click to show/hide)
Scripten: Seems fairly competent, generally knows what he's doing. Oddly insistent about that one D1 question not being a leading question (IMO it was). Concentrated on DA. Votes policy and strategically, see: SBC lead, Comrade vote. Agressive. Seems to be getting emotional in his latest posts w/ Deus - personal involvement? - : Slight town, acting oddly though.
Deus Asmoth: Defensive, and jumpy, seems worried about Scripten's focus on them. Needs to remember to scum hunt as well as defend himself. Seems somewhat focused on protecting self. Slight scum read.
Dorsidwarf: Handsome as ever.
Masked_Krusader[REPLACING]: Odd. Accuses people who question him. Accuses someone for using the RVS as intended. Declares other people to be using WIFOM against him, writes long ranty paragraph which is pure WIFOM. Scummy. Would be voting except they are replacing, and therefore are about as likely to defend themself as a chocolate alarm clock is to ring.
NQT: replaced in for RangerCado, who did hardly anything. Posted a big nice list of analysis. Seems to be focused on voting history as his scumhunting MO, as per usual. Voting DA for being timid, self-preservation focused. Slight town lean, but mostly not enough material to form a proper read.
Scintillininant:Acting odd. Led himself round by the nose after other people D1, voted NL immediately after executedumbo(me). Seems to have samey reasons. Feels off. Slight scum lean.
Cheeeetar: Needs to post more content. Hard to read. Isn't posting much advice, for a registered IC. Has questions on masked, but masked is replacing out. Null read (content-to-post ratio too low).
Ppe: Warning - while you were typing 5 new replies have been posted. You may wish to review your post. Typical.
Post by: Dorsidwarf on November 28, 2014, 04:58:41 pm
Shamrock may have been an agressive scumhunter, but he was really, really bad at it. He kept forgetting past events, misinterpreting quotes, and making accusations that we're flat-out untrue.I'm going to drop some reads here, air out my opinions Always good to air opinions. Keeps them fresh.Spoiler: Semi OOC? (click to show/hide)
Scripten: Seems fairly competent, generally knows what he's doing. Oddly insistent about that one D1 question not being a leading question (IMO it was). Concentrated on DA. Votes policy and strategically, see: SBC lead, Comrade vote. Agressive. Seems to be getting emotional in his latest posts w/ Deus - personal involvement? - : Slight town, acting oddly though.
Deus Asmoth: Defensive, and jumpy, seems worried about Scripten's focus on them. Needs to remember to scum hunt as well as defend himself. Seemssomewhatvery focused on protecting self. People paying more attention, getting jumper and jumper, accusations are becoming farcical, as if desperate.Slightmoderate scum read. That, or town who never bothered to read up past BMs.
Dorsidwarf: Handsome as ever.
Masked_Krusader[REPLACING]: Odd. Accuses people who question him. Accuses someone for using the RVS as intended. Declares other people to be using WIFOM against him, writes long ranty paragraph which is pure WIFOM. Scummy. Would be voting except they are replacing, and therefore are about as likely to defend themself as a chocolate alarm clock is to ring.
NQT: replaced in for RangerCado, who did hardly anything. Posted a big nice list of analysis. Seems to be focused on voting history as his scumhunting MO, as per usual. Voting DA for being timid, self-preservation focused. Slight town lean, but mostly not enough material to form a proper read.
Scintillininant:Acting odd. Led himself round by the nose after other people D1, voted NL immediately after executedumbo(me). Seems to have samey reasons. Feels off. Slight scum lean.
Cheeeetar: Needs to post more content. Hard to read, haven't read much on him. Isn't posting much advice, for a registered IC. Has questions on masked, but masked is replacing out. Asked Deus to explain why someone did something, then FOSed them for WIFOM. ???? . Null read, slight scum lean. (very, very slight). (content-to-post ratio too low).
Ppe: Warning - while you were typing 5 new replies have been posted. You may wish to review your post. Typical.
Post by: TheDarkStar on November 28, 2014, 05:00:52 pm
It's cool to have one super-experienced non-IC player in the game, especially since NQT promotes nonstandard and interesting methods of playing the game, but adding 4mask into the slot? I know we need a replacement, but, well, he's already had a go at replacing in, and this "Beginner's" match is starting to look awfully pro.
Just my thoughts on the matter.
This is why I'm waiting a bit to see if anyone else signs up.
Post by: Dorsidwarf on November 28, 2014, 05:02:08 pm
Above post has been updated for replies over last hour or so.
Additionally,
Deus Asmoth
Why are you getting jumpy and panicky all of a sudden? It's almost like you're freaking out and going bezerk because the attention of the other players is on you, you scummy scum scum, huh? Answers. ASAP. What makes you so worried that you're being investigated? Why should you not be lynched? What are you contributing to scumhunting in general? Stat.
Post by: Cheeetar on November 28, 2014, 05:11:34 pm
Cheetar, you're already going into WIFOM territory by asking me to guess someone else's motives. You asked me why he did what he did, and I gave you my best guess. Masked had already unvoted Shamrock once before, and Scintillant seemed to be changing his mind every few minutes, so it does seem like them pulling out of the vote at the last minute would have seemed like a risk to me if I were scum.
Scum have a motive for doing scummy things- you claimed it was scummy, so you must have an idea of his motive for doing it. Your 'best guess' seemed irrelevant at best to me, so I'm asking for another reason why you think Scripten is scummy for doing what he did. I'm not asking you to second guess his motivation in doing something, only to state why you believe he's scum for doing something (as you have already stated that such a move is scummy.)
Post by: Deus Asmoth on November 28, 2014, 05:33:38 pm
Post by: Cheeetar on November 28, 2014, 05:51:29 pm
Post by: Scripten on November 28, 2014, 05:52:37 pm
Jumping onto a bandwagon against an active town player and then going on to attack someone who didn't think they were scum using them not voting as their justification certainly seems like a scummy move to me. Perhaps I'm wrong.
Quote from: Scripten
Either you were scumreading Shamrock enough to want him lynched or you had another, stronger scumread. If it was the first case, you didn't vote him and that's anti-town. End of story. If it's the second case, you weren't pushing your stronger scumread, and thus let someone you apparently thought was town get lynched to save your own hide. That's anti-town.
There's literally only two options for a town Deus Asmoth, and they are both anti-town and examples of poor play. And that's okay. It's a newbie game, so it's to be expected, if your reactions to being confronted about it were in any way town-indicative.
They were not.
Cheeetar: I think DA is trying to say that the case I'm pushing on him is what he explained. It's a little hard to parse, tbh.
Post by: Deus Asmoth on November 28, 2014, 06:04:10 pm
Post-post edit.Eh... I'm not really certain how to answer that first one, I'm pretty sure this is how I always post. Possibly I'm just used to going on hyper defensive over nothing from other forums. I'll probably have to work on that. I'm not particularly worried about being investigated, but Scripten's case on me seemed questionable at best, or else based off a mistake no worse than what some of the other new players have done already. In any case, his claims on me seemed wrong from my point of view, so I wanted to try applying some pressure back. Apparently, I'm bad at that.
Above post has been updated for replies over last hour or so.
Additionally,
Deus Asmoth
Why are you getting jumpy and panicky all of a sudden? It's almost like you're freaking out and going bezerk because the attention of the other players is on you, you scummy scum scum, huh? Answers. ASAP. What makes you so worried that you're being investigated? Why should you not be lynched? What are you contributing to scumhunting in general? Stat.
Most of my scumhunting seems to be aimed at Scintillant, who doesn't seem to be in the mood to answer my questions at the moment.
Post by: Scintillant on November 28, 2014, 06:12:55 pm
Hey Deus, why are you so unsure of anything in this post? It's positively littered with words like "probably" and "seems". What's up with that?Post-post edit.Eh... I'm not really certain how to answer that first one, I'm pretty sure this is how I always post. Possibly I'm just used to going on hyper defensive over nothing from other forums. I'll probably have to work on that. I'm not particularly worried about being investigated, but Scripten's case on me seemed questionable at best, or else based off a mistake no worse than what some of the other new players have done already. In any case, his claims on me seemed wrong from my point of view, so I wanted to try applying some pressure back. Apparently, I'm bad at that.
Above post has been updated for replies over last hour or so.
Additionally,
Deus Asmoth
Why are you getting jumpy and panicky all of a sudden? It's almost like you're freaking out and going bezerk because the attention of the other players is on you, you scummy scum scum, huh? Answers. ASAP. What makes you so worried that you're being investigated? Why should you not be lynched? What are you contributing to scumhunting in general? Stat.
Most of my scumhunting seems to be aimed at Scintillant, who doesn't seem to be in the mood to answer my questions at the moment.
I'll respond to the rest of the thread soon when I get back on my computer.
Post by: Deus Asmoth on November 28, 2014, 06:45:18 pm
Post by: Scintillant on November 28, 2014, 06:48:44 pm
Dunno. That's just how I talk and write when I'm being pressed for answers. Why do you consider it worthy of note?Using those words and phrases makes it appear that you don't want to fully commit to your post. This could be indicative of scum, since you could easily deny any questioning of this post by replying "Oh, I wasn't sure", and avoid suspicion.
Post by: Scintillant on November 28, 2014, 07:19:59 pm
NQT:
Scintillant offers a number of reasons to vote Shamrock and backs them up in reference to actual posts. This case is formed in reaction to Scripten's questioning, and the vote on Shamrock is buried in the response rather than directed at their target. A great way to to get inexperienced players mislynched is to not directly question them when you're trying to lynch them.What exactly are you implying here? Are you implying that I was trying to get Comrade mislynched? You seem to be saying at first that my case against Comrade was good, but then go into observations about it and describe a possible scumtell. How do those three things relate?
Initial Conclusions: Deus Asmoth wagonned on the SBC mislynch and didn't vote at all when Shamrock was mislynched. Masked Krusader was on both mislynches with somewhat suspect cases; Scripten was on both mislynches with even more suspect cases. Cheetah and Scintillant didn't have amazing cases against Shamrock but they had cases. Dorsidwarf stayed off both mislynches. I'd be interested to see who they think is scum now we've had some flips.At the top of your post, you vote Deus Asmoth. However, here, and throughout your post, you repeatedly accuse Scripten of having weak cases, bandwagoning, and general scumminess, specifically here.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Deus Asmoth:
NQT: I didn't put a vote down by the end of day one because I was fairly sure Shamrock wasn't scum and didn't want to vote for him, but I wasn't certain enough about Crusader to vote for him. Perhaps I should have voted for him anyway, but I wasn't sure enough.Wow. That has to be the most uncertain post I've seen in a long time. This is a very, very suspicious post. You refuse to commit to any sort of position here.
Scripten, I think we can all agree that what you just posted is a big pile of crap.Why is this? I see no justification in your post that explains why Scripten's post is "a big pile of crap".
Most of my scumhunting seems to be aimed at Scintillant, who doesn't seem to be in the mood to answer my questions at the moment.Again with the uncertainty. Also, which questions have I not answered?
Also, 5 replacements total? Wow. At this rate, we'll have a full turnover of players before the day ends :P
Post by: TheDarkStar on November 28, 2014, 07:59:32 pm
BTW, there's another hour for replacements to sign up as a replacement.
Post by: Deus Asmoth on November 28, 2014, 08:00:49 pm
Deus Asmoth:No I don't, in any way whatsoever. I literally spelled out my reasons for not voting at the end of D1. I didn't think Shamrock was scum, I thought Crusader was but I wasn't confident enough in that case to put a vote on inn. Then I acknowledged that it might have been a mistake not to vote for him in spite of that. I'd like to know what it is you find so suspicious about that.NQT: I didn't put a vote down by the end of day one because I was fairly sure Shamrock wasn't scum and didn't want to vote for him, but I wasn't certain enough about Crusader to vote for him. Perhaps I should have voted for him anyway, but I wasn't sure enough.Wow. That has to be the most uncertain post I've seen in a long time. This is a very, very suspicious post. You refuse to commit to any sort of position here.
Quote
A couple of reasons. First he accused me of attempting to get town cred by making it look like I had been crusading for Shamrock, when up until that point I'd been explaining why I wasn't certain enough about Shamrock to defend him. Second, he said I was wriggling even though I hadn't changed my position on anything.Scripten, I think we can all agree that what you just posted is a big pile of crap.Why is this? I see no justification in your post that explains why Scripten's post is "a big pile of crap".
Quote
You questioned me about the uncertainty in this post already, about three posts above this one. Are you trying to make it seem like this is something I'm constantly doing by only posting half of it this time? I'll go hunt down those questions for you now, I guess.Most of my scumhunting seems to be aimed at Scintillant, who doesn't seem to be in the mood to answer my questions at the moment.Again with the uncertainty. Also, which questions have I not answered?
Post by: Deus Asmoth on November 28, 2014, 08:39:08 pm
Scintillant, one other thing: what's the difference between Shamrock's defense of misreading some of Scripten's posts and you justifying some of your actions by saying they're newb mistakes? Why is it scummy for Shamrock to call himself stupid but not so for you to call yourself a newb?Here's the one that's still pretty much relevant, and since your reason for voting for me seems to be uncertainty in a post, I guess I'll tack on these:
If you think it's suspicious for me to appear indecisive in one post, wouldn't it be considered suspicious that you changed your vote as many times as you did on day one?
Why did you want another extension to day 1 when the person you were voting for was going to get lynched, and why weren't you quizzing anyone else if you had misgivings about voting Shamrock?
Why did you want me to find questions you missed for you rather than reading back through the thread yourself?
Post by: TheDarkStar on November 28, 2014, 09:35:32 pm
After inspecting 4mask's remains, the Mind Replacement Agency finds enough parts of his brain that they can reconstruct most of his mind.
masked_krusader, having lost his mind, is sent to the operating room where they move parts of 4maskwolf's brain in. krusader, now 4mask, then returns to the discussion.
Post by: 4maskwolf on November 28, 2014, 09:43:39 pm
I'll get to my analysis of things in a little bit, because I'm doing other things right now.
Post by: 4maskwolf on November 28, 2014, 09:49:03 pm
you claimed it was scummy, so you must have an idea of his motive for doing it.Okay, this is SUCH bullcrap, Cheeetar. Just because something seems scummy does NOT mean that a motive can be easily discerned. Sometimes things just seem off, even if we can't place what. You should know this, you've been playing mafia way longer than I have. Even if things seem scummy, it may be a while before we figure out what is bothering us about it.
Again, I'll get some reads later, I just noticed that at the top of the page.
Post by: Cheeetar on November 29, 2014, 12:20:52 am
I don't like how quickly this Deus Asmoth lynch is forming.
Dorsidwarf: How in particular does Deus Asmoth seem to be 'going berserk'? In terms of emotional responses to being questioned, Deus does not rank at all. To borrow your question: Why should Deus be lynched?
Scintillant: Do you believe Deus was telling the truth about being unsure earlier, and if so, is being unsure about things good enough as the sole reason to vote for somebody?
Post by: 4maskwolf on November 29, 2014, 12:42:10 am
Hey 4maskwolf, welcome back. It's not just Deus being suspicious of something Scripten did- it would be fine to simply note that Scripten did something strange, and ask questions about it. However, when the entirety of your case (slight hyperbole) is that 'you did this one thing and it's scummy (but I can't explain why it was scummy)', I'm going to object.Hi Cheeetar!
You have done a very good job of dodging my actual point, Cheeetar. My point was a disagreement with your objection. We have gone head to head over the implications of actions and statements in the past, so this avoidance is highly suspicious.
Additionally, is that not how cases are built, Cheeetar? Something seems scummy, you vote them and pressure them, trying to get them to break?
Post by: Cheeetar on November 29, 2014, 01:05:07 am
That's the beginning of scumhunting, sure- for Deus, it seemed to be the end of it, which is why I was questioning him about it. You'll note in his OMGUS that he isn't asking Scripten any questions about what he's doing, just saying 'you're scummy for this.'
Spoiler: I'm counting this question as rhetorical by the way. (click to show/hide)
Post by: Cheeetar on November 29, 2014, 01:07:57 am
Similarly: Scripten, Deus Asmoth, Dorsidwarf, NotQuiteThere, Scintillant- if you're at all able to post reads, or at the very least the people you believe most/least scummy, that would be very useful.
Post by: 4maskwolf on November 29, 2014, 01:09:10 am
Oh! 4maskwolf, now that you've replaced in: Would you post your reads?Tomorrow. It's well past the time when my brain shuts down for the night, so while I may post in other areas of the forums for a bit I don't have the energy to go through the thread.
Similarly: Scripten, Deus Asmoth, Dorsidwarf, NotQuiteThere, Scintillant- if you're at all able to post reads, or at the very least the people you believe most/least scummy, that would be very useful.
Post by: Cheeetar on November 29, 2014, 01:10:22 am
Cheeeetar: Needs to post more content. Hard to read. Isn't posting much advice, for a registered IC. Has questions on masked, but masked is replacing out. Null read (content-to-post ratio too low).
Sorry about this. I'd like to point out I didn't register as IC- just replacement. I'm more than willing to act as a standin, but I'm not sure how you'd like me to give advice. More of a reactive teacher than a proactive one. If you want my 'official IC opinion' on a theoretical, feel free to ask.
Post by: Dorsidwarf on November 29, 2014, 02:58:34 am
Cheetar:
For reasons why Deus currently has my lynch vote - they were getting real upset about having some votes on them, so I voted them and launched an attack. They seem to have clammed up now, oddly, which could mean they're just in DAMAGE CONTROL mode, or could be, say, receiving advice over scumchat or from their scum IC, warning them to calm down. Make of that what you will. However, looks like krusader got replaced, so...
4Maskwolf : Hi! Good to see you replacing in, scumnuts. I've been suspicious of your predecessor, so you get to start off in the Sin Bin. Can you shed light on his erratic behaviour, hypocrisy, and lazy reason-stealing bandwagon voting?
Post by: Dorsidwarf on November 29, 2014, 03:00:13 am
Votecount, please, TDS.
Post by: Deus Asmoth on November 29, 2014, 06:04:50 am
Dorsi, I do tend to clam up while I'm asleep, yes. Or do you mean that my later posts are less emotional that my earlier? If that's the case, what is it that makes the earlier ones seem so emotional to you?
I have three reads that are in any fit state to present, I'll need to read over a few posts again to get the last two.
Scintillant is piggy backing his vote again, with a very dubious and hypocritical argument (again). He voted for Shamrock for making excuses while using newbie mistakes as an excuse when it suited him, and his argument for voting for me is perceived indecisiveness in spite of him changing his vote any time it looked like he was making a stand alone day one. He has yet to vote for someone that doesn't already have at least one vote on them. This guy is scum.
Scripten very eager to dismiss some of Scintillant's mistakes as those of a new player, doesn't seem to want to do the same for others. Very insistent that a certain question was not loaded and got kind of emotional about it. He's trying to justify this by saying that to claim otherwise is insulting his play, yet he doesn't have a problem with trying to insult other people (and trying to convince them that it's a compliment that he's trying to get them mislynched (?)). I think he's scum, but I'm not as certain about it as I am with Scintillant. Scripten and Scintillant are my bet for the scumteam, in any case.
The mask bros: Crusader got pretty heated when Shamrock was questioning him, and said that his vote against the Comrade wasn't an OMGUS even though he didn't actually provide any reasons for the vote until asked for them. Wolf hasn't given me much to go on yet, but on the other hand he hasn't tried to get me mislynched yet, so that's a plus. Slight lean towards scum over the Shamrock vote.
Post by: Deus Asmoth on November 29, 2014, 07:21:13 am
Dorsi, you upgraded your case on me from slightly suspicious to moderately suspicious to a vote in the space of twenty minutes without a single post from me in between. What changed your mind (twice)? Why not just vote for me straight off?
Post by: TheDarkStar on November 29, 2014, 08:22:42 am
Wait, I think I might have messed up the syntax for that vote.
Votecount, please, TDS.
Here:
With the Mind Replacement Agency's work complete, discussion resumes.
Day 2 will end on Tuesday, 2AM UTC (a few days from now).
Votes:
Scripten:
Deus Asmoth: NotQuiteThere, Scripten, Scintillant
Dorsidwarf:
NotQuiteThere:
Scintillant: Deus Asmoth
Cheeetar:
No Lynch:
Not voting: NotQuiteThere
Post by: Dorsidwarf on November 29, 2014, 08:41:40 am
Post by: notquitethere on November 29, 2014, 08:53:17 am
Post by: Deus Asmoth on November 29, 2014, 09:32:43 am
The 1) in your reply implies you had something else to say. Did you have an answer to my other question that got deleted?
Post by: Cheeetar on November 29, 2014, 11:10:07 am
Cheetar, since you're suspicious of me for now asking enough questions of Scripten, does it bother you at all that he asked me a sum total of one question of me during our exchange, and off laced with WIFOM at that? And in response to an earlier question, I never said that Scripten had said he didn't think Shamrock was scum. I said Scripten was going after a person who said they didn't think Shamrock was scum.
Scripten has a lot clearer an idea of why he believes you're scum- "To expand more on the reason for my vote, this is a blatant attempt to harvest towncred out of a townie flip." He points out what's scummy, and explains why. You've pointed out something you believe is suspicious/scummy on Scripten's side, but don't seem to be clear on why it is, nor are you attempting to find out more.
And yes, sorry for not understanding what you said about Scripten going after that guy- I'm clear on your meaning now.
Post by: Dorsidwarf on November 29, 2014, 11:25:03 am
Because I forgot to put it in the actual set of reads. Plus, The second set of reads is four minutes from the actual vote (4:58). Typing on a phone is much slower than on PC.
Post-post-edit: Last sentence of previous post should read "2) The reads took ages to make".
For further explanation of that, the first set of reads took me ~ an hour to do, due to constant flicking back and forth to check the thread (On an iPad) and watching TV. During that time, an argument happened, which changed my reads, so I re-did them. After editing the previous set of reads, I posted them, then realised I hadn't actually commented on the newly updated reads of the players, which I then did. This included a vote , on you.
Does that help clear things up a little for you?
Previous question:
Yes, by "clam up", I meant you started to become less emotional and more game logic-y.
Post by: Deus Asmoth on November 29, 2014, 12:46:16 pm
Post by: Scripten on November 29, 2014, 02:02:18 pm
Cheetar:
For reasons why Deus currently has my lynch vote - they were getting real upset about having some votes on them, so I voted them and launched an attack. They seem to have clammed up now, oddly, which could mean they're just in DAMAGE CONTROL mode, or could be, say, receiving advice over scumchat or from their scum IC, warning them to calm down. Make of that what you will. However, looks like krusader got replaced, so...
I wouldn't say he got particularly heated, though. Of the two of us, I'm the more emotional player. That said, his replies stank of wiggling around until the very last second he couldn't support his case any more.
4Maskwolf : Hi! Good to see you replacing in, scumnuts. I've been suspicious of your predecessor, so you get to start off in the Sin Bin. Can you shed light on his erratic behaviour, hypocrisy, and lazy reason-stealing bandwagon voting?
First off, I'm going to advise against scumhunting in this manner. Replacing into a slot doesn't afford you any more knowledge of what's in the mind of the player you're replacing, save for if they have a power role or are scum. Though it may seem fruitful to pursue this line of hunting due to the latter case, the questions can be easily discarded by even moderately competent scum.
I would recommend attempting to interact with 4maskwolf directly to build reads on his behavior.
Also, could you reply to this question, please:
Hah, no. I'm currently typing up a long post and I wanted to get conversation rolling ASAP. Also, that was literally five(!) RL hours you're talking about. I was out on a date with my girlfriend and didn't want scum to tie up the vote at the last minute, as I explained.
Do you think that a counter-wagon was likely to arise in that time?
Deus Asmoth
Scintillant is piggy backing his vote again, with a very dubious and hypocritical argument (again). He voted for Shamrock for making excuses while using newbie mistakes as an excuse when it suited him, and his argument for voting for me is perceived indecisiveness in spite of him changing his vote any time it looked like he was making a stand alone day one. He has yet to vote for someone that doesn't already have at least one vote on them. This guy is scum.
Scintillant is more likely to be newbtown than newbscum. Look at his day 2 contributions, specifically.
Scripten very eager to dismiss some of Scintillant's mistakes as those of a new player, doesn't seem to want to do the same for others. Very insistent that a certain question was not loaded and got kind of emotional about it. He's trying to justify this by saying that to claim otherwise is insulting his play, yet he doesn't have a problem with trying to insult other people (and trying to convince them that it's a compliment that he's trying to get them mislynched (?)). I think he's scum, but I'm not as certain about it as I am with Scintillant. Scripten and Scintillant are my bet for the scumteam, in any case.
I'll let you in on a little secret. If you want to find associative tells, don't look for where the links are. Look for where players are trying to look like they aren't aligned. That's where scum will usually be hiding.
I'm insistent that you're misinterpreting my play and that it's frustrating. I've explained myself plenty of times, and everyone else gets it except for you. That you continue to push and refuse to relent a poorly thought-out case makes me think you are scum. I apologize if I've insulted you, but I explained exactly what my thought process was. I'm not attacking your play because I'm a big meanie. I'm attacking it because it's scummy due to your reactions. That is, if you are town you are playing in an anti-town manner without realizing it even with more than two players telling you so. (I mention that there are more than two because that means you have guaranteed town in that group.) Judging by your playstyle and a general read on your personality, I don't believe that this is the case, so the alternative is that your scum.
The mask bros: Crusader got pretty heated when Shamrock was questioning him, and said that his vote against the Comrade wasn't an OMGUS even though he didn't actually provide any reasons for the vote until asked for them. Wolf hasn't given me much to go on yet, but on the other hand he hasn't tried to get me mislynched yet, so that's a plus. Slight lean towards scum over the Shamrock vote.
The bolded bit is a massive red flag. Why are you more happy to aim at players that have been attempting to push your lynch?
Also, you're very insistent in saying that your lynch is a mislynch, DA. Are you hoping people will interpret it as a townslip?
Post by: Deus Asmoth on November 29, 2014, 03:01:23 pm
As for calling it a mislynch, I call cats cats as well. I like to call things what they are. I may need to correct myself about this later, but I'm near certain that you've only referred to it as a mislynch when it's pointed at you as well.
Post by: Scripten on November 29, 2014, 03:20:38 pm
It's not that I'm more eager to go after people who are suspicious of me, it's that Mask is examining the cases of people who are voting for me. If he were scum, he'd have no reason to do that (unless you want to get into WIFOM).
Scum also want to look like town. I wouldn't so readily discount another player as scum.
As for calling it a mislynch, I call cats cats as well. I like to call things what they are. I may need to correct myself about this later, but I'm near certain that you've only referred to it as a mislynch when it's pointed at you as well.
This may be true, actually. However, it's all about the context. Would you say that I've pushed the idea that my lynch is a mislynch?
Post by: Deus Asmoth on November 29, 2014, 03:43:33 pm
Assuming Mask is scum, what does he stand to gain by keeping one town player alive over another? Most of the town need to wind up dead for him to win in any case, and if people thought I was still suspicious on day 3, they'd also have to wonder why Mask didn't think I was suspicious as well. It's a bit of a risky play, surely?
Post by: Cheeetar on November 29, 2014, 03:48:06 pm
Assuming Mask is scum, what does he stand to gain by keeping one town player alive over another? Most of the town need to wind up dead for him to win in any case, and if people thought I was still suspicious on day 3, they'd also have to wonder why Mask didn't think I was suspicious as well. It's a bit of a risky play, surely?
Deus Asmoth: As scum, what does Scripten gain by confirming the lynch on Comrade Shamrock?
Oh dear. The question you found so strange earlier you are asking to defend 4maskwolf. I find this suspicious, Deus Asmoth.
Post by: Cheeetar on November 29, 2014, 03:53:06 pm
Post by: Dorsidwarf on November 29, 2014, 04:04:39 pm
Ok, but what is it that makes the earlier posts seem so emotional to you? Because I'm still not seeing it.You got defensive suddenly when Scripten started up on you, and your posts had the feel of "emotionally involved" to them, with accusations ( Some of which were false) contained within, whereas lately it's like you've stepped back and are making posts from a different angle.
Scripten:
No, I don't think that any form of counter-lynch was likely to develop in the five hours between post and Day End. Comrade was being seriously scummy, and failed to argue a single, coherent point to try and save himself, and didn't even bother to claim. That's why I think it's odd that you plonked that vote there, since your reasoning was "To stop the scumteam forcing a nolynch". This seems like bullshit, since two people suddenly tying up the vote near to day end would basically paint a gigantic target on the scum, saying "Lynch me!"
Additionally, what made you believe that none of the people already voting comrade were scum? Especially since both the scum would have to vote the same person (Scillinant or SBC at the time of your post) in order to tie it, and several people weren't voting.
Finally, I understand you were preoccupied with RL at the time, but what makes voting someone you previously werent even FOS-ing who is the leader for the vote by two players to "prevent vote tie", barely an hour after masked posted his hilariously bad vote on him, the best possible use of your lynch?
________________________
In reference to 4mask greeting - I'm reminding him that his predecessor was under flak from me, and was generally a gigantic bag of scumnity, in order to let him get that he is not in a comfortable position, has earned a vote via inheritance, and needs to hold the quality baton a lot higher than Krusader did if he really is town.
Post by: Deus Asmoth on November 29, 2014, 04:05:12 pm
Scripten, I've looked at Scintillant's day two posts. This may be inexperience on my part, but I don't see what it is that makes you think he's new rather than scum.
Post by: Cheeetar on November 29, 2014, 04:08:32 pm
Post by: 4maskwolf on November 29, 2014, 04:10:54 pm
4Maskwolf : Hi! Good to see you replacing in, scumnuts. I've been suspicious of your predecessor, so you get to start off in the Sin Bin. Can you shed light on his erratic behaviour, hypocrisy, and lazy reason-stealing bandwagon voting?No, I can't. I can't shed any light on masked_krusader's thought process: only he can do that. As Scripten said, I am not knowledgable as to the mind of my predecessor.
Here's a question for IC answering: Is there ever a situation outside of MyLo when a No Vote can be justified ( barring nonstandard set ups? )In a bm: not really. Most setups where all roles are known mean that a no-lynch is just a waste of a day, since you don't get a roleflip to base things on. D1 no-lynches are particularly egregious, since you've essentially just run in circles and given the scum a free kill without gaining any solid info. So in a bm, I'd say no.
(Voice of original 4maskwolf from beyond the grave, since that one was an IC).
Unvote Cheeetar:
You basically answered my concerns in your second post, though it still bugs me that you would give a blanket "Votes without solid evidence are bad" rather than the barely longer "Votes without solid evidence and scumhunting are bad".
You want reads? Here's my reads at the moment, without searching back through the game too much.
Scripten: Intelligent, playing well, and one of the more experienced players to start the game. I haven't played with him enough to know his meta, so I'm going to give him a slight town lean.
Deus Asmoth: Defensive, but given my own play-style I can't really fault him for it (I play my best as town when under pressure). Posts make fairly good sense, and the speed at which people jumped on his lynch when apparently masked_krusader had been playing erratically the day before (and thus deserving attention) is disturbing. Neutral read barring further information.
Dorsidwarf: Made an easy mistake to make in questioning me (asking about my predecessor), otherwise I don't have much to go on. Neutral read.
Cheeetar: I'm still bothered by his comment at the top of page 19, as well as the fact that he's only addressing the person he's voting for when challenged (I didn't even realize he was voting for me prior to the votecount). Slight scum read.
notquitethere: Uses previous games as evidence, which only works to a certain extent (and for pities sake, DON'T tell the scum how to fool you. While I appreciated it as a first-time scum, it's not helpful as town at all). Has made (one?) post today, so I don't have much to go off of. I've never been able to get a good read on him either. Null read.
I forgot someone... time to check the votecount
Scintillant: Null, I haven't really read their posts yet.
I wouldn't. That's no reason for me not to remind people that killing me won't help them, though.Don't be so quick to assume. I think most people who've played with me would agree that I play my best games as scum (minus the original CYOM as town, but that wasn't my playstyle so much as doing math). While I wouldn't say to dismiss such things outright, as they can be indicators of benevolent intent, it is important to take everything with a grain of salt and remember that scum want to be seen as town, and so will attempt to mimic town actions.
Assuming Mask is scum, what does he stand to gain by keeping one town player alive over another? Most of the town need to wind up dead for him to win in any case, and if people thought I was still suspicious on day 3, they'd also have to wonder why Mask didn't think I was suspicious as well. It's a bit of a risky play, surely?
In reference to 4mask greeting - I'm reminding him that his predecessor was under flak from me, and was generally a gigantic bag of scumnity, in order to let him get that he is not in a comfortable position, has earned a vote via inheritance, and needs to hold the quality baton a lot higher than Krusader did if he really is town.Your point is noted. Actually, I'm quite comfortable where I am, I play my best under pressure (often after cracking first and yelling at people, but not this time).
I never said your question was strange. I answered it and you told me my answer was suspicious due to WIFOM. Now you're telling me that the question itself is also suspicious, and that's just weird. I'd already acknowledged the WIFOM in this question in an earlier post, Scripten told me not to discount Mask so easily, so I asked him what Mask could gain from that play as scum.Hypothetical scum 4mask stands to gain exactly what you're giving me. Town cred. A small buffer zone and a small amount of trust. All of these things are helpful to scum.
And of course, as I kept adding responses to posts that came up more posts appeared. Six posts while I was typing, in total.
Post by: Dorsidwarf on November 29, 2014, 04:17:47 pm
Post by: Scintillant on November 29, 2014, 04:21:37 pm
Scintillant, one other thing: what's the difference between Shamrock's defense of misreading some of Scripten's posts and you justifying some of your actions by saying they're newb mistakes? Why is it scummy for Shamrock to call himself stupid but not so for you to call yourself a newb?Now that I think about it, there isn't really a difference. That was hypocritical of me and it was my fault.
If you think it's suspicious for me to appear indecisive in one post, wouldn't it be considered suspicious that you changed your vote as many times as you did on day one?Each time I changed my vote, I had a reason for doing so, namely receiving satisfactory answers to my questions. In your case, however, I see the indecisiveness as scummy. You said earlier that that's just how you talk when you're pressed for answers. Why would you need to be indecisive, and thus, in my mind, evasive, when you're being questioned? Only scum would need to be evasive.
Why did you want another extension to day 1 when the person you were voting for was going to get lynched, and why weren't you quizzing anyone else if you had misgivings about voting Shamrock?
Why did you want me to find questions you missed for you rather than reading back through the thread yourself?
I wanted a D1 extension because I saw that there were a few questions directed towards me that I wouldn't have the time to answer before the day ended. Also, I don't see any place where I express misgivings about voting Comrade.
When I reread the thread, I missed your question, so I asked you to find it.
Cheeetar:
I don't like how quickly this Deus Asmoth lynch is forming.Why is this? How is a lynch forming quickly bad?
Scintillant: Do you believe Deus was telling the truth about being unsure earlier, and if so, is being unsure about things good enough as the sole reason to vote for somebody?I don't think Deus was telling the truth about being unsure. In my opinion, town play should be loud and confident. I think I saw it referred to somewhere as "boozed up and looking to lynch someone". Unsureness, I feel, is a scum tell. And no, unsureness is not good enough of a reason, but Deus, as Scripten said earlier, has also consistently been misreading Scripten's posts to make an inaccurate representation of Scripten.
Reads coming soon.
Post by: 4maskwolf on November 29, 2014, 04:24:56 pm
Cheeetar:A rapidly-forming lynch is often an indication of scum players jumping on a mislynch. Usually, on any given mislynch you will find some (but not all, unless there is only one) scum player on the lynch, so oftentimes the second or third person ends up being scum. While this is not always the case, it happens often enough with bandwagons that it perks people's ears up when one happens.I don't like how quickly this Deus Asmoth lynch is forming.Why is this? How is a lynch forming quickly bad?
Post by: Deus Asmoth on November 29, 2014, 04:31:49 pm
Post by: Deus Asmoth on November 29, 2014, 05:25:44 pm
Deus Asmoth:Is this a rhetorical question? I've already told you that it's a speech habit that bleeds through to writing when I'm rushed, which I was when typing the response that seems to have made you decide I'm unwilling to commit to anything. It's also worth bearing in mind that that response was an answer to Dorsi asking me why I was acting over emotionally, which I didn't think I was. I don't see how anyone could be 100% certain about why they're making someone else think something.Scintillant, one other thing: what's the difference between Shamrock's defense of misreading some of Scripten's posts and you justifying some of your actions by saying they're newb mistakes? Why is it scummy for Shamrock to call himself stupid but not so for you to call yourself a newb?Now that I think about it, there isn't really a difference. That was hypocritical of me and it was my fault.If you think it's suspicious for me to appear indecisive in one post, wouldn't it be considered suspicious that you changed your vote as many times as you did on day one?Each time I changed my vote, I had a reason for doing so, namely receiving satisfactory answers to my questions. In your case, however, I see the indecisiveness as scummy. You said earlier that that's just how you talk when you're pressed for answers. Why would you need to be indecisive, and thus, in my mind, evasive, when you're being questioned? Only scum would need to be evasive.
Why did you want another extension to day 1 when the person you were voting for was going to get lynched, and why weren't you quizzing anyone else if you had misgivings about voting Shamrock?
Why did you want me to find questions you missed for you rather than reading back through the thread yourself?
The replies you gave when pulling your votes don't exactly make it seem like the answers were satisfactory. Your gut was telling you there was something off about Masked and you were still suspicious of Comrade, but rather than press them more you unvoted. Why?
Post by: Cheeetar on November 29, 2014, 06:12:12 pm
Cheetar, why do you think my question was a defence rather than an actual question? I was curious about the thought process involved.
You brought up Mask being likely townie in your read of him, and continued to state his likely towniehood after being questioned. That's why I read it as a defence of him, rather than a purely hypothetical question in Scripten's questioning of your read on him.
Post by: 4maskwolf on November 29, 2014, 06:40:46 pm
Remember when dealing with the IC's and other long-term players that they are simply an experienced player. While we have some amount of experience with the game, do not mistake this for knowing things perfectly clearly. We can and do make mistakes, just the same as you do.
There are two extremes I've seen this go to. The more common and visible of these is thinking that because of their experience, the IC's are out to get everyone else in the game. This is simply not true: it is our job to teach, not to annihilate the new players. I actually am the exact opposite when I start as IC: I avoid going full bore confrontational for Day One, to allow me to interact personally with each player without hostility, before kicking it into full gear on Day Two.
The other extreme, however, is more insidious and perhaps more damaging. This is the belief that the IC's somehow see things more clearly than the regular players, and as such their beliefs hold more weight. Remember that IC's are just as likely to be scum as any other player, and that it is our role to teach you to play, not to dominate the game. We will play our best, obviously, but take everything we say with a grain of salt.
Good luck, and have fun.
Post by: Scintillant on November 30, 2014, 02:58:00 am
The replies you gave when pulling your votes don't exactly make it seem like the answers were satisfactory. Your gut was telling you there was something off about Masked and you were still suspicious of Comrade, but rather than press them more you unvoted. Why?Other than the gut feeling, I didn't have much of a case against either of them after they addressed my concerns, so I unvoted. I view gut feeling as a reminder to keep them in the back of my head and pay more attention to their posts than I otherwise would. However, I don't see it as enough of a reason to keep a vote on them.
I've already told you that it's a speech habit that bleeds through to writing when I'm rushed, which I was when typing the response that seems to have made you decide I'm unwilling to commit to anything. It's also worth bearing in mind that that response was an answer to Dorsi asking me why I was acting over emotionally, which I didn't think I was. I don't see how anyone could be 100% certain about why they're making someone else think something.Ok, I'll trust you on that.
Reads:
Scripten: Active, contributes, and arguments appear mostly solid. Town lean.
Deus Asmoth: Some questionable arguments during their dispute with Scripten. Slight scum lean.
Dorsidwarf: Contributing, no visible issues. Slight town lean.
4maskwolf: Active and contributing. Slight town lean
notquitethere: Not many posts, but with a lot of content. Null read so far.
Scintillant: Obviously town ;)
Cheeetar: Active, contributing, no visible issues. Slight town lean.
Post by: Cheeetar on November 30, 2014, 06:20:08 am
Post by: notquitethere on November 30, 2014, 07:44:17 pm
What exactly are you implying here? Are you implying that I was trying to get Comrade mislynched? You seem to be saying at first that my case against Comrade was good, but then go into observations about it and describe a possible scumtell. How do those three things relate?I'm saying that on the surface it looks like you're offering a reasonable case, but by not addressing Shamrock directly you present your case in the way most favourable for scum. I'm not implying anything, I was describing what I saw.
At the top of your post, you vote Deus Asmoth. However, here, and throughout your post, you repeatedly accuse Scripten of having weak cases, bandwagoning, and general scumminess[...]I have reasonable grounds to suspect that either Dorsidwarf is scum or Deus is (given that scum don't typically both vote for the same person on a D1 mislynch). That's a smaller pool to choose from the people that were on the Shamrock mislynch. Deus is the scummier of him and Dorsi, hence the vote. Doesn't mean I don't think Scripten is suspicious.
In addition, several of the arguments that you use to show Deus Asmoth's potential scumminess can just as easily be applied to Scripten. Why are you voting Deus, and not Scripten?
Do you particularly want me to vote Scripten instead?
Deus Asmoth
NQT I told Scintillant I didn't see any difference between his earlier defences and Shamrock saying he had made a mistake in reading Scripten's posts, and I put pressure on Crusader when his only justification for thinking Shamrock was scum was that he thought Shamrock was scum. That said, Shamrock had been pushing some fairly weak cases beforehand and I wasn't confident enough to put my neck on the chopping block if he did turn out to be scum.I see, so your interest in self-preservation trumped any desire to lynch scum at that point.
As for not voting, if I had put a vote on Masked or Scintillant at a point when it wouldn't have made any difference, how would that have made me seem any less scummy to you?It would have concretely demonstrated that you had suspicions. Also, players can do more than just passively vote one another. They can make attempts to sway and persuade other town when they believe there's a mislynch about to occur. Here, though, you mostly seem to be interested in avoiding looking scummy.
Scripten
It is passive aggressive. I can't tell if you're trying to garner more information from Scintillant by suggesting lightly that he was manipulating the vote or if you are trying to link his push back to me by suggesting that it was my questioning that led to him making that push. I don't necessarily think you are scummy for it, I just don't like that push and I'd have liked to see it be a little more direct.I was just pointing out that it was a good scum technique (though not a technique that is particularly indicative of being scum). I find it interesting that you're reading so much into this.
Of course. Every day brings with it more information and thus stronger grounds for lynches.And would you say your current case against Asmoth is stronger than your Day 1 case?
Exactly, but where do you think the suspicion for pro-scum questions being fielded should go? I'm certainly not going to scumread a newbie for answering an IC's rolefishing question.I wouldn't make any strong claims of suspicion based on merely asking pro-scum questions as that's something town players (inadvertently) do all the time.
Post by: Dorsidwarf on December 01, 2014, 03:17:50 am
Scripten
Why are you defending scintilliant so hard? You're really going out of your way to defend him from the big bad NQT, you know. Insisting that his bandwagonyness, frequent lack of his own case, unwillingness to start his own cases, willingness to try and NL day one as soon as dumbo proposed it, followed by then unvoting and suspecting him for it. You keep insisting that he's town too -
Quote
Scintillant is more likely to be newbtown than newbscum. Look at his day 2 contributions, specifically.- sans explaining, a sentiment which is repeated several times, to different people, including NQTs mega-analysis. Interestingly, barely a few posts on, you smack DA for saying they aren't scum, since
Quote
Scum also want to look like town. I wouldn't so readily discount another player as scum.
So, whats up with that? Why do you discount Scillinant automatically as scum, because he's new and not playing well, but decide that a different new player is definitely scum for playing badly, and advise them not to "discount" people as scum?
In short, why the hypocrisy, Scripten?
Post by: Deus Asmoth on December 01, 2014, 06:22:13 am
Deus AsmothIf you want to put it like that. My interest in self preservation trumped my desire to defend someone who could very well have turned out to be scum at that point. I wasn't certain, and when I'm uncertain I prefer to get more information. That's a mistake in this game, as I have learned.NQT I told Scintillant I didn't see any difference between his earlier defences and Shamrock saying he had made a mistake in reading Scripten's posts, and I put pressure on Crusader when his only justification for thinking Shamrock was scum was that he thought Shamrock was scum. That said, Shamrock had been pushing some fairly weak cases beforehand and I wasn't confident enough to put my neck on the chopping block if he did turn out to be scum.I see, so your interest in self-preservation trumped any desire to lynch scum at that point.
Post by: Scripten on December 01, 2014, 02:54:44 pm
Do you particularly want me to vote Scripten instead?
This slightly bugs me, since associative reads before a scum flip are problematic, but it suggests that NQT is indeed town. I can explain after Scintillant has responded to elucidate exactly what I mean. I'll be waiting so as to avoid corrupting his answer.
I was just pointing out that it was a good scum technique (though not a technique that is particularly indicative of being scum). I find it interesting that you're reading so much into this.
Your pushes are bugging me, to be honest. You keep making suggestions and it feels manipulative/scummy. I wish I had more meta experience with you to know your scum game better, since, as I said above, you do seem to show pro-town motivation. There's definitely a disconnect going on here, though I'm not sure if it's on your end or mine.
Of course. Every day brings with it more information and thus stronger grounds for lynches.And would you say your current case against Asmoth is stronger than your Day 1 case?
Certainly. If nothing else, it's at least significantly more well-informed, considering we've have two town flips and have VCA to look at. (VCA stands for Vote Count Analysis. It's a useful tool at times.)
I wouldn't make any strong claims of suspicion based on merely asking pro-scum questions as that's something town players (inadvertently) do all the time.
We can't all be town. There's two scum, and I didn't have anything stronger. Just because town do certain things doesn't preclude scum from doing them. As SBC was an IC, I expected that he had enough experience to be asking pro-town questions rather than pro-scum ones. I was wrong, but I do not feel that my suspicion was misplaced.
Dorsidwarf
Why are you defending scintilliant so hard? You're really going out of your way to defend him from the big bad NQT, you know.
Actually, I'm scumhunting NQT and calling him out for manipulative tendencies that are consistent with scum play. Though my town read on Scintillant does make me disagree with him, the gameplay elements are wholly independent of that.
Insisting that his bandwagonyness, frequent lack of his own case, unwillingness to start his own cases, willingness to try and NL day one as soon as dumbo proposed it, followed by then unvoting and suspecting him for it. You keep insisting that he's town too -QuoteScintillant is more likely to be newbtown than newbscum. Look at his day 2 contributions, specifically.- sans explaining, a sentiment which is repeated several times, to different people, including NQTs mega-analysis.
There's only two scum. Scintillant doesn't make sense as scum, his wagon would be way too easy, and his play, while newbish, does feel like it comes from a town mindset. I have a bit of a loose equation for establishing player psychology that I've stolen from players much better than me at Mafia. It goes like this:
Player motivation + Player alignment = Player's gameplay
From each post, you can sort of reverse engineer where a player is coming from. That's what I've been doing all game. Obviously, it's not foolproof, and it's not really a hard rule, but it's helpful for gaining town reads, which are as important as scum reads.
Interestingly, barely a few posts on, you smack DA for saying they aren't scum, sinceQuoteScum also want to look like town. I wouldn't so readily discount another player as scum.
So, whats up with that? Why do you discount Scillinant automatically as scum, because he's new and not playing well, but decide that a different new player is definitely scum for playing badly, and advise them not to "discount" people as scum?
Not the same thing. Deus Asmoth is playing with an anti-town mentality that is self-preserving, and my read on his psychology leads me to see him as a more methodical, logical town player who would recognize those anti-town quirks and stop them were he town. I'm not saying just that he's a suboptimal player and deserves to hang for it. I'm saying that his gameplay is consistent with what I see as his playstyle being motivated by a scum mindset.
Does that make sense?
Post by: Cheeetar on December 01, 2014, 03:04:46 pm
Deus AsmothIf you want to put it like that. My interest in self preservation trumped my desire to defend someone who could very well have turned out to be scum at that point. I wasn't certain, and when I'm uncertain I prefer to get more information. That's a mistake in this game, as I have learned.
<snip>
I see, so your interest in self-preservation trumped any desire to lynch scum at that point.
It's never a mistake to gain more information, but while you are waiting for the responses to your inquiries you have free reign to be as active as possible. Be honest with people: "I'm really not sure if this person is scum or not! Why do you think they're scum enough to lynch them?". Encourage them to rethink the situation themselves. I won't lie when I say that it's incredibly scummy that you cite self preservation as a reason to not speak up.
Post by: Deus Asmoth on December 01, 2014, 06:34:00 pm
Not the same thing. Deus Asmoth is playing with an anti-town mentality that is self-preserving, and my read on his psychology leads me to see him as a more methodical, logical town player who would recognize those anti-town quirks and stop them were he town. I'm not saying just that he's a suboptimal player and deserves to hang for it. I'm saying that his gameplay is consistent with what I see as his playstyle being motivated by a scum mindset.Is this from my play as a whole or just the no-vote on day 1? Because I'm definitely going to have to bring up my game if I'm consistently that bad.
Post by: Scintillant on December 01, 2014, 09:09:54 pm
Who's the most likely scum partner for Deus, Scintillant?I don't really have any suspicions on this at the moment. If I was to hazard a guess, I would say one of the players that hasn't interacted with Deus much, like krusader/4mask, since not interacting with one another could be a sign that they're trying to avoid being associated with one another.
NQT:
I don't have a particular preference one way or the other, I just wanted to know the reasoning behind the vote.At the top of your post, you vote Deus Asmoth. However, here, and throughout your post, you repeatedly accuse Scripten of having weak cases, bandwagoning, and general scumminess[...]
In addition, several of the arguments that you use to show Deus Asmoth's potential scumminess can just as easily be applied to Scripten. Why are you voting Deus, and not Scripten?
I have reasonable grounds to suspect that either Dorsidwarf is scum or Deus is (given that scum don't typically both vote for the same person on a D1 mislynch). That's a smaller pool to choose from the people that were on the Shamrock mislynch. Deus is the scummier of him and Dorsi, hence the vote. Doesn't mean I don't think Scripten is suspicious.
Do you particularly want me to vote Scripten instead?
Post by: Cheeetar on December 02, 2014, 12:43:34 am
Post by: 4maskwolf on December 02, 2014, 12:52:36 am
4maskwolf, I seem to be your only scum read. Why aren't you voting for me?Because you are a soft scum read. I'd trying to get a better feel for the field before I just vote someone. I pressure voted you early on, and my scum read was based on something you had mostly answered.Deus AsmothIf you want to put it like that. My interest in self preservation trumped my desire to defend someone who could very well have turned out to be scum at that point. I wasn't certain, and when I'm uncertain I prefer to get more information. That's a mistake in this game, as I have learned.
<snip>
I see, so your interest in self-preservation trumped any desire to lynch scum at that point.
It's never a mistake to gain more information, but while you are waiting for the responses to your inquiries you have free reign to be as active as possible. Be honest with people: "I'm really not sure if this person is scum or not! Why do you think they're scum enough to lynch them?". Encourage them to rethink the situation themselves. I won't lie when I say that it's incredibly scummy that you cite self preservation as a reason to not speak up.
Post by: Deus Asmoth on December 02, 2014, 06:55:47 pm
Scintillant: Look at his reads and look at his play. His only scumread is on me, the person he's voting for, and he hasn't bothered scumhunting anyone else. When asked who he thought was the other scum, he guessed that it's Mask, using the dubious justification that Mask hasn't interacted much with me and he hasn't done anything to follow up that suspicion. His reply here:
Other than the gut feeling, I didn't have much of a case against either of them after they addressed my concerns, so I unvoted. I view gut feeling as a reminder to keep them in the back of my head and pay more attention to their posts than I otherwise would. However, I don't see it as enough of a reason to keep a vote on them.is odd. According to the first part of the quote, he unvotes when the concerns he raised while voting have been addressed. According to the second part of his vote, the concerns that caused him to vote for me have been addressed, but no unvote and his read is as generic as he can manage. He only has a slight scum read on me, but he's not doing anything to investigate his suspicions. Everything he's done just makes me think he's waiting for someone to give him a wagon to jump on. Scummiest player in the game.I've already told you that it's a speech habit that bleeds through to writing when I'm rushed, which I was when typing the response that seems to have made you decide I'm unwilling to commit to anything. It's also worth bearing in mind that that response was an answer to Dorsi asking me why I was acting over emotionally, which I didn't think I was. I don't see how anyone could be 100% certain about why they're making someone else think something.Ok, I'll trust you on that.
Dorsidwarf: Made a lot over perceived emotional outbursts on my part (that no one else agreed with, to the best of my knowledge). On the other hand, his arguments have been well reasoned as far as I can tell and he's not looking for a bandwagon, so I think he's town.
Scripten: Frankly, I'm conflicted about him. I think he's scum, but that may be coloured by our interaction at the beginning of day 2. He's very eager to discount any mistakes Scintillant has made, without offering an explanation (other than 'look at his day 2 play'). My options for him are three: I'm worse at this game than I hoped, he's worse at reading people than he thinks he is, or he's scum.
NQT: Hasn't been particularly active since before the weekend. I'm leaning towards town from his Thursday/Friday play.
Mask: Crusader was setting off a few red lights during Day 1. Wolf seems to be playing a towny but perhaps defensive game. This may be an attempt at damage control after Crusader's questionable play, so my read is neutral.
Post by: Scripten on December 02, 2014, 07:14:51 pm
When asked who he thought was the other scum, he guessed that it's Mask, using the dubious justification that Mask hasn't interacted much with me and he hasn't done anything to follow up that suspicion
Bolded the important part. This is actually a decent justification for an associative tell, though it's too early for associative reads, seeing as you haven't flipped scum yet.
Mask: Crusader was setting off a few red lights during Day 1. Wolf seems to be playing a towny but perhaps defensive game. This may be an attempt at damage control after Crusader's questionable play, so my read is neutral.
4maskwolf is your only neutral read?
Post by: Scripten on December 02, 2014, 07:22:25 pm
Is this from my play as a whole or just the no-vote on day 1? Because I'm definitely going to have to bring up my game if I'm consistently that bad.
Don't take my points on your play as a criticism for terrible town play. It's not just that. Plenty of people play town poorly, and your play is fine. However, as an example, take a look at your reads. You can literally order them from most scum to most town by way of suspicion cast your direction.
Post by: Deus Asmoth on December 02, 2014, 08:06:23 pm
I'm also reading neutral on Cheetar, but I have very little to say about him. His play feels kind of passive to me, like he's waiting for people to give him something to comment on rather than pursuing leads himself. He mentioned that he didn't like how quickly the lynch was building but didn't do much to follow it up.
Post by: TheDarkStar on December 02, 2014, 08:28:40 pm
Post by: Cheeetar on December 02, 2014, 08:29:50 pm
Deus Asmoth:NQT: I didn't put a vote down by the end of day one because I was fairly sure Shamrock wasn't scum and didn't want to vote for him, but I wasn't certain enough about Crusader to vote for him. Perhaps I should have voted for him anyway, but I wasn't sure enough.Wow. That has to be the most uncertain post I've seen in a long time. This is a very, very suspicious post. You refuse to commit to any sort of position here.Scripten, I think we can all agree that what you just posted is a big pile of crap.Why is this? I see no justification in your post that explains why Scripten's post is "a big pile of crap".Most of my scumhunting seems to be aimed at Scintillant, who doesn't seem to be in the mood to answer my questions at the moment.Again with the uncertainty. Also, which questions have I not answered?
The following contains pretty much the only reason Scintillant believes that Deus Asmoth is scum: Being uncertain. Uncertainty can be a scum tell, but it's also a very common thing for newbies, both scum and town. Scintillant also has absolutely no scum reads apart from Deus Asmoth- that is, the only person he thinks is scummy is Deus Asmoth, and the only reason he believes Deus Asmoth is scum is for being uncertain.
Post by: Cheeetar on December 02, 2014, 08:30:13 pm
Post by: Cheeetar on December 02, 2014, 08:35:18 pm
Post by: Scripten on December 02, 2014, 08:54:26 pm
Are you sure about that? Of the three votes on me, NQT has a town read, your read is scum with a disclaimer and Scintillant is number one on my scum list precisely because he hasn't voiced any suspicions other than a single indecisive post on my part. The only other person that voted for me is a town read as well.
I'm also reading neutral on Cheetar, but I have very little to say about him. His play feels kind of passive to me, like he's waiting for people to give him something to comment on rather than pursuing leads himself. He mentioned that he didn't like how quickly the lynch was building but didn't do much to follow it up.
Hmm... actually, fair enough point. I apologize, my statement was incorrect. I'd forgotten about NQT's vote on you and, in general, about Cheeetar.
Post by: 4maskwolf on December 02, 2014, 08:55:00 pm
Post by: Scripten on December 02, 2014, 08:55:28 pm
Post by: Cheeetar on December 02, 2014, 09:03:21 pm
Post by: 4maskwolf on December 02, 2014, 09:09:18 pm
Post by: 4maskwolf on December 02, 2014, 09:09:39 pm
Post by: TheDarkStar on December 02, 2014, 09:10:18 pm
Post by: Scripten on December 02, 2014, 09:10:55 pm
Thank you for extending. However: Are you unconfident that Deus will turn up scum, Scripten?
To be honest, I'm not sure. Newbie games are tough in that way. His more recent reactions have felt more town. I can tell you that I'd really enjoy seeing Dorsidwarf and NQT show up again to get some interactions from them.
Post by: Dorsidwarf on December 03, 2014, 02:01:35 am
You said in your response that the two drastically opposing statements towards scintilliant and asmoth are justified because "He's [DA] playing with an antitown mindset".
In what ways do you find Scintilliant's actions ( Bandwagoning, vote-copying, bad reasons, and tunnelling to boot) to be pro-town enough to not only persuade you hes a townie, but to stick your neck out for him repeatedly? Especially considering that several people have found this scummy enough to vote?
Post by: notquitethere on December 03, 2014, 05:26:05 am
Deus Asmoth
If you want to put it like that. My interest in self preservation trumped my desire to defend someone who could very well have turned out to be scum at that point. I wasn't certain, and when I'm uncertain I prefer to get more information. That's a mistake in this game, as I have learned.It's better to be forthright and bold (but honest), than too cautious. Scum win when town players don't speak up.
Scripten
Your pushes are bugging me, to be honest. You keep making suggestions and it feels manipulative/scummy. I wish I had more meta experience with you to know your scum game better, since, as I said above, you do seem to show pro-town motivation. There's definitely a disconnect going on here, though I'm not sure if it's on your end or mine.Hmm, if it's any consolation people often find my playstyle odd or slightly jarring as approach the game in a different way to most.
Certainly. If nothing else, it's at least significantly more well-informed, considering we've have two town flips and have VCA to look at. (VCA stands for Vote Count Analysis. It's a useful tool at times.)Oh I'm definitely in favour of vote count analysis (wasn't aware someone was using an acronym for it). Do you think you'll have time to do that today?
OK, I'm now going to read back through the day and get some fresh reads and reassess my cases.
Post by: Deus Asmoth on December 03, 2014, 10:42:58 am
Post by: Scripten on December 03, 2014, 02:19:44 pm
Scripten
You said in your response that the two drastically opposing statements towards scintilliant and asmoth are justified because "He's [DA] playing with an antitown mindset".
In what ways do you find Scintilliant's actions ( Bandwagoning, vote-copying, bad reasons, and tunnelling to boot) to be pro-town enough to not only persuade you hes a townie, but to stick your neck out for him repeatedly? Especially considering that several people have found this scummy enough to vote?
Jumping on bandwagons and tunneling aren't necessarily scumtells. They are not pro-town actions, true, but I very rarely see scum tunnel town. Scum don't want themselves to be that visible. As you saw with Comrade Shamrock, bad reasoning isn't necessarily a scum trait. Though, it is more useful to look at than the last two points, as scum need to fabricate their scumreads and can also be relatively transparent about it. Even copying other players' votes and using their reasons can be town actions. What's important to look at is the way in which they seem to be motivated.
Now, also, think about my play this game. Does it make sense for me to actively work toward avoiding Scintillant being lynched? He's fairly easy mislynch fodder, as I've pointed out on several occasions. Defending him puts me in the limelight and casts suspicion on me. As scum, that would be absolute suicide. No, I have a strong townread from his play and I do not want us to lynch someone I think is town.
...In terms of games played, very much so. However, I've read a LOT of mafia games here, so I kinda roughly know what to do :P
Are you SURE you're a newbie, Scint? =.=
This quote might help you see the game from my perspective. Keep in mind that mafia is not a deterministically solvable game. You have to consider the players not as a collection of scum/towntells, but as people with motivations and personalities.
NQT
Hmm, if it's any consolation people often find my playstyle odd or slightly jarring as approach the game in a different way to most.
I got that feeling, hence why I'm not really scumreading you for it right yet. Your scumgame must be absolutely boss, which is a little concerning. :P
Oh I'm definitely in favour of vote count analysis (wasn't aware someone was using an acronym for it). Do you think you'll have time to do that today?
It's a pretty common thing on some other boards that I play on. I'll probably get around to it later in the game day, though I don't find it useful enough to use as a primary tool this early on. I tend to prefer psychological analysis and emotive pushes on other players early on, along with minor questioning. Later, I move to game state analysis and VCA, when logic is a more practical tool than player reactions.
Deus Asmoth
Dorsi, you're voting Scripten because of the difference in his reads on myself and Scintillant and his belief that Scintillant is town. Do you think Scintillant is scummy, and if so why haven't you done much direct communication with him?
I like this question almost enough to unvote you, DA. Dorsi seems to think that Scintillant and I are a scumteam, though I've explained above why that wouldn't make sense, so I needn't repeat it to you. Does this change your read on Scintillant at all?
Post by: Deus Asmoth on December 03, 2014, 05:15:01 pm
Post by: notquitethere on December 03, 2014, 07:12:02 pm
Deus Asmoth:
Active, has the most posts for the day (but not the game). Makes two cases (Scintillant/Scripten). Goes after Scintillant for his weak case on Shamrock and general suspicious behaviour. Tackles with various players with cases on him. Sees WIFOM in Cheetah's responses. After a brief Scripten case, goes back to Scintillant, accusing him of piggy-backing his vote. Spends the rest of the day defending himself and gives a few reads. To follow up: Was Scintillant really piggybacking?
Cheeetah:
Active, but most posts are short. Has made two cases (Krusader/Scintillant). Starts the day with a case against Krusader's poor play, then a lot of short questions and replies. Starts to find Deus suspious and follows up on that, with a bit of poking at Krusader's replacement, 4mask. Finally, jumps on Scintillant for his weak case on Deus. To follow up: Was Scintillant's case weak enough to make them a lynch target?
Scintillant
Had the most posts D1, the least posts D2. Starts off with a weak attack (sans vote) on Deus for being uncertain in a game where only scum have full certainty. Votes Deus mostly for being a vague and uncertain. The vote is weak and functionally sealed the wagon on Deus (who would have been lynched were it not for the extension). Wagoning per se isn't scummy: we need to vote the scum by a majority of votes after all. However, the reasons Scintillant stated in his Deus case were pretty flimsy (considering there were better reasons to be voting Asmoth than those stated). Was this piggy-backing? Not necessarily. Was it weak enough to lynch Scintillant over? Only if no one else made a weaker case.
Scripten
Fairly active. Makes one case against Deus. Starts slowly, with some responses and a vote on Deus for weak play. Gets underway and talks to just Deus Asmoth for most of the Day. It almost borders on tunneling, the majority of posts just conversing with one attackee. Could be scum or particularly mono-focused town.
Dorsidwarf
Moderately active. Makes three cases. Starts the day with some strong questioning, provides reads more than once. Jumps on Deus for being jumpy (hard to tell whether fully justified). Presses 4mask on his predecessor's dubious behaviour. Clarifies when makes mistakes. Switches focus to Scripten on his defence of Scintillant. Nothing too unreasonable here.
Wolf
Slow start but a fair presence when he gets going. Made one case so far, relatively quickly rescinded. Engages with questions and provided reads but then appears to have stopped doing anything (despite being around when the game was extended). Alarm bells are ringing here.
Wolf, do you intend to grace us with a case before the end of the day?
Scripten
It's a pretty common thing on some other boards that I play on.Really?! I'm glad that there's someone else on this forum who sees some value in looking at the damn votes.
Post by: notquitethere on December 03, 2014, 08:31:27 pm
Day has been extended, votecount coming soon.
Ah shoot, according to this we're almost at the end of the day. By my count there's currently a tie between Deus and Scintillant. Scintillant has the most posts in the game over all which would make him (according to strong trends) more likely to be town despite his weak performance today. Deus in my view has performed stronger today but was pretty lousy D1 (what with indecision in making a case etc.) Scripten/Scintillant are on Deus and Deus/Cheetah are on Scintillant. I trust Cheeetah more than I do Scripten at this stage. So... Scintillant it has to be. I hope this isn't some horrible mistake.
Post by: 4maskwolf on December 03, 2014, 08:41:19 pm
My strongest suspicion right now is actually you, notquitethere. You're being even more analytical than you usually are, have made a minimal number of posts today, and changed your vote with only a short time left in the day to someone who you don't even seem suspicious of. And FYI: you being more analytical than usual sets of alarm bells because you're playing conservatively. You're playing exactly how we expect you to play, to the point of ridiculousness, because you always deviate slightly from your usual analytical approach. You posted precious little before the extension, yet I saw you quite often making posts in other areas of the forums, hinting at possible active lurking.
My apologies for not being active, I play when I see something to latch onto.
Post by: 4maskwolf on December 03, 2014, 08:45:11 pm
Post by: notquitethere on December 03, 2014, 09:24:20 pm
Post by: 4maskwolf on December 03, 2014, 09:43:01 pm
Post by: Scripten on December 03, 2014, 10:07:38 pm
(Sorry guys. Wasn't paying attention)
Post by: 4maskwolf on December 03, 2014, 10:11:29 pm
Post by: TheDarkStar on December 03, 2014, 10:22:07 pm
Meanwhile, the guards are on their question stage. They are confused when Scintillant doesn't answer. Then they decide to spend the night reevaluating their approach to getting information out of people.
Votes:
Scripten: Dorsidwarf
Deus Asmoth: Scripten, Scintillant
Dorsidwarf:
4maskwolf:
NotQuiteThere: 4maskwolf,
Scintillant: Deus Asmoth, Cheeetar, NotQuiteThere
Cheeetar:
No Lynch:
Not voting:
Scintillant has been lynched! He was a vanilla townsperson!
Night 2 has begun! Day 3 will begin at 2 AM UTC on Friday, 5 December.
If you posted after the day ended, please edit out anything game-related (starting at reply #340).
Post by: Scintillant on December 04, 2014, 02:17:09 am
As for me getting lynched, it was inevitable ;)
Post by: TheDarkStar on December 06, 2014, 04:28:28 pm
Cheeetar was a Vanilla Townie!
Day 3 has started! It will end whenever.
Votes:
Scripten:
Deus Asmoth:
Dorsidwarf:
4maskwolf:
NotQuiteThere:
No Lynch:
Not voting: Everyone
Post by: Scripten on December 06, 2014, 05:40:50 pm
Everyone else: Got a cop guilty on NQT. Gonna die tonight since I'm outing myself, but NQT's our next lynch. We now need to figure out who his partner is. I'm off to a party for the night, but I'll be back later on to try to help figure things out.
Post by: notquitethere on December 06, 2014, 06:07:11 pm
N1. I investigated Cheetah (as one of the most experienced players I wanted to make sure he was definitely on my side). This is why I went so easy on him D2 (for instance here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=145415.msg5838347#msg5838347)). He came up town.
N2. I investigated Deus Asmoth, as I figured he be the top lynch target today given how he was almost lynched yesterday (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=145415.msg5851269#msg5851269). He came up town as well.
I find it interesting you haven't worked out who you're going to pretend to have investigated on D1.
Everyone else: Scripten has a lot of moxy, I'll give him that, but he's definitely scum.
Post by: notquitethere on December 06, 2014, 06:39:42 pm
Spoiler: Interaction 1 (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Interaction 2 (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Interaction 3 (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Interaction 4 (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Final Interaction (click to show/hide)
Scripten must be a betting man: figuring there was no cop, he decides to go for the quick win and drum up an attack on the player that had just openly signalled they didn't trust him (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=145415.msg5851072#msg5851072). It would have been a good play but I guess he didn't figure on me being the cop.
Post by: 4maskwolf on December 06, 2014, 06:49:34 pm
Oh wow.
Huh.
I'm gonna have to think about this one.
Points for notquitethere being the mafia:
Forced the matter on the lynch yesterday with only an hour or so left.
Claimed reactively to Scripten's claim.
I've found him generally scummier this game than Scripten.
Points for notquitethere being town:
Provides links to back up his claim, dubious as the connection may be.
Provides full documentation of night actions to this point.
Provides reasonable rationales for his choices.
Never claims to have inspected Scripten (which would be a fairly clear scumslip).
Points for Scripten being mafia:
Provided only one of his inspection results.
Provides to back up his claims.
Something in his everyone else note reads poorly to me. It seems like a scum grasping at straws when he knows who the cop is and needs them lynched.
Points for Scripten being town:
Claimed first, although not early enough for it to count for much.
Had a rationale for investigating notquitethere last night, although that rationale was edited out later and I'd like him to provide it again for the record.
Hmmm....
Damn it. I hate being in this position, because if we make the wrong choice the town loses.
Scripten, who did you inspect N1 and why? How do you respond to NQT's accusations? And, perhaps most importantly, who do you believe is the last scum?
PPE: NQT provides links, I'll look over these.
Post by: notquitethere on December 06, 2014, 07:10:01 pm
Dorsidwarf, 4maskwolf: one of you is on my side and if you don't make the right choice we're going to lose this game.
Now I'm looking back on it, Scripten's scumminess is a bit too obvious:
Scripten has only tried to lynch town
He nearly mislynched SBC (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=145415.msg5824582#msg5824582)
He mislynched Shamrock (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=145415.msg5833589#msg5833589)
He tried to mislynch Deus Asmoth (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=145415.msg5851269#msg5851269)
Dubious scum hunting Day 2
His first post was just defensive. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=145415.msg5838766#msg5838766), his second post he throws down an unexplained vote for Deus that he sits on for the entire day (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=145415.msg5839218#msg5839218). He eventually justifies the vote (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=145415.msg5839334#msg5839334) but it's such a weak case to sit on ("harvesting towncred", as if newb townies don't do that all the time) and 10 of his posts were spent exclusively talking to Deus. This kind of tunnel-vision is typical of scum who typically dislike switching their votes and engaging other players lest they draw attention to themselves.
Post by: 4maskwolf on December 06, 2014, 07:54:02 pm
Dorsidwarf, 4maskwolf: one of you is on my side and if you don't make the right choice we're going to lose this game.Watch yourself bud. I'm still not convinced that you're the cop, and you just set off a couple of alarms in my head with this.
Post by: Deus Asmoth on December 06, 2014, 11:43:22 pm
Post by: Scripten on December 07, 2014, 02:40:37 am
That's a bold move Scripten, because I'm the cop.
Well, counter-claiming is the only viable scum play, so no surprise here.
N1. I investigated Cheetah (as one of the most experienced players I wanted to make sure he was definitely on my side). This is why I went so easy on him D2 (for instance here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=145415.msg5838347#msg5838347)). He came up town.
Yeah... that's a pretty flimsy reason. I investigated Scintillant because I had a gut town read on him and wanted to clear up a case of WIFOM for myself. I'll be pulling up quotes from where I defended his inno yesterday. Of course, since I expected you and your scumbuddy to kill me if I let on too much that I was the cop, I wasn't going to claim without a guilty.
Of course you'd pick an easy target for your N1 investigate. Wouldn't do to have a non-confirmed townie for your result, would it?
N2. I investigated Deus Asmoth, as I figured he be the top lynch target today given how he was almost lynched yesterday (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=145415.msg5851269#msg5851269). He came up town as well.
Interesting. I wonder if this is a way to protect your scumbuddy or implicate already suspicious town.
I find it interesting you haven't worked out who you're going to pretend to have investigated on D1.
Like I said above, it was Scintillant. The bottom of my post will have references, now that I'm home and have time to play. Of course, this is entirely for town players, since I don't need to convince you of anything.
4maskwolf
Replies in bold.
NQT as mafia:
Points for notquitethere being the mafia:NQT as town:
Forced the matter on the lynch yesterday with only an hour or so left. This is exceptionally scummy, considering that NQT was "reading" Scintillant as less scummy than Deus for most of the day, then switched before -anyone- had a chance to react. It's exactly why I investigated him last night.
Claimed reactively to Scripten's claim. And of course he did. It's Scum 101 to counterclaim cop in LyLo, because you aren't risking anything and may win the game that day.
I've found him generally scummier this game than Scripten.
Points for notquitethere being town:
Provides links to back up his claim, dubious as the connection may be. His links are terrible, though. Read through them and tell me that they feel like organic reads from a town cop who investigated a fellow townie as opposed to scum that was buddying from the start.
Provides full documentation of night actions to this point. INSANELY easy to fabricate. I literally have two PMs sent to TDS right now, each just a few sentences long, explaining my reasons for investigating and my target. Scum already know the town.
Provides reasonable rationales for his choices. Eh. Not horrible reasons, but I would have expected him to be much more in-depth to fit in with his normal play. This may be as close to panicking as NQT gets.
Never claims to have inspected Scripten (which would be a fairly clear scumslip). Also a very newbie mistake to make, which we all know NQT not to be.
Me as mafia:
Points for Scripten being mafia:Me as town:
Provided only one of his inspection results. I provided my guilty result. I'll be referring back to crumbs based on my inno on Scintillant, but lack of full inspection results at claim isn't indicative of alignment.
Provides to back up his claims. I assume you mean references? I was walking out the door when the day opened. You should understand the constraints of time on making in-depth posts.
Something in his everyone else note reads poorly to me. It seems like a scum grasping at straws when he knows who the cop is and needs them lynched. It's LyLo. Why would scum aim for the cop when they could easily just go for any old townie? Claiming a guilty in LyLo is suicide, since they are instantly outing themselves to the cop instead of leaving the entire town in the dark. (There's always the chance that the cop hasn't inspected them.) When the cop has already claimed a guilty, though, they have to counterclaim or they lose.
Points for Scripten being town:
Claimed first, although not early enough for it to count for much. I literally claimed right after the day opened. If I'd claimed any earlier, I would have be NK'd for sure and we wouldn't have our scum.
Had a rationale for investigating notquitethere last night, although that rationale was edited out later and I'd like him to provide it again for the record. Will do. Is there any way to retrieve old versions of your own posts on the forum? I don't intend to quote it, but it would be nice so as to lay out my thoughts as close as possible to the end of yesterday when I made my choice to investigate NQT.
Scripten, who did you inspect N1 and why? How do you respond to NQT's accusations? And, perhaps most importantly, who do you believe is the last scum?
As I've been mentioning in this post, I inspected Scintillant. As I told TDS in my PM, I was townreading him through D1 and saw him as mislynch fodder for scum. Turns out I was right, he was innocent, and I did my best to defend him through all of D2 (To the point where I was accused multiple times of being his scumbuddy, which made me worry that the scumteam would find me out and NK me.) though I was not able to prevent NQT from lynching him at the very end of the day. A very pertinent thing to note is that while my investigative result was lynched by at least one scum, NQT's claimed result was night killed, which just reeks of convenience. (After all, what if he claimed an innocent result on the town cop, like you brought up.)
As far as his scumbuddy, I'm not sure. I've been leaning toward Deus Asmoth, considering NQT specifically avoided his lynch with a cock-and-bull story about "trusting his townread." That said, NQT is a meticulous player would could be setting up the suspicious DA as a mislynch target come tomorrow to help the mafia win even if NQT gets lynched. I still need to go back and read through interactions in the previous days to nail down a better read, now that I have a confirmed mafia member and only three potential scumbuddies for him.
-Quotes coming soon-
Post by: Scripten on December 07, 2014, 03:45:39 am
(Note: I've cut out parts of these posts that didn't pertain to Scintillant or which broke the board format, but you can still click the links for the full posts.)
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Now, let's start D2, after I've gotten my innocent result back. For this series of posts, I will be concentrating on my interactions with more than just Scintillant, as I have to showcase not only my own actions, but those of NQT and other players.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Now, lastly, I'd like to cover something very important, NQT's final vote on Scintillant.
Day has been extended, votecount coming soon.
Ah shoot, according to this we're almost at the end of the day. By my count there's currently a tie between Deus and Scintillant. Scintillant has the most posts in the game over all which would make him (according to strong trends) more likely to be town despite his weak performance today. Deus in my view has performed stronger today but was pretty lousy D1 (what with indecision in making a case etc.) Scripten/Scintillant are on Deus and Deus/Cheetah are on Scintillant. I trust Cheeetah more than I do Scripten at this stage. So... Scintillant it has to be. I hope this isn't some horrible mistake.
RIGHT at the end of the day, to the point that there were only a few minutes left. (That is, less than an hour left for deliberations.) I'm going to pull this post right apart, because I did so before and had to edit out my post because the day had ended by the time I'd finished writing my response.
First, this:
Quote
Ah shoot, according to this we're almost at the end of the day. By my count there's currently a tie between Deus and Scintillant.
Okay, fine, we're breaking a tie and avoiding a no-lynch. That's null, maybe slightly pro-town. Causing a no-lynch is scummy, but avoiding one isn't particularly indicative, especially if it's a mislynch that puts us into LyLo.
Quote
Scintillant has the most posts in the game over all which would make him (according to strong trends) more likely to be town despite his weak performance today.
Okay, this is NQT as town. He's analytic, forms reads based on voting patterns and relationships, and makes his own choices regarding his vote. He's not much of a bandwagoner.
Quote
Deus in my view has performed stronger today but was pretty lousy D1 (what with indecision in making a case etc.)
Okay... This feels like he's avoiding making a lot of strong statements. Doesn't want to lose a potential buddy come D3? Not super suspicious, but it started setting off red flags in my head.
Quote
I trust Cheeetah more than I do Scripten at this stage.
What? This isn't the town NQT I know at all! NQT does not make snap decisions on lynches based on trusting other players, even if he knows they are town. He votes according to his own scumhunting methods, which are NOT consistent with the vote that follows.
Quote
I hope this isn't some horrible mistake.
And then we get this suspicious little gem. It's almost as if he KNOWS he's lynching town and wants to make it look sanitary for the rest of us. This was precisely the scummy behavior that made my read on NQT shift greatly so that I investigated him last night and got a guilty. When I first posted yesterday in response to this post here, I was hoping that the day still had a little time left so I could get some last words in before night came, in case I died. Funnily enough, in my PM to TDS, I actually mentioned that I was worried about being night killed, since I figured my reaction to NQT's post made my role almost a certainty to scum. Luckily they didn't notice, which I hope to have come back around to bite them in the rear.
Post by: Scripten on December 07, 2014, 01:33:39 pm
You want reads? Here's my reads at the moment, without searching back through the game too much.
Scripten: Intelligent, playing well, and one of the more experienced players to start the game. I haven't played with him enough to know his meta, so I'm going to give him a slight town lean.
Deus Asmoth: Defensive, but given my own play-style I can't really fault him for it (I play my best as town when under pressure). Posts make fairly good sense, and the speed at which people jumped on his lynch when apparently masked_krusader had been playing erratically the day before (and thus deserving attention) is disturbing. Neutral read barring further information.
Dorsidwarf: Made an easy mistake to make in questioning me (asking about my predecessor), otherwise I don't have much to go on. Neutral read.
Cheeetar: I'm still bothered by his comment at the top of page 19, as well as the fact that he's only addressing the person he's voting for when challenged (I didn't even realize he was voting for me prior to the votecount). Slight scum read.
notquitethere: Uses previous games as evidence, which only works to a certain extent (and for pities sake, DON'T tell the scum how to fool you. While I appreciated it as a first-time scum, it's not helpful as town at all). Has made (one?) post today, so I don't have much to go off of. I've never been able to get a good read on him either. Null read.
I forgot someone... time to check the votecount
Scintillant: Null, I haven't really read their posts yet.
I'm leaning town and NQT is null to 4maskwolf.
I WAS AT SCHOOL YOU DOOFUS!!!!! AND THEN AT SWIM PRACTICE!
My strongest suspicion right now is actually you, notquitethere. You're being even more analytical than you usually are, have made a minimal number of posts today, and changed your vote with only a short time left in the day to someone who you don't even seem suspicious of. And FYI: you being more analytical than usual sets of alarm bells because you're playing conservatively. You're playing exactly how we expect you to play, to the point of ridiculousness, because you always deviate slightly from your usual analytical approach. You posted precious little before the extension, yet I saw you quite often making posts in other areas of the forums, hinting at possible active lurking.
My apologies for not being active, I play when I see something to latch onto.
Now NQT is (understandably) being scumread harder than any other player. So far, so good. No evidence at this point that his read on me has changed.
Oh hey the day started and...
Oh wow.
Huh.
I'm gonna have to think about this one.
Points for notquitethere being the mafia:
Forced the matter on the lynch yesterday with only an hour or so left.
Claimed reactively to Scripten's claim.
I've found him generally scummier this game than Scripten.
Points for notquitethere being town:
Provides links to back up his claim, dubious as the connection may be.
Provides full documentation of night actions to this point.
Provides reasonable rationales for his choices.
Never claims to have inspected Scripten (which would be a fairly clear scumslip).
Points for Scripten being mafia:
Provided only one of his inspection results.
Provides to back up his claims.
Something in his everyone else note reads poorly to me. It seems like a scum grasping at straws when he knows who the cop is and needs them lynched.
Points for Scripten being town:
Claimed first, although not early enough for it to count for much.
Had a rationale for investigating notquitethere last night, although that rationale was edited out later and I'd like him to provide it again for the record.
Hmmm....
Damn it. I hate being in this position, because if we make the wrong choice the town loses.
Scripten, who did you inspect N1 and why? How do you respond to NQT's accusations? And, perhaps most importantly, who do you believe is the last scum?
PPE: NQT provides links, I'll look over these.
So here's where things get wonky. So day 3 opens with a moderate town read of 4maskwolf's claiming cop with a guilty inspection result on his strongest scumread at the -very- end of day 2. Despite all this and the way his reads should be progressing, 4maskwolf apparently believes that his town read is scummier than his strongest scum read because... he claimed cop and had a guilty on said scumread? That just doesn't parse and it makes me mighty suspicious.
4maskwolf: Any comment on this? I'm itching to find out your justification, especially now that I have a pretty solid answer on who I think the second scum is.
Post by: 4maskwolf on December 07, 2014, 01:59:30 pm
So here's where things get wonky. So day 3 opens with a moderate town read of 4maskwolf's claiming cop with a guilty inspection result on his strongest scumread at the -very- end of day 2. Despite all this and the way his reads should be progressing, 4maskwolf apparently believes that his town read is scummier than his strongest scum read because... he claimed cop and had a guilty on said scumread? That just doesn't parse and it makes me mighty suspicious.Hi Scripten.
4maskwolf: Any comment on this? I'm itching to find out your justification, especially now that I have a pretty solid answer on who I think the second scum is.
Thank you for all the posts I had to read when I woke up this morning ::).
I didn't do a very good job of explaining my logic in my post where I voted you. As I was writing that post, I was also thinking the whole thing through in my head, so what you have there is more or less a stream-of-consciousness posting. My vote on you was a temporary one, in order to discover more information, though I'll explain why it has become permanent in a moment.
The way in which you posted your information smacked greatly of a scum rolecop who found the actual cop, said "oh hell", and quickly posted a fakeclaim in order to get said cop lynched. This was further reinforced by NQT NOT saying he had inspected you (which would have been a clear scumtell) and instead pointing at two players who it was fairly reasonable to target. This was what drove you further down on my scum-o-meter. Additionally, your attack on NQT (which has now been removed) relied on rather shaky grounds at best, and frankly seemed to be out of irritation that he trusted Cheeetar more than you. And notably, Cheeetar was promptly removed from the game by the scum.
As I read your posts this morning, I was actually more and more convinced that you were telling the truth, right up until the end. Your comments are intelligent, your responses adequate, and your general read towny. And then this happens.
especially now that I have a pretty solid answer on who I think the second scum is.This, my good sir, is OMGUS in the first degree. You're implying that I'm the second scum on the grounds of... what, exactly? That I changed my read on you? Because this happens all the time. That I voted for you? Still not good enough, that's pure OMGUS. This was, in fact, the EXACT tool I was using to see if I could trip you up as scum: I asked you who you thought was the second scum when only NQT and I were voting for you. NQT is too experienced to fall for that trick as a scum player, but I suspected I could get a clear-cut result one way or the other with you. And when I read your post about you not knowing who the second scum was, I was going to unvote you, so I'm glad I continued reading. You did exactly what I suspected you would do as scum: you focused on the other person who voted you and declared them to be the other scum, without providing analyses of the other players still in the game. This, my good sir, is why my vote is here to stay.
On an aside, though, you have played a very good scum game all along. You managed to fool pretty much everybody up until the very end, and that's an impressive accomplishment in a game that had, on day 2, THREE experienced players in the game.
Post by: Scripten on December 07, 2014, 02:42:44 pm
Hi Scripten.
Thank you for all the posts I had to read when I woke up this morning ::).
Hey, just think about where I'm coming from. I wrote them at 2 am, my time, after coming home from a get-together with the other comp sci majors in my department.
I didn't do a very good job of explaining my logic in my post where I voted you. As I was writing that post, I was also thinking the whole thing through in my head, so what you have there is more or less a stream-of-consciousness posting. My vote on you was a temporary one, in order to discover more information, though I'll explain why it has become permanent in a moment.
A pressure vote in LyLo? That makes no sense. You know what would make sense? You're NQT's partner who bused him gently the day before and then magically "switched" reads on me because you realized that your scumbuddy was outed. It's actually a little blatant in how orchestrated it is.
The way in which you posted your information smacked greatly of a scum rolecop who found the actual cop, said "oh hell", and quickly posted a fakeclaim in order to get said cop lynched.
Points for Scripten being town:
Claimed first, although not early enough for it to count for much.
Had a rationale for investigating notquitethere last night, although that rationale was edited out later and I'd like him to provide it again for the record.
Lolololol.
But seriously. You can't have it both ways. Either I'm a town cop with a legitimate reason to inspect scum or I'm scum with a "hastily" fabricated fakeclaim.
This was further reinforced by NQT NOT saying he had inspected you (which would have been a clear scumtell) and instead pointing at two players who it was fairly reasonable to target.
Oh yes. It was pretty reasonable to target Cheeetar, wasn't it? I mean, he did so last night, after all.
You haven't commented on the fact that I actually have solid evidence regarding the innocent I got. Or are NQT's few sentence-long "references" to Cheeetar really better than an entire game's worth of evidence backing up my thought processes and motivations?
This was what drove you further down on my scum-o-meter. Additionally, your attack on NQT (which has now been removed) relied on rather shaky grounds at best, and frankly seemed to be out of irritation that he trusted Cheeetar more than you. And notably, Cheeetar was promptly removed from the game by the scum.
Points for Scripten being town:
Claimed first, although not early enough for it to count for much.
Had a rationale for investigating notquitethere last night, although that rationale was edited out later and I'd like him to provide it again for the record.
Lololol.
So my post was good until it was convenient for it not to be good. Very consistent. You know, you actually make this a little too easy. I thought I was going to have to work to find NQT's partner.
Also, if we're talking about convenient, how about the fact that while the person I had an inno result on was lynched (at day's end, by NQT no less!) under suspicious circumstances, while NQT's supposed "result" was eliminated by scum last night to give them a convenient target to fakeclaim on. Also, considering my post was removed from the game, I find it VERY suspicious (to the point of being poor sportsmanship) that you are making qualitative statements about it, considering it's struck from the record.
As I read your posts this morning, I was actually more and more convinced that you were telling the truth, right up until the end. Your comments are intelligent, your responses adequate, and your general read towny. And then this happens.especially now that I have a pretty solid answer on who I think the second scum is.This, my good sir, is OMGUS in the first degree. You're implying that I'm the second scum on the grounds of... what, exactly? That I changed my read on you? Because this happens all the time. That I voted for you? Still not good enough, that's pure OMGUS. This was, in fact, the EXACT tool I was using to see if I could trip you up as scum: I asked you who you thought was the second scum when only NQT and I were voting for you.
HAHAHAHAHAHA! OMGUS. Oh man, I'm dying. This is kind of perfect. So your vote was totally a reaction test, huh? Didn't have anything to do with the fact that you wanted to build a wagon to get at least one or two townies on it, did it?
Also, I kind of have a fairly long post there detailing exactly what was wrong with your reads and why they are not consistent with a natural town progression.
FFS. OMGUS. Wow. Hahahaha.
NQT is too experienced to fall for that trick as a scum player, but I suspected I could get a clear-cut result one way or the other with you. And when I read your post about you not knowing who the second scum was, I was going to unvote you, so I'm glad I continued reading. You did exactly what I suspected you would do as scum: you focused on the other person who voted you and declared them to be the other scum, without providing analyses of the other players still in the game. This, my good sir, is why my vote is here to stay.
Yes, because reading though the entire game several times to make my case on NQT didn't involved looking at everyone's posts, did it? Good lord, man, do you really expect this to work? You're pushing a vote on a claimed PR over your supposed "strongest scumread." I know you're better than this as town, my friend. ;)
On an aside, though, you have played a very good scum game all along. You managed to fool pretty much everybody up until the very end, and that's an impressive accomplishment in a game that had, on day 2, THREE experienced players in the game.
Pretty sure I haven't fooled anyone, actually. But, thankfully, neither have you nor NQT, seeing as DA's post shows some good townie motivation. (I also have been townreading Dorsidwarf since getting a guilty on NQT.) So yeah, you are really the only logical scumbuddy, both from your behavior and from process of elimination.
Post by: 4maskwolf on December 07, 2014, 03:40:22 pm
Not a pressure vote, a reaction test, and one which you failed and continue to fail. It's fascinating how you accuse me of bussing NQT when you look at it from the other side: if NQT is to be believed, then from my perspective Dorsidwarf is the only possible partner for you, and guess who was voting you at day end, hmm? Dorsidwarf.
I gave that as a point of possibility, not an absolute truth. As I said, stream-of-consciousness posting. I said what I could think of when I thought of it. The fact that you are ignoring this is frankly laughable. As a point of fact, it can be both ways: appearing one way on the surface, but underneath being another. I said that you had good justification for an inspection had you been the town cop.
Your first two sentences are utterly pointless and inane. I did review your evidence, and that was a large part of what made me think you were town until you fell straight into a fairly simple trap I laid for you. But a large amount of towncred is worth nothing for a scum caught in the act.
You are once again missing the point. Your "suspicions" on him gave you a valid reason to "inspect" him last night. Thus, were you a town cop, you had a valid reason to investigate him, which I gave you credit for. However, your "suspicions" were based on some rather poor logic and the only possible explanation for them was that you were pissed NQT believed Cheeetar over you. And you were never going to have to work at all, you know who your scumpartner is, and even were you a town that is a pointless comment. Just because you don't like me making judgements on your post doesn't prevent me from doing so, I read it full well and yelled at you for making it, so I'd remember what it said, thank you very much. Your supposed "target" was lynched D2, so you claiming that NQT's was eliminated last night means nothing in the context of this discussion. Additionally, one way or another the lynch had to fall, a no-lynch is always a bad thing outside of MYLO in games like this, so trying to incriminate NQT for making a decision holds no traction. I find it suspicious that you didn't take the two seconds to tell us who your N1 result was on in your first post of the day, which, to me, makes it seem like you couldn't figure out who to claim for in case things went sour and you got lynched as scum.
It was, in fact, a reaction test, and the fact that you provide not even the slightest scrap of a reason otherwise should show the others how desperate you are. This entire response is pointless and has no logic to it, it's just your attempt at mocking me, at which I would kindly request you desist.
You made no comment as to why the other two were town, which was the point I was making there. I expect my analysis of the situation to have been correct, yes. You haven't played in that many games with me, don't go saying that you know me better as town. What the hell does PR mean? And most importantly, as I've already stated, YOU are now my strongest scumread, just because I haven't made a reads post since the day started doesn't mean my opinions haven't changed. As a point of fact, a reads post is now pointless, since I know exactly who the two scum are.
This last thing is pointless in game context, which granted isn't your fault since mine was a metagame congratulations to you on your play.
Post by: Scripten on December 07, 2014, 04:10:18 pm
I'll go in reverse order of their discovery, because I like to shake things up!
First, let's look at Masked_Krusader, the first of the Masks de La Scum. He starts with some pretty toothless RVS, which isn't a cardinal scumsin in and of itself. He does mention that he intends to be aggressively and actively scumhunting, that scum are likely to win (A little early to brag, my friend!), and asks a question that raises a few eyebrows. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=145415.msg5816192#msg5816192) Note that the mislynch from yesterday, Scintillant, immediately votes him for that post right after parroting the first mislynch's scumread. I found that illuminating and funny.
Pretty sure he isn't lying here, considering he never really interacts with his scumbuddy. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=145415.msg5816987#msg5816987) He's STILL in random questioning mode, even though the game's move on, which is notable on a reread. RVS is scum heaven, because all you have to do i ask and answer easy questions. Look at how noncommital these answers are. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=145415.msg5817953#msg5817953) He's still done no scumhunting to speak of, despite saying that he intended to actively and aggressively hunt scum. Huh. So let's move on... Still nothing here... (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=145415.msg5818977#msg5818977) It's like he's trying to make it look like he's active without actually -doing- anything.
At long last Masked_Krusader DOES something! (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=145415.msg5819708#msg5819708) Though, it's just confronting and voting our jailkeeper. SCUM LEANS! SCUM LEANS FOR EVERYONE! (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=145415.msg5820935#msg5820935) Well, except for me and the newbie I'm townreading and about to investigate. Early-game scum buddying? Probably. For a little while, he doesn't really post anything of substance until he hops onto the Comrade wagon here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=145415.msg5832583#msg5832583), though I can't really scumread him for that specifically, considering myself, Scintillant, and Cheeetar are also on that lynch. Notably, confirmed townie Cheeetar sees Masked_Krusader as scum. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=145415.msg5838311#msg5838311) Our venerable scum!NQT basically ignores him, which is a good sign of scum association. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=145415.msg5838347#msg5838347) At this point, MK goes ahead and replaces out.
So, now that 4maskwolf, part two of the Masks de La Scum, has replaced in, let's start looking at his play. Comes right in with an FoS on Cheeetar. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=145415.msg5840322#msg5840322) (Funny how Cheeetar keeps coming up here.) We have a short interaction before 4maskwolf unvotes Cheeetar and moves on. Comes in with a decent read list, though one that apparently gives a lot of wiggle room. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=145415.msg5841714#msg5841714) I find it a little funny that he mentions his scum game a lot, though that isn't alignment indicative. Notably, he has null reads on everyone, save for a town read on me and a scum read on Cheeetar. (Interesting, that, considering Cheeetar flipped town.) This post is relevant. Note how NQT was on the D2 mislynch wagon and 4maskwolf safely soft-busing his scumbuddy. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=145415.msg5841752#msg5841752) He basically spends the rest of the day avoiding doing anything. A point of interest is that he wants Cheeetar lynched all day long, but barely pushes the wagon, then Cheeetar ends up dead. Finally, there's that one last post (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=145415.msg5851096#msg5851096) on day 2 which I'm imagining he's kicking himself over.
P-Edit: Ah, a reply. I've got to go for a bit, but I'll be back to give analysis on our other guilty scum, NQT! Stay tuned, folks. :D
Post by: Scripten on December 07, 2014, 04:32:11 pm
Scripten, your entire post relies on laughing and mockery to make a point, which is not a town response to being under pressure. You're not in any immediate danger of dying, and if both Deus Asmoth and Dorsidwarf vote with you then you're safe. Which leads me to wonder why you're panicking and making these ridiculous arguments. Each of these is a response to your responses, skipping the first one because it's game-irrelevant.
Laughing and mockery aren't scumtells. That's silly.
Do you think I'm panicking? I wonder why you would think that my reactions are of panic and not because I'm laughing because you're so obvious.
Not a pressure vote, a reaction test, and one which you failed and continue to fail. It's fascinating how you accuse me of bussing NQT when you look at it from the other side: if NQT is to be believed, then from my perspective Dorsidwarf is the only possible partner for you, and guess who was voting you at day end, hmm? Dorsidwarf.
Dorsidwarf was voting me for defending Scintillant, my Day 1 inno result. Thank you try again. :P Hehe, silly scum.
I gave that as a point of possibility, not an absolute truth. As I said, stream-of-consciousness posting. I said what I could think of when I thought of it. The fact that you are ignoring this is frankly laughable. As a point of fact, it can be both ways: appearing one way on the surface, but underneath being another. I said that you had good justification for an inspection had you been the town cop.
So it's whatever you want it to be whenever you want it to be that? Boy, that's convenient. You know, you're liable to hurt yourself if you keep backpedaling that hard.
Your first two sentences are utterly pointless and inane. I did review your evidence, and that was a large part of what made me think you were town until you fell straight into a fairly simple trap I laid for you. But a large amount of towncred is worth nothing for a scum caught in the act.
Because voting for your only stated townread, who's claimed a Power Role, alongside your top scumread isn't insanely scummy? Come on, 4maskwolf, you can give it up now. You wanted to buddy me yesterday, but overnight in the scum topic you all decided that you didn't need to bus NQT after all. Now you have to and you're trying your best to avoid it.
You are once again missing the point. Your "suspicions" on him gave you a valid reason to "inspect" him last night. Thus, were you a town cop, you had a valid reason to investigate him, which I gave you credit for. However, your "suspicions" were based on some rather poor logic and the only possible explanation for them was that you were pissed NQT believed Cheeetar over you.
You do realize that there is no possible way for me to quote the post that you're talking about, right? That is, you are currently doing something that's against the spirit of the game, by misrepping a post that doesn't, in game terms, exist any more.
That said, I was actually railing against the same thing I brought up in my day 3 posts, which was the inconsistency in NQT's read on Scintillant and the incredibly scummy fashion in which he laid his vote at the last minute.
And you were never going to have to work at all, you know who your scumpartner is, and even were you a town that is a pointless comment. Just because you don't like me making judgements on your post doesn't prevent me from doing so, I read it full well and yelled at you for making it, so I'd remember what it said, thank you very much.
Except you're misrepresenting it and, since it doesn't exist any more, it really shouldn't be a topi of conversation at all. If you want to debate those points, then quote my post where I laid everything out again, where it's fair game for those players who may have missed the post you keep bringing up please.
Your supposed "target" was lynched D2, so you claiming that NQT's was eliminated last night means nothing in the context of this discussion.
I have evidence that supports my statements. Reply to that and back up yours. NQT's was killed entirely due to the scumteam. Mine was out of the control of the scumteam and is thus valid.
Additionally, one way or another the lynch had to fall, a no-lynch is always a bad thing outside of MYLO in games like this, so trying to incriminate NQT for making a decision holds no traction. I find it suspicious that you didn't take the two seconds to tell us who your N1 result was on in your first post of the day, which, to me, makes it seem like you couldn't figure out who to claim for in case things went sour and you got lynched as scum.
It wasn't particularly important to anyone when I made my post. Again, I have evidence backing up what I've said. Provide yours and put the metaphorical money where your mouth is.
Back in an hour or two to do that analysis of NQT's play.
Post by: Cheeetar on December 07, 2014, 04:57:54 pm
Post by: Dorsidwarf on December 07, 2014, 05:12:59 pm
BM nightmare.
Lemme read up here.
Post by: Scripten on December 07, 2014, 05:17:01 pm
Oh god, MYLO with opposing cop claims by two of the strongest players.
Whoa whoa. We're in LyLo. We have to lynch today or we lose.
(Still working on that analysis. :P )
Post by: Dorsidwarf on December 07, 2014, 05:45:06 pm
Fro, my own point of view, there are three possible scumteams. One is NQT plus 4mask, amother is NQT plus DA, and the other is Scripten plus 4mask.
4mask seems, as Scripten said, to have suddenly and weirdly changed around, then because he was named as a secondary scumpick, flipped out and decided that was 100% OMGUS? That looks like a totally justified statement from Scripten to me, because at LyLo you turned for no apparent reason on your townread and sided with the counterclaiming top scumpick
NQT seems to have suddenly hopped off his metanalysis high horse, and justified himself via "Gut feeling", which I don't feel matches any other play of his I've ever, ever, ever seen.
DA needs to comment more. Lurkin' on LyLo ain't no lark.
To summarise:
All players survive sans NQT have been scumreads and or votes of mine, and NQT is acting funny to boot.
There are two scenarios to me which finger NQT as the scum out of the two, and only one that points to Scripten.
Posting NOW to avoid Internet limit finishing on phone.
Post by: Dorsidwarf on December 07, 2014, 05:52:15 pm
The Scripten + 4mask scenario makes no sense either. Why turn on his buddy suddenly? They could probbably have lynched NQT pretty easy if they really were both scum.
As a result, I'm voting NQT as the scum for playing atypically, hammily apologising as he hammers in on a town minutes before day end, and ultimately due to analysis of the situation and possible situations leaving him being lying scum as the only reasonable interpretation.
Post by: Scripten on December 07, 2014, 06:00:12 pm
So, we start with a what is to become the birdsong of this player, the promise of future posts (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=145415.msg5816036#msg5816036) to stand in for actual activity. :P To be fair, he did post the next RL day, with a fairly long but otherwise relatively empty post. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=145415.msg5817855#msg5817855) It's not terrible in and of itself, though, which is how he managed to sneak under the radar so well. There are some good points but he never follows any of them up later on. Again, I wasn't scumreading him for this post (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=145415.msg5819883#msg5819883), since it's all fairly decent, harmless points. Note how little attention he draws to himself. No one can say that he's ever really in the limelight. Votes to extend and promises posts again. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=145415.msg5822381#msg5822381) However, this time he can't deliver (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=145415.msg5824369#msg5824369) allegedly due to RL issues. Fair enough. However, the in-game day doesn't end until roughly a week(!) later. That's troublesome, though he is replaced and we can begin focusing on NQT.
So here's some classic NQT analysis. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=145415.msg5838347#msg5838347) (It's almost a parody, it's so classic, in fact.) "Scumreads" Scintillant, a townie I knew was innocent, and tries to set up a mislynch with passive pushes that are meant to lead town. He has barely a sentence on Masked_Krusader, who is his scumbuddy. Why should he have more? He doesn't want to bring him into the limelight. Then we have this nugget of gold. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=145415.msg5838858#msg5838858) NQT claims that he sees newbie players mislynched all the time, and then brings it up the same day he mislynches Scintillant with blatant scummery. Talk about audacity, eh?
Here's where things get even more interesting. NQT bring up some scummy stuff that Deus Asmoth has done and starts a wagon that he doesn't want to end the day on. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=145415.msg5838927#msg5838927) Considering DA's behavior doesn't really change throughout the day, this is plenty suspicious. Then he's busy for a while (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=145415.msg5841015#msg5841015) so we don't see much of him. He comes back to continue to subtly manipulate other players' reads on Scintillant (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=145415.msg5844273#msg5844273) while accusing him of doing the same thing, to push Deus Asmoth just a little more with a blatant scumread, and to "find it interesting" that I'm "reading so much" into his posts. It's like he's implying that I'm scum for analyzing his behavior; that is, scumhunting is scummy to NQT this game. He's too busy to play for a little bit. Eh okay. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=145415.msg5849608#msg5849608)
Then he finally shows up at the VERY end of the day, scumreading Deus Asmoth, finds issue with Cheeetar's reason for voting Scintillant(Apparently not enough of an issue to keep him from voting him!), soft-defends Scintillant for doing newbie things(Again, not enough of an issue so as to avoid mislynching him!), apparently scumreads me for scumhunting him and Deus Asmoth(You know, the wagon he started!), and then apparently scumreads 4maskwolf. Then there's this lovely little nugget (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=145415.msg5851072#msg5851072) which I have already dug through earlier on.
Phew.
Post by: Deus Asmoth on December 07, 2014, 08:47:29 pm
NQT, what was your reason for investigating Cheeetar in the first night instead of one of the people who were acting suspiciously day one, like Crusader?
Post by: Scripten on December 08, 2014, 02:29:44 pm
Though, if 4maskwolf and NQT remain totally silent for the remainder of the game, it's pretty safe to say that they've been caught.
Post by: Deus Asmoth on December 08, 2014, 02:43:30 pm
Post by: Dorsidwarf on December 08, 2014, 05:15:40 pm
Post by: Scripten on December 08, 2014, 05:34:33 pm
DA, can you explain why townclaiming you was clearly NQT "Trying to set you up for the final mislynch"? I really don't follow your reasoning there.
Because I appeared to be very suspicious of DA throughout Day 2, so if NQT buddied up to him, it might be thought that DA was NQT's scumbuddy. Therefore, once we have NQT flip, the strategy could have saved NQT's actual scumbuddy on LyLo round 2 on Day 4.
Post by: Dorsidwarf on December 08, 2014, 05:35:57 pm
Post by: Deus Asmoth on December 08, 2014, 05:49:54 pm
DA, can you explain why townclaiming you was clearly NQT "Trying to set you up for the final mislynch"? I really don't follow your reasoning there.
Eh yeah, what Scripten said essentially. There's no point in NQT saying that his partner is town if he's scum, it just puts a bullseye on them if he gets lynched today. My feeling on NQT is that he changed his mind from me to Scintillant on day two because Scintillant would have been a harder lynch today. NQT saying I'm town is an insurance policy for if he dies today because it makes me seem scummier tomorrow.
Post by: Scripten on December 08, 2014, 06:09:24 pm
Thanks for clarifying, even if you answered a question asked to a different player :/
Oh crud. Sorry, I was just skimming the board real quick and missed that you had addressed DA specifically.
Post by: notquitethere on December 08, 2014, 09:32:09 pm
NQT, there's one thing I don't like about your case. Scripten, as you pointed out, was trying to get SBC lynched day one. When he failed to do that, SBC went on to get murdered on the first night. Isn't that a terribly stupid thing for Scripten to do as scum?That's WIFOM and you know it. Scum doing things that you wouldn't think scum should do is what scum should do. Come on, you're better than this.
I'm going to have to vote NQT. I can't give an in depth analysis at the moment, but the short form is that his behaviour just seems off. [1]He was questioning Cheeetar's reasoning for voting on Scintillant until an hour before day's end, then voted for Scin over me because of the same reasoning he was questioning an hour before. [2] The flip flop on the vote and him declaring me to be town today make me think he was trying to set me up for the final mislynch, since leaving Scin alive would have had Scripten still defending him.1. I was trying to press my town ally to make the best damn case he could make. I wanted to be confident he was playing at his best so as to maximise the chance of not mislynching. 2. I switched my votes because of a genuine doubt over you being scum, and although I wasn't 100% happy with a Scint lynch, it was the better of the two options. Changing votes is always the right thing to do if you have legitimate doubts. Being afraid of putting yourself in the firing line and keeping quiet is the worst thing to do. 3. Mostly, it was this game (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=140896.msg5693413#msg5693413). I knew Cheetar was a formidable opponent if he was playing as scum. I had just replaced in, it was night time and I didn't personally have that much time. I had a read through the thread and although other people had found folk scummy, they were all people likely to be lynched by town anyhow. Much better to pick someone unsuspected but dangerous: best case, he would have been scum and then I could get him lynched; worst case and he's town (as happened), I could be sure of having a competent town ally. I thought about investigating Krusader but figured that so many people found him scummy he'd like as not be lynched without my investigation, whereas a scum-cheetar would almost certainly never be lynched. Scripten claims to have made a N1 pick based on his "gut"-- do you find that a more compelling reason?
[3]NQT, what was your reason for investigating Cheeetar in the first night instead of one of the people who were acting suspiciously day one, like Crusader?
Scripten
1.Yeah... that's a pretty flimsy reason. 2I investigated Scintillant because I had a gut town read on him and wanted to clear up a case of WIFOM for myself. I'll be pulling up quotes from where I defended his inno yesterday. Of course, since I expected you and your scumbuddy to kill me if I let on too much that I was the cop, I wasn't going to claim without a guilty.1. Investigating the most competent and experienced player is a flimsy reason to investigate? Sorry what? I saw how Cheetar, as scum, won Wuba's last game; I didn't want him as a foe. 2. Talk about flimsy reasons! You had a 'gut' feeling. You expect people to buy that? 3. Completely ignoring the fact that the second person I got a town read on was still alive, but sure, go ahead and spread transparent lies.
Of course you'd pick an easy target for your N1 investigate. 3.Wouldn't do to have a non-confirmed townie for your result, would it?
RIGHT at the end of the day, to the point that there were only a few minutes left. (That is, less than an hour left for deliberations.) I'm going to pull this post right apart, because I did so before and had to edit out my post because the day had ended by the time I'd finished writing my response.So you admit my actions weren't scummy. That's good, because they weren't.
First, this:QuoteAh shoot, according to this we're almost at the end of the day. By my count there's currently a tie between Deus and Scintillant.
Okay, fine, we're breaking a tie and avoiding a no-lynch. That's null, maybe slightly pro-town. Causing a no-lynch is scummy, but avoiding one isn't particularly indicative, especially if it's a mislynch that puts us into LyLo.
I knew Cheetar was town, and my different methods were given mixed indications for Deus/Scintillant (no mystery, now, as it turns out they're both town).QuoteI trust Cheeetah more than I do Scripten at this stage.
What? This isn't the town NQT I know at all! NQT does not make snap decisions on lynches based on trusting other players, even if he knows they are town. He votes according to his own scumhunting methods, which are NOT consistent with the vote that follows.
I often air last minute worries and um and ah when I'm breaking a tie. See this game for instance, where I break a tie and lynch scum but with extreme reticence. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=122827.msg4095144#msg4095144)QuoteI hope this isn't some horrible mistake.
And then we get this suspicious little gem. It's almost as if he KNOWS he's lynching town and wants to make it look sanitary for the rest of us. This was precisely the scummy behavior that made my read on NQT shift greatly so that I investigated him last night and got a guilty. When I first posted yesterday in response to this post here, I was hoping that the day still had a little time left so I could get some last words in before night came, in case I died. Funnily enough, in my PM to TDS, I actually mentioned that I was worried about being night killed, since I figured my reaction to NQT's post made my role almost a certainty to scum. Luckily they didn't notice, which I hope to have come back around to bite them in the rear.
Alright, so here's that look at the NQT slot I promised. We'll start with RangerCado, which shouldn't be too hard considering his lack of content.I obviously can't speak for Ranger's play but I can respond to your accusations about me:
So here's some classic NQT analysis. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=145415.msg5838347#msg5838347) (It's almost a parody, it's so classic, in fact.) "Scumreads" Scintillant, a townie I knew was innocent, and tries to set up a mislynch with passive pushes that are meant to lead town. He has barely a sentence on Masked_Krusader, who is his scumbuddy. Why should he have more? He doesn't want to bring him into the limelight. Then we have this nugget of gold. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=145415.msg5838858#msg5838858) NQT claims that he sees newbie players mislynched all the time, and then brings it up the same day he mislynches Scintillant with blatant scummery. Talk about audacity, eh?This is nonsense. My analysis was solid, some of the best I've done. I'm pretty sure my conclusions about the voting patterns will draw out, though can't say for certain until we lynch you and your scumbuddy (Dwarf is it?). And further, do you deny that newbie players mislynch one another all the time? Hasn't this very fact been born out so far this game?
Here's where things get even more interesting. NQT bring up some scummy stuff that Deus Asmoth has done and starts a wagon that he doesn't want to end the day on. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=145415.msg5838927#msg5838927) Considering DA's behavior doesn't really change throughout the day, this is plenty suspicious. Then he's busy for a while (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=145415.msg5841015#msg5841015) so we don't see much of him. He comes back to continue to subtly manipulate other players' reads on Scintillant (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=145415.msg5844273#msg5844273) while accusing him of doing the same thing, to push Deus Asmoth just a little more with a blatant scumread, and to "find it interesting" that I'm "reading so much" into his posts. It's like he's implying that I'm scum for analyzing his behavior; that is, scumhunting is scummy to NQT this game. He's too busy to play for a little bit. Eh okay. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=145415.msg5849608#msg5849608)This is ironic. I found your baseless insinuations scummy. Over-reading isn't scumhunting. And you say I was subtly manipulating, but you can't say who was supposed to have been taken in by this.
Then he finally shows up at the VERY end of the day, scumreading Deus Asmoth, finds issue with Cheeetar's reason for voting Scintillant(Apparently not enough of an issue to keep him from voting him!), soft-defends Scintillant for doing newbie things(Again, not enough of an issue so as to avoid mislynching him!), apparently scumreads me for scumhunting him and Deus Asmoth(You know, the wagon he started!), and then apparently scumreads 4maskwolf. Then there's this lovely little nugget (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=145415.msg5851072#msg5851072) which I have already dug through earlier on.Again this is nonsense. Changing your mind as you gain new insights is not scummy; whereas sitting on the same case all day like you did is.
Dorsidwarf
NQT seems to have suddenly hopped off his metanalysis high horse, and justified himself via "Gut feeling", which I don't feel matches any other play of his I've ever, ever, ever seen.Sorry where did I mention anything about gut feeling? Back up your bullshit please.
The Scripten + 4mask scenario makes no sense either. Why turn on his buddy suddenly? They could probbably have lynched NQT pretty easy if they really were both scum.This is a bit WIFOMY. Scum often bus one another to throw up smokescreens.
As a result, I'm voting NQT as the scum for playing atypically, hammily apologising as he hammers in on a town minutes before day end, and ultimately due to analysis of the situation and possible situations leaving him being lying scum as the only reasonable interpretation.Please explain how I was playing atypically? The analysis was muddied so I favoured the pick from someone I knew wasn't scum. It was a bad idea, as it happened, but I'm not immune to them. Every game I make some kind of mistake or other. I always apologise when there's a danger of mislynching (see my response to Scripten for a link to another game where a similar situation occurred). I think either you're scum or you're underestimating how dedicated experienced players like Scripten and 4mask are to distancing tactics.
Post by: Deus Asmoth on December 09, 2014, 12:28:01 am
Post by: Dorsidwarf on December 09, 2014, 02:33:08 am
Firstly, upon reading back, it turns out you were referring to cheetar, your claimed inspection, when you said you trusted " the opinion of my fellow town." My apologies for misinterpreting that, and badly. I might also have gotten you mixed up slightly with Scripten's reference to gut feeling.
In response to "You have no idea how good experienced players are at distancing the self as scum": I think that basically throwing away an easy, easy win with justifiable votes against a reactive cop claim that 4mask was previously voting, siding with their 'strongest scumread' against their public townread While at LyLo?
Can you explain why you think an insane, dangerous, pointless, unnecessary gambit like that accurately represents the actions of two (three, counting their IC) "experienced" scum players?
Additionally, in your last sentence you manage to really outdo yourself by insinuating that Scripten, 4mask and me are somehow scum all at once? Saying that I'm scum because I don't think wilfully sabotaging their own easily won game is likely? Can you please clarify that statement, in case I've misunderstood?
Post by: Scripten on December 09, 2014, 02:39:44 am
I'm going to have to vote NQT. I can't give an in depth analysis at the moment, but the short form is that his behaviour just seems off. [1]He was questioning Cheeetar's reasoning for voting on Scintillant until an hour before day's end, then voted for Scin over me because of the same reasoning he was questioning an hour before. [2] The flip flop on the vote and him declaring me to be town today make me think he was trying to set me up for the final mislynch, since leaving Scin alive would have had Scripten still defending him.1. I was trying to press my town ally to make the best damn case he could make. I wanted to be confident he was playing at his best so as to maximise the chance of not mislynching.
[3]NQT, what was your reason for investigating Cheeetar in the first night instead of one of the people who were acting suspiciously day one, like Crusader?
This is hilarious bad. I realize our newbie players may not be quite as entertained as I am, but yeah... Basically, NQT is saying that he was foregoing scumhunting to focus on confirmed town. Why? To make sure that this player was scumhunting well.
But he claims to have investigated Cheeetar due to Cheeetar's experience. Wat?
If Cheeetar was so experienced, then why did you see the need to coach him, NQT?
2. I switched my votes because of a genuine doubt over you being scum, and although I wasn't 100% happy with a Scint lynch, it was the better of the two options. Changing votes is always the right thing to do if you have legitimate doubts. Being afraid of putting yourself in the firing line and keeping quiet is the worst thing to do.
Doubts you apparently didn't decide to air until... actually, you never aired these doubts.
Your last post before the series in which you mislynched Scintillant. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=145415.msg5844273#msg5844273) That doesn't look like doubt to me. In fact, right before you vote Scintillant, you wrote this post here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=145415.msg5850935#msg5850935). Can you show me the doubt you claim you had? Because I'm seeing less doubt here than in my own play, and I still found Deus Asmoth the best place for my vote! Thankfully, you showed that I was wrong to be voting him -and- outed your entire team. I consider that a pretty awesome situation.
3. Mostly, it was this game (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=140896.msg5693413#msg5693413). I knew Cheetar was a formidable opponent if he was playing as scum. I had just replaced in, it was night time and I didn't personally have that much time.
So... you investigated a player not on their actions in this game but on shaky metagame analysis? The game you're posting was a chaotic role mania game where the majority of the gameplay was happening off-screen! How in the world can you consider that good, let alone better, justification?
I had a read through the thread and although other people had found folk scummy, they were all people likely to be lynched by town anyhow. Much better to pick someone unsuspected but dangerous: best case, he would have been scum and then I could get him lynched; worst case and he's town (as happened), I could be sure of having a competent town ally. I thought about investigating Krusader but figured that so many people found him scummy he'd like as not be lynched without my investigation, whereas a scum-cheetar would almost certainly never be lynched. Scripten claims to have made a N1 pick based on his "gut"-- do you find that a more compelling reason?
Oooh, so this time you had time to read through the thread? I thought you just said that there wasn't much time so you had to rely on metagame analysis?
It's like you're just building a web of your own lies that you can't even keep consistent from sentence to sentence or something. ;)
1. Investigating the most competent and experienced player is a flimsy reason to investigate? Sorry what? I saw how Cheetar, as scum, won Wuba's last game; I didn't want him as a foe. 2. Talk about flimsy reasons! You had a 'gut' feeling. You expect people to buy that? 3. Completely ignoring the fact that the second person I got a town read on was still alive, but sure, go ahead and spread transparent lies.
Again, totally different game, with a totally different gamestate. You're literally just appealing to your accomplishment as a veteran mafia player here, by saying that your supposed gut read is more valid than my gut read. Hypocrite.
By the way, you've ignored the elephant in the room. If you were going by experience and likelihood to be lynched, why didn't you investigate me on Night 2? Sure, I'm not an IC, but if you had been following the game, you would have seen references to my experience and the way in which other players were reacting to it. The closest I ever came to being lynched was when Dorsidwarf accused me and Scintillant of being scumbuddies, which was invalidated by Scint's town flip. And it's not like you weren't pretending to be suspicious of me.
So please, elucidate us.
So you admit my actions weren't scummy. That's good, because they weren't.
I said that avoiding a no-lynch was a null action, not that your actions weren't scummy as all hell. They totally were, especially for a player that purports to play from such a high-minded logical stance. What you're selling here is that town!NQT came into the game at the very end of the day, voted a player with no wagon on them, then came back mere minutes before day's end to purportedly break a tie, voting for a player because you had a "trusted town read" that you apparently didn't find competent enough to play without your "coaching" earlier in the day. That just doesn't work.
I knew Cheetar was town, and my different methods were given mixed indications for Deus/Scintillant (no mystery, now, as it turns out they're both town).
Yeah... the only difference between Scintillant and Deus Asmoth you knew about was that you thought you could push me into lynching DA, but not Scintillant. Your actions were blatant, sir. Nobody's fooled.
I often air last minute worries and um and ah when I'm breaking a tie. See this game for instance, where I break a tie and lynch scum but with extreme reticence. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=122827.msg4095144#msg4095144)
You mean the game in which you were a newbie and were deferring to the two ICs?
Because that's totally relevant to your play now.
(In case anyone is wondering, that is massive sarcasm.)
This is nonsense. My analysis was solid, some of the best I've done. I'm pretty sure my conclusions about the voting patterns will draw out, though can't say for certain until we lynch you and your scumbuddy (Dwarf is it?).
*BZZZT* I'm sorry, that's not the answer we're looking for.
Thank you for your qualitative opinion on your own play. Johnny, tell him what's he's won!
Spoiler: "A speedy drop and a sudden stop!" (click to show/hide)
;)
And further, do you deny that newbie players mislynch one another all the time? Hasn't this very fact been born out so far this game?
Since when are you a newbie?
This is ironic. I found your baseless insinuations scummy. Over-reading isn't scumhunting. And you say I was subtly manipulating, but you can't say who was supposed to have been taken in by this.
Tsk tsk. Over-reading, is it? Here, let me pull up a handy dandy quote (I like having evidence for my claims, have you noticed?) and we can let our fellows make their own conclusions:
NQT:Scintillant offers a number of reasons to vote Shamrock and backs them up in reference to actual posts. This case is formed in reaction to Scripten's questioning, and the vote on Shamrock is buried in the response rather than directed at their target. A great way to to get inexperienced players mislynched is to not directly question them when you're trying to lynch them.What exactly are you implying here? Are you implying that I was trying to get Comrade mislynched? You seem to be saying at first that my case against Comrade was good, but then go into observations about it and describe a possible scumtell. How do those three things relate?
Poor Scintillant must have been very scummy to you, NQT. I mean, he thought you were making implications and being subtly manipulative. Tell me, what did that get him?
Oh right. You mislynched him.
Oh, and as for who was supposed to be taken in by your implications, I'm pretty sure scum can't lynch town without at least one townie joining them on a wagon. It's almost as if you pushed that Scintillant was scummy and didn't hop on the wagon until late in the day, when it had already formed without your help, and guaranteed the mislynch of a most inconvenient player. Or maybe that's exactly what happened.
Again this is nonsense. Changing your mind as you gain new insights is not scummy; whereas sitting on the same case all day like you did is.
Ah, yes, because nailing in a mislynch mere minutes before the end of the day isn't scummy, silly me! How silly I am to forget that actually scumhunting instead of being a manipulative, underhanded scummer is absolutely the worst way to play as town!
What would we do without your masterful insight, NQT?
Deus Asmoth
Scripten, why did you investigate NQT last night anyway? The last minute vote change was suspicious, but you were certain I was scum for the majority of day 2. Why not check if you were right?
This is pertinent. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=145415.msg5848995#msg5848995) I was not sure that you were scum by day's end, though, until NQT showed up with his scummy move onto the Scint wagon, I didn't have any better options for a lynch. Seeing NQT, an experienced player, do something so blatant made me massively suspicious. Sadly, the post I wrote with regard to that was struck from the record, but I still have my investigative result on him. To be totally honest, NQT's lynch choice was not terrible scum play, considering he probably thought Cheeetar was the cop, due to the slightly quieter way he was playing. If he'd realized I was the cop, he definitely would not have lynched the guy I was defending all day in such an audacious and scum-sided manner.
Post by: Deus Asmoth on December 09, 2014, 06:36:16 pm
Scripten, why are you acting so agitated? NQT has the most votes on him, but I just get the feeling that you're worried about something.
Post by: Scripten on December 09, 2014, 06:46:06 pm
Scripten, why are you acting so agitated? NQT has the most votes on him, but I just get the feeling that you're worried about something.
I tend to play this way in general. It's how I garner a lot of information from other players.
There's also the fact that I'd really like town to win the game. Scum still have two days to work, while I have the rest of today before I am guaranteed to die. Outed cops have a pretty short lifespan, you see. :P I'm just trying to be as thorough as I possibly can while I have the chance.
Post by: Deus Asmoth on December 09, 2014, 06:47:35 pm
Post by: Scripten on December 09, 2014, 07:22:36 pm
To clarify, Scripten is answering NQT's points in his own posts, but he also seems to be trying to make the points he's answering seem ridiculous, as though he doesn't want other people considering them.
The majority of his points are ridiculous. You're free to make your own conclusions from his posts, as well. Just because I say something doesn't mean that the rest of the town can't also do their own independent scumhunting. Posts are permanent, after all.
Post by: TheDarkStar on December 10, 2014, 10:17:38 pm
Starting now, the day ends if the votecount doesn't change in 24 hours or people vote to shorten.
Post by: Scripten on December 10, 2014, 11:13:42 pm
Post by: notquitethere on December 11, 2014, 06:59:18 am
Sorry guys, I'm really busy and won't be in front of a computer until Sunday. As such, extend.
Town are forever losing these games and I'd like it not to happen again-- I really counsel the two of you on my side to look back at Scripten's cases: you'll see there's no way he's a cop. You're making a terrible mistake here. Sorry I don't have time to address outstanding questions.
Post by: Deus Asmoth on December 11, 2014, 09:10:06 am
Post by: Scripten on December 11, 2014, 01:42:58 pm
Pfp.
Sorry guys, I'm really busy and won't be in front of a computer until Sunday. As such, extend.
Town are forever losing these games and I'd like it not to happen again-- I really counsel the two of you on my side to look back at Scripten's cases: you'll see there's no way he's a cop. You're making a terrible mistake here. Sorry I don't have time to address outstanding questions.
Appeal to emotion. Classic scum strategy.
Tell me what you think of 4maskwolf this game?
Scripten, Dorsi hasn't been posting much either. Couldn't he just be bussing NQT? (Though I realise that this is unlikely considering there's only one vote in the difference at the moment)
This is a possibility, true. I consider it a little less unlikely due to the way 4maskwolf and Dorsi have been playing all game. Dorsi's play reads very town to me, while our venerable Super Mask Bros. have pretty cautious, scum-consistent play. Of course, if you do see something, feel free to bring it up. Even if you're wrong, being pro-information is being pro-town.
Post by: Dorsidwarf on December 11, 2014, 05:38:15 pm
The game seems to have stagnated, in fact. There's very little questioning and a lot of statements, so to get the ball rolling... (and information flowing)
4maskwolf
How, in a maximum of two sentences, would you describe your reasoning for jumping off your scumpick and onto your town pick as soon as they accuse each other of mutual cop-faking?
Because your posts on the matter have been exceedingly wordy, and I'm interested to know whether you actually have a defining reason, or whether you've just pulled your arguments out of hot air.
Deus Asmoth
As someone vouched for by NotQuiteThere, how do you feel about his impending lynch? Do you feel that you have to work extra-hard over this day to make up for being vouched by a suspicious/scum player? The next?
Post by: 4maskwolf on December 11, 2014, 08:56:12 pm
To keep the day from ending on a technicality before I can make a legit post, unvote. I'll get to this... sometime, I'm hellishly busy right now.
Post by: Deus Asmoth on December 11, 2014, 11:10:34 pm
Post by: Dorsidwarf on December 12, 2014, 01:33:44 am
Post by: Deus Asmoth on December 12, 2014, 09:46:46 am
Post by: Deus Asmoth on December 13, 2014, 06:32:42 pm
Post by: TheDarkStar on December 13, 2014, 07:14:39 pm
Post by: 4maskwolf on December 14, 2014, 10:12:33 am
Mask, why did you go for Scripten over NQT initially? Your reasoning seems to have them pretty even in your suspicions and you've said yourself that you were suspicious of NQT for most of the game.I probably should have attached to my reasoning how much weight I gave each piece. While there wasn't much weight to either of their town records, Scripten's claim rubbed me to wrong way and struck me as more of a fakeclaim than NQT's. As such, I voted him as a reaction test to see if I could get more information. Additionally, he was the one the reaction test was more likely to work on.
Hey guys! Sorry for not being so active. Mafias a brain drainer, and I had a few important tests.And my posts being exceedingly wordy is bad why...?
The game seems to have stagnated, in fact. There's very little questioning and a lot of statements, so to get the ball rolling... (and information flowing)
4maskwolf
How, in a maximum of two sentences, would you describe your reasoning for jumping off your scumpick and onto your town pick as soon as they accuse each other of mutual cop-faking?
Because your posts on the matter have been exceedingly wordy, and I'm interested to know whether you actually have a defining reason, or whether you've just pulled your arguments out of hot air.
I've stated it already: Reaction test for further information and claim seeming more suspicious. One sentence.
extend
NQT: I would like to hear your responses to Scripten's accusations.
Scripten: Why then, in your words now, did you vote for NQT at the end of D2, after time had ended. I'd like to hear your rationale again.
Post by: Scripten on December 14, 2014, 11:11:54 am
Scripten: Why then, in your words now, did you vote for NQT at the end of D2, after time had ended. I'd like to hear your rationale again.
I wasn't actually aware that the time had gone over the end of the day. I was hoping that I had just fit my post in, since I expected to die overnight due to my suspicions.
Post by: 4maskwolf on December 14, 2014, 11:19:32 am
Okay. That wasn't my question. My question was for you to repeat your rationale for the vote.Scripten: Why then, in your words now, did you vote for NQT at the end of D2, after time had ended. I'd like to hear your rationale again.
I wasn't actually aware that the time had gone over the end of the day. I was hoping that I had just fit my post in, since I expected to die overnight due to my suspicions.
Post by: Scripten on December 14, 2014, 12:36:14 pm
Okay. That wasn't my question. My question was for you to repeat your rationale for the vote.Scripten: Why then, in your words now, did you vote for NQT at the end of D2, after time had ended. I'd like to hear your rationale again.
I wasn't actually aware that the time had gone over the end of the day. I was hoping that I had just fit my post in, since I expected to die overnight due to my suspicions.
His vote for Scintillant was inconsistent with his analyses throughout the day, came at a terribly suspicious time of the game day that left no time for town deliberation, was predicated on supposed trust in another player (something entirely outside of NQT's town game meta as he prides himself on playing differently than other players here), and he ended his post with an apology, which does not fit his character nor his experience.
I've mentioned all this before. Why are you asking me to repeat myself?
Post by: 4maskwolf on December 14, 2014, 11:41:50 pm
extend
Post by: Scripten on December 15, 2014, 01:32:18 pm
I have a feeling NQT and 4maskwolf are just trying to wear down the town, and NQT's flip would get everyone reinvigorated.
4maskwolf: You say you're trying to "get to the bottom of the issue." Do you have anything for us or are you just stalling like I'm surmising?
Post by: Dorsidwarf on December 15, 2014, 04:46:57 pm
Post by: Scripten on December 15, 2014, 05:06:01 pm
On the one hand, I'm hesitant to extend because people don't really seem to be going anywhere at all with the time they already have, but on the other hand, I can't really argue with having more discussion time.
Extending is normally a pro-town action. More discussion is oftentimes good, though eventually you start running into walls of apathy as we are right now. Sometimes the best course of action for getting the game going is to get a flip. That's been my motivation for not extending, though I have no real stake in how long the day goes.
Post by: Dorsidwarf on December 15, 2014, 05:09:55 pm
Post by: TheDarkStar on December 15, 2014, 05:33:21 pm
Post by: Scripten on December 15, 2014, 05:38:31 pm
Good luck, town.
Post by: Deus Asmoth on December 15, 2014, 05:40:34 pm
Post by: TheDarkStar on December 15, 2014, 05:55:56 pm
Post by: Persus13 on December 15, 2014, 07:26:06 pm
Dead IC out.
Post by: 4maskwolf on December 15, 2014, 09:31:48 pm
4maskwolf: You say you're trying to "get to the bottom of the issue." Do you have anything for us or are you just stalling like I'm surmising?Do I have anything for you...
Do I really need to go into my rant of how busy I am again?
I have like 10 minutes a weekday to check the forums, although the fact that I didn't pay hugely much attention on the weekend is nobody's fault but my own.
Post by: TheDarkStar on December 15, 2014, 09:39:53 pm
Post by: TheDarkStar on December 15, 2014, 10:06:01 pm
NQT says "I saw Scripten hack the database last night. He is an alien!"
People start taking sides. Eventually, Dues Asmoth and Dorsidwarf grab hold of NotQuiteThere and drag him over to the execution room. After they leave, Scripten presses a button. The room is immediately filled with fire and NQT is vaporized - except, that is, for his alien robot implants! NQT is an alien (Mafia Goon)! You adjourn the meeting and decide to meet again the next day.
Votes:
Scripten: NotQuiteThere
Deus Asmoth:
Dorsidwarf:
4maskwolf:
NotQuiteThere: Deus Asmoth, Dorsidwarf, Scripten
No lynch:
No vote: 4maskwolf
Night 3 has started! It will end about 23 hours from now.
Post by: notquitethere on December 15, 2014, 10:09:27 pm
Post by: TheDarkStar on December 16, 2014, 06:38:08 pm
Post by: TheDarkStar on December 16, 2014, 09:43:48 pm
Scripten was the Town Cop!
Votes:
Deus Asmoth:
Dorsidwarf:
NotQuiteThere:
No lynch:
No vote:
Extend:
Day 4 will end whenever.
Post by: Scintillant on December 16, 2014, 10:53:41 pm
You might want to fix the first post. It says we lynched mask, not NQT.
[/ghosttalk]
Post by: TheDarkStar on December 16, 2014, 10:55:51 pm
[ghosttalk]
You might want to fix the first post.
[/ghosttalk]
Whoops, put that on the wrong line.
Post by: Deus Asmoth on December 16, 2014, 11:19:43 pm
Mask, aside from some token interaction at the end of day 2 and asking him to answer Scripten's questions towards the end of day 3, you haven't had much to do with NQT this game. Why? Why did you end day three with no vote cast, for that matter?
Post by: 4maskwolf on December 16, 2014, 11:37:04 pm
Post by: Dorsidwarf on December 17, 2014, 02:01:25 am
4maskwolf
Looks like sticking your neck out to save your scumbuddy's failed, doesn't it?
Or did you already realise that when you tried to back off and end the day on no vote to throw off the suspicion you garnered?
LyLo and no vote at day end?
Gimme an S!
Gimme a C!
Gimme a U, M, B, A, G!
Post by: Deus Asmoth on December 17, 2014, 02:13:26 pm
Post by: Dorsidwarf on December 17, 2014, 06:52:50 pm
Post by: Deus Asmoth on December 17, 2014, 07:39:49 pm
Post by: 4maskwolf on December 18, 2014, 02:06:24 pm
Good job, everyone. I hope next time I play with you I'll be able to pay more attention to the game, and I hope you all had a good time while it lasted.
4maskwolf
shorten
Post by: 4maskwolf on December 18, 2014, 02:11:52 pm
Mask, aside from some token interaction at the end of day 2 and asking him to answer Scripten's questions towards the end of day 3, you haven't had much to do with NQT this game. Why? Why did you end day three with no vote cast, for that matter?To just answer these questions honestly, he didn't do anything worth noting D2 and on D3 I couldn't really interact with him and make my vote on Scripten seem credible. I was actually trying to pull refuge in audacity there, to make you all think "there's no way the scum would be so stupid as to vote with his scumbuddy so quickly, without a townie voting with them" and assume we were town. Didn't work, ah well. As for the D3 no-vote, that was a mix of life and forgetting that I had unvoted.
2town1scum, coming to your cinemas soon.LYLO no-vote wasn't actually damage control. I was already screwed royally anyway, what with NQT being really busy and not arguing back against Scripten, and we just got screwed that the cop was the most experienced player left in the game who knew how to ward off attacks fairly well during the day game. I wasn't sticking my neck out for him either, I was trying RiA.
4maskwolf
Looks like sticking your neck out to save your scumbuddy's failed, doesn't it?
Or did you already realise that when you tried to back off and end the day on no vote to throw off the suspicion you garnered?
LyLo and no vote at day end?
Gimme an S!
Gimme a C!
Gimme a U, M, B, A, G!
Post by: Deus Asmoth on December 18, 2014, 03:10:39 pm
Post by: TheDarkStar on December 18, 2014, 05:32:44 pm
Post by: TheDarkStar on December 18, 2014, 05:43:01 pm
4maskwolf was an alien (Mafia Rolecop)!
Deus Asmoth was a human (Vanilla Townie)!
Dorsidwarf was a human (Vanilla Townie)!
The humans (town) have won!
Night actions:
Night 1: Scripten investigates Scintillant
Scum investigate Dorsidwarf
Scum kill 4maskwolf Mk I
Night 2: Scripten investigates NQT
Scum investigate Scripten
Scum kill Cheeetar
Night 3: Scripten tries to investigate 4maskwolf Mk II and unsurprisingly dies
Scum kill Scripten
Deadchats:
First one. (http://www.quicktopic.com/50/H/5kVmKyLJQSMu)
Second one to avoid 4mask seeing deadchat. (http://www.quicktopic.com/50/H/HZdg5m3DX8iL)
Scumchat. (http://www.quicktopic.com/50/H/resMsekAFMHDq)
Post by: Scripten on December 18, 2014, 06:32:09 pm
Good game everyone! From my possibly erroneous count, it has been six(!) BM games since town last won. Also, willing to give post-game commentary on anyone who would like it.
Post by: zombie urist on December 18, 2014, 06:37:39 pm
Congratulations to the town!
Post by: Scintillant on December 18, 2014, 07:06:03 pm
Post by: Deus Asmoth on December 18, 2014, 07:36:15 pm
Post by: Deus Asmoth on December 18, 2014, 07:44:47 pm
Post by: Cheeetar on December 19, 2014, 12:09:05 am
Any tips for me, then? Aside from not going OMGUS on Scripten at the start of day 2 (because that was really clever of me ::))
Be bolder! From what I saw, you had some decent ideas, you just needed to be more confident about your own suspicions and more aggressive with them.
Post by: Dorsidwarf on December 19, 2014, 01:31:26 am
Big thanks to everyone playing, especially the replacements who stopped activity from flooring!
Post by: Comrade Shamrock on December 19, 2014, 03:47:57 pm
Big thanks to everyone playing, especially the replacements who stopped activity from flooring!
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Also well done guys. So anything I should know other than get a good memory and make sure I know what I'm talking about?
Post by: Dorsidwarf on December 20, 2014, 02:22:02 am
Post by: notquitethere on December 20, 2014, 07:17:16 am