Bay 12 Games Forum
Dwarf Fortress => DF Suggestions => Topic started by: MDFification on December 02, 2014, 07:19:45 pm
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So I'm finally going to suggest the game arbitrarily inflict serious wounds and even death on your dwarves unavoidably while you play.
No, seriously.
Accidents happen IRL. How many significant historical figures have died in trivial fashions? You can trip and be unfortunate enough to break a bone or even your skull from a standing position.
Essentially I suggest that occasionally (weighted towards happening around once/twice a year) a dwarf will "trip" and receive a random injury. The vast majority are just shallow cuts/bruises, but rarely a bone will be broken, or even a skull.
The benefit of this to the player is that it gives a constant source of practice for the player's doctors. It also provides a good reason to train up multiple personnel instead of over-relying on a few specialists as a dwarf can rarely die of random mishap. Plus, it's a morale challenge: Dwarves won't be happy about being injured, and the rare (should happen only around once every few years for a large fort) death can strain morale as well.
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I agree, I love how dwarf can fell trees on themselves or others now and want to see more of that. Still, I don't think it should be random. Base it on what the dwarf is doing and relevant skill. Maybe a weak or clumsy dwarf has a (significantly increased) chance of dropping whatever thery're hauling on their foot. maybe low spatial awareness and observation increases chance of falling down stairs, that kind of thing.
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accidents make sense, and safety protocol can be a thing you establish via fort restrictions (a use for the COTG and justice) and punishment. It could be a tradeoff, with less accidents for more resources lost.
But no reason to make it flat random aside from its barest implementation.
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So Urist McLegendary who slew demons and dragons alike died from suffocation while eating a cheese.
BTW, I recall I had a FB who died from colliding with an obstacle, so what exactly happened?
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So Urist McLegendary who slew demons and dragons alike died from suffocation while eating a cheese.
BTW, I recall I had a FB who died from colliding with an obstacle, so what exactly happened?
Cave in. Almost guaranteed. Its 'possible' to have dodged off a ledge or been kicked away by a hostile, but almost guaranteed it unleashed its own breathe attack, and struck a wall, exploding into gibs.
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Sure, accidents happen, but they aren't completely random. A lot of real-life accidents can be avoided with proper safety-precautions; others happen because people make really stupid choices. So if anything like this is implemented, the risk should depend on circumstances, not just a random number generator.
I'm not too keen on the idea myself, although it might be convenient if all these citizens who get stuck in treetops would fall down and break their legs once in a while instead of staying up there until they die ::)
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It might already be a thing since DF2014:
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=141539.0
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Randomly and arbitrarily inflicting death on your dwarves sounds like a frustrating way to lose a fortress.
I'd rather have more realistic injuries. Like sprained ankles from running down stairs, or bumps and bruises from standing in overcrowded tiles.
Additionally some work-related injuries like chefs cutting their fingers, smiths smashing their hands, animal trainers getting nipped by their animals. That sort of things.
Bonus Dwarf Points for critical incompetence. Like a smelter burning off his beard, a chef amputating his fingers, or a carpenter driving a nail into his own hand.
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If you connect defferent levels with a spire of ramps, and put hatches here and there, random injury is guaranteed.
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It could be weighted using the agility attribute; When agility is low the dwarf is described as clumsy. Agile dwarves less likely to trip.
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Hitting oneself with tool, real (like pick axes) or symbolic (whatever workshop is), tipping off the stairs or edges sometimes. Makes sense and more use for hospital industry.
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You're basically suggesting "roll a d100 every tick, if it's a one one of your dorfs dies and there's NOTHING you can do about it". Realism is nice and all, but not when it significantly worsens the gameplay experience.
Small wounds would be OK, especially in avoidable situations (overcrowding and such, as others have suggested). Dwarves just randomly dying through no fault of your own isn't fun, though.
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You're basically suggesting "roll a d100 every tick, if it's a one one of your dorfs dies and there's NOTHING you can do about it". Realism is nice and all, but not when it significantly worsens the gameplay experience.
Small wounds would be OK, especially in avoidable situations (overcrowding and such, as others have suggested). Dwarves just randomly dying through no fault of your own isn't fun, though.
I said it should be rare to seem the die, but it still should be a thing that happens. I don't think it makes gameplay worse if your dwarves have a small chance to die of natural causes. It's no different than old age, except it won't require players to gen long histories or run forts for decades to experience.
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You're basically suggesting "roll a d100 every tick, if it's a one one of your dorfs dies and there's NOTHING you can do about it". Realism is nice and all, but not when it significantly worsens the gameplay experience.
Small wounds would be OK, especially in avoidable situations (overcrowding and such, as others have suggested). Dwarves just randomly dying through no fault of your own isn't fun, though.
I said it should be rare to seem the die, but it still should be a thing that happens. I don't think it makes gameplay worse if your dwarves have a small chance to die of natural causes. It's no different than old age, except it won't require players to gen long histories or run forts for decades to experience.
I think aging should be in the game too, but that's a separate suggestion.
To make random accidents a feature rather than a bug, the player should have some control over the rate. Maybe unstressed Dwarves are less accident prone (or more likely, a Goldilocks zone of moderate stress is best). Or the player can choose shorter breaks with a concomitant increase in the chance for accidents.
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Medical industry right now is underappreciated. Dwarves rarely live to seek treatment.
Adding workplace injuries to the game would make it more interesting. Fatalities though? That doesn't seem like it would improve the game.
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Urist McLegendaryArmorcrafter trips!
Urist McLegendaryArmorcrafter's head skids on the ground, breaking his skull and tearing his brain!
Urist McLegendaryArmorcrafter has been struck down!
Urist McScared: It was inevitable.
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Urist McLegendaryArmorcrafter trips!
Urist McLegendaryArmorcrafter's head skids on the ground, breaking his skull and tearing his brain!
Urist McLegendaryArmorcrafter has been struck down!
Urist McScared: It was inevitable.
Lol.
I think random injuries would be good for the reasons that have been described. Maybe the player could take efforts to ensure that the random wounds are less serious. Making roads and smooth floors would make falls less likely to do serious damage. Stuff like that would allow doctors to keep there skills up without randomly killing your valuable dwarves.
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You're basically suggesting "roll a d100 every tick, if it's a one one of your dorfs dies and there's NOTHING you can do about it". Realism is nice and all, but not when it significantly worsens the gameplay experience.
Small wounds would be OK, especially in avoidable situations (overcrowding and such, as others have suggested). Dwarves just randomly dying through no fault of your own isn't fun, though.
I said it should be rare to seem the die, but it still should be a thing that happens. I don't think it makes gameplay worse if your dwarves have a small chance to die of natural causes. It's no different than old age, except it won't require players to gen long histories or run forts for decades to experience.
I think aging should be in the game too, but that's a separate suggestion.
To make random accidents a feature rather than a bug, the player should have some control over the rate. Maybe unstressed Dwarves are less accident prone (or more likely, a Goldilocks zone of moderate stress is best). Or the player can choose shorter breaks with a concomitant increase in the chance for accidents.
Aging is in the game, it just is extremely rare in the span of a typical player fort.
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You're basically suggesting "roll a d100 every tick, if it's a one one of your dorfs dies and there's NOTHING you can do about it". Realism is nice and all, but not when it significantly worsens the gameplay experience.
Small wounds would be OK, especially in avoidable situations (overcrowding and such, as others have suggested). Dwarves just randomly dying through no fault of your own isn't fun, though.
I said it should be rare to seem the die, but it still should be a thing that happens. I don't think it makes gameplay worse if your dwarves have a small chance to die of natural causes. It's no different than old age, except it won't require players to gen long histories or run forts for decades to experience.
I think aging should be in the game too, but that's a separate suggestion.
To make random accidents a feature rather than a bug, the player should have some control over the rate. Maybe unstressed Dwarves are less accident prone (or more likely, a Goldilocks zone of moderate stress is best). Or the player can choose shorter breaks with a concomitant increase in the chance for accidents.
Aging is in the game, it just is extremely rare in the span of a typical player fort.
Old age is much more visible in adventure mode, as bandit groups often don't take on new members, it't not uncommon for you to be accosted by 20 men, only to have all of them die on the next move of old age
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Old age is much more visible in adventure mode, as bandit groups often don't take on new members, it't not uncommon for you to be accosted by 20 men, only to have all of them die on the next move of old age
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Iv never had that happen before. How many years old was the world you were using when this happened?
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I didn't mean just dropping dead of old age, I mean some accumulation of health problems (other than injuries) as one gets older.
Death by old age used to be a problem with forts: the monarch would arrive and keel over at the edge of your map. Now those checks happen off-screen and a successor is chosen.
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Old age happens but it does so very rarely in most forts
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Ramps + Hatch Covers x Block Stockpile = Tons of injuries.
Done.
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I like this suggestion. Sure, you said random, but you really meant weighted against personality, and attributes, the dwarf fortress way.
It would really help cull the weak. It would also make you more inclined to screen your military. Nothing worse than losing your fortress because your legendary swords dwarf tripped, and fell on his own sword, in his might charge to defeat the goblin scum.
I would also like to see the chances be greater for children, they're always doing stupid things before they realize their stupid (I myself nearly broke an ankle at a very young age because I liked jumping off stuff. I also tried to build a parachute, and nearly jumped out my window, onto a vertical driveway).
Of course, I do agree that there should be some way to prevent it, and I think that's the limiting factor about when it would implemented. Do we offer woodcutter training courses, to improve safety? Force them to work in pairs, so they always have someone their to correct them? Have nobles that institute fines on dwarves who fail to follow established safety routines? How can we define these routines? Can dwarves actually learn from their mistakes? Daycare (Real daycare) for the kids while they are a danger to themselves and others?..
It seems complicated. Maybe we should, for now, just be less careful in fortress design?..
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Of course, I do agree that there should be some way to prevent it, and I think that's the limiting factor about when it would implemented. Do we offer woodcutter training courses, to improve safety? Force them to work in pairs, so they always have someone their to correct them? Have nobles that institute fines on dwarves who fail to follow established safety routines? How can we define these routines? Can dwarves actually learn from their mistakes? Daycare (Real daycare) for the kids while they are a danger to themselves and others?..
It seems complicated. Maybe we should, for now, just be less careful in fortress design?..
What I'd implement as a way to prevent it is make dwarves less likely to trip on smoothed floors, make them less likely to have work accidents in uncluttered workshops (so keep your stockpiles functioning) and avoid long, continuous staircases (as if one trips on the staircase, they fall all the way down the staircase as currently implemented.... and that could be a lot of z-levels. I warned you about the stairs, bro). Maybe also avoid cluttered floorspace, ensure all the random garbage your dwarves drop in the hallways is cleaned up or they're liable to take a spill.
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This seems like a good idea, if implemented properly. Here's how I would do it:
Every time a creature moves, it has a chance of stumbling. Things that increase the chance of stumbling are:
- Moving over rough floors or stairs
- The presence of contaminants on the tile, especially liquid
- Moving over an item outside of a container
- Moving at a fast gait
- Carrying a heavy burden
- Dizziness, drowsiness, fever, nausea, or extreme hunger and thirst
- High levels of stress
- Being an unskilled crutch walker
This is weighed against the creature's agility, kinesthetic sense, and observation skill, which reduce the chance of stumbling. Stumbling also trains observation slightly.
Creatures attempting to move past each other may also collide with each other. This deals damage (as if one was thrown into the other, but much weaker) and has a chance to cause stumbling as well. For additional fun, the collision may be interpreted as a (non-lethal) attack by dwarves who are prone to anger or have other particular personality traits, which can potentially spark a brawl.
Stumbling deals minor impact damage to one of the creature's STANCE bodyparts. Upon stumbling, the creature also has a chance of tripping, which will be based on the same stats as the stumbling calculation, dealing further impact damage to another bodypart and causing them to fall to the ground. The chance of injury will be greatest for GRASP bodyparts and lowest for the creature's HEAD.
Creatures with more than two legs are (i.e. creatures that will not collapse if they lose the use of one STANCE part) or those who are able to fly are much less likely to trip even if they stumble, although it can still happen. Creatures with no functional legs will never stumble.
If the creature is carrying something when they trip, there is also a chance that they may injure themselves on a random body part with the item they were carrying. This is calculated as if they were attacked with the item using a basic strike attack. If the item is a weapon, a random attack with that weapon may be chosen, but the force behind the attack will be proportional to the severity of the trip instead of based on the creature's strength or skill.
A creature stumbling or tripping may also move one space in a random direction, potentially knocking them into a pit. The chance of moving in the direction they were trying to move is higher than the chance of moving in a different direction.
A creature that trips (or falls down for other reasons) while on a flight of stairs may continue to fall, dealing further injuries with each z-level down and also colliding with anyone else in their way. They have a chance of catching themselves each step, though, and the speed of falling is capped at a reasonable amount (so no falling all the way down the stairs and exploding).
Work-related injuries may also occur during regular workshop tasks. These injuries would be biased toward the hands (i.e. GRASP bodyparts) but could potentially occur anywhere on the body. They would typically be very minor though, and simulated by a weak edged or blunt attack toward the bodypart in question - for jobs that require fuel such as smelting or metalsmithing, burns may also be involved. The skill of the worker would prevent or mitigate these injuries.
The effect of this would be:
- An accumulation of minor injuries for training your doctors.
- Gradual training of the observation skill.
- Discouragement of lazy fortress design based around long up/down staircases.
- Further discouragement of crowded, narrow corridors and tiny meeting places.
- Small amounts of combat training if you do have crowded areas.
- More good reasons to smooth out your fortress floors and keep them clean and organized.
- An accumulation of scars on the hands of legendary craftdwarves.
- More potential for hilarity and !!fun!!
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Other things that could increase the chance:
- Being unable to see (if blinded, in the dark, and light blindness too if it gets added)
- Numb/blistered/swollen/impaired/necrotic/paralysed/otherwise injured stance parts
- Extreme age (both young and old)
All this makes me wonder if human traders ever bump their heads on their way through dwarven doors.
I like the idea of unifying it all under stumbling, but there could be more flavour (falling off chairs, out of bed, banging head etc).
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For additional fun, the collision may be interpreted as a (non-lethal) attack by dwarves who are prone to anger or have other particular personality traits, which can potentially spark a brawl.
So, Urist McLegendaryWrestler stumbles with a random baby, gets pissed and sends him flying across the room with a mighty kick, killing the child.
The parents go insane and die. Causing their family and friends to also go insane and throw tantrums, eventually making the for explode in a glorious tantrum spiral only because a soldier kicked a baby?
I need that now.
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Work-related injuries may also occur during regular workshop tasks. These injuries would be biased toward the hands (i.e. GRASP bodyparts) but could potentially occur anywhere on the body. They would typically be very minor though, and simulated by a weak edged or blunt attack toward the bodypart in question - for jobs that require fuel such as smelting or metalsmithing, burns may also be involved. The skill of the worker would prevent or mitigate these injuries.
Urist McClumsy has suffered an injury to the left third toe due to a freak clothesmaking accident!
Urist McClumsy cancels make socks, heading to hospital.
Urist McClumsy stumbles on a smoothed floor, injuring the right ear. The severed part flies off in an arc!
We so need this feature in the game...
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Urist McClumsy cancels head to hospital: seeking ear.
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I had a lengthy discussion about this in my mod board, we called it "the random god of death", which adds a 1% chance of a dwarf dying a year, listing humorous reasons (choked on alcohol, got a heartattack because his sock was missing, etc).
The overall feedback was positive, as long as it was an optional feature that can be disabled for people that dislike it. It would have resulted in 1 death a year in a 100 dwarf fort, and 2 deaths in a 200 dwarf fort, etc. The fact most people disliked is the inevitability, every time I introduce negative mod features, there must be a counter-measure, otherwise people dislike it.
Accidents I introduced long before, with specific workshops being able to start fires, or people getting arsenic poisoning from smelting metals, or people getting sick while butchering, or working with refuse.
Just pointing out that it works well in gameplay, and adds a certain realism and dynamic, if your smelter starts to burn or your refuse-burner (I have a crematory) starts to puke from the stench.
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1% is a high chance.
But I see you point.
Although I think the accidents should be based on their traits. Careful dorfs usually don't burn their workshops easily. A toothless dorf tend to choke on food. And so on.
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I was coming to suggest something similar and decided to search first.
I think random minor injuries would be good for adding depth to the world as well as doctor practice and such. Mostly for Dwarves doing semi dangerous tasks such as mining, woodcutting, animal training, and hauling heavy objects without a wheelbarrow.
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It might already be a thing since DF2014:
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=141539.0
Staalo(sp?) gave that the name "Flying Dwarf Syndrome" in the new dwarven childcare thread. It's a bug not a feature.
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This seems like a good idea, if implemented properly. Here's how I would do it:
Every time a creature moves, it has a chance of stumbling. Things that increase the chance of stumbling are:
- Moving over rough floors or stairs
- The presence of contaminants on the tile, especially liquid
- Moving over an item outside of a container
- Moving at a fast gait
- Carrying a heavy burden
- Dizziness, drowsiness, fever, nausea, or extreme hunger and thirst
- High levels of stress
- Being an unskilled crutch walker
This is weighed against the creature's agility, kinesthetic sense, and observation skill, which reduce the chance of stumbling. Stumbling also trains observation slightly.
Creatures attempting to move past each other may also collide with each other. This deals damage (as if one was thrown into the other, but much weaker) and has a chance to cause stumbling as well. For additional fun, the collision may be interpreted as a (non-lethal) attack by dwarves who are prone to anger or have other particular personality traits, which can potentially spark a brawl.
Stumbling deals minor impact damage to one of the creature's STANCE bodyparts. Upon stumbling, the creature also has a chance of tripping, which will be based on the same stats as the stumbling calculation, dealing further impact damage to another bodypart and causing them to fall to the ground. The chance of injury will be greatest for GRASP bodyparts and lowest for the creature's HEAD.
Creatures with more than two legs are (i.e. creatures that will not collapse if they lose the use of one STANCE part) or those who are able to fly are much less likely to trip even if they stumble, although it can still happen. Creatures with no functional legs will never stumble.
If the creature is carrying something when they trip, there is also a chance that they may injure themselves on a random body part with the item they were carrying. This is calculated as if they were attacked with the item using a basic strike attack. If the item is a weapon, a random attack with that weapon may be chosen, but the force behind the attack will be proportional to the severity of the trip instead of based on the creature's strength or skill.
A creature stumbling or tripping may also move one space in a random direction, potentially knocking them into a pit. The chance of moving in the direction they were trying to move is higher than the chance of moving in a different direction.
A creature that trips (or falls down for other reasons) while on a flight of stairs may continue to fall, dealing further injuries with each z-level down and also colliding with anyone else in their way. They have a chance of catching themselves each step, though, and the speed of falling is capped at a reasonable amount (so no falling all the way down the stairs and exploding).
Work-related injuries may also occur during regular workshop tasks. These injuries would be biased toward the hands (i.e. GRASP bodyparts) but could potentially occur anywhere on the body. They would typically be very minor though, and simulated by a weak edged or blunt attack toward the bodypart in question - for jobs that require fuel such as smelting or metalsmithing, burns may also be involved. The skill of the worker would prevent or mitigate these injuries.
The effect of this would be:
- An accumulation of minor injuries for training your doctors.
- Gradual training of the observation skill.
- Discouragement of lazy fortress design based around long up/down staircases.
- Further discouragement of crowded, narrow corridors and tiny meeting places.
- Small amounts of combat training if you do have crowded areas.
- More good reasons to smooth out your fortress floors and keep them clean and organized.
- An accumulation of scars on the hands of legendary craftdwarves.
- More potential for hilarity and !!fun!!
This is exactly how I would love to see it implemented. Training of observation, which would have a large effect on accidents, would be great.
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The potential for fatal accidents is important if accidents exist at all. Features that don't have downsides in proper proportion to any upsides don't really fit with the game's tone. What we need is better, balanced ways to replace the dwarfs that succumb to such things. Not being liked is no reason for a valuable feature, even if the value is only found in the drama that it kicks off, to be excluded. Only after a feature has actually been implemented can anyone really know whether or not to like it.
Any feature that is considered "controversial", should be made an option rather than a hard and fast rule. Simply dismissing an idea like this based on preconceptions is foolish. Start out at max complexity and then scale back until you reach a level that feels fair and balanced while also causing some undervalued discomfort.
Yeah sorry about how all of that is structured. Communication isn't really "my thing".
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I like this idea, especially the way IndigoFenix outlines it. I'd limit it to floors and work-related injuries, though, unless some other feature gets implemented to justify "falling out of bed" being a thing (Nightmares in haunted forts, perhaps?) ...Okay, I changed my mind: haunted forts should have a chance for Dwarfs having nightmares that roll them right out of their beds.