Bay 12 Games Forum

Other Projects => Other Games => Play With Your Buddies => Topic started by: Akhier the Dragon hearted on December 29, 2014, 06:18:51 pm

Title: Dominions 4 Round 14: Wrapped up
Post by: Akhier the Dragon hearted on December 29, 2014, 06:18:51 pm
Playlist for LP from Machaka's PoV (https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLbGD7QQtiRBkxEd4KAXUjtWC9EY9FUMix)

Game name: Bay12GamesRound414 (http://www.llamaserver.net/gameinfo.cgi?game=Bay12GamesRound414)
Map: leakinglands v3 (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/11378034/leakinglandv3.zip)
Era: Early Era
Time allowance: 72h
Score graphs: Own Nation Only
Hall of Fame: 15
Artifact forging limit: Limited
Renaming: allowed
Thrones: 10 lv1


List of Players:
Akhier (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?action=profile;u=15375)[Machaka]
EnigmaticHat (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?action=profile;u=40639)[Niefelheim]
Hellheart (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?action=profile;u=108778)[Ulm]
tompliss (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?action=profile;u=20610)[Atlantis]
Elfeater (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?action=profile;u=42633)[Eremor]
Delta Foxtrot (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?action=profile;u=56359)[Pangaea]
Criptfeind (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?action=profile;u=17759)[C'tis]
akirilus (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?action=profile;u=109238)[Fomoria]


Spoiler: Previous rounds (Dom3 & 4) (click to show/hide)

Spoiler: Standard info on Dominions 4 for the uninitiated (click to show/hide)

Spoiler: How does PBEM work? (click to show/hide)

Useful links:
Dom4 forums on Desura (http://www.desura.com/games/dominions-4-thrones-of-ascensions/forum)
Dom4 Mod Inspector (https://larzm42.github.io/dom4inspector/)
An archived snapshot of the Dom3 wiki (http://web.archive.org/web/20130118162532/http://dom3.servegame.com/wiki/Main_Page): Yes, it's still relevant, and it hasn't been replaced yet, so... It has loads of useful information, including strategy guides. Keep in mind that while a lot of this information is still very useful and valid, a lot of it is entirely out-of-date.

Llama Server (http://llamaserver.net/): the automatic hosting server for our game.
Llama Server's map and mod browser (http://www.llamaserver.net/createDom4Game.cgi) (Yes, it's not really a browser, but you can browse the maps and mods here)

Text liberated by Akhier the Dragon hearted from round 4.08 which had taken it from the 4.06 thread, where TomPliss stole it from Delta Foxtrot who stole it from  E. Albright who stole it from Akhier the Dragon hearted who stole it from ScriptWolf who stole if from Il Palazzo ( with his say so ), and scantly updated for Dom4 by the latest OP E. Albright. with some tweaks by Akhier
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Looking for Players and Deciding upon the Map and such
Post by: EnigmaticHat on December 29, 2014, 06:26:29 pm
I'll join, and I'm playing Niefelhiem.  Note that I am le noob, have a hard time being motivated to play against the AI so I'll just lose a bit to humans.

Map suggestion: four-way wraparound random?
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Looking for Players and Deciding upon the Map and such
Post by: Akhier the Dragon hearted on December 29, 2014, 06:40:42 pm
   Welcome! Don't worry about being a noob. I am mostly certain not only did I dive right into MP but my first game I was the admin. The fun part is playing the game with others. As for the suggestion while random is fine by me others will probably want a specific map is only because they have been tested more so as to not have bad starts and such.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Looking for Players and Deciding upon the Map and such
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on December 29, 2014, 08:01:06 pm
Peliwyr (127+18) (http://www.desura.com/games/dominions-4-thrones-of-ascensions/forum/thread/peliwyr-12718-wraparound) is pretty awesome. Yes, yes it's pretty, but IMO it's a really good map in terms of terrain types and province placement. The same author made a few other maps in the same style at sizes (81+10) and (84+9) (check his sig via the hyperlink) but I haven't played on those enough to comment if they're as good as Peliwyr for general gameplay.

I'm undecided about joining for now. I need to sub out around May if this drags that far with me going strong. Understandably I'm reluctant about joining a game I might not be able to finish :P
Realistically I expect this game to last 3-4 months tops, but you never know.

I'm undecided with my nation for now. I suppose I could do some horrible things with EA Pan (assuming I can get them to work, I'm more of an MA Pan guy). But really I could pick anything at this point.

edit:
Not that we can really think about the map too much until we have (mostly) final player tally figured out.

further edit:
Worthy Heroes (http://z7.invisionfree.com/Dom3mods/index.php?showtopic=2358) is pretty popular, almost vanilla at this point judging by its prevalence. And personally I like the look of UW Expanded (http://z7.invisionfree.com/Dom3mods/index.php?showtopic=2113). Just you know, in case you were wondering about mods.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Looking for Players and Deciding upon the Map and such
Post by: Akhier the Dragon hearted on December 29, 2014, 08:21:40 pm
   Mods are cool and if most of the players wanted a specific one that would be fine though I somewhat would prefer to start vanilla. As for the suggested map and the fact that we can really dilly dally on deciding till everyone is here is noted. Anyway I will put you down as undecided on both the joining and the nation front.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Looking for Players and Deciding upon the Map and such
Post by: E. Albright on December 29, 2014, 08:24:30 pm
Peliwyr is pretty, but it's miserably cramped. Round 410 had 9 players, and two or three started two provinces away from each other - and one pair started with just one province between capitals. I really don't like how nations and thrones cluster on it.

I'd be wary of using the UW Expanded mod, mostly since we're due to have an "underwater patch" hitting us in probably 6-12 weeks, which could render some of its changes weird.

Finally, in the boilerplate thread header, you should probably expunge the reference to Edi's ModDB since he no longer maintains it, and replace it with the reason he no longer sees any need to do so: https://larzm42.github.io/dom4inspector/
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Looking for Players and Deciding upon the Map and such
Post by: Akhier the Dragon hearted on December 29, 2014, 08:27:17 pm
Many thanks on the input. I have just now changed the reference from Edi's to the Inspector.

Edit: Oh and how many provinces would you suggest per a person?
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Looking for Players and Deciding upon the Map and such
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on December 29, 2014, 08:28:15 pm
Oh definitely. I think 8 on Peliwyr is nice "regular" match. 9 or 10 results in a situation that's more aggressive by necessity.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Looking for Players and Deciding upon the Map and such
Post by: E. Albright on December 29, 2014, 09:07:05 pm
Depending on the map, I'd say 15-20. Layout really matters, though. E.g., I've done both Peliwyr and Urraparand (both full-wrap maps with 12-15% water) with ~15 provinces per player, and the latter feels reasonably spread out while the former makes me want to gouge my eyes out in frustration. Admittedly, a lot of my issues with Peliwyr probably would be alleviated by subbing in an aquatic nation or two - though it's not big enough to support two, so that limits that. But if you're all land nations I don't even think I'd feel good with 8 on Peliwyr. YMMV.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Looking for Players
Post by: Hellheart on December 30, 2014, 04:19:31 am
In with Ulm, since I'm not going to play them in 4.13.

As far as maps go, we don't necessarily need a random one. There's a lot of maps that have been published since Peliwyr and we can probably dig through them and find something reasonable.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Looking for Players
Post by: tompliss on December 30, 2014, 04:54:17 am
Willing to play in this one. Atlantis, I think.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Looking for Players
Post by: Akhier the Dragon hearted on December 30, 2014, 08:36:01 am
   Welcome both of you. With this we are about half way to 8 players which I consider a good place to consider starting. For anyone who wants to join I will note that I am not cutting it off strictly at 8 but will likely not go beyond 10 and only get there in an extreme circumstance.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Looking for Players
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on December 30, 2014, 08:41:12 am
Quote from: Hellheart on December 30, 2014, 04:19:31 am
In with Ulm, since I'm not going to play them in 4.13.

As far as maps go, we don't necessarily need a random one. There's a lot of maps that have been published since Peliwyr and we can probably dig through them and find something reasonable.

And before.

Really there's a bunch. If I browse through the maps I have and exclude Pymous' stuff, there's: Maerlande, Realm of Roaring Rhinoes, Realm of Rampaging Roaches, Plane of Rusty Nails, Big Black Peaks, Leaking Land. I don't think I've played a proper PBEM on any of those yet. I believe Leaking Land is the only one that isn't in vanilla, link below:
http://z7.invisionfree.com/Dom3mods/index.php?showtopic=2093
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Looking for Players ([4 to 5] of [8 to 10])
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on December 30, 2014, 10:34:18 am
Posting to watch, obviously. I might join in, but I'm feeling very conflicted about doing so. On the one hand I'm definitely burnt out on Dominions right now, so joining a new game isn't the greatest idea in the world. But on the other hand it'll probably be another 2 months before someone makes a new game, and I'm not sure whether I'll want to wait that long to join a new game. Plus I'm thinking that tackling a new strategy instead of my usual mage blasting might make me interested in playing MP again, but that could easily be a trap...

In other words, put me down as a very tenative maybe. We'll see how I feel after a couple days of experimenting and thought. If you get a sudden inrush of players then drop me out, since they would probably be more involved and energetic than me. But if you need warm bodies... I'm better than nothing I guess.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Looking for Players ([4 to 6] of [8 to 10])
Post by: Akhier the Dragon hearted on December 30, 2014, 12:15:00 pm
   Always glad to have you. I will note of course that you can always go my route for joining a game when there aren't any. Just start one, as long as you don't mind admining (and you can probably pawn it off on someone else in the game if you really need to), it works quite well.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Looking for Players ([4 to 6] of [8 to 10])
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on December 30, 2014, 03:22:51 pm
I'd like to reserve EA Pan. I need to do some testing since I've never played their EA incarnation, but that seems the most likely nation for me at the moment.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Looking for Players ([4 to 6] of [8 to 10])
Post by: dennislp3 on December 30, 2014, 03:25:58 pm
Posting so that I can find this post later and post again...
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Looking for Players ([4 to 6] of [8 to 10])
Post by: Akhier the Dragon hearted on December 30, 2014, 03:36:28 pm
   Okay Pan has been put down for you. Does this mean you have decided to join then, because while I have it under your name if someone joins and wants it they will get it if you don't chime in quickly and confirm your being in. Though I will be honest people are much to nice on this forum so it is likely they no one will.

   Oh, and no one has suggest a nation for me to play. I was serious about wanting someone else to decide for me. I have played Tien Chi way to much. In fact I don't think I have played an MP game where I wasn't Tien Chi.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Looking for Players ([4 to 6] of [8 to 10])
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on December 30, 2014, 03:42:03 pm
Feel free to drop me if this fills up quick and you want to get started right away. It might take the weekend for me to get a gameplan I'm happy with. But I'm fairly confident I'll get something together and join this.

You could try TC :P
Seriously. If you're new to dom4 from dom3, what better way to experience changes than to take a familiar nation for a spin?

But if oriental pixelmen are coming out of your ears then... Machaka? It's one of the new nations in dom4, it's pretty cool. Lot more flavourful than MA Machaka. Or Kailasa, I'd like to see someone play good monkey game assuming you're up for it.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Looking for Players ([4 to 6] of [8 to 10])
Post by: Akhier the Dragon hearted on December 30, 2014, 03:51:39 pm
   Its not that I play Tien Chi so much that I know them quite well but rather I seem to only end up playing them in MP. I tend to random my nation when playing SP. As for your suggestions it would be neat to play one of the new nations and monkeys are fun. I think I will make it a decision between Machaka and Kailasa so if anyone else wants to weigh in one way or another feel free to.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Looking for Players ([4 to 6] of [8 to 10])
Post by: Elfeater on December 30, 2014, 03:54:36 pm
I might take EA Eremor, put me down tentatively.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Looking for Players ([4 to 7] of [8 to 10])
Post by: Akhier the Dragon hearted on December 30, 2014, 04:00:59 pm
   Okay I have you down as a maybe. With this we are either 1 away from maybe starting or only half way. Also to all those of you who are undecided while I like 8 I am willing to go up to 10 players (which is why the subject is "Looking for Players ([4 to 7] of [8 to 10])") so once we have 8 confirmed players up to 2 of the three of you can still join on a first come first serve basis.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Looking for Players ([4 to 7] of [8 to 10])
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on December 30, 2014, 04:13:23 pm
The decisiveness in this thread is staggering :P
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Looking for Players ([4 to 7] of [8 to 10])
Post by: Elfeater on December 30, 2014, 04:49:25 pm
I'll join, I just have work till Friday, so I might only get a round in a day.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Looking for Players ([4 to 7] of [8 to 10])
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on December 30, 2014, 04:55:59 pm
It's very rare that dominions games go faster than turn a day. Things might be different if Bay12 didn't have players separated by an ocean or two.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Looking for Players ([5 to 7] of [8 to 10])
Post by: Akhier the Dragon hearted on December 30, 2014, 05:53:14 pm
   I will put you down as being in Elfeater. As for turn times you might notice that I have it set at 48hr in the OP. Sure early on we might get a turn a day but this is definitely one of those slower games. Especially as Delta Foxtrot pointed out, we Bay12 denizens are spread out quite a bit. Barring big places like Reddit this is the most multinational place I hang out on the web.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Looking for Players ([5 to 7] of [8 to 10])
Post by: dennislp3 on December 30, 2014, 06:03:53 pm
I would like to join as Lanka
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Looking for Players ([6 to 8] of [8 to 10])
Post by: Akhier the Dragon hearted on December 30, 2014, 06:08:16 pm
   Okay, Welcome to the game. With this we are potentially able to start soon (if the map can be decided and my nation). Of course I would like to let those who are maybes decide whether they want in or not but since there are 2 of them we can safely accept two for sures and still be fine.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Looking for Players ([5 to 7] of [8 to 10])
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on December 30, 2014, 06:19:33 pm
Drop me out. I tried the different strategy I had in mind and am still not interested in playing. Maybe in a month I'll try setting up a game when I feel more enthusiastic, but for now I'm definitely not playing.

Also, I support you trying out Machaka. I've looked at it before, but never got a chance to play it in MP. They've got some relatively good infantry for EA, above average shortbows, and elephants for expanding. Their only major problem is that their best combat/research/whatever mages are either capital only or heretics which is kinda major. Still, they look like a really fun nation to play.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Looking for Players ([6 to 7] of [8 to 10])
Post by: Akhier the Dragon hearted on December 30, 2014, 06:27:16 pm
   Ah, Elephants. The early game expansion engine which seems so threatening until everyone just learns to bring a mouse with them. Anyway sorry that your idea didn't pan out how you wanted it to. Hopefully you feel more like it in a month or so.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Looking for Players ([6 to 7] of [8 to 10])
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on December 30, 2014, 06:42:18 pm
EA Machaka does get morale-10 elephants and beastmaster-2 commanders. Lucky for everyone else they still have to content with horrible MR.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Looking for Players ([6 to 7] of [8 to 10])
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on December 30, 2014, 06:43:01 pm
Oh no, the idea worked out perfectly fine. It just wasn't as exciting or interesting as I thought it was, that's all.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Looking for Players ([5 to 7] of [8 to 10])
Post by: Hellheart on December 30, 2014, 07:05:19 pm
Quote from: USEC_OFFICER on December 30, 2014, 06:19:33 pm
Drop me out. I tried the different strategy I had in mind and am still not interested in playing. Maybe in a month I'll try setting up a game when I feel more enthusiastic, but for now I'm definitely not playing.

I still haven't had much experience at all, but my tooling around with Lanka showed me that the best cure for a "meh, more of the same" mentality is to play a nation where you just can't do more of the same. That and mucking around with odd-but-tenable Pretender builds will keep my interest for a good while.

Or in more universal terms, the additional challenge that comes with an artificially-imposed constraint can help people get through mental blocks. For me it wouldn't be so much about the strategy I chose; it'd be more about a nation-Pretender combination that forced me into considering new strategies.

Unless it's EA. I don't know why but I feel like EA Ulm plays like my ideal nation.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Looking for Players ([6 to 7] of [8 to 10])
Post by: Akhier the Dragon hearted on December 30, 2014, 07:10:44 pm
@USEC_OFFICER
   Ah, that is even more of a shame. At least if it didn't work you could go and feel bad that if failed then try and find another way of doing it. When it works and it still feels meh you know you are burnt out and not just in a rut.

@Delta Foxtrot
   Elephants are indeed a early game tool. I am sure there is some way to use them later on but over all the chance of them getting scared and the running your own troops over is quite bad. Though it would be funny to give them flying and have them attack the rear so when they get scared they run through the enemy troops first.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Looking for Players ([6 to 7] of [8 to 10])
Post by: Elfeater on December 30, 2014, 08:29:03 pm
Sharivar and the Asoiaf maps are both gorgeous
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Looking for Players ([6 to 7] of [8 to 10])
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on December 30, 2014, 08:33:56 pm
I've been eyeing Shahrivar myself, but it's huge for our estimated player count.
I'll probably go over some maps and present a few that I think make a good fit for 8 player game in a few days.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Looking for Players ([6 to 7] of [8 to 10])
Post by: Akhier the Dragon hearted on December 30, 2014, 08:39:01 pm
Yes and it should be noted that we have an Atlantis player as well so water accommodations should be made.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Looking for Players ([6 to 7] of [8 to 10])
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on December 30, 2014, 08:48:52 pm
Quote from: Hellheart on December 30, 2014, 07:05:19 pm
I still haven't had much experience at all, but my tooling around with Lanka showed me that the best cure for a "meh, more of the same" mentality is to play a nation where you just can't do more of the same. That and mucking around with odd-but-tenable Pretender builds will keep my interest for a good while.

Or in more universal terms, the additional challenge that comes with an artificially-imposed constraint can help people get through mental blocks. For me it wouldn't be so much about the strategy I chose; it'd be more about a nation-Pretender combination that forced me into considering new strategies.

Unless it's EA. I don't know why but I feel like EA Ulm plays like my ideal nation.

Except I did pick a nation where I couldn't do more of the same, and it didn't really feel all that different or exciting. Maybe I just didn't go outside of my comfort zone enough but... Eh. Maybe I'll experiment some more, but I don't really see me playing in this. I mean, theorycrafting and the like is still interesting and engaging, but actually playing I'm just not excited for. After a couple months I'll be fine, but for now... Eh.

Also EA Ulm is one of my favourite nations too, but I can never seem to get them to play properly for me...

Quote from: Akhier the Dragon hearted on December 30, 2014, 07:10:44 pm
   Elephants are indeed a early game tool. I am sure there is some way to use them later on but over all the chance of them getting scared and the running your own troops over is quite bad. Though it would be funny to give them flying and have them attack the rear so when they get scared they run through the enemy troops first.

Rage of the Cornered Rat is probably what you want. Basically it makes all animals in a small radius go berserk, provided that you have N2 mages kicking around. Of course it doesn't help their terrible MR at all, but it's definitely an option if you don't want them to trample over your own troops. Plus it's pretty easy to nab at Thau 4, though again the low MR of elephants is going to screw them over in the long run. The Rage of the Cornered Rat just makes them more viable in combat for longer.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Looking for Players ([6 to 7] of [8 to 10])
Post by: Elfeater on December 30, 2014, 08:53:07 pm
Parganos maybe?
Possibly Tyrande?
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Looking for Players ([6 to 7] of [8 to 10])
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on December 30, 2014, 08:55:53 pm
@USEC_OFFICER:

Could just be that you're burned out. Wouldn't be the first player in Dominions history. I mean it can be at times a demanding and exhausting game. Maybe a little "vacation" is what you need to still be able to enjoy playing dominions.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Looking for Players ([6 to 7] of [8 to 10])
Post by: Akhier the Dragon hearted on December 30, 2014, 09:03:32 pm
I just realized something. I need to make an elephant a commander, give it flying, and then call it Dumbo!
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Looking for Players ([6 to 7] of [8 to 10])
Post by: akirilus on December 30, 2014, 09:28:15 pm
I'd like to jump on board as well, going to think about which nation I want and post in a bit.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Looking for Players ([7 to 8] of [8 to 10])
Post by: Akhier the Dragon hearted on December 30, 2014, 09:43:46 pm
Welcome aboard akirilus! Ever closer we come to being able to start.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Looking for Players ([6 to 7] of [8 to 10])
Post by: Hellheart on December 31, 2014, 02:17:54 am
Quote from: Akhier the Dragon hearted on December 30, 2014, 09:03:32 pm
I just realized something. I need to make an elephant a commander, give it flying, and then call it Dumbo!
One of the best uses for Gift of Reason that I've ever heard!

I'm going to have to campaign to get enough Nature Gems to cast it on Gimpy if I research up to that point. He's been Vanheim's unofficial mascot for so long that it's almost worth spending years in a castle suffering from six afflictions.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Looking for Players ([7 to 8] of [8 to 10])
Post by: tompliss on December 31, 2014, 03:23:05 am
So, for now, we should count 8 nations (including 1 sea nation). With ~15 provinces per player, that would mean a map with 105+15 provinces.
As said before, sharivar is too big for us, I think.
The asoiaf map (named Westeros) seems too big too (and I can't find it in the map list for Dom4 anyway).
Paraganos seems cool (and there is a wraparound version (http://z7.invisionfree.com/Dom3mods/index.php?showtopic=1417)), but it hasn't any river, mountain passes, nor caves.
Tyrande will too easily be clustered for the land nations giving me (the sea nation) nearly twice their province number.

Peliwyr may be a bit too big for us (~18 provinces per player).

Judging by its preview image, map with fitting size :
The Desert eye (108+17, double wrap), even if I doubt that it has caves or impassable links (and maybe no river/mountain pass), as it comes from Dom3.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Looking for Players ([7 to 8] of [8 to 10])
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on December 31, 2014, 06:55:07 am
Keep in mind Albright's (rather valid I think) complaint about Peliwyr that while 15 (give or take a few) per player is what you usually want, Peliwyr is cramped enough that you need a little extra space to avoid early forced wars. 8 players with 1 UW nation has been in my experience the best setup for that map.

Taking a quick look at my downloaded maps, I'd be happy to play on Peliwyr (http://www.desura.com/games/dominions-4-thrones-of-ascensions/forum/thread/peliwyr-12718-wraparound), Leaking Land (http://z7.invisionfree.com/Dom3mods/index.php?showtopic=2093) or Parganos (wraparound). This is based purely on their province count and province placement (UW in particular).
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Looking for Players ([7 to 8] of [8 to 10])
Post by: tompliss on December 31, 2014, 07:09:48 am
Oh yeah, Leaking land (124+11, horizontal wrap) looks cute and fun :)


PS: If you want to test/play with Leaking Land, go to the bottom of the thread linked by Delta Foxtrot, there is a version with many updated provincesl links
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Looking for Players ([7 to 8] of [8 to 10])
Post by: Akhier the Dragon hearted on December 31, 2014, 09:35:39 am
That map looks good. I will take a look at it when I get home.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Looking for Players ([7 to 8] of [8 to 10])
Post by: Akhier the Dragon hearted on December 31, 2014, 10:02:17 pm
   Okay it seems like a good map. Unless someone wants to voice against it with something that can't just be fixed by editing the map a little then we could definitely go with it. I will note that I have only been testing it with my nation as I need the experience with their start so I don't know how Atlantis will like the map.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Looking for Players ([7 to 8] of [8 to 10])
Post by: tompliss on January 01, 2015, 07:09:48 am
I have tested it with R'Lyeh to be able to cast Eyes of God quickly and see whether the starting positions were good, and it was good enough to expand with R'Lyeh.
Big independent provinces can be a problem more easily with Atlantis than with a Land Nation in this map, but I think I can handle.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Looking for Players ([7 to 8] of [8 to 10])
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on January 02, 2015, 04:50:24 pm
Are we going to play without thrones? If we use them, which ones and how many?

Something like 6/10 or 7/10 thrones required for victory, all level 1's or level 2's? I wouldn't mind trying a game without thrones, seeing how I've never played one, but what do you guys thing?

edit:
I've ran some tests, and a few of my starts have been down to three neighbouring provinces, including a throne. This doesn't bother me, but as a result I'd like to request that we use level 1 thrones as those post the least obstacle to expansion.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Looking for Players ([7 to 8] of [8 to 10])
Post by: tompliss on January 02, 2015, 05:26:06 pm
Oh ? that's weird. You've been using 8 players incl. a sea nation ?
Before saying I was OK with Leaking, I played it twice, rushing eyes of God with R'lyeh, and every time, the starting provinces had 4 land neighbours (except Agartha when randomized because of the cave thing), and they were "far" away from each other ^^"

Anyway, I'd prefer thrones, and I don't mind if there are only lvl 1s. Also, 6 out of 10 thrones present sounds good. Just a bit more than the number of players, and enough thrones to keep it interesting without lasting until it's a 1v1 :)
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Looking for Players ([7 to 8] of [8 to 10])
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on January 02, 2015, 05:34:42 pm
8 players, I used random land nation for akirilus but everything else was as people have claimed them.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Looking for Players ([7 to 8] of [8 to 10])
Post by: Akhier the Dragon hearted on January 02, 2015, 07:49:21 pm
   The default with 8 players is to have thrones with 7 lv1 and 1 lv2 but having 10 lv1 and needing 6 sounds good. As for going with or without I must admit I like having a victory condition that actually happens as most of the games I have admined ended by loss of desire to play from what I remember.

   Oh, and Delta Foxtrot, are you in then? I still have you down as a maybe at the moment. If you are in then we just need akirilus to decide on a nation and we are good to start soon. Probably Monday or so as this weekend is busy for me.

Edit: Oh and I have been testing with the nations we have decided and a random myself as well. All I can say is that I can't wait till seeing another nation doesn't mean I have to dump 30 points into PD just so they don't insta agro me. (AI, "Whats this, you only have 1 pd here? Why you must be inviting me in!")
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Looking for Players ([7 to 8] of [8 to 10])
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on January 02, 2015, 07:56:01 pm
Definitely in. Monday sounds good for me. I've got a few builds I'm juggling but I can decide something by the end of the weekend.

It's a taste thing, but I don't like mixing level 1's and 2's (or 3's if wouldn't refuse to play with them in the first place). It makes things a bit too unpredictable as you can't easily tell which throne is which. With equal throne values it's easy to calculate how close everyone is to winning and plan accordingly.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Full Up, Last minute choices being made
Post by: Akhier the Dragon hearted on January 02, 2015, 08:03:20 pm
   Okay, so with this 10 lv1 thrones sounds like a good way to go. As for when we start Monday would be nice but of course we do still have one nation needing to be decided and if anyone has a reason they need to more time now would be a good point to speak up.

Edit: Okay I think I might need to go through the map and add a few more no starts provinces. Just got a start in 111 which only has 2 connections.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Full Up, Last minute choices being made
Post by: Akhier the Dragon hearted on January 02, 2015, 09:14:02 pm
   I went and checked the map over. Before I upload this anywhere if someone would like to check my work I will include my changes below along with the contents of the .map file so it is easy to look into. I am mostly sure I caught all the bad starts that where left (though with so many in there might have been left for a reason but neither here nor there) as well as a couple spots which the map indicated where a terrain type but wasn't actually so. Also I caught 3 instances of missing connections which for a wraparound map on only the 2nd edit is quite decent from what I have seen.

Code: (leakingland Changelog for v2 to v3) [Select]
Nostart added to 1, 8, 10, 13, 16, 27, 30, 31, 46, 53, 61, 78, 87, 89, 106, 111, 123, 127, 129, and 134
Mountain added to 47
Swamp added to 102
Connections added between 4 to 10, 29 to 34, and 100 to 112
Spoiler: leakingland.map (click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Full Up, Last minute choices being made
Post by: Criptfeind on January 03, 2015, 12:22:07 am
So, I picked this game up on the big steam sale, and although I'm obviously still really really really bad, after a few AI games I feel like I sorta almost know what is going on. If you guys are still accepting new players (and wouldn't mind a total newbie) I'd love to join. As C'tis if possible. (Although I've been told that EA C'tis is not the easiest to play, so I'd likely lose even harder. But who can resist lizard necromancers?)
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: No Longer Accepting Players
Post by: Akhier the Dragon hearted on January 03, 2015, 01:12:03 am
   We could probably fit you in and I would definitely like to include you. The map we are currently thinking of using could fit 9 at exactly 15 provinces to a player though I would like others opinions on whether this will work as I don't have much experience beyond the slight testing I have done (and of course we could always use a different map). For now I will mark you down as in with C'tis and we will see where that gets us.

   Oh and for those hopeful out there who may still want to join we are somewhat full right now. I would love to include more but we are at the edge of my limit so I must say this game is no longer accepting players. Even if someone drops we would only be back down to 8 players.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: No Longer Accepting Players
Post by: Criptfeind on January 03, 2015, 01:17:08 am
If you can't fit me in, no harm. (I actually missed the title change, sorry!) I don't wanta overcrowd the game.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: No Longer Accepting Players
Post by: tompliss on January 03, 2015, 03:13:39 am
I wouldn't mind another player.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: No Longer Accepting Players
Post by: Akhier the Dragon hearted on January 03, 2015, 06:58:44 am
   Yeah, 9 is a decent size when one nation is in the water. The biggest concern is the map itself. Anyway, all the other rounds I have run except the first has had 10 players. The specific number doesn't matter as much as the players themselves (up to a certain point of course). What matters right now is if we need a different map as that does matter (sometimes more than the player count).
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: No Longer Accepting Players
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on January 03, 2015, 08:08:10 am
9 is still within the realm of manageable game size. I also believe this is somewhat of a mixed skill game, so a newbie isn't out of place.

I'd say the skill difference was much larger in my first game, and I went with Vanarus of all things (like EA C'tis, it's fairly mage heavy nation that rewards people who can manoeuvre the magic system). C'tis isn't the easiest for a newbie to pick up, but I feel that you should first and foremost pick something that thematically interests you. Mechanics can be learned but thematics are what suck you in.

edit:
Criptfeind:
I don't know what you've tried, but you might want to try a few different builds for early game. One with a cheap, high dominion, imprisoned pretender and maxed scales. Other with an awake dom9 dragon with X4 (I'd recommend either the F or W variant).
There are other ways to go about it, but in my experience those are the most straightforward. Scales really supercharge your national assets due to extra gold&resources while a dragon helps a lot with expansion (I won round 408 with LA C'tis using an awake dragon).

The dragon strat is all eggs in one basket kind of thing, so you definitely want to try it a few times to get a good feel for how and what you can take on. While it's technically an early game boost at the expense of later game, the fact that you can emerge as the biggest nation early on effectively makes up for the worse scales you have to take to afford it.
Scales is better if you can pull off satisfactory expansion with just national troops. So you want to try both a few times and compare your performance.
There are other builds with dormant gods and specific paths to achieve certain things, but those two builds are really the most straightforward and simple while still being quite effective.

I would seriously advice against a bless or rainbow build. Rainbows are difficult to pull off with the current game and newbies in particular would struggle to make optimal use of them. Next patch is supposed to reprice the pretenders to make rainbows more viable, but that's in the future. Bless strats are among the easy, straightforward ones, but C'tis doesn't have any sacreds worth blessing so you might as well ignore it.

Some worthwhile research targets for C'tis:
Alteration 6 - Darkness, nerfs most units but demons and undead. Your mages can summon plenty of undead.
Enchantment 3-5 - Raise Skeletons/Horde of Skeletons, the abovementioned undead.
Evocations 5 - Shadow Blast and Stellar Cascades. SB costs a gem to cast and if it fails to break target MR it does nothing. On the flipside it has a huge AOE and you can forge spell focus and void eyes for a D4 sauromancer to boost their magic penetration. Also note that while humans have base MR 10 (Ulm have only 9), most fantastic races have higher. So it's situational, but if you end up fighting a human nation, consider shadow blast.
Stellar Cascades is spammable by your S1N1 mages (either communion them or have someone cast Light of the North Star). Cascades does irresistible fatigue damage with a decent AOE. It doesn't kill anything by itself, but fatigued units are easier to crit among other things. (I had a lot of success with massed S2 mages spamming cascades in round 402).
Thaumaturgy 1 - the abovementioned communion master/slave spells.

Do note that I've never played EA C'tis, and I've only played one games as LA C'tis, but those are some basics you might not be aware of.

Oh and if you're not aware of it, there's this tool (I know it's in the OP, I'm assuming no one reads them):
http://larzm42.github.io/dom4inspector/
It's basically a web browser based civpedia. It has all the items, spells and units (filterable by nation or other parameters). Very useful reference tool.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: No Longer Accepting Players
Post by: Criptfeind on January 03, 2015, 09:20:37 am
Thanks for the info :), I'll be sure to take it into account.

I've not tested out starts as much as I should probably, but I was thinking of going with the big scales idea, mostly because independents seem to die really quickly to chariots. Even if they are pretty expensive and won't help me fight against a lot of the player nations, even a couple of them seem to make taking independent land really easy/cheap. Although I don't know 100% what pretender to go with. A friend advised me to try out a oracle with 9 astral, to protect my shamans from Magic Duel, and in the very late game to get master enslave. I've tried it, and it seems okay (although just against AI, and I've not gotten to the point where I can cast master enslave). Although Couatls (if I can get that high of conjuration, just against the AI I've been getting Couatls roughly around the same time my imprisioned pretender broke out... Although I didn't even think about these evocations and alterations you have listed. So to get them would slow me down on that front...) along with a bunch of communion slaves seem to be able to do roughly the same thing, so I'm not sure if it's quite worth it.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: No Longer Accepting Players
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on January 03, 2015, 09:37:59 am
An Oracle to protect your shamans from Mind Duel? That's... It should be the other way around. Other people should be taking high astral to protect their guys from your shamans Mind Dueling them to death. After all, C'tis has awesome cheap shamans, and you'll probably be recruiting a ton of them for research and communions. Which means that you'll have plenty to sacrifice if you wanted to. Such as if someone took 4 or less Astral on their pretender, making them vulnerable to Mind Duel. Or if people had expensive STR guys with a smattering of Astral.

In other words don't worry about Mind Duel. You'll probably be using it against other players more than they'll be using it against you.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: No Longer Accepting Players
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on January 03, 2015, 09:39:10 am
Couatls are pretty great, but for C'tis they're lvl 7 research which is really pushing into the lategame phase. It's good to plan for them, but it's very possibly you'll be killed before you reach first level 7 (remember that research cost increases exponentially, going from lvl 6 to 7 costs more than going from 0 to 5).

edit:
And Couatls alone aren't great. But they fly and have high N and S magic. In order for Couatls to be great you need to have great spells for them to cast first.

edit2:
You can either reach 1x lvl 7, or 3x lvl5 research school. That's a lot of utility to give up if you rush Couatls. You certainly want Couatls if the game goes on long enough, but I personally would not prioritize them. They might be my first lvl 7 school, but I'd want plenty of supporting magic before hitting that.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: No Longer Accepting Players
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on January 03, 2015, 09:49:19 am
As well as plenty of shamans to act as.communion slaves for them. Coutals are much more impressive when they're S7N7 and don't have to worry about fatigue. What I'm trying to say is that I think that Lizard Shamans are awesome and I’m disappointed that LA C'tis doesn't get them.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: No Longer Accepting Players
Post by: Hellheart on January 03, 2015, 11:07:25 pm
So...are we starting soon? Akrilius can choose a nation during the Pretender submission process, correct?

I'm suffering from Ulm withdrawal, which happens whenever more than half of my games aren't as EA Ulm
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: No Longer Accepting Players
Post by: Akhier the Dragon hearted on January 03, 2015, 11:19:54 pm
Yes though I would like akrilius to post here in some form, even if not to declare a nation as the post to join was the most recent post made. Though probably Monday will start it one way or another.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: No Longer Accepting Players
Post by: Hellheart on January 04, 2015, 12:47:59 am
He's on my Steam friends list. He's usually hard to get ahold of on weekends, but he's still aware this game exists and has been looking at nations.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: No Longer Accepting Players
Post by: Akhier the Dragon hearted on January 04, 2015, 01:14:08 am
Cool, I wasn't too worried as he has participated in some of the other Dom4 games. With this and the fact that he will probably pop back in on Monday since it will no longer be the weekend I don't see why I can't set it up. Sadly tomorrow I will be away from my comp and I need to go to sleep now so it will probably go up tomorrow night.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: No Longer Accepting Players
Post by: akirilus on January 04, 2015, 01:18:38 am
Just reaffirming my interest in the game - I am still thinking about a nation to play, so will probably end up picking something that isn't claimed already during pretender submission.  or if inspiration strikes me sooner, I'll post here.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: No Longer Accepting Players
Post by: E. Albright on January 04, 2015, 03:23:07 am
Quote from: Delta Foxtrot on January 03, 2015, 08:08:10 am
Bless strats are among the easy, straightforward ones, but C'tis doesn't have any sacreds worth blessing so you might as well ignore it.

One halfcorrection to this. EA C'tis indeed doesn't have troops worth a bless for their own sake, but their commanders love nature and earth blesses both major and minor, to the point where I'd not rule out an otherwise-impractical N9EX or suchlike. It's not mandatory, and you can fake it to a lesser degree with nothing, but being able to fire up turbocommunions on your Shamans is very, very evil - N9 allows up to 6 masters to cast indefinitely with no risk of killing off any number of slaves (2 or 20) no matter how long the fight lasts nor how ridiculously tiring their spells are, and ensure that modest increases over 7 will generally kill off slaves too slowly for them to die in all but the longest fights.

(Modest "cheap" turbocommunions of nothing but shamans and some/a blesser are actually pretty impressive properly deployed, and you can have e.g. "unbalanced" communions with ratios like 6+2 or 8+2 dropping Cascades sustainably from turn 2 w/o bothering with LotNS if need be (though obviously you'd prefer more than just 2 slaves if at all possible))
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: No Longer Accepting Players
Post by: Hellheart on January 04, 2015, 05:10:12 am
Wouldn't any bless higher than maybe N9E4 make it difficult to expand with Chariots without running neutral or worse on income, though?

Your basic Lizardmen isn't quite as hopeless as your basic monkey troop, but I feel like you're still playing Russian Roulette with Morale even if you're running Slaves under a Taskmaster.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: No Longer Accepting Players
Post by: E. Albright on January 04, 2015, 05:54:12 am
I'd be disinclined to exceed N9E4, yes. But on the subject of morale, a fachioneer under a Lizard Lord is as good as an Elite Warrior under a Taskmaster, as is line infantry under a King, and that's without considering potential Fanaticism. And so long as you avoid line formations, you should be able to throw one or two Sacred Serpents into a formation to boost it one more. Morale is not my formost concern with C'tis during expansion. You've got tools to overcome your 1-pt national handicap.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: No Longer Accepting Players
Post by: Hellheart on January 04, 2015, 07:03:18 am
For some reason I missed that the Serpents have Standard. That offsets the morale malus by itself.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: No Longer Accepting Players
Post by: Criptfeind on January 04, 2015, 02:10:53 pm
It seems that a imprisoned Neteret of Joy can be taken with Nature9 Earth4 with order3, production3, heat3, and two negative things at dominion 8. If I wanted to go with the funny "bless yon shamans" approach, would that be how I do it then?
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: No Longer Accepting Players
Post by: E. Albright on January 04, 2015, 02:35:00 pm
Something like that, yeah. Don't forget it also makes your Shrouds quite nice.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: No Longer Accepting Players
Post by: Akhier the Dragon hearted on January 04, 2015, 08:48:32 pm
I was about to put the game up when I realized no one commented on my map changes. Did anyone check what I did out?
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: No Longer Accepting Players
Post by: Criptfeind on January 04, 2015, 09:04:16 pm
Sorry, I don't really even know enough about maps to comment. But I will anyway! It looks very nice compared to the default maps. Although I guess it will not wrap both ways? It looks like it has a lot of hidden underground passages, which is something I've not seen before. Also there isn't a white dot in the east most cave, that I can see at least. I might just be missing it.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: No Longer Accepting Players
Post by: Akhier the Dragon hearted on January 04, 2015, 09:10:22 pm
   Thank you for taking a look but for this I must admit I do need someone with experience in maps because I am asking about the edits to the .map file. I basically fixed some provinces that didn't have proper connections and added more no starts. The thing is I haven't done this much so I wanted others opinions.

Anyway since it was on a previous page the changes are such

Code: (leakingland Changelog for v2 to v3) [Select]
Nostart added to 1, 8, 10, 13, 16, 27, 30, 31, 46, 53, 61, 78, 85, 87, 89, 106, 111, 123, 127, 129, and 134
Mountain added to 47
Swamp added to 102
Connections added between 4 to 10, 29 to 34, and 100 to 112
Spoiler: leakingland.map (click to show/hide)
[/quote]

Edit: added nostart to 85
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: No Longer Accepting Players
Post by: E. Albright on January 04, 2015, 10:06:38 pm
Um. If I were editing that map, all the water but 95 would be nostarted, as that's the only one that gives even 3 water-water connections. At a very bare minimum I'd nostart 85 and its awful one water connection.

Past that I see nothing glaring.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: No Longer Accepting Players
Post by: Akhier the Dragon hearted on January 04, 2015, 10:16:56 pm
   Ah, Good catch with that. I completely missed that it had only one other sea connection. Admittedly that does reduce a water nation to 3 starts but really. Not like we where going to be guessing on where to find Atlantis. Unlike our planet this map isn't mostly water. Looking at it I probably mistook the island in the middle of it for another sea connection. I have made the changes to my files.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: No Longer Accepting Players
Post by: Akhier the Dragon hearted on January 05, 2015, 01:14:58 pm
Okay I have the game up now (http://www.llamaserver.net/gameinfo.cgi?game=Bay12GamesRound414). You can start submitting your pretenders. We are using leakinglands v3 which you can get Here (http://www.llamaserver.net/gameinfo.cgi?game=Bay12GamesRound414)
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: No Longer Accepting Players
Post by: Criptfeind on January 05, 2015, 09:45:27 pm
Alright. I've submitted my dude.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: No Longer Accepting Players
Post by: dennislp3 on January 05, 2015, 11:07:22 pm
Submitted!
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: No Longer Accepting Players
Post by: Elfeater on January 05, 2015, 11:20:32 pm
Making my dude, will submit quickly.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: No Longer Accepting Players
Post by: tompliss on January 06, 2015, 02:02:45 am
Atlantis is a go :)
(since yesterday)

ah ah, 414 is laucnhing faster than 413 ! :p
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: 6 of 9 Pretenders Submitted
Post by: Akhier the Dragon hearted on January 06, 2015, 03:21:17 am
Mine is now in. Also to be fair to 413 I have admined 3 previous games before.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: 6 of 9 Pretenders Submitted
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on January 06, 2015, 03:26:59 am
Well they are going with a randomly genned map. It's a lot easier to just whip out a few premade ones and say "'tis pretty ain't it!" :P

I'll get mine in in a few hours. I'll first do 410 turn and then waffle a bit. I'm usually asleep for a few hours more anyway so I'm taking the difference to not regret anything two months down the line.

edit:
Pangaea is in.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: 7 of 9 Pretenders Submitted
Post by: akirilus on January 06, 2015, 09:50:46 am
Pretender sent in.  I decided to give Fomoria proper a shot, given that I am playing with their troops in round 12.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: 8 of 9 Pretenders Submitted
Post by: Akhier the Dragon hearted on January 06, 2015, 01:54:51 pm
Okay, just one more and we could get the game started. Also with the final nation decided the following is a list of everyone that is playing as well as what nation they are:


List of Players:
Akhier (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?action=profile;u=15375)[Machaka]
EnigmaticHat (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?action=profile;u=40639)[Niefelheim]
Hellheart (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?action=profile;u=108778)[Ulm]
tompliss (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?action=profile;u=20610)[Atlantis]
Elfeater (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?action=profile;u=42633)[Eremor]
dennislp3 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?action=profile;u=17690)[Lanka]
Delta Foxtrot (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?action=profile;u=56359)[Pangaea]
Criptfeind (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?action=profile;u=17759)[C'tis]
akirilus (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?action=profile;u=109238)[Fomoria]
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Game Started
Post by: Akhier the Dragon hearted on January 06, 2015, 06:55:28 pm
And the game has started
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Game Started
Post by: tompliss on January 07, 2015, 02:04:01 am
Wow, started !
Not the worst position possible, not the best position possible. Atlantis has hope ! :D
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Game Started
Post by: Akhier the Dragon hearted on January 07, 2015, 02:16:57 am
   To be perfectly honest you had exactly 3 possible provinces to start in. Then again you start in the water so we where not exactly going to have to guess where you where. You probably are lucky that the one water province with only 1 other water connection that still wasn't nostart was caught. Knowing how the world likes irony you probably would have started there.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Game Started
Post by: tompliss on January 07, 2015, 02:28:03 am
Eh, it would have been a challenge, especially if there would have been a throne neighboring it ! :D
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Game Started
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on January 07, 2015, 11:18:38 am
I got a good starting position, but it could've been better for Pangaea.

Shame we can't see each others' pretenders and titles, it's always nice to ogle at those.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Game Started
Post by: econtadini on January 07, 2015, 12:59:12 pm
I am the One Playing Niefelheim, I found the game on llamaserver and joined without seeing this topic, I just saw that it was 8/9 players and sent my pretender. I am sorry if I took someones place in this game. the Niefelheim race pick was just a coincidence with EnigmaticHat, i had chosed Niefelheim because Pangaea was already taken.
I would be very happy to continue playing this game, because its my first MP
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Game Started
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on January 07, 2015, 01:08:36 pm
Sounds like a restart is in order, assuming Enigmatic Hat is still playing.

@econtadini:
You don't just join random games on llamaserver, that's not how it's done.
How things go is that on a forum (here, desura, any other community out there) someone makes a thread for the game. People post and discuss the settings. Then a game is created and people who already posted their interest send pretenders in.
It's disruptive and bad manners for an outsider to just barge in and claim a spot anonymously like you did.

But I suppose it's not obvious for a first timer. You're free to join any other game that will most likely get hosted here in the future, assuming you clearly post in the thread before the game is created.
Title: Dominions 4 Round 14: Confusion Reigns, Game Paused
Post by: Akhier the Dragon hearted on January 07, 2015, 01:25:15 pm
   I must admit this is quite something. I must admit the fact that EnigmaticHat didn't respond to the fact that the thread has had multiple replies about it being started since the subject line changed to "Game Started" is a little odd. I am going to PM him to get what he thinks. Also I would like to get everyones opinions as well.

   Oh and Econtadini, while what Delta Foxtrot said is all true I would like to add a little bit onto it. When you want to join a game on a forum (any forum really) look around it first and post some. Here at Bay12 if you don't have enough posts your titled an "Escaped Lunatic" and until you have posted enough to be a Bay Watcher you would likely be turned away from games. Other forums may have similar post requirements or they may not but at the least by looking around you can get a feel for what the place it like and how the game will probably be.

Finally I have turned quick hosting off and even if we don't restart the game is paused till we get this figured out.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Confusion Reigns, Game Paused
Post by: econtadini on January 07, 2015, 01:34:26 pm
@Delta Foxtrot

I am really sorry, Thats why I explained everything,I didn't mean to take his place and spoil the game, I just wated to play a MP game  :'( .

someone please contact Enigmatic Hat
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Confusion Reigns, Game Paused
Post by: Akhier the Dragon hearted on January 07, 2015, 01:40:19 pm
   Don't feel too bad, it is somewhat annoying for us but you didn't know. Also when you did figure it out you came here and told us instead of silently continuing to play. The first turn basically isn't even done so very little interruption will happen because of it. The game is really fun and a lot of that fun is somewhat locked up in the multiplayer experience. We don't blame you and in the future I won't mind if you join games though as I mentioned above, you should probably take a look around the forum if you plan to do so. We are a particular bunch here.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Confusion Reigns, Game Paused
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on January 07, 2015, 01:46:18 pm
I'm in favour of restarting so EnigmaticHat can play. If something's come up and he can't play, then I don't really care either way as long as we play the agreed map with agreed settings with 8 or 9 players.

Though I must say I've seen this kind of thing happening more often lately, probably due to larger playerbase. Llamaserver page isn't exactly clear about the fact that it's bad manners to just join any game you see.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Confusion Reigns, Game Paused
Post by: Akhier the Dragon hearted on January 07, 2015, 01:50:01 pm
   The problem isn't a bigger player base but rather a bigger base of players who bought the game without having found it through a forum. I got the game because of Bay12, people now have gotten the game from steam sales and such so they don't have a native group.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Confusion Reigns, Game Paused
Post by: Elfeater on January 07, 2015, 04:31:06 pm
I say restart
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Confusion Reigns, Game Paused
Post by: akirilus on January 07, 2015, 05:50:37 pm
If Enigmatic Hat still wants to play, I think we absolutely should restart.  If he has lost interest or is unable to participate - well, this might be unorthodox, but I'd say no harm no foul.  Basically, I don't mind either way, but we should definitely include the Hat if he's around.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Confusion Reigns, Game Paused
Post by: dennislp3 on January 07, 2015, 08:43:19 pm
I concur with the above
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Confusion Reigns, Game Paused
Post by: Akhier the Dragon hearted on January 08, 2015, 12:45:27 am
Well I have sent him a PM early when I posted about it so I will give him a day or so before I force the issue one way or another.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Confusion Reigns, Game Paused
Post by: EnigmaticHat on January 08, 2015, 02:39:34 am
Really sorry guys, got distracted by real life.  I'll play if that's still an option, if not no hard feelings.

Also that's a strange coincidence but it kind of makes sense.  Neifelhiem is a popular race AFAIK, especially with new players like me.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Confusion Reigns, Game Paused
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on January 08, 2015, 07:23:53 am
Sounds like a restart then. I don't know if Akhier has done them before, but there's an un-start option in the admin options.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Confusion Reigns, Game Paused
Post by: Akhier the Dragon hearted on January 08, 2015, 10:38:15 am
The game has been unstarted and deleted the Niefelheim that was there right now. EnigmaticHat, you can submit your pretender now.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Confusion Reigns, Game Paused
Post by: EnigmaticHat on January 08, 2015, 12:23:35 pm
Ok, I'll do that now.  Thanks for your patience.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Restarted for Greater Justice
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on January 09, 2015, 04:18:23 am
Having no idea what indies I faced then or now, I'm happier with this starting position.

Let the games begin!
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Restarted for Greater Justice
Post by: tompliss on January 09, 2015, 04:31:45 am
Quote from: Delta Foxtrot on January 09, 2015, 04:18:23 am
Having no idea what indies I faced then or now
... You attacked blindly the first turn ?!?
I don't do that even when I have a dragon pretender...
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Restarted for Greater Justice
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on January 09, 2015, 04:36:31 am
I specifically did not attack. I had no idea then. I have no idea now. I'd have some if I attacked.

Also I find it's fairly safe to blind attack with a dragon if you pick the right province. Swamps have shamans, they curse you. Forests have blood henge druids. Farms have lots of heavy cavalry.
I mostly attack mountains since they have either crappy tribals or barbarians. Barbarians are dangerous if they melee you, but it's fairly simple to test out a good scripting to get that first dragon breath on barbarians, they usually rout after that.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Restarted for Greater Justice
Post by: Akhier the Dragon hearted on January 09, 2015, 09:07:45 pm
Dang it, I forgot to rename my dude this time around. Supposed to be called Rhydon because Pokemon.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Restarted for Greater Justice
Post by: dennislp3 on January 10, 2015, 11:57:12 am
So bad news...my main hard drive went out and I don't know when ny computer will be up again...may not be until I can get a tax refund
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Restarted for Greater Justice
Post by: Akhier the Dragon hearted on January 10, 2015, 12:49:07 pm
So is this game cursed or something? Anyway what does everyone want to do about this?
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Restarted for Greater Justice
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on January 10, 2015, 12:55:17 pm
How long a wait are we talking about? I suppose I'd be ok with letting this game lie in wait for a week, but if it's going to take significantly longer than that I'd be partial to restarting (again :P) with one less player (or if we get a quick joiner who fits the agreed game parameters then that's fine too).

As I said earlier in the thread, I need to bail out by the end of May if this game ends up taking that long. If it weren't for that I wouldn't mind waiting a while longer, but I'd really like to play here and I'd really like to play here through the end.

And yes, this is probably the unluckiest game I've been in despite furiously PBEMing the entire 2014.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Restarted for Greater Justice
Post by: tompliss on January 10, 2015, 02:02:50 pm
dennislp3 said he has no computer to play Dominion, so yeah, I wouldn't mind a restart...
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Restarted for Greater Justice
Post by: Hellheart on January 10, 2015, 05:55:32 pm
Quote from: dennislp3 on January 10, 2015, 11:57:12 am
...may not be until I can get a tax refund

Is a huge red flag that means we need to restart without him. You need to file your return before you get your refund...which generally comes something like 1.5 to 2 months after the return is filed.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Restarted for Greater Justice
Post by: dennislp3 on January 10, 2015, 07:43:23 pm
I am getting it fixed tonight hopefully...give me til tomorrow to try and get something working...went ahead and got a new Hard Drive coming Wednesday and will use a backup one I have until then
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Restarted for Greater Justice
Post by: Hellheart on January 10, 2015, 08:50:14 pm
Well, nevermind then!
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Restarted for Greater Justice
Post by: dennislp3 on January 10, 2015, 11:55:25 pm
Alright...my PC is up...will have to reinstall everything when the new hard drive comes in but until then I am using an old one
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Restarted for Greater Justice
Post by: Criptfeind on January 14, 2015, 09:13:54 am
I see one of your dominions coming towards my land. Hello presumably new friend. (And or deadly life long enemy to the death)

Also since most times we can't see more then adjacent provinces, if two people try to take the same province on the same turn, do they fight I'm wondering? That could be interesting...

Also I can't tell for sure, but I think dennislp3 might have missed his turn, I hope he's okay. If you miss a turn do your dudes just do nothing for that turn, or does the AI take over for a tick?
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Restarted for Greater Justice
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on January 14, 2015, 09:26:31 am
If you miss a turn then no orders are carried out, except for those set on repeat such as research or patrolling. Which is bad but much better than letting the AI take over for a turn, given how terrible it can be in SP.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Restarted for Greater Justice
Post by: tompliss on January 14, 2015, 09:49:58 am
And yeah, you can see the staling log : http://www.llamaserver.net/doAdminAction.cgi?game=Bay12GamesRound414&action=showstales
Lanka staled.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Restarted for Greater Justice
Post by: Akhier the Dragon hearted on January 14, 2015, 10:12:59 am
Darn it. Okay what do we want to do about it. (games cursed dang it)
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Restarted for Greater Justice
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on January 14, 2015, 10:52:05 am
I'd prefer if we just kept on playing, assuming dennislp3 is still willing and able to play the game. If that's not the case then... I'm not really feeling like voting between AI and subbing at this point. Do whatever, for once it's not me that's adminning a game :P

Quote from: Criptfeind on January 14, 2015, 09:13:54 am
Also since most times we can't see more then adjacent provinces, if two people try to take the same province on the same turn, do they fight I'm wondering? That could be interesting...

It's randomly chosen which side attacks the indies, then the other side attacks whoever won the previous fight.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Restarted for Greater Justice
Post by: dennislp3 on January 14, 2015, 11:07:10 am
Yes apologies about the lack of communication. I have been trying to but for some reason the game refuses to recognize the save when I make it. I think it is because I forgot to redownload the map. Just carry on as one skipped turn wont kill me. I am hoping to get it working today. Sorry for the issues
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Restarted for Greater Justice
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on January 14, 2015, 11:10:45 am
Let Akhier know if you keep having issues and require more time, I'm sure the lot of us won't mind a postponement if it's used to fix technical issues.

And yes, I'm pretty sure you need the map we use (leaking lands) and any mods as well (none). Link for the map should be in the opening post.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Restarted for Greater Justice
Post by: Akhier the Dragon hearted on January 14, 2015, 11:22:14 am
The first post has a link to the map we are using. Also if you suspect you will miss a time period at any point just post here. Far better we postpone the time limit by 24 hours then end up having people stall.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Restarted for Greater Justice
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on January 14, 2015, 01:59:15 pm
Hmph, during my tests Pangaean starting army could usually handle three provinces before expiring but this time they only got one :(

Oh well, it's not like they were the brunt of my expansion effort.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Restarted for Greater Justice
Post by: dennislp3 on January 15, 2015, 08:18:32 pm
Still cant get it to work...tired of trying to fix it. Go ahead and sub or AI me
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Restarted for Greater Justice
Post by: Akhier the Dragon hearted on January 15, 2015, 09:04:24 pm
So what do people want to do then?
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Restarted for Greater Justice
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on January 15, 2015, 10:02:56 pm
We could just AI Lanka, with the knowledge that it might very well imbalance the game as the first guy neighbouring them will have an edge if they grab their cap early.

I worry finding a sub this early might be bit of a hassle (why sub to super early game as you can't even design your own pretender?), so maybe we should just restart with one less player (again)?

I don't really care, restart or AI, but I feel those are the most realistic options.

edit:
@dennislp3:
What exactly was your issue?
Based on "game refuses to recognize the save when I make it." I'm assuming you made a folder in dominions4\savedgames, but the save doesn't show up in-game, correct? Did you have any spaces in the folder name? I believe that's something that would cause it not to work.
For example my save folder for this game is called Bay12_414 and it works, but if I called it Bay12 414 it wouldn't work.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Restarted for Greater Justice
Post by: Akhier the Dragon hearted on January 15, 2015, 10:06:35 pm
   Hmm, having thought about the option of AI I must admit I play MP to get away from the AI. A sub might be hard and honestly we are only a few turns in so we can restart relatively easily still but I leave this up to all of you.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Restarted for Greater Justice
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on January 15, 2015, 10:07:24 pm
Near doubleposting for visibility:

@dennislp3:
What exactly was your issue?
Based on "game refuses to recognize the save when I make it." I'm assuming you made a folder in dominions4\savedgames, but the save doesn't show up in-game, correct? Did you have any spaces in the folder name? I believe that's something that would cause it not to work.
For example my save folder for this game is called Bay12_414 and it works, but if I called it Bay12 414 it wouldn't work.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Restarted for Greater Justice
Post by: dennislp3 on January 15, 2015, 10:50:29 pm
Yes it wasn't recognizing it even without spaces and all manner of crap I tried...no idea what the deal is
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Restarted for Greater Justice
Post by: Criptfeind on January 16, 2015, 12:46:20 am
Well, I don't mind ether way. Although at this point I'm starting to get a bit worried, didn't someone say that they had to go at the end of may? With all of these delays it doesn't seem so unlikely that the game will last until then.

Well, whatever happens, I am sure it will be fine.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Restarted for Greater Justice
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on January 16, 2015, 12:57:55 am
That was me, but that's still +4 months away. I expect this game to take about 3 months, assuming I don't die off early.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Restarted for Greater Justice
Post by: tompliss on January 16, 2015, 01:27:50 am
I'm ok with either AI Lanka or restarting (but that may be because one of my 2 neighbouring sea province is a too greatly protected throne), if we can't get dennislp3's game to work in he next days.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Restarted for Greater Justice
Post by: Hellheart on January 16, 2015, 09:22:10 am
Quote from: dennislp3 on January 15, 2015, 10:50:29 pm
Yes it wasn't recognizing it even without spaces and all manner of crap I tried...no idea what the deal is

Whether or not you have the map or any mods should not matter. If you don't have the map and you try to load the save, the game just crashes IIRC. But you can still see and try to load the save.

My gut feeling is that Dom4 doesn't recognize that as your save directory. Basic troubleshooting for this:


If that checks out fine but you still can't load the game, this is what I'd do next:


If something goes wrong with that second set of steps, back up your saves and maps and run a full uninstall and re-install of Dom4. It's possible that something's not communicating right, like a registry entry got wiped or something.

If all of that works fine, then it's almost certainly a problem with the .trn file. There's a rare bug where Llamaserver may send out a corrupt .trn file. IIRC to fix a corrupted file, the admin would need to change Lanka's e-mail address to a 3rd party or himself, trigger Llamaserver to resend the turns, then whoever got the .trn file forwards it to you. And obviously change the e-mail back to you afterwards.

Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Restarted for Greater Justice
Post by: Criptfeind on January 16, 2015, 10:56:34 am
Quote from: Delta Foxtrot on January 16, 2015, 12:57:55 am
That was me, but that's still +4 months away. I expect this game to take about 3 months, assuming I don't die off early.

Ah, that's good. I'm not sure how long multiplayer games go at all, I figured with a turn every two days that long would give us 70ish turns, which seemed like it could go ether way.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Restarted for Greater Justice
Post by: Akhier the Dragon hearted on January 16, 2015, 11:49:36 am
Oh, dennislp3, have you tried redownloading the turn file? Something may have happened when you first downloaded it.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Restarted for Greater Justice
Post by: dennislp3 on January 16, 2015, 01:19:47 pm
I will try that when I get home
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Restarted for Greater Justice
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on January 16, 2015, 08:42:08 pm
Quote from: Criptfeind on January 16, 2015, 10:56:34 am
Ah, that's good. I'm not sure how long multiplayer games go at all, I figured with a turn every two days that long would give us 70ish turns, which seemed like it could go ether way.

401 lasted about three months/54 turns for me, but I was killed off and Christmas was in the middle so it dragged a bit there. I think the game actually ended up lasting +7 months, but it had both a larger number of players, worse map and in hindsight questionable throne settings. Somewhat atypical of dom4 I believe.

402 also lasted 7 months/98 turns, I can't remember what else there was, some patching related shenanigans? It also had a bit more players than this one and a fairly high throne requirement.

408 lasted about 2 months/49 turns, it had a bit fewer players and required thrones than this one does.

Most of my games outside Bay12 have been aiming towards 408 time scale and I've been fairly happy with those.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Restarted for Greater Justice
Post by: Criptfeind on January 17, 2015, 07:38:40 pm
So what's the verdict?
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Restarted for Greater Justice
Post by: Akhier the Dragon hearted on January 17, 2015, 07:44:37 pm
   It looks like dennislp3 won't be able to continue as he hasn't sent a turn in and not posted. We are only 4 turns in so we can restart easily or just set him to AI. My personal vote is restart as I play MP to get away from the AI's.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Restarted for Greater Justice
Post by: Criptfeind on January 17, 2015, 07:48:00 pm
I'm fine with a restart. Seems pointless to have to play a whole game with AI just to save four turns.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Restarted for Greater Justice
Post by: Hellheart on January 17, 2015, 09:21:58 pm
Damn. I REALLY liked my start :(
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Restarted for Greater Justice
Post by: AlStar on January 17, 2015, 10:28:55 pm
So does that mean that you've got an open spot?
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Restarted for Greater Justice
Post by: Akhier the Dragon hearted on January 17, 2015, 10:32:52 pm
   I am going to say no. While we could fit 9 we have had a good bit of bad luck. That combined with the fact that I am more comfortable with this map fitting 8 we won't be accepting more people.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Restarted for Greater Justice
Post by: Elfeater on January 17, 2015, 10:40:17 pm
Im fine with another restart.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Re-Restarted Because the (not us) Gods Hate this Round
Post by: Akhier the Dragon hearted on January 17, 2015, 11:04:08 pm
Restarted because I hate the AI
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Re-Restarted Because the (not us) Gods Hate this Round
Post by: Hellheart on January 17, 2015, 11:10:08 pm
I'd already gotten a Lizardman province and was going to get a Crystal Amazon AND another Lizardman province. And I'd found a +75 gold site.

Expanding further was going to be one hell of a pain but it would've been so worth it.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Re-Restarted Because the (not us) Gods Hate this Round
Post by: Akhier the Dragon hearted on January 17, 2015, 11:16:37 pm
   I had a lucky start and the province strengths let me quickly capture a choke point. I was actually able to spy out EnigmaticHat as one of my neighors as well and that meant I would have had an interesting Dominion battle against him. I think I would have been able to keep my own because of the heretic units but it was going to divert a lot of my attention probably.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Re-Restarted Because the (not us) Gods Hate this Round
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on January 18, 2015, 05:18:07 am
My second start was two jumps from my first start and this third start is two more jumps from my second start.

Dat rhythm. Still a decent start, not as good as start #2, but good enough.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Re-Restarted Because the (not us) Gods Hate this Round
Post by: tompliss on January 18, 2015, 05:57:36 am
I like my new position better than the previous one. In the previous one, my first 2 conquered provinces HAD to be land ones, as Atlantis (2 sea neighbours : 1 throne with 150+ troops and a simili-pretender, one 60+ shark tritons). Now, I've got no neighbouring throne. so, good and bad, but nice enough :)
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Re-Restarted Because the (not us) Gods Hate this Round
Post by: Akhier the Dragon hearted on January 18, 2015, 09:15:00 am
   My new start is a lot less defensible then my previous one. I guess at least this time I have remembered to rename my guys so thats cool.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Re-Restarted Because the (not us) Gods Hate this Round
Post by: Criptfeind on January 18, 2015, 10:37:05 am
I'm back where I started the first game. Which is right next to where I started the second game. So. Realllly. I don't think the resets have really effected me. (Well, I guess I got a pretty sweet looking hero on my first turn the second time, but I dunno how good he really was, so eh.)
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Re-Restarted Because the (not us) Gods Hate this Round
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on January 18, 2015, 10:48:24 am
The D4 hero is pretty neat and I suppose any mage hero is useful early on for the research boost if nothing else. And you could have the undead hero do some reanimating. The magicless non-undead seems worst of the bunch, being a glorified lizard king at best. Still, 120 leadership with +1 inspirational isn't bad.

My Pangaean heroes seem ok, if only because they break me into new paths (A2 and D1).
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Re-Restarted Because the (not us) Gods Hate this Round
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on January 20, 2015, 04:29:28 am
I see Fomoria is still unsubmitted and Akirilus hasn't been online since the 18th. Maybe it's just the unprecedented troubles this game has had thus far, but I'm worried. I know there's still almost 20 hours left so we're far from PANICPANIC but I though I'd voice my concerns.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Re-Restarted Because the (not us) Gods Hate this Round
Post by: akirilus on January 20, 2015, 10:07:27 am
I just had a busy weekend (had to ask for two extensions in my other game), but I am here and intend on participating.  Just had to stretch the allotted time here (also because the second restart caught me a bit off-guard).
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Re-Restarted Because the (not us) Gods Hate this Round
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on January 20, 2015, 10:18:32 am
That's cool. Just had a sneaking feeling of "what is it THIS time?". Onwards and upwards, then.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Re-Restarted Because the (not us) Gods Hate this Round
Post by: Akhier the Dragon hearted on January 21, 2015, 11:44:29 pm
What does it say about the game that when I see the new turn file the first thing I did was go and check if someone stalled?

Edit: Oh and Ulm is taking the hall of fame by storm with 4 units in it when no one else even has 2 in it
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Re-Restarted Because the (not us) Gods Hate this Round
Post by: Hellheart on January 21, 2015, 11:50:36 pm
It should go much faster now, but when I checked a few minutes ago I was surprised that I was holding it up. So basically the same mindset.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Re-Restarted Because the (not us) Gods Hate this Round
Post by: Hellheart on January 21, 2015, 11:56:55 pm
Is it obvious that I started next to a lot of Barbarians?

Really thought I wouldn't win Sanne, but super glad I did. My expansion prospects were going to be TERRIBLE without these archer mercs.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Re-Restarted Because the (not us) Gods Hate this Round
Post by: Akhier the Dragon hearted on January 22, 2015, 12:02:12 am
I can't afford mercs because I find that early expansion for Machaka is greatly improved by dumping the starting cash into lions.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Re-Restarted Because the (not us) Gods Hate this Round
Post by: Hellheart on January 22, 2015, 12:05:24 am
Hey, if you give me your entire military I'll give you ALL of my lions.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Re-Restarted Because the (not us) Gods Hate this Round
Post by: Akhier the Dragon hearted on January 22, 2015, 12:07:25 am
Sadly I don't know where you are so I can't just "give" them to you right now.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Re-Restarted Because the (not us) Gods Hate this Round
Post by: Hellheart on January 22, 2015, 12:11:21 am
Oh well I'm over in---

...Wait a minute. You just want to know where I keep all of my lions so you can steal them without giving me anything in return!

I'm onto you.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Re-Restarted Because the (not us) Gods Hate this Round
Post by: Criptfeind on January 22, 2015, 02:20:52 am
So, not to give away where I am or anything, but do these cities have anything special in them that I should be afraid of when I attack? The past few games I avoided them because they had war elephants, but now there is this one that just says it has a bunch of really shitty independents. Do you think I can kill it?

Edit: Wait, who the heck is Dagan? "Special monsters"? Clearly he's the secret NPC boss that we need to team up to defeat.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Re-Restarted Because the (not us) Gods Hate this Round
Post by: Akhier the Dragon hearted on January 22, 2015, 02:22:35 am
All the city provinces have a large population and farms. Nice to have but they do seem to like fielding elephants from my testing as well.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Re-Restarted Because the (not us) Gods Hate this Round
Post by: Hellheart on January 22, 2015, 02:25:07 am
Dagan is a Renegade. Those are bad. You should overbid on him massively so you can kill him off to indies ASAP. For the greater good.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Re-Restarted Because the (not us) Gods Hate this Round
Post by: Criptfeind on January 22, 2015, 02:26:26 am
Sorry. Spent all my money on underwater spies. Someone else will have to take up that job.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Re-Restarted Because the (not us) Gods Hate this Round
Post by: tompliss on January 22, 2015, 02:27:28 am
Quote from: Criptfeind on January 22, 2015, 02:20:52 am
Edit: Wait, who the heck is Dagan? "Special monsters"? Clearly he's the secret NPC boss that we need to team up to defeat.
Do you mean Dagon ?
(http://puu.sh/eRpWz/a3857d7e2c.png)

Thrones provinces sometimes have a special army, with a pretender-typed random commander. They're sometimes just a bit harder to get, sometimes really hard. One with a Dagon would be a bit hard (depends on whether he was generated with magic), but I haven't seen one with a Dagon yet :/

EDIT: or do you mean Dagan, the Renegade Sage ?
Isn't he usually a mercenary ?
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Re-Restarted Because the (not us) Gods Hate this Round
Post by: Criptfeind on January 22, 2015, 02:33:39 am
Yeah, I mean Dagan, the Renegade Sage. It was just surprised to see him in the hall of fame with a different flag then everyone else, that says he is a special monster. I don't know what that means, but it was just a bit weird.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Re-Restarted Because the (not us) Gods Hate this Round
Post by: tompliss on January 22, 2015, 02:41:45 am
Oh, you didn't met him, just saw him in the HoF :D
I think the merc that aren't recruited can be seen there. Some are generated with kills and XP already, making it an even beter idea to recruit them (for some nations), since they (and their troops) will have one or two XPstars or even an heroic bonus.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Re-Restarted Because the (not us) Gods Hate this Round
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on January 22, 2015, 03:35:12 am
Yeah, some mercs start with a bunch of XP and thus show up in the hall of fame. Dagan is some sort of mage, can't remember the paths though.

Also IIRC the number of indie defenders is based on province income and farms tend to have high income, ergo many defenders. I also think that heavy cavalry indies like to show up in farmlands (knights & longbowmen in later ages definitely).

Oh and units only show up in the description if there are at least five of them. So maybe that's a province full of shitty troops, or maybe that is a province full of shitty troops and four elephants.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Re-Restarted Because the (not us) Gods Hate this Round
Post by: tompliss on January 22, 2015, 03:42:41 am
I think the "at least 5" depends on the size of the unit. So Elephants almost always are in the description.
Oh, and about Dagan, he's the renegade SAGE. So I think he's astral based, and has a research bonus.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Re-Restarted Because the (not us) Gods Hate this Round
Post by: Criptfeind on January 22, 2015, 10:11:27 am
I think I'll just take a few nearby provinces as I make some more troops so even if they have elephants I can take them...

Hum, would putting a scout inside the province give me more information? If it did, would it even be worth the effort of to get a scout since I think the only one I can get right away without a lucky find of scouts in province would be the black servant...
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Re-Restarted Because the (not us) Gods Hate this Round
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on January 22, 2015, 10:51:13 pm
Quote from: Criptfeind on January 22, 2015, 10:11:27 am
Hum, would putting a scout inside the province give me more information? If it did, would it even be worth the effort of to get a scout since I think the only one I can get right away without a lucky find of scouts in province would be the black servant...

I'm pretty sure it doesn't, but what you can do is order someone (scout or random commander, doesn't matter) with retreat orders to attack the province (remember to make sure the scout attacks and doesn't sneak). Assuming you place them in the rear they should survive and you can see the exact force composition from the battle report. It's not usually smart to waste commander turns like this (especially when you have few commanders to spare), but the difference between "elephants" and "no elephants" is pretty huge.

Also I'm fairly sure unit size doesn't matter when it comes to reporting or not reporting them. I looked around a bit and found nothing to support that claim either.

Personally I figured the "renegade sage" is just flavour text, but I googled a bit and found a merc list which shows that Dagan indeed has a "sage" chassis and S1 magic paths. Here's the list in case anyone's interested:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/168exDU3jH1cQYR6yrXjlfUx9xQzYwNKOH7HlQYT18kc/edit#gid=0

edit:
I also don't remember ever seeing elephants without slingers, so if there's slingers there's a very high chance of also being elephants.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Re-Restarted Because the (not us) Gods Hate this Round
Post by: Akhier the Dragon hearted on January 22, 2015, 11:06:00 pm
   Bigger units do get noticed (generally with some mention about them tower over the other units) though because most units are relatively small you generally only see it with special things like a pretender. Elephants are one of the earliest units you will see that does that.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Re-Restarted Because the (not us) Gods Hate this Round
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on January 23, 2015, 12:05:33 am
I ran a few quick expansion tests and attacked a province.


Slingers and Heavy Infantries it said.


Slingers and Heavy Infantries and 3 huge war elephants is what I fought.

So yeah, Elephants (or other size-6's I'm sure) aren't guaranteed to show up in the province report.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Re-Restarted Because the (not us) Gods Hate this Round
Post by: Akhier the Dragon hearted on January 23, 2015, 12:15:12 am
I could be wrong or the size limits could have been changed
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Re-Restarted Because the (not us) Gods Hate this Round
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on January 23, 2015, 12:17:37 am
It seems to be somewhat random. I checked with another province and end turned a few times. Sometimes I saw stuff, sometimes I didn't.

I'm guessing that stuff below ~5 essentially rolls a dice every turn on whether or not it's visible.

edit:
For the courtesy of our newer players I felt I might as well point out some other "hidden" indies to be mindful of:

Heavy cavalry usually show up with militia. 4 heavy cav might not be an issue to all, but they can still punch hard at your frontmost troops.
Woodsmen indies can occasionally have blood henge druids and dark vines. Dark vines are huge unbreakable blobs of HP that hit fairly hard. Druids throw Agony (AOE, low-AN damage, causes fear). They're something I try to avoid early on.
Lizardmen have shamans that can curse your units. Curse makes them more likely to get afflictions while damaged. Not a huge issue if you're expanding with massed low quality troops, but very bad if you're sporting an SC pretender or high quality sacreds.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Re-Restarted Because the (not us) Gods Hate this Round
Post by: tompliss on January 23, 2015, 01:01:07 am
There is also the faxt that the independent army changes every turn.
I don't remember whether it changes before you attack (meaning you can see an army when you order yours to attack, and fight one with more troops or less troops), but there is a chance.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Re-Restarted Because the (not us) Gods Hate this Round
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on January 23, 2015, 01:04:14 am
Nah, indie armies don't change. They're genned at game start and that's what they are.

What does change is the scout report. The variance is 50% to 200% of the troops in a province. So you might see more than there are or less, but the actual number of troops doesn't change. There's absolutely no point in waiting for a scout report to be smaller to attack.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Re-Restarted Because the (not us) Gods Hate this Round
Post by: tompliss on January 23, 2015, 02:11:50 am
oh ? Then if the preview displays elephants on  bad day, there will be elephants, even on a good day ? ... Well, that's bad news. I'll have Shark Knights in a province near my Capital one for a long time, then :/
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Re-Restarted Because the (not us) Gods Hate this Round
Post by: Hellheart on January 24, 2015, 01:47:16 am
Ah, making a play for my Lions already? I thought you'd be a little more crafty than that.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Re-Restarted Because the (not us) Gods Hate this Round
Post by: Criptfeind on January 24, 2015, 01:28:11 pm
Lions?
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Re-Restarted Because the (not us) Gods Hate this Round
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on January 24, 2015, 03:50:19 pm
Quote from: Criptfeind on January 24, 2015, 01:28:11 pm
Lions?

Reply #168 and onwards had a nice little comical tangent:
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=147069.msg5974138#msg5974138
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Re-Restarted Because the (not us) Gods Hate this Round
Post by: tompliss on January 26, 2015, 02:12:48 am
Err...

Loks like there is a problem on the Llamaserver :
Quote
Games currently running:
None
Moreover, I didn't send my 2h file, that should be due approximately now.
If we can postpone (20 hours) if the server bug delays the turn, or if we could rollback otherwise, I would be very thankful.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Re-Restarted Because the (not us) Gods Hate this Round
Post by: Hellheart on January 26, 2015, 02:30:20 am
All Llamaserver games are down. Llamabeast's SOP in this situation is to extend all of the due dates when he restores the games.

In any case, the admin noticed that you were close to staling, because the due date was extended 24 hours something like 6 hours ago. I was disappointed and figured you had PM'd him for an extension or something.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Re-Restarted Because the (not us) Gods Hate this Round
Post by: Akhier the Dragon hearted on January 26, 2015, 02:40:59 am
   I was intending to send a message but other things got in the way. Anyway I did extend it 24h when I noticed the time was coming up quickly. Of course I would like to state if anyone feels they might miss the time or even just get their turn in last minute a message of some sort to inform me would be most appreciated.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Re-Restarted Because the (not us) Gods Hate this Round
Post by: tompliss on January 26, 2015, 02:50:16 am
Yeah, I'm sorry about the delay : I played my urn but forgot the send the mail afterwards :/
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Re-Restarted Because the (not us) Gods Hate this Round
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on January 26, 2015, 04:26:12 am
Games are up again, just send your turn in tompliss and we can keep rolling.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Re-Restarted Because the (not us) Gods Hate this Round
Post by: tompliss on January 26, 2015, 05:27:47 am
I need to be at home to send the turn. I have to wait 6h30 before I'm home. :/
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Re-Restarted Because the (not us) Gods Hate this Round
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on January 26, 2015, 05:36:53 am
Didn't mean to rush :)
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Re-Restarted Because the (not us) Gods Hate this Round
Post by: Criptfeind on January 26, 2015, 03:37:03 pm
Oh hai Tompliss
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Re-Restarted Because the (not us) Gods Hate this Round
Post by: tompliss on January 26, 2015, 04:37:33 pm
Well, looks like oen nation is having a nice start...
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Re-Restarted Because the (not us) Gods Hate this Round
Post by: Akhier the Dragon hearted on January 26, 2015, 05:49:05 pm
Is the answer not me? Because I am mostly sure it isn't me  :-[
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Re-Restarted Because the (not us) Gods Hate this Round
Post by: Criptfeind on January 26, 2015, 06:04:26 pm
I would assume he's talking about me since we just met. But on the other hand, I haven't. So maybe some other person has met Atlantis!

So, I got a question that might be a bit stupid, what is the sorta, etiquette for dealing with other players? Should I be trying to like, open diplomatic channels and setting up a cease fire or something?  Should I be trying to raid his undefended provinces on our boarder? Should we fight a war?
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Re-Restarted Because the (not us) Gods Hate this Round
Post by: tompliss on January 26, 2015, 06:09:40 pm
I found out that Desura players and Bay&2 players are a bit different on that.
Basically, Diplomacy isn't binding (usually, only pure commercial trades are).

It's pretty normal to say hello when you meet a new nation, especially if you have an army near one of his, as nobody wants to loose an expansion party attacking the same indie province as his neighbour.
And about starting a war : it's usually a bad idea to start a war during the first 6-12 months, as you could spend this time getting provinces from indies, who will not attack you back. After that, all hell breaks loose ! :D
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Re-Restarted Because the (not us) Gods Hate this Round
Post by: Akhier the Dragon hearted on January 26, 2015, 06:22:00 pm
   There is a rules of conduct hidden in the OP which I will include at the end of this post. For some general ground rules it is generally polite to pm someone to negotiate with them and of course saying hello is nice. Diplo in general is fast and loose though it is important to note that people will remember if you screw them without a good reason (we understand there can be only one but you don't need to be a dick about it). There is one case where this isn't true though. If your making a trade of items/gold/gems for items/gold/gems then the agreement is sacred. This is just because there isn't a trade function but rather you just send your stuff and they send theirs.

Spoiler: Rules of Conduct (click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Re-Restarted Because the (not us) Gods Hate this Round
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on January 26, 2015, 06:31:06 pm
How things have usually gone with my games is:

Players A and B meet.
"Hi, let's kill indies and then whatever" says one.
"ok!" says the other.
*indies die*
*Player A attacks player B or C*
*Player B turtles or intervenes in the A-C conflict or attacks player D*

So I guess what I'm trying to say is you can rush someone the moment you meet them, but most people that I've seen prefer to kill indies first (more or less). Beyond that it's up to you. And yeah, diplomacy isn't binding. What is said and what is done have no need to be the same. That said most people seem to avoid outright lying, for what it's worth. I know I try to be vague enough to maintain a moral high-ish ground regardless of what I actually end up doing.

As for early aggression, people generally consider attacks to be of hostile intent regardless of province defenders (or lack of). Once a province has been flagged its under the sovereign rule of its holding nation. There are exceptions though. If you both attack a neutral province and you beat the other guy there, well, even if you did predict he'd go there and you'd kill him you didn't strictly speaking attack his province. Likewise I have seen and done some "corrective" expansion, which is when you attack another nation's province because it makes your lands more defendable (chokepoint etc.) or other reasons. Whether that's a declaration of war or not depends on how the other guy takes it and how you spin it. "I needed that farm because I have low income" is a valid reason to attack someone without warring intent. "I don't care, prepare to die" is a valid response.

Pretty much the only "sacred" thing tends to be people's cap circle, ie. the provinces immediately surrounding their capital. Taking that is not kosher. I mean you can, but pretty much everyone will consider that a declaration of war.

edit:
in addition to "lets kill indies" thing, it's not uncommon to also agree on a "fair" expansion while you're talking. "I take provinces 1, 2 and 3, you can take 4 and 5, is this satisfactory?". Of course if you are confident that your expansion parties beat the other guy's expansion parties, you might be intentionally vague or silent on the matter since you can just beat the other guy if you happen to take the same indies. Alternatively you might feel that you can take out some indies faster than the other guy. But again, you can be a bully or you can try to appear more agreeable and dependable. There's no set rule for how people act, I've seen all sorts.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Re-Restarted Because the (not us) Gods Hate this Round
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on January 26, 2015, 08:44:54 pm
Why'd Ermor hire Dagan? I don't think they have any pressing need to hire an S1.

Well I suppose he's production locked and decided to get some early RP with the gold. Fair enough.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Re-Restarted Because the (not us) Gods Hate this Round
Post by: Hellheart on January 27, 2015, 12:28:50 am
Pretty much. Not happy that I lost Farstrikers to him though, considering that I overbid enough that I expected to hold onto them.

Some players are more conciliatory and trustworthy than others. Being more open can result in stronger allies and mutual free borders which lets you focus elsewhere, but being too open to some players can result in a really nasty backstab. It's all usually very fluid and it's always good to anticipate what your opponents may do and have some contingency plans just in case.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Re-Restarted Because the (not us) Gods Hate this Round
Post by: Akhier the Dragon hearted on January 27, 2015, 01:44:23 am
   I just don't lie. I don't even twist my words all that much. If I say I won't attack you then I won't unless I inform you else-wise or you attack me. Of course while I don't twist words if I didn't say it then I didn't promise it. Though all that aside if your new to MP try to keep peaceful for at least the expansion part of the game. Honestly unless your really aggro it is always better to grab your empire before trying to grab someone elses.

Oh and I trust others until they betray me in some way. Mind this carries over between games though luckily I haven't been betrayed yet.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Re-Restarted Because the (not us) Gods Hate this Round
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on January 27, 2015, 09:23:49 am
I guess I could go into things that I consider prior to starting my first war.

1) National borders:
If I share 6 provinces with one nation, and 1 province with two other nations each, then that 6 province neighbour is both significantly more open to my attacks, as well as able to make a much wider attack at me. By contrast those 1-border neighbours will be easier to defend via that one chokepoint. Sometimes there are borders that are mostly river or mountain crossings too, which would make supporting a prolonged offensive much more difficult as well. If all other things are equal (they never are) I go after the high risk guy with whom I share the most border.
2) National rock-paper-scissors:
Different nations have different strengths, weaknesses and power curves (depends on various nebulous factors of course, but it's fairly safe to say that for ex. C'tis is a strong midgame nation with potent skelespam, but is a bit weak before that and probably won't be relatively as powerful later on). If I feel that I am relatively more powerful than my opponent at the moment, I attack. If not, I'll bide my time.
3) Power projection:
If my nation is 8 provinces wide, and most of my map-move 1 expanders are on the western edge, it's going to take 7 turns before I can bring the majority of my forces to bear. I'd rather not "waste" 7 turns like that. In that case I'd much rather attack whoever is on my western border, simply because I can start conquering (and thus getting more gems/gold from new provinces) faster.

And I suppose I could put "4) Player personality" here as well, though it doesn't factor so much into this game as I haven't played with most folks here. I generally try to avoid carrying grudges, but it is true that if someone time and time again blatantly lies to you you will remember it. Likewise someone who seems preternaturally loyal is probably someone who'll you trust a border more easily. But at the end of the day I look at the three factors above and go with those. There are no friends in this game, only temporary allies of convenience.

And a special mention to our newbie C'tis player. I'm not sure if you're familiar, but C'tissians are cold blooded. What this means is that they suffer +1 encumbrance in neutral temperature, and +3 for every cold scale thereafter. So attacking anyone with cold scales is quite dangerous as your troops and mages will pass out a lot faster. That's something you need to consider. For consolation I can mention that my first war in 408 was against a cold-3 opponent but I managed ok since I brought in a lot of mages and spammed skeletons (mages passed out, but I still got a ton of skeles out and skeletons don't mind the cold).
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Re-Restarted Because the (not us) Gods Hate this Round
Post by: Elfeater on January 28, 2015, 09:20:03 pm
Lion Guy, that was a fairly devastating defeat on that throne.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Re-Restarted Because the (not us) Gods Hate this Round
Post by: Akhier the Dragon hearted on January 28, 2015, 11:39:00 pm
Meh, Heavier opposition then expected. Also I see you.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Re-Restarted Because the (not us) Gods Hate this Round
Post by: Elfeater on January 28, 2015, 11:57:54 pm
I see you also, and please get out of my lands.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Re-Restarted Because the (not us) Gods Hate this Round
Post by: Akhier the Dragon hearted on January 29, 2015, 12:00:28 am
By "your land" do you mean the indie nation which decided I was the one true god and bowed before me?
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Re-Restarted Because the (not us) Gods Hate this Round
Post by: Elfeater on January 29, 2015, 12:02:37 am
The rivers my friend, between the rives is my land. I hold no ill will towards you and yours, but Eremor needs food, Eremor needs metal, and Eremor needs men.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Re-Restarted Because the (not us) Gods Hate this Round
Post by: Hellheart on January 29, 2015, 12:04:48 am
You don't need women? Send us the women you don't need! We'll give them swords, and they will kill all of the men.

Sounds like a fair deal to us.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Re-Restarted Because the (not us) Gods Hate this Round
Post by: Akhier the Dragon hearted on January 29, 2015, 12:06:12 am
   Sorry but as Niefelheim can tell you I can't really go the other way and up from my scouting is going to be blocked soon enough as well. I won't head farther east or anywhere much else this side of the rive but the line is drawn good sir.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Re-Restarted Because the (not us) Gods Hate this Round
Post by: Elfeater on January 29, 2015, 12:06:43 am
Eremor will keep their women, to make more men. It is like capitalism, but with more sex. Supply and baby demand.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Re-Restarted Because the (not us) Gods Hate this Round
Post by: Hellheart on January 30, 2015, 04:47:35 pm
Ermor's Pretender definitely likes men, since he's outbid me for everyone except for Sanne.

I mean, he must REALLY like men.

If you get what I'm saying.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Re-Restarted Because the (not us) Gods Hate this Round
Post by: tompliss on January 30, 2015, 05:03:34 pm
Tonight, I cry. :(
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Re-Restarted Because the (not us) Gods Hate this Round
Post by: Criptfeind on January 30, 2015, 05:47:48 pm
Uhhhhh

Whoops?

Still BFF?
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Re-Restarted Because the (not us) Gods Hate this Round
Post by: tompliss on January 30, 2015, 05:50:49 pm
-_-
Well, it's not like I'm going to throw everything at you (yet) ...
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Re-Restarted Because the (not us) Gods Hate this Round
Post by: Criptfeind on January 30, 2015, 05:52:42 pm
Do you wanta. Like. Try to make some type of boarder agreement or something so it doesn't happen again? (In retrospect I suppose we should have done so a few turns ago..)
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Re-Restarted Because the (not us) Gods Hate this Round
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on January 30, 2015, 08:32:55 pm
That's a lot of mercs, Ermor. Oh right must be all that armour you need to produce for your troops.

It's so easy to just dump all the gold into these naked woodmen of mine.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Re-Restarted Because the (not us) Gods Hate this Round
Post by: Hellheart on January 30, 2015, 08:45:15 pm
Oh hey, just dropping by to get...uh, things. And stuff.

Psst...Don't mention naked woodmen to this guy. He'll attack you for them.

Oh look, here's the things and the stuff! Welp, I'm out.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Re-Restarted Because the (not us) Gods Hate this Round
Post by: Elfeater on January 30, 2015, 09:46:17 pm
Bah! I will just run you through with my spear!
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Re-Restarted Because the (not us) Gods Hate this Round
Post by: Akhier the Dragon hearted on January 30, 2015, 09:47:20 pm
Like you have room to talk
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Re-Restarted Because the (not us) Gods Hate this Round
Post by: Elfeater on January 30, 2015, 10:14:07 pm
I have nothing but room!
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Re-Restarted Because the (not us) Gods Hate this Round
Post by: Hellheart on January 30, 2015, 11:23:26 pm
Quote from: Elfeater on January 30, 2015, 09:46:17 pm
Bah! I will just run you through with my spear!

Keep your "spear" AWAY from me, good sir!
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Re-Restarted Because the (not us) Gods Hate this Round
Post by: Akhier the Dragon hearted on January 31, 2015, 11:36:13 pm
Yes you have room to talk but is was mine to start with
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Re-Restarted Because the (not us) Gods Hate this Round
Post by: Criptfeind on February 01, 2015, 09:51:36 am
Man. All this tension and such. Who would have thought that the Roman expansion could ever upset Africans?

Edit: Also I can't help but notice my dudes are not in the hall of fame anymore. Sad.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Re-Restarted Because the (not us) Gods Hate this Round
Post by: Criptfeind on February 02, 2015, 02:27:01 pm
Hey Delta Foxtrot.

Sup?

Do you want to talk about a boarder agreement to avoid more dead gods?
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Re-Restarted Because the (not us) Gods Hate this Round
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on February 03, 2015, 12:26:14 am
Well Atlantis has expanded weirdly. Seems as if he had two separate starts that have yet to connect each other.

Quote from: Criptfeind on February 02, 2015, 02:27:01 pm
Do you want to talk about a boarder agreement to avoid more dead gods?

Forum PM incoming.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Re-Restarted Because the (not us) Gods Hate this Round
Post by: tompliss on February 03, 2015, 12:55:37 am
Well, the two oceans are connected thanks to the river.
But those damn shark tribes really are awful to deal with -_-
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Re-Restarted Because the (not us) Gods Hate this Round
Post by: Akhier the Dragon hearted on February 04, 2015, 02:23:18 am
Sorry but it looks like I won't be able to get my turn in till tommorowish so I will be holding up the game a little
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Re-Restarted Because the (not us) Gods Hate this Round
Post by: akirilus on February 05, 2015, 04:38:40 pm
Hey guys - I want to apologize upfront for this, but for some reason my work laptop refuses to start Dom 4 (crashes with an "unknown error" immediately), so I will not be able to make any moves like I thought I was going to be while on my business trip.  I will be back late Sunday night, and would like to request an extension for the pending turn until Monday night - I'll get it done on Monday for sure.  I apologize for such a long delay - it wasn't my intention to make everyone wait.  If you think this request is unfair, I understand.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Re-Restarted Because the (not us) Gods Hate this Round
Post by: Akhier the Dragon hearted on February 05, 2015, 07:23:08 pm
It happens, at least you where able to post and tell us you would need an extension. A lot more work to rollback a turn or some such.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Re-Restarted Because the (not us) Gods Hate this Round
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on February 06, 2015, 12:25:53 am
Life happens and machinery has hissyfits, 'tis ok.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Re-Restarted Because the (not us) Gods Hate this Round
Post by: akirilus on February 08, 2015, 05:40:40 pm
Hey guys - thank you so much for accommodating me on this.  I did notice that llamaserver expects a turn submitted by tonight - unfortunately that's impossible, as I won't be home before the countdown expires.  I can definitely get my turn in on Monday, but that would require another 12-24 hr extension from what it currently seems to be set to.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Re-Restarted Because the (not us) Gods Hate this Round
Post by: akirilus on February 09, 2015, 12:47:02 pm
I am back in town - thank you everyone for your patience.  Turn going out shortly.

To Ermor - hi, I noticed we just met.  I propose a non-aggression stance.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Re-Restarted Because the (not us) Gods Hate this Round
Post by: Hellheart on February 09, 2015, 09:25:35 pm
I don't know, you have big strong strapping men  ;)
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Re-Restarted Because the (not us) Gods Hate this Round
Post by: Criptfeind on February 12, 2015, 08:50:48 am
Well, that's interesting. Now I'm trapped.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Re-Restarted Because the (not us) Gods Hate this Round
Post by: akirilus on February 12, 2015, 01:29:18 pm
At this point, I think everyone is trapped.  Not a lot of indie provinces left to take.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Re-Restarted Because the (not us) Gods Hate this Round
Post by: Criptfeind on February 12, 2015, 01:44:19 pm
Well, that's not quite my situation. But, it brings up a question, do the wars start now normally then?
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Re-Restarted Because the (not us) Gods Hate this Round
Post by: Akhier the Dragon hearted on February 12, 2015, 01:49:59 pm
   The answer to that is a solid Maybe. It really comes down to how solid of a base you have right now compared to who your fighting. Also how far you have managed to get in research matters as well so its really all up in the air. To be honest the only reason people generally don't start wars early isn't because they can't but rather there is a somewhat unspoken rule that we let people actually play the early game at least. With some setups you can actually go and try for other nations as soon as you see them.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Re-Restarted Because the (not us) Gods Hate this Round
Post by: Hellheart on February 12, 2015, 09:12:09 pm
Well, actually, in Dominions 4 the Capitols are much more difficult to siege and storm. A smart player will force an early besieger to keep a large army on that capitol for nearly a dozen turns if not more, which will weaken them so much that they could easily fall to a 3rd party. That said, some nations - like EA Xib, EA Xib, or perhaps a nation with hundreds of cheap fliers that have a Patrol malus but not a siege malus - can still crack caps very early in Year 2. That said, a good enough bless can take enough provinces to reduce another nation to just its capitol, which gets the territorial advantage without tying up its forces long-term. That's where the gentleman's agreement comes in, although it usually only applies to wars before the end of Year 1 (Turn 12).

Outside of that, who you war with and when depends a lot on what you think will have the greatest success. That depends on scouting, troop placement, border layout, and your relations to your other neighbors.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Re-Restarted Because the (not us) Gods Hate this Round
Post by: akirilus on February 13, 2015, 11:33:59 am
The downside is that if your capital is besieged, and it's your only fort, you get no money at all, regardless of how much territory you control.  Same is true if all your active forts are currently under siege.  So if you don't have the forces to break the siege as is, you've already lost (unless you can summon something really big RIGHT NOW, but before the end of year two that's... unlikely) - the best you can do is take your attacker with you courtesy of a third party.  So to win a war, you don't necessarily have to crack the cap fortress - you can just attrition your opponent to death.

I am still new to Dom4, but my impression is that you will have to fight wars at some point.  So if you instigate it, you should have a plan as to what you want to accomplish and how you intend to do it.  If you get attacked - then try to not get caught with your pants down.  I generally prefer to communicate with my neighbors and don't start early wars unless I feel threatened.  That having been said, if you have a decisive advantage, there is nothing wrong with pushing it, just make sure it doesn't cause the rest of the world to team up on you :) .
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Re-Restarted Because the (not us) Gods Hate this Round
Post by: akirilus on February 14, 2015, 01:14:23 pm
A quick heads up - I will be traveling again for the next two days, so my ability to submit turns will be non-existent.  That having been said, I just sent in my turn 14, so that should be taken care of.  To all my neighbors - all diplo treaties are still good, peace for everyone! :) .  I will be back very late on Monday night, so I might need a one day extension for turn 15, depending on how the rest of the submissions stack up.  In practice, no delay might be necessary at all, but just wanted to give everyone a heads up I'll be MIA for the next 48 hours - because nothing says "long weekend" quite like a trip to learn chromosomal karyotyping!
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Re-Restarted Because the (not us) Gods Hate this Round
Post by: Hellheart on February 14, 2015, 03:27:53 pm
...Is he gone? Good. So, how are we going to screw that guy over?
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Re-Restarted Because the (not us) Gods Hate this Round
Post by: Akhier the Dragon hearted on February 16, 2015, 07:37:06 pm
Many sorrys to the giants, no harm no foul.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Re-Restarted Because the (not us) Gods Hate this Round
Post by: akirilus on February 17, 2015, 11:02:44 pm
Was a simple expansion party collision, no harm no foul.  Well, at least no harm to me - sorry bout that :( .  Apology wholeheartedly accepted :) .  Non-aggression treaty still in effect as far as I am concerned.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Re-Restarted Because the (not us) Gods Hate this Round
Post by: Akhier the Dragon hearted on February 17, 2015, 11:13:20 pm
I figured it was a fifty fifty shot you where not going to go for it and was willing to roll the dice. Better then trying for the only other indie I see as it has more than I could handle with that squad.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Re-Restarted Because the (not us) Gods Hate this Round
Post by: Criptfeind on February 27, 2015, 09:58:25 am
Is this game. Still, okay? It feels like it's a been a week or so, and the turn just keeps getting rolled back over and over.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Re-Restarted Because the (not us) Gods Hate this Round
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on February 27, 2015, 11:34:23 am
Seems we just got a new turn and no-one staled, so I'm guessing we're ok. Someone probably just needed a postponement and our admin didn't post in the thread.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Re-Restarted Because the (not us) Gods Hate this Round
Post by: Criptfeind on February 27, 2015, 11:50:34 am
Ah. Good! I can get back to getting my face stomped into the ground. I was missing that so.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Re-Restarted Because the (not us) Gods Hate this Round
Post by: Akhier the Dragon hearted on February 27, 2015, 01:53:25 pm
If I get the 12h notice and there are still people who haven't posted their turns I do a stealth 12h extension just in case someone gets caught in traffic or some other silly thing from real life.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Re-Restarted Because the (not us) Gods Hate this Round
Post by: akirilus on March 03, 2015, 02:03:31 pm
Excerpt from an F.I.A briefing (Fomorian Intelligence Agency)

Agent:  ...with regards to Ermorian troops, we observed them to be effective but sex-crzed.

King:  could you... elaborate... on that?  I am not sure I follow.

Agent:  yes sir - we observed a recent engagement with Machaka, where Ermorian troops performed admirably, and completely overwhelmed the local defense force.  With certain victory in sight, they abandoned the field as if dark angel was chasing them.

King:  Strange - what gives?  There was no dark angel, was there???

Agent:  No - it turns out just then a runner arrived informing them that the local brothel is doing a "buy one, get one free" special, so the entire army dropped their weapons and went to partake.  Our report states that the surviving members of the Machakan militia were so stunned, they went to the brothel as well.

King:  bad day for an invasion, it seems.  But a great day to be the owner of the local whorehouse.  We should take a note of this if they ever decide to invade us.  Is there anything else?

Agent:  ...ummm.... yes...?  well...  there was a little miscommunication with Machaka.  I mean tiny.  You know how we have prepared diplomatic letters for different occasions, since the language is always so formal and poor phrasing could be costly, and all such considerations?

King:  I know, I wrote most of them, where is this going?

Agent:  we meant to send them a letter congratulating them on their recent... defensive efforts...

King:  yes - their brothel did impressive work

Agent:  and, stupid mistake, I know, instead of sending letter form 2145 we sent letter form 1245.  Simple mistake really...

King:  and that was?...

Agent:  ... umm - a declaration of war, sir.

King:  so let me get this straight.  You declared war on Machaka BY ACCIDENT?

Agent:  Yes!  Then we confirmed the letter, thinking it was a routine inquiry.

King:  Then WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU STILL DOING HERE.  GO CLEAN UP YOUR MESS, NOW THAT YOU'VE STARTED IT!

King (mumbles to himself) :  I am surrounded by MORONS.  I know I am going to have to take care of this myself.

Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Re-Restarted Because the (not us) Gods Hate this Round
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on March 03, 2015, 06:21:51 pm
Could we change the thread title to something other than "Re-Restarted"? Every time this gets bumped I get scared we restarted yet again. Just a small thing for my peace of mind.

Also I did spy some interesting developments around Machaka. Seems there's excitement to be had all around.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Its actually working now
Post by: Akhier the Dragon hearted on March 03, 2015, 07:08:39 pm
This better?
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Its actually working now
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on March 03, 2015, 07:16:23 pm
I am pleased.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Its actually working now
Post by: Akhier the Dragon hearted on March 03, 2015, 09:36:57 pm
Those giants are quite stompy but my, what is this pain in my back?
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Its actually working now
Post by: Hellheart on March 04, 2015, 02:04:01 am
We have come to retake the lions that you have stolen from us under the cover of night, some undetermined time ago.

They were definitely stolen. We would never accidentally let our lions starve to death because we were busy conquering the world. That would be unethical and callous.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Its actually working now
Post by: Akhier the Dragon hearted on March 04, 2015, 04:21:05 am
Just going to point out my last lions where gone quite a while ago. I don't actually like them mid-game. It just happens you tend to end up with a situation on the first couple turns where you can buy more lions then other units.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Its actually working now
Post by: Akhier the Dragon hearted on March 09, 2015, 02:44:42 pm
Ulm has stalled a turn and not submitted this turn yet either so I have postponed the time a bit.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Its actually working now
Post by: Hellheart on March 09, 2015, 05:38:26 pm
I still have 4 hours!

But I stalled because I ended up with severe food poisoning that required an IV, and then passed out for some 20-odd hours. It was certainly an anomaly.

This particular delay stems more from the other game I staled in on Desura, where I'm running mass-reanimation, mass-Bloodhunting Lanka. I've got a system for handling those turns so I don't get overwhelmed (started with 2 stages, now it's closer to 4 and I'll soon have to add a 5th stage dedicated solely to tasking mages/hunters and balancing research amounts with my goals), and it takes a couple turns to get things running smoothly again after a stale.

...We're also just waiting on you now  ;)
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Its actually working now
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on March 14, 2015, 03:06:06 pm
That's an awfully appropriate army from Ermor.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Its actually working now
Post by: Criptfeind on March 14, 2015, 03:50:57 pm
Well, that's probably my last turn.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Its actually working now
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on March 14, 2015, 08:06:09 pm
You fought valiantly.

Maybe if you had a bit better expansion we wouldn't have been forced into an early war. Oh well, coulda woulda shoulda. What sort of build did you go with?
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Its actually working now
Post by: EnigmaticHat on March 17, 2015, 07:57:53 am
Can I have like a 12 hour extension?

Edit: Didn't need it.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Its actually working now
Post by: Criptfeind on March 17, 2015, 01:53:32 pm
Quote from: Delta Foxtrot on March 14, 2015, 08:06:09 pm
You fought valiantly.

Maybe if you had a bit better expansion we wouldn't have been forced into an early war. Oh well, coulda woulda shoulda. What sort of build did you go with?

I went with the, how it is called? Terrible mismanagement leading to nothing strategy? Yeah. I thought it would be good but for some reason it just didn't work out!

Anyway, thanks y'all for my first game of dominion. I sure learned. Well. Not a lot actually. But some things. Next time hopefully I'll do better. And I'm sorry I'm leaving a Pangaea that's like twice as big as it should be for the rest of you to deal with.  ;) Good luck.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Its actually working now
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on March 17, 2015, 01:59:25 pm
Quote from: Criptfeind on March 17, 2015, 01:53:32 pm

I went with the, how it is called? Terrible mismanagement leading to nothing strategy? Yeah. I thought it would be good but for some reason it just didn't work out!

Anyway, thanks y'all for my first game of dominion. I sure learned. Well. Not a lot actually. But some things. Next time hopefully I'll do better. And I'm sorry I'm leaving a Pangaea that's like twice as big as it should be for the rest of you to deal with.  ;) Good luck.

Fomoria and Ulm haven't been lazing around either.
and lord knows Ermor is trying :P
Did you two have a chat or is this pure opportunism on Ermor's part?
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Its actually working now
Post by: Criptfeind on March 17, 2015, 02:05:11 pm
Ermor attacked you?
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Its actually working now
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on March 17, 2015, 02:05:54 pm
With C'tissian auxiliaries, no less.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Its actually working now
Post by: Criptfeind on March 17, 2015, 02:07:21 pm
I did talk to him, but I had no idea that he was fighting you.
Sorry that I wasn't actually any good Ermor.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Its actually working now
Post by: EnigmaticHat on March 17, 2015, 02:19:42 pm
Quote from: Criptfeind on March 17, 2015, 01:53:32 pm
Quote from: Delta Foxtrot on March 14, 2015, 08:06:09 pm
You fought valiantly.

Maybe if you had a bit better expansion we wouldn't have been forced into an early war. Oh well, coulda woulda shoulda. What sort of build did you go with?

I went with the, how it is called? Terrible mismanagement leading to nothing strategy? Yeah. I thought it would be good but for some reason it just didn't work out!

Anyway, thanks y'all for my first game of dominion. I sure learned. Well. Not a lot actually. But some things. Next time hopefully I'll do better. And I'm sorry I'm leaving a Pangaea that's like twice as big as it should be for the rest of you to deal with.  ;) Good luck.
I considered attacking you early because I saw one of your provinces had 3 death scales and thought "oh shit they must be using some kind of advanced aggressive strategy I don't know about."

Looks like that wasn't the case :P
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Its actually working now
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on March 17, 2015, 02:21:37 pm
Various magic sites can affect the scales of a province as well. A handy list here:
http://www.desura.com/games/dominions-4-thrones-of-ascensions/forum/thread/grigio87s-site-searcing-handbook
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Its actually working now
Post by: Criptfeind on March 17, 2015, 02:22:43 pm
Indeed, I figured that was it, but I never got the chance to actually send a high enough level death mage out there to find out what the heck that was.

Edit: Looking at that list, I'm going to guess it's the well of disease. At least if it can spread further then it's own province, because all my commanders were constantly getting diseased and dying. I thought that was one of you guys fucking with me somehow or something. Or really bad luck.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Its actually working now
Post by: EnigmaticHat on March 17, 2015, 02:57:29 pm
Quote from: Criptfeind on March 17, 2015, 02:22:43 pm
Indeed, I figured that was it, but I never got the chance to actually send a high enough level death mage out there to find out what the heck that was.

Edit: Looking at that list, I'm going to guess it's the well of disease. At least if it can spread further then it's own province, because all my commanders were constantly getting diseased and dying. I thought that was one of you guys fucking with me somehow or something. Or really bad luck.
For future reference there's an item that spreads disease to its carrier and the province its in.  So a possible counter would be patrolling the affected province in hopes of killing whoever's messing with you.

I've considered putting it on a scout before but honestly the death gems+fort turn to hire scout seems like an inefficient use of resources.  That and the obvious weakness of having to infect yourself before you can even try infecting the enemy.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Its actually working now
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on March 17, 2015, 03:09:34 pm
Bane Venom Charm (the item in question) is a construction-4 item, so you can generally rule it out if you're noticing weird stuff during the expansion phase. After that it could be anything though.

As for using it, I've had it used against me and it didn't strike me as too devastating. It's certainly worth the gems if you manage to infect a large number of mages or something, but you're not guaranteed to get there before you're patrolled out. And even then you'll only come out ahead if you wait for the ten turns it takes for disease to kill something.

As part of a drawn out do-or-die endgame crawl? Sure, that's one additional tool that might be worth the few gems it takes at that stage. But as far as early/midgame warfare is concerned, I don't think it's going to be able to do enough damage in a reasonable time frame to be worth it. Also by lategame you can probably summon Harvesters of Sorrow, which are twice as expensive as BVC's, but you don't need to get a seperate scout, they're stealthier, have better combat stats and can fly. But even so I might prefer to use something a bit more straightforward.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Its actually working now
Post by: Criptfeind on March 17, 2015, 03:33:00 pm
So, I guess I still have the question about the expansion agreement.

And since I'm outa the game now I figure this is a good time to ask (Although I guess it might not be a good time to answer for you, if that's the case, then just ignore this or send a PM or something)

Did I sorta get screwed over by our expansion agreement? And what would you have done about it if you were me? I sorta considered just turning you down and attacking you as soon as you offered it. Considering how it all turned out, that seems like it might have been a better thing to do then what I did in the end (which was practically nothing.) But I dunno.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Its actually working now
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on March 17, 2015, 03:51:02 pm
I'll check my inbox and write a proper PM once I've gone over our correspondence.

What I can say is that I tried to make it appear as fair to you as possible while being as beneficial to me as possible. Which is basically how you want all your dominions deals to be.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Its actually working now
Post by: Elfeater on March 17, 2015, 05:28:35 pm
Oh, excuse the Ermorian expeditionary force, it means no harm.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Its actually working now
Post by: Hellheart on March 18, 2015, 12:04:49 am
Unless you have very attractive, muscular men.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Its actually working now
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on March 22, 2015, 10:48:24 am
Quote from: Elfeater on March 17, 2015, 05:28:35 pm
Oh, excuse the Ermorian expeditionary force, it means no harm.

Your centurion was most agreeable. And it seems your troops are all enjoying the sunshine.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Its actually working now
Post by: Elfeater on March 22, 2015, 11:23:25 am
I might be out this game, I was forgetful, staled, and am now completely fucked.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Its actually working now
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on March 22, 2015, 11:30:47 am
I'm of the "go down fighting" school of thought, but you know your situation best.

---

First up, Ulm, you're cool! I'm cool! We're cool! Let's be cool!

Second, everyone, Ulm has 3 of 6 thrones required to win claimed. I'm not saying let's kill him, just saying that uh... let's all keep that in mind shall we? All he needs is 4/6 and he can blitz the remaining two with his prophet & pretender to insta-win. I've seen a few throne wins where people just weren't expecting it. Let's try to do better here, shall we?
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Its actually working now
Post by: Hellheart on March 23, 2015, 12:28:16 pm
I can't possibly win without taking at least one throne at the top.

Guess who controls the top? And I mean ALL of the top? Pangaea!

Guess who knows that because he's been taking a LOT of land period, especially in that area? Formoria!

...What were we talking about again?
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Its actually working now
Post by: Criptfeind on March 23, 2015, 04:00:06 pm
Technically I still have my capital Hellheart. He doesn't own all the top! Vive la C'tis!
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Its actually working now
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on March 23, 2015, 06:02:15 pm
For full disclosure, I have 1/6 thrones claimed with two more within easy reach. So technically I'm sitting at 3/6 like Ulm. But like Ulm, I can at best claim two thrones per turn (assuming mobile pretender that's not dormant/imprisoned/dead).

So uh, yeah, if you guys see Pan, Fomoria or Ulm claim up to 4/6 thrones (or anyone else but that's the obvious top-3 in no particular order), that's your cue to gank the hell out of us. Though looking at Fomoria's humongous bless I'm guessing he's got an imprisoned immobile, but that's no excuse to let him creep up to 5/6 before acting.

That's just to remind everyone that this is in fact a thrones game, and not just a FFA killfest. Don't let the sight of blood blur your view.

*resuming bloodshed*
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Its actually working now
Post by: tompliss on March 24, 2015, 01:16:31 am
don't worry, we count on you three to assault each-other if you get too close to throne victory ;)
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Its actually working now
Post by: akirilus on March 24, 2015, 09:54:10 am
Ironically, I only control 2 thrones, since the sight of bloodshed, but mostly learning to manage my empire and responding to some Ermorian incursions, has gotten in the way of, you know, trying to win.  I am still learning the game, though, and have been needing the whole 2.5 days to take my turns - with work picking up, finding 45 minutes to browse and tinker with stuff (while I am clear-headed) has become more difficult.  I am by no means saying that to imply that I am considering dropping out - just apologizing for being so slow.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Its actually working now
Post by: tompliss on March 24, 2015, 10:59:15 am
Don't worry about being slow.
Being slow means you have more time to make decisions, so you are a better oppnent, which means we all get a more interesting game ;)
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Its actually working now
Post by: EnigmaticHat on April 04, 2015, 06:02:38 pm
Is it just me or did this game's time limit accidentally get set to a week?
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Its actually working now
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on April 04, 2015, 06:05:50 pm
Well we do seem to be on a 96h turn interval, but I don't recall seeing any post indicating we'd have gone beyond 48h at any point.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Its actually working now
Post by: Akhier the Dragon hearted on April 04, 2015, 06:10:46 pm
If more than two thirds of the people are still unsubmitted when the 12h warning comes I have a tendency to extend the time some. Though looking at it I need to get my turn in as I am the last one we are waiting on at the moment.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Its actually working now
Post by: Hellheart on April 04, 2015, 07:12:15 pm
I often get my turn in within 10-20 minutes before the due date if I'm busy IRL or if I'm just behind for whatever reason. But it normally takes something like my getting sick or outright forgetting a turn to actually Stale.

So if you extend because I haven't sent in my turn, I'll have sent it in by the original date regardless :P
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Its actually working now
Post by: Margrave on April 10, 2015, 02:40:12 pm
Hello! I'm just going to rudely butt into your game thread and advertise that game Dominions 4 - Round 11B needs a sub for Jotunheim!

We're well entrenched in the late game at this point (TURN 82!) with several contenders for the top slot. The game is 9/18, level 1 thrones only for victory. Jotunheim is in a good position, enjoying several in game years of peace between its neighbors with some strong resources at it's disposal for people interested in playing the late game and trying out strategies they might not try otherwise.

Jotunheim currently only has two thrones in its possession but the opportunity to expand if the more aggressive player is interested in seizing them. Shoot me a PM if you're interested in taking over and I will happily explain anything that needs explaining. Thanks for reading!
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Its actually working now
Post by: Hellheart on April 10, 2015, 04:54:46 pm
Why don't you just send in your turn when you extend the time limit? I'll take advantage of any extra time I'm given, but I imagine I have a lot more choices to make than you do.

TLDR: Waiting on Machaka again :P
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Its actually working now
Post by: Akhier the Dragon hearted on April 10, 2015, 05:18:20 pm
Access to Internet != Access to Game
Ever since I got a smartphone things have gotten both easier and harder in various ways.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Its actually working now
Post by: Hellheart on April 10, 2015, 05:38:14 pm
Ahhh. Great for Werewolf, terrible for Dominions.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Its actually working now
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on April 11, 2015, 04:23:39 pm
Seeing how Machaka got killed, do we perhaps need a new admin? In my experience, non-playing admins tend to have more lapses when it comes to keeping eyes on postponement requests and such. Anyone up for the job?

And while we're speaking of administering, are there people at play currently who feel we need a 96h schedule? Personally I'd prefer a 28h one, but even a 48h one would be an improvement as far as game pace is concerned.

Edit:

Any comments on EA Machaka, Akhier? Other than that it's not easy to live between Ulm and double bless Fomoria.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Its actually working now
Post by: Akhier the Dragon hearted on April 11, 2015, 05:40:39 pm
Yes I was about to ask for someone to join in on admin work. As for EA Machaka not really. My problem wasn't being stuck between people but rather the fact I got stopped twice from expanding and lost a lot of troops to the throne next to me.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Its actually working now
Post by: EnigmaticHat on April 11, 2015, 09:01:03 pm
Quote from: Delta Foxtrot on April 11, 2015, 04:23:39 pm
Seeing how Machaka got killed, do we perhaps need a new admin? In my experience, non-playing admins tend to have more lapses when it comes to keeping eyes on postponement requests and such. Anyone up for the job?

And while we're speaking of administering, are there people at play currently who feel we need a 96h schedule? Personally I'd prefer a 28h one, but even a 48h one would be an improvement as far as game pace is concerned.

Edit:

Any comments on EA Machaka, Akhier? Other than that it's not easy to live between Ulm and double bless Fomoria.
I'd prefer 48h.  The way my schedule works lately, there are a few days of the week where I might plausibly not have the time to play Dom 4 at all.

Also that way I can finally do both my games at the same time.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Its actually working now
Post by: Akhier the Dragon hearted on April 14, 2015, 03:42:45 pm
   So I just thought of something. Is there a way to contact whoever is in charge of llama server? I ended up delaying the game a bit because I like to get the 12h reminder and it would be nice if I could just go admin and put an email that will always receive the reminder.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Its actually working now
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on April 14, 2015, 03:53:31 pm
The end of every mail you get from llamaserver should have some contact info.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Its actually working now
Post by: tompliss on April 14, 2015, 03:55:06 pm
I don't think it's possible to add an Email address to the game's normally.
There should be llamabeast's address soemwhere on the site, if you need to contact him.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Its actually working now
Post by: Akhier the Dragon hearted on April 14, 2015, 03:59:20 pm
@tompliss
I meant through llama server as it already sends out warning emails. I just want to also be able to have an email that the reminder email will always get sent to so I can get a warning if someone would end up stalling or what have you.

@Delta Foxtrot
Ah I completely forgot about that. Good thing I save the new turn emails till the game is over.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Its actually working now
Post by: Akhier the Dragon hearted on April 17, 2015, 09:37:49 pm
If anyone is interested I have started uploading videos of this round from my point of view. The first video is up now, the next tomorrow and then every other day till the fifth and final video. The playlist is here. (https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLbGD7QQtiRBkxEd4KAXUjtWC9EY9FUMix)
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Players have fallen, No I'm Not Salty
Post by: EnigmaticHat on April 17, 2015, 10:00:40 pm
Nice!  I'm thinking whatever game I join after my current two, I'll do an AAR.

Not these though.  I'm not sure anyone would really care what I did here.  Looking back knowing what I currently know, I've played pretty badly.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Players have fallen, No I'm Not Salty
Post by: Akhier the Dragon hearted on April 17, 2015, 10:48:56 pm
At this point I just record everything I play.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Players have fallen, No I'm Not Salty
Post by: akirilus on April 18, 2015, 02:28:52 pm
Hey guys - just wanted to ask for a 24 hour extension for the current turn - I doubt I'll be able to submit it before 9 pm tonight, but I will definitely be able to submit it late tonight.  Thanks - sorry about that :( .
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Players have fallen, No I'm Not Salty
Post by: Akhier the Dragon hearted on April 18, 2015, 04:23:12 pm
Seeing as there are a couple stalls in the log I assume I missed extending the time. Do we want to rollback?
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Players have fallen, No I'm Not Salty
Post by: EnigmaticHat on April 18, 2015, 05:22:55 pm
Had the finished turn.  I don't even know.  Either I mistakenly submitted the .trn file instead of the .2h file, or I had a few corrections I wanted to do and then mistakenly believed I submitted the turn.

Either way I just waited like 4 days for the next turn only to stale :/  I'm OK with rolling back or not.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Players have fallen, No I'm Not Salty
Post by: tompliss on April 18, 2015, 05:36:25 pm
don't mind, don't care :/
getting worried bzecause of the difference of power in this game... at least those my scouts can inform me about .... :(
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Players have fallen, No I'm Not Salty
Post by: Hellheart on April 19, 2015, 02:50:01 am
I'm not against a rollback, since it won't affect anything that happened for me last turn.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Players have fallen, No I'm Not Salty
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on April 19, 2015, 03:45:03 am
People seem ambivalent enough that I'd just keep going.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Players have fallen, No I'm Not Salty
Post by: Akhier the Dragon hearted on April 19, 2015, 09:17:07 am
I agree, we shall keep going. Also once again does any of you folk want to join in on the admining fun?
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Players have fallen, No I'm Not Salty
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on April 19, 2015, 09:52:48 am
I'm going to start looking for a sub in about three weeks, and can keep playing for a few more after that if need be.

I don't mind being an admin, but I would consider it a bit silly for me to be administering when there's a significant chance I'll have to bail out before the end.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Players have fallen, No I'm Not Salty
Post by: Hellheart on April 19, 2015, 11:56:47 am
I can do it. Send me a PM.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Players have fallen, No I'm Not Salty
Post by: Akhier the Dragon hearted on April 19, 2015, 02:28:20 pm
Okay I sent the password to Hellheart.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Players have fallen, No I'm Not Salty
Post by: Hellheart on April 19, 2015, 03:59:18 pm
Is anyone against switching the schedule to 48 hours?
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Its actually working now
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on April 19, 2015, 06:23:28 pm
Quote from: Delta Foxtrot on April 11, 2015, 04:23:39 pm
And while we're speaking of administering, are there people at play currently who feel we need a 96h schedule? Personally I'd prefer a 28h one, but even a 48h one would be an improvement as far as game pace is concerned.

As per my post previously, I would indeed prefer a tighter schedule for the time being.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Players have fallen, No I'm Not Salty
Post by: Hellheart on April 20, 2015, 05:11:57 pm
With no objections, I'll change it to 30 hours and bump it back if necessary. But not every turn.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Players have fallen, No I'm Not Salty
Post by: Hellheart on April 23, 2015, 01:36:22 am
Also, I'll only delay upon request, not automatically.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Players have fallen, No I'm Not Salty
Post by: EnigmaticHat on April 24, 2015, 12:58:56 pm
Well, apparently llamaserver is a single time zone off from me.  AUGHHHHHHHH.

Also can we take the time limit to 48h?  Its the last 2 weeks of my senior semester of college, there are going to be days where I can't think about games.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Players have fallen, No I'm Not Salty
Post by: Hellheart on April 24, 2015, 04:58:37 pm
If you're on and you have the turn finished right now, I can do a rollback. And yeah, I'll kick it back to 48 hours. And you can always request a delay.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Players have fallen, No I'm Not Salty
Post by: Hellheart on April 24, 2015, 06:03:35 pm
I'll extend the time limit to 48h. I have to rescind the rollback offer at this point, because it's unfair to other people who also have limited time to focus on their turns.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Players have fallen, No I'm Not Salty
Post by: EnigmaticHat on April 24, 2015, 06:04:26 pm
Well, thanks for the offer anyway.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Players have fallen, No I'm Not Salty
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on April 24, 2015, 07:35:33 pm
Fomoria! I thought we were friends :(
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Players have fallen, No I'm Not Salty
Post by: tompliss on April 26, 2015, 06:59:51 am
Guys, given my position in this game and the fact that I won't be able to touch the game for a month or so, I'm switching to AI.
little heads up, as I've got nearly no army, expcet in one province, but whoever is near can see it :p
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Players have fallen, No I'm Not Salty
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on April 26, 2015, 12:04:31 pm
My offer was sincere, but I can't blame Niefelheim.

I will of course proceed to annihilate the whole lot of you as a result.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Players have fallen, No I'm Not Salty
Post by: EnigmaticHat on April 26, 2015, 03:34:54 pm
I'm going to be honest, I didn't really believe that the revelers were being sent to someone else.

They might have been, but who am I going to fight alongside: the guy who was sneaking in my territory, or the guy who wasn't?
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Players have fallen, No I'm Not Salty
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on April 26, 2015, 04:10:16 pm
It's not a bad habit to be distrusting in this game. But I think 5+ attacks against Fomoria this turn speak for my honesty. No matter.

It's just that revelers increase unrest (lower income), so of course I'd rather move them through somebody elses territory than my own. Definitely a dick move from me, and it's most assuredly a valid casus belli for you.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Players have fallen, No I'm Not Salty
Post by: akirilus on April 28, 2015, 09:07:47 am
Quote from: Delta Foxtrot on April 24, 2015, 07:35:33 pm
Fomoria! I thought we were friends :(

We WERE friends!  That province was taken from me by Ermor several times, I wasn simply reclaiming a territory that was mine since turn 5.  I thought that would be clear from the fact that i sent, umm... 5 units to re-take it?  Hardly a conquering army or an invading force.  Nor did I press the attack in any way - it was going to be a buffer province for the newly formed Niffleheim border.  On the other hand, infiltrating that many centaurs into my territory clearly took months of planning and is indicative of pretty much one thing - you were planning to backstab me all along.  No matter - you've carried out a massive attack now, so I know exactly where you stand. 
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Players have fallen, No I'm Not Salty
Post by: EnigmaticHat on May 02, 2015, 10:02:36 am
Pretty sure that entire fight was won by two air elementals that somehow got behind my lines :/

Still my fault for not using guard commander orders.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Players have fallen, No I'm Not Salty
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on May 02, 2015, 03:40:52 pm
Quote from: EnigmaticHat on May 02, 2015, 10:02:36 am
Still my fault for not using guard commander orders.

That's a common mistake. You can't really know how important that is until someone strikes your rear line somehow.

Now you know :D
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Players have fallen, No I'm Not Salty
Post by: Hellheart on May 02, 2015, 03:46:49 pm
There's also some additional benefits that are hard to quantify, like putting a larger portion of your force's total HP pool in the rear so you don't auto-rout too quickly.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Players have fallen, No I'm Not Salty
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on May 10, 2015, 07:56:57 pm
Delta jr. is due to arrive in about 2-3 weeks. I won't be playing dominions after that for a while.

Anyone interested in subbing into a midgame EA Pan? You're fighting two N9Ex giants (Niefel and Fomoria), but Ulm is doing some shenanigans on the other side of the map. Everyone else is dead or AI (vestigial Atlantis most notably). A very viable contender for victory.

Details can be requested via PM.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Players have fallen, No I'm Not Salty
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on May 13, 2015, 03:40:39 am
Welp, change of plans.

I just submitted my last turn. Pan is still in a strong position and Darkwind has all but promised to handle Pan for rest of the game, so ideally this game won't be on hold for too long.

But for the time being, I request the admin to postpone the game as necessary until Darkwind has taken control of Pan.


Hellheart, in case you're not familiar with llamaserver administering, here's what you need to do:
1) Wait until Darkwind sends you his email address
2) Admin options -> Change a player's e-mail address (http://www.llamaserver.net/gameinfo.cgi?game=Bay12GamesRound414)
3) Request turn resend -> Pangaea
4) Wait?
5) Play continues
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Players have fallen, No I'm Not Salty
Post by: Darkwind3 on May 16, 2015, 04:10:08 pm
Well, I've PMed Hellheart my email address so I ought to be set to go once the next turn rolls around. I look forward to meeting my soon-to-be subjects as Pantokrator! :D
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Players have fallen, No I'm Not Salty
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on May 19, 2015, 08:21:35 am
Seems Hellheart hasn't been online for a while and staled the latest turn to boot. As a result I sent a PM to Akhier so that he could at least transfer Pan from me to Darkwind.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Players have fallen, No I'm Not Salty
Post by: Akhier the Dragon hearted on May 19, 2015, 08:40:08 am
Okay seeing as Hellheart is missing at the moment guess I need to do a little admining again. First off, Darkwind3, please send me a pm with the email you want to use for this game and I will get you into the action right quick. Second who wants the admin password that is currently playing.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Players have fallen, No I'm Not Salty
Post by: Darkwind3 on May 20, 2015, 05:29:48 am
Alright, I've got the turn! I don't have time to open it right now but I'll be looking over and starting it for the next few days. The current deadline is fine, though a 24h extension wouldn't be uncalled for.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Players have fallen, No I'm Not Salty
Post by: Hellheart on May 22, 2015, 10:29:46 pm
Yeah, I basically let it stale because I was delaying endlessly and it wasn't really fair to anyone else. I'm hoping to get back on track this weekend, and may delay the turn until I get it in. I assume my work situation will stabilize as of tomorrow and I will be in a more conducive mental state to playing Dominions.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Players have fallen, No I'm Not Salty
Post by: Darkwind3 on May 25, 2015, 10:57:26 am
Both Ulm and Fomoria staled. What's up with that?

Condolences on Tjatse by the way, Niefelheim. I think I got a little lucky there. Not that I'm complaining! :D
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Players have fallen, No I'm Not Salty
Post by: Akhier the Dragon hearted on May 25, 2015, 04:12:14 pm
If no one posts for extension then stalls will happen. Once again does someone who is currently active in the game wants to help with admin duties.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Players have fallen, No I'm Not Salty
Post by: EnigmaticHat on May 25, 2015, 11:08:33 pm
Quote from: Darkwind3 on May 25, 2015, 10:57:26 am
Both Ulm and Fomoria staled. What's up with that?

Condolences on Tjatse by the way, Niefelheim. I think I got a little lucky there. Not that I'm complaining! :D
I can't think of a scenario where I win the game, so anything is fine at this point.

My early moves were... uninformed, to say the least.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Players have fallen, No I'm Not Salty
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on May 26, 2015, 03:46:45 am
I would be partial to advising some more aggression. IIRC you had 30+ niefel troops patrolling near my border turn after turn after turn. Those popsickles ain't cheap.

But it's a learning game, it takes a few matches to get a good Dominions groove going.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Players have fallen, No I'm Not Salty
Post by: Darkwind3 on June 02, 2015, 06:40:36 pm
Well, the turn was postponed for about a week and Ulm still staled. Fomoria is AI and Niefelheim will not win this war. Should we just call this in favor of Pangaea?
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Players have fallen, No I'm Not Salty
Post by: EnigmaticHat on June 02, 2015, 07:00:25 pm
I'm OK with this.  Let's give Ulm a bit to chime in case they intend to start playing.

I'll probably do a post-mortem in a bit, describe what I learned and how things went.  Even if I give up some info... whatever, I ain't winning this.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Players have fallen, No I'm Not Salty
Post by: Darkwind3 on June 03, 2015, 08:00:12 pm
Hellheart has had a day to check in, but I'd suggest waiting another day before moving forward with ending the game. If there's no response by this time tomorrow, I'll PM Akhier the Dragon hearted to request he end the game.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Players have fallen, No I'm Not Salty
Post by: Darkwind3 on June 04, 2015, 07:31:37 pm
PM sent. Though it's possible Hellheart still has his heart set on playing and just hasn't checked in in a while, I think it is probably safe to say the game is wrapping up. Good game, everyone! Probably. I wouldn't know. I did enjoy what time I got to spend and it was interesting seeing another player's take on EA Pan lategame.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Wrapped up
Post by: Akhier the Dragon hearted on June 04, 2015, 08:05:19 pm
And the game is closed
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Wrapped up
Post by: EnigmaticHat on June 05, 2015, 03:10:34 pm
So: In case anyone's still reading this, here's my thoughts:

First the big thing: I had no idea the kind of early game power I was sitting on with Niefelhiem.  Niefel giants are crazy.  This didn't really click until I sent them against Ermor and he tried to beat them with unsupported legionnaires.  Geez.  I should have been expanding with groups of nothing but 4 Niefel giants + a Gode.  I also didn't understand how to use magic, which makes sense because Neifelhiem is actually kinda weird with magic.  They have good path access on paper, probably one of the best factions for construction (Niefel Jarls can become light SCs at construction 4 and maybe a few alteration levels), and decent blood access.  They can also make ice fiends, which is a bit redundant but hey, its a good spammable unit and it doesn't directly cost gold so of course Niefelhiem is all over that.

That being said, Niefelhiem sucks at using their mages for combat support.  This is something I didn't understand for most of this game.  If you use Gynjas, you're paying for 3 paths you aren't using, and also for all the Gynja that randomed things that don't fit into your plan.  If you use Skratti or Niefel Jarls, your paths are great for self-buffing but mediocre at everything else, and also paying for a bunch of combat stats.  This pushes Niefelhiem into using thugs.  The other issue Niefelhiem has is that they just don't have enough dudes.  Jotuns aren't actually good fighters in the scheme of things, they have poor per-tile power and in the EA you don't get any national troops that can share a tile with them.  So you use the Niefel Giants, but then you're paying 175 gold EACH, and unfortunately for me my pretender design I went dormant for some reason and then didn't take the proper scales for gold.  So there just aren't enough dudes to be able to split armies effectively, further making you reliant on thugs with Gynja for research/construction/rituals.  Coming into this game, I didn't know how to use or make thugs.  I only learned about 6 turns before I tried to attack Pan, and at that point it was clear that no matter what i did, if Fomoria or Ulm decided to attack me in the back I was going to collapse.  Long story short, Ulm did, and the rest was history.

Lastly, I got unlucky with terrain this game (not that I was playing well enough to win either way).  I was pretty efficient about site searching for a new player, and I even got heroes so that I could search every single path at at least 1.  I found like two gem gen sites total in my territory in the first 18 turns.  Instead I got a bunch of crappy "mundane" sites like supply generators, extra recruitment, extra resources.  The only useful one out of the lot of them was a library that let me recruit sages, which was... actually pretty amazing.  Basically negated my nation's research disadvantage, not that I knew what to do with the extra research.

My neighbors were Ermor, Pan, C'tis, and Ulm.  However, my "natural" opponent was Ulm, and there happens to be a guide on the internet about how to fight Niefelhiem to a standstill as Ulm by taking advantage of two disadvantages: poor per-tile offense (which Ulm's dual wielders are good at) and fire vulnerability.  Given what I know of Hellheart he would have almost certainly crippled me if I'd tried to go after him at my skill level back then.  The terrain just wasn't good for fighting the other three.  I could have negated this disadvantage by, um, realizing that Niefelhiem is insane and just picking one person and rekking them.  I allowed myself to be discouraged by seeing other people's 100+ armies and thinking "shit, all I've got are these 20 giants".  I also should have fucked everything else and researched construction 4 so I could turn out SCs unreasonably early.  Instead of going after fricken conjuration because that was the only way I could figure out how to make my mages do anything useful.

What really, truly wasn't fair about the terrain in this game was the fact that it wasn't double wrap.  Pan had, what, 40 provinces?  Only 6 of which were bordered by other land nations.  That's a whole lot of resources being channeled into two very narrow chokepoints.  The last wars saw Pan and Ulm fighting against Fomoria and Neifelhiem, which doesn't make any sense politically.  Ulm was close to winning by thrones, Pan was close to snowballing to the point where they could fight everyone at once.  It should have been them duking it out and us two picking sides.  But because of the one way wrap, it was almost literally impossible for them NOT to be de facto allies against me and Fomoria.  They both got a big advantage by having a long safe border at the top and bottom of the map.  Again, not that I would have won either way.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Wrapped up
Post by: Shadowlord on June 05, 2015, 05:18:21 pm
I've never played a giant nation before, so I found that all very informative. Thanks for posting it.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Wrapped up
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on June 05, 2015, 07:35:05 pm
Yeah, I think Leaking Land is otherwise a neat map but the lack of multiwrapping hurts it. At least if one of the north/south nations manages to carve themselves a "corner" of sorts, as I did. Arguably a more experienced player base (with the game and the map) could temper that. C'tis (or some other nation in their starting location) could have held my attack off, you or Fomoria could have expanded north to secure top of the map, etc. Hindsight is 20/20 as they say. But yes, I do prefer full wrap for reasons that are obvious to the participants of this game.

Not that I did as well as I did purely due to that (it did help), Pan is strong from early to late game and I took advantage of that. C'tis in particular is weak to early wars, they didn't really have a chance (so I don't fault them for starting the war). It was a relatively quick and easy war, which netted me two, maybe three nations' worth of lands and an extra capital. And safe borders, of course. I also had decent luck with sites, gem sites were ok but what I really liked was the fact that I got A1S1 and S1N2 mages from two different sites that helped my diversity, Niefel felt the wrath of those A1S1's used by both me and my sub, or so I heard.

You're also correct about giants' lack of fighting power per square. Both me and my sub were of the mind that researching some buffs for revelers would be the counter for your giants. It never got to that point (at least while I was in charge), but I was confident I could beat those giants in the open field. As things were, I was busy picking off Fomoria and rich as I was, fighting two opponents at that stage did mean I had to exercise restraint in some areas.

Any thoughts about EA Pan? They're not my favourite. They're somewhat similar to MA Pan (possibly my #1 nation), but I find the lack of high E and pricier Pans to be a bit of a problem. I struggled to get stuff done just with N magic (I didn't really get into blood much, other than blood sacrificing some). I definitely didn't play the nation to its full potential. Food for thought, eh? ;)
Centaur Warriors were my MVP, as they tend to be. Just all around awesome units without any buffs necessary. They also don't kill my income (however temporarily) like some other units. They did suffer once I got round to fighting sacred giants, but against PD and other rabble they were superb raiders.
Revelers are great but I didn't really get around to buffing them before I bowed out of the game. Dryad Mothers were a decent mage, N2W1 with WE random (and my ability to easily churn out N boosters) meant that I could cast a bunch of neat N spells and some W ones as well as necessary.

I'm happy I participated, I wanted to experience first hand how EA and MA Pan differ and that's done. And I didn't do too badly in the game either. Shame about how it petered out when I left, but that happens occasionally. No use crying over that.

I think EnigmaticHat figured most of his lessons by himself, so I won't add any more wisdom here. Niefelheim is a strong nation, but giants do have their quirks and it seems you figured those out.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 14: Wrapped up
Post by: EnigmaticHat on June 05, 2015, 10:47:03 pm
There was also just... dumbness.  I didn't realize that I could go underground from one of my provinces, I staled like 5 times.  There was a point where I staled (I think maybe twice) and then I resumed playing Ermor had killed one of my expansion parties.

My opinions on the other players: Pan and Ulm both played well, Atlantis was mostly doomed from the beginning (who exactly would they stand a chance of invading?), Fomoria got sandwiched like I did but was actually pretty strong.  Speaking of which, me and Fomoria both fucked each other over in a passive-aggressive way.  When we met in the middle of Ermor we agreed to both attack Pan.  But they didn't attack Pan, instead they took all Ermor's land while I was going north to prepare.  Then when Pan did unveil their surprise attack I just kinda twirled a lock of my hair and hummed while revelers pillaged everything and Ulm invaded from the south.  Both of those are pretty minor tho, neither of us had a true obligation to help the other on either of those issues.

Ermor shot themselves in the foot in my opinion.  They antagonized me early by killing that expansion party and then didn't try finish me off.  I guess when I had my giants stationed my north fort both Ermor and Pan thought I was going to attack the other one, but... Ermor decided to start a war with Pan despite my army at their borders.  And then I finally crack the forward resistance and discover that there's no land to conquer because Fomoria invaded and claimed that Ermor ALSO attacked them.  IMO you always want to be at war with EXACTLY one person.  Ideally an offensive war of your choosing.  Especially when you're a human nation sandwiched between two giant nations and whatever the hell Pan counts as.  They should have been quaking in their sandals.