Post by: Squeegy on February 09, 2015, 09:40:18 am
The Westerners came with colonists, in search of the vast wealth the land was said to contain.
The Islanders came because their own lands were full, and they could only expand across the sea.
The Natives had always been here, but now found themselves forced to rapidly advance to survive.
The Southerners came to flee the Golden Horde, which ravaged their desert homeland and destroyed their settlements.
The Easterners came out of contempt for their former government, seeking to establish a new country that suited them better.
These five factions would soon find themselves at each others' throats, seeking to determine the fate of the fertile lands they now called home.
If you're unfamiliar with the Vanigo system, check out the tutorial below.
Turn 0 (http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=6k0FxfeK)
Vanigo Tutorial (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=108963.msg3260030#msg3260030)
Player interface (http://dl.dropbox.com/u/28942516/PlayerInterface.swf)
Admin Interface (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/28942516/AdminInterface.swf)
To sign up, choose a faction. You may move the faction's starting town 3 squares in any direction if you like. You may also rename it to whatever you want, and even change the color. The goal of the game is to destroy all the other factions, but after 40 turns the Golden Horde will begin to trickle in through the southern mountain pass. Gods help anyone who gets in their way.
Signups
Westerners - Pencil_Art
Islanders - hector13
Natives - scapheap
Southerners - SilverDragon
Easterners - Criptfiend
Post by: Criptfeind on February 09, 2015, 09:46:57 am
Post by: scapheap on February 09, 2015, 11:30:15 am
Post by: Squeegy on February 09, 2015, 07:55:18 pm
Post by: Pencil_Art on February 10, 2015, 12:14:26 am
[Thanks]
Post by: Squeegy on February 10, 2015, 04:53:47 am
Post by: Criptfeind on February 10, 2015, 05:40:11 am
Post by: Squeegy on February 10, 2015, 05:53:51 am
There will still most likely be a period of buildup before you actually get down to skirmishing, but that's common in 4X games.
Post by: scapheap on February 10, 2015, 06:32:27 am
Post by: Criptfeind on February 10, 2015, 06:50:02 am
It's actually only slightly larger than the one being used in The Dark Age, but it has more land because it's not an island. That's why I gave you all three units to start with, so you could set to claiming land immediately.
Don't you claim land by using population? (To be fair, I've not been able to find the actual rules for the game except for a two year thread, so I guess they could have changed.)
Post by: Squeegy on February 10, 2015, 06:57:37 am
Once we get 5 players, I'll go over the basics of playing the game, since the tutorial doesn't cover it all.
Post by: Criptfeind on February 10, 2015, 07:01:22 am
Being able to take them with military units seems like it will be a lot faster, thanks for clearing that up.
Post by: Kashyyk on February 10, 2015, 07:40:12 am
Also, if everyone is okay with it, I wouldn't mind giving comments/criticism/suggestions for each turn. This does however pose the chance that I may notice and bring up something in thread that a player was hoping to go unnoticed.
Post by: Squeegy on February 10, 2015, 08:00:06 am
Post by: Criptfeind on February 10, 2015, 06:34:17 pm
I'll move it two SW to 34, 23, and rename the town to "New Tempest"
Post by: hector13 on February 10, 2015, 07:18:08 pm
I'll take the Islanders instead then.
Post by: lemon10 on February 10, 2015, 08:15:26 pm
You claim land by moving a unit over it and conquering it. It increases the tile's population to 1, which may be what you're thinking of.No, you claim land by having a owned tile adjacent to it, and then claiming it. You don't need troops in or adjacent to it (although you can't claim any land that has enemy troops in it).
Once we get 5 players, I'll go over the basics of playing the game, since the tutorial doesn't cover it all.
You can also claim land by having a boat adjacent to it (which is the only way to claim other islands).
Having troops to start does make a pretty big tactical difference though, especially if they are stronger then spearmen.
Suggestions:
Add more iron sources.
Add rivers (which can be done by clicking on the "no river button"). You really want to add a significant amount for each portion of the map to speed up pop growth (which on a map this size is going to be massively important).
Give more mountains/hills to Islanders (for stone).
Give some close by sources of wood/stone to the Native Tribesmen.
Some bonus food on some of the coastal water tiles (otherwise there is almost literally no reason to claim any).
Give each starting player bonus pop to start (in addition to a few more tiles). With a map this large +10 might even be advisable. You may also want to give them some starting land in addition.
Do something with the top 5 tiles of the map. I would suggest removing them, but I'm not quite sure how you would go about that short of a program to edit the game code or redoing it all manually. You could also throw in some northern islands over there.
The easterners appear to have a pretty big advantage: They only have a single potential enemy, whereas everyone else starts with 2+ people that *can* attack them.
You also have to make a big decision.
A) You play with the default rules. This includes mages, endgame units, magical creatures, and some rare resources.
B) You play with the rules used in NQT's game, which I edited to take out all magical units and quite a few of the endgame stuff.
C) You play with a set of rules (also developed by me) that has some notable balance changes. Notably: Melee cavalry have speed 4, ranged cavalry are noticeably weaker (but get to keep speed 5), there are some speed 1 heavy infantry, pikemen/halberdiers get 50% better chargebreaker, and battering rams are removed and replaced by ballistas (25% siege, but are strong range 10 units).
D) You make your own set of rules, which while not very hard, seems a bit unlikley with how well you know the game.
Post by: Squeegy on February 10, 2015, 09:02:25 pm
lemon, I'd like to see your balanced rules. I was just going to use NQT's, but that sounds like it has some good changes.
Post by: lemon10 on February 10, 2015, 10:49:31 pm
E: Here (http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=Jtyn9jPc)is a link to your current map in progress, but with the ruleset swapped.
Post by: Squeegy on February 10, 2015, 11:43:58 pm
Would you like to play the Southerners, lemon? They're probably the most challenging faction since they start right next to where the Golden Horde will come from. It might be appropriate to have someone as familiar with the game as you face that challenge.
I understand if you're committed to too many games, however.
Post by: Criptfeind on February 11, 2015, 12:03:15 pm
Post by: hector13 on February 11, 2015, 12:07:38 pm
Post by: Squeegy on February 11, 2015, 12:08:51 pm
Post by: SilverDragon on February 11, 2015, 04:34:06 pm
Post by: lemon10 on February 11, 2015, 05:46:28 pm
Yep, I know how to do that.Na, I would prefer to take a replacement slot. It's too easy if I start with everyone else. (Cockiness intensifies). It would be one thing if they had played before, but since none of them have, I would have too much of an advantage.
Would you like to play the Southerners, lemon? They're probably the most challenging faction since they start right next to where the Golden Horde will come from. It might be appropriate to have someone as familiar with the game as you face that challenge.
I understand if you're committed to too many games, however.
Not to mention that SilverDragon just claimed it.
Post by: lemon10 on February 11, 2015, 06:05:17 pm
Spoiler: Vanigo Interface Tutorial (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Basic game tutorial (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Answers to some FAQ's from a previous game (click to show/hide)
Post by: Pencil_Art on February 11, 2015, 10:18:57 pm
And for some tutorial stuff. Note that their is a ton of information there, but quite a bit of it is to answer questions that you will probably end up having later on.Thanks. I think I'll move my starting city two squares down, onto the river tile.Spoiler: Vanigo Interface Tutorial (click to show/hide)Spoiler: Basic game tutorial (click to show/hide)Spoiler: Answers to some FAQ's from a previous game (click to show/hide)
Post by: Squeegy on February 12, 2015, 12:24:25 am
Post by: SilverDragon on February 12, 2015, 04:17:41 am
Post by: Pencil_Art on February 12, 2015, 04:34:08 am
Post by: scapheap on February 12, 2015, 05:03:34 am
I'm fine with location. I'll go for the name Manen(Norwegian for moon)
Post by: Squeegy on February 12, 2015, 07:32:56 am
I'm okay with my start position and name, but it'd be great if you could change that yellow to a less overbearing colour.What do you mean by overbearing?
e: I changed it to more of an apricot, is that okay?
Post by: Criptfeind on February 12, 2015, 08:44:10 am
Post by: Squeegy on February 12, 2015, 09:37:42 am
Turn 1 (http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=WAteDQxh)
Vanigo Tutorial (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=108963.msg3260030#msg3260030)
Player interface (http://dl.dropbox.com/u/28942516/PlayerInterface.swf)
Admin Interface (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/28942516/AdminInterface.swf)
Westerners - Pencil_Art
Islanders - hector13
Manen - scapheap
Southerners - SilverDragon
Easterners - Criptfiend
Post by: hector13 on February 12, 2015, 09:40:14 am
Post by: Squeegy on February 12, 2015, 09:41:21 am
Post by: hector13 on February 12, 2015, 09:42:21 am
Never mind... managed to not copy the bloody thing properly. Sorry!
Post by: scapheap on February 12, 2015, 09:56:05 am
http://pastebin.com/EZuLLha6 (http://first move)
Post by: Criptfeind on February 12, 2015, 10:02:23 am
Spoiler: Turn? (click to show/hide)
Post by: Squeegy on February 12, 2015, 10:04:22 am
Post by: hector13 on February 12, 2015, 10:22:52 am
Spoiler: Turn (click to show/hide)
Post by: Squeegy on February 12, 2015, 10:31:24 am
@Criptfiend: You may want to make something or raise a unit/the population in your city, so that it doesn't waste the turn.
hector, you look fine.
Post by: Criptfeind on February 12, 2015, 10:38:12 am
I'll swap to my order to this then?:
Spoiler: Turn (click to show/hide)
Post by: scapheap on February 12, 2015, 11:44:59 am
@scapheap: You don't have enough resources to build that in your city. It's going to fail next turn. You can see your Resources under the Resources tab. If you're in the negative for anything next turn it will cancel what it needs to to prevent that. You also may want to claim more land with your spare population, since it will mean more resources.I thought that the labor would mean that it a three turn thing. I'll change my moves.
Post by: scapheap on February 12, 2015, 11:50:02 am
Spoiler: Turn one edited (click to show/hide)
Post by: hector13 on February 12, 2015, 12:01:29 pm
@scapheap: You don't have enough resources to build that in your city. It's going to fail next turn. You can see your Resources under the Resources tab. If you're in the negative for anything next turn it will cancel what it needs to to prevent that. You also may want to claim more land with your spare population, since it will mean more resources.I thought that the labor would mean that it a three turn thing. I'll change my moves.
It's good it has been clarified though, since I thought the same thing.
Post by: Squeegy on February 12, 2015, 12:07:02 pm
Post by: hector13 on February 12, 2015, 12:07:41 pm
Nope, every action you make will be completed by the next turn.
That's kind of awesome :D
Post by: Squeegy on February 12, 2015, 12:11:47 pm
Post by: Pencil_Art on February 13, 2015, 12:17:47 am
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: SilverDragon on February 13, 2015, 06:39:11 am
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Squeegy on February 13, 2015, 07:07:23 am
Additionally, a size 5 city will produce 2 labor, allowing you to build two things each turn. Spending one free population on another city, and then raising it to pop 3, will also give you a second labor per turn. An Engineer's Guild will give you an extra labor per turn in that city also. Building an Aqueduct will let you raise your city's size to 6, turning it into a Metropolis that provides 4 labor (counting the Engineer's Guild). That's essentially the whole process of expanding your empire and allowing you to increase concurrent production. You will need to balance this process of steadily putting down cities with making units to defend yourself and attack others, and expanding to lay claim to as many resources as possible. To this end, I recommend in addition to getting your cities to size 5 as soon as possible, to also put down another settlement in an advantageous position (bear in mind terrain bonuses to defense; forest/swamp 25%, hills 50%, mountains 100%) this turn or next so you can bring it to size 3 and get 3 labor per turn.
Spoiler: Turn 1 (click to show/hide)
moved to Manen army 6Turn 2 (http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=iJbL1tDd)
Vanigo Tutorial (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=108963.msg3260030#msg3260030)
Player interface (http://dl.dropbox.com/u/28942516/PlayerInterface.swf)
Admin Interface (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/28942516/AdminInterface.swf)
Westerners - Pencil_Art
Islanders - hector13
Manen - scapheap
Southerners - SilverDragon
Easterners - Criptfiend
Post by: scapheap on February 13, 2015, 09:02:56 am
Spoiler: turn 2 (click to show/hide)
Post by: hector13 on February 13, 2015, 09:31:18 am
Spoiler: Turn 2 (click to show/hide)
Post by: Criptfeind on February 13, 2015, 11:04:11 am
Spoiler: turn2 (click to show/hide)
Post by: Pencil_Art on February 13, 2015, 07:08:01 pm
Spoiler: Les turn 2 (click to show/hide)
Post by: Squeegy on February 14, 2015, 05:47:07 pm
Post by: Squeegy on February 14, 2015, 07:09:38 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Turn 2 (click to show/hide)
Turn 3 (http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=Y13demjq)
Vanigo Tutorial (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=108963.msg3260030#msg3260030)
Player interface (http://dl.dropbox.com/u/28942516/PlayerInterface.swf)
Admin Interface (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/28942516/AdminInterface.swf)
Westerners - Pencil_Art
Islanders - hector13
Manen - scapheap
Southerners - SilverDragon
Easterners - Criptfiend
Post by: hector13 on February 14, 2015, 07:23:15 pm
Spoiler: Turn 3 (click to show/hide)
Post by: lemon10 on February 14, 2015, 07:36:01 pm
Post by: Pencil_Art on February 14, 2015, 07:37:02 pm
Spoiler: Turn 3 (click to show/hide)
Post by: Criptfeind on February 14, 2015, 08:06:03 pm
Spoiler: turn 3 (click to show/hide)
Post by: scapheap on February 15, 2015, 12:31:01 pm
Spoiler: turn 3 (click to show/hide)
Post by: Squeegy on February 15, 2015, 12:46:09 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Turn 3 (click to show/hide)
Turn 4 (http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=a6zTP938)
Vanigo Tutorial (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=108963.msg3260030#msg3260030)
Player interface (http://dl.dropbox.com/u/28942516/PlayerInterface.swf)
Admin Interface (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/28942516/AdminInterface.swf)
Westerners - Pencil_Art
Islanders - hector13
Manen - scapheap
Southerners - Kashyyk
Easterners - Criptfiend
Post by: Criptfeind on February 15, 2015, 12:55:04 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: hector13 on February 15, 2015, 12:58:30 pm
Spoiler: Turn 4 (click to show/hide)
Also, change my name from hector10 :P
Post by: scapheap on February 15, 2015, 01:15:22 pm
Spoiler: turn 4 (click to show/hide)
Post by: Kashyyk on February 15, 2015, 01:37:19 pm
Post by: Squeegy on February 15, 2015, 01:53:08 pm
Post by: Kashyyk on February 15, 2015, 01:56:27 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
There ya go.
Post by: Squeegy on February 15, 2015, 08:54:28 pm
Post by: SilverDragon on February 15, 2015, 09:01:47 pm
Post by: Pencil_Art on February 15, 2015, 11:47:02 pm
Spoiler: turn 4 (click to show/hide)
Post by: Rolepgeek on February 16, 2015, 01:07:09 am
Post by: Kashyyk on February 16, 2015, 06:23:47 am
Kashyyk, I'm going to give SilverDragon another chance to keep up with the turns. I'll use your action this turn, but I won't replace him with you just yet.
Alrighty then :)
Post by: Squeegy on February 16, 2015, 06:28:08 am
Spoiler: Turn 4 (click to show/hide)
Turn 5 (http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=JXp4wA0r)
Vanigo Tutorial (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=108963.msg3260030#msg3260030)
Player interface (http://dl.dropbox.com/u/28942516/PlayerInterface.swf)
Admin Interface (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/28942516/AdminInterface.swf)
Westerners - Pencil_Art
Islanders - hector13
Manen - scapheap
Southerners - SilverDragon
Easterners - Criptfiend
Post by: scapheap on February 16, 2015, 06:40:40 am
Spoiler: turn 5 (click to show/hide)
Post by: Criptfeind on February 16, 2015, 06:55:27 am
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Squeegy on February 16, 2015, 07:19:09 am
e: Haha, looking at the original Vanigo rules, I'm actually adding the Dragoons and Musketmen back in. Ah well, they're entirely new units to fit the balance changes.
Post by: hector13 on February 16, 2015, 09:20:05 am
Spoiler: Turn 5 (click to show/hide)
Post by: SilverDragon on February 16, 2015, 07:17:54 pm
Spoiler: Turn 5 (click to show/hide)
Post by: Squeegy on February 16, 2015, 07:36:13 pm
Post by: SilverDragon on February 16, 2015, 08:55:11 pm
Post by: Pencil_Art on February 16, 2015, 10:04:05 pm
Spoiler: Turn 5 (click to show/hide)
Sorry again.
Post by: Squeegy on February 16, 2015, 10:20:50 pm
Reminder to you all that I can change the name of your civilization if you want, now that you're all getting into naming your cities.
Spoiler: Turn 5 (click to show/hide)
Turn 6 (http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=EzCwLeMd)
Player interface (http://dl.dropbox.com/u/28942516/PlayerInterface.swf)
Admin Interface (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/28942516/AdminInterface.swf)
Westerners - Pencil_Art
Islanders - hector13
Manen - scapheap
Southerners - SilverDragon
Easterners - Criptfiend
Post by: Pencil_Art on February 16, 2015, 10:28:25 pm
Spoiler: Turn 6 (click to show/hide)
Post by: Criptfeind on February 16, 2015, 10:34:28 pm
Spoiler: Turn Six (click to show/hide)
Post by: lemon10 on February 16, 2015, 11:40:30 pm
I've added Dragoons, Musketeers, and Cannons as end-game units, as well as two new buildings: the Alchemist's Guild and the Firing Range. They both require pop 6 to build, so the end-game units can only be built in a Metropolis. They should make things interesting!Heh, that's pretty amusing.
e: Haha, looking at the original Vanigo rules, I'm actually adding the Dragoons and Musketmen back in. Ah well, they're entirely new units to fit the balance changes.
Post by: scapheap on February 17, 2015, 03:46:39 am
Spoiler: turn 6 (click to show/hide)
Post by: hector13 on February 17, 2015, 09:14:06 am
Spoiler: Turn 6 (click to show/hide)
Post by: Pencil_Art on February 17, 2015, 01:36:39 pm
Post by: Squeegy on February 17, 2015, 02:19:40 pm
Post by: SilverDragon on February 17, 2015, 08:34:02 pm
Spoiler: Turn 6 (somewhat on time) (click to show/hide)
Post by: Squeegy on February 17, 2015, 09:40:37 pm
Spoiler: Turn 6 (click to show/hide)
Turn 7 (http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=8sCNTkDb)
Player interface (http://dl.dropbox.com/u/28942516/PlayerInterface.swf)
Admin Interface (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/28942516/AdminInterface.swf)
Westerners - Pencil_Art
Islanders - hector13
Manen - scapheap
Southerners - SilverDragon
Easterners - Criptfiend
Post by: hector13 on February 17, 2015, 09:44:31 pm
Spoiler: Turn 7 (click to show/hide)
Post by: Criptfeind on February 17, 2015, 10:15:33 pm
Spoiler: turn 7 (click to show/hide)
Post by: lemon10 on February 17, 2015, 11:02:57 pm
The way to use it is: Save your turn in the player interface, load the game turn in the admin interface, and click the "load orders" button, and put your order in there. Then click the "run turn" button, and it will run the turn. This will give you the details of any battles that occur, which is super helpful, especially since doing it multiple times allows you to (very roughly) see the odds of victory in any given battle, and how much victory will cost the winner.
If you click "save game" it gives you the game turn, which you can then load into the player interface to run the next turn.
Post by: scapheap on February 18, 2015, 05:35:32 am
Spoiler: turn 7 (click to show/hide)
Post by: Kashyyk on February 18, 2015, 08:58:18 am
Spoiler: Pencil_Art Stand In (click to show/hide)
Post by: Squeegy on February 18, 2015, 08:17:32 pm
Post by: SilverDragon on February 18, 2015, 08:56:01 pm
Post by: Squeegy on February 18, 2015, 09:12:05 pm
Post by: SilverDragon on February 19, 2015, 01:13:31 am
Spoiler: Turn 7 (click to show/hide)
Post by: Squeegy on February 19, 2015, 01:19:11 am
Spoiler: Turn 7 (click to show/hide)
Turn 8 (http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=ABnnQf6e)
Player interface (http://dl.dropbox.com/u/28942516/PlayerInterface.swf)
Admin Interface (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/28942516/AdminInterface.swf)
Westerners - Pencil_Art
Islanders - hector13
Manen - scapheap
Southerners - SilverDragon
Easterners - Criptfiend
Post by: Criptfeind on February 19, 2015, 01:32:26 am
Spoiler: turn (click to show/hide)
Post by: scapheap on February 19, 2015, 07:02:42 am
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: SilverDragon on February 19, 2015, 07:29:04 am
Post by: Kashyyk on February 19, 2015, 07:36:35 am
Spoiler: Pencil_Art Stand-in (click to show/hide)
Post by: hector13 on February 19, 2015, 09:56:26 am
Spoiler: Turn 8 (click to show/hide)
Post by: Squeegy on February 19, 2015, 01:33:09 pm
Um, so they issued a tornado warning where I live and while I'm still active, if I dissapear and don't log on again you'll know what happened. Hopefully it doesn't come to that though. Unfortunately I am unable to make my turn at the moment, sorry.Alright, thanks for letting us know. If you don't show up for a few days I'll have Kashyyk take over. Be safe.
Post by: lemon10 on February 19, 2015, 03:57:22 pm
Never fight two opponents at once if you can possibly avoid it. Just don't do it. It might seem like a good idea at the time, but it is pretty certain to turn out very badly.
Full scale war is extremely costly early in the game, especially for the attacker until. Don't do it unless you will gain a very large strategic advantage from it, finish it very quickly, or you already have a very well developed empire.
Always have your attacking troops in the same army wherever possible. Otherwise they fight separately (even if all moving from the same place to the same place at the same speed), which makes them exponentially weaker.
Post by: SilverDragon on February 19, 2015, 05:38:47 pm
Spoiler: Turn 8 (click to show/hide)
Post by: lemon10 on February 19, 2015, 06:03:08 pm
The first is that they majorly speed up troop movement (by reducing the movecost down to 1 for all terrain types), which makes them invaluable for moving your armies when you are attacking, allowing you to move your troops between cities faster when defending, and gathering you newly produced troops into armies. They can also be used by your enemy however, and since they can never be destroyed once built, roads can make it much easier to attack you if placed improperly.
The second is that you need either a road connection or ports on the same ocean to trade with another player. On this map you almost certainly are going to be trading on the ocean (since it is far easier and quicker then setting up 20 long roads), so the fact that it allows trade probably won't matter. Do note however that if you and a potential trading partner do make a road for trading, enemy troops can come down it just as easily as trade goods. This of course, assumes that squeegy is working with under standard trading rules, as he could just as easily ban trading altogether (or simply ban road/ocean trading).
And since neither of those is really of any import to any players at the moment (and you don't want to be building roads willy nilly since they may help attacking opponents), you really don't want to be spending any labor on roads just yet.
Post by: Squeegy on February 19, 2015, 07:55:05 pm
Spoiler: Turn 8 (click to show/hide)
Turn 9 (http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=L97KWthz)
Player interface (http://dl.dropbox.com/u/28942516/PlayerInterface.swf)
Admin Interface (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/28942516/AdminInterface.swf)
Westerners - Pencil_Art
Islanders - hector13
Manen - scapheap
Southerners - SilverDragon
Easterners - Criptfiend
Post by: Criptfeind on February 19, 2015, 08:09:47 pm
Spoiler: turn (click to show/hide)
Post by: Kashyyk on February 19, 2015, 08:19:21 pm
Spoiler: Pencil_Art Stand-in (click to show/hide)
Post by: Squeegy on February 19, 2015, 09:13:06 pm
I'll throw out some tips for everyone from past games:While I don't advise getting into a full-scale war either, unless you spot a serious weakness on the part of an enemy, it's tactically sound to send your troops out to raze enemy lands by conquering claimed tiles so they can't get as many resources. Just be aware that others might send some troops to do it to you.
Never fight two opponents at once if you can possibly avoid it. Just don't do it. It might seem like a good idea at the time, but it is pretty certain to turn out very badly.
Full scale war is extremely costly early in the game, especially for the attacker until. Don't do it unless you will gain a very large strategic advantage from it, finish it very quickly, or you already have a very well developed empire.
Always have your attacking troops in the same army wherever possible. Otherwise they fight separately (even if all moving from the same place to the same place at the same speed), which makes them exponentially weaker.
Post by: hector13 on February 19, 2015, 09:24:36 pm
Spoiler: Turn 9 (click to show/hide)
Post by: lemon10 on February 19, 2015, 11:01:51 pm
Its tactically sound, but strategically unsound. Harassing an opponent means that you are in a conflict with them. Conflict costs resources. If you get something out of it its one thing (more land by stopping their expansion, a iron tile (or in the rules that have magic in them, elemental resources/mithril/pegasai), a city), or their is only single other player in the game.I'll throw out some tips for everyone from past games:While I don't advise getting into a full-scale war either, unless you spot a serious weakness on the part of an enemy, it's tactically sound to send your troops out to raze enemy lands by conquering claimed tiles so they can't get as many resources. Just be aware that others might send some troops to do it to you.
Never fight two opponents at once if you can possibly avoid it. Just don't do it. It might seem like a good idea at the time, but it is pretty certain to turn out very badly.
Full scale war is extremely costly early in the game, especially for the attacker until. Don't do it unless you will gain a very large strategic advantage from it, finish it very quickly, or you already have a very well developed empire.
Always have your attacking troops in the same army wherever possible. Otherwise they fight separately (even if all moving from the same place to the same place at the same speed), which makes them exponentially weaker.
But if there are more then two players (and there are) it isn't a zero sum game. If you hurt one of your neighbors, and it hurts you in turn (even if the hurt is only 4 labor to build the troop and buildings for you, and a single tile of land for them), it means that everyone but you two get ahead. Now, a single raider won't cost you much, but if it escalates, and they send troops to stop your raider, and you have to build troops to stop them raiding you, it will end up costing you resources, and quite possibly put both of you turns behind the other players..
Since distances are so great in this map, I don't think their is much incentive for raiding to get resources (as you need to claim the land all the way to the point where you are raiding in order to get it for yourself).
I should make it clear though, that if you think you can get a enemy city on the cheap, then its probably worth a try (although a full out war is still very costly to your development). Just be aware that if your opponent responds to any real degree, the 5(?) turns it will take your troops to get over to them means that your attack will fail and cost you a non-trivial amount of resources (which in turn will help everyone else).
Post by: Squeegy on February 19, 2015, 11:04:35 pm
They start with units, they don't have to build them. The units they started with are otherwise just sitting around costing money.Its tactically sound, but strategically unsound. Harassing an opponent means that you are in a conflict with them. Conflict costs resources. If you get something out of it its one thing (more land by stopping their expansion, a iron tile (or in the rules that have magic in them, elemental resources/mithril/pegasai), a city), or their is only single other player in the game.I'll throw out some tips for everyone from past games:While I don't advise getting into a full-scale war either, unless you spot a serious weakness on the part of an enemy, it's tactically sound to send your troops out to raze enemy lands by conquering claimed tiles so they can't get as many resources. Just be aware that others might send some troops to do it to you.
Never fight two opponents at once if you can possibly avoid it. Just don't do it. It might seem like a good idea at the time, but it is pretty certain to turn out very badly.
Full scale war is extremely costly early in the game, especially for the attacker until. Don't do it unless you will gain a very large strategic advantage from it, finish it very quickly, or you already have a very well developed empire.
Always have your attacking troops in the same army wherever possible. Otherwise they fight separately (even if all moving from the same place to the same place at the same speed), which makes them exponentially weaker.
But if there are more then two players (and there are) it isn't a zero sum game. If you hurt one of your neighbors, and it hurts you in turn (even if the hurt is only 4 labor to build the troop and buildings for you, and a single tile of land for them), it means that everyone but you two get ahead. Now, a single raider won't cost you much, but if it escalates, and they send troops to stop your raider, and you have to build troops to stop them raiding you, it will end up costing you resources, and quite possibly put both of you turns behind the other players..
Since distances are so great in this map, I don't think their is much incentive for raiding to get resources (as you need to claim the land all the way to the point where you are raiding in order to get it for yourself).
I should make it clear though, that if you think you can get a enemy city on the cheap, then its probably worth a try (although a full out war is still very costly to your development). Just be aware that if your opponent responds to any real degree, the 5(?) turns it will take your troops to get over to them means that your attack will fail and cost you a non-trivial amount of resources (which in turn will help everyone else).
Post by: Pencil_Art on February 19, 2015, 11:50:48 pm
Post by: lemon10 on February 19, 2015, 11:54:00 pm
Its entirely up to them if they think going off and raiding their opponents is a good idea, because as you say, they can do some damage, and since they start with troops, it won't cost anything. I wouldn't do it personally, but that's mainly because I play very conservatively, and try to outgrow my opponents.
Post by: Squeegy on February 19, 2015, 11:58:03 pm
Post by: SilverDragon on February 20, 2015, 05:37:22 am
Post by: Kashyyk on February 20, 2015, 07:04:34 am
((I'm back!!))
Yay! you are welcome to keep my stand-in, or do your own turn.
Post by: lemon10 on February 20, 2015, 02:44:31 pm
Yes, but that only worked for you because you started on a wide-open space that could only be reached by ship and nobody bothered to come curb your growing power. These guys don't have that luxury.I really have to disagree. I've used that strategy in every game of this that I have played, and it has served me well every time.
It might not always be an option, as if you are attacked you are always forced to fight back, but focusing on growing your power without attacking other players is the optimal option.
It also helps that I am the best at long term growth. If I was in Wales position in The Dark Age right now I would have 70+ fully upgraded knights (or mounted crossbowmen) at the very minimum, with probably having over 100.
Post by: Squeegy on February 20, 2015, 02:48:48 pm
Also, welcome back, Pencil_Art.
Post by: lemon10 on February 20, 2015, 03:26:41 pm
I can't really comment on that because I've only played the last few turns, but I do know that sitting idly and letting an enemy in a better position for growth consolidate their power is not strategically wise. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.But that's just the thing. Its not a zero sum game. If you harass another player, and cost him 5 turns of growth for 2 turns of your own, that isn't a win (despite the fact that it is a huge advantage for you in a 1v1 against him), it simply puts all the other players 2 turns ahead of you.
Also, welcome back, Pencil_Art.
So while you can stop the growth of a single player by being aggressive, all that does is simply help every single other player.
Now, if you gain strength as a result of your fighting by taking over his cities that is one thing, but that is very improbable early game unless your opponent basically doesn't fight back, due to the amount of time that it takes your troops to reach their cities on any decently sized map.
Post by: Squeegy on February 20, 2015, 03:31:10 pm
Post by: Pencil_Art on February 20, 2015, 03:55:23 pm
Post by: Criptfeind on February 20, 2015, 04:12:50 pm
Post by: Squeegy on February 20, 2015, 05:14:20 pm
Post by: Rolepgeek on February 20, 2015, 06:18:13 pm
Post by: Squeegy on February 20, 2015, 07:38:15 pm
Post by: scapheap on February 21, 2015, 12:57:01 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: SilverDragon on February 21, 2015, 08:06:32 pm
Spoiler: Turn 9 (click to show/hide)
Post by: Squeegy on February 21, 2015, 08:13:47 pm
Spoiler: Turn 9 (click to show/hide)
Turn 10 (http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=kv7VQRtA)
Player interface (http://dl.dropbox.com/u/28942516/PlayerInterface.swf)
Admin Interface (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/28942516/AdminInterface.swf)
Westerners - Pencil_Art
Islanders - hector13
Manen - scapheap
Southerners - SilverDragon
Easterners - Criptfiend
Post by: Criptfeind on February 21, 2015, 08:59:04 pm
Spoiler: turn (click to show/hide)
Post by: hector13 on February 21, 2015, 09:02:45 pm
Spoiler: Turn 10 (click to show/hide)
Post by: Pencil_Art on February 22, 2015, 12:39:00 am
Spoiler: Turn 10 (click to show/hide)
Post by: Squeegy on February 22, 2015, 01:41:16 pm
Post by: SilverDragon on February 22, 2015, 09:19:46 pm
Spoiler: Turn 10 (click to show/hide)
Post by: Pencil_Art on February 22, 2015, 11:23:17 pm
Never thought I'd see the day when Pencil_Art posted faster than scapheap.
:D
Post by: scapheap on February 23, 2015, 04:26:59 am
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Squeegy on February 23, 2015, 01:11:27 pm
Spoiler: Turn 10 (click to show/hide)
Turn 11 (http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=SL3ZuiP1)
Player interface (http://dl.dropbox.com/u/28942516/PlayerInterface.swf)
Admin Interface (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/28942516/AdminInterface.swf)
Westerners - Pencil_Art
Islanders - hector13
Manen - scapheap
Southerners - SilverDragon
Easterners - Criptfiend
Post by: hector13 on February 23, 2015, 01:20:04 pm
Spoiler: Turn 11 (click to show/hide)
Edit for turn number error.
Post by: scapheap on February 23, 2015, 01:21:42 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: lemon10 on February 23, 2015, 06:29:55 pm
Spoiler: Extensive strategy discussion (click to show/hide)
Post by: SilverDragon on February 23, 2015, 06:41:44 pm
Spoiler: Turn 11 (click to show/hide)
Post by: lemon10 on February 23, 2015, 06:57:51 pm
This game is not exactly economically complex. Especially on such a large map as this. Whether one can outgrow their opponents or not was basically determined on turn one and for the most part it's not really a function of skill, but starting position. I'm not sure if you can call "having the best starting spot" a strategy that it's possible to be good at...Even in symmetrical maps their is substantial differences in players growth on any reasonable time scale. While if everyone was playing perfectly optimally growth would be determined at the start of the game, everyone doesn't actually grow perfectly optimally, and there are numerous things you need to balance (pop growth vs number of cities and city size, building troop buildings vs investing in buildings that help your long term production, food production vs wood/stone production, which inspiration buildings you choose to build).
Some players simply grow much better then other players and make clearly sub-optimal production choices. A good example is this game (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=121594.msg3945095#msg3945095), where by the end one player had 3 times the labor of his opponent who had grown the least despite the map being perfectly symmetrical, despite not a single city changing hands.
I believe (but I could be completely wrong) that population you get from food consumes 1 food per turn, so eventually everyone's population will level out to the maximum that their lands are capable of supporting. However, the tiles that you choose to claim with your population (as well as what improvements you build) make a big difference in the early game, so it's possible for someone to get a big early lead by choosing to claim tiles for food over any tiles with other resources, or building a farm every turn. However, everyone else will eventually catch up to them, and while they'll have a lead in population and labor, they'll suffer on resources, which don't taper off over time.Eventually everyone pop will even out but this takes an extremely long time, as that 200th pop may take 50 turns of gaining 2 food per turn. But having more food growth early does have a cost in labor strength and city size (as if you put 1/2 your pop into cities you produce much less food then the person that puts 1/4 into cities). Finding the perfect balance is very important, as if you put all your pop into food production, then you will have by far the most production, but will have no cities with which to do everything. If you put everyone into cities, then you will have almost no population, and you will end up with far fewer cities then everyone else, which will result in a stronger very early game, but you will fall farther and farther behind as the game progresses. Logically the perfect amount is somewhere between these two (and will change depending on the stage of the game), that allows you to build up your cities while still growing steadily.
In general: More pop in food means that you will end up with more pop, which allows you to claim more tiles, and eventually have more cities than your opponents (in addition to having more land). This costs you in the short-medium term, and depending on your ratio may cost you more than it gains you.
More pop in cities and resource production means that you end up with a more developed empire in, but you will have less tiles and fewer cities in the end. This makes you more powerful in the short-medium term, but again, depending on your ratio may cost you more then it gains you.
Post by: Criptfeind on February 23, 2015, 10:52:47 pm
Spoiler: turn (click to show/hide)
Post by: Pencil_Art on February 24, 2015, 12:26:02 am
Post by: Squeegy on February 24, 2015, 12:47:10 am
Spoiler: Turn (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Turn 11 (click to show/hide)
Turn 12 (http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=zsXedrbX)
Player interface (http://dl.dropbox.com/u/28942516/PlayerInterface.swf)
Admin Interface (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/28942516/AdminInterface.swf)
Westerners - Pencil_Art
Islanders - hector13
Manen - scapheap
Southerners - SilverDragon
Easterners - Criptfiend
Post by: hector13 on February 24, 2015, 01:53:19 am
Spoiler: Turn 12 (click to show/hide)
Post by: scapheap on February 24, 2015, 04:54:42 am
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Kashyyk on February 24, 2015, 07:38:38 am
Post by: Criptfeind on February 24, 2015, 08:30:05 am
Spoiler: turn (click to show/hide)
Post by: Squeegy on February 24, 2015, 04:27:43 pm
Post by: Squeegy on February 24, 2015, 05:35:02 pm
Post by: lemon10 on February 24, 2015, 05:39:48 pm
It is an interesting idea though, as it would add a substantial naval portion to the game (more so than their already is), as coastal cities and coastal waters (aka, all waters that are close enough to land that you can build fishing villages on them) would become much more common and important.
Post by: Squeegy on February 24, 2015, 05:58:15 pm
Post by: Kashyyk on February 24, 2015, 10:29:20 pm
Spoiler: Pencil_Art (click to show/hide)
Post by: Squeegy on February 25, 2015, 11:40:42 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Turn 12 (click to show/hide)
Turn 13 (http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=13Vd6KpS)
Player interface (http://dl.dropbox.com/u/28942516/PlayerInterface.swf)
Admin Interface (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/28942516/AdminInterface.swf)
Westerners - Pencil_Art
Islanders - hector13
Manen - scapheap
Southerners - SilverDragon
Easterners - Criptfiend
Post by: Pencil_Art on February 25, 2015, 11:52:52 pm
Spoiler: Turn 14 (click to show/hide)
Post by: SilverDragon on February 25, 2015, 11:59:50 pm
Spoiler: Turn 13 (click to show/hide)
Edit 2: realised it was turn 13 not 14.
Post by: Squeegy on February 26, 2015, 12:29:16 am
- Only one army can attack at a time. Any number of armies can defend. If you want to all attack at once, you must merge your armies into one and attack with that. Otherwise, they will attack one after the other, drastically weakening your offense and most likely wasting every soldier you send into battle. Also, armies will move at the speed of their slowest unit.
- Defending armies get a defense bonus from terrain, as well as the city, as long as it belongs to their country. Forests 25%, Swamps/Hills 50%, Mountains 75%. The maximum defense bonus is 200% with all the city upgrades on a mountain. Siege engines can reduce city defense bonuses, but not natural ones.
- There's a little counter on the bottom right of the movement UI that shows how many squares you can move. You can no longer move when it equals 0 or less. You can move into terrain that costs more than you have left as long as you're still above 0.
- Armies are exponentially more powerful the more units they have over the other army, because it allows them to deal more damage at once, weakening the other army on their next turn.
So keep all that in mind when you're fielding units against each other.
Post by: scapheap on February 26, 2015, 03:04:49 am
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Criptfeind on February 26, 2015, 09:05:05 am
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: hector13 on February 26, 2015, 10:31:26 am
Spoiler: Turn 13 (click to show/hide)
Post by: Kashyyk on February 26, 2015, 10:44:56 am
Slight clarification, as it could be misinterpreted. You always gain the natural defence bonus if you are the defender, but you only gain the fortifications bonus if you are in a city that you own.
- Defending armies get a defense bonus from terrain, as well as the city, as long as it belongs to their country.
Post by: a1s on February 26, 2015, 11:44:01 am
You mean quadratically (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lanchester%27s_laws#Lanchester.27s_Square_Law)?
- Armies are exponentially more powerful the more units they have over the other army, because it allows them to deal more damage at once, weakening the other army on their next turn.
Post by: Squeegy on February 26, 2015, 12:21:35 pm
Spoiler: Turn 13 (click to show/hide)
Turn 14 (http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=5edGTraf)
Player interface (http://dl.dropbox.com/u/28942516/PlayerInterface.swf)
Admin Interface (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/28942516/AdminInterface.swf)
Westerners - Pencil_Art
Islanders - hector13
Manen - scapheap
Southerners - SilverDragon
Easterners - Criptfiend
Post by: hector13 on February 26, 2015, 12:28:17 pm
Spoiler: Turn 14 (click to show/hide)
Post by: Criptfeind on February 26, 2015, 09:45:39 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Pencil_Art on February 26, 2015, 11:37:08 pm
Spoiler: Turn 14 (click to show/hide)
Post by: scapheap on February 27, 2015, 05:44:18 am
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Squeegy on February 28, 2015, 12:26:48 am
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Turn 14 (click to show/hide)
Turn 15 (http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=jkEMZaPu)
Player interface (http://dl.dropbox.com/u/28942516/PlayerInterface.swf)
Admin Interface (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/28942516/AdminInterface.swf)
Westerners - Pencil_Art
Islanders - hector13
Manen - scapheap
Southerners - SilverDragon
Easterners - Criptfiend
Post by: hector13 on February 28, 2015, 12:35:28 am
Spoiler: Turn 15 (click to show/hide)
Post by: Pencil_Art on February 28, 2015, 01:22:09 am
Spoiler: Turn 15 (click to show/hide)
Post by: scapheap on February 28, 2015, 05:51:24 am
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Criptfeind on February 28, 2015, 08:08:10 am
Skipping SilverDragon because he's taken 36 hours.
You've literally undone something he did in his last turn. Automating someone seems all well and good when what they want to do is obvious, but when it's not a little bit of patience seems like it would be a valuable thing. 36 hours isn't that long. (Especially when it's not like we even have rules about turn times...)
Post by: SilverDragon on February 28, 2015, 10:59:20 am
Spoiler: Turn 15 (click to show/hide)
Post by: Squeegy on February 28, 2015, 11:32:52 am
I sent him a PM reminding him of his turn, and he had been online since then and did not take his turn. So I automated him. I warned him in the past that he was holding up the game and that I would have to replace him if he couldn't keep up with the other players. So it's only by his request that I'm auto'ing him at all, instead of just replacing him with Rolepgeek. I undid something he did in his last turn because it looked like he was going to make an extremely poor decision, and while I'd be willing to let him make that poor decision on his own, since I was taking over for him, I undid it.Skipping SilverDragon because he's taken 36 hours.
You've literally undone something he did in his last turn. Automating someone seems all well and good when what they want to do is obvious, but when it's not a little bit of patience seems like it would be a valuable thing. 36 hours isn't that long. (Especially when it's not like we even have rules about turn times...)
Post by: Criptfeind on February 28, 2015, 11:34:33 am
Like, a three day timer seems pretty reasonable to stop the GM from fucking you over, specially since you're going to enter with your own overpowered fraction in another couple of dozen turns, so you won't even be unbiased then.
Post by: Squeegy on February 28, 2015, 11:39:44 am
Also, I'm going to introduce an NPC threat in more than twice the number of turns we've already taken, and when I submit the turns for that, I will do it before I handle any of the turns submitted by other players so that I don't know what they're going to do. The idea that I'm going to enter with an "overpowered faction" is kind of laughable, honestly; I'm going to do my best to balance it to whatever stage you guys are at at the time, and was even planning to delay it if you didn't seem like you were ready. What's with the sudden outburst of bitching? I didn't fuck him over, I actually helped him, considering I have more experience with the game than him, and any action he was planning to take with that maneuver was ill-advised.
Post by: Criptfeind on February 28, 2015, 11:41:55 am
Post by: Squeegy on February 28, 2015, 12:05:59 pm
Post by: SilverDragon on February 28, 2015, 01:27:36 pm
Post by: Criptfeind on February 28, 2015, 01:43:15 pm
Post by: Squeegy on February 28, 2015, 03:18:11 pm
In point of fact I wasn't even able to open bay12forums for the past two days, which is why I did not post, and it won't happen again, because my data reset. Also if any of you move to Australia I do not recommend purchasing a bliNK WiFi.
All Australian wifi is terrible, or so I've heard. It's really nothing personal, I like you, but these turns cannot take 36 hours this early in the game, or it's going to take forever to get to the point where you're doing more than 2-3 things a turn. Even though I like having you in the game, I'd rather replace you with someone else than wait that long every turn. I'll do what I have to do to keep the pace up. If you weren't the only one who was constantly late, I wouldn't auto anyone.
Post by: lemon10 on February 28, 2015, 04:09:46 pm
Also, I'm going to introduce an NPC threat in more than twice the number of turns we've already taken, and when I submit the turns for that, I will do it before I handle any of the turns submitted by other players so that I don't know what they're going to do. The idea that I'm going to enter with an "overpowered faction" is kind of laughable, honestly; I'm going to do my best to balance it to whatever stage you guys are at at the time, and was even planning to delay it if you didn't seem like you were ready. What's with the sudden outburst of bitching? I didn't fuck him over, I actually helped him, considering I have more experience with the game than him, and any action he was planning to take with that maneuver was ill-advised.You should probably try to be a little more chill about all this Squeegy.
Also, if he is planning on an action that is stupid, you shouldn't have really intervened when his intention was pretty clear (sending all his troops north, presumably to murder themselves against the Easterners). I know its god awfully painful to watch over like 3 turns while a new player does something stupid, and as a result gets majorly screwed over. But it isn't really fair to the other players to intervene on their behalf.
I'm aware I'm a complete hypocrite about this, as during the game I was adminning two games ago I autoed players far more effectively then they played themselves (and would probably have done the same action you did with his army), but you should still endeavor to try to auto the players at a equivalent efficiency to how they themselves are playing.
Post by: Squeegy on February 28, 2015, 04:17:13 pm
That's exactly what it looked like his intention was. It was pretty clear, but I discussed it with the parties involved and reverted the decision. I wouldn't have intervened if I wasn't auto'ing him, and the only other thing I could have done was just leave his army there because I didn't know what he was doing it, so I think he actually came off better this way than that.Also, I'm going to introduce an NPC threat in more than twice the number of turns we've already taken, and when I submit the turns for that, I will do it before I handle any of the turns submitted by other players so that I don't know what they're going to do. The idea that I'm going to enter with an "overpowered faction" is kind of laughable, honestly; I'm going to do my best to balance it to whatever stage you guys are at at the time, and was even planning to delay it if you didn't seem like you were ready. What's with the sudden outburst of bitching? I didn't fuck him over, I actually helped him, considering I have more experience with the game than him, and any action he was planning to take with that maneuver was ill-advised.You should probably try to be a little more chill about all this Squeegy.
Also, if he is planning on an action that is stupid, you shouldn't have really intervened when his intention was pretty clear (sending all his troops north, presumably to murder themselves against the Easterners). I know its god awfully painful to watch over like 3 turns while a new player does something stupid, and as a result gets majorly screwed over. But it isn't really fair to the other players to intervene on their behalf.
I'm aware I'm a complete hypocrite about this, as during the game I was adminning two games ago I autoed players far more effectively then they played themselves (and would probably have done the same action you did with his army), but you should still endeavor to try to auto the players at a equivalent efficiency to how they themselves are playing.
I felt the way Criptfiend approached this was rather rude, so that is why my tone was terse.
Post by: lemon10 on February 28, 2015, 04:27:39 pm
Post by: Criptfeind on February 28, 2015, 05:21:01 pm
Post by: Squeegy on February 28, 2015, 05:23:59 pm
Post by: lemon10 on February 28, 2015, 05:27:55 pm
Post by: Squeegy on February 28, 2015, 05:33:57 pm
Post by: lemon10 on February 28, 2015, 05:52:47 pm
Yeah, things would probably end fairly badly for everyone else if I took the Easterners.
Also, suggestions for everyone:
You typically want to build your cities so that you can improve the maximum amount of land with the minimum amount of city population.
In addition, you also typically want to avoid building cities so that any one point is connected to multiple cities, because it makes things much harder tactically for you if an enemy can choose any of multiple cities to attack.
Post by: Pencil_Art on February 28, 2015, 05:55:30 pm
Post by: Squeegy on February 28, 2015, 06:01:01 pm
Post by: lemon10 on February 28, 2015, 06:04:46 pm
Its not super easy to make them fit right due to how they have a range of sqrt(5) at pop 4+ instead of a proper square, but its possible to some degree with a small amount of overlap.
E: Scratch that. My experience as Ireland isn't helpful here, since your goal isn't to expand as fast as humanly possible at the expense of everything else. Significant overlap is fine, but you do want to avoid having cities directly adjacent to a central point, at least while you can avoid it.
Post by: Rolepgeek on February 28, 2015, 06:12:39 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Squeegy on February 28, 2015, 06:30:08 pm
Spoiler: Turn 15 (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Battle Log (click to show/hide)
Turn 16 (http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=ytUtHfrS)
Player interface (http://dl.dropbox.com/u/28942516/PlayerInterface.swf)
Admin Interface (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/28942516/AdminInterface.swf)
Westerners - Pencil_Art
Islanders - hector13
Manen - scapheap
Southerners - SilverDragon
Easterners - Rolepgeek
Post by: Pencil_Art on February 28, 2015, 07:48:47 pm
Spoiler: Turn 16 (click to show/hide)
Post by: Squeegy on February 28, 2015, 08:01:25 pm
Post by: Rolepgeek on February 28, 2015, 08:52:50 pm
Thank you. Not a big deal, really, just little things that help.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Squeegy on February 28, 2015, 09:33:13 pm
Post by: scapheap on March 01, 2015, 03:45:46 am
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: SilverDragon on March 01, 2015, 04:26:15 am
Spoiler: Turn 16 (click to show/hide)
Post by: hector13 on March 01, 2015, 10:45:03 am
Spoiler: Turn 16 (click to show/hide)
Post by: Squeegy on March 01, 2015, 01:57:23 pm
Spoiler: Turn 16 (click to show/hide)
Turn 17 (http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=veP6X1Pq)
Player interface (http://dl.dropbox.com/u/28942516/PlayerInterface.swf)
Admin Interface (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/28942516/AdminInterface.swf)
Westerners - Pencil_Art
Islanders - hector13
Manen - scapheap
Southerners - SilverDragon
Easterners - Rolepgeek
Post by: hector13 on March 01, 2015, 02:04:10 pm
Spoiler: Turn 17 (click to show/hide)
Post by: scapheap on March 01, 2015, 02:04:29 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Rolepgeek on March 01, 2015, 05:50:09 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: lemon10 on March 02, 2015, 09:38:01 pm
Post by: Squeegy on March 02, 2015, 09:51:38 pm
Post by: Pencil_Art on March 02, 2015, 10:22:48 pm
Post by: Pencil_Art on March 02, 2015, 10:26:18 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: SilverDragon on March 02, 2015, 11:28:22 pm
Post by: Squeegy on March 02, 2015, 11:33:58 pm
Post by: SilverDragon on March 03, 2015, 01:36:55 am
Spoiler: Turn17 (click to show/hide)
Post by: Squeegy on March 03, 2015, 01:59:03 am
Spoiler: Turn 17 (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Battle Log (click to show/hide)
Pro-tip: Always check in the Admin Interface whether or not you're likely to win a fight before you commit to it. You're capable of viewing the unit composition of other nations' armies.
Turn 18 (http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=AbbHEyjv)
Player interface (http://dl.dropbox.com/u/28942516/PlayerInterface.swf)
Admin Interface (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/28942516/AdminInterface.swf)
Westerners - Pencil_Art
Islanders - hector13
Manen - scapheap
Southerners - SilverDragon
Easterners - Rolepgeek
Post by: SilverDragon on March 03, 2015, 02:11:33 am
Post by: Pencil_Art on March 03, 2015, 02:14:09 am
Spoiler: Turn 18 (click to show/hide)
Post by: Squeegy on March 03, 2015, 02:15:05 am
Post by: scapheap on March 03, 2015, 03:54:49 am
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: SilverDragon on March 03, 2015, 04:26:21 am
Spoiler: Turn 18 (click to show/hide)
Post by: hector13 on March 03, 2015, 12:11:41 pm
Spoiler: Turn 18 (click to show/hide)
Post by: Kashyyk on March 03, 2015, 02:21:03 pm
It's not really metagaming. Metagaming is putting other people's actions for that turn into the admin interface so you know what they're going to do before they do it. Checking out how well your army might fare against an enemy force is just strategy.
Expanding on that, Vanigo actively encourages checking out what resources your opponents have/are short on, what buildings their cities have, etc. It's all technically possible to read in the game XML anyway, so using the admin interface is just easier.
Post by: Squeegy on March 03, 2015, 02:56:57 pm
Post by: lemon10 on March 03, 2015, 06:53:55 pm
But that's metagaming! I'll get around to my turn eventually but atm I'm busy.As everyone else has said, its not metagaming, its simply playing smart.
I would consider THAT metagaming, or at least bad sportsmanship. You can technically just open the spoiler and read what your opponents are doing too. That doesn't make it right.Anything you can do in the Player Interface or learn in the Admin interface is allowed and acceptable, as they are both the tools being given to you. Or, at least it was in every previous game, if you feel strongly enough you could indeed forbid people to check out what resources and buildings other players have.
Reading your opponents spoiler is different, as thats explicitly forbidden, and the information isn't freely given to every player.
While reading your opponents spoilers is cheating, neither is really metagaming.
Post by: Rolepgeek on March 03, 2015, 07:04:19 pm
Post by: Squeegy on March 03, 2015, 07:28:09 pm
For that matter, I'm inclined to allow unit trading, which is apparently frowned upon in previous versions, but I'll have to ask NQT why he forbid it first.
Post by: lemon10 on March 03, 2015, 07:38:14 pm
For that matter, I'm inclined to allow unit trading, which is apparently frowned upon in previous versions, but I'll have to ask NQT why he forbid it first.Basically because it and city/terrain trading caused more problems (mainly in complicating the trading rules to prevent exploits) than they were worth.
Post by: SilverDragon on March 03, 2015, 07:50:26 pm
Post by: Squeegy on March 03, 2015, 07:51:56 pm
Anyway, as soon as Rolepgeek submits his turn we can move on.
It goes against my 'moral ideas' to use a tactic like that. It's like being able to go back and time and change your plans, so I won't use it, even if you guys say it's okay.Ok, as long as you're aware this puts you at a disadvantage, and you're already pretty much the underdog in this game.
Post by: Rolepgeek on March 03, 2015, 08:26:13 pm
If you don't want us to use the admin interface, don't post the link to it with each turn. I mean, really man. >.> Half the time I do it simply so I can tell what things people might want/have for trade.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: SilverDragon on March 03, 2015, 08:28:32 pm
Post by: Squeegy on March 03, 2015, 08:37:05 pm
My point was that you could achieve such information without needing to use the Admin interface; the admin interface just makes it easier.Here's my justification: Accessing that information basically gives you access to a player's economic weaknesses. That's pretty privileged information to have on your rivals, so it's unfair for you to just look at it the same way it's unfair to intercept their orders to their armies and settlements. If they're short on wood, then you know that unless they trade with someone they're not going to be able to produce wood-heavy units, which means that destroying their units is costly to them. It's fine for them to reveal this information to you through diplomacy and trade. It's not okay for you to look it up on your own. The admin interface link is more for me than it is for you guys, except to test out battles, since that doesn't give you any information about your opponents you couldn't get through the player interface.
If you don't want us to use the admin interface, don't post the link to it with each turn. I mean, really man. >.> Half the time I do it simply so I can tell what things people might want/have for trade.Spoiler (click to show/hide)
So don't do it.
Post by: lemon10 on March 03, 2015, 08:59:42 pm
I'll be the worst player here regardless of if I use the admin interface. I'll take my chances.Yeah, but not using it to simulate battles is something that will quite probably cost you the game. Amusingly its more important the less experience you have, because you have less experience on judging how a battle will go.
It seems odd to say "I'm probably the worst at the game, so I won't use very important tools, even though not using them will make me worse player".\
*Shrugs* its all up to you to play how you want to though.
Post by: Rolepgeek on March 03, 2015, 09:04:27 pm
And what's more, there is no fog of war or anything beyond not knowing what they'll do next turn, so trying to implement it resource wise just makes it a pain in the ass for everyone involved.
Post by: Squeegy on March 03, 2015, 09:11:45 pm
Spoiler: Turn 18 (click to show/hide)
Turn 19 (http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=y3su5Djs)
Player interface (http://dl.dropbox.com/u/28942516/PlayerInterface.swf)
Admin Interface (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/28942516/AdminInterface.swf)
Westerners - Pencil_Art
Islanders - hector13
Manen - scapheap
Southerners - SilverDragon
Easterners - Rolepgeek
Post by: Rolepgeek on March 03, 2015, 09:25:52 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Pencil_Art on March 03, 2015, 10:03:36 pm
Spoiler: Turn 19 (click to show/hide)
Post by: SilverDragon on March 03, 2015, 10:05:00 pm
Post by: scapheap on March 04, 2015, 03:29:19 am
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: hector13 on March 04, 2015, 01:59:52 pm
Spoiler: Turn 19 (click to show/hide)
Post by: SilverDragon on March 05, 2015, 02:45:30 am
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Squeegy on March 05, 2015, 03:29:16 am
Spoiler: Turn 19 (click to show/hide)
Turn 20 (http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=VwAwDUkT)
Player interface (http://dl.dropbox.com/u/28942516/PlayerInterface.swf)
Admin Interface (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/28942516/AdminInterface.swf)
Westerners - Pencil_Art
Islanders - hector13
Manen - scapheap
Southerners - SilverDragon
Easterners - Rolepgeek
Post by: scapheap on March 05, 2015, 04:22:30 am
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: SilverDragon on March 05, 2015, 04:35:57 am
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Rolepgeek on March 05, 2015, 09:29:03 am
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: hector13 on March 05, 2015, 12:18:21 pm
Spoiler: Turn 20 (click to show/hide)
Edited for silliness.
Post by: Pencil_Art on March 05, 2015, 11:22:40 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Squeegy on March 05, 2015, 11:28:38 pm
Spoiler: Turn 20 (click to show/hide)
Turn 21 (http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=TUZM52JS)
Player interface (http://dl.dropbox.com/u/28942516/PlayerInterface.swf)
Admin Interface (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/28942516/AdminInterface.swf)
Westerners - Pencil_Art
Islanders - hector13
Manen - scapheap
Southerners - SilverDragon
Easterners - Rolepgeek
Post by: SilverDragon on March 06, 2015, 12:20:14 am
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: hector13 on March 06, 2015, 12:20:28 am
Spoiler: Turn 21 (click to show/hide)
Post by: Pencil_Art on March 06, 2015, 12:22:41 am
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Squeegy on March 06, 2015, 02:27:51 am
Post by: SilverDragon on March 06, 2015, 02:28:50 am
Post by: Squeegy on March 06, 2015, 02:37:44 am
Nevermind, apparently that is due to proximity to a town. Anything smaller than a city can only build improvements on adjacent tiles, and otherwise you can only build them in a 2-square circle around the city (so a 2-square diagonal can't be built on). I actually don't like this, at all, but it looks hardcoded so there's nothing I can really do. I'll wait for lemon's comment on the matter, but I'm inclined to allow manual building anyway.
Post by: scapheap on March 06, 2015, 11:21:30 am
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Rolepgeek on March 06, 2015, 08:47:54 pm
If anyone is getting the error "You can't build an improvement there." on tiles that you clearly should be able to build an improvement on, include the order in your spoiler but outside your code tags (e.g. 'Build Farm on (15,32)'), and I will do it manually for you. I don't understand why that is happening, those tiles are no different from the others in the XML.
Nevermind, apparently that is due to proximity to a town. Anything smaller than a city can only build improvements on adjacent tiles, and otherwise you can only build them in a 2-square circle around the city (so a 2-square diagonal can't be built on). I actually don't like this, at all, but it looks hardcoded so there's nothing I can really do. I'll wait for lemon's comment on the matter, but I'm inclined to allow manual building anyway.
...And this makes me realize that you, me, and SilverDragon have completely ideas as to what 'cheating'(/metagaming or whatever it doesn't matter same idea) means. At least in regards to this game.
Because to me, that feels like cheating, while viewing someone's resources (though it's not like a thing i would do every turn; it's mostly a matter of 'oh shit they can outproduce me by a shitton' or 'oh boy they have lots of iron and need wood, and I have lots of wood but need iron'), or running battle simulations(which I rarely do mostly because it's a pain) does not. To you, meanwhile, A and C are fine but not B. And to SilverDragon, C is not okay and probably neither is B since apparently he likes going in blind. :P
Anyway.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Squeegy on March 06, 2015, 09:04:03 pm
Spoiler: Turn 21 (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Battle Log (click to show/hide)
I will say, however, that I quite like the way you name all of your units and armies. If you'd like to rename your faction to something other than 'Easterners,' let me know.
Turn 22 (http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=2ZAxj1f5)
Player interface (http://dl.dropbox.com/u/28942516/PlayerInterface.swf)
Admin Interface (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/28942516/AdminInterface.swf)
Westerners - Pencil_Art
Islanders - hector13
Manen - scapheap
Southerners - SilverDragon
Easterners - Rolepgeek
Post by: Rolepgeek on March 06, 2015, 10:41:44 pm
I'll give you my side:My view of cheating is based on the guy who made the game. Vanigo designed it, and he encouraged checking enemy status. Knowing is half the battle.
Additionally, you continue to, in effect, attack me, for a rules change I suggested, basically in passing, which is not a form of cheating - it may be unsportsmanlike to ask for such a thing if there was not prior precedent, and possibly even if there was, but it breaks no rules.
Resources were never privileged information, just like troop count or location never was. They are an integral part of strategy; taking advantage of your enemy's weaknesses is half the point. Or at least they were in previous games, especially since they can see yours, too. Likewise, city placement was meant to lend itself both to spreading yourself out but not too far, so that you couldn't expand without limit before even bothering with cities.
As for name, I'm not sure....Maybe once we're bigger.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Pencil_Art on March 06, 2015, 10:55:01 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: SilverDragon on March 06, 2015, 11:00:44 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Squeegy on March 06, 2015, 11:17:32 pm
Spoiler: Derailing (click to show/hide)
Speaking of the Danes, I'd like to make clear the way the Golden Horde will work: They will spawn with an army appropriate to the military strength of the other players in the game, and attempt to take over an existing city, and then will attempt to complete the same win condition as everyone else: Wiping out all the other players. Every 20 turns a larger part of the Horde will enter the map from the desert pass, until the entire Golden Horde is here, at which point they can be wiped out like any other civ. I think they're a fair challenge, intended to unite all the other players in destroying them, and actually start at a disadvantage since they will have no cities and have to take existing ones before they can begin playing normally. The Southerner civ was intended to be sort of like the Night Watch in guarding against their inevitable invasion, since they are refugees from a homeland that was destroyed by the Golden Horde and are placed directly north of where they'll enter the map. Other civs would probably do well to aid them in this fight. Diplomacy!
Post by: Pencil_Art on March 06, 2015, 11:20:48 pm
Quote
War is a valid form of diplomacy.
Post by: Squeegy on March 06, 2015, 11:22:59 pm
Post by: SilverDragon on March 06, 2015, 11:25:33 pm
Post by: Squeegy on March 06, 2015, 11:29:10 pm
Post by: SilverDragon on March 06, 2015, 11:52:15 pm
Post by: Rolepgeek on March 07, 2015, 12:08:08 am
Spoiler: Derailing (click to show/hide)
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Yeah, well... guess I'll stop.Pansy! Kill! KILL!!!
What fun is there without conflict, in this? Keep your opponents from outgrowing you, gain crucial experience for both the commander(aka you) and your troops through the skirmishing, and make the game more interesting. No real reason not to, actually.
Post by: Squeegy on March 07, 2015, 12:57:16 am
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Question for SilverDragon, Pencil_Art, hector13, and scapheap: Do you think you should be able to look at other players' resources and city buildings?
Post by: SilverDragon on March 07, 2015, 01:00:14 am
Post by: Pencil_Art on March 07, 2015, 01:10:20 am
Post by: Rolepgeek on March 07, 2015, 01:57:59 am
No, though it wouldn't affect me much. There's already enough odd resources for me to be confused about.
Inspiration used for the special buildings, which rise by 10 in Inspiration cost for every other inspiration building in the city. Armies cost money, both upkeep and recruit. Any other ones confusing you?
Post by: lemon10 on March 07, 2015, 03:25:51 am
Nevermind, apparently that is due to proximity to a town. Anything smaller than a city can only build improvements on adjacent tiles, and otherwise you can only build them in a 2-square circle around the city (so a 2-square diagonal can't be built on). I actually don't like this, at all, but it looks hardcoded so there's nothing I can really do. I'll wait for lemon's comment on the matter, but I'm inclined to allow manual building anyway.You can admin build improvements for people if you want, but it seems like a whole lot of work (since you will need to be building multiple for every single player every turn) for not much reason, unless you entirely remove the need to have cities anywhere near where you are building improvements. And yes, it is hardcoded.
Re: Cheating discussion. I agree with Role, largely because A) That's the way its been in every past game (and how Vanigo decided it should be), and B) Its part of the features of the admin interface (and freely available in the game info), and it seems a bit bizzare to just forbid a small part of it while still allowing the others.
Post by: Squeegy on March 07, 2015, 03:27:46 am
Post by: scapheap on March 07, 2015, 04:18:47 am
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
I don't really care about knowing resources and there no fog of war so buildings would be known.
Post by: Squeegy on March 07, 2015, 05:12:50 am
On an unrelated note, I raised the stone costs for many buildings in the ruleset I'm apparently developing. It won't have any effect on this game but if I run more in the future, it should encourage people to claim mountains or build quarries, or at least make stone not quite so useless a trade good.
Post by: Rolepgeek on March 07, 2015, 11:58:49 am
Post by: Squeegy on March 07, 2015, 12:14:29 pm
Post by: hector13 on March 07, 2015, 12:58:31 pm
Spoiler: Turn 22 (click to show/hide)
Post by: Squeegy on March 07, 2015, 01:21:00 pm
Spoiler: Turn 22 (click to show/hide)
Turn 23 (http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=UxL2kiFY)
Player interface (http://dl.dropbox.com/u/28942516/PlayerInterface.swf)
Admin Interface (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/28942516/AdminInterface.swf)
Westerners - Pencil_Art
Islanders - hector13
Manen - scapheap
Southerners - SilverDragon
Easterners - Rolepgeek
Post by: hector13 on March 07, 2015, 01:35:29 pm
Spoiler: Turn 23 (click to show/hide)
It seems unlikely that 5 enemies would have that level of intelligence on one another.
Post by: scapheap on March 07, 2015, 02:02:29 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Rolepgeek on March 07, 2015, 03:26:09 pm
It seems unlikely that 5 enemies would have that level of intelligence on one another.
Who says everyone's enemies?
Besides which, it seems far more unlikely to me that the Easterners would know the exact improvement levels of the lands under the control of the Westerners and Islanders, in addition to their exact troop composition and experience levels, yet be unable to remember whether the Southerners had built a fortress or just a palisade in that city. Aka: Either fully implement fog of war or forego it entirely. Don't muck about halfway.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: hector13 on March 07, 2015, 03:32:20 pm
Who says everyone's enemies?
The goal of the game is to destroy all the other factions.
:P
Besides which, it seems far more unlikely to me that the Easterners would know the exact improvement levels of the lands under the control of the Westerners and Islanders, in addition to their exact troop composition and experience levels, yet be unable to remember whether the Southerners had built a fortress or just a palisade in that city.
I'm not sure Squeegy can work it so that we can only get relatively specific information on one faction, and more general information about the rest.
My thoughts were basically that to know the location of everyone's armies and cities only really requires a scout, which doesn't need to be involved in the inner workings of armies or towns to know it, whereas to know what buildings there are in cities, how much population, resources etc. requires a much larger and more involved intelligence network, which we would essentially be getting for free.
Post by: Squeegy on March 07, 2015, 03:35:29 pm
Post by: Rolepgeek on March 07, 2015, 03:38:03 pm
He can't do either, since it would entail hardcoding the interface. He could forbid one thing or another and hope we abide by the honor system.
And when everyone gets that for free, it's an even playing field. Besides which, again, we can tell the exact composition, skill level, and number of the enemy troops hiding in that city, but we can't know whether it's a juicy target that's worth risking the fight for since it lacks defensive buildings but has several good troop producers(and we can't see buildings, but we can see what their resource production is? Because that makes sense?), or is a death-trap bottleneck designed with the express purpose of telling any and all attackers to fuck off in great big flashing letters. Aka: How come we can see the veteran pikemen behind the stone walls, but not the stone walls themselves? How come we can tell exactly what they're producing in each tile and what they build, but can't put two and two together and get some scholars to keep track of that information?
Post by: hector13 on March 07, 2015, 03:51:07 pm
Resource production appears to happen almost entirely outside of cities, so again all it takes is a scout going "okay, there are three farms, a mine and a fishery, lets get this back to the analysts back home." and then they come up with an estimation of resource production.
I know we can't do it the way I would like to see it because of the coding aspect, and that not everyone is going to share my view on it. I don't mind if others do it, I'm just disinclined to do it even if it hamstrings me a little. (disinclined, not completely averse. I'll likely start doing it when I get more involved in the military aspect, but then I can fob it off as part of the upkeep of the army)
Post by: Squeegy on March 07, 2015, 03:58:36 pm
Post by: Pencil_Art on March 07, 2015, 04:15:01 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: hector13 on March 07, 2015, 04:17:56 pm
Well, the question is whether it should be allowed for anyone to do, not whether you would do it.
Is there anything you can do about it to stop it, beyond telling people not to do it though?
I'm not saying people would do it even if you specifically said not to, just that the possibility is there. There's not really any way to prove someone has, or to punish them if they do, either.
Post by: lemon10 on March 07, 2015, 04:54:12 pm
No, there isn't anything he could do. Even if he stopped posting links to the admin interface in the game and removed all the ones he has in the thread, the admin interface would still be there (and linked in every other thread that has played this game), and people could still use it.Well, the question is whether it should be allowed for anyone to do, not whether you would do it.
Is there anything you can do about it to stop it, beyond telling people not to do it though?
I'm not saying people would do it even if you specifically said not to, just that the possibility is there. There's not really any way to prove someone has, or to punish them if they do, either.
Further then that, the info is also in plaintext in the savegame info, and could be easily read without even having the admin interface.
Also, the realism issue seems a bit silly to me. Its a game, and it doesn't really matter what is more realistic, simply which is more interesting for the game and fun. That said, it is probably realistic that it would be easier to tell what large public buildings exist in a city then the exact troops composition of a nations armies.
*Shrugs* I don't really care about it that much since I'm not playing though.
Post by: SilverDragon on March 07, 2015, 08:17:04 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Squeegy on March 07, 2015, 09:52:12 pm
Spoiler: Turn 23 (click to show/hide)
Turn 24 (http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=uXA0fZtu)
Player interface (http://dl.dropbox.com/u/28942516/PlayerInterface.swf)
Admin Interface (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/28942516/AdminInterface.swf)
Westerners - Pencil_Art
Islanders - hector13
Manen - scapheap
Southerners - SilverDragon
Easterners - Rolepgeek
Post by: hector13 on March 07, 2015, 10:04:37 pm
Spoiler: Turn 24 (click to show/hide)
Post by: Rolepgeek on March 07, 2015, 10:13:49 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: SilverDragon on March 08, 2015, 07:34:02 am
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: scapheap on March 08, 2015, 01:44:05 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Pencil_Art on March 09, 2015, 10:07:52 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Squeegy on March 09, 2015, 10:15:20 pm
Spoiler: Turn 24 (click to show/hide)
Fun fact: Westerners, Easterners, and Manen are all essentially neck-and-neck.
Turn 25 (http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=HPpPddw1)
Player interface (http://dl.dropbox.com/u/28942516/PlayerInterface.swf)
Admin Interface (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/28942516/AdminInterface.swf)
Westerners - Pencil_Art
Islanders - hector13
Manen - scapheap
Southerners - SilverDragon
Easterners - Rolepgeek
Post by: hector13 on March 09, 2015, 10:23:37 pm
Spoiler: Turn 25 (click to show/hide)
Post by: Rolepgeek on March 09, 2015, 10:39:14 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Pencil_Art on March 09, 2015, 10:59:24 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: SilverDragon on March 10, 2015, 12:20:41 am
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: scapheap on March 10, 2015, 09:49:44 am
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Squeegy on March 10, 2015, 11:40:58 am
Spoiler: Turn 25 (click to show/hide)
Turn 26 (http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=iYtj0NSM)
Player interface (http://dl.dropbox.com/u/28942516/PlayerInterface.swf)
Admin Interface (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/28942516/AdminInterface.swf)
Westerners - Pencil_Art
Islanders - hector13
Manen - scapheap
Southerners - SilverDragon
Easterners - Rolepgeek
Post by: Rolepgeek on March 10, 2015, 11:48:03 am
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: hector13 on March 10, 2015, 03:37:42 pm
Spoiler: Turn 26 (click to show/hide)
Post by: Pencil_Art on March 10, 2015, 11:45:03 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: SilverDragon on March 10, 2015, 11:48:26 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: scapheap on March 11, 2015, 05:11:45 am
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Squeegy on March 11, 2015, 05:23:40 pm
Spoiler: Turn 26 (click to show/hide)
Turn 27 (http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=WEHagjrT)
Player interface (http://dl.dropbox.com/u/28942516/PlayerInterface.swf)
Admin Interface (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/28942516/AdminInterface.swf)
Westerners - Pencil_Art
Islanders - hector13
Manen - scapheap
Southerners - SilverDragon
Easterners - Rolepgeek
Post by: hector13 on March 11, 2015, 05:46:25 pm
Spoiler: Turn 27 (click to show/hide)
Post by: Rolepgeek on March 11, 2015, 08:52:55 pm
Game, I am disappoint.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Squeegy on March 11, 2015, 08:55:26 pm
Post by: Rolepgeek on March 11, 2015, 08:57:38 pm
Make a Drydock building. That tends to be end-tier naval stuff. Maybe even an end-tier transport unit, a steam-barge or something.
Post by: Squeegy on March 11, 2015, 09:30:19 pm
Post by: Pencil_Art on March 11, 2015, 10:09:53 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Pencil_Art on March 12, 2015, 04:23:17 am
Post by: scapheap on March 12, 2015, 04:34:45 am
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: SilverDragon on March 12, 2015, 06:14:16 am
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Squeegy on March 12, 2015, 12:06:18 pm
Spoiler: Turn 27 (click to show/hide)
Turn 28 (http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=B9YH337Q)
Player interface (http://dl.dropbox.com/u/28942516/PlayerInterface.swf)
Admin Interface (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/28942516/AdminInterface.swf)
Westerners - Pencil_Art
Islanders - hector13
Manen - scapheap
Southerners - SilverDragon
Easterners - Rolepgeek
Post by: hector13 on March 12, 2015, 02:57:52 pm
Spoiler: Turn 28 (click to show/hide)
Post by: Rolepgeek on March 12, 2015, 08:45:50 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Squeegy on March 12, 2015, 09:11:27 pm
Post by: Rolepgeek on March 12, 2015, 09:32:48 pm
The point is it's an end-game building; they should be really damn expensive, because they're really damn good.
Post by: Squeegy on March 12, 2015, 09:35:07 pm
Post by: Rolepgeek on March 12, 2015, 09:46:59 pm
It really isn't.
Maybe it's just me though, since I'm making at least a dozen wood each turn. I dunno.
Post by: Squeegy on March 12, 2015, 09:56:21 pm
Post by: Rolepgeek on March 12, 2015, 10:16:42 pm
Then go look at how few forest tiles out of the many, many forest tiles surrounding me I have.
I think I'll be okay. Hopefully, so will everyone else. Curbstomping isn't any fun, after all...
Post by: Squeegy on March 12, 2015, 10:20:32 pm
Post by: SilverDragon on March 12, 2015, 10:25:12 pm
At least I've reached the point where I can continually create units to defend against the pricks hurrying to invade.
Post by: Squeegy on March 12, 2015, 10:26:33 pm
And the tutorial did tell you how to make a city.
Post by: SilverDragon on March 12, 2015, 11:27:05 pm
Post by: Squeegy on March 12, 2015, 11:40:19 pm
Post by: SilverDragon on March 12, 2015, 11:53:26 pm
Post by: Squeegy on March 12, 2015, 11:58:08 pm
Post by: Rolepgeek on March 13, 2015, 12:01:48 am
Post by: SilverDragon on March 13, 2015, 04:30:34 am
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Kashyyk on March 13, 2015, 05:22:55 am
Spoiler: Pencil_Art (click to show/hide)
Post by: scapheap on March 13, 2015, 06:00:20 am
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Squeegy on March 13, 2015, 06:11:08 am
Spoiler: Turn 28 (click to show/hide)
Turn 29 (http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=NqgF6aYB)
Player interface (http://dl.dropbox.com/u/28942516/PlayerInterface.swf)
Admin Interface (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/28942516/AdminInterface.swf)
Westerners - Pencil_Art
Islanders - hector13
Manen - scapheap
Southerners - SilverDragon
Easterners - Rolepgeek
Post by: Kashyyk on March 13, 2015, 06:40:10 am
Spoiler: Pencil_Art (click to show/hide)
Post by: SilverDragon on March 13, 2015, 06:45:44 am
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: scapheap on March 13, 2015, 07:48:27 am
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: hector13 on March 13, 2015, 08:17:01 am
Spoiler: Turn 29 (click to show/hide)
Post by: Rolepgeek on March 13, 2015, 07:58:08 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Oh, and The Kharen States would be a nice name, please!
Post by: Squeegy on March 13, 2015, 10:15:58 pm
Spoiler: Turn 29 (click to show/hide)
Turn 30 (http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=b8npAZq5)
Player interface (http://dl.dropbox.com/u/28942516/PlayerInterface.swf)
Admin Interface (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/28942516/AdminInterface.swf)
Westerners - Pencil_Art
Islanders - hector13
Manen - scapheap
Southerners - SilverDragon
Kharen States - Rolepgeek
Post by: Rolepgeek on March 13, 2015, 10:28:39 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Willing to trade my iron in exchange for Food. 8-1 exchange rate seems fair. Manen, I hope you're not sending that barge near me. Arachne can still krump ya.
Post by: Squeegy on March 13, 2015, 10:30:18 pm
e: Also, the Manen are currently in the lead, followed closely by the Westerners, even more closely by the Kharen States, with the Islanders lagging behind and the Southerners in dead last.
Post by: scapheap on March 14, 2015, 04:46:54 am
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Kashyyk on March 14, 2015, 10:03:22 am
Spoiler: Pencil_Art (click to show/hide)
Post by: SilverDragon on March 14, 2015, 10:14:46 am
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Pencil_Art on March 14, 2015, 05:55:53 pm
Post by: lemon10 on March 15, 2015, 07:00:57 pm
If a player loses control of both A) Any players starting city and B) Has no pop 6 cities. They they are no longer able to A) Build new cities, or B) Claim any new land. If they manage to get any capital back, or build up another pop 6 city, then the restriction would be lifted.
The main reason for this is so that it would be actually possible to defeat players without having to spend 20 turns wiping out every single tile of theirs out to prevent them from building up tiny spearmen armies and harassing you.
I probably should have put this out there way earlier, but seeing as no one has actually started a war yet (much less be dead), it seems like it still isn't too late. Thoughts?
Post by: notquitethere on March 15, 2015, 07:37:58 pm
Proposal:My view is that having to deal with the equivalent of guerilla warfare/peasant uprisings is an interesting part of the game: it's one thing to rush in and take a civilisation's cities, but quite another to be able to hold them, fight new wars and crush new build-up of local resistance at the same time. Also, often players just quit when they're in an unwinnable situation, but the option for tenacious players to play on should be there.
If a player loses control of both A) Any players starting city and B) Has no pop 6 cities. They they are no longer able to A) Build new cities, or B) Claim any new land. If they manage to get any capital back, or build up another pop 6 city, then the restriction would be lifted.
The main reason for this is so that it would be actually possible to defeat players without having to spend 20 turns wiping out every single tile of theirs out to prevent them from building up tiny spearmen armies and harassing you.
I probably should have put this out there way earlier, but seeing as no one has actually started a war yet (much less be dead), it seems like it still isn't too late. Thoughts?
It's interesting to see how peaceful everyone's being. I guess it must be in part due to how huge the map is. In the previous (non-Dark Age) Vanigo game (http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=y4uFuJDz), on turn 30 I was fighting a war against all five other players, raising fields and taking towns. If I was playing as the Southerners in this game, I'd use the superior iron production to amass axe men and send them on the East: large food-empires are powerful foes in the mid-to-end game so you've got to attack early on and steal their cities if you've got weak growth.
Post by: Squeegy on March 15, 2015, 08:17:43 pm
Proposal:
If a player loses control of both A) Any players starting city and B) Has no pop 6 cities. They they are no longer able to A) Build new cities, or B) Claim any new land. If they manage to get any capital back, or build up another pop 6 city, then the restriction would be lifted.
The main reason for this is so that it would be actually possible to defeat players without having to spend 20 turns wiping out every single tile of theirs out to prevent them from building up tiny spearmen armies and harassing you.
I probably should have put this out there way earlier, but seeing as no one has actually started a war yet (much less be dead), it seems like it still isn't too late. Thoughts?
Sure, that sounds good enough to me, as long as the players themselves are down with it.
It looks like hector13 is AWOL, he hasn't been online in two days. Should I auto him?
Post by: SilverDragon on March 15, 2015, 09:36:11 pm
Post by: Squeegy on March 15, 2015, 09:44:23 pm
Spoiler: hector13 (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Turn 30 (click to show/hide)
Turn 31 (http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=ij3KY0Dd)
Player interface (http://dl.dropbox.com/u/28942516/PlayerInterface.swf)
Admin Interface (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/28942516/AdminInterface.swf)
Westerners - Pencil_Art
Islanders - hector13
Manen - scapheap
Southerners - SilverDragon
Kharen States - Rolepgeek
Post by: Pencil_Art on March 15, 2015, 11:36:51 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: hector13 on March 16, 2015, 02:47:43 pm
Spoiler: turn 31 (click to show/hide)
Post by: lemon10 on March 16, 2015, 04:18:20 pm
It's interesting to see how peaceful everyone's being. I guess it must be in part due to how huge the map is. In the previous (non-Dark Age) Vanigo game (http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=y4uFuJDz), on turn 30 I was fighting a war against all five other players, raising fields and taking towns. If I was playing as the Southerners in this game, I'd use the superior iron production to amass axe men and send them on the East: large food-empires are powerful foes in the mid-to-end game so you've got to attack early on and steal their cities if you've got weak growth.Yeah, there are quite a few reasons.
1) The map is much larger. There is literally no need to be fighting over land before turn 100.
2) There are no critical resources. In the previous (non-Dark Age) game, both mana and iron was positioned so as to cause maximum conflict. Removing these removes a large part of the impetus for the war. It also removes the excuse that you are simply sending troops to protect your (already owned) resource point). Although there is still iron, there is much more of it, and every single player has some close enough that there is no way to snatch it from them without a full scale war.
3) The map is much larger (again) with rougher average terrain. This means that instead of units taking 5 turns to reach a enemy, they take 10 turns. Which doesn't sound super huge, but it does mean that instead of them being sure your troops are going to attack them (instead of simply sit on the boundary between your nations) 2 turns ahead, they are sure 5 turns ahead instead.
4) I was quite thorough in explaining my strategy this time around, which I suspect probably stopped one or two players from starting a early conflict.
Post by: scapheap on March 16, 2015, 04:31:40 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Squeegy on March 16, 2015, 08:06:25 pm
Quote from: lemon10 link=topic=148399.msg6104151#msg6104151
4) I was quite thorough in explaining my strategy this time around, which I suspect probably stopped one or two players from starting a early conflict.Yes, and I wish you wouldn't influence the game like that. Giving advice on how the system works is fine but telling people "this is the right way to play" just stifles the players' creativity and makes the game boring.
Post by: Rolepgeek on March 16, 2015, 09:13:36 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Don't worry Squeegy
The Golden Horde'll start some action, that's for sure.
Post by: lemon10 on March 16, 2015, 11:26:13 pm
*Shrugs*. I wouldn't have said anything more about it than a single post (which wouldn't really have convinced anyone) if you guys hadn't been arguing with me about it.Quote from: lemon10 link=topic=148399.msg6104151#msg61041514) I was quite thorough in explaining my strategy this time around, which I suspect probably stopped one or two players from starting a early conflict.Yes, and I wish you wouldn't influence the game like that. Giving advice on how the system works is fine but telling people "this is the right way to play" just stifles the players' creativity and makes the game boring.
But you are right, I really should have held back what I was saying a bit more.
Post by: Squeegy on March 17, 2015, 12:29:55 am
Post by: SilverDragon on March 17, 2015, 02:09:48 am
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Squeegy on March 17, 2015, 07:02:16 pm
Spoiler: Turn 31 (click to show/hide)
Turn 32 (http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=xSZ00WKg)
Player interface (http://dl.dropbox.com/u/28942516/PlayerInterface.swf)
Admin Interface (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/28942516/AdminInterface.swf)
Westerners - Pencil_Art
Islanders - hector13
Manen - scapheap
Southerners - SilverDragon
Kharen States - Rolepgeek
Post by: SilverDragon on March 17, 2015, 09:31:29 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Pencil_Art on March 17, 2015, 10:15:19 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: hector13 on March 18, 2015, 08:37:16 am
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Squeegy on March 18, 2015, 07:37:55 pm
Post by: Rolepgeek on March 18, 2015, 10:14:27 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Squeegy on March 19, 2015, 01:10:47 am
Post by: scapheap on March 19, 2015, 05:25:25 am
Post by: Kashyyk on March 19, 2015, 07:17:08 pm
Spoiler: scapheap (click to show/hide)
Post by: Squeegy on March 20, 2015, 07:34:05 am
Spoiler: Turn 32 (click to show/hide)
Turn 33 (http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=qPAbAdaJ)
Player interface (http://dl.dropbox.com/u/28942516/PlayerInterface.swf)
Admin Interface (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/28942516/AdminInterface.swf)
Westerners - Pencil_Art
Islanders - hector13
Manen - scapheap
Southerners - SilverDragon
Kharen States - Rolepgeek
Post by: Kashyyk on March 20, 2015, 09:16:34 am
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: hector13 on March 20, 2015, 09:44:58 am
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Pencil_Art on March 20, 2015, 03:48:26 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Rolepgeek on March 20, 2015, 08:22:10 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: SilverDragon on March 21, 2015, 07:33:27 am
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Squeegy on March 21, 2015, 08:02:08 am
Spoiler: Turn 33 (click to show/hide)
Turn 34 (http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=Tr996KMw)
Player interface (http://dl.dropbox.com/u/28942516/PlayerInterface.swf)
Admin Interface (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/28942516/AdminInterface.swf)
Westerners - Pencil_Art
Islanders - hector13
Manen - Kashyyk
Southerners - SilverDragon
Kharen States - Rolepgeek
Post by: SilverDragon on March 21, 2015, 08:23:33 am
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: hector13 on March 21, 2015, 08:28:10 am
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Rolepgeek on March 21, 2015, 03:29:55 pm
Also, SilverDragon, how are your Golden Horde defenses coming along?
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Also: Ah, the glories of not needing to do much for my turn.
Post by: Pencil_Art on March 21, 2015, 03:54:36 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Pencil_Art on March 21, 2015, 05:28:55 pm
Post by: SilverDragon on March 21, 2015, 06:44:45 pm
Post by: Squeegy on March 21, 2015, 07:55:57 pm
Post by: Rolepgeek on March 21, 2015, 07:59:43 pm
I ranked people based on how quickly they were expanding, so yes, population. And I personally enjoy doing a lot of things on my turn.Yes, but it means I never have to put off doing my turn, and it only takes me a few minutes, rather than half an hour or more.
Post by: Squeegy on March 22, 2015, 08:13:04 am
Post by: Rolepgeek on March 22, 2015, 12:47:22 pm
So, no response to my royalty idea for the end-game?I don't really like it. Too much risk and uncertainty in it for my liking. Lose a scant few slow troops and you're screwed?
Besides, who's to say the Kharen States aren't a Republic like the classical city-states of old?
Post by: Squeegy on March 22, 2015, 12:52:11 pm
They're intentionally slow so that they act as kings rather than pawns (or any other given chess piece). You're supposed to keep them safe, and you're not screwed so long as you have any more cities. You only need one of them and you get as many of them as you have cities that you've brought up to Metropolis. It's either that, or you need to have your starting city or any pop 6 city. This is basically the same thing, but actually more versatile and moveable.
Post by: Rolepgeek on March 22, 2015, 01:09:24 pm
No one, just name your royalty 'Senator So-and-So.'
They're intentionally slow so that they act as kings rather than pawns (or any other given chess piece). You're supposed to keep them safe, and you're not screwed so long as you have any more cities. You only need one of them and you get as many of them as you have cities that you've brought up to Metropolis. It's either that, or you need to have your starting city or any pop 6 city. This is basically the same thing, but actually more versatile and moveable.
Ah, that would work. Although in my case I basically view it as a coalition of monarchies(I was just making a point :P but you proved me wrong pretty easily).
True...So wait, is there any way to regain them once they're lost? Or do you just need to get more pop 6 cities?
And how will we keep track to make sure we remember which one's which?
I feel maybe there should be a unique non-producable Honor Guard unit for this purpose. Heavy Infantry give or take a bit in terms of stats(lower to represent mostly ceremonial purpose, or higher to represent best of the best; maybe just the same, since they probably wouldn't benefit from Barracks, Master Blacksmiths, or Health Fountains so it balances out to be that anyway) but 2 Movement(I'm sorry but 1 movement is just ridiculously slow and that's my biggest concern at the moment). Still not all that fast, horsemen can still catch up, but easier to keep track of and not quite so vulnerable. Can still be killed and are at risk of being killed, but it also gives an incentive to use them; they're quite good in a fight after all, and can keep up with slightly faster land armies. Risk and reward and all that.
I kinda like the idea of mercenaries units, actually. Cost money to hire, no stat boosts save experience(since that can be set by the GM), and require higher upkeep, but might actually have lower health(since they're just fighting for coin, and would thus leave the field of battle faster) or aren't under the player's direct control(though this would result in a headache for the GM, in all likelihood), or have a chance of switching sides when they lose(random chance or proportions-wise?) though the new owner can choose whether to keep or kill(keeping does cost money after all, and a turncoat can't be trusted...).
Might be too much complexity. Mostly I like the idea of Pirate Lords or something, and possibly roving bands of mercenaries and/or barbarian tribes that can be diplomancied. Again, probably too much complexity to be useful/fun.
So....just Kashyyk then?
Post by: Squeegy on March 22, 2015, 02:05:40 pm
Next game, I might roll some of these ideas in, but I think Heavy Infantry is just fine for the purpose now, because their high HP and defense make them good "stay at home and don't die" units. They can still accompany any army, for instance if you bring artillery along, but for the most part they are a symbolic victory piece. And yes, we're waiting on Kashyyk.
Post by: Kashyyk on March 22, 2015, 03:25:02 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Squeegy on March 22, 2015, 03:32:46 pm
Spoiler: Turn 34 (click to show/hide)
Whispers come from the Southern Hold, of clouds of sand seen on the horizon, through the mountain pass. Cries for mercy carried on the desert wind, the death rattles of the Southerners' kinsmen. The Golden Horde have taken the South, and they come now for these fertile lands.
Turn 35 (http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=LiK0N1zL)
Player interface (http://dl.dropbox.com/u/28942516/PlayerInterface.swf)
Admin Interface (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/28942516/AdminInterface.swf)
Westerners - Pencil_Art
Islanders - hector13
Manen - Kashyyk
Southerners - SilverDragon
Kharen States - Rolepgeek
Post by: Kashyyk on March 22, 2015, 03:39:24 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: hector13 on March 22, 2015, 04:27:32 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Rolepgeek on March 22, 2015, 06:33:20 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: SilverDragon on March 24, 2015, 07:41:37 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Pencil_Art on March 24, 2015, 11:09:55 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Squeegy on March 24, 2015, 11:13:29 pm
Spoiler: Turn 35 (click to show/hide)
Turn 36 (http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=Y54eUZhC)
Player interface (http://dl.dropbox.com/u/28942516/PlayerInterface.swf)
Admin Interface (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/28942516/AdminInterface.swf)
Westerners - Pencil_Art
Islanders - hector13
Manen - Kashyyk
Southerners - SilverDragon
Kharen States - Rolepgeek
Post by: Pencil_Art on March 24, 2015, 11:29:45 pm
Spoiler: Turn 36/Turn 37 :P (click to show/hide)
Post by: Rolepgeek on March 25, 2015, 12:02:01 am
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Also got Horses and Money, if you'd prefer.
Post by: hector13 on March 25, 2015, 12:50:24 am
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Squeegy on March 25, 2015, 01:09:48 am
Something about this turn is invalid. It won't accept it.Spoiler: Turn 36/Turn 37 :P (click to show/hide)
Post by: lemon10 on March 25, 2015, 01:31:58 am
(So it says 'playerturn player="Pencil_Art">' instead of '<playerturn player="Pencil_Art">').
Post by: Kashyyk on March 25, 2015, 07:02:32 am
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Pencil_Art on March 25, 2015, 11:06:46 pm
Fixed.Something about this turn is invalid. It won't accept it.Spoiler: Turn 36/Turn 37 :P (click to show/hide)
Post by: SilverDragon on March 26, 2015, 12:20:33 am
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Squeegy on March 26, 2015, 06:10:27 am
Spoiler: Turn 36 (click to show/hide)
Turn 37 (http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=tByKXeJb)
Player interface (http://dl.dropbox.com/u/28942516/PlayerInterface.swf)
Admin Interface (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/28942516/AdminInterface.swf)
Westerners - Pencil_Art
Islanders - hector13
Manen - Kashyyk
Southerners - SilverDragon
Kharen States - Rolepgeek
Post by: Kashyyk on March 26, 2015, 09:52:43 am
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Rolepgeek on March 26, 2015, 12:15:00 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: hector13 on March 26, 2015, 01:08:32 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Pencil_Art on March 26, 2015, 11:49:32 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: hector13 on March 27, 2015, 09:20:17 am
Post by: Squeegy on March 27, 2015, 04:43:17 pm
Post by: SilverDragon on March 27, 2015, 06:01:31 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Squeegy on March 27, 2015, 07:04:53 pm
Spoiler: Turn 37 (click to show/hide)
Turn 38 (http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=JkLPpv5x)
Player interface (http://dl.dropbox.com/u/28942516/PlayerInterface.swf)
Admin Interface (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/28942516/AdminInterface.swf)
Westerners - Pencil_Art
Islanders - hector13
Manen - Kashyyk
Southerners - SilverDragon
Kharen States - Rolepgeek
Post by: Rolepgeek on March 27, 2015, 07:24:53 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: hector13 on March 27, 2015, 08:09:26 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Pencil_Art on March 27, 2015, 08:15:34 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Kashyyk on March 27, 2015, 08:30:21 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: SilverDragon on March 29, 2015, 05:54:44 am
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Squeegy on March 29, 2015, 11:49:19 am
Spoiler: Turn 38 (click to show/hide)
Turn 39 (http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=gX10GdY0)
Player interface (http://dl.dropbox.com/u/28942516/PlayerInterface.swf)
Admin Interface (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/28942516/AdminInterface.swf)
Westerners - Pencil_Art
Islanders - hector13
Manen - Kashyyk
Southerners - SilverDragon
Kharen States - Rolepgeek
Post by: Rolepgeek on March 29, 2015, 11:53:08 am
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: hector13 on March 29, 2015, 12:05:53 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Kashyyk on March 29, 2015, 07:42:03 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Pencil_Art on March 29, 2015, 10:04:45 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: SilverDragon on March 30, 2015, 05:49:30 am
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: hector13 on March 30, 2015, 08:13:05 am
Post by: Rolepgeek on March 30, 2015, 10:47:32 am
Post by: Squeegy on March 30, 2015, 11:36:15 am
Spoiler: Turn 39 (click to show/hide)
Turn 40 (http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=XH3RnPqv)
Player interface (http://dl.dropbox.com/u/28942516/PlayerInterface.swf)
Admin Interface (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/28942516/AdminInterface.swf)
Westerners - Pencil_Art
Islanders - hector13
Manen - Kashyyk
Southerners - SilverDragon
Kharen States - Rolepgeek
Golden Horde - notquitethere
Post by: notquitethere on March 30, 2015, 11:56:00 am
Spoiler: Golden Horde (click to show/hide)
Post by: Rolepgeek on March 30, 2015, 01:16:26 pm
Fuck. At least it's not Lemon.
12 Horsemen? Shit. SilverDragon, I'm afraid you might be fucked. Buy us time, friend.
HEY NQT WANNA GO FIGHT MANEN? I CAN MAKE IT WORTH YOUR WHILE
Post by: notquitethere on March 30, 2015, 01:27:15 pm
Post by: Rolepgeek on March 30, 2015, 01:36:40 pm
I'd be tempted, but it'd take five turns for me to get to them, plenty of time for them to raise enough troops to protect their cities.
Damn.
Post by: Rolepgeek on March 30, 2015, 02:11:45 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: hector13 on March 30, 2015, 05:40:35 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
I can give Silver Dragon some cash in return for iron, should they so desire.
Post by: Squeegy on March 30, 2015, 06:19:16 pm
Post by: hector13 on March 30, 2015, 06:31:57 pm
Post by: Kashyyk on March 30, 2015, 07:43:24 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: SilverDragon on March 30, 2015, 09:04:33 pm
Post by: Pencil_Art on March 30, 2015, 10:03:33 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Rolepgeek on March 30, 2015, 11:13:55 pm
Coming with my army of Heavy Infantry and Catapults. Do not worry, Southerners! It will only take a couple years or so for my soldiers to get there.Catapults?
Really?
Pshaw.
Top tier or nothin'. :P
Post by: Pencil_Art on March 30, 2015, 11:15:25 pm
Post by: SilverDragon on March 30, 2015, 11:18:29 pm
Post by: Squeegy on March 30, 2015, 11:19:46 pm
Post by: Pencil_Art on March 30, 2015, 11:21:24 pm
Post by: Rolepgeek on March 30, 2015, 11:45:27 pm
I admit I'm a little perturbed you all went straight for the top tier units as quickly as possible, but I suppose you'll get your just desserts when the shitty masses of Golden Horde Horsemen flood intoFTFYyour citiesmy superbly well-designed deathtraps manned by the Kharen States' finest soldiers, all glory to the States.
Post by: Pencil_Art on March 31, 2015, 01:36:03 am
:PI admit I'm a little perturbed you all went straight for the top tier units as quickly as possible, but I suppose you'll get your just desserts when the shitty masses of Golden Horde Horsemen flood intoFTFYyour citiesmy superbly well-designed deathtraps manned by the Kharen States' finest soldiers, all glory to the States.
Post by: SilverDragon on April 01, 2015, 04:41:10 am
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Squeegy on April 01, 2015, 03:06:37 pm
Spoiler: Turn 40 (click to show/hide)
Turn 41 (http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=qVPsQBTR)
Player interface (http://dl.dropbox.com/u/28942516/PlayerInterface.swf)
Admin Interface (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/28942516/AdminInterface.swf)
Westerners - Pencil_Art
Islanders - hector13
Manen - Kashyyk
Southerners - SilverDragon
Kharen States - Rolepgeek
Golden Horde - notquitethere
Post by: hector13 on April 01, 2015, 03:43:40 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: notquitethere on April 01, 2015, 04:10:41 pm
Spoiler: Golden Horde (click to show/hide)
Due to an error in the way the program deals with landlessness, the Horde has -40 food. Could this be set back to 0?
Post by: Squeegy on April 01, 2015, 04:15:30 pm
Post by: Kashyyk on April 01, 2015, 06:01:58 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Pencil_Art on April 01, 2015, 10:18:07 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Rolepgeek on April 01, 2015, 11:48:06 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: SilverDragon on April 02, 2015, 04:01:37 am
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Squeegy on April 02, 2015, 11:41:24 am
Spoiler: Turn 41 (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Battle Log (click to show/hide)
Turn 42 (http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=nzXDhT1C)
Player interface (http://dl.dropbox.com/u/28942516/PlayerInterface.swf)
Admin Interface (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/28942516/AdminInterface.swf)
Westerners - Pencil_Art
Islanders - hector13
Manen - Kashyyk
Southerners - SilverDragon
Kharen States - Rolepgeek
Golden Horde - notquitethere
Post by: Kashyyk on April 02, 2015, 05:05:19 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Pencil_Art on April 02, 2015, 05:59:20 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Rolepgeek on April 02, 2015, 09:20:04 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: SilverDragon on April 03, 2015, 06:32:21 am
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: hector13 on April 03, 2015, 09:07:05 am
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: notquitethere on April 03, 2015, 10:33:51 am
Post by: Squeegy on April 03, 2015, 09:05:38 pm
Spoiler: Turn 42 (click to show/hide)
Turn 43 (http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=WD30jA9W)
Player interface (http://dl.dropbox.com/u/28942516/PlayerInterface.swf)
Admin Interface (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/28942516/AdminInterface.swf)
Westerners - Pencil_Art
Islanders - hector13
Manen - Kashyyk
Southerners - SilverDragon
Kharen States - Rolepgeek
Golden Horde - notquitethere
Post by: Pencil_Art on April 03, 2015, 09:42:40 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Rolepgeek on April 03, 2015, 10:46:00 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
You have aroused it
Post by: SilverDragon on April 03, 2015, 11:37:47 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: SilverDragon on April 04, 2015, 09:44:50 am
(Sorry for the doublepost, unsure if edits show up as a new reply.)
Post by: hector13 on April 04, 2015, 12:07:55 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Kashyyk on April 04, 2015, 06:35:45 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Pencil_Art on April 04, 2015, 08:16:08 pm
Waiting on Kashyyk and hector13.
(Sorry for the doublepost, unsure if edits show up as a new reply.)
No, edits show up on the original post, and it shows when you edited it.
Post by: SilverDragon on April 04, 2015, 10:01:50 pm
Post by: Squeegy on April 04, 2015, 10:07:39 pm
Spoiler: Turn 43 (click to show/hide)
Turn 44 (http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=pn1XMgDR)
Player interface (http://dl.dropbox.com/u/28942516/PlayerInterface.swf)
Admin Interface (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/28942516/AdminInterface.swf)
Westerners - Pencil_Art
Islanders - hector13
Manen - Kashyyk
Southerners - SilverDragon
Kharen States - Rolepgeek
Golden Horde - notquitethere
Post by: Rolepgeek on April 04, 2015, 10:41:27 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Pencil_Art on April 04, 2015, 11:00:04 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: SilverDragon on April 05, 2015, 02:57:31 am
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: hector13 on April 05, 2015, 09:16:13 am
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Kashyyk on April 05, 2015, 10:30:56 am
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Squeegy on April 05, 2015, 11:49:13 pm
Spoiler: Turn 44 (click to show/hide)
Turn 45 (http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=Na37xP9B)
Player interface (http://dl.dropbox.com/u/28942516/PlayerInterface.swf)
Admin Interface (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/28942516/AdminInterface.swf)
Westerners - Pencil_Art
Islanders - hector13
Manen - Kashyyk
Southerners - SilverDragon
Kharen States - Rolepgeek
Golden Horde - notquitethere
Post by: Pencil_Art on April 06, 2015, 12:26:02 am
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Dragoons coming Southerners. Hang in there.
Post by: SilverDragon on April 06, 2015, 12:36:30 am
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Thanks for the help, Pencil. My troops are nowhere near as advanced as anyone else.
Post by: Squeegy on April 06, 2015, 12:54:11 am
Also you're floating a shitton of resources and labor because you spent all that time making units instead of buildings. Swords vs. plowshares.
Post by: SilverDragon on April 06, 2015, 12:55:39 am
Post by: Squeegy on April 06, 2015, 12:57:14 am
Post by: Rolepgeek on April 06, 2015, 08:24:14 am
Meh. Unless buildings require you to have a specific population I'm blaming that. It literally wouldn't let me build a bunch of stuff.*facepalm*
Post by: hector13 on April 06, 2015, 08:50:45 am
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: SilverDragon on April 06, 2015, 08:51:21 am
Post by: Kashyyk on April 06, 2015, 09:35:56 am
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Rolepgeek on April 06, 2015, 11:06:44 pm
Look, I'm playing to have fun not rush units and buildings. And I have been expanding, as I said, and my population never changed.
It's not about 'rushing', it's about knowing how to play the game in the first place...and surviving long enough to get to the good bits, which it seems like you will be unlikely to do. We're not trying to be mean. But when you don't know how to play and don't seem to bother to learn when the tutorials and requirements for various things are right there to look at, every turn if you have to, it's hard not to get exasperated.
Anyway. My turn. Don't know what you think you're doing, NQT/Squeegy, but I can assure you all you're accomplishing is making sure I have an army and making sure you won't. Grrr. I'm fierce. Grrr.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: SilverDragon on April 06, 2015, 11:21:16 pm
Post by: notquitethere on April 07, 2015, 05:12:16 am
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Finally get to play a turn. Sorry for the absence. A lot has happened it appears!
Post by: Rolepgeek on April 07, 2015, 08:10:18 am
Well, I've mentioned it before that I learn by doing, not reading a giant big fat stack of text that says "You do this, then do that, but you can't unless you have this, except when you do that, and all this means you get to do this and this but you can't do either if you haven't done this" or whatever.It came with pictures, man. It's not even a huge stack of text; the description of each building tells you what's needed to build it, including population. Don't get defensive; just accept that you didn't look for it.
Post by: SilverDragon on April 07, 2015, 08:12:38 am
Post by: Squeegy on April 07, 2015, 01:53:26 pm
SilverDragon, you need to expand into tiles that give you the most Food to grow your population the fastest. It's a really basic mechanic we've been over several times. I warned you you needed to claim river tiles, I even suggested a course of action you could follow and tried to help you out when I auto'd you. Your population isn't changing because you're not claiming high-value Food tiles. That's literally all there is to it.
Post by: Squeegy on April 07, 2015, 03:04:03 pm
Spoiler: Turn 45 (click to show/hide)
Turn 46 (http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=gW2mTFAj)
Player interface (http://dl.dropbox.com/u/28942516/PlayerInterface.swf)
Admin Interface (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/28942516/AdminInterface.swf)
Westerners - Pencil_Art
Islanders - hector13
Manen - Kashyyk
Southerners - SilverDragon
Kharen States - Rolepgeek
Golden Horde - notquitethere
Post by: Pencil_Art on April 07, 2015, 03:23:36 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: notquitethere on April 07, 2015, 03:27:00 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Kashyyk on April 07, 2015, 04:15:40 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Squeegy on April 07, 2015, 04:58:02 pm
Conquered cities are reduced to pop 0 and given their own "destroyed" graphic, and you have to claim them to bring them back to pop 1, and then put your own population in to make the city functional again. This would eliminate "pop stealing" where taking other players' cities lets you hijack their invested population and even take it out of the city and put it elsewhere, which doesn't make a whole lot of sense and isn't present with villages. Conquering could also be done over multiple turns, with each conquer reducing the city's population by 1, so that larger cities take longer to conquer, which makes sense. Pop 0 cities could be conquered again to raze them completely. This would let people whose cities are under attack have a much larger window to prevent the city from being taken, which allows for more leeway in combat, and integrates razing seamlessly into the hard-coding.
Honestly, considering reverse-engineering the code and adding these improvements in myself, since Vanigo seems reluctant to either continue the project or release it open-source.
Post by: Rolepgeek on April 07, 2015, 07:01:39 pm
doesn't make a whole lot of sense and isn't present with villages.Sure it is. Pop of the tile goes down by one when you conquer it, whether city or village. Villages just only happen to have 1 pop. And cities having their pop moved about;, it's just slavery is all. Nothing big.
Oh, and thanks for:
Rolepgeek just assumes everyone who disagrees with him is defensive.
Real nice, Squeegy. Had nothing to do with disagreement and everything to do with the tone of the response, text or no.
Post by: hector13 on April 07, 2015, 07:54:31 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Edit: Would have to agree with RPG re moving population from conquered cities being analogous to slavery.
I would maybe prefer amending what you suggest (nerfing a conquered town to pop 1) to having a random number of population erosion to reflect dead civvies and refugees leaving, though I'm not sure how you feel about trying to get the latter part into the game.
Post by: lemon10 on April 07, 2015, 07:58:41 pm
Some things I think would make for more interesting gameplay:Yeah, there are a ton of things you could do to radically change the game with access to the source code, and quite a few interface improvements (eg. having a merge army button which allows you to merge two armies of any size with a single click).
Conquered cities are reduced to pop 0 and given their own "destroyed" graphic, and you have to claim them to bring them back to pop 1, and then put your own population in to make the city functional again. This would eliminate "pop stealing" where taking other players' cities lets you hijack their invested population and even take it out of the city and put it elsewhere, which doesn't make a whole lot of sense and isn't present with villages. Conquering could also be done over multiple turns, with each conquer reducing the city's population by 1, so that larger cities take longer to conquer, which makes sense. Pop 0 cities could be conquered again to raze them completely. This would let people whose cities are under attack have a much larger window to prevent the city from being taken, which allows for more leeway in combat, and integrates razing seamlessly into the hard-coding.
Honestly, considering reverse-engineering the code and adding these improvements in myself, since Vanigo seems reluctant to either continue the project or release it open-source.
That said, it is rather rude to reverse engineer someone's code when they explicitly say that they don't want to release it open source.
Post by: Rolepgeek on April 07, 2015, 08:06:29 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
I feel it's rather too punishing to the attacker, and to a point the defender, to reduce the pop by more than one.
Post by: Squeegy on April 08, 2015, 01:31:19 am
That said, it is rather rude to reverse engineer someone's code when they explicitly say that they don't want to release it open source.He didn't explicitly say that. As far as I know he hasn't said anything on the subject.
Edit: Would have to agree with RPG re moving population from conquered cities being analogous to slavery.The thing is that this "slavery" mechanic doesn't mesh with the rest of the game. If "pop of the tile goes down by one when you conquer it" is the rule, then why do pop 2 cities have no effect? There's no coherent design philosophy there, it wasn't meant to imply slavery, that's just how the game "works." In every other aspect of the game but this one, the only population you get is the population you earn through conversion of Food. It all points to the idea that if the design were made consistent, you would only be able to get pop through that, and shouldn't be able to take it from other players. After all, as NQT said, you can't raze your own villages. If you can't enslave your people and force them to move elsewhere, why can you make slaves out of the subjects you gain when you conquer a city? It does not make sense from a game design POV.
I would maybe prefer amending what you suggest (nerfing a conquered town to pop 1) to having a random number of population erosion to reflect dead civvies and refugees leaving, though I'm not sure how you feel about trying to get the latter part into the game.
Post by: SilverDragon on April 08, 2015, 01:45:19 am
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Squeegy on April 08, 2015, 02:09:27 am
Spoiler: Turn 46 (click to show/hide)
Turn 47 (http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=DuZ64uvW)
Player interface (http://dl.dropbox.com/u/28942516/PlayerInterface.swf)
Admin Interface (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/28942516/AdminInterface.swf)
Westerners - Pencil_Art
Islanders - hector13
Manen - Kashyyk
Southerners - SilverDragon
Kharen States - Rolepgeek
Golden Horde - notquitethere
Post by: Kashyyk on April 08, 2015, 03:53:11 am
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: notquitethere on April 08, 2015, 05:45:50 am
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: hector13 on April 08, 2015, 02:49:01 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
The thing is that this "slavery" mechanic doesn't mesh with the rest of the game. If "pop of the tile goes down by one when you conquer it" is the rule, then why do pop 2 cities have no effect? There's no coherent design philosophy there, it wasn't meant to imply slavery, that's just how the game "works." In every other aspect of the game but this one, the only population you get is the population you earn through conversion of Food. It all points to the idea that if the design were made consistent, you would only be able to get pop through that, and shouldn't be able to take it from other players. After all, as NQT said, you can't raze your own villages. If you can't enslave your people and force them to move elsewhere, why can you make slaves out of the subjects you gain when you conquer a city? It does not make sense from a game design POV.
I had a bit of a spiel on my thoughts which got lost after internet nonsense :(
Summary: You can remove population from your towns, and it says in the orders window that you are using -1 pop (though I don't know if you get that the next turn, don't want to experiment 50 turns in :P) but I would consider that emigration rather than slavery (semantic arguments, yay!)
Uh... I said something about conquered towns... something along the lines of pop of conquered towns being returned to the previous owner (Player A conqueres town size 5 of Player B. A gets town size 1 next turn, B gets 4 extra pop) to reflect refugees, or the rest of the population just being massacred by invading armies, if you're not happy with the slavery thing. I think it makes sense, but I like to rationalise things endlessly.
Post by: notquitethere on April 08, 2015, 03:11:04 pm
Post by: Kashyyk on April 08, 2015, 03:46:39 pm
You can remove population from your towns, and it says in the orders window that you are using -1 pop (though I don't know if you get that the next turn, don't want to experiment 50 turns in :P) but I would consider that emigration rather than slavery (semantic arguments, yay!)You can use it on the same turn you remove the population, but like expansion and and city increases, this doesn't affect the free poop number you see in the players window until next turn.
Regarding the theft of other players' pop with conquering, I would've liked it if villages didn't get razed on conquering, but that might have made things a bit unbalanced. Would have changed gameplay a load if nothing else.
Post by: Squeegy on April 08, 2015, 04:12:44 pm
I'd prefer the system I outlined, because I don't think the pop should be returned to them either (conquering is the destroying of pop), and I like that it will drag out the conquest of cities somewhat.Spoiler (click to show/hide)The thing is that this "slavery" mechanic doesn't mesh with the rest of the game. If "pop of the tile goes down by one when you conquer it" is the rule, then why do pop 2 cities have no effect? There's no coherent design philosophy there, it wasn't meant to imply slavery, that's just how the game "works." In every other aspect of the game but this one, the only population you get is the population you earn through conversion of Food. It all points to the idea that if the design were made consistent, you would only be able to get pop through that, and shouldn't be able to take it from other players. After all, as NQT said, you can't raze your own villages. If you can't enslave your people and force them to move elsewhere, why can you make slaves out of the subjects you gain when you conquer a city? It does not make sense from a game design POV.
I had a bit of a spiel on my thoughts which got lost after internet nonsense :(
Summary: You can remove population from your towns, and it says in the orders window that you are using -1 pop (though I don't know if you get that the next turn, don't want to experiment 50 turns in :P) but I would consider that emigration rather than slavery (semantic arguments, yay!)
Uh... I said something about conquered towns... something along the lines of pop of conquered towns being returned to the previous owner (Player A conqueres town size 5 of Player B. A gets town size 1 next turn, B gets 4 extra pop) to reflect refugees, or the rest of the population just being massacred by invading armies, if you're not happy with the slavery thing. I think it makes sense, but I like to rationalise things endlessly.
Post by: Pencil_Art on April 08, 2015, 05:08:52 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Rolepgeek on April 08, 2015, 11:15:49 pm
The thing is that this "slavery" mechanic doesn't mesh with the rest of the game. If "pop of the tile goes down by one when you conquer it" is the rule, then why do pop 2 cities have no effect? There's no coherent design philosophy there, it wasn't meant to imply slavery, that's just how the game "works." In every other aspect of the game but this one, the only population you get is the population you earn through conversion of Food. It all points to the idea that if the design were made consistent, you would only be able to get pop through that, and shouldn't be able to take it from other players. After all, as NQT said, you can't raze your own villages. If you can't enslave your people and force them to move elsewhere, why can you make slaves out of the subjects you gain when you conquer a city? It does not make sense from a game design POV.Because of design limitations? Because it means that taking a pop 2 city isn't purely there to deny it to the enemy, but can actually help you in more significant ways by having a city? Because pop 1 cities don't exist? You point out 'flaws' in Vanigo's game based on your opinion, and some of us disagree. But you want to do it anyway, and that's fine, but it's rude to basically say 'he did it wrong', which is what it seems like you're doing when you put it in the way you do; "if the design were made consistent" and "There's no coherent design philosopy here". There's things I've wanted to add to the game too, typically concerning units and buffs(for example garrison or militia units, or walls functioning differently), but the game works fine as it is. There's really no need to make changes like that.
Also, as for razing your own villages, and enslaving your own people; I believe the assumption is made that you are not in fact a tyrannical despot. Additionally, you can in fact do just that in exactly the same way you can the enemy(moving pop among cities, that is), unless you mean to Villages, in which case you can't do that to the enemy either. Just because the idea of slavery isn't fully detailed and implemented in all applicable ways doesn't mean it's not been done. Hell, you implemented Blood Mines and Slave Market, and I think those are pretty clever. Doesn't mean you need to edit the source code. And while he hasn't explicitly stated it, he has said things in response to questions about possible changes like 'that would require access to the source code' and later added external image support for the source code, so he obviously both still has it and is unwilling to share it. He doesn't want it released.
I will add that conquering is, really, quite the opposite of destroying a population, in terms of what was done in reality. Sure, sometimes you put everyone to the sword, but more often they surrendered once you killed the defenders. The rabblerousers might need to be put down and some might have fled in the meantime(which is why most people drain their cities of pop if it looks like they're about to be taken), but it's often about, you know, one king replacing another. For many, they won't care all that much. If you force 'em out of the city, or steal the gold and goods in it to supply your own populace so it can grow, that's it's own thing. As well, I personally don't like the idea of city conquests taking even longer than they already do; just look at The Dark Ages. Well Defended cities need a veritable Siege, over many turns, in order to get to even get a chance.
Look for answers, not problems, is what I say, in this case.
One change I would like, though, is for improvements to get razed on conquering a tile. Makes it more dangerous to allow your stuff to get razed, fits in better with the slash and burn idea of it. Makes not just taking but holding valuable tiles more important.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Also, SilverDragon, I would suggest moving the Carvers of History down towards the Pop 4 city they've built before they start pumping out units...
Post by: notquitethere on April 08, 2015, 11:19:54 pm
Post by: Squeegy on April 09, 2015, 02:58:23 am
Design limitations nothing. It's as simple as adding another button. "Design limitations" is not an excuse for bad design.The thing is that this "slavery" mechanic doesn't mesh with the rest of the game. If "pop of the tile goes down by one when you conquer it" is the rule, then why do pop 2 cities have no effect? There's no coherent design philosophy there, it wasn't meant to imply slavery, that's just how the game "works." In every other aspect of the game but this one, the only population you get is the population you earn through conversion of Food. It all points to the idea that if the design were made consistent, you would only be able to get pop through that, and shouldn't be able to take it from other players. After all, as NQT said, you can't raze your own villages. If you can't enslave your people and force them to move elsewhere, why can you make slaves out of the subjects you gain when you conquer a city? It does not make sense from a game design POV.Because of design limitations?
Because it means that taking a pop 2 city isn't purely there to deny it to the enemy, but can actually help you in more significant ways by having a city?You can still take the city in my version too; you bring it down to pop 0, you claim it (bringing it back to pop 1), and then you rebuild it. You have the option of razing it, it's not compulsory.
Because pop 1 cities don't exist?Because a pop 1 city is a village, I'm well aware. That's a totally meaningless excuse, because they could very easily be added to the game. They would function exactly the same as villages (that is to say, you wouldn't get any of the benefits of having a city there until you brought them back up to pop 2), and you wouldn't be able to remove pop to bring them down to 1, it would be a state that exists purely for the purposes of conquering cities and it would maintain the consistency of design in the game.
You point out 'flaws' in Vanigo's game based on your opinion, and some of us disagree. But you want to do it anyway, and that's fine, but it's rude to basically say 'he did it wrong', which is what it seems like you're doing when you put it in the way you do; "if the design were made consistent" and "There's no coherent design philosopy here". There's things I've wanted to add to the game too, typically concerning units and buffs(for example garrison or militia units, or walls functioning differently), but the game works fine as it is. There's really no need to make changes like that.With all due respect, I am not talking out of my ass here. I am a programmer. I design games. I've done it, I'm trained in it, it's what I do. When I talk about consistent design philosophy, I'm talking in terms that I apply to the games I create as well as the games I play and criticize. I am looking at the game from the perspective of how I would design it, how I would balance it, etc. This is the way that people in my field approach this. And I mean it when I say that something can be done because I know how it's done and I know the limitations. If Vanigo released the source code, I would do it. I'm not saying he's a bad game designer, far from it -- he made a very solid and enjoyable game, and I admire his work. If I didn't like what he'd done I wouldn't be considering changing it. However, in my opinion it has flaws and I am not beholden to ignore them out of respect. And no one would force you to play the game with the modifications that I make.
Also, as for razing your own villages, and enslaving your own people; I believe the assumption is made that you are not in fact a tyrannical despot. Additionally, you can in fact do just that in exactly the same way you can the enemy(moving pop among cities, that is), unless you mean to Villages, in which case you can't do that to the enemy either. Just because the idea of slavery isn't fully detailed and implemented in all applicable ways doesn't mean it's not been done. Hell, you implemented Blood Mines and Slave Market, and I think those are pretty clever. Doesn't mean you need to edit the source code. And while he hasn't explicitly stated it, he has said things in response to questions about possible changes like 'that would require access to the source code' and later added external image support for the source code, so he obviously both still has it and is unwilling to share it. He doesn't want it released.Actually, lemon10 added the Blood Mines; I added the Slave Market both because of the precedence he set and because I felt that there should be a labor counterpart to the iron source he created.
I will add that conquering is, really, quite the opposite of destroying a population, in terms of what was done in reality. Sure, sometimes you put everyone to the sword, but more often they surrendered once you killed the defenders. The rabblerousers might need to be put down and some might have fled in the meantime(which is why most people drain their cities of pop if it looks like they're about to be taken), but it's often about, you know, one king replacing another. For many, they won't care all that much. If you force 'em out of the city, or steal the gold and goods in it to supply your own populace so it can grow, that's it's own thing. As well, I personally don't like the idea of city conquests taking even longer than they already do; just look at The Dark Ages. Well Defended cities need a veritable Siege, over many turns, in order to get to even get a chance.
Any assumptions to make are totally meaningless, as are any comparisons to real life. This is a game, games have design and balance and I think that they can be tweaked to make a better, fairer, and more consistent experience. And FYI, I have looked at The Dark Age; I looked at when I sent my troops into your territory while you were occupied with taking my northern cities and captured your undefended Metropolis before you could even react. Right now sieges in VEG are all about where your troops are, and, if they're out of position, whether or not you can move them into place before the enemy arrives. Beyond that, it all comes down to whether they come knocking with more than you're capable of defeating. In fact, I sort of dislike how fights in VEG are done to the utter annihilation of either side (if you want to appeal to realism, that's not particularly realistic either, but I dislike it from a gameplay standpoint). It's somewhat alleviated by the fact that you have to split your army up to handle threats and eventualities from all around, but I think that if your armies retreated from fights they were losing it would encourage people to go at each other more because there wouldn't be so much on the line, you wouldn't be losing your whole army.
Of course, that's rubbing up against some real design limitations and getting into Hearts of Iron territory that is somewhat inappropriate for a light strategy game like this, but it doesn't hurt to think about it. For that matter, none of this hurts to think about, especially since if Vanigo doesn't want his game modified then nothing will come of it.
Look for answers, not problems, is what I say, in this case.I didn't look for problems, I just found them because they stick out. They're problematic. Now I'm looking for answers to those problems.
One change I would like, though, is for improvements to get razed on conquering a tile. Makes it more dangerous to allow your stuff to get razed, fits in better with the slash and burn idea of it. Makes not just taking but holding valuable tiles more important.
I think that holding valuable tiles is sufficiently important now, there just isn't much back-and-forth over them because it's more about attacking cities and destroying armies than undermining your opponents' resources (most of the time, anyway, maybe not as much in an asymmetric war like the one right now between the Golden Horde and you, or the Danes and Ireland).
None of this is relevant to the game that we're playing right now, none of these changes have any chance of affecting Fertile Lands even if I could act upon them. I'm just floating ideas, getting people's thoughts on this stuff.
Post by: SilverDragon on April 10, 2015, 01:01:03 am
Post by: Squeegy on April 10, 2015, 04:56:47 am
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Squeegy on April 10, 2015, 05:06:45 am
Spoiler: Turn 47 (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Battle Log (click to show/hide)
Turn 48 (http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=XgxDjB7A)
Player interface (http://dl.dropbox.com/u/28942516/PlayerInterface.swf)
Admin Interface (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/28942516/AdminInterface.swf)
Westerners - Pencil_Art
Islanders - hector13
Manen - Kashyyk
Southerners - SilverDragon
Kharen States - Rolepgeek
Golden Horde - notquitethere
Post by: notquitethere on April 10, 2015, 05:43:03 am
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Squeegy on April 10, 2015, 05:55:03 am
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: hector13 on April 10, 2015, 09:02:33 am
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Pencil_Art on April 10, 2015, 04:33:13 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Kashyyk on April 10, 2015, 05:02:05 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Rolepgeek on April 11, 2015, 12:01:31 am
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Squeegy on April 11, 2015, 04:39:40 am
Spoiler: Turn 48 (click to show/hide)
Turn 49 (http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=WfqfB9eH)
Player interface (http://dl.dropbox.com/u/28942516/PlayerInterface.swf)
Admin Interface (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/28942516/AdminInterface.swf)
Westerners - Pencil_Art
Islanders - hector13
Manen - Kashyyk
Southerners - SilverDragon
Kharen States - Rolepgeek
Golden Horde - notquitethere
Post by: SilverDragon on April 11, 2015, 05:25:56 am
Post by: Squeegy on April 11, 2015, 05:28:25 am
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Kashyyk on April 11, 2015, 08:14:20 am
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: hector13 on April 11, 2015, 08:23:12 am
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: notquitethere on April 11, 2015, 09:33:13 am
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Rolepgeek on April 11, 2015, 11:41:33 am
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Squeegy on April 11, 2015, 06:43:32 pm
Post by: Pencil_Art on April 12, 2015, 12:22:04 am
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Squeegy on April 12, 2015, 01:08:23 am
Spoiler: Turn 49 (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Battle Log (click to show/hide)
Turn 50 (http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=hcYp2a41)
Player interface (http://dl.dropbox.com/u/28942516/PlayerInterface.swf)
Admin Interface (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/28942516/AdminInterface.swf)
Westerners - Pencil_Art
Islanders - hector13
Manen - Kashyyk
Southerners - SilverDragon
Kharen States - Rolepgeek
Golden Horde - notquitethere
Post by: Rolepgeek on April 12, 2015, 01:14:27 am
Every 20 turns a larger part of the Horde will enter the map from the desert pass, until the entire Golden Horde is here, at which point they can be wiped out like any other civ.
So is it every 10 turns now, then, instead?
Post by: Squeegy on April 12, 2015, 01:28:32 am
Post by: Rolepgeek on April 12, 2015, 01:35:13 am
Which would have been interesting, but a breather(and thus the possibility for inter-kingdom strife to develop just enough to keep us from being able to put up a unified defense against the inevitably more powerful Horde) is certainly nice.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Kashyyk on April 12, 2015, 08:15:46 am
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: hector13 on April 12, 2015, 09:58:04 am
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Pencil_Art on April 12, 2015, 03:29:03 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Squeegy on April 12, 2015, 03:53:16 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: notquitethere on April 13, 2015, 10:34:00 am
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Squeegy on April 13, 2015, 11:06:24 pm
Spoiler: Turn 50 (click to show/hide)
Turn 51 (http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=ZhWAtgZj)
Player interface (http://dl.dropbox.com/u/28942516/PlayerInterface.swf)
Admin Interface (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/28942516/AdminInterface.swf)
Westerners - Pencil_Art
Islanders - hector13
Manen - Kashyyk
Southerners - SilverDragon
Kharen States - Rolepgeek
Golden Horde - notquitethere
Post by: Rolepgeek on April 13, 2015, 11:57:20 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
There are a great many more innocents left to kill, if that is what you wish to call them.
Let them hide in the hills and woods if they wish, or the marshes, but leave no farm or hunting lodge for the vermin to breed.
Post by: Pencil_Art on April 14, 2015, 03:25:11 am
Post by: Kashyyk on April 14, 2015, 07:32:01 am
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: notquitethere on April 14, 2015, 06:01:35 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Squeegy on April 19, 2015, 02:55:36 am
Post by: Pencil_Art on April 19, 2015, 08:14:32 am
Currently experiencing Internet problems. Can you please auto me? Thanks in advance.
Post by: Squeegy on April 21, 2015, 09:52:34 pm
Spoiler: Southerners (click to show/hide)
Still? Ok, need hector13 then.
Post by: Pencil_Art on April 30, 2015, 09:28:58 am
Post by: Squeegy on April 30, 2015, 03:33:29 pm
Post by: Rolepgeek on April 30, 2015, 07:24:57 pm
Post by: Pencil_Art on May 01, 2015, 04:25:36 am
Post by: SilverDragon on May 01, 2015, 07:43:33 am
Post by: Pencil_Art on May 11, 2015, 12:40:39 am
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Squeegy on May 11, 2015, 06:19:20 pm
Didn't wait twenty days for me to post! :PLike I said then, it was the early part of the game. This isn't. There's actual important decisions to be made. And also it was just you I was autoing.
So, it looks like hector hasn't been on for a whole month. He's probably MIA at this point. I can auto him until we find a replacement if it's good with you guys.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Squeegy on May 11, 2015, 09:02:43 pm
Spoiler: Turn 51 (click to show/hide)
Turn 52 (http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=JXacWCz4)
Player interface (http://dl.dropbox.com/u/28942516/PlayerInterface.swf)
Admin Interface (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/28942516/AdminInterface.swf)
Westerners - Pencil_Art
Islanders - ?
Manen - Kashyyk
Southerners - ?
Kharen States - Rolepgeek
Golden Horde - notquitethere
Post by: Rolepgeek on May 11, 2015, 10:50:39 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Pencil_Art on May 12, 2015, 12:34:00 am
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Kashyyk on May 12, 2015, 10:39:45 am
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: notquitethere on May 13, 2015, 11:40:34 am
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Squeegy on May 14, 2015, 07:37:29 am
Spoiler: Islanders (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Southerners (click to show/hide)
Post by: Squeegy on May 14, 2015, 07:42:24 am
Spoiler: Turn 52 (click to show/hide)
Turn 53 (http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=WvCn7egd)
Player interface (http://dl.dropbox.com/u/28942516/PlayerInterface.swf)
Admin Interface (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/28942516/AdminInterface.swf)
Westerners - Pencil_Art
Islanders - ?
Manen - Kashyyk
Southerners - ?
Kharen States - Rolepgeek
Golden Horde - notquitethere
Post by: notquitethere on May 14, 2015, 04:34:41 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Squeegy on May 18, 2015, 12:10:29 pm
Post by: Kashyyk on May 18, 2015, 01:18:06 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Rolepgeek on May 18, 2015, 09:50:53 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Pencil_Art on May 18, 2015, 11:57:25 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Squeegy on May 19, 2015, 03:18:58 pm
Spoiler: Islanders (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Southerners (click to show/hide)
Post by: Squeegy on May 19, 2015, 03:28:43 pm
Spoiler: Turn 53 (click to show/hide)
Turn 54 (http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=9adCnZwz)
Player interface (http://dl.dropbox.com/u/28942516/PlayerInterface.swf)
Admin Interface (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/28942516/AdminInterface.swf)
Westerners - Pencil_Art
Islanders - ?
Manen - Kashyyk
Southerners - ?
Kharen States - Rolepgeek
Golden Horde - notquitethere
Post by: notquitethere on May 19, 2015, 05:00:03 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Kashyyk on May 19, 2015, 05:29:38 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Rolepgeek on May 19, 2015, 07:02:12 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Pencil_Art on May 20, 2015, 12:46:46 am
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Squeegy on May 20, 2015, 01:15:09 am
Spoiler: Islanders (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Southerners (click to show/hide)
Post by: Squeegy on May 20, 2015, 01:19:55 am
Spoiler: Turn 54 (click to show/hide)
Turn 55 (http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=xgAZ8ydR)
Player interface (http://dl.dropbox.com/u/28942516/PlayerInterface.swf)
Admin Interface (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/28942516/AdminInterface.swf)
Westerners - Pencil_Art
Islanders - ?
Manen - Kashyyk
Southerners - ?
Kharen States - Rolepgeek
Golden Horde - notquitethere
Post by: notquitethere on May 20, 2015, 10:07:42 am
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Rolepgeek on May 20, 2015, 05:24:44 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Hey Pencil_Art. Whatcha, whatcha doin' there buddy? You've got an awful lot of troops that weren't originally one army grouping up next to my ally's town. Why you doin' that? I sure hope I don't have to bring over a Lochagos to make sure everything stays nice and calm and peaceful.
So, uh, Southerners. My horses are gettin' real tired walking around these plains, tryin' to help clear the Southerners for ya. Might be a little easier for us to finish them off and help make sure the Westerners play nice if ya were to build some roads fer us. We'd even be able to trade that way. Whatcha say?