0) Assume goodwill and sanity on all sides, and don't purposefully misunderstand others.
People need to handle this like duck typing (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duck_typing). When interacting with other people, you don't need to make sure that they're of type Boy or type Girl or whatever. It doesn't matter. Just make sure they have implementations of the methods you expect to call, and that these work in the way that your own behavior expects. For example, unless you intend to call thisGuy.fuck(me), you probably don't care whether it relies on Genitalia.penis or Genitalia.vagina, or indeed any other module. Moreover, construct your error handlers in a reasonable fashion - instead of throwing up a giant red warning and crashing the program (that is, your relationship with somebody), try to handle things a bit more gracefully. And keep in mind that you're the one throwing the error - you're not a standards organization, so you just kind of have to live with how everybody else does their thing.
Now, you can certainly implement your own methods and have them check particular attributes. If you want your makeFriends() method to ensure your target has no trans variable set to True, fine, although it's generally poor design and I'll call you kind of an asshole. But that's your own particular implementation, and not the way the entire system ought to work.
I make this post fully aware of the risk that the thread will be locked. I choose to be optimistic.
Hey, no quoting! This instance wasn't really bad, but finem respice and all that...
Maybe I should've been clearer: Discussion is fine and encouraged - but no discussion that has no merit content-wise. It says 'outright discussion' in the OP for a reason - no posts that have no independent value. 'No outright discussion' goes in the same direction as 'No quoting' - it's meant to keep the temperature low.
I think if the only way to prevent a thread lock is to make rules against discussions, it's probably a sign that the topic isn't going to work.This.
You're so vain, you probably think this post is about youErm...
You're so vain, I'll bet you think this post is about you
Don't you? don't you?
Leaving aside 30 year old song lyrics, I wasn't talking about any religious thread you may or may not have run.
First of all, how do you even go about defining "biologically male" or "biologically female" besides what the doctor says when you're born?XX, and XY. Anything else is an anomaly, a special case.
Because if not, your little sorting system is completely arbitrary.
Second off, gender identity is not a binary. It's not a spectrum, either. You can't even map it on a chart. It's nebulous.
Is it chromosomes? Some people who are assigned male at birth (AMAB) have XX chromosomes. Some people who are AFAB have XY chromosomes. If you really want to sort it that way, then what about people who are XXX? Or XYY?That one is actually really easy to answer, if you wanted to make the case for that side - at least one Y, or more specifically the presence of a specific sequence that is normally on the Y (but sometimes deleted - then you get AFAB XYs - or moved - AMAB XXs) means male, because of how hormones are genetically determined.
I have three conditions of which one needs to be fulfilled for biological genderThat's a bit of a self-serving definition then, since you've literally excluded any possible mean of affecting gender outside of literal magic.
1) You have to have male or female genes: You cannot get your genes changed in real life
2) You must have the male or female reproductive organs: You cannot get these through surgery in real life
3) You must have had those organs at one point in the case of losing them.
That is pretty much it. There is no way to affect Biological gender with our current technology. It is immutable.
Saying "You're either male or female, get over it." is like telling a guy who just got shot "Quit crying, you big baby! I bet it doesn't hurt that much."
TL;DR: Gender is real, it has real effects on people's lives. If you think it doesn't, there's a good chance you're one of the lucky minority who hasn't received any shit because of gender, which is fine, until the moment you presume that's been everyone's experience.I want to reiterate this. This thread is seriously the equivalent of a bunch of white people trying to talk about black oppression. (Which I'm pretty sure also happened on this very forum.) This thread just needs to stop. You can't talk about gender issues like you know everything about them if you've never experienced them. I would be open to a thread where questions can be asked of trans people, but it's clear that pretty much everyone in this thread is talking out their ass.
You can't talk about gender issues like you know everything about them if you've never experienced them. I would be open to a thread where questions can be asked of trans people, but it's clear that pretty much everyone in this thread is talking out their ass.First - tone down the aggression, not conducive to... anything, really.
Like you (talking to a hypothetical crowd of people, not necessarily even forumites here) understand that half the population fully and realistically expects to get payed 3/4ths of what the other half gets paid for the same jobs, soley because of gender? That people with gender dysphoria undergo intense unhappiness for potentially their entire lives, because they identify as a different gender than the one that biology/society gave them at birth? To say nothing of the countless gay, trans, or whatever people who get murdered every year because of who they are. Or hell, the men who get raped, or experience any form of intense emotional distress, and then have to hide it around others.
I'm pulling the most dramatic examples of course. But the point is, those people, they aren't arguing that gender doesn't exist, or that no one cares about it any more. Because they feel it, every day of their lives, as a fact of their existence.
But the point is, those people, they aren't arguing that gender doesn't exist,
Let me guess. Everyone is talking out of their ass... except for you? ???Saying "You're either male or female, get over it." is like telling a guy who just got shot "Quit crying, you big baby! I bet it doesn't hurt that much."TL;DR: Gender is real, it has real effects on people's lives. If you think it doesn't, there's a good chance you're one of the lucky minority who hasn't received any shit because of gender, which is fine, until the moment you presume that's been everyone's experience.I want to reiterate this. This thread is seriously the equivalent of a bunch of white people trying to talk about black oppression. (Which I'm pretty sure also happened on this very forum.) This thread just needs to stop. You can't talk about gender issues like you know everything about them if you've never experienced them. I would be open to a thread where questions can be asked of trans people, but it's clear that pretty much everyone in this thread is talking out their ass.
-snip-I'm going to be blunt, you have no idea what I'm trying to say. So instead of responding to you, I'll reiterate my post WITHOUT examples and maybe you can respond to what I said instead of trying to say my specific examples aren't real (which they are BTW).
Y'can talk about tone and rudeness and everything, and I encourage doing so, but you'd be better served in your quest to achieve productivity by actually addressing the claims she's making, and doing so in the manner you'd like the thread to proceed. Announcing a refusal to engage unless your standards for discourse are met is at once oxymoronic (your announcement is a form of engagement) and hypocritical (it fails to live up to your own standards, because it fails to contribute anything). With that in mind, I'd like to actually talk about the thrust of the argument.Er, my "behave yourself" comment was specifically directed at the post in which the sole points raised were "you are like whites talking about blacks" and "you are all speaking out of your asses."
See, she's got a damn fine point - there's a rash of people, whenever social justice sorts of things get brought up, who like to exclaim that they're not part of the problem because they don't care. This is a problem, because denying that a problem is relevant to you doesn't actually solve the problem. So, let me be clear about one thing - I mentioned duck typing earlier, which boils down to giving no fucks about how somebody is defined as long as they do the things you need them to do. I don't mean by this, "Oh, gender doesn't really matter." What I mean is, people need to accept that there's no Right Way To Do Things. Arbitrary definitions of gender should be allowed, including Null.
None of us are standards agencies. None of us have authority over anybody else. None of us are in a position to dictate definitions. Not me, not AlleeCat, and certainly not Th4DwArfY1. That means you don't get to tell people what does or does not matter. Gender doesn't matter to me. I'm a straight white cis-gendered well-educated American male, to list a whole bunch of labels I don't particularly care about, but have to keep in mind because a lot of people like to be assholes to people who don't have them. There are two boxes I don't check off on the Life Experience Lottery, and that's Christian and Exorbitantly Wealthy. So you can see, I'm not exactly qualified to say what matters to people who aren't that obnoxiously lucky.
Remember when McDonald's gave financial advice (http://www.forbes.com/sites/laurashin/2013/07/18/why-mcdonalds-employee-budget-has-everyone-up-in-arms/) to its employees? If I'm trying to set up a Grand Unified Theory of gender politics, I'm doing the same thing. The company was rightly called crazy and borderline evil, for what, trying to help people? Yeah! Because that's what happens when you behave as though you've got answers to problems you've never so much as looked at. You tend to come off as a callous idiot.
But here's the thing we fast food giants tend to forget whenever we get criticized for this sort of nonsense - there's actually a shitton of things we can do to help, and plenty we can say to contribute. Mostly, they don't involve thinking of brilliant solutions off in our ivory towers. Mostly, they don't involve going out on righteous crusades. No, mostly, they involve listening. Mostly, they involve quiet adjustments. Mostly, they involve introspection and honesty. Mostly, they involve accepting that we make mistakes and need to fix them.
Mostly, they involve treating people like people.
-snip-I'm going to be blunt, you have no idea what I'm trying to say. So instead of responding to you, I'll reiterate my post WITHOUT examples and maybe you can respond to what I said instead of trying to say my specific examples aren't real (which they are BTW).
This is the simplest way I know to explain it: if a person says something to the effect of "poor people just need to work harder", you don't need to ask if they've ever been poor. You know they haven't, because they're so off base about how poverty works, that the chance they've ever actually experienced it is essentially null. Maybe they're the one self-hating outlier, but more likely they just have no idea what they're talking about.
That's what it sounds like when people say "gender doesn't really matter any more."
Please feel free to quote me.
Here's what I don't understand. Hello everyone, I'm non-binary. To some of you, I don't exist. I am not sure exactly what you think I am instead--a very masculine woman? Someone in denial about my inner drive for passive nurturance or whatever other gender-essentialist thing is expected?
Okay. Who isn't talking out of their proverbial donkey?Depends on what you consider their proverbial donkey. I was talking about my own experiences.
Donkey being a language joke in that ass != arse.I know what it meant, I was just wondering how you defined it lolz.
AlleeCat accused most of us of talking out of our arses/asses. I want to know who they think is actually being reasonable.
Ask me whatever the hell you like, provided you've got an open mind to the answer. I'd really just like to be seen, and heard.
I think Vector is qualified to speak about gender, having experience problems with gender identity themselves, to give an example.I see. And so nobody else is allowed to give their own personal opinion unless they have some form of difference from the mainstream?
Will everyone kindly stop misreading what AlleeCat is saying. This is fucking embarrassing to watch.I know what the essence of what she's saying is, I'm pushing her because it isn't a dialog if the people who aren't the minority can't talk about thier views.
Or, more to the point, it doesn't apply to you or anyone who agrees with you fully.Yes, because when I say almost everyone, I just mean everyone. Good job with that.Quote from: Th4DwArfY1 ūlink=topic=149065.msg6089840#msg6089840 date=1425934936
Will everyone kindly stop misreading what AlleeCat is saying. This is fucking embarrassing to watch.It might help if you explained it to the peasants.
This hasn't been a dialog. This has been a bunch of people saying what their opinion on what genders are. There's been a lot of people trying to erase the existence of anyone who isn't the majority, and some have been trying to present their own views as science. AlleeCat, as one in the minority, is really frustrated that there are so many voices so quick to say that she shouldn't exist, that she doesn't exist. I don't really blame her. And then when she voices her opinion, she's given a tone argument for her troubles, and people push at her to make her feel uncomfortable for being angry about the fact that her whole life is being relegated to the garbage heap in so many people's minds.Will everyone kindly stop misreading what AlleeCat is saying. This is fucking embarrassing to watch.I know what the essence of what she's saying is, I'm pushing her because it isn't a dialog if the people who aren't the minority can't talk about thier views.
Will everyone kindly stop misreading what AlleeCat is saying. This is fucking embarrassing to watch.Let me see what it is that has caused the issue then. I haven't, actually.
I want to reiterate this. This thread is seriously the equivalent of a bunch of white people trying to talk about black oppression. (Which I'm pretty sure also happened on this very forum.) This thread just needs to stop. You can't talk about gender issues like you know everything about them if you've never experienced them. I would be open to a thread where questions can be asked of trans people, but it's clear that pretty much everyone in this thread is talking out their ass.I can see the issue here. It does seem an awful lot like you are trying to imply that certain other people's opinion doesn't matter, or rather that they lack the grounds on which to speak. Now, speaking for most people (and please, correct me if you don't agree), people don't like when someone makes that implication, and they've made several arguments against it.
I'm pushing her because it isn't a dialog if the people who aren't the minority can't talk about thier views.This seems to me a good argument.
This hasn't been a dialog. This has been a bunch of people saying what their opinion on what genders are. There's been a lot of people trying to erase the existence of anyone who isn't the majority, and some have been trying to present their own views as science. AlleeCat, as one in the minority, is really frustrated that there are so many voices so quick to say that she shouldn't exist, that she doesn't exist. I don't really blame her. And then when she voices her opinion, she's given a tone argument for her troubles, and people push at her to make her feel uncomfortable for being angry about the fact that her whole life is being relegated to the garbage heap in so many people's minds.Also a good argument. One that is not irreconcilable with the previous argument.
Postin' to watch thread
Yeah, that's a pretty dishonest presentation of the situation. It's almost as though you think people are complaining about not getting special privileges.This.
The thing is Urist is that we aren't talking about Gender right now.That's certainly not what I was talking about, but it is what you were talking about.
We are talking about whether Sex change operations do change your sex and if we should count is as doing so.
At least I think so. That was at least what I was talking about.
I can't speak for anyone else though. Did I completely misunderstand the conversation?
exceptions that prove the ruleThat is so incredibly stupid I can't even
I don't think we should ignore those distinctions because they are difficult to accurately define and understand.
Humans are often cruel. They rarely need good reason to express their cruelty.Firstly on this point.
I think that the world would be better off if no one cared about what gender you were and that people weren't so prone to being assholes in general.I agree mostly.
Any identity is becoming opressive once you're bound to it, and forced to act according to it. Actually I think the problem largely lie with how our brain process identity.Show of hands: Who here has read Invisible Man?
Maybe we ought to focus less on having objective, universal standards in a universe that objectively defies standardization.But let's say I don't follow some groups subjective standards. Now, they criticize me for some action (or non-action), but I feel like I'm in the right so I argue back (and let's say others who think similarly back me up). And of course, the subjectivity of standards for appropriate arguing inevitably leads to what might subjectively be termed a shit-storm. You know where that gets us? Right where we are now. That Utopia is now. Now, you might say that that subjectivity comes alongside a sort of acceptance of other's viewpoints. But what if I, subjectively, think that's wrong and judge as I please (as I am doing right now)? And I might argue that you have no right, by your own standards, to condemn me.
Do you object to the notion of protected classes?Would you mind elaborating to me a little on protected classes? I feel I may have missed the part where we covered it.
Actually I think the problem largely lie with how our brain process identity.Clearly then the only solution is to research into how to manipulate our brains. Clearly.
No quoting other forumites. Period.
I don't know, is this an interesting topic to discuss regarding gender?It is.
It says 'no outright discussion' in the OP. I really don't know why people keep forgetting that middle word.
I'll point to the ass print analogy above: There's no way to make the 'no outright discussion' rule rigorous in any sense of the word. I firmly believe however that we can and will find a modus operandi of discussing while abiding by the spirit of that rule.
Maybe an example would help? Pp 5-7 are a violation, while most of what came afterwards was pretty awesome (and not at all not a discussion, by the way).
I would like clarification on which page 5-7 we're talking about, because there's really not anything that comes after that from my perspective. Unless you think this current discussion is awesome.Reply #60 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=149065.msg6089423#msg6089423) - Reply #104 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=149065.msg6090311#msg6090311) presumably.
Okay, so I have a question.Stop asking stupid questions and get back in the kitchen! I need a fukken sammich!
Why are gender roles treated as a bad thing?
Okay, so I have a question.This. Its not like gender roles are exclusively a human social construct, but actualy a rather prevalent phenoma among mammals, too.
Why are gender roles treated as a bad thing?
Okay, so I have a question.
Why are gender roles treated as a bad thing?
Okay, so I have a question.Stop asking stupid questions and get back in the kitchen! I need a fukken sammich!
Why are gender roles treated as a bad thing?
EDIT: That's why. :)
Women dont get paid equally as a man in the same job position and thats not right. One should only be penalised pay if they are doing terrible at the job.Not exactly accurate if we are talking USA (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/christina-hoff-sommers/wage-gap_b_2073804.html). The gist of this a numerous other articles out there is that there a total pay gap (all money from both sides while not accouting at all of location, employer, or education) and not a wage gap. This means that their is either a disparity in who has the jobs with higher base pay or women work less hours on average (http://www.statcrunch.com/5.0/viewreport.php?reportid=7996) (note how much higher the male hours chart goes).
Just remember I will ignore your right/left winged corrections directed at me.I'm not entirely sure what the underlined means.
Gender roles are treated as a bad thing largely because not everybody fits neatly into their assigned box. This results in discomfort for those people. This phenomenon is not at all unique to gender. The same basic theme can be found in "country folk have a child who wants to live in the city" for example. Race and gender issues simply happen to be in fashion right now.Aye. Part of the reason of course for its fashionable-ness right now is the total amount of people who have a disproportionate response to those expectations being challenged is high compared to almost every other individual category. It also helps that that group has also paradoxically lessened its deathgrip on an influential continent between the Altantic and Pacific oceans so the affected have more moderates to appeal to.
In the specific case of gender...I assure you that people are way less inclined to "disproportionate response" to those expectations being challenged now than they were, say...20 years ago.
It also helps that that group has also paradoxically lessened its deathgrip on an influential continent between the Altantic and Pacific oceans so the affected have more moderates to appeal to.Agreed.
Yeah, Tack. Pick a side. You're either with us or against us.
I certainly don't want to deny to a trans woman the option of wearing dresses in order to feel more feminine. The difference in the latter case is that the notion is intimately tied to what she understands to be womanly, instead of what she's told is, and her choices are motivated by her own agency. Moreover, the whole business lacks larger implications for everybody else; there's no need to object to her notion of femininity because it conflicts with your own, for example.
At least, that's my take on it.
Barbie house.Barbies have always been a symbol of unrealistic expectations of femininity, so feminists use them as a strawman for the patriarchy.
Gender roles are treated as a bad thing largely because not everybody fits neatly into their assigned box."not everybody" meaning "nobody." I'm pretty sure nobody in the world actually completely fits their gender stereotype (and feels comfortable doing so)
I'm pretty sure nobody in the world actually completely fits their gender stereotype (and feels comfortable doing so)You would be quite surprised.
Why else would 'man cards' (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gmOvgwhbMW4) exist?Because there's stigma attached to defying gender roles. Just because some people don't want to be outside the tiny gender box, it doesn't mean they aren't.
Just because some people don't want to be outside the tiny gender box, it doesn't mean they aren't.
"modern man".Is 'Modern man' different to the 'New-Age man'?
Much like if a boy wants to go see....Tonka Trucks. Only ever Tonka Trucks.