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Dwarf Fortress => DF Gameplay Questions => Topic started by: slothen on April 06, 2015, 05:12:52 pm

Title: Outdoor defenses with climbers
Post by: slothen on April 06, 2015, 05:12:52 pm
So the 1 tile ditch or stockade doesn't work anymore.  If I want to claim a bit of outside space in the early game, what's a reasonably safe way to do it?  Smoothed stone is out in my case.

Do I need like a 3-4 level tall block wall?  Do i need a 2 level block wall with an overhanging floor?  Do I absolutely need a ceiling over everything?
Title: Re: Outdoor defenses with climbers
Post by: PatrikLundell on April 06, 2015, 05:52:32 pm
I go the courtyard route. That's the fastest way, and it also keeps flying pests like Keas in line (well, the tend to get into the cage traps).
Immediately on embark I start to build the courtyard around my entrance tunnel. The courtyard should be large enough to host my grazers, the initial trade depot, a QS refuse pile, and a few tiles of over ground crops a little later. This means at most 10 * 10. A 3 tile wide drawbridge is used to enter the courtyard, and I tend to build a guard dog single tile room with a grate floor over the drawbridge to detect sneakers. When that's built I extend the construction with a serpentine cage trap trapped trade path up to the bridge, deck that over, and extend it a few times, and close it off with another drawbridge and and another guard dog tower to which I move the dog.
A couple of years later I may start to reconstruct this to get myself an orchard beside the courtyard and the serpentine path (which by that time is no longer used for traders, since the trade depot has been moved to its own entrance with a lot longer path, so additional traps typically have been added), with the entrance to the orchard at the remote end of the path. When the orchard is finished (i.e. the high walls and the roof built) I plug the entrance to it and dismantle the wall separating it from the courtyard (making sure to have build a floor on top of the wall before it's removed).
Title: Re: Outdoor defenses with climbers
Post by: Eldin00 on April 06, 2015, 06:04:31 pm
I've had good luck with a block wall 3 tiles high (or 2 tiles high and surrounded by a 1-deep by 2+ wide ditch) with an overhang. My overhang is usually a wall with fortifications carved in it, though if I actually want to use the fortifications, it requires a roof over the walkway at the top of the wall, to keep marksdwarves from climbing over and then falling off in their lust for melee combat.

A full roof is usually a longterm goal, but even without a roof, that wall design has kept out every non-flying thing which has attacked me thus far (though I generally send the military out to kill the things that attack me. If I were to try to turtle, I might eventually get a few climbers finding their way over the walls)
Title: Re: Outdoor defenses with climbers
Post by: utunnels on April 06, 2015, 07:57:24 pm
Has anyone tried a decent high wall plus fortifications?

I have an impression than enemies can't climb over fortifications.
Title: Re: Outdoor defenses with climbers
Post by: Uzu Bash on April 06, 2015, 09:33:59 pm
I've used expanding walls; instead of building each level right on top of the other, build each further out. This does get more time/resource intensive the higher you go, but you can use each lower wall as a floor to access the higher, so no extra scaffolding is needed, and you can just add the fortifications strategically to use them for patrol routes or stations later.

You can't climb higher than the fortification, but you can climb up the side of it, and if there isn't a ceiling you can jump through it.
Title: Re: Outdoor defenses with climbers
Post by: PatrikLundell on April 07, 2015, 03:27:25 am
The problems with Eldin00's design, from my perspective, are:
- Building walls higher than one level is messy because of the micro management needed if no extra resources are spent, and the time and effort on scaffolding if the efforts are spent.
- Won't keep flying pests out.
- Traps inside the structure can be flown over even after a roof has been added.
+ A multi level courtyard can function as an orchard. Whether tree growth inside it is desired or not is a matter of player taste.

Having said that, I believe it should nevertheless work well for its purpose. It also has the advantage that later on you can build a roof with access from the inside without compromising the safety of the structure, since climbers cannot reach the unfinished roof, and thus not the stairs on the inside either.

I'd say the moat version should be faster to construct, but the building is probably performed during a fortress phase where miners have more urgent infrastructure to dig. Digging in soil is fast, however.
Title: Re: Outdoor defenses with climbers
Post by: MonkeyHead on April 07, 2015, 03:44:45 am
a wider ditch is much easier than a higher wall, and offers the same security.
Title: Re: Outdoor defenses with climbers
Post by: Uzu Bash on April 07, 2015, 08:51:56 am
A ditch just adds another zlvl downward, and on the surface that's unlikely to be a smoothable layer. And moats aren't easy at all to construct; the water (or magma) has to come from somewhere.
Title: Re: Outdoor defenses with climbers
Post by: BoredVirulence on April 07, 2015, 10:30:07 am
Quote from: MonkeyHead on April 07, 2015, 03:44:45 am
a wider ditch is much easier than a higher wall, and offers the same security.

Since its trivial to climb up the soil wall, definitely not. A deeper ditch is more secure, but its still easy.
I would do at least 2 z's of block walls. An accompanying ditch 2-3 z's down could help.

Honestly, it might be easier to channel down until you reach stone you can smooth. You could conceivably perform much of the work underground, then just channel out the ceiling to reveal a massive quarry like "moat."

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

You only need 1 Z of smooth wall that can't be jumped past. In theory invaders could jump, catch themselves on a rough dirt wall, and climb without ever reaching the smooth wall, hence the width of the ditch increases as you get closer to the surface. Thats probably not an issue, it could probably be simplified to just 3 tiles wide for any arbitrary distance. Of course its worth mentioning that if its wider than 2 tiles, they should never attempt to jump removing the issue.
Title: Re: Outdoor defenses with climbers
Post by: PatrikLundell on April 07, 2015, 10:44:11 am
A ditch/moat with a wall with an overhang on top means smoothing is not needed. Water/magma is optional and can be added later if at all. A smoothed wall of a true moat probably doesn't do anything anyway, since a swimming climber probably will start to climb at the level above the water.
The purpose of the extra z level is to stop climbers from jumping up and climb on the overhang. If the extra level is filled with water you lose the jump protection level, but the belief is that critters can't jump out of the water anyway, so you'd end up with about the same protection.

Summary: A 2 level wall with overhang on top (3 levels in total) provides the same protection as a 1 level wall with an overhang on top and a moat or ditch underneath (wide enough to stop jumpers from jumping across to the overhang).
Title: Re: Outdoor defenses with climbers
Post by: Uzu Bash on April 07, 2015, 11:14:47 am
Digging down seems like extra effort that may stop climbers, but doesn't contribute anything to later developing it to defend against fliers. The thread may only be about defense against climbers, but it's not necessary to design defenses that will become obsolete.
Title: Re: Outdoor defenses with climbers
Post by: Niddhoger on April 08, 2015, 04:27:42 am
You guys keep assuming you fill a moat with liquid... psh.  YOU FILL MOATS WITH ZOMBIES IDJITS!

Seriously though, since not every embark has access to zombies... : (  you leave the moat dry.  As weird as it sounds, a dry moat is safer than a non-dry moat due to swimming invaders (trolls and goblins riding crocs).  As has been said, just dig your moat down into the first stone layer and make it a few tiles wide.  You can also put a few "dodge traps" along one-tile wide constructed floors to "encourage" goblins jumping into your moat.  I then usually put a single path up (on hte opposite side naturally) and then line that with traps.  You could also double your moat as a drowning trap, but you'll want an extended bridge to cover up the top of it for this.  Swimmers will still drown if there isn't an empty tile over the water. 

Also, from ancedotal evidence here on the forums, it -is- possible to make a wall so high a novice climber falls off from exhaustion.  This wall needs to be over 20z-levels though.  Some guy was digging an outdoor quarry and noticed a rash of injured miners.  They were climbing the 20+ level wall on one side of hte quarry instead of using the ramps on the other.  The unskilled minors would usually fall a couple times, but they were regularly getting out of the pit.  These weren't smoothed stone or even blocks, so maybe 5-10 of constructed blocks since they are harder to climb.  It also looks like a climber has to have a free hand to attempt climbing, so a goblin with a sword+shield should be unable to climb.

Also... why do people insist on leaving grazers on the surface? 10x10 is only what, 4 sheep with your trade depot and entrance stairs? Breach the caverns and immediatly seal them back up.  Now dig a giant underground room and let your cows and what not graze on cave moss from the security of your fort.  They can't tell the difference. 

That being said, I still make a courtyard, but it's mostly for aesthetics.  I also use bridges at first to make easy roofs.  Also, keep in mind that constructed fortifications lack a floor over them like carved fortifications do.  Thus, if you use fortifications but don't extend your ceiling over them, you are creating "gaps" for flyers.  Otherwise, hanging fortifications (built walls that are carved) with a ceiling over the courtyard will protect against flyers and climbers. 
Title: Re: Outdoor defenses with climbers
Post by: Bumber on April 08, 2015, 08:48:11 am
Quote from: Niddhoger on April 08, 2015, 04:27:42 am
You guys keep assuming you fill a moat with liquid... psh.  YOU FILL MOATS WITH ZOMBIES IDJITS!
The zombies are climbing! AIIIEEEEE!
Title: Re: Outdoor defenses with climbers
Post by: Uzu Bash on April 08, 2015, 10:13:55 am
I originally had dug ditches and moats and found that to be wasted effort after I started building walls. The only ditches worth digging were the ones filled with water, and they were valuable enough to build my walls outside them.

It's very simple to begin expansible climber defense. When you build a wall, you're also building a floor. So get on that floor and build another wall along the outer rim of the bottom wall. Then you have a serviceable climber defense early on that can be built on later. If you're really ambitious, you can keep doing that for 5+ levels  before building a top over it all, completing your defense against fliers.
Title: Re: Outdoor defenses with climbers
Post by: Bumber on April 08, 2015, 11:20:51 am
Y'know, it should be simple enough to put traps all around the walls. It's not over-engineered, but it would work. Can't climb as well with injured limbs.
Title: Re: Outdoor defenses with climbers
Post by: miauw62 on April 08, 2015, 11:29:46 am
I embark next to a stream. 3 wide water moat and a wall with marksdwarves. If invaders decide to climb, you can take potshots. You could also line your roof with cage traps.
Title: Re: Outdoor defenses with climbers
Post by: Uzu Bash on April 08, 2015, 03:19:09 pm
I did that too, but when it came to building the wall I realized that cutting myself off from the potential water and power from it was a tremendous waste, and not necessary for a good defense. And bounding my courtyard with water is both functional and aesthetic. I just put the drawbridge on the outside, opening inward, with separate footbridges to get to the wall.
Title: Re: Outdoor defenses with climbers
Post by: PatrikLundell on April 08, 2015, 04:24:41 pm
Funny enough, I haven't had any starving grazers in my fortresses (I'm not counting the war trained elephants that decided entering the fortress and go down 50 levels was a good idea, since they've abandoned their assigned pasture and no job to haul them back was ever generated), despite small courtyards. Also, it takes time to dig down to the caverns, and you need to keep your grazers somewhere, so by the time I've breached the cavern I've already built a decked over courtyard, and thus don't feel a need to move them.
I'm not too keen on drowning enemies in a moat because it's such a hassle to get rid of the bodies afterwards, so I mostly use cage traps and magma dipping to get rid of enemies. Leaving bodies in the moat promotes unhappiness and panicking caravans...

Bumber's trap suggestion has the disadvantages that you'd need to clean out the traps or having unsightly body parts lying around (as well as jammed traps). I want my dorfs to be able to manage trap reloading in safety, so I have them (both the dorfs and the traps...) inside an outer drawbridge.
Title: Re: Outdoor defenses with climbers
Post by: Uzu Bash on April 08, 2015, 06:18:32 pm
Well any traps for climbers leaves a security hole for fliers, but the enclosure isn't necessarily to prevent enemies from entering so much as to control their entry for your own advantage. If you can open inviting entry points only when its convenient for you, then it's not a disadvantage.
Title: Re: Outdoor defenses with climbers
Post by: Dunamisdeos on April 09, 2015, 12:19:06 am
I MADE A VISUAL AIDE

(http://s4.postimg.org/qlfs7de65/cantclimb.png)
Title: Re: Outdoor defenses with climbers
Post by: Bumber on April 09, 2015, 01:20:22 am
Quote from: PatrikLundell on April 08, 2015, 04:24:41 pm
Bumber's trap suggestion has the disadvantages that you'd need to clean out the traps or having unsightly body parts lying around (as well as jammed traps). I want my dorfs to be able to manage trap reloading in safety, so I have them (both the dorfs and the traps...) inside an outer drawbridge.
It should be sufficient for early game. You can use a magma moat later.

Quote from: Uzu Bash on April 08, 2015, 06:18:32 pm
Well any traps for climbers leaves a security hole for fliers, but the enclosure isn't necessarily to prevent enemies from entering so much as to control their entry for your own advantage. If you can open inviting entry points only when its convenient for you, then it's not a disadvantage.
If you want to stop fliers the only way is a roof. Stops everything, pain to build.

Quote from: Dunamisdeos on April 09, 2015, 12:19:06 am
I MADE A VISUAL AIDE

-snip-
They might be able to jump and grab. I mean they definitely can, but I don't know if they will.

Enemies don't climb without line of sight, anyways. The simplest way to avoid climbers would be simply to not let them see fort members they can't reach. That means your archers should be positioned in an entry hall, not along the walls.
Title: Re: Outdoor defenses with climbers
Post by: PatrikLundell on April 09, 2015, 03:05:45 am
@Bumber: You said enemies can jump to grab an overhang two Z levels above the ground? I though they only could do it one level up?
@Dunamisdeos: On Z+2 you can actually get rid of the part of the wall that's on top of the other two, since the overhang works perfectly well with only connection through the floor atop the second level, and the top level overhang doesn't really add anything.
Title: Re: Outdoor defenses with climbers
Post by: i2amroy on April 09, 2015, 03:35:08 am
See, the mistake that you are all making is a simple one, it's that you are attempting to build defenses that don't involve magma. A 1-high wall with a 1 z-level deep ditch filled with magma will stop any enterprising climber from making it through. For way less resources then it would take to put up a bunch of traps you can just dig straight down, find the magma, and set up a minecart track loop to bring it up to the surface. Then you just run the loop until your moat is full and put up a wall, done. (And it gives you nice early access to magma workshops!).
Title: Re: Outdoor defenses with climbers
Post by: Uzu Bash on April 09, 2015, 03:56:04 am
Quote from: Bumber on April 09, 2015, 01:20:22 am
They might be able to jump and grab. I mean they definitely can, but I don't know if they will.
They actually can't. If there are trees outside the perimeter, they can climb those and jump across, but jumping up z-lvls isn't possible.
Title: Re: Outdoor defenses with climbers
Post by: Niddhoger on April 09, 2015, 06:35:46 am
Quote from: PatrikLundell on April 08, 2015, 04:24:41 pm
Funny enough, I haven't had any starving grazers in my fortresses (I'm not counting the war trained elephants that decided entering the fortress and go down 50 levels was a good idea, since they've abandoned their assigned pasture and no job to haul them back was ever generated), despite small courtyards. Also, it takes time to dig down to the caverns, and you need to keep your grazers somewhere, so by the time I've breached the cavern I've already built a decked over courtyard, and thus don't feel a need to move them.


How many grazers can you keep in that for how long? Sheep are the smallest grazers that are useful, and they have been scienced to need that roughly 4x4 area (will eventually strip smaller areas completely bare). 

As for taking too long.....? Huh? Breaching caverns is done in a couple weeks tops unless you miss all 3 layers on your way to SMR.  Once breached, your miner just digs a set of up/down stairs next to the breach and grabs a stone from a few tiles above him to wall off the bottom of the main shaft.  The other miner can easily have an underground "pasture" dug out and maybe the dining room as well.  It takes -far- more time to cut the stone blocks, build the courtyard, and then deck it over  (you can be doing both at the same time anyway...).  You want to find your cavern layers anyway to help plain your fortress.  Is the first layer at -8/-10? That drastically cuts into your basic fort layout.  Is the magma past -150? that makes magma powered smelters all the more annoying.  Are the first couple of layers dry?  Should I just set up a drain for those murky pools and then pump them into a reservoir then?  You can also cage trap the crap out of the entrance to the first one for early food/beasties to train- just be prepared to seal it off in case something actually dangerous (FB) comes through.  Getting the spores going not only gives you an underground pastures that is both "walled" and "roofed" in a fraction of the time (dug from dirt), but you can set up an underground tree/herb area as well. 
Title: Re: Outdoor defenses with climbers
Post by: Bumber on April 09, 2015, 09:27:19 am
Quote from: Uzu Bash on April 09, 2015, 03:56:04 am
Quote from: Bumber on April 09, 2015, 01:20:22 am
They might be able to jump and grab. I mean they definitely can, but I don't know if they will.
They actually can't. If there are trees outside the perimeter, they can climb those and jump across, but jumping up z-lvls isn't possible.
Just tried it in the arena. They don't even need to jump. You can hang onto the ceiling and climb right around the overhang.

Edit: Use floors for the overhang. They can't be held, even from below.
Title: Re: Outdoor defenses with climbers
Post by: Uzu Bash on April 09, 2015, 09:34:31 am
I agree with Niddhoger, outdoor defense is way more effort than it's worth, and colonizing a cavern is a much easier and more secure alternative. If you have a hostile exterior then it's imperative to do that first and capture the topside after you have the necessities covered and military trained. If your surface is relatively tranquil, then you have the luxury of spreading pastures and harvesting plants while fortifying a perimeter that will remain porous until construction is complete.

Quote from: Bumber on April 09, 2015, 09:27:19 am
Quote from: Uzu Bash on April 09, 2015, 03:56:04 am
Quote from: Bumber on April 09, 2015, 01:20:22 am
They might be able to jump and grab. I mean they definitely can, but I don't know if they will.
They actually can't. If there are trees outside the perimeter, they can climb those and jump across, but jumping up z-lvls isn't possible.
Just tried it in the arena. They don't even need to jump. You can hang onto the ceiling and climb right around the overhang.
You can hang onto ceilings? I don't think I've seen a ceiling I was able to grab hold of. Overhead branches and twigs for sure, but not a solid ceiling.
Title: Re: Outdoor defenses with climbers
Post by: Bumber on April 09, 2015, 09:36:45 am
Quote from: Uzu Bash on April 09, 2015, 09:34:31 am
You can hang onto ceilings? I don't think I've seen a ceiling I was able to grab hold of. Overhead branches and twigs for sure, but not a solid ceiling.
If they're made of walls, then yes.

Immune to climbers:
█_
█_______
Title: Re: Outdoor defenses with climbers
Post by: Uzu Bash on April 09, 2015, 09:43:14 am
Quote from: Bumber on April 09, 2015, 09:36:45 am
Quote from: Uzu Bash on April 09, 2015, 09:34:31 am
You can hang onto ceilings? I don't think I've seen a ceiling I was able to grab hold of. Overhead branches and twigs for sure, but not a solid ceiling.
If they're made of walls, then yes.

Immune to climbers:
█_
█_______
Made of walls? Do you mean rock block specifically? I just tried with a stalactite I dug a level out of. Couldn't grip the level above from directly beneath or from any of the edges or corners.  I do not see how replacing that floor with a wall would make it more vulnerable to climbers.
Title: Re: Outdoor defenses with climbers
Post by: Bumber on April 09, 2015, 09:54:25 am
Quote from: Uzu Bash on April 09, 2015, 09:43:14 am
Made of walls? Do you mean rock block specifically? I just tried with a stalactite I dug a level out of. Couldn't grip the level above from directly beneath or from any of the edges or corners.  I do not see how replacing that floor with a wall would make it more vulnerable to climbers.
Looks like it wasn't the ceiling, but the wall. They can move diagonally up:
__
██
█g
█___

__
██g
█
█___

Making the overhang longer helps (but is impractical to build):
___
███
█g
█___

Or just use the floor method, saving a z-level and width because they can't grab that tile:
_
█_
█_g_
Title: Re: Outdoor defenses with climbers
Post by: Uzu Bash on April 09, 2015, 10:23:02 am
Hm. The point of putting the wall outward rather than one on top of the other was to have the convenience of that floor, during construction and after. Just build from the top of the lower wall instead of putting up scaffolding.
 █
█_
But you're right, if the AI does path it then it's not secure. Replacing that upper wall with a fortification prevents climbing higher, but I can jump straight through it instead.
Title: Re: Outdoor defenses with climbers
Post by: Bumber on April 09, 2015, 10:36:53 am
Quote from: Uzu Bash on April 09, 2015, 10:23:02 am
Hm. The point of putting the wall outward rather than one on top of the other was to have the convenience of that floor, during construction and after. Just build from the top of the lower wall instead of putting up scaffolding.
 █
█_
But you're right, if the AI does path it then it's not secure. Replacing that upper wall with a fortification prevents climbing higher, but I can jump straight through it instead.
_╬
█_
█___
Title: Re: Outdoor defenses with climbers
Post by: Cobbler89 on April 09, 2015, 11:56:33 am
If you don't want to build any scaffolding, would this work?

Code: [Select]
  _
_|___
Or would your dwarves jump down to the outside where they can't get back from?

If so, an alternative...
Code: [Select]
   _|
  |
_|___
(Floor overhang should block climbers from the outside, second level of wall allows there to be a third level too high to be reached from the ground.)

Actually... are we sure this wouldn't work?
Code: [Select]
   |
  |
_|___
That is, can enemies actually climb up from the side of the second level wall to the side of the third? Or is it only that they can climb from the ground to the second?

Presumably, in either of these cases you could later replace the top level of wall with fortifications if you're willing to do whatever else is necessary to keep dwarves from climbing out the fortification... right?

What may be an even bigger question, I think, is "what do you do for the gate?"
Title: Re: Outdoor defenses with climbers
Post by: HartLord on April 09, 2015, 12:55:37 pm
I wonder how well something along these lines would work:

_╬
█╬
██__
Title: Re: Outdoor defenses with climbers
Post by: Uzu Bash on April 09, 2015, 01:15:01 pm
Quote from: Cobbler89 on April 09, 2015, 11:56:33 am
What may be an even bigger question, I think, is "what do you do for the gate?"
Because I kept my moat on the inside, I made a drawbridge from the outside in. While it's closed, it's an unclimbable stretch of wall along the ground level. It opens inward only over water, so no danger from atomsmashing when it opens, but still a hazard when it closes.
Title: Re: Outdoor defenses with climbers
Post by: Bumber on April 09, 2015, 01:18:51 pm
Quote from: Cobbler89 on April 09, 2015, 11:56:33 am
If you don't want to build any scaffolding, would this work?
-snip-
What may be an even bigger question, I think, is "what do you do for the gate?"
If you don't want your dwarves jumping over just use another floor on the other side:
___
_█__

Not sure what you're trying to accomplish with the second one, but the third is unsafe. A gate is just a wall when closed. It needs no special consideration.

Quote from: HartLord on April 09, 2015, 12:55:37 pm
I wonder how well something along these lines would work:

_╬
█╬
██__
I can't vouch for climbability of fortifications (I think the roofless ones are safe,) but this should work too:
___
_╬
█__

or
___
_╬
█╬_

or
___
_╬
██_

Hopefully they can't sneak up through the diagonal of the first two somehow. Adventurers can't, but IDK if AI follows different rules. You can remove the floors if roofless fortifications are safe.

Edit: These designs are all unsafe. You can climb onto the side of a fortification and jump straight through.
Title: Re: Outdoor defenses with climbers
Post by: Bumber on April 09, 2015, 01:55:14 pm
New idea:
_╬╬
█
█___

Can you shoot through the bottom of a fortification? I'm trying to reduce blind spots. (Edit: Nope.) Otherwise, just stick with this one:
_╬
█_
█___
Title: Re: Outdoor defenses with climbers
Post by: Naryar on April 09, 2015, 02:00:38 pm
There is something wrong here...

You fill moats with magma, not zombies.
Title: Re: Outdoor defenses with climbers
Post by: Uzu Bash on April 09, 2015, 02:03:42 pm
Quote from: Naryar on April 09, 2015, 02:00:38 pm
There is something wrong here...

You fill moats with magma, not zombies.
Why not both, in no particular order?
Title: Re: Outdoor defenses with climbers
Post by: Naryar on April 09, 2015, 02:11:46 pm
Quote from: Uzu Bash on April 09, 2015, 02:03:42 pm
Quote from: Naryar on April 09, 2015, 02:00:38 pm
There is something wrong here...

You fill moats with magma, not zombies.
Why not both, in no particular order?

Because zombies are no longer fire-immune.

Maybe magma crab zombies, though ? So the moat actually spits magma, which is even more dwarven.
Title: Re: Outdoor defenses with climbers
Post by: PatrikLundell on April 09, 2015, 04:35:31 pm
I typically embark with 3+3 sheep, and then there are 2 random draft animals, so that's what goes into my courtyard. Any grazers immigrants bring go there as well.

It might be that it doesn't take that long to breach the caverns if you dedicate one miner to it, but it still means you're one miner short for the other basic stuff, like an underground farm, workshops, food/booze stockpile, quarters,...

Also, I don't make my courtyard from blocks, but from logs, and there tend to be trees around that need to be removed anyway.

Making a larger overhang isn't that difficult. Just make the innermost one a floor outside of the wall, and then place a wall or fortification outside of that. What we need now is boiling oil to pour on top of the invaders. Magma has the advantage of removing unsightly bodies, but it also removes the precious loin cloths, and I suspect non magma safe metal items are in danger as well.
Title: Re: Outdoor defenses with climbers
Post by: BoredVirulence on April 09, 2015, 06:03:17 pm
Quote from: Naryar on April 09, 2015, 02:11:46 pm
Quote from: Uzu Bash on April 09, 2015, 02:03:42 pm
Quote from: Naryar on April 09, 2015, 02:00:38 pm
There is something wrong here...

You fill moats with magma, not zombies.
Why not both, in no particular order?

Because zombies are no longer fire-immune.

Maybe magma crab zombies, though ? So the moat actually spits magma, which is even more dwarven.

Thank you for giving me a reason to continue my plans with magma crabs. I previously planned on making them have constant temperature wool (so I could produce flame resistant clothing, doesn't work). I now have a reason to continue regardless, magma crab moats. I shall include complex jumping puzzles for them too.
Title: Re: Outdoor defenses with climbers
Post by: Dunamisdeos on April 09, 2015, 07:46:09 pm
Quote from: BoredVirulence on April 09, 2015, 06:03:17 pm
Quote from: Naryar on April 09, 2015, 02:11:46 pm
Quote from: Uzu Bash on April 09, 2015, 02:03:42 pm
Quote from: Naryar on April 09, 2015, 02:00:38 pm
There is something wrong here...

You fill moats with magma, not zombies.
Why not both, in no particular order?

Because zombies are no longer fire-immune.

Maybe magma crab zombies, though ? So the moat actually spits magma, which is even more dwarven.

Thank you for giving me a reason to continue my plans with magma crabs. I previously planned on making them have constant temperature wool (so I could produce flame resistant clothing, doesn't work). I now have a reason to continue regardless, magma crab moats. I shall include complex jumping puzzles for them too.

Can you tame magma crabs? If so, magma crab towers are the penultimate fort defense.
Title: Re: Outdoor defenses with climbers
Post by: Blue_Dwarf on April 09, 2015, 08:18:05 pm
Wouldn't they burn the landscape though?
Title: Re: Outdoor defenses with climbers
Post by: Naryar on April 10, 2015, 05:34:39 am
Quote from: Dunamisdeos on April 09, 2015, 07:46:09 pm
Quote from: BoredVirulence on April 09, 2015, 06:03:17 pm
Quote from: Naryar on April 09, 2015, 02:11:46 pm
Quote from: Uzu Bash on April 09, 2015, 02:03:42 pm
Quote from: Naryar on April 09, 2015, 02:00:38 pm
There is something wrong here...

You fill moats with magma, not zombies.
Why not both, in no particular order?

Because zombies are no longer fire-immune.

Maybe magma crab zombies, though ? So the moat actually spits magma, which is even more dwarven.

Thank you for giving me a reason to continue my plans with magma crabs. I previously planned on making them have constant temperature wool (so I could produce flame resistant clothing, doesn't work). I now have a reason to continue regardless, magma crab moats. I shall include complex jumping puzzles for them too.

Can you tame magma crabs? If so, magma crab towers are the penultimate fort defense.

No, but they attack everything. Or at least they did in last version. Or you can mod them to be tameable.

Quote from: Blue_Dwarf on April 09, 2015, 08:18:05 pm
Wouldn't they burn the landscape though?

You say that as if it's a bad thing...
Title: Re: Outdoor defenses with climbers
Post by: BoredVirulence on April 10, 2015, 01:55:48 pm
Quote from: Naryar on April 10, 2015, 05:34:39 am
Quote from: Dunamisdeos on April 09, 2015, 07:46:09 pm
Quote from: BoredVirulence on April 09, 2015, 06:03:17 pm
Quote from: Naryar on April 09, 2015, 02:11:46 pm
Quote from: Uzu Bash on April 09, 2015, 02:03:42 pm
Quote from: Naryar on April 09, 2015, 02:00:38 pm
There is something wrong here...

You fill moats with magma, not zombies.
Why not both, in no particular order?

Because zombies are no longer fire-immune.

Maybe magma crab zombies, though ? So the moat actually spits magma, which is even more dwarven.

Thank you for giving me a reason to continue my plans with magma crabs. I previously planned on making them have constant temperature wool (so I could produce flame resistant clothing, doesn't work). I now have a reason to continue regardless, magma crab moats. I shall include complex jumping puzzles for them too.

Can you tame magma crabs? If so, magma crab towers are the penultimate fort defense.

No, but they attack everything. Or at least they did in last version. Or you can mod them to be tameable.

Quote from: Blue_Dwarf on April 09, 2015, 08:18:05 pm
Wouldn't they burn the landscape though?

You say that as if it's a bad thing...

Yeah, you can at least mod them to be tameable. And really, whats the point of giving them wool if you can't tame and shear it? Now I get to add magma-moats-with-globs-of-basalt-spewing-forth-with-deadly-force to the usefulness of my modded magma crabs in addition to useless-constant-temperature-clothes. Its just another reason to do something stupid.
Title: Re: Outdoor defenses with climbers
Post by: Blue_Dwarf on April 11, 2015, 01:07:45 am
Quote from: Naryar on April 10, 2015, 05:34:39 am
You say that as if it's a bad thing...

Wood doesn't grow on trees, you know. You need to chop some, and it's no good if it all burns to hell.
Title: Re: Outdoor defenses with climbers
Post by: PatrikLundell on April 11, 2015, 02:45:26 am
When you've gotten hold of magma crabs you surely have got access to fungal trees as well, so burning away the overland trees shouldn't be that much of a problem. Just make sure to block the crabs from putting your courtyard pasture+orchard on fire, or you'll run out of cider.
Also, it seemed mature trees could survive a fire when a Titan started one for me, so you may still have some overland trees left anyway.
Title: Re: Outdoor defenses with climbers
Post by: Naryar on April 11, 2015, 04:32:51 am
Quote from: Blue_Dwarf on April 11, 2015, 01:07:45 am
Quote from: Naryar on April 10, 2015, 05:34:39 am
You say that as if it's a bad thing...

Wood doesn't grow on trees, you know. You need to chop some, and it's no good if it all burns to hell.

You mean the caverns doesn't have enough wood ?

Also underground tree farms.
Title: Re: Outdoor defenses with climbers
Post by: Niddhoger on April 11, 2015, 08:29:17 am
Quote from: PatrikLundell on April 09, 2015, 04:35:31 pm
It might be that it doesn't take that long to breach the caverns if you dedicate one miner to it, but it still means you're one miner short for the other basic stuff, like an underground farm, workshops, food/booze stockpile, quarters,...

Also, I don't make my courtyard from blocks, but from logs, and there tend to be trees around that need to be removed anyway.


That's why you bring two miners.  Also, digging underground farms are -very- quick to do from dirt.  You don't need 1000000 squares of it, as even with half-trained farmers 2 squares easily feeds+boozes up three dorfs.  I never actually do this though, as there is no reason your dorfs shouldn't be picking herbs while your miners dig (unless you are in an evil biome, desert, or other lifeless embark).  They have nothing better to do before the miners get things set up, so they might as well gather some early food/brewable plants.  You can dig the dining room first, but you don't need to make a giant 20x20 dining room off the bat.  Something like 5x5 works until you get a couple of migrant waves- just leave room for the expansion.  Also, unless you embarked right next to a tower- nothing will attack you for a couple of years.  If you massively push wealth from day 1 you might need defenses up that quickly- but why would you? You are seriously overestimating the time it takes to breach caverns- its less than a month to hit hte magma sea.  Your farmers and what not can't even be working if you are needing to build a giant structure worth at least a few hundred logs of walls and floors placed one at a time. 
Title: Re: Outdoor defenses with climbers
Post by: PatrikLundell on April 11, 2015, 11:20:06 am
My initial underground farm plot is 3*3, but I place and underground seed stockpile there, as well as the brewery, a farmer's workshop for thread production, 3 looms, and 3 clothiers in the area, plus the QS' needed to feed these, although I don't build all of these at once. I tend to use the area as a temporary stockpile out of reach of thieving critters early on, though, and since it's dug in dirt it's fairly quick to dig (although my miners are always completely untrained on embark).
After that I dig the workshop area, which typically ends up being dug in stone underneath the farming area and get to work constructing cage traps, mine carts, mechanisms, etc. and that's when the courtyard builders/stockpile haulers see a drain in manpower.
Next comes the kitchen/animal pen/butcher/tanner/fish cleanery, although I tend to dig out only the animal pen at first to get the animals in place.
Thereafter the initial dining hall, and I also tend to dig a 3*3 room for the accountant. That's about when the summer migrants arrive, and I still don't have any bed rooms.

Now, if I was to embark in an environment that's too hostile on the surface, like a glacier, I'd probably skip bringing grazing livestock and try to buy them from caravans instead. The only thing I want from grazers is wool, anyway (I could go one step further and buy wool cloth directly, to support moods), but as far as I know there aren't any shearable cavern critters except trolls, which are considered too intelligent to be kept in captivity by dorfs, and so are better off killed (I've gotten some thread from clown hair, but that thread is not usable for cloth, and I suspect the same thing goes for wooly titans/FBs).
I also SHOULD get complications in the form of an aquifer since I try to have them in my embarks, although so far I haven't been completely blocked by them.
Title: Re: Outdoor defenses with climbers
Post by: HartLord on April 11, 2015, 02:44:43 pm
How well do metal bar walls do against climbers?
Title: Re: Outdoor defenses with climbers
Post by: Bumber on April 11, 2015, 10:32:58 pm
Quote from: HartLord on April 11, 2015, 02:44:43 pm
How well do metal bar walls do against climbers?
Very poorly. At par or worse than rough walls.
Title: Re: Outdoor defenses with climbers
Post by: Montieth on April 25, 2015, 01:38:46 am
I have had passable success with the following:

Top side I build a small keep on a hill or as part of a cliff face. A hill is easier as you can shoot down in all directions. The core layer gets a keep. 2-3 towers, a few rooms, an office or two for the militia and they all get windows or fortifications to look out upon the landscape with.

The keep gets a curtain wall, usually 2-3 layers high and topped with walls topped with fortifications and that level a roof. The curtain wall usually set atop a second layer down from the keep, if stone that is smoothed. If soil it's dug out and replaced with blocks of what ever the native stone is. Walls of keep and curtain wall both top their layer out by a tile so there is an overhang. This helps avoid most of the climbers. Having one set of archers in the center keep and another in the covered and protected fortifications helps greatly. Sometimes a spry goblin tops a wall and he's now seen by an entire squad. He is soon pincushioned.

If time permits, then a third wall is erected out of wood cut from the path it takes, that is atop a dry moat which is three wide and one deep. Diggin it takes no time at all in soil by then. It also has an overhang. This goes around a nearby forest preserve and usually serves not to keep goblins out but to slow them down allowing the gatherers and wood cutters to hoof it to safety. There is usually one open gate which crosses the moat and allows the past the outer perimeter wall but that's just the way it works. Sometimes the moat has to be cleared of trees. So does the walls. But the hill forts work well and usually cover the entrance that goes to a grand entrance wall where I can let goblins in, trap them behind sets of gates and rain iron bolts down at my dwarves' leisure. Last few seiges have had nothing inside the walls and nothing where I didn't want it. And wounded goblins and trolls are very poor climbers.

Now, militarily speaking, no fortifications are useful if not covered by defensive fire. I use a path that is circuitous to allow an easier path rather than over the wall. But it is a path that the goblins will have to run through traps or past archers or something. That takes the stuffing out of them.

Every good fort has to have a place you let the enemy in. (cf The Seven Samuraii)  Then the walls no longer serve to keep them out, but to keep them in. (cf Walter Kovachs)