Bay 12 Games Forum

Finally... => General Discussion => Topic started by: Skyrunner on April 22, 2015, 12:51:55 am

Title: Bay12 Census 2015 -- Question committee, survey now live
Post by: Skyrunner on April 22, 2015, 12:51:55 am
Survey live (http://goo.gl/forms/xYa2GXNfBv)!



The last time I ran an informal Bay12 census I created all of the questions on my own. I soon realized that I actually wanted a lot of more questions and some of the questions were ambiguous. So this time around I will open a discussion on which questions to include, and how to run the census in general.


The last census ran for 5 days; perhaps this one should have set start and finish dates?

Last time, these were the questions (and this is a link to the results (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=136482.msg5034505#msg5034505)):

1. What is your birthday? [frequency graph--should make it a bar graph next time]
2. What is your age? [curve--again, should be a bar graph]
3. Where do you live? [area map--should be a "population map" with circles on nations, probably]
4. Country of origin? [same as 3]
5. Have you ever played a ToadyOne game? [pie chart]
6. Have you ever played a non-DF ToadyOne game? [pie chart]
7. Which boards do you go to? [bar graph]
8. Have you accepted Tarn Adams as your lord and saviour? [pie chart]
9. What degree of education do you plan on completing? [pie chart]
10. What languages are you fluent in? [bar graph]
11. Preferred OS? [pie chart]
12. Are you clinically diagnosed with a mental disorder? [pie chart]
13. How fast is your internet? [line]
14. How would you rate your political inclination? [bar graph]
15. What is your employment status? [pie chart]
16. What gender do you identify as? [pie chart]
17. Cats or dogs? [pie chart]
18. How much time do you spend on Bay12 every day? [line -- possibly should be bar graph]

My initial thoughts are:

14 should be deleted, 16 should be split into two questions: gender (male, female) and inclination (hetero, homo, fluid, bi, etc). Perhaps a follow-up question to 12 would be interesting, called 12b and asking which kind(s) of mental disorders in broad strokes, eg Depression/ADHD/Schizophrenia. I am concerned that this would feel too privacy-invading though, even if all questions are optional.

What other questions could be included, and should some questions be reworded?

also: This time around I might put the results on an interactive javascript page.
Title: Re: Bay12 Census 2015 -- Question committee!
Post by: Yoink on April 22, 2015, 03:38:40 am
also: This time around I might put the results on an interactive javascript page.
I read "javascript" as "lasagne". Now I'm hungry. :(
You should have a question about lasagne. Or at least something to do with food in general. Otherwise it all seems pretty good!
Title: Re: Bay12 Census 2015 -- Question committee!
Post by: Shinotsa on April 22, 2015, 03:42:59 am
I'd like both sex and gender to be questions, as well as sexual orientation. These seem to be hot topics recently and I'm interested in the demographics.

Mental disorders would have to be classified under broad strokes such as personality, mood, or psychotic disorders
Title: Re: Bay12 Census 2015 -- Question committee!
Post by: Skyrunner on April 22, 2015, 04:20:58 am
Could you give me an example of the options for sex, gender, and sexual orientation?
Title: Re: Bay12 Census 2015 -- Question committee!
Post by: Andres on April 22, 2015, 04:35:56 am
Sex and gender are the same thing, except sex is biological while gender is identi...identicish...identical.....it's based on identity.
Title: Re: Bay12 Census 2015 -- Question committee!
Post by: a1s on April 22, 2015, 04:59:18 am
Last time, these were the questions (and this is a link to the results (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=136482.msg5034505#msg5034505)):
A lot of those pie-cahrts add up to more than 200% percent. What's up with that?
Title: Re: Bay12 Census 2015 -- Question committee!
Post by: Skyrunner on April 22, 2015, 05:05:01 am
Sex and gender are the same thing, except sex is biological while gender is identi...identicish...identical.....it's based on identity.
No, not the concepts, I meant actual options :P eg:

Gender: Male, Female, Other
Orientation: Heterosexual, Homosexual, Bisexual, Other

I don't know what kind of options there should be for a set of 3 questions (sex/gender/orientation).

Last time, these were the questions (and this is a link to the results (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=136482.msg5034505#msg5034505)):
A lot of those pie-cahrts add up to more than 200% percent. What's up with that?
Can you name one? All of them look normal to me.
Title: Re: Bay12 Census 2015 -- Question committee!
Post by: Orange Wizard on April 22, 2015, 05:13:11 am
I'd like to see an expansion of the political questions, rather than just "liberal" through "conservative".

...

Last time, these were the questions (and this is a link to the results (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=136482.msg5034505#msg5034505)):
A lot of those pie-cahrts add up to more than 200% percent. What's up with that?
You're counting the raw numbers rather than the percentages. All the percentages add up to 100.

...

Gender: Male, Female, Other
Orientation: Heterosexual, Homosexual, Bisexual, Other
Looks about right. People may complain about obscure nonsense being excluded, though.

Also, inb4 everyone votes "other" to troll me.
Title: Re: Bay12 Census 2015 -- Question committee!
Post by: karhell on April 22, 2015, 05:21:21 am
Last time, these were the questions (and this is a link to the results (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=136482.msg5034505#msg5034505)):
A lot of those pie-cahrts add up to more than 200% percent. What's up with that?
You're counting the raw numbers rather than the percentages. All the percentages add up to 100.

Not in the one pertaining to the acceptance of Toady One as our Lord and Saviour
Title: Re: Bay12 Census 2015 -- Question committee!
Post by: Skyrunner on April 22, 2015, 05:25:43 am
I'd like to see an expansion of the political questions, rather than just "liberal" through "conservative".

Could you propose a series of questions and options for that? I am a bit detached from politics so i don't really know what kind of options I should have...
Title: Re: Bay12 Census 2015 -- Question committee!
Post by: a1s on April 22, 2015, 06:35:11 am
Last time, these were the questions (and this is a link to the results (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=136482.msg5034505#msg5034505)):
A lot of those pie-cahrts add up to more than 200% percent. What's up with that?
You're counting the raw numbers rather than the percentages. All the percentages add up to 100.
Ah, so I am. A note on style then: a lot of people (like Yours Truly) will automatically interpret comma as a decimal separator unless they make a mental effort. Please use parentheses.


No, not the concepts, I meant actual options :P eg:
The Facebbok List (http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/02/15/the-complete-glossary-of-facebook-s-51-gender-options.html) (with explanations). And here (http://lgbt.wisc.edu/documents/Trans_and_queer_glossary.pdf)'s a more official glossary of LGBT terms (sadly too broad to just copy and paste)
If you want to keep it short you can go with:
Sex: Male, Female, Both, Neither
Gender:Male, Female, Both, Neither
Orientation: 0-7(or X) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinsey_scale)
Title: Re: Bay12 Census 2015 -- Question committee!
Post by: karhell on April 22, 2015, 07:14:36 am
Last time, these were the questions (and this is a link to the results (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=136482.msg5034505#msg5034505)):
A lot of those pie-cahrts add up to more than 200% percent. What's up with that?
You're counting the raw numbers rather than the percentages. All the percentages add up to 100.
Ah, so I am. A note on style then: a lot of people (like Yours Truly) will automatically interpret comma as a decimal separator unless they make a mental effort. Please use parentheses.
*checks*


...


*checks again*

O______O

Well, Yours Also Truly seems to have made the same mistake >.<
Title: Re: Bay12 Census 2015 -- Question committee!
Post by: penguinofhonor on April 22, 2015, 07:27:59 am
.
Title: Re: Bay12 Census 2015 -- Question committee!
Post by: a1s on April 22, 2015, 07:56:52 am
I don't see a reason for a biological sex option.
There's no point to any of this, but if you're going to pry into people's identity, you might as well ask if the curtain rod matches the drapes. It goes without saying that both questions are very optional.
Title: Re: Bay12 Census 2015 -- Question committee!
Post by: Skyrunner on April 22, 2015, 07:59:32 am
There should be an option for grisha5. Also I don't see a reason for a biological sex option.
I intended that trans people mark the gender they identify as... I am not sure how one would go about classifying people outside of the "standard" lgbt spectrum though. Other?
Title: Re: Bay12 Census 2015 -- Question committee!
Post by: penguinofhonor on April 22, 2015, 08:07:53 am
.
Title: Re: Bay12 Census 2015 -- Question committee!
Post by: Flying Dice on April 22, 2015, 09:01:15 am
Oh hey, this is back! Might be interesting to pair a question about preferred browser with the preferred OS.

Also, with the employment status, I'd suggest doing something other than a pie chart so that you could have a multi-option thing including: unemployed, employed, and student, since I'd guess that some of the people on here are probably newly into their undergrad work without a job yet, which is pretty different from being unemployed or NEET.

Also please remember to have an option for those of us who identify as attack helicopters.
Title: Re: Bay12 Census 2015 -- Question committee!
Post by: a1s on April 22, 2015, 09:04:59 am
Anyway if you want to determine the transness of the forum, "What is your biological sex?" is not the most effective way to do it. 5 trans men and 5 trans women will poll the same as 5 cis min and 5 cis women. "Are you trans/cis?" would be better.
Just because polls are anonymous, that doesn't mean you can't correlate answers within the forms (surely? It somewhat narrows your possibility of statistical analysis if you can't.)
Trans- and Cis- are actually not binary, but a scale. You might not (physically) match your genetic sex 100% at birth, or you might get some surgery but not others and/or opt out of hormones. If Skyrunner wishes to process the data, I'd love to see the genetic sex question as MC (4 options) and gender identity as a complete write-in.
Title: Re: Bay12 Census 2015 -- Question committee!
Post by: Skyrunner on April 22, 2015, 09:11:03 am
Oh hey, this is back! Might be interesting to pair a question about preferred browser with the preferred OS.

Also, with the employment status, I'd suggest doing something other than a pie chart so that you could have a multi-option thing including: unemployed, employed, and student, since I'd guess that some of the people on here are probably newly into their undergrad work without a job yet, which is pretty different from being unemployed or NEET.

Also please remember to have an option for those of us who identify as attack helicopters.

Could you clarify about the italicized part? Being an undergrad seems to simply mean being a student to me...
Title: Re: Bay12 Census 2015 -- Question committee!
Post by: a1s on April 22, 2015, 09:14:51 am
Being a student is orthogonal to employment- many students hold part time jobs (and not just as waiters- real entry-level jobs in their chosen industry) Conversely some people work full time and are attending (re)training courses and want that recognized.
Title: Re: Bay12 Census 2015 -- Question committee!
Post by: Flying Dice on April 22, 2015, 09:15:34 am
^+V

I was saying there that someone who just entered university for their bachelor's might be less likely to have a job than a high school student, grad student, or upperclass undergrad student, as they're typically in a new town while trying to get settled in to a new home and get used to the differences in responsibilities &c. Not always true, but anecdotally I've seen a lot of freshmen like that who don't get jobs until their second or third year.
Title: Re: Bay12 Census 2015 -- Question committee!
Post by: Antsan on April 22, 2015, 09:38:33 am
Regarding politics: Asking for political ideologies seems to make more sense than asking for a point on a sliding scale.
Title: Re: Bay12 Census 2015 -- Question committee!
Post by: Skyrunner on April 22, 2015, 09:40:33 am
Regarding politics: Asking for political ideologies seems to make more sense than asking for a point on a sliding scale.

Could you provide a sample list?

(I hope nobody is offended by me saying this again and again >_>)
Title: Re: Bay12 Census 2015 -- Question committee!
Post by: Tack on April 22, 2015, 09:57:02 am
Politics seems to be very American-oriented. Which is various pie-chart percentage of us.
Q's (suggested and otherwise)

1. Identified gender
2. Cis/Trans?
3. Hetero/Homo/Bi/Other
(Could all be bundled into one pie chart even)

1. Preferred OS
2. Preferred browser (IE, Firefox, Chrome, Other)

Also- THEOLOGY
1. Religious identity. (Christian, Islam, Buddhist, Muslim, Jewish, Agnostic, Atheist, Spiritual, Etc)

Although I very much reserve the right to submit all this stuff confidentially.
Title: Re: Bay12 Census 2015 -- Question committee!
Post by: Antsan on April 22, 2015, 10:20:20 am
Regarding politics: Asking for political ideologies seems to make more sense than asking for a point on a sliding scale.

Could you provide a sample list?

(I hope nobody is offended by me saying this again and again >_>)
I don't really know that many by name, but here are a few, some of them probably without potential voters and others nonsensical/actually called something else:

Anarchist
Communist
Socialist
Social Democrat
Free Market Capitalist
Objectivist
Monarchist
Fascist
Theocrat
Technocrat

I'm sure I am missing a few I should know. "Anarchist" and "Communist" provide plenty of room for diversification and there are probably many capitalist ideologies out there.
Title: Re: Bay12 Census 2015 -- Question committee!
Post by: Skyrunner on April 22, 2015, 10:35:27 am
Although I very much reserve the right to submit all this stuff confidentially.
The only guarantees I can make you are that (1) your name is not on the data sheet (though I suppose that one could piece together who is who (2) Personally-identifiable information will not be ever shared--only I can see a correlated set of data. (3) Most questions will be optional.. personal-info ones, almost definitely (4) I have no interest in finding out who is who, especially out of 400 pieces of info.

So I guess it depends on how much you trust me :P
Title: Re: Bay12 Census 2015 -- Question committee!
Post by: Caz on April 22, 2015, 12:13:24 pm
Left/Right handedness. Just out of curiosity.
Title: Re: Bay12 Census 2015 -- Question committee!
Post by: Orange Wizard on April 22, 2015, 05:50:28 pm
Actually, just a though - if you're asking about both sex and gender, it might be prudent to ask both in the one question. That way we can see any overlap a lot more easily than if the questions were separate.

I'd like to see an expansion of the political questions, rather than just "liberal" through "conservative".
Could you propose a series of questions and options for that? I am a bit detached from politics so i don't really know what kind of options I should have...
You could keep it fairly simple and ask where people fall on a scale of left to right for economic and social policy.

Left/Right handedness. Just out of curiosity.
Also this.
Title: Re: Bay12 Census 2015 -- Question committee!
Post by: penguinofhonor on April 22, 2015, 05:56:15 pm
.
Title: Re: Bay12 Census 2015 -- Question committee!
Post by: Magistrum on April 22, 2015, 07:10:54 pm
What about "Sex and/or Gender:" followed by a blank where you can put in whatever?
There would be far too many Octopuses, Squids and other phalus-life.
Title: Re: Bay12 Census 2015 -- Question committee!
Post by: Avis-Mergulus on April 22, 2015, 08:00:32 pm
For the politics thing, how about three sliding scales, like this:

Economics: Liberal ----------- Pro - regulation
Social policy: Liberal ---------- Conservative
External policy: Stick to internal affairs and hope everybody forgets us --------- Show them foreigners who's boss
Title: Re: Bay12 Census 2015 -- Question committee!
Post by: penguinofhonor on April 22, 2015, 08:11:14 pm
.
Title: Re: Bay12 Census 2015 -- Question committee!
Post by: Avis-Mergulus on April 22, 2015, 08:42:45 pm
Aren't liberal economic views pro-regulation?
It was my opinion they weren't... at least here, decreasing regulations is called "liberalization of the economy" and the people who push it are called liberals. I thought "liberal economic views" means you're in favor of "liberating" economic agents from regulation. I may have been dreadfully wrong/region-specific here, so sorry.
Title: Re: Bay12 Census 2015 -- Question committee!
Post by: Tack on April 23, 2015, 12:23:09 am
Actually, just a though - if you're asking about both sex and gender, it might be prudent to ask both in the one question. That way we can see any overlap a lot more easily than if the questions were separate.
So Gender: Male/Female/Mantrans/Femtrans/Other?

The Other I assume would be the blank line where you can put whatever.
Title: Re: Bay12 Census 2015 -- Question committee!
Post by: Orange Wizard on April 23, 2015, 12:37:47 am
Aren't liberal economic views pro-regulation?
It was my opinion they weren't... at least here, decreasing regulations is called "liberalization of the economy" and the people who push it are called liberals. I thought "liberal economic views" means you're in favor of "liberating" economic agents from regulation. I may have been dreadfully wrong/region-specific here, so sorry.
Left-wing economics is pro-regulation, pro-taxes, etcetera; whereas right-wing economics is anti-regulation, anti-taxes, etcetera. It's backwards to social policy because reasons.

...

So Gender: Male/Female/Mantrans/Femtrans/Other?

The Other I assume would be the blank line where you can put whatever.
Something like that, yeah.
Title: Re: Bay12 Census 2015 -- Question committee!
Post by: mainiac on April 23, 2015, 02:04:27 am
"If you were at burger king, how much would you spend right now?"
Title: Re: Bay12 Census 2015 -- Question committee!
Post by: a1s on April 23, 2015, 02:20:16 am
Aren't liberal economic views pro-regulation?
"Liberal" means "more freedom" (implicitly it also means less order and/or security)
"Conservative" means "keep things the way they are now" ("If it's not broken- don't fix it")
This often gets coopted by various political groups, who like the names but don't really represent them.
f.e.:
If you want more security for the poor, you're not liberal (since freedom would be decreased,) nor are you conservative (since things would change) you're (in this one issue) socialist.
If you're a member of a new parliament and want to repeal a recent law limiting free (or, on the other hand "obscene") speech, you are both liberal (freedom) and conservative (technically "reactionary").
Title: Re: Bay12 Census 2015 -- Question committee!
Post by: Tack on April 23, 2015, 02:22:50 am
What is it they say? "The perfect society is one where all have the freedom to commit crime and the common sense not to".
Title: Re: Bay12 Census 2015 -- Question committee!
Post by: Orange Wizard on April 23, 2015, 03:53:15 am
What is it they say? "The perfect society is one where all have the freedom to commit crime and the common sense not to".
I always preferred "liberty is a precious resource - so precious that is must be carefully rationed."
Title: Re: Bay12 Census 2015 -- Question committee!
Post by: penguinofhonor on April 23, 2015, 07:37:39 am
.
Title: Re: Bay12 Census 2015 -- Question committee!
Post by: Orange Wizard on April 23, 2015, 05:58:43 pm
If people decide to troll with the blank box then their answer gets thrown out, like any other survey.
How do you tell the difference between trolling and not trolling?
Title: Re: Bay12 Census 2015 -- Question committee!
Post by: a1s on April 24, 2015, 03:10:50 am
If people decide to troll with the blank box then their answer gets thrown out, like any other survey.
How do you tell the difference between trolling and not trolling?
Ancient texts say that one of great spiritual purity and determination may develop a sixth sense in addition to the other five, which would allow one to see through trolling, marketing and political ads. As powerful as all the other senses combined, it is called the 萬事感 (YīqièGǎn literally "all sense"), usually rendered in English as "Common Sense".

So, yes, that requires you to read over 100 entries, but you can do that in under 5 minutes.
Title: Re: Bay12 Census 2015 -- Question committee!
Post by: Orange Wizard on April 24, 2015, 03:47:40 am
one of great spiritual purity
Yeah, better get someone other than me to do it.
Title: Re: Bay12 Census 2015 -- Question committee!
Post by: Avis-Mergulus on April 24, 2015, 05:35:26 am
Maybe it's better to just not count results with only one entry under "Other"? That way we probably won't have to sort out the Apache helicopter-kin out. Unless everybody decides to be Apache helicopter-kin just to troll me, in which case shame on you.
Title: Re: Bay12 Census 2015 -- Question committee!
Post by: penguinofhonor on April 24, 2015, 08:04:04 am
.
Title: Re: Bay12 Census 2015 -- Question committee!
Post by: Caz on April 24, 2015, 09:32:27 am
Height.

Just to see if a community based around dwarves is populated by dwarves. Also science.
Title: Re: Bay12 Census 2015 -- Question committee!
Post by: Flying Dice on April 24, 2015, 05:46:56 pm
Aren't liberal economic views pro-regulation?
No. "Liberal" only means "left wing" in that sense in the 'states. Classical liberalism espoused, among other things, free-market capitalism.

Basically there are too goddamn many ideological divides to fit into one question. Here's a suggestion:

Economic Ideology: Set it on a 5-point scale from Full Free Market to Full Government Control. The spectrum between market and command economies is basically that once you strip away the fluff, and it avoids the issues of people meaning different things with the same words.

Political Ideology: You probably can't base this one on a five-point scale as well, but give options something along the lines of: Anarchist, Marxist, Anarcho-Syndicalist, Leninist, Stalinist, Maoist, Republican, Direct Democrat, Federalist, Socialist, Democratic Socialist, Monarchist, Theocrat, Technocrat, Plutocrat, Fascist, Absolutist Authoritarian, Imperialist....

Yeah, that's why it's fucking impossible to make an accurate metric in that vein, even without the bleedover into economic ideology. Here's a couple simpler questions: Government should be: As small as possible, filling as few functions as possible <-> As large as necessary to fulfill as many functions as it can; Not at all active in social, cultural, and moral matters <-> As active as possible in social, cultural, and moral matters; Should not provide any aide to its citizens <-> Should provide as much aide as possible to its citizens.

Or something like that. Socio-economic-political ideologies are both absolutely fascinating and an immense pain to work with, for much the same reasons. If you were really going to do these issues in a meaningful way, it'd be a multipage survey just for this stuff.
Title: Re: Bay12 Census 2015 -- Question committee!
Post by: Orange Wizard on April 24, 2015, 05:50:35 pm
Quote
Here's a couple simpler questions: Government should be: As small as possible, filling as few functions as possible <-> As large as necessary to fulfill as many functions as it can; Not at all active in social, cultural, and moral matters <-> As active as possible in social, cultural, and moral matters; Should not provide any aide to its citizens <-> Should provide as much aide as possible to its citizens.
That's a very elegant solution, +1.
Title: Re: Bay12 Census 2015 -- Question committee!
Post by: penguinofhonor on April 24, 2015, 05:53:57 pm
.
Title: Re: Bay12 Census 2015 -- Question committee!
Post by: Orange Wizard on April 24, 2015, 06:02:43 pm
Because as we've covered, it's very hard to sort those into a readable format for 100+ answers.
Title: Re: Bay12 Census 2015 -- Question committee!
Post by: Skyrunner on April 27, 2015, 09:56:40 pm
Here's an initial draft of the questions. (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1f81tsuc1C_HdL0hDpmKQGY29NgYgeJQSaoPAOjRKcfg/edit?usp=sharing)

Haven't included the political one yet. Feedback on wording, options etc would be appreciated, and which possible secondary question for mental disorders would be preferred.
Title: Re: Bay12 Census 2015 -- Question committee!
Post by: a1s on April 28, 2015, 03:28:36 am
What is the meaning of 3, and how is it different from 4?
10 says drop down, but surely you need to be able to choose several options. Maybe some check-boxes?
In 19, I'm sure I'm just being lazy, but what's the difference between NEET and unemployed?
I'm in favor of 25, but then I always liked Bigger Data.
Title: Re: Bay12 Census 2015 -- Question committee!
Post by: Skyrunner on April 28, 2015, 03:47:53 am
Oh,  I forgot that you can't multiple choice in dropdowns while you can do that in a textbox using commas... I am not sure there is an elegant way to solve this problem =. =

19: Willfully unemployed and not lolooking for a job, as opposed to being unemployed because of something out of your circumstances. I might have to clarify that..
Title: Re: Bay12 Census 2015 -- Question committee!
Post by: karhell on April 28, 2015, 06:22:26 am
Maybe I misunderstood something, but 2 seems entirely redundant if 1 is a calendar select
Title: Re: Bay12 Census 2015 -- Question committee!
Post by: Tack on April 28, 2015, 08:01:27 am
NEET means Not Employed, Educated or Trained.
Which means that the only difference unemployed seems to have is that you're not being trained.


Also, there's no option on 19 for people who are employed?

Also rather than Sex/Gender probably stick with PenguinofHonor's Cis Male/Cis Female/Trans Male/Trans Female/Other list imo.
Title: Re: Bay12 Census 2015 -- Question committee!
Post by: Skyrunner on May 04, 2015, 02:56:19 am
Maybe I misunderstood something, but 2 seems entirely redundant if 1 is a calendar select
Very true--I don't know if Google Forms has a calendar select, though, so that's just in case.

Also, there's no option on 19 for people who are employed?

Also rather than Sex/Gender probably stick with PenguinofHonor's Cis Male/Cis Female/Trans Male/Trans Female/Other list imo.
I fixed 19 and combined sex/gender as PoH suggested.


So, if there's no other question ideas or things to edit, I'll create the form! Potentially by this weekend.
Title: Re: Bay12 Census 2015 -- Question committee!
Post by: Ghills on May 04, 2015, 07:24:52 am
Maybe I misunderstood something, but 2 seems entirely redundant if 1 is a calendar select
Very true--I don't know if Google Forms has a calendar select, though, so that's just in case.

Also, there's no option on 19 for people who are employed?

Also rather than Sex/Gender probably stick with PenguinofHonor's Cis Male/Cis Female/Trans Male/Trans Female/Other list imo.
I fixed 19 and combined sex/gender as PoH suggested.


So, if there's no other question ideas or things to edit, I'll create the form! Potentially by this weekend.

MAJOR edit needed.

Learning disabilities (ex, ADHD or Down Syndrome) are not mental disorders (ex, bipolar or schizophrenia).  They are very fundamentally different, and question 22 needs to be split into 2 questions at the very least.
Title: Re: Bay12 Census 2015 -- Question committee!
Post by: penguinofhonor on May 04, 2015, 07:49:28 am
.
Title: Re: Bay12 Census 2015 -- Question committee!
Post by: Zrk2 on May 04, 2015, 07:54:39 am

Ancient texts say that one of great spiritual purity and determination may develop a sixth sense in addition to the other five, which would allow one to see through trolling, marketing and political ads. As powerful as all the other senses combined, it is called the 萬事感 (YīqièGǎn literally "all sense"), usually rendered in English as "Common Sense".

Spoiler: Relevant (click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Bay12 Census 2015 -- Question committee!
Post by: Skyrunner on May 04, 2015, 08:37:52 am
MAJOR edit needed.

Learning disabilities (ex, ADHD or Down Syndrome) are not mental disorders (ex, bipolar or schizophrenia).  They are very fundamentally different, and question 22 needs to be split into 2 questions at the very least.
I strongly disagree, at least for ADHD. ADHD is one of the textbook mental disorders, in fact, and it fits pretty much every definition of a mental disorder you could think of. I did put ADHD as a separate entry from schizophrenia and mood disorders, and I think that is good enough. Can you convince me that ADHD is not an actual mental disorder and something else?

As for Down's syndrome... this might sound a bit callous but I doubt that anyone taking the survey has Down's syndrome. :/

Trans male and trans female are both included within male and female. The options should be "Cis male, cis female, trans male, trans female, other."

I thought that the "cis" is implied by the separate presence of "trans" male/female... would you disagree? If yes, why?



(Standard Internet disclaimer, I am not picking a fight with anyone but rather looking to discuss things!)
Title: Re: Bay12 Census 2015 -- Question committee!
Post by: Ghills on May 04, 2015, 08:50:30 am
MAJOR edit needed.

Learning disabilities (ex, ADHD or Down Syndrome) are not mental disorders (ex, bipolar or schizophrenia).  They are very fundamentally different, and question 22 needs to be split into 2 questions at the very least.
I strongly disagree, at least for ADHD. ADHD is one of the textbook mental disorders, in fact, and it fits pretty much every definition of a mental disorder you could think of. I did put ADHD as a separate entry from schizophrenia and mood disorders, and I think that is good enough. Can you convince me that ADHD is not an actual mental disorder and something else?

As for Down's syndrome... this might sound a bit callous but I doubt that anyone taking the survey has Down's syndrome. :/

(Standard Internet disclaimer, I am not picking a fight with anyone but rather looking to discuss things!)

Pro tip: If you're not looking to pick a fight, a good first step is to not insist on your point of view when someone else points out your ignorance. Being ignorant is not a problem, insisting on it is.

This stuff can get really personal for a lot of people who have to fight to be treated like human beings and not raving psychopaths.  If you think this is an exaggeration, I assure you it's not.  LD people get lumped in with the schizophrenics and bipolars way too often for either groups' comfort.  There's a long history of locking up anyone who was a bit different, regardless of whether they needed it, and also a long history of lumping all the 'crazies' together instead of identifying exact conditions and treating them. Both groups are pretty touchy about accuracy and respect, given all the horrible crap that has happened to them. 

There's a big gap between mental illnesses and learning disabilities.  It basically boils down to 'this group of conditions makes people irrational/hallucinate/etc' and 'this group of conditions makes people different', but also includes the mechanisms, the impact on reasoning, etc.  The only thing both groups of conditions have is the brain.

Mental disorder:  a mental or bodily condition marked primarily by sufficient disorganization of personality, mind, and emotions to seriously impair the normal psychological functioning of the individual—called also mental illness

Learning disability is a classification that includes several areas of functioning in which a person has difficulty learning in a typical manner, usually caused by an unknown factor or factors.

TL;DR  Learning disabilities describes a brain and personality that function in a healthy but nontypical way.  Mental disorder describes something going wrong in a way that causes irrationality.  To be politically incorrect about it, people do not like being called crazy simply because they are different, and people who suffer from mental illnesses would rather not get lumped in with retards, and both groups have good historical reasons for insisting on respect.
Title: Re: Bay12 Census 2015 -- Question committee!
Post by: 4maskwolf on May 04, 2015, 09:12:17 am
Meh.

I have ADHD and I consider it a mental disorder.  It doesn't bother me to hear people call it that.  It does bother me, however, when it is done in an obviously derrogatory way.  It really depends on whether it's being discussed from a clinical perspective as opposed to an obviously judgemental perspective.

Still, the change would be nice, just so that the unfotunate implications aren't there and don't insult people who DO find that offensive (I know a couple of people who would find that highly offensive who have ADHD).
Title: Re: Bay12 Census 2015 -- Question committee!
Post by: Skyrunner on May 04, 2015, 10:11:32 am
@Ghills:
From what I see, your arguments are that

1. "Mental disorder" is a stigmatizing word.
2. A mental disorder is different from a learning disability because mental disorders present "...irrational/hallucinate/etc..." as symptoms while learning disabilities are simply "this group of conditions makes people different". Additionally, a mental disorder is "a mental or bodily condition marked primarily by sufficient disorganization of personality, mind, and emotions to seriously impair the normal psychological functioning of the individual" while a learning disability is "a classification that includes several areas of functioning in which a person has difficulty learning in a typical manner, usually caused by an unknown factor or factors".

I agree with point 1--mental disorder tends to imply something is wrong. But that is not a bad thing; most people with a mental disorder agree that they deviate from the norm. Whether that is something that should be fixed depends on person to person. Someone with mild Asperger's symptom would not think that they need medication, while someone with severe anything definitely would.

As for point two... I believe that your first set of definitions are backwards. The first definition describes a small set of disorders (schizophrenia, psycotic people, etc), while the second definition pretty much includes every single mental disorder, or even disease, known to mankind. One could argue that people with schizophrenia are simply more paranoid than people without, and that makes them different. A person with binge eating disorder merely has a different eating habit.

The second definitions seem much more typical.


Let's look at the DSM's foreword on mental disorders:

Quote
Despite these caveats, the definition of mental disorder that was included in DSM-III and DSM-III-R is presented here because it is as useful as any other available definition and has helped to guide decisions regarding which conditions on the boundary between normality and pathology should be included in DSM-IV. In DSM-IV, each of the mental disorders is conceptualized as a clinically significant behavioral or psychological syndrome or pattern that occurs in an individual and that is associated with present distress (e.g., a painful symptom) or disability (i.e., impairment in one or more important areas of functioning) or with a significantly increased risk of suffering death, pain, disability, or an important loss of freedom. In addition, this syndrome or pattern must not be merely an expectable and culturally sanctioned response to a particular event, for example, the death of a loved one. Whatever its original cause, it must currently be considered a manifestation of a behavioral, psychological, or biological dysfunction in the individual. Neither deviant behavior (e.g., political, religious, or sexual) nor conflicts that are primarily between the individual and society are mental disorders unless the deviance or conflict is a symptom of a dysfunction in the individual, as described above.

Emphasis added. The definition of a mental disorder that I am using is in accord with that of the DSM's. ADHD seems to fall square into the definition! It is a significant syndrome, with symptoms of attention deficit, that occurs in an individual, impairs their ability to function normally (in the case of ADHD, to concentrate on a single task), and presumably causes distress, too, as compared to their peers people with ADHD tend to fall behind on academic prowess.

Do you think that my (and DSM's) definition of mental disorder do not include ADHD?


[this part is not actually related to the debate about survey questions]

Quote
Pro tip: If you're not looking to pick a fight, a good first step is to not insist on your point of view when someone else points out your ignorance. Being ignorant is not a problem, insisting on it is.

But... I'm just stating my opinion. How is that picking a fight?

Quote
I strongly disagree, at least for ADHD. ADHD is one of the textbook mental disorders, in fact, and it fits pretty much every definition of a mental disorder you could think of. I did put ADHD as a separate entry from schizophrenia and mood disorders, and I think that is good enough. Can you convince me that ADHD is not an actual mental disorder and something else?

I can't really see where I'm insisting on my point of view. I am just saying that I disagree, with an implied "please inform me otherwise." Besides, you classify my viewpoint as ignorance, and even go so far to chastise me for not immediately and unquestioningly accepting your superior viewpoint, then call me ignorant again. Not only is that insulting, it also makes it seem that you are the one that is picking a fight. Besides, there's always the possibility that your viewpoint is not entirely correct. Also, I can't help but feel that you are being defensive. Did you get put on edge by my repeated use of the words "mental disorder?" :v

Finally, you are calling schizophrenic and bipolar people "raving psychopaths" and "crazies". Have you considered that maybe people that are schizophrenic don't want to be seen as raving psychopaths, and that people with bipolar disorder don't want to be called a "crazy" simply because their mood patterns are different to the average, neurotypical person? Maybe they've struggled for many many years trying to get rid of the stereotype that people with schizophrenia are unapologetic raving psychopaths, just like ADHD people have. I think you are being hypocritical by not wanting ADHD to be lumped with other disorders because ADHD!=craziness, then disparaging other mental disorders as being crazy.

One last thing: I have never grouped ADHD with "retards" and "raving psychopaths." Hell, I've been even more politically correct than the DSM has been by not grouping attention-deficit disorder into "Disorders usually first diagnosed in infancy, childhood, or adolescence," where number 1 is literally "mental retardation" and number 2 is "learning disorders" including ADHD. In the survey, attention-deficit disorder is its own option for both the expansive and simplified versions, and so is schizophrenia and bipolar disease. I can't help but feel that you're making a mountain out of a perceived insult molehill here.



edit: I've been notified that ADHD is not a learning disorder and is actually separately classified under "attention deficit disorders". This probably does not invalidate any of my points, but the reader beware.
Title: Re: Bay12 Census 2015 -- Question committee!
Post by: TempAcc on May 04, 2015, 10:30:39 am
Maybe I misunderstood something, but 2 seems entirely redundant if 1 is a calendar select
Very true--I don't know if Google Forms has a calendar select, though, so that's just in case.

Also, there's no option on 19 for people who are employed?

Also rather than Sex/Gender probably stick with PenguinofHonor's Cis Male/Cis Female/Trans Male/Trans Female/Other list imo.
I fixed 19 and combined sex/gender as PoH suggested.


So, if there's no other question ideas or things to edit, I'll create the form! Potentially by this weekend.

MAJOR edit needed.

Learning disabilities (ex, ADHD or Down Syndrome) are not mental disorders (ex, bipolar or schizophrenia).  They are very fundamentally different, and question 22 needs to be split into 2 questions at the very least.

I thought Downs Syndrome was a genetic disorder :v
Title: Re: Bay12 Census 2015 -- Question committee!
Post by: Orange Wizard on May 04, 2015, 04:02:54 pm
Why don't we just use the word "disability" and be done with it? It's not exactly ambiguous.

And if people start getting offended by that, then we're drifting into the realm of needless pandering.
Title: Re: Bay12 Census 2015 -- Question committee!
Post by: Ghills on May 04, 2015, 10:03:48 pm
@Ghills:
From what I see, your arguments are that
WALL OF TEXT

Since you've got the DSM, you can look up what it says about learning disabilities. It pretty clearly differentiates them from mental disorders afaik. http://www.ldworldwide.org/educators/strategies-for-successful-learning/1106-warm-demander-pedagogy-reaching-students-through-care-and-insistence lays it out my understanding pretty well.  Mental disorders are specific subset.

I did warn that I was going to be politically incorrect for that sentence, didn't I? :)  I meant that. It does accurately reflect the beliefs of a significant section of the population (or at least, a significant section of the population that I have encountered, including those in official positions), and was included to demonstrate why lumping multiple groups of conditions together is extremely problematic.

As for the mountain/molehill bit - no, I'm not.  That was the point of the history lesson.  There has been far too much lumping of various disorders together, which caused untold havoc in people's lives, delayed proper research and basically made everything worse for people with both learning disabilities and mental illnesses.  If you're going to do a survey, do it right. That includes paying attention to the history and common usage of the words used in the survey questions.   

What is this question really aimed at?  Do you want to do a survey of the mental health of the Bay12 community, are you interested in comparing official diagnoses vs likely missed diagnoses, something else?

We're probably having the classic 'tone doesn't translate through the Internet' problem.
Title: Re: Bay12 Census 2015 -- Question committee!
Post by: Ghills on May 04, 2015, 10:05:34 pm
Why don't we just use the word "disability" and be done with it? It's not exactly ambiguous.

And if people start getting offended by that, then we're drifting into the realm of needless pandering.

How about "Have you ever been diagnosed with a condition for which psychiatric or psychological treatment is typically recommended?"  That covers all cases afaik and avoids classifying people.
Title: Re: Bay12 Census 2015 -- Question committee!
Post by: Ghills on May 04, 2015, 10:12:24 pm

I thought Downs Syndrome was a genetic disorder :v

Both learning disabilities and mental illnesses can be caused by genetics, just like any other medical condition.  The first few terms are basically descriptors that classify conditions by how the symptoms present and impact the patient's life. 'Genetic condition' is how the condition came about, or the source of the condition.

It's like describing a car as red and made in Mexico.  One term (red) describes the car as it is, the other (from Mexico) states where the car came from.  In the same way, conditions can be both genetic and a learning disability (ex, autism, Down syndrome).

TL;DR  Problems involving brains are complex. :)
Title: Re: Bay12 Census 2015 -- Question committee!
Post by: Orange Wizard on May 05, 2015, 12:34:03 am
How about "Have you ever been diagnosed with a condition for which psychiatric or psychological treatment is typically recommended?"  That covers all cases afaik and avoids classifying people.
But that's really long-winded. And why is classifying people a problem, anyway? Isn't that literally the point of a census/survey, seeing what categories people fall in to?

Also, triplepost much. :P
Title: Re: Bay12 Census 2015 -- Question committee!
Post by: Tack on May 05, 2015, 11:35:24 am
The humble forward slash would fix all these problems.

Mental/Intellectual Disorder.
Bing.

Although geezus people are making a massive effort to make this questionnaire really PC.
Like, overly pandering.
Because I'm not actually spearheading this thing I thankfully have the freedom to say; it sucks. Stop it.
Title: Re: Bay12 Census 2015 -- Question committee!
Post by: Parsely on May 05, 2015, 12:32:39 pm
When will this year's census start?
Title: Re: Bay12 Census 2015 -- Question committee!
Post by: penguinofhonor on May 05, 2015, 01:44:47 pm
.
Title: Re: Bay12 Census 2015 -- Question committee!
Post by: a1s on May 05, 2015, 02:28:39 pm
I also don't think the implication will necessarily come across, as there are plenty of people who still think transgender means neither male nor female, and they'll take it at face value.
That's because it does. Societal gender isn't nearly binary, and even physical sex isn't binary (through either nature and a liberal application of human craftsmanship). It looks like you want those people to be "other" (no comment), but there's no guarantee they'll take it that way.
Title: Re: Bay12 Census 2015 -- Question committee!
Post by: penguinofhonor on May 05, 2015, 02:39:30 pm
.
Title: Re: Bay12 Census 2015 -- Question committee!
Post by: a1s on May 05, 2015, 02:44:17 pm
[REDACTED]
You know what? I said I was sorry to be a bitch, and that was lie. So why don't I just shut up? You win this argument.
Title: Re: Bay12 Census 2015 -- Question committee!
Post by: Orange Wizard on May 05, 2015, 03:53:23 pm
Let's not let this devolve into another gender argument bullshit thread. Please.
Title: Re: Bay12 Census 2015 -- Question committee!
Post by: gigaraptor487 on May 05, 2015, 04:08:31 pm
Maybe add weight as well as height, get a BMI up in there :)

Also, maybe wages per week in dollars, although I am not sure whether everyone would be comfortable sharing that data we could learn a lot about the economic circumstance of the average bay12 users.
Title: Re: Bay12 Census 2015 -- Question committee!
Post by: Teneb on May 05, 2015, 04:56:57 pm
Maybe add weight as well as height, get a BMI up in there :)

Also, maybe wages per week in dollars, although I am not sure whether everyone would be comfortable sharing that data we could learn a lot about the economic circumstance of the average bay12 users.
The problem with wages/week in dollars is that conversion rates fluctuate constantly. So unless the value is already in dollars or the conversion rate at the time the information was submitted is included, it could lead to a few problems.
Title: Re: Bay12 Census 2015 -- Question committee!
Post by: Zrk2 on May 05, 2015, 06:34:09 pm
Let's not let this devolve into another gender argument bullshit thread. Please.

THIS. PLEASE.

Maybe add weight as well as height, get a BMI up in there :)

Also, maybe wages per week in dollars, although I am not sure whether everyone would be comfortable sharing that data we could learn a lot about the economic circumstance of the average bay12 users.
The problem with wages/week in dollars is that conversion rates fluctuate constantly. So unless the value is already in dollars or the conversion rate at the time the information was submitted is included, it could lead to a few problems.

Just do a conversion into CPI adjust American dollars?
Title: Re: Bay12 Census 2015 -- Question committee!
Post by: Skyrunner on May 06, 2015, 03:18:24 am
As a compromise, I edited q16 to read:

Q. What is your gender?
A. (cis) male, (cis) female, trans male, trans female, other

other will potentially be a text box if I can make google forms do that.

As for the mental disorder question, I believe that

Quote
a condition for which psychiatric or psychological treatment is typically recommended

is, in short, a mental disorder. :P

I've added weight because BMI is interesting!

I've added the wage question as simply dollars per month. Even if conversion rates fluctuate and even though not everyone lives in a nation where the market prices are similar, the last survey showed that the vast majority of Bay12 users live in the United States or Canada. Since I know what the question asker's nationality is, if needed I could adjust for actual purchasing power, etc.

Another reminder that the survey will be finalized Saturday KST!
Title: Re: Bay12 Census 2015 -- Question committee!
Post by: Antsan on May 06, 2015, 04:02:48 am
Will there be a link here? It's easier to just keep watching this thread instead of trying to remember to look for another one on Saturday.
Title: Re: Bay12 Census 2015 -- Question committee!
Post by: Skyrunner on May 06, 2015, 04:23:35 am
Sure :)

relink of the question sheet (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1f81tsuc1C_HdL0hDpmKQGY29NgYgeJQSaoPAOjRKcfg/edit?usp=sharing), too, since it's buried a few pages back.
Title: Re: Bay12 Census 2015 -- Question committee!
Post by: SirQuiamus on May 06, 2015, 04:38:01 am
Does the "neither" option in q30 imply "no preference, regardless of like or dislike" or "impartial hatred of all filthy fuzzballs"?

If it's the latter, I am cry. ;~;
Title: Re: Bay12 Census 2015 -- Question committee!
Post by: Skyrunner on May 06, 2015, 05:17:48 am
IMPARTIAL HATRED OF ALL FUZZBALLS

I changed it to "like both" and "dislike both"
Title: Re: Bay12 Census 2015 -- Question committee!
Post by: Arx on May 06, 2015, 12:35:11 pm
For the religion question, consider looking at OW's poll in the religion thread. I think it pretty comprehensively covers the options, and there are a handful that you don't have there.
Title: Re: Bay12 Census 2015 -- Question committee!
Post by: penguinofhonor on May 06, 2015, 01:13:27 pm
.
Title: Re: Bay12 Census 2015 -- Question committee!
Post by: Arx on May 06, 2015, 01:17:19 pm
The mushrooms are extremely important, yes.

But really, it's the things like wicca and animism.
Title: Re: Bay12 Census 2015 -- Question committee!
Post by: Owlbread on May 06, 2015, 01:31:34 pm
Maybe a question on learning difficulties/disabilities might be a good idea. You know, dyslexia, ADHD, ADD and so on. As a person with a learning difficulty I don't mind which term you use (in my case it's more of a difficulty than a disability), but I don't know if anyone here feels strongly about it though so it may be wise to put it to public debate.
Title: Re: Bay12 Census 2015 -- Question committee!
Post by: flame99 on May 06, 2015, 01:31:45 pm
PtW, and take the survey when it's finished.
Title: Re: Bay12 Census 2015 -- Question committee!
Post by: Skyrunner on May 08, 2015, 10:35:11 am
Survey live (http://goo.gl/forms/xYa2GXNfBv)!
Title: Re: Bay12 Census 2015 -- Question committee!
Post by: a1s on May 08, 2015, 10:50:08 am
The language question is hard to answer because it's a long and unordered list. Please (if possible) arrange it alphabetcially.
Title: Re: Bay12 Census 2015 -- Question committee!
Post by: Skyrunner on May 08, 2015, 11:00:52 am
I've hot-fixed the language question to be sorted by number of speakers. I've also cleaned it up, because my original source included several obscure languages over less obscure ones, plus a couple continents, too.
Title: Re: Bay12 Census 2015 -- Question committee!
Post by: Orange Wizard on May 08, 2015, 03:32:48 pm
Fantastic. Might want to rename the thread title to something about the survey being up, too.
Title: Re: Bay12 Census 2015 -- Question committee!
Post by: Avis-Mergulus on May 08, 2015, 05:57:22 pm
Fantastic. Might want to rename the thread title to something about the survey being up, too.
Yeah, and put the link into the OP, too.
Title: Re: Bay12 Census 2015 -- Question committee, survey now live
Post by: hops on May 08, 2015, 10:15:40 pm
PTW