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Dwarf Fortress => DF Dwarf Mode Discussion => Topic started by: Cheedows on May 14, 2015, 10:21:34 pm

Title: New way to train armour user...?
Post by: Cheedows on May 14, 2015, 10:21:34 pm
As I know, armour user is used to make dwarves move faster while wearing armour, very useful for dwarves in full steel for example. It is trained primarily through the dwarf letting his armour absorb the hit, which begins to become problematic for elite dwarves who can parry and block most attacks through sparring or live combat with ease. After seeing Skullsploder's ingenious barrack design in the Ultimate Melee Dwarves thread, which involved the dwarf falling down 2 z levels when they dodged during sparring, so the impact itself would give some armour user skill. I applied this to my current fort, and it was worked decently well although it delayed sparring a bit it didn't matter since they were already at the peak of their ability in most other skills (Axedwarf, Shield User). For fun, I decided to just give them each 2 master work wooden shields to perhaps train misc object user on the way (useless in fort mode usually, but I thought it would help their shield bash when they are in live combat). Now, I forgot about this and believed them to be having a master work steel battle axe, so regularly sent them to kill an isolated human soldier, which is where it gets weird. As expected, once the human was subdued I checked the reports and they were hilariously bashing him in the head with their wooden shields, which was deflected by his bronze helm. But during this, they were actively gaining armour user at a hugely rapid rate, going from Great to Master in mere minutes of  bashing him in the head with wooden shields. They are gaining armour user skill as I speak. Is this common knowledge? When I searched up dual wielding shields on the forums, I didn't get anything mentioning this.

Edit: Both my axe lords are legendary armour user right now, from great armour user. They are gaining quite literally hundreds of EXP from just bashing the human with their shield, almost as fast as Danger Room gaining speeds.

Picture of the report for clarity:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Title: Re: New way to train armour user...?
Post by: Skullsploder on May 14, 2015, 11:13:30 pm
This is completely new to me. When i get a chance I'll test it for sure. I'll sic a dwarf on some of the captured wildlife.
Title: Re: New way to train armour user...?
Post by: Cheedows on May 14, 2015, 11:19:05 pm
It should work fine on any wildlife, just need thick enough skulls to deflect the wooden shields. I posted a picture for clarity, although the reports go beyond 29 pages but it just resets itself after a bit.
Title: Re: New way to train armour user...?
Post by: Putnam on May 15, 2015, 02:58:30 am
Quote from: Cheedows on May 14, 2015, 11:19:05 pm
It should work fine on any wildlife, just need thick enough skulls to deflect the wooden shields.

Or you could get a hedgehog, echidna or armadillo to fight, since they curl up and make their upper bodies the only target. Seriously, I couldn't get saiyans to reliably kill them, and saiyans are easily the strongest blunt-only modded creature in existence (due to some DFHack silliness that, in short, makes the very weakest possible super saiyan's every attack 50x as strong as the very strongest possible attack by a non-hacked creature).
Title: Re: New way to train armour user...?
Post by: Max™ on May 15, 2015, 05:39:13 am
Hmmm, I wonder how many tiles away I'd have to aim a throw to make an echidna blow up... gonna have to test that next time I find one, I usually run because of them spamming the "rolls up/unrolls/rolls up/unrolls" a billion times.
Title: Re: New way to train armour user...?
Post by: Cheedows on May 15, 2015, 10:10:46 am
Just an update, they have become legendary armour users. They could've kept on going but the maceman woke up which prompted my axelords to punch him in the head which did kill him. I'l try it on another isolated axeman and see if the increases still happen.

Edit: Could not find an isolated maceman, but it seems even the act of sparring raises armour user marginally, with dual wielded shields. So simply striking with a shield increases armour user?
Title: Re: New way to train armour user...?
Post by: Skullsploder on May 16, 2015, 03:04:51 am
Quote from: Cheedows on May 15, 2015, 10:10:46 am
So simply striking with a shield increases armour user?

That's what I first assumed was happening here. Any chance you could initiate dual shield combat, pause, check armour user xp, then advance one step so that we can see how much xp they gain per hit? I am nowhere near my DF laptop at the moment.

This would be great for those trying to get civilians to wear armour properly (i.e. me), since by the sound of it one could just give them all dual shields and have them beat on a giant echidna or something for a season, and thereafter they'd walk normal pace in full steel.
Title: Re: New way to train armour user...?
Post by: Cheedows on May 16, 2015, 11:51:26 pm
I was unfortunately busy for the entire day and will be tomorrow, but on Monday I'l look into this more.
Title: Re: New way to train armour user...?
Post by: Cheedows on May 19, 2015, 05:19:38 pm
Well I'm a bit late, and yes this is a double post but just a minor bump. I tested this out in arena mode, and simply jumping around in armour as a dabbler gets you armour user skill. I will see where it caps off then assume control and land a single shield strike and see what happens.

Edit: After taking control of a dwarf and slapping an echidna wearing mail so it is deflected, you gain 2 armour user at talented with every shield strike. Will test on exposed skin to see if the deflection reduces armour gain.

Second Edit: Yep, 2 skill regardless if it hits the exposed echidna. The dwarf is wearing one iron mail shirt, maybe increasing his armour worn increases skill gain?

Third Edit: Giving him a helm, breastplate, greaves increased skill gain to 3.
Title: Re: New way to train armour user...?
Post by: Ravendarksky on May 20, 2015, 06:04:16 am
I'm very interested in this. I've been trying to come up good ways to train armour user without resorting to danger rooms.
Title: Re: New way to train armour user...?
Post by: Insert_Gnome_Here on May 20, 2015, 07:37:17 am
Any data on sffect of armour material?
Title: Re: New way to train armour user...?
Post by: Skullsploder on May 20, 2015, 11:44:38 am
Please do combinations of the following:

No skill in armour user
Max skill in armour user
No skill in misc. object user
Max skill in misc. object user
No armour but shields
Max armour (3 mail shirts, 6 cloaks, 6 hoods, mittens, breasplate, greaves, high boots, gauntlets, mittens, helm)

If you have the time of course :) I don't because I'm procrastinating on studying right now.

Your previous test already told us that increasing worn armour increases skill gain, but it's worth seeing if increasing the amount of armour increases skill gain as well, and also if it will stop having an effect at legendary levels. Also, you should try spamming shields on the test dorf because IIRC dwarves can equip an arbitrary amount of shields if you're lucky.
Title: Re: New way to train armour user...?
Post by: Cheedows on May 20, 2015, 07:01:42 pm
Sorry all, was busy today. I'l hit the object tester tomorrow, and do the combinations Skullsploder listed.
Title: Re: New way to train armour user...?
Post by: Cheedows on May 21, 2015, 05:25:43 pm
Starting testing. Will periodically edit in updates of my findings. So far it appears dwarves in object testing arena can't equip multiple shields even if I spawn them with 4.

Test 1: No Armour User, Max Armour, No Misc
Results:
Each hit still gives 3 armour user xp
Misc Object xp varied from 10 and over skill gain
Curiously, the Misc Object xp gain stops once they are on the ground and all hits are simple direct hits.

Test 2: Max Armour User (Grand Master due to object arena cap), Max Armour, No Misc
Results:
Each hit still gives 3 armour user xp
Misc Object xp gave 10 xp each hit

Test 3: No Armour User, Max Armour, Max Misc (Grand Master)
Results:
Each hit still gives 3 armour user xp
Misc Object xp gives 10 xp each hit

Test 4: Max Armour User, Max Armour, Max Misc
Results:
Each hit still gives 3 armour user xp
Misc Object xp gives 15 xp per hit
Now that's interesting...

Should be worth noting any gains for misc object user were the exact same for fighter. Even when no gains were had when the echidna was on the ground opened up for simple direct hits.
Title: Re: New way to train armour user...?
Post by: Eldin00 on June 03, 2015, 11:57:20 pm
I did a bit of testing of this phenomenon over the last couple of days, and my findings are generally compatible with those of Cheedows. In arena/adventure mode, striking with a shield gives 0-3xp in armor user. You get 0 if you aren't wearing any armor (items with the ARMORLEVEL token). Otherwise, the number of xp you get is determined by the details of the armor you're wearing. I haven't tested every armor item individually, but from the ones I did test by themselves, it seems like if you're wearing only one piece of armor, the xp gained in armor user might be equal to that piece's ARMORLEVEL, but anytime I tested a dwarf with at least 2 metal armor pieces, they got 3xp in armor user per shield strike. The number of equipped shields, and the type or state of the opponent, didn't appear to have any effect whatsoever on armor user gains.