I'd consider doing this to start in Mafia... but I can't trust that it won't take beyond about two weeks or so, which would be bad for me.It might. Mafia games can take quite some time.
I'd consider doing this to start in Mafia... but I can't trust that it won't take beyond about two weeks or so, which would be bad for me.Forum Mafia games around here are typically a couple of weeks on the really short side (like a vengeful game) to over a month. Looking at the last few Beginner's games they seem to range around 3+ weeks.
We have 6/9 as H4zard went replacement instead.Thanks for the heads up.
IC inI doubt it will start until then.
Just be warned, I won't have full time to play until late tomorrow.
I have to go out because i won't have access to the internet 8/7 through 8/11Even though it seems we'll be waiting for a bit, I think that by august the game will be over. I will still remove you, but maybe think about it.
Wow, this has been in sign-up for a month. Okay, I'll jump in as an IC.Sounds good to me.
Can I still get in?Not unless you have several game's worth of Mafia experience or something. And still probably not even then.
Can I still get in?You got in just a bit late (final slot, a teaching position, just filled). You can sign up to replace in if necessary, though, or hope someone drops out.
Hazard, who's opening IC post did you like the most?... This isn't a competition, and that does nothing to help the game.
Loud Whispers, were you disappointed with your role at all?Say it with me, kids. ROLEFISHING!
4mask, what do you think about town lying?In this setup? Almost always bad. Are you trying to bait me into going on a pages-long rant?
nqt you are seeming more and more scummyDo explain, Urist. Logic and reasoning are the bread and butter of mafia games.
Hmm I'm not very angry yet, you won't like me when I'm angry also I could also argue that you are scum because you are aggressive and are accusing me because I didn't accuse someone.I'm going to quote this bit so if you edit it again for some reason we'll know easier. I didn't notice the first time you did it.
Also the active lurking is because I leave my browser open when i do stuff.
Hmm I'm not very angry yet, you won't like me when I'm angry also I could also argue that you are scum because you are aggressive and are accusing me because I didn't accuse someone.Please do not edit your posts.
Also the active lurking is because I leave my browser open when i do stuff.
Graknorke, you're scum and you think you know who the jailor and the cop are. Who do you kill first and why?Would there be any reason to not pick the jailor? This isn't a snarky dismissive answer either, that seems like a bit of a non-question to me.
you won't like me when I'm angry
Look. If I was scum, I wouldn't be dumb enough to directly attack an IC(or if I was the other scum would likely advise against it).WIFOM much
Fifth up, if you'll read the op you'll notice that IC players have the same chance of being scum as any other. Some past games have even had both ICs be scum. Bad luck, those.Aye, but NQT was really just doing IC things. Asking lots of questions to try and prompt people to discuss things. It's hardly suspicious in itself.
Second up: I'm telling people to vote NQT because I think he's scum. I don't think that telling other people who to vote for is a bad thing. This isn't a game where votes can be forced onto people with role abilities. Make your own choices, just note that I want you to vote for NQT.You can't just say to vote for someone though. You need to actually reason it out. Your evidence is flimsy and everything after it looks to be trying to quickly drum up support for your proposal before anyone really critically thinks about it.
Fourth up: oi you, perhaps defending your scum partner? You've given me something to think about.If we're looking at scum teams, you jumped on Urist McCoder's vote pretty quickly, and since you began piling on NQT he's agreed with everything you've said as well. At least, up until right now where there's a chance of you coming under scrutiny. Coincidence? Probably not. I feel like one of you is a disgrace to Luchadore-kind, and right now you're looking like the more dangerous of the two with your attempts at quickly dictating a common consensus.
Of course not, it's just an error.Corrected.
While I'm at it, Graknorke, I'm going to recommend that you vote for NQT(notquitethere) and later hiddenleafguy as a result of evidence posted by me and Urist McCoder.You said "as a result of evidence posted", but the actual evidence was... negligible. I read this as you just trying to brush off any real analysis and just getting people to jump into a blind lynching of someone of your choosing for nearly no reason, yet with you seeming absolutely certain of it. But now you're going to stop trying to press for questioning at all? That comes across as some overcompensating damage control.
But since I'm me, I know I'm town and thus a Urist McCoder and me scum team is impossible.Do you realize how suspicious you're looking right now? You've been bringing up "I'm town" every ten seconds. That's not going to convince any of us that it's true, but you're acting like it's cold, hard, logical proof that you wouldn't do anything like this.
If I didn't back up, would you call that scummy alsoYou can hunt without insisting that someone is definitely scum and urging everyone else to vote with them, despite a distinct lack of evidence. Your supposed scum team has made 3 posts between them, and none since you accused them of being such.
Would there be any reason to not pick the jailor? This isn't a snarky dismissive answer either, that seems like a bit of a non-question to me.Ah that's interesting. My intuition would be to kill the cop as they can get definite inspects every night, whereas although it's disruptive, the jailor has to interpret their results. My honest response would be to work out who the cop is most likely to inspect and the jailor jail and based on those guesses try and work out who would do the most damage if left alive (which might depend on how competent the jailor and cop were etc.).
So, a question for Everyone, what experience have you had with (forum or otherwise) Mafia before now?Digging holes is a good thing to avoid. Self awareness and a willingness to calmly and clearly explain yourself will get you a long way in not getting yourself mislynched. I've probably played a few dozen mafia or mafia-like games. Been playing here at Bay12 for about two and half years now.
Myself, I've been in one BM before, 45. I feel that the experience taught me a lot about holes, digging, and when to stop. Also that 4mask is terrifyingly focused if he sets his sights on you.
yes this is my first game, and I am so excited to play. nqt why are you so eager to vote?I like to vote right from the off. There are two main schools of thought on using the vote: some people use it to pressure people, others reserve it for when they're certain about who they want to definitely lynch that day. I am proponent of the first school. Why are you so eager to vote me for being eager to vote?
nqt you are seeming more and more scummyThis is pretty funny as I hadn't posted since you'd last responded, but to address your reasoning:
Then as you pointed out he asked tons of pointless questions. and in my opinion most importantly, he asked everyone except for Tawarochir a question. The only reason I can think of for him skipping Tawarochir, is if they are scumbudies.Each of the questions had a point. I omitted Tawa on purpose to see who was paying attention.
if you are right about NQT and hiddenleafguy it would be a brilliant move on NQT part to immediately voted for hiddenleafguy. so that later on in the game he could reference that in his defense if someone said that he and hiddenleafguy are the scumteam.Haha! Yeah scum teams often do this cute thing where they vote for one another on D1. Scum don't usually try and earnestly get their partners lynched on the first day though. When weighing up a vote-as-an-alibi, look for how likely it was that that vote was actually trying to get someone killed.
Not at all good sir nqt, not at all!This is pretty much the only correct answer. Good job.
... This isn't a competition, and that does nothing to help the game.Hah, no I didn't mean in a competitive sense. I was curious what advice resonated most with him (which is game relevant).
Yes, there are two roles that seven of us are fishing for.QuoteLoud Whispers, were you disappointed with your role at all?Say it with me, kids. ROLEFISHING!
In this setup? Almost always bad. Are you trying to bait me into going on a pages-long rant?I'm not trying to bait any rant out of you (as I'm not sure that would be alignment indicative). My experience in the championship has taught me that there can be big gains from town fake-claiming in a vanilla set-up like this.
I'll ask questions later, I'm busy.I'll hold you to this.
On the other hand... He hasn't asked me a question either. Perhaps he's using his experience to frame Tawarochir and me as a scum team. Ouch.In mafia we have a phrase we use for this kind of reasoning. It's called WIFOM, or Wine-In-Front-Of-Me.* It refers to a scene from The Princess Bride (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z9TRMQwMNnY) where someone reasons fallaciously from insufficient premises. There are many reasons I might have omitted you and Tawa. The real reason is that I did it as a test. The ideal post induces an informative reaction. This is a form of scum hunting. I'm glad you noticed I didn't address you.
Aw dang. Oops, I did a scumtell(taking the third vote for a player). Blast.Arguably it's a worse tell to show reticence to vote with your convictions and changing you behaviour overly to avoid conforming to standard tells.
Should I keep my vote on nqt or move it to hlg?Why are you asking other players for permission here?
Okay, notquitethere, start talking before we lynch your head off. Notquitethere, please respond.Hold your horses. It's only been three hours since I last posted.
Okay everybody, NQT and hiddenleafguy are the scum team. Or at least I believe they are.I can 100% assure you that you are wrong.
(Er... how can I put more pressure on NQT? The only things I can do to him are posting and voting, and more posts might serve the opposite purpose of what I intend. And my vote's already on him.)I suggest when I've posted a bit more, looking to see if my future posts back up your theory and if they do then you should clearly explain how. That would put more pressure on.
You know what... I've realized that voting for hiddenleafguy may be the best way to put pressure on NQT. Let's call his bluff.I'm so glad I joined this game, this is hilarious. I didn't even realise I was bluffing!
Yes, I... never mind. Hunting without dense amounts of evidence doesn't seem to be working. Unvote hiddenleafguy.We can only go with what evidence we have available. At the end of the day town need to be sure they're voting the scummiest player.
Notquitethere: what do you think of the posting of me and Urist McCoder thus far?You've been jumping around with incredibly wild theories. Scum tend to be a bit more reserved so weirdly it speaks well for you. I'll have a better idea as the day goes on. McCoder has been paying a bit of attention but their attack has been a bit weak. I've got no strong conclusions yet.
Right now I feel like notquitehere is the most likely scum, due to the fact that he came out of the gate really strongly, but then posted almost nothing else. Which I feel like is really weird.For the record, I had plans between 7PM and 11PM NQT-time (and it took me a little while to write that post). Only start worrying if someone doesn't post for 24 hours+ or only posts minimal content or doesn't seem to have any grasp on how the game is going.
I am not really sure what to say. I have not added much because no one has asked me anything, please ask me anything.Hm. Hm hm hm. I'm going to hope that we've got a town cop to work with. That inspection is the weapon I want to have. Unbreakable proof that someone is one alignment or the other. Pity I don't have it, so I've got to hunt the old-fashioned way.
The reason I don't think fallacyofurist is mafia is because none of his defenses seem to be about preventing us from lynching him. Instead his only goal seems to be lynching scum. Which as far as I know is not at all how scum plays.
Right now I feel like notquitehere is the most likely scum, due to the fact that he came out of the gate really strongly, but then posted almost nothing else. Which I feel like is really weird.
TawaPossibly. It seems quite suspect, but I won't abandon the possibility that Fallacy is simply a confused townie stumbling over clumsy attempts to put theory into practice.
Do you think Fallacy's wild play is alignment-indicative?
Instead his only goal seems to be lynching scum. Which as far as I know is not at all how scum plays.It's valid, at the very least. Framing townies is a good way to rack up kills, as long as you think you can avoid suspicion after the townie's alignment has been exposed.
It's valid, at the very least. Framing townies is a good way to rack up kills, as long as you think you can avoid suspicion after the townie's alignment has been exposed.I do not understand what point you are trying to make, could you please elaborate?
Confused? Yeah, you could say that.TawaPossibly. It seems quite suspect, but I won't abandon the possibility that Fallacy is simply a confused townie stumbling over clumsy attempts to put theory into practice.
Do you think Fallacy's wild play is alignment-indicative?Instead his only goal seems to be lynching scum. Which as far as I know is not at all how scum plays.It's valid, at the very least. Framing townies is a good way to rack up kills, as long as you think you can avoid suspicion after the townie's alignment has been exposed.
Notquitethere, why aren't you hunting scum in addition to defending yourself?This is actually a very good question. The simple answer was I had several pages worth of responses to answer and so I wanted to do that first, though you will note that my responses were not entirely devoid of questions. The more complex answer is that a lot of my substantive scum-hunting is done towards the end of each day when I look over how everyone's been interacting. We haven't reached that point yet.
My aim in the game is to find all of those scummy wrestler mafia members and lynch them, also to have fun and ya know not get murdered in the middle of the night. My mask is camouflage, since I am Hiddenleafguy.I won't talk about what roles anyone might have at this stage, but note that it's generally good vanilla town play to bait the scum's kill so the town power roles aren't killed. What do you think of Fallacy's play?
I would speak on the possibility of a Graknorke and Tawarochir scum team, but that would backfire heavily at the moment.Go for it. As long as the reasoning is clear and makes sense, it's a valid thing to put forwards. At the end of the day, sharing ideas is the only tool that town have to root out the scum.
The reason I don't think fallacyofurist is mafia is because none of his defenses seem to be about preventing us from lynching him. Instead his only goal seems to be lynching scum. Which as far as I know is not at all how scum plays.This is distinctly not true. See the quote above, and look at how many times he's mentioned that he's town.
Scum generally want to frame townies. If they try to defend themselves, it could throw even more suspicion on them. If they focus more on framing townies, then it's possible that they could end up convincing the people accusing them that they are actually townies by playing in as much of a townie-like way as possible.It's valid, at the very least. Framing townies is a good way to rack up kills, as long as you think you can avoid suspicion after the townie's alignment has been exposed.I do not understand what point you are trying to make, could you please elaborate?
Which I think is going to backfire heavily... gah.You've already told us that you've considered the possibility. It doesn't take Einstein to know why you suspect us, and I accept that I seem suspect to you.
Why'd you even mention that the possibility crossed your mind?Because the possibility seemed good and I wasn't thinking right.
Do we have cops & jailkeepers present?We definitely have one or the other, and possibly both.
The red text is because (as I mentioned earlier) I am forced to use the mobile version because of my internet situation and don't know the bb code off the top of my head. Anyway my reason for voting to lynch you, is as follows 1. Your constantly reminding us that your a towny, as i once said (for something completely different but somewhat pertaining to what is happening) ago "Just because you like (or are) something doesn't mean you have to be shoving it down our throats" (Note: This was not said during sex, no matter what my girlfriend may tell you.)To summarize with logic and reason:
2. My leafy since is tingling.
Myself, I've been in one BM before, 45. I feel that the experience taught me a lot about holes, digging, and when to stop. Also that 4mask is terrifyingly focused if he sets his sights on you....
4maskThat's true enough.... This isn't a competition, and that does nothing to help the game.Hah, no I didn't mean in a competitive sense. I was curious what advice resonated most with him (which is game relevant).
That... was actually pretty funny. But quick tip to the newbies: don't try to be a smartass with me, it generally draws my attention if I don't know your playstyle.Yes, there are two roles that seven of us are fishing for.QuoteLoud Whispers, were you disappointed with your role at all?Say it with me, kids. ROLEFISHING!
True. I'll grant that I was not part of those games, and as such do not have as much knowledge in that regard as you do. Carry on.In this setup? Almost always bad. Are you trying to bait me into going on a pages-long rant?I'm not trying to bait any rant out of you (as I'm not sure that would be alignment indicative). My experience in the championship has taught me that there can be big gains from town fake-claiming in a vanilla set-up like this.
Yes, yes, I'll get to this eventually. You know I hate RQS, lay off :PI'll ask questions later, I'm busy.I'll hold you to this.
Double chainsaw defence. Ya know, where one scum defends the other scum by voting for whoever votes for the other and the other one does the same for him.Why? What makes it so much different from every other scumtell? How would you pinpoint a double-chainsaw amidst all of the other accusations?
As for why lets say Jim and Joe decided to vote on whoever votes on the other one, now on comes Bob who votes on Jim, predictably Joe votes on Bob, who almost calls Joe out for chainsawing but then he realizes he could have plenty of other reasons. Then M.O.D.O.K comes and votes on Joe, which causes Jim to vote on M.O.D.O.K, who then accuses them of double chainsawing, then Obi-wan, Deadpool, and Naruto vote to lynch Jim, closely followed by Joe next round.I appreciate the humor in your name choices. This is a best-case scenario. HOWEVER, it will almost never play out this way, unless the scumteam is incredibly new. Why? Because the scumteam knows this. Scumteams are better at distancing themselves than I would like, which usually means that the town must pick off the individual scum as opposed to the team.
If I'm scum, it generally builds up to a refuge in audacity. If I'm town... it's funny. And it's a good talking point.A good talking point it may be, but it also serves as an unecessary distraction during scumhunting. Generally, it's considered acceptable to assume you are town when giving hypothetical scenarios, but outright saying you are town is... just a tad odd, to be frank. There's nothing I can say is wrong with it, per se, but if it starts distracting from scumhunting or pissing off the other players enough to lynch you then it's a problem.
4maskwolf, do you not have a strong suspicion as to who is scum at the moment?No. It's Day One. As far as I am concerned, there is no such thing as a strong suspicion Day One in a beginner game, because every tool I have at my disposal is missing.
True enough. I am town.Possibly. But probably not. You're more likely to annoy the other players enough that you get lynched on shaky grounds rather than actually force someone to slip.
Next reason: this repetition annoys(drives crazy(oh)) people. Their continued emotional reactions will eventually end in the truth of their statements. Eventually something will slip.
Why don't people refer to themselves as town, anyway?You know the old "that's what the KILLER would say!" thing?
Wifom, good sir. The normal players are town. The scum want to be known as town. Thus they both refer to themselves as town.It's not WIFOM, because a normal townie is unlikely to say "I AM TOWN" every five minutes.
I am town.
Town is town, scum wears town mask. Etc.
Scum IC here to interject some quick helpful non-alignment indicative advice.To further expand this, if you are on a phone, I've found pointing out the reply number (you can find it at the top of the post) also helps.
The quote button is your friend. Quoting posts with questions you wish to respond to helps others. When people inevitably reread through the read, quotes are useful to them, as well as to your other players who may not be paying attention to a question asked to someone who isn't them. Saying someone's scummy for something they posted and quoting that bit is also helpful so that other players don't have to search the thread for it. Playing mafia takes time, so make it take less for others.
(If you are posting from your phone and can't quote something, feel free to mention that, its what saying PFP is for)
Reply numbers don't show up on phones.They do for me. I guess it might depend on the phone.
Hazard, who's opening IC post did you like the most?NQT: Yours.
So, a question for Everyone, what experience have you had with (forum or otherwise) Mafia before now?Graklnole: I've played Supernatural 8 as a temporary player. Well, too bad since i re-ask for replacement.
True enough. I am town.FallacyofUrist: That's true. You could just ask questions questions questions without voting, you know right?
Next reason: this repetition annoys(drives crazy(oh)) people. Their continued emotional reactions will eventually end in the truth of their statements. Eventually something will slip.
4maskwolf, if you had time for a history recounting post, I imagine(I could be wrong) that a small bit of scum hunting could have gone on. Welp.Also: Why are you FOSing someone who are scumhunting, Fallacyofurist?
Now... blast it, I'm town, and I don't want to appear passive, but asking for who to lynch or something is scummy...
... I'm not voting.
On the one hand, would a scummy thug dare to be so brazen in their attempt to frame some poor patsy that they'd risk drawing the ire of the fighting luchadores?Loud Whispers: I agree with hiddenleafguy shouldn't edit the post and Fallacy's repetition, but voting someone is a great way to pressurize someone. What do you disagree with, "I am town" repetition, voting persistence or both?
On the other hand, a scummy thug that would dare to sully the honourable sport of wrestling would do just that. I can't think of something to ask you that has not yet been asked.
Hiddenlefguy, what was that edit about? And who is the old man who told you something in that strange hut?
FallacyofUrist, the way you tried to convince people to vote for notquitethere - to 'get him talking' as you put it; this Luchadore believes that to be a sneaky way to try and trick good Luchadores into lynching someone you know something about.
Indeed, you first wished to get people to lynch notquitethere just to apply pressure for answers, yet later wished to have people lnych notquitethere - despite in that time notquitethere not quite being there, or you detailing any possible new discoveries which would have justified switching suspicion for affirmation.
Your constant repetition that you are town, that you are law-abiding Luchadore; the old wise wrestlers of yore didn't need to hold up placards saying they were wrestlers. They just were.
Graknorke, if you could have swapped out one vanilla townie position in this game for a specialized role, which would it be?Well I don't know what townie roles we have, so it would depend. Unless you meant something else.
Urist McCoder: In your own words, explain the concept of WIFOM and its applicability to mafia games.As far as I understand WIFOM it is any post that leads me or someone else to think in a circular way that leads nowhere, or any post that outright has useless circular logic. As for WIFOM applicability to mafia. It causes us to waste both time and energy, because the only thing it leads to is uncertainty and confusion.
everyone
1.who do you think is being helpful?
2.who do you think is being unhelpful?
3.If you had to lynch someone right now who would you lynch?
4.if you were a doctor who would you save?
5.who do you think is playing well?
6.who do you think is playing poorly?
everyone1. 4maskwolf and Graknorke. I'd say 4maskwolf is more helpful than NQT.
1.who do you think is being helpful?
2.who do you think is being unhelpful?
3.If you had to lynch someone right now who would you lynch?
4.if you were a doctor who would you save?
5.who do you think is playing well?
6.who do you think is playing poorly?
everyone1. Graknorke. Thank god for Graknorke, he's making my job easier.
1.who do you think is being helpful?
2.who do you think is being unhelpful?
3.If you had to lynch someone right now who would you lynch?
4.if you were a doctor who would you save?
5.who do you think is playing well?
6.who do you think is playing poorly?
NQT: Yours.That's very sweet of you. Mine had more jokes in it, certainly. Did either of us give any advice you found particularly useful/enlightening?
Also: Why are you FOSing someone who are scumhunting, Fallacyofurist?This seems like a bit of a weak reason to bandwagon someone.
Everyone: Ask everyone. Random vote one.Are you asking everyone to randomly vote here?
I mean, if you could take one plain, boring town role with no special abilities, and give it a specialized role like cop or doctor, what would you give it?Graknorke, if you could have swapped out one vanilla townie position in this game for a specialized role, which would it be?Well I don't know what townie roles we have, so it would depend. Unless you meant something else.
1.who do you think is being helpful?1. NQT, maybe? And yeah, Grak.
2.who do you think is being unhelpful?
3.If you had to lynch someone right now who would you lynch?
4.if you were a doctor who would you save?
5.who do you think is playing well?
6.who do you think is playing poorly?
I mean, if you could take one plain, boring town role with no special abilities, and give it a specialized role like cop or doctor, what would you give it?Well I seem to have a bias towards thinking that blocking roles are more useful, so probably one of those. I guess because they have a concrete result, while to function cops have to either convince everyone else of their results, or out themselves as a power role and make that convincing easier. Given the current situation a roleblocker would be more useful than a doctor I reckon, since at this point there's most of the players who scum might want dead, but only a few who I consider to be particularly likely to be scum.
This is all reasonable enough, except I'd say that blocking roles in a vanilla setup will most often do nothing (because they're hitting vanilla town) whereas unless you're blocked or your target is nightkilled, a cop always gets definite information. If you can clear enough living players as town and you can help avoid mislynches then the game becomes a lot easier for town.I mean, if you could take one plain, boring town role with no special abilities, and give it a specialized role like cop or doctor, what would you give it?Well I seem to have a bias towards thinking that blocking roles are more useful, so probably one of those. I guess because they have a concrete result, while to function cops have to either convince everyone else of their results, or out themselves as a power role and make that convincing easier. Given the current situation a roleblocker would be more useful than a doctor I reckon, since at this point there's most of the players who scum might want dead, but only a few who I consider to be particularly likely to be scum.
But honestly I don't think that there's much help we would get out of power roles, unless the mafia were also to end up with some. The only things we really need to be able to do with this setup are identify and protect against scum, which the cop and jailor can do. And those are the two we've been given a chance of getting.
I'd appreciate if the ICs had anything to say about that, though. They obviously have more experience with weird combinations of roles.
McCoder, what do you intend to get out of the questionnaire?I had no idea what angle to pursue next so I asked a ton of random questions.
isn't that the point of the random voting stage?No, the random votes in the RVS are supposed to be put on effectively to focus on one person to ask questions to, then when they do, you change your vote. Not to vote on one person and then tunnel-vision them for no reason.
how many games of mafia have you played before, Graknorke?Answered in my first post:
Myself, I've been in one BM before, 45. I feel that the experience taught me a lot about holes, digging, and when to stop. Also that 4mask is terrifyingly focused if he sets his sights on you.
No, the random votes in the RVS are supposed to be put on effectively to focus on one person to ask questions to, then when they do, you change your vote. Not to vote on one person and then tunnel-vision them for no reason.My question have been answered and that above reason. Unvote
Town players should never try and get themselves lynched.Objection, your honor.
I'm going to take a look over there.Don't bother. It was just a reminder to NQT that on rare occasions, town sincerely offering to be lynched can be beneficial. Doesn't matter for this setup, though.
I am town. Is there anything wrong with saying that I'm town?
Loud Whispers, why do you vote me for aggressively scumhunting(in my opinion)?
Loud Whispers: I agree with hiddenleafguy shouldn't edit the post and Fallacy's repetition, but voting someone is a great way to pressurize someone. What do you disagree with, "I am town" repetition, voting persistence or both?Constant reaffirmation that "I am town" is one thing - akin to being at the scene of a Luchadore murder running around screaming "I DID NOTHING HERE" when no one suspected them to begin with.
Everyone: Ask everyone. Random vote one.
Point ho. One vote on NQT isn't enough pressure.Calling for a sword of damocles to be placed above notquitethere.
Come on, people, vote for the guy, let's get him hurting! Let's get him talking!
I'm telling people to vote NQT because I think he's scum. I don't think that telling other people who to vote for is a bad thing. This isn't a game where votes can be forced onto people with role abilities. Make your own choices, just note that I want you to vote for NQT.And then we see FallacyofUrist switching from fleeting suspicion to confidence in notquitethere's guilt, without explaining any reasoning or new information which could have allowed for such a leap in judgement.
1. Grakpope, explains his arguments well.Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Loud Whispers: Which town power role do you think is stronger in this setup, and why?Jailkeeper; they're the only one who can safely reveal they are not a cheating-mafia-licking-boot-humping scum.
Questions? What is this, thing you are inquiring me to ask? Do I just say "Hello sir would you like to question?" or is it a product of some strange company, if so am I a mere internet ad? Do I have a "Do you want to buy the product if the future? If so say hi to the question!" on my face? But really it is a product of my horrible memory and no quote button.What in hell is this supposed to mean, and is there any other reason you're voting for Fallacy?
Vote Fallacy
Vote FallacyEnough of this 'Fallacy is scum' thing. People have enough info about Fallacy now.
I just want to get rid of a potential lurker, and i want someone to ask questions that are mafia-related.There are other reasons to accuse people, you know.Vote FallacyEnough of this 'Fallacy is scum' thing. People have enough info about Fallacy now.
There are other reasons to accuse people, you know.Just pointing out a fact that if there is pressure it is enough.
I edited in a sentence*twitch*
Post, one post and I already explained why I did so in my earlier post, do you want me to edit it back?No post editing, even to edit what you'd edited. It's a cardinal rule in forum mafia.
not so much no one else. it is more of that I can not find an angle that gives me something to push with.No way is there absolutely nothing. Fallacy has proposed a whole bunch of his scum suspects that he brought up, which you could look into and flesh out the justifications for. And original arguments are abound: h4zard and Hidden both have been light on the posting so far, and I'm pretty sure that Taw, 4mask, and myself have not once been put under any suspicion the entire game. There's got to be something there, but instead you limply throw your vote after wherever is the easiest to fit in.
You can press on Hiddenleafguy who bandwagoned and edited their post, or just unvote.Wow that sure does read a lot like you're trying to deflect votes from Fallacy, above all else. I'm not going to aggressively jump on it straight away, but just know that it didn't go unnoticed, and will be factored into future judgements.
How much time till night?Why do you want to know?
NQTNot in the long run. The longer the game goes on, the higher chance of lower partipation levels. Shorter days force players to engage and make decisions, which puts additional pressure on the mafia. Taking extensions is like drinking whiskey to cure a hangover.
I was under the impression that extension are always good for the town
Just curious about how much time we have left before one of us dies in the night from a heart attack.Just curious? Cancel Extension.
NQT I thought that the longer the day the more likely it becomes that scum will crackCertainly false on D1. Scum don't crack on D1 so much as get overexcited, generally, and if they haven't done it early on they won't do it at all, in my experience.
NQT how do you feel about shortening days?Shortening requires a majority consensus anyway, so... it's only to be done when the majority is in agreement.
Tawarochir, I haven't really seen much of you. Pray tell, why is FOU scum?I gave my reasoning earlier. I'm probably going to change my vote once somebody else seems fishy enough, but for now, Fallacy's apologies, while slightly redeeming his irrationality beforehand, do not excuse his earlier behavior.
NQT how do you feel about shortening days?I think it's best when everyone knows when the day ends. Unless a town majority is in agreement, there's no use shortening.
NQT I thought that the longer the day the more likely it becomes that scum will crackYou don't generally find scum by them cracking, it's more that they reveal themselves through their behavior and so there's diminishing returns in extending the day.
FOU, may you elaborate on the issue of your sudden certainty that nqt was rigging the match?... please quote the post in which I said anything of the sort.
Because there is no one else to pressure, and I think he is scumOh, missed you. At this point, your scummyness increases in my eyes.
Tawarochir: please state, thoroughly and in your own words, why you are not scum and I am.You have no reason to suspect I am not scum except taking my word for it, but you also have few or no reasons to think I am, either. You, meanwhile, had what seemed to be a rather over-the-top breakdown with the most bizarre methods of denial I have ever seen.
One. Because I practically spammed "I am town", effectively spamming "I am scum" for much of the day. As you can tell, that was an ineffective ploy that backfired, failing to reveal scum and getting me voted.I started suspecting you before you even started with the "I am town" thing, and, for the record, you quite literally asked people to vote for and pressure NQT and HLG for no discernible reason.
Two. Because I tunneled on NQT and hiddenleafguy at the beginning.
Oh, missed you. At this point, your scummyness increases in my eyes.Because he thinks you're scum? That's some OMGUS behaviour right there. Exactly in line with how you've been acting the entire game so far.
To begin with before... Damn forgot the name of the person who pointed out that you had said that you were town in most of your posts. After that I read back through and notice that you had, that was suspicious to me. As for why I am not scum who would rig a match, you will just have to trust me, and take my mask when I inevitability die, dry clean only by the way.... er... you effectively did exactly the same thing I did with the "I am town" thing! You're either insane or scum. I meant logic. Use logic, blast it, Hiddenleafguy. Now I'm serious- as of this moment I believe you deserve this vote for multiple reasons.
How much time till night?
Just curious about how much time we have left before one of us dies in the night from a heart attack.And another thing: you just seem to want the day done. You're too focused on me being scum to the exclusion of everybody else. For better or for worse, you seem to see me as your archnemisis.
Actually, because he said I'm scum- then gave no real reason for it. He said something like "because there's no one else to pressure". Does that not seem scummy to you?Oh, missed you. At this point, your scummyness increases in my eyes.Because he thinks you're scum? That's some OMGUS behaviour right there. Exactly in line with how you've been acting the entire game so far.
Actually, because he said I'm scum- then gave no real reason for it. He said something like "because there's no one else to pressure". Does that not seem scummy to you?That does make sense. It would have helped if you'd explained that at the time. As always, justification is key. I think I'd rather have people posting utter rubbish theories that is well backed up than I would them trying to emulate Fermat's last theorem. At least with the former you can go through the given evidence and arguments to consider whether it's sensible or not.
FOU I think you are scum for several reasons.1. ... good sir, mafia and town both don't want to be lynched. And again, using bits from my previous insanity tirade, which I consider no longer valid. I'm Logic Man now.
1.You seem to care about not being lynched a lot which does not make a ton of sense if you are town (IC's please correct me If I am mistaken here.)
2.You have only used 2-3 defense, even though no one is buying them. This makes me think that you don't actually have a good defense, and are just using some predetermined defense to try and skate buy.
3.90% of your arguments are just something that someone else said that you changed just enough that people might not notice.
Fermat's last theorem? What's that?
Everybody but Hiddenleafguy: what is your current opinion on Hiddenleafguy?Shady, but also kind of ineffectual. No offence HLG, but your posts so far really haven't had any substance to them, helpful or disruptive. It's something I don't like, but there's people with suspect voting patterns which are more actively demanding investigation.
using bits from my previous insanity tirade, which I consider no longer validEverything is valid forever.
Better word then: relevant. I don't consider the insanity tirade relevant anymore. Unlike validity, relevancy in Mafia... well I suppose it depends on the game, but as time goes by, that little tirade should grow less and less relevant. Should, according to my opinion.using bits from my previous insanity tirade, which I consider no longer validEverything is valid forever.
Everybody but Hiddenleafguy: what is your current opinion on Hiddenleafguy?this is another thing that makes me think you are scum. You ask for other peoples opinions instead of formulating your own arguments. this makes it seem like you don't want to stand out, which as far as I understand is something of a scum tell.
Target: Tawarochir:Let me explain. You looked incredibly scummy at the start of the game. You're making up for it, but that doesn't excuse the fact that you looked like scum incarnate. However, I'm starting to think that you're not as suspicious as you seemed, since you're proving to actually be a rather effective scumhunter, so for now unvote.
You're excused for the moment. For now. Hiddenleafguy seems more likely to be scum, but you're one of my top suspects at the time, for the same reasons as Hiddenleafguy. At least you're semi-logicing it out.
Everybody but Hiddenleafguy: what is your current opinion on Hiddenleafguy?Hiddenleafguy is being shady as fuck right now.
Objection! He could be using the opinions to formulate his own arguments!Everybody but Hiddenleafguy: what is your current opinion on Hiddenleafguy?this is another thing that makes me think you are scum. You ask for other peoples opinions instead of formulating your own arguments. this makes it seem like you don't want to stand out, which as far as I understand is something of a scum tell.
It's not really up to you to decide what of your actions are relevant though, is it? Again: kindly stop trying to dictate how other people should think. It's not anyone's job to outright tell others how to vote, and it's not anyone's job to outright tell others that their own actions are above scrutiny.Noted.
Everybody but Hiddenleafguy: what is your current opinion on Hiddenleafguy?this is another thing that makes me think you are scum. You ask for other peoples opinions instead of formulating your own arguments. this makes it seem like you don't want to stand out, which as far as I understand is something of a scum tell.
FallacyofUrist
1.Town still wins even if the are dead, and if you are town once you get lynched other people could look at who attacked you in the most scummy way. Which very well may lead to finding the scum
2.predetermined is not really the right word. What I was trying to say was that it felt like your defenses are very 2 dimensional.
3.examplesSpoiler (click to show/hide)
FOU I was not trying to say that you should let yourself get lynched. I was saying that all you did for many pages was say you are town.
It just seems really scummy considering that he asked who to vote for earlier. And even if he is using it to formulate an opinion, it seems like the main reason for him leaning on other peoples opinions is to not stand out while still having an argument that would pass muster.Objection! He could be using the opinions to formulate his own arguments!Everybody but Hiddenleafguy: what is your current opinion on Hiddenleafguy?this is another thing that makes me think you are scum. You ask for other peoples opinions instead of formulating your own arguments. this makes it seem like you don't want to stand out, which as far as I understand is something of a scum tell.
~~~FOU In what way do feel like tawarochir is acting like hiddenleafguy? To me it looks like they are playing in totally different ways, and Tawarochir does not strike me as scummy at all.
Target: Tawarochir:
You're excused for the moment. For now. Hiddenleafguy seems more likely to be scum, but you're one of my top suspects at the time, for the same reasons as Hiddenleafguy. At least you're semi-logicing it out.
~~~
90% of your arguments are just something that someone else said that you changed just enough that people might not notice.This could easily apply to your voting and hunting habits. Up to and including now. You haven't really acknowledged that one even after I tried to prompt it out of you earlier.
H4zard, what is the single scummiest post of the game so far, in your opinion? Completely removed from context, just that post on its own. You seem to be a bit reluctant to actually engage with scum-hunting, preferring to encourage people to not vote for Fallacy. Whether that's because you have some innate fear of a majority vote in general or you just want to protect Fallacy I can't say, but either way it's not based on something rational. And it's not helping anything, either.1. Hiddenleafguy(and to the lesser extent, Coder)'s out from the blue bandwagon. No more reason to that, except if he thinks Fallacy's scum, which is reasonable.
Everybody but Hiddenleafguy: what is your current opinion on Hiddenleafguy?Um... I should do votes right now.
The answer is 42.What the hell are you driving at?
Tawarochir, what brought on the sudden interest in HLG?I'd been keeping an eye on him for a while, but the sudden non-sequiters, Fallacy's questioning, and word salad logic brought him to my attention.
The answer is 42.If Urist McCoder wasn't so much more of a threat if he's scum, you'd be dead meat under my vote. As of right now Urist McCoder is (not more scummy, but) more dangerous.
Actually tawarochir has stopped acting even slightly like hiddenleafguy. Oi Urist McCoder, can you not respond completely to my posts?~~~FOU In what way do feel like tawarochir is acting like hiddenleafguy? To me it looks like they are playing in totally different ways, and Tawarochir does not strike me as scummy at all.
Target: Tawarochir:
You're excused for the moment. For now. Hiddenleafguy seems more likely to be scum, but you're one of my top suspects at the time, for the same reasons as Hiddenleafguy. At least you're semi-logicing it out.
~~~
Okay, but it seems easy enough to me to simply type words. It may be different for you... but still...It just seems really scummy considering that he asked who to vote for earlier. And even if he is using it to formulate an opinion, it seems like the main reason for him leaning on other peoples opinions is to not stand out while still having an argument that would pass muster.Objection! He could be using the opinions to formulate his own arguments!Everybody but Hiddenleafguy: what is your current opinion on Hiddenleafguy?this is another thing that makes me think you are scum. You ask for other peoples opinions instead of formulating your own arguments. this makes it seem like you don't want to stand out, which as far as I understand is something of a scum tell.
FOU the reason for the whole correcting my self thing is because when I talk it takes me a while to figure what what word best suits the current situation. And I don't really have a good way to figure out what word to use when I am posting in forums. So i end up correcting myself, and not being very clear in how I present my thoughts.
The answer is 42.vote Hiddenleafguy
Fermat's last theorem? What's that?Hiddenleafluchadore is #2 on my list of suspects. The only thing bringing me to hesitation is that of the both of you, it is unlikely that both of you are corrupt, unless the efforts to have each other lynched is just a cover. The reason why I currently suspect you most over HLG is that HLG is more plausibly making horrendous nooby mistakes, as HLG is a horrendous noob who went so far as to edit a post. And whilst you also claim to be innocent by noob plea:
Also, so I can be sure about my lynch target for this day,
Everybody but Hiddenleafguy: what is your current opinion on Hiddenleafguy?
This is my first game of forum mafia. I have however read several pages worth of mafia theory at the wiki. And many, many, interesting and complex non-beginner games have also been read by me here in the pursuit of knowledge.You are more well-versed in these ways.
FOU, may you elaborate on the issue of your sudden certainty that nqt was rigging the match?... please quote the post in which I said anything of the sort.
Okay.Your plea is moving, but the mounting evidence leads me to maintain my scary red text.
First up, please spell my username correctly.
Second up: I'm telling people to vote NQT because I think he's scum.
You have no reason to suspect I am not scum except taking my word for it, but you also have few or no reasons to think I am, either.If Taw and Grak were cheating the wrestle, it would be the perfect crime and I none the wiser in the time being.
I am really coming of as scummy aren't I.I'm letting off the scary red hook because FallacyofUrist seems more suspicious now. HLG is all over the place.
For everyone: Who here do you trust the most, from order of most to least, to be on your side?Not sure. Grak certainly seems more trustworthy than most of the others, but I can't deny that his seemingly perfect playing could be a ruse. But that's the point of the game, so I shouldn't sweat it too much. LW seems quite a bit more trustworthy than Fallacy. Fallacy seems sketchier than LW, but McCoder feels sketchier than Fallacy. HLG is the bottom of the scummy-looking barrel. I'm not really sure about H4zard and the ICs, since they've all been quieter than everybody else, but I'd put their positioning floating somewhere around LW-Fallacy.
Note in the first post, one of the rules is "play to win". I hope that doesn't count as quoting the mod, but I don't thank it should. That defense is- that isn't a defense.There is nothing wrong with quoting the OP. Quoting the mod means not quoting role PMs or other private communication between you and the mod.
A quick rule clarification:Heh... heh... I used to be such a smartass about this for no reason...Note in the first post, one of the rules is "play to win". I hope that doesn't count as quoting the mod, but I don't thank it should. That defense is- that isn't a defense.There is nothing wrong with quoting the OP. Quoting the mod means not quoting role PMs or other private communication between you and the mod.
4mask, Tawa isn't going to be lynched today, who else is scummy?I'll have reread the thread by the start of Day 2, things are pretty much decided right now and I'm busy.
Any more debate before day ends and hopefully we lynch scum?I feel like whichever way this flips, we have some good information from Day 1. Even if HLG was just being like that for the sake of it, we know that scum would know and their behaviour to try and take advantage of it should be visible. And likewise scum teams are going to try and take the heat off each other, at least a little, so that should show up in analysis of Day 1 after the first night.
Town SpottingHow in the world are being voted on the most and having the most posts town-tells? Why are you trying to throw suspicion off of the two most suspicious people yet?
4mask, you were distancing your scumbuddy Tawa during D1, right?What's with the leading question? That's not very nice.
I survived into Day 2. This is bad news for the scum team because this is when I start bringing out my signature moves.Congratulating yourself on surviving? That's a
McCoder is tied with Graknorke for the most target voted for on D1 (3).Your honor, the witness's statement contains a clear contradiction!
[...]
On D1, Graknorke, 4mask and Loud Whispers were not voted by anyone.
... why in the heck is having the most votes in the game not a scumtell?...Yeah, fair point. Scratch that.
Also, my new scum team picks are Urist McCoder and Loud Whispers.
If you'd like an explanation on why Loud Whispers is my second scum pick, I can provide that with a bit of work.
I would speak on the possibility of a Graknorke and Tawarochir scum team, but that would backfire heavily at the moment.
Okay, that's it. I'm saying a notquitethere and a hiddenleafguy scum team for the moment. Let's take them down.Well we knew for certain that everyone could agree that Graknorke seemed to be the most helpful scumhunter and now we know he really was after he was proven innocent, and someone framed him to get him out of the scene. Hiddenleafguy was far more suspicious, but I maintained it was much more likely that Hiddenleafguy was a true noob whilst you were well-learned in Mafia ways.
wow reading back through that me and fallacyofurist really do look like a scum team :-\I have not yet turned my suspicions into convictions on you Urist McCoder, but FallacyofUrist every single thing I've seen of you reeks of scum.
... why in the heck is having the most votes in the game not a scumtell?Wait, no, I misread that. It's not a tell in and of itself, it's a result of perceived tells. So it could be called an indirect tell, but being voted on is not a tell by itself.
How in the world are being voted on the most and having the most posts town-tells? Why are you trying to throw suspicion off of the two most suspicious people yet?If you're voted for by literally every player then if you're scum then your buddy has been bussing you. While scum often vote one another in distancing on D1, they rarely bus. Fallacy was almost lynched on D1. If you'd opened the page I linked to, you'd see the theory behind thinking the highest frequency poster is less likely to be scum. I'm interested in actually finding scum, not just blindly lynching the least popular players.
What's with the leading question? That's not very nice.Shh, I'm trying to get results here. Let's see what he says.
Congratulating yourself on surviving? That's aNot caring about displaying scum tells is a town tell. Commenting on your town tells is a scum tell. Meta-commenting on your tells is an NQT-tell. If you really think I'm scum then vote me.paddlin'tell.
It's a typo! Good spotting. I obviously meant "McCoder is tied with Graknorke for the most targets voted for on D1 (3)." McCoder and Graknorke both voted for three different players, as far as I can tell everyone else managed at most two. Graknorke, 4mask and LW weren't voted by anyone. Double-check yourself or take my word for it. There's no contradiction here.McCoder is tied with Graknorke for the most target voted for on D1 (3).Your honor, the witness's statement contains a clear contradiction!
[...]
On D1, Graknorke, 4mask and Loud Whispers were not voted by anyone.
... why in the heck is having the most votes in the game not a scumtell?You have received the most votes in the game, are you trying to tell us you're scum?
To answer you notquitethere, it's just a humourous way of saying I have my suspicions, my vote was maintained on FallacyofUrist; I was not aware of any ambiguity by abusing the dramatic emphasis of red text.When you put something in red text, you are literally voting for it. It's stylistically confusing to also use the vote-colour for dramatic emphasis.
I also do not believe in being able to statistically analyze who is working against us over who my intuition says is; do you genuinely believe that your superstitions as to who has the most posts and how many votes they got is a sure sign as to who is innocent? Because FallacyofUrist earned those votes by being suspicious to hell and the quantity of posts is secondary to the content of the posts.The stats aren't everything but they're a very good starting point. These aren't 'superstitions': I have trawled through dozens of games looking at common patterns: the person with the most posts is very very rarely scum. This makes sense as scum player most often play reactively.
You are either scum or a good hunter. And if you're a good hunter, I'm not sure where to look next.Also, my new scum team picks are Urist McCoder and Loud Whispers.
If you'd like an explanation on why Loud Whispers is my second scum pick, I can provide that with a bit of work.
/me lets out a laugh, fell and terrible.I would speak on the possibility of a Graknorke and Tawarochir scum team, but that would backfire heavily at the moment.Okay, that's it. I'm saying a notquitethere and a hiddenleafguy scum team for the moment. Let's take them down.Well we knew for certain that everyone could agree that Graknorke seemed to be the most helpful scumhunter and now we know he really was after he was proven innocent, and someone framed him to get him out of the scene. Hiddenleafguy was far more suspicious, but I maintained it was much more likely that Hiddenleafguy was a true noob whilst you were well-learned in Mafia ways.
You're two for four down and only seemed to name Graknorke because they were zoning in on you, and are now naming me because I am zoning in on you, and only seemed to zone in on Hiddenleafguy because Hiddenleafguy and you were the two most suspicious people on day 1 - it was either HLG or you.
Oh but of course, I'm sure you had reasons for your suspicions. Reasons you did not bother to tell anyone, because you have not made them yet.wow reading back through that me and fallacyofurist really do look like a scum team :-\I have not yet turned my suspicions into convictions on you Urist McCoder, but FallacyofUrist every single thing I've seen of you reeks of scum.
No, I'm not trying to say I'm scum. I'm just curious why having a large number of votes D1 isn't a scumtell.
Fallacy... why in the heck is having the most votes in the game not a scumtell?You have received the most votes in the game, are you trying to tell us you're scum?
Urist McCoder: You're not coming across much better though. All of your posts have been very short, and without adding much. Not much different to hiddenleafguy's style really. But FoU didn't pick up on it. You two as a scumteam isn't looking particularly unlikely right now.
If we're looking at scum teams, you jumped on Urist McCoder's vote pretty quickly, and since you began piling on NQT he's agreed with everything you've said as well. At least, up until right now where there's a chance of you coming under scrutiny. Coincidence? Probably not. I feel like one of you is a disgrace to Luchadore-kind, and right now you're looking like the more dangerous of the two with your attempts at quickly dictating a common consensus.
So I've been thinking. Fallacy is still shady to me, but there's other things to address.
unvote
vote McCoder
McCoder, your behavior so far has been very indicative of following the bandwagon. You made accusations soon after others did, and then dropped them as soon as any swing happened against them, like you're afraid to stand out.
Please justify every vote and unvote you have made up until now.
Context: "he" being Urist McCoder.Actually, because he said I'm scum- then gave no real reason for it. He said something like "because there's no one else to pressure". Does that not seem scummy to you?That does make sense. It would have helped if you'd explained that at the time. As always, justification is key. I think I'd rather have people posting utter rubbish theories that is well backed up than I would them trying to emulate Fermat's last theorem. At least with the former you can go through the given evidence and arguments to consider whether it's sensible or not.
You are either scum or a good hunter. And if you're a good hunter, I'm not sure where to look next.*OOC, every time you said good hunter I was hearing all of them Bloodborne voices.
I really hope we've got a cop to prove my innocence.
*Listens to music*Someone planted steroids on him, when he was a stellar Luchadore whose muscles were gained fairly with an all Biltong diet and sick reps!
Okay. Oi you, when did someone frame Graknorke? I see no evidence of that.
The scum must have seen him as the threat to their ranks that he was....So it is interesting then, that he was one of the people you named as scum.
... here's the important(and more relevant bit): you've given some good arguments against me, but no arguments that prove(or attempt to prove) that you or Urist McCoder are not scum. In fact, good sir, it seems that you're trying to distract from your own scumminess by attacking me. I, for better or worse, am the scapegoat at the moment. I await your reply.Well I'm not going to prove that Urist McCoder is not scum because I don't know that he isn't nor do I have proof of that, and if anything Urist McCoder is high on my list of suspects so I don't even care to do that. And I can't prove I'm not scum either because I don't know the cop and all I know is I'm town, Hiddenleafguy and Graknorke were town.
Blast it. Here's the deal. I believe that Loud Whispers and Urist McCoder are the scum because they've assaulted me, to a large degree, but done nothing to logic out their own innocence. I've poked and pushed at them multiple times, but they don't respond to defend themselves. Look up ad hominem. If that's the way to spell it. It's latin for to the man. Loud Whispers and Urist McCoder are striking at me instead of my arguments.I believe there is some projection going on here.
I would speak on the possibility of a Graknorke and Tawarochir scum team, but that would backfire heavily at the moment.When someone accused you of being scum all you did was accuse them of being scum instead.
Tawarochir: please state, thoroughly and in your own words, why you are not scum and I am.Repeaateedly.
hiddenleafguy: please tell me, exactly why you think I'm scum and explain why you're not.
Every single time.Because there is no one else to pressure, and I think he is scumOh, missed you. At this point, your scummyness increases in my eyes.
Blast it. Here's the deal. I believe that Loud Whispers and Urist McCoder are the scum because they've assaulted meLike clockwork.
Oh, right, in the flavor. Gotcha.*Listens to music*Someone planted steroids on him, when he was a stellar Luchadore whose muscles were gained fairly with an all Biltong diet and sick reps!
Okay. Oi you, when did someone frame Graknorke? I see no evidence of that.
I was incorrect. I named him as scum because of my "temporary noob insanity". In the later part of the day he read town with incredible radiance.The scum must have seen him as the threat to their ranks that he was....So it is interesting then, that he was one of the people you named as scum.
You consider Urist McCoder to be likely scum? Good to know- likely bussing though. I think it relevant that at the end of the first day, I found hiddenleafguy to have a bit of a "town noob" feel growing, if I had more time in the day I probably would have revoted Urist McCoder.... here's the important(and more relevant bit): you've given some good arguments against me, but no arguments that prove(or attempt to prove) that you or Urist McCoder are not scum. In fact, good sir, it seems that you're trying to distract from your own scumminess by attacking me. I, for better or worse, am the scapegoat at the moment. I await your reply.Well I'm not going to prove that Urist McCoder is not scum because I don't know that he isn't nor do I have proof of that, and if anything Urist McCoder is high on my list of suspects so I don't even care to do that. And I can't prove I'm not scum either because I don't know the cop and all I know is I'm town, Hiddenleafguy and Graknorke were town.
The only way I can prove I am town to other honourable Luchadores and not just myself is by lynching mafia. So I strive to do my best to lynch mafia, until I am killed by mafia or lynched by Luchadores. I cautioned against lynching Hiddenleafguy because he seemed to be genuinely nooby in my judgement and not acting in malice or deliberate deception (although I agree he did act in insane confusion, one must expect that of a Luchadore who wears leaves within their mask), and one who defends a town about to be lynched against majority opposition in favour of someone who does not suspect them is not someone who particularly cares about going under the radar and is one who cares about keeping the town population high.
I'm glad to know that you don't consider it impossible for me to be town.I will post everything and anything I can possibly post to give you insight into the mind of Luchadore Whispers and the life of Luchadore Whispers short of posting the PM saying I am vanilla Townie, because that would be gamebreaking to all hell.Spoiler (click to show/hide)
One thing the good Graktastic Grakopop machine did theorize before being disgraced by mafia shenanigans was that the poetic Urist and Urist scumteam was looking less likely given your diametric oppositions. The Grakular Grakophone was usually quite well reasoned in these matters; should you be revealed as town FallacyofUrist, Urist McCoder will be my suspect #1 and should you be revealed as mafia Urist McCoder will rest in my books as a probable townie. After a few questions.
Well crikey, that's correct. It seems that my natural reflex against an attack is to attack back. Quote some human I don't know: "the best defense is a good offense". But that doesn't seem to be something I should do all the time. Thank you for noticing that.Blast it. Here's the deal. I believe that Loud Whispers and Urist McCoder are the scum because they've assaulted me, to a large degree, but done nothing to logic out their own innocence. I've poked and pushed at them multiple times, but they don't respond to defend themselves. Look up ad hominem. If that's the way to spell it. It's latin for to the man. Loud Whispers and Urist McCoder are striking at me instead of my arguments.I believe there is some projection going on here.
What happened when Grakomorph Pargon Pargon Grakthulhu and Tarowachir put the spotlight on you?I would speak on the possibility of a Graknorke and Tawarochir scum team, but that would backfire heavily at the moment.When someone accused you of being scum all you did was accuse them of being scum instead.Tawarochir: please state, thoroughly and in your own words, why you are not scum and I am.Repeaateedly.
hiddenleafguy: please tell me, exactly why you think I'm scum and explain why you're not.Every single time.Because there is no one else to pressure, and I think he is scumOh, missed you. At this point, your scummyness increases in my eyes.Blast it. Here's the deal. I believe that Loud Whispers and Urist McCoder are the scum because they've assaulted meLike clockwork.
You consider Urist McCoder to be likely scum? Good to know- likely bussing though. I think it relevant that at the end of the first day, I found hiddenleafguy to have a bit of a "town noob" feel growing, if I had more time in the day I probablywouldhave revoted Urist McCoder.Do you remember the circumstances? Nobody in their right mind would have voted for anyone else--HLG was more suspicious than Solid Snake without a cardboard box. So why is your hindsight better than 20/20 here--why do you seem to know his alignment?
I meant McCoder.What do you mean by that?
Would you like to hear my reasoning?Sure.
snipAfter all that, I find it hard to believe Loud Whispers is scum, unless he's willing to put forward an incredible amount of effort.
You consider Urist McCoder to be likely scum? Good to know- likely bussing though. I think it relevant that at the end of the first day, I found hiddenleafguy to have a bit of a "town noob" feel growing, if I had more time in the day I probablywouldhave revoted Urist McCoder.and then you post this.
Loud Whispers is no longer suspicious to me.I don't understand how you can post both of these things in the same post.
No, I'm not trying to say I'm scum. I'm just curious why having a large number of votes D1 isn't a scumtell.Sometimes it can indicate that someone is found suspicious by loads of people but not enough at the same time to be lynched yet. But it's rare that literally everyone votes for someone on D1.
NQT: odd. The fact is that the two ICs have in fact posted much less often than the other players.This isn't actually true. 4mask and I have a higher overall post count than Loud Whispers and Hazard and my number of posts is only one less than Hiddenleafguy. There are people who haven't appeared yet today but I'm not too concerned about activity levels yet.
My conclusion is that... okay, at the moment my only conclusion is that Urist McCoder is scum. At least one other player besides myself is scum also. And unfortunately, it seems likely to me that one of the ICs is scum. Would you like to hear my reasoning?Yes, let's hear this reasoning.
The stats aren't everything but they're a very good starting point. These aren't 'superstitions': I have trawled through dozens of games looking at common patterns: the person with the most posts is very very rarely scum. This makes sense as scum player most often play reactively.
Fallacy was voted for every other player except me. Do you think I'm his buddy? If not, then who was bussing him?
Do you see that i am suddenly turned offline for a day or two? Replacement. Please please. It's not like i could keep up with all the RL issues.Contacting Shaporia.
FallacyI already posted the reasoning. Just look a few posts back.My conclusion is that... okay, at the moment my only conclusion is that Urist McCoder is scum. At least one other player besides myself is scum also. And unfortunately, it seems likely to me that one of the ICs is scum. Would you like to hear my reasoning?Yes, let's hear this reasoning.
NQT: Erm... what? That logic used for voting me is troll logic at best, and makes absolutely no sense.I was asking an unnecessarily leading question but my vote isn't a troll move. I'd like answers to my questions.
I think I just missed your question
Loud Whispers
Did I miss your answer to this somewhere?
I do not think you are his buddy, and I don't know what bussing is so I can't say.The stats aren't everything but they're a very good starting point. These aren't 'superstitions': I have trawled through dozens of games looking at common patterns: the person with the most posts is very very rarely scum. This makes sense as scum player most often play reactively.
Fallacy was voted for every other player except me. Do you think I'm his buddy? If not, then who was bussing him?
Everybody: Can each of you please make two lists; one for who you think is scum, from most likely to least likely, and who you think is playing the best, from most likely to least likely? Discounting Grak and HLG, of course.
I do not think you are his buddy, and I don't know what bussing is so I can't say.Bussing is when one scum player votes for (with the intent of lynching) another member of their team. I'm saying everyone has voted for Fallacy, so if Fallacy is scum then which of the players voting them is also scum?
Oh I see; I did not even think of that. Ahah, I have much to look into now.I do not think you are his buddy, and I don't know what bussing is so I can't say.Bussing is when one scum player votes for (with the intent of lynching) another member of their team. I'm saying everyone has voted for Fallacy, so if Fallacy is scum then which of the players voting them is also scum?
Fallacy: Why didn't you make a list?A list of what, partner probabilities?
Because there is no one else to pressure, and I think he is scum
Fallacy: Why didn't you make a list?A list of what, partner probabilities?
Everybody: Can each of you please make two lists; one for who you think is scum, from most likely to least likely, and who you think is playing the best, from most likely to least likely? Discounting Grak and HLG, of course.
I can replace in for 4maskwolf.Thanks.
what are the rules about replacements. Can I use stuff 4maskwolf said as evidence against Shakerag?You don't have to discount anything someone said before they were replaced.
what are the rules about replacements. Can I use stuff 4maskwolf said as evidence against Shakerag?[This is my IC voice. Anything I say in this way is to be taken as coming from me as an IC, and not me as a player. Therefore, this voice will be to answer game mechanics questions and to give advice which you can trust regardless of what my alignment is.
Day 3 ends thursday, 30 of July, at 10:30 BRT (GMT-3). There are 72 hours left.
If the game is in a LYLO or MYLO situation, there will be no formal deadline. >50% Players must vote to end the day, or votes must not change for 24-hours.Am I miscounting? It looks like we're in MYLO.
Teneb:Yes, I got distracted and forgot. There is no deadline.Day 3 ends thursday, 30 of July, at 10:30 BRT (GMT-3). There are 72 hours left.If the game is in a LYLO or MYLO situation, there will be no formal deadline. >50% Players must vote to end the day, or votes must not change for 24-hours.Am I miscounting? It looks like we're in MYLO.
What ho, I have been slain!Alas! Such misfortune! You were innocent all along!
(Good luck with the game.)
(bah post.)
Loud Whispers, how did you feel about NotQuiteThere?notquitethere was one of the people I was leaning towards Townie, the strongest townie to be true since Grak went.
This is not good, we've got this turn to lynch mafia or Luchabowl IV could be ruined for good.Super. What are you going to do about it? You haven't exactly started this day with the actions of one desperate to lynch scum.
I think you are better than 4maskwolf because he is basically lurking, while even though you are coming across as scummy at least you aren't lurking. which I think is better.Who was this directed toward, and why weren't you voting 4maskwolf at the end of D2 if you thought lurking was the greater sin?
By the way, I think that bad grammar is a scumtell. Proof: a player who puts less effort into the game, more passive, copies other arguments, those are scumtells. More active players are less likely to be scum. If someone puts less effort into their posts(anybody can apply better grammar and spelling), its a sign they care less about their attacks/defenses. Thus, scum. Probably wrong, but a good theory in my perspective.[This isn't the first time I've seen such an argument. Scum, worried about being found out, are more likely to be careful when constructing a post to ensure they haven't left any loose ends that someone could latch on to and start questioning them about. I know when I've been scum before I will tend to carefully go over my post to ensure that I'm not leaving myself open to getting attacked about something. However, this sort of thing isn't completely reliable, because some players are just very careful regardless of alignment.
Tawarochir: So, there were three people not voting at the end of D2. 4maskwolf was replacing out. H4zardZ1 was going to replace out, but still seemed to be having some issues. What was your excuse for not voting?There was barely anything to go on except for LW's tirade about Fallacy, and I thought that voting based on that would provoke votes on me based on bandwagoning tells. Then the day ended before there was enough discussion to provoke thought because of the lurking-level being over 9000.
H4zardZ1:
If you're not replacing out, then you got some making up to do for your no-show on D2, man.
1) Give me your reads on every living player.
2) Give me your thoughts on how the votecount sat at the end of D2.
Loud Whispers, why did you single out Fallacy yesterday?This post (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=150970.msg6388878#msg6388878)
Loud Whispers:Between losing nqt, leading the lynch on FOU and the lurkers I'm left needing time to think, a little shaken up by FOU just being a noob.This is not good, we've got this turn to lynch mafia or Luchabowl IV could be ruined for good.Super. What are you going to do about it? You haven't exactly started this day with the actions of one desperate to lynch scum.
And while I think lurking is worse , I don't necessarily think it is a scum tellHumor me. Lurking is worse than what, exactly?
(1)There was barely anything to go on except for LW's tirade about Fallacy, and (2)I thought that voting based on that would provoke votes on me based on bandwagoning tells. (3)Then the day ended before there was enough discussion to provoke thought because of the lurking-level being over 9000.1 - So why didn't you try to stir up discussion yourself? If you think you can just sit back and wait for the other players to play the game for you then you have another think coming.
hurr durrOh, well, thank you H4zardZ1, for your keen insight. This surely makes up for not having done anything of value during all of D2. And may I further add that I hope you didn't harm your precious face while rolling it across your keyboard to make that post.
This post (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=150970.msg6388878#msg6388878)[Holy shit. No one wants to read that. My goddamn eyes glazed over instantly upon clicking that link. And while some players like all that foo foo RP stuff, as soon as I start seeing you talk about luchadores and Emuridian or whatever I've already gone to my happy place in my mind. Some games are very much flavor/RP heavy. Look at pretty much any game that Vector ran. But in a beginner's game? Now you're just wasting valuable time and space fantasizing about big sweaty dudes in masks and tights, and I don't need to know about your kink.
Between losing nqt, leading the lynch on FOU and the lurkers I'm left needing time to think, a little shaken up by FOU just being a noob.[Yes, yes, boo hoo, NQT went before his time, etc. If you're that shaken up by losing players in a game where you regularly lose two every day, am I going to need to start sprinkling my posts with trigger warnings for you? Goodness knows I'm all about thinking things out and making sure you're not going to shoot yourself in the foot, but you've got two whole days of players saying stuff and four roleflips. That's a wealth of information to work with! Even if you don't have a strong case on anyone, at least fire off a few questions to get the conversation started. You've got to have at least something tucked away in the back of your head that could be bugging you. And then while those questions are being answered, you can work on more deeply figuring out who is scum.]
Urist McCoder: Why do you deny that lurking is a scumtell? Additionally, you've been lurking quite a bit. Why should I believe that you're not trying to throw suspicion off yourself by claiming your biggest tell isn't a tell?Oh, I haven't gotten to trot this out in a while. Hypocrisy is not a scumtell (towards bottom of post). (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=93649.msg2686249#msg2686249)
Shakerag When I said that I think lurking is worse. I meant worse than causing mass confusion which is what fou did.Really? Let's analyze:
shakerag before he replaced out 4maskwolf was voting for tawarochir. Does tawarochir strike you as scummy at all?You all strike me as scummy. From my perspective, half of you are scum and the other half are newbies. Am I going to vote Tawarochir? Maybe. But I need to put the thumbscrews on all of you first to figure that out.
1 - So why didn't you try to stir up discussion yourself? If you think you can just sit back and wait for the other players to play the game for you then you have another think coming.1 - The thought never really occured to me, I suppose.
2 - Ahh, self-preservation. You realize that looks scummy, right?
If you feel you have good reason to vote someone, then you drop a vote on their ass. If someone wants to go all "oooh oooh baaaaandwaaaaagon" afterwards then you stop them in their tracks with a "bitch, please. I have reasons A, B, and C here for voting MacScumbucket over there and you can take your bandwagon accusations and shove them up your ass".]
3 - So then why didn't you try to extend the day if you felt it shouldn't have ended?!?
Urist McCoder:Let me get something straight here. The crux of your argument against my argument is:Urist McCoder: Why do you deny that lurking is a scumtell? Additionally, you've been lurking quite a bit. Why should I believe that you're not trying to throw suspicion off yourself by claiming your biggest tell isn't a tell?Oh, I haven't gotten to trot this out in a while. Hypocrisy is not a scumtell (towards bottom of post). (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=93649.msg2686249#msg2686249)QuoteHypocrisy isn't a scum tell because regardless of what offenses a player commits it says nothing about the validity of his arguments.That has nothing to do with what I said. McCoder outright denied that lurking is a scumtell, even though lurking is consistently seen to be a tell, and I'm asking why I shouldn't think that he's not trying to throw suspicion off by denying that it's a tell in the first place.
So now I have a question for you.
Why were you defending McCoder?
Um, I forgot to remove McCoder's quote tag in that last one. Just read it without that.[Can you just repost it with correct formatting? It's hard to read that way.
1 - So why didn't you try to stir up discussion yourself? If you think you can just sit back and wait for the other players to play the game for you then you have another think coming.1 - The thought never really occured to me, I suppose.
2 - Ahh, self-preservation. You realize that looks scummy, right?
If you feel you have good reason to vote someone, then you drop a vote on their ass. If someone wants to go all "oooh oooh baaaaandwaaaaagon" afterwards then you stop them in their tracks with a "bitch, please. I have reasons A, B, and C here for voting MacScumbucket over there and you can take your bandwagon accusations and shove them up your ass".]
3 - So then why didn't you try to extend the day if you felt it shouldn't have ended?!?
Urist McCoder:Let me get something straight here. The crux of your argument against my argument is:Urist McCoder: Why do you deny that lurking is a scumtell? Additionally, you've been lurking quite a bit. Why should I believe that you're not trying to throw suspicion off yourself by claiming your biggest tell isn't a tell?Oh, I haven't gotten to trot this out in a while. Hypocrisy is not a scumtell (towards bottom of post). (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=93649.msg2686249#msg2686249)
Hypocrisy isn't a scum tell because regardless of what offenses a player commits it says nothing about the validity of his arguments.That has nothing to do with what I said. McCoder outright denied that lurking is a scumtell, even though lurking is consistently seen to be a tell, and I'm asking why I shouldn't think that he's not trying to throw suspicion off by denying that it's a tell in the first place.
1 - The thought never really occured to me, I suppose.1 - What thought never really occurred to you? That you should participate in the game at hand?
2 - "Self-preservation is a scumtell"? In your own words, explain why. thanks for the advice by the way
3 - I forgot how quickly the day would end.
That has nothing to do with what I said. McCoder outright denied that lurking is a scumtell, even though lurking is consistently seen to be a tell, and I'm asking why I shouldn't think that he's not trying to throw suspicion off by denying that it's a tell in the first place.Okay, technically that link should have been in my IC Voice, but let's roll with it anyway.
So now I have a question for you.
Why were you defending McCoder?
I just think that lurking has a good chance of being caused by stuff like, schedule, bad internet, having other obligations. so I am not quick to say he is lurking lynch him.I would say that if you're not posting often because of schedule, bad internet, or other obligations, that's more of an "excused absence" sort of thing. We know Real Life happens. These games run a long time and schedule conflicts are inevitable. You let everyone know that a tsunami is heading toward your island, we expect to not see you for a while, the game goes on. Is that lurking? Teeeechnically. But I think we tend to more generally associate "lurking" with "you don't have a damn good reason for not posting".
Top lel, triggered by LuchadoresI do try to entertain. Now play the game, smartass.
So, you're asking me why am I defending McCoder? I would say that my goal wasn't to defend McCoder. My goal was to point out an argument that I thought was flawed. Which, I kind of did. Just not how I intended to originally.Fair enough.
I do try to entertain. Now play the game, smartass.You don't sound like you're having fun. Would you like to calm yourself first?
I am having fun, and this -is- me being calm.I do try to entertain. Now play the game, smartass.You don't sound like you're having fun. Would you like to calm yourself first?
Learning experience time!
It's ok (appreciated, even), but wait until both ICs have a chance to post in response before doing this again.
Top lel, triggered by LuchadoresI do try to entertain. Now play the game, smartass.
I am having fun, and this -is- me being calm.This is a prime example. Shakerag and I have played a few games together, and while he typically comes off as "abrasive and rude" to me, it's his standard attitude. It's a core part of his being, and just because I perceive it as rude doesn't mean it's intended as rude and it doesn't mean that other people see it as rude either. Here we can see him reminding another player that Mafia is a serious game where "smartass"erry is usually not appreciated; while I might see his form as blunt and derogatory, it's meant to be to-the-point.
H4zardZ1, why didn't you include yourself in your scum list? Why did you offer to swap out, then come back and do nothing?1. I forgot to place myself equal to Shakerag and Tawa.
HHHNNNNNNNNGGGGGGGG[totallydrunk]H4zardZ1, why didn't you include yourself in your scum list? Why did you offer to swap out, then come back and do nothing?1. I forgot to place myself equal to Shakerag and Tawa.
2. Offering to swap out because i don't have access to my tablet, doing nothing is because i'm still as confused as heck, and i forgot to play this thing.
...[If you're not going to play the game, then at least replace out so someone else can take your spot. I can't teach you and everyone else anything if you're not willing to play.
Self
I am having fun, and this -is- me being calm.Hey, what is MYLO? Also it seems your sardonic wit has thrown a spanner in the tracks - when you got scrubs who don't know what they're doing mixed with scum who are content with letting you do all the talking all activity is going to grind to a halt. Hahaha, big mean Shakerag - you're making nubs and scum bugger off, nubs haven't got any investment in a game they've just picked up, and if they can't handle the banter they're just going to go outside and scum are just going to let you talk yourself to yourself.
Would you like to try your hand at scumhunting now? I'd just like to remind you that this is MYLO, and activity is paramount.
Hey, what is MYLO?I really shouldn't be the one to answer this but it's been asked twice already, so... Mislynch and Lose. LYLO is Lynch or Lose. The OP has a section explaining most terms.
Hahaha, big mean Shakerag - you're making nubs and scum bugger off, nubs haven't got any investment in a game they've just picked up, and if they can't handle the banter they're just going to go outside and scum are just going to let you talk yourself to yourself.Yes, well, we like to separate the boys from the men in the beginner's games in this subforum.
And just to clarify, you picked off from where 4maskwolf left off right?Yup. I am the role that 4maskwolf was.
Urist McCoder, who are the two you believe are most likely to be Scum?And why are you voting Urist McCoder exactly? The RVS stage was two days ago.
Tawochir, I think you are the least scummy, after graknorke you have been the most dedicated scum hunter. You have never jumped on a vote for no reason. All of your arguments have been your own and they have been well thought out.Why me? Why not Loud "Text Wall J'accuse" Whispers?
Urist McCoder, who are the two you believe are most likely to be Scum?I think hazard and shakerag are the most likely scum. I think hazard is scum because he seems to be lurking. but I think shakerag is more likely to be scum because 4maskwolf post almost nothing. and the things that shakerag has posted has almost all been in his ic voice. It seems to me that shakerags post have had very little scum hunting, but It still looks like he is contributing a ton because he is posting in his ic voice.
Tawochir, I think you are the least scummy, after graknorke you have been the most dedicated scum hunter. You have never jumped on a vote for no reason. All of your arguments have been your own and they have been well thought out.Why me? Why not Loud "Text Wall J'accuse" Whispers?
I think hazard and shakerag are the most likely scum. I think hazard is scum because he seems to be lurking. but I think shakerag is more likely to be scum because 4maskwolf post almost nothing. and the things that shakerag has posted has almost all been in his ic voice. It seems to me that shakerags post have had very little scum hunting, but It still looks like he is contributing a ton because he is posting in his ic voice.Wait wait wait wait wait. You say you think H4zardZ1 is scum "because he seems to be lurking" but you just said, not very long ago, "And while I think lurking is worse , I don't necessarily think it is a scum tell". H4zardZ1 practically didn't post on D2 and that seems to be because of RL issues and he almost replaced out. D3 he seems to be not posting because he's throwing a temper tantrum (voting for yourself like he did is a strong indicator of that).
Here's why loud whispers posted the one text wall, other then that his activity has been on the lower side of normal. you however have maintained a fairly even level of posting. you also have not shown any level of anxiety when people attack you.Lol wut? Loud Whispers has been significantly more active than I have. Why are you lying about basic, observable facts like this?
Loud Whispers and Tawarochir seem to have been playing fairly well. Which could be indicative of them receiving help from a scum IC.Good scumhunting = You are scum
Also, they haven't seemed to have interacted much with each other, looking at my notes (which is a potential scumtell, more so for newer players).I haven't interacted with Taro in the sense that I haven't asked Taro many questions, because I'm pretty sure Taro is town. I also haven't asked H4zarD1 many questions, you many questions, HLG many questions, Graknorke many questions or NQT many questions either. Furthermore Taro's been questioning me; I don't think the trust is fully mutual. And on that other point, the way I see it, the only thing better than having scum IC coaching is to be an IC scum. One who is playing fairly well; you? I'll go with yes. If you were scum you could assert authority through your greater experience and sit back giving advice and bants in great walls of text without actually really saying much about yourself, which is what you have done. And frankly I still don't know myLOS from LYLOS, any coaching is sorely missing from my game.
Also also, LW dropped a wall of text on FoU on D2, but then pretty much dialed it in for the rest of the day. I would like to posit that town would have (or at least, should have) continued probing the other players for leads for the D3 lynch, but (lazy and/or bad) scum just try to set up one mislynch at a time.I dropped the wall of text because I was done; I had my convictions, I didn't have much spare time - but in truth, even if I did whatever else I could have done wouldn't have surmounted to much, as I had no other hunches beyond FOU. And you've seen my wall of text, it was so fucking huge it made you sick - does not strike me as lazy, and by your own admission I've been playing fairly well. I was damn certain of any of two things; that either FOU was scum, or lynching him would remove a town trying to look scum.
Tawarochir I am feeling is less scummy than LW, but more scummy than H4zardZ1.[No reasons given beyond muh feels]
Also, because this is LYLO, if there is still a cop in the game, now would be the time to claim your results.Plus I do like how any evidence which would verify that I am clearly town is to you, further proof I am scum, so much so that were I to reveal I were cop...
If H4zardZ1 is the cop, then we're likely SOL about getting that info. Unless we want to stall for a forced replacement.
If McCoder is the cop, then I'd really like to hear your inspect results.
If Tawarochir claims to be the cop, I'd be very suspicious. See below.
If Loud Whispers claims to be the cop, I'd be very suspicious. See below.
Predictions for a LW/Tawa cop claim: [And future advice for faking a cop claim and/or trying to spot a fake cop claim]...You even have these ballsy predictions naming myself as scum! As if you know me to the bone! Well, you'd be right on one thing, and that is if I revealed I were the cop I'd be scum. Not because of your "predictions" which are just an assertion I'm scum with no evidence, but because earlier on I've said I'm not the cop and I'm not the jailor.
1) One or both inspections will be of players who are presently dead. This is the easiest way to fake claim a cop.
2) LW/Tawa claims town inspection on the other. If you're going to fake claim a cop role, might as well "clear" your scumbuddy.
3) Claiming scum inspection on me. Because if you're going to fake claim a cop role, might as well try and paint your biggest detractor as scum!
4) Claiming town inspect on McCoder and [dead player/me]. Basically faking results that line up with my perceptions, so as to give me no further ammo and potentially setting up a bus for later.
5) Claiming scum inspect on scumbuddy. After scumbuddy is thrown under the bus and flips scum, that faked cop claim is very, very hard to tell apart from a real cop claim. Potentially ballsy, but also can potentially pay off very well.
4maskThis is right before 4maskwolf swapped out. I'm not questioning the sportsmanship of 4maskwolf, I'm saying someone may have been looking out for 4maskwolf or following instructions. NQT spotting Graknorke's town tells is nothing just because Grak was a shining beacon of Town, and HLG was a dud. But FOU? That was a job well done, NQT got it spot on - and NQT was putting the pressure on 4maskwolf, and NQT got lynched. Also suspect is that when 4maskwolf was active, they didn't actually do that much scumhunting - more often than not they'd just appear and tell someone to get more active, conveniently bringing the attention off of them whilst allowing others like FOU to dig a hole deeper for themselves. Seems like someone pitting town against town, being as evasive as possible. It seems curious to cheer on the sidelines getting everyone else to scumhunt whilst doing no scumhunting in person. And then the successor comes along and tries to get the most active scumhunters lynched whilst writing off the most suspicious. For all I know H4zarD1 could be your scumbuddy, and you could be a lonely scum, or Tawarochir is your scumbuddy; it'd make sense to lynch me whilst distancing yourself from him by putting him ineffectually on #2 in the last round. Humorously 4maskwolf said earlier that the scum were likely to have distanced themselves so well that the scum would have to be found one by one. You've been putting more distance than the marathon between you and everyone and their uncle, none moreso than Tawarochir, whilst defending McCoder and H4zarD1 and calling for my lynching. My actions have spoken clearly to the town that were, up until now, but only not to you - for reasons unspoken, only asserted.NQT: Erm... what? That logic used for voting me is troll logic at best, and makes absolutely no sense.I was asking an unnecessarily leading question but my vote isn't a troll move. I'd like answers to my questions.
shakerag I really would like to hear why you so fervently believe loud whispers is scumDude. Are you even reading my posts? I explained why I think he is scum when I voted him.
I was hoping that you had more reasons then they are playing well and not talking to each other.That's not all I wrote. Try again.
I've read through the thread once, and I intend to go back over it. Add me as a replacement.???
(Unless you specifically need a replacement IC. I'm new to forum Mafia.)
I seem to have overlooked that while doing the votecount. Also thanks, Urist, for pointing out my mistake in the count itself.I've read through the thread once, and I intend to go back over it. Add me as a replacement.???
(Unless you specifically need a replacement IC. I'm new to forum Mafia.)
Unvote Urist McCoder, vote Shakerag.That is not the easiest thing to quantify. A lot of it is experience from being an IC before and seeing lots of new players. He has a ... sloppy style of playing. It's not very focused/directed nor refined. It doesn't seem to tighten up with time like I would expect someone who is being coached by a scum IC. He seems to be rather open and chatty, and newbie scum players don't tend to act like that.
It is interesting to me that you have declared Urist McCoder to be a townie, based off of perceivable noobiness. What noobiness have you perceived? You gave no reason.
Already you've written off someone for no declared reason. H4zarD1 you write off because they voted for themselves. Odd, as that rules out nothing - whether it is a result of H4zarD1 quitting due to RL obligations rather unceremoniously or quitting due to H4zarD1's interactions with you, even I can tell there is nothing orthodox about a Townie or Scum doing that. So that's another person ruled out for dubious reasons.Again, experience. Also I mentioned other points as to why I thought he was town which you conveniently ignored.
Then you focus in on the two most ardent scrub scumhunters and declare the fervent scumhunting as evidence of a scum team. Playing fairly well = Scumtell? Ha! Is someone getting scared of being caught? Sounds like it.The idea is that scum should be ardently "scumhunting" so as to appear town. Yes, you and Tawarochir have very well constructed posts. However, technically you have both failed to lynch any scum yet. If the idea of scumhunting is to lynch scum ... then how good of a job of scumhunting have you really been doing, hmm?
And yeah you're right NQT correctly identified FOU as town through statistics and experience whilst I incorrectly assuaged FOU's newby panicking as deliberate lies through inexperience, but more to the point - McCoder, Taro and I were all convinced FOU was scummy because he was doing his best to appear scummy, and no one else appeared as scummy because of this and 4maskwolf and H4zarD1 lurking; as you said, it is better to scumhunt than lynch the lurkers, as you can always deal with the lurkers later. All the same, you only mention Taro and I. You also fail to mention NQT incorrectly identifying HLG as scum, whilst I was the one correctly guessing HLG was much more likely just being a newby Town. I.e. you're cutting out everything that suggests I'm town and substituting it with nothing but your opinion, which you're certain is sufficient to lynch me on.Fair enough. So how were you able to identify HLG as newbie town but not FoU? You might have mentioned it before, but let's hear it fresh.
Good scumhunting = You are scumI've gone over this already. And that's oversimplifying the point. In the context of a beginner's game, a "newbie" performing strongly is cause for an eyebrow raise. Yes, it's a bit meta. I don't like to rely on meta arguments, but I use the tools that I have.
I haven't interacted with Taro in the sense that I haven't asked Taro many questions, because I'm pretty sure Taro is town.Would you like to elaborate as to why?
I dropped the wall of text because I was done; I had my convictions, I didn't have much spare time - but in truth, even if I did whatever else I could have done wouldn't have surmounted to much, as I had no other hunches beyond FOU.Fair enough if you were out of time. Otherwise it's always good to keep tabs on multiple people as you can. This way you're not left flat-footed when your main target is lynched/killed/cleared/etc.
[No reasons given beyond muh feels]I'm after your scummy ass today. If it means that much to you, I can give you my notes on Tawa.
Plus I do like how any evidence which would verify that I am clearly town is to you, further proof I am scum, so much so that were I to reveal I were cop...Not necessarily. But I really do think you're scum. However, I have had instances where someone whom I am convinced is scum manages to persuade me otherwise. It's good to be firm in your convictions, but one should always be able to re-evaluate everything in light of new information.
[Teneb, I am not a doublevoter.]Sorry. Stuff has been... hectic over here.
Don't worry about it. Shit happens.[Teneb, I am not a doublevoter.]Sorry. Stuff has been... hectic over here.
Second thing coming at a later point; have to do some reading first.You've had a good amount of time for some reading. Ready to do some posting?
Shakerag, are you enjoying your discussion with your scumbuddy Loud Whispers? It's cute how you're accusing each other like this, really.Not surprised by that vote. Two questions (to start, at least):
So, why do you think LW and I are scumbuddies?Ever since you showed up and replaced 4mask, you've focused most of your energy on going after LW. He's done basically the same thing. That wouldn't be too bad on its own, but you've only put real effort on pursuing a player who's been playing well. The argument behind that is WIFOM to the extreme... so you'd think that somebody so experienced at the game would avoid it.
Why do you think two scum, who have avoided lynching until now, would suddenly try bussing each other?4mask wasn't active at all before, so LW didn't have him around long enough or have enough info to make it look like anything other than bussing. Now that you've become active and LW has established his reputation as a fervent scumhunter, disguising it has become possible.
stuff
How do you objectively judge activity? By post count? Because you have him beat 13-6 on that one. And most of his posts were either irrelevant, or focused on (poorly) defending himself from Shakerag. I guess he beat you to posting a reply after Fallacy got lynched, but that post didn't contain anything pertinent to the scumhunt.Well, what he was doing certainly seemed like scumhunting to me. He didn't manage to lynch any scum, but he was looking, or doing a very good job at pretending he was doing so.
Pfp...what? "woft"? "hie"?
I did answer it. Loud whispers has posted 2 woft which is not as useful as constant pressure on scum, which you two hie have provided.
Loud Whispers hasn't been on in five days.I doubt it'll do much good, but I'll prod him.
Went abroad! I am back! The prod is felt! And yes, I am terribly sorry; I did not expect to be so totally occupied and so without wifi.Just inform these things in advance if you can.
Went abroad! I am back! The prod is felt! And yes, I am terribly sorry; I did not expect to be so totally occupied and so without wifi.[Please mention in thread if you're going to be gone for more than a day.]
Crud. Was good run.That's pretty standard for beginner's games, sadly. Activity dies off after a few (game) days, scum win.
I'm signing up for the next one in the hopes that a non-everybody number of people lurk.
I couldn't get any read on you at all.
So, out of curiosity, is there any particular reason the ICs are players? It seems a little... unfair to the town, given the possibility for them to be scum.Leading by example, I presume. I think some of the very earliest beginner's games only had ICs as advisors and not as players. I'd bet there might be discussion of the where and why back then.
I knew it, Urist McCoder! I knew it! I knew it!
How scummy was I coming across as?Hard to say, since H4z gave it away long before that anyway.
wow reading back through that me and fallacyofurist really do look like a scum team :-\
fallacyofurist your answer seems honest and heartfelt so I am going with my gut unvote.
First I will address why I have not defended my self. The only way to prove that I am town is if we have a cop or if I get lynched. So I don't want to waste time trying to prove something I know to be true, when I my argument will likely be ineffectual.
-snip-
And while I think lurking is worse , I don't necessarily think it is a scum tell
...and how it is literally the worst possible thing (besides outright claiming to be scum I guess but that would never happen).
Self
On that note, can we please talk about...and how it is literally the worst possible thing (besides outright claiming to be scum I guess but that would never happen).
Self
A town player has literally no motivation to vote for themselves, and scum only have the motivation of doing it to try and look like they don't care, which is still a terrible way to do it.
On that note, can we please talk aboutVoting yourself is a terrible idea but its not a scumtell. Voting yourself is not playing to win and neither scum nor town benefit in any way from a self vote. I've rarely ever seen a scum player vote themselves before, and it is more common that it occurs in new players who are stressed out with the game....and how it is literally the worst possible thing (besides outright claiming to be scum I guess but that would never happen).
Self
A town player has absolutely no motivation to vote for themselves, and scum only have the motivation of doing it to try and look like they don't care, which is still a terrible way to do it. It is in effect a perfect scumtell, seeing as how the only possible benefit for the player would be if they were scum trying to make themselves look pitiable or actually not concerned for their own survival.
That says scum.
Note in the first post, one of the rules is "play to win". I hope that doesn't count as quoting the mod, but I don't thank it should. That defense is- that isn't a defense.
You could have logiced it out, tried to actually fight for your survival. Instead... you just gave up. That, plus a double dose of passiveness, marks you as scum. This makes me want to keep my vote on you even more.
This is likely your last chance to logically explain why you are not scum instead of being passive noobscum. Please, explain thoroughly, or suffer the consequences.
That isn't a defence. A defence would look at your actions before now and your motives doing them to show that it's things that it wouldn't make sense for scum to do.Giving up when facing a lynch is not a scumtell, its an inevitable response to an untenable situation. Could he have gone out better, yes. But his giving up and claiming his role is not a scumtell.
Then again, that might be hard for you since a good portion of your posts so far have been bordering on shitposting, or at the very least of no real substance in terms of trying to root out the match fixers. Instead you just kind of weakly recycle arguments like you want to stay out of it. You're doing that right now, even. I don't know if you thought that giving up would make people think you're town, but it won't.
Ninjad: And this ended up being pretty much what Fallacy said.
Giving up when facing a lynch is not a scumtell, its an inevitable response to an untenable situation. Could he have gone out better, yes. But his giving up and claiming his role is not a scumtell.This, newbies. Y'all should discern when the real speaker are your emotions [which may play a bias towards the person in question] or your rationality [which is independent of temporal effects in order to make a critical judgement].
When will there be another Beginner's Mafia game?You mean this one (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=152897.0) that has also finished. Also, we have a beginner thread. It is stickied at the top of the board.
To be fair, the beginners' thread is out of date, as it links to this thread as the "current game".When will there be another Beginner's Mafia game?You mean this one (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=152897.0) that has also finished. Also, we have a beginner thread. It is stickied at the top of the board.
Ah, I am probably a better mod then player, after all, I love reading random threads in this section, any opposed to me doing this?We've got an open BM (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=153468.0) already.