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Other Projects => Other Games => Play With Your Buddies => Topic started by: E. Albright on May 24, 2015, 04:55:24 pm

Title: Dominions 4 Round Fifteen: More NationGen [Game Ended]
Post by: E. Albright on May 24, 2015, 04:55:24 pm
(http://i1364.photobucket.com/albums/r734/Image_buffer/09e_prev_zpsmafwtow0.png) (http://s1364.photobucket.com/user/Image_buffer/media/09e_prev_zpsmafwtow0.png.html)(http://i1364.photobucket.com/albums/r734/Image_buffer/09e_prev2_zpshakdiq2d.png) (http://s1364.photobucket.com/user/Image_buffer/media/09e_prev2_zpshakdiq2d.png.html)

Link to NationGen:
http://koti.kapsi.fi/~elmokki/dom4/unitgen/

Link to current officious patch (0.5.0.11E, released 20150529):
http://www.desura.com/games/dominions-4-thrones-of-ascensions/forum/thread/nationgen-for-dominions-4/page/13#1046448

Drafting seed: NG 0.5.0.11E seed #394439665 x all defaults x 100 nations

Game name: Bay12GamesRound415 (http://www.llamaserver.net/gameinfo.cgi?game=Bay12GamesRound415)
Map: Biddyn (http://www.desura.com/games/dominions-4-thrones-of-ascensions/forum/thread/biddyn-849-wraparound)
Mods: Nationgen/House of Weather 1.2 (https://mega.co.nz/#!rBtVWRQb!KDS0bn5Q87yzNlZzjhE8CwU1wjCl4qAIhAmCGKHwYFU)
Era: Nationgen/MA
Disciples: No
Time allowance: 30 hours at start, presumably
Special site frequency: 50
Random event frequency: Common
Score graphs: Off
Hall of Fame: 15
Artifact forging limit : Limited
Thrones: 6x1, 3x2, 8/12
Renaming: Allowed
Research: Normal

Players:
1. E. Albright
2. Karlito
3. Darkwind3
4. Il Palazzo
5. Jilladilla
6. AlStar
7. USEC_OFFICER

Backup-ish:
lijacote

Nation selection:

Draft order:


Spoiler: Darkwind3 - Obliheim (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Il Palazzo - Qurghannia (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Karlito - Luha (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: AlStar - Lissikos (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: E. Albright - Djedhur (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: USEC_OFFICER: - Veroor (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Jilladilla - Shansahr (click to show/hide)


Spoiler: Previous rounds (Dom3 & 4) (click to show/hide)

Spoiler: Standard info on Dominions 4 for the uninitiated (click to show/hide)

Spoiler: How does PBEM work? (click to show/hide)

Useful links:
Dom4 forums on Desura (http://www.desura.com/games/dominions-4-thrones-of-ascensions/forum)
Link to Edi's Dom4 Database (http://www.llamaserver.net/edi/dom4/dom4_db/dom4_db_403.zip)
An archived snapshot of the Dom3 wiki (http://web.archive.org/web/20130118162532/http://dom3.servegame.com/wiki/Main_Page): Yes, it's still relevant, and it hasn't been replaced yet, so... It has loads of useful information, including strategy guides. Keep in mind that while a lot of this information is still very useful and valid, a lot of it is entirely out-of-date.

Llama Server (http://llamaserver.net/): the automatic hosting server for our game.
Llama Server's map and mod browser (http://www.llamaserver.net/createDom4Game.cgi) (Yes, it's not really a browser, but you can browse the maps and mods here)
Dom4 Mod Inspector (http://larzm42.github.io/dom4inspector/) Very useful. You can browse all the nations, items, spells and sites in the game with it.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round... Fifteen? More NationGen? [Interest check, setup, etc.]
Post by: Karlito on May 24, 2015, 05:02:14 pm
Well count me in, gotta have my revenge against all of you, yada yada...

I'd be fine with another nationgen game.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round... Fifteen? More NationGen? [Interest check, setup, etc.]
Post by: E. Albright on May 24, 2015, 05:05:20 pm
As discussed in the 4.10 thread. So, um, NationGen again? Il Palazzo and Darkwind 3 [edit: and Karlito] have expressed interest. I'd suggest that we not accept inexperienced players unless we do a Disciple game (which could be interesting, but is a lot higher time commitment), as the three [edit: four] volunteers we have so far are crusty old veterans who really shouldn't be left unsupervised with new players. So do we have any other players on the higher end of the experience spectrum? Higher MP experience preferably, but if you're weaselly enough a lot of SP and a good grasp of mechanics can work as a substitute (I personally only have around 7 MP games under my belt, and I can hold my own). Anyway, blah blah blah. Do we have enough interested parties to get this thing going?
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round... Fifteen? More NationGen? [Interest check, setup, etc.]
Post by: Darkwind3 on May 24, 2015, 05:42:46 pm
I'm definitely interested. I can't wait to swarm the world to put the Vaettir where they belong, on top! Or whichever species I happen to play; I'm not picky.

Another thing you might want to note is that Dominions front-loads a lot of its strategy (in pretender creation) and NationGen front-loads even more of it (with both pretender and nation creation). Bad pretender choice can ruin a player's game, and while I haven't seen wild swings in power with nations in NationGen, I also haven't been looking for them. I'm sure it's possible for a new player to accidentally trap themselves with a poorly-chosen nation even if they improve as the game goes on.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round... Fifteen? More NationGen? [Interest check, setup, etc.]
Post by: E. Albright on May 24, 2015, 05:48:30 pm
That's a good point, and one I'd meant to mention but forgot. NG does tend to be a bit more demanding than vanilla Dom because it takes some experience or strong grasp of mechanics to recognize what is and isn't a good nation, or whether a bunch of positive elements synergize together to make an unstoppable juggernaut instead of tripping over each other to make an unstartable jalopy.

So yeah, that's another point in favor of comfortably experienced players only unless we do disciples.

Oh, and the wild swings in power ARE there, even if they're not as dramatic as they were in Dom3. I've made probably as many NG nations as anyone and I've definitely seen some abominations. More novice deathtraps than abominations, but the abominations are there. And, um, since I kinda fixed the data bug that was keeping units from getting Awe added when they had Awe-granting filters, there's some more weight on the overpowering side of the balance spectrum with the new patch...
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round... Fifteen? More NationGen? [Interest check, setup, etc.]
Post by: Darkwind3 on May 24, 2015, 06:14:45 pm
I've been tooling around with the newest version of NationGen and I've already generated a nation that is Eriu if Sidhe Lords were A2N1?1(AWEN) for exactly the same cost, and also if Eriu had amphiptere cavalry. Suffice it to say that I am hype.

e: the cap-only mages are A3H3?2(WEN), with the random linked. It's beautiful. They should have sent a poet.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round... Fifteen? More NationGen? [Interest check, setup, etc.]
Post by: lijacote on May 25, 2015, 05:08:14 am
I'm hypothetically interested, but my track record for the last game was very staley. I am unsure I will be really interested in keeping up. I have lost my touch with the community. :(
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round... Fifteen? More NationGen? [Interest check, setup, etc.]
Post by: Jilladilla on May 25, 2015, 05:39:38 am
Can I join in on this? While I'm not exactly a MP vet, I'm holding off a 3v1 in another game so I feel that I won't go down too easily.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round... Fifteen? More NationGen? [Interest check, setup, etc.]
Post by: Il Palazzo on May 25, 2015, 07:40:20 am
Yes, I'm in.
I don't know about my vet-cred anymore, though. Every time I open a turn in 413 to see the reports I'm thinking to myself: I've gone senile.

Speaking of senile, somebody has got to gently walk me and other natgen semi-newbies through the process of choosing a nation. Do we submit our own? Do we generate a batch and do a round-robin, or what?
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round... Fifteen? More NationGen? [Interest check, setup, etc.]
Post by: E. Albright on May 25, 2015, 11:33:03 am
I'd like to do a draft again, yeah. It evens the playing field a bit and cuts the cheese down to a more reasonable level. It also rewards insight and knowledge of mechanics over sheer patience. :p

Once we figure out how many players we have/want, and settle on an era, I'll generate a seed with at least 10x the nations we have players (or maybe just 100), we'll draft two nations then nix one of our neightbors', and we should be read to go.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round... Fifteen? More NationGen? [Interest check, setup, etc.]
Post by: Karlito on May 25, 2015, 01:10:56 pm
Quote from: Il Palazzo on May 25, 2015, 07:40:20 am
Yes, I'm in.
I don't know about my vet-cred anymore, though. Every time I open a turn in 413 to see the reports I'm thinking to myself: I've gone senile.

Tell me about it. I may be getting crusty hanging around in these threads too often, but I've been thinking lately that maybe I'm not actually that good at Dominions. Certainly I've never been able to repeat the success I had in Dominions 3 Round 7...
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round... Fifteen? More NationGen? [Interest check, setup, etc.]
Post by: Il Palazzo on May 25, 2015, 01:21:35 pm
Having generated a few nations, I have to say my favourite units are Hoburgs in clockwork power armour. Although winged Avvim, lizard runners riding crocodiles, and Vaettis brandishing jotun axes are not bad either.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round... Fifteen? More NationGen? [Interest check, setup, etc.]
Post by: AlStar on May 25, 2015, 04:24:51 pm
I'm interested in this - sign me up.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round... Fifteen? More NationGen? [Interest check, setup, etc.]
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on May 25, 2015, 07:21:25 pm
Yeah, I'm definitely joining this if you guys will have me. Nationgen is pretty exciting, and the new patch seems pretty awesome.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round... Fifteen? More NationGen? [Interest check, setup, etc.]
Post by: E. Albright on May 25, 2015, 08:27:10 pm
We need to figure out how many players we want. My minimum would have been 6, my max is... say... 12, though that would be excessive, and I doubt we'll clear 10. So how many more are we looking for? My goal is to get the drafting done and have the game ready to start in a week, though I'd be okay with 10 days. I'm actually not in a massive hurry with this; given how long the games take, I'm more than a little okay with due deliberation setting things up, especially when it's complicated like NG is...

I'm looking to push out a quickfix 0.5.0.10E in the next day or two to address some data issues that came to light. Only a tiny bit of content changes, and those will be superficial I think, so the current patch is probably accurately indicative of what we'll be using.

Oh, and we might want to start thinking about era preferences. The differences aren't huge, but this shows roughly what distros are... although I made this early last week, before the 4 slaver race variants were even a gleam in my eye, so they're not listed. But aside from them:

Spoiler: Rough breakdown of primary races by eras, excluding slavekeepers (click to show/hide)

Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round... Fifteen? More NationGen? [Recruiting, setup, etc.]
Post by: Karlito on May 25, 2015, 11:27:12 pm
Yeah, those pie graphs are not really readable. I kind of want to lean toward the early age, for the slightly lower proportion of humans to other things, but then again I do like having indy scouts...

If you're putting out an update in a couple days, then I'd say keep sign-ups open until then, and then generate up a nation batch that we can sift through.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round... Fifteen? More NationGen? [Recruiting, setup, etc.]
Post by: E. Albright on May 26, 2015, 12:21:58 am
Slightly more readable graphs: http://i1364.photobucket.com/albums/r734/Image_buffer/NG_zps2gojfadr.png~original

And technically, I could put out the fix-em-up-date right now; waiting a couple of days will on the plus side give me a chance to get/fix a few more bug reports, but on the minus side will tempt me to muuch - erm, muck - about with new content. But yeah, for the moment we can troll a bit longer for players...
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round... Fifteen? More NationGen? [Recruiting, setup, etc.]
Post by: Karlito on May 26, 2015, 12:53:23 am
Quote from: E. Albright on May 26, 2015, 12:21:58 am
Slightly more readable graphs: http://i1364.photobucket.com/albums/r734/Image_buffer/NG_zps2gojfadr.png~original

The image quality was fine. What I meant was, there are so many colors and most change by only a few percentage points that its difficult to parse any real information from the charts. :/
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round... Fifteen? More NationGen? [Recruiting, setup, etc.]
Post by: E. Albright on May 26, 2015, 01:39:33 am
Spoiler: As inaccurate or out-of-date as the charts, but more legible (click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round... Fifteen? More NationGen? [Recruiting, setup, etc.]
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on May 26, 2015, 03:48:25 am
Just popping in to reaffirm that I'll be skipping this one.

Enjoy yourselves, and if one of you could avenge Agor that'd be grand.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round... Fifteen? More NationGen? [Recruiting, setup, etc.]
Post by: Darkwind3 on May 26, 2015, 05:20:23 am
EA definitely produces more non-human nations, but it seems like MA produces a more even distribution overall (but with more humans). I'd be fine with either, leaning slightly towards MA.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round... Fifteen? More NationGen? [Recruiting, setup, etc.]
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on May 26, 2015, 07:03:53 am
Yeah, I'd say that going with MA is probably our best plan. If we generate 100 nations to pick from like last time, then we should get a nice distribution of different races to choose from. Also indie scouts, which are just as important.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round... Fifteen? More NationGen? [Recruiting, setup, etc.]
Post by: Il Palazzo on May 26, 2015, 07:13:51 am
MA here too. It's got the most Hoburgs!


By the way, can we agree on one house rule before we start? No assassins with skull talismans?
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round... Fifteen? More NationGen? [Recruiting, setup, etc.]
Post by: E. Albright on May 26, 2015, 12:14:10 pm
I personally don't have a problem with that; they're way too effective for how inexpensive and low-research they are. Plus, banning them would mean that I don't "have" to have death and national assassins, so I'd have more freedom in nation selection. :p

Another point in favor of MA which may or may not be significant at the end of the week-ish is that canonically, MA is the era with the most muuch... *ominous music*

(Have I mentioned how little damned restraint and focus I have when it comes to NG?)
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round... Fifteen? More NationGen? [Recruiting, setup, etc.]
Post by: Il Palazzo on May 26, 2015, 12:22:10 pm
Am I reading this right, E.Albright? NG is actually your brainchild? Or have you taken over development from somebody else?
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round... Fifteen? More NationGen? [Recruiting, setup, etc.]
Post by: E. Albright on May 26, 2015, 01:07:28 pm
It's the brainchild of a certain Elmokki, but I'm involved collaboratively. I've been contributing content since last summer, and out-and-out pushing updates since last September (the 0.5.0.xxE branch). I've mostly done graphics and data updates (Amazons, Sobek, Icthyid, Cavemen, Avvim, Margoni humans, Vaettir, Avvim, and Humanbreds in toto, but everything outside of Sidhe that's been added since 0.5.0 has been my fault), with only a little bit of coding, but Elmokki has found themself with more free time from their studies as of this week, so they're stepping back in more actively ATM. I'll still continue muddling along as well, though.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round Fifteen: More NationGen [Last call for player recruitment]
Post by: E. Albright on May 28, 2015, 05:01:54 pm
A'ight, so, it looks like we have 7 definites. And I've finished everything but mage definitions on muuch. So there should be a patch tonight or tomorrow, then we can start drafting.

We'll go with the players we have, but we still have room for a few more. So, peanut gallery, speak up in the next 24h or so if you want in...

[And to my fellow players, give some thought to map suggestions in the 7-9 player range, if you please...]
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round Fifteen: More NationGen [Last call for player recruitment]
Post by: Karlito on May 28, 2015, 05:40:51 pm
Steamlands, Realm of Rampaging Roaches, and Big Black Peaks are all about in the right range, depending on the presence of uw nations.

And of course there's always Peliwyr. :P
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round Fifteen: More NationGen [Last call for player recruitment]
Post by: Il Palazzo on May 28, 2015, 05:47:22 pm
Yeah, I was thinking Big Black Peaks as well.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round Fifteen: More NationGen [Last call for player recruitment]
Post by: E. Albright on May 28, 2015, 05:52:44 pm
The current NG has no UW nations, only amphibious ones. So while Agarthans and various breeds of Atlantians might appreciate more or less water, we don't technically need any particular amount regardless of nation composition. Though likewise, Agarthans, zotz, and some Atlantians and Abysians would appreciate caves as well.

Also, ugh, I really don't wanna do Peliwyr. Do not want, do not like. If popular opinion is dead-set on it we can do it, but...

If we're looking to do the scanter edge of province-per-player ratios, does anyone have thoughts on Biddyn or Atha Avin? 81+10 and 81+9, respectively...
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round Fifteen: More NationGen [Last call for player recruitment]
Post by: Karlito on May 28, 2015, 05:55:58 pm
I was mostly joking, since my last three games used that map. Though Pymous does have a smaller map in the same style (http://www.desura.com/games/dominions-4-thrones-of-ascensions/forum/thread/biddyn-849-wraparound).

Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round Fifteen: More NationGen [Last call for player recruitment]
Post by: E. Albright on May 28, 2015, 05:58:17 pm
*Two smaller maps in the same style. :p you forgot Atha Avin.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round Fifteen: More NationGen [Last call for player recruitment]
Post by: Il Palazzo on May 28, 2015, 06:01:00 pm
Biddyn looks nice. I'd vote for this one.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round Fifteen: More NationGen [Last call for player recruitment]
Post by: Karlito on May 28, 2015, 06:02:56 pm
Quote from: E. Albright on May 28, 2015, 05:58:17 pm
*Two smaller maps in the same style. :p you forgot Atha Avin.
That one isn't endorsed by our Vice President.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round Fifteen: More NationGen [Last call for player recruitment]
Post by: E. Albright on May 29, 2015, 12:58:07 am

(http://i1364.photobucket.com/albums/r734/Image_buffer/pv_zpszrz0uz06.png)

Okay, barring any unforeseen catastrophic awfulness that snuck in necessitating a quick-turnaround 0.5.0.11E, we have our NG patch (http://www.desura.com/games/dominions-4-thrones-of-ascensions/forum/thread/nationgen-for-dominions-4/page/13#1046073) for the game.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round Fifteen: More NationGen [Last call for player recruitment]
Post by: Karlito on May 29, 2015, 12:40:45 pm
Cool, you want to give us a seed?
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round Fifteen: More NationGen [Last call for player recruitment]
Post by: E. Albright on May 29, 2015, 03:07:05 pm
0.5.0.11E: http://www.desura.com/games/dominions-4-thrones-of-ascensions/forum/thread/nationgen-for-dominions-4/page/13#1046448

A couple of quick fixes, including something that's been bugging me (and probably me alone :p) since last summer.

I'll pull up an MA seed for us in an hour or three.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round Fifteen: More NationGen [Last call for player recruitment]
Post by: E. Albright on May 29, 2015, 04:15:54 pm
All right, I give you NG 0.5.0.11E (http://www.desura.com/games/dominions-4-thrones-of-ascensions/forum/thread/nationgen-for-dominions-4/page/13#1046448) seed #394439665, Wicked Desert.

Generate this locally with all default settings, to include MA, and with 100 nations. Then go ahead and start having a look-see and figure out which ones interest you. On Sunday or Monday at the latest, I'll randomly generate a round-robin draft order, and we'll do two rounds of selection, and one round of playing spoiler and nixing the worst of our neighbors' sins.

Edit: if you absolutely must look at the nations from within Dominions right from the get-go, use the following three subsets of seeds below to generate mods of size 40, 40, and 20, which will let you review all 100 nations piecemail.

Spoiler: 1-40 (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: 41-80 (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: 81-100 (click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round Fifteen: More NationGen [Last call for player recruitment]
Post by: Il Palazzo on May 29, 2015, 04:35:23 pm
Nagot gick fel (or whatever): too many sprites in a mod
:( what do?
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round Fifteen: More NationGen [Last call for player recruitment]
Post by: Karlito on May 29, 2015, 04:41:07 pm
You'll need to chop the generated mod up, I guess. It should be able to handle 33 nations at a time or whatever. I'll use the mod inspector tool and the generated text files to narrow down my choices before I want to load them up in game anyway.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round Fifteen: More NationGen [Last call for player recruitment]
Post by: E. Albright on May 29, 2015, 04:41:27 pm
Yeah, it's too big to load in Dominions. Use the description/.dm files to browse and pick likely candidate nations (or open it in the Mod Inspector (http://larzm42.github.io/dom4inspector/?page=unit&panes=armor+206@20@5&showids=1&showmodcmds=1&showmoddinginfo=1&showkeys=1&unittype=5&unitnat=1&wpnq=620&unitq=chariot&selectmods=1), though last time we found that for reasons unknown there were a few units that never showed up); once you have one or two nations you like, open the .dm, find their individual nation seed right at the top, then specify that seed on the second NG tab to generate a subset mod for a more manageable number of nations.

[Edit: I'm usually fine up to at least 40. If you want to look at a whole bunch at once, you can look at the first 40 by only generating that many with the given seed and loading the resulting mod; they'll be the same as the first 40 of the full 100-nation mod. That won't help you see the other 60, though... :p]
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round Fifteen: More NationGen [Last call for player recruitment]
Post by: E. Albright on May 29, 2015, 04:48:17 pm
Having skimmed the mod in an extremely superficial way, I'm relatively pleased with the outcome. Looking only at coarse-grained classifications, our national breakdown is as follows:

Code: [Select]
Type  Primary races Secondary races
Human 38 17
Lizard 9 9
Atlantian 3 3
Agarthan 9 2
Hoburg 3 4
Abysian 8 6
Caelian 7 0
Ape 11 6
Zotz 0 0
Fomorian 6 2
Van 1 4
Sidhe 0 0
Ichtyid 2 0
Avvite 2 3
Vaetti 1 1
Caveman NA 3
So only zotz and sidhe are missing, which isn't too bad.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round Fifteen: More NationGen [Last call for player recruitment]
Post by: Il Palazzo on May 29, 2015, 04:51:27 pm
D: I have to put work in my fun?

Can I, like, delete some stuff in the .dm file so as to look only at a batch of nations?
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round Fifteen: More NationGen [Last call for player recruitment]
Post by: Karlito on May 29, 2015, 04:57:14 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

That's a list of only the nation seeds. Take a fraction of that list and paste it into the box in the NationGen options tab to generate a mod with only a fraction of the nations.

On an unrelated note, for a more casual nationgen experience in the future we could come up with some kind of hashing scheme to transform say, our usernames, into nation seeds and then immediately try to have a game with whatever terrible results emerge.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round Fifteen: More NationGen [Last call for player recruitment]
Post by: E. Albright on May 29, 2015, 05:13:39 pm
Hehe. I like the inherent awfulness of that idea. Another day I might just be interested in that...

I added three lists to the post where I gave the seed; they split the nation-seeds into digestable chunks of 40, 40, and 20 that can be used to generate 3 separate mods if you want to go that route for unit review. Do be aware that not all unit abilities will be described in-game, particularly shapechanging abilities. These are, however, laid out in the Advanced Descriptions file, and of course the .dm.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round Fifteen: More NationGen [Last call for player recruitment]
Post by: E. Albright on May 29, 2015, 05:43:02 pm
Also, I've only just started digging, but I've already found one error. Sanawahi is supposed to have recruitable hydra hatchlings but instead has... something else. Grr... it looks like there were some further problems with hydras and co. after all. Anyway, if a nation has a weird monster that you don't recognize that costs 35g, it'll be replaced with hydra hatchlings if you choose that nation, and if it costs 250g, it'll be replaced with full-grown hydra.

...grr, and cavemen [and Burning Ones, and Sleepers, and Colossi... ah, the joys of cut-and-paste errors...] with Dancing Tridents are supposed to have Leather Hoods. Well, no, technically they're not supposed to have anything, but NG tried to give them Leather Hoods against my wishes only to be thwarted by my absent-mindedly forgetting to specify that their item ID #121 is armor, not a weapon...
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round Fifteen: More NationGen [Last call for player recruitment]
Post by: AlStar on May 29, 2015, 06:34:56 pm
I'm feeling very dumb, but how do I get Nationgen to actually do stuff?

I don't see any .exe file, the readme doesn't contain any actual instructions for starting it. Nationgen.jar feels like it should do something, but is opening in WinRAR.

Little help?
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round Fifteen: More NationGen [Last call for player recruitment]
Post by: Karlito on May 29, 2015, 06:47:34 pm
You just need to open Nationgen.jar with Java, and if your computer doesn't have Java, you'll need to install it.

You'll often run into problems with .jars and overzealous file extraction programs for whatever reason.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round Fifteen: More NationGen [Last call for player recruitment]
Post by: E. Albright on May 29, 2015, 06:47:52 pm
Well, this is not en entirely surprising turn of events; technically .jar files are Java ARchive files. Make sure you have Java (http://java.com/en/download/) installed. Then make sure that Java is opening NationGen.jar instead of that licentious harlot, WinRAR. That's pretty much all there is to it. Lemme know if you need this explained in more excruciating detail; I'm willing, but would rather spare both of us that unless truly necessary...
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round Fifteen: More NationGen [Last call for player recruitment]
Post by: AlStar on May 29, 2015, 08:27:24 pm
Figured it out - needed to update/reinstall Java. Seems to be working now. Thanks!

edit: The fact that there's such a thing as a "fish thrower" alone makes all this trouble worthwhile.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round Fifteen: More NationGen [Last call for player recruitment]
Post by: E. Albright on May 29, 2015, 09:18:39 pm
Yes, well, you have no idea how close I came to having ichtyids throw turtles. I mean, I went so far as to make graphics and work out stats for them before my last few shreds of decency dug in and said no...
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round Fifteen: More NationGen [Last call for player recruitment]
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on May 29, 2015, 09:20:04 pm
D-Do we even have to go through drafts? Because I'm looking at Nefton right now and if this isn't love then it's at least very strong attraction. I mean, they have bear and crocodile cavalry! And giant assassins! How can you not like that? I know that they have problems, like their lack of good shields and ranged units, but I'm certain that I can make things work out. Assuming that nobody claims them before me or vetos them, of course. Please don't. It would break my heart.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round Fifteen: More NationGen [Last call for player recruitment]
Post by: E. Albright on May 29, 2015, 10:01:28 pm
Brace your heart for possible disappointment, because they definitely were on my shortlist, and I'm pretty sure they were on other people's too.

Admittedly, my "short" list is 25 long, so that doesn't mean quite as much as it might under other circumstances...
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round Fifteen: More NationGen [Preparing to draft]
Post by: AlStar on May 30, 2015, 07:08:34 am
Minor bug, which doesn't affect anything:
Although the unit names take into account gender (MA Myrmania has good examples with its High Crone and Mud Lady), the descriptions of those units does not (High Crone is called a High Elder, Mud Lady is called a Mud Lord.)

Edit:

It might just be fatigue setting in, but did anyone else notice that the nations in the first ~1/3rd of the list seemed overall better than those in the final 2/3rds? There were a couple of exceptions, of course, but I feel like my list of possibilities has a lot more names from the top.

Edit^2: Luha's cheapest troop costs 31 resources, and their sacred are a mighty 73!
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round Fifteen: More NationGen [Preparing to draft]
Post by: E. Albright on May 30, 2015, 10:09:09 am
I know exactly what's happening with the inconsistent descriptions, but I'm not sure I'm going to do anything about it. The issue is something that has broader ramifications, but right now the only place that it's seen is in the priest/commander madlibs... and those were a temporary addition arising from an hour or two of whimsy when I'd originally intended to just go in and make them output "No description" so that we'd no longer have e.g. NG Atlantian or zotz "warlords" receiving the vanilla Abysian Warlord description in-game.

I can't control for fatigue since I, too, started at the beginning, but my impression was also that quality decreased as we worked up through the numbers. I was dogearing every second or third nation at the start, but by the end I could go 4-5 nations w/o even having my interest mildly piqued...
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round Fifteen: More NationGen [Preparing to draft]
Post by: AlStar on May 30, 2015, 02:23:34 pm
Man, slowly working my way through playing my list of possible choices.

Of the 16 nations that I originally thought looked interesting from the Mod Inspector, I'd call:
4 first tier.
3 second tier.
6 third tier.
2 "nope."
With 1 left to try out.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round Fifteen: More NationGen [Preparing to draft]
Post by: E. Albright on May 31, 2015, 09:31:13 am
My 25 came out around 3 1st, 8 2nd, 10 3rd, 2 nope.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round Fifteen: More NationGen [Preparing to draft]
Post by: Darkwind3 on May 31, 2015, 11:01:54 am
My 26 came out to around 6 1st tier, 6 2nd, 8 3rd, and 6 nope. Maybe I have generous standards for top-tier picks?

I imagine we're mostly talking about the same nations. I might write up a little bit about the nations I looked at as candidates and why I was interested in them (e: and maybe a bit about what I looked for). After the draft, of course! I don't want anyone else sniping my precious top-tier choices if no one else noticed them, somehow. The joke's on you guys, you tipped me off on Nefton!

The A3 Avvim recruitables would have led me to them regardless, but the point stands.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round Fifteen: More NationGen [Preparing to draft]
Post by: E. Albright on May 31, 2015, 01:10:07 pm
Can I get all would-be players to let me know when they've had enough time to review nations so we can get the draft started ASAP?
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round Fifteen: More NationGen [Preparing to draft]
Post by: Darkwind3 on May 31, 2015, 01:30:21 pm
I've had enough time to assemble my shortlist. I'm ready to draft.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round Fifteen: More NationGen [Preparing to draft]
Post by: AlStar on May 31, 2015, 02:32:59 pm
I'm good to go.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round Fifteen: More NationGen [Preparing to draft]
Post by: Il Palazzo on May 31, 2015, 02:53:18 pm
Ready to go.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round Fifteen: More NationGen [Preparing to draft]
Post by: Jilladilla on May 31, 2015, 03:28:06 pm
I'm ready. Might not have the OP Super Optimised Nations Of Destiny on my list, but they seem good enough.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round Fifteen: More NationGen [Preparing to draft]
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on May 31, 2015, 06:23:39 pm
I'm ready to start when you guys are. No... My precious Nefton. ;~;
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round Fifteen: More NationGen [Preparing to draft]
Post by: E. Albright on May 31, 2015, 07:27:17 pm
Just waiting on... Karlito now?
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round Fifteen: More NationGen [Preparing to draft]
Post by: Karlito on May 31, 2015, 08:22:05 pm
Okay. Let's go.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round Fifteen: More NationGen [Preparing to draft]
Post by: E. Albright on May 31, 2015, 08:29:16 pm
All righty then! I've pulled a random sequence of 7 from random.org for our draft order. Here it is, done up round-robin style:


Once everyone has picked their two favorite nations, everyone will nix one of the two nations chosen by the next person on the list. So:


(The nixing can happen all at once since sequence isn't necessarily important, although I suppose it could be, hehehe...)


Spoiler: Darkwind3 - Obliheim (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Il Palazzo - Qurghannia (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Karlito - Luha (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: AlStar - Lissikos (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: E. Albright - Djedhur (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: USEC_OFFICER: - Veroor (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Jilladilla - Shansahr (click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round Fifteen: More NationGen [Draft underway]
Post by: Darkwind3 on May 31, 2015, 09:17:22 pm
I'll start off by taking Dobgan (e: seed -1001676910). I may as well dream big! Somebody else can take Nefton (and have it nixed, too, just like Dobgan).
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round Fifteen: More NationGen [Draft underway]
Post by: Il Palazzo on June 01, 2015, 04:48:07 am
Qurghannia,  -1206538117
Power armour brigades ftw!
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round Fifteen: More NationGen [Draft underway]
Post by: Karlito on June 01, 2015, 05:08:13 am
Speaking of dreaming big...

Luha 1103089966


And as a fairly inconsequential aside, one of Luha's national heroes is supposed to have #fear 0 and #heretic, but I don't see any indication of those abilities in-game. Anyone know what's up with that?
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round Fifteen: More NationGen [Draft underway]
Post by: AlStar on June 01, 2015, 06:08:10 am
Lissikos -292053580

As an aside, everyone has managed thus far to pick a nation that I didn't have on my list... although I think that Luha was on my list, but got accidentally erased in a tragic copy-paste accident (I had a couple of those, believe it or not).

edit: Wait, there it is - I had it in my "3rd tier" picks - I found the extreme costs of all the troops to be just too crippling. It'll be interesting to see how you handle it.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round Fifteen: More NationGen [Draft underway]
Post by: Darkwind3 on June 01, 2015, 06:11:24 am
I was thinking the same thing, until you picked Lissikos! Several of the nations I listed had Mystic-style randoms; I think they're a pretty powerful setup for a mage, especially for the cost, and can make an otherwise-unimpressive nation. Not that Lissikos is unimpressive outside of the Lord of the Cult.

e: wording
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round Fifteen: More NationGen [Draft underway]
Post by: AlStar on June 01, 2015, 06:52:08 am
I came for the cheap, potentially very powerful mages (+MM3, +not cap only), but was actually pleased to note that both the lizard light warrior (bite+spear+net) and the lizard warrior of Lissikos (bite+flail) perform very well (against indies, anyway.) Sacreds are a little lackluster, although siege +5 isn't something to sneeze at.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round Fifteen: More NationGen [Draft underway]
Post by: E. Albright on June 01, 2015, 08:37:15 am
Hmm, only one of my three top picks is gone, and we're almost done with the first round. Hmm. Hmm. So the question becomes "Which of the two remaining might actually be unassuming enough to survive four more picks?", with the honest answer being neither, ofc. But one must try. So... let's get cappy:

Djedhur (-1047122704)
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round Fifteen: More NationGen [Draft underway]
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on June 01, 2015, 08:47:34 am
I don't have time to grab the seed right now, but obviously I'm going for Nefton.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round Fifteen: More NationGen [Draft underway]
Post by: lijacote on June 01, 2015, 09:49:26 am
Luha refers to something bad, broken, flawed, weak... in certain Finnish dialect(s). As an adjective, that is. As a noun, it refers to a part of a loom (the specifics of which are a mystery to me), and a fork-spoon. Lusikka-haarukka, fork-spoon. LuHa, luha.

Learn something new every day.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round Fifteen: More NationGen [Draft underway]
Post by: E. Albright on June 01, 2015, 09:59:06 am
Luha = spork? That nation just became substantially more intimidating...
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round Fifteen: More NationGen [Draft underway]
Post by: Jilladilla on June 01, 2015, 01:09:20 pm
Didn't look at the full list but my first choice is Urumsoi -1865227816.

My second choice is...... Shansahr -2115897110.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round Fifteen: More NationGen [Draft underway]
Post by: E. Albright on June 01, 2015, 01:54:56 pm
Quote from: Karlito on June 01, 2015, 05:08:13 am
And as a fairly inconsequential aside, one of Luha's national heroes is supposed to have #fear 0 and #heretic, but I don't see any indication of those abilities in-game. Anyone know what's up with that?

I know exactly what's up with that, and as it won't break seeds to fix it, it'll be fixed in the version we play with.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round Fifteen: More NationGen [Draft underway]
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on June 01, 2015, 07:14:02 pm
I'm going to go with Veroor (-2079095603) for my second pick. Even if Nefton gets nixed, Ape Pythium is still pretty great and their troops are nothing to sneeze at either.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round Fifteen: More NationGen [Draft underway]
Post by: E. Albright on June 01, 2015, 07:37:46 pm
I'll take Sinam (2012634178) for my second choice.

Veroor looked nice. I pegged them as tier-2, and would have been pretty happy with them. Do note that the tier-2 mages with air elementals exist due to a bug with the mage variation code that we're looking to fix at some point, as those sorts of battlesummons are intended for tier-3 only. NationGen may only be "NationGen balanced", but even it has its limits. But do enjoy their unbalanced awfulness for this game. Well, maybe. Lemme think about that... :p

You can nix one of your neighbors' choices as soon as they have two, BTW. You don't have to, and can wait until everyone has picked both, or you can go ahead all willy-nilly. Personally, I'll hold off on making/ruining USEC_OFFICER's day for the moment while pondering which of their abominations looks more abominable.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round Fifteen: More NationGen [Draft underway]
Post by: AlStar on June 01, 2015, 07:46:04 pm
Hmm, I've actually got all 3 of my other top picks...

Ninja Turtles and Abysians, Spider Cav in full plate, or cheap mages and an army where everyone gets a javelin? Hmm...

Fuck it. Let's go with the Ninja Turtles and Abysians: Zawtep -1367155203

Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round Fifteen: More NationGen [Draft underway]
Post by: Karlito on June 01, 2015, 07:53:22 pm
Apollpos 1991027251

13 prec composite bowwoman goodness.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round Fifteen: More NationGen [Draft underway]
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on June 01, 2015, 08:11:56 pm
Quote from: E. Albright on June 01, 2015, 07:37:46 pm
Veroor looked nice. I pegged them as tier-2, and would have been pretty happy with them. Do note that the tier-2 mages with air elementals exist due to a bug with the mage variation code that we're looking to fix at some point, as those sorts of battlesummons are intended for tier-3 only. NationGen may only be "NationGen balanced", but even it has its limits. But do enjoy their unbalanced awfulness for this game. Well, maybe. Lemme think about that... :p

Veroor has nice communionable priest-mages and decent troops. I would have liked some Earth magic on them because it's a great path to have, but I still like them despite that problem. Hence why I picked them in the first place. Though admittedly I'm looking back through my list of choices and there's some other good nations to choose from. Oh well, too late to change anything now, I'll just have to suffer with the air elementals.

Also I'll come up with my veto tomorrow. Probably.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round Fifteen: More NationGen [Draft underway]
Post by: AlStar on June 01, 2015, 08:15:55 pm
Quote from: Karlito on June 01, 2015, 07:53:22 pm
Apollpos 1991027251

13 prec composite bowwoman goodness.

I like that you get the choice of either composite bow or short bow archers, as if you'd ever choose to go with the short bow ones just to save 1 res.

edit:

Overall, I fear big air nations more than big fire nations, and Sinam has a mage that can get A5, one that can get A4, and one that can get A3 - and even if we discount 10%s, we're still looking at A4s and A3s.

Admittedly, I'm trading no sacred troops at all for a gift of waterbreathing, sailing giant... but everything in Djedhur is  expensive enough that I'll just have to bank on you bankrupting yourself before you become sufficiently scary.

So, in conclusion:
Djedhur ✓
Sinam ✗
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round Fifteen: More NationGen [Draft underway]
Post by: E. Albright on June 01, 2015, 08:32:47 pm
No sacred troops at all? You mean for whatever reason you didn't see Sinam's recruit-anywhere glamour tiger-cavalry? Must be because they're stealthy.

Spoiler: There's ALWAYS a sacred... (click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round Fifteen: More NationGen [Draft underway]
Post by: AlStar on June 01, 2015, 08:34:05 pm
Well then, all the more reason to not give them to you.  :P
(But yeah, they don't show up in the Mod Inspector - I wonder if there were any other interesting nations I passed up because of that)
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round Fifteen: More NationGen [Draft underway]
Post by: E. Albright on June 01, 2015, 08:37:37 pm
Well, if we're starting the nixing... sorry, USEC_OFFICER, but as miserable as apes with air elementals is going to be, I don't think everyone else would forgive me if I unleashed A3 recruit-everywhere Avvim with Awe on the world. No Nefton for you.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round Fifteen: More NationGen [Draft underway]
Post by: E. Albright on June 01, 2015, 08:38:47 pm
Yeah, we had that issue last time where certain nations would be missing troops in the mod inspector - mostly sacreds. Possibly only sacreds.

(Incidentally, before all this started I figured that managing to draft Sinam was nothing more or less than a guarantee I'd get my other nation, whatever it happened to be. Besides their sacreds and the potential A5s, they have a mystic chassis, an H3, and everything but the potential A5s are recruit anywhere...)
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round Fifteen: More NationGen [Draft underway]
Post by: Karlito on June 01, 2015, 08:44:31 pm
Yeah, I had the same problem last time with my drafting of a nation with recruitable S5's.

I'm going to veto Zawtep. Liking my odds against the lizards a lot more, whichever nation gets picked.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round Fifteen: More NationGen [Draft underway]
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on June 01, 2015, 08:48:19 pm
Quote from: E. Albright on June 01, 2015, 08:37:37 pm
No Nefton for you.

No... My Nefton. ;~;
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round Fifteen: More NationGen [Draft underway]
Post by: Il Palazzo on June 02, 2015, 12:10:39 am
Eh, I really wanted to take Akuaku to ensure mechanized hoburgs no matter what, but they're just so horribad.
So I'm taking Shela (321942488), because van cavalry and 2 forge bonus are nice, but it's the fact that they have units called 'Rhubarb Avenger' and 'Rhubarb Master' that makes the nation for me.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round Fifteen: More NationGen [Draft underway]
Post by: Darkwind3 on June 02, 2015, 05:30:30 am
I'll round it all off with Obliheim (-2033449213), because a nation with recruitable Rain of Stones casters that can Cloud Trapeze sounds enjoyable. And blood magic lategame!

This means I got my #1 pick and one of the nations that were roughly tied for #2. Most of the nations you picked I didn't even look at. Were the things I was looking for just crazy? I guess after the elimination is done I'll see if I can't write up a bit about my top picks and what I was looking for.

(For the record, the nations picked that were on my list were Lissikos, Nefton, Sinam and Shela.)

e: I'm going to take a little while to determine which nation to nix. Expect your deliverance and/or crushing, abject despondence tonight, Il Palazzo!
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round Fifteen: More NationGen [Draft underway]
Post by: Il Palazzo on June 02, 2015, 06:22:20 am
Quote from: Darkwind3 on June 02, 2015, 05:30:30 am
e: I'm going to take a little while to determine which nation to nix. Expect your deliverance and/or crushing, abject despondence tonight, Il Palazzo!
Take into your consideration that I just love the flavour of Qurghannia, so should you end up having to decide on a toss of a coin, maybe you'll do the nice thing and let me play with Hoburg mechanized infantry.


As for me, I'm against boring nations, so you get to keep your first choice, Karlito! (Apollopos disappears into oblivion).
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round Fifteen: More NationGen [Draft underway]
Post by: AlStar on June 02, 2015, 06:30:24 am
In case anyone's curious, here was the rest of my list (with my notes):
Spoiler: Top Tier (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: 2nd Tier (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: 3rd Tier (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Nope. (click to show/hide)

And as a bonus, I took note that Palalm had 1S1D MV3 Assassins, but never got around to checking out what the rest of the roster looked like.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round Fifteen: More NationGen [Draft underway]
Post by: E. Albright on June 02, 2015, 08:58:08 am
Spoiler: My "short list" (click to show/hide)

The differences between *, *1/2, and ** are kinda blurry, not least because I only added  *1/2 partway through. All these are fairly impressionistic, and bad luck while playing 1-10 turns with those that I actually tried briefly might have soured me on good nations (or the inverse may have charmed me with bad ones).
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round Fifteen: More NationGen [Draft underway]
Post by: E. Albright on June 02, 2015, 11:54:24 am
Quote from: Il Palazzo on June 02, 2015, 06:22:20 am
Take into your consideration that I just love the flavour of Qurghannia, so should you end up having to decide on a toss of a coin, maybe you'll do the nice thing and let me play with Hoburg mechanized infantry.

FWIW, I never did add as many "special" options to the oversized exoskeletons as I'd meant to, and have always vaguely intended to go back and add more. The top of the list would be two-shot, short-range offhand flame or poison gas throwers...
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round Fifteen: More NationGen [Draft underway]
Post by: Karlito on June 02, 2015, 02:09:22 pm
Quote from: Il Palazzo on June 02, 2015, 06:22:20 am
As for me, I'm against boring nations, so you get to keep your first choice, Karlito! (Apollopos disappears into oblivion).

This game will either be amazing or disastrous for me.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round Fifteen: More NationGen [Draft underway]
Post by: Jilladilla on June 02, 2015, 05:10:22 pm
You sure aren't making this easy on me Darkwind... Vanir capable of spamming turn 1 Rain of Stones or Fomorians who have some ludicrously powerful cap-only mages? This will take time I feel...
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round Fifteen: More NationGen [Draft underway]
Post by: Darkwind3 on June 02, 2015, 06:23:15 pm
It seems as if nobody else noticed Dobgan (or posted about noticing it, anyways; I certainly wanted to keep all my tier 1 choices secret). I'm astonished, honestly.

Before I write a bit about my top choices, I'd like to note that nobody picked any of my Tier 1 choices. This leads me to believe I was looking for very different things than everyone else. I might have simply been searching differently, though.
Spoiler: Tier 1 (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Tier 2 (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Tier 3 (click to show/hide)
There were nine other nations I examined (including Lissikos) and am not going to bother to write up. They would be Tier 4, and I'm sure you can see my enthusiasm for this list waning as I went down from Tier 1 to Tier 3.

Looking back on it, maybe my #2 choice should have been Ashavsvaz? Nearly the same sort of dilemma there as here (both nations to choose between sharing one ludicrously annoying feature, albeit the feature(s) differs between Ashavsvaz and Obliheim).

Spoiler: my thoughts on sifting through nations (click to show/hide)

Quote from: Jilladilla on June 02, 2015, 05:10:22 pm
You sure aren't making this easy on me Darkwind... Vanir capable of spamming turn 1 Rain of Stones or Fomorians who have some ludicrously powerful cap-only mages? This will take time I feel...
I have a hard time picking my favorite between the two myself!

I do want to note, Jilladilla, you might want to check Dobgan's national traits and priests. If you haven't and you're having trouble making a choice right now, I suspect that will make it easier. Just in the interests of fairness; I don't want to skate by with a nation because the person eliminating the other one didn't have all the information.

Finally, Il Palazzo, I think I will nix Shela. I am a generous man, and Master Smith Sidhe Lords with Astral sound fun in the worst sort of way. Enjoy your clockwork infantry! I don't understand the appeal.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round Fifteen: More NationGen [Draft underway]
Post by: Jilladilla on June 02, 2015, 06:45:25 pm
*In the distance you hear a skull repeatedly bash itself against a wall in frustration*
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round Fifteen: More NationGen [Draft underway]
Post by: E. Albright on June 02, 2015, 06:47:57 pm
Honestly, yeah, that wouldn't help me decide either. Of all the things there are to dislike about Dobgan, that's pretty far down the list.

Quote from: Darkwind3 on June 02, 2015, 06:23:15 pm
Enjoy your clockwork infantry! I don't understand the appeal.

What's to not understand??? They're hoburgs - with the strength of men.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round Fifteen: More NationGen [Draft underway]
Post by: Darkwind3 on June 02, 2015, 06:58:01 pm
Wait, reanimation is far down the list of things to dislike about Dobgan? Sure they've got 600g temples, but skeletons! Admittedly, I didn't even know about it when I initially looked at the nation, it's really just mixed-blessing gravy.

As for clockwork infantry, it seems like an awful lot of work to put nearly 140g worth of 5 hp troops in a single square, neatly, for any evocations your opponent might want to cast. Maybe I'm just not looking at them the right way though.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round Fifteen: More NationGen [Draft underway]
Post by: Il Palazzo on June 02, 2015, 07:12:03 pm
BUT POWER ARMOUR!!!

I'm pretty sure I'm going to rely on the regular, cheap troops in the actual game, but I'm all for fluff. Maybe if they had two weapons like Akaku's or Cissium's clockworks, they'd be more viable for the price. Still. I'll enjoy every victory they'll manage to wrestle through sheer mechanical ingenuity from all those oversized bullies the world is littered with.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round Fifteen: More NationGen [Draft underway]
Post by: E. Albright on June 02, 2015, 07:19:46 pm
I'm seriously considering upping the "special ability" chance on the size-2 clockworks, given how uncommon they are to begin with. Only 1 in 5 gets a modification right now, and 4/5 modifications are pretty low key (reivig 0, standard 1, and pooramphib/15poisonres). I could probably even go all the way up to one modification per (especially if I threw in some padding like "strong mechanisms +1 Str", "well-lubricated joints +2 ap", etc.) and it wouldn't be significantly overbalanced. I mean, at the end of the day they're still hoburgs...


Oh, the other question - do we want to write up fluff for our nations? Most all of us did for 4.10 and it was jolly good fun, but it's up to y'all.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round Fifteen: More NationGen [Draft underway]
Post by: Il Palazzo on June 02, 2015, 07:27:07 pm
By the way, one of the 'clockworks' of Qurghannia is bugged. It's got the name, and the typical armour outfit, but lacks the mounted tag and the extra fatigue, so it looks like a regular unit. The resource cost kinda looks too low too.
You may want to look into that in the future.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round Fifteen: More NationGen [Draft underway]
Post by: Darkwind3 on June 02, 2015, 07:30:04 pm
Spending a little time writing fluff sounds fine to me. It's not a dealbreaker if we don't, but it would be nice to be able to distinguish between the different kinds of troops in a nation's roster in the post-battle summary, at least.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round Fifteen: More NationGen [Draft underway]
Post by: E. Albright on June 02, 2015, 07:35:36 pm
Last time our rules were that all elites, sacreds, and mages had to keep their names (thus forcing you to rationalize e.g., your Rhubarb Masters), but priests and all other units could be renamed. It did make the battle reports clearer, if nothing else.

Il Palazzo, I think what happened was the unit variation code made a non-clockwork pose share armor as a "variation" of the smaller clockworks, and it shared the name because of that.  That particular "clockwork" infantry is a pure wannabe, right down to its plate cuirass and stick.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round Fifteen: More NationGen [Draft underway]
Post by: E. Albright on June 02, 2015, 08:03:51 pm
Oh, we also need to decide on how many thrones we want.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round Fifteen: More NationGen [Draft underway]
Post by: Jilladilla on June 02, 2015, 08:11:07 pm
Right, Right... I have a bad headache now (that's how hard you made it on me!) But I have decided...

Dobgan is out. You're stuck with Obliheim.

Rain of Stones I at least have an idea of how to deal with it... And you would still be able to throw it around with Dobgan anyway(While not as much, you would be able to use it much more liberally).
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round Fifteen: More NationGen [Draft underway]
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on June 02, 2015, 08:14:31 pm
Quote from: Darkwind3 on June 02, 2015, 06:23:15 pm
It seems as if nobody else noticed Dobgan (or posted about noticing it, anyways; I certainly wanted to keep all my tier 1 choices secret). I'm astonished, honestly.

I noticed Dobgan, but wasn't all that enamoured with them. I'm sure that they have their strong points, but obviously I passed over them for other nations. Like Nefton.

Quote from: E. Albright on June 02, 2015, 07:19:46 pm
Oh, the other question - do we want to write up fluff for our nations? Most all of us did for 4.10 and it was jolly good fun, but it's up to y'all.

Already working on that right now.

Quote from: E. Albright on June 02, 2015, 08:03:51 pm
Oh, we also need to decide on how many thrones we want.

Well... We have seven players so maybe 9 level 1 thrones? Or 7 level 1s and 2 level 2s?

Quote from: Jilladilla on June 02, 2015, 08:11:07 pm
-snip-

What a concidence, I've just decided I'm going to be nixing Urumsoi for you. Both of your selections look pretty annoying to fight, but at least Shansahr has most of its mages tied to the capital which limits their recruitment greatly. Admittedly Earth and Death are great paths to have, but greatly limiting access to Rain of Stones capable mages is a pretty good idea. Also no flying demonbred as raiders or to fly into besieged fortresses.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round Fifteen: More NationGen [Draft underway]
Post by: Darkwind3 on June 02, 2015, 08:44:47 pm
Quote from: Jilladilla on June 02, 2015, 08:11:07 pm
Dobgan is out. You're stuck with Obliheim.
To be honest, this is what my choice would have been. Dobgan was my #1 choice. They are, no joke, the best nation out of this entire pool. I will fight you if you claim otherwise. Of course, this lets me gush about them without worrying about giving away my secrets!
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
The Prince of the Sixth Whirlwind is a recruitable SC. All of them can cast Ironskin/Stoneskin. The A2s can cast Mistform, the D3s get to phoenix Pyre + Soul Vortex (always a treat), and the E2s, though less immediately abusable, can cast Rain of Stones turn 1. The F3s, well, they can't all be winners. (They are all sacred though.) They're amphibious, sailors, recuperate, and get 10 lightning resistance and 5 cold resistance out of the box, before path bonuses. And MR 20 out of the box, which is Void Being territory and past what pretenders get. These make the nation. They are beautiful. But that's not all!
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
This guy is A2D1. The D1 doesn't matter much, except that it allows you to get Corpse Constructs. Corpse Constructs are excellent heavy-duty chaff for a very, very low cost, and you're going to want Construction anyways to get the items that really let you spam them. But the A2 is interesting - that's a hallmark for Thunderstrike spam. But you have no A3s to cast Storm!
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Forge a Crystal Matrix, and now you do. But where do the communions come from?
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Oh. Yes, that is a giant Witch Hunter for about 2/3 of the cost of a Witch Hunter, with recuperate. You can recruit these everywhere and they're not the cheapest communion fodder, but you only need two to storm, and they have good combat magic paths. Overall, you have your choice of thunderspam, Falling Fires (and other miscellaneous Fire spell) spam, Astral shenanigans, or Crystal Matrix shenanigans with Death, Air or Earth (from your cap-only mages), and all sorts of exciting crosspaths thereof.

But wait! There's more! Their priests reanimate! Your temples cost 200 extra gold, but that just means your infinite hordes of the dead are about 33% smaller (assuming you're spending the same amount on extra temples for indie priests), and 33% of too damn large to deal with is still too damn large to deal with, especially on top of the Fire Storms, thunderstrike spam, and Cloud Trapeze-ing SCs. You can also easily cast Solar Eclipse, and Darkness is in reach if you want it.

And wait! There's more! They get a 50g labrat, too. Not that you'll ever want to recruit one over your F2S1 turbocommunion fodder or A2D1 thunderspammers. They are an option, though.

Don't go yet! There's more! They have a troop roster which I have honestly never looked at. Who cares? Look at those mages again. Look, and weep, for you shall never find such beauty again. I guess you get a recruitable Fomorian King-chassis sacred and a bunch of decent human and Fomorian troops, but the mages are the draw. And they're one hell of a draw!

e: i guess they don't get blood magic for lategame though
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round Fifteen: More NationGen [Nations picked, writing fluff]
Post by: E. Albright on June 02, 2015, 09:05:36 pm
Spoiler: Darkwind3 - Obliheim (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Il Palazzo - Qurghannia (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Karlito - Luha (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: AlStar - Lissikos (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: E. Albright - Djedhur (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: USEC_OFFICER: - Veroor (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Jilladilla - Shansahr (click to show/hide)


Your nations. I'll trundle off and generate the mod from slightly-polished-but-not-seedbreaking data and graphics; if you're paranoid, you can generate your own copy to keep me honest, but I'd advise to use the "official" one for your fluff-writing so as to not make me pull my hair out reassembling everything.

Spoiler: House of Weather (click to show/hide)

=

House of Weather v1.0 (https://mega.co.nz/#!CFVB0YIY!7qx6nATzDrteCy0bQIJSc-fQoyTP0hz7JvVVAJsnD4s)
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round Fifteen: More NationGen [Nations picked, writing fluff]
Post by: Karlito on June 02, 2015, 09:14:19 pm
Hey, you scaled the image to make my guys look short! :P

Quote from: USEC_OFFICER on June 02, 2015, 08:14:31 pm
Quote from: E. Albright on June 02, 2015, 08:03:51 pm
Oh, we also need to decide on how many thrones we want.

Well... We have seven players so maybe 9 level 1 thrones? Or 7 level 1s and 2 level 2s?
Assuming we're playing Biddyn (which I'm fine with), I think 9 is a good number of thrones. I do like seeing some of the more powerful throne effects come into play, so I'd want a few level 2s.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round Fifteen: More NationGen [Nations picked, writing fluff]
Post by: E. Albright on June 02, 2015, 09:26:45 pm
Blame the forum for that. Or possibly Photobucket; I didn't scale any of the images. :p

Okay, so, barring further objections, take... umm... 48h to write as much fluff as you want in nation descriptions (https://mega.co.nz/#!CFVB0YIY!7qx6nATzDrteCy0bQIJSc-fQoyTP0hz7JvVVAJsnD4s), and rename as many of the generic-sounding names (i.e., not mages, sacreds, or elites) as you desire. Sound like enough-but-not-too-much time? In the mean time, figure out what your pretenders are going to be, and continue to squabble amongst ourselves about idle throne distribution on Biddyn (or scream bloody murder and demand we not play on Biddyn, if that's more your style... ;)
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round Fifteen: More NationGen [Nations picked, writing fluff]
Post by: AlStar on June 02, 2015, 09:38:50 pm
For writing the descriptions, I assume you'd like us to just do any name changes and/or descriptions right in the .dm and then post that?
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round Fifteen: More NationGen [Nations picked, writing fluff]
Post by: E. Albright on June 02, 2015, 09:46:15 pm
That's the easiest way, yeah. Just take the .dm linked above, change the unit/national #description as appropriate while changing nothing else (not that I'm going to copy anything else), and then put it on Pastebin or somesuch and PM me a link.

I'll do my best to knuckle down and do likewise, whilst somehow avoiding, um, distractions. (http://i1364.photobucket.com/albums/r734/Image_buffer/distractions_zps7ns7fl3u.png)

Oh, and in re: thrones, I'll throw my two pence into the pot: 6x1, 3x2, 9/12 to win?
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round Fifteen: More NationGen [Nations picked, writing fluff]
Post by: Karlito on June 02, 2015, 10:27:23 pm
I'd rather 8/12 wins it, but since I probably won't make it that far, I'm not sure how much weight my opinion holds.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round Fifteen: More NationGen [Draft underway]
Post by: Jilladilla on June 02, 2015, 10:32:36 pm
Quote from: USEC_OFFICER on June 02, 2015, 08:14:31 pm
What a concidence, I've just decided I'm going to be nixing Urumsoi for you.

Noooooooooooooooooo..... I really wanted to shout "NO ONE EXPECTS THE AGARTHAN AIR FORCE!" as I inevitably cloud trapezed a bunch of RoS casters simultaneously...

Part of me wonders if I should've rolled with my actual second choice though (Shansahr was the 3rd)... (Figured its recruit anywhere mage would paint a huge target on me due to it's crosspaths that I probably don't know how to use optimally. Oh and they're guaranteed RoS casters too.) But oh well. No point worrying about it, now I look forward to an interesting and fun (!!FUN!! is ok too) match.

I'm fine with that throne distribution, although maybe 8/12 would be better, with 9/12 you would need 6/9 thrones in the best case scenario
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round Fifteen: More NationGen [Nations picked, writing fluff]
Post by: AlStar on June 02, 2015, 11:17:02 pm
8 or 9 out of 12 sounds good to me.... probably siding towards 8, so that the game doesn't fall into a stalemate.

Spoiler: Troop Descriptions: (click to show/hide)

The .dm with my changes is here (https://www.dropbox.com/s/p9hpsuuxaka3pyz/nationgen_house_of_weather.dm?dl=0).
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round Fifteen: More NationGen [Nations picked, writing fluff]
Post by: E. Albright on June 03, 2015, 12:42:02 am
You can do a national description, too, if ya want, towards the end of the .dm. Up to you. Oh, and if you want your hero (which doesn't have to be called "hero" :p) to have a specific name the #fixedname tag will let you do that...
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round Fifteen: More NationGen [Nations picked, writing fluff]
Post by: Il Palazzo on June 03, 2015, 07:48:41 am
Oh, god. I finally ran a trial game with Qurghannia. They're useless! :D
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round Fifteen: More NationGen [Nations picked, writing fluff]
Post by: Karlito on June 03, 2015, 03:27:07 pm
Quote from: Il Palazzo on June 03, 2015, 07:48:41 am
Oh, god. I finally ran a trial game with Qurghannia. They're useless! :D
Well, that can only mean one thing. Gentlemen, prepare to be ground under the heel of numerous size 2 boots.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round Fifteen: More NationGen [Nations picked, writing fluff]
Post by: Il Palazzo on June 03, 2015, 03:35:42 pm
I might just do that, if you promise to lay down and not make any sudden movements.
A ladder would be nice too.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round Fifteen: More NationGen [Nations picked, writing fluff]
Post by: Darkwind3 on June 03, 2015, 05:50:52 pm
A forewarning: I'll be unable to access Dominions from Friday to Sunday, and I'll be busy enough before and after that I won't have time to give Obliheim more than cursory testing before then, so I'll probably be unable to get some decent testing (and a decent pretender) in until a few days afterwards. I expect I'll have enough time to write up some fluff by Thursday though.

As for thrones, I'm a fan of 50% + 1. Even with a few level 2 thrones, I think 7/12 would be fine.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round Fifteen: More NationGen [Nations picked, writing fluff]
Post by: E. Albright on June 03, 2015, 06:59:32 pm
If we have higher-value thrones, I'd be very weary of doing 50%+1. With 6+3 and 7/12, you could potentially win with 4/9 thrones. If we go with 8, the middleground between my preference and yours, you would at least need a numerical majority of thrones to win.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round Fifteen: More NationGen [Nations picked, writing fluff]
Post by: Darkwind3 on June 04, 2015, 09:16:04 pm
Before I leave Dominions behind for a few days, here (https://www.dropbox.com/s/e4736sootm76sgo/nationgen_house_of_weather.dm?dl=0) is a link to some fluff for Obliheim. It's good enough. They worship brass!

e: I can write up a changelist if you want me to but it ought to be self-evident. I didn't chnge much other than names/descriptions; I removed one of the troops that was just a copy of another troop (one of the Light Cavalry - I just commented out).
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round Fifteen: More NationGen [Nations picked, writing fluff]
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on June 04, 2015, 10:01:36 pm
Here's the link to my fluff on Veroor. (http://pastebin.com/MW4EYL6y) I didn't get around to doing the heroes but... I'm running out of time and ideas so eh. Do note that I've changed the starting sites around a bit so that the Overgrown X both come from the same site. It shouldn't affect anything, but I thought that I should say something.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round Fifteen: More NationGen [Nations picked, writing fluff]
Post by: AlStar on June 04, 2015, 10:12:00 pm
Why would being able to survive without water be a useful trait in a humid climate?

I like your rather frank discussions about the usefulness of some of your commanders.  :P

edit: (warning, comments on grammar/spelling):
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round Fifteen: More NationGen [Nations picked, writing fluff]
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on June 05, 2015, 07:57:41 am
It was late and I was tired, so I'm not surprised that I made a couple of mistakes here and there. I'll fix the poor grammar/spelling, and I think that the humid climate bit is supposed to be sarcasm or something. I'll fix them both. I've fixed them both. Well hopefully I've fixed them both. The newest fluff should be here. (http://pastebin.com/Ms3cGWVF)
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round Fifteen: More NationGen [Nations picked, writing fluff]
Post by: E. Albright on June 05, 2015, 02:06:03 pm
I've got fluff from everyone but the ankle-biting Napoleons, so barring instructions to hold the presses I'll push out a fluff-dated mod sometime in the next 24h or so.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round Fifteen: More NationGen [Fluff written, preparing Pretenders]
Post by: E. Albright on June 06, 2015, 10:24:34 pm
Okay, here's the fluff-filled version of the mod (https://mega.co.nz/#!7ZVnHTIQ!Osr61_a6MRv0phRWiEbMvibLwXM3qm3SkBHBKs8OBiE) we'll be using. Since it was generated with a more recent version of NG than the released version, there are a few graphics/data quirks that were fixed, essentially all of which were mentioned upthread. Anyway, nothing should be deeply different except a few things like fear and slime being defined correctly so they'll work, and fewer stray pixels. Oh, and for purely fluff reasons I moved one of my cap-only units from the first site to the second.

Do we have consensus on maps and settings? I have presumed values on the first post, but that can still change. I'm assuming Biddyn, with 50% sites (i.e., +10% over standard MA, but in keeping with B12's metagame habits), graphs off, story events off, renaming on, 15 HOF, 1 artifact per turn, common events, normal research, income, indies... and most controversially, 6x1+3x2, 8/12 thrones? If we agree on this, I can set up the game and we can start submitting pretenders, accepting that it'll be a couple of days yet before Darkwind3 can do likewise. If we don't, we can resume squabbling about whichever of these settings - presumably the thrones - is objectionable.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round Fifteen: More NationGen [Fluff written, preparing Pretenders]
Post by: Karlito on June 07, 2015, 12:42:53 am
Quote from: E. Albright on June 06, 2015, 10:24:34 pm
Do we have consensus on maps and settings? I have presumed values on the first post, but that can still change. I'm assuming Biddyn, with 50% sites (i.e., +10% over standard MA, but in keeping with B12's metagame habits), graphs off, story events off, renaming on, 15 HOF, 1 artifact per turn, common events, normal research, income, indies... and most controversially, 6x1+3x2, 8/12 thrones? If we agree on this, I can set up the game and we can start submitting pretenders, accepting that it'll be a couple of days yet before Darkwind3 can do likewise. If we don't, we can resume squabbling about whichever of these settings - presumably the thrones - is objectionable.

(http://i.imgur.com/0BrsrhT.jpg)
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round Fifteen: More NationGen [Fluff written, preparing Pretenders]
Post by: Il Palazzo on June 07, 2015, 05:49:34 am
Huh, I was pretty sure I posted a message here asking to stand by for my fluff, but it ain't here no more.

No matter. It's kinda hard to come up with consistent fluff without being able to rename all units, so I might just as well stick to the generic descriptions.
(I had thought of making them into very ineffectual space marines)
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round Fifteen: More NationGen [Fluff written, preparing Pretenders]
Post by: E. Albright on June 07, 2015, 09:47:50 am
Well, I can still take fluff right up until I push the mod up to Llamaserver, so it's not too late. Especially since we're standing by on Darkwind3 anyway, and it's not like I didn't take my sweet time with mine. Your fluff only affects the #descr tag and such, so it has zero impact on any other player, pretender compatibility, etc. I'm partial to no renamed sacreds or mages because it forces the player to be more creative in working around NG's wonky-but-diverse naming schema, but everything else is fair game and I'm not even completely wedded to that...
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round Fifteen: More NationGen [Fluff written, preparing Pretenders]
Post by: Darkwind3 on June 07, 2015, 02:06:43 pm
Well, I'm back! Testing out expansion strategies and pretenders for Obliheim as I type. I won't have too much time today though.

I've downloaded the fluffed-up mod. I'd like to note that Obliheim has two #descr commands, which unfortunately has resulted in my (soul-wrenchingly beautiful) prose about the nation itself being overwritten.

As for the settings, they sound fine. Worst case, the throne victory never comes into play and the game ends with a concession or tie.

e: also there's a typo, strangw -> strange, you can see the sweat, blood and tears I put into this fluff!
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round Fifteen: More NationGen [Fluff written, preparing Pretenders]
Post by: E. Albright on June 07, 2015, 02:52:11 pm
Immediately prior to pushing the game to LS, I'll post a final fluffed version, though the current fluffed version will be entirely compatible if you don't wanna bother with another download. It'll include the Obliheim corrections and any anklebiter fluff I have at that point.

How long is everyone going to need for pretender testing? I'll make the game tomorrow if we're all ready-ish, and then we can start as soon as we get pretenders. If we need longer, though, speak up...
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round Fifteen: More NationGen [Awaiting Pretenders]
Post by: E. Albright on June 08, 2015, 05:01:02 pm
Game is up. Submit your pretenders once you've got 'em ready.

Gamepage: http://www.llamaserver.net/gameinfo.cgi?game=Bay12GamesRound415

Final fluffy version of the mod: https://mega.co.nz/#!rBtVWRQb!KDS0bn5Q87yzNlZzjhE8CwU1wjCl4qAIhAmCGKHwYFU
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round Fifteen: More NationGen [Awaiting Pretenders]
Post by: Karlito on June 08, 2015, 06:00:02 pm
Hey, we're not all "Unknown Nation"!
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round Fifteen: More NationGen [Awaiting Pretenders]
Post by: AlStar on June 08, 2015, 06:11:54 pm
Although it might have just been a fluke, I'd like to think that I had something to do with that - I requested to Llama that he make it so that the site reads nation names from the mod file (this brought on by trying to substitute out a player when there were unknown nations #1-#10).

Shortly after, Llamaserver started doing so. Coincidence? Maybe, but the timing is suspect.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round Fifteen: More NationGen [Awaiting Pretenders]
Post by: Il Palazzo on June 09, 2015, 05:17:37 am
Apologies for not getting back on that fluff and generally being unresponsive. Been a weird time in RL.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round Fifteen: More NationGen [Awaiting Pretenders]
Post by: E. Albright on June 10, 2015, 01:12:18 pm
Darkwind3, any idea on how much more time you'll need? Mostly just curious (but yes, also nagging a bit)...
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round Fifteen: More NationGen [Awaiting Pretenders]
Post by: Darkwind3 on June 10, 2015, 06:26:56 pm
I'm done! Sorry for the hold up. The first turn ought to start any minute now!

By the way, for anyone who hasn't already seen this, Maerlande (an admin on Dom4mods) is starting a cross-forum Disciples game (http://www.desura.com/games/dominions-4-thrones-of-ascensions/forum/thread/cross-forum-disciple-game). There may possibly be several games, so two Bay 12 teams is a possibility (though I doubt there are enough players here for it). I've been looking into making a team for Bay 12 but I've had only a few tentative sign ups, so I'm posting in this thread (and others) for players who might be interested. I'd prefer experienced players, but by all means sign up even if you're not a veteran; I doubt there are enough Dominions vets on Bay 12 with time to make even one team. We also don't have a captain yet, but that's definitely a position for experienced players only (and I have a plan for that anyways, though if anyone with enough experience and interest comes along I would gladly declare them captain).

fake edit: I see everyone is taking their pretender names seriously!
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round Fifteen: More NationGen [Awaiting Pretenders]
Post by: Il Palazzo on June 10, 2015, 06:29:22 pm
Problems ahoy!

When I load the .trn file I can't see any nations to choose from. Any idea what's up with that?
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round Fifteen: More NationGen [Awaiting Pretenders]
Post by: E. Albright on June 10, 2015, 06:55:39 pm
Yeah, it's normal for mod PBEM games. Open Dom, turn on the mod, start a new game with it, exit to main menu, and load your turn file. Alternatively, open up an existing game you were testing the mod with. Basically, before playing any remotely-generated turn with the mod, you'll need to open/start an existing local game with the mod.

Hmm, and I needed to rename my biddyn_2.tga to biddyn2.tga... don't know if that was my fault or Llamaserver's, but if you immediately crash and get a complaint about the map file, well, that would suggest it wasn't just me.

Argh, and my smug assurance that I had sufficiently proofread my nation descriptions is coming back to bite me...
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round Fifteen: More NationGen [Awaiting Pretenders]
Post by: Il Palazzo on June 10, 2015, 07:05:53 pm
Now it nagot gick fels me because I've got a bidyn map and not bidyn2. Can I just rename it or is there some other special version we're using? (I got mine from the link in the OP, v.2.0)
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round Fifteen: More NationGen [Awaiting Pretenders]
Post by: E. Albright on June 10, 2015, 07:09:46 pm
Yeah, just rename it. I'm going to blame llamaserver for this, as I think the file got renamed on the server to allow an updated version get posted.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round Fifteen: More NationGen [Awaiting Pretenders]
Post by: Il Palazzo on June 10, 2015, 07:24:18 pm
Had to make keep both biddyn and biddyn2 tga's before it worked. All is good now, I can finally lead my lemming empire into the grinder.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round Fifteen: More NationGen [Awaiting Pretenders]
Post by: E. Albright on June 10, 2015, 07:30:29 pm

Hehehe... kinda seeing a bit of a theme...


So only one "negative" throne, and it's not even a death one... and one of the "make everyone hate you" thrones.... and three thrones give their holder an indy mage, though not the most unbalancing of those.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round Fifteen: More NationGen [Awaiting Pretenders]
Post by: Il Palazzo on June 10, 2015, 07:32:11 pm
Seriously, it's like everybody took nature and earth on their pretenders. Such creativity, guys!
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round Fifteen: More NationGen [Game Underway]
Post by: E. Albright on June 10, 2015, 07:49:27 pm
Okay, so, contrary to what the email says you have 30h per turn for the moment, although I encourage everyone to take as little as possible to make the first year or two fly.

Anyone want to volunteer as assistant admin? I really doubt it'll be needed, but it can't hurt and maybe it'll help me loathe admining a little less than usual...
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round Fifteen: More NationGen [Game Underway]
Post by: Il Palazzo on June 10, 2015, 07:53:06 pm
Sure, I can be your henchman. PM me the password.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round Fifteen: More NationGen [Game Underway]
Post by: Karlito on June 10, 2015, 07:57:41 pm
Quote from: E. Albright on June 10, 2015, 07:30:29 pm
  • (2) The Throne of the First Age
  • (1) The Throne of the Second Age
Are these guys new? Don't think I've seen them before.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round Fifteen: More NationGen [Game Underway]
Post by: E. Albright on June 10, 2015, 08:03:48 pm
They've been around since beta as far as I can remember.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round Fifteen: More NationGen [Game Underway]
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on June 10, 2015, 09:26:17 pm
Quote from: Il Palazzo on June 10, 2015, 07:32:11 pm
Seriously, it's like everybody took nature and earth on their pretenders. Such creativity, guys!

Geez, it's almost as if Major Nature and Minor Earth blesses are the best in the game or something. Though with sacred mages and complete lack of Earth magic, Veroor is kinda locked into an Earth bless of some sort. Especially since their sacreds are crap.

Quote from: E. Albright on June 10, 2015, 07:49:27 pm
Okay, so, contrary to what the email says you have 30h per turn for the moment, although I encourage everyone to take as little as possible to make the first year or two fly.

Hahaha... You've kinda caught me without access to Doms for the next couple of days, so can I get an extension until Saturday? I'll try to get it in earlier than that, but currently it's impossible for me to get it done in 30 hours right now. Sorry about that.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round Fifteen: More NationGen [Game Underway]
Post by: E. Albright on June 10, 2015, 10:10:54 pm
Sure, I'll push it to 23h UMT Saturday.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round Fifteen: More NationGen [Game Underway]
Post by: AlStar on June 12, 2015, 05:50:34 pm
This map is a little aggressive with packing in the start locations - you don't usually see an enemy capital with your scout on turn 2.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round Fifteen: More NationGen [Game Underway]
Post by: E. Albright on June 12, 2015, 06:13:08 pm
Yeah, I'm starting to think this is worse than Peliwyr for spacing, and Peliwyr's bad...

(Hexiwyr is lovely, but it's also substantially bigger...)
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round Fifteen: More NationGen [Game Underway]
Post by: E. Albright on June 14, 2015, 08:42:35 am
PSA:

Ah, Biddyn, how does my loathe for you ever grow? Let me count the ways...
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round Fifteen: More NationGen [Game Underway]
Post by: AlStar on June 14, 2015, 08:47:09 am
Well, today's turn was rather disastrous. Hopefully I can recover from this setback.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round Fifteen: More NationGen [Game Underway]
Post by: Darkwind3 on June 14, 2015, 08:12:38 pm
Ugh. I took an awake expander and I'm looking at potentially a single-digit number of total provinces. With some luck, I could maybe get the average number of provinces per player!

...with an awake expander. :'(
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round Fifteen: More NationGen [Game Underway]
Post by: Il Palazzo on June 14, 2015, 08:15:21 pm
I hear Hoburg lands are rich and poorly defended!
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round Fifteen: More NationGen [Game Underway]
Post by: E. Albright on June 14, 2015, 08:33:22 pm
I would love to be able to entertain non-farcical hopes of getting all the way up to "average per-player province count" before the expansion phase is over.

Somewhere on this map there has got to be wide open space.

Probably full of tricksy hoburgs.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round Fifteen: More NationGen [Game Underway]
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on June 14, 2015, 09:21:05 pm
Quote from: AlStar on June 14, 2015, 08:47:09 am
Well, today's turn was rather disastrous. Hopefully I can recover from this setback.

Sorry about that, we can always discuss our borders via PMs if you want to avoid it happening again in the future.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round Fifteen: More NationGen [Game Underway]
Post by: E. Albright on June 15, 2015, 07:23:10 am
I think I finally have a handle on what bothers me about Pymous's maps. It's not the number of provinces, it's the province-to-connection ratio. They're too densely interconnected for how small they are. That's great for a blitzy metagame, but we've always been more heel-draggy here. When I can take the provinces directly adjacent to 5/7 capitals and they constitute over a third of the map, that's a bit extreme. I'm pretty sure we'd get to half the map if I added in the immediate environs of the two nations outside the cramped and fateful triangle. It's nice that almost all provinces work as start provinces, but I'd rather have some definitely-non-start provinces that are more "transitional" even if that means *gasp* chokepoints.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round Fifteen: More NationGen [Game Underway]
Post by: Karlito on June 15, 2015, 10:55:18 pm
The Luha Intelligence Agency has decided to publish its turn 8 World Factbook (http://i.imgur.com/cYHtcHX.jpg)
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round Fifteen: More NationGen [Game Underway]
Post by: Il Palazzo on June 15, 2015, 11:58:01 pm
Those Hoburg lands are at best half the size they really are!
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round Fifteen: More NationGen [Game Underway]
Post by: E. Albright on June 16, 2015, 06:44:52 am
Yes, but they're full of hoburgs, so it balances out.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round Fifteen: More NationGen [Game Underway]
Post by: Il Palazzo on June 16, 2015, 09:28:55 am
Quote from: E. Albright on June 16, 2015, 06:44:52 am
Yes, but they're full of hoburgs, so it balances out.
You calling us short, mate?
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round Fifteen: More NationGen [Game Underway]
Post by: E. Albright on June 16, 2015, 09:35:18 am
As one of the two big-boned nations on the map, I find the term "bite-sized" to be less confusing.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round Fifteen: More NationGen [Game Underway]
Post by: Il Palazzo on June 16, 2015, 09:42:12 am
Well, yo mamma is a Fomorian giant.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round Fifteen: More NationGen [Game Underway]
Post by: AlStar on June 18, 2015, 08:50:55 pm
Hmm, looking like I should've picked two "strong army" picks - although my lizards did pretty much as well as expected against indies, they are not fairing well against other NationGen troops at all.

I'm also learning that I have no idea what to do with a blood-heavy nation with no real combat magic.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round Fifteen: More NationGen [Game Underway]
Post by: Karlito on June 18, 2015, 09:35:12 pm
Summon oodles of demons on turn 40. Before that, it's usually kind of rough.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round Fifteen: More NationGen [Game Underway]
Post by: Il Palazzo on June 19, 2015, 05:16:09 pm
I've grown to dislike the competitive aspect of Dominions. All I want to do these days is look for sites and build forts.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round Fifteen: More NationGen [Game Underway]
Post by: E. Albright on June 19, 2015, 07:14:50 pm
There is a certain appeal to that. I'm sure your people would while away their time farming if they could, not building doomsday devices.

(https://cloud.githubusercontent.com/assets/12613576/8245652/63e186c4-15ff-11e5-8051-ff580d520b55.png)

Incidentally, Djedhur is looking to modestly increase their sapphire stockpiles. Serious inquiries from interested parties welcome...
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round Fifteen: More NationGen [Game Underway]
Post by: Il Palazzo on June 19, 2015, 07:22:16 pm
What is that?? Is that a giant in power armour?
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round Fifteen: More NationGen [Game Underway]
Post by: E. Albright on June 19, 2015, 07:26:58 pm
That's, ah, the next generation of hoburg technology. Tall as an Avvite or a minotaur; s'truth! A clockwork oversized geardriven reinforced exoskeleton, if you will. For size comparison:

(https://cloud.githubusercontent.com/assets/12613576/8245673/0255b136-1600-11e5-970e-194078d8bee3.png)(https://cloud.githubusercontent.com/assets/12613576/8245671/fff7dc20-15ff-11e5-94e8-cd4588056da7.png)(https://cloud.githubusercontent.com/assets/12613576/8245652/63e186c4-15ff-11e5-8051-ff580d520b55.png)

(On a more technical level, it's a siege golem reduced to either 40 or 50% size - can't remember which even though that was all of a day or two ago, with the metal subtly recolored to be more clockworky, gears/springs/what-have-you added to the joints, and the head hollowed out so a hoburg could look out of it. I still need to work out weapons for it, but I'm pretty sure it can just use Avvim and/or colossi/burning one graphics.)
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round Fifteen: More NationGen [Game Underway]
Post by: Il Palazzo on June 19, 2015, 07:29:33 pm
Dude, if you're going to put a 5hp hoburg in there, it's going to be as useless as any other power armour I've got.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round Fifteen: More NationGen [Game Underway]
Post by: E. Albright on June 19, 2015, 07:33:31 pm
I'm thinking more in the 15-20 range, with pierce and slash resistance. By the time you get to size 3 it's more a vehicle and less armor, so the additional hp are justified even if it's still a hoburg in a steel can.

I actually had moderate luck using (admittedly only some variants of) the size-2 clockwork armor against the AI; the little ones do pretty much always die like flies, though.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round Fifteen: More NationGen [Game Underway]
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on June 21, 2015, 08:54:18 am
Can I get a 24 hour extension on the game? I've got work and not enough time to figure out what I want to do on my turn. Sorry about that.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round Fifteen: More NationGen [Game Underway]
Post by: E. Albright on June 21, 2015, 04:48:27 pm
Sure, no worries. Pushed 24h.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round Fifteen: More NationGen [Game Underway]
Post by: Il Palazzo on June 21, 2015, 06:50:08 pm
Help. I'm being bullied by Luha.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round Fifteen: More NationGen [Game Underway]
Post by: Karlito on June 21, 2015, 07:17:45 pm
Hey, I'm just playing the cards I was dealt. And who was it that dealt me Luha again? ;)

Besides, you have so many provinces, I'm sure you can afford to share a few.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round Fifteen: More NationGen [Game Underway]
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on June 22, 2015, 08:45:54 am
Thank you for the extra 24 hours. I definitely made the most of it.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round Fifteen: More NationGen [Game Underway]
Post by: Karlito on June 22, 2015, 04:35:26 pm
Damn Jilladilla, I don't know what poison Il Palazzo has been feeding into your ears, but really, it would have been better to go for 10 more turns of research before trying to take a bite out of me.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round Fifteen: More NationGen [Game Underway]
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on June 23, 2015, 05:59:26 am
I really hate having to ask this, but can I get another 24 hours? I have work for most of the day, so I doubt that I'll be able to get the turn in on time. Sorry about that.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round Fifteen: More NationGen [Game Underway]
Post by: E. Albright on June 23, 2015, 08:15:35 am
Pushed 24h.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round Fifteen: More NationGen [Game Underway]
Post by: sum1won on June 25, 2015, 04:39:30 am
Hey, I know I'm not in this game, but for those who are interested, I just dropped a post in the main dominions 4 thread on potential balance issues in the game.  I'd especially appreciate comments from the people in this game, who, to my knowledge, are on the experienced side for bay12.

for those who don't want to wander over to the other thread, the document is at https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Tw3uQDvH6RosHpdWhtgOxZq0lx4g-tzDwZtc6TVf1-c/edit?usp=sharing (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Tw3uQDvH6RosHpdWhtgOxZq0lx4g-tzDwZtc6TVf1-c/edit?usp=sharing)
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round Fifteen: More NationGen [Game Underway]
Post by: E. Albright on June 26, 2015, 08:13:15 pm
Pushing 24h so I don't need to spend the next 3h making sure Shanshar doesn't stall. Grumble, grumble.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round Fifteen: More NationGen [Game Underway]
Post by: Jilladilla on June 26, 2015, 11:22:58 pm
Sorry! Unexpected loss of internet stopped me. (It's still broken for the most part. It is aggravating.)
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round Fifteen: More NationGen [Game Underway]
Post by: AlStar on June 28, 2015, 08:24:09 pm
I'm not going to win, but I'm going to be the biggest thorn-in-the-side possible for the lot of you.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round Fifteen: More NationGen [Game Underway]
Post by: Karlito on June 28, 2015, 08:29:55 pm
Quote from: AlStar on June 28, 2015, 08:24:09 pm
I'm not going to win, but I'm going to be the biggest thorn-in-the-side possible for the lot of you.

What did I ever do to you?
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round Fifteen: More NationGen [Game Underway]
Post by: AlStar on June 28, 2015, 08:33:29 pm
Well, you just get unlucky - I'm getting chased by several rather large armies.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round Fifteen: More NationGen [Game Underway]
Post by: Darkwind3 on June 28, 2015, 08:44:16 pm
Frankly, that loss was primarily my fault for attacking into a player who has recruitable net troops. Oh well; two thugs is not an irrecoverable loss by any means. You won't be so lucky next time!

e: poor shansahr
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round Fifteen: More NationGen [Game Underway]
Post by: E. Albright on June 29, 2015, 06:28:33 am
Blame the hoburgs. If they hadn't convinced me to invade Luha I'd still be happily turtling.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round Fifteen: More NationGen [Game Underway]
Post by: Il Palazzo on June 29, 2015, 08:00:33 am
I'm not sure I see how I convinced you to invade Luha, seeing how your giants are happily strolling through the Hoburg fatherland.
And just when I convinced Shansahr to commit what appears to be a suicide.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round Fifteen: More NationGen [Game Underway]
Post by: E. Albright on June 29, 2015, 11:20:00 am
It wasn't just you who led the cave-dwellers down the garden path to the gallows. When the tricksy hoburgs convinced Djedhur of the necessity of invading Luha, it's possible that Djedhur candidly informed Shansahr of that fact. After the initial invasion, when the tricksy Avvim made an impassioned appeal to the Giant Bro Code and convinced Djedhur of the necessity of hugging it out, it's possible that Shansahr might have not been kept up to date with these most recent diplomatic developments.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round Fifteen: More NationGen [Game Underway]
Post by: Il Palazzo on June 29, 2015, 11:41:33 am
As fun as these diplomatic shenanigans are, in despite my just-gained semi-competence on the battlefield, I have to bail out.
I'm so swamped with work I just can't cope with anything else until it's done (which is in 10-15 days).

I think I'll just set myself to AI, seeing how it's a tough sell to get a player to play a nation with four provinces to its name, and dwindling fast.

I really did mean it when I said those hoburgs of mine were useless, by the way. :)
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round Fifteen: More NationGen [Game Underway]
Post by: Karlito on June 29, 2015, 11:53:19 am
Quote from: Il Palazzo on June 29, 2015, 11:41:33 am
I really did mean it when I said those hoburgs of mine were useless, by the way. :)

Oh I know.You taught me an important lesson in Dominions 3 Round 13: "Never pick the Hoburgs in a Nationgen game, no matter how cool their units are," so I figured I would return the favor.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round Fifteen: More NationGen [Game Underway]
Post by: E. Albright on June 29, 2015, 12:13:15 pm
Quote from: Il Palazzo on June 29, 2015, 11:41:33 am
I really did mean it when I said those hoburgs of mine were useless, by the way. :)

I don't doubt it. The little mechs are getting upgraded to plate hauberks, +2hp, and 25% affliction resistance in the next version, the middle-sized ones to plate mail, +7hp, 50% affliction resistance, and slash resist, and the new big ones will be +12hp, 21 natural prot, 75% affliction resistance, and slash/pierce resist. They seem like they might finally be viable, but even then I'll need to be convinced before I believe it.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round Fifteen: More NationGen [Game Underway]
Post by: Il Palazzo on June 29, 2015, 12:16:11 pm
The most useful ones were the cheapo ones, since it takes a lot of swinging from a giant to murder them fast enough.

Alright, I'm out. Have fun.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round Fifteen: More NationGen [Game Underway]
Post by: E. Albright on June 30, 2015, 07:22:56 pm
I'm currently trying to figure out whether elfin hoburgs are that and then some, or just an awful, awful joke...

Anyway, to the matter at hand, pushed 24h so our local elves don't stale.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round Fifteen: More NationGen [Game Underway]
Post by: Darkwind3 on July 01, 2015, 05:26:53 am
Oh man, I forgot to send in my turn! I was out all day yesterday so I couldn't check. I will be today, too, so I might need an ~18h extension. Sorry for the delay!
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round Fifteen: More NationGen [Game Underway]
Post by: Jilladilla on July 01, 2015, 09:55:14 am
Alright, I surrender, too many N9Ex Giants. And no more forts.

E. Albright, enjoy capital 2.0. (It got hit by a space rock you see.)
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round Fifteen: More NationGen [Game Underway]
Post by: Karlito on July 01, 2015, 09:29:11 pm
How does the AI do it? Or: When Flying Commanders Go Wrong.
(http://i.imgur.com/iqdjgFd.png)

(The province in question had a grand total of 2 pd.)
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round Fifteen: More NationGen [Game Underway]
Post by: Darkwind3 on July 02, 2015, 06:42:54 pm
I'm back, and we can return to Fomorian King Chassis Power Hour!
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round Fifteen: More NationGen [Game Underway]
Post by: E. Albright on July 02, 2015, 10:13:16 pm
Quote from: Karlito on July 01, 2015, 09:29:11 pm
How does the AI do it? Or: When Flying Commanders Go Wrong.

I had almost the exact battle result this turn. Okay, I had a lot more troops on my side, but it wouldn't have mattered; the bold warlords led from the front with precisely the same results...
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round Fifteen: More NationGen [Game Underway]
Post by: E. Albright on July 03, 2015, 11:57:43 am
Do we have any Yanks amongst our players who will require extra time owing to the holiday weekend?

(To clarify, I'm a Yank but need no extra time.)
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round Fifteen: More NationGen [Game Underway]
Post by: E. Albright on July 04, 2015, 09:26:50 pm
Pushed 12h to make sure Luha doesn't stale.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round Fifteen: More NationGen [Game Underway]
Post by: E. Albright on July 05, 2015, 08:39:18 am
Pushed 12h more so I can spend the day plugging away at NationGen's 0.6.0 milestones w/o worrying about whether Luha will stale in a couple of hours.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round Fifteen: More NationGen [Game Underway]
Post by: Karlito on July 05, 2015, 10:07:15 pm
Thanks for the extensions. I was negligent in not requesting them, though I suppose if I had gotten to my computer, I'd have just done my turns.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round Fifteen: More NationGen [Game Underway]
Post by: E. Albright on July 06, 2015, 10:36:03 am
Hmm, so it's clear someone is waging economic warfare against me and/or trying to provoke me into attacking one of my neighbors. So the question now becomes this: is the nation that's trying to wreck Shansahr's economy with Hurricane spam:
If I was a betting giant, I know where I'd lay my money.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round Fifteen: More NationGen [Game Underway]
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on July 06, 2015, 11:14:00 am
Is... That sarcasm or not? I honestly can't tell.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round Fifteen: More NationGen [Game Underway]
Post by: E. Albright on July 06, 2015, 12:22:44 pm
Whether or not it's sarcasm, and at whom any hypothetical sarcasm would be directed, is left as an exercise for the reader.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round Fifteen: More NationGen [Game Underway]
Post by: Darkwind3 on July 06, 2015, 05:50:09 pm
Ignoring any potential accusations which may or may not be made, how in the world do I have the most advanced research? Luha gets 90g/11research mages and can Owl Quill spam nearly as well as I can (and can use Skull Mentors/Imp Familiars to boot), Veroor gets 100g sacred dudes and can also Owl Quill spam, and Djedhur gets 70g chumps for Lightless Lantern spam (who are useless for anything else, admittedly). I have the cheapest mages, but with Drain magic they're basically worthless for research except in the long run due to upkeep considerations (and are entirely worthless for anything else) and my only decent mages are extremely expensive because they are ponymans. Am I just the only player who decided to set a mage to Forge Owl Quill on repeat?

e: It's worth noting that I'll be gone until Wednesday night. If the next turn would host before then, would you mind giving it a little nudge so I can get in before the deadline?
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round Fifteen: More NationGen [Game Underway]
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on July 06, 2015, 09:05:32 pm
I'll need at least 12 more hours on the current turn myself. Work is getting in the way of things so I haven't had time to submit it just yet.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round Fifteen: More NationGen [Game Underway]
Post by: Darkwind3 on July 07, 2015, 08:44:26 pm
Can I have a 6h extension?
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round Fifteen: More NationGen [Game Underway]
Post by: E. Albright on July 07, 2015, 11:03:39 pm
Beyond the 24h extension I had already dropped for USEC_OFFICER? Right now the turn is due in ~40h...
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round Fifteen: More NationGen [Game Underway]
Post by: Darkwind3 on July 08, 2015, 05:31:21 am
Indeed it is! I just checked the time and didn't bother checking the date it was due. Nevermind, then, I'll be able to get the turn in sometime tonight.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round Fifteen: More NationGen [Game Underway]
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on July 09, 2015, 07:20:18 pm
Just so that you guys know, I won't be able to submit any turns until next Monday. So when the next turn comes in could I be given an extension until then? I've already submitted the current turn, so don't worry about it. It's the next one I'm worried about it.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round Fifteen: More NationGen [Game Underway]
Post by: E. Albright on July 10, 2015, 01:04:57 am
I pushed hosting 48h - 'til 1000 UMT on Monday. Enough, or do you need 12h more?
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round Fifteen: More NationGen [Game Underway]
Post by: E. Albright on July 15, 2015, 09:49:31 am
Hosting interval has been bumped to 36h given game age and the frequency with which I've needed to postpone hosting. Hopefully we can keep rolling at the fairly-steady rate we've been doing, though.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round Fifteen: More NationGen [Game Underway]
Post by: Darkwind3 on July 18, 2015, 12:48:57 pm
Sorry for dragging my feet so much in these recent turns! I'll try to be a bit more proactive about getting my turns in before the eleventh hour and about doing the next turn immediately when I'm the last player in. I don't even have an excuse, there's not a (proper) war going on regardless.

Setting all my Corpse Constructs to retreat was a bit of an embarrassment.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round Fifteen: More NationGen [Game Underway]
Post by: Karlito on July 20, 2015, 12:48:36 am
The first stale is mine, how embarrassing. No real harm done though.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round Fifteen: More NationGen [Game Underway]
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on July 21, 2015, 09:22:46 pm
Can I have a 6 hour extension? Work was all day today and so I won't be able to get it in on time.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round Fifteen: More NationGen [Game Underway]
Post by: E. Albright on July 21, 2015, 09:35:44 pm
Done.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round Fifteen: More NationGen [Game Underway]
Post by: Darkwind3 on July 23, 2015, 06:26:21 pm
I can't believe I am doing so badly against an AI stuck in its capital with nothing but barely-capable mages. This should be trivial! And yet I've lost more resources here than I did during the entire rest of the war.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round Fifteen: More NationGen [Game Underway]
Post by: Karlito on July 24, 2015, 10:20:45 pm
Could I have a 12 hour extension?
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round Fifteen: More NationGen [Game Underway]
Post by: E. Albright on July 25, 2015, 02:29:05 pm
You're down to 4h so I gave you another 12.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round Fifteen: More NationGen [Game Underway]
Post by: Karlito on July 25, 2015, 06:05:10 pm
Thanks, but I asked for 12 more hours and used 11 hours 50 minutes of it.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round Fifteen: More NationGen [Game Underway]
Post by: Darkwind3 on July 28, 2015, 07:35:25 pm
And the perfect (probable) end to this disaster of a siege! I lose a thug to tower arrows. Lissikos's actual troops (all three of them) did nothing.

... Huh, I have an E2 Fledgling Crystal Stormshaper. I guess it's useful!
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round Fifteen: More NationGen [Game Underway]
Post by: E. Albright on July 29, 2015, 08:13:00 pm
...and this is why tongues are best bitten...
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round Fifteen: More NationGen [Game Underway]
Post by: Darkwind3 on July 30, 2015, 05:01:37 pm
I haven't even had time to open the turn but judging by that post I'm guessing it might not look pretty for me. Either way, I won't have time to get to it until tomorrow night, I think. Can I have an additional 15h?
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round Fifteen: More NationGen [Game Underway]
Post by: E. Albright on July 30, 2015, 07:31:12 pm
I'll push it 15h so you'll have plenty of time to plan your re-conquest of Lissikos.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round Fifteen: More NationGen [Game Underway]
Post by: Darkwind3 on July 31, 2015, 10:34:28 am
why are those towers so deadly god damn, there's 30 A gems down the drain

fake edit: and i staled too, welp

At least I got a hero! He's E1. Useful.

To be honest, Albright, I had assumed you attacked Lissikos with those Raging Champions in 32 specifically to spoil my fun. Maybe I shouldn't be such a pessimist! At least that didn't happen.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round Fifteen: More NationGen [Game Underway]
Post by: E. Albright on July 31, 2015, 11:44:12 am
Argh, I swear I pushed hosting back. The log doesn't show it though, and we had the email problems with Llamaserver complicating things. Since we had two stales I'd be willing to roll back, though given the intensity of this past turn turns I suspect it's not necessary.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round Fifteen: More NationGen [Game Underway]
Post by: Darkwind3 on July 31, 2015, 12:01:53 pm
Yeah, it's not necessary on my end. I didn't miss anything important.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round Fifteen: More NationGen [Game Underway]
Post by: Karlito on August 04, 2015, 07:51:42 am
So, I figured it was time to just start kicking over anthills.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round Fifteen: More NationGen [Game Underway]
Post by: E. Albright on August 04, 2015, 11:36:54 am
That long, nervous three-way standoff was odd.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round Fifteen: More NationGen [Game Underway]
Post by: Karlito on August 04, 2015, 12:27:08 pm
I realized I actually hadn't given myself any advantage sitting on my hands the last 10 turns. How about you?

Also, I'm terribly sorry USEC_OFFICER; I totally forgot to rename my dudes!
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round Fifteen: More NationGen [Game Underway]
Post by: Darkwind3 on August 04, 2015, 07:54:41 pm
I'll be gone from Thursday to Sunday, so I'll need an extended extension next turn in order to not chainstale. Sorry to interrupt the game just as it's getting interesting! For what it's worth I can't blame you, Karlito.

While we wait, why not play a fun game. I have 27 of an item in my magic item treasury! Anyone want to guess which item?
Bonus: I have 17 of Cheap Spammable #2. Which item could it be?

e: i am really bad at playing fake ea vanheim can you guys tell
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round Fifteen: More NationGen [Game Underway]
Post by: E. Albright on August 05, 2015, 01:53:39 pm
Well, it probably isn't quills, because those would be in use. And it can't possibly be frostbrands or shrouds, since your forgers are working around the clock to just to replace the ones you're losing to Lissikos.

[e] Hosting pushed 72h - lemme know if you'd need another 12h beyond that.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round Fifteen: More NationGen [Game Underway]
Post by: Darkwind3 on August 09, 2015, 04:02:56 pm
I'm back! Sorry for the delay, though I see that as always the time it takes to do the turn expands to fill the time available.

Quote from: E. Albright on August 05, 2015, 01:53:39 pm
Well, it probably isn't quills, because those would be in use. And it can't possibly be frostbrands or shrouds, since your forgers are working around the clock to just to replace the ones you're losing to Lissikos.

[e] Hosting pushed 72h - lemme know if you'd need another 12h beyond that.
You're very right about Frost Brands and Shrouds (sadly). Well, I've got about half a dozen extra Frost Brands, since I'm stealing back most of the ones I lose to Lissikos. I'll note it could also be (and isn't) Lightless Lanterns or Imp Familiars for the same reasons as Owl Quills.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round Fifteen: More NationGen [Game Underway]
Post by: E. Albright on August 09, 2015, 10:46:42 pm
So um. We had a double stale, despite (or perhaps because of) the 72h weekend extension. On the one hand, it was both belligerents in the only interplayer war going at the moment. On the other, it was half the players in the game. I'm willing to roll back or drive on, but I'd lean strongly towards drive on given that this turn had an extra 72h already. I'll go with the consensus, and shan't touch my turn until we've decided, but my vote is for continuing.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round Fifteen: More NationGen [Game Underway]
Post by: E. Albright on August 10, 2015, 08:17:04 pm
Okay, so, no feedback from the staling parties? I'm going to close the window on a rollback, barring heavy objections. I'll push the host time 24h, but I'm going to go ahead with my turn and assume everyone else will do likewise.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round Fifteen: More NationGen [Game Underway]
Post by: E. Albright on August 12, 2015, 03:20:57 pm
So um. Half our players are AWOL at this point - it's been about a week since I've heard from either, and we've had two stales each. I know Karlito disappeared from the EFS game as well. Do we want to pause? Seek replacements? Call it a day? I've been turtling but am still invested in playing, so I'd prefer to look at productive means of going forward, but I'd like some feedback from the other half of the remaining players too...
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round Fifteen: More NationGen [Game Underway]
Post by: Darkwind3 on August 12, 2015, 05:45:03 pm
I'm a bit surprised Karlito and USEC_OFFICER both went missing, what, the turn after the war started? Though I imagine the extended delay had something to do with it. (Sorry about that; if it's any consolation, my vacation was very nice!) I haven't tried to contact either of them. If you have and haven't heard back, it might be best to try to seek replacements.

Worst case, I'm pretty sure the game was leading up to the two of us bashing each others' faces in eventually anyways, although neither of us apparently had the will to set it off. We could just fight it out until there's a clear winner. If you'd prefer to just let the game end, though, I would be alright with that.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round Fifteen: More NationGen [Game Underway]
Post by: E. Albright on August 15, 2015, 09:49:16 pm
Well, I was going to suggest finding replacements, but since you attacked one of the AWOL players that really isn't as viable as it had been. I'd lean towards calling it, because otherwise it's just going to be too weird with two passive nations (and both of us having little incentive to do anything but eat them and try to steal their thrones).

Kind of a pity since my turtling was all about making me even more noxious than I'd been at first blush...
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round Fifteen: More NationGen [Game Underway]
Post by: Darkwind3 on August 16, 2015, 08:05:50 am
Fair enough. It was unfortunate timing that they both began staling the turn before I started to attack, and really I should have just called it off. But it is what it is.

For what it's worth, by the end I had 33 Lifelong Protections sitting in my treasury + the research to cast Fog Warriors (and Army of Gold in 6 turns). I would probably still have lost; I had no idea how to play this nation well and screwed it up basically every step of the way.

Honestly, I didn't devote the time I should have to this game, and as a result I wasn't remotely as aggressive as I should have been (though none of us were), because planning wars takes time.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round Fifteen: More NationGen [Game Underway]
Post by: E. Albright on August 16, 2015, 12:13:03 pm
I got completely paranoid about getting flanked if I attacked anyone - plus my research was something like half of everyone else's for quite a while (though I closed that gap rapidly once I got Cons-6 and blew ~150f on lanterns over the course of two turns).

I had a large stockpile of mandragoras to shred your glamours (12 magic attacks per square will do that pretty handily), and I'm pretty sure my sacreds would still be able to massacre anything they met at this point so long as they weren't grossly outnumbered. It would help, of course, that my top Hall of Fame prospect had been drilling them with an Ancient Master for the last who-knows-how-long so at least half of my 200-ish were level 3+ (some were close to level 5) and thus individually had high enough Attack to rip through thug Defense unboosted (and the Strength to pop Fog Warriors right out of the gate) - and once they berserked they'd have high enough Attack to take on a fair range of moderately Defense/avoidance-oriented SCs even though they were only one attack per square. And that would be with nothing more than a bless for boosting. I will admit the massed Lifelong Protections could have been a PITA for them, though. Not insurmountable, but definitely something requiring support to overcome. My demon knights were piling up, but for the moment only 10 of them were training, though I was seriously considering shuffling around the site users so I could instruct more Demon Knights.

All in all, it would have been messy, but likely interesting. I really didn't have a grasp of just how evil my sacreds were for the first year or two - I knew they were monsters against indies, but when I had 5 plus an H2 kill 20-ish of Karlito's giants (with a prophet leading them) with 0 casualties, I probably should have taken that as a sign to go on a rampage even if it meant I might get swarmed. I'm so not used to playing strong sacred nations...
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round Fifteen: More NationGen [Game Underway]
Post by: Il Palazzo on August 16, 2015, 12:46:14 pm
Quote from: E. Albright on August 16, 2015, 12:13:03 pm
I'm so not used to playing strong sacred nations...
You should've played Qurghannia!
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round Fifteen: More NationGen [Game Underway]
Post by: Darkwind3 on August 16, 2015, 07:29:54 pm
Quote from: E. Albright on August 16, 2015, 12:13:03 pm
I had a large stockpile of mandragoras to shred your glamours (12 magic attacks per square will do that pretty handily), and I'm pretty sure my sacreds would still be able to massacre anything they met at this point so long as they weren't grossly outnumbered. It would help, of course, that my top Hall of Fame prospect had been drilling them with an Ancient Master for the last who-knows-how-long so at least half of my 200-ish were level 3+ (some were close to level 5) and thus individually had high enough Attack to rip through thug Defense unboosted (and the Strength to pop Fog Warriors right out of the gate) - and once they berserked they'd have high enough Attack to take on a fair range of moderately Defense/avoidance-oriented SCs even though they were only one attack per square. And that would be with nothing more than a bless for boosting. I will admit the massed Lifelong Protections could have been a PITA for them, though. Not insurmountable, but definitely something requiring support to overcome. My demon knights were piling up, but for the moment only 10 of them were training, though I was seriously considering shuffling around the site users so I could instruct more Demon Knights.

All in all, it would have been messy, but likely interesting. I really didn't have a grasp of just how evil my sacreds were for the first year or two - I knew they were monsters against indies, but when I had 5 plus an H2 kill 20-ish of Karlito's giants (with a prophet leading them) with 0 casualties, I probably should have taken that as a sign to go on a rampage even if it meant I might get swarmed. I'm so not used to playing strong sacred nations...
What glamour troops? All I had was Corpse Constructs and Bone Fiends. I don't think I had more than a dozen recruitable troops by the end of the game, I blew all my gold on mages. The entirety of my tactical plan was to use demon + undead spam to serve as chaff for A1s with Bows of War + Flaming Arrows, with Destruction spam to help deal with your sacreds' ridiculous armor. If the bows of war with flaming arrows didn't kill your giants, Fog Warriors and Army of Gold would have done little more than slow your victory. I wasn't planning on using thugs for anything more than raiding or army support (and certainly not a core role in the fight) because in my early tests I realized that your giants required ridiculous stacks of half a dozen thugs to defeat even small raiding parties. They're nasty.

I was desperately hoping you would run around with a single giant deathstack when we eventually fought, because that's the only way I could deal with your sacreds. I couldn't figure out a ay to deal with a raiding force of less than half a dozen of your giants efficiently (and honestly I never tested my battleplan so I'm not sure I could have defeated a huge stack of those berserkers even unsupported). My only hope was Mind Hunt, assassination spells, and teleporting Rain of Stones casters to try to kill your priests, all of which can be countered fairly simply (though they can certainly be frustrating).

On my part, I should have been 1) recruiting the S2W1s from my capital constantly, rather than the E2A1s, and 2) using my thugs to raid immediately once I was able to gear, teleport, and self-buff. Raiding nations like this tend to rapidly lose steam once they leave the midgame, but I was so terrified of your giants I didn't want to attack you and didn't want to attack someone else and leave myself open to you, so I just turtled.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round Fifteen: More NationGen [Game Underway]
Post by: Karlito on August 18, 2015, 10:18:49 am
Damn guys, sorry about ruining the game there. I got caught up with some commitments and had some internet access problems.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round Fifteen: More NationGen [Game Ended]
Post by: E. Albright on August 18, 2015, 11:24:11 am
Well, on a positive note, this way we all avoided the embarrassment of Lissikos's immanent re-emergance to crush us underheel - much as they had been abusing the poor elves - prior to inevitably marching to an ignominious victory.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round Fifteen: More NationGen [Game Ended]
Post by: AlStar on August 18, 2015, 06:21:38 pm
We're not talking about my old nation Lissikos, are we? The one that managed to lose all of its armies, wizards, and land?

I'd rather assumed it fell about 2 turns after I went AI. If not, there must be a story there, because I just could not make the nation work.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round Fifteen: More NationGen [Game Ended]
Post by: Darkwind3 on August 18, 2015, 07:51:44 pm
Lissikos survived to the end of the game because I'm bad at ponymans. I stormed your capital something like 3 times and was repulsed with heavy losses each time, even when the AI was down to basically one mage and some worthless chaff. It was embarrassing. For what it's worth, I couldn't figure out how the AI could beat me with a bunch of X1Y1Z1 mages either (outside the one battle where it murdered its own gem reserves to spam water elementals, which was both astonishingly effective and hilariously spiteful and short-sighted; it seemed like exactly something a player would do).
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round Fifteen: More NationGen [Game Ended]
Post by: E. Albright on August 18, 2015, 07:54:40 pm
A brief timeline of the futile sieges of Lissikos:

Turn 24: Elvish scouts probe defenses for the first time.
Turn 25: The defenders of Lissikos repulse the first elvish attack. 48 elvish troops die.
Turn 27: The defenders kill a cloud-trapezing invader, only to be overrun by the follow-up invasion. 10 elvish troops die and the first siege commences.
Turn 28: The god of Lissikos is widely held to have abandoned the faithful, but the walls still hold.
Turn 32: The walls are breached for the first time.
Turn 33: Overcome by hubris, Not Actually A Vanjarl seeks to storm the Invincible Castle alone. He kills a mere 12 defenders before being cut down.
Turn 34: Overcome by rage, the remainder of the sieging army seeks to avenge their fallen comrade. 111 of their troops pay for their folly. The first siege is lifted.
Turn 35: The defenders kill a cloud-trapezing invader, only to be bested by two returning commanders from the first siege. The second siege commences.
Turn 36: The skittish and superstitious armies laying siege to Lissikos flee at the first sign of a sortie from within the Castle. The second siege is lifted.
Turn 37: The commanders return and cut down the meager garrison outside the gates. The third siege commences.
Turn 38: The commanders pay for their folly. Of the four setting up a siege camp, only one survives. The third siege is lifted.
Turn 39: Not An Oiorpata, being made of bolder stuff, cuts down the re-populated garrison. The fourth siege commences.
Turn 40: Not An Oiorpata pays for his folly. Of the four commanders setting up a siege camp, only the survivor of the third siege, Hjalmgunnar, survives. The fourth siege is lifted.
Turn 41: Gere, wondering what the big deal about this place, cuts down the meager garrison outside the gates. The fifth siege commences, even as the proclamation of a new prophet within the walls shows that Lissikos has not wavered in their faith.
Turn 42: In order to lure in more elvish troops, the defenders feign a losing sortie, though they can't entirely restrain themselves and kill 38 troops.
Turn 43: Another vain sortie further bouys the elves' gradually-returning self-confidence. Showing more restraint, no elvish troops perish. The walls are breached for a second time.
Turn 44: Not An Ettin goes to his grim, lonely fate within the walls of the Invincible Castle.
Turn 45: Fools rush in where elves fear to tread. The 9 commanders escape, but all 170 of their troops perish. The fifth siege is lifted.
Turn 47: Hulvid defeats a modest garrison. The sixth siege commences.
Turn 49: Elvish morale is bolstered when they lose a mere half of their sieging commanders to a playful Lissikosian sortie.
Turn 51: History ends, but trends showed a gradual enlightenment on the part of the elves, as they appeared to be shifting to a policy of containment in lieu of incursion. Still, there is little doubt that once the Lissikosians realized they could no longer lure elves into the walls, they'd cease playing with their food and drown the world in endless waves of green scales marching beneath the terrible parme banner.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round Fifteen: More NationGen [Game Ended]
Post by: AlStar on August 18, 2015, 08:08:41 pm
That was an awesome read - thank you so much.

I have tears in my eyes, both from laughter, and the fact that I know, deep in my heart, that I probably wouldn't have done as well defending my own capital.  :o :P