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Other Projects => Other Games => Play With Your Buddies => Topic started by: E. Albright on September 09, 2015, 12:08:40 pm

Title: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Done
Post by: E. Albright on September 09, 2015, 12:08:40 pm
Link to NationGen:
https://github.com/elmokki/nationgen/releases/tag/0.6.7

Proposed rules: Admin takes your user name and feeds it into a (publicly available) online hashing application to generate a nation seed. You play with whatever grotesque nation results therefrom.

Settings:

Game name: Bay12GamesRound417 (http://www.llamaserver.net/gameinfo.cgi?game=Bay12GamesRound417)
Map: Valanis
Mods: NationGen 0.6.7 (https://github.com/elmokki/nationgen/releases/tag/0.6.7)/Sanguine Circle (https://mega.nz/#!eIdlFCrT!_3bOuGNpz54E58ZDn-kX9W2VBILj0s6yOws2qQgNYSo)
Era: EA
Disciples: No
Time allowance: 30 hours at start, presumably
Special site frequency: 55
Random event frequency: Common
Score graphs: Off
Hall of Fame: 15
Artifact forging limit : Limited
Thrones: 18/9/3, with 31/45 to win
Renaming: Allowed
Research: Normal


Masochists & Guinea Pigs:
Spoiler: AlStar: 163851675 (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: BFEL: 251933699 (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Boksi: 408805693 (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: E. Albright: 216481721 (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Elfeater: 298359144 (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Frumple: 275583250 (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Il Palazzo: 289580125 (click to show/hide)





Spoiler: How does PBEM work? (click to show/hide)

Useful links:
Dom4 forums on Desura (http://www.desura.com/games/dominions-4-thrones-of-ascensions/forum)
Link to Edi's Dom4 Database (http://www.llamaserver.net/edi/dom4/dom4_db/dom4_db_403.zip)
An archived snapshot of the Dom3 wiki (http://web.archive.org/web/20130118162532/http://dom3.servegame.com/wiki/Main_Page): Yes, it's still relevant, and it hasn't been replaced yet, so... It has loads of useful information, including strategy guides. Keep in mind that while a lot of this information is still very useful and valid, a lot of it is entirely out-of-date.

Llama Server (http://llamaserver.net/): the automatic hosting server for our game.
Llama Server's map and mod browser (http://www.llamaserver.net/createDom4Game.cgi) (Yes, it's not really a browser, but you can browse the maps and mods here)
Dom4 Mod Inspector (http://larzm42.github.io/dom4inspector/) Very useful. You can browse all the nations, items, spells and sites in the game with it.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round Seventeen: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen)
Post by: E. Albright on September 09, 2015, 12:14:11 pm
There has been some interest expressed in this sort of abomination. So, interest check. If we have enough would-be players, we'll haggle out settings and rules and do this thing. This setup has a lot lower preparation time than most NG games; all we'll need to do is pick a map, era, thrones, and NG settings. If you want to get stuck playing a potentially-OP nation (which could also end up being all hoburgs armed with sticks) randomly derived from your forum name, pipe up.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round Seventeen: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Interest check
Post by: Boksi on September 09, 2015, 12:15:57 pm
Fuck it, I'm in.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round Seventeen: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Interest check
Post by: Il Palazzo on September 09, 2015, 12:16:15 pm
I'm a would-be player!
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Interest check
Post by: BFEL on September 09, 2015, 12:50:03 pm
I'm prepared to get absolutely wrecked
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Recruiting
Post by: EnigmaticHat on September 09, 2015, 04:31:22 pm
In!  Actually apparently already in, thx.  I call Enigmatichatistan :P

So far, I haven't seen a completely irredeemable NationGen nation, but I've seen some pretty bad ones.  Most of them involved either hoburgs or troops with nothing but length 0 or 1 weapons.  Should be fun to see what I get.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Recruiting
Post by: E. Albright on September 09, 2015, 04:49:24 pm
Irredeemable nations certainly exist, although they're happily a bit less common in the more recent versions.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Recruiting
Post by: BFEL on September 09, 2015, 05:21:49 pm
I saw one or two that were on the verge of irredeemable. Like the Mictlan esque parrot-hoburgs. Hilarious, yes. Useful in any way whatsoever? Not a fucking chance. And its not just the hoburgs either. It had blood sacrifices as a nation trait but no blood mages...

And then you get beautiful stuff like Kamigun, where your sacreds are long spear wielding, heavily armored samurai with glamour, stealth, and berserk capable. And they have 18 morale and MR because why the fuck wouldn't magical ninjasamurai have that? Granted they cost 65 gold a pop, but that's not too terrible considering what you get for it.

Oh, hey Albright? I saw a nation with a site that you can enter for "combat training" and I'm not entirely sure what that means? Does that just give experience or is it a direct effect on attack/defense thing? Either way that's awesome, but it would be nice to know.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Recruiting
Post by: E. Albright on September 09, 2015, 07:47:28 pm
Bonus XP every turn for the commander and all troops under them.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Recruiting
Post by: BFEL on September 10, 2015, 05:51:19 am
Oh cool. A few of my genned nations are now 40% more awesome.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Recruiting
Post by: E. Albright on September 10, 2015, 04:36:59 pm
I'll give one more day for recruitment; on Saturday we can work out settings, and hopefully be playing by early in the week. I assume we'll not have too many more people than what we do now, if any. Start thinking about maps, eras, and sacred power...
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Recruiting
Post by: AlStar on September 10, 2015, 05:42:05 pm
I'm in - fingers crossed for something playable.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Recruiting
Post by: Elfeater on September 10, 2015, 05:46:11 pm
IM in
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Recruiting
Post by: Frumple on September 10, 2015, 05:46:28 pm
I... I probably shouldn't, but I'll give it a shot. Been starting to itch for another dominions game, heh.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Recruiting
Post by: RexMundi on September 11, 2015, 04:09:51 am
This is silly
Too late to in?
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Recruiting
Post by: BFEL on September 11, 2015, 06:32:35 am
I'll give one more day for recruitment; on Saturday we can work out settings, and hopefully be playing by early in the week. I assume we'll not have too many more people than what we do now, if any. Start thinking about maps, eras, and sacred power...
For maps hopefully something mid sized for the amount of peeps playing. Also hopefully not wraparound. Its just SOOOO mind jarringly ugly I can't stand it. I should NOT see five copies of a region at the same time.
Er...moving on :P
Era's don't really matter overmuch, and personally I find sacred power doesn't really do anything noticeable either. So basically whichever combo of settings gives me the most OP thing ever is what I would go with :P

As for things like thrones and such I'll leave that to you more experienced MPers as well because in my games I usually play with ALL THE THRONES and it gets silly.

Are story events as bad for MP as the game claims they are? I...really only think I saw two so far, and neither seemed all that bad. One gave me a mummy, and the other gave me goats and then attacked the goats with a dragon and the goats won.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Recruiting
Post by: Boksi on September 11, 2015, 07:01:22 am
Sometimes you get goats, sometimes you get gates to hell.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Recruiting
Post by: Frumple on September 11, 2015, 08:27:43 am
Yeah... I was playing an SP game just recently, and as near as I can tell some kind of story event happened and... well. Something like a quarter of silent sea's indie provinces ended up a hellscape of undead, demons, and garnet amazons, and an army or two of mine almost got wiped by packs of devils. A couple of smaller patrolling groups did get wiped by amazon attacks. It was pretty nasty, ha. Not actually sure if it was a story event or just something related to being adjacent to a garnet amazon province, but still.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Recruiting
Post by: EnigmaticHat on September 11, 2015, 01:18:40 pm
I'd say:
Wraparound yes: its always more balanced, double wraparound would be best.  Also with this many players it should be large enough if you stay zoomed in and focus on your own country you'll barely notice its wraparound unless you get huge
Story Events no: I just don't like them, and yes they do mess with MP balance if they decide to happen
Sacred power normal: I actually find the sacreds generated under this more practical.  They get about the same weapons, and while the sacreds under the other settings do get better stats and health they also tend to be burdened by a lot of unnecessary features that drive up their cost without making them more practical (like, say 20+ morale, 13+ MR, or random resistances).  Not a strong preference
Site rate 55: finding sites is more fun than not finding sites
Research rate normal: preference, also the only way I know how to play plus its the default
Era MA: I've never played an MP game in the MA, but I'm not sure this would even count... also not a strong preference
Thrones: maybe... two per player, half or one over half to win?  All level one.
 
Those are the settings I can think of off the top of my head
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Recruiting
Post by: E. Albright on September 11, 2015, 02:06:13 pm
My proposals, to be accepted or rejected the same as everyone else:

Normal sacred power: ratcheting this up can make the non-sacred/non-elite parts of a nation less relevant.
Story events off: I love them, but they're sooooooo unbalancing.
Site rate: I say 50, but 55 would be fine too.
Research rate normal: because seriously, why would you want anything else?

Now for more controversial opinions:
I'm gonna propose Valanis or Hexiwyr for map. Valanis is non-wrapped, but most of the wrapped maps are overconnected and end up being disproportionately cramped for their size. Also, wrapped maps aren't inherently more balanced. The only thing they offer is a general suggestion that there will be few or no provinces with only one angle of approach. They're not better in general, they're just better for a certain popular play style. Having said that, Hexiwyr ratchets the overconnectedness up to 11, and by making it uniformly overconnected, it's less of an issue. It also would help that its province count would be slightly high for our current player count; the last few games I've played have been painfully cramped and I don't wanna repeat that.

I'm going to also suggest 18+9+3 thrones, with 31 of 45 points (which is to say 17-24 of 30 thrones) to win. This is not going to be a balanced game no matter what, so why not loosen things up a bit? More reason to go with 55 sites rather than 50, come to think of it.

---

Era needs considered, though. Era matters for NG. You'll have more humans and fewer supernatural races in LA, more in EA. Tech will be affected as well: fewer crossbows and plate, more leather and bronze. Abysians are more likely to be replaced with degenerate Humanbred as time wears on. The fae races retreat to their mounds and you get fewer Vann and Sidhe - or giants. Etc. Basically, NG will to some degree mimic demographic shifts in vanilla through the various eras.

---

RexMundi, yup, recruitment is still open. I'll cut things off tomorrow morning, like as not, but you're in.

---

I actually got some significant work done on Caelians last night, so it's possible I might substitute 0.6.7 for a just-released 0.6.8 at the last minute. Assume we're gonna use .7, but if I get something releasable before we lock in and generate our nations, I'll probably switch to that instead. After all, why forgo a chance at getting stuck with hoburg colossi?
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Recruiting
Post by: EnigmaticHat on September 11, 2015, 02:13:09 pm
My angle on wraparound isn't about approaches to provinces, its about approaches to nations.  Having your back against the wall is a huge advantage, being in a central location is a huge disadvantage.  That's why, while the game I hosted is wraparound, it started with everyone getting their own edge of the map.  Furthermore wraparound encourages a more aggressive game as every nation has multiple targets and its much harder to come up with chokepoint centric defense plans.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Recruiting
Post by: BFEL on September 11, 2015, 02:20:38 pm
Albright, will you be my spirit animal? :P
I.E. I agree with everything you just suggested.

As for era I suggest MA then because then you have a roughly even chance of interesting races(EA) and interesting equipment(LA)
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Recruiting
Post by: Frumple on September 11, 2015, 02:41:00 pm
Yeah, I'd back EA's layout on this'un, with 55 (or higher :P) for sites. Same for thrones -- I don't really have an inclination beyond "more" (my usual funsies SP games are 75 on sites and maxed level 2/3 thrones, heh, with mods boosting diversity and power for both). Definitely have a preference for non-wrapped maps (they're easier for me to wrap my head around, ha), but if it's a serious deal breaker for anyone m'okay with wrapped, too. Valanis would be fine.

Era wise, I'd put my suggestion for early. The tech I've seen generating some nations is... honestly kinda' boring, t'me. Whereas more weird critters and stranger mounts and whatnot is very much not boring, heh.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Recruiting
Post by: BFEL on September 11, 2015, 03:19:36 pm
Era wise, I'd put my suggestion for early. The tech I've seen generating some nations is... honestly kinda' boring, t'me. Whereas more weird critters and stranger mounts and whatnot is very much not boring, heh.
That...is a good point actually. Changing my vote to EA then :P
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Recruiting
Post by: IWishIWereSarah on September 11, 2015, 03:51:27 pm
I would like to play too, as it is still open.

I mostly agree with E. Albright :
normal sacred power, story events off, site rate ~50, research rate normal (so your troops matter more than the late game summons), (double)wraparound map.
About thrones, as long as we have a majority of lvl1, and 1/2 to 2/3 points needed, I'm ok.
About era, I'd prefer EA/MA.

Others options
Score graphs: Off (seems obvious)
Hall of Fame: 15 (cool as there are many players)
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Recruiting
Post by: E. Albright on September 11, 2015, 03:54:10 pm
Tech differences will be more pronounced in the next version, what with differentiation between bronze and iron weapons, and bronze armor for "standard" nations. As it is, though, the differences do tend to be more subtle than they could.

Era also matters in re: indy populations. EA will give you more Amazons and barbarians of various tribes; LA will give you more viable alternatives to your national troops, for better and worse, but far fewer basic indy shamans and such.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Recruiting
Post by: IWishIWereSarah on September 11, 2015, 03:59:08 pm
I think MA sounds best, that way :
Would rely on indie crossbowmen if your nation lacks them (LA), but your mages would matter more than the indie ones (EA).
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Recruiting
Post by: EnigmaticHat on September 11, 2015, 04:00:19 pm
After generating some EA nations, I have to go with Frumple.  Much more interesting.  Go on, try it yourselves.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Recruiting
Post by: Il Palazzo on September 11, 2015, 04:57:31 pm
I'm partial to Valanis - it's THE unbalanced game. Why not up the ante with a non-wraparound map?

55 sites, normal sacreds, normal research, EA, whichever way re: story events, with E.Albright on the thrones. No score graphs and 15 in the hall of fame.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Recruiting
Post by: BFEL on September 11, 2015, 05:01:00 pm
Tech differences will be more pronounced in the next version, what with differentiation between bronze and iron weapons, and bronze armor for "standard" nations. As it is, though, the differences do tend to be more subtle than they could.

Huh, weird question: does Dominions follow RL metallurgy in that bronze>iron or is it fantasy metallurgy that puts it the other way round? Never really paid enough attention to it to know for myself you know :P
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Recruiting
Post by: E. Albright on September 11, 2015, 05:12:14 pm
Bronze chronologically precedes iron in most cases in Dominions, and it's less effective aside from not rusting (slightly higher rescost, slightly lower prot/dam). NG is orthodox in respect to this.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Recruiting
Post by: BFEL on September 11, 2015, 05:22:03 pm
Fair enough. And yeah, EA is SOOO much more interesting.

Highlights include: Abysian Scorpion Cavalry, Ur Giants with wings (on two nations no less), and topless griffon riders.

This is just from the sprite previews, haven't even looked at the crazy stats and such because I was staring at the griffon riders.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Recruiting
Post by: EnigmaticHat on September 11, 2015, 05:41:57 pm
I got death power hoburg eagle riders that turn into earth elementals when they die.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Recruiting
Post by: BFEL on September 11, 2015, 05:55:55 pm
I got death power hoburg eagle riders that turn into earth elementals when they die.
I can go one better now I looked through the stuff a bit.

Spoiler: Portmar is insane (click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Recruiting
Post by: EnigmaticHat on September 11, 2015, 06:20:04 pm
...is that an ordinary human with poison cloud and no poison resistance?
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Recruiting
Post by: E. Albright on September 11, 2015, 06:35:38 pm
That's a list of applied ability filters. The poison cloud filter grants +5 poisonres, but since that's not a separate filter, it's not listed.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Recruiting
Post by: BFEL on September 11, 2015, 06:47:53 pm
That's a list of applied ability filters. The poison cloud filter grants +5 poisonres, but since that's not a separate filter, it's not listed.
Ah good ol' required secondary superpowers!
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Recruiting
Post by: EnigmaticHat on September 11, 2015, 06:59:25 pm
So really, they're not so much a troop in the conventional sense as they are a poison battery.  Give them a nature bless, spread them across your line, and poison the entire enemy frontline.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Recruiting
Post by: Frumple on September 11, 2015, 07:04:12 pm
... nature bless actually would probably not help much. They're humans, which means their HP is going to be pretty cruddy and a regen bless close to useless. Better would probably be astral (twist fate, to increase the odds of at least having a turn alive near the enemy front line) or water (getting to the enemy faster, increased defense to maybe survive longer), methinks.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Recruiting
Post by: BFEL on September 11, 2015, 07:08:55 pm
So really, they're not so much a troop in the conventional sense as they are a poison battery.  Give them a nature bless, spread them across your line, and poison the entire enemy frontline.
And then have your lizard cavalry DUAL LANCE their flank while your elite bowfantry rain on them. If the poison line breaks, the bowfantry can fight well enough, and come back as metal men if they get wrecked.

And then of course there's this guy:
** Hero (Fomorian), 0g, 2r, Quarterstaff, Robes.
--- 4W 1S 2D.
--- Hero, MAGICPICKS, ethereal2, invulnerable10, heretic and protected by the risen dead

Who can thug it up once you get him.
I have NO idea why this nation got a fomorian hero. Just NONE.

... nature bless actually would probably not help much. They're humans, which means their HP is going to be pretty cruddy and a regen bless close to useless.
Would the DEATHPOWER thing help with that at all? EDIT: Not much if at all.
Also THEY HAVE JAVELINS.

Note that because you can go full drain and full death with basically no drawbacks (no supply drop from death, drainimmune mages, many of the good units have death recruitment, plus reanimation of those who die to dominion) you can min/max the everloving shit out of your pretender. I'm using a 9W9N Fenrer with 2 order, 2 productivity and something like 8 dominion. Granted he's also imprisoned, but still.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Recruiting
Post by: E. Albright on September 11, 2015, 08:17:25 pm
I have NO idea why this nation got a fomorian hero. Just NONE.

Roughly speaking, for the same reason MA Marignon gets a Raephite hero, or MA Man gets an Ettin.

Note that because you can go full drain and full death with basically no drawbacks (no supply drop from death, drainimmune mages, many of the good units have death recruitment, plus reanimation of those who die to dominion)

No, there's still drawbacks to death. It opens the door to certain bad events, and it's going to wreck your economy - increasingly so as time goes by.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Recruiting
Post by: EnigmaticHat on September 11, 2015, 08:24:34 pm
... nature bless actually would probably not help much. They're humans, which means their HP is going to be pretty cruddy and a regen bless close to useless. Better would probably be astral (twist fate, to increase the odds of at least having a turn alive near the enemy front line) or water (getting to the enemy faster, increased defense to maybe survive longer), methinks.
That's fair.  Reaching the front first would be useless if you're using them as poison batteries, as ideally you would bring along meat shields to give your shieldless 40 gold cap only units a chance of surviving (especially since you can freespawn undead with that faction, which would be immune to the poison and utterly expendable).  But the astral bless sounds good.  I... kinda forgot about it since so few people ever talk about using it.  Usually I think of astral as a priest-mage bless for nations that are playing the really really long game and want to boost everything with magic rings.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Recruiting
Post by: BFEL on September 11, 2015, 08:32:34 pm
Actually so far they have proven to be surprisingly hardy.
Though using them as my front line in front of the archers just resulted in the rather hilarious situation of a independent army starting in a rout being more deadly then if they had stood and fought :P
Oh well, MORE METAL MEN FOR ME.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Recruiting
Post by: Frumple on September 11, 2015, 09:05:22 pm
But the astral bless sounds good.  I... kinda forgot about it since so few people ever talk about using it.  Usually I think of astral as a priest-mage bless for nations that are playing the really really long game and want to boost everything with magic rings.
*waggles hand* From what I understand (which is probably rusty at this point, and wasn't terribly impressive to begin with :P), it's pretty rare that you have a sacred troop that astral will help survivability more than water would (with both fitting in a broadly similar defensive niche, and ignoring the other benefits of a water bless), which is mostly why you don't see it mentioned very often. Something with a lingering effect like a poison could be one of the rare things that might actually be able to get equal/more use out of astral.

... would probably still recommend water over it, though.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Recruiting
Post by: BFEL on September 11, 2015, 11:04:24 pm
Well water and nature works pretty damn well, plus the reanimation thing and damn good death mages brings the whole thing together. Seriously, Portmar is just absolutely goddamn amazing. Only bad thing is its crappy priests, but hey, it can't hit EVERY mark y'know?

As such if/when I use more armies then the prophet army I think I'll just load em up on Onyx Warriors for that glorious archers in life, metal men in death thing. Which is amazing.

Also, did I mention its mages are amazing? Because its mages are fucking amazing. The Frenzied Follower gives it enough diversity to hit pretty much every site while searching, and the death ones with chance for other stuff are so hilariously useful I haven't even tried to recruit their most powerful mage. The rando's pretty much always have 2 death, with a chance for an extra one or branching to fire, earth and/or water means I just spent a round casting two carrion reanimations, a buttload of reanimate archers, a few terracotta armies, and a claymen.
All that from the enchantment path before my pretender is even on the field, and when he IS the first thing he's going to do is cast Gift of Health because W9N9.

I REALLY wish I could play this in the MP game now :(
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Recruiting
Post by: E. Albright on September 12, 2015, 12:19:05 am
No, you don't. You think you do, but when you saw the monstrosities everyone else cherrypicked, you'd be less enthusiastic. NationGen without serious limits on selection turns into an arms race in terms of patience and free time.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Recruiting
Post by: BFEL on September 12, 2015, 07:55:41 am
True I suppose. But I meant more in the "I hope/wish to have something this awesome for the actual game" sense :P

Also the patience and free time arms race might be worth watching in and of itself. At least from a comedic standpoint, though it could easily turn into "watching paint dry contest" I guess.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Recruiting
Post by: Boksi on September 12, 2015, 09:20:34 am
I do remember when we did a NationGen game were everybody rolled their own nation, back in the Dom3 days. I rolled up a nation of icthyids with recruit-anywhere sacreds with awe, and whose magical paths were FWES. I didn't win.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Recruiting
Post by: E. Albright on September 12, 2015, 12:12:50 pm
Okay, we've got 10 people, which is pretty good. I'll still take more until we've fixed a map, and/or actually rolled nations assuming the map has room for fungibility, but I think we need to settle map and settings. I stand by my suggestions, which I'll clarify as including Valanis and 55 sites. Do we have other concrete suggestions? Several have advocated wrap maps, several have decried wrap maps, several have tried to stay above the fray... but I don't think I've heard any other maps named besides Valanis (well, and HexAwyr). Do we have other specific proposals?

(I'd hoped to get 0.6.8 out over the weekend so we could have Yazatas and Daevas thrown into the mix, and while I did get the basics of complex Caelian demographics worked out, there appear to be some engine/DB issues cropping up with advanced description generation, so we will, alas, be using 0.6.7.)
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Recruiting
Post by: IWishIWereSarah on September 12, 2015, 12:56:10 pm
Well, main differences between Hexawyr and Valanis is their size :
Hexawyr is 225+33 but Valanis is "only" ~140+20.
The 6 neighbors by province of Hexawyr will reduce the "large" feeling (because you won't have as many fortresses as you may have in a more classical map, for the same number of provinces).


PS: it's hexAwyr. Desura and google won't find anything relevant with Hexiwyr ;)
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Recruiting
Post by: BFEL on September 12, 2015, 06:32:22 pm
Valanis works for me, same with the 55 sites.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Recruiting
Post by: E. Albright on September 13, 2015, 12:43:02 am
Okay, well, in the interest of moving things forward, unless we actually get some arguments for clear alternatives, it's kinda looking like we're going to end up on EA Valanis with lots of thrones (18/9/3) and sites (55), and normal sacred strength. This is not set in stone, so if you feel this is a fate worse than rolling a nation with berserking Markata sacreds, now's the time to speak up. O/w, by the end of Sunday I'll assume that's what we're going with, hash out our nations, and set up the game.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Recruiting
Post by: RexMundi on September 13, 2015, 02:36:52 am
Sadly I must drop out, as steady internet is not as steady as I thought right now. That and new job
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Recruiting
Post by: E. Albright on September 13, 2015, 03:34:21 am
Hmph, we don't need hash keys from your 2/3s of the alphabet anyway. See if the A-I contingent cares. :p

No worries, mayhaps another time.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Recruiting
Post by: IWishIWereSarah on September 13, 2015, 06:50:26 am
I'm ok with Valanis, especially with 9 players (Hexa would be really big otherwise). Even though it's a non-wrap map, at least there aren't really corners (except for the flying island), so it's good.
And lots of thrones is lots of fun (as long as you don't end up with 3 thrones neighboring your capital :p ) !
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Recruiting
Post by: E. Albright on September 13, 2015, 12:13:01 pm
Well, at this point we have a majority agreeing to my unwholesome proposals, so I'm somewhat inclined to move forward so people can still have part of the weekend to cry in a corner over the indignities the RNG is going to visit upon us all, or otherwise come to terms with/familiarize ourselves with our nations. In that light, we'll be doing Valanis, 28/9/3, 55, EA, etc. And your seeds are...

AlStar: 163851675
BFEL: 251933699
Boksi: 408805693
E. Albright: 216481721
Elfeater: 298359144
EnigmaticHat: 366462460
Frumple: 275583250
Il Palazzo: 289580125
IWishIWereSarah: 111903572

Hashing system: enter username into an online hash function (http://www.fileformat.info/tool/hash.htm), take the resulting CRC32 hash, convert it to decimal (http://www.binaryhexconverter.com/hex-to-decimal-converter), divide the decimal number by 10 (rounded down) so NG doesn't choke on slightly-too-large numbers, and feed them into NG 0.6.7 as specific seeds in the order listed for EA/normal.

The end result is Sanguine Circle; download it here (https://mega.nz/#!eIdlFCrT!_3bOuGNpz54E58ZDn-kX9W2VBILj0s6yOws2qQgNYSo) or generate your own following the exact procedure above.

Our lineup:

Spoiler: AlStar - 163851675 (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: BFEL: 251933699 (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Boksi: 408805693 (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: E. Albright: 216481721 (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Elfeater: 298359144 (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Frumple: 275583250 (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Il Palazzo: 289580125 (click to show/hide)

...

...

...well, no one is going to think it's not EA...
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Recruiting
Post by: Il Palazzo on September 13, 2015, 12:18:46 pm
What's with those Fomorians everywhere!
E.Albright - is that a hoburg riding a caveman?
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Recruiting
Post by: Elfeater on September 13, 2015, 12:23:28 pm
I see giants and organized armies, alright lets see what I got...
Tribesmen and hobbits riding stags, nice... cavemen too...

EDIT: I do get a goat.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Recruiting
Post by: E. Albright on September 13, 2015, 12:36:01 pm
Il Palazzo: does it look like something else? :p [Edit: I probably should give hoburgbred Abysians fossilized cavemen mounts...]

Elfeater: you also get the possibility of recruitable B5s (although StR and very low prob), death-gem-generating temples (although 600g a pop), and blood sac with 55g B1 Caveman mages (although only H1 priests). Yuck.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Recruiting
Post by: Frumple on September 13, 2015, 12:37:33 pm
... don't suppose someone can upload the created mod somewhere else? For whatever reason, th'one linked is... completely nonfunctional on my computer. Firefox just displays a blank screen, Opera spits out nonsense about updating the browser, IE doesn't even recognize it as functioning, ha.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Recruiting
Post by: Elfeater on September 13, 2015, 12:38:29 pm
I am kinda trash at the game, so is that a good yuck? Or a bad yuck?
cause holy 1 is bad, but at least I get some deathgem temples right?
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Recruiting
Post by: E. Albright on September 13, 2015, 12:40:03 pm
Mega uses Flash, and I'm guessing your browsers are too cautious to touch that security nightmare. I'll see what I can do, or you can just enter the seeds in the order listed with EA/normal options and gen it yourself.

Elfeater: you're a blood powerhouse. In some ways moreso than BFEL, in some ways less. You both make me sick.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Recruiting
Post by: Frumple on September 13, 2015, 12:41:19 pm
55 gold blood sac critters, H1 or not, is indeed pretty disgusting in an "Oh god, kill them first" sort of sense, I do believe.

And yeah, could gen it, but... safer to rely on the original :V Zipping it up and uploading to something like upl.co would be pretty painless, I think?
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Recruiting
Post by: E. Albright on September 13, 2015, 12:42:23 pm
Do you need it in zip, or is .rar still okay?
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Recruiting
Post by: Frumple on September 13, 2015, 12:43:44 pm
Anything's fine, just don't remember if that'un takes .rars as well as .zips. Hardly matters, y'can usually just rename it to whatever, ha.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Recruiting
Post by: Elfeater on September 13, 2015, 12:44:21 pm
Okay, so research thaumaturgy then? Is that the sort of build I should do?
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Recruiting
Post by: E. Albright on September 13, 2015, 12:45:23 pm
http://www.upl.co/uploads/nationgensanguinecircle1442166295.rar
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Recruiting
Post by: Frumple on September 13, 2015, 12:46:44 pm
Thanks! Now to see what monstrosities I've been saddled with, heh.

E: ... looks like I get to figure out how to work communions this game. Hoo boy.

E2: Though at least m'sacreds are such complete junk I don't have to worry about a bless. That's... good?
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Recruiting
Post by: E. Albright on September 13, 2015, 12:49:40 pm
Elfeater: you're Blood major, Death not-quite-as-major. You're a bloody-minded EA hoburg Ermor (in case you didn't notice, those are "imperial" hoburgs - fortunately for us you didn't generate any gladiators). Research Blood and Enchantment, and drown the world in waves of skeletons and blood.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Recruiting
Post by: Elfeater on September 13, 2015, 12:52:01 pm
Elfeater: you're Blood major, Death not-quite-as-major. You're a bloody-minded EA hoburg Ermor (in case you didn't notice, those are "imperial" hoburgs - fortunately for us you didn't generate any gladiators). Research Blood and Enchantment, and drown the world in waves of skeletons and blood.
Okay thanks, I will attempt to do so.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Recruiting
Post by: E. Albright on September 13, 2015, 12:55:19 pm
Oh dear lord - Elfeater's even worse than I thought. Turland has 3r Machakan-speed longbowmen with a patrol bonus AND a precision bonus (so 2.2 points of patrol per 10g). On a blood (sac) nation. Kill it with lots and lots of fire!
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Recruiting
Post by: Elfeater on September 13, 2015, 12:58:24 pm
4r actually 3r is for short bows, And my blood sacs are also invulnerable...
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Recruiting
Post by: Frumple on September 13, 2015, 01:01:32 pm
Bright side for the rest of us, turland's B1s are also the only caster they have that won't fall over from a stiff breeze :V

at least until they start running twiceborn or polymorph or somethin'
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Recruiting
Post by: Elfeater on September 13, 2015, 01:10:36 pm
I feel like my nation may be wasting its potential on me.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Recruiting
Post by: Frumple on September 13, 2015, 01:37:13 pm
Welp, looking through things in mod inspector I think the only one of you lot I'm not completely terrified of is Hobina and... actually, maybe Turland. The blood is scary, but the rest of it is more more manageable compared to most everyone else. Though the assassins and death access is ahahahahaha. Some nature randoms in there, too, so there's the vinemen/skelliespam combo.

The rest, though... formorians everywhere, brutal sacreds from at least three of you. Spies. Formorian werewolves. Formorian werewolves. All sorts of other junk. I feel hilariously outgunned right now :V
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Recruiting
Post by: Elfeater on September 13, 2015, 01:40:09 pm
How do I look at this in mod inspector? Figured it out
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Recruiting
Post by: E. Albright on September 13, 2015, 01:52:50 pm
Be aware that, historically, not everything shows up in the mod inspector. I suspect it's less robust when it comes to handling slightly-malformed mod files than the game itself, and for the sake of expediency NG has been know to slightly mangle its mod files to a degree that the game doesn't care about.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Recruiting
Post by: AlStar on September 13, 2015, 02:02:19 pm
Hmm, so I'm a nation of mostly winged dudes... with the exception of my scout? Gee, thanks, game.

Edit: interesting mages, at least. Air/Nature/Fire in various combinations, and one weird dude with blood/air/water/death. Love to have some astral in there too, but can't be too picky, I suppose.

Edit: Hmm, what kind of bless would work with a flying pike wielder? Is there even one?
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Recruiting
Post by: Frumple on September 13, 2015, 02:15:17 pm
Checking through in game seems to be showing the inspector's pretty accurate this time, EA.

Also sweet zeus but turland's ground army is screwed. Those longbows are nice, but, uh. The everything else. Their sacred troop has 3 HP, ahahahaha. It can at least transform into mechmen, but still. I guess the general high defense will help, but. Poor hoburgs.

... and one interesting side effect of the whole formorian thing I've noticed is that the human nations all seem to have old critters as their top tier casters. Thanks, RNG :3

Did just notice that abeig could conceptually have 3 gold sacreds, if they went full turmoil, which is neat. No real reason to, considering their sacreds are even more trash than mine (the only nation that might actually have worse sacred troops than me! Shame they have formorians and don't care.) and cap only, but still. Neat.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Recruiting
Post by: E. Albright on September 13, 2015, 02:58:09 pm
Don't forget to check national sites for bonuses. There's no crazy ones, but Abeig and Ceasar get +75 res, Dheathdaich and Fhuamdar get +50 res, Fairig gets +30 res, and Rizdos kills undead (fortunately, their nightmare sacreds don't count).
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Recruiting
Post by: Frumple on September 13, 2015, 03:11:53 pm
Yeah, everyone that isn't squishy tiny people :V

... like, literally. Hobina, Turland, and Horoken are the only ones without something fancy on their national sites, and also the only ones that have no formorian access. And the ones with fancy stuff don't even have the decency to get less gems. Nationgen, why you hate tiny people :P

Not complaining, mind. It's just cruel in the most hilarious of ways, heh.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Recruiting
Post by: BFEL on September 13, 2015, 03:59:41 pm
God I have NO idea how the hell I'm gonna play this. I was sorta hopeful when you guys listed me as a "blood powerhouse" but boy is that not the case. All my blood magic is random. Meaning I'm basically a water/air...thing that I just don't know what to do with.

I do get superpowered sacreds, but they cost so damn much I probably won't bother till mid/late game (especially if I get wedged in that damn left corner like I always do) and while I have H3s, they can only take 10 dudes, so I'll have to forge crowns for them or somesuch to actually make USE of them.

Its kinda sad that the thing I'm most excited about right now is my BASIC SPEARMAN.
Also I suppose I have good site search ability but
I feel like my nation may be wasting its potential on me.

Actually, MIGHT know where to go on the mage front, but
E: ... looks like I get to figure out how to work communions this game. Hoo boy.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Recruiting
Post by: EnigmaticHat on September 13, 2015, 04:42:56 pm
So we live in a world where Fomorians are the mundane, dominant species while humans are magical creatures that fade into myth after the EA.  I can live with that.

On my phone at work so I can't check Fairig's actual stats.  But I see hoburgs so I'm going to err on the side of pessimism :P
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Recruiting
Post by: Frumple on September 13, 2015, 04:50:58 pm
... I'd, uh. BFEL, those "really damn expensive" sacreds are probably your most cost efficient unit, especially with an N bless, if you go that route. Should probably be producing as many as you can, every turn you can, for forever. I mean, helping the foe and all that, but. Yeaah. You don't just have a superpowered sacred, you've got what is probably the best sacred on the map, that likely has good odds of soloing several sorts of indie provinces* with nothing but an H1 to bless it, nevermind actually using more than one at a time.

*I just tested this, actually. One (1) wave exemplar with an N9E4 bless and the prophetized initial commander took an indie province on turn two. Province was militia and light infantry, plus a surprise azure initiate. Took a limp affliction from it, went on and blew up a province with light infantry, militias, and archers on the next turn. Went back home on turn four, picked up friends, started rampaging in earnest. Mate, these aren't just superpowered sacreds, these are bloody death beasts on legs that could probably rush half our nations and win, even with everyone but us human nations having formorians.

At least for the early game, I'd personally rank Dheathdaich as the most terrifying thing on the map, even with two three other nations having comparable sacreds. They're in second due to those ruddy dying/wounded forms.

E: And EH, you're one of the ones in second. You've got all of three hoburgs in your line up, only one of which even remotely matter (blowpipes), and everything else is formorians, including one of the three formorian giant sacreds in this round. You will also be able to take indie provinces with a single sacred and any priest, if you felt like it :V

E2: Caesar is the third one, by the by. They're also the crazy bughumpers that have the formorian werewolves, which I'd probably give good odds of also being able to solo weaker provinces, despite not be sacred. Ruddy insane inhuman buggers DX. And Fhuamdar, now that I check it again. At least theirs comes with that unrest downside :-\
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Recruiting
Post by: BFEL on September 13, 2015, 04:58:49 pm
Yeah, testing shows you are right on that Frumps. Though the damn advanced descriptions thing LIED TO ME and told me that my Wave Exemplars would come with their own little water elemental buddy and I am extremely mad that they don't now :(

As for "most powerful sacred on the map" LOLNO. Maybe if the elemental hadn't been a lie, but as is they are just giant fomorians. Great, but there are other nations with BERSERKING Giant Fomorians.

So unless I'm missing something I would say that yes they are amaze but not the most amaze.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Recruiting
Post by: Frumple on September 13, 2015, 05:00:53 pm
Their trick comes when they die, bfel. Then they turn into a water elemental. Which itself turns into a smaller water elemental if it dies. Your guys have like 150% effective HP on any of the other giant sacreds, as well as a near guarantee of at least two turns alive and swinging after being killed the first time.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Recruiting
Post by: Boksi on September 13, 2015, 05:06:56 pm
I'm honestly not too impressed by my nation. I mean, I'll try to make the most of it, but it's nothing truly amazing. I don't really see any lynchpin to base my strategy on.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Recruiting
Post by: BFEL on September 13, 2015, 05:10:33 pm
Their trick comes when they die, bfel. Then they turn into a water elemental. Which itself turns into a smaller water elemental if it dies. Your guys have like 150% effective HP on any of the other giant sacreds, as well as a near guarantee of at least two turns alive and swinging after being killed the first time.
That's awesome!
I also just noticed that they all have the gift of water breathing for 50 troops. So basically if I load up on them I can take infinity billion "normal" troops underwater.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Recruiting
Post by: IWishIWereSarah on September 13, 2015, 05:23:40 pm
BFEL => I don't think the waterbreathing counts when it comes from Units (but it does, from the commander version).
Also, I compared them to mine : yours have higher protection, and MR, meaning that their HP are more meaningful, but their higher ressource cost means that you may have fewer of them (a high prod scale could help).

Also, I just noticed : I have access to every magic path. But, except for Death, boosters will be hard to get (my second is air, and I have a 25% chance to get A3 on a STR Cap-only mage, so no Winged Helmet for me :/ ). Even Fire and Death aren't on the same mage :/


Boksi, I love your heavy armored (18 prot) soldiers. The game is in EA so they should be able to expand against (non barbarian) indies easily because of the low damage they will take. Also, stealthy pillagers with good equipment :)
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Recruiting
Post by: Frumple on September 13, 2015, 05:39:15 pm
I like the nearly ubiquitous skelliespam potential fhuamdar has, m'self, as well as the sacred giant (if that wasn't obvious enough by now :V), heh. Those 18 prot critters are pretty tasty, too. Also potential for some nasty battlefield spells in those randoms. Not sure what to think about the sacred arbalester, though...
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Recruiting
Post by: IWishIWereSarah on September 13, 2015, 05:49:15 pm
The winterpower sacred is risky : half the HPs during summer, I think. The resist will come in handy for a few months :p
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Recruiting
Post by: BFEL on September 13, 2015, 06:17:31 pm
Not sure what to think about the sacred arbalester, though...
Well if it works the same as crossbows then BE TERRIFIED. Well, at least if they go for a fire/death weapons bless.

Ranged sacreds can be absurd if you use them like that.

Also I am indeed loving my sacred Giants. Only trouble I've had so far was from what I suspect to be a level 3 throne province that annoyingly uses massed flyers and mistform. UGH.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Recruiting
Post by: Elfeater on September 13, 2015, 07:34:46 pm
Why should I be afraid of crossbows? My troops have no armor to start with. Ha! My units hard counter them!
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Recruiting
Post by: E. Albright on September 13, 2015, 07:50:00 pm
E: And EH, you're one of the ones in second. You've got all of three hoburgs in your line up, only one of which even remotely matter (blowpipes), and everything else is formorians, including one of the three formorian giant sacreds in this round. You will also be able to take indie provinces with a single sacred and any priest, if you felt like it :V

That'd, ah, actually be me. EH is Abeig, not Fairig.

The winterpower sacred is risky : half the HPs during summer, I think. The resist will come in handy for a few months :p

It should be risky. Next NG update it would be risky. Right now, it's essentially meaningless. #(season)power 1 is +1% HP in (season) and -1% HP in (oppositeseason). It's been corrected to either 25 or 50 for 0.6.8, but in 0.6.7 it's still the wrong, painfully-low 1%.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Recruiting
Post by: Frumple on September 13, 2015, 07:58:30 pm
Ooh. Oops.

... in my defense, I can't actually see the images in the first post (photobucket won't load on this computer :V), so every time I'm trying to see who's who I have to go in and quote it, ha. And the url code is a little cluttery.

Though yeah, abeig is... they might be the only ones with worse sacreds than me (I... do have that right, right? Am horoken?). That said, they still have that ridiculously solid formorian battleline and pretty killer battlecasters (air evocations, aahhh). Plus spies. Should be alright, just... probably not go for a bless strat, ha.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Recruiting
Post by: EnigmaticHat on September 13, 2015, 08:56:35 pm
Haha, it was my mistake first, stupid tiny phone screen.

Now to check out my loot...

Edit: I TOLD YOU ABOUT THE HOBURGS BRO

IT KEEPS HAPPENING
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Recruiting
Post by: AlStar on September 13, 2015, 09:13:12 pm
Edit: Hmm, what kind of bless would work with a flying pike wielder? Is there even one?
If anyone's curious, I've decided that a major water bless does not work (was hoping that the +def would shore up their natural 7 defense, while the speed would let them poke things to death.) It was showing some promise against indies, but as soon as I started going up against fomorians, it all fell apart. Back to the drawing board.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Recruiting
Post by: BFEL on September 13, 2015, 09:24:58 pm
Edit: Hmm, what kind of bless would work with a flying pike wielder? Is there even one?
If anyone's curious, I've decided that a major water bless does not work (was hoping that the +def would shore up their natural 7 defense, while the speed would let them poke things to death.) It was showing some promise against indies, but as soon as I started going up against fomorians, it all fell apart. Back to the drawing board.
I would try death/fire weapons. Because generally flying units are only gonna get one shot so may as well make it fucking count :P
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Recruiting
Post by: EnigmaticHat on September 13, 2015, 09:29:20 pm
Off the top of my head:

Repel works via ATTACK skill IRRC, so try a major fire
Major death lets you do MR-resist to get through those pesky shields and armor, doesn't do much for the health though
Major astral does gives you another layer of defense besides your pike (call out to Frumple :P)

My main thought is, the Hobnian Follower can fly, and the Harbringer of Fae Truth can easily cast Cloud Trapeze.  I don't particularly like their paths, but you have flying mage-priests.  Forget blessing your troops.  If you can think of anything at all for those guys to do during combat, they should be the primary focus of your bless.

Edit: Also, repel needs to pass a morale check, so if you want to repel enemy elites you're going to want to stack it up with some kind of fear effect
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Recruiting
Post by: Frumple on September 13, 2015, 09:35:09 pm
Heh. Test games... watching those formorians at work is... depressing. I send in a party of seventy something units and my pretender against an indie province, they do so at a different one with four formorians and twenty some spearmen. I lose a half dozen units, they lose... one spearman. Heeheehoho. so very screwed >_<

... also, first time I've really tested misfortune scales. Even... even Misfortune 1 is kinda' intensely painful. Capital's already been hit with five bad events and the first year isn't even done yet, and my other provinces are starting to get crapped on, too. Looks like I may be reconsidering scales in the near future :V

E: And yeah, astral on those pike critters would probably be a terrible idea. Honestly, I wouldn't be trying to build a bless for that nation at all, except maybe some E for the casters -- their flying sacred guys are kinda' junk, and my first thought is that the only thing that would really make them approach competative would be taking advantage of the stormpower and darkvision... somehow (and considering all the formorians are 50% darkvision, probably not even that would manage).

I mean, they're flying, yes, and they're sacred, yes, but they're human/birdman and squishy with average combat stats (on top of crap defense) in a game where... most everything that's a legitimate threat (sorry, other human/hoburg nations. Those of us without formorian bruisers are in for a mess :P) isn't going to be either, average combat stats isn't going to cut it, and sub-par defense is how you fall over dead to 20+ strength formorians.

I don't think any of the defensive blesses are going to make enough of a difference, for any of the human/hoburg level sacreds. Go offensive if you go for major bless at all. The pike guys are at least as cheap as mine and also recruit anywhere, so you might even consider a major blood just so you at least get something from them as they die in droves -- and the strength buff might help some vs. those prot 18 formorians in particular, which are copious and plentiful. Fire might indeed be a good option for the extra repel, as mentioned (not that it's going to help that much -- most of the formorian access nations have troops with long spears, which means the pike length is only going to help so much) and extra damage.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Recruiting
Post by: EnigmaticHat on September 13, 2015, 10:02:00 pm
Nonononono do not do major blood with a human health unit.  Not in this game.  Fomorian casters will STILL be able to drop evocations on you, and nationgen likes putting higher than normal magic resist on sacreds.  Plus blood is the single most useless level 9 path on a pretender, unless you splash it with another path to cast a global (and considering which global is the best candidate for that, you might make yourself a lot of enemies doing that). 

I have to say, I had a short list of pretenders I would pick depending on which home realm I was, and... I actually have a random mess of pretenders from different realms including NONE of the ones that I wanted.  Augh.  Still, it just takes one good chassis to make a nation...

(also the mod inspector doesn't seem to contain my entire list of national pretenders?)
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Recruiting
Post by: E. Albright on September 13, 2015, 10:10:36 pm
I agree B9 is a bad idea. Fomorians in general, and sacred ones in particular, have high MR.

Something to consider in all seriousness is rushing Ench and trying to summon chaff faster than they can kill it. At that point, the best sell point of hoburg nations is that you can pack them in 6 to a square so they'll bog down 1-attack-per-square giants.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Recruiting
Post by: Frumple on September 13, 2015, 10:12:51 pm
Hey, the casters are going to be dropping evos regardless, and some of the formorian access nations don't have sacred giants. Plus they might use other guys, too! Maybe. Hopefully. please? though in sudden retrospect I realize in the case of caesar, that please would only result in more werewolves. That is also bad ;_;

Though yeah, probably a bad idea so far as other considerations go. Just trying to think of something that'll make the non-formorian sacreds something more than functionally useless versus formorians in general (I think I've mostly given up on trying to figure out how to consistently kill the giants with my national troops, heh). Honestly, at this point I'm half thinking of bombing my scales and trying to leverage my death randoms to do something in a low/no supply zone... try to starve out the formorians, make things a logistical nightmare. Almost certainly won't (which is why I'm talking about it, ha!), 'cause I'd really want more than just death randoms on an old caster (some reanimation priests would be really nice :P) to try something like that, but... still. Theorycrafting and testing is starting to lean me towards desperation, ha.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Recruiting
Post by: EnigmaticHat on September 13, 2015, 10:23:22 pm
You can't really supply out a sacred heavy strat.  30 size 5 units is 150; at that point you're blocking ordinary human armies as much as them.  And that's a HUGE army for sacred giants.

Since I don't have sacred giants I'll theorycraft with you.

*checks mod inspector*  Umm... if I tell Frumple how to be invincible would you guys be mad?
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Setting up
Post by: E. Albright on September 13, 2015, 10:35:16 pm
Game is up: Bay12GamesRound417 (http://www.llamaserver.net/gameinfo.cgi?game=Bay12GamesRound417)

Start submitting your pretenders when you're ready. Take a couple of days if needed to test stuff out, but go ahead and submit when you feel prepared.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Recruiting
Post by: BFEL on September 14, 2015, 12:25:53 am
I agree B9 is a bad idea. Fomorians in general, and sacred ones in particular, have high MR.

Would it be a bad idea for me? I was thinking of going N9B9 with my supergiants to make up for smaller peeps getting more attacks per square, and because you poor squishy bastards aren't in for enough suffering already :P
But if its just going to be resisted by everything ever I'll do something else.

Quick question: Does the quickness afforded by W9 give extra attacks per turn or just more mobility? TOTALLY unrelated.

their flying sacred guys are kinda' junk, and my first thought is that the only thing that would really make them approach competative would be taking advantage of the stormpower and darkvision... somehow (and considering all the formorians are 50% darkvision, probably not even that would manage).
Well not entirely true. While my Giants are 50 darkvision all my lesser formorians strangely have no darkvision at all. (I THINK that's strange, I might just be misremembering that darkvision is usually ubiquitous for formorians)
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Setting up
Post by: IWishIWereSarah on September 14, 2015, 03:07:10 am
I agree B9 is a bad idea. Fomorians in general, and sacred ones in particular, have high MR.
Would it be a bad idea for me? I was thinking of going N9B9 with my supergiants
What E. Albright means is that the B9 bless won't do much against the giants : There is a test against MR to see whether the damage reversal is applied, but they have high MR, so they won't get hurt that much.

The W9 bless gives 1.5 attack per turn : you get to do all your attacks once more every other turn.

Oh and about the sacred arbalests : don't forget that they're even slower than crossbows. They fire only once every 3 turns. I haven't tested them, but against 70 HP giants, I don't think they may be that useful. With a N9 bless, I think the giants may regen more than the damage they receive, maybe even with a F9 bless.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Setting up
Post by: BFEL on September 14, 2015, 05:30:32 am
Hmm, I think I'll just stick with the N9B9 then. I really only intend that as a counter to massed small fry so it being ineffective against similar sized units isn't as big an issue.
Besides, I don't think I have any decent pretender choices for N9W9 anyway, and I found one that handles the N9B9 awesomely so yeah.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Setting up
Post by: IWishIWereSarah on September 14, 2015, 05:41:01 am
Remarks after a bit of testing :
I'm disappointed.
I don't have a commander version of the werewolf fomorian, and they're clearly not effective against giants.
My 2 main paths are Air and Death :
Death feels useless against the (other) giant nations : they have high max-age, so decay doesn't really affect them, and high MR and morale, so most effects don't apply.
My highest air is A3. So I need A4 on my pretender to get access to boosters and/or storm. Moreover, storm doesn't really affect most Giant nations (lack of ranged units), reduce the utility of my werewolves (throwing axes), and even helps Hobnia (stormpower sacreds).
My lack of good size2 units (only ones are non-armored runners that go faster than the werewolves) means that I have empty space in my on-giant fomorian formations.
and my only range weapons are nets on the runners and throwing axes on the cap-only werewolves :/

Gonna be difficult. Gonna be !!fun!! :)

Hmm, I think I'll just stick with the N9B9 then. I really only intend that as a counter to massed small fry so it being ineffective against similar sized units isn't as big an issue.
Besides, I don't think I have any decent pretender choices for N9W9 anyway, and I found one that handles the N9B9 awesomely so yeah.
You get access to the middle-american pretenders, yeah :D
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Setting up
Post by: BFEL on September 14, 2015, 05:47:51 am
Hmm...so I made the pretender I want, but I'm...iffy on how to send it. I read the OP, so do I send it via email to that address? And will I need something special to upload it or whatever?

BFEL is bad at these things  :-[
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Setting up
Post by: IWishIWereSarah on September 14, 2015, 06:01:43 am
You made your pretender using the tool in the "game tools" menu ?
If so, you should find it near your usual "savedgames" location, in a folder named "newlords". It should be a file named modnat_XXX_0.2h (with xxx being a number).

Then you send it as an attachment to "pretenders [at ] llamaserver [dot ] net", using "Bay12GamesRound417" as the mail title.
The server should automatically recognize it, and will list your nation (or rather "unexpected nation" as it's a modded one). It may take up to 20 minutes before it's listed ;)


I just saw something :
It will be hard for me to cast globals.
I'm mostly a air and Death nation (with A3 D3 capital income, and corresponding mage paths). There are at least 4 nations with at least a mage with 3+ each paths (including 2 nations with the same A/D combo), and Turland even has 6 Death gem income. what is fun is that they're one of the worst nations for a Burden of time global (with only 1 unit+commander with high max-age) :p


PS: Pretender sent.
Now, I know i'll lose this game :)
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Setting up
Post by: EnigmaticHat on September 14, 2015, 11:18:57 am
Umm... if I tell Frumple how to be invincible would you guys be mad?

So I take it no one minds then?
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Setting up
Post by: Boksi on September 14, 2015, 11:24:23 am
I don't particularly mind. Feel free to take a look over my nation too :P

I've actually sent in my pretender but I'm not too happy with it.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Setting up
Post by: IWishIWereSarah on September 14, 2015, 11:25:42 am
As long as you say it in the thread, I don't mind :)

I've actually sent in my pretender but I'm not too happy with it.
With berserk 5 on your giant sacreds, a E9 bless (or even better N9E9) could be really nice. They begin at 14, +5 from berserk +~5 from bless, putting them at a nice value, meaning they won't get hurt that much. the reinvigoration part is cool because of he extra fatigue of berserking. Adding N9 if possible is always nice on giants.
Also, you have access to the African pretenders (the Neters), which are nice titans. I don't think they fit really well wit your national mages/gems, but, meh :/
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Setting up
Post by: Frumple on September 14, 2015, 11:29:55 am
... yeah, go ahead and tell everyone. At this point, I'm curious exactly what you're thinking about. Checking things over again, I'm not seeing any spells that'd be terribly game changing (that other nations don't have access to, anyway), and even less things that would actually make it substantially likely I live to get them :V

And my nationals are kinda' not worth mentioning, ha. Most survivable thing in it is probably the 16 defense van, which is using a short sword, and in testing is... not really survivable at all. To basically anything. Like everything else in the roster, heh.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Setting up
Post by: IWishIWereSarah on September 14, 2015, 11:43:53 am
Well, this Van is a Van : 13 HP (higher than humans), has 15 prot on the body, 16 defense, and Glamour.
And the commander version can lead 120 units, so I think you can raid anybody :)
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Setting up
Post by: EnigmaticHat on September 14, 2015, 11:45:13 am
Alrighty.

Take an N9 green dragon pretender, research evocations 5, alterations 2, and thaumaturgy 1.  Then take your N1S1 sacred mages, and put them in a top heavy communion.  As in, you want at least twice as many masters as slaves.  My recommendation would be 6/2, 12/4, or 30/8.  Bless all the slaves, and then have one of the masters cast personal regeneration.  This will, I believe, give all of the slaves 20% regeneration and a significant health boost.  Any fatigue you add after 200 will be converted to damage, but not at a very high rate; it should all get regenerated away.

Then spam stellar cascades until the entire enemy army falls over unconscious.

Invincibility was an exaggeration, but it will make short work of sacred giants and be really painful against rank and file fomorians.  Bonus points that you should be able to cast small numbers of high level spells in schools that the slaves don't have and they'll still survive (I hope).
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Setting up
Post by: Frumple on September 14, 2015, 12:22:50 pm
... the bless would give them 8 extra HP, and 10% regen. Which would mean they might get 2 hp per turn regen :V

The personal regen would give 20% total, which would be... 3 hp regen. Maybe 4 depending on the rounding. Guess I can test to see if that's actually enough to offset the health damage in that scenario.

Stellar cascade spam was one of the ideas behind the basic "use communion" thing, yeah, but... invincible, or even terribly substantial benefit, isn't something I'm expecting out of it. There's a lot of death access out there, at least one nation that can do the same thing, and more than one that can probably just blow up my base 10 hp casters, 7 point boost from an N bless or not. Plus the problems involved in surviving until I reach evo 5, and keeping those squishy mages alive, especially with an assassin nation on the map and plenty of folks that have fliers that can probably screw over anything I put on the defense.

You said invincible! Still very, very vincible. Also yeah, in that scenario I'd be going with the great mother, horned one, or the lord of the forest -- better paths, stronger dominions, better cost on adding some diversity. Plus I just don't like the dragon pretenders :P

... still, thanks for the reminder about the fatigue thing. I'll have to do some testing on that, see if I can get anything from it.

E: Though in testing, the regen doesn't actually mitigate the damage with those numbers. Slows it down, but especially once the script ends they start losing like a fifth of their HP per turn. Plenty to get a lot off, but...

Will have to try some more with more slaves, less masters. Or just toss the regen thing entirely, heh.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Setting up
Post by: EnigmaticHat on September 14, 2015, 01:03:50 pm
Well then, you'll just have to use Solar Rays on the undead.  Fliers... well, if you survive more than one turn you win, same as usual.  Poison Cloud, Astral Geysers, any of the lightning spells should all be able to make half their army route in decent order (remember at close range most of your spells will hit).

If you can get up two more levels to evo 7 you could do something like Communion Master>Power of the Spheres>Storm Power>Shimmering Fields>Shimmering Fields.  With four slaves and an A2 communion master that'll bring you up to A6.  Alternately forget Power of the Spheres and do it with Orb Lightning.  Either way its a suicide communion but that's a pretty nasty trick for a nation with such low air magic.

If you want to survive against Rain of Stones and the like you'll really want someone who can forge crystal matrixes for instant communions.  Everyone leads the fight by casting Body Ethereal.  Alternately, script everyone with body ethereal>communion master/slave>a bunch of resist-or-die/mind control effects.

But yes, very vincible.  I was mostly meaning as a counter to your early expansion weakness and sacred vulnerability.  I will say that, sadly, since you rely so much on communions you're going to suck on the attack.  On the plus side, thaumaturgy has some good spells for you.  Not many nations can say that.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Setting up
Post by: BFEL on September 14, 2015, 02:03:51 pm
Ok, pretender sent to the appropriate authorities.
Prepare for disappointment/abject terror.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Setting up
Post by: EnigmaticHat on September 14, 2015, 02:30:43 pm
I don't particularly mind. Feel free to take a look over my nation too :P

I've actually sent in my pretender but I'm not too happy with it.
Well, Frumple wasn't too attached to his advice but I'll see what I can say.

You have flying troops and nonflying troops.  This is normally amazing because you can use flying raiders but still have good armies.  Your fliers are... odd, though.  Your only fliers are ranged, and your only flying commander is overpriced, has no paths, and can't bless.  You'll still want to use this, but... eh.  You'll be able to raid out PD up to a point, not much else you can do.  Still worth considering because flying raiders win wars.  I would consider getting a good combat mage (something like: Wind Guide> Lightning Strikex4) and putting winged boots on him.  Your fomorian troops are better than mine, dual wielding overcomes the main weakness of giants (few attacks per square) and shield+javelin is always efficient on giants (javelin isn't any more expensive despite dealing vastly improved damage).  Wind Guide will make javelins more threatening.

You have access to the underwater.  Nationgen doesn't generate UW nations, which makes this automatically awesome.

Your mages are odd as well, but also the best thing since sliced bread.  The disciple of ruin's paths are a trap.  Low blood is often worse than no blood and his other stuff is randoms that will be too rare to justify researching for (except to construct things).  However, he's amazing from an econ perspective.  He's your most efficient researcher AND he's drain-immune, and his paths will also be a key part of your site searching.  Only sad thing is that he's cap-only so drain might still be a bad idea.  I'd do it anyway, just don't take misfortune 2 or 3.  Everything else... is invulnerable Fomorians, do the math.  Also find that one guide on thug equipment.

Your immediate research goals are:
Construction 4 (thug gear + winged boots)
Alteration 4 (thug buffs + Wind Guide)
Enchantment 4 (Cloud Trapeze + Horde of Skeletons)

Any order for those could be justified.  You'll also want Evocation 4 + 5 for lightning magic, but your mages are costly and frankly better used on things other than combat magic (same goes for Horde of Skeletons, great spell, but your casters aren't the cheapest).  Still, you can't win with thugs alone, would be my usual advice to people who don't have invulnerable fomorians.

If you take any bless at all it should be a thug bless to be combo'd with a Shroud of the Battle Saint.  Also if you have access to a Pheonix pretender, you could give him your flying archers and have him cast Flaming Arrows and Wind Guide while auto-blessing them for slightly improved precision.

Edit: actually your access to cloud trapeze isn't great and Horde of Skeletons is enchantment 5, so enchantment is perhaps not an immediate research goal
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Setting up
Post by: Elfeater on September 14, 2015, 02:51:22 pm
Could you do one for Turland?
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Setting up
Post by: EnigmaticHat on September 14, 2015, 03:06:35 pm
It feels weird telling this much to my opponents.  Then again I guess if I gave hints to Fhaumdar's player I should be willing to give hints to anyone (invulnerable fomorians WTF).

Well, either way I have to go to work now so the hints will have to wait.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Setting up
Post by: Frumple on September 14, 2015, 03:09:51 pm
Eehh, you reminded me of a few things and lead me to what I ended up doing, EH. Just didn't think I'd get enough out of an N bless for the cost of it, heh.

Pretender's submitted, by the by. Good luck, erryone. Not that something like half of you need it :P
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Setting up
Post by: IWishIWereSarah on September 14, 2015, 03:22:34 pm
I don't think Fhaumdar's Invulnerable fomorian matter that much.
Yeah, there have invul 20, but they also have crappy stats, so they won't be really effective as thugs. I'd loev to have invul 20 on a fomorian with F3 to cast some fire blast, but the casters don't have really god paths either.
I think I'd prefer them without the invulnerability, as they would be cheaper, personally (though it will be useful when they get hit by a stray arrow).
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Setting up
Post by: BFEL on September 14, 2015, 04:09:22 pm
I could ALSO USE TIPS EH :P

Honestly I mostly know what I'll be doing this round, but I want to hear what your strategy would be anyway in case I missed the best thing ever or something. Which is entirely possible, this being my first MP game and all.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Setting up
Post by: AlStar on September 14, 2015, 05:28:14 pm
My god's in, although I don't know that I'll have any real chance - I'm having real problems even just against the AI in my test games.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Setting up
Post by: IWishIWereSarah on September 14, 2015, 05:57:28 pm
Aren't your 18 protection soldiers useful in the expansion phase ?
I mean, nearly nobody can hurt them, right ?
I wouldn't know how to play your sacred troops, but a light bless (E4 or E4A4 to get access to an elemental staff) can boost you mages just what they need. Also, the shape changing on the cap-only mages trigger when they get hurt, right ?
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Setting up
Post by: E. Albright on September 14, 2015, 06:09:47 pm
My die is cast as well... Two One to go? Elfeater and EnigmaticHat, I believe?

Oh, Il Palazzo? Should you chose to use your Nightmares, feel free to give some feedback. I made those things over a year ago and haven't heard one peep back about them. They're closely modeled on indy nightmares, but I'm quite suspicious they're possibly severely overpriced.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Submitting pretenders
Post by: IWishIWereSarah on September 14, 2015, 06:23:53 pm
The nightmares (riders) are weird. They have only 11 HP, which is low for cavalry, I think, but at least they cost only 25r. And with a defense of 23, and fear5 on a unit (same as Demon knight which cost 5 blood slaves and a nice mage turn)
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Submitting pretenders
Post by: E. Albright on September 14, 2015, 06:27:29 pm
Yes, but... in keeping with the indy nightmares, encumbrance 15. This makes them incredibly fragile...
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Setting up
Post by: Frumple on September 14, 2015, 07:08:40 pm
Aren't your 18 protection soldiers useful in the expansion phase ?
I mean, nearly nobody can hurt them, right ?
You'd think, but you have to remember that protection is probably the worst defensive stat in the game. Especially without something else to back it up, which hobina's critters lack. Even with 18 protection, that 6+ enc, terrible defense (or merely sup-par on the heavy spearmen), and human HP means that they're still going to get damaged fairly often, and when they do, it's got good odds to wound or just plain kill. Add in the high resource cost and map move 1 and... they're actually kind of bad for expansion. They can manage, but they're not much (if at all) better at it than Hobina's other units. You'll lose some nearly every province and probably rack up wounds like no one's business.

With a bit of testing, I can say full prot 18 armies are doing notably worse than the vans I'm having to rely on for expansion (even accounting for the gold difference), despite the good variation I've got access to being stuck with short swords. I'm sure the formorians are just kind of laughing jovially at both of us :V

... with hobina, I'd probably be trying to mass up arbalists with plain spearmen (or caelian ones) screens instead of sending out those prot 18s to ablate off indies. Gold price is the same, but you'll be able to squeeze out more guys with the lower resource costs, and the arbs will hopefully be able to start building up. Which might not be a bad idea at all considering there's heavily armored formorians on the map, too.

---

Bonus points on those riders, though. They apparently turn into sacred mechanical men when they drop, haha! So they're fragile, but they turn into something somewhat... well, equally fragile, but in different ways, with 0 encumbrance and reinvig.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Setting up
Post by: EnigmaticHat on September 15, 2015, 12:06:41 am
Could you do one for Turland?
Alright, this might be obvious, but you either get up a blood economy or die.

Not to put too fine a point on it, your non-blood paths are god awful.  Your cap only recruit is, honestly, you could play optimally and never recruit him.  His price is vastly inflated by death recruit, and you CANNOT take death with such a blood focused nation.  He's too expensive for pure blood spells, and B/D gives you only a single spell worth mentioning, which is Curse of Blood.  That's a fine spell and all, but its research 7 and costs 77 blood slaves and its better spammed than cast once.  So its a distant option.

You could look at this as a disadvantage or you could look at it as an advantage: you literally only need to research one school, which is of course blood.  You'll want to splash construction for boosters eventually, but no rush.  It might seem tempting to go there for the sanguine dousing rods but they aren't good enough on their own to justify rushing construction 4.  Your only hope of standing against the other factions is going to be blood magic, which means you need to quickly research up to ideally level 5 and also get a blood economy up in parallel (no waiting for you).  This guide (http://www.desura.com/games/dominions-4-thrones-of-ascensions/forum/thread/blood-magic-a-primer) is mandatory reading. Your only native crosspaths are earth and nature, but those are great.  Earth will get you Demon Knights; these are great and absolutely worth however many slaves and mage turns you can spare.  You'll also get Rain of Toads, spam it at forted provinces till the unrest goes up so high they can't recruit.  You could cast nothing but those two spells and still do better than most dominions players.  You'll also get the pure blood spells, which includes some nice anti-thug stuff; in particular Blood Burst is low research cost and pretty much irresistible (don't trust the description you need B2 to cast it).  Later on you'll have exclusive access to the unique summons, for this purpose you'll ideally want a pretender with B4F2 to cast Bind Arch Devil which will break you into astral and get you some badass SC chassis.  You'll also want growth and ideally order for the money, since you'll be saccing your population and I wouldn't trust having many provinces given your competition.

Both your blood mages are useful; the Dying Necrolyte is your bread and butter and recruiting a lot of them will give you access to plenty of B2, N1, and E2 randoms.  Don't be afraid to empower blood; it might be worth it to empower the same mage twice or even three times to if they'll give you an important crosspath (although probably not).  You'll need to use the armor of thorns to get Rain of Toads up in a practical manner, that means a source of nature gems and construction 4.

You have access to thugging, but not thugging like the other nations have.  What you have is low cost, low return thugging for raiding.  If you want that kind of thug to do anything against an army you'll want to mass them and have them join another one of your armies.  For some reason you ALSO have invulnerable mages, in this case ambidextrous mini-giants.  They're cheap enough to make that pretty damn badass but their paths are useless and their morale and defense skill are cripplingly bad.  What I'd do is take the priest version, give them a flesh eater axe + whip of command (leadership over 120 gives awe), and then have them self bless for, at the very least, a minor water bless.  You need a source of fear to work with the awe; either use a helm of fear, or send them in with some demon knights.  That's fear+awe+invulnerable+berserking+23 health+whatever your bless is for 70 gold, 5 blood slaves, 5 nature gems, and whatever you spent to get the fear.  Don't be afraid to throw more than one of these at a province.  Also please test them in SP, its kind of a weird design (although I think it will be really good).

You need to find a dump for your ridiculous number of death gems.  I've got nothing.  A million black bows?  A million banefire crossbows?  Totally redundant horror helms (demon knights get fear 5)?  I'd consider telling any dangerous neighbors that if they haven't attacked you by year 2 you'll give them 20+ death gems.  Or maybe trade them for earth/nature gems.

Your national troops are uninspiring.  Your sacreds are too risky to invest in.  Someone WILL find a way to kill them on the cheap.  You've got a great deal on precision 11 longbows, and they'll stay decent even once you've transitioned to demons.  Sadly even if you take a fire pretender it won't be worth the research cost of getting Flaming Arrows.  I'd focus on those guys, get a cheap wall of spearmen, and use diplomacy, threats, or straight up bribery to stay safe till you get your blood economy up.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Setting up
Post by: BFEL on September 15, 2015, 12:40:33 am
I could ALSO USE TIPS EH :P

Honestly I mostly know what I'll be doing this round, but I want to hear what your strategy would be anyway in case I missed the best thing ever or something. Which is entirely possible, this being my first MP game and all.
ERHRM :P
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Setting up
Post by: EnigmaticHat on September 15, 2015, 01:16:40 am
I could ALSO USE TIPS EH :P

Honestly I mostly know what I'll be doing this round, but I want to hear what your strategy would be anyway in case I missed the best thing ever or something. Which is entirely possible, this being my first MP game and all.
ERHRM :P
Fine  ::)

Your hawk riders are a trap.  They just cost too much.  You need to mass a lot of them to reliably beat PD and if your enemy ambushes you even once you'll lose hundreds of gold.

You... WHY DO YOU HAVE AN INVULNERABLE MAGE TOO?!?!  Ok, whatever, yours is a hoburg.  Your special properties is that pretty much everyone of your mages can join a communion (both blood and astral can do it although the only time I scripted Sabbath Master the mage didn't listen for some reason) and they're all priest mages.  This means you want earth on your pretender.  I'd say your ideal bless would be N9E9 or N9E4.  Blood is, as I said before, not worth it.  Bless all your mages, communion them up and then basically cast whatever you want because there's no way you're generating enough fatigue to kill the slaves (note: you probably could if you tried).  You have the ability to do a holy communion, communion up to H5, use Divine Channeling to boost all your priests, and then use Banishment to WRECK anyone who comes at you with an undead army.

You've got a self blessing 50 gold fomorian.  Thug time.  Yet again.  In this case its pretty simple: Frost brand + vine shield/charcoal shield/shield of gleaming gold.  Script bless + attack.  Send them to provinces you don't expect to have armies.  Done.

You've got good, early access to underwater and you've got water paths.  If you can get one of you water mages UW early you should be able to lock out, or at least seriously threaten, any one else who wants to go do there.  At construction 2 you can forge an A2 amulet of breathing to do it.  This is good because you've got nice expansion and there's a practical limit to how far you can expand on land without starting a war.

I'm too tired to think in detail about what to do with your paths.  Uh, let's see... enchantment 5 gets you Friendly Currents, Antimagic, Seeking Arrow, and undead fun times.  Evocation gets you lightning and some other stuff, Evocations 7 will let you cast Nether Darts at a hilariously high path level.  Construction 4 gets you thug gear but you don't need any boosters or mage items in the short term.  Alteration 4 + Enchantment 4 gets you Winter Ward + Wolven Winter, and all it will cost you is a ton of water gems and still not be that great unless the fight goes forever.  I dunno, Alteration gets you some stuff but not enough stuff unless you want invest more heavily in thugs than I think you should.

Oh and you'll want to do blood eventually but not early and it will never be your main shtick.

Edit: now to finalize my own strategy.  Anyone want me to delay submitting the pretender?
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Submitting pretenders
Post by: IWishIWereSarah on September 15, 2015, 03:38:01 am
Well, first turn is a go !

Time to complain about the starting positions ! :D
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Submitting pretenders
Post by: Il Palazzo on September 15, 2015, 04:39:47 am
Sigh. Throne of splendour is on the map. As if the sacred giants were not enough of a problem.

Is it too early to call for an alliance of underdogs against everyone with size-6 units?
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Submitting pretenders
Post by: IWishIWereSarah on September 15, 2015, 05:01:40 am
Is it too early to call for an alliance of underdogs against everyone with size-6 units?
Kind of masturbatory, isn't it ?
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Submitting pretenders
Post by: BFEL on September 15, 2015, 05:42:02 am
Ok got the turn file, but don't know how to use it?

I opened the savedgames directory and made a new folder for the game, put the file in there, but nothing happened.

BFEL is confuse.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Submitting pretenders
Post by: Il Palazzo on September 15, 2015, 05:47:17 am
Ok got the turn file, but don't know how to use it?

I opened the savedgames directory and made a new folder for the game, put the file in there, but nothing happened.

BFEL is confuse.
I have the same thing happen every time I use nationgen nations. You need to create a single-player game with your nation, launch it, then exit. It should work then.
Sadly, the procedure of launching and exiting the SP game has to be done every time you restart Dominions.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Submitting pretenders
Post by: IWishIWereSarah on September 15, 2015, 06:44:55 am
Yeah, apparently it also happens with some "normal" modded nations : you have to load your nation with a single-player game for it to be usable in the MP game ;)
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Submitting pretenders
Post by: Frumple on September 15, 2015, 07:29:52 am
... so anyone else get stuck in a strictly negative starting province? Wanna' see if I've got any suffering buddies, heh.

Starting to think less tongue-in-cheek that this game hates short people. And yes, I'm aware giving hints like that is probably a bad idea. There's enough swamp and wasteland on the map I don't much care. Also, m'kinda' buggered anyway, so might as well play things loose :V
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Submitting pretenders
Post by: IWishIWereSarah on September 15, 2015, 07:36:25 am
Well, I know I don't have many (land) provinces around my capital, and not many expansion directions, but I think I can still handle it.

Also, Frumple : You only have a Str mage as far as cap-only units go, so it could have been worse ;)
(says the one with cap-only sacred and cap-only werewolves)

Also, given our mainly non-ranged nations, I wonder who will buy the mercenaries first ^^
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Submitting pretenders
Post by: E. Albright on September 15, 2015, 10:35:26 am
...is no one else going to step up and do it? *sigh*


Thrones:
Level 3: Sun, Splendour, Elements
Level 2: 1st Age, Golden, Life, Moon, Fortune, Misfortune, Iron, Outer, Fire
Level 1: High. 2nd Age, Ice, Spring, Storms, Stars, Autumn, Winter, Stability, Bones, Law, Brass, War, Night, Beasts, Pestilence, Lower, Flames
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Submitting pretenders
Post by: IWishIWereSarah on September 15, 2015, 10:39:56 am
Oh my god. You guys all have a N9 bless, haven't you ?
"Prince of the Eternal Forest", "Queen of the Hunt", "Prince of Fertility", "King of Growth", "Prince of Verdure, God of Plants and Trees", "Master of the Foothils" ?
Only Turland is ... B9 ? :/
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Submitting pretenders
Post by: Frumple on September 15, 2015, 10:50:48 am
Nah, those don't necessarily entail a major bless. Just minor (and some growth scales, in some cases).

... though, looking into the generation process, I hadn't realized those titles were quite as spoilery as they are. Knew domain choices had an influence, but I hadn't realized they were quite as telling.

E: Well, except for the Eternal Forest one. That's definitely N9. The rest are negotiable -- foothills isn't even about nature, that's an E minor at minimum.

E2: Though... yeah, any of those with sacred giants and a nature title are probably rocking N9. We knew this was coming :P

It's going to be interesting to see if/to what extent there's a fight over mother oak/gift of health/etc., ha.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Submitting pretenders
Post by: IWishIWereSarah on September 15, 2015, 11:31:01 am
You know what is funny ?
The nation with 4 N gem generation (Hobnia) doesn't have sacred giants.
The other nations with guaranteed N mages don't have sacred giants.
I think my nation is the only one with N chances in its nat mages with sacred giants (and it's 60% of N1 on a non-main mage)
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Submitting pretenders
Post by: E. Albright on September 15, 2015, 11:48:27 am
Mrmph, I've got 37.5% N1-2/12.5% N2 on my cap-only tertiary mages.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Submitting pretenders
Post by: Frumple on September 15, 2015, 12:00:27 pm
*waggles hand* High N on a no/low nature nation is a pretty safe risk in EA. N1 indies for sitesearch and workhorse stuff are fairly common, and having a pretender that can put out those ruddy N rituals is darn useful. And that's discounting the best major bless in the game :P
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Submitting pretenders
Post by: EnigmaticHat on September 15, 2015, 12:24:22 pm
My cap is a bit light on connected provinces I could actually take, I think that's vague enough not to be compromising.

It could still work out for me.  I'll have to learn a little more about the surrounding area.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Submitting pretenders
Post by: BFEL on September 15, 2015, 01:01:57 pm
Still not working
Looking through and comparing my SP game the SP folder has a TRN file, a 2H file, and a regular file named something like FTHRN. This only has the TRN file. I then tried it after putting the 2H file I submitted my pretender with in the folder, but that did nothing.

Game doesn't show up on my play list and BFEL is still confuse.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Submitting pretenders
Post by: EnigmaticHat on September 15, 2015, 01:05:29 pm
You just need the .trn file to run a MP game.

It should still show up on your list of games you can play.  The folder needs to be in your savedgames folder, and it needs to contain the .trn file.  Then you should have the option of clicking on it, but you won't see any nation inside to play unless you do the whole "load up a SP game and then save+quit" BS.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Submitting pretenders
Post by: BFEL on September 15, 2015, 01:18:07 pm
Well all those are a go but it doesn't show up in the list AT ALL.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Submitting pretenders
Post by: Il Palazzo on September 15, 2015, 01:22:32 pm
Well all those are a go but it doesn't show up in the list AT ALL.
What doesn't show? Even the name of the game? Any folder you make in your savedgames folder, even an empty one, should show in the list of games to choose from. Try making a new one and see if it shows.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Submitting pretenders
Post by: BFEL on September 15, 2015, 01:28:42 pm
Well all those are a go but it doesn't show up in the list AT ALL.
What doesn't show? Even the name of the game? Any folder you make in your savedgames folder, even an empty one, should show in the list of games to choose from. Try making a new one and see if it shows.
Ok THAT ONE appears, just not the one with the game in it  >:(
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Submitting pretenders
Post by: Il Palazzo on September 15, 2015, 01:32:04 pm
Well all those are a go but it doesn't show up in the list AT ALL.
What doesn't show? Even the name of the game? Any folder you make in your savedgames folder, even an empty one, should show in the list of games to choose from. Try making a new one and see if it shows.
Ok THAT ONE appears, just not the one with the game in it  >:(
Copy the .trn file to the folder that is visible. Then do the single player stuff.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Submitting pretenders
Post by: BFEL on September 15, 2015, 02:12:29 pm
Ok, think it was because the other folder had a space in its name :P

Anyway, did the stuffs, do I send the TRN or the 2H file? I'm PRETTY SURE I'm supposed to send the 2H but figured I would check since I have done roughly ALL THE THINGS wrong so far :P

NVM right there in OP
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Submitting pretenders
Post by: Frumple on September 15, 2015, 02:15:20 pm
Is also in the email llamaserver sent you with the .trn file :V
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Submitting pretenders
Post by: BFEL on September 15, 2015, 02:16:08 pm
TURN SENT! probably


Anyway, since we were talking about starting positions, I mostly like mine, just ONE thing that worries me slightly, and it might not be terrible depending on things. EDIT: its actually fairly terrible, but not insurmountable.

Also I MIGHT be the first person to use the renaming feature in this round :P
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: E. Albright on September 15, 2015, 05:41:43 pm
I'm pretty sure most of us did, actually.

On a side note, grr. So it turns out the "engine bug" that kept me from plowing through and getting 0.6.8 (and thus fancy shmancy new Caelian demographics) before we generated our nations turned out to be a 5-character data file fix of trivial proportions, so had I just drilled down into it over the weekend, it would have all but solved itself and we'd've had a newer version (with less Fomorian-ridden seeds, natch) for the game. Ah, well.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: BFEL on September 15, 2015, 05:46:52 pm
I'M HAPPY WITH HOW IT TURNED OUT :P
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: Frumple on September 15, 2015, 05:48:22 pm
... you know, it is only turn two, EA... :P
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: AlStar on September 15, 2015, 05:48:59 pm
It'll be a loss, but I'm willing to restart.  :P
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: BFEL on September 15, 2015, 05:52:02 pm
NUUUUUUUUUUUU WE MUST SEE THIS THROUGH TO THE END

And yes I will remember this and curse myself when I am swimming in hostile undead later :P
ALL YOU FUCKERS GOT SKELLISPAM XD

Which reminds me to thank EnigmaticHat for his advice earlier. I didn't even KNOW communions worked with priest levels. So that was awesome advice
*gives Enigmatic a pat on the hat*
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: Il Palazzo on September 15, 2015, 05:54:03 pm
Eh, let's keep playing this one. It's not like we can't start another one sometime soonish.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: E. Albright on September 15, 2015, 05:56:48 pm
Yeah, keeping playing is the better (albeit more painful, for everyone, even big'uns like me) route - this way I won't hastily rush out a patch; I'll properly finish adding bronze gear to most races, maybe finish the optional vine themes for primitive and agrarian hoburgs, etc. Better this way... :p
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: IWishIWereSarah on September 15, 2015, 06:00:15 pm
And yes I will remember this and curse myself when I am swimming in hostile undead later :P
Thank you for reminding me how I can get the sea provinces ;)
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: Il Palazzo on September 15, 2015, 06:01:49 pm
Yeah, keeping playing is the better (albeit more painful, for everyone, even big'uns like me) route - this way I won't hastily rush out a patch; I'll properly finish adding bronze gear to most races, maybe finish the optional vine themes for primitive and agrarian hoburgs, etc. Better this way... :p
I was wondering, is it possible to mod in new indie troops or are they hardcoded?
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: Frumple on September 15, 2015, 06:06:14 pm
You can certainly manage it via magic sites, at least.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: BFEL on September 15, 2015, 06:13:41 pm
And yes I will remember this and curse myself when I am swimming in hostile undead later :P
Thank you for reminding me how I can get the sea provinces ;)
Fuckberries

Also ARGHHH BOKSI WAITING ON YOU GARGLEBARG :P
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: E. Albright on September 15, 2015, 06:19:03 pm
I was wondering, is it possible to mod in new indie troops or are they hardcoded?

You mean like indy poptypes? They can be modded, but only existing ones. New ones can't be added. I would like to see new poptypes in NG eventually. New mercenaries too; these can be added ex nihilo.

http://www.illwinter.com/dom4/manual_modding.pdf

Look at Chapter 17 for poptype modding. Chapter 14 is mercs.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: Frumple on September 15, 2015, 06:21:12 pm
Thank you for reminding me how I can get the sea provinces ;)
Fuckberries
... caesar has native gift of waterbreathing commanders. Their doom giant ones, even. No need for undead, the sacred giants can jump in the sink just as well :P

All the sacred giant nations have that, actually. The commander versions all have gift of waterbreathing and can cheerfully take 50 worth of anything into the water with 'em. The ubiquity of water access for ~half the nations in the game is one of the interesting things about it! And by interesting, I mean one of the reasons they're going to crap all over the rest of us :V

E: For extra bonus points, they've all got sailing, too. Trying to hold anything along the river is going to be a complete nightmare, ha.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: E. Albright on September 15, 2015, 06:26:05 pm
On the plus side, the giants in this game are only as nasty as Karlito's giants in Round 4.15 at worst - none of them rise to the level of the monstrosities I was fielding in 4.15. Those ones were true abominations.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: IWishIWereSarah on September 15, 2015, 06:30:15 pm
My giants aren't the best of this game's nations. And the waterbreathing from the commander still applies the "poor amphibian" penalties (-3 everywhere).
I tried it in a test game, as even 12 underwater "werewolves" can't beat 2 N9 blessed giants from some of the other nations :/

Seriously, non-giant nations : If you can conquer a shark tribe province, you own the whole river. 3 tritons * 3 attacks per turn means the death of any giant who comes near.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: Elfeater on September 15, 2015, 06:34:55 pm
My giants aren't the best of this game's nations. And the waterbreathing from the commander still applies the "poor amphibian" penalties (-3 everywhere).
I tried it in a test game, as even 12 underwater "werewolves" can't beat 2 N9 blessed giants from some of the other nations :/

Seriously, non-giant nations : If you can conquer a shark tribe province, you own the whole river. 3 tritons * 3 attacks per turn means the death of any giant who comes near.
Other than the sailor ones that is.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: E. Albright on September 15, 2015, 06:39:00 pm
No, 9 attacks per square is pretty much bottled death for giants. Even the big ones. Possibly even the big ones kitted out as thugs.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: Elfeater on September 15, 2015, 06:41:24 pm
No, 9 attacks per square is pretty much bottled death for giants. Even the big ones. Possibly even the big ones kitted out as thugs.
Im saying they can jump over the river yes?
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: BFEL on September 15, 2015, 06:43:47 pm
Seriously, non-giant nations : If you can conquer a shark tribe province, you own the whole river. 3 tritons * 3 attacks per turn means the death of any giant who comes near.
So after I conquer the shark tribe province with my supergiants I use them to secure the UW world? Works for me, saves giants for murdering you squishbuckets on the surface XD
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: IWishIWereSarah on September 15, 2015, 06:44:18 pm
I tried  4 of mine + 1 commander-version as prophet (so +2 everywhere), against 20 shark tritons : I lost.
The prophet was killed second-to-last (so no auto-rout from lack of commander).

So, err, yeah. Let's say the Shark tritons are cost efficient. If I had a province with Shark tritons recruitable, I would get 40 of them in each sea province.


PS: They can jump over the river. But you'd better have something to scout beforehand, or you might attack a capital ;)
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: E. Albright on September 15, 2015, 06:44:38 pm
Well, yeah, sure, but that hardly counts as "coming near". :P
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: Frumple on September 15, 2015, 06:46:29 pm
PS: They can jump over the river. But you'd better have something to scout beforehand, or you might attack a capital ;)
With a ship full of sacred giants and a doom giant commander, that may just end up with a new capital province :P
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: Elfeater on September 15, 2015, 08:26:23 pm
Are blow dart guns any good?
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: Frumple on September 15, 2015, 08:35:03 pm
Eeehhh. They're fairly substantial fatigue damage, which is conceptually good, but they're also range 8, do no actual damage, are MR Resists in a game where most things have high-ish MR, I think mitigated by poison resistance, somehow, and I think all of them are on hoburgs in this game. So, uh. They're possibly not bad? Good might be stretching it, I'unno. Haven't actually done much testing with the things. Would probably recommend throwing up a test game (maybe on talis, to make hitting formorian dirt quick) and seeing what happens.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: Elfeater on September 15, 2015, 08:40:51 pm
My spearmen have them, so I assume they will probably get a shot off before entering into the melee.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: IWishIWereSarah on September 15, 2015, 08:49:50 pm
Yeap, they can be good when you can use them with something else.
Mostly because everyone get maluses from fatigue (fatigue/10 defense penalty, and bonus crit against fatigued units).
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: Frumple on September 16, 2015, 04:16:08 pm
4-5 hours left until we've got a stale, I think. Maybe a precautionary extension?
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: IWishIWereSarah on September 16, 2015, 04:17:08 pm

Hep guys, I totally forgot about this, but I'm going to be away for the next 5 days. I'll bring Dominion 4 with me on a USB key and try to send my turns as often as I can, but I don't know whether I'll be able to make it in time... :/
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: E. Albright on September 16, 2015, 04:27:08 pm
Grumble, grumble, pushed 12h.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: Il Palazzo on September 16, 2015, 04:42:45 pm
Don't push the deadlines this early in the game, E.A. It makes them meaningless.
It makes some sense if somebody asks, or if there's a large war going on.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: E. Albright on September 16, 2015, 04:50:48 pm
Good point. I've always been a pushover about this, sigh. Barring direct request from the involved party, deadlines will roll forward without hesitation until at least turn 15. I'll give some deference to IWIWS because of the early advanced notice and the declared intent to make a good faith effort to meet deadlines, but this is the last "automatic" push for the foreseeable future.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: BFEL on September 16, 2015, 05:35:53 pm
So Palazzo decided to buy up all the mercs eh? Interesting choice

EDIT: Oh, hey Albright? Question about the mod: is it possible to unhide vanilla nations after the fact?
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: EnigmaticHat on September 16, 2015, 10:59:42 pm
EDIT: Oh, hey Albright? Question about the mod: is it possible to unhide vanilla nations after the fact?
I'll cut in and say yes.

Nationgen doesn't hack the game in any way; it writes out a mod file that is actually plain text that can be read by notepad, same as any Dom4 mod.  Go to the very end and delete the line #disableoldnations
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: BFEL on September 16, 2015, 11:49:18 pm
Thank you EH

Also: DAMMIT AGAIN BOKSI :P
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: Frumple on September 17, 2015, 12:00:41 am
Hey, if B wants to use the full time alloted, that's a'ight. They're welcome to terrify us all about stale turns as much as they please :V
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: BFEL on September 17, 2015, 12:11:08 am
I suppose, but right now it seems like they totally forgot this was a thing.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: Il Palazzo on September 17, 2015, 04:42:49 am
General advice for whomever ends up last to submit their turns in Dominions games:
It is a good practice to wait for llamaserver to send you another one and do it as well. It only takes a few seconds for the sever to process the files, and going through what this early on is just a handful of orders takes almost no time at all.
This can speed up the game significantly, especially if RL allows only a narrow window for playing, or if procrastination is a problem.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: AlStar on September 17, 2015, 06:41:36 am
I've got to have some of the most worthless real estate around - I just captured a province worth a mighty 5 gold per turn.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: BFEL on September 17, 2015, 07:06:36 am
Other then my capital all mine are worth 30 gold  ::)
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: Elfeater on September 17, 2015, 12:16:38 pm
Glorious wastes will protect my nation. We need no money.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: Boksi on September 17, 2015, 01:23:18 pm
You've captured provinces? My starting commander got killed by stealth cavalry and there's a giant boar causing a ruckus in my capital.

No, I'm not making that up.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: EnigmaticHat on September 17, 2015, 01:25:02 pm
Sounds like someone took misfortune scales.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: BFEL on September 17, 2015, 01:27:10 pm
Something makes me want Boksi to literally have so many of such troubles that they never advance out of their capital.

Sorry Boksi. I promise if that happens I won't attack you and will just point and laugh.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: EnigmaticHat on September 17, 2015, 03:01:56 pm
*Repeatedly refreshes llamaserver*

soon.  soon.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: EuchreJack on September 17, 2015, 03:42:29 pm
Something makes me want Boksi to literally have so many of such troubles that they never advance out of their capital.

Sorry Boksi. I promise if that happens I won't attack you and will just point and laugh.

That's exactly what happened when I faced Boski the second time in Dominions 3.  It's no fun for anybody, so get up Boski!
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: EnigmaticHat on September 17, 2015, 03:50:41 pm
In Dom 4.16 I'm running something ridiculous like Turmoil 3 Misfortune 3 or similar.  I believed that my disciple, who had never played MP before and barely played SP, would get an awake dragon to counter this.  I didn't realize that with an imprisoned pretender his disciple would automatically be dormant.  So his introduction to Dominions literally could have been having his cap taken by independents on the second turn.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: EuchreJack on September 17, 2015, 04:06:56 pm
In Dom 4.16 I'm running something ridiculous like Turmoil 3 Misfortune 3 or similar.  I believed that my disciple, who had never played MP before and barely played SP, would get an awake dragon to counter this.  I didn't realize that with an imprisoned pretender his disciple would automatically be dormant.  So his introduction to Dominions literally could have been having his cap taken by independents on the second turn.

Wow, you really threw him under the bus, ha ha.

I'm no expert, but I would think in a Disciple game the main God would grab really good scales and count on the Disciple to shore up whatever weakness that entails.  After all, the Disciple has no control over scales.  Order/Growth/Magic1 or Turmoil/Luck/Magic1 seem rather appealing, as it makes both nations into research powerhouses (especially the Disciple, who can use their Disciple to either supplement or replace conventional troops).

Honestly, I'd love to play a Disciple game as the total change in gameplay excites me.  Having a Dragon/Gorgon spreading my Gospel doesn't hurt either.

...And I'm sure somebody has done a Disciple game with SunGod/LichDisciple, named SunGod/SonOfGod: Vowing to bring you back to life whether you like it or not.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: Frumple on September 17, 2015, 04:29:59 pm
You might want to take a gander at the AAR stuff from 4.04 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=137631.465), which I think was the only first disciple game B12's ran so far? Among other things, it looks like the PM dump (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=137631.msg5683829#msg5683829) from the victor team is still up and running, if you're interested in an inside glimpse of what a disciple game can involve :3

E: Fixed :V
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: E. Albright on September 17, 2015, 04:31:58 pm
4.16 (which ends as soon as all of us can be arsed to turn in the current and final turn) is two-player disciple teams, but that's pretty different than 3+.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: EnigmaticHat on September 17, 2015, 04:42:55 pm
Yeah, I'm not sure how our strategy could have been extended to include a third player.  It relied on LA C'tis and Mictlan being far more similar than they might appear from a cursory examination.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: BFEL on September 17, 2015, 06:32:08 pm
Yeah, after this I might try a disciple game if you guys want to, seems pretty interesting.

Also, this being my first MP game means that this is the first time I'll be experiencing/failing Dominions Diplomacy. I actually have a idea for a potential team up, but I'd like to see how they do on their own before I commit to any such things. I'm pretty sure none of us have actually seen each others borders yet, so opening up a dialogue now would be a bit silly.

Something makes me want Boksi to literally have so many of such troubles that they never advance out of their capital.

Sorry Boksi. I promise if that happens I won't attack you and will just point and laugh.

That's exactly what happened when I faced Boski the second time in Dominions 3.  It's no fun for anybody, so get up Boski!
Yeah, I misspoke a bit, not actually HOPING for that, would really suck for poor Boksi, just got the mental image of it turning into a running joke and I'm a sucker for running/brick jokes.

EDIT: Oh, hey Albright? Mod question: is "Formation Fighter" something units can have, and if so, why isn't it more common?
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: IWishIWereSarah on September 18, 2015, 07:54:25 am
I just sent my two turns. I should be able to do the same Sunday afternoon (in ~50 hours).

Apparently, someone really doesn't like their nationnal troops :D
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: Frumple on September 18, 2015, 08:42:00 am
Pretty sure they're just trying to expand faster :P
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: EuchreJack on September 18, 2015, 09:05:17 am
Yeah, after this I might try a disciple game if you guys want to, seems pretty interesting.

Also, this being my first MP game means that this is the first time I'll be experiencing/failing Dominions Diplomacy. I actually have a idea for a potential team up, but I'd like to see how they do on their own before I commit to any such things. I'm pretty sure none of us have actually seen each others borders yet, so opening up a dialogue now would be a bit silly.

Nah, you should totally pick your allies and enemies now, before pesky facts can get in the way.

For instance, I've had good luck vilifying the Great Il Palazzo in the past, as he can probably attest.  In my most memorable case, it was the pairing of a good player with a dangerous nation (Late age R'yleh) that made it a popular message.

E. Albright is also very experienced: He was playing Dominions multiplayer prior to multiplayer on this forum.

EDIT: As for Disciples play, I'd probably prefer 2-player teams.  It's like a Superhero and their Sidekick, plus it removes most possible interteam bickering and politicking.  No third wheel.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: IWishIWereSarah on September 18, 2015, 10:16:30 am
Intrateam, you mean ?

Also, I found out something about Valanis : the sea provinces have much fewer land neighbors than on some other maps (except for the lake(s)).
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: E. Albright on September 18, 2015, 11:44:35 am
E. Albright is also very experienced: [They were] playing Dominions multiplayer prior to multiplayer on this forum.

Lies and balderdash. My entire MP Dominions experience is as follows: 3.01, a 2-player blitzy thing with slMagnavox, 3.02 for the first 20 turns or so before RL made me drop out, 3.06, 3.15, 4.01, 4.04, 4.10, 4.11 as a sub for a turn or three, 4.15, 4.16 as a sub for a turn or six, and now 4.17. So this is somewhere between my 7th and 12th game, depending on how and what you count. Now OTOH, I have an obscenely buggish little mind, a very solid grasp of game mechanics (which has only been made worse by working with Elmokki on NG), and have been playing SP Dominions on and off since Dom1 back in... say... 2003? But I'm not "very experienced" at MP in absolute terms, and my first game of MP Dom was the first Bay12 one, and not before.

EDIT: Oh, hey Albright? Mod question: is "Formation Fighter" something units can have, and if so, why isn't it more common?

It's possible, yes. It will generally (possibly exclusively?) only show up on troops with equipment themed "formationfighter", which would be various flavors of spears and polearms. It didn't seem like it was excessively uncommon compared to its occurrence in vanilla, but I could probably do some tests to check.

EDIT: As for Disciples play, I'd probably prefer 2-player teams.  It's like a Superhero and their Sidekick, plus it removes most possible interteam bickering and politicking.  No third wheel.

Mrmph. It's more interesting with at least 3; that way you actually have to work together and do actual planning and coordination. With two, it doesn't feel like a team, it just feels like a guaranteed ally.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: EnigmaticHat on September 18, 2015, 11:53:23 am
Also, this being my first MP game means that this is the first time I'll be experiencing/failing Dominions Diplomacy. I actually have a idea for a potential team up, but I'd like to see how they do on their own before I commit to any such things. I'm pretty sure none of us have actually seen each others borders yet, so opening up a dialogue now would be a bit silly.
Please, no one team up with any of the nations that have giant fomorian sacreds.  You're hurting yourself in the end if you do.

Apparently, someone really doesn't like their nationnal troops :D
I knew it would be Il Palazzo without even looking.  Last game I played with him he got huge as Machaka by hiring four merc companies at once.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: Il Palazzo on September 18, 2015, 12:36:00 pm
Apparently, someone really doesn't like their nationnal troops :D
I knew it would be Il Palazzo without even looking.  Last game I played with him he got huge as Machaka by hiring four merc companies at once.
It's not like it did me much good in the end.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: EuchreJack on September 18, 2015, 04:16:20 pm
E. Albright is also very experienced: [They were] playing Dominions multiplayer prior to multiplayer on this forum.

Lies and balderdash. My entire MP Dominions experience is as follows: 3.01, a 2-player blitzy thing with slMagnavox, 3.02 for the first 20 turns or so before RL made me drop out, 3.06, 3.15, 4.01, 4.04, 4.10, 4.11 as a sub for a turn or three, 4.15, 4.16 as a sub for a turn or six, and now 4.17. So this is somewhere between my 7th and 12th game, depending on how and what you count. Now OTOH, I have an obscenely buggish little mind, a very solid grasp of game mechanics (which has only been made worse by working with Elmokki on NG), and have been playing SP Dominions on and off since Dom1 back in... say... 2003? But I'm not "very experienced" at MP in absolute terms, and my first game of MP Dom was the first Bay12 one, and not before.

EDIT: Oh, hey Albright? Mod question: is "Formation Fighter" something units can have, and if so, why isn't it more common?

It's possible, yes. It will generally (possibly exclusively?) only show up on troops with equipment themed "formationfighter", which would be various flavors of spears and polearms. It didn't seem like it was excessively uncommon compared to its occurrence in vanilla, but I could probably do some tests to check.

EDIT: As for Disciples play, I'd probably prefer 2-player teams.  It's like a Superhero and their Sidekick, plus it removes most possible interteam bickering and politicking.  No third wheel.

Mrmph. It's more interesting with at least 3; that way you actually have to work together and do actual planning and coordination. With two, it doesn't feel like a team, it just feels like a guaranteed ally.

Sorry, I think I've made that mistake before.  It was probably the expressions of experience in the more widely-known 3.02 and 3.06 that got me confused.  I wasn't following Dominions MP when you had the blitzy thing.

So you are totally not a threat, provided nobody looks at your performances in those games.  But to be fair, most of your victories and near victories that I know about were with Atlantis.

I still like the idea of two-player Disciples better.  The idea of two or more prophets going around just seems weird to me.  Mechanically, I'm used to one-prophet games of Dominions (it is rare, but possible, to have multiple prophets), so it makes the most sense to me.
Eh, I'd probably join any Disciple game and "figure it out" as I go along.

Apparently, someone really doesn't like their nationnal troops :D
I knew it would be Il Palazzo without even looking.  Last game I played with him he got huge as Machaka by hiring four merc companies at once.
It's not like it did me much good in the end.

You'll have to tell us your winning bidding strategy.  Because winning a bid is winning, and winning is best, right?  ;D
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: BFEL on September 18, 2015, 05:38:57 pm
Honestly I think he might be the ONLY PERSON BIDDING :P
Well, one other person grabbed a merc, but I'm guessing Pallazzo just did the minimum bid spread over as many as possible the first turn.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: EnigmaticHat on September 18, 2015, 05:40:58 pm
Its probably "bid 6 over the minimum because no one looks at the merc list early".  In this game in particular its a slightly safe bet that people won't be bidding on mercs given how so many of us have giant national troops.  (BFEL you ninja!)

Two player disciples is a different dynamic, sure.  I'm not sure what to say about it since my ally in Dom16 was so new; I basically served as the de facto team captain since he didn't know enough about the game.  Also we know each other in RL so the coordination was pretty close.

It definitely does open up new strategies.  Both of our factions could mass-produce sacreds, but his relied on forts while mine relied on death gems.  So I sent him like 2,000 gold (500 of which I later got back to rebuild my cap's temple after an earthquake) to build forts and temples, while he sent me all of his death and astral income.  The result was both of us individually having more sacreds than we would have had in a SP game.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: BFEL on September 18, 2015, 05:51:21 pm
Also, this being my first MP game means that this is the first time I'll be experiencing/failing Dominions Diplomacy. I actually have a idea for a potential team up, but I'd like to see how they do on their own before I commit to any such things. I'm pretty sure none of us have actually seen each others borders yet, so opening up a dialogue now would be a bit silly.
Please, no one team up with any of the nations that have giant fomorian sacreds.  You're hurting yourself in the end if you do.
So what you're saying is that those of us playing with giant fomorian sacreds should just start dropping shit like burden of time because everyone will hate us anyway?
Note: Just pointing out the flaw in that logic there, vilifying half the players because they are STRONK is silly, because it would free us to do whatever the shit we want like above, AND DO YOU WANT TO CREATE THE GIANT FOMORIAN SACRED ALLIANCE EH? NO YOU DO NOT.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: Frumple on September 18, 2015, 05:55:31 pm
To be fair, it probably wouldn't hurt you that much. It'd only really nail the non-formorian nations terribly badly, and I don't think you lot actually have much to worry about from them :V

Actually, that mostly extends to all the notably negative globals. It's a sad world to be tiny ;_;
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: BFEL on September 18, 2015, 06:00:02 pm
That's kinda my point Frumple. If we in the Union of Giant Fomorians find that the entire rest of the world wants to murder us, we can/would unleash some unpleasant shit.
So its in YOU GUY'S best interest to play nice with us :3
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: Frumple on September 18, 2015, 06:04:53 pm
Well, no, what I was saying is that we couldn't do anything about it anyway. Only thing really stopping y'is torquing off the other giants :P
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: EnigmaticHat on September 18, 2015, 06:13:09 pm
Also, this being my first MP game means that this is the first time I'll be experiencing/failing Dominions Diplomacy. I actually have a idea for a potential team up, but I'd like to see how they do on their own before I commit to any such things. I'm pretty sure none of us have actually seen each others borders yet, so opening up a dialogue now would be a bit silly.
Please, no one team up with any of the nations that have giant fomorian sacreds.  You're hurting yourself in the end if you do.
So what you're saying is that those of us playing with giant fomorian sacreds should just start dropping shit like burden of time because everyone will hate us anyway?
Note: Just pointing out the flaw in that logic there, vilifying half the players because they are STRONK is silly, because it would free us to do whatever the shit we want like above, AND DO YOU WANT TO CREATE THE GIANT FOMORIAN SACRED ALLIANCE EH? NO YOU DO NOT.
I'm not villifying you.  I'm saying that sacreds tend to be better early.  Usually, sacred-heavy nations burn out later on because their mages or national troops are weaker to compensate.  But nationgen doesn't give nations with powerful sacreds weaker mages or national troops.  So if you help a nation with powerful sacreds get big, they're going to snowball, and now you're neighboring the most powerful warmonger around.

Basically, allying with a sacred giant nation is A not in anyone's interests (including other sacred giant nations) and B arguably rather mean to everyone else.  Think about it.  Why ally with your main rival when you could ally with a lesser rival?  That way when the betrayal comes (there can only be one winner), your former ally isn't an unstoppable juggernaut.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: BFEL on September 18, 2015, 06:25:20 pm
Why ally with your main rival when you could ally with a lesser rival?  That way when the betrayal comes (there can only be one winner), your former ally isn't an unstoppable juggernaut.
fuck...he KNOWS


Well looks like Palazzo is gonna be the first to get himself a throne.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: EuchreJack on September 19, 2015, 07:04:45 pm
Why ally with your main rival when you could ally with a lesser rival?  That way when the betrayal comes (there can only be one winner), your former ally isn't an unstoppable juggernaut.
fuck...he KNOWS


Well looks like Palazzo is gonna be the first to get himself a throne.

You should probably all just gang up on Palazzo now.  :P
Just kidding, just kidding.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: BFEL on September 19, 2015, 07:20:23 pm
Note: diplomacy via limerick is hard.

Please advise if you need OOC clarification.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: E. Albright on September 19, 2015, 08:53:47 pm
I'm gonna go ahead and push 12h in good faith that IWIWS will, as per their prior statements, get their turn in as soon as they're physically able so I can avoid being shackled to an Internet connection tomorrow.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: IWishIWereSarah on September 20, 2015, 01:29:58 pm
Wow sending turns in time !
Wow meeting neighbors !
Wow seeing how little the Roman empire is ! :(
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: AlStar on September 21, 2015, 07:05:17 am
I'm not sure if I should be more insulted by you sending a Halfling assassin at me or pleased, since you leveled up my mage.  :P
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: Frumple on September 21, 2015, 09:19:03 am
So I'm now betting two death gems I'll be the first one to die. Any takers?

Simple betting rules, you promise gems to the pot, pot's split between whichever lot gets it right. No odds or anything.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: Il Palazzo on September 21, 2015, 09:23:27 am
Yeah, I'll throw in my two water gems, what the heck.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: E. Albright on September 21, 2015, 01:48:33 pm
I'm not villifying you.  I'm saying that sacreds tend to be better early.  Usually, sacred-heavy nations burn out later on because their mages or national troops are weaker to compensate.  But nationgen doesn't give nations with powerful sacreds weaker mages or national troops.  So if you help a nation with powerful sacreds get big, they're going to snowball, and now you're neighboring the most powerful warmonger around.

Basically, allying with a sacred giant nation is A not in anyone's interests (including other sacred giant nations) and B arguably rather mean to everyone else.  Think about it.  Why ally with your main rival when you could ally with a lesser rival?  That way when the betrayal comes (there can only be one winner), your former ally isn't an unstoppable juggernaut.

This logic overlooks one glaring issue. Early on, the squishies, as I like to call them, will not be able to effectively counter the more respectably-sized nations' sacreds. However, further down the road, they'll have the tools to do so. The big boned folk will be nastier too, but not perforce in a manner that's proportionate to the pancakes' increased annoyingness. So while not picking on things your own size before they learn how to do more than simply throw their weight around will make it more difficult to kill them down the line, it probably won't make it proportionately more difficult to fight them later than sooner - indeed, depending on each nation's research and expansion, it may be significantly easier. The nits, on the other hand, need to be dealt with eventually just as much as the other peoples, and nits are far easier to deal with than grown-up lice...
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: EnigmaticHat on September 21, 2015, 03:17:08 pm
Yes, but a sacred giant nation that captures their first cap is going to start naturally seeking their second.  If the war happens early enough they're still in a better position to snowball than a weak nation would be.

So I guess I'll rephrase: you shouldn't ally with a sacred giant nation unless you expect to get more land out of the war than they do.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: E. Albright on September 21, 2015, 04:06:54 pm
Well, yes, but that's self-evident, I'd think, and really isn't at all limited to giants. You shouldn't really team up with anyone unless you expect to get more out of the alliance than them, be it more land, gold, gems, petty spiteful satisfaction, etc.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: BFEL on September 21, 2015, 05:06:19 pm
Well, yes, but that's self-evident, I'd think, and really isn't at all limited to giants. You shouldn't really team up with anyone unless you expect to get more out of the alliance than them, be it more land, gold, gems, petty spiteful satisfaction, etc.

I know what my chief export will be :P
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: EnigmaticHat on September 21, 2015, 05:27:43 pm
You have a unit that costs 85 gold and has an on-death ability, I think that was a given :P
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: Il Palazzo on September 22, 2015, 03:35:10 am
This logic overlooks one glaring issue. Early on, the squishies, as I like to call them, will not be able to effectively counter the more respectably-sized nations' sacreds. However, further down the road, they'll have the tools to do so. The big boned folk will be nastier too, but not perforce in a manner that's proportionate to the pancakes' increased annoyingness. So while not picking on things your own size before they learn how to do more than simply throw their weight around will make it more difficult to kill them down the line, it probably won't make it proportionately more difficult to fight them later than sooner - indeed, depending on each nation's research and expansion, it may be significantly easier. The nits, on the other hand, need to be dealt with eventually just as much as the other peoples, and nits are far easier to deal with than grown-up lice...
On the other other hand, where's the fun in playing where you're not challenged by your opponents?
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: IWishIWereSarah on September 22, 2015, 03:42:25 am
Yay, I'm back and I didn't miss any deadline :)

All hail Augustus Ceasar, Emperor of the Sepulchral Throne !
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: Il Palazzo on September 22, 2015, 05:08:40 am
Has anyone of the Alliance made some testing what land-based indie troops are best at killing giants? Barbarians with their 21 damage? Cavalry with the lance bonus? Ichtyds with their nets? None whatsoever?
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: BFEL on September 22, 2015, 05:19:55 am
Has anyone of the Alliance made some testing what land-based indie troops are best at killing giants? Barbarians with their 21 damage? Cavalry with the lance bonus? Ichtyds with their nets? None whatsoever?
Just use Hoburgs, I'm SURE it'll work out :P
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: IWishIWereSarah on September 22, 2015, 05:34:12 am
(Giant nation here)
It kind of depends a bit.
I know I got wrecked by shark tribe tritons in my test game.
They combine high number of attacks (3 tritons * 3 attacks), with berserk to upgrade their damage and prevent them from routing, with a little extra poison.
On lands, I don't know. Mass Divine-name Air-breathing shark tribe tritons ? :D
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: BFEL on September 22, 2015, 05:50:36 am
Mass Divine-name Air-breathing shark tribe tritons ? :D
At that point you may as well just find a way to summon up giants of your own. Probably cheaper.

Also Enigmatic how the crap did you expand that far that fast? I mean jeez, I'm feeling kinda inadequate, here I am with my supergiants and you're out-expanding me :P
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: IWishIWereSarah on September 22, 2015, 06:00:26 am
Giants are good, but they cost money.
Part of his expansion didn't cost him money directly ;)
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: BFEL on September 22, 2015, 06:06:10 am
?
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: IWishIWereSarah on September 22, 2015, 06:22:27 am
His pretender. I'm talking about his pretender. Aren't you his neighbor ?
Haven't you realized that he had the double of your gold income and will soon get more gems and forts and mages too ?

(not antagonizing at all :-° )
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: E. Albright on September 22, 2015, 07:22:26 am
Ichtyds with their nets?

#sizeresist (3+4 get a save, 5+6 ignore), so definitely not this,
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: IWishIWereSarah on September 22, 2015, 07:28:31 am
Most giants don't have helmets. So units who have size + weapon-size at 6 or over can kill them quickly with a headshot (10% of the time as long as you can reach it).
Basically, human with spears ?
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: E. Albright on September 22, 2015, 07:52:29 am
On the flip side, native prot of pureblood Fomorians is 6, and the berserkers will be adding 3-5 to that, and shield-head-hits still apply shield prot. Also, if you want to cause limb loss you really should be using slashing weapons, so for size 2 units that pretty much limits you to halberds, glaives (both only 50% chance to slash), naginatas, and bardiches.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: IWishIWereSarah on September 22, 2015, 10:13:04 am
(New turn message) High throne = "Worst Throne", now ?
Please, I have the throne of pestilence. I get spreading death scales near my capital. I don't have to worry about the end of the game, because if I survive 3 years, my capital population will be halved.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: E. Albright on September 22, 2015, 10:48:31 am
...in 4.10, one of the nations had their capital next to the Throne of Winter. They were not a cold-loving nation. There are worse things that can happen to you than being close to even Pestilence...
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: Il Palazzo on September 22, 2015, 10:55:25 am
Ichtyds with their nets?

#sizeresist (3+4 get a save, 5+6 ignore), so definitely not this,
Grasping for straws here.
Continuing this train of thought, what's better to take down the giants, 3x15 slash damage per square, or 1x30 + 1x15?
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: IWishIWereSarah on September 22, 2015, 11:00:56 am
Depends on the giants :
Agaisnt high protection, you want 1*30, against high def, you want 2*15. Me thinks.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: Frumple on September 22, 2015, 11:03:14 am
... I'd probably wager on whichever combination is most likely to manage a second swing :P
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: E. Albright on September 22, 2015, 11:05:39 am
Depends on the particulars. Higher prot points to the latter, higher def to the former... so with berserking giants, probably moreso the latter. However, if you can boost the attackers with e.g. Strength of Giants or Weapons of Sharpness, the former will look better, as it also will in cases where you can deploy Destruction. The former also has the advantage of deteriorating more slowly. However, if they can't punch through the armor with enough damage to outrun regen, that extra endurance probably won't last long enough to matter (i.e., 'til autorout).
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: EuchreJack on September 22, 2015, 12:18:50 pm
Any troops that are Ethereal + Lucky should do well, in general.  And smaller versions of those spells are relatively early (Body Ethereal has a radius of 1, so it actually effects a whole square instead of a single unit...so one giant or an entire halfling squad, food for thought).

By the way, I certainly would not say that provinces from an awake pretender are any ways "free".  There are certainly trade-offs.
The most simple trade-offs are: good scales vs. Awake -- and Magic Diversity vs. Awake Supercombatant.
However, every nation gives up more or less on those two fronts.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: E. Albright on September 22, 2015, 03:06:28 pm
Well, the IMO strongest of the Fomorian nations has magic axes on all their sacreds, so with them ethereal is useless. But yes, for the rest that's true. And if any of us had fae-blooded Glamoured hoburgs... <shudder>
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: EuchreJack on September 22, 2015, 05:07:10 pm
Well, the IMO strongest of the Fomorian nations has magic axes on all their sacreds, so with them ethereal is useless. But yes, for the rest that's true. And if any of us had fae-blooded Glamoured hoburgs... <shudder>

Berserk on the hoburgs would help too.  Easy to cast, may or may not be out of the way research-wise.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: BFEL on September 22, 2015, 09:07:26 pm
Geez the more I scout the more I feel HOPELESSLY OUTCLASSED strategically. I mean, I guess it's too early to really call such things, but like I said, I got one of the hilariously overpowered nations and I'm being out-expanded and...out-everything really.

Also getting tired of missing the times when EVERYONE IS ON AND TALKING GAH.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: EnigmaticHat on September 22, 2015, 09:35:54 pm
Normally I would say "don't worry about winning your first MP game, just try to have fun and learn while you lose".

But, as you said, you have one of the overpowered nations.  So I wouldn't totally count yourself out.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: E. Albright on September 22, 2015, 10:23:21 pm
One thing normally recommended with MP is when you're trying a new nation, fix your pretender and scales, then play out the first 10-20 turns repeatedly. Like, 3-10 times, or until you're comfortably ending up with... I dunno, 9-15 provinces at the end of the first year? The target number depends a lot on the aggressiveness of the people you're playing with, and how densely packed/connected the map is. Granted, in an actual game, everything may go south and you could end up with 4 or 5 provinces floating in an ocean of tears, but you need to know that you have a setup and strategy which is capable of making a good expansion against indies w/o every last star in the sky aligning...
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: EnigmaticHat on September 22, 2015, 10:48:28 pm
Exactly.  My standard for target provinces is to take the total number of land provinces, divide it by the number of land nations, get more than that if you can.  Depends on the nation tho.  If I was playing a nation like MA Pythium I would count my lucky stars to have the "expected" number of provinces.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: BFEL on September 23, 2015, 12:12:39 am
Exactly.  My standard for target provinces is to take the total number of land provinces, divide it by the number of land nations, get more than that if you can.  Depends on the nation tho.  If I was playing a nation like MA Pythium I would count my lucky stars to have the "expected" number of provinces.

And seeing how you've expanded so far if you were playing Dheathdaich you would have ALREADY WON :P
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: EnigmaticHat on September 23, 2015, 12:35:54 am
Well, yeah, duh.  My goal playing a nation like Niefelhiem would be to control 200 provinces by the end of the first year.

(actually Fomorian troops are pretty good at scaring off rabble like Indy light infantry, so I would be surprised if I was the only player with solid early expansion)
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: AlStar on September 23, 2015, 09:36:14 pm
Even though I whined about it when I was initially looking over my nation, I want to say it again, just because: What kind of crap-ass Caelian nation uses Human scouts?!

Hey look at all those provinces that I can effortlessly fly to, but I have no idea what's there because my scout can't cross the river/mountain/whatever! Bah.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: EnigmaticHat on September 23, 2015, 09:43:36 pm
Maybe its considered beneath Caelians to do that kind of work?
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: BFEL on September 23, 2015, 11:08:24 pm
Your Caelians have a crippling fear of success, its the only explanation.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: EnigmaticHat on September 23, 2015, 11:12:45 pm
Your Caelians have a crippling fear of success, its the only explanation.
But if we conquer the world... what then?
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: Frumple on September 23, 2015, 11:22:19 pm
Then it would have been proven that everyone else had an even more crippling fear of success :P

Though honestly, hobina looks a lot more like it's actually caelian's that are the second class citizens. Presumably they aren't trusted to transmit vital information back to the rulers. For all its everything is basically tissue paper on this map, it's fairly metal that they're basically ruled by a coven of magically powerful bears. Bearocracy is pretty hardcore.

Lil' weird they can't summon bears, though, now that I think about it. Maybe the harbringers are worried about competition? Part time bears would probably have trouble holding ground with real ones. Explains why everything is screwed up with 'em, they don't have properly beary leadership, just a pale shapeshifting imitation.

In other news, while typing that, I have apparently convinced myself that a bear-themed nation is a good idea. Hrm.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: EnigmaticHat on September 23, 2015, 11:31:50 pm
Can they cast spells in bear form?  Because that would be kickass if that's the case.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: Frumple on September 23, 2015, 11:42:58 pm
I'm not sure they can even if they had paths. The shapeshift form is undisciplined... never really paid attention to if that effects things or not. Can check real quick, though.

... and yeah, they can still cast. Guess undisciplined doesn't matter for commanders. Lose some paths (looks like a flat -1 to everything, maybe?), lose the flame shield on the one, but they've still got 2N and H1 at a minimum, so they can self-bless. Still probably couldn't win a punch-up with half the things on this map, but yeah, they can cast in bear form.

E: Aww, harsh. Prophetizing them in bear form doesn't give H3, so no divine blessing bears. Shame. Self-bless and holy avenger, though, which is... okay. I guess. Things would make pretty bad thugs, about the only use for bear form would be if they're up against heavy evocations and need some extra health bad enough losing the path access is worth it.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: IWishIWereSarah on September 24, 2015, 01:57:29 am
One thing is sad about the bear form :
It only has a simple claw attack. So basically, you need offensive power from spells, but they have N as main magic, which isn't the best for dealing raw damage (though the bless on them is quite nice :p ).

Also, I understand you issue with scouts.
I don't have a sailing scout. I don't think any of the sacred sailing giant nation get a sailing scout. :/
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: BFEL on September 24, 2015, 05:58:26 am
I don't have a sailing scout, but I have a flying commander who is stealthy, which is much better.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: E. Albright on September 24, 2015, 10:21:47 am
I don't have a sailing scout. I don't think any of the sacred sailing giant nation get a sailing scout. :/

That would require pureblood giants to stoop so low as to scout. That's a task better left to the kids.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: Frumple on September 24, 2015, 10:32:21 am
Silly, though. You giant lot do have sailing scouts. They just have a very giantish conceptualization of "scout". Not so much sneaking as stomping. Reconnaissance in force, to use the fancy words their air-starved brains don't quite comprehend :V
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: Culise on September 24, 2015, 10:45:18 am
...in 4.10, one of the nations had their capital next to the Throne of Winter. They were not a cold-loving nation. There are worse things that can happen to you than being close to even Pestilence...
Which is funny, because that's exactly how tompliss tried to console me in that game: "at least it isn't death scales across the world"  :P
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: E. Albright on September 25, 2015, 11:02:49 am
Bah, the death scales and diseases hit everyone outside of one province more or less equally. Winter is far more obnoxious for its average owner than Pestilence.

You still had it better in that game than you could have. Your capital may have been getting frozen, but you were at least placed so as to be able to expand outward and grab some rich farmlands to balance out the income loss. Had you been surrounded by deserts, mountains, and/or swamps, having your capital "trapped in perpetual winter" would have been a whole lot more crippling.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: IWishIWereSarah on September 25, 2015, 11:29:09 am
Guys, you know what ?
Second throne I can claim : Autumn.
So yeah, I can claim 2 thrones, both giving Death scales.... :/
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: E. Albright on September 25, 2015, 11:45:30 am
Aw, man, that's such good luck. Well, it is if you crippled yourself with a bunch of Growth scales and were wondering how you could get back to a safe, sustainable zero population growth w/o resorting to pillaging your own provinces. But really, who among us doesn't?
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: BFEL on September 25, 2015, 01:38:00 pm
Well, looks like we have our first death matches. Wonder who else will show up :P
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: Frumple on September 25, 2015, 01:48:41 pm
Not I. Don't have any commanders I need to get rid of at the moment, and I don't think you can send in mercenaries. Already killed off all of those I was done with, anyway :V
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: IWishIWereSarah on September 26, 2015, 08:12:34 am
I'd like to thank BFEL (DheathDaich ) and Alstar (Hobnia) for suiciding their prophet and showing us their N9B9 blesses. :D
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: E. Albright on September 26, 2015, 10:39:20 am
Wait, no love for the Champion of the Arena who showed off their generic, uninspired, cookiecutter bless and decidedly skewed understanding of "honorable combat"?
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: IWishIWereSarah on September 26, 2015, 10:45:08 am
Well, I must admit he got nearly the best item he could dream of.
Not that your sacred giants really need a morale boost, but at least, it's not a trident that would have been waved around with poor skill :p

I would thank you for showing us your N9E4 bless, but I'm not anywhere near you, so ... :/
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: AlStar on September 26, 2015, 11:26:47 am
I didn't use my prophet, just one of my sacred leaders. Didn't go so well, but hey - can't win if you don't try.

Edit: Man, I am having the absolute worst luck findings sites - 8 provinces searched with at least 2 paths, and some with as many as 5, and all I've got to show for it is a Farm of Plenty and a Bile Marsh.  ::)
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: Il Palazzo on September 26, 2015, 01:14:02 pm
Eh, I gotta say, that arena victory was dickish.
Did we not agree not to use these amulets? Or was that only for assassinations?
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: E. Albright on September 26, 2015, 03:07:08 pm
Honestly, we never agreed one way or the other about them in any context. We did in 4.15, but there was not a whole lot of discussion about them in this round. If you'd like to petition for rules changes, however, go ahead and start the conversation, and we can see how everyone feels about it.

Having said that, my experience with arenas in MP has always reinforced the notion that arena victories have a nasty habit of being "dickish" more or less by nature...
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: Il Palazzo on September 26, 2015, 03:28:24 pm
Right, right. That was in the other natgen game.

Still, I'm all for disallowing assassinations with the skeletal amulet - it's just way too overpowered.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: EnigmaticHat on September 26, 2015, 04:26:52 pm
I don't really care but I acknowledge that it is way too cost-effective compared to anything else you could equip the assassin with so I'll second.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: Frumple on September 26, 2015, 04:28:07 pm
... to be honest, I'd kinda' be okay with allowing it. We have all of one native assassin nation on the field, and they're a race of hoburgs. They need all the help they can get. Maybe just allow it for turland, the poor tiny blighters. Be about the only use you could get out of a hoburg assassin, anyway.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: E. Albright on September 26, 2015, 04:38:06 pm
I'm fine either way. My biggest object to the Amulet personally is how cheap it is in terms of price and research - it really probably should be at least Cons-2. 10d would also feel more reasonable. But that's neither here nor there; I'm okay with the stumpy little gits having skelispam or not for assassinations - I'll abstain unless we need a tie broken.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: BFEL on September 26, 2015, 10:10:36 pm
DAMMMNNNN YOUUUU AUTO ROUT!!!!

I mean really, if ANYONE shoulda routed it shoulda been him. I had 30 morale to his 12. FUCKER.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: E. Albright on September 26, 2015, 10:33:41 pm
We both had enough HP and regen to survive whatever damage we did to each other barring lucky bursts, and I could make skellies roughly as fast as you could kill them or they could kill themselves. You drew the short straw and were the attacker. That's the one and only thing that determined the outcome of that stalemate; had it been reversed, yes, you'd've won.

Incidentally, this deathmatch highlights a serious vulnerability of the various giant nations. BV helps to counter it, but as this fight showed, even that's not a magic bullet. Giants have a very low attack density, so if you can throw chaff at them at least as fast as they can kill it, you can at a minimum force a stalemate on defense...
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: BFEL on September 26, 2015, 10:39:00 pm
You drew the short straw and were the attacker. That's the one and only thing that determined the outcome of that stalemate; had it been reversed, yes, you'd've won.

This is like the #1 worst thing about Dominions.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: IWishIWereSarah on September 27, 2015, 03:42:18 pm
Fhuamdar (boksi) stalled :/

And it looks like I'm the only one who received this turn late. Like "only now" late...
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: Boksi on September 27, 2015, 05:16:08 pm
Oh whoops. That was entirely my fault. I had plenty of time to do it and everything, I just plain forgot to do it.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: E. Albright on October 01, 2015, 07:43:39 pm
*demonic crickets*
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: EnigmaticHat on October 01, 2015, 07:51:15 pm
Well that's... sinister.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: Frumple on October 01, 2015, 09:53:03 pm
Not for you, it isn't.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: E. Albright on October 02, 2015, 05:19:10 pm
Well, it was intended as nothing more than a commentary on how silent the thread had fallen...
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: Il Palazzo on October 02, 2015, 05:29:08 pm
And here I thought you found a 50% conjuration site or something.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: Frumple on October 02, 2015, 06:25:09 pm
Oh, talky bits. Nah, things seem to be going about as expected from my end of things. Not really much to say, yet. Must be more interesting over where there's actual rough force parity in the area :V

E: Though I will say this turn was significantly less ominous than I was expecting. Still pretty ominous (... does that throne event actually wear off, or...?), but much less than it could have been.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: Elfeater on October 02, 2015, 06:28:48 pm
The Turland Empire, is open to trade with other nations, with death gems set at a rate of 20 gold per gem.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: IWishIWereSarah on October 02, 2015, 06:37:07 pm
The Holy (Roman) Empire of the Sepulchral Throne is open to to trade, with death gems set at a rate of 18 gold per gem.
(and we also sell items :p )
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: Elfeater on October 02, 2015, 06:43:46 pm
15 gold per gem for orders of 25+, In addition to a nonaggression pact alongside any deals made.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: IWishIWereSarah on October 02, 2015, 06:47:25 pm
checks his stock

12.5 gold per gem for everyone except this one ! :D

Exchanging death gems for most other gems : 1 gem for 2 death gems, 1 slave for 1 gem.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: Elfeater on October 02, 2015, 06:56:16 pm
I will stick to my past offer. I will also trade gems for gems depending on the offers.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: E. Albright on October 02, 2015, 07:09:58 pm
(... does that throne event actually wear off, or...?)

It just lasts one or two turns. I think one.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: BFEL on October 03, 2015, 08:18:42 am
Oh, talky bits. Nah, things seem to be going about as expected from my end of things. Not really much to say, yet. Must be more interesting over where there's actual rough force parity in the area :V
So speaking of force parity, Isn't Fairig like, REALLY FUCKHUEG over there right now?
I mean, they have a buttload of land territory AND THE CAVES. (I have spies everywhere)

So are you guys all buddy buddy over in the south or what?
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: Frumple on October 03, 2015, 09:21:47 am
Not so much buddy buddy as one of us can't do shit about it and the other has had some troubles starting off, and apparently we're all trying to exploit other venues at the moment instead of screwing with each other. Probably because the latter would be fairly likely to end in ruin for whoever tries it as the third party takes advantage of the distraction :V
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: E. Albright on October 03, 2015, 10:39:11 am
BEFL, I suspect you have scouts everywhere, not spies, else you'd appreciate that Fairig is on par with a more modest northern nation at this point. I'd call mighty Fafnir a slumlord, but that would imply He was the liege of untold hordes of subjects, and that He certainly is not, what with all the deserts, 'n caves, 'n mountains, 'n swamps, 'n site-ravaged provinces. Fairig rules over what can most generously be referred to as the armpit of Valanis, and given its low position and cavernous inclusions, it might be better described by a different anatomical analogy...
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: Frumple on October 03, 2015, 01:38:27 pm
Yeah, BFEL's probably just got scouts, unless they seriously lucked out on a province. We do have spies down here (patrols have caught one or two already :V), but it's not BFEL's spies.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: Il Palazzo on October 03, 2015, 01:50:30 pm
Speaking of spies, scouts, and luck, I haven't found a single indie province with recruitable scouts. I had to resort to using hoburg horticulturists for the job.


On an unrelated note, I got to say, Boksi's insistence on taking it slow every single turn is getting on my nerves.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: BFEL on October 03, 2015, 01:58:40 pm
On an unrelated note, I got to say, Boksi's insistence on taking it slow every single turn is getting on my nerves.
Not gonna lie, been getting on mine too. Especially since it doesn't seem to be any RL issue getting in the way, but just that he keeps FORGETTING
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: Frumple on October 03, 2015, 02:06:54 pm
... I've actually been kinda' enjoying it, m'self. Makes things more chill, spreads out the periods between minor anxiety over whether this turn is the turn that everything goes to hell. Also means y'can comfortably only check in on the email once a day without worrying about losing out on much wiggle time. Is almost nice :3
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: Il Palazzo on October 03, 2015, 02:18:46 pm
You are way too chill for this world, Frumple.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: E. Albright on October 03, 2015, 02:41:47 pm
Fewer indy scouts is one of the more annoying aspects of EA games, I must agree.

Incidentally, and apropos very little, does 50g seem like a reasonable basecost for these things (http://larzm42.github.io/dom4inspector/?page=unit&panes=unit+1981@116@12&showids=1&showmodcmds=1&showmoddinginfo=1&showkeys=1&siteq=slave&unitq=dust)? They mostly impress me as being better versions of Burning Ones, mostly, and those are 40g...
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: Il Palazzo on October 03, 2015, 03:36:32 pm
Dust walkers are much better, imo. Respectable defence, with a potential to get real good in hot climate, and a lack of encumbrance means they can hold the line much longer than burning ones.
3 mapmove vs 1 is also a nice bonus.

(burning ones are 55 gp a piece, not 40)
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: E. Albright on October 03, 2015, 03:45:13 pm
Yes, their gcost is 55, but that's not their base cost. Although oops, their base cost is 45, not 40. In NG they don't have have berserk natively and have 20 base HP, which is why they got bumped down to 40, I suppose (it's been a while). Still, all that to one side, is 50 a reasonable basecost, or should it be higher?
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: Il Palazzo on October 03, 2015, 03:47:23 pm
Oops, sorry, I did not address the actual question. For the reasons stated, I'd say it should be more. In the 60-70 range, IMO.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: Boksi on October 03, 2015, 04:18:50 pm
Sorry, I've just gotten into the habit of doing all my turns at once. I'm in more than one game at the moment, so doing one turn per day per game is convenient for me.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: Il Palazzo on October 03, 2015, 04:21:36 pm
Sorry, I've just gotten into the habit of doing all my turns at once. I'm in more than one game at the moment, so doing one turn per day per game is convenient for me.
Since you appear to often get the last turn in, have you considered doing two turns in a row? - you do get the next turn in a few seconds after submitting the previous one. You're still in your allotted daily 'game' time, and it speeds up the game considerably.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: Boksi on October 03, 2015, 04:30:30 pm
Sorry, I've just gotten into the habit of doing all my turns at once. I'm in more than one game at the moment, so doing one turn per day per game is convenient for me.
Since you appear to often get the last turn in, have you considered doing two turns in a row? - you do get the next turn in a few seconds after submitting the previous one. You're still in your allotted daily 'game' time, and it speeds up the game considerably.
I know about the concept of double turns. I just don't want to go too fast and hit mid-game in this game when I'm still slogging through lategame in one game and having a chaotic midgame in another.

Though if it's really annoying the rest of you, I guess I could.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: IWishIWereSarah on October 03, 2015, 04:41:40 pm
I don't know about you guys, but as far as I'm concerned, the time of diplomacy has come. So I don't really mind being on a "standard" 1 turn per day.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: AlStar on October 03, 2015, 07:08:15 pm
My only issue is that if it's constantly the same person (I haven't been paying attention, but it sounds like it has been), then the game is being needlessly held up. If it was always a different person then it would mean that the game turns would be 'organically' taking however long.

So, as far as my 2c goes, I'd vote that if it's Boksi that is always at the tail-end, it would be awfully nice if he'd make an effort to either play a double turn, or at least take note of when it's down to just him, so as to get a turn in ASAP when we get to that point - real life allowing, of course.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: EnigmaticHat on October 04, 2015, 01:07:42 am
Y'all should play your turns, I'm interested in how the next one goes.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: IWishIWereSarah on October 04, 2015, 04:02:24 am
I'm interested in how the next one goes.
That's a thing that happens when you get attacked... ;)
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: Frumple on October 04, 2015, 09:24:05 am
Any particular reason turn 22 just got resent multiple times? Something need to be done on our end, or...?
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: IWishIWereSarah on October 04, 2015, 09:28:27 am
Someone has checked your nation in the "resend the turn" form, apparently.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: EnigmaticHat on October 04, 2015, 11:47:31 pm
BFEL: It is really obvious you are coming.  I am not scared.

Go away.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: IWishIWereSarah on October 05, 2015, 02:06:09 am
Why is your avatar shaking, then ? :p
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: EnigmaticHat on October 05, 2015, 02:13:41 am
anticipation
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: BFEL on October 05, 2015, 08:34:35 am
BFEL: It is really obvious you are coming.

Is my "O face" really that garish? :P
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: Il Palazzo on October 05, 2015, 01:41:33 pm
I'm really no longer fit to play this game. Gone are the days of ruthless expansion and painstakingly planned operations. All I want is to hunker down, turtle it up, build some stuff, and watch the graphs grow. I should switch to playing Civ or something.
Hmmm, I sure would love me some wonders to build in Dominions. I would build the shit out of Pyramids right now.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: EuchreJack on October 05, 2015, 02:29:09 pm
I'm really no longer fit to play this game. Gone are the days of ruthless expansion and painstakingly planned operations. All I want is to hunker down, turtle it up, build some stuff, and watch the graphs grow. I should switch to playing Civ or something.
Hmmm, I sure would love me some wonders to build in Dominions. I would build the shit out of Pyramids right now.

Obviously, the Supercombatants are the Wonders in the Dominions games.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: BFEL on October 05, 2015, 02:46:35 pm
I'm really no longer fit to play this game. Gone are the days of ruthless expansion and painstakingly planned operations. All I want is to hunker down, turtle it up, build some stuff, and watch the graphs grow. I should switch to playing Civ or something.
Hmmm, I sure would love me some wonders to build in Dominions. I would build the shit out of Pyramids right now.

Obviously, the Supercombatants are the Wonders in the Dominions games.
Yeah, pyramids are for people who annoy great toads
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: Frumple on October 05, 2015, 02:54:04 pm
There there, IP. I'm sure you would have been expanding ruthlessly if only you weren't shorter than half the map. Probably could have been anyway, if you'd bothered to step on the other half or so you're still taller than.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: Il Palazzo on October 06, 2015, 12:19:40 pm
Seeing how BFEL has just attacked EnigmaticHat, this would be probably the right moment to push the deadline, lest he stalls.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: E. Albright on October 06, 2015, 12:39:29 pm
Yeah, we're getting to the point where more of us are at war than not, so staling starts to matter. I'll push 12h.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: EnigmaticHat on October 06, 2015, 12:49:27 pm
Aw... I want to know how it turns out!

Probably better tho, lord knows I was awful about turning in turns my first two games.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: BFEL on October 06, 2015, 02:15:49 pm
Sorry about that, had some yardwork and such that HAD to get done (even though it mostly didn't) and totally forgot double turns are a thing last round.

Thanks for holding that up for me though guys, woulda sucked to start a war and immediately stall.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: EnigmaticHat on October 06, 2015, 02:26:38 pm
Ok... correct me if I'm wrong.

You can spend one gem in combat to increase your level in a path.  You can spend one gem per base path.  So, with a level 3 air mage, you can cast storm with two air gems, am I wrong?
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: BFEL on October 06, 2015, 02:31:26 pm
Ok... correct me if I'm wrong.

You can spend one gem in combat to increase your level in a path.  You can spend one gem per base path.  So, with a level 3 air mage, you can cast storm with two air gems, am I wrong?
I think so, and judging by the combat I just saw (which I feel kinda bad about) it works.

I feel bad because you obviously really worked on that and thought out the tactics but I Frieza'd you by being "born" with superpowered sacreds.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: EnigmaticHat on October 06, 2015, 02:34:04 pm
Did he cast storm in your version of the combat?  Because in mine he cast thunder strike.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: BFEL on October 06, 2015, 02:39:12 pm
SOMEONE cast storm in my version. You had like 20 mages so I didn't put in the effort to find out who did it.
It went something like thunderstrikex10>storm>stormpowerx20>assortedlightningspam>diehorriblytoOPsacreds.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: Il Palazzo on October 06, 2015, 02:51:33 pm
Jesus, BFEL, 40 giants...
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: BFEL on October 06, 2015, 03:37:13 pm
Jesus, BFEL, 40 giants...
I kinda figured he would use the doomstack to try and lift the siege, so I moved my 10 stack further in and sent MY doomstack there. Because why half ass these things when you don't need to?

BFEL: It is really obvious you are coming.  I am not scared.

Go away.
Scared yet?   8)
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: EnigmaticHat on October 06, 2015, 03:39:59 pm
Ok... correct me if I'm wrong.

You can spend one gem in combat to increase your level in a path.  You can spend one gem per base path.  So, with a level 3 air mage, you can cast storm with two air gems, am I wrong?
I think so, and judging by the combat I just saw (which I feel kinda bad about) it works.

I feel bad because you obviously really worked on that and thought out the tactics but I Frieza'd you by being "born" with superpowered sacreds.
Hahaha, I knew what I was getting in for when I signed up for this game :P  Only pity is we don't get to 1v1 bro because board game team-ups.  Maybe the next bay12 game should be a 2 team disciple game so we don't have to worry about all this diplomacy silliness.

For all the work I put into that, I didn't completely think it through.  I saw your army on your capital, but I didn't *quite* make the connection that you could mapmove two from your capital straight to the front.  Also the mod inspector says your StR mages produce a false army so I... thought your capital army was mostly fake.

I also could have inflicted more noticeable casualties if I had put my mages in a forward position.  Normally a bad idea but I've got giant's health on them and the lightning was much more inaccurate than I expected, probably because of storm.  I put my thunder strikers way back because of the 100 range but just because they CAN hit doesn't mean that they WILL hit.  There was about a 2/3 rate of accurate hits and almost all of the misses landed straight in the middle of my army; because of the huge health difference I'd say my mages mostly negated themselves.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: BFEL on October 06, 2015, 03:45:57 pm
Yeah I DO wanna try a disciples game after this.
Those look really fun. Would you wanna partner up EH? Or would you rather put me in my place? :P
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: Frumple on October 06, 2015, 03:56:36 pm
Jesus, BFEL, 40 giants...
... only 40? What kind of weak hindquarters tossup are you blighters up there having?
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: BFEL on October 06, 2015, 04:02:15 pm
The kind where I just took out the only substantial force Abeig had and Caesar and myself are systematically blocking all his production of new forces. That kind.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: Frumple on October 06, 2015, 04:05:05 pm
... just sayin', if 40 giants is a large amount up there, y'all are in for a treat when the south starts migrating north. You'll get to experience my nightmare, ahahahaha!
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: EnigmaticHat on October 06, 2015, 04:11:26 pm
The kind where I just took out the only substantial force Abeig had and Caesar and myself are systematically blocking all his production of new forces. That kind.

I think you may underestimate my ability to produce new forces :3

But yes, this isn't going great for me.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: BFEL on October 06, 2015, 05:15:26 pm
I think you may underestimate my ability to produce new forces :3
YAY! MOAR SQUISHY TO STOMP :P
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: Elfeater on October 06, 2015, 05:25:01 pm
And the offensive has begun, Turlands defenses are crumbling at every turn.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: Il Palazzo on October 06, 2015, 05:30:02 pm
And the offensive has begun, Turlands defenses are crumbling at every turn.
Nooo! Not the lovable hoburgs!
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: Frumple on October 06, 2015, 05:45:44 pm
... at this point, I'm starting to wonder if the two giants near me are having a secret war I'm not noticing, focusing on the western reaches, or if it's actually just that quiet over here. I mean, I'm still firmly uncomplaining, but...
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: Il Palazzo on October 06, 2015, 05:49:12 pm
My personal goal for this game is to become the last non-sacred-giants nation standing.
It's good to aim high.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: BFEL on October 07, 2015, 06:32:46 am
Wow, usually EH is one of the ones to throw their turn out real quick. HAVING TROUBLE DECIDING WHAT TO DO THERE BUDDY? :P
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: E. Albright on October 07, 2015, 12:19:48 pm
...actually, like as not that's a sign of diplomatic engagement.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: Il Palazzo on October 07, 2015, 12:36:51 pm
As someone at the mercy of my neighbouring giants, I feel I should mention that it's hard to plot devious plots when one's not online.

In other news, I'mma gonna claim a throne of misfortune this turn. What's the worst that could happen?
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: BFEL on October 07, 2015, 12:53:48 pm
In other news, I'mma gonna claim a throne of misfortune this turn. What's the worst that could happen?
Everyone decides to invade you? :P
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: IWishIWereSarah on October 07, 2015, 12:57:24 pm
Global misfortune +1, but nothing else, apparently. Disappointing :/
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: BFEL on October 07, 2015, 01:33:23 pm
...actually, like as not that's a sign of diplomatic engagement.
I imagine him just PMing everyone but me and Sarah going "HEEELLLLLPPPPP MEEEEEEEE" :P
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: Il Palazzo on October 07, 2015, 01:38:50 pm
Now, now, BFEL. There's nothing to gloat about here. Your tactical brilliance employed in this war can be summed up in two words: HULK SMASH!
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: BFEL on October 07, 2015, 01:44:07 pm
Hey now, while I admit that that is MOSTLY true, I do feel somewhat proud of baiting his doomstack into fighting 30 more giants then he was expecting to :P
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: E. Albright on October 07, 2015, 04:02:47 pm
Good point. Il Palazzo's characterization really misrepresented the true strategic calculations involved, which were more along the lines of: HULKS SMASH!!
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: BFEL on October 07, 2015, 04:26:07 pm
Well if YOU had 40 Hulks sitting around what are you gonna do? NOT tell them to smash? :P
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: EnigmaticHat on October 07, 2015, 05:04:38 pm
I have to congratulate your dying water elemental on giving orders even as he expired.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: IWishIWereSarah on October 07, 2015, 05:21:21 pm
I must admit the combat summary for this one seemed a bit weird :D
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: BFEL on October 07, 2015, 05:36:49 pm
Ouch, nice. That was...fuck. I was NOT expecting that, admittedly.

Well I'm gonna have to rethink THAT now, but even so, haven't lost a fight yet :P
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: Il Palazzo on October 07, 2015, 07:02:38 pm
Whaaaaaat haaapened?? Tell me, tell me!
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: EnigmaticHat on October 07, 2015, 07:11:49 pm
I killed his army's only leader with multiple seeking arrows, but he reverted to his water elemental form, albeit heavily afflicted and at low health.  So his army did not route when attacked by an unsupported indy commander :P Fortunately the water elemental form is temporary so he died at the end of the fight.

I'm curious, if no combat had occurred in that province, if the water elemental would have been cleared away at turn end.  Or survived until the next combat and then been cleared away.  Dominions is a suprisingly tightly coded game so I expect all temporary forms to be cleared at turn end but its still pretty unexpected that it lasted that long.

Also I think it was his prophet so take that and eat it and then starve to death because you're giants and even that loss would not be enough food to feed you even working under the premise that defeat is something that can be eaten.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: BFEL on October 07, 2015, 07:13:43 pm
Basically he opened with FOUR seeking arrows to my prophet (a sacred giant commander) which meant my prophet started the fight in his water elemental death form. So I'm down a prophet, but won the fight.

ALSO HES A NINJA
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: E. Albright on October 07, 2015, 07:16:49 pm
I'm curious, if no combat had occurred in that province, if the water elemental would have been cleared away at turn end.  Or survived until the next combat and then been cleared away.  Dominions is a suprisingly tightly coded game so I expect all temporary forms to be cleared at turn end but its still pretty unexpected that it lasted that long.

It'd stick around until combat occurred. Dominions is tightly coded but part of that is expediency, so there's not a lot of extraneous checks of the thousands of units every turn. The tempdyingform (or whatever the command is) will only be processed at the end of a battle.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: BFEL on October 07, 2015, 07:56:44 pm
The tempdyingform (or whatever the command is) will only be processed at the end of a battle.
INTERESTING
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: EnigmaticHat on October 07, 2015, 08:07:54 pm
Now I'm trying to think what benefit you could go out of your way to gain from that.

And failing.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: BFEL on October 07, 2015, 08:11:15 pm
Admittedly I'm ALSO failing because really the only thing I can think of is the exact thing that just happened :P

But hey, that was awesome enough that I'm now REALLY fuckin glad for those dying forms.

OH GOD HES TAKING HIS TIME AGAIN. THAT MEANS MORE TACTICAL GENIUSERY
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: EnigmaticHat on October 08, 2015, 01:36:26 pm
Oh dear Pantokrator.  I just watched that thug attack on you, you got so lucky.

Edit: Its literally just procrastination because I'm going to have to give more detailed orders.  I was far more clever in the expansion phase than I have been for the past in-game year.  I mean you're going to get tactical geniusery, but that procrastination isn't why :P

Double Edit: If anyone wants to cause significant harm to two nations, I am capable of directly converting air gems into my enemy's tears. 
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: Il Palazzo on October 08, 2015, 04:36:51 pm
This month we've found in Rizdos 'crystallised urine of a magical beast' as well as 'droppings of a magical beast'. Can other nations please keep their magical beasts on a leash, and clean after them like they're supposed to? Thanks.



In other news, we're looking for earth gems. Will trade air gems. Only serious offers. We're no longer looking for earth gems.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: BFEL on October 08, 2015, 06:38:07 pm
Ugh, this is just fucking depressing now.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: EnigmaticHat on October 08, 2015, 08:24:25 pm
Ugh, this is just fucking depressing now.
Abeig will make your sacred giant families feel the pain of all our fatherless wolf tribe children.

Not because the fathers are dead mind you.  But because they're trapped in Abeig.  Forever.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: AlStar on October 08, 2015, 08:26:59 pm
Come on Fairig - Challenge me! Fight, fight for the lands which I have stolen from you!
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: EuchreJack on October 09, 2015, 10:52:26 am
Anyone interested in a laid-back multiplayer game?

With my schedule, I can reliably play one turn every three days (although if I'm the last player, I love double turns, unless I'm dicking around with diplomacy), which is too slow for more hardcore players.  Depending on when it started, I could probably do the first ten turns faster (the first three or four usually can be done in the same weekend, I've noticed from other multiplayer games).
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: BFEL on October 09, 2015, 02:01:58 pm
Ugh, this is just fucking depressing now.
Abeig will make your sacred giant families feel the pain of all our fatherless wolf tribe children.

Not because the fathers are dead mind you.  But because they're trapped in Abeig.  Forever.
OK now I'm REALLY curious as to what the hell that means.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: Frumple on October 09, 2015, 02:08:47 pm
Saying they're going to arrow the big papa (commander) giants 'cause they've got all of abeig's male population trapped in the capital, presumably under siege.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: EnigmaticHat on October 09, 2015, 03:24:07 pm
I was a... pun?...  on "never go home".

My guys are never going home cause they're dead, his are never going home because they don't have a commander to TELL them to go home.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: BFEL on October 09, 2015, 03:58:31 pm
OH ok so the first part was referring to your guys and the "trapped in Abeig" part was referring to my guys.

I was confused and wondering why all your not-dead fathers were being forcibly held from their children :P
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: Il Palazzo on October 09, 2015, 06:07:10 pm
Bloody hell, the procrastinators multiply!
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: EnigmaticHat on October 09, 2015, 08:48:05 pm
Can I have a short extension?
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: E. Albright on October 09, 2015, 09:11:22 pm
Pushed 12h.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: AlStar on October 10, 2015, 02:07:09 am
... and that's why you should have never actually decided to attack me - not underground, where my 100% darkvision comes into play. Because I'll take a fight where I kill your prophet and kill 1520 more gold worth of troops than I lose any day.

My only regret is that I wasted a ton of air gems - I don't think my air elementals actually got a hit in.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: Il Palazzo on October 10, 2015, 05:34:18 am
-'You have received earth gems from <undisclosed>'

-'A thief has stolen your earth gems'

Goddamnit, throne of misfortune!
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: BFEL on October 10, 2015, 07:11:02 am
-'You have received earth gems from <undisclosed>'

-'A thief has stolen your earth gems'

Goddamnit, throne of misfortune!
Palazzo, I'm pretty sure everyone knows you got your gems from Abeig. You trading off a bunch of air gems the same turn EH offers to trade for them is pretty telling.
I'm not mad that you're trading with them personally, I'm more mad that you're trying to hide it. Also that you aren't attacking them, but mostly the hiding.

Also, that's what you get for trading with Abeig :P
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: Il Palazzo on October 10, 2015, 07:12:53 am
Don't be mad at us! We are weak and weasely, and hiding is the only skill we've got!
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: BFEL on October 10, 2015, 07:29:28 am
Funny how the "weak and weasely" nation has almost twice the territory I do, and DEFINITELY has twice the territory Caesar does.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: Il Palazzo on October 10, 2015, 07:39:30 am
That's only thanks to your gracious decision not to kill us! We are eternally grateful for our continued existence as a sick man of Valanis.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: EnigmaticHat on October 10, 2015, 08:06:30 am
I'm pretty sure he's talking about me.

And I'm not falling for that, you both have significant amounts of underwater territory.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: BFEL on October 10, 2015, 08:59:03 am
I'm pretty sure he's talking about me.

And I'm not falling for that, you both have significant amounts of underwater territory.
No I was specifically pointing out that Rizdos takes up like, the ENTIRE east of the continent. He MIGHT have more territory then you did before the war started.

And *I* have significant underwater territory. Caesar has about half the UW provinces I do. Though they have quite a few more land provinces then me, so it evens out mostly.

Seriously, its kinda sad and hilarious that the two Sacred Giant nations of the north both have less territory then the two "regular" nations.

Also did you scout like, AT ALL? I have a pretty good idea of what EVERYONE'S territory looks like. And that's AFTER I lost my flying scout.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: Il Palazzo on October 10, 2015, 09:20:15 am
I did not have more territory than Abeig! I counted.
You're just being mean now.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: E. Albright on October 10, 2015, 10:55:27 am
Sorry of a showing as it was for Giblets, that actually went better than expected and more or less achieved its aims, to include recon in force.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: Elfeater on October 10, 2015, 01:05:23 pm
Well my entire army is gone. I have no forces to stop the formorians, does any one object to me going AI? I would fight it out but 300 some guys died to kill 3 formorians.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: IWishIWereSarah on October 10, 2015, 02:58:31 pm
could I get a 3 hours extension, please ?
Couldn't play today :/
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: Il Palazzo on October 10, 2015, 03:05:23 pm
Well my entire army is gone. I have no forces to stop the formorians, does any one object to me going AI?
It was inevitable.
Quote
I would fight it out but 300 some guys died to kill 3 formorians.
It is terrifying.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: BFEL on October 10, 2015, 04:30:38 pm
Well my entire army is gone. I have no forces to stop the formorians, does any one object to me going AI? I would fight it out but 300 some guys died to kill 3 formorians.
Have you considered accepting Seeking Arrow as your lord and savior? :P
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: EnigmaticHat on October 10, 2015, 04:56:14 pm
Its not the end all be all.

Lord help you if I had my mummy snakes.  That's a strategy to rely on.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: BFEL on October 10, 2015, 04:59:35 pm
MUMMY SNAKES?

This I have to see.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: E. Albright on October 10, 2015, 07:40:24 pm
could I get a 3 hours extension, please ?
Couldn't play today :/

Sorry, I don't do 3h extensions. Pushed 12h.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: Boksi on October 10, 2015, 11:09:29 pm
How convenient. I won't have to wake up early tomorrow to do my turn, then :P

Why yes, I am delaying my turn simply because you gave me the opportunity. If you have any complaints to lodge, please send them to my prophet. He is, after all, a huge dick.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: EnigmaticHat on October 11, 2015, 02:16:43 am
Well, opening the turn file is going to be terrifying for at least one person.  I have guaranteed that.

Hopefully it won't just be me.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: Elfeater on October 11, 2015, 02:24:35 pm
One moment, weve got guests over, I will get my turn up after they are gone.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: Il Palazzo on October 11, 2015, 04:52:24 pm
Cheers, brave, poor Turlanders. You were the designated punching bag of this game from the get go.

In other news, eat this, you nasty Bogus you. To your credit, fighting you provided at least some excuse to justify paying my army their wages.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: EnigmaticHat on October 12, 2015, 06:23:50 pm
So ah, how about that nor'easter?
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: AlStar on October 12, 2015, 07:18:02 pm
Anyone know if blood vengeance (specifically, the always-on bless that a prophet or shroud-wearing commander has) bounces seeking arrow damage back at the casting mage? I'm hoping it does, because it would serve them right.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: EnigmaticHat on October 12, 2015, 07:56:22 pm
I don't know, but that sounds like the sort of thing that would happen in Dominions.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: E. Albright on October 12, 2015, 07:57:10 pm
Oh no, my MR 19/27HP Tier-3 mages hadn't considered the possibility that if they failed an MR check against your prophet they could get hurt.

Oh, wait they did. And they can't unless they do it in person. But even if it was possible, I can't imagine why they'd be even vaguely worried given the odds against them being hurt, let alone injured or killed.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: Elfeater on October 12, 2015, 09:55:52 pm
While we were slaughtered this time, I would be up for our next iteration of this, maybe MA next time?
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: BFEL on October 12, 2015, 10:14:50 pm
While we were slaughtered this time, I would be up for our next iteration of this, maybe MA next time?
Well we agreed earlier that EA gives more racial variety, that's why we chose it (though said "variety" ended up backfiring quite a bit in this one :P)

Also, am I the only one who wants the next game to be a disciples game?
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: E. Albright on October 12, 2015, 11:27:41 pm
EucreJack expressed interest in such as well.

...there's nothing stopping you from starting up a thread to get such a game rolling, ya know...
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: EnigmaticHat on October 12, 2015, 11:29:46 pm
Hmmm... so would random nations be assigned/drafted by team or by player?
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: E. Albright on October 12, 2015, 11:42:23 pm
If you're looking to do another NG thing, there should be another release w/in the week-ish. Yes, I know, I said the same thing a month ago, but I've finished most of my 0.6.8 milestones, and am almost done with my Dust Walker digression, so it might actually happen soon! :P

(It'd be Caelian themes, bronze weapons and armor for "standard" nations, bronze/iron themes for Fomorians, and Dust Walkers/corresponding humans as a new nation type - plus a modest heap of engine changes improving PD generation and tweaking leader generation.)
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: BFEL on October 13, 2015, 07:41:22 am
EucreJack expressed interest in such as well.

...there's nothing stopping you from starting up a thread to get such a game rolling, ya know...
I'm still invested in this one, and want to finish it before starting anything new.

Also, next month Fallout 4 is going to take all my freetime for the foreseeable future. I'll finish this if its still going by then, but I don't want to have to finish something ELSE on top of it.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: Il Palazzo on October 13, 2015, 09:50:59 am
Come on, Boksi. I need my 5 minute fix of checking events and idly staring at graphs.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: AlStar on October 13, 2015, 06:29:55 pm
In case anyone's curious, cavemen champions make excellent seeking arrow sponges.

Also, man do caves ever suck for supplies. I need to train my men on the time-honored pastime of mushroom picking or something.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: Il Palazzo on October 13, 2015, 06:48:01 pm
In completely unrelated news, Rizdos might consider selling a summer sword for an appropriately overpriced amount of gems! We may also be contracted to forge some wineskins or endless cauldrons of broth.
Just sayin', yo.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: EuchreJack on October 13, 2015, 07:23:59 pm
EuchreJack expressed interest in such as well.

...there's nothing stopping you from starting up a thread to get such a game rolling, ya know...

Abject fear of any and all responsibility regarding this game is certainly some thing...
But yeah, still interested.  Figure you guys need about...three more players to concede defeat prior to a new game starting up.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: BFEL on October 14, 2015, 05:38:34 am
Come on, Boksi. I need my 5 minute fix of checking events and idly staring at graphs.
And once again no double turn from him  >:(
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: AlStar on October 14, 2015, 08:05:20 pm
There are people with level 7 research already? Damn, I'm feeling like the slow kid in class now.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: BFEL on October 14, 2015, 08:31:06 pm
There are people with level 7 research already? Damn, I'm feeling like the slow kid in class now.
You're not the only one. I'm struggling to get level 5 in the path I've been FOCUSING almost exclusively on.

It doesn't help that I need a fort, lab, AND temple to actually recruit any mages outside my capital.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: E. Albright on October 14, 2015, 09:04:48 pm
We're moving into our third winter. "Lategame" should be starting very soon if not already.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: BFEL on October 14, 2015, 09:07:19 pm
We're moving into our third winter. "Lategame" should be starting very soon if not already.
And my Pretender still hasn't shown up.

I guess its not her time of the monthdecade yet.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: EnigmaticHat on October 14, 2015, 09:43:58 pm
There are people with level 7 research already? Damn, I'm feeling like the slow kid in class now.
You're not the only one. I'm struggling to get level 5 in the path I've been FOCUSING almost exclusively on.

It doesn't help that I need a fort, lab, AND temple to actually recruit any mages outside my capital.
Oh that's funny, I'm working on my second level 7.

And still you're taking my territory aren't 2v1s fun :/
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: BFEL on October 14, 2015, 10:15:54 pm
And still you're taking my territory aren't 2v1s fun :/
*meanwhile in Caesar*
"We took the fortress of Troban!"
"FINALLY! We lost half our territory in this war"

:P
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: Il Palazzo on October 15, 2015, 05:42:08 pm
Praise be Santa Christ! He has awoken and is bearing gifts for the meek!
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: BFEL on October 16, 2015, 08:04:52 pm
Praise be Santa Christ! He has awoken and is bearing gifts for the meek!
How sad that his first gift was national suicide
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: EnigmaticHat on October 16, 2015, 08:47:53 pm
Sorry, I can't hear you over the 1500 gold of Wave Exemplars I just killed.

Time to see how you fight when the odds aren't overwhelming in your favor.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: BFEL on October 16, 2015, 11:09:18 pm
Do you mean to imply the odds AREN'T overwhelmingly in my favor? Because they certainly appear to be.
Setbacks have happened, certainly, but nothing particularly crushing.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: Il Palazzo on October 17, 2015, 05:10:57 am
We will not be bullied by the likes of you any more!
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: BFEL on October 17, 2015, 06:55:00 am
We will not be bullied by the likes of you any more!
I wasn't bullying you! What could possibly lead you to think that?
You were literally cowering for NO REASON.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: Il Palazzo on October 17, 2015, 07:05:13 am
See, now you're calling me irrational! You're a big bully.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: Frumple on October 17, 2015, 07:41:24 am
I wasn't bullying you! What could possibly lead you to think that?
The towering girth of your sacreds, and their presence anywhere on the same planet. That's what :V
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: BFEL on October 17, 2015, 01:55:15 pm
Hey just because you feel INSECURE, doesn't give you the right to attack those of us who are gifted with large appendages.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: EnigmaticHat on October 17, 2015, 02:04:04 pm
Sorry I cut your big appendages off from the main body.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: AlStar on October 18, 2015, 06:52:13 pm
I'm impressed by the number of fort-turns and (to a lesser extent) gold that stealth raid cost to put together - surely you must have better things to do than train up scouts and tiny commanders?
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: E. Albright on October 18, 2015, 07:28:55 pm
At the time, no, I didn't, and that "tiny commander", as you so hurtfully put it, was the leader of my starting army.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: BFEL on October 18, 2015, 08:18:56 pm
And now Horoken has joined in on the fun as well!

Anyone ELSE wanna have a go? Tickets to the roflstomp are at a premium!
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: EnigmaticHat on October 18, 2015, 10:50:19 pm
Hypocritical much?  :P
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: BFEL on October 18, 2015, 11:05:28 pm
Hypocritical much?  :P
How so?
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: EnigmaticHat on October 18, 2015, 11:13:21 pm
You ganged up on me, 2 on 1.  That's worse than 3 on 2.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: BFEL on October 19, 2015, 12:07:19 am
Its not 3 on 2, its 3 on 1, because Caesar is on the other side of the world from my 2 new enemies, and I'm pretty sure I'm carrying that alliance regardless
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: EnigmaticHat on October 19, 2015, 12:23:01 am
Really?  So how about Caesar goes home and I focus entirely on you?

Someone needs to learn to be more appreciative :P

Edit: Going to need a 12h extension
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: Il Palazzo on October 19, 2015, 05:05:52 am
Its not 3 on 2, its 3 on 1, because Caesar is on the other side of the world from my 2 new enemies, and I'm pretty sure I'm carrying that alliance regardless
You do have to admit that you were quite alright with the idea of a 3 on 1 roflstomp when the '1' was meant to be Abeig.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: BFEL on October 19, 2015, 06:07:21 am
Its not 3 on 2, its 3 on 1, because Caesar is on the other side of the world from my 2 new enemies, and I'm pretty sure I'm carrying that alliance regardless
You do have to admit that you were quite alright with the idea of a 3 on 1 roflstomp when the '1' was meant to be Abeig.
True enough I suppose, though to be honest I was fully expecting you to ally with them instead from the start. I thought I would have time to deal with you on my own terms, but you got the jump on me, so congrats on that.

I'm more confused about Horoken getting involved honestly. I mean, I was a good neighbor to them (well, mostly a ignore-y neighbor, but there was some good in there too!) and you're distracted throwing everything at my capital, so I guess its just go for the guy who's being overwhelmed then? I mean I GET IT, but at the same time you have much better real estate/targets for him then I do. All I border him with is crappy oceans.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: Frumple on October 19, 2015, 08:56:15 am
... mostly a case of oversaturated fish markets and an offer I couldn't refuse. Plus I've been getting incredibly antsy these last few turns. If it makes you feel any better, yours isn't the only province I took :V
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: E. Albright on October 19, 2015, 12:00:39 pm
Non-disciple Dominions is winner-take-all, so there's very little incentive to refrain from dogpiling anyone who gets significantly stronger than the pack. Indeed, to the contrary, as you tend to regret not having acted when you still could do something if you don't. There's a delicate diplomatic balance whereby you continue to maintain parity with everyone around you, at least superficially, while still continually developing faster than them. The only alternative is either to have such overwhelming power that no one can do anything about it, or hope for/foster enough discord among the others that they can't gang up on you - because while many players have ridiculous notions about it being "dishonorable" to "resort to diplomacy" to "beat players better than you" (hence the reasonable popularity of "no diplomacy" games), if you're not accounting for diplomacy, you're not playing better than them, and not ganging up on someone taking a clear lead is as bad play as not attacking a weakened or slow-developing neighbor, which is something the "honorable" crowd has absolutely no scruples whatsoever about doing.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: EuchreJack on October 19, 2015, 12:30:03 pm
Non-disciple Dominions is winner-take-all, so there's very little incentive to refrain from dogpiling anyone who gets significantly stronger than the pack.
And the same holds true for someone that is significantly weaker than the pack.  If your neighbor, whom you love and adore, is going to lose anyways, you can't ignore his or her beautiful provinces and other resources.  Usually, diplomacy governs: If a player knows they are about to lose, they usually negotiate so their friends prosper and enemies suffer.  Gifts of all remaining gems/gold prior to going AI are quite common. 
And who says that small elite sacred remnant army has to protect provinces that border friends instead of enemies?  I've even received detailed summaries of Point Defense by Province from friends that were in a no-win situation. 

Fair? Sure! it rewards the friendly and punishes the aggressors.  It is the counterpoint to the "Screw 'em all, this a competitive game" philosophy that could so easily be applied.  And it keeps thing civil, especially since most of it isn't reported.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: Il Palazzo on October 19, 2015, 12:34:03 pm
I'm with Euchre on this. The psychology of alliances in dominions is a complex matter, with many more factors than just cold calculation.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: E. Albright on October 19, 2015, 12:54:54 pm
Oh, I completely agree, and if my prior post sounds at all to the contrary, allow me to correct that misapprehension.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: BFEL on October 19, 2015, 04:49:51 pm
I find it amusing that for all this talk of the benefits of friendship, what I'm taking out of this game is "be more aggressive"

Somewhere in the first few pages of discussion for this someone said something to the effect of "its common courtesy to not invade your neighbors for a bunch of turns" and I took that as some secret rule I didn't know about, so I was going after some silly grand strategy involving ocean provinces instead of taking the land I should have been, all the while waiting for some signal that it was cool to go to war now. Caesar provided that and dragged me into a war I had little overall interest in (good job there :P) while I was following research paths I didn't really have to resources to use correctly (though this is partly just having a weird path balance on my mages because Nationgen)

So yeah, that's where my head was at for this game. But I'm still gonna win just to spite you bastards :P
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: E. Albright on October 19, 2015, 05:10:55 pm
Edit: Going to need a 12h extension

Pushed 12h.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: AlStar on October 19, 2015, 06:26:54 pm
I find it amusing that for all this talk of the benefits of friendship, what I'm taking out of this game is "be more aggressive"

Somewhere in the first few pages of discussion for this someone said something to the effect of "its common courtesy to not invade your neighbors for a bunch of turns" and I took that as some secret rule I didn't know about, so I was going after some silly grand strategy involving ocean provinces instead of taking the land I should have been, all the while waiting for some signal that it was cool to go to war now. Caesar provided that and dragged me into a war I had little overall interest in (good job there :P) while I was following research paths I didn't really have to resources to use correctly (though this is partly just having a weird path balance on my mages because Nationgen)

So yeah, that's where my head was at for this game. But I'm still gonna win just to spite you bastards :P
I'd say that it's less "don't invade your neighbors for a bunch of turns" and more "if there's available indy provinces around, you're almost always better off going after them first."

The problem with going after your neighbors early is that it often ends with both nations much smaller and weaker then they would be otherwise - even if the winner manages to take over the capital of the loser, that's still multiple turns worth of sieging at a point in time where you want to be grabbing at least one province every turn.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: Frumple on October 19, 2015, 07:14:18 pm
... 'course, that's less of a problem for some nations. Most of our giant friends could have been sieging just fine and not slowing down meaningfully, what with being able to take almost any indie province (and, let's be honest here, most of the non-indie ones, too) with 1-3 sacreds and a(n indie) priest. They could have dumped on any of the non-giant nations in the early game and not really slowed down to any substantial degree.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: AlStar on October 19, 2015, 07:42:26 pm
Perhaps - I'll definitely admit that I've thought that NationGen's Fomorian giant sacred generation probably needs some tweaking - they're such a powerful chassis already that giving them things like magic weapons or large berserk values just makes them insane.

IMO, they need either a nerf on what they can get, or a major cost increase should they happen to generate with such things.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: E. Albright on October 19, 2015, 10:15:52 pm
Do you have any specific suggestions? NG tries to maintain a rough semblance of balance, but by its random nature it's never tested thoroughly, and we don't get feedback as much as would be good - especially balance feedback, since lots of people play it for "ZOMG crazy imba!".

It would be trivial to e.g. add size locks to the existing Berserk filters and make more expensive versions that only apply to large units, f'r'instance.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: Frumple on October 19, 2015, 11:02:04 pm
[initialize near-midnight babbling mode]*scratches head* It's not really the 'zerk that does it, though, is it? When I was doing some testing on giant performance, iirc I was using one of the non-zerk variants (the water elemental ones, I think) and they were still more or less soloing indies with the obvious N9E4. Seems to more or less just be the HP base (plus N9), and cost wise you're more or less in line with vanilla formorian giants. All that really happened in this case is that, well. Giant nations ended up being ~half the players, instead of, y'know, at most two, with the obvious effects (No one with a major bless didn't have N9, right?). The giant nations are usually held more in check with more meta balance (being alone, having high cost other commanders, etc.) and/or dominion restrictions (needing cold to really work well).

... not that tacking some more cost on to the things would be entirely amiss, mind. If the nation's not going to be particularly balanced in other ways around the critters, y'might as well try to put the balancing aspect on the critter itself. It's not like doubling or tripling the cost of those things would slow the giant nations down much, if any.

Basically, m'not really sure the giants are particularly out of line, on their own. They're fairly close to vanilla, as is. Except the commanders, anyway. The commander versions are hella cheap for what they are (sacred mid-to-high tier SC chassis for <200g yes thankyou I'll be spamming this like Sceleria spams consuls now), especially Caesar's -- that recruit anywhere on those guys is just obscene for 155g. I'd at least think about putting StR on the buggers.

M'just not really sure what you'd do, basically. The whole thing about sacred giant nations is that they take a N9<whatever> bless and then send out their troops to solo indies. Even if you literally restricted recruitment to 1/turn they'd still largely be able to do what they're doing here (or, well, could have been doing, anyway). Price has to get ludicrous if you're actually going to use that alone to bring in line something that is an expansion army in and of itself.

... still. Yeah, for little things -- StR those giant commanders, unilaterally. You guys don't seem to be using them very much, but I can go ahead and tell you lot if I had 'em you would all have kitted giant commanders ransacking your everything right now, and it would have started a long time ago. The lack of paths really isn't enough to justify that cost for that chassis. Maybe bump cost on the troop varieties somewhat... they're all fairly notably better somehow or another with barely any increase in cost compared to vanilla giants. Possibly consider letting negative traits of some sort (eats population, unrest, heretic, etc.) offset the gold cost, and make it likely for them to show up -- maybe for just straight up anything sacred and with HP >30 (or 10 :P). Problem really isn't exactly the giants on their own, though, it's the giants with N9(E4) being a thing that is. Ends up meaning they can be fielded with basically no risk for quite a long time, which drastically skews their gold efficiency.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: EnigmaticHat on October 19, 2015, 11:19:29 pm
I think the problem is that Nationgen's logic is: sacred = extra shit + sacred tag.  This is fine for humans, or hoburgs, or most races for that matter.  What's a few humans with extra stats going to do?  But the problem is that the giant races use a different, more powerful chassis for sacreds then for the main race.  They get TWO passes of extra stats.  And the chassis was honestly overpowered to begin with.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: Il Palazzo on October 20, 2015, 04:37:34 pm
I might have just trolled a sharknado with actual sharks.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: BFEL on October 21, 2015, 01:40:53 pm
I might have just trolled a sharknado with actual sharks.
Indeed you did.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: E. Albright on October 21, 2015, 07:47:05 pm
PSA to the Mercenary Captains of Valanis:

If, at some time in the future, you are offered a lucrative contract by the nation of Horoken, do not accept it. It does not matter how much they offer; it does not matter if they inform you that it's to be a short, push-over campaign capturing some small and insignificant province (for example Ivenmoor, the Graveyard of Sellswords). It does not matter if they ply you with gems or ensorcelled relics, nor titles, nor holdings. No good shall come of it, and you will not live to regret your error.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: EnigmaticHat on October 21, 2015, 07:49:20 pm
I might have just trolled a sharknado with actual sharks.
Ok I'll bite, what happened?
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: Frumple on October 21, 2015, 08:17:37 pm
I might have just trolled a sharknado with actual sharks.
Ok I'll bite, what happened?
Presumably a bundle of shark tribe tritons got eaten by sharks.

Also yes. One day, a mercenary group will survive their contract with me. That day was not yesterday. I don't think I've hired one with the intent to actually accomplish anything with it since around turn ten or something. M'just spending some of my gold to kill them off for giggles. That last one was hilariously cheap, though. Bought it for about what I spend on two normal infantry units.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: EnigmaticHat on October 21, 2015, 09:57:38 pm
Finally a fight against something I can actually kill.  Spent like a half hour scripting that and missed the key detail of issuing orders to an indy commander.  Left 2/3rds of my troops behind.

Ah well, worked out.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: IWishIWereSarah on October 22, 2015, 01:28:01 am
Ah well, worked out.
Talking about Omia ?
Well, I don't see a reason to lose a fight with mass fog, and 15+ thunder casters.
Anyway, mainly lost longdead horsemen, so that's alright.

Also, Deathwing is nomad apparently, now :/
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: EnigmaticHat on October 22, 2015, 02:07:32 am
Ah well, worked out.
Talking about Omia ?
Well, I don't see a reason to lose a fight with mass fog, and 15+ thunder casters.
That's fair.  I don't see a reason to win a fight with no magic and no mages.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: Il Palazzo on October 22, 2015, 05:55:16 am
I might have just trolled a sharknado with actual sharks.
Ok I'll bite, what happened?
I tried to find a lame pun for a battle involving sea trolls, shark tribe tritons and sharks.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: EnigmaticHat on October 22, 2015, 01:06:24 pm
Its ok I already made the lame pun.

Edit: Also, gonna need a 12h extension (sorry, life got busy recently)

Double edit:  Well I mean I need like a 3h but you don't do those.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: Frumple on October 23, 2015, 10:18:32 am
And the second stale of the game goes to... bfel? Huh.

E: Also, I didn't even notice elf went AI. Shows how much I've been paying attention :-\
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: Il Palazzo on October 23, 2015, 10:27:17 am
Going from being the king of the world to having no options left in a span of a few turns can be disheartening, I suppose.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: BFEL on October 23, 2015, 04:30:09 pm
Wait what? I staled?! I coulda sworn I played the turn and had time for the next...fuck.
Did my capital fall? WHAT HAPPENED?

Ok, guess my capital DID fall unfortunately. Was it at least a good fight or was it over instantly?
Anyway, hanging on by a thread now, so Hobnia, please use the enclosed gems and 1 gold to crush the ballsacks of Abeig and Rizdos for me would you?
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: EnigmaticHat on October 23, 2015, 04:53:50 pm
I hate that feeling.  I've sent turns right on the line and then had it process the turn before receiving mine :/

Edit: Also, there was a length of time where I didn't realize llamaserver was one time zone off from where I live.  There was much gnashing of teeth.

Double Edit: And I managed to have this turn's email saved as a draft instead of sending right when I was about to go to sleep, geez.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: AlStar on October 23, 2015, 05:32:24 pm
Huh - would you believe that the flight of troops that attacked Fairig went there by mistake? They were supposed to meet up with the forces at Isurian or Dommen. Well, luckily they didn't end up hitting the 50 giants my scout saw last turn.

By the way, in case anyone wants to see a "salt the earth" campaign carried out well and with vigor, look to Fairig - beyond spreading disease in his own provinces as my army has advanced, this turn, as my army reached his capital, we find a province with 500 unrest and only 6,500 population remaining.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: BFEL on October 23, 2015, 06:05:29 pm
Wow.

But yeah, AlStar you ready for a windfall from your uncle Dheathdaich?

Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: Frumple on October 23, 2015, 06:20:17 pm
You should give it to boksi instead, methinks. Poor giants haven't caught a break in a while...
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: Il Palazzo on October 23, 2015, 06:21:50 pm
What's with the giants in this game? Are they all going extinct?
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: BFEL on October 23, 2015, 06:35:05 pm
You should give it to boksi instead, methinks. Poor giants haven't caught a break in a while...
I'm giving it to AlStar because he's the one most likely to curbstomp Rizdos/Abeig with it IMO
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: E. Albright on October 23, 2015, 06:37:42 pm
What's with the giants in this game? Are they all going extinct?

Giant nations are usually strong early but unless they get a strong economic base very quickly, they tend to wither - and indeed, at that point their ridiculously expensive troops are more of a curse than a blessing. Fairig, for a number of reasons I don't feel like publicly discussing just yet, did not get a strong economic base, so in their case, the onslaught of several hordes of N9B9 birds wasn't something they had the giantpower or know-how to counter. Hence, the salty earth - although in our defense, we only ruined a couple of our provinces; the rest came pre-ruined.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: EnigmaticHat on October 24, 2015, 09:34:17 pm
Wow Caesar, if only you had at least responded to that peace offer...
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: AlStar on October 27, 2015, 06:55:14 am
Well, that wasn't a bad fight, overall.

Wish I'd managed to kill more of those damn stellar cascades casters (and/or your prophet) when you broke, but I'll take the win.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: Frumple on October 27, 2015, 10:33:19 am
I was pretty happy with it, yeah :P
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: E. Albright on October 27, 2015, 12:06:40 pm
RIP, Dagan. Next month plus one: RIP Sogg?

Also, can you really be happy with how that fight turned out, Frumple, given that a mercenary captain survived it, even if his ghouls didn't?
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: Frumple on October 27, 2015, 12:29:34 pm
Naah, that's fine. Good, even, 'cause it means I can potentially get a shot at them later. I didn't hold the contract, and while a mercenary captain dying under someone else's pay is good, it's not exactly what I'm after. It only counts for me if they die on my payroll :3
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: BFEL on October 27, 2015, 02:28:48 pm
LOL Frumple you mercacidal bastard.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: Il Palazzo on October 28, 2015, 11:28:14 am
Thanks for playing, BFEL.
I was genuinely scared of your sacreds for a time. Some luck with thrones and sites, as well as ample time (provided by your war with Abeig) to prepare a correct strategy helped me in nullifying your advantages.
You had also made some basic mistakes that just don't fly in MP games, and which you're probably all too aware of by now.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: EnigmaticHat on October 28, 2015, 12:00:32 pm
I also played a sacred heavy nation, and got screwed by commander death my first MP game.  Just in a different way.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: BFEL on October 28, 2015, 06:12:03 pm
Yeah, I DEFINATELY fucked up pretty much all the things you can fuck up.

Since its over for me, wanna hear my original GLORIOUS STRATEGY?
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: Il Palazzo on October 28, 2015, 06:12:53 pm
Was it 'to chew gum and kick arse'?
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: BFEL on October 28, 2015, 06:18:58 pm
No it was a clusterfuck involving dropping into the ocean IMMEDIATELY, then grinding up to Perpetual Storm and fucking everyone else's income while I slid by on the immune oceans.
As for combat magic, I pretty much wanted to do exactly what Abeig does, communioned zapspam.
And when I secured the northern continent, the plan was to put nice big communions on all the crossings with Lifelong Protection on ERRYBODY.
It would have been IMPossible to cross into my territory, or at least IMProbable.
Meanwhile my giants could wreck shit up across the pond.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: E. Albright on October 28, 2015, 06:51:47 pm
...that's the kind of highly ambitious plan that couldn't hope to survive first contact with the enemy. Way too many moving parts.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: EnigmaticHat on October 28, 2015, 07:00:40 pm
I agree with the going underwater part.  You have crazy giants, you have a dual bless, you have mages that are awkward above water but quite effective below.  You shouldn't have let anyone except you hold any ocean provinces.  BUT, the point of that isn't so that people can't hurt you; remember, your nation lives and dies on its cap.  Rather its so you can cast Voice of Tiamat everywhere and have an unassailable source of loads of gold and gems.

You should have had a lot more land provinces; part of that is you should have gone after them first, part of that is inexperience and not understanding how good your giants are for expansion.  You also needed at least one or two fort/lab/temple complexes, as I'm sure you found out when you weren't putting out enough research.

If you have that and put out a decent amount of mages, communions seem like a good way to bring yourself into the lategame without being totally helpless.  That being said, the fact that you were going evo just makes your B9 bless look like EVEN MORE of a waste.  Which by the way it was.  A huge one.  You should have gone for something like N9E4 imprisoned Earth Mother, with money scales and 2-3 heat/cold because they don't effect UW provinces very much.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: BFEL on October 28, 2015, 07:20:46 pm
...that's the kind of highly ambitious plan that couldn't hope to survive first contact with the enemy. Way too many moving parts.
Yeah, I figured that out in mid game. And then I went into the war against Abeig and made my SECOND biggest failure.

The point of going underwater was that Perpetual Storm only fucks the income of aboveground provinces.

The reason I didn't have more land provinces wasn't that I didn't know my giants were good. I didn't know we were allowed to attack each other. I literally was under the impression there was a early game ceasefire going on.

Yeah, I know. And I probably just shouldn't go evo at all. Ever. Because I don't know how to use it. At all.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: EnigmaticHat on October 28, 2015, 07:23:31 pm
Well, yeah, but you should have gone for more indy provinces at least.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: BFEL on October 28, 2015, 07:45:01 pm
Well, yeah, but you should have gone for more indy provinces at least.

Not everyone was spawned neighboring the worlds most focused underachiever :P

I'm talking about Caesar. Seriously, I KNOW I fucked up, but I have no idea what the hell Sarah was doing.
I mean she ALSO HAS SACRED GIANTS. But apparently she doesn't use them. At all.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: EnigmaticHat on October 28, 2015, 07:48:06 pm
She want after a much more restrained bless than you, I believe F4W4, in favor of using her ridiculous non-sacred shapeshifter giants.  Which... have been highly annoying.

However her magic use has not been particularly dangerous thus far.  Much like yours.  It'd be interesting to hear what her strategy was/is, but given the circumstances it seems unlikely that I'll find out in the short term.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: IWishIWereSarah on October 29, 2015, 02:31:09 am
She want after a much more restrained bless than you, I believe F4W4
Something like that, yeah.
but, as non sacred, their gold upkeep per expansion party is quite high. and they're bad underwater, as they rely on the gift-breathing ability from the Giant commanders (which makes them poor-amphibious).
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: Il Palazzo on October 29, 2015, 12:24:19 pm
By the way, BFEL, whenever you decide you're done with the game, it's good practice to set yourself to AI rather than just stop submitting.
Remember that it's a community-driven game, and other players get annoyed if the game is held up needlessly.

Similarly, even when you actually do lose in the game, the server still awaits your one last turn, even when there's no orders to give.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: E. Albright on October 29, 2015, 12:31:45 pm
Well, it did matter less this time, since there were another couple of no-good, useless heel-draggers taking their sweet time getting their turns in. *whistles innocently*
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: EuchreJack on October 29, 2015, 02:00:49 pm
Yeah, I know. And I probably just shouldn't go evo at all. Ever. Because I don't know how to use it. At all.

Don't give up, you learn by doing.  The Dominions magic system is complex, confusing, and has a mind all its own.  After the fifth spell cast, NOBODY knows what it's doing (although the more experienced/researched players know what the AI prefers).

Honestly, I'm still a little fuzzy on spell resistance chances, and I've played in several multiplayer games.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: Frumple on October 29, 2015, 05:17:26 pm
Preemptively requesting an extension on the next turn (not this one, I've already got that in) -- 12h should be plenty, and probably won't be needed, but better safe than stale. Got an appointment coming up tomorrow that might interfere afterwards for a day or so.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: AlStar on October 29, 2015, 06:47:54 pm
Man, you could have harassed me with that sneaky scouts/hero/skeleton summoner band forever, but you got greedy.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: E. Albright on October 29, 2015, 07:55:07 pm
Nah, I just forgot which provinces were cavemen and which were oni. Which means I got lazy, not greedy, since all I'd've needed to do to check was dig up my archived saves. But let's make sure we're accusing me of the right vices, now, hmm?
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: EnigmaticHat on October 30, 2015, 03:36:04 am
Moving and switching computers in the same day, so... 12h extension please?  I *should* be fine without it, but you never know.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: E. Albright on October 30, 2015, 01:17:59 pm
Pushed 12h.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: Frumple on October 30, 2015, 04:43:35 pm
... can ignore my extension request for next turn, especially considering the one this turn. M'good.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: Il Palazzo on October 31, 2015, 07:59:58 am
What's up with Boksi?
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: AlStar on October 31, 2015, 09:28:42 am
Stalled 4 turns so far, 3 of those in the last 5 turns, and currently the only one whose turn we're waiting on for this turn.

Edit: and now 5 total, 3 in a row.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: E. Albright on October 31, 2015, 12:41:56 pm
*sigh*

Not the first game where this has happened with them. And they're not in particularly bad straits either. I'll send messages on multiple channels to try to see if we're actually dead in the water.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: Boksi on November 02, 2015, 04:50:57 pm
Yeah, not exactly the most reliable player, me. Sorry about that.

And I won't be doing a double turn tonight even though I'm the last player. Too tired for that.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: AlStar on November 02, 2015, 10:59:49 pm
I will freely admit that I did not expect 4 points of PD to win against a 140 gold mage and 60 corpse constructs. Let's hear it for a lucky arrow against a diseased commander!
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: EuchreJack on November 03, 2015, 01:06:48 am
I will freely admit that I did not expect 4 points of PD to win against a 140 gold mage and 60 corpse constructs. Let's hear it for a lucky arrow against a diseased commander!

Yeah, that is why I generally never let my armies be lead by a single commander.  That sort of thing is way too common.

Thugs and SCs, of course, are a completely different story.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: E. Albright on November 03, 2015, 02:07:03 pm
10 diamonds and mage-turns. Painful, but not excruciating, especially since my current foreign policy can be summed up as "make Fairig's inevitable demise as annoying to Hobnia as possible" - under that definition of success, this was a mere setback rather than an outright failure.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: Elfeater on November 03, 2015, 07:40:16 pm
I would be up for another one of these in MA or LA.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: E. Albright on November 03, 2015, 07:58:59 pm
I could deal with that, myself. I'm still playing the current game, but it's, uh, pretty low-commitment for me at this point. I assume by "another one of these" you mean another NG game with hashed seeds of some sort, only MA or LA?

I'd rather not be stuck admin'ing, even though it's not a terribly huge amount of work.

NG 0.6.8 is out, BTW, and gives a lot more variety for Caelians, and a lot more bronze for everyone, though that's less of an issue in MA and LA. It also finally allows for special commanders ą la wolfherds, eunuchs, siege engineers, skeptics, etc.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: AlStar on November 03, 2015, 10:40:27 pm
So you'll miss three turns in a row, but now that I decide to actually attack you, you're suddenly all about playing your turns, eh?

Bah.  :P
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: EuchreJack on November 03, 2015, 10:42:43 pm
I would be up for another one of these in MA or LA.
I could deal with that, myself. I'm still playing the current game, but it's, uh, pretty low-commitment for me at this point. I assume by "another one of these" you mean another NG game with hashed seeds of some sort, only MA or LA?

I'd rather not be stuck admin'ing, even though it's not a terribly huge amount of work.

NG 0.6.8 is out, BTW, and gives a lot more variety for Caelians, and a lot more bronze for everyone, though that's less of an issue in MA and LA. It also finally allows for special commanders ą la wolfherds, eunuchs, siege engineers, skeptics, etc.


Ooh Ooh Ooh, me too!
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: AlStar on November 05, 2015, 07:22:00 am
The battle at Belmar sucked (a lot), but I can deal with it.

I'm really annoyed at Wynna though - I had your entire army dead-to-rights there. We were steadily killing off your troops, and would've killed them all if my morale hadn't mysteriously broken while my troops were feasting on sleeping giant.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: EuchreJack on November 05, 2015, 01:26:17 pm
The battle at Belmar sucked (a lot), but I can deal with it.

I'm really annoyed at Wynna though - I had your entire army dead-to-rights there. We were steadily killing off your troops, and would've killed them all if my morale hadn't mysteriously broken while my troops were feasting on sleeping giant.

I probably shouldn't be revealing this to players I hopefully will be facing in a new game soon, but that is exactly why I prefer Beserking as many of my troops as soon as possible.  None of that silly "I wanna go home" stuff.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: sprinkled chariot on November 05, 2015, 01:52:28 pm
I will freely admit that I did not expect 4 points of PD to win against a 140 gold mage and 60 corpse constructs. Let's hear it for a lucky arrow against a diseased commander!
Why would you even use corpse constructs, especially amass them?
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: E. Albright on November 05, 2015, 02:28:49 pm
Because they're very strong for how cheap, easy, and quick to amass as they are.

Please don't tell me you don't use Lightning Rods/Storm Spools/Storm Staves and so only create one per gem per casting? The 60 that died in that battle were from 10 castings of the spell, and hence cost me 10 gems and 10 A1D1 mage-turns to accumulate (not counting pre-manufacturing infrastructure costs for Rod(s) and Spool(s), but that has served to produce far more than just those 60)...
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: sprinkled chariot on November 05, 2015, 02:43:07 pm
Because they're very strong for how cheap, easy, and quick to amass as they are.

Please don't tell me you don't use Lightning Rods/Storm Spools/Storm Staves and so only create one per gem per casting? The 60 that died in that battle were from 10 castings of the spell, and hence cost me 10 gems and 10 A1D1 mage-turns to accumulate (not counting pre-manufacturing infrastructure costs for Rod(s) and Spool(s), but that has served to produce far more than just those 60)...
Unless you overbuff them, they seem to die like peasants.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: Frumple on November 05, 2015, 03:24:19 pm
They're really good arrowcatchers/chaff for their cost. Just... kinda' useless as anything else. They die about like peasants because peasants have roughly equivalent combat stats outside of morale and HP. And the strength, technically, but you're not exactly going to be hitting much with 8 attack.

In other news, you okay, Enigmatic?
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: EuchreJack on November 05, 2015, 04:33:12 pm
Because they're very strong for how cheap, easy, and quick to amass as they are.

Please don't tell me you don't use Lightning Rods/Storm Spools/Storm Staves and so only create one per gem per casting? The 60 that died in that battle were from 10 castings of the spell, and hence cost me 10 gems and 10 A1D1 mage-turns to accumulate (not counting pre-manufacturing infrastructure costs for Rod(s) and Spool(s), but that has served to produce far more than just those 60)...
Unless you overbuff them, they seem to die like peasants.
But they don't run away like peasants.  Pretty much their main advantage.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: E. Albright on November 05, 2015, 06:33:48 pm
Well, they also laugh at lightning spam and are tiresome to kill in melee. They're good at what they do. Which is "be quality chaff". No one should ever mistake them for line infantry, but they're quite nice chaff.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: BFEL on November 05, 2015, 11:52:25 pm
They're the chaff that all the other chaff dreams of being one day.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: EnigmaticHat on November 06, 2015, 06:59:36 am
In other news, you okay, Enigmatic?
Yeah I'm good.  Got distracted by something in life.  Thanks for asking.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: IWishIWereSarah on November 06, 2015, 11:10:03 am
... Augustus is dead :(
All what was left is dead :/
The nation's most powerful mages have lost all insight and are stealing gems from the laboratories !
God help us ! ... Oh wait, God is dead :/
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: Il Palazzo on November 06, 2015, 11:19:15 am
Yeah, sorry IWIWS! I kinda waltzed in your parts of the river without saying anything. But you know, there can be only one frost father. Good fight you put up there, though.

By the way, I think Santa Claus might be changing... something is stirring deep inside him... Santa Claus has evolved! He is now Satan Claus, and tentatively declares war on everybody in the world!
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: IWishIWereSarah on November 06, 2015, 11:40:17 am
Yeah, sorry IWIWS! I kinda waltzed in your parts of the river without saying anything.
I won't say that I wasn't expecting this ;)
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: E. Albright on November 06, 2015, 11:52:04 am
On the subject of unexpected things, how am I still alive? I expected to be reduced to my puddle and domkilled 6 turns or so ago. I appear to have done too good of a job of skewing the cost/benefit ratios of conquering my rocky sandheap...
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: Frumple on November 06, 2015, 12:01:16 pm
*shrugs* I haven't really felt like trying, and I think hobina got... distracted.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: BFEL on November 06, 2015, 10:00:30 pm
For those of us who failed miserably at this could you explain the last few statements?
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: EnigmaticHat on November 06, 2015, 10:02:34 pm
Yeah, sorry IWIWS! I kinda waltzed in your parts of the river without saying anything. But you know, there can be only one frost father. Good fight you put up there, though.

By the way, I think Santa Claus might be changing... something is stirring deep inside him... Santa Claus has evolved! He is now Satan Claus, and tentatively declares war on everybody in the world!
...sigh...

Does this mean I have to actually start paying attention on my turns again?
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: BFEL on November 06, 2015, 10:21:50 pm
Yeah, sorry IWIWS! I kinda waltzed in your parts of the river without saying anything. But you know, there can be only one frost father. Good fight you put up there, though.

By the way, I think Santa Claus might be changing... something is stirring deep inside him... Santa Claus has evolved! He is now Satan Claus, and tentatively declares war on everybody in the world!
...sigh...

Does this mean I have to actually start paying attention on my turns again?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HsqmU3v0hVA
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: AlStar on November 08, 2015, 12:23:21 pm
Hey, my prophet got killed. Finally! Dude was diseased forever ago, and of course his first wound was mute, bringing him down to (a totally useless) 2 holy.

Now (once I get the ability to do make a new prophet) I can finally claim some of these thrones I'm sitting on.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: EnigmaticHat on November 10, 2015, 08:02:15 am
I am so phoning in my turns right now.  Like I'm paying attention to a few things every turn but just a few; like an important combat spell just didn't go off two turns ago and I never even bothered to analyse why.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: EnigmaticHat on November 14, 2015, 12:19:41 am
The fuck happened in that throne deep in my territory to let Rhizdos take it?
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: IWishIWereSarah on November 14, 2015, 02:31:31 am
Apparently, my prophet want you all to know that he will bring back his god, even he has to do it himself.
And apparently, he's doing great right now :D

PS: I love the announcement : the DEATH LORD has claimed the throne of LIFE !
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: Il Palazzo on November 14, 2015, 06:03:41 am
Frumple, what happened to your resolve? All those mercenaries won't kill themselves unless paid to.

The fuck happened in that throne deep in my territory to let Rhizdos take it?
Magic! Literally.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: Frumple on November 14, 2015, 07:09:04 am
No worries, the resolve is still there. It's just that while the spirit has been willing, the flesh has been busy. Their time will come. Horoken has not forgotten.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: AlStar on November 15, 2015, 12:40:37 pm
And thus starts the decline of Hobnia. I've managed some great victories, but in the end, my troops aren't powerful enough to deal with massed giants, and my mages really don't have the paths to magic them to death.

We've done far better than I ever imagined, and I'll fight to the end, but I think this is the beginning of the end.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: E. Albright on November 15, 2015, 01:05:30 pm
*Your troops aren't powerful enough to deal with massed greater giants. I'm pretty sure your Grand Blob could have killed my Grand Blob.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: Il Palazzo on November 16, 2015, 11:28:29 am
Mon le pyre! I needed it to feel better about myself. Who would do such a heartless thing?
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: AlStar on November 17, 2015, 07:48:13 pm
That was quite the turn for people casting global enchantments.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: Il Palazzo on November 17, 2015, 07:56:57 pm
One too many, if you ask me!
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: Frumple on November 17, 2015, 08:05:24 pm
Timing so good I wish it'd been intentional. Not even out of hostility or anything, it was just a helluva' hat trick and it'd be amazing to be able to do it on command.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: BFEL on November 18, 2015, 06:28:44 am
WHAT HAPPENED?????
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: EnigmaticHat on November 18, 2015, 06:33:15 am
WHAT HAPPENED?????
Someone's global got bumped off because like five globals got cast on the same turn.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: Il Palazzo on November 18, 2015, 08:35:43 am
They're all the boring kind of globals, though.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: Frumple on November 18, 2015, 07:04:35 pm
Abeig cuttin' it close, that time :V

May those playing chicken with the stale deadline never run afowl of power outages :P
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: Il Palazzo on November 19, 2015, 05:18:03 am
I like how Hobnia has almost three times as many provinces as Fhuamdar, and yet the same gold & gem income.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: AlStar on November 19, 2015, 07:36:36 am
I like how Hobnia has almost three times as many provinces as Fhuamdar, and yet the same gold & gem income.
1) There are a lot of shit provinces around my side of the map.
2) Those provinces that were not shit initially have been made so due to years of magical plagues and war.

It's been kind of like playing as one of the popkill nations, but without the freespawn. I'm pretty sure a non-trivial percentage of my income is derived from gold and silver mines, because it's sure as hell not coming from my population.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: Boksi on November 22, 2015, 06:42:18 am
Uh... I don't suppose you could give me a few hours' extension? I was intending on getting my turn done earlier today, but it looks like I won't be able to do so until this evening.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: BFEL on November 22, 2015, 10:13:05 am
Uh... I don't suppose you could give me a few hours' extension? I was intending on getting my turn done earlier today, but it looks like I won't be able to do so until this evening.
Boksi missing a deadline? I NEVER WOULD HAVE IMAGINED THIS COULD HAPPEN :P
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: Frumple on November 22, 2015, 11:11:42 am
Giant nations that got squished don't get to snark.

... speaking of which, I wasn't the first one to die. No one else got in on the betting, so... I guess we would split the pot, IP? I send a death gem, you send a water?
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: Il Palazzo on November 22, 2015, 01:25:30 pm
What was that bet about again?


Jesus, no wonder half the south is depopulated, what with those hordes of bane venom charmers roaming around.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: IWishIWereSarah on November 22, 2015, 01:59:29 pm
For what it's worth, I liked the south like that : easier to fly through :D
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: Frumple on November 22, 2015, 03:36:14 pm
re: bet: I put 2 death gems on me being the first to die, you threw in from a pair of water. I... didn't, and no one else bet, so I figure we split it.

And yeah, I'd wager there's... probably twenty, twenty-five BVC carriers roaming around the south continent right now? Near as I can tell, several of us down here have had just enough death to not really be able to do anything better with it than invest in popkill.

So people did. South continent is... not a nice place to live anymore :V
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: Il Palazzo on November 22, 2015, 04:21:02 pm
See, that only proves none of you guys down there is fit to rule this world.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: BFEL on November 22, 2015, 04:22:43 pm
I like how the north was a clusterfuck of treachery and manipulation while the south was a clusterfuck of war and disease.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: EnigmaticHat on November 22, 2015, 08:34:54 pm
So... IWishIWasSarah still lives on?  How does that work?

I like how the north was a clusterfuck of treachery and manipulation while the south was a clusterfuck of war and disease.

I don't think there was an actual betrayal at any point...
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: Il Palazzo on November 22, 2015, 08:37:48 pm
So... IWishIWasSarah still lives on?  How does that work?
It's the South, man. Nothing makes sense down there.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: E. Albright on November 22, 2015, 08:44:59 pm
Yeah, um, sorry about the no-extension, Boksi - like I said in the 4.18 thread (but forgot to say here), I was AFK for ~30h.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: Boksi on November 22, 2015, 09:52:40 pm
It's no real problem, we'll just play on.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: EnigmaticHat on November 23, 2015, 07:44:26 am
I need an extension.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: E. Albright on November 23, 2015, 09:04:27 am
Pushed 12h.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: Il Palazzo on November 24, 2015, 02:07:39 am
See, I've got just one province in the South, and I'm already making the whole region a better place.
Vote Santa Christ to make Valanis great again!
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: BFEL on November 24, 2015, 01:10:05 pm
Clearly they need to send all the BVC's to the North instead :P
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: E. Albright on November 24, 2015, 01:22:37 pm
No, no, no. There are still peasants breeding like rats down here, and just as nits make lice, peasants make mercenaries. If the south is ever to be cleansed of the blight of sellswords, we must persevere in rotting out their fires, base as well as flame.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: AlStar on November 28, 2015, 06:56:42 pm
Ah, disease - the cause of, and solution to, all of life's problems.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: EnigmaticHat on November 28, 2015, 09:04:32 pm
Clearly they need to send all the BVC's to the North instead :P
Just because the north is entirely populated by your enemies...
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: Il Palazzo on November 28, 2015, 09:11:46 pm
Hey, I'm running out of things to do. Imma gonna attack somebody everybody soon to help solve this problem!
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: IWishIWereSarah on November 28, 2015, 09:17:03 pm
Well, it's time to say goodbye for me : no more gold to fund those mercenaries :/
And it's a bit hard to keep a nation up with no income...
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: AlStar on November 28, 2015, 09:19:09 pm
Well, it's time to say goodbye for me : no more gold to fund those mercenaries :/
And it's a bit hard to keep a nation up with no income...
I was honestly surprised that you had the leftover gold to buy them in the first place - I assumed that I must have been mistaken and you still had a functioning empire hidden somewhere.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: Il Palazzo on November 28, 2015, 09:20:35 pm
Yup, kudos to you IWIWS for keeping it going this long against all odds.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: IWishIWereSarah on November 28, 2015, 09:32:36 pm
I was honestly surprised that you had the leftover gold to buy them in the first place
Well, seeing what kind of army was going toward my capital, a few sacreds (without prophet) wouldn't have changed anything, so I didn't recruit for a few turns ;)
I'm a bit sad that I couldn't take over a potential throne of Nature and trigger a nice "Gaļa attack"  for you to remember :/
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: EnigmaticHat on November 28, 2015, 09:47:41 pm
Yup, kudos to you IWIWS for keeping it going this long against all odds.
I'm sure it was an epic last stand, but given how many scouts I have down there I have no idea what happened (its not many scouts).

I was honestly surprised that you had the leftover gold to buy them in the first place
Well, seeing what kind of army was going toward my capital, a few sacreds (without prophet) wouldn't have changed anything, so I didn't recruit for a few turns ;)
I'm a bit sad that I couldn't take over a potential throne of Nature and trigger a nice "Gaļa attack"  for you to remember :/
You were a thorn in my side, that's for sure.  I can't help but feel that if you had split your armies and been a little more aggressive I wouldn't have held out as long as I did.  Same goes for BFEL; most of the territorial gains in the war were had by ten (giant, sacred, invincible, granted) troops he snuck past my main army.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: E. Albright on November 29, 2015, 09:24:47 am
Well, it's time to say goodbye for me : no more gold to fund those mercenaries :/
And it's a bit hard to keep a nation up with no income...

Hmmph! Fairig has had a negative net income for at least two years, pretty much everyone still defending it is dead and/or dying (and has been for at least two years), and you don't see us complaining...
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: BFEL on November 29, 2015, 08:04:28 pm
Yup, kudos to you IWIWS for keeping it going this long against all odds.
I'm sure it was an epic last stand, but given how many scouts I have down there I have no idea what happened (its not many scouts).

I was honestly surprised that you had the leftover gold to buy them in the first place
Well, seeing what kind of army was going toward my capital, a few sacreds (without prophet) wouldn't have changed anything, so I didn't recruit for a few turns ;)
I'm a bit sad that I couldn't take over a potential throne of Nature and trigger a nice "Gaļa attack"  for you to remember :/
You were a thorn in my side, that's for sure.  I can't help but feel that if you had split your armies and been a little more aggressive I wouldn't have held out as long as I did.  Same goes for BFEL; most of the territorial gains in the war were had by ten (giant, sacred, invincible, granted) troops he snuck past my main army.
Yeah, unfortunately I snuck them right into Rizdos who then roflstomped all over my everything. I REALLY should have just murdered him up early on. Actually I should have just murdered EVERYONE up early on come to think of it :P
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: Il Palazzo on December 01, 2015, 04:17:35 pm
Can I have a 24h extension TO PLAN MY SURPRISE ATTACK ON EVERYBODY, please?
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: E. Albright on December 01, 2015, 04:30:01 pm
You can have 24h, but if you cut it too close to the deadline, you're going to end up with a 144h extension.

--

In entirely unrelated news, I will be AFK from early-ish Th to late-ish M. Or possibly only from F - Su, but I can't count on the latter. I'm claiming Admin's Privilege to impose this hiatus on you lot. If it's feasible, I'll get in one more turn after the outstanding one and then impose the delay from my phone after that next turn processes, but that will come down to how much of the 24h extension Il Palazzo needs to use and/or if I'm AFK on Friday.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: Il Palazzo on December 01, 2015, 04:34:17 pm
Actually, I'd be entirely for a good, long break from the game, if everybody else agrees.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: E. Albright on December 01, 2015, 04:36:28 pm
Well, if we don't have any objections I'll just go ahead and extend the current 24h extension through next Tuesday. I must say having nothing compelling me to take a laptop with me during even part of the time I'll be traveling would certainly be welcome.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: Frumple on December 01, 2015, 04:41:37 pm
*throws ruckus*

... nah, I don't really mind. Just... someone make sure to PM me or something when the hiatus ends, please :V
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: E. Albright on December 02, 2015, 03:57:00 am
Pushed 120h; i.e., 'til next Tuesday. Quickhost is also turned off. So if y'all want to get your turns in now-ish and then forget the game for the next several days, that'd work out well.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: EnigmaticHat on December 08, 2015, 06:40:34 am
In case you never check your email like me: the turn is hosting soon.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: Il Palazzo on December 08, 2015, 08:13:47 am
I've procrastinated this long, I'll procrastinate 'till the last minute!
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: Il Palazzo on December 08, 2015, 11:39:09 am
I spy with my little eye something beginning with 'quickhost' and ending with 'is off, contrary to what the message from admin said'. Also, the deadline got pushed 24 h for some reason.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: EnigmaticHat on December 10, 2015, 03:55:45 am
So first of all, could I have a 12h extension please?

Secondly, I just took 10 of Ill Palazzo's provinces in one turn, hopefully more to follow.  If anyone has any plans to hurt the nation that is, I believe, the clear frontrunner, now would be the time.  Even just flinging destruction around at random towards the northeast region of the world would be appreciated.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: Il Palazzo on December 10, 2015, 07:48:57 am
Yes! Pay me back for all those plagues and other random shit I've been flinging willy-nilly at your capitols these past years!
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: Il Palazzo on December 10, 2015, 02:34:07 pm
Hey, just a heads-up, I'm also going to be unable to make it before the deadline, and would appreciate something more in tune of 24 hours on top of what we've got now.

However, E.Albright seems to be gone, so it's likely that both me and EnigmaticHat might stall. In such a case, I'd like a rollback, so please prepare for that possibility.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: Boksi on December 10, 2015, 03:15:12 pm
Well, if two people want an extension/rollback, then I guess I'll just study for tomorrow's exam instead of trying to get my turn in.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: E. Albright on December 10, 2015, 10:02:04 pm
Argle-bargle. I'm back, finally, but not in time to catch the incoming stales - I was having far too much fun driving for 9 hours while that was going on to check the forums or even the Llamaserver page.

I shall suck it up, and throw away the 10 minutes of my life I wasted by doing my turn before coming and checking the forums and finding out we need to roll back. Hopefully I'll remember my exceedingly-clever latest-commander-name for Round 73 Take Two. Rollback incoming - EH and IP are the only ones who should do anything - for the rest of us, regardless of what LS says, it has our old turns and will use them. The rest of you lot just sit tight, and delete the about-to-be-obsolete turn 73 in your inbox; as soon as our stalers post their turns, I'll force hosting, and we should be back underway soon-ish. I'm also gonna bump us up to 36h per turn, as we are pretty deep in for only 30h per turn (even if the pace is nice).
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: EnigmaticHat on December 10, 2015, 10:14:37 pm
But I did submit my turn -_-

If I submit the one that I played before, will it work or will it reject it?
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: E. Albright on December 10, 2015, 10:18:03 pm
It'll work. I saw two stales but can't remember who they were, so re-reading upthread I'm guessing Boksi was the other one who needs to submit then?

If you're paranoid, re-submit yours too. Honor system you didn't peek and change it, and all that. The old turn should be what the server has, so re-receiving it will change nothing but better safe, etc.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: E. Albright on December 11, 2015, 07:30:29 pm
(Postponing 12h to ensure the rollback was not in vain...)
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: Il Palazzo on December 12, 2015, 02:40:13 am
Don't worry, I've just got up earlier in the morning, just to get it done before the deadline.
I gotta say, my rl obligations do not jibe well with suddenly having stuff to do after 70-odd turns of relative calm.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: Il Palazzo on December 12, 2015, 05:47:38 am
Done! Do your duty Mr. Admin (whenever you're ready, no need to rush actually).
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: Il Palazzo on December 12, 2015, 12:02:54 pm
Huh. Turns out sending soullless through stygian paths is not such a good idea - 90% never made it to the destination.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: EuchreJack on December 12, 2015, 04:45:48 pm
Huh. Turns out sending soullless through stygian paths is not such a good idea - 90% never made it to the destination.

Guess the Land of the Dead wanted its Dead back...
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: BFEL on December 13, 2015, 02:29:46 am
Huh. Turns out sending soullless through stygian paths is not such a good idea - 90% never made it to the destination.

Guess the Land of the Dead wanted its Dead back...
Shame on Palazzo for taking them away from their dead families in the first place!  >:(
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: EuchreJack on December 13, 2015, 02:50:18 am
Huh. Turns out sending soullless through stygian paths is not such a good idea - 90% never made it to the destination.

Guess the Land of the Dead wanted its Dead back...
Shame on Palazzo for taking them away from their dead families in the first place!  >:(
Ah, but he returned 90% of them to their dead homes.  His real sin was not paying them...
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: E. Albright on December 13, 2015, 11:20:21 am
No, no, no. Those dead parents got some much-needed time away from their dead children and infants. Il Palazzo was running a charity, if you ask me.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: EnigmaticHat on December 13, 2015, 08:40:21 pm
Is there any chance I could sub out?  That air attack on Rhizdos was kind of my last hurrah, and it didn't work.

Abeig has plenty of gems and research and mages and land and such.  But I don't have the lategame knowledge or will to try to organize it all into something useful at this point.  Also Rhizdos is kind of overwhelmingly powerful but y'all already know that.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: AlStar on December 13, 2015, 10:07:08 pm
Although I'm currently not doing horribly at maintaining my current holdings,  I'd be willing to call this a lost cause - I don't think that the South, as divided and war-weary as it is, can hope to stand against the North.

If I'm wrong, and no one else agrees with me, then I'm more than willing to fight to the end, but from my point of view I don't know that this is a winnable situation.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: Il Palazzo on December 13, 2015, 10:28:26 pm
I honestly don't think you guys can win, even if you tried forging a proper alliance, Lord of the Rings style. Judging by the graphs, I've more resources than all of you combined, and am way ahead in research (just maxing out last school now).

I'll be cool with calling the game finished, if that's the general consensus. Getting it off my list of things to do would be nice.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: Frumple on December 13, 2015, 10:44:39 pm
I'd kinda' like to keep going and see what sort of nuisance I can make of myself (got six astral mages this turn, and only lost three replaceable ones in the process!), but I'm not exactly heavily invested in continuing to play, either. I've honestly been half-arsing it roughly from the point Al rebuffed attempts to group up the south and jump the north. Probably earlier, really.

That said, that is three of the five remaining players* more or less calling it quits, sooo...

*Fairig? What fairig?
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: E. Albright on December 13, 2015, 11:28:35 pm
Slander! Slander, I tell you!

(I was going to suggest the same thing, actually. It really doesn't seem winnable by anyone but our esteemed front-runner, strictly judging by the goat entrails that I can actually see. Ofc, my opinion holds little weight. I've enjoyed making a nuisance of myself and basically staying alive wholly by virtue of a skewed cost-benefit ratio discouraging anyone from going to the bother of killing me off, but yeah, Fairig, what Fairig indeed...)
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Game underway
Post by: E. Albright on December 13, 2015, 11:32:05 pm
Barring outraged protests from Boksi, I'll axe the game tomorrow night. It was fun, albeit wildly imbalanced. As was pretty much expected, ofc.

I would as always appreciate balance feedback on NG, as it's quite the PITA to even roughly balance owing to its randomness, but one must try...
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Probably done?
Post by: AlStar on December 13, 2015, 11:39:50 pm
My only thought would be that it seems like sacred giants - especially those with magic weapons and/or berserk need a major price spike and/or a reduction in numbers recruitable. It's currently far too easy to throw a nature bless on them and just wreck face.

The fact that the sacred giants in this game (beyond whatever handy extras they might've rolled) all also had the ability to sail, go underwater, plus 50% nightvision? Not cool.

If they were... I dunno? 150-200 gold each, or were limited to 1-2 recruit/turn? It might help us poor non-giants, anyway.

Just my opinion as one of the have-nots.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Probably done?
Post by: E. Albright on December 13, 2015, 11:59:13 pm
Comparing the basestats of Fomorians to most other giants, it really seems nuts for them to have a base cost of 60, but that's what it is because of the basegame. I'm going to push the base cost up to 90g as a starting measure (so a 50% increase, akin to full-blood Rephaim), and will continue to weigh the possibility of them getting mandatory-but-random "giant penalties" (voracious appetite, elemental vulnerabilities, popkill, unrest, etc.)
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Probably done?
Post by: EnigmaticHat on December 14, 2015, 12:31:58 am
Abeig felt... I don't know.  I came in with this whole list of advantages that I had, but as it turns out, air magic just doesn't do shit against sacred giants.  Even the dreaded Rain of Stones and Fog Warriors were merely ok.  Seeking Arrow only did anything because BFEL committed a classic newbie error (one commander per army).

I really hit my peak with my blazingly fast early expansion and research, everything else was just downhill from there.

Also, I expected to bring death magic to bear a long time ago, but as it turns out the specific mage I was recruiting couldn't random double death  :-X  That was my other, very similar mage type.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Probably done?
Post by: Frumple on December 14, 2015, 01:44:31 am
Really, the weirdest thing to me about those sacred giants, in this game, was that... none of the sacred giant people really did anything with them (from what I could see, anyway). Boksi was the most aggressive sacred user I noticed, and they staled like 1/10th of their turns. Don't think ever really attacked anyone except Al, either. EA got jumped by pigeons, BFEL and Iwa just seemed to somehow die off while playing in the water or somethin', it was ruddy weird. I was seriously expecting giants to come stomping over the everything for probably the first thirty turns or so, but it never seemed to manifest.

Though re: Giants and costing, while it'd probably be (much) easier to bump their price/add penalties, what I'd probably like to see more is doing something to the little people. Make it so tiny folk in a world of sacred giants actually have something that can gold-for-gold match the blighters. Maybe do something really silly and have the generation process check (probably near the end of the process) for size>own!sacred and dole out a point or ten of giant killer for every size category they're lacking (maybe multiplied by the percentage of genned nations that have a giant sacred?), or something to similar effect. A post-gen check for % of genned nations that have sacred giants, and then adding more stuff to everyone else's sacreds based on how prevalent they are, that kind of thing. Think I said it somewhere else, it wasn't really the giants or the formorians, it was just how many people had the things that was the major problem -- didn't have that kind of meta balance the base game has, where a giant nation is more or less all alone.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Probably done?
Post by: Il Palazzo on December 14, 2015, 03:16:29 am
I've only got to the state I'm in because I was left alone for long enough to research Enslave Mind, at which point all the scary giants in the world became a non-issue.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Probably done?
Post by: E. Albright on December 14, 2015, 11:18:53 am
I got screwed by geography and economics. I expanded vigorously right up until I started getting rolled back, which is probably the main reason Frumple never felt threatened - I always had indies to beat up, so there was no need to get aggressive and risk having the top-tier giants my the north of me stomp all over my decidedly mid-tier giants. I suppose I could have conspired with Boksi to collectively steamroll Frumple, but the easy expansion made it feel unnecessary. The problem was that the expansion was into wastelands, mountains, and caves, and my income was anemic at best. Combine that with my cap-only sacreds that I simply had to build constantly or permanently miss out on production opportunities (frankly, while very nice troops, my giants were a trap), and I had very sluggish development of my crappy holdings. I was playing catch-up on research the whole game, and while I did have high plans to fix that with my massive ruby reserve, I never got the chance owing to AlStar's slightly-inferior-but-far-more-numerous-and-better-supported pigeons which descended on my barren wastes and desolate caves like a plague of locusts. The rest is of course a history of petty spite, vindictive pique, and conniving diplomacy...
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Probably done?
Post by: Il Palazzo on December 14, 2015, 11:55:30 am
Anyhow, thanks everybody for participating. It was crazy unbalanced, but fun. I almost feel like another one.
Almost.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Probably done?
Post by: E. Albright on December 14, 2015, 12:03:56 pm
Think I said it somewhere else, it wasn't really the giants or the formorians, it was just how many people had the things that was the major problem -- didn't have that kind of meta balance the base game has, where a giant nation is more or less all alone.

One problem with this was that at the time in EA, Fomorians were the second most likely race after generic humans - basechance 0.6 vs. 1 or 1.25, I wanna say, whereas other "major" races were 0.3-0.5, and minors were 0.1-0.2, They have since been reduced to a more reasonable 0.3/0.1/0.05 EA/MA/LA spread.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Probably done?
Post by: EuchreJack on December 14, 2015, 03:33:00 pm
I've only got to the state I'm in because I was left alone for long enough to research Enslave Mind, at which point all the scary giants in the world became a non-issue.

So they all underestimated you,
...they thought you were harmless
...and then you won.

I suddenly feel vindicated for vilifying you in all those Dom3 games we fought.  Yay!
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Done
Post by: Boksi on December 14, 2015, 04:28:01 pm
I'm a bit miffed that it's over like this, but to be honest my only plan at this point was 'alchemize all my gems into death gems and cast burden of time'. It was a gamble but I figured if I got it up and it didn't get dispelled immediately, it'd do a number on Palazzo's human mages and wouldn't be quite as devastating to my own mage corps.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Done
Post by: E. Albright on December 14, 2015, 07:01:12 pm
Oh geez. You should have shared your plan with me - I'd've gladly thrown my 450 gem reserve (which only would have translated to 260 amethyst, but still) into such a gloriously petty and spiteful plan...
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Done
Post by: EnigmaticHat on December 14, 2015, 08:15:15 pm
*raises hand* I had 180 at one point.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Done
Post by: Il Palazzo on December 14, 2015, 08:53:13 pm
I had 220 income as of last turn.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Done
Post by: EnigmaticHat on December 14, 2015, 09:03:35 pm
I'm sure you would have been very glad to contribute :P

Death gems really were the dump stat of this game tho.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Probably done?
Post by: BFEL on December 14, 2015, 09:11:29 pm
Really, the weirdest thing to me about those sacred giants, in this game, was that... none of the sacred giant people really did anything with them (from what I could see, anyway). Boksi was the most aggressive sacred user I noticed, and they staled like 1/10th of their turns. Don't think ever really attacked anyone except Al, either. EA got jumped by pigeons, BFEL and Iwa just seemed to somehow die off while playing in the water or somethin', it was ruddy weird. I was seriously expecting giants to come stomping over the everything for probably the first thirty turns or so, but it never seemed to manifest.
As I stated before, I was under the impression that there was some sacred "no attacking other players for X turns" thing going on.
And I'm sure Mr. Hat will be glad to tell you exactly how I used my giants :P
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Probably done?
Post by: Frumple on December 14, 2015, 11:26:59 pm
So they all underestimated you,
...they thought you were harmless
...and then you won.

I suddenly feel vindicated for vilifying you in all those Dom3 games we fought.  Yay!
It was less "underestimated" and more "the south was embroiled in a more or less 3v1 war that the 3 was willing to stop but the 1 wasn't" and couldn't do anything about it before riz took off. Al played kingmaker, basically :P

Though, to be fair, the pox ridden mire that most of the south ended up as part of that kerfluffle probably didn't help.

Maybe in retrospect the 20+ flying bane venom carrying servants wasn't the best of resource expenditures. I'll be damned it wasn't satisfying, though.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Done
Post by: AlStar on December 14, 2015, 11:49:39 pm
I totally deny that I am the cause of the 3v1 of the South. Did I try to crush Fairig (and very nearly succeed)? sure. Did I attack Fhuamdar after they staled a whole bunch of turns in a row? sure.

But I never attacked Horoken - he attacked me (on multiple occasions!) with his glamor troops. In fact, I sent several messages trying to broker deals to join in an attack against the giants of the South. I was ignored.

So at very worst I'm responsible for no worse than a 2v1. The 3v1 was because of opportunistic and/or sociopathic aggression.
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Done
Post by: E. Albright on December 15, 2015, 03:31:15 am
Actually, it's moreso that I started in on diplomacy before you did, and to put it mildly, I was much less threatening than you were. So you still get credit for getting dogpiled.  :P

(I'm pretty sure you couldn't have taken my capital w/o a whole lot more resources than you brought to bear. I'm not even sure your doomstack would have beat my doomstack once I brought in chaff to keep my giants from getting swarmed. Alas, we'll never know because of my nation's petty, spiteful nature...)
Title: Re: Dominions 4 Round 17: Very Bad Things (Hashed NationGen) - Done
Post by: Frumple on December 15, 2015, 01:54:31 pm
Yeaaah, I wasn't exactly worried about fairig after massive armies of pigeons beelined towards my provinces right through them. Doubly so once they started trying to tear through boksi, too. Thus-far-passive neighbors vs aggressively expansionist neighbor isn't much of a choice :P