Bay 12 Games Forum

Finally... => Life Advice => Topic started by: BrigadeGeneral on October 17, 2015, 12:22:34 pm

Title: Struggling with game project
Post by: BrigadeGeneral on October 17, 2015, 12:22:34 pm
Hello.

I need advice. Perhaps, here at forums, there are people who can give me one.

I have made a strategy game, which - I Believe - if would be done on PC, it would definitely change this genre in single player theme and for one, multiplayer.

Now, I am not a programmer - to test all features I build up this game on board, with exact functions as it would be PC, which took me 8 months to accomplish, and another 8 to test with friends.

And there is a problem: after talks with studio, which could actually transfer this game and make it real product, I ran out of cash, because whole investition would costs around 70,000 USD, and such money I don’t have.

More to speak: I send e-mails to Venture Capital companies, and actually these companies are interested, but they want me to collect money first to start this product. Now, the question: Having only Concept graphics and GDD along with playable board game is enough to even think of Crowdfunding? 70k USD is BIG goal.

I am watching since few years CF campaigns, some I backed, and I feel like I have something extraordinary at plate, but I am afraid this whole idea will be wasted: I can not show any in-game gameplay or even demonstrate what this game has to offer, and from my experience so far, players often doesn’t understand actually what I have achived (you know, something like UFO, but in game-scale).

Final Question: What you would do, in order to obtain funding for unique project, without ability to create gameplay or demo version*

* - because creating playable demo would costs 3/4 of total game costs, and I still don’t have such money.

Thanks from any advice or help!


EDIT: I should mention, that whole project was developed since 2000, and took me 13 years from start to finish it in shape it is now.

Title: Re: Struggling with game project
Post by: cerapa on October 17, 2015, 01:13:13 pm
I'm having difficulty understanding parts of your post, so I may misunderstand some things.

Quote from: BrigadeGeneral on October 17, 2015, 12:22:34 pm
Having only Concept graphics and GDD along with playable board game is enough to even think of Crowdfunding? 70k USD is BIG goal.

Plenty of projects have gotten funded because of good looking art and a decent pitch. I'm really not an expert though, like at all. Having a board game version ready might make people think that you will actually deliver something though, so that might help you out.

Quote from: BrigadeGeneral on October 17, 2015, 12:22:34 pm
and from my experience so far, players often doesn’t understand actually what I have achived (you know, something like UFO, but in game-scale).

This is a bad sign. Especially when combined with the fact that you say you believe your game will change the genre. Are you sure you aren't just in love with your ideas, and the game is actually fun to play?


And as far as demonstrations go, what does the board version look like?
Title: Re: Struggling with game project
Post by: LordBucket on October 17, 2015, 06:46:51 pm
Quote from: BrigadeGeneral on October 17, 2015, 12:22:34 pm
What you would do, in order to obtain funding for unique project, without ability to create gameplay or demo version

Make a pitch video and take it to kickstarter (https://www.kickstarter.com/). People fund game projects all the time.

Also, I suggest having somebody who isn't you write the script and perform in the video. Your English is bad. My first impression was that you're a scammer, and from your post history (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?action=profile;area=showposts;u=113015) I'm not completely certain that you're not a bot.

Quote from: BrigadeGeneral on October 10, 2015, 05:18:08 am
(my country can not participate in Kickstarter) :(

Ok. How about indiegogo (https://www.indiegogo.com/)?

Quote
from my experience so far, players often doesn’t understand actually what I have achived

Well, ok. But if you want people to give you money for your idea, you have to convince them that it's worth doing so. That will be true at every step of the process: funding, selling it as a product, etc.

Title: Re: Struggling with game project
Post by: BrigadeGeneral on October 18, 2015, 02:04:10 am
I am not a scammer. I can speak english perfectly, yet writings give me a BIG trouble. Sorry, it's not my native language and I am self learner.

Actually, the board game itself looks like this: (http://naforum.zapodaj.net/thumbs/33856abc6b2b.jpg) (http://naforum.zapodaj.net/33856abc6b2b.jpg.html)

Outside opinions are like... "this is amazing", so when it comes to showing this board game, I am not shamed of anything.

Thanks, Lord and cerpa for replies! I will really think about creating good quality video and - if it will receive positive feedback - use it as a kickstarter promo.

Title: Re: Struggling with game project
Post by: Graknorke on October 23, 2015, 12:22:29 pm
If you already have it as a functioning board game, why not try selling it as a board game? It's not as though there's no market for them.
Title: Re: Struggling with game project
Post by: Wysthric on October 23, 2015, 04:08:08 pm
Quote from: Graknorke on October 23, 2015, 12:22:29 pm
If you already have it as a functioning board game, why not try selling it as a board game? It's not as though there's no market for them.

Yeah honestly I'd start it up as a boardgame venture first because that is what you've got. Sure it's not going to rake in as much as a PC game but if you've got the rights to the franchise you can always do that later. :)
Title: Re: Struggling with game project
Post by: My Name is Immaterial on October 23, 2015, 04:22:51 pm
I'm going to second that recommendation. It looks kinda interesting; can you tell us more about it?
Title: Re: Struggling with game project
Post by: BrigadeGeneral on October 25, 2015, 08:23:44 am
As board game, this whole Idea is BAD. I mean, I have it - it's great to play with friends, but there are few obstacles, if this would be final product: 1) space - game requires BIG room, because there are two big maps (only Europe is playable at this moment) and there are boards to maintain empire, which need a desk to hold it. 2) It requires at least two players (figures...:) ), and takes a lot of time. I really don't think there would be demand on such board game. 3) costs... even If I would make it smaller in size, there is already over 3000 elements for 8 players (8 empires), and costs would be just huge afaik.


About this game. Well..., there are few innovations comparing to other in its genre: First of all, players can rule entire world, because there are 27 countries to play. Also, in 1 game can participate at max 560 players, and they have full campaign: real time battles with armies up to 300000 people, general's carrer, each player has big influence in empire growth. Most country has it's unique units. Also, for multiplayer mode, I have created 4 different types of games for short battles, where 20 players can fight at one time. And this game will have very unique singleplayer mode where player can either fight all battles himself, or use artifical generals and order them various things, like cooperative attacks, which may lead to bigest battles ever created in PC games.

I would really start a Kickstarter campaign, but firstly I need to let people know about this project and then try to arrange some funding to start works on this.

Thanks for replies and help!

This how this game looks unfolded:

(http://naforum.zapodaj.net/thumbs/53a40028ef21.jpg) (http://naforum.zapodaj.net/53a40028ef21.jpg.html)

As you see, takes 1 room to hold it.
Title: Re: Struggling with game project
Post by: strawberry-wine on October 25, 2015, 05:59:35 pm
That is really an incredible project you've made. Your friends who get to play it are very lucky.

Here's my opinion on your reasons about why this could not be a board game .

First, it does seem to me that you could build this game on a much smaller scale (though it is hard to tell scale from these photos). It might give the game a different scale than you're used to, but the increase in portability would be worth it. It is worth exploring anyway, because if you have a portable prototype to show it will help with pitching both to board game and video game companies.

Second, there is actually a substantial market for board games that require 2+ players and several hours to play (https://boardgamegeek.com/geeklist/58900/life-too-short-longest-boardgames-playing-time). So that is no obstacle for realizing this as a board game.

Third, there do seem to be a lot of components, and that would definitely be a sticking point. However, it's also a sticking point for realizing it as a video game. The more unique components, the more complicated the programming task becomes and the more art that needs to be made, and the higher the price for making the game.

Your most urgent task if you want to bring this game to market, whether you go with board or video game, will be to optimize the game such that you have less components. Or at least, make it so that you have a 'lite' version of the game with the least amount of components needed to make it playable, fun, and affordable to make. If you DO get more money for it, you can add in the rest of the components.

I will make an additional point on price. 70,000 USD seems way too cheap to be making a video game of this size. I don't know what companies you've communicated with, but an online multiplayer game this complex would probably cost at very bare minimum 500,000 USD for a company to make (and even then I would think the quality would suffer). Maybe I'm mistaken and the 70,000 is not meant for the whole game?

At any rate, board games have an advantage here, which is that they are cheaper to crowdfund successfully. You have to do a lot of research and a lot of networking to make it happen, but that's the same as with video games.

My recommendation would be, reduce the game as much as you can to its core essence, both components and rules-wise. Playtest rigorously with your friends and local gaming groups. Make a print-and-play version and get feedback from folks on the internet. Attend some board game conferences and pitch it to publishers.
Title: Re: Struggling with game project
Post by: BrigadeGeneral on October 26, 2015, 02:30:25 am
Game has low complexity - ammount of used figurines in board game is because each country need to have at least 80 units, which creates demand for over 800 pawns, then for over 1200 unit shields... thats why board game is so complicated :) Basicly, on PC game, there are 22 graphics to be made (some you can see already on my website, along with concept graphics - I am still learning, doing small steps each time). 70k USD is ammount needed to actually make game playable and almost ready - w/o marketing.

On the other side, I didn't realized there is big scene for board games like this.  :D After all, it is playable, great game, but as PC product... it would be much, much better.

Title: Re: Struggling with game project
Post by: Reelya on October 26, 2015, 02:47:11 am
If you make it a PC game, I think you'd need to think about what elements make this different to e.g. Paradox games (Europa Universalis IV, Hearts of Iron III, etc) and games in the Total War series. Those will be your big competitors, along with things like the Crusader Kings series, but I haven't really played that. So you need to research what the big selling points for those series are, then make sure you focus on some aspect that's not common to all of them.

Europa Universalis IV for example can handle multiplayer up to 32 players (http://www.eu4wiki.com/Multiplayer), but this is only viable on a LAN. And of course, getting 32 people together who own Europa Universalis IV in the first place is only possible because it's a popular and well-known series. Over the internet, however the practical limit for Europa Universalis IV is about 12 players, due to lag. True MMOs can be much bigger, but only due to many powerful dedicated servers running full time. So that's probably not a viable thing for your game. Realistic limits for an independent realtime wargame based on local servers would be 8-12 players probably. Which is not all that different from the practical limits for a comparable boardgame. So if you optimize your boardgame version for a maximum of 8 players, that will translate to a realistic maximum for online play too.

If you have, as you say, up to 560 players working together in countries, then this is starting to sound more like an MMO than it is a regular PC game. You'd need dedicated servers and you'd need to work out persistent worlds. Getting large numbers of people together for a casual realtime gaming session doesn't sound like something that will work. So, it's great to imagine 500+ players playing a PC-based wargame, but you need to iron out significant connection issues, and conceptualize what a "game session" would actually be like, what happens if someone's connection drops out, etc etc.
Title: Re: Struggling with game project
Post by: Reelya on October 26, 2015, 03:01:54 am
BTW, for the boardgame idea, work on speeding up turns as much as possible. Wherever there's a calculation that needs to be made, make cards with the values pre-calculated, and tables for anything you need to know. Each player would get the same set of cards.

Also, wherever possible, replace components with playing cards. Printing custom stacks of cards is much cheaper than making diverse parts, and has lower labor costs for assembling the sets. Hell, you can really cheaply sell expansion packs with more rules or even new factions, if you make it so that as much of the rules are actually on the cards as possible.
Title: Re: Struggling with game project
Post by: BrigadeGeneral on October 26, 2015, 06:06:51 am
Reelya :) Thanks for advice, but...

Board game is speeded up to the MAX. If 12 players can do a turn (w/o battles) within 30 seconds, I think I achived my goal. Even with battles on tactical maps (with big armies), turn will consume around 10 minutes at top. I should mention, that - instead of cards, I have made chart with 1044 calculations and friend of mine wrote program, which helps calulates single unit fight outcome. I asure you, I worked on this over 14 years, made 10 total versions of this game, took me 6 years to solve all internet issues, including player dropped, not being able to play, ect. Last 11 months I was doing around 250 various tests, with friends, to simulate internet enviroment and all possible behaviors that came to our minds.

As it goes to be a competitor to EUVI, TW series and CKII (this one I know less): for sure at graphic level I can not compete with TW, because game desing doesn't include 3d models of armies (man, particular): but vast possibilities and unique type of game play could (I hope!) make it up, along with some fine art graphics and great climax of the game, both in multi and single player (which is, again, unique to this genre afaik).

 game would look like... this:

(http://naforum.zapodaj.net/thumbs/b37086a0d8c7.jpg) (http://naforum.zapodaj.net/b37086a0d8c7.jpg.html)

(http://naforum.zapodaj.net/thumbs/630c81f3a113.jpg) (http://naforum.zapodaj.net/630c81f3a113.jpg.html)

(http://naforum.zapodaj.net/thumbs/a1329a1b1390.jpg) (http://naforum.zapodaj.net/a1329a1b1390.jpg.html)

As you see, there is not much 3d, except world map. Lag issue was great solved in FOnline, where 250 palyers can play at one time and single server can handle it - based on my experience with net code (which is very small, but still is) my game would use same bandwitch, or a bit lesser.

Game session, when it comes to the BIG internet game would look like this (I have few versions ready to be made, but it all depends on playerbase and actually what they would preffer): Session is 24/7, lasts around 10-16 days (for 1 game). Dedicated game is running all time, but real turns, where players can do all actions will take place within 2 hours window (minimum turn rate= 6, maximum, 20 turns). All time beyond this window is negotiations, charts viewing, wargaming with tactical battles (tests, lessons, competetition ect - there is plenty things to do, actually...). Time of window and all details can vary, like I said, depends on what players want and how it will suit them.

Minimum playerbase for BIG game is around 30-40 to make it smooth, but it could run with just 8 players w/o problem (again, I developed this system more then 6 years strictly as internet game, made 4 systems for that, which - as for this day - are unique in any way, and I am aware of that - but its hard to explain all without giving them "away", if you know what I mean).

I believe it could compete with most games at gaming level, but I might be wrong - I am an... old date, and what I like may be different for younger players. Such discussion can reweal me being wrong about my project, or can make me think I am going the right path.
Title: Re: Struggling with game project
Post by: Thief^ on October 26, 2015, 06:21:46 am
On the topic of doing it as a boardgame:

I printed a prototype boardgame through thegamecrafter.com (http://thegamecrafter.com). It's a print-on-demand service, so you can't go too custom and it's pricier than a proper printer per unit, but you don't pay setup costs so for single runs it's pretty good.

It can also help you work out what you actually need component-wise, for when you want to submit it to an actual printer (if you do).
Title: Re: Struggling with game project
Post by: Reelya on October 26, 2015, 06:29:10 am
You see, that's the thing, I don't really see that there would be much call for a grand strategic game that takes two weeks and you need to log in every 2 hours to play a turn. This would not fit with most peoples schedules - unless they're unemployed. And even then you're impacting on the sleep arrangements of your players which doesn't create a good ongoing experience. Some strategy MMOs get away with this kind of scheduling, because there's the promise of permanent rewards in the game and the player has a previous time-investment keeping them there. But if such a game "resets" every two weeks then most people will use that as an excuse to stop playing if it was impacting their other activities or sleep arrangements.

You need to consider the life/work situation of your players. And that your players will re-assess their time commitment after each round ends. It's important to grow your core playerbase as you go, and anything too time consuming / time demanding that's not an actual MMO with permanence is going to discourage people from becoming regular players.
Title: Re: Struggling with game project
Post by: Il Palazzo on October 26, 2015, 06:33:10 am
I've got nothing constructive to add, just wanted to moan about using the revolutionary tricolore for the French flag in a pre-revolutionary period. *Moan*
Title: Re: Struggling with game project
Post by: BrigadeGeneral on October 26, 2015, 06:41:30 am
Reelya - I am aware of that. That is one of options, actually. Besides then that, BIG game feature is one of thing it holds. Of course, there are rewards designed for players which will be usefull in single and multiplayer game (ranks, points, titles and more). In the end, the playerbase would show me, which way to chose and which is bestest (got 5 different sets prepared).

Il Palazzo - Yep, you are right, I just took flag I had from older version of game and reused it.
Title: Re: Struggling with game project
Post by: Nick K on October 26, 2015, 12:07:00 pm
Hi, on reading your post, I have to say - this is not a project I'd back.
A few key points:

- Who is this studio that you plan to hire to make it? What's their track record making games? You leave a lot of information very vague, but anonymity does not go well with requests for money. If you plan to ask for money then you will need to release things like your real-life identity and exactly who the developers you plan to hire are.
- What's your experience making software? If the answer is "none", then this would be an extremely high-risk project for backers. Lots of kickstarters fail or end up releasing disappointing games even when they involve people who have experience making games.
- $70k is quite low for any but the simplest game. Over here a decent programmer would get a base salary of at least £30k/year or about $45k in dollars. Most games take much more than one programmer-year and I assume this studio would plan to be making profit as well. Indie kickstarters are often cheap because the person making the kickstarter is the programmer, so they get their time, which is the main expense, for free. This isn't the case for you.
- The studio get all their payment in advance and presumably don't get a cut of the profits? So, what's their incentive to make an actual high-quality product rather than just shovelling out a crappy, poorly-designed, bug-ridden mess?
- What's the plan for post-release bug-fixing? Go back to the same studio and re-negotiate terms?
- Venture capital? Seriously? Statements like "Venture capital companies are interested" are hard to take seriously.
- Massive multiplayer for a complicated strategy game? Doesn't fill me with too much confidence.
- Singleplayer version... okay, but this seems to assume you have decent AI. AI is a problem for big game studios with full time expert staff working on it for years. All this for $70k? I can't help but feel that this studio is planning to take you for a ride.
- Your original post says you're revolutionize singleplayer strategy games, but then it turns out that this is focused on multiplayer? You'll need to set up and run servers? The more I read, the more I feel that this project is so absurdly over-ambitious that it's doomed to failure.
- You've spent 13 years on the boardgame. This does not fill me with confidence that you can release a computer game in a timely fashion.
- You aren't a programmer, so why spend 13 years making a boardgame prototype for a computer game? You can learn to program in a few years. You can learn to program well in less than ten.
- "definitely change the genre". Hmmm, this sort of grandiose claim also does not fill me with confidence
- "vast possibilities and unique type of game play ". You make a lot of statements like this, but I don't see any concrete examples of how your gameplay is so great and unique.
- "In the end, the playerbase would show me, which way to chose and which is bestest (got 5 different sets prepared).". First of all, you will not raise money with English like that. Either you need someone to sort it out, or you should be fundraising in your native language. Secondly, you now plan to make 5 versions (for $70k each?) and let the playerbase choose? You know that they won't have an idea which is "bestest" until they've actually played all of them.
- "What you would do, in order to obtain funding for unique project, without ability to create gameplay or demo version?" My answer: I wouldn't do it. Because attempts to raise funding from something without any content to show tend to look very much like scams.
- Even if you aren't a scammer, your posts make me think that this game is over-ambitious. Without experience making even simple computer games, attempting to produce a large and complex one will have a very high chance of failure.

Here's my advice, assuming this is on the level and not a scam:
Build and release a demo of your game before trying to raise money. The purpose of this demo is to showcase the core gameplay, not to provide an example of the finished product. If you can't produce a simple demo without funding, then I am not confident that you can produce a quality full game with it. Either do it yourself, or find someone who'll shove out an ultra-simple version for cheap. Use shortcuts like roguelike-style graphics or free open-source content to keep the cost down. Then put your demo online and see how it's received.

If for some reason (why??) this is genuinely impossible, then get some friends together and actually record yourselves playing the boardgame. Put it on youtube - there are lots of let's plays of boardgames there. That way people can see whether or not your game is actually special and amazing.
Title: Re: Struggling with game project
Post by: BrigadeGeneral on October 26, 2015, 01:59:36 pm
Wow, thakns Nick K for contribute to this thread!

@1: I am not starting CF campaing yet, thus I don't reveal any information about studio behind it.
@2: Yes, none tbh. I worked with few games, but not as a programmer.
@3: For my country 70k USD is like 300k in US. That may be difference. Wages, even programmist are very profitable job, is still much cheaper then in US. Also, there are some funds of my own I have already.
@4: I am not "that" deep into arrangement with studio, but major point of cooperation is they do a product according to a specifcation. Of course, I would love to work with some gaming studio, since developement proces is complete, but well, I haven't ask any foreign studio (maybe I should try, hmmm).
@5: Maybe I am idealist, but I would like to give players game BUG free. I know it's not possible. Major point of contract would be to keep game going after relase. It's all depends on what conditoins we would cooperate. Again, I am not starting CF yet, thats why there is room to polish things.
@6 About CV line: it sound silly, but it was like this, actulally.
@7 I should add: if finished as I wish... but well, major thing in this game definately would be great MP game. But I would like to have single player and AI. This is, when it comes to budged - full product may be harder and more expensive to make, but again, I am not starting CF campaign and nothing is set in stone.
@8 Yes, I am aware of that.
@9 Oh, right. But how I would know this project will wind up this much I will have a fully scaled, playable, good game? At the time I knew it, back in 2006, I was almost married, with 2 works on my head and no time to anything. :D
@10 Well, I believe it could give fresh light on this genre :)
@11 My english is bad. I know - don't remind me of that :p I will gladly accept any help in that field BEFORE I will ask for any money. And, because differences betwean versions are cheap to implement even at programming level (it was consulted with 3 programmers). Small changes can make huge difference. Besides, there is tool named POOL, where players can show they thoughts. And a dialogue, like forums. What we do now :)
@12 Perhaps I should make dedicated topic with all details. This one was not to talk about game, but rather to find tips to help me. Of course, all talk is good!
@13 I thought about it aswell. Thanks.
@14 game is not THAT complex. It has unique sets of solutions rather then complexity (that a programmer words - not mine!).


@Advice: it's what I am trying to do, to have some demo working to show aswell as good YT video.

Once again I thank you for your time and effort.
Title: Re: Struggling with game project
Post by: imacds on October 26, 2015, 11:36:30 pm
To start off, I would like to say cześć (hello). Nice to see more Polish peoples on the forum.  ;)

From what you showed of the board and pieces, I would say the game is really cool looking. I do not want to give any speculative suggestions on the game, since details have not been released, but the parts look nice. I feel, talking about the future video game, we have forgotten the fact you have a fully made, large board-game version of your game completed.

The number one suggestion in my opinion, which I feel is so important I want to make it stand out from the other list, is to get some sort of showcase of this game up on the internet somewhere. Since you have a gorgeous fully functioning board game, don't wait for a computer demo. I would recommend putting up an edited video on YouTube of the game being played which illustrates some of the game-play you find so revolutionary about this game. Mount a camera so it looks down on the map and play the game in an interesting scenario a bit. Edit the video to speed things up, keep it zoomed in on and showing the "action", add some commentary (either speech or text depending on how good your English is) but keep it to a minimum. I assume you mainly speak Polish, since that is what language the board is made in, so I recommend trying to simply demonstrate how your game works (you said yourself that the rules are rather simple) rather than explaining everything in complicated detail. The board looks very well made; there is a niche market for expensive board games as well as these world strategy video games.

For the Future:

I'm personally excited to see where this goes. It would be nice if your project had a more personal space for discourse (like even YouTube comments) rather than hijacking a DF blog. :)
Title: Re: Struggling with game project
Post by: BrigadeGeneral on October 27, 2015, 02:40:07 am
Thanks, imacds!

I have idea of video for board game, in order to show some features. Also, my site has a little icon on top for english language and most news/features are wrriten in English aswell (just need to klick on link in news). When it comes to the graphics, I am still working on it, but it's not that I will be able to do them all :). Once again, thanks!
Title: Re: Struggling with game project
Post by: Insanegame27 on November 27, 2015, 05:00:56 am
There are a few things I noticed.


1: WHOLLY SHIT THIS GAME LOOKS AMAZING


2: You need someone to spellcheck. Not trying to be mean or anything but with the spoilered post before... Allied is spelled 'Allied' not 'Alied'
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
So yeah, I would be down with correcting any and all spelling and grammar errors in your game if you want, and I would do it for free (or some kind of moderator privilege for online games or whatnot or at the very least a spot in the credits)


This game is very nice looking. One thing I would change is the hella-large watermark covering most of the screen.

EDIT: You also said you're not a programmer. I believe I could help a little bit with that too. I know adequate Actionscript to make some niceish games (I have one stalled project I have where I have been offered money for what I have of the game so far, if that's worth anything) with flash and I also know some Javascript and Python. At the moment I am most fluent in Actionscript (AKA flash), followed by five years of Python experience and then Javascript
Title: Re: Struggling with game project
Post by: BrigadeGeneral on November 30, 2015, 04:30:51 pm
Thanks, Insanegame27 for your input.

ad 1: well, I like what you said, but it could be better. I am trying hard, but I still lack of some skills and experience.
ad 2: Yup, that was omission. I use e-dictionary before I use English language, and sometimes such bugs can still appear. Shame on me.

As for now, there are going two major things with this project. Firstly, I was on board game exhibition (fantasy convent) and I managed to show my board game to larger audience - I was really shocked how good they received it - for whole event we spend every single minute on playing with other people and, actually, there was brief moment they were waiting in line to play it. For a creator, there can not be better compliment. I am very pleased and even more motivated to push my work harder in order to get things done. As a result, I started to create professional board game: with new graphics, pawns, map, and other details. I think, if people want to play it, they need to get best, not some home made board game, but truly nice looking one. This stage should be completed within month or bit later.

Secondly, I am in talks with 2 major investors (1 private, 1 company) I can't throw any details yet, but once things will be more clear, I will announce it through FB and our webpage. I hope this will be major breakthrough to this project.

Any help is ALWAYS Welcome, and it will be appreciated, Insanegame27 - as for now, all things (except game program for battles) I made myself, and its been now straight 3 years, 5-10 hours a day I am working on this version of game - I am not exhausted, hell no, but I would like get a little help in fields I will not be able to enhance my skills. Write me a PM, please, and we can talk about your contribution to the game and what I can offer to you.


Regards,
Jaroslaw
Title: Re: Struggling with game project
Post by: Bohandas on December 01, 2015, 02:58:48 pm
Kickstarter
Title: Re: Struggling with game project
Post by: Reelya on December 01, 2015, 09:02:31 pm
No, i think you're much better off having a working prototype / trailer video before you even think about hitting kickstarter. And, no, a boardgame is not a sufficient demo of a video game concept. It's a sufficient demo of a boardgame you want to publish.

When you kickstarter a product that's still in early development (e.g. before a PC adaptation even exists) you end up with a lot of skeptics, critics and possibly accusations of being an outright scam. Even if your survive that and get early investors, you then have a lot of early-days investors who will project their own imagination onto what the game will become, rather than having realistic expectations based on demos and trailers. Those investors will be making demands, and probably getting pissed off when your game isn't delivered in a time frame to their liking, or the game doesn't end up looking like what they imagined. Generally, you want to save Kickstarter or Steam Greenlight for the final 6 months of polish or some such when you already have your working game mechanics on PC and you just need to polish the art assets etc.

There's also an issue with hype fatique. Many people who ok a Kickstarter or Greenlight project barely remember signing up to it if the project takes a long time to deliver. You end up with a problem where people gradually lose interest. Whereas, if there is a short window from announcement to delivery, everyone is hyped at the same time, then you get decent sales in a short time period, pushing your game up the charts, which generates additional media coverage and sales. If it's 2-3 years from announcement to delivery for an indie game then basically you're going to see a steady trickle of sales instead of an avalanche, and no spike in the charts which would get your more exposure. Basically, you want everyone talking about your game at the same time, to sustain interest. And you want the maximum amount of that talk to generate sales: i.e. you want the hype to happen when you have something to sell. And that means not boring people with a long drawn out "coming soon" thing.

Things like Star Citizen show some possible pitfalls of too much early exposure. While the money has been great, they've received unfair criticism of "taking too long" and "spending too much money" ($96 million so far). GTA V took 5 years in development and spent $265 million, and they worked on it for three years before even announcing that they were developing it. The only difference is that with Star Citizen people are seeing the entire development process for a $100 million dollar budget AAA game from inception to delivery, when usually games are pretty much locked down with gorgeous demos before they even tell you they exist.

Generally, I think it's a neat looking game, but you have to work on market differentiation. People have Hearts of Iron, Europa Universalis, the Total War series of games, Mount and Blade, etc etc. You're going to have to convince people that your game is fresh enough that they should spend time playing that rather than the existing highly polished altenatives that already have a substantial player base. A cheaply made or amateurish PC adaptation of your game to PC probably isn't going to garner much widespread interest, just being realistic here.
Title: Re: Struggling with game project
Post by: BrigadeGeneral on December 02, 2015, 03:15:31 am
O.o Reelya - thats a lot of input.

On most things, I am aware you wrote here. I am a player myself - and I saw products being in developement for far too long (I am Anarchy Online player - we know what "soon" means, hehe). There is no way I will even think of kickstarter at this moment, where only board game is ready 100% and I have only concept graphics of PC game to show. Thats why, firstly, I think working battle demo, with 6-10 players at one time would be best to show. And board game should be aviable in 2-3 months for anyone, who wants to see tactical battle.
Title: Re: Struggling with game project
Post by: BrigadeGeneral on December 11, 2015, 06:54:36 am
Few photos from board version of tactical battle:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Struggling with game project
Post by: My Name is Immaterial on December 11, 2015, 06:58:06 am
It looks fancy.
Title: Re: Struggling with game project
Post by: Purple Gorilla on December 12, 2015, 02:05:58 pm
As you want to found an own corporation, with you as the boss, it is important to handle the burocracy :

* Check, if you need some formal education for making a game. For every Job there is a formal education, and without it you get into trouble with guilds and consumerists. In the worst case, you can't do it at all, and otherwise, you must have to pay somebody with formal education to check your work, and confirm, that it reaches all standarts (and there are many standarts :-)). I am not sure, if there are any proper jobs related to making a game, but there are definitly some consumerist laws, that demand some things like recycling paper or non "toxic" hippie-paint to be used, or consumerist manuals telling consumers not to swallow plastic figurines and you may need proper craftsmen to verify that all.
* Games, whether video or board are toys, and toys must be censored. You might think now, there is nothing hot with your game, but the problems is not the censorship itself, the problem is the cost for the censorship. To be able to sell the game to children, you have to pay several thousand euros, to have it censored, and if it is not censored, vendors must verify the age of everybody, who tries buying, that is too much efford for most. Any non-censored media is treated like films like "the 120 days of Sodom" or "Cannibal holocaust", no matter how harmless it is.
* Interlectual property is a harsh bitch, especially if TTIP comes. If your small business does publish anything, expect to get sued by some mega-corporation or rogue lawyer for copyright infridgement. It doesn't matter, if you commited it or not (probably not), but the problem is, that they have more money for a court case, and you might have to surrender, because you cannot pay the ongoing lawsuit anymore even if the law is on your side. In such situations, the police might help you, but that doesn't work always.

In general, you are legally on thin ice, if you found a business or publish anything as a layman. The glory days there iron-hard assembler programmers made videogames as lone wolves are over, and the whole business is now in the hands of mega-corporations doing alienated work.
Title: Re: Struggling with game project
Post by: Graknorke on December 12, 2015, 05:23:34 pm
Quote from: Purple Gorilla on December 12, 2015, 02:05:58 pm
To be able to sell the game to children, you have to pay several thousand euros, to have it censored, and if it is not censored, vendors must verify the age of everybody, who tries buying, that is too much efford for most. Any non-censored media is treated like films like "the 120 days of Sodom" or "Cannibal holocaust", no matter how harmless it is.
Are you sure of that one? Pretty sure that shops can sell unrated things if they like, regardless of who to. It's just that most don't because they'd have the Concerned Parents Brigade on them faster than you could say "it's just a prank".
Title: Re: Struggling with game project
Post by: Purple Gorilla on December 16, 2015, 03:54:13 pm
OK, I did some research :
* Poland uses the European PEGI rating for video games. Compared to the German FSK, vendors can still sell it to children who are too young, but the rating seems to be mandatory (what is a problem), as opposed to FSK there FSK18 is equal to unrated. There is no information about the treatment of unrated things.
* There is no whitelist for board-games, so this should be possible without problems. You might still need a EAN number for big vendors, but EAN numbers are much cheaper than rating. Selling it yourself or over geeky shopkeepers who sell dungeons and dragons equipment should even be possible without an EAN number.
Title: Re: Struggling with game project
Post by: BrigadeGeneral on December 21, 2015, 02:48:34 pm
afaik, here, in Poland, we don't need ratings for board games. Publisher can use his own rating.

As for PC game, I dont know if indie need those. Definately any major releases need those.

So far I managed to get 1 investor and collect myself around 30k USD. Things are moving slowly forward. Also, I have got 2 invites to showrooms with my board games in upcoming months :)