In my fort, my base is located at the base of a canyon, with high cliffs surrounding it. And one day a goblin siege came in, from those upper cliffs, and basically ,they rained down hell on my dwarves, killing many. For a long time i couldnt figure out why everyone was cancelling their job due to "so-and-so goblin archer" since there was no one outside our walls on the base ground level of our home. Then i looked up a few z levels and saw 16 goblins sitting up there, and occasionally a little bolt would fly out from one of them, and land down at our base.
It was kind of funny at one point because my last marksdwarf kept firing the same bolt back up to the goblins, then they would fire it back, and he would pick it up and fire it back again.
Then it got uber gay when the game crashed and i wasted several hours of work.........
Has anyone else every experienced multi z level skirmishes like this?
quote:
Originally posted by ColonelTEE3:
<STRONG>
Has anyone else every experienced multi z level skirmishes like this?</STRONG>
In the succession game I'm playing, we were constantly getting interrupted by gators and crocs. I drafted one guy and gave him a crossbow. He was hitting animals from four levels above much better than I expected. He took care of three or four with (I think) one stack of bolts.
On a different note, did you say "uber gay"? I mean, really?
Who needs traps!
Yeah, it's kinda handy. I've had kobold thieves unmask themselves at the top of my towers thinking they are safe when a bolt flies out of nowhere and skewers them. I think it goes a little something like this:
High upon the dwarven skyscraper, the kobold thief sneaks out of the shadows and revels in his petty gains.
Down below on the bustling city streets, a marksdwarf stops in his tracks.
"I CAN SENSE YOUR KI!!!"
He then shoots a bolt into the sky, where it lands, 5 z-levels up, directly on the kobold's head.
As for the tower idea; how is that a better defense? If high ground gives no relative cover, its basically like looking through a fortified wall that the goblins can also fire back at you from. Or have you not had any goblin archer / crossbow men attacks yet?
quote:
Originally posted by ColonelTEE3:
<STRONG>Yes i felt it necesary to say uber gay to help emphasize how annoying it was that i lost 3 hours of work for nothing.As for the tower idea; how is that a better defense? If high ground gives no relative cover, its basically like looking through a fortified wall that the goblins can also fire back at you from. Or have you not had any goblin archer / crossbow men attacks yet?</STRONG>
it gives a distance for the fortification, which means that the fortifications cant be used from the outside shooting in.Thus an advantage for those in the tower, whom have no problem shooting out.
quote:
Originally posted by ColonelTEE3:
<STRONG>Then it got uber gay when the game crashed and i wasted several hours of work.........
</STRONG>
Okay, First off, Dwarf Fortress, as far as I know, has no sexual preference, nor does dwarf fortress crashing, have any sexual preference.
/Rant On
Usually, I don't rant, but bear with me, because I keep seeing this type of thing all over. Note One, this is directly aimed at ColonelTEE3, but feel free to read on anyways. Note Two, this has nothing to do with the thread, so, feel free to disregard it as senseless ranting.
Okay, first off, what the hell, and second off, what the hell. ^_^
Okay, I see the term 'gay' used in the context that ColonelTEE3 just used it in. Most often in places such as Youtube, or GameFaqs, or whatever I feel like browsing and lurking behind.
It bugs me to no extent, so, while this is a reply to ColonelTEE3, I think its more justifying to say that its to get it off my chest, which is what I guess a rant is, eh?
Alright, first off, realize what 'curse' or 'cuss' words you are using, and then make sure to know what they mean. Gay, without pulling out the dictionary means two things.
Merry, Joyous, Happy. EG: He was very gay while wearing his new green tunic, or slang for homosexual.
Given the context, I severely fucking doubt you meant 'Merry, Joyous, Happy'. Which leads me to believe that you were calling what just happened homosexual. Which, as I previously pointed out, Dwarf Fortress, despite how much I would love for it to become alive, it is not, and thus, for all sake and mannerisms of this rant, is incapable of having a sexual preference. Specifically, the action of it crashing is even less likely of having a sexual preference, even if Dwarf Fortress was indeed alive when it crashed.
If you would like to show your displeasure with it crashing, say 'that was fucked up', 'that was messed up', 'SHIT!', 'Motherfucker!', or 'That bitch be crazy' (threw that one in for flavor), all of those work.
But 'gay' does not work. I am a transgender female, and while I personally am not 'gay' (yet...maybe...I don't know, I'm more bisexual than anything), I do have quite a many homosexual friends. So by using gay in the context of your displeasure, its like bitch slapping every one of my friends, and the homosexual community at large. Regardless of how you feel about homosexuality, that is wrong. Very fucking wrong.
You know, I have never heard one of my gay friends, ever, get pissed at something and then say 'you know, that shit was so fucking straight it wasn't even funny'
And to add onto ALL of that, you used one of my favorite words, Über. Thats like personally pulling out the baby powder, saying 'bitch, get over here', bitch slapping me, and then saying 'wheres mah money?'.
Thats not cool.
Thats so fucking not cool.
I would be very appreciative if you took the appropriate prevention measures in the future and be sure to use more desensitized words such as 'fuck', 'bitch', 'shit', and so on. Thank you for your time.
/Rant end.
As per ontopic, My marksman (at least since version E) have always seemed to shoot through Z Levels, albeit with extreme inaccuracy. My wardogs had an easier time killing eagles than my marksman. Maybe its been changed in G.
Kayla
Edit: As some of my posts tend to do, that probably came out as really mean or arrogant. I'm personally not a mean person, although I may be arrogant, thats up to other people decide. My ranting isn't supposed to sound like an assault, but more of an enlightenment to help dissolve what I feel and see as ignorance. Take that however you will.
[ January 28, 2008: Message edited by: Kayla ]
quote:
Originally posted by Quift:
<STRONG>the fortifications cant be used from the outside shooting in</STRONG>
The wiki states shooting from outside is possible, yet it is to verify :
quote:
<STRONG>After completion, marksdwarves, ballistas, and even catapults will be able to fire through the fortifications. However, enemy ranged attackers can attack you from either side of the fortification, no matter which side was fortified. Units that attack without being adjacent to the fortification must make a skill check, or else the projectile will be blocked.</STRONG>
(from the Fortification page of the wiki)
Besides, multi-level shooting is really cool. Some goblins on the border of the moat and my marksdwarves on top of a cliff have had an argument with arrows and bolts. It was quite a mess to clean up. :D
You may - or may not - be interested to learn that marksdwarves cannot shoot at fish. No inuit-style harpoon fishing...
[ January 28, 2008: Message edited by: Maître Smaug Capello ]
Anyway, how exactly do fortifications work? Because I seem to remember dwarves getting shot from the outside through fortification. I'm guessing that there's a chance that the shot will go through the fortification and it decreases with distance. Or does it just go through if the shooter is next to the fortification?
[ January 28, 2008: Message edited by: DJ ]
as much as this sucks, i think now that most people use it not as an assault to homosexuality, but merely as slang. but a lot of words evolve like this. sorry i don't know really why i said this, simply thought i'd provide another point of view...
also, is there and advantage to building guard towers? i was going to make a "castle" fort, with 4 towers and a keep for the nobles, but if they don't really do much ill just abandon the rather boring flat plain, and go build a more tradititonal fort in the magma vent nearby..
Ontopic, I always try and surround my fortresses with fortifications on top of moated walls, and patrolling marksdwarves. Whether or not being at a higher z-level gives an advantage, it's just very cool to imagine, and it also makes sense from a loyout point of view - you don't need to obstruct your main entrance with a sentry post when you can cover the approach with a massive amount of firepower.
My current outpost, being a cliff-fortress, has a single main entrance point. Over the entrance point are eight fortification cut into the cliff, with a massive ammo store, craftsdwarves workshops, and archery target rooms behind. I have eight elite marksdwarves set to station behind one fortification each, normally in two shifts of four, with the option to bring all of them on duty for seiges. So far, all the goblin attacks have been utterly slaughtered, with my only casualties a few masons on road-building duties.
You are just looking in the wrong dictionaries.
Fortifications are cool whether they're functional or not. I just finished a little fort at my entrance with a barracks and archery range.
code:
Level 1:
≈≈≈≈≈≈≈≈≈≈≈≈≈≈≈≈≈≈≈
≈╔════════╦══════╗≈
≈║.,.,,,.,║=//[[[║≈
≈║,.,..,,.║++++++║≈
≈║,,,▼..,.║++++++║≈
≈║...▼,,,,┼++++♫+║≈
≈║,,.▼,,.,║++++++║≈
≈║...,,,..║ō+++<+║≈
≈║,.,,..,.║++++++║≈
≈╚════O╔═╗╚══════╝≈
≈≈≈≈≈≈≈╚═╝≈≈≈≈≈≈≈≈≈Level: 2
...................
.╬╬╬╬╬╬╬╬╬╬╬╬╬╬╬╬╬.
.╬+++++++++++++++╬.
.╬+.......+XXXXX+╬.
.╬+.......+++++++╬.
.╬+.......+++++++╬.
.╬+.......+++++++╬.
.╬+.......+++++>+╬.
.╬+++++++++++++++╬.
.╬╬╬╬╬╬╬╬╬╬╬╬╬╬╬╬╬.
...................
[ January 28, 2008: Message edited by: Fenrir ]
For one, dwarves can't walk *through* fortifications, so if you need a wall, barricade, stockade, fortress, etc. with a door. You're going to have to either put your marksdwarf firing positions below the gate or above it.
For two, there's a defensive bonus for your own marksdwarves when they are behind a fortification. What this means is that even if you do take losses, statistically, your losses would be lower so that in an even fight of equal strength and numbers, you will win.
For three, enemy creatures can't walk past fortifications. Which makes your marksdwarves immune to melee units (unless, by some miracle of computer frustration, they decide to throw their weapons at them).
For four. It looks cool and you can't simulate the battle of Helms Deep without fortifications.
Lastly, notice that your dwarves like to jump around when dodging arrows and bolts? Notice sometimes they jump in the wrong direction? A fortification is a good way to give your dwarves room to jump around, just not jump into a group of goblin spearmen.
[offtopic]
While I agree that using the term "gay" as an insult out of context is idiotic, I'm too lazy to attempt to say anything about it since there wouldn't be a point anyway. Yaaaay anonymity!
What I find interesting usually are the kinds of people who dismiss the correcting of said mistakes. It's something like telling a policeman arresting a murderer that he's stupid for caring so much about someone killing someone else. Or a random stranger telling a teacher to screw off for trying to teach another kid how to speak English.
Not that *I* care about it, because I don't want to be the "uber gay" person who cares enough to care about it.[/offtopic]
quote:
Originally posted by umiman:
<STRONG>What I find interesting usually are the kinds of people who dismiss the correcting of said mistakes. It's something like telling a policeman arresting a murderer that he's stupid for caring so much about someone killing someone else. Or a random stranger telling a teacher to screw off for trying to teach another kid how to speak English.</STRONG>
On topic; So, it has definitely been proven that towers protect dwarves from archer fire? Because i still can't think of how the mechanics for archery would change from being at a higher z level with fortifications. Regardless though, I am already making a helms deep-esque defense at my fort. There is one wall already in place, with an opening into my fort, and ontop is a walkway being built, with fortifications that will be on the outside, and some normal walls for them to take cover (incase they need to retreat).
quote:
Originally posted by Fenrir:
<STRONG>
WHAT?! Your comparing this idiotic blather with murder?! I... Urrgh! I'd give you such a rant if this was on topic. Hyper-sensitive *muttering* elvish *grumbles* :mad:</STRONG>
Just joking mate. I was just making a parody of typical forum responses with everyday, typical human responses.
If you stationed a dwarf on a wall like so:
code:
☺╬
══╣
║
▓▓▓▓▓▓▓
code:
☺╬
══╣
║g ←g
▓▓▓▓▓▓▓
code:
# = dwarf's L.O.S.☺╬####
══╣####
║####
▓▓▓▓▓▓▓or
☺╬####
══╣####
║g###
▓▓▓▓▓▓▓or is it
☺╬####
══╣ ###
║g ##
▓▓▓▓▓▓▓
[OT]It's one of those terms that bugs me too, just because college had me convinced that society had moved past using that definition. Just makes me flinch when I'm reminded I'm wrong in the general case.[/OT]
Seriously, my rant probably read different than I intended it to be ..read? (the hell?)
Its not that I was specifically targeting it, or that I was hyper sensitive. It was an combination of lack of sleep (due to...way too many nightmares), and the fact that it is an overly used term in a way that it shouldn't be used. Maybe I just care too much about openness. But when I see terms like gay, being thrown around as to mean something negative, such as 'oh man, that alien just fucking killed me, thats gay', what it does, especially for the lesser intelligent among us, is reinforce the term that 'gay' = 'bad'. Which means people that could be growing up to be open, liberal, and not be completely closed-minded, are growing up to be ignorant, intolerant, and other things.
All that said, that rant was meant to be aimed at the thousands of posts, chat sessions, comments, and other things I read. If I posted one of those everytime I saw something like that, my fingers would be bloody.
Thanks for your choosing your words, it is very much appreciated.
Kayla
PS: Sorry for being so completely offtopic.
Edit: Oh, when I posted my first post, I knew it was going to probably draw some negative attention, but thats what happens.
The reason I decided to post my rant here, instead of some random forum, is because I really care about Dwarf Fortress, and its community, which, isn't regulated, but still has the most intelligent and in general, nice forums I've found. So I thought it to be better posting it here, where it may make a difference to some people, instead of some random comment or forum that I don't care about.
If that makes any sense, you get a cookie!
[ January 28, 2008: Message edited by: Kayla ]
quote:Which I'm sure doesn't include you, amirite? Thank you for using your carefully cultured civility to pass judgment on the thoughts of others. It's a real service and society is better off for it.
especially for the lesser intelligent among us
How about this: the primary source of most or all discrimination, prejudice, insert victimizing term here, is an us vs them mentality on the part of the majority. "You ain't one of us, boy, so we don't like your kind." A huge contributing factor to this is vocabulary. Words (derogatory or not) that mean "just you and not me" or vice versa. The problems will not go away so long as the words exist.
So, to my mind, shifting the focus (particularly any negative connotations) of "gay" from the buttsex to a synonym for "stupid" can only be a good thing. The word's not any nicer, sure, but more importantly the sting is taken away from it. It's no longer a personal attack.
Futhermore, daddy-o, you can't stop the jive from jiving in the first place. It's what jive is. Don't be a turkey, hep cats will rap as cats do rap, and always have. All the ragging in the world ain't gonna pass the bone to them none, so you ain't doing nothing but shadow boxing.
[ January 28, 2008: Message edited by: InquisitiveIdiot ]
[ January 28, 2008: Message edited by: Zonhin ]
[ January 28, 2008: Message edited by: Zonhin ]
As for the previous commenter, I know when I say what I say, it will most likely not influence anyone to change. But thats not going to stop me from trying. Because if no one tries to change anything, then, I think change never happens.
Kayla.
[ January 28, 2008: Message edited by: Zonhin ]
quote:
Originally posted by ColonelTEE3:
<STRONG>I didn't find anything on the wiki clarifying this, and last time i heard, people were still confused about if bolts/arrows could fly down z levels. The answer is yes. If you already knew that, then you can ignore this thread.In my fort, my base is located at the base of a canyon, with high cliffs surrounding it. And one day a goblin siege came in, from those upper cliffs, and basically ,they rained down hell on my dwarves, killing many. For a long time i couldnt figure out why everyone was cancelling their job due to "so-and-so goblin archer" since there was no one outside our walls on the base ground level of our home. Then i looked up a few z levels and saw 16 goblins sitting up there, and occasionally a little bolt would fly out from one of them, and land down at our base.
It was kind of funny at one point because my last marksdwarf kept firing the same bolt back up to the goblins, then they would fire it back, and he would pick it up and fire it back again.
Then it got uber gay when the game crashed and i wasted several hours of work.........
Has anyone else every experienced multi z level skirmishes like this?</STRONG>
quote:
Originally posted by Scorpios:
<STRONG>
On a different note, did you say "uber gay"? I mean, really?</STRONG>
quote:
Originally posted by umiman:
<STRONG>"uber gay"... sigh...
</STRONG>
quote:
Originally posted by Kayla:
<STRONG>Okay, First off, Dwarf Fortress, as far as I know, has no sexual preference, nor does dwarf fortress crashing, have any sexual preference.
/Rant On
Usually, I don't rant, but bear with me, because I keep seeing this type of thing all over. Note One, this is directly aimed at ColonelTEE3, but feel free to read on anyways. Note Two, this has nothing to do with the thread, so, feel free to disregard it as senseless ranting.
Okay, first off, what the hell, and second off, what the hell. ^_^
Okay, I see the term 'gay' used in the context that ColonelTEE3 just used it in. Most often in places such as Youtube, or GameFaqs, or whatever I feel like browsing and lurking behind.
It bugs me to no extent, so, while this is a reply to ColonelTEE3, I think its more justifying to say that its to get it off my chest, which is what I guess a rant is, eh?
Alright, first off, realize what 'curse' or 'cuss' words you are using, and then make sure to know what they mean. Gay, without pulling out the dictionary means two things.
Merry, Joyous, Happy. EG: He was very gay while wearing his new green tunic, or slang for homosexual.
Given the context, I severely fucking doubt you meant 'Merry, Joyous, Happy'. Which leads me to believe that you were calling what just happened homosexual. Which, as I previously pointed out, Dwarf Fortress, despite how much I would love for it to become alive, it is not, and thus, for all sake and mannerisms of this rant, is incapable of having a sexual preference. Specifically, the action of it crashing is even less likely of having a sexual preference, even if Dwarf Fortress was indeed alive when it crashed.
If you would like to show your displeasure with it crashing, say 'that was fucked up', 'that was messed up', 'SHIT!', 'Motherfucker!', or 'That bitch be crazy' (threw that one in for flavor), all of those work.
But 'gay' does not work. I am a transgender female, and while I personally am not 'gay' (yet...maybe...I don't know, I'm more bisexual than anything), I do have quite a many homosexual friends. So by using gay in the context of your displeasure, its like bitch slapping every one of my friends, and the homosexual community at large. Regardless of how you feel about homosexuality, that is wrong. Very fucking wrong.
You know, I have never heard one of my gay friends, ever, get pissed at something and then say 'you know, that shit was so fucking straight it wasn't even funny'
And to add onto ALL of that, you used one of my favorite words, Über. Thats like personally pulling out the baby powder, saying 'bitch, get over here', bitch slapping me, and then saying 'wheres mah money?'.
Thats not cool.
Thats so fucking not cool.
I would be very appreciative if you took the appropriate prevention measures in the future and be sure to use more desensitized words such as 'fuck', 'bitch', 'shit', and so on. Thank you for your time.
/Rant end.
As per ontopic, My marksman (at least since version E) have always seemed to shoot through Z Levels, albeit with extreme inaccuracy. My wardogs had an easier time killing eagles than my marksman. Maybe its been changed in G.
Kayla
Edit: As some of my posts tend to do, that probably came out as really mean or arrogant. I'm personally not a mean person, although I may be arrogant, thats up to other people decide. My ranting isn't supposed to sound like an assault, but more of an enlightenment to help dissolve what I feel and see as ignorance. Take that however you will.
[ January 28, 2008: Message edited by: Kayla ]</STRONG>
quote:
Originally posted by DJ:
<STRONG>Sticks and stones, Kayla. If I always got upset when I read something offensive on the internet (and trust me, I've read things that are FAR more offensive) I'd have a dozen peptic ulcers by now.
[ January 28, 2008: Message edited by: DJ ]</STRONG>
quote:
Originally posted by Kayla:
<STRONG>Okay, offtopic, but heres a rant to the people ranting about my rant. (Kidding ^_^)Seriously, my rant probably read different than I intended it to be ..read? (the hell?)
Its not that I was specifically targeting it, or that I was hyper sensitive. It was an combination of lack of sleep (due to...way too many nightmares), and the fact that it is an overly used term in a way that it shouldn't be used. Maybe I just care too much about openness. But when I see terms like gay, being thrown around as to mean something negative, such as 'oh man, that alien just fucking killed me, thats gay', what it does, especially for the lesser intelligent among us, is reinforce the term that 'gay' = 'bad'. Which means people that could be growing up to be open, liberal, and not be completely closed-minded, are growing up to be ignorant, intolerant, and other things.
All that said, that rant was meant to be aimed at the thousands of posts, chat sessions, comments, and other things I read. If I posted one of those everytime I saw something like that, my fingers would be bloody.
Thanks for your choosing your words, it is very much appreciated.
Kayla
PS: Sorry for being so completely offtopic.
Edit: Oh, when I posted my first post, I knew it was going to probably draw some negative attention, but thats what happens.
The reason I decided to post my rant here, instead of some random forum, is because I really care about Dwarf Fortress, and its community, which, isn't regulated, but still has the most intelligent and in general, nice forums I've found. So I thought it to be better posting it here, where it may make a difference to some people, instead of some random comment or forum that I don't care about.
If that makes any sense, you get a cookie!
[ January 28, 2008: Message edited by: Kayla ]</STRONG>
It's the kind of bad that isn't even funny.
Also Kayla you should shut up.
You are an elitist fag.
Italics by me.
[ January 28, 2008: Message edited by: Zonhin ]
I was wrong.
In all seriousness, lets just stop this right here. No backstabs, no last words, no hatred, and no flame.
Pointing out the fact that he said uber gay and trying to explain to people how that is offensive to you is no way to explain things on the internet. No one listens.
And calling a person an elitist fag is a rather poor show of knowledge.
(I was attempting to insult both sides of the argument, did I succeed?)
I would request a lock of this thread, in an attempt at peacekeeping, but the ACTUAL topic of this thread is important.
I didn't know that the z-level arrow thing had been fixed, so thank you for telling me that. My fortress of, uh, doom might actually work now!
But is it true that there is no reall advantage to heights? or Disadvantage to lows?
Also, am I the only one here who doesn't like building walls of fortifications? I prefer having staggered designs, so that they actually look like arrow slits in between sections of wall.
It may not provide as much area for your marksdwarves to fire from, but it also severely limits the area they can be fired upon.
Two goblin battallions approached my gates, and i had 2 marksdwarves on the wall:
code:()===()XXX()===()
The X's are the fortifications, the === is a straight up wall for them to retreat behind.
They fired down 1 z level at the first battallion, killed 6 of them flawlessly before the other 10 of the first batallion ran away.
Then they moved on to the second group.. where my wall was a bit less consistent, which may have been why things went so horribly. For the second battallion was positioned in the south eastern corner of my wall, where my wall went diagonally from bottom to the north east, and my design for the fortifications were the same except that since it was diagonal, i had problems with fixing the diagonal "holes" that are now accessible (people can walk from one square, to a north eastern, north western, south eastern, or south western square, and can interact with anything in those squares as well, including fire through them).
And so, the goblins rained hell up to my one dwarf firing at them, and killed 8 of his war dog pets (long and different story altogether), and one arrow pierced his iron plate, and mangled his lungs, ontop of making him miserable from his pet slaughter, virtually destroying any chance that my best marksdwarf of 3 would ever fight again.
Basically, i don't think theres any real way to make it so dwarves can fire at goblins without them firing back just as easily, but it might have just been because the wall that we got destroyed at was flawed in design. I am currently building another tower, extending in a different part of my fort, that will raise up high, above the canyons and cliffsides that overlook my city, and hopefully it's basic design will have better results, lest i lose another poor soul to experimentation.
[ January 28, 2008: Message edited by: ColonelTEE3 ]
Anyway, if you actually want to talk about the z-axis, you can use another thread.