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Dwarf Fortress => DF Dwarf Mode Discussion => Topic started by: Insert_Gnome_Here on February 17, 2016, 04:45:06 pm

Title: Dwarven Minecart Cavalry
Post by: Insert_Gnome_Here on February 17, 2016, 04:45:06 pm
To all you people who have complained about dwarves not having cavalry, I present to you this:

(http://i.imgur.com/Vt4UEnZ.png?1)

Unfortunately, I'm only trying it out on a fleeing porcupine as I had no other targets. (That's not to say I didn't try to solve both that problem and the excessive number of bards at the same time
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

At the moment, It's just a square track with rollers and an underground start/stop branch, but if the dwarven roundabout is sucessful, I'll extend it to a grid covering the whole embark. Marksdwarves ride it and fire bolts as they go. It still requires work to make it less incredibly temperamental and reach the break-even in terms of damage to enemies:damage to dwarves ratio.
Title: Re: Dwarven Minecart Cavalry
Post by: BlackMuffin on February 17, 2016, 05:23:24 pm
So are you just relying on the brute force of the minecart to kill things?
Title: Re: Dwarven Minecart Cavalry
Post by: Sanctume on February 17, 2016, 05:26:55 pm
it looks like minecart archers instead of horsebowman
Title: Re: Dwarven Minecart Cavalry
Post by: khearn on February 17, 2016, 05:27:13 pm
He said he has marksdwarves riding the carts. It sounds like it might be a decent way to get them to stop charging into melee, if nothing else.
Title: Re: Dwarven Minecart Cavalry
Post by: omega_dwarf on February 17, 2016, 05:27:53 pm
Quote from: BlackMuffin on February 17, 2016, 05:23:24 pm
So are you just relying on the brute force of the minecart to kill things?

No, it sounds like he's trying to make a deployable, minecart-based Archer squad that would speed to a required position without running away or towards the enemy, shoot for a bit, and return to base. Which is a pretty clever idea that I wholeheartedly approve of.

This reminds me of a small scale version of the connect-the-world-with-minecarts problem/thread. (Or maybe...shall your cavalry go on a crusade somewhere? :P)
Title: Re: Dwarven Minecart Cavalry
Post by: gnidan on February 17, 2016, 07:32:14 pm
OH my oh my oh my.  :o

:D
Title: Re: Dwarven Minecart Cavalry
Post by: khearn on February 17, 2016, 08:34:51 pm
And the windmills to power the rollers will do a fine job of attracting any building destroyers (like trolls) right to your field of fire. Of course, if they manage to take down a windmill or two and your rollers lose power, your cavalry will find themselves stuck out there in the middle of some angry pincushionstrolls.

Hmmm, maybe a more secure power source needs to get built for the production version. :)
Title: Re: Dwarven Minecart Cavalry
Post by: sirdanilot on February 17, 2016, 09:21:20 pm
I would love to see this in action.

I would build the power source in some secure place though, away from the trolls.
Title: Re: Dwarven Minecart Cavalry
Post by: Insert_Gnome_Here on February 18, 2016, 04:36:27 am
It will probably end up being powered by windmills near the rollers, as well as an absurdly large backup array. In my roundabout testing world, I get 4160 power from an 8*12 array.
Title: Re: Dwarven Minecart Cavalry
Post by: quekwoambojish on February 18, 2016, 06:17:33 am
Hah! It's a dwarfy-go-round!

When they run out of ammo, do they still chase after things trying to bash them?

Also, like the ballistas...That's my solution for fey dwarves I know I can't satisfy.
Title: Re: Dwarven Minecart Cavalry
Post by: Sanctume on February 18, 2016, 09:27:59 am
This sounds fun to do, and I'd probably use impulse ramp similar to minecart swimming (http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/v0.34:Swimmer#Minecart_training) except instead of water underground, I'll place the track around the surface wall, just above a 2-z wide moat.
Title: Re: Dwarven Minecart Cavalry
Post by: Insert_Gnome_Here on February 18, 2016, 10:22:43 am
Well well well, What have we here?

(http://i.imgur.com/2FhM3yX.png?1)

I already have one dwarf patrolling in a minecart, but I don't know how many will make it onto the track before things get hairy.

EDIT: It turns out that the cavalry can outrun bolts, but are killed when goblins run onto the track and stop them. Working out how to deploy them in greater numbers may help, as would heavier carts.
Title: Re: Dwarven Minecart Cavalry
Post by: Sanctume on February 18, 2016, 11:09:00 am
That's why you want to elevate the minecart tracks on top of the wall at least 1z high, with 2z and 2-wise dry moat. 
I think the issue will be having multiple carts in the same track, they might just collide with each other, making them stuck like a sitting duck dorf for the invaders. 

Now many 3 tracks stacked on top of the wall for more volume.

how about tracks along fortifications?
Title: Re: Dwarven Minecart Cavalry
Post by: Insert_Gnome_Here on February 18, 2016, 11:17:58 am
I feel like elevating the tracks makes things a little unsporting. OTOH, everyone is dead, so it is not yet game-breakingly effective.
Title: Re: Dwarven Minecart Cavalry
Post by: sirdanilot on February 18, 2016, 11:48:15 am
Some ideas:

- Use lead mine carts (won't gobs just die from a collision with them?)
- Use fortifications as a wall around the track
- Build the track on a 'viaduct' 1z level high. The entrance used by your markswarves to get onto the track should be guarded by melee in any case, to avoid gobs getting onto it. Alternatively make the entrance to your track within your fort (to be honest that should like the most logical idea in any case).

Title: Re: Dwarven Minecart Cavalry
Post by: Sanctume on February 18, 2016, 11:49:52 am
Quote from: Insert_Gnome_Here on February 18, 2016, 11:17:58 am
I feel like elevating the tracks makes things a little unsporting. OTOH, everyone is dead, so it is not yet game-breakingly effective.

In that case, cavalry needs volume, 3 tracks, using platinum or gold minecarts, and maybe 3 more empty ones to maim invaders for the archer riders.
Title: Re: Dwarven Minecart Cavalry
Post by: Insert_Gnome_Here on February 18, 2016, 12:54:16 pm
Turns out Legends Mode is all lies. Tells me 18 goblins attacked and 4 died, when there were clearly about 100 of them, and more than 10 got killed.
Title: Re: Dwarven Minecart Cavalry
Post by: Sanctume on February 18, 2016, 01:30:43 pm
The goblin captain low-balled his failed attack.
Title: Re: Dwarven Minecart Cavalry
Post by: Saiko Kila on February 18, 2016, 04:40:42 pm
Or most of the goblins were hired contractors. They don't count.
Title: Re: Dwarven Minecart Cavalry
Post by: Insert_Gnome_Here on February 18, 2016, 05:35:38 pm
Failed attack? All the dwarves died. We were outnumbered 2:1 with highly inferior troops. It was a massacre.
Title: Re: Dwarven Minecart Cavalry
Post by: Bumber on February 18, 2016, 05:58:50 pm
Quote from: Insert_Gnome_Here on February 18, 2016, 12:54:16 pm
Turns out Legends Mode is all lies. Tells me 18 goblins attacked and 4 died, when there were clearly about 100 of them, and more than 10 got killed.
Maybe it only counts the ones that score kills?
Title: Re: Dwarven Minecart Cavalry
Post by: gnidan on February 18, 2016, 07:53:55 pm
So is it no problem to get the marksdwarves to ride the minecarts and shoot at the same time?
Title: Re: Dwarven Minecart Cavalry
Post by: Insert_Gnome_Here on February 19, 2016, 06:44:47 am
If the marksdwarves are activated while in minecarts, and they are properly equipped, they will fire bolts. The difficulty is the horrendous amount of micromanagement needed to get everyone armed and on the track. It may be possible to use werebeasts and keep them in minecarts at all times, given that they never starve.

I started a new fort between Joyous Wilds and Untamed Wilds biomes, and without warning, this happened.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I'll have to learn how to use Mantis now.

EDIT: Those are husks of everyone except one miner who was underground at the time.
Title: Re: Dwarven Minecart Cavalry
Post by: sirdanilot on February 19, 2016, 07:56:41 am
Wont the marksdwarves run out of bolts pretty soon, even with quivers?

And if you do not disconnect the track from the field, won't they just get  out when the cart stops to collect the bolts, thereby getting themselves killed?
Title: Re: Dwarven Minecart Cavalry
Post by: Sanctume on February 19, 2016, 09:56:31 am
You can at least toggle to stop collecting spent bolts. 

The micro-management should not be an issue if say a squad of 10 marksdwarf only have 6 archery targets for training. 
All the marksdwarf has push vehicle labor on, in which they will probably ride the minecart one at a time per track/route.
Title: Re: Dwarven Minecart Cavalry
Post by: hun on February 19, 2016, 02:42:07 pm
Is it possible for minecart riders to pick stuff from their minecart? My intuition tells me "NO" though. Actually, can't remember if it is possible to unload minecarts in any way except dumping.

It would be so awesome otherwise. To load minecarts with decent amount of food, booze and bolts, then send them out and forget about them for months. Not sure if they could sleep properly though.
Title: Re: Dwarven Minecart Cavalry
Post by: Insert_Gnome_Here on February 19, 2016, 03:28:27 pm
Arena Mode suggests that is not a thing that is possible.
Title: Re: Dwarven Minecart Cavalry
Post by: Williham on February 19, 2016, 04:50:41 pm
Quote from: hun on February 19, 2016, 02:42:07 pm
Is it possible for minecart riders to pick stuff from their minecart? My intuition tells me "NO" though. Actually, can't remember if it is possible to unload minecarts in any way except dumping.

It would be so awesome otherwise. To load minecarts with decent amount of food, booze and bolts, then send them out and forget about them for months. Not sure if they could sleep properly though.

Quote from: Insert_Gnome_Here on February 19, 2016, 03:28:27 pm
Arena Mode suggests that is not a thing that is possible.

What about things in backpacks and waterskins?
Title: Re: Dwarven Minecart Cavalry
Post by: khearn on February 19, 2016, 05:22:24 pm
I'd expect backpacks and waterskins to work, so they could stay hydrated and fed for a while, so the problem would be running out of ammo.
Title: Re: Dwarven Minecart Cavalry
Post by: Loci on February 20, 2016, 01:46:17 am
Well, I built this (http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2014:Megaprojects#Surveillance_Track) in the previous version:

(http://dwarffortresswiki.org/images/thumb/a/ad/Surveillance_track.png/300px-Surveillance_track.png)

Observations:

Minecart shotgunning isn't just for cargo; riding dwarves go flying if their minecart hits an "obstacle" at speed

Dwarves will dodge out of a moving minecart, with predictably poor results

A track that connects back to your fortress attracts thieves and invaders; air-gapping the track (using minecart jumps, of course) mostly prevents this

Getting multiple carts on the same track in a safe manner is quite difficult, but can probably be accomplished by some system of "holding loops"
Title: Re: Dwarven Minecart Cavalry
Post by: achamalacha on February 20, 2016, 07:53:21 am
Quote from: omega_dwarf on February 17, 2016, 05:27:53 pm
This reminds me of a small scale version of the connect-the-world-with-minecarts problem/thread.

Sounds interesting. care to post the link?
Title: Re: Dwarven Minecart Cavalry
Post by: omega_dwarf on February 20, 2016, 05:24:21 pm
Quote from: Insert_Gnome_Here on February 18, 2016, 10:22:43 am
It turns out that the cavalry can outrun bolts

That's some good marketing material, right there. (Aka, that's seriously awesome, and with some clever terraforming, I think you could use that to your advantage in a big way. Fleeing the gobbos, leading them into a trough which has a turn at the end, shooting behind you. That kind of thing.)

@achamalacha

Goodness, I forgot how long some of the posts were on that one. And I may have looked halfway like a fool :P But here it is (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=147077). The minecart routing discussions start on page 2.
Title: Re: Dwarven Minecart Cavalry
Post by: sirdanilot on February 20, 2016, 08:35:09 pm
Will hunters hunt while riding the minecart, assuming they are properly equipped?
Title: Re: Dwarven Minecart Cavalry
Post by: Insert_Gnome_Here on February 21, 2016, 08:08:18 am
You can set them to kill nearby wildlife.
Title: Re: Dwarven Minecart Cavalry
Post by: achamalacha on February 27, 2016, 12:48:53 pm
Quote from: omega_dwarf on February 20, 2016, 05:24:21 pm
here it is (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=147077).

Cheers!
Title: Re: Dwarven Minecart Cavalry
Post by: Insert_Gnome_Here on February 27, 2016, 01:08:51 pm
My roundabout testing fort has a minecart loop set up (no working roundabouts yet, though).
It works, until too many dwarves enter the ride/disembark area, when they all collide at high velocity and die.
Title: Re: Dwarven Minecart Cavalry
Post by: sirdanilot on February 27, 2016, 02:49:13 pm
Quote from: Insert_Gnome_Here on February 27, 2016, 01:08:51 pm
My roundabout testing fort has a minecart loop set up (no working roundabouts yet, though).
It works, until too many dwarves enter the ride/disembark area, when they all collide at high velocity and die.
Maybe you should put up 'Yield' signs at the entrance of the roundabout :D