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Dwarf Fortress => DF General Discussion => Topic started by: TheFlame52 on June 27, 2016, 02:20:13 pm

Title: The Ultimate Conquerers - A Science Thread (SUCCESS!)
Post by: TheFlame52 on June 27, 2016, 02:20:13 pm
Quote from: Toady One on March 31, 2016, 04:46:41 pm
Quote from: TheFlame52
What part(s) of a general's personality dictate(s) their actions/effectiveness?

I haven't spent much time with this so it's very placeholdery.  The civ leader's personality comes up more than the general's, since the civ leader decides where to attack and when.  For that, it compares the army strengths, ethical mismatches, past disputes and other historical events to confidence, ambition, propensity to anger, excitement-seeking and recklessness in a few different passes.  A general's actual effectiveness in a given battle is just a function of the tactics, leadership and organization skills they pick up in world gen as they go.  Since there isn't much data in world gen in terms of position/strategy/tactics/logistics/etc. etc. etc., there's not much to work with so I only went that far.

This is the answer to a question I asked in Future of the Fortress a few months ago. Now the question is, using clever modding, can we make a civilization of ultimate conquerors?

I'm going to start with humans, since I did another study and humans almost always come out on top. I'll make them more prone to all those things mentioned previously. Then I'll gen a few worlds and see how things turn out!
Title: Re: The Ultimate Conquerers - A Science Thread
Post by: TheFlame52 on June 27, 2016, 04:07:16 pm
In the human creature I put:

   [PERSONALITY:CONFIDENCE:50:75:100]
   [PERSONALITY:AMBITION:50:75:100]
   [PERSONALITY:ANGER_PROPENSITY:50:75:100]
   [PERSONALITY:EXCITEMENT_SEEKING:50:75:100]
   [PERSONALITY:THOUGHTLESSNESS:50:75:100]
   [PERSONALITY:VENGEFUL:50:75:100]

Vengefulness isn't in that list but I figured it wouldn't hurt.

So then I generated a world and exported legends. The humans are plenty aggressive, but they aren't conquerors. They prefer to pillage and leave. So now I'm going to make them like all sites.
Title: Re: The Ultimate Conquerers - A Science Thread
Post by: TheFlame52 on June 27, 2016, 05:29:18 pm
Well, that sort of did it. They still prefer to pillage, but now they're even more hostile than before. They even fight other humans, something I've never seen before. Anyone know how to make armies conquer instead of pillage?
Title: Re: The Ultimate Conquerers - A Science Thread
Post by: omada on June 27, 2016, 06:14:00 pm
PTW
Title: Re: The Ultimate Conquerers - A Science Thread
Post by: darkflagrance on June 28, 2016, 10:46:05 pm
This is pretty awesome. Maybe this is the gateway to making some exciting history for once.
Title: Re: The Ultimate Conquerers - A Science Thread
Post by: pikachu17 on June 29, 2016, 09:17:24 am
Quote from: TheFlame52 on June 27, 2016, 05:29:18 pm
Well, that sort of did it. They still prefer to pillage, but now they're even more hostile than before. They even fight other humans, something I've never seen before. Anyone know how to make armies conquer instead of pillage?
Not sure, but changing their ethics might help, and adding natural_skills might help... or not. I really have no idea.
Title: Re: The Ultimate Conquerers - A Science Thread
Post by: TheFlame52 on June 29, 2016, 03:47:36 pm
The problem now is not getting them to attack or win, it's getting them to conquer instead of pillage.

Just to be sure, I jacked the values on those personality traits up to 100 and made them learn the general's skills five times faster.

EDIT: I also set their peace value to -50 and their martial prowess value to 50.
Title: Re: The Ultimate Conquerers - A Science Thread
Post by: TheFlame52 on June 29, 2016, 05:09:42 pm
Oh my god. This is the most violent world ever generated. Nearly three-quarters of all sentient beings are humans.

2/3 dwarven nations are dead. One because they were gang-raped by four elven nations at once, the other because they were fucked by goblins. The remaining nation is partly gone because they were randomly conquered by goblins during the goblins' war against the elves. That's right, the goblins decided to attack a whole unrelated nation. They were being led by a human at the time.

4/5 elven nations are dead or dying. Three got fucked by humans, the fourth never expanded beyond two forest retreats. The last still got fucked by humans, just not hard enough to do them in.

3/4 goblin nations are dead or dying. Two got fucked by humans, the third got fucked by megabeasts and then humans. The last nation was smart enough to keep their demon master as their general, and also never got into any wars.

Meanwhile, the five human nations are booming.
 - The Reclusive Realms have conquered two nations of goblins and elves. They have almost as many conquered sites as constructed ones. They have a wombat monster prisoner. Also, in 193 when the law-giver died without an heir, there was a fucking nation-wide civil war. Hundreds died. Holy hell. They also have a goddess of peace who is very sad.
 - The Realms of Living have conquered a nation of elves. They've had three nation-wide civil wars, for reasons I can't quite fathom.
 - The Persuasive Confederations have conquered a nation of goblins. They have the largest population, at 18000. They have a skink fiend prisoner who is also a lord. At one point they had a dwarven vampire law-giver who stepped down for no apparent reason. He still lives in the capital and everything.
 - The Dipped Realms have conquered a nation of elves. Not really much about these guys. They're the smallest human nation at 5000.
 - The Ardent Realm hasn't conquered anyone because they're faggots. They were prepping a goblin nation for conquest, but the Reclusive Realms swept in before they could. They have had a goblin law-giver for 200 years.

Meanwhile, all these human nations are fighting each other, themselves, and everyone around them. They even fight dwarves, which I've never seen before. NOW TIME TO SEE WHAT HAPPENS WHEN WE DO THIS TO ALL FOUR RACES
Title: Re: The Ultimate Conquerers - A Science Thread
Post by: Whatsifsowhatsit on June 29, 2016, 05:54:51 pm
Quote from: TheFlame52 on June 29, 2016, 05:09:42 pm
- The Ardent Realm hasn't conquered anyone because they're faggots.

Hm.

Anyway, PTW.
Title: Re: The Ultimate Conquerers - A Science Thread (SUCCESS!)
Post by: TheFlame52 on June 30, 2016, 08:52:37 am
So basically I made those personality and skill modifications to all four races. I also made them like all sites, hate peace, and adore warriors. I'm now generating a 500-year world. Details this afternoon.
Title: Re: The Ultimate Conquerers - A Science Thread (SUCCESS!)
Post by: FantasticDorf on June 30, 2016, 10:40:32 am
That's cute.

Im quite happy with sharing with you my own personal forumula for creating a all conquering force

First ingredient
> Goblins, good warrior race that will see their primary ambitions of ruling the world within their lifetimes come to fruition (if the demon lord is overthrown or dies)
> Change ethics on slavery to mandatory

Second ingredient
> Modify the raws extensively to make them playable in fortress mode, this includes fixing tags surrounding beak dog pets as to enable trade and some tools, anything extra like pottery you want to add is your own decision. I recommend holding them as they are now at iron as the most advanced metal they have access to.

> Modify key fortress mode nobles into the game with any mix that you desire as long as it does not involve a land-owner/mayor (Head warband practitioner - chief medical dwarf etc etc.) I personally for gobbo choice, like to roll champions and executioners together by modifying the weapon skill to use a axe and hybridizing the responsibilities (with no adverse effect in the game).

> Leave all but the diplomat & outpost envoy nobles for wider non-site nobles. These two are important for site interactions (meeting with expedition leaders who by legends often arise by threats of violence fittingly when they splinter off the tower to rule over dark pits) and wider diplomacy interactions between your leader (procedurally generated demon monarch, dont replace monarch important note, and the procedural general which organises sieges where the demon leader dictates, naturally made more powerful by site individual military presence) and the rest of the civilizations.

Final and key ingredients for this tasty dish of world domination

> Modify in a conquered site noble (using the unused dwarf equivalent as basis, so that they can actually hold onto sites for themselves rather than have to comply with raising them without taking the entire civilization first as a puppet)

> Modify all your localised militia groups & commanders to 'law enforcement' so that they enact their slavery routines and round up tresspassers when site fighting resolutions and patrols are finished. Incarcerated people will be added to the prisons and soon re-emerge as citizens to work the lands.

Run for 100 years or more

?????

Profit, they effectively rule the world without burning down most of it. Humans elves and dwarves are rolled underneath the goblins thumb and a new age of peace, prosperity and utmost cruelty is complete.

Title: Re: The Ultimate Conquerers - A Science Thread (SUCCESS!)
Post by: smakemupagus on June 30, 2016, 10:52:12 am
FantasticDorf, would you mind posting the raws of your conquered site noble?
Title: Re: The Ultimate Conquerers - A Science Thread (SUCCESS!)
Post by: FantasticDorf on June 30, 2016, 11:05:59 am
Quote from: smakemupagus on June 30, 2016, 10:52:12 am
FantasticDorf, would you mind posting the raws of your conquered site noble?

Sure. This is it's base, and more or less, without bells and whistles for preferred goblin traits on how they should look, this is the same between both dwarves and goblins on what i use.

Quote from: base dwarf conquered site noble
[POSITION:FORCED_ADMINISTRATOR]
      [NAME:administrator:administrators]
      [CONQUERED_SITE]
      [FLASHES]
      [BRAG_ON_KILL]
      [CHAT_WORTHY]
      [DO_NOT_CULL]
      [KILL_QUEST]
      [EXPORTED_IN_LEGENDS]
      [DETERMINES_COIN_DESIGN]
      [MENIAL_WORK_EXEMPTION]
      [SLEEP_PRETENSION]
      [PUNISHMENT_EXEMPTION]
      [ACCOUNT_EXEMPT]
      [DUTY_BOUND]
      [COLOR:5:0:0]
      [MANDATE_MAX:2]
      [DEMAND_MAX:3]
      [PRECEDENCE:65]
      [NUMBER:1]
      [RESPONSIBILITY:LAW_MAKING]
      [RESPONSIBILITY:RECEIVE_DIPLOMATS]
      [RESPONSIBILITY:MAKE_TOPIC_AGREEMENTS]
      [RESPONSIBILITY:MEET_WORKERS]

but that can be easily modified (because dwarves never offensively fight, they never end up using this noble) for alternative names and responsibilities. Again i mention diplomats as being important.

Quote
[POSITION:ENFORCED_GOVERNOR]
[NAME:enforced governor:enforced governors]

EDIT - I admit i've never really delved much deeper than that and its run smoothly enough to not be touched. I might even spare having a go at trying to integrate more conquered site nobles. (I wonder how a militia/law enforcement would fare in enforcing slavery?)
Title: Re: The Ultimate Conquerers - A Science Thread (SUCCESS!)
Post by: smakemupagus on June 30, 2016, 11:13:53 am
Great, thanks!
Title: Re: The Ultimate Conquerers - A Science Thread (SUCCESS!)
Post by: smakemupagus on June 30, 2016, 11:21:33 am
Quote from: FantasticDorf on June 30, 2016, 11:05:59 am
EDIT - I admit i've never really delved much deeper than that and its run smoothly enough to not be touched. I might even spare having a go at trying to integrate more conquered site nobles. (I wonder how a militia/law enforcement would fare in enforcing slavery?)

I was a little surprised that the conquered site administrator doesn't also have responsibility:executions and :law_enforcement, have you ever experimented with that?

Still, just having the administrator at all is probably the main thing, so that advice/reminder is much appreciated :D
Title: Re: The Ultimate Conquerers - A Science Thread (SUCCESS!)
Post by: TheFlame52 on June 30, 2016, 02:47:32 pm
Quote from: FantasticDorf on June 30, 2016, 10:40:32 am
But goblins and humans already have generated site administrators. Why do I need to put in my own? Also, making them playable, this is supposed to be a worldgen experiment.

As for what to make conquerors, I prefer humans. Occasionally the random values spit out someone who is perfect for conquest. Also, humans do better in battle because they're bigger than other races. I did some science a bit ago on who 'wins' in worldgen, and it's usually humans.
Title: Re: The Ultimate Conquerers - A Science Thread (SUCCESS!)
Post by: NCommander on June 30, 2016, 02:52:28 pm
Generated nobles are kinda wonky. In worldgen, humans and elfs always seem to have diplomats to make peace, but they don't show up unless they're in the raws. The conquered site one is special, but no one has scienced it to figure out how to make to go.

In terms of species stats, elfs actually are the strongest of the four civs, since they have a natural speed boost, can domesticate anything in their biomes, etc. Elfs in iron or steel can murder pretty much anything in a straight up fight.

I think to make them conquer vs pillage, try driving up their slave ethic which should get them to conquer the site.
Title: Re: The Ultimate Conquerers - A Science Thread (SUCCESS!)
Post by: FantasticDorf on June 30, 2016, 03:10:57 pm
Quote from: TheFlame52 on June 30, 2016, 02:47:32 pm
Quote from: FantasticDorf on June 30, 2016, 10:40:32 am
But goblins and humans already have generated site administrators. Why do I need to put in my own? Also, making them playable, this is supposed to be a worldgen experiment.

As for what to make conquerors, I prefer humans. Occasionally the random values spit out someone who is perfect for conquest. Also, humans do better in battle because they're bigger than other races. I did some science a bit ago on who 'wins' in worldgen, and it's usually humans.

Splicing in your own and the wider range of nobles to the pool (they simply puppet the leaders procedurally not actually send a noble) offers control to yourself, both on site and off site and enriches the legends mode immensely. You're entitled to form your own opinion on what you view as the categorical best.

Its also guaranteed that it is implemented if you do it yourself on the off chance that goblins just ignore it and prefer to (because its not decided by the player but the game, the 'demon monarch' probably doesn't care) raze the perfectly fine settlement.

The secret of my goblins compared to your humans is that they adapt their armies for multi-racial converts (dwarves have marital trances = valuable, human recruits are larger = valuable, elves breed fast and nobody likes elves anyway so they are good fodder = valuable?) on top of their already crushing numbers, becoming a horde like the should be.

Having goblins also be playable has benefits besides just a different style of play from playing a evil race (semi-sentients flock to you, lack of ethics, cannibalism and constant hostility), lots of multi-race citizens from babysnatching and former slaves pass through your embark. Its good to be bad. If this kind of thing sticks around to the army arc, its is going to be veeery interesting to see how it fleshes out when you're at the helm of the vile forces of darkness.

Edit - In response to Ncommander, the speed bonus is nice but taming 'any creature' is kind of exaggeration for you mean that the civ entity can, not actually individual elves (until it becomes so via some kind of druidism magic rework)
Title: Re: The Ultimate Conquerers - A Science Thread (SUCCESS!)
Post by: NCommander on June 30, 2016, 03:41:30 pm
No, in game, being at peace with wildlife means you civ automatically knows how to domestically anything in their home biome. If you embark as elfs, and check the z->Animals menu, you'll get several pages of animals domesticated.
Title: Re: The Ultimate Conquerers - A Science Thread (SUCCESS!)
Post by: TheFlame52 on June 30, 2016, 04:05:34 pm
So I've finished with the maximum-hostility world.

It isn't as impressive as the last one.

1/4 dwarven nations remain, 2/4 elven nations remain, 3/4 goblin nations remain, 4/4 human nations remain. Some interesting nations:
 - The Fang of Kindling, elves, who conquered another neighboring nation of elves.
 - The Routed Laces, elves, who conquered two nations of dwarves and goblins.
 - The Awe-Inspiring Dungeons, goblins, who conquered two nations of elves and dwarves while fending off their goblin neighbors. They also have the only remaining demon master.
 - The Turquoise Realm, humans, who pillaged and destroyed a kobold cave.

Now I'm going to try that again, but this time with no beasts so every death is due to war.


Quote from: FantasticDorf on June 30, 2016, 03:10:57 pm
This is all for fort mode, though. Anyone can be a conqueror in fort mode. I'm talking about worldgen. Also, I have not seen a site get razed since like 0.34, with the exception of kobold caves.
Title: Re: The Ultimate Conquerers - A Science Thread (SUCCESS!)
Post by: FantasticDorf on June 30, 2016, 04:30:46 pm
Quote from: NCommander on June 30, 2016, 03:41:30 pm
No, in game, being at peace with wildlife means you civ automatically knows how to domestically anything in their home biome. If you embark as elfs, and check the z->Animals menu, you'll get several pages of animals domesticated.

Incorrect.

That's the entity token  DFwiki - ANY_PET_RACE - Entity token (http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2014:Entity_token#USE_ANY_PET_RACE) for elves that is [USE_ANY_PET_RACE] animalmen have the same but arent a civ. The fundamentals of it being able to tame anything is true but its not actually a elf racially constrained thing. Swap out all the elves in the elven civilisation for goblins and it works the same.

Title: Re: The Ultimate Conquerers - A Science Thread (SUCCESS!)
Post by: FantasticDorf on June 30, 2016, 04:54:01 pm
Quote from: TheFlame52 on June 30, 2016, 04:05:34 pm
This is all for fort mode, though. Anyone can be a conqueror in fort mode. I'm talking about worldgen. Also, I have not seen a site get razed since like 0.34, with the exception of kobold caves.

No its not. Having functional nobles on the ground makes for better settlements because new nobles will occupy dark goblin pits (meaning each militia leader and subordinates are running around doing thier job, and the game would still be workable if you played from the perspective of a goblin civ)

You can play or you can just watch the world gen fight it out. Each settlement with properly established trade (via broker rather than procedural markets which are iffy) will also get caravans of goods and a market mandatorily if im led to believe (as viewed from a adventure mode perspective of observing the local trade depot) meaning that there is a distribution of wealth across the goblin civ, rather than it being 100% local (of course again, interesting to see when economy supply/demand is properly established with persistent caravans, i expect the goblins to be weakened by it and to source localised materials without modding, meaning mish-mashes of goblins wearing iron, some in copper and most in leather arriving to sieges sourced from their homes)

Its just a notable improvement on both sides, fortress mode and observing from legends mode.
Title: Re: The Ultimate Conquerers - A Science Thread (SUCCESS!)
Post by: sirvente on June 30, 2016, 07:33:13 pm
I've seen a few sites get razed after extensive tinkering with the entities file though I can't remember what I did. Something's clearly wrong with how the ai deals with enemy sites though, you regularly see them conquering sites they don't like or tolerate, I think toady did something when he rewrote megabeast rampages
Title: Re: The Ultimate Conquerers - A Science Thread (SUCCESS!)
Post by: TheFlame52 on June 30, 2016, 08:19:29 pm
I should do a world where just humans are hostile, then run it for a thousand years and see if they exterminate everyone.

EDIT: I'm doing just that. I'm in the 400s and humans seem to be winning, followed by elves.
Title: Re: The Ultimate Conquerers - A Science Thread (SUCCESS!)
Post by: TheFlame52 on July 01, 2016, 01:54:11 pm
The world was boring and lagged out Legends Viewer.

Quote from: NCommander on June 30, 2016, 02:52:28 pm
I think to make them conquer vs pillage, try driving up their slave ethic which should get them to conquer the site.
Humans already have it at acceptable, I'm going to push it up to required.

EDIT: I think the problem with pillaging/conquering is that a site needs to be depopulated before it can be conquered, hence all the pillaging.