Bay 12 Games Forum
Dwarf Fortress => DF Dwarf Mode Discussion => Topic started by: Halnoth on July 15, 2016, 08:25:39 am
-
I find it very annoying when marksdwarves jump through fortifications and into the middle of an army. So, I designed the system below to fix it.
Build floors on either _____ <---- roof
side of an outer wall -------> ___ F dwarf
Ground level ____________ |___|||||||
Channel two -------------> ^_|
squares in front of wall
This way if a dwarf jumps through they only fall 1z and can get back through a door or draw bridge. Just make sure the inside where the dwarf falls is sealed off. I just connected the outer wall to the inner wall 2 squares from any fortifications (to prevent dwarves possibly jumping on top of the constructed floors).
-
Nice. I guess the overhang also stops creatures from climbing up the wall manually too, forcing them to enter the building/entrance (with some neatly placed traps or a platoon of dwarves waiting a reckon)
-
Nice. I guess the overhang also stops creatures from climbing up the wall manually too, forcing them to enter the building/entrance (with some neatly placed traps or a platoon of dwarves waiting a reckon)
Exactly
-
Code tags would make that look a lot better.
-
I build all my archer towers like raised pillboxes.
Fully enclosed/roofed with no way out but pathing through the fort out the front door.
-
I build all my archer towers like raised pillboxes.
Fully enclosed/roofed with no way out but pathing through the fort out the front door.
Dwarves can jump through fortifications now. So there is in fact another way out.
-
I build all my archer towers like raised pillboxes.
Fully enclosed/roofed with no way out but pathing through the fort out the front door.
Dwarves can jump through fortifications now. So there is in fact another way out.
Intentionally? I haven't observed this yet. That's awful D:
-
I build all my archer towers like raised pillboxes.
Fully enclosed/roofed with no way out but pathing through the fort out the front door.
Dwarves can jump through fortifications now. So there is in fact another way out.
Intentionally? I haven't observed this yet. That's awful D:
if they cant path to the target any other way they will go through it.
its actually kind of impressive considering that ive always imagined fortifications to be a small hole in a wall, maby baseball sized
-
I always thought of fortifications as being arrow slits maybe a hand wide, maybe Toady's thinking of them like ramparts?
In any case, does the overhanging floor outside the tower keep archers from shooting at things that get closeish?
-
I always thought of fortifications as being arrow slits maybe a hand wide, maybe Toady's thinking of them like ramparts?
In any case, does the overhanging floor outside the tower keep archers from shooting at things that get closeish?
Ya it impedes line of sight for the tiles below the floor and I think one tile out. You can reduce this by digging away one tile beneath the outer wall this way the overhang is actually under the outer wall. Then you could of course omit the outer floor (you still need the inner one though so the dwarf that falls doesn't climb the outer wall. Really though the blind spot doesn't matter that much unless you are on a 1x1 embark or are in the caverns where space is limited.
-
Based on their ASCII tile, and the fact that Dwarfs use crossbows, I always expected them to be crossbow slits. Which is like an arrow slit, but shaped like a cross to accommodate the weapon.
One of the interesting things about them, is that they have always been open at the top. That is, if there is 7/7 water or magma flowing through the fortification, swimmers or magma creatures will be able to swim over and past.
So I guess it stands to reason that dwarfs can jump through?
Three questions on these guard tower designs:
1 - how bad is the reduction of visibility created by the overhang? I expect this means archers can't target nearby enemies, because they would be occluded? Maybe the overhang should be a few levels below the fireing platform, to reduce it's impact?
2 - can archers fire through floor grates? If so, it might be nice to let them stand on an overhanging platform and just fire through the floor
3 - I'm pretty sure archers can fire through double fortifications. Would having that be enough to prevent pathing by jumping?
-
I've not witness a marksdwarf jumping out of bunker fortifications.
There are 2 different constructed fortifications.
The one without a roof is b-C-F which constructs a fortification without a ceiling, and that is a path a dwarf can jump through. This issue has been there since 40.24.
The other one with a roof is a 2-step: b-C-W which builds a solid wall, then d-A designate to carve fortification. This one does not have any pathing for jumping out of.
It is still possible for a stray arrow from a bow goblin to shoot through a fortification and Urist marskdwarf dodges that arrow onto the fortification tile as dodging will let a dwarf go into or though a passable tile.
This issue is similar to barracks sparring making the dodging dwarf pass through a solid wall and out of the fortress.
-
Based on their ASCII tile, and the fact that Dwarfs use crossbows, I always expected them to be crossbow slits. Which is like an arrow slit, but shaped like a cross to accommodate the weapon.
One of the interesting things about them, is that they have always been open at the top. That is, if there is 7/7 water or magma flowing through the fortification, swimmers or magma creatures will be able to swim over and past.
So I guess it stands to reason that dwarfs can jump through?
Three questions on these guard tower designs:
1 - how bad is the reduction of visibility created by the overhang? I expect this means archers can't target nearby enemies, because they would be occluded? Maybe the overhang should be a few levels below the fireing platform, to reduce it's impact?
2 - can archers fire through floor grates? If so, it might be nice to let them stand on an overhanging platform and just fire through the floor
3 - I'm pretty sure archers can fire through double fortifications. Would having that be enough to prevent pathing by jumping?
I answered #1 literally in the post above yours. Line of sight is disrupted for the tile below the floor and 1 tile out. Also, you don't want the dwarf that jumps to fall more than 1z.
2. Not sure, I haven't heard of anyone testing it but the xbowman would only have a view of what is below him so probably not very practical.
3. Possibly but then new xbowmen would not be able to use the fortifications because noob xbowers have to be directly next to the fortification in order to fire out.
-
I've not witness a marksdwarf jumping out of bunker fortifications.
There are 2 different constructed fortifications.
The one without a roof is b-C-F which constructs a fortification without a ceiling, and that is a path a dwarf can jump through. This issue has been there since 40.24.
The other one with a roof is a 2-step: b-C-W which builds a solid wall, then d-A designate to carve fortification. This one does not have any pathing for jumping out of.
It is still possible for a stray arrow from a bow goblin to shoot through a fortification and Urist marskdwarf dodges that arrow onto the fortification tile as dodging will let a dwarf go into or though a passable tile.
This issue is similar to barracks sparring making the dodging dwarf pass through a solid wall and out of the fortress.
All of my fortifications are block walls that I then engrave fortifications into. They are definitely jumping through not dodging. I have had dwarves jump through into a seige which had only melee (no xbows or bows in the enemy army). It doesn't happen that often but it really really annoys me and I'm sure I'm not the only one.
-
Did you try putting hanging statues surrounding the fortifications on outer edge?
Harder to set up, granted.
-
gargoyle statues, and need to be 2z+ so building destroyers still can't reach them
-
Did you try putting hanging statues surrounding the fortifications on outer edge?
Harder to set up, granted.
Thats a good idea to stop them jumping. Does it solve the issue mentioned by sanctume as well?
-
Perhaps? At least they are unable to travel diagonally downwards over a hanging statue on downward ramp.
-
It's probably just me being stupid, but from the picture I'm not exactly sure what the design is. To me it looks like this:
F ☺
‾ W ‾ W ‾
G G G G G G
G G G G G G G G
where G=ground, W=wall, F=fortification, _=floor, and ☺=dwarf.
Granting my interpretation, I don't see the purpose of the middle of the three constructed floors? It seems like a (slightly) more compact (and just as effective) version would be this:
F ☺
‾ W W ‾
G G G G G
G G G G G G G
Finally, since I was/(am?) having trouble visualizing this, I couldn't quite understand the conversation regarding effects on targetting. Was the conclusion that there's no effective difference between the above and the following?
F ☺
W W ‾
G ‾ G G G G
G G G G G G G
From my understanding, targetting is based on straight-line visibility. In that case then it seems the very first tower in my post wouldn't be able to target an enemy standing on the edge of the "mote" around the tower. In the second it's iffy since I'm not sure what the height of a z-level is exactly, relative to the width/height of a tile. In the third, I think an enemy at the edge can definitely be targetted.
Summing up:
1) Is the tower in the first codeblock ("#1") what the OP was describing?
2) Is there a reason tower #2 is less effective than #1?
3) Are there visibility/targetting differences between #1, #2 and #3?
Thanks
-
In codeblock #1, dwarf on right side can jump down, but unable to climb up the middle due to the floor lip. Likewise, enemies in theory cannot climb the middle due to the floor lip extending to the left.
I'd do something like this:
_____
sF☺x☺Fs
_ W_x_W _
G W_x_W G
G__GGGGG__G
where G=ground, W=wall, F=fortification, _=floor, x=stairs, s=statue, and ☺=dwarf.
-
1) Yep, you got it.
3) Yeah - I suppose having the overhang lower on enemy side would grant greater visibility, though 1-high overhang is somewhat more likely to be jumped at, few that such enemies may be.
-
Thanks Sanctume and Fleeting Frames. I totally forgot about jumping, so #3 is out (or I could extend the channel to be three wide, and then the whichever level the lip is on won't affect visibility). Further, #2 is a problem because, after jumping through, my dorfs would be stupid and try and climb up to stand on the unguarded left wall and floor?
Sanctume: Nice design. Why is the channel two deep and not just one?
-
Yeah, and I'd wager they'd probably then jump down from the unguarded floor to hit enemies with their crossbow.
Though, hm... could enemies possibly jump in through fortifications?
A submarinecart patrol might otherwise prevent dwarf from getting out through fortifications while training some stats and keeping lookout at same time. No passive skill boost, though.
-
I always do 2z dry moat. Using 1z makes the enemies jump down and use it as a path sometimes. I prefer them to be out in the open.
As to how to get the miners out after channeling the 2nd z, I channel a ramp out and put a floor after the last miner exits.