Post by: piecewise on January 02, 2017, 10:49:39 am
Post by: Pancaek on January 02, 2017, 10:57:29 am
Why not have the engine heart get some kind of bonus to resisting deep sea magic, since it doesn't have a soul/whatever like everyone else does? +20 endure also sounds good. Because really, no way to get resurrected is a bit harsh, since it seems like a big deal in the game.
Don't nerf the civvie though.
Questions: What do engine hearts use to heal/repair
Is the "max 30 points in an attribute the amount of points you put in from the 100 point pool, or the total you get from point pool + archetype bonuses?
Post by: Pancaek on January 02, 2017, 11:16:11 am
In the rules it mentions that hide is used to take cover from blast. Is that the only ability that can be used? It would seem that a character with high move might also be able to jump behind some kind of cover in time, instead of having to rely on the stealth ability just to not get hit in the face.
Post by: piecewise on January 02, 2017, 11:23:46 am
Also, in addition to my question about the max 30 points from last post.
In the rules it mentions that hide is used to take cover from blast. Is that the only ability that can be used? It would seem that a character with high move might also be able to jump behind some kind of cover in time, instead of having to rely on the stealth ability just to not get hit in the face.
Max points you can put in to begin with, not counting the bonus.
Hide is used to take cover from shots, where as move would be used to dodge them or move out of the way. You could, however, say "Run behind that pillar!" and you'd end the move in cover.
Really, it's just the difference of if you avoid the initial attack via putting stuff between you and it, or by getting the hell out of the way. It's a somewhat important distinction to make because taking cover could sometimes fail even with a successful roll if the weapon is highly destructive. That drywall won't protect you from a rocket launcher.
Post by: syvarris on January 02, 2017, 01:49:14 pm
I suppose I should mention that the slow stamina regen might be a bad idea simply for gameplay; nobody wants to sit for days with their action being "rest to regain stamina". That isn't balance so much as rule of fun.
Post by: Radio Controlled on January 02, 2017, 02:39:11 pm
If you want critiques on the system balance, I have a ton of things to say. I'm just assuming that it isn't the time for making a laundry list of flaws rather than testing the game.Yeah, I'm afraid that after a bout of combat it's either gonna be 'rest up until stamina regained' and take a while doing nothing, or the waiting will be shortened for fun, thus diminishing the value of the stat.
I suppose I should mention that the slow stamina regen might be a bad idea simply for gameplay; nobody wants to sit for days with their action being "rest to regain stamina". That isn't balance so much as rule of fun.
Really, if anything I think the Oro test (and amp experience before) showed the trouble with this kind of mechanic, even though it might sound nice on paper. But maybe we should just move on with the system as-is for now and see after an expedition or 2 how things are, we can still change then (we did it for ER, so it's possible, if a bit of a bitch to do).
All that said, the system does look interesting, hype is raising to levels not seen in a while.
Post by: Pancaek on January 02, 2017, 02:41:13 pm
But hey, it might not be so bad. We'll see.
Post by: MidnightJaguar on January 02, 2017, 02:51:06 pm
Post by: piecewise on January 02, 2017, 03:08:41 pm
Really, if anything, stamina is fairly meaningless for normal attacks, its purpose is for restraining certain other actions like resurrection, Diving in the Deep Sea, and building for days on end.
And you get stamina back automatically so long as you don't do anythign requiring a roll, so walking around exploring would let you get stamina back.
If it becomes a problem though, we'll just cut it, so don't worry about it.
I should point out that while the world here is mine, the system is actually almost entirely adapted from someone else's system that I thought fit what I wanted to do well. His system was all future based so stamina was Energy and you could pull it from battery packs and stuff. His stuff had a lot more in depth stuff with powerful weapons requiring lots of energy to use. I think one of them required like 100 energy to shoot once. So this is a weird hybrid of my ideas and his that may work poorly.
Post by: Pancaek on January 02, 2017, 03:10:59 pm
Post by: piecewise on January 02, 2017, 03:21:52 pm
So, do tool boxes stack, and if we end up getting a better form of a tool box would we have to discard our old one?Identical tool boxes don't, and an upgraded toolbox probably wouldn't, BUT if you get some other +X build item, those could stack.
So if you had a tool box and, say, a mechanical auto-wrench (Build +5), then those would stack. The idea being that the Tool box gives you a bonus because hey, you have basic tools and that makes building easier. Having twice the number of identical tools wouldn't do shit. But having basic tools plus special advanced tool, that would help more.
Hey pw, could you elaborate a bit on the enginehearts resistance to direct deep sea stuff? I'm having trouble deciding how important Mind is for my char.
They are immune in that they cannot be DIRECTLY affected. Ie, someone can't go into the deep sea and find him and fuck with his mind, or tear his body apart, or hurl him across the room. BUT they could collapse the room he's in. Or control someone else and have that person attack him.
Not immune from all effects caused or influenced by the sea, but immune from any direct action.
Post by: Pancaek on January 02, 2017, 03:25:09 pm
Post by: piecewise on January 02, 2017, 03:26:25 pm
So, really, the mind=deep sea magic hp pool isn't really important to them?
Not as important, but other mind effecting things could get him. Roll for sanity, etc.
Post by: Pancaek on January 02, 2017, 03:27:22 pm
Post by: Devastator on January 02, 2017, 05:08:31 pm
For me, at least, that is the upside.I'm not sure I follow you. The fact that it's worse than the civvie is the upside for you?
The fact that I'm not doomed to live forever at the whims of overpowered god-characters is an upside.
Anyway, my only concern is that there seems to be two layers of defence for one layer of offense for conventional attacks. First you roll for hitting or firing, which both attacks and protects you on a successful attack. Then you get a defense stat on top of that. As far as I can tell, this isn't mirrored for magical attacks, which only have one layer of defense.
Post by: NJW2000 on January 02, 2017, 05:16:13 pm
Post by: Whisperling on January 02, 2017, 05:37:59 pm
Post by: Gentlefish on January 02, 2017, 06:16:58 pm
Post by: Radio Controlled on January 03, 2017, 04:39:26 am
((Knowledge not being a stat is fucked, because it's listed as a stat and doesn't say that it's not a stat anywhere in the doc, but whatever. Moved those ten points to stamina.))You just gotta get on our level Egan, scrubs have no business on the ADVENTURE DRILL :P
Speaking of the adventure drill, if it doesn't have a name yet, we'll wanna think of a nice one for our home base.
Post by: Egan_BW on January 03, 2017, 05:14:40 am
And Dreadful Bore, of course. Shamelessly stolen from a similar pun in Dishonored 2.
Post by: Parisbre56 on January 03, 2017, 05:17:08 am
Post by: Radio Controlled on January 03, 2017, 05:20:59 am
Apparently I forgot to PTW this, and mostly forgot it existed. So PTW.The Turning Point, Rock Bottom, Landslide Victory, Have a Gneiss Day. This stuff writes itself.
And Dreadful Bore, of course. Shamelessly stolen from a similar pun in Dishonored 2.
Either way, whatever name we think of should still sound ok when shortened, cause that always inevitably happens (everybody just called the ship 'the Sword' after all, nobody got time to type out the full thing). Though just calling it 'the Bore' most of the time would certainly be very convenient.
Post by: Parisbre56 on January 03, 2017, 06:47:36 am
Post by: Radio Controlled on January 03, 2017, 06:50:18 am
It's an Underground Stone Bore. Just call it USB.But then every time we wanna do something we'll have to try drilling, fail, flip it upside down, try, fail again, and flip it again before it'll work.
Post by: Parisbre56 on January 03, 2017, 07:14:15 am
Yeah, but at least we'll be reliable and able to dig a hole through most rocks, even those created after the drill was constructed.It's an Underground Stone Bore. Just call it USB.But then every time we wanna do something we'll have to try drilling, fail, flip it upside down, try, fail again, and flip it again before it'll work.
I LOLed with that BTW. Good job.
Post by: Gentlefish on January 03, 2017, 07:59:46 am
I've edited my sheet to reflect this, either way.
Post by: Radio Controlled on January 03, 2017, 08:00:31 am
Post by: Gentlefish on January 03, 2017, 08:00:54 am
Post by: Ozarck on January 03, 2017, 07:09:15 pm
Post by: DoctorMcTaalik on January 03, 2017, 08:14:19 pm
Whirling Drillvish
Ore-o-bore-os
It's an Underground Stone Bore. Just call it USB.But then every time we wanna do something we'll have to try drilling, fail, flip it upside down, try, fail again, and flip it again before it'll work.
Nice.
Post by: Ozarck on January 03, 2017, 08:31:43 pm
Not really. We might be confused as to whether the machine, or certain ... ahem .... long winded fellow ... is being talked about.Apparently I forgot to PTW this, and mostly forgot it existed. So PTW.The Turning Point, Rock Bottom, Landslide Victory, Have a Gneiss Day. This stuff writes itself.
And Dreadful Bore, of course. Shamelessly stolen from a similar pun in Dishonored 2.
Either way, whatever name we think of should still sound ok when shortened, cause that always inevitably happens (everybody just called the ship 'the Sword' after all, nobody got time to type out the full thing). Though just calling it 'the Bore' most of the time would certainly be very convenient.
Anyway, the Fools' Errand is probably the most poetically accurate name for it. A more accurate physical name might be: Half-Assed Giant Drilling Machine Built By Amateurs.
Or, how about The Broken Bit
Names suggested so far:
Dreadful Bore
ADVENTURE DRILL
Underground Stone Bore
The Turning Point
Rock Bottom
Landslide Victory
Have a Gneiss Day
Piece of Schist
Whirling Drillvish
Ore-o-bore-os
Fools' Errand
Half-Assed Giant Drilling Machine Built By Amateurs
The Broken Bit
Great Boring Hunk
Post by: Egan_BW on January 03, 2017, 08:39:26 pm
Post by: Pancaek on January 03, 2017, 08:53:42 pm
Post by: Egan_BW on January 03, 2017, 09:08:11 pm
Post by: Ozarck on January 03, 2017, 09:23:27 pm
On that note, if five or so others are still interested in Oro, with it's awkward mechanics and everything, I would totally keep playing it. Literally building a character is ... well, it appeals to me.
Post by: DoctorMcTaalik on January 03, 2017, 09:40:26 pm
Post by: Ozarck on January 03, 2017, 10:38:45 pm
Post by: syvarris on January 03, 2017, 10:39:20 pm
Doc, I'm pretty sure Dig is replacing Oro as the next game test, but going on its system, structure, and setup, I highly doubt it's the next big thing. We're prolly just gonna get NuER at this point.
Post by: Devastator on January 04, 2017, 12:00:45 am
The digger could be 'The Twisted Spine'
Post by: Egan_BW on January 04, 2017, 12:32:11 am
Post by: Parisbre56 on January 04, 2017, 12:49:49 am
Post by: AoshimaMichio on January 04, 2017, 02:39:55 am
Post by: Ozarck on January 04, 2017, 02:51:00 am
Dreadful Bore
ADVENTURE DRILL
Underground Stone Bore
The Turning Point
Rock Bottom
Landslide Victory
Have a Gneiss Day
Piece of Schist
Whirling Drillvish
Ore-o-bore-os
Fools' Errand
Half-Assed Giant Drilling Machine Built By Amateurs
The Broken Bit
Great Boring Hunk
The Twisted Spine
Big Alice (crawler: Rabbitchaser or Jabberwocky)
Post by: Radio Controlled on January 04, 2017, 03:03:01 am
Should we make wiki for this right from the beginning? This smells like it will be big, considering large number of players can waffle around on the Bore.Personally I was gonna wait until we've been at it for at least a month or so before bringing it up, in case PW still decides that this test wasn't satisfactory and switches to something else. That said, if this does take off and replace ER in scale, a new wiki would certainly be helpful. Then the question remains to either keep working with the ER wiki (keeps things more centralized, but could be messy/conflicting), make a new wiki on the same platform (which I personally like, though it does have some downsides) or switch to a whole 'nother thing.
Quote
Not really. We might be confused as to whether the machine, or certain ... ahem .... long winded fellow ... is being talked about.But Ozarck, with all of our sparkling personalities and deep profoundness, how could that ever come to pass?
Either way, I think my vote would go to Dreadful Bore, at least until something better comes up. Or ADVENTURE DRILL, though I think I'll keep that as a personal moniker for the thing either way.
Post by: Egan_BW on January 04, 2017, 03:10:56 am
Post by: AoshimaMichio on January 04, 2017, 03:32:13 am
Should we make wiki for this right from the beginning? This smells like it will be big, considering large number of players can waffle around on the Bore.Personally I was gonna wait until we've been at it for at least a month or so before bringing it up, in case PW still decides that this test wasn't satisfactory and switches to something else. That said, if this does take off and replace ER in scale, a new wiki would certainly be helpful. Then the question remains to either keep working with the ER wiki (keeps things more centralized, but could be messy/conflicting), make a new wiki on the same platform (which I personally like, though it does have some downsides) or switch to a whole 'nother thing.
If we do, then I prefer not using ER wiki. It's another game after all. Using same platform would be nice, considering we won't need new accounts and templates can be easily copied over where needed.
Do something other than Wikia this time, because fuck Wikia.
What's the problem with it?
Post by: Egan_BW on January 04, 2017, 03:43:52 am
Post by: AoshimaMichio on January 04, 2017, 03:45:44 am
Post by: Radio Controlled on January 04, 2017, 04:43:34 am
Post by: piecewise on January 04, 2017, 11:45:35 am
I'm still interested in Oro, because I love the core concept of it. Plus, excessively complex systems don't scare me.The core concept of the world or the core concept of the system? The world I like, the system less so on a play by post format. I think its too complex and slow in current form. I think it would inherently have to be scaled back to be less ambitious and thus less taxing.
Doc, I'm pretty sure Dig is replacing Oro as the next game test, but going on its system, structure, and setup, I highly doubt it's the next big thing. We're prolly just gonna get NuER at this point.
Post by: Pancaek on January 04, 2017, 01:50:10 pm
Post by: syvarris on January 04, 2017, 02:00:51 pm
Sorta the system--I like the concept of building an amalgamate body with lego demon parts. I do also like the setting of Oro, but I really love the concept the system tries to encapsulate. That said, it is pretty cumbersome, and would be better if it were simplified further.
Since you're apparently responding to stuff in this thread, How big do you intend Dig to be? Is it another transitory little game, like WIZARDS, or is it potentially the Next Big Thing?
@Drill name
People are still arguing over this? Just call it "The Boar" and be done with it.
Post by: Radio Controlled on January 04, 2017, 02:44:44 pm
@Drill nameI'm wavering between "But what do wild swine have to do with anything?!" and "You bore." so I'll just make a compromise.
People are still arguing over this? Just call it "The Boar" and be done with it.
"But syv, what do bored swine have to do with anything?"
Post by: piecewise on January 04, 2017, 06:42:01 pm
@PiecewiseI dunno. The problem with saying "This is the next big thing" is that I don't know what the next big thing is. This could be it. Or a changed oro. Or maybe mecha xcom. Or 70's lovecraftian shadow of the colossus. However, in terms of something like ER I feel like DIG is closest in terms of being a big world of lots of opportunities to fuck around in. The ORO is basically a dungeon crawl and Wizard's is fun but doing in depth writing for lots of people would kill me.
Sorta the system--I like the concept of building an amalgamate body with lego demon parts. I do also like the setting of Oro, but I really love the concept the system tries to encapsulate. That said, it is pretty cumbersome, and would be better if it were simplified further.
Since you're apparently responding to stuff in this thread, How big do you intend Dig to be? Is it another transitory little game, like WIZARDS, or is it potentially the Next Big Thing?
@Drill name
People are still arguing over this? Just call it "The Boar" and be done with it.
But yeah, I think ORO's system would be a lot more managable if it was just like...5 parts to each person.
Post by: syvarris on January 04, 2017, 06:57:46 pm
...I'd still love to hear more about the SotC one.
Post by: Devastator on January 04, 2017, 07:02:47 pm
Post by: IronyOwl on January 04, 2017, 07:37:13 pm
...yeah, gonna need a chart while I figure out whether to make an ascetic or molemonk. Or civvie with a transcend bonus.
"or you could play something useful that doesn't irritate Cthulhu for a living"
AAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Post by: Egan_BW on January 04, 2017, 07:53:38 pm
Post by: Pancaek on January 04, 2017, 08:02:51 pm
Post by: IronyOwl on January 04, 2017, 09:20:43 pm
Prototype acquired.
Post by: piecewise on January 04, 2017, 09:26:27 pm
(http://i.imgur.com/murZfgU.png)Man, that really demonstrates how much of a glass freaking cannon Sy is.
Prototype acquired.
You should stop using video games that I really like as examples, it makes things so much more frustrating when you don't actually run the things. Shadow of the Colossus, XCOM, Dark Souls... Veh.I can tell you it resulted in me asking myself "Alright, how do I map godzilla?"
...I'd still love to hear more about the SotC one.
The answer is "Not with MSpaint." Mostly because dynamically shifting environments are quite silly to try and map out via a static map. I figured out a way to do it though. You could climb godzilla from toe to nose and the system can handle things like his body parts moving while you do it.
But man, when you set down and start doing the work with godzilla as the testbed, you realize just how big the fucker is. I have your average climb speed at 20 odd feet a turn on him (Climb speed is constant, stamina/grip loss is what varies) and it would take 15 or so turns to climb up him like that. Luckily you could probably jump in from a building top and lower that, otherwise you're definitely gonna have to rest on his body somewhere.
Post by: IronyOwl on January 04, 2017, 10:20:56 pm
Man, that really demonstrates how much of a glass freaking cannon Sy is.He's a lot tankier than he looks because Fight reduces damage as well as dealing it, and his Endure is also pretty good. You'd need +73 Fight or +28 Blast to be physically capable of damaging him, and even then only once every ten thousand rolls (2+90 vs 20+72 or 2+45 vs 20+28). Unless I'm misunderstanding how weapon bonuses work.
That said, yes, at some point he is going to be the scimitar guy from Indiana Jones.
Post by: Gentlefish on January 04, 2017, 11:01:31 pm
Post by: Radio Controlled on January 05, 2017, 04:48:37 am
Ooh, I like this. That probably means I'm gonna have to make a chart for it.
...yeah, gonna need a chart while I figure out whether to make an ascetic or molemonk. Or civvie with a transcend bonus.
"or you could play something useful that doesn't irritate Cthulhu for a living"
AAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Come join us psychics Irony, and you'll have all the esoteric self-harming magics you truly desire.
(Also because I'm likely to get myself killed in the first dive, so there'll be a vacancy for prime psychobastard.)
Yeah, the different starting classes are still -somewhat- uneven, when comparing eg. Engineer to deathless (+10 from tool vs +20 from weapon and +10 flat stat bonus), but that might even out later on as people get better gear. Personally I think just giving every class a +10 or +20 stat bonus (to 1 stat or divided) would be easiest, since people are building their own starting gear already anyways. Then just deduct 5 for the Dau and mole due to needing eye disk, and maybe deduct 10 more for mole due to claw weapon.Man, that really demonstrates how much of a glass freaking cannon Sy is.He's a lot tankier than he looks because Fight reduces damage as well as dealing it, and his Endure is also pretty good. You'd need +73 Fight or +28 Blast to be physically capable of damaging him, and even then only once every ten thousand rolls (2+90 vs 20+72 or 2+45 vs 20+28). Unless I'm misunderstanding how weapon bonuses work.
That said, yes, at some point he is going to be the scimitar guy from Indiana Jones.
Post by: Egan_BW on January 05, 2017, 05:09:20 am
Ooh, I like this. That probably means I'm gonna have to make a chart for it.
...yeah, gonna need a chart while I figure out whether to make an ascetic or molemonk. Or civvie with a transcend bonus.
"or you could play something useful that doesn't irritate Cthulhu for a living"
AAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Come join us psychics Irony, and you'll have all the esoteric self-harming magics you truly desire.
Nuuu, join our burgeoning engineering corp! Our works will be much more explosive than some dive.
Post by: Devastator on January 05, 2017, 08:05:16 am
Okay, that's pretty darn neat and useful.
It also demonstrates the vast superiority of magic over physical attacks, because magic only has one layer of defence instead of two. ;-)
Post by: syvarris on January 05, 2017, 01:42:08 pm
Post by: piecewise on January 05, 2017, 03:01:14 pm
Yeah, but you seem to forget that using magic literally summons interdimensional demons into your skull. Or, into the world around you. So yes, they are easier to connect with, because after you do one the fucking balrog kicks down your door.Okay, that's pretty darn neat and useful.
It also demonstrates the vast superiority of magic over physical attacks, because magic only has one layer of defence instead of two. ;-)
I'm also fully expecting my char to get killed, I'm just hoping I can get some transcend equipment first so that I can reincarnate without assistance. Biggest obstacle there is prepping a body, so I'm tempted to shift some points from recovery to build. Not sure, though. Depends on whether you *need* to repair some already existent vessel, rather than just forge one out of the ether.If there's a usable body just laying around, you don't need to make a new one. But you can just incarnate and create a body out of almost anything with the build roll.
Post by: Radio Controlled on January 05, 2017, 03:14:13 pm
Cue accidentally demons everywhere inside the drill turn three.Yeah, but you seem to forget that using magic literally summons interdimensional demons into your skull. Or, into the world around you. So yes, they are easier to connect with, because after you do one the fucking balrog kicks down your door.Okay, that's pretty darn neat and useful.It also demonstrates the vast superiority of magic over physical attacks, because magic only has one layer of defence instead of two. ;-)
Post by: Devastator on January 05, 2017, 03:20:56 pm
If there's a usable body just laying around, you don't need to make a new one. But you can just incarnate and create a body out of almost anything with the build roll.
Hmm.
So what are the rolls required, if someone shanks you, to just reappear in the next turn?
Post by: AoshimaMichio on January 05, 2017, 03:32:04 pm
Yeah, but you seem to forget that using magic literally summons interdimensional demons into your skull. Or, into the world around you. So yes, they are easier to connect with, because after you do one the fucking balrog kicks down your door.Cue accidentally demons everywhere inside the drill turn three.
Use more magic to fix the problem.
Post by: Radio Controlled on January 05, 2017, 03:39:15 pm
That's like trying to douse the fire you accidentally started by throwing the rest of your matches at it.Yeah, but you seem to forget that using magic literally summons interdimensional demons into your skull. Or, into the world around you. So yes, they are easier to connect with, because after you do one the fucking balrog kicks down your door.Cue accidentally demons everywhere inside the drill turn three.
Use more magic to fix the problem.
Post by: piecewise on January 05, 2017, 08:42:27 pm
Next turn? You can't. It takes several turns to reappear, more if you do everything yourself.If there's a usable body just laying around, you don't need to make a new one. But you can just incarnate and create a body out of almost anything with the build roll.
Hmm.
So what are the rolls required, if someone shanks you, to just reappear in the next turn?
But if you get shanked you have to try a build roll to repair yourself up to livable, and thats a turn. Then a transcend roll to pull yourself out of the sea, thats a turn. Then another transcend roll to put yourself into the body again. All while losing mind points and potentially summoning creatures that will appear both in the sea and out of it and attack you or eat your body. And you lose mind points when you incarnate so can't realistically do it more than once in any quick succession.
It's doable and gets easier as you get more powerful, but its not something you can just spam.
Post by: syvarris on January 05, 2017, 09:11:48 pm
The other tests are all jokes, frankly. Transcendence equal to your mind (which is lowering constantly anyway), build equal to the body you're making (which can be 2, for autosuccess regardless of skill), and transcendence equal to that body (which won't be higher than mind if you're incarnating, so the point is moot). That's three checks which are going to be autosuccesses for anyone with even decent Transcendence.
Also, the mind drain is one point per hour, so if each of those checks only requires one turn you won't even take any mind damage from the experience aside from the final step, and even if you do it's trivial to have a Recovery score which is a significant chunk of your Mind. Hell, rules as written imply you can just get into a fight and afterward you'll immediately regenerate mind points if you survive. So the only difficulty here is from the deep sea creatures, though I'm gonna guess they're hell for anyone who doesn't have lots of transcendence equipment.
Changing the body to subtract from mind rather than not subtracting anything for incarnation was a good change, though.
Post by: piecewise on January 05, 2017, 09:50:32 pm
Oh, so you don't even need to do the difficulty 50 transcendence check to get into Level 3 Deep Sea? I guess I don't need any transcendence gear after all.You do, but I was assuming that was understood and he was talking about body repair and stuff.
The other tests are all jokes, frankly. Transcendence equal to your mind (which is lowering constantly anyway), build equal to the body you're making (which can be 2, for autosuccess regardless of skill), and transcendence equal to that body (which won't be higher than mind if you're incarnating, so the point is moot). That's three checks which are going to be autosuccesses for anyone with even decent Transcendence.
Also, the mind drain is one point per hour, so if each of those checks only requires one turn you won't even take any mind damage from the experience aside from the final step, and even if you do it's trivial to have a Recovery score which is a significant chunk of your Mind. Hell, rules as written imply you can just get into a fight and afterward you'll immediately regenerate mind points if you survive. So the only difficulty here is from the deep sea creatures, though I'm gonna guess they're hell for anyone who doesn't have lots of transcendence equipment.
Changing the body to subtract from mind rather than not subtracting anything for incarnation was a good change, though.
Well, what do you think would make it more difficult but not unreasonably so.
We could make it so that only someone who has made it to the 6th level of the deep sea before an incarnate.
Post by: Egan_BW on January 05, 2017, 10:18:47 pm
Post by: syvarris on January 05, 2017, 10:29:24 pm
First and most obvious remedy is to make the checks all have modified difficulty, rather than just being "Your mind" or "The new vessel's Body". In the main thread, you told MJ that building a six armed body would require a check of 30+Body Stat; why should it be any cheaper if you're in the Deep Sea? Similarly, any character who's focused on Transcendence will have thirty points in it at least. Make the mind check have a base of twenty or thirty or something. Maybe more, if you wanna lock it to higher T people.
Maybe say that when you're dead, you can only take one action per hour, which means you take one mind damage per action. That at least ensures people will be hurt before incarnating, while still allowing someone else to come in and rescue them. Another option would be to say that when you Incarnate a new body, you take permanent damage to your mind stat to pay for it; that'll result in everyone incarnating into 1 Body bodies, but it's still a massive nerf to incarnation.
Actually, having permanent stat damage upon death would be a great idea--the Roa Deathless entry mentions how they're continually revived until either the body or mind is broken, but the system as-is doesn't cause you any permanent harm. Making death actually harmful would make that entry make sense. It would also make sense if you can't possess arbitrarily high Body bodies, instead being capped at your original Body (which lowers with every death); this at least means nobody will engage in shenanigans like I am, where you start with 1 Body and then get placed into a new custom body with 20 Body or something.
@Errant Ocelot
The other option is "Everyone is immortal", which while perhaps an interesting game concept, is not at all what this system is built for. Kinda sad, I think it would be neat to see an ER style game which is built to handle everyone being capable of reincarnation.
Post by: piecewise on January 05, 2017, 10:41:28 pm
Let's not fully turn this into "Dau and moles are immortal, everyone else is chunky salsa as Dev wills it", shall we? :PThat is the major problem. Ressurrection, if nothing else, should be SOMEWHAT accessible, and Incarnation should be the realm only of the heavy transendence people. Having someone put you in a new body requires other people to do things for you and is thus less abusable. Its like being healed from negative hitpoints or brought back in ER. But being able to die and then forcibly reform a body and incarnate again is fuckign doc manhattan levels. So having ressurrection be fairly easy while making incarnation hard is basically exactly what it should be.
That would mean that you need a little less than ~70 Transcendence to Incarnate, since Level 6 is a DC 80 check. Not that that's a bad thing, necessarily.I think harder rolls for incarnating combined with damage from death is probably best.
First and most obvious remedy is to make the checks all have modified difficulty, rather than just being "Your mind" or "The new vessel's Body". In the main thread, you told MJ that building a six armed body would require a check of 30+Body Stat; why should it be any cheaper if you're in the Deep Sea? Similarly, any character who's focused on Transcendence will have thirty points in it at least. Make the mind check have a base of twenty or thirty or something. Maybe more, if you wanna lock it to higher T people.
Maybe say that when you're dead, you can only take one action per hour, which means you take one mind damage per action. That at least ensures people will be hurt before incarnating, while still allowing someone else to come in and rescue them. Another option would be to say that when you Incarnate a new body, you take permanent damage to your mind stat to pay for it; that'll result in everyone incarnating into 1 Body bodies, but it's still a massive nerf to incarnation.
Actually, having permanent stat damage upon death would be a great idea--the Roa Deathless entry mentions how they're continually revived until either the body or mind is broken, but the system as-is doesn't cause you any permanent harm. Making death actually harmful would make that entry make sense. It would also make sense if you can't possess arbitrarily high Body bodies, instead being capped at your original Body (which lowers with every death); this at least means nobody will engage in shenanigans like I am, where you start with 1 Body and then get placed into a new custom body with 20 Body or something.
@Errant Ocelot
The other option is "Everyone is immortal", which while perhaps an interesting game concept, is not at all what this system is built for. Kinda sad, I think it would be neat to see an ER style game which is built to handle everyone being capable of reincarnation.
The idea of ER where everyone can always incarnate is...wait I have a game like that....I think it's called Revolver or repeater. Remind me about it and I'll find it when I return home.
I'm gonna edit the rules a bit.
Post by: Egan_BW on January 05, 2017, 10:54:57 pm
PW, is knowledge useful for anything other than building things? Like coming up with new combat techniques or something.
Also, knowledge can't be transferred between players, but wouldn't it make some sense if someone with knowledge could help train someone to get that same knowledge? Like, if someone gets all that's needed for a particular thing, they could help out someone else and they'd only need half knowledge?
Mostly ask these questions because it seems likely that people with no Building ability will end up with Knowledge and have nothing to spend it on.
alsoalso! Does the Bore have some kind of PA system so we can communicate between decks?
Post by: piecewise on January 05, 2017, 11:20:40 pm
Could be fun to have a game where all the players are immortal angels, and can only get banished to the home could place or whatever. Then when the Permakilling weapons come out, you know Shit Just Got Real.Knowledge exists basically as a gameplay thing to allow the creation of new stuff and player based economies of sorts without having to create recipies and gather up garbage. Thats why its non-transferable and why you can't just remake things over and over. Because knowledge is considered to be not only the ideas needed but the goods.
PW, is knowledge useful for anything other than building things? Like coming up with new combat techniques or something.
Also, knowledge can't be transferred between players, but wouldn't it make some sense if someone with knowledge could help train someone to get that same knowledge? Like, if someone gets all that's needed for a particular thing, they could help out someone else and they'd only need half knowledge?
Mostly ask these questions because it seems likely that people with no Building ability will end up with Knowledge and have nothing to spend it on.
alsoalso! Does the Bore have some kind of PA system so we can communicate between decks?
and knowledge is gained via looking for knowledge on that thing, rather than passively via anything else. A combat technique would basically have to function like any other piece of equipment, giving bonuses, except it would be "built" using fight or blast and knowledge.
We could do that, really. Have you create techiques with some bonus you want and then I say "ok, you need this much knowledge to make it, and it will cost this much stamina to use."
But I worry about that causing Tinker Syndrome.
Also yes, the Bore has a PA system. There are speaker/microphone boxes in most rooms so you can talk among them. But it is directed to a ROOM, not a person, so everyone in the room will hear it.
Post by: piecewise on January 06, 2017, 12:05:03 am
Post by: Egan_BW on January 06, 2017, 12:22:38 am
So, use 40 Knowledge to learn the Technique Parkour, which acts as an item that gives me +10 move, but costs 2 stamina to activate.
Post by: Devastator on January 06, 2017, 12:26:11 am
Post by: Egan_BW on January 06, 2017, 12:33:10 am
I like the idea of having to leave being part of your abilities to resurrect. Permanent stat loss is pretty harsh in this system, but makes sense. Getting your mind snipped from your body isn't something you just walk away from, unless you're really powerful.
Post by: piecewise on January 06, 2017, 12:53:43 am
So would one of the things I could do with techniques be that I can learn Parkour, which gives me a bonus +10 Move at the cost of an extra 2 stamina per turn?I feel the tinker overtaking me already. The balancing....the balancing!
So, use 40 Knowledge to learn the Technique Parkour, which acts as an item that gives me +10 move, but costs 2 stamina to activate.
But yes, thats the general idea.
What comes to mind would be making reincarnation worth 5 points loss of transcendance after succeeding, with any mind damage taken for the duration while you're out being permanent, because some of you doesn't come back. Transcendance check would 20+ half your highest ability, or the equivalent in dive levels of the deep sea. Build check would be 10+ half your total attributes for the new body. You could leave points behind intentionally if you feel the check would be too hard.I would think 5 points of any random stat taken per traumatic death would be more reasonable. Because otherwise we end up targeting stat loss towards one particular kind of player while combat focused players can be dragged out and stuck in new bodies constantly with no downside.
Post by: Egan_BW on January 06, 2017, 12:59:53 am
And hey mate, you're the one who included a Build stat, made it the only reliable way to get most items, and tied in a whole Knowledge system to limit it. The only explanation is that you secretly love this, because you brought it on yourself. :P
Post by: Devastator on January 06, 2017, 01:32:24 am
What comes to mind would be making reincarnation worth 5 points loss of transcendance after succeeding, with any mind damage taken for the duration while you're out being permanent, because some of you doesn't come back. Transcendance check would 20+ half your highest ability, or the equivalent in dive levels of the deep sea. Build check would be 10+ half your total attributes for the new body. You could leave points behind intentionally if you feel the check would be too hard.I would think 5 points of any random stat taken per traumatic death would be more reasonable. Because otherwise we end up targeting stat loss towards one particular kind of player while combat focused players can be dragged out and stuck in new bodies constantly with no downside.
I thought if you didn't have the transcend, you aren't coming back. (That is, it would be targetting the stat that you had to have in order to resurrect at all.) If that's not how it is, sure, sounds fine... although, as a penalty, 5 points isn't that much, given the 100 points to start off with and the ease of acquiring +10 or better bonuses through equipment.
Post by: piecewise on January 06, 2017, 01:49:10 am
You couldn't incarnate, but you can be resurrected by others even if you have 0 transcend.What comes to mind would be making reincarnation worth 5 points loss of transcendance after succeeding, with any mind damage taken for the duration while you're out being permanent, because some of you doesn't come back. Transcendance check would 20+ half your highest ability, or the equivalent in dive levels of the deep sea. Build check would be 10+ half your total attributes for the new body. You could leave points behind intentionally if you feel the check would be too hard.I would think 5 points of any random stat taken per traumatic death would be more reasonable. Because otherwise we end up targeting stat loss towards one particular kind of player while combat focused players can be dragged out and stuck in new bodies constantly with no downside.
I thought if you didn't have the transcend, you aren't coming back. (That is, it would be targetting the stat that you had to have in order to resurrect at all.) If that's not how it is, sure, sounds fine.
Post by: Devastator on January 06, 2017, 02:27:01 am
You couldn't incarnate, but you can be resurrected by others even if you have 0 transcend.
Hmm, so the only way to be safe from resurrection is the Engineheart archetype.
Post by: piecewise on January 06, 2017, 02:57:42 am
Right now his system damages mind, transcend, and whatever your highest stat is. This introduces some extra danger to minmaxed characters, like me or syv.Hmm well lets try the use of knowledge for "techniques" then shall we? But be prepared to suck some stamina costs. 2 seems too low for me by far.
And hey mate, you're the one who included a Build stat, made it the only reliable way to get most items, and tied in a whole Knowledge system to limit it. The only explanation is that you secretly love this, because you brought it on yourself. :P
As far as the other ideas related to resurrection, I think it's fair to change it to be similar to what dev was talking about. I'm gonna modify it tomorrow.
Safe? Well if you didn't want to go back you can just say so.You couldn't incarnate, but you can be resurrected by others even if you have 0 transcend.
Hmm, so the only way to be safe from resurrection is the Engineheart archetype.
Post by: Pancaek on January 06, 2017, 05:32:50 am
But I do have a tendency to somehow get into these situations where even a high leveled character with decent stats won't help me *coughnukedoorcough*, which worries me a bit.
Post by: Radio Controlled on January 06, 2017, 05:53:20 am
All this talk of resurrection has got me pondering my choice of playing engineheart. I mean sure, I've got a fairly healthy endure stat already and a bit of body should something get through, so I probably won't die all that fast.Could always switch to civvie with +10 endurance (or another class of course). Lose the transcend resistance, gain chance for resurrection/incarnation after death.
But I do have a tendency to somehow get into these situations where even a high leveled character with decent stats won't help me *coughnukedoorcough*, which worries me a bit.
Or check if perhaps other methods exist/could be made to revive you, like a memory bank back-up unit or something.
Post by: Pancaek on January 06, 2017, 05:59:27 am
Could always switch to civvie with +10 endurance (or another class of course). Lose the transcend resistance, gain chance for resurrection/incarnation after death.I'm just going to roll with it, because surely a situation like my personal 'nam from ER won't show up a second time. Right?
Or check if perhaps other methods exist/could be made to revive you, like a memory bank back-up unit or something.
Post by: Radio Controlled on January 06, 2017, 06:00:50 am
I wouldn't worry about it. I'm sure it won't be nukes this time...Could always switch to civvie with +10 endurance (or another class of course). Lose the transcend resistance, gain chance for resurrection/incarnation after death.I'm just going to roll with it, because surely a situation like my personal 'nam from ER won't show up a second time. Right?
Or check if perhaps other methods exist/could be made to revive you, like a memory bank back-up unit or something.
Post by: The Lupanian on January 06, 2017, 06:01:54 am
Post by: Rautherdir on January 06, 2017, 08:01:26 am
Can we avoid the high risk of death from Giant’s/Titan’s/Behemoth’s Engine installations by installing one of them into a body and then being resurrected or otherwise transferred into it?
Can I gather knowledge to make a reference guide? (+x bonus to find rolls made searching for information in the archive)
Post by: Devastator on January 06, 2017, 10:23:13 am
So, I have two questions:
Can we avoid the high risk of death from Giant’s/Titan’s/Behemoth’s Engine installations by installing one of them into a body and then being resurrected or otherwise transferred into it?
I don't know the answer to this, but that seems like a plan to avoid death that requires dying.
Post by: syvarris on January 06, 2017, 10:34:54 am
As far as the other ideas related to resurrection, I think it's fair to change it to be similar to what dev was talking about. I'm gonna modify it tomorrow.
What? But Dev came up with the worst version! He specifically designed it to punish gameplay he personally dislike, namely specialized people and people with high transcendence! Dev is tantamount to a troll right now.
I still think it would be best if you A: could not replace the Body stat by resurrection (because that makes starting Body very nearly worthless), and B: lose only Body and Mind upon resurrection, because that is less crippling and matches the backstory of Roa Deathless. Also, making the gradual mind damage permanent is downright cruel, without actually fixing the overpowered nature of anything--the people who stay dead for ten hours aren't the ones who need a nerf, it's the people who get rezzed within an hour that do.
Post by: Egan_BW on January 06, 2017, 10:37:07 am
The fact that you have to disconnect from your body to go to level 6 seems to imply to me that humans are 6 levels deep. (Body on level 0, mind extends from levels 1 through 5.)
Post by: Devastator on January 06, 2017, 10:48:33 am
As far as the other ideas related to resurrection, I think it's fair to change it to be similar to what dev was talking about. I'm gonna modify it tomorrow.
What? But Dev came up with the worst version! He specifically designed it to punish gameplay he personally dislike, namely specialized people and people with high transcendence! Dev is tantamount to a troll right now.
I'm assuming that it won't be transcendance, but instead be a random stat. I wanted transcendance because I thought that would be the prerequisite for resurrection, and wanted to make subsequent resurrections harder. As for the other cost, I thought it would be basically base cost + level adjustment.
Post by: Rautherdir on January 06, 2017, 11:00:57 am
As far as the other ideas related to resurrection, I think it's fair to change it to be similar to what dev was talking about. I'm gonna modify it tomorrow.
What? But Dev came up with the worst version! He specifically designed it to punish gameplay he personally dislike, namely specialized people and people with high transcendence! Dev is tantamount to a troll right now.
I still think it would be best if you A: could not replace the Body stat by resurrection (because that makes starting Body very nearly worthless), and B: lose only Body and Mind upon resurrection, because that is less crippling and matches the backstory of Roa Deathless. Also, making the gradual mind damage permanent is downright cruel, without actually fixing the overpowered nature of anything--the people who stay dead for ten hours aren't the ones who need a nerf, it's the people who get rezzed within an hour that do.
A) It makes sense that the new body would have stats derived from the success of building/repairing the body. In my view, the starting body just keeps us alive until we can get a better one.
B) Resurrection is done by other people. Incarnation is all you. I do have a suggestion for how to nerf incarnation:
1. Actions affecting at least 3 levels away from you in the deep sea always attract monsters.
2. Whenever you take mind damage, every ability you have leveled above (60 - [damage x 10]) generates a roll with (damage x 10) difficulty to avoid losing (damage) ability points. (Those equations are guesswork. I have no idea what kind of damage we would be taking, these equations assume low damage numbers.)
Or something like that. That helps prevent quick self-resurrections. It doesn't affect resurrections that much if we do resurrection with more than one person.
Post by: Radio Controlled on January 06, 2017, 12:04:42 pm
Personally, I do think that we should try to ensure that certain stats (mostly body) don't become almost useless (or at least inferior to the other stats), which I think would happen if bodystat was purely an attribute of the body you inhabit, and making new bodies is pretty easy.
Difficult resurrection could help with this, but I don't think that'd cut it (and is easy to deal with through some cooperation I suspect). Maybe limit perks from bodies to non-stat things.
Prevent death becoming too cheap. I think eating some permanent stat and/or attribute loss on death would be reasonable, though how much and from what stats I'm not sure. Maybe just deduct some points from a random (non-zero?) stat, and increase the amount you loose per death.
Making incarnation difficult, but keeping assisted resurrection doable.
Maybe just add a flat number to the requirements to make it difficult enough without harming normal rezzing.
Oh, and the starting classes imbalance. Already talked about that though, might just be me.
Anyways, just some stream of thought, most of this is probably useless/repeat of things already said.
Post by: syvarris on January 06, 2017, 12:09:13 pm
Spoiler: Radio responded while I was writing this (click to show/hide)
Post by: Radio Controlled on January 06, 2017, 12:14:46 pm
Post by: syvarris on January 06, 2017, 12:21:16 pm
Yeah, starting classes are extremely unbalanced. I've just been trying to ignore it, lest I go off like I've been doing with resurrection/incarnation. Plus there's tons of other little things I'm tempted to go off about
Your recap of flaws is pretty much my understanding, yeah. To state my ideal system:
- You cannot inhabit a new body with Body greater than your original Body. If you try, the new body's Body is lowered to match.
- On every revival, you permanently lose some number of Body and Mind points, probably a fairly low number. For the purposes of the prior point, permanent Body losses are considered to subtract from your original Body.
- Incarnation, while not being significantly more difficult if you have the stats (no Deep Sea level 6 needed), drains more points than normal resurrection.
- There are no penalties based upon how long you wait, or to any skills.
A penalty for rezzing into a new body could be good, but it would have to be extremely harsh to balance replacing body. If I lose ten mind points, but saved fifteen by simply not spending any on Body, well, I still came out ahead. Maybe incarnation into your own (original) body could be quite easy, so that it's accessible to people without specialized incarnation builds, but with the penalty that you obviously need to have high starting Body for it to survive.
Post by: piecewise on January 06, 2017, 01:26:33 pm
All this talk of resurrection has got me pondering my choice of playing engineheart. I mean sure, I've got a fairly healthy endure stat already and a bit of body should something get through, so I probably won't die all that fast.You can be soul jar'd.
But I do have a tendency to somehow get into these situations where even a high leveled character with decent stats won't help me *coughnukedoorcough*, which worries me a bit.
Not really on topic, but if when people die, they go to the deep sea, and when people are in the deep sea, monsters come, we can expect monsters to show at death like flies to a corpse, right? Sounds awesome if you ask me.Only when people start attempting resurrection do they start showing up in the real world.They show up in the deep sea immediately, but not in the real world. Otherwise I think humanity would have ended long ago in a sort of demon death spiral.
So, I have two questions:I suppose? But wouldn't it make more sense to just try and get implanted and then if it fails resurrected into that body?
Can we avoid the high risk of death from Giant’s/Titan’s/Behemoth’s Engine installations by installing one of them into a body and then being resurrected or otherwise transferred into it?
Can I gather knowledge to make a reference guide? (+x bonus to find rolls made searching for information in the archive)
Sure.
Alright so here's my idea for how to handle this stuff related to resurrection and such.
When you die you lose 5 stat points from a random stat. Slow tick mind loss isn't permanent.
Building the new body means rolling 1/2 the total stat points of the body, +10 (Ie starting character would be 60)
Putting the mind in means rolling equal to or higher than the mind points +30
Each subsequent resurrection is done at +10 difficulty to all related rolls. Only counts for traumatic deaths.
Stats or mind can be intentionally lowered to allow rolls to be successful, but stats cannot be HIGHER than in the original body. This doesn't count equipment or engines.
Incarnation is tricky because throwing a lot of penalties on it basically makes high level magic unusable because they are required to die in order to use it. So basically it's gonna work like this:
If you purposefully die via going to level 6, incarnating works the same as what I mentioned above but with no penalties. If you died via damage, then it works as above, with penalties and increasing difficulty, and you have to do everything yourself.
Of course I now have people whispering to me that the entire system is broken and that nothing works. And we're like 3 posts into the game.
Post by: Pancaek on January 06, 2017, 01:29:49 pm
Quote
Of course I now have people whispering to me that the entire system is broken and that nothing works. And we're like 3 posts into the game. I'm starting to get the "No one is ever happy, so why bother" blues here.
All talk of balancing aside, maybe we should just play a mission and see how it turns out before we start tearing the system apart. Unbalanced or not, as long as the system doesn't get in the way of fun I don't think it will really become a problem. If we play a mission and people aren't having any fun because of the system, then we've got a problem.
-edit-: what I'm trying to say is, let's just play a mission and see what happens in practice.
Post by: piecewise on January 06, 2017, 01:40:47 pm
1. I've changed the outnumbered modifier so that you get -10 for every enemy past one on one (Works on enemies too)
2. You can only deal damage to one enemy per turn. Any other successful rolls just avoid damage.
This way high powered enemies can be fought with numbers and lower powered teammates won't be insta-gibbed upon attempting to help out in a fight.
Post by: Parisbre56 on January 06, 2017, 02:57:34 pm
Also, to those of you trying to balance stuff, you could just make death so bad reincarnation is only worth it on really high level chars or if you're cut off from the drill and desperately need the manpower. For everything else, you can just accept death and start with a new character.
Also also, sometimes I think piecewise might be better off leaving some things vague. People can't abuse flaws they don't know about. And it's not like balance is super important in a game that's not primarily PvP. People come here to have fun with the story and the world, not to prove they are the very best, like no one ever was.
Post by: Egan_BW on January 06, 2017, 03:05:45 pm
- How long is a rest to restore Stamina, in hours? (More specifically, to restore my 36 Stamina, if that matters.)
- Do I still have to sleep 8 hours a day, or does it suffice to simply rest to regain stamina?
- If yes to above, what are the effects of sleep deprivation?
- Does sleeping restore Stamina? (I assume yes, but asking is safer. :P)
- Do Enginehearts sleep? Thoughtful Corpses?
- Is there any formula to how long it takes to fabricate items, or are you going to come up with a figure for each item?
- Is there even a day/night cycle down here? Do people keep track of "days", even without a sun? If so, how long is a day?
- Is it possible to make a weapon that immobilized enemies? (eg a lasso or a bola gun to tie people up. Worm Harpoon is kinda this, but only decreases Move.)
- If yes to above, can in immobilized enemy still use Blast/Fight to defend?
And yes, a valid response to some of these questions is "I regret giving Build times in hours."
Post by: Radio Controlled on January 06, 2017, 05:00:01 pm
Also also, sometimes I think piecewise might be better off leaving some things vague. People can't abuse flaws they don't know about. And it's not like balance is super important in a game that's not primarily PvP. People come here to have fun with the story and the world, not to prove they are the very best, like no one ever was.But Paris, to annoy PW is our real test, to strain him is our cause!
Anyways, you're right that we shouldn't be stressing the small points, but some things didn't seem like they'd work the way pw intended when compared to how the rules were written. And it's probably easier to fix some things now than when it's been underway a while already. Either way, I think we're good to go now, so we can see how this works out for a while (and just in time for
Quote
demon death spiralThat sounds like a metal album. Or a very scary sort of contraceptive.
Post by: Ozarck on January 06, 2017, 06:02:18 pm
And then there's us replaceable meatshields.
Post by: Egan_BW on January 06, 2017, 06:13:05 pm
There may be some disparity in Archetype power, but everyone can choose what archetype they want at character creation, so it's fully voluntary. As seen, for example, by Dev's character.
So yeah, not perfect, but honestly not in the same way as ER.
Post by: Devastator on January 06, 2017, 06:37:24 pm
Of course I now have people whispering to me that the entire system is broken and that nothing works. And we're like 3 posts into the game.
Seems fine to me. There are no omnipotent NPCs, and the more complete layout of the borer is interesting me with the possibilities of tactical combat. All else that's gotta occur is murder.
Post by: The Lupanian on January 06, 2017, 06:57:01 pm
All else that's gotta occur is murder.Leave that to me
Post by: piecewise on January 06, 2017, 07:08:55 pm
Questions: (With apologies. I promise there's not much Tinker here.)A few.
- How long is a rest to restore Stamina, in hours? (More specifically, to restore my 36 Stamina, if that matters.)
- Do I still have to sleep 8 hours a day, or does it suffice to simply rest to regain stamina?
- If yes to above, what are the effects of sleep deprivation?
- Does sleeping restore Stamina? (I assume yes, but asking is safer. :P)
- Do Enginehearts sleep? Thoughtful Corpses?
- Is there any formula to how long it takes to fabricate items, or are you going to come up with a figure for each item?
- Is there even a day/night cycle down here? Do people keep track of "days", even without a sun? If so, how long is a day?
- Is it possible to make a weapon that immobilized enemies? (eg a lasso or a bola gun to tie people up. Worm Harpoon is kinda this, but only decreases Move.)
- If yes to above, can in immobilized enemy still use Blast/Fight to defend?
And yes, a valid response to some of these questions is "I regret giving Build times in hours."
Rest
Yes
Both do.
No formula now, but if I were to make one it would probably be something like just whatever the bonus it gives in hours.
Not really, but on the map it takes roughly 5 hours to dig through one block.
Yes, What it would probably do is actually do something like force a move roll to try and escape and be able to move again
Depends how it is immobilized.
Post by: piecewise on January 06, 2017, 07:17:09 pm
Post by: Gentlefish on January 06, 2017, 08:57:50 pm
The disparity in ER was mostly down to who joined earlier and got more XP/Tokens. Here there is no direct XP, just items, and most items are intended to be Built by players, AKA me and MJ. The growth of power is governed and determined mainly by us engies.
There may be some disparity in Archetype power, but everyone can choose what archetype they want at character creation, so it's fully voluntary. As seen, for example, by Dev's character.
So yeah, not perfect, but honestly not in the same way as ER.
I'm a builder. Fite me.
Post by: Egan_BW on January 06, 2017, 10:09:02 pm
Okay.The disparity in ER was mostly down to who joined earlier and got more XP/Tokens. Here there is no direct XP, just items, and most items are intended to be Built by players, AKA me and MJ. The growth of power is governed and determined mainly by us engies.
There may be some disparity in Archetype power, but everyone can choose what archetype they want at character creation, so it's fully voluntary. As seen, for example, by Dev's character.
So yeah, not perfect, but honestly not in the same way as ER.
I'm a builder. Fite me.
Post by: piecewise on January 06, 2017, 10:50:52 pm
I've also made plans for core system changes if things don't work out with the current system. The core system would look pretty different but the actual mechanics would be much the same. It would basically involve changing things to a d100 roll for everything, something like our current Wizards setup but with bigger numbers.
Post by: Parisbre56 on January 07, 2017, 01:11:00 pm
Post by: Pancaek on January 07, 2017, 01:15:05 pm
Post by: Radio Controlled on January 07, 2017, 03:08:54 pm
Could someone please explain to me what the difference between an equipment and a technique is? I mean, why would I build a piece of equipment if I can just build a technique that does the same? Or do techniques use different/harder rolls to build or require you to expend knowledge to use them or something like that?I think the idea is that they'll be balanced in ways like that, yeah. Or maybe techniques can't give straight bonuses to a stat while equipment can. Or maybe something else, you'd have to ask pw (though I doubt he has a clear idea on that yet, it's not in the rules yet at least).
Post by: Ozarck on January 07, 2017, 03:27:34 pm
Post by: Radio Controlled on January 07, 2017, 04:03:01 pm
So, does the ship drill through one square every five hours? Did I miss where it said that?See end of new turn:
Quote
Ok, here's how this works. Each of these squares is 5 hours of digging. We're basically gonna compress time as we move between locations, so that builders can build more and we don't have to sit around doing nothing. So builders, each square is 5 hours of work, or 1 sleep to fully restore your stamina. Plan your stuff accordingly.
Unrelated, but dang I misinterpreted the rules, didn't think it'd be 2 stamina for every turn you dive, just thought it was 2 stamina every time you need to roll transcend. Derp. Probably gonna throw some more points into stamina then, though I'll wait until after leaving the sea so it's not unfair. Unless, pw, you say the window for changes has closed.
Also, it's gonna be pretty dang hard to resurrect people I now realize, even with high transcend, due to the stamina cost. 5 to dive + 2 on turn to find/capture + 2 to place into body. That's 9 stamina, assuming you find the soul immediately and there are no nasties to fight off (unlikely on lvl. 3, seeing how fast they form on lvl1). And then stamina cost equal to the body atribute. Better hope the resurrector had full stamina left or that there's more than 1 diver so they can work in tandem.
Yeah, after depth drive first priority will be more stamina for sure.
Post by: Egan_BW on January 07, 2017, 05:05:23 pm
This system for time passing is super finicky and I don't like it. If time only passes in five-hour blocks, we should design around that, rather than giving me things that take 12 hours to make and thus making me deal with fractions. pls
Maybe just give build times in terms of tiles traveled, and then consume 15 stamina for working for a tile?
Post by: NJW2000 on January 07, 2017, 05:20:29 pm
Post by: Ozarck on January 07, 2017, 06:52:31 pm
I didn't realize there was such a stamina cost for diving either. I think I read that though, so I should have been aware. that does significantly limit a diver's reach, at least to start.
Edit: see, I missed the turn itself entirely. When I checked the thread, PW had his big Bolded question about how far to dig, and that was at the top of the page, so I responded to that not thinking that he had made a full turn a few posts prior. ah well.
Post by: Radio Controlled on January 08, 2017, 05:00:00 am
This system for time passing is super finicky and I don't like it. If time only passes in five-hour blocks, we should design around that, rather than giving me things that take 12 hours to make and thus making me deal with fractions. plsI kinda think the easiest would be to say "you can get 10 (or whatever) buildpoints per block drilled. These buildpoints connect 1-to-1 with bonuses. So you could make 2 +5 items in 1 block's time or 1 +10. Or spend 2 drillblocks on 1 +20 thing. You queue up the things you wanna build, then when we stop drilling to go on adventure you see how many things got finished. Unfinished things are left on the bore as work in progress (eg 10/25 constructed) and can be finished by working on them next timeskip. Non-statbonus things just get a buildcost decided by pw. If you wanna keep working on your stuff while others are out of the bore, every +5 progress is X turns you spend and can do nothing else."
Maybe just give build times in terms of tiles traveled, and then consume 15 stamina for working for a tile?
Of course, this doesn't mesh very well with the stamina mechanic, but that can be solved by making the amount of buildpoints you have per block dependent on your stamina stat.
Just train of thought by the way, there's probably issues I haven't thought of yet.
Thanks RC.
I didn't realize there was such a stamina cost for diving either. I think I read that though, so I should have been aware. that does significantly limit a diver's reach, at least to start.
No prob.
When I read that I thought it was for situations like "spend 2 stamina while in deep sea to pinch down on the enemies' carotid artery, and 2 more for every turn you keep that up" or "2 stamina for summoning a deep sea creature to help you, and 2 more for every turn it stays corporeal".
Also, from taking a closer look at the stamina mechanic again:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Ozarck on January 08, 2017, 06:11:25 am
Post by: Radio Controlled on January 08, 2017, 09:06:05 am
Well, Hide seems to be a matter of actively trying to be unseen, rather than finding cover and staying put. I think find would be the stat for getting a good hiding place, whereas hide is more for creeping in teh shadows, clinging to surfaces, trying not to breathe, and somehow dampening your psyche to avoid notice by the Deep. Or whatever.I thought hide was for getting in cover due to:
Quote from: from the rules
while Hide can be used vs Blast to take cover.
Though perhaps that's more for a sort of 'dive for cover' type of situation? In general I'd find it strange that trying to hide yourself in the environment wouldn't be using the Hide stat.
Post by: piecewise on January 08, 2017, 12:48:14 pm
BasicallyCould someone please explain to me what the difference between an equipment and a technique is? I mean, why would I build a piece of equipment if I can just build a technique that does the same? Or do techniques use different/harder rolls to build or require you to expend knowledge to use them or something like that?I think the idea is that they'll be balanced in ways like that, yeah. Or maybe techniques can't give straight bonuses to a stat while equipment can. Or maybe something else, you'd have to ask pw (though I doubt he has a clear idea on that yet, it's not in the rules yet at least).
1. They drain large amounts of stamina where as most engines drain none
2. They have a very specific use and have to be activated. Ie they're not flat bonuses to everything that uses that roll. So you can't have "Fight +10" it has to be like "+20 move bonus for doing sick parkour"
PIECEWISEWe can just do it in 5 hour units. I figured people would want to micromanage but I'm fine with 5 hour units.
This system for time passing is super finicky and I don't like it. If time only passes in five-hour blocks, we should design around that, rather than giving me things that take 12 hours to make and thus making me deal with fractions. pls
Maybe just give build times in terms of tiles traveled, and then consume 15 stamina for working for a tile?
Thanks RC.
I didn't realize there was such a stamina cost for diving either. I think I read that though, so I should have been aware. that does significantly limit a diver's reach, at least to start.
Edit: see, I missed the turn itself entirely. When I checked the thread, PW had his big Bolded question about how far to dig, and that was at the top of the page, so I responded to that not thinking that he had made a full turn a few posts prior. ah well.
I may reduce stamina costs for diving, at least the cost of sticking around in there doing nothing. Reduce it to 1 or something. Or reduce it to zero and just make attacks more common.
Yeah, it doesn't always make sense, its really just a thing to restrict certain actions.This system for time passing is super finicky and I don't like it. If time only passes in five-hour blocks, we should design around that, rather than giving me things that take 12 hours to make and thus making me deal with fractions. plsI kinda think the easiest would be to say "you can get 10 (or whatever) buildpoints per block drilled. These buildpoints connect 1-to-1 with bonuses. So you could make 2 +5 items in 1 block's time or 1 +10. Or spend 2 drillblocks on 1 +20 thing. You queue up the things you wanna build, then when we stop drilling to go on adventure you see how many things got finished. Unfinished things are left on the bore as work in progress (eg 10/25 constructed) and can be finished by working on them next timeskip. Non-statbonus things just get a buildcost decided by pw. If you wanna keep working on your stuff while others are out of the bore, every +5 progress is X turns you spend and can do nothing else."
Maybe just give build times in terms of tiles traveled, and then consume 15 stamina for working for a tile?
Of course, this doesn't mesh very well with the stamina mechanic, but that can be solved by making the amount of buildpoints you have per block dependent on your stamina stat.
Just train of thought by the way, there's probably issues I haven't thought of yet.Thanks RC.
I didn't realize there was such a stamina cost for diving either. I think I read that though, so I should have been aware. that does significantly limit a diver's reach, at least to start.
No prob.
When I read that I thought it was for situations like "spend 2 stamina while in deep sea to pinch down on the enemies' carotid artery, and 2 more for every turn you keep that up" or "2 stamina for summoning a deep sea creature to help you, and 2 more for every turn it stays corporeal".
Also, from taking a closer look at the stamina mechanic again:Sitting around in your hidey-hole hoping the enemy won't notice you is more tiring than jumping around dodging bullets, heh.Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Ozarck on January 08, 2017, 03:26:44 pm
Post by: Radio Controlled on January 08, 2017, 03:31:30 pm
Quote
Yeah, it doesn't always make sense, its really just a thing to restrict certain actions.
I understand the need for that. Still, other ways to get to the same end result might be worth considering: I'd rather have to fight of more enemies in the deep sea than having to calculate and plan my exact stamina expenditure and keep track of it every turn, as an example. One is an interesting risk/benefit consideration, the other just more bookkeeping and restrictions.
Post by: Whisperling on January 08, 2017, 06:35:40 pm
QuoteYeah, it doesn't always make sense, its really just a thing to restrict certain actions.
I understand the need for that. Still, other ways to get to the same end result might be worth considering: I'd rather have to fight of more enemies in the deep sea than having to calculate and plan my exact stamina expenditure and keep track of it every turn, as an example. One is an interesting risk/benefit consideration, the other just more bookkeeping and restrictions.
Honestly, I feel that this would be a better approach in general. Not that stamina is a huge issue, of course, but scrapping it (or only making it used for particularly strenuous or difficult actions?) and increasing difficulty feels more intuitive.
That said, I understand completely if it's needed for balance.
Post by: Ozarck on January 08, 2017, 06:41:18 pm
I still want to play Oro. Just make it open only to active players with track records of consistent play and a certain love of fiddly stuff. Feel free to update weekly and let us self-police in terms of stats, corruption, body parts, and so forth. Also, there should be a turn limit on how long an unattached body part stays fresh enough to be used, so that we are not simply hauling every corpsebit around in some giant quantuum storage unit for use whenever we take a hit. Or, let us do just that. heh heh heh.
Post by: Radio Controlled on January 09, 2017, 03:25:41 am
((as long as none of us get any Wounds, we'll recover body based on our recover stat. If there are wounds, they are recovered over time, apparently. Since I am using a weapon, there might be wounds. probably not on my target, of course, since I'd need a 25 roll to actually hit. or 15 if the other guy engages him as well.))
Yeah, I figured it might not be needed, but in case one of you rolls really high and the other low and does more damage than intended , it might be good to have a medic at hand. Then again, since this isn't chunky salsa, there might not be an advantage to getting quick medical help compared to just visiting a doc after the fact.
Post by: Ozarck on January 09, 2017, 03:31:28 am
sadly, even the technique I am training wouldn't be enough to even the fight against a Roa deathless like sy's character.
And Move to disengage is worthless, since it rolls against Fight anyway, meaning once you are in combat with a superior fighter, you are at their mercy all around. I guess that'll warn me to use Move to keep from getting into fights to begin with.
Post by: Parisbre56 on January 09, 2017, 01:24:06 pm
EDIT: It's mentioned in the doc that they can be used to trade in the Deep Sea. What I'm interested in is whether or not someone who is not into building or going in the deep sea could "level up" or otherwise improve themselves using knowledge.
Post by: Ozarck on January 09, 2017, 01:41:29 pm
Knowledge is not limited by mind, nor by skills. Basically, anything you want to build, create, train, or discover, you can put knowledge toward. But y uhave to develop the knowledge specifically toward whatever you are trying to achieve or acquire.No generic "knowledge about stuff."
Post by: piecewise on January 09, 2017, 04:27:27 pm
I can redo the core mechanics with d100 style NuER stuff with a lot of stats and skills rather than everything in combat rolling off strength.
Or I can run NuER
Or I can rebalance oro to run with a more Rengoku style. Or even a more Severed (https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5809/22842066203_4ac2be68be_b.jpg) style. Core ideas still the same, just a less complicated. Corruption's not really needed if you can only have human shape and swap out a set number of pieces. At least not the complex parts of corruption.
I'm ok with just making games I find interesting and throwing them at the wall until something sticks.
As per stamina, we can remove it and just make things take time in terms of crafting, but then we basically also have to remove techniques because there's nothing to balance them.
Post by: The Lupanian on January 09, 2017, 04:33:23 pm
Post by: Radio Controlled on January 09, 2017, 04:37:03 pm
Could make techniques have a cooldown in turns or a max use per mission for balance, perhaps coupled to higher knowledge cost? Though if you're gonna change the core mechanics we might first wanna get an idea for how they'll look before we move on to balancing this.
Personally, I like the looks of this game so far, I think we shouldn't be too hasty to change it when we haven't even really gotten started yet.I could agree with this, but the longer we wait the more difficult the transition to a different system would be...
Post by: Devastator on January 09, 2017, 04:46:38 pm
Post by: Ozarck on January 09, 2017, 05:22:12 pm
((@Oz that technique is overpowered. It's really just trading 5 stamina for +20 fight, at no extra risk, because fight mitigates damage just as much as endure. The only difference is that if you would deal any damage at all, your technique adds +20 damage. A better version would be -30 endure, but +15 fight, or that you take your opponent's 2d10 roll in damage regardless but get +30 fight or something.))
Quote from: piecewise
That kind of thing is gonna be something like +20 to fight for one attack at a high stamina cost and gonna mean removing or even going negative for endure. Ie bonus but if you still lose you get hit with huge damage.
I read this to mean the fight bonus is for the attack, but if I don't succeed, in the attack, my defense bonus for the counterattack is gone. I.e. If I used that move one you, I would have 55 fight to your 60. if I rolled a 5 and you rolled a 3, then the totals would be 60 vs 63. you win, and your blow connects where mine does not. now we roll damage. I have 20 endure, so on a normal attack I would absorb 20 damage before losing hp or whatever. in this case I don't absorb that and take all the damage. Now, with my recover, that's not a big issue, but nerfing a technique that anyone can learn, due to a specific advantage one characer might have while using it seems a bit off. unless that were to make me effectively immortal, which it doesn't.
the 5 stamina is a significant investment, as it is the highest stamina cost in the ruleset so far outside of the use of one of the greater relics, which allow a player to control an enemy for one round! that is, a 5 stamina relic of the sea can even immobilize an enemy for one round, which is a more significant advantage than mine (provided it works).
Of course, if the endure loss needs to be for a second round, or the bonuses need tweaking, I'm okay with doing so, but I think it's a reasonable technique as it is.
Post by: syvarris on January 09, 2017, 05:59:32 pm
The idea of ER where everyone can always incarnate is...wait I have a game like that....I think it's called Revolver or repeater. Remind me about it and I'll find it when I return home.
I'm gonna edit the rules a bit.
Oh hey, Piecewise. I'd still like to hear about this!
@Ozark
Well, it's a bit better if the fight bonus is only applied on a hit, but if that's the case the description needs to be changed:
Quote
One Shot (+20 fight for one round, -5 stamina, -20 Endure for one round)
As-is, it implies that there's no conditional on the extra fight, you just get a straight bonus regardless of circumstances.
Also, I'm not arguing that it's OP because of your character. If anything, your character is a bad example, because you should never use such an ability as the first attack--it's something to use once you know can comfortably hit, but simply can't get through Endure. Sifeebt would find it very useful to use against Nameless, due to his somewhat tanky nature, but Nameless would just get himself killed using it against Sifeebt. It always favors the stronger fighter, who will virtually never be Nameless. :\
EDIT:
As for Dig system concerns, despite my constant complaints I do think we should just run the game as-is for a little while, to see how it works out. The whole thing doesn't need to rebuilt before we know for sure whether it's broken. Maybe the complaints are wrong, after all.
Oh, and I've been screwing with AnyDice.com to balance another (completely unrelated) game system, and I found an interesting little article about an unusual dice mechanic, "The Pool" (http://www.anydice.com/articles/the-pool/). I'd summarize it, but it's literally just two paragraphs and a picture.
We could easily modify the system and use it for Stamina, to make it less predictable and reliable, while also having some secondary benefits. Say, your stamina score is the number of d20s you roll (so that point costs are balanced with body and mind), and for high stamina cost actions you have to succeed multiple times in a row. If you fail a rolls, you still do your action, but take a lasting penalty of a couple points to every skill until you can rest. Here's an AnyDice program which shows the probabilities of success, from Stamina 1 to 53 (the minimum and maximum Stamina values in Dig respectively) (http://anydice.com/program/a57a)
This removes the need to track stamina costs, introduces a fatigue mechanic that makes extremely skilled people degrade over time, and prevents fights from being completely deterministic, like two people with equal fight and 18+ Endure, who will simply fight until one of them runs out of stamina and immediately gets curbstomped. It also makes Deep Sea adventures more random and unpredictable, while giving more time to high skill people who can tolerate several stacked levels of fatigue. Finally, there's in-built diminishing returns, a good nerf for the best attribute!
Of course, it's entirely too absurd to even consider rolling this with individual die, so you'd either need a special program or roll the AnyDice probabilities themselves. I'm just the idea man, it's other people's job to figure out how to make my ideas work. :P
Post by: Ozarck on January 09, 2017, 06:24:10 pm
The description may need to be modified to indicate that the technique is a purely offensive one, I suppose.
Post by: syvarris on January 09, 2017, 06:32:17 pm
Do remember that we're using a 2d10 system, which means that if you have a ten point disadvantage, there's only a 3.3% chance of you actually hitting your opponent. With only a 5 point disadvantage, that does improve to a 17.6% chance of hitting them, but that still mean you'll probably be hit (for +20 damage!) at least twice before landing one of your own +20 damage strikes. Maybe that could be workable under very specific circumstances, such as if you have heavy armor and endure, while your foe has nothing of the sort, but then why would they even be attacking rather than disengaging?
Post by: Egan_BW on January 09, 2017, 07:37:41 pm
I'm for seeing where this game goes before changing everything.
Post by: Ozarck on January 09, 2017, 08:51:34 pm
You ninja'd my edit!If I start with a 10 point disadvantage, the +20 will give me a 10 point advantage, and if I start 5 behind, the tech gives me +15. I'm saying that this tech is good for when the opponent is generally somewhat better. The tech takes me from a losing stance to a risky winning stance. But it sounds like you are saying that the endure cost is too high after all, since the tech will only cause me grief in the long run anyway, which is kinda the opposite of your initial concern. The idea is, again, that I'll have the bonus to both attack and damage, while sacrificing defense and stamina.
Do remember that we're using a 2d10 system, which means that if you have a ten point disadvantage, there's only a 3.3% chance of you actually hitting your opponent. With only a 5 point disadvantage, that does improve to a 17.6% chance of hitting them, but that still mean you'll probably be hit (for +20 damage!) at least twice before landing one of your own +20 damage strikes. Maybe that could be workable under very specific circumstances, such as if you have heavy armor and endure, while your foe has nothing of the sort, but then why would they even be attacking rather than disengaging?
Edit: are we just talking past each other here? what am I missing from your argument?
I get that this move is useful but unnecessary when I have the fight advantage, unless I need to move on quickly from an opponent for some reason.
It also seems to me that it is quite possibly useful but potentially costly when I have a slight to moderate disadvantage, and is completely useless when the opponent has a significant advantage. It's a situational technique.
Post by: syvarris on January 09, 2017, 09:58:50 pm
Spoiler: Quote of the bit I misread (click to show/hide)
Okay, since I now understand where I disconnected, I can go back to quibbling about balance. Your move is 100% riskless because you're shifting points from Endure (which directly mitigates damage) to Fight (which directly mitigates damage identically to Endure, and also can deal damage). In the example you described, you use the ability to get 55 Fight, then roll a 5, while I roll a 3 to add to my innate Fight of 60. This results in you having a final total of 60, with me having 63. Since you now have 0 Endure due to the technique, you take three damage.
My point is that there was no increased risk. If you started with 35 Fight, rolling 5 for 40 combined, versus my combined score of 63, you take 23 damage... which is then mitigated by your Endure, for three damage taken. An identical result.
The only functional difference between this technique and "Gain +20 fight at the cost of 5 Stamina" is that such a technique would also mitigate twenty points of damage, being useful when you're weaker than your foe. Otherwise, it's completely identical. As such:
Basically
1. They drain large amounts of stamina where as most engines drain none
2. They have a very specific use and have to be activated. Ie they're not flat bonuses to everything that uses that roll. So you can't have "Fight +10" it has to be like "+20 move bonus for doing sick parkour"
Seems to be saying that it's an unfair technique, as it can indeed apply in every situation that you'd be rolling fight. If it got through entirely on the fact that it isn't helpful when you're vastly weaker, I would call it overpowered, because that isn't really a significant penalty.
Post by: Devastator on January 10, 2017, 12:12:22 am
I was thinking that maybe crafting should be more streamlined. Say, you can build X amount of stuff, based on your build. Then your stamina determines how often it resets, and you can build another batch. Out of the bore, (or in combat), everyone gets so much stamina, + however many more points for having points in stamina, which are deducted every time you roll, and with penalties when you run out.
I'd also streamline techniques, as well. You'd make techniques with whatever stat the technique uses, say fight for fight techs, except that building equipment should be easier and better as it doesn't have direct combat applications. Say techs always require XP, and the roll for them is more difficult than building equipment using build, etc. With the same stamina rules applying for developing techs.
Those are just suggestions. I think the only mechanic I'm dubious about is just finding experience inside the bore with Find rolls. That seems kinda safe and dubious. Maybe Find could grant a certain amount to start with, or only do stuff outside the bore or when dived or such, in addition to it's normal use.
Post by: Gentlefish on January 10, 2017, 06:05:38 am
Oh, damn it, sorry. I misread your response post! >.<Spoiler: Quote of the bit I misread (click to show/hide)
Okay, since I now understand where I disconnected, I can go back to quibbling about balance. Your move is 100% riskless because you're shifting points from Endure (which directly mitigates damage) to Fight (which directly mitigates damage identically to Endure, and also can deal damage). In the example you described, you use the ability to get 55 Fight, then roll a 5, while I roll a 3 to add to my innate Fight of 60. This results in you having a final total of 60, with me having 63. Since you now have 0 Endure due to the technique, you take three damage.
My point is that there was no increased risk. If you started with 35 Fight, rolling 5 for 40 combined, versus my combined score of 63, you take 23 damage... which is then mitigated by your Endure, for three damage taken. An identical result.
The only functional difference between this technique and "Gain +20 fight at the cost of 5 Stamina" is that such a technique would also mitigate twenty points of damage, being useful when you're weaker than your foe. Otherwise, it's completely identical. As such:Basically
1. They drain large amounts of stamina where as most engines drain none
2. They have a very specific use and have to be activated. Ie they're not flat bonuses to everything that uses that roll. So you can't have "Fight +10" it has to be like "+20 move bonus for doing sick parkour"
Seems to be saying that it's an unfair technique, as it can indeed apply in every situation that you'd be rolling fight. If it got through entirely on the fact that it isn't helpful when you're vastly weaker, I would call it overpowered, because that isn't really a significant penalty.
I think the risk is suck that he spends it and takes the endurance penalty the whole round, while the fight bonus is only if he hits. I think? Do I have this right?
Post by: Ozarck on January 10, 2017, 09:03:33 am
Like this: the bonus applies to my attack, but if I fail the attack, the bonus is not included.
However, the rules are a bit more straightforward about attacks, it seems:
Both characters use fight for their action that round. Whichever gets the highest total score damages the other. in which case, sy's explanation makes sense.
To mitigate that, I'll either have to take a heavier penalty to endure, or make the penalty last a second round. PW did say I might need to go negative on endure.
there are a other considerations though. For instance, we are discussing this as if one-on-one fights are all we will encounter. this technique is good against a single target, so It's not a flat +20 fight. it's a +20 fight against this particular target. Dropping endure drops it against all enemies who might attack in that round (or the next, if we went that route)
So, options for a better write up:
+20 fight, -30 endure, -5 stamina. Fight bonus is against one opponent only. effects last one round.
or
+20fight, -20 endure, -5 stamina. Fight bonus is against one target only, for one round only. Endure malus lasts two rounds.
or
+20 fight, -20 endure, -(x) Move - 5 stamina. Fight bonus is against one target only, for one round only. User is unable to dodge, disengage, or whatever the following round.
or
+20 fight, -40 endure, -5 stamina. Bonus is against one target only, for one round. On a successful strike, target is stunned (or has his endure score reduced, or some other effect) (this is practically a different technique though).
or
+20 fight, -30 endure, -5 stamina. Bonus is against one target only, for one round. technique cannot be used again until the user has had time to rest.
Post by: piecewise on January 10, 2017, 10:44:05 am
1. Shift to d100 system where every roll is a d100 roll and you try to roll under your stat number
2. The addition of a few extra abilities, namely defensive abilities to handle the new way combat would work. And combat would work by you rolling your attack skill, they roll their defense skill, and whoever succeeds on the roll would be the winner. If both succeed, then whoever succeeded by the most, ie if someone with skill 70 fought someone with skill 30 and both rolled 20, the skill 70 would winn because they succeeded by 50 rather than 10. But if the 70 rolls 65 and the 30 rolls 20, the 30 skill player would win.
3. Weapons would have hard damage values (or rather roll values, like this weapon does d12 damage) rather than doing damage based off differences.
4. Stamina removed. Crafting still takes time but there's no limit to how long you can do it in a stretch. Diving becomes even more dangerous. Techniques, if they exist still, will have to drain something else or be made with serious disadvantages.
5. Player gen changed, mostly rebalancing starting classes and the number of points available at chargen.
Post by: piecewise on January 10, 2017, 10:46:29 am
Post by: Radio Controlled on January 10, 2017, 10:52:46 am
Thanks for keeping up with all of our balance whining. Will you be updating the existing docs file with the new rules?
Post by: piecewise on January 10, 2017, 11:12:40 am
Sounds promising. I especially like the change to diving, now weMost likely.can get ourselves killed fastercan saunter around this brave new world all we want. And making combat a little less deterministic without it being random.
Thanks for keeping up with all of our balance whining. Will you be updating the existing docs file with the new rules?
Post by: piecewise on January 10, 2017, 04:03:26 pm
Post by: Ozarck on January 10, 2017, 05:13:07 pm
On an unrelated note, I rescued my first Kerbal from low Kerbin orbit last night! I was very pleased.
Post by: Egan_BW on January 10, 2017, 06:15:19 pm
There's an awful lot of rebalancing going on. A lot of changes. You're all gonna have to basically make new sheets.Sigh.
Post by: syvarris on January 10, 2017, 11:37:43 pm
Sigh.What? It's not my fault, at least not entirely. I always complain about balance, usually it doesn't result in complete rejiggering. ::)
Post by: Ozarck on January 11, 2017, 02:06:24 am
Post by: piecewise on January 11, 2017, 04:21:40 am
Weapons are now rolls, defensive stats exist, stamina is no more, etc. There's just a lot of stuf different now.
Post by: Ozarck on January 11, 2017, 05:43:51 am
Is that the intention there? looks like you start us out with 50 per ability.
Nameless: Thoughful corpse
Body: 80
Mind: 20
knowledge: 0
60 Blast
80 Fight
80 Dodge
70 Cover
80 Endure
80 Move
50 Hide
10 Find
10 Transcend
90 Recover (80 +10)
00 Build
00 Control
Weapon: Knife (3d6 dmg)
Post by: Rautherdir on January 11, 2017, 09:25:02 am
Post by: piecewise on January 11, 2017, 10:25:29 am
600 points to distribute among 12 abilities, 80 max per? You could max out seven of them and have 40 points left to distrbute among the last 5,400, not 600. I think maybe it didn't update all the way last night but I changed that before saying to look at it.
Is that the intention there? looks like you start us out with 50 per ability.
Nameless: Thoughful corpse
Body: 80
Mind: 20
knowledge: 0
60 Blast
80 Fight
80 Dodge
70 Cover
80 Endure
80 Move
50 Hide
10 Find
10 Transcend
90 Recover (80 +10)
00 Build
00 Control
Weapon: Knife (3d6 dmg)
So... now Quiet Man/Hushed Lady is the same as a civilian who took +10 hide and a knife.Effectively in terms of starting bonuses. The civililian is effectively the same as several of the classes if they stat that way.
Post by: Ozarck on January 11, 2017, 10:43:29 am
So... now Quiet Man/Hushed Lady is the same as a civilian who took +10 hide and a knife.Worm driver is the same: 10 control and a pistol. the other classes each have somethingunique to them though.
but you can also make completely different classes out of a civvie. Circus acrobat? +10 move, max out move dodge, endure, build maybe ....
Scientist of the shadows? +10 build, max out build transcend, hide, find ...
Yeah, all the classes do seem much more similar overall in terms of innate capabilities. Now the focus is on where you put points into your abilities, mostly.
Post by: Pancaek on January 11, 2017, 11:03:18 am
Post by: Devastator on January 11, 2017, 01:13:18 pm
Perhaps it should just be compared to 1d100, and failing to exceed the 1d100 roll shouldn't be an automatic failure. Instead, the opponent's roll is also compared to 1d100, and the better relative performance should hit. That way, 50 v 50 would be a 50% chance to hit. I'm also thinking that there should probably be the failure chance for magical attacks, as there is no defensive stat to compare them to.
Post by: piecewise on January 11, 2017, 01:35:37 pm
So, endure no longer works as something that lessens the damage you take directly. Except for being the stat that determines what kinds of armour you can wear, what else does it do exactly? When will you be rolling it?To resist poison, being on fire, being blinded by pepperspray, when you need to do something taxing for long periods, etc. Or drinking.
It also seems somewhat pointless to do physical attacks. A 50 blast character shooting at a 50 cover character has 37% chance to hit, which when compared to a magic-user's 100% seems utterly pointless. It also seems pretty pointless to have stats that aren't maxed, if they're all compared to 1d100 before even having a chance to work. Hiding, say, if it only has a chance to work 30% of the time, and can still fail even when succeeding, who would ever make a plan depending on it?Dev, what part of "Magic attacks actively summon demons into your brain is so hard to understand? Also, magic isn't 100% and I have no idea why you think it is. You have to roll transcend for it and almost any attack done with it will have some roll opposing it.
Perhaps it should just be compared to 1d100, and failing to exceed the 1d100 roll shouldn't be an automatic failure. Instead, the opponent's roll is also compared to 1d100, and the better relative performance should hit. That way, 50 v 50 would be a 50% chance to hit. I'm also thinking that there should probably be the failure chance for magical attacks, as there is no defensive stat to compare them to.
Also I'm not sure what you mean by "fail when succeeding."
Also, the one who plans on hide is the one with 80 hide.
Post by: Radio Controlled on January 11, 2017, 01:45:40 pm
PW, the rules say doing stuff in the deep sea rolls transcend. This is for all deep-sea related actions, right? I know I can't fire a gun using transcend, but what about eg. finding the soul of a teammate who misplaced his for rezzing?
Oh, and when enter lvl. 6 of the sea you get access to your other skills as well, but can one choose whether or not to use these instead of transcend, or is it 'mandatory'? I think the former, but not entirely sure.
Post by: Devastator on January 11, 2017, 01:47:08 pm
Dev, what part of "Magic attacks actively summon demons into your brain is so hard to understand? Also, magic isn't 100% and I have no idea why you think it is. You have to roll transcend for it and almost any attack done with it will have some roll opposing it.
Fair enough, then. I didn't see anything obvious for that.
I'm still not sold on Hide, though. An 80% chance of getting into an advantageous situation where you get, say, a +20 to the next roll, doesn't seem like a terribly efficient use of points, where you could theoretically just spend 20 more points into the relevant stat.
Post by: Rautherdir on January 11, 2017, 01:49:05 pm
I'm still not sold on Hide, though. An 80% chance of getting into an advantageous situation where you get, say, a +20 to the next roll, doesn't seem like a terribly efficient use of points, where you could theoretically just spend 20 more points into the relevant stat.
Because Avert-Thy-Eyes + Behemoth's Engine.
Post by: Devastator on January 11, 2017, 01:53:45 pm
Also I'm not sure what you mean by "fail when succeeding."
-edit- sorry.
I meant that even if you roll under your Hide, Find can still get ya. 80 hide vs 20 find is, if I'm reading it right, would be about 75% chance of a successful hide, with the extra 5% coming up when the 20 find succeeds better.
Post by: Pancaek on January 11, 2017, 01:57:19 pm
Post by: Devastator on January 11, 2017, 01:58:42 pm
Because Avert-Thy-Eyes + Behemoth's Engine.
Or.. just behemoth's engine + weapon.
Post by: Rautherdir on January 11, 2017, 02:03:15 pm
Or.. just behemoth's engine + weapon.
And both relevant abilities are maxed out. So I can't just move points from Hide to Fight because Fight is maxed out.
Also, it's different than what everybody else is doing and looks somewhat challenging to play.
Post by: Devastator on January 11, 2017, 02:22:30 pm
Also, the one who plans on hide is the one with 80 hide.
That's kinda the part that's rubbing on me. If I want to ever be able to do something, I need to apply max points to it right now. I've played too much Wesnoth to ever count on 60% chances, particularly ones that are really lower than that (assuming some defense). Fight physically? pick an attack stat, max it, and likely the defense stat at that range as well. And then the other defense stat or recover. That leaves you with two other choices. Fight magically? Max transcend and make four other choices, not counting the two physical defence stats because they're probably meaningless to an unconscious character.
And if you really want something to work, you need to max it out harder by stacking relevant implants and such to get it to say, 100 or 120 or something, so that you can have a 50% or better chance of success. So by maxing something you have a decent chance of success, and if you don't max something, putting say 40 points in it, it's roughly equivalent to zero as the actual odds of success will be something like 20%.
It might be more basic than all that. It's that I can't take advantage of weaknesses. I can't take advantage of an 0 find by hiding, because if I come up with 30% in bonuses to hide, that's only a 30% chance of success against a zero. Or something similar. I'd need to decide now which weaknesses I can ever take advantage of.
Post by: Ozarck on January 11, 2017, 02:42:14 pm
Nameless: Thoughful corpse
Body: 80
Mind: 20
knowledge: 0
00 Blast
80 Fight
60 Dodge
40 Cover
60 Endure
80 Move
00 Hide
00 Find
00 Transcend
90 Recover (80 +10)
00 Build
00 Control
Weapon: Knife (3d6 dmg)
Post by: Pancaek on January 11, 2017, 02:45:39 pm
Post by: Ozarck on January 11, 2017, 02:49:57 pm
Since the armour that uses the highest endure in the rulesheet requires 60 endure, is that the max amount of endure required to wear armours? Or are there that require more endure?The list of weapons isn't exhaustive, so I'm bettingthe listof armors isn'teither.
I'm really hating dodge right now. I don't really want to put a lot of points in it because I'll be using blast weapon almost explusively, so I don't plan on letting myself get into melee situations if I can help it. Then again, if I somehow do get into a melee situation I absolutely need dodge to even stand a chance at getting out of it. I can't just, say, put 80 points into move and try to disengage after tanking one hit, because I also need to make a dodge vs fight roll to even be able to run away. Argh.Become best friends with Nameless. (or Sy's character, if he chooses to keep it). This should be less of a concern.
Post by: Pancaek on January 11, 2017, 02:51:36 pm
Post by: NJW2000 on January 11, 2017, 03:23:44 pm
I don't think relying on other people is good for your health
FTFY
Post by: Egan_BW on January 11, 2017, 03:27:15 pm
Post by: Pancaek on January 11, 2017, 03:34:49 pm
I don't think that refusing to rely on other people is good for your health.I'm going to try not to rely on it, but I'm certainly not going to turn away such offers of mutual help in combat.
Post by: Devastator on January 11, 2017, 04:13:36 pm
Really, targetting weak spots is for chumps.
Post by: piecewise on January 11, 2017, 04:33:41 pm
Also, for magical attacks you have to be unconscious somewhere. Any shmuck who wants can saunter along and stab the offending brainiac in the throat.On levels 1-5, you have literally nothing but transcend.
PW, the rules say doing stuff in the deep sea rolls transcend. This is for all deep-sea related actions, right? I know I can't fire a gun using transcend, but what about eg. finding the soul of a teammate who misplaced his for rezzing?
Oh, and when enter lvl. 6 of the sea you get access to your other skills as well, but can one choose whether or not to use these instead of transcend, or is it 'mandatory'? I think the former, but not entirely sure.
At level 6 and higher its kind of a mix. attacks are still transcend, but other physical stats like move or dodge come in.
I'm not sure of the exact statistics of it, but it would be 80% chance of you rolling under and a 20% chance of them rolling under. However, they would have to roll much better to beat your success. Essentially if you rolled 60 or lower you'd be completely unbeatable by a 20 skill player.Also I'm not sure what you mean by "fail when succeeding."
-edit- sorry.
I meant that even if you roll under your Hide, Find can still get ya. 80 hide vs 20 find is, if I'm reading it right, would be about 75% chance of a successful hide, with the extra 5% coming up when the 20 find succeeds better.
Regardless, the practical side of this is that most of the time, for most enemies, they'll have combat related stats but no other stats, so I'll just roll a generic test of your hide and if you pass, you pass.
Thats a reasonable dislike. But you forget that if a creature has 0 find I probably wouldn't even force a hide roll. If the weakness is obvious or easy then its not usually gonna need a roll.Also, the one who plans on hide is the one with 80 hide.
That's kinda the part that's rubbing on me. If I want to ever be able to do something, I need to apply max points to it right now. I've played too much Wesnoth to ever count on 60% chances, particularly ones that are really lower than that (assuming some defense). Fight physically? pick an attack stat, max it, and likely the defense stat at that range as well. And then the other defense stat or recover. That leaves you with two other choices. Fight magically? Max transcend and make four other choices, not counting the two physical defence stats because they're probably meaningless to an unconscious character.
And if you really want something to work, you need to max it out harder by stacking relevant implants and such to get it to say, 100 or 120 or something, so that you can have a 50% or better chance of success. So by maxing something you have a decent chance of success, and if you don't max something, putting say 40 points in it, it's roughly equivalent to zero as the actual odds of success will be something like 20%.
It might be more basic than all that. It's that I can't take advantage of weaknesses. I can't take advantage of an 0 find by hiding, because if I come up with 30% in bonuses to hide, that's only a 30% chance of success against a zero. Or something similar. I'd need to decide now which weaknesses I can ever take advantage of.
I'm really hating dodge right now. I don't really want to put a lot of points in it because I'll be using blast weapon almost explusively, so I don't plan on letting myself get into melee situations if I can help it. Then again, if I somehow do get into a melee situation I absolutely need dodge to even stand a chance at getting out of it. I can't just, say, put 80 points into move and try to disengage after tanking one hit, because I also need to make a dodge vs fight roll to even be able to run away. Argh.You could, however, use actions that say "If a melee enemy runs up to me, cancel my attack and run away." which would force a move vs move roll for them to attack you. Of course if they DO catch you you're fucked, and I can't say that actions like that will always work depending on the situation. But it's something to think about.
Oh, one last bit. Against someone with 80 of the relevant defense, you need about a 120 to have a 5/6 odds of scoring a hit. Against someone with zero, you need about an 83-84 to have the same odds.
Really, targetting weak spots is for chumps.
And in RTD you fail 50% of the time.
Post by: Pancaek on January 11, 2017, 04:47:42 pm
Post by: Rautherdir on January 11, 2017, 04:50:21 pm
How important is find going to be? Like, are we going to have to roll it every time we're searching for something. Because in the previous system I had to roll find to find books in the archive, something that could also be solved by just systematically reading every single book title page.
You know I'm making something to help find rolls made in the archive, right?
Post by: Pancaek on January 11, 2017, 04:53:02 pm
You know I'm making something to help find rolls made in the archive, right?I didn't, but that was just an example. I'm currently thinking of leaving find at 0, but I'm afraid that will make me literally unable the find even the most obvious shit. Like, every action with "look around" or "inspect" just insta-fails, regardless of how easy it would be to see the thing I need to see.
Post by: piecewise on January 11, 2017, 05:05:17 pm
How important is find going to be? Like, are we going to have to roll it every time we're searching for something. Because in the previous system I had to roll find to find books in the archive, something that could also be solved by just systematically reading every single book title page.How about this: Normal circumstances a find roll is used to find something quickly. Otherwise you have to spend some period of time looking for it. Maybe minutes or hours, maybe days depending on what it is and the situation. So if you have to find things fast.
Also anything where you have traps or hidden dangers.
Post by: Pancaek on January 11, 2017, 05:11:01 pm
Post by: Radio Controlled on January 11, 2017, 05:20:01 pm
Post by: syvarris on January 11, 2017, 05:23:14 pm
I'm not completely sure about this sheet, I'd like to ask a few questions first. First, the rules currently say that to disengage from ranged combat, you need to succeed on a cover check, then on a move check. Could I not simply accept getting hit, and skip right to rolling move? Or does all combat lock me in until I succeed on a defensive roll?
Second, can divers in the Deep Sea attack people in the real world, dealing damage directly to mind? Meaning one needs high Transcend, Mind, or Hide to survive their attacks?
Third, could a person willingly separate their mind from their body without trauma, but also without going to Deep Sea Level 6, to avoid the penalties of traumatic death? Would you need Transcend to do so, even if it's just because you need to have been to L6 before? Could a skilled diver handle it for you, to prevent the death penalties?
Fourth, are living engines still helpful even after you've been killed and your soul thrown into the Deep Sea?
Fifth, can ghosts stored in an ego vault be removed and placed into a body?
@Pan
I'd really hope Recover restores Mind as well, else all our Transcend focused people are gonna have a hell of a time.
Post by: Pancaek on January 11, 2017, 05:26:45 pm
@PanThat's a good point, I don't think the rulesheet mentions ways to get mind points back. Luckely for me I don't have to deal with most transcend stuff, but that does mean I'm conflicted on wether I should spend my last 30 or so points in recover or find.
I'd really hope Recover restores Mind as well, else all our Transcend focused people are gonna have a hell of a time.
Post by: Radio Controlled on January 11, 2017, 05:30:14 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Had a bunch of hide first, thought it'd mesh well with having to go unconscious to use transcend and thus not being able to defend myself anyway, but decided against it cause that'd make me just too squishy (still very squishy now), especially when surprised or ambushed. Could drop some more points into body at a loss of mind, but I get the feeling I'll be needing those mind points, now that there will be even more deep sea
Still trying to decide whether to try and drop some points into dodge, though not sure where I could get them. With this setup I could try to rely on move to bravely run away the second melee shows up, but if that fails or is impossible, I'm pretty dang fucked, with no option to disengage (choose for cover vs dodge cause I think move is less reliable there for avoiding ranged weapons, and otherwise any shmuck with a pistol could pin me down at range).
Post by: Pancaek on January 11, 2017, 05:35:51 pm
-snip-Since I've got a decent amount of move and body points, we could get some kind of master blaster thing going. All I'd need to do is weld a basket to the back of my armour.
Still trying to decide whether to try and drop some points into dodge, though not sure where I could get them. With this setup I could try to rely on move to bravely run away the second melee shows up, but if that fails or is impossible, I'm pretty dang fucked, with no option to disengage (choose for cover vs dodge cause I think move is less reliable there for avoiding ranged weapons, and otherwise any shmuck with a pistol could pin me down at range).
Post by: Radio Controlled on January 11, 2017, 05:37:44 pm
-snip-Since I've got a decent amount of move and body points, we could get some kind of master blaster thing going. All I'd need to do is weld a basket to the back of my armour.
Still trying to decide whether to try and drop some points into dodge, though not sure where I could get them. With this setup I could try to rely on move to bravely run away the second melee shows up, but if that fails or is impossible, I'm pretty dang fucked, with no option to disengage (choose for cover vs dodge cause I think move is less reliable there for avoiding ranged weapons, and otherwise any shmuck with a pistol could pin me down at range).
That sounds absolutely hilarious. Robocop&Psychobastard, in theaters now.
Post by: syvarris on January 11, 2017, 05:57:05 pm
At the same time, Hide is probably the best way to defend yourself while Diving. I think if you try to hide something else, you still just roll hide, so perhaps a character specced for Hide could hide the divers' bodies? They presumably wouldn't be able to benefit from Hide engines for that roll, but it could be a secondary use for a high hide.
Post by: Ozarck on January 11, 2017, 11:10:34 pm
Post by: Gentlefish on January 11, 2017, 11:50:38 pm
Would opposed checks be better if it's opposed [roll] - [score] and tie goes to defense?
E: There's problems with that too, but there's problems in any system I guess. Gonna be late for work if I think too hard, though
Post by: Ozarck on January 12, 2017, 12:00:25 am
Post by: piecewise on January 12, 2017, 12:45:36 am
All right, is recover used for anything but regaining body points after a battle?A few minor things maybe if it seems to fit, but mostly just that.
Another question then, pw: what kind of items can give you bonusses in the sea when you're dead? Say I have an engine that boosts my transcend, do I keep the bonus upon death (planned or otherwise)? And what if someone eg. took my priests' beadchain of my physical body while dead/unconscious, do I lose that weapon in the sea then as well?
If it is a decision, you keep everything, if you die accidentally, you keep nothing EXCEPT ideas. Like the Mantras of Truth.
Guess I might as well repost my list of questions here, for a faster answer.It doesI'm not completely sure about this sheet, I'd like to ask a few questions first. First, the rules currently say that to disengage from ranged combat, you need to succeed on a cover check, then on a move check. Could I not simply accept getting hit, and skip right to rolling move? Or does all combat lock me in until I succeed on a defensive roll?
Second, can divers in the Deep Sea attack people in the real world, dealing damage directly to mind? Meaning one needs high Transcend, Mind, or Hide to survive their attacks?
Third, could a person willingly separate their mind from their body without trauma, but also without going to Deep Sea Level 6, to avoid the penalties of traumatic death? Would you need Transcend to do so, even if it's just because you need to have been to L6 before? Could a skilled diver handle it for you, to prevent the death penalties?
Fourth, are living engines still helpful even after you've been killed and your soul thrown into the Deep Sea?
Fifth, can ghosts stored in an ego vault be removed and placed into a body?
@Pan
I'd really hope Recover restores Mind as well, else all our Transcend focused people are gonna have a hell of a time.
Wait, what happens of both people fail their rolls?
Would opposed checks be better if it's opposed [roll] - [score] and tie goes to defense?
E: There's problems with that too, but there's problems in any system I guess. Gonna be late for work if I think too hard, though
Think of it like this:
If the attacker fails at all, they just missed.
If the defender failed and the attacker succeeded, then the defender just failed to protect themselves at all
If the Attacker and defender both succeed, but the attacker succeeded more, then they clashed swords a bit and the attacker found an opening and managed to hit
If the opposite is true, then the defender managed to repel every attack and defend themselves.
Post by: Radio Controlled on January 12, 2017, 02:10:13 am
I've noticed that Hide and Transcend are pretty at odds with each other. As long as you're willing to accept massive Transcend penalties, you can get two very powerful Hide engines. Hide is also the best way to avoid Transcend attacks, as it's only counterable with Find, whereas you'll always be at the disadvantage with Transcend (unless it's your focus), and Mind just lets you tank stuff for a little while.I just asked pw, and he said that while diving one uses transcend for all their rolls. That presumably also includes finding the spirit of an enemy to attack?
At the same time, Hide is probably the best way to defend yourself while Diving. I think if you try to hide something else, you still just roll hide, so perhaps a character specced for Hide could hide the divers' bodies? They presumably wouldn't be able to benefit from Hide engines for that roll, but it could be a secondary use for a high hide.
And having other people hide my vulnerable behind could work, though that sounds mostly reliable when we have the initiative and time is on our side (in which case finding a semi-decent hiding spot might circumvent the hide roll somewhat, like with Find for Pan's question).
Post by: piecewise on January 12, 2017, 11:45:20 am
I feel you may wake up and find yourself in some very odd places if you allow other people to hide you.I've noticed that Hide and Transcend are pretty at odds with each other. As long as you're willing to accept massive Transcend penalties, you can get two very powerful Hide engines. Hide is also the best way to avoid Transcend attacks, as it's only counterable with Find, whereas you'll always be at the disadvantage with Transcend (unless it's your focus), and Mind just lets you tank stuff for a little while.I just asked pw, and he said that while diving one uses transcend for all their rolls. That presumably also includes finding the spirit of an enemy to attack?
At the same time, Hide is probably the best way to defend yourself while Diving. I think if you try to hide something else, you still just roll hide, so perhaps a character specced for Hide could hide the divers' bodies? They presumably wouldn't be able to benefit from Hide engines for that roll, but it could be a secondary use for a high hide.
And having other people hide my vulnerable behind could work, though that sounds mostly reliable when we have the initiative and time is on our side (in which case finding a semi-decent hiding spot might circumvent the hide roll somewhat, like with Find for Pan's question).
Post by: NJW2000 on January 12, 2017, 12:03:03 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: piecewise on January 12, 2017, 12:07:06 pm
Is the civilian's +10 on an 80 here legal?Spoiler (click to show/hide)
I suppose.
Also, to the oro fans
http://store.steampowered.com/agecheck/app/550840/
Should this be in the "They stole our idea" thread?
Post by: Radio Controlled on January 12, 2017, 12:19:30 pm
I feel you may wake up and find yourself in some very odd places if you allow other people to hide you.I've noticed that Hide and Transcend are pretty at odds with each other. As long as you're willing to accept massive Transcend penalties, you can get two very powerful Hide engines. Hide is also the best way to avoid Transcend attacks, as it's only counterable with Find, whereas you'll always be at the disadvantage with Transcend (unless it's your focus), and Mind just lets you tank stuff for a little while.I just asked pw, and he said that while diving one uses transcend for all their rolls. That presumably also includes finding the spirit of an enemy to attack?
At the same time, Hide is probably the best way to defend yourself while Diving. I think if you try to hide something else, you still just roll hide, so perhaps a character specced for Hide could hide the divers' bodies? They presumably wouldn't be able to benefit from Hide engines for that roll, but it could be a secondary use for a high hide.
And having other people hide my vulnerable behind could work, though that sounds mostly reliable when we have the initiative and time is on our side (in which case finding a semi-decent hiding spot might circumvent the hide roll somewhat, like with Find for Pan's question).
I'm unconscious anyway, not like I can stop them even if I didn't allow it.
Post by: Pancaek on January 12, 2017, 03:50:17 pm
I'm a little concerned with the soldier's suit apparently taking 100 hours to make. Chances are good I won't get one finished before the first mission, but this would imply that better armours are going to take even more time. I realize we need to reel in the tinkering a bit, but that's basically 20 turns of doing nothing else.
Post by: NJW2000 on January 12, 2017, 03:54:59 pm
Post by: Radio Controlled on January 12, 2017, 04:20:41 pm
Perhaps unoccupied characters should spend their turns helping builders, if that's even possible. Or half helping, half resting.
Unless there's heavy diminishing returns on people working together, it might not be a bad idea for engineers that plan on building the same things to work together as well. 1 finished suit of armor is worth more than two unfinished ones after all.
Post by: Pancaek on January 12, 2017, 04:29:22 pm
Post by: Radio Controlled on January 12, 2017, 04:31:52 pm
Post by: Egan_BW on January 12, 2017, 05:10:40 pm
Post by: Ozarck on January 12, 2017, 05:33:07 pm
Since the armour that uses the highest endure in the rulesheet requires 60 endure, is that the max amount of endure required to wear armours? Or are there that require more endure?The list of weapons isn't exhaustive, so I'm bettingthe listof armors isn'teither.I'm really hating dodge right now. I don't really want to put a lot of points in it because I'll be using blast weapon almost explusively, so I don't plan on letting myself get into melee situations if I can help it. Then again, if I somehow do get into a melee situation I absolutely need dodge to even stand a chance at getting out of it. I can't just, say, put 80 points into move and try to disengage after tanking one hit, because I also need to make a dodge vs fight roll to even be able to run away. Argh.Become best friends with Nameless. (or Sy's character, if he chooses to keep it). This should be less of a concern.
As much as I'd love to do that, I don't think relying on other people in combat is good for your health in a piecewise game.
-snip-Since I've got a decent amount of move and body points, we could get some kind of master blaster thing going. All I'd need to do is weld a basket to the back of my armour.
Still trying to decide whether to try and drop some points into dodge, though not sure where I could get them. With this setup I could try to rely on move to bravely run away the second melee shows up, but if that fails or is impossible, I'm pretty dang fucked, with no option to disengage (choose for cover vs dodge cause I think move is less reliable there for avoiding ranged weapons, and otherwise any shmuck with a pistol could pin me down at range).
Thanks a lot Pancaek. -Grumble- *kicks the wall* *stomps off to sulk*
Post by: Pancaek on January 12, 2017, 05:39:15 pm
We could totally have a Ménage à trois with Nameless, if you know what I'm saying.
Post by: Ozarck on January 12, 2017, 05:49:33 pm
Edit: looks like PW used Nameless' current stats in rauth's action. the format is confusing me though. Not entirely sure what just happened.
Post by: Radio Controlled on January 13, 2017, 04:53:29 am
Hey now, me and RC have had a thing going since ER mission 7. Also, both of us are absolute garbage at melee.The bromance is real~
We could totally have a Ménage à trois with Nameless, if you know what I'm saying.
Thanks a lot Pancaek. -Grumble- *kicks the wall* *stomps off to sulk*Am I missing something here? Did you have something similar in mind maybe? Because, Like pancaek said, we still have a big melee-shaped hole in our repertoire.
Post by: Ozarck on January 13, 2017, 09:42:47 am
though, the Blast/Melee/Transcend combination is a good idea in general.
So yeah, I could tag along occasionally and stab things for you guys.
I mean, we haven't really tried murder in this game yet. I hear it comes highly recommended :P
Post by: Radio Controlled on January 14, 2017, 06:46:32 am
I was teasing Pancaek about rejecting my offer to team up earlier, RC.Now we can add a brozarck to our broforce, cool :P
though, the Blast/Melee/Transcend combination is a good idea in general.
So yeah, I could tag along occasionally and stab things for you guys.
I mean, we haven't really tried murder in this game yet. I hear it comes highly recommended :P
Remember that the drill has a sort of ping system with which it can gather info on its surroundings. Could use it to get some clues (next to periscope looking of course) on what we found just now. I'd do it myself, but I think it'll be simpler if I don't interrupt the build action we have right now.
Quote
Soldier's suit.
[29]
Soldier's suit is basically the armor from Jin-roh, if you've ever seen that. It's not powered or anything, its just basically a suit of modern platemail. It takes a while to make and has to be sized to the person wearing it, but is pretty simple other than that. But its a lot of plates pieces to hammer out and make, so we're looking at like 100 hours.
By the way, if anyone here hasn't seen Jin-Roh yet (it's pretty good, can recommend) this is what their armor looks like:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
In case anyone was still wondering whether we're the 'good guys' in this setting, I think the aesthetics of our gear answers that question succinctly.
Post by: NJW2000 on January 14, 2017, 02:45:42 pm
Also, bit odd that beating up a small child could teach you more than a session with a prizefighter. Though I guess you might remember more.
Post by: Radio Controlled on January 14, 2017, 04:25:12 pm
Winning a fight gains one knowledge more than losing? I guess I can see it from a gamey perspective, but power inequality may be boosted."So Tyler, what did you learn today?"
Also, bit odd that beating up a small child could teach you more than a session with a prizefighter. Though I guess you might remember more.
"Well Edward, today I found out that repeatedly punching a toddler in the kidneys is a great workout for your biceps and does wonders for your self esteem."
Post by: syvarris on January 14, 2017, 06:49:45 pm
Post by: Ozarck on January 14, 2017, 09:13:10 pm
I probably should have made explicit that Nameless would simply attempt to fight both opponents at once earlier,. But the last few turns have been a bit chaotic with all the figuring out the systems and whtnot. Which is fine. This sparring was more about doign just that than it was abut winning, losing, or gaining knowledge points.
Post by: Radio Controlled on January 15, 2017, 03:48:10 pm
Also, wow, we came this close to our first kill of the game. And in PvP too!
Post by: Ozarck on January 15, 2017, 06:02:52 pm
It looks like getting knocked out when your body drops to 0 results in wounds. Could be wrong, but it seems to make sense of the combat log up there.
Sy steps back, allows others to fight first.
Nameless attacks vokun, hits, 3 damage 53 hp
Vokun vs nameless, Fails to hit.
Sif attacks, Nameless dodges.
Nameless attempts to manueuver, fails.
Nameless attacks sif, hits, 4 damage, 10 hp
Vokun attacks Sif, sif dodges
Sif attacks, misses.
Nameless attacks Sif, hits, massive difference in rolls, double damage roll , 6+3, 1 hp left
Vokun attacks, misses
Sif attacks, misses
Nameless misses
Vokun misses
Sif attacks nameless, nameless dodges.
Nameless attacks sif, misses
Vokun misses nameless
Sif attacks nameless, nameless dodges
Nameless misses
Vokun punches nameless, KO! I think this is where Sifeebt was taken out of the fight, as Nameless was clearly not KO'd here.
Nameless punches vokun, 1 damage, 52 hp
Vokun punches nameless, 4 damage, 58 hp
Nameless punches, 4 damage, 48 hp
Vokun misses
Nameless hits, 1 damage, 47 HP
(Christ this takes forever with fists. Almost like it's not balanced around punching people to death.)
Vokun hits, 4 damage, 54 hp
Nameless hits, 1 damage, 46
Vokun hits, 5 damage, 49 hp
Nameless hits 4 damage, 42 hp
Just fucking trading blows here. Its a Slobberknocker!
Vokun Hits, 4 damage, 45
Nameless hits, 6 damage, 36 HP
Vokun fucking hits, 6 damage, 39 HP
Nameless hits, 1 damage, 35 hp
Vokun hits, 5 damage, 34 HP
Nameless hits, 6 damage, 29 HP
VOKUN YEILDS!
Vokun, you get enough knowledge to finish your guide, (assuming a good build roll)
Nameless gets 40 knowledge towards his technique. That doubling damage thing seems fine to me, you get double or they do.
Sif gets a broken nose!
Post by: syvarris on January 15, 2017, 07:00:39 pm
Post by: Ozarck on January 15, 2017, 07:51:11 pm
Well, maybe there is a roll PW does where there is a 1% chance that going unconscious while sparring results in death. That seems like extra work for him though.
Post by: Devastator on January 15, 2017, 08:44:39 pm
Post by: piecewise on January 15, 2017, 10:51:35 pm
Maybe we should first check if we can actually walk next to this river, or if it spans the width of the cavern. If the latter we'll need to find a way to wade through the "roaring black waters" or use the drill to keep digging in parallel to it until we're close enough to the light source.
Also, wow, we came this close to our first kill of the game. And in PvP too!
*COUGH*Crawlercangoonceilings*COUGH*
Post by: Ozarck on January 16, 2017, 12:38:02 am
Oh wait, Nameless isn't Sebastian.
Never mind, I'll be a passenger
Post by: Radio Controlled on January 16, 2017, 02:33:46 am
Maybe we should first check if we can actually walk next to this river, or if it spans the width of the cavern. If the latter we'll need to find a way to wade through the "roaring black waters" or use the drill to keep digging in parallel to it until we're close enough to the light source.*COUGH*Crawlercangoonceilings*COUGH*
Also, wow, we came this close to our first kill of the game. And in PvP too!
Yeah, forgot to list that option, though if I could choose I'd prefer drilling above using the crawler I think. Not to mention our critical lack of pilots.
Post by: Egan_BW on January 16, 2017, 02:36:37 am
Post by: Radio Controlled on January 16, 2017, 02:50:12 am
Couldn't you just use the Bore's legs? Either stand on the riverbed or grip the two walls.Perhaps, though the water is described as being kinda wild, and I don't know if the drill's legs could stretch all the way to the sides of the cavern. Still, yeah, we have plenty of options, but since we only have 1 pilot it'll be her who gets to decide I guess.
Post by: Ozarck on January 16, 2017, 06:10:36 am
Post by: Radio Controlled on January 16, 2017, 08:26:10 am
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Hey Corsair, I think you might have a few points too many for your abilities? Like 50 or so if I'm not mistaken.
Post by: syvarris on January 16, 2017, 03:06:57 pm
Couldn't you just use the Bore's legs? Either stand on the riverbed or grip the two walls.Perhaps, though the water is described as being kinda wild, and I don't know if the drill's legs could stretch all the way to the sides of the cavern. Still, yeah, we have plenty of options, but since we only have 1 pilot it'll be her who gets to decide I guess.
MJ's also a pilot, and a bit more specced for offensive combat. No dodge, but he actually has Blast, and therefore isn't useless in a fight.
Post by: piecewise on January 16, 2017, 05:35:36 pm
Huh, this sums up my GM style pretty well.
Post by: Pancaek on January 16, 2017, 05:56:53 pm
Post by: Ozarck on January 16, 2017, 05:57:00 pm
Post by: piecewise on January 16, 2017, 06:04:08 pm
Post by: syvarris on January 16, 2017, 10:11:36 pm
Post by: piecewise on January 16, 2017, 10:35:08 pm
Can we t... toy with the designs a bit, adding penalties and benefits? For instance, piling on way more armor onto the soldier suit, reducing move/dodge/cover in exchange for extra damage reduction?Maybe, but its gonna be limited. No getting better than higher tier armor.
Post by: piecewise on January 16, 2017, 10:36:17 pm
(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/564x/c9/53/4d/c9534d2c18ba8a05ac6ec23e336cec4f.jpg)
Post by: Devastator on January 17, 2017, 12:14:51 am
Post by: Ozarck on January 17, 2017, 12:42:55 am
Post by: Radio Controlled on January 17, 2017, 09:37:30 am
Couldn't you just use the Bore's legs? Either stand on the riverbed or grip the two walls.Perhaps, though the water is described as being kinda wild, and I don't know if the drill's legs could stretch all the way to the sides of the cavern. Still, yeah, we have plenty of options, but since we only have 1 pilot it'll be her who gets to decide I guess.
MJ's also a pilot, and a bit more specced for offensive combat. No dodge, but he actually has Blast, and therefore isn't useless in a fight.
Well wadda'ya know, he is. Must've missed him. That's good, now we have a backup pilot, less chance we get stranded here (we could always have someone generate a new pilot char out of thin air if we ever run out I guess, but that feels kinda lame).
By the way, just to let ya guys know, because things are made by you in game they can vary in form. So that soldier's suit can pretty much be anything so long as its a big suit of semi-modern plate armor.
Can we t... toy with the designs a bit, adding penalties and benefits? For instance, piling on way more armor onto the soldier suit, reducing move/dodge/cover in exchange for extra damage reduction?Maybe, but its gonna be limited. No getting better than higher tier armor.
That sounds interesting... What would be the requirements for doing this? An extra build roll? And do we have to specify such modifications beforehand?
For the record, I'm reasonably sure Pancaek won't be switching out the chance to run around in a crypto-fascist's wet dream of an armored suit.
Post by: Gentlefish on January 17, 2017, 01:05:07 pm
Post by: Pancaek on January 17, 2017, 02:00:42 pm
For the record, I'm reasonably sure Pancaek won't be switching out the chance to run around in a crypto-fascist's wet dream of an armored suit.Fascist armour is best armour.
The Jin-Roh armour is up there with my personal favourites for sure. Helghast armour is similar, but doesn't have the cool armoured plates.
Post by: Ozarck on January 17, 2017, 04:36:43 pm
Post by: Ozarck on January 17, 2017, 04:39:23 pm
Preferably an autopilot for plot stability.
Post by: Pancaek on January 17, 2017, 04:50:13 pm
-snip-phone and internet companies are the worst.
You know what else is bullshit? Eyeglasses frames. I can understand that I've got to pay a decent chunk of money for the lenses, because they need to be just right and the optician needs to fit them to sit correctly on my face and whatnot. But the frames have no business costing 150+ euro.
Post by: Radio Controlled on January 17, 2017, 06:35:32 pm
Post by: Ozarck on January 17, 2017, 08:15:12 pm
We could do a small timeskip, let the builders finish whatever they're doing and get butts in seats to start exploring.We're gonna be waiting for the builder/drivers every frikken mission. PW is already manipulating time so builders can work faster while we are on missions.
if we need to rely on a player to cart us around, it's gonna be problematic. build is gonna become super unbalanced, and we're all gonna be dependent on drivers for everything. they decide where the machine goes, they decide when the crawler goes out, they decide which locations to explore.
Post by: AoshimaMichio on January 17, 2017, 11:50:42 pm
Well fuck. AT&T has finally pissed me off enough to say screw it and move on to another carrier. God I hate that fucking company. Sadly, unless I go pay as you go, no one is cheaper. And none are loyal to the customer, They don't give a fuck at all. Hell, you need a phone for work and so forth, so they got you over a barrel. I Really hate phone companies. I have for 20 years now. They're worse than pharmaceutical companies.
Then move over to Finland. Unlimited, full rate connection for phone: 14€/month, no extra costs. Unlimited, 300/10 cable connection for PC: 60 €/month (25€ for me), no extra costs.
Post by: Radio Controlled on January 18, 2017, 03:38:18 am
We could do a small timeskip, let the builders finish whatever they're doing and get butts in seats to start exploring.We're gonna be waiting for the builder/drivers every frikken mission. PW is already manipulating time so builders can work faster while we are on missions.
if we need to rely on a player to cart us around, it's gonna be problematic. build is gonna become super unbalanced, and we're all gonna be dependent on drivers for everything. they decide where the machine goes, they decide when the crawler goes out, they decide which locations to explore.
Once builders run into knowledge limitations of what they can build, that should help alleviate that. But yes, in a game that's strictly player-driven, you're gonna run into the cat herding problem*. If you don't like the decisions the drivers are making, there's plenty of options in-game, from persuasion to bribing to threats. Finally, you could still put some points into the control ability yourself if you want to be more self-reliant.
In general, since pw said it'll be up to us to self-organize, we're gonna have this problem anyway. It sometimes took ages to get a mission ready to go in ER cause a bunch of people were ready, other weren't, some of the ready ones stopped waiting around 'cause they got bored, etc. You could always ask the pilot to drive the bore itself up to where we can disembark so that those who want to leave can leave (and get first dibs on the goodies!) while the others keep mucking about.
(*Once I can reanimate some corpses, one of the first things I was planning on making was a control-focused npc (assuming stat points can be shoved around somewhat) to make us a little less dependent there.)
Post by: NJW2000 on January 18, 2017, 02:03:30 pm
I vote for a time skip until the builders finish the armorYeah, and then a timeskip while we armour everyone else in the Bore, then one while we make them a rifle, pistol, and sword, then one while my character just finishes the cannon that shoots guns he's building.
I get where you're coming from, and I want to actually start playing too, but as time is a resource in this game timeskips like that are not going to be okay.
We're going to have to be brutally firm with people who delay us, or actually grow up and go out taking some risks, leaving projects that make us awesome/OP unfinished so we can play Piecewise's game (not that playing the game will be the eventual goal of every character, if ER is anything to go by.) Or maybe PW could help us by introducing a time factor in which we get killed off individually/lose rations or heat priviliges/something if we aren't fast, useful to the company, and helpful enough. Or some other incentive to actually play as well as craft and spar.
Though the two games are appreciably different, unless there will be a host of living engines to use in the future, I suspect control will be equally drab and equally vital to the group on occasion as AUX was in ER. As such, one wonders if its better off not being a stat, or at least not the same kind of stat as build/blast/etc.
/rant
Post by: Pancaek on January 18, 2017, 02:20:09 pm
We're going to have to be brutally firm with people who delay us, or actually grow up and go out taking some risks, leaving projects that make us awesome/OP unfinished so we can play Piecewise's game (not that playing the game will be the eventual goal of every character, if ER is anything to go by.)
I get where you're coming from, but we've really got no incentive to head out immediatly right now instead of finishing off our standard equipment. PW stated that most of our gear would come from player crafted stuff, so loot will probably be fairly scarce.
I also feel like we've got a bit of a silly thing going where build projects will often take both a large amount of knowledge gathering, which can be done somewhat passively, but also a lot of turns spend going "Yep, continue building". Maybe instead of having it take a lot of time to build, we should get some non-time based cap/resource for building. That way we could put the limit on the quantity of stuff we could make in one go, rather than limit it by the time spend on it.
Post by: The Lupanian on January 18, 2017, 03:01:26 pm
I get where you're coming from, but we've really got no incentive to head out immediatly right now instead of finishing off our standard equipment. PW stated that most of our gear would come from player crafted stuff, so loot will probably be fairly scarce.Exactly, instead of spending dozens of turns just restating that we're building, we could just skip it, then PW could just say "get out there or you're fired" if we take too long. Maybe there could be a one timeskip per mission policy or something.
I also feel like we've got a bit of a silly thing going where build projects will often take both a large amount of knowledge gathering, which can be done somewhat passively, but also a lot of turns spend going "Yep, continue building". Maybe instead of having it take a lot of time to build, we should get some non-time based cap/resource for building. That way we could put the limit on the quantity of stuff we could make in one go, rather than limit it by the time spend on it.
Post by: Pancaek on January 18, 2017, 03:11:53 pm
Or we could just go with a standard equipment list à la ER that you can buy for currency and get special equimpent on missions, and just shove the entire not-tinker thing out of the dig equivalent of an airlock.
Post by: The Lupanian on January 18, 2017, 03:18:03 pm
Post by: Ozarck on January 18, 2017, 07:59:44 pm
Maybe some kind of deep sea mechanic for drivers (or at least worm drivers) where they go slowly insane if they are inactive at driving while some driving needs done. Or at least where the y slowly lose the ability to do anything else , and start taking penalties to every other action. Now, this penalty should only acrrue if there is a current need or percieved need for transportation: drill, crawler, or other.
I know that's kind of a stretch though. I COULD restat and make a pure driver, if it becomes an issue. But that would be the end of Nameless, I think, and i'd have to make a new character. I mean, I can totally do that. hmm
Spoiler: someting along these lines maybe (click to show/hide)
Post by: Radio Controlled on January 19, 2017, 04:21:42 am
I like the idea of limited build points, which must be earned via mission. it gives the builders an incentive to get out and explore, or at least to send us out to explore. No need for the build points to be individually earned, after all.
Maybe some kind of deep sea mechanic for drivers (or at least worm drivers) where they go slowly insane if they are inactive at driving while some driving needs done. Or at least where the y slowly lose the ability to do anything else , and start taking penalties to every other action. Now, this penalty should only acrrue if there is a current need or percieved need for transportation: drill, crawler, or other.
I know that's kind of a stretch though. I COULD restat and make a pure driver, if it becomes an issue. But that would be the end of Nameless, I think, and i'd have to make a new character. I mean, I can totally do that. hmmSpoiler: someting along these lines maybe (click to show/hide)
The whole 'go insane if you don't drive/dive when needed' seems a little draconian to me, your current technique of grabbing them by the collar and dragging them (kicking and screaming optional) to where they need to be looks much more natural.
As for the new charsheet, looks good to me, though know that with Aigre now also playing a pilot we'll have three drivers to cart people around, so you could probably safely stick with Nameless. Or just shove like 60-75 points into control for Nameless as a backup and then maybe later on upgrade it a bit.
Post by: Ozarck on January 19, 2017, 06:43:38 pm
What? "Brick Wall" is a personality, isn't it?
I doubt that stuffing a driver into place will really help much, but Nameless is a direct kind of guy, so I'll roll with it. Edit: Iguess it worked after all. I read this thread before that one, so, yay!
And yeah, "going insane" was more of a conversation starter than a serious proposal. I'll hang onto a driver character though for a while.
Post by: piecewise on January 20, 2017, 09:06:13 pm
Post by: Devastator on January 20, 2017, 09:19:21 pm
Post by: Ozarck on January 20, 2017, 09:22:52 pm
Still worth it.I have been waiting for this turn of events for so long. Dev survives with 11 points to spare.
Post by: Devastator on January 20, 2017, 09:27:10 pm
Still worth it.I have been waiting for this turn of events for so long. Dev survives with 11 points to spare.
Post sheet, fall anyway when it gets to the 0 build point painting attempt. ;-)
Post by: Ozarck on January 20, 2017, 09:43:02 pm
Post by: Devastator on January 20, 2017, 09:46:27 pm
Just wait til Nameless gets frustrated and starts navigating aggressively. You might gets some company at the bottom of that waterfall.
That's more or less the centerpiece around my considerations for the next orders. (along with considerations based around continuing to not post stats, but the possible necessity of dodging mandates me doing so.)
Post by: Devastator on January 21, 2017, 03:59:34 pm
Knowledge for what? The thing you're not researching?To stack up like Scrooge McDuck, of course.
In all seriousness, though, I'd rather not make you balance powers this early in the game, but I'd still like to have it to keep score, so to speak. Or as fuel for a power should I decide to go for one at a later date.
Post by: Radio Controlled on January 21, 2017, 04:03:15 pm
Knowledge for what? The thing you're not researching?To stack up like Scrooge McDuck, of course.
Take a dive into your vault of knowledge.
Or, I dunno, start saving knowledge for something. One that gives extra fight when murdering filthy meatbags.
Post by: NAV on January 21, 2017, 07:45:19 pm
Spoiler: Work in progress (click to show/hide)
Post by: piecewise on January 22, 2017, 12:28:20 am
Sweet. Also pretty accurate. The only thing missing is the arm spooling out coms wires and the glass dome cockpit. It looks something like thisSpoiler: Work in progress (click to show/hide)
http://www.trentglass.co.uk/images/6.jpg
Post by: Pancaek on January 23, 2017, 11:50:15 am
But seriously, if you guys want to discuss alternative ways of limiting builders so that they can't crank out 50 things a post, I'm all for hearing it.Can we all put our heads together for this? Because this time limit thing really isn't going to work in the long term, at least for me. I'm not sure what the rest of you think about it, but having builders spend upwards of 10 posts saying "keep building" doesn't sound like much fun. It also means non-builders will have to wait on the builders often, so everyone loses.
Maybe we could split up knowledge? Right now knowledge stands for the actual knowledge required to make something, as well as the resources you've accumulated that are needed to make it. I think we discussed this briefly a few posts ago. Basically give everyone an X amount of resources each mission cycle and have each build project cost Y amount of said resources. Extra resources can be earned by going on missions, thus also giving an incentive for builders to go on mission so they can make more stuff.
Alternatively go back to a list of standard equipment which can be bought with currency and have special/unique items drop as loot from missions, and just completely cut out building stuff from the game. A bit drastic, I know, but if the idea is to limit "Tinker by another name" it will make sure you'll never have to deal with it again.
Post by: syvarris on January 23, 2017, 12:14:48 pm
I could see making even basic equipment cost knowledge being a good solution, even if the costs are very cheap. Maybe remove build time altogether along with that. As-is, I don't see much reason for us not to just wait a few weeks to make full plate armor for everyone. Making said armor actually have some cost aside from time invested would instantly fix that.
Post by: Gentlefish on January 23, 2017, 01:43:44 pm
Then when the parts are machined out, there's a build roll to assemble it, which may take some time depending on the complexity, but considering the length of "turns" here, a single roll or x rolls with y successes minimum (if complex) should be doable in a single turn. Failure requires either a partial or total rebuilding.
Post by: piecewise on January 23, 2017, 02:01:28 pm
Post by: Egan_BW on January 23, 2017, 02:18:55 pm
Post by: Radio Controlled on January 23, 2017, 02:23:19 pm
I'm gonna go have a shower and think about the possibilities of crafting. I'll be back, hopefully with ideas.And clean bones, presumably.
Post by: piecewise on January 23, 2017, 03:40:22 pm
Possiblity 1: Time based constraints. Current. Crap
Possibility 2: Traditional crafting constrained by access to specific materials. Pros: retrains crafting in a realistic fashion. Cons: Requires each item to have a list of components, a lot of book keeping and limited custom utility. Meh.
Possibility 3: Single item crafting. The idea that each project needs one specific rare item to be done. Pros: restrains crafting without requiring as much bookkeeping or fiddly searching. More simple than classic crafting. Cons: Effectively just a level of abstraction; if one item is all thats needed than really why not just find the object itself as loot because thats effectively what you've done. Its like a voucher for your gun or armor or whatever. Not to mention it also means that we run into the thing where I'll have to start doling out these specific items in specific ways to keep things balanced. Also has limited custom utility.
Possibility 4: Builder tickets: You can make whatever instantly so long as you're on the ship and meet certain requirements, but you can only make so many things in a single time period. Pros: It would work, maybe. Cons: Completely artificial and thus annoying and bullshit. Could say it represented time or whatever but then things get increasingly abstract. Also it becomes builder foodstamps and I don't like being that guy handing out cans of value brand weapons on the government dime.
Possibility 5: Tag system: So I got this idea thinking back about the test we did a while back with perplexicon as objects. Specifically rather than basing crafting on specific item recipes, I base it on specific tags and give these tags to items. For example, lets say you want to make a gun, a pistol specifically. The pistol has a recipe of
Pistol: Structure 3, Blast 1, Projectile 1
That means you need a material with the tag of "Structure" at quality 3, a material with Blast quality 1 and material that is projectile 1 as well.
Structure would be found on just about anything that is solid enough to build out of. Wood, metal, bone, brick, stone, etc. Stronger materials have higher quality.
Blast would be on things that burn or explode, higher quality, bigger boom.
Projectile would be on anything that can be used as a projectile, from ball bearings to pebbles to darts. Better quality would mean bigger damage.
So basically what we would have is a big list of tags and I would look at an item and say "That looks like it needs these tags of this quality" and crafters could try to find literally anything that fit those tags (or higher) and use those things. No recipe calling for the specific snot of some critter that you may never find. Instead we may end up with lots of weird but interesting stuff like people carving pistols out of whale bones and using bullets made of fire elemental blood and golem eyeballs.
But hey, thats pretty neat.
Post by: Radio Controlled on January 23, 2017, 03:57:10 pm
After that, option 4 seems straightforward and easy, though indeed perhaps too abstract to be very immersive.
Post by: piecewise on January 23, 2017, 04:52:15 pm
Option 5 sounds sounds quite interesting, but also potentially a lot of work (on your part at the very least, needing to come up with a tag list) and still quite some bookkeeping. And I could see a lot of haggling/balancing what materials can satisfy which tag requirements to what degree and what the end result looks like. Still, it could lead to some weird and unique combinations. Might give a lot of room for tinker though, fair warning.Let me look at some stuff and try to make some braining about what that tag list would be.
After that, option 4 seems straightforward and easy, though indeed perhaps too abstract to be very immersive.
Post by: Radio Controlled on January 23, 2017, 05:09:27 pm
Post by: piecewise on January 23, 2017, 05:21:49 pm
Maybe also think about how knowledge requirements (and gathering, eg by finding items or parts) would slot into this system?I might remove knowledge for crafting and keep it for techniques
Post by: piecewise on January 23, 2017, 06:20:08 pm
Post by: Pancaek on January 23, 2017, 06:34:16 pm
Post by: Gentlefish on January 23, 2017, 06:42:10 pm
Would the find skill play into finding these materials? Because with option 5, I think having a character that's good at finding neat materials for builders might actually be just as fun if not more fun than building itself, at least for me.
It's why I took find :P
But yeah, the tags thing sounds like fun. May make my machining useless, but I don't care if I can have a bone-turret firing flesh-eating bugs.
Might be time to boot up the wiki-gnomes
Post by: piecewise on January 23, 2017, 06:58:53 pm
Would the find skill play into finding these materials? Because with option 5, I think having a character that's good at finding neat materials for builders might actually be just as fun if not more fun than building itself, at least for me.Yep. I mean, you need good find to see some stuff, and to get it out of what its in. You thing someone with shit find will be able to tell the difference between useless fish bones and super neat hard as steel fish bones by just looking at a flayed open fish man? Course not. Think they'll notice the berries or fungi that might have interesting properties? No.
It might indeed be.Would the find skill play into finding these materials? Because with option 5, I think having a character that's good at finding neat materials for builders might actually be just as fun if not more fun than building itself, at least for me.
It's why I took find :P
But yeah, the tags thing sounds like fun. May make my machining useless, but I don't care if I can have a bone-turret firing flesh-eating bugs.
Might be time to boot up the wiki-gnomes
Post by: The Lupanian on January 23, 2017, 07:42:46 pm
Second is a question, how exactly did ER get a tv tropes page? I wasn't around then, so I don't know what exactly happened.
Post by: Ozarck on January 23, 2017, 08:43:22 pm
Structure: metallic
Structure: organic
structure: stone
Power source: crystal
power source: liquid fuel
power source: metaphysical
Another option in terms of limiting how much builders make is requiring expeditions to return to the drill with quantities of items. The more the quantity we return with, the more building can be done. "You return with 50 basic material. Builders can build 10 mundane or 2 exotic items!"
Post by: piecewise on January 23, 2017, 10:29:15 pm
Two things, one. Maybe you could say that as the bore drills, it takes in a small amount of stuff, so there's like, up to five units of level 1 or 2 hard material available after we dig, that way there's a small trickle of matirial available to make simple things, but the container is small, so it can only take in a little bit of stuff before the container is full.Maybe
Second is a question, how exactly did ER get a tv tropes page? I wasn't around then, so I don't know what exactly happened.
I forget, people made it a while ago though.
tagging stuff seems okay. some suggestions for tags might be:It's really simpler that. Think more like this:
Structure: metallic
Structure: organic
structure: stone
Power source: crystal
power source: liquid fuel
power source: metaphysical
Another option in terms of limiting how much builders make is requiring expeditions to return to the drill with quantities of items. The more the quantity we return with, the more building can be done. "You return with 50 basic material. Builders can build 10 mundane or 2 exotic items!"
Powersource 1: Gasoline
Powersource 5: Nuclear reactor
Powersource 10: The beating heart of an Undergod.
And some things have dual tags, for instance, a lead brick might be both Structural and Heavy.
Post by: piecewise on January 23, 2017, 11:57:03 pm
You guys, give me ideas for stuff you wanna build. It helps me think.
Post by: Egan_BW on January 24, 2017, 12:36:39 am
Post by: Devastator on January 24, 2017, 12:37:01 am
Post by: Egan_BW on January 24, 2017, 12:38:55 am
Post by: Devastator on January 24, 2017, 12:41:53 am
Also: A hat that you can pull small objects and creatures from.
Post by: The Lupanian on January 24, 2017, 02:40:13 am
Post by: NJW2000 on January 24, 2017, 02:59:21 am
Flaming claws
Gatling gun
Mortar
Pogo stick
Post by: Radio Controlled on January 24, 2017, 05:38:50 am
HEY!
You guys, give me ideas for stuff you wanna build. It helps me think.
Well, for starters, lots of things that are already (more or less) in the standard equipment list. Such as various depth drives and mantras. And maybe even one of those weapons you have to pull from the deep sea.
For items that are not in the list, stuff from grenades (frag, smoke, flashbang, etc.) to medkits (body and mind) to deployable shields.
What I'd personally would really like to 'build' though are body modifications. Mostly for things I reanimate. So that instead of getting something with the same number in every stat I could shift the points around in a way that makes sense given the form of the body. Eg. If we find a small mammal (like a dog) I'd supersize its sensory organs and give it steel claws and jaws, giving a minion with high find, fight and move. Or take a corpse of a human, give it multiple mechadendrites and an inspector Gadget-style unfoldable toolbox to create a build-oriented creature for maintenance or field repairs.
Also, building or modding vehicles is always cool. Such as placing a big honking autocannon on top of the crawler, building a motorized palanquin to laze about as the psychic bullshit starts or small cyborgs controlled by the brains of the reanimated (potentially overlaps with body modding).
Oh, and making some changes to our bore, such as cannon upgrades, blast shields that can be controlled from the bridge, turning the sanctuary into a reinforced panic/containment room (depending on how well the dive is going) and more.
One thing that might be nice about this system is that it'll allow for more inter-player economy if they can barter with build items. And if you want a piece of kit but don't have any build, you could still gather/pay for the materials yourself and then pay/convince/threaten a builder into making it for you. (Might need some form of fiat money to make it a bit easier though.
Post by: Pancaek on January 24, 2017, 09:48:48 am
It would be cool if weapons/armour/upgrades could get extra propreties when using rare/weird materials. Get some kind of monster hunter thing going.
Post by: The Lupanian on January 24, 2017, 11:37:42 am
Post by: Devastator on January 24, 2017, 12:03:58 pm
Post by: piecewise on January 24, 2017, 05:39:56 pm
Bore cannon autoloader.Depends on how its described to work, but if it just acts like a giant magazine with a spring and reserve of rounds, probably something like Mechanical 3 for the mechanism and Elastic 4 for the spring with some structural 3 in there too.
I'd like to get some kinda non-renewable consumable booster. (it was the goal with my last knowledge order)Booster as in rocket or as in steroid?
A big old wind-up key that you can stick into corpses and wind them up to become your minions.Structural 3, Mechanical 2, Deep 1, Containing 3. You can swap out Deep 1-10 to get better animating effects.
Also, is it still a thing to require a transcendance or build roll to get an ability?I'm not sure what you mean.
Also: A hat that you can pull small objects and creatures from.
Magically or just a container for small animals shaped like a hat?
A replacement finger with a retractable razorbladeStructural 3-Sharp at least 4 on the razor, and Structural 3, Mechanical 1 for the finger if you just want it to be a normal prosthetic. If you want it to flex and act like a real finger, that requires higher mechanical ratings and probably Weird 1, sensing 2. And elastic 3 for skin, if such is desired.
Really accurate sniper rifle
Flaming claws
Gatling gun
Mortar
Pogo stick
Most guns are gonna have some mix of structural 3 or higher, explosive of probably 3-4, higher for cannons and such, low-level mechanical systems and projectile of varying degrees. A sniper rifle would probably have various other things such as 2-3 level transmitting for optics and smooth. Boost any of those levels as needed, such as mechanical for gatling guns and explosive and structural for mortars.
Pogo stick is structural 3 and elastic in the 4 range.
HEY!
You guys, give me ideas for stuff you wanna build. It helps me think.
Well, for starters, lots of things that are already (more or less) in the standard equipment list. Such as various depth drives and mantras. And maybe even one of those weapons you have to pull from the deep sea.
For items that are not in the list, stuff from grenades (frag, smoke, flashbang, etc.) to medkits (body and mind) to deployable shields.
What I'd personally would really like to 'build' though are body modifications. Mostly for things I reanimate. So that instead of getting something with the same number in every stat I could shift the points around in a way that makes sense given the form of the body. Eg. If we find a small mammal (like a dog) I'd supersize its sensory organs and give it steel claws and jaws, giving a minion with high find, fight and move. Or take a corpse of a human, give it multiple mechadendrites and an inspector Gadget-style unfoldable toolbox to create a build-oriented creature for maintenance or field repairs.
Also, building or modding vehicles is always cool. Such as placing a big honking autocannon on top of the crawler, building a motorized palanquin to laze about as the psychic bullshit starts or small cyborgs controlled by the brains of the reanimated (potentially overlaps with body modding).
Oh, and making some changes to our bore, such as cannon upgrades, blast shields that can be controlled from the bridge, turning the sanctuary into a reinforced panic/containment room (depending on how well the dive is going) and more.
One thing that might be nice about this system is that it'll allow for more inter-player economy if they can barter with build items. And if you want a piece of kit but don't have any build, you could still gather/pay for the materials yourself and then pay/convince/threaten a builder into making it for you. (Might need some form of fiat money to make it a bit easier though.
A lot of depth drives and such will be varying mechanical levels with other stuff thrown in, especially Weird and Deep. Basically any body mods are gonna have Mechanical, Organic, weird, and deep in them. Mechanical and organic for obvious reasons, Weird and Deep because smearing some eldrich onto a machine makes it work, right?
Building vehicles would be more a deal of getting lots of relatively low level parts rather than getting a few high level ones. A car is not mechanical 10. Its more like 10 mechanical 3s.
Here's the list of tags
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1meK-H_XwZ5pQg-PbUJFLEFaDfh_BewuF_7RmGV6NEl4/edit?usp=sharing
As you can probably tell, it's rare for an object to only have one tag. A box of lead balls is good as both projectile and Heavy for instance. The idea is finding objects that have the tags you need, and it should be fairly obvious after a while for most things. You can also manipulate some of the tags and use some tags interchangibly with slightly different outcomes.
For instance, one thing I didn't talk about is the flaming claws from NJW. That could use either something with a high Temperature number, which would be rare but makes the claws last forever. But something flammable could also be used, which would make them work just the same BUT they'd have ammo because the fuel would get used up.
Post by: Egan_BW on January 24, 2017, 06:11:32 pm
Post by: The Lupanian on January 24, 2017, 06:16:30 pm
Post by: piecewise on January 24, 2017, 07:07:19 pm
You might want to change Heavy to Weight, which would work the same way as Temperature, with 5 being normal, lower numbers being a lighter material, higher numbers being heavier. This way you can require materials that are lightweight, like if you wanted to build a hang glider or something.A good idea except that temp has a norm, ie room temp, but weight doesn't. Instead I modified the definition.
Post by: syvarris on January 24, 2017, 09:21:23 pm
I'm sorry, but this strikes me as just a horrible idea all round. Tinker is pain... so you're making Tinker again? Even if the system weren't clearly designed for it, there's gonna be a lot of "Oh, can I use X instead of Y here, to get Z bonus/penalty?". Unless there's no difference between using elastic 3 (rubber) for your magazine and using elastic 3 (skin).
Post by: Ozarck on January 24, 2017, 09:34:48 pm
While on mission but submerged in a frikken underground river, The driver has a necessary role, the robot can act if it chooses (and possibly so can Nameless[being a corpse], but why would he?) and builders continue to build.
I am detecting a flaw in gameflow.
Post by: piecewise on January 24, 2017, 09:47:01 pm
So, structural 1 and 2 are essentially useless, eh? Everything described needed at least Structural 3.No, they're not useful for building a gun. Do you build a gun out of paper? Or plastic? If someone wanted to make a book they would need
I'm sorry, but this strikes me as just a horrible idea all round. Tinker is pain... so you're making Tinker again? Even if the system weren't clearly designed for it, there's gonna be a lot of "Oh, can I use X instead of Y here, to get Z bonus/penalty?". Unless there's no difference between using elastic 3 (rubber) for your magazine and using elastic 3 (skin).
And no, there is no difference. That's literally the idea. The thing with the burning claws that I pointed out was the fact that different materials can produce similar but still different results. Elastic 3 is identical regardless of what it is. Metal spring or tiny springy belly of an obese mouse; if it is elastic 3 it works.
Okay. While digging, the driver has a necessary role, and builders have time to build while the rest of us faff about.Ok, I'll stop making posts as we wait for one person then.
While on mission but submerged in a frikken underground river, The driver has a necessary role, the robot can act if it chooses (and possibly so can Nameless[being a corpse], but why would he?) and builders continue to build.
I am detecting a flaw in gameflow.
Post by: Devastator on January 24, 2017, 11:55:03 pm
Booster as in rocket or as in steroid?
Considering the whole 'being an engineheart' thing, either way works. I was mostly thinking of it as a way to get something out of a 40 or a 50, but it would be pretty limited, such as one stat for one turn, with charges that can only be refilled via knowledge-fueled unlock.
Post by: Radio Controlled on January 25, 2017, 03:22:22 am
So because Radio Controled is the only person responding to me on the radio, and he specifically said he was running to the bridge to pass along information. In my head I imagine that they messed up the wiring, so instead of going to the main comms, the Crawler's radio transmits to some random pay phone near the workshop, and RC just happened to be nearby when it started ringing, so he picked it up, but was so shocked by what I was saying that he didn't have time to even think about how strange it is.*Dring dring*
"Hello?"
"OH GOD SPIDERS EVERYWHERE HELP US."
"Hold up, I think you have the wrong number, I'll go fetch the cap'n."
"NO JUST COME GET U-" *muffled shooting and spidernoises*
...
"The driver is taking a nap, should I pass a message along when she wakes up?"
"SKREE SKREE SKREE" *spidernoises*
"...I'll tell her you said hi."
Now that materials gathering isn't assumed to be abstracted through gathering knowledge anymore, and anything you wanna build will require finding parts, does that mean having some find will be absolutely necessary? Or can we assume that like with Dev's pebble case, if something should be very obviously there that we'll have access to it?
Okay. While digging, the driver has a necessary role, and builders have time to build while the rest of us faff about.The time to build thing seems like it'll be getting removed. But yes, in this specific scenario the environment kinda limits your options (though you could always go for a swim! Take a swan dive down the waterfall!) It's like the situation in ER with shuttles: if you aren't piloting, you can kick back and relax or try to get some rp going, but you can't do a whole lot of significance (that's not detrimental, mind, could always start trashing the crawler and see where that brings you).
While on mission but submerged in a frikken underground river, The driver has a necessary role, the robot can act if it chooses (and possibly so can Nameless[being a corpse], but why would he?) and builders continue to build.
I am detecting a flaw in gameflow.
I'm sorry, but this strikes me as just a horrible idea all round. Tinker is pain... so you're making Tinker again? Even if the system weren't clearly designed for it, there's gonna be a lot of "Oh, can I use X instead of Y here, to get Z bonus/penalty?". Unless there's no difference between using elastic 3 (rubber) for your magazine and using elastic 3 (skin).If this really doesn't work out we could still switch to something simpler (just requiring knowledge for every item would be straightforward, if very abstract). PW will just have to put his foot down more often I guess to help curb the worst excesses of tinker.
Post by: piecewise on January 25, 2017, 11:03:48 am
All people building, your work is now finished, you get the thing you were working on for free.
From now on if you wanna make something, tell me what you want to make and I'll give you a recipe, and you'll try to find items that fit it. Keep in mind that I'm not gonna sit around and tag every possible item we come across, so instead what you wanna do is look for items that seem like they might fit the bill and examine them to see if they do.
No negotiating on recipes.
Post by: NJW2000 on January 25, 2017, 11:09:51 am
Post by: Pancaek on January 25, 2017, 11:15:23 am
Recipes in main thread, ooc, where? Where do we ask?
In addition to that, just so that I'm sure I understand correctly, you now need only said recipes to build something right? No more knowledge?
Post by: piecewise on January 25, 2017, 12:48:09 pm
Recipes in main thread, ooc, where? Where do we ask?Either, really.
Yep, as long as you have the stuff, you can make it. The rarity of items restrains where knowledge once did.Recipes in main thread, ooc, where? Where do we ask?
In addition to that, just so that I'm sure I understand correctly, you now need only said recipes to build something right? No more knowledge?
Post by: NJW2000 on January 25, 2017, 12:57:02 pm
Right, suppose I want eye enhancements, preferably connected to my brain/ operated without using up my hands, that can zoom/magnify up to 5x, see in darkness as well as a developed nocturnal mammal, have enhanced protection against weaponised violent flashes/changes in light intensity, and are just really good at spotting things, on the whole. And they've got to be green. What materials do I need?
Might as well set a format precedent for recipe requests.
Post by: Devastator on January 25, 2017, 01:00:36 pm
How much for retractable roller-skates that give a boost to cover (from moving around), and a penalty to blast (from moving around)?
Post by: Gentlefish on January 25, 2017, 01:43:25 pm
Recipe Request
Right, suppose I want eye enhancements, preferably connected to my brain/ operated without using up my hands, that can zoom/magnify up to 5x, see in darkness as well as a developed nocturnal mammal, have enhanced protection against weaponised violent flashes/changes in light intensity, and are just really good at spotting things, on the whole. And they've got to be green. What materials do I need?
Might as well set a format precedent for recipe requests.
So, you want cameyes :P
Recipe request
How can I make a TF 2 sentry? Semi-autonomous, repairable, deployable gunturret?
Also,
Field trauma kits for both organics and synthetics
Post by: Pancaek on January 25, 2017, 01:54:24 pm
Grenades (last time I asked they came in a box of 20)
Booby trap explosives
Repair kit/medkit
Rifle scope
Belt fed machine gun
Antitank rifle
Stabilizer
Magnetic Globe
Souljar
Enhancement Wire
I know it's a lot at once, but we might as well get these out of the way. I'm sure there are a few that will interest other people as well.
-Edit-: Also, I changed up my char sheet, shifted points from build to find because of the new system we'll be using. I hope that's okay, since we haven't gone on mission yet.
Post by: Radio Controlled on January 25, 2017, 03:08:19 pm
OK we're gonna give tags a try. If they suck, we'll just do builder food stamps.And just in time too! At least we can say we still earned our suit (kinda. Sorta.)
All people building, your work is now finished, you get the thing you were working on for free.
From now on if you wanna make something, tell me what you want to make and I'll give you a recipe, and you'll try to find items that fit it. Keep in mind that I'm not gonna sit around and tag every possible item we come across, so instead what you wanna do is look for items that seem like they might fit the bill and examine them to see if they do.
No negotiating on recipes.
I do have some questions though:
1) Can I keep the 15 knowledge I had towards a depth drive and put it into something else?
2) Examining things to find out what tags they have, does that need a roll, and if yes what do you roll for it?
3) Now that materials gathering isn't assumed to be abstracted through gathering knowledge anymore, and anything you wanna build will require finding parts, does that mean having some find will be absolutely necessary? Or can we assume that like with Dev's pebble case, if something should be very obviously there that we'll have access to it? Or will Find just be needed to find 'the good stuff' as opposed to 'anything at all'?
What would one need to build the following:
1) depth drive
2) mantra of lesser truths
3) 'medkit' for replenishing mindpoints (booze?)
Post by: piecewise on January 25, 2017, 05:49:47 pm
Recipe RequestAlright lets see.
Right, suppose I want eye enhancements, preferably connected to my brain/ operated without using up my hands, that can zoom/magnify up to 5x, see in darkness as well as a developed nocturnal mammal, have enhanced protection against weaponised violent flashes/changes in light intensity, and are just really good at spotting things, on the whole. And they've got to be green. What materials do I need?
Might as well set a format precedent for recipe requests.
We're gonna assume you're modifying your eyes not building new ones. Because new ones are harder. Zoom and magnify multiple times as part of an organic system is either gonna need Organic 6 or mechanical 5. Either works. Flash protection will need sensing 2, transmitting 3, and structural...2 should work. Green would need marking...lets call it 3 so it doesn't come off in your eyes, and better spotting, I assume that means you want to have a boost to find right?
Thats where we get into problems. The current thing would be a boost of like +3. Because find is only partially connected to how good your eyes are, a lot of it is mental. Boosting the mental means we start mixing in Deep and Weird. And their levels go up drastically depending on the boost.
Recipe RequestThe way you're describing it, that would actually just be letting you use Control to dodge shots rather than Blast.
How much for retractable roller-skates that give a boost to cover (from moving around), and a penalty to blast (from moving around)?
Recipe Request
Right, suppose I want eye enhancements, preferably connected to my brain/ operated without using up my hands, that can zoom/magnify up to 5x, see in darkness as well as a developed nocturnal mammal, have enhanced protection against weaponised violent flashes/changes in light intensity, and are just really good at spotting things, on the whole. And they've got to be green. What materials do I need?
Might as well set a format precedent for recipe requests.
So, you want cameyes :P
Recipe request
How can I make a TF 2 sentry? Semi-autonomous, repairable, deployable gunturret?
Also,
Field trauma kits for both organics and synthetics
Every word there bumps up the difficulty you know. First, how big a gun we talking in terms of damage? Choose one of our listed ones and we'll use that as the gun part of the gun. Repairable is...well everything can be repaired but it might need more than hitting it with a wrench. Self-repairing is much more complex. Semi-autonomous is gonna need intelligent of at least a low level. You could probably squeak by with an Int-2 but it might have some nasty friendly fire problems. Higher the better really. Well...maybe not too high. Skynet and so forth. Deployable...well that depends on how small it needs to be. Smaller means higher Mechanics.
Trauma kits would probably be like restorative 2-3 and Organic ones would have organic 2, mechanical would have mechanical 2.
Recipe request:Grenades are gonna be like Structure 3, Explosive 2 at least, Mechanical 1. Which means like a metal can, something with a relatively big boom and a fuse. Only makes one but its fairly simple materials.
Grenades (last time I asked they came in a box of 20)
Booby trap explosives
Repair kit/medkit
Rifle scope
Belt fed machine gun
Antitank rifle
Stabilizer
Magnetic Globe
Souljar
Enhancement Wire
I know it's a lot at once, but we might as well get these out of the way. I'm sure there are a few that will interest other people as well.
Booby trap explosive is gonna be the same but with a sensing 1 and transmitting 1.
Repair med kit ALREADY COVERED
Rifle scope is gonna be structural 3 and Mechanical 3, transmitting 2.
Belt fed machine gun will be structural, Mechanical, projectile and explosive, the exact numbers depending on power.
Anti-tank rifle would need mostly the same but pretty high numbers. Like Structural 5, Projectile 5, Explosive 5, Mechanical 2.
I don't have the stuff in front of me right now but for all the living engines it's mostly all gonna be mechanical, organic, weird and deep. The big holding point will be those weirld and deep parts, so focus on grabbing some shit from the deep and anything weird. At least stuff from levels 3-4 first.
SureOK we're gonna give tags a try. If they suck, we'll just do builder food stamps.And just in time too! At least we can say we still earned our suit (kinda. Sorta.)
All people building, your work is now finished, you get the thing you were working on for free.
From now on if you wanna make something, tell me what you want to make and I'll give you a recipe, and you'll try to find items that fit it. Keep in mind that I'm not gonna sit around and tag every possible item we come across, so instead what you wanna do is look for items that seem like they might fit the bill and examine them to see if they do.
No negotiating on recipes.
I do have some questions though:
1) Can I keep the 15 knowledge I had towards a depth drive and put it into something else?
2) Examining things to find out what tags they have, does that need a roll, and if yes what do you roll for it?
3) Now that materials gathering isn't assumed to be abstracted through gathering knowledge anymore, and anything you wanna build will require finding parts, does that mean having some find will be absolutely necessary? Or can we assume that like with Dev's pebble case, if something should be very obviously there that we'll have access to it? Or will Find just be needed to find 'the good stuff' as opposed to 'anything at all'?
What would one need to build the following:
1) depth drive
2) mantra of lesser truths
3) 'medkit' for replenishing mindpoints (booze?)
Depends. Somethings should be obvious to you as a player after a while, but if you get some alien booger and you don't know what the fuck it does, then FIND is the roll thats made.
Really that depends highly on you and other things. Like, dev found a pebble because he's in a fucking rock cave. There's a point at which rolls would be stupid to do. But in general you'll have access to some basic materials in the Bore. Structural 3 is like steel, so thats fairly obvious. But like Organic 2? Thats blood or something like it, so its around but a bit harder to get. And Weird or Deep 1? Thats harder.
See radio for depth drive,
Mantra is found or gifted
Mind Medkit...Probably...Shit I have to add a new tag I knew I forgot. "Chemical". It would be chemical and organic, with levels connected to how much it restores.
Post by: Gentlefish on January 25, 2017, 06:06:54 pm
Post by: syvarris on January 25, 2017, 06:27:39 pm
So, structural 1 and 2 are essentially useless, eh? Everything described needed at least Structural 3.No, they're not useful for building a gun. Do you build a gun out of paper? Or plastic? If someone wanted to make a book they would need
I'm sorry, but this strikes me as just a horrible idea all round. Tinker is pain... so you're making Tinker again? Even if the system weren't clearly designed for it, there's gonna be a lot of "Oh, can I use X instead of Y here, to get Z bonus/penalty?". Unless there's no difference between using elastic 3 (rubber) for your magazine and using elastic 3 (skin).
Sure, I get that you need structural 3 for a gun, but what about a finger? Or a magazine? It would be impossible to make an artificial bone finger? Or a hardwood magazine? Out of all the items you've described so far, you've said Structural 3 is required, except for an artificial eye which needed only two. That's somewhat fair, since stone is fairly decent structurally and should be practically infinite for us, but still. I feel like a system where you have to balance costs for everything players want to build will cause problems.
I digress , though. How about some recipes?
Soldier's Suit
Havel's set, or any other sort of
A club
A really big club
A robot body with a Body of 100
A robot body with a Body of 21
Post by: Egan_BW on January 25, 2017, 07:11:06 pm
An organic replacement limb, covered in muscle and spikes.
White hot metal club.
Metal club that bends and changes shape as you swing it, like a whip.
Microwave amp.
Rifle designed to be shot underwater.
That silly bola gun that got left behind on mission 3.
Electric head!
Post by: piecewise on January 25, 2017, 08:59:12 pm
So, structural 1 and 2 are essentially useless, eh? Everything described needed at least Structural 3.No, they're not useful for building a gun. Do you build a gun out of paper? Or plastic? If someone wanted to make a book they would need
I'm sorry, but this strikes me as just a horrible idea all round. Tinker is pain... so you're making Tinker again? Even if the system weren't clearly designed for it, there's gonna be a lot of "Oh, can I use X instead of Y here, to get Z bonus/penalty?". Unless there's no difference between using elastic 3 (rubber) for your magazine and using elastic 3 (skin).
Sure, I get that you need structural 3 for a gun, but what about a finger? Or a magazine? It would be impossible to make an artificial bone finger? Or a hardwood magazine? Out of all the items you've described so far, you've said Structural 3 is required, except for an artificial eye which needed only two. That's somewhat fair, since stone is fairly decent structurally and should be practically infinite for us, but still. I feel like a system where you have to balance costs for everything players want to build will cause problems.
I digress , though. How about some recipes?
Soldier's Suit
Havel's set, or any other sort ofhilariously impracticalstone armor
A club
A really big club
A robot body with a Body of 100
A robot body with a Body of 21
The finger I envisioned was a robotic mechanical one with a blade. An artificial bone finger is totally possible too. That would be structural 2. A hard wood magazine is possible too. I see what you're saying with the balancing thing, but I think the important part is not restraining access to low quality or even medium quality stuff. Its the high power stuff that would unbalance things and the parts for those are rare.
Soldier's suit would probably be, say it with me now, structural 3. But it would have to be structural 3-Protective 2 on the same material, and you'd need 4 of them. Which could be done by turning steel to plates. Then some flexible 2 for cloth, elastic 1 for padding, and sticky 2 for putting them all together.
Havel's set would need structural 3-Heavy 3-protective 4 on a single material and several of that material. Lighter and more protective than normal stone. Then similar additional requirements for padding, maybe with some 2 flex and 2 elastic instead of 1 each.
Club? Well, you could get away with just Structural 2. Piece of wood. Or rolled up leather. Or bone. Of course if you found something that also had Heavy ratings above 5, that would increase the damage.
Same, but you'd need more of them. And probably some sticky 3-4 depending on the size and what its made of.
Both robot bodies will have the same setups, the body will be based on the roll of the builder. And are we talking full robot or robocop style? Robocop would be easier but more vulnerable than full robo.
A very, very heavy and durable tower shield.Does it have to be heavy? Or are you just saying "Put a 4 inch thick steel plate on a handle"?
An organic replacement limb, covered in muscle and spikes.
White hot metal club.
Metal club that bends and changes shape as you swing it, like a whip.
Microwave amp.
Rifle designed to be shot underwater.
That silly bola gun that got left behind on mission 3.
Electric head!
Organic eh? Organic 4(2), Sharp 2-Structural 3. Ie, cut off an arm and stick spikes on that fucker.
Depends on how you wanna do it. You want something that uses fuel to warm up to white hot or something that is always white hot?
Structural 4, Weird 4, Elastic 3, Chemical 5
hmmmm....Thats gonna be a living engine so. Deep 4 at least, weird 5, Mechanical 7 for direct brain interface.
I'm not sure how that differs from a normal one?
Heavy 10~
Fuck, thats a lot. I'd have to get back to you on the full recipe but just know that you're looking at like 10 mechanical 5s, Transmitting 3 and 4, sensing 3s, structural-protectives, and a variety of other things depending on armament plus some weird and deeps of low levels.
Post by: Ozarck on January 25, 2017, 10:16:03 pm
Post by: Devastator on January 26, 2017, 12:02:46 am
Recipe RequestThe way you're describing it, that would actually just be letting you use Control to dodge shots rather than Blast.
How much for retractable roller-skates that give a boost to cover (from moving around), and a penalty to blast (from moving around)?
Hmm, not useful for me, then. I'll think about things.
Post by: piecewise on January 26, 2017, 12:09:05 am
since bullets basically shatter when fired into water, a rifle designed to be fired underwater wold basically need a modified ammo, like tiny darts or something.Harpoon gun?
Post by: piecewise on January 26, 2017, 12:10:26 am
Post by: AoshimaMichio on January 26, 2017, 01:39:56 am
Post by: piecewise on January 26, 2017, 02:37:52 am
It's almost like piecewise cannot stop making tinkering possible in his games.
People like crafting. I can't help it.
Also the problem with tinker was mainly Armor penetration and the like. Shit people asked me I had no idea about because there was no mechanic.
Here there's like 15-20 pieces you can use, with 10 qualities each. And stuff like armor is a hard number. Doing this stuff doesn't really bother me. Only problem I foresee is potentially things being OP in the long run but WORRYABOUTTHATLATER
Post by: Radio Controlled on January 26, 2017, 01:59:44 pm
Quote
QuoteWhat would one need to build the following:See radio for depth drive,
1) depth drive
I think you got cut off here? Or were you referring to Pancaek maybe?
About the mantra: since it isn't an item, could perhaps that still be acquired using knowledge?
Post by: piecewise on January 26, 2017, 02:36:59 pm
The mantra is found, not made. As I've said, there are things living in the Deep and you're gonna have to talk to them.QuoteQuoteWhat would one need to build the following:See radio for depth drive,
1) depth drive
I think you got cut off here? Or were you referring to Pancaek maybe?
About the mantra: since it isn't an item, could perhaps that still be acquired using knowledge?
Post by: Radio Controlled on January 26, 2017, 02:41:38 pm
Well yes, but the rules state: "Likewise, a mystic cannot construct his divine tools nor bargain with the otherworldly using petty human knowhow." which implies that getting a mantra requires, or at least heavily benefits from, gathering knowledge for it.The mantra is found, not made. As I've said, there are things living in the Deep and you're gonna have to talk to them.QuoteQuoteWhat would one need to build the following:See radio for depth drive,
1) depth drive
I think you got cut off here? Or were you referring to Pancaek maybe?
About the mantra: since it isn't an item, could perhaps that still be acquired using knowledge?
Post by: piecewise on January 26, 2017, 02:54:55 pm
Well yes, but the rules state: "Likewise, a mystic cannot construct his divine tools nor bargain with the otherworldly using petty human knowhow." which implies that getting a mantra requires, or at least heavily benefits from, gathering knowledge for it.The mantra is found, not made. As I've said, there are things living in the Deep and you're gonna have to talk to them.QuoteQuoteWhat would one need to build the following:See radio for depth drive,
1) depth drive
I think you got cut off here? Or were you referring to Pancaek maybe?
About the mantra: since it isn't an item, could perhaps that still be acquired using knowledge?
That was old crafting. Mostly now you just need objects from the Deep.
Post by: Devastator on January 27, 2017, 10:14:58 am
Post by: piecewise on January 27, 2017, 12:21:17 pm
((So I couldn't see anything holding the crystal up?))You saw the spider webs that you saw earlier.
Post by: Devastator on January 27, 2017, 01:13:03 pm
Oh, thought it was a line. Can't really shoot a web.((So I couldn't see anything holding the crystal up?))You saw the spider webs that you saw earlier.
Post by: The Lupanian on January 27, 2017, 05:55:00 pm
Post by: Hapah on January 27, 2017, 06:37:14 pm
Post by: syvarris on January 27, 2017, 07:37:38 pm
Why is sticky stuff always needed? Is it impossible to just weld or rivet metal together? It just seems odd that full plate mail needs glue.
Quote from: Piecewise
Both robot bodies will have the same setups, the body will be based on the roll of the builder. And are we talking full robot or robocop style? Robocop would be easier but more vulnerable than full robo.
Full robot. What sort of materials would it need, and how would it be different from a human?
@Underwater Rifle
Russia gets the best toys... https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/APS_underwater_rifle
Oz was correct, that's an amphibious assault rifle which fires five inch long metal darts, at ~350 rounds per minute underwater. The modern version uses much shorter two inch long bolts that are mostly inside the brass, which is much more boring, and probably less effective.
Quote from: Piecewise
People like crafting.I can't help it.
FTFY. Otherwise, it implies you're blaming the existence of tinker fans caused you to add Tinker, which is patently false.
Post by: Egan_BW on January 27, 2017, 07:57:42 pm
Post by: piecewise on January 27, 2017, 08:49:01 pm
@PiecewiseSticky, as defined, is just something that can be used to attach two things. Glue counts, but so do nails, welds and rivets. As well as stitches to hold padding together inside said platemail.
Why is sticky stuff always needed? Is it impossible to just weld or rivet metal together? It just seems odd that full plate mail needs glue.Quote from: PiecewiseBoth robot bodies will have the same setups, the body will be based on the roll of the builder. And are we talking full robot or robocop style? Robocop would be easier but more vulnerable than full robo.
Full robot. What sort of materials would it need, and how would it be different from a human?
@Underwater Rifle
Russia gets the best toys... https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/APS_underwater_rifle
Oz was correct, that's an amphibious assault rifle which fires five inch long metal darts, at ~350 rounds per minute underwater. The modern version uses much shorter two inch long bolts that are mostly inside the brass, which is much more boring, and probably less effective.Quote from: PiecewisePeople like crafting.I can't help it.
FTFY. Otherwise, it implies you're blaming the existence of tinker fans caused you to add Tinker, which is patently false.
Full robot would several machinery 5 as well as several structural of at least 3. You'll also need sensing 2, 3 and 5 for your senses and transmitting 2. Some sticky 3 as well to bolt it all together.
Could a person that isn't super active still make any sort of meaningful contribution? I've been lurking a while but haven't played anything lately.Sure, probably not as meaningful as someone always helping, but currently the bore does need someone to load, aim and fire cannons.
Post by: NJW2000 on January 28, 2017, 04:49:35 am
Post by: Devastator on January 28, 2017, 05:07:06 am
Post by: NJW2000 on January 28, 2017, 05:09:51 am
Post by: Radio Controlled on January 28, 2017, 05:22:32 am
Post by: NJW2000 on January 28, 2017, 05:24:08 am
Post by: Ozarck on January 28, 2017, 10:41:54 am
I'd like to gather knowledge to create a technique that lets me replace a dodge roll with a move (or cover?) one. What kind of costs or limitations would you think are fair for something like that?
This sounds like a straight up gaming of the system, rendering one skill redundant by replacing it with another. It seems like it would need to be very heavily limited for balance. Frankly, if it were me, i'd simply disallow this as an option.
Post by: Radio Controlled on January 28, 2017, 10:53:39 am
Hell, pancaek has a sorta similar thing going with his technique for blast in cqc, no?
Post by: Devastator on January 28, 2017, 04:19:46 pm
How much for a weapon gyro system that allows +20 to hit for a particular blast weapon instead of +10 for aiming?
Post by: The Lupanian on January 28, 2017, 04:50:56 pm
Armored Cloak
A flashlight
Second Inquiry I'd also like to know, does the bore have glass or clay bottles on it at all? Or even jars or something similar?
Post by: NJW2000 on January 28, 2017, 05:12:10 pm
Something that lets me see through rock.
Eyes that can zoom a lot.
Something that gives me vision a little like level 2 of the deep: organisms, structures, entities.
All three combined.
Post by: Execute/Dumbo.exe on January 28, 2017, 11:04:52 pm
Hey, are there any character types you guys might need more of? Sneaky guy? Appraiser? Stabby man?
Post by: Ozarck on January 28, 2017, 11:14:32 pm
Dangit, now I'm interested, I shouldn't be, but I am.driver
Hey, are there any character types you guys might need more of? Sneaky guy? Appraiser? Stabby man?
Post by: piecewise on January 29, 2017, 05:57:58 pm
Recipe RequestDo you mean something that adds an additional +10 onto the bonus aiming gives? Because I would think that would be more like a tripod or something.
How much for a weapon gyro system that allows +20 to hit for a particular blast weapon instead of +10 for aiming?
Recipe Request3 flexible 2's, 2 structural 3-protective 1, and sticky 2.
Armored Cloak
A flashlight
Second Inquiry I'd also like to know, does the bore have glass or clay bottles on it at all? Or even jars or something similar?
Flashlight? Energy 1, shiny 2, structural 2 or higher.
It might, if you check the storage. Though they're probably gonna be storage containers for food, so they may not be super robust. Like a pickle jar or something.
Recipe RequestsSee through rock eh? Mechanical 5, Deep 2-Sensing 2, structural 3.
Something that lets me see through rock.
Eyes that can zoom a lot.
Something that gives me vision a little like level 2 of the deep: organisms, structures, entities.
All three combined.
Eyes specifically? Didn't I already cover zooming eyes? How zoomy we talking? x10 or electron scanning microscope?
same but mechanical 6, deep 2, sensing 6.
True, we only seem to have 2. Or at least I've only ever seen two doing anything.Dangit, now I'm interested, I shouldn't be, but I am.driver
Hey, are there any character types you guys might need more of? Sneaky guy? Appraiser? Stabby man?
Post by: NJW2000 on January 29, 2017, 06:17:20 pm
Quote
Something that lets me see through rock.
Eyes that can zoom a lot.
Something that gives me vision a little like level 2 of the deep: organisms, structures, entities.
Quote
See through rock eh? Mechanical 5, Deep 2-Sensing 2, structural 3.
same but mechanical 6, deep 2, sensing 6.
Could I just get the highest mechanical and sensing I can, then ask you what I can build from them?
Post by: piecewise on January 29, 2017, 07:15:52 pm
Recipe QuestionWhen you say "The highest I can get" you mean the highest you can find laying around or level 10 stuff?QuoteSomething that lets me see through rock.
Eyes that can zoom a lot.
Something that gives me vision a little like level 2 of the deep: organisms, structures, entities.QuoteSee through rock eh? Mechanical 5, Deep 2-Sensing 2, structural 3.
same but mechanical 6, deep 2, sensing 6.
Could I just get the highest mechanical and sensing I can, then ask you what I can build from them?
Post by: adwarf on January 29, 2017, 08:27:26 pm
Spoiler: Rast E Bookit (click to show/hide)
Have a sheet :v
Post by: syvarris on January 29, 2017, 08:54:19 pm
Spoiler: Apologies, but you made several significant mistakes (click to show/hide)
Post by: Devastator on January 29, 2017, 09:00:29 pm
Recipe RequestDo you mean something that adds an additional +10 onto the bonus aiming gives? Because I would think that would be more like a tripod or something.
How much for a weapon gyro system that allows +20 to hit for a particular blast weapon instead of +10 for aiming?
Sure, something like that.
Post by: adwarf on January 29, 2017, 09:06:34 pm
Post by: Ozarck on January 29, 2017, 09:26:37 pm
sy, you probably can't "circle around" Tony, since the crawler is small enough that sitting with your back against one wall, your knees touch the knees of the guy sitting with his back against the other wall.
That is, there is probably about three feet of space, wall to wall, in the crawler.
Post by: Radio Controlled on January 30, 2017, 12:32:10 am
Unless I try to reanimate a corpse myself that has some control skill to pilot the crawler out of there, it seems you guys might be stuck there. Could always float everyone back up, but we should probably try not to loose our crawler already. Maybe I could float a new pilot down though. Try not to break this one!
Post by: Devastator on January 30, 2017, 01:04:25 am
Although we may have to throw the infected guy out first.
Post by: Execute/Dumbo.exe on January 30, 2017, 01:07:37 am
Third driver? A'ight.Dangit, now I'm interested, I shouldn't be, but I am.driver
Hey, are there any character types you guys might need more of? Sneaky guy? Appraiser? Stabby man?
Spoiler: Character Sheet (click to show/hide)
Post by: Radio Controlled on January 30, 2017, 01:20:27 am
Third driver? A'ight.Dangit, now I'm interested, I shouldn't be, but I am.driver
Hey, are there any character types you guys might need more of? Sneaky guy? Appraiser? Stabby man?It's not that great, but I just wanna put a draft out there, see how it goes.Spoiler: Character Sheet (click to show/hide)
If you wanna be a hero you could go pilot these shmucks out of their predicament.
Post by: Execute/Dumbo.exe on January 30, 2017, 01:55:50 am
No.Third driver? A'ight.Dangit, now I'm interested, I shouldn't be, but I am.driver
Hey, are there any character types you guys might need more of? Sneaky guy? Appraiser? Stabby man?It's not that great, but I just wanna put a draft out there, see how it goes.Spoiler: Character Sheet (click to show/hide)
If you wanna be a hero you could go pilot these shmucks out of their predicament.
I wanna see them squirm.
Also because, uh, I don't wanna roll in there and lock down my stat spread, and I don't really know how to say I go down there, is it just assumed that I parachute down the tunnel?
Post by: Radio Controlled on January 30, 2017, 01:57:48 am
Post by: piecewise on January 30, 2017, 12:36:26 pm
In the case of that it would actually be a very simple build; something like structural 3, sticky 2. Thats it. But it would have a lot of conditionals as to how and when it worked. There are two possible ways to work this: Tripod or bipod.Recipe RequestDo you mean something that adds an additional +10 onto the bonus aiming gives? Because I would think that would be more like a tripod or something.
How much for a weapon gyro system that allows +20 to hit for a particular blast weapon instead of +10 for aiming?
Sure, something like that.
Bipod would require you to either go prone or have something to rest the bipod on, and as such might restrict firing angles (can't really shoot up too well when prone). Tripod would literally be like a tripod for a camera that you set up and affix the gun to. The tripod would take 1 more turn to set up and aim, and you wouldn't be able to easily move and take that weapon with you (Probably take a turn to be ready to move or you'd have to abandon the gun and run) but it would have the benefit of providing that +20 bonus continuously on all shots after the first until you pack it up and move.
So Bipod is a "quick" way to boost the normal bonus, while a tripod is slower but better for drawn out engagements.
Gonna assume the problems sy talked about are fixed? If so, you'll appear on the bore in the crew quarters.Spoiler: Rast E Bookit (click to show/hide)
Have a sheet :v
I could float you down with my spoooooky ghost powers.Yeah, summon stronger demons for me baby.
Post by: NJW2000 on January 30, 2017, 01:03:48 pm
The former. Though greater than or equal to 5 and ten respectively.Recipe QuestionWhen you say "The highest I can get" you mean the highest you can find laying around or level 10 stuff?QuoteSomething that lets me see through rock.
Eyes that can zoom a lot.
Something that gives me vision a little like level 2 of the deep: organisms, structures, entities.QuoteSee through rock eh? Mechanical 5, Deep 2-Sensing 2, structural 3.
same but mechanical 6, deep 2, sensing 6.
Could I just get the highest mechanical and sensing I can, then ask you what I can build from them?
So... next up, I think we need to cut down one of the threads and catch the ball intact, perhaps in a net of some kind.
Post by: Radio Controlled on January 30, 2017, 01:12:06 pm
Quote
Yeah, summon stronger demons for me baby.Anything for you princess.
Post by: NJW2000 on January 30, 2017, 02:33:52 pm
Post by: Radio Controlled on January 30, 2017, 02:39:51 pm
Quote
If it's just to run away, how's this instead: A skill that simply removes the fact that you have to pass a dodge move before running away. Call it Autoflee. The cost will be that you can't act the following turn, even if they catch up with you.Sounds interesting. How much knowledge? And not acting, does that just include an action post, or any and all rolls (eg. Defensive ones)? What would prevent an enemy to just walk up to me again the next turn while I'm standing there?
Also, how much knowledge for the ability to shift around attribute points upon reanimating something? With potentially a sort of extra loss to compensate (eg for every 10 points moved around 5 more points have to be deleted, meaning less overall points).
Post by: Whisperling on January 30, 2017, 02:52:40 pm
From a metagamey perspective, might be good to have someone manipulating the deep alongside RC right now. Perhaps the Bore should be radio'd? Do we have any other shamans?
Kinda lapsed into watching, but I could make a sheet for my mole monk in the new system and help out.
Post by: piecewise on January 30, 2017, 02:54:50 pm
Yeah, no actions or rolls. All peeing yourself. lets say 250 knowledge.QuoteIf it's just to run away, how's this instead: A skill that simply removes the fact that you have to pass a dodge move before running away. Call it Autoflee. The cost will be that you can't act the following turn, even if they catch up with you.Sounds interesting. How much knowledge? And not acting, does that just include an action post, or any and all rolls (eg. Defensive ones)? What would prevent an enemy to just walk up to me again the next turn while I'm standing there?
Also, how much knowledge for the ability to shift around attribute points upon reanimating something? With potentially a sort of extra loss to compensate (eg for every 10 points moved around 5 more points have to be deleted, meaning less overall points).
So like an imperfect death respec kinda thing?
Post by: Radio Controlled on January 30, 2017, 02:56:29 pm
Yeah, no actions or rolls. All peeing yourself. lets say 250 knowledge.QuoteIf it's just to run away, how's this instead: A skill that simply removes the fact that you have to pass a dodge move before running away. Call it Autoflee. The cost will be that you can't act the following turn, even if they catch up with you.Sounds interesting. How much knowledge? And not acting, does that just include an action post, or any and all rolls (eg. Defensive ones)? What would prevent an enemy to just walk up to me again the next turn while I'm standing there?
Also, how much knowledge for the ability to shift around attribute points upon reanimating something? With potentially a sort of extra loss to compensate (eg for every 10 points moved around 5 more points have to be deleted, meaning less overall points).
So like an imperfect death respec kinda thing?
Sort of? But mostly for reanimating things, not reincarnation or ressurection (though if that can be added for no extra cost, that's just fiiine by me). So I don't have a bunch of minions with uselessly low skill in everything.
Post by: piecewise on January 30, 2017, 03:44:29 pm
Post by: Radio Controlled on January 30, 2017, 03:52:51 pm
The skills of a resurrected body are entirely decided by the thing you put in it. Afraid I can't change that.
Wait, really? Not the level from which the creature came? Cause this is what the rules currently say:
Quote
Reanimation is the act of animating a once living body, but without returning its original mind to it. Instead the animated body is filled with creatures from the Deep Sea; their competence and capacities are highly dependant on what creatures are used. . In order to do this, a player needs to enter the Deep Sea and subdue a creature via beating it in combat. Once this is done, it is placed into the body via a successful transcend roll. The depth of the creature determines the stats of the newly raised body. Bodies begin with a base 25 in all abilities for first level creatures and gain +5 to all abilities for each level from 2 to 5 and +10 for each level from 6-10. So Depth 3 would be 35, and depth 7 would be 65 in all abilities. The max at 10 is 95 in all abilities. Anything below 40 will be mindless servants that do as they are told, but the higher they get, the more intelligent and difficult to command they may become.
So did the rules change in this regard, or did I misunderstand something? Or are you just saying no to the idea of the ability itself? Lore-wise the idea is that I would mold and bend the mind to fit the purpose I need, at the cost that this damages the mind itself (and thus lowers stat total).
Post by: piecewise on January 30, 2017, 05:09:19 pm
The skills of a resurrected body are entirely decided by the thing you put in it. Afraid I can't change that.
Wait, really? Not the level from which the creature came? Cause this is what the rules currently say:QuoteReanimation is the act of animating a once living body, but without returning its original mind to it. Instead the animated body is filled with creatures from the Deep Sea; their competence and capacities are highly dependant on what creatures are used. . In order to do this, a player needs to enter the Deep Sea and subdue a creature via beating it in combat. Once this is done, it is placed into the body via a successful transcend roll. The depth of the creature determines the stats of the newly raised body. Bodies begin with a base 25 in all abilities for first level creatures and gain +5 to all abilities for each level from 2 to 5 and +10 for each level from 6-10. So Depth 3 would be 35, and depth 7 would be 65 in all abilities. The max at 10 is 95 in all abilities. Anything below 40 will be mindless servants that do as they are told, but the higher they get, the more intelligent and difficult to command they may become.
So did the rules change in this regard, or did I misunderstand something? Or are you just saying no to the idea of the ability itself? Lore-wise the idea is that I would mold and bend the mind to fit the purpose I need, at the cost that this damages the mind itself (and thus lowers stat total).
No, thats just what I mean. Their stats vary depending on what they are and what they are is defined by level, if that makes sense.
I may have to mess with those numbers though. make it so its more like they start at 50 in all and get +5 per level.
Post by: syvarris on January 30, 2017, 06:44:22 pm
...Although, I could see increasing the later depths stat bonuses more, so that level 10 stuff is beyond 100 in everything. If L10 is editting how reality itself works, you'd expect a being that lives there to just autosucceed under normal circumstances, at the very least on Transcend rolls. At the same time I don't think the lower levels should grant more than +5, for the above stated reasons.
Post by: piecewise on January 30, 2017, 09:11:15 pm
No, no, the current system makes a lot of sense. If you want something that isn't just cannon fodder, you have to actually put a lot of effort in. Being able to grab things with 50 in everything (I.E. triple the total stat points of a player) from L1 is ludicrously powerful. Especially if the difficulty to control them increases to match, since that would mean a player could have lots of powerful but mindless servants for little more than the cost of the bodies.Fair enough. As is beings on level 10 have 150 in all stats so their earthly bodies should be fairly similar.
...Although, I could see increasing the later depths stat bonuses more, so that level 10 stuff is beyond 100 in everything. If L10 is editting how reality itself works, you'd expect a being that lives there to just autosucceed under normal circumstances, at the very least on Transcend rolls. At the same time I don't think the lower levels should grant more than +5, for the above stated reasons.
Post by: piecewise on January 31, 2017, 08:57:21 am
Still, if you'd like we can do it.
Post by: Radio Controlled on January 31, 2017, 03:38:38 pm
No, no, the current system makes a lot of sense. If you want something that isn't just cannon fodder, you have to actually put a lot of effort in. Being able to grab things with 50 in everything (I.E. triple the total stat points of a player) from L1 is ludicrously powerful. Especially if the difficulty to control them increases to match, since that would mean a player could have lots of powerful but mindless servants for little more than the cost of the bodies.Fair enough. As is beings on level 10 have 150 in all stats so their earthly bodies should be fairly similar.
...Although, I could see increasing the later depths stat bonuses more, so that level 10 stuff is beyond 100 in everything. If L10 is editting how reality itself works, you'd expect a being that lives there to just autosucceed under normal circumstances, at the very least on Transcend rolls. At the same time I don't think the lower levels should grant more than +5, for the above stated reasons.
I rather agree that the starting skill numbers don't need to be boosted. Hell, for all I care the starting statpoints could be nerfed if that opened up the possibility of shifting a few points around in some form.
Sy, you don't do more damage because you have a starting weapon. I mean, I can throw in a thing about criting if you roll significantly more than the other guy, but I feel you're gonna regret that when you roll 79 and some mook rolls 2 and one shots you.
Still, if you'd like we can do it.
You could maybe adapt the overkill rule?
Post by: syvarris on January 31, 2017, 03:39:26 pm
Post by: piecewise on January 31, 2017, 05:11:46 pm
Just ignore me, I'm always going to find things to complain about. System works as-is, shouldn't change it just because the Munchkin is unhappy about something.Lets make it so that 30 more than an opponent is double damage and 50 more is triple damage.
I'll think about how to handle it. If I wanted to go REALLY weird, I'd just say "Sparks give +1 to dex, Cinders give +1 to fire, Glow worms give +4 to X , etc"No, no, the current system makes a lot of sense. If you want something that isn't just cannon fodder, you have to actually put a lot of effort in. Being able to grab things with 50 in everything (I.E. triple the total stat points of a player) from L1 is ludicrously powerful. Especially if the difficulty to control them increases to match, since that would mean a player could have lots of powerful but mindless servants for little more than the cost of the bodies.Fair enough. As is beings on level 10 have 150 in all stats so their earthly bodies should be fairly similar.
...Although, I could see increasing the later depths stat bonuses more, so that level 10 stuff is beyond 100 in everything. If L10 is editting how reality itself works, you'd expect a being that lives there to just autosucceed under normal circumstances, at the very least on Transcend rolls. At the same time I don't think the lower levels should grant more than +5, for the above stated reasons.
I rather agree that the starting skill numbers don't need to be boosted. Hell, for all I care the starting statpoints could be nerfed if that opened up the possibility of shifting a few points around in some form.Sy, you don't do more damage because you have a starting weapon. I mean, I can throw in a thing about criting if you roll significantly more than the other guy, but I feel you're gonna regret that when you roll 79 and some mook rolls 2 and one shots you.
Still, if you'd like we can do it.
You could maybe adapt the overkill rule?
Post by: Rautherdir on January 31, 2017, 08:54:09 pm
Post by: Devastator on February 01, 2017, 12:31:04 am
Post by: The Lupanian on February 01, 2017, 02:36:14 am
Post by: piecewise on February 01, 2017, 09:16:30 am
Just for future reference, and because it may soon become relevant. What is your policy on making new characters when old ones die? Are we not allowed, do we have to wait? I wasn't around ER long enough to get to find out, so I have nothing to go on.You can just make one right away.
Post by: The Lupanian on February 01, 2017, 10:26:45 pm
This is not as important to me, but does his brain count as sentient/intelligent?
Also, let me know if you'd prefer these inquiries in the OOC thread, or if we should try to figure this stuff out in-game
Post by: piecewise on February 01, 2017, 10:55:24 pm
Could we get anything unusual from Tony's body? Specifically, could we use his eyes or nervous tissue for sensing, or use his nervous tissue for transmitting or something?Sounds like a job for someone with good find.
This is not as important to me, but does his brain count as sentient/intelligent?
Also, let me know if you'd prefer these inquiries in the OOC thread, or if we should try to figure this stuff out in-game
Post by: Gentlefish on February 02, 2017, 03:48:34 am
Could we get anything unusual from Tony's body? Specifically, could we use his eyes or nervous tissue for sensing, or use his nervous tissue for transmitting or something?Sounds like a job for someone with good find.
This is not as important to me, but does his brain count as sentient/intelligent?
Also, let me know if you'd prefer these inquiries in the OOC thread, or if we should try to figure this stuff out in-game
Sounds like my job, then. Bring him to me!
Post by: Radio Controlled on February 02, 2017, 08:09:17 am
Post by: NJW2000 on February 02, 2017, 11:46:02 am
Post by: The Lupanian on February 02, 2017, 05:15:09 pm
Could always just save the corpse for me to try and reanimate it (should I be able to beat/escape the monster I'm fighting of course).But if we just reanimate it, we can't make cool gadgets out of random bits of his body.
Post by: Devastator on February 03, 2017, 01:04:06 am
Post by: Radio Controlled on February 03, 2017, 11:14:53 am
If you really want to, you could always just take of 1 or more limbs to dissect but leave the rest up for reanimation, then later I'd replace those limbs with something else.Could always just save the corpse for me to try and reanimate it (should I be able to beat/escape the monster I'm fighting of course).But if we just reanimate it, we can't make cool gadgets out of random bits of his body.
Post by: The Lupanian on February 03, 2017, 01:48:29 pm
But the good stuff's in the headIf you really want to, you could always just take of 1 or more limbs to dissect but leave the rest up for reanimation, then later I'd replace those limbs with something else.Could always just save the corpse for me to try and reanimate it (should I be able to beat/escape the monster I'm fighting of course).But if we just reanimate it, we can't make cool gadgets out of random bits of his body.
Post by: Radio Controlled on February 03, 2017, 02:59:43 pm
But the good stuff's in the headIf you really want to, you could always just take of 1 or more limbs to dissect but leave the rest up for reanimation, then later I'd replace those limbs with something else.Could always just save the corpse for me to try and reanimate it (should I be able to beat/escape the monster I'm fighting of course).But if we just reanimate it, we can't make cool gadgets out of random bits of his body.
What kind of building material would you hope to get out of a brain that you couldn't find an easier alternative for exactly?
Another good use we could consider is just repairing the body and keeping it in storage for when somebody dies but his body isn't recoverable, that way we have a quick replacement ready (otherwise a new body would have to be build on the spot).
Post by: Gentlefish on February 03, 2017, 03:03:28 pm
Post by: Radio Controlled on February 03, 2017, 03:10:37 pm
Thought and sense, mostly.Latter seems a little iffy (brain itself can't really sense a lot) but 'Intelligent' is probably the most interesting tag it'd have.
Post by: The Lupanian on February 03, 2017, 03:54:47 pm
The eyes might be sense, and the nerves could be transmitting. I say seeing what we can get is worth a shotThought and sense, mostly.Latter seems a little iffy (brain itself can't really sense a lot) but 'Intelligent' is probably the most interesting tag it'd have.
Post by: Radio Controlled on February 03, 2017, 04:14:53 pm
Post by: Radio Controlled on February 03, 2017, 05:03:59 pm
So, any thoughts on this? PW indicated that we'll still have to post our sheets, but it can still be handy for things like tag recipes or what materials get what tags (so we can avoid asking the same thing a million times or having to use the forum's search function, which is less than stellar IMO). Also things like chronicling our misadventures or documenting game mechanics that aren't in the rules (such as the overkill rule).
FAKEDIT: When I mentioned it in irc, some comments already came up, such as Egan hating on wikia because it's laggy for him, and some people who think a google docs might be better.
I personally like wikia cause it works good for me and I know how to work with it, but there are several other free wiki options out there: http://www.techlearning.com/default.aspx?tabid=100&entryid=583
Wikidot was mentioned as a good service that works nicely, but I have no experience with it.
I don't think 1/multiple google docs files would be very convenient, and since Egan didn't really come up with an alternative, I'm personally still in favor of wikia. But, if there's any other free online wiki service that doesn't require a personal server that people have had good encounters with, feel free to let us know.
So, thoughts/opinions?
Oh,and we're still discussing it in the chat as we speak so feel free to hop on over!
http://widget01.mibbit.com/?settings=d4a2e2317b84e8897df0b736464a8ee4&server=mibbit.darkmyst.org&channel=%23einsteinianroulette
Post by: Gentlefish on February 03, 2017, 10:19:47 pm
Post by: Devastator on February 04, 2017, 03:15:08 pm
((I can contribute to the wiki, although I'd like out of game bribes in return.))
Post by: Radio Controlled on February 04, 2017, 03:29:34 pm
How do the healing mechanics work again?Roll recover, if you succeed you get as much mind and body back as you succeed by. Otherwise you need to use medkits, which need to be build. Dunno if you can regain body with a straight build roll.
((I can contribute to the wiki, although I'd like out of game bribes in return.))
Post by: Ozarck on February 04, 2017, 04:38:09 pm
Post by: Radio Controlled on February 04, 2017, 05:11:53 pm
So, here it is, in all its barebones glory: http://dig.wikia.com/wiki/Dig_Wiki
It's very barren right now, but that's where you come in! Wikia makes editing pretty easy, and you don't necessarily even need an account. Logging in however allows wikia to remember your edits and hand out badges! Glorious, glorious badges!
Remember, for the time being we'll still have to keep posting sheets together with actions, but even then you could use your character pages for things like your complete inventory, a larger background story or whatever else you want really.
So, don't dread it, but start to edit! I regret nothing.
Post by: Ozarck on February 04, 2017, 05:15:30 pm
((kidding. the idea of a wiki has been downvoted at least three times so far in that game.))
Post by: Radio Controlled on February 04, 2017, 05:17:23 pm
Good work, I assume. Now get over to omega legion and stat a wiki there :P
((kidding. the idea of a wiki has been downvoted at least three times so far in that game.))
Did people give a specific reason they didn't want one? Like, it can only help right?
Post by: Ozarck on February 04, 2017, 05:46:28 pm
Edit: I put in a list of characters. I believe it is basically accurate to date. I haven't checked the ooc thread for stragglers though.
Post by: syvarris on February 04, 2017, 06:02:27 pm
Post by: Ozarck on February 04, 2017, 06:06:12 pm
OL is a fair bit more freeform than ER and Dig, plus it doesn't have any of the more complex systems like Tinker or even an armory. Lists don't really matter for the game, so the only bookkeeping that needs to be done is character sheets, and those are handled by players in a specific thread. The only real use for a wiki would be story fluff and more concise game history, which means a wiki would be quite sparse and underused.Well, a wiki could increase the ability of teh GM to track items, locations, and npcs, making it possible for the complexity of the system to evolve.
Plus, several of the magic systems (alchemy in particular, but also Runic and ritual magic) are pretty complicated, and have largely been abandoned as a result.
Post by: Gentlefish on February 04, 2017, 06:35:26 pm
OL is a fair bit more freeform than ER and Dig, plus it doesn't have any of the more complex systems like Tinker or even an armory. Lists don't really matter for the game, so the only bookkeeping that needs to be done is character sheets, and those are handled by players in a specific thread. The only real use for a wiki would be story fluff and more concise game history, which means a wiki would be quite sparse and underused.Well, a wiki could increase the ability of teh GM to track items, locations, and npcs, making it possible for the complexity of the system to evolve.
Plus, several of the magic systems (alchemy in particular, but also Runic and ritual magic) are pretty complicated, and have largely been abandoned as a result.
Yeah, its allows, basically, a reference document to be handled in a manner that allows specifics to arise out of clarification of ambiguities in the game itself, making it easier on the GM to be like, "no it doesn't work that way" or "Yeah, that's fine" based on (in this case) their previous rulings.
Post by: Devastator on February 04, 2017, 07:39:27 pm
Well, a wiki could increase the ability of teh GM to track items, locations, and npcs, making it possible for the complexity of the system to evolve.
Plus, several of the magic systems (alchemy in particular, but also Runic and ritual magic) are pretty complicated, and have largely been abandoned as a result.
It would also prevent any secret actions and diminish opposition, as the GM would become increasingly dependant on public-only sources.
Post by: Gentlefish on February 04, 2017, 08:19:53 pm
Well, a wiki could increase the ability of teh GM to track items, locations, and npcs, making it possible for the complexity of the system to evolve.
Plus, several of the magic systems (alchemy in particular, but also Runic and ritual magic) are pretty complicated, and have largely been abandoned as a result.
It would also prevent any secret actions and diminish opposition, as the GM would become increasingly dependant on public-only sources.
Bruh, that's like complaining that DnD has a Dungeon Master's Guide published. Like, "Oh no, the players understand the mechanics behind the scenes how can I do anything secretly?"
You get secret actions by secretly rolling or talking with the GM secretly.
Post by: piecewise on February 05, 2017, 09:48:57 am
(http://i.imgur.com/8plf22o.png) (http://dig.wikia.com/wiki/Dig_Wiki)
Even a nice image text thing to get to it. I have added it to the OP. And I think I'll pay knowledge to our wikignomes.
Post by: Radio Controlled on February 05, 2017, 11:26:22 am
Edit: I put in a list of characters. I believe it is basically accurate to date. I haven't checked the ooc thread for stragglers though.Eh, if the actually active people are on there that's a good start already, thanks.
Thanks go to syv for helping me get the logo right and improving the tab icon, as well as dev for help with the background. And people like midjag and adwarf (and others I'm shamefully forgetting) for general feedback on looks. I have an aesthetics sense of approximately negative ten, so any help on that front is appreciated.Spoiler (click to show/hide)
I'm gonna start porting over the rules and info from the docs files before moving on to info from the thread. We'll see how far I get today, but as always any help, no matter how small it may seem, is welcomed.
Post by: Ozarck on February 05, 2017, 12:03:44 pm
Post by: piecewise on February 06, 2017, 12:00:00 am
Post by: The Lupanian on February 06, 2017, 12:12:53 pm
Is the Lexicon game part of the Digverse, or are they just thematically similar?
Post by: piecewise on February 06, 2017, 12:51:18 pm
@PiecewiseI'm crowdsourcing the backstory of Dig~
Is the Lexicon game part of the Digverse, or are they just thematically similar?
Post by: Gentlefish on February 06, 2017, 01:25:29 pm
@PiecewiseI'm crowdsourcing the backstory of Dig~
Is the Lexicon game part of the Digverse, or are they just thematically similar?
Called it!
I'm 300% going to make it more Metro: Last Light even if it kills me or Fishman.
Post by: piecewise on February 06, 2017, 01:59:25 pm
Really I just stumbled across the lexicon system (Whenever I make systems I end up doing a hell of a lot of research on other systems, looking for good or similar ideas to incorporate) and liked the idea a lot. I chose this topic because, well, DIG's backstory was intentionally never going to be examined; Bad shit happened up there, we don't talk about it, and few people even know exactly what happened. But I figured it might be interesting to see what people think up.@PiecewiseI'm crowdsourcing the backstory of Dig~
Is the Lexicon game part of the Digverse, or are they just thematically similar?
Called it!
I'm 300% going to make it more Metro: Last Light even if it kills me or Fishman.
Post by: Radio Controlled on February 06, 2017, 06:21:10 pm
Post by: The Lupanian on February 07, 2017, 07:33:53 am
You were. A good pilot.Is it weird that in my head Nameless sounds like Richard Harrow from Boardwalk Empire?
Post by: Ozarck on February 07, 2017, 02:43:41 pm
Had to do a little you-tubing to find out. Saw him on a killing spree, then saw him talking to some kid from behind the bar. Seems legit. Only thing is, Harrow looks to have some pretty fly blast skills, whereas Nameless is entirely Fight.You were. A good pilot.Is it weird that in my head Nameless sounds like Richard Harrow from Boardwalk Empire?
Post by: The Lupanian on February 07, 2017, 04:12:55 pm
A distillery we could use to turn some organic things into booze (chemical) for use to make healing, or to trade with the denizens of the deep.
Post by: syvarris on February 07, 2017, 08:17:06 pm
((If only we had some sort of location where information like that could be archived... ( :P)(So.. how is permanent damage healed?)((I believe it is something like "at a rate of 10 an hour while in a safe place like the bore. Assuming, of course, that the bore isn't itself in combat during those times.))
Anyways, here's the healing info from the docs file:QuoteHealingEmphasis mine.
After combat ends, each surviving participant rolls Recover. If they succeed, they regain body and mind points equal to the success of the recovery, up to full. If they fail, however, any of that damage becomes permanent until they return to the Bore or other safe place, where they then heal at a rate of 10 per every 20 hours. This can compound. So, for example, if a player has 100 body points, loses 20, and then fails their recover roll, then their max drops to 80. If they lose another 20 and fail again, then their max drops to 60. That means that even if they succeed on other rolls, their body will be capped at 60. This lost health can be recovered with items. So a player with their body capped at 60 who used a first aid kit and got +10 body would go up to 70 max body and recover points up to there.
In other words, since each square on the map is 5 hours of drilling, 4 squares per 10 healing body and/or mind.))
I think this rule should be changed to something like 2/3 body/mind regenned per space drilled. Either slightly faster or slower, but requires less bean counting. I also think it might be best if the amount regenned is increased, just to make things move more quickly--as is, unless I'm severely underestimating the number of spaces drilled per interesting thing found, people will barely regen any body and mind between expeditions.
Then again, healing rolls could offset that. If body can be healed with build and a medkit, then builders might be able to make sure everyone has full body before each expedition. Mind is still a problem though, unless it can be healed with Transcend or something.
Post by: Ozarck on February 07, 2017, 09:33:50 pm
Note that in that last combat: R_C's character could do things the rest of us had no effect over, while his actions had immediate and deadly consequences for the rest of us.
I nthe same way, drivers hold our fate in their hands.
And builders, well, as long as they stay on teh ship, they can basically make whatever their little hearts desire at this point
so - fighters and gunners already are at a disadvantage, reliant on pilots, divers, and builders before they can do much of use.
Ah, wait, i see. You have no recover at all! On a fighter build, no less. So, upping the 'safety' recover rate gets you (and the divers) out there quicker, but makes my point distribution less valuable.
Post by: Devastator on February 08, 2017, 12:56:48 am
two-three points per space doesn't sound hugely broken. All said, I'd rather keep regeneration low overall. As long as we can keep things moving.
Post by: AoshimaMichio on February 08, 2017, 04:28:26 am
As long as we can keep things moving.
Or dying.
Post by: piecewise on February 08, 2017, 09:44:32 am
I was thinking Christopher Walken or ShatnerYou were. A good pilot.Is it weird that in my head Nameless sounds like Richard Harrow from Boardwalk Empire?
Per space recovery would help with the bookkeeping.Lets change it to each space is 5 points of mind and Body. Faster, but that lets us do more adventuring!
two-three points per space doesn't sound hugely broken. All said, I'd rather keep regeneration low overall. As long as we can keep things moving.
Post by: The Lupanian on February 08, 2017, 12:01:50 pm
Post by: piecewise on February 08, 2017, 01:24:19 pm
So, since the crystal ball has the "Living" tag, could RC make something out of it to replace Tony's head with for the purpose of reanimation?Yes, actually.
Changed the rules to reflect criticals and faster healing.
Post by: syvarris on February 08, 2017, 02:37:11 pm
Oz, think about this. If a player has 20/70 body, and 30 mind, they're in a lot of danger if they leave the bore. They probably don't want to leave and die, so they'd rather sit in the bore and gain some extra HP. Over the whole life of this game, about a month, we've traveled five spaces; that equates to 12.5 HP regenned per month spent on the bore. So, assuming we continue at the same rate, if our hypothetical player wants to return to full health he'd have to sit on the bore for four months, probably doing nothing of value. Next, consider that he very possibly could have lost his 50 body in one expedition, and now has to sit out four because of it.
Now, you're outright arguing that this guy should have to basically leave the game for four months, because it's fair. For him to regen any faster would be unfair to recover specialists like... uh, well, you. It sounds an awful lot like you're arguing that you and other people who chose high recover should be the only people who get to play regularly--either that, or you just didn't think about what I was saying, and immediately got angry that I was suggesting a change which makes recover a bit more balanced with other skills. And yes, this is balancing recover; the OP skills you listed are definitely not in balance with other skills, but none of them are necessary to play the game. If Recover is the only way to regain significant amounts of body/mind, then it is completely necessary, for everyone who is exposed to risk.
I digress. I do think it would be neat for Recover to alter how much you regen while resting, acting as a bonus to the standard amount. Perhaps an extra point per five points of Recover? That puts an 80 recovery person to 21 per five hours, which actually does make sense considering their exceptional combat regeneration abilities. It also makes low levels of recover a bit less useless, though not by much.
Post by: NJW2000 on February 08, 2017, 02:53:55 pm
Post by: syvarris on February 08, 2017, 03:00:16 pm
Post by: The Lupanian on February 08, 2017, 03:24:39 pm
Post by: Ozarck on February 08, 2017, 06:12:54 pm
In the entire month we've played, Nameless has .... rolled a rock around.
Our most permanent damage has been mind.
Most players have one stat significantly higher than the other, so everyone is risking death from an attack on the other stat.
If we're going by our current month long experience, I reiterate: Transcend is OP, and so far has been the only combat experienced, besides combat with one of our own (who was killed via attack from the Deep), and Control is far more essential to the party than recover is to an individual.
As for waiting for one to recover - what's to stop them from saying "let's wait in this location on ship for two days while people recover and builders build?" We don't actually need to be moving in order for that crap to happen. BUT! While some are recovering, building, and vandalizing the Bore others could still be out and about, gathering, conversing with the natives, diving the sea, whatever. Bottom line, I don't think a slower "safety" recover rate holds anyone back all that much.
But PW has made it faster, so that's what it is. Same as switching the building mechanisms around.
So RC should definetly carve a crystal skull to use for the head of a reanimated corpse.I don't see why our divers haven't been hunting down his soul already. Heck, I've got Tony's head, why not build him a robutt and stick the head on that?
Post by: Radio Controlled on February 08, 2017, 08:27:56 pm
So RC should definetly carve a crystal skull to use for the head of a reanimated corpse.I could definitely try that, but I get the feeling the inhabitants of the crystal wouldn't appreciate it very much and start screaming again. Then again, kingdom of the crystal skull anyone?
Tony died by mind damage, so his soul isn't recoverable.So RC should definetly carve a crystal skull to use for the head of a reanimated corpse.I don't see why our divers haven't been hunting down his soul already. Heck, I've got Tony's head, why not build him a robutt and stick the head on that?
Post by: syvarris on February 08, 2017, 08:30:16 pm
Spoiler: I miss this (click to show/hide)
Quote
I don't see why our divers haven't been hunting down his soul already. Heck, I've got Tony's head, why not build him a robutt and stick the head on that?
He died from mind damage, which is permadeath. You can only be revived from body damage deaths.
Edit: Dang it, Radio!
Post by: Radio Controlled on February 08, 2017, 08:36:36 pm
Edit: Dang it, Radio!And I've missed this ;)
Post by: The Lupanian on February 08, 2017, 08:39:46 pm
Since when have we decided not to do something just because it could be stupid/dangerous/literally the opposite of what we really should do?So RC should definetly carve a crystal skull to use for the head of a reanimated corpse.I could definitely try that, but I get the feeling the inhabitants of the crystal wouldn't appreciate it very much and start screaming again. Then again, kingdom of the crystal skull anyone?
Post by: Radio Controlled on February 08, 2017, 08:42:38 pm
29th of January, 1993. Didn't you get the memo?Since when have we decided not to do something just because it could be stupid/dangerous/literally the opposite of what we really should do?So RC should definetly carve a crystal skull to use for the head of a reanimated corpse.I could definitely try that, but I get the feeling the inhabitants of the crystal wouldn't appreciate it very much and start screaming again. Then again, kingdom of the crystal skull anyone?
Post by: The Lupanian on February 08, 2017, 08:48:04 pm
Post by: Radio Controlled on February 08, 2017, 08:56:04 pm
Actually, that gives me an idea, you could try killing the things that are living in it, but that could take away the intelligence factor, but it would theoretically be usable for a replacement body still. Also, if anybody's going to use the crystal for other stuff, we should cleanse the piece they use just to be safe.
That might be an option, though it might also anger the deep sea creatures and give them a chance to retaliate (though breaking up the crystal might as well, mind, but pw did say of that that it could be done -relatively- safely. Either way, you guys can can decide how you'll handle the crystal (could always also keep it whole to use it for trade later on).
About transcend being OP: simply using the skill itself may summon monsters that can do some real damage even at lower levels (at lvl. 3 one bad roll and it took away half my mind points!), so as pw said before there's already some balancing in that manner. This time the consequences were also bad for other people, but I don't think that's inherent to deep sea attack, the first monster fought purely on the psychic level.
Post by: The Lupanian on February 08, 2017, 09:28:01 pm
Actually, that gives me an idea, you could try killing the things that are living in it, but that could take away the intelligence factor, but it would theoretically be usable for a replacement body still. Also, if anybody's going to use the crystal for other stuff, we should cleanse the piece they use just to be safe.
That might be an option, though it might also anger the deep sea creatures and give them a chance to retaliate (though breaking up the crystal might as well, mind, but pw did say of that that it could be done -relatively- safely. Either way, you guys can can decide how you'll handle the crystal (could always also keep it whole to use it for trade later on).
About transcend being OP: simply using the skill itself may summon monsters that can do some real damage even at lower levels (at lvl. 3 one bad roll and it took away half my mind points!), so as pw said before there's already some balancing in that manner. This time the consequences were also bad for other people, but I don't think that's inherent to deep sea attack, the first monster fought purely on the psychic level.
We don't need to do that right away. In fact, I would highly recommend moving away from the spider goo before we try anything like that. But I'm getting the feeling that anything that has intelligence and could be used for reanimation is probably going to be of the same risky nature.
To comment on the other issue, I think we don't have enough gameplay to decide whether or not certain characters are better than others. When we encounter a tribe of spear-wielding fish people who have no deep sea abilities what so ever, I think fighter builds will start to feel a lot more important.
Post by: Gentlefish on February 08, 2017, 09:31:35 pm
E: Oh yeah, and I also made tags for human bodies and the crystal hive spheres.
Post by: Ozarck on February 08, 2017, 09:39:53 pm
Okay, so, just to make clear: no one minds if I break the body into parts because his mind went all roasty-toasty, right?I don't mind. you should ask the player though. Though, can we even resurrect Tony? his mind was destroyed by creatures fro mteh Deep. Is that permanent, and if not, has it been too long for us to retrieve his soul?
E: Oh yeah, and I also made tags for human bodies and the crystal hive spheres.
Post by: MidnightJaguar on February 08, 2017, 11:47:41 pm
Post by: NJW2000 on February 09, 2017, 03:25:21 am
Consider what kind of eyes improvements I could make from fragments of the crystal ball. Some sort of hard transparent shield over both the sockets?Spoiler: Verne (click to show/hide)
((Doing recovery roll now; didn't understand system previously))
Recovery: 1d100: [75] (Failure)
This is the right way to make a recovery roll, yes?
Post by: Devastator on February 09, 2017, 04:58:42 am
As for waiting for one to recover - what's to stop them from saying "let's wait in this location on ship for two days while people recover and builders build?" We don't actually need to be moving in order for that crap to happen. BUT! While some are recovering, building, and vandalizing the Bore others could still be out and about, gathering, conversing with the natives, diving the sea, whatever. Bottom line, I don't think a slower "safety" recover rate holds anyone back all that much.
I don't quite get what you're saying here. What is a day, anyway? Time doesn't pass when the bore isn't exploring.
About transcend being OP: simply using the skill itself may summon monsters that can do some real damage even at lower levels (at lvl. 3 one bad roll and it took away half my mind points!), so as pw said before there's already some balancing in that manner. This time the consequences were also bad for other people, but I don't think that's inherent to deep sea attack, the first monster fought purely on the psychic level.
Do also note that deep creatures that are immune to physical creatures are not useless against them. No transcend could mean I'll never hurt one, while still being quite capable of being hurt by one, special resistance or no. Only one of the three encountered monsters has been affected by that, while all three have had native immunity to physical attacks.
Post by: Radio Controlled on February 09, 2017, 10:56:34 am
Quote
Could you give me the exact recipe for a depth drive?PW, if you have the time, could you look at this?QuoteYeah...though not right now I'm hurrying. Post in the OOC and I'll reply then when I get back home.
Okay, so, just to make clear: no one minds if I break the body into parts because his mind went all roasty-toasty, right?That makes you the second person to contribute to the wiki after Ozarck, congratulations!
E: Oh yeah, and I also made tags for human bodies and the crystal hive spheres.
About transcend being OP: simply using the skill itself may summon monsters that can do some real damage even at lower levels (at lvl. 3 one bad roll and it took away half my mind points!), so as pw said before there's already some balancing in that manner. This time the consequences were also bad for other people, but I don't think that's inherent to deep sea attack, the first monster fought purely on the psychic level.
Do also note that deep creatures that are immune to physical creatures are not useless against them. No transcend could mean I'll never hurt one, while still being quite capable of being hurt by one, special resistance or no. Only one of the three encountered monsters has been affected by that, while all three have had native immunity to physical attacks.
The stone urchin was a deep sea creature that opted to take physical form instead of a psychic one, and I couldn't touch it below lvl.3. Also, that last monster didn't actually attack you guys even though you had been running around the cave for a while already, you just got caught in the crossfire when it noticed and assaulted me for daring to invade its turf. And then there's the whole 'have to go unconscious and helpless to use psychic powers' though admittedly that loses a lot of its sting if the psychic can sit around on the bore.
Post by: piecewise on February 09, 2017, 06:10:34 pm
Yep. recovery rolls are really the way to recover some HP after a fight or dangerous event without having to use kits or return to the bore. It's sort of like the amount of damage you can shake off due to being really tough.Consider what kind of eyes improvements I could make from fragments of the crystal ball. Some sort of hard transparent shield over both the sockets?Spoiler: Verne (click to show/hide)
((Doing recovery roll now; didn't understand system previously))
Recovery: 1d100: [75] (Failure)
This is the right way to make a recovery roll, yes?
the whole 'have to go unconscious and helpless to use psychic powers' though admittedly that loses a lot of its sting if the psychic can sit around on the bore.
Wait for it.
Alright so depth dive.
Mechanical 5, deep 5, weird 2, organic 4, flexible 3
What can be harvested from humans
Skin: Structural 1-organic 1
Muscle: Organic 2-elastic-1
Bone: Structural-2 organic 2
Blood: Chemical 2-organic 1
Veins and arteries: Transmitting 1-organic 2
Bile: Chemical 3-organic 2
Viscera (stomach, liver, kidneys, etc): Organic 3
Nerves: Transmitting 3-organic 4
Brain: Organic 5-intelligent 5
Heart: Organic 5-transmitting 3
Organs of sense: Sensing 3-organic 4
Adrenal and other glands: Chemical 3-organic 3
Post by: Ozarck on February 09, 2017, 06:49:15 pm
I made a generic character sheet template, which is nowhere near as sophisticated as the one on ER. I'd like to dribble in some more relevant stuff though.
Nah, I asked PW tonys permadead.I figured, especially when he started using your sheet as an NPC. I hope I've given at least an entertaining farewell to him for you though.
Post by: Radio Controlled on February 09, 2017, 06:55:19 pm
R_C. could you suggest some possible wiki contributions?
I made a generic character sheet template, which is nowhere near as sophisticated as the one on ER. I'd like to dribble in some more relevant stuff though.
Right now I'm still porting over info from the docs file to the wiki, I've made it until the blast weapon list. The rest of the file still has to be done (though the recent rules change has been added already). So perhaps you could work on porting over the last of that info? After that your best bet might be to just go through the thread (IC or OOC) and add information as you find it (for example, in the first couple of turns some details about the bore were revealed, such as the sensor ping, that I haven't added yet and wasn't in the original docs file).
You could also make a character page for Nameless and add some info there, to show people how it's done.
Post by: Devastator on February 10, 2017, 01:32:40 am
Post by: NJW2000 on February 11, 2017, 12:15:25 pm
Post by: piecewise on February 11, 2017, 02:19:57 pm
*NJW looks nervous* (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=162755.0)Be prepared for many turns of
"Yes, I understand. But summon that demon anyway."
Post by: Ozarck on February 11, 2017, 03:42:15 pm
Post by: piecewise on February 12, 2017, 03:51:10 pm
Post by: Radio Controlled on February 12, 2017, 04:06:48 pm
Post by: Ozarck on February 12, 2017, 04:12:34 pm
Hell, if necessary, I'll semi-retire Nameless for it.
or just alternate active cycles - Nameless when an active mission is on, Legs when we need to go go go.
Post by: piecewise on February 12, 2017, 05:24:02 pm
Post by: Radio Controlled on February 12, 2017, 05:34:18 pm
Alternatively, we do this; You use drive to configure the brain of the machine to do what you want and send it to act as you want.Perhaps I misunderstand what you're proposing here, but isn't this the way it currently works? That a player needs to use drive (aka control, I assume) to direct the machine where to go? Or do you mean it more that we give it a set of instructions once so that the drivers don't need to micromanage it?
Post by: piecewise on February 12, 2017, 06:43:30 pm
More like allowing drivers to set up an if-than series of commands that allows the machine to be somewhat programmed and then controlled by anyone who can talk to the brain.Alternatively, we do this; You use drive to configure the brain of the machine to do what you want and send it to act as you want.Perhaps I misunderstand what you're proposing here, but isn't this the way it currently works? That a player needs to use drive (aka control, I assume) to direct the machine where to go? Or do you mean it more that we give it a set of instructions once so that the drivers don't need to micromanage it?
Post by: Radio Controlled on February 13, 2017, 04:02:05 am
More like allowing drivers to set up an if-than series of commands that allows the machine to be somewhat programmed and then controlled by anyone who can talk to the brain.Alternatively, we do this; You use drive to configure the brain of the machine to do what you want and send it to act as you want.Perhaps I misunderstand what you're proposing here, but isn't this the way it currently works? That a player needs to use drive (aka control, I assume) to direct the machine where to go? Or do you mean it more that we give it a set of instructions once so that the drivers don't need to micromanage it?
I see convoluted nested if-then data structures in your future...
Post by: piecewise on February 13, 2017, 10:58:24 am
So long as people set it up in a flow chart, I'll be fine.More like allowing drivers to set up an if-than series of commands that allows the machine to be somewhat programmed and then controlled by anyone who can talk to the brain.Alternatively, we do this; You use drive to configure the brain of the machine to do what you want and send it to act as you want.Perhaps I misunderstand what you're proposing here, but isn't this the way it currently works? That a player needs to use drive (aka control, I assume) to direct the machine where to go? Or do you mean it more that we give it a set of instructions once so that the drivers don't need to micromanage it?
I see convoluted nested if-then data structures in your future...
Post by: Ozarck on February 13, 2017, 11:02:16 am
I suppose i could set up a flow chart of some complexity though.
Post by: Radio Controlled on February 15, 2017, 06:38:57 pm
Quote
Three things: One we are suspended directly over a giant cavern full of ocean right now, and not over the river at all. it's a sixty foot drop to the water.
Two: going directly up would require us to invert the Bore and dig upside down. PW has already said that digging directly sideways would make life challenging for the on the Bore, so, while i don't mind doing so, nothing of interest would get done while drilling.
Three: There is no three. I can't tell left from right sometimes.
Hey PW, I think you missed a square that we passed through - the one up-left from where we currently dangle over the Abyss. it's still marked black, but should be white?
I could take us up-left, up-left, up, up (which puts us at our starting square), down-right down-right, down-right, down-right (which will put us two squares to our right).
Or, to get to the same place, I can simply put us on our side, and go right, right.
Yeah, I messed up the directions somehow. The basic recommendation still stands though: exploring the water (be it river or large underground lake) until we find something interesting or we find it's 'end' (which... would be the surface I guess? Or the outside ocean?)
Seeing as how most people aren't really doing a lot, you could go sideways for all I care, to speed exploration up a little. Just be sure you give us the chance to strap down first!
Post by: Ozarck on February 15, 2017, 06:48:46 pm
Post by: piecewise on February 15, 2017, 07:01:42 pm
Post by: Ozarck on February 15, 2017, 07:23:05 pm
Post by: Devastator on February 16, 2017, 12:40:06 am
Or start throwing other people out.
Post by: Radio Controlled on February 16, 2017, 09:18:59 am
I could jump out again.
Or start throwing other people out.
One potentially cool idea to explore this lake is to tie people to the bore with a piece of very long rope and let them jump out and swim around. We'd let the builders tie the rope this time though. I think we have a couple of diving suits sitting around for people to wear. This would let a couple of people explore without just sitting in a crawler waiting.
(The rope might not even be really necessary depending on whether those suits can be used to swim, or if they're so heavy you'll get stuck on the lake floor.)
EDIT: hey we really do have dive suits in storage, it isn't just my imagination:
Quote
There's a few radios in storage, I think, and the dive suits in the airlock have radios. But they're not gonna work at any real range in the underground, especially if you put rock between each other.
Post by: piecewise on February 16, 2017, 10:23:16 am
well, we've build a bunch of stuff on the bore, found one interesting encounter, and spent a lot of time wandering around a seemingly sterile waterway. What are people going to do at the moment? Fire blindly at the cave walls? read underdark bedtime stories to the Deep Mites? instigate Insurrection? I imagine more will be posted when we actually can get out and check shit out, eh?Well, fair enough. I'm basically just wondering about format changes. We'll let it roll for the moment, but I know a lot of people, given sandboxes and freedom, get bored or unsure of what to do.
Post by: Radio Controlled on February 16, 2017, 10:35:04 am
well, we've build a bunch of stuff on the bore, found one interesting encounter, and spent a lot of time wandering around a seemingly sterile waterway. What are people going to do at the moment? Fire blindly at the cave walls? read underdark bedtime stories to the Deep Mites? instigate Insurrection? I imagine more will be posted when we actually can get out and check shit out, eh?Well, fair enough. I'm basically just wondering about format changes. We'll let it roll for the moment, but I know a lot of people, given sandboxes and freedom, get bored or unsure of what to do.
Clearly, the solution is to kick them out of the bore into the water (full of metaphorical and literal sharks) until drama unfolds itself. I'll just be here on the bridge heroically documenting everything.
Post by: syvarris on February 16, 2017, 03:13:49 pm
Post by: piecewise on February 16, 2017, 05:11:37 pm
In my case, it's not that I'm bored or unsure what to do, it's just that there's nothing productive for me to do, beyond perhaps sparring with other players for knowledge. Sifeebt has no build, no find to research in the library, no eye disk to explore the deep sea, no interesting areas external to the bore to explore, etcetera. He's a combat character who can't really do much beyond combat because the system penalizes versatile builds.HEY!
It only penalizes them if you failure and death as a penalty
Post by: Radio Controlled on February 18, 2017, 11:29:24 am
PW, could you maybe describe those diving suits a little? Do they float, for example?
Post by: Ozarck on February 18, 2017, 01:08:48 pm
Or ... you know ... tie a fucking rope to the Bore and make a rope ladder before beginning your metalcraft and inspection of every piece of otherwise useless equipment on the bore.
I am rapidly approaching the limits of my patience for this game.
Post by: piecewise on February 18, 2017, 01:27:05 pm
Assuming people want to explore Tapeworm Town (it's a disgusting affront to nature, why wouldn't we) we could build a diving bell, but we could also perhaps build ourselves a little rowboat and then lower that down into the water. Or lower people down in diving suits, perhaps with a floating element to prevent them sinking down.Well you're lucky enough that the tech has advanced to the point where you're not in a canvas suit with a big brass helmet and tubes attached to the bore. Although you're not far off. You've got yourself a tank of oxygen and a rebreathing system so you're not tethered to the bore, but the actual suit itself is still pretty big and clunky, for better or worse. Its got a natural 10 armor and a big metal helmet. Not the spherical kind; imagine if you took a towel and draped it over your head, with the ends going down your back and front. Its shaped kind of like that, a sheet of steel that covers part of your chest and back before sloping up to form a helmet with a ovoid viewport and some hoses attached to your air tank. The rest of the suit is made of sturdy, insulated, water tight fabric. It won't totally isolate you from temperature changes, but it will keep you protected to a degree. Its a full body suit too, complete with boots and gloves.
PW, could you maybe describe those diving suits a little? Do they float, for example?
As per sinking and floating, there are pockets for ballast. It naturally floats, though not terribly well. You'd float on your back, not standing up. The shoes are also weighted, so they'd naturally unbalance you.
Post by: piecewise on February 18, 2017, 01:28:22 pm
How about we throw even more obstacles in teh way of people getting out of the bore and actually exploring? maybe we need to weld all external accesspoints shut and spend eleven turns inventing a special portal using only the finest of ingredients dredged from the depths of the Sea in order to ingress/egress. We could paint over that glass dome as well - not like looking out and seeing stuff is useful either. It only gets in the way of us sitting around and tinkering ad nauseumYeah, thats basically what I said you could do.
Or ... you know ... tie a fucking rope to the Bore and make a rope ladder before beginning your metalcraft and inspection of every piece of otherwise useless equipment on the bore.
I am rapidly approaching the limits of my patience for this game.
Don't blame me, I just tell people possibilities, not what needs to happen.
Post by: Ozarck on February 18, 2017, 01:31:16 pm
I know. I made it part of my in game action to get a buildr to do that this turn, because you said it. However, the bore seems rather poorly equiped for getting people in and out in literally every situation we've encountered so far. You'd think it would have an extendable ladder built in or something.How about we throw even more obstacles in teh way of people getting out of the bore and actually exploring? maybe we need to weld all external accesspoints shut and spend eleven turns inventing a special portal using only the finest of ingredients dredged from the depths of the Sea in order to ingress/egress. We could paint over that glass dome as well - not like looking out and seeing stuff is useful either. It only gets in the way of us sitting around and tinkering ad nauseumYeah, thats basically what I said you could do.
Or ... you know ... tie a fucking rope to the Bore and make a rope ladder before beginning your metalcraft and inspection of every piece of otherwise useless equipment on the bore.
I am rapidly approaching the limits of my patience for this game.
Don't blame me, I just tell people possibilities, not what needs to happen.
fuck it. i'm grabbing one of those and diving.Assuming people want to explore Tapeworm Town (it's a disgusting affront to nature, why wouldn't we) we could build a diving bell, but we could also perhaps build ourselves a little rowboat and then lower that down into the water. Or lower people down in diving suits, perhaps with a floating element to prevent them sinking down.Well you're lucky enough that the tech has advanced to the point where you're not in a canvas suit with a big brass helmet and tubes attached to the bore. Although you're not far off. You've got yourself a tank of oxygen and a rebreathing system so you're not tethered to the bore, but the actual suit itself is still pretty big and clunky, for better or worse. Its got a natural 10 armor and a big metal helmet. Not the spherical kind; imagine if you took a towel and draped it over your head, with the ends going down your back and front. Its shaped kind of like that, a sheet of steel that covers part of your chest and back before sloping up to form a helmet with a ovoid viewport and some hoses attached to your air tank. The rest of the suit is made of sturdy, insulated, water tight fabric. It won't totally isolate you from temperature changes, but it will keep you protected to a degree. Its a full body suit too, complete with boots and gloves.
PW, could you maybe describe those diving suits a little? Do they float, for example?
As per sinking and floating, there are pockets for ballast. It naturally floats, though not terribly well. You'd float on your back, not standing up. The shoes are also weighted, so they'd naturally unbalance you.
Post by: piecewise on February 18, 2017, 01:44:56 pm
Ladder? No. Rope? Yes.I know. I made it part of my in game action to get a buildr to do that this turn, because you said it. However, the bore seems rather poorly equiped for getting people in and out in literally every situation we've encountered so far. You'd think it would have an extendable ladder built in or something.How about we throw even more obstacles in teh way of people getting out of the bore and actually exploring? maybe we need to weld all external accesspoints shut and spend eleven turns inventing a special portal using only the finest of ingredients dredged from the depths of the Sea in order to ingress/egress. We could paint over that glass dome as well - not like looking out and seeing stuff is useful either. It only gets in the way of us sitting around and tinkering ad nauseumYeah, thats basically what I said you could do.
Or ... you know ... tie a fucking rope to the Bore and make a rope ladder before beginning your metalcraft and inspection of every piece of otherwise useless equipment on the bore.
I am rapidly approaching the limits of my patience for this game.
Don't blame me, I just tell people possibilities, not what needs to happen.fuck it. i'm grabbing one of those and diving.Assuming people want to explore Tapeworm Town (it's a disgusting affront to nature, why wouldn't we) we could build a diving bell, but we could also perhaps build ourselves a little rowboat and then lower that down into the water. Or lower people down in diving suits, perhaps with a floating element to prevent them sinking down.Well you're lucky enough that the tech has advanced to the point where you're not in a canvas suit with a big brass helmet and tubes attached to the bore. Although you're not far off. You've got yourself a tank of oxygen and a rebreathing system so you're not tethered to the bore, but the actual suit itself is still pretty big and clunky, for better or worse. Its got a natural 10 armor and a big metal helmet. Not the spherical kind; imagine if you took a towel and draped it over your head, with the ends going down your back and front. Its shaped kind of like that, a sheet of steel that covers part of your chest and back before sloping up to form a helmet with a ovoid viewport and some hoses attached to your air tank. The rest of the suit is made of sturdy, insulated, water tight fabric. It won't totally isolate you from temperature changes, but it will keep you protected to a degree. Its a full body suit too, complete with boots and gloves.
PW, could you maybe describe those diving suits a little? Do they float, for example?
As per sinking and floating, there are pockets for ballast. It naturally floats, though not terribly well. You'd float on your back, not standing up. The shoes are also weighted, so they'd naturally unbalance you.
Post by: Ozarck on February 18, 2017, 02:29:36 pm
Post by: piecewise on February 18, 2017, 02:38:27 pm
Which we can't even tie onto the Bore safely without a respectable build score.I'll probably let that one go. Instead it will be a move score for climbing down it.
You should also stop making new characters to cover your weaknesses. The point of people being good at things or bad at things is instilling teamwork.
Post by: The Lupanian on February 18, 2017, 02:41:30 pm
Maybe we could be a little lax with simple actions, like climbing a rope. You can't really progress in any meaningful way without climbing a rope, so maybe you should just let people climb down a rope without rolling, especialy when it's the only way to progress in the game.Which we can't even tie onto the Bore safely without a respectable build score.I'll probably let that one go. Instead it will be a move score for climbing down it.
If we are trying to climb a rope as fast as we can, to escape some horrible monster, then we can roll.
Post by: piecewise on February 18, 2017, 03:01:49 pm
FairMaybe we could be a little lax with simple actions, like climbing a rope. You can't really progress in any meaningful way without climbing a rope, so maybe you should just let people climb down a rope without rolling, especialy when it's the only way to progress in the game.Which we can't even tie onto the Bore safely without a respectable build score.I'll probably let that one go. Instead it will be a move score for climbing down it.
If we are trying to climb a rope as fast as we can, to escape some horrible monster, then we can roll.
Post by: Ozarck on February 18, 2017, 03:15:02 pm
Which we can't even tie onto the Bore safely without a respectable build score.I'll probably let that one go. Instead it will be a move score for climbing down it.
You should also stop making new characters to cover your weaknesses. The point of people being good at things or bad at things is instilling teamwork.
As much as I'd love to do that, I don't think relying on other people in combat is good for your health in a piecewise game.
Actually, all I have made is a fighter and two utilities. The first utility (driver) was because we had the choice thrust upon us: let PW drive, make control useless by programming the Bore to autodrive, or get a functional driver. I recall a mission in ER getting scrubbed because only the pilots could do anything interesting. I'm just trying to use the mechanics of the game to prevent that same scenario.
Heck, had Egan actually posted a sheet, and tried to drive the Bore into the Ocean, Legs would not have resisted. Better a total party kill than endless "nothing yet. Maybe the builders can make something for you, eventually."
the second utility (Mr. Handyman) is primarily for unclogging toilets, tying knots, and lighting fires. He has stab ability simply to keep the "team" (aka sheetless wonders) from committing the same mistake a second time in a row, since the "so-called teammates" are more interested in long term, complicated projects than in getting us out and about.
...
I know this last bit is unfair to you R_C. You've listened to my suggestions before. I'm just frustrated every time this game updates and the results are basically "nope, still stuck a hundred feet in the air."
Edit: aaaaand now Pancaek is off on the diving bell sidequest, too. amke us a simple ladder guys. Damnfuckpiss, yo.
Post by: Egan_BW on February 18, 2017, 03:20:17 pm
Post by: Ozarck on February 18, 2017, 03:23:04 pm
Post by: Devastator on February 18, 2017, 08:18:32 pm
Post by: Egan_BW on February 19, 2017, 02:40:57 am
Post by: Ozarck on February 19, 2017, 01:07:06 pm
The bore's airtight, and it's pretty unlikely that you could have an ocean deep enough to crush metal this far underground.Is it? I can't find that information in teh Rules, teh description of the Bore, or the Wiki.
Edit: You dummy, we just got our people down there! I wouldn't have resisted if you'd have tried thats before half the crew was in the drop zone. Or if you'd wait til they return.
Post by: Devastator on February 19, 2017, 04:27:01 pm
Post by: syvarris on February 19, 2017, 04:32:27 pm
Post by: NJW2000 on February 19, 2017, 04:35:56 pm
Just not sure if anyone's ever suggested an alternative, what with the "what after ER" debate.
Post by: Radio Controlled on February 19, 2017, 04:40:42 pm
Oh come on people, metagaming? I could really benefit from murdering the mole, since my char needs an eye disk, but I decided not to because Sifeebt has no way to know what he's doing before boarding the bell.
It's a bit iffy, I do agree, but a random char coming out of thin air to drop the entire bore on top of other player characters for no apparent reason but to cause chaos seems to be rather out there as well.
As for characters not knowing, I guess Legs shouting it out over comms gives an excuse in that regard, for what it's worth.
Post by: Ozarck on February 19, 2017, 04:51:32 pm
Oh come on people, metagaming? I could really benefit from murdering the mole, since my char needs an eye disk, but I decided not to because Sifeebt has no way to know what he's doing before boarding the bell.
Legs sits in teh control chair, alone on the bridge. as soon as someone comes in to attempt to drive the thing, with the stated purpose of crashing it into the island below, he responds. And yes, he will yell over the intercom for people to come help, so I don't see those actions as meta. What? you want us to wait until after the conflict between Legs and ... I forget his name already ... to respond? That would be oddly meta as well.
It would be along these lines. "Well, we won;t know what he's going to do until he accomplishes it, so we must wait until the Bore is falling to act." instead of "Well, we won't know what he's going to do until he attempts it, and it is reported, at which point we should react naturally as our characters in game would - said characters not wanting to die pointlessly."
I mean, I suppose, everyone could add "when my character hears the call over the intercom, he'll run up to the bridge" or soemthing. that gives Egan a fighting chance to do the dirty deed before he's caught.
Here, i'll alter my intercom call to trigger when Egan actually starts trying to wrest control.
Post by: The Lupanian on February 19, 2017, 04:58:03 pm
Instead of having doing some light reading, grab my rifle and shoot Maurice until he stops being a threat. Alternatively, until he stops being.
Bring your pistol and we can do it Pulp Fiction style
Post by: Ozarck on February 19, 2017, 05:00:05 pm
Does there have to be a main PW game?That's entirely up to PW, but he seems to prefer having one main game and one or more side games.
Just not sure if anyone's ever suggested an alternative, what with the "what after ER" debate.
Post by: syvarris on February 19, 2017, 05:32:03 pm
@NJW
I'm pretty sure Dig is just a little game to hold people over until PW's done figuring out a good system for Oro. At least, he keeps sending me links to various tabletop systems and asking me to break them, and I assume that's for Oro.
Post by: Egan_BW on February 19, 2017, 06:47:20 pm
Post by: Egan_BW on February 19, 2017, 06:51:00 pm
Post by: piecewise on February 19, 2017, 06:55:55 pm
It doesn't matter much to me so long as people have fun. I'm still looking into Oro systems right now.Does there have to be a main PW game?That's entirely up to PW, but he seems to prefer having one main game and one or more side games.
Just not sure if anyone's ever suggested an alternative, what with the "what after ER" debate.
A game that can handle tons of people is hard to do though.
Post by: piecewise on February 19, 2017, 07:08:52 pm
Post by: Devastator on February 19, 2017, 07:55:47 pm
I'll point out you guys are shooting him even though he has no action to continue his attempts at bore drop."Meatbags."
Post by: The Lupanian on February 19, 2017, 08:42:27 pm
I'll point out you guys are shooting him even though he has no action to continue his attempts at bore drop.I was going to let him surrender, but then Sifeebt went for decapitation on him, and I'll be damned if I'm going to let him steal the kill.
Post by: Radio Controlled on February 20, 2017, 01:51:26 pm
ALSO! I much point out that nobody has actually attempted to explain to Maurice why this is a bad idea IC, but everyone does seem very keen to open fire.
Honestly, it's not like he really was a well developed character to interact with rather than a spontaneously generating engine of chaos. But if you're indeed actually trying to play a character and not just insert some random shenanigans I'll try and defuse the situation IC, then we can see where we go from there (assuming people can put away their murderboner for just a second).
Speaking of which, anyone here ever played something using powered by the apocalypse? Like Apocalypse world or Dungeon world?I have used adapted dungeon world for RL rp sessions before. Dunno how much it was altered by the gm though, never looked at the original ruleset.
Post by: Ozarck on February 20, 2017, 05:34:07 pm
Honestly, it's not like he really was a well developed character to interact with rather than a spontaneously generating engine of chaos. But if you're indeed actually trying to play a character and not just insert some random shenanigans I'll try and defuse the situation IC, then we can see where we go from there (assuming people can put away their murderboner for just a second).
This is exactly why ((ooc)) I acted to prevent his driving the bore. IC, I would assume there were enough tells to indicate he was ... unhinged.
spoiler=Maurice
Description: This is not a mole man. This is a clay troll that has a lot of brown moss growing on it. But it sorta looks like a mole man.
Edit: two other hints: his previous action, with no sheet and no character, was to drive the bore into the ocean. So the character seemed more plot device than character.
And he named him Maurice.
Post by: Egan_BW on February 20, 2017, 07:25:09 pm
Post by: piecewise on February 20, 2017, 09:06:20 pm
Seemed a good name for a moleman?It just happens to be the name of another person who almost killed everyone out of a misguided attempt at helping.
Post by: Egan_BW on February 20, 2017, 10:30:33 pm
Well, given that Maurice's first action was an exact copy of my first "action" to drop the bore, I think I can freely admit that I made Maurice to take that action. Doesn't mean that I didn't also make Maurice as a somewhat logical character who has actual reasons to do things, unlike myself.
Also, the original bolded text was a joke, and the only reason I'm playing right not is because PW said he'd let me do it if I posted a character. I had considered just sitting around for people to come back so it would be safe, but this way was funnier.
Post by: Ozarck on February 21, 2017, 08:03:02 am
Sometimes I kinda forget that.
Post by: Egan_BW on February 21, 2017, 02:12:21 pm
Post by: Devastator on February 22, 2017, 12:20:44 am
What's necessary to make a cream pie?
Post by: The Lupanian on February 22, 2017, 01:14:50 am
Also, could we turn the Bile into explosive?
Post by: piecewise on February 22, 2017, 08:00:18 pm
END OF MESSAGE
Post by: Radio Controlled on February 23, 2017, 02:15:53 pm
[AUTOMATIC RESPONSE: Piecewise is currently in exams. He will return tomorrow, god willing]
END OF MESSAGE
Good luck.
Also, I don't think that message was automated at all! Something's afoot here...
Actually never mind it seems totally legit~
Post by: piecewise on February 23, 2017, 04:21:38 pm
Good news: I made a test system for a ORO combat system. Albeit right now its actually balanced in such a way where players have short life spans than gnats on the sun. Probably. I also found another system that might fit our needs absolutely fucking perfectly, but I need to read it.
Bad news: 200 question take home test due this evening. See ya'll tomorrow, fucking hell.
Post by: Devastator on February 23, 2017, 04:27:59 pm
Post by: piecewise on February 23, 2017, 04:50:48 pm
Will Dig be continuing? I'm not that sold on ORO..Sure, if people want it to.
Post by: Gentlefish on February 23, 2017, 04:55:48 pm
Will Dig be continuing? I'm not that sold on ORO..Sure, if people want it to.
I know I've fallen off the face of the earth here a bit, but you're a godsend to all us players. Hail, the almighty and malevolent PW! Lo, he balances his games not for fairness, but for fun.
Post by: Radio Controlled on February 23, 2017, 04:59:24 pm
I personally also like DIG more than what I've seen of ORO.Will Dig be continuing? I'm not that sold on ORO..Sure, if people want it to.
Post by: syvarris on February 23, 2017, 07:46:27 pm
Post by: The Lupanian on February 23, 2017, 07:57:19 pm
I've also been paying attention to ORO for some time, and I really like the concept of ORO.
Post by: piecewise on February 23, 2017, 08:32:32 pm
I like Oro way more than I like Dig. Dig has massive systemic issues, and large seemingly-unfixable gameplay issues. Like time itself being a resource that's used very differently by different types of characters.Hey sy, read my love letters so that I can do something stupid
Post by: The Lupanian on February 23, 2017, 08:48:38 pm
You said chemical would be needed to make things that restore mind. Could we use the blood, bile, and adrenal glands from Tony's body to start making that stuff right now?Also, if DIG is going to continue, I'd like an answer on this before it gets burried again.
Also, could we turn the Bile into explosive?
Post by: Egan_BW on February 23, 2017, 09:02:43 pm
Post by: piecewise on February 23, 2017, 09:07:21 pm
You said chemical would be needed to make things that restore mind. Could we use the blood, bile, and adrenal glands from Tony's body to start making that stuff right now?Also, if DIG is going to continue, I'd like an answer on this before it gets burried again.
Also, could we turn the Bile into explosive?
Bile maybe.
Also uh...probably not. Because it needs a higher chemical number.
Post by: piecewise on February 24, 2017, 04:19:30 pm
Players in the game have 6 lives, hence the "Revolver" part. And while 6 lives may seem like a lot of leeway, I really think it's not going to be. Let me give you an example of why.
Stats determine a lot about the basic capacities of your character, and everyone's stats start at the human average, 10. At 10, you have 5 HP. And If I look at my weapon chart here, a machete does 2d4 damage. Which means that, vs a character with human average stats and no armor, a machete has a 62% chance to kill in one hit. And thats assuming they hit your limbs. If they hit your torso, thats 2d4+3. If they hit your head, 2d4+5. Hitting those parts is much less common, but still.
Revolver is a game where death is generally no more than a turn or two away.
Post by: Devastator on February 24, 2017, 07:48:11 pm
Revolver is a game where death is generally no more than a turn or two away.
Do those hits land? In ER, death was a turn or two away, but in order for that to happen, your opponent needed to first survive a round of uninterrupted fire from teammates, successfully roll to hit, and you had to fail a bare minimum of one save, and generally two or more, often featuring bonuses. Then you could take damage.
Post by: piecewise on February 24, 2017, 09:33:44 pm
Well, that depends on a few things. First, depends on your speed. That sets initiative. Second, depends on the attack being used. In melee you always get a roll to block/dodge, just like the enemy does. However, if they're using a gun thats different. There's an action you can take called "Take cover", it only takes half a turn and it makes it so you're able to do a defensive roll to try and avoid gunfire. But if the enemy acts before you, or you don't take cover, or you move after using "take cover", then you're not in cover, then you get no cover roll. So basically....If you're not in cover they just have to roll to-hit with a gun.Revolver is a game where death is generally no more than a turn or two away.
Do those hits land? In ER, death was a turn or two away, but in order for that to happen, your opponent needed to first survive a round of uninterrupted fire from teammates, successfully roll to hit, and you had to fail a bare minimum of one save, and generally two or more, often featuring bonuses. Then you could take damage.
But really, regardless of how hard or easy it is to die, the enemies use the same system so players have no advantage either way.
Post by: piecewise on February 25, 2017, 01:18:32 pm
Post by: piecewise on February 26, 2017, 05:50:09 pm
(http://i.imgur.com/A0YVRkj.png)
SOONTM
Post by: Egan_BW on February 26, 2017, 05:53:09 pm
Post by: Gentlefish on February 26, 2017, 11:07:12 pm
Post by: piecewise on February 26, 2017, 11:11:09 pm
I need that now. Good use of xenon.Well, since you asked
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=162993.0
Post by: Radio Controlled on March 01, 2017, 03:19:40 pm
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(PLEASE STAND BY FOR MOLE HORRORS)
I might be mistaken, but I think we aren't supposed to post actions until pw has had the chance to trigger the moleman meltdown massacre.
Post by: Ozarck on March 01, 2017, 05:22:00 pm
You might be right. he could have locked the thread though. Not that I really know how to do that myself. I figured it really only affects those still in the bore anyway, so sif, yerself, Legs, and anyone with DTD (deep tunnel dementia).Quote(PLEASE STAND BY FOR MOLE HORRORS)
I might be mistaken, but I think we aren't supposed to post actions until pw has had the chance to trigger the moleman meltdown massacre.
nameless, Bargthor, Razorblade, Breakfast, and Verne are probably unaffected for the moment, being off Bore. Now, if hte wormball reacts as well as the body of our dear friend, that's another story. In that case, all bets are off.
Post by: NJW2000 on March 03, 2017, 01:58:30 am
Post by: Radio Controlled on March 03, 2017, 03:15:48 am
Can anyone find the post where piecewise breaks down a body? I can't.If it's for the tags: http://dig.wikia.com/wiki/Tinker#Human_Body
Post by: NJW2000 on March 03, 2017, 05:54:32 am
Post by: Ozarck on March 03, 2017, 12:58:46 pm
Thanks. Anyone mind if I borrow Tony's nervous system, or some of it?"borrow."
Nameless kinda owns Tony's head, so he might be a tad irritated if you just up and take the brain, but then again, maybe not. kinda depends on how it's presented to him.
Of course, you'll have to find where Nameless put the head, yourself.
Post by: NJW2000 on March 03, 2017, 03:32:39 pm
Post by: Ozarck on March 03, 2017, 05:57:49 pm
Now that's quite a character.Spoiler: "Coinflip" Rayes (click to show/hide)
Post by: Egan_BW on March 03, 2017, 07:35:22 pm
Post by: Ozarck on March 03, 2017, 07:40:08 pm
I got tired of not being able to do basic damned things like dodge or climb, so have the ultimate generalist.I can see this as being a pretty usefulo playstyle, though it will take a little more for it to excel. At least he has a chance to be effective in most situations.
Post by: Ozarck on March 04, 2017, 03:35:56 pm
Nah, I got this. It's what Legs is for, after all. He didn't go to the crawler to hide, but to evac. If Rauth wants to descend past the chained ball Deeplings, Legs doesn't care.QuoteUnfortunately the guy who was gonna do that is currently hiding in the crawer because of accidental demon summoning so...that wait might be a while.Seeing as how I designed and made the thing, would it be ok if we say it was made with an automatic winch, or some sort of system to let the person inside the diving bell lower himself? So that Rauth isn't forced to sit around doing nothing. I could explain how this system would work if you want me to.
p.s. PW said you can't attack the thing directly. You need to do something like throw bits of the cavern at it, or raise a waterjet or a fierce wind or some shit.
"You can't attack it directly. How are you going to attack it?"
"I will attack it directly."
Post by: Radio Controlled on March 04, 2017, 03:51:22 pm
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Because you can't do it directly with the bead chain or anything. You have to manipulate the world to do damage.Aka have to do something in the real world and not through the deep, which this action should be (trying to physically detach one of the balls). Remember, I can't really do things a regular person (that, granted, could fly) can't do on this level, so no random spouts of intense water or airbending unless I dive deeper.
Post by: Ozarck on March 04, 2017, 09:08:28 pm
Post by: Radio Controlled on March 05, 2017, 05:57:50 am
you're in the deep. You can't physically grab anything, mr. comatrance. Are you throwing your spirit body at it then? I thought that was a Bad IdeaTM?I'm on lvl. 3 which grants me the following abilities:
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Level 3: Manipulation of local material in a way that resembles mundane. Ie, you can go and psychically move or do things that you could normally do with your body.
What you suggested would require at least lvl. 4:
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Level 4: Local Control. Manipulate matter.
Why would it be such a "Bad Idea" exactly (apart from general 'engaging with angry spirit constructs is bad for your health') to spirit walk over and try to attack it?
Post by: Ozarck on March 05, 2017, 11:08:39 am
Let me get this straight though. On level three, youcan do anything that a mundane can do on the mundane plane. With the added benefit of being able to fly, pass through stone, breath underwater, and so forth. and the down side is? If you die, we mundanes get attacked by monsters.
Post by: NJW2000 on March 05, 2017, 11:11:11 am
Post by: Devastator on March 05, 2017, 12:33:29 pm
Post by: NJW2000 on March 05, 2017, 12:50:23 pm
Post by: Radio Controlled on March 05, 2017, 01:26:38 pm
Well, for the same reason it would be a bad idea for a physical being to walk up to a Bull and try to yank off one of their testicles.Well yeah, in general monsters don't appreciate it when you try to forcefully separate their balls, but that also counts for any of you shooting or stabbing it (as difficult as the latter might be). Nobody else seems very eager to engage it, but I doubt it'll be content just hanging around in the air to chill out and not bother us.
Let me get this straight though. On level three, youcan do anything that a mundane can do on the mundane plane. With the added benefit of being able to fly, pass through stone, breath underwater, and so forth. and the down side is? If you die, we mundanes get attacked by monsters.
If anything, the fact that I cannot touch it in the deep might indicate it also can't hurt me back in this state, so with
I'd try forming an edge or something at 3, on the off-chance, but it looks like this might work.What do you mean exactly by 'forming an edge'? Grab something sharp to stab it?
I'm pretty sure that heavy thing (or the chests) may be good enough to contain things or be made of strong stuff. I'm thinking of taking a wall section out so we could just sling boxes back to the bore, instead of moving them over the hole.You could use the diving bell to gather large pieces of loot in and bring it up. Slinging things into the bore might be difficult given it's still at the top of the cave.
Post by: NJW2000 on March 05, 2017, 02:00:04 pm
Post by: Ozarck on March 06, 2017, 12:55:41 am
Good luck, either way.Well, for the same reason it would be a bad idea for a physical being to walk up to a Bull and try to yank off one of their testicles.Well yeah, in general monsters don't appreciate it when you try to forcefully separate their balls, but that also counts for any of you shooting or stabbing it (as difficult as the latter might be). Nobody else seems very eager to engage it, but I doubt it'll be content just hanging around in the air to chill out and not bother us.
Let me get this straight though. On level three, youcan do anything that a mundane can do on the mundane plane. With the added benefit of being able to fly, pass through stone, breath underwater, and so forth. and the down side is? If you die, we mundanes get attacked by monsters.
If anything, the fact that I cannot touch it in the deep might indicate it also can't hurt me back in this state, so withsomeheaps of luck I'll get in a few hits unopposed.
Post by: Toaster on March 06, 2017, 09:51:14 am
Post by: piecewise on March 06, 2017, 02:19:11 pm
Level 3 means you can interact with the world in a physical way while level 4 lets you mess with the material itself. So lets give it as an example: Trying to make a stone statue of yourself.
On level 3 you could do it by cracking off pieces of stone, carefully smoothing things and similar actions that can be done by human hands or tools.
On level 4 you could cause the rock to reform itself and take the shape of a statue.
So its more that on level 3 you can make jets of air or water, or drop rocks, but you couldn't, say change the state of the water or concentrate the air into a dangerous needle sharp stream. You'd basically just be throwing water or causing a strong wind.
Post by: Radio Controlled on March 06, 2017, 02:30:52 pm
Post by: piecewise on March 06, 2017, 03:18:32 pm
I can understand how a human would throw some water (though I doubt you can get much beyond splashing some water) but you'll have to explain to me how you'd start causing 'a strong wind' to appear as a regular human. Are beans enchiladas involved? :POr a fan. or waving your arms. Really, breaking a chunk of rock off the ceiling isn't something you do by hand either but you can do it with level 3. The point is that with level 3 you don't change the actual form of anything. You can knock chunks off or move it around but you can't change it from solid to liquid or manipulate the matter so that it forms shapes on its own rather than being shaped by your actions.
Post by: Toaster on March 12, 2017, 01:02:51 am
Post by: Radio Controlled on March 12, 2017, 04:50:54 am
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((you could maybe build some enhancement wire for Nameless. He's bugged all the rest of the builders for it, to no avail))While (strictly speaking) only speaking for myself, in general I think most builders would appreciate knowing what the actual recipe is of an item when asked to build something, as well as the person making the request gathering the items required. Y'know, facilitate them facilitating you.
Post by: Ozarck on March 12, 2017, 06:08:26 am
Radio, I think you and I have a communication problem.Quote((you could maybe build some enhancement wire for Nameless. He's bugged all the rest of the builders for it, to no avail))While (strictly speaking) only speaking for myself, in general I think most builders would appreciate knowing what the actual recipe is of an item when asked to build something, as well as the person making the request gathering the items required. Y'know, facilitate them facilitating you.
I typed out a big response to this, including quotes from both the IC and OOC threads, and then I thought about whether it was worth posting.
It wasn't, but I'll say two things:
1) I've been more than willing to do fetch quests for materials. give me something to do.
2) both times I asked for enhancement wire were before recipes were a thing.
Well, I edited in a request for the recipe for enhancement wire, so that solves one issue.
Post by: Radio Controlled on March 12, 2017, 03:56:43 pm
This of course has the problem that you'll need to get lucky to encounter something with the right tag(s), and then be in a position to actually get a hold of it. As for 'fetch quests' to get them, that's something you could ask pw about perhaps? I'm sure he could give you some pointers about what to look out for.
Also, when you asked before, was that when items needed a knowledge investment? Because if so, you can understand why builders weren't jumping at the bit at that moment, right?
Post by: Ozarck on March 12, 2017, 09:56:22 pm
Toaster asked about what stuff could be made and made an action to help with a project for armor. I offered a project that lines up with that action. What is the issue? Why is it an issue?
Yes, when I asked before it cost knowledge. yes, when i asked before, the available builders had their own personal pet projects to do. yes, this means mine got sidelined.
Toaster is available and doesn't have a personal pet project, so I made a suggestion. Why is this an issue?
Post by: Egan_BW on March 12, 2017, 09:57:58 pm
Post by: Ozarck on March 12, 2017, 10:01:33 pm
(Toaster also has 0 Build, btw.)What? really? Jesus. This whole conversation is pointless. Thanks for pointing that out Egan, saves me some time.
Post by: syvarris on March 13, 2017, 12:06:11 am
Spoiler: @Oz, kinda Radio (click to show/hide)
Post by: Ozarck on March 13, 2017, 01:58:56 am
Radio was just pointing out that, Was he? I suppose Radio could speak to this himself. while in the past you didn't need to ask for a recipe before you could make something, you do now. Since it requires little effort on your part to ask for a recipe, you might as well do that tiny bit to help out before you ask someone to spend a lot of time doing something for you, especially since it's entirely possible for enhancement wire to be impossible to obtain right now. I guess he could've been slightly more polite about saying that, Was he being impolite? what in his text makes you say that? If you are reading it as impolite, should I be blamed for reading it that way, if I did? but he still wasn't terrible.
You solved that by editting your postYes, at Radio's suggestion, I edited my post. I am willing to make that effort, as i have pointed out in this very conversation., but reacted with hostility and pointed out two things that are essentially irrelevant to what Radio was saying,Radio said he prefers to know the recipe before doign the work, and that the requestee (myself) should collect the material. I said "there was no recipe when I asked the other two times (but have edited my post now that there is one), and that I have been and remain more than willing to fetch the bits. Both points are directly relevant. as if they were extremely obvious, and insulting for him to miss. s if, like i said in that post, I felt that Radio and I were having a communication issue, and that I felt that these two points were important to understand where i was coming from. Which they are. Fetching items yourself would pretty much be assumed,You accuse me of pointing things out as if they are obvious and then defend Radio for making a statement that you just here claim is unnecessary. and that I claim was unnecessary. and you can't even know whether you'd need to before PW gives a recipe, anyway. Which is why I edited in the request, as per Radio's suggestion. The two past times you've asked for enhancement wire, you were asking builders to give up a very precious and rare resource without offering explicit and similarly valuable paymentThat this is the case was unkknown to me upo0n making both requests, again, the reason I dropped the matter at the time.; it's not surprising at all that nobody made the stuff for you, so it's not like people have been being unfairly difficult.Why do the two of you think I was blaming or accusing anyone of giving me the shaft here? Honestly, why?
Radio apparently interpreted that second statement as an accusation against him--"You have no right to say anything, you're one of the dicks that refused to help me!". He also was pointing out that it's foolish for any builder to say they'll build the EW for you This is a stretch, at best, since a) an agreement can be made for the service, conditional upon recieving the materials (and even additional materials for other projects - a condition I would be all too happy to accept) and b) the builders have been asking about and beginning and completing equally complicated projects. Or, at least, from what I have read about their soldier suits, big giant roboclaws, and terminator robobodies, they have. If I am mistaken, again the reason I am mistaken is because, as a non-builder, the details of their personal projects have been largely irrelevant to me. I assumed that, if my project were so intensive, and the builder in question were to discover that, they'd fill me in., since it's extremely likely that they can't. It will require special materials, and you have no such things on you, let alone the specific ones EW would probably require. He also seems to have missed the fact that you editted in a recipe request, so there's definitely foolishness on both your parts. >.>
Still, none of this warrants anywhere near the aggression those few posts show. I mean, Ozarck, what? Sure, he was speaking down to you a bit, but that warrants an angry essay which is too mean to post? I decided against the essay because I felt much of it was irrelevant. Instead, I distilled my thoughts down to those two points, both of which you felt were irrelevant and I didn't. the rest simply didn't add value to the conversation and were more likely to sidetrack than not. Yeah, he needs to work on his reading comprehension, but you need to work on your chill. I don't believe that my two posts in response to Radio either attacked, belittled, demeaned, or ridiculed him, or anyone else.
On my requests for Enhancement wire:
The first was very early in the game, even before the first major rules overhaul. I had no idea what was involved, but wanted to make an effort. in part, I wanted to test teh system. In part, I saw that builders were making neat stuff from the catalogue and wanted to get something as well. I felt that the enhancement wires suited my character, and were not significantly better than the Soldier suit, for example. I thought they were "about the same" really.
it might be important to note here that at the time, EW gave thre +5's rather than three +10s. I only found out about the improved bonuses tonight.
The second time I requested them was still before the switch to recipes. Pancaek requested info on the cost of EW, along with several other items. turned out, to my disappointement, that the EW was rather expensive. Pan, my best hope at that time, began a less expensive project, though, of course, the EW he was thinking of making might have been for himself anyway - he never said specifically he was thinking of making it for me. not that it mattered - when I found out how much it cost, I dropped it until a more opportune time (i.e., when some builder had a few free turns on their hands.)
Knowing the cost, I was fine with someone even beginning the project, but leaving it on the backburner, if you will, so that their other projects took precedence and the EW was built over a longer time.
The third time I mentioned it at all, was in response to someone who hasn't even been part of this conversation, and can't complete the project anyway. In an ooc comment. because he wanted to "help the builders." I hadn't seen his sheet and assumed he had build.
In regards to "putting in the work"
my main complaint about this game to date has been that it has been rather difficult to get the fighters and gunmen out to do any significant actions. It has been much easier to get the builders doing stuff, as they were all able to get involved in building projects immediately. of course, I recognize how boring the projects could be at the time, with their "keep building: turn 14" mechanic. and of course the Divers can get into the Deep whenever.
I attempted to push for a situation in which the military builds would get out of the Bore, gather resources, and return them for the builders because I felt that everyone wins that way.
As for myself, Nameless has done exactly four things in this game: spar, resource gathering, dive into the water here, and resource gathering.
I haven't even looked at what they used the big crystal ball for. I made no demands. I simply did what I thought of as "acting for the sake of the team." Maybe it's unfair of me to request another character to make EW for me, without some benefit to themselves, beyond my own cooperation with them and gratitude, but that's what I did. Now, had anyone said "here is a list of materials I need. fetch me some of them, in addition to the materials you need for the EW, and I will add your project to my list," I'd do it. heck, I'd do it if someone said "hey, here's some materials I need. mind looking around for them?"
Because I want to be useful. To feel like I have an impact on the game.
Hey, should I, as Legs, demand some form of payment for the service he provides? Should Nameless require payment for combat and so forth? I can do that, if the issue is "you are asking others to do something for you without pay."
On aggression
If Radio feels I have been unfair to him, I will be happy to discuss that with Radio. PMs or here, either way.
on the conversation to date: an irreverent summary
toaster: imma help the builders. what should I do
Me: ooh! something I've been wanting since the game started! EW!
Radio: yo, builders like it when you give them the recipe and fetch the materials
Me: recipes? they weren't a thing when I asked for things before, but whatever, i'll edit my post. buut why are you telling me to get the matsw? isn't that most of what my character does anyway? I thought you would have already known this about me. Seems we don't speak well to each other.
Radio: yeah, but, EW is expensive and you'll need to get out of the Bore to get the parts. also it used to be knowledge based and that was an expensive commodity
Me: *scrolling* yep, now i remember, that's why I haven't asked for it in a while. But why the hell are yo utelling me about needing to get out of the Bore? that's all I really want anyway.
Egan: yo, toaster doesn't have build
me: fuck
Sy: Oz, you're a dick
me: fuck off.
Post by: Radio Controlled on March 13, 2017, 08:02:59 am
I didn't intend my first comment as condescending (merely as advice to speed up the process) but if you were talking to someone specific I can see why that'd be like butting into a conversation. The whole idea behind commenting in the first place was to prevent nobody responding and you thinking nobody was willing to help you out, since I recalled that was something that had annoyed you in the past (and which your original request alluded to, in a way).
Either way, I did see you mentioning asking about the recipe via edit (the post after that just flowed better by shortly rementioning it) so once we have that we can see about how we'll get the materials needed and how to move forward, so at least something productive can come out of this farce in the end.
(For the record, I'm happy to help for free if it doesn't involve injecting personal capital (very rare parts) or requires a huge time investment (the original soldier suit came with the bonus of having a hidey hole for me).)
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but he still wasn't terribleThen I'm gonna have to try harder next time ~.~
Post by: Toaster on March 13, 2017, 09:13:09 am
Doug would like some armor, yes, but I'm not sure which to ask for since as far as I know there aren't any recipes out there. I don't want to ask for anything expensive since Doug hasn't done anything to earn it yet, but something basic would be nice; that said, I don't know where the basic/advanced line is.
Post by: Radio Controlled on March 13, 2017, 09:19:06 am
Normally recipes should be added to the armory, into the 'Crafting recipe' column. The tinker page on the other hand should hold materials and what tags they get. There is no clear line yet on what is basic and what not, though perhaps a good definition for 'basic' are things that can be built from materials easily found on the bore itself.
Post by: Ozarck on March 13, 2017, 03:09:03 pm
added categories for Living engines and miscellaneous items (tools, body enhancements, random crap).
added all known recipes that I could find.
it's a bit of a mess, and i didn't fill in all the squares, so there is room for improvement, but it's a start.
Post by: Radio Controlled on March 14, 2017, 10:50:29 am
I had been putting of adding the living engines because I wasn't sure where to add the descriptions, but perhaps putting those on the item's own page somewhere down the line works best (like we did with the er armory basically). The most important info is there though.
And for the rest of you, remember that pw said he could reward wiki contributions by granting bonus knowledge (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=162123.msg7351198#msg7351198), so if you needed any more reason to start gnoming (outside the goodness of your heart, of course) there you go.
Post by: piecewise on March 14, 2017, 12:13:23 pm
I noticed, thanks a bunch for the effort. There's quite some recipes on there now, it's filling out nicely.
I had been putting of adding the living engines because I wasn't sure where to add the descriptions, but perhaps putting those on the item's own page somewhere down the line works best (like we did with the er armory basically). The most important info is there though.
And for the rest of you, remember that pw said he could reward wiki contributions by granting bonus knowledge (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=162123.msg7351198#msg7351198), so if you needed any more reason to start gnoming (outside the goodness of your heart, of course) there you go.
Knowledge and maybe materials, depending on the character.
Post by: Ozarck on March 14, 2017, 12:34:06 pm
Did not include inventory or weapon.
Feel free to scoff at my work, and make a better template.
If you are interested in adding character sheets as is, simply:
1) create a new page,
2) use your character name as the title, or whatever
3) click on 'insert' in the upper left of the edit pane,
4) click on "character sheet"
5) fil in the boxes with the appropriate information.
6) save changes.
Post by: The Lupanian on March 14, 2017, 01:12:23 pm
I did all of the currently active characters. Feel free to clean up, I'm kinda sloppy at web stuff, so they might not be pretty.
Post by: Devastator on March 14, 2017, 03:52:42 pm
Post by: The Lupanian on March 14, 2017, 04:19:17 pm
Could you skip mine, please?
If you're referring to your character page, it's too late. But feel free to edit the page I put up.
Sorry if the character pages were supposed to be left to the owners of the characters, I just thought it would be useful to do.
Post by: Devastator on March 14, 2017, 11:06:49 pm
At least I do get to win my "bet" with RC, on that someone would make a templated character sheet that will stick around forever.
Post by: Ozarck on March 14, 2017, 11:24:06 pm
Yet, crafting. that way lies madness. But crafting appeals to gnomes, so if the game deepens, likely it'll bring in someone more interested in fiddling with templates than I.
Post by: syvarris on March 14, 2017, 11:40:02 pm
Saint's wiki page was only half maintained by me, and I wasn't even trying to hide information, but he still ended up having plenty of hidden things virtually nobody knew about simply because few people had any reason to look at his page beyond the stats and appearance. Information being available does not equate to information being known.
Post by: The Lupanian on March 15, 2017, 03:11:16 am
Post by: Radio Controlled on March 15, 2017, 10:28:21 am
Nah, that's fine, you're doing good work. Dev just has certain, ah, hang ups on this topic.Could you skip mine, please?If you're referring to your character page, it's too late. But feel free to edit the page I put up.
Sorry if the character pages were supposed to be left to the owners of the characters, I just thought it would be useful to do.
Either way, since pw isn't using the wiki to keep track of charsheets this time, Dev, you could easily delete the content you don't like of the page and leave it blank. Right now nothing is on there that isn't also in the char sheet you post with every action, so your capacity for sneaking or skulduggery shouldn't be impacted.
By the way, if people wanted an example of what you could use your character page for: on mine I added what I'm trying to build right now, as well as what tags I've already collected. Of course this could also be added to the charsheet you post in the thread, but that clutters it for pw and I find it's too unwieldy for lots of info I'll only occasionally need. Also things like an expanded character bio can go there. Think of it like your personal workspace (next to the one you get when you make an account for the wiki).
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At least I do get to win my "bet" with RC, on that someone would make a templated character sheet that will stick around forever.Lucky me then that I don't take sucker's bets ;)
Post by: Devastator on March 15, 2017, 02:02:16 pm
Either way, since pw isn't using the wiki to keep track of charsheets this time, Dev
Yet. Care to take a bet that it'll happen, and that I'll have to do that repeatedly, note or not?
Post by: Radio Controlled on March 15, 2017, 02:38:43 pm
It's possible, but the way it's set up now is actually the most convenient for pw (doesn't have to check the wiki for anything) so I doubt he has much incentive to change (and anytime someone forgets their sheet he gets to make them autofail, how could he turn that down). As for the latter, we'll see, I could protect the page if it gets egregious.Either way, since pw isn't using the wiki to keep track of charsheets this time, DevYet. Care to take a bet that it'll happen, and that I'll have to do that repeatedly, note or not?
Post by: piecewise on March 15, 2017, 06:07:19 pm
Either way, since pw isn't using the wiki to keep track of charsheets this time, Dev
Yet. Care to take a bet that it'll happen, and that I'll have to do that repeatedly, note or not?
Piecewise, like most elemental forces capable of horribly mangling a person, follows the path of least resistance.It's possible, but the way it's set up now is actually the most convenient for pw (doesn't have to check the wiki for anything) so I doubt he has much incentive to change (and anytime someone forgets their sheet he gets to make them autofail, how could he turn that down). As for the latter, we'll see, I could protect the page if it gets egregious.Either way, since pw isn't using the wiki to keep track of charsheets this time, DevYet. Care to take a bet that it'll happen, and that I'll have to do that repeatedly, note or not?
Post by: Radio Controlled on March 15, 2017, 06:19:30 pm
Post by: Toaster on March 15, 2017, 07:06:21 pm
Also it's kinda NSFW if you're googling that.
Post by: piecewise on March 15, 2017, 08:01:20 pm
Oi PW, have you seen the Kingdom Death: Monster board game? Conceptually, it looks up your alley, if not mechanically, what with survivors in a grim deadly wasteland tearing bits off hideous monsters to build a gloomy settlement before they die horribly in the dark.Heard about it years ago my man. And yeah, its totally up my alley. Unfortunately, it costs literally hundreds to thousands of dollars and is rare as hell. Luckily you can play it on tabletop simulator. Models look crappy but hey, I care more about the game anyways.
Also it's kinda NSFW if you're googling that.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Egan_BW on March 15, 2017, 11:58:15 pm
Transcend: 80 =>95 (+10 character trait +5 eye disk)
Transcend: 80+5
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
I require comment from the great skeletony one.
Post by: Ozarck on March 18, 2017, 04:52:42 pm
*this from the guy with a second character so we don't have to wait on drivers. Hypocrisy? Probably*
Post by: Gentlefish on March 18, 2017, 05:08:04 pm
I don't think puppeting other players' characters should be a thing in this game.
*this from the guy with a second character so we don't have to wait on drivers. Hypocrisy? Probably*
It's fine, it's an action I was going to do anyway but wasn't physically around to re-post. But it would set a scary precedence.
Post by: Ozarck on March 18, 2017, 05:17:12 pm
It's not fine. I am talking 'in general,' rather than 'in gentlefish' particular case. I think hte rule should be "no puppeting, with exceptions." and the exceptions should be carefully controlled.For example, if one gives explicit permission beforehand.I don't think puppeting other players' characters should be a thing in this game.
*this from the guy with a second character so we don't have to wait on drivers. Hypocrisy? Probably*
It's fine, it's an action I was going to do anyway but wasn't physically around to re-post. But it would set a scary precedence.
Post by: Gentlefish on March 18, 2017, 05:30:02 pm
Post by: piecewise on March 19, 2017, 09:05:59 am
Thats basically what I intended anyway. But as was said, Gentle's last action was to make things and he was just unable to make them at the time due to lacking materials. So I effectively pushed his action forward till when it was viable. The people puppeting him was just because I find the image funny.It's not fine. I am talking 'in general,' rather than 'in gentlefish' particular case. I think hte rule should be "no puppeting, with exceptions." and the exceptions should be carefully controlled.For example, if one gives explicit permission beforehand.I don't think puppeting other players' characters should be a thing in this game.
*this from the guy with a second character so we don't have to wait on drivers. Hypocrisy? Probably*
It's fine, it's an action I was going to do anyway but wasn't physically around to re-post. But it would set a scary precedence.
Post by: Toaster on March 19, 2017, 09:59:36 am
Post by: The Lupanian on March 19, 2017, 03:32:41 pm
Could we use a piece of the crystal to store dead peoples minds until a new body can be built?
Post by: Devastator on March 19, 2017, 03:36:36 pm
Post by: Toaster on March 19, 2017, 03:36:55 pm
Post by: Ozarck on March 19, 2017, 05:11:07 pm
I have no objection to that, as a special circumstance. The IC puppeting was never an issue, and I agree, it was funny. I got a kick out of it, anyway.Thats basically what I intended anyway. But as was said, Gentle's last action was to make things and he was just unable to make them at the time due to lacking materials. So I effectively pushed his action forward till when it was viable. The people puppeting him was just because I find the image funny.It's not fine. I am talking 'in general,' rather than 'in gentlefish' particular case. I think the rule should be "no puppeting, with exceptions." and the exceptions should be carefully controlled.For example, if one gives explicit permission beforehand.I don't think puppeting other players' characters should be a thing in this game.
*this from the guy with a second character so we don't have to wait on drivers. Hypocrisy? Probably*
It's fine, it's an action I was going to do anyway but wasn't physically around to re-post. But it would set a scary precedence.
Now taking bets, how many turns until someone sends the bell back down to pick up the guys stranded on the worm mass?Seems like half the game is spent trying to get into and out of the Bore, as well as to get the Bore from one place to another.
Post by: The Lupanian on March 19, 2017, 05:30:23 pm
Post by: Ozarck on March 19, 2017, 07:38:23 pm
Isn't the rope still there? Why can't you just use the rope?climbing is dependent on the move skill.
Post by: The Lupanian on March 19, 2017, 08:06:54 pm
Post by: Radio Controlled on March 19, 2017, 08:37:21 pm
Post by: Egan_BW on March 19, 2017, 08:42:01 pm
Post by: Radio Controlled on March 19, 2017, 08:46:08 pm
Remote control hoverbell? Go anywhere!Watch them crash it two turns in.
Post by: Egan_BW on March 19, 2017, 08:48:31 pm
Post by: piecewise on March 19, 2017, 09:58:20 pm
If Dev's aim was better we'd already have crashed the existing bell.Remote control hoverbell? Go anywhere!Watch them crash it two turns in.
Post by: piecewise on March 19, 2017, 10:00:51 pm
I've got other ideas for stuff we could mess with while I work on Oro's combat system, though the Revolver test seems to be working alright. Any watchers of that have opinions by the way?
Post by: Egan_BW on March 19, 2017, 11:28:12 pm
Post by: Devastator on March 20, 2017, 01:13:14 am
If Dev's aim was better we'd already have crashed the existing bell.
Wait, you mean there's something the pistol can actually hurt? ;-)
Post by: syvarris on March 20, 2017, 04:22:25 am
I think you did much better making an exploration system when you made Crossroads, which ironically seemed to be a bit more combat focused than DIG. Crossroads made everyone have the same base skillset and abilities, but with limited and powerful boons to give them individuality and focuses. It was also just a much simpler system, which I'd think would lend itself to a big multiplayer game.
...Why don't you run Crossroads again, just with more people? Maybe add DIG's resource and manufacture system to it, replacing the ER-like armory? Or, hell, take Crossroads' insanity system and use it in something, I really really love the insanity system.
Post by: Radio Controlled on March 20, 2017, 08:57:15 am
Now taking bets, how many turns until someone sends the bell back down to pick up the guys stranded on the worm mass?
I'll take that bet! I'd wager... 2 turns or less. What ya bettin', boy?
What was the big idea there anyway? Crash the only way to transport up all the heavier loot he has? All to... prove a point or something?If Dev's aim was better we'd already have crashed the existing bell.Remote control hoverbell? Go anywhere!Watch them crash it two turns in.
Spoiler: Dev you can't read this. Yes you Dev. I'm watching you. (click to show/hide)
Out of curiosity, how are you guys feeling? I like the concepts of dig, the "Internauts" exploring underground, but do you guys feel like the system around it is working out?
I've got other ideas for stuff we could mess with while I work on Oro's combat system, though the Revolver test seems to be working alright. Any watchers of that have opinions by the way?
I think the system as it is works fine enough, simple enough not to be cumbersome but not too restrictive. Though there are some difficulties with it, as long as you're willing to waffle a little around the edges (eg not requiring move roll to descend the rope, allowing us to use a preset set of rules to pilot the bore when pilots go AFK, etc.) I think this should work out well. If nothing else, I'm having a ton of fun with it, exploring and learning about the world and slowly but surely gathering items to grow in power.
On revolver specifically, no real comments on the system, but the setting seems a little too dungeon crawly for my (personal) tastes, I prefer it if there's a little more to it than that.
Post by: piecewise on March 20, 2017, 10:36:58 am
I'm really not a big fan of Dig's system. Most of the fun of Dig comes from hunting around and exploring, rather than straight combat, but its system isn't built for that at all. It's a system which rewards people finding roles and playing those roles exclusively, which would work great in a squad combat game--but not an exploration game where, ideally, everyone is somewhat well-rounded and capable of surviving alone.Fair. I'll have to go remind myself what crossroads is like...
I think you did much better making an exploration system when you made Crossroads, which ironically seemed to be a bit more combat focused than DIG. Crossroads made everyone have the same base skillset and abilities, but with limited and powerful boons to give them individuality and focuses. It was also just a much simpler system, which I'd think would lend itself to a big multiplayer game.
...Why don't you run Crossroads again, just with more people? Maybe add DIG's resource and manufacture system to it, replacing the ER-like armory? Or, hell, take Crossroads' insanity system and use it in something, I really really love the insanity system.
If anything what I'm gonna do is be like "Eh, fuck this system. Now we're using this system. But the general idea is still the same." The idea works, its just finding the framework that works for it.Now taking bets, how many turns until someone sends the bell back down to pick up the guys stranded on the worm mass?
I'll take that bet! I'd wager... 2 turns or less. What ya bettin', boy?What was the big idea there anyway? Crash the only way to transport up all the heavier loot he has? All to... prove a point or something?If Dev's aim was better we'd already have crashed the existing bell.Remote control hoverbell? Go anywhere!Watch them crash it two turns in.Spoiler: Dev you can't read this. Yes you Dev. I'm watching you. (click to show/hide)Out of curiosity, how are you guys feeling? I like the concepts of dig, the "Internauts" exploring underground, but do you guys feel like the system around it is working out?
I've got other ideas for stuff we could mess with while I work on Oro's combat system, though the Revolver test seems to be working alright. Any watchers of that have opinions by the way?
I think the system as it is works fine enough, simple enough not to be cumbersome but not too restrictive. Though there are some difficulties with it, as long as you're willing to waffle a little around the edges (eg not requiring move roll to descend the rope, allowing us to use a preset set of rules to pilot the bore when pilots go AFK, etc.) I think this should work out well. If nothing else, I'm having a ton of fun with it, exploring and learning about the world and slowly but surely gathering items to grow in power.
On revolver specifically, no real comments on the system, but the setting seems a little too dungeon crawly for my (personal) tastes, I prefer it if there's a little more to it than that.
As per Revolver, yeah, its just a crawl because its a test. The actual Idea for how to work it as a full game is to have the combat and shit remain basically unchanged but rather than having an endless dungeon, have a player base and then have players go out on missions into the world. Xcom style. Develop the base, look after the needs of the people there, build up defenses, etc. I've been talking with sy about it for a bit. Once I get the combat ironed out, I just need to set up the method of base making and development and figure out if I want the world to be connected, dark souls style, or have each mission work as a sort of "instance", unique locations you don't go back to.
Post by: Ozarck on March 20, 2017, 07:21:25 pm
actually, I kinda like hte system, but it would be better used in one of thosegames where certain roles are dictated. Like: "Dig: a game ofr 6-10 players. here are the slots available:
Driver, builder (x2), Diver, gunner (x2) fighter (x2)."
As it is, most builds in the game feel useless and irrelevant. the game could run with an automated driver, one fighter to stand guard and kill divers, and the rest o the crew be diver/builders.
Spoiler: Edit: @ R_C. Dev, stay out (click to show/hide)
Post by: piecewise on March 20, 2017, 09:50:11 pm
I've flip flopped around with what I was planning due to various things seeming either too difficult or just not fun for me to continue to work on. Huge simulations would be possible but cause burn out. So the game has to be focused, at least the majority of the time, on the direct player actions in the small scale. However I still wanted to have some aspect of base building and expansion and stuff, so I went around and researched systems that have that sort of thing. Closest I found was that of "No country for old Kobolds" which has a system that is...Well I'm taking ideas not that system.
The general premise is that players control the town as a group, Choosing what to do with it, what buildings to make, what to research, etc. The town will be planned out on a grid map, much like what you see in Revolver. Doing this for 2 reasons: First because limited space can force choices and specialization. Second because if we have base invasions, It will be more meaningful if its on a town map you planned. What sort of things will be researched and constructed I'll still need to thing on but standard upgrades seem a viable idea; and a way to help newbies not be underpowered on spawn.
Population will determine town level, with new inhabitants coming to join the town as it grows or if you rescue them or do certain things. This will also be the player pool you pull from for playing, so if the town population bottoms out, then no more people can get pulled. This effectively means that losing too many people delevels the village, so the ability to through endless hordes at a mission is evened out somewhat by the fact that it's a phyric victory. Part of the town management is the concept of "Needs". The town has needs, and these needs take the form of dials that slowly tick down until they are empty. It can be simple things, like water or food, or more complex things needed for a specific reason. Like, say, supplying your forges with a specific kind of metal to make that new gun. Whenever you get a new building, you get a new power or upgrade but a new need as well. People dying and other failures cause those need dials to tick downward and if they hit zero, things start going very poorly. Threats are another dial that works similarly, but they go up as you succeed. The more of a foothold you make in the world, the more attention you draw. And attention can be very dangerous.
The game will mostly be mission based, where you are sent out with a specific goal, generally something that either refills a need or allows upgrades or lowers a threat. I still haven't figured out if I want a connected, consistent world or one made of instances. XCOM is instance style and its the easiest. It also allows for most variety because I can just do whatever. Connected means we have a set up map that you expand outward on. Its nice in that it allows for things like outposts or patroling areas or returning to places as things change and the like. But its also more difficult to set up because it requires a fair deal of forethought.
Post by: The Lupanian on March 20, 2017, 10:14:56 pm
Post by: Devastator on March 20, 2017, 10:36:12 pm
What was the big idea there anyway? Crash the only way to transport up all the heavier loot he has? All to... prove a point or something?
Nah, not really, I just didn't want to do a plain 'pass time' action, and didn't think the pistol would do anything. A miss would be nothing serious, and I thought a hit would just bounce off.
Post by: Toaster on March 20, 2017, 11:08:00 pm
1) For "new player viability" certain building upgrades could decrease cost of basic gear (assuming there is some sort of monetary system), increase its availability, or just make it free outright. For example, with totally made-up items:
Scrapyard: Reduces cost of tier 1 armor by 1
Leatherworker: Reduces costs of tier 1-3 armor by 1
Smithy: Tier 1 armor is now free. Cost of 2-3 armor reduced by 2, tier 4 armor reduced by 1
Armorer: Tier 1-2 armor is free. 2-4 armor reduced by 2, 5-6 reduced by 1.
And so on.
2) Players not on missions will want to do something, but managing full actions on a regular basis is time consuming. Therefore, every RL week, every player can choose a "pursuit" from a predefined list. This could be gathering resources for the colony, working on building upgrades, or maybe earning credits toward training/stat ups/etc, depending on stat system used. (A +1 to a stat in the Dig system isn't a big deal, but in ER it was quite big) If you've already decided that non-mission players are static, then you can ignore this.
Finally, for your last question, I'd say do a hybrid. Most missions are instanced, but occasionally throw in a scripted one that is reflected in town upgrade/management, or becomes a recurring area, or is traveled through often, or has an outpost, or other fun things. It would allow it to be less structured without making everything a one-off event.
Post by: syvarris on March 20, 2017, 11:20:52 pm
Post by: Devastator on March 20, 2017, 11:57:58 pm
Post by: Egan_BW on March 21, 2017, 01:27:24 am
Post by: Radio Controlled on March 21, 2017, 07:09:54 am
Quote
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
PW did ask for our personal opinion, so that's what I gave (I even specified that to an extend). I do think that, while not perfect, the system works well enough to be doable. It might be different for someone with no support skills at all, but honestly, we're only at our second expedition, the next one might be a combat one in which the builders and divers will be the ones to feel useless (and to be terribly honest, I sort of doubt the wisdom of getting no support skills in a game that's presented like dig, though I guess one can't be blamed for thinking there'd be more direct action).
Of course, if there's a better system available that ensures workarounds aren't needed in the first place and helps prevent people from overspecializing, that's fine by me, but I kinda suspect that another rulechange (and the respeccing that brings) would slow things down a lot and kill some of the interest in the game.
Spoiler: I spray this post with Dev-Be-Gone! (click to show/hide)
Post by: Ozarck on March 21, 2017, 08:17:41 am
Maybe the next location will have something of interest for other builds, but maybe not. Who's to say? We aren't there yet. I'm going by the history of the game so far. And that history has shown certain characters acting freely quite regularly while others twiddle their thumbs and wait. And wait. and wait.
The archetypes suggest a degree of specialization. Early on, as we discussed builds, someone suggested that not maxing out stats was a poor choice, as it gave pretty low odds of succeeding in multiple skills as opposed to decent odds of succeeding in a few skills. And the Bore NEEDS a driver - someone with COntrol. So far, that is the only thing Control is used for, and PW has offered to take that action from us, making Control effectively a dump stat. Same with recover. it's been handwaved away, more or less. Oh, except on one of those mythical combat missions we haven't had (well, that is, everyone but Joshua hasn't had).
And for both of our missions, getting to and from the mission site has been the biggest hurdle, due to lack of drivers, lack of people with move skill, and the complete disinterest shown by builders for doing simple tasks like tying a rope to the Bore (another place in which a stat was handwaved away, though I actually agree here, as it was a simple action that shouldn't have needed a build skill roll.)
See a pattern? Either people are doing a lot of waiting, or various aspects of the mechanics are being handwaved away. both suggest flaws in the system.
I'm not saying the system can't be improved upon and be successful. I am saying that, I feel (my opinion) that as it is, it doesn't work well at all.
Spoiler: seekrit meeting. No Devs (click to show/hide)
Post by: piecewise on March 21, 2017, 08:29:26 am
I'd probably throw in the crossroads system, which you can view here:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/7d2fzvbrksy36qy/Crossroads%20-%20Copy.pdf?dl=0
Its basic RTD with some modifications so restating would go fast.
Post by: Rautherdir on March 21, 2017, 08:35:00 am
Hmm. After a readthrough of those rules that looks pretty good. Is it an actual poll or what?
Post by: Radio Controlled on March 21, 2017, 08:39:19 am
Quote
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
That's fair, I guess we've just had very different experiences. Perhaps there needs to be some more incentive for people to take some control skill other than things like driving the bore or the crawler (which are things that help the team but don't give that individual any real advantages). Maybe if we can tame some of these worms and let drivers use them as pets... Though that wouldn't solve any systemic problems, of course.
Spoiler: You know the drill (click to show/hide)
Post by: NJW2000 on March 21, 2017, 11:57:24 am
While it would probably still use the tag system, I would be REALLY against Crossroads if it dropped that mechanic.
Post by: Egan_BW on March 21, 2017, 12:33:05 pm
Post by: Ozarck on March 21, 2017, 03:50:04 pm
QuoteSpoiler (click to show/hide)
That's fair, I guess we've just had very different experiences. Perhaps there needs to be some more incentive for people to take some control skill other than things like driving the bore or the crawler (which are things that help the team but don't give that individual any real advantages). Maybe if we can tame some of these worms and let drivers use them as pets... Though that wouldn't solve any systemic problems, of course. There should be an automated charge for driving the Bore and the Crawler. I'd charge personally, but that will end up with someone else making a character, taking over the job, losing interest in two turns, going idle, and PW automating the system, further unbalancing the current system.Spoiler: You know the drill (click to show/hide)
Post by: piecewise on March 21, 2017, 04:56:07 pm
Seems more realism-driven than DIG... I think I like the crossroads system less on the whole.No reason to remove the tag crafting. The problem people have is with the fact that DIG's system is specialization focused and not set up for the sort of general stuff most people do.
While it would probably still use the tag system, I would be REALLY against Crossroads if it dropped that mechanic.
Post by: piecewise on March 21, 2017, 07:25:18 pm
http://www.strawpoll.me/12581119
Post by: Toaster on March 21, 2017, 07:51:24 pm
That said, I do think the specialization in Dig is a bit much, and can totally see the objections that some people have. Nevertheless, I think this is what we've got.
Post by: The Lupanian on March 21, 2017, 11:18:35 pm
Spoiler: SPONGEBOB! (click to show/hide)
Post by: syvarris on March 22, 2017, 03:36:47 am
Post by: Pancaek on March 22, 2017, 01:51:00 pm
Quote
it has a big stone door rather than an open doorway.
Looks important.
I want to open it, because what's inside could be interesting.
Then again, opening it might just make the entire thing explode, so I'm hesitant.
Post by: Radio Controlled on March 22, 2017, 02:02:47 pm
Quoteit has a big stone door rather than an open doorway.I want to open it, because what's inside could be interesting.
Looks important.
Then again, opening it might just make the entire thing explode, so I'm hesitant.
C'mon now pancaek, it's just a random door, what's the worst that could happen?
Post by: Gentlefish on March 22, 2017, 02:26:44 pm
Quoteit has a big stone door rather than an open doorway.I want to open it, because what's inside could be interesting.
Looks important.
Then again, opening it might just make the entire thing explode, so I'm hesitant.
C'mon now pancaek, it's just a random door, what's the worst that could happen?
It's just a door, after all. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g4ChTL-3c3o)
Post by: piecewise on March 23, 2017, 05:42:28 pm
Post by: Radio Controlled on March 23, 2017, 05:55:10 pm
There's no nukes behind that door.
Allow me to translate:
There's no nukes behind that door~
Post by: Ozarck on March 23, 2017, 06:52:14 pm
Post by: Pancaek on March 23, 2017, 08:37:54 pm
There's no nukes behind that door.You'll excuse me if I don't trust you on this.
Post by: Ozarck on March 23, 2017, 09:30:57 pm
Post by: piecewise on March 24, 2017, 10:03:36 pm
You speak fluent skeleton.There's no nukes behind that door.
Allow me to translate:There's no nukes behind that door~
Post by: Radio Controlled on March 25, 2017, 05:21:11 am
You speak fluent skeleton.There's no nukes behind that door.
Allow me to translate:There's no nukes behind that door~
Going native for a few years is the best way to learn a new language.
Post by: piecewise on March 26, 2017, 12:06:23 am
Ya enjoying this most recent one?
Cause I am.
Post by: Devastator on March 26, 2017, 12:07:42 am
Post by: piecewise on March 26, 2017, 01:23:52 am
Samurai Jack and the Legion of Flesh-Horrors?Samurai Jack and the TPK more like.
Post by: Xantalos on March 26, 2017, 02:00:40 am
Post by: Radio Controlled on March 26, 2017, 07:25:20 am
Any of you keeping up with the new samurai jack episodes?
Ya enjoying this most recent one?
Cause I am.
Yeah, following along as it airs. It's pretty damn good, though for people who plan to binge watch it later I'd seriously advise to avoid any spoilers whatsoever (the comments above might already be a little risqué). The stakes are higher this season and it's no holds barred, so don't expect things to just revert to status quo at the end of each episode like in the original show.
Spoiler: actual spoilery spoilers (click to show/hide)
Post by: Pancaek on March 26, 2017, 08:53:18 am
Post by: Radio Controlled on March 26, 2017, 08:57:01 am
We could try to adjust the diving suits so that fleshies can get down there as well. Or see about coaxing Barghtor to help, he's a robutt as well.
Post by: NJW2000 on March 26, 2017, 08:57:19 am
They could even blow the door open for you.
By the way, a Deep user should try and create a cavitation bubble. It'd be pretty deadly in combat, especially in liquids.
Post by: piecewise on March 26, 2017, 09:34:58 am
Do we have radios or another form of long range communication in Dig? Or am I going to have to leg it all the way up to the bore to get some help with the (maybe)notnukedoor?We have radios but there's a big fucking ball of worms and rock blocking your signal currently. If you swim off to the side a bit, you should get a signal.
Post by: Ozarck on March 26, 2017, 07:41:14 pm
Do we have radios or another form of long range communication in Dig? Or am I going to have to leg it all the way up to the bore to get some help with the (maybe)notnukedoor?We have radios but there's a big fucking ball of worms and rock blocking your signal currently. If you swim off to the side a bit, you should get a signal.
Why don't you go ahead and expedite that. We're back to two people active outside the Bore.
Post by: Radio Controlled on March 29, 2017, 12:59:47 pm
Quote
It doesn't have anime eyes or anything but [...] its not horribly grotesque or anything.
>Implying that anime eyes aren't horribly grotesque on their own.
Post by: NJW2000 on April 03, 2017, 04:41:06 pm
Bore might be feeling a little impatient. Unless we plan to fight the worms, how about we leave pancaek behind, and he follow the cable behind us when ready?
Post by: Radio Controlled on April 03, 2017, 04:48:56 pm
I don't think him following the cables would really work out given that each square is multiple hours of digging. He'd be stranded probably (though being a robutt at least he won't die of exposure).
Post by: NJW2000 on April 05, 2017, 05:54:48 pm
Moving ever on, I think I may need the entirety of Tony's remaining body. But I can replace everything I take, possibly with a new tag added!
Post by: Radio Controlled on April 07, 2017, 09:03:07 am
Would it be possible to let Verne die, then just put him back in his original body? The poison will still be there, but since he's a zombie at that point I don't know if that'll still be a problem.
You could do that, yes. Though he'll be radioactive and poisonous.
So yeah, we better stick to the current plan and put you in Tony's body, lest you radiate everybody constantly (might have to get some containment for the soon-to-be corpse, in fact, or dump it to be safe).
Post by: NJW2000 on April 07, 2017, 09:07:09 am
Post by: Ozarck on April 07, 2017, 09:17:45 am
Post by: piecewise on April 07, 2017, 09:21:49 am
Got answer from pw:The radiation would be minor, but his body fluids would be toxic so if he got injured he might poison people around him if they got splashed. But only if there's skin contact, and the poision effect would be minor.Would it be possible to let Verne die, then just put him back in his original body? The poison will still be there, but since he's a zombie at that point I don't know if that'll still be a problem.You could do that, yes. Though he'll be radioactive and poisonous.
So yeah, we better stick to the current plan and put you in Tony's body, lest you radiate everybody constantly (might have to get some containment for the soon-to-be corpse, in fact, or dump it to be safe).
Just don't do anything that involves taking in his bodily fluids.
Oh and make sure to preserve him
Post by: Radio Controlled on April 07, 2017, 10:09:54 am
Got answer from pw:The radiation would be minor, but his body fluids would be toxic so if he got injured he might poison people around him if they got splashed. But only if there's skin contact, and the poision effect would be minor.Would it be possible to let Verne die, then just put him back in his original body? The poison will still be there, but since he's a zombie at that point I don't know if that'll still be a problem.You could do that, yes. Though he'll be radioactive and poisonous.
So yeah, we better stick to the current plan and put you in Tony's body, lest you radiate everybody constantly (might have to get some containment for the soon-to-be corpse, in fact, or dump it to be safe).
Just don't do anything that involves taking in his bodily fluids.
Oh and make sure to preserve him
In that case: NJW, would you prefer to hang on to your old body? If yes, Joshua could choke Verne out from lvl.3 and then immediately put his spirit back, minimizing damage to the body.
Post by: NJW2000 on April 07, 2017, 02:14:49 pm
I'd only prefer Verne's old body if I'd be a zombie in either case.
But Tony is on ice, while Verne's completely poisoned, which might make a difference.
So I'd rather use Tony's body if it made me... fresher.
Post by: piecewise on April 07, 2017, 07:38:50 pm
I'd have to be "preserved" according to PW.Either can be preserved. The point is that because the body isn't alive, its gonna start rotting and that will render it unusable after a while. Grab some chem 3 and you can embalm it to stop that.
I'd only prefer Verne's old body if I'd be a zombie in either case.
But Tony is on ice, while Verne's completely poisoned, which might make a difference.
So I'd rather use Tony's body if it made me... fresher.
Post by: Ozarck on April 07, 2017, 10:25:53 pm
Post by: Egan_BW on April 07, 2017, 10:31:05 pm
Post by: Ozarck on April 07, 2017, 11:08:31 pm
I don't care what NJW does with Toxic Pete.
Though, the best solution would be to get some deep and some weird materials and live on, as he is, forever a health risk to those around him, constantly in danger of damaging sensitive equipment, and routinely losing hair, skin, teeth and other bits around the Bore or in fights.
Post by: Devastator on April 07, 2017, 11:41:52 pm
Post by: NJW2000 on April 08, 2017, 04:00:14 am
Thinking about it, if I'm radioactive, wouldn't that kill microorganisms and fungi?
Evidently the solution here is to consume more toxins...
I like the "toxic blood" perk too. Definitely Verne.
Yeah, most efficient thing would be to get a new character with more efficient stats. Or two of them. Or hell, why not six? But even the degradation of my body appeals to me. Something about DIG's system makes me want to carry the torch of transhumanism.
Post by: Radio Controlled on April 08, 2017, 07:46:28 am
Post by: Toaster on April 10, 2017, 07:57:09 pm
Post by: piecewise on April 10, 2017, 08:51:24 pm
How does getting knowledge work again? Just action "lol get me sum noleeg?"Its gonna be handed out at the end of our current hijinks in this area. It works kinda like tokens in ER, where you get more for doing things. So like finding the moth will get oz's character's some if they had anything to get it for.
Post by: syvarris on April 11, 2017, 02:16:58 pm
Since it'll probably come up: can Sif's body be repaired into decent-enough condition, or will we have to find a replacement head?
If it's the latter, would a lvl.2 deep sea ball (deep 2/smooth 4/Organic 4) suffice?
Oh, you better not. I've spent the whole game trying to get out of that body, and you have plenty of time to obtain a superior one. Just take some otherwise worthless storeroom metal and make something out of that, and then use all the wonderful tags contained within the human body for whatever. That way, it's a win-win.
Post by: Devastator on April 11, 2017, 03:31:24 pm
((Oh, you'll have to sort out getting your weapon back. I didn't figure the vultures would be quite so quick.))
Post by: Radio Controlled on April 12, 2017, 06:29:03 am
Since it'll probably come up: can Sif's body be repaired into decent-enough condition, or will we have to find a replacement head?Oh, you better not. I've spent the whole game trying to get out of that body, and you have plenty of time to obtain a superior one. Just take some otherwise worthless storeroom metal and make something out of that, and then use all the wonderful tags contained within the human body for whatever. That way, it's a win-win.
If it's the latter, would a lvl.2 deep sea ball (deep 2/smooth 4/Organic 4) suffice?
Lucky me then that you're in no position to make demands, mr. disembodied ghost :P
But seriously, given the deep sea heat level there is right now I don't think it'll take all that long before something tries to eat your soul (or attack mine while working). Moreover, there's other things that I already promised people I'd help with (building reinforced suits to send backup down, build those clawgloves, a still to prevent Verne from falling apart, to name a few), and if I put you into a patched-up body now there's nothing preventing us from then transferring you again later. That'll also give us (or Engie, should he return) the time to construct a really good body instead of rushing things now.
Finally, did Sif ever mention his wish for a better body to Joshua in-game? I know you've mentioned it before, but I'm unsure if my character was ever around to hear that.
FAKEDIT: wait, didn't midjag try to build a terminator at one point? Might have been during the old build system though, so he probably didn't finish it.
Post by: Ozarck on April 12, 2017, 07:33:05 am
Nameles is always up for physically tearing someone's head off. He'll start a collection.Since it'll probably come up: can Sif's body be repaired into decent-enough condition, or will we have to find a replacement head?
If it's the latter, would a lvl.2 deep sea ball (deep 2/smooth 4/Organic 4) suffice?
Oh, you better not. I've spent the whole game trying to get out of that body, and you have plenty of time to obtain a superior one. Just take some otherwise worthless storeroom metal and make something out of that, and then use all the wonderful tags contained within the human body for whatever. That way, it's a win-win.
Post by: syvarris on April 12, 2017, 01:07:39 pm
Oh, I just remembered that the doc says a body is completely destroyed if it takes twice its body stat in damage. So you don't have a choice.
Post by: NJW2000 on April 12, 2017, 01:09:50 pm
Post by: Egan_BW on April 12, 2017, 01:51:29 pm
Post by: syvarris on April 12, 2017, 03:33:48 pm
Totally up for assembling a body out of cardboard and poison for Sifbeet.
Go for it. It would probably still be tougher than his original body.
Post by: Radio Controlled on April 15, 2017, 05:32:50 am
This thing is from lvl. 4. Previously, a lvl. 3 monster took away about half my mindpoints in a single turn, and I'm not an iota more powerful since then. Suffice it to say, I'm not confident in our chances for reliably taking this thing on, even if I can get in a surprise attack. Sifeebt has some transcend (only 65 vs 90 of the monster), but no weapon, so at best he can be a meatshield.
There might be an alternative to combat though, but even then speed will be of the essence. Also, I don't think you answered my question: did Sif ever mentioned his body switching wishes to Joshua?
Post by: Egan_BW on April 15, 2017, 02:09:02 pm
Post by: syvarris on April 15, 2017, 02:51:45 pm
Also, I don't think you answered my question: did Sif ever mentioned his body switching wishes to Joshua?
Not to my memory, no.
Post by: Radio Controlled on April 16, 2017, 03:39:24 am
Hmm. Maybe you could go grab sif's soul and tie it to a post beside the bore's brain, which would repel predators.
Deep sea monsters can still operate and spawn inside the bore (eg the very first monster, a lvl. 1, appeared right inside the bore), the bore just makes it harder for them to notice spirits. Perhaps putting him very close to the brain could work by maximizing the effect, but the bore brain also repels ghosts, so he'd be like a flag in a gale.
Post by: Egan_BW on April 16, 2017, 01:09:44 pm
Even if they can overcome it, sea creatures will still have to fight the same pressure that pushes souls out. At the least, that gives you more time to grab his soul or whack the creature.
Post by: NJW2000 on April 17, 2017, 02:01:01 pm
Post by: Ozarck on April 17, 2017, 05:13:00 pm
sordSure, but only if you give up that sword you got so we can retcon you into getting on the crawler back when he left.
I haven't been paying attention to that thread, but apparently Nameless got out of the bore and into some space where it can talk to a giant moth? Brownian motion brings Coinflip to the same place, if that's physically possible.Spoiler: "Coinflip" Rayes (click to show/hide)
What? No. My action when we left the bore explicitly stated that if anyone was coming they had to do so that round. Just because I found something neat, now anyone can beeline to the location?
Post by: Egan_BW on April 17, 2017, 05:19:59 pm
Post by: Ozarck on April 17, 2017, 05:33:32 pm
I'd assumed that you were just outside the bore.I traveled to nearly the end of the cavern complex we are in. And then down a magma tube. The cavern was described as big enough that we couldn't see any walls from the bore, several times.
Post by: Devastator on April 27, 2017, 01:05:27 am
Post by: Ozarck on April 27, 2017, 03:28:37 pm
Post by: Radio Controlled on April 27, 2017, 03:38:20 pm
Post by: Egan_BW on April 27, 2017, 03:39:11 pm
Post by: NJW2000 on April 27, 2017, 03:41:56 pm
Post by: NAV on April 30, 2017, 02:41:29 pm
Spoiler: A couple better renders of the drill (click to show/hide)
Post by: Radio Controlled on April 30, 2017, 02:44:50 pm
Why don't you join us, since you seem to be following the game? We could use more good adventurers!
Post by: NAV on April 30, 2017, 02:53:05 pm
Post by: Radio Controlled on April 30, 2017, 03:03:38 pm
Post by: Ozarck on April 30, 2017, 05:43:25 pm
Post by: Egan_BW on April 30, 2017, 05:57:11 pm
Post by: syvarris on May 01, 2017, 11:49:41 pm
Post by: Ozarck on May 02, 2017, 05:06:22 pm
Post by: syvarris on May 02, 2017, 07:25:03 pm
Post by: Ozarck on May 02, 2017, 09:15:05 pm
Post by: Devastator on May 03, 2017, 02:46:32 am
Spawned, cooked some food, made a friend, drank some booze, passed out, dreamed of Bloodborne, woke up yelled at someone for making a weapon out of a corpse, mysteriously disappeared while the bore was full of poison.
Don't forget "Stole a Deathless Sabre." Mind you, while the deathless was dead, but even so.
Post by: Egan_BW on May 03, 2017, 10:47:59 am
Post by: killerhellhound on May 04, 2017, 06:22:13 am
Post by: Radio Controlled on May 11, 2017, 08:19:01 am
After making some moonshine bolt the still to a wall as we get underwaySpoiler: sheet (click to show/hide)
Please try to condense all of your actions into a single post if you can, pw prefers it that way.
Post by: killerhellhound on May 11, 2017, 08:47:21 am
Sorry I'll change itAfter making some moonshine bolt the still to a wall as we get underwaySpoiler: sheet (click to show/hide)
Please try to condense all of your actions into a single post if you can, pw prefers it that way.
Post by: Radio Controlled on May 13, 2017, 04:20:56 am
Post by: NJW2000 on May 13, 2017, 04:25:19 am
In terms of gameplay, I think easy movement along the line of the Bore's progress would be good. Means we wouldn't be stuck waiting for people turn after turn.
Post by: Ozarck on May 13, 2017, 06:44:36 am
I can't really see ease of movement between zones as being realistic within the setting of the game. It's a lot of distance to cover, for one thing. and some of it is perfectly vertical.
Post by: killerhellhound on May 13, 2017, 07:06:20 am
You were stuck waiting for a driver, since your primary pilot had absconded with the crawler to chase butterflies and look at pictures.As long as they have a crawler they should be fine and also if someone is left behind due to the five hours time to drill a square it shouldn't take them that long to catch up
I can't really see ease of movement between zones as being realistic within the setting of the game. It's a lot of distance to cover, for one thing. and some of it is perfectly vertical.
Post by: NJW2000 on May 13, 2017, 07:23:45 am
Post by: Radio Controlled on May 14, 2017, 08:35:57 am
Post by: Ozarck on May 18, 2017, 08:44:36 pm
Post by: Egan_BW on May 18, 2017, 08:47:27 pm
Post by: Ozarck on May 19, 2017, 07:57:11 am
Post by: Tyrant Leviathan on May 19, 2017, 09:56:14 pm
Post by: syvarris on May 19, 2017, 10:40:18 pm
...I try not to talk much about DIG's mechanics, but give your char a higher mind than body, unless they're an engineheart. And max all the stats you intend to use--a stat at 80 is much better than one at 50 and one at 30.
Post by: piecewise on May 22, 2017, 10:15:36 am
...Yeah, he did say no to my Weirdness Distillery, which is the same thing applied to a different tag.I also said no to it because machines are something humans can produce. Weird is supposed to be beyond human.
Post by: Radio Controlled on May 22, 2017, 02:13:09 pm
Hey PW, in the irc it was pointed out that the standard diving suit has natural 10 armor (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=162123.msg7365886#msg7365886) while not giving any penalties (despite being described as heavy/cumbersome) and seemingly no endurance requirement. Is this as it's supposed to be? If yes, the soldier's suit becomes a rather useless item, and everybody basically get free 10 armor at no cost.
Post by: Radio Controlled on May 24, 2017, 05:11:21 am
How the hell would I know what depth to go to? I'm a bloody hamster! Just dive till it seems like I could grab some power.((By the way egan, are you trying to sneakily hide in the backpack, or can I assume Joshua knows he has a hamster hitching a ride?))((I'm not trying to be sneaky about it, but then again I'm not trying to be seen either. Why don't you roll that Find stat of yours?~))
Let's not mince words here: are you or aren't you trying to hide and be sneaky? Normally I wouldn't really care, but if you're gonna dive too deep and explode into monsters (again!) while in my backpack it'd be nice to know what my character knows IC'ly beforehand, so I can toss the backpack before the monsters come out without being meta about it.
As much as I like homages to original Alien movie, I could do without them chestbursting through me on their way into the world. :P
Post by: syvarris on May 24, 2017, 06:28:56 am
Even if Joshua were happening to be facing the right direction while it happened, he's remarkably unobservant, to the point that he couldn't see someone sneaking up on him from directly ahead, so it seems quite doubtful that he could see the hamster even if it were deliberately being quite overt. Which it wasn't.
Good luck~
Post by: killerhellhound on May 24, 2017, 06:46:17 am
Well, a hamster wouldn't be able to climb in a backpack while it was being worn, so he likely climbed in when the backpack was unattended. And hamsters aren't very loud creatures, especially not when they have a very high skill in hiding, so he probably climbed in relatively soundlessly.On the bright side monsters are generally very noticeable so if something starts coming out of your backpack you will probably notice.
Even if Joshua were happening to be facing the right direction while it happened, he's remarkably unobservant, to the point that he couldn't see someone sneaking up on him from directly ahead, so it seems quite doubtful that he could see the hamster even if it were deliberately being quite overt. Which it wasn't.
Good luck~
Post by: Ozarck on May 24, 2017, 06:59:54 am
Post by: piecewise on May 24, 2017, 10:44:06 am
While you're here, care to give your thoughts on the following?ugh.Hey PW, in the irc it was pointed out that the standard diving suit has natural 10 armor (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=162123.msg7365886#msg7365886) while not giving any penalties (despite being described as heavy/cumbersome) and seemingly no endurance requirement. Is this as it's supposed to be? If yes, the soldier's suit becomes a rather useless item, and everybody basically get free 10 armor at no cost.
I feel like turning this into a completely different system.
Post by: syvarris on May 24, 2017, 02:08:54 pm
Post by: Ozarck on May 24, 2017, 02:13:08 pm
In terms of the diving' suit's armor - just make it clunky enough to be inoperable in combat, or cause it to give maluses to move and dodge scores or something.
Post by: The Lupanian on May 24, 2017, 06:18:26 pm
Post by: Egan_BW on May 24, 2017, 06:19:40 pm
Post by: Ozarck on May 24, 2017, 11:24:09 pm
I say just get rid of the diving suits armor, and allow people to wear armor underneath it. As making it unwieldy would basically mean you have to instakill people if you want to do any kind of under water combat.why would we want to do underwater combat? And if we do, why wouldn't we make armor for that purpose?
Post by: Devastator on May 24, 2017, 11:29:30 pm
why would we want to do underwater combat? And if we do, why wouldn't we make armor for that purpose?Because sometimes the things we want to punch happen to be underwater.
Post by: Ozarck on May 24, 2017, 11:52:08 pm
And PW has already said we don't need another Diver.
Post by: Radio Controlled on May 25, 2017, 01:06:32 pm
ugh.
I feel like turning this into a completely different system.
Just take things to the next level and roll dice to generate your systems.
I say, just leave the system as is, and keep editing things as they are brought up, until the system is a giant, unweildly, monstrousity of clunky, absurd, illogical nonsense and collapses into a gaming singularity (names Radio Controlled). Meanwhile, we'll ride the nuke to the inevitable end, waving our hats and shouting "Yeehaw!" as the wind whips through our hair and gravity takes us to our fate.
Well, they do say nukes release a lot of radioactivity...
Post by: Ozarck on May 29, 2017, 07:29:58 pm
Run back to the bore and get on the cannons. Prep and aim but dont fire this round
This is like, the fifth time someone has tried to *aim* the cannons on the Bore *through solid stone*
a) the cannons are immobile and only point directly out to the sides of the Bore
b) the room below is small - this isn't some giant cave complex where the bore can walk about freely on it's legs
c) the Bore is currently parked in a tunnel it dug itself. The cannons are curently facing the tunnel walls, and to turn them, one would have to turn the bore itself, inside it's own tunnel.
situational awareness, people.
I mean, if you really want to, I can have Legs drive the Bore on down into the cave. Then you can shoot the cave paintings everyone seems intent on destroying and looting, amongst other things.
Post by: killerhellhound on May 29, 2017, 11:11:48 pm
Post by: Radio Controlled on May 30, 2017, 03:09:01 am
Post by: Radio Controlled on June 06, 2017, 01:21:29 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e2KVj2vVxUs
[Randroid mode activated]
What is this? Delaying posts for the sake of the slower posters? Oh no no no, this won't do!
Who are they to deny people their right to self-expression? These contemptible reprobates aren't worth the digital ink they spill on their quaint little posts, bereft of initiative and even less vision.
No independent agent should be held back by the tardiness of others. Glory, and profits, are out there for those with the wits to see them and the balls to claim them!
Only in a Free Market of actions can the individual character celebrate his freedom, shake of the second-hander parasites and reap the bounties of the deep!
[Randroid mode deactivated]
((This objectivist drivel inspired by a comic I recently discovered, pretty interesting insight into Rand's life and how it shaped her philosophy: http://activatecomix.com/162.comic))
Post by: Egan_BW on June 06, 2017, 02:11:48 pm
Post by: Devastator on June 06, 2017, 02:38:17 pm
Early bird gets eaten by deepsea worms.
Now you know why I took such a tanky character. I can go first, there can't be anyone else tougher, barring starfish bodies or whatever.
Post by: Ozarck on June 06, 2017, 03:56:51 pm
But undead bodies to not regain Body stat naturally. They are Limited UseTM. Still, the ease with which one is replaced suggests that this is somewhat irrelevant.Early bird gets eaten by deepsea worms.
Now you know why I took such a tanky character. I can go first, there can't be anyone else tougher, barring starfish bodies or whatever.
Post by: Devastator on June 06, 2017, 03:59:50 pm
Post by: killerhellhound on June 06, 2017, 07:54:31 pm
(You sound more like Andrew Ryan to me)https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e2KVj2vVxUs
[Randroid mode activated]
What is this? Delaying posts for the sake of the slower posters? Oh no no no, this won't do!
Who are they to deny people their right to self-expression? These contemptible reprobates aren't worth the digital ink they spill on their quaint little posts, bereft of initiative and even less vision.
No independent agent should be held back by the tardiness of others. Glory, and profits, are out there for those with the wits to see them and the balls to claim them!
Only in a Free Market of actions can the individual character celebrate his freedom, shake of the second-hander parasites and reap the bounties of the deep!
[Randroid mode deactivated]
((This objectivist drivel inspired by a comic I recently discovered, pretty interesting insight into Rand's life and how it shaped her philosophy: http://activatecomix.com/162.comic))
Post by: Radio Controlled on June 07, 2017, 05:38:04 am
Which makes sense, given that he was a Randroid himself!
After all, 'Randroid' just means being an advocate/parrot of Ayn Rand's philosophies, which Ryan certainly was (the name kinda gives it away).
Post by: Imic on October 12, 2017, 07:01:28 am
Post by: Ozarck on October 12, 2017, 07:22:24 am
Post by: Radio Controlled on October 12, 2017, 07:28:58 am
...Nope.
I've had enough of this freaking system and the general loss of interest and meandering. Every time I think of posting I am filled with dread. SO NO!
But you're gonna get underground adventures you mother fuckers. I'm gonna shove them right up your associated orifices. Just you wait...just you wait...
There is light at the end of this bore tunnel. There is hope...
Or you can join our group in cabal which is currently stuck in an underground tunnel looking for treasure. Underground adventures for assorted motherfuckers.