Bay 12 Games Forum
Other Projects => Other Games => Topic started by: chrismdp on April 02, 2017, 10:09:11 am
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Hey all,
EDIT: Ealdorlight didn't hit its funding goal and development is paused for the moment - see this update for details (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/chrismdp/ealdorlight/posts/1930460).
Here's the campaign page: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/chrismdp/ealdorlight
Thought I'd mention Ealdorlight (http://ealdorlight.com) as it may well appeal to DF fans...
Some detail: single player RPG set in a medieval kingdom where magic is rare and mysterious. The game has turn-based combat with a realistic damage system that models bones, muscles and organs. It also procedurally generates a new kingdom history, society and people every game. Each time you play you'll meet different characters with different backstories.
You discover at the beginning of the game that you were found lost as a small child, and the identity of your real family is unknown. Soon after, you meet the Ealdorlight, a legendary supernatural being not seen for centuries, who tells of darkness in the kingdom and invites you to take the King's place. You must leave your adopted home and travel the land, gaining connections, title and influence in order to discover your real family, and to win the throne: through honour, intrigue, or force, or a combination!
(http://assets-revelationgames-co.s3.eu-west-2.amazonaws.com/ealdorlight/images/thumb/ealdorlight-kickstarter-18.jpg)
(http://assets-revelationgames-co.s3.eu-west-2.amazonaws.com/ealdorlight/images/thumb/ealdorlight-kickstarter-4.jpg)
Some concept images:
(http://assets-revelationgames-co.s3.eu-west-2.amazonaws.com/ealdorlight/images/el-child-concept.jpg)
(http://assets-revelationgames-co.s3.eu-west-2.amazonaws.com/ealdorlight/images/el-map-concept.jpg)
(http://assets-revelationgames-co.s3.eu-west-2.amazonaws.com/ealdorlight/images/el-forest-concept.jpg)
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Looks interesting PTW. By the way I think you have a spelling error on your website ('strangle' instead of 'strange dialect'). It'd be kinda good to know more about the actual 'flow' of the game - is it going to be similar to Pillars of Eternity/Baldurs Gate where you're wandering around doing quests in real time between Turn based fights or is it something different?
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Thanks for spotting the typo - fixed :)
The game will alternative between visiting particular locations and longer travel via the map view (a concept of which is shown), which will take a realistic amount of (speeded-up) time to move between places. Time is a resource in this game, and the history will keep on generating as you play the game (unlike Sol Trader, where history was only generated before the game's start). If you spend months travelling around, time will pass, characters will live and die and opportunities will come and go...
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I backed Sol Trader, so I was aware of Ealdorlight thanks to the last backer update, but from the description I got the impression it was more of a traditional/linear RPG rather than a "living world" kind of thing, so I wasn't interested. Nice to see it's more ambitious than that. I'll be backing day one. The combat system looks particularly exciting.
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I backed Sol Trader, so I was aware of Ealdorlight thanks to the last backer update, but from the description I got the impression it was more of a traditional/linear RPG rather than a "living world" kind of thing, so I wasn't interested. Nice to see it's more ambitious than that. I'll be backing day one. The combat system looks particularly exciting.
Thanks! Did you form that impression from the private questionnaire I sent out?
I've honed the game summary hugely since then, in no small part thanks to all the feedback! :)
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Good to hear, it's nice to know it's a bit different than just standard RPG + different health system.
One thing I'd say, and a particular bugbear of mine is the 'floating message log' - please, please, please put it in a proper docked UI window. It's pretty hard to read and it looks like it'll be vital to gameplay.
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Good to hear, it's nice to know it's a bit different than just standard RPG + different health system.
One thing I'd say, and a particular bugbear of mine is the 'floating message log' - please, please, please put it in a proper docked UI window. It's pretty hard to read and it looks like it'll be vital to gameplay.
The GUI is only a prototype right now: don't worry, I'll make sure that it's easy enough to read, and to go back to earlier messages should you need to. Thanks for the feedback!
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Looks interesting. How is character growth gonna look like?
Aka will you start the game as a regular person, how strong can you get, will there be magical stuff or something to boost your character past human levels?
Will 5 guys always be able to beat 1 with equal equipment.
I am interested in knowing stuff like that.
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ptw
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The name confused me - I thought it was another game in the Eador series.
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Looks interesting. How is character growth gonna look like?
Aka will you start the game as a regular person, how strong can you get, will there be magical stuff or something to boost your character past human levels?
Will 5 guys always be able to beat 1 with equal equipment.
I am interested in knowing stuff like that.
You start as a regular person. The growth centres around your identity: I want to explore the question: "what would you be capable of if you truly knew who you are?" Therefore finding out your true history will be very important to allow you to become more powerful. Same with items: the knowledge of a sword's past deeds will allow you to unlock its power. It's very low fantasy though: no potions or instant healing. Magical effects are incredibly rare and treated with suspicion.
You'd have to be a very skilled fighter to be able to take down 5 others. Death isn't the only outcome of a battle though: you might spend six months in captivity for example...
The name confused me - I thought it was another game in the Eador series.
You're the second person to say that. Very difficult to choose a name these days that has no connotations!
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I don't do RPGs much these days, but this does look interesting. If nothing else I'll pass it along to my friends when the kickstarter gets going.
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You'd have to be a very skilled fighter to be able to take down 5 others. Death isn't the only outcome of a battle though: you might spend six months in captivity for example...
That's something I think hasn't really been explored in games before - losing a battle without dying. Captivity is one way about it, losing all your stuff/getting robbed is another, having to recover from serious injury etc would all be more interesting than just 'die and reload'.
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That's something I think hasn't really been explored in games before - losing a battle without dying. Captivity is one way about it, losing all your stuff/getting robbed is another, having to recover from serious injury etc would all be more interesting than just 'die and reload'.
Yes, exactly. As long as the story is continued in a interesting or challenging way, people hopefully won't die-reload too much. Losing might actually make you better or be useful, too.
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People do tend to learn more from failures than they do successes, which is not something often reflected in games. Perhaps that could factor into it?
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I've some ideas for how this could work for sure...
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People do tend to learn more from failures than they do successes, which is not something often reflected in games. Perhaps that could factor into it?
Agreed, I think there are two major points with this:
1) You don't want to have it where experimenting and failure just means potential added tedium. So a lot of hack n slash RPG style games (which I know this isn't) have relatively low penalties for dying, with the main thing just being extra tedium. Similarly, if failures just mean a completely negative outcome, then it's never going to be fun however if they're not punishing enough, you'll just get people not really care what the result of each encounter/whatever is. One of the things you could do in the elderscrolls games was basically farm thief skills by getting put in prison a ton of times for instance.
2) You'd need to have it full ironman mode otherwise people will just reload to get a positive outcome. I think this would be great, as long as death/really negative stuff isn't solely down to RNG.
Really, I think if you develop this idea it could be something truly, truly special in the gaming world.
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Sounds cool.
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Quick update: New screenshots released in advance of the Kickstarter, which is going out on 6th June
(http://assets-revelationgames-co.s3.eu-west-2.amazonaws.com/ealdorlight/images/ealdorlight-kickstarter-4.jpg)
(http://assets-revelationgames-co.s3.eu-west-2.amazonaws.com/ealdorlight/images/ealdorlight-kickstarter-20.jpg)
What do you think so far?
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Nice look to the wilderness. Are those from the player's perspective or just general screenshots?
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The top one is a player perspective.
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The Kickstarter is now just around the corner, so I've updated the first post to show a couple of the latest screenshots.
Here's a super-secret preview link just for you, because, well, why not! :D
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/chrismdp/460088710?token=b18de00d
Any and all feedback on the campaign welcome, either here on in-page on the campaign.
Thanks! :)
Chris
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This has probably been said in the comments on the campaign, but I don't know what I think of the extra character creation options in some of the later tiers... I'm really not a fan of backer-only in-game rewards for single-player games. Cosmetics, sure. Those I don't mind too much. But things that have tangible effects... it just feels like I'm missing something.
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Hmm - I probably need to be much more specific about this on the campaign.
I'm planning on this being an extra two outfits the character can choose as their starting clothes which match the sword: no gameplay effects, only cosmetic.
Does that make more sense/sound better?
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Oh yeah, that makes perfect sense, and sounds a lot better. My two cents would probably be to word it something like "Exclusive Sword of the Second Sun and choice of matching outfits at character creation (purely cosmetic enhancement)".
"Character Creation Option" just sounds a lot weightier than it actually is.
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Yeah, definitely reword that. The idea is just fine, the wording made me think it was more substantial than it is.
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Just noticed you reworded it on the campaign. Looks great to me
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Thanks! Did you noticed the new boxed copy reward?
Looking forward to getting the campaign underway tomorrow!
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...and we're off! Excited to see where this ends up!
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/chrismdp/ealdorlight
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And backed!
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Backed as well! Alpha access is incredibly tempting so I'll probably be upping my pledge before the campaign is over.
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Watched the Kickstarter video and I find your determination to set the game in the middle distance to be both incredibly bold, and something which I can't, ultimately, back.
Did anyone look over your pitch before you posted it? It doesn't bode well for the quality of the writing in the game, unless you're bringing on a writer.
Has to be said, I am still pretty pissed off about Sol Trader but I'm sure I'll talk the feelings away eventually.
Also, procedurally generated but you start every game as a young commoner who comes of age to discovers that their past is not what they thought it was and that their true... dear lord...why not a procedurally generated past as well, because you just described most CRPGs from ten years ago. I see no logic in wanting to procedurally generate NPC characters' backstory (because it worked out so well in Sol Trader when that was your focus)(that was sarcasm, by the way) while the heart of the story is one of the laziest tropes possible.
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There is a certain extent where I must ask WHY is this procedurally generated?
And you might be going "Well, it is just one way to do it" and indeed, though it is touted as a feature.
The issue I am having is I see nothing dynamic about the generation system. Hopefully I am wrong.
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Gotta say, I'm pretty much agreeing with the above two posters. There are some decent ideas but it feels like everything beyond the basic concept is just sort of shoved in there. There's not much to it besides "it's a fantasy game... And it's procedural like my space game. And it has things that fantasy games have". There needs to be compelling gameplay elements to it – a nice damage system doesn't cut it if there's not also a great combat system for it to supplement. And learning stuff about your gear is cool, but that's not enough to carry a game either. Learning stuff about your own background, on the other hand, seems liable to hobble playability of the early game, and players ability to invest in a character compared to building the character up yourself.
Ultimately, the standards for fantasy/medieval games are higher than sci-fi, and the story elements are also utterly lacking. Even a blank slate (like Mount and Blade) would be better, as long as there was a more enjoyable slate to play on. For a story, there should be set-piece events within the procedural framework, things that may or may not occur that use scripted content spice up a core gameplay loop that (as described so far) will otherwise either be very short or (more likely) bland and repetitive.
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There is a certain extent where I must ask WHY is this procedurally generated?
And you might be going "Well, it is just one way to do it" and indeed, though it is touted as a feature.
The issue I am having is I see nothing dynamic about the generation system. Hopefully I am wrong.
I'm a bit dubious about 'procedural for the sake of procedural' games, but there does seem to be some method behind this. Items seem to get stronger the longer they've persisted, so having a 'history' could make for some really cool moments (picking up a sword, realising it was used in the massacre of x in the year n and that because of that it adds bleeding damage because of that or something). As long as it ties in and isn't just a way of filling out NPCs and locations then I'm all for it.
I also understand the 'common' starting role - it's difficult to tell a story if you don't have a similar thread to start from.
My only issue with this is that it looks a bit...generic medieval RPG. They're great if done well (everyone loves swords and sorcery), but I honestly feel that this could benefit from going a bit different in terms of theme and setting. From what I've seen, nothing seems to carry it enough to make up for generic setting and story. Even if it just went to a sort of Morrowind level of weird, that'd be enough - just this looks like Super-European Generic Fantasy.
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I'm a bit dubious about 'procedural for the sake of procedural' games, but there does seem to be some method behind this. Items seem to get stronger the longer they've persisted, so having a 'history' could make for some really cool moments (picking up a sword, realising it was used in the massacre of x in the year n and that because of that it adds bleeding damage because of that or something). As long as it ties in and isn't just a way of filling out NPCs and locations then I'm all for it.
That's exactly what I'm going for.
I also understand the 'common' starting role - it's difficult to tell a story if you don't have a similar thread to start from.
One of the hardest things to wrestle with in the design of this game is to figure out how to make a compelling story work within a procedural world. Sol Trader has a go at it with the quest structure, but I want to go much deeper in this game with layered quests that make sense. The hard bit will be making the beginning, middle and end fit well together as a story, using set-piece quest lines to help the player advance.
My only issue with this is that it looks a bit...generic medieval RPG.
There's some interesting world building ideas that I've not fully fleshed out to do with identity that the items stuff above hints at. The aim is an RPG world that people can relate to and feel comfortable with, which then twists reality slightly based on your knowledge of the past.
Hope that gives a bit more insight into where I'm going!
Chris
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Learning stuff about your own background, on the other hand, seems liable to hobble playability of the early game, and players ability to invest in a character compared to building the character up yourself.
I'm going for both. You are learning about your real parents and ancestry, rather than your own personal background. When you start a game you get to generate a character and make your life choices all the way through to early adulthood just like in Sol Trader, with the exception that they'll get to choose things like hair colour and their appearance. This should allow players to invest in their character, whilst preserving the progression mechanics.
I'm now painfully aware this isn't really mentioned in the Kickstarter, so I'll fix that :)
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A quick update to say that I did a livestream preview of some of the combat last Friday:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oQTBf-xZ2Aw
There are more previews coming this week!
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So we now have a playable combat demo! There's a download link, along with plenty more information about how the combat works on this update:
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/chrismdp/ealdorlight/posts/1920007
Let me know what you think!
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Downloaded it, but probably won't have a chance to try it out until the weekend. Looking forward to checking it out, though!
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Ok, got to play with it for a few minutes.
A few comments:
The system seems interesting, and I can tell there is a lot going on. I like the complexity of the options.
The bad thing is, I don't know what is going on. There is this neat black box saying the last thing that happened to my opponent, but it doesn't always update. And it doesn't say what happens to me. I died without realizing that I was badly injured. Lots of white text flashed by, but it was hard to tell what meant what before it was gone, especially since the black box was more descriptive and I often paid more attention to it.
Also, the demo doesn't really say anything about the numbers for the characters. I see there are three bars in at the top of each character's stats, but no info on what each means. Also, no real descriptions in the demo of what to do or what causes what.
What causes an attack to be unopposed?
How far can I move and still attack?
What is the general probability of a given attack hitting? It tells me the damage I'm likely to do, I think, although one of my punch options was at -6.5 so...no idea if that means it'd do no damage or just a little. And no information to tell me if going for, say, a counter is more likely to be a good move over a basic stab to the torso.
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If you press ESC and click help, then there's some text which might give you some insight into the system... any follow up details you need let me know!
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Ah, I missed that the first time.
Still don't know what pn, bl (bleed?), and fr (fright?) are. Could use some info on that in the Help screen.
Second test went better overall, although the game froze on me after a turn or two of my opponent running away and me chasing him. Had to kill it in the task manager.
As a general improvement, I'd like to see some parries/blocks/dodges in place. That'd make it visually more interesting and more obvious when you hit or miss. Different color text on miss/hit/severity of hit could also be good. I managed to poke the guy's eye out, but the game didn't give any satisfying reaction to such an event. Just some more white text. Not a criticism of the combat demo, more a suggestion for the future.
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Yes there's stacks to do to improve it. I never planned to release a demo and had to work very hard to get it anything near ready to show so there are lots of rough edges.
Thanks for the feedback! Will add some more help text for Pain, Blood Loss and Fear.
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No worries. System certainly has good potential!
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So in case you've not seen there is now a night mode for the demo (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/chrismdp/ealdorlight/posts/1922946), complete with interactive scenery...
I'm also running a Thunderclap (https://www.thunderclap.it/projects/58930-get-ealdorlight-funded) for tomorrow afternoon, so if you'd like to see the campaign funded, and don't mind donating a tweet or Facebook post to the campaign, sign up here (https://www.thunderclap.it/projects/58930-get-ealdorlight-funded).
Thanks!
(https://assets-revelationgames-co.s3.amazonaws.com/ealdorlight/shared-online/Beginning.gif)
(https://assets-revelationgames-co.s3.amazonaws.com/ealdorlight/shared-online/DemoFirePit.gif)
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"Back a new kind of RPG, with procedural storytelling & realistic strategic combat. Just one week left!"
It's me again, your biggest fan. Tried the demo. It's basically Roguelike combat where time advances every time the player moves (or clicks). So as far as I could tell there's no combat rounds or initiative, like you'd see in a realtime-with-pause style system (eg Baldurs Gate or UFO Afterlight - UFO:A was actually a decent game, unlike the two previous games), and no action points per character, like you'd have in turn-based system (eg Jagged Alliance). Options to strike, feint and counter, but not defend, or not that I could find. You're going to suffer if you intend to make the combat remotely realistic if you persist with the current system where everyone moves simultaneously after the player moves, and I didn't see the option to call in airstrikes so I assume you mean tactical combat. Which brings me back to my original point: words matter, particularly in something you're attempting to market as an RPG.
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*waves* :)
It's basically Roguelike combat where time advances every time the player moves (or clicks). So as far as I could tell there's no combat rounds or initiative, like you'd see in a realtime-with-pause style system (eg Baldurs Gate or UFO Afterlight - UFO:A was actually a decent game, unlike the two previous games), and no action points per character, like you'd have in turn-based system (eg Jagged Alliance). Options to strike, feint and counter, but not defend, or not that I could find.
That's correct. There are no rounds or action points - faster characters will get to take more turns. Defending or blocking against attacks is instinctive and therefore implicit within the system, although not all the animations are in yet. There are also improvements to make in how it communicates to the player what's going on, and I'm planning to replace the characters and animations for the full game.
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So if you attack a faster character they'll attack you back twice? And a really fast enemy will attack you three times for every one of your attacks? Hopefully I misunderstood.
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So if you attack a faster character they'll attack you back twice? And a really fast enemy will attack you three times for every one of your attacks? Hopefully I misunderstood.
Isn't that exactly how roguelike combat works? I know in Crawl if I am super slow I might be hit 3-4 times by a faster enemy before I can respond
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So if you attack a faster character they'll attack you back twice? And a really fast enemy will attack you three times for every one of your attacks? Hopefully I misunderstood.
A character that's twice as fast as you will attack you back twice, yes. But that's really very fast and a huge advantage. If a character is only 10% faster and they make the exact same attacks as you (different moves take different amounts of time) then they will get a free attack every 10 times you both attack. At the moment, you can tell how close a character is to a new turn by checking the circle underneath them (this UI may change).
It's being able to both react and move faster. Your weapon weight will make you slower, but your strength will offset this effect. Your reflexes will make you slightly faster (but not very much).
Hope that explains things a little more.
Isn't that exactly how roguelike combat works? I know in Crawl if I am super slow I might be hit 3-4 times by a faster enemy before I can respond
Yes, but as speed increases give a big advantage in the Ealdorlight system, they will be toned down from this level.
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Yeah that makes a lot more sense. When playing the demo it just looked like everyone was attacking simultaneously - but they were all basically the same character type I was playing so I suppose that would be accurate.
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So the campaign is done. Didn't hit the goal, but a number of positives and lessons to draw out of the experience.
I'm running a very short survey to decide what's next for Ealdorlight. Please would you mind filling it out? I'm especially interested if you didn't actually back the project!
Fill in survey and help decide what's next for Ealdorlight and me (https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1ZWT5-4F2JzeINDeA6Ns1aaWLWomA2pgthz8hi-wmQs8/edit#responses)
I'm going to pause work on Ealdorlight to figure out what I should do. Without budget for a proper team, I'm not going to be able to do the game justice in its current form. I may choose to cut design, scope and the art requirements right down to a simpler game.
In the meantime, my game development time will be focused on Sol Trader. The core history generation and AI engine will always be shared between the two games, and I was always planning on improving this further during the development of Ealdorlight. Working on Sol Trader's core engine makes it a better game, serves my existing Kickstarter backers, and solidifies the platform on which I can build Ealdorlight in future.
Thanks Bay12 forums! for all the support, shoutouts, discussion, etc. It's meant the world to me!
Thanks
Chris
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I noted this in the survey, and true to my response, here's my deanonymization about presentation and what's possible.
I think you spent too much time focusing on "this is what I'd like the game to do", as opposed to "this is what can be done". The entire campaign focused on "you'll be able to do this", and "procedural generation that", and "here's the core gameloops!". I like following along on development more than most people outside this forum, but that wasn't really development... it's more something like a wish-list/high-level design doc, and nothing else. It didn't capture attention, and it lost some of its appeal once people started pointing out the problems in this thread.
I realize this is likely a consequence of not having development done very far, but something that would be interesting is different stories that come from it. One of our main concerns is superfluous/unnecessary procedural generation - sell us on it. One character traveled to discover his parents were an exiled Lord and Lady, and using the influence of his family ties he perpetuated a revolt to reclaim the throne. Another character discovered her parents were routine thieves in a large bandit group, but she managed to talk her way into the bandit group using their names. While there, she joined a campaign to steal the holy artifact not-Excalibur, which she pocketed for herself and used to claim the throne via divine right. etc, etc.
Just like Boatsmurdered has been one of the best marketing campaigns for Dwarf Fortress, get the skeleton in enough to create stories you can use to sell us on the game.
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I agree. There was a lot of focus on high level 'This is what I want to do' and some very specific information on the combat (which is indeed fun), but not a lot on the overall game experience.
Having more of that history and the stories possible in the game shown to people would help drum up interest. Procedural generation is nice, but as we all know it can leave you with a giant unfun mess if not done properly. Showing how the procedural stuff is going to be fun and interesting is an important draw. Otherwise it just sort of sits there being a buzzword that people are skeptical of.
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I think you spent too much time focusing on "this is what I'd like the game to do", as opposed to "this is what can be done". The entire campaign focused on "you'll be able to do this", and "procedural generation that", and "here's the core gameloops!". I like following along on development more than most people outside this forum, but that wasn't really development... it's more something like a wish-list/high-level design doc, and nothing else. It didn't capture attention, and it lost some of its appeal once people started pointing out the problems in this thread.
Yes, I get that now. I need more "game" rather than just fluffy ideas. It's a bit of a catch-22 because I need money (dedicated time and team) to make the game what I want it to be.
So whilst I build out the core of Sol Trader further, I'll also be taking Ealdorlight closer to a prototype. It's going to have to be part-time work, but I'll do what I can :D
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I thought about it a bit more after I posted that... here's why I didn't back. It's a mix of only having ideas and the price.
The vast majority was ideas and planning, and I don't tend to toss more than $10 towards videogame Kickstarters - especially when they're floating on just an idea . There's a little bit of wiggle room depending on the creator's pedigree and how much it seems like they know what they're talking about, but for reference, the only two projects to pull $20 out of me were Project: Eternity and Torment: Tides of Numenera.
I would have tossed $10 into the pot, were that an option that would have gotten me the game on release. I'm not sure how many others would have as well, though. But I almost never go as high as $20. Videogame campaigns just seem like far too much of a gamble, and $20 goes a long way towards a great game, immediately.
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I'm sorry it didn't work out for you, and I'm glad that you could take some positive lessons out of it. I don't therefore want to come up with more armchair 'this is why it didn't work!' blather, but rather here are my views on the game.
- The setting was too generic - I'm sure there was a lot that was planned and would unfold, but 'super generic western fantasy' is hard to sell on it's own. It either needs a very strong story, a unique mechanic or be amazingly polished. With the greatest respect, it's never going to be AAA polished a la Witcher, so it has to have unique mechanics or story. That, or make the setting itself more interesting.
- Proc Gen is great, but as others have mentioned, it needs to be demonstrated really clearly in terms of what can happen in the game. ProcGen also can't be that unique mechanic, unless it's done to an incredible level of detail (ala URR or limit theory)
- Combat seems good, but there wasn't really enough to show it off. It's all very well showing us beating up a few bandits, but will be fighting monsters? If not, what does combat look like against a number of armoured opponents? etc.
I really, really want this to work out - I thought Sol Trader was good, and I can imagine the next game you produce will be great. I'm not sure what the answers are, but the need for a 'USP' - whilst annoying marketing speak - is always very real.
I would have tossed $10 into the pot, were that an option that would have gotten me the game on release. I'm not sure how many others would have as well, though. But I almost never go as high as $20. Videogame campaigns just seem like far too much of a gamble, and $20 goes a long way towards a great game, immediately.
I get your point, but prince points are always a very, very subjective issue. $/£20 for you might be peanuts to someone else, whereas to me $10 might be way too high to even consider. I don't think $20 is an unfair amount to ask for for a finished full length RPG, especially as Chris has released a game before successfully (different story if they're a complete unknown). There's a problem that the game is relatively niche, so each game that he gives away for much less than the break even point is potentially a big loss.
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I would have tossed $10 into the pot, were that an option that would have gotten me the game on release. I'm not sure how many others would have as well, though. But I almost never go as high as $20. Videogame campaigns just seem like far too much of a gamble, and $20 goes a long way towards a great game, immediately.
I get your point, but prince points are always a very, very subjective issue. $/£20 for you might be peanuts to someone else, whereas to me $10 might be way too high to even consider. I don't think $20 is an unfair amount to ask for for a finished full length RPG, especially as Chris has released a game before successfully (different story if they're a complete unknown). There's a problem that the game is relatively niche, so each game that he gives away for much less than the break even point is potentially a big loss.
Yeah, there's a reason I tried to separate why I personally didn't back from other types of problems.
The biggest thing is that, for me personally, I'm incredibly risk-averse to Kickstarter videogame campaigns, and my perceived time-value of money just doesn't work in their favor. You're right, $20 for a good, finished, game like Chris is talking about is a very reasonable, or maybe even cheap, ask. The problem is that I'm not tossing $20 for a good, finished game - I'm tossing $20 towards an idea that may or may not become a game (Chris's background speaks strongly in favor, general Kickstarter stats and personal experience speak against), that may or may not live up to the ideas presented, and I have to weight that against the fact that I could pull up Steam/GOG/etc right now and spend $20 on an amazing game I can play immediately, with none of the other concerns. It's just not a good bargain for me.
Writing me off as someone too cheap to be the audience is fine, and I wouldn't even complain. The overall question towards people like me was why I didn't toss my money into the pot, and that's largely why. I don't know how the general Kickstarter audience feels about this, either - it's possible I am the cheap one.
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Writing me off as someone too cheap to be the audience is fine, and I wouldn't even complain. The overall question towards people like me was why I didn't toss my money into the pot, and that's largely why. I don't know how the general Kickstarter audience feels about this, either - it's possible I am the cheap one.
I certainly wouldn't write you off as cheap and I completely understand where you're coming from regarding GoG and Steam.
However, we've got to look at this from the standpoint of someone who wants to put money into a kickstarter - that's the primary market. If you start looking at it in direct market comparison to GoG/Steam, you'd come to the conclusion that no one would ever kickstart because there's an almost infinite number of games which are of an objectively higher value as they're already made.
So looking at it from the standpoint of someone who does want to kickstart, I don't think £20 is unreasonable (especially compared to other games of the same type). I guess the reason why I'm going on about this is that I don't want Chris to feel that the price point was the reason why it didn't work out as I really don't think it is.
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Writing me off as someone too cheap to be the audience is fine, and I wouldn't even complain. The overall question towards people like me was why I didn't toss my money into the pot, and that's largely why. I don't know how the general Kickstarter audience feels about this, either - it's possible I am the cheap one.
So looking at it from the standpoint of someone who does want to kickstart, I don't think £20 is unreasonable (especially compared to other games of the same type). I guess the reason why I'm going on about this is that I don't want Chris to feel that the price point was the reason why it didn't work out as I really don't think it is.
See, I agree... which is why I've been hesitant to mention it. The problem is that, despite trying, I couldn't convince myself that it might not have played a role, and he did ask...
Anecdotally, I've seen far more not-big-name (just to be able to shove things like Pillars of Eternity/Torment: Tides of Numera/Wasteland into their own, separate, group...) I do see more gaming kickstarters succeed when offering the game between $10 and $15, but that is *easily* selection bias - they're in the price range I'm liable to back, so I pay more attention to them.
Apparently the most popular pledge level on KS is $25 (https://www.kickstarter.com/help/handbook/rewards), so clearly, in the wider world of Kickstarter, I'm horribly off. (...which I kinda knew... I will easily toss $25 to $50 into the pot for a boardgame or tabletop system I'm interested in, if it gets me a physical/hardback copy).
At the end of the day, I think it's a really cool project idea and I want it to succeed. If I'm mostly-alone in being picky about price, then I should be ignored. But if I'm not, I don't want that to be missed just because we were hesitant to say "it's too expensive for us".