Post by: webadict on May 24, 2017, 08:20:43 am
Day 1: Welcome to Sundown! (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164260.msg7470376#msg7470376)
Night 1: Hanging Out (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164260.msg7478579#msg7478579)
Day 2: One Up, One Down, And One Nowhere Around (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164260.msg7480773#msg7480773)
Night 2: Mafi-Oh So Dead (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164260.msg7486598#msg7486598)
Day 3: Dead Men Do Tell Tales (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164260.msg7489884#msg7489884)
Night 3: Two Down (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164260.msg7496316#msg7496316)
Day 4: Server Takeover (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164260.msg7497952#msg7497952)
Night 4: Can't Hearse The Pers (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164260.msg7505586#msg7505586)
Day 5: Leftover Vestigials From Last Night (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164260.msg7507495#msg7507495)
This is BYOR
Additionally, you must send in a theme with your role.
This could be influential on your role or the game as a whole. Let's have fun, guys!
Please maintain a chill atmosphere. I can, will, and have modkilled people before and will probably do so in the future. If you join, you promise to be both respectful and diligent while playing.
Sign ups will last for one week or until 13+ players have signed up.
Basic rules:
- No PMing to anyone but me, the mod. I won't make this an action either because PMing is stupid.
- No Quoting of the Mod in relation to PMs. You are free to quote anything in the thread. You may paraphrase your PM, but if you break this rule, you will be penalized in ways you won't like.
- Semi-hammers in effect. Days last on a soft 72 hours, unless a majority is voting for any player or No Lynch. If a player is hammered, there is to be no more talking. If you accidentally post something after the hammer, you can and should edit out the post. If an event happens that would modify the Votecount, the Day is extended 48 hours.
- Official Votecounts will be posted once every 24 hours. Spamming Votecount will not get you an additional one because I won't be here at that time.
- Nights last 48 hours or whenever all the actions are sent in. If you do not wish to action, please send a PM stating so. If you do not PM me the first Night, I will auto-!none every Night afterward until I receive a PM.
- Weekends count for 0 hours, as I enjoy my free time on them. I might Votecounts during the time period.
- Extensions require a 66% vote. This will be limited to 1 extension per Day, because, seriously, make up your minds already. Extensions are an additional 48 hours.
- There may be Post Restrictions. These should not interfere with gameplay.
- I cannot answer questions about player's roles unless that player's role is available to be seen (i.e. Roleflips.) I cannot answer questions about your role in thread. I can, however, answer generic questions. I will simply ask you to rephrase the question, if I deem the question is bad.
- I’ll make this game open to newbies, if you want.
You are not in the game until I receive a role. Also, don't under- or overestimate your abilities or your role. And have fun! Because, honestly, that's the whole point.
Also, for those without knowledge of how I style roles, here's a little cheat sheet! If you ask me one of these questions, I will not answer it.
Spoiler: Webadict on Roles (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Webadict on Action Order (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Webadict on Alignments (click to show/hide)
Players:
flabort - Lynched and Revived Day 1 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164260.msg7478579#msg7478579)
Jack A T
Persus13 - Killed and Revived Night 1 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164260.msg7480773#msg7480773)
Tea
Tiruin
TolyK
This can no longer be you!
Replacement List:
This can always be you!
Post by: Shakerag on May 24, 2017, 08:45:08 am
Post by: flabort on May 24, 2017, 08:50:20 am
Post by: TheDarkStar on May 24, 2017, 08:51:13 am
Post by: Lenglon on May 24, 2017, 09:12:49 am
Post by: Tiruin on May 24, 2017, 09:43:30 am
Conditional IN, I need to verify that Ill have internet. should know in a few days.In too!
Post by: origamiscienceguy on May 24, 2017, 11:32:04 am
Post by: TolyK on May 24, 2017, 11:51:51 am
Post by: webadict on May 24, 2017, 12:00:08 pm
This soon? I was expecting by Friday. But I'll definitely send In my role soon.I had this planned like several months ago. Plus it requires some setup beforehand
Post by: TolyK on May 24, 2017, 12:02:58 pm
Also, you should probably update the title. ;)
Post by: webadict on May 24, 2017, 12:48:14 pm
Post by: hector13 on May 24, 2017, 12:54:49 pm
Post by: flabort on May 24, 2017, 02:03:09 pm
Some of you are forgetting themes... if you don't send one in, I'll choose for you.Pays off to pay attention to the top post for any anomalies.
Post by: FallacyofUrist on May 24, 2017, 02:43:42 pm
Post by: webadict on May 24, 2017, 09:40:36 pm
As per the role I sent you a few months back, in. If I have to during my move, I'll post via 3DS, though posts during that time will be shorter and less frequent.Found it.
Post by: Persus13 on May 24, 2017, 10:04:08 pm
Post by: Tiruin on May 24, 2017, 11:56:16 pm
I sent in:Some of you are forgetting themes... if you don't send one in, I'll choose for you.Pays off to pay attention to the top post for any anomalies.
Theme:
Role:
For anyone wondering if they're being too formal :P
I've also added 'feel free to personalize my role in anyway you'd like Web :)' so I'm at the mercy of an RPG master u_u
Post by: Jack A T on May 25, 2017, 12:01:09 am
I also apologize for the role.
Post by: webadict on May 25, 2017, 06:16:12 pm
In.Haha, oh man, just you guys wait. Just you wait.
I also apologize for the role.
Post by: flabort on May 25, 2017, 06:21:02 pm
Post by: webadict on May 25, 2017, 07:20:46 pm
Post by: TolyK on May 25, 2017, 08:58:46 pm
Also, do we really only have 12 people in the subforum atm?! :p
Post by: Shakerag on May 25, 2017, 10:05:12 pm
I can only but hope my role/theme is contributing to that.In.Haha, oh man, just you guys wait. Just you wait.
I also apologize for the role.
Post by: Tiruin on May 26, 2017, 10:03:18 pm
I will just prepare my glove, and plop it against my forehead as I be all :'( with you guys being hilarious. (Y'know, that # Glove I only see on western TV that they use in stadiums?) :PI can only but hope my role/theme is contributing to that.In.Haha, oh man, just you guys wait. Just you wait.
I also apologize for the role.
I should've sent in Vector as my role u_u
Post by: Shakerag on May 26, 2017, 10:33:02 pm
Tiruin, hon, what the hell are you talking about?I will just prepare my glove, and plop it against my forehead as I be all :'( with you guys being hilarious. (Y'know, that # Glove I only see on western TV that they use in stadiums?) :PI can only but hope my role/theme is contributing to that.In.Haha, oh man, just you guys wait. Just you wait.
I also apologize for the role.
Post by: Tiruin on May 26, 2017, 10:36:35 pm
Tiruin, hon, what the hell are you talking about?I have no idea either ;~; I was just presented with a thought of someone cheering on people.
Post by: birdy51 on May 26, 2017, 10:39:38 pm
Post by: webadict on May 26, 2017, 11:54:25 pm
Post by: Jack A T on May 27, 2017, 12:55:26 am
Post by: 4maskwolf on May 27, 2017, 03:16:24 am
Post by: Lenglon on May 27, 2017, 11:20:30 am
Im still testing this location, i should know more about my net tomorrow.
edit: correction: tuesday. yay for repeated last-minute rescheduling! this was supposed to be on saturday that we went to our final area...
Post by: TheBiggerFish on May 27, 2017, 12:13:45 pm
Post by: webadict on May 27, 2017, 03:01:23 pm
Lenglon, if you can't post for a bit, feel free to let me know. I'm just trying to push a game out the door for everyone else.
Post by: Lenglon on May 27, 2017, 03:19:51 pm
currently scheduled for tues, but its been rescheduled 3x so far and could easilly happen again.
Post by: webadict on May 27, 2017, 03:26:11 pm
The problem is im in a region with poor cell service, and am going to be moved to a new spot later this week. I dont know if said spot will or wont be a dead zone. so... either ill disappear without a chance to post whats happening, or im worried over nothing and will be posting just fine. and i wont know till it happens.Alright. Hmm... Would you like me to delay to Tuesday? That shouldn't be an issue for me, since it gives me a bit more time to finish baking these roles.
currently scheduled for tues, but its been rescheduled 3x so far and could easilly happen again.
Post by: flabort on May 27, 2017, 03:32:23 pm
Post by: TolyK on May 27, 2017, 04:39:01 pm
...
hypehypehypehypehype
Post by: Lenglon on May 27, 2017, 04:47:31 pm
Post by: 4maskwolf on May 28, 2017, 01:23:22 am
Post by: doll on May 28, 2017, 02:47:12 am
in
Post by: Tiruin on May 28, 2017, 07:48:52 am
I also will have a limited ability to post until tuesday.DOOOOOLL!!!!
in
I am now a happy mouse. Squeak squeak!
Hello there person-who-said-they-won't-be-posting-anymore! Please don't disappear in uncertain 'certain' circumstances please :<
Post by: flabort on May 28, 2017, 08:45:02 am
Is it bad that I already forgot what role I submitted?Nope, now you get a bigger, funner surprise when the final product comes back to you.
Post by: webadict on May 28, 2017, 09:57:34 am
I could literally send anything back to him now and he'd have no idea!Is it bad that I already forgot what role I submitted?Nope, now you get a bigger, funner surprise when the final product comes back to you.
Post by: roo on May 28, 2017, 10:40:57 am
Post by: doll on May 28, 2017, 02:27:07 pm
I'm posting this here because what's the point of having pregame discussion if you can't introduce wifom about asymmetry in the information you are providing to the mod and to your fellow players?
Also, it may resolve in a hilarious way.
Post by: webadict on May 28, 2017, 02:34:34 pm
I'm not sure if we were supposed to or able to specify the scope of our theme; I'd like to request if possible that it is applied to the whole game.You are a monster.
I'm posting this here because what's the point of having pregame discussion if you can't introduce wifom about asymmetry in the information you are providing to the mod and to your fellow players?
Also, it may resolve in a hilarious way.
Post by: Jack A T on May 28, 2017, 03:09:41 pm
I'm posting this here because what's the point of having pregame discussion if you can't introduce wifom about asymmetry in the information you are providing to the mod and to your fellow players?I'm working hard to pursue my faction's strategic interests (power, survival, survival through power) by posting what may or may not be posts related to my role and/or theme. I don't know what my faction is (outsider, obviously), but I'm sure they'll be happy with this.
Post by: hector13 on May 28, 2017, 03:25:54 pm
Obviously I'm not the Jester.
Post by: flabort on May 28, 2017, 03:47:35 pm
I'm posting this here because what's the point of having pregame discussion if you can't introduce wifom about asymmetry in the information you are providing to the mod and to your fellow players?Is this a rhetorical question? Assuming not, it's to psych yourselves up about the game and in the case of BYORs to speculate on your roles, and to psych out your potential opponents.
Also, it may resolve in a hilarious way.
How many people included a link as part of their role submission? o/
Post by: doll on May 28, 2017, 03:51:10 pm
I can't lynch you because you're cute
Is this a rhetorical question?Yes.
Also I discussed this in another thread, pregames are fun but they encourage some really dumb habits and a rather odd best practice if you want to make mafia serious business.
How many people included a link as part of their role submission? o/I needed a link to explain my theme, but my role is almost entirely undefined and as prosaic as they come so it didn't need one.
Post by: webadict on May 28, 2017, 04:06:43 pm
make mafia serious business.This game makes mafia something, but I wouldn't say it's serious.
Post by: flabort on May 28, 2017, 04:49:29 pm
Hahah. Yes, this is why I enjoy BYOR games and other similar mafias, the silliness of it, and how crazy it gets. When a game is mostly vanilla and all business, I find it more stressful than fun; hence why I left the forums for a while, too much stress, and too addicted to mafia games to stop myself from entering the games that I knew would be more stress than fun.make mafia serious business.This game makes mafia something, but I wouldn't say it's serious.
Post by: TolyK on May 28, 2017, 05:28:58 pm
My submission contained links, but that's more for clarity's sake.
BYOR = fun, because each person has proprietary information, and not just the scum team. Haven't we discussed this already? :P
Post by: hector13 on May 28, 2017, 06:06:53 pm
Post by: TheDarkStar on May 28, 2017, 06:55:01 pm
How many people included a link as part of their role submission? o/
My role submission was a self-explanatory picture. My theme is a single word that might just apply to my role or it might apply to the entire game.
Post by: Shakerag on May 28, 2017, 10:00:02 pm
As long as I've offended someone I've won. The mod counts too.Hahah. Yes, this is why I enjoy BYOR games and other similar mafias, the silliness of it, and how crazy it gets. When a game is mostly vanilla and all business, I find it more stressful than fun; hence why I left the forums for a while, too much stress, and too addicted to mafia games to stop myself from entering the games that I knew would be more stress than fun.make mafia serious business.This game makes mafia something, but I wouldn't say it's serious.
Post by: Shakerag on May 28, 2017, 10:00:32 pm
Post by: 4maskwolf on May 28, 2017, 10:15:21 pm
Post by: Tiruin on May 28, 2017, 10:23:06 pm
I'm not sure if we were supposed to or able to specify the scope of our theme; I'd like to request if possible that it is applied to the whole game.:v
I'm posting this here because what's the point of having pregame discussion if you can't introduce wifom about asymmetry in the information you are providing to the mod and to your fellow players?
Also, it may resolve in a hilarious way.
I hate it when people ruin the game just for the(ir own) hilarity by sending in stupid roles which are overly-specified-but-without-the-charm-of-an-actual-concept-but-rather-a-mix-maxed-idea, and insulting Shakerag's Shakeragian Shakerag.
But also stuff that makes everything needlessly complicated.
Meaning I sent in Jack A T as my role and theme of judge judicial lawyer balance. :P
Post by: Tea on May 28, 2017, 10:39:39 pm
Post by: Tea on May 28, 2017, 10:41:38 pm
Post by: Shakerag on May 28, 2017, 10:49:01 pm
:vThanks. I think?
I hate it when people ruin the game just for the(ir own) hilarity by sending in stupid roles which are overly-specified-but-without-the-charm-of-an-actual-concept-but-rather-a-mix-maxed-idea, and insulting Shakerag's Shakeragian Shakerag.
But also stuff that makes everything needlessly complicated.
Meaning I sent in Jack A T as my role and theme of judge judicial lawyer balance. :P
Post by: doll on May 29, 2017, 01:58:40 am
But also stuff that makes everything needlessly complicated.Don't worry, I didn't submit any rules.
/in and trying to bring a friendThis was after the deadline. I'm not sure if webadict cares, though.
Post by: webadict on May 29, 2017, 07:55:16 am
I don't.But also stuff that makes everything needlessly complicated.Don't worry, I didn't submit any rules./in and trying to bring a friendThis was after the deadline. I'm not sure if webadict cares, though.
His username is Pozzai and he is waiting for his account to be activated for now but he'd like to play/send a role when possible.If your friend wants to join tell him to email me at gmail (you'd be surprised what it is) or to find me on something he can send me his role at.
Post by: doll on May 29, 2017, 08:16:19 am
It may be worth having Pozzai also send an email to the forum admin if time becomes an issue.
Post by: webadict on May 29, 2017, 09:26:36 am
/InYo, I'll let you join if you read the rules. Your submission is like a literal role PM. Also, you haven't replied, so I don't even know if you're here. You've got until tonight to fix it.
His username is Pozzai and he is waiting for his account to be activated for now but he'd like to play/send a role when possible.I'll need him to send in his role ASAP. I'll give him the same timeline: Tonight is the latest I stay open for just these two.
Post by: Lenglon on May 29, 2017, 09:33:08 am
fully in and ready to play.
and yes, this is totally tuesday. these pplz are amazing at schedules.
Post by: origamiscienceguy on May 29, 2017, 09:43:18 am
Post by: webadict on May 29, 2017, 09:54:00 am
What if roo just really wants his role to be about a famous serial killer?We've already got 15 of those in this game.
Post by: Tea on May 29, 2017, 10:16:31 am
Post by: TolyK on May 29, 2017, 10:57:46 am
So, no-SK game confirmed.What if roo just really wants his role to be about a famous serial killer?We've already got 15 of those in this game.
Post by: webadict on May 29, 2017, 12:26:28 pm
WIFOM.So, no-SK game confirmed.What if roo just really wants his role to be about a famous serial killer?We've already got 15 of those in this game.
There's no mafia.
Post by: flabort on May 29, 2017, 02:42:20 pm
Just outsiders and allies.WIFOM.So, no-SK game confirmed.What if roo just really wants his role to be about a famous serial killer?We've already got 15 of those in this game.
There's no mafia.
Post by: webadict on May 29, 2017, 02:49:31 pm
Not gonna lie, I did consider it, but it seemed like it would suck to play, so I didn't. I don't like unfun setups. The goal's to be as ridiculously somehow balancedish as possible, but also be fun for each player.Just outsiders and allies.WIFOM.So, no-SK game confirmed.What if roo just really wants his role to be about a famous serial killer?We've already got 15 of those in this game.
There's no mafia.
Post by: Pozzai on May 29, 2017, 02:55:59 pm
WIFOM.So, no-SK game confirmed.What if roo just really wants his role to be about a famous serial killer?We've already got 15 of those in this game.
There's no mafia.
There's only mafias!
Post by: origamiscienceguy on May 29, 2017, 03:01:33 pm
Post by: TheDarkStar on May 29, 2017, 03:28:53 pm
Post by: webadict on May 29, 2017, 03:36:41 pm
inb4 1 "town" vs 15 serial killers that win together but don't know it.That... was already a game I ran... Sooooo...
Post by: 4maskwolf on May 29, 2017, 03:36:50 pm
inb4 1 "town" vs 15 serial killers that win together but don't know it.Unless that one townie has ridiculous survivability that won't work for the same reason that one-man scumteams are hard to balance for: a single turn of events could end the game on an anti-climactic note.
Post by: FallacyofUrist on May 29, 2017, 05:23:08 pm
Post by: flabort on May 29, 2017, 05:34:35 pm
It's a coinflip whether or not you'd ever repeat it, and the odds that any given game will be that repeat are pretty low.inb4 1 "town" vs 15 serial killers that win together but don't know it.That... was already a game I ran... Sooooo...
WIFOM
Post by: Jack A T on May 29, 2017, 05:56:31 pm
Post by: 4maskwolf on May 29, 2017, 05:57:05 pm
a non-player velociraptor.Pls no, once is enough XD
Post by: flabort on May 29, 2017, 06:26:21 pm
Really, this game will have 17 jester-survivors and a non-player velociraptor.You mean a ragshake
Post by: Jack A T on May 29, 2017, 06:30:38 pm
That will join halfway through, when one of the jester-survivors invites a new pseudo-player.Really, this game will have 17 jester-survivors and a non-player velociraptor.You mean a ragshake
Post by: webadict on May 29, 2017, 06:36:02 pm
Post by: hector13 on May 29, 2017, 06:44:41 pm
Post by: 4maskwolf on May 29, 2017, 06:47:00 pm
Post by: flabort on May 29, 2017, 06:57:49 pm
I mean, as long as he doesn't go full semi-bastard and let everyone have multiple wincons like in Smstr W/ Love we should be fine.What do you think the themes were for? :P
Post by: webadict on May 29, 2017, 09:39:39 pm
Post by: hector13 on May 29, 2017, 09:42:17 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Pozzai on May 29, 2017, 09:42:51 pm
Well, it looks like roo isn't answering, so I might need to drop him. He didn't send in a theme, either, so I guess we're just gonna play without him. I'll finish rule baking sometime tomorrow when I get a confirmation from doll. After that, we can start.
Got an idea about time for day starts yet? Preferably with an added timezone :]
Post by: origamiscienceguy on May 29, 2017, 10:19:14 pm
Post by: FallacyofUrist on May 29, 2017, 10:22:44 pm
Post by: doll on May 30, 2017, 12:59:10 am
Got an idea about time for day starts yet? Preferably with an added timezone :]eh, just miss the first twelve hours due to timezones.
It's what I usually do.
Post by: TolyK on May 30, 2017, 03:12:08 am
And to be fair, the Velociraptor was my idea, I think...
Post by: Lenglon on May 30, 2017, 04:19:43 am
Eastern Europe with a really strange sleeping schedule, reporting in.Hiya! Same here, but am only europeon temporarilly.
Post by: webadict on May 30, 2017, 05:53:15 am
My guess is either today at 8-9 PM Central or tomorrow at the same time. I have some touching up on roles I need to finish plus a few couple rounds of retooling for balance.Well, it looks like roo isn't answering, so I might need to drop him. He didn't send in a theme, either, so I guess we're just gonna play without him. I'll finish rule baking sometime tomorrow when I get a confirmation from doll. After that, we can start.
Got an idea about time for day starts yet? Preferably with an added timezone :]
Post by: Shakerag on May 30, 2017, 08:52:56 am
Not gonna lie, I did consider it, but it seemed like it would suck to play, so I didn't. I don't like unfun setups. The goal's to be as ridiculously somehow balancedish as possible, but also be fun for each player.o rly
Post by: webadict on May 30, 2017, 08:54:21 am
Well, yours is a special case.Not gonna lie, I did consider it, but it seemed like it would suck to play, so I didn't. I don't like unfun setups. The goal's to be as ridiculously somehow balancedish as possible, but also be fun for each player.o rly
Post by: Shakerag on May 30, 2017, 08:54:50 am
I may or may not have been considering putting a velociraptor in KYOSN2.a non-player velociraptor.Pls no, once is enough XD
Post by: 4maskwolf on May 30, 2017, 11:45:53 am
You realize you're just giving Wuba more reasons to screw you, right?I may or may not have been considering putting a velociraptor in KYOSN2.a non-player velociraptor.Pls no, once is enough XD
Post by: TolyK on May 30, 2017, 12:42:51 pm
Well, I'm a semi-permanent temporary European. *high-five*Eastern Europe with a really strange sleeping schedule, reporting in.Hiya! Same here, but am only europeon temporarilly.
If you do, can it at least have decent character traits? :PI may or may not have been considering putting a velociraptor in KYOSN2.a non-player velociraptor.Pls no, once is enough XD
Post by: Shakerag on May 30, 2017, 01:34:52 pm
Well, since he's working with me on KYOSN2 ...You realize you're just giving Wuba more reasons to screw you, right?I may or may not have been considering putting a velociraptor in KYOSN2.a non-player velociraptor.Pls no, once is enough XD
But, yeah, wouldn't have it any other way.
Post by: webadict on May 30, 2017, 02:08:39 pm
Well now that you said that, I may need to modify your role...Well, since he's working with me on KYOSN2 ...You realize you're just giving Wuba more reasons to screw you, right?I may or may not have been considering putting a velociraptor in KYOSN2.a non-player velociraptor.Pls no, once is enough XD
But, yeah, wouldn't have it any other way.
Post by: Shakerag on May 30, 2017, 04:13:51 pm
Well now that you said that, I may need to modify your role...<3 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4dOsbsuhYGQ)
Post by: Lenglon on May 30, 2017, 04:37:37 pm
I hate my boss's boss so much right now.
Ill be changing locations again sometime around the 4th, lasting until probably the 12th? these people are crazy-inconsistant. If I lose net while there ill still be back after that, so id like to play anyway. when it gets closer then ill try to set up contingencies for net loss.
Post by: webadict on May 30, 2017, 07:34:42 pm
Post by: 4maskwolf on May 30, 2017, 07:54:13 pm
Post by: FallacyofUrist on May 30, 2017, 08:20:13 pm
Post by: webadict on May 30, 2017, 08:36:22 pm
Post by: 4maskwolf on May 30, 2017, 08:37:06 pm
Taking a reprieve from finishing these roles, some of them are ridiculous.Is mine on that list?
I hope it's not, mine doesn't feel like it should have been a headache, but who knows.
Post by: FallacyofUrist on May 30, 2017, 08:44:00 pm
Post by: hector13 on May 30, 2017, 08:44:24 pm
Post by: webadict on May 30, 2017, 08:54:25 pm
I can't divulge role information.Taking a reprieve from finishing these roles, some of them are ridiculous.Is mine on that list?
I hope it's not, mine doesn't feel like it should have been a headache, but who knows.
Except for Shakerag's. His wasn't that bad though. Then I made it worse.
Post by: Shakerag on May 30, 2017, 09:06:27 pm
YASSSSI can't divulge role information.Taking a reprieve from finishing these roles, some of them are ridiculous.Is mine on that list?
I hope it's not, mine doesn't feel like it should have been a headache, but who knows.
Except for Shakerag's. His wasn't that bad though. Then I made it worse.
Post by: 4maskwolf on May 30, 2017, 10:12:13 pm
Post by: Shakerag on May 30, 2017, 10:16:30 pm
That aside, I'm a fan of reticulating splines myself.
Post by: Shakerag on May 30, 2017, 10:16:58 pm
Post by: 4maskwolf on May 30, 2017, 10:17:29 pm
Quote
Arguing with 4maskwolf
Implying that's anything new to mafia games involving the two of us.
Post by: Jack A T on May 30, 2017, 10:18:56 pm
Post by: Shakerag on May 30, 2017, 10:19:42 pm
Aww, don't argue. Your hair will fall out. Ask me how I know... -_-QuoteArguing with 4maskwolf
Implying that's anything new to mafia games involving the two of us.
Post by: 4maskwolf on May 30, 2017, 10:21:29 pm
Good, then I won't have to spend money and time on haircuts XDAww, don't argue. Your hair will fall out. Ask me how I know... -_-QuoteArguing with 4maskwolf
Implying that's anything new to mafia games involving the two of us.
Post by: Shakerag on May 30, 2017, 10:27:01 pm
Post by: Jack A T on May 30, 2017, 10:28:29 pm
I still don't know what my faction is, but Shakerag would probably agree with me, and he is an expert on Shakerag's needed strength.
Post by: hector13 on May 30, 2017, 10:29:35 pm
Post by: Shakerag on May 30, 2017, 10:30:08 pm
Shakerag's role must be strong for my faction to do well.Hey Jack! Did you see Cher perform at the Billboard 2017 Awards?
I still don't know what my faction is, but Shakerag would probably agree with me, and he is an expert on Shakerag's needed strength.
Post by: Tiruin on May 30, 2017, 10:32:38 pm
And I only noticed because of Shakerag's latest response, causing this to appear in my newbox with said new title.
Faction?Shakerag's role must be strong for my faction to do well.Hey Jack! Did you see Cher perform at the Billboard 2017 Awards?
I still don't know what my faction is, but Shakerag would probably agree with me, and he is an expert on Shakerag's needed strength.
Post by: Shakerag on May 30, 2017, 10:33:14 pm
Really, this game will have 17 jester-survivors and a non-player velociraptor.Are you happy now?
Post by: Jack A T on May 30, 2017, 10:35:12 pm
Hey Jack! Did you see Cher perform at the Billboard 2017 Awards?I saw a billboard without Cher while on a bus sometime in 2017. Does that count?
Faction?Anti-Anti-Shakerag, clearly.
Needs more backwards guns. Mounted on the velociraptor, that is.Really, this game will have 17 jester-survivors and a non-player velociraptor.Are you happy now?
Post by: hector13 on May 30, 2017, 10:38:24 pm
Post by: webadict on May 30, 2017, 10:43:43 pm
I don't have the stamina for this, I'm going to bed :'(That's how I'm starting to feel. I might not have enough time to send out roles tonight. I might have to delay until tomorrow.
Post by: FallacyofUrist on May 30, 2017, 10:59:27 pm
This isn't fucking Terraria webadict.You'll look back and think this is funny after the game.
Post by: flabort on May 30, 2017, 10:59:36 pm
Post by: 4maskwolf on May 30, 2017, 11:03:47 pm
This title though.
Post by: Lenglon on May 30, 2017, 11:04:20 pm
Post by: Jack A T on May 30, 2017, 11:27:31 pm
Post by: 4maskwolf on May 30, 2017, 11:34:10 pm
Post by: TheDarkStar on May 30, 2017, 11:35:00 pm
Post by: 4maskwolf on May 30, 2017, 11:36:31 pm
Post by: Jack A T on May 30, 2017, 11:44:39 pm
Post by: 4maskwolf on May 30, 2017, 11:45:46 pm
Perhaps Webadict figured your angle.Perhaps Webadict went to sleep and is leaving the "not funny" message up until morning XD
Post by: webadict on May 30, 2017, 11:46:51 pm
Lol, nah, I'd never do thPerhaps Webadict figured your angle.Perhaps Webadict went to sleep and is leaving the "not funny" message up until morning XD
Post by: 4maskwolf on May 30, 2017, 11:47:21 pm
Well played.Lol, nah, I'd never do thPerhaps Webadict figured your angle.Perhaps Webadict went to sleep and is leaving the "not funny" message up until morning XD
Post by: Tiruin on May 30, 2017, 11:51:07 pm
At least Webadict didn't reset his progress.Well played.Lol, nah, I'd never do thPerhaps Webadict figured your angle.Perhaps Webadict went to sleep and is leaving the "not funny" message up until morning XD
He's in the process of rebooting his sleep cycles though so we can have a fresh start \o/
Post by: Jack A T on May 30, 2017, 11:55:30 pm
Post by: webadict on May 31, 2017, 12:13:05 am
Post by: webadict on May 31, 2017, 12:48:23 am
Opening Music (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zbrHzKyFQ-E)
We find ourselves at the onset of another mafia game. But not just any mafia game. This is BYOR 0. This is the reboot nobody asked for, yet everybody wanted.
The scene opens on the rough and tumble town of Sundown, located approximately smack dab in the middle of Nowhere Desert. It’s nearly high noon, and Sundown looks nearly like a ghost town, and is probably inhabited by a few, given the circumstances. And its future.
We see the cacti on the outskirts of the town, hunched like dying men marching to their graves. We see the troughs lined up outside of buildings that have been dried up for years.
A single tumbleweed strolls through town, looks around, and wisely heads elsewhere.
We move our scene into the saloon, moving past the sanded letters that make up the name: Webley’s Saloon.
A great man has passed. Surrounded by 16 characters that called him many things--Friend or foe.
No. A great man has been murdered. This town had only existed because of his hard work.
There were signs around them. The broken chairs. The bullet-laden walls and tables. The smoking gun lies a mere foot from his hands.
This is when we get a good look at our mourners, with their wide array of colored hairs of varying length, dressed in cowboy hats, short skirts, and long stockings.
“Uyu… Who killed Webley-san? u.u”
Closing Music (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cpG8yPnAdl8)
If you'd like to no longer follow along, I don't blame you.
Vote Count
------------------------
Shakerag -
flabort -
TheDarkStar -
Lenglon -
Tiruin -
origamascienceguy -
TolyK -
hector13 -
FallacyOfUrist -
Persus13 -
Jack A T -
4maskwolf -
TheBiggerFish -
doll -
Tea -
Pozzai -
No Lynch -
Not Voting - Shakerag, flabort, TheDarkStar, Lenglon, Tiruin, origamascienceguy, TolyK, hector13, FallacyOfUrist, Persus13, Jack A T, 4maskwolf, TheBiggerFish, doll, Tea, Pozzai,
Day Ends on Monday, June 5th at 8:00 PM CST. There is an Extension available.
It is Day 1.
Post by: 4maskwolf on May 31, 2017, 12:51:50 am
Now, to start the game talking to the person I'm sure I'll spend the rest of the game bickering and/or allying with...
Doll: You're a cop in this BYOR with a guilty result on someone. Do you claim, and what circumstances would change your answer?
Post by: Pozzai on May 31, 2017, 01:00:55 am
Is this thing on !?!?
Post by: Pozzai on May 31, 2017, 01:05:25 am
I just drank some tea, and now my stomach aches, therefore Tea is clearly bad for you and something very nasty, so we should make great attempts at removing it from the game.
/tosses Tea into the harbour.
Also, how does one avoid being through back to the mafia subforum everytime one posts ? :(
Post by: Jack A T on May 31, 2017, 01:12:22 am
A claim: My theme is the balance of threat (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balance_of_threat), a concept from my field of study, international relations. Yes, my theme is the apparent basis of the title flabort did not get. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164260.msg7470311#msg7470311)
Why am I claiming this? Because.
doll: As our resident expert on pre-game discussion analysis, what do you make of the above?
4maskwolf: As someone who isn't our resident expert on pre-game discussion analysis, what do you make of my asking a question about pre-game discussion?
Shakerag: Are you scum?
flabort: How would you react if you learned that I was lying about my theme?
TheDarkStar: What value, if any, is there in having an RVS question for everyone if not all of the questions are useful?
Lenglon: How has your view of BYORs changed since BYOR 14?
Tiruin: how do i byor
origamiscienceguy: how do i rvs
TolyK: I claimed my theme. What does this tell you about the game?
hector13: How would hector12 approach RVS, and why is that approach wrong?
FallacyOfUrist: What is the best way to place your vote in RVS? Should multiple players vote for the same target in RVS?
Persus13: I haven't played online Mafia for a few months. How will this impact your view of my play, if at all?
TheBiggerFish:
Tea: Pozzai made a strong case against you. How do you feel about having two votes on you?
Pozzai: Welcome to Bay 12. Can you summarize your prior Mafia/Werewolf experience, if any? Also, to return to the thread after posting, go to the Profile tab, and click on Look and Layout. Check the "Return to topics after posting by default" box.
Post by: TheBiggerFish on May 31, 2017, 01:18:53 am
Pozzai:Do you have previous Mafia experience? Oh dang it ninja'd.
Tea:Who are you?
Post by: Pozzai on May 31, 2017, 01:18:59 am
Pozzai: Welcome to Bay 12. Can you summarize your prior Mafia/Werewolf experience, if any? Also, to return to the thread after posting, go to the Profile tab, and click on Look and Layout. Check the "Return to topics after posting by default" box.
I've played mafia on video since... April? 2015, and forum mafia from July 2015. I've played probably at a rate of a game pr month in terms of forum and a very high amount of video.
I mainly played on Fantasystrike and DLP early on, and since that mainly PersonalityCafe since with the tag Pozzai, I have also explored a few other forums under a different nickname that I use when I don't want to be bothered by people I know/that knows me, which I wont reveal, but it has never made an appearence on this forum before.
Also, thx, kinda missed that box when doing ppp changes and stuff !
Post by: Pozzai on May 31, 2017, 01:19:34 am
Who the heck is Tea?
Pozzai:Do you have previous Mafia experience? Oh dang it ninja'd.
Tea is bae(which means poop in my native language!)
Post by: TheBiggerFish on May 31, 2017, 01:20:38 am
Post by: 4maskwolf on May 31, 2017, 01:25:02 am
TBF: Before your time, kid, before your time. Remember that you're a Gen 4 player, there's a lot of old players you don't know. Now, why have all your posts been about people's previous mafia experience?
Post by: Pozzai on May 31, 2017, 01:30:09 am
TBF: Before your time, kid, before your time. Remember that you're a Gen 4 player, there's a lot of old players you don't know. Now, why have all your posts been about people's previous mafia experience?
Oh you know her? I might have to lean a bit on you later then ! :P
Post by: TheBiggerFish on May 31, 2017, 01:31:45 am
Most everyone else I've seen before, though, if not played with.
Also, 'all my posts' == 2 posts, which really is more like one actual post given my posting habits.
...Pozzai:Why? What about knowing Tea makes 4mask more suspicious or pressurable?
Post by: Pozzai on May 31, 2017, 01:33:19 am
...Pozzai:Why? What about knowing Tea makes 4mask more suspicious or pressurable?
That's not quite what I tried to convey, it was more a "oh my day1 read on her is shit so I might have to lean on you for guidance" :P
Post by: TheBiggerFish on May 31, 2017, 01:37:05 am
Post by: Lenglon on May 31, 2017, 01:39:18 am
>.>
maybe I should RP every post again.
hmmm....
I'll get back to you on that, eventually, possibly through flavortext.
Tea: OOOhhhhh lookit! a bandwagon! lemmie on lemmie on!
Doll: You are town with a unlimited-use flavor-inspect and a 1-shot role inspect, when do you use the role-inspect? when do you claim? how would this change if the use numbers were reversed?
OSG: you are town with a 1-shot daykill and no forms of inspection. when do you use it?
Post by: Pozzai on May 31, 2017, 01:41:21 am
... @Pozzai: Then your word choice was poor. Why would 4mask be of any more help, anyway?
Maybe, sometimes stuff gets lost in translation.
If town!4mask, able to add a second pov on the only person in the game I have any knowledge of.
If scum!4mask, might be informative if their arguments feels reachy or contrived.
Post by: Jack A T on May 31, 2017, 01:42:44 am
Pozzai: Thanks. Don't need to know any nicknames, but knowing a little about your prior experience should help me read you in the long run.
4maskwolf: Interesting that you're so uneasy about my claiming my theme at all. Answering (not-quite-prompted) doll's question to get your thoughts out, even: you felt this was relatively important to say. As for why I claimed it...as I said, because.
In terms of benefits/harms, how does claiming my theme compare to most RVS behaviour?
Lenglon: Just keep the quote slivers under control. Those are a bit hard on my eyes.
I think this wagon needs more people. Don't you agree?
Post by: TheBiggerFish on May 31, 2017, 01:44:57 am
Lenglon: Why do you consider RP in Mafia a benefit?
Post by: TheBiggerFish on May 31, 2017, 01:47:52 am
Jack: Why was there no question in your question?Also Lenglon:If you are RPing, is that a softclaim of your role?
Lenglon: Why do you consider RP in Mafia a benefit?
Post by: Pozzai on May 31, 2017, 01:48:14 am
Tea: OOOhhhhh lookit! a bandwagon! lemmie on lemmie on!
At this pace we can lynch her before she has a chance to appear... This is the stuff dreams are made of, I'm so happy right now!
Post by: Jack A T on May 31, 2017, 01:48:57 am
Jack: Why was there no question in your question?TheBiggerFish: To elicit a response. Why did you not initially ask about the gap?
Post by: Pozzai on May 31, 2017, 01:49:21 am
4maskwolf: Interesting that you're so uneasy about my claiming my theme at all. Answering (not-quite-prompted) doll's question to get your thoughts out, even: you felt this was relatively important to say. As for why I claimed it...as I said, because.
Remind me to get back to this when it is no longer a Garcia !
Post by: TheBiggerFish on May 31, 2017, 01:52:03 am
I got distracted by Pozzai and it was over a pagebreak, so I didn't notice it again afterwards. I also thought it might have been a mistake.Jack: Why was there no question in your question?TheBiggerFish: To elicit a response. Why did you not initially ask about the gap?
Post by: Jack A T on May 31, 2017, 01:54:28 am
TheBiggerFish: The pagebreak and the distraction make sense as cause to not ask. However, you thought I might have made a mistake. Why would that make you less likely to check with me, not more likely?TheBiggerFish: To elicit a response. Why did you not initially ask about the gap?I got distracted by Pozzai and it was over a pagebreak, so I didn't notice it again afterwards. I also thought it might have been a mistake.
Post by: TheBiggerFish on May 31, 2017, 01:56:23 am
Eh?TheBiggerFish: The pagebreak and the distraction make sense as cause to not ask. However, you thought I might have made a mistake. Why would that make you less likely to check with me, not more likely?TheBiggerFish: To elicit a response. Why did you not initially ask about the gap?I got distracted by Pozzai and it was over a pagebreak, so I didn't notice it again afterwards. I also thought it might have been a mistake.
...you know what, maybe I shouldn't be playing Mafia at 3 AM, my attention span is apparently that of the proverbial goldfish. Gonna sleep now.
Post by: 4maskwolf on May 31, 2017, 01:57:24 am
I am vaguely familiar with Tea, I may have played a couple games in the past with her, lemme check...TBF: Before your time, kid, before your time. Remember that you're a Gen 4 player, there's a lot of old players you don't know. Now, why have all your posts been about people's previous mafia experience?
Oh you know her? I might have to lean a bit on you later then ! :P
Yeah okay I have, I was getting worried for a second there. Don't trust my reads on Tea more because of it, though, it's been a long time since I played mafia in general and specifically with Tea so I don't have any particular insight into her meta.
>.>Pls nu. I was on your team in that game and it was still bothersome, I can only imagine how annoying it must have been to the people actually trying to scumhunt you.
maybe I should RP every post again.
While we're on the subject of you...
Lenglon: I have a guideline about RVS bandwagons. The first vote is random, the second vote is pressure, the third vote is lazy. Especially when given that "justification". That's the first thing to truly ping my scum-o-meter, even if only a fraction, so have a vote for your troubles. (Ironically, your justification is what saved you from a much larger ping, but it doesn't mean I'm happy about it).
Jack A T: Oh come one now, I'm pretty sure you knew I would answer that question, especially when you ask how I feel about you asking that question. I got my thoughts about because why the hell not? I had an opinion, you had a question I could hijack to give out that opinion, and its RVS where the point is to get as much material out as possible, so why not provide some of my own. You're right in your analysis of us as players, though: I'm fucking terrible at early game analysis and doll is pretty good at it. Now, on to the question you asked. I think it has greater-than-normal potential for both. Unusual actions like that can provide clarity from the responses or muddy the waters. Because regardless of how pointless the information is, it's going to get some kind of reaction, especially when you go out of the way to ask other players about it to get responses.
PPE x whothefuckknowsivebeentypingforforever: JEEPERS CREEPERS YA'LL.
Post by: Pozzai on May 31, 2017, 02:03:17 am
Ironically if you're lying about your theme Jack, that would make me feel better than if you're telling the truth.
Scum would be the ones with most information about how much effect, if any themes have on the game, as they have the most information to pool together, so I consider people who feel 'okay' about releasing that type of information this early in the game, to be more scummy than towny, because as town you'd be more inclined to be fearful for what negatives could come of it.
Will themes flip alongside roles and does OP usually give themes a gameplay effect or merely flavour?
Post by: Tea on May 31, 2017, 03:10:33 am
In 2009-2010 I played a lot of IRC mafia on XylBot + forum mafia on MafiaScum, and since 2013 or so I've been flitting around the internet looking for a mafia subforum to call home.
I don't find Pozzai's or Lenglon's votes alignment indicative. I think that you voted me because of how you decided to go about your question wall, but that the mindset behind the wall is important. The rest of your post about me beyond the vote makes me feel uncomfortable because the loaded premise --> blatant reaction test question is just ... super inorganic? Like, the wagon and the LET'S DEMAND AN INSTANT RESPONSE TO THE WAGON in tandem is just..distracting from letting me find what I /do/ think is alignment indicative, and is making the most important thing about me to the thread this super artificial thing.
Tea: Pozzai made a strong case against you. How do you feel about having two votes on you?
Was your wall of questions written in the order that you posted it in?
Post by: Lenglon on May 31, 2017, 03:25:32 am
TBF: Maybe and maybe not. In BYOR14 it very much was, in toony's and revolution it was just generic RP (and in toony's case was a lie because I identified as She like normal but I had been assigned a male character). in witch's coven and my BM games I didnt RP at all, and finally in lonely prince I did very little RP but it actually was in character.
Im pretty sure thats every game Ive played so... yeah. its been a claim once, and that time it was distinctive to those who knew who I was RPing. So you should be able to extrapolate that it only means something if I am being distinctive in the RP. as a rule of thumb my generic RP text color is mediumorchid, but I do also use that for some characters so...
heh, maybe? you'll probably only know when it is a claim, not when it isnt?
4mask: *shrugs* okay. I dont see a question so... whatever?
Jack: I admit to being confused as to why you claimed your theme so early. Could you tell me your view on claiming flavor, rolenames, and abilitynames in general in a BYOR like this?
Post by: Lenglon on May 31, 2017, 03:28:56 am
I guess it usually is a softclaim after all? I really am just kinda doing whatever seems right at the time.
Post by: Pozzai on May 31, 2017, 03:43:11 am
I don't find Pozzai's or Lenglon's votes alignment indicative. I think that you voted me because of how you decided to go about your question wall, but that the mindset behind the wall is important. The rest of your post about me beyond the vote makes me feel uncomfortable because the loaded premise --> blatant reaction test question is just ... super inorganic? Like, the wagon and the LET'S DEMAND AN INSTANT RESPONSE TO THE WAGON in tandem is just..distracting from letting me find what I /do/ think is alignment indicative, and is making the most important thing about me to the thread this super artificial thing.
Tea: Pozzai made a strong case against you. How do you feel about having two votes on you?
Was your wall of questions written in the order that you posted it in?
Oooooh ! *grabs popcorn*
Fight, fight, fight, fight!
Post by: Tea on May 31, 2017, 03:48:51 am
Ironically if you're lying about your theme Jack, that would make me feel better than if you're telling the truth.I'm curious why you brought this up prior to Jack elaborating beyond "because."
My perception of what Jack has claimed about his theme is that the thought processes reflected up to and including the doll question were probably ~completely from pregame and that his role PM gave him no real reason to not want to jump in with that. I do think an easy way for scum to appear town is to articulate pure, pre-scum role PM thoughts - but I dunno that I feel that's any more likely than chance.
Post by: Tea on May 31, 2017, 03:52:48 am
Oooooh ! *grabs popcorn*Uhhh. That's what you got out of my post?
Fight, fight, fight, fight!
Post by: Pozzai on May 31, 2017, 03:55:04 am
Ironically if you're lying about your theme Jack, that would make me feel better than if you're telling the truth.I'm curious why you brought this up prior to Jack elaborating beyond "because."
My perception of what Jack has claimed about his theme is that the thought processes reflected up to and including the doll question were probably ~completely from pregame and that his role PM gave him no real reason to not want to jump in with that. I do think an easy way for scum to appear town is to articulate pure, pre-scum role PM thoughts - but I dunno that I feel that's any more likely than chance.
Even if planned pre-game, I feel like when you'd actually receive your information you'd still do a small stop and reconsider the options. In closed setups pre-planned stuff doesn't always turn out the same way as you'd planned.
I feel both the whole "making a full list to interact with people" and the seemingly lack of any pause in the actions are pointing more in the direction of scum than town, albeit not a "well lockscum now to find the remaining x mafias" kind of way.
Why are you so interested in small potentially irrelevant leans this early when you've not seen how far I'd press it?
Post by: Pozzai on May 31, 2017, 03:59:37 am
Your day been okay?
Post by: Tea on May 31, 2017, 04:12:07 am
Why are you so interested in small potentially irrelevant leans this early when you've not seen how far I'd press it?I'm not sure what this is in reference to?
I had a good day. Bit sleepy/grumpy at the moment though.
Post by: Jack A T on May 31, 2017, 04:32:06 am
Jack A T: Oh come one now, I'm pretty sure you knew I would answer that question, especially when you ask how I feel about you asking that question. I got my thoughts about because why the hell not? I had an opinion, you had a question I could hijack to give out that opinion, and its RVS where the point is to get as much material out as possible, so why not provide some of my own. You're right in your analysis of us as players, though: I'm fucking terrible at early game analysis and doll is pretty good at it.4maskwolf: I had a feeling you might answer it, but I also recognized a countervailing force: the (strangely strong) norm against answering questions directed to others. Your framing of your answer as a response to the question to doll indicates a willingness to violate that norm, a willingness that indicated some feeling of significance. Your response, in general, is noted.
As for asking you and doll, not quite my intent. I asked doll because doll is the only person I know who has seriously analyzed pre-game chatter, and I asked you because you had posted recently.
Scum would be the ones with most information about how much effect, if any themes have on the game, as they have the most information to pool together, so I consider people who feel 'okay' about releasing that type of information this early in the game, to be more scummy than towny, because as town you'd be more inclined to be fearful for what negatives could come of it.Pozzai: Prior Webadict BYOR games have not included the theme element, so I cannot say much. I would expect, however, some sort of gameplay effect. As for my comfort with releasing my theme, I will explain later.
Will themes flip alongside roles and does OP usually give themes a gameplay effect or merely flavour?
In a complicated game with multiple third parties (Webadict's BYORs always have them), what approach to information management and control would you take as mafia? As town?
I feel both the whole "making a full list to interact with people" and the seemingly lack of any pause in the actions are pointing more in the direction of scum than town, albeit not a "well lockscum now to find the remaining x mafias" kind of way.Full list RVS is rather common behaviour in Bay 12, and helps me calibrate my reads of everyone. Can you explain what you mean about the lack of pause?
Jack: I admit to being confused as to why you claimed your theme so early. Could you tell me your view on claiming flavor, rolenames, and abilitynames in general in a BYOR like this?Lenglon: I will explain my theme claim reason later. In general, my approach to flavour/name/ability name claims in BYORs is quite situational, but always cost/benefit analysis-based. Generally, I want to add to the town pool of information without giving too much to the scum. Ability names are rarely claimed outside of full-on roleclaims, as they often come quite close to saying what the ability is. Role names, however, I am more comfortable revealing in most cases: unless they are Shakerag imitations, it is generally tough to predict powers from them. Their value to the town, however, is usually quite limited.
I don't find Pozzai's or Lenglon's votes alignment indicative. I think that you voted me because of how you decided to go about your question wall, but that the mindset behind the wall is important. The rest of your post about me beyond the vote makes me feel uncomfortable because the loaded premise --> blatant reaction test question is just ... super inorganic? Like, the wagon and the LET'S DEMAND AN INSTANT RESPONSE TO THE WAGON in tandem is just..distracting from letting me find what I /do/ think is alignment indicative, and is making the most important thing about me to the thread this super artificial thing.Tea: The wall of questions was written in loosely linear order, with editing and adjustments. Pozzai was placed at the bottom for some separation from the more RVSey preceding questions, and doll (and by extension 4mask) was placed at the top for flow.
Was your wall of questions written in the order that you posted it in?
I voted you not because of how I decided to handle the mass questions, but because Pozzai voted for you. Multiple votes can generate some interesting reactions, both from the target and from those around, and Bay 12 has tended too far against placing multiple votes on the same person in RVS (making the "V" in RVS even less meaningful). This generated interesting reactions. Notably, you seem to put more weight on a facially ridiculous RVS vote than it is due.
What makes this vote, which you recognize is absurd, "the most important thing about [you]" in the thread? Do you fear that it will stay in place?
My perception of what Jack has claimed about his theme is that the thought processes reflected up to and including the doll question were probably ~completely from pregame and that his role PM gave him no real reason to not want to jump in with that. I do think an easy way for scum to appear town is to articulate pure, pre-scum role PM thoughts - but I dunno that I feel that's any more likely than chance.All questions were written and almost all ideas were developed after the game started, with full awareness of my PM.
Webadict: Will themes flip alongside roles?
Post by: Pozzai on May 31, 2017, 04:50:44 am
Scum would be the ones with most information about how much effect, if any themes have on the game, as they have the most information to pool together, so I consider people who feel 'okay' about releasing that type of information this early in the game, to be more scummy than towny, because as town you'd be more inclined to be fearful for what negatives could come of it.Pozzai: Prior Webadict BYOR games have not included the theme element, so I cannot say much. I would expect, however, some sort of gameplay effect. As for my comfort with releasing my theme, I will explain later.
Will themes flip alongside roles and does OP usually give themes a gameplay effect or merely flavour?
In a complicated game with multiple third parties (Webadict's BYORs always have them), what approach to information management and control would you take as mafia? As town?I feel both the whole "making a full list to interact with people" and the seemingly lack of any pause in the actions are pointing more in the direction of scum than town, albeit not a "well lockscum now to find the remaining x mafias" kind of way.Full list RVS is rather common behaviour in Bay 12, and helps me calibrate my reads of everyone. Can you explain what you mean about the lack of pause?
It highly depends on exactly what information I have. As town I tend to mull things over a lot, release what I consider acceptable or important. I tend to always consider worst case scenarioes where SOUP roles are in play and analyse what lengths I can go to without compromising myself or other towns due to giving out too much information.
As scum I tend to verbalise the concerns I have more in scumchat that in gamechat, always looking for ways to utilize them the best(read, move close to gamebreaking :P)
If you meant "information" more as in terms of reads and links. I generally trust my townreads more than my scumreads and trust that I can manage to read the more dangerous factions of 3P as just being "not town", I tend to note down, but not overly discuss anti-alignments but that will be largely irrelevant if it's a bunch of solo 3P.
In terms of the "lack of pause" I feel like if I preplanned something, got my role pm and something in it described a thematic influence, I'd reconsider my options before leading on with my plan.
You posted it fairly quickly after the role pms went out and the game started, hence the small time between the post and pregame stuff, I would consider a lack of secondguessing(pause).
Post by: Lenglon on May 31, 2017, 04:54:01 am
Pozzai: You got a D0 inspect of a survivor, and have no reason to doubt the inspect result in any way, when do you claim this and when would/wouldnt you lynch the survivor?
Post by: Pozzai on May 31, 2017, 05:08:32 am
Pozzai: You got a D0 inspect of a survivor, and have no reason to doubt the inspect result in any way, when do you claim this and when would/wouldnt you lynch the survivor?
Is that all my role does?
If yes:
I think I'd not really worry about it till day3/day4 or potentially if the target is being lynched and I have a strong feeling about another person being scum. Unless any flips reveal a way the check could be tampered with I'd never lynch them untill F3, and then only if I were 99%+ certain the 3rd person is town, and as such can deduct the "survivor" had an inbuilt rolecheck tamper.
The reason I'd wait till later days is that if that's all my role can do, I'd rather die with the information and take a bullet for stronger roles, than out it and reveal to scum that I'm not a priority target.
If no:
I'd wait to see if I could influence the game otherwise with my role and make actions depending on that, analyse what action would give town and me the most information potentially related to the survivor to work with, but still not out early.
Post by: Jack A T on May 31, 2017, 05:09:35 am
As for the speed of posting, I've had a lot of practice. It used to take a lot longer for to pump out quasi-useful and unusual calibrating RVS questions. I will not comment yet on why I revealed my theme name, though.
Lenglon: I'm not sure if this quite answers your question, but I think role names, if public, are of more direct informational value than theme names at the moment (though there is wide variance). This is primarily because we know what a role is, and have some idea of the relationship between role mechanics and role names. There is a stronger base of knowledge to use in interpretation.
Post by: Pozzai on May 31, 2017, 05:10:01 am
Post by: Pozzai on May 31, 2017, 05:13:38 am
Pozzai: Thank you. I'm not familiar with the SOUP acronym. Can you clarify?
As for the speed of posting, I've had a lot of practice. It used to take a lot longer for to pump out quasi-useful and unusual calibrating RVS questions. I will not comment yet on why I revealed my theme name, though.
Might be lingo from the places I played early.
A souper is a role/ability that allows scum to kill (often) as many people they wish in the night by correctly guessing the correct role for the given player.
Each correct guess kills the target and allows them to make another guess, an incorrect guess reveals the souper/a random mafia at day start.
Basically it's a counter to people simply claiming their role. Albeit this is rarely seen in closed setups because lets be fair. When every town can be every role imaginable, your ability to guess it correctly is very limited :P
Post by: TolyK on May 31, 2017, 05:16:39 am
And so it starts.
A claim: My theme is the balance of threat (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balance_of_threat), a concept from my field of study, international relations. Yes, my theme is the apparent basis of the title flabort did not get. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164260.msg7470311#msg7470311)
Why am I claiming this? Because.
TolyK: I claimed my theme. What does this tell you about the game?
Alright, so I read the article linked, thought a bit...
IMO, this doesn't change alignment distribution, since I'm "vanilla" town (no wincon bullshit :p) and thus unlikely to be "special" in that way. Given my role's apparent power, it seems that the power level isn't insane. Currently, I also have a feeling that things can escalate very quickly.
Do you want to do a (literally harmless, in terms of actions) experiment, Jack?
PPE: 4 messages, yikes. :D
Pozzai: I think that means you have >10 posts.
PFP, just woke up.
Post by: Lenglon on May 31, 2017, 05:21:47 am
How does this affect your viewpoint?
Post by: Lenglon on May 31, 2017, 05:27:46 am
Post by: TolyK on May 31, 2017, 05:34:25 am
Can the same be said for scum and town, though? Town wants to give information to others, but not too much too fast because of potential danger. Scum wants to appear like they're giving relevant info, while actually minimizing usefulness. How do we differentiate?Ironically if you're lying about your theme Jack, that would make me feel better than if you're telling the truth.I'm curious why you brought this up prior to Jack elaborating beyond "because."
My perception of what Jack has claimed about his theme is that the thought processes reflected up to and including the doll question were probably ~completely from pregame and that his role PM gave him no real reason to not want to jump in with that. I do think an easy way for scum to appear town is to articulate pure, pre-scum role PM thoughts - but I dunno that I feel that's any more likely than chance.
Post by: Lenglon on May 31, 2017, 05:37:11 am
You are town in a BYOR, but have an ability that changes your alignment to match the target's.
Do you play as town or as survivor pre-ability-use? who do you use that ability on and when?
Post by: TolyK on May 31, 2017, 05:48:58 am
Tolyk:In that case I'd potentially just side with whoever is winning in the end... yes, I'm selfish. But that's literally the only thing I can do...
You are town in a BYOR, but have an ability that changes your alignment to match the target's.
Do you play as town or as survivor pre-ability-use? who do you use that ability on and when?
I'd scumhunt to a degree, but be not-very-pushy, since I plan on surviving. The role formulation is probably better than a pure survivor, in game terms, since it makes me want to be active to win. It's also an inspect, basically. So I'd try to find mafia players (or, preferably, SK's so that I could out them first :P), not tell them everything (duh), and see what my best chances of winning are (likely, with the mafia).
Balancing "living" and "using information" (and "giving information to town") would be pretty hard.
By the way, that sounds like something higher in power level than what I have, so my base assumption is that you have some better abilities than on average, and thus you're less likely to be town in my book, Lenglon. Just a heads-up. Do you think I've made a too rash decision here? (I'd vote you here as a pressure vote, but I'd rather not.)
Post by: Lenglon on May 31, 2017, 05:58:51 am
Do you have a mechanical reason for not making an actual vote against me or is it a policy one? (I am fine with you waiting to answer this until later during D1 so long as it does eventually get answered.)
Post by: TolyK on May 31, 2017, 06:09:52 am
About not voting - I'd rather not disclose that ATM. Indeed, ask me again later. I'll probably answer after the experiment with Jack, if he accepts.
Post by: webadict on May 31, 2017, 07:07:49 am
Webadict: Will themes flip alongside roles?No. Themes were added for flavorings roles and the game. I threw them in a list and added how I liked. Someone got something from it.
Post by: doll on May 31, 2017, 07:19:52 am
I'll explain why I can tell you this in a bit
Spoiler: Replies to RVS (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: RVS Questions of One's Own (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: The Unique One and His Theme (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: The Secret of Selling Anything II: So Fucking Much Cocai- Caffeine (click to show/hide)
Post by: doll on May 31, 2017, 07:20:37 am
gonna have to wait a bit for me to post, it won't be short
Post by: Persus13 on May 31, 2017, 07:55:02 am
Also, this game has hammers, so please be careful about bandwagons on people.
Jack A T
Persus13: I haven't played online Mafia for a few months. How will this impact your view of my play, if at all?Nothing major, but you probably won't be as familiar with the newest players as some others. So my view on your interactions with them will be affected by that.
4maskwolf
Jack A T: What I make of it is that this game is going to be a headache that makes me long for GBU 2.Man that game was awhile ago. What about that game was headache inducing? Also, why do you bring up that game all the time?
Doll
My role is pretty genki!!And the rest of the OP was my fault. Did you try to be witty and send in a musical theme too?
I'll explain why I can tell you this in a bitSpoiler: Replies to RVS (click to show/hide)
Lenglon: You've been pretty active, why haven't you asked me a question?
OSG: I know I've played with you before, but I can't remember when. How would you evaluate your Mafia experience.
Fallacy of Urist: What's your favorite mafia game on Bay12 you've played? Why?
Shakerag: How would you compare the player makeup of this BYOR to the last one?
Post by: doll on May 31, 2017, 08:21:43 am
I'll explain why I can tell you this in a bit
Spoiler: Replies to RVS (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: RVS Questions of One's Own (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: The Unique One and His Theme (click to show/hide)
Eh, I'll wait just a bit before full claiming.
For now though:
1) I'm dying tonight
2) I'm unblockable
3) My role is very strong
4) I suspect that there may exist daygame powers which can snipe me before I get to night 1
5) That includes voting control powers
6) Therefore, anyone who votes me today is madcrazy suspicious if I don't get all my fireworks off
7) Therefore, don't vote me if you are town
8) I'm probably going to get daykilled or something anyway
9) Jokes on you scum, you I actually need to make it to Day 2 and couldn't think of a good way to dodge the scumkill
10) Have fun with the wifom, nano desu
Post by: origamiscienceguy on May 31, 2017, 08:26:31 am
I'll come Putnam claim my theme. It was music. Turbo's probably why there was music in the op.
Post by: origamiscienceguy on May 31, 2017, 08:27:22 am
Anyways, I'll answer Eva questions during myncomputer time. And I'll use my phone for comments and stuff.
Post by: doll on May 31, 2017, 08:29:30 am
That's some pretty illegible auto-correct you've got there, my man.
Post by: TolyK on May 31, 2017, 08:55:37 am
<words>That was difficult to read through.
TolyKObviously, can't take your guarantee at face value. Especially the Town part, which you don't guarantee, anyways. ;)
Well, you're TolyK, so this level of silly is just about appropriate for you.
Now, I'm town, and I guarantee you my role is an absurdity and a black hole of infinite energy and activity.
If you're a low power role, does that mean low power is the norm and I'm an exception?
Does this mean that senpai loves me, kashira?
Assuming neither of us are lying, it can be one of several things:
- you have a large upside and downside to your role, so while it's high-variance, the mean power is approx. the same.
- there's a hidden rule (role or theme) that modifies someone's behavior.
- one of us is the exception to the rule.
I can revive one of the people I kill. Logically, that means that at least one of my kills should be on a role it's worth getting the word out about. Also, I guess they can't really get scumkilled on that night where I kill them, eh? That's sort of like a superior protect, yone.That kind of ability would potentially be useful.
Does this mean that certain types of high powered town roles should claim now for my and their and therefore town's benefit?
I don't see how high-power players would prefer to be dead to your hand (an unknown) rather than probably alive.
Eh, I'll wait just a bit before full claiming.I'll take this as "I'm spewing nonsense to get people focused on me".
For now though:
1) I'm dying tonight
2) I'm unblockable
3) My role is very strong
4) I suspect that there may exist daygame powers which can snipe me before I get to night 1
5) That includes voting control powers
6) Therefore, anyone who votes me today is madcrazy suspicious if I don't get all my fireworks off
7) Therefore, don't vote me if you are town
8) I'm probably going to get daykilled or something anyway
9) Jokes on you scum, you I actually need to make it to Day 2 and couldn't think of a good way to dodge the scumkill
10) Have fun with the wifom, nano desu
Why do you want to claim on D1 again? You've basically went and said "you should totally shoot me, but you can't shoot me, haHA"... you can defer to answer this later, if you want, of course. But currently I'll go with my hypothesis.
My problem is that you're trying to get other power roles to claim. We don't know anything at all right now, besides what each of our own roles are.
Also, your posts are a bit stream-of-consciousness, doll. That makes them hard to read. :P
Post by: doll on May 31, 2017, 09:06:03 am
My problem is that you're trying to get other power roles to claim.Well, I mean, yeah.
What's the most common power role in mafia games?
I'll give you a hint: it's mafia-scum.
Oh, and what does and doesn't qualify as a power role depends a lot on how well my vortex of stimulants will benefit them, so it's pretty well in my interests to scope out honest power roles before I do
We don't know anything at all right now, besides what each of our own roles are.You know that I'm claiming D1, for a start.
The fact that I've laid that down both gives you a reason to defer suspicion of myself to later days, and a reason to trust what I say, so long as, again, I turn up dead on D2.
I can see how it might appear that this is yet another gambit.
Sure, it might be, but I can't see myself doing it as anything other than town with a very short activity horizon (which, incidentally, is what I am except I'm also actually honest. Oh, and I have post-death role powers)
Or some wacky third party, but hey, I'll be dead so you can see that I'm town for yourself, nano ne
Also, your posts are a bit stream-of-consciousness, doll. That makes them hard to read. :PAh, also my posts are hard to read.
And stream of consciousness, hai. But that just makes it easier to read into me, yone.
Anyway, I'm being honest.
Since I know I'm clear, activity focused on me is wasted, and that means you're not doing much productive, which is bad in my eyes. That's bad for you, see, since I can kill you, and ah, well, you can't kill me because, aha. I'm going to be ingesting many times my bodyweight in acutely toxic substances tonight, so go do something useful instead so I don't kill you, eh?
Post by: FallacyofUrist on May 31, 2017, 09:12:44 am
Fallacy of Urist: What's your favorite mafia game on Bay12 you've played? Why?*reminisces*
Did I spell that right? Anyhow... Flabort's High Powered BYOR 2 is second. If I wasn't killed by somebody giving me a "you can't win" role and stopping me from acting on only Night 2... bah, humbug. As a result, Mafia Marathon is my favorite game. 23 mini-setups, almost a year to play. It was my favorite because it was fun, and it took a while to end, and it was well designed... seriously, Tomasque is a master at mafia design. I'm honored to be working with him on Odd Mafia.
Return question: Is there much benefit to that RVS question?
FallacyOfUristWhat, expecting me to answer? How about this: I'll tell you what my role isn't. For Day 1: Seto Kaiba. That is, that's not my role.
What's your role, FoU-chan?
10) Have fun with the wifom, nano desu
Now, the question is, whether you're scum trying to get role information out of this, or town trying to see how I react to blatant role fishing.
Return question: Pick two of these five questions to answer.
1. Are you willing to provide a list of Japanese honorifics and what they mean to this forum?
2. Does your theme have anything to do with peacocks?
3. If you had a night kill that only works on cult leaders and survivors, would you use it in lieu of your normal actions?
4. If you had a self-revive that only works during the first two cycles, would you make an effort to direct the scum kill to yourself?
5. Rate each of these questions in terms of usefulness on a scale from 1 to 5 where 1 is the highest and 5 is the lowest.
FallacyOfUrist: What is the best way to place your vote in RVS? Should multiple players vote for the same target in RVS?On a player who made an answer you think is scummy. Yes, within reason. More pressure means more slipping up, but I wouldn't want somebody to be hammered or lynched based on RVS votes.
Return question: Do you think what I just said is true?
~~~
I think that's all the questions addressed to me. Did I miss any?
Post by: doll on May 31, 2017, 09:57:18 am
Well, you know that I'm not scum because I'll flip on D2 when I die from an OD and subsequent withdrawal, so I guess the second?FallacyOfUristWhat, expecting me to answer? How about this: I'll tell you what my role isn't. For Day 1: Seto Kaiba. That is, that's not my role.
What's your role, FoU-chan?
10) Have fun with the wifom, nano desu
Now, the question is, whether you're scum trying to get role information out of this, or town trying to see how I react to blatant role fishing.
Anyway, your response is awful and gives me nothing. Unfortunately, that's not outside of your meta. However, it's not what I want, since I need a strong read on you by the night, desu.
Return question: Pick two of these five questions to answer.1. An insubstantial list, I guess. There are a lot of japanese honorifics, and some of the usage I've adopted here is pretty damn peculiar outside of denpa singers, some of the more questionable seiyuus, and A-pop idols. Briefly:
1. Are you willing to provide a list of Japanese honorifics and what they mean to this forum?
2. Does your theme have anything to do with peacocks?
3. If you had a night kill that only works on cult leaders and survivors, would you use it in lieu of your normal actions?
4. If you had a self-revive that only works during the first two cycles, would you make an effort to direct the scum kill to yourself?
desu is a general sentence ending
nano is a general expression peculiar to young girls trying to be cute
ka indicates a (hard) question (sou ka would be 'is that so?')
ne indicates a soft question (sou ne could be 'isn't it?'or 'that's so, yes?') - equivalent to uptalk in english
yo indicates an assertion and raises modality (daijoubo yo could be 'it will be fine, you know)
dawa sort of indicates exasperation, it'd take more space to explain this one because it's used in different context mostly and I'm sort of loaning it in the usual way you do for this sort of thing
kashira is mostly getting used here to indicate my reflection over what I've just said (a state of wondering, as it were)
2. I've claimed my theme. I could easily see peacocks as being used in denpa, outside of their maleness, but only in overwhelming quantity.
3. No, I'd use it as well as my normal actions because I have infinite actions (assuming I kill myself by going into a negative amount of my finite resource)
4. I'd just take aggressive control of the town by posting an awful lot in a conventional and productive way, with no effort made to dodge the scum kill. If you play well and a lot and you don't try to dodge the kill, it's pretty likely that you'll move the kill onto yourself if it were to be possible to do so without compromising your or the town's position.
FoU
There's no need to scumhunt me, I'm dying by my own hand before D2.
Go do something productive instead.
Post by: TolyK on May 31, 2017, 10:01:33 am
Post by: doll on May 31, 2017, 10:02:37 am
Post by: TheDarkStar on May 31, 2017, 10:06:30 am
TheDarkStar
Do I need to worry about your lethargy in the daygame this time?
Do you have an information role?
Do you have a killing role?
Are you a third party?
1. No.
2-4. Why are you rolefishing?
TheDarkStar: What value, if any, is there in having an RVS question for everyone if not all of the questions are useful?
Other than generating discussion, none. Once people have started talking, it's even pretty much useless. I don't like RVS particularly much, though.
Jack A T: If you were completely kill/lynch immune, when would you claim it?
origamiscienceguy: If you were a serial killer and had a daykill, who would you kill today?
doll: In your opinion, what is the most important thing to look for in someone's posts to get a read on them?
Shakerag: If you knew that the theme you submitted had a clear impact on your role, would you claim the theme?
doll: Why claim that you're going to die tonight rather than keeping quiet about it to try to waste one of the scum's kills?
Post by: doll on May 31, 2017, 10:20:55 am
2-4. To find scum. You should try it sometime.TheDarkStar
Do I need to worry about your lethargy in the daygame this time?
Do you have an information role?
Do you have a killing role?
Are you a third party?
1. No.
2-4. Why are you rolefishing?
doll: In your opinion, what is the most important thing to look for in someone's posts to get a read on them?The strongest town indicator is a sense of authenticity.
For scum, broadly speaking what you are looking for is the fact that they don't want all the information in the game out on the front page, but do also have some sense to what it is that they are doing (i.e. they aren't totally useless, which is more anti-town than scum as it were). In general, this is seen either by: they assume that someone is town in their tonality etc. without a good reason to do so, they don't pursue a lead they should, or they don't seem to have a plan in place or have given thought for when they die and town loses whatever is in their head but not down on the whiteboard already, so to say.
doll: Why claim that you're going to die tonight rather than keeping quiet about it to try to waste one of the scum's kills?Well, I was thinking that I had to be alive to do everything, but actually I think that that's not true so I guess I could have played a normal Day 1.
However, I really need to get past RVS and sort of guide the town and line up scum, since I am actually slinging a lot of kills etc. Though, if I can act while dead, I've got two unblockable kills I can use at any point in the game. Still, it's better to kill people early than late.
That said, a lot of why I claimed is to galvanize players into getting me (and my N1 kills) off of their back and to generate a lot of activity external to myself (since I'm clear).
So, uh, get active.
Or I'll kill you, yeah?
Post by: doll on May 31, 2017, 10:26:25 am
At the moment you're all interacting with me because I'm the loudest and the most active.
Interact with each other instead, kudasai. That's more useful to me in the longrun, since I'll just assume continued attempts to hunt me are a disinterest in the general game of the day as it stands.
Post by: 4maskwolf on May 31, 2017, 10:31:30 am
b]4maskwolf[/b]I'm pretty sure that's the first time I've mentioned it in years? And nothing from you was headache-inducing, the daygame was headache-inducing in that game, which is what I was going for in my comment to Jack.Jack A T: What I make of it is that this game is going to be a headache that makes me long for GBU 2.Man that game was awhile ago. What about that game was headache inducing? Also, why do you bring up that game all the time?
4maskwolfAll right, you know what? Fine. I'll trust you. You're town and you're working in the best interests of the town, and you're going to do something tonight to benefit the town as a whole. I don't like doing this, but trust is important in mafia, and if I have to trust someone I'll trust the person who is going to be clearly lying if they don't follow through on what they said.
Is this GENKI!! enough for you, 4mask-chan?
What's your theme?
Are you going to treat me like town?
Now, what's my theme? My theme is Chaos. That's it. Don't read too much into it, given that there's no guarantee it affects anything in the game.
PPE: TheDarkStar: Isn't generating discussion the entire point of RVS? Discussion gives the town a basis to go off of into future days and allows the game to progress naturally into the more meaty game phases.
Post by: FallacyofUrist on May 31, 2017, 10:35:18 am
FoUIf you're still alive D2, everybody's going to come after you hard. Including me. With that said... if you don't get suspicious, I'll be fine putting you onto a lower priority.
There's no need to scumhunt me, I'm dying by my own hand before D2.
Go do something productive instead.
That said, saying "don't scum hunt me" is pretty suspicious... if not exactly suspicious in a normal manner.
*muses* Jester gambit?
~~~
TheDarkStar: Isn't generating discussion the entire point of RVS? Discussion gives the town a basis to go off of into future days and allows the game to progress naturally into the more meaty game phases.I'll steal that question. Yes, partially. The other part of it is hopefully causing scum to slip up and act scummy in a question answer, giving town a target.
Return question: What do you think of question stealing(answering somebody else's question)? Does it benefit the town? Fuel RVS?
~~~
Post by: 4maskwolf on May 31, 2017, 10:37:28 am
I think it's productive to getting more information out and thus is inherently useful, especially if you have an opinion on a question that's being asked. I mean, I already did it once, why would I do it unless I thought it was useful?TheDarkStar: Isn't generating discussion the entire point of RVS? Discussion gives the town a basis to go off of into future days and allows the game to progress naturally into the more meaty game phases.I'll steal that question. Yes, partially. The other part of it is hopefully causing scum to slip up and act scummy in a question answer, giving town a target.
Return question: What do you think of question stealing(answering somebody else's question)? Does it benefit the town? Fuel RVS?
~~~
...don't answer that question.
Now, what do you think is a scummy answer to an RVS question?
Post by: Jack A T on May 31, 2017, 10:40:47 am
Themes were added for flavorings roles and the game. I threw them in a list and added how I liked. Someone got something from it.Well, there goes that idea.
Why did I claim my theme name? For good RVS content.
How pre-planned was it? Not very.
What did I get out of it? Some RVS content.
The Joys of RVS
Jack: I think theme names are more signifigant than role names at this time.Lenglon: Even before I read Wuba's post, it did not. Disagreement without reason means little. If taken as hinting at a role reason, the post comes off as...empty, for lack of a better word. Why try this?
How does this affect your viewpoint?
Do you want to do a (literally harmless, in terms of actions) experiment, Jack?TolyK: Let's hear it, if it is still relevant.
Pozzai: I can safely say that we don't tend to have soupers around here, at least.
doll:
Spoiler: super secret do not read (click to show/hide)
Fallacy: For the first question, I generally don't consider actual scum voting to be part of RVS, but sure. For the second question, pressure on the target can be helpful, but the reactions of those around can be quite interesting as well.What is the best way to place your vote in RVS? Should multiple players vote for the same target in RVS?On a player who made an answer you think is scummy. Yes, within reason. More pressure means more slipping up, but I wouldn't want somebody to be hammered or lynched based on RVS votes.
Return question: Do you think what I just said is true?
Jack A T: If you were completely kill/lynch immune, when would you claim it?TDS: As town (I doubt most other alignments would ever be allowed anywhere near that power set), lynch immunity before being lynched, or at massclaim. Kill immunity...massclaim. Both components are most useful when unknown, and claiming lynch immunity too early will distract from the scum. Both may help at the puzzle-solving post-massclaim stage.
Also, this game has hammers, so please be careful about bandwagons on people.Persus13: Not a fan of the Teawagon, I see. Would you have posted this if there was no RVS wagon? Do you fear that Tea may receive 5 more votes carelessly?
FallacyofUrist: Perhaps something changed in the last few months, but when I last played, there was a social norm against question stealing. What does violating that norm mean to you when you examine a player's behaviour?
Post by: FallacyofUrist on May 31, 2017, 10:46:20 am
An answer written from scum's perspective. One that makes assumptions that only scum would make. Inherent knowledge that scum has, reflexively used as part of the question's answer in a subtle manner.
Of course, the difficulty in finding scum in this manner is that scum are trying to act like town, and clues of that type may be hard to detect. However...
In order to act like town, hypothetically, scum players would have to do more thinking to answer a question. Looking for a question that's well thought out... no, that has less spontaneity to it, could also be scummy.
~~~
Ooh, a ninja!
Fallacy: For the first question, I generally don't consider actual scum voting to be part of RVS, but sure. [1] For the second question, pressure on the target can be helpful, but the reactions of those around can be quite interesting as well.[1]: I would imagine so. Hm. I'll have to remember that.
FallacyofUrist: Perhaps something changed in the last few months, but when I last played, there was a social norm against question stealing. [2] What does violating that norm mean to you when you examine a player's behaviour?
[2]: Nothing, really. It gets more information out there. Well, actually, doing that means you're answering more questions and whatnot. Being active. I'd actually apply a slight town lean to that behavior.
Post by: Persus13 on May 31, 2017, 10:50:42 am
Its not too surprising from webadict. How are you pronouncing desu, by the way, correctly, or the teenage girl version?...what did I just listen to.It seems like either you were the only person who listened to the music, or this is somehow par for the course.
Persus13Actually, I sent in the youtube link at the beginning of the post. Its the musical theme for the bad guy of the film Once Upon a Time in the West, composed by Ennio Morricone.
I take it your theme was 'western' and that you didn't specify how it should be used.
I was surprised to learn that I don't have a photo of a doll in a cowboy hat on me, I thought I did, otherwise I would have changed my avatar.
Do you think that themes are really going to matter in this game at all outside of how much fun we have from the flavor etc.? I'm leaning towards saying they won't, desu.
Webadict said themes might have an impact on roles as well, so they're probably going to be more important than just flavor.
At the moment you're all interacting with me because I'm the loudest and the most active.Kind of hard to interact with people who haven't posted since I've woken up.
Interact with each other instead, kudasai. That's more useful to me in the longrun, since I'll just assume continued attempts to hunt me are a disinterest in the general game of the day as it stands.
Fallacy of Urist
Its a conversation starter, I get an idea of what you like about Mafia, and its a way of asking "what's your mafia experience" without doing so directly.Fallacy of Urist: What's your favorite mafia game on Bay12 you've played? Why?*reminisces*
Did I spell that right? Anyhow... Flabort's High Powered BYOR 2 is second. If I wasn't killed by somebody giving me a "you can't win" role and stopping me from acting on only Night 2... bah, humbug. As a result, Mafia Marathon is my favorite game. 23 mini-setups, almost a year to play. It was my favorite because it was fun, and it took a while to end, and it was well designed... seriously, Tomasque is a master at mafia design. I'm honored to be working with him on Odd Mafia.
Return question: Is there much benefit to that RVS question?
If you're still alive D2, everybody's going to come after you hard. Including me. With that said... if you don't get suspicious, I'll be fine putting you onto a lower priority.This is pretty normal play for Doll D1. Go read the last Paranormal if you want to see Doll's play in the past.
That said, saying "don't scum hunt me" is pretty suspicious... if not exactly suspicious in a normal manner.
*muses* Jester gambit?
4maskwolf:
Time is slow here, so two years ago is still recent for me.b]4maskwolf[/b]I'm pretty sure that's the first time I've mentioned it in years? And nothing from you was headache-inducing, the daygame was headache-inducing in that game, which is what I was going for in my comment to Jack.Jack A T: What I make of it is that this game is going to be a headache that makes me long for GBU 2.Man that game was awhile ago. What about that game was headache inducing? Also, why do you bring up that game all the time?
Now, what's my theme? My theme is Chaos. That's it. Don't read too much into it, given that there's no guarantee it affects anything in the game.
Judging by past BYORs, your theme accurately describes the entire game. So why are you attempting to minimize it?
Jack A T:
If there wasn't an RVS wagon I wouldn't have posted that, as the Teawagon was what made me check to see if this game had hammers. I thought unlikely Tea would have been hammered Day 1, but I've seen games where people accidentally hammered later in the game because they didn't realize the game had them, and it lost the game or hurt town. So I posted to raise awareness of the possibility.Also, this game has hammers, so please be careful about bandwagons on people.Persus13: Not a fan of the Teawagon, I see. Would you have posted this if there was no RVS wagon? Do you fear that Tea may receive 5 more votes carelessly?
I've tried to post this like 5 times now, and every time someone else ninjas me.
Post by: Shakerag on May 31, 2017, 10:55:44 am
Shakerag: Are you scum?Nahh, just an asshole. How about you?
Persus13:
Shakerag: How would you compare the player makeup of this BYOR to the last one?A little heavy on the foundation and eyeliner. Also, 4maskwolf needs to cut back on the rouge because he looks like a cheap whore.
TheDarkStar:
Shakerag: If you knew that the theme you submitted had a clear impact on your role, would you claim the theme?I suppose it would depend a lot on circumstances. What is my alignment, what is the game state, etc.
As you in favor of everyone theme-claiming on D1?
All:
I'm guessing, based on one of my abilities, that there are at least a handful of inspection powers (possibly even day inspects). So with a nod to Toaster I'm going to claim that I'm an sk-miller. Leave it to webadict to screw with me...
Post by: flabort on May 31, 2017, 11:09:10 am
flabort: How would you react if you learned that I was lying about my theme?Good question. I would have to find out the motive behind this lie, so I would probably put a pressure vote on you and grill you with a ton of questions, half of which were seemingly unrelated to the lie in question. This is assuming I find out pre-humously.
Flabort: On N1 you get a mason chat with someone at random. Which player would you want it to be with most or least, and which role would you want it to be with most or least?For most, my choice is Shakerag with a Night-kill. Alternatively, Jack A T with an inspection.
For least, that's harder to answer. I'm thinking, though, that it would be OSG with a 1-shot protection. Or 1-shot anything, really.
flabortPlenty of WIFOM here. Time to throw some more out.
Helps when you post, nano.
I'm killing multiple people tonight.
You can't stop me.
Why shouldn't I kill you?
1) You can't, at least not permanently
2) I will be posting lots when I'm awake
3) I'm actually a pretty decent scum-hunter, if a bit rusty at it right now
4) How do you know you won't be voted off before tonight? You were pretty clearly role fishing on TDS, Shakerag, Fallacy, and even 4maskwolf. Rolefishing is a bad way of scum hunting, and more often a scum tactic than town.
For now though:This... there's two options I see. Either you are a Jester asking to be lynched, or novice scum. #6 and #7 are suuuper suspicious.
1) I'm dying tonight
2) I'm unblockable
3) My role is very strong
4) I suspect that there may exist daygame powers which can snipe me before I get to night 1
5) That includes voting control powers
6) Therefore, anyone who votes me today is madcrazy suspicious if I don't get all my fireworks off
7) Therefore, don't vote me if you are town
8) I'm probably going to get daykilled or something anyway
9) Jokes on you scum, you I actually need to make it to Day 2 and couldn't think of a good way to dodge the scumkill
10) Have fun with the wifom, nano desu
FoS, Doll
Shakerag
Which mafia game in this forum was your favorite to play? What did you learn from it that you can apply to this game?
TheDarkStar
What is the strangest but surprisingly effective scumhunting tactic you've ever seen?
Tiruin
Each time Doll makes a post, how do you physically react? Does anyone else give you a similar feeling? Does anyone give you a worse feeling?
OragamiScience
How much of Mafia is emotional, how much is critical thinking, and how much is BS?
TolyK
Let's say it was saturday and you had a majority voting on you. You have two potential suspects for the actual scum team, and you can make a good case on one but town has made it's case against you based on your earlier unfounded suspicions on that person; the case that you can make against your other suspect is much weaker, but wouldn't look like a tunnel-vision case. What do you do?
Hector13
If you were town and I wrongfully voted for you over a vote you made, what would your reaction be?
Fallacy
What is your favorite gambit (to use or in theory), and how would you counter it if you found it being used against you?
Persus13
Long time no interact. What do you feel you'll be bringing to the scum-hunting table this time around?
4maskwolf
What significance do you think the titles pre-game had? If what Jack AT and Doll said is true, it seems they have to do with themes and/or roles - do you believe this for a minute, and if so, do you think what they said about it is a form of role fishing?
TheBiggerFish
At what stage does RVS end for you? Do you ignore RVS like some and wait until later in the day to start scum hunting, or do you find RVS to yield useful data sometimes?
Tea
Explain in your own words the significance of a Finger of Suspicion.
Pozzai
I'm not going to be a jerk and random vote you for being new - what do you think about the people who would do this? Who do you think is capable of this, and why?
Post by: TolyK on May 31, 2017, 11:15:09 am
Do you want to chat? There's a way we can chat in private. I can give more details regarding the actual experiment there. Are you up? (This would possibly eventually add more folks to said chat).Do you want to do a (literally harmless, in terms of actions) experiment, Jack?TolyK: Let's hear it, if it is still relevant.
I'm tentatively trusting you, mostly because there's historically been little I can actually read from your posts (only from actions).
Shakerag:
All:I don't have exactly an inspection ability, but...
I'm guessing, based on one of my abilities, that there are at least a handful of inspection powers (possibly even day inspects). So with a nod to Toaster I'm going to claim that I'm an sk-miller. Leave it to webadict to screw with me...
Is the sk-miller thing an auto ability?
Post by: TolyK on May 31, 2017, 11:17:32 am
TolyKIsn't it late for hypothetical RVS questions?..
Let's say it was saturday and you had a majority voting on you. You have two potential suspects for the actual scum team, and you can make a good case on one but town has made it's case against you based on your earlier unfounded suspicions on that person; the case that you can make against your other suspect is much weaker, but wouldn't look like a tunnel-vision case. What do you do?
Anyways, I'd probably explain my points on both said persons, die, then hopefully people will remember my suspicions. :P
Post by: FallacyofUrist on May 31, 2017, 11:19:33 am
Now, the question is whether or not you're actually an SK miller, or you are actually an SK.
But that remains to be seen. I can't glean that from one post.
Actually, how about I ask you some RVS questions.
~~~
Skrag:
1. How relevant are peacocks to your role?
2. Do you think such a vague question deserves to be called role fishing? Is it scummy? If so, are you going to pressure me about it?
3. On a scale of 1(least) to 11(most), how important to the game do you think themes are.
4. You are given a post restriction that requires you say "nyah" at the end of each of your sentences. You also learn that it'll disappear at the end of the next night, but anybody who hits you with an action will be given the exact same auto ability. Do you make any attempts to persuade people to act on you or not act on you?
5. Are you a serial killer? Answer clearly, please, for the sake of a hypothetical truth teller.
6. What do you think the probability of there being a truth teller in this game is?
7. Why do you think I asked each of these questions?
8. Finally, are there any of these questions you didn't answer, and why?
~~~
Alright, skeletal hand ninja.
FallacyNever mind the fact that the only gambit I know the name of is the refuge in audacity.
What is your favorite gambit (to use or in theory), and how would you counter it if you found it being used against you?
There's a fairly interesting one I've been thinking of, where a townie claims survivor at LYLO and says they wish to side with scum, then tell the truth once the scum reveal themselves. But I think that would be in poor taste. Not really my favorite.
But can a single gambit really be a favorite? A gambit that might be good in one circumstance but not in another.
I get that this probably wasn't what you were looking for, but gambits aren't my best mafia subject. If you want a more solid answer, ask some question involving hypothetical roles.
Assuming you think those are worth asking, anyhow.
~~~
KYOSN mod ninja!
... TolyK obv cult leader gambit.
Well, maybe.
Well, a vote is meant to be used. TolyK: What do you think the odds are that a cult leader might pass their conversion off as an expanding mason group?
And don't ask me why I'm not using it on doll in response, because I'm answering that now: because doll has claimed she'll be dead D2. If she's not, you can expect(most likely) that my vote will go right onto her.
~~~
KYOSN mod double ninja!
Isn't it late for hypothetical RVS questions?..It's never too late for hypothetical RVS question!
TolyK: If you were actually a cult leader, how would you go about convincing me you weren't the cult leader and getting my vote off you?
Post by: flabort on May 31, 2017, 11:26:25 am
Flabort:
Isn't it late for hypothetical RVS questions?..
Good wonderful morning you bastards :P Getting the game going with two whole pages of posts in my sleep.
Alright, skeletal hand ninja.Hmm. I'm not really a fan of rolefishing or encouraging others to rolefish - I could ask you some questions about hypothetical roles, though, if you really want. Also, yes, it's never too late for RVS questions; if RVS is over, you can still mix RVS questions into the game if you run out of other routes to pursue.FallacyNever mind the fact that the only gambit I know the name of is the refuge in audacity.
What is your favorite gambit (to use or in theory), and how would you counter it if you found it being used against you?
There's a fairly interesting one I've been thinking of, where a townie claims survivor at LYLO and says they wish to side with scum, then tell the truth once the scum reveal themselves. But I think that would be in poor taste. Not really my favorite.
But can a single gambit really be a favorite? A gambit that might be good in one circumstance but not in another.
I get that this probably wasn't what you were looking for, but gambits aren't my best mafia subject. If you want a more solid answer, ask some question involving hypothetical roles.
Assuming you think those are worth asking, anyhow.
~~~
KYOSN mod double ninja!Isn't it late for hypothetical RVS questions?..It's never too late for hypothetical RVS question!
OK, here's the question.
What do you want to bet that Shakes is an SK-Miller Scum? :P There's nothing saying that a miller HAS to be town, after all, just that they are TYPICALLY town behind their inaccurate investigation.
Post by: TolyK on May 31, 2017, 12:08:28 pm
KYOSN mod ninja!I'm obviously biased, so 0%.
... TolyK obv cult leader gambit.
Well, maybe.
Well, a vote is meant to be used. TolyK: What do you think the odds are that a cult leader might pass their conversion off as an expanding mason group?
If I want to give a real answer, though... pretty slim? It'd be a definite gambit to just publicly say who I'd invite and ask them whether they want to join. After all, isn't the point of a cult the fact that alignment changes? I guess you could make a point for trying to not recruit scum or some special conditions for the cult recruiting, but other than that I don't see a point in giving additional information I could've quite easily withheld, were I a cult leader...
And don't ask me why I'm not using it on doll in response, because I'm answering that now: because doll has claimed she'll be dead D2. If she's not, you can expect(most likely) that my vote will go right onto her.... what? Do you mean who you're voting? That's an unusual preemptive answer.
KYOSN mod double ninja!:P
TolyK: If you were actually a cult leader, how would you go about convincing me you weren't the cult leader and getting my vote off you?Well, considering there's very little I could do to prove I'm not a cult leader, sans opening up all my cards, I would probably not care too much unless you were actively trying to lead the town to my lynch (and potentially succeeding). Since my death would probably be a setback for the town, I'd consider explaining my role in more detail to convince that I'm not a cult leader.
Interestingly, if Jack accepts the experiment, I could more or less prove to you specifically that I'm not a cult leader during this day. I would prefer not to, but I might if it comes to that.
flabort & FoU:
Isn't it late for hypothetical RVS questions?..It's never too late for hypothetical RVS question!
To rebutt those answers: You don't think there are enough leads already to start picking away at? Generally RVS is where you don't know anything, and ask around to get leads. It's not a necessary phase for all games; latecomers to the action might already have enough to work with that they can skip RVS.Flabort:
Isn't it late for hypothetical RVS questions?..Good wonderful morning you bastards :P Getting the game going with two whole pages of posts in my sleep.
For example, I basically skipped RVS to ask Jack that question and pick at what others have said in response to RVS questions.
Post by: Lenglon on May 31, 2017, 12:15:00 pm
Jack: I have no clue what sleepy-me was thinking. sorry.
be back after taking care of biological needs with questions.
Post by: Lenglon on May 31, 2017, 12:39:49 pm
why did you gather influence on me and then not use it? that stuff has an expiration data ya know.
Tolyk: why pick Jack in particular for your experiment?
Post by: TolyK on May 31, 2017, 12:43:40 pm
The other part I'll explain conditional on whether he accepts or not.
Post by: Lenglon on May 31, 2017, 01:17:28 pm
Post by: TheBiggerFish on May 31, 2017, 01:25:35 pm
Post by: flabort on May 31, 2017, 01:27:51 pm
There's basically three leads. Doll's crazy claim, Shakerag's miller claim, and Jack's theme claim. None of these were resulting from RVS questions, and all three are hard to confirm or deny - and further questioning about these claims won't be helpful, as like I said its very hard to confirm or deny anything these three say about their claims. It's just an unhelpful pile of WIFOM.
flabort & FoU:Isn't it late for hypothetical RVS questions?..It's never too late for hypothetical RVS question!To rebutt those answers: You don't think there are enough leads already to start picking away at? Generally RVS is where you don't know anything, and ask around to get leads. It's not a necessary phase for all games; latecomers to the action might already have enough to work with that they can skip RVS.Flabort:
Isn't it late for hypothetical RVS questions?..Good wonderful morning you bastards :P Getting the game going with two whole pages of posts in my sleep.
For example, I basically skipped RVS to ask Jack that question and pick at what others have said in response to RVS questions.
Now, there is the idea that observing other people's reactions to the claims, and specifically looking for any role fishing or scum tells in their reactions will be helpful, but that is merely observation; to do anything actually useful, you need to ask questions, and that is why I started with RVS questions, rather than skipping straight to analysis.
Post by: TheBiggerFish on May 31, 2017, 01:37:02 pm
TheBiggerFishIt depends on how random you define random to be in RVS. I don't really get onto a solid footing until the first lynch has panned out, generally, but I wouldn't say it's truly random once people are throwing coherent arguments around.
At what stage does RVS end for you? Do you ignore RVS like some and wait until later in the day to start scum hunting, or do you find RVS to yield useful data sometimes?
That's not a dichotomous question. RVS can yield useful data, but I don't often know what to do with it.
Post by: 4maskwolf on May 31, 2017, 01:40:23 pm
4maskwolf:Because there's no guarantee what, if anything, my theme applies to, and with such a generic theme there could be chaotic elements that would have been included without taking my theme into account. We really shouldn't be looking too hard into themes because that road leads down a WIFOM rabbithole.Time is slow here, so two years ago is still recent for me.b]4maskwolf[/b]I'm pretty sure that's the first time I've mentioned it in years? And nothing from you was headache-inducing, the daygame was headache-inducing in that game, which is what I was going for in my comment to Jack.Jack A T: What I make of it is that this game is going to be a headache that makes me long for GBU 2.Man that game was awhile ago. What about that game was headache inducing? Also, why do you bring up that game all the time?
Now, what's my theme? My theme is Chaos. That's it. Don't read too much into it, given that there's no guarantee it affects anything in the game.
Judging by past BYORs, your theme accurately describes the entire game. So why are you attempting to minimize it?
Shakerag: Good to know?
flabort: Look, fuck if I know what the mod was doing. It was funny, it didn't happen during the game itself, that's all I really care about in this case. Why are you so interested in the subject?
Post by: Tea on May 31, 2017, 01:54:36 pm
I believe you that you didn't develop the idea of asking doll until after you got your role PM. Considering Pozzai was already at the bottom of the playerlist I'm not sure why him ending up in that spot took that much more thought for you? Also, there's a pretty significant tonal shift from your question to OrigamiScienceGuy and your question to TolyK, which I'm curious about.I don't find Pozzai's or Lenglon's votes alignment indicative. I think that you voted me because of how you decided to go about your question wall, but that the mindset behind the wall is important. The rest of your post about me beyond the vote makes me feel uncomfortable because the loaded premise --> blatant reaction test question is just ... super inorganic? Like, the wagon and the LET'S DEMAND AN INSTANT RESPONSE TO THE WAGON in tandem is just..distracting from letting me find what I /do/ think is alignment indicative, and is making the most important thing about me to the thread this super artificial thing.Tea: The wall of questions was written in loosely linear order, with editing and adjustments. Pozzai was placed at the bottom for some separation from the more RVSey preceding questions, and doll (and by extension 4mask) was placed at the top for flow.
Was your wall of questions written in the order that you posted it in?
I voted you not because of how I decided to handle the mass questions, but because Pozzai voted for you. Multiple votes can generate some interesting reactions, both from the target and from those around, and Bay 12 has tended too far against placing multiple votes on the same person in RVS (making the "V" in RVS even less meaningful). This generated interesting reactions. Notably, you seem to put more weight on a facially ridiculous RVS vote than it is due.
What makes this vote, which you recognize is absurd, "the most important thing about [you]" in the thread? Do you fear that it will stay in place?
It's not a particular vote that makes me uncomfortable. (And to be clear, what I meant by your vote being because of the wall was that I think by taking a wide net interactional approach, that made it more likely that you would vote me and talk to me about it. Although I do believe you that you were more likely to double up votes anyway based on your response.) I'm uncomfortable because I feel like the continual milking of reactions to this hella artificial thing diverts attention from things more likely to make the thread understand me and vice-versa.
My perception of what Jack has claimed about his theme is that the thought processes reflected up to and including the doll question were probably ~completely from pregame and that his role PM gave him no real reason to not want to jump in with that. I do think an easy way for scum to appear town is to articulate pure, pre-scum role PM thoughts - but I dunno that I feel that's any more likely than chance.All questions were written and almost all ideas were developed after the game started, with full awareness of my PM.
[/quote]
...Even though you posted before the game was rolled here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164260.msg7470323#msg7470323), you weren't curious about flabort's reaction until after reading your role PM? Because I felt like that was really the meat of what you decided to include about your claim - using that pregame information as a jumping off point to create RVS information (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164260.msg7470722#msg7470722).
Tea,This is kinda what I was getting at with what I asked Pozzai; I think telling people what they can do to be more townread is a bit dangerous as town. I don't have a specific strategy in mind for assessing cageyness w/r/t info claims. Well, besides feels.Can the same be said for scum and town, though? Town wants to give information to others, but not too much too fast because of potential danger. Scum wants to appear like they're giving relevant info, while actually minimizing usefulness. How do we differentiate?Ironically if you're lying about your theme Jack, that would make me feel better than if you're telling the truth.I'm curious why you brought this up prior to Jack elaborating beyond "because."
My perception of what Jack has claimed about his theme is that the thought processes reflected up to and including the doll question were probably ~completely from pregame and that his role PM gave him no real reason to not want to jump in with that. I do think an easy way for scum to appear town is to articulate pure, pre-scum role PM thoughts - but I dunno that I feel that's any more likely than chance.
TeaIt means someone decided to use an archaic buzzword term to describe someone they suspect but aren't voting. The significance of that is pretty contextual. Why do you ask?
Explain in your own words the significance of a Finger of Suspicion.
-
FallacyofUrist, what's your preferred alignment?
Post by: TheBiggerFish on May 31, 2017, 02:02:45 pm
Post by: Tea on May 31, 2017, 02:05:22 pm
Tea: The question stands, who the heck are you?
TheBiggerFish: Nice to meet you. In spite of your curiosity, you didn't search my previous posts in the subforum? I played a couple of games here 2 years ago; was pleasant other than the super high flaking rate.Still stands, other than the "nice to meet you" bit.
In 2009-2010 I played a lot of IRC mafia on XylBot + forum mafia on MafiaScum, and since 2013 or so I've been flitting around the internet looking for a mafia subforum to call home.
Post by: Tea on May 31, 2017, 02:06:18 pm
Post by: TheBiggerFish on May 31, 2017, 02:11:11 pm
Nothing yet. I don't really know what to ask.
Post by: flabort on May 31, 2017, 02:15:42 pm
Because I haven't played with you before that I can recall, and I'm trying to get a grip on what you are like as a player, and subsequently use that information to later get a read on you. Very interesting that you describe it as archaic - it tells me that as a newer player, you have a sense of superiority - no, that's not quite the right word for it, is it entitlement? No, maybe something like naivety. That's the one. I do suggest you don't disregard other old and time tested phrases we use on this forum.TeaIt means someone decided to use an archaic buzzword term to describe someone they suspect but aren't voting. The significance of that is pretty contextual. Why do you ask?
Explain in your own words the significance of a Finger of Suspicion.
flabort: Look, fuck if I know what the mod was doing. It was funny, it didn't happen during the game itself, that's all I really care about in this case. Why are you so interested in the subject?Because it has some relevance to 2 out of 3 claims that have gone on so far. And like I was saying to TolyK, those are pretty much the only thing so far to base reactions on.
PPE:
Geez, I'm missing a lot of things, aren't I.TheBiggerFish So come up with something. This is just a pressure vote, but I do encourage you to actually join the game.
Nothing yet. I don't really know what to ask.
Post by: TheBiggerFish on May 31, 2017, 02:19:51 pm
flabort: Do you think pressure votes actually help?
Post by: flabort on May 31, 2017, 02:30:13 pm
Yes, I'm trying to do that.Absolutely. Why don't you try harder, maybe ask more people questions?
flabort: Do you think pressure votes actually help?
Post by: TolyK on May 31, 2017, 02:33:49 pm
Hint: don't do that, obviously, as it's not very productive. :P
You might instead want to actually reread a bit and poke at what others have said, TBF.
Post by: 4maskwolf on May 31, 2017, 02:37:27 pm
I'm reserving judgement because this isn't a bastard mod, I don't think the moderator would have given out any information other than cheeky references to people's themes to serve as in-jokes. But who knows. Why is this the only thing to base reactions off of? There've been plenty of people who've done crazy things and people who've reacted to them, you can look at all of those things to apply pressure.flabort: Look, fuck if I know what the mod was doing. It was funny, it didn't happen during the game itself, that's all I really care about in this case. Why are you so interested in the subject?Because it has some relevance to 2 out of 3 claims that have gone on so far. And like I was saying to TolyK, those are pretty much the only thing so far to base reactions on.
Let's give you something to react to: I claim my role as Conway's Game of Life. Is this my actual role, and why did I do this?
Post by: TolyK on May 31, 2017, 02:38:25 pm
Post by: 4maskwolf on May 31, 2017, 02:42:35 pm
If it is, then you're actually pretty awesome.Speaking of ways to seem like you're participating while not accomplishing anything...
Post by: TolyK on May 31, 2017, 02:53:17 pm
- I am waiting on Jack to reply about the test thingie.
- I've poked some people about their replies to other people. Most notably, about doll's erratic behavior...
- Replied to accusations of being a cult leader, from FoU specifically.
and you're accusing me of trying to look like I'm participating while not doing anything? What exactly are you expecting to happen D1 less than a day after game start? :)
Post by: 4maskwolf on May 31, 2017, 02:54:32 pm
and you're accusing me of trying to look like I'm participating while not doing anything? What exactly are you expecting to happen D1 less than a day after game start? :)No, I'm snarking about you making an irrelevant comment after chastising TBF for lack of relevant play. Don't mind me.
Post by: Tea on May 31, 2017, 03:00:45 pm
Because I haven't played with you before that I can recall, and I'm trying to get a grip on what you are like as a player, and subsequently use that information to later get a read on you. Very interesting that you describe it as archaic - it tells me that as a newer player, you have a sense of superiority - no, that's not quite the right word for it, is it entitlement? No, maybe something like naivety. That's the one. I do suggest you don't disregard other old and time tested phrases we use on this forum.TeaIt means someone decided to use an archaic buzzword term to describe someone they suspect but aren't voting. The significance of that is pretty contextual. Why do you ask?
Explain in your own words the significance of a Finger of Suspicion.
You may not have played with me but you have modded me. To rephrase, I think of FoSing as archaic because it's a term I personally stopped using seven years ago in favor of just...not using a buzzword to describe my thoughts instead, but the significance of it is obviously both site meta dependent and in-thread context dependent.
A problem I'm having with this RVS is that I have no idea how asking a bunch of individuals hypothetical what-would-you-do-if-you-had-this-exact-role questions as well as a lot of the theory questions I've seen are productive. Way more people are focusing on these things than would be non-town in a standard game. The emphasis on asking specific formulaic questions to specific people en masse was something I struggled to get reads from in my only past game here that I didn't replace into. So yeah, I do have a bad attitude about bay12's early day1 meta which is probably coming off as snotty, or "naive" as you call it.
Post by: Pozzai on May 31, 2017, 03:27:00 pm
I'm not going to be a jerk and random vote you for being new - what do you think about the people who would do this? Who do you think is capable of this, and why?
[/quote]
I wouldn't have minded. I do think it's an acceptable way of scoping out players new to a site, to get some pressure on them and see how they react, if they potentially is the crumbly sort of cracker.
I think there's a huge difference in doing this to people who are new, and people who are new to a site, and personally wouldn't do it to completely new players because it's a bit douchebaggerish, and while I can be intense and blunt while playing, I still do put fun > winning.
So who would be capable to do it to a new on site player, more or less everyone, and I have no feelings towards them, hard or otherwise, the few who would not are probably the people most interested in giving newsite players the most positive experience possible.
Who that'd be specifically in this game, Idk \o/
Gonna shower and catch up on rest of thread afterwards !
Post by: Shakerag on May 31, 2017, 03:27:28 pm
ShakeragHmm. Hard for me to remember a lot of the games I was in. Bastard Paranormal 2 was a favorite. Paranormal 20 was another awesome game.
Which mafia game in this forum was your favorite to play? What did you learn from it that you can apply to this game?
What did I learn from those games? Don't lose? Inspections are awesome?
TolyK:
I don't have exactly an inspection ability, but...Yup. Why did you claim that you don't have an inspection?
Is the sk-miller thing an auto ability?
Tea: So what, in your opinion, is the ideal D1 play?
Post by: TolyK on May 31, 2017, 03:28:50 pm
TolyK:I claimed that I don't exactly have an inspection ability. :PI don't have exactly an inspection ability, but...Yup. Why did you claim that you don't have an inspection?
Is the sk-miller thing an auto ability?
Post by: Pozzai on May 31, 2017, 03:29:16 pm
A problem I'm having with this RVS is that I have no idea how asking a bunch of individuals hypothetical what-would-you-do-if-you-had-this-exact-role questions as well as a lot of the theory questions I've seen are productive. Way more people are focusing on these things than would be non-town in a standard game. The emphasis on asking specific formulaic questions to specific people en masse was something I struggled to get reads from in my only past game here that I didn't replace into. So yeah, I do have a bad attitude about bay12's early day1 meta which is probably coming off as snotty, or "naive" as you call it.
Kind of where I am at as well to be honest.
To me most of these things are just there to WIFOM the hell out of everyone in the game and puts a thick cloud of NAI activity around the place to be done very little with in terms of game progression in my optics >_>
Post by: hector13 on May 31, 2017, 03:33:40 pm
Jack AT
hector13: How would hector12 approach RVS, and why is that approach wrong?
Well I'll just assume this question is "what's RVS all about, what's a bad way to go about it" 'cause... I'm actually quite tired, and answering the question that way makes it a bit easier for me.
Obviously you want content in the game quickly, so asking things like "what's your favourite colour" and the like, while entertaining and perhaps gaining a bit of knowledge into the psychology of the questionee, not great at the content side through which you can divine someone's alignment.
Asking about theory and then following it up about it, asking about previous experience with other players in the game, maybe posing hypotheticals; these are, I think, good things to do in RVS. Also asking a question to someone when you answer one is a pretty good habit to have in RVS. What's your favourite colour?
Having a look at your RVS questions, you've got a mix of good ones and bad ones, and you're ostensibly touching base with all the other players. You did leave your TBF part blank which... may not net much with a player like Teebs.
Pozzai
... @Pozzai: Then your word choice was poor. Why would 4mask be of any more help, anyway?
Maybe, sometimes stuff gets lost in translation.
If town!4mask, able to add a second pov on the only person in the game I have any knowledge of.
If scum!4mask, might be informative if their arguments feels reachy or contrived.
Why would you need a second opinion on someone you know (and presumably have played with a few times before considering they were the one that brought you in) as opposed to everyone else you haven't?
Do you think it's wise to be telegraphing the things you find scummy so early?
Persus13
I don't like you.
Also, this game has hammers, so please be careful about bandwagons on people.
This is a part of why.
The rest of your post seems rather... wooden, like it's there just to be there.
Mostly I don't like you.
doll
hector13
Blah blah competent player don't want to clog this up with RVS is that a good idea kashira nano desu ne
Is what I'm doing a good idea at all, do you think?
I like this question. I really like this question. If I could make a question human and have s-
*cough*
I mean, sure, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. You're a competent player too.
I might come back to this later. Then again, I might not.
Unless you want me to not engage in a tit-for-tat "who can be more ambiguous" thing... while entertaining, I s'pose I'll go with my gut and not do that.
Sure, I like what you're doing. You're being typically verbose though, which I'm not a fan of, and you're taking up a great deal of attention early doors, which isn't necessarily a bad thing. The tone of your D1 posts has changed again though; uncertain if that's intentional or you're just having fun with what you have right now.
This isn't something I can really give an accurate thought on, given I need to see how you conclude it. Presently: so far, so good.
FoU
One of these days I'm going to submit The Role That Makes RVS Unnecessary to a BYOR. One day.Fallacy of Urist: What's your favorite mafia game on Bay12 you've played? Why?*reminisces*
Did I spell that right? Anyhow... Flabort's High Powered BYOR 2 is second. If I wasn't killed by somebody giving me a "you can't win" role and stopping me from acting on only Night 2... bah, humbug. As a result, Mafia Marathon is my favorite game. 23 mini-setups, almost a year to play. It was my favorite because it was fun, and it took a while to end, and it was well designed... seriously, Tomasque is a master at mafia design. I'm honored to be working with him on Odd Mafia.
Return question: Is there much benefit to that RVS question?FallacyOfUristWhat, expecting me to answer? How about this: I'll tell you what my role isn't. For Day 1: Seto Kaiba. That is, that's not my role.
What's your role, FoU-chan?
10) Have fun with the wifom, nano desu
Now, the question is, whether you're scum trying to get role information out of this, or town trying to see how I react to blatant role fishing.
Return question: Pick two of these five questions to answer.
1. Are you willing to provide a list of Japanese honorifics and what they mean to this forum?
2. Does your theme have anything to do with peacocks?
3. If you had a night kill that only works on cult leaders and survivors, would you use it in lieu of your normal actions?
4. If you had a self-revive that only works during the first two cycles, would you make an effort to direct the scum kill to yourself?
5. Rate each of these questions in terms of usefulness on a scale from 1 to 5 where 1 is the highest and 5 is the lowest.FallacyOfUrist: What is the best way to place your vote in RVS? Should multiple players vote for the same target in RVS?On a player who made an answer you think is scummy. Yes, within reason. More pressure means more slipping up, but I wouldn't want somebody to be hammered or lynched based on RVS votes.
Return question: Do you think what I just said is true?
~~~
I think that's all the questions addressed to me. Did I miss any?
You have engaged in what I expect of reasonable RVS play. Kinda.
Anyway, you claim your day game needs work. What do you think makes a good day game, and who has displayed it so far? Who has not? What do you think this means regarding these players alignment? (alignments? I Kant England twoday)
TDS
2-4. Why are you rolefishing?
Jack A T: If you were completely kill/lynch immune, when would you claim it?
origamiscienceguy: If you were a serial killer and had a daykill, who would you kill today?doll: In your opinion, what is the most important thing to look for in someone's posts to get a read on them?
Shakerag: If you knew that the theme you submitted had a clear impact on your role, would you claim the theme?
doll: Why claim that you're going to die tonight rather than keeping quiet about it to try to waste one of the scum's kills?
lol
Why do you bother if someone else is rolefishing if you're doing the same?
flabort
Good to see you back, I enjoyed the time I played one game with you, and I think I learned a bit from it too.
Anyway,
Hector13
If you were town and I wrongfully voted for you over a vote you made, what would your reaction be?
This is an odd question. My answer will, of course, depend on my interpretation of the word "wrongfully".
If you were "wrongful" in voting for me, in the sense that your vote was not well-founded, I would have to point that out, and consider why you were voting in that circumstance. Chainsaw defense? Buddying my target? I'd press you on it, see if I could divine the motivation behind it.
Any vote would be "wrongful" on me if I knew I was town, but I imagine my response would be the same if I was scum anyway. I like to think I have a strong enough day game that I can construct a case that people will follow, so I'd press you on your vote, divine the reasons for it, and then try to deflect onto who I thought was scum, presumably the person I'm voting in this scenario.
What do you think I'm finding odd about this question?
Christ there are still two more pages to read...
Oh, not much happening anyway. I was hoping there would've been more from doll, alas...
Yes, I'm trying to do that.
flabort: Do you think pressure votes actually help?
God-damn right they do.
Anyway, a significant issue I have with you, Teebs, is you say you have problems asking questions and then seem to expect other people to spoon feed you how to ask questions. You need to learn this on your own, develop your own playstyle, your own voice.
One thing I learned later than I probably should have is to form opinions very quickly, on very little, and be willing to give up on them. That last bit is still something I have trouble with.
I suspect the biggest issue you have with the game is the fear of being wrong. Here's the thing: it doesn't matter if you're wrong. You're not literally going to die if you make a mistake, the worst that'll happen is you'll lose the game. Oh well. Disappointing for a while, but then you can jump right back in and remedy it.
As for questions: If something piques your interest, consider why. Ask about it. If someone says it was a rubbish question, consider why. Ask about it. Your meta has thus far been of a player that doesn't really contribute, so you will likely experience some frustration and unpleasant words from people you have played with before. Don't let that stop you asking questions. The best way to learn what questions to ask, which leads to follow, comes with experience, and you haven't been willing to have that experience in the past. Just jump in and fire questions at everyone.
Probably should've spoilered that, and everything else, but ah well. You can all have a wall with my first post. Have at ye.
I'm sad there's less of it than I thought :'(
Post by: Pozzai on May 31, 2017, 03:46:49 pm
Pozzai... @Pozzai: Then your word choice was poor. Why would 4mask be of any more help, anyway?
Maybe, sometimes stuff gets lost in translation.
If town!4mask, able to add a second pov on the only person in the game I have any knowledge of.
If scum!4mask, might be informative if their arguments feels reachy or contrived.
Why would you need a second opinion on someone you know (and presumably have played with a few times before considering they were the one that brought you in) as opposed to everyone else you haven't?
Do you think it's wise to be telegraphing the things you find scummy so early?
Just because you know someone, doesn't mean you're capable of reading them well, our internal reading of each other has been... Lackluster? At best.
I personally think it's better than most stuff that has been going on in thread, I feel comfortable in adapting and reading through bullshit should they attempt to mimic the opposite.
I also have never played on a forum that is so claim and WIFOM happy, and generally am used to progress the days by sharing reads and discussing them rather than doing whatever the heck is going on at this point.
I have in my last 8 towngames had my top3 towns day1 be town at the end of the game, and in many/most of them my top5, I consider myself very comfortable picking out towns and backing them up no matter the amount of pressure they're under, and quite frankly in this game, I do feel like no other towns than myself exists, because I have very few townleans, and none of them I feel at all comfortable with, mainly because of the day1 currently being extremely alien to me.
Post by: Pozzai on May 31, 2017, 03:49:33 pm
*snip*
I am NOT new, I am NEW TO THIS SITE >_>
Post by: 4maskwolf on May 31, 2017, 03:50:32 pm
I have a question about the way you're prodding Persus, hector. If Persus hadn't said that and instead it had been me saying "There's hammers in this game so don't be a fucking idiot with your vote" would you have interpreted it as wooden? Is it the content or the way it was said?
Post by: hector13 on May 31, 2017, 04:02:28 pm
Re: Persus: It was context really. That particular point wasn't wooden, but it felt odd that he'd point out a rule people should really have seen already. Almost everything else in that particular post seemed like it was being said to be said, rather than promote content.
Those two things combined = bad juju.
Post by: hector13 on May 31, 2017, 04:02:53 pm
Post by: doll on May 31, 2017, 04:28:37 pm
hector13
My tone changed because I was unsure if I was actually correct that I needed to be alive to do everything I intend to; I wasn't sure at that point if I was doing the right thing.
I've had it confirmed that my role changes when I die and become a ghost, losing my standard powers;
Therefore, my initial view (that I need to make it to N1) was correct.
Lenglon
I'll ask questions (when I have time), and you'll (all) answer those questions because I'm backing them with the pressure of two unblockable kills.
And hopefully people will stop looking at what I'm doing and take a look at the players who will still be alive after night 1.
I am dying N1.
I will die from over-using role powers an infinite amount of times.
I will do this because the opportunity of dying without blowing my kills etc. is too high for me
Post by: Pozzai on May 31, 2017, 04:36:43 pm
Something something I'll disclosure later.
Biggestfish.
I agree with what a few people have either pointed out or alluded to that there's seems to be a lack of questions with a direction that seems to be determining alignments, most of the interactions they had is very surface level.
On the other hand the lack of self-awareness shown in their posting, not making sure they read stuff and/or forgetting things tends to be more a town indicator than scum, because scum tends to be interested in coming off as 'pristine' as possible, not keeping track of stuff this early kind of spoils that.
Overall I can see arguments made for either alignment, albeit I slightly lean towards town, slightly.
Jack:
Dislike their initial post, feels way too staged for my likings, but seemingly this is a standard thing from them as no one bothered to correct him when they stated it, so may be just a standard thing of theirs. Initial gut vibe still downwards.
Doll:
Feels overly agro and demanding, dislike the entirety of their claim post, and their constant "don't bother with me go elsewhere to interact" posting bugs me.
Flabort:
The FoS and the question towards me both feels very 'hands off'. Plays it safe in an attempt to not rock the boat, this overly carefulness is more scumindicative for me.
All a bunch of weak leans and hedgy reads, but that's all I can get from this claiming meta >_>
Post by: TolyK on May 31, 2017, 04:40:59 pm
Post by: Jack A T on May 31, 2017, 04:41:50 pm
Do you want to chat? There's a way we can chat in private. I can give more details regarding the actual experiment there. Are you up? (This would possibly eventually add more folks to said chat).TolyK: Trust by virtue of unreadability is odd, but private chats have a tendency to be nocturnal chats. Night chat access is valuable. I doubt you're a cult leader, and if you are, you're gutsy enough to deserve this. Invite me.
I'm tentatively trusting you, mostly because there's historically been little I can actually read from your posts (only from actions).
Do note that I cannot guarantee support for the actual experiment.
I'd actually apply a slight town lean to that behavior [(question-stealing)].Fallacy: I agree in general, though specific situations will vary widely. The counter-normative approach discourages risk-averse players. In the case of 4maskwolf today, it is weakened somewhat by the context (RVS, relevance to my question to him...), but the concern came off both as real and as something he wanted out there.
What do you think of his move (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164260.msg7470396#msg7470396)?
In addition, I just accepted TolyK's chat deal. You find his offer rather questionable. What do you think of this? How has your read of me changed?
Considering Pozzai was already at the bottom of the playerlist I'm not sure why him ending up in that spot took that much more thought for you? Also, there's a pretty significant tonal shift from your question to OrigamiScienceGuy and your question to TolyK, which I'm curious about.Tea: Regarding Pozzai, questions were not written entirely in OP player order. Regarding the tonal shift, the Tiruin and OSG questions are both me not taking RVS all that seriously and me trying to see how two players respond to vague, open-ended questions that have the trappings of jokes. I put thought into my shitty RVS questions. Well, except the one to Shakerag.
I'm uncomfortable because I feel like the continual milking of reactions to this hella artificial thing diverts attention from things more likely to make the thread understand me and vice-versa."Milking" implies more effort in forcing reactions than was put in. It is how little I did to generate your visible discomfort that makes me interested. Many things could divert attention from the material most likely to help people understand you, but you're not demonstrating this sort of discomfort about "what would you do if you were a jester and had a daykill that only worked on Tuesdays at noon PST while shaving" questions. You don't talk about those as if they are the most important things in the thread to their targets. You don't hint at alignment relevance for them. You dismiss them as, well, them. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164260.msg7470985#msg7470985)
So, one more question. You mentioned that you don't see Pozzai or Lenglon's votes as alignment-indicative. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164260.msg7470455#msg7470455) Having examined the question block, what can you say about my vote?
...Even though you posted before the game was rolled here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164260.msg7470323#msg7470323), you weren't curious about flabort's reaction until after reading your role PM? Because I felt like that was really the meat of what you decided to include about your claim - using that pregame information as a jumping off point to create RVS information (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164260.msg7470722#msg7470722).What is there to be curious about? flabort did not get a reference to something in a field he is not in. What was interesting was that Webadict referenced the theme in the thread title, which flabort's post helpfully archived.
Jack:Pozzai: Can you give more explanation about the staged feeling?
Dislike their initial post, feels way too staged for my likings, but seemingly this is a standard thing from them as no one bothered to correct him when they stated it, so may be just a standard thing of theirs. Initial gut vibe still downwards.
Spoiler: Largely Irrelevant RVS Stuff (Shakerag, Hector responses) (click to show/hide)
Post by: Pozzai on May 31, 2017, 04:49:07 pm
Jack:Pozzai: Can you give more explanation about the staged feeling?
Dislike their initial post, feels way too staged for my likings, but seemingly this is a standard thing from them as no one bothered to correct him when they stated it, so may be just a standard thing of theirs. Initial gut vibe still downwards.
I feel like a majority of the questions were irrelevant for the progress of the game, and that your whole questionaire thingie, was more just to get your voice out, than to actually impact the game.
Post by: 4maskwolf on May 31, 2017, 04:50:37 pm
I find it amusing that, if doll is telling the truth, infinite actions are possible with just 1 role this time. Usually it requires 3, or mayyyyybe two, roles to work together...It's actually not too odd in webadict games, back in BYOR 13 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=140896.msg5693451#msg5693451) IronyOwl's role could gain infinite actions for a single night but could not act for the rest of the game once the ability that gave infinite actions was used.
Pozzazi: How do games usually go down in the meta you're used to? What are the most important parts of the game and what is most important to keep an eye out for? I'm not familiar with the general meta for any of the sites you've played on, only Mafia Universe and Bay12.
Post by: Pozzai on May 31, 2017, 04:56:59 pm
Pozzazi: How do games usually go down in the meta you're used to? What are the most important parts of the game and what is most important to keep an eye out for? I'm not familiar with the general meta for any of the sites you've played on, only Mafia Universe and Bay12.
More individual thoughts than direct questions to the game as a whole. More focus on reads and less on claims.
Like up to this point I have very few indicators of where anyone stands, because it's just a circular discussion about claims, that we can't even process today at all, this presuming people who are town are even telling the truth in the first place.
I feel like the majority of what has been said, including everything I've said, is NAI. No one is drilling into people's opinions, because there's next to none, no pressure is added, and this feel like at some point during the day someone will throw out a name, everyone will go "well, I don't have anything better so lets go" and a random person will be lynched by that.
Post by: 4maskwolf on May 31, 2017, 05:01:38 pm
What you're describing is pretty standard for early game: people will form opinions and will make accusations, and some of them are already starting to do so now based on people's play so far, but the game is still young and those opinions have little to back them up. The claims are merely a way to facilitate discussion and fish for reactions that can be used to form actual reads.Pozzazi: How do games usually go down in the meta you're used to? What are the most important parts of the game and what is most important to keep an eye out for? I'm not familiar with the general meta for any of the sites you've played on, only Mafia Universe and Bay12.
More individual thoughts than direct questions to the game as a whole. More focus on reads and less on claims.
Like up to this point I have very few indicators of where anyone stands, because it's just a circular discussion about claims, that we can't even process today at all, this presuming people who are town are even telling the truth in the first place.
I feel like the majority of what has been said, including everything I've said, is NAI. No one is drilling into people's opinions, because there's next to none, no pressure is added, and this feel like at some point during the day someone will throw out a name, everyone will go "well, I don't have anything better so lets go" and a random person will be lynched by that.
Post by: Pozzai on May 31, 2017, 05:02:07 pm
Pozzazi: How do games usually go down in the meta you're used to? What are the most important parts of the game and what is most important to keep an eye out for? I'm not familiar with the general meta for any of the sites you've played on, only Mafia Universe and Bay12.
More individual thoughts than direct questions to the game as a whole. More focus on reads and less on claims.
Like up to this point I have very few indicators of where anyone stands, because it's just a circular discussion about claims, that we can't even process today at all, this presuming people who are town are even telling the truth in the first place.
I feel like the majority of what has been said, including everything I've said, is NAI. No one is drilling into people's opinions, because there's next to none, no pressure is added, and this feel like at some point during the day someone will throw out a name, everyone will go "well, I don't have anything better so lets go" and a random person will be lynched by that.
The sites I have played on have been very different as well.
DLP/Fantasystrike focuses heavily on rulesets where claiming is generally out of necessity, not as something you do early, because there's severe punishment to claims through scum actions.
Personalitycafe meta is fairly fluffy, but still with a focus on getting reads through interactions, as opposed to claiming stuff and make in general one-way questions. Personalitycafe is fairly weak in terms of mechanical analysis, while DLP/FS is the opposite.
Post by: Pozzai on May 31, 2017, 05:05:38 pm
What you're describing is pretty standard for early game: people will form opinions and will make accusations, and some of them are already starting to do so now based on people's play so far, but the game is still young and those opinions have little to back them up. The claims are merely a way to facilitate discussion and fish for reactions that can be used to form actual reads.
I am aware what the purpose is, but that it takes this long to get out of it is frustrating to say the least.
I have NEVER had a game where I nearly 24hours into a game didn't have a townread somewhere, and the one dimensional questions asked doesn't bode too well for me.
I would've expected now that for instance Jack had returned they'd be like "so this is all the amasing information I got" to progress the game, instead they returned with a rather bland bunch of responses.
Post by: 4maskwolf on May 31, 2017, 05:08:55 pm
Bay12 is one of the slower communities out there in terms of posting speed, the only reason I'm even remotely as active as I am right now is it's my day off and many of the others work jobs where they can't exactly post during the middle of the day as well.What you're describing is pretty standard for early game: people will form opinions and will make accusations, and some of them are already starting to do so now based on people's play so far, but the game is still young and those opinions have little to back them up. The claims are merely a way to facilitate discussion and fish for reactions that can be used to form actual reads.
I am aware what the purpose is, but that it takes this long to get out of it is frustrating to say the least.
I have NEVER had a game where I nearly 24hours into a game didn't have a townread somewhere, and the one dimensional questions asked doesn't bode too well for me.
I would've expected now that for instance Jack had returned they'd be like "so this is all the amasing information I got" to progress the game, instead they returned with a rather bland bunch of responses.
But alright then, you're looking for townreads. how do you go about finding them? What would you use to get these reads and why aren't you actively pursuing that now? If you are actively pursuing reads on others, what's getting in the way of having those reads.
Post by: hector13 on May 31, 2017, 05:10:08 pm
Post by: Jack A T on May 31, 2017, 05:10:39 pm
I feel like a majority of the questions were irrelevant for the progress of the game, and that your whole questionaire thingie, was more just to get your voice out, than to actually impact the game.Pozzai: This is quite normal. Most of the questions were not meant to directly push the game into something actually useful. Generally, my main goal with start-of-game questions is calibration: gaining some more insight into other players so I can account more for their personalities when getting reads later. Yes, that does include "how do i byor." It's what these questions are actually useful for, as opposed to what we try to make them do (push us out of RVS).
The theme falls within my ongoing spree of stunt openings, in which I try to get something of actual value by behaving abnormally. This one sort of fizzled.
Post by: Pozzai on May 31, 2017, 05:11:01 pm
Bay12 is one of the slower communities out there in terms of posting speed, the only reason I'm even remotely as active as I am right now is it's my day off and many of the others work jobs where they can't exactly post during the middle of the day as well.What you're describing is pretty standard for early game: people will form opinions and will make accusations, and some of them are already starting to do so now based on people's play so far, but the game is still young and those opinions have little to back them up. The claims are merely a way to facilitate discussion and fish for reactions that can be used to form actual reads.
I am aware what the purpose is, but that it takes this long to get out of it is frustrating to say the least.
I have NEVER had a game where I nearly 24hours into a game didn't have a townread somewhere, and the one dimensional questions asked doesn't bode too well for me.
I would've expected now that for instance Jack had returned they'd be like "so this is all the amasing information I got" to progress the game, instead they returned with a rather bland bunch of responses.
But alright then, you're looking for townreads. how do you go about finding them? What would you use to get these reads and why aren't you actively pursuing that now? If you are actively pursuing reads on others, what's getting in the way of having those reads.
Who says I haven't, and wont it counterwork the attempt if I explain what I do to get them?
Post by: 4maskwolf on May 31, 2017, 05:13:54 pm
Ah ya bastard I was going to ask why they weren't doing anything to get the reads :'(Too slow. Find your own things to push on.
Who says I haven't, and wont it counterwork the attempt if I explain what I do to get them?I certainly didn't, I accepted both possibilities, and perhaps. It all depends on the method through which you get them.
Leaning town on you for now, not gonna bother pushing any further on the matter.
The theme falls within my ongoing spree of stunt openings, in which I try to get something of actual value by behaving abnormally. This one sort of fizzled.Yeah and I'm glad for it, hopefully people will stop doing that shit soon. [/tiltedgrumping]
Post by: TolyK on May 31, 2017, 05:25:00 pm
Sent the action in. Yeah, I like chatting during the night. Also, assuming we have a normal town/scum balance in this game the probability of you being town is higher than the town's average winrate, so I think I'll take the risk either way.Do you want to chat? There's a way we can chat in private. I can give more details regarding the actual experiment there. Are you up? (This would possibly eventually add more folks to said chat).TolyK: Trust by virtue of unreadability is odd, but private chats have a tendency to be nocturnal chats. Night chat access is valuable. I doubt you're a cult leader, and if you are, you're gutsy enough to deserve this. Invite me.
I'm tentatively trusting you, mostly because there's historically been little I can actually read from your posts (only from actions).
Do note that I cannot guarantee support for the actual experiment.
Post by: Shakerag on May 31, 2017, 05:26:21 pm
Skrag:I thought there was something annoying that I missed.
1. How relevant are peacocks to your role?
2. Do you think such a vague question deserves to be called role fishing? Is it scummy? If so, are you going to pressure me about it?
3. On a scale of 1(least) to 11(most), how important to the game do you think themes are.
4. You are given a post restriction that requires you say "nyah" at the end of each of your sentences. You also learn that it'll disappear at the end of the next night, but anybody who hits you with an action will be given the exact same auto ability. Do you make any attempts to persuade people to act on you or not act on you?
5. Are you a serial killer? Answer clearly, please, for the sake of a hypothetical truth teller.
6. What do you think the probability of there being a truth teller in this game is?
7. Why do you think I asked each of these questions?
8. Finally, are there any of these questions you didn't answer, and why?
1 - Not relevant.
2 - No. No. No.
3 - 2.
4 - tl;dr
5 - No.
6 - 3%
7 - Because you're shitposting.
8 - 4, tl;dr.
I'll be possibly back tonight for some drunken shitposting of my own.
Post by: hector13 on May 31, 2017, 05:32:33 pm
Ah ya bastard I was going to ask why they weren't doing anything to get the reads :'(Too slow. Find your own things to push on.Who says I haven't, and wont it counterwork the attempt if I explain what I do to get them?I certainly didn't, I accepted both possibilities, and perhaps. It all depends on the method through which you get them.
Leaning town on you for now, not gonna bother pushing any further on the matter.
Oh come on, you can do better than that. Why do they get a town lean?
Who says I haven't, and wont it counterwork the attempt if I explain what I do to get them?
I think you're the one saying you haven't, else you wouldn't be complaining that you're not getting reads on folk.
It probably won't counteract the attempt if you explain it, I don't think you need to resort to some weird ass double blind study to get a townread. Anyway, seeing as how you're implying you've laid these plans down somewhere, I imagine it'll allow us to get a read on you if you provide an example, even if it does counteract your efforts. Just as useful, no?
Er... sometimes they're alright. The only problem is when the stunt overshadows everything else for the rest of the day.The theme falls within my ongoing spree of stunt openings, in which I try to get something of actual value by behaving abnormally. This one sort of fizzled.Yeah and I'm glad for it, hopefully people will stop doing that shit soon. [/tiltedgrumping]
Post by: flabort on May 31, 2017, 05:55:37 pm
You may not have played with me but you have modded me.Ah. I thought the name was somewhat familiar, but like I said I couldn't recall playing with you. If I modded a game you were in that makes total sense.
Quote
To rephrase, I think of FoSing as archaic because it's a term I personally stopped using seven years ago in favor of just...not using a buzzword to describe my thoughts instead, but the significance of it is obviously both site meta dependent and in-thread context dependent.Well, I guess each site does have it's own Day 1 meta - one site I played on was all random votes, no discussion, and then counter-votes with no reasons, until a big wagon formed and then everyone jumped on the wagon, still no discussion. So when I first encountered Bay12's meta of RQS instead of RVS, I was completely lost.
A problem I'm having with this RVS is that I have no idea how asking a bunch of individuals hypothetical what-would-you-do-if-you-had-this-exact-role questions as well as a lot of the theory questions I've seen are productive. Way more people are focusing on these things than would be non-town in a standard game. The emphasis on asking specific formulaic questions to specific people en masse was something I struggled to get reads from in my only past game here that I didn't replace into. So yeah, I do have a bad attitude about bay12's early day1 meta which is probably coming off as snotty, or "naive" as you call it.
We do come off as a bit uppity sometimes - and our meta is set in it's ways now, so not being able to match it IS naive; perhaps, more "naive" as in "oh, this is my first time in highfalutin noble society, let me just blow my nose on these curtains" than "naive" as in "these are mean streets kid, and if you don't wisen up someones going to shoot you dead". But then, that formulaic, set-in-our-ways day 1 meta does help us get better collective reads.
What do you think of that term, Collective Reads (which I just made up based on our standard set of terms :P )?
I wouldn't have minded. I do think it's an acceptable way of scoping out players new to a site, to get some pressure on them and see how they react, if they potentially is the crumbly sort of cracker.Well. This throws me off a little, but now I have a better feel of what to expect from you. Thanks for this. I can't tell, have you played on this site before? You almost sound like... you've been reading the thread about making games more newbie friendly, haven't you? Well, I don't expect veteran level play, but I do expect high-level play - your comments about not being new to mafia support this expectation.
I think there's a huge difference in doing this to people who are new, and people who are new to a site, and personally wouldn't do it to completely new players because it's a bit douchebaggerish, and while I can be intense and blunt while playing, I still do put fun > winning.
So who would be capable to do it to a new on site player, more or less everyone, and I have no feelings towards them, hard or otherwise, the few who would not are probably the people most interested in giving newsite players the most positive experience possible.
Who that'd be specifically in this game, Idk \o/
Gonna shower and catch up on rest of thread afterwards !
flabortSoooo... nothing that will help with scum hunting or RQS. "Power roles rock", basically. Well, I guess I'll be keeping a cautious eye on you.ShakeragHmm. Hard for me to remember a lot of the games I was in. Bastard Paranormal 2 was a favorite. Paranormal 20 was another awesome game.
Which mafia game in this forum was your favorite to play? What did you learn from it that you can apply to this game?
What did I learn from those games? Don't lose? Inspections are awesome?
flabortYou find the ambiguity, the "if you were town" part, and the part where in that hypothetical scenario I set myself up as the scum all to be odd. Was I right?
Good to see you back, I enjoyed the time I played one game with you, and I think I learned a bit from it too.
Anyway,Hector13
If you were town and I wrongfully voted for you over a vote you made, what would your reaction be?
This is an odd question. My answer will, of course, depend on my interpretation of the word "wrongfully".
If you were "wrongful" in voting for me, in the sense that your vote was not well-founded, I would have to point that out, and consider why you were voting in that circumstance. Chainsaw defense? Buddying my target? I'd press you on it, see if I could divine the motivation behind it.
Any vote would be "wrongful" on me if I knew I was town, but I imagine my response would be the same if I was scum anyway. I like to think I have a strong enough day game that I can construct a case that people will follow, so I'd press you on your vote, divine the reasons for it, and then try to deflect onto who I thought was scum, presumably the person I'm voting in this scenario.
What do you think I'm finding odd about this question?
I'm almost certain you and I played more than one game together, by the way. Glad you think you've learned from our game(s) together, I always strive to learn more and to share my knowledge.
I like your answer by the way. Very astute.
Flabort:Ahahahah. This is where the game gets REALLY started. Afraid to say that is my personal typical first-half-of-day-1 play, playing the part of the detached judge while the lawyers bicker it out. Once I start seeing results from my and other RQS questions, I start getting into the deep and gritty parts of it, arguing it out over the littlest details like Pheonix Wright fighting for a shred of evidence.
The FoS and the question towards me both feels very 'hands off'. Plays it safe in an attempt to not rock the boat, this overly carefulness is more scumindicative for me.
I also see that you think Doll was TOO into it. Is there an optimal level of activity, in your opinion?
I find it amusing that, if doll is telling the truth, infinite actions are possible with just 1 role this time. Usually it requires 3, or mayyyyybe two, roles to work together...Ah, but is this repeatable, or is it like a supernova like they are claiming and using it blows up in their face?
Down this path, madness lies, with speculation and WIFOM. I too find it amusing, but for different undisclosed reasons.
Hmm. In later days, I think we get to be more like both those sites - after a few flips, we discuss reads more than we discuss most other things, but claims have a lot more weight to them than the circular discussions that are going on right now.Pozzazi: How do games usually go down in the meta you're used to? What are the most important parts of the game and what is most important to keep an eye out for? I'm not familiar with the general meta for any of the sites you've played on, only Mafia Universe and Bay12.
More individual thoughts than direct questions to the game as a whole. More focus on reads and less on claims.
Like up to this point I have very few indicators of where anyone stands, because it's just a circular discussion about claims, that we can't even process today at all, this presuming people who are town are even telling the truth in the first place.
I feel like the majority of what has been said, including everything I've said, is NAI. No one is drilling into people's opinions, because there's next to none, no pressure is added, and this feel like at some point during the day someone will throw out a name, everyone will go "well, I don't have anything better so lets go" and a random person will be lynched by that.
The sites I have played on have been very different as well.
DLP/Fantasystrike focuses heavily on rulesets where claiming is generally out of necessity, not as something you do early, because there's severe punishment to claims through scum actions.
Personalitycafe meta is fairly fluffy, but still with a focus on getting reads through interactions, as opposed to claiming stuff and make in general one-way questions. Personalitycafe is fairly weak in terms of mechanical analysis, while DLP/FS is the opposite.
I first played mafia on the Giant in the Playground forums, which had basically no mechanical analysis, no reads analysis, and claims were ignored half the time. The RNG was god, bandwagons for the sake of bandwagoning was common, and speculation was taken as fact. That was a long time ago for me, though.
FoU:Ah yes this is typical of Shakerag.Skrag:I thought there was something annoying that I missed.
1. How relevant are peacocks to your role?
2. Do you think such a vague question deserves to be called role fishing? Is it scummy? If so, are you going to pressure me about it?
3. On a scale of 1(least) to 11(most), how important to the game do you think themes are.
4. You are given a post restriction that requires you say "nyah" at the end of each of your sentences. You also learn that it'll disappear at the end of the next night, but anybody who hits you with an action will be given the exact same auto ability. Do you make any attempts to persuade people to act on you or not act on you?
5. Are you a serial killer? Answer clearly, please, for the sake of a hypothetical truth teller.
6. What do you think the probability of there being a truth teller in this game is?
7. Why do you think I asked each of these questions?
8. Finally, are there any of these questions you didn't answer, and why?
1 - Not relevant.
2 - No. No. No.
3 - 2.
4 - tl;dr
5 - No.
6 - 3%
7 - Because you're shitposting.
8 - 4, tl;dr.
I'll be possibly back tonight for some drunken shitposting of my own.
Post by: Pozzai on May 31, 2017, 06:05:03 pm
Ah ya bastard I was going to ask why they weren't doing anything to get the reads :'(Too slow. Find your own things to push on.Who says I haven't, and wont it counterwork the attempt if I explain what I do to get them?I certainly didn't, I accepted both possibilities, and perhaps. It all depends on the method through which you get them.
Leaning town on you for now, not gonna bother pushing any further on the matter.
Oh come on, you can do better than that. Why do they get a town lean?Who says I haven't, and wont it counterwork the attempt if I explain what I do to get them?
I think you're the one saying you haven't, else you wouldn't be complaining that you're not getting reads on folk.
It probably won't counteract the attempt if you explain it, I don't think you need to resort to some weird ass double blind study to get a townread. Anyway, seeing as how you're implying you've laid these plans down somewhere, I imagine it'll allow us to get a read on you if you provide an example, even if it does counteract your efforts. Just as useful, no?Er... sometimes they're alright. The only problem is when the stunt overshadows everything else for the rest of the day.The theme falls within my ongoing spree of stunt openings, in which I try to get something of actual value by behaving abnormally. This one sort of fizzled.Yeah and I'm glad for it, hopefully people will stop doing that shit soon. [/tiltedgrumping]
Me attempting to get reads on people, only works if they care enough to get out of the circular role discussions and actually do something... You can lead a horse to water...
Post by: flabort on May 31, 2017, 06:09:40 pm
Me attempting to get reads on people, only works if they care enough to get out of the circular role discussions and actually do something... You can lead a horse to water...But it takes an ass to tell it that it's a horse.
So ask some questions that will lead to new different discussions. Duh. Get off your ass and find a way to break the circle, rather than just accusing everyone else of being useless.
Post by: hector13 on May 31, 2017, 06:10:45 pm
Fuck it that auto-correct is much funnier than what I meant.
Post by: flabort on May 31, 2017, 06:11:41 pm
You know, I can't tell who's being the lazier one. TheBiggerFish or Pozzai. If I had two votes they would both be used for pressure votes now.
Post by: 4maskwolf on May 31, 2017, 06:13:52 pm
Me attempting to get reads on people, only works if they care enough to get out of the circular role discussions and actually do something... You can lead a horse to water...Oh quit that. The role discussions have barely even been a thing this game.
Thy will be done. Tone, mostly, it's the way I act when I'm town and literally couldn't give two shits about a question so I tend to view it favorably from an alignment standpoint. Very mild town lean, but a town lean it is.Ah ya bastard I was going to ask why they weren't doing anything to get the reads :'(Too slow. Find your own things to push on.Who says I haven't, and wont it counterwork the attempt if I explain what I do to get them?I certainly didn't, I accepted both possibilities, and perhaps. It all depends on the method through which you get them.
Leaning town on you for now, not gonna bother pushing any further on the matter.
Oh come on, you can do better than that. Why do they get a town lean?
Me attempting to get reads on people, only works if they care enough to get out of the circular role discussions and actually do something... You can lead a horse to water...But it takes an ass to tell it that it's a horse.
So ask some questions that will lead to new different discussions. Duh. Get off your ass and find a way to break the circle, rather than just accusing everyone else of being useless.
Will everybody please stop pre-melting my shit? Please?This is mafia you two, you're not allowed to be funny :P
Fuck it that auto-correct is much funnier than what I meant.
Post by: TheDarkStar on May 31, 2017, 06:15:37 pm
TDS
2-4. Why are you rolefishing?
Jack A T: If you were completely kill/lynch immune, when would you claim it?
origamiscienceguy: If you were a serial killer and had a daykill, who would you kill today?doll: In your opinion, what is the most important thing to look for in someone's posts to get a read on them?
Shakerag: If you knew that the theme you submitted had a clear impact on your role, would you claim the theme?
doll: Why claim that you're going to die tonight rather than keeping quiet about it to try to waste one of the scum's kills?
lol
Why do you bother if someone else is rolefishing if you're doing the same?
There's a difference between trying to figure out people's perspective on different situations and just asking about features of their role. The first helps you see their alignment/how they approach the game, but the second is a good way to either put a target on someone else (if the person asking is town) or to figure out who good nightkill targets are (if the person asking is scum).
TheDarkStar:Shakerag: If you knew that the theme you submitted had a clear impact on your role, would you claim the theme?I suppose it would depend a lot on circumstances. What is my alignment, what is the game state, etc.
As you in favor of everyone theme-claiming on D1?
All:
I'm guessing, based on one of my abilities, that there are at least a handful of inspection powers (possibly even day inspects). So with a nod to Toaster I'm going to claim that I'm an sk-miller. Leave it to webadict to screw with me...
1. Yes, and for the record my theme is Recursion. I haven't seen it impact anything yet.
2. I'd be surprised about day inspects, since those seem really hard to balance. What's to stop someone with a day inspect from inspecting, say, me and immediately telling everyone about it before the scum have a chance to stop it?
TheDarkStar
What is the strangest but surprisingly effective scumhunting tactic you've ever seen?
In the Smstr w/ Love game a few years back I publicly declared I was on a team with a few people and then scumhunted to figure out if we were scum or not (we were, but we weren't sure about for half the game).
Post by: Pozzai on May 31, 2017, 06:16:38 pm
I wouldn't have minded. I do think it's an acceptable way of scoping out players new to a site, to get some pressure on them and see how they react, if they potentially is the crumbly sort of cracker.Well. This throws me off a little, but now I have a better feel of what to expect from you. Thanks for this. I can't tell, have you played on this site before? You almost sound like... you've been reading the thread about making games more newbie friendly, haven't you? Well, I don't expect veteran level play, but I do expect high-level play - your comments about not being new to mafia support this expectation.
I think there's a huge difference in doing this to people who are new, and people who are new to a site, and personally wouldn't do it to completely new players because it's a bit douchebaggerish, and while I can be intense and blunt while playing, I still do put fun > winning.
So who would be capable to do it to a new on site player, more or less everyone, and I have no feelings towards them, hard or otherwise, the few who would not are probably the people most interested in giving newsite players the most positive experience possible.
Who that'd be specifically in this game, Idk \o/
Gonna shower and catch up on rest of thread afterwards !
I haven't read anything at all on this forum except this thread :$
Flabort:Ahahahah. This is where the game gets REALLY started. Afraid to say that is my personal typical first-half-of-day-1 play, playing the part of the detached judge while the lawyers bicker it out. Once I start seeing results from my and other RQS questions, I start getting into the deep and gritty parts of it, arguing it out over the littlest details like Pheonix Wright fighting for a shred of evidence.
The FoS and the question towards me both feels very 'hands off'. Plays it safe in an attempt to not rock the boat, this overly carefulness is more scumindicative for me.
I also see that you think Doll was TOO into it. Is there an optimal level of activity, in your opinion?
[/quote]
*grmbl* the observer people are the hardest to read >_>
I don't have an issue with their activity, I have an issue with how they attempt to deflect all discussion away from their slot by making a claim that we essentially can't use for anything at this point.
If they're town, surely waiting with the claim till a later point when there's been more activity revolving themselves would give a greater scope of the game as a whole.
If scum of some kind, it could point towards it being important for them to reach n1, or that they due to being an obvious fakeclaim later are lynched and win as a jester type of role.
The demand and blind expectations of people to provide them with stuff while being all "don't talk about me" is fairly anti-town behaviour, as they've robbed us of any interaction analysis with them later if they are indeed town.
Overall I therefore consider there to be more scum motivation behind their behaviour than town.
Post by: Pozzai on May 31, 2017, 06:21:24 pm
Me attempting to get reads on people, only works if they care enough to get out of the circular role discussions and actually do something... You can lead a horse to water...But it takes an ass to tell it that it's a horse.
So ask some questions that will lead to new different discussions. Duh. Get off your ass and find a way to break the circle, rather than just accusing everyone else of being useless.
Stuff has been done, stuff has been set in motion, did you notice how what you just commented on earlier actually dragged you out of your hole to play the game and talk about analysis ?
Asking boring one dimensional questions does very little as you can usually somewhat infer what type of answer people want, questions only gets interesting when people have already taken a stance already, and you pressure them to defend it. Prior to me stating a bunch of reads/feels for the game, very few had taken stances.
Post by: flabort on May 31, 2017, 06:31:51 pm
Oh shush. We can be funny if we want, so long as it doesn't interfere with the game.Me attempting to get reads on people, only works if they care enough to get out of the circular role discussions and actually do something... You can lead a horse to water...But it takes an ass to tell it that it's a horse.
So ask some questions that will lead to new different discussions. Duh. Get off your ass and find a way to break the circle, rather than just accusing everyone else of being useless.Will everybody please stop pre-melting my shit? Please?This is mafia you two, you're not allowed to be funny :P
Fuck it that auto-correct is much funnier than what I meant.
Well, I guess that's difficult to argue with.Me attempting to get reads on people, only works if they care enough to get out of the circular role discussions and actually do something... You can lead a horse to water...But it takes an ass to tell it that it's a horse.
So ask some questions that will lead to new different discussions. Duh. Get off your ass and find a way to break the circle, rather than just accusing everyone else of being useless.
Stuff has been done, stuff has been set in motion, did you notice how what you just commented on earlier actually dragged you out of your hole to play the game and talk about analysis ?
Asking boring one dimensional questions does very little as you can usually somewhat infer what type of answer people want, questions only gets interesting when people have already taken a stance already, and you pressure them to defend it. Prior to me stating a bunch of reads/feels for the game, very few had taken stances.
Were my questions completely one dimensional, though?
I do have to concede that you are less lazy and suspicious than TBF.
Not quite what I asked you. I asked is there an optimal level of activity... though, I guess I more meant "engagement". Not why you have a scum read on Doll.QuoteFlabort:Ahahahah. This is where the game gets REALLY started. Afraid to say that is my personal typical first-half-of-day-1 play, playing the part of the detached judge while the lawyers bicker it out. Once I start seeing results from my and other RQS questions, I start getting into the deep and gritty parts of it, arguing it out over the littlest details like Pheonix Wright fighting for a shred of evidence.
The FoS and the question towards me both feels very 'hands off'. Plays it safe in an attempt to not rock the boat, this overly carefulness is more scumindicative for me.
I also see that you think Doll was TOO into it. Is there an optimal level of activity, in your opinion?
*grmbl* the observer people are the hardest to read >_>
I don't have an issue with their activity, I have an issue with how they attempt to deflect all discussion away from their slot by making a claim that we essentially can't use for anything at this point.
If they're town, surely waiting with the claim till a later point when there's been more activity revolving themselves would give a greater scope of the game as a whole.
If scum of some kind, it could point towards it being important for them to reach n1, or that they due to being an obvious fakeclaim later are lynched and win as a jester type of role.
The demand and blind expectations of people to provide them with stuff while being all "don't talk about me" is fairly anti-town behaviour, as they've robbed us of any interaction analysis with them later if they are indeed town.
Overall I therefore consider there to be more scum motivation behind their behaviour than town.
But I guess, buried in there, is the answer I was looking for.
Quote
I don't have an issue with their activity, I have an issue with how they attempt to deflect all discussion away from their slot by making a claim that we essentially can't use for anything at this point.So the more engaged and visible to you the better, right? With the caveat that specifically attention grabbing tactics are bad. I... have to agree with you on that one.
Post by: Pozzai on May 31, 2017, 06:39:04 pm
Oh shush. We can be funny if we want, so long as it doesn't interfere with the game.Me attempting to get reads on people, only works if they care enough to get out of the circular role discussions and actually do something... You can lead a horse to water...But it takes an ass to tell it that it's a horse.
So ask some questions that will lead to new different discussions. Duh. Get off your ass and find a way to break the circle, rather than just accusing everyone else of being useless.Will everybody please stop pre-melting my shit? Please?This is mafia you two, you're not allowed to be funny :P
Fuck it that auto-correct is much funnier than what I meant.Well, I guess that's difficult to argue with.Me attempting to get reads on people, only works if they care enough to get out of the circular role discussions and actually do something... You can lead a horse to water...But it takes an ass to tell it that it's a horse.
So ask some questions that will lead to new different discussions. Duh. Get off your ass and find a way to break the circle, rather than just accusing everyone else of being useless.
Stuff has been done, stuff has been set in motion, did you notice how what you just commented on earlier actually dragged you out of your hole to play the game and talk about analysis ?
Asking boring one dimensional questions does very little as you can usually somewhat infer what type of answer people want, questions only gets interesting when people have already taken a stance already, and you pressure them to defend it. Prior to me stating a bunch of reads/feels for the game, very few had taken stances.
Were my questions completely one dimensional, though?
I do have to concede that you are less lazy and suspicious than TBF.Not quite what I asked you. I asked is there an optimal level of activity... though, I guess I more meant "engagement". Not why you have a scum read on Doll.QuoteFlabort:Ahahahah. This is where the game gets REALLY started. Afraid to say that is my personal typical first-half-of-day-1 play, playing the part of the detached judge while the lawyers bicker it out. Once I start seeing results from my and other RQS questions, I start getting into the deep and gritty parts of it, arguing it out over the littlest details like Pheonix Wright fighting for a shred of evidence.
The FoS and the question towards me both feels very 'hands off'. Plays it safe in an attempt to not rock the boat, this overly carefulness is more scumindicative for me.
I also see that you think Doll was TOO into it. Is there an optimal level of activity, in your opinion?
*grmbl* the observer people are the hardest to read >_>
I don't have an issue with their activity, I have an issue with how they attempt to deflect all discussion away from their slot by making a claim that we essentially can't use for anything at this point.
If they're town, surely waiting with the claim till a later point when there's been more activity revolving themselves would give a greater scope of the game as a whole.
If scum of some kind, it could point towards it being important for them to reach n1, or that they due to being an obvious fakeclaim later are lynched and win as a jester type of role.
The demand and blind expectations of people to provide them with stuff while being all "don't talk about me" is fairly anti-town behaviour, as they've robbed us of any interaction analysis with them later if they are indeed town.
Overall I therefore consider there to be more scum motivation behind their behaviour than town.
But I guess, buried in there, is the answer I was looking for.QuoteI don't have an issue with their activity, I have an issue with how they attempt to deflect all discussion away from their slot by making a claim that we essentially can't use for anything at this point.So the more engaged and visible to you the better, right? With the caveat that specifically attention grabbing tactics are bad. I... have to agree with you on that one.
I didn't particulary note down every question asked and deem it "x or y" I've merely read most of them and not considered a lot of them anything I personally get anything from, or would have much issue answering identically as either alignment.
In terms of optimal activity, not really, it highly depends on what their content is.
If a person posts 95% fluff, I generally consider their most pro-town activity to be near non-existant.
In other words, I don't, as I have known a few other people to do across forums, give people townreads for high activity. I will potentially give them a townread for high activity with a high percentage of content, given it's decent content.
I will however adapt from person to person, but mainly if I have meta on them.
A player that both Tea and I have played with I hardly ever read on content, but purely on activity and how genuine the interactions they have with other people, but without prior knowledge of anyone in this game, it's most likely not a method I will use this game.
Post by: 4maskwolf on May 31, 2017, 06:40:27 pm
I will spear your quote pyramids because they are unhealthy for browsers.
Post by: TheDarkStar on May 31, 2017, 06:49:04 pm
I will spear your quote pyramids because they are unhealthy for browsers.
These ones aren't too bad in terms of depth, but they're still really hard to read because they're more like quote mountain ranges.
Post by: Tea on May 31, 2017, 07:01:31 pm
I described it as milking because you did multiple things before I ever posted to frame my relationship to the thread around the wagon on me and nothing else - voting me, asking for an immediate reaction to the wagon, and then talking to Lenglon about his vote on me. This has more or less continued since (e.g. the question to Persus and your responses to me). It's also been my previous experience here that people will for some reason sort of shrug at the actual posts I make (maybe due to formatting?) and hyper-focus on anything that has to do with votes.Considering Pozzai was already at the bottom of the playerlist I'm not sure why him ending up in that spot took that much more thought for you? Also, there's a pretty significant tonal shift from your question to OrigamiScienceGuy and your question to TolyK, which I'm curious about.Tea: Regarding Pozzai, questions were not written entirely in OP player order. Regarding the tonal shift, the Tiruin and OSG questions are both me not taking RVS all that seriously and me trying to see how two players respond to vague, open-ended questions that have the trappings of jokes. I put thought into my shitty RVS questions. Well, except the one to Shakerag.I'm uncomfortable because I feel like the continual milking of reactions to this hella artificial thing diverts attention from things more likely to make the thread understand me and vice-versa."Milking" implies more effort in forcing reactions than was put in. It is how little I did to generate your visible discomfort that makes me interested. Many things could divert attention from the material most likely to help people understand you, but you're not demonstrating this sort of discomfort about "what would you do if you were a jester and had a daykill that only worked on Tuesdays at noon PST while shaving" questions. You don't talk about those as if they are the most important things in the thread to their targets. You don't hint at alignment relevance for them. You dismiss them as, well, them. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164260.msg7470985#msg7470985)
I think in a vacuum asking unproductive questions is more scummy than not, but I'm kinda seeking help from people who moreso understand what's typical in terms of questioning regarding how to read into people's.
Lenglon is pretty unproductive question dense, but I liked this post from him a lot more than I dislike the prior questions:
Doll: If my not-fully-awake brain understands you correctly, you claimed to get maximum influence over other players for the brief (1-day) timespan youll be alive. so... congrats, youve got influence over me, whadaya want me doing? ya want a claim? a vote on a specific target? a... what?I feel like it's appropriately cagey as well as productive.
why did you gather influence on me and then not use it? that stuff has an expiration data ya know.
TheBiggerFish seems like he's posting for the sake of it - it would be easy for him to look up himself if I've previous experience on this site, for instance.
Dark Star, Persus, flabort, and FoU have all gone into some theory queries/hypotheticals recently that I'm having trouble parsing the purpose of, and most of them have done so in lieu of taking much stance on the game itself, but I look forward to seeing what they do with the answers. In FoU's case, there's a decent amount of "here's what could be alignment indicative for questions" but less analysis of this actual game than I'd like.
So, one more question. You mentioned that you don't see Pozzai or Lenglon's votes as alignment-indicative. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164260.msg7470455#msg7470455) Having examined the question block, what can you say about my vote?I don't think I've anything new to say on the matter. I won't be shy about giving a clear stance on your play when I'm ready to. Like, I think you carry yourself in a very intentional and pretty self-assured manner but fuck if I know your probable alignment.
Curious about using flabort's reaction is what I meant....Even though you posted before the game was rolled here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164260.msg7470323#msg7470323), you weren't curious about flabort's reaction until after reading your role PM? Because I felt like that was really the meat of what you decided to include about your claim - using that pregame information as a jumping off point to create RVS information (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164260.msg7470722#msg7470722).What is there to be curious about? flabort did not get a reference to something in a field he is not in. What was interesting was that Webadict referenced the theme in the thread title, which flabort's post helpfully archived.
Tea: So what, in your opinion, is the ideal D1 play?I have an easier time forming reads in an environment with:
Fewer hypotheticals - conversation is very much focused on actual in-game events and statements.
More of a conversational flow in general - greater transparency about one's thoughts, more of people's choices of what to talk about self-determined as opposed to prompted by others
I do not have much of an opinion on "collective reads," Flabort. Definite potential for being presumptive, but I'm more nihilism-prone lately than is practical, I think.
Post by: TolyK on May 31, 2017, 07:06:48 pm
About my action, it should be resolved once Wuba gets back.
PPE:
Tea:
"Infinite" night actions generally means you can set a "rule" for how to use them, and the result is figured out by the mod using logic.
For example:
- one ability lets you use "points" to do it instead of the usual one-action-per-phase restriction
- another one lets you gain points (usually in a finite manner)
- a third makes you die at the end of the day/night if you have negative points
This would be close to what it seems doll is claiming.
Post by: TheDarkStar on May 31, 2017, 07:18:56 pm
Pyramids are generally fine for me, because I just skip them unless the text below specifically refers to them. I guess it can break some browsers, though, if they overlap too much.
About my action, it should be resolved once Wuba gets back.
PPE:
Tea:
"Infinite" night actions generally means you can set a "rule" for how to use them, and the result is figured out by the mod using logic.
For example:
- one ability lets you use "points" to do it instead of the usual one-action-per-phase restriction
- another one lets you gain points (usually in a finite manner)
- a third makes you die at the end of the day/night if you have negative points
This would be close to what it seems doll is claiming.
It's going to be slightly different though, since doll only claimed to have two kills available to him (although presumably he can use other actions as many times as he wants to).
Post by: TheBiggerFish on May 31, 2017, 07:31:49 pm
EBWOPI'm not being lazy, I'm trying to sort out a lease. Also this thread is moving fast enough I'm having trouble keeping up with it sometimes, geez.
You know, I can't tell who's being the lazier one. TheBiggerFish or Pozzai. If I had two votes they would both be used for pressure votes now.
That said: hector:What was that post supposed to mean?
Pozzai:Why haven't you read anything else on this forum? Have you not even read the pinned threads (in this subforum)?
More later.
Post by: TheBiggerFish on May 31, 2017, 07:35:15 pm
"Won't it counterwork the attempt"Bay12 is one of the slower communities out there in terms of posting speed, the only reason I'm even remotely as active as I am right now is it's my day off and many of the others work jobs where they can't exactly post during the middle of the day as well.What you're describing is pretty standard for early game: people will form opinions and will make accusations, and some of them are already starting to do so now based on people's play so far, but the game is still young and those opinions have little to back them up. The claims are merely a way to facilitate discussion and fish for reactions that can be used to form actual reads.
I am aware what the purpose is, but that it takes this long to get out of it is frustrating to say the least.
I have NEVER had a game where I nearly 24hours into a game didn't have a townread somewhere, and the one dimensional questions asked doesn't bode too well for me.
I would've expected now that for instance Jack had returned they'd be like "so this is all the amasing information I got" to progress the game, instead they returned with a rather bland bunch of responses.
But alright then, you're looking for townreads. how do you go about finding them? What would you use to get these reads and why aren't you actively pursuing that now? If you are actively pursuing reads on others, what's getting in the way of having those reads.
Who says I haven't, and wont it counterwork the attempt if I explain what I do to get them?
I'm not sure I understand how you get this idea. Scum aren't perfect actors, and vastly different play right after you state how you make reads is probably a scumtell.
"Who says I haven't"
If you do, you haven't shared them.
Post by: FallacyofUrist on May 31, 2017, 07:53:38 pm
OK, here's the question.Maybe. Could be. Unusual, but that's how webadict BYORs are. Whether or not Shakerag is any flavor of scum will have to wait until he posts more.
What do you want to bet that Shakes is an SK-Miller Scum? :P There's nothing saying that a miller HAS to be town, after all, just that they are TYPICALLY town behind their inaccurate investigation.
Well, considering there's very little I could do to prove I'm not a cult leader, sans opening up all my cards, I would probably not care too much unless you were actively trying to lead the town to my lynch (and potentially succeeding). Since my death would probably be a setback for the town, I'd consider explaining my role in more detail to convince that I'm not a cult leader.Okay. Makes sense. But... to me specifically? Not people in general?
Interestingly, if Jack accepts the experiment, I could more or less prove to you specifically that I'm not a cult leader during this day. I would prefer not to, but I might if it comes to that.
FallacyofUrist, what's your preferred alignment?The one that's most fun to play. Can't give you a straight answer because it depends on circumstances. For example, if I was town for several games in a row, I might consider town less fun than playing mafia.
Return question:
Given your current alignment, would you rather be a different one? Why?
[1] You have engaged in what I expect of reasonable RVS play. Kinda.[1]: What part of my RVS play wasn't reasonable? Good to hear I'm part of the way there...
Anyway, you claim your day game needs work. [2] What do you think makes a good day game, and who has displayed it so far? [3] Who has not? [4] What do you think this means regarding these players alignment? (alignments? I Kant England twoday)
[2]: Now, the day game is different depending on what phase of the game one is in. I'm assuming you're referring to a good initial voting stage.
You. Flabort. 4maskwolf. Jack A T.
[3]:
Doll. TheBiggerFish.
The rest are kinda in between.
Now for the rest. What makes a good day game? Activity, for one. Both in the sense of post count and activeness--that is, the seeking out of new leads, following of old ones, and response to questioning. Meaningful stuff, y'know?
[4]:
Now, it is a bit early, for the most part, to comment on alignment. For the most part, people look like either active or lazy town to me. Doll is an exception, and TolyK is bordering on one(my opinion might change when the experiment goes through). Doll is deliberately making herself the center of attention. As in, that's what she's going for, not creating it as a side effect of what she's doing. I'm thinking third party, because scum wouldn't be so audacious(but then, it could be a bizarre gambit). I suppose we'll see Day 2. Maybe she's a jester trying to get herself lynched Day 2 when she's found alive. Well, we'll see. As for TolyK... if he's not town, he's a cult leader, but it is less solid than it is with doll. I might look into Persus(Perseus?)' behavior in a bit, based on your own accusation, for the moment though, lazy town.
Fallacy: I agree in general, though specific situations will vary widely. The counter-normative approach discourages risk-averse players. In the case of 4maskwolf today, it is weakened somewhat by the context (RVS, relevance to my question to him...), but the concern came off both as real and as something he wanted out there.
[4] What do you think of his move (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164260.msg7470396#msg7470396)?
In addition, I just accepted TolyK's chat deal. [2] You find his offer rather questionable. [1] What do you think of this? [3] How has your read of me changed?
Ninja fishes!
[1]: Well, I'm not sure if webadict has gotten to that yet. Have you gotten the chat link or whatnot?
[2]: Potentially questionable. It's... interesting, a potential threat. Not sure yet.
[3]: Well, I didn't have much of a read on you other than active town. I'll have to look at your posts after this deal effects your behavior to decide if you've changed.
[4]: Well, webadict applied themes to something. He asked for theme submissions, after all. However, I don't think we're going to be able to do much with theme knowledge without role knowledge, so we can see what the themes may have been applied to. So, yah, relevant down the line. The odds of it throwing people off right now don't seem high, though. We're pretty focused on other stuff. And people don't seem to be going along with a mass theme claim if that's what you're going for.
The theme falls within my ongoing spree of stunt openings, in which I try to get something of actual value by behaving abnormally. This one sort of fizzled.Also this. Basically, you're trying to amplify RVS using a theme claim.
Do you think doll is performing a similar gambit? If so, why?
Ah yes this is typical of Shakerag.[1]: Am I? Is that typical of the entirety or majority of my behavior? But if you want to know why I asked Shakerag those questions... I was probing for reactions. Like usual. Shakerag isn't giving me much to work with, though.He's town guys, no worries.I definitely think you should read #4, it's funny as shit, but yes he is clearly shitposting. [1] Fallacy why are you shit posting?
And I finally made it through the stuff addressed to me. Whew.
Post by: Pozzai on May 31, 2017, 07:54:12 pm
Pozzai:Why haven't you read anything else on this forum? Have you not even read the pinned threads (in this subforum)?
Any reason I should?
Typically it's just "these are what mafia is" "don't act like an idiot" etc etc.
I generally don't intend to go into a mafia game being a dick, so generally all the common rules of forum and subsites are not things I manage to break so \o/
"Won't it counterwork the attempt"Bay12 is one of the slower communities out there in terms of posting speed, the only reason I'm even remotely as active as I am right now is it's my day off and many of the others work jobs where they can't exactly post during the middle of the day as well.What you're describing is pretty standard for early game: people will form opinions and will make accusations, and some of them are already starting to do so now based on people's play so far, but the game is still young and those opinions have little to back them up. The claims are merely a way to facilitate discussion and fish for reactions that can be used to form actual reads.
I am aware what the purpose is, but that it takes this long to get out of it is frustrating to say the least.
I have NEVER had a game where I nearly 24hours into a game didn't have a townread somewhere, and the one dimensional questions asked doesn't bode too well for me.
I would've expected now that for instance Jack had returned they'd be like "so this is all the amasing information I got" to progress the game, instead they returned with a rather bland bunch of responses.
But alright then, you're looking for townreads. how do you go about finding them? What would you use to get these reads and why aren't you actively pursuing that now? If you are actively pursuing reads on others, what's getting in the way of having those reads.
Who says I haven't, and wont it counterwork the attempt if I explain what I do to get them?
I'm not sure I understand how you get this idea. Scum aren't perfect actors, and vastly different play right after you state how you make reads is probably a scumtell.
"Who says I haven't"
If you do, you haven't shared them.
I haven't shared them(well kind of have in some interactions) and I wont, because it breaks the purpose.
If I say "I did this and that because I hope to get these results" I murk the waters for the results I get.
There's no point in giving people an exact blueprint of what you're doing/intending to do.
Post by: FallacyofUrist on May 31, 2017, 07:57:44 pm
Typically it's just "these are what mafia is" "don't act like an idiot" etc etc.NYAHAHAHA!
Now, from the top:
1. What games are going to be hosted soon.
2. New player stuff, you can skip this.
3. Mafia setup discussion and review, for mods.
4. I'll get back to this one.
5. Ah, lurkertracker. The thing that you zap a thread with and it tells you who's lurking, no searching needed. Also counts votes. Mafia Tools and Utilities.
6. New player stuff.
I'd recommend you take a look at 4. Notable Games Archive. Start by reading the BYOR section. It's funny.
Post by: Pozzai on May 31, 2017, 08:04:07 pm
Typically it's just "these are what mafia is" "don't act like an idiot" etc etc.NYAHAHAHA!
Now, from the top:
1. What games are going to be hosted soon.
2. New player stuff, you can skip this.
3. Mafia setup discussion and review, for mods.
4. I'll get back to this one.
5. Ah, lurkertracker. The thing that you zap a thread with and it tells you who's lurking, no searching needed. Also counts votes. Mafia Tools and Utilities.
6. New player stuff.
I'd recommend you take a look at 4. Notable Games Archive. Start by reading the BYOR section. It's funny.
But what if I am lazy in terms of reading extra effects ! I tend to phase in and out of threads of games I'm in while doing work or other things... Having to read other threads outside the game thread means I'll be distracted !
Post by: Pozzai on May 31, 2017, 08:09:41 pm
What's your 3 strongest leans/reads at this point of the game, what one thing do you consider the most important factor this far?
Post by: webadict on May 31, 2017, 08:24:17 pm
Additionally, I am watching the thread as closely as I can. You are all hilarious when you try to guess what I'm thinking. But, if I miss a question, feel free to PM me about it.
Now, go back to what you're doing. And be more Anime Cowgirl-esque, doll. You earned this.
Vote Count
------------------------
4maskwolf -
doll -
FallacyOfUrist -
flabort -
hector13 -
Jack A T -
Lenglon - 4maskwolf,
origamascienceguy -
Persus13 - hector13,
Pozzai -
Shakerag -
Tea - Pozzai, Jack A T, Lenglon,
TheBiggerFish - flabort,
TheDarkStar -
Tiruin -
TolyK - FallacyOfUrist,
No Lynch -
Not Voting - Shakerag, TheDarkStar, Tiruin, origamascienceguy, TolyK, Persus13, TheBiggerFish, doll, Tea,
9 To Hammer. Day Ends on Monday, June 5th at 8:00 PM CST. There is an Extension available.
Post by: FallacyofUrist on May 31, 2017, 08:37:03 pm
But what if I am lazy in terms of reading extra effects ! I tend to phase in and out of threads of games I'm in while doing work or other things... Having to read other threads outside the game thread means I'll be distracted !You aren't expected to spend one hundred percent of your time on a single mafia game. And you don't have to read all of the BYORs. Start with one, preferably a shorter one with more of the players that are here. It's not mandatory, but it might be helpful to understand how webadict BYORs generally work.
Post by: flabort on May 31, 2017, 08:55:14 pm
Well, it might help to give him something that isn't tailored to his BS.Ah yes this is typical of Shakerag.[1]: Am I? Is that typical of the entirety or majority of my behavior? But if you want to know why I asked Shakerag those questions... I was probing for reactions. Like usual. Shakerag isn't giving me much to work with, though.He's town guys, no worries.I definitely think you should read #4, it's funny as shit, but yes he is clearly shitposting. [1] Fallacy why are you shit posting?
And I finally made it through the stuff addressed to me. Whew.
Post by: TheBiggerFish on May 31, 2017, 09:53:22 pm
Pozzai:If you have reads, share them.
Post by: Pozzai on May 31, 2017, 09:55:05 pm
Pozzai:If you have reads, share them.
Already did >_>
Post by: origamiscienceguy on May 31, 2017, 11:03:39 pm
Post by: Tea on May 31, 2017, 11:56:21 pm
Return question:I did roll my preferred alignment. I think the only reason I would want to be a different alignment is that I feel like I would have more information about wtf I actually need to do to win.
Given your current alignment, would you rather be a different one? Why?
@TeaLenglon seems town/motivated to think critically + work with others for this post (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164260.msg7470823#msg7470823).
What's your 3 strongest leans/reads at this point of the game, what one thing do you consider the most important factor this far?
It will absolutely be known if this changes but TheDarkStar has better tone than I've ever seen from him + isn't being disgustingly agenda-y so maybe he's not mafia for once.
FallacyofUrist is, uh. Thinking about the game like someone who expects to be around for a long time, for whatever reason? Which is probably a better tell in a standard game than here but I don't quite follow why he's directing effort toward the things that he's directing them to, or why he thinks he's getting ~nothing out of Shakerag but isn't ranking Shakerag in a similar category to doll/TheBiggerFIsh. He's doing lots of theory talk about scumtells that seem fairly divorced from what people are doing in the game itself, lots of ~I'll look into getting actual reads later~, lots of Here's What I'll Care About on Day 2. I didn't like his reaction to being asked why he was shitposting - sounded to me like ~I'm Self-Aware of What I Usually Do And I'm Telling You About It Even Though It Wasn't Asked Of Me~ (x (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164260.msg7471314#msg7471314)).
Post by: Pozzai on June 01, 2017, 12:11:12 am
*snip*
Did you have any pre-planned actions/attitudes for this game as you occationally does?
Post by: Tea on June 01, 2017, 12:32:05 am
Nah, other than generally wanting to post more / second-guess myself less.*snip*
Did you have any pre-planned actions/attitudes for this game as you occationally does?
Do you think my reads are bad?
Post by: Pozzai on June 01, 2017, 12:42:41 am
Nah, other than generally wanting to post more / second-guess myself less.*snip*
Did you have any pre-planned actions/attitudes for this game as you occationally does?
Do you think my reads are bad?
One is a meta so probably can't feel one way or the other about that, do you read them in a Vaimes sort of way?
I didn't see the thing you did about Lenglon to be fair.
And I think I need to be in a better(read more awake) state to see whether I can follow your thoughts on Fallacy.
It was all on people I generally had no idea about, so that's interesting at least.
Post by: TolyK on June 01, 2017, 03:50:29 am
At least look at the roleflips to get a sense of the kinds of roles there are typically in these games. Note that there can be different power levels, of course.But what if I am lazy in terms of reading extra effects ! I tend to phase in and out of threads of games I'm in while doing work or other things... Having to read other threads outside the game thread means I'll be distracted !You aren't expected to spend one hundred percent of your time on a single mafia game. And you don't have to read all of the BYORs. Start with one, preferably a shorter one with more of the players that are here. It's not mandatory, but it might be helpful to understand how webadict BYORs generally work.
I'm now basically waiting on Jack.
OSG
Sorry for not posting, my siblings need the computer for their finals (my finals are all done, but theirs are not) I promise to read through and post a reads list of everybody tomorrow, with a couple in-depth reads if I notice anything strange.Please do. Can you specifically also say what you think of the general direction that players are pushing? I'm interested in how your thoughts compare to mine.
Please do.
Post by: TolyK on June 01, 2017, 04:07:46 am
PozzaiHold on, are you saying that we shouldn't be calling out scum play?
...
Do you think it's wise to be telegraphing the things you find scummy so early?
Quote
Persus13"A woody sort of sound... Gaud.... GAUD..."
I don't like you.Also, this game has hammers, so please be careful about bandwagons on people.
This is a part of why.
The rest of your post seems rather... wooden, like it's there just to be there.
Mostly I don't like you.
Jokes aside...
- Why don't you like the post against wagons? Granted it's 9 to hammer, so it's premise is incorrect, but why else?
- You don't like the person > You think they're scummy? In terms of what you just said. How is that particularly relevant?
- Is it because you're fighting over number 13? :p
- Can you explain why you say there's no substance in his post?
Quote
dollSo, what do you think about doll now, after not much more had been said by her (i.e. after she's gone quiet)?hector13
Blah blah competent player don't want to clog this up with RVS is that a good idea kashira nano desu ne
Is what I'm doing a good idea at all, do you think?
I like this question. I really like this question. If I could make a question human and have s-
*cough*
I mean, sure, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. You're a competent player too.
I might come back to this later. Then again, I might not.
Unless you want me to not engage in a tit-for-tat "who can be more ambiguous" thing... while entertaining, I s'pose I'll go with my gut and not do that.
Sure, I like what you're doing. You're being typically verbose though, which I'm not a fan of, and you're taking up a great deal of attention early doors, which isn't necessarily a bad thing. The tone of your D1 posts has changed again though; uncertain if that's intentional or you're just having fun with what you have right now.
This isn't something I can really give an accurate thought on, given I need to see how you conclude it. Presently: so far, so good.
Quote
How is this supposed to help? I get it's a reaction test, but aren't we out of that stage already?FallacyOfUristWhat, expecting me to answer? How about this: I'll tell you what my role isn't. For Day 1: Seto Kaiba. That is, that's not my role.
What's your role, FoU-chan?
10) Have fun with the wifom, nano desu
Now, the question is, whether you're scum trying to get role information out of this, or town trying to see how I react to blatant role fishing.
Return question: Pick two of these five questions to answer.
1. Are you willing to provide a list of Japanese honorifics and what they mean to this forum?
2. Does your theme have anything to do with peacocks?
3. If you had a night kill that only works on cult leaders and survivors, would you use it in lieu of your normal actions?
4. If you had a self-revive that only works during the first two cycles, would you make an effort to direct the scum kill to yourself?
5. Rate each of these questions in terms of usefulness on a scale from 1 to 5 where 1 is the highest and 5 is the lowest.
Quote
I'm sad there's less of it than I thought :'(Of the game or of your own post? Yours seemed to have been pretty hefty. :p
Post by: TheBiggerFish on June 01, 2017, 04:11:07 am
This post brought to you by "Mafia at 5 in the morning".
Post by: TheBiggerFish on June 01, 2017, 04:11:38 am
Post by: webadict on June 01, 2017, 06:04:01 am
Webadict:If we request a votecount, will that proc day actions?No, because no matter how many votecounts you ask for, I will only post one somewhere around 8 PM Central because I can't post votecounts at work. Or maybe I can, if I make a bot that just makes votecounts. But then your Day actions won't be processed when I make votecounts regardless.
Pozzai:If you have reads, share them.
So no.
Post by: Tiruin on June 01, 2017, 06:44:33 am
Tiruin: how do i byorYou already are! :D
Quote
And so it starts.HUM @_@
A claim: My theme is the balance of threat (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balance_of_threat), a concept from my field of study, international relations. Yes, my theme is the apparent basis of the title flabort did not get. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164260.msg7470311#msg7470311)
Well I'll give my theme: Metaknowledge. [This is untrue]
My powers are boosted if I know your role names or abilities. :P And this is a softclaim.
Everyone: What're y'all impressions of me! :3 Am I a magnet yet. Please treat me as a magnet.
Jack A T: Why do you BYOR D:
And more specifically, I trust y'all, and only at least I presume 3 are scummy scumbags, SO! I'm inferring that I'm not the only one who needs rolenames and otherwise, and I ask anyone who doesn't at least 95%+ trust me to not mention anything about it :V
*doot doot* reading reading, many pages. Newbie Tea-friend, please condense your stuffs into a single post; it's okay to post multiple times though in this Mafia subforum :P
Also hiii Tea! Miss seeing you! :3
In all seriousness; Jack, how do you feel about my response to you, and to everyone noted here?
My role is pretty genki!!B-but your spoilers are empty.
I'll explain why I can tell you this in a bit
AND YOU ARE NOW MY BEST FRIEND. BE MY BUDDY!
Eh, I'll wait just a bit before full claiming.Butts. :I #1.
For now though:
1) I'm dying tonight
2) I'm unblockable
3) My role is very strong
4) I suspect that there may exist daygame powers which can snipe me before I get to night 1
5) That includes voting control powers
6) Therefore, anyone who votes me today is madcrazy suspicious if I don't get all my fireworks off
7) Therefore, don't vote me if you are town
8) I'm probably going to get daykilled or something anyway
9) Jokes on you scum, you I actually need to make it to Day 2 and couldn't think of a good way to dodge the scumkill
10) Have fun with the wifom, nano desu
And here I thought I was gonna smother you with UNKNOWING LOVE because I finally get to play in a game with Doll that's pretty cool. I: HMPF.
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TiruinBut-but I'll miss you :< again. And then I'll wish you well just because.
Like I said, I'm mostly skipping RVS this time because I've only got a day to play the game in.
After that I'll be dead, though my ghost (and my theme) will live on.
Or uh, not live on but still have actions within the game.
Anyway, I suspect the language barrier is going to get to be more a problem the more I slip in japanese sentence endings, so if it's not super obvious to you what I'm going for and someone else seems to get it, you can ask yo.
Oh, and I don't like asking you RVS questions because your mindset is opaque and transparent in different ways to most of the other players, so I'll try to keep my reads of you clean.
After all, I only have a day to decide whether or not to kill you.
If anyone else is reading, it's plaintive I skipped Randomness too here and am playing for funsies :D
Also nothing is obvious to me about what you're doing, so yeah. I'm pretty much going to target you tonight and my only problem will be redirectors :V
What do you think about my reaction towards you, Doll?
Reading is TOO HARD FOR YOU THEN?!<words>That was difficult to read through.
Unvote, TolyK.
But in all seriousness, you're biting into doll too much. He's ossum in how he says stuffs--and I like how he subtly acknowledges me in part :3
OTHERWISE I'M OBVIOUSLY DEFENDING DOLL. BECAUSE HE'S DYING TONIGHT! DX And I'm believing him I:
All:I have no inspection powers unless I know the person's role name. :v So that's an auxiliary action for funsies.
I'm guessing, based on one of my abilities, that there are at least a handful of inspection powers (possibly even day inspects). So with a nod to Toaster I'm going to claim that I'm an sk-miller. Leave it to webadict to screw with me...
Unvote, Shakerag.
You are very forthcoming. I like you.
But can you explain what an sk-miller IS?! Do you wanna KEEL ME!? I know you do! O_O
In all seriousness: I choose to not believe you on that bit; you can lie about your role and such, and it's a bit touchy-sensitive-y to denote 'I made my role bluh-y so this is my claim because of it'
Why are you claiming SK-Miller when both results are anti-town anyway?
(Also if I ever die, can my death flavor include cake?)
TiruinWell my laptop is on a table, and I'm sitting on a chair with my back straight (dun wanna develop bad spinal posture now do we?), and whenever I see doll, my cognitive mechanisms recall a particular other person who was as particular and knowledgeable as him--my best friend called Vector. So physically, I inhale and exhale and nod, because I see 'doll', and I recall 'Vector' and other nice friends, and I feel relaxed and excited. Because in knowing Doll for quite a while, I have become familiar with them--their playstyle is a whole different story, but otherwise, he is just like Toaster and Jim Groovester to me; an ol' mentor-person that I look up to.
Each time Doll makes a post, how do you physically react? Does anyone else give you a similar feeling? Does anyone give you a worse feeling?
And that goes for literally everyone else that I become familiarized with, because out of game, we're all good buddies over time or at least over information. In-game, I physically scan my laptop screen and see everyone's posts as they are. I focus on the content, not feeling anything at all different from person to person. All my actions and nature towards others are moreso to this content, however my emotional reaction also biases me, like how I see Lenglon as a buddy-who-may-be-Town, but she was also Scum back in previous games. But in general I feel relaxed and excited.
WHY ARE YOU SCOPIN' OUT MY BUDDY, FLABORT?! WHY ONLY HIM!?
I MISSED YOU TOO!
In all seriousness: Why is your only question to me about Doll? Do you have a particular interest in him?
And did you leave me open to answer about anyone else? {Lenglon, Jack, you, Doll, and others I've grown close to or familiar and comfortable with are those I'm relaxed and excited with; the rest are the same too--newbies have a curious and excited reaction}
No waaaait. Unvote; vote TBF
doll:Are you dying because of your role, or because you expect the Mafia to kill you with that claim?Why do you care?
And!
Tea: The question stands, who the heck are you?Who the heck are you to ask her things like these?
Treat her like another darn player. :I
Because she's been here around as much as you have--just that she disappeared beforehand.
Do you need a background biography to know them?
And is that question even relevant?
[Ok but seriously, that question was toned badly <_< and it seemed off that you missed the response]
In all seriousness: My vote on you is actually serious.
What have you learned about the many other people today, and what do you feel about this game being more than 10 people?
How do you think it will affect socialization?
I'm stopping reading at page 18 because wow.
I'll catch up after sleeps! z_z
Post by: doll on June 01, 2017, 08:25:53 am
And be more Anime Cowgirl-esque, doll.yare yare nano dawa
I can't be a kawaii hegel in the everyday if I want to be understood
Let's go something straight:
1) Webadict-san liked me best
2) Webadict-san said I was the future, the next generation
3) Webadict-san is dead
4) This was senpai's town
5) This is my town now
So, who am I to make this claim?
I was going to post everything I have in the first post, but I needed some thing clarified first.
Those things are clarified.
Here is my fullclaim:
Spoiler: kore wa fullclaim des (click to show/hide)
I intend to use (E) to use (D) twice and (A) and (B) some arbitrary number of times on every player in night 1.
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Well doll, you're the town mayor. What are you going to do with that power of yours?I'll arbitrarily ignore most questions to me because there's no need for me to justify myself when I can just kill people who don't do what I want.
Okay, I can see why webadict says I play like a dictator, nano des.
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And what then?Well, first I thought I'd engage in some petty bickering.
I am NOT newI'm sorry, you're not new, you're bad.
That's much worse, see, because new players are usually easy to read, nano.
If you're not easy to read, why should I keep to around?
The answer is, I shouldn't, desu.
Flabort, FoU, anyone else uninspired to post about a case on me
1) Either I've fucked up Day 1 for no reason at all and am the most obvious lynch possible on Day 2, or I'm not going to be here come Day 2
2) Therefore, vote me if I am alive D2+ and don't vote me otherwise
That's the entirety of the case on me. The fact that you've somehow managed to post more on that on the topic indicates active lurking, or a generally unhelpful and useless mindset.
FallacyofUrist-chan
Post a full reads list.
That includes justifications for your reads.
It's well past where you can post one.
Spoiler: FallacyofUrist isn't town, kashira? (click to show/hide)
If I can kill FoU with a vote, it saves me wasting a kill (and makes scum unable to predict the kill and avoid doubling up on the same townie where I miss).
Also, If I kill FoU I'm quite unlikely to revive him unless I've got little but to do so, so a vote is better in that regards so I can revive people who are worth keeping in the game.
The rest of you are under no obligation to vote with me, but I would like to see a good justification behind whoever gets lynched at the end of this day.
Spoiler: Pozzai isn't even cute nano des (click to show/hide)
bakuhatsu shiro, sou desu yone?
And yes, I'm the class bully. Tiruin is usually the class rep.
Unfortunately for you, I'm the one with the gun.
What do you think about my reaction towards you, Doll?I don't care nano.
You're making the right read, like hector and 4mask-chan.
That's to be expected, desu.
4maskwolf isn't obvscum this time like he was in the BM.
I hardly expected to kill one of the reliable players here.
Unless you've got a suggestion for me I'll mostly be thinking about how to interpret your behavior after my death.
Post by: Shakerag on June 01, 2017, 08:54:57 am
Good news is that I got shitfaced last night.
Bad news is that I played Underail, TF2, and fell asleep while Rocket League was loading.
I'll arbitrarily ignore most questions to me because there's no need for me to justify myself when I can just kill people who don't do what I want.Huh. Your call, but in my professional opinion ... get fucked, mate.
Post by: TolyK on June 01, 2017, 08:57:50 am
Post by: doll on June 01, 2017, 09:03:54 am
I can only really consider interaction with myself in the context of my understanding of that player's interpretation of my meta.I'll arbitrarily ignore most questions to me because there's no need for me to justify myself when I can just kill people who don't do what I want.Huh. Your call, but in my professional opinion ... get fucked, mate.
Broadly, this isn't a field I think I can yield good results from. I don't know where to start on Jack, I don't think I'll get much out of Tiruin or you that I can meaningfully interpret, and the culture of the players I've not played with before is mostly foreign to me.
TolyK, Shakerag
Do either of you think I should targeting certain (or many) players with my night abilities?
Post by: doll on June 01, 2017, 09:06:42 am
avoid targeting certain players
Post by: Persus13 on June 01, 2017, 09:23:34 am
Also its Persus (it really should be Perses, though), not Perseus.
Flabort:
Persus13My skills, which are a little out of practice, and my gut, which isn't the most reliable thing in the world. But with the power of teamwork, I should be able to bring down the mafia.
Long time no interact. What do you feel you'll be bringing to the scum-hunting table this time around?
Why did you FOS doll in this post instead of voting him? I'm getting a weird standoffish feel from you, and that's probably why.
There's basically three leads. Doll's crazy claim, Shakerag's miller claim, and Jack's theme claim. None of these were resulting from RVS questions, and all three are hard to confirm or deny - and further questioning about these claims won't be helpful, as like I said its very hard to confirm or deny anything these three say about their claims. It's just an unhelpful pile of WIFOM.If they're WIFOM, why do you call them leads? What do you mean by leads here? Because from where I'm sitting, none of those will lead to anything that's useful D1.
Lenglon:
Persus: you wanted a question. were you being given the offer Jack is, would you accept? under what circumstances would you change your answer?I'd definitely accept. If it wasn't ToyK, and was someone less experienced or someone I'm not as familiar with, I might be a little more hesitant. I like seeing gambits play out in Mafia games (unless I'm targeted by them), and I like the ability to have private conversations with people playing (I was fairly involved in PM conversations by the end of the last Paranormal, for instance).
How about you? I see you're asking a number of questions about that situation. Do you find it suspicious, or is it just something to talk about?
TheBiggerFish:
I don't really get onto a solid footing until the first lynch has panned out, generally, but I wouldn't say it's truly random once people are throwing coherent arguments around.This was the explanation for your behavior in the last Paranormal, where you were scum. You're still kind of flailing aimlessly in your posts for this game. What is your reaction to this?
That's not a dichotomous question. RVS can yield useful data, but I don't often know what to do with it.
Yes, I'm trying to do that.Why did you never follow up on this question and try to get something longer than a one line response?
flabort: Do you think pressure votes actually help?
...Pozzai/Tea back and forth sounds weird.So why not ask them about it? What's weird? This could have been so much more productive, but instead you decided to be lazy.
This post brought to you by "Mafia at 5 in the morning".
Tea:
It's not a particular vote that makes me uncomfortable. (And to be clear, what I meant by your vote being because of the wall was that I think by taking a wide net interactional approach, that made it more likely that you would vote me and talk to me about it. Although I do believe you that you were more likely to double up votes anyway based on your response.) I'm uncomfortable because I feel like the continual milking of reactions to this hella artificial thing diverts attention from things more likely to make the thread understand me and vice-versa.What's artificial about Jack A T's first post. This is pretty normal behavior for Jack and since he's engaging you in a long dialouge, it seems to have worked. Does it feel off i na scummy way, or in a "Im not used to this" kind of way?
...Even though you posted before the game was rolled here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164260.msg7470323#msg7470323), you weren't curious about flabort's reaction until after reading your role PM? Because I felt like that was really the meat of what you decided to include about your claim - using that pregame information as a jumping off point to create RVS information (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164260.msg7470722#msg7470722).What causes you to doubt his word here? More importantly, why does this matter at all if Jack had some preconceived ideas about what to ask people pre-game?
Way more people are focusing on these things than would be non-town in a standard game. The emphasis on asking specific formulaic questions to specific people en masse was something I struggled to get reads from in my only past game here that I didn't replace into. So yeah, I do have a bad attitude about bay12's early day1 meta which is probably coming off as snotty, or "naive" as you call it.Are the people non-town, or are the things non-town? Can you explain your first sentence quoted a bit more?
FallacyofUrist is, uh. Thinking about the game like someone who expects to be around for a long time, for whatever reason? Which is probably a better tell in a standard game than here but I don't quite follow why he's directing effort toward the things that he's directing them to, or why he thinks he's getting ~nothing out of Shakerag but isn't ranking Shakerag in a similar category to doll/TheBiggerFIsh.What's wrong with thinking long term? Why would FofU be expecting to die soon? More importantly, why does that make him scum as opposed to unprepared town? I understand you're suspicious of him for more reasons than that, but you put this one first, which implies its the most important.
TolyK:
... seriously?Why so defensive here?
- I am waiting on Jack to reply about the test thingie.
- I've poked some people about their replies to other people. Most notably, about doll's erratic behavior...
- Replied to accusations of being a cult leader, from FoU specifically.
and you're accusing me of trying to look like I'm participating while not doing anything? What exactly are you expecting to happen D1 less than a day after game start? :)
Well, this has suddenly gone downhill, hasn't it.How so?
Hector13:
Persus13Love you too.
I don't like you.Also, this game has hammers, so please be careful about bandwagons on people.
This is a part of why.
The rest of your post seems rather... wooden, like it's there just to be there.
Mostly I don't like you.
Do you really expect every player to read the rules for every game they play? I've modded games, and even when I've pointed out in the OP that players should read about this important rule, people still don't read the rules and become confused. As I stated to Jack, I've seen games where people hammered by accident, and it hurt, so getting it into people's heads that hammers are in play is something I want to do from the get go.
As for my wooden first post, its my first post of the game. I have to start with something, and I hate RVS questions, so that may be why it feels wooden.
Pozzai:
Doll:Do you find doll scummy or do you simply dislike his play?
Feels overly agro and demanding, dislike the entirety of their claim post, and their constant "don't bother with me go elsewhere to interact" posting bugs me.
I feel like the majority of what has been said, including everything I've said, is NAI. No one is drilling into people's opinions, because there's next to none, no pressure is added, and this feel like at some point during the day someone will throw out a name, everyone will go "well, I don't have anything better so lets go" and a random person will be lynched by that.NAI? Also, don't make the mistake of judging where a game will go based on the first half of D1. D2 or D3 is when these things usually hit their stride.
4 reads, yes. Have any changed? Doll has a point about you.Pozzai:If you have reads, share them.
Already did >_>
Spoiler: Less serious (4maskwolf,doll, shakerag) (click to show/hide)
Post by: TolyK on June 01, 2017, 09:36:33 am
I'm not sure why you're asking me, to be honest. Or Shakerag. :P
I'd prefer you not shoot Jack or me, since that would mean I can't really do my experiment (or it will at least delay it).
I don't know much about anyone else ATM, so... I don't really care too much? I have some reads, but nothing terribly concrete, so if you're looking for advice on that front I can't exactly give it to you.
I feel that losing 3-4 players on Night 1 would be a pretty big deal, so I'm uncertain whether you should do it in the first place. However, if you are inclined on doing it, you should probably choose by yourself who you think is scummy, rather than go asking for opinions...
PPE:
If it wasn't ToyK, and was someone less experienced or someone I'm not as familiar with, I might be a little more hesitant.<3
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TolyK:I believed that I was under unfair criticism, and thus recapped what I've been doing. The point was to show later, if needed, that my accuser was grasping at straws.... seriously?Why so defensive here?
- I am waiting on Jack to reply about the test thingie.
- I've poked some people about their replies to other people. Most notably, about doll's erratic behavior...
- Replied to accusations of being a cult leader, from FoU specifically.
and you're accusing me of trying to look like I'm participating while not doing anything? What exactly are you expecting to happen D1 less than a day after game start? :)
In retrospect, though, that's what RVS and post-RVS D1 is... grasping at straws to find a weak spot...
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Mostly in terms of doll's "I'm gonna go nova on y'all tonight", slightly rising disrespect between players (though it's obviously in a humorous form :P), and too many streams-of-consciousness that need to be sifted through.Well, this has suddenly gone downhill, hasn't it.How so?
Post by: Shakerag on June 01, 2017, 09:45:31 am
TolyK, ShakeragThat's pretty impossible to say on D1, unless someone has used some sort of day ability.
Do either of you think I should targeting certain (or many) players with my night abilities?
Personally, if I was going to blaze of glory it up, I'd kill anyone who's a strong player (not the fun option, but the logical one), or who I would have a difficult time getting a read on. Hard to say at this point who should get a beneficial ability though.
Post by: Shakerag on June 01, 2017, 09:49:01 am
Mostly in terms of doll's "I'm gonna go nova on y'all tonight", slightly rising disrespect between players (though it's obviously in a humorous form :P), and too many streams-of-consciousness that need to be sifted through.Hey hey hey. What happens in mafia stays in mafia. Although I am not above holding a grudge between games (Still waiting on the right time/game/roll to fuck flabort on D1).
Post by: Shakerag on June 01, 2017, 10:21:13 am
I claimed that I don't exactly have an inspection ability. :PI asked you why you claimed what you did, you shitlord. Honestly.
Tea:
Well, there's likely not going to be in-game events on D1, and statements are pretty much RVS shitposting. So what exactly is it you're looking for?Tea: So what, in your opinion, is the ideal D1 play?I have an easier time forming reads in an environment with:
Fewer hypotheticals - conversation is very much focused on actual in-game events and statements.
More of a conversational flow in general - greater transparency about one's thoughts, more of people's choices of what to talk about self-determined as opposed to prompted by others
I do not have much of an opinion on "collective reads," Flabort. Definite potential for being presumptive, but I'm more nihilism-prone lately than is practical, I think.
FallacyofUrist:
So, out of curiosity, what would you say the odds are of someone like me letting slip that I'm scum due to my reactions to questions on D1?Ah yes this is typical of Shakerag.[1]: Am I? Is that typical of the entirety or majority of my behavior? But if you want to know why I asked Shakerag those questions... I was probing for reactions. Like usual. Shakerag isn't giving me much to work with, though.He's town guys, no worries.I definitely think you should read #4, it's funny as shit, but yes he is clearly shitposting. [1] Fallacy why are you shit posting?
Tiruin:
Please treat me as a magnet./me sticks Tiruin on his fridge.
I have no inspection powers unless I know the person's role name. :v So that's an auxiliary action for funsies.Well I like you too, Tir.
Unvote, Shakerag.
You are very forthcoming. I like you.
But can you explain what an sk-miller IS?! Do you wanna KEEL ME!? I know you do! O_O
In all seriousness: I choose to not believe you on that bit; you can lie about your role and such, and it's a bit touchy-sensitive-y to denote 'I made my role bluh-y so this is my claim because of it'
Why are you claiming SK-Miller when both results are anti-town anyway?
(Also if I ever die, can my death flavor include cake?)
SK-Miller: I inspect as an SK. Seems pretty straightforward? O_o
Of course I want to kill you. It's the best way to get a read on your alignment.
Alright, well, believe what you want. I'm claiming (SK-)Miller because I agree with Toaster's analysis from a long while ago that it is optimal play to claim miller (if you are one) in your first post.
I can't control your death flavor, sorry.
Also, how excited are you about your role?
doll:
weaboo shitUgh.
But what if I am lazy in terms of reading extra effects ! I tend to phase in and out of threads of games I'm in while doing work or other things... Having to read other threads outside the game thread means I'll be distracted !Pozzai is lazy and distracted easily. Noted.
Post by: TolyK on June 01, 2017, 10:29:28 am
Tolyk:1. I claimed that I don't have an inspection ability. To spell that out for you, I do not have a direct inspection ability. I can confirm/inspect other people through other means, but no direct inspection.I claimed that I don't exactly have an inspection ability. :PI asked you why you claimed what you did, you shitlord. Honestly.
2. Go home you're drunk. Or, since you're already probably home, ...
...
I don't know? :P
Post by: Shakerag on June 01, 2017, 10:36:38 am
WHY did you claim that you don't have a "direct inspection ability"?Tolyk:1. I claimed that I don't have an inspection ability. To spell that out for you, I do not have a direct inspection ability. I can confirm/inspect other people through other means, but no direct inspection.I claimed that I don't exactly have an inspection ability. :PI asked you why you claimed what you did, you shitlord. Honestly.
2. Go home you're drunk. Or, since you're already probably home, ...
...
I don't know? :P
As in, what were your reasons?
As in, what motivation did you have to claim that?
As in, what did you hope to gain by claiming that?
As in, do you need a dictionary definition of what the word "why" means?
Post by: TolyK on June 01, 2017, 10:47:06 am
Alright, alright, I got it.
My reasoning was to claim a part of my role. The reason w** I did that? To form a bit of trust, mostly to slightly increase the likelyhood that Jack would accept. I intend to give more information to Jack personally, as part of the experiment thingie. Other than this, I'm not currently giving out more information. Take what you will.
Post by: Lenglon on June 01, 2017, 10:51:31 am
Tolyk: now that web has resolved your action, can you explain why you aren't actually voting me just yet? or do you need some follow-up in the chat itself first?
Tolyk: Are you sure that your role is low-power, or do you think youre missing a key component or force multiplier that is in someone else's role rather than your own?
Tiruin: Heyo! That was quite an entrance! It seems like theres a push going against FoU for active-lurking, but all day not a single person has addressed you with a single question despite you making only that single solitary entrance-post. Theres nobody with a read of you and yet nobody with an interest in questioning you... what do you think about that?
Shakerag: Time to address the elephant in the room. You always submit a role that is disruptive to the game. Do you think your current one is going to be a major player or a minor player in how the game works out?
Post by: Lenglon on June 01, 2017, 11:02:05 am
Pozzai and Tea: Please call me "she" instead of "he", thanks.
Post by: TolyK on June 01, 2017, 11:18:20 am
Tolyk: now that web has resolved your action, can you explain why you aren't actually voting me just yet? or do you need some follow-up in the chat itself first?Jack hasn't been on. I might not even vote you, eventually. It was a pressure "vote", after all. It really depends on your actions during this day.
Tolyk: Are you sure that your role is low-power, or do you think youre missing a key component or force multiplier that is in someone else's role rather than your own?
I'm pretty sure that on my own I'm low-power, however my goal is to see if I can break things in combination with others.
Post by: Shakerag on June 01, 2017, 11:31:28 am
Shakerag: Time to address the elephant in the room. You always submit a role that is disruptive to the game. Do you think your current one is going to be a major player or a minor player in how the game works out?Are you calling me fat, you weightist?
Well, typically my roles (off the top of my head) either tend to be disruptive to everyone or just detrimental to me. Like in BYOR 10 (I think) I fucked with the voting system all game. This game is ... a little different, but more on the detrimental to me side. I'm not going to say much right now, but more toward the end of the day I think I'll give out a bit more info.
Post by: TheDarkStar on June 01, 2017, 12:12:02 pm
As for other people, I have a few vague feelings but no clear evidence yet (note: these reads are from reading through the last ~5 pages because lots of the pages before that are pure RVS):
Something about Persus and flabort interactions seem odd. Basically, Persus voted for flabort in a post where it looked like Persus had a much stronger case on TBF and TolyK.
Tiruin and Shakerag's play so far matches how they've historically played town (especially Tiruin).
TBF is harder to read as usual. He doesn't have much in the way of content, though.
I haven't played with Tea in a while, so I'll save a read of him until I do a thorough read-through of each player's posts.
I haven't played with Pozzai at all until now and I just get a vague "new to Bay12 mafia but not mafia in general" read from him (which is pretty unsurprising).
As other people have noted for Fallacy, he seems to focus a lot on game mechanics and not much on scumhunting.
flabort has said surprisingly little. He has posts, yes, but there's no content. Active-lurking?
...and most of the other posts are fairly RVS-y. There are several players that haven't had a chance to post on some of the most recent events in this game and so I have almost no read at all on them, but we've just started this game and they'll post later.
Post by: Persus13 on June 01, 2017, 12:24:59 pm
Perseus: I dont see it as scummy to do, for me the second part of my question was by far the more interesting part. Why would you be more suspicious if the same offer with the same lack of information came from a weaker playerI wouldn't necessarily be suspicious, I'd just be less interested. If its a weaker player, whatever they're trying to pull off would be less interesting, less fun, and more likely to backfire.
Something about Persus and flabort interactions seem odd. Basically, Persus voted for flabort in a post where it looked like Persus had a much stronger case on TBF and TolyK.I was wondering if someone would comment on this. I was thinking about voting TBF, but then decided he had enough pressure on him at the moment from flabort and Tiruin. If I wasn't voting flabort I'd be voting TBF. Why does it look like I have a much stronger case on TolyK? He answered my defensive question pretty well.
Post by: TheBiggerFish on June 01, 2017, 12:34:21 pm
@Persus's second-most-recent post:More like "I decided to go to sleep". I was actually about to follow up today, and then I saw your posts.
Pozzai: Explain why you are buddying Tea.
Post by: origamiscienceguy on June 01, 2017, 01:22:55 pm
Post by: origamiscienceguy on June 01, 2017, 01:45:45 pm
origamiscienceguy: how do i rvsThere is no "right way" to RVS in my opinion. Whatever gets people to talk about the game is good. There are several "wrong ways" to RVS in my opinion. Asking questions that don't relate to the game in any way, voting for a person without any explanation, or just not participating in it at all (oops)
OSG: you are town with a 1-shot daykill and no forms of inspection. when do you use it?Friday afternoon at around 7:15
Actually, I save it until it seems I'm going to be lynched, then use it on my top scumpick. I then tell everybody it was me "That was me" Even if I hit town.
OSG: I know I've played with you before, but I can't remember when. How would you evaluate your Mafia experience.We played in Operation Overlord, and you played in the game I ran as well. So far, my experience has been pretty polar, either I'm playing well, or I'm playing like shit, getting modkilled for pretending to be a german.
origamiscienceguyanybody but me
You're a mildly active, semi-competant mafia player.
That usually makes you real easy to read, and so not a real threat nor a real liability.
Who should I kill tonight and why?
Other than that, I don't know. I haven't read people yet. I'll get back to you on that.
OragamiScienceTo me, none of it is emotional. I don't put any emotion into my game. I put a lot of critical thinking into it though. And it is always all BS. None of what you critically thunk is ever correct, especially in a closed, chaotic game like this.
How much of Mafia is emotional, how much is critical thinking, and how much is BS?
Post by: hector13 on June 01, 2017, 02:33:18 pm
Post by: Pozzai on June 01, 2017, 03:19:42 pm
4 reads, yes. Have any changed? Doll has a point about you.Pozzai:If you have reads, share them.
Already did >_>
What exactly is Doll's point about me? Why don't YOU expand on it?
4 reads is still more than most people in the game has given, why is it an issue I 'only' gave 4, why is it not more important that multiple people have given (next to) none?
And no, nothing major has changed in regards to this.
What do you think of fish asking for my reads, being told I had given some and has proceeded to do 0 with the information? No confrontation or discussion at all about the reads he was so interested in me giving?
Post by: Pozzai on June 01, 2017, 03:20:45 pm
Doll: you still dont want anything from me? but Im so willing to bow to your will oh mighty overlord! please! issue me a command you holiness!
Pozzai and Tea: Please call me "she" instead of "he", thanks.
Ah did a pronoun slip by, I usually write gender neutral till I know better. Will try to remember in future ;)
Post by: Pozzai on June 01, 2017, 03:23:17 pm
Pozzai: Explain why you are buddying Tea.
Why do you think/where do you see me buddying her?
If that was the case, why was your first reaction not to call me out for that, instead of saying "Tea and Pozzai interaction is weird"?
Why isn't Tea's opinion on the subject of interest to you, as she a) was involved in the discussion(at least presumably) and b) is the only one who knows me in this game?
What did you get from my reads, why was it important to you that I give any if you're not going to be interacting with me about those?
Post by: Pozzai on June 01, 2017, 03:27:47 pm
You're pozzaitively up for a kill, Pozzai-chan.
bakuhatsu shiro, sou desu yone?
And yes, I'm the class bully. Tiruin is usually the class rep.
Unfortunately for you, I'm the one with the gun.
And unfortunately for you I care [] about your threats, either do it or get on with actually doing pro-town stuff. I am happy you go to the place that I am "bad" as opposed to "scum" it tends to show a certain bias towards knowing my alignment, so tip of the hat to you for that.
Post by: flabort on June 01, 2017, 03:37:38 pm
.........TiruinWell my laptop is on a table, and I'm sitting on a chair with my back straight (dun wanna develop bad spinal posture now do we?), and whenever I see doll, my cognitive mechanisms recall a particular other person who was as particular and knowledgeable as him--my best friend called Vector. So physically, I inhale and exhale and nod, because I see 'doll', and I recall 'Vector' and other nice friends, and I feel relaxed and excited. Because in knowing Doll for quite a while, I have become familiar with them--their playstyle is a whole different story, but otherwise, he is just like Toaster and Jim Groovester to me; an ol' mentor-person that I look up to.
Each time Doll makes a post, how do you physically react? Does anyone else give you a similar feeling? Does anyone give you a worse feeling?
And that goes for literally everyone else that I become familiarized with, because out of game, we're all good buddies over time or at least over information. In-game, I physically scan my laptop screen and see everyone's posts as they are. I focus on the content, not feeling anything at all different from person to person. All my actions and nature towards others are moreso to this content, however my emotional reaction also biases me, like how I see Lenglon as a buddy-who-may-be-Town, but she was also Scum back in previous games. But in general I feel relaxed and excited.
WHY ARE YOU SCOPIN' OUT MY BUDDY, FLABORT?! WHY ONLY HIM!?
I MISSED YOU TOO!
In all seriousness: Why is your only question to me about Doll? Do you have a particular interest in him?
And did you leave me open to answer about anyone else? {Lenglon, Jack, you, Doll, and others I've grown close to or familiar and comfortable with are those I'm relaxed and excited with; the rest are the same too--newbies have a curious and excited reaction}
OK....
My brain was not prepared for this yet. I mean, it's afternoon already but I slept in very, very late today. And I had forgotten that you are basically the goddess of making friends.
My only question to you is about doll because I couldn't think of anything else fitting at the time - my capacity for high-level questioning is low at the start of a game. Sure, you're absolutely free to answer about anyone else you want to.
Flabort:1) A) Because doll might be a jester B) Because I don't want to get too involved in the game lest my addiction take back over C) It was my first post of the game, I usually reserve my vote for later after I've had a chance for some back-and-forth.Persus13My skills, which are a little out of practice, and my gut, which isn't the most reliable thing in the world. But with the power of teamwork, I should be able to bring down the mafia.
Long time no interact. What do you feel you'll be bringing to the scum-hunting table this time around?
Why did you FOS doll in this post instead of voting him? I'm getting a weird standoffish feel from you, and that's probably why.There's basically three leads. Doll's crazy claim, Shakerag's miller claim, and Jack's theme claim. None of these were resulting from RVS questions, and all three are hard to confirm or deny - and further questioning about these claims won't be helpful, as like I said its very hard to confirm or deny anything these three say about their claims. It's just an unhelpful pile of WIFOM.If they're WIFOM, why do you call them leads? What do you mean by leads here? Because from where I'm sitting, none of those will lead to anything that's useful D1.
2) I call them leads because it was the only moderately useful conversation topic that existed so far. Leads refers to anything that can spark conversation and lead to somebody voting over the topic of conversation. And they were unhelpful leads to me because I can't pull any useful evidence out of the WIFOM that they produce. However, they still produced some conversation which lead to other conversation producing more leads to follow, even if some of these leads are still tangled in WIFOM.
Post by: Pozzai on June 01, 2017, 03:39:22 pm
FallacyofUrist is, uh. Thinking about the game like someone who expects to be around for a long time, for whatever reason? Which is probably a better tell in a standard game than here but I don't quite follow why he's directing effort toward the things that he's directing them to, or why he thinks he's getting ~nothing out of Shakerag but isn't ranking Shakerag in a similar category to doll/TheBiggerFIsh. He's doing lots of theory talk about scumtells that seem fairly divorced from what people are doing in the game itself, lots of ~I'll look into getting actual reads later~, lots of Here's What I'll Care About on Day 2. I didn't like his reaction to being asked why he was shitposting - sounded to me like ~I'm Self-Aware of What I Usually Do And I'm Telling You About It Even Though It Wasn't Asked Of Me~ (x (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164260.msg7471314#msg7471314)).
I can see where you're coming from with most of those things, not sure I agree with it finalising my read as strong a scumlean as you seem to get from it, but can you walk me through the bolded part?
Post by: doll on June 01, 2017, 03:39:44 pm
Getting killed on purpose really doesn't serve your team's objectives.
It also blows a kill I could use on someone else.
Shakes & TolyK
I was more asking about the unblockability and extra action night powers, which at present I intend to apply indiscriminantly.
I asked because you were they and unlike persus had already posted (so were maybe less likely to be caught in something already).
I've somehow failed to mention, or to, it appears, consider the following fact:
When I revive a player I used one of the kills on, they become a vanilla (whatever their alignment was).
Post by: TheBiggerFish on June 01, 2017, 03:44:32 pm
The bit last night where I said the interaction was weird.Pozzai: Explain why you are buddying Tea.
Why do you think/where do you see me buddying her?
If that was the case, why was your first reaction not to call me out for that, instead of saying "Tea and Pozzai interaction is weird"?
Why isn't Tea's opinion on the subject of interest to you, as she a) was involved in the discussion(at least presumably) and b) is the only one who knows me in this game?
What did you get from my reads, why was it important to you that I give any if you're not going to be interacting with me about those?
Because it was 5 in the morning and that was the extent of my coherent thoughts on the subject.
Tea doesn't appear to be buddying you. You appear to be buddying Tea.
What did I get from your reads? Nothing, because I don't even know where they are. Put 'em up.
Pozzai: Stop buddying Tea, geez.
Post by: Pozzai on June 01, 2017, 03:44:38 pm
Pozzai-chan
Getting killed on purpose really doesn't serve your team's objectives.
It also blows a kill I could use on someone else.
Nor does removing interactions with about you, but you did it anyways, and I'm not getting killed on purpose, I'm merely saying the things you pointed out about me are so mindnumblingly pulled in a scum direction instead of looking at it as a whole, that I quite frankly cba interacting with you because you adress it from an angle where you've already made up you mind, so why bother.
You also say I'm bad, because I'm not easy to read. This should surely mean you have reads on everyone else in the game right, because we can't all be bad.
Your attacks are weak, biased and if you're town you're stuck in a tunnel I have no interest dealing with, so I'd rather just deal around it.
Post by: Pozzai on June 01, 2017, 03:46:14 pm
Pozzai: Stop buddying Tea, geez.
Still not answering the part WHERE I am buddying Tea, why don't you point out specific elements and tell me/the thread why that specific area is a buddy attempt?
Also, ISO me for the reads, they're there for your availability.
Post by: flabort on June 01, 2017, 03:50:16 pm
Speaking of which, TBF, Here are Pozzai's reads (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164260.msg7471134#msg7471134), what little of them exist.
http://acronyms.thefreedictionary.com/ISO
Also, ISO me for the reads, they're there for your availability.
I have no clue what you are trying to say here.
Post by: doll on June 01, 2017, 03:51:33 pm
I made distinct reference to your town reads, which you strongly implied to had developed (since you hadn't at the time you posted the 4 reads earlier, unless you really were just referring to TBF which seems unlikely based on more recent context).
I don't need you to shoot after me with a case because the best your case will end in is 'oh yeah but doll's basically going to confirm that they are non-town if they are still around D2 so we may as well wait' and like I said, interactional analysis is useless imo.
Your reads aren't there.
You've posted a few reads (the famous 4, a stray comment in relation to another players analysis, etc.) but it clearly isn't the full extent of what you've seen.
I'll post a full reads list when I get time (which is like ~15 hours) to show you what I mean and what I'm hoping you can produce for me.
My attacks are weak because I'm pressuring you.
I want you to understand that, for all intents and purposes, you have 15 votes riding on you, and they won't move until you satisfy my criteria for town.
Post by: Pozzai on June 01, 2017, 03:52:09 pm
http://acronyms.thefreedictionary.com/ISO
Also, ISO me for the reads, they're there for your availability.
I have no clue what you are trying to say here.
ISO is short for isolate, when you isolate a person's post to read them.
Post by: doll on June 01, 2017, 03:52:23 pm
The above is addressed to Pozzai-chan
Post by: flabort on June 01, 2017, 03:55:13 pm
I want you to understand that, for all intents and purposes, you have 15 votes riding on you, and they won't move until you satisfy my criteria for town.Just curious, where is this number coming from?
Post by: doll on June 01, 2017, 03:56:55 pm
My apologies, it's 17 votes.
Post by: TheBiggerFish on June 01, 2017, 04:00:11 pm
Pozzai: Stop buddying Tea, geez.
Still not answering the part WHERE I am buddying Tea, why don't you point out specific elements and tell me/the thread why that specific area is a buddy attempt?
Also, ISO me for the reads, they're there for your availability.
This. That, and your earlier exchange that I commented on.FallacyofUrist is, uh. Thinking about the game like someone who expects to be around for a long time, for whatever reason? Which is probably a better tell in a standard game than here but I don't quite follow why he's directing effort toward the things that he's directing them to, or why he thinks he's getting ~nothing out of Shakerag but isn't ranking Shakerag in a similar category to doll/TheBiggerFIsh. He's doing lots of theory talk about scumtells that seem fairly divorced from what people are doing in the game itself, lots of ~I'll look into getting actual reads later~, lots of Here's What I'll Care About on Day 2. I didn't like his reaction to being asked why he was shitposting - sounded to me like ~I'm Self-Aware of What I Usually Do And I'm Telling You About It Even Though It Wasn't Asked Of Me~ (x (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164260.msg7471314#msg7471314)).
I can see where you're coming from with most of those things, not sure I agree with it finalising my read as strong a scumlean as you seem to get from it, but can you walk me through the bolded part?
Post by: Pozzai on June 01, 2017, 04:02:53 pm
I've asked you specifically to post your reads.
I made distinct reference to your town reads, which you strongly implied to had developed (since you hadn't at the time you posted the 4 reads earlier, unless you really were just referring to TBF which seems unlikely based on more recent context).
I don't need you to shoot after me with a case because the best your case will end in is 'oh yeah but doll's basically going to confirm that they are non-town if they are still around D2 so we may as well wait' and like I said, interactional analysis is useless imo.
Your reads aren't there.
You've posted a few reads (the famous 4, a stray comment in relation to another players analysis, etc.) but it clearly isn't the full extent of what you've seen.
I'll post a full reads list when I get time (which is like ~15 hours) to show you what I mean and what I'm hoping you can produce for me.
My attacks are weak because I'm pressuring you.
I want you to understand that, for all intents and purposes, you have 15 votes riding on you, and they won't move until you satisfy my criteria for town.
Except you either take things out of context or misrepresent them.
There's a huge difference between setting things up for interactions and not being willing to guide people through them to get answers, and wanting them to unfold naturally.
And.
Discussing reads.
I am not interesting in telling people "this is what I want from this thing I've done"
Also the initial comment you made about me not being consequent with my opinions, in regards to what I want in terms of interacting with people.
The comment to tea was not an issue I had with her being interested in discussing reads, it's that she went to the extent she did to nitpick small things extremely early in the game. Nitpickery is what scum tends to do.
I followed this up with a few more questions later, the last one being how her day had been. I considered her tone very off, she's usually fluffier in demeanor, you can usually feel some kind of fun coming from her, which in this game has been absent. I considered it potentially being that she had a crappy day and that could be the issue.
Her response was "good day, crumpy/tired" which I consider a genuine answer, because if she knew what I was fishing for she'd just write "lousy day, don't ask".
She was also my "something something will disclosure later" read in my reads list, because I wanted to see if her tone changed the next day, which it didn't, and which finally let me to the "did you plan any gimmicks" question.
I kind of hoped people would actively show interest in the "will disclosure later" part on their own though, to seem interested, but no one did.
Just because I don't blabber out anything I have in mind all the time, doesn't mean I don't consider stuff, and no, I wont give a full reads list, I never do, I'll give stuff when I feel it's important or I have drained enough information from it that I feel like I can't get any more, which would be glaringly obvious if you had asked for any prior games to look at.
I play some of my cards close to the chest, because it's the best way to catch people unprepared.
Post by: Pozzai on June 01, 2017, 04:03:49 pm
Pozzai: Stop buddying Tea, geez.
Still not answering the part WHERE I am buddying Tea, why don't you point out specific elements and tell me/the thread why that specific area is a buddy attempt?
Also, ISO me for the reads, they're there for your availability.This. That, and your earlier exchange that I commented on.FallacyofUrist is, uh. Thinking about the game like someone who expects to be around for a long time, for whatever reason? Which is probably a better tell in a standard game than here but I don't quite follow why he's directing effort toward the things that he's directing them to, or why he thinks he's getting ~nothing out of Shakerag but isn't ranking Shakerag in a similar category to doll/TheBiggerFIsh. He's doing lots of theory talk about scumtells that seem fairly divorced from what people are doing in the game itself, lots of ~I'll look into getting actual reads later~, lots of Here's What I'll Care About on Day 2. I didn't like his reaction to being asked why he was shitposting - sounded to me like ~I'm Self-Aware of What I Usually Do And I'm Telling You About It Even Though It Wasn't Asked Of Me~ (x (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164260.msg7471314#msg7471314)).
I can see where you're coming from with most of those things, not sure I agree with it finalising my read as strong a scumlean as you seem to get from it, but can you walk me through the bolded part?
You didn't point anything specific out though, all you do is "hey here's a whole sentence, somewhere in there I see a buddy attempt but I wont narrow it down" >_>
Post by: TheBiggerFish on June 01, 2017, 04:08:43 pm
You've latched on to Tea like a limpet.
Also, who said we wanted you to reveal how you do reads? We just want your reads, whatever they are. And not Tea's reads but fluffed a little.
Post by: doll on June 01, 2017, 04:10:33 pm
Just because I don't blabber out anything I have in mind all the time, doesn't mean I don't consider stuff, and no, I wont give a full reads list, I never do, I'll give stuff when I feel it's important or I have drained enough information from it that I feel like I can't get any more, which would be glaringly obvious if you had asked for any prior games to look at.Ah, but I did notice and accept that.
See, I realized that, as you said, you weren't new and that what was going on did have some meaning to you.
Your failure to elaborate on that meaning, or to leave it open to scrutiny (and also, therefore, further elaboration or the formation in meaning in relation to yourself) is why I said that you are bad.
See, I need content to analyze in order to make a strong case.
If someone doesn't have enough content, I can ask them questions or ask them to produce content, and reinforce my requests with pressure.
The happier I am with lynching someone as the situation stands, the less I specify what content I want them to produce.
I'm not asking you specific questions because, broadly speaking, I'm pretty happy with lynching you.
Posting a full reads list demonstrates engagement with the game and leaves you open to scrutiny.
Legitimate interest and engagement in the daygame is the top towntell.
TBF
Pretty sure I said how I want his reads
If I kill Pozzai N1, who are you going to have content to pursue going into D2?
Post by: Pozzai on June 01, 2017, 04:11:12 pm
There's only one sentence in that post I called out.
You've latched on to Tea like a limpet.
Also, who said we wanted you to reveal how you do reads? We just want your reads, whatever they are. And not Tea's reads but fluffed a little.
Yes but what particulary do you think is buddying in that(and prior) sentences, the fact I talk to her? The fact I engage her around her reads(which I actually skipped at first till she asked me about my opinion on them) ?
Where does the line of interacting/discussing reads go for you? What changes discussion into buddying?
Post by: Pozzai on June 01, 2017, 04:13:17 pm
Just because I don't blabber out anything I have in mind all the time, doesn't mean I don't consider stuff, and no, I wont give a full reads list, I never do, I'll give stuff when I feel it's important or I have drained enough information from it that I feel like I can't get any more, which would be glaringly obvious if you had asked for any prior games to look at.Ah, but I did notice and accept that.
See, I realized that, as you said, you weren't new and that what was going on did have some meaning to you.
Your failure to elaborate on that meaning, or to leave it open to scrutiny (and also, therefore, further elaboration or the formation in meaning in relation to yourself) is why I said that you are bad.
See, I need content to analyze in order to make a strong case.
If someone doesn't have enough content, I can ask them questions or ask them to produce content, and reinforce my requests with pressure.
The happier I am with lynching someone as the situation stands, the less I specify what content I want them to produce.
I'm not asking you specific questions because, broadly speaking, I'm pretty happy with lynching you.
Posting a full reads list demonstrates engagement with the game and leaves you open to scrutiny.
Legitimate interest and engagement in the daygame is the top towntell.
TBF
Pretty sure I said how I want his reads
If I kill Pozzai N1, who are you going to have content to pursue going into D2?
Posting a full readslist shows you want to seem active, as you can't possibly have anything remotely strong in terms of opinions on anyone.
It's way better to fixate on the stronger reads and make sure you let people know those than adding a bunch of sleb into a pile "just because"
Post by: Lenglon on June 01, 2017, 04:16:25 pm
PPE: ah, so you never post a full reads list, and were intentionally wasting the entire towns time and energy telling us you already had and to trawl through the entire game over and over to try to find them. Thanks for telling us your alignment directly Pozzai. good talk. and here I thought youd be hard to read since youd need leeway for being new to the forum. But when you tell us youre playing anti-town... well, that makes things easy.
Post by: Pozzai on June 01, 2017, 04:16:37 pm
Unvote I feel TBF has fulfilled what I was pressuring him into.
Is that an actual townread, or just a "well at least they entered the game"?
If the latter why not place your vote on a new spot you want to pressure?
If the first, can you walk me through that townread?
Post by: TolyK on June 01, 2017, 04:17:59 pm
I really should reread the case against Pozzai, though. It seems important. :P
Post by: Pozzai on June 01, 2017, 04:18:58 pm
Pozzai, please be aware that 80% of TBF's posts and 100% of mine (at least until the 16th-ish) are made via phone. LurkerTracker is our primary ISO tool on Bay12 and it doesn't function well via phone. Also, it is obnoxious to respond to "You havent posted X" with "Yes I have, sometime, somewhere, go re-read the entire game to try to find it!" And doing so will rightfully draw fire for evasion.
While that may be true, the opposite is equally evasive and non-committal. Why not just either a) "I'm on phone, care to link me" or b) use the ~12hours to either find it or ask about it?
The way they demand me to post it, as opposed to asking for it, and the fact they showed 0 interest in actually finding the stuff outside me prompting them about it should ring huge warning bells to anyone >_>
Post by: Pozzai on June 01, 2017, 04:20:56 pm
PPE: ah, so you never post a full reads list, and were intentionally wasting the entire towns time and energy telling us you already had and to trawl through the entire game over and over to try to find them. Thanks for telling us your alignment directly Pozzai. good talk. and here I thought youd be hard to read since youd need leeway for being new to the forum. But when you tell us youre playing anti-town... well, that makes things easy.
Why does that tell me my alignment directly?
I'm saying I never, and have never with 1 very specific addendum, have posted a full readslist as town. I think I might once as scum, not 100% sure.
So at best this should tell you that I play differently than you, but never my alignment.
Post by: Pozzai on June 01, 2017, 04:21:44 pm
PPE: ah, so you never post a full reads list, and were intentionally wasting the entire towns time and energy telling us you already had and to trawl through the entire game over and over to try to find them. Thanks for telling us your alignment directly Pozzai. good talk. and here I thought youd be hard to read since youd need leeway for being new to the forum. But when you tell us youre playing anti-town... well, that makes things easy.
Why does that tell me my alignment directly?
I'm saying I never, and have never with 1 very specific addendum, have posted a full readslist as town. I think I might once as scum, not 100% sure.
So at best this should tell you that I play differently than you, but never my alignment.
Also, I was never prior to today asked for a full readslist, nor did I ever say I had provided one. >_>
Post by: doll on June 01, 2017, 04:22:08 pm
Posting a full reads list shows you've analyzed at least some of every players content, or are pretending you have and may be able to be called out for such.
It also acts as an inducement to re-read key content in the thread, which is why on B12 telling inactive or weak players to post reads lists is very common. There's often a big ritualized posting of reads lists early D2 or occasionally late D1 when players look back through the thread for leads when there are none obvious to pursue or in response to other players posting reads lists which prompts players to re-examine content which appears to be influencing a conclusion they hadn't yet considered.
TolyK
I don't really have a strong case against Pozzai yet, but they aren't really giving me content when under pressure so it's getting stronger by the minute.
Pozzai
No, they fact that you don't have anything to find should ring huge warning bells.
Asking other players to find what you mean when they don't interpret it the same way is pretentious and rude.
Not everyone has ~12hours to trawl the thread to find out that you meant you posted empty reads on a quarter of the players in the game and were talking about that like it was deep and meaningful content.
If you've got ~12hours, spend that time posting something to get pressure off of yourself.
Post by: TheBiggerFish on June 01, 2017, 04:26:59 pm
If you somehow survive or something, which would be weird.
I might need to reread D1 to find content on D2, depending on what comes up.
@doll again: He's not giving his reads because he doesn't want to give his methods. You want his reads, not his methods, right?
Geez, 9 new replies? Right...gonna go read those now.
Post by: Lenglon on June 01, 2017, 04:27:21 pm
PPE - ill repond to you in a sec pozzai
Post by: Pozzai on June 01, 2017, 04:27:59 pm
Pozzai
No, they fact that you don't have anything to find should ring huge warning bells.
Asking other players to find what you mean when they don't interpret it the same way is pretentious and rude.
Not everyone has ~12hours to trawl the thread to find out that you meant you posted empty reads on a quarter of the players in the game and were talking about that like it was deep and meaningful content.
If you've got ~12hours, spend that time posting something to get pressure off of yourself.
You got to be shitting me. Them demanding stuff I already have posted shows they're not actually reading through stuff or taking it in.
I told them it exists, go and find it if it's interesting, they somehow didn't consider that interesting.
Again, I answered them in terms of what they gave, had they asked "do you have any reads, I'd have pointed out where they were, demand shit, and you'll get responded to in equal.
Their constant avoidance to actually give specifics as to where 'buddying' exists, their lack in interest in how the other person in the exchanges thought the exchange felt means he's just latching onto what's cool and popular.
They also asked me to go read up on other games, but have had no interest in reading up on mine or Tea's and used it to throw shade in my direction.
You're just so blinded by your abysmal tunnel/the misslynch/shot you can take that you're unwilling to look for outside possibilities.
Post by: TheBiggerFish on June 01, 2017, 04:28:21 pm
Post by: TolyK on June 01, 2017, 04:31:11 pm
I was referring more to the cumulative case.
As of yet, I've only been through the thread once (no rereading), so I haven't accumulated much long-term info about every player.
PPE: Holy shit that's a lot of times I've been pre-posted...
Post by: Lenglon on June 01, 2017, 04:34:42 pm
Post by: Pozzai on June 01, 2017, 04:37:25 pm
Pozzai - I view your evasive statement to go look for something that isnt actually there to find as directly anti-town, because youre wasting the rntire towns time and energy. Im working 14-hour shifts every day including holidays and weekends right now, and im posting entirely via phone, with about 1 bar of signal and my data cutting in and out. I do NOT have the ability to deal with that kind of evasive time-wasting.
So if you had missed my reads and were interested, you'd surely be like:
GIVE ME YOUR READS NOW
And I should comply?
Or would you mayhaps ask "so I haven't seen you give any reads, do you have any?"
If people demand stuff of me, I'll demand they go find it themself, if they ask nicely, I'll nicely tell them where to find it.
Post by: TheBiggerFish on June 01, 2017, 04:38:47 pm
Post by: Lenglon on June 01, 2017, 04:41:22 pm
You are mistaken.
Post by: Pozzai on June 01, 2017, 04:42:49 pm
@Lenglon what do you think of TBF's issue with me buddying Tea, agree/disagree?
What do you think of their evasiveness to get down and gritty with the exact things they consider buddying outside a whole paragraph?
Post by: Lenglon on June 01, 2017, 04:44:11 pm
PPE posting now, tesponding to that next.
Post by: Lenglon on June 01, 2017, 04:51:32 pm
Post by: Lenglon on June 01, 2017, 05:16:31 pm
So you are claiming to be very touchy, and that youll close up and refuse to respond if put under hard pressure.
You aren't new to mafia Pozzai, you know responding to pressure by refusing to do anything isnt a good idea. We arent going to let you off the hook just because you dont like being on the hook, thats exactly how mafia doesnt work.
Post by: Pozzai on June 01, 2017, 05:22:34 pm
so, just re-read what you said about why you were being evasive, andI realized I misunderstood you on first pass. Somehow I had thought you were saying there hadnt been direct follow-up by people other than TBF, and that you would have followed up if there had been by anyone. Now I understand that you are simply saying you will refuse to answer questions if they arent phrased politely, with please, rather than direct demands.
So you are claiming to be very touchy, and that youll close up and refuse to respond if put under hard pressure.
You aren't new to mafia Pozzai, you know responding to pressure by refusing to do anything isnt a good idea. We arent going to let you off the hook just because you dont like being on the hook, thats exactly how mafia doesnt work.
TBF didn't pressure me at all, because their accusation is non-existant.
I reacted to people(Doll) going at me for being rude to TBF and evasive, when I merely responded to his question, in the same manner he asked it.
I haven't refused to answer anything that has been directed at me, and "I already posted reads" is an answer. You're presenting issues here that doesn't even exist >_>
Post by: Lenglon on June 01, 2017, 06:06:29 pm
look, this is giving me a headache. could you please re-post your reads real quick? I think it was linked in the last 3 pages or so by someone else but Im tired and I think thisll clear things up better than anything else would, also reposting wont make me try to flip back and forth between phone browser tabs like a link will.
Post by: Pozzai on June 01, 2017, 06:13:32 pm
...
look, this is giving me a headache. could you please re-post your reads real quick? I think it was linked in the last 3 pages or so by someone else but Im tired and I think thisll clear things up better than anything else would, also reposting wont make me try to flip back and forth between phone browser tabs like a link will.
#262 how do you make it a small clickable thing?
Basically what it was originally was:
Slight town:
TBF
Slight scum:
Jack
Doll
Flabort
Scum(though not disclosured at the time)
Tea
Post by: Pozzai on June 01, 2017, 06:16:37 pm
Test?
Post by: Pozzai on June 01, 2017, 06:17:10 pm
Post by: Lenglon on June 01, 2017, 06:24:05 pm
Post by: Jack A T on June 01, 2017, 06:26:59 pm
Pozzai: For a shorter link, you can copy the url into a url tag, like this (remove the spaces at the start of each tag):
[ url=http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164260.msg7471134#msg7471134]This is a link[ /url]
Looks like this:
This is a link (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164260.msg7471134#msg7471134)
Post by: Pozzai on June 01, 2017, 06:33:28 pm
Post by: Pozzai on June 01, 2017, 06:33:53 pm
Guess I could've been less of a dick and previewed it, but oh well :p
Post by: Lenglon on June 01, 2017, 06:38:52 pm
Post by: Pozzai on June 01, 2017, 06:40:31 pm
The comment to tea was not an issue I had with her being interested in discussing reads, it's that she went to the extent she did to nitpick small things extremely early in the game. Nitpickery is what scum tends to do.
I followed this up with a few more questions later, the last one being how her day had been. I considered her tone very off, she's usually fluffier in demeanor, you can usually feel some kind of fun coming from her, which in this game has been absent. I considered it potentially being that she had a crappy day and that could be the issue.
Her response was "good day, crumpy/tired" which I consider a genuine answer, because if she knew what I was fishing for she'd just write "lousy day, don't ask".
She was also my "something something will disclosure later" read in my reads list, because I wanted to see if her tone changed the next day, which it didn't, and which finally let me to the "did you plan any gimmicks" question.
I kind of hoped people would actively show interest in the "will disclosure later" part on their own though, to seem interested, but no one did.
Just because I don't blabber out anything I have in mind all the time, doesn't mean I don't consider stuff, and no, I wont give a full reads list, I never do, I'll give stuff when I feel it's important or I have drained enough information from it that I feel like I can't get any more, which would be glaringly obvious if you had asked for any prior games to look at.
I play some of my cards close to the chest, because it's the best way to catch people unprepared.
Covered it ~20 posts up.
Post by: Lenglon on June 01, 2017, 07:10:25 pm
-snip-Is TolyK right or wrong here? Why?-snip-I believed that I was under unfair criticism, and thus recapped what I've been doing. The point was to show later, if needed, that my accuser was grasping at straws.
TolyK-snip-Why so defensive here?
In retrospect, though, that's what RVS and post-RVS D1 is... grasping at straws to find a weak spot...
-snip-
Post by: Jack A T on June 01, 2017, 07:20:37 pm
Responses
I described it as milking because you did multiple things before I ever posted to frame my relationship to the thread around the wagon on me and nothing else - voting me, asking for an immediate reaction to the wagon, and then talking to Lenglon about his vote on me. This has more or less continued since (e.g. the question to Persus and your responses to me). It's also been my previous experience here that people will for some reason sort of shrug at the actual posts I make (maybe due to formatting?) and hyper-focus on anything that has to do with votes.Tea: Alright, I think I understand your position here. You are uncomfortable not so much with the vote as with my treatment of this as a noteworthy event, one that generates reactions worth looking at. Treatment, I will say, that was more successful here at generating worthwhile interactions than in any of my prior games.
What's interesting here is your highlighting of the question to Persus as part of the milking. Let's look back at it (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164260.msg7470722#msg7470722) for a moment. It is quite clear from the context that Persus was reacting to the wagon (as he confirmed (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164260.msg7470735#msg7470735)). Do you believe his reaction was not worth examining?
Also, a quick question: had the RVS wagon been on TolyK instead of you, would you be similarly uncomfortable?
Curious about using flabort's reaction is what I meant.Ah. The title was interesting, but there was little about Webadict's behaviour to look into either before or after the start of D1, and before, I had almost no context whatsoever for the role of themes. The idea to reveal my theme and use it as RVS fodder? That I came up with on the fly, with full awareness of my role PM.
You know, there's something remarkable about your line of questioning. You've asked a lot of questions about the design of my first post. Alright. Most people question me to figure out my alignment from my posts. Your questions, however, seem aimed somewhere very different. You do a lot of cross-examination-style questioning, yes-no questions with a clear intended response.
Was your wall of questions written in the order that you posted it in?Here, you expected a "yes," the answer that would indicate the least thought and care put into my first post. You didn't get the answer you expected. You got, essentially, "no." You were skeptical. Your response was to cast doubt on the extent to which I put thought and care into the order:
Considering Pozzai was already at the bottom of the playerlist I'm not sure why him ending up in that spot took that much more thought for you?Then there is this question:
...Even though you posted before the game was rolled here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164260.msg7470323#msg7470323), you weren't curious about flabort's reaction until after reading your role PM? Because I felt like that was really the meat of what you decided to include about your claim - using that pregame information as a jumping off point to create RVS information (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164260.msg7470722#msg7470722).Here, your skepticism is aimed at the idea that my decisions, particularly my theme reveal, were built on post-PM thinking, and the question is meant to help show that my decisions were built on unaligned thinking.
You seem remarkably uninterested in figuring out how my alignment is reflected in my behaviour. Instead, you're working hard to disconnect the two, trying to explain my behaviour away as built on unaligned thought and minimizing the influence of my role PM.
So, Tea, consider this the point where my vote shifts from RVS stuff to being something serious. What have you learned from your questions?
Have you gotten the chat link or whatnot?Fallacy: I have the chat link. Quicktopic. I think doll is trying to generate some activity, but at another level, doll wants to use powers and have the chance to use them. Cool set, and a D1/N1 burst means they would definitely get to be used. Legitimately resigned to death, and legitimately will die (whether by suicide or angry mob). This certainly isn't the first deadly point system in a Wuba BYOR, so the role is credible.
[...]
Do you think doll is performing a similar gambit? If so, why?
Everyone: What're y'all impressions of me! :3 Am I a magnet yet. Please treat me as a magnet. [1]Tiruin:
Jack A T: Why do you BYOR D: [2]
[...]
In all seriousness; Jack, how do you feel about my response to you, and to everyone noted here? [3]
[1]: Tiruin waited. The grounds of Rideau Hall, official home of the Canadian monarch, were quiet. Almost still. Almost. Earlier efforts by the mafia (non-Quebecois) had failed, but she knew they were returning.
All was almost still, but only almost. A few blades of grass shifted oddly. A Heraldic Authority office chair creaked slightly. They were coming. They had returned.
The signs had all been there. Another dead internet addict. Another penguin in the wrong climate. Another signup sheet, sixteen names long this time. Tiruin knew. Tiruin knew all too well.
As the mobsters raided her living quarters, though, she could do nothing, for the Tiruin in Rideau Hall was...a fridge magnet. Dun dun dun.
[2]: 'tis fun.
[3]: You took the RVS question first and foremost as a joke, and responded accordingly. Fits with your personality, and was what I expected. The softclaim has been noted; you will have a fun time at massclaim. Beyond that...not sure what you are looking for with the second half of your question. Please clarify.
Content beyond responses later.
Post by: Pozzai on June 01, 2017, 07:34:52 pm
Is TolyK right or wrong here? Why?
That depends largely on a couple of factors. I think overall some people consider defensiveness being scummy, but I know from myself that it can also be a personality thing.
I have a hard time blindly analysing people from behaviour when I don't know them, and I largely agreed with, and feel like a bunch of other people could've been accused for the same.
If Tolyk is usually known as a more stoic and cool and collected type of person it looks bad, if more jitterish and playing on an emotional level, probably less so.
I think the fact that there wasn't too strong backup later of the observations, I'd expect people who's played with Tolyk before let it go because it's fairly typical.
Was it unfair that they were called out, probably not, was it fair no one else were called out, no.
If there's anything from those interactions I would look at and consider leaning one way or the other having no prior experience with them, I think the sort of defensiveness they went into is probably slightly towny, because it revolved around themself, as opposed to them going:
"Omg why me, why not this other dude"
I have also been told a few times because I have a horrible time accepting it, that double-standards typically has a higher chance to come from town, so the whole pot-kettle debacle of TolyK calling out TBF and being salty about then being called out himself could be a slight lean.
So I guess before I blabber on endlessly the TL:DR is:
I don't think it's unfair, it can be anything from a reaction test, to a genuine feeling to scum trying to bury them, all pretty standard. I wish they had engaged a bit more with 4mask to at least get something contentwise out of it.
Post by: Pozzai on June 01, 2017, 07:44:36 pm
Can you talk to me about TBFin a general sense. What would you describe their townplay as, and do they act on a more logical, emotional or gut feeling kind of way?
Post by: webadict on June 01, 2017, 08:18:26 pm
Vote Count
------------------------
4maskwolf -
doll -
FallacyOfUrist - Tea, doll,
flabort - Persus13,
hector13 -
Jack A T -
Lenglon - 4maskwolf,
origamascienceguy -
Persus13 - hector13,
Pozzai - TheBiggerFish, Lenglon,
Shakerag -
Tea - Pozzai, Jack A T,
TheBiggerFish - Tiruin,
TheDarkStar -
Tiruin - Shakerag,
TolyK - FallacyOfUrist,
No Lynch -
Not Voting - TheDarkStar, origamascienceguy, TolyK, flabort,
9 To Hammer. Day Ends on Monday, June 5th at 8:00 PM CST. There is an Extension available.
Post by: Pozzai on June 01, 2017, 08:27:22 pm
Do you have any 'spicy' read on someone who(not necessarily) hasn't been discussed yet you feel could add an interesting addition to the game?
Post by: Tiruin on June 01, 2017, 09:17:57 pm
Tiruin - Shakerag,Shakerag used a /me tag, which colors in red, not actually voting me. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164260.msg7471779#msg7471779)
Let's go something straight:B-but he was my senpai too. We can share the senpai :D
1) Webadict-san liked me best
2) Webadict-san said I was the future, the next generation
3) Webadict-san is dead
4) This was senpai's town
5) This is my town now
Quote
And yes, I'm the class bully. Tiruin is usually the class rep.U-uh, *ahem*, I've a flower in my suit! ...Dress. Clothing!
Unfortunately for you, I'm the one with the gun.
Doll is cool D:
[In all seriousness, I'm targeting you tonight. Nothing bad, just hugs. And protection. And that's really your role name right? If anything negative happens, it wasn't me {but as my suspicions state, someone {ADDING_ON} to anything I do; there is nothing malevolent in any of my actions :V I am like a stone wall, who can only be defeated if you know my name. Or poison.]
Yeah, I'm agreeing to this :P This is why I'm pretty friendly with doll today [also that he just revealed his role name and I'm totally serious about what I said even if I white lied about my theme :V]Mostly in terms of doll's "I'm gonna go nova on y'all tonight", slightly rising disrespect between players (though it's obviously in a humorous form :P), and too many streams-of-consciousness that need to be sifted through.Hey hey hey. What happens in mafia stays in mafia. Although I am not above holding a grudge between games (Still waiting on the right time/game/roll to fuck flabort on D1).
Even if he's pretty grumpy towards some players.
Well, this has suddenly gone downhill, hasn't it.IN YOUR EYES MAYBE @_@
Alright, alright, I got it.TolyK: Thoughts of the game and people's posts in general?
My reasoning was to claim a part of my role. The reason w** I did that? To form a bit of trust, mostly to slightly increase the likelyhood that Jack would accept. I intend to give more information to Jack personally, as part of the experiment thingie. Other than this, I'm not currently giving out more information. Take what you will.
Also, you're doing this to Jack--in public--with little idea of how he thinks.
Why do you want to form trust with Jack, specifically?
Tiruin:D-do I get to hold up your pictures? c:Please treat me as a magnet./me sticks Tiruin on his fridge.
You...can't inspect as an SK unless inspections are role specific. People inspect your alignment :VI have no inspection powers unless I know the person's role name. :v So that's an auxiliary action for funsies.Well I like you too, Tir.
Unvote, Shakerag.
You are very forthcoming. I like you.
But can you explain what an sk-miller IS?! Do you wanna KEEL ME!? I know you do! O_O
In all seriousness: I choose to not believe you on that bit; you can lie about your role and such, and it's a bit touchy-sensitive-y to denote 'I made my role bluh-y so this is my claim because of it'
Why are you claiming SK-Miller when both results are anti-town anyway?
(Also if I ever die, can my death flavor include cake?)
SK-Miller: I inspect as an SK. Seems pretty straightforward? O_o
Of course I want to kill you. It's the best way to get a read on your alignment.
Alright, well, believe what you want. I'm claiming (SK-)Miller because I agree with Toaster's analysis from a long while ago that it is optimal play to claim miller (if you are one) in your first post.
I can't control your death flavor, sorry.
So you turn up as third-party.
Somebody be BAIT today :V And he may be SHAEKRAG! V:
Anyone else gonna action Shakerag or Doll? I'm blatantly fishing because it helps {me}! :D
Also, how excited are you about your role?Not much, honestly :< I depend on people targeting me because I nullify stuff. {This is untrue}
But I really depend on people's ability names, rolenames, or knowing if another person targets my target, for ability boosts! {Not really}
But seriously: I'm excited because I get to play in a game with cool dudes. I'm rather not that much excited with my role, but I love it all the same. Like if you wanted a puppy but got a rabbit. Still güd.
[paranoia] People are asking me how excited I am because it MATTERS to their abilities D: Flabort is tied with Shakerag! :O[/paranoia]
Tiruin: Heyo! That was quite an entrance! It seems like theres a push going against FoU for active-lurking, but all day not a single person has addressed you with a single question despite you making only that single solitary entrance-post. Theres nobody with a read of you and yet nobody with an interest in questioning you... what do you think about that?I feel sad u_u But! I guess people are busy with their own agendas and Tiruin-magnet is pushed to the side of the fridge. Collecting moisture like a less-wanted pineapple magnet compared to those alphabet magnets that get in nice letter arrangements because people like names more.
Otherwise I'm just drifting through the day with my own agenda too! :O Getting my notes on people, taking down who is connecting to whom, and noting how people say their thing in relation to the long-term. Otherwise, I'm okay with them (everyone else) in general anyway; people will be looking back tomorrow when, presumably, stuff gets happening in the night or otherwise. And considering some people being all sneaky snarky, there's a bit of power in their plans [sadly none in mine because I went NONPOWER :V]
Lenglon (heeeey girl!): What do you think about me? @_@
Pozzai: Welcome to the Bay12 Mafia :D
Sorry for the lacking greeting--and nice to see you here from Tea--and that you're both good friends! ^ ^
I've been reading your conversations lately and I do note that you've been interacting with her a lot; there's nothing wrong in that but I'm curious: How do you feel about people treating your connections with others here and now?
What do you also think about the other players here? {All of us other than Tea? A basic list of people plus a sentence or three of detail helps}
[3]: You took the RVS question first and foremost as a joke, and responded accordingly. Fits with your personality, and was what I expected. The softclaim has been noted; you will have a fun time at massclaim. Beyond that...not sure what you are looking for with the second half of your question. Please clarify.
Quote
In all seriousness; Jack, how do you feel about my response to you, and to everyone noted here? [3]It's more me mentioning the 'everyone' I noted in my first post. Rather than 'everyone', it's moreso the address to everyone. First portions of my post here. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164260.msg7471662#msg7471662)
Also, if you had the thought of mentioning your role/ability
Post by: Tiruin on June 01, 2017, 09:25:25 pm
TBF: Can you give an overall outlook on the person you're most pursuing?
Do you have any details on the rest around you? Like others commenting on what you do or otherwise?
Why do you go after the person you're pursuing with all your posts?
Post by: Pozzai on June 01, 2017, 09:41:01 pm
Pozzai: Welcome to the Bay12 Mafia :D
Sorry for the lacking greeting--and nice to see you here from Tea--and that you're both good friends! ^ ^
I've been reading your conversations lately and I do note that you've been interacting with her a lot; there's nothing wrong in that but I'm curious: How do you feel about people treating your connections with others here and now?
What do you also think about the other players here? {All of us other than Tea? A basic list of people plus a sentence or three of detail helps}
Basically what I usually does is to get a feel of people I know and expand early from that, which tends to create an issue in games where there's a lack of people I know.
I find the lack of interest in what those interactions might mean from a meta point of view slightly disturbing, it's strange to me why people think it's suspect for me to actually interact with someone I have a history with, especially seeing as a large part of it was basically me going "hey no one cares to give or discuss reads, so I'm gonna poke someone I know tends to"
And thoughts on everyone in the game, I quite frankly can't, if nothing of seemingly importance for me pops up in posts I kind of forget about who said stuff, meaning I have a bunch of people where my general feeling is "well, I guess they might potentially be around here somewhere"
Those I have opinions about in terms of reads I've largely given.
Outside that my thoughts on people I have paid a little attention to:
Skagerag - Kai
The playstyle and in my perspective general 'shitposting' fairly early struck me as a player I've played with named Kai(albeit not as many pictures) and as such I largely ignored the slot as I have a terrible time even remotely trying to read slots like those.
Flabort - observer
Largely hands off, which makes them feel detached from the game.
Lenglon - Idfk
Been mulling over the interactions I've recently had with her but can't quite get a grasp.
Rest including you I've either given reads/opinions on, or are floating around the abyss of "haven't said anything that makes me feel one way or the other"
Post by: TheBiggerFish on June 01, 2017, 09:45:49 pm
I don't quite understand what you mean by that question. Yes, I' ve seen people commenting on my actions? Lenglon specifically, most recently.
Because I have something to actually pursue.
Pozzai:I wouldn't say it's that you are interacting with someone you know, it's that you appeared to be only interacting with the person you know. That said, you've stopped doing it, so Unvote.
Post by: TheBiggerFish on June 01, 2017, 09:48:20 pm
Also Pozzai: I'd like to see a complete list of reads, all in one place, yes I know you've already posted them but I doubt they haven't changed.
Post by: Shakerag on June 01, 2017, 09:50:56 pm
Skagerag - KaiHold up. I got about 3-5 more shots of vodka to go and then I'll show you some shitposting.
The playstyle and in my perspective general 'shitposting' fairly early struck me as a player I've played with named Kai(albeit not as many pictures) and as such I largely ignored the slot as I have a terrible time even remotely trying to read slots like those.
Post by: TheBiggerFish on June 01, 2017, 09:53:00 pm
...oh dear. Don't go too crazy on him, okay? We don't want to scare people off.Skagerag - KaiHold up. I got about 3-5 more shots of vodka to go and then I'll show you some shitposting.
The playstyle and in my perspective general 'shitposting' fairly early struck me as a player I've played with named Kai(albeit not as many pictures) and as such I largely ignored the slot as I have a terrible time even remotely trying to read slots like those.
Post by: TheDarkStar on June 01, 2017, 09:53:21 pm
Pozzai: We don't know who "Kai" is.
Also Pozzai: I'd like to see a complete list of reads, all in one place, yes I know you've already posted them but I doubt they haven't changed.
TheBiggerFish, he literally has responded to both comments you have in the post right above your two posts. I understand that you're annoyed with Pozzai's playstyle, but now it feels like you're applying pressure for no reason. You've unvoted, but you still say that he's the most suspicious player to you. Why?
Post by: TheBiggerFish on June 01, 2017, 09:56:32 pm
There should have been a ninja indicator in the middle of that post - I got interrupted by Pozzai interacting with Tiruin, which significantly changed my read.Pozzai: We don't know who "Kai" is.
Also Pozzai: I'd like to see a complete list of reads, all in one place, yes I know you've already posted them but I doubt they haven't changed.
TheBiggerFish, he literally has responded to both comments you have in the post right above your two posts. I understand that you're annoyed with Pozzai's playstyle, but now it feels like you're applying pressure for no reason. You've unvoted, but you still say that he's the most suspicious player to you. Why?
Post by: TheBiggerFish on June 01, 2017, 09:59:35 pm
No, I asked for a complete list of reads, including the null reads and the ones he said he didn't include in that post.
Post by: Tiruin on June 01, 2017, 10:06:18 pm
@Tiruin: I'm most suspicious of Pozzai. Refusing to engage and clinging to Tea just kind of make me think 'scum'.Why, specifically?
There should have been a ninja indicator in the middle of that post - I got interrupted by Pozzai interacting with Tiruin, which significantly changed my read.Why do you think he interacted with me?
Post by: Pozzai on June 01, 2017, 10:12:21 pm
Pozzai: We don't know who "Kai" is.
Also Pozzai: I'd like to see a complete list of reads, all in one place, yes I know you've already posted them but I doubt they haven't changed.
Which is why I added a sentence underneath which explains what that contained.
How come you haven't posted your own reads, being so interested in mine?
And yes they have changed a bit.
Town:
Lenglon kind of seems like she's interested in progressing the game, and actually exploring people's alignment. A few downsides is some very awkward conclussions regarding what my general playstyle has to do with alignment this game.
Scumlean:
Jack, not overly impressed with what they've concluded from their initial 'play' of the day, and while I personally got nothing from it, I would've expected more as a result when a person goes into the game making a play. Usually you have an idea of what you hope to obtain, and in general it seemed lackluster.
Scum:
Tea, she's not as fluffy and friendly as I usually see her, she seems detached emotionally from the game and at an arms' length. I went into my whole progress at exploring this earlier how my thoughts expanded and what measures I went to to explore this, asking about her day, giving her another day to see if it changed(and it didn't noticeably)
TBF, opportunistic, originally called a Tea-Pozzai interaction weird, later as pressure arises on Pozzai, jumps it and joins in to second it, saying the weird interaction is now based on Pozzai buddying. Inability or unwillingness to answer questions as to point out where exactly those buddy interactions take place past "somewhere in this sentence" and to respond to where the line between a discussion of reads and a buddy attempt go and what they look for.
Slight shade throwing for not reading up on past games, yet hasn't shown any interest in exploring past games of Pozzai or Tea.
Doesn't seem to care about answers they get. Ie not checking or asking for the reads they initially asked for, missing answers repeatedly.
Small arrow upwards for the obliviousness of their own being. Seems fairly non-self-aware.
Doll, destroying anything interaction based with their claim, nitpicky and misrepresentation of comments and a lack of an overall view on interactions best seen when their conclussion earlier is that "Pozzai intends to hide his prior reads" when the whole interaction and first post started out with Pozzai asking TBF why they didn't do anything with their reads.
Conclussions doesn't fit the overall picture, but only the snippets they choose to pick, and therefore comes off more as a person looking for a lynch, than a person looking for scum.
Honourable nominee for my second ISO goes to Persus. The whole "doll is right about you" is super lazy and shows no thoughts on their own.
First ISO was Jack, and I got jackshit out of that =/
Post by: Tea on June 01, 2017, 10:28:31 pm
Pozzai- DarkStar is archetypically very similar to Kalas. I have only ever seen him be mafia before (played with him twice and observed him once) and have always wanted to murder him with a fiery passion. The fact that I don't want to rn is unusual. I characterize his scum play as slimy/agenda-y/mindset-slippy.
... If you can be on in like four hours we're going to have a talk about that "emotionally detached" bit, because what. Among many other things.
Post by: TheBiggerFish on June 01, 2017, 10:35:38 pm
I don't know why he interacted with you, other than I guess that you, you know, asked him questions. I do know that it was a departure from what I saw as a pattern of mostly refusing to interact.
@Pozzai: Saying "Kai is like Shakerag is like Kai" isn't helpful either. Yes, you've given some differentiation, I guess, but it's not exactly going to help us understand your understanding of Shakerag.
@Pozzai: I believe you're missing something called 'context'. The feeling that your interaction was weird predated the pressure on you, as far as I know (and as far as you've said), and my later clarification that it felt like buddying was pretty much why I thought it was weird. I just wasn't in any state to articulate that the first time I posted.
How come I haven't posted my own reads: First off, a lot of them are null. Second off, I've already made my suspicions clear. Basically, the only thing I've got is a slight scumlean on you, right now. Everyone else I haven't really had much interaction with or observation of to build a decent idea.
Also, why the heck are you referring to yourself in the third person in that readlist? Strikes me as a cheap rhetorical trick...
...No, I "threw shade" on you for not reading the stickied threads, not past games. The stickied threads aren't past games (mostly). Jack A T told you that, even. So why do you misrepresent me like that?
Pozzai: How confident are you in your meta read of Tea?
Tea: What do you think of Pozzai's read on you?
Also Tea:Who is Kalas?
Post by: Pozzai on June 01, 2017, 10:39:55 pm
Pozzai: How confident are you in your meta read of Tea?
Tea: What do you think of Pozzai's read on you?
Also Tea:Who is Kalas?
Lets see what she returns with and I'll give you a number. I generally have not been overly good at reading her day1 like ever, soooo.
Kalas is a person Tea and me has played with because I asked her if her read was based on the way she read Vaimes(which is another person we have played with)
It's largely irrelevant for everyone else because it's merely an attempt at seeing how she reads a person that no one here knows, so only of help to me.
Post by: TheBiggerFish on June 01, 2017, 10:42:35 pm
For reference. I replaced all the 'Pozzai's with the appropriate first-person pronouns. I'm not sure why there's a their there, so I left that intact, but as I hadn't posted reads or even intimated any, I suspect it was also a reference to Pozzai.Pozzai: We don't know who "Kai" is.
Also Pozzai: I'd like to see a complete list of reads, all in one place, yes I know you've already posted them but I doubt they haven't changed.
Which is why I added a sentence underneath which explains what that contained.
How come you haven't posted your own reads, being so interested in mine?
And yes they have changed a bit.
Town:
Lenglon kind of seems like she's interested in progressing the game, and actually exploring people's alignment. A few downsides is some very awkward conclussions regarding what my general playstyle has to do with alignment this game.
Scumlean:
Jack, not overly impressed with what they've concluded from their initial 'play' of the day, and while I personally got nothing from it, I would've expected more as a result when a person goes into the game making a play. Usually you have an idea of what you hope to obtain, and in general it seemed lackluster.
Scum:
Tea, she's not as fluffy and friendly as I usually see her, she seems detached emotionally from the game and at an arms' length. I went into my whole progress at exploring this earlier how my thoughts expanded and what measures I went to to explore this, asking about her day, giving her another day to see if it changed(and it didn't noticeably)
TBF, opportunistic, originally called an interaction with Tea and I weird, later as pressure arises on me, jumps it and joins in to second it, saying the weird interaction is now based on me buddying. Inability or unwillingness to answer questions as to point out where exactly those buddy interactions take place past "somewhere in this sentence" and to respond to where the line between a discussion of reads and a buddy attempt go and what they look for.
Slight shade throwing for not reading up on past games, yet hasn't shown any interest in exploring past games of myself or Tea.
Doesn't seem to care about answers they get. Ie not checking or asking for the reads they initially asked for, missing answers repeatedly.
Small arrow upwards for the obliviousness of their own being. Seems fairly non-self-aware.
Doll, destroying anything interaction based with their claim, nitpicky and misrepresentation of comments and a lack of an overall view on interactions best seen when their conclussion earlier is that "Pozzai intends to hide his prior reads" when the whole interaction and first post started out with me asking TBF why they didn't do anything with their reads.
Conclussions doesn't fit the overall picture, but only the snippets they choose to pick, and therefore comes off more as a person looking for a lynch, than a person looking for scum.
Honourable nominee for my second ISO goes to Persus. The whole "doll is right about you" is super lazy and shows no thoughts on their own.
First ISO was Jack, and I got jackshit out of that =/
@Ninja-Pozzai:
I see. Do you think this focus on people we don't know is going to help or hurt later?
Post by: Pozzai on June 01, 2017, 10:43:56 pm
@Pozzai: Saying "Kai is like Shakerag is like Kai" isn't helpful either. Yes, you've given some differentiation, I guess, but it's not exactly going to help us understand your understanding of Shakerag.
@Pozzai: I believe you're missing something called 'context'. The feeling that your interaction was weird predated the pressure on you, as far as I know (and as far as you've said), and my later clarification that it felt like buddying was pretty much why I thought it was weird. I just wasn't in any state to articulate that the first time I posted.
It's not meant to be overly representative for you.
I'm merely saying he's playing like this guy I know that plays with lots of shitposting and I generally find highly unhelpful and as a result do not know how to read well. Therefore I decided to shelf Skag unless something really catches my eye because I know that if that feeling I have turns out to be true, I'll probably be stuck in a clusterfuck of a tunnel.
Yes, the "weird" comment predated the pressure, but it is also non-committing, which means if Tea had gained traction instead of me early next day, you could easily have pushed it as it being "Tea is buddying/sweettalking/whatever Pozzai"
It is essentially an empty statement you can turn whatever manner helps you, by not actually taking a stance on it till a later point where it just comes off extremely opportunistic instead.
Post by: Shakerag on June 01, 2017, 10:46:05 pm
...oh dear. Don't go too crazy on him, okay? We don't want to scare people off.YOU"RE NOT MY REAL DAD, YOU CAN"T TELL ME WHAT TO DO
Post by: Pozzai on June 01, 2017, 10:47:51 pm
@Ninja-Pozzai:
I see. Do you think this focus on people we don't know is going to help or hurt later?
I think it will largely be irrelevant for anyone but myself and Tea. We simply lack knowledge of people here to draw the connection to, so we use people each of us know to create a "baseline" for the manner of reads made.
It's nothing but a "let me get into your head and follow your thought process" kind of question.
Post by: Shakerag on June 01, 2017, 11:02:11 pm
But not drunk enough, as I can apparently still catch typos. Hmm.
Oh well. Let's get started.
Time for the reads!
Shakerag - all of the -ists. ALL OF THEM.
flabort - pig fucker extrodinarre. But in regards to this game, I got's no idea.
TheDarkStar - nothin'
Lenglon - nothin'
Tiruin - Is like seriously Mr. Rogers. But female. And not american. and likely not a sniper.
origamascienceguy - I keep thinking you're origasimicscienceguy. Which is kind of more interesting.
TolyK - Still untrustworthy since KYOSN.
hector13 - duno
FallacyOfUrist - also dunno
Persus13 - holy shit, i totally have no opinions on most player sin this game
Jack A T - my fellow cher fanboy
4maskwolf - gambit. But not the cool x-man. Just a dude with a fucked up avatar/
TheBiggerFish - a kangaroo
doll - reminds me of vector. Which means I want to punch him/her/it in the face.
Tea - I hate tea. Dunno about the player.
Pozzai - Also dunno, but since ponzi is new to bay12, is likely going to get ganed up on. Scum is likely going to try to push a lynch on this dude.
Ok, need to check on my food because cooking while drunk is totally a good idea exspecailly with a gast stove.
Post by: Shakerag on June 01, 2017, 11:28:14 pm
Dude. Like. Listen
Pozzai: Stop buddying Tea, geez.
So Tea said he/she/it was friends with pozzai before the game began. And Tea invited Ponzi into the game. So OF COURCE they're gonna be buddy buddy, because they are buddies.
Stop acting like dumshit scum looking for an easy reason for a lynch.
Post by: Shakerag on June 01, 2017, 11:31:40 pm
WebadictAhh, whoops.Tiruin - Shakerag,Shakerag used a /me tag, which colors in red, not actually voting me. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164260.msg7471779#msg7471779)
Wait.
Why am I apoligozieng. Webadict is the one who screwed. up.
Anyway.
I didn't mean to vote for tir.
shakerag
Post by: Shakerag on June 01, 2017, 11:34:13 pm
I'd like to note that it's pretty damn unsurprising that in an unfamiliar gametype and meta, a foreign player has the longest interaction with the only person they've played with before and who's play they've got the strongest grasp of.Ahh, see? Here? As much as I want doll to die in a fire, this is a good point.
Post by: TheBiggerFish on June 01, 2017, 11:35:41 pm
@Shakerag: Yeah, friendly, but not buddying. Either way, Pozzai has mostly convinced me that they aren't actually buddying, anyway, so you're a bit late on that.
Post by: Shakerag on June 01, 2017, 11:37:52 pm
...Aww come on mate, what the fuck do you expect to get from some jackasses reads on D1?
look, this is giving me a headache. could you please re-post your reads real quick? I think it was linked in the last 3 pages or so by someone else but Im tired and I think thisll clear things up better than anything else would, also reposting wont make me try to flip back and forth between phone browser tabs like a link will.
Post by: Shakerag on June 01, 2017, 11:38:30 pm
Why am I a kangaroo?i dunno. seems liked a good idea at the time.
@Shakerag: Yeah, friendly, but not buddying. Either way, Pozzai has mostly convinced me that they aren't actually buddying, anyway, so you're a bit late on that.
O. right. gotcha. Caryy on.
Post by: Shakerag on June 01, 2017, 11:45:53 pm
So I'll just say this. If you're white, male and in college right now - I feel so sorry for you.
Also, this is why I won't have kids. That and the fact that I'm a selfish asshole. and overpopulation. Also it helps to not be in an abusive relationship.
So yeah. Someone should inspect Tiruin, because no one can never read her. And she's usually scum.
Holy christ it's weird to see spiders on your secueity cameras.
I'd watch out for anyone pushing Tea on bullshit reasons too. he/she/it would likely be a candidate for a scum mislynch.
Hmm. well kids, I'm off to play some tf2 for a bit. bbl
Post by: Lenglon on June 02, 2017, 12:10:29 am
Having said that, my opinion of TBF's meta is that hes shortsighted but energetic. Hes useful early on because his energy generates activity but the later in the game it gets the more he mostly generates white noise. His analysis is lackluster and he doesnt read into peoples posts deeply enough to make emotional reads either. He is pretty much impossible to tell alignment of because his town meta is nonfunctional as town, so hes on my standing list to just lynch on general principal if I dont have anyone better to lynch - hes a permanant nullread. He also has a tendency to bandwagon as both town and scum, and will, again as both, push weak cases with lots of vitriol, generally making him an easy lynch for the scumteam, so a number of vets around here treat pushing a case on him similar to pushing a case on an idle player - not a problem in itself but doesnt generate *real* activity and if done without anything else then it counts as active-lurking.
Post by: Lenglon on June 02, 2017, 12:16:28 am
Post by: Lenglon on June 02, 2017, 12:21:02 am
Post by: Jack A T on June 02, 2017, 12:45:47 am
It's more me mentioning the 'everyone' I noted in my first post. Rather than 'everyone', it's moreso the address to everyone. First portions of my post here. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164260.msg7471662#msg7471662)Tiruin: That evening, Jack A T, agent of CSIS, arrived on scene. There was one witness to the horrible crime, apparently. A fridge magnet. He'd seen stranger.
Most magnets don't start by asking everyone for impressions. She did. There were not many impressions by then. The timing was off.
Still, Jack wondered about the magnet's, er, magneticness. What was a talking fridge magnet doing in the Queen of Canada's living quarters?
But seriously, not sure what you were trying to accomplish there. Little content to get an impression of you this game at that time, and if you meant it as a way to get mafia-relevant impressions of you in general, it didn't consistently come off that way. Magnetism is intriguing. May be worth remembering when evaluating your eventual claim.
Also, if you had the thought of mentioning your role/abilityI have yet to determine my all-powerful true name. I have considered hinting at part of my convoluted role name, though. I will say this in public for now: I'm a modified version of WWI's worst rifle. The time is neither strategically right nor comedically well timed for a name reveal. Are you satisfied with this response?/truename--which may happen while reading this sentence--would you mention it in public?
Jack, not overly impressed with what they've concluded from their initial 'play' of the day, and while I personally got nothing from it, I would've expected more as a result when a person goes into the game making a play. Usually you have an idea of what you hope to obtain, and in general it seemed lackluster.Pozzai: 'tis what happens when the mod steps in to declare that the system at the core of the play is mostly just for flavour. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164260.msg7470543#msg7470543) Doesn't help six hours in.
@JackAs a matter of fact, I do have a read that goes against the grain.
Do you have any 'spicy' read on someone who(not necessarily) hasn't been discussed yet you feel could add an interesting addition to the game?
Reads
Shakerag: Is Shakerag in D1. Has claimed SK-miller: towntell (or at least not-mafia-tell). Very (PPE: very) (PPE x lots: very) shitposty, though did pursue TolyK a bit. Might still have a liver. Miller claim leaves him with a town lean.
flabort: Distant observer, mostly complaining about the laziness of others. Posts are smaller than they look: non-noteworthy responses sandwiched between lightly trimmed quotes. Contributed very little, and almost entirely against easy targets. Weak scum lean
TheDarkStar: Exists. Has some light reads, and is currently on TBF. Mostly just exists. Null.
Lenglon: Lots of quick posts. Currently on Pozzai for evasiveness, where evasiveness is refusal to repost earlier reads. Situation has changed a bit. Is trying to move the game forward, and is quite active. Slight town.
Tiruin: Just showed up, and so far hasn't had much chance for in-depth interactions. Seems very Tiruin, though. Tiruin.
origamiscienceguy: Hasn't had the chance to post much at all. Null.
TolyK: Dragged me into a quicktopic. Made a big public offer, one that would obviously attract questions. Openness in quicktopic is reassuring. Should do more in thread. Town lean.
hector13: Interesting first post, with a serious early vote for Persus. Won't be active again for a bit, though. I look forward to his next post. Null for lack of extended content.
FallacyofUrist: Hasn't left RVS yet, aside from a little bit of TolyK examination. Wary neutral.
Persus13: Hasn't posted often, but has targets and is questioning widely (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164260.msg7471748#msg7471748). Mild town
4maskwolf: Start of game, he came off well, clashing against social norms to get his opinions out. Then his contributions started thinning out. Content-light posts for a while, and nothing for over 24 hours. I get the impression that he's busy in the background, and look forward to his return. Null.
TheBiggerFish: Has done almost nothing but bicker with Pozzai (eventually going into a buddying vote that eventually was retracted) and ask who Tea is (several times). Is at least very actively bickering with Pozzai. Aggressively unhelpful. This is somewhat in character, though. I want reads. Mild, mild scum.
doll:
1) Either I've fucked up Day 1 for no reason at all and am the most obvious lynch possible on Day 2, or I'm not going to be here come Day 2
2) Therefore, vote me if I am alive D2+ and don't vote me otherwise
Tea: See my last post. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164260.msg7472380#msg7472380)
Pozzai: What we're seeing here is a case of culture shock, first and foremost. Differences in theory are to be expected, as are differences in playstyle. He's new to Bay 12 and experienced elsewhere. Seems to have been thrown off by the start-of-day behaviour. That said, when he posts reads, it's clear that he is putting thought into the game. More importantly, the reads make him seem genuinely interested in players' alignments, clearly observant and attentive. Moderate town. I'd love to see more questioning of suspects, though.
flabort: I understand you like sitting back for much of D1. People are starting to place non-RVS votes now, though, and are making arguments. I'd like to see your comments on each sitting vote.
FallacyofUrist: I'd like the same from you that I'm asking from flabort.
4maskwolf: You have a vote on Lenglon (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164260.msg7470420#msg7470420) from the start of the game for placing the third vote in an RVS bandwagon. What are your current thoughts on Lenglon? Do you feel comfortable with your vote there?
TheBiggerFish: Let's see your reads.
Lenglon: What are your current thoughts on Pozzai?
Post by: Lenglon on June 02, 2017, 01:04:06 am
Post by: TheBiggerFish on June 02, 2017, 01:20:06 am
Reads:
Anyone not listed is null or I forgot.
Lenglon: Helpful. Leaning town.
Jack A T: Comprehensive readlist, townish.
Pozzai: New. Very much not adjusted to the meta. Still pinging scumdar a little, but less so. Mild scum.
Tea: Why am I so incapable of noticing them. This is really weird.
Shakerag: Strong Shakerag. Mild town.
Tiruin: As incomprehensible as ever. :v
doll: No-one is that crazy. Town.
Post by: Jack A T on June 02, 2017, 01:22:43 am
Post by: Lenglon on June 02, 2017, 01:26:30 am
Post by: Jack A T on June 02, 2017, 01:28:59 am
Post by: Tea on June 02, 2017, 01:50:26 am
FallacyofUrist is, uh. Thinking about the game like someone who expects to be around for a long time, for whatever reason?
I can see where you're coming from with most of those things, not sure I agree with it finalising my read as strong a scumlean as you seem to get from it, but can you walk me through the bolded part?
I guess there's two main things that make me think that:
- The closest thing to a real stance on the game he has are theories about what to do later w/r/t doll
-> "If you're still alive D2, everybody's going to come after you hard. Including me. With that said... if you don't get suspicious, I'll be fine putting you onto a lower priority. / That said, saying "don't scum hunt me" is pretty suspicious... if not exactly suspicious in a normal manner. / *muses* Jester gambit?" (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164260.msg7470718#msg7470718) <-- stream of consciousness to me here sounds kinda fake, lack of nuance in his follow-up on her actual content is bothersome to me in this post (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164260.msg7471314#msg7471314). Like, his "if you don't get suspicious" seems all talk no action.
-> "And don't ask me why I'm not using it on doll in response, because I'm answering that now: because doll has claimed she'll be dead D2. If she's not, you can expect(most likely) that my vote will go right onto her." (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164260.msg7470759#msg7470759)
- Him putting a lot of depth into answers on how to scumhunt people's questions (throughout here (http://[url=http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164260.msg7470729#msg7470729) & in the answer to Jack here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164260.msg7470627#msg7470627)) but not feeling bothered to get reads yet or apply any of his outlined theories later here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164260.msg7471314#msg7471314) - I feel like this post is made to paint a pretty picture of thoughts on the game more than it's made by someone really motivated to advance their understanding of the game short-term.
I thought deadline was a lot sooner than it actually is which weakens the read a bit. What drew me to him in the first place is an apparent overall vibe of nervous energy (prompted the alignment preference question) which is still present in his later posts.
Post by: Pozzai on June 02, 2017, 02:04:33 am
... If you can be on in like four hours we're going to have a talk about that "emotionally detached" bit, because what. Among many other things.
Hai, waddup?
Post by: Tea on June 02, 2017, 02:22:13 am
Post by: Lenglon on June 02, 2017, 02:39:46 am
Post by: Pozzai on June 02, 2017, 02:42:37 am
Just a quick side-question Tea, what is NAI short for? Context makes me think its Not Actually Informative but I dont really know.
Not Alignment Indicative.
Post by: Lenglon on June 02, 2017, 02:56:27 am
Post by: Tea on June 02, 2017, 03:03:24 am
... If you can be on in like four hours we're going to have a talk about that "emotionally detached" bit, because what. Among many other things.
Hai, waddup?
Hi.
I feel like I've worn on my fucking sleeve that I have actively not enjoyed playing this game from the onset, but that I am still trying my best to get and give reads. Why I was grumpy in the first place - Jack asking me to react to something inorganic/meaningless - has lended itself to me having been implictly expected to spend hours each day since delving further into something I straight up said I did not want my experience in this game to be defined by. Your expectation that I would wake up and enjoy the game more is, uh, really misguided, though I appreciate the nuance that went into you trying to reaction test around it, I guess? Maybe? I don't feel at arms length; I feel like I'm here and drowning and like there's nowhere near enough hours in the day for me to respond to ~~questions~~ and actually, like, deeply read.
It's reassuring that you are coming around to the same thought about Leng as me albeit from different posts. Uh. I wanna take some deep breaths and discuss reads. I think.
Post by: Jack A T on June 02, 2017, 03:11:01 am
Jack - Im having trouble following your case against Tea. I see the focus on your first post, the leading binary questions, etc, but I am having trouble making the final leap to scum. could you break down that last logical step for me?Lenglon: It's the apparent disinterest in my alignment that's alarming. The questions are careful, purposeful... and meant to find alignment irrelevance. It's not a search for my alignment so much as a search for ways to not find my alignment. Scum, even in third-party-heavy games like this, is quite a bit less interested in determining the alignments of others than town. They'll question carefully and question well, but not first and foremost to discern alignments. Thus, the behaviour is troubling.
PPE: Hm. Reads might need adjusting soon.
Post by: Lenglon on June 02, 2017, 03:22:21 am
Post by: Tea on June 02, 2017, 03:24:42 am
Okay. Makes sense. But... to me specifically? Not people in general?KYOSN mod ninja!Well, considering there's very little I could do to prove I'm not a cult leader, sans opening up all my cards, I would probably not care too much unless you were actively trying to lead the town to my lynch (and potentially succeeding). Since my death would probably be a setback for the town, I'd consider explaining my role in more detail to convince that I'm not a cult leader.
... TolyK obv cult leader gambit.
Well, maybe.
Well, a vote is meant to be used. TolyK: What do you think the odds are that a cult leader might pass their conversion off as an expanding mason group?
Interestingly, if Jack accepts the experiment, I could more or less prove to you specifically that I'm not a cult leader during this day. I would prefer not to, but I might if it comes to that.
This interaction is another reason I don't like Fallacy. It starts off with some more stream of consciousness that I find forced, and then Fallacy forgot how he framed the initial question by the time it was answered.
Post by: Pozzai on June 02, 2017, 03:26:56 am
Hi.
I feel like I've worn on my fucking sleeve that I have actively not enjoyed playing this game from the onset, but that I am still trying my best to get and give reads. Why I was grumpy in the first place - Jack asking me to react to something inorganic/meaningless - has lended itself to me having been implictly expected to spend hours each day since delving further into something I straight up said I did not want my experience in this game to be defined by. Your expectation that I would wake up and enjoy the game more is, uh, really misguided, though I appreciate the nuance that went into you trying to reaction test around it, I guess? Maybe? I don't feel at arms length; I feel like I'm here and drowning and like there's nowhere near enough hours in the day for me to respond to ~~questions~~ and actually, like, deeply read.
It's reassuring that you are coming around to the same thought about Leng as me albeit from different posts. Uh. I wanna take some deep breaths and discuss reads. I think.
The only game I feel like is any kind of similar attitude to this was our last game together(and even that is a stretch) and clearly certain factors in this game makes that very different. In that game you also replaced out.
Sure you might've not overly enjoyed the manner the game started, but I've seen you not appreciate a game before and finding joy in other places?
I have never seen you so 'cold' before and I don't fucking know what to do with that?
Why didn't you engage me for reads/discussion if you didn't like the way the game went ?
Post by: Pozzai on June 02, 2017, 03:35:21 am
Who do you think would be really interesting to you to figure out in terms of alignment, and why that one individual?
Post by: Jack A T on June 02, 2017, 03:38:06 am
That... still is a type of alignment search though. ass-backwards, maybe, but its better than RVS. I dont see how its scummy to search unusually, its still searching after all. am I still missing something?Lenglon: To put it more simply: the trappings of scumhunting on a search for null-tells. If successful, it looks good at a glance but helps little with reads. If failed, it looks good at a glance but helps little with reads. Close to RVS in addition to town knowledge, but it looks helpful.
That being said, these last few posts are leading me to think an alignment-irrelevant motive may likely be the cause, and my vote has a growing chance of shifting after a response.
Post by: Lenglon on June 02, 2017, 03:43:09 am
Post by: Tea on June 02, 2017, 03:52:27 am
Actually screap that last bit.
Who do you think would be really interesting to you to figure out in terms of alignment, and why that one individual?
There's two.
Jack because I wish my read there was a lot stronger for how much thought I've given to him, and because emotions.
Hector because he seems to approach the game a lot differently from me but also carries himself in such a way that I'm fairly likely to yield my view of the game in favor of his, and I'd at least rather scum not have that sway over my brain :b.
Post by: Pozzai on June 02, 2017, 04:00:33 am
Actually screap that last bit.
Who do you think would be really interesting to you to figure out in terms of alignment, and why that one individual?
There's two.
Jack because I wish my read there was a lot stronger for how much thought I've given to him, and because emotions.
Hector because he seems to approach the game a lot differently from me but also carries himself in such a way that I'm fairly likely to yield my view of the game in favor of his, and I'd at least rather scum not have that sway over my brain :b.
Did you read Jack's readslist? Any parts of it you feel yourself strongly in disagreement with?
What do you think of the fact the people we have a read on this game are as different as they are?
Post by: Tea on June 02, 2017, 04:16:14 am
Did you read Jack's readslist? Any parts of it you feel yourself strongly in disagreement with?My main reaction to it was that I should reread flabort and that I'd flip 4mask and Persus but that I feel p similarly about most people. Hbu?
What do you think of the fact the people we have a read on this game are as different as they are?
I think who we're paying the most attention to seems to differ more than our actual reads. Fwiw I think flabort's/Persus's manner of pressing you is more scum indicative than doll's.
Post by: Pozzai on June 02, 2017, 04:31:41 am
Did you read Jack's readslist? Any parts of it you feel yourself strongly in disagreement with?My main reaction to it was that I should reread flabort and that I'd flip 4mask and Persus but that I feel p similarly about most people. Hbu?
What do you think of the fact the people we have a read on this game are as different as they are?
I think who we're paying the most attention to seems to differ more than our actual reads. Fwiw I think flabort's/Persus's manner of pressing you is more scum indicative than doll's.
Well I did mean reads overlapping (at all initially) seeing as we've tended to cross reads in at least multiballs of a certain size beforehand?
Persus was on my ISO list which I intended to do today at some point, but frankly only awake right now because I set my alarm to +3hours earlier so will have to wait till tonight, because Persus' reason for scumreading me felt very lazy, got a postnumber down for Flabort? I kinda felt like I had read one more at some point that irked me a bit, but couldn't find it when I quickly looked through earlier.
What do you think of TBF? Am I stuck in one of my "bad play > scum play" tunnelspirals?
Post by: Pozzai on June 02, 2017, 04:37:41 am
Post by: Tea on June 02, 2017, 04:42:29 am
flabort is seemingly the playstyle police incarnate with a soft/conciliatory spot for Tiurin is all I'm really getting.
drunk!Shakerag is surprisingly kind of a softie for all his talk about how aggro he is <_<.
Going to bed as now.
pedit- Good timing.
Post by: doll on June 02, 2017, 06:22:18 am
Now that Jack's posted his full reads list, and from the content supporting that, we're pretty well at the point where actual analysis starts.
This has been a rough game so far because:
1) RVS is always a pain
2) Most players on B12 fucking despise RVS
3) B12 has a very developed and somewhat incestuous default RVS metastyle
4) Lots of B12 vets are playing here with newer B12 players as well as yourself and the erstwhile absent tea for the first time
5) I have a large presence and a very strange, cruel, and intensive approach to RVS
6) Several players (particularly myself and Jack A T) have had their RVS game severely modified by contextual issues with this game itself (my role, the use of themes, etc.)
7) All of the players who act as stabilizing factors (Tiruin in particular, a few of the less active vets) are pretty inactive so you're mostly left with the grinding mass of assholes like myself and shakerag
Now that we're out of the early game slog it should get a lot less grueling, though we're still waiting heavily on further activity from 4maskwolf etc. who haven't really posted that much and from who more will be expected before they can likely be strongly read.
That said, I guess I'll develop a reads list now, though it's not going to be a justified reads list proper. Anyway:
Shakerag
1) I don't have anything fantastic here
2) It's super hard to move this town to a D1 conclusion on shakes, milk or otherwise
3) He actually slips as scum every now and then anyway so I'd never want to push through a D1 lynch unless he did
4) I actually kind of think he's town anyway
flabort
I might go for a deep gameplay analysis in a bit if nothing develops otherwise, else:
1) Contributed a lot to the early game
2) My only misgivings are really from their interactions with myself which, as I said, I'm finding hard to read this game
3) If they deliver a strong day-game for the rest of D1, probably town. Else, probably scum. That sounds vacuous, but consider that it is in the context of a strong daygame until the end of RVS (where they stopped really posting), so now we get to see if they are active lurking or town
TheDarkStar
has a weaker daygame than the above, but I like his interaction with me more
likely town
Lenglon
She's being useful.
I expect them to be more useful later on.
Town
Also, Lenglon, I'm actually your kohai
Tiruin
It's been said before, but exactly the same as my shakes read.
These are solid players with very established metagames. They have particular flaws in their play, which is probably the most defining traits they have; it's not surprising that outside of making the same mistakes they always do (Tiruin doesn't have a strong presence to control and create reads on their self, shakes engages in drunken shitposting and pursues things a lot more asymmetrically and intermittently than is optimal, etc.)
origamascienceguy
needs to post
TolyK
there's quicktopic context that I'm missing which I feel would add a lot here
so long as he continues to present a strong daygame in the thread, probably town
hector13
generally strong daygame
probably town, but I always say that so take my read with a grain of salt
FallacyOfUrist
Useless, active lurking, now inactive scum
Should spend less time writing bad short fiction and more in this game, because he's losing it
Persus13
hasn't posted much, but nothing objectionable about what I've seen so far
Jack A T
He's doing a lot of work
Regardless of his alignment, jack is a very useful player to have in the game
also, probably town. That's more, you know, statistics than a read at this point, though.
4maskwolf
Useful. Informative. Chasing up the daygame on his own initiative. Playing outside his scum meta.
Needs to keep his activity up.
Probably town.
TheBiggerFish
useless
doll
dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere dere
Tea
productive, useful and engaged
probably town
Pozzai
Not the best reactions or playstyle, but after some teasing out of what they meant very genuine.
Fairly engaged, productivity so far hampered a lot by the weight of people pushing on them and an unfamiliar RVS meta getting in the way
Probably town, should be easy to read after things settle into a more conventional pace
These reads are based on closed analysis of players posts, not on wholesome context, so keep that in mind before relying on them I guess.
TolyK
Is Jack town?
Jack
Are you particularly attached to your role?
Post by: doll on June 02, 2017, 06:26:25 am
Tiruin
It's been said before, but exactly the same as my shakes read.
These are solid players with very established metagames. They have particular flaws in their play, which is probably the most defining traits they have; it's not surprising that outside of making the same mistakes they always do (Tiruin doesn't have a strong presence to control and create reads on their self, shakes engages in drunken shitposting and pursues things a lot more asymmetrically and intermittently than is optimal, etc.) they have solid daygames which could easily be seen as either town or competent scum.
Post by: Persus13 on June 02, 2017, 07:43:55 am
Tea: I asked you a bunch of questions in my last large post and I don't think you ever answered them. Could you please do that?
I'll have a bigger post later, but I'm kind of dreading scumhunting through five pages of Pozzai and TBF's bickering, so I'm going to take a break first.
Post by: doll on June 02, 2017, 08:18:22 am
I'll have a bigger post later, but I'm kind of dreading scumhunting through five pages of Pozzai and TBF's bickering, so I'm going to take a break first.Does this mean that you don't see any scum outside of Pozzai and TBF?
Post by: Shakerag on June 02, 2017, 08:49:30 am
Shakerag: Is Shakerag in D1. Has claimed SK-miller: towntell (or at least not-mafia-tell). Very (PPE: very) (PPE x lots: very) shitposty, though did pursue TolyK a bit. Might still have a liver. Miller claim leaves him with a town lean.
Shakerag: Strong Shakerag. Mild town.Ok, I might need to update my sig after this game is over.
Tea:
drunk!Shakerag is surprisingly kind of a softie for all his talk about how aggro he is <_<.I said I was aggro? I remember stating that I'm an asshole. And that I shitpost. Not sure on the aggro part.
doll:
([...] shakes engages in drunken shitposting and pursues things a lot more asymmetrically and intermittently than is optimal, etc.)Is that your way of saying that I have the attention span of a walnut?
Post by: Persus13 on June 02, 2017, 08:52:24 am
I'm getting really mad at this game, and you're not helping. You seem to be confused by my usage of the term scumhunting. I've read through the last 24 hours of posts, but now I need to go through it again to get a post out. That's what I meant by scumhunting in my last post. The problem is that most of the content in the last 24 hours is those two arguing over split hairs, and that hasn't changed my opinions of them in the slightest, just made me annoyed that all the experienced players in this game are barely posting, making it more difficult to get reads on them.I'll have a bigger post later, but I'm kind of dreading scumhunting through five pages of Pozzai and TBF's bickering, so I'm going to take a break first.Does this mean that you don't see any scum outside of Pozzai and TBF?
Well, at least I can rely on your posts to crack me up for a bit. I'd love to hear who you think is scum though.Shakerag: Is Shakerag in D1. Has claimed SK-miller: towntell (or at least not-mafia-tell). Very (PPE: very) (PPE x lots: very) shitposty, though did pursue TolyK a bit. Might still have a liver. Miller claim leaves him with a town lean.Shakerag: Strong Shakerag. Mild town.Ok, I might need to update my sig after this game is over.
Tea:drunk!Shakerag is surprisingly kind of a softie for all his talk about how aggro he is <_<.I said I was aggro? I remember stating that I'm an asshole. And that I shitpost. Not sure on the aggro part.
doll:([...] shakes engages in drunken shitposting and pursues things a lot more asymmetrically and intermittently than is optimal, etc.)Is that your way of saying that I have the attention span of a walnut?
Post by: Lenglon on June 02, 2017, 09:07:07 am
Post by: Lenglon on June 02, 2017, 09:11:18 am
Post by: Persus13 on June 02, 2017, 09:33:41 am
Persus - could you expound on why you're mad at this game? you phrased it like the TBF/Pozzai interaction and low activity from experienced players were aggrivating the problem, but that the core issue was something else. What is that core issue?I like mafia games to be intelligent, fun, and enjoyable. This game has not been that at all so far, and I'm pretty sure Tea and TolyK would agree with that to some extent. Plus I'm frustrated playing the game, because I think I have good reads on the people who have posted a lot like you, TBF, and Pozzai, but others like OSG have barely posted anything noteworthy. 4maskwolf, Fallacy, TolyK, and flabort were fairly active early on, and none of them are posting now, which means that I can't improve my reads on them, and Tiruin, Jack, and Shakerag are being themselves, and are always difficult to read. I always get worried that the scum has managed to successfully avoid the spotlight of the game, but the player size of this game increases that possibility here. Finally, I'm frustrated with some real life stuff, and this game doesn't help against that the way I'd like it too.
Oh, and ISO roughly translates to using LurkerTracker on someone.Gotcha, thanks.
Post by: Shakerag on June 02, 2017, 10:05:15 am
Well, at least I can rely on your posts to crack me up for a bit. I'd love to hear who you think is scum though.Well, I'm a shit player so I got to have something to give.
As far as scum goes, I don't know, man. It's D1. Most of us are experienced enough to not do something totally scummy (at least on D1). Statistically speaking, we're going to lynch an oddball* townie on D1. Good scum analysis isn't going to start until D2, when we've all had a chance to fire off some abilities. If was absolutely forced to pick someone who was scum, I'd start looking at whoever is pushing for a Ponzi/Tea lynch, as they're the "newest" players here and most likely to violate one of our mafia mores unknowingly. Having said that, even looking at the players pushing for that lynch you're more likely (in my opinion) to hit a less-experienced but well-intentioned town. Good scum players should be undetectable on D1. Even not-so-good scum players are unlikely to wave a big red flag with "I'm scum" embroidered on it on D1.
So. This has kind of turned into an essay/analysis.
Anyway, looking back on my earlier scum playing days, I would try to look for something anyone did as "scummy" and push on it for a mislynch. I would assume that is what less-experienced scum would do now. And players who are not familiar with the bay12 playstyle are always easy targets to find something "scummy". (Nowadays I find the best strategy for myself to find scum is to mostly observe/question/pressure on D1 without necessarily pushing a lynch to get information for D2. One of these days It'll get me lynched for activelurking but such is life.)
[musing] It's also interesting to note that by observing and analyzing the "meta" one actively changes it. Because now if I say "best odds of finding scum D1 is look who is picking on the 'new' players" then future scum will actively try to avoid fitting that profile, so the analysis becomes invalid. So, from a personal perspective, it's best to keep good scumhunting tips to yourself. But that's kind of counterproductive to the community as a whole. [/musing]
*Oddball being defined as either someone "new" or some town moron trying to pull a gambit.
But for right now I've got to do some work and lay some brick, so I'll be back later.
Post by: webadict on June 02, 2017, 10:23:08 am
Post by: Persus13 on June 02, 2017, 10:24:24 am
Yo, wtf guys, one of the rules is to have fun! I will make your lives miserable until you start following that rule!The beatings will continue until the morale improves apparently.
Post by: Persus13 on June 02, 2017, 10:31:22 am
@Persus's most recent post: Even if I was scum, I'd still answer the question the same way. (and just because I answered it that way in P25 doesn't mean I'm scum now, because it's true regardless of alignment).Well that's a bunch of WIFOM then, okay. Do you remember a recent game you were town in you'd like to recommend?
@Persus's second-most-recent post:More like "I decided to go to sleep". I was actually about to follow up today, and then I saw your posts.
Pozzai: Explain why you are buddying Tea.
TBF
Pretty sure I said how I want his reads
If I kill Pozzai N1, who are you going to have content to pursue going into D2?
I might need to reread D1 to find content on D2, depending on what comes up.Why not do it now?
OSG:
Alright, Reading through the day now. I'll post reads on people as I finish with them.You promised a list of reads yesterday, but weren't able to deliver. I understand you're busy, but do you think you'll have a chance to post them today?
Pozzai:
I assumed you'd figure out from the context that I was referring to doll's point about your reads. Specifically this one:4 reads, yes. Have any changed? Doll has a point about you.What exactly is Doll's point about me? Why don't YOU expand on it?
4 reads is still more than most people in the game has given, why is it an issue I 'only' gave 4, why is it not more important that multiple people have given (next to) none?
And no, nothing major has changed in regards to this.
What do you think of fish asking for my reads, being told I had given some and has proceeded to do 0 with the information? No confrontation or discussion at all about the reads he was so interested in me giving?
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
I didn't expand on it because you're already responding fairly poorly to the pressure given to you by doll and TBF, which is understandable, given doll's idea of pressure, but at the same time wanted you to be aware that doll had a point. Lenglon did a much better job on this front.
Sure 4 reads is better than a lot of people, but its still only a quarter of the players in this game. And the four reads were of people like flabort, who hasn't posted as much as he did early game. So I'm sure you had more reads than just 4 by then. And later on, you did start posting them.
Also, what you did in this post with TBF is classic deflection. You should also notice I've stated previously that if I wasn't voting flabort I'd be voting TBF, explicitly attacking him for lack of follow-up.
Posting a full readslist shows you want to seem active, as you can't possibly have anything remotely strong in terms of opinions on anyone.The weaker reads still generate content, because a snap judgement on someone tells you a bit about the player making the read list. Are the strong reads important yes, but sometimes the weak ones give good content. What's wrong with wanting to be engaged and active? I'm fine with it if you don't like posting a full list of reads (because most of reads on OSG is going to be "he's barely posted") but you seem to be implying its a scumtell here.
It's way better to fixate on the stronger reads and make sure you let people know those than adding a bunch of sleb into a pile "just because"
Again, I answered them in terms of what they gave, had they asked "do you have any reads, I'd have pointed out where they were, demand shit, and you'll get responded to in equalYou keep using they, but most of these complaints in this post are directed solely at TBF, and your last line refers to FallacyofUrist, I think. If you look at the cases brought against you by TBF, doll, and Lenglon, you'll notice that they have different reasons for voting you. Lenglon's voting you over your supposed hypocritical reads stance, doll has a slightly broader case on you, and TBF's voting you for buddying. You're lumping people in the game into an indistinguishable "they" in this post and its really weird, since I don't think you're using it as a gender neutral pronoun here.
Their constant avoidance to actually give specifics as to where 'buddying' exists, their lack in interest in how the other person in the exchanges thought the exchange felt means he's just latching onto what's cool and popular.
They also asked me to go read up on other games, but have had no interest in reading up on mine or Tea's and used it to throw shade in my direction.
Persus was on my ISO list which I intended to do today at some point, but frankly only awake right now because I set my alarm to +3hours earlier so will have to wait till tonight, because Persus' reason for scumreading me felt very lazy, got a postnumber down for Flabort? I kinda felt like I had read one more at some point that irked me a bit, but couldn't find it when I quickly looked through earlier.Where did I say I thought you were scum?
Flabort:
2) I call them leads because it was the only moderately useful conversation topic that existed so far. Leads refers to anything that can spark conversation and lead to somebody voting over the topic of conversation. And they were unhelpful leads to me because I can't pull any useful evidence out of the WIFOM that they produce. However, they still produced some conversation which lead to other conversation producing more leads to follow, even if some of these leads are still tangled in WIFOM.Have you been able to find more helpful leads now? When do you plan on using your vote again?
This, basically.Unvote I feel TBF has fulfilled what I was pressuring him into.
Is that an actual townread, or just a "well at least they entered the game"?
If the latter why not place your vote on a new spot you want to pressure?
If the first, can you walk me through that townread?
Shakerag:
Persus13:I'm pretty sure NQT or someone did an analysis awhile back and found this was surprisingly not true. I'll need to go dig that up to be sure. Otherwise i like this post. HUnting those trying to push lynches of town was my go-to strategy for awhile.
As far as scum goes, I don't know, man. It's D1. Most of us are experienced enough to not do something totally scummy (at least on D1). Statistically speaking, we're going to lynch an oddball* townie on D1. Good scum analysis isn't going to start until D2, when we've all had a chance to fire off some abilities.
Tea:
This interaction is another reason I don't like Fallacy. It starts off with some more stream of consciousness that I find forced, and then Fallacy forgot how he framed the initial question by the time it was answered.What makes you say that Fallacy forgot how he framed the question? I've been trying to see where you see it, but I can't.
Post by: TheBiggerFish on June 02, 2017, 10:50:02 am
@Persus again: The context of D1 is different on D2. Thus, rereading it now doesn't help me.
Post by: Lenglon on June 02, 2017, 11:08:44 am
Changing locations tomorrow and I dont want to have a vote stuck floating at day end if im not able to post again until D2 due to lack of signal. Ill also be PMing web my contingency N1 action for the same circumstance. I do not at this time have a strong enough scumread on anyone to be willing to leave a indefinite lynch vote against them.
Hopefully this prep is unnecessary, and ill be posting tomorrow, though since I have a 7 hour shift and a 12 hour one both tomorrow I might have trouble posting more than a !got signal! post.
even in a worst case scenario ill be back on the 16th, and the 12th is a much more likely worst case than that. as such, I dont want to replace out over a 'maybe'.
Post by: FallacyofUrist on June 02, 2017, 11:09:20 am
Me: Town, for sure.
hector13, Jack A T, 4maskwolf: Town. Scumhunting!
doll: Townier than before. She's actually scum hunting now, so that's a plus. A similar level applies to several less active hunters, Lenglon, Tiruin, Persus, possibly Pozzai, Tea, and flabort, who I haven't looked into enough. Maybe Fish. He looks to be attempting scum hunting.
Origamiscienceguy, Shakerag, TheDarkStar: Neutral. They kinda need to post more.
TolyK. I'm not exactly sure what's going on with him. Possible third party.
Wow, there are a lot of people in this game. I'm losing track. Also makes it hard to develop reads on everybody.
Post by: Lenglon on June 02, 2017, 11:39:14 am
Post by: Tea on June 02, 2017, 01:10:27 pm
Tea:Ohh, when trying to doctor the quote for context I quoted the wrong question, but it is in the same post:This interaction is another reason I don't like Fallacy. It starts off with some more stream of consciousness that I find forced, and then Fallacy forgot how he framed the initial question by the time it was answered.What makes you say that Fallacy forgot how he framed the question? I've been trying to see where you see it, but I can't.
"TolyK: If you were actually a cult leader, how would you go about convincing me you weren't the cult leader and getting my vote off you?" (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164260.msg7470759#msg7470759)
Also, uh, I guess I shut my laptop too quickly after hitting the post button on my response to your earlier post given that I can't find it in the thread. Ugh.
Post by: NJW2000 on June 02, 2017, 01:20:50 pm
Post by: Tea on June 02, 2017, 01:55:05 pm
Sorry for this monstrosity, it took me at least an hour to write this.I feel like you lost track of his/my conversation (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164260.msg7470455#msg7470455) with your first question here. As I think I've made clear I have been very unhappy about the extent to which the "long dialogue" has STILL BEEN ABOUT my reaction to his vote+subsequent question of me (which is less true upon my 2nd writing of this post at least). I don't think the fact that I feel discomfort with Jack's play around this is very meaningful for his alignment - I doubt I would be talking about it if I wasn't asked to.
Tea:It's not a particular vote that makes me uncomfortable. (And to be clear, what I meant by your vote being because of the wall was that I think by taking a wide net interactional approach, that made it more likely that you would vote me and talk to me about it. Although I do believe you that you were more likely to double up votes anyway based on your response.) I'm uncomfortable because I feel like the continual milking of reactions to this hella artificial thing diverts attention from things more likely to make the thread understand me and vice-versa.What's artificial about Jack A T's first post. This is pretty normal behavior for Jack and since he's engaging you in a long dialouge, it seems to have worked. Does it feel off i na scummy way, or in a "Im not used to this" kind of way?
What causes you to doubt his word here? More importantly, why does this matter at all if Jack had some preconceived ideas about what to ask people pre-game?I'll get into this when I respond to Jack's questions in the post where he confirms his vote on me.
I expanded upon it starting in the 3rd paragraph of this post (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164260.msg7471276#msg7471276). I think in general spending lots of time asking things that are unlikely to yield alignment indicative info is active lurking/more trying to look helpful than anything and thus a scumtell. But that behavior IMO was prevalent to the point that it was clearly to some extent a feature of site meta more than something that useful to look at as an individual tell.Way more people are focusing on these things than would be non-town in a standard game.Are the people non-town, or are the things non-town? Can you explain your first sentence quoted a bit more?
My first point is what I was most interested in feedback on - so you could say it's "most important" to me in that sense, although the organization of this post is p stream of conscious-y. Scum, both by nature of being informed and a minority (latter being more relevant for 3Ps), have more reason in general to think of the game in a long-term manner - how to position themselves through the day game to make it deep into the game. I think a more town mindset is "what can I do right now to advance my understanding of the game?" - doing what you can while you're here and who knows if you'll make it through the night - which has been fairly absent in FoU's posts, IMO. "Underprepared" sounds like it could have a more coded meaning than I'm aware of, but from what I can tell I think not prioritizing getting reads and thus being underprepared is a scumtell, so.FallacyofUrist is, uh. Thinking about the game like someone who expects to be around for a long time, for whatever reason? Which is probably a better tell in a standard game than here but I don't quite follow why he's directing effort toward the things that he's directing them to, or why he thinks he's getting ~nothing out of Shakerag but isn't ranking Shakerag in a similar category to doll/TheBiggerFIsh.What's wrong with thinking long term? Why would FofU be expecting to die soon? More importantly, why does that make him scum as opposed to unprepared town? I understand you're suspicious of him for more reasons than that, but you put this one first, which implies its the most important.
Post by: TolyK on June 02, 2017, 02:36:58 pm
Not only mine, apparently. See below.Well, this has suddenly gone downhill, hasn't it.IN YOUR EYES MAYBE @_@
Quote from: Tiruin
I've kinda answered this, but again:Alright, alright, I got it.TolyK: Thoughts of the game and people's posts in general?
My reasoning was to claim a part of my role. The reason w** I did that? To form a bit of trust, mostly to slightly increase the likelyhood that Jack would accept. I intend to give more information to Jack personally, as part of the experiment thingie. Other than this, I'm not currently giving out more information. Take what you will.
Also, you're doing this to Jack--in public--with little idea of how he thinks.
Why do you want to form trust with Jack, specifically?
- I feel like Jack is the least readable.
- Jack is fairly active, and I can count on him remaining fairly active judging by past games.
- He's fun to play with on a "team", judging from my past experiences. (That's partially why he's scary, too :D)
- Pre-post edit: also, he has a sort of on-the-point humor I enjoy.
See end of post for results.
Shakerag:
<jokes and literally "dunno"s for EVERY FUCKING PLAYER>Basically the only relevant crap Shakerag's posted. I get you're in a post-life crisis, and day 1 is usually a bunch of crap voting (for other crap), but actually you're right, it's a clusterfuck. :D Still, it's possible to get reads on people, even if they're mostly "seems towny".
TolyK - Still untrustworthy since KYOSN.
Pozzai - Also dunno, but since ponzi is new to bay12, is likely going to get ganed up on. Scum is likely going to try to push a lynch on this dude.
PPE: Oh, wow, relevant stuff!
As far as scum goes, I don't know, man. It's D1. Most of us are experienced enough to not do something totally scummy (at least on D1). Statistically speaking, we're going to lynch an oddball* townie on D1. Good scum analysis isn't going to start until D2, when we've all had a chance to fire off some abilities. If was absolutely forced to pick someone who was scum, I'd start looking at whoever is pushing for a Ponzi/Tea lynch, as they're the "newest" players here and most likely to violate one of our mafia mores unknowingly. Having said that, even looking at the players pushing for that lynch you're more likely (in my opinion) to hit a less-experienced but well-intentioned town. Good scum players should be undetectable on D1. Even not-so-good scum players are unlikely to wave a big red flag with "I'm scum" embroidered on it on D1.So... as a tl;dr: Day 1 doesn't really matter.
So. This has kind of turned into an essay/analysis.
Anyway, looking back on my earlier scum playing days, I would try to look for something anyone did as "scummy" and push on it for a mislynch. I would assume that is what less-experienced scum would do now. And players who are not familiar with the bay12 playstyle are always easy targets to find something "scummy". (Nowadays I find the best strategy for myself to find scum is to mostly observe/question/pressure on D1 without necessarily pushing a lynch to get information for D2. One of these days It'll get me lynched for activelurking but such is life.)
*stuff about how measuring a system changes its properties*
So... Who do you think we should lynch, if scum isn't obvious D1?
Jack A T:
ReadsI'm actually annoyed that FoU stopped questioning me. I gave a fairly weak response (in retrospect), yet he's seemed to have backed off.
...
FallacyofUrist: Hasn't left RVS yet, aside from a little bit of TolyK examination. Wary neutral.
Quote from: Jack A T
Tea: See my last post. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164260.msg7472380#msg7472380)Can I point out a few flaws? I think I can. Here we go:
- Bandwagons on one's self is different from a bandwagon on someone else: you know your own alignment (let's say, Town), but not "someone else's", so naturally you would feel it's unjustified because you have exact prior information.
- You're voting Tea because she is questioning the effectiveness of how you're trying to get information? Or did I miss something?
doll:
Pozzai:Can I just say that this is spot-on and pretty funny? Yeah, I'll say it. Now onto nitpicking reads...
7) All of the players who act as stabilizing factors (Tiruin in particular, a few of the less active vets) are pretty inactive so you're mostly left with the grinding mass of assholes like myself and shakerag
Quote from: doll
Shakerag ... 4) I actually kind of think he's town anywayWhat makes you think he's town?
Quote from: doll
flabort I might go for a deep gameplay analysis in a bit if nothing develops otherwise, else: 1) Contributed a lot to the early game ...I'd like to challenge this statement: what exactly has he done in the early game? All I can remember is RVS stuff and complaining a bit... right?
Quote from: doll
TolyKSee: end of this post.
there's quicktopic context that I'm missing which I feel would add a lot here
so long as he continues to present a strong daygame in the thread, probably town
Quote from: doll
FallacyOfUrist... what?
Useless, active lurking, now inactive scum
Should spend less time writing bad short fiction and more in this game, because he's losing it
Quote from: doll
TolyKSee: end of this post. Short answer is ... likely yes?
Is Jack town?
Persus:
To some extent, yes. It's been mostly players engaged in conversations based on misunderstanding + huge posts that are tiresome to read through... Though, as Shakerag has noted (above), that's pretty par for the course on Day 1 - hard to get insights. In machine learning and related fields, this amounts to a "burn-in period"...Persus - could you expound on why you're mad at this game? you phrased it like the TBF/Pozzai interaction and low activity from experienced players were aggrivating the problem, but that the core issue was something else. What is that core issue?I like mafia games to be intelligent, fun, and enjoyable. This game has not been that at all so far, and I'm pretty sure Tea and TolyK would agree with that to some extent.
Quote from: Persus
Plus I'm frustrated playing the game, because I think I have good reads on the people who have posted a lot like you, TBF, and Pozzai, but others like OSG have barely posted anything noteworthy. 4maskwolf, Fallacy, TolyK, and flabort were fairly active early on, and none of them are posting now, which means that I can't improve my reads on them, and Tiruin, Jack, and Shakerag are being themselves, and are always difficult to read. I always get worried that the scum has managed to successfully avoid the spotlight of the game, but the player size of this game increases that possibility here. Finally, I'm frustrated with some real life stuff, and this game doesn't help against that the way I'd like it too.Sorry to hear about real life stuff, hope that goes well for you in the end.
I've been on and off mostly because I needed to sleep a lot. And during yesterday I was PFP.
About player size... I wouldn't worry all that much, at least not yet. If you have strong reads on several people, and they're not all strong-town, then it might mke sense to focus on them. I personally don't expect to keep everything in my head about all players...
FoU:
TolyK. I'm not exactly sure what's going on with him. Possible third party.I said above in this post that I'm actually kind of annoyed at you not pushing this. And here you are, saying everyone is null or town-ish except me, who is third party-y. Why are you not engaging me or at least asking questions, if I'm the only one acting strange?
Hopefully this post gives enough material, eh? :P
Re: Experiment:
So, I made a chat thingie with Jack. Unfortunately, it turns out that the experiment I planned won't work out with him, so that's called off for a bit.
We did divulge some information to each other, though, and at least on my end it seems to check out.
This is what Jack told me in the chatty chat. He told me more, obviously, but that'll do for now. Of course, if he's lying he's just being consistent, but...Also, if you had the thought of mentioning your role/abilityI have yet to determine my all-powerful true name. I have considered hinting at part of my convoluted role name, though. I will say this in public for now: I'm a modified version of WWI's worst rifle. The time is neither strategically right nor comedically well timed for a name reveal. Are you satisfied with this response?/truename--which may happen while reading this sentence--would you mention it in public?
He feels like he's being honest at least about his role, which he has partially revealed, and it's consistent with that I've expected of this game.
To continue the experiment, though... is there anyone who thinks they have a useless day action? I.e. one they'd think about not using?
Post by: hector13 on June 02, 2017, 03:57:22 pm
Bugger it, I have 15 pages to read, you guys'll get what you get. Going through it from... here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164260.msg7471295#msg7471295), arbitrarily chosen.
Probably another wall, byraway. Some people may have multiple sections since I find it likely I won't be bothered to go back and edit things later.
PPE: spoilered larger sections, 'cause this got out of hand quickly.
PPE2: how the fu- you guys posted 9 pages since yesterday!?
TBF
EBWOPI'm not being lazy, I'm trying to sort out a lease. Also this thread is moving fast enough I'm having trouble keeping up with it sometimes, geez.
You know, I can't tell who's being the lazier one. TheBiggerFish or Pozzai. If I had two votes they would both be used for pressure votes now.
That said: hector:What was that post supposed to mean?
Pozzai:Why haven't you read anything else on this forum? Have you not even read the pinned threads (in this subforum)?
More later.
I think something about pre-empting my thoughts on matters, because I don't want to be accused of parroting, totes, or I was trying to make it look like I was being funny in an effort to not make it look like I didn't want to be accused of parroting, and the funny part just took over.
Nah, I just don't like it when people ninja what I want to say.
I might need to reread D1 to find content on D2, depending on what comes up.
Er... you will need to reread D1 to find content on D2, and likely D1 and D2 for D3 etc.
This is something you should be in the habit of doing :P
@Tiruin: I'm most suspicious of Pozzai. Refusing to engage and clinging to Tea just kind of make me think 'scum'.
I don't quite understand what you mean by that question. Yes, I' ve seen people commenting on my actions? Lenglon specifically, most recently.
Because I have something to actually pursue.
Pozzai:I wouldn't say it's that you are interacting with someone you know, it's that you appeared to be only interacting with the person you know. That said, you've stopped doing it, so Unvote.
Whoa there, Nelly.
You start this off with "Pozzai is most suspicious" and end it with "not suspicious enough to vote, however".
Can you talk me through this? Do you think Pozzai is interacting with these people actively - seeking out the interaction - or passively - reacting to something?
FoU
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Pozzai
May've been addressed already, but:
I haven't shared them(well kind of have in some interactions) and I wont, because it breaks the purpose.
If I say "I did this and that because I hope to get these results" I murk the waters for the results I get.
There's no point in giving people an exact blueprint of what you're doing/intending to do.
*cough cough*
If scum!4mask, might be informative if their arguments feels reachy or contrived.
So... you're willing to let scum know a little bit about how to hide themselves from you, but you're unwilling to let town know how to show themselves to you?
You also seem to be awfully interested in other players reads of those that are voting you:
flabort on TBF (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164260.msg7472176#msg7472176)
Lenglon on TBF's suspicion (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164260.msg7472229#msg7472229)
Lenglon on TBF in general (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164260.msg7472395#msg7472395)
Almost as though you're trying to deflect attention (votes?) onto a person that can easily be made to look scummier than you.
What do you think of TBF?
It seems from your reads (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164260.msg7472490#msg7472490) that you have a much stronger case against both TBF and doll (in the sense that nobody is going to vote with you based on meta) than you do for the person you're voting for at this point, which is Tea. Why are you voting for Tea here, and not TBF or doll? (vote count at the time (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164260.msg7472416#msg7472416))
Tolyk
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Persus
Reply to this (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164260.msg7471748#msg7471748), that I can't be bothered quoting and editing:
Fair enough. Much better post, though lol at only spending an hour on a WoT :P
Still a bit iffy about you bringing up the hammers, 'cause it was D1 and as Tolyk pointed out, 9 voted are required to hammer at this point. Seems like an awful lot of votes to be worried about.
OSG
origamiscienceguyanybody but me
You're a mildly active, semi-competant mafia player.
That usually makes you real easy to read, and so not a real threat nor a real liability.
Who should I kill tonight and why?
Other than that, I don't know. I haven't read people yet. I'll get back to you on that.
obvscum, only interested in your own survival. Maybe TP. Well... probably more TP than scum, to be fair.
OragamiScienceTo me, none of it is emotional. I don't put any emotion into my game. I put a lot of critical thinking into it though. And it is always all BS. None of what you critically thunk is ever correct, especially in a closed, chaotic game like this.
How much of Mafia is emotional, how much is critical thinking, and how much is BS?
but i love you senpai
Do you not count gut feelings as emotional? What would you say does count as emotional?
I mean this literally isn't important at all in the context of the game, I'm just curious and willing to piss off everyone else by starting a tangential conversation in the game :P
Jack AT
Tiruin: Tiruin.
haaaaaaaaaaaaa I like that.
hector13: Interesting first post, with a serious early vote for Persus. Won't be active again for a bit, though. I look forward to his next post. Null for lack of extended content.
Whoa-ho-hooo there, just to be clear, that was not a serious vote. It was my first post, man.
I guess I should be pleased that I can make a crappy RVS pressure vote look super srs..?
I need someone who has played with TBF before to give an opinion on this, especially the bolded section:
@Tiruin: Because if I was scum in that sort of environment I'd probably do the exact same thing, that is, cling to a town buddy that I know.
I don't know why he interacted with you, other than I guess that you, you know, asked him questions. I do know that it was a departure from what I saw as a pattern of mostly refusing to interact.
@Pozzai: Saying "Kai is like Shakerag is like Kai" isn't helpful either. Yes, you've given some differentiation, I guess, but it's not exactly going to help us understand your understanding of Shakerag.
@Pozzai: I believe you're missing something called 'context'. The feeling that your interaction was weird predated the pressure on you, as far as I know (and as far as you've said), and my later clarification that it felt like buddying was pretty much why I thought it was weird. I just wasn't in any state to articulate that the first time I posted.
How come I haven't posted my own reads: First off, a lot of them are null. Second off, I've already made my suspicions clear. Basically, the only thing I've got is a slight scumlean on you, right now. Everyone else I haven't really had much interaction with or observation of to build a decent idea.
Also, why the heck are you referring to yourself in the third person in that readlist? Strikes me as a cheap rhetorical trick...
...No, I "threw shade" on you for not reading the stickied threads, not past games. The stickied threads aren't past games (mostly). Jack A T told you that, even. So why do you misrepresent me like that?
Pozzai: How confident are you in your meta read of Tea?
Tea: What do you think of Pozzai's read on you?
Also Tea:Who is Kalas?
FoU
Doll asked for a reads list a while ago. Activity's going to be sparse for today and Saturday(and none at Sunday)(blame my horrible time management skills), but I think I have the time to provide that.
Me: Town, for sure.
hector13, Jack A T, 4maskwolf: Town. Scumhunting!
doll: Townier than before. She's actually scum hunting now, so that's a plus. A similar level applies to several less active hunters, Lenglon, Tiruin, Persus, possibly Pozzai, Tea, and flabort, who I haven't looked into enough. Maybe Fish. He looks to be attempting scum hunting.
Origamiscienceguy, Shakerag, TheDarkStar: Neutral. They kinda need to post more.
TolyK. I'm not exactly sure what's going on with him. Possible third party.
Wow, there are a lot of people in this game. I'm losing track. Also makes it hard to develop reads on everybody.
How is Lenglon less active than 4mask?
Why do you have OSG, TDS, and Shakes as folk who need to post more and thus neutral, and not the "several less active hunters" as in the above line?
Tired. Will hopefully post tomorrow, 'cause god damn that was a lot.
Post by: origamiscienceguy on June 02, 2017, 07:33:30 pm
Post by: TheBiggerFish on June 02, 2017, 07:48:42 pm
Post by: doll on June 02, 2017, 09:14:47 pm
TheBiggerFish: three+ people are getting killed. One of these three is decided by the lynch and two are decided by me.TBF
Pretty sure I said how I want his reads
If I kill Pozzai N1, who are you going to have content to pursue going into D2?I might need to reread D1 to find content on D2, depending on what comes up.Why not do it now?
Therefore, I need data on at least three players painting them as suspicious. You're pushing on, at most, two players. In the absence of more to go on I'll kill inactive or useless players, the same as a lynch would. This is bad, because those players aren't necessarily scummy.
As distasteful as it is to say 'go scumhunt more', you should go scumhunt more.
Shakerag:Persus13:I'm pretty sure NQT or someone did an analysis awhile back and found this was surprisingly not true. I'll need to go dig that up to be sure. Otherwise i like this post. HUnting those trying to push lynches of town was my go-to strategy for awhile.
As far as scum goes, I don't know, man. It's D1. Most of us are experienced enough to not do something totally scummy (at least on D1). Statistically speaking, we're going to lynch an oddball* townie on D1. Good scum analysis isn't going to start until D2, when we've all had a chance to fire off some abilities.
As my vacation calmed down, I decided to look into something I'd been considering looking into for some time: D1 lynch effectiveness.
It is common knowledge that D1 lynches are almost always against inexperienced townies. We expect mislynches D1. We've spoken for years of how we almost always mislynch D1, and the consistency of our town lynches has been a major motivator of years of efforts to change how we play D1 (and, in fact, in general). Everyone knows most D1 lynches are against townies, and we handle D1 accordingly.
There's just one problem with the common belief: it's wrong. In non-BMs, we usually lynch non-town D1. In the past 4 board pages of non-BM games (about 1 and a half to 2 years of games), we have lynched some sort of non-town D1 56% of the time. Even omitting BYOR 13, where a scum lynch was forced where a town lynch would likely have occurred, and my BYOR, where my failure to give public wincons led to the lynch, it's 52%.
See the results of my search here (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1EMKCL79nA4paVqGxMW8_QhDK7DqDgfCod8iVuU9BCuM/edit?usp=sharing). I used all non-BMs (we already know BMs actually do almost always start with a mislynch (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=134925.msg6150633#msg6150633)) in the past 4 pages that completed D1, aside from the King/Prince of the Mafia games, non-Mafia games, games with a non-lynch-based D1 voting system (Orbfalls and Worse Things), Mini Mafia Madness (sorry, not untangling that, and I can't even figure out what the alignments are), and the Guardians (a rare bastard mod where the mod was lynched).
@Persus again: The context of D1 is different on D2. Thus, rereading it now doesn't help me.Re-reading D1 now does help you, precisely because the context of D1 is different now to what it will be in the future. That is why it is helpful to read parts of D1 again on D1 and on D2 and on D3 etc.
Doll asked for a reads list a while ago. Activity's going to be sparse for today and Saturday(and none at Sunday)(blame my horrible time management skills), but I think I have the time to provide that.So this is a perfect scumtell and I'm 320% happier with a FoU lynch now.
Me: Town, for sure.
hector13, Jack A T, 4maskwolf: Town. Scumhunting!
doll: Townier than before. She's actually scum hunting now, so that's a plus. A similar level applies to several less active hunters, Lenglon, Tiruin, Persus, possibly Pozzai, Tea, and flabort, who I haven't looked into enough. Maybe Fish. He looks to be attempting scum hunting.
Origamiscienceguy, Shakerag, TheDarkStar: Neutral. They kinda need to post more.
TolyK. I'm not exactly sure what's going on with him. Possible third party.
Wow, there are a lot of people in this game. I'm losing track. Also makes it hard to develop reads on everybody.
Consider:
1) FoU has limited time to play the game
2) FoU has a number of very weak, and some unusual reads, including on active players like TolyK in particular
FoU
3) In their limited time, FoU did not pursue a single lead towards getting more information on these reads
This suggests to me that FoU does not care particularly about knowing more about the game or player's alignments, and does care about responding to pressure.
Unfortunately for FoU, I don't want to lynch people who don't answer my questions, I want to lynch people who I think are scum i.e. who I don't see has scumhunting.
For a parallel case, consider my case on scum!4maskwolf in the recent BM.
Because I don't think he's not town.Quote from: dollShakerag ... 4) I actually kind of think he's town anywayWhat makes you think he's town?
Shakes is playing to his town meta, and he hasn't deviated from my expectations.
He's providing information unbidden, rather than in response to pressure.
It's not a strong read, but it is a town read.
I've actually had a gut feeling that flabort is scum this whole game, and it comes back every time I read over other players interacting with him.Quote from: dollflabort I might go for a deep gameplay analysis in a bit if nothing develops otherwise, else: 1) Contributed a lot to the early game ...I'd like to challenge this statement: what exactly has he done in the early game? All I can remember is RVS stuff and complaining a bit... right?
However, when I read flabort's early game content I saw high-quality RVS stuff in RVS, and then he sort of trailed off.
Like I said, his towniness is dependent on his continuing what had the makings of a strong daygame; trailing off on the strength of his RVS is an easy direction to see scum!flabort as going in.
I checked everyone's posts when I was making that reads list.Quote from: dollFallacyOfUrist... what?
Useless, active lurking, now inactive scum
Should spend less time writing bad short fiction and more in this game, because he's losing it
FoU's activity suddenly cuts off, but the most recent post was some 5000+ word short story in a random thread with nothing to do with mafia.
It wasn't a good short story either, but I guess I'd have been more suspicious if it was and he still didn't have time for us?
Anyway, it's a throwaway joke/bullying. FoU is 'losing' this game because he's going to get killed (by the lynch or me) and that's counter to his team's interests.
Yeah unfortunately Jack is pretty solid and I haven't really been able to read into him more than you and possibly less dependent on what you got from the tonality of his QT posts.Quote from: dollTolyKSee: end of this post. Short answer is ... likely yes?
Is Jack town?
FoU:Pushing this, rather than posting the readslist, would have been the obvious thing to do as town.TolyK. I'm not exactly sure what's going on with him. Possible third party.I said above in this post that I'm actually kind of annoyed at you not pushing this. And here you are, saying everyone is null or town-ish except me, who is third party-y. Why are you not engaging me or at least asking questions, if I'm the only one acting strange?
Hopefully this post gives enough material, eh? :P
Post by: FallacyofUrist on June 02, 2017, 10:05:37 pm
Post by: Lenglon on June 02, 2017, 11:00:23 pm
Post by: webadict on June 02, 2017, 11:04:41 pm
Lenglon and Shakerag have been fused!
The game mode has been changed to Survival! The Mafiakill does not count toward the 1 action per Phase limit.
Vote Count
------------------------
4maskwolf -
doll -
FallacyOfUrist - Tea, doll, hector13,
flabort - Persus13,
hector13 -
Jack A T -
Lenglon-Shakerag - 4maskwolf, Shakerag,
origamascienceguy -
Persus13 -
Pozzai -
Tea - Pozzai, Jack A T,
TheBiggerFish - Tiruin, TheDarkStar,
TheDarkStar -
Tiruin -
TolyK - FallacyOfUrist,
No Lynch -
Not Voting - origamascienceguy, TolyK, flabort, TheBiggerFish, Lenglon,
9 To Hammer. Day Ends on Monday, June 5th at 8:00 PM CST. There is an Extension available.
Quote
Survival - The Mafiakill does not count toward the 1 action per Phase limit.
Post by: doll on June 02, 2017, 11:21:19 pm
Also ironic, because a lot of people are not going to survive.
Webadict-san
If the day is extended, can more day actions be taken?
Post by: doll on June 02, 2017, 11:23:32 pm
Do you have any insight into the alignment of the player you fuse with?
Post by: webadict on June 02, 2017, 11:24:11 pm
Webadict-sanYes, but only once.
If the day is extended, can more day actions be taken?
Post by: TheBiggerFish on June 02, 2017, 11:24:25 pm
Post by: Lenglon on June 02, 2017, 11:33:08 pm
Post by: TheBiggerFish on June 02, 2017, 11:35:06 pm
Well this gamemode is lucky, because I don't need to worry about giving mafia the ability to take another night action as well as the mafiakill....What.
Post by: TheBiggerFish on June 02, 2017, 11:39:10 pm
...If you somehow survive the night, explain that.Well this gamemode is lucky, because I don't need to worry about giving mafia the ability to take another night action as well as the mafiakill....What.
Post by: Lenglon on June 02, 2017, 11:58:35 pm
Post by: Lenglon on June 03, 2017, 12:01:28 am
Post by: doll on June 03, 2017, 12:10:20 am
Why don't you read the thread and stay up to date, eh?...If you somehow survive the night, explain that.Well this gamemode is lucky, because I don't need to worry about giving mafia the ability to take another night action as well as the mafiakill....What.
This is why no-one likes you, nano.
Here is my fullclaim:Spoiler: kore wa fullclaim des (click to show/hide)
hakase
When actioning lenglon or shakerag or lenglon-shakerag, how should we annotate the action in our PM to you?
Post by: webadict on June 03, 2017, 12:16:30 am
When actioning lenglon or shakerag or lenglon-shakerag, how should we annotate the action in our PM to you?Currently, they are the same player. They do, however, still have separate votes.
You may target one of the other. Or come up with a creative portmanteau of their names. Personally, I'm fond of Lakelon.
Post by: Lenglon on June 03, 2017, 12:31:06 am
Post by: TheBiggerFish on June 03, 2017, 12:45:40 am
Post by: Tea on June 03, 2017, 01:13:21 am
Yes, thank you.I described it as milking because you did multiple things before I ever posted to frame my relationship to the thread around the wagon on me and nothing else - voting me, asking for an immediate reaction to the wagon, and then talking to Lenglon about his vote on me. This has more or less continued since (e.g. the question to Persus and your responses to me). It's also been my previous experience here that people will for some reason sort of shrug at the actual posts I make (maybe due to formatting?) and hyper-focus on anything that has to do with votes.Tea: Alright, I think I understand your position here. You are uncomfortable not so much with the vote as with my treatment of this as a noteworthy event, one that generates reactions worth looking at.
Treatment, I will say, that was more successful here at generating worthwhile interactions than in any of my prior games....If that's the case then I feel bad for you? :@
What's interesting here is your highlighting of the question to Persus as part of the milking. Let's look back at it (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164260.msg7470722#msg7470722) for a moment. It is quite clear from the context that Persus was reacting to the wagon (as he confirmed (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164260.msg7470735#msg7470735)). Do you believe his reaction was not worth examining?I don't mind that you asked him about his reaction in and of itself, especially since your questions surrounding that went beyond the kinda eye-roll-inducing "hey bro u knowingly aligned with Tea?". As I said, that just about everything you asked about w/r/t me and about me continued to revolve around the ~the wagon~ was my specific issue.
Also, a quick question: had the RVS wagon been on TolyK instead of you, would you be similarly uncomfortable?
I can't say I've encountered this exact situation previously so I'm unsure - I think I would be bugged by it intellectually but not have the same emotional reaction bc I'd feel like I could address it on my own terms?
Spoiler: Jack & Persus on the nature of my questions to Jack (click to show/hide)
I feel like the sentiment that ~it sounds like you're cross-examining more than asking open-ended questions~ is true in that I'm at times trying to be clear about what I think is most likely with an implicit "correct me if I'm wrong."
It's not true that I asked "Was your wall of questions written in the order that you posted it in?" with the expectation that the answer was yes. The apparent organization of the post appeared to be {doll, 4maskwolf} since their stuff was relevant to your claim, and then {the order of the playerlist}. For all I knew you left that skeleton the same and then, like, immediately thought "I'm gonna not ask Fish anything." If there was a particular thing I hoped to get out of that question, it was actually an explanation for the obvious tonal shift between {Tiruin and OSG's questions}, since that was the most interesting part of the whole wall for me, and wasn't something I really figured out how to ask about subtly. I'm vaguely familiar with them both and it was more understandable to me why you'd ask Tiruin something fluffy than OSG, so I was wondering if I could get in your head regarding that - and I wouldn't say I really got anything meaningful from what you eventually said on the matter. But I also kinda hoped that if you were town you'd just say something that seems too surprising/deep to fake?
When you responded to that question, I did find it interesting that you brought up where you placed Pozzai but not TBF/me since there was already in-thread content by/about us, and was like wait what is there more to that (esp since the rest of your answer was, uh, boring)?
At this point what my thought process for with the pregame question is a bit fuzzy? My general attitude about it is I guess:
- The way you claimed initially really sounded to me like (1) you were telling the truth (2) that your theme wasn't present in your role PM regardless of your alignment and (3) that you were specifically trying to use it as a reaction test, which made me, uh, CONFUSED by some of the directions of the skepticism i saw being expressed. Although I don't know if I have non-feels reasons for any of that. well for (2) I feel like there would have been more pause with how you went about it ++ your questions to webadict would've played out differently
- I felt like it would be town indicative if you had come up with it on the fly bc ... eh, for one thing if it doesn't have to do with your role it potentially comes off rolefishy for not that much forseeable benefit that I can see, and also because it's just p creative for scum
- but I also felt like it was more likely that you thought about it while waiting for the game to get rolled esp since you posted so many words so fast
- so it was kinda like a damn I wish that meant more than it actually seems to, I mean if you can convince me that you did think of it on the fly then cool but I'm not entirely sure how you would or what exactly to ask
uhhhhhh. yeah? I dunno. A lot of what I got out of my questions is that I feel like I was trying too hard to force a read on one person from one post and that I needed to focus on other things to actually anchor myself to the game.
I wooooooould like to know while I have your attention more about your opinion of Fallacy. You mentioned that his TolyK push is the main thing he's done - what's your assessment of that push?
In other news I find it vaguely weird how much people seem to be soft-defending me ITT lately but not really talking to me.
Remind me to say something re: hector's post after Pozzai posts.
Post by: doll on June 03, 2017, 01:36:47 am
In other news I find it vaguely weird how much people seem to be soft-defending me ITT lately but not really talking to me.Something I've wanted to say and this provides a good opportunity to:
It is (relatively) easy to find out that someone is town by talking to them and asking them questions.
It is hard to find out that someone is scum by talking to them. This is because:
It is easy to find out that someone is scum by watching them. Asking questions clouds your judgment a lot because they usually have a decent, alignment-neutral reason for answering you' nobody wants the lynch sitting on them. The indicator that someone is scum is that they don't ask questions because they already know who is town, or at least who is not scum.
I am happy with the play of certain individuals, Tea and Lenglon being particular examples, in and of itself. They are active and engaged and appear to show an interest in the alignments of other players.
If I ask them questions, I am very likely to get satisfactory answers; unless I actually want to know something, there is therefore not much to ask them. I would ask questions if I have a particular concern and nobody else has asked after such; unless I have a specific point to clarify all I can really ask is 'are you scum' and you'll say 'nah I'm town' and I'll go 'yeah okay I can believe that'.
If you look at my reads list, you'll see that realistically I should be asking questions to Tiruin, Shakerag and in particular Persus13, so I guess I'll do that in a bit.
But for now, you (Tea) haven't raised any specific points for me to comment on (as Lenglon or TolyK have) nor are you a player I'm really worried about the alignment of.
Post by: doll on June 03, 2017, 01:56:47 am
So, flabort hasn't asked any questions since his first post in RVS.
I mean, he's been inactive for a while, but he never asked any more questions in his 'followup' of those RVS questions.
Flabort
You have been helpful but not especially productive.
What players would you feel confident in calling town or very likely town?
Do any players stick out to you as scum?
Does your role suggest to you any ways of dealing with potential third parties? (the 'and why' is purely optional on this one)
Persus13
Okay actually I'm a lot happier with him as town than I thought, nothing to see here.
Also, de-sUe is archaic, not childish. You still see it in some formal situations. I haven't met any teenage girls who pronounce the old form except for chunni's at fashion festivals and they hardly count, but I have seen it from some government officials.
Shakerag
This game is ... a little different, but more on the detrimental to me side. I'm not going to say much right now, but more toward the end of the day I think I'll give out a bit more info.Are we approaching that point yet, or have you changed your mind?
Does Lenglon's fusion have much bearing on how you intend to play out the rest of the day?
Post by: Tiruin on June 03, 2017, 02:04:21 am
Here're all mah posts! 1 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164260.msg7471662#msg7471662), 2 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164260.msg7472449#msg7472449), 3 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164260.msg7472453#msg7472453), 4 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164260.msg7472487#msg7472487).
Also I do hope everyone is having fun. To the newbies [Tea/Pozzai], while it may seem like people are being very thorough with Day1, it'll be due to many other things later that'll affect people and their ideas. To be transparent--I'm not against his 'buddying' up with you, and any kind of buddying because buddying by itself isn't anything wrong. But if people do act like these--don't take it personally, whatever anyone does, they're held accountable for what they do. Obviously, in Mafia.
Alright. I'm starting to feel like I don't hate my life, so I must be getting somewhat drunk.No self-hate please :< lives can be changed with action over time, and awareness!
Just steps at a time even if it seems like one big thing :3 Big things are actually small things seen connectedly.
Hum! It seems Lenglon is now with Shakerag O_o
And they both seem aware of it.
Also TBF, my vote is still on you because I'm still curious as to why you seem to be picking out specific people and then persecuting them, and being reactionary to others only in turn. However I'd unvote at the moment due to sporadic internet--will re-vote later on if I can over the weekend and get more posts in! :-[
{Also TBF, you haven't replied to my queries in posts 3/4 above :p}
REEDS list! [Made from Papyrus! On Papyrus!]
Tea/Pozzai - both lean town to me because of how their content is parsed, even if some content is a bit askew :p
Shakerag - ...I still have to ask. When he said SK/Miller, I took that more like 'he's an SK, but he said miller, so he'll appear as Mafia, when he's an SK' >_> That's why I voted him in the first place. And then unvoted because :v
TBF - Leaning Ugh moreso because of how he posts. >_< It's unhelpful to not be aware of one's own 'how I post' affecting others' ideas of them but also that his posts are reactionary and sporadic. It's at times, needless, but if it's something like meatspace-Mafia, it's a reaction like :o being verbalized in text and posted. He's been like this as scum before--which is one reason why I'm voting him, otherwise he'd be neutral but ugh. Other reasons are in between my re-read, and me crumpling under horribad internets.
doll - This is either going to end up hilarious or otherwise, either way I'm hugging him because I choose to believe him saying his role name and stuff. Which helps me. That said, I see him as town-leaning explicitly because he's being expressively transparent, or obliquely transparent that it's moreso translucent if he's scum [and he's just doing Day1 for kicks and funstuff]. And reminds me of Vector because they're cool. And I miss them. :V
. . .
Quote from: A list of everyone else to write about
flabort - I've read a bit about you...but nothing stood out. In the 'active' sense, partly biased by me being all :D that you're back. But more activity please :I>_> I seriously have to re-read a lot. Because I'm either getting humor/nice reads on people and having fun, or these are all in the gray zone.
TheDarkStar - I feel like you're more active in other places than here. But there IS a DCSS tournament going on and you're ruling the game :V That game. :P But please more here too.
Lenglon -...I guess your alignment is the same as Shakerag's now?
Tiruin - Hi! I'm Tiruin.
origamascienceguy - absent ;~;
TolyK
hector13
FallacyOfUrist
Persus13
Jack A T - reading pretty well. His initial marks and how he acted leave me to note him as leaning town given what he's doing and what he's planning and his kindness [not his kindness = town/scum lean, per se, but his kindness in expression telling me more than the value of his content into his alignment] Tawny!
4maskwolf
Also I'm town. Please boop me nicely. [No investigates please; I'll show up town. No I'm not a bloody Godfather. Yes I tell the truth always.] :v
Shakelon: When you say fused...what does that mean?
Err, "he doesn't"? Either I'm missing context clues in between doll addressing you (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164260.msg7473400#msg7473400) or this is more 'I'm speaking out of context of knowing how the ability works and yeah'LengragI do, he doesnt, Sk-miller claim verified as well
Do you have any insight into the alignment of the player you fuse with?
._.
Speaking for myself too because coincidentally the above person makes a good explanation but I wanted to answer this too :IIn other news I find it vaguely weird how much people seem to be soft-defending me ITT lately but not really talking to me.Something I've wanted to say and this provides a good opportunity to:[...]
> People can defend you because their reads are connected to you in turn; otherwise they've also a good eye on how you are [as in reading you town-ish or otherwise], alongside the note being that this is purely D1 and it's more a poke-fest of information in everyone's subjective way of doing their wincon and having fun.
Moreso, if this references me, I'm soft-defending [...soft = indirect, right? :v] you because you're getting dumb flak because 'another person is talking to you a lot and that is Pozzai', and this flak can really not be helpful. Overall. It's a player's personal behavior in the way that isn't necessarily even alignment-biased.
This is partly (mostly) why I'm poking only a certain set of people now.
Because other people can be nudged later on! :3 ...and that others are nudging them now in turn, that I find myself being okay with their current communique.
Wow communique is a word! But not in a way I envisioned it here. Ah well.
Lenglon:I missed this while browsing on Lenglon/Shakerag but...Am I right in presuming you're just repeating the orange part BECAUSE of your first post? "Leave it to webadict to screw me..." (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164260.msg7470738;topicseen#msg7470738) [because I sent in a OP role?] :PShakerag: Time to address the elephant in the room. You always submit a role that is disruptive to the game. Do you think your current one is going to be a major player or a minor player in how the game works out?[...]
Well, typically my roles (off the top of my head) either tend to be disruptive to everyone or just detrimental to me. Like in BYOR 10 (I think) I fucked with the voting system all game. This game is ... a little different, but more on the detrimental to me side. I'm not going to say much right now, but more toward the end of the day I think I'll give out a bit more info.
Because it's weird to see you reaffirming something that's private.
Did you plan to fuse with Lenglon? If so; why?
If not; do you like
PPE: Doll! x1
Post by: Pozzai on June 03, 2017, 03:31:41 am
I kind of mulled over in the night, and during my pubcrawl, whether I felt like Tea was more town, or I wanted Tea to be town after our last interactions.
I kind of came to the conclussion that I just feel and think like she's townier after the exchanges we had, though with a few caveats still.
This also results in me thinking Jack is probably more of a townlean for me now, as Jack and myself both shared the same strong feeling Tea was scum, and both of us basically at the same time started doubting. I would like people to go through #438 to #449 and kind of 'fact check' me.
Like, I don't think the posts Tea has during that time is screaming town, but I think it results in you flip-flopping a bit on Tea if you were in the situation Jack was prior to the exchanges, so it leads me to believe Jack actively was looking to determine her alignment, instead of just reading the posts?
Unvote, Vote TBF
I don't feel superstrong about the TBF thing, a bunch of the things I have issues with is logic based, and Lenglon says it's not exactly TBF's forte. It also seems "too easy" in that everyone is basically "yeah we can kill off TBF" which is normally a huge warning sign that something is wrong, but if it's just a bunch of 3Ps instead of a mafia team, maybe irrelevant?
Post by: doll on June 03, 2017, 03:40:12 am
I never stated my role name.
Also, don't protect me if you have a protect, because it's not going to work in any meaningful way, and I've got more to do while I'm dead than most players do anyway.
re: Lenglon commenting on Shakerag:
Lenglon confirmed that she knows Shakerag's alignment and powers, presumably having access to Shakerag's full role. Shakerag did not gain a similar set of information about Lenglon.
Shakerag's claim of sk-miller corresponds to the xybot (or xylbot or w/e it's called) rolepower which inspects as sk. The rolepower is theoretically alignment neutral, but Lenglon says that Shakes is town and I don't have a strong reason to doubt that at this junction.
Pozzai
Tea's play in #438-449 appears as really authentic to my eye, which is like the postmodernist version of town.
I'm slightly less enthused about Jack's play in that section, but it's more that he just feels disconnected and alienated from what went on and he didn't really 'get' the early game that tea was playing and that it's just a case of town players shooting past each other because they're each going a different way seems pretty plausible and likely to me.
I'm less happy about Jack than Tea (as town) in general though, but that's just because I'm fairly happy with tea as town or town-identifiable scum.
Post by: Tiruin on June 03, 2017, 03:53:04 am
Tiruin:c
I never stated my role name.
Also, don't protect me if you have a protect, because it's not going to work in any meaningful way, and I've got more to do while I'm dead than most players do anyway.
But I thought it was genki! (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164260.msg7470592#msg7470592) [All my abilites that require a rolename--since this is literally the first time I've played with them \o/ -- only work when I use them :p]
Aww .-.;
Um, thanks for clarifying.
PFP
Well, I've a semi-obvious set of people to target tonight then <_>
Shakerag's claim of sk-miller corresponds to the xybot (or xylbot or w/e it's called) rolepower which inspects as sk. The rolepower is theoretically alignment neutral, but Lenglon says that Shakes is town and I don't have a strong reason to doubt that at this junction.Thanks doll c: To re-edit my earlier reads--Shakerag lies alongside Pozzai/Tea due to his nature of how he states what he says too. In between the drunkposting anyway.
Also Lenglon didn't say Shake is town but she said 'I c-
I do, he doesnt, Sk-miller claim verified as wellTo your note of
LengragAnd thanks for the better rewording!
Do you have any insight into the alignment of the player you fuse with?
Quote
Lenglon confirmed that she knows Shakerag's alignment and powers, presumably having access to Shakerag's full role. Shakerag did not gain a similar set of information about Lenglon.
So I'm presuming this is Lenglon's ability action.
Lenglon: What did you do or why did you pick SHakey? [I'm still re-reading so just linking me to any post prior is okay too]
[...]Just reading this reminds me of how I felt while reading Immanuel Kant's stuff.
Pozzai
Tea's play in #438-449 appears as really authentic to my eye, which is like the postmodernist version of town.[...]
So new, so defined, so impressionistic. :3
And yay, I spelled his name right after 5 years of not reading philosophy.
Post by: Tiruin on June 03, 2017, 03:55:27 am
Quote
« Last Edit: Today at 03:54:45 am by Tiruin »Bluh bluh grammar checking modify in <1 minute of posting, thanks slow internet -_-
Post by: doll on June 03, 2017, 04:14:29 am
Also, he predates postmodernism by >300 years.
Post by: Tiruin on June 03, 2017, 04:19:25 am
Ahaaaa ._. I'm sorry! I didn't mean it that way--I meant in a positive perspective rather than what nitty bits may have stayed on Kant's sieve in how he did things. The comparison was positive in the way that meant 'I like this description' by noting an outside-inside context with terms.
And yep. :P Postmodernism! \o/ The first time I've seen it used in a Mafia context when describing perspective to another's post.
Post by: doll on June 03, 2017, 04:25:48 am
Authenticity was the core idea which Sartre (and Kierkegaard) discussed, and is usually commented on as being 'the postmodernist version of morality' or something like that, which is what I was supposed to be calling back to.
PPE:
I called webadict's rant about authenticity being a towntell sartre-esqu in an earlier game, I think the BM.
Anyway, my playstyle could be called 'the postmodern style of mafia' since it deconstructs traditional meaning (as in Leafsnail's positivist checklist of scum behaviors) and favors a style which, rather than pursuing moral or general truths (finding scum) seeks to reach the goals of the user alone i.e. the lynch of a player is a lynch in and of itself, and not a commentary on their likelyhood of being scum etc.
It has, in this way, a pragmatism reminiscent of Stirner and those that have come after in a similar vein.
Post by: TolyK on June 03, 2017, 05:57:42 am
Why the fuck are people not asking what Survival mode is?!
I just woke up and read a bit, but seriously?
Post by: TheBiggerFish on June 03, 2017, 07:36:16 am
Post by: doll on June 03, 2017, 07:36:56 am
Why the fuck are people not asking what Survival mode is?!1) Nobody claimed they were changing the gamemode or turning survival mode on or anything to that extent
2) Survival mode, as far as it has been expressed so far, is purely to the benefit of the mafia:
Survival - The Mafiakill does not count toward the 1 action per Phase limit.3) Therefore, whoever turned survival mode on is scum and, perhaps unsurprisingly, does not want to out theirself or provide information about what it does
4) Therefore, any commentary on survival mode is (purely baseless) speculation
Also I'm not really phased by it because my action was going to have a similar effect anyway. Presumably scum turned survival mode on this phase because I'll be giving them an extra action after this and they can only use survival mode for one cycle or w/e and it'll be mostly useless after I've acted or something like that (or they want to kill & use a protect or w/e - like I said, all I or anyone has got on it is baseless speculation)
PPE:
No shit
Post by: TolyK on June 03, 2017, 08:10:36 am
Nevermind, I reread your last sentence. The first question still stands, though.
Post by: doll on June 03, 2017, 08:40:27 am
... why will you be giving the mafia an extra action?
Why don't you read the thread and stay up to date, eh?...If you somehow survive the night, explain that.Well this gamemode is lucky, because I don't need to worry about giving mafia the ability to take another night action as well as the mafiakill....What.
This is why no-one likes you, nano.Here is my fullclaim:Spoiler: kore wa fullclaim des (click to show/hide)
I intend to use (E) to use (D) twice and (A) and (B) some arbitrary number of times on every player in night 1.
Post by: doll on June 03, 2017, 08:43:21 am
TolyK, Shakerag
Do either of you think I should avoid targeting certain (or many) players with my night abilities?
Post by: TolyK on June 03, 2017, 08:50:44 am
I see. Well, my older advice still stands, then. Killing random people is pretty annoying to those people, even though you can revive them they still end up vanilla.
Do you require points to use EACH ONE of your actions? I'm guessing yes.
Post by: Lenglon on June 03, 2017, 09:10:34 am
1) respect for his play in general
2) a self-contradictory read of him (I didn't buy his miller claim emotionally, but did mentally, cold analysis said town, emotions said SK)
3) curiosity for what role he submitted to the BYOR.
4) Shake made a self-depreciating comment in the banter thread that made me want to express (1), and I feel more comfortable expressing through action sometimes.
5) I had major concerns about being able to post at all, and doing this would help cover the dead period if I couldn't post.
also, Tir:
Note: the mode change is NOT from me or shakerag. I have his entire role PM and he has most of mine, (doesnt have my alignment). Neither of us have anything to change the mode like that. We are both town, but he cannot verify that I am even though I can verify he is. we have shared actions and votes, and he can post and/or act for me while im away.
Post by: doll on June 03, 2017, 09:21:40 am
Is Tiruin town?
It sounds like she needs rolenames to protect players (?)
Would it be a good idea to share some of your current role information to feed her roles based machine?
Post by: Lenglon on June 03, 2017, 09:38:55 am
My best guess here is that everything Tir has claimed thus far is true. I also think that since she told us to NOT give away role info we shouldn't do it. Its reasonable to assume there is a counterpart to her, be she scum or town, likely one of the other is hidden.
As for my read of her? Town-ally. actual town maybe and maybe not, shes prone to aiding town when shes 3rd-party, including as a SK. I haven't got enough to reasonably guess at that part yet.
note that this is an emotional read, I can't bring up specific post segments to back it up. Dealing with her I believe emotional reads are more accurate than mechanical ones. she plays a good scum game and she is prone to missing entire posts as any alignment, so its very hard to lock her alignment mechanically.
Post by: Tiruin on June 03, 2017, 09:41:10 am
... So, things happened. One we get a public explanation of. Second is unknown what it even does.I was :O
Why the fuck are people not asking what Survival mode is?!
I just woke up and read a bit, but seriously?
With a lot less expletives and innuendo. However the obvious hit me a millisecond after. It's like doll's post but my own :p
Basically:
Why do you care.
It is obviously player activated; it is obviously going to be mentioned if ever that person is of actual teamplay mind--context in the situation, it can also be fakeclaimed, either way it is too early to even make use of anything due to a myriad # of factors.
OHOH! :O You picked Shake! (You should've picked me ;~; becuz girl power)
It sounds like she needs rolenames to protect players (?)Not really D: (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164260.msg7473467#msg7473467)
Just knowing people's rolenames, role ability names, who targets who, etc, boosts me up :3
As in my abilities.
All of which isn't even part of my theme or what I expected but :V I'm cool.
Also thanks for clarification x>x
Quote
Rolename: seriously tir that wasn't my rolename I dunno what you're talking aboutI misread ._.
Also your role sounds a lot like balancing a card game. I like that :p MTG \o/ [of which I have 0 knowledge about other than those 5 fancy colors that I somehow felt nicely towards as a child]
Also Lenglon: Just to ask; are there any other players matching your coincidental choice this game at the current time?
Anyone else targeting Lenglon? :3 I want to hug you (while you do whatever to her). [I actually don't do anything important x<x Hence why I keep harping about being a bloody magnet, however if I know stuff, I can then act and boost people. Bwuhbluhbwuhbluh!]
[/manyclaimsI'vemade]
My best guess here is that everything Tir has claimed thus far is true. I also think that since she told us to NOT give away role info [if you think it won't help your team; obviously Town] we shouldn't do it.Yes please.
This is a disclaimer on everything I say. I edited it in there. :p
I'm guessing scum did it.Can you add to this by typing your speculation out in detail?
I would love to know more about your thinking this game.
Post by: Tiruin on June 03, 2017, 09:45:55 am
I'm wondering if they can act on each other :V that'd fulfill one of the stuffin's I mentioned!When actioning lenglon or shakerag or lenglon-shakerag, how should we annotate the action in our PM to you?Currently, they are the same player. They do, however, still have separate votes.
You may target one of the other. Or come up with a creative portmanteau of their names. Personally, I'm fond of Lakelon.
Lakelag: Can you still target your fused buddy and can he target you?
Post by: Lenglon on June 03, 2017, 10:11:00 am
and because I know youll ask:
Why Tir? becuz friend, simple as that.
Why tea? respect + outsider
why doll? analytic
why persus? analytic.
why flabort? vaguely remember him earning, through good hard work and skill, so kinda fancy title.
Who outside the game would I have prioritized? NQT.
Targeting each other depends on the ability.
Post by: Shakerag on June 03, 2017, 10:11:42 am
Just a reminder that I'm crazy busy on the weekends.
Might post at night. Depends if the powderkeg I live with falls asleep early or not.
Post by: Lenglon on June 03, 2017, 10:12:01 am
Post by: Pozzai on June 03, 2017, 08:55:33 pm
Pozzai:I assumed you'd figure out from the context that I was referring to doll's point about your reads. Specifically this one:4 reads, yes. Have any changed? Doll has a point about you.What exactly is Doll's point about me? Why don't YOU expand on it?
4 reads is still more than most people in the game has given, why is it an issue I 'only' gave 4, why is it not more important that multiple people have given (next to) none?
And no, nothing major has changed in regards to this.
What do you think of fish asking for my reads, being told I had given some and has proceeded to do 0 with the information? No confrontation or discussion at all about the reads he was so interested in me giving?
I didn't expand on it because you're already responding fairly poorly to the pressure given to you by doll and TBF, which is understandable, given doll's idea of pressure, but at the same time wanted you to be aware that doll had a point. Lenglon did a much better job on this front.
Sure 4 reads is better than a lot of people, but its still only a quarter of the players in this game. And the four reads were of people like flabort, who hasn't posted as much as he did early game. So I'm sure you had more reads than just 4 by then. And later on, you did start posting them.
Also, what you did in this post with TBF is classic deflection. You should also notice I've stated previously that if I wasn't voting flabort I'd be voting TBF, explicitly attacking him for lack of follow-up.Posting a full readslist shows you want to seem active, as you can't possibly have anything remotely strong in terms of opinions on anyone.The weaker reads still generate content, because a snap judgement on someone tells you a bit about the player making the read list. Are the strong reads important yes, but sometimes the weak ones give good content. What's wrong with wanting to be engaged and active? I'm fine with it if you don't like posting a full list of reads (because most of reads on OSG is going to be "he's barely posted") but you seem to be implying its a scumtell here.
It's way better to fixate on the stronger reads and make sure you let people know those than adding a bunch of sleb into a pile "just because"Again, I answered them in terms of what they gave, had they asked "do you have any reads, I'd have pointed out where they were, demand shit, and you'll get responded to in equalYou keep using they, but most of these complaints in this post are directed solely at TBF, and your last line refers to FallacyofUrist, I think. If you look at the cases brought against you by TBF, doll, and Lenglon, you'll notice that they have different reasons for voting you. Lenglon's voting you over your supposed hypocritical reads stance, doll has a slightly broader case on you, and TBF's voting you for buddying. You're lumping people in the game into an indistinguishable "they" in this post and its really weird, since I don't think you're using it as a gender neutral pronoun here.
Their constant avoidance to actually give specifics as to where 'buddying' exists, their lack in interest in how the other person in the exchanges thought the exchange felt means he's just latching onto what's cool and popular.
They also asked me to go read up on other games, but have had no interest in reading up on mine or Tea's and used it to throw shade in my direction.Persus was on my ISO list which I intended to do today at some point, but frankly only awake right now because I set my alarm to +3hours earlier so will have to wait till tonight, because Persus' reason for scumreading me felt very lazy, got a postnumber down for Flabort? I kinda felt like I had read one more at some point that irked me a bit, but couldn't find it when I quickly looked through earlier.Where did I say I thought you were scum?
So at the first part and the final sentence.
Those two together actually make it even worse.
You're verbally supporting a case on me, that I, and even Doll themself agreed on was "weak"
It's a kind of non-commital way to keep pressure on a person, while deciding whether you want to be on the wagon and actively pursuing the lynch, or stepping back later if things change. The fact that you're now trying to make it sound as if you were not actually scumreading me, makes the manner of reminding people of the case even worse.
I use "they" a lot, because it's the gender neutral way of speaking of people. As long as I'm not 100% certain of people's gender, I tend to keep it gender neutral, which I have done the entire game, except one instance where I think Tea initially said "he" so I in terms responded with "he" about Lenglon, how come you haven't noticed that other places?
@Jack I'm starting to ISO/LurkerTrack Persus now, can you go into more detail about your read on them?
Pozzai
May've been addressed already, but:I haven't shared them(well kind of have in some interactions) and I wont, because it breaks the purpose.
If I say "I did this and that because I hope to get these results" I murk the waters for the results I get.
There's no point in giving people an exact blueprint of what you're doing/intending to do.
*cough cough*If scum!4mask, might be informative if their arguments feels reachy or contrived.
So... you're willing to let scum know a little bit about how to hide themselves from you, but you're unwilling to let town know how to show themselves to you?
You also seem to be awfully interested in other players reads of those that are voting you:
flabort on TBF (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164260.msg7472176#msg7472176)
Lenglon on TBF's suspicion (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164260.msg7472229#msg7472229)
Lenglon on TBF in general (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164260.msg7472395#msg7472395)
Almost as though you're trying to deflect attention (votes?) onto a person that can easily be made to look scummier than you.
What do you think of TBF?
It seems from your reads (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164260.msg7472490#msg7472490) that you have a much stronger case against both TBF and doll (in the sense that nobody is going to vote with you based on meta) than you do for the person you're voting for at this point, which is Tea. Why are you voting for Tea here, and not TBF or doll? (vote count at the time (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164260.msg7472416#msg7472416))
Quite frankly, yes, I'd rather tell people how to avoid being scumread than how to be townread, because that still means they have to force themselves into doing stuff in a certain manner to 'satisfy me' which can come of as crafted to me, and might get people who know them better to see things in their argumentation that reveals their alignment as well.
Also, I never said I didn't alude to or say what I do find towny in general, because that's in all my reads where I have seen something towny.
I am saying if I do/say "x" to get reactions, I'm not afterwards gonna state "I hope to get y" out of it, because it ruins any natural reactions to my initial action. For an example, see when I explain how I went about my initial thought process about Tea.
I did and said specific things, to get reactions from her, and then revealed why I did so and what I got from it, had I simply instantly said "I wish for Y" that whole sequence of interactions had been pointless.
Regarding to strength of case, Doll is self-resolving. If I am wrong on them, and we lynch them while they're self-resolving, that's a huge own-goal.
About TBF, you'll notice I spoke to a townlean later turned into a townread about their meta, since no one said "no that's total bull" to the meta explanation, I take that as fairly accurate, which creates issues with a large part of my points about them, because a large portion of my issue is that "surely a logical person would've noticed/done...."
Finally, I do not think my case on TBF or Doll were stronger. Tea has had some interactions and actions/lack of actions I find 'off' at the same time she's a person(the only person) I at the same time have some experience with, and in terms of meta, she also feels off, so as a person that tends to use experience as a factor in my reads, she pinged both the "in this game" and "through experience" parts of my scumradar.
TBF I expanded on a few times, since my Tea read kind of dissipated a bit, they're my strongest scumread. I have severe reservations about them being in a position where everyone is like "well we can just lynch them because I don't know" and something I hadn't quite taken in yet this morning when still posting was that the OP kind of confirmed a mafia faction existing, which therefore makes me even more uncertain about them being scum, or just a misslynch where people can just claim "well they were poe" as their reason to kill them off.
@Tea you asked for a reminder.
Post by: Pozzai on June 03, 2017, 09:08:54 pm
Pozzai
Tea's play in #438-449 appears as really authentic to my eye, which is like the postmodernist version of town.
I'm slightly less enthused about Jack's play in that section, but it's more that he just feels disconnected and alienated from what went on and he didn't really 'get' the early game that tea was playing and that it's just a case of town players shooting past each other because they're each going a different way seems pretty plausible and likely to me.
I'm less happy about Jack than Tea (as town) in general though, but that's just because I'm fairly happy with tea as town or town-identifiable scum.
See, I do kind of agree with this to some point, but at the same time there was a fair few small factors that annoyed me slightly at the same time.
First and foremost that is the first interactions where she actually seems, in lack of better words, emotionally attached to the game, you know just after I said that was an issue of mine. Maybe I should just have waited for a bit longer with mentioning that, but at the same time I didn't want to make a case on her in the weekend right up near day end.
Outside that, I feel like if Jack was as much of a priority to her as she lets know, she'd have interacted with him about his readslist and the disagreements to get a firmer grasp of where they were coming from. I do have some thoughts on this but will await Tea to post before saying what they are.
And finally, I feel like her "some townsided 3P BS role" read on me is..... Strange? Like there's no explanation as to why I'd be (lets say for simplicity) an survivalist > SK. Both need to put in a moderate amount of effort into the game to avoid being lynched, while not being "obvious town" so they get shot.
Post by: Pozzai on June 03, 2017, 09:17:22 pm
When you say "use a and b" multiple times, you mean, "b and c", right? Because otherwise there's something I'm missing O.o
Post by: doll on June 03, 2017, 09:21:29 pm
And finally, I feel like her "some townsided 3P BS role" read on me is..... Strange? Like there's no explanation as to why I'd be (lets say for simplicity) an survivalist > SK.Survivors are scum.
Anyway, Tea has a townread on you
I would be pretty surprised if Pozzai wasn't town, or some third party BS that's pretty close to town.They just leave open the potential for town-ally roles.
I can't comment on your meta-read of tea but my interpretation of the Tea->Jack interaction in that section is that she burnt out the last of what she was basing her push|investigation on and still didn't have anything useful, and so felt like she couldn't really chase Jack up but at the same time hadn't reached a resolution for whether or not she would even want to lynch him.
@DollYeah that would be correct, my bad.
When you say "use a and b" multiple times, you mean, "b and c", right? Because otherwise there's something I'm missing O.o
Post by: Pozzai on June 03, 2017, 09:22:10 pm
Can you walk me through your TBF thing a bit.
Are they obvlivious to their posting style, just as one alignment, or is it a general thing? What is your experience with them?
Also, do you have any opinion however small about Lenglon, if so what?
Post by: doll on June 03, 2017, 09:26:30 pm
I haven't played that many games but I haven't played one where TBF was useful or productive.
The recent Fallacy's BYOR2 is a good example of where, as confirmed town, TBF added nothing the entire game and was in no small part responsible for the town's loss.
Post by: Pozzai on June 03, 2017, 09:30:42 pm
I can't comment on your meta-read of tea but my interpretation of the Tea->Jack interaction in that section is that she burnt out the last of what she was basing her push|investigation on and still didn't have anything useful, and so felt like she couldn't really chase Jack up but at the same time hadn't reached a resolution for whether or not she would even want to lynch him.@DollYeah that would be correct, my bad.
When you say "use a and b" multiple times, you mean, "b and c", right? Because otherwise there's something I'm missing O.o
Thing is she went like "I think I just want to discuss reads" in one of her posts, and didn't do that with Jack despite them being "important to figure out"
Like I feel like she's saying a lot of good/decent things in those posts, but kind of, doesn't act upon them. Ugh, I feel like I should just take a Tea-off day in my mind and return to her later >_>
Also that last post is kind of harsh :(
Post by: doll on June 03, 2017, 09:38:28 pm
How do you feel about Persus13?
It seems like you're reading him as scum, but I'd disagree with that.
He shared my concerns with specific problems with your play. He didn't have the option of making you flip by killing you like I did, so he had to chase up on them by repeatedly asking questions and hoping you would eventually comply.
The case was 'weak' because it would be hard to get you lynched over it. There definitely was something wrong, but it was a lack of communication. In essence, (this is my perspective) being deliberately unreadable is the next worse thing to being scum.
I've read Persus13 as town. Do you have any particular concerns outside of his interaction with you?
re: TBF
That said, your case implies that I have the power to stop TBF from being himself, which is odd, because I do have that power, but it seems to manifest itself into bold red text, so here's where the deal starts and ends: I think TBF is a scum player by merit. Just as an additional player. He literally brings game down a player on start. And until he decides to play nicely with the other children, maybe I'll start giving him the respect of not instavoting him. But I am gonna maintain with a 99% likelihood that that simply won't happen until he gets thrown out of towns left and right, like some sort of ostracized leper.
Post by: Pozzai on June 03, 2017, 09:44:01 pm
Pozzai
How do you feel about Persus13?
It seems like you're reading him as scum, but I'd disagree with that.
He shared my concerns with specific problems with your play. He didn't have the option of making you flip by killing you like I did, so he had to chase up on them by repeatedly asking questions and hoping you would eventually comply.
The case was 'weak' because it would be hard to get you lynched over it. There definitely was something wrong, but it was a lack of communication. In essence, (this is my perspective) being deliberately unreadable is the next worse thing to being scum.
I've read Persus13 as town. Do you have any particular concerns outside of his interaction with you?
re: TBFThat said, your case implies that I have the power to stop TBF from being himself, which is odd, because I do have that power, but it seems to manifest itself into bold red text, so here's where the deal starts and ends: I think TBF is a scum player by merit. Just as an additional player. He literally brings game down a player on start. And until he decides to play nicely with the other children, maybe I'll start giving him the respect of not instavoting him. But I am gonna maintain with a 99% likelihood that that simply won't happen until he gets thrown out of towns left and right, like some sort of ostracized leper.
I have just started ISOing/LurkerTrackering them, so I'll get back to you on that, and yes it is mainly due to that interaction I'm doing that because it's kind of gross.
If I were to answer you right not, they're below the null line leaning scum, but still a fair bit off prefered lynch.
Post by: Pozzai on June 03, 2017, 09:58:13 pm
I like the latter part of #336 and I can buy their frustration with the lack of activity from a bunch of people(unless it's a common problem, then it becomes more neutral).
They've also made a few observations that I agree with/made myself, which is slightly leaning town.
Continuing some pressure on Flabort.
The negatives however is:
The 'push' on me as already discussed.
The fact that they have made those observations, but at a later time than me, but kind of not either questioned me at the issues (Flabort being handoff generally) or considered us accessing it from the same pov.
The fact they seem to not having realised at this point I've basically been using gender neutral terms about everyone but Tea this game, seems to indicate a lack of actually reading through my posts.
Overall, I think I could find people I'd rather get killed by the 3 'townkills' you say we have, these currently being TBF, Flabort and probably still Tea, but I wouldn't cry myself to sleep if they did die?
Post by: Tiruin on June 03, 2017, 11:52:28 pm
I like your outlook on naming people, Pozzai, and they is a really good term to adopt when uncertain.
Anyway here's an off-topic thing for help in people peopleing!
Quote from: Pronouns!
Shakerag - He/HimSo yes. :p As far as I know about that particular person on that note.
flabort - He/Him
TheDarkStar - He/Him
Lenglon - She/Her
Tiruin - She/Her
origamascienceguy - He/Him {ALSO THIS DUDE WANTS TO BE REPLACED}
TolyK - He/Him
hector13 - He/Him
FallacyOfUrist - He/Him
Persus13 - He/Him
Jack A T - He/Him
4maskwolf - He/Him
TheBiggerFish - He/Him
doll - He/Him
Tea - She/Her
Pozzai - He/Him
@TiruinWithout disclosing personal information about him--yeah that's how he plays, but he's not actually oblivious; I do not know why he's not open in talking about his playstyle or the wish to improve or to self-criticize his own style (directly on all).
Can you walk me through your TBF thing a bit.
Are they obvlivious to their posting style, just as one alignment, or is it a general thing? What is your experience with them?
Also, do you have any opinion however small about Lenglon, if so what?
He has played this way as both town and scum but in my notes on him--when he plays town, there's a more decisive feel and a more courageous way of how he speaks.
My experience with them is that while his daygame needs improvement, his ability-play is...nominal. Night-game wise, in analyzing his play role-wise back then.
And yes I've an opinion about Lenglon. I'm biased because we're good friends through [SENSITIVE_ISSUES] so that partially pushes me to look up at her. Not so in a way that makes me not assume she's scum [I did that before though <_< She was scum but I was all 'NAAAAH SHE'S TOWN' and then I lost because I was town :v I think. I forget. But that's the lesson I learned.]
Currently I do view her tied with SHakerag--and at a lacking note from him, she is pretty town.
Pretty town, hee. So pretty. :P
But yeah. Two people off my list of the sixteen people present. I'm assuming a 3-man scumteam.
Post by: Pozzai on June 04, 2017, 12:01:43 am
And yes I've an opinion about Lenglon. I'm biased because we're good friends through [SENSITIVE_ISSUES] so that partially pushes me to look up at her. Not so in a way that makes me not assume she's scum [I did that before though <_< She was scum but I was all 'NAAAAH SHE'S TOWN' and then I lost because I was town :v I think. I forget. But that's the lesson I learned.]
Currently I do view her tied with SHakerag--and at a lacking note from him, she is pretty town.
Pretty town, hee. So pretty. :P
But yeah. Two people off my list of the sixteen people present. I'm assuming a 3-man scumteam.
I know that feel, I'm kind of flipping back, forth and inbetween in regards to Tea, I want her to be town, but I feel she's scummy, but I in general hasn't been overly succesful on reading her day one so maybe I'm just wrong, or maybe I doubt because I want her to be town, commence the circle-jerking of my braincells =/
Post by: Pozzai on June 04, 2017, 12:02:32 am
Post by: Shakerag on June 04, 2017, 12:02:48 am
Anyway here's an off-topic thing for help in people peopleing!I will also accept it/its and that asshole/that asshole's.Quote from: Pronouns!Shakerag - He/Him
flabort - He/Him
TheDarkStar - He/Him
Lenglon - She/Her
Tiruin - She/Her
origamascienceguy - He/Him {ALSO THIS DUDE WANTS TO BE REPLACED}
TolyK - He/Him
hector13 - He/Him
FallacyOfUrist - He/Him
Persus13 - He/Him
Jack A T - He/Him
4maskwolf - He/Him
TheBiggerFish - He/Him
doll - He/Him
Tea - She/Her
Pozzai - He/Him
Post by: Tiruin on June 04, 2017, 02:14:25 am
Also, if 3-man scumteam (why do you assume this? What factors are involved?) how many 3Ps if any would you think exists ?3Ps?
I assume this is a normal setup--town/mafia/3rd party in between. So the general idea is that there's a main antagonist (Mafia), and in a player count of 16, a 3 man team seems the usual. I forget any specifics but I usually narrow things down in generalized proportions when working with unknowns in that manner.
I will also accept it/its and that asshole/that asshole's.Eeeeey, you're the oldest person here and I'll never say the last bit even if you've learned some grouchy behaviors :p You're overall a nice guy.
[...]Specifics on the scummy. It helps reflect on one's own reads and how oneself saw their own processing and reasoning.
I know that feel, I'm kind of flipping back, forth and inbetween in regards to Tea, I want her to be town, but I feel she's scummy, but I in general hasn't been overly succesful on reading her day one so maybe I'm just wrong, or maybe I doubt because I want her to be town, commence the circle-jerking of my braincells =/
I see Tea as leaning town, alongside yourself, given a nice read-back. But I'll be finishing it by Monday
Post by: Tea on June 04, 2017, 02:51:14 am
Pozzai, re: my read on you w/r/t third parties
You bringing that just reminded me that Webadict has a thing about what alignments are actually in the game that I have yet to actually thoroughly read. Thx bro.
I think you are experiencing the game as someone legit scumhunting - I'd be very ??? if you flipped group scum. I also don't think you are a serial killer bc I think that both how unconcerned you are with presenting yourself pleasantly and how much I feel like you're trying to do things despite an awkward environment, meet in the middle to be more town than someone-who-normally-gets-NKed-N1-as-town/3P. But I'm less sure that you're not a SK or neutral behaviorally townsiding than I am that you're not group scum. My game plan is not actually to 3P hunt though barring in-game info strongly suggesting I should as I've had decent results from just independently scumreading harmful neutrals in past games while looking for mafia??
-
"why u no spam questions at Jack about his wall since u really wish u knew his alignment?"
I mean, at the point that he had posted it I had kinda put everything related to him - his case on me and trying to read him via interaction - in a box to come back to. I kinda ...don't like interacting with him? It's like, his incredibly haughty command of the English language is kind of awe-inspiring but also not easy to parse mindset from. When I talk to him I feel like there's...an imbalanced power dynamic between us. I was surprised how similarly we were reading the game from his wall and didn't have any real burning questions off the top of my head - which is tentatively nice, as is his semi reconsideration of me. I did ask him a thing recently when I felt ready to.
-
Hector argued in his last wall that it seemed deflective of Pozzai to ask people for reads on people scumreading after a few people had discussed being suspicious of Pozzai. But from what I remember he only cited examples of Pozzai asking about TBF - which both seemed to ignore Pozzai's TBF trajectory throughout the game and seemed to be talking about that questioning behavior as more pervasive than it really was.
-
Pozzai, when you voted TBF, you mentioned that you think thread consensus being fairly open to his lynch might mean he's town unless the setup is weird - but I dunno that based on his play+apparently meta that his hypothetical scum partners are really in any position to do anything besides... argue someone else is more scummy? I'm also not really feeling a sense of urgency to consolidate on a lynch from the thread yet so I think you jumped the gun on the game flow argument. #nihilism
Post by: doll on June 04, 2017, 04:26:48 am
Does anybody think any of Flabort, FallacyofUrist or TheDarkStar are town?
I just want to flash them in the spotlight for a moment since with the way this is going, they aren't going to draw attention to themselves.
Post by: TolyK on June 04, 2017, 04:30:32 am
Post by: Lenglon on June 04, 2017, 04:33:30 am
Flabort - poison (emotion), idle (mental)
FoU - mild town (emotion), scum (mental)
TDS - null (emotion), un-noticed (I think hes idle? but am not sure, might have just missed posts?) (mental)
TolyK: you gonna explain why you didnt vote me earlier?
Post by: Lenglon on June 04, 2017, 04:47:44 am
dealing with that kind of person is exhausting. Im not saying he is like that, but I havent done the extreme backchecking needed to be comfortable saying he isnt, and he feels like he is. sooooooo, yeah, thats a thing.
Post by: TolyK on June 04, 2017, 04:48:02 am
Sure. For one, I'm fairly afraid of vote manipulation, as I have reason to believe there will be. Given this fact, and also that I didn't have a concrete read on you at the time, I didn't feel it wise to pressure-vote you. If you had become more suspicious, I'd have voted you, but currently my suspicions are elsewhere (and I'm not revealing them at this time to the public, because I'm curious to see how they work when not under pressure).
Post by: Lenglon on June 04, 2017, 07:29:24 am
TolyK - I dont buy that but I think youre hiding a power, so Ill let you go for now.
Post by: doll on June 04, 2017, 07:46:49 am
dealing with that kind of person is exhausting.I guess it's lucky I'm dying tonight then, eh?
So I've looked over some of the more questionable ones and I guess these are my reads in order of most to least town:
doll
Shakerag (via Lenglon)
Lenglon
Pozzai
Persus13
4maskwolf
Tea
hector13
TolyK
Jack A T
Tiruin
origamascienceguy
TheBiggerFish
TheDarkStar
flabort
FallacyOfUrist
Besides placing themselves at the top and me in some netherworld abyss, does anyone strongly disagree with this?
In particular, does anyone still have a problem with Tea, or any of the other players in the Black&Bold section?
Post by: Lenglon on June 04, 2017, 08:07:55 am
4mask - Where ya at? Whatcha think of doll's murderlist?
Post by: Persus13 on June 04, 2017, 08:28:51 am
doll:
I think one of your kill targets should be OSG. He's an unknown quality at this point, and we have no idea when he'll get replaced, plus he's revivable if he's town or town-aligned.
Besides placing themselves at the top and me in some netherworld abyss, does anyone strongly disagree with this?I'd make some rearrangements to the list, like Lenglon, I'd move TDS up the list a bit, but that's the only major change.
In particular, does anyone still have a problem with Tea, or any of the other players in the Black&Bold section?
Pozzai:
I have noticed it. In fact, I specifically mentioned that this was really weird because you were not using it as a gender neutral pronoun in my post (the bolded section). Reread your post again, and you'll notice that you use they in response to doll's question about other players, which creates the impression of "the other players are out to get me" when most of the actions you were referring to were solely by TBF. But you don't refer to any player by name, so the usage of "they" instead distances the other players and turns them into this anonymous force that's attacking you.You're lumping people in the game into an indistinguishable "they" in this post and its really weird, since I don't think you're using it as a gender neutral pronoun here.
I use "they" a lot, because it's the gender neutral way of speaking of people. As long as I'm not 100% certain of people's gender, I tend to keep it gender neutral, which I have done the entire game, except one instance where I think Tea initially said "he" so I in terms responded with "he" about Lenglon, how come you haven't noticed that other places?
You're verbally supporting a case on me, that I, and even Doll themself agreed on was "weak"I'm making it sound as if wasn't actually scumreading you, because I wasn't. I found elements of your play suspicious, and so I poked at them and tried to get you to post your reads, but I didn't see you as scum. If I thought you were scum, I'd have voted you or given you the blue finger of suspicion.
It's a kind of non-commital way to keep pressure on a person, while deciding whether you want to be on the wagon and actively pursuing the lynch, or stepping back later if things change. The fact that you're now trying to make it sound as if you were not actually scumreading me, makes the manner of reminding people of the case even worse.
Tea:
Thanks for clearing this up, it was your grammar usage that confused me here.I expanded upon it starting in the 3rd paragraph of this post (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164260.msg7471276#msg7471276). I think in general spending lots of time asking things that are unlikely to yield alignment indicative info is active lurking/more trying to look helpful than anything and thus a scumtell. But that behavior IMO was prevalent to the point that it was clearly to some extent a feature of site meta more than something that useful to look at as an individual tell.Way more people are focusing on these things than would be non-town in a standard game.Are the people non-town, or are the things non-town? Can you explain your first sentence quoted a bit more?
I meant unprepared in terms of not planning on dying that night. But I understand where your coming from now. I need to read back through Fallacy's posts, because he's been bugging me a little, so I'll look for that when I do.What's wrong with thinking long term? Why would FofU be expecting to die soon? More importantly, why does that make him scum as opposed to unprepared town? I understand you're suspicious of him for more reasons than that, but you put this one first, which implies its the most important."Underprepared" sounds like it could have a more coded meaning than I'm aware of, but from what I can tell I think not prioritizing getting reads and thus being underprepared is a scumtell, so.
hector13:
Fair enough. Much better post, though lol at only spending an hour on a WoT :PMan, editing this WoT down was annoying. Also I definitely spent more than an hour writing two of my giant posts this game.
Still a bit iffy about you bringing up the hammers, 'cause it was D1 and as Tolyk pointed out, 9 voted are required to hammer at this point. Seems like an awful lot of votes to be worried about.
My thought process was basically "There are three votes are Tea, I wonder if there are hammers? Oh there are, I should remind people that there are."
So you voted FoU in this post, do you plan on lynching him on day end
If yo
Post by: TheDarkStar on June 04, 2017, 10:18:47 am
Anyway:
doll:
dealing with that kind of person is exhausting.I guess it's lucky I'm dying tonight then, eh?
So I've looked over some of the more questionable ones and I guess these are my reads in order of most to least town:
doll
Shakerag (via Lenglon)
Lenglon
Pozzai
Persus13
4maskwolf
Tea
hector13
TolyK
Jack A T
Tiruin
origamascienceguy
TheBiggerFish
TheDarkStar
flabort
FallacyOfUrist
Besides placing themselves at the top and me in some netherworld abyss, does anyone strongly disagree with this?
In particular, does anyone still have a problem with Tea, or any of the other players in the Black&Bold section?
I'd put Pozzai in the bolded section, tea in the unbolded section, and TBF in the lowest section.
- Pozzai just doesn't give me as strong of a town vibe even though he's fairly active. He leans more third party but not evil third party to me.
- Tea leans more scummy to me. Nothing especially serious, although he feels excessively defensive sometimes
- TBF seems scummy because his posts are low on substance. He makes cases on people that only exist because he ignores things they say (see my vote on him (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164260.msg7472476#msg7472476)). Sometimes it seems like he's just pushing a lynch to push a lynch and not to actually find scum.
...and of course I'd put myself at the top, but that's a given. And I'd put you in the bolded section because you don't give off a strongly town read but you do have an audacious claim that will get you lynched very quickly if you're lying.
Post by: Tea on June 04, 2017, 10:43:59 am
Post by: Lenglon on June 04, 2017, 10:47:10 am
Post by: doll on June 04, 2017, 10:49:02 am
Gonna have to see an explanation for that one.
- Pozzai just doesn't give me as strong of a town vibe even though he's fairly active. He leans more third party but not evil third party to me.
The strength of my read on 4mask is based on meta, and the fact that he hasn't followed the behavior chronic to D1 scum!4maskwolf which I used to find him in the BM.
For this reason, players not sharing that meta-context should have a weaker townread of 4maskwolf than I do.
Post by: Lenglon on June 04, 2017, 10:55:06 am
TDS: Can you speak more to your Persus and 4mask reads?Tea - Why persus?
Post by: Lenglon on June 04, 2017, 10:57:50 am
Post by: Tea on June 04, 2017, 11:02:50 am
Post by: Lenglon on June 04, 2017, 11:05:49 am
Post by: Tea on June 04, 2017, 11:11:35 am
Post by: hector13 on June 04, 2017, 11:45:00 am
The strength of my read on 4mask is based on meta, and the fact that he hasn't followed the behavior chronic to D1 scum!4maskwolf which I used to find him in the BM.
For this reason, players not sharing that meta-context should have a weaker townread of 4maskwolf than I do.
Mmm...
You said this regarding flabort earlier in the day:
I've actually had a gut feeling that flabort is scum this whole game, and it comes back every time I read over other players interacting with him.
However, when I read flabort's early game content I saw high-quality RVS stuff in RVS, and then he sort of trailed off.
Like I said, his towniness is dependent on his continuing what had the makings of a strong daygame; trailing off on the strength of his RVS is an easy direction to see scum!flabort as going in.
It looks to me that around the time of 4mask's last post (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164260.msg7471256#msg7471256) that the game is getting out of RVS.
I guess my question is: in light of the BM that you're basing the 4mask meta-read on being very recent - the last game you both played in, I think, thus very likely influencing how much effort he puts in earlier in this game - why does 4mask indulging in stronger early game play earn him a free pass after his effort trails off, while flabort's doesn't?
Post by: hector13 on June 04, 2017, 11:53:08 am
hector13:Fair enough. Much better post, though lol at only spending an hour on a WoT :PMan, editing this WoT down was annoying. Also I definitely spent more than an hour writing two of my giant posts this game.
Still a bit iffy about you bringing up the hammers, 'cause it was D1 and as Tolyk pointed out, 9 voted are required to hammer at this point. Seems like an awful lot of votes to be worried about.
My thought process was basically "There are three votes are Tea, I wonder if there are hammers? Oh there are, I should remind people that there are."
So you voted FoU in this post, do you plan on lynching him on day end
If yo
...
/ha
I voted FoU because I felt my vote would be better placed there at that juncture. His reads list doesn't make sense to me, and I wanted clarification with the proviso that if it wasn't to a reasonable standard, I'd be inclined to keep my vote on him.
Presently I would be alright with an FoU lynch, but I'd really rather have him respond to the clarification request, walk us through his thought process a bit before fully committing to my vote.
I'm slightly bemused why he didn't vote for an extension if he knew he wasn't able to post until the last day of D1, too.
Post by: TheBiggerFish on June 04, 2017, 12:58:54 pm
@TDS: Oh come on.
(Still reading/rereading/responding, expect rapid-fire post fragments.)
Post by: TheBiggerFish on June 04, 2017, 01:02:05 pm
TBF seems scummy because his posts are low on substance. He makes cases on people that only exist because he ignores things they say (see my vote on him (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164260.msg7472476#msg7472476)). Sometimes it seems like he's just pushing a lynch to push a lynch and not to actually find scum.No, that wasn't me ignoring what Pozzai said, it was me not being satisfied by Pozzai's explanation when he said what he said.
Post by: flabort on June 04, 2017, 01:19:10 pm
Double post also incoming.
I support the extension
flabort: Distant observer, mostly complaining about the laziness of others. Posts are smaller than they look: non-noteworthy responses sandwiched between lightly trimmed quotes. Contributed very little, and almost entirely against easy targets. Weak scum leanHmmm... no, I won't comment on the sitting votes. But I'll do the next best thing in my next post, and go over each person's voting history during my reads.
flabort: I understand you like sitting back for much of D1. People are starting to place non-RVS votes now, though, and are making arguments. I'd like to see your comments on each sitting vote.
flabortUm... I kind of didn't active lurk, but I kind of didn't post either for a while. I am kind of playing catch-up right now, reading everything I missed. I hope that by this point you haven't scum read me? Anyways, the days I've missed is why I'm splitting my responses and reads into two posts.
I might go for a deep gameplay analysis in a bit if nothing develops otherwise, else:
1) Contributed a lot to the early game
2) My only misgivings are really from their interactions with myself which, as I said, I'm finding hard to read this game
3) If they deliver a strong day-game for the rest of D1, probably town. Else, probably scum. That sounds vacuous, but consider that it is in the context of a strong daygame until the end of RVS (where they stopped really posting), so now we get to see if they are active lurking or town
Flabort:Yes. I plan on using my vote in my next post, where I plan on putting my reads.2) I call them leads because it was the only moderately useful conversation topic that existed so far. Leads refers to anything that can spark conversation and lead to somebody voting over the topic of conversation. And they were unhelpful leads to me because I can't pull any useful evidence out of the WIFOM that they produce. However, they still produced some conversation which lead to other conversation producing more leads to follow, even if some of these leads are still tangled in WIFOM.Have you been able to find more helpful leads now? When do you plan on using your vote again?This, basically.Unvote I feel TBF has fulfilled what I was pressuring him into.
Is that an actual townread, or just a "well at least they entered the game"?
If the latter why not place your vote on a new spot you want to pressure?
If the first, can you walk me through that townread?
The latter. Because I felt there was enough pressure already going on, and I was waiting to get a proper read on people.
I'm gonna have to ask for a replacement. I'm just an anti-shulk right now. SorryWell, that's going to change my read on you.
Note: the mode change is NOT from me or shakerag. I have his entire role PM and he has most of mine, (doesnt have my alignment). Neither of us have anything to change the mode like that. We are both town, but he cannot verify that I am even though I can verify he is. we have shared actions and votes, and he can post and/or act for me while im away.Oh, I really would have loved to post as soon as this happened.
In rereading I've remembered why I didn't like flabort: an idea of activity just for the sake of activity. After all, what was he hoping to gain in the daygame by discussing me? Nothing except smoke, which he identified as such. It's a weaker case than I've ever had but I have also been intending to kill flabort which might have weakened the effort I put into my analysis of him.1) See next post by me
So, flabort hasn't asked any questions since his first post in RVS.
I mean, he's been inactive for a while, but he never asked any more questions in his 'followup' of those RVS questions.
Flabort
You have been helpful but not especially productive.
What players would you feel confident in calling town or very likely town?
Do any players stick out to you as scum?
Does your role suggest to you any ways of dealing with potential third parties? (the 'and why' is purely optional on this one)
2) Yes. As either mafia or third parties, I am thinking potentially You, Persus, and up until a moment ago when I saw OSG had requested replacement I was thinking OSG. See next post.
3) Yeah, I can redirect them.
What about Bastard? :PAnyway here's an off-topic thing for help in people peopleing!I will also accept it/its and that asshole/that asshole's.Quote from: Pronouns!
Which I will also accept Bastard as a pronoun in context of mafia and most forum games.
My reads of those 3:Tsk. I was gone too long for sure.
Flabort - poison (emotion), idle (mental)
FoU - mild town (emotion), scum (mental)
TDS - null (emotion), un-noticed (I think hes idle? but am not sure, might have just missed posts?) (mental)
TolyK: you gonna explain why you didnt vote me earlier?
Besides placing themselves at the top and me in some netherworld abyss, does anyone strongly disagree with this?I don't place you at the very bottom, but yeah I do place you low. I also see that as white+bold, using the darkling color theme. Right now, as I'm going through what I missed, I don't see a problem with your read of Tea; I would have placed Lenglon at the bottom of the green section, maybe in the bold section. Anyways, like I have said, I will be posting my reads in a seperate post.
In particular, does anyone still have a problem with Tea, or any of the other players in the Black&Bold section?
Post by: hector13 on June 04, 2017, 01:20:15 pm
So, my last big post (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164260.msg7473079#msg7473079). TBF doesn't seem to have answered the question I asked of him regarding Pozzai in the first section, or commented on the "you think Pozzai is the most suspicious but you're not voting for them" thing.
Also, the reason I wanted people to take another look at one of his posts is I get the feeling he's being coached from it.
PPE: not read flabsy's post yet.
Post by: TheBiggerFish on June 04, 2017, 02:22:07 pm
Post by: 4maskwolf on June 04, 2017, 02:28:07 pm
Sorry, I had a very busy week at work and how no energy or motivation to play mafia in the short times I wasn't sleeping, eating, or on the clock.
unvote because so much has happened my original voting reasons are no longer relevant.
I've read through everything once but I'm going to have to read through it all again, everything is really dense this game.
Post by: flabort on June 04, 2017, 02:34:12 pm
Me
Town. Dur. Tendency to be an observer (not the role), missed a couple days.
I only used my vote once, for pressure, but will be now.
TolyK
Though I have a hard time reading them, and their activity has been less than stellar in the latter half of the day, though my own activity has been even worse. Their content, on the other hand, has been superb - if you take a random sampling of their posts, you'll find plenty of rapid fire responses that were well thought out, and a few infodumps.
I'm leaning town on this one.
Persus13
Yes, they voted for me, but over a reason which they thought was legitimate and which I haven't done much to fix.
Despite leaving their vote on me, they are pursuing multiple leads, so I have to give them a mild-to-medium town lead on this one.
Hector13
WoT King. Hasn't been able to be very active, but activity < content, and he delivers that in... very concentrated clumps. Mild town lean.
Shakerag
Semi-confirmed town. Real alignment of course depends on confirming Lenglon, and with them being fused together it's nearly impossible to do that day 1 without killing them both and it would be nice to keep shakerag around for confirmed townie purposes. That said, I don't trust Lenglon, so.
4maskwolf
Often the first one to react. Was the first one to vote seriously. But... hasn't changed their vote since, or infact been heard from for a while. WAS a mild town read, now leaning neutral to third party.
Lenglon
Rather short, low-content posts. If you add together their high-quantity posts, it does come together for some content. I have a gut feeling that I shouldn't trust them, especially since for all intents and purposes by fusing with shakerag the sk-miller claim applies to them too, and they could be something pretending to be a miller now.
OSG
Only one post with content, the rest are blaming inactivity on siblings and then asking for a replacement. Given that from what I remember of OSG they never used this excuse before, so I was thinking it was some kind of gambit to garner attention but avoid being lynched. Null read now.
Tea
I have a gut feeling to trust them, but haven't seen anything which supports that. That said, they've been active enough, their reactions have been standard enough, they've posted lots of content, they seem to be fairly standard players since the start of the game. So, nothing I can really say has been unusual enough to base a read on.
Tiruin
From my experience, once you get to know her, reading her posts and reactions is more of a helpful scum hunting tool for reading other people than it is on reading her. Even if she herself doesn't see what I'm gleaning from her posts, which is caused by being friends with everyone, seeing the best in everyone, and very rarely reading someone as scum - but you can see who's suspicious by her interactions with them, and her tendency to keep conversations going. That said, she herself I haven't seen anything particularly town or anti-town.
TheBiggerFish
Up there in post count, low in content per post. Also, not great formatting, though I can read around that. Has kept a couple conversations going, but being limited to mobile has limited their ability to post and analyze. Null read.
FallacyOfUrist
I'm not seeing very much which I could consider a "tell" from them. I'm also not seeing much hunting, but they did post reads. Low-to-null opinion, I guess.
Pozzia
Well, there was some early aggression and adaptation to the meta, though not as much as Doll. That being said, holy wall of posts batman, Pozzia is the most prolific poster in this game. I remember Tiruin likes to say that the player who posts the most in a game is almost never scum, but that doesn't bean they can't be a third party, and it's not a law just a tendency. Between that and the debacle with the reads early in the day, I am leaning neutral or maybe mild scum on this person.
Jack AT
Veteran player, very used to making content filled posts that are town-oriented but overall hard to read. Very useful to read his posts, his reactions, and use them for scum hunting most of the time, but when you feel like he's not contributing as much as he usually does, it's possibly a sign of scum. Mild anti-town lean.
Doll
Although I have confused them with Pozzai earlier, they seem generally active. I SUPER do not trust their claim, especially the infinite actions part, or the purposeful WIFOM part. Who does WIFOM benefit? Nobody but scum. But Doll here has created much more WIFOM than anyone in the game. I very much suspect that they are an anti-town third party, or scum.
TheDarkStar
This is who I should have been pressuring with their posts/activity - or more accurately, their content. Pretty much the definition of active lurking. They've dropped pretty much conversation they've been in. Anti-town lean.
oh, to explain what poison means, its along the lines of condesention + lies / slippery phrasing, the kind of person who debates to win instead of debating to determine whats right. dirty tricks coming naturally, that sort of thing. It doesnt mean scum alignment, but it does mean I have to factcheck every single little thing they say and doublecheck context on responses and quotes. Even if they're confirmed to be on my own team!I missed this.
dealing with that kind of person is exhausting. Im not saying he is like that, but I havent done the extreme backchecking needed to be comfortable saying he isnt, and he feels like he is. sooooooo, yeah, thats a thing.
I'm sorry that I exhaust you, and that my phrasing is slippery. It is not meant that way. I do agree, I debate to win, but I ALSO debate to determine what's right. Because I believe that what's right is what leads me to my victory, and what leads to my victory is right. This does mean, when I play as scum, that I lie, and use evidence out of context, to convince others that my vision of what is right is right, but I don't believe that I have done that this game.
Post by: hector13 on June 04, 2017, 03:30:08 pm
I don't, haven't I explained that before? I got ninja'd by something that basically disproved the main cause of my suspicions, as I have explained, repeatedly.
You haven't explained that before. You explained the tone change, but neglected to mention that it was a read change at some point too.
G'on then, though. Tell us what about the interaction between Pozzai and Tir did to change your mind, 'cause it looks like it was just because Pozzai was interacting with someone else (Tir) and that's why a I asked the question you've still not answered.
Was Pozzai seeking out the interaction, or reacting to someone else interacting with the ?
Post by: hector13 on June 04, 2017, 03:32:10 pm
Could you quote the post that you were referring to when you say your tone changed halfway through?
Post by: Persus13 on June 04, 2017, 04:15:57 pm
Or come up with a creative portmanteau of their names. Personally, I'm fond of Lakelon.Lekelag, Shanglorag, Shakelon. Maybe I should leave this to you.
Doll:
Thanks for taking the time out to find that for me. Also, this post was a little confusing who all the quotes were directed to.Jack's analysis.
Spoiler: Off-topic (click to show/hide)
Lenglon:
Lenglon and Shakerag have been fused!Is this permanent? Are you willing to say how actions would affect you two?
TolyK:
... So, things happened. One we get a public explanation of. Second is unknown what it even does.Why are you acting so freaked about that? Why are you confused why no one's talking about it? The only known benefactors are the Mafia. No one has claimed it, and Lenglon has explicitly stated its not from her. As doll and TBF pointed out, asking what Survival mode is pointless, since it was likely a scum player, unless a town player who hasn't posted recently did it.
Why the fuck are people not asking what Survival mode is?!
I just woke up and read a bit, but seriously?
I'm more confused about why you put made an outburst about this, because it feels super forced, especially since my impressions of your posts tend to be fairly reasoned with mild positive emotion.
Tiruin/Pozzai:
Also, if 3-man scumteam (why do you assume this? What factors are involved?) how many 3Ps if any would you think exists ?Webadict's BYOR have had a variety of scum opponents and assuming its a vanilla game might be a bad idea considering the past two BYORs. BYOR 14 had 16 players and two scumteams of three players each and a mafia ally, and was the one where Shakerag constantly committed suicide. BYOR13 had 17 players, no mafia and 5 Sks and an Sk-ally, and was the one Shakerag won, despite being the D1 lynch. Hopefully this mafia game will be a bit more tame, although the Shakerag shenanigan of the game has already begun, it seems. So a three man scum team is possible, personally i think its a little on the small side. We simply don't know at this point, and making assumptions is a bad idea. In BYOR 13, no one figured out that there were 5 SKs and no Mafia until webadict told them in dead chat, or by the end of the game.
Spoiler: Notable quotes (click to show/hide)
Jack A T
How's the vote on Tea going? Whose your second/third choice for the rope right now?
Post by: Persus13 on June 04, 2017, 04:19:12 pm
Post by: doll on June 04, 2017, 04:22:05 pm
I'll elaborate on this (a lot) when I get time in ~15 hours, but his comments on WIFOM support the subsequent claim that he is a scum redirector, and he's not tried to hunt in his dump since returning.
Post by: Lenglon on June 04, 2017, 04:55:03 pm
Post by: Lenglon on June 04, 2017, 04:56:37 pm
Post by: Lenglon on June 04, 2017, 05:02:22 pm
Post by: 4maskwolf on June 04, 2017, 05:31:28 pm
Allow me to list my problems in a shorthand form. Very few scumreads with most of them being on strong players who, if not scum, could be a danger to the scumteam? Check. A lot of reads that give little more description than buzzwords like "content" and "activity"? Check. Agreeing with a person voting on you, a reasonably common scum strategy to try and buy some capital with said player? Check. Seemingly arbitrary town/scum values to some players in the middle range? Check.
Now, a more specific conversation on that last point: I specifically dislike his reads on me, OSG, and Tea. Let's start with Tea, who I feel was given a rather arbitrary neutral read. He justifies this read with "nothing unusual enough to base a read on" but let's look at another player like that, I didn't do anything particularly unusual when I was active, and he gave me a "was town but now leaning neutral/third-party" (I'll get to that in a minute). In addition, everything he said about Tea would indicate a small town read, from "gut feeling to trust her" to "active, lots of content" and yet he hesitates to give her the town read that his description of her actions would warrant without giving any points against her. This feels very much like a scum trying not to place his scumbuddy too high on his reads list and if flabort is scum I'd say there's better than average odds that Tea is too.
Now, OSG's. The player who has barely posted this game even by my standards. The guy who is asking to be replaced. And yet for some reason flabort decides "oh yeah, OSG is pulling some kind of active-lurking gambit" and then places as neutral despite this accusation. I have very, very rarely seen anyone lie about their rationale for not being in a game when they explain real life circumstances: in fact, I've never seen it. The most recent time I saw a scum actively try to avoid attention by disappearing off the face of the planet was TBF in Paranormal 25 and he never gave an explanation for that behavior. Deciding that this is an activelurking gambit of some kind is just silly and casts needless shade on what is currently an empty slot, and provides nothing to the game itself.
Now, mine. I have no problem with people calling me out on my inactivity, especially when it's well-deserved (sorry again...). What I do have a problem with is arbitrary changes to people's reads based on inactivity that don't take into account what benefit the inactivity might have to that player as various roles. In my case, there was literally no benefit in going inactive: I had a decent position built up and as town, scum, or third-party I would want to further that strength in order to further my goals in the rest of the game. Going AFK provided no tangible benefit because there was no suspicion to avoid, no unfortunate events to allow to fade from memory, and no reason why I should hold back on my thoughts in a game where I could theoretically die at any moment. Thus, like with most long periods of inactivity, it is NIA: make up your mind on what I am based on what I say and don't say, rather than a work-induced period of absence.
Also, flabort, do you actually have an explanation for why you called me "leaning third party" or is that just filler too like so much else of your reads?
Post by: Lenglon on June 04, 2017, 05:45:10 pm
unvote
welcome back.
I look forward to you finishing your review.
Post by: 4maskwolf on June 04, 2017, 06:37:48 pm
...Don't expect too much from it, most of the stuff that I miss gets filed away in the back of my brain for later use unless I see something particularly egregious. As a general rule if I can't respond the day of to something and it wasn't addressed to/about me I won't bring it up even if I notice something about it, especially on Day one, because it's a lot of effort for something that's likely almost lost to the memory of the poster and questioning it just muddies the waters. They're also less effective things to read me off of since I have a long time to think about my responses and could thus, assuming I'm scum, find a townie response to anything I pleased.
unvote
welcome back.
I look forward to you finishing your review.
That being said, now that I'm back I'll be able to actually respond to things in the moment so hey, more content from me. Joy.
Post by: Lenglon on June 04, 2017, 06:44:55 pm
are there any people you would swap out on that list of three D1 kills?
Post by: Tiruin on June 04, 2017, 09:52:17 pm
Tiruin/Pozzai:Oh right .-. forgot that BYOR is unconventional gameplay.Also, if 3-man scumteam (why do you assume this? What factors are involved?) how many 3Ps if any would you think exists ?Webadict's BYOR have had a variety of scum opponents and assuming its a vanilla game might be a bad idea considering the past two BYORs. BYOR 14 had 16 players and two scumteams of three players each and a mafia ally, and was the one where Shakerag constantly committed suicide. BYOR13 had 17 players, no mafia and 5 Sks and an Sk-ally, and was the one Shakerag won, despite being the D1 lynch. Hopefully this mafia game will be a bit more tame, although the Shakerag shenanigan of the game has already begun, it seems. So a three man scum team is possible, personally i think its a little on the small side. We simply don't know at this point, and making assumptions is a bad idea. In BYOR 13, no one figured out that there were 5 SKs and no Mafia until webadict told them in dead chat, or by the end of the game.Spoiler: Notable quotes (click to show/hide)
>_>
Well at least it makes me magnetizing a lot better I guess :V All malevolence to me! [So I can boop you on the nose back. HAH!]
TBF seems scummy because his posts are low on substance. He makes cases on people that only exist because he ignores things they say (see my vote on him (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164260.msg7472476#msg7472476)). Sometimes it seems like he's just pushing a lynch to push a lynch and not to actually find scum.To share a bit of my notes--TBF is glaringly neutral because he's displaying a total lack of towniness he had in that one game doll is grumpy at him about, and more on because there's a rather major lack of his activity and content this game thus far <_<
[...]
But I've learned not to see him scummy just because of that, as it's still a work in progress.
TBF: I'd like to ask you a few things; first is what do you think about people's insights or perspectives of you thus far. Second is what do you think of your own activity and content thus far. :O
ALso TDS: admit it. You were busy winning 15-rune wins for Bay12 in DCSS rather than playing here because you were totally busy in the tournament that coincidentally happened at the time this game is running. And more.
:P
But seriously why the active-lurking @_@
TDS/Flabort/4mask, and others who were inactive. I'd like to ask what you think about others in a way that you'll follow up on them later on {I'll give my own but still busy x.x}; rather than an ordinal list that would place people on a tangible position over others, who do you see as important to communicate with and;
who will you follow up on later, regardless of N1?
Even without a full analysis of what all has gone on I have huge problems with flabort's so-called "reads list" that I'd like to talk about for a moment.Oooo info! :3
Now I'm somewhat divided between wondering if you're voting him because you're scum, or he's scum, or both of you are town. Because you can't both be mafia given what you both did.
Spoiler: Also the first line of his post was rather...all in one. (click to show/hide)
But that one statement from me to you is about how you noted down the people who weren't that active in his post.
OSG was, actually, active (and you can see it in his post history :P Like, seriously.)
And, honestly and personally--active lurking is widely emphasized; OVER-emphasized, as I'd believe, as a SCUMtell, because context defines the 'tell', and in how many games I recall with people who have done such things, there is little correlation on the people doing it and them being scum. It is MOREso that the people doing it have a certain pattern to how they do it, and their relation to their day-play.
Rather than them being scum.
Next...I think you didn't do your research and moreso poked him just because of what was present in this thread. You have a nice bit of insight there too!
Quote
[...]What I do have a problem with is arbitrary changes to people's reads based on inactivity that don't take into account what benefit the inactivity might have to that player as various roles. In my case, there was literally no benefit in going inactive: I had a decent position built up and as town, scum, or third-party I would want to further that strength in order to further my goals in the rest of the game[...]...But it's personal in perspective.
So what stood out on your case on Flabort? How he made his comparisons? How does that make him scummy?
Post by: Pozzai on June 04, 2017, 10:15:52 pm
dealing with that kind of person is exhausting.I guess it's lucky I'm dying tonight then, eh?
So I've looked over some of the more questionable ones and I guess these are my reads in order of most to least town:
doll
Shakerag (via Lenglon)
Lenglon
Pozzai
Persus13
4maskwolf
Tea
hector13
TolyK
Jack A T
Tiruin
origamascienceguy
TheBiggerFish
TheDarkStar
flabort
FallacyOfUrist
Besides placing themselves at the top and me in some netherworld abyss, does anyone strongly disagree with this?
In particular, does anyone still have a problem with Tea, or any of the other players in the Black&Bold section?
I wouldn't miss any of the bot 3(or 5 for that matter), in terms of raw gut feeling when speaking their name and thinking about how they make me feel, Dark is probably the one I'd least like killed of the 5.
I'll look into re-reading them tomorrow, kind of tried to get a bit of space to this game to potentially get out of tunnels, and to not drown people in more 'spamming', and I will support an extension if people feel they need it.
So in short, the 5 on bottom I'm okay'ish with dying, Tea could be swapped in and I need to re-read Tolyk of the neutrals to determine whether they fit in better than the others. So yeah, bottom 5+Tea+Tolyk is okay for me, till I re-read.
Also, never kill both Tea and FoU together, I feel like Tea and FaU is never mafia together, so if FaU flips mafia, and Tea is shot at the same time it removes a non-mafia, and if FoU flips town/3P I'd love to see Tea's re-analysis of the state of the game as I feel that could turn out really helpful at least for me to re-consider her if I'm wrong.
Post by: Jack A T on June 04, 2017, 10:45:54 pm
Jackdoll: More than usual for a BYOR: I sent something specific in and got a role that exceeded my expectations.
Are you particularly attached to your role?
- You're voting Tea because she is questioning the effectiveness of how you're trying to get information? Or did I miss something?TolyK: You missed something (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164260.msg7472654#msg7472654), though it's pretty clear I was unclear in the main voting post itself. That said, vote's being dropped in this post.
@Jack I'm starting to ISO/LurkerTrack Persus now, can you go into more detail about your read on them?Pozzai: One of the less memorable players this game, but he often is. At the time of my read post, he had four posts. This one stood out. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164260.msg7471748#msg7471748) There, he's clearly engaged in the game, and questioning widely (and about serious topics, not just RVS junk). Has actual suspects, too. Generally a good sign: the appearance of caring about how people behave in-thread and wanting to gain information. He's kept that up in his return, at a glance, and his frustration with reading the less-active players feels real.
That said, I'm cautious about my read. Persus has long been one of the players I have the most trouble reading.
Tea: Unvote. My growing unease about the vote was justified. The oddly-aimed questions were less the efforts of scum trying to look good than those of someone very frustrated and trying to handle it. Frustration that I misread as a much weaker and more common form of unease/discomfort routinely seen under pressure, as opposed to what was actually going on (which became far clearer with the Pozzai interaction).
I wooooooould like to know while I have your attention more about your opinion of Fallacy. You mentioned that his TolyK push is the main thing he's done - what's your assessment of that push?Short and without much commitment. His responses to my questions (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164260.msg7471314#msg7471314) when I accepted TolyK's deal exemplify this. "Potential threat." "Potentially questionable." This is pretty much the tone of his read on TolyK as well: a shrug of semi-suspicion from a player who never really left RVS.
Speaking of his reads...
Fallacy's reads (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164260.msg7472865#msg7472865) come off as manufactured, existing for the sake of letting Fallacy post reads. Why do I say this? They come off as reflecting neither analysis nor, outside of the TolyK shrug, a personal view of other players gained from observation. Everything but the TolyK shrug could have been written by anyone, and the list is largely just a quick stratification of players by loose content levels, hastily determined. Nothing shows a distinct FoU way of looking at this game. It is as if there were few to no thoughts on non-TolyK players, so they were thrown on a loose activity/content list.
That said, it's clear that part of the issue was that Fallacy is busy, which gets in the way.
Hmmm... no, I won't comment on the sitting votes. But I'll do the next best thing in my next post, and go over each person's voting history during my reads.flabort: Alright, that's not quite what I wanted, but it could theoretically lead to similar engagement with the major issues of the time, so...
[mentions the votes of three players, including himself, then completely stops.]...I guess I look forward to you doing it. Look. I asked you for comments on the current votes to force you, the distant observer, to engage with a wide set of immediate issues. You refused for some reason (please explain). Alright. You promised an alternative, something you would do immediately instead of the sitting vote comments. Alright. You then proceeded to not even do that. More precisely, you put a token effort in for a little bit, then stopped even trying to look like you were answering me. Why?
But alright, I could sort of accept this if your return effort otherwise impressed. Instead...no questions, a vote where the most specific point is that a player who has been busy for three days has dropped their conversations (compare this to the rest of the immediate wave against TDS, which focuses on his non-pursuit of cases/lack of questions and his lack of detail), that OSG read, and an intense interest in third parties (third on doll, third-leaning on 4mask, Pozzai could be a third party, Lenglon is odd and could be a vague something...).
flabort, tell me: what are you searching for?
TheDarkStar: Can you explain what exactly changed your read on Pozzai from unreadable (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164260.msg7471863#msg7471863) to non-evil third party (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164260.msg7474669#msg7474669)? Also, you were concerned about Persus13's interactions with flabort in the old post. What led to not strongly disagreeing with doll's town read of him?
Hope to have more later (look more widely, more carefully), but not tonight. Not tonight.
Post by: flabort on June 04, 2017, 11:29:38 pm
Responses in the morning, but I have to tell you 4maskwolf that you completely misread my read on OSG. I thought they were doing an active lurking thing, up until their claim, so I WAS reading them as scum until I realized that they were legitimately unable to post, so I null-read them.
Post by: doll on June 05, 2017, 07:05:30 am
Spoiler: Unrelated to the game (click to show/hide)
So.
Flabort
I figured out what was bugging me - where that gut feeling scumread was coming from on an otherwise strong RVS player.
Spoiler: Can you see it? (click to show/hide)
I'm probably going to get daykilled or something anywaySee, this all but revealed his role; clearly he either had some interest in blocking me preemptively (trying to leave room to weasel in my lynch on D1) or getting enough of an idea of my powers as to know how to target something which could block me. It was like a gust of wind blowing away the cobwebs of doubt when he claimed that he was a redirector: I don't know why he claimed or if it was legitimate, but I do know that he claimed because he is scum and he does want to know my role on Day 1.
This is important, see, because nobody else does (in the town, anyway). Why is this? Because the town knows what it's going to do with me; nothing until D2. I'm beyond saving, largely unstoppable, and self-resolving. If I'm running counter to town interests it'll be obvious by D2, and that's a thousand times better than any ambiguous lynch. Town have no interest in me on this day. That is the whole point of my fullclaiming. After all, I know that I would never be lynched Day 1 if I didn't want to be (pretentious, perhaps, but an authentic rendition of my experience of the truth) and I knew that my hunting would be hugely tilted and unbalancing because of my pure focus on D1 (a good example of this is my read on 4maskwolf, which I'll address later). So, claiming gets town night actions off of me and lets me apply pressure in my hunt to multiple people at once. It also lets me tell everyone about those all important unblockable & extra night action powers and my various post-death abilities, which town need to know about to plan effectively.
Now, why didn't flabort get this?
Well, see, from a scum perspective, my claim is not so clear cut. See, scum need to know what they can do to stop my kills, they see a strong town power role (something which is always easy to lynch - because I have more information than the rest of the town (re: my suite of powers)), they see a player who they have to respond to because they can threaten and carry out multiple kills.
Now, with my claim, it would be obvious if I was redirected. Only scum would want to redirect me, given that it wastes at least one town-owned kill without redeeming itself by preventing my death, as well as totally shutting down most or all of my undeath-powers. At this point, it is obvious that there are a lot of role-inspections floating around. Flabort, as a redirector, had a problem. I would suspect this is why he claimed. However, as he may be keen to point out, this actually is WIFOM. I don't care though, because the point is I believe his claim; I mention role-inspectors only because it gives me a reason to suspect that flabort himself may be the redirector as opposed to a random other member of the scum team.
Now, why would a scum redirector like flabort consider my claim to be WIFOM? Because it induces WIFOM - in scum redirectors. Town redirectors, of course, would just not target me at night. Even the threat of redirecting me (preventing my kill) is decidedly ... anti-town. So why is there all this wine in the air, according to flabort? Because for flabort, it does matter whether or not my claim is true. No other player (that is, no player who is town) actually cares, because at worst I'm giving them a free out to lynch me - Day 2. Since I'm unblockable and truly unavoidably dying, they don't even have to worry about whether or not to night-action me. Only scum need to think about that. Scum like flabort.
Perhaps an elegant way of summing up:
Who does WIFOM benefit? Nobody but scum. But Doll here has created much more WIFOM than anyone in the game.
Reads
doll:1) Either I've fucked up Day 1 for no reason at all and am the most obvious lynch possible on Day 2, or I'm not going to be here come Day 2
2) Therefore, vote me if I am alive D2+ and don't vote me otherwise
Plenty of WIFOM here. Time to throw some more out.
That's where my gut feeling comes from.
If you can follow why I feel that way (flabort is scum) then sure, follow along.
Otherwise, I'll attempt to construct an entirely unrelated lynch on flabort. After all, I just want to see him hang. It's important that he hangs specifically (as opposed to FoU) because his not hanging threatens my ability to kill FoU; I think that they are both scum, and I'll do my best to convince you of that so that you lynch flabort this Day 1.
Post by: doll on June 05, 2017, 07:07:20 am
That is to say, we're not using the term active-lurking correctly at all because I started using it 'wrong' in an earlier game and now it's stuck.
What I mean is, scum don't go looking for town.
Now, it's commonly thought that scum don't go looking for scum either, but that's untrue. Scum have just as much reason to find scum as we do, if not more. Scum want to know where the serial killers are and lynch them. Scum want to identify other scum teams and lynch them. Scum want to locate weak town players and lynch them. Scum don't care; they want to lynch scummy players like the rest of us because just because they are scum does not necessarily mean they are the people we will identify as scummy.
Anyone who read the recent BM up until everyone replaced out and it effectively died is going to be familiar with what is coming next:
Here are all of Flabort's posts in this game:
Spoiler: Wow look at all that post-RVS content (there is none, you can stop looking) (click to show/hide)
Post by: doll on June 05, 2017, 07:07:56 am
Spoiler: Recent posts (posts cont.) (click to show/hide)
I will, therefore, look at every question Flabort has ever asked:
Spoiler: RVS (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Rhetorical (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Actually useful (click to show/hide)
This is indicative of the fact that Flabort has no interesting in trying to determine the alignments of other players, because he is already scum.
Post by: doll on June 05, 2017, 08:42:53 am
With regards to the strength of my read on 4maskwolf:
1) 4maskwolf ha(d) a very established scum-meta of, essentially, defensive play and lurking
2) I haven't seen a game where scum!4maskwolf didn't comply to this meta
3) I very easily picked 4maskwolf as scum in the recent BM along these lines
4) 4maskwolf is not complying to this meta as it would predict his activity on D1
5) Therefore, it would be very hard for me to pick 4maskwolf as scum on Day 1, regardless of whether this is a result of his improving his scum-play or of his being town
6) My time-horizon for this game is Day 1
7) Therefore, from my perspective (until I am dead and start taking actions at that time) 4maskwolf is town
Outside of his meta, my read on 4maskwolf is strong town anyway, so it's hardly a concern of mine to narrow down how much of that is a result of meta-analysis and how much is a 'naked read' so to speak.
Post by: TheBiggerFish on June 05, 2017, 08:49:06 am
doll: Do you secretly have a multivoting power or something because that was a lot of votes, geez.
Post by: Shakerag on June 05, 2017, 09:01:17 am
Wow, that was sudden and angry.Think, man.
doll: Do you secretly have a multivoting power or something because that was a lot of votes, geez.
If doll had that many votes, why would he/she/it need to convince us to vote flabort?
Also, hey I survived the weekend.
Post by: hector13 on June 05, 2017, 09:05:24 am
Wow, that was sudden and angry.
doll: Do you secretly have a multivoting power or something because that was a lot of votes, geez.
Are you just going to ignore my questions for the rest of the game, in favour of pointless comments?
Notice me senpai.
Post by: Shakerag on June 05, 2017, 09:12:38 am
Post by: Tiruin on June 05, 2017, 09:20:59 am
Spoiler: OOC (click to show/hide)
It's like none of my words came over to TBF. .-.;Wow, that was sudden and angry.
doll: Do you secretly have a multivoting power or something because that was a lot of votes, geez.
Are you just going to ignore my questions for the rest of the game, in favour of pointless comments?
Notice me senpai.
TBF: This is plaintive but why do you miss many people addressing you?
And why do you ask something that you can see the effect of, publicly, later on? Forward planning and otherwise; what purpose is that question?
Because Doll can just vote 'a lot' but for emphasis instead of 'hey I've a ton of votes'.
[...]In meatspace; please live and take care of yourself :O You're a rather nice person when a person gets to know you. :p
If doll had that many votes, why would he/she/it need to convince us to vote flabort?
Also, hey I survived the weekend.
Now back to work.
Now Tiruin doesn't seem to get it, but active-lurking is the only scumtell.Well um ._.
TDS, OSG, and a couple others have pretty much done that--while it is, or was, the weekend, TDS has particularly been away for DCSS tournament as I could see his posts, and OSG has been active in other places than post here OTHER than a replacement request [which I'm moreso curious as when I checked, and as a response to 4mask, it could be construed as him active lurking too]
And since this wasn't asked; Flabort
Quote
This... there's two options I see. Either you are a Jester asking to be lynched, or novice scum. #6 and #7 are suuuper suspicious.Why are those two options something you saw and thought reasonable when you read doll's list?
PPE
PSA: I'm going to be on vacation from this Thursday the 8th through next Tuesday the 13th. I will try to make every effort to sneak in time to read/post.You have Lenglon, don't you? :V
Wow, that was sudden and angry.It was partially telegraphed [if I've to be serious in doll's "degree of :I"] by the way he addressed his recent posts before the red wall, actually.
How much of the game do you feel confidently covered in reading?
Post by: webadict on June 05, 2017, 09:37:21 am
Webadict: Let's say a tracker follows the mafioso who carries out the kill. If the mafioso is also targeting someone else with their own powers, the tracker would see both targets, yes?All targets are shown when tracking normally.
Post by: Tiruin on June 05, 2017, 09:42:51 am
Quote
« Last Edit: Today at 09:42:02 am by Tiruin »:-[
^ TFW you try and edit by way of post and you press 'save' while modifying to copy paste because you missed the preview button. -_-
Post by: Lenglon on June 05, 2017, 10:06:30 am
well, first off, doll, my apologies, and what is your preferred pronoun? Im fairly certain ive used both genders in reference to you so in whatever case Im wrong.
next, how close/far is day end and flabort from hammer? I dont want to accidently hammer, and dont want to extend because this feels like a long D1 already and extending I think will just exhaust interest, but am unsure of the votestate and cant lurkertrack to check.
Doll - ive cursory-read your cases on flabort, will be re-reading for details and any questions on the content shortly.
FoU: please post soon
Post by: FallacyofUrist on June 05, 2017, 10:10:04 am
Post by: Lenglon on June 05, 2017, 10:17:40 am
Post by: FallacyofUrist on June 05, 2017, 10:20:38 am
Post by: Persus13 on June 05, 2017, 10:31:04 am
According to the last vote count, day end is at 8 PM CST, which is 9 and a half hours away from this post, give or take an hour for daylight savings.
9 To Hammer. Day Ends on Monday, June 5th at 8:00 PM CST. There is an Extension available.[/font]
We need 66% of all players to vote for an extension to pass. That's 10.5 players, so either we need 10 or 11 players to vote for an extension. We've had at least 4 votes to extend. Personally, I don't think we're at a good ending point right now, assuming TolyK responds before day end.
Post by: Persus13 on June 05, 2017, 10:35:40 am
That last sentence should say "I don't think an extension is necessary we seem to be at a good ending point to the day." Doll has stuff planned out, and people are rallying around lynching either TBF or flabort. Again, this is assuming I'll have time in a couple hours to look through some posts and that TolyK has a chance to respond.
Post by: Lenglon on June 05, 2017, 10:46:23 am
TolyK - please st least FoS your hypothedical vote target. I get it, you plan on not voting for literally all day, but I still want your hypothedical vote.
Doll - case 1 is convincing to me, case 2 is stretched. Flabort has been idle for a long while and the most recent major event to his reentry to the game was my fusion with Shakerag. having said that...
Flabort - dolls case regarding your interactions with doll and WIFOM seems convincing to me, and Im willing to D1 lynch you over it unless you can counter it well. I also agree with 4mask's analysis of your readslist, now that he pointed it out, and in a comparison of lynching you and lynching FoU it seems that more people have interacted with you so Im guessing that lynching you will give us more information.
PPE:
eh? @ lynching TBF - I missed that rally somehow. whos voting him?
Post by: Pozzai on June 05, 2017, 10:46:41 am
His whole "why not just waste a scum nk instead of claiming to suicide" not followed up by any other pressure or attempts to undermine Doll, and later(albeit a fair bit later) just accepts the "well it'll be self-resolving" status of the whole deal seems natural and suspicious in a "I worry because I do not know" kind of way.
It's not anything "solid" but something I feel puts him above Flabort, TBF and Tea to me.
Post by: Pozzai on June 05, 2017, 10:47:39 am
eh? @ lynching TBF - I missed that rally somehow. whos voting him?
TDS, Tiruin and myself I think are the votes currently.
Post by: Lenglon on June 05, 2017, 10:50:37 am
Why?eh? @ lynching TBF - I missed that rally somehow. whos voting him?
TDS, Tiruin and myself I think are the votes currently.
Post by: Shakerag on June 05, 2017, 10:55:06 am
Post by: Pozzai on June 05, 2017, 10:55:16 am
TDS, Tiruin and myself I think are the votes currently.Why?
[/quote]
I feel like I've gone over that a fair few times over the course of the thread. The questions that lead no where/that they seem to not care for answers about and a lack of fairly logical gaps at times. It's in my readslists, I'll find it for you when I get done re-reading FoU
Post by: TheDarkStar on June 05, 2017, 10:57:18 am
Post by: Pozzai on June 05, 2017, 10:57:50 am
Can you walk me through your thoughts on Tolyk throughout the day?
What actions made you see him as one way or the other and how did that change?
Post by: Pozzai on June 05, 2017, 11:06:46 am
"TBF, opportunistic, originally called a Tea-Pozzai interaction weird, later as pressure arises on Pozzai, jumps it and joins in to second it, saying the weird interaction is now based on Pozzai buddying. Inability or unwillingness to answer questions as to point out where exactly those buddy interactions take place past "somewhere in this sentence" and to respond to where the line between a discussion of reads and a buddy attempt go and what they look for.
Slight shade throwing for not reading up on past games, yet hasn't shown any interest in exploring past games of Pozzai or Tea.
Doesn't seem to care about answers they get. Ie not checking or asking for the reads they initially asked for, missing answers repeatedly.
Small arrow upwards for the obliviousness of their own being. Seems fairly non-self-aware."
From #412 and
Unvote, Vote TBF
I don't feel superstrong about the TBF thing, a bunch of the things I have issues with is logic based, and Lenglon says it's not exactly TBF's forte. It also seems "too easy" in that everyone is basically "yeah we can kill off TBF" which is normally a huge warning sign that something is wrong, but if it's just a bunch of 3Ps instead of a mafia team, maybe irrelevant?
From #502
In-between in our little exchange where I asked you to talk about what meta you had on them if any which you answered in #428 I think?
Post by: Pozzai on June 05, 2017, 11:09:21 am
@Fallacy
Can you walk me through your thoughts on Tolyk throughout the day?
What actions made you see him as one way or the other and how did that change?
EBWOP just in case.
Post by: Lenglon on June 05, 2017, 11:14:18 am
Oh, that.Quote from: PozzaiTDS, Tiruin and myself I think are the votes currently.Why?
I feel like I've gone over that a fair few times over the course of the thread. The questions that lead no where/that they seem to not care for answers about and a lack of fairly logical gaps at times. It's in my readslists, I'll find it for you when I get done re-reading FoU
That's just TBF being TBF.
unless it gets particularly eggregious, we run out of other people to vote, or what gets skipped gets suspicious, dont bother worrying about it.
Welcome to the wtf-tbf-bandwagon. we have lemonade. no cookies though, sorry. already ate em.
When I said hes a permanant nullread, I wasnt kidding around. Ive never seen him act towny, as any alignment.
Post by: Pozzai on June 05, 2017, 11:17:22 am
Oh, that.Quote from: PozzaiTDS, Tiruin and myself I think are the votes currently.Why?
I feel like I've gone over that a fair few times over the course of the thread. The questions that lead no where/that they seem to not care for answers about and a lack of fairly logical gaps at times. It's in my readslists, I'll find it for you when I get done re-reading FoU
That's just TBF being TBF.
unless it gets particularly eggregious, we run out of other people to vote, or what gets skipped gets suspicious, dont bother worrying about it.
Welcome to the wtf-tbf-bandwagon. we have lemonade. no cookies though, sorry. already ate em.
When I said hes a permanant nullread, I wasnt kidding around. Ive never seen him act towny, as any alignment.
Your meta on him was basically the main thing that didn't just make me double-down on him hard.
I am probably just going to move to Flabort despite being slightly salty about my initial play being called "bad" by Doll when he's basically saying the same thing I called Flabort out for like 600pages ago :P
What do you think about TDS?
Post by: Lenglon on June 05, 2017, 11:22:33 am
hes not posted enough of signifigance.
Post by: TheDarkStar on June 05, 2017, 11:23:23 am
TDS? I think hes asleep at the keyboard. he is a void where a player should be. he is the gap in presence that has fallen below the lynchline (aka TBF) simply through lack of existing.
hes not posted enough of signifigance.
It was also the weekend. People are usually less active over the weekend.
Post by: Pozzai on June 05, 2017, 11:27:32 am
But if I am scum(as TBF thinks at that time) and I get shot, either the next step you'd go to is surely either "lets go through the two scenarioes scum!Pozzai and town!Pozzai" or if skipping that initially, consider me a hit as scum(because that mirrors your belief) in which case the answer should NEVER be killing Doll, even if they survived, because they'd either have shot a teammate, they're an SK-type or they made a fake claim for "the play".
He answers that question like a person that either thinks, or knows that I'm town, or at least non-teamed scum.
Post by: TolyK on June 05, 2017, 11:32:54 am
Extend if possible, because I really really need to finish one thing tonight. :P
Quick post on some of the things directed at me, though. I'm sure I missed some while redoing but ugh. I'll reread and re-READ everyone if possible, but I guess an extension won't go through? We seem to be short.
Lenglon:
TolyK - please st least FoS your hypothedical vote target. I get it, you plan on not voting for literally all day, but I still want your hypothedical vote.Tiruin has triggered my scumdar, and I wanted to see her behavior after that point. If you want a tl;dr: I feel she's responsible for the Survival mode scum helper thing, for <reasons>. She doesn't seem to have posted much, so unfortunately it's been hard for me to confirm my suspicions... There's one post which I've saved, but that's not much.
There's also FoU who's basically had a half-assed attempt at pressuring me (note: which I called out after he stopped pressing), but I haven't paid too much attention to the rest of his posts as of yet.
I'm totally fine with lynching Flabort as he's been demonstrably useless (active-lurking) and I haven't gotten anything else pinned down as well as others have.
Persus13:
TolyK:... So, things happened. One we get a public explanation of. Second is unknown what it even does.Why are you acting so freaked about that? Why are you confused why no one's talking about it? The only known benefactors are the Mafia. No one has claimed it, and Lenglon has explicitly stated its not from her. As doll and TBF pointed out, asking what Survival mode is pointless, since it was likely a scum player, unless a town player who hasn't posted recently did it.
Why the fuck are people not asking what Survival mode is?!
I just woke up and read a bit, but seriously?
I'm more confused about why you put made an outburst about this, because it feels super forced, especially since my impressions of your posts tend to be fairly reasoned with mild positive emotion.
Well, I did just wake up. :P
Jokes aside, this was the thing that struck me immediately - nobody was talking about survival mode. It seems strange to me that there is no reference of any "mode" in someone else's role. Also, my thoughts went to it possibly being a town move: you get some bonus, with the drawback that scum get a free action (basically). Maybe it was indeed an overreaction, as there has been no more information on it, but we didn't even get any attempts to get information on it!
I would agree that I usually am pretty reasoned, mostly because I play with regards to mechanics more than reading people (of course, I do both, but more biased towards mechanics than other people...). What I should've done at the end of that was ask this:
Everyone: Do you have any reference to different "Game modes"?
The reason I'm asking: Given my (albeit limited) information, it seems that role ideas are reciprocated between several players, i.e. similar role mechanics are at work. This is fairly standard in Wuba BYOR's, iirc, so it was odd that nobody has any info about the modes. There's also the possibility that they just want to keep it hidden, for now, but I didn't really consider that at the time, either...
PPE: wow lots of posts, as usual, while writing :D
TDS? I think hes asleep at the keyboard. he is a void where a player should be. he is the gap in presence that has fallen below the lynchline (aka TBF) simply through lack of existing.TDS has gone to meet his maker. He... is an ex-player!
hes not posted enough of signifigance.
Post by: TheBiggerFish on June 05, 2017, 11:35:26 am
I thought I had answered your questions.Wow, that was sudden and angry.
doll: Do you secretly have a multivoting power or something because that was a lot of votes, geez.
Are you just going to ignore my questions for the rest of the game, in favour of pointless comments?
Notice me senpai.
Post by: Pozzai on June 05, 2017, 11:37:26 am
TDS has gone to meet his maker. He... is an ex-player!
He might be pining for the fields, wonderful plumage though!
Post by: TheBiggerFish on June 05, 2017, 11:47:18 am
Post by: TheDarkStar on June 05, 2017, 11:49:30 am
TDS: Can you speak more to your Persus and 4mask reads?
...4mask read? I haven't made one yet.
That said, his contributions so far: this post (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164260.msg7475046#msg7475046) where he pressures flabort (amid a sea of people voting for flabort), this post (and similar ones) (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164260.msg7471183#msg7471183) where he gets after Pozzai for not following Bay12 meta... and pretty much everything else is from RVS. He has other posts, but none of them have much content. I'm leaning scum because of his lack of strong scumhunting and possibly scum third party because of his low activity.
Persus: In this post (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164260.msg7471748#msg7471748) he tries to move away from RVS quickly by asking fairly aggressive questions. A while later (after a bit of followup/other stuff) he continues being passive-aggressive here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164260.msg7472845#msg7472845). It's basically a null-tell - yes, he's pressuring people, but on the other hand he's not voting and seems noncommittal. And then there's this post (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164260.msg7474952#msg7474952), where the most notable thing is his vote on TolyK. This is a very strange vote, because TolyK is pointing out the fact that no one is discussing the Survival Mode thing and Persus finds it scummy. My question is why it would be scummy to point that out, since scum have no motivation to discuss something like that if they caused it but town would be motivated to discuss it and try to figure out who caused it. At the very least, it's not something that makes sense to vote over. And then Persus doesn't really have much else. Overall, I get a mild scummy feeling from Persus - he does have some posts with substance but even with that he's not putting much pressure on anyone.
Post by: FallacyofUrist on June 05, 2017, 11:50:19 am
@FallacyAlright, that's a start.
Can you walk me through your thoughts on Tolyk throughout the day?
What actions made you see him as one way or the other and how did that change?
Jack:This was the start of my read on TolyK as a cult leader variant. One that can convert during the day, but isn't mandatory for whoever he converts.Do you want to chat? There's a way we can chat in private. I can give more details regarding the actual experiment there. Are you up? (This would possibly eventually add more folks to said chat).Do you want to do a (literally harmless, in terms of actions) experiment, Jack?TolyK: Let's hear it, if it is still relevant.
I'm tentatively trusting you, mostly because there's historically been little I can actually read from your posts (only from actions).
[1]: TolyK: Abstractly, how would you go about doing this to only me?Well, a vote is meant to be used. TolyK: What do you think the odds are that a cult leader might pass their conversion off as an expanding mason group?I'm obviously biased, so 0%.
[2] If I want to give a real answer, though... pretty slim? It'd be a definite gambit to just publicly say who I'd invite and ask them whether they want to join. After all, isn't the point of a cult the fact that alignment changes? I guess you could make a point for trying to not recruit scum or some special conditions for the cult recruiting, but other than that I don't see a point in giving additional information I could've quite easily withheld, were I a cult leader...TolyK: If you were actually a cult leader, how would you go about convincing me you weren't the cult leader and getting my vote off you?Well, considering there's very little I could do to prove I'm not a cult leader, sans opening up all my cards, I would probably not care too much unless you were actively trying to lead the town to my lynch (and potentially succeeding). Since my death would probably be a setback for the town, I'd consider explaining my role in more detail to convince that I'm not a cult leader.
[1] Interestingly, if Jack accepts the experiment, I could more or less prove to you specifically that I'm not a cult leader during this day. I would prefer not to, but I might if it comes to that.
[1]: If TolyK's thing proves to me that he's not a cult leader, I'll... well, maybe. TolyK is seeming a little passive. Might not unvote after all.
[2]: A gambit, sure. But if he wants to make himself look like town... also, I'd think it more likely that somebody'd accept an offer that comes with some warning than one that comes out of nowhere.
Re: Experiment:[1]: And now, as expected if he was a cult leader, the proof is called off.
[1] So, I made a chat thingie with Jack. Unfortunately, it turns out that the experiment I planned won't work out with him, so that's called off for a bit.
We did divulge some information to each other, though, and at least on my end it seems to check out.This is what Jack told me in the chatty chat. He told me more, obviously, but that'll do for now. Of course, if he's lying he's just being consistent, but...Also, if you had the thought of mentioning your role/abilityI have yet to determine my all-powerful true name. I have considered hinting at part of my convoluted role name, though. I will say this in public for now: I'm a modified version of WWI's worst rifle. The time is neither strategically right nor comedically well timed for a name reveal. Are you satisfied with this response?/truename--which may happen while reading this sentence--would you mention it in public?
He feels like he's being honest at least about his role, which he has partially revealed, and it's consistent with that I've expected of this game.
[2] To continue the experiment, though... is there anyone who thinks they have a useless day action? I.e. one they'd think about not using?
[2]: I have no idea how this would be relevant aside for town. Maybe role shenanigans. For cult leader, however, every bit of information helps.
These ninjas.
~~~
Now, the above is the evidence for cult leader. But what about for scum in general?
... So, things happened. One we get a public explanation of. Second is unknown what it even does.This would make sense if you replace the words "Survival mode" with "fusing". But as you can see, TolyK turns attention to something we have a public explanation for. Le active lurk. Or, content devoid. I'm posting! Look at me! What's survival mode?
Why the fuck are people not asking what Survival mode is?!
I just woke up and read a bit, but seriously?
Lenglon:[!]: Potentially valid, but also potentially cover for not having suspicions. TolyK: When do you plan on posting your reads? Today? Day 2? Nevermore?
[!2]Sure. For one, I'm fairly afraid of vote manipulation, as I have reason to believe there will be. Given this fact, and also that I didn't have a concrete read on you at the time, I didn't feel it wise to pressure-vote you. If you had become more suspicious, [!] I'd have voted you, but currently my suspicions are elsewhere (and I'm not revealing them at this time to the public, because I'm curious to see how they work when not under pressure).
[!2]: Bah. Use the vote! As town, it's one of your greatest weapons! Vote whoever you think is most suspicious! If you're not willing to vote who you think is most suspicious, vote the most suspicious person you're willing to vote! Pressure breeds action and information! A vote is nothing unused!
Passivity!
I said above in this post that I'm actually kind of annoyed at you not pushing this. And here you are, saying everyone is null or town-ish except me, who is third party-y. Why are you not engaging me or at least asking questions, if I'm the only one acting strange?Well, I'm pushing it now.
To answer you: time constraints.
~~~
After looking through the whole of TolyK's posts, I am seeing no scum hunting. Zilch. Plenty of talk, but no focused attacks on people. Maybe you can correct me on this?
That, and the threat of a cult leader, is why I am voting TolyK.
Ninjas. Stop stealing my thunder, dangit.
Well, one of them is the TolyK himself, anyhow.
~~~
There's also FoU who's basically had a half-assed attempt at pressuring me (note: which I called out after he stopped pressing), but I haven't paid too much attention to the rest of his posts as of yet.You'll notice I've started pressing your case now.
Everyone: Do you have any reference to different "Game modes"?Nope. Nada. Game modes aren't a thing with me.
The reason I'm asking: Given my (albeit limited) information, it seems that role ideas are reciprocated between several players, i.e. similar role mechanics are at work. This is fairly standard in Wuba BYOR's, iirc, so it was odd that nobody has any info about the modes. There's also the possibility that they just want to keep it hidden, for now, but I didn't really consider that at the time, either...
Also, from the look of things, game modes are a scum mechanic. From what's publicly known, Survival only benefits the mafia. Do you have reason to think otherwise?
~~~
Also, TolyK: are you capable of voting?
Gah, ninjas.
Post by: TheBiggerFish on June 05, 2017, 11:51:37 am
Post by: Lenglon on June 05, 2017, 11:58:48 am
FoU - you missed questions addressed to you.
Post by: FallacyofUrist on June 05, 2017, 11:59:43 am
Post by: Pozzai on June 05, 2017, 12:00:31 pm
*snip*
See my issue with this is you completely skip the part where you come to the conclussion that they're town or cultleader in #297. Your narrative this entire game on Tolyk seems to be pushing them as scum/cult leader, but yet you give them a townread, only to back off of it again fairly quickly in #472, and now later in the day back to scum/cult leader again.
Your response now lent nothing to the explanation of why it went scum/cult -> town/cult -> cult -> scum/cult, like why the sudden two 180s? The fact that you didn't cover that in your 'walkthrough' right now feels like it was a note you hadn't strongly considered, because it had no greater importance to you, potentially because it was not actually a read, but more stuff you already knew?
Post by: Pozzai on June 05, 2017, 12:08:12 pm
I should return before dayend, but just in case I don't.
@Doll if say Flabort does get lynched and flips mafia, but not the role you think, are they the type that could've TMIed the role exists, despite not being it themselves?
Extend
Take this as a "would hammer for extension if needed" but I am not actively advocating, nor do I personally feel it is needed, but merely doing it out of courtesy.
Post by: TolyK on June 05, 2017, 12:15:43 pm
TolyK - did Jack change the mode?Assuming he's telling the truth, no.
FoU: I'll try to be quick.
I can do things with roles (this does not require me to be in a chat with people). If you want, I can have you know part of my role in a specific manner. I'll actually set that right now, since you seem to legitimately think I'm a cult leader.
Re: gambit: I would agree that with wifom, this leads nowhere.
Useless role relevance is so that I might avoid doing a useless action tonight.
Where do we have an explanation for what "survival mode" is? We only have a description for one effect, and even that doesn't make sense (why would scum get a free kill during "survival" mode?).
I've posted some of my reads ninjaing you. I can spare an actual read list IRL-tomorrow.
Indeed, you are pushing the case. Congrats. Unfortunately, it's incorrect. You might still see me as scum or some weird-ass cult leader, but there you go. :P
I am able to vote, yes.
And assuming everything goes correct, you'll get your proof once Wuba processes actions.
Post by: TheDarkStar on June 05, 2017, 12:17:07 pm
TDS: can you speak more to your flabort and FoU reads?
flabort:
Most recently, he's posted his reads (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164260.msg7474871#msg7474871). They're pretty normal (and I get a deserved poke for my inactivity). He doesn't cite sources directly but he does summarize what people have done so far. His other major posts consist of various responses to stuff (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164260.msg7474817#msg7474817) where he's actually just delaying responses to stuff.
...and then lots of other similar posts. Basically, flabort has put no pressure on anyone and has done no scumhunting. He leans scum for activelurking, although he does read a bit more closely than TBF so my vote is staying on TBF for now. Until I read through TBF's posts, though, TBF is only a little more scummy than flabort.
FoU:
He posts his recent reads here. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164260.msg7472865#msg7472865) Well, "recent" - they're from last Friday. Earlier, last Wednesday, he has another large post (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164260.msg7471314#msg7471314). It's mostly RVS, although he does call TolyK a potential cult leader (and in another RVS post (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164260.msg7470759#msg7470759) a while earlier he also says something about it to TolyK). However, he doesn't vote on it and doesn't follow that train of thought in other posts. (PPE: Pozzai has raised similar concerns in his most recent post). The most concerning thing is that I don't see much actual interaction between FoU and TolyK - yes, FoU has said that he thinks TolyK might be a cult leader, but there's only one response here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164260.msg7470804#msg7470804) where TolyK seems somewhat evasive. Overall, there's... almost nothing of substance anywhere. His reads are nice to have but I really want to see more stuff from him.
TolyK: In this post (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164260.msg7470804#msg7470804) where you respond to FoU's concerns about you being a cult leader, you note that you have a way to prove you're not a cult leader today. What do you mean?
PPE: It looks like TolyK just addressed this.
Post by: Lenglon on June 05, 2017, 12:29:07 pm
Was your chat invite power a 1-shot?
Why are you using an ability to prove yourself to a single vote others disagree with?
Considering your behavior, is it beneficial for people to vote you?
Post by: TheDarkStar on June 05, 2017, 12:33:37 pm
FoU: Other than TolyK, who do you find suspicious?
Post by: Tea on June 05, 2017, 12:36:23 pm
Also, my theme is so specific (it's 8 words long) that I feel like it's kinda bad for me to claim it at this point.
-
TDS- Why did you only bring up your concerns with Pozzai being 3P when you initially saw him in the top tier of doll's tier list and not your concerns with Persus, who appears to be more of an actual scumread of yours?
-
dealing with that kind of person is exhausting.I guess it's lucky I'm dying tonight then, eh?
So I've looked over some of the more questionable ones and I guess these are my reads in order of most to least town:
doll
Shakerag (via Lenglon)
Lenglon
Pozzai
Persus13
4maskwolf
Tea
hector13
TolyK
Jack A T
Tiruin
origamascienceguy
TheBiggerFish
TheDarkStar
flabort
FallacyOfUrist
Besides placing themselves at the top and me in some netherworld abyss, does anyone strongly disagree with this?
In particular, does anyone still have a problem with Tea, or any of the other players in the Black&Bold section?
I don't entirely follow the certainty behind the crux of the claim WIFOM part of your flabort case, but if I think of the games in terms of there being 6-7 non-town, him being town would be surprising. I mostly don't like him on a gut level but his recent reads are super...narrate-y/lacking depth? I'd be fine lynching him or FoU at this point.
No strong disagreements - I would put Hector (as previously explained (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164260.msg7474467#msg7474467), I don't like his line of thought around Pozzai's play around TBF here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164260.msg7473079#msg7473079); and though this is somewhat TBF's fault, Hector's focus seems suuper narrow lately which is resulting in Hector flying under the radar in my mind?) just below OSG personally, and would move up Dark Star at least a tier. TolyK/Jack are more in the netherworld abyss bubble for me than you actually are lmao.
I don't like Tiruin's pep-talk about "buddying" in this post (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164260.msg7473467#msg7473467) - the friendliness from her feels in-thread context-deaf, also don't like her giving the same read on me/Pozzai. But I think lack of setup awareness (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164260.msg7475278#msg7475278) is maybe more indicative of someone who isn't group scum - so I guess that leaves her in more or less the same standing as for you.
Post by: TheDarkStar on June 05, 2017, 12:59:49 pm
TDS- Why did you only bring up your concerns with Pozzai being 3P when you initially saw him in the top tier of doll's tier list and not your concerns with Persus, who appears to be more of an actual scumread of yours?
Honestly? I read over doll's list quickly enough that I missed Persus entirely.
I don't like Tiruin's pep-talk about "buddying" in this post (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164260.msg7473467#msg7473467) - the friendliness from her feels in-thread context-deaf, also don't like her giving the same read on me/Pozzai. But I think lack of setup awareness (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164260.msg7475278#msg7475278) is maybe more indicative of someone who isn't group scum - so I guess that leaves her in more or less the same standing as for you.
I know this isn't directed to me, but that seems like an indication of Tiruin and/or doll being a third party. Third-parties tend to not want as much attention because if they die/otherwise lose control of the game they instantly lose, but they also don't have that same anti-town mentality as actual scum. doll is a special case, though, because although he's been playing oddly his claimed role doesn't match up with him being mafia or even a normal third party.
Post by: Shakerag on June 05, 2017, 01:32:40 pm
As a lazy ass myself, I could rightly see myself (as any alignment) telling someone else to go look it up themselves. Evasive is not answering a question. Lazy is not acquiescing to a request to find a specific post.Pozzai, please be aware that 80% of TBF's posts and 100% of mine (at least until the 16th-ish) are made via phone. LurkerTracker is our primary ISO tool on Bay12 and it doesn't function well via phone. Also, it is obnoxious to respond to "You havent posted X" with "Yes I have, sometime, somewhere, go re-read the entire game to try to find it!" And doing so will rightfully draw fire for evasion.
While that may be true, the opposite is equally evasive and non-committal. Why not just either a) "I'm on phone, care to link me" or b) use the ~12hours to either find it or ask about it?
The way they demand me to post it, as opposed to asking for it, and the fact they showed 0 interest in actually finding the stuff outside me prompting them about it should ring huge warning bells to anyone >_>
Asking other players to find what you mean when they don't interpret it the same way is pretentious and rude.This, on the other hand, is a valid point.
They also asked me to go read up on other games, but have had no interest in reading up on mine or Tea's and used it to throw shade in my direction.I thought this comment was of note.
FallacyOfUristhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_burn_centers_in_the_United_States (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_burn_centers_in_the_United_States)
Useless, active lurking, now inactive scum
Should spend less time writing bad short fiction and more in this game, because he's losing it
Tiruin:
[In all seriousness, I'm targeting you tonight. Nothing bad, just hugs. And protection. And that's really your role name right? If anything negative happens, it wasn't me {but as my suspicions state, someone {ADDING_ON} to anything I do; there is nothing malevolent in any of my actions :V I am like a stone wall, who can only be defeated if you know my name. Or poison.]So are you claiming that you're unkillable if we don't know your role name? Are you also claiming that your role specifically mentions "poison" or something similar?
D-do I get to hold up your pictures? c:Nope. But you might get to hold up some coupons or a recipe or something. No pictures on my fridge, sorry.
You...can't inspect as an SK unless inspections are role specific. People inspect your alignment :VYou do know that SK is listed as an "alignment" in the first post, right?
So you turn up as third-party.
Somebody be BAIT today :V And he may be SHAEKRAG! V:
TheBiggerFish:
Pozzai:I wouldn't say it's that you are interacting with someone you know, it's that you appeared to be only interacting with the person you know. That said, you've stopped doing it, so Unvote.Waiiit. So first you're all like "Pozzi is scummy because they're only interacting with one person" and then they start interacting with someone else and you're like "oh ok cool not scummy now". You think that discounts the "scummy" behaviour you saw before?
Lenglon:
Shakerag - I wasnt sure what the big deal about his reads were, but thered been a big fight over getting them so I wanted to see what the fight was about and if Pozzai could post and explain them.This makes a whole lot more sense when sober.
Tea:
I feel like I've worn on my fucking sleeve that I have actively not enjoyed playing this game from the onset, but that I am still trying my best to get and give reads. Why I was grumpy in the first place - Jack asking me to react to something inorganic/meaningless - has lended itself to me having been implictly expected to spend hours each day since delving further into something I straight up said I did not want my experience in this game to be defined by. Your expectation that I would wake up and enjoy the game more is, uh, really misguided, though I appreciate the nuance that went into you trying to reaction test around it, I guess? Maybe? I don't feel at arms length; I feel like I'm here and drowning and like there's nowhere near enough hours in the day for me to respond to ~~questions~~ and actually, like, deeply read.I can recommend alcohol to help with some of that. Seriously though, there's 16 players in this game. Trying to get a deep read on everyone would take forever. Just focus on a handful of players (especially D1) that catch your attention.
Ok, cutting off there for now. Will pick up and continue later.
Post by: hector13 on June 05, 2017, 01:53:51 pm
I thought I had answered your questions.Wow, that was sudden and angry.
doll: Do you secretly have a multivoting power or something because that was a lot of votes, geez.
Are you just going to ignore my questions for the rest of the game, in favour of pointless comments?
Notice me senpai.
How typically useless of you, thanks.
Are you going to do anything useful?
I mean you got on Pozzai's back regarding not posting reads, why shouldn't we get on your back for missing questions and then going "duhr, ah fot ah ded ansehr de kwestyunz" without pointing to where you answered the question, or, you know, reiterating the answer? Do you think that's the best way to help town? Do you think that's the way to play the game as any alignment, quite frankly?
You know how you feel about playing with roo? That's how people feel about playing with you.
Tolyk
Thanks for reminding me I needed to clarify that part of my argument.
Hector argued in his last wall that it seemed deflective of Pozzai to ask people for reads on people scumreading after a few people had discussed being suspicious of Pozzai. But from what I remember he only cited examples of Pozzai asking about TBF - which both seemed to ignore Pozzai's TBF trajectory throughout the game and seemed to be talking about that questioning behavior as more pervasive than it really was.
I quickly read through the interaction between Pozzai, Lenglon, and TBF and thought I read Pozzai deflecting TBF onto Lenglon at one point, but it was Lenglon onto TBF again. The deflecting in itself isn't something I like to see, but yeah, I was getting tired at that point and forgot to go back and edit the paragraph about how much deflecting was happening.
TBF gets under my skin. I played a year long series of games with him, during which I discovered I really don't like playing with him because he just doesn't fucking learn :'(
Post by: Tea on June 05, 2017, 03:30:25 pm
PPE: not read flabsy's post yet.
Did you ever?
Like, you asked a question to determine doll's mindset for differentiating {flabort, 4mask} and have since primarily responded to direct questions and otherwise only pressed TBF. By my count there's a few hours to deadline, 3-4 more votes need for a DL extension, and I'm just...not at all clear on what you think the best direction from here is, which is why I feel you're flying under the radar.
Post by: hector13 on June 05, 2017, 03:52:14 pm
I did say during the last WoT I'd get to things as they came up during my read through, I did even say in, I think, the very first sentence of that WoT that I didn't know if things had been addressed, so I addressed them myself, regardless of if I found it to have been addressed later into my reading. If there's one thing you can guarantee me to be of any alignment, it's lazy.
Anyhow, seeing as Pozzai was complaining of this earlier, and you're complaining of it now, I apparently can't trust people to put pressure where it's needed. If you think I'm flying under the radar, why have you waited until a few hours to deadline to pull me up?
Post by: TheBiggerFish on June 05, 2017, 04:01:12 pm
Post by: Tea on June 05, 2017, 04:05:11 pm
vote: flabort
vote: extend ? I don't even want one personally but there's a couple of people that have voted for one that I would like to see get caught up in real time so w/e.
p-edit: ...because it's your very recent behavior that makes me feel that way? o_O?
Also TBF Shakerag and Hector have both recently asked you something more nuanced than that. Learn to read
Post by: Tiruin on June 05, 2017, 04:20:25 pm
Lenglon:You haven't said any word to me whatsoever in recent memory. -_- You can't reliably go 'triggered my scumdar' [/and didn't do anything about it] if I've to be your first mention--unless it's the primacy effect going on here.TolyK - please st least FoS your hypothedical vote target. I get it, you plan on not voting for literally all day, but I still want your hypothedical vote.Tiruin has triggered my scumdar, and I wanted to see her behavior after that point. If you want a tl;dr: I feel she's responsible for the Survival mode scum helper thing, for <reasons>. She doesn't seem to have posted much, so unfortunately it's been hard for me to confirm my suspicions... There's one post which I've saved, but that's not much.
PFP because it is 5am and I woke up and am still in shock because of my lucid dreaming [love you dreams, not loving the recurring themes of spiders] (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=68850.msg7475851#msg7475851)
Post by: 4maskwolf on June 05, 2017, 04:23:06 pm
TolyK: I know nothing of the game modes beyond what's been said in the thread, and it'd be weird if I did because my role is not related to games or modes in any way. Wer mit Ungeheuern kämpft, mag zusehn, dass er nicht dabei zum Ungeheuer wird. Und wenn du lange in einen Abgrund blickst, blickt der Abgrund auch in dich hinein.
TBF: Do you have any cases to push? Because mostly I've seen you being on the defensive this game.
doll: Actually the reason I'm being aggressive during the times I'm active on D1 today is a) because I do need to get better at D1 anyway and b) I don't feel like spending all of D1 bickering with you, that can wait until later in the game if we happen to be on different teams. It's pretty NAI.
Post by: TolyK on June 05, 2017, 04:31:04 pm
Again, these are really short posts, and I hope the day gets extended so I can present a case by "today". Otherwise it'll have to wait until D2.
Lenglon:
Tolyk - You can act more than once per phase?Technically, yes.
Was your chat invite power a 1-shot?
Why are you using an ability to prove yourself to a single vote others disagree with?
Considering your behavior, is it beneficial for people to vote you?
No.
Because it doesn't really cost me anything, and it dispells more than 1 doubt. I'd rather FoU go look for actual scum than a nonexistent cult leader. (Well, maybe they exist, but I don't know of any :P).
No, it isn't, because it's a waste of votes and time. You can feel free to, but I don't see much of a case on me other than "seems like cult leader", which I hope to dispell quickly.
Tolyk... what is this referring to? Sorry, I'm a bit out of touch with reality atm. :D
Thanks for reminding me I needed to clarify that part of my argument.
PPE:
4mask
TolyK: I know nothing of the game modes beyond what's been said in the thread, and it'd be weird if I did because my role is not related to games or modes in any way. Wer mit Ungeheuern kämpft, mag zusehn, dass er nicht dabei zum Ungeheuer wird. Und wenn du lange in einen Abgrund blickst, blickt der Abgrund auch in dich hinein.Emphasis mine. Google translate says:
"He who fights with monsters may see that he does not become a monster. And when you look long into an abyss, the abyss also looks into you"
Thanks for the answer, but why the hidden text? :P
Post by: 4maskwolf on June 05, 2017, 04:33:22 pm
4maskI'm hinting at my role for if we do a massclaim later. Pretty standard stuff. It's not related to the answer to your question, really, I just did it because I mentioned my role so I figured I might as well leave that there as well.TolyK: I know nothing of the game modes beyond what's been said in the thread, and it'd be weird if I did because my role is not related to games or modes in any way. Wer mit Ungeheuern kämpft, mag zusehn, dass er nicht dabei zum Ungeheuer wird. Und wenn du lange in einen Abgrund blickst, blickt der Abgrund auch in dich hinein.Emphasis mine. Google translate says:
"He who fights with monsters may see that he does not become a monster. And when you look long into an abyss, the abyss also looks into you"
Thanks for the answer, but why the hidden text? :P
Post by: Persus13 on June 05, 2017, 04:33:31 pm
Persus13:I understand your thought process of your post, its just the post itself came across as very forced and fake with your use of the f-word and your tone. At the time you posted it, it seemed like you were the one responsible, had expected more of a reaction to it, and so you posted a response of you freaking out to it to get responses. Hence why I voted you over it and questioned you about it. Thinking back on previous play, you're usually one of those guys who starts thinking about roles and how to break the setup, and you answered my question well, so I'll give you an Unvote, but that post still rubs me the wrong way.
Well, I did just wake up. :P
Jokes aside, this was the thing that struck me immediately - nobody was talking about survival mode. It seems strange to me that there is no reference of any "mode" in someone else's role. Also, my thoughts went to it possibly being a town move: you get some bonus, with the drawback that scum get a free action (basically). Maybe it was indeed an overreaction, as there has been no more information on it, but we didn't even get any attempts to get information on it!
I would agree that I usually am pretty reasoned, mostly because I play with regards to mechanics more than reading people (of course, I do both, but more biased towards mechanics than other people...). What I should've done at the end of that was ask this:
Everyone: Do you have any reference to different "Game modes"?
The reason I'm asking: Given my (albeit limited) information, it seems that role ideas are reciprocated between several players, i.e. similar role mechanics are at work. This is fairly standard in Wuba BYOR's, iirc, so it was odd that nobody has any info about the modes. There's also the possibility that they just want to keep it hidden, for now, but I didn't really consider that at the time, either...
Also, I didn't really look at the name, I just assumed that had to do with someone's role flavor. Again, my guess is that its some sort of mafia ability, or the person otherwise doesn't want to disclose it.
Lenglon: What's your thought process behind asking TDS to expand on specific reads? Why those people, and are you trying to get more content out of him or just find them weird?
Tea:
Your response to me comes off as a bit of a conciliatory strawman - because, too tired to edit it or not, I felt like in that post the characterization of Pozzai's behavior around TBF was context-deaf to the fact that Pozzai /had/ (at least imo) given clear reasoning for how he was reading TBF both before and after that set of interactions. In my mind, you pounced and painted this whole exaggerated picture around this moment to ask a question that IMO had been answered multiple times on multiple days.Who is this addressed to?
Flabort's got a lot of attention, but FallacyofUrist is probably the most scummy to me at them moment. He and Flabort both have the same problem of bizarre reads and both are somewhat lacking in terms of actual content or involvement in the game, but Fallacy comes off more malicious from that than Flabort does. Flabort's reads have some headscratchers and a few things I don't like, for instance his suspicions of OSG and 4maskwolf based on their activity, but Fallacy's sole scum read is TolyK, and his attack on TolyK for being a cult leader is strangely specific and more bizarre than anything flabort's posted. I'm okay with the flabort lynch, because of points I've expressed previously and doll et al. have expressed better, and the day is starting to drag, so I'm still not planning on voting to extend though.
Post by: hector13 on June 05, 2017, 04:43:23 pm
Just confusing myself between you and Tea, apparently.
Post by: Shakerag on June 05, 2017, 04:53:24 pm
So... Who do you think we should lynch, if scum isn't obvious D1?Ehh. My gut feeling so far is maybe one of Jack A T, FoU, or TBF. I'll have to revisit this after I get done catching up.
EDIT: After reading everything, I'm inclined to agree with doll on a flabort lynch. TheDarkStar is giving off gut scum vibes due to the third-parties focus. TheBiggerFish ... can't say if scum, but popular opinion seems to be "no big loss if gone". Jack A T was pinging just due to hanging an early vote on Tea or Pozzi (who seemed like easy targets for scum to push a mislynch on). FoU I think was in the same boat as Jack A T, and there was something else that came up during my read that added weight to a scum lean on FoU, but I can't remember what it was now.
Lenglon:Interesting. So do your role's abilities indicate to you that there is reason to think there is vote manipulation or is this more of a gut feeling?
Sure. For one, I'm fairly afraid of vote manipulation, as I have reason to believe there will be. Given this fact, and also that I didn't have a concrete read on you at the time, I didn't feel it wise to pressure-vote you. If you had become more suspicious, I'd have voted you, but currently my suspicions are elsewhere (and I'm not revealing them at this time to the public, because I'm curious to see how they work when not under pressure).
Everyone: Do you have any reference to different "Game modes"?Nope. Neither does Lenglon as far as I can tell.
doll:
ShakeragI think we're close enough. It is odd that no one really called out me voting for myself. But, basically, it is advantageous to me to end the day with at least one vote on me. I won't say more on that until D2 at least.This game is ... a little different, but more on the detrimental to me side. I'm not going to say much right now, but more toward the end of the day I think I'll give out a bit more info.Are we approaching that point yet, or have you changed your mind?
Does Lenglon's fusion have much bearing on how you intend to play out the rest of the day?
Lenglon's fusion was ... well, from a webadict mechanic standpoint pretty interesting. Kudos to him. I don't think it'll change how I intend to play out the rest of the day, no.
The strength of my read on 4mask is based on meta, and the fact that he hasn't followed the behavior chronic to D1 scum!4maskwolf which I used to find him in the BM.
For this reason, players not sharing that meta-context should have a weaker townread of 4maskwolf than I do.
Tiruin:
Hum! It seems Lenglon is now with Shakerag O_oI know, right? I wake up and it's like, bam, Lenglon merged with you. And she didn't even buy me a drink first!
And they both seem aware of it.
But the fusion thing seems like we're one player with two separate votes. And we share actions/abilities.
Quote from: Tiruin
I missed this while browsing on Lenglon/Shakerag but...Am I right in presuming you're just repeating the orange part BECAUSE of your first post? "Leave it to webadict to screw me..." [because I sent in a OP role?] :PWell, webadict is always going to screw me in some way. It's just expected at this point. Not sure what was private..?
Because it's weird to see you reaffirming something that's private.
Did you plan to fuse with Lenglon? If so; why?
If not; do you likeherwhat just happened? As in: Do you have any idea what has happened?
I didn't plan on the fusion, no.
I think it may be advantageous to us both, so I suppose that's good. Otherwise I think it's pretty much like how I laid it out.
Argh. You're too nice. Will you just let me be a curmudgeon? T_TI will also accept it/its and that asshole/that asshole's.Eeeeey, you're the oldest person here and I'll never say the last bit even if you've learned some grouchy behaviors :p You're overall a nice guy.
In meatspace; please live and take care of yourself :O You're a rather nice person when a person gets to know you. :pSurviving the weekend was more in reference to how sore I feel after weeding my garden. God, I'm getting old =P
You have Lenglon, don't you? :VShe's a bit otherwise occupied for a while too. Also, got to keep up to speed on what's going on. I don't want to have to read 6 days worth of posts all at once D:
TheBiggerFish:
I'm guessing scum did it.Not necessarily. It could be, knowing webadict, a town player with an ability that says something like "you don't know what this'll do (and you likely shouldn't do it)" and they did it anyway because YOLO. Hell, I'd do it. But, for the record, I didn't have anything to do with "survival mode".
Flabort:
And what would you have posted?Note: the mode change is NOT from me or shakerag. I have his entire role PM and he has most of mine, (doesnt have my alignment). Neither of us have anything to change the mode like that. We are both town, but he cannot verify that I am even though I can verify he is. we have shared actions and votes, and he can post and/or act for me while im away.Oh, I really would have loved to post as soon as this happened.
Quote from: Flabastard
What about Bastard? :PAlso acceptable.
hector13:
G'on then, though. Tell us what about the interaction between Pozzai and Tir did to change your mind, 'cause it looks like it was just because Pozzai was interacting with someone else (Tir) and that's why a I asked the question you've still not answered.Ahh, bugger. You beat me to it.
Was Pozzai seeking out the interaction, or reacting to someone else interacting with the ?
TheDarkStar:
I know this isn't directed to me, but that seems like an indication of Tiruin and/or doll being a third party. Third-parties tend to not want as much attention because if they die/otherwise lose control of the game they instantly lose, but they also don't have that same anti-town mentality as actual scum. doll is a special case, though, because although he's been playing oddly his claimed role doesn't match up with him being mafia or even a normal third party.Why are you seemingly more interested in finding third-parties rather than scum?
Bonus hidden text! Just because.
Post by: Tiruin on June 05, 2017, 05:01:25 pm
Everyone: Do you have any reference to different "Game modes"?PFP
The reason I'm asking: Given my (albeit limited) information, it seems that role ideas are reciprocated between several players, i.e. similar role mechanics are at work. This is fairly standard in Wuba BYOR's, iirc, so it was odd that nobody has any info about the modes. There's also the possibility that they just want to keep it hidden, for now, but I didn't really consider that at the time, either...
I put in Balance but I don't think this feels like it :V
But yeah I'm serious about having put in Balance somewhere in submitting the theme or otherwise.
Post by: Shakerag on June 05, 2017, 05:06:49 pm
I asked this earlier in the day, but are we doing a theme-claim-thing?Everyone: Do you have any reference to different "Game modes"?PFP
The reason I'm asking: Given my (albeit limited) information, it seems that role ideas are reciprocated between several players, i.e. similar role mechanics are at work. This is fairly standard in Wuba BYOR's, iirc, so it was odd that nobody has any info about the modes. There's also the possibility that they just want to keep it hidden, for now, but I didn't really consider that at the time, either...
I put in Balance but I don't think this feels like it :V
But yeah I'm serious about having put in Balance somewhere in submitting the theme or otherwise.
Post by: Lenglon on June 05, 2017, 05:26:02 pm
4mask - many other players are putting TolyK and Jack as just barely above the scumbar. I have a much more positive read of them. could you go into detail about why they are where they are in both your own and in the town as a whole's reads?
Post by: Lenglon on June 05, 2017, 05:34:51 pm
Post by: Lenglon on June 05, 2017, 06:27:03 pm
Post by: TolyK on June 05, 2017, 06:28:30 pm
Post by: Lenglon on June 05, 2017, 06:31:45 pm
Post by: Tiruin on June 05, 2017, 06:35:24 pm
No.I think she was indirect (AND PFP BECAUSE AAAAA I had an awesome but D: dream and I still can't get over it despite it being 3.4 hours out, and my only coping mechanism was time alone and a darn nice navy-colored skirt)
So let me be direct.
Can you manually create or make a quicktopic between two people as an ability that isn't used up at this point in time?
Post by: webadict on June 05, 2017, 08:50:44 pm
The sun gets a little bit lower, but they bring out the lanterns.
Day has been Extended!
Vote Count
------------------------
4maskwolf -
doll -
FallacyOfUrist - hector13, Persus13,
flabort - doll, 4maskwolf, Lenglon, Pozzai, Tea,
hector13 -
Jack A T -
Lenglon-Shakerag - Shakerag,
origamascienceguy -
Persus13 -
Pozzai -
Tea -
TheBiggerFish - TheDarkStar, Tiruin,
TheDarkStar - flabort,
Tiruin -
TolyK - FallacyOfUrist,
No Lynch -
Not Voting - origamascienceguy, TolyK, flabort, TheBiggerFish, Jack A T,
Extension - TheBiggerFish, flabort, 4maskwolf, Tiruin, FallacyOfUrist, Shakerag, TheDarkStar, TolyK, Pozzai, Tea,
9 To Hammer. Day Ends on Wednesday, June 7th at 8:00 PM CST. There is no Extension available.
Quote from: Current Rules
Survival - The Mafiakill does not count toward the 1 action per Phase limit.
Post by: Pozzai on June 05, 2017, 08:57:18 pm
It strikes me as really odd that Flabort's last post talks about how he'd return with information today and never shows up.
Feels very much like anti-spew mode, which could turn out interesting given we just got an extension.
Post by: Persus13 on June 05, 2017, 09:19:20 pm
Post by: Pozzai on June 05, 2017, 09:32:04 pm
anti-spew mode? What's that mean?
Anti-spew is the description of "scum attempting not to give reads for town to analyse" when they're going down.
Ie if Flabort had died and flipped scum, we'd have very little in terms of interactions-stances to find his potential partners from, which is beneficial for scum.
A town is much more likely to be interested in actually leaving a legacy to provide town with information to win despite their demise.
Post by: Persus13 on June 05, 2017, 09:34:38 pm
Post by: webadict on June 05, 2017, 10:53:39 pm
Additionally, if your ability does NOT say Day or Night (It says #-Shot or Any), then it can be used during ANY Phase.
Just reiterating.
Post by: FallacyofUrist on June 05, 2017, 10:59:28 pm
This, I'll have to think about.
TolyK has given me something to think about. That said, it doesn't change the lack of scum hunting from him, so I'm not currently changing my vote.
Post by: TheDarkStar on June 05, 2017, 11:16:58 pm
TheDarkStar:I know this isn't directed to me, but that seems like an indication of Tiruin and/or doll being a third party. Third-parties tend to not want as much attention because if they die/otherwise lose control of the game they instantly lose, but they also don't have that same anti-town mentality as actual scum. doll is a special case, though, because although he's been playing oddly his claimed role doesn't match up with him being mafia or even a normal third party.Why are you seemingly more interested in finding third-parties rather than scum?
Bonus hidden text! Just because.
I'm not. I think TBF and FoU are scummy rather than third-party-ish, but there are people who fall outside of the normal town/scum range that I read as third party. What makes you think I'm more interested in third parties?
this is invisible too
Post by: TheDarkStar on June 05, 2017, 11:17:20 pm
Huh.
This, I'll have to think about.
TolyK has given me something to think about. That said, it doesn't change the lack of scum hunting from him, so I'm not currently changing my vote.
Do you still think he's a cult leader?
Post by: 4maskwolf on June 06, 2017, 01:08:47 am
With that disclaimer aside, it's time to comment. Jack A T I don't really have a strong opinion on. He had a good start to the game but I haven't seen basically anything from him more recently so I don't have much to base an opinion off of other than half-remembered "he did good" vibes from day start. TolyK, however, has given quite a bit more content since my return, but... so much of it is about this cult leader freak-out that everyone is having
and the game mode freak-out he is having. Seriously, what self-respecting cult leader says he can add you to a quicktopic as a way to try and excuse his later conversions? Actually I need more info on TolyK to form a proper idea, gimme a moment.
TolyK: Look, I know the game mode mechanic is kinda weird. I don't know what it does any more than the average person, and yeah, that is kinda concerning: but no more so than any of the other powers that the scumteam may be hiding (assuming that the scumteam is the one who activated it and not a mafia-ally of some kind or even a town-aligned role using an ability that has a hidden, town-benefiting aspect). Yes, it's possible that it could have hidden effects, yes, we don't know who did it, but freaking out about it helps nobody, and at this point it almost seems like you're making a scene to fish for reactions to it to see if any townies know more than they should so you can mafiakill them. So, can you give me a good reason why we should focus on the game mode, which is at least an evil we know and can take into account?
Everyone talking about the cult leader thing: Why? Just why? I'm having flashbacks to Leafsnail in Paranormal 25 and that's not a good thing. I have a lot of respect for Leafsnail overall, especially as mafia, but he tunneled way too hard on the idea that the game was too easy and there must be a hivemind cult lurking among us and if the other town weren't so united it had real potential to derail the actual scum-finding that was going on. Look, there could be a cult, it's a thing, it's happened in the past, but why is this even being given any credibility D1 over someone saying they could create quicktopics, something that, again, is not that uncommon in BYORs.
Post by: Tea on June 06, 2017, 01:36:18 am
Post by: 4maskwolf on June 06, 2017, 01:44:10 am
If no one has received a majority of votes at deadline, is there no lynch?The person with the most votes is lynched at the deadline in semi-hammer games like this one.
Post by: Tea on June 06, 2017, 01:56:51 am
These are follow-up questions to the response that you keep regurgitating about your unvote.
TheBiggerFish:Pozzai:I wouldn't say it's that you are interacting with someone you know, it's that you appeared to be only interacting with the person you know. That said, you've stopped doing it, so Unvote.Waiiit. So first you're all like "Pozzi is scummy because they're only interacting with one person" and then they start interacting with someone else and you're like "oh ok cool not scummy now". You think that discounts the "scummy" behaviour you saw before?
@Tiruin: I'm most suspicious of Pozzai. Refusing to engage and clinging to Tea just kind of make me think 'scum'.
I don't quite understand what you mean by that question. Yes, I' ve seen people commenting on my actions? Lenglon specifically, most recently.
Because I have something to actually pursue.
Pozzai:I wouldn't say it's that you are interacting with someone you know, it's that you appeared to be only interacting with the person you know. That said, you've stopped doing it, so Unvote.
Whoa there, Nelly.
You start this off with "Pozzai is most suspicious" and end it with "not suspicious enough to vote, however".
Can you talk me through this? Do you think Pozzai is interacting with these people actively - seeking out the interaction - or passively - reacting to something?
I don't, haven't I explained that before? I got ninja'd by something that basically disproved the main cause of my suspicions, as I have explained, repeatedly.
You haven't explained that before. You explained the tone change, but neglected to mention that it was a read change at some point too.
G'on then, though. Tell us what about the interaction between Pozzai and Tir did to change your mind, 'cause it looks like it was just because Pozzai was interacting with someone else (Tir) and that's why a I asked the question you've still not answered.
Was Pozzai seeking out the interaction, or reacting to someone else interacting with the ?
Actually, I don't think you even explained the tonal change in relation to the post in which you said "Pozzai is ultra suspicious, but unvote anyway", unless I misinterpreted what you were referring to when you said there was a tonal change.
Could you quote the post that you were referring to when you say your tone changed halfway through?
--
If no one has received a majority of votes at deadline, is there no lynch?The person with the most votes is lynched at the deadline in semi-hammer games like this one.
OK.
Tiruin, to what extent were you aware of the state of the wagons/extension votes this evening prior to Webadict's count?
Post by: Lenglon on June 06, 2017, 02:47:30 am
D1lynchflip, dollselfflip, dollkillflip, dollsecondkillflip, mafiakillflip.
and thats just from what has been claimed + assuming a mafiakill. having a third of the game flip at once will almost certainly provide us with enough information to start making some much harder cases.
so... Im ready for the day to be over with already. the only decision that has to be made now is the D1 lynch. all my other reads will require a reevaluation come D2. a major one with the mass of flips incoming.
I dont know about the rest of us, but I'm done for now.
Shorten
Im still here, Ill still answer questions, Ill still poke at things that seem out of place, but Im not doing yet another reread without a good reason.
Post by: Pozzai on June 06, 2017, 03:26:19 am
Im gonna be blunt here, Im tired of going over the same soft content over and over with no hard content to build on. tomorrow we will have:
D1lynchflip, dollselfflip, dollkillflip, dollsecondkillflip, mafiakillflip.
and thats just from what has been claimed + assuming a mafiakill. having a third of the game flip at once will almost certainly provide us with enough information to start making some much harder cases.
so... Im ready for the day to be over with already. the only decision that has to be made now is the D1 lynch. all my other reads will require a reevaluation come D2. a major one with the mass of flips incoming.
I dont know about the rest of us, but I'm done for now.
Shorten
Im still here, Ill still answer questions, Ill still poke at things that seem out of place, but Im not doing yet another reread without a good reason.
So you're currently voting Flabort, if he is lynched does the shoot priority if we assume Doll is speaking the truth change depending on whether he flips mafia or town/indie(lone 3P) ?
Post by: Lenglon on June 06, 2017, 03:39:17 am
Post by: Lenglon on June 06, 2017, 03:41:19 am
Post by: Pozzai on June 06, 2017, 04:09:29 am
Anything purely determable by alingment is stuff you can walk through before the day ends to assist with the decisionmaking, whether Doll then listens is a completely different subject.
Post by: Lenglon on June 06, 2017, 04:17:10 am
You just said you think the revealed role abilities will give no information.
what.
Post by: Lenglon on June 06, 2017, 04:21:49 am
This is the horse.
This is the cart.
When you put them in the wrong order it doesn't work.
Post by: Pozzai on June 06, 2017, 04:25:34 am
Pozzai, you are pushing for me to do an interaction-analysis of a player on D1 with no flips.
This is the horse.
This is the cart.
When you put them in the wrong order it doesn't work.
So for instance were Doll to flip mafia, you think after the interactions Doll and I had together we could be mafia together?
The way you do it without flips is you go:
If flip is mafia interactions between x and y would suggest they're/they're not together
If flip is town/3P interactions in regards to getting them killed means x is more viable as a scum pushing.
It really isn't overly hard, it just means you set up a few different scenarioes, and for a forum that were so happy about setup analysis, I am baffled you're speaking as if it's unheard of O.o
Post by: Pozzai on June 06, 2017, 04:26:36 am
...
You just said you think the revealed role abilities will give no information.
what.
What information does that give in regards to other people's ALIGNMENT.
Obviously it will give information, but not from which to analyse whether they fit together as teammates or are blatantly unaligned. >_>
Post by: Lenglon on June 06, 2017, 04:36:26 am
We can do "what if" all day. its a pointless waste of energy. strange roles and alignments can show up in a BYOR, you have to work with what you have, and right now we have almost nothing, at least when compared to what we'll probably have tomorrow.
Are you in favor of extending every day the maximum number of times?
Post by: Lenglon on June 06, 2017, 04:40:13 am
Post by: Pozzai on June 06, 2017, 04:49:59 am
Do you honestly expect to gain traction with pushing me to do a blind interaction analysis on day fucking 1 without a single flip when I JUST said I was unwilling to do another reread without a good reason?
Why is trying to increase the chances of Doll if true, hits mafia not "a good reason" if you could eliminate a person from their shot bracket as mafia if Flabort flips mafia, or add someone outside it if Flabort flips town, that increases the chances that Dolls shots actually will hit beneficial targets.
Post by: Lenglon on June 06, 2017, 04:52:38 am
Post by: Lenglon on June 06, 2017, 04:54:10 am
actually...
Pozzai - Why HAVEN'T you done it yourself yet? You made how important you think it is quite clear.
Post by: doll on June 06, 2017, 04:55:26 am
Shorten
We're lynching Flabort
I'm killing FoU and TBF.
Y'all can nightinspect or vigkill or whatever you want TDS during N1.
Anyone voting FoU
Vote Flabort instead.
Yes, he might be lying and have claimed for another member of the scumteam. He strikes me as someone who might have done that. However, I suspect he would avoid lying like this in a game with what appears to be a number of role-inspects.
According to his own claim, he has a redirect and is likely to use it on me. Therefore, Flabort is an impediment to my killing FoU and TBF. If you want either of those players dead (and you don't mind Flabort dying to get it) vote Flabort.
Killing TBF has added the benefit that he's as persistent and pervasive as a drug-resistant strain of the common cold, so I'm almost certain to be able to get him to play if I revive him later in the game (if he's town).
He probably won't be useful, but that's another matter.
My only regret about this course of events is that I won't be able to simulate Flabort's redirect after I die because he'll be dead before I tag everyone with my night actions. That's unavoidable with a scum-redirector, though.
Tiruin
I just thought it was funny that when chiming in on a discussion about the importance of not assuming people's pronouns, you assumed my pronouns. Call me whatever you want, I don't give a shit.
hector13
I sure hope you didn't tell me information in secret in the hope that I act on it discreetly or anything.
hector13 day-visited me and told me that he was town
I've got no idea if that means anything or if I'm ruining some gambit he had for coming out as a third party to scum or whatever but I don't give a shit, that's what you get for sharing information with me.
PPE:
Pozzai
I'm not changing my targets regardless of what flabort flips
Unless webadict publicly confirms that TBF or FoU are town, they're getting shot tonight
That's it
PPEx2:
Pozzai - Why HAVEN'T you done it yourself yet? You made how important you think it is quite clear.This is pretty much why I called you bad earlier.
You're probably still town though, so it's kind of okay.
Post by: Pozzai on June 06, 2017, 04:55:56 am
Do it yourself if you think itll make a signifigant difference to do a blind interaction analysis of flabort.
Ah but I already have thrown one of them out there. I have been doing stuff but funnily enough these sorts of things tends to work best if you get more people and more perspectives involved. But sure go afk till day-end instead because nothing more productive can be done I'm sure, that's a great attitude >_>
Post by: doll on June 06, 2017, 04:58:35 am
But sure go afk till day-end instead because nothing more productive can be done I'm sure, that's a great attitude >_>He's not going afk until day-end, you're encouraging everyone in the game to go afk until the end of time because you're dragging out a day where nobody can apply any more pressure (because the lynches etc. are set in stone at this point) and nobody really cares that much because the flips and night-actions are going to change all their reads anyway.
I'd rather lose 24 hours of empty discussion than kill the game.
Post by: doll on June 06, 2017, 04:59:57 am
Also, I don't believe in interaction analysis as an effective method of determining alignment, so you're not going to convince me with that in any game or context.
Post by: Pozzai on June 06, 2017, 05:02:58 am
EBWOP:
Also, I don't believe in interaction analysis as an effective method of determining alignment, so you're not going to convince me with that in any game or context.
Which had been great, had you given any kind of hint that you didn't care what people thought or could come up with, instead you asked what people thought so I thought you'd have at least a slight interest in it.
If there never was any way to sway your shots, there were never any purpose of doing anything the last 3 days, because it's essentially all the same kills that would always have gone through, so why all the theatrics about asking if anyone had issues with your bot three?
Post by: Lenglon on June 06, 2017, 05:09:48 am
Post by: doll on June 06, 2017, 05:11:17 am
Actual analysis on the players is great and can always convince anyone.
If there was actual analysis left to do, you should do it. I strongly doubt there is analysis left to be done which won't do anything more than add very very weakly towards the scumreads on FoU and Flabort and the nullread on TBF.
If there is, go ahead and do it.
What isn't useful, is a torrent of WIFOM about 'well if X was scum, they'd do A instead of B even though I have no basis for saying this and can't really justify my speculation since it's a meta-read on a player who hasn't played in a long time and it's a very reaching, speculative meta-read at that'.
If you've got something to add, great, add it.
I doubt you do.
Furthermore:
Which had been great, had you given any kind of hint that you didn't care what people thought or could come up with, instead you asked what people thought so I thought you'd have at least a slight interest in it.Pull your head out of your ass.
If there never was any way to sway your shots, there were never any purpose of doing anything the last 3 days, because it's essentially all the same kills that would always have gone through, so why all the theatrics about asking if anyone had issues with your bot three?
I asked questions because I wanted to know.
Now I know. People have answered the questions.
You can't go from 'My decision to kill FoU and TBF isn't controlled by Flabort's flip' to 'I don't care about what anyone else thinks' because it's bullshit.
My reads on FoU and TBF have nothing to do with Flabort. Therefore, anything you say about Flabort has no bearing on my reads on FoU and TBF, yeah? If you want me to change my mind about FoU or TBF, say something about FoU or TBF. Don't say something about Flabort - all that could do is change my mind about Flabort.
I very very very very strongly doubt that opinion will change by anything other than his own actions, and he's had long enough to present his case and try to convince me (with his returning-to-game doublepost WoT), so I very strongly doubt that my opinion of Flabort will change at all.
Post by: Tiruin on June 06, 2017, 07:02:31 am
Tiruin, to what extent were you aware of the state of the wagons/extension votes this evening prior to Webadict's count?Only upon re-reading past the count ._. because of multiple RL conditions, however I am dedicated to the game and anyone can feel free to please hunt me if ever they feel they have cases to pursue on me.
PFP
I'm also in a very euphoric mood due to a significant life event that happened today--and while the net is sputtery, I'll get caught up.
That said, anyone else targeting Doll tonight? It helps me to know! @_@
Post by: Shakerag on June 06, 2017, 09:00:37 am
I'm not. I think TBF and FoU are scummy rather than third-party-ish, but there are people who fall outside of the normal town/scum range that I read as third party. What makes you think I'm more interested in third parties?Hmm. I thought I had seen more of a focus from you on third-parties when I was catching up. I'll have to go back and take another look.
this is invisible too
Lenglon:
I dont know about the rest of us, but I'm done for now.Bold move, partner. But let's hold off a little bit more; I've got some questions I wanted answered.
Shorten
This is the horse.You. I like you.
This is the cart.
When you put them in the wrong order it doesn't work.
TolyK: I asked you a question, man.
flabort: You too, but you haven't been back yet.
Post by: Tiruin on June 06, 2017, 10:16:57 am
Tiruin:-\
I just thought it was funny that when chiming in on a discussion about the importance of not assuming people's pronouns, you assumed my pronouns. Call me whatever you want, I don't give a shit.
Wow, that's really rude.
I keep this in mind (like all personal things people state about themselves that's important) (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=161267.msg7319717#msg7319717) and despite that, recall that you mentioned you're a dude--so I kept using he despite using she before, and then I get called for 'assuming'. -_-
And treated like shit while at it.
I don't know why you're making your playstyle of bitterness and apathy into something personal, but how you communicate there is pretty dislocated from the quality you've given literally everything else.
We've (me and Lenglon) pretty much apologized if we got it wrong.
"But I don't give a shit anyway". Not like Tiruin sees it as important.
Where is it that you have expletives as casual and desensitized that you can use it online. :v
EBWOP: @Tea--I meant the earlier votecount, NOT the one that just happened right after my latest post.
Doing a readback to make a finalizing-ish post alongside linking my own stuff so that people can check me easier [just links] without having to trawl through all those pages.
Currently, I'm ambivalent towards doll's case on Flabort more on me thinking on the active-lurkingbits; checking his post history alongside TDS and OSG (yes I'm poking him too because more than 2 people did think he active-lurked, or I at least came across it indirectly while reading their posts), he has not posted even half as much in comparison to either, in other places.
Why I'm ambivalent is because I check post histories; I would've gone against it, but doll brings up very accusative ideas that would attract people's perspectives, and that's going in the re-reading too. {If the accusation on active-lurking is legit...seriously read his first TWO pages of this present post history. It's not active lurking [and I DID check who was active last 'Lenglon-Shakerag merge' and he wasn't online then. Only less than a half were but I did not make note of who specifically were <_<[/yay me]}
Also
Quote
It's 8:27pm GMT +8 so I've around 8+ hours anyway.
9 To Hammer. Day Ends on Wednesday, June 7th at 8:00 PM CST. There is no Extension available.
As an aside, @TBF; please work on your day game, it has been mentioned a few games back (nicely too) (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=162468.msg7354837#msg7354837) by the people who are criticizing your day play here. {It's a big post, the line was "TBF is contributing nothing to the game, and he could fix that." which was minus the present bitterness, and more, by other people}
Post by: Shakerag on June 06, 2017, 11:10:31 am
Post by: Persus13 on June 06, 2017, 01:02:58 pm
Shorten
Post by: Shakerag on June 06, 2017, 01:14:59 pm
Post by: webadict on June 06, 2017, 01:35:17 pm
It's worth noting that there is no rule about shortens in the OP.Nobody ever used them before!
But my feeling is majority rules on Shortens. 50% to Shorten.
Post by: Shakerag on June 06, 2017, 01:39:56 pm
Of course you'd require more players to extend over shorten.It's worth noting that there is no rule about shortens in the OP.Nobody ever used them before!
But my feeling is majority rules on Shortens. 50% to Shorten.
Post by: FallacyofUrist on June 06, 2017, 01:44:32 pm
The answer is... maybe. I can make a semi-informed guess on how he showed me what he did with what information I have, and I'm not sure why a cult leader would have an ability like what I'm picturing. There might be something hidden about it though, so that's where the maybe comes in.
That said, I'm still thinking he's some flavor of nasty, given the lack of scum hunting I've seen from him. Maybe it's an arsonist variant. /speculation
Post by: flabort on June 06, 2017, 01:58:55 pm
Furck this.
I chose this game, a Wuba BYOR, because I thought it would be silly and light hearted at the start and serious analysis wouldn't start until after a random kill, day kill, or no-lynch day 1. I thought day 1 would be slow, like all Wuba BYORs. I thought the Bullshit would be quite low, and WIFOM wouldn't start until later.
I'm not sure how you guys let Shakerag, Tiruin, TDS and TBF get away with their bullshit of ending conversations and selectively ignoring shit, but the wagon that formed against me for... what are you even voting for me over again? I can't even tell, especially in Doll's posts.
So I was hoping for a low Bullshit, low emotion game. Because goddamnit, now I'm making an AtE. And I don't even mean Appeal to Emotion, I mean a goshdang Affront to Emotion. I haven't even been able to read everything since my reads because I'm dealing with some serious depression and shit IRL. In fact, it's the fact that I was taking mafia too seriously and every wagon against me as a personal attack that caused me to leave Bay12 two years ago - so yeah, this is my first and last mafia game since my return.
But then we have three newbies to the site come in - one brings a haystack of WIFOM, one brings piles of emotional bullshit and personal attacks, and the third pushes the game far faster than I can keep up with with a crazy number of posts. The three things I was hoping wouldn't be present so I could relax with a fun game. Instead, this has turned into a political Mess.
You want to know why I've been suspect about Doll's claim of infinite actions since the start of the day? I'll counter claim.
I am FHPBYOR, Town. I have an auto that resurrects me, once, and that makes me suspicious of Tea's claim that they can resurrect one person they killed - besides the fact that they'd be using an action after they died. I have two night actions; one randomly redirects the target, and one gives the target a random 1-shot out of a set list of one-shots (Protect, Inspect, Kill, Track, Watch, Karma (?), Bus, Redirect, Guard, Block). And finally I have my own one shot, the most counter of the counter claims against Tea, which gives me infinite actions for the phase that I use it, and it reads that it does not count towards my one action per phase, and that any actions taken that phase can be targeted at any number of targets, so long as I target each person only once (each). NOTE that it doesn't say that it causes me or anyone else to die.
So, vote me off with your BS wagon, at least it will help my team figure out which of you voters is scum (Doll), and I'll be back, with more powers than before (Because my resurrection power is called "Backup Role"), and I'll be confirmed town at that point. And sure, the mafia may consider a confirmed townie a threat, but they also may consider Shakelon more of a threat, or they may decide to look for a different target because the confirmed townies would be protected.
Now, I promised responses in the morning, and then didn't reply yesterday. I pretty much was in a haze of depression what with my medication not working that day, and I'm still trying to "wake up" from my mental state. So I may or may not bother reading through everything that's been said and replying, depending on if the pills kick in today or tomorrow. I swear it's like half the pills in the bottle are placebos.
And it's worth noting that just over a year ago, which is about a year after I stopped posting on Bay12, my little brother died; I was already on antidepressants, but that shit apparently didn't warrant an increase in dosage. Neither did starting college. Soo... fuck.
Post by: Lenglon on June 06, 2017, 02:13:21 pm
Claim: I have an infinate action mechanic, and my theme was related to extremely high action counts. this combo is why in RVS I softclaimed that my theme had a direct impact on my role.
I retract my Shorten
Post by: FallacyofUrist on June 06, 2017, 02:23:31 pm
~~~
Karma is the one that does to your target whatever they did to their target. I think.
~~~
So... you think doll is lying because her role is too similar to your own?
Post by: flabort on June 06, 2017, 02:29:03 pm
...Out of curiosity, does your infinite action mechanic reflect Doll's claimed version or my claimed version more?
Claim: I have an infinate action mechanic, and my theme was related to extremely high action counts. this combo is why in RVS I softclaimed that my theme had a direct impact on my role.
I retract my Shorten
PPE
Oppose shorten.Too similar and too different. Diametrically opposed, one might say. In an unbalanced, unfair way that I don't believe that Wuba would ever do. I can't recall them ever making a power that kills the user as a side-effect, and I can't see them making a power that lets you undo what you did posthumously.
~~~
Karma is the one that does to your target whatever they did to their target. I think.
~~~
So... you think doll is lying because her role is too similar to your own?
Post by: Tea on June 06, 2017, 02:33:36 pm
Quote
one brings piles of emotional bullshit and personal attacksIs this in reference to me?
Post by: flabort on June 06, 2017, 02:35:02 pm
No, you're the one who is causing the game to go at a blurred speed.Quoteone brings piles of emotional bullshit and personal attacksIs this in reference to me?
Post by: Lenglon on June 06, 2017, 02:39:31 pm
ppe: tea posts slowly, the fast posters are me and pozzai.
also, in BYOR 14 Shakerag killed himself and revived himself every day. wuba very much has made suicidal roles in the past.
Post by: Shakerag on June 06, 2017, 02:41:05 pm
I can't recall webadict making a power that fuses two players together either, but here we are....Out of curiosity, does your infinite action mechanic reflect Doll's claimed version or my claimed version more?
Claim: I have an infinate action mechanic, and my theme was related to extremely high action counts. this combo is why in RVS I softclaimed that my theme had a direct impact on my role.
I retract my Shorten
PPEOppose shorten.Too similar and too different. Diametrically opposed, one might say. In an unbalanced, unfair way that I don't believe that Wuba would ever do. I can't recall them ever making a power that kills the user as a side-effect, and I can't see them making a power that lets you undo what you did posthumously.
~~~
Karma is the one that does to your target whatever they did to their target. I think.
~~~
So... you think doll is lying because her role is too similar to your own?
To answer for Lenglon... nevermind, she just ninja'd me. I agree with what she said though.
Post by: flabort on June 06, 2017, 02:43:12 pm
Post by: Shakerag on June 06, 2017, 02:43:50 pm
Post by: Tea on June 06, 2017, 02:47:39 pm
Interesting. Piecing together what has been said, it would appear that (at least to some degree) the themes we submitted influenced categories of abilities doled out amongst the players.This appears to be the case with my theme as well.
Post by: flabort on June 06, 2017, 02:49:47 pm
Interesting. Piecing together what has been said, it would appear that (at least to some degree) the themes we submitted influenced categories of abilities doled out amongst the players.Oh yeah, I meant to say it during my AtE, but I do agree Drunk You is more coherent and less of an ass then normal you. Though you haven't been much of an ass this game anyways.
And I have no clue what my theme did. I actually submitted two in case the first one was invalid. The first was Theme to Gravity Falls (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X2DUpDxFJyg), and in case that wasn't what Wuba was looking for I also sent "Mystery".
Post by: Persus13 on June 06, 2017, 02:58:44 pm
I am FHPBYOR, Town. I have an auto that resurrects me, once, and that makes me suspicious of Tea's claim that they can resurrect one person they killed - besides the fact that they'd be using an action after they died.You mean, Doll, here, not Tea, right?
If anything your role makes doll's claim more probable, not less.
Also, you're making the dangerous assumption that this is a normal game. Its not, its a webadict BYOR. Those things are a category in and of itself.
Also, why would Doll claim something that would be too close to your role be suspicious? Do you think he knows your role?
Tea has 30 posts in the thread. Pozzai, Lenglon, doll, TBF and TolyK have way more than her. I'm confused.No, you're the one who is causing the game to go at a blurred speed.Quoteone brings piles of emotional bullshit and personal attacksIs this in reference to me?
I'm not sure how you guys let Shakerag, Tiruin, TDS and TBF get away with their bullshit of ending conversations and selectively ignoring shit, but the wagon that formed against me for... what are you even voting for me over again? I can't even tell, especially in Doll's posts.I don't see why Shakerag is included on this. Tiruin misses things all the time. I blame it on her bad internet usually. I'm not sure what you are referring to with TDS here, people in-thread have pointed out multiple times that TBF always plays this way.
And I have no clue what my theme did. I actually submitted two in case the first one was invalid. The first was Theme to Gravity Falls (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X2DUpDxFJyg), and in case that wasn't what Wuba was looking for I also sent "Mystery".Considering my theme resulted in half the D1 opening flavor, I imagine your theme will come into play in a similar manner.
Post by: Jack A T on June 06, 2017, 03:00:15 pm
Not much on him (definitely has missed/skipped questions, aggressively unhelpful), but I did notice something.
This is strange from hector. It's a gotcha moment that focuses on precise wording, but look at the context:I don't, haven't I explained that before? I got ninja'd by something that basically disproved the main cause of my suspicions, as I have explained, repeatedly.You haven't explained that before. You explained the tone change, but neglected to mention that it was a read change at some point too.
Spoiler: Context (click to show/hide)
hector13: Please give more detail about your thoughts regarding TBF's shift in wording.
TDS still has my questions to answer (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164260.msg7475303#msg7475303) (particularly the Pozzai one).
what are you even voting for me over again? I can't even tell, especially in Doll's posts.flabort: Quick summaries:
*I'm voting you (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164260.msg7475303#msg7475303) for selectively responding to questions, not giving promised responses, lack of engagement, lack of questions, and that strange focus on third parties.
*4maskwolf (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164260.msg7475046#msg7475046) finds your reads generally strange and manufactured-looking, highlighting a few he finds particularly off.
*Doll (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164260.msg7475488#msg7475488) is voting you (and voting you and voting you) for many reasons. Doesn't like your distrust of their claim, and there's a whole thing built on that and your redirect claim (overstated, in my eyes). Also emphasizes your lack of pursuit of suspects, lack of probing questions (quite a bit stronger)...
*Pozzai's on you for...honestly, I've kind of lost track myself.
*Tea (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164260.msg7475724#msg7475724) has a gut feeling, and finds your reads lack depth.
*Lenglon (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164260.msg7475623#msg7475623) finds the 4mask and doll cases strong.
I can't recall them ever making a power that kills the user as a side-effectDoll's claim is to a great extent a variant of Darvi's role from BYOR 7 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=81714.msg2323871#msg2323871): a point-based system where spending points to act means spending your life. Also note Darvi's power Ice XI, which kills him as a side-effect.
Spoiler: flabort, off-topic (click to show/hide)
Pozzai: Can you remind me of your reason for voting flabort, please?
Post by: Shakerag on June 06, 2017, 03:03:44 pm
Jack A T - the balance of threat (seems to deal with allying against a common threat? Could be related to Lenglon's fusion and whoever did the quicktopic invite thing [TolyK?])
Persus13 - the musical theme for the bad guy of the film Once Upon a Time in the West, composed by Ennio Morricone
doll - denpa (not sure if this theme applied to abilities, but could be related to poisoning/hypnosis based on the Wikipedia article?)
origamiscienceguy - music (not sure if general or actually "music")
4maskwolf - Chaos (it's a BYOR, of course there will be)
TheDarkStar - Recursion
Tiruin - "Metaknowledge. [This is untrue]" ??? Claims a white lie on later, so likely the same idea but not worded that way exactly. "But yeah I'm serious about having put in Balance somewhere in submitting the theme or otherwise."
Tea - "Also, my theme is so specific (it's 8 words long) that I feel like it's kinda bad for me to claim it at this point."
Lenglon - "my theme was related to extremely high action counts"
flabort - "The first was Theme to Gravity Falls, and in case that wasn't what Wuba was looking for I also sent "Mystery"."
FallacyOfUrist - ???
hector13 - ???
Shakerag - ???
Pozzai - ???
TheBiggerFish - ???
TolyK - ???
Post by: TolyK on June 06, 2017, 03:22:24 pm
Somebody asked me if I still think TolyK is a cult leader given the new info I have.Holy crap, I just remembered a gem...
The answer is... maybe. I can make a semi-informed guess on how he showed me what he did with what information I have, and I'm not sure why a cult leader would have an ability like what I'm picturing. There might be something hidden about it though, so that's where the maybe comes in.
That said, I'm still thinking he's some flavor of nasty, given the lack of scum hunting I've seen from him. Maybe it's an arsonist variant. /speculation
Tiruin, remember when you were really really convinced that I was lying about being a town poisoner (i.e. town-aligned poisoner)? And it was eventually revealed that I was a town poisoner? It's not particularly relevant here, as I'm not a poisoner, but that was a fun emotion I had and wanted to boop you with it. :D
More seriously, though, "little scumhunting" is fairly correct.
Claimed themes:Not related, no.
Jack A T - the balance of threat (seems to deal with allying against a common threat? Could be related to Lenglon's fusion and whoever did the quicktopic invite thing [TolyK?])
Quote
Lenglon - "my theme was related to extremely high action counts":|
I'll claim my theme:
It's about AI.
Post by: flabort on June 06, 2017, 03:37:28 pm
Your vote: Fair. I think the first part can be blamed on my lack of focus, and I think the last part can be blamed on my general feeling that there are usually anti-town third parties in BYOR games. But fair enough, I can agree that's a valid reason to vote me.what are you even voting for me over again? I can't even tell, especially in Doll's posts.flabort: Quick summaries:
*I'm voting you (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164260.msg7475303#msg7475303) for selectively responding to questions, not giving promised responses, lack of engagement, lack of questions, and that strange focus on third parties.
*4maskwolf (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164260.msg7475046#msg7475046) finds your reads generally strange and manufactured-looking, highlighting a few he finds particularly off.
*Doll (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164260.msg7475488#msg7475488) is voting you (and voting you and voting you) for many reasons. Doesn't like your distrust of their claim, and there's a whole thing built on that and your redirect claim (overstated, in my eyes). Also emphasizes your lack of pursuit of suspects, lack of probing questions (quite a bit stronger)...
*Pozzai's on you for...honestly, I've kind of lost track myself.
*Tea (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164260.msg7475724#msg7475724) has a gut feeling, and finds your reads lack depth.
*Lenglon (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164260.msg7475623#msg7475623) finds the 4mask and doll cases strong.I can't recall them ever making a power that kills the user as a side-effectDoll's claim is to a great extent a variant of Darvi's role from BYOR 7 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=81714.msg2323871#msg2323871): a point-based system where spending points to act means spending your life. Also note Darvi's power Ice XI, which kills him as a side-effect.Spoiler: flabort, off-topic (click to show/hide)
Pozzai: Can you remind me of your reason for voting flabort, please?
4mask's vote: Meh. I got lazy, because making the reads was taking too long. He wants to vote me over that, I have no problem with that.
Doll's vote(s): So.. they don't like my playstyle. Boo. Well, fuck 'em. I don't see any valid reasoning there except the last two reasons you gave for their vote, which can be excused by IDGAF my medication isn't working.
Pozzai's vote: WAGON
Tea's vote: WAGON
Lenglon's vote: WAGON
I still don't trust Lenglon entirely. Especially since they said they learned Shakerag's alignment but Shakerag didn't learn theirs.
As for the part about Darvi's role, fine. But I still don't trust Doll, I feel like they've personally attacked me for no reason, I still don't feel that everything they said in their initial claim adds up (Especially "Chew on that WIFOM"), and I am very upset at them right now. So my vote stays.
And I can't read that court thingy, it feels to dense and my eyes glaze over after the first couple lines.
Post by: Shakerag on June 06, 2017, 03:52:46 pm
I still don't trust Lenglon entirely. Especially since they said they learned Shakerag's alignment but Shakerag didn't learn theirs.Well Lenglon claimed she was town to me. I can at least confirm that she wasn't mafia because the merging thing meant she became my alignment (town)(My updated role includes her abilities and I can see the ability she used to do the merge which clearly states she would take on whatever alignment I had). So if she went from mafia (or anything with another team) to town, you'd think she'd rat out her previous partners.
Post by: hector13 on June 06, 2017, 04:06:52 pm
I just looked through the TBF material, as his reads (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164260.msg7472593#msg7472593) (such as they were) had moments where they seemed quite real (the Tea nonread and confusion, in particular, feels like his actual position), and I had been thinking about this while away from the thread.
Not much on him (definitely has missed/skipped questions, aggressively unhelpful), but I did notice something.This is strange from hector. It's a gotcha moment that focuses on precise wording, but look at the context:I don't, haven't I explained that before? I got ninja'd by something that basically disproved the main cause of my suspicions, as I have explained, repeatedly.You haven't explained that before. You explained the tone change, but neglected to mention that it was a read change at some point too.Hector requested an explanation of TBF's shift in one post from being most suspicious of Pozzai to unvoting Pozzai. TBF responded by saying he was ninjaed in the middle of the post by strong Pozzai-Tiruin interactions, leading to the aforementioned tonal shift. To jump on TBF for later referring to this as a shift in reads is a stretch. Nitpicky, the idea was implicit in the original response, and TBF is hardly known for precise wording.Spoiler: Context (click to show/hide)
hector13: Please give more detail about your thoughts regarding TBF's shift in wording.
I don't know because I'm quite confused regarding the matter and TBF is so unhelpful
I thought his "tone change" was in reference to:
Spoiler: this (click to show/hide)
But now I think the tonal change he was referring to was the "context" spoiler in your post above, but I don't know because TBF is so unhelpful
The jump on TBF for the read change is probably 'cause I was a bit surprised/befuddled at the apparent-but-as-yet-unconfirmed crossed signals.
It is interesting nonetheless. He switched his view on Pozzai from "dude is totes scum" to "I was voting you to make you do something else, now you've done it my read has completely changed", a change which doesn't make sense to me.
I then asked him multiple times regarding what it was exactly that Pozzai had done to swing his scumdar from "TOTALLY SCUM" to "not scum" (specifically whether or not Pozzai was seeking out the apparently mind-blowing exchange with Tiruin) and he's playing coy, or is just unhelpful
Post by: TolyK on June 06, 2017, 04:09:51 pm
Players:
4maskwolf
doll
FallacyOfUrist
flabort
hector13
Jack A TLenglon- Merged to become Lenglon-Shakerag Day 1 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164260.msg7473388#msg7473388)
Lenglon-Shakerag - Created Day 1 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164260.msg7473388#msg7473388)
origamascienceguy - Requires Replacement
Persus13
PozzaiShakerag- Merged to become Lenglon-Shakerag Day 1 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164260.msg7473388#msg7473388)
Tea
TheBiggerFish
TheDarkStar
Tiruin
TolyK
Shakerag:
So, why didn't you claim this earlier?I still don't trust Lenglon entirely. Especially since they said they learned Shakerag's alignment but Shakerag didn't learn theirs.Well Lenglon claimed she was town to me. I can at least confirm that she wasn't mafia because the merging thing meant she became my alignment (town)(My updated role includes her abilities and I can see the ability she used to do the merge which clearly states she would take on whatever alignment I had). So if she went from mafia (or anything with another team) to town, you'd think she'd rat out her previous partners.
Post by: TheBiggerFish on June 06, 2017, 04:13:06 pm
Post by: hector13 on June 06, 2017, 04:14:21 pm
Post by: TolyK on June 06, 2017, 04:26:05 pm
Post by: Shakerag on June 06, 2017, 04:39:35 pm
Shakerag:It didn't occur to me to do so? Or maybe it did but I didn't think it was worth mentioning. I only brought it up because flabort mentioned something about it directly.So, why didn't you claim this earlier?I still don't trust Lenglon entirely. Especially since they said they learned Shakerag's alignment but Shakerag didn't learn theirs.Well Lenglon claimed she was town to me. I can at least confirm that she wasn't mafia because the merging thing meant she became my alignment (town)(My updated role includes her abilities and I can see the ability she used to do the merge which clearly states she would take on whatever alignment I had). So if she went from mafia (or anything with another team) to town, you'd think she'd rat out her previous partners.
Although ... (now you've done it; you got me thinking about this) truth be told, it's a meaningless claim when you think about it. There are several possibilities:
- We are both town as claimed.
- Lenglon was non-town and is some kind of dual-alignment player now and can win with town or whatever her original alignment is (as I don't have a direct confirmation on her original alignment).
- Possibly in conjunction with the above, Lenglon's original role had one or more hidden abilities that stated they wouldn't be revealed to whomever she fused with.
- I could be scum and lying about the sk-miller claim and she's going along with it because she doesn't want to lose.
- I could be scum and lying about the sk-miller claim and she's going along with it because she secretly retains her original alignment as well and is trying to operate as a mole.
Of course, this also puts me in a bad situation because now if I don't trust Lenglon I can't exactly get rid of her without getting rid of myself as well. Goddamnit TolyK this was not a rabbit hole I wanted to go down :(
I am not oblivious. I am completely aware they merged. I didn't expect the OP to change, though.Why wouldn't it? The player lineup did technically change.
Post by: webadict on June 06, 2017, 05:04:08 pm
I am not oblivious. I am completely aware they merged. I didn't expect the OP to change, though.I gotta keep everyone up to date on the statuses of players!
Also, this game is hilarious for reasons nobody understands but me!
Post by: TolyK on June 06, 2017, 05:29:45 pm
Spoiler: doll's claim (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: flabor's claim (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: lenglon's claim (click to show/hide)
It seems like this is quite the concensus:
Interesting. Piecing together what has been said, it would appear that (at least to some degree) the themes we submitted influenced categories of abilities doled out amongst the players.This appears to be the case with my theme as well.
Can I also mention this?
Given my (albeit limited) information, it seems that role ideas are reciprocated between several players, i.e. similar role mechanics are at work. This is fairly standard in Wuba BYOR's, iirc, so it was odd that nobody has any info about the modes.
Assuming most of the people mentioned aren't lying, isn't this basically the case right now?
It's still strange to me that nobody has gone public with info about the modes. I'm guessing it's a town player though, now. Worth keeping in mind when people go claim it.
Spoiler: Claimed Themes (click to show/hide)
Claims a white lie on later, so likely the same idea but not worded that way exactly. "But yeah I'm serious about having put in Balance somewhere in submitting the theme or otherwise."Shakerag:
TolyK: I asked you a question, man.Where? I'm pretty sure I answered all your questions. I didn't find any unanswered ones during rereading.
Emphasis mine. So, you have a chat as well, not just a role-info-swap carried out by Wuba, right?I still don't trust Lenglon entirely. Especially since they said they learned Shakerag's alignment but Shakerag didn't learn theirs.Well Lenglon claimed she was town to me. I can at least confirm that she wasn't mafia because the merging thing meant she became my alignment (town)(My updated role includes her abilities and I can see the ability she used to do the merge which clearly states she would take on whatever alignment I had). So if she went from mafia (or anything with another team) to town, you'd think she'd rat out her previous partners.
PPE:
TolyK:Uh, sure. I find that slightly sketchy, but we'll assume it's true.Shakerag:It didn't occur to me to do so? Or maybe it did but I didn't think it was worth mentioning. I only brought it up because flabort mentioned something about it directly.So, why didn't you claim this earlier?I still don't trust Lenglon entirely. Especially since they said they learned Shakerag's alignment but Shakerag didn't learn theirs.Well Lenglon claimed she was town to me. I can at least confirm that she wasn't mafia because the merging thing meant she became my alignment (town)(My updated role includes her abilities and I can see the ability she used to do the merge which clearly states she would take on whatever alignment I had). So if she went from mafia (or anything with another team) to town, you'd think she'd rat out her previous partners.
Quote from: Shakerag
Although ... (now you've done it; you got me thinking about this) truth be told, it's a meaningless claim when you think about it. There are several possibilities:Sure. This seems a bit like WIFOM, but I actually am in a similar situation regarding Jack (though I'm the one who caused it :P).
- We are both town as claimed.
- Lenglon was non-town and is some kind of dual-alignment player now and can win with town or whatever her original alignment is (as I don't have a direct confirmation on her original alignment).
- Possibly in conjunction with the above, Lenglon's original role had one or more hidden abilities that stated they wouldn't be revealed to whomever she fused with.
- I could be scum and lying about the sk-miller claim and she's going along with it because she doesn't want to lose.
- I could be scum and lying about the sk-miller claim and she's going along with it because she secretly retains her original alignment as well and is trying to operate as a mole.
Of course, this also puts me in a bad situation because now if I don't trust Lenglon I can't exactly get rid of her without getting rid of myself as well. Goddamnit TolyK this was not a rabbit hole I wanted to go down :(
Quote
Generally when game states change, the OP doesn't change. The exception has been "people have died and roleflipped".I am not oblivious. I am completely aware they merged. I didn't expect the OP to change, though.Why wouldn't it? The player lineup did technically change.
Also, this game is hilarious for reasons nobody understands but me!I know this feeling... Fuck you too. <3
Post by: Shakerag on June 06, 2017, 05:34:01 pm
TolyK:Lenglon:Interesting. So do your role's abilities indicate to you that there is reason to think there is vote manipulation or is this more of a gut feeling?
Sure. For one, I'm fairly afraid of vote manipulation, as I have reason to believe there will be. Given this fact, and also that I didn't have a concrete read on you at the time, I didn't feel it wise to pressure-vote you. If you had become more suspicious, I'd have voted you, but currently my suspicions are elsewhere (and I'm not revealing them at this time to the public, because I'm curious to see how they work when not under pressure).
Post by: Shakerag on June 06, 2017, 05:37:29 pm
Emphasis mine. So, you have a chat as well, not just a role-info-swap carried out by Wuba, right?Yup! Although I'm not really sure why we needed one...
Post by: Lenglon on June 06, 2017, 05:44:27 pm
you say that when I just wrote message 106 in our chat...Emphasis mine. So, you have a chat as well, not just a role-info-swap carried out by Wuba, right?Yup! Although I'm not really sure why we needed one...
Post by: Lenglon on June 06, 2017, 05:50:32 pm
I am unwilling to state my exact theme at this time because it is also the exact name of my infinate-action ability.
Post by: TolyK on June 06, 2017, 05:53:23 pm
I answered this one. I'll answer it again, since I can't be bothered rereading again. :( (I'm pretty sure I answered in plaintext and didn't quote you, so you missed it too...)TolyK:Lenglon:Interesting. So do your role's abilities indicate to you that there is reason to think there is vote manipulation or is this more of a gut feeling?
Sure. For one, I'm fairly afraid of vote manipulation, as I have reason to believe there will be. Given this fact, and also that I didn't have a concrete read on you at the time, I didn't feel it wise to pressure-vote you. If you had become more suspicious, I'd have voted you, but currently my suspicions are elsewhere (and I'm not revealing them at this time to the public, because I'm curious to see how they work when not under pressure).
This is more of a gut feeling, however based on themes and my knowledge of roles, the feeling is reinforced. My reasoning is that vote manip is not-rare in BYOR's, so if I can afford to not vote I'd do that. Since I've already started, I don't see why I should stop this policy.
Also, I'm about to post a WoT about Tiruin, then general reads.
Claim follow-up:Are you sure you should've claimed this part though? Because nobody could've known (they might've guessed?) about your ability name being your theme beforehand. Seems like a useless restriction on yourself, when nobody was asking about your theme...
I am unwilling to state my exact theme at this time because it is also the exact name of my infinate-action ability.
Post by: TolyK on June 06, 2017, 05:54:13 pm
It's far from solid, but it's far different from what's been going on all of today.
Initial reads post (nothing of value, to be expected in initial reads posts though...):
REEDS list! [Made from Papyrus! On Papyrus!]"Please don't investigate" was what initially worried me. Also the way she specifically tries to reinforce the idea (which she generally doesn't).
<bleh>
Also I'm town. Please boop me nicely. [No investigates please; I'll show up town. No I'm not a bloody Godfather. Yes I tell the truth always.] :v
[All my abilites that require a rolename--since this is literally the first time I've played with them \o/ -- only work when I use them :p]Not part of the case, just a reminder for people not to share ability names.
PFP
Well, I've a semi-obvious set of people to target tonight then <_>
As I noted to Jack, Tiruin's posts right about here rang the bell for me (paraphrasing):Why the fuck are people not asking what Survival mode is?!I was :O
With a lot less expletives and innuendo. However the obvious hit me a millisecond after. It's like doll's post but my own :p
Basically:
Why do you care.
It is obviously player activated; it is obviously going to be mentioned if ever that person is of actual teamplay mind--context in the situation, it can also be fakeclaimed, either way it is too early to even make use of anything due to a myriad # of factors.
- "she was active when the survival thing happened"
- "she seems more interested in the fusion thing"
The problem is, it seems that everyone followed the second theme, so it's apparently a problem with my brain and not Tiruin's behavior. >.>
The case is more of a "feels scummy via my gut". It seems like Tiruin is activelurking/tailgating.
This feeling is from posts like this:
Quote from: Tiruin
... which could be due to her style of being huggy-friends-forever and generally lovely with everyone.I'm guessing scum did it.Can you add to this by typing your speculation out in detail?
I would love to know more about your thinking this game.
But there's really not a lot of original content, mostly going off of other peoples' reads and questions.
The biggest original lead, it seems, was this:
accusation of activelurking based on TDS's post history, but actually voting TBF because TDS said TBF is scummy. While initially saying TBF was "glaringly neutral".TBF seems scummy because his posts are low on substance. He makes cases on people that only exist because he ignores things they say (see my vote on him (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164260.msg7472476#msg7472476)). Sometimes it seems like he's just pushing a lynch to push a lynch and not to actually find scum.To share a bit of my notes--TBF is glaringly neutral because he's displaying a total lack of towniness he had in that one game doll is grumpy at him about, and more on because there's a rather major lack of his activity and content this game thus far <_<
[...]
But I've learned not to see him scummy just because of that, as it's still a work in progress.
TBF: I'd like to ask you a few things; first is what do you think about people's insights or perspectives of you thus far. Second is what do you think of your own activity and content thus far. :O
ALso TDS: admit it. You were busy winning 15-rune wins for Bay12 in DCSS rather than playing here because you were totally busy in the tournament that coincidentally happened at the time this game is running. And more.
:P
But seriously why the active-lurking @_@
Now asking 4mask about flabort:
Quote from: Tiruin
This is ... uh. Obvious?Even without a full analysis of what all has gone on I have huge problems with flabort's so-called "reads list" that I'd like to talk about for a moment.Oooo info! :3
Now I'm somewhat divided between wondering if you're voting him because you're scum, or he's scum, or both of you are town. Because you can't both be mafia given what you both did.
Quote from: Tiruin
But that one statement from me to you is about how you noted down the people who weren't that active in his post.So why did you accuse of activelurking before?
OSG was, actually, active (and you can see it in his post history :P Like, seriously.)
And, honestly and personally--active lurking is widely emphasized; OVER-emphasized, as I'd believe, as a SCUMtell, because context defines the 'tell', and in how many games I recall with people who have done such things, there is little correlation on the people doing it and them being scum. It is MOREso that the people doing it have a certain pattern to how they do it, and their relation to their day-play.
Rather than them being scum.
Quote from: Tiruin
Next...I think you didn't do your research and moreso poked him just because of what was present in this thread. You have a nice bit of insight there too!Again, asking people about their cases. This lets her agree with them, then join the bandwagon with good reasoning.Quote[...]What I do have a problem with is arbitrary changes to people's reads based on inactivity that don't take into account what benefit the inactivity might have to that player as various roles. In my case, there was literally no benefit in going inactive: I had a decent position built up and as town, scum, or third-party I would want to further that strength in order to further my goals in the rest of the game[...]...But it's personal in perspective.
So what stood out on your case on Flabort? How he made his comparisons? How does that make him scummy?
Thinking back, I'm pretty sure I missed a few of her posts, so this might be skewed. Either way:
I'd prefer if Tiruin answers this post before others, because I'm interested in her response to this.
Post by: Lenglon on June 06, 2017, 06:00:20 pm
Claim follow-up:Are you sure you should've claimed this part though? Because nobody could've known (they might've guessed?) about your ability name being your theme beforehand. Seems like a useless restriction on yourself, when nobody was asking about your theme...
I am unwilling to state my exact theme at this time because it is also the exact name of my infinate-action ability.
[/quote]
...
well I'm second-guessing it now...
Post by: TolyK on June 06, 2017, 06:31:08 pm
4mask: The initial case on flabort for "filler reads". Not much content, but it was concise. Townish.
doll: A complete clusterfuck. Claimed mega-kill-abilities (which turned out to not be rare?!). Overreactive voting for Flabort a bit later on the bandwagon. Not trustworthy whatsoever, until D2 where we can check his claims.
FoU: Questioned me for most of D1 about being a cult leader, which was weak until Jack and I told him he was not pushing hard; later claim was stronger, incl. "TolyK is not scumhunting", which seems to be most of what's left after I've sent him "proof" that I'm not a cult leader. Still seems to be convinced that I'm anti-town, maybe even an unusual form of cult leader, i.e. can't drop his "TolyK = cultist" mentality. I feel the only part of his case that stands is lack of scumhunting during the middle of the day. So: slight scum lean from me.
flabort: Initial reads are all "can't really say much" ("filler reads"), distrusts doll claim and says tds=activelurk (which was mirroring what was being said at the time by others). Later explodes and claims another "infinite-action" role, citing this reason for distrusting doll. Also claims revive. My opinion: Seems less scummy than people make him out to be. Slight scum. Since he claimed revive, I'm on board with lynching him, since if he's telling the truth we'll just get another round + a reason to trust him.
hector: Uh... not much. "Answered my questions fine" is the only stuff I wrote down on him. So... null.
Jack: I invited him to my chat. Interesting to note that people initially read him as scummy. Seems to be playing solidly, as expected. Doesn't trust me too all too much, it seems, but neither do I trust him completely. We did partially-claim to each other, and his claim is completely reasonable, so I still believe he is town.
lenglon: Voted for Flabort by jumping on bandwagon ("Doll's case is solid"); other play indicates "slight scum" read. However, merged with Shakerag, and seem to trust each other. So, seems alignment==shakerag? *
osg: more like "mia".
persus: Didn't like my outrage at the survival mode, but I "answered ok so not so scummy" (my notes). Called out FoU for tunneling me. Don't have that many notes on him. So... very weak town read, mostly by gut.
pozzai: In my notes, called out 5 people as scum. Seems to have been in culture shock as people went after him; defended fine though. Has been on and off, more or less. Not much notable, including flabort stuff. So... again, weak town read, mostly null.
shakerag: "sk-miller", which is confirmed by merge, as well as towniness; had no real reads or anything but humorous content early on; later on, pressuring a bit and doing generally acceptable stuff. Seems town to me, esp. with merger*.
tea: I have nothing written down for tea. Though she's posted a lot, and I remember her doing stuff. I honestly can't be bothered to go recheck though, this has taken like 4 hours already. My impression was town.
TBF: Had trouble figuring out what to ask. Later started pressuring, also asking questions which end up not leading anywhere, or at least not pressuring people on their answers much. Null-to-light scum read, because doesn't seem alignment-interested, though could be because doesn't know where to push folks.
TDS: ... nothing really written. Generally low new content per post, iirc, mostly question-answering and going a bit after people, no memorable pressure. Null read.
Tiruin: Outlined my case for her a few posts above. tl;dr is not pushing much, "don't investigate me I'm town", quietly getting on bandwagons by asking questions about other peoples' attacks. Partially based on gut, from responses around "merger and survival mode" time. Mild scum read, but subject to change if pointed out I'm incorrect.**
* Shakerag's attitude seems to have slightly changed after lenglon merged with him. It's as of yet hard to figure out whether it's indicative of alignment change.
** Would prefer people not comment much until Tiruin answers first.
well I'm second-guessing it now...I'm actually slightly surprised by this post...
P.S. remove the space after your first ["quote "] because otherwise it messes the whole thing up.
Post by: Tiruin on June 06, 2017, 07:43:42 pm
But to make some significant comments (Since I really feel like people are, rather than me feeling they're doing it out of the area of scummy intent, really misreading):
Ok, so this is my case on Tiruin. I've tried to get most of her content, so if I missed something it wasn't on purpose (or I found it irrelevant, I guess).
It's far from solid, but it's far different from what's been going on all of today.
Quote
Tiruin: Outlined my case for her a few posts above. tl;dr is not pushing much, "don't investigate me I'm town"I appreciate your overtness to try and make a case, I really do--but you seem to have missed that I WANT TO BE TARGETED :V
That is why I've acted as much as I have, in the way that I did. The reason why I'm pushing other people is because significant people aren't displaying enough as I want them to, like TBF and others you've quoted me in (Thanks for gathering some of my posts but you're gathering them under a lens of 'trying to make a case' but not really making one in an analytical light)
I'm not sure how you guys let Shakerag, Tiruin, TDS and TBF get away with their bullshit of ending conversations and selectively ignoring shit, but the wagon that formed against me for... what are you even voting for me over again? I can't even tell, especially in Doll's posts.Apologies for your RL happenings :<
But! I'd like to ask you one question:
Are you sure what you said there applies to me?
Because I'm not even for your wagon like I said in my latest post. :P
That's bloody why I've also mentioned my ambivalence; doll makes a shrewd wordy point, but I am unsure if doll is town or not--why I kept talking about protecting them was pointedly to check many factors.
Quote
I don't see why Shakerag is included on this. Tiruin misses things all the time. I blame it on her bad internet usually. I'm not sure what you are referring to with TDS here, people in-thread have pointed out multiple times that TBF always plays this way.Also people seriously didn't even communicate WITH me with the initiative to do so :V I've been poking them for initiative of communication in the posts I reference them.
Quote
Tiruin, remember when you were really really convinced that I was lying about being a town poisoner (i.e. town-aligned poisoner)? And it was eventually revealed that I was a town poisoner? It's not particularly relevant here, as I'm not a poisoner, but that was a fun emotion I had and wanted to boop you with it. :DI do, this is partly what's adjusting my reads on you BEFORE Flabort's big post about how he missed things [which I infer is more out of moods because I can sort of feel it while reading his posts, and the latest paragraph of a RL mention]
I do not think Flabort is scum, and warrants how many votes he has on him, especially given the content of doll's case; doll's case has sense, but it is sensible only through a lens of reasoning that is on doll's personal side there too. Initially I had thought of it as 'ok this could be an opportunistic scum push on a townie that really wasn't active, like seriously [...also me thinking that when people pull the active lurking card, they don't really check post history -_- {I made a post about how I am against active lurking as a generalization of a scumtell}]
Quote
More seriously, though, "little scumhunting" is fairly correct.Overtly, you mean. :P I'm gathering notes, you silly boot. And notes to be used in the future days IF AND UNLESS I DIE TONIGHT.
Well this is out of nowhere :VI still don't trust Lenglon entirely. Especially since they said they learned Shakerag's alignment but Shakerag didn't learn theirs.Well Lenglon claimed she was town to me. I can at least confirm that she wasn't mafia because the merging thing meant she became my alignment (town)(My updated role includes her abilities and I can see the ability she used to do the merge which clearly states she would take on whatever alignment I had). So if she went from mafia (or anything with another team) to town, you'd think she'd rat out her previous partners.
I mean like HOW this even occurs--I can only presume the ability lets you PM, lets you quicktopic, or...yeah.
Still :V
Lakerag is towny in my eyes because of this kerfluffle.
Also please, dudes, let me make it simple for everyone despite the want or juicyness of paranoia--my theme doesn't matter. -_-
Because webadict parsed it differently.
So why did you accuse of activelurking before?I mentioned it to TDS, aye?
I've mentioned DCSS--while it is off forum, he posted about winning a 15-rune game.
Bloody hell does that take long. I can't even complete a game in DCSS with 3 runes in under 4 hours. :V
So yeah. I'm POKING him about active lurking because, and I did track, before his majority posts here--he had been focusing on that.
And not following up my poke on him, humorously, about it.
Track me better TolyK. :I
I see you as the Fix to my Fogg, specifically my Phileas Fogg. I see you mean well because I do get a towny vibe from reading through how you do your stuff, but you aren't seeing what I mean [and I seriously thought I was being overt, even worried that I'm being dilutedly TOO overt]
Quote
** Would prefer people not comment much until Tiruin answers first.Danke!
And/or you're scum and being pretty plastic about it through ways hard to connect at this moment. But that's just making polarity. :v
Fakeedit: Also y'all know the hilarious thing?
I thought yesterday was Wednesday but it isn't and today is Wednesday because of late night thinking.
Hah, I've more than 12 hours to do my stuff!
Quote
9 To Hammer. Day Ends on Wednesday, June 7th at 8:00 PM CST. There is no Extension available.
Will finally get that post later.
Post by: Persus13 on June 06, 2017, 08:56:22 pm
Also, this game is hilarious for reasons nobody understands but me!Goddamnit Web, last time you said this was the game we had 5 SKs.
Post by: webadict on June 06, 2017, 10:09:55 pm
Technically 7, if you count the town-sided ones. But who's really counting?Also, this game is hilarious for reasons nobody understands but me!Goddamnit Web, last time you said this was the game we had 5 SKs.
I mean, that's the best part, you have only a slight clue into how insane I'm willing to make a setup.
But, I have to make a vote count.
Post by: webadict on June 06, 2017, 10:31:17 pm
------------------------
4maskwolf -
doll - flabort,
FallacyOfUrist - hector13, Persus13,
flabort - doll, 4maskwolf, Lenglon, Pozzai, Tea,
hector13 -
Jack A T -
Lenglon-Shakerag - Shakerag,
origamascienceguy -
Persus13 -
Pozzai -
Tea -
TheBiggerFish - TheDarkStar, Tiruin,
TheDarkStar - flabort,
Tiruin -
TolyK - FallacyOfUrist,
No Lynch -
Not Voting - origamascienceguy, TolyK, TheBiggerFish, Jack A T,
Shorten - doll, Persus13,
Oppose Shorten - hector13,
9 To Hammer. Day Ends on Wednesday, June 7th at 8:00 PM CST. There is no Extension available.
Quote from: Current Rules
Survival - The Mafiakill does not count toward the 1 action per Phase limit.
Post by: Tea on June 07, 2017, 12:13:01 am
Like.
I don't understand what her last bit to Persus means at all.I'm not sure how you guys let Shakerag, Tiruin, TDS and TBF get away with their bullshit of ending conversations and selectively ignoring shit, but the wagon that formed against me for... what are you even voting for me over again? I can't even tell, especially in Doll's posts.Apologies for your RL happenings :<
But! I'd like to ask you one question:
Are you sure what you said there applies to me?
Because I'm not even for your wagon like I said in my latest post. :P
That's bloody why I've also mentioned my ambivalence; doll makes a shrewd wordy point, but I am unsure if doll is town or not--why I kept talking about protecting them was pointedly to check many factors.QuoteI don't see why Shakerag is included on this. Tiruin misses things all the time. I blame it on her bad internet usually. I'm not sure what you are referring to with TDS here, people in-thread have pointed out multiple times that TBF always plays this way.Also people seriously didn't even communicate WITH me with the initiative to do so :V I've been poking them for initiative of communication in the posts I reference them.
And also she...somehow doesn't realize that no one flabort mentioned in the group of people "selectively ignoring shit" is on flabort's wagon, despite her, uh, bolded insistence that she's attentive to and against his wagon:
I do not think Flabort is scum, and warrants how many votes he has on him, especially given the content of doll's case; doll's case has sense, but it is sensible only through a lens of reasoning that is on doll's personal side there too. Initially I had thought of it as 'ok this could be an opportunistic scum push on a townie that really wasn't active, like seriously [...also me thinking that when people pull the active lurking card, they don't really check post history -_- {I made a post about how I am against active lurking as a generalization of a scumtell}[/b]
^ And furthermore I'm not sure if I'm defining active lurking differently from her or from literally everyone, but my understanding of the term active lurking is posting things that contribute only on the surface/or even outright fluff but don't reflect very much of a desire to solve the game? As such I don't understand the relevance of activity level outside of the thread.
And then she is asking people to push on her, and then seemingly getting defensive in response to just TolyK pressing her and revealing her hand of clever softing that she's been doing throughout the day for reasons I don't super understand? (Another example of the latter bit is in the first quote of this post.)
Tiruin, to what extent were you aware of the state of the wagons/extension votes this evening prior to Webadict's count?Only upon re-reading past the count ._. because of multiple RL conditions, however I am dedicated to the game and anyone can feel free to please hunt me if ever they feel they have cases to pursue on me.
[...]
That said, anyone else targeting Doll tonight? It helps me to know! @_@
Ok, so this is my case on Tiruin. I've tried to get most of her content, so if I missed something it wasn't on purpose (or I found it irrelevant, I guess).
It's far from solid, but it's far different from what's been going on all of today.QuoteTiruin: Outlined my case for her a few posts above. tl;dr is not pushing much, "don't investigate me I'm town"I appreciate your overtness to try and make a case, I really do--but you seem to have missed that I WANT TO BE TARGETED :V
That is why I've acted as much as I have, in the way that I did. The reason why I'm pushing other people is because significant people aren't displaying enough as I want them to, like TBF and others you've quoted me in (Thanks for gathering some of my posts but you're gathering them under a lens of 'trying to make a case' but not really making one in an analytical light)
Post by: doll on June 07, 2017, 02:03:00 am
Congratulations Flabort, you beat Leafsnail's record. You've made me lose interest in the game on Day 1.
I'd say 'seeya' but I'm not coming back this time.
Why are y'all still voting someone who just confirmed himself as town?
Post by: Tiruin on June 07, 2017, 02:39:04 am
Well, I've got no interest in a game which people are treating as some kind of therapy session instead of something to actually play.So instead of talking to Flabort, you judged, concluded, and left while leaving blame on him because of your bitterness.
Congratulations Flabort, you beat Leafsnail's record. You've made me lose interest in the game on Day 1.
I'd say 'seeya' but I'm not coming back this time.
Man... <_<
That's stupid. Not even of any quality you've given back there. Or in etiquette of asking for a replacement.
He just mentions a RL event which affected his mood at the time, and you--probably without the best of mindset at the moment--jump ship while throwing "shit" back at him. The point of Mafia is to have fun, not build up a case on another person purely out of your own lens of perspective and "win", and part of 'fun' is communication.
There was SO LITTLE OF THAT TO FLABORT that it irks me to see this kind of post.
"I'm leaving, your fault, you made me lose interest."
We are better off without that playstyle; when you return or in any future games you play in, drop the bitterness please.
It affects you too, in the end.
So don't blame him for something you're fully in control with. You could've picked anyone else to make your case on but you picked this one guy who mentioned something important in his post; you're in control of how you react--there is no blame on him, doll.
Instead of talking with him about it, you decided to quit. He's not faulted for his one post wherein he brought up something ON HIS SIDE and NOT YOURS. He isn't even using it as any excuse whatsoever, just as a snippet for his mood.
Same scenario with Leafsnail; overfocus and a lack of communication.
Do not blame others when it's something you could've handled better.
Tiruin is...not really making any sense to me at the moment. Can someone translate?Sorry, and to clarify:
Quote
I don't understand what her last bit to Persus means at all.It was to Flabort's note. :P "Tiruin misses things all the time. While this is in a way, true, why I asked "Are you sure what you said there applies to me?" is because I noticed those people were all NOT on the vote wagon on him.
Quote
^ And furthermore I'm not sure if I'm defining active lurking differently from her or from literally everyone, but my understanding of the term active lurking is posting things that contribute only on the surface/or even outright fluff but don't reflect very much of a desire to solve the game? As such I don't understand the relevance of activity level outside of the thread.I may lack the time to keep up with making that list-post, but I am keeping notes for any future questioning, D2 onwards.
Also back to this; it's the part of the vote wagon on Flabort about his activity and what it implies. That's what I've made an angle about there.
Quote
And then she is asking people to push on her, and then seemingly getting defensive in response to just TolyK pressing her and revealing her hand of clever softing that she's been doing throughout the day for reasons I don't super understand? (Another example of the latter bit is in the first quote of this post.)It's more what TolyK said :O
I can get and understand what he's implying by his understanding, but the push is more 'ability hit me' or 'try to make sense of me too', which TolyK did.
Also that votecount, Tea, was this (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164260.msg7476121#msg7476121), not an earlier one.
And all my words are messy because of doll's latest post.
It is very dissatisfying to see another person, blame another person, for something fully on their own side. While I may just be learning something new about others here--it feels totally out of character...unless it was fully in-character, and in one's playstyle all along to act and think like that.
Post by: TolyK on June 07, 2017, 03:18:08 am
Can people please stop being overly emotional in these games? :(
Everyone here is literally out to get you. You can't fully trust everyone. Of course people will make their cases with different posts and such. Things can be explained differently (eg. Tiruin could be scum trying to get flabort not lynched today! or flabort is town and we are misjudging his activity today because of playstyle! Or a myriad of other possibilities).
So obviously people might contradict you, not trust you, etc. And you know this, obviously, but I'm just reiterating, because some people might feel like people are personally attacking them because they're mean (and not because of many possible reasons). I would just like to remind folks that this is a game, don't get too worked up if people point out flaws or blatantly disrespect you or whatever makes you irritated, because it has no bearing on things outside the game. That said, please also refrain from personal "you style is shit" attacks, because ... well, those don't help you find scum, they aren't scumtells.
I'll have to read Tiruin's response and such a bit later, but jeez. This had been brewing the whole D1 as people get frustrated and then post long posts about how they wanted to relax and instead are getting worked up.. I understand that many are on medication or whatnot and thus it's harder, I won't pretend to know or understand specifics, but hopefully this alleviates the problem on both ends.
Post by: Tea on June 07, 2017, 03:19:38 am
In my opinion there was a very clear "get off my lawn" mentality/mentality of taking things incredibly personally expressed that went well beyond just mentioning a real life event.
It's unclear to me whether doll's last post was a replace-out post or an "I'm done posting this phase" post coming from someone that didn't want the phase extended in the first place and has claimed that they are not living through the night.
Currently feeling like a good way to proceed is to confirm flabort's claim and have that to work from.
Happy to go back to FoU, either.
Still having trouble understanding you (Tiruin) but perhaps things will improve that regard after I sleep.
Post by: Jack A T on June 07, 2017, 04:17:08 am
Unvote flabort (Wuba missed my vote in the count). I'm still uneasy about the focus on thirds, but most of the evidence of him being scum better fits a faction-irrelevant narrative. His responses to the various attacks (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164260.msg7477012#msg7477012) convince me of the immediate impression I got: goals to pursue a faction's strategic interests (feels like town's, particularly with his acceptance of most points against him) and to pursue his own health and happiness (not spending ages on a stressful and less-than-fun game while dealing with depression) came into conflict, and the more important one had a substantial influence.
Fallacy as a fallback. See the stuff about the reads seeming manufactured.
flabort: Something less dense, then. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLR9HDHInGM) (Youtube link. Cat video.)
As for doll, welcome to Mafia, a social game where the players are human beings, with all that entails. Don't be a colossal prick.
Post by: webadict on June 07, 2017, 07:30:47 am
Chill atmosphere.
It's in the rules.
Doll, you too. No harshing the mellows. Only marshing the mellows.
Now, get back to murdering each other.
Post by: Shakerag on June 07, 2017, 09:46:50 am
Hey, smoke 'em if you got 'em.you say that when I just wrote message 106 in our chat...Emphasis mine. So, you have a chat as well, not just a role-info-swap carried out by Wuba, right?Yup! Although I'm not really sure why we needed one...
TolyK:
I answered this one. I'll answer it again, since I can't be bothered rereading again. :( (I'm pretty sure I answered in plaintext and didn't quote you, so you missed it too...)Yeah, I must have missed it.
This is more of a gut feeling, however based on themes and my knowledge of roles, the feeling is reinforced. My reasoning is that vote manip is not-rare in BYOR's, so if I can afford to not vote I'd do that. Since I've already started, I don't see why I should stop this policy.
So ... if you're that concerned about vote manipulation wouldn't you be cautioning everyone else from voting willy-nilly?
Tea:
Tiruin is...not really making any sense to me at the moment. Can someone translate?Sadly, no. This is par for the course with Tiruin. Which is why she's permanently in my "can't get a read on" category in every game.
You know how if you're reading something that makes you really angry you're "seeing red"? Reading Tiruin's posts makes me "see rainbow" every time.
webadict:
No harshing the mellows. Only marshing the mellows.Instructions unclear; dick stuck in marshmallow.
Post by: FallacyofUrist on June 07, 2017, 10:06:22 am
~~~
TolyK: are you actually scum hunting now?
~~~
webadict: You forgot my oppose shorten.
Post by: webadict on June 07, 2017, 10:32:05 am
webadict: You forgot my oppose shorten.Oh god, please use light green instead of dark purple. I use the Darkling theme. Or orange. Or yellow. Anything light
Post by: FallacyofUrist on June 07, 2017, 10:53:11 am
Agh my eyes.
Post by: hector13 on June 07, 2017, 12:56:18 pm
Post by: Lenglon on June 07, 2017, 01:06:27 pm
Why doll? why...
Whatever, since apparently nobody else followed doll's primary case on flabort, I guess Ill have to push it.
Flabort - explain how doll's roleclaim induces WIFOM.
Post by: hector13 on June 07, 2017, 01:09:25 pm
The only thing not WIFOM-y about it is that doll'll die as a direct result of the claim, whether it's true or not.
Post by: Lenglon on June 07, 2017, 01:20:19 pm
2) Senario 1- doll is scum. doll is lynched d2, and still had little influence on the D1 lynch.
Senario 2 - doll is town. onvious result is obvious
Where is the WIFOM?
Again I need Flabort's answer, not yours hector.
Post by: Lenglon on June 07, 2017, 01:33:38 pm
Post by: Pozzai on June 07, 2017, 02:04:48 pm
If Fallacy is the fallback lynch and flips teamed scum, Tolyk and Tea should never be shot. I think I have notes on some TBF stuff as well.
I don't quite get why Doll thinks Flabort is "confirmed town", though Flaborts interactions with Doll makes decent sense if they're two fairly identical powers in terms of some actions, power and mechanics.
Whoever it was that asked, I think it might've been Jack? Essentially my reasons for being willing to vote Flabort is very much a kin to some of the observations Doll talked about which I also made about 500 posts ago.
They're not poking people in any manner I would consider they get anything alignment indicative from, they're very "off-hands" and overly careful and has done very little to push the game forward.
If we leave Flabort alive, my prefered lynches are between Fallacy and TBF.
If Fallacy is lynched and flips mafia, shoot TBF and probably TDS or Tiruin.
If Fallacy flips town/solo 3P, shoot TBF and probably Tolyk, TDS or Tea(will attempt to narrow down later)
I can't remember my TBF observations so I'll make some comments about shots depending on his flip.
The dude looking for replacement could potentially be a decent shot in terms of narrowing down poe, but obviously can't reliably be resurrected so might be a poor choice because of that in case they're town.
Post by: Shakerag on June 07, 2017, 02:26:45 pm
Post by: Shakerag on June 07, 2017, 02:30:40 pm
Post by: Lenglon on June 07, 2017, 02:38:54 pm
hes claiming that upon lynch he will die, flip, be revealed as town, auto-revive, and get a new set of powers along the lines of an enhanced JOAT. the flip supposedly will confirm he is town.
considering that past BYOR auto-revive mechanics have not had the beneficiary flip, I doubt the truth of his claim. either he wont flip, or he wont revive. i doubt he'll get both.
Frankly, I dont get why hes so ipset to be lynched if when we strike him down he will become more powerful than we can possibly imagine.
so yeah, I dont buy it.
Post by: Tea on June 07, 2017, 02:54:33 pm
Post by: flabort on June 07, 2017, 02:56:00 pm
*sigh*
Why doll? why...
Whatever, since apparently nobody else followed doll's primary case on flabort, I guess Ill have to push it.
Flabort - explain how doll's roleclaim induces WIFOM.
Eh, I'll wait just a bit before full claiming.
For now though:
1) I'm dying tonight
2) I'm unblockable
3) My role is very strong
4) I suspect that there may exist daygame powers which can snipe me before I get to night 1
5) That includes voting control powers
6) Therefore, anyone who votes me today is madcrazy suspicious if I don't get all my fireworks off
7) Therefore, don't vote me if you are town
8) I'm probably going to get daykilled or something anyway
9) Jokes on you scum, you I actually need to make it to Day 2 and couldn't think of a good way to dodge the scumkill
10) Have fun with the wifom, nano desu
Post by: FallacyofUrist on June 07, 2017, 02:57:33 pm
FBYOR. The odd thing being I submitted FBYOR 1 and not FBYOR 2.
Post by: FallacyofUrist on June 07, 2017, 03:07:08 pm
Are you going to go into any detail with your reads or answer any of the questions that were directed at you from before, FoU?Some of the questions, anyway. I'm fairly sure some of the questions were RVS questions, but the ones that are still relevant I'll be fine answering... if I can find them all. It may be a while before I get to those.
As for my reads... well, they were fairly initial reads. I could possibly go into more detail, and actually, I'd be happy to do so. Again, however, it may be some time before I do so, given "more detail" equates to doing the same level of study as I did on TolyK, that is, looking through all their posts.
Post by: Lenglon on June 07, 2017, 03:13:40 pm
The only people WIFOMd by doll's claim are the scumteam.
You are claiming to be WIFOMd by dolls claim.
therefore, you are scum.
Last chance - Flabort - where is the WIFOM?
Post by: flabort on June 07, 2017, 04:15:43 pm
Flabort - doll's point 10 is in reference to point 9, which is spoken directly to the scum.In the quoted post, I believe point 1 is WIFOM, point 2 is WIFOM, and point 9 is WIFOM.
The only people WIFOMd by doll's claim are the scumteam.
You are claiming to be WIFOMd by dolls claim.
therefore, you are scum.
Last chance - Flabort - where is the WIFOM?
Furthermore, we have a later claim.
What part of this ISN'T WIFOM?Spoiler: kore wa fullclaim des (click to show/hide)
I intend to use (E) to use (D) twice and (A) and (B) some arbitrary number of times on every player in night 1.
Post by: TolyK on June 07, 2017, 04:29:49 pm
... guys, the first post was definitely WIFOM.
The point is that WIFOM ==/=> scum, though. And the point is that doll's claim is set to be checked tonight.
Same with Flabort's claim that he flips, then revives. He'll also be claim-checked.
Lenglon-Shakerag are more or less confirmed same alignment. I've confirmed part of my role to FoU (yes, that was one of my abilities, and it's back now, I honestly don't get how you still think I could plausibly be a cult leader, but w/e; also, yes, I have been scumhunting today, right above your post is the fruits of the labor :P).
It seems like D1 has been fairly good, for a BYOR, actually. I still stand by lynching Flabort to check his claim. If he's lying and is town, he should probably say it now.
Post by: flabort on June 07, 2017, 05:08:17 pm
Took me a second to parse that. Why would I be lying about being town? :P
It seems like D1 has been fairly good, for a BYOR, actually. I still stand by lynching Flabort to check his claim. If he's lying and is town, he should probably say it now.
But no, nothing I said about my role, my theme, alignment, or abilities is a lie.
Post by: Lenglon on June 07, 2017, 05:41:03 pm
Point 2, if doll is scum, is STUPID wifom that will self-resolve. it doesnt wifom town on d1. only wifoms killing roles, like the scumteam, and inspectors on n1. and itll self-resolve by lynching doll d2.
I STILL see nothing to WIFOM me or anyone else town on D1. on D2, if doll is alive, then WIFOM will be had. but not until.
Post by: Tiruin on June 07, 2017, 07:55:38 pm
*sigh*I did, and I'm ambivalent to it since it tries to induce a conclusive scumhunt on Day 1 without anything else than behavior reaction. Doesn't look like either could be scum given how each do communicate however I'm also doubtful on that since Flabort hasn't been that precise in his responses in turn, although I can see a very real degree of reason in his responses.
Why doll? why...
Whatever, since apparently nobody else followed doll's primary case on flabort, I guess Ill have to push it.
Flabort - explain how doll's roleclaim induces WIFOM.
Also in doll's last post, I have no idea who he's talking about in confirmed town--especially since he did NOTHING ABOUT HIS OWN ACTIONS [eww bitter aftertaste; eww out of character behavior] if he's referring to Flabort.
Frankly, I dont get why hes so ipset to be lynched if when we strike him down he will become more powerful than we can possibly imagine.Splotchy net has me speaking in immediate reactions instead of detailed responses--wasn't able to get online yesterday or screenshot stuff to post and reply to, and I forgot Webby's timezone (I recall it is GMT -4? so it's basically 8pm his time as of my writing? .-.;) but this...pretty much is a towntell :V
He is UPSET because the lynch could be used on OTHER PEOPLE maybe?
And that he's voting doll because of the voracity of the case presented on him because it pretty much is through one's own personal lens. Adding in doll's wording style and, as I've come to know, his overall actual bitterness, it makes a compelling emotional case. This perspective of his bitterness in behavior will prevail until he actually says something about it, but I haven't looked down upon him as a person beyond the 'stupidity' of the user account being a foil, just his behavior.
Sure. webadict: You forgot my oppose shorten.Use orange dude. It's what got Webby's eyes since ever--I use darkling and it's personally the BEST color to catch, even in the default 'core' forum view (white background)
Agh my eyes.
Oh, and "doll might be a joker" isn't a valid answer. Thats a problem for N1 inspectors and D2 everyone else. D1 nobody has a reason to care about that. since we arent lynching doll D1 anyway.This, I agree with >_>
Despite doll's intensiveness in how he words things, he words them in a way that gets ideas and information with experience. This depth did, unspokenly, make me very wary on if he was scum so I did treat all his words as if they're in some sort of filter of sorts, however lately I'm all leaning in the gray zone due to his...unclarified and unknown interpretation of recent events >_> The bitterness is, actually, real, and that threw me off.
Otherwise, he presented a compelling case, which Flabort's responses (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?action=profile;area=showposts;sa=messages;u=15153) (CHECK HIS POST HISTORY PEOPLE) ended up in a fullclaim about--giving off the real impression that doll isn't just talking out of something such as a group-agenda {usually mafia/scum} (though it is, honestly, weird that he leaves his vote on him, leaves in an ungentlemanly and out of character huff [I'm suspecting he interpreted something on his side, it invoked an intense and generalized reaction or thought or idea or impression about the game at that point, and he concluded on that instead of actually rethinking his thoughts])
Quote from: Flabort's claim
Reference here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164260.msg7476859#msg7476859)...ALso doesn't it make sense to be PRETTY upset that one is to lose an ACTUALLY IMPORTANT and rather pragmatic ability/auto because of the reasons presented--including a vote of one person in absentia?
[...]
I am FHPBYOR, Town. I have an auto that resurrects me, once, and that makes me suspicious of Tea's claim that they can resurrect one person they killed - besides the fact that they'd be using an action after they died. I have two night actions; one randomly redirects the target, and one gives the target a random 1-shot out of a set list of one-shots (Protect, Inspect, Kill, Track, Watch, Karma (?), Bus, Redirect, Guard, Block). And finally I have my own one shot, the most counter of the counter claims against Tea, which gives me infinite actions for the phase that I use it, and it reads that it does not count towards my one action per phase, and that any actions taken that phase can be targeted at any number of targets, so long as I target each person only once (each). NOTE that it doesn't say that it causes me or anyone else to die.
[...]
Doll, in as far as I believe in his competence, would probably have actually left since that's one part none of us can control; but I don't believe he would leave the follow-up unread. What I mean is he may lurk through this, and thus I'm still targeting his husk of an account later on.
And to clarify, yes I'm still bitter about what he's said and done, but I do not lower the idea of him as a person beyond the account to his behavior. It's just that he's pretty much absent and all I've to work with, is that possibility of 'leave a note on what to do in N1', and to re-read all his stuff about 'I'm ded D2 :< so this is all my shots'. [ie His earlier posts about softclaiming about his role, adding a bit of understandable WIFOM to nudge in a polarity between SCUMSHOT and Town attractive-abilities in N1 for a presumed plan, and also in his semantical constructs towards people in particular. His views are still important sans his last recent posts, and even then there are things in his posts that are important sans the portions that are...outside of Mafia [but also personally important]]
It's bitter that he's done it in this way though. How he did it. -_- If there's ANY consolation in his role flavor or whatever post-game, that'll make just a tiny bit of recompense, but I'm seeking that in his earliest posts about a possible plan, because while it doesn't affect me {y'know probably}, it affects others inasmuch as literally everyone else here does affect the balance of the game.
Because I'm still thinking AT LEAST 3 scum, re-considering my earlier mention of 3 mafia in a supposedly vanilla 16 player alignment setup.
tl;dr: I do see doll's case being solid. I do not however see it as opaque. Translucent--meaning that while there are pretty nice points in it FROM pretty much information given within the game, denoting flabort's RESPONSE to his own actions, there's still an area of having an agenda in it. Why I'm not voting EITHER OF THEM is because I'm leaning town on either in a very gray area given both their interactions with each other, and what I've read of both.
ANYWAY
Tea (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164260.msg7477662#msg7477662), I appreciate your endeavors to check on me--pretty much one of the lesser people in the spotlight of today, within today.
Everyone here is literally out to get you. You can't fully trust everyone. Of course people will make their cases with different posts and such. Things can be explained differently (eg. Tiruin could be scum trying to get flabort not lynched today! or flabort is town and we are misjudging his activity today because of playstyle! Or a myriad of other possibilities).Alright while I loved this post and rationality in poking sensitive emotions in an actual nice way instead of a condescending or overriding way...
You're seriously correlating me and Flabort without giving any mention that we could be both of town or either town/scum or whatever? :P
People CAN defend each other if they see validity in the response, and defending isn't a scum-tell if...I'm assuming very vaguely from that parentheses example. Just part of your story but I'm curious about why only those ideas are mentioned. :3
Especially why you kinda missed my point early in the game about what or why I'm saying particular phrases and sentences. How did you interpret me saying 'hey dudez, plz no inspectorino meee! I'm town!~' [/wowI'mbadatthis]
Post by: Pozzai on June 07, 2017, 08:48:40 pm
Post by: Tiruin on June 07, 2017, 09:33:20 pm
Anyone know the votes? I might prefer a FoU lynch but would rather not tie :)Votecount Webadict please
PFP spluttery net ;~;
Post by: webadict on June 07, 2017, 09:44:19 pm
As the sun sets, the scene moves across our remaining suspects. Each face significantly different and surprisingly the same, their emotions ranging and varying.
But, we need a bit of an emotional uprising. Tensions were high today. And so we need to loosen up.
Flabort is the unlucky one today. With nothing to go on, and no one willing to volunteer, we arrive through a series of events where flabort, reminds them their efforts are futile. Perhaps there were those among the few, but too many found reason not to reason.
And we're here. In Sundown, there is a gallows in the middle of town. The girls have hog tied flabort, dragging her kicking and screaming to this relic of a long lost age.
But, as they load her into the noose, they find something altogether unremarkable. Origamiscienceguy has already been placed inside, with a little note from the Sheriff himself.
'Sorry it had to be this way, but rules are rules.'
And before anyone knew what to do, flabort had found a way to escape justice for another day.
flabort has been lynched!
flabort has come back to life!
origamiscienceguy has been modkilled!
origamiscienceguy was Skanderbeg (town).
Vote Count
------------------------
4maskwolf -
doll - flabort,
FallacyOfUrist - hector13, Persus13, Jack A T,
flabort - doll, 4maskwolf, Lenglon, Pozzai, Tea,
hector13 -
Jack A T -
Lenglon-Shakerag - Shakerag,
origamascienceguy -
Persus13 -
Pozzai -
Tea -
TheBiggerFish - TheDarkStar, Tiruin,
TheDarkStar - flabort,
Tiruin -
TolyK - FallacyOfUrist,
No Lynch -
Not Voting - origamascienceguy, TolyK, TheBiggerFish,
Shorten - doll, Persus13,
Oppose Shorten - hector13,
9 To Hammer. Day Ends on Wednesday, June 7th at 8:00 PM CST. There is no Extension available.
Quote from: Current Rules
Survival - The Mafiakill does not count toward the 1 action per Phase limit.
It is now Night. Night ends Friday, June 9th around 8:00 PM CST or when all actions have been received. If you do not wish to action this Phase, please send me a message saying so.
Quote
Skanderbeg
(Auto) Lord Of Albania: You have two votes.
(1-Shot, Day) Nobleman [target/self]: The target is unlynchable until the following Day.
(1-Shot, Night) Command [target]: Target is unable to use a Mafiakill action. Ever.
Post by: webadict on June 09, 2017, 11:44:26 pm
Post by: webadict on June 10, 2017, 12:47:30 pm
The body of the local coffee shop owner lies before you. On her body, you find a syringe, filled with... Well, probably nothing good.
You see the scraps of a fight where Persus13 has been, but it looks like she's still back.
But, now that you're looking about... Where's Pozzai? She's nowhere around here.
I guess that makes two down.
doll has been killed!
doll was 400,000 Grams Of Caffeine (town).
Persus13 has been killed!
Persus13 has come back to life.
Pozzai has been killed!
Pozzai cannot be found!
Vote Count
------------------------
4maskwolf -
FallacyOfUrist -
flabort -
hector13 -
Jack A T -
Lenglon-Shakerag -
Persus13 -
Tea -
TheBiggerFish -
TheDarkStar -
Tiruin -
TolyK -
No Lynch -
Not Voting - FallacyOfUrist, flabort, hector13, Jack A T, Lenglon, Persus13, Shakerag, TheDarkStar, Tiruin, TheBiggerFish, TolyK,
7 To Hammer. Day Ends on Thursday, June 15th around 8:00 PM CST.. There is an Extension available.
Quote from: Current Rules
Survival - The Mafiakill does not count toward the 1 action per Phase limit.
It is now Day 2.
Quote
400,000 Grams of Caffeine
(Auto) 400,000 Grams of Caffeine: You start the game with 400,000 grams of caffeine. When you run out of Caffeine, you die from the crash. You are allowed to go below 0 Grams of Caffeine, borrowing your extra from the Coffee Mafia, who break your legs.
[REDACTED]
(Night) Caffeine Rush [target]: The target becomes unblockable. Forever. This costs you 20,000 grams of caffeine, slowly injected into them over their entire lifetime.
(Night) Stimulate [target]: Grant the target one additional action during the Night. Forever. This costs you 50,000 grams of caffeine.
(2-Shot, Night) Lethal Dose [target]: 200,000 grams of caffeine are injected into your target. You know, to account for variance.
(1-Shot) Transcendence: Use your remaining Caffeine supply. When you use this action, you gain an unlimited number of actions, all of which are unblockable.
Post by: Tea on June 10, 2017, 01:21:42 pm
To be more clear, Tiruin-
1) What does "initiative of communication (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164260.msg7477300#msg7477300)" mean?
2) Who are you referring to when you say flabort's emotional reaction to his lynch makes sense because he is being voted by someone in absentia? (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164260.msg7478038#msg7478038)?
3)
Quote
This activity spike is with communication and people communicating with a certain set of other players around them. This communication is usually with those that they feel wary with or feel like they're going to benefit more about knowing--which, I do believe, is why people DID jump on Pozzai and collaterally, you, because this 'newbie' is only sticking to 'what he knows', and thus may give off an 'outside' impression.I honestly have no idea what this answer has to do with the question it was supposed to be responding to.
Personally, this is translated to 'scum', because (and I presume a lot here in context) people at times have the tendency to group 'unfamiliarity/strange behavior' with being scum. And personally this is either my own noting of a 'town'-ish tell, or a tell on behavior that denotes reactiveness to anything sensed or focused on, or superficial scumminess. {because I've seen scum do this, but not in a comprehensive/deep way that they even follow up}
(in this post (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164260.msg7478038#msg7478038)). I'm trying to understand your play yesterday, in that you seemed to be very cagey and to be dropping softclaims everywhere. You then encouraged TolyK to press you. You then started giving a reason behind many of those cagey softclaims. I don't understand why you felt the need to be so much less cagey about what you'd been saying about your role at that point. Can you elaborate on that?
And while we're at it, I don't understand what prompted the activity spike tangent?? Is the main idea of it that you had a light townread on Pozzai and that you're explaining your thought process for it?
Post by: Tea on June 10, 2017, 01:26:43 pm
Post by: TheDarkStar on June 10, 2017, 01:30:15 pm
flabort: You targeted doll last night. I find this suspicious, given that doll flipped town and suspected you were a mafia redirector.
Post by: Lenglon on June 10, 2017, 02:40:53 pm
4mask:I notice your name isn't listed in the "not voting" section along with tea's, did you lose your vote as well?
TolyK: I notice your name IS in the "not voting" section, so I assume you have a vote. Will you be using it today?
Flabort: sooo..... about that roleflip that didn't happen...
Post by: TheBiggerFish on June 10, 2017, 02:41:49 pm
Post by: TheBiggerFish on June 10, 2017, 03:16:03 pm
Post by: webadict on June 10, 2017, 03:17:20 pm
doll:Can you still talk? If you can still talk, who did you target?Do you not know what dead means?
Post by: TheDarkStar on June 10, 2017, 03:26:48 pm
doll:Can you still talk? If you can still talk, who did you target?
doll did not visit me (and he probably didn't visit anyone else, since the planned kills didn't even happen) but flabort did visit doll. doll's stated plan was to visit everyone and since he flipped town with the role he claimed I see no reason to doubt him. To me, it seems likely that flabort blocked doll.
flabort: Explain last night.
Post by: TolyK on June 10, 2017, 03:42:53 pm
TolyK: I notice your name IS in the "not voting" section, so I assume you have a vote. Will you be using it today?Yep. In this post.
Also, did you get anything today? If you did, don't use it yet. Same question/request to Shakerag.
Flabort:
Quote from: Lenglon
Flabort: sooo..... about that roleflip that didn't happen...Why did you not flip?
What changed in your role, if anything?
What did you do tonight, specifically?
Post by: Shakerag on June 10, 2017, 03:48:12 pm
TDS: I don't feel like answering that right now. maybe later. maybe not.Oh come on, now; that's a little rude.
Post by: TheBiggerFish on June 10, 2017, 03:51:58 pm
I wasn't sure if it was dead, or dead-dead. Thank you for clarifying.doll:Can you still talk? If you can still talk, who did you target?Do you not know what dead means?
Post by: webadict on June 10, 2017, 04:01:44 pm
That would be a vital ability. I would never hide something like that.I wasn't sure if it was dead, or dead-dead. Thank you for clarifying.doll:Can you still talk? If you can still talk, who did you target?Do you not know what dead means?
Post by: TolyK on June 10, 2017, 04:40:22 pm
Some jerk took away my vote.... I told you guys?
TDS:
flabort: You targeted doll last night. I find this suspicious, given that doll flipped town and suspected you were a mafia redirector.I wouldn't read too much into the redirector part... I understand doll's accusation was that specific, but we have no (public) data regarding actual redirection.
Persus:
Did your abilities change due to your resurrection?
Lenglon/Shakerag:
Just reiterating: Did you get anything? If yes, don't use it yet. Feel free to ask Wuba about it though.TDS: I don't feel like answering that right now. maybe later. maybe not.Oh come on, now; that's a little rude.
Post by: Lenglon on June 10, 2017, 04:52:11 pm
Post by: flabort on June 10, 2017, 06:12:52 pm
I genuinely thought it would happen.
Flabort: sooo..... about that roleflip that didn't happen...
1) Doll had lost interest in the game, see their last post, and probably didn't take any actions.doll:Can you still talk? If you can still talk, who did you target?
doll did not visit me (and he probably didn't visit anyone else, since the planned kills didn't even happen) but flabort did visit doll. doll's stated plan was to visit everyone and since he flipped town with the role he claimed I see no reason to doubt him. To me, it seems likely that flabort blocked doll.
flabort: Explain last night.
2) After I died, I got a new, different role as per my old role's ability "Backup Role". This means I lost all my old abilities like the redirect.
3) My new role had a one-shot kill.
4) I was still feeling salty towards Doll for their personal attacks towards me, still suspected them for the things they said, and also felt that if they were going to be inactive and drop out of the game, they would be useless as an inactive lump.
5) With that evidence, can you put 2 and 2 together?
(Hint: The answer is I killed Doll)
Shakerag-Lenglon: Why did you target me last night?See above, my other answer to you.
flabort: You targeted doll last night. I find this suspicious, given that doll flipped town and suspected you were a mafia redirector.
Flabort:1) Not sure. The ability doesn't specifically SAY I flip, but it certainly implied it. If I were GMing a game and gave an ability worded like that, the person would have flipped because their role changed.Quote from: LenglonFlabort: sooo..... about that roleflip that didn't happen...Why did you not flip?
What changed in your role, if anything?
What did you do tonight, specifically?
2) Everything. I lost the infinite ability, I lost the power-giver ability, I lost the redirect, and the resurrect got used up. In return, I got a 1-shot kill and an auto. This auto gives me a 1-shot ability whenever I target or am targeted by a player, which if I'm reading it right is a random version of an ability they have. Speaking of which, Webadict, sent you a PM asking about that and my ability from targeting Doll?
3) I killed Doll.
Told us what? That somebody had vote manipulation? That YOU had vote manipulation?Some jerk took away my vote.... I told you guys?
Post by: TolyK on June 10, 2017, 06:50:10 pm
1) Doll had lost interest in the game, see their last post, and probably didn't take any actions.Why did you kill doll, exact reason. Yes, I know you were voting him yesterday. Did anything change? With doll flipped as town, who do you suspect now?
2) After I died, I got a new, different role as per my old role's ability "Backup Role". This means I lost all my old abilities like the redirect.
3) My new role had a one-shot kill.
4) I was still feeling salty towards Doll for their personal attacks towards me, still suspected them for the things they said, and also felt that if they were going to be inactive and drop out of the game, they would be useless as an inactive lump.
5) With that evidence, can you put 2 and 2 together?
(Hint: The answer is I killed Doll)Flabort:1) Not sure. The ability doesn't specifically SAY I flip, but it certainly implied it. If I were GMing a game and gave an ability worded like that, the person would have flipped because their role changed.Quote from: LenglonFlabort: sooo..... about that roleflip that didn't happen...Why did you not flip?
What changed in your role, if anything?
What did you do tonight, specifically?
2) Everything. I lost the infinite ability, I lost the power-giver ability, I lost the redirect, and the resurrect got used up. In return, I got a 1-shot kill and an auto. This auto gives me a 1-shot ability whenever I target or am targeted by a player, which if I'm reading it right is a random version of an ability they have. Speaking of which, Webadict, sent you a PM asking about that and my ability from targeting Doll?
3) I killed Doll.
Regarding point 2, you "lost your abilities but got a 1-shot kill + auto". Was this mentioned in your role?
Quote from: Flabort
To be wary of vote manipulation, as it's usual in these kinds of games.Told us what? That somebody had vote manipulation? That YOU had vote manipulation?Some jerk took away my vote.... I told you guys?
I believe I lowered my chances of getting my vote stolen, so I have it today, where it matters more than yesterday.
(This is to recap the answer I gave to folks about why I didn't vote yesterday, and also to preempt more questions...)
Shakerag/Lenglon: Now that you know what it is, I've taken it back (I can give it back to you if you want, later).
I want to consult with Jack first, plus something odd happened last night, so it'll have to wait a bit, BUT you guys should contemplate if you want to accept. Again, this is voluntary, and it's not a cult. :P
Post by: Lenglon on June 10, 2017, 07:39:16 pm
Assuming you got it, would you be willing to use it on us and tie your fate to ours? be aware doing this will set your wincon to match ours even if you are currently mafia or 3rd party.
Post by: Shakerag on June 10, 2017, 07:40:59 pm
Hello from Wisconsin Dells!
I now know the pain of posting from your phone.
We will have to give that thing some consideration.
Also, more general question for anyone:. How many BYORs had scum who could revive?
Post by: Shakerag on June 10, 2017, 07:46:09 pm
Flabort: You have seen my fuse ability in action. it is a phaseless 1-shot that has been used up at this time. clarify with Web if your new auto could give it to you, and what would need to be done to make it happen. tell me the results. again, I do have an infinate action mechanic if having me action you 10,000 times is necessary.Don't jump the gun on this flabort. Unless you are mafia or third party or cult in which case go ahead and jump the gun.
Assuming you got it, would you be willing to use it on us and tie your fate to ours? be aware doing this will set your wincon to match ours even if you are currently mafia or 3rd party.
Post by: Tea on June 10, 2017, 07:48:37 pm
Post by: Tea on June 10, 2017, 07:50:30 pm
Post by: TolyK on June 10, 2017, 08:15:08 pm
again, I do have an infinate action mechanic if having me action you 10,000 times is necessary.Hmm.
I am hypothesizing that everyone who is left can win, assuming some people are being at least partially truthful. Again, this is tentative on discussion happening.
I may be biased but I feel like taking away my vote is more likely to come from mafia than not mafia and I would welcome people proving that they didn't steal mine via doing whatever the double voting format is.Flabort Flabort Flabort Flabort
The one problem is that sometimes votes just count as double-power votes, or are just not visible during voting, so this might be useless.
TolyK:Ha ha. Ha... :/
Hello from Wisconsin Dells!
I now know the pain of posting from your phone.
We will have to give that thing some consideration.
Also, more general question for anyone:. How many BYORs had scum who could revive?
Sure.
Wuba BYOR's? I don't know, but given how many revives have been claimed I would bet that scum have a revive too.
Wow it's 4 am and birds are singing. Probably time to sleep...
Post by: flabort on June 10, 2017, 08:53:32 pm
1) Exact reason? I was upset, and I had a gut feeling, which was supported by my interactions with them earlier. It turned out to be wrong. With Doll flipping as town, I am now most suspicious of TheDarkStar and TheBiggerFish, from yesterday's interactions. I want to have another look at Tiruin, Jack AT, and Hector, but at the moment I don't have the focus to grill them; probably later, though.Why did you kill doll, exact reason. Yes, I know you were voting him yesterday. Did anything change? With doll flipped as town, who do you suspect now?
Regarding point 2, you "lost your abilities but got a 1-shot kill + auto". Was this mentioned in your role?To be wary of vote manipulation, as it's usual in these kinds of games.Quote from: Flabort
I believe I lowered my chances of getting my vote stolen, so I have it today, where it matters more than yesterday.
(This is to recap the answer I gave to folks about why I didn't vote yesterday, and also to preempt more questions...)
2) Mentioned in my first role (FHPBYOR), or mentioned when I got my new role? The ability said, "At any time, pick a new role name/idea, and when you die, you will resurrect as that role", paraphrased so I don't get in trouble for quoting the mod's PMs. When I died, I got the message "Your role has changed".
3) How do you believe you lowered your chances?
Flabort: You have seen my fuse ability in action. it is a phaseless 1-shot that has been used up at this time. clarify with Web if your new auto could give it to you, and what would need to be done to make it happen. tell me the results. again, I do have an infinate action mechanic if having me action you 10,000 times is necessary.I'll ask. He just responded about my previous PM to him, saying that he'll get back to me in a second, and I see no harm in asking if I could get a copy of your 1-shot ability.
Assuming you got it, would you be willing to use it on us and tie your fate to ours? be aware doing this will set your wincon to match ours even if you are currently mafia or 3rd party.
As for willingness to tie my fate to you, I'm pretty sure we're on the same team at this point, so it depends on how defensible your position is; a single mafia kill could wipe the three of us out if it works and I join you. That said, if it works, would you be opposed to me using said ability to check the alignment of someone else and tie their fate to mine?
Also, more general question for anyone:. How many BYORs had scum who could revive?I don't recall. I think it happened in either FHPBYOR 1 or 2, but I can't remember for certain. That said, those games were a bit unusual. As for it happening in Webadict BYORs, I would have to check.
If I were mafia, I would certainly jump the gun. A chance to turn on my team, rat them out, and win without them? Well, it's not very sporting, but it would be an almost guaranteed victory. As for third party, it might depend on what my win condition was, but with most third parties I think I would want to join you; it wouldn't be as beneficial to me as if I were mafia, though.Flabort: You have seen my fuse ability in action. it is a phaseless 1-shot that has been used up at this time. clarify with Web if your new auto could give it to you, and what would need to be done to make it happen. tell me the results. again, I do have an infinate action mechanic if having me action you 10,000 times is necessary.Don't jump the gun on this flabort. Unless you are mafia or third party or cult in which case go ahead and jump the gun.
Assuming you got it, would you be willing to use it on us and tie your fate to ours? be aware doing this will set your wincon to match ours even if you are currently mafia or 3rd party.
Is this an admission that you took Tea's vote?again, I do have an infinate action mechanic if having me action you 10,000 times is necessary.Hmm.
I am hypothesizing that everyone who is left can win, assuming some people are being at least partially truthful. Again, this is tentative on discussion happening.I may be biased but I feel like taking away my vote is more likely to come from mafia than not mafia and I would welcome people proving that they didn't steal mine via doing whatever the double voting format is.Flabort Flabort Flabort Flabort
The one problem is that sometimes votes just count as double-power votes, or are just not visible during voting, so this might be useless.
Also, if an all-win is possible, I would certainly be for it. My auto ability, which gives me extra abilities when targeted or when I target someone, does also give an alternate win condition - I assume it's in addition to my town ability.
Here, a full claim of my new role, inspired by self-preservation:
Peter Petrelli (Town)
(Auto) Heroes: When I target someone or am targeted by someone (it actually says "a player" here, so I'll include that in my question to Webadict that Lenglon asked), gain a 1-shot version of a random ability (Also something to ask Wuba about, it doesn't say "of theirs", I want to be clear). If I gain a power from all living players, I win.
(1-shot, used) Eerie Arrival: Kill a player that aided in your death. Blahblah blah rules about making sure that the player was one who aided in my death and if I don't pick one or I choose one who is invalid, one will be selected randomly.
And a soon to arrive new one-shot from targeting Doll, Webadict is just busy and forgot to send it, and it will arrive when they get time.
Post by: Lenglon on June 10, 2017, 09:25:25 pm
Post by: flabort on June 10, 2017, 09:32:00 pm
When you said that the only thing not WIFOM about Doll's claim is that they will die as a result of the claim, did you intend to kill them yourself? Or did you mean by voting today? Do you have any opinions, coming into today, that have changed overnight?
Tiruin
PFPWell, I guess this was in the part of the thread I was too overwhelmed to read. If I had known about this question, I would have answered yes.
I'm also in a very euphoric mood due to a significant life event that happened today--and while the net is sputtery, I'll get caught up.
That said, anyone else targeting Doll tonight? It helps me to know! @_@
What were YOU targeting Doll to do?
Also, I see you pretty much only talking about the Doll Vs Me case and emotions in mid to late day 1 and not making a case of your own. Why is that?
Jack AT
Your early suspect, Tea, is still alive, as am I and Fallacy who you voted for later in the day. It seems like the mafia purposefully avoided killing your suspects.
That said, I appreciate you putting together the reasons why each person was voting me during that most stressful period. I swear I'll eventually get back to that part that I missed and find the things that I still need to reply to, it seems like that's getting less and less important.
Persus13
I see you also resurrected. Was this part of your role?
What do you think happened to Pozzai that made them not flip?
4maskwolf
It occured to me that I should be interacting with you more, but I can't find much to go off of. Please make a case about why Lenglon-Shakerag is most definitely, positively scum, and a case about why that same person is most definitely, positively town. And explain their interactions with TolyK like I'm Calvin.
Flabort - I have reason to believe you were the target of at least one player (TDS) last night. Did you get abilities from them?We'll see when Wuba has the time.
Post by: Persus13 on June 10, 2017, 09:37:52 pm
Post by: Tiruin on June 10, 2017, 09:53:44 pm
Hum, maybe someone blocked me. Or something?
I see nothing in doll to block me.
PFP
Here, a full claim of my new role, inspired by self-preservation:So...where did you get the idea that you'd flip and be revived, in that order?
Peter Petrelli (Town)
(Auto) Heroes: When I target someone or am targeted by someone (it actually says "a player" here, so I'll include that in my question to Webadict that Lenglon asked), gain a 1-shot version of a random ability (Also something to ask Wuba about, it doesn't say "of theirs", I want to be clear). If I gain a power from all living players, I win.
(1-shot, used) Eerie Arrival: Kill a player that aided in your death. Blahblah blah rules about making sure that the player was one who aided in my death and if I don't pick one or I choose one who is invalid, one will be selected randomly.
And a soon to arrive new one-shot from targeting Doll, Webadict is just busy and forgot to send it, and it will arrive when they get time.
Tiruin:vPFPWell, I guess this was in the part of the thread I was too overwhelmed to read. If I had known about this question, I would have answered yes.
I'm also in a very euphoric mood due to a significant life event that happened today--and while the net is sputtery, I'll get caught up.
That said, anyone else targeting Doll tonight? It helps me to know! @_@
What were YOU targeting Doll to do?
Also, I see you pretty much only talking about the Doll Vs Me case and emotions in mid to late day 1 and not making a case of your own. Why is that?
I did make a case. I stood by the idea that you both can't be scum or if in the case that either of you are, it is eccentric to do such things--whereas I was more in my notes thinking you're both town but doll couldn't find a better note and went all metacognition onto your face.
I had made a case of my own in that right. :P
But seriously this night I want to know who will be targeting the person I'll be targeting :v
Also I will leave the first question hanging until later details because I do believe at least one person targeted me [YAY, HIT ME MOAR]
PPE 2 new replies
Post by: flabort on June 10, 2017, 10:09:13 pm
I somehow failed in my action o_oFrom the ability that revived me. Like I said, if I had written an ability that way, where you die, and then revive with a new role, the death would have included a flip of the old role.
Hum, maybe someone blocked me. Or something?
I see nothing in doll to block me.
PFPHere, a full claim of my new role, inspired by self-preservation:So...where did you get the idea that you'd flip and be revived, in that order?
Peter Petrelli (Town)
(Auto) Heroes: When I target someone or am targeted by someone (it actually says "a player" here, so I'll include that in my question to Webadict that Lenglon asked), gain a 1-shot version of a random ability (Also something to ask Wuba about, it doesn't say "of theirs", I want to be clear). If I gain a power from all living players, I win.
(1-shot, used) Eerie Arrival: Kill a player that aided in your death. Blahblah blah rules about making sure that the player was one who aided in my death and if I don't pick one or I choose one who is invalid, one will be selected randomly.
And a soon to arrive new one-shot from targeting Doll, Webadict is just busy and forgot to send it, and it will arrive when they get time.
Quote from: Tiruin, Continued
No, that's not a case. That's a defense. You were not pursuing either Doll or me, you were finding reasons NOT to vote us.Tiruin:vPFPWell, I guess this was in the part of the thread I was too overwhelmed to read. If I had known about this question, I would have answered yes.
I'm also in a very euphoric mood due to a significant life event that happened today--and while the net is sputtery, I'll get caught up.
That said, anyone else targeting Doll tonight? It helps me to know! @_@
What were YOU targeting Doll to do?
Also, I see you pretty much only talking about the Doll Vs Me case and emotions in mid to late day 1 and not making a case of your own. Why is that?
I did make a case. I stood by the idea that you both can't be scum or if in the case that either of you are, it is eccentric to do such things--whereas I was more in my notes thinking you're both town but doll couldn't find a better note and went all metacognition onto your face.
I had made a case of my own in that right. :P
But seriously this night I want to know who will be targeting the person I'll be targeting :v
Also I will leave the first question hanging until later details because I do believe at least one person targeted me [YAY, HIT ME MOAR]
PPE 2 new replies
Why were you voting TheBiggerFish? What made you suspect them, and what kind of case could you have made against them?
Who do you SUSPECT of being SCUM?
Post by: flabort on June 10, 2017, 10:11:25 pm
Also, I guess that makes sense, not wanting to reveal your actions or why they were performed. However, I would still like a Why if not a What.
Post by: Tiruin on June 10, 2017, 10:26:36 pm
No, that's not a case. That's a defense. You were not pursuing either Doll or me, you were finding reasons NOT to vote us....I kinda see why doll was frothing at the mouth in making a case against you.
Why were you voting TheBiggerFish? What made you suspect them, and what kind of case could you have made against them?
Who do you SUSPECT of being SCUM?
I don't have that much of a glaring obviousness to denote people as scum, but I do have enough to denote them as town. My intent wasn't finding "REASONS" to "NOT" vote you two (seriously flabort. Your words right there are tarnishing my town read on you like termites), I was stating why I didn't see voting EITHER of you based on the context, content, and basically 'how' y'all reacted to each other made sense.
Either you're being superficial scummy, or your wording went bad right there. Because it came off to me that you're implying intent.
...Which is dumb and you should've voted me on that right, right there, because of how that seriously goes.
Sans parentheses then:I somehow failed in my action o_oFrom the ability that revived me. Like I said, if I had written an ability that way, where you die, and then revive with a new role, the death would have included a flip of the old role.
Hum, maybe someone blocked me. Or something?
I see nothing in doll to block me.
PFPHere, a full claim of my new role, inspired by self-preservation:So...where did you get the idea that you'd flip and be revived, in that order?
Peter Petrelli (Town)
(Auto) Heroes: When I target someone or am targeted by someone (it actually says "a player" here, so I'll include that in my question to Webadict that Lenglon asked), gain a 1-shot version of a random ability (Also something to ask Wuba about, it doesn't say "of theirs", I want to be clear). If I gain a power from all living players, I win.
(1-shot, used) Eerie Arrival: Kill a player that aided in your death. Blahblah blah rules about making sure that the player was one who aided in my death and if I don't pick one or I choose one who is invalid, one will be selected randomly.
And a soon to arrive new one-shot from targeting Doll, Webadict is just busy and forgot to send it, and it will arrive when they get time.
Here, a full claim of my new role, inspired by self-preservation:Yeah I don't see it.
Peter Petrelli (Town)
(Auto) Heroes: When I target someone or am targeted by a player, gain a 1-shot version of a random ability. If I gain a power from all living players, I win.
(1-shot, used) Eerie Arrival: Kill a player that aided in your death. Blahblah blah rules about making sure that the player was one who aided in my death and if I don't pick one or I choose one who is invalid, one will be selected randomly.
And a soon to arrive new one-shot from targeting Doll, Webadict is just busy and forgot to send it, and it will arrive when they get time.
Also I gained a one shot day action thingy that lets me boost votes :v
This wasn't stated anywhere in my anything, so someone either gave it to me--it's in their auto, or it's because I targeted someone and this reacted like that. But that's weird (And somehow, weirder that it coincidentally references my PRE-game words :P )
Post by: flabort on June 10, 2017, 10:32:34 pm
Sans parentheses then:??? ???Here, a full claim of my new role, inspired by self-preservation:Yeah I don't see it.
Peter Petrelli (Town)
(Auto) Heroes: When I target someone or am targeted by a player, gain a 1-shot version of a random ability. If I gain a power from all living players, I win.
(1-shot, used) Eerie Arrival: Kill a player that aided in your death. Blahblah blah rules about making sure that the player was one who aided in my death and if I don't pick one or I choose one who is invalid, one will be selected randomly.
And a soon to arrive new one-shot from targeting Doll, Webadict is just busy and forgot to send it, and it will arrive when they get time.
Also I gained a one shot day action thingy that lets me boost votes :v
This wasn't stated anywhere in my anything, so someone either gave it to me--it's in their auto, or it's because I targeted someone and this reacted like that. But that's weird (And somehow, weirder that it coincidentally references my PRE-game words :P )
That's because the ability that revived me was from my OLD role, my re-death role. It's not in my new role, so of course you wouldn't see it.
Yeah, my wording went wrong, I think, or you misread it.No, that's not a case. That's a defense. You were not pursuing either Doll or me, you were finding reasons NOT to vote us....I kinda see why doll was frothing at the mouth in making a case against you.
Why were you voting TheBiggerFish? What made you suspect them, and what kind of case could you have made against them?
Who do you SUSPECT of being SCUM?
I don't have that much of a glaring obviousness to denote people as scum, but I do have enough to denote them as town. My intent wasn't finding "REASONS" to "NOT" vote you two (seriously flabort. Your words right there are tarnishing my town read on you like termites), I was stating why I didn't see voting EITHER of you based on the context, content, and basically 'how' y'all reacted to each other made sense.
Either you're being superficial scummy, or your wording went bad right there. Because it came off to me that you're implying intent.
...Which is dumb and you should've voted me on that right, right there, because of how that seriously goes.
It should be
"Tiruin, I think you're scummy because you weren't hunting scum, but instead you were defending your 'perceived town reads'. You should have been making a case against someone instead of building a defense of two people"
Post by: Tiruin on June 10, 2017, 10:41:58 pm
Yeah, my wording went wrong, I think, or you misread it.Either I did misread it, or I'm getting you being edgy is a common and consistent part of your play this game because you take things in polarity that I'm trying to 'defend' or 'reason' some kind of sticking to alignment.
It should be
"Tiruin, I think you're scummy because you weren't hunting scum, but instead you were defending your 'perceived town reads'. You should have been making a case against someone instead of building a defense of two people"
It's like the recency effect came over to you just because I was literally the ONLY outspoken person to bap what you and him was doing AND MAKE A POINT ABOUT IT.
And what do you have about another person making their own statements of their own observation of two people? :P
FoS me with content buddy. I'd like to know your perspective.
Post by: flabort on June 10, 2017, 11:11:18 pm
What is that recency effect?
Post by: hector13 on June 11, 2017, 12:19:56 am
I genuinely thought it would happen.
Flabort: sooo..... about that roleflip that didn't happen...
One would like to think that you would have clarified things with webadict, considering that it was a significant part of why you accepted being lynched yesterday knowing it was a waste for town to do so, that you also admitted. The fact you admitted it is a smidgen of towncred for you.
1) Doll had lost interest in the game, see their last post, and probably didn't take any actions.doll:Can you still talk? If you can still talk, who did you target?
doll did not visit me (and he probably didn't visit anyone else, since the planned kills didn't even happen) but flabort did visit doll. doll's stated plan was to visit everyone and since he flipped town with the role he claimed I see no reason to doubt him. To me, it seems likely that flabort blocked doll.
flabort: Explain last night.
2) After I died, I got a new, different role as per my old role's ability "Backup Role". This means I lost all my old abilities like the redirect.
3) My new role had a one-shot kill.
4) I was still feeling salty towards Doll for their personal attacks towards me, still suspected them for the things they said, and also felt that if they were going to be inactive and drop out of the game, they would be useless as an inactive lump.
5) With that evidence, can you put 2 and 2 together?
(Hint: The answer is I killed Doll)
See, there's a lot wrong here. doll lost interest in D1, reasonably so if they thought that there was nothing else to gain from it. Where did you think they lost interest in the entire game? Did you forget - somehow, given this was a major talking point of D1 - that doll knew they were going to die, one way or another, on N1, and not consider if this had an influence on their interest of the game?
Further, if you have a one-shot kill as town, why are you wasting it immediately upon a player you think will be inactive, as opposed to a player you think is scummy? Not only that, you use a 1-shot action on a player that said they were going to be dead as a result of the actions they took anyway. This does not make sense from a town perspective. Certainly not from any player who was engaged with what was going on, either.
That you think that doll is scum based on their actions yesterday is also bewildering. They essentially put themselves in a position that, had they survived N1, they were guaranteed to be lynched D2. This does not make sense from a non-town perspective, with the sole exception of the Jester.
Again, considering this on top of the previous paragraphs, why use a 1-shot action on this player?
Thus, I need you to talk through your thought processes regarding these points in great detail, in particular your decision to kill doll during the night.
Flabort:1) Not sure. The ability doesn't specifically SAY I flip, but it certainly implied it. If I were GMing a game and gave an ability worded like that, the person would have flipped because their role changed.Quote from: LenglonFlabort: sooo..... about that roleflip that didn't happen...Why did you not flip?
What changed in your role, if anything?
What did you do tonight, specifically?
2) Everything. I lost the infinite ability, I lost the power-giver ability, I lost the redirect, and the resurrect got used up. In return, I got a 1-shot kill and an auto. This auto gives me a 1-shot ability whenever I target or am targeted by a player, which if I'm reading it right is a random version of an ability they have. Speaking of which, Webadict, sent you a PM asking about that and my ability from targeting Doll?
3) I killed Doll.
Again, why did you not seek clarification from webadict regarding whether or not you flip?
Hector13
When you said that the only thing not WIFOM about Doll's claim is that they will die as a result of the claim, did you intend to kill them yourself? Or did you mean by voting today? Do you have any opinions, coming into today, that have changed overnight?
I meant they claimed they would die as a result of their own actions, claimed the mafia kill would be on them, and if they were still alive D2 they would most definitely be lynched.
I think you're telling porkies. Less sure of Lenglon/Shakerag. Curious how FoU will react to having time to explain their reads, whether they will obfuscate or come up with some good detail. Also interested to see how how TBF will piss away the day today.
You will not blame me if I completely ignore the other question here, or perhaps answer it with "mibbes aye, mibbes naw", 'cause I'm funny like that. Which is also funny, but for different reasons.
Peter Petrelli (Town)
(Auto) Heroes: When I target someone or am targeted by someone (it actually says "a player" here, so I'll include that in my question to Webadict that Lenglon asked), gain a 1-shot version of a random ability (Also something to ask Wuba about, it doesn't say "of theirs", I want to be clear). If I gain a power from all living players, I win.
(1-shot, used) Eerie Arrival: Kill a player that aided in your death. Blahblah blah rules about making sure that the player was one who aided in my death and if I don't pick one or I choose one who is invalid, one will be selected randomly.
And a soon to arrive new one-shot from targeting Doll, Webadict is just busy and forgot to send it, and it will arrive when they get time.
You doing things like this doesn't help. Your auto there is basically you saying "don't target me dudes, you might inadvertently make me win!" which is likely to be quite effective, considering how you drew enough interest from the other players yesterday to get lynched, and the flip you were so convinced would happen in order to confirm your town status was not at all forthcoming. Perhaps people didn't act upon you on N1 because people expected doll to murder you in the night, and you know you don't have that luxury this time round.
Shakerag/Lenglon - I guess it doesn't matter who the vote ends up on, since a vote for one is a vote for the other. Speaking of which:
webadict: seein' as how Shakerag and Lenglon are technically one player, how does voting them work? Separate tallies, or are they added together?
TolyK:
Hello from Wisconsin Dells!
Piss off back to your own state :P
Why should town be worried about jumping the gun here, if you are town?Flabort: You have seen my fuse ability in action. it is a phaseless 1-shot that has been used up at this time. clarify with Web if your new auto could give it to you, and what would need to be done to make it happen. tell me the results. again, I do have an infinate action mechanic if having me action you 10,000 times is necessary.Don't jump the gun on this flabort. Unless you are mafia or third party or cult in which case go ahead and jump the gun.
Assuming you got it, would you be willing to use it on us and tie your fate to ours? be aware doing this will set your wincon to match ours even if you are currently mafia or 3rd party.
Post by: Tiruin on June 11, 2017, 12:54:59 am
The problem I have with what you did is what you didn't do. Scum hunting.Yeah because you can conclude things about what I am and am not doing. :P
What is that recency effect?
It's like one can effectively scumhunt with just one day--which is a point I made about metaknowledge and Bay12; activity spikes day 1 because people like getting reads on everyone else. That is okay. Inactive or publicly viewed inactive people gain suspicion, because proactivity is a major way to win (only/major).
But in all seriousness--if you can see TBF's responses, he's garnered much in my eyes but inasmuch as building a case on him, I've got him under lockdown in the night anyway.
Recency effect = focusing more on the ending/last parts of what is being read or observed. :O
And on that note, cross-role comparisons since I'm forgetful this Sunday...
I am FHPBYOR, Town. I have an auto that resurrects me, once, and that makes me suspicious of Tea's claim that they can resurrect one person they killed - besides the fact that they'd be using an action after they died. I have two night actions; one randomly redirects the target, and one gives the target a random 1-shot out of a set list of one-shots (Protect, Inspect, Kill, Track, Watch, Karma (?), Bus, Redirect, Guard, Block). And finally I have my own one shot, the most counter of the counter claims against Tea, which gives me infinite actions for the phase that I use it, and it reads that it does not count towards my one action per phase, and that any actions taken that phase can be targeted at any number of targets, so long as I target each person only once (each). NOTE that it doesn't say that it causes me or anyone else to die....If you knew it'd auto resurrect.
You somehow DIDN'T mention the rolechange here--or on you not flipping alignment.
What made you so sure about this?
PPE: ARGH I HIT POST and then Hector posted :P
Post by: Lenglon on June 11, 2017, 01:44:12 am
What.
Hector, we're the same player.
Are you seriously voting us because one half of us put a qualifier on a plan the other half of us proposed? immediately after its proposition too.
That... I literally can't make that into an alignment tell of ANY kind. You'd have to somehow WIFOM yourself into me and him having a shared slot with different alignments.
having said that...
It is odd that no one really called out me voting for myself. But, basically, it is advantageous to me to end the day with at least one vote on me. I won't say more on that until D2 at least.Feel free to leave your vote sitting there.
Post by: Tiruin on June 11, 2017, 01:52:39 am
Hector13:I actually did want to call you out on voting yourself but early and back on--noticing 'Shakerag' voting for Lenglon-Shakerag, I chose not to and see what'd develop.
What.
Hector, we're the same player.
Are you seriously voting us because one half of us put a qualifier on a plan the other half of us proposed? immediately after its proposition too.
That... I literally can't make that into an alignment tell of ANY kind. You'd have to somehow WIFOM yourself into me and him having a shared slot with different alignments.
having said that...It is odd that no one really called out me voting for myself. But, basically, it is advantageous to me to end the day with at least one vote on me. I won't say more on that until D2 at least.Feel free to leave your vote sitting there.
Also you voted yourself in what I could see...was normal :v
And you being silly.
Otherwise, you've subtly mentioned there that it's of more importance than you being silly and drunkenly[?] voting yourself :P
Although that one votecount does tell me that Lenglon and Shakerag can both individually vote, but I do infer that anything targeting one hits the other. They just seem joined.
But yeah.
PFP
Also I targeted Lenglag because doll was both huffy (not a reason why I didn't act on him) but because he acted in the day--to PM his actions at night, as I've read on a re-read, and it was thus both outside of my context/character to go against what I said earlier given our dialogue with each other.
And that I'd confirm or deny if they're millering SK but NOOOO I failed :v
Post by: 4maskwolf on June 11, 2017, 02:14:17 am
Post by: Tea on June 11, 2017, 03:03:56 am
Post by: Shakerag on June 11, 2017, 09:49:12 am
Post by: hector13 on June 11, 2017, 10:15:40 am
Hector13:
What.
Hector, we're the same player.
Are you seriously voting us because one half of us put a qualifier on a plan the other half of us proposed? immediately after its proposition too.
Yup.
That... I literally can't make that into an alignment tell of ANY kind. You'd have to somehow WIFOM yourself into me and him having a shared slot with different alignments.
Why would I have to do that? Is that the only reason a I would be voting for you? Considering those reasons, why is bizarre WIFOM the first thing you bring up? Answer all questions, in order, if you please.
Afterward, please tell me how a fusion ability like yours could benefit the town while simultaneously be balanced enough to not unduly disadvantage third-party and, perhaps more importantly, scum.
Then you can tell me why using such an ability - one-shot (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164260.msg7481183#msg7481183), by your own admission - on D1, on a day that is unlikely to bring concrete information regarding other players alignments, would benefit the town more than waiting until later in the game.
After that, you can tell me why you, as yet unconfirmed, would use that ability as essentially an unblockable sane investigation instead of a kill, when pretty much the only way we can confirm that you are Town or that Shakerag is an SK-Miller is to make you flip. If your claim is to be believed, that removes two Town players from the pool, when it would have been much more sensible to just lynch Shakes at some point, losing only one townie, assuming he's truthing.
Then you can tell us why you failed to mention that your fusion with Shakes meant you now had a quicktopic together.
Finally, you said in the linked post that your fuse ability changes the wincon of the fused player to your wincon. What is your wincon?
having said that...It is odd that no one really called out me voting for myself. But, basically, it is advantageous to me to end the day with at least one vote on me. I won't say more on that until D2 at least.Feel free to leave your vote sitting there.
You seem awfully motivated to make me move my vote, reminding me that by voting someone that it's obvious I have suspicions over will actually benefit that someone.
I guess I'll risk it.
Post by: webadict on June 11, 2017, 11:26:42 am
Webadict:. If there was a player who had a standard wincon and an additional wincon that was like "gain a power from all living layers and you win" and you fulfilled the second wincon but not the first, could you still participate in the game?Sure. Why not?
Post by: Lenglon on June 11, 2017, 12:37:34 pm
seriously? Okay, in order it is:
1) because your accusation is self-contradictory. You are voting us for lightly opposing a plan we ourselves proposed, and doing that at the exact moment of its proposition. if said plan benefits faction X, and we are not faction X, then why propose it in the first place? you cant have it be both pro-ANYONE and anti-THAT SAME ANYONE at the same time. So what the hell are you doing?
2) bizzare WIFOM is the first thing I bring up because it's the only way I can think of to reconsile the self-contradictory nature of your accusation. Logic failures like that peeve me off to no end.
3) Wuba BYOR pre-massclaim and you want to argue ability balance. Nobody can answer that until roles are on the table, go (role)fish elsewhere since I see no reason to tell you the drawbacks of mine just because you feel threatened by us.
4) Are you seriously upset that I didn't wait until LYLO and then intentionally join the scumteam? That's your idea of a pro-town action? That is literally what you just said I should have done. What is this I don't even.
5) What. "It would have been much more sane to lynch <player A> at some point assuming <player A> is town." Yes that is how the town works, we lynch fellow townies every chance we get. also the sky is orange, and water is dry.
6)Us having a quicktopic seemed completely obvious by the nature of the fusion, so much so that I didn't even think to mention it. I very much wasn't hiding it as you could see yesterday when it came up.
7) wincons are listed in the OP hector, asking someone what their wincon is is not a valid alignment check. as I said before, Im town. I win when all anti-town factions are dead.
8) I like the vote, I just don't like the attack. or specificly the logical falacies involved in the attack. a case based on facts I can respect. This mess you tossed my way is offensive to even look at.
Hector: Why are you encouraging me to play in an anti-town manner and why does your case make the basic assumption that the lynch is controlled by scum? and why are you using "we" in talking about that scum-controlled lynch?
I mean, comon, just because Im offering to let your scumbuddy jump ship doesn't mean you can get away with this kinda stuff Hector.
Post by: TheBiggerFish on June 11, 2017, 01:12:33 pm
Post by: Shakerag on June 11, 2017, 02:36:25 pm
Hector, I'll give you a bunch of info tonight. I'm stuck in a museum right now.
Post by: FallacyofUrist on June 11, 2017, 04:34:37 pm
Post by: flabort on June 11, 2017, 04:38:18 pm
So killing Doll was a mistake. It was primarily emotionally driven, like I said, with a side of tenuous evidence. I admit my brain hasn't been fully functional during this game.Spoiler (click to show/hide)
I'm afraid I cannot walk you through any thought process in great detail, as that ^ is as much detail as I can muster.
As for why I didn't seek clarification, I don't like to have to do that, and sometimes mods don't answer everything. I tend to make assumptions, which are sometimes wrong. I have asked Wuba about the new ability(s), because it is not so clear or easy to assume things about it.
I am not sure what "telling porkies" means. Is that a regional dialect?
I explained it in a later post. Or at least I thought I did; I looked through my own posts and didn't find the information, so I'm just as confused as you are now.Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Webadict I PMed you some more questions yesterday, and I didn't get an answer when you sent my new abilities.
Everyone interested in my claims My new abilities are non-targeted. I got two abilities, one of which is clearly from Doll; a 1-shot auto which once again triggers on death: The ability is REDACTED on death, and turns me into a Caffeine addict giving me more abilities. The other ability gives everyone with Web Strands an additional Web Strand, and is only usable at night.
Post by: FallacyofUrist on June 11, 2017, 04:43:55 pm
Probably makes more since in context, nyah.
Post by: Tea on June 11, 2017, 07:53:58 pm
Starting to wonder if Fallacy is a lyncher/assassin tbh.
Post by: TheBiggerFish on June 11, 2017, 08:36:10 pm
Post by: FallacyofUrist on June 11, 2017, 10:21:52 pm
Starting to wonder if Fallacy is a lyncher/assassin tbh.Because I'm focusing on only one person, nyah? Well, that's my play style, nyah. I look around until I find someone scummy, and then I focus on them to the exclusion of most else, nyah. Mainly because I'm bad at focusing on multiple people at once, nyah.
Also, if I was an assassin, I probably wouldn't... actually, I might try to get my target killed by town in this manner, nyah. By convincing the town that my target is scummy so they get shot, nyah.
Post by: Shakerag on June 11, 2017, 11:16:20 pm
Shakerag-Lenglon: Why did you target me last night?Ok, on phone so this'll be painful.
flabort: You targeted doll last night. I find this suspicious, given that doll flipped town and suspected you were a mafia redirector.
We targeted everyone last night. So... You're not special, sorry.
Post by: Shakerag on June 11, 2017, 11:31:25 pm
I may be biased but I feel like taking away my vote is more likely to come from mafia than not mafia and I would welcome people proving that they didn't steal mine via doing whatever the double voting format is.Ok just so you don't keep freaking out over this it was me. I stole your vote. And 4mask's vote. Technically, we tried to steal everyone's vote, but I think we had a very, very sub 1% chance.
Why? To turn into a godlike LYLO smasher, of course.
Oh, and, no that's not permanent, but I can trigger it to be.
You can do all sorts of crazy shit when you mush two roles together!
Post by: Shakerag on June 11, 2017, 11:34:47 pm
Post by: Shakerag on June 11, 2017, 11:41:59 pm
Also, I was cautioning flabort to not jump the gun if he was town because if we all three merged that would be three town player slots condensed down into one. An inviting target for scum. But if flabort did merge with us we could totally hit that second wincon of his easily.
Post by: Shakerag on June 11, 2017, 11:43:13 pm
Post by: Shakerag on June 11, 2017, 11:45:25 pm
Hector13:Admittedly, I did kind of WIFOM myself into us being a role with two alignments earlier...
What.
Hector, we're the same player.
Are you seriously voting us because one half of us put a qualifier on a plan the other half of us proposed? immediately after its proposition too.
That... I literally can't make that into an alignment tell of ANY kind. You'd have to somehow WIFOM yourself into me and him having a shared slot with different alignments.
having said that...It is odd that no one really called out me voting for myself. But, basically, it is advantageous to me to end the day with at least one vote on me. I won't say more on that until D2 at least.Feel free to leave your vote sitting there.
Post by: Shakerag on June 11, 2017, 11:48:54 pm
Post by: hector13 on June 12, 2017, 12:50:51 am
Hector13: Why is your state so goddamned hot right now?
Just to vex me, specifically. It's been reasonably cool (relatively, for the time of year) this week, only starting to push 90 and being stupidly humid on the one day I'm outside to see my first pro baseball game. Single-A, but watcha gonna do.
And secondly, why would I want to go back to my state? Three years without a state budget and counting...
To be with your own, poor driving people. To be fair I'm only following my wife's bizarre license plate xenophobia. She especially dislikes Illinois ones.
Now that I've got the important questions out the way... y'all can wait 'til Tuesday for me to make a proper post. Busy-ass weekend, and tomorrow is chore day. I might get something up tomorrow, depending on what my wife does in the afternoon, but I might just use that time to terrorize digital people, 'cause god damn socializing is exhausting.
Quick summary from a quick read through of things: FoU is annoying me with the Papyrus RP and still not responding to stuff from D1, TBF is being silly, though I guess reasonably so since my long accusatory post against flabsy and Lenglon was a post made upon me waking up, and wake up time is awful. I may need to read over that post again and explain morning!hector thought processes. Lenglon is responding strongly to my pressure vote, happy happy joy joy, gives me something to do later.
Please don't post 9 pages of stuff tomorrow.
Post by: hector13 on June 12, 2017, 12:55:44 am
Porkies is Cockney rhyming slang for lies, not necessarily egregious ones like Teebs suggested. Just... general untruths, big and small.
Post by: flabort on June 12, 2017, 02:49:59 am
@flabort: Yeah, it's a regional sort of slang for "telling really big/egregious lies".I am saddened that you think I would lie, but I guess that is part of the game and in previous games I have fake-claimed once or twice. But I assure you, I have not lied in this game, though I may have forgotten facts, missed details, or glazed over vital clues, which would reflect on my posts.
Flabort:. We are fairly defensible. Exact details are need to know.Understood. Speaking of which, regarding you/lengon's idea of my getting a copy of your fusion ability, I got my answers from Wuba now. I could get abilities associated with your role(s) from you/lenglon if you targeted me, BUT not the already-used one-shot (assuming I worded the question right). Also, the two of you DO count as one player as far as my ability is concerned.
Please don't post 9 pages of stuff tomorrow.Agreed.
Hector13... Dude, if you stop voting for me I'll vote myself. There was no threat there. Did I or didn't I end d1 voting for myself?You want votes on you, but not so many that you get lynched? I am intrigued, but won't dig further into this particular line of questioning. It lends credence to the idea that Wuba is an evil genius using us as guinea pigs, as part of his plan to take over the world, though.
Post by: Jack A T on June 12, 2017, 02:51:38 am
doll's flip is basically the first half of his claim (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164260.msg7471718#msg7471718) with a redacted entry (possibly the upon-death auto?).
Little real content tonight. It's past midnight and I'm somewhat baffled by what's going on so far in the day.
doll did not visit me (and he probably didn't visit anyone else, since the planned kills didn't even happen) but flabort did visit doll. doll's stated plan was to visit everyone and since he flipped town with the role he claimed I see no reason to doubt him. To me, it seems likely that flabort blocked doll.TDS: It's worth noting that for doll to have taken both kills, he would have had to use his infinite actions one-shot, which would make him unblockable. Is there a reason why you rushed this vote out?
I believe I lowered my chances of getting my vote stolen, so I have it today, where it matters more than yesterday.TolyK: I still really don't understand how this means not voting D1 was a good idea. Substantial sacrifice (no vote D1 plus unfriendly attention) in exchange for altering the chance (not clear which way, considering how much attention it brought to your vote) of being hit with a vote interference effect N1.
Also, more general question for anyone:. How many BYORs had scum who could revive?Shakerag: Wuba BYORS...for self-revives alone, BYORs 14 (2 scum, one from each team), 10, 7, 6.3, and might be one further back. 8 had one mafioso with the ability to fake death and revive. Reviving others also pops up. Not an uncommon ability.
Oh, and, no that's not permanent, but I can trigger it to be.If you make it permanent and then die, what happens? Would the votes return to their rightful owners?
Jack ATflabort: Huh? Did you cut part of this post at some point?
Your early suspect, Tea, is still alive, as am I and Fallacy who you voted for later in the day. It seems like the mafia purposefully avoided killing your suspects.
Webadict: Say a player with multiple targets is redirected to a single target. Would they end up only targeting the single target?
Post by: webadict on June 12, 2017, 08:36:18 am
@Jack A T: All actions are redirected, unless actions permit otherwise.
Post by: hector13 on June 12, 2017, 09:38:11 am
Hector:WTF, dude? WTF? You aren't making any sense with the whole thing you're going on about.
Teebs: Also forgot this: what doesn't make sense? Specifics, man.
Will wait for a response on this prior to my über response.
Post by: FallacyofUrist on June 12, 2017, 11:26:31 am
Quick summary from a quick read through of things: FoU is still not responding to stuff from D1.Like I said, it's going to be awhile before I respond to that many questions, nyah.
On the other hand, nyah...
I do remember one of your questions from day one off the top of my head, nyah. To build on this earlier answer, one way I could improve my day game would be to practice focusing on more than one person at once, nyah. To respond to the second part of that question, good day play is actively scum hunting suspicious players, nyah. And doing it well, nyah. Y'know, with a lack of fallacies and whatnot, nyah. Telling you who's exhibiting a good day game currently will need me to read through what we have of Day 2 so far, nyah.Starting to wonder if Fallacy is a lyncher/assassin tbh.Because I'm focusing on only one person, nyah? Well, that's my play style, nyah. I look around until I find someone scummy, and then I focus on them to the exclusion of most else, nyah. Mainly because I'm bad at focusing on multiple people at once, nyah.
Post by: TolyK on June 12, 2017, 02:39:57 pm
I am voting Flabort N times to prove I didn't steal votes (I only have 1 vote).
Shakerag/Lenglon: Feel free too choose someone you trust a lot and join in.
Oh, apparently vote steal was random. Still: I stand by my logic. Day 1 vote doesn't really matter if everyone's on board, and I've said who I'd have voted.
TolyK still isn't scumhunting, nyah. Regardless of his role abilities, if he's pro-town, he should be scumhunting, nyah.Sure thing, nyah. When I have time, nyah. Why are you ending sentence with, nyah?
And you seriously are literally focusing on me, still? I mean, sure, you can be suspicious and ask me questions, but your position hasn't changed at all, and I haven't seen (maybe haven't noticed...) how you've actually done anything substantive yourself. And I think I'm not the first person to call it out, either.
PFP.
Post by: Tea on June 12, 2017, 03:17:18 pm
I do remember one of your questions from day one off the top of my head, nyah. To build on this earlier answer, one way I could improve my day game would be to practice focusing on more than one person at once, nyah. To respond to the second part of that question, good day play is actively scum hunting suspicious players, nyah. And doing it well, nyah. Y'know, with a lack of fallacies and whatnot, nyah. Telling you who's exhibiting a good day game currently will need me to read through what we have of Day 2 so far, nyah.You're mixing me up with Hector. I think your continued reluctance to think of the game in terms of who may be scum (besides one person) in tandem with your focus on theory discussions of what's good play that are very divorced from the game itself, is scummy and a waste of time. I don't remember you being this austere or tunnely when you were town in Two-Fold C9++ and I find it hard to believe that your play has regressed so much in two years.
Post by: FallacyofUrist on June 12, 2017, 05:37:22 pm
I think your continued reluctance to think of the game in terms of who may be scum (besides one person) in tandem with your focus on theory discussions of what's good play that are very divorced from the game itself, is scummy and a waste of time. I don't remember you being this austere or tunnely when you were town in Two-Fold C9++ and I find it hard to believe that your play has regressed so much in two years.Two years, nyah? Two years is a long time for a human, nyah. Especially a relatively young one, nyah.
I'd suggest you take a look at my more recent games, nyah.
[1] Sure thing, nyah. When I have time, nyah. [2] Why are you ending sentence with, nyah?[1]: Wonderful, nyah.
[3] And you seriously are literally focusing on me, still? [4] I mean, sure, you can be suspicious and ask me questions, but your position hasn't changed at all, and I haven't seen (maybe haven't noticed...) how you've actually done anything substantive yourself. [5] And I think I'm not the first person to call it out, either.
[2]: Why does it m-matter to you, nyah?
[3]: Yes, nyah.
[4]: Aside from scumhunting you, nyah? Does scum hunting not count as substantive, nyah?
[5]: Maybe, nyah. Does it change anything about your guilt, nyah?
Post by: Jack A T on June 12, 2017, 07:50:44 pm
@Jack A T: All actions are redirected, unless actions permit otherwise.Webadict: Hm. If in one night two kill actions hit a player with a one-shot autorevive, what happens?
Fallacy: There are two things that are remarkable about your play: how passive it is and how image-focused it is.
You've talked about how you focus on one person. There is no focus on one person: you're not pursuing TolyK. Ever since you finally made a case (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164260.msg7475688#msg7475688) against him (something that took prodding to even get), you've done almost nothing whatsoever. Almost all of the content you've given since then was a shift from thinking TolyK was a cult leader to guessing he might be an arsonist (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164260.msg7476836#msg7476836). Since making a case you were pushed into making (and one centred around a cult leader allegation you've largely dropped), you have put almost no effort into pursuing TolyK.
Your case was your second step out of RVS. Your first step was a read list (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164260.msg7472865#msg7472865). A read list reflects its writer's distinct observations of the game. Reads are personal. 14 of your reads were a loose activity/content order, with little indication that you had been thinking about what each player was doing and how it indicated alignment. The 15th, on the player you had 'focused' on, was a shrug. For a loose, off-the-cuff read list, only one read clearly existed at any significant level before you started writing, and the rest look to be there just to fill read slots.
You were busy, and you talk about how you focus on one player to the exclusion of others. Alright. None of this justifies 14 empty reads being given.
What have you been putting your effort into?
Well, I'm pushing it now.Telling TolyK that you're pressing a case against him. (You did for a moment.)
<snip>
You'll notice I've started pressing your case now.
Also, if I was an assassin, I probably wouldn't... actually, I might try to get my target killed by town in this manner, nyah. By convincing the town that my target is scummy so they get shot, nyah.Telling everyone that you're trying to convince us that TolyK is scummy. (While quite aware of the negative reaction your cult leader case garnered, you have done nothing since to try to convince anyone that you're right.)
Aside from scumhunting you, nyah?Telling TolyK that you're scumhunting. (You haven't been.)
There's a pattern here. You're giving an image of yourself as a canny, focused scumhunter, working to convince us that you've caught scum. You're telling a story in which you work hard to press cases, scumhunt, and prove your case.
One piece of advice: show, don't tell.
A few questions:
*How much confidence do you have in your non-TolyK reads?
*In fact, give some detail on the non-TolyK reads.
*Why have you done so little to try to convince us of TolyK's guilt?
*What makes you think arsonist?
*Do you have any other suspects?
Post by: Tea on June 12, 2017, 08:41:23 pm
I may be biased but I feel like taking away my vote is more likely to come from mafia than not mafia and I would welcome people proving that they didn't steal mine via doing whatever the double voting format is.Ok just so you don't keep freaking out over this it was me. I stole your vote. And 4mask's vote. Technically, we tried to steal everyone's vote, but I think we had a very, very sub 1% chance.
Oh yay the person that disenfranchised me is the same one arguing that they don't care enough about votes to have voted yesterday. :/ Please take some advice from Uncle Ben.
Fallacy - I don't intend to read games besides this one. I do, however, intend to do everything in my power to ensure you don't survive to endgame if you keep playing this way tho.
Post by: FallacyofUrist on June 12, 2017, 08:46:24 pm
Fallacy: There are two things that are remarkable about your play: how passive it is and how image-focused it is.
[1] You've talked about how you focus on one person. There is no focus on one person: you're not pursuing TolyK. Ever since you finally made a case (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164260.msg7475688#msg7475688) against him (something that took prodding to even get), you've done almost nothing whatsoever. Almost all of the content you've given since then was a shift from thinking TolyK was a cult leader to guessing he might be an arsonist (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164260.msg7476836#msg7476836). Since making a case you were pushed into making (and one centred around a cult leader allegation you've largely dropped), you have put almost no effort into pursuing TolyK.
Your case was your second step out of RVS. Your first step was a read list (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164260.msg7472865#msg7472865). A read list reflects its writer's distinct observations of the game. Reads are personal. 14 of your reads were a loose activity/content order, with little indication that you had been thinking about what each player was doing and how it indicated alignment. The 15th, on the player you had 'focused' on, was a shrug. For a loose, off-the-cuff read list, only one read clearly existed at any significant level before you started writing, and the rest look to be there just to fill read slots.
[2] You were busy, and you talk about how you focus on one player to the exclusion of others. Alright. None of this justifies 14 empty reads being given.
[3] What have you been putting your effort into?Well, I'm pushing it now.Telling TolyK that you're pressing a case against him. (You did for a moment.)
<snip>
You'll notice I've started pressing your case now.Also, if I was an assassin, I probably wouldn't... actually, I might try to get my target killed by town in this manner, nyah. By convincing the town that my target is scummy so they get shot, nyah.Telling everyone that you're trying to convince us that TolyK is scummy. (While quite aware of the negative reaction your cult leader case garnered, [5] you have done nothing since to try to convince anyone that you're right.)Aside from scumhunting you, nyah?Telling TolyK that you're scumhunting. (You haven't been.)
[4] There's a pattern here. You're giving an image of yourself as a canny, focused scumhunter, working to convince us that you've caught scum. You're telling a story in which you work hard to press cases, scumhunt, and prove your case.
One piece of advice: show, don't tell.
A few questions:
[6] *How much confidence do you have in your non-TolyK reads?
[7] *In fact, give some detail on the non-TolyK reads.
[8] *Why have you done so little to try to convince us of TolyK's guilt?
[9] *What makes you think arsonist?
[10] *Do you have any other suspects?
[1]: I assure you, I would be questioning TolyK a lot more if he responded to me more, nyah. My vote is still on TolyK since I think he is scum, nyah. So far, he hasn't really countered my allegations, so my vote remains on him, nyah. If he tried to counter my allegations(besides by actually scumhunting, anyway), I would respond and do that pursuing thing you're talking about, nyah. You have given me food for thought, though, nyah. If TolyK doesn't try to counter my attack, I can look through his posts of Day 2 and demonstrate why he's scummy, again, from those, nyah.
[2]: A detailed reads list would take a lot of time for me, nyah. I could look into every player's activity and give my more detailed opinion of them, but it would mean turning my focus away from TolyK, my target, nyah.
[3]: TolyK, and some cursory examination of what's currently happening, nyah.
[4]: Canny, no, nyah. Focused, yes, nyah. Yes, I'm trying to get everybody to lynch TolyK, nyah. Actually, here's a question for everybody: what is your read of TolyK, nyah? It seems to me that I'm the only one paying attention to him, nyah.
[5]: Did you miss the post where I made a case on TolyK based on his lack of scumhunting, nyah?
[6]: Not much, nyah. Some of my reads are solid, but it's not the majority of them, nyah. Even with a cursory examination, I'm fairly sure that you and hector13 are active scumhunters, and likely town, nyah. The rest, I'm not as sure about beyond general impressions, nyah. A more thorough examination would be ideal here, but that's going to be such a headache, nyah. However, I'd like to note that even when I create a thorough investigation on everybody, I'm still going to have several null reads because of the lack of activity(or more specifically, meaningful posts), nyah. I mean, when was the last time TheDarkStar posted, nyah?
[7]: Some detail given, nyah. Not enough though, nyah.
[8]: Is his lack of scumhunting not evidence enough, nyah? I did cite that in a case post, nyah. Do you not think a lack of scumhunting is scummy, nyah?
Are you defending your cult leader, nyah? :P
[9]: I've since moved on to general scum read, leaning third party, nyah. Leaning third party because I think mafia would be trying to fake scum hunt more than this, nyah.
[10]: Not as of yet, nyah.
Fallacy - I don't intend to read games besides this one. I do, however, intend to do everything in my power to ensure you don't survive to endgame if you keep playing this way tho.
Oh, you played in Two-Fold C9++, nyah?
What does it matter, as long as I'm scumhunting, nyah?
Post by: hector13 on June 12, 2017, 08:51:08 pm
Post by: FallacyofUrist on June 12, 2017, 08:53:05 pm
Post by: hector13 on June 12, 2017, 08:59:19 pm
Why not scum hunt someone who is not Tolyk instead of incessantly saying "waiting on Tolyk, nyah. Tolyk hasn't responded yet, nyah."
Post by: 4maskwolf on June 12, 2017, 09:05:09 pm
Post by: 4maskwolf on June 12, 2017, 09:07:17 pm
Post by: webadict on June 12, 2017, 09:47:33 pm
Let me know if I messed up a vote.
Vote Count
------------------------
4maskwolf -
FallacyOfUrist - Jack A T,
flabort - TheDarkStar, TolyK,
hector13 - Lenglon, TheBiggerFish,
Jack A T - flabort,
Lenglon-Shakerag - hector13,
Persus13 -
Tea -
TheBiggerFish -
TheDarkStar -
Tiruin -
TolyK - FallacyOfUrist,
No Lynch -
Not Voting - Persus13, Shakerag, Tiruin,
7 To Hammer. Day Ends on Thursday, June 15th around 8:00 PM CST.. There is an Extension available.
Quote from: Current Rules
Survival - The Mafiakill does not count toward the 1 action per Phase limit.
Post by: hector13 on June 12, 2017, 09:49:00 pm
Post by: webadict on June 12, 2017, 09:51:32 pm
Didn't you modkill origamiscienceguy?Uhh...
Frantic editing.
Post by: flabort on June 12, 2017, 09:54:16 pm
I don't think so.Jack ATflabort: Huh? Did you cut part of this post at some point?
Your early suspect, Tea, is still alive, as am I and Fallacy who you voted for later in the day. It seems like the mafia purposefully avoided killing your suspects.
Well, I'm currently suspecting Tiruin for not having ANY suspects more than I suspect you for the mafia avoiding your suspects, right now, actually, so I'm going to unvote you and vote her.
However, I think this is something for people to think about for later. Evidence to come back to.
PPE:
LOL. I actually noticed this earlier, and was going to ask, is one of OSG's powers the ability to die when already dead, but had forgotten.Didn't you modkill origamiscienceguy?Uhh...
Frantic editing.
Post by: Persus13 on June 12, 2017, 09:59:11 pm
I don't understand why Flabort and Hector are going after the people for the reasons they are, as I expect them to play better than that, but Fallacy is still my top scumpick and who we should have lynched D1.
My revive was due to an ability I had. That's all I would like to say for now.
Post by: Shakerag on June 12, 2017, 11:46:58 pm
You want votes on you, but not so many that you get lynched? I am intrigued, but won't dig further into this particular line of questioning. It lends credence to the idea that Wuba is an evil genius using us as guinea pigs, as part of his plan to take over the world, though.Nahh, just need at least one vote on me at day end. More than one doesn't do anything special for me.
Post by: Shakerag on June 12, 2017, 11:48:37 pm
Yes.
If you make it permanent and then die, what happens? Would the votes return to their rightful owners?
Post by: Shakerag on June 12, 2017, 11:50:45 pm
Sorry, don't follow?I may be biased but I feel like taking away my vote is more likely to come from mafia than not mafia and I would welcome people proving that they didn't steal mine via doing whatever the double voting format is.Ok just so you don't keep freaking out over this it was me. I stole your vote. And 4mask's vote. Technically, we tried to steal everyone's vote, but I think we had a very, very sub 1% chance.
Oh yay the person that disenfranchised me is the same one arguing that they don't care enough about votes to have voted yesterday. :/ Please take some advice from Uncle Ben
Post by: Shakerag on June 12, 2017, 11:53:29 pm
Post by: Lenglon on June 13, 2017, 12:00:48 am
Post by: Tea on June 13, 2017, 12:53:39 am
Sorry, don't follow?I may be biased but I feel like taking away my vote is more likely to come from mafia than not mafia and I would welcome people proving that they didn't steal mine via doing whatever the double voting format is.Ok just so you don't keep freaking out over this it was me. I stole your vote. And 4mask's vote. Technically, we tried to steal everyone's vote, but I think we had a very, very sub 1% chance.
Oh yay the person that disenfranchised me is the same one arguing that they don't care enough about votes to have voted yesterday. :/ Please take some advice from Uncle Ben
With great power comes great responsibility. Though it makes me feel better that your self-vote is apparently role-related/tactical.
Post by: Shakerag on June 13, 2017, 08:01:10 am
Post by: TolyK on June 13, 2017, 09:22:21 am
Aced btw, now going to sleep in... I'll be back guys, I promise. :P
Post by: TheDarkStar on June 13, 2017, 10:33:41 am
PPE: Bleh, this was supposed to be posted yesterday.
Post by: hector13 on June 13, 2017, 05:19:37 pm
Anyway...
Trying to piece together which bits of Lenglon's response is related to which bit in my post. I'm reasonably sure I got confused over how Lenglon's fusion works at some point during it, but I'll explain it when I get to it.
PPE: Alternatively, Lenglon can go through it again later, since she ignored quite a bit of it in favour of channeling her inner Lord Mandelson.
Lenglon: could you remind us of how your fusion ability works re: change in alignment? Is it you or your target that changes? There's 50+ pages to go through, so it's easier to just ask at this point.
Hector13:
seriously? Okay, in order it is:
1) because your accusation is self-contradictory. You are voting us for lightly opposing a plan we ourselves proposed, and doing that at the exact moment of its proposition. if said plan benefits faction X, and we are not faction X, then why propose it in the first place? you cant have it be both pro-ANYONE and anti-THAT SAME ANYONE at the same time. So what the hell are you doing?
What accusation did I make?
I don't think I made an accusation, I asked a question to clarify what Shakerag was doing, 'cause it was early morning and I wasn't awake enough to entertain my usual "what if "x player is y alignment, how would that change things?" thought process. Like you say, it didn't make sense, so I asked about it.
2) bizzare WIFOM is the first thing I bring up because it's the only way I can think of to reconsile the self-contradictory nature of your accusation. Logic failures like that peeve me off to no end.
You missed a bit to answer, byraway:
Why would I have to do that? Is that the only reason a I would be voting for you? Considering those reasons, why is bizarre WIFOM the first thing you bring up? Answer all questions, in order, if you please.
Kind of important for me to figure out your position here, seeing as bizarre WIFOM (isn't all WIFOM bizarre?) is still the only thing you've brought up.
3) Wuba BYOR pre-massclaim and you want to argue ability balance. Nobody can answer that until roles are on the table, go (role)fish elsewhere since I see no reason to tell you the drawbacks of mine just because you feel threatened by us.
You want to tell me that Wuba hasn't figured out how to balance a BYOR after 15 tries? Please.
Considering you've told us of the aspect of your role that I'm asking about, how am I rolefishing?
Answer: I wasn't. I'm asking you to theorycraft. Where did I suggest I was threatened by you?
A reminder of what I want:
Afterward, please tell me how a fusion ability like yours could benefit the town while simultaneously be balanced enough to not unduly disadvantage third-party and, perhaps more importantly, scum.
Ulterior motive: After N1, I know there's a player with an ability who can, for lack of a better (read: more entertaining) term, fuck you and Shakes right up. Please do use it, they-who-shall-not-be-named.
4) Are you seriously upset that I didn't wait until LYLO and then intentionally join the scumteam? That's your idea of a pro-town action? That is literally what you just said I should have done. What is this I don't even.
This was where I think my sleep-addled mind confused which way the alignment change goes. Probably 'cause I don't believe that this ability works the way Lenglon said it does, and I don't believe Lenglon is town.
Also, it is not literally what I said. 'cause literally means actually, and I didn't say that. I presented something without explaining the thought basis for it, which is what the previous line/paragraph hopefully alleviates.
5) What. "It would have been much more sane to lynch <player A> at some point assuming <player A> is town." Yes that is how the town works, we lynch fellow townies every chance we get. also the sky is orange, and water is dry.
That's a pretty textbook example of misrepresentation. Shakerag claimed Miller.
Test for some clever clogs: what ways can we confirm a Miller is actually a Miller and not scum/SK/otherwise anti-town?
6)Us having a quicktopic seemed completely obvious by the nature of the fusion, so much so that I didn't even think to mention it. I very much wasn't hiding it as you could see yesterday when it came up.
Well flabort thought it was completely obvious that they would flip 'cause of their auto or whatever, folks gotta stop making assumptions.
Thus, you hid it by omission, and you didn't bring the QT up first. I don't think you want to look like Trump by having someone representing you saying one thing, and you saying the opposite.
[aside]I hope so hard that someone submitted Donald Trump as a role.[/aside]
7) wincons are listed in the OP hector, asking someone what their wincon is is not a valid alignment check. as I said before, Im town. I win when all anti-town factions are dead.
Fair point.
8 ) I like the vote, I just don't like the attack. or specificly the logical falacies involved in the attack. a case based on facts I can respect. This mess you tossed my way is offensive to even look at.
Hector: Why are you encouraging me to play in an anti-town manner and why does your case make the basic assumption that the lynch is controlled by scum? and why are you using "we" in talking about that scum-controlled lynch?
There's a lot wrong here.
Could you explain where I encouraged you to play in a manner that was anti-town? Where did I make the basic assumption that the lynch is controlled by anyone, town, scum, or otherwise? 'cause your case is kinda dependent on those two things, and I don't see it.
What I am seeing is you taking something I say, assuming I mean it in the most anti-town way possible, using that position to put words into my mouth to that effect, using those words as a foundation to respond to, and then summing it up as "well you're obviously scum if you said that."
The collective noun thing is something I do. I use it to refer to the town at large, such as when you failed to mention you have a QT with Shakes to the town at large, or how the town at large is s'posed to confirm that Shakes is truthing with his Miller claim. I think that covers all the times that I use a collective noun in this post (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164260.msg7481753#msg7481753) which is where your case comes from.
So, to sum up, I made no case, I asked a question, demanded clarifications, and wanted you to do things like theorycraft how your role would be balanced in the game at large. If, in doing so, I offended your sensibilities... well, that's your problem, not mine.
I mean, comon, just because Im offering to let your scumbuddy jump ship doesn't mean you can get away with this kinda stuff Hector.
I like how you went from "I have no idea how to read you based on your vote and question" to "holy shit, obvscum" in one post, probably in an attempt to justify the obvOMGUS. Well done.
So, with all that in mind, perhaps you'd like to respond to things like an adult and not
Post by: hector13 on June 13, 2017, 05:19:53 pm
Spoiler: template, remove spoiler tags (click to show/hide)
Post by: webadict on June 13, 2017, 08:29:53 pm
Vote Count
------------------------
4maskwolf -
FallacyOfUrist - Jack A T, Persus13,
flabort - TolyK,
hector13 - Lenglon, TheBiggerFish,
Jack A T -
Lenglon-Shakerag - hector13,
Persus13 -
Tea -
TheBiggerFish -
TheDarkStar -
Tiruin - flabort,
TolyK - FallacyOfUrist,
No Lynch -
Not Voting - Shakerag, Tiruin, TheDarkStar,
7 To Hammer. Day Ends on Thursday, June 15th around 8:00 PM CST.. There is an Extension available.
Quote from: Current Rules
Survival - The Mafiakill does not count toward the 1 action per Phase limit.
Post by: hector13 on June 13, 2017, 09:07:55 pm
Post by: FallacyofUrist on June 13, 2017, 10:26:20 pm
Fallacy: is your nyah nonsense a post restriction or something you're doing for RPing purposes?... nyah?
Why not scum hunt someone who is not Tolyk instead of incessantly saying "waiting on Tolyk, nyah. Tolyk hasn't responded yet, nyah."That's a good idea, nyah. Finding another scummy target will probably be much easier than thoroughly examining everybody, nyah. As a bonus, it'll hopefully get some activity going, nyah.
Post by: flabort on June 13, 2017, 11:28:09 pm
I forgot about flabsy, though that's mostly is along the lines of "well you're gonna have to try to explain why you used a 1-shot on someone who was going to die anyway" so yeah.Why waste a lynch on hammering them? I saved town from quick-hammering them, only to find out that they would have been modkilled later - I mean, yes, my kill was a waste because they would have been modkilled for inactivity, but better my 1-shot than the lynch.
Post by: Shakerag on June 14, 2017, 12:35:20 am
I think I'm goingt to resume my
Post by: Shakerag on June 14, 2017, 12:35:48 am
Post by: Lenglon on June 14, 2017, 01:20:05 am
Post by: hector13 on June 14, 2017, 06:46:24 am
I made things easier for you by giving you a template, you literally just have to fill in the blanks. Why do you not want anyone to get a stronger read on you?
Post by: Lenglon on June 14, 2017, 11:23:06 am
Do... do you understand how the game works? I'd quite like to refine my read on you, which you refuse to allow me to do, 'cause you're basically saying "nah, fuck your questions, scum", which I guess is telling in and of itself.Lemmie explain what I mean by 1-bar of service, and why I havent done any rereading of the thread, at all, ever since I fused with shakerag.
I made things easier for you by giving you a template, you literally just have to fill in the blanks. Why do you not want anyone to get a stronger read on you?
I brought up my unread replies page at 17:34. which finished loading at 17:36. I clicked new on this thread at that time, and the timestamp loaded at 17:38 BUT your latest post didnt load till 17:44. I then hit reply at 17:45, which loaded thankfully at 17:46. I then typed up this reply without looking at the old posts shown below on the reply page because they take forever to load, and then typed this message to you.
I can give you the quotes you want when it wont LITERALLY take an hour to load the old pages alone, with zero time spent actually reading them, which will be on the 17th or so.
Also, sorry that I was irate earlier, I had been spending hours breathing dust and playing with C-wire, had a headache, and I shouldnt have been posting at all.
I didnt even notice your template post until this time loading the page while waiting for it to let me see past webs votecount.
Having said that, dont dodge my question. Not even you believe the what youre saying, so quit it already and just say what youre really after.
@fusion mechanic
1-shot
phaseless
both become same player
user's wincon becomes target's
share a quicktopic, which should be FUCKING OBVIOUS since otherwise we cant handle our night action - we'd both send in competing actions and theres no way to determine whos action goes through.
any other questions? glancing at your template you just repeated the same shit I already answered and numbered for you so that sack of crap can go piss right the fuck off, but if you have something worth reading I'd welcome it.
Post by: hector13 on June 14, 2017, 01:07:05 pm
Do... do you understand how the game works? I'd quite like to refine my read on you, which you refuse to allow me to do, 'cause you're basically saying "nah, fuck your questions, scum", which I guess is telling in and of itself.Lemmie explain what I mean by 1-bar of service, and why I havent done any rereading of the thread, at all, ever since I fused with shakerag.
I made things easier for you by giving you a template, you literally just have to fill in the blanks. Why do you not want anyone to get a stronger read on you?
I brought up my unread replies page at 17:34. which finished loading at 17:36. I clicked new on this thread at that time, and the timestamp loaded at 17:38 BUT your latest post didnt load till 17:44. I then hit reply at 17:45, which loaded thankfully at 17:46. I then typed up this reply without looking at the old posts shown below on the reply page because they take forever to load, and then typed this message to you.
I can give you the quotes you want when it wont LITERALLY take an hour to load the old pages alone, with zero time spent actually reading them, which will be on the 17th or so.
Also, sorry that I was irate earlier, I had been spending hours breathing dust and playing with C-wire, had a headache, and I shouldnt have been posting at all.
I didnt even notice your template post until this time loading the page while waiting for it to let me see past webs votecount.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Having said that, dont dodge my question. Not even you believe the what youre saying, so quit it already and just say what youre really after.
What question did I dodge? What am I selling? If I'm selling a case on you, surely you can tell me the read I have on you?
any other questions? glancing at your template you just repeated the same shit I already answered and numbered for you so that sack of crap can go piss right the fuck off, but if you have something worth reading I'd welcome it.
You didn't provide much in the way of response to it the last time, hence the "fuck your questions, scum" thing before.
You seem to have ignored the fact I asked you to explain your case on me, seeing as how you went from "this is a null thing you're doing" to "obvscum is obvious" over the course of a post or two, and your case, from my admittedly biased perspective, looks wholly manufactured, like you worked from the conclusion backwards.
Post by: hector13 on June 14, 2017, 01:11:11 pm
That's a good idea, nyah. Finding another scummy target will probably be much easier than thoroughly examining everybody, nyah. As a bonus, it'll hopefully get some activity going, nyah.
How goes the search, sailor?
Tea
Tolyk
Jake
Persus
4mask
Tiruin
TDS
Can y'all provide some feedback on this whole hector-Lenglon back and forth? I'm worried I'm letting my not insignificant frustration cloud my judgment.
It might even get you assholes to actually post for a change. :P
Post by: 4maskwolf on June 14, 2017, 01:11:55 pm
Nope, I'm not letting you get away with that non-answer. Not good enough. Given that you didn't do this D1 this obviously isn't a mandatory post restriction, which almost certainly means that you can tell me about it if it exists, fallacyFallacy: is your nyah nonsense a post restriction or something you're doing for RPing purposes?... nyah?Why not scum hunt someone who is not Tolyk instead of incessantly saying "waiting on Tolyk, nyah. Tolyk hasn't responded yet, nyah."That's a good idea, nyah. Finding another scummy target will probably be much easier than thoroughly examining everybody, nyah. As a bonus, it'll hopefully get some activity going, nyah.
Post by: Lenglon on June 14, 2017, 04:01:28 pm
As for my "case" on you? Pressure for you to ask better questions. If I was trying to lynch you Id be voting you more than once.
Extend - lack of activity and no conclusive lynch target.
My current preferred lynch is FoU. Flabort currently has me reasonably convinced hes probably not scum, and the people I want to hear more from the most are Tea, TolyK, Jack, and TDS, my current scummiest players are Tiruin, FoU, and Persus, with TolyK in with a special mention for third party probable but almost certainly not actual scum.
Now then, back to me and hector ripping each other apart because were t-rexes and nobody else is moving so we only see each other.
Hector: No, seriously, what the hell are you trying to acomplish? You wana know if I'm actively scumhunting? right now? no. re-reading sucks so im not doing it until i can load pages in a reasonable manner. You wana know how my Fuse works? I just told you. You wana know who I think is scum/town? listed above. You wana know my reaction to sleezy agression? it makes me pissy. Just fucking ask what you want to know already and stop dancing around playing word games asshole.
Post by: Jack A T on June 14, 2017, 04:18:31 pm
Can y'all provide some feedback on this whole hector-Lenglon back and forth? I'm worried I'm letting my not insignificant frustration cloud my judgment.hector13: Your dossier on Lenglon is rather dodgy, to keep the referential theme. (I had trouble resisting.)
I have little idea where you're going or what you're trying to say at many points, but the clear parts aren't particularly reassuring. You have a thing about role balance/skepticism of Lenglon's claim that does veer quite a bit into the realm of rolefishing (if not taken as rolefishing, the questions oft have little purpose beyond showing that you're skeptical).
Part of the clear portion isn't particularly meaningful. It would have been nice to outright know that Shakes and Lenglon had a quicktopic, yes, but it's also to be expected: two combined players pretty much have to have a way to coordinate. It's an easy omission as an easy assumption.
Then there's this:
That's a pretty textbook example of misrepresentation. Shakerag claimed Miller.And so I find myself drawn once more into the abyss of miller theory.
Test for some clever clogs: what ways can we confirm a Miller is actually a Miller and not scum/SK/otherwise anti-town?
A miller is relatively easy to confirm to be a miller: role/power inspects are a lot more reliable than alignment inspects. As for alignment, we confirm that the same way we confirm anyone else's alignment: we don't. There are pretty much no perfect confirmation methods (even flips are false, very rarely). Instead, what we do to determine a miller's alignment is, well, what we do to determine anyone else's alignments: question, use logic, and determine whose interests they seem to be trying to pursue. We just don't have alignment inspects, as they gave their inspect result already (but alignment inspects do not confirm anyway, not in a game of potential/likely framers and godfathers).
It seems to me that part of your case comes down to you distrusting Shakerag for claiming miller. Is this correct? How familiar are you with miller claim practice here?
Post by: Shakerag on June 14, 2017, 04:34:07 pm
Post by: Tea on June 14, 2017, 05:17:02 pm
Can y'all provide some feedback on this whole hector-Lenglon back and forth? I'm worried I'm letting my not insignificant frustration cloud my judgment.I independently moderately townread both Shakerag and Lenglon before the fusion. The main question for me now is a result of Lenglon explaining her choice of fusion of Shakerag as an investigation initially - waffling on her townread of him. Now that Shakerag has claimed for her that her alignment changed to be the same as his, I guess I'd like an updated explanation from Lenglon on why Shakerag was actually chosen in the first place. Somewhat relatedly, I also would like to know from Webadict if it's possible to have more than one win condition.
It might even get you assholes to actually post for a change. :P
I very much agree with the second half of Jack's recent post but have been having trouble articulating it. I highly doubt not mentioning the existence of the QT was nefarious especially since both Shake/Leng talked about it pretty casually later on. The fusion ability doesn't seem unbalanced to me on its face, nor is my reaction to a miller claim that it needs to be tested or lynched, so. I guess I feel like what's important to me about their claim isn't really what's important to you.
I think that you shouldn't be being voted rn because I think you've at least an 80% chance of having a friendly neighbor ability based on what doll said (that's the only Xylbot explanation for her getting a message that you're town + Webadict said "No PMing to anyone but me, the mod. I won't make this an action either because PMing is stupid" which makes me think it's less likely that he would put in some weird messaging-through-the-mod-role) - so from a purely mechanical standpoint you're Top Town.
-
As far as other recent thoughts, I liked DarkStar's turn-around on flabort's night behavior. I am still waiting on Tiruin to respond to the stuff I've directed at her at day start. I would be voting Fallacy if I had a vote.
Does anyone who has played with TBF know if him falling off a cliff activity-wise is an alignment tell?
Post by: hector13 on June 14, 2017, 05:20:02 pm
It seems to me that part of your case comes down to you distrusting Shakerag for claiming miller. Is this correct? How familiar are you with miller claim practice here?
To be fair that and the question of how Lenglon's fusion ability works. The initial vote and question was for a bit of pressure, then Lenglon went off the fuckin' handle, so I thought there was something to it. Evidently she's just a dick :P
Alternatively, we both assumed the other was being super srs with the voting and pressure.
Anyway, I'm reasonably familiar, though I've only played two games prior to this that it came up: firstly, one in which everyone got a bit freaked out by the Miller claim and investigated the Miller, and the other in which there was 2 Millers, which involved Leafsnail saying that the response to both of the kooks claiming in their first post meant they might try a fake Miller claim as scum to see what happened.
Shakerag was also present in the latter, and I recall the first game I played with him saying he liked to mess around with meta (he said his, but he's canny enough to do it with site meta too I imagine) so I was wary of that, plus Lenglon pretty much immediately hitting a player we can't investigate with a fusion ability and saying "nah bro it's okay I'm town, Shake's checks out" as though that even means anything.
Frankly, I think it's a medium- to long-term danger to town. If it's true, scum can deflect onto the Miller 'cause they aren't easily trusted, if it's not, well, piss all has happened this day, they might just coast by until it's too late. Especially since they have vote-stealing abilities too. Normally a town-aligned thing, but webadict's a dick too so that doesn't necessarily mean it is.
Post by: FallacyofUrist on June 14, 2017, 06:19:53 pm
Nope, I'm not letting you get away with that non-answer. Not good enough. Given that you didn't do this D1 this obviously isn't a mandatory post restriction, which almost certainly means that you can tell me about it if it exists, fallacyIt's not how I was yesterday, nyah.
How goes the search, sailor?Nothing so far, nyah. I'll try to find somebody today, though, nyah.
Post by: Jack A T on June 14, 2017, 06:49:20 pm
Webadict: Please answer. Also, are players allowed to screenshot portions of a quicktopic and post them here?@Jack A T: All actions are redirected, unless actions permit otherwise.Webadict: Hm. If in one night two kill actions hit a player with a one-shot autorevive, what happens?
I don't think so.flabort: Alright. It seemed like there were a few links missing: why them not killing one of the people I voted for makes me look suspicious, what makes it look like they actively avoided my suspects, and why this doesn't point at anyone else whose vote targets weren't nightkilled. Can you clarify?
Well, I'm currently suspecting Tiruin for not having ANY suspects more than I suspect you for the mafia avoiding your suspects, right now, actually, so I'm going to unvote you and vote her.
TheDarkStar: Can you explain what exactly changed your read on Pozzai from unreadable (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164260.msg7471863#msg7471863) to non-evil third party (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164260.msg7474669#msg7474669)?TheDarkStar: I don't think you ever answered this.
Given that you didn't do this D1 this obviously isn't a mandatory post restriction, which almost certainly means that you can tell me about it if it exists, fallacy4maskwolf: I don't see how his lack of NYAHNYAHNYAH D1 means it isn't a mandatory post restriction D2. Role changes seem to be quite a big thing in this game. Can you explain?
hector13: Ah, miller stuff. Quick overview:
Spoiler: Miller Theory (click to show/hide)
Fallacy Stuff
[1]: I assure you, I would be questioning TolyK a lot more if he responded to me more, nyah. My vote is still on TolyK since I think he is scum, nyah. So far, he hasn't really countered my allegations, so my vote remains on him, nyah. If he tried to counter my allegations(besides by actually scumhunting, anyway), I would respond and do that pursuing thing you're talking about, nyah.Stop using TolyK as an excuse to sit around and do nothing. Not only have you done almost nothing regarding TolyK, but you're also doing almost nothing regarding anyone else with the excuse that you're too focused on dealing with TolyK.
[5]: Did you miss the post where I made a case on TolyK based on his lack of scumhunting, nyah?I am quite aware of that, initially a secondary component of your case. You, however, have decided to avoid my point: while the primary portion of your case got negative feedback, you did nothing to try to persuade. You did nothing to stabilize a failing component and you did nothing to redirect your critics to the secondary component. When you sort-of-largely dropped the cult leader part and started just repeating the secondary portion, you did nothing to try to persuade. You made the occasional statement to show you still were voting for TolyK, but kept to the background. As days went by and nobody joined you, you did nothing to try to persuade. Instead of trying to persuade us to lynch your target, you tell us that you're trying to persuade us to lynch your target. Why?
Quote
Actually, here's a question for everybody: what is your read of TolyK, nyah? It seems to me that I'm the only one paying attention to him, nyah.I'm cautious. Not the most active, in part clearly due to being busy. What he does get in is focused on using his role, and he has given me reasons. The impression I currently have is misprioritization more than malice. Currently have a couple questions for him over there, as they involve material not yet public and I don't distrust him nearly enough to break privacy yet.
[8]: Is his lack of scumhunting not evidence enough, nyah? I did cite that in a case post, nyah. Do you not think a lack of scumhunting is scummy, nyah?I am aware of your point. A lack of scumhunting can be scummy in many contexts (albeit not all), such as one where the player obviously has time but does little more than try to portray themself as a serious contributor and scumhunter.
Are you defending your cult leader, nyah? :P
I love the insinuation of ill intent, joking or not. Why include that?
What does it matter, as long as I'm scumhunting, nyah?Why do you put so much effort into announcing this and similar things? Why is your self-portrayal so important?
Post by: webadict on June 14, 2017, 06:56:07 pm
I also would like to know from Webadict if it's possible to have more than one win condition.Sure.
Webadict: Please answer. Also, are players allowed to screenshot portions of a quicktopic and post them here?Absolutely not.
Post by: Jack A T on June 14, 2017, 06:57:30 pm
Post by: flabort on June 14, 2017, 07:09:52 pm
Well, it's less suspicious today than it would be tomorrow, hence me unvoting you for now, BUT, you had the most suspects and changed votes the most out of anyone day 1; as such, if you were scum, then you were spreading out "suspects" to look town, but then the scum killed one of your non-suspects so that you wouldn't have to come up with new fake-cases on the remaining suspects of yours - in fact, your fake suspects would look even more suspicious for having survived.I don't think so.flabort: Alright. It seemed like there were a few links missing: why them not killing one of the people I voted for makes me look suspicious, what makes it look like they actively avoided my suspects, and why this doesn't point at anyone else whose vote targets weren't nightkilled. Can you clarify?
Well, I'm currently suspecting Tiruin for not having ANY suspects more than I suspect you for the mafia avoiding your suspects, right now, actually, so I'm going to unvote you and vote her.
But then, it's still early in the game and probably too early for me to pull out that card. I was pretty much just jumping on the first thing I noticed about you and blowing it out of proportion while I looked for anything else suspicious.
Post by: webadict on June 14, 2017, 07:10:17 pm
Webadict: Alright, thank you. Also, as it was missed: If in one night two kill actions hit a player with a one-shot autorevive, what happens?Revives will happen at the end, so both kills succeed, kill the player, and then the player revives. Assuming no other actions.
Post by: webadict on June 14, 2017, 07:16:57 pm
fallacyError 404: Vote not found.
A few cricket begin to chirp. Night is coming soon.
Vote Count
------------------------
4maskwolf -
FallacyOfUrist - Jack A T, Persus13,
flabort - TolyK,
hector13 - Lenglon, TheBiggerFish,
Jack A T -
Lenglon-Shakerag - hector13,
Persus13 -
Tea -
TheBiggerFish -
TheDarkStar -
Tiruin - flabort,
TolyK - FallacyOfUrist,
No Lynch -
Not Voting - Shakerag, Tiruin, TheDarkStar,
Extend - Lenglon,
7 To Hammer. Day Ends on Thursday, June 15th around 8:00 PM CST. There is an Extension available.
Quote from: Current Rules
Survival - The Mafiakill does not count toward the 1 action per Phase limit.
Post by: hector13 on June 14, 2017, 07:41:08 pm
Post by: FallacyofUrist on June 14, 2017, 09:45:15 pm
[1*]Stop using TolyK as an excuse to sit around and do nothing. Not only have you done almost nothing regarding TolyK, but you're also doing almost nothing regarding anyone else with the excuse that you're too focused on dealing with TolyK.[1*] Hm, nyah. I think you're right, nyah. With regards to the second part, not the first part, nyah.[5]: Did you miss the post where I made a case on TolyK based on his lack of scumhunting, nyah?[2*] I am quite aware of that, initially a secondary component of your case. You, however, have decided to avoid my point: while the primary portion of your case got negative feedback, you did nothing to try to persuade. You did nothing to stabilize a failing component and you did nothing to redirect your critics to the secondary component. When you sort-of-largely dropped the cult leader part and started just repeating the secondary portion, you did nothing to try to persuade. You made the occasional statement to show you still were voting for TolyK, but kept to the background. As days went by and nobody joined you, you did nothing to try to persuade. Instead of trying to persuade us to lynch your target, you tell us that you're trying to persuade us to lynch your target. Why?QuoteActually, here's a question for everybody: what is your read of TolyK, nyah? It seems to me that I'm the only one paying attention to him, nyah.[3*]I'm cautious. Not the most active, in part clearly due to being busy. What he does get in is focused on using his role, and he has given me reasons. The impression I currently have is misprioritization more than malice. Currently have a couple questions for him over there, as they involve material not yet public and I don't distrust him nearly enough to break privacy yet.[8]: Is his lack of scumhunting not evidence enough, nyah? I did cite that in a case post, nyah. Do you not think a lack of scumhunting is scummy, nyah?I am aware of your point. A lack of scumhunting can be scummy in many contexts (albeit not all), [5*] such as one where the player obviously has time but does little more than try to portray themself as a serious contributor and scumhunter.
Are you defending your cult leader, nyah? :P
[4*]I love the insinuation of ill intent, joking or not. Why include that?What does it matter, as long as I'm scumhunting, nyah?[6*] Why do you put so much effort into announcing this and similar things? Why is your self-portrayal so important?
[2*] Because apparently I need a better day game, nyah. Good advice, though, nyah.
[3*] Fair enough, nyah.
[4*] Because your defense of Jack A T lends support to my (relatively crazy) cult leader theory, nyah. I'm going to need a bit more than that before I take TolyK being a cult leader as my position again, nyah. Continued defense of him over multiple days, maybe, nyah. It would be easier to figure out if you're a cultist if TolyK gave you the communications day 2, nyah.
[5*] I like how you turn the conversation away from TolyK and towards me, nyah.
[6*] Because I don't want to die, nyah. Since I know I am town, it is to my advantage to appear town, thus not be lynched, and help the town agenda till the end.
Post by: FallacyofUrist on June 14, 2017, 10:43:49 pm
Post by: Tiruin on June 15, 2017, 12:30:57 am
Sectioning my post to address many things.
Flabort, I'd love for you to make a comprehensive case on me rather than one that tries to invoke a meaning by itself.Well, it's less suspicious today than it would be tomorrow, hence me unvoting you for now, BUT, you had the most suspects and changed votes the most out of anyone day 1; as such, if you were scum, then you were spreading out "suspects" to look town, but then the scum killed one of your non-suspects so that you wouldn't have to come up with new fake-cases on the remaining suspects of yours - in fact, your fake suspects would look even more suspicious for having survived.I don't think so.flabort: Alright. It seemed like there were a few links missing: why them not killing one of the people I voted for makes me look suspicious, what makes it look like they actively avoided my suspects, and why this doesn't point at anyone else whose vote targets weren't nightkilled. Can you clarify?
Well, I'm currently suspecting Tiruin for not having ANY suspects more than I suspect you for the mafia avoiding your suspects, right now, actually, so I'm going to unvote you and vote her.
But then, it's still early in the game and probably too early for me to pull out that card. I was pretty much just jumping on the first thing I noticed about you and blowing it out of proportion while I looked for anything else suspicious.
Because you're not representing me there--you're representing your viewpoint, and I have mentioned before that your viewpoint is both LACKING and...it's not definitive, as if there's an agenda beforehand (and it's really being sandpaper-y with my D1 notes on you AND doll)
Do you think my 'lack of suspects' has any validity when I've concisely detailed my views on who ISN'T MY SUSPECTS (and thus, can be suspected in itself of 'maybe she's scum! Because she's playing it safe and withholding her views!'), because ANY OF THESE are not mentioned by you other than a generalization up there.
I stand by what I said before, in that I'm STILL BLOODY SEEING LENGLAG THE SAME [but for Hector, adding notes] (and that 6pt message is mean :I I'm still culture shocked by how casual y'all use expletives! It's like Captain America in the modern time)
Tea
Tolyk
Jake
Persus
4mask
Tiruin
TDS
Can y'all provide some feedback on this whole hector-Lenglon back and forth? I'm worried I'm letting my not insignificant frustration cloud my judgment.
It might even get you assholes to actually post for a change. :P
Problem is, what I've got in my list of notes is that I'm feeling more confident that there is a 3 person (y'know, approximately) scumteam, because there's a sense of a lack of standing out--as those I've noted AS standing out are partly playing...somewhat shallowly. Like Flabort. :v
That said, I'm unsure why you're chasing after Lenglag ifinasmuch as that LENGLON's power fused with SHAKERAG--Shakey may have been SCUM [Mafia] and she joined him and is backing him up; HOWEVER it seems unlikely given how they've been posting lately, and within the details of what had happened last night.
Unless I'm forgetting, TolyK, were you the dude who stated you'd do a mass-block N1?
I recall reading something on some kind of that back in Day1.
Now lets' have some Day 2 reeds.
Many are gray because i haven't had time (because no net :V) to update my notes and otherwise.
Everyone: Why is FoU or Flabort being the spotlight of the day? (as far as I've gathered as it seems anyway)
4maskwolf - Same as FoU
FallacyOfUrist - Haven't followed on this guy thanks to a ton of otherguys that were more interesting [no offense]; hasn't stood out to me earlier.
flabort - I'm now unsure, rather than my earlier (and better) read back on D1 given his behavior lately [and the content within]; while it is understandably believable that one forgets or otherwise misplaces information about their OWN ROLE, especially in IMPORTANT situations like 'I revive when dead -- I'm on the lynching block? [I guess I didn't ask that one thing on what happens :x]'...there's a strange lack of quality that's consistent now that he's making a case...to me?
Bias aside, re-reading his chats with doll do give the same feeling that they may both be town [I was more certain about doll, and to reiterate which is why I chose not to target him thanks to that, by believing his earlier notes of 'I'm ded d2']
hector13 - >_> I'm totally lacking time. Gray. What I've read thus far ias pretty okay-ish though. More details to follow if I can.
Jack A T - Tied with TolyK;
Lenglon-Shakerag - Town. Or SK. Whatever. Both are against mafia. And I'm doing all I can do protect their pink cloaks. :3 ...Because Shakerag is a pink shyguy.
Persus13 - I've not read much on him (Ok I have), and he's in the gray too. There's little standing out about him as I'm recalling only vagueness when I try to recall out of the many people present.
Tea - Town; with Pozzai. But Pozzai somehow never flipped :V But I still believe he's town.
TheBiggerFish - Ugh. Where's the activity. Unsure if scum because it's unhelpful, but the night never speaks as much as the day.
TheDarkStar - Gray; following up.
Tiruin - Hi. Boop me tonight or poison me. :v
TolyK - Curious; hasn't followed up on me lately despite his stance on the latter part of Day 1; tied with Jack in a way. Somehow has something with Shakerag/Lenglon that I may have lost in my page re-reads. If grouped as scum; TolyK/Jack/Shakerag may be a team :V as impossible as it seems.
Also I'll test if I've a vote; TheBiggerFish.
Why I'm doing that is the same as before--he's a middleman in my reads list of gray, and middleman meaning 'he's not participating but posting literally everywhere else on the forum; what posts he does here is pretty much in brevity and not leaning one way or another--in a proactive way'.
TDS
unvote because I can see townflabort killing off doll. I mean, I can see scumflabort doing the same thing, but it's not enough to make me think he's scummy. I need to reread his interactions before I decide to vote him. Fallacy is still on my suspicion list (from yesterday) but I need to read through today again.Why would Flabort kill off doll, to bring up the presumption given EVERYTHING OF DOLL'S CONTENT YESTERDAY?!
PPE: Bleh, this was supposed to be posted yesterday.
Also why have you never mentioned that DCSS is taking up your time back in my somewhat-casual request yesterday? :P
Also I'll vote to Extend because I haven't found a good alternative target yet.Wasn't it stated by Webbywubs that we can't extend?
Post by: Tiruin on June 15, 2017, 01:38:34 am
To clarify on Hector-Lenglon/Shakeys: How hector responded, while having quite a pointy tone in itself, is also much on why I mentioend the okay-ish part (How he spoke (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164260.msg7481753#msg7481753)), and why I'm voting TBF is because I saw the response to Hector and...that's it.
...Nothing thereafter in his posts or his post log, considering Hecty both answered (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164260.msg7484098#msg7484098) Lenglon's response and TBF (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164260.msg7482579#msg7482579). These in 'how' Hector speaks, alongside how he prodded FoU's note on "I'm scumhunting"; 'no ya ain't :V', is more on why I wrote okay-ish.
TBF: Activity in this thread please, even if others you'rre playing in or posting in are important too.
@Tea: On here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164260.msg7480804#msg7480804); sorry for my messiness .-.;
1. "Initiative of communication (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164260.msg7477300#msg7477300)" is '[I/me] taking the effort to initiate or start a conversation or communicate with [this subject or party]'.
2.
Quote
2) Who are you referring to when you say flabort's emotional reaction to his lynch makes sense because he is being voted by someone in absentia??Err, I think that was to flabort or whomever commented (I think it was Lenglon) on his emotional RE-action to doll's post. Yeah doll was voting...in absentia, but I'm saying flabort's reaction is sensible because in my perspective: It's a normal response when someone has something, especially personally, to react in a D: way, as it's squandering something else that's important [the lynch].
Err, did I understand you right?
3.
Quote
I'm trying to understand your play yesterday, in that you seemed to be very cagey and to be dropping softclaims everywhere. You then encouraged TolyK to press you. You then started giving a reason behind many of those cagey softclaims. I don't understand why you felt the need to be so much less cagey about what you'd been saying about your role at that point. Can you elaborate on that?I'm softclaiming because I want to be targeted--essentially by scum :P (It's also why I've blatantly mentioned 'please don't investigate me I'm town', and made it super blatant) I'm unsure why it's being seen as cagey, but I can see how that's understood on a re-read >_>
And yes I encourage tolyK to press me because I see his interest in me even if I'm unsure of his alignment. All of this will be explained later on, but my play yesterday is more actually revolving around 'please target me [scum]'. :O Nothing else.
But I am still serious in knowing who else will target Lenglon/Shakerag. :P
Post by: Tea on June 15, 2017, 02:50:15 am
Quote from: Tiruin
(x (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164260.msg7478483#msg7478483)) ...ALso doesn't it make sense to be PRETTY upset that one is to lose an ACTUALLY IMPORTANT and rather pragmatic ability/auto because of the reasons presented--including a vote of one person in absentia?Specifically the in absentia part doesn't make sense to me because the saltiness about being the main wagon primarily predated doll's exit from the thread -- what you quoted in the post that I just quoted was from waaay before doll was in absentia. So I'm having trouble understanding why, before flabort really verbally reacted to doll specifically being absent, you were thinking of that as a good explanation for how flabort was thinking of his lynch. I'm also confuddled by how much conviction you seem to have about that (since you're using stretchy points to communicate that conviction IMO) when the strength of your flabort townread doesn't seem super strong.
Doll, in as far as I believe in his competence, would probably have actually left since that's one part none of us can control; but I don't believe he would leave the follow-up unread. What I mean is he may lurk through this, and thus I'm still targeting his husk of an account later on.
~
I see ~0 pro-town motivation for you suddenly being so open about how you wanted people to target you the second that TolyK started pressing you, if your intent was to be targeted by scum specifically. Don't necessarily think you should go into it right now but do note that it's something I'll be expecting an explanation for down the line.
Post by: Tiruin on June 15, 2017, 03:07:44 am
I see ~0 pro-town motivation for you suddenly being so open about how you wanted people to target you the second that TolyK started pressing you, if your intent was to be targeted by scum specifically. Don't necessarily think you should go into it right now but do note that it's something I'll be expecting an explanation for down the line.Yes >_> <.<
Because I'm being open about it now as I do (...subtly?) believe it's pretty obvious to them.
That's why I'm noting it openly, now.
Compared to before.
...It's not 'sudden'. :P
And I've not stated HOW I "want" people to treat me (seriously why am I seeing an idea of assuming my intent to how others will act to me @_@), I've stated something general and vague at the time of writing back then.
Also to dissuade TolyK, because I'm leaning on him being town :v and not to waste stuff on me, by being pretty transparent.
*ahem*
Yep.
Quote
I'm also confuddled by how much conviction you seem to have about that (since you're using stretchy points to communicate that conviction IMO) when the strength of your flabort townread doesn't seem super strong.You got my main point :D
Yes it wasn't super strong. Back then it's more me seeing something with Flabort/Doll's connections. It's not super strong now either, but I am doubtful that he can be in a scumteam with that kind of attitude. However I'm not leaning onto these doubts because how he's acting is moreso something outside a subtle groupplay at the current time.
...Back then, me 'thinking about him thinking about his lynch' wasn't before his reactions, but after, and addressing what someone else was reacting to about his reaction.
Also sorry for messiness. Not good net = not good time. :-X
Quote
So I'm having trouble understanding why, before flabort really verbally reacted to doll specifically being absent, you were thinking of that as a good explanation for how flabort was thinking of his lynch.Err, I think I'm lost in wondering what you were referring to (which was on wondering what I was referring to?) :-[ :-X
Basically what I was referring to back there was me giving my own opinion on flabort's emotional reaction to being lynched and why I thought it made sense, as compared to Lenglon(?)'s reaction quoted.
Can't load it right now because rains + bad internet :I But I'll try to get in more if you need any clarification there.
Otherwise, it's 4pm Thursday and there's around 12+ hours left before day end.
Post by: Lenglon on June 15, 2017, 04:57:48 am
So... Flabort killed doll, Pozzai Im guessing "killed" himself for one day and will be back tomorrow, and that means the scumkill was probably Persus13.
...
I might need to adjust my read of him then.
anyways, Ive decided TolyK is probably town or 3rd party, because reasons, Flabort is probably town, because other reasons, Hector is probably a friendly neighbor (town), and I can clear myself and shakerag.
That leaves...
FoU, Tiruin, Tea, Jack, TDS, TBF, and 4mask.
of the above, TBF and Tir are in reserved unreadable slots, so Ill ignore them for now.
FoU, Tea, Jack, TDS, and 4mask.
Jack Ill leave to TolyK as his problem.
FoU, Tea, TDS, and 4mask.
emotional me didnt like unvote, Fou, LengRag either so Ill vote him to put him in prime lynch territory in case of no
extend and put one on ourselves for mechanics reasons, leaving our other votes in Shake's hands as is fair.
and that leaves Tea, TDS, and 4mask, all of whom got super-quiet when their votes were taken.
...
Tea and 4mask: why shouldnt we make the votes we stole permanantly stolen?
Post by: Shakerag on June 15, 2017, 07:34:33 am
My reads posted above are me going emotional, and just saying my impressions. now to let rational me take a swing.To clarify, we received a mod message that hector13 lets us know he is town. Which, truthfully, is not a guarantee but is more likely than not accurate.
So... Flabort killed doll, Pozzai Im guessing "killed" himself for one day and will be back tomorrow, and that means the scumkill was probably Persus13.
...
I might need to adjust my read of him then.
anyways, Ive decided TolyK is probably town or 3rd party, because reasons, Flabort is probably town, because other reasons, Hector is probably a friendly neighbor (town), and I can clear myself and shakerag.
That leaves...
FoU, Tiruin, Tea, Jack, TDS, TBF, and 4mask.
of the above, TBF and Tir are in reserved unreadable slots, so Ill ignore them for now.
FoU, Tea, Jack, TDS, and 4mask.
Jack Ill leave to TolyK as his problem.
FoU, Tea, TDS, and 4mask.
emotional me didnt like unvote, Fou, LengRag either so Ill vote him to put him in prime lynch territory in case of no
extend and put one on ourselves for mechanics reasons, leaving our other votes in Shake's hands as is fair.
and that leaves Tea, TDS, and 4mask, all of whom got super-quiet when their votes were taken.
...
Tea and 4mask: why shouldnt we make the votes we stole permanantly stolen?
Post by: Persus13 on June 15, 2017, 09:00:51 am
Post by: Tiruin on June 15, 2017, 09:41:35 am
LengRag;
Now that you've got a vote on yourself, who'd you pick with that other vote?
Also why did you steal the votes from those people you stole from (Can't seem to find it or mention of it :-[)
Post by: Shakerag on June 15, 2017, 10:00:04 am
PFP and BLUHWell, actually, we tried to steal the votes from everyone. There was a chance for each target. Tea and 4mask just happened to be the ones we got successes on.
LengRag;
Now that you've got a vote on yourself, who'd you pick with that other vote?
Also why did you steal the votes from those people you stole from (Can't seem to find it or mention of it :-[)
Just to restate: Why did we try to steal everyone's votes? Well, partly because we could (hey, it's a BYOR), but also because with our combined abilities if we controlled the vote we'd pretty much be able to steamroll anyone anti-town.
TolyK:
I'm thinking of doing that chat thing with you. Just waiting on Lenglon to give the thumbs-up.
Post by: Lenglon on June 15, 2017, 10:25:24 am
Post by: Lenglon on June 15, 2017, 10:59:18 am
Post by: Tea on June 15, 2017, 01:41:12 pm
.
and that leaves Tea, TDS, and 4mask, all of whom got super-quiet when their votes were taken.
...
Tea and 4mask: why shouldnt we make the votes we stole permanantly stolen?
I mean, you have more information about how good of a thing that is to do from your POV than I do, so it doesn't make much sense for me to wildly speculate. Not having a vote has made me feel a lot less invested - in tandem with my lack of fun stuff to do at night, it makes meaningfully impacting the game feel like an uphill battle, and I guess I'm just not willing to put more effort in than most of the people that can actually decide the lynch.
I find it unlikely Pozzai would intentionally fake-kill himself N1 because we have a thing about finally both making it to D2 in a game together (has never actually happened). Although, that IS often because he dies N1, but I would think this would be the game where that wouldn't happen. Still seems less likely for him to do that than the avg person.
I have light townreads on both 4mask (trending down) and Dark Star (trending up) so I think we have better odds of hitting scum in your reserved unreadable pool.
Post by: Lenglon on June 15, 2017, 02:11:03 pm
Still gonna be posting via horrible phone signal until the 18-22 because my boss's boss's boss's boss fucked up.
Tea: lets have a little thought experiment. If you still had your vote by proxy - as in I was willing to vote ANYONE you wanted with one vote to represent your vote still being yours, who would you tell me to vote and why?
4mask: same thought experiment would apply, but you did just try to vote so ill assume thats who youd vote. please tell me if Im wrong.
Post by: FallacyofUrist on June 15, 2017, 02:28:07 pm
Also I'll vote to Extend because I haven't found a good alternative target yet.Oops.
Well, since I failed my optional post restriction, I feel fine saying what's up with that: if I hold to a certain post restriction during the day, I can use a certain ability during the night.
Post by: Tea on June 15, 2017, 03:35:45 pm
... I hate my life.
Still gonna be posting via horrible phone signal until the 18-22 because my boss's boss's boss's boss fucked up.
Tea: lets have a little thought experiment. If you still had your vote by proxy - as in I was willing to vote ANYONE you wanted with one vote to represent your vote still being yours, who would you tell me to vote and why?
4mask: same thought experiment would apply, but you did just try to vote so ill assume thats who youd vote. please tell me if Im wrong.
Also PFP. As previously stated, my top scumread and preferred Lynch today is still FoU. He continually primarily posts theory and empty promises of changing his play, and his TolyK trajectory lacks genuine depth/nuance.
Post by: 4maskwolf on June 15, 2017, 03:44:09 pm
Jack: Honestly, because I don't think that webadict would make a post restriction that is that godawfully annoying. Wubsy is not a fan of post restrictions to begin with and the last time I saw a post restriction in a webadict game it was faked by the mafia to divert attention.
Lenglon: What actually happened is I forgot that I didn't have a vote and tried to vote even though I didn't have one. But yes, I want FoU lynched, otherwise I wouldn't have tried to vote for him.
Post by: Shakerag on June 15, 2017, 03:56:36 pm
Post by: Shakerag on June 15, 2017, 04:53:38 pm
FoU
LengRag
Post by: flabort on June 15, 2017, 06:34:23 pm
Ayyyy reeeds! :O Having horribad internet at the moment; it's hindering my performance.Well, let's answer this "Everyone" question first.
Sectioning my post to address many things.Flabort, I'd love for you to make a comprehensive case on me rather than one that tries to invoke a meaning by itself.Well, it's less suspicious today than it would be tomorrow, hence me unvoting you for now, BUT, you had the most suspects and changed votes the most out of anyone day 1; as such, if you were scum, then you were spreading out "suspects" to look town, but then the scum killed one of your non-suspects so that you wouldn't have to come up with new fake-cases on the remaining suspects of yours - in fact, your fake suspects would look even more suspicious for having survived.I don't think so.flabort: Alright. It seemed like there were a few links missing: why them not killing one of the people I voted for makes me look suspicious, what makes it look like they actively avoided my suspects, and why this doesn't point at anyone else whose vote targets weren't nightkilled. Can you clarify?
Well, I'm currently suspecting Tiruin for not having ANY suspects more than I suspect you for the mafia avoiding your suspects, right now, actually, so I'm going to unvote you and vote her.
But then, it's still early in the game and probably too early for me to pull out that card. I was pretty much just jumping on the first thing I noticed about you and blowing it out of proportion while I looked for anything else suspicious.
Because you're not representing me there--you're representing your viewpoint, and I have mentioned before that your viewpoint is both LACKING and...it's not definitive, as if there's an agenda beforehand (and it's really being sandpaper-y with my D1 notes on you AND doll)
Do you think my 'lack of suspects' has any validity when I've concisely detailed my views on who ISN'T MY SUSPECTS (and thus, can be suspected in itself of 'maybe she's scum! Because she's playing it safe and withholding her views!'), because ANY OF THESE are not mentioned by you other than a generalization up there.
Now lets' have some Day 2 reeds.
Many are gray because i haven't had time (because no net :V) to update my notes and otherwise.
Everyone: Why is FoU or Flabort being the spotlight of the day? (as far as I've gathered as it seems anyway)
FoU is in the spotlight due to... well, a similar reason to why I suspect you, best summarized in This post here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164260.msg7483204#msg7483204), and I'm in the spotlight because I killed Doll and didn't flip like I claimed I would, when I honestly thought I would.
As for your demands directed specifically in my direction, what I'm trying to make clear is that saying "X subgroup of people is NOT suspicious", especially when that subset is super small, is not conductive to finding who IS suspicious. Yes, you've clearly pointed out that neither Doll nor I are suspicious to you, which is some damn fine town-hunting. Town hunting, also known as buddying, is not useful to the town, we need scum hunting. So, for conciseness, let's go through aaaaallll your posts, and find if there are any places where you do any scum hunting.
Spoiler: Posts in Isolation thanks to Zombie Tracker (click to show/hide)
Got to go, if there's anything else addressed to me I'll be back tonight.
Post by: flabort on June 15, 2017, 07:01:50 pm
In summary, your lack of scum hunting, emphasis on town-reading everyone, your emphasis that shakelon must be a third party, all point to you being scum (because it is difficult to fake a case and you want people to suspect the people you've been town-reading when you flip).
Post by: Tiruin on June 15, 2017, 11:00:00 pm
See this is why I'm having a conflicting read on you Flabort; you CAN present a comprehensive and detailed case, but what conflicts it is you're being very pointy (which underscores bias) in how you mention it <_<
As in, you mention 'scum' but not how that makes sense of BEING scum. That's the content that is most important in making a case regardless of how much detail is put onto one's insight onto another's posts in details.
Also to outline doll's important notes--he made a very precise mention of how behaviors can outline one's abilities, and the way I'm behaving is for a reason towards that note. :P
That said, there's 'emphasis': Please explain how you see emphasis and how that makes someone scummy one way or another.
Quote
As for your demands directed specifically in my direction, what I'm trying to make clear is that saying "X subgroup of people is NOT suspicious", especially when that subset is super small, is not conductive to finding who IS suspicious....It's both that one is saying this subset isn't suspicious, because it cuts out who they can find is suspicious and directs their efforts towards those who aren't in that subset. This is very reasonable though.
Quote
Yes, you've clearly pointed out that neither Doll nor I are suspicious to you, which is some damn fine town-hunting. Town hunting, also known as buddying, is not useful to the town, we need scum hunting. So, for conciseness, let's go through aaaaallll your posts, and find if there are any places where you do any scum hunting.And this is the pointyness that is like sandpaper :v
"Buddying"
Jargon that is used in a personal context to mean something, requires its context within the game too, to mean more.
I'm not "BUDDYING" when I'm noting 'this person isn't within my suspicion list because of [these reasons]'; 'these people who aren't within those people are people I can be suspicious of' [followed by reasons].
Buddying is one of the commonly used terms I keep seeing being thrown about that it gives me the idea that it's moreso an emotional thing or a reactive tell. Something to give an impression rather than a context clue. You've WHOLLY missed in your post recap of me (but thanks, now I've a full post to link and quote everytime I would like a recap of my posts), that I have stated my suspicions on the scumteam being...methodical.
Someone wiped out the replacement, helping the game, which is good. This is one impression I'm using in that one note of the scumteam; second is that given my LACK of mention towards others' being pointedly making a case, it's to give notice that the scumteam is moreso acting or relying on their abilities rather than a strong day play [riding the waves and all; there are MANY weak targets to go after here, and the lack of mention towards me that way too {like...the whole post I made on scumteam thinking, nothing was done about it. The post about TolyK's case on me being dropped somewhere alongside post-D1, nothing too}, tells me too that there's something moreso going during the night than the day]
And to note how you've added every single note to all my posts does help too. :3
It's pointedly in your language. How many times have you used the word 'fishing' there?
Quote
all point to you being scum (because it is difficult to fake a case and you want people to suspect the people you've been town-reading when you flip).Why this is sandpaper-y like I mentioned, is because it's either you're going all out on me for trying to make a case as scum, or you're town and making your best point. Either way, in communication on both parties; all these information will be useful later on.
Although...I am concerned.
Why is 'town hunting', called 'buddying'?
Post by: Tiruin on June 15, 2017, 11:18:49 pm
... I hate my life.Well I love your life :O
TolyK/TBF: Whatsoever happened to those notes you wanted to poke me about?
Quote
Players:And from my horribly organized notes; doll spent their shots at two people. Doll either died because of his abilities or because someone killed them back. THere's some kind of redaction to flips. We've 12 out of 15 alive [since Lenglon + Shakerag = together ♥], and there seemed to be a massblock on N1 but I couldn't go back and recheck (despite trawling through 20 pages since page 51 prior <_<) and note if anything like that was mentioned.
4maskwolf
FallacyOfUrist
hector13
Jack A T
Lenglon-Shakerag
Tea
TheBiggerFish
TheDarkStar
Tiruin
TolyK
Ded but revived, so not really dead:
Persus
Flabort
Ded:
OSG (Modkill'd)
doll (N1)
Unknown:
Pozzai - Seemingly killed but no flip
Post by: webadict on June 15, 2017, 11:21:53 pm
Tick. Tock.
It's an eerie type of quiet when you surround someone and decide that they need to be gotten rid of. It's a slow dramatic silence, deafening to all those present. Time was moving at a rate of one second per hour.
So, let's take a brief reprieve from this scene.
I bet you're wondering why. It's mostly because there's no reason to draw this out. This has been a long time coming. There's nothing that's been more certain than this particular event at this particular time for any amount of time. That's pretty much a for sure thing. In fact, this is so widely known that it's not even worth telling you how widely known this fact is. That's how certain this particular event is.
Certainly, this certain fact, ascertained by certain certaining, is so certain, that the certain ascertaining is so ascertained that certainly, this certain fact need not be ascertained.
Because FallacyOfUrist is certainly...
FallacyOfUrist has been lynched!
FallacyOfUrist was the Overworld (mafia).
Vote Count
------------------------
4maskwolf -
FallacyOfUrist - Jack A T, Persus13, Lenglon, Lenglon, Shakerag,
flabort - TolyK,
hector13 - TheBiggerFish,
Jack A T -
Lenglon-Shakerag - Tiruin, Shakerag,
Persus13 -
Tea -
TheBiggerFish -
TheDarkStar -
Tiruin - flabort,
TolyK - FallacyOfUrist,
No Lynch -
Not Voting - TheDarkStar, hector13,
Extend - Lenglon, FallacyOfUrist, Persus13,
7 To Hammer. Day Ends on Thursday, June 15th around 8:00 PM CST. There is an Extension available.
Quote from: Current Rules
Survival - The Mafiakill does not count toward the 1 action per Phase limit.
It is now Night. Night ends Monday, June 19th at 8 PM or until I have all actions.
Quote
The Overworld
(Day) Game Mode: Change the rules of the game. These rules are visible to all players. You cannot choose Spectator on Day 1.
(1-Shot, Mafiakill) Server Ban [target]: Kill the target. If the target would resurrect, you steal that ability first.
Additional Information
Rules:
Survival - The Mafiakill does not count toward the 1 action per Phase limit.
Creative - The next Mafia Player to die revives. This ability only triggers once per game.
Hardcore - Whenever a Mafia Player uses a Mafiakill, they may also choose to Block their target.
Spectator - The Mafiakill is a Day action.
Adventure - The Mafiakill cannot be redirected or blocked.
Post by: flabort on June 17, 2017, 02:46:01 am
Post by: Tiruin on June 17, 2017, 03:31:26 am
Post by: Persus13 on June 17, 2017, 08:16:42 am
Post by: webadict on June 17, 2017, 09:38:43 am
Post by: webadict on June 19, 2017, 08:08:32 pm
Except, this guy was already dead before, right? One of you looks over the body of Pozzai, and concludes that they were most definitely already dead.
Weird.
hector13 has been killed!
hector13 has come back to life!
Pozzai has been found!
Pozzai was Hops (town).
Vote Count
------------------------
4maskwolf -
flabort -
hector13 -
Jack A T -
Lenglon-Shakerag -
Persus13 -
Tea -
TheBiggerFish -
TheDarkStar -
Tiruin -
TolyK -
No Lynch -
Not Voting - TheDarkStar, hector13, Jack A T, Persus13, Lenglon, 4maskwolf, Shakerag, Tiruin, Tea, flabort, TheBiggerFish, TolyK,
6 To Hammer. Day Ends on Thursday, June 22th around 8:00 PM CST. There is an Extension available.
Quote from: Current Rules
Survival - The Mafiakill does not count toward the 1 action per Phase limit.
It is now Day.
Quote
Hops
(Auto) Ferment: On Day 3, you become Beer. You maintain all of your actions and gain those from Beer.
(Night) Bine [target]: Create an inconvenient blockade for the target. The target is randomized.
(Night) Bitter Preservative [target]: Guard the target from kills. If the target would die, you die instead.
Role InformationQuoteBeer
(Auto) Barrel Age: On Day 5, you become Stout. You maintain all of your actions and gain those from Beer.
(Night) Intoxicate [target]: The target is blocked after getting way too drunk to go out.
(Night) Imbibe [target]: The target actions you instead of their intended target.QuoteBarrel Stout
(Auto) Aged: You have an additional vote.
(1-Shot) Loosen Up The Mod: Ask the Mod a yes or no question. Get an answer.
Post by: FallacyofUrist on June 19, 2017, 10:05:52 pm
Bah, nyah.
Post by: flabort on June 20, 2017, 01:24:44 am
I gained three abilities in the night - since I had no targeted actions, these were all from targeting me.
I hope one of the people who targeted me can tell me who else targeted me. Because one of those people is scum, for sure.
So... I guess we weren't permitted to talk at night, but the GM left the thread unlocked. I'd get into speculation as to why, especially considering the way Wuba phrased "if you are not allowed to talk at night", but that would probably be an unhelpful conversation. I didn't see what Tiruin or Persus had said, because they had edited away their posts on Wuba's request when I looked - probably just "why is this thread unlocked at night", like I think I did.
To start this day off, Tiruin.
That said, there's 'emphasis': Please explain how you see emphasis and how that makes someone scummy one way or another.QuoteAs for your demands directed specifically in my direction, what I'm trying to make clear is that saying "X subgroup of people is NOT suspicious", especially when that subset is super small, is not conductive to finding who IS suspicious....It's both that one is saying this subset isn't suspicious, because it cuts out who they can find is suspicious and directs their efforts towards those who aren't in that subset. This is very reasonable though.
Emphasis (http://www.dictionary.com/browse/emphasis): I will refer to the British Dictionary Definitions farther down the page. 1) special importance or significance, 2) an object, idea, etc, that is given special importance or significance, 3) stress made to fall on a particular syllable, word, or phrase in speaking
Clearly my definition is more British than American (as many Canadian things are), since stress on a word, syllable, or phrase is the last thing I think of when I think emphasis, and an idea being given special importance is the first thing. I see something that you've emphasized as something which you keep coming back to, reiterated over, or made into the subject of a great many things. By making an essay about a particular topic, I am emphasizing the importance of that topic to myself. Also, by voting New Democrat Party and not Wild Rose Party (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_political_parties_in_Alberta), I emphasize the importance of minimum wages and fair treatment of employees. By talking about reading people as town so much, and by voting, you are are emphasizing the importance of finding town members, and by voting Shakelon for being possibly a SK, you are emphasizing the importance of finding third parties. Neither of these emphasize the finding of scum.
I see you're going with the "process of elimination" defense. Which would work, if you were eliminating suspects more rapidly, and if you could say for sure any of your town reads were 100% accurate. Well, if you had an investigation, you could confirm some of these town reads, but it would still be very slow and not very useful as compared to investigating people who you suspect, or if you were scum you would know with 100% accuracy that your reads of "not mafia" were accurate, because you already know who's mafia. Given that so far you have only cleared 1 person for sure (meaning Doll), where as by lynch and by death 3 townies (including Doll) and 1 scum have already been revealed, I can conclude that you are not eliminating suspects fast enough. As for the second part, saying whether all your reads are accurate, only you know if that's true or not but I can guess it IS.
Quote from: Tiruin cont.
QuoteYes, you've clearly pointed out that neither Doll nor I are suspicious to you, which is some damn fine town-hunting. Town hunting, also known as buddying, is not useful to the town, we need scum hunting. So, for conciseness, let's go through aaaaallll your posts, and find if there are any places where you do any scum hunting.And this is the pointyness that is like sandpaper :v
"Buddying"
Jargon that is used in a personal context to mean something, requires its context within the game too, to mean more.
I'm not "BUDDYING" when I'm noting 'this person isn't within my suspicion list because of [these reasons]'; 'these people who aren't within those people are people I can be suspicious of' [followed by reasons].
Buddying is one of the commonly used terms I keep seeing being thrown about that it gives me the idea that it's moreso an emotional thing or a reactive tell. Something to give an impression rather than a context clue. You've WHOLLY missed in your post recap of me (but thanks, now I've a full post to link and quote everytime I would like a recap of my posts), that I have stated my suspicions on the scumteam being...methodical.
Yes, I am making a pointed case to go with my vote. I want to be sure that the person I'm lynching is scum and knows that I believe them to be.
Honestly, since this is mafia and I believe it was said that... wait, I have the quote here.
Everyone here is literally out to get you. You can't fully trust everyone.There should be nobody that you don't suspect. So please, do not try to pretend to me that you can hunt scum by finding people who are town. I have played with you before, and I know you are a better player than this.
As for buddying being an emotional buzz word: You're right, it can be. Buddying is used to refer to when someone puts someone else in a good light in order to make that person less suspicious of you (like you are doing to me and like someone accused me of doing to Persus), trying to make someone purposefully look good so that when you flip scum they look bad, joking around like buddies, or acting unnaturally friendly towards someone. You may be able to ride on your reputation of being the friendliest person on the site to avoid the latter two definitions, but you can't avoid the first. Your town read of me is strained, though it pains me to admit that. When you were saying that I and 4maskwolf can't both be mafia, the compliments you made on the points he made were definitely overdoing it, and the town read you had on doll was tenuous at best, purely based on how doll and I were fighting too much to be mafia.
Quote from: more Tiruin
Someone wiped out the replacement, helping the game, which is good. This is one impression I'm using in that one note of the scumteam; second is that given my LACK of mention towards others' being pointedly making a case, it's to give notice that the scumteam is moreso acting or relying on their abilities rather than a strong day play [riding the waves and all; there are MANY weak targets to go after here, and the lack of mention towards me that way too {like...the whole post I made on scumteam thinking, nothing was done about it. The post about TolyK's case on me being dropped somewhere alongside post-D1, nothing too}, tells me too that there's something moreso going during the night than the day]
OSG was mod-killed because there was no replacement. So nobody wiped out the replacement, because there wasn't one. Nobody except OSG has asked for or been replaced, either. I can't understand your jarberage (jargon-giberish-garbage barage) in the [square and {curly} braces], so could you please make this clearer. I think what you're saying is that the scum are not capitalizing on anything day-related by making good cases or defending themselves well, and using their night powers more? Well, that sounds like you to me, but that's confimation bias. I guess it could also apply to TBF, TDS, or Persus.
Quote from: Tiruin
And to note how you've added every single note to all my posts does help too. :3Yeah. I would specifically like a response to my comment on your 21st post:
It's pointedly in your language. How many times have you used the word 'fishing' there?Quoteall point to you being scum (because it is difficult to fake a case and you want people to suspect the people you've been town-reading when you flip).Why this is sandpaper-y like I mentioned, is because it's either you're going all out on me for trying to make a case as scum, or you're town and making your best point. Either way, in communication on both parties; all these information will be useful later on.
Although...I am concerned.
Why is 'town hunting', called 'buddying'?
Quote
Telling TolyK that his case is too overt?! WTF is this?! You're actively quashing scum hunting now?!I use buddying 8 times, fishing 3 times, and content (as in low-content) 4 times.
As for why I call "town hunting" "buddying", multiple reasons. First off, it's a bad idea regardless of what I call it. "scum benefit more from the fact that knowledge of who is generally perceived as town helps them aim their nightkill, and more townies have to be found to figure out the scum [if town hunting is the primary objective]" (https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Scumhunting). Basically, until LYLO, town-hunting is detrimental to the town. But you asked why I call it buddying. It's because you are trying to make these people look good, which when your alignment is revealed, will then reflect more strongly on those people. When you say they look town, and flip town, we'd be more likely to trust you, yes, but when you flip mafia we'd likely scrutinize those people looking for any scum tells. And if we lynch one of them because you said they looked town, and they turn out town, well, then your mission in town-reading them is accomplished. Which is exactly the same motivation behind traditional buddying.
And from my horribly organized notes; doll spent their shots at two people. Doll either died because of his abilities or because someone killed them back. THere's some kind of redaction to flips. We've 12 out of 15 alive [since Lenglon + Shakerag = together ♥], and there seemed to be a massblock on N1 but I couldn't go back and recheck (despite trawling through 20 pages since page 51 prior <_<) and note if anything like that was mentioned.I told you what happened. Doll died because I killed them, and doll's ability was self-redacting, because it's the one that gives them abilities post-mortem, the one I got a version of. It was called Withdrawal, and it turned them into (and will turn me into) a role called Caffeine Withdrawal on death. Obviously with no revive this time. They also probably did not use any abilities whatsoever because they lost complete and total interest in the game, although that is speculation on my behalf.
Post by: Tea on June 20, 2017, 04:40:06 am
~
DarkStar regarding FoU:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
I would describe DarkStar's tone regarding FoU as remarkably soft relative to how DarkStar describes most players. In the first quote there, the way he expressed his sentiment of FoU is...about the nicest way of saying it possible. Around the time of the second quote, DarkStar refers to several other players as at least "mildly scummy" but merely narrates FoU's posts as "Overall, there's... almost nothing of substance anywhere. His reads are nice to have but I really want to see more stuff from him." This is markedly different from how he talks about flabort in the same post (FoU is sorta sandwiched between two more passionate reads), and also from how DarkStar talks about Persus and 4mask around the same time.
FoU regarding DarkStar
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Fallacy has him in a neutral low activity pile and doesn't discuss him again. I think it's notable that this neutral lurker pile (1/3 are confirmed town) isn't something that he comes back to when he posts reads later. Compare this with Fallacy's later reads, particularly of Fish:
Fallacy's weird Fish progression:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Where Fish gets swapped from something of a weak townread/playing well enough, suddenly to one of two names that aren't playing well. I think this makes TBF less likely aligned with FoU. Furthermore FoU does not take this opportunity to shade any of his {OSG, DarkStar, Shakerag} pool in the people who aren't playing well question, which...makes me think it's likely he threw a buddy in the {kinda need to post more} pool and was likely more interested in following up in different directions (attempting to third party hunting/shade non-mafia).
I previously mildly townread DarkStar for seeming to not push an agenda with his stances on the game, but I don't think that's hard to fake with how uninvested he's appeared to be thus far. DarkStar voteparked TBF, asked for an extension, and then acquiesced through silence to a flabort lynch. On D2 he did some questioning surrounding one of his night abilities and then again disappeared, never actually discussing who to lynch.
I think TheDarkStar is one of the more likely partners for FallacyofUrist and would like to put his feet to the fire Today.
Post by: Tiruin on June 20, 2017, 04:54:01 am
So... I guess we weren't permitted to talk at night, but the GM left the thread unlocked. I'd get into speculation as to why, especially considering the way Wuba phrased "if you are not allowed to talk at night", but that would probably be an unhelpful conversation. I didn't see what Tiruin or Persus had said, because they had edited away their posts on Wuba's request when I looked - probably just "why is this thread unlocked at night", like I think I did.PFP
There's nice meat in this case towards me that's covered by nice bits in Flabort's own personal lens (and also helpful corrections, which positively adds to this, but makes me embarrassed) >_> but our responses were more 'Webadict does this in his games; don't mind it'.
But I'll cut to the chase later (alongside noting that, yeah, my notes were messy and I did forget that the modkill was a modkill <_>)
Quote
OSG was mod-killed because there was no replacement. So nobody wiped out the replacement, because there wasn't one. Nobody except OSG has asked for or been replaced, either. I can't understand your jarberage (jargon-giberish-garbage barage) in the [square and {curly} braces], so could you please make this clearer. I think what you're saying is that the scum are not capitalizing on anything day-related by making good cases or defending themselves well, and using their night powers more? Well, that sounds like you to me, but that's confimation bias. I guess it could also apply to TBF, TDS, or Persus.It's that what I notice, and now cross-referencing FoU (which I didn't suspect due to seeing him as doing what he does--but then noticing it only after his death that there were those significant indicators [that still didn't poke me because I didn't focus on him]), that SANS this current note on FoU, I had the impression since mid-D1 that the scumteam were being somewhat passive, or active in targeting weaker town folks. Nobody is addressing Jack A T or TolyK much--both being very strong players in their own right; nobody is casing out Lenglon/Shakerag, who are a two-birds-one-stone type. So what I'ms aying is what you wrote there.
Also you wrote it weirdly; 'the scum', but I'm putting that to semantics.
Lenglon-Shakerag Coalition: My actions have been failing since two nights ago (and maybe this is good as I'm being blocked by scum) :3
But woo, we've confirmed non-Mafiases.
Who can probably be SKs.
Who I've acted on on both nights. :v
Also, you two, have my extra vote. Cheering you on dudes.
RIP Pozzai. D:He was a good man u_u
Flabort: Tell me one thing; what did you do last night?
And, are you sure you will live through today?
I'm asking in purely general questions. Because I care about you.
And you're really hot.
Post by: Shakerag on June 20, 2017, 10:11:44 am
Oooooh kay then.We targeted everyone except you last night. So whatever you got didn't come from us. I'm assuming, based on your wording, that one of the abilities you gained is something referencing the mafiakill?
I gained three abilities in the night - since I had no targeted actions, these were all from targeting me.
I hope one of the people who targeted me can tell me who else targeted me. Because one of those people is scum, for sure.
Also, just for the sake of information sharing, we received no messages last night.
I'm speculating that Pozzai was protecting someone who had a kill aimed at them. Further speculating that the kill had some additional effect about hiding roleflips. Hmm.
hector13:
Do you have a killing ability?
Tiruin:
Lenglon-Shakerag Coalition: My actions have been failing since two nights ago (and maybe this is good as I'm being blocked by scum) :3So you've acted on someone both nights or were blocked? And who are the confirmed "non-Mafiases" but-can-probably-be-SKs? Like I said, we didn't get any messages last night about anything happening to us. (As an aside, now I know how Venom feels with this always using "we" instead of "I").
But woo, we've confirmed non-Mafiases.
Who can probably be SKs.
Who I've acted on on both nights. :v
Post by: Tiruin on June 20, 2017, 10:47:15 am
I acted on you...lenglon and you, both nights :v
Tiruin:Lenglon-Shakerag Coalition: My actions have been failing since two nights ago (and maybe this is good as I'm being blocked by scum) :3So you've acted on someone both nights or were blocked? And who are the confirmed "non-Mafiases" but-can-probably-be-SKs? Like I said, we didn't get any messages last night about anything happening to us. (As an aside, now I know how Venom feels with this always using "we" instead of "I").
But woo, we've confirmed non-Mafiases.
Who can probably be SKs.
Who I've acted on on both nights. :v
My actions have failed, both nights. :O
Other than me keeping an eye on Flabort.
Post by: TheDarkStar on June 20, 2017, 11:20:11 am
I acted on you...lenglon and you, both nights :v
Tiruin:Lenglon-Shakerag Coalition: My actions have been failing since two nights ago (and maybe this is good as I'm being blocked by scum) :3So you've acted on someone both nights or were blocked? And who are the confirmed "non-Mafiases" but-can-probably-be-SKs? Like I said, we didn't get any messages last night about anything happening to us. (As an aside, now I know how Venom feels with this always using "we" instead of "I").
But woo, we've confirmed non-Mafiases.
Who can probably be SKs.
Who I've acted on on both nights. :v
My actions have failed, both nights. :O
Other than me keeping an eye on Flabort.
Tiruin:
I watched Lenglon-Shakerag last night and you did not visit them. The only people who visited them were themselves. Explain, please.
Post by: TheDarkStar on June 20, 2017, 11:34:48 am
Post by: Tiruin on June 20, 2017, 11:38:56 am
EBWOP: I also watched flabort n1 and you didn't visit him either.:v
Did nobody read that I said my actions failed and I've been announcing such since D1?
PFP
Post by: webadict on June 20, 2017, 11:39:40 am
Post by: TheDarkStar on June 20, 2017, 11:44:40 am
EBWOP: I also watched flabort n1 and you didn't visit him either.:v
Did nobody read that I said my actions failed and I've been announcing such since D1?
PFP
Yes, but in your post you seemed to be implying that your actions failed due to Lenglon-Shakerag, not due to your own role. It seems like you're trying to push Lenglon-Shakerag as more suspicious than they are.
PPE: And I read through a few of your other posts. I'll unvote for now, since you said that you've been getting blocked. I need to reread your posts though, since I'm getting an odd/inconsistent vibe from you.
Post by: Tiruin on June 20, 2017, 12:00:15 pm
Uh...I've been explicit (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164260.msg7481339#msg7481339) of what I've been doing lately and that note on you targeting flabort out of nowhere makes me go ??? on why you'd mention that as any connection?EBWOP: I also watched flabort n1 and you didn't visit him either.:v
Did nobody read that I said my actions failed and I've been announcing such since D1?
PFP
Yes, but in your post you seemed to be implying that your actions failed due to Lenglon-Shakerag, not due to your own role. It seems like you're trying to push Lenglon-Shakerag as more suspicious than they are.
PPE: And I read through a few of your other posts. I'll unvote for now, since you said that you've been getting blocked. I need to reread your posts though, since I'm getting an odd/inconsistent vibe from you.
What's been going on and why'd you watch the folks you mentioned?
Why mention your N1 target? That seemed like a giddy-reactive vote.
I think TheDarkStar is one of the more likely partners for FallacyofUrist and would like to put his feet to the fire Today.I sincerely doubt that, now.
Post by: TheDarkStar on June 20, 2017, 12:45:42 pm
Uh...I've been explicit (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164260.msg7481339#msg7481339) of what I've been doing lately and that note on you targeting flabort out of nowhere makes me go ??? on why you'd mention that as any connection?EBWOP: I also watched flabort n1 and you didn't visit him either.:v
Did nobody read that I said my actions failed and I've been announcing such since D1?
PFP
Yes, but in your post you seemed to be implying that your actions failed due to Lenglon-Shakerag, not due to your own role. It seems like you're trying to push Lenglon-Shakerag as more suspicious than they are.
PPE: And I read through a few of your other posts. I'll unvote for now, since you said that you've been getting blocked. I need to reread your posts though, since I'm getting an odd/inconsistent vibe from you.
What's been going on and why'd you watch the folks you mentioned?
Why mention your N1 target? That seemed like a giddy-reactive vote.
I watched flabort n1 because of his connection to doll. I'd have watched doll but I wasn't sure if he was still playing and I didn't want to waste my action on someone would would be modkilled anyway (note: I mentioned that I watched flabort yesterday).
I watched Lenglon-Shakerag because they've made themselves a target. Basically, I'm watching to see if they get nightkilled.
And I mentioned my n1 target because you said in this post (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164260.msg7490355#msg7490355) that you succeeded in targeting flabort ("my actions have failed...other than me keeping an eye on flabort") on some indeterminate night/on both nights. Actually, I'm really confused on what you're trying to say there.
I think TheDarkStar is one of the more likely partners for FallacyofUrist and would like to put his feet to the fire Today.I sincerely doubt that, now.
...why?
Post by: Tiruin on June 20, 2017, 12:59:08 pm
Sorry, part of my post I was adding to got snipped, pasted, cut, and the tab died >_>I think TheDarkStar is one of the more likely partners for FallacyofUrist and would like to put his feet to the fire Today.I sincerely doubt that, now.
...why?
PFP due to bad net
But it was because of your sudden counter-reaction (plus me checking back, trying to skim, and noticing several additional notes that reinforce my views on Jack, TolyK (partially), Lenglag, and Persus)
And to clarify, the statement after the ellipsis was me more taking offline notes about Flabort <_< I'm REAL CONFLICTED about him being scum or town, but he's leaning town, very annoyingly erratically in that if he was scum, he'd be pushing all he's got.
Post by: Lenglon on June 20, 2017, 12:59:56 pm
Post by: TheDarkStar on June 20, 2017, 01:12:04 pm
Post by: Lenglon on June 20, 2017, 01:19:26 pm
4mask - Why did you redirect TDS?
Post by: hector13 on June 20, 2017, 01:23:14 pm
hector13:
Do you have a killing ability?
No.
I did have a super awesome revive auto, though.
I was hoping to see some bussing going on with FoU's lynch, but I don't think the people who were voting him would be aligned with him... 'cept maybe 4mask's attempt to vote him when he didn't have a vote to use.
Probably need to do a lot of reading, since I've been neglecting this game quite a bit.
Post by: Lenglon on June 20, 2017, 01:24:48 pm
Post by: Lenglon on June 20, 2017, 01:31:09 pm
Post by: 4maskwolf on June 20, 2017, 02:21:39 pm
4mask - Why did you redirect TDS?Because I was curious what Tiruin was up to, and lacking an investigative ability of my own I was obliged to borrow someone else's. I only have two actions I want to use right now and the other was a protect and I didn't fancy my odds of actually protecting the scum's target.
Why was I curious about Tiruin? A mix of gut feeling and difficulty reading her. A lot of the other players here I have an easier time with reading and establishing connection between, but it's been a long time since I played regularly with Tiruin (the last couple games don't really count) so I've lost my edge on reading her. Why didn't I have TDS watch, say, TBF? Because TBF, if mafia, is pretty easy to find out and lynch anyway, so it'd be a waste of a night action on something we already know.
It's also a good way to poke at TDS's alignment as well, insofar as how much information he reveals on the matter and in what manner he goes about it. I'm pretty convinced he's town at this point.
Sorry by the way, TDS, I won't hijack you again in the future now that I've gotten all the information I wanted out of it.
I was hoping to see some bussing going on with FoU's lynch, but I don't think the people who were voting him would be aligned with him... 'cept maybe 4mask's attempt to vote him when he didn't have a vote to use.Jeez, I'm sorry, okay? Mistakes happen, especially when the day has gone on for a while and you forgot about your loss of a vote.
Imma go back and read FoU's posts from the last couple days and see if I can't puzzle something out.
Post by: 4maskwolf on June 20, 2017, 02:22:41 pm
note - My vote is NOT pressure. that's a lynch vote. redirecting the information gathering role is a pure-scum move, through and through, helps town noway, nohow.Blah blah blah that's not true in the slightest, especially in a BYOR where role's are crazy.
Post by: TolyK on June 20, 2017, 03:27:38 pm
Everyone:
Alright, can we assemble who claims to have targeted who, and claimed + flipped powers? I'll go ahead and (re-)claim some things right now. (Below is not an actual quote, it's a summary + a bit of info.)
Quote from: TolyK
I have a Day ability to make a chat, which I used D1 to add Jack.
I used an ability N1 on Shakelon, which failed. I used an ability N2 on Tiruin, and I'm waiting for confirmation on what happened.
Jack has claimed a few things in our chat, which I'll let him decide on.
Likely (50%? :P), Pozzai ate a kill that was meant for someone else.
By seeing who targeted who, we'll get a better idea of trustworthiness.
Currently going to vote for Tiruin based on older suspicions, this might be retracted as I get info regarding N2.
Can you reiterate (approximately, at least) what changed your views on us 4 (5)?Sorry, part of my post I was adding to got snipped, pasted, cut, and the tab died >_>I think TheDarkStar is one of the more likely partners for FallacyofUrist and would like to put his feet to the fire Today.I sincerely doubt that, now.
...why?
PFP due to bad net
But it was because of your sudden counter-reaction (plus me checking back, trying to skim, and noticing several additional notes that reinforce my views on Jack, TolyK (partially), Lenglag, and Persus)
And to clarify, the statement after the ellipsis was me more taking offline notes about Flabort <_< I'm REAL CONFLICTED about him being scum or town, but he's leaning town, very annoyingly erratically in that if he was scum, he'd be pushing all he's got.
And about Flabort, again...
So, you have 2 night actions? Also, actions failing twice is incredibly convenient, just sayin'.I acted on you...lenglon and you, both nights :v
Tiruin:Lenglon-Shakerag Coalition: My actions have been failing since two nights ago (and maybe this is good as I'm being blocked by scum) :3So you've acted on someone both nights or were blocked? And who are the confirmed "non-Mafiases" but-can-probably-be-SKs? Like I said, we didn't get any messages last night about anything happening to us. (As an aside, now I know how Venom feels with this always using "we" instead of "I").
But woo, we've confirmed non-Mafiases.
Who can probably be SKs.
Who I've acted on on both nights. :v
My actions have failed, both nights. :O
Other than me keeping an eye on Flabort.
Post by: TolyK on June 20, 2017, 03:30:05 pm
So there was only 1 successful "kill" last night, it seems.
Post by: Persus13 on June 20, 2017, 03:33:47 pm
Tiruin:I acted on you...lenglon and you, both nights :vLenglon-Shakerag Coalition: My actions have been failing since two nights ago (and maybe this is good as I'm being blocked by scum) :3So you've acted on someone both nights or were blocked? And who are the confirmed "non-Mafiases" but-can-probably-be-SKs? Like I said, we didn't get any messages last night about anything happening to us. (As an aside, now I know how Venom feels with this always using "we" instead of "I").
But woo, we've confirmed non-Mafiases.
Who can probably be SKs.
Who I've acted on on both nights. :v
My actions have failed, both nights. :O
Other than me keeping an eye on Flabort.
[/quote]
So, you have 2 night actions? Also, actions failing twice is incredibly convenient, just sayin'.
[/quote]
Why are you asking if she has two night actions?
4mask: Since you're so willing to claim, what did you do N1?
Post by: Persus13 on June 20, 2017, 03:34:13 pm
Post by: TheDarkStar on June 20, 2017, 04:04:44 pm
Post by: flabort on June 20, 2017, 04:29:12 pm
Flabort: Tell me one thing; what did you do last night?I used my Spiders Everywhere 1-shot that I gained the night before, giving a web strand to everyone who already had a web strand. This was an untargeted ability.
And, are you sure you will live through today?
I'm asking in purely general questions. Because I care about you.
And you're really hot.
I am not sure I will live through today, just like how I was not sure I would live through last night or the day before.
WhyTF would you call me really hot after I accused you of being unnaturally nice towards me? Where are you even getting that idea?
flabort:Hmm. I was quite certain one of the abilities I got last night was from you. Yes, one of my abilities gained last night has the [mafiakill] tag. I asked Wuba for clarification, and the ability cannot be used by someone without access to the mafia kill, so except for telling me that I was visited by a mafioso and what sort of mafiakill they are capable of, it is almost useless to me.Oooooh kay then.We targeted everyone except you last night. So whatever you got didn't come from us. I'm assuming, based on your wording, that one of the abilities you gained is something referencing the mafiakill?
I gained three abilities in the night - since I had no targeted actions, these were all from targeting me.
I hope one of the people who targeted me can tell me who else targeted me. Because one of those people is scum, for sure.
Also, just for the sake of information sharing, we received no messages last night.
I'm speculating that Pozzai was protecting someone who had a kill aimed at them. Further speculating that the kill had some additional effect about hiding roleflips. Hmm.
Um, who else claimed vote stealing, with the ability to make it permanent, besides you? The vote stealing ability I got is NOT the Mafiakill, FYI.
Everyone:Sure, I'll repeat my claims, and add to them since my abilities are growing.
Alright, can we assemble who claims to have targeted who, and claimed + flipped powers? I'll go ahead and (re-)claim some things right now. (Below is not an actual quote, it's a summary + a bit of info.)Quote from: TolyKI have a Day ability to make a chat, which I used D1 to add Jack.
I used an ability N1 on Shakelon, which failed. I used an ability N2 on Tiruin, and I'm waiting for confirmation on what happened.
Jack has claimed a few things in our chat, which I'll let him decide on.
And about Flabort, again...So, you have 2 night actions? Also, actions failing twice is incredibly convenient, just sayin'.I acted on you...lenglon and you, both nights :v
Tiruin:Lenglon-Shakerag Coalition: My actions have been failing since two nights ago (and maybe this is good as I'm being blocked by scum) :3So you've acted on someone both nights or were blocked? And who are the confirmed "non-Mafiases" but-can-probably-be-SKs? Like I said, we didn't get any messages last night about anything happening to us. (As an aside, now I know how Venom feels with this always using "we" instead of "I").
But woo, we've confirmed non-Mafiases.
Who can probably be SKs.
Who I've acted on on both nights. :v
My actions have failed, both nights. :O
Other than me keeping an eye on Flabort.
Quote from: Original Role, lost on revive
Flabort’s High-Powered BYOR (Town)
Auto (Triggered on lynch day 1): Backup role: I could choose a rolename, and when I died I would revive as that role.
Night, target: Randomly Selected: Randomize the target.
night, target/self: high power: Give target a random 1-shot from a preset list (Protect, Inspect, Kill, Track, Watch, Karma, Bus, Redirect, Guard, Block)
1-shot: Infinite Actions: does not count towards one action per phase, on the phase used any actions used may be targeted at any number of players, though each player only once.
Quote from: The role I revived as
Peter Petrelli (town)
Auto: Heroes: Whenever targeted by someone or I target someone, gain a 1-shot version of a random ability of theirs. If I gain a power from all living players, I win.
1-shot, target (gained as part of the role, used N1): Eerie Arrival: Kill a player that aided in my death.
1-shot, Night (gained N1, used N2) Spiders Everywhere: all players with web strands gain an additional web strand.
1-shot, auto (gained N1): Withdrawal: Become caffeine withdrawal, granting additional abilities, after death. Ability is [REDACTED]
on death.
1-shot, Night, target (gained N2): Bigly: steal a vote from target. can destroy ability to make vote steal permanent, votes return if I die.
1-shot, mafiakill (gained N2): Monster Within: Convert target to your alignment, if successful you die and flip as their role + alignment, they gain this role.
auto (gained N2): Balance: Cannot use the same ability twice in a row.
If Tiruin indeed has had two actions and has been watching me this whole time, I believe that Spiders Everywhere and Monster Within both probably came from her, then. And how would she get two actions? FallacyofUrist's gamerules ability. Why did her actions "fail"? The targets revived or were protected, or else there's another auto ability in effect preventing her from body snatching someone.
Post by: Lenglon on June 20, 2017, 04:43:19 pm
Prove it.note - My vote is NOT pressure. that's a lynch vote. redirecting the information gathering role is a pure-scum move, through and through, helps town noway, nohow.Blah blah blah that's not true in the slightest, especially in a BYOR where role's are crazy.
Post by: Lenglon on June 20, 2017, 04:44:11 pm
Or at least make an argument to back it up. I see no way what you did wasn't scummy enough to make you prime lynch on the spot.Prove it.note - My vote is NOT pressure. that's a lynch vote. redirecting the information gathering role is a pure-scum move, through and through, helps town noway, nohow.Blah blah blah that's not true in the slightest, especially in a BYOR where role's are crazy.
Post by: 4maskwolf on June 20, 2017, 05:01:58 pm
How about you actually read the post I made right before that and respond to it rather than beating a dead horse?Or at least make an argument to back it up. I see no way what you did wasn't scummy enough to make you prime lynch on the spot.Prove it.note - My vote is NOT pressure. that's a lynch vote. redirecting the information gathering role is a pure-scum move, through and through, helps town noway, nohow.Blah blah blah that's not true in the slightest, especially in a BYOR where role's are crazy.
Post by: Lenglon on June 20, 2017, 05:18:05 pm
The one where you tried to excuse yourself redirecting the watcher to Tiruin because you didn't have an inspect of your own and were failing at your daygame?
Is that supposed to somehow be a valid explanation at all?
please explain the theorycraft behind redirecting a claimed watcher having even a chance in hell of not being a scum move.
please include how you redirecting the watcher is better than the watcher picking their own damn targets, especially since you might have died last night and (if you weren't scum) you'd have been unable to tell us where the watcher had been redirected, making their N2 watching action useless even if they had ended up watching either the scum or the scum's target.
Post by: TolyK on June 20, 2017, 05:25:37 pm
Post by: Shakerag on June 20, 2017, 05:28:11 pm
Hmm. I was quite certain one of the abilities I got last night was from you. Yes, one of my abilities gained last night has the [mafiakill] tag. I asked Wuba for clarification, and the ability cannot be used by someone without access to the mafia kill, so except for telling me that I was visited by a mafioso and what sort of mafiakill they are capable of, it is almost useless to me.Huh. Lemme ask webadict something. Either he goofed or something weird happened.
Um, who else claimed vote stealing, with the ability to make it permanent, besides you? The vote stealing ability I got is NOT the Mafiakill, FYI.
Post by: Shakerag on June 20, 2017, 05:30:48 pm
Just in case there are day ending early shenanigans.
Post by: flabort on June 20, 2017, 05:34:19 pm
Probably something weird happened. When I asked him about when the night was ending, he said my abilities were making it take especially long to finish up.Hmm. I was quite certain one of the abilities I got last night was from you. Yes, one of my abilities gained last night has the [mafiakill] tag. I asked Wuba for clarification, and the ability cannot be used by someone without access to the mafia kill, so except for telling me that I was visited by a mafioso and what sort of mafiakill they are capable of, it is almost useless to me.Huh. Lemme ask webadict something. Either he goofed or something weird happened.
Um, who else claimed vote stealing, with the ability to make it permanent, besides you? The vote stealing ability I got is NOT the Mafiakill, FYI.
Post by: TolyK on June 20, 2017, 05:37:47 pm
Sure, I'll repeat my claims, and add to them since my abilities are growing.Quote from: Original Role, lost on reviveFlabort’s High-Powered BYOR (Town)
Auto (Triggered on lynch day 1): Backup role: I could choose a rolename, and when I died I would revive as that role.
Night, target: Randomly Selected: Randomize the target.
night, target/self: high power: Give target a random 1-shot from a preset list (Protect, Inspect, Kill, Track, Watch, Karma, Bus, Redirect, Guard, Block)
1-shot: Infinite Actions: does not count towards one action per phase, on the phase used any actions used may be targeted at any number of players, though each player only once.Quote from: The role I revived asPeter Petrelli (town)
Auto: Heroes: Whenever targeted by someone or I target someone, gain a 1-shot version of a random ability of theirs. If I gain a power from all living players, I win.
1-shot, target (gained as part of the role, used N1): Eerie Arrival: Kill a player that aided in my death.
1-shot, Night (gained N1, used N2) Spiders Everywhere: all players with web strands gain an additional web strand.
1-shot, auto (gained N1): Withdrawal: Become caffeine withdrawal, granting additional abilities, after death. Ability is [REDACTED]
on death.
1-shot, Night, target (gained N2): Bigly: steal a vote from target. can destroy ability to make vote steal permanent, votes return if I die.
1-shot, mafiakill (gained N2): Monster Within: Convert target to your alignment, if successful you die and flip as their role + alignment, they gain this role.
auto (gained N2): Balance: Cannot use the same ability twice in a row.
If Tiruin indeed has had two actions and has been watching me this whole time, I believe that Spiders Everywhere and Monster Within both probably came from her, then. And how would she get two actions? FallacyofUrist's gamerules ability. Why did her actions "fail"? The targets revived or were protected, or else there's another auto ability in effect preventing her from body snatching someone.
Okay, assuming you're not lying (it doesn't seem to be the case), then I think it's possible to make everyone win as long as one person can get infinite (or at least 10) actions for a night. I want to see what others will claim, though, before spilling the beans. It has to do with cooperation between the mafia and the town, though. I'll symbolically vote for No Lynch.
PPE:
When I asked him about when the night was ending, he said my abilities were making it take especially long to finish up.Not the first time, either... :P
Post by: Lenglon on June 20, 2017, 05:44:12 pm
We specifically targeted everyone BUT flabort.
much confusion is had.
Post by: Lenglon on June 20, 2017, 06:30:24 pm
Post by: webadict on June 20, 2017, 07:20:11 pm
"How close are you to the end, I wonder?"
At the end is a smiley face. And it's signed... Web :|
You can almost hear his laughter.
Vote Count
------------------------
4maskwolf - Lenglon,
flabort -
hector13 -
Jack A T -
Lenglon-Shakerag - Shakerag,
Persus13 -
Tea -
TheBiggerFish -
TheDarkStar - Tea,
Tiruin - flabort, TheDarkStar,
TolyK -
No Lynch - TolyK,
Not Voting - hector13, Jack A T, Persus13, 4maskwolf, Tiruin, TheBiggerFish,
6 To Hammer. Day Ends on Thursday, June 22th around 8:00 PM CST. There is an Extension available.
Quote from: Current Rules
Survival - The Mafiakill does not count toward the 1 action per Phase limit.
Post by: Tiruin on June 21, 2017, 01:04:49 am
It's also a good way to poke at TDS's alignment as well, insofar as how much information he reveals on the matter and in what manner he goes about it. I'm pretty convinced he's town at this point.PFP and wifi at review center. This is my fiiiirst post by phone :D
Sorry by the way, TDS, I won't hijack you again in the future now that I've gotten all the information I wanted out of it.
That said, do I take it that you know TDS' power, and then redirected him on me? Meaning you know the extent of said power?
PFP because quoting is cheesy with trying to snip.
Post by: Tiruin on June 21, 2017, 01:12:23 am
Wow quoting on phone is butts. But I am both curious on why you denote Mafiakill in the first place, and that you're high in my sights of wondering if you're town or not. Id love to know why you're doing that when nobody else can prove it.Flabort: Tell me one thing; what did you do last night?I used my Spiders Everywhere 1-shot that I gained the night before, giving a web strand to everyone who already had a web strand. This was an untargeted ability.
And, are you sure you will live through today?
I'm asking in purely general questions. Because I care about you.
And you're really hot.
I am not sure I will live through today, just like how I was not sure I would live through last night or the day before.
WhyTF would you call me really hot after I accused you of being unnaturally nice towards me? Where are you even getting that idea?
Post by: Tiruin on June 21, 2017, 01:32:48 am
Quote from: TolyK and I'm on phone
Okay, assuming you're not lying (it doesn't seem to be the case), then I think it's possible to make everyone win as long as one person can get infinite (or at least 10) actions for a night. I want to see what others will claim, though, before spilling the beans. It has to do with cooperation between the mafia and the town, though. I'll symbolically vote for No LynchSymbolically, I'm having flashbacks to TolyK, the town poisoner. And now I'm REAL wary of you--moreso because when you do these plans, while well-meaning, would be better off in how you socially handle it x.x Like one, if you propose such a plan, massclaiming would help. Planning due to that too. That aside, I saw that other request on ne and have more to post. This will come later wgrn in not suffering on phone net.
Post by: Tea on June 21, 2017, 02:08:08 am
Post by: Jack A T on June 21, 2017, 03:53:25 am
Fallacy's Interactions
Dead scum means time to look back. First, at what Fallacy himself did:
Spoiler: Fallacy's Own Actions (click to show/hide)
That said, Fallacy was a major topic of discussion throughout the game. Most players took some sort of position on him at some point:
Spoiler: Positions on Fallacy (click to show/hide)
D1, though, there was a credible option far better for scum than a Fallacy lynch: a flabort lynch. With the amount of action interference going on, scum probably had a way to undermine doll's kills. Flabort's lynch, regardless of alignment, would be favourable for scum. Possible scum on the flabort wagon, but likely scum off wagon (pretty large margin for the wagon, not needing much scum help). D2 was messy and rather quieter on Fallacy, but the consensus held.
I'll want to look more closely at everyone, but at a few people in particular: 4maskwolf (on flabort D1, then weak Fallacy wagon reasons D2), Tiruin (completely non-positioned, but observing), TDS (stated suspicion of Fallacy D1, position disappeared D2), and Hector (on Fallacy D1, not quite on Fallacy D2). That, though, I'll save for later.
Tea: In your FoU activity analysis (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164260.msg7490141#msg7490141), you put the Fish progression posts out of chronological order, as if June progressed to May. What do the two posts indicate to you if put in the right order?
On TolyK: TolyK has been focused on an Everyone Wins strategy for a while now. Latched onto it a while back in the quicktopic, as soon as he saw certain relevant powers. I've been skeptical.
Post by: TolyK on June 21, 2017, 05:11:54 am
That said, we need to [Webadict: Extend] because ~24 hours is definitely not enough...
Tiruin:
Hehe. And you remember how that ended up, right? :PQuote from: TolyK and I'm on phoneOkay, assuming you're not lying (it doesn't seem to be the case), then I think it's possible to make everyone win as long as one person can get infinite (or at least 10) actions for a night. I want to see what others will claim, though, before spilling the beans. It has to do with cooperation between the mafia and the town, though. I'll symbolically vote for No LynchSymbolically, I'm having flashbacks to TolyK, the town poisoner. And now I'm REAL wary of you--moreso because when you do these plans, while well-meaning, would be better off in how you socially handle it x.x Like one, if you propose such a plan, massclaiming would help. Planning due to that too. That aside, I saw that other request on ne and have more to post. This will come later wgrn in not suffering on phone net.
That said, I am inclined to trust you ATM because you've been at least partially truthful.
Have you tried to figure out anyone's alignment yet?
Post by: Tiruin on June 21, 2017, 06:18:00 am
Hehe. And you remember how that ended up, right? :PI'm having an in-game headache lately. -_- And yes I do--but in context, it was from a TON OF TWISTY STUFF ON YOUR SIDE :I
That said, I am inclined to trust you ATM because you've been at least partially truthful.
Have you tried to figure out anyone's alignment yet?
And here--I still feel it's with a lot of twisty stuff on your side. But the benefit is I have some kind of foothold: Jack A T.
So EH. I:
And what about that thing you mentioned on N2?
I'm okay with a massclaim but awaiting Flabort or TDS or whatever.
Because someone is blocking me and that someone didn't claim outwards--guessing that someone is scum (or, y'know, my everything is failing and what is this :v).
I am OK with a massclaim.I didn't know we can extend?
That said, we need to [Webadict: Extend] because ~24 hours is definitely not enough...
Webadict: Extend
Post by: Tiruin on June 21, 2017, 06:22:30 am
Quote
I edited the '2 new replies' because this should've been before TolyK's post but noooo. :-\
Warning - while you were typing a new reply has been posted. You may wish to review your post.
Yooo hot diggity. I likeeeee how darkstar is all solvey with the night actions I just feel like he has made no connection to most htings being talked about during the daya ever., I wanna know why fourmask thohught having him watch tiruin was the best way to learn about tiruin. i did nothign last night btdubs.Me either, and 4mask just plugged my notes on people with his posts <_<
Also you okay Tea?
TolyK: I had a question to you back in Day 2 about what had happened to your everythingon me...
Unvote Tiruin.And this?
Quote from: AlsoTolyK
So, you have 2 night actions? Also, actions failing twice is incredibly convenient, just sayin'....So just sayin', what can you draw about me SAYING THAT IN PUBLIC!? :I
I mean I get you're being nudgingly nudgey, but this passive-whateverness of telling me how 'convenient' it is, is :I
Because if you want to infer me having a motive or whatever, do it with a nicely made case. Like Flabort, except with a lot less lens of prejudice and more compelling notes. Like how doll steamrolled flabort D1, but with a lot more respect (a bit more anyway, doll was respectful) and less needless bitterness.
Quote
Currently going to vote for Tiruin based on older suspicions, this might be retracted as I get info regarding N2.Wow. Not "D2", but N2.
Also 'on older suspicions' but you never communicated with me at all. Like ever. -_-
Like when I bolded your name at the end of D2 and it never got a response, ever.
Tiruin: You've claimed that you were blocked but (according to 4mask) I saw you act. At the very least, I'd like a full description of what you did last night.I protected Lenglag, and added 'maybe TolyK will act on them' because that boosts the whatever. Then I get a "You failed".
According to 4mask, "I saw you act"
Wat.
How 'according to someone else' MAKES YOU SEE SOMETHING when you're not in tandem or alignment with them unless you're scum!? (or...weird wording)
At the very least, that's all I did right there :v
Everyone:I've no idea what you did. :v
Alright, can we assemble who claims to have targeted who, and claimed + flipped powers? I'll go ahead and (re-)claim some things right now. (Below is not an actual quote, it's a summary + a bit of info.)Quote from: TolyKI have a Day ability to make a chat, which I used D1 to add Jack.
I used an ability N1 on Shakelon, which failed. I used an ability N2 on Tiruin, and I'm waiting for confirmation on what happened.
Jack has claimed a few things in our chat, which I'll let him decide on.
Because all I got is me failing.
Again.
You meanie :I I think.
Post by: Shakerag on June 21, 2017, 12:46:11 pm
webadict: Can you give a list of circumstances under which you would give a player a "you failed" sort of message from their night action (as opposed to giving no message at all in regards to their night action)?
Post by: Shakerag on June 21, 2017, 12:47:45 pm
Can anyone confirm a directly targeted night action actually landed on their target?
Post by: hector13 on June 21, 2017, 01:02:19 pm
flabort, could you explain how you receive powers from other players acting on you?
Post by: Jack A T on June 21, 2017, 01:06:19 pm
Can anyone confirm a directly targeted night action actually landed on their target?Shakerag: N1, both targets were hit as intended. N2, one definitely did not and the other is unknown.
Extend.
Post by: TheDarkStar on June 21, 2017, 01:24:23 pm
Also, can we guarantee that 4mask successfully redirected TDS to Tiruin? There seem to be a number of redirecting shenanigans going on, which makes me wonder if we have a (partial-)nexus...
Can anyone confirm a directly targeted night action actually landed on their target?
Once Tiruin claims her night action and target, we'll know who I targeted. Assuming that Tiruin doesn't end up claiming that she targeted someone else or that I targeted someone that also targeted Shakerag-Lenglon.
Post by: Shakerag on June 21, 2017, 01:33:40 pm
I took a look back through FoU's posts myself. I am inclined to say that, from that, TolyK is almost certainly not aligned with FoU.
1 - FoU was constantly on TolyK's ass, and it didn't feel like bussing
The only other thing of note I saw was FoU opposed the shorten on the flabort lynch. Unfortunately, as was noted by Jack A T, he didn't have a lot of substantial interactions. I don't have time right now to check on everyone else's interactions with FoU though.
Post by: Shakerag on June 21, 2017, 01:34:14 pm
Out of curiosity, what is your preferred alignment?
Post by: Lenglon on June 21, 2017, 01:42:14 pm
I protected Lenglag, and added 'maybe TolyK will act on them' because that boosts the whatever. Then I get a "You failed".also, she addresses you in that post and you haven't responded to her.
According to 4mask, "I saw you act"
Tir's, 4mask's, and TDS's claimed for action/interaction last night all check out from what I can see.
Tir attempted to protect us (action failed)
4mask redirected TDS to Tir
TDS watched us and himself.
TDS saw himself be target of us and 4mask.
TDS saw his target target us, and be the target of us.
all the above checks out internally. however:
Flabort has claimed to have been actioned by us, a mafia member, and someone else.
Flabort was specifically not targeted by us, yet his claim of ability granted by us checks out, meaning we were redirected to him from someone other than TDS and Tiruin.
Since not ALL of our actions were redirected, the redirect was not aimed at us, it was aimed at one of our targets - said target redirected actions that target them over to Flabort.
so we had at least two redirectors last night, one defensive and one aggressive. the defensive one is not TDS, not Tiruin, and probably not 4mask. the aggressive one definitively was 4mask.
I haven't decided what to think about this as a whole. the only concusion I've drawn so far is just that 4mask's redirecting TDS was super-scummy.
Post by: Lenglon on June 21, 2017, 01:45:15 pm
Post by: Shakerag on June 21, 2017, 01:48:09 pm
Okay, assuming you're not lying (it doesn't seem to be the case), then I think it's possible to make everyone win as long as one person can get infinite (or at least 10) actions for a night. I want to see what others will claim, though, before spilling the beans. It has to do with cooperation between the mafia and the town, though. I'll symbolically vote for No Lynch.We might be able to help out there. But, yeah, would need to hear what the plan is about.
Also, you never answered my question from the end of D2 - Do you get a benefit from more people using that ability you're tossing about?
Post by: Jack A T on June 21, 2017, 01:50:17 pm
Everyone: Last night, I gave beer cans out, targeting Persus13 and Lenglon/Shakerag. The latter has reported that no messages came in N2, indicating that they did not receive their beer can. Who received a beer can last night?
Post by: Lenglon on June 21, 2017, 01:57:26 pm
TolyK - I notice that you did not talk about handing out the ability you've been handing out each day today. have you reached your limit or something along those lines?
Post by: TolyK on June 21, 2017, 02:12:57 pm
Tolyk:I don't get any benefit. I was showing it so that you had better reason to trust me.Okay, assuming you're not lying (it doesn't seem to be the case), then I think it's possible to make everyone win as long as one person can get infinite (or at least 10) actions for a night. I want to see what others will claim, though, before spilling the beans. It has to do with cooperation between the mafia and the town, though. I'll symbolically vote for No Lynch.We might be able to help out there. But, yeah, would need to hear what the plan is about.
Also, you never answered my question from the end of D2 - Do you get a benefit from more people using that ability you're tossing about?
TolyK - I notice that you did not talk about handing out the ability you've been handing out each day today. have you reached your limit or something along those lines?No, I haven't reached any limit. I've no reason to give it out, though. Have you guys decided on joining or not? :p
If I'm not forgetting anything, you still can join. I'm not against it, and (unless it's recently changed) neither is Jack. I've laid most of a "plan" in my conversation with Jack. However, it's fairly shaky, so I'm trying to figure out something that's more robust before I announce the details publicly.
Can anyone confirm a directly targeted night action actually landed on their target?I'm almost certain I actioned the right target (Tiruin) N2.
Post by: flabort on June 21, 2017, 04:09:43 pm
Flabort: could you speculate on why the mafia would have actioned you last night? I'm trying to guess if you were the intended target or if the defensive redirector was the target of the mafia action. I notice you aren't dead so whatever action it was wasn't the mafiakill.Possibilities I can think of, without assuming that the mafioso is Tiruin, are role investigations, attempted vote steals, watching to see who I action, a redirect, or dousing.
Adding in the idea that the mafioso might be Tiruin, I might surmise that in addition to the other ideas, it's possibly a protection action against third party or vigilante kills, watching to see who actions me, or an attempt to duplicate my action.
Given Tiruin's claim of watching me, I am inclined to think that they were telling the truth and watching me, though.
extend, I'm finding great difficulty finding time to read and post right now.See: My claim. Specifically, the Auto power "Heroes". Quoted here for your convenience.
flabort, could you explain how you receive powers from other players acting on you?
Quote from: Original Role, lost on reviveFlabort’s High-Powered BYOR (Town)
Auto (Triggered on lynch day 1): Backup role: I could choose a rolename, and when I died I would revive as that role.
Night, target: Randomly Selected: Randomize the target.
night, target/self: high power: Give target a random 1-shot from a preset list (Protect, Inspect, Kill, Track, Watch, Karma, Bus, Redirect, Guard, Block)
1-shot: Infinite Actions: does not count towards one action per phase, on the phase used any actions used may be targeted at any number of players, though each player only once.Quote from: The role I revived asPeter Petrelli (town)
Auto: Heroes: Whenever targeted by someone or I target someone, gain a 1-shot version of a random ability of theirs. If I gain a power from all living players, I win.
1-shot, target (gained as part of the role, used N1): Eerie Arrival: Kill a player that aided in my death.
1-shot, Night (gained N1, used N2) Spiders Everywhere: all players with web strands gain an additional web strand.
1-shot, auto (gained N1): Withdrawal: Become caffeine withdrawal, granting additional abilities, after death. Ability is [REDACTED]
on death.
1-shot, Night, target (gained N2): Bigly: steal a vote from target. can destroy ability to make vote steal permanent, votes return if I die.
1-shot, mafiakill (gained N2): Monster Within: Convert target to your alignment, if successful you die and flip as their role + alignment, they gain this role.
auto (gained N2): Balance: Cannot use the same ability twice in a row.
Post by: webadict on June 21, 2017, 09:46:56 pm
Post by: Shakerag on June 21, 2017, 11:54:12 pm
I support the mass claim and also the Extend. I especially want to see Tiruin, Hector13, and TolyK's claims right now, but seeing Jack AT's and TDS+TBF's claims is also very important.I would normally be all for a massclaim by this point, but I have some reservations.
So, I think I'm comfortable enough with enough game time passing to basically say that my role (at least to my perception) is pretty obviously geared up to be a LYLO breaker. And now, after having Lenglon merged with me, I would appear to be able to 100% win a 1v1 or 1v2 scum situation and have fairly good odds in a 1v3 scum situation.
So I'm understandably (I hope) a little leery of giving away too many details of my abilities/defenses.
Post by: Tea on June 22, 2017, 12:37:04 am
Tea: In your FoU activity analysis (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164260.msg7490141#msg7490141), you put the Fish progression posts out of chronological order, as if June progressed to May. What do the two posts indicate to you if put in the right order?
Ohhhhh. I think I got mixed up from having too many tabs open and thought that the May post was from FoU's string of June 5th posts, which...were actually only about Toly.
Unvote
I think it makes FoU's forgotten null lurker bloc less likely to be meaningful. My impression is that FoU thought Toly was quite possibly 3rd party, and didn't really care if it was a mislynch, and so decided to hyperfocus that and not spew any other interactions.
It's actually still weird that FoU had a change in read/activity about TBF considering I don't think TBF's post quality changed much over the course of the day, which I had previously been interpreting as opportunism since consensus was going against TBF (when I had the posts in the wrong order.) I think it makes TBF a more likely partner for FoU particularly because wagons at the time besides FoU were {me, TBF, and technically Lengrag bc they were self-voting}, and he put all of us in kinda-scumhunting tier.
I agree with most of your analysis in the post this quote is from BTW.
vote TheBiggerFish
-
Tea:Town. I tend to have an easier time reading people who are the same way.
Out of curiosity, what is your preferred alignment?
Post by: flabort on June 22, 2017, 01:08:20 am
Post by: Tiruin on June 22, 2017, 08:44:06 am
Hey guys. I'm away from my computer, so I won't be able to update today. I'll update tomorrow though.So um, since there's no official notice on the extension--CAN ANYONE mention if we CAN extend?
I don't want to be rushing through tomorrow [my Friday >_> GMT +8] to just know that the day ends in the inconvenient timezones I've got. Since I've got busyness from 8am to 5pm.
I support the mass claim and also the Extend. I especially want to see Tiruin, Hector13, and TolyK's claims right now, but seeing Jack AT's and TDS+TBF's claims is also very important.Oooo, hello scumbag.Flabort: could you speculate on why the mafia would have actioned you last night? I'm trying to guess if you were the intended target or if the defensive redirector was the target of the mafia action. I notice you aren't dead so whatever action it was wasn't the mafiakill.Possibilities I can think of, without assuming that the mafioso is Tiruin, are role investigations, attempted vote steals, watching to see who I action, a redirect, or dousing.
Adding in the idea that the mafioso might be Tiruin, I might surmise that in addition to the other ideas, it's possibly a protection action against third party or vigilante kills, watching to see who actions me, or an attempt to duplicate my action.
Given Tiruin's claim of watching me, I am inclined to think that they were telling the truth and watching me, though.
So you have SOMEONE ELSE who knows one ability of mine and tacked it onto yours :3
You say that you get one-shots from people WHO TARGETED YOU.
I'll highlight something very imprecise--but convenient for me since I don't have to spend something valuable on you now.
Which I would've done to prove both of us town if you are town but eh >_>
extend, I'm finding great difficulty finding time to read and post right now.See: My claim. Specifically, the Auto power "Heroes". Quoted here for your convenience.
flabort, could you explain how you receive powers from other players acting on you?
The orange is exactly my Auto.Quote from: Original Role, lost on reviveFlabort’s High-Powered BYOR (Town)
Auto (Triggered on lynch day 1): Backup role: I could choose a rolename, and when I died I would revive as that role.
Night, target: Randomly Selected: Randomize the target.
night, target/self: high power: Give target a random 1-shot from a preset list (Protect, Inspect, Kill, Track, Watch, Karma, Bus, Redirect, Guard, Block)
1-shot: Infinite Actions: does not count towards one action per phase, on the phase used any actions used may be targeted at any number of players, though each player only once.Quote from: The role I revived asPeter Petrelli (town)
Auto: Heroes: Whenever targeted by someone or I target someone, gain a 1-shot version of a random ability of theirs. If I gain a power from all living players, I win.
1-shot, target (gained as part of the role, used N1): Eerie Arrival: Kill a player that aided in my death.
1-shot, Night (gained N1, used N2) Spiders Everywhere: all players with web strands gain an additional web strand.
1-shot, auto (gained N1): Withdrawal: Become caffeine withdrawal, granting additional abilities, after death. Ability is [REDACTED]
on death.
1-shot, Night, target (gained N2): Bigly: steal a vote from target. can destroy ability to make vote steal permanent, votes return if I die.
1-shot, mafiakill (gained N2): Monster Within: Convert target to your alignment, if successful you die and flip as their role + alignment, they gain this role.
auto (gained N2): Balance: Cannot use the same ability twice in a row.
I have NEVER targeted Flabort. I have ALWAYS targeted Lenglag.
This makes sense if I have webs--I have NO INDICATION whatsoever of gaining whatever that thing is. And it seems either you were acted upon OR you have targeted 3 people who has webs. Somehow, (this being the only reasonable bit I can add onto), I was one of them. The other two, however, are unknown.
Ninjedit: Ok I re-read and this strengthens my leanings and notes that Flabort isn't damn Mafia instead. Woo.
So I'll just drop what notes I've got <_< Written in Tiru-crazy [I was PMing Webadict because he's both impartial, and doesn't comment on my blabbering whatsoever so that's why my tense is like that here]
{Yes I'm talking to myself as if someone is listening but this is Webadict and he doesn't bias}
Send at the time of this post (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164260.msg7490403#msg7490403) (because it's lonely and I like PMing webadict -_- also I did that because there's no way to notepad whatever when you connect on public internet in other places that don't accept USBs so yeah)
Quote
Sure-Town reads/To-Be-Booped later:
Jack A T - Pattern/Behavioral analysis. And/or epic bus on the OverUrist. For two consecutive days. Same applies to Persoos. But being killed does set off townmarks. Alongside notes of pattern searching and explicit wording in their votes D1.
Persus13 - Killed and Revived Night 1 - Pattern analysis/gray. Uncertain. Going to ask for massclaim because something is up within pattern searching protocol.
hector13 - Died and Revived Night 2 - Behavioral/pattern analysis. He's with Lenglag due to how he behaved to them.
Lenglon-Shakerag - Created Day 1 - Totally my best friend/s ♥ ♥ if scum I'ma kill y'all. But their behavior points towards non-maffy. Most likely third-party/benevolent town-ally or whatever. Either way I love them and I'm going to cry if they're mafia.
Townish:
TolyK - FoU voted him? But sparing gray.
Tea - Behavioral/Interactional analysis
Ugh:
flabort - Lynched and Revived Day 1 <- Bloody town. Interaction basis; pattern analysis. Lacking pattern analysis present but FoU's interactions with him give credit. If he's scum, give me something sour to eat.
Leftovers?:
4maskwolf - Uh :'(
TheBiggerFish - Really sporadic; bet he's scum, as he's not giving those fishy town vibes in his brevity
TheDarkStar - Probably not Mafia given his D2 vote. Before this, was suspect due to his dayplay. Suspect inasmuch as TBF isn't being proactively pointy. Must re-read but his D2 reaction is notable.
Tiruin - Hi
This can't be that possible.
Someone must be going undercover <_< OR there are third-parties that are malevolent to town or otherwise because of ALL THIS somewhat-active passive dayplay.
Yes active/passive. In that order. Respectively. Important.
At the lack of private-public notes I'm sending this because ARGH this.
If it fails I'ma be so grump. :I
FLABORT: Since I find your posts LACKING and not connecting the dots you mentioned up there before, I'll do it here (because either you did it before and I'm grumpy, so I missed it, or you didn't do it before and I'm grumpy, so I missed it.)
[Seriously you have to copy paste the (town) bit?]
Quote from: Flaborty
Peter Petrelli (town)[/quote]
Auto: Heroes: Whenever targeted by someone or I target someone, gain a 1-shot version of a random ability of theirs. If I gain a power from all living players, I win.
1-shot, target (gained as part of the role, used N1): Eerie Arrival: Kill a player that aided in my death.
"Kill a player that aided in my death; "used N1" (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164260.msg7480773#msg7480773)
1-shot, Night (gained N1, used N2) Spiders Everywhere: all players with web strands gain an additional web strand.
"All players with web strands; yet the only abilities I've gained are THREE ABILITIES. Tiruin says she has no idea about it (just as TOLYK's mention of sending her something on N2 wasn't even. TOLYK doesn't even respond to her. Tiruin's words)" (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164260.msg7489884#msg7489884)
1-shot, auto (gained N1): Withdrawal: Become caffeine withdrawal, granting additional abilities, after death. Ability is [REDACTED]
on death.
1-shot, Night, target (gained N2): Bigly: steal a vote from target. can destroy ability to make vote steal permanent, votes return if I die.
This is unknown.
1-shot, mafiakill (gained N2): Monster Within: Convert target to your alignment, if successful you die and flip as their role + alignment, they gain this role. This is unknown and whoever is webbing people will benefit a ton if they claim whoever they targeted.
auto (gained N2): Balance: Cannot use the same ability twice in a row.
SOmehow I HAVE WEBS AND WHY DID SOMEONE SEND IN A WEBSPINNER SPIDER ROLE!? Why not a jumping spider!? They're cooler, calculative, and eccentrically eyesight-awesome! D:<
*AHEM*
I believe Flabort 'killed' doll by that one power used N1.
That means Persus was targeted by either the scumkill or Pozzai was--however this 'abduct kill' seems to be consistent in D2.
However in D2, the abductkill wasn't seen, hence it must have been a one-shot or additional modifier.
Hence I will infer that Persus and Hector; both players with a consistent and a rather relative/flexible behavioral play, have been targets of the scumkill.
But what the heck is up with those revives!? I will infer that this is in danger of being a high-powered game in which a multikiller exists. I can infer within reason that either Persus or Hector may be non-town, but AT LEAST THREE PLAYERS having bloody revives [hmph I don't have any :I] does denote something bigger.
Post by: Tiruin on June 22, 2017, 08:48:37 am
Quote
« Last Edit: Today at 08:47:53 am by Tiruin »I broke quote tags <_< And then edited it and then it still had broken tags.
And I won't edit that again just to remove-remove it again because of validity :I
HMPH slow internet.
Post by: Tiruin on June 22, 2017, 08:51:09 am
With the strange same exact wording as the auto I have.
Hence my needle-tip precarious suspicion on your face.
You cannot have gained an auto when your bloody auto explicitly says 'one shot'.
Post by: webadict on June 22, 2017, 10:28:40 am
Stop editting!Quote« Last Edit: Today at 08:47:53 am by Tiruin »I broke quote tags <_< And then edited it and then it still had broken tags.
And I won't edit that again just to remove-remove it again because of validity :I
HMPH slow internet.
But yes, you will get an extension.
Post by: Jack A T on June 22, 2017, 04:10:55 pm
Webadict: A few questions:
*If a player had a power that acts as flabort describes Heroes, and that player was hit by multiple counts of the same multi-target power at the same time (by redirect?), how many powers would they get?
*If a player had a power that acts as flabort describes Heroes and used a power that acts as flabort describes Spiders Everywhere, would they gain powers through the use of the latter? Spiders Everywhere is not a targeted power as described, so I would think not.
Post by: Jack A T on June 22, 2017, 04:12:13 pm
Post by: Persus13 on June 22, 2017, 04:13:42 pm
I'll try to post tonight, if I don't forget again.
Jack, I did get a beer can from you.
Post by: flabort on June 22, 2017, 04:17:58 pm
Also, Flabort, if you have gotten that 'auto' from me, I do believe you have also known either something more valuable, or instead of a one-shot, you got an auto :vWebadict told me that he could not have made that ability into a one shot.
With the strange same exact wording as the auto I have.
Hence my needle-tip precarious suspicion on your face.
You cannot have gained an auto when your bloody auto explicitly says 'one shot'.
Webadict Are you sure you didn't make any mistakes?
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
So what you're saying is that you weren't watching me as you claimed earlier (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164260.msg7490355#msg7490355)? That is very inconsistent of you.
Quote from: Tiruin
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Interesting that you would claim that the auto belongs to you. This does seem consistent with your claimed trait that knowing someone's rolename powers up your abilities, so now I'm beginning to question my suspicions of you. Well, not just now, but you get the idea, this is just the first thing that really jumps out as me as conflicting with my read.
Quote from: Tiruin
Is "This can't be that possible" a typo? or a translation error?Spoiler (click to show/hide)
I believe so many players having revives is part of a defense vs Monster Within, possibly, or against other special kills.
PPE:
3 posts. I definitely want to see Wuba's answers to Jack's questions, even though I know the answer to the third one.
Post one of two I am writing up right now, if this is posted than I missed the preview button.
Post by: Shakerag on June 22, 2017, 04:34:42 pm
D1 lynch - flabort was the lynch vote. Voting him were:
doll - flipped town
4maskwolf
Lenglon - is town
Pozzai - flipped town
Tea
Statistically speaking, I would think one of 4maskwolf or Tea would be scum. Of course, this assumes a lack of extreme shenanigans (which, to be frank, are at least possible in a BYOR) along the lines of Lenglon having a hidden extra alignment, Pozzai/doll flipping as a false alignment, etc.
Voting FallacyOfUrist at the end of D1 were:
hector13 - only death on N2, revived
Persus13 - one of three deaths on N1, revived
Jack A T - shares a chat with TolyK
I would be inclined to think that scum wouldn't be trying to bus that hard on D1, so that's points against these three for being scum. Also, with hector13 and Persus13 catching unclaimed kill attempts (as far as I remember), it would seem slightly further unlikely that they are scum (granted there could be redirects/reflections/etc., hence "slightly").
On D2, the lynch on FallacyOfUrist was:
Jack A T - ended D1 and D2 voting for FoU
Persus13
Lengrag x 3
Also noting FoU was voting for TolyK at the end of D1 and D2.
So, just looking at statistics and voting patterns:
4maskwolf - Possibly scum by statistics. Did also do that redirect thing against Tiruin.
flabort - Likely non-scum. Hard to picture as scum getting bussed D1. Also fairly open on sharing role information.
hector13 - Likely non-scum. Didn't vote on D2 though.
Jack A T - Possibly non-scum. Consistency on FoU works in his favor.
Lenglon-Shakerag - Hi there.
Persus13 - Likely non-scum, but just under hector13 due to being one of multiple deaths.
Tea - Possibly scum by statistics. Didn't have a vote on D2, but would have voted for FoU.
TheBiggerFish - Total wildcard. No vote on D1, voted hector13 on D2.
TheDarkStar - Voted TBF on D1, and no vote on D2. Also a wildcard.
Tiruin - Voted TBF on D1 and us on D2. Typically hard for me to read, but gut is leaning scum.
TolyK - No vote on D1, flabort on D2. Proposing everyone wins scenario. Leaning town.
Post by: webadict on June 22, 2017, 05:00:43 pm
Quick post while I muddle my way through too many posts: clarification questions.Please rephrase the question or provide the relevant quotes, so that I don't answer this question improperly.
Webadict: A few questions:
*If a player had a power that acts as flabort describes Heroes, and that player was hit by multiple counts of the same multi-target power at the same time (by redirect?), how many powers would they get?
*If a player had a power that acts as flabort describes Heroes and used a power that acts as flabort describes Spiders Everywhere, would they gain powers through the use of the latter? Spiders Everywhere is not a targeted power as described, so I would think not.
Webadict Are you sure you didn't make any mistakes?Not this time.
Post by: Jack A T on June 22, 2017, 05:16:46 pm
Quote from: The role I revived asPeter Petrelli (town)
Auto: Heroes: Whenever targeted by someone or I target someone, gain a 1-shot version of a random ability of theirs. If I gain a power from all living players, I win.
<snip>
1-shot, Night (gained N1, used N2) Spiders Everywhere: all players with web strands gain an additional web strand.
Webadict: See above.
Post by: flabort on June 22, 2017, 06:31:33 pm
Thought I'd comment on some things that have been posting since then.
Statistically speaking, I would think one of 4maskwolf or Tea would be scum. Of course, this assumes a lack of extreme shenanigans (which, to be frank, are at least possible in a BYOR) along the lines of Lenglon having a hidden extra alignment, Pozzai/doll flipping as a false alignment, etc.I have to agree with this, but for different reasons. I'm pretty much leaning the same ways, as you will see in my next big post.
I would be inclined to think that scum wouldn't be trying to bus that hard on D1, so that's points against these three for being scum. Also, with hector13 and Persus13 catching unclaimed kill attempts (as far as I remember), it would seem slightly further unlikely that they are scum (granted there could be redirects/reflections/etc., hence "slightly").
So, just looking at statistics and voting patterns:
4maskwolf - Possibly scum by statistics. Did also do that redirect thing against Tiruin.
flabort - Likely non-scum. Hard to picture as scum getting bussed D1. Also fairly open on sharing role information.
hector13 - Likely non-scum. Didn't vote on D2 though.
Jack A T - Possibly non-scum. Consistency on FoU works in his favor.
Lenglon-Shakerag - Hi there.
Persus13 - Likely non-scum, but just under hector13 due to being one of multiple deaths.
Tea - Possibly scum by statistics. Didn't have a vote on D2, but would have voted for FoU.
TheBiggerFish - Total wildcard. No vote on D1, voted hector13 on D2.
TheDarkStar - Voted TBF on D1, and no vote on D2. Also a wildcard.
Tiruin - Voted TBF on D1 and us on D2. Typically hard for me to read, but gut is leaning scum.
TolyK - No vote on D1, flabort on D2. Proposing everyone wins scenario. Leaning town.
Explain. *distressed dalek noises* Do you mean, you're not sure this time, or you didn't make any mistakes this time?Webadict Are you sure you didn't make any mistakes?Not this time.
Post by: webadict on June 22, 2017, 06:54:23 pm
Oh, by the way, my update will be a little late, I'm packing some suitcases.
Seriously though, Day extended to Monday. I will have a vote count up around 9.
Post by: Tiruin on June 22, 2017, 07:07:55 pm
@Flabort I do believe I clarified (ie In a post to Tea way back) that, NO, I did not act on you N2, and next, me saying The words that came off.to you as 'ima watch Flabort' was more "this dude in my sights" rather.than blatantly announcing my.night action :P ..i mean, its like you took THAT seriously rather.than my context that you were good at listimg (but in your perspective lens >_>) of all my prior posts. Its that I track high priority peiple and ive been "watching" your behavior intently due to my notes pointing toqards high-powered play (since D2), and a subtle/covert dayplay.
Also 'gut is leaning scum' ...wow :v i mean you wouldnt notice your own prejudice EVER since you tried.making a "case" on me what with all the leading emotional words and idead framing my actions.in a certain intent. Thats very clear V:
And yes im on phone. All these buttons are so small.D:< but i make bigger.posts just to show (and hug Lenglon) that details-by-phone is possible.
@Flabort: whaddya mean by i'nconvenient.of you'? ||| also tht 'this cant be possible' was written as an "as-if" speaking with someone (that being webby in PMs) but its more.my.internal.monologue. I do that.
Post by: hector13 on June 22, 2017, 07:08:07 pm
In the mean time, I'd like 4mask to walk is through their thought processes on redirecting an investigative ability, specifically their thoughts on how it would help the town, if they considered any drawbacks of doing this, and how all this influenced the final decision to do it.
Post by: Tiruin on June 22, 2017, 07:10:41 pm
Inasfar as my duspicions are concerned, 4mask stands out. But I'm still awaiting TDS' response.as a secondary suspicion and redvote.
Post by: Jack A T on June 22, 2017, 07:12:34 pm
I have a town read on Tiruin. Troubled by her minimal positions days 1 and 2, but I have a town read anyway.
Spoiler: Material on Tiruin (click to show/hide)
4maskwolf: I'm finding your behaviour odd, particularly with regards to voting. I have a few questions:
*When did you begin to suspect FallacyofUrist?
*Was there anything to your suspicion beyond NYAHNYAHNYAH?
*During D2, your only comment on flabort was a rejection of his viewpoints question (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164260.msg7483279#msg7483279). You felt pretty strongly about flabort D1, but dropped the case D2. Why? What is your current read of flabort?
TheDarkStar: Have some stuff written out on you on my end, but first I need answers to a few questions. You went through D2 suspecting Fallacy, but not voting for him (or anyone). Why? In addition, what led you to drop the TBF case?
Finally, to be absolutely clear, your action claim is that you are a watcher who watched ??? last night and flabort the night before, seeing who visited them?
Please answer my questions for once.
Post by: Lenglon on June 22, 2017, 07:13:55 pm
N1 you protected me, is that correct?
N2 you again protected me, is this correct?
Post by: flabort on June 22, 2017, 07:53:52 pm
Spoiler: 4maskwolf (click to show/hide)
Breadcrumbing sounds suspiciously like the Mafiakill ability I gained, but they claim to have targeted TDS the night that I gained that ability, backed up/prompted by Lenglon's question to them.
I definitely want to see more out of them, and fast, ESPECIALLY their claim.Unvote Tiruin, Vote 4maskwolf
Spoiler: hector13 (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Jack AT (click to show/hide)
Either town or very effective scum. Probably town.
Oh god I don't want to do more.
I was also going to cover Persus, TBF, TDS, and Tea in this post, but I think I've done enough for now. My head hurts and I am getting tired and I have chores to do soon. I really need to clean the kitchen, badly.
PPE:
No mistakes. Come on, if I made a mistake, I'd say it, then I'd never update the game again and flee the country.Like when you forgot you had modkilled OSG? *cough*
Oh, by the way, my update will be a little late, I'm packing some suitcases.
Seriously though, Day extended to Monday. I will have a vote count up around 9.
PFP (because woooo wifi at review center \o/ [and yet it doesn't show that fancy phone logo in my posts -_-)Oh relax. It's clear you've had a stressful day today, plus the phone isn't helping right now, so have a relaxing bath and come back and rethink that. Like I just said in the previous post, I'm questioning myself right now and I know I was probably a bit too hard on you. Especially with new evidence that has come to light when I reread the thread.
@Flabort I do believe I clarified (ie In a post to Tea way back) that, NO, I did not act on you N2, and next, me saying The words that came off.to you as 'ima watch Flabort' was more "this dude in my sights" rather.than blatantly announcing my.night action :P ..i mean, its like you took THAT seriously rather.than my context that you were good at listimg (but in your perspective lens >_>) of all my prior posts. Its that I track high priority peiple and ive been "watching" your behavior intently due to my notes pointing toqards high-powered play (since D2), and a subtle/covert dayplay.
Also 'gut is leaning scum' ...wow :v i mean you wouldnt notice your own prejudice EVER since you tried.making a "case" on me what with all the leading emotional words and idead framing my actions.in a certain intent. Thats very clear V:
And yes im on phone. All these buttons are so small.D:< but i make bigger.posts just to show (and hug Lenglon) that details-by-phone is possible.
@Flabort: whaddya mean by i'nconvenient.of you'? ||| also tht 'this cant be possible' was written as an "as-if" speaking with someone (that being webby in PMs) but its more.my.internal.monologue. I do that.
PPE wow phone view isn't friendly :v I mistook Sgaketag as Flabort. Because virwing in reply.mode isn't shpwing specific nnes (my 2nd paragraph there).Er... well. I'd like to know why you suspect them, but since I too came to that conclusion independently, I... lost my train of thought, sorry. I had a reply in mind, but I lost it.
Inasfar as my duspicions are concerned, 4mask stands out. But I'm still awaiting TDS' response.as a secondary suspicion and redvote.
Post by: Tiruin on June 22, 2017, 09:37:00 pm
N1: I Investigated Lenglag (I spoofd my 'passive investigate' for attraction)
N2: I protected Lenglag.
Both failed. V: but.that does.mean I got somrones attention. I did both because of yhe "doublr-target" principle, and "when you pair a millerSK with a conjoiner, you want to make sure, or at least they're non-Mafia'.
So yeah.
@Jack: Its that through D1/2 I was acting covert in Day (not.that outstanding worksmanship), as I was acting on my role arsenal.
PFP more later. Break done
Can't wifi
Post by: webadict on June 22, 2017, 09:38:51 pm
Quote from: The role I revived asPeter Petrelli (town)
Auto: Heroes: Whenever targeted by someone or I target someone, gain a 1-shot version of a random ability of theirs. If I gain a power from all living players, I win.
<snip>
1-shot, Night (gained N1, used N2) Spiders Everywhere: all players with web strands gain an additional web strand.
Webadict: See above.
1. That ability is a little vague. My interpretation of it is that you would likely only gain one power, as it doesn't appear to be related to the number of abilities that are targeting you, but the number of players. If the ability was from the same person, it wouldn't increase the number of powers.Quick post while I muddle my way through too many posts: clarification questions.
Webadict: A few questions:
*If a player had a power that acts as flabort describes Heroes, and that player was hit by multiple counts of the same multi-target power at the same time (by redirect?), how many powers would they get?
*If a player had a power that acts as flabort describes Heroes and used a power that acts as flabort describes Spiders Everywhere, would they gain powers through the use of the latter? Spiders Everywhere is not a targeted power as described, so I would think not.
2. Not being a targeted action is NOT the same as not targeting a player. In this case, you would be indirectly targeting any player with web strands. However, without a clarification as to what constitutes that last line, I'm afraid I can't be of more help, as that may change the nature of this ruling.
Post by: webadict on June 22, 2017, 09:50:37 pm
Ok reading some stuff and thinking about other stuff.Typically, a "Your action has failed" action is reserved for when you are unable to find your target (Such as a Hide action) or your ability fails to hit a valid target (Say, an ability requires targeting a dead player and it hits a living player due to a redirect). This would NOT include roleblocks, which generate a block message. Additionally, many failures may be action-related, so there may be conditions applied that allows for their failure, as failures DO NOT reduce the number of uses an ability has remaining (1-Shots are not used when they fail.)
webadict: Can you give a list of circumstances under which you would give a player a "you failed" sort of message from their night action (as opposed to giving no message at all in regards to their night action)?
Post by: webadict on June 22, 2017, 09:52:46 pm
Day has been Extended! +48 Hours
Vote Count
------------------------
4maskwolf - Lenglon, Tiruin, flabort,
flabort -
hector13 -
Jack A T -
Lenglon-Shakerag - Shakerag,
Persus13 -
Tea -
TheBiggerFish - Tea,
TheDarkStar -
Tiruin - TheDarkStar,
TolyK -
No Lynch - TolyK,
Not Voting - hector13, Jack A T, Persus13, 4maskwolf, TheBiggerFish,
6 To Hammer. Day Ends on Monday, June 26th around 8:00 PM CST. There is no Extension available.
Quote from: Current Rules
Survival - The Mafiakill does not count toward the 1 action per Phase limit.
Post by: Tiruin on June 23, 2017, 12:21:37 am
I did NOT use thr Foam Finger ability. Yet.
As in, it is still with me and unusrd. I only did TWO actions thus far.
Post by: TheDarkStar on June 23, 2017, 11:55:42 am
Role name - redacted in case scum have a power like... Tiruin's? (I can't remember) that uses role names. Or was that ability names? I'll reread people's role claims later.
auto - I see who visits me
night - track someone
day - [redacted, but if/when I use it webadict will announce that it was me]
1-shot day inspect - if anyone has a power to add more uses to abilities, that would be great.
So not a high-powered role, but a solid investigative one.
Post by: TheDarkStar on June 23, 2017, 12:01:23 pm
TolyK: You have an everyone-wins idea, right? How does it work? I assume that means you have some kind of mass-alignment-conversion ability?
Lenglon-Shakerag: I'm trying to figure out how what you've claimed would be balanced for the game, especially as town. You have an extremely powerful LYLO-breaker (2 votes + you say that you could probably win you v 3 other people). Have you fullclaimed yet?
I'll reread the thread now, I'm still looking for the question that Tiruin reminded me about answering. And there are some people whose posts I want to reread.
Post by: Lenglon on June 23, 2017, 12:53:23 pm
Post by: Shakerag on June 23, 2017, 01:21:38 pm
Lenglon-Shakerag: I'm trying to figure out how what you've claimed would be balanced for the game, especially as town. You have an extremely powerful LYLO-breaker (2 votes + you say that you could probably win you v 3 other people).
Quote from: TheDarkStar
Have you fullclaimed yet?No, and as I said above, I am reluctant to do so such that the scumteam won't know every trick up our sleeves.
Furthermore, now that you claimed you have a day inspect, I would suggest you use it because you kind of painted a target on yourself.
Tiruin:
So you're claiming you received a message both nights that your actions failed, but webadict just clarified that "fail" messages are not roleblock messages. So are you going to try and claim you were redirected back to yourself or a dead player both nights now?
flabort:
4maskI'm hinting at my role for if we do a massclaim later. Pretty standard stuff. It's not related to the answer to your question, really, I just did it because I mentioned my role so I figured I might as well leave that there as well.TolyK: I know nothing of the game modes beyond what's been said in the thread, and it'd be weird if I did because my role is not related to games or modes in any way. Wer mit Ungeheuern kämpft, mag zusehn, dass er nicht dabei zum Ungeheuer wird. Und wenn du lange in einen Abgrund blickst, blickt der Abgrund auch in dich hinein.Emphasis mine. Google translate says:
"He who fights with monsters may see that he does not become a monster. And when you look long into an abyss, the abyss also looks into you"
Thanks for the answer, but why the hidden text? :P
1-shot, mafiakill (gained N2): Monster Within: Convert target to your alignment, if successful you die and flip as their role + alignment, they gain this role.Hmm. It's not quite a smoking gun still in hand, but it looks like it's awfully close. I'm okay with Lenglon keeping her vote on 4mask for now.
Post by: Shakerag on June 23, 2017, 01:34:38 pm
What exactly did you mean by "keeping an eye on Flabort"? Is that an ability you're referring to?I acted on you...lenglon and you, both nights :v
Tiruin:Lenglon-Shakerag Coalition: My actions have been failing since two nights ago (and maybe this is good as I'm being blocked by scum) :3So you've acted on someone both nights or were blocked? And who are the confirmed "non-Mafiases" but-can-probably-be-SKs? Like I said, we didn't get any messages last night about anything happening to us. (As an aside, now I know how Venom feels with this always using "we" instead of "I").
But woo, we've confirmed non-Mafiases.
Who can probably be SKs.
Who I've acted on on both nights. :v
My actions have failed, both nights. :O
Other than me keeping an eye on Flabort.
Tea:
What are your reads on 4mask, Tiruin, TheBiggerFish, and TheDarkStar?
TolyK:
Still waiting to hear about your plan.
TheDarkStar:
It's your call, but if you're taking suggestions a day inspect on TheBiggerFish might not be bad. He's had low content and will likely not have much or any for today, so it'll be hard to get a read on him.
Post by: Tea on June 23, 2017, 02:03:17 pm
Tea:
What are your reads on 4mask, Tiruin, TheBiggerFish, and TheDarkStar?
Collectively, those people have the worst interactions with FoU.
4mask built the initial charge against flabort while there was a lot of pressure on FoU, had ~no interactions with FoU D1, and then made a big show of burying FoU over something that seemed like a null tell on D2. He fits with basically everyone in {bad interactions with FoU} group, except maaybe not TDS due to the redirection thing. (Not that they're not smart/crafy enough for it, but I would suspect they would seem more invested in the actual game if they were scum together and pulling such fancy stuff?) I think he's a good lynch; am not voting him/trying to pressure him bc I expect him to be able to sweettalk me regardless.
I still feel that TBF's unvote of Pozzai was scummy. The underlying attitude of just kind of throwing up his hands saying "well I still think Pozzai's the most scummy but I'ma back off cuz of <simplistic thing>" doesn't look like someone who was trying very hard to scumhunt. I find it incredibly unlikely he's aligned with either TheDarkStar or Tiruin (like, I think FoU/Jack and FoU/Persus are a bit more likely than TBF/TDS & TBF/Tiruin, which is saying something since I don't find either of those FoU pairs very likely) and so I'm very interested in TBF's alignment.
DarkStar if mafia would prob have to be with someone with good interactions with FoU as I think DarkStar/TBF is almost TolyK/FoU tier unlikely. Tiruin/DarkStar and to a lesser extent DarkStar/4mask based on DarkStar's stuff today. When he shows up to the thread he just kinda does his own thing and it seems vaguely promising, if entirely mechanical and disconnected from everyone else.
Even when Tiruin says she's being clear about something my eyes kinda glaze over and go "...just ...what?" I think I feel like she's more 3P than mafia still, which fits with us having basically the same PoE pool :p.
So basically I think the most likely scumteam is FoU/4mask/TBF and that town+3P mostly has controlled the game's narrative.
I think Shakerag/FoU is pretty unlikely from interactions on both ends -- Shakerag's "hold me I'm scared" vote on FoU on D2, FoU's intense questioning+mild shading toward Shakerag D1. hector is mechanical toptown and pushed FoU hard and early. Jack/Persus also unlikely to a lesser extent; think they're both capable of having advanced the game's narrative in a different direction than FoU and not looking bad for it. I think flabort is ~confirmed town(/3P incredibly similar to what his current claim is) from the manner in which he's publicly asked questions to the mod.
Post by: Persus13 on June 23, 2017, 02:26:09 pm
flabort:Yeah, that seems like too much of a coincidence. 4maskwolf.4maskI'm hinting at my role for if we do a massclaim later. Pretty standard stuff. It's not related to the answer to your question, really, I just did it because I mentioned my role so I figured I might as well leave that there as well.TolyK: I know nothing of the game modes beyond what's been said in the thread, and it'd be weird if I did because my role is not related to games or modes in any way. Wer mit Ungeheuern kämpft, mag zusehn, dass er nicht dabei zum Ungeheuer wird. Und wenn du lange in einen Abgrund blickst, blickt der Abgrund auch in dich hinein.Emphasis mine. Google translate says:
"He who fights with monsters may see that he does not become a monster. And when you look long into an abyss, the abyss also looks into you"
Thanks for the answer, but why the hidden text? :P1-shot, mafiakill (gained N2): Monster Within: Convert target to your alignment, if successful you die and flip as their role + alignment, they gain this role.Hmm. It's not quite a smoking gun still in hand, but it looks like it's awfully close. I'm okay with Lenglon keeping her vote on 4mask for now.
I really need to go back and read through the whole flabort, Tiruin. Will let you know what I find.
Post by: Tiruin on June 23, 2017, 02:44:58 pm
Tiruin:PFPWhaa?
So you're claiming you received a message both nights that your actions failed, but webadict just clarified that "fail" messages are not roleblock messages. So are you going to try and claim you were redirected back to yourself or a dead player both nights now?
...No? I've stated them, literally, as is. I just got, concisely in brevity as webbywubwub does, "You fail" pertaining to my action. :v "Your action has failed."
That same brevity that you get when you get a Game Over sign [and an 'insert coin' afterwards].
Also, just to boop, especially a helpful Lenglon: I have an ability that'll help you and your fusion, but also help you help me to double-clear us as town just to ensure us off.
Would you prefer I used it? Tonight or somewise?
Quote
Even when Tiruin says she's being clear about something my eyes kinda glaze over and go "...just ...what?" I think I feel like she's more 3P than mafia still, which fits with us having basically the same PoE pool :p.:'( (Love you Tea)
But I *AM* clear about what had happened to me lately, like seriously.
I failed. :v I got no word after on what had happened to my actions other than 'you fail', no idea where it goes, no idea whom received it if it's non-roleblocked, and NO there is NO restriction to who I can target or whatever that isn't orthodox [1x per phase {which means either day/night}]
What exactly did you mean by "keeping an eye on Flabort"? Is that an ability you're referring to?I...made a post (probably to Tea) explaining what that meant. And what that meant was 'Flabort is on my 'really want to be sure about' list so I'm keeping an eye on him', which is an expression for 'I'M WATCHING YOU IN A NON-ABILITY WAY' but I didn't clarify it to be an ability.
Because why would I be too overt like that :P
But seriously what I meant was 'I was suspishis of Flabort back then so I said that. But right before that I said what happened. :v'
So, to recap:
> TolyK's night 2 whatever that was said to me in a somewhat subtle way that isn't direct or overt, WAS NEVER RECEIVED (and I want a response from him)
> I'm still confused on 4mask/TDS/whichever and when it happened [he redirected in the...when now? Day or night? And how is he sure I'm town, and TDS is town?]
> My actions failed both nights. That's all I got so my speculations were free in guessing (ie I guessed I was blocked because I thought that was how it was parsed in this game since I've got nothing beforehand to familiarize myself with)
--N1 I investigated Lenglon-Shakerag; N2 I protected Lenglon-Shakerag. Both failed. No idea on any other details whatsoever. Ever.
> My note on 'watching Flabort' was an expression. It culminates to the today in which I've decided to shelve him and say 'yeah he's town' and instead turn my eye on those on that shelf (list of folks I was more certain about on subjective means) instead.
> I have not used any Day ability (like Jack's given Foam Finger for vote boosts!). Also quoting that third ">" for reference.
Tiruin:N2 is yes. N1 is nope--I investigated you. It failed. I got NUFFIN [nothing] other than the message of the fail.
N1 you protected me, is that correct?
N2 you again protected me, is this correct?
PPE: Woah, that's...coincidentally wow o_O It polarizes Flabort and 4mask because i can see 4mask reasonably using it as a fakeclaim in the future with awesome spicy flavor, but also Flabort POSSIBLY making it a fakeclaim to implicate someone at random [but may have subtly looked back and framed this very precisely]
But that's overspeculation, and rather less believed by me due to his behavior lately so...
I am super curious about 4mask.
Essentially, especially, why he outs me and TDS as town and stuff when precariousness like that is given.
Post by: Shakerag on June 23, 2017, 02:49:04 pm
Tiruin:Whoops, wait, Lenglon made a good point about something and I'm rules checking with webadict. This might be explainable after all.
So you're claiming you received a message both nights that your actions failed, but webadict just clarified that "fail" messages are not roleblock messages. So are you going to try and claim you were redirected back to yourself or a dead player both nights now?
Tea:
Even when Tiruin says she's being clear about something my eyes kinda glaze over and go "...just ...what?"Oh man, this is exactly what I have been saying for years. Someone else gets it!
Post by: Tea on June 23, 2017, 03:01:36 pm
Consider my vote on 4mask for the monster flavor claim + bad FoU interactions. Don't remember what happens if a majority is reached.
Btw I know nothing about spiders and that's the main confusion for me related to Tiruin rn.
Post by: hector13 on June 23, 2017, 03:02:10 pm
TDS - probably town. Most of his posts are from D1, wherein he gives his opinion on a few different players with accompanying evidence to back those up. Hasn't voted a great deal, but the votes have made sense as far as I can tell.
4mask - Was my top scum pick, but this seems a little shaky in light of TDS' apparent scum read of Tiruin, who is also voting 4mask, as well as how he tried to vote FoU yesterday, who flipped scum. I am aware that 4mask likes to gamble in mafia, and Fallacy was being mostly useless D2 so had little chance of avoiding being lynched, so I can't rule out an opportunistic bus... not sure.
Most unhappy about the TDS redirect though. Tiruin is a difficult read, and if 4mask is scum he'll know he's unlikely to die during the night if they could account for every death/revive that has happened so far. Redirecting TDS, knowing he's probably town and thus likely to share what they find, will allow him and his buddies to figure out if Tiruin is a threat to them.
Spent a great deal of time posting during RVS but not really generating much content. Left an ostensible pressure vote on Lenglon for a great deal of time without much actual pressure beyond the post it came in. Pretty much skipped D2, and tried to land on the FoU bandwagon.
Overall, feels like scum. Won't vote just yet since I need to go through everyone else, but is a likely candidate at this point.
errrr... so tired. Seemed like a good idea to read through Tir's stuff at this point given TDS' read on her influencing my read of 4mask, but I'm falling asleep at the screen :'( I read through 20 of Tir's 53 posts, I'm getting town feels from them, but it's less than half of her stuff. More later.
Post by: Lenglon on June 23, 2017, 03:15:25 pm
Post by: Tiruin on June 23, 2017, 03:33:02 pm
Tir - there have been a number of redirects, blocks, and failing actions this game. I have no problem with you using the ability in of itself, but I have concerns about it not making it to us successfully. I suggest not telling anyone at all when you plan on using it until after you've done it.Very well.
You will notice a few things--I will call you out if I see any Mafiakill in the abilities.
First is my full roster of abilities--a JOAT with Flabort's auto of Balance for rechecking. {Metaknowledge boosting JOAT stuff like Investigate/Roleblock/Protect by combining and letting these happen in combo if I guess right in metaknowledge}
And that Foam Finger.
I will be annoyingly surprised if this fails though >_>
PFPJust why did someone send in spiders as a role. -_-
Consider my vote on 4mask for the monster flavor claim + bad FoU interactions. Don't remember what happens if a majority is reached.
Btw I know nothing about spiders and that's the main confusion for me related to Tiruin rn.
PFP
Post by: Shakerag on June 23, 2017, 03:50:26 pm
Just why did someone send in spiders as a role. -_-Calling it now - next game I'm sending in "The BYORXX Role That Makes Tiruin Confront Her Arachnophobia".
Post by: webadict on June 24, 2017, 12:04:04 am
------------------------
4maskwolf - Lenglon, Tiruin, flabort, Persus13,
flabort -
hector13 -
Jack A T -
Lenglon-Shakerag - Shakerag,
Persus13 -
Tea -
TheBiggerFish - Tea,
TheDarkStar -
Tiruin - TheDarkStar,
TolyK -
No Lynch - TolyK,
Not Voting - hector13, Jack A T, 4maskwolf, TheBiggerFish,
6 To Hammer. Day Ends on Monday, June 26th around 8:00 PM CST. There is no Extension available.
Quote from: Current Rules
Survival - The Mafiakill does not count toward the 1 action per Phase limit.
Post by: Tiruin on June 24, 2017, 12:22:11 am
Well :v Lenglon-Shakerag is confirmed town [in the least that they don't have a mafiakill] so.
...Seriously why the name.
Anyway, cheers Lenglon-Shakerag!
Post by: Lenglon on June 24, 2017, 01:25:33 am
Post by: Tiruin on June 24, 2017, 01:30:04 am
Tiruin - In what world was what you just did even slightly a good idea?I swapped roles with you. Like, fully.
There was nothing wrong with that if and unless I INFER something very important that you have, which I am keeping secret because of importance.
That said, goodness gracious. Whoever made your name (I blame Shakerag)
Post by: Lenglon on June 24, 2017, 01:32:57 am
By using it on us, she crippled us instead. she did get a bigger effective power boost because we had a very good ability set (before she did that).
Tir - I get that you asked if we were okay with you doing *something* that supposedly would confirm us as town to each other, but 1: that doesn't confirm you as town, it just confirms you as non-mafia, and 2: you crippled us when you did it, and 3: you used a 1-shot effective dayinspect on someone you didn't think was scum, simply because it would let you centralize power in yourself.
So what on earth were you thinking?!?
Post by: Lenglon on June 24, 2017, 01:34:53 am
Tir, the effectiveness of our role was largely based on us having multiple votes. by swapping roles, you reduced that role's effective votecount by 1.Tiruin - In what world was what you just did even slightly a good idea?I swapped roles with you. Like, fully.
There was nothing wrong with that if and unless I INFER something very important that you have, which I am keeping secret because of importance.
That said, goodness gracious. Whoever made your name (I blame Shakerag)
that was stupid.
Post by: Tiruin on June 24, 2017, 01:40:05 am
To explain why I'm angry right now - Tiruin just used a 1-shot ability on us that crippled us, and boosted herself. If she had used it on scum it would have disabled them from using the mafiakill and she would have seen the mafiakill ability she took from them.I've not actually boosted or crippled anyone--I used a one shot that effectively SWAPS ROLES.
By using it on us, she crippled us instead. she did get a bigger effective power boost because we had a very good ability set (before she did that).
3: you used a 1-shot effective dayinspect on someone you didn't think was scum, simply because it would let you centralize power in yourself.The 'centralize power on myself' bit was unimportant as it would've been used to anyone <_<
...And because x-shots can be reset and renewed.
1: that doesn't confirm you as town, it just confirms you as non-mafia>_>
<_<
...That, I didn't think about in its full implications undetailed here.
And, I didn't know you had this one thing that I'm currently PMing web on asking ._.
Also, of note, you have MY ROLE FULLY AS IS, which as I can see now--is inevitably a ton more powerful than what you've got there >_> because you can both act on what abilities persist because that ONE ability you had that restricted you and gave you freedom, DOES NOT exist anymore for both of you. Emphasis on 'restricted' as that is usually not remembered when you read the latter part of that sentence in your ability that I've got here.
PPE: The votecount is actually unknown (unless you asked Webadict about it somewhere and he exactly confirmed it); that's what I'm asking him in PMs now due to the wording of said ability.
Although I fairly ask--why didn't you make it permanent, knowing that you are town?
Post by: Tiruin on June 24, 2017, 01:44:20 am
Else I will have to reveal what I do not wish to reveal regarding what I've surmised on what's going on that will not be invariably beneficial to us.
...Because seriously, my role is nice too. <_<
And WHY would I in fact use it on you [in the thinking if I wasn't TOWN] and pressed that forward? In the least, Town is surely going to win this--especially when the secondary nature of what you've got isn't 'effectively limited by being one role' but with two people.
Actually it is now a conundrum, since YOU DO NOT HAVE THAT ABILITY, you are now one person EACH with that same role.
I have no idea about the alignment now >_>
Post by: Lenglon on June 24, 2017, 01:47:23 am
instead you used that on town.
We had a declared very strong role that was based on vote use.
We now have a much weaker role, and the number of votes available to the vote-use role is reduced by one.
my only question to you is:
Are you a survivor or an SK? Because what you just did was blatently non-town.
Post by: Tiruin on June 24, 2017, 01:52:28 am
What votes you stole are still yours. You just can't steal anymore and no way I'm going to use this ability against you back. Because you are beneficial to Town.
I only swapped my role with yours.
You now have a 'much weaker' role and 'the number of votes is reduced by one'; that does NOT MATTER because you still have a role that you can fairly use individually (albeit you're still conjoined so anything targeting you hits both of you).
Because why would you vote stealing matter given the context of these >_> It's like you fear your own abilities being used on you.
When I won't do that.
Also, please drop this line of 'instead you used that on town' else I'll have to reiterate my one suggestion.
Post by: Tiruin on June 24, 2017, 01:53:59 am
Seriously. You can inspect and protect, roleblock and evade. Do not push this further.
And yes I'm glad Webadict is online despite PC troubles >_<
Post by: webadict on June 24, 2017, 02:00:30 am
And yes I'm glad Webadict is online despite PC troubles >_<What? I don't have PC troubles. I just sometimes have things I gotta do instead of updating.
Also, I'm trying to decide if I really need to buy $100 worth of Steam games...
Post by: Lenglon on June 24, 2017, 02:07:16 am
4mask
Talking to Web in quicktopic while I attempt to calm down, but you still haven't justified your action in any meaningful way.
Tir, you still have utterly failed to explain your target selection and how what you did is helpful.
if anyone DOES have an 1-shot reset, it would be more useful to use it on Tir than on us at this time. The fusion ability is worth resetting, and is frankly better than the roleswap 1-shot Tir just used. despite how I would very much like Tir to have not done that.
Post by: Tea on June 24, 2017, 02:22:59 am
Post by: Tiruin on June 24, 2017, 02:45:26 am
Also I just took a nice warm shower for thinking, and IF YOU ARE TOWN, LENGLON/SHAKERAG, you can actually ENACT as your old role (sans vote stealing) by protecting yourself, while the other person uses whichever else in the arsenal towards others [I'd prefer you investigated folks].
And given my Balance, you--as individually Lenglon or Shakerag, cannot use the previous power as before. This is individually tied.
Meaning, given the ADDED BONUSES that I've mentioned vaguely as boosts back in the day, do apply.
Because you are each individuals. Lenglon, Shakerag, each can act by themselves. But the target is Lenglon-Shakerag, alongside the actor being Lenglon-Shakerag.
Spoiler: For Lenglag (click to show/hide)
Ok here's my previous claim [my claim that Lenglon-Shakerag has]. I've added falsified information that Lenglon-Shakerag can easily sift through.
I will NOT claim what their role is for benefits of their survival [ok fine I will but I'll censor everything important, from names to exacts of x-shots]
This was Tiruin (With custom formatting--all are true, but changed and reverse-detailed for benefits to avoid exact manipulation {ie name/ability recognition manipulation}
Quote
{Cardcaptor Sakura}
(Auto) Balance: You have cannot use the same ability twice in a row.
(Auto) Clow Cards: You can combine your abilities depending on the requirements listed below.
> If you can name the rolename of the target, do both of {ACTION X/Y}
> If you can name an ability of the target's, do both of {ACTION Y/Z}
> If you can name a player other than yourself who actions the target, do both of {ACTION M/F}
(Night) The Mirror [target]: You learn the alignment of the target.
(Night) The Illusion [target]: You learn a random ability of the target.
(Night) The Wood [target]: Block the target.
(Night) The Light [target]: Disable a random action from the target.
(Night) The Watery [target]: Redirect the target.
(Night) The Jump [target]: Track the target and see who they action.
(Night) The Maze [target]: Delay the target's action until the next cycle.
(Night) The Flower [target]: You hide.
(Night) The Shield [target]: Protect the target
(Night) The Shadow [target]: Watch the target and learn who actioned them.
(Night) The Sword [target]: Kill the target {REQUIREMENT NEEDED to be enacted}
(X-Shot) The Erase [target]: Switch roles with a player.
Also, seriously, @Lenglon/Shakerag. You can Foam Finger yourself and gain +1 vote. :v
Now, why I targeted YOU LENGLON/SHAKERAG is of the lack of overt targets--the person (shakerag) who has claimed to be a miller-SK and whom I had FAILED in investigating N1 is of both benefit to us (after Mafia :v) to really know if you're SK or not. IF yo are Town [since I went throughly with asking Web about my stuff D2+], then it's more beneficial since two birds with one stone, is two birds! {As in you can both seriously act with my arsenal :V}
But given web's response: What exists is--you're both the same alignment that Shakerag originally had. You're still under affects of the ability you did. And any/all auto's that were with the role, are now in affect in turn.
Also *I* am the one nerfed :P Because I only have ONE vote.
The PROBLEM is, I'm really suspicious of your true intent given...some wordings with some of these abilities that are OBVIOUSLY Shakerag's. And his humor.
So that's my target selection in a nutshell--if Town;ultra benefits because 2-in-1 and personal protections. If Mafia--Boom, headshot. If neither--Well let's see how that plays out.
Currently, I'm on one of these exact confirmations in seeing you.
...But I am seriously confused why Shakerag would miller-SK in the first place so that's due to thinking about what had happened <_<
Hey Lengrag. Can you let me know whether you would find it pro-town or anti-town if Tiruin ended up with my vote? (Er to be clear I'm asking this for strategical reasons on my end.)And then Tea's vote had a bomb on it. :P
Post by: Tiruin on June 24, 2017, 02:47:48 am
*BAP* to you Lenglon D:<
You're more epic than otherwise :I
This ONE ability I have would've let you use MORE THAN TWO (since 1+1 = 2 abilities but same person), but I've nothing TO use. NOW, you are UNRESTRICTED WHATSOEVER.
Also I've no idea if the ability requirements in Clowcards specify you, but that was also nudging my reasoning since you can, inevitably, name each other.
Forever.
I:
Grumpying at me. Hmph.
So mean. :I
Post by: Lenglon on June 24, 2017, 03:01:49 am
Assuming she is town, and probably even if she is survivor since town is currently winning, it would be a very good idea to give her your vote. having two votes available at a minimum is a massive force multiplier for the way that our role works, and every vote after that is notceably helpful and is safer in general in the LYLO-breaker's hands than the original owners.
Tir - the reason we hadn't made our stolen votes permanant was to keep the people whos votes had been taken as active participants in the daygame. As you can see, we have no actual inspection mechanics, so we need people to be invested in their day play in order to find scum.
Warning - while you were typing 2 new replies
...
Checking with web about how the change in things works. the action limiting mechanic you're referencing was mine originally, so the effects of being fused without that in place weren't something I had checked. If what you're saying is correct, then this might be a good thing to have happened.
Tea - I think you should give Tir your vote.
Post by: Lenglon on June 24, 2017, 03:03:04 am
Post by: Tiruin on June 24, 2017, 03:07:48 am
That one post seeded doubt in me and which is what prompted me to [other than 2-in-1] investigate you N1. Alongside that, is the ONLY REASON (alongside Shakey's lacking explanation of doing that given what I'm reading here...) why I decided you're the next best swap-target. Because you're trustable.
Quote
I still feel that she's probably town but her action logic demands her be either survivor or SK centralizing power in herself.Or...I'm Town, and I targeted the person that's probably an SK or non-town who plays very well. :P
I don't really see that much power in this current role because it has no set phase in actions, and what actions that are present are...err.
Delicately worded.
Which makes me even more @_@ of you...r alignment.
But the good mews is that you can be investigated now. :3
And yes, your role lacks any inspection mechanics
Either way, ya ain't Mafia and that's what matters. \o/ {The wariness is because I can't decide if you're town or not :I}
Checking with web about how the change in things works. the action limiting mechanic you're referencing was mine originally, so the effects of being fused without that in place weren't something I had checked. If what you're saying is correct, then this might be a good thing to have happened.Indeed!
Tiruin - the foam finger did NOT transfer by the way, and we still have the thing TolyK sent us, you don't have it.Wot.
I had it--it just wasn't in my initial roster but web did boop me with it.
Maybe he forgot, since it's in a reply chain. I'ma boop him, since *I* don't have it. :P
Post by: Lenglon on June 24, 2017, 03:13:22 am
Post by: Tiruin on June 24, 2017, 03:15:45 am
OR, I'm missing aspects in public because I want to protect you.
...Meaning: Yes I know the specifics and I do know those exacts. But I do know that you can target each other--I asked Web. That's all I will say on that matter.
:I
I can be clever too! <_<
Post by: Lenglon on June 24, 2017, 03:19:39 am
So long as you understand why I'm still not happy with you, and you understand that you still have hurt the town with your action, then fine. not going into details.
Post by: Tiruin on June 24, 2017, 03:23:12 am
Press this further and I'll reveal this one bit that I found incriminating in your role that really doesn't belong in a town actionset.
Which is however complimented because of the OTHER wordings that makes me not see you as anti-town or see you as Town. <_<
But :I
"hurt the town" I:
You and SHakerag can really just pick one of the many abilities and shoot people with them.
ANd...yeah I get the unhappiness because this power of roleswaps can be used to counter-alignment check, but please understand from MY perspective you were also one of those who I'd in the least like to check on SINCE I couldn't investigate you back then <_<
And/or it boosts you anyway.
Post by: Lenglon on June 24, 2017, 04:13:43 am
It was because you're wrong and it doesn't boost us.
and when I said I CANT EXPLAIN WHY YOU'RE WRONG IN PUBLIC.
it's because I CANT EXPLAIN WHY YOU'RE WRONG IN PUBLIC.
and finally, when I said that what you did was harmful.
it's because it was harmful.
Here, let me explain what Tir is being all cagey about because she seems to think she can just use it to threaten us and dance around the subject of how she did some patently anti-town stuff just now:
When we swapped, she didn't receive the miller auto, and she did get an anti-inspection mechanic.
That's because the miller auto has a caveat to it saying it can't be copied, transferred, removed, spoofed, or swapped. I'm fairly certain this was assigned to Shake by Web specifically to mess with him. Because he's Shakerag, and because there's a number of role-transfer abilities in play this game.
The anti-inspection thing is co-assigned to a defensive mechanic of the role, in fact the ONLY defensive mechanic he had before I fused with Shakerag. It has been active literally since game start. If he hadn't claimed miller, then inspections might have been wasted upon us, even possibly inspections from the same person more than once. Again, it's classic web messing with Shake, and if he had wanted to just keep it active the entire game and never claim miller, he could and would have.
From Tir's perspective, since she doesn't see our alignment directly, can't see the miller auto, and does see an anti-inspection ability, we look almost exactly like an SK.
now here's the other thing:
Tir - did Shakerag have any killing abilities? at all?
The answer to the above question, which Tir will confirm for anyone who cares to read this shortly, is No. He did not.
As I said, we're town.
Tir - Have you done the research necessary to see where you messed up and caused the harm yet? bear in mind the passive effects of being two players and how it interacts with our old role, and be aware of the partial truths of the role you claimed for us that might as well have been a full-blown-fakeclaim considering how prolific the inaccuracies are within it. also notice the specific wording of the ability that was limiting us. especially word number 9 in sentence 1.
This was not okay Tir.
Post by: Tiruin on June 24, 2017, 04:40:02 am
But this bit is what I want to highlight not helping at all:
Quote
Here, let me explain what Tir is being all cagey about because she seems to think she can just use it to threaten us and dance around the subject of how she did some patently anti-town stuff just nowI hate when people assume my intent and then word it in their own prejudice.
Y'know instead of talking with me.
If you'd like for me to admit I messed up: SURE I MESSED UP.
Would you like me to admit that it'd be better off used on scum? SURE IT WOULD
But I never knew ANY of this beforehand.
Maybe put that in your perspective too please >_>
Because I'm being attacked with NO acknowledgement on you and your OWN role that you have right there. What you can do with it too [I mean you can even perma-block me if you believe me to be otherwise non-town. -_- Like seriously. You know everything I have; that's part of the boost there. You know your role. You know the name. You know all of it that exists within it.
And I keep asking to read between the lines because I do know where your limits are. I'm saying otherwise in public.]
Quote
Tir - did Shakerag have any killing abilities? at all?An SK's kill is a factional kill. Just like the Mafiakill MODIFIER is always a present thing--it however does not constitute the Mafia kill. It takes the place of such a kill.
Strangely the rule change is still in play so it's a free action. <_<
Post by: Lenglon on June 24, 2017, 04:53:17 am
WEB:
Quote
An SK's kill is a factional kill. Just like the Mafiakill MODIFIER is always a present thing--it however does not constitute the Mafia kill. It takes the place of such a kill.is this true? A SK's kill is a factionkill like the mafiakill, and it has it by default unless specifically listed otherwise?
Strangely the rule change is still in play so it's a free action. <_<
Tir:
uou tried to warn me off pushing on you over this action, saying you'd reveal scummy stuff about me if I didn't. That is a threat, being used to try to make me drop what you did. Its not about your intent, its about your act.
but, I admit, this isn't getting us anywhere.
so... at least for now... I'll drop it. at the very least until I cool off. I don't really trust my own judgement right now (been up for over 24 hours).
Post by: Lenglon on June 24, 2017, 04:57:57 am
Sorry for the blame and aggression Tir.
Post by: Tiruin on June 24, 2017, 05:04:10 am
actually, pah, might as well say this now.I typed up a long post, and this one thing made me :'( Thanks...
Sorry for the blame and aggression Tir.
...Yeah you covered it well.
...It's what I assumed anyway since in all the games thus far; every SK had a factional kill ._. even if it wasn't explicitly in the ability list.
WEB:QuoteAn SK's kill is a factional kill. Just like the Mafiakill MODIFIER is always a present thing--it however does not constitute the Mafia kill. It takes the place of such a kill.is this true? A SK's kill is a factionkill like the mafiakill, and it has it by default unless specifically listed otherwise?
Strangely the rule change is still in play so it's a free action. <_<
Tir:...Well how would you react when you read that one auto and had the background of someone with miller-SK?
uou tried to warn me off pushing on you over this action, saying you'd reveal scummy stuff about me if I didn't. That is a threat, being used to try to make me drop what you did. Its not about your intent, its about your act.
With my only feeling otherwise being 'they didn't steal votes .-.; or use that one ability that'd be a LYLO breaker' [and more otherthings]
>_>
Also...I didn't see it moreso as a threat; I saw it more a threat to us [town]. If I had revealed the SK-y bits, it'd attract attention that I -cannot- protect against. Because...y'know, you have my protects.
So yeah <_<
;~; the sorry makesme cry. thanks
Post by: TheDarkStar on June 24, 2017, 05:35:10 am
I'll post more later once I've actually had sleep.
Tiruin: I'd like to see at least a partial role-claim for your new role. Why were Shakerag-Lenglon so confident about their prospects of winning against multiple other people? When you say that certain powers seem be from Shakerag originally, what do you mean? Why do you think it's suspicious?
Post by: TolyK on June 24, 2017, 06:00:25 am
@Shakerag's q: I'll write it up once I get out of bed. Tiruin caused a bit of a mess though and I wanna try to understand it... -.-
Post by: hector13 on June 24, 2017, 07:12:16 am
TL;DR
Tiruin swapped roles with Lenglon-Shakerag, Lenglon is furious, feels (felt?) Tiruin did something super anti-town by doing so.
Essentially Tiruin has made herself a target, Lengrag can protect themselves, allegedly.
Also, according to OP, only Mafia get a faction/built-in kill.
Post by: hector13 on June 24, 2017, 07:52:40 am
Also, Tiruin was threatening to reveal something about Lakerag's previous role in order to get Lenglon to stop pressing her over the apparently super anti-town role swap, presumably that the SK-Miller auto that Shakerag has isn't swappable/transferable etc., or reveal a particular ability that isn't/shouldn't (not quite sure on this) be part of a town moveset.
Post by: Persus13 on June 24, 2017, 08:54:53 am
If she had used it on scum it would have disabled them from using the mafiakill and she would have seen the mafiakill ability she took from them.That's not true. A scum player would have lost any special mafiakills they have, but BYOR Mafia have a generic mafiakill that any of the mafia can access, so it wouldn't have disabled them.
But seriously Tiruin, why did you use on two players who were behaving fairly town, and not on someone like TBF? WHy did you pick Lengrag?
WEB:The SK bit is not true, otherwise there would have been a lot more deaths in the 5 SK BYOR.QuoteAn SK's kill is a factional kill. Just like the Mafiakill MODIFIER is always a present thing--it however does not constitute the Mafia kill. It takes the place of such a kill.is this true? A SK's kill is a factionkill like the mafiakill, and it has it by default unless specifically listed otherwise?
Strangely the rule change is still in play so it's a free action. <_<
Post by: Shakerag on June 24, 2017, 09:39:49 am
Post by: webadict on June 24, 2017, 10:14:43 am
...100% false.
WEB:QuoteAn SK's kill is a factional kill. Just like the Mafiakill MODIFIER is always a present thing--it however does not constitute the Mafia kill. It takes the place of such a kill.is this true? A SK's kill is a factionkill like the mafiakill, and it has it by default unless specifically listed otherwise?
Strangely the rule change is still in play so it's a free action. <_<
Post by: webadict on June 24, 2017, 10:21:06 am
SKs do not get a factional kill. Mafia do not always have a Mafiakill modifier ability. What rule states any of these? In fact, the first post in the game states directly counter to this....100% false.
WEB:QuoteAn SK's kill is a factional kill. Just like the Mafiakill MODIFIER is always a present thing--it however does not constitute the Mafia kill. It takes the place of such a kill.is this true? A SK's kill is a factionkill like the mafiakill, and it has it by default unless specifically listed otherwise?
Strangely the rule change is still in play so it's a free action. <_<
Post by: Lenglon on June 24, 2017, 10:51:47 am
Post by: Lenglon on June 24, 2017, 11:29:01 am
My portion of the role was an infinate action mechanic, a defensive mechanic, and a cluster of 1-shots. only one of my one-shots have been used (the fusion), the rest are still available and are very strong in a LYLO environment. Shake's side of the role ALREADY was designed as a LYLO breaker pre-fusion. by combining them we were absurdly powerful, able to make a crazy number of actions while protected multiple ways and collecting a large number of votes. Tir, not being two players at once, is unable to get the full benefits of the role, and will be vulnerable to certain things at LYLO that we would not have been. giving her an extra vote or two would help her gain most of the power we used to have, but she still can't quite go 1v3 (or more) with good odds of success like we could even if she gets extra votes.
The best thing that could happen would be if my (now hers) fusion 1-shot gets reset and she uses it on us to make us into a tripled-up-slot, which would also aleviate my concern about her being a 3rd-party just trying to centralize power in herself since it would make her alignment mine. But I have my doubts that such would be even possible since ive seen no such 1-shot-reset-ability in anyone's kit.
Post by: TolyK on June 24, 2017, 12:45:49 pm
Tiruin: You've claimed that you were blocked but (according to 4mask) I saw you act. At the very least, I'd like a full description of what you did last night.This post, among others, leads me to believe that TDS and 4mask are mafia.
Ok here's my previous claim [my claim that Lenglon-Shakerag has]. I've added falsified information that Lenglon-Shakerag can easily sift through.Tiruin, if I show you an ability that you already had, will you say if its yours or someone else's?
I will NOT claim what their role is for benefits of their survival [ok fine I will but I'll censor everything important, from names to exacts of x-shots]
This was Tiruin (With custom formatting--all are true, but changed and reverse-detailed for benefits to avoid exact manipulation {ie name/ability recognition manipulation}Quote{Cardcaptor Sakura}
(Auto) Balance: You have cannot use the same ability twice in a row.
(Auto) Clow Cards: You can combine your abilities depending on the requirements listed below.
> If you can name the rolename of the target, do both of {ACTION X/Y}
> If you can name an ability of the target's, do both of {ACTION Y/Z}
> If you can name a player other than yourself who actions the target, do both of {ACTION M/F}
(Night) The Mirror [target]: You learn the alignment of the target.
(Night) The Illusion [target]: You learn a random ability of the target.
(Night) The Wood [target]: Block the target.
(Night) The Light [target]: Disable a random action from the target.
(Night) The Watery [target]: Redirect the target.
(Night) The Jump [target]: Track the target and see who they action.
(Night) The Maze [target]: Delay the target's action until the next cycle.
(Night) The Flower [target]: You hide.
(Night) The Shield [target]: Protect the target
(Night) The Shadow [target]: Watch the target and learn who actioned them.
(Night) The Sword [target]: Kill the target {REQUIREMENT NEEDED to be enacted}
(X-Shot) The Erase [target]: Switch roles with a player.
TolyK:
Still waiting to hear about your plan.
Alright, here's my Initial Plan to potentially make everyone win.
Based on the info that:
- MAFIA has a 1-shot "mafiakill" called "Monster Within" that converts folks to Mafia. (This info is from Flabort).
- I have an ability to copy abilities.
- I have an ability to distribute abilities.
Requirements:
- Cooperation between town and mafia. (Yeah, I know. But seriously, read it out, then please note the pitfalls as you see them.)
THE PLAN.
I make multiple copies of the "Monster Within" one-shot Mafiakill (thus making it multi-shot), and give ONE COPY to a mafia player ("M").
"M" uses "Monster Within" on a townie (A) that isn't me. M dies, A becomes mafia. I give a copy of "Monster Within" to A.
"A" uses "Monster Within" on a townie (B) that isn't me. A dies, B becomes mafia. I give a copy of "Monster Within" to B.
This goes on as all the remaining townies (except for me) are converted to Mafia (and all-but-the-last-one die).
Finally, final Mafia player uses "Monster Within" on me. I become mafia, no more town are left, and everyone currently alive (as well as FoU) wins.
In preparation, I'm testing Flabort, Tiruin, and Lengrag. I'd strongly suggest one of the Lengrag target me or Jack and join our little chat, but that's not completely necessary.
Post by: Tiruin on June 24, 2017, 01:22:06 pm
Lengrag: you know you can discuss this with Tiruin privately, right? Well, semi-privately, with Jack and me, but at least we seem to be more trustworthy than others.# of ::) in this post: 1 and counting.
@Shakerag's q: I'll write it up once I get out of bed. Tiruin caused a bit of a mess though and I wanna try to understand it... -.-
...first off, I'm going to vote Lenglon-Shakerag because being a SK-miller with a miller ability that doesn't get moved with a role swap seems just a bit too convenient. Especially if the role's main mechanics involve massive LYLO-breaking (well, at least that's what you two have claimed). As far as I can tell, you're like a watcher but you wait for enough players to die rather than for a certain day, and then you mass-kill people or do whatever it is that lets you win vs 3 other people. I can't think of any reasonable reason that any set of powers like that is town. In addition, your response feels weird, especially this post (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164260.msg7493819#msg7493819) that feels like a major over-reaction. I mean yeah, you lost a nice role, but it still ended up with someone who you ...seem to think is town? and it's understandable that you would be really annoyed, but something about your response feels like you're frustrated scum.It's one of the night abilities. Makes them immune to kill/inspects.
I'll post more later once I've actually had sleep.
Tiruin: I'd like to see at least a partial role-claim for your new role. Why were Shakerag-Lenglon so confident about their prospects of winning against multiple other people? When you say that certain powers seem be from Shakerag originally, what do you mean? Why do you think it's suspicious?
Actually the SK can choose not to kill :P I do recall a game where the SK one...without killing anyone.WEB:The SK bit is not true, otherwise there would have been a lot more deaths in the 5 SK BYOR.QuoteAn SK's kill is a factional kill. Just like the Mafiakill MODIFIER is always a present thing--it however does not constitute the Mafia kill. It takes the place of such a kill.is this true? A SK's kill is a factionkill like the mafiakill, and it has it by default unless specifically listed otherwise?
Strangely the rule change is still in play so it's a free action. <_<
Either way, DESPITE the weird wording I have, L/S's attitude is very consistent and I'm reading all green on then.
Also my shame in the last hours is now being relized more. Aaah.
Hold on a second. Lenglon, Shakerag, do you BOTH still have the ability I sent you? Please check. Or is it shared between you? ...::)Tiruin: You've claimed that you were blocked but (according to 4mask) I saw you act. At the very least, I'd like a full description of what you did last night.This post, among others, leads me to believe that TDS and 4mask are mafia.Ok here's my previous claim [my claim that Lenglon-Shakerag has]. I've added falsified information that Lenglon-Shakerag can easily sift through.Tiruin, if I show you an ability that you already had, will you say if its yours or someone else's?
I will NOT claim what their role is for benefits of their survival [ok fine I will but I'll censor everything important, from names to exacts of x-shots]
This was Tiruin (With custom formatting--all are true, but changed and reverse-detailed for benefits to avoid exact manipulation {ie name/ability recognition manipulation}Quote{Cardcaptor Sakura}
(Auto) Balance: You have cannot use the same ability twice in a row.
(Auto) Clow Cards: You can combine your abilities depending on the requirements listed below.
> If you can name the rolename of the target, do both of {ACTION X/Y}
> If you can name an ability of the target's, do both of {ACTION Y/Z}
> If you can name a player other than yourself who actions the target, do both of {ACTION M/F}
(Night) The Mirror [target]: You learn the alignment of the target.
(Night) The Illusion [target]: You learn a random ability of the target.
(Night) The Wood [target]: Block the target.
(Night) The Light [target]: Disable a random action from the target.
(Night) The Watery [target]: Redirect the target.
(Night) The Jump [target]: Track the target and see who they action.
(Night) The Maze [target]: Delay the target's action until the next cycle.
(Night) The Flower [target]: You hide.
(Night) The Shield [target]: Protect the target
(Night) The Shadow [target]: Watch the target and learn who actioned them.
(Night) The Sword [target]: Kill the target {REQUIREMENT NEEDED to be enacted}
(X-Shot) The Erase [target]: Switch roles with a player.
2.
Ok seriously. First you don't follow up a case you made D1 (as in, go silent for the ever between), Second is you ignoremy last note on 'hey I didn't get N2 anything from you', and third is I have received a grand total of NOTHING in changes by PMor otherwise of mention in regards to your timing of menioting that subtle 'Tiruin N2' stuff buried in a quote that isn't overt in your writing.
So just go ahead and do it, because you can't 'show me what I already had' unless you can actually modify the role making. Which is the start of the GAAAAME. -.-
Also I'd love to see you fake-name better than Cardcaptor Sakura. :P
Hold on a second. Lenglon, Shakerag, do you BOTH still have the ability I sent you? Please check. Or is it shared between you? ...TELL ME MOAR :V because all these ability names I've got are in lieu with the role names.
. . .That's the wierdest Mafia'kill' I've seen.TolyK:
Still waiting to hear about your plan.
Alright, here's my Initial Plan to potentially make everyone win.
Based on the info that:
- MAFIA has a 1-shot "mafiakill" called "Monster Within" that converts folks to Mafia. (This info is from Flabort).
- I have an ability to copy abilities.
- I have an ability to distribute abilities.
Requirements:
- Cooperation between town and mafia. (Yeah, I know. But seriously, read it out, then please note the pitfalls as you see them.)
THE PLAN.
I make multiple copies of the "Monster Within" one-shot Mafiakill (thus making it multi-shot), and give ONE COPY to a mafia player ("M").
"M" uses "Monster Within" on a townie (A) that isn't me. M dies, A becomes mafia. I give a copy of "Monster Within" to A.
"A" uses "Monster Within" on a townie (B) that isn't me. A dies, B becomes mafia. I give a copy of "Monster Within" to B.
This goes on as all the remaining townies (except for me) are converted to Mafia (and all-but-the-last-one die).
Finally, final Mafia player uses "Monster Within" on me. I become mafia, no more town are left, and everyone currently alive (as well as FoU) wins.
How's about you use that copy ability on me instead. I've got a one-shot thingy that makes me CONJOIN into people, sharing THEIR alignment and my role. So that being--I can blob over onto Lenglag and get this Katamari (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katamari_Damacy) to victory.
Also I can't die or get inspected right if someone votes me even myself for one phase that can be reset per cycle, so yeah >_>
That's a bit of the thing that Lenglon went all :O about.
Quote from: Flabort
1-shot, mafiakill (gained N2): Monster Within: Convert target to your alignment, if successful you die and flip as their role + alignment, they gain this role.
Details, TolyK. You're doing that thing again.Tiruin: You've claimed that you were blocked but (according to 4mask) I saw you act. At the very least, I'd like a full description of what you did last night.This post, among others, leads me to believe that TDS and 4mask are mafia.
Also I don't see how that makes sense--he did a thing in some strange wording that somehow made sense to him but went against something he knows, so hence vote.
Post by: Tiruin on June 24, 2017, 01:26:13 pm
But seriously Tiruin, why did you use on two players who were behaving fairly town, and not on someone like TBF? WHy did you pick Lengrag?Because they can both use my abilities fairly well >_>
And I just detailed it waaaay back there.
Huh. Well good job Tiruin. That pretty much killed my interest in this game. Cheers!-_-
I'm done.
Blame me more, you jerk.
Post by: TolyK on June 24, 2017, 01:38:35 pm
Replying to your post:
I've given up on my T1 case because I can definitively (to me) see if you were lying or not, right now.
And yes I can show you.
Re: Copy your "blob" one-shot: I tried doing that to LengRag last night, it failed (it seems most actions failed against LengRag) so currently I ruled that out. However, that would be a more sure everyone-wins method if exactly that could be done.
I'm also doing an experiment with Flabort.
Regarding who the mafia actually is, I haven't spent too much time looking into that (yes, I know how silly that sounds), so I'm deferring to my own judgement and [undisclosed source]. Who the mafia is, at this moment, is less interesting to me than figuring out how to break the system. :P
Post by: Tiruin on June 24, 2017, 01:44:42 pm
Tiruin, I've sent my action sequence to Webadict.The only actions that can actually fail, inasfar as I can read from what I know, is KILLS and INSPECTS.
Replying to your post:
I've given up on my T1 case because I can definitively (to me) see if you were lying or not, right now.
And yes I can show you.
Re: Copy your "blob" one-shot: I tried doing that to LengRag last night, it failed (it seems most actions failed against LengRag) so currently I ruled that out. However, that would be a more sure everyone-wins method if exactly that could be done.
I'm also doing an experiment with Flabort.
Regarding who the mafia actually is, I haven't spent too much time looking into that (yes, I know how silly that sounds), so I'm deferring to my own judgement and [undisclosed source]. Who the mafia is, at this moment, is less interesting to me than figuring out how to break the system. :P
Do it to me because I know there's nothing stopping it here inasfar as I can read :v
Tell me what you need to be able to copy it.
Because HSakerag's one post there made me nearly just go ugh. Because it's like Doll's, except extremely less helpful, and a lot more wow out of character that stung me like Brutus stabs Caesar. It didn't kill him. But the shock and impact helped a lot with that.
And the 'ugh' means 'copy paste the whole damn role without doing anything because I cannot get in ANYWAY the emotional aspect of 'SUPER BAD ANTI TOWN MOVE' because I "NERFED THEM".
Regarding who the mafia actually is, I haven't spent too much time looking into that (yes, I know how silly that sounds), so I'm deferring to my own judgement and [undisclosed source]. Who the mafia is, at this moment, is less interesting to me than figuring out how to break the system. :P...And your role isn't broken?
In all honesty, I've no idea how 'broken' Shakerag's role was even if there is that miller ability--it can't be swpaped or otherwise, sure. I still can't get how 'nerfed' I made Lenglag other than removing their ability to not be killed or inspected. It's a miller ability? so what.
Then I get emotionally attacked just like how doll made a glaring generalization with a ton of charmlessness.
To think the brightest minds match in EQ too. >_>
Post by: Lenglon on June 24, 2017, 02:03:02 pm
TolyK: I WOULD be willing to go for the "everyone wins" strat, but you messed up your plan for how to end it. Your current plan will cause YOU to lose. Mafia win when they cannot be opposed anymore. can you solo-oppose the mafia? if not, then you will lose before your own conversion happens.
HOWEVER: if you are ALREADY either mafia or survivor, then your plan will work.
TolyK: Are you mafia? If so, I will NOT attempt to harm you, but I need to know for your plan to work. in that case just convert Tiruin last, because she CAN solo-oppose the scumteam.
Alternate plan - katamari - will fail as soon as the katamari becomes scum-aligned. we would need to have others fuse to the katamari, not the katamari fuse to others. other than that, it is a MUCH better idea.
TolyK - I can tell you how to make your actions succeed when aimed at Tir, but I need to know if you can copy a Used 1-shot and gain a use for it, otherwise there'd be no point in revealing a hole in her defenses.
Post by: Lenglon on June 24, 2017, 02:06:03 pm
Post by: TolyK on June 24, 2017, 02:09:34 pm
Post by: TolyK on June 24, 2017, 02:12:37 pm
Also, whether I would lose or not is debatable - in a high-power game, there can be still a scenario where the Mafia can lose (on purpose).
Regarding the actions succeeding - I do not currently know if I can copy a used 1-shot. That's an alternate vector to take this ("blobbing" everyone together :D), so (I think) I asked Wuba about it.
Post by: Lenglon on June 24, 2017, 02:18:22 pm
However, your claimed abilityset has almost completely negated my fears.
so...
Post by: Tiruin on June 24, 2017, 02:32:25 pm
TolyK: The reason I am hesitant to join your chat is a paranoid suspicion that you are a 3rd party and you gain power from it spreading, and I suspect that you are currently mildly crippled by my refusal to use it.You and Shakerag can throw out inspects like candy or protect each other by the way. :3
However, your claimed abilityset has almost completely negated my fears.
so...
Just saying since TolyK was a good choice secondhand <_>
I want a private chat with people I trust, mostly because there is some sensitive info that occurs there first, before I spill it out to the public.Did you think about this and Lenglag earlier?
Tir: MY defensive mechanic ALSO causes actions to give a "fail" message. MY defensive one, not Shake's, is why your PROTECT failed last night. Mine affects ALL actions, friendly and/or hostile ones....I don't see it at all. [It's NOT in the role that got swapped, meaning you still have it]
Also in checking up background lore [as...I can guess where web got those powers pretty well :P], is it that missing power in that list?
TolyK: Are you mafia? If so, I will NOT attempt to harm you, but I need to know for your plan to work. in that case just convert Tiruin last, because she CAN solo-oppose the scumteam.I'm all for this [and I'm also open to being investigated to soothe worries as I don't have those defenses IN THE DAY :v]
Post by: TolyK on June 24, 2017, 02:35:46 pm
In fact, Lenglon, if you want to join, I can probably do the joining for you. Or you can instead pick someone (such as Tiruin or Flabort (?)) to join as well as you.
Post by: Shakerag on June 24, 2017, 02:42:07 pm
Sorry hon, it's not your fault/personal. Lenglon/webadict know the tip of the iceberg on this one.Huh. Well good job Tiruin. That pretty much killed my interest in this game. Cheers!-_-
I'm done.
Blame me more, you jerk.
Post by: Lenglon on June 24, 2017, 02:42:33 pm
Also, re-read my abilities, because you DID get it, you ARE misreading how your defenses work (thankfully), and, again read the defensive mechanic that came from me, not shake. your current role has TWO layers of defenses, and the one that is way more complicated (mine) is also way more robust, and ALSO returns "fail" messages.
Post by: Lenglon on June 24, 2017, 02:47:18 pm
Post by: Tiruin on June 24, 2017, 02:49:59 pm
Sorry hon, it's not your fault/personal. Lenglon/webadict know the tip of the iceberg on this one.:-\ :-[ :'(
Yeah <_< I'm only feeling it thus far.
But please keep on playing. :-X
Tir- You ARE misreadingEither it's me connecting sentences that are individually isolated (like how I went all Dx from Shakerag), or that that one sentence is fully unattached to the previous sentences.
A-also I may be publicly misreading it.
Yeah let's go with that ._.
Anyway we've got a few claims still not had.
Jack A T
TolyK
TBF
4mask
hector(?)
Tea
TolyK Im joining your chat att.Tell him everything.
Post by: Tea on June 24, 2017, 03:48:35 pm
My role name is a villainous character with a time-related motif. I was hoping I'd end up being town due to reverse psychology and it worked XD
My role design is pretty trolly, in that all I can really do while alive is evade death/some bad things happening to me but that I do have a couple of fun post-death 1-shots.
I have a 1-shot auto that reloads every cycle that lets me revive.
My only night action (can use once per night) lets me hide.
When I die I have a 1-shot that lets me PM Webadict a vote, as well as a 1-shot kill action.
I decided not to hide N1 cuz I figured scum probably wouldn't see me as enough of a threat to target me w/ nasty things, and if someone were to try to kill me I thought that'd be useful information. This unfortunately resulted in me getting my vote stolen, which pissed me off p badly cuz (1) I could've prevented it and (2) having no vote pretty well cripples me since I can't do anything fun until I die, and why would scum ever bother killing someone that has no vote. I didn't hide N2 because I hoped I'd get my vote back. Having now claimed it will take some convincing me for me to not just hide forever.
Post by: Lenglon on June 24, 2017, 03:56:29 pm
Post by: Tea on June 24, 2017, 04:04:32 pm
But for the other half, hide is so early in night action order I don't feel like there's a ton of downside to having claimed. FoU did have a counter against revive roles but I'm pretty paranoid that there's scum out there that can revive/fake it because lots of people have been able to and I wanted to make that known.
Post by: Persus13 on June 24, 2017, 04:05:49 pm
Post by: Lenglon on June 24, 2017, 04:08:04 pm
Tir has that ability now.
Post by: Jack A T on June 24, 2017, 04:11:22 pm
I am...
The Ross Rifle (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ross_rifle), If The Ross Rifle Was Loaded With Those # Gloves That Tiruin Has Seen That Get Used In Stadiums, And Was Also A BYOR 0 Role That Distributed Random Useless Powers.
Was intended to be my version of a pseudo-Shakeragian role. Pre-game chat happened, and a chunk was added in the middle.
I have three powers:
*A night action: the rifle. Fires ammunition at targets.
*An auto: the ammunition. Let's me select the type of ammo I fire. Each ammo type is a 1-shot power I grant to my targets.
*A day action: an upgrade system. I can upgrade either the rifle or ammo each day.
Ammo types:
*Foam fingers: 1-shot day action. User gives target extra vote.
*Foam hats: 1-shot auto. Next time holder is targeted, all actions targeting them are randomized.
*Vuvuzelas: 1-shot night. User redirects all actions to themself.
*Used beer cans (gained D2): 1-shot night. User disables target's autos for a cycle.
I started out with one target per night and 3 types of ammo. Days 1 and 3, I upgraded my rifle, each time increasing my maximum targets by one. (I wanted a Mk. III rifle, as it isn't a proper Ross rifle until it jams all the time.) Day 2, I upgraded my ammunition.
N1, I gave Tiruin and 4mask fingers, as both came off well the day before and because I saw fingers as the least disruptive power in the set. N2, beer cans for Lengrag and Persus: the rest of the Fallacy wagon. Beer cans just because, well, I have a WWI rifle that fires beer cans.
I am willing to support Everybody Wins, though a bit skeptical.
Post by: flabort on June 24, 2017, 07:42:58 pm
Alright, here's my Initial Plan to potentially make everyone win.Um. If it were possible to change monster within to a non-mafia kill, that would be good and a faster win, BUT I guess that's not possible. I'm game for this, although it means everyone town who already died doesn't win. Obviously I can't use my copy of the power, so you'd be able to copy it from me over and over, but there's the flaw of what happens when it comes my turn to be converted?
Based on the info that:
- MAFIA has a 1-shot "mafiakill" called "Monster Within" that converts folks to Mafia. (This info is from Flabort).
- I have an ability to copy abilities.
- I have an ability to distribute abilities.
Requirements:
- Cooperation between town and mafia. (Yeah, I know. But seriously, read it out, then please note the pitfalls as you see them.)
THE PLAN.
I make multiple copies of the "Monster Within" one-shot Mafiakill (thus making it multi-shot), and give ONE COPY to a mafia player ("M").
"M" uses "Monster Within" on a townie (A) that isn't me. M dies, A becomes mafia. I give a copy of "Monster Within" to A.
"A" uses "Monster Within" on a townie (B) that isn't me. A dies, B becomes mafia. I give a copy of "Monster Within" to B.
This goes on as all the remaining townies (except for me) are converted to Mafia (and all-but-the-last-one die).
Finally, final Mafia player uses "Monster Within" on me. I become mafia, no more town are left, and everyone currently alive (as well as FoU) wins.
In preparation, I'm testing Flabort, Tiruin, and Lengrag. I'd strongly suggest one of the Lengrag target me or Jack and join our little chat, but that's not completely necessary.
Unvote, Vote no lynch
I will support this plan, IF Tea is the first one converted. The Monster Within ability's wording gives me an idea, so I am asking Webadict about it, but I think it adds the role to the targets role. I don't know for sure, which is why I have decided to ask for clarification, but given Tea's claimed revive ability, we could revive them, and pass on their revive to the player who they convert. If that is successful, we could modify the plan to convert you sooner, and then duplicate your duplication ability. If it doesn't work, we proceed as you planned it.
I remain skeptical, but I am in support of this plan.
Post by: hector13 on June 24, 2017, 07:44:19 pm
Post by: Lenglon on June 24, 2017, 07:54:14 pm
Are we seriously going to be shooting for this everyone wins bullshit?If it will work? yes. what's wrong?
Post by: flabort on June 24, 2017, 07:59:19 pm
Of course, if there is any indication that it will not work, even if it is already underway, I will definitely want to put the brakes on it and resume normal play, but right now I think it can.Are we seriously going to be shooting for this everyone wins bullshit?If it will work? yes. what's wrong?
Also, I just realized, I do not need to be included in being converted to mafia, due to my extra, alternate win condition that is a part of my Heroes ability. This way, TolyK can be the last one converted, and even though at that point mafia will be equal to or outnumber town, since I will have an ability from him and anyone else left alive I will still be town but will win too.
Post by: hector13 on June 24, 2017, 08:21:46 pm
Kinda defeats the point of a competitive game if no cunt loses.Are we seriously going to be shooting for this everyone wins bullshit?If it will work? yes. what's wrong?
I mean if we all just in'd and webadict said "well done you win!" we wouldn't have wasted the last two weeks fucking about talking past each other.
Post by: Jack A T on June 24, 2017, 08:27:14 pm
Post by: Tea on June 24, 2017, 08:30:00 pm
Post by: hector13 on June 24, 2017, 08:34:05 pm
That's the point. It is fun to win by beating the other side. It is a great accomplishment to win by beating the game itself.
Yeah, 10 minds against 1. Sounds challenging as fuck.
Post by: Lenglon on June 24, 2017, 09:56:22 pm
Post by: Tiruin on June 24, 2017, 10:49:49 pm
Honestly it's like half because I feel left out/envious that everyone else seems to have all this interesting shit and I'm just here like, to hide or not to hide?? So maybe someone has a thought on an interaction that WOULD be useful between our roles?Uh o-o 'hide' is a conveniently personal action, and...well, we have a bulwark of roles that stops killing and now relies on heavy day play. Mine (Lenglag's), yours, etc.
Also I'm all for everyone wins (Just please make me a Katamari D:<)
I-I'd actually like to be the FIRST to be hit with that. Regardless of my alignment, Lenglon's power makes me conjoin to the TARGET's alignment (we all become one; and the actor becomes the target's alignment; we can all act together)Are we seriously going to be shooting for this everyone wins bullshit?If it will work? yes. what's wrong?
Problem is that the dead can't win? As in, there's at least 2 alignments [3 if you include third-party unknowns like SK/Cult/Others that really aren't part of the Town/Maffy wincon], and in landing at the end on any one of the end-alignments [sans cult since they're like town/mafia themed wincons; SK is all 'kill everyone else' I think, so if everyone then becomes an SK then...that'd be hilarious?], and what I mean is that there have been people killed who were both Town and Mafia.
So technically everyone can't win and I'm nitpicking :P
That's the point. It is fun to win by beating the other side. It is a great accomplishment to win by beating the game itself.Yeaaaaa you worded my thoughts exactly better than I did!
But...yeah. As Lenglon/Shakerag can backup--please use it on me :P
Also I've no idea if Lenglon/Shakerag should be the first recipients of said Alignment-Katamari//Switch and die plan, because given Shakerag's D: ness, andme seeing the role exactly inasfar as I can...I don't really see what's gotten nerfed other than 'lacking miller ability'.
Do you think it would be beneficial to roleclaim that role, Lenglon/Shakerag?
Post by: hector13 on June 24, 2017, 10:55:46 pm
Post by: Tiruin on June 24, 2017, 10:58:55 pm
Why is proving you're smarter than the mod entertaining?Actually, it is proving smarter than uncertainty.
See it from my viewpoint--NOBODY knows my alignment, yet they're ready to trust me [/applicable to the person STARTING the plan anyway]; now this is rather more playing against one's uncertainty, doubts, and pseudo-paranoia, because you have to TRUST the other dude in doing this thing for ALL of you dudes to WIN.
Some people may have differing alignments and winconditions; they won't obviously go overt in this. It is also to plan against these kinds of things that makes it pretty precarious in turn. If ever the plan fails on the route; it will also be entertaining because we've to work with what had happened.
Why I'm proposing targeting me with the copy/recharge is because I *CAN* actually be a Katamari-alignment ball, because I can be counter-confirmed by Lenglon/Shakerag. Instead of whomever has to out-claim that Monster Within.
Post by: Tiruin on June 24, 2017, 11:11:54 pm
Toly thinks the mafia team is FoU/4mask/DarkStar. I think it's more likely to be FoU/4mask/TBF mostly because DarkStar's treatment of 4mask D1 was a lot more negative than I think would be a good move for them. Anyone else have thoughts?How do you know this? o_O [did I miss something from TolyK?]
It's the initiative of personal/individual spirit to CHOOSE what to do with your abilities.Kinda defeats the point of a competitive game if no cunt loses.Are we seriously going to be shooting for this everyone wins bullshit?If it will work? yes. what's wrong?
I mean if we all just in'd and webadict said "well done you win!" we wouldn't have wasted the last two weeks fucking about talking past each other.
It is the initiative of the people to CHOOSE what to act upon to create our future. It is the social conditioning underlying the lynch and why it is needed to be done to do so.
Also I'm actually the Spirit of Mafia Gaming, so yeah I'm all for this. Balance and all that fun \o/
I mean TolyK could be an SK for all we know because nobody tried investigating him!
Ninjedit: I just realized it'd be better if I was selected last >_> because I can just SIT HERE and be a WALL.
Post by: hector13 on June 24, 2017, 11:16:39 pm
If you commit to "everybody wins" you cease to give a fuck about your wincon because you're working with the players you're meant to be playing against, you cease to give a fuck about everyone's alignment because, hey everybody is going to win so what the fuck does it matter?
My issue is thus: webadict gave us some rules to play the game (alignment, wincon, and role) we play the game as it's meant to be played. Then, partway through, some of us decide that those rules don't matter, they're going to try to hack the game and break it instead, because somehow that's more fun than doing what they literally signed up for.
I don't play mafia to prove I'm smarter than other people. I play the game because, funnily enough, I want to play the game.
Post by: Tiruin on June 24, 2017, 11:23:27 pm
If you commit to "everybody wins" you cease to give a fuck about your wincon because you're working with the players you're meant to be playing against, you cease to give a fuck about everyone's alignment because, hey everybody is going to win so what the fuck does it matter?You...are aware that some players can lie about this right?
I mean to give my honest opinion--I AM all in for this, but I've noted recently (at least when the roleclaims started rolling) was that too much high-poweredness with at least 2 Mafia makes it a very precarious game; especially with ALL DEM INSPECTS/Revives, which brings in the idea that there ARE third-parties. It just so happens that said third-parties aren't Lenglag/me.
So, there's that issue. You want to play the game because you want to play the game; play the game as normal then, because TolyK's plan is a very slow snowball effect. It'll take NIGHTS at least, around Night 10, to even get this rolling right.
My issue is thus: webadict gave us some rules to play the game (alignment, wincon, and role) we play the game as it's meant to be played. Then, partway through, some of us decide that those rules don't matter, they're going to try to hack the game and break it instead, because somehow that's more fun than doing what they literally signed up for.So like, we're all veteran Mafia players. We all know WINCON above everything [even friendships because even if the game ends, we'll be friends :3 {super sorry Lenglon/Shakerag, it's just...the emotional attacks weren't in context at all. Yeah frustration, but blaming the other person with a lack of details...doesn't.}
Point being, I can see MANY people are for the plan. But I am suspicious that there will be kinks in the way for its fruition.
You going against it really pokes my alignment reinforcement though :P so that's one less dude on my list.
Well...on the Cardcaptor's list. <_< I'm just...a political wall.
*AHEM* [/vaguepoliticalpun]
Yeah.
It's actually committing to everyone wins because it is wincon aligned :P
But let's ask.
Webadict: Can a Mafia convert to a Town alignment and vice versa? May we know the situations wherein alignment conversion will fail because of incompatible alignments (If any; and if any, can you state them?)
Post by: Tea on June 24, 2017, 11:31:15 pm
Toly thinks the mafia team is FoU/4mask/DarkStar. I think it's more likely to be FoU/4mask/TBF mostly because DarkStar's treatment of 4mask D1 was a lot more negative than I think would be a good move for them. Anyone else have thoughts?How do you know this? o_O [did I miss something from TolyK?]
Tiruin: You've claimed that you were blocked but (according to 4mask) I saw you act. At the very least, I'd like a full description of what you did last night.This post, among others, leads me to believe that TDS and 4mask are mafia.
Tiruin: Who do you think is most likely mafia?
Post by: Tea on June 24, 2017, 11:33:07 pm
Post by: hector13 on June 24, 2017, 11:36:16 pm
It is quite difficult for me to be motivated to play the game normally when this nonsense is being mooted and apparently accepted as the way forward, regardless of how slowly it'll roll on. Some of you are probably genuinely committed to this, which means you have no interest in figuring out alignments, which means we'll essentially have two games going on of all you with your crotches in your faces and the rest of us wondering what the point of trying anymore is.
My interest now is solely I n arguing over this, rather than alignment seeking stuff. That interest would be there regardless of alignment, because "everybody wins" fundamentally goes against what I find entertaining about mafia.
I played one game of mafia in which everybody won, and (sorry flabort) it was the most unsatisfying game of mafia I think I will ever play.
Post by: Tiruin on June 25, 2017, 12:35:21 am
I am very much aware that people can be lying about their intentions, which is all the more worrying that you guys seem quite content to put your genitals in each other's mouths, come what may. Pun intended.:V
Pun not taken.
You're focusing too much on the impression.
Also you gave me culture shock.
Toly thinks the mafia team is FoU/4mask/DarkStar. I think it's more likely to be FoU/4mask/TBF mostly because DarkStar's treatment of 4mask D1 was a lot more negative than I think would be a good move for them. Anyone else have thoughts?How do you know this? o_O [did I miss something from TolyK?]There's TDS but I'm still referring to my earlier list >_> There is SOMEONE being covert, as I assume 3 Mafia.Tiruin: You've claimed that you were blocked but (according to 4mask) I saw you act. At the very least, I'd like a full description of what you did last night.This post, among others, leads me to believe that TDS and 4mask are mafia.
Tiruin: Who do you think is most likely mafia?
Someone that isn't 4mask.
Who is most likely Mafia. :v [4mask]It is quite difficult for me to be motivated to play the game normally when this nonsense is being mooted and apparently accepted as the way forward, regardless of how slowly it'll roll on. Some of you are probably genuinely committed to this, which means you have no interest in figuring out alignments, which means we'll essentially have two games going on of all you with your crotches in your faces and the rest of us wondering what the point of trying anymore is.That's TolyK for you. We're not him :PMy interest now is solely I n arguing over this, rather than alignment seeking stuff. That interest would be there regardless of alignment, because "everybody wins" fundamentally goes against what I find entertaining about mafia.So this one game represents all others? :P
I played one game of mafia in which everybody won, and (sorry flabort) it was the most unsatisfying game of mafia I think I will ever play.
Seriously, context. This is ALL THE MORE ENTERTAINING because while I am being overtly open to the plan, I'm all [THERES SPIES THERE] in people trying to ruin it. It paves an open path for others to know what actions do what, and the knowledge of all these massclaim-inferences tell me that there's a gordian knot of fun in doing that.
So therein it's not that it became more 'bland' because of ANXIETY [because anxiety is, actually, a futuristic thing], it's that there IS a path that people know the end goal of.
Getting to that area, anywhere in between, is the fun.
I mean, it's the journey that counts too.
It's like you've caught up too much on the impression :v
Thanks Tea; I'd LOVE FOR TOLYK to expound on that N2 thingy to me though :V He didn't say nuffin! (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164260.msg7494151#msg7494151)
Post by: hector13 on June 25, 2017, 01:02:53 am
Anyway, I'm not sure what you mean by impression; I am mostly worried about my enjoyment of the game (which was rapidly approaching nil, perhaps moving slowly away from it for the moment) and a repeat of the unsatisfying nature of flabort's "everybody wins", which was unsatisfying by dint of everyone winning. The journey for me will
The biggest issues with the two plans we have is:
Katamari: scum: "let's have all the townies be one thing so we can kill them all with one action"
Monster Within: takes too pissing long, scum win, which goes against my current wincon.
I mean this all kinda boils down to what y'all find entertaining. For me, this is not, hence my ultra-butthurt and incessant whining on the matter.
Post by: Tiruin on June 25, 2017, 01:30:52 am
Katamari: scum: "let's have all the townies be one thing so we can kill them all with one action"Hence why I suggested me going first, because I'll startbeing an armored katamari :P
But yeah <_< The long way is I'll be last and I'll just sit here and be a wall.
So are we voting for 4mask or not? He's coincidentally outed as scum thanks to both Flabort, and Persus for quoting it and connecting the dots.
Also goodness I killed that quote back there.
Monster Within: takes too pissing long, scum win, which goes against my current wincon.It's more like making a goal in the future, wherein any/all folks who can get it accomplished will help. Others will form a defensive perimeter around. :P
I mean this all kinda boils down to what y'all find entertaining. For me, this is not, hence my ultra-butthurt and incessant whining on the matter.
Spoiler: Fixed it (click to show/hide)
Post by: webadict on June 25, 2017, 07:33:39 am
Webadict: Can a Mafia convert to a Town alignment and vice versa? May we know the situations wherein alignment conversion will fail because of incompatible alignments (If any; and if any, can you state them?)Anti-Town alignments cannot be changed. Town may convert to Mafia, but Mafia cannot convert to Town. This is because Anti-Town players (Mafia, Sk, Cult, Lyncher, and Assassin) have the problem of information not present to the uninformed majority.
Also, because I have no idea why you think I would put an everyone wins condition in a BYOR. I will absolutely guarantee that there is no such thing available in this game.
Post by: Tiruin on June 25, 2017, 07:54:44 am
Also totally lynch 4mask dudes. Ya dun wan be Maffya. :I
Post by: Lenglon on June 25, 2017, 08:16:05 am
Tiruin was just modconfirmed to be town. I was just modconfirmed to have started the game as town.
If Tir was anti-town she couldn't have the ability to swap roles with me pre-fusion then use the fuse to change alignments to town.
Post by: Tiruin on June 25, 2017, 08:21:38 am
Post by: hector13 on June 25, 2017, 09:38:54 am
...
Tiruin was just modconfirmed to be town. I was just modconfirmed to have started the game as town.
If Tir was anti-town she couldn't have the ability to swap roles with me pre-fusion then use the fuse to change alignments to town.
So you can prove that the ability isn't a red herring for you, and that the mafia/anti-town don't have role (notably not alignment, byraway) swapping abilities?
Post by: hector13 on June 25, 2017, 10:00:20 am
That last part doesn't make sense, mornings. Yas.
Makes more sense as a question directed at webadict anyway:
webadict: if an anti-town faction has received an alignment-changing ability like Lenglon's fusion ability - which is claimed to change the user's alignment to the target's alignment - what would happen if said anti-town faction used it on a town player?
Could any anti-town faction/player start this game with an alignment-swapping ability?
Post by: Persus13 on June 25, 2017, 11:41:48 am
This could be useful to know, since Flabort's claiming he recieved a mafia kill that can swap roles....
Tiruin was just modconfirmed to be town. I was just modconfirmed to have started the game as town.
If Tir was anti-town she couldn't have the ability to swap roles with me pre-fusion then use the fuse to change alignments to town.
So you can prove that the ability isn't a red herring for you, and that the mafia/anti-town don't have role (notably not alignment, byraway) swapping abilities?
Post by: hector13 on June 25, 2017, 12:00:08 pm
1-shot, mafiakill (gained N2): Monster Within: Convert target to your alignment, if successful you die and flip as their role + alignment, they gain this role.
Just as a reminder, this is flabort's claimed ability there.
So... my interpretation is that it converts the "kill" to mafia, while the user dies and flips as the role and alignment of the target. The target gains the role, presumably meaning that particular 1-shot mafiakill.
At the risk of pointing out the obvious, this would only make sense as something for an individual player to do if they retained their original alignment, as a mafia player choosing to use this and no longer being part of the mafia would be quite silly. Except if the mafia is losing, and they decide they don't want to be on the losing team no more.
Also we may need to figure out how this interacts with revives/resurrections.
Anyway, given that webadict seems as disinclined as I do for an "everyone wins" scenario, this particular ability feels more and more likely to be made up.
Post by: hector13 on June 25, 2017, 12:07:32 pm
EBWOP
That last part doesn't make sense, mornings. Yas.
Makes more sense as a question directed at webadict anyway:
webadict: if an anti-town faction has received an alignment-changing ability like Lenglon's fusion ability - which is claimed to change the user's alignment to the target's alignment - what would happen if said anti-town faction used it on a town player?
Could any anti-town faction/player start this game with an alignment-swapping ability?
Poor wording on that second one, again...
Could an anti-town faction/player start the game with an ability that makes the user's alignment change to their target's alignment?
Post by: TolyK on June 25, 2017, 12:31:34 pm
Post by: flabort on June 25, 2017, 04:55:17 pm
...
Also, because I have no idea why you think I would put an everyone wins condition in a BYOR. I will absolutely guarantee that there is no such thing available in this game.
4maskwolf
Well, I am kinda checking Flabort's claim "right now" (i.e. in this current action cycle :P)It's truthful. Do let me know when you get the results, since I assume you already put the action in.
Post by: TolyK on June 25, 2017, 05:13:47 pm
Lenglon, I invited you. Waitin on Wuba now.
Post by: flabort on June 25, 2017, 05:35:46 pm
Oh, you'll know.That... sounds more ominous than you probably meant it. Unless it was a threat.
Post by: Jack A T on June 25, 2017, 06:15:42 pm
I've been holding this case/vote back for a while, waiting to get a key answer without tainting the response (TolyK can confirm this). It's increasingly clear that I will not be answered within any reasonable time frame.
TheDarkStar is my top suspect, but I would be happy with a 4maskwolf lynch.
Throughout D1, TDS made (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164260.msg7471863#msg7471863) statements indicating (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164260.msg7474669#msg7474669) that he suspected (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164260.msg7475707#msg7475707) FallacyofUrist (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164260.msg7476251#msg7476251). Caveats at times (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164260.msg7475721#msg7475721), and TDS's statements were pretty light at times. Alright. TDS laid his vote on TheBiggerFish (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164260.msg7472476#msg7472476) and let it sit there for the day. In general, a pretty good set of moves for scum: away from the scum-favouring lynch that has mass support, a bit of distance from the partner, and a credible (though TBF) vote away from the attention-grabbing wagons. If it wasn't for D2 and the flip, I wouldn't suspect him.
D2, TDS started with a quick FoS (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164260.msg7480817#msg7480817) and vote (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164260.msg7480920#msg7480920) on flabort. Reason given: flabort targeted doll, and doll was a townie who suspected flabort of being a redirector. flabort had, of course, repeatedly stated strong suspicion of doll the previous day, right up to the end. That flabort would target doll is far from shocking. The malicious block (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164260.msg7480920#msg7480920) TDS guessed happened wasn't even possible. TDS's case against flabort was a baseless case to lynch someone who looked like an easy target, propped up with a mention of investigative powers as a substitute for reasoning.
After that fizzled, TDS did not vote. He did not vote for Fallacy, who he said he suspected. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164260.msg7483764#msg7483764) He completely abandoned the TBF push. Now, he was clearly busy for the rest of the day, but the complete abandonment of his D1 vote is strange. The D2 behaviour is scummy, and the full set of behaviours work quite well with Fallacy as a teammate.
I'm also a bit troubled by TDS's claim, which seems to flip between watcher and tracker at will (the tracker result against flabort, the watcher result against Tiruin with the declaration that he was watching flabort N1, the later tracker claim...), hence my last question to him. This is why I held back: I wanted an untainted response. I did not get a response, and I cannot hold back forever.
My 4mask read is quite similar to my TDS read. The two played in quite similar ways: reasonable but scum-consistent D1 play, dropped cases and low-effort baffling new ones D2, strange behaviour beyond. I find TDS's flabort rush D2 more troubling than 4mask's FoU NYAHvote, though, and while Monster Within makes me want to see 4mask's claim, I'm less convinced by it than most: that wasn't just some line about monsters in the breadcrumb, but Nietzsche's most famous quote. The connection is quite possible, but there are a lot of places that breadcrumb could reasonably lead and there is a lot of unclaimed flavour.
His in-thread behaviour alone, though, is troubling, and I would be happy with a 4mask lynch.
Post by: TheDarkStar on June 25, 2017, 08:25:40 pm
TDS: what we have would not be balanced if it was on a single person. we can only do what we can because of the fusion. it's a combination of two roles, not just one.
That makes a bit more sense. It still seems just a bit cult-ish. Reading through what Tiruin has said, though, Shakerag got your alignment (since you started out with the merging ability, right, Lenglon?) so Shakerag is more like a reformed third party. IDK how that would work with what webadict has said about third-party conversions though.
Webadict: Can a Mafia convert to a Town alignment and vice versa? May we know the situations wherein alignment conversion will fail because of incompatible alignments (If any; and if any, can you state them?)Anti-Town alignments cannot be changed. Town may convert to Mafia, but Mafia cannot convert to Town. This is because Anti-Town players (Mafia, Sk, Cult, Lyncher, and Assassin) have the problem of information not present to the uninformed majority.
Also, because I have no idea why you think I would put an everyone wins condition in a BYOR. I will absolutely guarantee that there is no such thing available in this game.
...alright, so there is some reason to keep playing the game, assuming there are evil third parties (which is nearly certain in a BYOR). Here's why the mafia conversion plan will fail, then:
1. Evil third parties can't win with this plan, so they will actively try to kill whoever there is that keeps the plan going.
2. Evil third parties usually have a LYLO breaker, whether it be vote control or multiple kills. This plan would basically hand a win to them.
3. Depending on what the role does to third parties, it could end the chain by simply killing that third party and removing them from the game.
TheDarkStar: Have some stuff written out on you on my end, but first I need answers to a few questions. You went through D2 suspecting Fallacy, but not voting for him (or anyone). Why? In addition, what led you to drop the TBF case?
Finally, to be absolutely clear, your action claim is that you are a watcher who watched ??? last night and flabort the night before, seeing who visited them?
Please answer my questions for once.
Whoops, this got buried.
First, I watch myself and track other people. iirc I've said that certain people were visited by other people because I tracked the person who made the action. As for Fallacy, I was going to say more stuff but the day ended before I expected it to. I'll get back to you on TBF (because it's been long enough that I don't remember much on my case on him other than that he was being lazy), but I haven't seen him post much lately.
PPE: and there's more stuff posted that I haven't had a chance to read yet.
Post by: Tiruin on June 25, 2017, 08:46:48 pm
I'm...kinda thinking that another person lynch may also be okay today since we've at least somehow probably maybe more likely confirmed 4mask as scum?
Here are various responses to stuff:I can pretty much confirm Lenglag and it's not really feel-y culty :P It's more feely PROTECTIONISM [just like the name of dat political role], although it's...curious why you say cult-ish?TDS: what we have would not be balanced if it was on a single person. we can only do what we can because of the fusion. it's a combination of two roles, not just one.
That makes a bit more sense. It still seems just a bit cult-ish. Reading through what Tiruin has said, though, Shakerag got your alignment (since you started out with the merging ability, right, Lenglon?) so Shakerag is more like a reformed third party. IDK how that would work with what webadict has said about third-party conversions though.
And nope--Lenglon gets SHAKERAG's alignment, not the other way around. I do believe Lenglon started the game as Town due to her behavior
Quote
...alright, so there is some reason to keep playing the game, assuming there are evil third parties (which is nearly certain in a BYOR). Here's why the mafia conversion plan will fail, then:Can...you expound on that one statement you have ._.
1. Evil third parties can't win with this plan, so they will actively try to kill whoever there is that keeps the plan going.
2. Evil third parties usually have a LYLO breaker, whether it be vote control or multiple kills. This plan would basically hand a win to them.
3. Depending on what the role does to third parties, it could end the chain by simply killing that third party and removing them from the game.
Quote
So...um, what happened with 4mask and yourself that made him see me and you as Town and you...something?
First, I watch myself and track other people. iirc I've said that certain people were visited by other people because I tracked the person who made the action. As for Fallacy, I was going to say more stuff but the day ended before I expected it to. I'll get back to you on TBF (because it's been long enough that I don't remember much on my case on him other than that he was being lazy), but I haven't seen him post much lately.
PPE: and there's more stuff posted that I haven't had a chance to read yet.
Was it a day thingy or night thingy? Because I feel like it's a N2 thing but the wording is feeling strange (and/or my parser is broken)
After that fizzled, TDS did not vote. He did not vote for Fallacy, who he said he suspected. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164260.msg7483764#msg7483764) He completely abandoned the TBF push. Now, he was clearly busy for the rest of the day, but the complete abandonment of his D1 vote is strange. The D2 behaviour is scummy, and the full set of behaviours work quite well with Fallacy as a teammate.I was biased in seeing TDS at D1 because I *KNEW* he was winning it for Bay12 on DCSS Roguelike Tournament :P
*cough*
Although what had happened to you, D1, TDS?
Can you please explain your activity?
Post by: hector13 on June 25, 2017, 11:15:26 pm
Post by: Jack A T on June 25, 2017, 11:36:56 pm
First, I watch myself and track other people.TheDarkStar: Thank you for the response. It's much more helpful than I expected.
Would you be so kind as to explain the following:
Tiruin:To be absolutely clear: As the basis of a Tiruin vote, you claimed today to have watched Lenglon-Shakerag and not seen Tiruin visit them.
I watched Lenglon-Shakerag last night and you did not visit them. The only people who visited them were themselves. Explain, please.
For that matter, please explain the following:
EBWOP: I also watched flabort n1 and you didn't visit him either.To be absolutely clear: To support your Tiruin vote, you claimed to have watched flabort N1 and not seen Tiruin visit him.
Why did you push a fraudulent case against Tiruin?
Post by: Jack A T on June 26, 2017, 12:43:58 am
Post by: Lenglon on June 26, 2017, 02:08:58 am
Post by: Lenglon on June 26, 2017, 02:10:23 am
Post by: Jack A T on June 26, 2017, 02:32:43 am
Post by: TheDarkStar on June 26, 2017, 01:29:08 pm
Here are my night actions:
n1: tracked flabort, flabort targeted doll. (I was targeted by Lenglon-Shakerag)
n2: tracked Lenglon-Shakerag, my target targeted Lenglon-Shakerag (according to 4mask I targeted Tiruin). (I was targeted by Lenglon-Shakerag and 4maskwolf)
My comment earlier today was because I confused who gets tracked (someone else) and who gets watched (myself) with my role. (If I haven't done so already, I'll unvote).
Post by: Jack A T on June 26, 2017, 02:09:20 pm
Post by: TheDarkStar on June 26, 2017, 02:33:18 pm
Post by: Persus13 on June 26, 2017, 08:43:32 pm
Pretty sure Everyone Wins is impossible simply because multiple town players have died and would lose if everyone converted to mafia. Secondly, the mafia convert version is going to be pointless at any rate if 4maskwolf is lynched and the theory that flabort's claimed mafia ability is from him. At any rate there's too many unknowns at stake and I don't trust webadict to make something like that possible
So... I guess we weren't permitted to talk at night, but the GM left the thread unlocked. I'd get into speculation as to why, especially considering the way Wuba phrased "if you are not allowed to talk at night", but that would probably be an unhelpful conversation. I didn't see what Tiruin or Persus had said, because they had edited away their posts on Wuba's request when I looked - probably just "why is this thread unlocked at night", like I think I did.Webadict doesn't lock his threads at night. He didn't lock it in at least last BYOR too. My post was basically telling you that you shouldn't be posting in the thread.
I'm looking for things to probe about, but the problem is that TBF and 4maskwolf are the two people I'd like most to hear from and TBF hasn't posted at all (Webadict claims he's having posting issues), and 4maskwolf hasn't voted since the train. I am pretty suspicious of TDS as well though the inconsistencies Jack mentioned, plus his attacks on Shakelon come off funny.
Hector13: There were two kills that were unclaimed N1. You appear to be the only target of a kill N2. If two people targeted you with kills, would your revive still worked?
Post by: hector13 on June 26, 2017, 08:46:51 pm
Post by: Persus13 on June 26, 2017, 08:52:09 pm
I imagine so, yes. Seems like an odd question to ask shortly before the deadline.I've been trying to figure out why there was only one attempted kill last night. I also need to reengage myself with the game, by asking questions. You don't seem to like the Everyone Wins idea as well. Has that changed your read of TolyK or anyone else at all?
Post by: hector13 on June 26, 2017, 09:11:38 pm
Tolyk not having used their vote for almost the entire game is bothersome for me, the vote is a townie's voice, so it implies to me they have some other means of achieving their wincon, whatever it may be. I'm inclined to think they may also be benign third-party.
Jack and Tiruin seem to derive some entertainment from breaking games wide open, so the former's tacit approval and the latter's attempts to logic their way through it maybe aren't all that telling.
Flabort kinda bothers me, but that's for things outside of the everybody wins stuff, like the "Monster Within" ability claim.
Post by: webadict on June 26, 2017, 09:28:01 pm
webadict: if an anti-town faction has received an alignment-changing ability like Lenglon's fusion ability - which is claimed to change the user's alignment to the target's alignment - what would happen if said anti-town faction used it on a town player?All alignment changing abilities (Whether changed by the user or used on the anti-Town player) fail when targeting an anti-Town alignment.
Could any anti-town faction/player start this game with an alignment-swapping ability?
Any player can start with any ability. That's kinda the nature of the game.
Apologies for being here late. I'll wrap up the Day.
Post by: webadict on June 26, 2017, 10:18:52 pm
4maskwolf has been lynched.
4maskwolf was He Who Fights Monsters (mafia).
TheBiggerFish has been modkilled.
TheBiggerFish was a Flailing Penguin (mafia).
Vote Count
------------------------
4maskwolf - Tiruin, Persus13, flabort,
flabort -
hector13 -
Jack A T -
Lenglon-Shakerag - Shakerag,
Persus13 -
Tea -
TheBiggerFish - Tea,
TheDarkStar - Jack A T,
Tiruin - Lenglon,
TolyK -
No Lynch - TolyK,
Not Voting - hector13, 4maskwolf, TheBiggerFish, TheDarkStar,
6 To Hammer. Day Ends on Monday, June 26th around 8:00 PM CST. There is no Extension available.
It is now Night. Night ends Wednesday, June 28th around 8 PM CST.
Quote from: Current Rules
Survival - The Mafiakill does not count toward the 1 action per Phase limit.
Quote
He Who Fights Monsters
(Auto) Antihero: You appear as Town to inspections. Your targets appear as Mafia to inspections.
(Night) Deflection [target1] [target2]: Redirect target1 to target2.
(Night) He Who Protects Monsters [target]: You protect the target.
(1-Shot, Mafiakill) The Monster Within [target]: Convert the target to your alignment. If this action succeeds, you die and give the player this role. You roleflip as the converted player’s role and alignment.
Quote
Flailing Penguin
You have no actions.
Post by: webadict on June 28, 2017, 08:28:40 pm
I'm not sure if you have. There's so little surety that you will even live through today.
We move our scene to that of the Town Square. Here we see the bodies of...
No. What happened here? Where are they? Where are Lenglon and Shakerag?! Where is Lenglon-Shakerag?!?
What is going on he--
*bzzzt*
Server: hi guys
Server: i forgot to do something before i left
Server: teehee
Game Mode has been changed to Creative-Spectator mode.
Server: see ya
Server: s
Server: u
Server: c
Server: k
Server: e
Server: r
Server: s
Server: !
... Let us see the finale.
Lenglon-Shakerag has been killed!
Lenglon-Shakerag cannot be found!
FallacyOfUrist reveals a hidden ability! The rules have changed!
Vote Count
------------------------
flabort -
hector13 -
Jack A T -
Persus13 -
Tea -
TheDarkStar -
Tiruin -
TolyK -
No Lynch -
Not Voting - Jack A T, TheDarkStar, Tiruin, Persus13, Tea, TolyK,
5 To Hammer. Day Ends on Monday, June 26th around 8:00 PM CST. There is an Extension available.
It is now Day.
Quote from: Current Rules
Creative - The next Mafia Player to die revives. This ability only triggers once per game.
Spectator - The Mafiakill is a Day action.
Quote from: Hidden ability
(1-Shot) Administrative Privileges: You gain this ability on death. Select two Game Modes. This combined Game Mode lasts for the rest of the game, and overrides your previous Game Mode(s).
Post by: hector13 on June 28, 2017, 08:42:53 pm
Also, Tiruin apparently stole my vote, so that's awesome. Understandable, but still totally awesome.
I'm inclined to see Persus and TDS as Town, Tiruin and flabsy as maybe-probably, Jack a little less so 'cause of their vote on TDS toward D2 end of which I was not a fan; watcher and fracker are, imo, very easy to mix up. Not so sure about Tolyk.
That leaves Tea, and I guess me, 'cause I haven't really done anything.
Post by: Persus13 on June 28, 2017, 08:51:33 pm
Players left:
Tiruin- Pretty confident she's town.
flabort (Lynched and Revived Day 1)- Probably town, or at least not Mafia-aligned.
hector13 (Died and Revived Night 2)- I haven't been able to get a good read on him. But he was targeted by a kill N2, and it was the only visible kill that night.
Jack A T - Reads town as usual, need to reread on him to make sure.
TolyK- I don't think TolyK is Mafia, but he could be a third party. I'll have to reread his reaction to webadict shooting down Everyone Wins to solidify my read on him.
Tea - I can't remember anything except they were also being frustrated by this game. I'll need to fix that
TheDarkStar- His interactions with 4maskwolf and TheBiggerFish seemed off, I'll need to reread to put my finger on why. So as he probably figured out by now, I hit him with Jack's oneshot last night
Well, I have a lot of rereading to do. See you on the other side.
Post by: hector13 on June 28, 2017, 08:53:56 pm
PPE: Persus: what makes you think flabort is town?
Tiruin: this presuming you were the vote stealing person, why flabort and myself?
Post by: Persus13 on June 28, 2017, 08:56:57 pm
Quote from: hector13 link=topic=164260.msg7497975#msg7497975 date=1498701236
PPE: [b
PPE: [b
Persus[/b]: what makes you think flabort is town?I doubt he bussed his teammate.
Post by: hector13 on June 28, 2017, 08:58:04 pm
Post by: hector13 on June 28, 2017, 08:58:31 pm
Post by: Persus13 on June 28, 2017, 09:00:46 pm
Why not? 4mask did it to FoU when FoU was less than useless.4maskwolf was seen as pretty town in most people's eyes before Flabort and Shakelon voted him. Fallacy was suspicious to everyone.
Post by: flabort on June 28, 2017, 10:04:52 pm
Everyone, especially Webadict Waiting on Webadict to tell me about any abilities I may have gained. Until I get a response, I'm not assuming anything, but I am theorizing that it's possible that I was blocked? No, blocks would not say "your action has failed", iirc.
TheDarkStar I have to take the time to re-read what you've done and haven't done.
Tiruin Well, with 4mask flipping with the abilities I was suspicious you had, you're pretty much in the clear in my eyes.
Post by: Tea on June 28, 2017, 10:35:58 pm
My view of the game state:
TolyK - if this dude's scum with FoU my mind will explode.
Tiruin - Lengrag said so + her interactions with TBF/4mask led me to believe this anyways
hector13 - very probable friendly neighbor; also spent D1 pushing, like, only FoU and TBF, and doesn't even remember this well enough to feel like he's done anything this game which is not the attitude of a suicidal busser like... ever?? the lengrag push D2 seems more paranoid town??
flabort (i need an inbetween green color) - he's wearing his heart on his sleeve and liveblogging all of his thoughts and mod questions....so just town, i think, having gotten some emotional space.
TheDarkStar - Ok like, I've only ever seen him be scum, and he tends to ignore the shit out of his buddies and push low hanging fruit. the fact that he legit wanted to kill TBF D1 when he could've put more effort into shading people like me/Pozzai makes me think he's town. if his post count was higher i feel like i'd be able to lock him either way tho; just can't quite get there as is.
Persus13 - May or may not have legit died n1; pretty good FoU interactions + very townsided assessments of the game throughout. For some reason I feel like it's more possible that role shenanigans would lead him to try to be the scum to make it to endgame than p much anyone, but I don't find it that likely.
Jack A T - TBH this is more of a lack of a townread than a scumread but I can see how pushing me D1 --> flabort ---> hopping on FoU after doll-Leng-etc. camp started pushing FoU is advantageous for scum. Him using a helpful night action on 4mask, who he had as null in a readlist mid-day1, is mildly indicative of them as partners. If there's super special TolyK reasons that I'm wrong on this I'd like to hear it.
vote Jack A T
PPE: Yo flabort, as previously claimed I am planning on hiding for the rest of the game unless someone convinces me not to. I did last night. It will also take at least 2 day phases worth of stuff to kill me FYI because I revive on death (also as previously claimed).
Also please do read my posts. Kinda feels like no one remembers them X_X.
Post by: Tea on June 28, 2017, 10:45:05 pm
Why not? 4mask did it to FoU when FoU was less than useless.4mask made this really big weird show of questioning FoU about the "nyah" thing before pretendvoting him, as well as paid no attention to FoU until literally mid-D2 despite him being a main wagon D1.
flabort's 4mask case was fine imo. Was there something that pinged you about it?
Post by: hector13 on June 28, 2017, 10:45:51 pm
Well that rather strongly hints at another scum player still in the game. From the flavour it also appears like the last one.
Also, Tiruin apparently stole my vote, so that's awesome. Understandable, but still totally awesome.
I'm inclined to see Persus and TDS as Town, Tiruin and flabsy as maybe-probably, Jack a little less so 'cause of their vote on TDS toward D2 end of which I was not a fan; watcher and fracker are, imo, very easy to mix up. Not so sure about Tolyk.
That leaves Tea, and I guess me, 'cause I haven't really done anything.
Okay, let's do this from the other side and see how we do, since I'm second-guessing myself on this from thinking who's town.
Flabort was D1 lynch, unlikely to be a bus that early. Has been collecting abilities from other players, one of which was the mafiakill of 4masks, implying he was acted on by the mafia, thus unlikely to be mafia. Could've been a means by which the scum make more copies of 1-shots, though, so perhaps not so solid a read.
Persus was an N1 NK, unlikely to be scum, as was I N2, the only one. Doesn't clear me as I could've been killed with the knowledge I had a revive to give me some towncred.
I would like to point out Tiruin claimed to be the originator (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164260.msg7492210#msg7492210) of flabort's Balance auto, in which it says they can't use the same ability ability two times in a row, though also claimed to never have acted on him. This means Tiruin was redirected onto flabort or flabort targeted Tiruin, or something to do with the webs that I'm not sure about since I'm unapologetically not paying much attention to things.
Anyway, the body snatching kill thing happened N1, not on N2, and then on N3. Could be a Balance influenced thing, maybe just coincidence.
Tiruin also stole the role of Lengrag, who claimed to have super-duper LYLO breaking powers, which seemed like a quite ridiculous thing to do. They're now dead, after at least Lenglon was put into a QT with Tolyk. This all makes me feel very uneasy about Tiruin.
Tolyk is not scum, 'cause FoU was on their bum all game. I very much dislike their non-use of their vote though.
TDS has been claiming to be a watcher/tracker dude, who was redirected by mafia, and if they did would come up with a better excuse between them than what 4mask did. It seems quite unlikely that mafia would redirect mafia, so it's quite unlikely TDS is scum.
Tea called the scum team as we know it here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164260.msg7493468;topicseen#msg7493468). This could quite easily be an opportunistic bus seeing as how FoU was revealed scum, and 4mask and TBF dropped off the face of the Earth on D3, while we were all happily thinking this was a 3-scum game. FoU may've knackered it though, since there's no reason for him to have chosen the two game modes he did if there was no scum left. Then again, there's not much to choose from. FoU's flip here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164260.msg7486598#msg7486598).
I'm thinking Tea just has good instincts there. Seemed pretty sold on FoU's lynch D2, I'm not sure Tea (or anyone, really) would bus their scum buddies on two consecutive days this early. That seems like madness, but I've never played with Tea before. They seem pragmatically analytical though, which leads me to believe mad gambits are uncommon in their play.
Jack is someone I don't like, but I can't explain why (gut feeling, need to read posts) and it's goddamn late so I'm going to bed.
Er... some order, in this lost... I don't know yet. Will read again tomorrow at some point.
If I had a vote, probably be voting Jack or Tea at this point, leaning on Jack, this prior to looking into things though, so perhaps that's the uncertainty talking. My gut apparently wants Tea to be town though, and Jack to be scum, so bugger it I'll be more certain:
Jack
PPE: I'll get to that question tomorrow/later, Tea.
Post by: Shakerag on June 28, 2017, 10:47:06 pm
Post by: Tea on June 28, 2017, 10:55:44 pm
Post by: hector13 on June 28, 2017, 11:22:29 pm
I won't read stuff tonight, but will kinda contextualise my "let's look at people as potential scum" as being done kind of in isolation, and Tiruin should be added as a potential votee at the end of it, meaning the order would be Jack, Tir, and Tea.
Post by: Tiruin on June 28, 2017, 11:45:51 pm
Also, Tiruin apparently stole my vote, so that's awesome. Understandable, but still totally awesome.I um, can't read sarcasm, so either you're happy I did something that contra-'d what you did, or you're happy that I did something? o_O Also I vote stole all of y'all (the failure rate is 1/# of persons targeted), meaning 1/5.
I vote-steal-shot 5 people; literally everyone not in TolyK's mason chat. Lenglon-Shakerag and Jack A T are in the chat with me and TolyK. Because non-mason chat :P (Actually given what TolyK said, he can invite literally anyone o_O)
Something very interesting. I've the exact role that lets me steal votes; however I do not know who I stole them from (I got a 'You gained a vote (x Total). You gained a vote (x Total).' so...as Lenglon-Shakerag is abducted (SO THERE'S AN ESS KAY!), I am super curious as to what's going on as somehow Lenglon-Shakerag got notes on who they targeted but I did not. Or at least webby messed up the results PM but still. :v
Also Jack A T: What happened to you and your night action.
So three of the Mafia team are dead, but the game isn't over. But the after death shenanigans seem to imply theres a Mafia player that's still alive. So there's two main possibilities here, that one Mafia player is remaining, or there are no Mafia players left and all that's left is a third party. The lack of a second kill again could support this. Or the second N1 was a one shot. At any rate, if someone is daykilled, it may clear things up.Tea You said you control the dead; the 'dead FoU' is still bloody acting.
[...]
Tea - I can't remember anything except they were also being frustrated by this game. I'll need to fix that
[...]
BUT, Persus; I don't see how it implies a Mafia still alive. The rule is in action and seems isolated from whether Mafia live or not?
Also dudes, turn your pages to Night 1. There was a kill--Persus absorbed it in his face, and then there's the abduct-kill(Presumed kill because Pozzai died the next night; N2).
SOMEHOW this is working again rather than disappearing N1.
SOMEHOW some stuff happened between then and now that didn't let it occur on N2/N3 if I presume it hit only on N1.
Also seriously people haven't fullclaimed yet. Hector, Persus, Tea, TolyK (Or at least, Tea and TolyK didn't do it in a nice list format :P)
NEXT
Webadict:
Quote from: OP Rules
- I cannot answer questions about player's roles unless that player's role is available to be seen (i.e. Roleflips.) I cannot answer questions about your role in thread. I can, however, answer generic questions. I will simply ask you to rephrase the question, if I deem the question is bad.When people submit roles for this BYOR; is it possible for them to not be given any abilities at all?
Tea I tried to target you last night, with a vote steal. Instead my action failed, and... well, there's really no point to me voting you because my vote was stolen instead! But, I want to make it clear that I am very suspicious of you right now, and I'm going to do a Posts in Isolation post on you later.Fullclaim it when done.
Everyone, especially Webadict Waiting on Webadict to tell me about any abilities I may have gained. Until I get a response, I'm not assuming anything, but I am theorizing that it's possible that I was blocked? No, blocks would not say "your action has failed", iirc.
Also please do read my posts. Kinda feels like no one remembers them X_X.I doooo! D: But I kinda forget more if it's not organized in a list--I do remember you have an ability to Hide, and to affect the ded.
Jack is someone I don't like, but I can't explain why (gut feeling, need to read posts) and it's goddamn late so I'm going to bed.I am...curious.
Er... some order, in this lost... I don't know yet. Will read again tomorrow at some point.
If I had a vote, probably be voting Jack or Tea at this point, leaning on Jack, this prior to looking into things though, so perhaps that's the uncertainty talking. My gut apparently wants Tea to be town though, and Jack to be scum, so bugger it I'll be more certain:
Jack
PPE: I'll get to that question tomorrow/later, Tea.
But something happened last night that blocked some people if I infer right and, I do await TDS' post and the rest (TolyK and Jack) as it seems everyone else has posted.
Hector/Persus/Tea; what did you do last night and why haven't you claimed it in the day?
So, like, do we get two "bah" posts?Was this one of them? :P
Also yes, you're effectively two players always--it's just that you conjoin and be 'one target'
Post by: flabort on June 29, 2017, 12:11:52 am
We really have to kill the last remaining mafioso twice, and they kill during the day now?
At least it's unlikely to fire off until the first votecount. And if it doesn't fire off during that first vote count, we can look at who's been inactive to test suspects. Or, if it does, we can look at who HAS been active.
Tea: I... see. Yeah, I had forgotten that you were planning on hiding. Um, I'm still suspicious about the revive thing, though. It could be you used Survival mode to hide and use your mafiakill, so that when your teammate changed the mode it wouldn't affect you during the night, and it could be changed to today. Furthermore, now you can repeat the kill during the day, and nobody would be suspicious when there's no kill at night later, because the mafiakill is now a day ability.
However, hiding is usually a pro-town power (Hector, Jack, you are good at digging up past Wuba games. Any where the mafia could hide?). Aaand my action failing pretty much confirms that you indeed were hiding, so I'll trust that you aren't lying about your role. Which pretty much makes you pro-town right now, with a very slim chance of being nasty.
Reads (summary, lazy, will probably do longer reads later)
Myself: Duh.
Tea: Thinking about it, their claim makes sense, and I pretty much confirmed it last night.
Tiruin: Every case I had which pointed to them being scum has been since contradicted with new evidence. Especially 4mask's flip.
Hector While I need to reanalyze them, I feel I can trust them.
Persus I'll be honest, I pretty much ignored them day 3, and I don't remember what my stance on them before was, so I really, really need to go over everything again.
Jack AT Ditto Persus
TolyK Well, their plan/idea definitely isn't going to work out (and would have lead to a mafia win), their experiment on me hasn't happened yet or failed somehow, and finding mafia was less interesting than breaking the system.
TheDarkStar Only active towards the end of Day 3, hardly active during Day 2, and pretty active Day 1 but hardly productive. Definitely need to go over each of their posts one by one, and soon.
I also want to mention, Lenglon-Shakerag died the same way that Pozzai did. That is definitely the mafiakill, or there's an SK. Which indicates that the kill on Persus was not the mafiakill, unless the SK is the abductor. Likely we will get a useful answer out of someone's claimed abilities. Jack's, for example.
Summary of claims I remember/can find:
Me: modified JOAT, gain powers from targeting or being targeted. Town, but also alternate win condition of having powers from all living players.
Tiruin: swapped roles with Lenglon-shakerag, which we know is "fairly defensible" and has a vote steal, which I have a copy of (because failed actions aren't used up). I can confirm the existance of the votesteal.
Lengrag(dead): Tiruin claimed her old role for them, so likely what they had. Modified JOAT (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164260.msg7493856#msg7493856) what with that auto,[/url] and they didn't deny the claim, and I can confirm the existence of the auto.
Jack AT: Crazy long role name (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164260.msg7494278#msg7494278), can shoot ammo at people granting them abilities. Can currently target 3? people each night with that, can upgrade ammo/targets during the day. Personally cannot confirm any of this.
TDS: Sees who visits him, tracks someone, has a day ability that Wuba will announce when it's used, 1-shot inspect. Personally cannot confirm any of this.
TolyK: The ability to copy an ability from 1 person and the ability to distribute it to another. Also an experiment which I have no clue if it worked or not, or what it was. Distributes QTs, or was that someone else? Personally cannot confirm any of this.
Tea: A reloadable revive and fun post-death abilities, only night action lets them hide, when dead has a kill and a vote. I can confirm the existence of the hiding, though I have no ability from them that I know of.
Persus: Gives beer cans.
Hector: Had a revive.
So nobody has claimed the source of the web strands ability I got, but if I am to assume that nobody action-ed me N2 and all my gained actions that night were from the Web Strands ability, then Tiruin, Lengrag, and 4mask had all been given web strands. Tiruin is the only one with webstrands left, it would seem.
Hector, Persus I would like more information about your roles, please. The mass claim basically happened, but you didn't participate.
PPE:
PFPFPThat is not consistent with Bigly, the ability I got from Lenglon-Shakerag who claimed I had the ability exactly as it came from them.Also, Tiruin apparently stole my vote, so that's awesome. Understandable, but still totally awesome.I um, can't read sarcasm, so either you're happy I did something that contra-'d what you did, or you're happy that I did something? o_O Also I vote stole all of y'all (the failure rate is 1/# of persons targeted), meaning 1/5.
I vote-steal-shot 5 people; literally everyone not in TolyK's mason chat. Lenglon-Shakerag and Jack A T are in the chat with me and TolyK. Because non-mason chat :P (Actually given what TolyK said, he can invite literally anyone o_O)
Something very interesting. I've the exact role that lets me steal votes; however I do not know who I stole them from (I got a 'You gained a vote (x Total). You gained a vote (x Total).' so...as Lenglon-Shakerag is abducted (SO THERE'S AN ESS KAY!), I am super curious as to what's going on as somehow Lenglon-Shakerag got notes on who they targeted but I did not. Or at least webby messed up the results PM but still. :v
Furthermore, what makes you think there's an SK, not a fourth mafioso? Why would FoU use the ability he used posthumously to protect the remaining mafia if there were no remaining mafia?
While my previous cases on you are void, this makes me worry again.
Tea You said you control the dead; the 'dead FoU' is still bloody acting.That is not what Tea claimed, as far as I saw. They claimed they have ways to avoid dying, at night they can hide to avoid being actioned on, and they have a reusable revive. When they are dead, they gain a kill and can PM a vote. That sounds like a fullclaim to me.
Also seriously people haven't fullclaimed yet. Hector, Persus, Tea, TolyK (Or at least, Tea and TolyK didn't do it in a nice list format :P)Also please do read my posts. Kinda feels like no one remembers them X_X.I doooo! D: But I kinda forget more if it's not organized in a list--I do remember you have an ability to Hide, and to affect the ded.
I never saw them being able to claim the dead when I went back to make this post and collect/collate claims.
Obviously. But Wuba needs to respond.Tea I tried to target you last night, with a vote steal. Instead my action failed, and... well, there's really no point to me voting you because my vote was stolen instead! But, I want to make it clear that I am very suspicious of you right now, and I'm going to do a Posts in Isolation post on you later.Fullclaim it when done.
Everyone, especially Webadict Waiting on Webadict to tell me about any abilities I may have gained. Until I get a response, I'm not assuming anything, but I am theorizing that it's possible that I was blocked? No, blocks would not say "your action has failed", iirc.
I am...curious.Tea hid. I can confirm, because my vote steal failed. Persus hasn't claimed their action last night because they haven't posted yet, and Hector has only posted that they haven't had time to read yet. So patience.
But something happened last night that blocked some people if I infer right and, I do await TDS' post and the rest (TolyK and Jack) as it seems everyone else has posted.
Hector/Persus/Tea; what did you do last night and why haven't you claimed it in the day?
Post by: Tiruin on June 29, 2017, 12:50:28 am
Quote
Spectator - The Mafiakill is a Day action.Wow this is bloody annoying.
Tea, WHAT ARE YOU DOING?!
Post by: Tiruin on June 29, 2017, 01:15:47 am
You can easily see their post history (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?action=profile;area=showposts;sa=messages;u=111446), and...yeah, I misremembered (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164260.msg7494264#msg7494264) her theme versus her claim.Tea You said you control the dead; the 'dead FoU' is still bloody acting.That is not what Tea claimed, as far as I saw. They claimed they have ways to avoid dying, at night they can hide to avoid being actioned on, and they have a reusable revive. When they are dead, they gain a kill and can PM a vote. That sounds like a fullclaim to me.
Also seriously people haven't fullclaimed yet. Hector, Persus, Tea, TolyK (Or at least, Tea and TolyK didn't do it in a nice list format :P)Also please do read my posts. Kinda feels like no one remembers them X_X.I doooo! D: But I kinda forget more if it's not organized in a list--I do remember you have an ability to Hide, and to affect the ded.
I never saw them being able to claim the dead when I went back to make this post and collect/collate claims.
Tiruin Well, with 4mask flipping with the abilities I was suspicious you had, you're pretty much in the clear in my eyes....? o_O I claimed the Auto of Balance.
...And I forgot on if you got your answer on being able to grab autos but please link it for me since I can't find it somehow.
Also what were you suspicious about anyway?
Also my above post was a reaction to the impression that Tea did stuff.
Post by: flabort on June 29, 2017, 01:19:47 am
Post by: Tiruin on June 29, 2017, 01:26:23 am
Also the above 'impression' to clarify, was me acting on the vague idea that Tea affects or lets the dead affect the game. And given my view on her as towny led to the reactionist "Wat".
Extend
I also want to mention, Lenglon-Shakerag died the same way that Pozzai did. That is definitely the mafiakill, or there's an SK. Which indicates that the kill on Persus was not the mafiakill, unless the SK is the abductor. Likely we will get a useful answer out of someone's claimed abilities. Jack's, for example.[NOBODY claimed yet anything on this. Tea; Hector; Persus; TolyK, haven't claimed. Action claims too, aren't yet done. I claimed all of mine :V
And yes last night I Bigly'd y'all not in TolyK's chat.
PPE:REELY? O_OPFPFPThat is not consistent with Bigly, the ability I got from Lenglon-Shakerag who claimed I had the ability exactly as it came from them.Also, Tiruin apparently stole my vote, so that's awesome. Understandable, but still totally awesome.I um, can't read sarcasm, so either you're happy I did something that contra-'d what you did, or you're happy that I did something? o_O Also I vote stole all of y'all (the failure rate is 1/# of persons targeted), meaning 1/5.
I vote-steal-shot 5 people; literally everyone not in TolyK's mason chat. Lenglon-Shakerag and Jack A T are in the chat with me and TolyK. Because non-mason chat :P (Actually given what TolyK said, he can invite literally anyone o_O)
Something very interesting. I've the exact role that lets me steal votes; however I do not know who I stole them from (I got a 'You gained a vote (x Total). You gained a vote (x Total).' so...as Lenglon-Shakerag is abducted (SO THERE'S AN ESS KAY!), I am super curious as to what's going on as somehow Lenglon-Shakerag got notes on who they targeted but I did not. Or at least webby messed up the results PM but still. :v
Furthermore, what makes you think there's an SK, not a fourth mafioso? Why would FoU use the ability he used posthumously to protect the remaining mafia if there were no remaining mafia?
While my previous cases on you are void, this makes me worry again.
Quote
(Night) Bigly [target]: Steal the target’s vote(s) for the next Day Phase. You may choose to destroy this ability to make your steal permanent. These votes return if you die.What 'isn't consistent' with Bigly? That's exactly what I got and I shared the full roles I have (had have, and now have) on TolyK-chat, so at least 2 people can reconfirm me :P
Also to copy from said chat-chat:
I've done some thinking--let's put (or at least for me) the benefit of the doubt that there is ONE Mafia left. Because, and this is why I believe this, while Webadict sorta-modconfirmed a death, there was something weird with the role and stuff (He flipped Mafia. He flipped blank. He also flipped something explicitly silly and referencing TBF's name or such--somehow I had a random thought that there's stuff to Jack A T because my earliest impression when I got the Foam Finger was "...did someone make a role about pre-game talks?" :P)
So I'm of the impression that there's still a Mafia alive--there are DEAD shenanigans [seriously those people got modkilled/LYNCHED, what is this unless someone stole FoU's DAY ACTION AND USED IT AT THE START OF DAY 4 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164260.msg7486598#msg7486598)]
Meaning yeah there is a 4th Mafia alive and I'm moreso acting on information we discussed in TolyK chat :v
I mean, I was with the impression that 'hey all 3 maffy are dead and I'm assuming there's 3 mafia' through the night :V That's retention for ya.
Tiruin I had been suspicious both the webs and monster within ability had come from you. Obviously not.Um...how does this make sense, when you obviously noticed the MW was a Mafiakill?
I mean it sounds like Shelob of LotR, but I'd never pick something spidery unless I had a good reason to do so.
That and if you were suspicious...that's MAFIAKILL emboldened there. There should be a degree MORE than suspicious :P
Post by: flabort on June 29, 2017, 01:32:25 am
Don't you remember when I was voting you because you had to be mafia? That was when I thought the Strings and Monster Within were yours.
As for why Bigly contradicts what you said, Bigly targets a single person, not X people. And it does not have the failure chance you described on the vote steal ability in that post which Bigly contradicts.
Post by: Tiruin on June 29, 2017, 01:36:07 am
You just aren't paying attention to the game, are you Tiruin?...I still don't get how you reasoned that they were mine. :v
Don't you remember when I was voting you because you had to be mafia? That was when I thought the Strings and Monster Within were yours.
That's me paying attention to the game.
...Unless I missed your reasoning [sorry x.x]
Quote
As for why Bigly contradicts what you said, Bigly targets a single person, not X people. And it does not have the failure chance you described on the vote steal ability in that post which Bigly contradicts.. . .HOW does that contradict what I said when I swapped Lenglon-Shakerag's role?
Also the failure change is from another ability, not part of Bigly :P The exact quote that I wrote is Bigly in full as is; if there's any weirdness, please boop the Tiruin.
Cuz I'm all :v at you...r claim?
Ninjedit: ...And then I realized I'm doing that thing again with my parsing that it is a single-target thing, and that my power to hit multiple people on a multiplication/dividend is part of another ability.
Yay Tiruin. Go wordings. Your languaging is betterish if Englished more.
>_>
I am shame.
To clarify my thought process overall regardless of game/alignment/whatever: I read things, vividly memorize, thent ranslate to understanding. That understanding is then used rather than its first rote context. :V
Post by: Tea on June 29, 2017, 01:46:50 am
Tea You said you control the dead; the 'dead FoU' is still bloody acting.
BUT, Persus; I don't see how it implies a Mafia still alive. The rule is in action and seems isolated from whether Mafia live or not?
Also dudes, turn your pages to Night 1. There was a kill--Persus absorbed it in his face, and then there's the abduct-kill(Presumed kill because Pozzai died the next night; N2).
SOMEHOW this is working again rather than disappearing N1.
SOMEHOW some stuff happened between then and now that didn't let it occur on N2/N3 if I presume it hit only on N1.
Also seriously people haven't fullclaimed yet. Hector, Persus, Tea, TolyK (Or at least, Tea and TolyK didn't do it in a nice list format :P)
NEXT
~Fullclaim~
Role Name: Calendar Man
-> (Batman character who I am not actually very familiar with but my brother mentioned him recently sooo)
Theme: Permanently dead players can still influence the game
Rewind, 1-shot auto - I revive on death. This reloads 1 cycle after being used
Holiday, Night - Due to <Calendar Man flavor> I go do my thing of celebrating a holiday and robbing ppl, the effect being that I become untargetable
Doomsday Device [target], 1-shot unusable - After I die I can kill [target]
Absentee Vote, 1-shot unusable - After I die I can PM Webadict a vote
N1 took no action and had my vote stolen
N2 took no action and had my vote returned
N3 used Holiday
--
I don't control the dead or have any contact with them and don't know where you're getting otherwise; it's just my fault so many people can do things after death from a design perspective. PPE: You figured this out.
FoU messing around with the game rules after all the mafia are dead is I guess possible? Seems less likely to me than there just being a 4th mafia considering how checked out of the game the dead mafia seemed to be - guess I don't envision them sitting around in graveyard chat or in PM with Webadict being like lol let's spite the town.
Your SK theory with the abduction kills...kinda makes sense actually :\ since I last checked the thread I was just thinking about how Jack's claim reconciles with the weird abduction kills and it...doesn't. So I don't think Jack is the 4th mafia who is also the source of the missingpeople. At least it's a bit til deadline since I...don't feel like dealing with 3p hunting at this particular moment.
Post by: Tiruin on June 29, 2017, 01:50:12 am
:v
Tea? Can we lynch you and you kill someone? What're your thoughts on that? [It's effectively going to be a day kill...as I presume stuff that happens on a lynch = still day]
Post by: Tea on June 29, 2017, 02:00:36 am
I'm not gonna go all salty and ragequit if that's what's voted for, though, so if there's no sign of my abilities being used then know that I'm being interfered with.
Post by: Tiruin on June 29, 2017, 02:16:28 am
Spending two days lynching town is a massive waste of time, so I can't say I'm a fan.Err...Tea? You revive.
I'm not gonna go all salty and ragequit if that's what's voted for, though, so if there's no sign of my abilities being used then know that I'm being interfered with.
And if you get lynched, you 'die', so you can then enable your kill when you get lynched as that induces death.
That's how I read it anyway. x.x
...I don't get how that first sentence makes sense however?
Or on the salty and ragequit?
Post by: hector13 on June 29, 2017, 10:16:28 am
A'ight, why are you deciding to lynch someone - which, as far as we know, is the town's only way of killing scum - 'cause of the mechanics of their role, as opposed to their alignment?
All the revives we've seen so far have happened more or less immediately, including flabort's D1 lynch. What makes you think that webadict will accept that the time between Tea being lynched and their revive is time they can use their kill, and why would we not just lynch someone and not waste the time?
What makes you think everyone in your non-mason chat is trustworthy? Has it escaped your notice that Tolyk has only invited the most experienced players they have played with before? What do you think about Tolyk not voting substantially for the entire game?
Also, another thing, the abduction didn't happen the night I was killed/revived, so I could have something to do with it :o
... but I don't, so whatevs.
Not read Jack yet; tourism abounds.
Post by: Tiruin on June 29, 2017, 10:55:52 am
TiruinYou...somehow reacted to the idea and took it as a chance to make what seems to be an emotionally pulling case when I merely suggested [and, in seeing it as decided? Pretty strange] it based on the exact wording presented. "Die" means 'dead' and not 'revived'.
A'ight, why are you deciding to lynch someone - which, as far as we know, is the town's only way of killing scum - 'cause of the mechanics of their role, as opposed to their alignment?
Quote
Doomsday Device [target], 1-shot unusable - After I die I can kill [target]See this. If she dies--which does not account for revives and does not mean to be 'should be DED', then she can kill this person. Since we just lost our BLOODY TWOFOLD INSPECTOR who was Lenglon-Shakerag (which will flip my past role too), I just y'know, brought the idea up in a way to poke awareness instead of 'hey let's do this!' :v
Rewind, 1-shot auto - I revive on death. This reloads 1 cycle after being used
What makes you think everyone in your non-mason chat is trustworthy? Has it escaped your notice that Tolyk has only invited the most experienced players they have played with before? What do you think about Tolyk not voting substantially for the entire game?While one of my past powers is hilariously named 'metaknowledge', that's something I never rely on in gleaning my idea of people :P I trust TolyK because that mason chat has basically our fullclaims at our disposal--it's just that something somehow happened and Jack's action hasn't happened to me, so I'm waiting on BOTH OF THEM TO RESPOND, especially as EITHER have not logged in- wait no TOlyK is logged in right now :v
But yeah, I do treat them with a degree of suspicion, but given the behavior within the masonchat and that there's literally 70-ish messages before I joined between them in a 'really casually trusting and informal' manner...it doesn't really seem like they're anti-town :v
Why are you being jumpy o_O
Post by: TolyK on June 29, 2017, 11:03:55 am
Alright, so: I can corroborate Tea's claim regarding N3. Am definitely not sure about lynching her to get the kill off.
To me, at least, Tiruin and Jack are completely cleared, and I've demonstrated to them my abilities.
Gut feeling + a bit of memory of my old notes gives me reason to vote for Hector13, especially given his latest post. I mean, it's not scummy, but seems very opportunistic and is trying to dislodge trust.
Post by: Tiruin on June 29, 2017, 11:07:56 am
I've just logged in. :)Just to clarify: NO I'm not going to lynch Tea (I mean seriously, the moment I suggested it was moreso 'the moment I'm bored in waiting for people to respond and hey let's do this to see how people respond in the now :v)
Alright, so: I can corroborate Tea's claim regarding N3. Am definitely not sure about lynching her to get the kill off.
And the responses were...quite reasonably casual and not that uppity. I guess.
Because looking back at context between then-Tea and now-Tea, I'm still seeing her in the same <_< She can't be our hidden anti-town dude.
Although I am curious about what happened in the night. Whatever occurred--Jack's plan failed, and TDS seriously has to post because he said he's a watcher-whatever. And Hector never fullclaimed :I
HAPPY TOURISM FOR YOU :D
Also, another thing, the abduction didn't happen the night I was killed/revived, so I could have something to do with it :o
... but I don't, so whatevs.
Not read Jack yet; tourism abounds.
But my grumpy intensifies on that awesome :o sentence of yours. I sincerely mean it's awesome by the way. It's what offsets my 'okay he reacted weirdly but...huh' feelings.
And yes it didn't happen then. v:
Is there any correlation between that and you not claiming?
Post by: TolyK on June 29, 2017, 11:21:50 am
Jack A T - TBH this is more of a lack of a townread than a scumread but I can see how pushing me D1 --> flabort ---> hopping on FoU after doll-Leng-etc. camp started pushing FoU is advantageous for scum. Him using a helpful night action on 4mask, who he had as null in a readlist mid-day1, is mildly indicative of them as partners. If there's super special TolyK reasons that I'm wrong on this I'd like to hear it.Re: PPE: Derp. It seems like you are not lying, though.
vote Jack A T
PPE: Yo flabort, as previously claimed I am planning on hiding for the rest of the game unless someone convinces me not to. I did last night. It will also take at least 2 day phases worth of stuff to kill me FYI because I revive on death (also as previously claimed).
Also please do read my posts. Kinda feels like no one remembers them X_X.
About Jack: I've always had a slight suspicion, but it was never really justified.
Reasons against him: You mostly mentioned them. He's also not pushed folks very much, though that's fairly normal for him. His action last night toward me did not work as was planned.
Reasons for him: He turned down a really good offer, though I need to rethink what to make of this. He also seemed town-y and didn't visibly lie yet.
Post by: TheDarkStar on June 29, 2017, 11:51:26 am
Spending two days lynching town is a massive waste of time, so I can't say I'm a fan.Err...Tea? You revive.
I'm not gonna go all salty and ragequit if that's what's voted for, though, so if there's no sign of my abilities being used then know that I'm being interfered with.
And if you get lynched, you 'die', so you can then enable your kill when you get lynched as that induces death.
That's how I read it anyway. x.x
...I don't get how that first sentence makes sense however?
Or on the salty and ragequit?
What's the point of lynching Tea if it's really just getting someone else killed? It seems like you're just trying to weaken someone to nightkill them.
Persus13:
TheDarkStar- His interactions with 4maskwolf and TheBiggerFish seemed off, I'll need to reread to put my finger on why. So as he probably figured out by now, I hit him with Jack's oneshot last night
How is it town-oriented play to remove my information-gathering auto?
Post by: Tiruin on June 29, 2017, 12:51:41 pm
Tiruin:...So your first post today is to jump on this other than provide useful information?Spending two days lynching town is a massive waste of time, so I can't say I'm a fan.Err...Tea? You revive.
I'm not gonna go all salty and ragequit if that's what's voted for, though, so if there's no sign of my abilities being used then know that I'm being interfered with.
And if you get lynched, you 'die', so you can then enable your kill when you get lynched as that induces death.
That's how I read it anyway. x.x
...I don't get how that first sentence makes sense however?
Or on the salty and ragequit?
What's the point of lynching Tea if it's really just getting someone else killed? It seems like you're just trying to weaken someone to nightkill them.
Like what you did last night?
What did you do last night, MR. TRACKER?
And did anyone seriously notice my degree of investment in that kind of query to Tea :v
Because it's taking everything I'm saying literally without prodding the context (and placing context instead) that leads to that kind of FoSing. That means what I did is working.
Anyway, back to those two questions. What did you do and what's going on--or what's going on with you, because that's a ton of brevity there.
Post by: TheDarkStar on June 29, 2017, 02:15:51 pm
And I have no information about who targeted me because someone took away that auto.
Post by: Jack A T on June 29, 2017, 02:39:54 pm
TheDarkStar I doubt is one of those four. Top suspect for third party? Definitely. His flabort case D2 is alarmingly shallow and baseless in any context, and that's not even touching the rest of my case. Most of his activity is similarly shallow, largely leaning on his claim as authority. However, for him to be part of the scumteam, we have to see 4mask's moves yesterday as intense distancing, which is reckless even for him. Scum was down one already, and a second was on his way to modkill. 4mask may be gambit-oriented, but I doubt even he would try the redirect claim thing against a teammate in such a circumstance.
We still don't know what's causing the weird abduction-kills, though we can rule TBF out. TBF's flip is another mystery: it's obviously not his real role. More claims.
I'm going to have to do a solid reread. The slog will take a while.
Also Jack A T: What happened to you and your night action.Tiruin: See quicktopic.
Tea? Can we lynch you and you kill someone? What're your thoughts on that? [It's effectively going to be a day kill...as I presume stuff that happens on a lynch = still day]I think there's a less roundabout way to kill whoever we end up wanting to kill.
(Hector, Jack, you are good at digging up past Wuba games. Any where the mafia could hide?)flabort: Yes, though not often. Mafiosoes in BYORs 14 (unlimited uses) and 10 (one-shot). BYOR 13, one scum could give other players (including scum) a hide action one night.
TheDarkStar- His interactions with 4maskwolf and TheBiggerFish seemed off, I'll need to reread to put my finger on why. So as he probably figured out by now, I hit him with Jack's oneshot last nightPersus13: You chucked a beer can at TDS, disabling his autos for a cycle. Based on what you've seen (his claimed auto being the most solid and most supported part of his claim), what did you hope to accomplish with this?
Jack A T - TBH this is more of a lack of a townread than a scumread but I can see how pushing me D1 --> flabort ---> hopping on FoU after doll-Leng-etc. camp started pushing FoU is advantageous for scum. Him using a helpful night action on 4mask, who he had as null in a readlist mid-day1, is mildly indicative of them as partners. If there's super special TolyK reasons that I'm wrong on this I'd like to hear it.Tea: When you have nothing but townreads, the permanently unreadable becomes an appealing target.
There are no super special TolyK reasons for any pre-N3 actions, and even last night, they were more "super special Tiruin and Lengrag" reasons. That said, there are a few things I think need to be mentioned regarding this narrative.
First, while my D1 vote on FoU was late in the day, it had a clear antecedent (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164260.msg7475303#msg7475303). I was hardly a latecomer. You're putting people before me who weren't before me. Lenglon, who you mention, wasn't even part of the push until late D2.
As for giving a thing to 4mask and my read on him, I recommend rereading my readlist read, looking at why it was null, and considering what happened afterwards regarding 4mask. For convenience:
4maskwolf: Start of game, he came off well, clashing against social norms to get his opinions out. Then his contributions started thinning out. Content-light posts for a while, and nothing for over 24 hours. I get the impression that he's busy in the background, and look forward to his return. Null.It should not be hard to figure out how my read changed.
Jack a little less so 'cause of their vote on TDS toward D2 end of which I was not a fan; watcher and fracker are, imo, very easy to mix up.hector: Is there anything else about that vote that you would like to comment on?
Wubawub: Your votecount for the end of D3 should include me voting for TDS, yes?
Post by: webadict on June 29, 2017, 07:20:36 pm
Post by: webadict on June 29, 2017, 07:43:38 pm
webadict: re: the mafiakill being a day action, does that mean the mafiakill is only a day action, or can it be used during the night too?The Mafiakill may be used as either a Day action or a Night action under the current rules.
Everyone, especially Webadict Waiting on Webadict to tell me about any abilities I may have gained. Until I get a response, I'm not assuming anything, but I am theorizing that it's possible that I was blocked? No, blocks would not say "your action has failed", iirc.Yeah, yeah. I got everything back in order. I blame illness.
Wubawub: Your votecount for the end of D3 should include me voting for TDS, yes?Hmm, I probably missed it. My bad!
Post by: flabort on June 29, 2017, 07:56:53 pm
:( Very upset to learn about the mafiakill being both a day and night action right now. Really hope the remaining anti town are an SK like Tiruin theorized.
With errors corrected, I have gained my ability from whomever stole my vote (probably Tiruin).
My new ability: Election, 1-shot, night. At the start of the day an election is held to decide a president. That player decides who is lynched that day. If the president is me, I gain a permanent vote.
Post by: webadict on June 29, 2017, 09:24:53 pm
Webadict:Surprisingly, the answer is "No." You will always be given abilities.Quote from: OP Rules- I cannot answer questions about player's roles unless that player's role is available to be seen (i.e. Roleflips.) I cannot answer questions about your role in thread. I can, however, answer generic questions. I will simply ask you to rephrase the question, if I deem the question is bad.When people submit roles for this BYOR; is it possible for them to not be given any abilities at all?
I wonder why you would even ask. >:D
Vote Count
------------------------
flabort -
hector13 - TolyK,
Jack A T - Tea,
Persus13 - TheDarkStar,
Tea -
TheDarkStar -
Tiruin -
TolyK -
No Lynch -
Not Voting - Jack A T, Tiruin, Persus13,
5 To Hammer. Day Ends on Monday, July 3rd around 8:00 PM CST. There is an Extension available.
Post by: hector13 on June 29, 2017, 10:32:26 pm
My last post was made in a hurry prior to leaving for tourism, so that may have contributed to the "jumpiness" component Tiruin felt from it. It appeared she felt it was the way to go from my read through of it (remember I was in a hurry) and I really thought the idea was bad - basically "we should lynch someone with a kill so they can kill scum" as opposed to us lynching scum - hence strong reaction.
Looked over Jack's stuff, though not so much into the other reasons in their case against TDS (at least not the links to various posts) but anyway, it looks like TDS isn't being scumread any more, so he doesn't need to reconcile scum!4mask redirecting his TDS!buddy. I did also see why he was befuddled by TDS confusion over his particular ability, it... was kinda egregious, but also kinda not.
However, I need to reconcile my read on Tiruin, seeing as scum!4mask redirected to her...
As for Tolyk's vote, dude needs to consider things from my perspective. He has rarely used his vote - his voice as Town - and has a QT to which he has invited half the town, within which information is being kept from the town at large, which doesn't exactly foster trust among the non-QT members of the town in the QT members. Thus, I was merely voicing that in the post he was upset about. He's only really getting any trust from at least me 'cause FoU was on his ass all game long.
By the same token, I'm only really trusted 'cause of my friendly neighboir ability so... yeah. I haven't used my vote much either, evidently I am unconsciously not a fan of hammers.
Also I haven't claimed, 'cause I don't like claiming. All the most interesting parts have been revealed anyway.
Post by: hector13 on June 29, 2017, 10:32:52 pm
Post by: TheDarkStar on June 30, 2017, 12:04:28 am
First, I used my one-shot inspect yesterday before Tiruin did her role switch with Lenglon-Shakerag and Lenglon-Shakerag were third party (I targeted them because that way I could essentially confirm two players as town at once). Hence why I thought they seemed cultish. I followed them last night and they visited TolyK and Tea (not that it helps much, since they're dead) but we do have one third party down.
A proper readthrough of stuff will come when I have time.
Post by: flabort on June 30, 2017, 12:25:14 am
Ok, I have some info.You did not remember their Miller claim? Of course you saw them as third party, they've always been claiming that anyone looking at them would see third party or serial killer. This is NOT news. You wasted your oneshot inspect.
First, I used my one-shot inspect yesterday before Tiruin did her role switch with Lenglon-Shakerag and Lenglon-Shakerag were third party (I targeted them because that way I could essentially confirm two players as town at once). Hence why I thought they seemed cultish. I followed them last night and they visited TolyK and Tea (not that it helps much, since they're dead) but we do have one third party down.
A proper readthrough of stuff will come when I have time.
The only useful information there is that they visited TolyK.
Post by: TheDarkStar on June 30, 2017, 12:34:24 am
Post by: Tea on June 30, 2017, 03:14:16 am
Jack A T - TBH this is more of a lack of a townread than a scumread but I can see how pushing me D1 --> flabort ---> hopping on FoU after doll-Leng-etc. camp started pushing FoU is advantageous for scum. Him using a helpful night action on 4mask, who he had as null in a readlist mid-day1, is mildly indicative of them as partners. If there's super special TolyK reasons that I'm wrong on this I'd like to hear it.Tea: When you have nothing but townreads, the permanently unreadable becomes an appealing target.
There are no super special TolyK reasons for any pre-N3 actions, and even last night, they were more "super special Tiruin and Lengrag" reasons. That said, there are a few things I think need to be mentioned regarding this narrative.
First, while my D1 vote on FoU was late in the day, it had a clear antecedent (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164260.msg7475303#msg7475303). I was hardly a latecomer. You're putting people before me who weren't before me. Lenglon, who you mention, wasn't even part of the push until late D2.
As for giving a thing to 4mask and my read on him, I recommend rereading my readlist read, looking at why it was null, and considering what happened afterwards regarding 4mask. For convenience:4maskwolf: Start of game, he came off well, clashing against social norms to get his opinions out. Then his contributions started thinning out. Content-light posts for a while, and nothing for over 24 hours. I get the impression that he's busy in the background, and look forward to his return. Null.It should not be hard to figure out how my read changed.
Firstly, I meant to say flabort instead of the last FoU. But let me walk you and others through my interpretation of D1 stuff.
Spoiler: Vote Count Analysis (click to show/hide)
Secondly, you quoting a post I'm already familiar with doesn't change my read that it's a slight partner-tell that you would target him N1 as opposed to anyone else you'd stated townreads on /shrug. Feel free to further explain the progression of your read on him from EOD1 to D2 if you remember it though.
~
Tiruin: Since I last posted I confirmed with Webadict that I do get to access my {unusable} abilities the first time I die (even if I'm revived). That interpretation hadn't occurred to me until you explained it more. Which is good. Means my role waaaay less trolly than I'd thought.
What I meant about being salty is that I'm personally frustrated by the fact that we don't know if doll used no actions or if they were interfered with because of the nature of doll's last post. I was saying that, if I am permanently dead and do not use my abilities, know for a fact that it is not because I'm mad about being lynched and forsaking the town.
~
I've gone on an emotional rollercoaster from refreshing the thread while at work, because I briefly forgot about the miller claim so I went from "WHAAAAAAAT?? They seemed so townie to me so if that's really the case then I'm glad they're probably dead by weird abduction" to ".............DarkStar what the f---, man, you had one job" to "....................I don't know what to believe anymore ;_;" Gonna have to sleep on it.
~
I think Persus is prob my closest thing to a 3P read?? Cuz his reads have been pretty townsided but he's flying super under the radar. If he could expand upon why he targeted TDS that'd be cooool.
Post by: Tiruin on June 30, 2017, 12:10:53 pm
._.Webadict:Surprisingly, the answer is "No." You will always be given abilities.Quote from: OP Rules- I cannot answer questions about player's roles unless that player's role is available to be seen (i.e. Roleflips.) I cannot answer questions about your role in thread. I can, however, answer generic questions. I will simply ask you to rephrase the question, if I deem the question is bad.When people submit roles for this BYOR; is it possible for them to not be given any abilities at all?
I wonder why you would even ask. >:D
At this point I'm open to even thinking webadict is a player and that's because someone made him a secret player.
Silly paranoia aside, that means there is a 3rd or "4th" Mafia given that fakeflip or whatever.
If that person was Town in whomever slashed TBF's role or alignment--they'd be claiming now for their credibility, but they ain't.
Please update the OP, Webadict :P
And the two people who haven't still claimed despite my multiple posts poking them are Hector13 and Persus13.
Both of whom have 13 in their names, too.
My one-shot sees alignments regardless of autos. In addition, I highly doubt that the miller ability exists because Tiruin claims to have not received it. We'll see what Lenglon-Shakerag flip tomorrow (assuming that the "missing" thing is just a one-day delay in the flip, just like it was before) but I'm pretty sure they're third party.Um .-. didn't you get redirected to me though- wait that was a day action and 4mask doesn't have a day action.
>.>
Are you...checking back on the thread in the past? Because Flabort's note is a very important one to note.
And you didn't use that alignment checker earlier, why?
Next: Yes I have no 'miller' ability :P Lenglon cleared it up. Otherwise, this means EITHER OF Y'ALL ABDUCTED LENGLAG.
Persus, I'ma vote your boat unless you even claim anything further than what you've done thus far. I do like your day streak, but I don't like that both you and Hector have been pretty silent about yourselves; especially since you, Tea, and Hector are all having revives to party with.
Seriously all them revives @_@ And the fact that NOBODY has outright claimed a nuke-like action?
Really feeling like there's an SK out there or something really high-powered anti-town.
Post by: Tiruin on June 30, 2017, 12:17:22 pm
Still that leaves TBF as a wildcard who I bet is being framed or whatever. Guess that influenced my thinking and I can't believe I missed that bit about FoU.
[/shame]
Post by: Persus13 on June 30, 2017, 04:04:33 pm
Pozzai was Hops (town).[/b]Does anyone know who Pozzai visited N1?QuoteHops
(Night) Bitter Preservative [target]: Guard the target from kills. If the target would die, you die instead.
I meant to post last night, but I wasn't able to use the internet, so posting now instead.
Let's start with my claim. My role was the Defenestrations of Prague, because I didn't want to try and mess with webadict this time.
I started as the First Defenestration of Prague, which had two abilities, a role block and a protect, and an two-shot auto called Self-Defenestrate where I'd jump out of a window and revive as the next Defenestration of Prague to escape the kill. I used the block on TBF N1, and then someone tried to kill me, so I became the Second Defenestration. I lost my protect and my roleblock, and now I have no night actions, and a one-shot randomize day action. If I die again I'll revive as the Third Defenestration.
I didn't say with 100% certainty there was a Mafia player still alive. I stated its possible there isn't one left. However, if all the Mafia are dead, why would Fallacy care to change the rules? He'd have already lost.So three of the Mafia team are dead, but the game isn't over. But the after death shenanigans seem to imply theres a Mafia player that's still alive. So there's two main possibilities here, that one Mafia player is remaining, or there are no Mafia players left and all that's left is a third party. The lack of a second kill again could support this. Or the second N1 was a one shot. At any rate, if someone is daykilled, it may clear things up.Tea You said you control the dead; the 'dead FoU' is still bloody acting.
[...]
Tea - I can't remember anything except they were also being frustrated by this game. I'll need to fix that
[...]
BUT, Persus; I don't see how it implies a Mafia still alive. The rule is in action and seems isolated from whether Mafia live or not?
Also dudes, turn your pages to Night 1. There was a kill--Persus absorbed it in his face, and then there's the abduct-kill(Presumed kill because Pozzai died the next night; N2).This was my line of thought yesterday. It could be that Hector absorbed both kills N2.
SOMEHOW this is working again rather than disappearing N1.
SOMEHOW some stuff happened between then and now that didn't let it occur on N2/N3 if I presume it hit only on N1.
Hector/Persus/Tea; what did you do last night and why haven't you claimed it in the day?I said this already, but I hit TDS with my Used Beer Can.
Persus13:You're not confirmed town.TheDarkStar- His interactions with 4maskwolf and TheBiggerFish seemed off, I'll need to reread to put my finger on why. So as he probably figured out by now, I hit him with Jack's oneshot last night
How is it town-oriented play to remove my information-gathering auto?
My brain didn't register that his self-watch was an Auto ability. I saw TBF and 4maskwolf flip Mafia and decided to use the only night action I had on my next suspect, which was TDS. Now I'm regretting not hitting Tea with it.TheDarkStar- His interactions with 4maskwolf and TheBiggerFish seemed off, I'll need to reread to put my finger on why. So as he probably figured out by now, I hit him with Jack's oneshot last nightPersus13: You chucked a beer can at TDS, disabling his autos for a cycle. Based on what you've seen (his claimed auto being the most solid and most supported part of his claim), what did you hope to accomplish with this?
From the votecounts I'm suspicious of Jack A T and Tea. Still need to look at TDS and 4maskwolf's posts in the thread, but I have to got to get off the computer right now.
Jack A T- Looked at his voting record, and its Tea, flabort, Fallacy and TDS.
Tea - Voting TBF at the end Day 3 despite him barely being present in the game. Voting another Mafia player that's not the one being lynched is not a bad strategy. Also, their roleclaim feels fishy.
Post by: TolyK on June 30, 2017, 04:30:35 pm
So, of the players left:
flabort - seems town to me, given all that's happened. Worst that could be is that he was targeted N3 with the 1-shot "mafiakill" to convert.
hector13 - Scummy. See below.
Jack A T - In chat. Had slight suspicion he was scum, but he's been completely truthful in his claims thus far, so I'm convinced he's town.
Persus13 - Not too much going either way, really. Seems town-y. Hit TDS with auto-disabler. PPE: Has 2 revives. Of course.
Tea - seems town-ish, due to being truthful. Voting pattern seems typical. Except, basically unkillable right now. How do people get such roles, I don't know...
TheDarkStar - seems to be third party, but not mafia, to several people. Basically not much activity all game + conflicting role claim, but vote behavior doesn't indicate scum and it doesn't seem to make much sense. Also "inspected LengRag" when they said they had a 3p-Miller ability, and trying to show they're third party ("ignores autos"). Seems like a 3p trying really hard to not look 3p, so TDS=SK theory seems to have ground.
Tiruin - In chat. Town, given truthfulness + my own inspection + lengrag switchfail.
TolyK - "Cult leader" and "town poisoner", Tiruin. :P
No Lynch - I thought he was scummy earlier on, but he seems cool now.
So, I'm least sure on hector, persus, TDS, and (to an extent) Tea.
Pretty certain flabort, Tiruin, Jack and TolyK are town.
Seems like 1 Mafia left (w/ a revive and daykill...) and 1 SK? That gives us a pretty good chance to lynch a baddie.
Still voting for hector13 as he was the second to vote Jack whilst kinda buddying Tea (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164260.msg7498065#msg7498065), plus other things I can't remember ATM. Jumped on an "easy" Tiruin vote. Seems most scummy to me, currently. What doesn't fit this is that he was killed + revived N2.
Post by: Tiruin on July 01, 2017, 12:33:57 am
Somehow between the time of his death (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164260.msg7486598#msg7486598) (and that meant he had that one-shot, anytime (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164260.msg7497952#msg7497952) at this time), he didn't use it in between then (like the whole cycle after (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164260.msg7489884#msg7489884)) and today.I didn't say with 100% certainty there was a Mafia player still alive. I stated its possible there isn't one left. However, if all the Mafia are dead, why would Fallacy care to change the rules? He'd have already lost.So three of the Mafia team are dead, but the game isn't over. But the after death shenanigans seem to imply theres a Mafia player that's still alive. So there's two main possibilities here, that one Mafia player is remaining, or there are no Mafia players left and all that's left is a third party. The lack of a second kill again could support this. Or the second N1 was a one shot. At any rate, if someone is daykilled, it may clear things up.Tea You said you control the dead; the 'dead FoU' is still bloody acting.
[...]
Tea - I can't remember anything except they were also being frustrated by this game. I'll need to fix that
[...]
BUT, Persus; I don't see how it implies a Mafia still alive. The rule is in action and seems isolated from whether Mafia live or not?
And having a Mafiakill as a day action is FAR MORE over all those other bloody rules that's in his system.
Quote
Additional Information
Rules:
Survival - The Mafiakill does not count toward the 1 action per Phase limit.
Creative - The next Mafia Player to die revives. This ability only triggers once per game.
Hardcore - Whenever a Mafia Player uses a Mafiakill, they may also choose to Block their target.
Spectator - The Mafiakill is a Day action.
Adventure - The Mafiakill cannot be redirected or blocked.
Tiruin - In chat. Town, given truthfulness + my own inspection + lengrag switchfail.Uhh...what was all that about me? [Please clarify] o_O
TolyK - "Cult leader" and "town poisoner", Tiruin. :P
No Lynch - I thought he was scummy earlier on, but he seems cool now.
Flabort: As TDS got his update, surely you got yours. Fullclaim please.
Post by: webadict on July 01, 2017, 01:19:00 am
Someone has made a brazen move.
You watch as a shadow appears behind TheDarkStar and slashes her in half. You're not sure which part is more concerning though: The two halves of TheDarkStar or the fact that they're all spiders. Like, there are spiders EVERYWHERE. And they're spouting all the worst things imaginable.
Who would ever listen to such horrible propaganda?
TheDarkStar has been killed!
TheDarkStar was Spiders, Spiders Everywhere (cult).
Votes Reset.
Vote Count
------------------------
flabort -
hector13 -
Jack A T -
Persus13 -
Tea -
Tiruin -
TolyK -
No Lynch -
Not Voting - Jack A T, Tiruin, Persus13, Tea, TolyK,
4 To Hammer. Day Ends on Monday, July 3rd around 8:00 PM CST. There is an Extension available.
Quote from: Current Rules
Creative - The next Mafia Player to die revives. This ability only triggers once per game.
Spectator - The Mafiakill is a Day action.
Quote
Spiders, Spiders Everywhere
(Auto) Tangled Webs: When a player targets you, they gain a Web Strand on them. You learn of all players that target you each Phase. When you die, all Web Strands disappear.
(Night) Multiply [target]: The target gains double the number of Web Strands.
(Night) Spiders Everywhere: All players with Web Strands gain one additional Web Strand.
(Night) Web Shot [target]: The target gains 2 Web Strands. You learn who they targeted at Night., and those targets also gain a Web Strand.
(Any) Cocoon [target]: You kill the target. This ability fails if the target has less than 15 Web Strands. If this is used during the Day, this action is public.
(1-Shot) Marionette: You convert the Town player with the most Web Strands to your alignment. You will gain access to a private chat with them. This ability cannot be destroyed or reloaded.
Role Information
Web Strand:
As players gain Web Strands, effects happen to players.
5+ Web Strands - Any player with 5+ Web Strands that targets a player gives their target a Web Strand.
10+ Web Strands - The player becomes Webbed. Any player that targets a player with 10+ Web Strands also gains a Web Strand.
15+ Web Strands - You are notified of any player with 15+ Web Strands.
Webbed: You are Webbed. You are finding your movements difficult. Everything you touch and everything that touches you is getting covered in Webs!
Post by: Tiruin on July 01, 2017, 01:31:36 am
...And the game isn't ended yet.
Webadict: Do we know how many webstrands people have before TDS' death?
ALSO WHY IS THE SPIDER PERSON A CULTIST THRICE DARNIT. Also(2), I'ma roll over to read back what had happened in D2 or otherwise. That said, Lenglon-Shakerag have been his targets as far as mentioned before so...
...
Double cult death? Whoever that Mafia/SK is, that's on a roll for town :3
Although I do wonder why I wasn't the target :v
And why the vote was reset.
And why TDS would 'confirm' me as Town just like 4mask did :V (and 4mask talk about TDS in the same manner or whatever too--referencing that thing I said about D2 stuff)
Post by: Tiruin on July 01, 2017, 01:43:36 am
Quote
(1-Shot) Marionette: You convert the Town player with the most Web Strands to your alignment. You will gain access to a private chat with them. This ability cannot be destroyed or reloaded.Also the fish is with this DAY/night cult convert @_@
Super high power game :v
Super wow.
But if I've to assume that in reading TDS' role (which kinda explains his lacking day activity and whatever), there's that nuke action.
But that's going to be a sorely delayed nuke action given the need for 15+ web strands
Tiruin.
Hector13; Hector13; Hector13; Hector13; Hector13; Hector13; Hector13. In that order respectively.
No I'm not serious in that's how many votes I have, I'm just voting a lot to check how many votes I have :V (3 currently; 2 stolen), the vote is temporary because we don't have a claim from you.
...Also that probably explains his weird behavior to me. I was leaning on TDS' day-inspect until he FoS'd me.
Did ANYONE target TDS before until now? Because I doubt his nuke-ability is the only reason for everyone (literally around 3 or so people :V) having revives.
Post by: Tiruin on July 01, 2017, 02:04:26 am
O_oAlso to clarify on this before people go WAAAAA :v, this comment was more on 'hey someone shot cult', and I'd presume that was the Mafiakill. (I realize that the wording and starting the sentence with 'and' sets off lingual implications for many people so yeah; my messy wording for Tired Tiruins is greaaaat.)
...And the game isn't ended yet.
That confirms the existence of that Mafia dude and TBF being a framed person. That does push the idea that this is pretty much bloody highpowered.
Anyway, role call.
Tea has been confirmed by ~2 people. TolyK (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164260.msg7498465#msg7498465), and...someone else.
PERSUS targeted TDS with a beer can. I'm putting him as suspect for the one who KILLED him. (because why would you shoot away someone's auto without explaining anything and THEN knowing his fakeclaim (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164260.msg7493353#msg7493353) [that kinda had sense in that TDS, I assume, didn't have to lie about certain portions due to association, although there was heat on him back then [heat as in attention in the day]; also his rather low postcount makes an easy check in his posts])
But that bears questioning. And at least, UNTIL Lenglon-Shakerag flips; we've around 2 anti-town remaining.
Also, to note, Persus13 was the one who died N1. The same night someone was abduct-kill't. This didn't happen N2. [HECTOR SAID SOMETHING ABOUT THIS IN A VERY VAGUE WAY :o]
N3 had Lenglon-Shakerag Abduct-kill't, so it's safe to assume that Persus ain't the dude who was doing these abduct-kills. (Which is why I wasn't voting him but quipped instead :P)
That leaves Tea or Hector13. However the former has been marked by 2 people as of yesterday :V I forgot what they did though but I'ma check.
Webadict: Do dead teammates of a quicktopic still have access to (like, y'know, plan and stuff) their quicktopic, if they can act while dead?
Alsoalso while typing this post I found significant notes of mention in TDS. His actionlist for the past nights. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164260.msg7495828#msg7495828) (This last night he targeted Lenglon-Shakrag (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164260.msg7499175#msg7499175)); he made a post back D3 regarding the 'everyone wins plan' (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164260.msg7495247#msg7495247) and I don't see a hint towards any of his words to his role (unless, y'know, you count that NUKE option); also that it makes sense to believe his target (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164260.msg7493921#msg7493921) last night ifsoever he voted the...very target he was picking and projected himself quite subtly in his vote there...which I guess removes the idea that Lenglon-Shakerag was his cult convert target.
And that if Flabort is cult...he has a different wincon anyway, but is anti-town so...harmless cult//non-motivated anti-town cult?
...
Webadict: If someone is anti-town, but has an ability that creates a wincondition for themselves {eg Flabort's Heroes wincon}, given say--the cult wincondition
Quote
Alignment: CultIs being converted to cult override a wincon that an auto gives you? Which takes priority, or can both mutually apply?
Wincon: You win when your team equals or outnumbers the remaining players and all other killing roles are dead.
Post by: Jack A T on July 01, 2017, 02:40:05 am
My new ammo: T-shirts. My Ross rifle fires t-shirts now. They give a block power, because the free t-shirt needs to be worn, apparently. I guess I have an underbarrel t-shirt cannon attachment now.
Well, well. I've preparing a post and read list, slowly. Do not look forward to isolations of players with several dozen posts each, and I've got a busy weekend. This, though, complicates matters.
Considering thirds cannot be converted, and considering TDS's conversion power, TDS was the cult leader. Weak cult, weakness mitigated a bit by the any-phase convert.
We have a few nights of TDS's claimed actions. N1, confirmed, was Web Shot on flabort. TDS was targeted by Lengrag.
D2 web strands: 2 flabs, 1 Lengrag.
flabort used Spiders Everywhere, received from TDS's N1 action, N2. TDS was targeted by Lengrag and 4mask. TDS did something, apparently seeing Tiruin target Lengrag. Sort of.
D3 web strands: 3 flabs, 3 Lengrag, 1 4mask (irrelevant), 2 Tiruin?
N3, Persus disabled TDS's autos with a beer can, negating the effects of Tangled Webs. TDS's claimed action is a clear lie, so we don't know what he did.
Nobody ever complained about being left out of TDS's self-watching results, so I feel comfortable taking them as accurate.
Flabort is the most likely cultist, if TDS successfully converted. Tiruin is narrowly possible, but knowing her role, very unlikely.
Flabort was ahead day 2 and was tied D3 with Lengrag. Mid-D3 is about when TDS latched onto Lengrag as a threat (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164260.msg7493921#msg7493921), and today, TDS tried to push the idea of Lengrag being a third party hard. Is quite consistent with conversion during this timeframe and the alarm bells that would naturally ring if someone ran the numbers.
If we take his Heroes claim as true, though, the potential threat of flabort can be disabled without too much difficulty. Definitely not a top priority threat right now.
That said, TDS may not have converted at all. Stalling (very unlikely) or failure (more possible). Checking with Wubs about this possibility.
I'll try to get that reads list in Sunday.
That confirms the existence of that Mafia dude and TBF being a framed person. That does push the idea that this is pretty much bloody highpowered.Tiruin: TBF could have been framed, but this doesn't confirm that. I see nothing in this game that specifically indicates a 3-person scumteam. Did I miss something?
Webadict: If TDS used Marionette when two town players tied for the most spider webs, would Marionette successfully convert anyone? Also, if Marionette failed, would its shot be spent?
Post by: Tea on July 01, 2017, 02:59:36 am
That leaves Tea or Hector13. However the former has been marked by 2 people as of yesterday :V I forgot what they did though but I'ma check.
N1 I did nothing and had my vote stolen by Lengrag
N2 I did nothing and had my vote returned by them
N3 I hid and flabort claimed to have tried to steal my vote; TolyK also claimed to have tried to do something that failed; per DarkStar I was targeted by Lengrag but am not sure if that's legit.
The abduction thing happened on both N1 and N3, and I feel like I'm semi clear of at least not having done the same thing those nights. If Hector's some kind of friendly neighbor-faking SK that's probably more disturbing flavor than spiders D:
The 1-shot inspect thing seems like code for DarkStar's marionette ability - which does seem like he tried to use it expecting that it would recruit Leng and it failed. Am interested to see Webadict's answers.
I feel semi better about Jack's DarkStar push D2 in light of the flip. Not that it's impossible to correctly 3P hunt as mafia, I just respect that there was critical and correct thought to that. So I'm not snap revoting; will reread over the weekend.
Post by: Tiruin on July 01, 2017, 03:53:06 am
As of now, Me, Hector(?), TolyK, and Jack are requesting an extension :3 (I was the fiiirst~ :P)
<.<That confirms the existence of that Mafia dude and TBF being a framed person. That does push the idea that this is pretty much bloody highpowered.Tiruin: TBF could have been framed, but this doesn't confirm that. I see nothing in this game that specifically indicates a 3-person scumteam. Did I miss something?
>_>
Me assuming that it's a 3 person scumteam ._.
Extend: busy weekend for me too....You never mentioned getting new ammo, or I misread :P
My new ammo: T-shirts. My Ross rifle fires t-shirts now. They give a block power, because the free t-shirt needs to be worn, apparently. I guess I have an underbarrel t-shirt cannon attachment now.[...]
Considering thirds cannot be converted, and considering TDS's conversion power, TDS was the cult leader. Weak cult, weakness mitigated a bit by the any-phase convert.
But seriously. You are one hilarious rifle.
...But wasn't it obvious that they are the cult leader?
Who starts with an ability that explicitly says 'Town' and 'Convert' in the same sentence that isn't a cult leader @_@
[...]...Clear lie? He could've watched L/S, and it's obvious he's not the one who abduct-kills people, so it could be pretty true in that L/S targeted two people with MY powers. :O
N3, Persus disabled TDS's autos with a beer can, negating the effects of Tangled Webs. TDS's claimed action is a clear lie, so we don't know what he did.[...]
It just so happens that he doesn't get a watch ability if he got targeted (so he didn't know that Persus canned him, just that his auto is wiped, probably. Heh, canned.)
[...]TFW Jack wins the game by throwing empty beer cans at people.
If we take his Heroes claim as true, though, the potential threat of flabort can be disabled without too much difficulty. Definitely not a top priority threat right now.
[....]
Webadict: Do you send a 'failure' response for a 'partially failed action'?
Because you should've sent me something, Jack, but didn't, and you said you didn't get a failure response?
Post by: Jack A T on July 01, 2017, 04:14:13 am
Webadict: Do you send a 'failure' response for a 'partially failed action'?Tiruin: I also got no failure message when Lengrag did not receive their beer can N2. It seems I don't get a failure response when only part of my action fails.
Because you should've sent me something, Jack, but didn't, and you said you didn't get a failure response?
Quote from: Tiruin
...You never mentioned getting new ammo, or I misread :PIt's my daily upgrade. Today, I went for ammo: don't need to be able to target yet another person per night.
But seriously. You are one hilarious rifle.
I really should make an artistic rendition of my role after the game.
Quote from: Tiruin
...But wasn't it obvious that they are the cult leader?With the weakness of the conversion power, I could see the potential for discussion to veer into "but was he really cult leader??!?!?!".
Quote from: Tiruin
...Clear lie?TDS claimed to have used a one-shot alignment inspect that came as part of his role. He doesn't have a one-shot alignment inspect. He did not take the action he claimed to take.
Quote from: Tiruin
TFW Jack wins the game by throwing empty beer cans at people.I was thinking a vuvuzela, actually. Less terrible stale beer smell, more endless buzzing from which no human mind can ever recover.
Post by: TolyK on July 01, 2017, 05:09:51 am
Post by: Tiruin on July 01, 2017, 05:18:49 am
Oh. I thought you were talking about his watch targets because whomever he converted is tied to whomever is most webstrandy, and I have posted in our quicktopic that...his timing is the most important bit, before we start taking what he's saying honestly by fact (despite my previous post saying otherwise; this is me rethinking it :O)Quote from: Tiruin...Clear lie?TDS claimed to have used a one-shot alignment inspect that came as part of his role. He doesn't have a one-shot alignment inspect. He did not take the action he claimed to take.
Quote
...I thought of food, till I remembered that's the thing that goes BLEEEEEEPFHN.Quote from: TiruinTFW Jack wins the game by throwing empty beer cans at people.I was thinking a vuvuzela, actually. Less terrible stale beer smell, more endless buzzing from which no human mind can ever recover.
Also there's seriously no way you and TOlyK can be anti-town else I'd be all EVERYONE IS ANTI TOWN BUT ME right now. :V
Webadict: The Mafiakill is once-per-cycle only right?
Point ._. TolyK keeps confirming you so I've to bet that you're both town or I lose my sanity.Webadict: Do you send a 'failure' response for a 'partially failed action'?Tiruin: I also got no failure message when Lengrag did not receive their beer can N2. It seems I don't get a failure response when only part of my action fails.
Because you should've sent me something, Jack, but didn't, and you said you didn't get a failure response?
Quote
Tiruin - I'ma wall. Hi.SOOOO Unless Persus13 is a liar and dies and abductkilled someone else when he revived; I doubt that his revivification stuffiness is something extra ability-fancy that such would've happened back N1. And rather my speculation on L/S being cult or otherwise--we have no idea, because his watching people can either be breadcrumbing (also timing; he claimed far after others did), or it'll lead to the other cultist which would be strangely against his wincon. It can't be Tea because she said she hid in the past...day. Not 'day"s"'.
TolyK - I'm TolyK.
Jack A T - I'm Jack.
And we are masonchatbuddies! Also it would be pretty too much to denote that either of them are the Last Mafiaso (TolyK claimed he can invite people as a Day ability. This is true. Lately he got his copycat stuff; N1 used on LengRag, failed. N2 used on Tiruin, got a mixed inspect-abilpower thing. N3 he did whatever on Tea which confirms she hid).
flabort - Probably gonna win when he gets abilities from every living player. He has one from me, and checking his postlog (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?action=profile;area=showposts;sa=messages;u=15153),
hector13 -
Persus13 -
Tea -
:V
So my suspects are on Tea or Hector13. Tea said she didn't act on N1. And Bay12 isn't loading well so I can't link and look further but bluh.
Suspeeeeects. Also at most 2 anti-town left. Unless there's ANY MORE hilarity to this game that webadict devised @_@
Post by: webadict on July 01, 2017, 08:46:26 am
Webadict: Do we know how many webstrands people have before TDS' death?I would think not.
Webadict: Do dead teammates of a quicktopic still have access to (like, y'know, plan and stuff) their quicktopic, if they can act while dead?1. Yes, they have access, but no, they cannot talk. They're dead, after all.
...
Webadict: If someone is anti-town, but has an ability that creates a wincondition for themselves {eg Flabort's Heroes wincon}, given say--the cult wincondition Is being converted to cult override a wincon that an auto gives you? Which takes priority, or can both mutually apply?
2. I'm afraid that example is useless to me, as there is no reference point. However, without that example for any clarification, no. Unless the ability removes the ability or removes your role, alignment changing does NOT affect abilities.
Webadict: If TDS used Marionette when two town players tied for the most spider webs, would Marionette successfully convert anyone? Also, if Marionette failed, would its shot be spent?A random target is chosen if all available targets are at equal Web Strands. Marionette can only fail if no available targets exist. If an ability fails, in general, I do not remove any shots from it. That case stands here.
Webadict: Do you send a 'failure' response for a 'partially failed action'?No. I'm an optimist, so I like to see it as partial successful action. In general, you will only receive a message of failure when you wholly fail an action.
Webadict: The Mafiakill is once-per-cycle only right?You are correct. The Mafiakill is a once per Cycle ability. The Mafia could not kill once during the Day Phase and once during the Night Phase under our current rules.
Post by: hector13 on July 01, 2017, 10:11:06 am
This, assuming I've not been working on one the entire game (or longer!) 'cause I don't like claiming.
Post by: TheDarkStar on July 01, 2017, 01:21:18 pm
...I'll see myself out now.
Post by: Tiruin on July 01, 2017, 02:40:22 pm
As a quick aside, we've just discovered TDS lied about his abilities. What makes you think you can trust any claim I make regarding mine, knowing that I'm ostensibly only doing so to stop people voting me?l, and have had about a week and a half to consider a fake one when the first mass claim happened?I-...
This, assuming I've not been working on one the entire game (or longer!) 'cause I don't like claiming.
>_>
<.<
...Do you have a post restriction that makes you contra to everything? Because when you made stances towards things, you've been counterpointing mostly everything because you "don't like it".
The talk with Lenglon; the talk about others' ideas; and the lack of talking about why you've thought about claiming other than saying you're only disliking claiming now. :v
Also we have elimination processes. That will probably be better off made tomorrow when L/S flips, but otherwise it is not healthy to also presume that one has fully lied (I mean I'm happy I made the Cardcaptor Sakura role but I digress); TDS has mentioned things that were proven (ie Flaborty stuff), wherein he didn't need to lie to do things because it was more beneficial for certain other factors (ie Cover)
What reason do you have other than 'I don't like claiming'?
Why don't you like claiming? @_@
And what makes you think we won't trust any claim regarding yours?
You've had a week and a half, but also like PERSUS and TEA, haven't claimed during the first duration wherein it was mentioned.
...And none of you mentioned why because nobody asked why so I'll ask now on why are y'all late in doing so? o_O
I guess you could call me a web addict 8)SPIDERS D:< HISS
...I'll see myself out now.
Post by: Tiruin on July 01, 2017, 02:42:53 pm
And I will be biased to count that as -towny points.
But you are curious, and probably suffering from Scottish weather (please be well and safe), so I am curious.
What do you think about town-planning night action plans? They've worked before in other games; I don't see how they'll fail here.
Post by: TolyK on July 01, 2017, 04:47:59 pm
BTW, if everyone is Webbed, we can disable your auto for being cult. Probably. Though if I understood it correctly, all webs die when Mr Web Addict here died.
Also, nobody gonna claim responsibility for that, huh.
Post by: hector13 on July 01, 2017, 05:06:07 pm
Also if it makes you feel better, Hector, Lenglon AND Shakerag never claimed anything in their duration in our quicktopic. Claimed as in 'claimed their role' other than saying 'I have everything plus handicaps'. I mean I can fairly assume Lenglon didn't claim the miller ability because it was already in public view but still. They didn't claim. :O
And I will be biased to count that as -towny points.
But you are curious, and probably suffering from Scottish weather (please be well and safe), so I am curious.
What do you think about town-planning night action plans? They've worked before in other games; I don't see how they'll fail here.
Well just now it seems a bit pointless to be planning night actions since I'm not sure we have any way of figuring out who the scum is from them or stopping them doing what they're doing, at least this night. I'm not against it, though.
I was just up the road in Wisconsin, to be fair, but no computer and such. I'm back now.
I'm not sure what's more curious about me though. I may not have outright claimed things, but aspects of my role have popped up a few times, specifically the Friendly Neighbour thing, a day action, and my revive, which was going to revive every person killed N2, had I not been the only NK... ah well.
Anyway, I won't claim because it will make my night action completely redundant. Well, except one use of it, that I'll probably do N4 - assuming I don't get lynched - but that's kind of an "off-label" thing rather than what it's intended to do.
Kinda waiting on the rest of that case against me byraway Tolyk.
"hector's scummy 'cause of the most recent thing he did, and some other stuff I can't remember 'cause I'm not paying attention" kinda sucks as the only case you've made so far.
I mean I haven't really been engaged with the game D2, my vote certainly hasn't followed my ostensible suspicions since then, my biggest contribution D3 was a meta "how do we have fun" argument, D4 I've been wishy-washy with who I think is scummy (at least privately, not sure how that's come across in the thread) and have refused to claim.
... anyway, I guess I'm not contributing to the day game, two of the remaining 7 players have claimed they have at least one revive left, some folks are scumreading me, so I guess I'm not a priority scum target anyway. TDS may have been killed 'cause scum genuinely thought they were TP, or to throw some shade my way 'cause I was the only one town reading him.
I'm sure this means we'll be getting day murdered for the remainder of the game though.
I have four abilities: Friendly Neighbour, day action, tell folk I'm town. Used on doll D1, Lengrag D2.
Protect, night action. Used on doll N1, and either Tiruin or TDS N3 (I initially PM'd Tiruin as the target, changed it to TDS, didn't bother asking webadict which was the target after Persus said they disabled TDS' auto watch)
ULTRASUPERDUPERREVIVEMOFOS, night action, 1-shot: revive all players killed during the night, used N2 'cause I'm selfish and thought I was gonna be murdered in the night.
x-shot restorer, phaseless, 1-shot: used D3 on myself.
Post by: hector13 on July 01, 2017, 05:11:19 pm
I guess you could add tunneling certain players, but that tends to be something I do in larger games. Certainly not aided by the fact we had 3 people revive after 2 days and nights, so... I was expecting there to be much fewer players kicking around.
Post by: flabort on July 01, 2017, 11:49:33 pm
I'm assuming that the mafia was the one who killed TDS. Hence why nobody is taking credit.
I am so regretful that I aided the cultist by using Spiders Everywhere - but it did gain me some abilities that turned out to be useful when I used it, so I don't regret that.
Flabort: As TDS got his update, surely you got yours. Fullclaim please.Tiruin I have been claiming as I got stuff. In case you missed it, here are my claims (which add up to my full claim):
Quote from: Original Role, lost on reviveFlabort’s High-Powered BYOR (Town)
Auto (Triggered on lynch day 1): Backup role: I could choose a rolename, and when I died I would revive as that role.
Night, target: Randomly Selected: Randomize the target.
night, target/self: high power: Give target a random 1-shot from a preset list (Protect, Inspect, Kill, Track, Watch, Karma, Bus, Redirect, Guard, Block)
1-shot: Infinite Actions: does not count towards one action per phase, on the phase used any actions used may be targeted at any number of players, though each player only once.Quote from: The role I revived asPeter Petrelli (town)
Auto: Heroes: Whenever targeted by someone or I target someone, gain a 1-shot version of a random ability of theirs. If I gain a power from all living players, I win.
1-shot, target (gained as part of the role, used N1): Eerie Arrival: Kill a player that aided in my death.
1-shot, Night (gained N1, used N2) Spiders Everywhere: all players with web strands gain an additional web strand.
1-shot, auto (gained N1): Withdrawal: Become caffeine withdrawal, granting additional abilities, after death. Ability is [REDACTED]
on death.
1-shot, Night, target (gained N2, Attempted to use N3 but failed): Bigly: steal a vote from target. can destroy ability to make vote steal permanent, votes return if I die.
1-shot, mafiakill (gained N2): Monster Within: Convert target to your alignment, if successful you die and flip as their role + alignment, they gain this role.
auto (gained N2): Balance: Cannot use the same ability twice in a row.
With errors corrected, I have gained my ability from whomever stole my vote (probably Tiruin).
My new ability: Election, 1-shot, night. At the start of the day an election is held to decide a president. That player decides who is lynched that day. If the president is me, I gain a permanent vote.
Post by: flabort on July 02, 2017, 12:02:05 am
That said, with the possibility that Tiruin is scum, a single misvote could cause Tiruin to change her votes and hammer on whichever poor towny you vote; which is why, if this happens, I plan on using my Bigly one shot on her during the night, so that she doesn't steal any other votes.
If it doesn't happen, I'm open to suggestions. I could use Bigly on someone (possibly still Tiruin), or I could use Election.
As to who I suspect out of who's remaining... pretty much everyone except Tea. In order of who I suspect least to most, though, its TolyK, Tiruin, Hector, Jack, Persus. Though I could not vote if I wanted to right now.
Post by: Tiruin on July 02, 2017, 01:15:43 am
I have 3 votes unless someone foam fingered me.
I spent 1 on myself and 2 on the target. :v
I don't see why there's a 'sudden hammer stuff' up there because of at most 2 of you being scum. :V
And I stole 2 votes from certain people.
If it doesn't happen, I'm open to suggestions. I could use Bigly on someone (possibly still Tiruin), or I could use Election.I'm actually of the mind to vote you because you're not updating us on your wincon progress :P
As to who I suspect out of who's remaining... pretty much everyone except Tea. In order of who I suspect least to most, though, its TolyK, Tiruin, Hector, Jack, Persus. Though I could not vote if I wanted to right now.
That and when did you get BOTH Election and Bigly when at the time of a MOST PRIOR POST you got only my auto of Balance and nothing of Lenglon-Shakerag; right now you're saying you have TWO things from L/S and that's after I swapped their role.
That means you acted on me lately or otherwise given your Heroes auto. Here. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164260.msg7500587;topicseen#msg7500587)
I only acted on you, ONCE. That's stealing your vote.
Post by: Tiruin on July 02, 2017, 01:25:41 am
I have four abilities: Friendly Neighbour, day action, tell folk I'm town. Used on doll D1, Lengrag D2.>_>
Protect, night action. Used on doll N1, and either Tiruin or TDS N3 (I initially PM'd Tiruin as the target, changed it to TDS, didn't bother asking webadict which was the target after Persus said they disabled TDS' auto watch)
ULTRASUPERDUPERREVIVEMOFOS, night action, 1-shot: revive all players killed during the night, used N2 'cause I'm selfish and thought I was gonna be murdered in the night.
x-shot restorer, phaseless, 1-shot: used D3 on myself.
<_<
This is really poorly detailed fakeclaiming. Also what is "byraway"?
But you've got abilities you can actually do to people right now and aren't using it. Also that revivewhatever isn't even.
Also NONE of this explains your revive last N2 BECAUSE SOMEONE DIED N1 (ok OSG was modkilled and erased but POZZAI was abduct killed so if what you say is true then he was alive between N1 and his N2 'found ded')
:v
Also let's not forget FoU went ded at D2 lynch. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164260.msg7486598#msg7486598)
Also none of your claims have your 'why' reasoning to them so yeah.
>_>
Why did you do anything you did.
You're getting slapped with a trout by TolyK today. :v
Post by: TolyK on July 02, 2017, 02:21:45 am
Still PFP, as not in town. Do we still only have 3 extension votes?
Post by: flabort on July 02, 2017, 02:33:00 am
Right now I have an ability from one living player. You. I don't have any abilities from the remaining living players.If it doesn't happen, I'm open to suggestions. I could use Bigly on someone (possibly still Tiruin), or I could use Election.I'm actually of the mind to vote you because you're not updating us on your wincon progress :P
As to who I suspect out of who's remaining... pretty much everyone except Tea. In order of who I suspect least to most, though, its TolyK, Tiruin, Hector, Jack, Persus. Though I could not vote if I wanted to right now.
That and when did you get BOTH Election and Bigly when at the time of a MOST PRIOR POST you got only my auto of Balance and nothing of Lenglon-Shakerag; right now you're saying you have TWO things from L/S and that's after I swapped their role.
That means you acted on me lately or otherwise given your Heroes auto. Here. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164260.msg7500587;topicseen#msg7500587)
I only acted on you, ONCE. That's stealing your vote.
I clearly got Spiders Everywhere when targeted by TDS on N1. At this point, I don't think anyone targeted me, so all my abilities gained N2 (Bigly, the mafiakill, and Balance) were from using Spiders Everywhere. The ability I gained last night (post roleswap) was from you stealing my vote.
The only other ability I gained from the Heroes auto was Withdrawal which I got when I targeted Doll.
My use of Spiders Everywhere targeting Lenglon-Shakrag (from which I got Bigly), you (Tiruin) (from which I got Balance), and 4maskwolf (I got Monster Within) indicates who TDS's targets have been/were. Those three, plus me. Based on the ability gains, I can deduce at this point that I haven't been targeted by anyone else during the game, unless it was Day 1 before I got my current role. Since I only got targeted by TDS once, and there were three people besides me who had web strands on N2, I can deduce he had targeted 2 people at that point and two people had targeted him. I'm also fairly certain that at that point, nobody had enough strands to reach 5 - however, that was N2. By N3, somebody might have earned 5 strands; though they are gone now, as indicated by TDS's flip.
Post by: hector13 on July 02, 2017, 08:42:47 am
*sigh* no pleasing some people :P
The super revive only revives people who died during the night that I use it, it's not an auto. I used it on N2 'cause I was the biggest scum target after all the people were like "hector's a friendly neighbour y'all" though I was hoping there would be the same degree of murder as there was N1. Past performance doesn't guarantee future results, and all that.
I protected doll N1 'cause I didn't want them to be killed by anyone other than themselves, and I was townreadimg TDS so I chose him as well as the watcher/tracker stuff. Tiruin had the Lakerag stuff, claimed to be LYLO breaking, which is why I initially wanted protected her 'til I thought that taking that role seemed a bit counter to town benefits... I changed my mind.
Friendly neighbour'd doll since I didn't want to be killed N1, Lengrag 'cause I wanted to see how they'd react, and I also wanted to see what the super revive did since the optimum play for them was to reveal that to town, making me a significant target for scumkills. I also wanted to placate Lenglon a bit, the long-ass back and forth between us D2 was unpleasant.
I thought I'd get to use my super revive again at some point, hence using my restore on myself. To be fair it was actually a role reset thing, but in doing that it restored x-shot abilities.
"byraway" is phonetically spelling how Glaswegians say "by the way", kinda.
Also there are seven players left alive, thus 4 votes to hammer. I have three, like, totally implying that scum is already voting for me.
Post by: Tiruin on July 02, 2017, 10:31:49 am
Did anyone read that I have 3 votes and I voted myself and 2 on Hector thus we're 2 votes away from hammering him? <.<
Because I've made it quite obvious that out of the SEVEN people left, there's 2 scum or whatever (Did a read back on Tea/Hector, also did a read back on TDS--I didn't put in mind that we can also take into probability that he didn't use his convert but that abductkill flip and stuff is also tied here :V but it is possible too that he didn't convert yet [ie Scenario for nuking people + 'convert the one with most webstrands'])
Also there are seven players left alive, thus 4 votes to hammer. I have three, like, totally implying that scum is already voting for me.:v
Yes Hector. I'd totally be that mafiadude who abductkills or daykills or whatever. The funny thing is that that abduction kill didn't happen as a daykill but a shadow snapped TDS in half and spiders happened compared to N1/N3.
I'm also conflicted in voting you because I got a really defensive read in a good day, and a rather moreso defensive read in a scum way. :^ And I'm all wondering that--yeah you've a point on trusting the people in the TolyK chat, and I appreciate that (and your humor), but seeing their full actions inasfar as they've stated [Jack/TolyK] per cycle...
I haven't seen anyone else vote people here.
Web: Votecount please
Post by: hector13 on July 02, 2017, 10:42:24 am
Post by: hector13 on July 02, 2017, 10:47:15 am
Post by: Tiruin on July 02, 2017, 10:58:59 am
Tolyk's voting for me brah.wut.
Unvote Hector13; Hector13 (still keep my one vote on Tiruin)
Also Tea, I recall you saying 'testing something with your vote' a ways back on D3 but your fullclaim says nothing about it. What'sup?
Post by: flabort on July 02, 2017, 11:00:29 am
So... >_>Is that how that was meant to be interpreted? I read it as, "vote myself once, then vote hector 5 times, overwriting my vote on myself since I only have 3".
Did anyone read that I have 3 votes and I voted myself and 2 on Hector thus we're 2 votes away from hammering him? <.<
Post by: Tiruin on July 02, 2017, 11:02:51 am
Err, no? I voted Hector multiple times because I wanted to see how it looks on the votecount but always making that 1 vote kept on me o_OSo... >_>Is that how that was meant to be interpreted? I read it as, "vote myself once, then vote hector 5 times, overwriting my vote on myself since I only have 3".
Did anyone read that I have 3 votes and I voted myself and 2 on Hector thus we're 2 votes away from hammering him? <.<
Maybe I should reword those later on. <_< Thanks.
Also hey, you got slapped with a trout :D
Post by: TolyK on July 02, 2017, 01:28:21 pm
Post by: hector13 on July 02, 2017, 02:28:33 pm
Post by: TolyK on July 02, 2017, 03:10:55 pm
Are we getting that extension or not? I think we only have 3 votes for it. I just got back from the middle of nowhere and parse the what-happened posts.
Post by: webadict on July 02, 2017, 05:14:54 pm
Post by: Tea on July 02, 2017, 06:15:16 pm
1) So, flabort's claimed kill on doll N1 pierced hector's claimed protection on doll? flabort, is it your understanding that your kill pierced protection? (Could be results of TolyK's/TBF/4mask's roles I guess, although Persus13claimed an N1 block on TBF?)
2) Tiruin, am not sure what you're remembering and am wondering if you read too far into something non-claim related I was talking about. I have claimed everything about my role and what's happened to me.
Post by: Jack A T on July 02, 2017, 07:03:36 pm
Protect, night action. Used on doll N1Now this is interesting. Flabort does not indicate that his kill pierces protection, so unless I'm missing something, this means that if Hector's truthful, doll died otherwise. That is, by acting. By killing.
I feel confident in saying that we only have one per-cycle nightkiller. One kill each N2 and N3. One kill today. Of the three kills N1, 1 is the abductkill, 1 is doll's death (action was suicidal, and flabort shot), and 1 is not quite explained. Nobody has claimed the shot on Persus, but we've only seen one such extra kill.
I believe our per-cycle nightkiller is the mafia, simply because it would be very strange for it not to be: a mafiateam not killing? Also, there is no sign that failed Monster Withins were used (our scum wasn't getting new third party reads overnight, the cyclic nightkilling was consistent...) and Monster Within is a risky kill.
doll continued to visit the forum after the disinterest post. I recall online periods in the immediate days, and the last time doll was online was the 27th. Based on this and hector's claim, doll took the two shots he intended. They were redirected to Persus13, most likely, as the abductkill seems to be a specific action. Persus13's death was most likely the result of doll's shot.
TolyK is almost certainly not mafia. That said, I'm not sure if he is town or a survivor (specifically a survivor).
Why possibly survivor? His disinterest (particularly in thread) in scumhunting and focus on Everyone Wins is part of it. More important, though, is his willingness to be the last unconverted player in his plan.
Why not mafia? Beyond Fallacy's assault, there's a major reason.
TolyK seems utterly sincere about wanting everyone to win. Few people would carefully plan it out if they didn't want to try it. His plan, though, required a mafioso's cooperation. Before he introduced his plan in the quicktopic, TolyK tried to recruit me:
Spoiler: TolyK Quicktopic post 43 (click to show/hide)
Tiruin is tres townie. Building on my prior read (sans the part where I read too much into her cheering statement), that role swap was an impulsive, unplanned major action of the sort I doubt I would see from damaged scum. TolyK and Lengrag backed up claims about her former role.
flabort played a key role in the death of 4maskwolf and has been a target of the scum since day 1. Somehow, I doubt he's part of the scumteam.
Persus13:
Spoiler: Loose Notes: Persus (click to show/hide)
hector13:
Spoiler: Loose Notes: Hector (click to show/hide)
Overall, hector13 is the towniest-feeling of the
Tea:
Spoiler: Loose Notes: Tea (click to show/hide)
For Tea to be part of the scumteam, there would have to be a good bit of bussing. That is true of most everyone now, though. However, with the possible exception of the early D1 Fallacy push, Tea's bussing would be very safe, for lack of a better term. Votes were on/intended to be on those already on the path to death, whether by strong consensus, unlucky night results, or modkill levels of inactivity. Relatively low-risk to the team.
This was a bit of a tough and long decision, but based on behaviour and on the kill record, I vote Tea.
I agree with most of [Jack's] analysis in the post this quote is from BTW.Tea: Why did you feel the need to tell me this? The "BTW" underlines how small a connection this had to the rest of the post. What was this sentence meant to add?
I very much agree with the second half of Jack's recent post but have been having trouble articulating it.Also, why did you feel the need to say this? It doesn't seem to add much to your statement (although more than the last quote), particularly since you gave your thoughts on handling millers a couple sentences later.
Anyway, the body snatching kill thing happened N1, not on N2, and then on N3. Could be a Balance influenced thing, maybe just coincidence.Hector13: Being aware of why there was no successful kill N2, why did you say this?
Post by: hector13 on July 02, 2017, 07:19:01 pm
You appear to have cut off a sentence at the end of my section in your reads post, was it important?
Post by: Jack A T on July 02, 2017, 07:25:20 pm
You appear to have cut off a sentence at the end of my section in your reads post, was it important?I couldn't come up with a good term to refer to those I didn't place above suspicion, so I left it...and forgot to finish the sentence.
I write good.
Post by: flabort on July 02, 2017, 08:10:20 pm
Am sick and was gonna come extend.Let me reread it.
1) So, flabort's claimed kill on doll N1 pierced hector's claimed protection on doll? flabort, is it your understanding that your kill pierced protection? (Could be results of TolyK's/TBF/4mask's roles I guess, although Persus13claimed an N1 block on TBF?)
Kill a player that aided in your death... provided randomly, or choose, if I fail to choose one it defaults to provided randomly... bypass...
oh! yes. bypasses immunity, protections, blocks, redirections, or hides.
Sad to say but yes, it pierced protection. So Hector's in the clear for that.
Post by: Tea on July 02, 2017, 08:11:41 pm
Here is my fullclaim:[...]Spoiler: kore wa fullclaim des (click to show/hide)
I intend to use (E) to use (D) twice and (A) and (B) some arbitrary number of times on every player in night 1.
I believe doll meant use B/C an arbitrary number of times. If so, I can actually see why the mafia team would knowingly redirect doll to Persus as their partner - doll's single target then revives (with a different role?) and it potentially makes that target unblockable/able to use extra actions the rest of the game, if I'm understanding correctly.
Post by: Jack A T on July 02, 2017, 08:36:22 pm
Sad to say but yes, it pierced protection. So Hector's in the clear for that.flabort: So, we don't know whether doll acted. Damn.
Tea: Huh. Good point, I overlooked that. Hm.Here is my fullclaim:I believe doll meant use B/C an arbitrary number of times. If so, I can actually see why the mafia team would knowingly redirect doll to Persus as their partner - doll's single target then revives (with a different role?) and it potentially makes that target unblockable/able to use extra actions the rest of the game, if I'm understanding correctly.[...]Spoiler: kore wa fullclaim des (click to show/hide)
I intend to use (E) to use (D) twice and (A) and (B) some arbitrary number of times on every player in night 1.
Persus13: Please give more detail on your claim (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164260.msg7499727#msg7499727). What were the names of your lost powers? Does anything distinguish the Third Defenestration from the Second role-wise? Also, do you remember why you blocked TBF N1?
Post by: Tiruin on July 02, 2017, 10:48:44 pm
Am sick and was gonna come extend.It's like, us (Jaques, TolieK, and Tearooine) are working by process of elimination (because it'd be hilarious if any of us are scum given that we literally fullclaimed to each other and planned stuff together >.<), and I'm curious on multiple parts--one is I've snipped out Persus because he died the same day the abductkill was done [and I'm presuming at least 2 anti-town because PROBABLY that abductkill is separate from the mafiakill given the...err, death this day; Night 2, if Hector13 is to be believed, means only HE died but we don't know how he died]
1) So, flabort's claimed kill on doll N1 pierced hector's claimed protection on doll? flabort, is it your understanding that your kill pierced protection? (Could be results of TolyK's/TBF/4mask's roles I guess, although Persus13claimed an N1 block on TBF?)
2) Tiruin, am not sure what you're remembering and am wondering if you read too far into something non-claim related I was talking about. I have claimed everything about my role and what's happened to me.
That said a TWICE OVER revive and a kill only on death is a very...strange claim. Like, out of all the folks who did revive--and I assume 2/3rds of them are town lest my sanity go on the verge of paranoia--literally ALL OF YOU have at least 1 claimed revive, with Hecty and Perzeus being proven to have it. You claimed...two.
So (since nobody is even talking about it on quicktopic HMPF YOU GUYS), I'm leaning on Tea after a lot of thought and reading through the three of you through the thread [thanks post tracker]. >.> No offense Tea.
Quote
doll continued to visit the forum after the disinterest post. I recall online periods in the immediate days, and the last time doll was online was the 27th. Based on this and hector's claim, doll took the two shots he intended. They were redirected to Persus13, most likely, as the abductkill seems to be a specific action. Persus13's death was most likely the result of doll's shot.It's fully doubtful that the abductkill can be disguised as doll's actions :P and he DID say (or at least that's in my notes about doll in D1) that he can be redirected but unblockable...or uh that's in my notes that was updated to mention his claim in D1. >_>
Probably as some kind of soft justification of my read on Tiruin. I'm by no means certain on who I think is scummy, it basically comes down to process of elimination for you and Tea, Tiruin's stealing of Lengrag's role, and I guess Tolyk's lack of engagement with the game. If I had a vote, I'd be voting for you or Tea.Que? :v
You appear to have cut off a sentence at the end of my section in your reads post, was it important?
Balance lets- waaaaait you think I'M THE PERSON who was doing all that?!
Ok first of all, I swapped my role--the thing you start the game with--with Lenglon/Shakerag. I can't be Mafia because they would've known and seen anything related to those things you can suspect me on, in the early days. (Although they didn't claim my role or their miller ability as a list in our quicktopic so I feel somewhat lonely ;~;)
Next is note everything in Doll's claim, everyone (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164260.msg7480773#msg7480773).
...I had a note on the REDACTED bit by saying it may be connected to someone else but that was a 'guess' note >_>
But points:
> If he used his unblockable or action boost ability; nobody knows if it was used on them (unless...they can? Webadict: If someone was acted upon with an ability that permanently boosts them, do they get any message?)
> He wanted to kill people so he would die. So he went to kill two people, despite the two abilities he had being super more useful. o_O Probably because he was bitter (Hah, coffee)
> He could've still used those two other actions because by using Transcendence, he does pretty much die (which lets him 2-shot and otherwise so that's moot), but that means he could've done all 4 actions and die [as well as wiping out both 2 other people]
Webadict: If a person gets killed, but has a revive, what would've happened if there were TWO simultaneous kills used on them? (Because if the redirection theory is correct, that counts as two kills. Two unblockable and anything piercing kills, as redirects go before kills in the action order)
Post by: Tea on July 03, 2017, 05:22:10 am
Am sick and was gonna come extend.It's like, us (Jaques, TolieK, and Tearooine) are working by process of elimination (because it'd be hilarious if any of us are scum given that we literally fullclaimed to each other and planned stuff together >.<), and I'm curious on multiple parts--one is I've snipped out Persus because he died the same day the abductkill was done [and I'm presuming at least 2 anti-town because PROBABLY that abductkill is separate from the mafiakill given the...err, death this day; Night 2, if Hector13 is to be believed, means only HE died but we don't know how he died]
1) So, flabort's claimed kill on doll N1 pierced hector's claimed protection on doll? flabort, is it your understanding that your kill pierced protection? (Could be results of TolyK's/TBF/4mask's roles I guess, although Persus13claimed an N1 block on TBF?)
2) Tiruin, am not sure what you're remembering and am wondering if you read too far into something non-claim related I was talking about. I have claimed everything about my role and what's happened to me.
That said a TWICE OVER revive and a kill only on death is a very...strange claim. Like, out of all the folks who did revive--and I assume 2/3rds of them are town lest my sanity go on the verge of paranoia--literally ALL OF YOU have at least 1 claimed revive, with Hecty and Perzeus being proven to have it. You claimed...two.
So (since nobody is even talking about it on quicktopic HMPF YOU GUYS), I'm leaning on Tea after a lot of thought and reading through the three of you through the thread [thanks post tracker]. >.> No offense Tea.
Are you mixing up my claim with Persus's?
I have /one/ 1-shot revive auto that reloads every cycle. Persus is the one that claimed that he gets 2 total revives, one of which was used up. I gain access to my currently unusable abilities the first time I die (and am revived), which didn't occur to me was possible until you mentioned it, but I did confirm it with Webadict.
I was theorizing that the abductkill was an x-shot special mafiakill until you pointed out the cycle stipulation with the mafiakill. I believe that means that there was no mafiakill N3 given the rules change+D4 kill combo.
Has Hector used any Friendly Neighbor shots since he claimed to reset his role? Would mostly prove he isn't the person who daykilled if nothing else.
I seem not to be able to nest spoilers, sooo quotewall here we go.
Persus13:A strange D1 (a Fallacy vote detached from the rest of his daygame, with more focus on flabort) mitigated somewhat by good votes D2 and D3. Not the best activity record. However, Persus appears to have been where doll's kill was redirected.Spoiler: Loose Notes: Persus (click to show/hide)
hector13:hector13's scumhunt frustrations feel real, his behaviour towards the scumteam has been quite antagonistic (it would be an awful lot of distancing), and that last D3 post makes him look very unaware of 4mask's abilities. Also, there's the death/revive. His lack of votes days 2 and 3 is alarming, though.Spoiler: Loose Notes: Hector (click to show/hide)
Overall, hector13 is the towniest-feeling of the
Tea:There are parts of Tea's post history that look good. Consistency in fighting the scumteam, in particular. However, there are problems. The D1 flabort vote, and in particular its end-of-day handling (lost much of its base, but it was kept for testing flabort's revive claim), comes off as less than legitimate: why hold that vote? The D3 vote sat on non-playing scum careening towards a modkill, although the vote was held in part to avoid a hammer. I also can't shake the feeling that I was buddied a bit (see questions below).Spoiler: Loose Notes: Tea (click to show/hide)
For Tea to be part of the scumteam, there would have to be a good bit of bussing. That is true of most everyone now, though. However, with the possible exception of the early D1 Fallacy push, Tea's bussing would be very safe, for lack of a better term. Votes were on/intended to be on those already on the path to death, whether by strong consensus, unlucky night results, or modkill levels of inactivity. Relatively low-risk to the team.
This was a bit of a tough and long decision, but based on behaviour and on the kill record, I vote Tea.I agree with most of [Jack's] analysis in the post this quote is from BTW.Tea: Why did you feel the need to tell me this? The "BTW" underlines how small a connection this had to the rest of the post. What was this sentence meant to add?I very much agree with the second half of Jack's recent post but have been having trouble articulating it.Also, why did you feel the need to say this? It doesn't seem to add much to your statement (although more than the last quote), particularly since you gave your thoughts on handling millers a couple sentences later.Anyway, the body snatching kill thing happened N1, not on N2, and then on N3. Could be a Balance influenced thing, maybe just coincidence.Hector13: Being aware of why there was no successful kill N2, why did you say this?
So.
Agreed that Hector is incredibly unlikely to be mafia. Personally, beyond his friendly neighbor night action and his claim that he isn't sure whether he protected Tiruin/TDS, I feel like I have no real behavioral reason not to 3P read him. What sort of valuation do you put on those/similar things?
Regarding Persus: Stated TBF/FoU preferred lynches mid-to-late day are risky for mafia (more active shade of Pozzai/flabort/etc. there would seem to be more pro-mafia wincon), other than that I'm...actually not sure his interactions there are very clearing. As far as D2, I actually didn't like the shade (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164260.msg7483326#msg7483326) here from D2 directed at flabort/hector, seems a bit on-the-nose/overly uppity. I find the FoU vote in the same pretty null, esp considering 4mask's awkward last minute bus progression there.
What I remember about my mindset for voting flabort D1 in the first place:
- doll's string of posts here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164260.msg7475488#msg7475488) greatly influenced and preceded my vote, so your note that my vote preceded <w/e doll thing> seems, uh, a tad context deaf?
- The vote was partly a PoE vote - I felt flabort was likely to flip some shade of scum by virtue of not doing things that seemed town, and due to doll's strong conviction that he would interfere with doll's abilities, was fine with me.
- When I initially voted I wasn't completely clear on whether we had enough votes to extend or whether a majority of votes being on one person were needed to not have the end in no lynch
What I remember about my mindset for leaving the vote:
- When flabort first came back, I was really stunned as to how I was being categorized as either a spammer or someone ruining the game via personal attacks. It became clear later that he somehow went from having a read/gut feeling on me that was clearly distinct from his reads on doll and Pozzai in his wall of reads, to less than 48 hours later mixing me up with both of them and demonizing all 3 of us for, uh, daring to get on his lawn? He was obviously incredibly upset/frustrated by being suspected for inactivity-related health reasons - but being self-righteous about that can come, validly, from any alignment. One can have a more difficult time projecting town due to non-game-related reasons and still be mafia. He claimed that lynching him would flip him and revive him, and if that were really true I thought that it would be really good for game health to have someone who was so frustrated by being suspected potentially be able to be confirmed and still live/be able to relax+cooperate more, because I just...didn't know how to begin to understand or question someone who had suddenly shifted to demonizing me so incomprehensibly. (It took me until, liiike, end of D3(?) for all the emotions on my end to completely die down and for me to really get to a read on him).
- I had some doubts about flabort actually being able to flip, though, considering that I had a revive ability and couldn't. I started trying to kind of work through what that could mean toward day end - was wondering if he was Judas or otherwise lying/wrong, and wanted it sorted.
- I truly was fine with lynching FoU as well.
As far as the buddying accusations:
1) I was really glad you noticed the quote timing, which had me thinking of you positively. I felt a vague sense of solidarity with your conclusion that there frustrating wasn't much to get from FoU's own posts having reread besides TolyK stuff, though his posts did affect my reads to a greater extent. Kinda same deal with 4mask/Tiruin, was glad to see someone interested in pressuring in those directions (esp 4mask) since those were the 2 that had the worst FoU interactions that I personally felt like I'd get the least from trying to question myself. I considered expanding that I didn't find hector's lack of follow-up on FoU suspicious + that I wasn't sure I agreed that DarkStar's scumread of FoU was significant since he seemed to scumread basically everyone/he had a relatively soft way of phrasing his FoU suspicions in general. Idr if it was tactical or due to laziness that I didn't expand more; maybe both.
2) I spend more time than it prob seems like refreshing the thread and trying to put things into words; that was a part of the game where that was especially a thing - top townread (hector) starting a really obstinate argument with 2nd from top townread (Lengrag); wanted things directed elsewhere but was a bit braindead. Your post was like a jumper cable for getting my thoughts out, which I was appreciative of. First half I disagreed with b/c I didn't see hector as having scummy intent at the time, which I went on to explain in the next paragraph.
I've outlined my suspicion of your D1 play in greater detail in this post (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164260.msg7499274#msg7499274), and I'm curious why that didn't make it into your summary, and just that in a previous post ~I have no scumreads~.
You voted flabort here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164260.msg7475303#msg7475303) about 12 hours before the original deadline without voting for an extension (at least not that was counted by the mod). To what extent were you fine with being lynched then?
Post by: Jack A T on July 03, 2017, 07:03:52 pm
Webadict: If a person gets killed, but has a revive, what would've happened if there were TWO simultaneous kills used on them?Tiruin: Asked and answered:
Webadict: Alright, thank you. Also, as it was missed: If in one night two kill actions hit a player with a one-shot autorevive, what happens?Revives will happen at the end, so both kills succeed, kill the player, and then the player revives. Assuming no other actions.
Tea:
On Hector: Friendly Neighbour, like other powers that declare their owner/user to be town, tells me little about his alignment. Webadict has given scum similar powers before (BYOR 4), and I don't expect much limitation. It does give a somewhat public action record, though. The claim uncertainty feels real, but I get my town-specific read (not just non-mafia) more from the feeling that he was legitimately frustrated in his efforts to scumhunt (the TBF and Lenglon interactions in particular), indicating legitimate scumhunting. At some level, frustration with TBF is expected, but that one post (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164260.msg7477048#msg7477048) is noteworthy for how it oozes rage, rage at dealing with a brick wall. A scumhunter's frustration more than a teammate's frustration.
On Persus: I wouldn't say anything he's done is clearing, especially with doll's actions once again unconfirmed and the possible redirect less meaningful than I thought. The FoU vote D2 comes off much better than 4mask's (less awkward, and at a time when there were sort of competitive lynch options), but as I said, it only somewhat mitigates the strange D1 voting/hunting behaviour, in which his words and his vote are on different wagons.
Quote from: Tea
- doll's string of posts here greatly influenced and preceded my vote, so your note that my vote preceded <w/e doll thing> seems, uh, a tad context deaf?The note about doll's thing is because I see that particular thing as key context for most of the day's activities. Before doll set his plan in stone (when there was still a bit of an open question as to who he would kill), I see votes as more meaningfully tied to top suspicion. It's somewhat disruptive to standard voting practice.
I've outlined my suspicion of your D1 play in greater detail in this post (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164260.msg7499274#msg7499274), and I'm curious why that didn't make it into your summary, and just that in a previous post ~I have no scumreads~.Because you have no scumreads.
The post you link to is an extension of thoughts, positions, and logic from your read list, where I was not most scummy, but least townish. You never say you think I'm mafia; you say that you could see me as mafia. You speak of non-implausibility of me being scum, rather than likelihood. You hold your vote at arm's length, with limited commitment. This is a classic method of distancing oneself from one's vote and from the results of a lynch, though it can also be uncertainty. It's something that makes me raise an eyebrow, particularly when it continues in your more detailed comments.
That said, you seem to imply here that you do have a scumread of me. Do you have a scumread of me?
You voted flabort here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164260.msg7475303#msg7475303) about 12 hours before the original deadline without voting for an extension (at least not that was counted by the mod). To what extent were you fine with being lynched then?Looking back, your timing is wrong.
At the time of that post, it was about 9:00 PM my time (Pacific Daylight), 10:00 PM CST (11:00 PM forum time, CDT), hence my note about no more posting that night. The day was scheduled to end in about 22 hours. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164260.msg7476121#msg7476121) I think you misread a PM as an AM.
You make a lot of that 12-hour idea. How does the actual timing change your position?
As for my vote, I was comfortable with my vote where it was, and comfortable with the lynch, particularly since I had time (to sleep, especially). I would not have voted for it if I was not.
As far as the buddying accusations:Hm. You mention having substantial disagreements with me that were not emphasized, or were largely left out. Emphasis of agreement and de-emphasis of disagreement.
[...]
If I might ask one thing, because I think I might be on to something: to what extent was this a product of you just not wanting to go through another dispute like the D1 clusterfuck between us?
Quote from: Tea
I was theorizing that the abductkill was an x-shot special mafiakill until [Tiruin] pointed out the cycle stipulation with the mafiakill. I believe that means that there was no mafiakill N3 given the rules change+D4 kill combo.I am quite doubtful. Having to skip killing for a cycle to take advantage of the daykill power would be strange, and in the past, when such a restriction was in place, it was an explicit part of the relevant power (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=76054.675) (see Ottofar). Let's quickly check, though:
Webadict: Say the mafia mafiakilled N3. With Spectator mode added, would they be able to mafiakill D4?
Post by: webadict on July 04, 2017, 12:20:44 am
Day is extended to Thursday, due to the awesome holiday tomorrow.
Post by: webadict on July 04, 2017, 09:57:47 pm
------------------------
flabort -
hector13 -
Jack A T -
Persus13 -
Tea - Jack A T,
Tiruin - Tiruin,
TolyK -
No Lynch -
Not Voting - Persus13, Tea, TolyK,
4 To Hammer. Day Ends on Thursday, July 6th around 8:00 PM CST. There is no Extension available.
Post by: webadict on July 04, 2017, 10:00:29 pm
> If he used his unblockable or action boost ability; nobody knows if it was used on them (unless...they can? Webadict: If someone was acted upon with an ability that permanently boosts them, do they get any message?)1. No.
> He wanted to kill people so he would die. So he went to kill two people, despite the two abilities he had being super more useful. o_O Probably because he was bitter (Hah, coffee)
> He could've still used those two other actions because by using Transcendence, he does pretty much die (which lets him 2-shot and otherwise so that's moot), but that means he could've done all 4 actions and die [as well as wiping out both 2 other people]
Webadict: If a person gets killed, but has a revive, what would've happened if there were TWO simultaneous kills used on them? (Because if the redirection theory is correct, that counts as two kills. Two unblockable and anything piercing kills, as redirects go before kills in the action order)
2. They are killed, and then they revive. Assuming no other actions.
Webadict: Say the mafia mafiakilled N3. With Spectator mode added, would they be able to mafiakill D4?Yes, they can.
Post by: webadict on July 04, 2017, 10:00:45 pm
Post by: flabort on July 05, 2017, 01:53:39 am
Sorry for the late updates, guys. I've been mega-busy.Psh. Don't worry about it.
So I got approached by Hector using his ability that tells me he's town. And another day ability got used on me, and I know who used it.
I think this time I'll refrain from saying exactly what abilities I gained, unless asked. But I'm 99% sure which ability came from who.
So could someone remind me of Hector's claim? I want to see if the ability I got matches up with it.
Post by: Jack A T on July 05, 2017, 02:04:21 am
I have four abilities: Friendly Neighbour, day action, tell folk I'm town. Used on doll D1, Lengrag D2.
Protect, night action. Used on doll N1, and either Tiruin or TDS N3 (I initially PM'd Tiruin as the target, changed it to TDS, didn't bother asking webadict which was the target after Persus said they disabled TDS' auto watch)
ULTRASUPERDUPERREVIVEMOFOS, night action, 1-shot: revive all players killed during the night, used N2 'cause I'm selfish and thought I was gonna be murdered in the night.
x-shot restorer, phaseless, 1-shot: used D3 on myself.
Post by: Tiruin on July 05, 2017, 02:07:08 am
Can you finally UPDATEDLY fullclaim rather than quote a claim that's a day late?Sorry for the late updates, guys. I've been mega-busy.Psh. Don't worry about it.
So I got approached by Hector using his ability that tells me he's town. And another day ability got used on me, and I know who used it.
I think this time I'll refrain from saying exactly what abilities I gained, unless asked. But I'm 99% sure which ability came from who.
So could someone remind me of Hector's claim? I want to see if the ability I got matches up with it.
PFP
Reading over Persus and Tea and Hector AGAIN :I
Also being I: at Flabort.
Post by: flabort on July 05, 2017, 02:18:32 am
I don't see what's wrong with the claims I have been making? Including the quotes, they have been complete at the time.Can you finally UPDATEDLY fullclaim rather than quote a claim that's a day late?Sorry for the late updates, guys. I've been mega-busy.Psh. Don't worry about it.
So I got approached by Hector using his ability that tells me he's town. And another day ability got used on me, and I know who used it.
I think this time I'll refrain from saying exactly what abilities I gained, unless asked. But I'm 99% sure which ability came from who.
So could someone remind me of Hector's claim? I want to see if the ability I got matches up with it.
PFP
Reading over Persus and Tea and Hector AGAIN :I
Also being I: at Flabort.
But I can remind you. I am Peter Petrelli. I have Heroes, Auto, which gains me abilities when targeted or when I target someone. I used the oneshot that I started with to kill Doll, which could only be used on someone who had aided in my first death, but pierced everything except revives. N1 I gained spiders everywhere, which gave web strands to everyone who had one, and I used it on N2. Also on N1 I gained Withdrawal, which turns me into Caffeine Withdrawal on death and redacts itself. I don't know what Caffeine Withdrawal does, but I assume it gives the abilities listed in Doll's flip. N3 I gained three abilities, probably from using web strands. The first was Bigly, from Lenglon/Shakerag, and it steals a vote. The second was Monster Within, the mafiakill which I can't use because I'm town, but it's a body-snatch. The third was Balance, from you, which makes it so I can't use the same ability twice in a row. N3 I tried to use Bigly on Tea, but they hid and it failed, so I still have that. I also gained Election, which you have, from you stealing my vote.
And finally, just now, I gained an ability from Hector's day action and TolyK's day action. Hectors is a protect, TolyK's was one he copied from someone else.
flabort: Hector's claim:Well, that seems fine. I got the second one of those abilities, and it's called The Best Medicine. I think Hector's probably town.I have four abilities: Friendly Neighbour, day action, tell folk I'm town. Used on doll D1, Lengrag D2.
Protect, night action. Used on doll N1, and either Tiruin or TDS N3 (I initially PM'd Tiruin as the target, changed it to TDS, didn't bother asking webadict which was the target after Persus said they disabled TDS' auto watch)
ULTRASUPERDUPERREVIVEMOFOS, night action, 1-shot: revive all players killed during the night, used N2 'cause I'm selfish and thought I was gonna be murdered in the night.
x-shot restorer, phaseless, 1-shot: used D3 on myself.
Which leaves Tea and Persus, basically, right?
Post by: Tiruin on July 05, 2017, 02:32:35 am
[sneep]So only I targeted you last night :v
And you got two things from two others.
And Hector FINALLY used his day stuff on someone but not mentioning what he did on D3? :P [I believe I might've missed it but it's not in my recall]
Which leaves Tea and Persus, basically, right?Literally an either/or situation because they both CLAIMED revives if either is lynched :V
Still reading up on them but I'm all umpf here, and feeling that one was fakeclaimed (or real claimed since, in checking the mafia flippers, none of them have a revive <_> OR IT WAS FLABORT WITH MAGIC ABILITY INSPECTY POWERS but yeah)
Because ruling out Hector, Tea is the only person that would've done the abductkill (and she targeted her buddy too ;~;) since Persus went ded on N1.
Post by: flabort on July 05, 2017, 02:49:53 am
Yes. I told you that when I quoted stuff. :P Silly Tiruin.[sneep]So only I targeted you last night :v
And you got two things from two others.
And Hector FINALLY used his day stuff on someone but not mentioning what he did on D3? :P [I believe I might've missed it but it's not in my recall]
Hmm. Where did they claim revives? That is vital information that I had missed. And definitely useful. Actually, I'll go look at their posts in isolation now, don't tell me I want to find it myself now.Which leaves Tea and Persus, basically, right?Literally an either/or situation because they both CLAIMED revives if either is lynched :V
Still reading up on them but I'm all umpf here, and feeling that one was fakeclaimed (or real claimed since, in checking the mafia flippers, none of them have a revive <_> OR IT WAS FLABORT WITH MAGIC ABILITY INSPECTY POWERS but yeah)
Because ruling out Hector, Tea is the only person that would've done the abductkill (and she targeted her buddy too ;~;) since Persus went ded on N1.
Until I get back from looking at that,
Tea, Persus
The best way to prove your towniness to me right now is to either target me asap or let me know your role name; either one, and I'll be able to confirm against your claims which of you is telling the truth by tomorrow. If it's not too late for you.
Post by: flabort on July 05, 2017, 03:27:16 am
Persus (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164260.msg7497970#msg7497970) Disabled TDS's autos the night before, and then later in the day TDS flips third party. He also has a lame read on Tea; I get that, but rather than reading them as nuetral or null, they FoS them. Mentions how, "If someone is daykilled, it may clear things up", idicative of a lack of knowledge about whether a mafia exists still or not; could be faked, but unlikely.
Persus's claim. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164260.msg7499727#msg7499727)Tried to block TBF N1, was killed and revived due to a two shot auto which changed his role. Has a 1-shot randomize day action. Claims if he dies he'll revive as the Third Defenestration. Can be confirmed if he uses the 1-shot randomize on me right now.
Tea (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164260.msg7501582#msg7501582) Correcting Tiruin on their claim, about mixing it up with Persus's. Says their revive reloads every cycle, so we would need a night kill to kill them? Seems rather unrealistic. Responds to jack about buddying, and is very verbose explaining two passing comments.
Tea (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164260.msg7498191#msg7498191) just complaining about being suspected. Immediately after, Tiruin reminds them of their claim of having abilities while dead.
Tea (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164260.msg7498179#msg7498179) full claims, including role name. Calander Man. I can use my ability from TolyK (who had copied it from Tiruin before she roleswapped) to investigate them and learn for sure if they are town if they aren't lynched today. 1-shot auto that revives on death, reloads 1 cycle after being used. Hide ability, which I can confirm, and a kill and vote that can be used after death. Claims not to have used an action N1 or N2, hid on N3.
I'm all for a Tea lynch, at this point. The second linked Tea post contradicts the third linked tea post, or more accurately Tiruin's interpretation contradicts it. However, their lack of action on N1 and N2 doesn't make sense to me; why not use their hide both nights if it's not N-shot?
I'm suspecting Persus is telling the truth, but I'd like him to try and use his claimed day ability on me before we lynch anyone so that we can confirm his alignment.
Post by: Tiruin on July 05, 2017, 03:33:16 am
[...]Persus13 has two (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164260.msg7499727;topicseen#msg7499727) (sorry Tea x.x)Hmm. Where did they claim revives? That is vital information that I had missed. And definitely useful. Actually, I'll go look at their posts in isolation now, don't tell me I want to find it myself now.Which leaves Tea and Persus, basically, right?Literally an either/or situation because they both CLAIMED revives if either is lynched :V
Still reading up on them but I'm all umpf here, and feeling that one was fakeclaimed (or real claimed since, in checking the mafia flippers, none of them have a revive <_> OR IT WAS FLABORT WITH MAGIC ABILITY INSPECTY POWERS but yeah)
Because ruling out Hector, Tea is the only person that would've done the abductkill (and she targeted her buddy too ;~;) since Persus went ded on N1.
Until I get back from looking at that,[...]
And T (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164260.msg7498179#msg7498179)ea (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164260.msg7501582#msg7501582) has one, and Hector13 used his, and coincidentally Hector reminds me of Toaster due to their age and communication style. :O
And now I feel bad because I may have been disrespectful in hindsight in my games to other people and sorry .-.;
I think this was Hector13 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164260.msg7500445#msg7500445)'s fullclaim (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164260.msg7500811#msg7500811) as far as I recall.
PPE HUMPFF you got to it before I clicked post, thanks! :I
I'm suspecting Persus is telling the truth, but I'd like him to try and use his claimed day ability on me before we lynch anyone so that we can confirm his alignment.Persus has a day- *reads*
Quote
and a one-shot randomize day actionOh so he's the SECOND defenestration of prague now!
Hum, if Persy does that, he's confirmed since it seems the Mafiakill was a day kill on TDS
Post by: Tea on July 05, 2017, 04:16:05 am
Tiruin: Hector claimed using his role reset thingy on D3.
Well, here was a part of a post I made two days ago that I thought was invalidated by the one mafiakill allowed per cycle thing in the OP:
Quote from: OldTea
FallacyOfUrist had the following: (1-Shot, Mafiakill) Server Ban [target]: Kill the target. If the target would resurrect, you steal that ability first.
4maskwolf had the following: (1-Shot, Mafiakill) The Monster Within [target]: Convert the target to your alignment. If this action succeeds, you die and give the player this role. You roleflip as the converted player’s role and alignment.
I suspect that the abduction kill, rather than stemming from a 3rd party, is actually an (X-Shot, Mafiakill) [target] that kills the target and delays their flip for one phase. Mafiakills having weird effects seeming to be a theme is my main reason for feeling that way.
If this is the case, then this very likely means that doll was redirected to kill Persus, and that one of the following things occurred N2:
-> (1) The Monster Within was used on hector, who had good interactions with flipped scum and had used a friendly neighbor abilities; he could fakeclaim that 4mask's initial monster role had a roleswapping thing (similar to Tiruin's initial role)
-> (2) Mafia!TBF's X-Shot was used
-> (3) For whatever reason, they just regularly mafia killed or something else I don't understand
If I'm incorrect, then (FMPOV) the 3P abduction killer is always either Hector (due to not being confirmed as doing anything else N1/N3) or Persus (only person who is confirmed as doing other things that I'm not convinced by their claim that they're unlikely to be able to do multiple actions in one phase). If I am correct and it's from the mafia, then it's either Persus or Jack
~
Having looked up the wikipedia article for the Prague Defenestrations, it's not intuitive to me why the first one would be associated with protect/block, so I'd like flavor explanations for that from Persus.
Flabort - I'm Calendar Man, as previously claimed. I do not currently have any usable abilities that can target other people. I will have to ask how my absentee vote, which I receive after dying once, would interact with your role (whether it just counts as me targeting the vote count, or would count as targeting you). I believe Persus also claimed his role name today.
Jack:
The top tier of my reads list meant "if I knew for a fact that mafia was the only antitown faction remaining in this game, I would be content literally never lynching these people."
Next tier was like, I feel like I have good reasons to believe these two are not mafia (Persus would be hellbussing + assumption that he was killed by the mafia N1; DarkStar<->TBF interactions looked great), but also some reservations.
Your tier was like, I can see how the pushes you made D1-D3 are pro-scum. But I don't find your manner of play anywhere near as actively implausible coming from a town perspective as any flipped mafia. To say it another way, with the axioms I went into the day with, you best fit as a fourth scum, but I wasn't/am not totally confident that those axioms were the right ones.
I don't have access to the same information that TolyK and Tiruin do that makes them townread you. I wish they'd expand upon that rather than just being like, "it'd be funny/sad if he's scum cuz we're planning together!" "we made lots of posts so I think we're all town" etc.
I think I'm at, like, 65/33/2 on Persus/ Jack / {others} being mafia ATM? I think Persus's claim is scummier, my gut thinks Persus is most likely to shoot DarkStar there, I think I mainly townread him but for dying N1 which I have my doubts about now, and I don't like his lazy stance on me today.
flabort- If I'm lynched, it doesn't reload until the end of the next day. So I can die forever from being lynched two days in a row, in addition to what you were saying. Blame Web if you don't like how it's worded!
Jack: It being 22 hours instead of 12 hours somewhat explains why you didn't extend even though Toly was p pro extension. I feel that it's odd that you weren't more focused on the extension bc you didn't post again until after [original DL] hit, but it's less slam dunk odd.
Wrt not emphasizing disagreements- the things I disagreed with you about I was either (1) already explaining/you were engaging with me about (that I was seeing non-TolyK-related alignment indicative stuff) or (2) perceiving as preliminary-ish impressions on your end that I was more interested in just seeing where they went? If I was avoiding conflict with you it was a subconscious thing.
Post by: Tea on July 05, 2017, 04:30:35 am
I didn't hide N2 because Lengrag had said that they could give me my vote back, which I didn't want to interfere with.
Post by: flabort on July 05, 2017, 04:33:02 am
flabort: As previously explained, I didn't hide N1 because if I were to be nightkilled I thought it would be more useful to know that and be somewhat more vulnerable than to have hid from it. I also wasn't really expecting to be the target of anything super negative bc I felt like most people were reading me as "new and seems ok"; not who scum or 3P would wanna really cripple. I ended up getting my vote stolen, which made me really mad.Well, N2 you were bamboozled, because unless made permanent a stolen vote goes back at the end of a day.
I didn't hide N2 because Lengrag had said that they could give me my vote back, which I didn't want to interfere with.
Post by: hector13 on July 05, 2017, 06:47:26 am
Lots of activity through the night.
I did use my x-shot restorer/role reset thing on D3.
Post by: Tiruin on July 05, 2017, 10:46:13 am
[lots of ideas and a good query on me and TolyK poking Jack as town reads that aren't probably that refined in public]It's more like, I've a full mason-ish log of them two. I see them interacting that claims and confirms things done at night [ie TolyK going "I received this! from you", and Jack is, as he claimed back there {Bad net, can't link due to not loading; searchword: "Rifle"}, a giver of things]
I think I'm at, like, 65/33/2 on Persus/ Jack / {others} being mafia ATM? I think Persus's claim is scummier, my gut thinks Persus is most likely to shoot DarkStar there, I think I mainly townread him but for dying N1 which I have my doubts about now, and I don't like his lazy stance on me today.[lots of nice ideas]
That's what co-confirms me on the both of them UNLESS ONE OF THEM IS A THIRD-PARTEE O_O but that's my humor paranoia'ing me
Otherwise, could I question your vote target? If Persus was who you believe he is...what can you explain the abduct-kill on?
Post by: Tea on July 05, 2017, 01:37:36 pm
Given that the mafiakill was able to be done in addition to a separate action until the start of this Day phase, I'm not sure why ability confirmation is clearing -- or is it the manner of speaking about it that you think well of? What in the Mason type log is something that you especially think Jack is unlikely to come up with as mafia?
I no longer think Hector has much 3P equity as I dunno why he'd have a protection ability in that case! Has that ever been a thing?
Post by: TolyK on July 05, 2017, 02:14:30 pm
Post by: webadict on July 05, 2017, 06:41:20 pm
Where has hector13 gone? She was here just a second ago.
You ask the Narrator to locate her, but I can't. I don't know where she went! She probably died!
This... This isn't good. Something foul runs amuck in Sundown.
hector13 has been killed!
hector13 cannot be found!
Votes Reset.
Vote Count
------------------------
flabort -
Jack A T -
Persus13 -
Tea -
Tiruin -
TolyK -
No Lynch -
Not Voting - Persus13, Tea, TolyK, Jack A T, Tiruin,
4 To Hammer. Day Ends on Thursday, July 6th around 8:00 PM CST. There is no Extension available.
Post by: flabort on July 05, 2017, 07:47:43 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Seriously, though, two daykills in one day? Not good. Webadict With the daykill happening so close to the end of the day, I think the extend availability counter should have been reset with the votes. And if it does, I call for an extend.
Seriously. Who killed TDS, and who killed Hector? If one of those belonged to a townie that would have been nice, but nooooo, we have neither kill being claimed, and there's only two people who's claims haven't been confirmed one way or the other by inspects and copies etc. I think between Tea and Persus, one might be an SK and the other mafia, now.
Way to keep the game interesting until the end, Wuba. I am wracking my brains for some way to resolve this.
Post by: webadict on July 05, 2017, 08:23:50 pm
Post by: Tea on July 05, 2017, 08:29:16 pm
Maybe a dead player killed TDS??
Post by: Jack A T on July 05, 2017, 09:10:22 pm
Tiruin is neither killer, role vetted by Lengrag. TolyK spent his day action. Hector spent his day action and definitely isn't the abductkiller. Flabort is not mafia, and while I cannot outright rule out him being the other killer, burning a kill on doll N1 seems a very wasteful hostile move and what we've seen of his role has been trustworthy.
That leaves two people for two killers. (PPE: Or a corpse shot TDS, but I'm not seeing who it would be in that case. TBF has the most open flip, but he hasn't been online since before the day started.) I think I have pretty good odds here. Still, I should be careful in voting. We know the mafia can kill every cycle. We don't know if the other killer can as well. Best to go after the most likely mafioso first.
Tea troubles me. The buddying feeling has weakened, but the voting behaviour is still off and scum-consistent. However, I am more troubled by Persus. My thoughts on Persus had been shifting for a bit before this. The main factor protecting Persus, his death, grew weaker and now is weaker still. Having searched through historical BYOR roles several times this game (we need an easy-to-browse archive), I'm increasingly wondering about his claim: losing almost every action after the first death makes play unusually dull afterwards. Unusually harsh for Webadict. The D1 voting behaviour is also quite off: voting for Fallacy, but focusing in-thread on flabort. Supporting the latter wagon from the outside, effectively. Great position for mafia when dealing with a wagon rolling well.
So, I'm voting Persus.
Responses later, after dinner and whatever else.
Tea: Any idea who that dead player could be? I'm not seeing any likely ones.
Webadict: Please prod Persus.
Post by: Persus13 on July 05, 2017, 09:39:06 pm
Flabort, I'll target you with my randomize.
Post by: Tea on July 05, 2017, 10:32:17 pm
Tea: Any idea who that dead player could be? I'm not seeing any likely ones.
4mask (or, less likely, FoU) could have a post-death day/mafiakill.
One of TBF's partners may have been able to talk Web into letting them submit a night action on his behalf (idk if there's any precedent for that on this site, but I've seen it happen elsewhere).
I suppose Pozzai could have one but I find it unlikely he'd have waited so long to use it.
If doll killed Persus/someone and Persus/someone has a daykill, doll could have copied that per one of his claimed abilities, but I feel like doll would have most likely used it sooner and on a different person under those circumstances.
Post by: TolyK on July 06, 2017, 12:52:25 am
Post by: Tiruin on July 06, 2017, 12:55:23 am
2 more to hammer Perzeus. hope he's not actually a god in disguise.
Tiruin
Also I suspect something happened but gotta boop webadict
Post by: Jack A T on July 06, 2017, 01:26:35 am
I no longer think Hector has much 3P equity as I dunno why he'd have a protection ability in that case! Has that ever been a thing?Rarely, but yes. BYOR 9 had an SK-ally with a one-shot that made the target unkillable for a cycle. BYOR 4 had a survivor with a more classic protect integrated into a secondary wincon.
Jack: It being 22 hours instead of 12 hours somewhat explains why you didn't extend even though Toly was p pro extension. I feel that it's odd that you weren't more focused on the extension bc you didn't post again until after [original DL] hit, but it's less slam dunk odd.I had mixed feelings about the extension at the time, if I recall correctly. There was still stuff to do in the day, but morale (mine included) was low and declining. Exhaustion, frustration, anger all over. Extension would be useful, but it would prolong and worsen anti-town and non-fun conditions. Sleepily decided to wait and see: flabort had time, I had time. Had I come back on with no extension and no flabort response, I probably would have voted to extend, but since there was an extension, I took the day off.
Webadict: Can scumteam members submit actions on behalf of teammates?
Post by: Tiruin on July 06, 2017, 09:05:13 am
Because~ I had a redirect n-shot; and SADLY GIVEN TIMING, it got processed when webby was online :v
Because that was early in the day, and it was onto Hector13.
Hah, they're totally buying my overt defense claims \o/ Thanks Lenglon-Shakerag. That worked well.
Now I can be killed in the night though .-.; the only thing that that scuffle with L-S was, was that it blocked inspects but n-shot defended from kills.
Soooo Persus13. Any last words before you revive? :V
Meaning we're not shortening nor hammering so take your time I:
Spending time. :I
And Tea is that weird abduct-killer.
Post by: Tiruin on July 06, 2017, 09:47:05 am
In the least this is a snippet I'm posting in public.
Quote
Does anyone understand why my messages are at times, being BLOCKED from posting even if there's no URL? There's no explanation and I have to go back and ctrl+a/c this to just save what I write :/*COUGH* [/totallyovert]
I even had the time to copy, paste, save in offline notepad++, and copy how uninformative it is.
Your message has been blocked. Please wait 2 seconds for the next page to display.
Thanks Quicktopic. -_-
Post by: Tea on July 06, 2017, 03:27:57 pm
And Tea is that weird abduct-killer.
Nope. Again, I have one usable active ability right now, and it's night-only. I don't understand the rest of this post either but maybe that's for the best.
I confirmed that if I were to absentee vote someone (when I gain access to that ability), it does not count as targeting the person I'm absentee voting, so I can't get flabort-checked that way. If there's something Jack (or anyone else) can send me to confirmably do during the Day, I'd almost definitely not hide to that end. I'm just really not that interested in not hiding just to get my vote stolen when I can do nothing besides talk and hide at that point, so. Is there a better reason not to hide tonight?
Post by: TolyK on July 06, 2017, 03:32:41 pm
Post by: Tea on July 06, 2017, 03:47:29 pm
Tea You said you control the dead; the 'dead FoU' is still bloody acting.
BUT, Persus; I don't see how it implies a Mafia still alive. The rule is in action and seems isolated from whether Mafia live or not?
Also dudes, turn your pages to Night 1. There was a kill--Persus absorbed it in his face, and then there's the abduct-kill(Presumed kill because Pozzai died the next night; N2).
SOMEHOW this is working again rather than disappearing N1.
SOMEHOW some stuff happened between then and now that didn't let it occur on N2/N3 if I presume it hit only on N1.
Also seriously people haven't fullclaimed yet. Hector, Persus, Tea, TolyK (Or at least, Tea and TolyK didn't do it in a nice list format :P)
NEXT
~Fullclaim~
Role Name: Calendar Man
-> (Batman character who I am not actually very familiar with but my brother mentioned him recently sooo)
Theme: Permanently dead players can still influence the game
Rewind, 1-shot auto - I revive on death. This reloads 1 cycle after being used
Holiday, Night - Due to <Calendar Man flavor> I go do my thing of celebrating a holiday and robbing ppl, the effect being that I become untargetable
Doomsday Device [target], 1-shot unusable - After I die I can kill [target]
Absentee Vote, 1-shot unusable - After I die I can PM Webadict a vote
N1 took no action and had my vote stolen
N2 took no action and had my vote returned
N3 used Holiday
I have since confirmed that my abilities that are currently unusable become usable after I die for the first time, even if Rewind takes effect.
Post by: Persus13 on July 06, 2017, 04:23:33 pm
Also, if TDS fired of his convert before he died, we may have to lynch Tiruin or Flabort. Any action on that front should wait until the Shakelon flip is revealed however.
Jack, if Doll got redirected to me, who did the redirect? If it was 4mask, whose the only player I'm aware of who has a redirect, why would he hit me with it?
Losing almost every action after the first death makes play unusually dull afterwards.And that accurately describes my play, yeah.
Persus13: Please give more detail on your claim (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164260.msg7499727#msg7499727). What were the names of your lost powers? Does anything distinguish the Third Defenestration from the Second role-wise? Also, do you remember why you blocked TBF N1?My power names are all variations of Defenestration. The protect was Defensive Defenestrate, roleblock was Defenestrate, randomize is Disorientation Defenestration. The Third Defenestration has a separate set of abilities, which I'll reveal if (when at this point) I get them.
I blocked TBF because I was suspicious of him and couldn't get a good read on him. I figured that if there were no kills that night I'd have found scum. Since there were two, I put my suspicions of TBF on the back burner in favor of better targets. Although now that I'm thinking about it, TBF could have been a PWV.
Flabort:
I am so regretful that I aided the cultist by using Spiders Everywhere - but it did gain me some abilities that turned out to be useful when I used it, so I don't regret that.Elaborate on this.
Post by: Tea on July 06, 2017, 06:59:01 pm
Post by: Tiruin on July 06, 2017, 07:10:51 pm
Tea/Persus if either of you are demoralized, what's your case on anyone else? We've got 6 people--and early on, Hector managed to even turn the reasoning tide to a better outcome.
Even if YOU are on the lynching block, doesn't stop youfrom making a case in the first place.
That, and to note that there's two anti-town left (them daykillers), makes this a really closed setup; despite lynching Mafia twice.
Also I can't easily quote but if ever TDS converted (only suspect is Flabort other than L-S; its less of a threat than anything as only the alignment changed, and prior to that we've got roleclaims out)
And that's if he did convert in thw first place (very possible considering the non-phase specific ability, but I'm betting he could be using it for LYLO situations, as possible too. Because it's set at one-shot is also an influence)
Being the lynch target always makes me less willing to engage in the game. I'm trying to figure out the piece to the puzzle that's missing here, but there's so many roles obscured I can't find it.Id love to hear more here (phone posting has a lot of backspace :p so I can get TBFs lacking qyoting...although the brevity, not so much .-.)
Because you have a...puzzle in mind?
What's sticking out?
Also will check later but why didnt you push a TBF case or any vote/mention of his block later on?
What is a PWV?Paranoid War Veteran--the role that makes a kill action on anyone directly or redirectly targeting.them.
Post by: Tea on July 06, 2017, 07:26:36 pm
PFP (fone)
Tea/Persus if either of you are demoralized, what's your case on anyone else? We've got 6 people--and early on, Hector managed to even turn the reasoning tide to a better outcome.
Even if YOU are on the lynching block, doesn't stop youfrom making a case in the first place.
That, and to note that there's two anti-town left (them daykillers), makes this a really closed setup; despite lynching Mafia twice.
I did start making a case on Jack. The response from both you and TolyK (who have a majority of the votes in play Today) was essentially that your read on him is based on a body of work that the rest of the game lacks access to. I do not feel that you have satisfactorily explained what led you to that read well enough that I feel comfortable sheeping it, and as such we're basically at an impasse. The only other person I actually suspect (of being mafia) is Persus, and I've talked about why that is too.
I would like to reiterate that I am unsure that the first kill came from living anti-town and thus think we should focus on finding the last mafia.
Post by: flabort on July 06, 2017, 07:48:12 pm
Flabort:When I got spiders everywhere I didn't know what it did or who it belonged to. I used it, still not knowing, and gained 3 abilities as a result as three people besides me had web strands.I am so regretful that I aided the cultist by using Spiders Everywhere - but it did gain me some abilities that turned out to be useful when I used it, so I don't regret that.Elaborate on this.
Later I learned that this ability aided the cultist; but I learned this when they flipped.
Post by: Tiruin on July 06, 2017, 09:06:43 pm
Three?Flabort:When I got spiders everywhere I didn't know what it did or who it belonged to. I used it, still not knowing, and gained 3 abilities as a result as three people besides me had web strands.I am so regretful that I aided the cultist by using Spiders Everywhere - but it did gain me some abilities that turned out to be useful when I used it, so I don't regret that.Elaborate on this.
Later I learned that this ability aided the cultist; but I learned this when they flipped.
You were only mentioned alongside TWO others. Who is that third besides you?
I did start making a case on Jack. The response from both you and TolyK (who have a majority of the votes in play Today) was essentially that your read on him is based on a body of work that the rest of the game lacks access to. I do not feel that you have satisfactorily explained what led you to that read well enough that I feel comfortable sheeping it, and as such we're basically at an impasse. The only other person I actually suspect (of being mafia) is Persus, and I've talked about why that is too.What about before I was invited to TolyK chat with Jack? What about Jack's background with TolyK since D1?
I would like to reiterate that I am unsure that the first kill came from living anti-town and thus think we should focus on finding the last mafia.
Post by: flabort on July 06, 2017, 10:00:28 pm
Once more I delve into my post history to explain something which I've explained 7 or 8 times now:Three?Flabort:When I got spiders everywhere I didn't know what it did or who it belonged to. I used it, still not knowing, and gained 3 abilities as a result as three people besides me had web strands.I am so regretful that I aided the cultist by using Spiders Everywhere - but it did gain me some abilities that turned out to be useful when I used it, so I don't regret that.Elaborate on this.
Later I learned that this ability aided the cultist; but I learned this when they flipped.
You were only mentioned alongside TWO others. Who is that third besides you?
1-shot, Night, target (gained N2): Bigly: steal a vote from target. can destroy ability to make vote steal permanent, votes return if I die.[/quote]
1-shot, mafiakill (gained N2): Monster Within: Convert target to your alignment, if successful you die and flip as their role + alignment, they gain this role.
auto (gained N2): Balance: Cannot use the same ability twice in a row.
Post by: Tiruin on July 07, 2017, 07:01:26 am
Alongside that, Webadict Votecount please?
Them day actions are processed at the count, and I don't want the 'end of the day' being the only time when we get those last, and ultra-late, batch of day actions done.
Like Persus 'day acting' on Flabort.
Post by: webadict on July 07, 2017, 08:33:15 am
That's my super fast vote count.
Post by: Tea on July 07, 2017, 02:00:06 pm
I did start making a case on Jack. The response from both you and TolyK (who have a majority of the votes in play Today) was essentially that your read on him is based on a body of work that the rest of the game lacks access to. I do not feel that you have satisfactorily explained what led you to that read well enough that I feel comfortable sheeping it, and as such we're basically at an impasse. The only other person I actually suspect (of being mafia) is Persus, and I've talked about why that is too.What about before I was invited to TolyK chat with Jack? What about Jack's background with TolyK since D1?
I would like to reiterate that I am unsure that the first kill came from living anti-town and thus think we should focus on finding the last mafia.
Look, Lurker Tracker doesn't really work for me so I went and ctrl+f'd "Life is too short for worries" on Every. Page. and skimmed for what you've said about Jack. I didn't find much.
Spoiler: D1 (click to show/hide)
being verbalized in text and posted. He's been like this as scum before--which is one reason why I'm voting him, otherwise he'd be neutral but ugh. Other reasons are in between my re-read, and me crumpling under horribad internets.
that you're back. But more activity please :ISpoiler: D2 (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: D4 (click to show/hide)
I want to know what specifically in the QT is a post that makes you go, there's no way Jack would come up with that as mafia/3P! What specifically did he say that makes you trust him more than just wanting to trust him? If it's literally just night action planning, again, what about that is clearing when the mafia has been able (due to FoU's modes) to mafiakill+take another action every single night? Does Jack have a good reason/mindset expressed for having targeted 4mask as opposed to his other townreads N1?
I want to understand what substance your read of him has beyond it being fun for you to think of the whole groupchat as town. I don't understand why it's like pulling teeth to get any kind of specific answer.
-
TolyK summarized early in the Day phase that he finds Jack's day play neutralish but that stuff in the QT (that he also has not ever really elaborated on) makes him think Jack is likely town. Same questions go to him.
Post by: TolyK on July 07, 2017, 04:13:46 pm
Post by: Tea on July 07, 2017, 09:13:32 pm
Where is flabort D:
Post by: flabort on July 07, 2017, 09:45:32 pm
Persus has 2 votes, Tiruin has 1.Webadict So... were there no day actions to be processed with the votecount?
That's my super fast vote count.
Post by: Tiruin on July 07, 2017, 10:44:03 pm
The main reason I trust him is because his started actions and actual actions coincided, from all the checking everyone has done, and he's been giving out roles to townies and fully cooperating. He also turned down a potentially lucrative arrangement (if he were scum) of scum winning (potentially, with a few converted townies). The only way he might be scum is if he was converted on a really late day.Err, pretty much this, Tea ._. That and early on, before I was invited, I got town reads on him due to behavior and how he said things, as I was focusing on other people that wasn't him--when I got invited, I did a whole check of the whole thing and it stood out as reasonable IF AND UNLESS THERE ARE MULTIPLE ACTION SHENANIGANS, but I doubt it (other than Jack being able to hit multiple targets up to a point? His ability sounds reasonable and he claimed it anyway)
>_>Persus has 2 votes, Tiruin has 1.Webadict So... were there no day actions to be processed with the votecount?
That's my super fast vote count.
<.<
DID you or anyone else submit an action? :v
Because I'm under the impression that only Persus was the one to check, and I *DOUBT* that Webadict would miss a "Messages [1]"
As he's been ready to play with my banter and niceness as a friend c:
Jack's been checked out as not performing the mafiakill in addition to his giving out of abilities on either N1 or N3?If he was doing the mafiakill, he'd not have been able to do his stuff that permitted him to give out things. :O
Where is flabort D:
And it seems really reasonable that his giving out of things--especially not as Mafia given TolyK's claim of power--have been pretty well.
If and unless they're a third-party team, which would be comedic due to the possibility to invite people to a quicktopic AND have multiple ways to defend the area (Jack's pow (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164260.msg7494278;topicseen#msg7494278)ers)
Post by: Jack A T on July 07, 2017, 11:02:50 pm
Tiruin: The mafiakill has been a free action until today. Remember the D1 game mode change? There have been multiple action shenanigans since mid-D1. I can't be 100% clear.
Jack, if Doll got redirected to me, who did the redirect? If it was 4mask, whose the only player I'm aware of who has a redirect, why would he hit me with it?Persus: If that was doll's shot, it was most likely 4mask's redirect. See Tea's earlier note (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164260.msg7501329#msg7501329) about doll's intent to give major permabuffs out. A revive (with too many available this game) for an extra action and unblockability can be a good trade. Or you could not be mafia, in which case you'd be the most likely other killer.
Post by: webadict on July 08, 2017, 08:09:41 am
Webadict So... were there no day actions to be processed with the votecount?Why would I tell you that?
The only thing that should tell you was I was at work.
Post by: webadict on July 08, 2017, 08:22:08 am
Persus13 has been lynched!
Persus13 has come back to life!
Vote Count
------------------------
flabort -
Jack A T -
Persus13 - Jack A T, TolyK,
Tea -
Tiruin - Tiruin,
TolyK -
No Lynch -
Not Voting - Persus13, Tea,
4 To Hammer. Day Ends on Friday, July 6th around 8:00 PM CST. There is no Extension available.
It is now Night. Nights ends on Tuesday, July 11th around 8:00 PM CST or when all actions have been submitted.
Post by: flabort on July 10, 2017, 11:35:37 am
Post by: Tiruin on July 10, 2017, 06:35:58 pm
Happy week people \o/
Post by: webadict on July 10, 2017, 07:44:02 pm
This is one benefit of posting at night :PI keep the thread open for a reason.
Happy week people \o/
Post by: webadict on July 10, 2017, 08:17:43 pm
To fully comprehend the scene, you need to be privy to some information.
The first is the identity of the two missing bodies.
The second is that the Day isn't done yet.
You might be asking what the third is...
But the girls are back in the middle of town. So, I guess we'll have to find out later.
hector13 has been found!
hactor13 was Scottish Comedy (town).
Lenglon-Shakerag has been found!
Lenglon-Shakerag was Mafia Gaming (sk).
Vote Count
------------------------
flabort -
Jack A T -
Persus13 -
Tea -
Tiruin -
TolyK -
No Lynch -
Not Voting - Persus13, Tea, Jack A T, TolyK, Tiruin,
4 To Hammer. Day Ends on Thursday, July 13th around 8:00 PM CST. There is no Extension available.
It is now Day.
Quote from: Current Rules
Creative - The next Mafia Player to die revives. This ability only triggers once per game.
Spectator - The Mafiakill is a Day action.
Quote
Scottish Comedy
(Day) Comedy Routine [target]: You do a quick showing of your comedy routine, informing the target of your alignment, which is probably a thing that might be funny?
(Night) The Best Medicine [target]: You protect the target from the vast dangers of the outside with your vague idea of what amounts to humor.
(Night, 1-Shot) Hilarity Ensues: Revives all players that died during the Night.
(1-Shot) Skittish Remedy [target/self]: Reset the target to their original role state.
Quote
Mafia Gaming
(Auto) Balance: You have cannot use the same ability twice in a row.
(Night) Metagame [target]: Choose One - You learn a random ability of the target; OR you learn the alignment of the target. If you can name the rolename of the target, you do both.
(Night) Mod Interference [target]: Choose One - Disable a random action from the target; OR block the target. If you can name an ability of the target’s, you do both.
(Night) Protection Racket [target]: Choose One - Protect the target; OR watch the target and learn who actioned them. If you can name a player other than yourself who actions the target, you do both.
(1-Shot) Balancer [target]: Switch roles with a player.
Post by: Jack A T on July 10, 2017, 08:58:48 pm
Persus13 claimed two revives, one spent N1. Persus13 just revived twice in a row (and we are aware of the cause of the second death over in TolyChat), bringing him to 3 revives. The mafioso gets a free revive under this mode. I wonder what's going on here.
Post by: flabort on July 10, 2017, 09:19:14 pm
Once again I forgot Tea said they would be hiding for the rest of the game. So... they hid, as expected, and my inspect failed. It would have been nice to be able to target them so I could double-win when we lynch Persus and town (probably) wins, but meh, I'll take a single victory with town.
As said by Jack, in TolyChat we know the reason Persus just died and revived again. We also know why Hector died, and who the intended target of the redirected action had been.
I did gain two abilities last night, one of which is useless without another ability that I didn't get.
The first is a Foam Hat, as described by Jack AT's ability that lets him give people abilities; the Foam hat is one ability he can give. This was planned in the TolyChat, and I knew I would be getting it.
The other ability I gained was Jack's ability to choose which ammo gets fired when
I'm pretty sure Tiruin will hammer, but if not, whatever.
Post by: Persus13 on July 10, 2017, 09:25:24 pm
If flabort's right and Tea hid, and Lengrag is an SK, I'm highly suspicious of Tiruin and TolyK right now.
I'm also traveling, so my internet connection will be limited until Wedensday evening, or about 48 hours from this post.
Post by: webadict on July 10, 2017, 09:25:35 pm
Post by: webadict on July 10, 2017, 09:27:42 pm
Persus13Please don't vote if you do not have a vote.
Post by: Tea on July 10, 2017, 11:40:18 pm
Persus13.
Persus13 claimed two revives, one spent N1. Persus13 just revived twice in a row (and we are aware of the cause of the second death over in TolyChat), bringing him to 3 revives. The mafioso gets a free revive under this mode. I wonder what's going on here.
I mean, I guess he confirmed this, but nothing in the mod's post seems to indicate he died and revived twice in a row? So I'm confused. OP hasn't been updated either.
Post by: Tea on July 10, 2017, 11:49:06 pm
Post by: Jack A T on July 10, 2017, 11:56:54 pm
Whoops....for fuck's sake.
I mean, I guess he confirmed this, but nothing in the mod's post seems to indicate he died and revived twice in a row? So I'm confused. OP hasn't been updated either.Tea: His death was there in today's start post when I voted. Note the edit about half an hour after my vote. Webadict has issued a correction.
I guess this means the kill failed?
Uhhh, so. Considering Lengrag flipped SK, does that make there for sure a living cultist? Bc the marionette ability would seem to correspond to his investigation fakeclaim that they were for sure SK. It was an incredibly risky claim otherwise.Thing is, we learned there's no failure on a tie, and on ties, a random top player would have been converted (See below quote). Means TDS wouldn't know Lengrag's alignment after a conversion attempt, making me really wonder what TDS was thinking with the inspect fakeclaim. So, still don't know, but if convert happened, still most likely flabort.
Webadict: If TDS used Marionette when two town players tied for the most spider webs, would Marionette successfully convert anyone? Also, if Marionette failed, would its shot be spent?A random target is chosen if all available targets are at equal Web Strands. Marionette can only fail if no available targets exist. If an ability fails, in general, I do not remove any shots from it. That case stands here.
Post by: Jack A T on July 10, 2017, 11:57:53 pm
Post by: Jack A T on July 10, 2017, 11:58:55 pm
Post by: Jack A T on July 11, 2017, 12:08:10 am
Post by: Jack A T on July 11, 2017, 12:14:09 am
Post by: TolyK on July 11, 2017, 12:47:48 am
But Persus I know almost for certain, so yeah.
Post by: Jack A T on July 11, 2017, 12:59:30 am
Going to wait on one day action.
Post by: Tea on July 11, 2017, 02:37:19 am
Post by: Tiruin on July 11, 2017, 05:47:59 am
Tiruin; Persus13; Persus13.
How in the world is Flabort still playing @_@
Err, I recall I retained the votes I stole from yesterday. FLABORT wasn't one of them [Hector13 was]Persus13Please don't vote if you do not have a vote.
Unless I'm mixing up Tea and Flabort <_>
Tiruin: Did you burn Bigly to make your vote theft permanent, and if so, when and why?I realized I could stop the daykill by hammering if y'all vote in tandem with me ._.
Post by: Tiruin on July 11, 2017, 05:49:56 am
because Jack unvoted.
Post by: Tiruin on July 11, 2017, 06:00:08 am
Since TolyK is voting and Jack somehow unvoted (Why? o_O), and I sent in a day action...
Persus13; Persus13; Persus13
If you soever have a power that activates on voting people, Persus, I'ma be all. :V
Post by: Tiruin on July 11, 2017, 06:09:08 am
We're in a Scottish Tragedy.
Quote
Scottish ComedyEveryone who had died in the night (pretty much all Town) would've risen again with that one shot.
(Day) Comedy Routine [target]: You do a quick showing of your comedy routine, informing the target of your alignment, which is probably a thing that might be funny?
(Night) The Best Medicine [target]: You protect the target from the vast dangers of the outside with your vague idea of what amounts to humor.
(Night, 1-Shot) Hilarity Ensues: Revives all players that died during the Night.
(1-Shot) Skittish Remedy [target/self]: Reset the target to their original role state.
And that OTHER one shot is a reversal of my one-shot. o_O
And given I posted Lenglon-Shakerag's full role in the TolyK chat...yeah there's absolutely nothing that makes them obviously SK other than...the literal wording I've gotten from their abilities .-.;
That is one barn-sized target of a claim though. It DID attract my investigate. :V
And...relied on RNG for protection and/or wasted our actions. Clever .-.;
Also if my hammer didn't work, TolyK stole mah boat!
Or Flabort :V
V:
Who hasn't posted anything in TolyK chat given he said stuff about targeting a certain somebody :I
Post by: Tiruin on July 11, 2017, 06:23:26 am
Uhhh, so. Considering Lengrag flipped SK, does that make there for sure a living cultist? Bc the marionette ability would seem to correspond to his investigation fakeclaim that they were for sure SK. It was an incredibly risky claim otherwise.Also the Mafia cannot do two kills in the same day. Whoever abducted and killed, as an aside from whoever killed TDS, is still AMONG US SIX. (6)
Post by: webadict on July 11, 2017, 06:24:12 am
...actions.
Post by: webadict on July 11, 2017, 05:29:39 pm
Jack A T has been killed!
Jack A T cannot be found!
TolyK has been killed!
TolyK was a Neurolinked-Connected Junior Researcher (town)!
Tea has been killed!
Tea has come back to life!
Votes Reset!
Vote Count
------------------------
flabort -
Persus13 -
Tea -
Tiruin -
No Lynch -
Not Voting - Persus13, Tea, Tiruin,
3 To Hammer. Day Ends on Thursday, July 13th around 8:00 PM CST. There is no Extension available.
Quote
Neuralink-Connected AI Junior Researcher
(Auto) Advanced AI: Any and all of your abilities can be given away freely. Any ability you give away can be returned.
(Night) Research [target]: Learn a random ability from the target. Gain a 1-Shot version of it.
(Day) Neurolink [target]: Create a neurolink with the target. All players Neurolinked together share access to your Neurochat.
Post by: TolyK on July 11, 2017, 05:46:22 pm
Post by: flabort on July 11, 2017, 06:14:54 pm
nothing
Post by: Jack A T on July 11, 2017, 06:18:44 pm
Post by: Tea on July 11, 2017, 10:00:13 pm
Post by: Tea on July 11, 2017, 10:01:57 pm
Post by: Tea on July 11, 2017, 10:04:02 pm
As for the other shit no idea
Can we talk this out Tiruin?
Post by: Tea on July 11, 2017, 11:00:02 pm
Even if you are anti town, at best I could force no lynch, and I don't think town wins that way anyway.
So gonna have faith and vote Persus.
Post by: Tea on July 11, 2017, 11:02:37 pm
Unvote
Just because 3 is hammer
Post by: Tiruin on July 11, 2017, 11:33:39 pm
So. My dreams of 4p+ Mason team is dead.
Otherwise this is me POSTING ON MY PHONE (http://amp.knowyourmeme.com/memes/persian-cat-room-guardian) right now.
Spoiler: Totally my reaction at dat votecount updoot (click to show/hide)
That said, let it be known that PERSUS13 is MAFIA and is LYING about his role. That also said, I am HAPPY because no MORE daykill shenanigans so we can TALK.
And yes that means I'm more comfy with Tea not being lynched because the Mafia is that dum endgame boss that looks cheesy easy at the start but powers up as time goes on, and is just rubbish to see them win, with their activity (sans Persus') play.
This also means, as I presume, that the daykill--if a one person source, is like "kill until x people remain", which is discarded if anyone else can kill.
But let's relaaaaax as I steeple my hands and glare at each of you.
We have ALL the time until day end. To talk! Like decent, ordinary people. So let's have fun, shall we? [/GLaDOS]
WEBADICT How do you process day actions?
And yes I wrote all this on phone.
Post by: Tea on July 11, 2017, 11:57:13 pm
...I- I just realized a very important thing.
We're in a Scottish Tragedy.QuoteScottish ComedyEveryone who had died in the night (pretty much all Town) would've risen again with that one shot.
(Day) Comedy Routine [target]: You do a quick showing of your comedy routine, informing the target of your alignment, which is probably a thing that might be funny?
(Night) The Best Medicine [target]: You protect the target from the vast dangers of the outside with your vague idea of what amounts to humor.
(Night, 1-Shot) Hilarity Ensues: Revives all players that died during the Night.
(1-Shot) Skittish Remedy [target/self]: Reset the target to their original role state.
And that OTHER one shot is a reversal of my one-shot. o_O
And given I posted Lenglon-Shakerag's full role in the TolyK chat...yeah there's absolutely nothing that makes them obviously SK other than...the literal wording I've gotten from their abilities .-.;
That is one barn-sized target of a claim though. It DID attract my investigate. :V
And...relied on RNG for protection and/or wasted our actions. Clever .-.;
Also if my hammer didn't work, TolyK stole mah boat!
Or Flabort :V
V:
Who hasn't posted anything in TolyK chat given he said stuff about targeting a certain somebody :I
By the way, uh
The way Hector explained it, Hilarity Ensues only works for the night that he used it. Which is why when he used it N2, only hector revived, and not doll+Pozzai
and then he reset himself D3 with the Skittish Remedy (dunno if it was before or intentionally in spite of Lengrag specifically asking for it to be used on you), but he chose to use the Best Medicine N3 instead
Post by: Tea on July 11, 2017, 11:59:00 pm
Post by: Tiruin on July 12, 2017, 12:03:13 am
Which is why I knew I was targeted by a kill despite no PM being sent to me.
At least that other dum Mafia rule isn't in play though. 'Free action' and bluh.
So...what didya want to talk about?
Post by: Tea on July 12, 2017, 12:10:38 am
How likely do you think it is that, regardless of the outcome, DarkStar /tried/ to use marionette and that was the inspiration for his claim that he had a 1-shot miller-piercing investigation? Was this discussed in your quicktopic?
If flabort is somehow not town, if I let him target me, how likely do you think it is that he would solo-win (like, causing everyone else to lose) via having targeted everyone? Or is there mainly a precedent for it being an additional win once someone else reaches their wincon?
Post by: Tea on July 12, 2017, 12:16:33 am
"Talk this out" kinda meant, can you reassure me that you're town, cuz you hammering while saying a lot of factually incorrect stuff and then HOLY KILLS was frightening, but your current demeanor is getting me there. If I have a specific question I'll let you know :|
Post by: Tiruin on July 12, 2017, 12:59:13 am
Right...
So! Most of what I feel was known is more present in Neurochat (TolyK chat). I'll detail better on my lappytop later.
Also we discussed TDS' marionette but didnt connect it to the miller or whatever as it was noted he can only hit Town; in the zbsence of the most webby person as town, it..uh, ill check. But on phone x.x
also, basically--yeah I can kill. That was the day action Jack was hinting at.
Nextly--why didn't you Day action Flabort before?
Also ive noted.in T-chat that it doesnt matter if Flabort is TOWN or CULT becausr he has an alternative wincon, and wgen you win, yer outta da game
Also can YOU reassure me that youre town? :v Im hindsighting and noting how explicitly planned Persus' covrr has been. He however was the one who wouldve outed his buddies pretty consecutively, so its nice to see that he's finally trapped.
...but all these corpses in the way is just demoralizing.
Post by: Tiruin on July 12, 2017, 01:45:17 am
If flabort is somehow not town, if I let him target me, how likely do you think it is that he would solo-win (like, causing everyone else to lose) via having targeted everyone? Or is there mainly a precedent for it being an additional win once someone else reaches their wincon?Oh oops. Forgot this irectly.
I..have had the thought, actually. More along a 'get 1 of everything alive; achieve superpowers'
But considering.what is even present, I doubt his wincon is malevolent. Like, picture Hector using his revive-all-night deaths. :p
We're basically relying on RNG as an aside.
Also anything else? Because I feel this game is wrapped up. Persus gets hammered, he dies (HOPEFULLY) a-
Wait. You can now use your kill. "Calendar Man"! Use it on Persus!
...if you are town. :3
Post by: Tea on July 12, 2017, 02:18:48 am
Which was actually why I thought you were ~invincible if antitown!
Post by: Tea on July 12, 2017, 02:24:13 am
Did you kill TDS?
Post by: webadict on July 12, 2017, 02:27:00 am
WEBADICT How do you process day actions?I process them all at the same time this game. It seemed unfair to make some actions happen and some not based off of who PMs faster.
Oh, and we have one little update, so let's get that out of the way.
Post by: webadict on July 12, 2017, 02:31:58 am
How?
He was so close to ending this game. Even when he had hit his most powerful form.
The game is ov--
Wait.
>:D
Server: you
Server: f
Server: o
Server: o
Server: l
Server: !
Persus13 has been killed!
Persus13 was the Second Defenestration of Prague (mafia)!
Votes Reset!
Vote Count
------------------------
flabort -
Tea -
Tiruin -
No Lynch -
Not Voting - Tea, Tiruin,
2 To Hammer. Day Ends on Thursday, July 13th around 8:00 PM CST. There is no Extension available.
Quote
Second Defenstration of Prague
(Auto) Second Defenestration: If you are the only remaining player of your alignment, you can use the Mafiakill Twice each Cycle.
(Mafiakill) Defenestrate [target]: Throw the target out of a window. The target does not roleflip until the following Day.
(Night) Self-Defenestrate: Kill yourself and revive.
Post by: Tea on July 12, 2017, 02:32:23 am
Post by: Tea on July 12, 2017, 02:32:53 am
Post by: Tea on July 12, 2017, 02:33:18 am
Post by: Tea on July 12, 2017, 02:36:08 am
Post by: Tea on July 12, 2017, 02:37:10 am
Post by: webadict on July 12, 2017, 02:38:45 am
Post by: Tea on July 12, 2017, 02:40:19 am
calendar man
does whatever a calendar can
anxiously shrieks at an empty thread
calendar man
Post by: Tea on July 12, 2017, 02:44:07 am
Convince me I can win with you if I don't hide tonight
Post by: Tea on July 12, 2017, 02:47:19 am
Oh well
Post by: Tea on July 12, 2017, 02:48:25 am
Post by: Tea on July 12, 2017, 02:57:04 am
I didn't have any day actions yesterday ?
Nextly--why didn't you Day action Flabort before?
Post by: Tea on July 12, 2017, 03:03:10 am
Not that this probably matters
Post by: Tiruin on July 12, 2017, 03:05:59 am
Post by: Tea on July 12, 2017, 03:06:26 am
Post by: Tea on July 12, 2017, 03:07:54 am
Post by: Tea on July 12, 2017, 03:08:17 am
Post by: Tiruin on July 12, 2017, 03:08:38 am
Game set match.
Also hugs to Tea ;~; I can't believe I doubted you.
Post by: Tea on July 12, 2017, 03:09:34 am
Post by: Tiruin on July 12, 2017, 03:12:32 am
..I think I just threw the game with Tea being scum.
Too???
:v
Least its better than mafia winning (or, yknow, I'm ded ext morning due to your daykill)
Post by: Tiruin on July 12, 2017, 03:23:58 am
(Auto) So Great, The Greatest: If you end the Day with at least 1 vote on you even if you’re not voting for any tied player.
(1-Shot) Leg of Decomposition [target]: Kill the target.
(0-Shot) Leg of Fusion [target]: You house the spirit of the target, merging yourself with the target. You become their alignment, adding your actions to their role and yourself to them. You become the same player, gamewise, though you both act independently.
(1-Shot) Third Leg’s Control Rod [target]: Redirect all actions that target you to the target instead.
(Night) Bigly [target]: Steal the target’s vote(s) for the next Day Phase. You may choose to destroy this ability to make your steal permanent. These votes return if you die.
(1-Shot, Night) Election: The following Day begins with an election. The President decides who’s lynched for that Day. If you’re elected President, you gain an additional vote permanently.
My role btw. Phone. Cant even post well
Post by: webadict on July 12, 2017, 03:26:12 am
I'll get this going since I can't seem to sleep.
Post by: Tiruin on July 12, 2017, 03:27:30 am
Yes, heel.
Post by: webadict on July 12, 2017, 03:30:28 am
flabort has been lynched!
flabort was Peter Petrelli (town)!
Vote Count
------------------------
flabort - Tea, Tiruin, Tiruin, Tiruin,
Tea -
Tiruin -
No Lynch -
Not Voting -
2 To Hammer. Day Ends on Thursday, July 13th around 8:00 PM CST. There is no Extension available.
It is now Night.
Quote
Peter Petrelli
(Auto) Heroes: Whenever you target a player or a player targets you, gain a one-shot version of a random ability. If you gain a power from all living players, you win.
(1-Shot) Eerie Arrival: Kill a player that aided in your death. One will be provided randomly, or you may choose a player. If you fail to choose a player that assisted in your death, one will be chosen randomly. This bypasses kill immunity, redirection, blocks, protection, or hides.
Post by: Tiruin on July 12, 2017, 03:31:19 am
I literslly don't have night actions other than steel boats. Also, Persus13 is the only guy :P
...PPE
Why.
Tea.
Y u scum.
Why is this
Post by: webadict on July 12, 2017, 04:16:14 am
You both can hammer the other. Depending on which one of you hammers decides who wins.
So we should decide this fairly.
How does that sounds?
Post by: Tea on July 12, 2017, 04:22:38 am
Post by: webadict on July 12, 2017, 04:27:16 am
But this also means that Tea is able to hammer Tiruin during Day++, at her discretion, since her temporary vote works from death.
Tea, do you hammer Tiruin?
Post by: Tea on July 12, 2017, 04:28:18 am
Post by: webadict on July 12, 2017, 04:31:11 am
I win when all anti-town factions are dead, so yes.You do not. The win will actually go to any SKs. You choose if Tiruin wins or the SK wins.
I know this is anti-climactic, but I want you to know the consequences before you decide.
Post by: Tea on July 12, 2017, 04:34:04 am
gg Lengrag
Post by: webadict on July 12, 2017, 04:35:03 am
Post by: Tea on July 12, 2017, 04:36:15 am
Post by: Tiruin on July 12, 2017, 04:37:16 am
I'll hammer her for the insincere hugs, I guess.The heck?!
gg Lengrag
Wow that's the worst and most hurtful reason I've ever had. -_-
I regret nothing now in anything I've done to you. >_>
What.I win when all anti-town factions are dead, so yes.You do not. The win will actually go to any SKs. You choose if Tiruin wins or the SK wins.
I know this is anti-climactic, but I want you to know the consequences before you decide.
Post by: Tiruin on July 12, 2017, 04:39:13 am
>_>
Well it's better than the Mafia.
"insincere hugs"
I'm done. Even if it's technically post-game; I'm throwing this in. It's not worth winning if the people are petty and spiteful and choose to declare ANOTHER PERSON'S intent as something fake.
Post by: Tea on July 12, 2017, 04:50:12 am
Post by: webadict on July 12, 2017, 05:00:17 am
Tiruin, this is Tea's decision. It is also a game. Her role was the deciding factor in who won, and she can choose who wins for any reason.
But let's remember one thing: This is a game. There will be no hard feelings.
Tiruin, I'll explain where you could have won in a bit. Same for you, Tea.
Post by: Tiruin on July 12, 2017, 05:09:22 am
But the hugs is pretty much sincere--also in realizing that yeah, it's also part of the reasoning of the hammer; I'd be fine either way if there was any actual better reason.
I mean the whole day 5 I've been on slow-as-molasses internet, on my phone, which can't even type well and zooms in with every keypress I do, so I have to write by short term memory.
Quote
Tiruin, I'll explain where you could have won in a bit. Same for you, Tea.I should've hammered Tea. :P I know.
And yes there's no hard feelings to others as PEOPLE; I'll reiterate my earlier (somewhere in D2 I think) mention about that stance towards people and their actions--just like as said to Doll, the same to anyone who feels like my actions are insincere [since...that creates a really rude characterization; I can understand non-sincerity in-game. I can't, if personally made]. So it's to the action and interpretation, though a bit of time and thought helped [hence the sorry...so sorry again x.x], but just to clarify it here.
<_<
The PPE is there for that reason. I'm not a person who 'tactically' manipulates others--it's something I've been averse to no matter what I've been in (and I've graduated Psychology x.x so that's even a more indirect intensity to it, especially with my dislike of 'manipulation' of people as, both in my culture that I grew up in and my personal principles, everyone else is just like me--so I treat everyone else with how I'd like to be treated and what I'd like the best for them)
But...yeah I can see how that could've been parsed as manipulation >.<
Sorry. :-[ :-\ It's been a really stressy week for me, as a total aside, with a bit of background as currently trying to help out people in domestic violence situations (out of forum) and stuff on that level of pressure...yeah.
It's actually MORE out of character for me to have acted as I did post--but I'm not editing it out, despite how shame-y I feel about...reacting like that. It wasn't what was happening and more an impression I received that I dwelt on unhealthily. (really sorry .-. to Lengrag too.)
Anyway should've saved the hugs for later when I would've died anyway, or not. But I was still betting to die. :P
Post by: Tea on July 12, 2017, 05:20:16 am
Post by: Tea on July 12, 2017, 05:24:54 am
Post by: webadict on July 12, 2017, 05:29:09 am
And then... there were three.
Tiruin stands before a massive hammer. The hammer is bigger than she is, and she hoists it like nothing. She holds it high above her, its power showing clearly. The weight of it should be too much for her. It glints in her eyes. She wishes she could stop this needless violence. But she slams it down nonetheless.
She would have won. She would have ended it. But she didn't know two things.
One, that she should've hit Tea instead of flabort. Tea, after all, was the Calendar Man. She controls the calendar. Tiruin had gotten Tea to use her miniature explosive and removed one threat, but she never took into account the remaining one. That of time itself. flabort, on the other hand, didn't have any voice remaining. He never got his final power from Tea. He was almost a hero.
And two, the hammer had been stolen from its previous owners, the last of whom crushed beneath it. And its parts stolen from one ever present threat.
Her name was Lenglon-Shakerag. She had been born of an odd pairing. The self-described inexperienced Lenglon and the carefully wreckless Shakerag. And all hope had looked dead. But from the corner of their... her eye, she saw it.
This is the shape that takes form when Tiruin effortlessly swings the hammer into Tea.
Tea has been lynched!
Tea was Calendar Man (town)!
Vote Count
------------------------
Tea - Tiruin, Tiruin, Tiruin,
Tiruin - Tea,
No Lynch -
Not Voting -
But the problem is that the dead can be vengeful. And the more dead you spite along the way, the more often they may decide to spite you back.
You see, Tea has her own hammer. A hammer that has been prepped for just this occasion. This hammer is merely one vote big. But you know the thing about a hammer?
A hammer is deadly at any size.
Tiruin has been lynched!
Tiruin was Utsuho Reiuji, The BYOR 0 Role That Makes Mafia Great Again (cult)!
Vote Count
------------------------
Tiruin - Tea,
No Lynch -
Not Voting - Tiruin,
1 To Hammer. Day Ends on Thursday, July 13th around 8:00 PM CST. There is no Extension available.
And just like that, everyone was dead.
Everyone was dead in the town of Sundown.
And they could now see the Sheriff sitting back in the bar. Web-san was taking a drink. Because this bar was the greatest bar there was. It's owner, the newly formed Lenglon-Shakerag, was already dispensing drinks when the last two came through the ghostly doors.
Lenglon-Shakerag could finally hold the ragin'est shindig this side of the underworld. Which is all she ever really wanted, anyway.
Because in the end, she wanted Mafia to be great again.
...
And then there were none.
Lenglon-Shakerag (sk) has won.
Quote
Calendar Man
(1-Shot, Auto) Rewind: You revive on death. This ability reloads 1 Cycle after use.
(Night) Holiday: You celebrate a random holiday and rob somewhere that isn’t here. You become untargetable.
(1-Shot, Unusable) Doomsday Device [target]: This ability can only work after death. Kill the target.
(1-Shot, Unusable) Absentee Vote: This ability can only work after death. You can send a vote to me to add to the vote count once.
Quote
Utsuho Reiuji, The BYOR 0 Role That Makes Mafia Great Again
(Auto) Bullet Hell: You can use any number of actions each night. Your chance to hit is equal to 1/(# of actions). If you use more than 1 action, you must choose an equal or greater number of player targets or all of them. The chance for an action to hit you is equal to 1/(1 + # of actions targeting you).
(Auto) So Great, The Greatest: If you end the Day with at least 1 vote on you (including your own), you become immune to kill and inspect actions.
(Auto) Rigged: If there’s a tie, your vote breaks it. You may choose to use this even if you’re not voting for any tied player.
(1-Shot) Leg of Decomposition [target]: Kill the target.
(Used) Leg of Fusion [target]: You house the spirit of the target, merging yourself with the target. You become their alignment, adding your actions to their role and yourself to them. You become the same player, gamewise, though you both act independently.
(1-Shot) Third Leg’s Control Rod [target]: Redirect all actions that target you to the target instead.
(Night) Bigly [target]: Steal the target’s vote(s) for the next Day Phase. You may choose to destroy this ability to make your steal permanent. These votes return if you die.
(1-Shot, Night) Election: The following Day begins with an election. The President decides who’s lynched for that Day. If you’re elected President, you gain an additional vote permanently.
Post by: Tiruin on July 12, 2017, 05:37:33 am
And the SK won.
I'd say 'technicalities' but we all put effort into killing each other. \o/
Also that RNG.
But where are those deadchat and otherwise links?!
Cult quicktopic (https://www.quicktopic.com/52/H/7eX79tHjrMYR)
TolyK's quicktopic (https://www.quicktopic.com/52/H/xhxfM8XyQr5)
Quote
(1-Shot) Third Leg’s Control Rod [target]: Redirect all actions that target you to the target instead.This was used, by the way. It's what killed Hector13...when I should've redirected it to someone else <_> but the fatigue of day actions and other factors made it not really happen that way.
Also Tea, you did pretty well :)
Sorry for the anxiety though :S
ALL my posts in both quicktopics were right before the day finals--before the 'double hammer' was even being said, by the way.
Post by: webadict on July 12, 2017, 05:42:00 am
And I have 16 pages of actions and roles. I have no idea if I can fit it in one post. I also stopped taking notes at the beginning of Day 4, since there wasn't much left.
I hope you guys had fun. I can post the five Quicktopic chats that were created later. I should be asleep, but updating this game was fun.
There were some issues with this game, and I'm sorry I anti-climacticated the ending, but I hope you all had fun. Some of y'alls roles were hard to make, and I never accounted for a few things. Like this ending. Feel free to criticize or praise what you'd like. I think this might be my final game, though. I just don't have the time anymore, and this was a solid couple months of updating. I've been neglecting a few things.
So, feel free to share!
Post by: webadict on July 12, 2017, 05:45:00 am
Here's the initial role:
Quote
The BYOR 0 Role That Makes Mafia Great Again
(Auto) So Great, The Greatest: If you end the Day with at least 1 vote on you (including your own), you become immune to kill and inspect actions.
(Auto) Rigged: If there’s a tie, your vote breaks it. You may choose to use this even if you’re not voting for any tied player.
(Night) Bigly [target]: Steal the target’s vote(s) for the next Day Phase. You may choose to destroy this ability to make your steal permanent. These votes return if you die.
(1-Shot, Night) Election: The following Day begins with an election. The President decides who’s lynched for that Day. If you’re elected President, you gain an additional vote permanently.
Quote
Utsuho Reiuji
(Auto) Bullet Hell: You can use any number of actions each night. Your chance to hit is equal to 1/(# of actions). If you use more than 1 action, you must choose an equal or greater number of player targets or all of them. The chance for an action to hit you is equal to 1/(1 + # of actions targeting you).
(1-Shot) Leg of Decomposition [target]: Kill the target.
(1-Shot) Leg of Fusion [target]: You house the spirit of the target, merging yourself with the target. You become their alignment, adding your actions to their role and yourself to them. You become the same player, gamewise, though you both act independently.
(1-Shot) Third Leg’s Control Rod [target]: Redirect all actions that target you to the target instead.
I want it to be clear that the SK did not, in fact, have any kills at all.
Post by: webadict on July 12, 2017, 05:48:29 am
The other two chats can be posted if their writers wish.
Spoiler: Actions (click to show/hide)
These actions are a hodge-podge. And I stopped needing this list on Day 4, because it wasn't long. I can finish the list off when I get to it.
Post by: NJW2000 on July 12, 2017, 05:55:44 am
Post by: webadict on July 12, 2017, 06:01:37 am
That certainly was an interesting game, though the conflict between emotional and formal interaction was a bit much at times.Yeah, you are right. I tried to slow it down, but I couldn't stem the flow, it seems.
Post by: Tiruin on July 12, 2017, 06:04:39 am
That certainly was an interesting game, though the conflict between emotional and formal interaction was a bit much at times.Yeah .-. totally my fault. Sorry dudes. I'm not a very good player x.x
It's all me. u_u
Post by: webadict on July 12, 2017, 06:12:56 am
No no no. Don't say that. That's doing exactly what they said. :pThat certainly was an interesting game, though the conflict between emotional and formal interaction was a bit much at times.Yeah .-. totally my fault. Sorry dudes. I'm not a very good player x.x
It's all me. u_u
Post by: NJW2000 on July 12, 2017, 06:23:19 am
Well, glad that we didn't get a non-silly result from a BYOR. Still kinda unsure about what TBF really was, are the roles about to be posted or have I missed something. Hope Pozzai and Tea stick around too; we need new hands on deck.
Post by: webadict on July 12, 2017, 06:34:12 am
Spoiler: Roles (click to show/hide)
Post by: Tiruin on July 12, 2017, 06:41:21 am
Hope Pozzai and Tea stick around too; we need new hands on deck.W-where were you though .-.;
Also yeah, I've been until D5 wondering what Tea's alignment was x.x EVEN only after I had killed Flabort that I was still wondering what she was .-. (The anxiousness maybe gave off that she was Town though)
But otherwise I kept wondering if she was the abduct killer because it's pretty nice to get...err, 'rid' of people who know you best.
Like Pozzai :P
Seriously x.x that kept nudging me. Especially since overall, anyone's inspection didn't work as best as it did, until Persus got hit.
...Also I'm twitching from reading TDS' flavor. Nice work with everyone's flavor, web!
Edit: Thanks NJW :-\ :-[
...Also yeah I realize that the PPE really made it worse now x.x It was different in my mind!
Post by: Shakerag on July 12, 2017, 09:05:05 am
Anyway, Fusionchat (https://www.quicktopic.com/52/H/ebkBdMiV3Lk).
Post by: flabort on July 12, 2017, 09:13:53 am
Post by: Shakerag on July 12, 2017, 09:30:26 am
[in game context only]
I hate you so much. Even though I somehow won, I hate you so very, very much. Even though role-swapping was absolutely the correct thing to do (especially since I thought you were town), I still really hate you. This was my time to shine and manipulate the entire game as a kill-less SK, you asshole.
[/in game context only]
Ahh well. Well played. Obviously, because I knew I was an SK and I believed you were town, role-swapping with us was pretty much the best thing you could have done to protect the town. We were flipping our everloving shit when that happened because we knew we were so screwed. But, I figured that given my role this was going to have to be a game in which I took some pretty big chances and hoped they paid off. Because if they did pay off it was going to be awesome. And, I suppose, despite the anticlimactic ending this one is still one for the record books. I just wish I could have been there to the end, laughing maniacally as we controlled the vote and shrugged off kill attempts T_T
Of course, knowing now that you were cult, it still technically would have been the best move for your alignment anyway.
Also, I still don't understand how you pretty much knew we were an SK and didn't jump on that...
And, just in case it wasn't clear, we weren't mad at you personally. You just screwed us over so hard ... -_-
Of course, also looking back and knowing that TDS absolutely knew we were 3P might have hurt our chances...
Now I wonder if I was getting scummy vibes from Tea because of her role. Huh.
Also props to Lenglon for keeping our shit together as long as possible. She put in most of the work, yo.
Oh, wait, so basically Tea decided if cult or SK won, huh. I guess mafia and town were both pretty screwed this game.
Well, since literally everyone died, and therefor I have abilities from every living player, does that mean I won too? :PThere's some kind of divide by zero error/joke here; I know it.
Post by: webadict on July 12, 2017, 09:52:33 am
Well, since literally everyone died, and therefor I have abilities from every living player, does that mean I won too? :PUnfortunately, as an ability, you need to be alive to use it.
Post by: FallacyofUrist on July 12, 2017, 10:05:44 am
~~~
GG.
Hey webadict, mind posting the submitted themes and their effects?
Post by: webadict on July 12, 2017, 10:24:33 am
Oh hey, we(the mafia) equal the number of remaining players(0 to 0) and there's no way to stop us. Does that mean we win?Oh man, there were a lot of themes.
~~~
GG.
Hey webadict, mind posting the submitted themes and their effects?
I can post something later. I'll describe how I used them.
I felt a bit bad for the Mafia. They got some short straws this game. They had a lot of chances to become super powerful, but never had the chance to use them, plus they were a bit lower on the power curve. They did get lucky with one of the super powers they got though, and doublekilling mafia is terrifyingly strong. That was initially my justification early on, but I could've made some adjustments in their favor.
Oh well. Lesson learned.
Post by: webadict on July 12, 2017, 10:58:15 am
- A lot of the alignments were fairly well balanced by playstyle. The mafia was actually the least powerful in spite of themselves, which was my fault.
- The fusion ability was really well done. I would never allow the combined abilities ever again, but it really worked out. It never felt bad to have the same role, and there were positives to working with another player. I rate it an A- on the power scale.
- A two player cult may have been two weak, but it wasn't too frustrating to play against. I would consider similarly limited cults like that again.
Negatives:
- Massive power shifts are unfun! Big no-no in the future.
- Try to make better Mafiakill abilities. These ones were too niche for the most part.
- Readjust how power scales are for some alignments.
Post by: Jack A T on July 12, 2017, 11:35:47 am
Webadict: One question, though: How did Tiruin get 4 web strands N2?
Post by: Jack A T on July 12, 2017, 12:06:59 pm
Post by: TolyK on July 12, 2017, 12:24:02 pm
Honestly, Web, it felt like several of the town roles were boring. I think that I just got incredibly lucky that I picked Townies to side with (initially - obviously, it turned out that Lenglon became SK and Tiruin became cult, but they were initially town :p). It was fun how it happened, though.
Also, I was right about Tiruin in the end, too! I feel validated, at least.
Also, technically, my plan for everyone winning was possible if only the Merge 1-shot wasn't used. So ha.
:p
Also agree about the revives and multiple kills - for the folks who had no revives, it was pretty brutal to not get killed, in probabilistic terms... while revivers could just sail through much easier. Though having 3 baddie teams was pretty much unexpected until it was obvious, I liked the part a lot.
Overall I think the game was balanced by teams, but incredibly swingy and it was a bit lucky that it ended up this way. ;)
Post by: Lenglon on July 12, 2017, 12:28:10 pm
Post by: webadict on July 12, 2017, 12:37:00 pm
Good game, folks, good game.Pretty fair and I agree. Some roles were hard to come up with, and I wanted to keep them somewhat related. I think if I had done a bit more research and baking, some roles would've been much better, but yeah, you can see how much I really understand about a role based off how crazy the abilities are.
Honestly, Web, it felt like several of the town roles were boring. I think that I just got incredibly lucky that I picked Townies to side with (initially - obviously, it turned out that Lenglon became SK and Tiruin became cult, but they were initially town :p). It was fun how it happened, though.
Also, I was right about Tiruin in the end, too! I feel validated, at least.
Also, technically, my plan for everyone winning was possible if only the Merge 1-shot wasn't used. So ha.
:p
Also agree about the revives and multiple kills - for the folks who had no revives, it was pretty brutal to not get killed, in probabilistic terms... while revivers could just sail through much easier. Though having 3 baddie teams was pretty much unexpected until it was obvious, I liked the part a lot.
Overall I think the game was balanced by teams, but incredibly swingy and it was a bit lucky that it ended up this way. ;)
Post by: TolyK on July 12, 2017, 01:12:35 pm
But I wasn't. And it was Tiruin instead, eventually.
Anyways, 9/10, would deff play again.
Post by: webadict on July 12, 2017, 02:30:23 pm
Personally, I was hoping for mostly the same thing, except that I was a cult.I role up the alignments seperately from the role. This setup had very little craziness alignment-wise. But it isn't fair to make a role have a certain alignment.
But I wasn't. And it was Tiruin instead, eventually.
Anyways, 9/10, would deff play again.
Except the role webadict. That one is always mafia.
Post by: Pozzai on July 12, 2017, 03:24:16 pm
Some positives:
- A lot of the alignments were fairly well balanced by playstyle. The mafia was actually the least powerful in spite of themselves, which was my fault.
- The fusion ability was really well done. I would never allow the combined abilities ever again, but it really worked out. It never felt bad to have the same role, and there were positives to working with another player. I rate it an A- on the power scale.
- A two player cult may have been two weak, but it wasn't too frustrating to play against. I would consider similarly limited cults like that again.
Negatives:
- Massive power shifts are unfun! Big no-no in the future.
- Try to make better Mafiakill abilities. These ones were too niche for the most part.
- Readjust how power scales are for some alignments.
I personally feel my role didn't fit in with the amount of revives etc in the game. My save of Tea n1 turned out to be a negative to town overall, and would've been by saving a few other people as well.
By saving Tea town got:
1 less kill action prior to losing.
1 less vote.
1 more death/future bulletsponge.
More misinformation on what happened.
And there wasn't actually any benefit involved in saving her.
I can't even start to explain how demoralising it feels making the correct call in who is dying, only to find out you basically fucked town over by doing so. :/
Post by: webadict on July 12, 2017, 03:47:05 pm
I'll take that into consideration. But, Tea's role was a little special, since recurring revives are incredibly rare, so a lot of that was bad luck. But I think revives do cheapen kills in general, so making a guard ability that could've done more is fair. I actually tried to give you an evolving role to fit your submitted theme.
Post by: flabort on July 12, 2017, 04:21:31 pm
What about the role "If 'webadict' were a Cultist"?Personally, I was hoping for mostly the same thing, except that I was a cult.I role up the alignments seperately from the role. This setup had very little craziness alignment-wise. But it isn't fair to make a role have a certain alignment.
But I wasn't. And it was Tiruin instead, eventually.
Anyways, 9/10, would deff play again.
Except the role webadict. That one is always mafia.
Post by: Pozzai on July 12, 2017, 04:23:50 pm
That's true and completely fair. I actually built your role with the assumption you would build into a new role first, but that's a dumb assumption to make.
I'll take that into consideration. But, Tea's role was a little special, since recurring revives are incredibly rare, so a lot of that was bad luck. But I think revives do cheapen kills in general, so making a guard ability that could've done more is fair. I actually tried to give you an evolving role to fit your submitted theme.
Yeah but it would be essentially the same with a bunch of the other revive roles, and even Doll's role if they hadn't basically outed every action they wanted to take and what it meant would've been a net-negative save.
I dislike revives in general, but I think bodyguard types really doesn't have a place with them, either a different prot role, or "revives is town's protection" seems smoother ^^
Post by: webadict on July 12, 2017, 05:11:39 pm
It is for sure. A lot of it is about power balancing. I think maybe it could've been a lot better though, thinking about it. I didn't want to give too many protects, especially with inspects flying around.That's true and completely fair. I actually built your role with the assumption you would build into a new role first, but that's a dumb assumption to make.
I'll take that into consideration. But, Tea's role was a little special, since recurring revives are incredibly rare, so a lot of that was bad luck. But I think revives do cheapen kills in general, so making a guard ability that could've done more is fair. I actually tried to give you an evolving role to fit your submitted theme.
Yeah but it would be essentially the same with a bunch of the other revive roles, and even Doll's role if they hadn't basically outed every action they wanted to take and what it meant would've been a net-negative save.
I dislike revives in general, but I think bodyguard types really doesn't have a place with them, either a different prot role, or "revives is town's protection" seems smoother ^^
Maybe it is better to give weaker actions more expansive choices and modification. I could've given you the ability to see if they would die and not revive and therefore not dying for nothing. Or gaining information.
They are all fair criticisms.
Post by: Tiruin on July 12, 2017, 05:17:48 pm
Also, I still don't understand how you pretty much knew we were an SK and didn't jump on that...To pull something from cultchat: It was all
And, just in case it wasn't clear, we weren't mad at you personally. You just screwed us over so hard ... -_-
Of course, also looking back and knowing that TDS absolutely knew we were 3P might have hurt our chances...
Like, it should've been YOU, then it should've been flabort, but then I got cult'd. And through all that is how you became secret confirmed non-town.
By day 5, the cult was more Mafia than the actual Mafia, in terms of in-game knowledge [at least, not in knowing who was what alignment, but who could've been what actual threat they were]
Also, in the end... Doll didn't even act.I'll still miss him so much, regardless of the fully out of context and character bitterness he showed. x.x
But...yeah, I was expecting to guess who he used those 2 nifty abilities on. Or...y'know, those kills too.
Post by: TheDarkStar on July 12, 2017, 07:58:08 pm
webadict, I'm curious as to what you envisioned going on with my role. Was the idea that I would be able to start killing near the end of the game or that I'd be able to break LYLO more effectively? It was nice being able to cover my web actions with town-oriented ones, but the webbing thing felt like it would take past the end of the game to let me kill people.
Post by: webadict on July 12, 2017, 08:20:31 pm
10/10 would accidentally convert Tiruin again. GG, even though cult lost.Yeah, I was thinking it'd be more of an endgame killing LyLo breaker. Since you didn't have the bonus of being able to constantly convert players, I figured you deserved an additional method to secure endgame, but one that really required you to be on the lay-low.
webadict, I'm curious as to what you envisioned going on with my role. Was the idea that I would be able to start killing near the end of the game or that I'd be able to break LYLO more effectively? It was nice being able to cover my web actions with town-oriented ones, but the webbing thing felt like it would take past the end of the game to let me kill people.
I didn't think it'd take as long as it would to build up. Also, I hated counting the threads. Would not do again.
Post by: Tiruin on July 12, 2017, 09:16:00 pm
10/10 would accidentally convert Tiruin again. GG, even though cult lost.Tea was so good, the only thing that made me doubt she wasn't third party was her nervousness x3
That said, if there was any other way--and not because of my preference--Town played exquisitely inasmuch as scum, and if I had the choice (that didn't go against my wincon), I'd have really gone for a Town win :P
Sorry for the stress Tea x.x but seriously, you kept me doubting till I made that climactic mistake of hammering Flabort.
Also I believe all the indirect grump to the Mafia was also on conditioning--the somewhat lessened day intensity play was a factor as B12 really loves dayplay. It was all, also, part of Mafia's plan though, but it could've been done better :P
I'm amused that the double kill bounced to my buddies--amused in the mechanical sense. Jack and TolyK did very well though.
Quote
LenglonIF I KNEW THIS THE GAME WOULD HAVE BEEN DIFFERENT :'(
06-03-2017
12:13 AM ET (US)
Hiya! note that one-shots that miss from bullet hell arent used up, clarified that with web earlier. enjoy having two vots and tons of powers while Im unable to post due to my phone connection sucking!
And while my expectations of winning the cult was pretty slim (and I slipped hard later on), I liked how the game went.
And hugs to Shakerag Lenglon.
Post by: Pozzai on July 12, 2017, 10:22:07 pm
Tea was so good, the only thing that made me doubt she wasn't third party was her nervousness x3[/quote]
That's probably more of a towntell for her, my main gripe with her was I'm used to see stuff like how she played after shooting Persus from her. She had a few instances where she did that in later days, but I didn't feel like I got enough from her.
She seemed detached from the game the majority of the game which just rubbed me the wrong way. Though you can actually see my opinion on her change in my interactions with her day1 where I asked her something rather directly and coldly, then more or less instantly go "well, you know what, ignore that" and changed tone completely :P
Post by: Pozzai on July 14, 2017, 02:06:57 pm
Post by: Persus13 on July 14, 2017, 02:21:33 pm
Post by: Persus13 on July 14, 2017, 02:26:34 pm
Quote from: Pozzai in Deadchat
This is why Doll calling me and other people "bad" is hillarious, when 90% of his play day1 was so anti-town and near gamethrowing.
Claiming his role and intentions = redirecter in the game and you've fucked up town.
Claiming exact shots = transporter or scummedic in the game, and you've fucked up town.
This was exactly my plan to handle N1 Doll targeting to scum. 4maskwolf was too worried to actually pull it off and doll decided to rage quit for some weird reason.
Also almost everyone in the game made the cardinal sin of trying to outguess webadict, which is a terrible idea in every Webadict BYOR ever.
Post by: TolyK on July 14, 2017, 02:57:27 pm
Post by: Pozzai on July 14, 2017, 03:30:01 pm
Quote from: Pozzai in DeadchatThis is why Doll calling me and other people "bad" is hillarious, when 90% of his play day1 was so anti-town and near gamethrowing.
Claiming his role and intentions = redirecter in the game and you've fucked up town.
Claiming exact shots = transporter or scummedic in the game, and you've fucked up town.
This was exactly my plan to handle N1 Doll targeting to scum. 4maskwolf was too worried to actually pull it off and doll decided to rage quit for some weird reason.
Also almost everyone in the game made the cardinal sin of trying to outguess webadict, which is a terrible idea in every Webadict BYOR ever.
Doll's thing was such a level 1 mistake that it's basically level 0, that's why I thought he was scum, he removes any interaction analysis + gives scum a guidebook to essentially get another kill maybe two.
I didn't believe anyone that acts like they're experienced would be that daft frankly.
Post by: webadict on July 14, 2017, 04:22:03 pm
Also almost everyone in the game made the cardinal sin of trying to outguess webadict, which is a terrible idea in every Webadict BYOR ever.I love using that to my advantage, though. I mean, I do warn everyone you have counters to your role no matter how powerful you think it is...
Well, we were pretty close. :PI dunno. The closer you get to it, the more it tends to backfire.
Post by: doll on July 14, 2017, 10:16:11 pm
For reference, I left because Flabort gave out meta-information that they were town.
B12 acts too much like a support group and too little like serious business, so there's a particular kind of AtE which is taboo for scum to fake. I either had to leave or start abusing that and as you can see from my giving out no information rather than false information, I don't feel like playing with that sort of advantage.
Also, I'm busy and have better things to do than play mafia games with 3+ TBF's (Flabort, TBF, Tiruin).
Re: 'hurr doll is bad'
1) If I had stayed, I would have lynched FoU because Flabort towntold
2) I caught the redirector in the daythread (Flabort, though he was just badtown) by claiming. In the event that I didn't catch (4maskwolf) in the daygame, I would have revealed who they were by having town watch me. The setup information available (to me) made it pretty clear that there was a scum redirector and a town (cult actually, but that's just town anyway) watcher
3) I can't misfire and hit town (without being able to revive them), so there is no real risk to having mafia redirect me, whereas claiming gave me a strong platform to hunt from
4) This shouldn't need to be said, but scum couldn't block my kills (just redirect them)
5-10) Claiming gave me a much better platform to hunt from (notice that my nominated kills at the time that I left were BOTH scum, though to be fair they were also terrible players)
I never did get a link to deadchat in my death PM. I'm not if that was intentional due to my corpse-role, or what.
Post by: doll on July 14, 2017, 10:18:14 pm
Letting players like TBF or (doll) back into games after disrupting them is how you kill communities. It's not a good idea in my opinion.
Post by: webadict on July 14, 2017, 11:06:54 pm
EBWOP:True, but you're kind of a dick about it. Nobody really understands your points because you make a point and then disprove it through your own actions.
Letting players like TBF or (doll) back into games after disrupting them is how you kill communities. It's not a good idea in my opinion.
If I actioned everyone, it would have changed the game balance quite a lot, so any comments about the setup have to keep that in mind.Yeah, but you didn't action everybody. I mean, you're saying one thing, but you're trying to prove the opposite by how you played.
For reference, I left because Flabort gave out meta-information that they were town.
B12 acts too much like a support group and too little like serious business, so there's a particular kind of AtE which is taboo for scum to fake. I either had to leave or start abusing that and as you can see from my giving out no information rather than false information, I don't feel like playing with that sort of advantage.
Also, I'm busy and have better things to do than play mafia games with 3+ TBF's (Flabort, TBF, Tiruin).
I didn't give you a deadchat link on purpose. You didn't do anything towards the end, so you didn't get a deadchat link. I mean, what would even be the point? You weren't a player at that point. Simple as that.
Post by: Tiruin on July 15, 2017, 12:59:23 am
For reference, I left because Flabort gave out meta-information that they were town.Hee~ :P I'm stereotyped. That's pretty deep.
B12 acts too much like a support group and too little like serious business, so there's a particular kind of AtE which is taboo for scum to fake. I either had to leave or start abusing that and as you can see from my giving out no information rather than false information, I don't feel like playing with that sort of advantage.
Also, I'm busy and have better things to do than play mafia games with 3+ TBF's (Flabort, TBF, Tiruin).
It's that there's a sense of bias and disconnection that we're all more connected than other mafia forums that give off that notice--it's actually town-friendly, but regardless of the sense of connection between players, it doesn't affect the gameplay at all. Moreso that the D1 play you did was...not helpful in comparison to this basis.
That's pretty serious business to be able to play as you are in a game, and yet post-game be friends with each other. So you abusing this is moreso out of your own perspective [and utter uncouthness towards 'TBFs']
EBWOP:No, it's not letting players in. It's letting attitude color your behavior. Your bitterness was just immaturely inappropriate, and TBF has his own personal concerns that are outside of your knowledge :P
Letting players like TBF or (doll) back into games after disrupting them is how you kill communities. It's not a good idea in my opinion.
It's rather how your personality is in how you behaved, that affects other people.
So, to summarize it: Pushing fault onto others instead of helping them is how you kill communities. What you do affects others by intent just as much as your own wording and action--TBF tries his best (he can only post by phone, he's pretty much young, and he's on the autism spectrum yet is pretty awesome like everyone else); so using whatever you've seen in him (but not mentioned about it at all to him or in public), shouldn't be used as a basis.
Because that's how bias grows. And how it affects interactions. It becomes part of your perception to others, and this is what's used in interactions.
Just because Flabort mentioned his own personal experiences doesn't make this a 'therapy session' because it's merely an impression. Perhaps an impression that blew up in between the time when one read it and when they had posted about it, but still an impression.
If you are going to treat this like a support group and frame it that way--it's better framed in the idea of compassion in the military. You can't work well at all if you treat 'serious business' as some kind of grump-a-thon; camaraderie works, and it instills a sense of community and togetherness/belongingness [which is pretty much a basic social need]. So yeah. We can be pretty serious; and that's how we can pretty much end up in a game where everyone dies because nobody intended for everyone to die. :P It's not the ideal outcome, but it is an outcome that had happened by virtue of everyone playing together.
You're a lot better than how bitter you were, here. And you're always welcome into this community (sockpuppet or not...but preferably as 'not a sockpuppet' :v because why anyway); it's moreso the bitter attitude that's not that welcome x.x
Like: How did the thinking even get to 'coddle group' than anything actually therapeutic? That's how I sensed out your idea of support group or otherwise--not really like a support group.
Post by: Jack A T on July 15, 2017, 03:36:08 am
Mafia is, to a certain extent, a giant pile of principal-agent problems. Each faction has interests to pursue, but can only pursue them through its members, who have their own separate and oft-competing interests. We are not automatons translating our factions' interests into actions. We are people, complicated and flawed as we all are. We see the effects of this all the time, most notably in the way almost every player wants to survive more than their faction wants them to.
This is a game about managing people, among other things.
As a townie, I want to limit the distortionary influences (including out-of-game stress and mental health issues) on other players' play, town or not. I want that because I want to read them accurately. I also want players (especially townies) to have good morale, as morale collapses are terrible for activity. In addition, I don't want townies dumping masses of fake scumtells and dying needlessly, as can happen with out-of-game troubles. It is in my faction's strategic interests for me to be supportive. I would be doing my faction a disservice if I wasn't.
As scum, I want to look like I do as town. Plus, people trust me when they like me.
Now, am I supportive purely for my factional interest? No. No. I try to be a decent person. However, that I am influenced heavily by personal ethics (on this issue, more than by factional interests, honestly) does not change the fact that this is generally strategically sound play, and my strategic interests aren't against my actions.
These issues will pop up anywhere. People are people. You will find players whose play is influenced negatively by out-of-game stress or mental heath issues. You will have to work with said players. Being prepared to do so is part of serious Mafia play. It's rather like the rest of life that way.
And yes, Bay 12 Mafia behaviour is influenced by local social norms. Mafia is greatly shaped by any community's social norms, shared ideas, and social structures. To horribly paraphrase Alexander Wendt, Mafia is what players make of it. To have certain tactics be taboo is quite normal, and hardly a sign of non-seriousness. The norm you note, though, is not as strongly town-leaning as you seem to think: while faking that sort of appeal is taboo, the underlying issues are hardly exclusive to town. Scum can be as thrown off as town is by the same forces, and can express it as much as town can.
Post by: Tiruin on July 15, 2017, 04:03:33 am
Anything sincerely interacting with others is pretty much one's own serious business. (Which is why I got grumpy as a reaction to the bitterness and otherwise x.x) As we're all people, we're all playing with each other, regardless of the medium in between us.
...It'd also help that we'd know what bothered you--because what I saw was like you saw something, and we got the reaction, than anything in between. If it was Flabort's mention of his RL issue waaaaaay back, you can bring it up in a better way than how it happened (eg Don't blame them, but something like "I feel like you're comparing the case I'm making against you to something out of Mafia[...]")
Like that total aside in TolyK's chat where Jack went out of his way to help with out of Mafia issues :P (seriously thanks)
Because it helps people even if it's not directly part of the play by itself.
Post by: Persus13 on July 15, 2017, 08:16:21 am
Quote from: Me in Mafiachat
4maskwolf, can you please post something in the game so I can read something intelligent?
i think this is what a BYOR BM would look like.]
Post by: 4maskwolf on July 15, 2017, 06:12:51 pm
I agree with what Jack A T said above.
And you probably shouldn't be looking to me for intelligent discussion Persus :P
Post by: Persus13 on July 15, 2017, 08:48:22 pm
Post by: doll on July 15, 2017, 10:49:47 pm
doll, the "group therapy" behaviour you despise is Mafia as serious business.I don't despise it. It's not ideal for me, obviously, but that's just a mismatch between my priorities and those of the community.
It may be worth noting that 'serious business' was used as an inherently ironic, somewhat empty label. I have been treating mafia as a game much more than the community, which treats it more like a kind of optional work.
A few loose, messy thoughts:While your analysis is of course correct if you include the wider context of the players-as-people within the scope of what is called 'The Game of Mafia', within the alternate interpretation of 'The Game of Mafia' (my view) where a narrower scope of variables is included and deviance amongst players from their presumed position in this set (i.e. elements outside of core competencies and availability to play) is a deviance from the game known as 'Mafia'.
Mafia is, to a certain extent, a giant pile of principal-agent problems. Each faction has interests to pursue, but can only pursue them through its members, who have their own separate and oft-competing interests. We are not automatons translating our factions' interests into actions. We are people, complicated and flawed as we all are. We see the effects of this all the time, most notably in the way almost every player wants to survive more than their faction wants them to.
Your position dictates that the best avenue of play is a constant flood of third party bullying and disinformation, aimed at reducing the competency of players such that the perpetrator is left in an advantageous position. This of course has no limit on the use of multiple accounts etc. to achieve one's aims, and indeed mandates the use thereof through their being an advantageous utility in managing [sic] people.
However, as an independent actor myself, my aim is in developing a robust set of transferable skills, which is less possible in an unfocused and incompetent playerbase. This is, after all, a game.
Hence, my teleological position in approaching mafia is incompatible, as it were, with this interpretation of mafia.
For this reason I have developed the closed view of mafia wherein individual actors are presumed to attempt merely to succeed and not to exist outside of that role. Of course, this is a more restricted model than the open view you espouse.
TBF tries his best (he can only post by phone, he's pretty much young, and he's on the autism spectrum yet is pretty awesome like everyone else); so using whatever you've seen in him (but not mentioned about it at all to him or in public), shouldn't be used as a basis.Y'know, Tiruin, I've always assumed you were aware, but maybe you actually aren't. I've got something to tell you, if that's the case:
You're not a nice person.
This is a game about managing people, among other things.Yes, and when I manage people at work, I am able to achieve discrete, actionable objectives. You could say that doing so is no different from manging people in a game of mafia. The difference is, of course, that one is work and the importance to me of the objectives achieved and the quality of the atmosphere and the individuals contributing thereto within that work context is far greater, while the other is ostensibly play yet revolves around literally asking autistic children not to intentionally lose easy games.
And yes, Bay 12 Mafia behaviour is influenced by local social norms. Mafia is greatly shaped by any community's social norms, shared ideas, and social structures. To horribly paraphrase Alexander Wendt, Mafia is what players make of it. To have certain tactics be taboo is quite normal, and hardly a sign of non-seriousness. The norm you note, though, is not as strongly town-leaning as you seem to think: while faking that sort of appeal is taboo, the underlying issues are hardly exclusive to town. Scum can be as thrown off as town is by the same forces, and can express it as much as town can.Within the context in which it was expressed, there can be no doubt that Flabort's outburst was a towntell. Of course, if you attempt to construct and stretch a general case wide enough, you will notice errors in your model. In this case, however, the specific case of Flabort was extraordinarily polarized and direct.
Yes, scum can be thrown off, which is why breaking the taboos and abusing the positions of strength they give is useful in any role, so long as the cows chosen are correct.
You will note, of course, the nature of my post after P25 and in breaking out of the BM, both cases much the same as this.
I make a lot of points. You gotta keep up!EBWOP:True, but you're kind of a dick about it. Nobody really understands your points because you make a point and then disprove it through your own actions.
Letting players like TBF or (doll) back into games after disrupting them is how you kill communities. It's not a good idea in my opinion.
Like: How did the thinking even get to 'coddle group' than anything actually therapeutic? That's how I sensed out your idea of support group or otherwise--not really like a support group.It really is like a support group - players come and play, and except when an issue weighs heavy on their mind, in which case they share it and other members of the community literally offer support. The issue is, of course, that this gets in the way of the play. It's a perfectly reasonable position from the point of view of the one asking for support, since the support is likely to have more value for them than the game itself. The other players keep the institution in place presumably in order to benefit from it themselves at a later date. The whole process lies against the interest of causal actors such as myself who don't benefit from the system, and so we seek to take preliminary action against it. Of course, a wider range of activity in response to this system requires much more work than the benefit is worth.
You're a lot better than how bitter you were, here. And you're always welcome into this community (sockpuppet or not...but preferably as 'not a sockpuppet' :v because why anyway); it's moreso the bitter attitude that's not that welcome x.xIt is instructive that you think I'm bitter, because in this case I am merely acting out of narcissistic and self aggrandizing motives to carry on a conversation about myself. Similarly, where I do not write for a specific objective, it should be presumed (as in the general case) that I am writing for the benefit of myself, and so do not intend to communicate anything in great detail excepting in that case.
Post by: Tiruin on July 15, 2017, 11:48:52 pm
[...] The whole process lies against the interest of causal actors such as myself who don't benefit from the system, and so we seek to take preliminary action against it. Of course, a wider range of activity in response to this system requires much more work than the benefit is worth....Blame Flabort about you leaving without making any specifics on why or how it affected you, and go on a really pointy and indirect rant to others doesn't give off this impression. :-\
That's not the preliminary action that you're connecting your words now, to, anyway. And I'd like it if that was cleared up >_<
And, it seems like its how you dealt with these things before--here is pretty different from all the games before; you weren't assertive or accurately direct when you respond with something you're bothered by. There are times where you insert out of context ideas that don't go well with the timing. :-\
So what do you really mean by this, for example? It comes out of nowhere and operates on assuming something about me. :vTBF tries his best (he can only post by phone, he's pretty much young, and he's on the autism spectrum yet is pretty awesome like everyone else); so using whatever you've seen in him (but not mentioned about it at all to him or in public), shouldn't be used as a basis.Y'know, Tiruin, I've always assumed you were aware, but maybe you actually aren't. I've got something to tell you, if that's the case:
You're not a nice person.
And makes it condescending in a blatantly conceptual way. We're people, dude. Talk about it.
If I'm not nice because I said something that bothers the other person, I'm alright with that because it's people's thoughts; it's okay to talk about it, and even say exactly how you feel at me. But if it's going to be used as characterizing other people because it wasn't communicated and just what became from an impression, it's not going to be healthy. I've said all I wanted at you back there, that I disliked how you characterized others without being direct, assertive, or even somewhere that goes with the same quality you've showed in other games since you joined. I'd like the same to be done here.
I'm unsure how aware you are of the meaning of your own actions, but many times your words contradict your goals and objectives you'd like of the group you say you're in with. Or that's how it seems initially anyway :/
Quote
Yes, and when I manage people at work, I am able to achieve discrete, actionable objectives. You could say that doing so is no different from manging people in a game of mafia. The difference is, of course, that one is work and the importance to me of the objectives achieved and the quality of the atmosphere and the individuals contributing thereto within that work context is far greater, while the other is ostensibly play yet revolves around literally asking autistic children not to intentionally lose easy games.So why did you blame Flabort? And, why are you being demeaning to the term of autism?
"Literally asking autistic children not to intentionally lose easy games"
That's a really bad impression you're setting given what you're saying about social management.
E: If it was with how I worded it, I wasn't comparing TBF to anyone, it was using that aggrandizing idea of you using TBF as a term by itself to define an idea that you hadn't the idea to even directly express, at all. [eitherwise, he's okay with people knowing about himself inaslong as it doesn't provoke anything]
Because everytime I saw you use TBF as a basis or a term or just basically that, it is very demeaning.
Because you said NOTHING else than what makes up a passively-aggressive attack on someone else.
Quote
It is instructive that you think I'm bitter, because in this case I am merely acting out of narcissistic and self aggrandizing motives to carry on a conversation about myself>.>
It's weird that you're bringing up really unapplicable terms, because I'm mainly calling you out on being bitter, by how you thoroughly behaved in D1. Nothing else. It'd be better if you brought out your ideas of others or any other concerns here than...framing things like this. It's not instructive out of that--it's that you just quit because of reasons, did nothing with what role you had (only known post-game), and didn't bother PMing anyone at all to clear up any personal concerns. Even the mod.
So to sum it up: I'm bothered when other people are fighting with others and then using them as caricatures to refer to something they dislike without even taking the time to clarify their position. That goes wholly against who or what you've done in the past, doll. That's the only reason I've posted what I've posted about you--nothing else implied [like that...narcissistic and self-aggrandizing stuff :v never thought that.]
Also as a note to Jack's words, I think it's better expressed that he was talking about people REGARDLESS of their familiarity on Bay12, rather than that we know each other being a good sign. :P Like, no matter where--treating others to their concerns is a common thing. That at least, I've seen from my beginnings from Bay12, and seeing other sites in turn. I'm unsure if it's a commonality for people to just throw up the game and quit without leaving anything behind, as a player-priority, but it's something I'm wholly disconnected to.
Post by: Tea on July 16, 2017, 01:09:35 am
- I liked the factional balance (4 mafia vs sk vs cult vs town, I mean) of this game. It was surprising as it unfolded but seemed reasonable.
- It's fun for me that Webadict's modding style is influenced by Xylbot. I used to play in #mafia a ton 7 years back, so.
- I liked that most people in this game were pretty active.
- FoU's, Lenglon's, and Jack's roles in particular were p cool. My revive ability kinda annoyed me for most of the game, but I was glad for it in the end!
- It's kinda funny that everyone died despite the madhouse of revives.
- By mid D1 I started to believe y'all that your site culture is geared toward serious daytime business and had fun solving.
- I've played with Pozzai on at least 5 different sites and I've never had the experience of him being seen as so controversial. Was odd/sorta funny to experience.
- I didn't actually suspect that I was NKed N1 whatsoever (if I'd just hid Pozzai would have lived and I wouldn't have gotten my vote stolen, rip.) Am also bummed no reasoning/discussion of the kill choice actually happened in mafia chat bc I'm self-centered.
- I almost replaced out as a result of flabort's attitude late D1. I don't think the assertion that questioning if someone who specifically said they would be available is tactically lurking is a vicious personal attack was reasonable. Additionally, because he apparently was hoping for a nice game with only people he knows, I went from being someone he could differentiate from doll and Pozzai to being an extension of both of them in less than 48 hours. It was very uncomfortable to be put in a position of assessing what his alignment was based on those kinds of assertions. I felt very unwelcome and like I had to walk on eggshells.
- Highly doubt I'll be playing here again as I don't think I quite fit with your site culture (am not cool with being called a cunt by a relative stranger in this context, among other things) but will still root for you in MU championships in the future.
- Even in postgame I still can't quite understand doll's and Tiruin's writing styles, heh.
Post by: Tiruin on July 16, 2017, 01:14:42 am
- Even in postgame I still can't quite understand doll's and Tiruin's writing styles, heh.;~;
Thanks Tea for the awesome game though :P You're cool \o/ and well wishes to you regardless of the feelings, as Bay12 is open to anyone.
Also, on the note of being called a c---, it's less of what I guess is a bad term as Hector13 is scottish. x3 Although I think it's also my exposure to Australian buddies that helps that, I don't think he meant it as offensive at all. :P
- By mid D1 I started to believe y'all that your site culture is geared toward serious daytime business and had fun solving.To clarify a bit, it's less site culture and more a common playstyle that just happens. It's pretty flexible here, from a person who has played here since 2012 or so.
Post by: Shakerag on July 16, 2017, 02:06:59 am
Post by: hector13 on July 16, 2017, 08:27:35 am
I was in a tremendously foul mood at that point, and that meant my usual language filter went away. In the context used, it was essentially a synonym for "anyone",
Edit for better clarification.
Post by: webadict on July 16, 2017, 10:08:36 am
In retrospect:Thanks for the feedback. It's nice to know what people like and what people don't like. Usually, I take chances with actions and roles. This round was testing the Merge action. I thought it was good, but had some minor issues with it that I think were role-related.
- I liked the factional balance (4 mafia vs sk vs cult vs town, I mean) of this game. It was surprising as it unfolded but seemed reasonable.
- It's fun for me that Webadict's modding style is influenced by Xylbot. I used to play in #mafia a ton 7 years back, so.
- I liked that most people in this game were pretty active.
- FoU's, Lenglon's, and Jack's roles in particular were p cool. My revive ability kinda annoyed me for most of the game, but I was glad for it in the end!
- It's kinda funny that everyone died despite the madhouse of revives.
- By mid D1 I started to believe y'all that your site culture is geared toward serious daytime business and had fun solving.
- I've played with Pozzai on at least 5 different sites and I've never had the experience of him being seen as so controversial. Was odd/sorta funny to experience.
- I didn't actually suspect that I was NKed N1 whatsoever (if I'd just hid Pozzai would have lived and I wouldn't have gotten my vote stolen, rip.) Am also bummed no reasoning/discussion of the kill choice actually happened in mafia chat bc I'm self-centered.
- I almost replaced out as a result of flabort's attitude late D1. I don't think the assertion that questioning if someone who specifically said they would be available is tactically lurking is a vicious personal attack was reasonable. Additionally, because he apparently was hoping for a nice game with only people he knows, I went from being someone he could differentiate from doll and Pozzai to being an extension of both of them in less than 48 hours. It was very uncomfortable to be put in a position of assessing what his alignment was based on those kinds of assertions. I felt very unwelcome and like I had to walk on eggshells.
- Highly doubt I'll be playing here again as I don't think I quite fit with your site culture (am not cool with being called a cunt by a relative stranger in this context, among other things) but will still root for you in MU championships in the future.
- Even in postgame I still can't quite understand doll's and Tiruin's writing styles, heh.
I sometimes retry things that weren't liked another time, to see if it was just the situation or the role it was used in. Someone pointed out that I balanced by alignment this round, and for the most part, this is true, and maybe that's the difference between this and something like FHBYOR. I'm not sure if that's good or bad yet, but I think it demotivates some people to see a really powerful role compared to their own. Hmmm.
Post by: Tiruin on July 21, 2017, 09:57:35 pm
Post by: Persus13 on July 22, 2017, 08:26:06 am
Post by: FallacyofUrist on July 22, 2017, 10:22:58 am