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Finally... => Forum Games and Roleplaying => Topic started by: 10ebbor10 on June 28, 2017, 05:11:26 pm

Title: The Glorious Design Bureau of the People II : 1922 "The art of Boxes"
Post by: 10ebbor10 on June 28, 2017, 05:11:26 pm
This returns (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=131248.435)

This game takes place in fictional Universe, not unlike ours. The Great War has only recently come to an end, and our country, though not heavily involved, still bears the scars of this devastating event. The fighting was not over however. Their eyes opened by the senseless slaughter, the people of our Glorious nation have revolted and overthrown the brutal monarchy that had reigned over the country for almost 200 years. A new government of the people was installed, and peace and prosperity restored. This is however not a time for festivities war is once again looming over our country. Our nations has been shattered by the fires of the revolution, and even now many areas still refuse to head our commands. Our neighbors have descended like vultures, taking our most prized possessions for themselves

Our nation sits on the tip of a large peninsula, our rightful territory spanning across the mountains that divide it and across the sea towards several nearby islands. At least, that is what the official maps say. The reality is starkly different. We're in control of the former heartland of our nation, the large industrial cities located in the South east of the Peninsula. However, the cowardly nation of Echar has used the chaos of our revolution to seize the plentiful coal and iron mines further North, while we did not have the resources to defeat them. Pushing them back will be hard.

Crow's Isle, the Summer retreat of our former royalty and now the location of their diminished dynasty, has gained an alliance with the nation of Vaskia. We suspect they're using the plentiful Gold mines on the Island to pay for this protection. It's an effective deterrent. Vaskia's strong naval power and location would allow them to cut of our trade lanes with remarkable ease.

Lastly, there were a few islands once in our possession across the Peninsula. These islands have undergone a "revolution" of their own, and have voluntarily decided to join with Ufrus, another important power in this area.  This is a blatant powergrap, but not one we're equipped to deal with now.

So Today is the first day of your new job, as head of our nation's only institution on military development. Our military is severely hollowed out after the revolution, and most of the navy has fled together with the monarchy, or has been sunk to avoid falling into enemy hands. Our equipment is seriously outdated, and war is imminent. You've been given control of a small military base, or what's left of it.




Spoiler: Our Glorious Military (click to show/hide)

Designer notes:
I am using plenty of abstractions and best guesses. So well, when giving details, please say what's special about them.

I will occasionally come in with demands from the government and military to develop a general/specific type of thing. You are otherwise permitted to design any kind of hardware you like. Note that the more outlandish technologies you propose may be impossible, have severe drawbacks, or take far more resources than you have to develop. Even for entirely reasonable projects, there will be some element of chance where what you want to produce will end up costing more or less than you anticipated, or what you get may not exactly match your proposed design.

Design of vehicle and ships is a large project, design of new large weaponry is a medium project, and modifications of either and small weaponry design are a small project.

Rules
1. All proposals must be bolded
2. All proposals must have an unique number
     -In case of accidental duplication, please split in 6a and 6b, or add one to the end of the queue. Don't move up everything else. That causes confusion
3. All proposals must be marked as a Large, Medium or Small project.
4. Design proposals begin at 1, for each year
     -Proposals continued from last year will be placed in italics, and include the year before the number. (Only do this for proposals that were worked upon).
5. Production proposals begin at A, for each year.
6. Other proposals, like reorganization of the team or political war plan suggestions will be marked using the greek alphabet
7. Proposals and Votes are unlimited. Please don't abuse this.
8. Each proposal that doesn't follow these rules will be terminated with extreme prejudice.
Example: 1. I propose we mount lasers on sharks
                         1920:1 Seeing as the project wasn't finished last year due to a shark shortage, I propose we continue with mutated Sea Bass

1: All rules for proposals apply except the following.
2: Modifications to proposals will have a number in the format of proposal.sub-proposal.
3: A modification may be supportive (default) or a counter (must be explicit).
4: You can vote for a Proposal and it's supportive subproposal, but not for a proposal and it's counter subproposal.
1.1 I think we should go all the way and mount the National Ignition Facility on the head of a sharkasourus.
1.2 I counter propose that we should instead create lasers that shoot beams composed of sharks.


Format for votes
1: you must specify the proposal number explicitly.
2: you must use the word vote.
3: Each user should make all of their votes with one post if possible
4. You should edit in your vote into the proposal tracker (template below). Always use the latest quoted example.


Spoiler: Proposal tracker (click to show/hide)

Spoiler: Game Rules (click to show/hide)

Title: Re: The Glorious Design Bureau of the People II
Post by: 10ebbor10 on June 28, 2017, 05:12:22 pm
Spoiler: Designs of 1920 (click to show/hide)

Turn (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=164690.msg7499471#msg7499471)

Spoiler: Designs of 1921 (click to show/hide)
Title: Re: The Glorious Design Bureau of the People II
Post by: 10ebbor10 on June 28, 2017, 05:12:45 pm
Reserve 2 out of 3
Title: Re: The Glorious Design Bureau of the People II
Post by: 10ebbor10 on June 28, 2017, 05:13:15 pm
State of our nation :

Map (https://drive.google.com/open?id=1sbmJbd4slQ6ZFt91BWm9ukOsOmgJwgi2iXn1A23Ptnk)

Spoiler: Army (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Navy (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Airforce (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Resources (click to show/hide)


Title: Re: The Glorious Design Bureau of the People II
Post by: 10ebbor10 on June 28, 2017, 05:25:11 pm
It's January 1921.

A bad year for the revolution. You are beset on enemies by all sides, and they seek to tear you apart. But you will not let that happen. Our glorious army is ready to march, our glorious navy ready to set sail. Soon, we will vanquish all our enemies.

But for that, we will need perhaps a bit more modern equipment. Our engineering departements eagerly await your suggestions.
Title: Re: The Glorious Design Bureau of the People II
Post by: Madman198237 on June 28, 2017, 05:46:22 pm
OK. This ought to get interesting fast. So, before I do, a question: What does the general tech level look like for those around us? Are we facing a post-WWI world? Or is Great War just a convenient plot point?
Title: Re: The Glorious Design Bureau of the People II
Post by: 10ebbor10 on June 28, 2017, 05:49:48 pm
Well, the world's technology is equivalent to ours in WW1, but you are located in the literal middle of nowhere. As such, it is in many ways less advanced than you may expect. A bit  of surplus wargear from WW1 going around too.
Title: Re: The Glorious Design Bureau of the People II
Post by: VoidSlayer on June 28, 2017, 05:57:09 pm
Questions: Can we make ships now or do we need to clear out that sunken ship?

In general, we should be preparing for a long naval campaign but start out fixing up some things for our infantry.

1 - Belt-Fed Improved Light cannon - Medium Project - I propose we increase muzzle velocity and introduce a belt fed system for the light cannon.

The light cannon says it can fire 60 rounds per minute but can only hold 10 rounds in the hopper, so I have a comical image of a guy standing over it just frantically dumping boxes of ammo in it.

α - Clear out the sunken destroyer and get the wharf ready to build.

Title: Re: The Glorious Design Bureau of the People II
Post by: Taricus on June 28, 2017, 06:00:06 pm
Right, first things first we need some sidearms for the army, or at least some form of wieldy close combat weapon. Also, is an MG a small or medium project?

2. The Model 1921 Sidearm; A ten round semi-automatic pistol using a 10x25mm cartridge. The round should have decent stopping power and the pistol should be fairly comfortable to use and reliable. [Small Project]

3. The Model 1921 Machine Gun; a belt fed, air-cooled machine gun utilising the 8x54mm cartridge of the Mosin-Nagant, the Model 1921 is intended to be carried by a single soldier (And a second man to carry the ammo). A benchmark of 600rpm is set as the minimum for the gun to be deemed successful, and the weapon should be reliable. [Medium Project]

4. The Model 1921 Trench Gun; A Pump action shotgun using 12mm buckshot cartridges, the box magazine, identical to the Mosin-Nagants, holds five shells and as a first is intended to be detachable from the gun. A short, easily handled weapon idea for close quarters combat as a primary weapon. [Small Project]

5. The M21 Torpedo boat; a fast, petrol engine boat mounting two torpedo tubes and a few Mosins for the crew. Intended to be a light, cheap addition to the navy that can be mass-produced and used as auxiliaries to the main fleet to keep the coastline safe. [Large Project]

Title: Re: The Glorious Design Bureau of the People II
Post by: 10ebbor10 on June 28, 2017, 06:01:32 pm
Quote
Also, is an MG a small or medium project?

Depends on how ambitious you are.
Title: Re: The Glorious Design Bureau of the People II
Post by: Madman198237 on June 28, 2017, 06:03:54 pm
OK. So, having heard of WWI, we are aware of the hideous effectiveness of machineguns and tanks. How do we get ahold of resources we presently have no access to? Can we somehow start drilling for oil? Or is there a specific place that needs to be captured first?

Anyway.
Spoiler: Proposal tracker (click to show/hide)

For my own sanity, I made a functional copy of the spoiler above.
Title: Re: The Glorious Design Bureau of the People II
Post by: Taricus on June 28, 2017, 06:04:59 pm
Well, we can start kicking the asses of those guys to the north of us. That should get us the materials to get more steel.
Title: Re: The Glorious Design Bureau of the People II
Post by: 10ebbor10 on June 28, 2017, 06:12:49 pm
Quote
How do we get ahold of resources we presently have no access to? Can we somehow start drilling for oil? Or is there a specific place that needs to be captured first?

1) Capture the locations that produce it (None present on peninsula)
2) Import it (Just ask your governement)
3) Attempt a survey and hope to get really, really lucky
4) Design alternatives
Title: Re: The Glorious Design Bureau of the People II
Post by: stabbymcstabstab on June 28, 2017, 06:13:18 pm
6. The SAMN-1921; a semi-automatic rifle chambered in 8x54mm, with a five round removable magazine, and using a gas operated, Rotating bolt. [Medium Project]

This should be doable since the French managed it.
Title: Re: The Glorious Design Bureau of the People II
Post by: VoidSlayer on June 28, 2017, 06:15:00 pm
Quote from:  Proposal Tracker
1 - Belt-Fed Improved Light cannon - Medium Project - I propose we increase muzzle velocity and introduce a belt fed system for the light cannon.

2. The Model 1921 Sidearm; A ten round semi-automatic pistol using a 10x25mm cartridge. The round should have decent stopping power and the pistol should be fairly comfortable to use and reliable. [Small Project]
1 - VOI,

3. The Model 1921 Machine Gun; a belt fed, air-cooled machine gun utilising the 8x54mm cartridge of the Mosin-Nagant, the Model 1921 is intended to be carried by a single soldier (And a second man to carry the ammo). A benchmark of 600rpm is set as the minimum for the gun to be deemed successful, and the weapon should be reliable. [Medium Project]
1 - VOI,

4. The Model 1921 Trench Gun; A Pump action shotgun using 12mm buckshot cartridges, the box magazine, identical to the Mosin-Nagants, holds five shells and as a first is intended to be detachable from the gun. A short, easily handled weapon idea for close quarters combat as a primary weapon. [Small Project]


5. The M21 Torpedo boat; a fast, petrol engine boat mounting two torpedo tubes and a few Mosins for the crew. Intended to be a light, cheap addition to the navy that can be mass-produced and used as auxiliaries to the main fleet to keep the coastline safe. [Large Project]
1 - VOI,

6. The SAMN-1921; a semi-automatic rifle chambered in 8x54mm, with a five round removable magazine, and using a gas operated, Rotating bolt. [Medium Project]




A:
B:
C:
D:
E:
F:



α - Clear out the sunken destroyer and get the wharf ready to build.
1 - VOI,

Beta :
Gamma :

I vote for 2 3 and 5.  I also vote for α if it is relevant.

Do you want us to bold the Proposal Tracker?
Title: Re: The Glorious Design Bureau of the People II
Post by: Madman198237 on June 28, 2017, 06:29:14 pm
I'd say make one project to work on high-velocity updates to our cannons, a medium project, instead of the autocannon updates.

Also, NAMES. We're *not* going Arstotzkan! But darnit, we need more cultural background. Somebody with a modicum of creativity, get to work on that!

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

OK. I think the formatting is now OK. Inserted my votes. I've not got any original names. Like I said: I need some sort of background info first. Like in regular AR, where the nations have personality.
Title: Re: The Glorious Design Bureau of the People II
Post by: Aseaheru on June 28, 2017, 07:08:43 pm
 Names depend on performance aswell as design. This is a multi-stage thing, we can assign names to the designs worthy of them. Also, dont bring up Arstotska/Cannala/etc, they arent in this universe.

 Also, (incoherent screaming of being happy this is back)

(will edit in number of suggested variants/new suggestions)
Title: Re: The Glorious Design Bureau of the People II
Post by: Taricus on June 28, 2017, 07:09:31 pm
I'll happily support renaming the designs I posted; the designations there are basically as placeholders.
Title: Re: The Glorious Design Bureau of the People II
Post by: Aseaheru on June 28, 2017, 07:43:03 pm
Have a pile of suggestions.

2.2: Work should also be done on giving the weapon detachable box magazines of atleast ten rounds and a detachable stock.

3.2: Ammunition is to be fed via decintergrating belts, able to be carried in a wire-stiffened bag.

5.2: Also mounts 1x 40mm cannon. Torpedos are to be 500mm in diamiter wet-heater designs.(we dont seem to have a torpedo design assuch)

6.2: Utilize a lighter round instead, namley the 6x45mm round and a ten round magazine.

7: M21 grenade: A high explosive fragmentation weapon designed to be thrown by infantry. The weapon is to be roughly 750 grams, with a 75 gram bursting charge and a timed fuze of 4-5 seconds. The weapon has a smooth exterior and measures 4.5cm across.

8: M1891/21 Grenade Discharger: This weapon basically consists of heavily modified Mosin Nagant with a side-mounted addittional reciever(linked to the trigger, but with a single shared bolt between the two) which is itself attached to a discharger cup capible of holding a lightly-modified M21 grenade. and is thus able to launch a grenade aprox. 200m when utilizing blank cartrages.
(inspiration is provided by the Model 1928 Tromboncino grenade launcher (https://youtu.be/oTT3Vmfu--w))

9: M21 75mm mortar: A smooth bore stokes pattern mortar intended to weigh roughly 60kg and be assembled out of three parts by a crew of three. The weapon is to have a range of two kilometers and be able to fire a 4kg HE warhead.

Beta: Construct a firing range and office for calculating range tables for artillery on various forms of ground.
Gamma: See about getting our nations hands on a FT-17 or three. They may be small, but they are a good place to start.

Quote from:  Proposal Tracker
1 - Belt-Fed Improved Light cannon - Medium Project - I propose we increase muzzle velocity and introduce a belt fed system for the light cannon.

2.1 The Model 1921 Sidearm; A ten round semi-automatic pistol using a 10x25mm cartridge. The round should have decent stopping power and the pistol should be fairly comfortable to use and reliable. [Small Project]
1 - VOI,
2.2 Weapon design is also to include 10+ round detachable box magazine and detachable stock

3. The Model 1921 Machine Gun; a belt fed, air-cooled machine gun utilising the 8x54mm cartridge of the Mosin-Nagant, the Model 1921 is intended to be carried by a single soldier (And a second man to carry the ammo). A benchmark of 600rpm is set as the minimum for the gun to be deemed successful, and the weapon should be reliable. [Medium Project]
1 - VOI,
3.2: Ammunition is to be fed via decintergrating belts, able to be carried in a wire-stiffened bag.

4. The Model 1921 Trench Gun; A Pump action shotgun using 12mm buckshot cartridges, the box magazine, identical to the Mosin-Nagants, holds five shells and as a first is intended to be detachable from the gun. A short, easily handled weapon idea for close quarters combat as a primary weapon. [Small Project]


5. The M21 Torpedo boat; a fast, petrol engine boat mounting two torpedo tubes and a few Mosins for the crew. Intended to be a light, cheap addition to the navy that can be mass-produced and used as auxiliaries to the main fleet to keep the coastline safe. [Large Project]
1 - VOI,
5.2: Also mounts 1x 40mm cannon. Torpedoes are to be 500mm in diameter wet-heater designs.

6. The SAMN-1921; a semi-automatic rifle chambered in 8x54mm, with a five round removable magazine, and using a gas operated, Rotating bolt. [Medium Project]
6.2: Utilize a lighter round instead, namely the 6x45mm round, and a ten-round magazine.

7. M21 grenade; a 750 gram 45mm fragmentation grenade with smooth exterior walls and a 75 gram bursting charge.

8. M1891/21 grenade discharger; a modification of the Mostin-Nagant into a short carbine with the ability to launch a M21 grenade.

9. M21 75mm mortar; a three-piece medium mortar with a range of 2000m and 4kg HE warheads to start with.


A:
B:
C:
D:
E:
F:



α - Clear out the sunken destroyer and get the wharf ready to build.
1 - VOI,

Beta: Construct a firing range and office for calculating range tables for artillery on various forms of ground.

Gamma: See about getting our nations hands on a FT-17 or three.
Title: Re: The Glorious Design Bureau of the People II
Post by: VoidSlayer on June 28, 2017, 09:39:29 pm
Wait, don't we already have a torpedo boat?

How is this new one different then the old one.
Title: Re: The Glorious Design Bureau of the People II
Post by: Madman198237 on June 28, 2017, 09:49:18 pm
No. We have a TBD, AKA a Torpedo Boat Destroyer....also known as a destroyer. A torpedo boat is MUCH smaller, more like a large speedboat, with enormously powerful engines for its size and mounting only some torpedoes. It gets in close, fires the torpedoes, and gets out.
Title: Re: The Glorious Design Bureau of the People II
Post by: VoidSlayer on June 28, 2017, 10:02:24 pm
So something like:

Torpedo Boat
Length: 15m
Displacement: 86 metric tons (??? long tons)
Propulsion: 1mW (1333p)
Speed: 41 km/h

Armor: negligible
Crew: 10
Armament:
1 40mm auto-cannon turrets
4 2 ton torpedo tubes with 2 reloads each

Tonnage Allocations:
20 tons diesel propulsion (1 ton = 20kw)
25 tons speed boat parts
5 tons secondary cannons
12 tons of torpedo systems
24 tons of torpedo
Title: Re: The Glorious Design Bureau of the People II
Post by: RAM on June 28, 2017, 10:35:15 pm
No. We have a TBD, AKA a Torpedo Boat Destroyer....also known as a destroyer. A torpedo boat is MUCH smaller, more like a large speedboat, with enormously powerful engines for its size and mounting only some torpedoes. It gets in close, fires the torpedoes, and gets out.
They are primarily much cheaper than what they are shooting at...

10.1 Large CF80a-1921 "Gladius Pile": I propose a conversion of the 80mm naval gun to a high-precision side-loaded towed field-gun for counter-battery and anti-aircraft roles. The barrel should be separately transported, rifled, and long. There should be an armoured shield to protect the crew. It should feature pneumatic suspension to negate recoil to the platform. Velocity and range must be increased. Attempt to implement a 3-round sealed detachable electric-motor hopper powered by a field generator. Timed fuses preferred. See to it that optics and mechanical aiming are refined and elegant.

11.1 Medium CH160a-1921 "Dinosaur Rift": I propose a 160mm bombardment howitzer based upon the 160 mm naval cannon. The goal is to produce a large volume of utterly devastating fire. A side-loaded, medium-length, smooth-bore barrel on an unadorned gun with spring suspension and a removable barrel. It should be relatively cheap and light while making few if any concessions from its current performance.

12.1 Small CM40a-1921 "Cute Apple": 40mm Infantry Mortar for close-range fire support to infantry forces.

13.1 Large AF400a-1921 "Molar Joy": A fighter-styled Biplane with a range of 400kilometres intended for air defence and balloon hunting.

If we can supply our troops with large quantities of heavy artillery then they can grind the enemy down with systematic ease. We can get clever once we have a solid backbone to our forces.
Title: Re: The Glorious Design Bureau of the People II
Post by: 3_14159 on June 29, 2017, 01:58:20 am
GORYL, GORYL to 10ebbor10!



In my opinion, our most likely (first) enemy is going to be Echar. This means we'll face land battles. And what wins land battles? That's right, artillery.

@10ebbor10: Do we have to design the shells ourselves?

Quote
GM-21 "Ratio" Gun-Howitzer
Intended to fulfill both the role of field gun and howitzer, the GM-21 (Gun Medium 1921) Ratio Gun-Howitzer introduces the new calibre of 105mm into our forces. At more than twice the explosive load of the currently-used 80mm shells while still being far more mobile than the 160mm-calibre guns, it will form the backbone of our army.
It features modern artillery features: A horizontal sliding block breech, hydropneumatic recoil absorption, and a rubber-wheeled split-trail carriage. Befitting its role, it  can elevate to a maximum of 45° for maximum range. The ammunition is loaded in several parts - the basic one is the shell plus a base propellant charge. Up to three additional propellant charges can be added to increase range. The shells come in three versions: High explosive, smoke, and illumination.
Inspired by the M101 howitzer and the 10.5mm leFH.

Quote
Plan Fire Support
14: GM-21 "Ratio" - Large Project
3: Model 1921 Machine Gun - Medium Project
7: M21 Grenade - Small Project OR
shells for the GM-21

This gives us awe-inspiring fire support through the Ratio and the Machine Gun, which both are the killers of the 20th century. The grenade should be extremely useful to clean out trenches and buildings, and is a small project. If we, however, need to design new shells too, it will be replaced by the GM-21 shells to make that usable.
Thoughts?


I've also cleaned up the proposal tracker.
Spoiler: Proposal Tracker (click to show/hide)
Title: Re: The Glorious Design Bureau of the People II
Post by: 10ebbor10 on June 29, 2017, 02:17:59 am
Quote
@10ebbor10: Do we have to design the shells ourselves?

They come with the cannon, but feel free to provide the details.

Quote
Also, NAMES. We're *not* going Arstotzkan! But darnit, we need more cultural background. Somebody with a modicum of creativity, get to work on that!

Yeah, we kind of need a name for the nation.


Title: Re: The Glorious Design Bureau of the People II
Post by: 3_14159 on June 29, 2017, 02:39:49 am
Quote
@10ebbor10: Do we have to design the shells ourselves?

They come with the cannon, but feel free to provide the details.
Edited it in.
Quote
Yeah, we kind of need a name for the nation.
Aquion?
Title: Re: The Glorious Design Bureau of the People II
Post by: RAM on June 29, 2017, 03:29:10 am
Inspired by the M101 howitzer and the 10.5mm leFH.

Quote
Plan Fire Support
14: GM-21 "Ratio" - Large Project
3: Model 1921 Machine Gun - Medium Project
7: M21 Grenade - Small Project OR
shells for the GM-21

This gives us awe-inspiring fire support through the Ratio and the Machine Gun, which both are the killers of the 20th century. The grenade should be extremely useful to clean out trenches and buildings, and is a small project. If we, however, need to design new shells too, it will be replaced by the GM-21 shells to make that usable.
Thoughts?
I think that you should add the project's size to the description of the project itself. You have got it in there, but I feel as though, should the G.M. complain, then you don't really have a solid defence...
I kind of shivered at the 105mm calibre. It was sort of obvious that it was based on a real weapon and I like moving away from that. But then again, I am not the sanest of partici pants so... I mean, sure, there are good reasons for those calibres, but I feel that we can do really well with the 4/8/16/32/40/80/160/320 scheme. 105 is a bit shy to really demolish all comers, 160 is the nice old standby that will reduce pretty much anything. Now, sure, fielding 160s is tough, but if we really focus on it then we can get a healthy supply of massive artillery out and, well, more than anything else people generally wanted more artillery. If you get get some mad numbers up, like, say, 20 160mm howitzers to every brigade, then pretty much every battle can turn into a holding action and win. An 80 on the other hand is grand for something more subtle. It is difficult to get the famous 88 flak out of a 105. We want something precise and agile for primarily defensive fire against enemy artillery and spotters and such. A 105 could certainly be a wonderful weapon, but I don't feel that the benefits outweigh the pretty numerical scheme and advantage of limiting our range of calibres. So, in short, I have a personal vendetta against your chosen calibre and challenge you to pistols 160mm howitzers at dawn!
And I sort of drifted into why I want to flood the world with artillery instead of mussing about with infantry weapons.
And I also revealed why I have a vendetta against 10x25mm pistols, 12mm buckshot, 45mm grenade launchers, and 75mm mortars... Real Warriors use 16mm buckshot and love the recoil! Legends of the revolution carry a 32mm buckshot in each hand and shoot 16mm H.V. sniper rounds out of their noses! Although, honsetly, 12 is almost inoffensive. It at least tries to be neatly between 8 and 16 even if there is clearly no need for such compromises.

A: Big Guns
16 heavy cannons
16 light cannons

It gives our infantry something to shoot with, in theory, not that they really have any means of using the things, but lets assume that is not the case, as they are listed and we are allowed to purchase. I at least hope to get a discount on upgrading them to a new design.

δ: Name our country "Juice Wagon"

ε: RAM has lost the right to name things and must pass a to-be-determined challenge to earn it back.

RAM VOTEs for 1, 5, 10.1, 11.1, 12.1, A, Beta, δ
Spoiler: Proposal Tracker (click to show/hide)
Title: Re: The Glorious Design Bureau of the People II
Post by: Detoxicated on June 29, 2017, 05:48:39 am
Let us name ourselves "People's protectorate of Quetzac".
Generally a modern communist aztec style nation...
Title: Re: The Glorious Design Bureau of the People II
Post by: Madman198237 on June 29, 2017, 08:06:38 am
Let us name ourselves "People's protectorate of Quetzac".
Generally a modern communist aztec style nation...

Let's not.

Ever.
Title: Re: The Glorious Design Bureau of the People II
Post by: Khang36 on June 29, 2017, 08:32:51 am
Questions: Can we make ships now or do we need to clear out that sunken ship?

In general, we should be preparing for a long naval campaign but start out fixing up some things for our infantry.

1 - Belt-Fed Improved Light cannon - Medium Project - I propose we increase muzzle velocity and introduce a belt fed system for the light cannon.

The light cannon says it can fire 60 rounds per minute but can only hold 10 rounds in the hopper, so I have a comical image of a guy standing over it just frantically dumping boxes of ammo in it.

α - Clear out the sunken destroyer and get the wharf ready to build.

Well while in our circumstances we will need a belt feed system, hopper feed auto-cannons are known to be workable even with rates of fire up to 330 rounds a min it just required all of the ammo to be in an easy to reach spot and something like 1 to 3 loaders per gun. The advantages of the hopper system over belt feed is that the gun is lighter as you don't need mechanisms strong enough to pull the belt to load the next shell, and that assuming heat and ammo is not an issue the gun would in theory be able to shoot forever un interrupted. The draw back is that it require a larger gun crew to make it effective which is not viable if space or man power is limited.
Title: Re: The Glorious Design Bureau of the People II
Post by: Madman198237 on June 29, 2017, 08:40:57 am
At our present low-tech lots-of-guys standpoint, hopper-fed is good enough right now.

We'll work on that after we fill out some various gaps in our forces.
Title: Re: The Glorious Design Bureau of the People II
Post by: Khang36 on June 29, 2017, 08:44:37 am
Fair enough and with a rate of fire of 60 shells you only need 1 or 2 loaders any ways though we will need to fix the elevation issue.
Title: Re: The Glorious Design Bureau of the People II
Post by: Madman198237 on June 29, 2017, 08:49:45 am
Fair enough and with a rate of fire of 60 shells you only need 1 or 2 loaders any ways though we will need to fix the elevation issue.

Good luck fixing that.

It's because the ammo falls out of the hopper as you traverse the gun at high elevations. Also, gravity won't help load as much, meaning reduced firerate...or the gun just stops firing.
Title: Re: The Glorious Design Bureau of the People II
Post by: Khang36 on June 29, 2017, 09:10:26 am
Fair enough and with a rate of fire of 60 shells you only need 1 or 2 loaders any ways though we will need to fix the elevation issue.

Good luck fixing that.

It's because the ammo falls out of the hopper as you traverse the gun at high elevations. Also, gravity won't help load as much, meaning reduced firerate...or the gun just stops firing.
We can have something like those stuff you see on oneway gears to keep the shells from falling out.
Title: Re: The Glorious Design Bureau of the People II
Post by: Blood_Librarian on June 29, 2017, 09:46:37 am
η: Name our glorious country Gubirsk
Title: Re: The Glorious Design Bureau of the People II
Post by: Detoxicated on June 29, 2017, 11:59:23 am
Viva quetzac...

please elaborate why you disagree madman... we have seen fake russia fake greece arabia and england why not aztecs?
Title: Re: The Glorious Design Bureau of the People II
Post by: Taricus on June 29, 2017, 12:00:12 pm
Aztecs are boring, that's why :P
Title: Re: The Glorious Design Bureau of the People II
Post by: Madman198237 on June 29, 2017, 12:03:00 pm
Because Aztecs require blood sacrifices, and we need those idiots to be meatshields for the army, not killed for the vanity of the priests.
Title: Re: The Glorious Design Bureau of the People II
Post by: Detoxicated on June 29, 2017, 01:07:55 pm
Well since those days we have reformed... we are commjnist and therefore atheist by definition.  Also you do realize that it was mostly catholic propaganda...
Title: Re: The Glorious Design Bureau of the People II
Post by: TopHat on June 29, 2017, 02:49:56 pm
PTW.
Title: Re: The Glorious Design Bureau of the People II
Post by: RAM on June 29, 2017, 03:21:21 pm
I would hazard a guess that the most compelling reason to avoid Aztec themes is because their entire culture was systematically destroyed and so there really isn't much to base anything off of. We would have an easier time being Carthaginian-themed...
Title: Re: The Glorious Design Bureau of the People II
Post by: Nirur Torir on June 29, 2017, 04:08:49 pm
5.3: Make it steam powered. We have 4/5 coal used, but 1/1 diesel.

7.1: [Small Project]

8.1: [Small Project]

9.1: [Medium Project]

12.2: Counter-proposal: [Medium Project] - I think it's too ambitious for a small project, and we have two medium slots anyway.

14.1: [Medium Project]


B: Rifles and Destroyers
 1900 rifles (190 production)
 7 Revolutionary Torpedo Boat Destroyer (1617 tonnage + 210 production)


This brings us up to 10 destroyers. This still isn't nearly enough, but I don't want to be completely without replacement troops.

Zeta:
The small engineering teams will work together as a medium team for this year.

I vote for 5 & 5.3, but not 5.2. I also vote 6, 11.1, 12.1 & 12.2, B, alpha, beta, and zeta.
The boat, because we need a cheap naval force expansion, a rifle upgrade, artillery, and briefly merging the small teams for more artillery. I don't want 5.2 so that we can build more, and build them purely with the wharf. We'll need that factory output for artillery.

Spoiler: Proposal Tracker (click to show/hide)
Title: Re: The Glorious Design Bureau of the People II
Post by: Madman198237 on June 29, 2017, 04:32:20 pm
Sorry man, but 5.3 is getting the hatchet right now.
Gasoline/diesel is far more efficient that a steam boiler. So, the original torpedo boats WERE steam launches, but we can go faster, smaller, and more efficient by using diesel, even if we're limited.




GAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHH Why can't you people follow the simple hideously complex formatting procedures!?!?!?
Spoiler: Proposal Tracker (click to show/hide)
Title: Re: The Glorious Design Bureau of the People II
Post by: Taricus on June 29, 2017, 04:37:54 pm
Agreeing with Madman, a steam engine is not going to be useful for a torpedo boat.

Spoiler: Proposal Tracker (click to show/hide)
Title: Re: The Glorious Design Bureau of the People II
Post by: 10ebbor10 on June 29, 2017, 04:46:43 pm
Yeah, first, a few clarifications.

For resource consumption, I round up. You can run more than 3 boats on a shipload of Diesel.

On that note, if you want a better voting procedure, propose and put it to a vote and I'll consider it.
Title: Re: The Glorious Design Bureau of the People II
Post by: Madman198237 on June 29, 2017, 04:55:46 pm
Alright, going to mention this NOW:

For Future Reference:
Proposals NEED a constant and unchanging format.

1. Designation Name [Project Size]
     1.1 Addendum
     1.2 COUNTER 1.1:
2.  UFN-LSD-41 Laser Sharks of Violent Death, carry lasers and eat enemies! [Small Project]
(Votes for project, aligned RIGHT)
     2.1 Add plasma lances!
(Votes for this addendum, aligned right)
     2.2 COUNTER 2.1: No plasma lances, too heavy for the sharks.
(Repeat, ad nauseam: Votes AGAINST addendum 2.1, align RIGHT)
     2.3 COUNTER ORIGIN: No "Violent" death, we're a peaceful country
(Votes against part of the original proposal)


FOLLOW THE BLASTED FORMATTING!!!!
Also, I made the votes a bit clearer.

Spoiler: Proposal Tracker (click to show/hide)
Title: Re: The Glorious Design Bureau of the People II
Post by: Detoxicated on June 29, 2017, 05:05:00 pm
But all i want is lots of q and x in names and hypernodern pyramid buildings
Title: Re: The Glorious Design Bureau of the People II
Post by: Madman198237 on June 29, 2017, 05:10:59 pm
No.

Also, we need a better designation scheme. I actually stole the Intercontinental Arms Race one and gave what would likely be the designation if we actually did make Laser Sharks of Death in the present ICAR year (1941).
Title: Re: The Glorious Design Bureau of the People II
Post by: 3_14159 on June 29, 2017, 05:16:30 pm
I think that you should add the project's size to the description of the project itself. You have got it in there, but I feel as though, should the G.M. complain, then you don't really have a solid defence...
Good point.
Quote
I kind of shivered at the 105mm calibre. It was sort of obvious that it was based on a real weapon and I like moving away from that. But then again, I am not the sanest of partici pants so... I mean, sure, there are good reasons for those calibres, but I feel that we can do really well with the 4/8/16/32/40/80/160/320 scheme. 105 is a bit shy to really demolish all comers, 160 is the nice old standby that will reduce pretty much anything.
I strongly disagree. Don't look into it as calibres, look at it as shell weight. The 160mm calibre shell is going to mass eight times the 80mm shell. The gun itself is probably not going to scale quadratically but cubically, which means it weights four times as much.
In other words, we'd have the choice between a pretty anemic artillery gun and one that is too difficult to transport. A 105mm (or 100mm, I don't care), hits a sweet spot between those: Its shells are double the weight of the 80mm gun while the gun is only 50% heavier.

To make this more clear (using approximate numbers from real guns):
The German 105mm LeFH 18 massed about two tons. The Soviet 152mm M-10 mortar massed four tons. A LeFH was apparently drawn by a team of six horses, which'd mean you'd need to coordinate and feed about twelve horses per 160mm cannon or develop artillery tractors post-haste.

However, I should add that my main priority is getting us artillery. I'll vote for the 160mm cannon if it becomes clear it's our artillery choice - but we'll have to develop a vehicle next turn for it to be effective.

Quote
An 80 on the other hand is grand for something more subtle. It is difficult to get the famous 88 flak out of a 105. We want something precise and agile for primarily defensive fire against enemy artillery and spotters and such.
We can still do that - follow the real-world standardization of 105mm (or 100mm) for light artillery guns (which we're going to be restricted to in the beginning due to horse-drawn ones), 155 (or 160)mm for normal artillery, and 80mm as a general high-velocity gun.
That's actually also my criticism with 10.1 - it's stated to be a cannon for counter-battery and AA fire - but those two are mutually exclusive roles. AA requires extremely high muzzle velocities while counter-battery will require large HE payloads.



Lastly, what's the plan and role for the Cute Apple mortar?
Title: Re: The Glorious Design Bureau of the People II
Post by: RAM on June 29, 2017, 05:57:48 pm
The Cute Apple is for infantry to provide their own D.F.A. without having to call it in from another unit. It is basically the same as the 160mm except that instead of it being temporarily assigned by a commander, aimed by professional spotters, and communicated with by lines or radio, it is permanently assigned to a unit or something and ordered by a lieutenant waving to someone and then pointing at a church steeple... It doesn't have the pock-marked-wasteland effect of proper howitzers, but provides convenient indirect fire that can be easily managed at a local level and transported by infantry without appreciable loss of mobility to almost any location for deployment.

I feel that a vehicle for supporting artillery is necessary. We don't really have the resources to support self-propelled artillery and even relatively light units would benefit from mobility.

In the antiaircraft role I am mostly thinking of shooting down balloons. Although an eventual ack-ack round could probably be supported. And a high velocity is definitely desired, although that much can be limited, as it is more about gaining range against opposing batteries than hitting high-speed targets, but range is range and it would be nice to have a gun that can plausibly hit relatively high biplanes even if the odds are against it... And I know that I am betraying myself for saying this, but the design was loosely based upon the K17 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/10_cm_K_17) which came up when I was looking for artillery technologies, which seem to be rather difficult to identify. So basically I want it to have high range and accuracy, which is important for counterbattery and eliminating spotters and shooting down aircraft. True, it needs a good idea of where the enemy batteries are, and we should probably put a design into that at some point, but shooting completely blind rarely achieves anything.
Title: Re: The Glorious Design Bureau of the People II
Post by: Aseaheru on June 30, 2017, 08:18:49 am
 The 40mm mortar is a tad small for most uses though, it would likley have a range similar to the 2" mortar, which had a range of roughly 460 meters. A slightly heavier weapon would be preferable in my eyes as a result.


 In any event, I am voting for 2.1, 5.1/5.3, 6.1, 7, 8, 9, and 10 as designs, B as production, α, β, and γ as other projects.

 Reasoning behind votes: 2.1 as 2 does not state magazine type or capacity, and stocks make everything better(plus we dont have to worry about idiotic laws on short barreled rifles), 5.1/5.3 as a boat with just two torpedoes is nearly useless, may aswell give it some form of harassment gun to bolster its output, plus it then gives us potential basis for some sort of PT boat(and sticking with steam for it is a tad silly), 6.1 as we might aswell get into the intermediate cartridge game early, plus we dont really ahve to worry about ammunition stocks quite asmuch at the moment. 7 and 8 would give us some major infantry shock power, with grenades for everyone and the ability to launch them for every squad(the IRL example, while a weak grenade, had something like six launchers per platoon), while 9 gives us a good medium mortar and 10 gives us the basis for an excellent AT and tank gun, aswell as a good AAA piece with the right ammunition.
 As for why somany votes? Because most probally wont pass.
Spoiler: Proposal Tracker (click to show/hide)
Title: Re: The Glorious Design Bureau of the People II
Post by: Madman198237 on June 30, 2017, 08:25:24 am
Asea, we're using first three letters of your name, not the whole thing, please fix that.
Title: Re: The Glorious Design Bureau of the People II
Post by: somemildmanneredidiot on June 30, 2017, 08:53:06 am
PTW
Title: Re: The Glorious Design Bureau of the People II
Post by: 10ebbor10 on June 30, 2017, 09:36:39 am
Quote
The M21 Torpedo boat; a fast, petrol engine boat mounting two torpedo tubes and a few Mosins for the crew. Intended to be a light, cheap addition to the navy that can be mass-produced and used as auxiliaries to the main fleet to keep the coastline safe. [Large Project]
Team Alpha

The M21 torpedo boat's production proceeds at fairly rapid pace, and it's ready for testing by midyear. It's a fairly simple the design. Most of the ship's displacement is taken up by it's powerful engine, while the remainder is used to haul the heavy and powerful torpedoes it fires.

The torpedoes are identical to those currently used on the Revolutionary, simple dry burner designs with fairly short range, but a powerful warhead. Their presence makes the ship a significant threat, it it can use it's speed to avoid being hit as it delivers the weapons. Lack of armor means any hit would go straight through the vessel, and likely kill or injure the crew.

The engineering team report that they had greater success than expected, and were able to make additional improvements beyond normal expectations. These improvements are ascribed primarily to the work of one engineer who managed to coordinate the work of his fellows in efficient manner.

Choose 1 :
- Faster : Increase speed by 10 km/h
- Eased Production : Ship can be build in landside factories at the cost of 30 production points
- Armored : Upgrade Armor to protection against small arms
- Nimble : Gain trait "Nimble"
- Local resources : Eliminate metal cost

M21 Torpedo Boat (Production time: 1 month)
Length: 22m
Displacement: 45 metric tons
Propulsion: 2200 kW
Speed: 61 km/h
Range : Strictly coastal, short
Armor: negligible
Crew: 10
Armament:
2 2 ton torpedo tubes with 2 ton torpedo

Tonnage Allocations:
15 tons of boat parts
22 tons of short ranged petrol propulsion (1 ton = 100kw)
4 tons of torpedo systems
4 tons of torpedo

Quote
The Model 1921 Machine Gun; a belt fed, air-cooled machine gun utilising the 8x54mm cartridge of the Mosin-Nagant, the Model 1921 is intended to be carried by a single soldier (And a second man to carry the ammo). A benchmark of 600rpm is set as the minimum for the gun to be deemed successful, and the weapon should be reliable. [Medium Project]

Team Beta

The Model 1921 Machine gun is a terrifying weapon, primarily to our logistic officers. It's chews up ammunition at frighting rate, and goes through targets even faster. Even so, it does not reach the targets said. The gun fires just a bit too slowly, and is just too heavy to carry comfortably. On the other hand, it is perfectly reliable as long as it's treated with respect and given sufficient maintenance.

Cartridge: 8x54mm
Overall Length: 1.3m
Barrel Length: 0.6m air cooled
Magazine: 200 round belt fed
Weight: 20 kg
Rate of Fire: 550 rounds per minute
Cost : 2

Quote
11.1 Medium CH160a-1921 "Dinosaur Rift": I propose a 160mm bombardment howitzer based upon the 160 mm naval cannon. The goal is to produce a large volume of utterly devastating fire. A side-loaded, medium-length, smooth-bore barrel on an unadorned gun with spring suspension and a removable barrel. It should be relatively cheap and light while making few if any concessions from its current  performance. [Medium Project]

Progress on this weapon was troubled and slow, but in the end the team delivers. Their primary trouble was reducing the weight of the gun, and though they have succeeded in that, it has come at a significant cost. Overzealous weight reduction, combined with design errors in the suspension and carriage have rendered the cannon noticeably inaccurate, shifting of target with each shot.

Medium CH160a-1921 "Dinosaur Rift
A modification of the naval cannon to make it suitable for land warfare. It has a maximum rate of fire near 3 rounds per minute. It is typically crewed by a dozen men. This is a medium velocity gun without significant armor penetration. It's relatively moveable thanks to it's removeable barrel, but the flawed spring suspension renders it inaccurate.
Weight: 6 ton
Construction cost: 20
Flaw : Inaccurate

Quote
2. The Model 1921 Sidearm; A ten round semi-automatic pistol using a 10x25mm cartridge. The round should have decent stopping power and the pistol should be fairly comfortable to use and reliable. [Small Project]

Weapon test report : The Model 1921 Sidearm makes for an effective bludgeon, and it's decent weight also makes it fairly suitable for throwing. As a pistol however, it has some noticeable flaws. On paper, the gun is a semi-automatic pistol. In practice, for reasons our engineers struggle to explain, it often has the tendency to fire it's entire magazine in quick succession.

Model 1921 Sidearm
Semi-automatic Pistol
10 Round Magazine
Flaw : Uncontrolled automatic fire
Cost:0.05

9x25mm cartridge
Bullet: 9x12mm
Cartridge:10x25mm
A medium power pistol cartridge


Quote
12.1 Small CM40a-1921 "Cute Apple": 40mm Infantry Mortar for close-range fire support to infantry forces.

Work on this Mortar progress better than most previous designs. The 40 mm mortar project makes no spectacular breakthroughs, but delivers a simple and effective weapon. It consists of a simple metal tube fixed to a recoil absorbing baseplate. The drop sets of an impact fuse in the bottom of mortar shell, which launches the mortar shell towards the enemy.

CM40a-1921 "Cute Apple"
Weight : 50 kg
Range : 400 meters
Shell weight: 1.5 kg
Cost : 2



Quote
α - Clear out the sunken destroyer and get the wharf ready to build.
Beta: Construct a firing range and office for calculating range tables for artillery on various forms of ground.

A number of workers spends weeks to refloat the sunken destroyer. In the end, their efforts are not particularly succesfull, and the ship has to be destroyed in place before it can be removed. It took till the end of the year before the dockyard was freed, but you did eventually succeed in getting it operational for next year.

Work on the artillery firing range progresses quite fast, as is it consists primarily out of empty terrain that will soon have various holes in it. Targets are provided, as well as the needed equipment to prepare ranging tables for all our cannons. The military will appreciate no longer having to figure out those things themselves.



Quote
16 heavy cannons
16 light cannons

Our workmen work day and night to provide at least a bit of artillery for each army to use. By the end of the year, 16 heavy cannons stand ready, as well as 16 lighter cannons. The heavy cannons use the older pattern, as the new cannon was not finished at the time of their production.



News

You have received an urgent request from military command. The revolution must move forward, and they aim now to sweep over the Echarians who so cowardly invade our nation in it's moment of weakness. Our primary intent is the recapture of our Iron and coal mines, which are essential to our industrial economy. Already, their loss is causing problems for our citizens, and thus, they can not wait much longer.

The war will commence in two years.

In the early stage of the war, they expect 4 fronts to form.

1) The Naval Front : The least worrying of all fronts. Not 7 years prior, Echar's fleets were heavily damaged in a conflict with Vaskia. Their attempted invasion of the independent island state Echlea was smashed by the Vaskian fleets, who then went on to bombard several Echarian ports to force a quick surrender. The resulting treaty force Echar to obey strict limitations on the size of their fleet and the number of vessels they're allowed to possess.

2) The Mountain Front : The direct path from our nation to the enemy capital. These mountain roads are heavily fortified, and hard to pass even in peacetime. We will need a miracle weapon if we wish to force these passes. Our generals prefer to merely fortify our side of the border, and focus on reconquering our territory first.

3) Going North (Mountain Route) : There are few passes through the mountains, and the primary pass the enemy uses to supply their forces is remarkably close to our front lines. A rapid assault could potentially cut of the enemy from their primary supply lines, depriving them of all equipment they can not make in occupied territory, or smuggle across the smaller passes. The enemy is acutely aware of this thread, and has reinforced this area and the town that guards the pass. On the other hand, the stratagem is risky, as our forces could easily be cut of as well. Our generals are unlikely to attempt it if you can not provide them with a swift means of transport, and a means to take and hold the entrance to the pass pass.

4) Going North (Coastal Route) : The default solution. A broad push forwards, using our numerical strength to push the enemy before us. A strategy likely to result in significant casualties, but one without excessive risk. Our generals consider this the default war plan, and would appreciate any weapon that can aid this.

Intelligence on the enemy :

The revolution fights on in occupied territory. They have provided us with the following info :

We outnumber enemy forces slightly, though they may be able to summon additional forces from their heartlands in time.
Forces in our current occupied consist primarily off conscripts, though a significant cadre of Elite personel is present. The mountain passes are guarded exclusively by elite units.
The enemy lacks in heavy artillery, due to the trouble of taking such equipment over the mountain passes.
The enemy has seized several steam locomotives, and has outfitted them with captured artillery pieces.
The enemy possess effective infantry equipment (an accurate rifle, a decent sidearm and dangerous grenades)
The enemy has a decent machine gun.



State of our nation :

Map (https://drive.google.com/open?id=1sbmJbd4slQ6ZFt91BWm9ukOsOmgJwgi2iXn1A23Ptnk)

Spoiler: Army (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Navy (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Airforce (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Resources (click to show/hide)

Title: Re: The Glorious Design Bureau of the People II
Post by: somemildmanneredidiot on June 30, 2017, 09:45:36 am
Possible things:

Recruitment Center: Apparently was a thing in previous games, the sooner we get this up and running the more we'll get out of it.

Artillery Tractor: Increased mobility of Artillery, helps set up for Armored Cars and Tanks

Fixing the Dinosaur: Fairly self explanatory.
Title: Re: The Glorious Design Bureau of the People II : 1921 "Preparations for War"
Post by: Khang36 on June 30, 2017, 09:54:10 am
We will also need to get a light howitzer for our force to bring through the mountain though i am split on whether to go for something in the 100mm range or an 80mm one.
Title: Re: The Glorious Design Bureau of the People II : 1921 "Preparations for War"
Post by: Madman198237 on June 30, 2017, 10:13:16 am
Small project: Fix dinosaur
Small project: Fix that dumb pistol. That or just train soldiers to use an automatic pistol.

Medium project: Artillery tractor.
Medium project: Truck (Combine two medium teams to get us working on a truck that does everything?)

Large project: !!Science!! building. Aimed at improving our researchers' effectiveness, this building is a combination of rooms of doing the math, doing the engineering, rooms for parts, some workshops, and it sits right next to the firing range, to facilitate the rapid production and testing of prototypes.
Title: Re: The Glorious Design Bureau of the People II : 1921 "Preparations for War"
Post by: Strongpoint on June 30, 2017, 11:00:35 am
We have quite a lot of unused construction supplies. How about designing pillboxes allowing us to free men from mountain fronts?
Title: Re: The Glorious Design Bureau of the People II : 1921 "Preparations for War"
Post by: stabbymcstabstab on June 30, 2017, 11:19:09 am
Well me might as well keep the automatic feature on the pistol, and we definitely want to combine the truck and Artillery tractor it'll be easier for our supply lines.
Title: Re: The Glorious Design Bureau of the People II : 1921 "Preparations for War"
Post by: Madman198237 on June 30, 2017, 11:29:35 am
Small project: Fix dinosaur
Small project: Fix that dumb pistol. That or just train soldiers to use an automatic pistol.

Medium Teams: Combine for season, create all-purpose truck and trailer capable of hauling all our artillery guns.

Large project: !!Science!! building. Aimed at improving our researchers' effectiveness, this building is a combination of rooms of doing the math, doing the engineering, rooms for parts, some workshops, and it sits right next to the firing range, to facilitate the rapid production and testing of prototypes.

Work Force: Construct bunkers in mountains---all paths.
Work Force: Rework firing range/place close to artillery range (Testing!)

M21 Torpedo Boat: Nimble trait (Dodging fire all day long!)
Produce TWELVE torpedo boats this year (Fill one shipbuilding/boatbuilding dock for 12 months)

Do we need to build the machineguns?
Title: Re: The Glorious Design Bureau of the People II : 1921 "Preparations for War"
Post by: VoidSlayer on June 30, 2017, 12:02:22 pm
The machine guns would be effective in defensive positions and if we can mount them on armored cars we would be golden.

Make those mountain bunkers machine gun mounted bunkers.

We should choose nimble and build as many as our naval construction capacity will allow, we wont be able to take their ports but we can at least completely shut down their navy.

We should probably specify the fix to the dinosaur, namely fixing the suspension to improve accuracy.

We probably need a dedicated facility to build ammo for our machine guns above and beyond the norm due to how fast it chews up ammo.

For the pistol, a fire selector would be ideal as sometimes unloading the entire clip is a good idea.  Again, we need more ammo there.

Rifles and grenades seem to be a strong danger as well.
Title: Re: The Glorious Design Bureau of the People II : 1921 "Preparations for War"
Post by: Madman198237 on June 30, 2017, 12:31:40 pm
Right now, our bolt-action rifles are fine. Obviously, the bunkers will be crawling in machineguns. We'll get the fix specified when we build the thing. The machinegun's firerate is not that superb, according to the design. Less than 600 RPM, and fairly heavy. Going to want that fixed probably next year. Should be a decent Small Project.

Fire selector, probably. Should actually form a good basis for an SMG, actually xD
Title: Re: The Glorious Design Bureau of the People II : 1921 "Preparations for War"
Post by: 3_14159 on June 30, 2017, 01:55:45 pm
Let me introduce a few more detailed proposals...

Quote
CT-22 "Mule" Cargo Truck (Medium)

A 6x6 off-road capable truck, rated to carry 2.5 tons of cargo. It is usually equipped with a simple canvas-covered flat back, but adding a tank converts it to a tanker truck. The cabin is simple sheet metal with a windscreen. The truck has a tow-bar, allowing it to tow guns or trailers. It mounts the to-be-developed 100hp engine.

Quote
ET-22 100hp engine (Small)
A simple diesel engine for use in our cargo truck. Prioritize ease of maintenance and fuel consumption. Should produce 75-100hp.

Quote
CH160a-1921 "Dinosaur Rift" Mod. B (Small)
The Dinosaur Rift is a perfectly fine gun, but it is hindered by its carriage and suspension. The Mod. B exchanges the carriage for a new one and reverts a few of our more drastic weight reduction measures. Any remaining time is spent reducing cost.

I have started the proposal tracker. I have not included any previous proposals, since they were one-line, non-bolded ideas.

Spoiler: Proposal Tracker (click to show/hide)


And some quotes-from-ebbor from discord on questions I had:
Quote
Quote
Are the Dinosaur Rift's 3rpm burst or sustained fire?
Wiki says 3 rpm for firerate of similarly sized howitzers of the same era.
So, it's similar to that.
So, it is burst fire rate. Sustained is probably about 30-40 rounds per hour.

Quote
Quote
Do we have to design engines separately?
If you don't, you get the generic engine of mild suckyness
Civilian engines, two smaller engines kobbled together or what the overworked engineers could come up with
If you can find a civilian engine you want to use that would reasonably exist in your country, or be accesible for import, you may even have no problems with the rest of the design.


Quote
Quote
How do we get more factories?
Like in the last game, you ask for them with the special orders of the third category

Quote
Quote
Would we build the recruitment centre with engineers or workers?
Workers + Political favors
The idea of recruiting people is hardly a foreign concept
Same for the offices
Title: Re: The Glorious Design Bureau of the People II : 1921 "Preparations for War"
Post by: Strongpoint on June 30, 2017, 02:21:25 pm
Quote
PB-21
PB-21 or pillbox 21 is a relatively small concrete guard post equipped with two Model 1921 Machine guns and 40mm autocannon. Should be able withstand direct hits from medium artillery pieces.
This thing should be fairly cheap to build and can even defeat light armored vehicles

Spoiler: proposal tracker (click to show/hide)


Title: Re: The Glorious Design Bureau of the People II : 1921 "Preparations for War"
Post by: Nirur Torir on June 30, 2017, 02:36:16 pm
Quote
- Local resources : Eliminate metal cost
That's pretty good. We can get 480 of those ships per turn, with (I think?) no factory costs.

Fuel will be limiting how many we can field, but it doesn't matter how many we lose in battle.

Edit: Armor would also be pretty nice, in case someone puts a machine gun on their ships.
Title: Re: The Glorious Design Bureau of the People II : 1921 "Preparations for War"
Post by: Madman198237 on June 30, 2017, 10:08:07 pm
We want nimbleness. Armor will slow it down, more speed is pretty much unnecessary at this level of speed, and eliminating metal cost is unnecessary.
Title: Re: The Glorious Design Bureau of the People II : 1921 "Preparations for War"
Post by: Aseaheru on June 30, 2017, 10:15:27 pm
 With the boat, I think making the thin nimble would be a benefit.

 Ah, how are we planning on doing the various things? For the pistol, some sorta fire limiter or at the least a stock would be beneficial. We still need to design grenades, get indirect fire support, and so on.
 Bringing over designs from last turn, with some minor changes to the shotgun(mostly giving it a useful payload).

1920:4. The Model 1921 Trench Gun; A Pump action shotgun using 20mm cartridges loaded with buckshot loaded into a five round, single stack detachable box magazine. A short, easily handled weapon idea for close quarters combat as a primary weapon, particularly when one of our standard bayonets is mounted. [Small Project]

1920:7. M21 grenade; a 750 gram 45mm fragmentation grenade with smooth exterior walls and a 75 gram bursting charge.[Small Project]

1920:8. M1891/21 grenade discharger; a modification of the Mostin-Nagant into a short carbine with the ability to launch a M21 grenade.[Small Project]

1920:9. M21 75mm mortar; a three-piece medium mortar with a range of 2000m and 4kg HE warheads to start with.[Medium Project]


Formally Suggesting for Others:

5- M1921/22 Pistol- Further development includes working on some form of fire selector for the weapon, development of a detachable(or at the least, folding wire) stock, and (if time permits) larger magazines.

α: Construction of recruitment and training center, to get ahold of extra workers and engineers

β: Fortify the mountain frontier


Question for Ebbor: What sort of magazine do we have on the pistol, besides detachable box. Namely, what sort of stacking and what sort of feeding?

Voting for: 1,2,5, all 1920 designs, α, and finally β.
Spoiler: proposal tracker (click to show/hide)

Dang mad ninjas.
Title: Re: The Glorious Design Bureau of the People II : 1921 "Preparations for War"
Post by: 3_14159 on July 01, 2017, 09:35:02 am
Hm, I just noticed that the Mule is probably a large project. Switching that.

Also, let me introduce you to proposal γ
Quote
γ: Para Bellum

Lacking as we are in industry, we need more factories. For this, request factories for small-arms, artillery, engines, and vehicles. One production line each of 400pps, with more going to small-arms and artillery.

Also,
Quote
A: Machine Guns and Torpedo Boats
Build machine guns (200 total) in the factory; torpedo boats (12 total) in the dockyard.

Voting for 1, 2, 3, 1920:9, A, α, γ, and Local Resources.



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Title: Re: The Glorious Design Bureau of the People II : 1921 "Preparations for War"
Post by: Madman198237 on July 01, 2017, 09:43:00 am
I would propose a different method of voting, since this one is honestly exhausting to keep track of.
Voting in plans:
Someone writes a plan, that involves what will be produced, how it will be researched (Combine teams? Break apart teams?), what will be built, etc. Then, making modifications to the original as they wish to gather more support or whatever, people vote on coherent plans, saving us from the lunacy of the 1, 1.1, 1.2, 1.3,  alphabetagammawhoevenknowsanymore, A.B.C.D.E. etc.

It would look like this:

Plan One (Includes a link somewhere, preferably): 5
ABC, DEF, GHI, JKL, MNO
Plan Two: 1
PQR

and so on.
Title: Re: The Glorious Design Bureau of the People II : 1921 "Preparations for War"
Post by: Aseaheru on July 01, 2017, 10:24:19 am
 That doesent work well when people want some of one plan and some of another. In other words, almost always.
Title: Re: The Glorious Design Bureau of the People II : 1921 "Preparations for War"
Post by: Madman198237 on July 01, 2017, 10:30:58 am
Then someone else proposes a compromise plan, and people decide whether or not that plan is better than originals.
Title: Re: The Glorious Design Bureau of the People II : 1921 "Preparations for War"
Post by: Strongpoint on July 01, 2017, 11:45:18 am
I am happy to have the current voting system. Having no defined plans is good for the game like this. It creates natural compromises and encourages proposals
Title: Re: The Glorious Design Bureau of the People II : 1921 "Preparations for War"
Post by: Madman198237 on July 01, 2017, 11:46:53 am
The plan system won't remove singular suggestions, it just makes it much simpler to figure out everything being voted for and how it will be done, etc.
Title: Re: The Glorious Design Bureau of the People II
Post by: Parsely on July 01, 2017, 12:37:14 pm
The Cute Apple is for infantry to provide their own DFA without having to call it in from another unit. It is basically the same as the 160mm except that instead of it being temporarily assigned by a commander, aimed by professional spotters, and communicated with by lines or radio, it is permanently assigned to a unit or something and ordered by a lieutenant waving to someone and then pointing at a church steeple... It doesn't have the pock-marked-wasteland effect of proper howitzers, but provides convenient indirect fire that can be easily managed at a local level and transported by infantry without appreciable loss of mobility to almost any location for deployment.
What does DFA stand for here? I thought you mistakenly used "DFA" to mean direct fire artillery, but you mentioned that mortars are indirect fire weapons so I don't think that's right.
Title: Re: The Glorious Design Bureau of the People II : 1921 "Preparations for War"
Post by: RAM on July 01, 2017, 03:12:22 pm
Death from above. The light mortar is basically the close-air-support of our time. Just as the large howitzer is the airstrike of our time. ... We could consider designing a really nice aircraft engine...
Title: Re: The Glorious Design Bureau of the People II : 1921 "Preparations for War"
Post by: Nirur Torir on July 01, 2017, 04:37:42 pm
B: Use that production:
  480 'M21' torpedo boats.
  150 '1921' machine guns, 50 'cute apple' mortars.

Voting for projects 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, B, α, γ, and no metal costs.

I really don't see nimbleness helping much if the boat goes down against a single rapid-fire 40mm hit. Having tons of reserves does help.

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Title: Re: The Glorious Design Bureau of the People II : 1921 "Preparations for War"
Post by: 10ebbor10 on July 01, 2017, 05:11:23 pm
Anyway, some rough guidelines on resources, which I'm currently still rebalancing

Workforce : 1 represent 10 000 men, or 1000 production points worth of factories
Food: 1 unit represents supplies for 10 000 men
Coal: 1 unit operates 5000 tonnes of steam propulsion, can be combined with 1 iron to get 1 steel, or can power 2000 pp worth of factories
Iron: 1 unit can be combined with 1 coal to get steel, or can allow 1000 pp worth of factories to make designs containing iron
Steel:   1 unit allows 2000 pp worth of factories to make designs containing steel
Construction Supplies : 1 unit allows maintenance on 10 000 pp worth of factories in peace conditions
Diesel:  1 unit operates 1000 tonnes of diesel propulsion
Trade Convoys : 1/3  1 unit allows the import of 1 resource
Title: Re: The Glorious Design Bureau of the People II : 1921 "Preparations for War"
Post by: Madman198237 on July 01, 2017, 08:58:52 pm
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Title: Re: The Glorious Design Bureau of the People II : 1921 "Preparations for War"
Post by: Khang36 on July 02, 2017, 03:44:21 pm
For some reason i am not getting any notifications for this thread.

6. Mk1 85mm howitzer (medium): is a light artillery piece. The goal of this design is to have a gun that is light enough for our force to be able to bring them with the infantry to location that is not assesable for our larger guns and vehicles.
Title: Re: The Glorious Design Bureau of the People II : 1921 "Preparations for War"
Post by: 10ebbor10 on July 03, 2017, 02:19:55 pm
Anyway, update tomorrow, so if you want to vote, vote.
Title: Re: The Glorious Design Bureau of the People II : 1921 "Preparations for War"
Post by: Strongpoint on July 04, 2017, 01:58:01 am
Signal rocket launcher SR-21
It is a simple launcher that fire a firework like rocket into the sky as an additional way to send signals to friendly troops


This little project should improve coordination of our troops before we eventually go radio. Also, It is a nice first step to our rocket program

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Title: Re: The Glorious Design Bureau of the People II : 1921 "Preparations for War"
Post by: Aseaheru on July 04, 2017, 02:53:08 am
 It could also be handled faster and at less cost(since we wouldn't have to build piles of flare guns) as upgrades to grenades, mortars, or even arty or shotguns.
Title: Re: The Glorious Design Bureau of the People II : 1921 "Preparations for War"
Post by: stabbymcstabstab on July 04, 2017, 09:33:13 am
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Title: Re: The Glorious Design Bureau of the People II : 1921 "Preparations for War"
Post by: RAM on July 04, 2017, 04:02:40 pm
Voting for ummmm...
1, 1.1, 4, 1920.4, 10, B, δ

δ: 2000 prods: Request continuous upgrades to our production until we reach 2000. To be done in accordance with national needs, but within 4 years.

I am thinkin that we should have separate proposal and vote stages, in order to facilitate getting all the votes on a single post as required by the rules...
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Title: Re: The Glorious Design Bureau of the People II : 1921 "Preparations for War"
Post by: 3_14159 on July 07, 2017, 04:46:15 pm
ebbor asked me to collect the votes. We originally had a tie between the Dinosaur Rift fix and the grenade; somemildmanneredidiot asked me to throw in their vote for the former, breaking that tie.


Quote from: Chosen Projects
Large: CT-22 "Mule" 2.5t Cargo Truck
Medium 1: ET-22 100hp engine
Medium 2: PB-21 Pillbox
Small 1: M20/21 Pistol Work
Small 2: CH160a Dinosaur Rift Mod B
Title: Re: The Glorious Design Bureau of the People II
Post by: 10ebbor10 on July 10, 2017, 11:11:56 am
Quote
CT-22 "Mule" Cargo Truck (Medium)

A 6x6 off-road capable truck, rated to carry 2.5 tons of cargo. It is usually equipped with a simple canvas-covered flat back, but adding a tank converts it to a tanker truck. The cabin is simple sheet metal with a windscreen. The truck has a tow-bar, allowing it to tow guns or trailers. It mounts the to-be-developed 100hp engine.

Relevant rolls : 8, 8, 8, 8, 1, 1, 1,  1,
Progress : 3(standard) + 4 (Rolls) - 7 (Difficulty) = Completed
Flaws : 4 (rolls)

From a distance, the Mule looks like an impressive vehicle. Unfortunately, the moment you try to actually drive it, all hell breaks loose. Quite literally, as a matter of fact. The sound the engine makes is hellish, bearable only because it's drowned out by the massive rattling unleashed whenever the vehicle moves.  The 6 wheel drive system is bizarrely complex and largely handmade, and breaks down repeatedly under heavy loads (too much weight), light loads (too much rattling), or mean looks. Night time testing has revealed that the truck does not do well under fire.

CT-22 "Mule" 6x6 Cargo Truck
Carrying capacity: 2.5 ton
Engine power : 100 hp
Maximum speed: 20 km/h
Cost: 10
Flaws : Expensive, Loud, Unreliable, Fragile

Quote
Medium 1: A simple diesel engine for use in our cargo truck. Prioritize ease of maintenance and fuel consumption. Should produce 75-100hp.

Relevant rolls : 9, 8, 8, 1, 9, 1
Progress : 2 (standard) + 4 (rolls) - 4 (Difficulty) = 2 (excess progress : 1 Flaw solved)
Flaws : 2 - 1 = 0

The ET-22 engine is a decent engine. In test it proves to be suitably reliable, produce only moderate amounts of noise, and have a decent fuel consumption. Our engineers are hence somewhat confused about what actually happened when their engine was included in the vehicle project

ET-22 100 hp Diesel engine
Weight: 300 kg
Power: 75 Kw (100 hp)
Displacement:
     - Short      : 1 ton
     - Medium   : 1.5 ton
     - Long       : 3 ton   ((This is the range that is used in ships were no default range is given))

Quote
PB-21
PB-21 or pillbox 21 is a relatively small concrete guard post equipped with two Model 1921 Machine guns and 40mm autocannon. Should be able withstand direct hits from medium artillery pieces.
Relevant Rolls : 8, 8, 8, 10, 9, 8, 9
Progress: 2 (standard) + 7 (rolls) - 3(Difficulty) = 6 (excess progress : 3 bonii)
Flaws = 0 -1 - 3 = 4 Bonii

The pillbox teams excels in their given task, and soon has developed not only a simply standardized concrete guard posts, but a whole series of designs for a wide variety of situations. They didn't have time to explore all their ideas, but were well on their way with many possible solutions.

The basic design is a small hexagonal concrete guard posts equipped two machine guns and an autocannon. It's a bit cramped, but professional design of the pillbox makes it comfortable and tolerable even for prolonged periods of time.

PB-21 (Pillbox : Small)
Armament : 2 Model 1921 Machine guns, 1 40 mm autocannon

Bonus vote (Pick 4):

- Simple variant : A smaller variant without the cannon
- Casematte variant : A much larger variant equipped with a 80 mm cannon
- Artillery bunker variant : A variant equipped with a 160 mm cannon
- Cheap
- Camouflaged
- Communication Network : Provisions for a field telephone are included, although they may not be included in every bunker
- Rapid Construction : Design considerations ensure that the bunker can be build rapidly
- Well-supplied: Special design consideration has been given to the safe storage of large amounts of ammunition

Quote
Small 1: M1921/22 Pistol- Further development includes working on some form of fire selector for the weapon, development of a detachable(or at the least, folding wire) stock, and (if time permits) larger magazines.
Relevant rolls : 1, 8
Progress : 1 (standard) + 1 (rolls) - 1 (Difficulty) = 1 (excess progress: 0.5 bonii)
Flaws : 0 + 1 - 0.5 = 1 Minor Flaw

Work on the M1922 Pistol continues, although it remains troubled. The flaw that caused the unintended firing has been found, and a fire selector now allows it to be disabled completely. However, because the gun was never intended to be fully automatic, firing full auto has a tendency of making the weapon overheat.

Model 1921 Sidearm
Semi-automatic/ Automatic Pistol
10 Round Magazine
Flaw : Overheat during prolonged automatic fire
Cost:0.05

Quote
CH160a-1921 "Dinosaur Rift" Mod. B (Small)
The Dinosaur Rift is a perfectly fine gun, but it is hindered by its carriage and suspension. The Mod. B exchanges the carriage for a new one and reverts a few of our more drastic weight reduction measures. Any remaining time is spent reducing cost.
Relevant rolls : 10
Progress : 1 (standard) + 1 (rolls) - 1 (Difficulty) = 1 (excess progress: 0.5 bonii)
Flaws : 0 - 1 = 1 Bonus

Further attempts at resolving the issues with the Dinosaur Rift have been largely succesfull. The Spring suspension has been improved, ensuring that the gun can now be fired somewhat accurately. Further attempts have also resulted in some other, minor improvements.

Medium CH160a-1921 "Dinosaur Rift
A modification of the naval cannon to make it suitable for land warfare. It has a maximum rate of fire near 3 rounds per minute. It is typically crewed by a dozen men. This is a medium velocity gun without significant armor penetration. It's relatively movable thanks to it's removable barrel.
Weight: 6 ton
Construction cost: 20

Bonus : (pick 1)
- Accurate
- Rapid fire rate (4 rpm)
- Lower weight (4 ton)
- Cheap (15 cost)



Quote
Build machine guns (200 total) in the factory; torpedo boats (12 total) in the dockyard.

Construction of machine guns and a small initial sample can take off. Your naval engineers note that many more torpedo boats could be build, though he isn't certain if their fuel-hungry engines and expensive torpedoes could be afforded if you were to go all out on their production. The boats themselves are cheap, but their supply chain isn't.



Quote
α: Construction of recruitment and training center, to get our grubby mitts on a few extra workers and engineers

The recruitment and training center has been completed, pushed through the bureaucracy with remarkable ease after you pointed out the failure of the engineering team. One downside is that given your new educational facilities, your supervisors will now expect your men to be actually compentent at their jobs. In future failures, they may require that certain sanctions are taken.

Quote
γ: Para Bellum (1x small-arms, 1x artillery, 1x engine, 1x vehicle factories)

Finally, it appears, the war industry kicks into gear. By the end of the year, 3 new factories are under your domain. One dedicated to the production of small arms, the other to the production of artillery, and a third dedicated to vehicles and their engines. In preparation of the coming war, the central authorities have provided additional resources and workforce to temporally run double shift, ensuring doubled production next year.



News

In order to supply our small surface fleet, our government has seen fit to increase imports of gasoline fuel. For now, most of it goes to reserves, as only 12 boats are operational.

Additional manpower and iron reserves have been dedicated to military industry, allowing intensified preparations for the upcoming war. We're nearing, but have not yet reached the limits of our industrial capacity, showing the desperate need to recapture our mines.

Our spies have gathered evidence that Echar faces a slight shortage of basic nitrate following a severe accident at one of their fertilizer production facilities. These compounds are not only important for agriculture, but also for the production of many explosives. Naval command would like to have as many mobile long ranged naval vehicles as can be procured in a short period, so as to cut of Echar from these vital supplies.

The war will commence next year.



State of our nation :

Map (https://drive.google.com/open?id=1sbmJbd4slQ6ZFt91BWm9ukOsOmgJwgi2iXn1A23Ptnk)

Spoiler: Army (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Navy (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Airforce (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Resources (click to show/hide)

Title: Re: The Glorious Design Bureau of the People II
Post by: 3_14159 on July 10, 2017, 03:00:04 pm
- Truck
Wow. We need to fix that. Medium project for next turn, I think.

- Engine
Very nice. Should even be able to power our first plane experiments, if just so.

- PB-21
Seven successes? Wow. Also, probably Cheap, Comm Network, Rapid Construction, Camouflaged.

- M1911/22 Pistol
Works for now. Just don't fire it automatically.

- Dinosaur Rift
Perfectly fine. Start immediate production. For now, I'd probably choose either Accurate or Low Weight.

As for production, we should probably produce more machine guns and more artillery. We also don't have a choice but to produce trucks (because what else?)


For other projects, maybe a small armoured car?
Title: Re: The Glorious Design Bureau of the People II : 1922 "The art of Boxes"
Post by: RAM on July 10, 2017, 04:58:21 pm
I would really like cheap artillery, but...
4cheap=60 = 3x4=12 spm
3fast=60 = 3x4=12 spm
...
for that matter, reduced weight...
3 light = 9
2 fast = 8
Higher rate of fire would be better for concentration of forces and transportation.
Cheaper would be better for broader distribution and redundancy.
Accurate would be accurate...
Light would be more mobile...
I think that I have to go light. A 4 tonne 160mm gun would be nice as it is and would be quite compatible with self-propelled artillery, or even a large tank-destroyer... Or a minimally-armoured shore-bombardment naval vessel?
It hurts to not go of cheap because of the oceans of heavy artillery that I want, but light just seems too dreamy for long-term prospects...
Also because our truck is terrible : (

The Bunker?
A dedicated antipersonnel bunker would be very covenient, but machineguns can just be left out in the open too. I would certainly want it if there were no other options but...
An 80mm would be very nice for armour penetration, even if it is low velocity. We are currently defending a mountain border so armour should not be an immediate issue, but the prospect of a heavy vehicle just ignoring our biggest bunker is unsettling.
160 is dreamy... It is probably not ideal for use against vehicles, likely having tracking issues against fast targets and potentially being difficult to aim down, but this would really make the bunkers an important position. They can really extend their influence with something like that, and as a bunker it is somewhat difficult to attack them, so it ought to be a pretty good way of forcing people to deal with our bunkers rather than just going around them.
Cheap is cheap. Would be very nice combined with a 160mm that ought to be expensive. Can we game the system with this? We probably don't want to invest too heavily in static defences, and cheap tends to show its best side when you are trying to blanket the world, but cheapening a small investment works too.
Camouflaged is something that I really really want. It just screams "don't just blow up all my bunkers!". But stealth doesn't really last long once you start shooting, and bunkers can't reposition after exposing themselves. So hiding seems a bit much to hope for. It can still make for a difficult target for an aeroplane if they are shooting at the green thing in the green field, but yeah, not likely to be worth much in the long-run.
Communications is very nice as a strongpoint that ought to be able to reliably provide communications in the midst of troubles. Then again, we really need communications for our forces anyway... On the other hand, if they had a big gun then they would want to communicate with spotters... Hopefully this would become redundant in short order, but it is a good kind of redundancy...
Rapid construction is only a once-off that has little long-term benefit in its function. It is very tempting to just discard it and save the point. Like charisma on a barbarian... But being able to quickly set up your positions means that you can set them up in places where you normally couldn't dues to time constraints, and defensive positions are rather time-critical anyway. we will be advancingthe line eventually, so they will become useless in time, may as well have them up for as long as possible and take the pressure off your mobile forces as soon as possible... Not really sure that we can pass this one up.
Well-supplied is, erm... Well it ought not be too massively important so long as logistics are good. In theory they will be familiar routes through friendly territory. In practise they are predictable routes for forces that can be encircled. On the other hand, they are bunkers, they can't really turn around, if they are encircled then the bunker probably isn't the most important part of the defences. I mean, sure, it might be pinning down reinforcements, but generally if they can encircle you then they can continue to encircle you. But a reliable ammunition depot is always a good thing, and not having to worry about the guns going silent because a truck broke down is invaluable...

I am planning to vote
Artillery bunker variant
Rapid Construction
Well-supplied
Communication Network
Cheap

1: (small) 1923 4x20mm "pixie-dust"(P.D.) round: A small round for small jobs. Designed to reliably penetrate heavy clothing and chip bone. Should be reliably lethal if aimed at the heart at short range. This is useful for concealed weapons and high portability+high rate of fire armaments with a "don't worry so much about hitting the wrong thing" mentality. The low lethality is somewhat of an advantage as it may reduce civilian casualties in chaotic situations, and ought to be forceful enough to temporarily incapacitate someone who is hit repeatedly, thus being sufficient for close-quarters while encouraging rapid reactions. Ideally comes in a double-decker magazine for thickness close to that of an 8mm round while having almost four times the capacity.
 Probably not necessary, but it would be nice to get it right, even if it is probably going to be a minimally-used round.
2: (small) 1923 4x20mm "Paranoia's Debt" submachine gun: A very high rate-of-fire(840 per minute?) fully-automatic weapon adapted from the lessons of our pistol. Designed for casual-use with a large(84?) side-loaded box(double-decker?) magazine and minimal recoil that allow a soldier to shoot at shadows with minimal concerns.

3: (medium) 1923 80mm "Armadillo Nest" artillery: Designed for long range, accuracy, and some measure of protection, this gun is primarily intended for the destruction of enemy howitzer positions and spotting balloons.

Edit: Added box magazine reference to sub.
Title: Re: The Glorious Design Bureau of the People II : 1922 "The art of Boxes"
Post by: Nirur Torir on July 10, 2017, 05:38:28 pm
I'd say we need cheap and rapid-construction. Camo and well-supplied has nice synergy if they get behind enemy lines, letting them continue cutting off supplies. Remember that we can improve these with small projects later, once we're past the mountains.
Title: Re: The Glorious Design Bureau of the People II : 1922 "The art of Boxes"
Post by: Aseaheru on July 10, 2017, 07:56:47 pm
 Depending on where we shove it, camo and well-supplied could be the difference between an enemy attack failing and it succeeding. For example, a beach landing. Camo makes it harder for bombardment to properly hit it(atleast if its designed for going after landed troops), while well supplied just keeps it fighting for longer.

 I would say to grab the camo, phones, supplies, and possibly the arty one(mostly as we should be able to make the arty ones able to act as decent anti-aircraft spots).

 On the rest... The truck needs replacing outright, the pistol I am sad to see lost the stock in its design work, the arty... Eh.

 
 On Ram designs:

 4x20mm is a really small round, for refrence .22lr is ~5.6x25mm. What sorta side magazine are you talking about on the SMG(if its stick, even with double stack thats gonna be a long, long magazine), and for that arty, same rounds as already are used on out 80mm cannon?

 On what I think we need prior to this war starting in earnest:
-Grenades. Everything is better with grenades, particularly assaults.
-indirect, platoon level fire support(AKA, light mortars)
-Light, maneuverable artillery support for that gap between platoon level and heavy tube arty. Heavier mortars are one option, so are pack howitzers.
-Squad-level indirect fire. Because if grenades are good, so are half your platoon being able to launch them 200+ meters. Rifle grenades are one possibility, grenade launchers another. However, rifle grenades have the issue of having to load blanks(or get lucky and design a shot-trap) and grenade launchers are harder to design new rounds(say, HEAT ammunition) for. Plus, if you have a grenade launcher, you really, really need to get it as something mounted on a rifle(or have a machine pistol, but thats a poor second).
-Assault weapons, be it shotguns, SMGs, machine pistols, or going right for an intermediate cartridge rifle. Battle rifles are... subpar.
-Sniper/marksmans rifles, namely the optics for them that we can shove on our standard rifle.


4. M23 Optical Sight; Development of a four-power fixed optic, designed to be individually fixed to a weapon and left there, and which each optic specific to the weapon.  A small, fixed aiming marker is provided. The design is intended initially to be paired with out standard rifle.[small]

5. The Model 1923 Trench Gun; A Pump action shotgun using 20mm cartridges(based off of ten-gauge shotgun shells) loaded with buckshot loaded into a five round, single stack detachable box magazine. A short, easily handled weapon idea for close quarters combat as a primary weapon, particularly when one of our standard bayonets is mounted. [Small Project]

6. M23 grenade; a 750 gram 45mm fragmentation grenade with smooth exterior walls and a 75 gram bursting charge.[Small Project][REQUIRED FOR 7]

7. M1891/23 grenade discharger; a modification of the Mostin-Nagant into a short carbine with the ability to launch a M23 grenade.[Small Project]

8. M23 75mm mortar; a three-piece medium mortar with a range of 2000m and 4kg HE warheads to start with.[Medium Project]

9. FAT-23; The Field Artillery Tractor, model of 1923, is a four wheel drive vehicle weighing aprox. 5 tons and powered by one of our ET-22 engines(which may also power a winch mounted on the bumper) intended to tow any of our existing artillery pieces on or off of the road, along with their crews and perhaps some of their ammunition. If time permits, development of additional versions is to be attempted, such as ambulances.[medium project]

Alpha: Attempt to acquire a number of FT-17 tanks from whoever, to provide a basis for domestic tank design.
Title: Re: The Glorious Design Bureau of the People II : 1922 "The art of Boxes"
Post by: NAV on July 10, 2017, 08:19:32 pm
For the pillboxes I will vote for Well supplied, 80mm arty version, camouflaged, and cheap.
Title: Re: The Glorious Design Bureau of the People II : 1922 "The art of Boxes"
Post by: Madman198237 on July 10, 2017, 08:25:26 pm
Alright, so I listed a bunch of stuff out on Discord. Camo is a one-shot thing for an emplacement, which means it's a *really bad idea*. As soon as you start firing, they know you're there. And they aren't going to forget, not unless you either kill them all (Basically impossible) or they're complete incompetents (Entirely impossible).

So here's my plan:
DESIGN BONUSES
Dinosaur: CHEAP! Massed artillery is everything right now.
Pillbox: Cheap, Rapid Construction, Communications Network, Well-Supplied. This gives us a lot of bunkers, really fast, with real-time information reaching the capital. Also, each bunker can operate for extended periods of time without resupply.

THIS TURN'S DESIGNS
LARGE: Make a scouting biplane. One forward-firing machinegun, IF the machinegun-propeller-syncing design works. If not, unarmed scout.
MED 1: Fix that truck!
MED 2: Bigger bunker. Armament options as follows: 2 80mm guns and 2 MGs, or 4 MGs and 1 160mm gun.
SMALL 1: Propeller sync-fire system (I don't remember the actual name, but this system allows a machinegun to be synchronized with the propeller of a plane, and thus fire through it)
SMALL 2: Reduce weight and increase reliability of the machinegun (Take it to our original specifications, basically)

THIS TURN'S PRODUCTION
Production: Make a new shipyard, with 20000 tons capacity, minimum. 75 workmen.
Production 2: Dedicate about 25 workmen to building the new bunkers on the frontlines, as well as a network of trenches. They will likely be working through next turn.

Now then, on to reasoning, for those who care. Long story short, this turn is all about building up for war. We fix our machineguns to be more infantry-portable, fix the truck, and work on an air force. We get a shipyard prepped for the naval construction we're going to hopefully be doing, and start building up bunkers as fast as possible, as well as creating ALL the variants of the bunker (By using the present blueprint and making it substantially bigger and heavily armed).

As for the design choices, I mostly explain them, but the important parts are as follows: We don't need more versions, because we want BOTH and can just do a medium design to get that. ComNet means that we always know what's happening. This is INVALUABLE in a combat situation. Also, it means a large bunker can be used as an EXCELLENT command and control post. Also, it speeds up communications, until we can manage to get one-per-squad radios.
Title: Re: The Glorious Design Bureau of the People II : 1922 "The art of Boxes"
Post by: RAM on July 10, 2017, 08:26:53 pm
Yes, 4x20mm is intended to be small, and it is reliant upon hitting more than once(S.M.G.) or precision(The spy/commando sticks their elbow-gun right upto the victim's back). It's lack of armour penetration and killing power is somewhat of an advantage given that we don't want our soldiers to be overly concerned about killing allies or civilians if they pull the trigger too quickly or shoot at a wall, and hopefulyl it would keep the recoil manageable. It definitely has drawbacks, but our rifles can somewhat cover those if we need to shoot people through walls and such.
As a double-stacked magazine, it would be half length. And as a 4mm round, it would again be close to half-length. 84/4=21. Now it would probably be larger than a 21 round clip, but I would expect it to be much smaller than the 32-round 9mm magazine from a Sten gun for example. I honestly don't think that it would be a problem. I will mention that it is a box-magazine though.

P.S.
 Remember that votes have to be bolded and all occur in a single post. So far all the talk of voting has been informal discussion.
Title: Re: The Glorious Design Bureau of the People II : 1922 "The art of Boxes"
Post by: Madman198237 on July 10, 2017, 08:31:02 pm
Yep, that was intentional. So far, I'm just proposing a plan. Going to see if anyone has any better suggestions before I clutter up a votebox. Those get nasty enough WITHOUT extra help.
Title: Re: The Glorious Design Bureau of the People II : 1922 "The art of Boxes"
Post by: RAM on July 10, 2017, 08:37:57 pm
Small question: How heavy would the light-version of the Dinosaur Rift be without its barrel, and can it shoot down?
Title: Re: The Glorious Design Bureau of the People II : 1922 "The art of Boxes"
Post by: Madman198237 on July 10, 2017, 08:43:27 pm
Dinosaur Rift is a howitzer, right? Then it can shoot in pretty much any way you want...unless you mean like below, say, -5 degrees (So 5 degrees of depression), which might be a little bit non-standard.
Title: Re: The Glorious Design Bureau of the People II : 1922 "The art of Boxes"
Post by: RAM on July 10, 2017, 09:31:48 pm
I was actually thinking rather non-standard. Such as, perhaps, 60 degrees down...
Title: Re: The Glorious Design Bureau of the People II : 1922 "The art of Boxes"
Post by: Madman198237 on July 10, 2017, 09:35:16 pm
Why?
Title: Re: The Glorious Design Bureau of the People II : 1922 "The art of Boxes"
Post by: RAM on July 10, 2017, 09:37:57 pm
I was just sort of wondering about how powerful our aircraft engines would need to be...
Title: Re: The Glorious Design Bureau of the People II : 1922 "The art of Boxes"
Post by: Madman198237 on July 10, 2017, 09:43:10 pm
No, RAM.

That sort of thing leads to AC-130 Spectre gunships. And then we'll be so militarily-unbalanced as you wouldn't even believe, with a SINGLE powerful aircraft and nothing else anywhere.
Title: Re: The Glorious Design Bureau of the People II : 1922 "The art of Boxes"
Post by: RAM on July 10, 2017, 10:21:49 pm
I was thinking more like a dive-bomber built around the gun with only a single shot, maybe upgraded to three or four as our loading systems improve. Give it armour-piercing shells to use against ship's decks and bunkers, and high-explosive for trenches and troops. It would be able to shoot from outside of the range of most air defences and hit with a higher velocity, probably with as much accuracy as a dive-bomber. It would certainly have problems, but I like to think that it could work well in its chosen rle. And if we can get the gun down to 1.5 tonnes then it doesn't seem that implausible
Title: Re: The Glorious Design Bureau of the People II : 1922 "The art of Boxes"
Post by: Aseaheru on July 10, 2017, 11:41:17 pm
 RAM, if yer talking having many, many rounds into a target, with a round that anemic(best case and stretching the laws of physics somewhat, its equivalent to .22lr, with much past that requiring all sorts of fancy bullet designs or at least a heavily bottle necked case) you need alot of rounds in a short period of time. Hell, the one example I can find of a sub-gun using a round of that sorta style had a magazine of 165 rounds at the least, and you could get 275 round magazines for the thing.

 We still would also have the issue that we would have to supply the things with ammunition.


 Single shot attack aircraft, if yer going that way, would be more efficient and cheaper as rockets or bombs, not as single-shot cannon, particularly if yer leaving the barrel off to get it about.
Title: Re: The Glorious Design Bureau of the People II : 1922 "The art of Boxes"
Post by: RAM on July 11, 2017, 12:19:34 am
A lot of my assumptions come from the MP7 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heckler_%26_Koch_MP7) which has a 4.6x30mm round that apparently has models that can pierce personnel armour. It was about as close as I could find to what I wanted, but seemed more powerful than desired. Perhaps 4x24 would be better? Or I could go to 4x32 and current technologies would make up the difference? That is a very long round for a low-velocity weapon with no aspirations to armour penetration. Ammunition supplies shouldn't be an especially difficult problem. The ammunition is lighter afterall. 6 seconds of sustained firing is quite a lot for such weapons, I would like more but can't really justify it, but if we end up with 1200 round per minute it would still leave enough firing time for the job. The objective is to waylay someone as soon as you see them, then close in to finish them with precision fire or capture.release them It IS an extremely light round, but there are advantages to that... Or we could just do what all the boring people do and have our submachinegun chambered for something boring like 8x20mm and have no standardised 4mm round for our spy gadgets...
Title: Re: The Glorious Design Bureau of the People II : 1922 "The art of Boxes"
Post by: Aseaheru on July 11, 2017, 02:26:08 am
 The 4.6x30mm round is about the same size as the 5.7x28, roughly 8x40mm taking into account the bottleneck and the like. It also requires all sorts of fancy bullet design.
 Spy gadgets arent quite our job, our brand new pistol round would fulfill much the same role when used in SMGs, and we are rather crap at designing things. After all, look at how that truck worked out.
Title: Re: The Glorious Design Bureau of the People II : 1922 "The art of Boxes"
Post by: RAM on July 11, 2017, 02:50:32 am
On the other hand, we designed a rather good bunker, hopefully...
The advantages of the 4x20 are that there are fewer barriers to firing.
A missed shot is less important because there is less recoil and it can hold more ammunition and it is unlikely to go through a wall and hit something that you don't want it to.
A bad target identification is less important because of the low lethality.
Pointing at the wrong thing is less important because the weapon is lighter.
Hitting a non-vital bodypart is less important because you can sweep it to something else with a low recoil and high rate-of-fire, and can probably fire for longer between reloads.

The downsides are that it cannot penetrate cover or armour and it has low lethality.

 I am not looking for the same performance that the 4.6x30mm gets. The 4.6x30mm can go through body-armour, which is not the objective here. The objective is something that can be used to burst into a room and spray as you enter and not stop until the average battle tiime is concluded and still have a few bullets left over for an emergency all without tagging the team that was sneaking in the back or checking the adjacent room. It is designed so that the twitchiest member of the squad can be given a gun and put that twitchiness to use with some hope of not regretting it. It is designed to extremely quickly tag them a little then tag them a lot. A single bullet is not likely to achieve much, but it doesn't need to, it has friends, lots and lots of friends.
Title: Re: The Glorious Design Bureau of the People II : 1922 "The art of Boxes"
Post by: VoidSlayer on July 11, 2017, 03:30:51 am
We should probably make a more modern cruiser that is faster and better armed to act as a capital ship.  We need to destroy enemy naval installations and shipping once our short range torpedo boats do their work.  Hell we might even load two of em on the cruiser as escorts of a kind.  This seems more important then an airplane for the immediate war effort.

If we want artillery bunkers lets just choose that option, we could make an armored car or a very reliable rifle or an improve torpedo or something else.
Title: Re: The Glorious Design Bureau of the People II : 1922 "The art of Boxes"
Post by: RAM on July 11, 2017, 04:56:06 am
So, ummm, is anyone going to put up that truck, artillery tractor, and Shore bombardment designs that we need?
Title: Re: The Glorious Design Bureau of the People II : 1922 "The art of Boxes"
Post by: Nirur Torir on July 11, 2017, 06:16:32 am
I think we need to build trucks this turn if we're using them for the assault, which is a problem.

Question: If we over-research truck bug fixes, aiming to have them finished early, can we start producing them this turn?
Title: Re: The Glorious Design Bureau of the People II : 1922 "The art of Boxes"
Post by: Aseaheru on July 11, 2017, 06:32:28 am
 We have a truck/fast arty tractor suggested, as 9.
Title: Re: The Glorious Design Bureau of the People II : 1922 "The art of Boxes"
Post by: Madman198237 on July 11, 2017, 08:48:04 am
We have evidently not started quite yet, as we've not made a votebox or anything.

Anyway, we need to just kinda not make that truck right now, because it's a disaster. The truck REVAMP needs to fix it and include the artillery trailer and stuff.
Title: Re: The Glorious Design Bureau of the People II : 1922 "The art of Boxes"
Post by: TopHat on July 11, 2017, 04:52:46 pm
Is there any hope of us getting the war declaration postponed another turn? I doubt it, which is a shame because right now we are rather woefully under-equipped. As in, one machinegun per 200-man company and eight artillery pieces per 10,000-man division. Not to mention a complete lack of assault weapons of any sort. Doubled production this turn will help a little, but not much. So here's my first suggestion:
Beta: Find someone else to pin the blame on when we start suffering the inevitable heavy casualties. Because we're going to need as much political capital as we can get. ((How do you get the greek characters?))

More positively, here are some of my thoughts, though not thought through to the point of suggestions yet:

Spoiler: Production (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Engineering (click to show/hide)
Title: Re: The Glorious Design Bureau of the People II : 1922 "The art of Boxes"
Post by: Madman198237 on July 11, 2017, 07:55:51 pm
Honestly, as far as MTBs go, we ought to just find a way of increasing range, because the Italians deployed them from their bases to attack targets across the Mediterranean. And it worked, quite well. The element of surprise is a powerful thing, especially in naval warfare, where one or two naval torpedoes will destroy even the largest battleships.
Title: Re: The Glorious Design Bureau of the People II : 1921 "Preparations for War"
Post by: RAM on July 12, 2017, 04:14:21 am
I mad an incomplete tracker for filling out if anyone wants something like that...
I didn't see any production proposals?
A: Operation Induce Headache
3 (681 tonnes, 9 months)Revolutionary Destroyers
2 (119 tonnes, 2 months)M21 Torpedo Boats

20 (200 vehicle) mule cargo trucks
10 (100 vehicle) mule cargo trucks' in spare parts
100 (100 vehicle) Recon Balloons
9/12 (180 artillery) Dinosaur Rift Howitzers
110 (220 artillery) Cute Apple Mortars
4000 (200 small arms) Model 1921 Sidearm
100 (200 small arms) Model 1921 Machine Gun
? (400 small) PB-21 Pillbox (Resources distributed evenly to all variants.)

Feel free to copy/past whatever from this post...
Spoiler: proposal tracker (click to show/hide)

Spoiler: Votes for Traits (click to show/hide)
[/quote]
Title: Re: The Glorious Design Bureau of the People II : 1922 "The art of Boxes"
Post by: Aseaheru on July 12, 2017, 10:44:38 am
 Have a proposal tracker filled out, including all of Madman's unnumbered or lettered proposals. Also counter proposal for 2, namely SMG using our pistol round instead.
2.2: M23 "Paranoia's Debt" SMG; This proposed form of the Paranoia's Debt amounts to a larger form of the M21/22 pistol, using the same round, fire selector, and basic magazine shape but incorporating a heavier barrel, a folding wire stock, and larger double-stack magazines of no less than 25 rounds(40 rounds maximum)

 Voting for: 2.2, 4, 6, 7, 8, 9, A, B, α
 On Traits: Well-supplied, comms network, Camo, Casematte Variant; Cheap

Spoiler: proposal tracker (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Votes for Traits (click to show/hide)
Title: Re: The Glorious Design Bureau of the People II : 1922 "The art of Boxes"
Post by: Madman198237 on July 12, 2017, 11:14:10 am
This is kinda why I want to vote based on plans, because if we get a funny pattern/overlapping plans we might end up with some bona-fide weird design choices. Anyway, I'm going to dive into the chaos that is the tracker.

By the way, thank you Asea, for setting up this round's batch of lunacy.
Here's a set of formal proposals for my suggested designs, to keep things reasonably reasonable.


10. Scout Biplane: Using fabric-and-wood construction as well as a very lightweight engine, this small aircraft is capable of observing any thing the enemy is doing and then reporting back, and does it faster and further than an observation balloon ever could.

11. The Mule Truck could be a solid vehicle, but needs work. The noise, reliability, stability, and integrity issues are all solved by our now-more-experienced engineers. Also, their pay is going to mysteriously disappear if it's not fixed.

12. Our present bunkers will hopefully receive a large number of upgrades, and designing a larger variant with either 2 80mm cannons and 2 MGs or 1 160mm cannon and 4 MGs will capitalize on that.

13. Other nations have pioneered an "interrupter gear" assembly that allows machineguns to fire forwards in a plane. By engineering one of these for ourselves, we should be capable of achieving the same thing.

14. The M21 MG is a solid design, but needs a little improvement to bring it back up to its original design specifications, and so one of our teams will work on that this year.


Spoiler: proposal tracker (click to show/hide)



Spoiler: Votes for Traits (click to show/hide)
Title: Re: The Glorious Design Bureau of the People II : 1922 "The art of Boxes"
Post by: RAM on July 12, 2017, 02:34:03 pm
I can't speak for anyone else, but I have no objection to you putting up plans. I mean, goodness, I have been putting up production in plans since day 1. If you want to submit a partial production plan then go for it. Likewise, if you want a design plan I have no objection to that. I am unlikely to agree with it to such an extent that I would actually vote for it instead of the component parts, but I won't oppose you if you want to do such a thing.
Title: Re: The Glorious Design Bureau of the People II : 1922 "The art of Boxes"
Post by: Madman198237 on July 12, 2017, 02:42:38 pm
That's why I proposed a "Vote for plans" system rather than this----if everyone votes in plans, we can be sure of less lunacy in overall outcomes and more dedicated focus, while still preserving...well, most of the non-confusing aspects of this (Because you can just offer a proposal for changes to the plan, like a 1. Plan One and 1.1 Don't Do C, Do F Instead// but how about 2. Plan Two)
Title: Re: The Glorious Design Bureau of the People II : 1922 "The art of Boxes"
Post by: Aseaheru on July 12, 2017, 03:02:16 pm
 But that also requires every suggested plan to take up all the rounds capacity and every vote to be for an existent plan, and not part of one, otherwise parts of the plans will conflict and then everything gets aggravating to weed through. It is far, far easier to just work off of individually suggested parts.
Title: Re: The Glorious Design Bureau of the People II : 1922 "The art of Boxes"
Post by: Madman198237 on July 12, 2017, 03:04:45 pm
The point is that you can re-propose a plan if you are so inclined, and yes it adds additional work on one end, but it makes everything so much easier to parse on the average voter's end. Even on the not-so-average voter's end.
Title: Re: The Glorious Design Bureau of the People II : 1922 "The art of Boxes"
Post by: Aseaheru on July 12, 2017, 03:10:40 pm
 See comment about requiring the voters to submit plans requiring the utilization of all resources. I dont know about you, but planning out everything to be done for a turn is not something I typically wish to do, mostly because then its "AseaHeru and possibly one or two others suggests things then people vote" instead of "five or more people suggest things and vote on them".

 Plus you have things like person A liking half of one plan, but despising the rest of it, and then thus must put forward a plan that has what they like and replacements for what they dont, which they may be apathetic for or not have the time to write up".
Title: Re: The Glorious Design Bureau of the People II : 1922 "The art of Boxes"
Post by: RAM on July 12, 2017, 03:11:38 pm
But it makes a huge hassle for the average designer who just wants to make one design, and not 5, or more if we add more design groups... Basically nobody can submit a single design until someone has submitted a complete design plan, and even then they need to figure out which specific design they want to replace, when they may well be unwilling to replace any of the designeds of the appropriate size, so then they need to submit an extra design to replace the role of the design that they want to replace except suited to a different design team. It is a massive hassle to a game which is already having difficulty getting participation. I mean, just look at how long it takes to get a production plan most turns...
Title: Re: The Glorious Design Bureau of the People II : 1922 "The art of Boxes"
Post by: Madman198237 on July 12, 2017, 03:13:44 pm
I don't mean an all-inclusive plan (Necessarily), I mean you propose a set of designs, but you don't really care/know enough about production to propose a plan for factories, so someone else proposes a plan for production.

And eighty million other plans are proposed, and some of them are hybridizations or adaptations, but a person could easily read through them and go "Hey look, this plan has a defined goal and does what is necessary in my opinion. I'm voting for it." instead of what we have now, which looks like (A lot of the time) "Let's get this. And this sounds good. Hey, look at that!" and then we have no goal or direction...which isn't such an issue now, but as we get further in we're going to want that direction in designing new things.
Title: Re: The Glorious Design Bureau of the People II : 1922 "The art of Boxes"
Post by: Aseaheru on July 12, 2017, 03:15:21 pm
 Then the GM gets to go "Alright, these things won, but 3/4 of them contradict eachother inthat they require the same teams to do stuff in each one." Its not worth the hassle.
Title: Re: The Glorious Design Bureau of the People II : 1922 "The art of Boxes"
Post by: Madman198237 on July 12, 2017, 03:18:38 pm
Wait what?

I don't understand how that happens when every plan, if you choose to propose one, has to use the teams properly.
Title: Re: The Glorious Design Bureau of the People II : 1922 "The art of Boxes"
Post by: Aseaheru on July 12, 2017, 03:21:38 pm
You had just said that you did not need all-inclusive plans, and I game an example on why that's a bad plan if you are going for plans as opposed to individual suggestions filling allotted spaces.
Title: Re: The Glorious Design Bureau of the People II : 1922 "The art of Boxes"
Post by: Madman198237 on July 12, 2017, 03:26:28 pm
No, the idea was that a plan is proposed for research, as opposed to a plan needing to include industry, work force, and government functions as well.
Title: Re: The Glorious Design Bureau of the People II : 1922 "The art of Boxes"
Post by: RAM on July 12, 2017, 05:19:22 pm
Ase was just referring to pure design plans. Mad is just referring to pure deign plans. I suspect that Mad thinks that people are complaining about plans that simultaneously cover designs, production, and extras. While Ase thought that Mad was suggesting that people could propose partial plans that only cover a couple of designs, but Mad is actually insisting that all design plans use all design slots?

If a plan gets the sizes wrong and does small(s), s, s, medium(m), large(l). then the whole plan is invalid. If it were individual designs then they would just choose two of them and skip over the invalid design. So plans have a problem in that if there is a flaw, then the whole thing fails rather than a much more easily-handled single-design flaw.

And I think that it would make it worse for voters too. Instead of tracking a single design and its merits. You need to track a series of designs and their individual merits simultaneously and compare it to the combined value of another series of designs. The more things that you have to consider at once the more complex it is. Not to mention that it means that you spend proportionally more time referencing, because there are more things that need to be held in memory at once. ?Also it is likely to be less descriptive because the plans would rather not list the full list of items with their full names for every variation on the plan, and with a broader scope people are more likely to take issue with one part and propose an alternative.

 And then there is the issue that, assuming that the extra workload doesn't scare people away from making proposals, there would likely be far more proposals to look through. There are likely only two or three close-quarters weapons in a design phase. Maybe with a couple of variant proposals?  Lets say that you have three close weapons, three medium personnel weapons, three antitanks guns, and three aeroplanes. That is 12 proposals. If each of these is a plan, then we can have one of each and one extra, such as tow antitank guns or two medium weapons. Then we can have a plan for each combination. assuming one of each it is at a potential aaaa, aaab, aaac, aaba... 81 proposals, just because everyone has their favourite weapon in each category. Then we have a1A1x, aa1Ay, aa1Az, aa1Bx... a11Ax... a1AAx... and I am not inclined to calculate the totals but it is rather huge. Now, granted, not all of these proposals will be made, but the potential mess of plans when it ends up being a multiple choice with a dozen elements is immense. When each entry is a unique element, then it is more difficult to spam minor variations than it is when you can just slot out one design for another...

Also, I am a little dubious about whether 2.2 is really a variation and not a new design. The extremely pathetic round is sort of a consistent element of its design. It is based around the theory of having very low recoil and being very light, and having a long firing time. I am not actually complaining, I am happy to just leave things as they are, but I was finding it a bit awkward to just not mention anything when it seems that the outcome would be rather opposite as far as the submachinegun scale goes. I certainly believe that 2.2 could work, indeed, it is a safer bet than the basic 2, even if the 2 would be awesome if it works, it is just that 2.2 is about having a solid gun for close quarters, and 2 basic is about taking away the soldier's hesitation to fire, and as such they have fundamentally different design specifications. Still, as I said, things are cool as they are, I have no issues with 2.2 as it stands, I just tend to overanalyse these sorts of things and then feel bad if I don't say anything.
Title: Re: The Glorious Design Bureau of the People II : 1922 "The art of Boxes"
Post by: 3_14159 on July 15, 2017, 12:22:20 pm
In my opinion, we could probably combine advantages of both styles of voting by doing the following:
a) Design proposals are ordered by size.
b) Everybody has one vote per design team (at the moment, 2xS, 2xM, 1xL). The latter would force Asea to drop two small votes.

This should make what to vote for clearer, keep all choices easy to implement for 10ebbor10, and allow everybody to easily vote for a quasi-plan. Only question is how to order plans; for now, I'm keeping the same index.

Let me also vote for 2.2 (M23 SMG), 6 (M23 Grenade), M23 75mm mortar, 11 (Mule Redesign). I'm still thinking about a good large project.

For traits, I'm voting for Cheap, Camouflaged, Comm Network, and Well-Supplied for the bunker and cheap for the cannon.


With that, here's the reordered tracker:

Spoiler: proposal tracker (click to show/hide)



Spoiler: Votes for Traits (click to show/hide)
Title: Re: The Glorious Design Bureau of the People II : 1922 "The art of Boxes"
Post by: Aseaheru on July 15, 2017, 01:13:55 pm
 I think the mule is a bit of a waste of time working on it at this point. Its horribly broken, mayaswell work on a new design to do the job.
Title: Re: The Glorious Design Bureau of the People II : 1922 "The art of Boxes"
Post by: Madman198237 on July 15, 2017, 01:15:12 pm
?

No, it's better to FIX it, because that's easier than making a new one, by far.
Title: Re: The Glorious Design Bureau of the People II : 1922 "The art of Boxes"
Post by: Aseaheru on July 15, 2017, 01:18:38 pm
 Is it more work to replace it than to try to fix the horrific mess? At the state where the Mule is, I am of the view where fixing it is actually more work.
Title: Re: The Glorious Design Bureau of the People II : 1922 "The art of Boxes"
Post by: Madman198237 on July 15, 2017, 01:25:36 pm
It's always easier to work from a given design and known problems than to make a new design and then find the new problems.
Title: Re: The Glorious Design Bureau of the People II : 1922 "The art of Boxes"
Post by: Strongpoint on July 15, 2017, 02:23:13 pm
I see zero reason to put a machine gun on a scouting byplane. It won't do any strafing runs, neither it will dogfight. Why increase its cost?
Title: Re: The Glorious Design Bureau of the People II : 1922 "The art of Boxes"
Post by: NAV on July 15, 2017, 02:35:50 pm
Strong point there, Strongpoint. Sorry I'm sure you've heard that one before.
Machinegun shouldn't be on the scout plain.
Title: Re: The Glorious Design Bureau of the People II : 1922 "The art of Boxes"
Post by: Madman198237 on July 15, 2017, 02:52:23 pm
Well, it won't happen, as the machinegun is dependent on a vote that's not happening.

The machinegun is because minor strafing runs ARE a thing, and because if the enemy turns out to have some form of armed aircraft it won't hurt to be prepared. That said, since it's specifically stated to depend on the timed machinegun system, it won't happen and we don't need to worry about it. That said, the generic machinegun improvements would be very good to get, guys.
Title: Re: The Glorious Design Bureau of the People II : 1922 "The art of Boxes"
Post by: Strongpoint on July 15, 2017, 03:11:49 pm
Quote
The machinegun is because minor strafing runs ARE a thing, and because if the enemy turns out to have some form of armed aircraft it won't hurt to be prepared
We are talking about a very crude biplane here. The cost of installing machineguns is huge comparing to a very tiny benefit.

Title: Re: The Glorious Design Bureau of the People II : 1922 "The art of Boxes"
Post by: NAV on July 15, 2017, 04:42:52 pm
Technically you can add heavy steel plates to the prop instead of using an interruptor gear.
That leads to lower performance, heavy wear and tear, and less bullets reaching the enemy though.

But it did work for a while before interruptor was invented.
Title: Re: The Glorious Design Bureau of the People II : 1922 "The art of Boxes"
Post by: 3_14159 on July 16, 2017, 04:06:32 am
Is it more work to replace it than to try to fix the horrific mess? At the state where the Mule is, I am of the view where fixing it is actually more work.
This is actually a very good point.
To look at it more math-y, we know that the difficulty of the FAT is about -7. We know that flaws are fixed either by crits or by two successes per flaw. The Mule has four flaws, and we'd therefore need eight successes more than simply designing the FAT. Since all of our revision programs had a difficulty of at least -1, it will be more efficient to discard the Mule. However, I believe it is better to treat the FAT as a large project.

9.1: In addition, cargo can be transported in the generously-sized cargo area (which seats the weapon crew when towing a gun) or in a trailer. Large Project.

As for another medium project, how about an upgraded and up-rated 40mm cannon?
15: AC-23 "Flute"
The AC-23 shares the 40mm calibre with our already-existing 40mm autocannon, but not much more. It increases the muzzle velocity by using a longer barrel of 40 calibres and replaces the open-hopper feed system with a belt-fed system. The latter also solves the elevation issue. It is planned to be used as a defense against (and possibly for) torpedo boats and to defend against enemy planes. If successful, it should easily replace the 40mm cannons on our ships.


This changes my vote to 2.2 (M23 SMG), 6 (M23 Grenade), M23 75mm mortar, 15 (AC-23 40mm gun). 9.1 (FAT-23)

Trait vote remains at Cheap, Camouflaged, Comm Network, and Well-Supplied for the bunker and cheap for the cannon.

Lastly, before I think about a production proposals, can we assign PPs or only whole production lines?

Spoiler: proposal tracker (click to show/hide)



Spoiler: Votes for Traits (click to show/hide)
Title: Re: The Glorious Design Bureau of the People II : 1922 "The art of Boxes"
Post by: RAM on July 16, 2017, 04:21:32 am
I don't see why you can't just assigns some PPs. It would be kind of awkward right now, because there is not enough proposals to fill out the production, but if it were something obvious, like assigning a load from a single factory, especially if you put it as replacing a specific other item that could be built in such a factory... Well, it could probably just act as a universal patch to any production plan that was outvoted but more complete...

But the G.M. is free to just dump anything that isn't compatible with the vote winner if they feel like it, I mean, G.M. prerogative and all that, so... But hey, I am sure that i must have submitted something illegal at some point or other so why not just throw in your lot and try your luck. eh? eh?
Title: Re: The Glorious Design Bureau of the People II : 1922 "The art of Boxes"
Post by: NAV on July 16, 2017, 08:58:03 am
Do all the flaws need to be fixed? A truck with one or two flaws is still a functional usable truck.
Title: Re: The Glorious Design Bureau of the People II : 1922 "The art of Boxes"
Post by: somemildmanneredidiot on July 16, 2017, 09:22:04 am
I have very little idea of what's going on here plan wise and would love a recap.
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Voted for Cheap, ComNet, Rapid Construction, and Well Supplied for the bunker.
Title: Re: The Glorious Design Bureau of the People II : 1922 "The art of Boxes"
Post by: NAV on July 16, 2017, 10:30:04 am
I have very little idea of what's going on here plan wise and would love a recap.
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Voted for cheap, well supplied, comm net, and casematte.
Title: Re: The Glorious Design Bureau of the People II : 1922 "The art of Boxes"
Post by: RAM on July 16, 2017, 04:36:11 pm
{lane? Plan? Ain't no plan here!
But mostly we are just trying to fill out all the roles. I really need to reread all the proposals now but, ehh, I am hesitant to get another mortar, for example, because we have heavy bombardment and light bombardment and now what we really need is something precise and elegant to fill out our big guns and "mortar" doesn't say that to me. We still need an armoured vehicle, an aeroplane, ideally a fighter and a bomber and a scout. We more-or-less have heavy ships but could use something more definitive. Ain't got no subs... Need close-range stuff and direct fire explosives/artillery... And the Mosin is a solid weapon, but there is a reason all these design games always take the most boring option and start with an assault rifle... Plus we could use some logistics, artillery movers, a truck that doesn't rattle apart, some armed transports to fill out and protect our merchant fleet/transport our military materials. And, of course, we could try for an aircraft carrier, rocket artillery, antitank infantry weapons, antitank guns, sniper rifles... Really, we just need to fill out all of our basic essentials and then we can start working on improving stuff and taking our research in specific direction...

RAM Vote! 1, 2.1, 3, 4, 5, α, β, A, 10, 13, 15, Lower Weight, Casematte, Artillery, Cheap, Rapid, Well-supplied
I removed the (requires 1) from my SMG. I want to do the round separately, but as a combined action still works as far as I know.
I also fixed the names of some designs. They somehow got changed to M23, which was confusing. If we are going to be all identical about everything then we may as well just omit it entirely.
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Title: Re: The Glorious Design Bureau of the People II : 1922 "The art of Boxes"
Post by: Madman198237 on July 16, 2017, 05:36:19 pm
For the actual basics, I'd say: Sniper rifle, fixed truck, armored cars (To replace our nonexistent cavalry), semiauto battle rifle, infantry-portable MG (Revise the present one!), and a proper battleship (For this is an Arms Race, sort of, and naval arms races are the most famous)
Title: Re: The Glorious Design Bureau of the People II : 1922 "The art of Boxes"
Post by: Aseaheru on July 16, 2017, 06:11:38 pm
 Well, the "M23"s are just part of the name, just denoting the year. So, the Pandora's debt would still be called the Pandora's debt, or the M23 Pandora's Debt SMG, or the M23 SMG, or whatever.

 Currently, our only mortar is a short, short range weapon(its IRL counterpart had a range of about 600 yards), so we do need something to fill the gap between platoon level(where the M21 mortar would be positioned) and battalion level tube arty.
 I agree for the need for armored vehicles(I suggest buying some first, for an example of what can be done), likewise development of some form of fighter. Scouts are somewhat covered, although they are simple tethered designs and we likley will want to upgrade them at some point. Bombers are of a lower priority, in my view.
 We do require some form of assault weaponry, be it shotguns, grenade launchers, SMGs, or all of the above. Logistics, artillery tractors and trucks can be handled as one design. Snipers can be done simply by taking our rifle and dumping an optic on it, and eventually replacing it with something fed with a box magazine.